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From the Daily Mail:

The most popular drugs taken by cheaters in the Olympic Games: Expert reveals that sprinters use steroids to gain muscle mass while archers prefer beta blockers to remain calm during play

A health expert reveals what performance enhancing drugs are most popular among athletes at the Olympic games

Steroids are most popular among athletes in sports that require a lot of muscle mass such as sprinting

A hormone called EPO is most common among athletes who participate in sports that require endurance

Beta blockers, an anti-anxiety medication, helps athletes concentrate in sports like archery by lowering blood pressure

By MANSUR SHAHEEN FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

PUBLISHED: 17:18 EDT, 22 July 2021 | UPDATED: 17:22 EDT, 22 July 2021

I’ve been an outspoken critic of performance-enhancing drugs since the 1990s.

A question I’ve been wondering about lately, however, is: What if PEDs really aren’t that deadly? What if they provide more health benefits than their costs?

For example, Ken Caminiti won the National League Most Valuable Player award in baseball in 1996 by taking an enormous amount of steroids after the All Star break. He was dead by 2004.

Florence Griffith-Joyner got tired of finishing second in the 200m dash to women who were obviously on steroids in 1984-1987, so she called up Ben Johnson for advice in late 1987 and set records that still stand in 1988, but died in 1998.

On the other hand, most of the other obvious steroid cheaters of the 20th Century, such as Ben Johnson, Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens, and Barry Bonds are still around.

Similarly, the famous East African runners who set (presumably) EPO-assisted records in the mid-1990s apparently are still around.

The golf tours refuse to test for beta blockers, which are notoriously used by concert musicians with stage fright, because they are great drugs that have saved millions of lives. The golf authorities don’t want to kill off their best golfers by denying them an excellent drug.

So, where are we in 2021? What if we’ve invented drugs that can help you Live Your Best Life without killing you very much?

 
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  1. Ken Caminiti had a serious cocaine problem. He tested multiple times while under probation. Sounds as though he was a heavy user of cocaine, and steroid use may have played a relatively minor role in his health problems.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    @eded

    Yeah, and I'm pretty sure he actually overdosed fatally on a speedball, Belushi-style.

  2. So what if the drugs are safe?

    Cheating is cheating.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Sick of Orcs


    So what if the drugs are safe?

    Cheating is cheating.
     
    1. If they're safe, then why can't people use them in their ordinary lives? Cosmetic surgery is ordinary now.

    2. Rules on what cheating is can change. I read that Usain Bolt is very upset by a new style of running spikes because they will mean someone takes his records. This is understandable, but perhaps spectators would enjoy seeing people run even faster.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Sick of Orcs

    , @theMann
    @Sick of Orcs

    Bullshit.

    If using PEDs is cheating, then weight training, hiring a Nutritionist, Biofeedback, and a host of other actions are cheating.

    Telling people to be the best competitors in the world, but dont take these drugs because "cheating", is simply idiotic. They are focused on being the best in the world at something, so they are going to take PEDs.

    Making them hide it is the cheating.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs, @Eric Novak, @Drapetomaniac

    , @Boomthorkell
    @Sick of Orcs

    I advocate hosting 6 kinds of Olympics:

    The Eugenics Olympics: Only tools allowed are vitamin supplements, carefully selected diets, and training regimens. Mutants allowed, but no intersex. Separated by Sex, no trans allowed. This is to see what a perfected standard(ish) human can achieve.

    The Bio-Juicer Olympics: How far can a performance enhancing drug or cocktail of drugs push the human form? What about extra organs? No sex separation, all allowed, including trans.

    The Cyber-Olympics: Any non-biological or PED based alteration: Blade Runners, etc.

    The Para-Olympics: Separated into two categories with non-cyber enhanced physical cripples, and the mentally\neurologically disabled or damaged.

    The Super Olympics: anyone can participate, but the most exciting will be Bio-Juicer against Cyber, I think.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Reg Cæsar, @Alfa158, @Sick of Orcs

  3. I think part of the problem is that even if performance enhancing drugs can help health in certain dosages, they’d be pushed far beyond that for competitive purposes.

    Maybe the longer term solution is to have some kind of controlled/approved dosing centres -‘Official Olympic Healthy Doping Clinics’ with official Olympic PED doctors- obviously would still be open for abuse, but keeping regular tabs on things might actually help catch ppl pushing the envelope beyond what’d be allowed.

  4. An occasion to remind that everyone else who has ever gotten under 10 sec in 100m records has been done for PEDs except Bolt who also holds the record against the cheaters by a big margin.

    Yet the general public is unaware that Bolts teammates and coach were engaged in doping and that everyone who has ever come close to his times has also been caught doping.

    The suggestion is that Jamaica’s huge breakout in the 2000s was due to doping coaches and due to the fact that drug testing was easier to get away with in some countries (Jamaica) than others. And it’s sudden decline was due to it no longer being able to get away with it.

    Bolt gets a pass because he doesn’t look like a roided up guy (Unlike the second fastest man in the world and his teammate who even got the nickname ‘Beast’) and his charismatic. But if he didn’t use PEDs then it’s amazing that nobody has ever gotten close to his time without them.

  5. The best drugs for each sport are listed here: https://www.wada-ama.org/en/what-we-do/the-prohibited-list

    (Though research of course continues.)

    I too dislike PEDs, because the more cheating there is, the less interesting it gets. On the other hand, if the authorities turned a blind eye to rampant cheating, PEDs, bribery, trash can banging, and so on, then — apart from removing the competitive accomplishment part of sports — the hardest hit would be gamblers and advertisers. So perhaps it would be acceptable after all? Like, just play for the love of the game guys and give trophies to everyone.

    • Agree: Old and Grumpy
    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Pericles


    I too dislike PEDs, because the more cheating there is, the less interesting it gets.
     
    Well, at the end of the day, keeping sports interesting is, at the very least, not as high a priority as health for the masses. I'm not sure spectator sports are particularly good for people anyway. The Olympics are fine, because it’s only every four years. But people sitting on the sofa watching 162 baseball games a year is probably not ideal.

    Replies: @Pericles

  6. @eded
    Ken Caminiti had a serious cocaine problem. He tested multiple times while under probation. Sounds as though he was a heavy user of cocaine, and steroid use may have played a relatively minor role in his health problems.

    Replies: @slumber_j

    Yeah, and I’m pretty sure he actually overdosed fatally on a speedball, Belushi-style.

  7. The Olympic games used to be a wonderful celebration of amateur sport, but since it became professionalized and drugified and more and more professional sports have been added, it has become more and more tedious.

    As a 9-year-old boy I was inspired by the Rome Olympics of 1960, some of which I saw on black and white TV. My friends and I staged mini 10,000 meters races, sprints, javelin throwing events, bike races, swimming races, and other events.

    It is now no longer about just winning a faux gold metal for the sake of competing and taking part, but all about the money that can be made after victory by doing endorsements and personal appearances, which is why so many athletes cheat by using drugs that are not allowed in their respective sports.

    I should also point out that in most countries using steroid drugs for sporting enhancement is an illegal drug offense, although you hardly ever hear about athletes and their prescribers being prosecuted. Marion Jones was a big exception.

    Every sport is tainted to some extent. When Tiger Woods became muscle bound, people suspected that he was using steroids, which seemed to affect his behavior.

    Now we have Bryson de Chambeau starting to look like the incredible Hulk, and having temper tantrums to match.

    For years we have had Serena Williams also looking like something straight outta Wakanda, and the NFL looking like the WWW.

    The greatest cyclist of all time was also of course a drug cheat.

    The end result is that children are much less interested in sports now than they used to be, and that future generations of sports fans will fade away.

    Only soccer seems to be relatively untainted.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @Jonathan Mason

    From Wikipedia, with regard to drug use in soccer:


    Italy

    In Serie A, Parma's Manuele Blasi was banned after a failed test for nandrolone in September 2003.

    According to the Gazzetta dello Sport, the death of four former Fiorentina players over the past 19 years were suspicious. Pino Longoni died at age 63 after suffering from an irreversible degenerative illness which narrowed the arteries in his brain; Bruno Beatrice died of leukaemia in 1987 aged 39; Nello Saltutti died after suffering a heart attack in 2003 aged 56; and Ugo Ferrante died in November 2004 of cancer of the tonsils aged 59.

    The Italian newspaper claimed their illnesses may have been brought on by Cortex and Micoren, drugs that were allegedly administered by Fiorentina's medical staff in the 1970s.

    However, Turin prosecutor Raffaele Guariniello, who has led Italy's fight against drug-taking in sport since 1998, said without hard evidence the Gazzetta's claims that the deaths might be linked to doping were presumptuous.[25]
     
    In the early 2000's in England Romanian player Adrian Mutu was found to have tested positive for cocaine and was eventually fired by his club, who sought damages from him for breach of contract.

    The solution seems relatively simple for team sports, simply that the standard club employment contract should contain clauses regarding the use of performance enhancing and/or recreational drugs and that a player who tests positive or does not comply with testing is in breach of contract and liable to termination and substantial damages.

    In individual sports, it is a bit more tricky, but I think performance enhancing drug use should be a strict liability offense. If your urine contains illegal metabolites, you should be banned from the sport in perpetuity even if you are the tragic victim of steroid poisoning by a jealous spouse.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    , @kaganovitch
    @Jonathan Mason

    My friends and I staged mini 10,000 meters races, sprints, javelin throwing events, bike races, swimming races, and other events.

    What exactly is a mini 10,000 meter race? Is it the same as a hundred meter race?

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    , @Old Prude
    @Jonathan Mason

    Remember the Olympics tried to get rid of wrestling - the noblest of sports and one of the oldest and blessed with the impretur of the original Olypmians. That tells you all you need to know: The new olympics is a fag fest...

    , @Rouetheday
    @Jonathan Mason

    The greatest cyclist of all time was Eddy Merckx. There is no argument among people who follow the sport closely. Presumably you are referring to Lance Armstrong. Though, perhaps not, as Merckx was himself penalized on several occasions for use of barbiturates. Feel free to clear things up for us...

    , @sb
    @Jonathan Mason

    I'm just wondering who you think is the greatest cyclist of all time .
    Just about everyone who follows these things around the world would say that would be Eddy Merckx . But maybe it's different where you come from ?

    Replies: @Drapetomaniac

  8. As a former infantryman, this question has always irritated me. Why not use drugs that enhance strength, increase endurance, and reduce anxiety starting in pre-deployment and ending afterwards? It would be easy enough to issue them along with food and medicine.

    Infantry, as well as other soldiers, are subject to a notoriously debilitating environment. It could easily be a worthwhile tradeoff between negative and nebulous long term health effects versus immediate improvements in mission capability.

    It would also be a great for scientific studies on life enhancement through pharmaceuticals. Scott Alexander likes to discuss the cognitive enhancement implications of psychiatry. We should be doing something similar for physical enhancements.

    I know the USAF uses drugs for performance enhancement. Of course, the Army doesn’t even want to increase the protein content of their rations, much less issue creatine, despite the obvious and well established benefits on muscle growth and retention for both those things.

    • Agree: Old Prude
    • Replies: @SimpleSong
    @anon12

    The argument for limiting PEDs in the Olympics is at the end of the day, the Olympics don't really matter. It has zero effect on humanity whether somebody runs 0.01 seconds faster in some race or not. It's just entertainment. And for whatever reason, people want this to be a competition between athletes, not between doctors. In the same way that NASCAR proscribes the allowed car designs to make their sport a competition between drivers, not engineers.

    In things that actually matter it is socially acceptable to use PEDs--note how basically any job requiring intense concentration on a somewhat boring task will have a big coffee pot in the breakroom. Unfortunately there are very few PEDs that don't have significant downsides--your body evolved to have a particular level of Epo or testosterone for a reason.

    That said, I would actually be more inclined to watch the Olympics if you could let the biologists go wild, gene enhancements, etc., as long as they were upfront about it.

    Replies: @Trinity, @kaganovitch, @Rosie

    , @JerseyJeffersonian
    @anon12

    Well, it was balls to the wall for the Nazis with methamphetamine. It had its downside. Read more at this link, and use your favorite search engine (DuckDuckG.com works for me) to learn more about that specific topic, or expand your search to other projected pathways to performance enhancement such as genetic modifications (sounds fun):

    https://allthatsinteresting.com/pervitin-nazi-drugs

  9. Beta blockers, an anti-anxiety medication, helps athletes concentrate in sports like archery by lowering blood pressure

    When I was a newbie on the skeet range, back in the late seventies, one of the oldtimers told of a friend who had tried beta blockers to keep his nerves more steady to help him improve his score:

    “Did they work?” he asked the friend.

    “Oh, yes” the friend answered “I couldn’t care less whenever I missed a target!”

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Mr Mox

    That's what pro golfers on beta blockers tend to say: the pills reduce their intensity.

    Replies: @Mr Mox

    , @JerseyJeffersonian
    @Mr Mox

    I am a fairly high level amateur oboist, playing challenging classical repertoire. At times, the demands can provoke a bit of performance anxiety, and some years back I obtained an experimental scrip for a beta blocker to determine if this could be helpful. The answer is yes, but I have used it very sparingly over the succeeding years. I am asthmatic, and more than occasional use is contraindicated, and only certain circumstances dictated its use, anyway.

    The trick is dosage, just a little takes the edge off, but leaves one competent as an executant, not indifferent to the result, which is the entire point. Sounds like dude was enjoying the buzz instead of the absence of performance anxiety.

  10. Am I wrong to suspect many of our younger writers and politicians are enhanced by Adderall and Ambien? Which might explain some of the excess.

    But I sure could have used some of that help with “focus” when I was in college. Instead all we had was the lousy Mexican pot and white crosses, if you could find them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Carol


    Am I wrong to suspect many of our younger writers and politicians are enhanced by Adderall and Ambien? Which might explain some of the excess.
     
    What does Ambien enhance?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Carol

    , @Pericles
    @Carol

    Scientists also abuse these sorts of drugs, which can be unfortunate if the drug fiend beats out someone better for tenure. Perhaps their tenured employment should be conditional on continuing their drug abuse, at least until retirement.

  11. @Mr Mox

    Beta blockers, an anti-anxiety medication, helps athletes concentrate in sports like archery by lowering blood pressure
     
    When I was a newbie on the skeet range, back in the late seventies, one of the oldtimers told of a friend who had tried beta blockers to keep his nerves more steady to help him improve his score:

    "Did they work?" he asked the friend.

    "Oh, yes" the friend answered "I couldn't care less whenever I missed a target!"

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JerseyJeffersonian

    That’s what pro golfers on beta blockers tend to say: the pills reduce their intensity.

    • Replies: @Mr Mox
    @Steve Sailer


    The first Olympian ever disqualified for doping was a Swede, Hans-Gunnar Liljenwall, who had two beers before a pistol marksmanship competition at the 1968 summer games in Mexico City.
     
    https://whyy.org/segments/when-a-bit-of-booze-is-just-the-boost-you-need/

    I was surprised to see alcohol was removed from the doping list a few years ago - as alcohol was/is a well known way to help steading both the gun and the nerves in pistol matches.
    It turns out the change was made for a reason: now the competitors can be tested before matches, not after, as with normal doping tests - which probably is a good thing when firearms are involved.

    I can personally confirm a single drink can improve your pistol score - and spoil your shotgun score!
    Different strokes for different sports...

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

  12. Anonymous[299] • Disclaimer says:

    The golf tours refuse to test for beta blockers, which are notoriously used by concert musicians with stage fright, because they are great drugs that have saved millions of lives.

    What is so great about them? How have they saved lives? And how do you know the cost-benefit balance on these but not the other PEDs?

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Anonymous

    They are prescribed to people with high blood pressure. Saving millions is no exaggeration .

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @anon

  13. Anonymous[299] • Disclaimer says:
    @Carol
    Am I wrong to suspect many of our younger writers and politicians are enhanced by Adderall and Ambien? Which might explain some of the excess.

    But I sure could have used some of that help with "focus" when I was in college. Instead all we had was the lousy Mexican pot and white crosses, if you could find them.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Pericles

    Am I wrong to suspect many of our younger writers and politicians are enhanced by Adderall and Ambien? Which might explain some of the excess.

    What does Ambien enhance?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Sleep.

    Replies: @Wizard of Oz

    , @Carol
    @Anonymous

    Ability to sleep after a long caffeine-and-adderal-fueled day.

  14. @Jonathan Mason
    The Olympic games used to be a wonderful celebration of amateur sport, but since it became professionalized and drugified and more and more professional sports have been added, it has become more and more tedious.

    As a 9-year-old boy I was inspired by the Rome Olympics of 1960, some of which I saw on black and white TV. My friends and I staged mini 10,000 meters races, sprints, javelin throwing events, bike races, swimming races, and other events.

    It is now no longer about just winning a faux gold metal for the sake of competing and taking part, but all about the money that can be made after victory by doing endorsements and personal appearances, which is why so many athletes cheat by using drugs that are not allowed in their respective sports.

    I should also point out that in most countries using steroid drugs for sporting enhancement is an illegal drug offense, although you hardly ever hear about athletes and their prescribers being prosecuted. Marion Jones was a big exception.

    Every sport is tainted to some extent. When Tiger Woods became muscle bound, people suspected that he was using steroids, which seemed to affect his behavior.

    Now we have Bryson de Chambeau starting to look like the incredible Hulk, and having temper tantrums to match.

    For years we have had Serena Williams also looking like something straight outta Wakanda, and the NFL looking like the WWW.

    The greatest cyclist of all time was also of course a drug cheat.

    The end result is that children are much less interested in sports now than they used to be, and that future generations of sports fans will fade away.

    Only soccer seems to be relatively untainted.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @kaganovitch, @Old Prude, @Rouetheday, @sb

    From Wikipedia, with regard to drug use in soccer:

    Italy

    In Serie A, Parma’s Manuele Blasi was banned after a failed test for nandrolone in September 2003.

    According to the Gazzetta dello Sport, the death of four former Fiorentina players over the past 19 years were suspicious. Pino Longoni died at age 63 after suffering from an irreversible degenerative illness which narrowed the arteries in his brain; Bruno Beatrice died of leukaemia in 1987 aged 39; Nello Saltutti died after suffering a heart attack in 2003 aged 56; and Ugo Ferrante died in November 2004 of cancer of the tonsils aged 59.

    The Italian newspaper claimed their illnesses may have been brought on by Cortex and Micoren, drugs that were allegedly administered by Fiorentina’s medical staff in the 1970s.

    However, Turin prosecutor Raffaele Guariniello, who has led Italy’s fight against drug-taking in sport since 1998, said without hard evidence the Gazzetta’s claims that the deaths might be linked to doping were presumptuous.[25]

    In the early 2000’s in England Romanian player Adrian Mutu was found to have tested positive for cocaine and was eventually fired by his club, who sought damages from him for breach of contract.

    The solution seems relatively simple for team sports, simply that the standard club employment contract should contain clauses regarding the use of performance enhancing and/or recreational drugs and that a player who tests positive or does not comply with testing is in breach of contract and liable to termination and substantial damages.

    In individual sports, it is a bit more tricky, but I think performance enhancing drug use should be a strict liability offense. If your urine contains illegal metabolites, you should be banned from the sport in perpetuity even if you are the tragic victim of steroid poisoning by a jealous spouse.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @Jonathan Mason


    The Italian newspaper claimed their illnesses may have been brought on by Cortex and Micoren, drugs that were allegedly administered by Fiorentina’s medical staff in the 1970s.
     
    The PED problem in earnest goes back to the 1960s as your article alludes. One of the first was Cortisone, a powerful painkiller. It aids quick recovery, but the user should rest during treatment. Medical opinion now is that you should only have 3 injections per lifetime. If you are found to have cortisone in your body, cycling authorities will nowadays ban you.
    In the 1960s, it was regarded as a wonder drug, and training and playing whilst on the drug were regarded as normal.

    Here is a quote from wikipedia concerning top 1960s Scotland striker, Allan McGraw.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_McGraw

    McGraw left Morton for Hibernian, where he scored a goal which meant that the club reached a League Cup final. He took a number of pain killing injections in order to play while injured. This ruined his knees, causing great pain and necessitating the use of walking sticks for the rest of his life.

    In one season alone, he had 17 cortisone injections in his knees, and continued to play throughout. The pain has been very acute since and Mr McGraw has several times contemplated amputation of both legs above the knee.

  15. @Anonymous
    @Carol


    Am I wrong to suspect many of our younger writers and politicians are enhanced by Adderall and Ambien? Which might explain some of the excess.
     
    What does Ambien enhance?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Carol

    Sleep.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    @Steve Sailer

    Actors and models should have their mouths inspected before every outing to make sure that they haven't gone on with the expensive orthodontic treatment mother started them on.

  16. @Sick of Orcs
    So what if the drugs are safe?

    Cheating is cheating.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @theMann, @Boomthorkell

    So what if the drugs are safe?

    Cheating is cheating.

    1. If they’re safe, then why can’t people use them in their ordinary lives? Cosmetic surgery is ordinary now.

    2. Rules on what cheating is can change. I read that Usain Bolt is very upset by a new style of running spikes because they will mean someone takes his records. This is understandable, but perhaps spectators would enjoy seeing people run even faster.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @Triteleia Laxa

    No one is going to directly notice if all the runners are running 1% faster or whatever. The extra speed might show up in their times but it would be impossible to directly perceive.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    , @Sick of Orcs
    @Triteleia Laxa


    1. If they’re safe, then why can’t people use them in their ordinary lives?
     
    Many drugs are used, under medical supervision.

    2. Rules on what cheating is can change.
     

    True, but using banned substances remains cheating.

    perhaps spectators would enjoy seeing people run even faster.
     
    I don't disagree.

    SNL All-Drugs Olympics

    https://youtu.be/jAdG-iTilWU

  17. @Anonymous
    @Carol


    Am I wrong to suspect many of our younger writers and politicians are enhanced by Adderall and Ambien? Which might explain some of the excess.
     
    What does Ambien enhance?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Carol

    Ability to sleep after a long caffeine-and-adderal-fueled day.

  18. Death by steroids is usually EXAGGERATED and PURPOSELY misdiagnosed and so is the mythical “roid rage.” Steroids and (((coronavirus))) have been FALSELY attributed to more deaths than cancer. lolololol.

    Bodybuilders and professional rasslers, both notorious steroid abusers, probably can attribute a lot of their health problems to being overweight and abusing just as many recreational drugs and alcohol as steroids. Of course bad genetics can be attributed to heart conditions, male pattern baldness, diabetes, etc., all things associated with “steroid abuse” but a person who never touches a steroid or any other drug can develop these things if past family members suffered from these issues.

    Both bodybuilders and rasslers have a lot of people who die relatively young. Your heart actually has a harder time pumping blood with a 300lb muscle man than a 300lb bucket of lard and goo so the massive bodybuilder with a relatively low fat percentage is putting his heart through more of a workload than the Oreo scarfing 300lb whale with a 46″ waist. And pain medication contributes to a lot of rassler’s problems, those guys really beat up their bodies. And lest we keep forgetting genetics. I knew a health nut who biked, ran, lifted light weights in his garage, was super strict about weight and diet and he keeled over from a heart attack at fifty something. This guy wouldn’t have taken anything stronger than a multivitamin.

    I can remember even in the late Seventies when guys at the YMCA of all places were taking Dianabol which was perfectly legal back then. Hell, they had an Olympic weightlifting team at this small YMCA. Lee James, a silver medalist in Montreal got his start there and another lifter competed in the Seoul Olympics. Had some decent gymnasts there as well. Anyhow, they had one guy there who did the Olympic lifts and the guy sucked hard. He took Dianabol and the kid never got any better nor did his body change much. The guy was weak and steroids did little if anything to improve him. Steroids are not a miracle drug that will produce champions or make you something you are not. You have to have some level of skill, talent or physicality. I am sure the guys that went on to the Olympics PROBABLY took something a little more advanced than D-bol but from what I saw back then, Dianabol certainly didn’t produce any over the top results. Of course now they have designer steroids, growth hormone and all kinds of weird shit.

    Who knows when this shit hit sports like golf, long distance bicycling, and baseball. Used to be a baseball player wouldn’t even lift weights much less take steroids. I can remember watching Dick Allen chain smoke cigarettes, Mickey Lolich waddle out to the mound and pitch a shutout, and looking at how fat Boog Powell looked in those Orioles all orange uniforms from the Seventies. Speaking of chain smoking world class athletes, Carlos Monzon was a multiple pack smoker a day even in training and it never hurt his stamina. Dave Rigert, Soviet weightlifter smoked a great deal as well and while a weightlifter doesn’t need wind like a world class boxer, smoking nor steroids didn’t really cause health issues with Rigert. GENETICS > steroid abuse.

    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @Trinity


    Speaking of chain smoking world class athletes, Carlos Monzon was a multiple pack smoker a day even in training and it never hurt his stamina. Dave Rigert, Soviet weightlifter smoked a great deal as well and while a weightlifter doesn’t need wind like a world class boxer, smoking nor steroids didn’t really cause health issues with Rigert.
     
    There is nearly no chance this claim is accurate. Those fellows would have improved their lives if they dumped the cigarettes. P~.999

    Replies: @Trinity

  19. Stonewall Jackson [AKA "Joker"] says:

    Have to ask, who cares anymore? Sports are just another corporate exercise. In virtue signaling bullshit.

    An interesting thing though was the comments to the purple blue green haired lesbian soccer team from the country formerly known as the USA on the various big media outlet youtube channels.

    Would you have guessed there would come a time when people are rooting against the hideous shits that play for the national team and rooting for them to loose? The joy of seeing Team LesboUSA loose to Sweden was palpable.

    The men’s US hockey team in 1980 is gone. I would support the Soviet or East German women’s soccer team over that idiot purple haired bulldyke’s at this point.

    • Agree: Drapetomaniac
  20. @Carol
    Am I wrong to suspect many of our younger writers and politicians are enhanced by Adderall and Ambien? Which might explain some of the excess.

    But I sure could have used some of that help with "focus" when I was in college. Instead all we had was the lousy Mexican pot and white crosses, if you could find them.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Pericles

    Scientists also abuse these sorts of drugs, which can be unfortunate if the drug fiend beats out someone better for tenure. Perhaps their tenured employment should be conditional on continuing their drug abuse, at least until retirement.

  21. @Sick of Orcs
    So what if the drugs are safe?

    Cheating is cheating.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @theMann, @Boomthorkell

    Bullshit.

    If using PEDs is cheating, then weight training, hiring a Nutritionist, Biofeedback, and a host of other actions are cheating.

    Telling people to be the best competitors in the world, but dont take these drugs because “cheating”, is simply idiotic. They are focused on being the best in the world at something, so they are going to take PEDs.

    Making them hide it is the cheating.

    • Disagree: Drapetomaniac
    • Replies: @Sick of Orcs
    @theMann


    Telling people to be the best competitors in the world, but dont take these drugs because “cheating”, is simply idiotic. They are focused on being the best in the world at something, so they are going to take PEDs.
     
    Not playing by the rules is cheating. Your tangent about what and what shouldn't be considered cheating is valid but doesn't change that.

    There have to be agreed-upon rules and standards, otherwise you might as well "compete" in the Tour de France on a motorcycle.
    , @Eric Novak
    @theMann

    Comparing steroid use to consulting with a nutritionist is moronic. You must have narrowing of blood vessels in the brain yourself.

    , @Drapetomaniac
    @theMann

    I hope they don't discriminate against me when I wear my full-body powered exo-skeleton to compete in the next Olympics. Wet technology is so Greek Olympics.

    Compared to other animals H. sapiens isn't very good at much except abstract logical thinking. Even that is only because of a small portion of the population.

  22. @anon12
    As a former infantryman, this question has always irritated me. Why not use drugs that enhance strength, increase endurance, and reduce anxiety starting in pre-deployment and ending afterwards? It would be easy enough to issue them along with food and medicine.

    Infantry, as well as other soldiers, are subject to a notoriously debilitating environment. It could easily be a worthwhile tradeoff between negative and nebulous long term health effects versus immediate improvements in mission capability.

    It would also be a great for scientific studies on life enhancement through pharmaceuticals. Scott Alexander likes to discuss the cognitive enhancement implications of psychiatry. We should be doing something similar for physical enhancements.

    I know the USAF uses drugs for performance enhancement. Of course, the Army doesn't even want to increase the protein content of their rations, much less issue creatine, despite the obvious and well established benefits on muscle growth and retention for both those things.

    Replies: @SimpleSong, @JerseyJeffersonian

    The argument for limiting PEDs in the Olympics is at the end of the day, the Olympics don’t really matter. It has zero effect on humanity whether somebody runs 0.01 seconds faster in some race or not. It’s just entertainment. And for whatever reason, people want this to be a competition between athletes, not between doctors. In the same way that NASCAR proscribes the allowed car designs to make their sport a competition between drivers, not engineers.

    In things that actually matter it is socially acceptable to use PEDs–note how basically any job requiring intense concentration on a somewhat boring task will have a big coffee pot in the breakroom. Unfortunately there are very few PEDs that don’t have significant downsides–your body evolved to have a particular level of Epo or testosterone for a reason.

    That said, I would actually be more inclined to watch the Olympics if you could let the biologists go wild, gene enhancements, etc., as long as they were upfront about it.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @SimpleSong

    Well no one has a problem with "skrippers" being physically enhanced with fake tits. hehe.

    , @kaganovitch
    @SimpleSong

    note how basically any job requiring intense concentration on a somewhat boring task will have a big coffee pot in the breakroom.

    Also any job not requiring intense concentration. People like coffee and who can blame them.

    , @Rosie
    @SimpleSong


    Unfortunately there are very few PEDs that don’t have significant downsides–your body evolved to have a particular level of Epo or testosterone for a reason.
     
    Maybe, but certainly obesity has "significant downsides." Antiobesity drugs are PEDs. That's part of how they work.

    https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/diet-drugs-work-why-wont-doctors-prescribe-them
  23. Just let them use whatever they want, whether drugs, different kinds of equipment, etc. That would make intelligence more a part of being a winning athlete. Or at least having intelligent handlers that can turn you into the biggest, baddest whatever in the world.

    The Olympics is already largely a freak show, with ridiculous sub-second differences often separating 1st, 2nd and 3rd in timed events. Who cares anymore?

    Let’s turn it into something from a crazy dystopian comic book, with webbed hands for swimmers and electronic eyes for ping pong players, and whatever else. It’s only a matter of degree, not kind, and the whole thing is a disgusting circus side-show anyway. If people want to ruin their lives in pursuit of “Olympic gold,” then let them.

    • Agree: Old Prude
  24. This has been a pet peeve of mine as well, ever since I worked in a bodybuilding gym in the late 1980s. Steroids were exploding at that time and the gym world was ground zero. I even took a mild one for a short while (Deca) to cure a back problem I developed in my early 20s. It worked like a charm.

    My conclusion from mostly anecdotal evidence is that all athletes use PEDs a lot. Baseball is really the only sport that has a publicized “problem” with their use, because statistics are the lifeblood of the sport. Policing PED use became a scandal because statistical records needed to have some integrity. NBA and NFL players have grown much bigger and stronger since the 1980s, in no small part because those leagues don’t really have rigorous testing for PEDs. They’re happy to look away for the good of their industries.

    With AI and transhumanism growing in popularity, I sense steroid use will be generally accepted at some point in the not too distant future.

  25. @SimpleSong
    @anon12

    The argument for limiting PEDs in the Olympics is at the end of the day, the Olympics don't really matter. It has zero effect on humanity whether somebody runs 0.01 seconds faster in some race or not. It's just entertainment. And for whatever reason, people want this to be a competition between athletes, not between doctors. In the same way that NASCAR proscribes the allowed car designs to make their sport a competition between drivers, not engineers.

    In things that actually matter it is socially acceptable to use PEDs--note how basically any job requiring intense concentration on a somewhat boring task will have a big coffee pot in the breakroom. Unfortunately there are very few PEDs that don't have significant downsides--your body evolved to have a particular level of Epo or testosterone for a reason.

    That said, I would actually be more inclined to watch the Olympics if you could let the biologists go wild, gene enhancements, etc., as long as they were upfront about it.

    Replies: @Trinity, @kaganovitch, @Rosie

    Well no one has a problem with “skrippers” being physically enhanced with fake tits. hehe.

    • Agree: Old Prude
  26. I couldn’t care less about professional athletes using the stuff in television sports as I don’t waste my time with it. What concerns me is that the vast majority of steroid use is guys attempting to gain more of an aesthetic.

    I understand a lot of the dangers of steroids have been greatly overrated. But I worry that if they become more acceptable or available it will start a male arms race (pun intended) where everyone from young high school and college guys to older married men will feel inadequate in the gym as they notice more and more guys lifting the same as them but seeing much more impressive gains at a reduce body fat percentage. As far as I’ve researched once you go down that route there’s always more drugs (HGH etc,) to give even more of an edge.

    Instagram is already full of these roided fitness models who use it as a false advertising for some BS product trying to get guys to think they’ll look just as good if they buy their overpriced protein powder.

    As a father of two young boys I’d feel pretty bad if they grew up in a world where they’d feel inadequate against their male peers if they don’t hit the needle. We’ve become more body image obsessed as a culture so I can understand why it’s difficult to take the advice of just “checking out” and being happy in your own body.

    Heck I’ve been tempted to take the stuff. Even if it takes 5 to 10 years off my life might be worth it to look jacked and feel like a prime male in my 30s and 40s.

  27. @Jonathan Mason
    The Olympic games used to be a wonderful celebration of amateur sport, but since it became professionalized and drugified and more and more professional sports have been added, it has become more and more tedious.

    As a 9-year-old boy I was inspired by the Rome Olympics of 1960, some of which I saw on black and white TV. My friends and I staged mini 10,000 meters races, sprints, javelin throwing events, bike races, swimming races, and other events.

    It is now no longer about just winning a faux gold metal for the sake of competing and taking part, but all about the money that can be made after victory by doing endorsements and personal appearances, which is why so many athletes cheat by using drugs that are not allowed in their respective sports.

    I should also point out that in most countries using steroid drugs for sporting enhancement is an illegal drug offense, although you hardly ever hear about athletes and their prescribers being prosecuted. Marion Jones was a big exception.

    Every sport is tainted to some extent. When Tiger Woods became muscle bound, people suspected that he was using steroids, which seemed to affect his behavior.

    Now we have Bryson de Chambeau starting to look like the incredible Hulk, and having temper tantrums to match.

    For years we have had Serena Williams also looking like something straight outta Wakanda, and the NFL looking like the WWW.

    The greatest cyclist of all time was also of course a drug cheat.

    The end result is that children are much less interested in sports now than they used to be, and that future generations of sports fans will fade away.

    Only soccer seems to be relatively untainted.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @kaganovitch, @Old Prude, @Rouetheday, @sb

    My friends and I staged mini 10,000 meters races, sprints, javelin throwing events, bike races, swimming races, and other events.

    What exactly is a mini 10,000 meter race? Is it the same as a hundred meter race?

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @kaganovitch

    Same number of laps as a 10,000 meters, but with much shorter laps.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  28. Wonder what sort of PEDs Bobby Fischer used back in the day. I mean if Olympic archers have to take PEDs then what about chess wizards?

    Fischer was certainly hip to the JQ before being hip to the JQ was cool. Should “speed chess” be added to the Olympic games? I mean SI did a story on Fischer back when he beat that Russkie guy named Spassky. And hell, even yachting has been in the Olympics IF I am not mistaken. Wonder if those yacht guys take HGH?

    Should team jigsaw puzzle events be added to the Olympics. The 500 piece, the 1,000 piece and the marathon 10,000 piece two man jigsaw puzzle competition?

    Cue: I Was Country When Country Wasn’t Cool by Barbara Mandrell.

    • LOL: Old Prude
    • Replies: @Polymath
    @Trinity

    I knew several of Bobby’s closest friends. He was very careful about what went into his body. Big fan of high quality beef, fruit juice, and healthy outdoor exercise like walking, swimming, and hiking. He might have taken vitamins but he definitely did not want anything that might affect his brain, his energy and concentration were already top level.

  29. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Sick of Orcs


    So what if the drugs are safe?

    Cheating is cheating.
     
    1. If they're safe, then why can't people use them in their ordinary lives? Cosmetic surgery is ordinary now.

    2. Rules on what cheating is can change. I read that Usain Bolt is very upset by a new style of running spikes because they will mean someone takes his records. This is understandable, but perhaps spectators would enjoy seeing people run even faster.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Sick of Orcs

    No one is going to directly notice if all the runners are running 1% faster or whatever. The extra speed might show up in their times but it would be impossible to directly perceive.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @AndrewR

    I'm not really into watching sports, especially events like sprinting, but people who are really into it seem to care a lot about small fractions of a second.

  30. @Anonymous

    The golf tours refuse to test for beta blockers, which are notoriously used by concert musicians with stage fright, because they are great drugs that have saved millions of lives.
     
    What is so great about them? How have they saved lives? And how do you know the cost-benefit balance on these but not the other PEDs?

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    They are prescribed to people with high blood pressure. Saving millions is no exaggeration .

    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @kaganovitch

    Also for irregular heartbeat. The vagus nerve system is its own thing and conscious direction of the sucker takes yogis years. Cardiologists love beta blockers.

    , @anon
    @kaganovitch

    Saving millions is no exaggeration .

    Indeed. This is significant, since hypertension does not have any obvious symptoms.

    The SPRINT study showed significant benefits from lowering systolic blood pressure from 130mm or higher to below 120mm. A reduction in strokes just for a start, but there are obvious benefits to the kidneys plus reduced chances of circulatory dementia.


    https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/science/systolic-blood-pressure-intervention-trial-sprint-study

  31. The two deaths you mentioned appear to have been unrelated to steroids (cocaine overdose and hemangioma in the brain).

    Your question is an interesting one. It has become more common for healthy people to use PEDs including HGH and (relatively) low dose testosterone (TRT) to look better and improve their quality of life. I’m curious to see if there winds up being a noticeable effect on longevity when it is prescribed and managed by a physician.

    Also interesting, drugs like DNP that enhance fat burning have been used historically to aid weight loss (nb – the effects of too high a dose are horrendous and the therapeutic index is narrow). Could safer versions be an unequivocal benefit to longevity in that it could combat all of the health ills from our obesity epidemic?

    I would guess there is still considerable benefit to be reaped by the average American re: better living through chemistry.

    • Agree: Old Prude
    • Replies: @SaneClownPosse
    @Moral Stone

    "Could safer versions be an unequivocal benefit to longevity in that it could combat all of the health ills from our obesity epidemic? "

    How about making it illegal for corporations to produce the cheap, junk food that is the main cause of obesity?

    Same direction, reduce cancer rates by not manufacturing products and foods that cause cancers.

    PS The USN, at least back in the 90s, was handing out Inderal (beta blocker) to the shipboard electronic technicians performing repairs on electronic gear that involved soldering tiny bits together, while cruising the world's oceans to make them safe for Freedom and Democracy.

  32. @SimpleSong
    @anon12

    The argument for limiting PEDs in the Olympics is at the end of the day, the Olympics don't really matter. It has zero effect on humanity whether somebody runs 0.01 seconds faster in some race or not. It's just entertainment. And for whatever reason, people want this to be a competition between athletes, not between doctors. In the same way that NASCAR proscribes the allowed car designs to make their sport a competition between drivers, not engineers.

    In things that actually matter it is socially acceptable to use PEDs--note how basically any job requiring intense concentration on a somewhat boring task will have a big coffee pot in the breakroom. Unfortunately there are very few PEDs that don't have significant downsides--your body evolved to have a particular level of Epo or testosterone for a reason.

    That said, I would actually be more inclined to watch the Olympics if you could let the biologists go wild, gene enhancements, etc., as long as they were upfront about it.

    Replies: @Trinity, @kaganovitch, @Rosie

    note how basically any job requiring intense concentration on a somewhat boring task will have a big coffee pot in the breakroom.

    Also any job not requiring intense concentration. People like coffee and who can blame them.

  33. @kaganovitch
    @Jonathan Mason

    My friends and I staged mini 10,000 meters races, sprints, javelin throwing events, bike races, swimming races, and other events.

    What exactly is a mini 10,000 meter race? Is it the same as a hundred meter race?

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    Same number of laps as a 10,000 meters, but with much shorter laps.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    Same number of laps as a 10,000 meters, but with much shorter laps.
     
    10,000 centimeters? 10,000 millimeters?

    Isn't the whole point of the metric system the ease of switching between orders of magnitude? So you can easily figure how many thumbnails it would need to reach the moon-- a critical calculation made unnecessarily complex in Imperial units.

    Twelvepence's your uncle.


    https://www.allcoinvalues.com/images/1901-uk-shilling-reverse2c-victoria-28kos29.jpg

    Replies: @the one they call Desanex, @Jonathan Mason

  34. @kaganovitch
    @Anonymous

    They are prescribed to people with high blood pressure. Saving millions is no exaggeration .

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @anon

    Also for irregular heartbeat. The vagus nerve system is its own thing and conscious direction of the sucker takes yogis years. Cardiologists love beta blockers.

  35. @anon12
    As a former infantryman, this question has always irritated me. Why not use drugs that enhance strength, increase endurance, and reduce anxiety starting in pre-deployment and ending afterwards? It would be easy enough to issue them along with food and medicine.

    Infantry, as well as other soldiers, are subject to a notoriously debilitating environment. It could easily be a worthwhile tradeoff between negative and nebulous long term health effects versus immediate improvements in mission capability.

    It would also be a great for scientific studies on life enhancement through pharmaceuticals. Scott Alexander likes to discuss the cognitive enhancement implications of psychiatry. We should be doing something similar for physical enhancements.

    I know the USAF uses drugs for performance enhancement. Of course, the Army doesn't even want to increase the protein content of their rations, much less issue creatine, despite the obvious and well established benefits on muscle growth and retention for both those things.

    Replies: @SimpleSong, @JerseyJeffersonian

    Well, it was balls to the wall for the Nazis with methamphetamine. It had its downside. Read more at this link, and use your favorite search engine (DuckDuckG.com works for me) to learn more about that specific topic, or expand your search to other projected pathways to performance enhancement such as genetic modifications (sounds fun):

    https://allthatsinteresting.com/pervitin-nazi-drugs

  36. @Mr Mox

    Beta blockers, an anti-anxiety medication, helps athletes concentrate in sports like archery by lowering blood pressure
     
    When I was a newbie on the skeet range, back in the late seventies, one of the oldtimers told of a friend who had tried beta blockers to keep his nerves more steady to help him improve his score:

    "Did they work?" he asked the friend.

    "Oh, yes" the friend answered "I couldn't care less whenever I missed a target!"

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JerseyJeffersonian

    I am a fairly high level amateur oboist, playing challenging classical repertoire. At times, the demands can provoke a bit of performance anxiety, and some years back I obtained an experimental scrip for a beta blocker to determine if this could be helpful. The answer is yes, but I have used it very sparingly over the succeeding years. I am asthmatic, and more than occasional use is contraindicated, and only certain circumstances dictated its use, anyway.

    The trick is dosage, just a little takes the edge off, but leaves one competent as an executant, not indifferent to the result, which is the entire point. Sounds like dude was enjoying the buzz instead of the absence of performance anxiety.

  37. @Steve Sailer
    @Mr Mox

    That's what pro golfers on beta blockers tend to say: the pills reduce their intensity.

    Replies: @Mr Mox

    The first Olympian ever disqualified for doping was a Swede, Hans-Gunnar Liljenwall, who had two beers before a pistol marksmanship competition at the 1968 summer games in Mexico City.

    https://whyy.org/segments/when-a-bit-of-booze-is-just-the-boost-you-need/

    I was surprised to see alcohol was removed from the doping list a few years ago – as alcohol was/is a well known way to help steading both the gun and the nerves in pistol matches.
    It turns out the change was made for a reason: now the competitors can be tested before matches, not after, as with normal doping tests – which probably is a good thing when firearms are involved.

    I can personally confirm a single drink can improve your pistol score – and spoil your shotgun score!
    Different strokes for different sports…

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @Mr Mox

    Low doses of Benzos work even better.

  38. “Living your best life.”

    That phrase has become very common in the past year.

  39. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Sick of Orcs


    So what if the drugs are safe?

    Cheating is cheating.
     
    1. If they're safe, then why can't people use them in their ordinary lives? Cosmetic surgery is ordinary now.

    2. Rules on what cheating is can change. I read that Usain Bolt is very upset by a new style of running spikes because they will mean someone takes his records. This is understandable, but perhaps spectators would enjoy seeing people run even faster.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Sick of Orcs

    1. If they’re safe, then why can’t people use them in their ordinary lives?

    Many drugs are used, under medical supervision.

    2. Rules on what cheating is can change.

    True, but using banned substances remains cheating.

    perhaps spectators would enjoy seeing people run even faster.

    I don’t disagree.

    SNL All-Drugs Olympics

  40. I have probably recommended “Over the edge” by David Shaw before. It is a hilarious autobiography by an Australian bodybuilder. He discusses the state of the art in steroids in the 90s. Very funny and insightful,

  41. They’re all on drugs.

    It’s all scripted.

    Here endeth the lesson.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    If not scripted, fixed. Twenty years ago an NBA referee was caught fixing games. My friends went right on betting football games like nothing had happened at all. Idiots.

  42. Rob says:

    Adult stats hounds seem to forget that the target audience for sports is mostly fathers and sons. Rightly or wrongly, kids look up to athletes. Parents do not want their kids’ role models to be taking PEDs. They do not want their 14 yo kid to think “X does drugs to improve his performance. I am anxious, so I’ll smoke some pot to calm down.”

    That said, athletes are going to cheat. I think lifetime bans for doping are the only thing that might work. It is fair, because steroids affect strength for years after one stops. There’s no reason someone should get a timeout for something that will improve his performance for life.

    On Adderall use by writers, that’s really interesting. I wonder if that is why so much writing comes off as unhinged. Maybe drugged up writers caused woke?

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
    @Rob

    Well, the greatest writer of the ‘70’s was drugged up alright, but “woke” he was not:

    https://sensitiveskinmagazine.com/hunter-s-thompson-the-kentucky-derby-is-decadent-and-depraved/

    (The older I get, the better he reads.)

    , @Anonymous
    @Rob


    On Adderall use by writers, that’s really interesting. I wonder if that is why so much writing comes off as unhinged. Maybe drugged up writers caused woke?
     
    Adderall abuse is taken as a given for television writers, and more recently, "micro-dosing" LSD, as well as mushrooms is widespread as well.

    You think "Breaking Bad" wrote itself? You think that was just an explosion of intense writer creativity that came out of nowhere and transfixed the television-watching nation?

    Self-described Adderall abuser Dan Harmon is an unusually public example of the advantages of Adderall. It made him so crazy they had to fire him, but once he convinced Sony he had his Adderall usage back under control, they gave him his job back. He'll probably go to an early grave, but it got him his initial "Community" gig.

    Try to convince yourself that his current show "Rick and Marty" isn’t drug-driven. The difference between that and "Community" is now he hires writers to micro-dose for him.
  43. SNL already thought of this, “The All Drugs Olympics”, check it out:

    It’s sure to boost NBC’s ratings, which will probably be quite miserable this Olympics.

  44. I’ve been taking a beta blocker for high blood pressure and heart palpitations for years. It seems to work well re bp and the palpitations. I’ve noticed zero psychological impact regarding anxiety, though some people report a profound anti anxiety effect.

  45. Maybe the steroids affect those who are in engaged in strenuous sports such as sprinting. Sudden increase in heart rate and BP. Baseball cheats such a Bonds, Canseco and McQwire rarely ran during a game and just trotted the bases after HRs. Don’t know and sadly if some one hastens their demise by abusing drugs for fame and fortune, well that’s karma.

  46. I don’t believe that Flo-Jo’s early death was caused by PEDs. She died while having a seizure. Her epilepsy was caused by a congenital vascular brain abnormality.

  47. the number 1 supplement by far is Jamiacan yams, which enable jamaican sprinters to perform at incredible levels. it’s the yams i’m telling you, NOT any drugs.

  48. I assume, based on their aggressive behavior, that the US woman’s soccer team supplements with testosterone. Is testosterone harmful to women? Does it only cause prostate cancer?

  49. My opinion on peds changed when I listened to a podcast by Bill Simmons during the 2012 NFL season. He was discussing Adrian Peterson’s 2097 yard season, which began less than 9 months after he’d torn his acl, and contrasted Peterson’s recovery with that of athletes under the stricter Olympic testing regimen. As the Olympians tended to take more than 12 months to recover from an acl tear, Bill insinuated Peterson’s recovery must be chemically enhanced.

    It was something I hadn’t contemplated before, that there may be effective medical treatments available only to a select few in order to protect the sanctity of sports. Most people who tear an acl aren’t professional athletes and don’t have access to whatever Peterson took to reduce the recovery time by 3+ months. Over 100,000 people suffer acl tears in the US each year, so this is a minimum of 300,000 months of unnecessary debilitation for ordinary Americans, each year, for the sake of “clean sports”. And that’s just looking at one injury!

    Our priorities are ridiculous.

  50. anon[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @kaganovitch
    @Anonymous

    They are prescribed to people with high blood pressure. Saving millions is no exaggeration .

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @anon

    Saving millions is no exaggeration .

    Indeed. This is significant, since hypertension does not have any obvious symptoms.

    The SPRINT study showed significant benefits from lowering systolic blood pressure from 130mm or higher to below 120mm. A reduction in strokes just for a start, but there are obvious benefits to the kidneys plus reduced chances of circulatory dementia.

    https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/science/systolic-blood-pressure-intervention-trial-sprint-study

  51. @SimpleSong
    @anon12

    The argument for limiting PEDs in the Olympics is at the end of the day, the Olympics don't really matter. It has zero effect on humanity whether somebody runs 0.01 seconds faster in some race or not. It's just entertainment. And for whatever reason, people want this to be a competition between athletes, not between doctors. In the same way that NASCAR proscribes the allowed car designs to make their sport a competition between drivers, not engineers.

    In things that actually matter it is socially acceptable to use PEDs--note how basically any job requiring intense concentration on a somewhat boring task will have a big coffee pot in the breakroom. Unfortunately there are very few PEDs that don't have significant downsides--your body evolved to have a particular level of Epo or testosterone for a reason.

    That said, I would actually be more inclined to watch the Olympics if you could let the biologists go wild, gene enhancements, etc., as long as they were upfront about it.

    Replies: @Trinity, @kaganovitch, @Rosie

    Unfortunately there are very few PEDs that don’t have significant downsides–your body evolved to have a particular level of Epo or testosterone for a reason.

    Maybe, but certainly obesity has “significant downsides.” Antiobesity drugs are PEDs. That’s part of how they work.

    https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/diet-drugs-work-why-wont-doctors-prescribe-them

  52. @Pericles
    The best drugs for each sport are listed here: https://www.wada-ama.org/en/what-we-do/the-prohibited-list

    (Though research of course continues.)

    I too dislike PEDs, because the more cheating there is, the less interesting it gets. On the other hand, if the authorities turned a blind eye to rampant cheating, PEDs, bribery, trash can banging, and so on, then -- apart from removing the competitive accomplishment part of sports -- the hardest hit would be gamblers and advertisers. So perhaps it would be acceptable after all? Like, just play for the love of the game guys and give trophies to everyone.

    Replies: @Rosie

    I too dislike PEDs, because the more cheating there is, the less interesting it gets.

    Well, at the end of the day, keeping sports interesting is, at the very least, not as high a priority as health for the masses. I’m not sure spectator sports are particularly good for people anyway. The Olympics are fine, because it’s only every four years. But people sitting on the sofa watching 162 baseball games a year is probably not ideal.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Rosie

    If memory serves, modern sports were promoted by governments for the sake of public health, at least in some countries. Many PEDs are not great from that perspective either. (Not sure if, say, beta blockers have any major risks.)

  53. One telltale sign of steroids is adult zits on the upper body.
    My late step-monster was on Prednisone her last few years after ruining her colon with a long list of meds. Her whole head bloated freakishly. I was on it for a couple of weeks. Not only was I constantly hungry, everything tasted wonderful, even chicken salad with pickles, which I normally hate.

  54. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Sleep.

    Replies: @Wizard of Oz

    Actors and models should have their mouths inspected before every outing to make sure that they haven’t gone on with the expensive orthodontic treatment mother started them on.

  55. @Sick of Orcs
    So what if the drugs are safe?

    Cheating is cheating.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @theMann, @Boomthorkell

    I advocate hosting 6 kinds of Olympics:

    The Eugenics Olympics: Only tools allowed are vitamin supplements, carefully selected diets, and training regimens. Mutants allowed, but no intersex. Separated by Sex, no trans allowed. This is to see what a perfected standard(ish) human can achieve.

    The Bio-Juicer Olympics: How far can a performance enhancing drug or cocktail of drugs push the human form? What about extra organs? No sex separation, all allowed, including trans.

    The Cyber-Olympics: Any non-biological or PED based alteration: Blade Runners, etc.

    The Para-Olympics: Separated into two categories with non-cyber enhanced physical cripples, and the mentally\neurologically disabled or damaged.

    The Super Olympics: anyone can participate, but the most exciting will be Bio-Juicer against Cyber, I think.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @Boomthorkell

    Cheaters will be banned from participating from any category forever, to better encourage people selecting their Olympic field carefully.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Boomthorkell


    The Cyber-Olympics: Any non-biological or PED based alteration: Blade Runners, etc.
     
    In the year 2524.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

    , @Alfa158
    @Boomthorkell

    I might watch the Olympics if they went back to the few original events that actually measured useful activities: Who can throw a spear the farthest, who can pick up the heaviest rock, who can punch out everyone else, who can make all the other rasslers cry Uncle, who can run to one side of the field and back the fastest, who can run around the stadium 20 times the fastest, who can jump the farthest etc. I believe the whole thing started to go downhill when someone introduced who can throw a dish the farthest, which is a meaningless activity for anyone except enraged wives.
    I mean, who is actually interested in gymnastic ribbon twirling other than the Moms of the contestants?
    The only thing I would ask is that they don’t also re-introduce competing nude.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Chrisnonymous, @Muggles

    , @Sick of Orcs
    @Boomthorkell

    For economic reasons your suggested categories are likely the future. Right now, transweirdos should only compete against other transweirdos and be recorded in their own category, apart from normals.

  56. @Boomthorkell
    @Sick of Orcs

    I advocate hosting 6 kinds of Olympics:

    The Eugenics Olympics: Only tools allowed are vitamin supplements, carefully selected diets, and training regimens. Mutants allowed, but no intersex. Separated by Sex, no trans allowed. This is to see what a perfected standard(ish) human can achieve.

    The Bio-Juicer Olympics: How far can a performance enhancing drug or cocktail of drugs push the human form? What about extra organs? No sex separation, all allowed, including trans.

    The Cyber-Olympics: Any non-biological or PED based alteration: Blade Runners, etc.

    The Para-Olympics: Separated into two categories with non-cyber enhanced physical cripples, and the mentally\neurologically disabled or damaged.

    The Super Olympics: anyone can participate, but the most exciting will be Bio-Juicer against Cyber, I think.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Reg Cæsar, @Alfa158, @Sick of Orcs

    Cheaters will be banned from participating from any category forever, to better encourage people selecting their Olympic field carefully.

  57. @Jonathan Mason
    @Jonathan Mason

    From Wikipedia, with regard to drug use in soccer:


    Italy

    In Serie A, Parma's Manuele Blasi was banned after a failed test for nandrolone in September 2003.

    According to the Gazzetta dello Sport, the death of four former Fiorentina players over the past 19 years were suspicious. Pino Longoni died at age 63 after suffering from an irreversible degenerative illness which narrowed the arteries in his brain; Bruno Beatrice died of leukaemia in 1987 aged 39; Nello Saltutti died after suffering a heart attack in 2003 aged 56; and Ugo Ferrante died in November 2004 of cancer of the tonsils aged 59.

    The Italian newspaper claimed their illnesses may have been brought on by Cortex and Micoren, drugs that were allegedly administered by Fiorentina's medical staff in the 1970s.

    However, Turin prosecutor Raffaele Guariniello, who has led Italy's fight against drug-taking in sport since 1998, said without hard evidence the Gazzetta's claims that the deaths might be linked to doping were presumptuous.[25]
     
    In the early 2000's in England Romanian player Adrian Mutu was found to have tested positive for cocaine and was eventually fired by his club, who sought damages from him for breach of contract.

    The solution seems relatively simple for team sports, simply that the standard club employment contract should contain clauses regarding the use of performance enhancing and/or recreational drugs and that a player who tests positive or does not comply with testing is in breach of contract and liable to termination and substantial damages.

    In individual sports, it is a bit more tricky, but I think performance enhancing drug use should be a strict liability offense. If your urine contains illegal metabolites, you should be banned from the sport in perpetuity even if you are the tragic victim of steroid poisoning by a jealous spouse.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    The Italian newspaper claimed their illnesses may have been brought on by Cortex and Micoren, drugs that were allegedly administered by Fiorentina’s medical staff in the 1970s.

    The PED problem in earnest goes back to the 1960s as your article alludes. One of the first was Cortisone, a powerful painkiller. It aids quick recovery, but the user should rest during treatment. Medical opinion now is that you should only have 3 injections per lifetime. If you are found to have cortisone in your body, cycling authorities will nowadays ban you.
    In the 1960s, it was regarded as a wonder drug, and training and playing whilst on the drug were regarded as normal.

    Here is a quote from wikipedia concerning top 1960s Scotland striker, Allan McGraw.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_McGraw

    McGraw left Morton for Hibernian, where he scored a goal which meant that the club reached a League Cup final. He took a number of pain killing injections in order to play while injured. This ruined his knees, causing great pain and necessitating the use of walking sticks for the rest of his life.

    In one season alone, he had 17 cortisone injections in his knees, and continued to play throughout. The pain has been very acute since and Mr McGraw has several times contemplated amputation of both legs above the knee.

    • Thanks: Cortes
  58. A Caffeine+Theanine combination is popular in the tech community, producing a relaxed kind of focus. Never tried it.

    Modafinil, which I have tried, is great for getting things done, but you’ve got to use it properly. Have a to-do list ready, and take the drug in the morning. If your to-do list is too vague or you don’t have one, you can get side-tracked. If you had unz.com open, for instance, you would probably end up trying to read every article. It makes you a little emotionally flat too, so probably not great for writing poetry.

  59. @Rob
    Adult stats hounds seem to forget that the target audience for sports is mostly fathers and sons. Rightly or wrongly, kids look up to athletes. Parents do not want their kids’ role models to be taking PEDs. They do not want their 14 yo kid to think “X does drugs to improve his performance. I am anxious, so I’ll smoke some pot to calm down.”

    That said, athletes are going to cheat. I think lifetime bans for doping are the only thing that might work. It is fair, because steroids affect strength for years after one stops. There’s no reason someone should get a timeout for something that will improve his performance for life.

    On Adderall use by writers, that’s really interesting. I wonder if that is why so much writing comes off as unhinged. Maybe drugged up writers caused woke?

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe, @Anonymous

    Well, the greatest writer of the ‘70’s was drugged up alright, but “woke” he was not:

    https://sensitiveskinmagazine.com/hunter-s-thompson-the-kentucky-derby-is-decadent-and-depraved/

    (The older I get, the better he reads.)

  60. Anonymous[194] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob
    Adult stats hounds seem to forget that the target audience for sports is mostly fathers and sons. Rightly or wrongly, kids look up to athletes. Parents do not want their kids’ role models to be taking PEDs. They do not want their 14 yo kid to think “X does drugs to improve his performance. I am anxious, so I’ll smoke some pot to calm down.”

    That said, athletes are going to cheat. I think lifetime bans for doping are the only thing that might work. It is fair, because steroids affect strength for years after one stops. There’s no reason someone should get a timeout for something that will improve his performance for life.

    On Adderall use by writers, that’s really interesting. I wonder if that is why so much writing comes off as unhinged. Maybe drugged up writers caused woke?

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe, @Anonymous

    On Adderall use by writers, that’s really interesting. I wonder if that is why so much writing comes off as unhinged. Maybe drugged up writers caused woke?

    Adderall abuse is taken as a given for television writers, and more recently, “micro-dosing” LSD, as well as mushrooms is widespread as well.

    You think “Breaking Bad” wrote itself? You think that was just an explosion of intense writer creativity that came out of nowhere and transfixed the television-watching nation?

    Self-described Adderall abuser Dan Harmon is an unusually public example of the advantages of Adderall. It made him so crazy they had to fire him, but once he convinced Sony he had his Adderall usage back under control, they gave him his job back. He’ll probably go to an early grave, but it got him his initial “Community” gig.

    Try to convince yourself that his current show “Rick and Marty” isn’t drug-driven. The difference between that and “Community” is now he hires writers to micro-dose for him.

  61. “What if we’ve invented drugs that can help you Live Your Best Life without killing you very much?”

    Now you sound like Jose Canseco in his 2005 best selling book, Juiced. He devotes quite a bit of time making this case, extolling the virtues of PEDS.

  62. Caffeine is of course not considered a PED though when coffee was first introduced in Europe it was often banned as some kind of evil substance addicting users and turning them into coffee house revolutionaries (that might have had some truth to it.)

    It is well known that the Germans in WWII gave their troops (and Der Fuehrer) meth tablets which worked until you burned out. The USAF uses these on long duration bombing runs. Probably other military uses.

    Vitamin B-12 gives an energy boost. I don’t think that is considered a PED though perhaps at some large dosages it may be.

    My trainer said, after I asked him, that taking anabolic steroids for an extended period will kill you outright. Has long term side effects also.

    With the now trans mania in athletics, you have to ask about the testosterone blockers or additions in various new iterations of human beings. I suppose, being now Woke symbols of “tolerance” these things will be exempted.

    Women’s athletics will suffer and end (real women that is.) Tiny sprite-sized now “male” former female balance beam gymnasts will start winning those men’s sports.

    So what’s next for “sports”? Hooking up chess Grand Masters to brain electrodes connected to huge computers to “win” chess games (or Go)?

    With billions of people now available to compete in sports, most elite athletes spend most of their childhoods honing very specific sports skills. Unlike past amateur athletes. If you don’t start by age 5 you’ll never make it in many “sports” requiring skills/techniques learned just out of diapers.

    So what is the point? Soon we’ll just breed them in vitro. Who wants to see that?

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Muggles

    I recently read something about Reinhold Messner that took me by surprise. It may have been in a book by Chris Bonington or maybe in The Boys of Everest. Reinhold Messner is arguably the greatest high-altitude mountaineer who’s ever lived. He was the first to summit all fourteen 8000 meter peaks.
    What shocked me was that Messner used Pervetin during many of his ascents. Pervetin is the same drug that the Germans issued to their troops during the second world war. It’s methamphetamine. It struck me as funny that supplemental oxygen was seen as unsporting, yet methamphetamine was acceptable.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @J.Ross
    @Muggles

    Noops are regularly anecdoted on the chans and every time I see the "Limitless" claims it's like a marketer's dream of zero effort max effectiveness. I want to be on a pill that effectively time-travels to erase my youthful intellectual-educational mistakes, plus makes me calmer yet quicker, that sounds like the best pharmaceutical project ever. A pill such that it's like you had behaved.
    Or, failing that, zinc and Siberian herbs. For mental acuity. Tablespoons and tablespoons of mental acuity.

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Muggles

    "So what is the point? Soon we’ll just breed them in vitro. Who wants to see that?"

    If you upload it, they will come.

    Replies: @Muggles

  63. @Rosie
    @Pericles


    I too dislike PEDs, because the more cheating there is, the less interesting it gets.
     
    Well, at the end of the day, keeping sports interesting is, at the very least, not as high a priority as health for the masses. I'm not sure spectator sports are particularly good for people anyway. The Olympics are fine, because it’s only every four years. But people sitting on the sofa watching 162 baseball games a year is probably not ideal.

    Replies: @Pericles

    If memory serves, modern sports were promoted by governments for the sake of public health, at least in some countries. Many PEDs are not great from that perspective either. (Not sure if, say, beta blockers have any major risks.)

  64. All steroids are not equal

    World of difference between Tren (horse steroids) versus Clen or straight Test

    And all of those are a category apart entirely from Anavar

  65. Time for something from the Bruce Sterling’s SciFi story “Schismatrix” then (it beat’s Dune’s ass btw)

    [MORE]

    Lindsay nodded. “I know that you’ll attack Czarina-Kluster if you have the chance. Your hypocrisy astounds me. You’re no Shaper. Not only are you unplanned, but your use of Mech techniques is notorious. You’re a living demonstration of the power of detente. You seize advantage wherever you find it but deny it to anyone else.”

    Constantine smiled. “I’m no Shaper. I’m their guardian. It’s been my fate, and I’ve accepted it. I’ve been alone all my life, except for you and Vera. We were fools then.”

    “I was the fool,” Lindsay said. “I killed Vera for nothing. You killed her to prove your own power.”

    “The price was bitter, but the proof was worth it. I’ve made amends since then.” He drained his goblet and stretched out his arm.

    Vera Kelland took the cup. Around her neck she wore the gold filigree locket she had worn in the crash, the locket that was meant to guarantee his death.

    Lindsay was dumbstruck. He had not seen the girl’s face when her back was turned.

    She did not meet his eyes.

    Lindsay stared at her in icy fascination. The resemblance was strong but not perfect. The girl turned and left. Lindsay forced the words. “She’s not a full clone.”

    “Of course not. Vera Kelland was unplanned.”

    “You used her genetics?”

    “Do I hear envy, cousin? Are you claiming her cells loved you and not me?” Constantine laughed.

    Lindsay tore his gaze from the woman. Her grace and beauty wounded him. He felt shell-shocked, panicky. “What will happen to her, when you die here?”

    Constantine smiled quietly. “Why not mull that over, while we fight?”

    “I’ll make you a pledge,” Lindsay said. “I swear that if I win I’ll spare your congenetics in the years to come.”

    “My people are loyal to the Ring Council. Your Czarina-Kluster rabble are their enemies. They’re bound to come in conflict.”

    “Surely that will be grim enough without our adding to it.”

    “You’re naive, Abelard. Czarina-Kluster must fall.”

    Lindsay looked aside, studying Constantine’s group. “They don’t look stupid, Philip. I wonder if they won’t rejoice at your death. They might be swept away in the general celebration.”

    “Idle speculation always bores me,” Constantine said.

    Lindsay glared. “Then it’s time we put the matter to the proof.”

    Heavy curtains were spread over one of the huge alien tables, falling to the floor. Beneath the table’s sheltering expanse the blazing light was dimmer, and a pair of supportive waterbeds were brought in to combat Investor gravity.

    The Arena itself was tiny, a fist-sized dodecahedron, its triangular sides so glossily black that they shimmered with faint pastels. Wire trailed from metal-bound sockets in two opposing poles of the structure. The wires led to two goggle-equipped helmets with flexible neck extensions. The helmets had the blunt utilitarian look of Mechanist manufacture.

    Constantine won the toss and took the right-hand helmet. He produced a flat curved lozenge of beige plastic from his gold-threaded coat and hooked an elastic strap to its anchor loops. “A spatial analyzer,” he explained. “One of my routines. Permitted?”

    “Yes.” Lindsay pulled a flesh-colored strip of dotted adhesive disks from his breast pocket. “PDKL Ninety-five,” he said. “In doses of two hundred micro-grams.”

    Constantine stared. ” ‘Shatter.’ From the Cataclysts?”

    “No,” Lindsay said. “This was part of the stock of Michael Carnassus. It’s original Mechanist issue, for the embassies. Interested?”

    “No,” Constantine said. He looked shaken. “I protest. I came here to fight Abeiard Lindsay, not a shattered personality.”

    “That scarcely matters now, does it? This is to the death, Constantine. My humanity would only get in the way.”

    Constantine shrugged. “Then I win, no matter what.”

    Constantine attached the spatial analyzer, fitting its custom-made curves against the back of his skull. Its microprongs slid smoothly into the jacks connected to his right hemisphere. With its use, space would assume a fantastic solidity, movement would show with superhuman clarity. Constantine lifted the helmet and caught a glimpse of his own sleeve. Lindsay saw him hesitate, studying the fabric’s complex interwoven topology. He seemed fascinated. Then he shuddered briefly and slid his head within the helmet.

    Lindsay pressed the first dosage against his wrist and donned his headpiece. He felt the adhesive eye-cusps grip his sockets, then a wash of numbness as local anesthetics took effect and threads of stiffened biogel slid over the eyeballs to penetrate his optic nerves. He heard a faint annihilating ringing as other threads wormed past his eardrums into predetermined chemotactic contact with his neurons.

    They both lay back on their waterbeds, waiting as the helmets’ neck units soaked through predrilled microholes in the seventh cervical vertebra. The mi-crothreads grew their way harmlessly through the myelin casings of the spinal axons in a self-replicating gelatin web.

    Lindsay floated quietly. The PDKL was taking hold. As the spinal cutoff proceeded he felt his body dissolving like wax, each sensory clump of muscle sending a final warm glow of sensation as the neck unit shut it off, a last twinge of humanity too thin to be called pain. The Shatter helped him forget. By rendering everything novel, it was intended to rob everything of novelty. While it broke up preconceptions, it heightened the powers of comprehension so drastically that entire intuitive philosophies boiled up from a single moment of insight.

    It was dark. His mouth tasted of cobwebs. He felt a brief wave of vertigo and terror before the Shatter aborted it, leaving him suddenly stranded in an emotional no-man’s-land where his fear transmuted itself bizarrely into a crushing sense of physical weight.

    He was crouching next to the base of a titanic wall. Before him, dim sheens of radiance gleamed from a colossal arch. Beside it, jutting balustrades of icy stone were shrouded in thin webs of sagging dust-covered cable. He reached out to touch the wall and noted with dulled surprise that his arm had transmuted itself into a pallid claw. The arm was jointed in pale armor. It had two elbows.

  66. You can’t ban beta-blockers- they really are a necessary drug for a lot of people- my mother takes one. Banning beta-blockers will surely run afoul of the ADA in the US if even one golfer challenges it. Testosterone is also a necessary drug for a lot of older men to live a decent existence, and even a lot of younger ones.

    My stand has long been- don’t test for anything. If someone wants to put a synthetic hormone or drug into their body, it is their call. I just assume they are all doped up at the highest levels of performance, and just that not all of them get caught. Seriously- all of Lance Armstrong’s true competitors were doing the same things he did, they just didn’t have teammates and staff ratting them out because they never won.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Yancey Ward

    I think you should stop competing if you require e.g. beta blockers or testosterone (or various anti-asthmatics to take an infamous example) to function. No need to ban these drugs for medical use, of course.

  67. @The Wild Geese Howard
    They're all on drugs.

    It's all scripted.

    Here endeth the lesson.

    Replies: @JMcG

    If not scripted, fixed. Twenty years ago an NBA referee was caught fixing games. My friends went right on betting football games like nothing had happened at all. Idiots.

  68. @Muggles
    Caffeine is of course not considered a PED though when coffee was first introduced in Europe it was often banned as some kind of evil substance addicting users and turning them into coffee house revolutionaries (that might have had some truth to it.)

    It is well known that the Germans in WWII gave their troops (and Der Fuehrer) meth tablets which worked until you burned out. The USAF uses these on long duration bombing runs. Probably other military uses.

    Vitamin B-12 gives an energy boost. I don't think that is considered a PED though perhaps at some large dosages it may be.

    My trainer said, after I asked him, that taking anabolic steroids for an extended period will kill you outright. Has long term side effects also.

    With the now trans mania in athletics, you have to ask about the testosterone blockers or additions in various new iterations of human beings. I suppose, being now Woke symbols of "tolerance" these things will be exempted.

    Women's athletics will suffer and end (real women that is.) Tiny sprite-sized now "male" former female balance beam gymnasts will start winning those men's sports.

    So what's next for "sports"? Hooking up chess Grand Masters to brain electrodes connected to huge computers to "win" chess games (or Go)?

    With billions of people now available to compete in sports, most elite athletes spend most of their childhoods honing very specific sports skills. Unlike past amateur athletes. If you don't start by age 5 you'll never make it in many "sports" requiring skills/techniques learned just out of diapers.

    So what is the point? Soon we'll just breed them in vitro. Who wants to see that?

    Replies: @JMcG, @J.Ross, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I recently read something about Reinhold Messner that took me by surprise. It may have been in a book by Chris Bonington or maybe in The Boys of Everest. Reinhold Messner is arguably the greatest high-altitude mountaineer who’s ever lived. He was the first to summit all fourteen 8000 meter peaks.
    What shocked me was that Messner used Pervetin during many of his ascents. Pervetin is the same drug that the Germans issued to their troops during the second world war. It’s methamphetamine. It struck me as funny that supplemental oxygen was seen as unsporting, yet methamphetamine was acceptable.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @JMcG

    Thanks.

    Replies: @JMcG, @JMcG

  69. @Muggles
    Caffeine is of course not considered a PED though when coffee was first introduced in Europe it was often banned as some kind of evil substance addicting users and turning them into coffee house revolutionaries (that might have had some truth to it.)

    It is well known that the Germans in WWII gave their troops (and Der Fuehrer) meth tablets which worked until you burned out. The USAF uses these on long duration bombing runs. Probably other military uses.

    Vitamin B-12 gives an energy boost. I don't think that is considered a PED though perhaps at some large dosages it may be.

    My trainer said, after I asked him, that taking anabolic steroids for an extended period will kill you outright. Has long term side effects also.

    With the now trans mania in athletics, you have to ask about the testosterone blockers or additions in various new iterations of human beings. I suppose, being now Woke symbols of "tolerance" these things will be exempted.

    Women's athletics will suffer and end (real women that is.) Tiny sprite-sized now "male" former female balance beam gymnasts will start winning those men's sports.

    So what's next for "sports"? Hooking up chess Grand Masters to brain electrodes connected to huge computers to "win" chess games (or Go)?

    With billions of people now available to compete in sports, most elite athletes spend most of their childhoods honing very specific sports skills. Unlike past amateur athletes. If you don't start by age 5 you'll never make it in many "sports" requiring skills/techniques learned just out of diapers.

    So what is the point? Soon we'll just breed them in vitro. Who wants to see that?

    Replies: @JMcG, @J.Ross, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Noops are regularly anecdoted on the chans and every time I see the “Limitless” claims it’s like a marketer’s dream of zero effort max effectiveness. I want to be on a pill that effectively time-travels to erase my youthful intellectual-educational mistakes, plus makes me calmer yet quicker, that sounds like the best pharmaceutical project ever. A pill such that it’s like you had behaved.
    Or, failing that, zinc and Siberian herbs. For mental acuity. Tablespoons and tablespoons of mental acuity.

  70. @Jonathan Mason
    The Olympic games used to be a wonderful celebration of amateur sport, but since it became professionalized and drugified and more and more professional sports have been added, it has become more and more tedious.

    As a 9-year-old boy I was inspired by the Rome Olympics of 1960, some of which I saw on black and white TV. My friends and I staged mini 10,000 meters races, sprints, javelin throwing events, bike races, swimming races, and other events.

    It is now no longer about just winning a faux gold metal for the sake of competing and taking part, but all about the money that can be made after victory by doing endorsements and personal appearances, which is why so many athletes cheat by using drugs that are not allowed in their respective sports.

    I should also point out that in most countries using steroid drugs for sporting enhancement is an illegal drug offense, although you hardly ever hear about athletes and their prescribers being prosecuted. Marion Jones was a big exception.

    Every sport is tainted to some extent. When Tiger Woods became muscle bound, people suspected that he was using steroids, which seemed to affect his behavior.

    Now we have Bryson de Chambeau starting to look like the incredible Hulk, and having temper tantrums to match.

    For years we have had Serena Williams also looking like something straight outta Wakanda, and the NFL looking like the WWW.

    The greatest cyclist of all time was also of course a drug cheat.

    The end result is that children are much less interested in sports now than they used to be, and that future generations of sports fans will fade away.

    Only soccer seems to be relatively untainted.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @kaganovitch, @Old Prude, @Rouetheday, @sb

    Remember the Olympics tried to get rid of wrestling – the noblest of sports and one of the oldest and blessed with the impretur of the original Olypmians. That tells you all you need to know: The new olympics is a fag fest…

    • Agree: Drapetomaniac
  71. @AndrewR
    @Triteleia Laxa

    No one is going to directly notice if all the runners are running 1% faster or whatever. The extra speed might show up in their times but it would be impossible to directly perceive.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    I’m not really into watching sports, especially events like sprinting, but people who are really into it seem to care a lot about small fractions of a second.

  72. ‘…What if we’ve invented drugs that can help you Live Your Best Life without killing you very much?’

    Great minds think alike. This is basically a variation on Brave New World.

  73. @Mr Mox
    @Steve Sailer


    The first Olympian ever disqualified for doping was a Swede, Hans-Gunnar Liljenwall, who had two beers before a pistol marksmanship competition at the 1968 summer games in Mexico City.
     
    https://whyy.org/segments/when-a-bit-of-booze-is-just-the-boost-you-need/

    I was surprised to see alcohol was removed from the doping list a few years ago - as alcohol was/is a well known way to help steading both the gun and the nerves in pistol matches.
    It turns out the change was made for a reason: now the competitors can be tested before matches, not after, as with normal doping tests - which probably is a good thing when firearms are involved.

    I can personally confirm a single drink can improve your pistol score - and spoil your shotgun score!
    Different strokes for different sports...

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

    Low doses of Benzos work even better.

  74. Anon[382] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m not sure how many of the Ethiopian runners like Gebreselassie were on EPO, but that was probably the case for the Chinese long distance runners in the 90s. Ma Junren coached a crop of female runners on his “turtle soup” to snatch up several distance world records from the 1500m to 10000m, one of which still stands while some took over 20 years to be broken. The critical point is that the Chinese have never been shown to possess the genetics for outstanding long distance running, but this coach managed to produce some super athletes, presumably thanks to a well-crafted regimen of PEDs.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    My impression that the very suspicious Chinese lady distance runners of the 1990s weren't part of a centralized plot by Beijing, the way the East German lady runners were doing it with the clear understanding of everybody all the way up. Ma Junren was just some local coach who got his hands on some really good drugs that weren't tested for yet and doped his local runners up to astronomical levels. My impression is that their world records were kind of an embarrassment for the Chinese state.

  75. @Jonathan Mason
    @kaganovitch

    Same number of laps as a 10,000 meters, but with much shorter laps.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Same number of laps as a 10,000 meters, but with much shorter laps.

    10,000 centimeters? 10,000 millimeters?

    Isn’t the whole point of the metric system the ease of switching between orders of magnitude? So you can easily figure how many thumbnails it would need to reach the moon– a critical calculation made unnecessarily complex in Imperial units.

    Twelvepence’s your uncle.

    • Replies: @the one they call Desanex
    @Reg Cæsar

    Jack and Jill went up the hill;
    Each had a bob and thruppence.
    Jill came down with half-a-crown;
    The Pox was her comeuppance.

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @Reg Cæsar

    We were children. We probably did not know what a meter was.

  76. @Boomthorkell
    @Sick of Orcs

    I advocate hosting 6 kinds of Olympics:

    The Eugenics Olympics: Only tools allowed are vitamin supplements, carefully selected diets, and training regimens. Mutants allowed, but no intersex. Separated by Sex, no trans allowed. This is to see what a perfected standard(ish) human can achieve.

    The Bio-Juicer Olympics: How far can a performance enhancing drug or cocktail of drugs push the human form? What about extra organs? No sex separation, all allowed, including trans.

    The Cyber-Olympics: Any non-biological or PED based alteration: Blade Runners, etc.

    The Para-Olympics: Separated into two categories with non-cyber enhanced physical cripples, and the mentally\neurologically disabled or damaged.

    The Super Olympics: anyone can participate, but the most exciting will be Bio-Juicer against Cyber, I think.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Reg Cæsar, @Alfa158, @Sick of Orcs

    The Cyber-Olympics: Any non-biological or PED based alteration: Blade Runners, etc.

    In the year 2524.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @Reg Cæsar

    Ah, I'm counting modern surgical enhancements, like those spiked-blade legs (thus, the Blade Runner reference.)

    It will certainly be more exciting in 2524 if technology continues advancing.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

  77. @Moral Stone
    The two deaths you mentioned appear to have been unrelated to steroids (cocaine overdose and hemangioma in the brain).

    Your question is an interesting one. It has become more common for healthy people to use PEDs including HGH and (relatively) low dose testosterone (TRT) to look better and improve their quality of life. I’m curious to see if there winds up being a noticeable effect on longevity when it is prescribed and managed by a physician.

    Also interesting, drugs like DNP that enhance fat burning have been used historically to aid weight loss (nb - the effects of too high a dose are horrendous and the therapeutic index is narrow). Could safer versions be an unequivocal benefit to longevity in that it could combat all of the health ills from our obesity epidemic?

    I would guess there is still considerable benefit to be reaped by the average American re: better living through chemistry.

    Replies: @SaneClownPosse

    “Could safer versions be an unequivocal benefit to longevity in that it could combat all of the health ills from our obesity epidemic? ”

    How about making it illegal for corporations to produce the cheap, junk food that is the main cause of obesity?

    Same direction, reduce cancer rates by not manufacturing products and foods that cause cancers.

    PS The USN, at least back in the 90s, was handing out Inderal (beta blocker) to the shipboard electronic technicians performing repairs on electronic gear that involved soldering tiny bits together, while cruising the world’s oceans to make them safe for Freedom and Democracy.

  78. @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    Same number of laps as a 10,000 meters, but with much shorter laps.
     
    10,000 centimeters? 10,000 millimeters?

    Isn't the whole point of the metric system the ease of switching between orders of magnitude? So you can easily figure how many thumbnails it would need to reach the moon-- a critical calculation made unnecessarily complex in Imperial units.

    Twelvepence's your uncle.


    https://www.allcoinvalues.com/images/1901-uk-shilling-reverse2c-victoria-28kos29.jpg

    Replies: @the one they call Desanex, @Jonathan Mason

    Jack and Jill went up the hill;
    Each had a bob and thruppence.
    Jill came down with half-a-crown;
    The Pox was her comeuppance.

  79. @Boomthorkell
    @Sick of Orcs

    I advocate hosting 6 kinds of Olympics:

    The Eugenics Olympics: Only tools allowed are vitamin supplements, carefully selected diets, and training regimens. Mutants allowed, but no intersex. Separated by Sex, no trans allowed. This is to see what a perfected standard(ish) human can achieve.

    The Bio-Juicer Olympics: How far can a performance enhancing drug or cocktail of drugs push the human form? What about extra organs? No sex separation, all allowed, including trans.

    The Cyber-Olympics: Any non-biological or PED based alteration: Blade Runners, etc.

    The Para-Olympics: Separated into two categories with non-cyber enhanced physical cripples, and the mentally\neurologically disabled or damaged.

    The Super Olympics: anyone can participate, but the most exciting will be Bio-Juicer against Cyber, I think.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Reg Cæsar, @Alfa158, @Sick of Orcs

    I might watch the Olympics if they went back to the few original events that actually measured useful activities: Who can throw a spear the farthest, who can pick up the heaviest rock, who can punch out everyone else, who can make all the other rasslers cry Uncle, who can run to one side of the field and back the fastest, who can run around the stadium 20 times the fastest, who can jump the farthest etc. I believe the whole thing started to go downhill when someone introduced who can throw a dish the farthest, which is a meaningless activity for anyone except enraged wives.
    I mean, who is actually interested in gymnastic ribbon twirling other than the Moms of the contestants?
    The only thing I would ask is that they don’t also re-introduce competing nude.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @Alfa158

    The discus throw was actually there in the beginning, but the Greeks valued a guy who could lob a heavy, smooth stone far (plus, a fun way to kill people).

    Gymnastics is certainly amazing, but I wouldn't put ribbon twirling on the Olympic list, agreed. Then again, agility training I suppose.

    Ah, see, that's something I definitely want back, but I'm a nudist as well as a purist sometimes. I'd allow it to be optional, out of respect for those not culturally or spiritually advanced enough to appreciate this value.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Alfa158

    The dumbest thing in the current Olympics is "competitive karate kata," which is basically a form of dance. Since historians of martial arts can't even say for sure what the movements are supposed to mean, the competition is enitrely aesthetic.

    Hated seeing the torch lit by Naomi Osaka last night.

    Replies: @RodW

    , @Muggles
    @Alfa158


    The only thing I would ask is that they don’t also re-introduce competing nude.
     
    What a killjoy.

    Just imagine the ratings. Though I don't think it would work for the Winter Olympics.
  80. @Reg Cæsar
    @Boomthorkell


    The Cyber-Olympics: Any non-biological or PED based alteration: Blade Runners, etc.
     
    In the year 2524.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

    Ah, I’m counting modern surgical enhancements, like those spiked-blade legs (thus, the Blade Runner reference.)

    It will certainly be more exciting in 2524 if technology continues advancing.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @Boomthorkell


    It will certainly be more exciting in 2524 if technology continues advancing.
     
    Wow, remember this classic 1960s piece?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izQB2-Kmiic
  81. @Alfa158
    @Boomthorkell

    I might watch the Olympics if they went back to the few original events that actually measured useful activities: Who can throw a spear the farthest, who can pick up the heaviest rock, who can punch out everyone else, who can make all the other rasslers cry Uncle, who can run to one side of the field and back the fastest, who can run around the stadium 20 times the fastest, who can jump the farthest etc. I believe the whole thing started to go downhill when someone introduced who can throw a dish the farthest, which is a meaningless activity for anyone except enraged wives.
    I mean, who is actually interested in gymnastic ribbon twirling other than the Moms of the contestants?
    The only thing I would ask is that they don’t also re-introduce competing nude.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Chrisnonymous, @Muggles

    The discus throw was actually there in the beginning, but the Greeks valued a guy who could lob a heavy, smooth stone far (plus, a fun way to kill people).

    Gymnastics is certainly amazing, but I wouldn’t put ribbon twirling on the Olympic list, agreed. Then again, agility training I suppose.

    Ah, see, that’s something I definitely want back, but I’m a nudist as well as a purist sometimes. I’d allow it to be optional, out of respect for those not culturally or spiritually advanced enough to appreciate this value.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @Boomthorkell

    Yes, they should definitely bring back nude competition. I am pretty sure that that would enhance the TV ratings of many events. Running shoes and soccer boots would be allowed, and protective headgear for cyclists and equestrians.

  82. Sprinting gets a bad wrap for drug cheating – it’s deserved but I’m sceptical it’s an especially dirty sport.

    Just from fat free mass sprinters aren’t outlandish – always being a reasonable weight for their height. Though sprinters are very lean and muscular by “natural” standards they have some of the most mesomorphic West African genetics in the world. So we know many aren’t natural but I suspect the dosages are low.

    I’ve long proposed that PEDS benefit African runners (who bulk more in the upper than lower limbs) disproportionately.

    Strength sports are different. The athletes have disproportionate muscle mass in comparison to their height. These athletes don’t necessarily come from the most mesomorphic stock and there’s a more predictable relationship between muscle mass and strength than speed.

    Strength sports would be dirtier than sprinting – higher dosages and more dependency on drugs. Particularly women’s strength sports where low base levels of T means a little doping goes a long way (but why stop there?).

    It’s very suspicious that China’s gold medal tally is largely propped up by winning EVERY women’s weightlifting gold medal?
    Is your impression that Asian women are naturally strong in the same way that West Africans are naturally fast?

  83. If a male weightlifter^ can cut off his d* and then qualify for the female competition, then 50 years from now a sprinter should be allowed to compete with bionic legs.

    ^The only Tokyo Olympic sport I’m planning to watch. Go He/She!

  84. @theMann
    @Sick of Orcs

    Bullshit.

    If using PEDs is cheating, then weight training, hiring a Nutritionist, Biofeedback, and a host of other actions are cheating.

    Telling people to be the best competitors in the world, but dont take these drugs because "cheating", is simply idiotic. They are focused on being the best in the world at something, so they are going to take PEDs.

    Making them hide it is the cheating.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs, @Eric Novak, @Drapetomaniac

    Telling people to be the best competitors in the world, but dont take these drugs because “cheating”, is simply idiotic. They are focused on being the best in the world at something, so they are going to take PEDs.

    Not playing by the rules is cheating. Your tangent about what and what shouldn’t be considered cheating is valid but doesn’t change that.

    There have to be agreed-upon rules and standards, otherwise you might as well “compete” in the Tour de France on a motorcycle.

    • Agree: Drapetomaniac
  85. @Boomthorkell
    @Sick of Orcs

    I advocate hosting 6 kinds of Olympics:

    The Eugenics Olympics: Only tools allowed are vitamin supplements, carefully selected diets, and training regimens. Mutants allowed, but no intersex. Separated by Sex, no trans allowed. This is to see what a perfected standard(ish) human can achieve.

    The Bio-Juicer Olympics: How far can a performance enhancing drug or cocktail of drugs push the human form? What about extra organs? No sex separation, all allowed, including trans.

    The Cyber-Olympics: Any non-biological or PED based alteration: Blade Runners, etc.

    The Para-Olympics: Separated into two categories with non-cyber enhanced physical cripples, and the mentally\neurologically disabled or damaged.

    The Super Olympics: anyone can participate, but the most exciting will be Bio-Juicer against Cyber, I think.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Reg Cæsar, @Alfa158, @Sick of Orcs

    For economic reasons your suggested categories are likely the future. Right now, transweirdos should only compete against other transweirdos and be recorded in their own category, apart from normals.

    • Agree: Boomthorkell
  86. @Alfa158
    @Boomthorkell

    I might watch the Olympics if they went back to the few original events that actually measured useful activities: Who can throw a spear the farthest, who can pick up the heaviest rock, who can punch out everyone else, who can make all the other rasslers cry Uncle, who can run to one side of the field and back the fastest, who can run around the stadium 20 times the fastest, who can jump the farthest etc. I believe the whole thing started to go downhill when someone introduced who can throw a dish the farthest, which is a meaningless activity for anyone except enraged wives.
    I mean, who is actually interested in gymnastic ribbon twirling other than the Moms of the contestants?
    The only thing I would ask is that they don’t also re-introduce competing nude.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Chrisnonymous, @Muggles

    The dumbest thing in the current Olympics is “competitive karate kata,” which is basically a form of dance. Since historians of martial arts can’t even say for sure what the movements are supposed to mean, the competition is enitrely aesthetic.

    Hated seeing the torch lit by Naomi Osaka last night.

    • Replies: @RodW
    @Chrisnonymous


    Hated seeing the torch lit by Naomi Osaka last night.
     
    Same here. She can barely speak Japanese and has zero allegiance to the country she claims to be a part of. Her Black Lies Matter evangelism should also have disqualified her.
  87. @Jonathan Mason
    The Olympic games used to be a wonderful celebration of amateur sport, but since it became professionalized and drugified and more and more professional sports have been added, it has become more and more tedious.

    As a 9-year-old boy I was inspired by the Rome Olympics of 1960, some of which I saw on black and white TV. My friends and I staged mini 10,000 meters races, sprints, javelin throwing events, bike races, swimming races, and other events.

    It is now no longer about just winning a faux gold metal for the sake of competing and taking part, but all about the money that can be made after victory by doing endorsements and personal appearances, which is why so many athletes cheat by using drugs that are not allowed in their respective sports.

    I should also point out that in most countries using steroid drugs for sporting enhancement is an illegal drug offense, although you hardly ever hear about athletes and their prescribers being prosecuted. Marion Jones was a big exception.

    Every sport is tainted to some extent. When Tiger Woods became muscle bound, people suspected that he was using steroids, which seemed to affect his behavior.

    Now we have Bryson de Chambeau starting to look like the incredible Hulk, and having temper tantrums to match.

    For years we have had Serena Williams also looking like something straight outta Wakanda, and the NFL looking like the WWW.

    The greatest cyclist of all time was also of course a drug cheat.

    The end result is that children are much less interested in sports now than they used to be, and that future generations of sports fans will fade away.

    Only soccer seems to be relatively untainted.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @kaganovitch, @Old Prude, @Rouetheday, @sb

    The greatest cyclist of all time was Eddy Merckx. There is no argument among people who follow the sport closely. Presumably you are referring to Lance Armstrong. Though, perhaps not, as Merckx was himself penalized on several occasions for use of barbiturates. Feel free to clear things up for us…

  88. “A question I’ve been wondering about lately, however, is: What if PEDs really aren’t that deadly?”

    They aren’t. Go to the CDC and look up how many deaths are from “steroids”. It’s probably still zero. Steve, growth hormone and testosterone are good things, despite the 35 year propaganda campaign to vilify them.

    “What if they provide more health benefits than their costs?”

    They do, and there is no “if” about it.

    “For example, Ken Caminiti..”

    Died of a combined cocaine and heroin overdose. Reminds me of the remarkably high number of more famous dead pro wrestlers – most of which used steroids – who abused hardcore narcotics and painkillers for much of their wrestling careers.

    “Florence Griffith-Joyner…”

    died in her sleep of a seizure brought on by a some kind of deformity in her brain. Jesus Christ Steve, you’re treading a fine line between spin and blatant lying.

    The is an interesting similarity to you assigning causes of death to steroids compared to the way coroners have been assigning motorcycle crashes to covid.

    • Replies: @Eric Novak
    @Mike Tre

    Yes, a deformity that was a side-effect of steroid use.

    , @Eric Novak
    @Mike Tre

    Go to the CDC and see how many deaths there are from Quarter Pounders with Cheese and Newport 100s.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @anon

  89. @Muggles
    Caffeine is of course not considered a PED though when coffee was first introduced in Europe it was often banned as some kind of evil substance addicting users and turning them into coffee house revolutionaries (that might have had some truth to it.)

    It is well known that the Germans in WWII gave their troops (and Der Fuehrer) meth tablets which worked until you burned out. The USAF uses these on long duration bombing runs. Probably other military uses.

    Vitamin B-12 gives an energy boost. I don't think that is considered a PED though perhaps at some large dosages it may be.

    My trainer said, after I asked him, that taking anabolic steroids for an extended period will kill you outright. Has long term side effects also.

    With the now trans mania in athletics, you have to ask about the testosterone blockers or additions in various new iterations of human beings. I suppose, being now Woke symbols of "tolerance" these things will be exempted.

    Women's athletics will suffer and end (real women that is.) Tiny sprite-sized now "male" former female balance beam gymnasts will start winning those men's sports.

    So what's next for "sports"? Hooking up chess Grand Masters to brain electrodes connected to huge computers to "win" chess games (or Go)?

    With billions of people now available to compete in sports, most elite athletes spend most of their childhoods honing very specific sports skills. Unlike past amateur athletes. If you don't start by age 5 you'll never make it in many "sports" requiring skills/techniques learned just out of diapers.

    So what is the point? Soon we'll just breed them in vitro. Who wants to see that?

    Replies: @JMcG, @J.Ross, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “So what is the point? Soon we’ll just breed them in vitro. Who wants to see that?”

    If you upload it, they will come.

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    If you upload it, they will come.
     
    I'm afraid you might be right.

    Then it becomes a contest of who has the best geneticists? Nerd vs. nerd?

    Or, with required training, is it also nature versus nurture?

    All things considered, I'm turning the channel...

    MH
  90. @Boomthorkell
    @Reg Cæsar

    Ah, I'm counting modern surgical enhancements, like those spiked-blade legs (thus, the Blade Runner reference.)

    It will certainly be more exciting in 2524 if technology continues advancing.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

    It will certainly be more exciting in 2524 if technology continues advancing.

    Wow, remember this classic 1960s piece?

    • Thanks: Boomthorkell
  91. @Anon
    I'm not sure how many of the Ethiopian runners like Gebreselassie were on EPO, but that was probably the case for the Chinese long distance runners in the 90s. Ma Junren coached a crop of female runners on his "turtle soup" to snatch up several distance world records from the 1500m to 10000m, one of which still stands while some took over 20 years to be broken. The critical point is that the Chinese have never been shown to possess the genetics for outstanding long distance running, but this coach managed to produce some super athletes, presumably thanks to a well-crafted regimen of PEDs.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    My impression that the very suspicious Chinese lady distance runners of the 1990s weren’t part of a centralized plot by Beijing, the way the East German lady runners were doing it with the clear understanding of everybody all the way up. Ma Junren was just some local coach who got his hands on some really good drugs that weren’t tested for yet and doped his local runners up to astronomical levels. My impression is that their world records were kind of an embarrassment for the Chinese state.

  92. @JMcG
    @Muggles

    I recently read something about Reinhold Messner that took me by surprise. It may have been in a book by Chris Bonington or maybe in The Boys of Everest. Reinhold Messner is arguably the greatest high-altitude mountaineer who’s ever lived. He was the first to summit all fourteen 8000 meter peaks.
    What shocked me was that Messner used Pervetin during many of his ascents. Pervetin is the same drug that the Germans issued to their troops during the second world war. It’s methamphetamine. It struck me as funny that supplemental oxygen was seen as unsporting, yet methamphetamine was acceptable.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Thanks.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Steve Sailer

    I’ll see if I can dig up where exactly I read that.

    , @JMcG
    @Steve Sailer

    Careful, there’s an Outside magazine article from 2013 that states Messner has never used anything besides aspirin. I’ll keep looking.

  93. @Trinity
    Wonder what sort of PEDs Bobby Fischer used back in the day. I mean if Olympic archers have to take PEDs then what about chess wizards?

    Fischer was certainly hip to the JQ before being hip to the JQ was cool. Should "speed chess" be added to the Olympic games? I mean SI did a story on Fischer back when he beat that Russkie guy named Spassky. And hell, even yachting has been in the Olympics IF I am not mistaken. Wonder if those yacht guys take HGH?

    Should team jigsaw puzzle events be added to the Olympics. The 500 piece, the 1,000 piece and the marathon 10,000 piece two man jigsaw puzzle competition?

    Cue: I Was Country When Country Wasn't Cool by Barbara Mandrell.

    Replies: @Polymath

    I knew several of Bobby’s closest friends. He was very careful about what went into his body. Big fan of high quality beef, fruit juice, and healthy outdoor exercise like walking, swimming, and hiking. He might have taken vitamins but he definitely did not want anything that might affect his brain, his energy and concentration were already top level.

  94. @Steve Sailer
    @JMcG

    Thanks.

    Replies: @JMcG, @JMcG

    I’ll see if I can dig up where exactly I read that.

  95. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Muggles

    "So what is the point? Soon we’ll just breed them in vitro. Who wants to see that?"

    If you upload it, they will come.

    Replies: @Muggles

    If you upload it, they will come.

    I’m afraid you might be right.

    Then it becomes a contest of who has the best geneticists? Nerd vs. nerd?

    Or, with required training, is it also nature versus nurture?

    All things considered, I’m turning the channel…

    MH

  96. The best drug invented recently has no side effects in 9,999 out of 10k people, treats depression (and lately OCD and even nicotine addiction) with a possible success rate of close to 90% , is already nearly as big as Prozac, and isn’t a drug. It’s TMS — Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation. Don’t take my word for it, though. Research.

  97. @Steve Sailer
    @JMcG

    Thanks.

    Replies: @JMcG, @JMcG

    Careful, there’s an Outside magazine article from 2013 that states Messner has never used anything besides aspirin. I’ll keep looking.

  98. So, where are we in 2021?

    Well, since you asked, I am exactly the same place I was in the 90’s when this became a (boomer) issue.

    WHO CARES? If you have spent 10,000 hours in the gym, practicing the throwing of a ball or running between two lines, I frankly don’t give a shit if you have used PEDs. The rest of us have had to work shit jobs, accept complete bullshit AA promotions while we languish, and watch as the (alien) media castigates us for the failure of the incompetents.

    The absolute least you can do, as a coddled freak whose sole claim is to be able to run fast, is to enhance that shit by any means necessary!

  99. I still laugh when I see the footage of the Chinese “ female” swimmers parading around the pool, displaying their massive v look. Yet they were on herbal turtle soup. And if I remember correctly, Australia gave them a state of the art high- tech drug analyser that allowed the Chinese athletes to train and perform with drugs and to know when they were nearing the IOC limits.
    I remember in past Tour de France races where cyclists dropped dead from the effects of EPO, as it thickens the blood until it won’t flow properly. That’s dedication, dying for your sport.

  100. @theMann
    @Sick of Orcs

    Bullshit.

    If using PEDs is cheating, then weight training, hiring a Nutritionist, Biofeedback, and a host of other actions are cheating.

    Telling people to be the best competitors in the world, but dont take these drugs because "cheating", is simply idiotic. They are focused on being the best in the world at something, so they are going to take PEDs.

    Making them hide it is the cheating.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs, @Eric Novak, @Drapetomaniac

    Comparing steroid use to consulting with a nutritionist is moronic. You must have narrowing of blood vessels in the brain yourself.

  101. @Mike Tre

    "A question I’ve been wondering about lately, however, is: What if PEDs really aren’t that deadly?"
     
    They aren't. Go to the CDC and look up how many deaths are from "steroids". It's probably still zero. Steve, growth hormone and testosterone are good things, despite the 35 year propaganda campaign to vilify them.

    "What if they provide more health benefits than their costs?"
     
    They do, and there is no "if" about it.

    "For example, Ken Caminiti.."
     
    Died of a combined cocaine and heroin overdose. Reminds me of the remarkably high number of more famous dead pro wrestlers - most of which used steroids - who abused hardcore narcotics and painkillers for much of their wrestling careers.

    "Florence Griffith-Joyner..."
     
    died in her sleep of a seizure brought on by a some kind of deformity in her brain. Jesus Christ Steve, you're treading a fine line between spin and blatant lying.

    The is an interesting similarity to you assigning causes of death to steroids compared to the way coroners have been assigning motorcycle crashes to covid.

    Replies: @Eric Novak, @Eric Novak

    Yes, a deformity that was a side-effect of steroid use.

  102. @Mike Tre

    "A question I’ve been wondering about lately, however, is: What if PEDs really aren’t that deadly?"
     
    They aren't. Go to the CDC and look up how many deaths are from "steroids". It's probably still zero. Steve, growth hormone and testosterone are good things, despite the 35 year propaganda campaign to vilify them.

    "What if they provide more health benefits than their costs?"
     
    They do, and there is no "if" about it.

    "For example, Ken Caminiti.."
     
    Died of a combined cocaine and heroin overdose. Reminds me of the remarkably high number of more famous dead pro wrestlers - most of which used steroids - who abused hardcore narcotics and painkillers for much of their wrestling careers.

    "Florence Griffith-Joyner..."
     
    died in her sleep of a seizure brought on by a some kind of deformity in her brain. Jesus Christ Steve, you're treading a fine line between spin and blatant lying.

    The is an interesting similarity to you assigning causes of death to steroids compared to the way coroners have been assigning motorcycle crashes to covid.

    Replies: @Eric Novak, @Eric Novak

    Go to the CDC and see how many deaths there are from Quarter Pounders with Cheese and Newport 100s.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Eric Novak

    Those would be directly linked to lung cancer and obesity/type II diabetes. There is no such link between steroids and any cause of death. Try again.

    And in reply to your other comment, that is an absurd lie. Testosterone nor its variants cause brain deformities. You're reaching Tiny Duck level lines of reasoning.

    Replies: @Eric Novak

    , @anon
    @Eric Novak

    Go to the CDC and see how many deaths there are from Quarter Pounders with Cheese and Newport 100s.

    Um, for the last 18 months or so, every one of those deaths was due to COVID-19.
    Every. Single. One.

  103. Just for the sake of evenhandedness
    We all know about Lance Armstrong
    Has there ever been an American road cyclist who hasn’t been a doper ? ( we know that 100% of Armstrong’s generation were )
    And they are all white

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @sb

    Every cyclist in the TdF is doping. Every single one.

  104. The tragicomic tale of a snooker legend’s attempt to control a tremor using beta-blockers:

    https://drunkard.com/top-drunks-big-bill-werbeniuk/

  105. @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    Same number of laps as a 10,000 meters, but with much shorter laps.
     
    10,000 centimeters? 10,000 millimeters?

    Isn't the whole point of the metric system the ease of switching between orders of magnitude? So you can easily figure how many thumbnails it would need to reach the moon-- a critical calculation made unnecessarily complex in Imperial units.

    Twelvepence's your uncle.


    https://www.allcoinvalues.com/images/1901-uk-shilling-reverse2c-victoria-28kos29.jpg

    Replies: @the one they call Desanex, @Jonathan Mason

    We were children. We probably did not know what a meter was.

  106. @Jonathan Mason
    The Olympic games used to be a wonderful celebration of amateur sport, but since it became professionalized and drugified and more and more professional sports have been added, it has become more and more tedious.

    As a 9-year-old boy I was inspired by the Rome Olympics of 1960, some of which I saw on black and white TV. My friends and I staged mini 10,000 meters races, sprints, javelin throwing events, bike races, swimming races, and other events.

    It is now no longer about just winning a faux gold metal for the sake of competing and taking part, but all about the money that can be made after victory by doing endorsements and personal appearances, which is why so many athletes cheat by using drugs that are not allowed in their respective sports.

    I should also point out that in most countries using steroid drugs for sporting enhancement is an illegal drug offense, although you hardly ever hear about athletes and their prescribers being prosecuted. Marion Jones was a big exception.

    Every sport is tainted to some extent. When Tiger Woods became muscle bound, people suspected that he was using steroids, which seemed to affect his behavior.

    Now we have Bryson de Chambeau starting to look like the incredible Hulk, and having temper tantrums to match.

    For years we have had Serena Williams also looking like something straight outta Wakanda, and the NFL looking like the WWW.

    The greatest cyclist of all time was also of course a drug cheat.

    The end result is that children are much less interested in sports now than they used to be, and that future generations of sports fans will fade away.

    Only soccer seems to be relatively untainted.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @kaganovitch, @Old Prude, @Rouetheday, @sb

    I’m just wondering who you think is the greatest cyclist of all time .
    Just about everyone who follows these things around the world would say that would be Eddy Merckx . But maybe it’s different where you come from ?

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    @sb

    Eddy Merckx and Robert Marchand.

  107. @Boomthorkell
    @Alfa158

    The discus throw was actually there in the beginning, but the Greeks valued a guy who could lob a heavy, smooth stone far (plus, a fun way to kill people).

    Gymnastics is certainly amazing, but I wouldn't put ribbon twirling on the Olympic list, agreed. Then again, agility training I suppose.

    Ah, see, that's something I definitely want back, but I'm a nudist as well as a purist sometimes. I'd allow it to be optional, out of respect for those not culturally or spiritually advanced enough to appreciate this value.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    Yes, they should definitely bring back nude competition. I am pretty sure that that would enhance the TV ratings of many events. Running shoes and soccer boots would be allowed, and protective headgear for cyclists and equestrians.

  108. @Eric Novak
    @Mike Tre

    Go to the CDC and see how many deaths there are from Quarter Pounders with Cheese and Newport 100s.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @anon

    Those would be directly linked to lung cancer and obesity/type II diabetes. There is no such link between steroids and any cause of death. Try again.

    And in reply to your other comment, that is an absurd lie. Testosterone nor its variants cause brain deformities. You’re reaching Tiny Duck level lines of reasoning.

    • Replies: @Eric Novak
    @Mike Tre

    Steroids are implicated in a large number of chronic diseases, as any diagnostic and epidemiological manual will show. Tiny, is that you?

  109. @Chrisnonymous
    @Alfa158

    The dumbest thing in the current Olympics is "competitive karate kata," which is basically a form of dance. Since historians of martial arts can't even say for sure what the movements are supposed to mean, the competition is enitrely aesthetic.

    Hated seeing the torch lit by Naomi Osaka last night.

    Replies: @RodW

    Hated seeing the torch lit by Naomi Osaka last night.

    Same here. She can barely speak Japanese and has zero allegiance to the country she claims to be a part of. Her Black Lies Matter evangelism should also have disqualified her.

  110. @Trinity
    Death by steroids is usually EXAGGERATED and PURPOSELY misdiagnosed and so is the mythical "roid rage." Steroids and (((coronavirus))) have been FALSELY attributed to more deaths than cancer. lolololol.

    Bodybuilders and professional rasslers, both notorious steroid abusers, probably can attribute a lot of their health problems to being overweight and abusing just as many recreational drugs and alcohol as steroids. Of course bad genetics can be attributed to heart conditions, male pattern baldness, diabetes, etc., all things associated with "steroid abuse" but a person who never touches a steroid or any other drug can develop these things if past family members suffered from these issues.

    Both bodybuilders and rasslers have a lot of people who die relatively young. Your heart actually has a harder time pumping blood with a 300lb muscle man than a 300lb bucket of lard and goo so the massive bodybuilder with a relatively low fat percentage is putting his heart through more of a workload than the Oreo scarfing 300lb whale with a 46" waist. And pain medication contributes to a lot of rassler's problems, those guys really beat up their bodies. And lest we keep forgetting genetics. I knew a health nut who biked, ran, lifted light weights in his garage, was super strict about weight and diet and he keeled over from a heart attack at fifty something. This guy wouldn't have taken anything stronger than a multivitamin.

    I can remember even in the late Seventies when guys at the YMCA of all places were taking Dianabol which was perfectly legal back then. Hell, they had an Olympic weightlifting team at this small YMCA. Lee James, a silver medalist in Montreal got his start there and another lifter competed in the Seoul Olympics. Had some decent gymnasts there as well. Anyhow, they had one guy there who did the Olympic lifts and the guy sucked hard. He took Dianabol and the kid never got any better nor did his body change much. The guy was weak and steroids did little if anything to improve him. Steroids are not a miracle drug that will produce champions or make you something you are not. You have to have some level of skill, talent or physicality. I am sure the guys that went on to the Olympics PROBABLY took something a little more advanced than D-bol but from what I saw back then, Dianabol certainly didn't produce any over the top results. Of course now they have designer steroids, growth hormone and all kinds of weird shit.

    Who knows when this shit hit sports like golf, long distance bicycling, and baseball. Used to be a baseball player wouldn't even lift weights much less take steroids. I can remember watching Dick Allen chain smoke cigarettes, Mickey Lolich waddle out to the mound and pitch a shutout, and looking at how fat Boog Powell looked in those Orioles all orange uniforms from the Seventies. Speaking of chain smoking world class athletes, Carlos Monzon was a multiple pack smoker a day even in training and it never hurt his stamina. Dave Rigert, Soviet weightlifter smoked a great deal as well and while a weightlifter doesn't need wind like a world class boxer, smoking nor steroids didn't really cause health issues with Rigert. GENETICS > steroid abuse.

    Replies: @Morton's toes

    Speaking of chain smoking world class athletes, Carlos Monzon was a multiple pack smoker a day even in training and it never hurt his stamina. Dave Rigert, Soviet weightlifter smoked a great deal as well and while a weightlifter doesn’t need wind like a world class boxer, smoking nor steroids didn’t really cause health issues with Rigert.

    There is nearly no chance this claim is accurate. Those fellows would have improved their lives if they dumped the cigarettes. P~.999

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Morton's toes

    Monzon was jailed for killing his girlfriend and would die in an auto accident. Monzon is not the only world class or world champion boxer who smoked cigarettes. Others were Leon Spinks, Ricardo Mayorga, and I am sure a few others. Tony Galento was a cigar smoker, beer swilling and hot dog eating machine but it didn't stop the little butterball from being a world class heavyweight and beating some fine fighters. Lionel Rose was yet another world champion boxer who trained on tobacco. Rose was often seen smoking a pipe even during training.

    Jesse Owens was a cigarette smoker as I am sure a lot of the old school athletes were back in the day. I am sure the NFL, MLB, NHL and NBA were loaded with smokers back in the 50's thru 70's. Brian Oldfield a world class shot putter would be seen smoking cigarettes between throws. Oldfield despite being 6'5" and 280lbs could be Olympic level female sprinters in short distance races and even did pretty good against Lynn Swann in one of those old Superstars competitions.

    I saw Rigert interviewed a few times on Wide World Of Sports back in the Seventies and he could be seen smoking so that is indeed a FACT.

    Monzon was also a heavy smoker and that is indeed a FACT. I have listed just a few examples of world class or world champion athletes who were known to enjoy a good smoke but I am sure there were many a few decades ago.

    Talent and raw ability can take you along way despite bad habits.

  111. @Alfa158
    @Boomthorkell

    I might watch the Olympics if they went back to the few original events that actually measured useful activities: Who can throw a spear the farthest, who can pick up the heaviest rock, who can punch out everyone else, who can make all the other rasslers cry Uncle, who can run to one side of the field and back the fastest, who can run around the stadium 20 times the fastest, who can jump the farthest etc. I believe the whole thing started to go downhill when someone introduced who can throw a dish the farthest, which is a meaningless activity for anyone except enraged wives.
    I mean, who is actually interested in gymnastic ribbon twirling other than the Moms of the contestants?
    The only thing I would ask is that they don’t also re-introduce competing nude.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Chrisnonymous, @Muggles

    The only thing I would ask is that they don’t also re-introduce competing nude.

    What a killjoy.

    Just imagine the ratings. Though I don’t think it would work for the Winter Olympics.

  112. @Eric Novak
    @Mike Tre

    Go to the CDC and see how many deaths there are from Quarter Pounders with Cheese and Newport 100s.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @anon

    Go to the CDC and see how many deaths there are from Quarter Pounders with Cheese and Newport 100s.

    Um, for the last 18 months or so, every one of those deaths was due to COVID-19.
    Every. Single. One.

  113. @Yancey Ward
    You can't ban beta-blockers- they really are a necessary drug for a lot of people- my mother takes one. Banning beta-blockers will surely run afoul of the ADA in the US if even one golfer challenges it. Testosterone is also a necessary drug for a lot of older men to live a decent existence, and even a lot of younger ones.

    My stand has long been- don't test for anything. If someone wants to put a synthetic hormone or drug into their body, it is their call. I just assume they are all doped up at the highest levels of performance, and just that not all of them get caught. Seriously- all of Lance Armstrong's true competitors were doing the same things he did, they just didn't have teammates and staff ratting them out because they never won.

    Replies: @Pericles

    I think you should stop competing if you require e.g. beta blockers or testosterone (or various anti-asthmatics to take an infamous example) to function. No need to ban these drugs for medical use, of course.

  114. @theMann
    @Sick of Orcs

    Bullshit.

    If using PEDs is cheating, then weight training, hiring a Nutritionist, Biofeedback, and a host of other actions are cheating.

    Telling people to be the best competitors in the world, but dont take these drugs because "cheating", is simply idiotic. They are focused on being the best in the world at something, so they are going to take PEDs.

    Making them hide it is the cheating.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs, @Eric Novak, @Drapetomaniac

    I hope they don’t discriminate against me when I wear my full-body powered exo-skeleton to compete in the next Olympics. Wet technology is so Greek Olympics.

    Compared to other animals H. sapiens isn’t very good at much except abstract logical thinking. Even that is only because of a small portion of the population.

  115. @sb
    @Jonathan Mason

    I'm just wondering who you think is the greatest cyclist of all time .
    Just about everyone who follows these things around the world would say that would be Eddy Merckx . But maybe it's different where you come from ?

    Replies: @Drapetomaniac

    Eddy Merckx and Robert Marchand.

  116. @Mike Tre
    @Eric Novak

    Those would be directly linked to lung cancer and obesity/type II diabetes. There is no such link between steroids and any cause of death. Try again.

    And in reply to your other comment, that is an absurd lie. Testosterone nor its variants cause brain deformities. You're reaching Tiny Duck level lines of reasoning.

    Replies: @Eric Novak

    Steroids are implicated in a large number of chronic diseases, as any diagnostic and epidemiological manual will show. Tiny, is that you?

  117. @Morton's toes
    @Trinity


    Speaking of chain smoking world class athletes, Carlos Monzon was a multiple pack smoker a day even in training and it never hurt his stamina. Dave Rigert, Soviet weightlifter smoked a great deal as well and while a weightlifter doesn’t need wind like a world class boxer, smoking nor steroids didn’t really cause health issues with Rigert.
     
    There is nearly no chance this claim is accurate. Those fellows would have improved their lives if they dumped the cigarettes. P~.999

    Replies: @Trinity

    Monzon was jailed for killing his girlfriend and would die in an auto accident. Monzon is not the only world class or world champion boxer who smoked cigarettes. Others were Leon Spinks, Ricardo Mayorga, and I am sure a few others. Tony Galento was a cigar smoker, beer swilling and hot dog eating machine but it didn’t stop the little butterball from being a world class heavyweight and beating some fine fighters. Lionel Rose was yet another world champion boxer who trained on tobacco. Rose was often seen smoking a pipe even during training.

    Jesse Owens was a cigarette smoker as I am sure a lot of the old school athletes were back in the day. I am sure the NFL, MLB, NHL and NBA were loaded with smokers back in the 50’s thru 70’s. Brian Oldfield a world class shot putter would be seen smoking cigarettes between throws. Oldfield despite being 6’5″ and 280lbs could be Olympic level female sprinters in short distance races and even did pretty good against Lynn Swann in one of those old Superstars competitions.

    I saw Rigert interviewed a few times on Wide World Of Sports back in the Seventies and he could be seen smoking so that is indeed a FACT.

    Monzon was also a heavy smoker and that is indeed a FACT. I have listed just a few examples of world class or world champion athletes who were known to enjoy a good smoke but I am sure there were many a few decades ago.

    Talent and raw ability can take you along way despite bad habits.

  118. @sb
    Just for the sake of evenhandedness
    We all know about Lance Armstrong
    Has there ever been an American road cyclist who hasn't been a doper ? ( we know that 100% of Armstrong's generation were )
    And they are all white

    Replies: @JMcG

    Every cyclist in the TdF is doping. Every single one.

  119. My father synthesized one of the Beta Blockers in 1960, so he was one of the earliest researchers. His didn’t turn out to quite as useful as the one later used by musicians and archers to control anxiety but it is still used to control symptoms of angina, to lower blood pressure and for its antiarrhythmic properties, according to Wikipedia.

    “Sotalol was first synthesized in 1960 by….” Wikipedia

    “Sotalol was first described in 1964 and came into medical use in 1974.” Wikipedia

    What’s the difference between “synthesized” and “described”? A Nobel Prize?

    “The discovery of propranolol was hailed as the greatest breakthrough in the treatment of heart disease since the discovery of digitalis” Wiki on James Black.

    “Propranolol was patented in 1962….” Wikipedia

    James Black won the Nobel Prize for his development of Propranolol which was patented in 1962, two years after my father’s Beta blocker.

    On the history of the British company Black was working for….

    “A trade name for propranolol was needed, and the near-anagram of Alderlin, Inderal,
    was selected. A new advisory body, the Committee on the Safety of Drugs (later re-named
    the Committee on Safety of Medicines (CSM) ) had just been created, and although in these
    early days propranolol could have been marketed without a CSM submission, ICI’s
    Medical Department decided ‘‘as an exercise’’ to prepare one.

    For this, further toxicity and distribution studies were carried out.

    However, even before its launch, ICI was beginning to experience competition from
    other companies. Mead Johnson had recently developed the beta-receptor antagonist
    sotalol.
    Although less active than Inderal, it was also less toxic. Being very water soluble,
    it showed less penetration of the central nervous system (CNS) (which led to side-effects
    such as nightmares and hallucinations) and had a greater therapeutic ratio.

    This potential threat to Inderal led to the synthesis of further analogues, including 50,172 (practolol,
    Eraldin) which was to succeed, although never replace, Inderal…”

    Medical History, 2006 Putting Theory into Practice: James Black …

    “As sotalol lacks direct effects it has an advantage over propranolol when specific adrenergic β-receptor blockades are required.” Science Direct, April 1999

    I’m not quite sure why Black was awarded the Nobel Prize and is credited with being the “inventor of Beta blockers” when my father had published his discovery two years before Black had. Maybe it was for his (Black’s) later work on ulcers.

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