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What does America’s suburban/exurban economy possess in abundance? Among other resources, parking lots.

I’d probably have started with the idea of letting you get a haircut in the parking lot in front of your Fantastic Sam’s. In contrast, this dermatalogical thought experiment puts a little too much strip into “strip mall.”

The idea of moving much of the economy outdoors for the six warm months reminds me of Robert Heinlein’s 1951 sci-fi novel The Puppet Masters in which an alien invasion of pods that take up residence on your spine requires, requires the President to order mandatory nudism for all Americans all summer, which stabilizes the spread of the alien infestation but induces time tension as the heroes race to eradicate the pods before winter. (This plot twist had nothing to do with Heinlein’s personal nudist kink. It’s totally mandated by the logic of the story RAH made up.)

But, yeah, it seems reasonable to let indoor businesses in outdoor malls temporarily colonize their part of the parking lot in front of their storefront.

For example, Cheesecake Factory announced they weren’t going to pay rent. Okay, well now your rent lets you put tables out in the parking area in front of your restaurant.

In the meantime, the insides of the stores can be retrofitted with upgraded ventilation. (In general, I see a lot of upcoming work for blue collar workers making our structures less likely to be sites for the transmission of the virus.)

 
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  1. Setting up isolation wards, e.g., in parking lots, sports stadiums and deserted college dorms, separate from hospitals and current treatment facilities for ALL detected SARS-CoV-2 infected individuals would be and still is a good idea. It would effectively be ruthless triage, dooming many seriously ill people to almost certain death,* and seen as such, which is why it won’t happen. Too bad because current policies concentrate our first line providers of medical health care among the worst cases of Covid-19, virtually ensuring exposure to high viral loads, serious illness, and a higher than necessary chance of dying. Basically, the current hospitalization policies are on track to decimate and further demoralize our already insufficient and demoralized medical care providers. We will pay for this sooner or later.

    The policies we have now were the result of panicked reactions based on insufficient data. Our leaders and our public health systems have failed miserably. It’s worth remembering that back in the day, Fauci was one of those who refused for an extended period to acknowledge that AIDS/HIV was primarily a homosexual epidemic that spread very slightly into the general population through needle and blood sharing. He continued to downplay the role which homosexual promiscuity played in spreading HIV/AIDS. It was people like Fauci that kept San Francisco’s bath houses open and ensured the deaths of many thousands of those they claimed/thought to be protecting. People like him are engineering another human disaster. The libertarian crazies who oppose him go to the other extreme.

    As John Derbyshire wrote on another occasion, “We’re Doomed!”

    ————-
    * Although current drastic treatments of Covid-19 cases, e.g., the use of respirators, may be worse than no treatment in many cases. There is an extraordinarily high death rate among Covid-18 patients receiving ventilator treatment, miuch higher than the rates usually associated with ventilators. No one is sure why.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson Three

    As John Derbyshire wrote on another occasion, “We’re Doomed!”
     
    Eisenhower before D-Day, "The tide has turned! The free men of the world are marching together to Victory!" Ceteris paribus, John Derbyshire's message before D-Day: "You're doomed!"

    John Derbyshire - the living, breathing realization of Aliens' Private Hudson for the kingdom of iSteve.
    , @Triumph104

    the use of respirators, may be worse than no treatment in many cases. There is an extraordinarily high death rate among Covid-18 patients receiving ventilator treatment, miuch higher than the rates usually associated with ventilators. No one is sure why.
     
    Ventilators do not address the average patients' severe nutritional deficiencies nor do they cure Covid-19. The gastric feeding tube formula for ICU ventilator patients will generally consist of corn maltodextrin, sugar, or fructose, or corn syrup, protein powder, and a daily requirement of vitamins and minerals.

    Due to the lack of PPE, patients may be getting reinfected or picking up other hospital-born illnesses from healthcare workers.

    Some doctors are advocating that patients receive intravenous feedings (parenteral), which are more risky than gastric feedings (enteral), in order to protect healthcare workers.


    Both the Society of Critical Care Medicine and ASPEN will be releasing COVID-19 nutrition recommendations this week, which he noted will include discussion of early conversion to parenteral nutrition if the enteral mode requires significantly more health care worker exposure.

    ”I never thought I’d say that,” Dr. Martindale said. This strategy, however, should decrease the need to check patients’ bellies, place distal feeding tubes and other potential routes of exposure for health care providers.
     

    https://www.idse.net/Covid-19/Article/04-20/Optimizing-Nutrition-for-Critically-Ill-COVID-19-Patients/57837
  2. More navel gazing nonsense.

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
  3. ‘… In general, I see a lot of upcoming work for blue collar workers making our structures less likely to be sites for the transmission of the virus…’

    Since it’s virtually an imaginary disease, can’t we just imagine the upgrades have been done?

    It would save a lot of work.

    • Agree: MikeatMikedotMike
    • LOL: TomSchmidt
    • Replies: @Rosie

    Since it’s virtually an imaginary disease, can’t we just imagine the upgrades have been done?
     
    I dunno about that. I do think it's fairly clear now that it could have been a helluva lot worse, but then that's the whole point. The next thing may well be be helluva lot worse, and this experience has brought that reality home to people, so I think Steve is probably right about the upgrades.
    , @Mike1
    How about you volunteer to catch it and report in real time the imaginary effects?

    This IQ test being administered to the entire world is an interesting real life experiment. The dumb are really self identifying and I assume will suffer a lot more.

  4. You know, this is such a beautiful day. I don’t know why we don’t operate outside more often.

  5. Amusing, but impractical. In the:

    — South, 90 degree heat plus 90% humidity. Plus aerial invasion — mosquitos, horse flies, and other larger more unpleasant flying critters.
    — North, being outdoors in February does not seem like a winning idea.

    Having about outdoor deck for use when weather is pleasant is one thing. Trying to move business outdoors on a year-round basis is problematic.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    Yes, moving stuff outside would be pretty great in southern CA, but in large swathes of the country it's not that feasible.

    For example, my ancestral village in Sioux County, IA, had ideal al fresco business weather just a week ago, with sun and nice mild temperatures in the 70s and low 80s. But on Easter Sunday they had six inches of snow, with winds of 30-40 mph, and it'll be in the teens there overnight. It'll soon be too hot for comfort out on blacktop or bare concrete. And even on the handful of days in the year there with nice moderate temperatures, it's often pretty damn windy.

    I hate to keep repeating myself, but keeping businesses going indoors and still avoiding COVID spread does not seem to be impossible -- that is, if everybody's masked, and observing at least minimal social distancing.

    Hong Kong's shops and most restaurants have not shut at all this year. We've been out many times for shopping and dining, and so have lots and lots of other people. Like the MTR, many shops have been very busy, even crowded, in the past few weeks, but there is no real evidence that anybody's picking up the virus in these conditions.

  6. I did something similar yesterday.

    I went hiking with some family members on a nearby bike trail. On the way back, we always like to sit in the outside tables at a local fast food joint. So we went there yesterday, ordered some food, and, with their blessing, ate outside at their tables.

    Yes, they should have wiped down the tables between visits. It was probably a health hazard for us to eat there. But it felt good to eat at a restaurant for the first time in weeks.

  7. No sign of Elon Musk gearing up production of service sector robots along the lines of C3PO? In Alfred Bester’s classic sci-fi nove “The Stars My Destination” the chief of the Presteign Industrial clan has a robot bartender.

    Who does the hair for the TV anchors and presenters just now? Or the politicians and medical experts who appear well coiffed as they insist on social distancing?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    The TV bimbos and mimbos are ESSENTIAL PEOPLE. They can get their hair done by getting special drivers to take them to special hairdressers, all with ESSENTIAL PEOPLE WAIVERS.

    Staying inside and getting no business or personal errands done is for the little people. ESSENTIAL WAIVERS are one of the perks of being in outer party. Inner party member don't need to worry about ANY of this shit.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    More TV anchors are working from home now, with some even using child labor for their hair and makeup, reducing the production value differences between the MSM and YouTube streamers.

    https://twitter.com/adsteel/status/1242819543053094918?s=20
  8. Speaking of different ventilation techniques, I like those public restrooms, where there’s no outer door, so you don’t have to touch the handle to open it. I presume they have negative air pressure or something. I wonder what the cost differential is.

    • Replies: @Daniel Williams
    Some places have a sort of hook that allows you to open the door with your forearm.
  9. requires the President to order mandatory nudism for all Americans all summer, which stabilizes the spread of the alien infestation but induces time tension as the heroes race to eradicate the pods before winter

    If you thought going to Wal-Mart was difficult before, now you will have to cauterize your sensitivity to the beautiful with a red-hot branding iron pre-arrival (and possibly more than once to achieve the necessary shielding).

    Some things can never be recovered.

  10. The idea of moving much of the economy outdoors for the six warm months reminds me of Robert Heinlein’s 1951 sci-fi novel The Puppet Masters in which an alien invasion of pods that take up residence on your spine requires, requires the President to order mandatory nudism for all Americans all summer, which stabilizes the spread of the alien infestation but induces time tension as the heroes race to eradicate the pods before winter. (This plot twist had nothing to do with Heinlein’s personal nudist kink. It’s totally mandated by the logic of the story RAH made up.)

    Hey, they first tried a halfway measure (Schedule Bareback, everybody goes topless), but that wasn’t sufficient. For the good of the nation, they had to go all-in with Schedule Suntan…..

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    And I seem to recall, at the end, everyone had gotten so used to nudity, they kept it up.
  11. The plexiglass solution is more like along with pick up and delivery ordering. Buildings can be cleaned easily enough with uvc lights and ozone. Everyone will be wearing face masks too no doubt.

    I’m surprised you’re not very good at this but, well, you can’t be good at everything.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    The plexiglass solution is more like along with pick up and delivery ordering. Buildings can be cleaned easily enough with uvc lights and ozone. Everyone will be wearing face masks too no doubt.

    I’m surprised you’re not very good at this but, well, you can’t be good at everything.
     
    Agree. I'd call this a complete whiff. Rare for Steve.

    We don't have to run crimped, kludgy businesses. Mask up in indoor public spaces (and crowded outdoor ones) and you're done. Businesses could do temperature checks and/or symptom checks as well to keep out the sick. (They certainly should be able to boot anyone they like ... but then they always should have been able to do that. "Civil rights" law is an abomination.)

    Masks and airborne transmission drops to noise. As you mention UV can disinfect public touch surfaces like checkout lanes. These aren't hard problems.

    The only real problem businesses are where people close together, with their mouths open is sort of the point--bars, restaurants and most of all clubs.

    One can regulate that ... or go with "use at your own risk".
    , @adreadline

    The plexiglass solution is more like along with pick up and delivery ordering. Buildings can be cleaned easily enough with uvc lights and ozone. Everyone will be wearing face masks too no doubt.
     
    About this thing of cleaning buildings all around and all the time with far ultraviolet or ozone... some time ago I wondered -- though I'll credit commenters Fun and Buzz Mohawk of mentioning it in the context of overuse of hand sanitizer -- if there is a significant chance this would enable the rise of UV(C)- or ozone- resistant pathogenic bacteria? Or that was already looked into and there is no significant risk (as in, it only happens with antibiotics -- but why? Is it because of their specificity?), or if there is, it's compensated by the benefits? Yes, rinsing stuff out with soapy water is less cost-efficient than doing the sterilization with UV or ozone, I guess, (is it?) and there's a pandemic going on which warrants more than mundane methods, but after the worst is over, which might be soon, would it be worth it, in the long term, to implement UV lights and ozone generators in every public building?
  12. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Setting up isolation wards, e.g., in parking lots, sports stadiums and deserted college dorms, separate from hospitals and current treatment facilities for ALL detected SARS-CoV-2 infected individuals would be and still is a good idea. It would effectively be ruthless triage, dooming many seriously ill people to almost certain death,* and seen as such, which is why it won't happen. Too bad because current policies concentrate our first line providers of medical health care among the worst cases of Covid-19, virtually ensuring exposure to high viral loads, serious illness, and a higher than necessary chance of dying. Basically, the current hospitalization policies are on track to decimate and further demoralize our already insufficient and demoralized medical care providers. We will pay for this sooner or later.

    The policies we have now were the result of panicked reactions based on insufficient data. Our leaders and our public health systems have failed miserably. It's worth remembering that back in the day, Fauci was one of those who refused for an extended period to acknowledge that AIDS/HIV was primarily a homosexual epidemic that spread very slightly into the general population through needle and blood sharing. He continued to downplay the role which homosexual promiscuity played in spreading HIV/AIDS. It was people like Fauci that kept San Francisco's bath houses open and ensured the deaths of many thousands of those they claimed/thought to be protecting. People like him are engineering another human disaster. The libertarian crazies who oppose him go to the other extreme.

    As John Derbyshire wrote on another occasion, "We're Doomed!"

    -------------
    * Although current drastic treatments of Covid-19 cases, e.g., the use of respirators, may be worse than no treatment in many cases. There is an extraordinarily high death rate among Covid-18 patients receiving ventilator treatment, miuch higher than the rates usually associated with ventilators. No one is sure why.

    As John Derbyshire wrote on another occasion, “We’re Doomed!”

    Eisenhower before D-Day, “The tide has turned! The free men of the world are marching together to Victory!” Ceteris paribus, John Derbyshire’s message before D-Day: “You’re doomed!”

    John Derbyshire – the living, breathing realization of Aliens’ Private Hudson for the kingdom of iSteve.

  13. Dermatology, like a lot of medical visits, can be done virtually. I got an email offering that from my dermatologist (i.e., the dermatologist I’ve gone to a couple of times over the last decade) last week.

    The big limiting factor in medicine was physicians weren’t getting paid if you didn’t go into the office, but now they can be.

    That the dermatologist’s office resorted to sending that email out suggests the scope of the economic contraction we’re in the middle of is simply enormous.

  14. My guess is that with Central Banks taking over the functions of financial markets formerly done by the Steve Schwartzmans, Larry Finks, Ray Dalio’s of the world. there is going to be a lot less need for financial services. We also don’t need to let them skim a few billion off the top to create a market for junk bonds, Commercial Paper and MBS. Central Banks are going to set the price and Central Bankers make under $1 million per year not several billion.

    OTOH we are still going to need blue collar workers who can fix your air conditioning. clear a clogged drain because you ran out of toilet paper and tried to use paper towels or rags as a substitute and fix a leak on your roof.

    There is going to be sea change in wage rates for those who do and those who speculate. Its really going be positive outcome when Princeton economists teaching their courses on line make less than a supermarket employee stocking shelves at a Kroger

    • Agree: Another Canadian
  15. This plot twist had nothing to do with Heinlein’s personal nudist kink. It’s totally mandated by the logic of the story RAH made up.

    There was no nudity in the 1994 adaptation. Compare that to 1954’s Garden of Eden:

    • Replies: @syonredux

    There was no nudity in the 1994 adaptation.
     
    ....Which greatly disappointed 14-year old me back in '94. I was a fan of Julie Warner's epic nude scene in Doc Hollywood and was looking forward to seeing more....
  16. Anonymous[281] • Disclaimer says:

    Wow the NYC death numbers are crashing.

    Raoult HCQ regimen is saving lives of the elderly and obese and diabetics.

    Imagine the paltry death toll if all of the fudge was stripped out of the data.

    Paradoxically the emptied out hospitals are desperate for cash. They are extremely motivated to MARK IT DOWN COVID. Covid-19 cases means guaranteed fed reimbursement.

    Outrageous that people are being harassed fined $$$ for being outside in parks and going to church …. meanwhile the subways keep running. Airlines keep flying.

    At least there was a great video today from the Queen of England. I’m not a fan of monarchy but she is amazing at 93(!)…

    • Replies: @Hail

    motivated to MARK IT DOWN COVID. Covid-19 cases means guaranteed fed reimbursement.
     
    https://hailtoyou.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/the-coronavirus-hysteria-pandemic-2019-vs-2020-diagnoses.jpg

    "The good news is, we've cured cancer." -- Corona Apocalypse survivor
    , @jim jones
    God Bless Her Majesty:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2klmuggOElE
  17. If it’s all about breathing other people’s air, which others have provided good reasons to believe it is, why isn’t sharing aeroplanes a typical super-spreader event?

    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing from exercise, with shouting, singing etc. Maybe we need to keep calm and carry on.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing from exercise, with shouting, singing etc.

    I'm not going to the opera for awhile.

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Harold, the planes are running 5 to 20% of capacity. They are getting fogged at the hubs and on the overnights. The air flows from the gaspers, above the bins, and sometimes from the sidewall floor, generally toward the back where the outflow valves are. You'll be fine - sit in the front, but not right next to the flight attendants' jumpseats.

    This BS about aircraft having only recirc. air has got to be stopped. A Captain on a flight 2 weeks back explained it to the passengers before the flight. Air comes in through the ram air opening, gets heated from bleed air from the engines' compressor sections, and then mixed to get good temperature for the cabin. As I wrote if flows out of the outflow valves in a "controlled-leak" fashion to keep the pressure per the pressurization "schedule".
  18. Wow, a medical procedure performed out of doors in a tent on a field. What about germs, they are like giant viruses.

    Dogs poop outside. Billions of birds literally rain poop from the skies. Bugs like to eat poop and pick up germs and buzz around your face. Breezes blow and sweep up dried poop powder and blow it into your face. There’s a reason disease rates were much higer in the 19th cent, early 20th.

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    We’ve reached the portion of our program where we need to do something to save face for the people who are just now realizing “it’s just the flu, bro” isn’t ironic. Except for Fauci. He should be shot to Mars to study epidemics there.
  19. The local public school system has dinked with the WiFi in many buildings to increase coverage of parking lots. The work around for K – 12 students with poor home connectivity is now to drive students to school, just stay in the parking lot for work that requires Internet.

    Not sure how that’s working out so far.

  20. Anonymous[281] • Disclaimer says:

    Too bad we can’t get any treatment reports from VIPs who get sick. The singer Pink to Prince Charles to Rand Paul to Boris Johnson to Tom Hanks to Sen Klobuchar husband et al.

    OMERTA.

    Rand Paul case is just plain weird. Whatever dude.

    As far as I’m concerned the bizarre silence surrounding the treatment of most every high profile case tells you all you need to know. Can’t give any momentum to Trump and his “#trumppills” ….

    Twitter rumors say the press corp has been on preventative hydroxy for weeks while they simultaneously keep accusing Trump of peddling snake oil. Sounds totally demented and therefore likely to be true. They’re “frontline soldiers” dontcha know……

  21. @Harold
    If it’s all about breathing other people’s air, which others have provided good reasons to believe it is, why isn’t sharing aeroplanes a typical super-spreader event?

    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing from exercise, with shouting, singing etc. Maybe we need to keep calm and carry on.

    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing from exercise, with shouting, singing etc.

    I’m not going to the opera for awhile.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing ...
     
    Mouth breathing by the victim may also play a significant role as the natural filtering mechanisms of the nasal cavities is short-circuited. This in turn could lead to a significantly higher viral load being absorbed at the outset.

    The higher initial load may overwhelm the body's initial (non-specific) defenses, and could also shorten the period until max load is reached by 2-3 days, thus depriving the body of valuable time to build up targeted anti-virus responses.

    High-decibel parties with dancing, shouting etc. generally involve a lot of mouth-breathing, even by those who don't themselves shout or sing.

    , @sondjata
    Disagree on the exercise hypothesis.

    The data, ventilator use, clearly shows that lack of lung capacity to move massive [relatively speaking) amounts of air is part of the problem. Hence the mortality rates of obese and people with CV issues.

    So why did the choir members get sick? same reason the subway riders and medical professionals got sick: dosage (same air for extended periods of time).

    Secondly I've notice a pattern (albeit anectdotal) that many symptoms occur "in the morning" as in " I woke up and my throat was...". When we sleep we move very little air which may allow pathogens time to get deep into the lungs without the pressure of exhaling deeply.

    Also. Nose breathing. If you are "out of shape" you probably mouth breath which is not the optimal way to breath.

    https://lifespa.com/15-benefits-nose-breathing-exercise/

    https://105b31079a1ba381f52e-ac2ec5114feb632a1114f20df0e72453.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/Page/56d987e0-d130-48cf-97f0-08840ad284e6/the-health-benefits-of-nose-breathing.pdf
    , @Harold
    Laughing might be bad too. The puritans were right; no laughing, no dancing, no singing…
  22. @Reg Cæsar

    This plot twist had nothing to do with Heinlein’s personal nudist kink. It’s totally mandated by the logic of the story RAH made up.
     
    There was no nudity in the 1994 adaptation. Compare that to 1954's Garden of Eden:


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n2DdmNvPOuc

    There was no nudity in the 1994 adaptation.

    ….Which greatly disappointed 14-year old me back in ’94. I was a fan of Julie Warner’s epic nude scene in Doc Hollywood and was looking forward to seeing more….

  23. Fwiw, my wife and I have been avoiding all enclosed spaces that don’t belong to us. Haven’t been inside a store or other public indoor space in weeks and weeks. We’re on the CA coast, so we’re also hoping the fact that the area gets swept and cleansed by ocean breezes every day is working in our favor.

    • Replies: @Hail

    we’re also hoping the fact that the area gets swept and cleansed by ocean breezes every day is working in our favor
     
    Since time immemorial, we humans of northern climes have known that spring's mild temperatures are the sign of the full retreat of cold and flu viruses. This is one of the secular parts to the wonderful Easter celebration, the resurrection of spring, the final end of winter.

    More recently it has been discovered and demonstrated that humidity plays a role in virus infectivity, as follows:
    _
    https://hailtoyou.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/influenza-virus-infectivity-by-humidity-percentage.png
    .
    This finding (link to paper) has it that if your weather report calls for humidity above 40%, you're in much better shape, all else equal, than at <40% humidity.

    (This might be pretty academic, though, because most of the places we are likely to have contact with viruses are in climate-controlled conditions, not outside, I would think. But it can't hurt.)

  24. Anon[194] • Disclaimer says:

    The theft problem would get out of control by thieves running by and snatching and grabbing, and most retailers don’t want all the extra hassle of moving their entire stock outdoors at opening and back indoors at night. No do retailers want to mad-dash their entire stock indoors every time a rain storm arrives that might ruin it, or set up display stands again every time a big wind blows through.

    Buildings exist for a reason.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    Lack of shoot to kill on thieves and more importantly, "activists".
  25. @Cortes
    No sign of Elon Musk gearing up production of service sector robots along the lines of C3PO? In Alfred Bester’s classic sci-fi nove “The Stars My Destination” the chief of the Presteign Industrial clan has a robot bartender.

    Who does the hair for the TV anchors and presenters just now? Or the politicians and medical experts who appear well coiffed as they insist on social distancing?

    The TV bimbos and mimbos are ESSENTIAL PEOPLE. They can get their hair done by getting special drivers to take them to special hairdressers, all with ESSENTIAL PEOPLE WAIVERS.

    Staying inside and getting no business or personal errands done is for the little people. ESSENTIAL WAIVERS are one of the perks of being in outer party. Inner party member don’t need to worry about ANY of this shit.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    When all this is done, we will all of us have learned whether we are ESSENTIAL or UNESSENTIAL.
    , @Stan Adams
    Yeah, but their jobs are really stressful. Diane Sawyer always needed a big glass of wine and a bottle of pills just to make it through the newscast:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr1eEGXTZ4Q

    Recently I found some footage of George W. Bush getting ready to deliver his speech announcing the beginning of the Iraq War. Ultimately, the president is just another actor putting on just another show:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKp1a8Opgs0
  26. @Colin Wright
    '... In general, I see a lot of upcoming work for blue collar workers making our structures less likely to be sites for the transmission of the virus...'

    Since it's virtually an imaginary disease, can't we just imagine the upgrades have been done?

    It would save a lot of work.

    Since it’s virtually an imaginary disease, can’t we just imagine the upgrades have been done?

    I dunno about that. I do think it’s fairly clear now that it could have been a helluva lot worse, but then that’s the whole point. The next thing may well be be helluva lot worse, and this experience has brought that reality home to people, so I think Steve is probably right about the upgrades.

  27. @songbird
    Speaking of different ventilation techniques, I like those public restrooms, where there's no outer door, so you don't have to touch the handle to open it. I presume they have negative air pressure or something. I wonder what the cost differential is.

    Some places have a sort of hook that allows you to open the door with your forearm.

    • Replies: @jsm
    Why can't we just do more with our feet?
    Step on a pedal to flush the toilet, step on a pedal to turn on the sink water, step on a weighted trigger to trigger automatic door openers and touch nothing? All the germs on the bottom of your shoes, slip them off with your other foot, leave your shoes on the entry mat, never touch anything?
  28. I hung out with some Mexican neighbors outside yesterday. I felt guilty about it this morning, but after being stuck inside with my wife for the last three weeks I couldn’t really take it anymore. We ate fresh oysters from Lummi Island and drank a lot of beer. We kept our distance and used our own cups and plates, but I’m sure there was some risk.

    If I get sick I won’t blame myself. I’m only human after all.

  29. @Harold
    If it’s all about breathing other people’s air, which others have provided good reasons to believe it is, why isn’t sharing aeroplanes a typical super-spreader event?

    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing from exercise, with shouting, singing etc. Maybe we need to keep calm and carry on.

    Harold, the planes are running 5 to 20% of capacity. They are getting fogged at the hubs and on the overnights. The air flows from the gaspers, above the bins, and sometimes from the sidewall floor, generally toward the back where the outflow valves are. You’ll be fine – sit in the front, but not right next to the flight attendants’ jumpseats.

    This BS about aircraft having only recirc. air has got to be stopped. A Captain on a flight 2 weeks back explained it to the passengers before the flight. Air comes in through the ram air opening, gets heated from bleed air from the engines’ compressor sections, and then mixed to get good temperature for the cabin. As I wrote if flows out of the outflow valves in a “controlled-leak” fashion to keep the pressure per the pressurization “schedule”.

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    When the lockdowns end, if the lockdowns end, are we going back to the system that if you are coughing and sniffling that you are going ahead with your flight because the airline won't allow you to cancel with out a signed note from Dr. Fauci himself?

    A logical thing is to keep people spreading stuff, any stuff, off of planes, but will airlines go along with this change?
  30. Anon[194] • Disclaimer says:

    Fauci just went on CNN and attacked Trump after Pence told him he couldn’t appear there.

    It looks like someone from the Dems, Pelosi or Schiff or Schumer, talked with Fauci behind the scenes and said, “Doc, do us a favor. Go on CNN and attack Trump. Provoke him into firing you. See, we’ve already set up this committee to investigate Trump’s handing of the Covid-19. What we need to impeach him again is to get him to fire you. We’ll pounce on that. Go ahead, provoke him. We’ll pay you off big.”

    Trump is being set up, and he needs to avoid this. What he needs to do is transfer Fauci over to something harmless, and just not rehire him after the election.

  31. OFF TOPIC —

    British motor racing legend Sir Stirling Moss has died at the age of 90 following a long illness.

    He is widely regarded as one of the greatest Formula 1 drivers of all time, even though he did not win the World Championship.

    Moss retired from public life in January 2018 because of ongoing health problems.

    “It was one lap too many, he just closed his eyes,” said his wife Lady Moss.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    The Washington Post has a pretty good obituary.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/stirling-moss-f1-driver-known-as-one-of-the-best-behind-the-wheel-dies-at-90/2020/04/12/91f03b9c-7cd3-11ea-9040-68981f488eed_story.html
  32. @Anonymous
    Wow the NYC death numbers are crashing.

    Raoult HCQ regimen is saving lives of the elderly and obese and diabetics.

    Imagine the paltry death toll if all of the fudge was stripped out of the data.

    Paradoxically the emptied out hospitals are desperate for cash. They are extremely motivated to MARK IT DOWN COVID. Covid-19 cases means guaranteed fed reimbursement.

    Outrageous that people are being harassed fined $$$ for being outside in parks and going to church .... meanwhile the subways keep running. Airlines keep flying.

    At least there was a great video today from the Queen of England. I'm not a fan of monarchy but she is amazing at 93(!)...

    motivated to MARK IT DOWN COVID. Covid-19 cases means guaranteed fed reimbursement.

    “The good news is, we’ve cured cancer.” — Corona Apocalypse survivor

  33. Anonymous[260] • Disclaimer says:

    1/ We need to find ways to allow society to function and yet keep R0 below 1. One key part of that is to avoid breathing in air that others have exhaled.

    What is the evidence that people contract the Wuhan virus from breathing in air that others have exhaled. (All air has been exhaled by others.)

  34. @Cortes
    No sign of Elon Musk gearing up production of service sector robots along the lines of C3PO? In Alfred Bester’s classic sci-fi nove “The Stars My Destination” the chief of the Presteign Industrial clan has a robot bartender.

    Who does the hair for the TV anchors and presenters just now? Or the politicians and medical experts who appear well coiffed as they insist on social distancing?

    More TV anchors are working from home now, with some even using child labor for their hair and makeup, reducing the production value differences between the MSM and YouTube streamers.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    Looks like a variation on the “Celebrities in the Trenches” theme we all know and love. Each example should have the “Annie” tune “Tomorrow”.
  35. Hail says: • Website
    @Paleo Retiree
    Fwiw, my wife and I have been avoiding all enclosed spaces that don't belong to us. Haven't been inside a store or other public indoor space in weeks and weeks. We're on the CA coast, so we're also hoping the fact that the area gets swept and cleansed by ocean breezes every day is working in our favor.

    we’re also hoping the fact that the area gets swept and cleansed by ocean breezes every day is working in our favor

    Since time immemorial, we humans of northern climes have known that spring’s mild temperatures are the sign of the full retreat of cold and flu viruses. This is one of the secular parts to the wonderful Easter celebration, the resurrection of spring, the final end of winter.

    More recently it has been discovered and demonstrated that humidity plays a role in virus infectivity, as follows:
    _.
    This finding (link to paper) has it that if your weather report calls for humidity above 40%, you’re in much better shape, all else equal, than at <40% humidity.

    (This might be pretty academic, though, because most of the places we are likely to have contact with viruses are in climate-controlled conditions, not outside, I would think. But it can't hurt.)

  36. Great idea, Steve. Unfortunately our wise leaders seem to be heading in the opposite direction and are increasingly closing whatever outdoor spaces people are enjoying. So it seems like a long shot.

    • Replies: @Hail
    Is the Mayor of LA still handing out cash rewards for "snitching" on neighbors engaged in flagrant stay-at-home violations?

    “You know the old expression about snitches. Well, in this case, snitches get rewards,” Garcetti said.
     
    We've somehow slipped into a Twilight Zone episode, and not a very good one.
  37. @Dave Pinsen
    More TV anchors are working from home now, with some even using child labor for their hair and makeup, reducing the production value differences between the MSM and YouTube streamers.

    https://twitter.com/adsteel/status/1242819543053094918?s=20

    Looks like a variation on the “Celebrities in the Trenches” theme we all know and love. Each example should have the “Annie” tune “Tomorrow”.

  38. @Hippopotamusdrome
    Wow, a medical procedure performed out of doors in a tent on a field. What about germs, they are like giant viruses.

    Dogs poop outside. Billions of birds literally rain poop from the skies. Bugs like to eat poop and pick up germs and buzz around your face. Breezes blow and sweep up dried poop powder and blow it into your face. There's a reason disease rates were much higer in the 19th cent, early 20th.

    We’ve reached the portion of our program where we need to do something to save face for the people who are just now realizing “it’s just the flu, bro” isn’t ironic. Except for Fauci. He should be shot to Mars to study epidemics there.

  39. @Daniel Williams
    Some places have a sort of hook that allows you to open the door with your forearm.

    Why can’t we just do more with our feet?
    Step on a pedal to flush the toilet, step on a pedal to turn on the sink water, step on a weighted trigger to trigger automatic door openers and touch nothing? All the germs on the bottom of your shoes, slip them off with your other foot, leave your shoes on the entry mat, never touch anything?

    • Replies: @ziggurat
    A few years ago, I was in the bathroom of a restaurant in Italy. I could not figure out how to turn on the sink water. Ahhh, but then I saw the pedal. And I thought "that's smart". But I've never seen that anywhere else in my life.
  40. @Jack Armstrong
    OFF TOPIC —

    British motor racing legend Sir Stirling Moss has died at the age of 90 following a long illness.

    He is widely regarded as one of the greatest Formula 1 drivers of all time, even though he did not win the World Championship.

    Moss retired from public life in January 2018 because of ongoing health problems.

    "It was one lap too many, he just closed his eyes," said his wife Lady Moss.
     
    • Thanks: Jack Armstrong
  41. But will there be food in the stores?

    The latest from Karl Denninger:
    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238925

    Told You So: HERE COME FOOD SHORTAGES!

    CHICAGO (Reuters) – Smithfield Foods, the world’s biggest pork processor, said on Sunday it will shut a U.S. plant indefinitely due to a rash of coronavirus cases among employees and warned the country was moving “perilously close to the edge” in supplies for grocers.

    Slaughterhouse shutdowns are disrupting the U.S. food supply chain, crimping availability of meat at retail stores and leaving farmers without outlets for their livestock.

    You cannot stock grocery shelves if there is no plant running to stock them with.

    The hog does not stop growing if you don’t harvest it; it continues to require feed and for its waste to be removed yet there’s no money coming in to fund either the feed or waste removal since the plant to process said pig into pork chops and bacon is closed and thus the hog cannot be sold.

    We are days to weeks away from something important breaking in the supply chains and there is no way for any of us, myself included, to know in advance which will be the critical piece in a supply chain that breaks and causes non-availability of life-critical items — and that supply chain will not be able to be restarted for weeks if not months.

    Oh by the way, if you think “lockdowns” and “shelter in place” orders work — no they don’t. Here’s Sweden and US, both “R” values (actual transmission rates) — this isn’t a model projection it’s off the actual published case rates so it is factual from numbers of positive tests. Note that both Sweden and the US converged to the same place and Sweden did not issue any lockdown orders.

    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?get_gallery=7957

    I don’t care if you’re scared of the virus. We either kill the lockdowns right now, today, or they’re going to kill us at a rate far exceeding what the virus could have ever done.

    • Replies: @AnonAnon
    Smithfield is owned by a Chinese company. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out their outbreak was due to travel by Chinese workers, much like northern Italy.
  42. @vinny
    Great idea, Steve. Unfortunately our wise leaders seem to be heading in the opposite direction and are increasingly closing whatever outdoor spaces people are enjoying. So it seems like a long shot.

    Is the Mayor of LA still handing out cash rewards for “snitching” on neighbors engaged in flagrant stay-at-home violations?

    “You know the old expression about snitches. Well, in this case, snitches get rewards,” Garcetti said.

    We’ve somehow slipped into a Twilight Zone episode, and not a very good one.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Some of the snitches are going to get both stitches and a reward. No prizes for guessing whether or not the reward will be worth it.
  43. @jsm
    Why can't we just do more with our feet?
    Step on a pedal to flush the toilet, step on a pedal to turn on the sink water, step on a weighted trigger to trigger automatic door openers and touch nothing? All the germs on the bottom of your shoes, slip them off with your other foot, leave your shoes on the entry mat, never touch anything?

    A few years ago, I was in the bathroom of a restaurant in Italy. I could not figure out how to turn on the sink water. Ahhh, but then I saw the pedal. And I thought “that’s smart”. But I’ve never seen that anywhere else in my life.

  44. @miss marple
    The plexiglass solution is more like along with pick up and delivery ordering. Buildings can be cleaned easily enough with uvc lights and ozone. Everyone will be wearing face masks too no doubt.

    I'm surprised you're not very good at this but, well, you can't be good at everything.

    The plexiglass solution is more like along with pick up and delivery ordering. Buildings can be cleaned easily enough with uvc lights and ozone. Everyone will be wearing face masks too no doubt.

    I’m surprised you’re not very good at this but, well, you can’t be good at everything.

    Agree. I’d call this a complete whiff. Rare for Steve.

    We don’t have to run crimped, kludgy businesses. Mask up in indoor public spaces (and crowded outdoor ones) and you’re done. Businesses could do temperature checks and/or symptom checks as well to keep out the sick. (They certainly should be able to boot anyone they like … but then they always should have been able to do that. “Civil rights” law is an abomination.)

    Masks and airborne transmission drops to noise. As you mention UV can disinfect public touch surfaces like checkout lanes. These aren’t hard problems.

    The only real problem businesses are where people close together, with their mouths open is sort of the point–bars, restaurants and most of all clubs.

    One can regulate that … or go with “use at your own risk”.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    Too bad I won't see you at the bar after lockdown AD, you write like someone who has something to say.
  45. @Hail
    Is the Mayor of LA still handing out cash rewards for "snitching" on neighbors engaged in flagrant stay-at-home violations?

    “You know the old expression about snitches. Well, in this case, snitches get rewards,” Garcetti said.
     
    We've somehow slipped into a Twilight Zone episode, and not a very good one.

    Some of the snitches are going to get both stitches and a reward. No prizes for guessing whether or not the reward will be worth it.

  46. “For example, Cheesecake Factory announced they weren’t going to pay rent.”

    Awesome. I hope every business unlawfully shuttered by Democratic governors stops paying rent and taxes, as well as all employees of these businesses stop paying rent and taxes. Bring Democratic states to their knees with a general strike and zero tax revenue.

    Together we can end CoronaHoax.

  47. @syonredux

    The idea of moving much of the economy outdoors for the six warm months reminds me of Robert Heinlein’s 1951 sci-fi novel The Puppet Masters in which an alien invasion of pods that take up residence on your spine requires, requires the President to order mandatory nudism for all Americans all summer, which stabilizes the spread of the alien infestation but induces time tension as the heroes race to eradicate the pods before winter. (This plot twist had nothing to do with Heinlein’s personal nudist kink. It’s totally mandated by the logic of the story RAH made up.)
     
    Hey, they first tried a halfway measure (Schedule Bareback, everybody goes topless), but that wasn't sufficient. For the good of the nation, they had to go all-in with Schedule Suntan.....

    And I seem to recall, at the end, everyone had gotten so used to nudity, they kept it up.

  48. @Anon
    The theft problem would get out of control by thieves running by and snatching and grabbing, and most retailers don't want all the extra hassle of moving their entire stock outdoors at opening and back indoors at night. No do retailers want to mad-dash their entire stock indoors every time a rain storm arrives that might ruin it, or set up display stands again every time a big wind blows through.

    Buildings exist for a reason.

    Lack of shoot to kill on thieves and more importantly, “activists”.

  49. Anonymous[275] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing from exercise, with shouting, singing etc.

    I'm not going to the opera for awhile.

    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing …

    Mouth breathing by the victim may also play a significant role as the natural filtering mechanisms of the nasal cavities is short-circuited. This in turn could lead to a significantly higher viral load being absorbed at the outset.

    The higher initial load may overwhelm the body’s initial (non-specific) defenses, and could also shorten the period until max load is reached by 2-3 days, thus depriving the body of valuable time to build up targeted anti-virus responses.

    High-decibel parties with dancing, shouting etc. generally involve a lot of mouth-breathing, even by those who don’t themselves shout or sing.

    • Replies: @Smithsonian_6

    Mouth breathing by the victim may also play a significant role
     
    That explains why Tiny Duck has been absent these last few weeks.
  50. @AnotherDad

    The plexiglass solution is more like along with pick up and delivery ordering. Buildings can be cleaned easily enough with uvc lights and ozone. Everyone will be wearing face masks too no doubt.

    I’m surprised you’re not very good at this but, well, you can’t be good at everything.
     
    Agree. I'd call this a complete whiff. Rare for Steve.

    We don't have to run crimped, kludgy businesses. Mask up in indoor public spaces (and crowded outdoor ones) and you're done. Businesses could do temperature checks and/or symptom checks as well to keep out the sick. (They certainly should be able to boot anyone they like ... but then they always should have been able to do that. "Civil rights" law is an abomination.)

    Masks and airborne transmission drops to noise. As you mention UV can disinfect public touch surfaces like checkout lanes. These aren't hard problems.

    The only real problem businesses are where people close together, with their mouths open is sort of the point--bars, restaurants and most of all clubs.

    One can regulate that ... or go with "use at your own risk".

    Too bad I won’t see you at the bar after lockdown AD, you write like someone who has something to say.

  51. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Setting up isolation wards, e.g., in parking lots, sports stadiums and deserted college dorms, separate from hospitals and current treatment facilities for ALL detected SARS-CoV-2 infected individuals would be and still is a good idea. It would effectively be ruthless triage, dooming many seriously ill people to almost certain death,* and seen as such, which is why it won't happen. Too bad because current policies concentrate our first line providers of medical health care among the worst cases of Covid-19, virtually ensuring exposure to high viral loads, serious illness, and a higher than necessary chance of dying. Basically, the current hospitalization policies are on track to decimate and further demoralize our already insufficient and demoralized medical care providers. We will pay for this sooner or later.

    The policies we have now were the result of panicked reactions based on insufficient data. Our leaders and our public health systems have failed miserably. It's worth remembering that back in the day, Fauci was one of those who refused for an extended period to acknowledge that AIDS/HIV was primarily a homosexual epidemic that spread very slightly into the general population through needle and blood sharing. He continued to downplay the role which homosexual promiscuity played in spreading HIV/AIDS. It was people like Fauci that kept San Francisco's bath houses open and ensured the deaths of many thousands of those they claimed/thought to be protecting. People like him are engineering another human disaster. The libertarian crazies who oppose him go to the other extreme.

    As John Derbyshire wrote on another occasion, "We're Doomed!"

    -------------
    * Although current drastic treatments of Covid-19 cases, e.g., the use of respirators, may be worse than no treatment in many cases. There is an extraordinarily high death rate among Covid-18 patients receiving ventilator treatment, miuch higher than the rates usually associated with ventilators. No one is sure why.

    the use of respirators, may be worse than no treatment in many cases. There is an extraordinarily high death rate among Covid-18 patients receiving ventilator treatment, miuch higher than the rates usually associated with ventilators. No one is sure why.

    Ventilators do not address the average patients’ severe nutritional deficiencies nor do they cure Covid-19. The gastric feeding tube formula for ICU ventilator patients will generally consist of corn maltodextrin, sugar, or fructose, or corn syrup, protein powder, and a daily requirement of vitamins and minerals.

    Due to the lack of PPE, patients may be getting reinfected or picking up other hospital-born illnesses from healthcare workers.

    Some doctors are advocating that patients receive intravenous feedings (parenteral), which are more risky than gastric feedings (enteral), in order to protect healthcare workers.

    Both the Society of Critical Care Medicine and ASPEN will be releasing COVID-19 nutrition recommendations this week, which he noted will include discussion of early conversion to parenteral nutrition if the enteral mode requires significantly more health care worker exposure.

    ”I never thought I’d say that,” Dr. Martindale said. This strategy, however, should decrease the need to check patients’ bellies, place distal feeding tubes and other potential routes of exposure for health care providers.

    https://www.idse.net/Covid-19/Article/04-20/Optimizing-Nutrition-for-Critically-Ill-COVID-19-Patients/57837

    • Replies: @Jack D

    The gastric feeding tube formula for ICU ventilator patients will generally consist of corn maltodextrin, sugar, or fructose, or corn syrup, protein powder, and a daily requirement of vitamins and minerals.
     
    This sounds horrid but it's probably not any worse for them than what they were eating before, perhaps even better. The diet on the ventilator is not what is killing them, it's the diet they've been eating for the last 40 years. Whatever slop they do or do not pump down that tube for a couple of weeks, good or bad, is not going to change your outcome.


    Due to the lack of PPE, patients may be getting reinfected
     
    Unlikely.

    It's becoming clear that despite the big fuss made about ventilators, they are not going to really be short on them (all of the ventilators being rushed into production at great expense are going to gather dust in some warehouse and be discarded in 10 years) nor do ventilators really help those suffering from Wuhan Virus except in rare cases. At least 80% of the time, patients are going to die anyway despite being ventilated. We don't really have a controlled study to compare this with alternative treatments but doctors see a patient in respiratory distress and feel like they have to try something to save them - when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    Yesterday I read a heartfelt op ed from a mother who was worried that her daughter might be triaged in a(n imaginary) ventilator shortage because she had a respiratory ailment. OK, fair enough, but then she went on and explained that her daughter had some genetic defect and was profoundly retarded and had all sorts of other ailments too. This woman should be praying for God to take her daughter and end her suffering on this Earth but I guess if you don't believe in God then that's not an option and you cling desperately to man's feeble toys to save you.
  52. @A123
    Amusing, but impractical. In the:

    -- South, 90 degree heat plus 90% humidity. Plus aerial invasion -- mosquitos, horse flies, and other larger more unpleasant flying critters.
    -- North, being outdoors in February does not seem like a winning idea.

    Having about outdoor deck for use when weather is pleasant is one thing. Trying to move business outdoors on a year-round basis is problematic.

    PEACE 😷

    Yes, moving stuff outside would be pretty great in southern CA, but in large swathes of the country it’s not that feasible.

    For example, my ancestral village in Sioux County, IA, had ideal al fresco business weather just a week ago, with sun and nice mild temperatures in the 70s and low 80s. But on Easter Sunday they had six inches of snow, with winds of 30-40 mph, and it’ll be in the teens there overnight. It’ll soon be too hot for comfort out on blacktop or bare concrete. And even on the handful of days in the year there with nice moderate temperatures, it’s often pretty damn windy.

    I hate to keep repeating myself, but keeping businesses going indoors and still avoiding COVID spread does not seem to be impossible — that is, if everybody’s masked, and observing at least minimal social distancing.

    Hong Kong’s shops and most restaurants have not shut at all this year. We’ve been out many times for shopping and dining, and so have lots and lots of other people. Like the MTR, many shops have been very busy, even crowded, in the past few weeks, but there is no real evidence that anybody’s picking up the virus in these conditions.

  53. @ziggurat
    But will there be food in the stores?

    The latest from Karl Denninger:
    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=238925


    Told You So: HERE COME FOOD SHORTAGES!

    CHICAGO (Reuters) - Smithfield Foods, the world’s biggest pork processor, said on Sunday it will shut a U.S. plant indefinitely due to a rash of coronavirus cases among employees and warned the country was moving “perilously close to the edge” in supplies for grocers.

    Slaughterhouse shutdowns are disrupting the U.S. food supply chain, crimping availability of meat at retail stores and leaving farmers without outlets for their livestock.

     

    You cannot stock grocery shelves if there is no plant running to stock them with.

    The hog does not stop growing if you don't harvest it; it continues to require feed and for its waste to be removed yet there's no money coming in to fund either the feed or waste removal since the plant to process said pig into pork chops and bacon is closed and thus the hog cannot be sold.
    ...
    We are days to weeks away from something important breaking in the supply chains and there is no way for any of us, myself included, to know in advance which will be the critical piece in a supply chain that breaks and causes non-availability of life-critical items -- and that supply chain will not be able to be restarted for weeks if not months.
     

    Oh by the way, if you think "lockdowns" and "shelter in place" orders work -- no they don't. Here's Sweden and US, both "R" values (actual transmission rates) -- this isn't a model projection it's off the actual published case rates so it is factual from numbers of positive tests. Note that both Sweden and the US converged to the same place and Sweden did not issue any lockdown orders.
     
    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?get_gallery=7957

    I don't care if you're scared of the virus. We either kill the lockdowns right now, today, or they're going to kill us at a rate far exceeding what the virus could have ever done.
     

    Smithfield is owned by a Chinese company. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out their outbreak was due to travel by Chinese workers, much like northern Italy.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    Actually, the Corona positive rate among the Chinese workers in N Italy is far below that of the whites.

    This tends to suggest that Corona was brought in by Chinese skiers, and not cheap labor.

    Also, Smithfield tends to use illegal aliens from Mexico, making it less likely that the foreign illegal laborers brought it in.

    If there are Chinese executives at the plant, that is a different matter. A way to find out would be to look at the mutation patterns. If the mutations show one pattern, the virus was either directly from China or from the West Coast. Another patten suggest the virus came from Europe or the East Coast.
  54. @Achmed E. Newman
    The TV bimbos and mimbos are ESSENTIAL PEOPLE. They can get their hair done by getting special drivers to take them to special hairdressers, all with ESSENTIAL PEOPLE WAIVERS.

    Staying inside and getting no business or personal errands done is for the little people. ESSENTIAL WAIVERS are one of the perks of being in outer party. Inner party member don't need to worry about ANY of this shit.

    When all this is done, we will all of us have learned whether we are ESSENTIAL or UNESSENTIAL.

  55. It would be easier to simply issue us all NBC gear. We can make them more form fitting and expand the colour range so we don’t lose the urge to reproduce.

  56. @Steve Sailer
    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing from exercise, with shouting, singing etc.

    I'm not going to the opera for awhile.

    Disagree on the exercise hypothesis.

    The data, ventilator use, clearly shows that lack of lung capacity to move massive [relatively speaking) amounts of air is part of the problem. Hence the mortality rates of obese and people with CV issues.

    So why did the choir members get sick? same reason the subway riders and medical professionals got sick: dosage (same air for extended periods of time).

    Secondly I’ve notice a pattern (albeit anectdotal) that many symptoms occur “in the morning” as in ” I woke up and my throat was…”. When we sleep we move very little air which may allow pathogens time to get deep into the lungs without the pressure of exhaling deeply.

    Also. Nose breathing. If you are “out of shape” you probably mouth breath which is not the optimal way to breath.

    https://lifespa.com/15-benefits-nose-breathing-exercise/

    https://105b31079a1ba381f52e-ac2ec5114feb632a1114f20df0e72453.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/Page/56d987e0-d130-48cf-97f0-08840ad284e6/the-health-benefits-of-nose-breathing.pdf

  57. @miss marple
    The plexiglass solution is more like along with pick up and delivery ordering. Buildings can be cleaned easily enough with uvc lights and ozone. Everyone will be wearing face masks too no doubt.

    I'm surprised you're not very good at this but, well, you can't be good at everything.

    The plexiglass solution is more like along with pick up and delivery ordering. Buildings can be cleaned easily enough with uvc lights and ozone. Everyone will be wearing face masks too no doubt.

    About this thing of cleaning buildings all around and all the time with far ultraviolet or ozone… some time ago I wondered — though I’ll credit commenters Fun and Buzz Mohawk of mentioning it in the context of overuse of hand sanitizer — if there is a significant chance this would enable the rise of UV(C)- or ozone- resistant pathogenic bacteria? Or that was already looked into and there is no significant risk (as in, it only happens with antibiotics — but why? Is it because of their specificity?), or if there is, it’s compensated by the benefits? Yes, rinsing stuff out with soapy water is less cost-efficient than doing the sterilization with UV or ozone, I guess, (is it?) and there’s a pandemic going on which warrants more than mundane methods, but after the worst is over, which might be soon, would it be worth it, in the long term, to implement UV lights and ozone generators in every public building?

  58. @Triumph104

    the use of respirators, may be worse than no treatment in many cases. There is an extraordinarily high death rate among Covid-18 patients receiving ventilator treatment, miuch higher than the rates usually associated with ventilators. No one is sure why.
     
    Ventilators do not address the average patients' severe nutritional deficiencies nor do they cure Covid-19. The gastric feeding tube formula for ICU ventilator patients will generally consist of corn maltodextrin, sugar, or fructose, or corn syrup, protein powder, and a daily requirement of vitamins and minerals.

    Due to the lack of PPE, patients may be getting reinfected or picking up other hospital-born illnesses from healthcare workers.

    Some doctors are advocating that patients receive intravenous feedings (parenteral), which are more risky than gastric feedings (enteral), in order to protect healthcare workers.


    Both the Society of Critical Care Medicine and ASPEN will be releasing COVID-19 nutrition recommendations this week, which he noted will include discussion of early conversion to parenteral nutrition if the enteral mode requires significantly more health care worker exposure.

    ”I never thought I’d say that,” Dr. Martindale said. This strategy, however, should decrease the need to check patients’ bellies, place distal feeding tubes and other potential routes of exposure for health care providers.
     

    https://www.idse.net/Covid-19/Article/04-20/Optimizing-Nutrition-for-Critically-Ill-COVID-19-Patients/57837

    The gastric feeding tube formula for ICU ventilator patients will generally consist of corn maltodextrin, sugar, or fructose, or corn syrup, protein powder, and a daily requirement of vitamins and minerals.

    This sounds horrid but it’s probably not any worse for them than what they were eating before, perhaps even better. The diet on the ventilator is not what is killing them, it’s the diet they’ve been eating for the last 40 years. Whatever slop they do or do not pump down that tube for a couple of weeks, good or bad, is not going to change your outcome.

    Due to the lack of PPE, patients may be getting reinfected

    Unlikely.

    It’s becoming clear that despite the big fuss made about ventilators, they are not going to really be short on them (all of the ventilators being rushed into production at great expense are going to gather dust in some warehouse and be discarded in 10 years) nor do ventilators really help those suffering from Wuhan Virus except in rare cases. At least 80% of the time, patients are going to die anyway despite being ventilated. We don’t really have a controlled study to compare this with alternative treatments but doctors see a patient in respiratory distress and feel like they have to try something to save them – when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    Yesterday I read a heartfelt op ed from a mother who was worried that her daughter might be triaged in a(n imaginary) ventilator shortage because she had a respiratory ailment. OK, fair enough, but then she went on and explained that her daughter had some genetic defect and was profoundly retarded and had all sorts of other ailments too. This woman should be praying for God to take her daughter and end her suffering on this Earth but I guess if you don’t believe in God then that’s not an option and you cling desperately to man’s feeble toys to save you.

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Your level of ignorance is astounding. if someone is in a critical state they may need 5, 10, 20 times additiinal nutrients. Well, the medical profession thinks just like you so I will stop talking. I am not going to save anyone from my keyboard anyway.
  59. @Anonymous

    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing ...
     
    Mouth breathing by the victim may also play a significant role as the natural filtering mechanisms of the nasal cavities is short-circuited. This in turn could lead to a significantly higher viral load being absorbed at the outset.

    The higher initial load may overwhelm the body's initial (non-specific) defenses, and could also shorten the period until max load is reached by 2-3 days, thus depriving the body of valuable time to build up targeted anti-virus responses.

    High-decibel parties with dancing, shouting etc. generally involve a lot of mouth-breathing, even by those who don't themselves shout or sing.

    Mouth breathing by the victim may also play a significant role

    That explains why Tiny Duck has been absent these last few weeks.

  60. @Jack D

    The gastric feeding tube formula for ICU ventilator patients will generally consist of corn maltodextrin, sugar, or fructose, or corn syrup, protein powder, and a daily requirement of vitamins and minerals.
     
    This sounds horrid but it's probably not any worse for them than what they were eating before, perhaps even better. The diet on the ventilator is not what is killing them, it's the diet they've been eating for the last 40 years. Whatever slop they do or do not pump down that tube for a couple of weeks, good or bad, is not going to change your outcome.


    Due to the lack of PPE, patients may be getting reinfected
     
    Unlikely.

    It's becoming clear that despite the big fuss made about ventilators, they are not going to really be short on them (all of the ventilators being rushed into production at great expense are going to gather dust in some warehouse and be discarded in 10 years) nor do ventilators really help those suffering from Wuhan Virus except in rare cases. At least 80% of the time, patients are going to die anyway despite being ventilated. We don't really have a controlled study to compare this with alternative treatments but doctors see a patient in respiratory distress and feel like they have to try something to save them - when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    Yesterday I read a heartfelt op ed from a mother who was worried that her daughter might be triaged in a(n imaginary) ventilator shortage because she had a respiratory ailment. OK, fair enough, but then she went on and explained that her daughter had some genetic defect and was profoundly retarded and had all sorts of other ailments too. This woman should be praying for God to take her daughter and end her suffering on this Earth but I guess if you don't believe in God then that's not an option and you cling desperately to man's feeble toys to save you.

    Your level of ignorance is astounding. if someone is in a critical state they may need 5, 10, 20 times additiinal nutrients. Well, the medical profession thinks just like you so I will stop talking. I am not going to save anyone from my keyboard anyway.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I am willing to be educated. Please show me the controlled studies that prove this need for critical patients and how if they get this level of nutrients in the hospital their outcomes are better than those who don't. I understand that a lifetime of poor diet is going to lead to disease but it's my understanding (and I could be wrong) that in the very short run (e.g. the two weeks or less that a typical Covid ventilator patient survives) your diet is not going to make your outcome any better or worse no matter how good or bad that diet is.
  61. @Colin Wright
    '... In general, I see a lot of upcoming work for blue collar workers making our structures less likely to be sites for the transmission of the virus...'

    Since it's virtually an imaginary disease, can't we just imagine the upgrades have been done?

    It would save a lot of work.

    How about you volunteer to catch it and report in real time the imaginary effects?

    This IQ test being administered to the entire world is an interesting real life experiment. The dumb are really self identifying and I assume will suffer a lot more.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'How about you volunteer to catch it and report in real time the imaginary effects?'

    I think I just got over it; slight fever, a raspy feeling in the chest -- started when my wife came back from California. I rarely get sick, so...

    No promises, of course. Hard to tell with something so utterly innocuous.

    Still -- there's your report!
    , @Colin Wright
    '...The dumb are really self identifying and I assume will suffer a lot more.'

    That, I've noticed. The percentage of customers wearing masks at Wal-Mart was much higher than it is at other businesses.
  62. @AnonAnon
    Smithfield is owned by a Chinese company. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out their outbreak was due to travel by Chinese workers, much like northern Italy.

    Actually, the Corona positive rate among the Chinese workers in N Italy is far below that of the whites.

    This tends to suggest that Corona was brought in by Chinese skiers, and not cheap labor.

    Also, Smithfield tends to use illegal aliens from Mexico, making it less likely that the foreign illegal laborers brought it in.

    If there are Chinese executives at the plant, that is a different matter. A way to find out would be to look at the mutation patterns. If the mutations show one pattern, the virus was either directly from China or from the West Coast. Another patten suggest the virus came from Europe or the East Coast.

  63. @Triumph104
    Your level of ignorance is astounding. if someone is in a critical state they may need 5, 10, 20 times additiinal nutrients. Well, the medical profession thinks just like you so I will stop talking. I am not going to save anyone from my keyboard anyway.

    I am willing to be educated. Please show me the controlled studies that prove this need for critical patients and how if they get this level of nutrients in the hospital their outcomes are better than those who don’t. I understand that a lifetime of poor diet is going to lead to disease but it’s my understanding (and I could be wrong) that in the very short run (e.g. the two weeks or less that a typical Covid ventilator patient survives) your diet is not going to make your outcome any better or worse no matter how good or bad that diet is.

  64. @Achmed E. Newman
    Harold, the planes are running 5 to 20% of capacity. They are getting fogged at the hubs and on the overnights. The air flows from the gaspers, above the bins, and sometimes from the sidewall floor, generally toward the back where the outflow valves are. You'll be fine - sit in the front, but not right next to the flight attendants' jumpseats.

    This BS about aircraft having only recirc. air has got to be stopped. A Captain on a flight 2 weeks back explained it to the passengers before the flight. Air comes in through the ram air opening, gets heated from bleed air from the engines' compressor sections, and then mixed to get good temperature for the cabin. As I wrote if flows out of the outflow valves in a "controlled-leak" fashion to keep the pressure per the pressurization "schedule".

    When the lockdowns end, if the lockdowns end, are we going back to the system that if you are coughing and sniffling that you are going ahead with your flight because the airline won’t allow you to cancel with out a signed note from Dr. Fauci himself?

    A logical thing is to keep people spreading stuff, any stuff, off of planes, but will airlines go along with this change?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I think the airlines may want to think about lightening up on the change fees, which they have lately doing to the drastic changes in loads and schedules, I.M. (The frequent-fliers with lots of "status" didn't have to pay these before, BTW).

    I think the airlines are in for some longer-term hard times because:

    a) Of the pleasure travelers, there will be lots running on low budgets for a long time to come after this Panic-fest shit-show. They will have to cut back on non-essential (funerals, etc.) flying, and with the low gas prices, if they last, why not hit the (now, QUITE-) open road.

    b) Business travelers will get used to cutting travel down only the the amount necessarily (there are plenty of engineers/technicians/etc. who really have to go to different places each week). They may getting more used to Zoom and the like out of necessity. The longer this shutdown lasts, the more they WILL be used to not traveling.

    What the airlines ought to be used to by now is that whenever things have been bright and rosy for a number of years, and the future looks even brighter, as was the case until 1 1/2 months ago, it ain't gonna last. They have seen this before, over and over again.
    , @Jack D
    When all of this is over, I think the airlines are going to have to rethink their price structure, which was severely off kilter anyway - they were making money from it but in the same way that municipalities make money from giving out parking tickets and nailing people in speed traps. This is OK if you are the government - you're going to continue to be the government whether your "customers" like you or not but if you are a private concern, making your customers hate your guts is not usually a good long term strategy even if it produces short term results. They have gotten away with this only because of lack of competition because foreign carriers can't fly US domestic routes.
  65. Suggestion: allow some small group of businesses to reopen en plein air as it were. No more than 1 / 10th, to limit possible problems. Evaluate after a fortnight.

    If it works, then we learn something. Call it the 7 percent plain air solution.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    '... Suggestion: allow some small group of businesses to reopen en plein air as it were. No more than 1 / 10th, to limit possible problems. Evaluate after a fortnight...'

    Sounds like my county in rural Oregon; most businesses have been open right through, parks are only notionally closed, etc.

    Zero deaths to date.

    So there you go. We've even been running this trial for about a month now -- or however long this bullshit has been in vogue.
  66. Steve –
    This is the HVAC add on that is needed now in homes and restaurants…

    https://www.ecohome.net/guides/2362/ventilation-air-exchangers

  67. Cutting someones hair is not a productive business.
    It’s second-tier to someone deeming good hair necessary for the business.
    But if there is no business, no hair dressers is needed.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Yeah, tell that to your wife, and get back to us, Yngvar. That is, if she hasn't thrown your tablet out into the back yard.
  68. @Mike1
    How about you volunteer to catch it and report in real time the imaginary effects?

    This IQ test being administered to the entire world is an interesting real life experiment. The dumb are really self identifying and I assume will suffer a lot more.

    ‘How about you volunteer to catch it and report in real time the imaginary effects?’

    I think I just got over it; slight fever, a raspy feeling in the chest — started when my wife came back from California. I rarely get sick, so…

    No promises, of course. Hard to tell with something so utterly innocuous.

    Still — there’s your report!

  69. @anon
    Suggestion: allow some small group of businesses to reopen en plein air as it were. No more than 1 / 10th, to limit possible problems. Evaluate after a fortnight.

    If it works, then we learn something. Call it the 7 percent plain air solution.

    ‘… Suggestion: allow some small group of businesses to reopen en plein air as it were. No more than 1 / 10th, to limit possible problems. Evaluate after a fortnight…’

    Sounds like my county in rural Oregon; most businesses have been open right through, parks are only notionally closed, etc.

    Zero deaths to date.

    So there you go. We’ve even been running this trial for about a month now — or however long this bullshit has been in vogue.

  70. @Inquiring Mind
    When the lockdowns end, if the lockdowns end, are we going back to the system that if you are coughing and sniffling that you are going ahead with your flight because the airline won't allow you to cancel with out a signed note from Dr. Fauci himself?

    A logical thing is to keep people spreading stuff, any stuff, off of planes, but will airlines go along with this change?

    I think the airlines may want to think about lightening up on the change fees, which they have lately doing to the drastic changes in loads and schedules, I.M. (The frequent-fliers with lots of “status” didn’t have to pay these before, BTW).

    I think the airlines are in for some longer-term hard times because:

    a) Of the pleasure travelers, there will be lots running on low budgets for a long time to come after this Panic-fest shit-show. They will have to cut back on non-essential (funerals, etc.) flying, and with the low gas prices, if they last, why not hit the (now, QUITE-) open road.

    b) Business travelers will get used to cutting travel down only the the amount necessarily (there are plenty of engineers/technicians/etc. who really have to go to different places each week). They may getting more used to Zoom and the like out of necessity. The longer this shutdown lasts, the more they WILL be used to not traveling.

    What the airlines ought to be used to by now is that whenever things have been bright and rosy for a number of years, and the future looks even brighter, as was the case until 1 1/2 months ago, it ain’t gonna last. They have seen this before, over and over again.

  71. @Yngvar
    Cutting someones hair is not a productive business.
    It's second-tier to someone deeming good hair necessary for the business.
    But if there is no business, no hair dressers is needed.

    Yeah, tell that to your wife, and get back to us, Yngvar. That is, if she hasn’t thrown your tablet out into the back yard.

    • LOL: Old Prude
  72. Randall Parker has been pretty wrong the entire way on this thing. better to ignore him for now.

  73. @Mike1
    How about you volunteer to catch it and report in real time the imaginary effects?

    This IQ test being administered to the entire world is an interesting real life experiment. The dumb are really self identifying and I assume will suffer a lot more.

    ‘…The dumb are really self identifying and I assume will suffer a lot more.’

    That, I’ve noticed. The percentage of customers wearing masks at Wal-Mart was much higher than it is at other businesses.

  74. @Inquiring Mind
    When the lockdowns end, if the lockdowns end, are we going back to the system that if you are coughing and sniffling that you are going ahead with your flight because the airline won't allow you to cancel with out a signed note from Dr. Fauci himself?

    A logical thing is to keep people spreading stuff, any stuff, off of planes, but will airlines go along with this change?

    When all of this is over, I think the airlines are going to have to rethink their price structure, which was severely off kilter anyway – they were making money from it but in the same way that municipalities make money from giving out parking tickets and nailing people in speed traps. This is OK if you are the government – you’re going to continue to be the government whether your “customers” like you or not but if you are a private concern, making your customers hate your guts is not usually a good long term strategy even if it produces short term results. They have gotten away with this only because of lack of competition because foreign carriers can’t fly US domestic routes.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Jack, without using the word collusion an airline does exactly what the other airlines are doing. Charge for carry on, ok, we will do that too. Charge for checked through, ok, we will do that too. Charge change fees...well you get my drift. Until one major carrier makes a break, they run as a pack.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Indeed, the pricing has always been screwy, except on SouthWest airlines, Jack. I don't know if those marketing people know what they're doing or not. This goes back to well before they could use computers to calculate the best prices for fares in real time as flights fill up ahead of time. A round-trip ticket would be the same price as a one-way and other puzzling things.

    On some of the things that make the customers hate their guts, well you'd better talk to your Congressman and ask him to shut down the Police State TSA (actually all of Motherland Security for that matter). If you look into a lot of the stupid things that get done, you'll find out, if they are not due to the TSA rules*, they are due to the FAA.

    Let me ask you this, Jack: Do you really think that young lady flight attendant or that gay-looking dude want to treat you the way a Commie official would? That type really does like doing a service and being sweet. No, if she/he knew that there was NOBODY from the FAA possibly on board, no check F/A, and nobody from the company who might tell, why the hell would she be yelling at you to "GET! THAT! SEATBELT! ON!" if you take if off for the landing. Why should she care that much?

    ... because she's worried about getting reprimanded or fired because she is "in charge" of the cabin.

    .


    * That's what it really came down to in the dragging-the-passenger-through-the-aisle incident on United Express(?) a few years back - I can explain if you want to know more.
  75. What is likely to be the effect on pricing for businesses in the retailing sector released from lockdown? Pent-up demand for many services allied to income starvation suffered by small businesses during the period of inactivity can only mean a hike in prices, surely?

    Will such a hike be a temporary spike? Or more lasting?

  76. @Jack D
    When all of this is over, I think the airlines are going to have to rethink their price structure, which was severely off kilter anyway - they were making money from it but in the same way that municipalities make money from giving out parking tickets and nailing people in speed traps. This is OK if you are the government - you're going to continue to be the government whether your "customers" like you or not but if you are a private concern, making your customers hate your guts is not usually a good long term strategy even if it produces short term results. They have gotten away with this only because of lack of competition because foreign carriers can't fly US domestic routes.

    Jack, without using the word collusion an airline does exactly what the other airlines are doing. Charge for carry on, ok, we will do that too. Charge for checked through, ok, we will do that too. Charge change fees…well you get my drift. Until one major carrier makes a break, they run as a pack.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Southwest is an exception.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    I think the internet has made this worse, Joe. This is not the case for the frequent-flying business set, but for pleasure travelers, it's mostly like this: United doesn't charge for luggage (this is a hypothetical example), Delta does. A guy goes on-line to Expedia and compares the deals. Delta looks better for his family of 4, because United has the cost of luggage handling included in the ticket price, while Delta doesn't. It could be a matter of $15.95, but the guy's gonna click on the Delta trip.

    They feel they'd better make an equal or better comparison for on-line shoppers. The small charges might show up in the fine print, but not in the big green numbers showing "the price".

    As I just noticed Hibernian wrote, SW has been much more open. They are not usually competing as directly with the big 3, especially for business travelers, but even pleasure travelers - they don't do so much direct trans-continental flying.

    BTW, in China, at least a few years ago, the airlines' pricing was much like SouthWest's way. You could get a ticket 24 hours ahead of time, and you'd pay more, of course, but you would not get just REAMED.
  77. @Buffalo Joe
    Jack, without using the word collusion an airline does exactly what the other airlines are doing. Charge for carry on, ok, we will do that too. Charge for checked through, ok, we will do that too. Charge change fees...well you get my drift. Until one major carrier makes a break, they run as a pack.

    Southwest is an exception.

  78. @Steve Sailer
    I wonder if the risk increases dramatically with heavier breathing from exercise, with shouting, singing etc.

    I'm not going to the opera for awhile.

    Laughing might be bad too. The puritans were right; no laughing, no dancing, no singing…

    • Replies: @anon
    The puritans were right; no laughing, no dancing, no singing…

    The Puritans did not prohibit any of those things. It's a tedious lie...
  79. @Achmed E. Newman
    The TV bimbos and mimbos are ESSENTIAL PEOPLE. They can get their hair done by getting special drivers to take them to special hairdressers, all with ESSENTIAL PEOPLE WAIVERS.

    Staying inside and getting no business or personal errands done is for the little people. ESSENTIAL WAIVERS are one of the perks of being in outer party. Inner party member don't need to worry about ANY of this shit.

    Yeah, but their jobs are really stressful. Diane Sawyer always needed a big glass of wine and a bottle of pills just to make it through the newscast:

    Recently I found some footage of George W. Bush getting ready to deliver his speech announcing the beginning of the Iraq War. Ultimately, the president is just another actor putting on just another show:

    • LOL: Achmed E. Newman
  80. @Jack D
    When all of this is over, I think the airlines are going to have to rethink their price structure, which was severely off kilter anyway - they were making money from it but in the same way that municipalities make money from giving out parking tickets and nailing people in speed traps. This is OK if you are the government - you're going to continue to be the government whether your "customers" like you or not but if you are a private concern, making your customers hate your guts is not usually a good long term strategy even if it produces short term results. They have gotten away with this only because of lack of competition because foreign carriers can't fly US domestic routes.

    Indeed, the pricing has always been screwy, except on SouthWest airlines, Jack. I don’t know if those marketing people know what they’re doing or not. This goes back to well before they could use computers to calculate the best prices for fares in real time as flights fill up ahead of time. A round-trip ticket would be the same price as a one-way and other puzzling things.

    On some of the things that make the customers hate their guts, well you’d better talk to your Congressman and ask him to shut down the Police State TSA (actually all of Motherland Security for that matter). If you look into a lot of the stupid things that get done, you’ll find out, if they are not due to the TSA rules*, they are due to the FAA.

    Let me ask you this, Jack: Do you really think that young lady flight attendant or that gay-looking dude want to treat you the way a Commie official would? That type really does like doing a service and being sweet. No, if she/he knew that there was NOBODY from the FAA possibly on board, no check F/A, and nobody from the company who might tell, why the hell would she be yelling at you to “GET! THAT! SEATBELT! ON!” if you take if off for the landing. Why should she care that much?

    … because she’s worried about getting reprimanded or fired because she is “in charge” of the cabin.

    .

    * That’s what it really came down to in the dragging-the-passenger-through-the-aisle incident on United Express(?) a few years back – I can explain if you want to know more.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Part of it may be the TSA or the FAA but part of it is that power corrupts. See the famous Stanford Prison Experiment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

    Put someone in a position of absolute power and suddenly your sweet little flight attendant is doing a passable imitation of a prison guard.

    As I said before, the current crisis may be a good time for the airlines to rethink their model as they rebuild from the ground up. People's hatred of American carriers (none of them are in the top ranks on world ranking systems such as Airline Equality) was multifaceted - not only did they hate them for their "gotcha" pricing games but, separately, they also hated them for being treated like criminals once you got on the plane (actually from the moment you arrived at the airport).

    Any business model can get a bit rusty with age, especially under conditions of no or low competition (combined with government meddling). American cars really sucked in the '70s until Japanese imports forced them to clean up their game. A few years ago I took a flight to China with a stop in HK. The first leg was on United. The plane was an ancient 747 - the "entertainment" was giant CRT TV's hanging from the ceiling every 10 rows (but not giant enough that you could actually see them if you were in the 10th row). The stewardesses were equally ancient. One of them was a grandma on her last flight and her fellow crew members kept parading her around the cabin with balloons and such. It was nice for her but it didn't really do much for the passengers, which is why the crew is supposed to be there. Otherwise, the attendants were not very attentive - they seemed to do their best to hide out in the back as much as possible. The 2nd leg was a private Chinese carrier (Chinese state carriers suck in their own way). The aircraft was brand new. The pilots were Westerners. The stewardesses were all good looking slim young females. Even though it was a short flight they kept coming around constantly and there was full meal service with drinks, even in coach (and Haagen Dazs ice cream for dessert!). It felt like I had been transported back 50 years to when flying was still fun.
  81. @Buffalo Joe
    Jack, without using the word collusion an airline does exactly what the other airlines are doing. Charge for carry on, ok, we will do that too. Charge for checked through, ok, we will do that too. Charge change fees...well you get my drift. Until one major carrier makes a break, they run as a pack.

    I think the internet has made this worse, Joe. This is not the case for the frequent-flying business set, but for pleasure travelers, it’s mostly like this: United doesn’t charge for luggage (this is a hypothetical example), Delta does. A guy goes on-line to Expedia and compares the deals. Delta looks better for his family of 4, because United has the cost of luggage handling included in the ticket price, while Delta doesn’t. It could be a matter of $15.95, but the guy’s gonna click on the Delta trip.

    They feel they’d better make an equal or better comparison for on-line shoppers. The small charges might show up in the fine print, but not in the big green numbers showing “the price”.

    As I just noticed Hibernian wrote, SW has been much more open. They are not usually competing as directly with the big 3, especially for business travelers, but even pleasure travelers – they don’t do so much direct trans-continental flying.

    BTW, in China, at least a few years ago, the airlines’ pricing was much like SouthWest’s way. You could get a ticket 24 hours ahead of time, and you’d pay more, of course, but you would not get just REAMED.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    A lot of this has to do with the airline's reaction to irrational consumer behavior in the age of online ticket shopping. Specifically that people will always buy the 1st (lowest price) fare shown in a search engine (the same reason why back in the Yellow Pages days there were a lot of companies with names like AAA Acme). They could make you sit out on the wing and people would still buy it as long as it was the cheapest fare. So you "unbundle" the fare by not including as many things as possible to get to the top of the search pile, and then you add those things back in later after the fare is already selected - checked baggage, carry on baggage, seat choice, meals, the ability to change dates, a decent amount of leg room, an "energy surcharge" (we'll sell you the seat but if you want plane to fly then the fuel will cost you extra), etc. Whatever they can dream up. Originally the airlines didn't believe that this would work - they scoffed at Spirit when they tried this but Spirit was tremendously successful so when you can't beat 'em, join em.

    Lately hotels have taken to the same tricks and they add nonsense fees like "resort fees" which are nothing but a disguised part of the room cost, just to drive up their search engine position that is keyed off of base rate. Unlike airline luggage fees, you can't even opt out. Hotels that are distinctly not "resort" like add these fees anyway. Car dealers also have nonsense like "documentation fees" for the same reason.

    The FTC could put an end to a lot of this nonsense by forcing the search engines to show and rank according to the out the door price and not just the base charge. It's really deceptive when your $50 room actually costs $100.
  82. @Achmed E. Newman
    I think the internet has made this worse, Joe. This is not the case for the frequent-flying business set, but for pleasure travelers, it's mostly like this: United doesn't charge for luggage (this is a hypothetical example), Delta does. A guy goes on-line to Expedia and compares the deals. Delta looks better for his family of 4, because United has the cost of luggage handling included in the ticket price, while Delta doesn't. It could be a matter of $15.95, but the guy's gonna click on the Delta trip.

    They feel they'd better make an equal or better comparison for on-line shoppers. The small charges might show up in the fine print, but not in the big green numbers showing "the price".

    As I just noticed Hibernian wrote, SW has been much more open. They are not usually competing as directly with the big 3, especially for business travelers, but even pleasure travelers - they don't do so much direct trans-continental flying.

    BTW, in China, at least a few years ago, the airlines' pricing was much like SouthWest's way. You could get a ticket 24 hours ahead of time, and you'd pay more, of course, but you would not get just REAMED.

    A lot of this has to do with the airline’s reaction to irrational consumer behavior in the age of online ticket shopping. Specifically that people will always buy the 1st (lowest price) fare shown in a search engine (the same reason why back in the Yellow Pages days there were a lot of companies with names like AAA Acme). They could make you sit out on the wing and people would still buy it as long as it was the cheapest fare. So you “unbundle” the fare by not including as many things as possible to get to the top of the search pile, and then you add those things back in later after the fare is already selected – checked baggage, carry on baggage, seat choice, meals, the ability to change dates, a decent amount of leg room, an “energy surcharge” (we’ll sell you the seat but if you want plane to fly then the fuel will cost you extra), etc. Whatever they can dream up. Originally the airlines didn’t believe that this would work – they scoffed at Spirit when they tried this but Spirit was tremendously successful so when you can’t beat ’em, join em.

    Lately hotels have taken to the same tricks and they add nonsense fees like “resort fees” which are nothing but a disguised part of the room cost, just to drive up their search engine position that is keyed off of base rate. Unlike airline luggage fees, you can’t even opt out. Hotels that are distinctly not “resort” like add these fees anyway. Car dealers also have nonsense like “documentation fees” for the same reason.

    The FTC could put an end to a lot of this nonsense by forcing the search engines to show and rank according to the out the door price and not just the base charge. It’s really deceptive when your $50 room actually costs $100.

    • Replies: @res

    The FTC could put an end to a lot of this nonsense by forcing the search engines to show and rank according to the out the door price and not just the base charge. It’s really deceptive when your $50 room actually costs $100.
     
    Yup. Things like that make it very clear who the government operates for the benefit of. And it is not the individual citizens.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Jack, your first paragraph is what I was getting at - no disagreement. I could tell you a story about the rental of a piece of equipment about half a year ago - the rental center guy said $120 on the phone. OK, I expect some tax, of course, as that's not usually part of the price. As I rented the machine I asked how much total... whoaa! "Tax is not THAT much." "No there's a service fee to refill gas and hydraulic fluid, ..." "That's part of the price then. I asked you over the phone!"

    I liked these people and really didn't have much choice in where I rented this machine. Then, the fee to use a credit card was NOT part of that $120 either - nobody does that, and I made a mental note to bring cash the next day when I returned it. The mental note didn't stick, so there was another few dollars.

    I get your point on this, Jack. However, what are the airlines, or Expedia for that matter, to do? Having a place to fill in number of bags is one solution, but maybe there are other fees, as with Spirit. The fee for bags IS there for one to read, but people are not up for all that detail. You call them "irrational" but it's a matter of laziness and also believing shopping by price is the only important thing.

    I've talked to people - "You've going from Phoenix to south Florida and you're connecting here in Detroit? Didn't they have something more direct?" "This was cheaper." "OK, how much is your time worth?", I'd like to ask, because I don't know if they saved $250 or $19.99. I guess you could call it irrational sometimes.

    , @Jim Don Bob
    I rented a Uhaul truck recently and there was a $5 "environmental fee."

    It would not bother me one bit if I never got on another airplane as long as I lived. I like a lot of the modern world, but flying is probably the most dehumanizing experience out there. Stand in line, show your id, stand in another line, take off your shoes and get irradiated, stand in another line, show your boarding pass, etc., all while listening to disembodied voices telling you to "say something if you see something", "in the event of a water landing", etc.
  83. @Achmed E. Newman
    Indeed, the pricing has always been screwy, except on SouthWest airlines, Jack. I don't know if those marketing people know what they're doing or not. This goes back to well before they could use computers to calculate the best prices for fares in real time as flights fill up ahead of time. A round-trip ticket would be the same price as a one-way and other puzzling things.

    On some of the things that make the customers hate their guts, well you'd better talk to your Congressman and ask him to shut down the Police State TSA (actually all of Motherland Security for that matter). If you look into a lot of the stupid things that get done, you'll find out, if they are not due to the TSA rules*, they are due to the FAA.

    Let me ask you this, Jack: Do you really think that young lady flight attendant or that gay-looking dude want to treat you the way a Commie official would? That type really does like doing a service and being sweet. No, if she/he knew that there was NOBODY from the FAA possibly on board, no check F/A, and nobody from the company who might tell, why the hell would she be yelling at you to "GET! THAT! SEATBELT! ON!" if you take if off for the landing. Why should she care that much?

    ... because she's worried about getting reprimanded or fired because she is "in charge" of the cabin.

    .


    * That's what it really came down to in the dragging-the-passenger-through-the-aisle incident on United Express(?) a few years back - I can explain if you want to know more.

    Part of it may be the TSA or the FAA but part of it is that power corrupts. See the famous Stanford Prison Experiment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

    Put someone in a position of absolute power and suddenly your sweet little flight attendant is doing a passable imitation of a prison guard.

    As I said before, the current crisis may be a good time for the airlines to rethink their model as they rebuild from the ground up. People’s hatred of American carriers (none of them are in the top ranks on world ranking systems such as Airline Equality) was multifaceted – not only did they hate them for their “gotcha” pricing games but, separately, they also hated them for being treated like criminals once you got on the plane (actually from the moment you arrived at the airport).

    Any business model can get a bit rusty with age, especially under conditions of no or low competition (combined with government meddling). American cars really sucked in the ’70s until Japanese imports forced them to clean up their game. A few years ago I took a flight to China with a stop in HK. The first leg was on United. The plane was an ancient 747 – the “entertainment” was giant CRT TV’s hanging from the ceiling every 10 rows (but not giant enough that you could actually see them if you were in the 10th row). The stewardesses were equally ancient. One of them was a grandma on her last flight and her fellow crew members kept parading her around the cabin with balloons and such. It was nice for her but it didn’t really do much for the passengers, which is why the crew is supposed to be there. Otherwise, the attendants were not very attentive – they seemed to do their best to hide out in the back as much as possible. The 2nd leg was a private Chinese carrier (Chinese state carriers suck in their own way). The aircraft was brand new. The pilots were Westerners. The stewardesses were all good looking slim young females. Even though it was a short flight they kept coming around constantly and there was full meal service with drinks, even in coach (and Haagen Dazs ice cream for dessert!). It felt like I had been transported back 50 years to when flying was still fun.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite

    The stewardesses were equally ancient. One of them was a grandma on her last flight ...The 2nd leg was a private Chinese carrier (Chinese state carriers suck in their own way). The aircraft was brand new. The pilots were Westerners. The stewardesses were all good looking slim young females.
     
    US carriers used to require their stewardesses (err, "flight attendants") to be female, under 30, not married, and pass a weight requirement. Business travelers (who pay the higher fares) are overwhelmingly male. Men don't want to waited on by grandmothers and swishy homosexuals.

    Naturally the EEOC put a stop to that. Private companies can't be allowed to decide what sort of employees they want facing the customer. The right of the fat, the ugly, the male, the homosexual to be a waitress in a bad restaurant must not be infringed.

    "Civil Rights" at work.

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Jack, I replied to some of this in the same comment as a reply to Mr. Badwhite.

    On the "respect mah authoritah" bit, I don't agree with you in this case. I know plenty of flight attendants. They are basically "servers", man, I hate that term, so, OK waitresses and waiters in the sky with flight benefits, but not much pay in tips. At least when hired, they really are "people people", (Some were even more than that, hired out of the strip clubs in Memphis.) No, most of them really don't like bossing people around. That's the mentality of the people hired.

    they also hated them for being treated like criminals once you got on the plane (actually from the moment you arrived at the airport).
     
    TSA is a big part of this. If you want me to give the example of the dragged-off United Express passenger, I will, and you might understand more of this.

    If you took the government stupidity out of the picture, no, these people would act just as nice as they would if the were on the ground working at the bar or restaurant. Maybe they would even get more tips!

    The 747s have not been flying in US passenger service since the end of '17. We got to ride on this classic beast, right near the end! The US carriers have the 777s as a workhorse and plenty of newer A-330s and some very decent long-range 767s. The 787s are cool, and have a hell of a range, but don't carry as many people. There no difference with regard to the planes, US vs. International, except for how the 1st/business class is set up.

    On your last part, yes, remember, "you get what you pay for". If you like it very nice, as I wrote to Intelligent D the other day, buy yourself a first class ticket. I bet if you compared it, inflation-adjusted, to back in the "good old days", it would not be that much more than coach was relatively speaking. You are right though, that you won't often get the slim 22 y/o's serving you, no matter what. I don't know what you can do about that besides, yes, buy a fractional share.
  84. @Anonymous
    Wow the NYC death numbers are crashing.

    Raoult HCQ regimen is saving lives of the elderly and obese and diabetics.

    Imagine the paltry death toll if all of the fudge was stripped out of the data.

    Paradoxically the emptied out hospitals are desperate for cash. They are extremely motivated to MARK IT DOWN COVID. Covid-19 cases means guaranteed fed reimbursement.

    Outrageous that people are being harassed fined $$$ for being outside in parks and going to church .... meanwhile the subways keep running. Airlines keep flying.

    At least there was a great video today from the Queen of England. I'm not a fan of monarchy but she is amazing at 93(!)...

    God Bless Her Majesty:

  85. @Jack D
    Part of it may be the TSA or the FAA but part of it is that power corrupts. See the famous Stanford Prison Experiment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

    Put someone in a position of absolute power and suddenly your sweet little flight attendant is doing a passable imitation of a prison guard.

    As I said before, the current crisis may be a good time for the airlines to rethink their model as they rebuild from the ground up. People's hatred of American carriers (none of them are in the top ranks on world ranking systems such as Airline Equality) was multifaceted - not only did they hate them for their "gotcha" pricing games but, separately, they also hated them for being treated like criminals once you got on the plane (actually from the moment you arrived at the airport).

    Any business model can get a bit rusty with age, especially under conditions of no or low competition (combined with government meddling). American cars really sucked in the '70s until Japanese imports forced them to clean up their game. A few years ago I took a flight to China with a stop in HK. The first leg was on United. The plane was an ancient 747 - the "entertainment" was giant CRT TV's hanging from the ceiling every 10 rows (but not giant enough that you could actually see them if you were in the 10th row). The stewardesses were equally ancient. One of them was a grandma on her last flight and her fellow crew members kept parading her around the cabin with balloons and such. It was nice for her but it didn't really do much for the passengers, which is why the crew is supposed to be there. Otherwise, the attendants were not very attentive - they seemed to do their best to hide out in the back as much as possible. The 2nd leg was a private Chinese carrier (Chinese state carriers suck in their own way). The aircraft was brand new. The pilots were Westerners. The stewardesses were all good looking slim young females. Even though it was a short flight they kept coming around constantly and there was full meal service with drinks, even in coach (and Haagen Dazs ice cream for dessert!). It felt like I had been transported back 50 years to when flying was still fun.

    The stewardesses were equally ancient. One of them was a grandma on her last flight …The 2nd leg was a private Chinese carrier (Chinese state carriers suck in their own way). The aircraft was brand new. The pilots were Westerners. The stewardesses were all good looking slim young females.

    US carriers used to require their stewardesses (err, “flight attendants”) to be female, under 30, not married, and pass a weight requirement. Business travelers (who pay the higher fares) are overwhelmingly male. Men don’t want to waited on by grandmothers and swishy homosexuals.

    Naturally the EEOC put a stop to that. Private companies can’t be allowed to decide what sort of employees they want facing the customer. The right of the fat, the ugly, the male, the homosexual to be a waitress in a bad restaurant must not be infringed.

    “Civil Rights” at work.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Exactly, Mr. Badwhite. The airlines will get in trouble for blatantly hiring only hotties. Now, even in China, you don't see hotties as, only from what I hear, you still will see in SE Asia, the Middle East, etc.

    For Jack, seniority is EVERYTHING in that business. The old biddy who started off as a 19 y/o hottie on the Lockheed Constellation (I kid, but not by too much!) can get more days off per month, the best trips to the primo destinations that she's not sick of yet, and I think can decide if she wants to be purser on the widebodies and make a few more buck.. or not. Of course, the hourly pay will be higher too. Why would she leave? It's not up to the airline.
  86. @Harold
    Laughing might be bad too. The puritans were right; no laughing, no dancing, no singing…

    The puritans were right; no laughing, no dancing, no singing…

    The Puritans did not prohibit any of those things. It’s a tedious lie…

    • Agree: Hail
  87. @Jack D
    A lot of this has to do with the airline's reaction to irrational consumer behavior in the age of online ticket shopping. Specifically that people will always buy the 1st (lowest price) fare shown in a search engine (the same reason why back in the Yellow Pages days there were a lot of companies with names like AAA Acme). They could make you sit out on the wing and people would still buy it as long as it was the cheapest fare. So you "unbundle" the fare by not including as many things as possible to get to the top of the search pile, and then you add those things back in later after the fare is already selected - checked baggage, carry on baggage, seat choice, meals, the ability to change dates, a decent amount of leg room, an "energy surcharge" (we'll sell you the seat but if you want plane to fly then the fuel will cost you extra), etc. Whatever they can dream up. Originally the airlines didn't believe that this would work - they scoffed at Spirit when they tried this but Spirit was tremendously successful so when you can't beat 'em, join em.

    Lately hotels have taken to the same tricks and they add nonsense fees like "resort fees" which are nothing but a disguised part of the room cost, just to drive up their search engine position that is keyed off of base rate. Unlike airline luggage fees, you can't even opt out. Hotels that are distinctly not "resort" like add these fees anyway. Car dealers also have nonsense like "documentation fees" for the same reason.

    The FTC could put an end to a lot of this nonsense by forcing the search engines to show and rank according to the out the door price and not just the base charge. It's really deceptive when your $50 room actually costs $100.

    The FTC could put an end to a lot of this nonsense by forcing the search engines to show and rank according to the out the door price and not just the base charge. It’s really deceptive when your $50 room actually costs $100.

    Yup. Things like that make it very clear who the government operates for the benefit of. And it is not the individual citizens.

  88. @Jack D
    A lot of this has to do with the airline's reaction to irrational consumer behavior in the age of online ticket shopping. Specifically that people will always buy the 1st (lowest price) fare shown in a search engine (the same reason why back in the Yellow Pages days there were a lot of companies with names like AAA Acme). They could make you sit out on the wing and people would still buy it as long as it was the cheapest fare. So you "unbundle" the fare by not including as many things as possible to get to the top of the search pile, and then you add those things back in later after the fare is already selected - checked baggage, carry on baggage, seat choice, meals, the ability to change dates, a decent amount of leg room, an "energy surcharge" (we'll sell you the seat but if you want plane to fly then the fuel will cost you extra), etc. Whatever they can dream up. Originally the airlines didn't believe that this would work - they scoffed at Spirit when they tried this but Spirit was tremendously successful so when you can't beat 'em, join em.

    Lately hotels have taken to the same tricks and they add nonsense fees like "resort fees" which are nothing but a disguised part of the room cost, just to drive up their search engine position that is keyed off of base rate. Unlike airline luggage fees, you can't even opt out. Hotels that are distinctly not "resort" like add these fees anyway. Car dealers also have nonsense like "documentation fees" for the same reason.

    The FTC could put an end to a lot of this nonsense by forcing the search engines to show and rank according to the out the door price and not just the base charge. It's really deceptive when your $50 room actually costs $100.

    Jack, your first paragraph is what I was getting at – no disagreement. I could tell you a story about the rental of a piece of equipment about half a year ago – the rental center guy said $120 on the phone. OK, I expect some tax, of course, as that’s not usually part of the price. As I rented the machine I asked how much total… whoaa! “Tax is not THAT much.” “No there’s a service fee to refill gas and hydraulic fluid, …” “That’s part of the price then. I asked you over the phone!”

    I liked these people and really didn’t have much choice in where I rented this machine. Then, the fee to use a credit card was NOT part of that $120 either – nobody does that, and I made a mental note to bring cash the next day when I returned it. The mental note didn’t stick, so there was another few dollars.

    I get your point on this, Jack. However, what are the airlines, or Expedia for that matter, to do? Having a place to fill in number of bags is one solution, but maybe there are other fees, as with Spirit. The fee for bags IS there for one to read, but people are not up for all that detail. You call them “irrational” but it’s a matter of laziness and also believing shopping by price is the only important thing.

    I’ve talked to people – “You’ve going from Phoenix to south Florida and you’re connecting here in Detroit? Didn’t they have something more direct?” “This was cheaper.” “OK, how much is your time worth?”, I’d like to ask, because I don’t know if they saved $250 or $19.99. I guess you could call it irrational sometimes.

  89. @William Badwhite

    The stewardesses were equally ancient. One of them was a grandma on her last flight ...The 2nd leg was a private Chinese carrier (Chinese state carriers suck in their own way). The aircraft was brand new. The pilots were Westerners. The stewardesses were all good looking slim young females.
     
    US carriers used to require their stewardesses (err, "flight attendants") to be female, under 30, not married, and pass a weight requirement. Business travelers (who pay the higher fares) are overwhelmingly male. Men don't want to waited on by grandmothers and swishy homosexuals.

    Naturally the EEOC put a stop to that. Private companies can't be allowed to decide what sort of employees they want facing the customer. The right of the fat, the ugly, the male, the homosexual to be a waitress in a bad restaurant must not be infringed.

    "Civil Rights" at work.

    Exactly, Mr. Badwhite. The airlines will get in trouble for blatantly hiring only hotties. Now, even in China, you don’t see hotties as, only from what I hear, you still will see in SE Asia, the Middle East, etc.

    For Jack, seniority is EVERYTHING in that business. The old biddy who started off as a 19 y/o hottie on the Lockheed Constellation (I kid, but not by too much!) can get more days off per month, the best trips to the primo destinations that she’s not sick of yet, and I think can decide if she wants to be purser on the widebodies and make a few more buck.. or not. Of course, the hourly pay will be higher too. Why would she leave? It’s not up to the airline.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I understand fully how we got here, but that doesn't mean that I like it. As I said before, old established orders tend to develop encrustations the way that ships develop barnacles. You start out as a young competitive industry with a young flexible workforce and a can-do attitude. Then the unions come in. The government comes in - a whole alphabet soup - EEOC and FAA and TSA and so on. Then you have management who are more interested quarterly earnings and in keeping up the stock price and collecting big option payments than they are in the long term health of the company. The workforce becomes alienated because they have been mistreated by management for so long (and the golden handcuff of seniority mean that people don't move on with their lives when they should have - it's hard to maintain enthusiasm for decades in the same job). At each step along the way, what the company has done makes sense in the context of its situation, but one day you wake up and you realize that all of your customers hate you.

    One of the reasons why Japan and Germany did so well after WWII is that the American bombers blasted away a lot of the encrustations in their society and gave them a fresh start. If we were not so far gone as a country, this crisis, could be for the airlines (and a number of other industries) a way to give their hulls a good scraping and turn themselves into more nimble organizations whom their customers might even like again. But I fear that won't happen.
    , @William Badwhite
    A number of years ago I watched an interview with Lee Kuan Yew. While discussing Singapore Airlines he specifically said they hire attractive flight attendants because that's what men prefer to see. American carriers know this as well of course, they just can't do anything about it because "civil rights".
  90. @Jack D
    Part of it may be the TSA or the FAA but part of it is that power corrupts. See the famous Stanford Prison Experiment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

    Put someone in a position of absolute power and suddenly your sweet little flight attendant is doing a passable imitation of a prison guard.

    As I said before, the current crisis may be a good time for the airlines to rethink their model as they rebuild from the ground up. People's hatred of American carriers (none of them are in the top ranks on world ranking systems such as Airline Equality) was multifaceted - not only did they hate them for their "gotcha" pricing games but, separately, they also hated them for being treated like criminals once you got on the plane (actually from the moment you arrived at the airport).

    Any business model can get a bit rusty with age, especially under conditions of no or low competition (combined with government meddling). American cars really sucked in the '70s until Japanese imports forced them to clean up their game. A few years ago I took a flight to China with a stop in HK. The first leg was on United. The plane was an ancient 747 - the "entertainment" was giant CRT TV's hanging from the ceiling every 10 rows (but not giant enough that you could actually see them if you were in the 10th row). The stewardesses were equally ancient. One of them was a grandma on her last flight and her fellow crew members kept parading her around the cabin with balloons and such. It was nice for her but it didn't really do much for the passengers, which is why the crew is supposed to be there. Otherwise, the attendants were not very attentive - they seemed to do their best to hide out in the back as much as possible. The 2nd leg was a private Chinese carrier (Chinese state carriers suck in their own way). The aircraft was brand new. The pilots were Westerners. The stewardesses were all good looking slim young females. Even though it was a short flight they kept coming around constantly and there was full meal service with drinks, even in coach (and Haagen Dazs ice cream for dessert!). It felt like I had been transported back 50 years to when flying was still fun.

    Jack, I replied to some of this in the same comment as a reply to Mr. Badwhite.

    On the “respect mah authoritah” bit, I don’t agree with you in this case. I know plenty of flight attendants. They are basically “servers”, man, I hate that term, so, OK waitresses and waiters in the sky with flight benefits, but not much pay in tips. At least when hired, they really are “people people”, (Some were even more than that, hired out of the strip clubs in Memphis.) No, most of them really don’t like bossing people around. That’s the mentality of the people hired.

    they also hated them for being treated like criminals once you got on the plane (actually from the moment you arrived at the airport).

    TSA is a big part of this. If you want me to give the example of the dragged-off United Express passenger, I will, and you might understand more of this.

    If you took the government stupidity out of the picture, no, these people would act just as nice as they would if the were on the ground working at the bar or restaurant. Maybe they would even get more tips!

    The 747s have not been flying in US passenger service since the end of ’17. We got to ride on this classic beast, right near the end! The US carriers have the 777s as a workhorse and plenty of newer A-330s and some very decent long-range 767s. The 787s are cool, and have a hell of a range, but don’t carry as many people. There no difference with regard to the planes, US vs. International, except for how the 1st/business class is set up.

    On your last part, yes, remember, “you get what you pay for”. If you like it very nice, as I wrote to Intelligent D the other day, buy yourself a first class ticket. I bet if you compared it, inflation-adjusted, to back in the “good old days”, it would not be that much more than coach was relatively speaking. You are right though, that you won’t often get the slim 22 y/o’s serving you, no matter what. I don’t know what you can do about that besides, yes, buy a fractional share.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    OK waitresses and waiters in the sky with flight benefits
     
    RC plays AEN to AEN:



    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CHkgsYLs0DQ
  91. @Achmed E. Newman
    Exactly, Mr. Badwhite. The airlines will get in trouble for blatantly hiring only hotties. Now, even in China, you don't see hotties as, only from what I hear, you still will see in SE Asia, the Middle East, etc.

    For Jack, seniority is EVERYTHING in that business. The old biddy who started off as a 19 y/o hottie on the Lockheed Constellation (I kid, but not by too much!) can get more days off per month, the best trips to the primo destinations that she's not sick of yet, and I think can decide if she wants to be purser on the widebodies and make a few more buck.. or not. Of course, the hourly pay will be higher too. Why would she leave? It's not up to the airline.

    I understand fully how we got here, but that doesn’t mean that I like it. As I said before, old established orders tend to develop encrustations the way that ships develop barnacles. You start out as a young competitive industry with a young flexible workforce and a can-do attitude. Then the unions come in. The government comes in – a whole alphabet soup – EEOC and FAA and TSA and so on. Then you have management who are more interested quarterly earnings and in keeping up the stock price and collecting big option payments than they are in the long term health of the company. The workforce becomes alienated because they have been mistreated by management for so long (and the golden handcuff of seniority mean that people don’t move on with their lives when they should have – it’s hard to maintain enthusiasm for decades in the same job). At each step along the way, what the company has done makes sense in the context of its situation, but one day you wake up and you realize that all of your customers hate you.

    One of the reasons why Japan and Germany did so well after WWII is that the American bombers blasted away a lot of the encrustations in their society and gave them a fresh start. If we were not so far gone as a country, this crisis, could be for the airlines (and a number of other industries) a way to give their hulls a good scraping and turn themselves into more nimble organizations whom their customers might even like again. But I fear that won’t happen.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  92. @Achmed E. Newman
    Exactly, Mr. Badwhite. The airlines will get in trouble for blatantly hiring only hotties. Now, even in China, you don't see hotties as, only from what I hear, you still will see in SE Asia, the Middle East, etc.

    For Jack, seniority is EVERYTHING in that business. The old biddy who started off as a 19 y/o hottie on the Lockheed Constellation (I kid, but not by too much!) can get more days off per month, the best trips to the primo destinations that she's not sick of yet, and I think can decide if she wants to be purser on the widebodies and make a few more buck.. or not. Of course, the hourly pay will be higher too. Why would she leave? It's not up to the airline.

    A number of years ago I watched an interview with Lee Kuan Yew. While discussing Singapore Airlines he specifically said they hire attractive flight attendants because that’s what men prefer to see. American carriers know this as well of course, they just can’t do anything about it because “civil rights”.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    While discussing Singapore Airlines he specifically said they hire attractive flight attendants because that’s what men prefer to see. American carriers know this as well of course, they just can’t do anything about it because “civil rights”.
     
    The stews at old Northwest were Teamsters. And they looked it!

    Ugly people aren't a protected class. Fruit flies are. Straight men as a class would be quite all right with airlines hiring only young women, even though that would preclude them from those jobs. Yet airlines are infested with male "flight attendants", who are the most self-satisfied and annoying people at the airport.

    When you see "civil rights" action favoring "men's rights", more often than not the "man" isn't much of one. A rare victory for common sense came in the Rose Fund case in Boston:

    https://petervickery.com/2017/01/06/ok-to-exclude-gay-men-says-mcad/


    Can you even imagine a straight guy filing that case?

  93. Drive ins are coming back, only different. A good projector, some open space, audio over FM radio – movie time.

    Do a search on “pop up drive in” and see if there is one near you.

  94. @Achmed E. Newman
    Jack, I replied to some of this in the same comment as a reply to Mr. Badwhite.

    On the "respect mah authoritah" bit, I don't agree with you in this case. I know plenty of flight attendants. They are basically "servers", man, I hate that term, so, OK waitresses and waiters in the sky with flight benefits, but not much pay in tips. At least when hired, they really are "people people", (Some were even more than that, hired out of the strip clubs in Memphis.) No, most of them really don't like bossing people around. That's the mentality of the people hired.

    they also hated them for being treated like criminals once you got on the plane (actually from the moment you arrived at the airport).
     
    TSA is a big part of this. If you want me to give the example of the dragged-off United Express passenger, I will, and you might understand more of this.

    If you took the government stupidity out of the picture, no, these people would act just as nice as they would if the were on the ground working at the bar or restaurant. Maybe they would even get more tips!

    The 747s have not been flying in US passenger service since the end of '17. We got to ride on this classic beast, right near the end! The US carriers have the 777s as a workhorse and plenty of newer A-330s and some very decent long-range 767s. The 787s are cool, and have a hell of a range, but don't carry as many people. There no difference with regard to the planes, US vs. International, except for how the 1st/business class is set up.

    On your last part, yes, remember, "you get what you pay for". If you like it very nice, as I wrote to Intelligent D the other day, buy yourself a first class ticket. I bet if you compared it, inflation-adjusted, to back in the "good old days", it would not be that much more than coach was relatively speaking. You are right though, that you won't often get the slim 22 y/o's serving you, no matter what. I don't know what you can do about that besides, yes, buy a fractional share.

    OK waitresses and waiters in the sky with flight benefits

    RC plays AEN to AEN:

  95. @William Badwhite
    A number of years ago I watched an interview with Lee Kuan Yew. While discussing Singapore Airlines he specifically said they hire attractive flight attendants because that's what men prefer to see. American carriers know this as well of course, they just can't do anything about it because "civil rights".

    While discussing Singapore Airlines he specifically said they hire attractive flight attendants because that’s what men prefer to see. American carriers know this as well of course, they just can’t do anything about it because “civil rights”.

    The stews at old Northwest were Teamsters. And they looked it!

    Ugly people aren’t a protected class. Fruit flies are. Straight men as a class would be quite all right with airlines hiring only young women, even though that would preclude them from those jobs. Yet airlines are infested with male “flight attendants”, who are the most self-satisfied and annoying people at the airport.

    When you see “civil rights” action favoring “men’s rights”, more often than not the “man” isn’t much of one. A rare victory for common sense came in the Rose Fund case in Boston:

    https://petervickery.com/2017/01/06/ok-to-exclude-gay-men-says-mcad/

    Can you even imagine a straight guy filing that case?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I went to A&P school with a blackish-black guy who insisted that he was the only straight male FA on his entire airline. He hired on as a ticket agent and got talked into going to stew school and of course detested the job, but wanted to stay in the industry, and knew full well the pilot route wasn't for him. So he went to A&P school. I heard he had to change airlines but got a job and did okay in the shop.

    Of course he could have been "on the down low" but he was married with two kids and he did not evince any gay tendencies. He was probably of average intelligence for the students in my class and had good aptitude. We did not have any male homosexuals as far as I could tell in the school.


    We called male FA's, "BBS"-Ball Bearing Stewardesses.
  96. anon[324] • Disclaimer says:

    iSteve
    What does America’s suburban/exurban economy possess in abundance? Among other resources, parking lots.

    Plus warehouses. Yes, warehouses! Especially warehouses on dead end roads. The perfect place for informal socializing.

    https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/Police-shut-down-SF-nightclub-operating-during-15195943.php

    So, hmm, you might say to yourself “Who were these hardy partiers?” Was it a square dance group? Maybe country swing dangers? Ballroom dancers?

    Dunno. Total mystery. The Chronic never says much.

    They noticed as many as 20 to 30 cars an hour parked near the site, saw strobe lights and heard loud music. Surveillance video showed more than 100 people entering the club and security guards frisking each one.

    Oh, hmm, deeper mystery. Maybe the owner of the building or the lessees could clear this up?

    Herrera’s office said the landlord, whose name was redacted from the copy of the warrant obtained by The Chronicle, cooperated fully with his office and the police. The name of the tenant, who was said to be operating a janitorial business at the site, was also redacted from the warrant along with the license plate numbers of several patrons of the club. An attorney who represented one of the property owners could not immediately be reached for comment.

    Wow, that’s a lot of redacting and no commenting. The mystery gets deeper and darker! Who are these mysterious people? What are they doing there?

    On Saturday, before the club could open for the night, officers from the Police Department’s tactical unit and Bayview Station entered the building and seized DJ equipment, two fog machines, nine gambling machines, $670 in cash, two pool tables, bins of liquor, cases of beer, bar furniture and other nightclub-related items, the city attorney’s office said.

    I forgot to mention that according to the complaint, this party was happening between 2 AM and 6 AM….what, no foam cannon?

    The club had no name, but it could have been called “The Lost Time Horizon”, or something like that.

  97. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    While discussing Singapore Airlines he specifically said they hire attractive flight attendants because that’s what men prefer to see. American carriers know this as well of course, they just can’t do anything about it because “civil rights”.
     
    The stews at old Northwest were Teamsters. And they looked it!

    Ugly people aren't a protected class. Fruit flies are. Straight men as a class would be quite all right with airlines hiring only young women, even though that would preclude them from those jobs. Yet airlines are infested with male "flight attendants", who are the most self-satisfied and annoying people at the airport.

    When you see "civil rights" action favoring "men's rights", more often than not the "man" isn't much of one. A rare victory for common sense came in the Rose Fund case in Boston:

    https://petervickery.com/2017/01/06/ok-to-exclude-gay-men-says-mcad/


    Can you even imagine a straight guy filing that case?

    I went to A&P school with a blackish-black guy who insisted that he was the only straight male FA on his entire airline. He hired on as a ticket agent and got talked into going to stew school and of course detested the job, but wanted to stay in the industry, and knew full well the pilot route wasn’t for him. So he went to A&P school. I heard he had to change airlines but got a job and did okay in the shop.

    Of course he could have been “on the down low” but he was married with two kids and he did not evince any gay tendencies. He was probably of average intelligence for the students in my class and had good aptitude. We did not have any male homosexuals as far as I could tell in the school.

    We called male FA’s, “BBS”-Ball Bearing Stewardesses.

  98. I don’t see it Steve.

    I don’t think there will be much in the way of blue collar work retro fitting structures. That requires serious capital investments….landlords are already pinched by the move to online commerce hitting “brick and mortar” stores hard….why would they invest heavy money when there’s at best minimal incentive to do so?

    Thibgs don’t look “up” for the medium or long term. The blogger Victor Davis Hanson had a great blog post the other yr where he noted building code enforcement was largely targeted at white ppl because 1) we’re stupid enough to comply and 2) we’re the only suckers left willing to pay up the fines…..

    He used as his example how fly-by-night latino food shacks& food trucks aren’t leaned on while stupid white business owners in strip malls and actual buildings are routinely harassed and fined….

    Its like when i got a stop sign ticket few yrs back….the judge fined me $275 because he knew by my work uniform i wore to traffic court that I’m a working stiff sucker & easy mark.

    The crackhead they brought in with shackles on was read a litany of charges& fines. I recall it being 3 or 4 grand of fines. The judge “suspended” lol his fines & only charged him 2 weeks in the county jail & a paltry $60 fine for serious drug offenses…..im honest and i work…..im the sucker….

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    No argument here, Neoconned, just the word for this is anarcho-tyranny.
  99. @Jack D
    A lot of this has to do with the airline's reaction to irrational consumer behavior in the age of online ticket shopping. Specifically that people will always buy the 1st (lowest price) fare shown in a search engine (the same reason why back in the Yellow Pages days there were a lot of companies with names like AAA Acme). They could make you sit out on the wing and people would still buy it as long as it was the cheapest fare. So you "unbundle" the fare by not including as many things as possible to get to the top of the search pile, and then you add those things back in later after the fare is already selected - checked baggage, carry on baggage, seat choice, meals, the ability to change dates, a decent amount of leg room, an "energy surcharge" (we'll sell you the seat but if you want plane to fly then the fuel will cost you extra), etc. Whatever they can dream up. Originally the airlines didn't believe that this would work - they scoffed at Spirit when they tried this but Spirit was tremendously successful so when you can't beat 'em, join em.

    Lately hotels have taken to the same tricks and they add nonsense fees like "resort fees" which are nothing but a disguised part of the room cost, just to drive up their search engine position that is keyed off of base rate. Unlike airline luggage fees, you can't even opt out. Hotels that are distinctly not "resort" like add these fees anyway. Car dealers also have nonsense like "documentation fees" for the same reason.

    The FTC could put an end to a lot of this nonsense by forcing the search engines to show and rank according to the out the door price and not just the base charge. It's really deceptive when your $50 room actually costs $100.

    I rented a Uhaul truck recently and there was a $5 “environmental fee.”

    It would not bother me one bit if I never got on another airplane as long as I lived. I like a lot of the modern world, but flying is probably the most dehumanizing experience out there. Stand in line, show your id, stand in another line, take off your shoes and get irradiated, stand in another line, show your boarding pass, etc., all while listening to disembodied voices telling you to “say something if you see something”, “in the event of a water landing”, etc.

  100. @Neoconned
    I don't see it Steve.

    I don't think there will be much in the way of blue collar work retro fitting structures. That requires serious capital investments....landlords are already pinched by the move to online commerce hitting "brick and mortar" stores hard....why would they invest heavy money when there's at best minimal incentive to do so?

    Thibgs don't look "up" for the medium or long term. The blogger Victor Davis Hanson had a great blog post the other yr where he noted building code enforcement was largely targeted at white ppl because 1) we're stupid enough to comply and 2) we're the only suckers left willing to pay up the fines.....

    He used as his example how fly-by-night latino food shacks& food trucks aren't leaned on while stupid white business owners in strip malls and actual buildings are routinely harassed and fined....

    Its like when i got a stop sign ticket few yrs back....the judge fined me $275 because he knew by my work uniform i wore to traffic court that I'm a working stiff sucker & easy mark.

    The crackhead they brought in with shackles on was read a litany of charges& fines. I recall it being 3 or 4 grand of fines. The judge "suspended" lol his fines & only charged him 2 weeks in the county jail & a paltry $60 fine for serious drug offenses.....im honest and i work.....im the sucker....

    No argument here, Neoconned, just the word for this is anarcho-tyranny.

    • Thanks: Neoconned

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