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Setting aside land for sport has been controversial at least since 1066. Wikipedia notes:
[Royal] forests were designed as hunting areas reserved for the monarch or (by invitation) the aristocracy … The concept was introduced by the Normans to England in the 11th century, and at the height of this practice in the late 12th and early 13th centuries, fully one-third of the land area of southern England was designated as royal forest; … Afforestation, in particular the creation of the New Forest, figured large in the folk history of the “Norman Yoke” …
Five clauses of the 1215 Magna Carta were devoted to limiting the king’s right to hunting lands.
In the British Isles, golf was traditionally less controversial, since it originated upon sand dunes and could coexist with the main economic use of the land: grazing sheep. In China, however, building golf courses has proven a predictable hot button.
In the early 1980s, Jack Nicklaus was hired to design an expensive par 3 (short) golf course for a resort on the Cayman Islands. Since he also owned a golf ball company, he came up with the idea of marketing a golf ball that went only half as far, thus requiring golf courses to be only 1/4th as big (0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25).
Nicklaus’s Cayman Ball was a huge flop: if you could drive a regular ball 240 yards, why would you want to hit a Cayman Ball only 120 yards? On the other hand, if you’d never hit a regular ball, hitting a Cayman Ball the distance from one goalposts to the other goalposts on an American football field would still be pretty satisfying.
I recall thinking at the time that while I didn’t really know all that much about being emperor of China, if I were Dictator Deng, I would decree that golf in China would only be played with half-distance balls.
Indeed, this bit of foresight would have saved the Communist Party no end of trouble. From the New York Times:
Mukden, Manchuria
China Cracks Down on the ‘Sport for Millionaires’
By AUSTIN RAMZY APRIL 18, 2015HONG KONG — President Xi Jinping’s crackdown on vice and corruption in China has gone after drugs, gambling, prostitution, ill-gotten wealth and overflowing banquet tables. Now it has turned to a less obvious target: golf. …
“This is Xi Jinping’s China, and it’s clear he’s intent on making his mark,” Mr. Washburn said. “Everyone’s a potential target in this ongoing crackdown on corruption, and golf is a particularly easy and obvious one.”
Golf has faced harsh suppression in China before. When the Communist Party came to power in 1949, Mao Zedong condemned the game as a “sport for millionaires,” and courses that had been built for foreigners were turned into public parks, zoos and communal farms.
Fidel Castro ploughed under Cuba’s golf courses, too. (Here’s the puzzling story of Che Guevara teaching Castro how to play golf, either to mock the golf-loving Eisenhower or to prepare for a chummy 18 with Ike at Burning Tree.)
Castro, of course, promoted baseball, which itself requires a fair amount of land.
… The national government banned the construction of new courses in 2004, citing concern over the environmental impact of unrestrained development. But even that did not stop the game’s rise. In defiance of the ban, the number of courses in China has grown more than threefold since then, to more than 600 today, according to industry estimates. …
“Golf, because of its high cost and unique glamour, has been called the ‘aristocrats’ game,’ ” the newspaper said. “But an awkward truth is that because of ‘rotten’ golf, some officials have been punished or even jailed.”
Chinese journalism tends to sound like it was written for your high school newspaper.
… If time on the links is almost required of politicians in the United States, Chinese leaders zealously avoid the game. The one top-level official known to have regularly played golf, Zhao Ziyang, was deposed as party chief by hard-liners during the 1989 Tiananmen protests and spent the rest of his life under house arrest for his support of the student-led demonstrations.
Golf is connected with Scottish Enlightenment values.
Still, Chinese golfers are not ready to abandon their new passion. “I’m still playing,” said a 60-year-old golfer in Beijing who would only give his surname, Zhang. “It’s already in the next Olympic Games, so the state will definitely support it.”
Golf is going to be a lousy Olympic sport, but the Olympics will keep the Chinese Communist Party from fully de-legitimizing it.
In general, outdoor ball and stick games (golf, baseball, cricket) take more room per player than outdoor games using inflated balls (soccer, football, rugby Australian Rules football).
An adult baseball field, including foul territory takes up maybe 2.5 acres, and accommodates 10 athletes at once (nine fielders and one hitter), or about 0.25 acres per active athlete (three times soccer/football’s space requirement), or 0.15 or so per participant (including the 8 guys sitting on the bench).
Soccer and football fields are somewhat under 2 acres for their 22 active players, or about 0.8 acres per player.
High level cricket takes up about 4 acres for it 12 active players, more than twice soccer and about 50% more than baseball. Australian Rules football is played on huge cricket grounds, but puts 36 players on the field at once, following the usual trend that inflated balls don’t go as far or are as dangerous as hardballs struck with clubs and thus can be played at a higher density.
Baseball has caught on in some crowded countries like Japan and South Korea and cricket is played in India, but you can see the advantage soccer has in not requiring as much open space per athlete as ball and stick games. Moreover, soccer can be played adequately on shorter fields, while baseball (a.k.a., hardball) has to downgrade to softball to be safe on a smaller field.
In contrast, 18-hole golf courses used to take up about 150 acres but have since expanded, for reasons of safety, fun, environmental protection, and aesthetics to about 200 acres (81 hectares). The immense Augusta National Golf Club, host of The Masters, occupies 365 acres. A fully loaded par 72 course can accommodate two foursomes per hole, or 36 foursomes simultaneously or 144 players. So, while baseball takes up about a quarter of an acre for each of the 10 active players and cricket about 0.35 acres for each of the 12 active players, golf takes up an acre or more per player.
Moreover, golfers prefer playing under less crowded conditions, which isn’t as true in other sports. If you get invited to play baseball at Fenway Park, you wouldn’t especially brag if there were only five players on each side. But golf on an uncrowded course is faster, less hurry-up and wait, and more indulgently magnificent. My guess is that a busy weekend day at Augusta National, where Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are members, sees maybe one foursome every two holes, or 36 players over the 365 acres, or one player for every 10 acres.
The popularity of golf in America has long been linked to automobiles making for easy access to golf courses. Thus the game boomed in the 1920s, the 1960s as suburban courses became freeway close, and the 1980s-1990s.
Recent years, however, have mostly been a golden age for guys with private jets, as spectacular courses pop up in remote locations like the Nebraska sand hills, the coast of southern Oregon, Nova Scotia, and Tasmania.
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Good luck on that banning golf in China thing. A Chinese friend of mine is a golf fanatic, and he is a fairly typical representative of the fashionable young, upwardly mobile Chinese of today.
The problem is, of course, the corruption over land deals. If the party tries to spin it as fighting a decadent sport they’ll just make golf all the more attractive to young people. But what else can they do when their own officials are the ones taking bribes from builders? It’s easier for them to blame it on golf itself, but also transparent and futile.
Far south Patagonia needs a spectacular (your words) golf course or two I can fly my Lear jet to. I would alternate eating the local king crab with golfing. How are the native women down there?
http://foodsfromchile.org/ingredients/patagonian-king-crab
There is a course in the southernmost city in the world Punta Arenas
http://www.golftoday.co.uk/clubhouse/coursedir/world/chile/sur/magallanes.html
Given population density is surprising that South Korea has become a women’s golf power. In Seoul even the rich live in apartment buildings, obviously in large apartments that confusingly are called villa. I wouldn’t pay 3 million dollars to stay in something that looks like a prison, but korean architecture tends to block views from outside, sometimes with giant brick walls.
This is how the apartment building containing the villa of a kpop star looks:
The problem is, of course, the corruption over land deals. If the party tries to spin it as fighting a decadent sport they'll just make golf all the more attractive to young people. But what else can they do when their own officials are the ones taking bribes from builders? It's easier for them to blame it on golf itself, but also transparent and futile.Replies: @5371
Plenty of things in history have been banned despite rich people liking them, unthinkable as it is in modern America.
The royal forests of medieval England were essentially legal entities used by the crown as financial instruments and did not usually coincide with actual recreation grounds.
Of course, the penalty for poaching a deer from a royal park was, customarily, death.
Rather puts being ‘black-balled’ from the country club in context.
You gotta remember: all details in popular history are best assumed to be crap until evidence emerges to the contrary.Replies: @anon
This is how the apartment building containing the villa of a kpop star looks:
https://sunflowerbunss.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/20110221_top_house_1.jpgReplies: @Steve Sailer, @hodag
It looks like a power station. There’s a building in the South Loop of Chicago that was erected about 1990 as a neighborhood air conditioning plant — it ships cooled air to nearby skyscrapers. It looks more welcoming than the Korean luxury apartment building.
The trouble with a golf course is that it takes exclusive use of the land. “Forests” were defined by the relevant magnate (King, Bishop, Abbott or Earl) having the exclusive right to hunt deer, while other activities continued on arable land, pasture, woodland, heath, moorland or fen.
Of course, it was bloody annoying if the sodding deer were grazing your pasture, or underwood, or crops, and you weren’t allowed to kill the bloody things. And if you did kill one then (contra the folk history of the “Norman Yoke” …) you had to pay a fine. If you got caught. And if convicted.
So the answer to making golf courses more palatable is to make them non-exclusionary. But how? Floodlit archery competitions at night would have a quasi-medieval appeal. What else?
Of course, the trend toward cremation pretty much reigns this in. (You can scatter someones ashes anywhere.) But it was a good thought in its day.Replies: @Mr. Blank
Rather puts being 'black-balled' from the country club in context.Replies: @dearieme
“the penalty for poaching a deer from a royal park was, customarily, death”: “customarily”, my left foot. Royal forests in England (assuming that’s what you meant): name somebody put to death for poaching deer. Or having a limb lopped off. Just one name will do. You’ll become famous because historians have failed to find a single case. Not one.
You gotta remember: all details in popular history are best assumed to be crap until evidence emerges to the contrary.
Steve apparently there’s a golf course in Kansas that is so exclusive that only Bill Gates and Warren Buffett have WALKED it….
That’s a joke I’ve been waiting to make for 10 years. Thanks for the opportunity.
When our Black, Immigrant, Gay, and Female overlords finally take over (completely) their banning of golf might be the one thing I agree with. Boring game for mostly boring people (and not just because they’re white). Sailer easily excluded of the borning of course but my point remains. I may hate their politics but I’d rather hang with the hippies mountain biking, rock climing, hell even hackysacking any day.
http://foodsfromchile.org/ingredients/patagonian-king-crabReplies: @CK
http://www.golftoday.co.uk/clubhouse/coursedir/world/chile/sur/index.html
There is a course in the southernmost city in the world Punta Arenas
http://www.golftoday.co.uk/clubhouse/coursedir/world/chile/sur/magallanes.html
I was briefly in China (PRC) and was struck by a massive phenomenon, sustained across generations, which receives little attention here: the Middle Kingdom adores badminton. I tend to have to explain what badminton is in young American company. I felt like I was seeing a badminton shop — a badminton shop, not a sporting goods emporium with a healthy badminton section — on every street corner. All of the people I was with played, had their own equipment, and during a bizarre “phys ed” period in a kind of one-week university life sampler, our activity was badminton.
Steve’s logic of the miniature golf game is probably exactly what the Chinese leadership was thinking in declaring their charges to be badminton enthusiasts. I don’t think I ever practiced with a tennis ball in the back yard without hearing an uncomfortable reverberation from a window: that cannot happen with [badminton ball equivalent censored]. The racquets are downright flimsy compared to a tennis racquet or a baseball bat, so out-game applications (like braining your schoolmate) are pointless. Badminton equipment is cheap, easy to store and light (compare hockey). The space needed for badminton would probably stand out in a chart correlating sports and spaces as eminently reasonable (we can picture this being the origin, but not necessarily: enough leadership got overseas in their youth, and there were enough Europeans in China), and you can more or less play anywhere.
Badminton as a sport stands out for its safety and economy. Which raises the question of what would’ve been decided by the fearless leaders if “Magic the Gathering” had been an option …
The middle-ages were truly an oppressive, backwards time.
The idea that the government could set aside large swaths of wilderness and forbid it’s subjects from hunting there is completely an alien concept to free peoples such as us moderns.
Steve, you really should write that comprehensive book on golf. It would be a natural seller.
Castro, of course, promoted baseball, which itself requires a fair amount of land.
I don’t know if this factored into Castro’s thinking, but compared to a sport like soccer baseball imparts some valuable martial skills. In both world wars, the skill of Americans at throwing grenades was noted by our enemies with dismay. The GI who knew how to throw a baseball was able to throw a grenade ten meters farther than those who didn’t. (Sport, Militarism and the Great War: Martial Manliness and Armageddon, p. 38)
A remarkable defeat America suffered during the Philippine War was the Balangiga Massacre. American troops were eating breakfast at the isolated Balangiga outpost, their weapons stowed, when they were surprised by a well-planned attack by Filipinos. The Filipinos were armed with bolo knives and the Americans had to defend themselves with whatever was at hand. Forty-five enlisted men and three officers were killed. Of the 26 men who survived the attack, several were on the company baseball team, including privates Walls, DeGraffenreid, and Allen, whose spirited defense was described in The Ordeal of Samar by Joseph Schott:
Remote outpost with everyone's weapons stowed? Sounds like gross incompetence by the officers which is the key ingredient to most every military disaster.
The leadership in this case sounds positively Churchillian.
"American troops were eating breakfast at the isolated Balangiga outpost, their weapons stowed, when they were surprised by a well-planned attack by Filipinos."
2 / 22 = .090909
?
4840 square yards is an acre so .8 of it is 3872 and divided by 115 yards which is a typical length of an association football field gives 33 yards width for every player unless there are only two players in which case you got the 1.78 acres a pitch take up correct.
There are 13 active players on a cricket field as there is a non-striking batsman at the other end of the wicket.
The 36 players on an Australian Rules team would occupy 445 square metres each which when used as a Cricket oval is 1232 square meters per player or between .1 and .3 of a FIFA sanctioned pitch.
So what are the chances that when Rolling Stone received something incredible they went and looked into why it was unbelievable?
I don’t see it. Much like the turn of the century Japanese, the Chinese elites seem to be enamored with conspicuous western style consumption. What’s more conspicuous than announcing to your friends and associates that you are a member of the XYZ Country Club with a Nicklaus designed course.
Crooked real estate deals seem to be SOP.
Chinese no likey their grandfather not allowed into golf club.
I forget which TED talker mentioned (see YouTube) that the Chinese government’s legitimacy comes from its competency and ability to give the Chinese people what they want. It dovetails nicely with James Kurth’s observation at the naval war college (see also, YouTube) that the Chinese leadership have knowledge of political insurrection equivalent to a PhD in that area.
I am also reminded of the Confucians confronting the eunuchs over various costs as they put too high a burden on the farmers.
It would be a very interesting turn of history if the Communist leadership turned itself into a class of Confucianists through trial and error with ruling.
The idea that the government could set aside large swaths of wilderness and forbid it's subjects from hunting there is completely an alien concept to free peoples such as us moderns.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Bob
Tongue in cheek of course. After all, our own US government has set aside huge swaths of land forbidden to development (for living on, etc).
Steve, you really should write that comprehensive book on golf. It would be a natural seller.
You gotta remember: all details in popular history are best assumed to be crap until evidence emerges to the contrary.Replies: @anon
Even though it’s 20th century fiction about the early 19th century, I think it’s still relevant that Patrick O’Brian’s Aubrey/Maturin novels mention poachers who were jailed and then pressed into Royal Navy service from jail during the Napoleonic wars.
I have a feeling that the Robin Hood tales mention death and imprisonment as punishemnts for poaching, but I’m not as sure about that.
The 19th century poacher probably had nothing to do with medieval deer and mighty magnates: I imagine he's stealing the squire's pheasants.
I am also reminded of the Confucians confronting the eunuchs over various costs as they put too high a burden on the farmers.
It would be a very interesting turn of history if the Communist leadership turned itself into a class of Confucianists through trial and error with ruling.Replies: @anon
“the Chinese government’s legitimacy comes from its competency and ability to give the Chinese people what they want. “
In other words China is more democratic than the West has been in generations.
While in China last year I noticed that the prefix “St.” was used to give certain products more Western flair. I remember seeing an ad for a beverage called “St. Soda.”
There was also some golf facility (an equipment shop, or maybe a driving range or something) called “St. Golf.” I’m sure there’s some Amen Corner joke to be made here.
Fitting article considering the European Tour (2nd best pro golf tour in world behind PGA) hosted a tournament in China this weekend.
I was listening to a podcast with Dan Washburn talking about golf and China, and despite his knowledge of the situation (having lived there and written a book about the topic) he admitted having little idea about what the future held. China’s a mystery wrapped in an enigma according to my ken.
This is how the apartment building containing the villa of a kpop star looks:
https://sunflowerbunss.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/20110221_top_house_1.jpgReplies: @Steve Sailer, @hodag
Isn’t Seoul in artillary range of the Norks? Good idea not to have too much glass.
While it’s more often played indoors, basketball is quite conservative in its space requirements. Ten players in just 4,700 square feet.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60801.0.html
A thread about this. Some courses are more equal than others.
I don't know if this factored into Castro's thinking, but compared to a sport like soccer baseball imparts some valuable martial skills. In both world wars, the skill of Americans at throwing grenades was noted by our enemies with dismay. The GI who knew how to throw a baseball was able to throw a grenade ten meters farther than those who didn't. (Sport, Militarism and the Great War: Martial Manliness and Armageddon, p. 38)
A remarkable defeat America suffered during the Philippine War was the Balangiga Massacre. American troops were eating breakfast at the isolated Balangiga outpost, their weapons stowed, when they were surprised by a well-planned attack by Filipinos. The Filipinos were armed with bolo knives and the Americans had to defend themselves with whatever was at hand. Forty-five enlisted men and three officers were killed. Of the 26 men who survived the attack, several were on the company baseball team, including privates Walls, DeGraffenreid, and Allen, whose spirited defense was described in The Ordeal of Samar by Joseph Schott:Replies: @AnotherDad, @zippy
Ah, the Philippine War, a wonderful bit of American history brought to us by those internationalist progressives selling out our terrific republican tradition.
Switzerland and New Zealand can afford splendid isolation. Nations like Australia or America cannot. Geography, population, nearby rivals, sea coasts (the sea is a highway the cheapest there is) all matter more than high ideals when it comes to being dominated or ruled by neighbors. The politics of say, Serbia will always be different than those of say, Norway for that reason.
Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have not invaded the world but sure as heck invited it. Nations are either strong or weak, searching for morality in national policy is a fool's game.Replies: @AnotherDad
“…compared to a sport like soccer baseball imparts some valuable martial skills.”
I know the origins of baseball are murky, but baseball just obviously arises from sword, quarterstaff, and ‘slingman’ (maybe spear throwing) practice.
It the sort of game young boys instinctively invent, probably due to the length of time weapons of this nature have been associated with humans (a la that research about human (male) shoulders and upper body having evolved to throw).
This is why I just can’t get on board with monarchism like many of those Dark Enlightenment types. See here:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/the-other-emancipation-proclamation/?_r=1
Of course, it was bloody annoying if the sodding deer were grazing your pasture, or underwood, or crops, and you weren't allowed to kill the bloody things. And if you did kill one then (contra the folk history of the “Norman Yoke” …) you had to pay a fine. If you got caught. And if convicted.
So the answer to making golf courses more palatable is to make them non-exclusionary. But how? Floodlit archery competitions at night would have a quasi-medieval appeal. What else?Replies: @AnotherDad
I’ve long argued that cemeteries are a big waste of space and should be combined with golf courses. Folks would probably pay good money to be parked in a choice spot on their favorite course. And with today’s technology you could have virtual memorials embedded in the ground accessible by cell phone. Heck, soon pop-up holographic memorials via cell phone.
Of course, the trend toward cremation pretty much reigns this in. (You can scatter someones ashes anywhere.) But it was a good thought in its day.
The Philippine War was a consequence of America having a Pacific Coast and being a Pacific Nation depending on trade with China and later Japan. SOMEONE was going to dominate the Pacific, and Americans like McKinley were determined that it would be America, not the Germans, nor the French, nor the British, nor the Japanese.
Switzerland and New Zealand can afford splendid isolation. Nations like Australia or America cannot. Geography, population, nearby rivals, sea coasts (the sea is a highway the cheapest there is) all matter more than high ideals when it comes to being dominated or ruled by neighbors. The politics of say, Serbia will always be different than those of say, Norway for that reason.
Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have not invaded the world but sure as heck invited it. Nations are either strong or weak, searching for morality in national policy is a fool’s game.
But in any case, what was required for that was a naval base, not a colony. As we'd just helped the Filipinos boot out the Spanish, getting a base was a layup.
In fact, this was a wasted opportunity to show that we were fundamentally an anti-imperial power. If we were willing to oust the Spanish but *not* gobble up the Philippines that would have been a very positive signal to all these other colonized nations--as well as to China and Japan. Furthermore by establishing lack of interest in colonies it would have made it very easy to secure bases--naval rights--all over the place because we'd be trusted not to be agitating for colonial control.
And ... when the big "who owns this lake" war came ... we lost the Philippine base immediately and yet won the war anyway.
Sorry Whiskey the Philippine War--besides being ugly, brutal and immoral--was both unnecessary and a debacle--actually a disaster. It was a gigantic own goal by the US, with ripples that echo down to this day.
Semi-off topic.
The USGA has taken a flyer and has the US Open up here this year at Chambers Bay which is a fairly new (2007) public links style course on the shores of the Sound south of Tacoma, formerly a quarry (and dirt biker play pen) that Pierce county bought and developed.
The flyer is that “beautiful Seattle summers” doesn’t really mean June, July, August. The reasonably reliable weather really starts after July 4th. (There’s sort of joke here about abysmal July 4th weekends and summer not starting till the fireworks go off.) We’ve had the PGA before–at Sahalee a few miles from here–but that’s in August which is the appropriate time to visit western Washington for reliable golf.
We’ve had a *really* mild winter. Much warmer and drier than usual. Little snow in the mountains–terrible ski season. And the weather’s absolutely terrific–another amazing day out there today. But i’ve seen plenty of June weeks–cold, rainy, breezy that are absolutely miserable. Where you’re just thinking “when the hell is the @#$()&* summer gonna start.” If they draw such a week, it could be not just “delay” but basically unplayable to any sort of tournament standard.
“Recent years, however, have mostly been a golden age for guys with private jets, as spectacular courses pop up in remote locations like the Nebraska sand hills, the coast of southern Oregon, Nova Scotia, and Tasmania.”
Golf is a scourge. I am personally in favor of letting people do whatever they want, within reason, even if it is taking leisurely walks for distances of <10m and rides on electric scooters for anything longer than that and calling it a sport. What I can't stand, though, is that middle aged fatsos insist on despoiling pristine, unspoiled natural habitat with these cancerous blemishes on the landscape. For god's sake, if your idea of being "active" is to putter around in grandma mobiles, at least have the decency to stay out of the way of hikers and outdoorsmen who are willing to actually exert themselves and enjoy the few remaining areas untouched by human activity. Say what you want about other sports, but at least they don’t go out of their way to seek out and destroy precisely those chunks of land that most deserve to not have to suffer their presence.
...
Say what you want about other sports, but at least they don’t go out of their way to seek out and destroy precisely those chunks of land that most deserve to not have to suffer their presence. Felix, I'm an avid hiker--though me knees whine so much coming back down i'm not getting out so much anymore--and haven't shot a round of golf in twenty years. But ... seriously? What sort of golf course development are you talking about?The Seattle metro area is a growing area, there's three courses that have been developed since i moved here that i have some knowledge of.--> Willows Run
Across the Sammamish valley from me, built in the 90s--i used to have a great view of it from my back deck, until they put these damn houses in behind me. South of it is a mega-church. North a sod farm. West across Willows a bunch of office parks. Absent it being made into golf course it would like be an office park or commercial strip. I was walking there this evening ... a very pretty oasis. And way, way, way more pleasant and better for wildlife (inc. migrating fowl) than say the big hunk of land that's a soccer park across the Sammamish. Essentially the golfers are paying to keep this spot of land as pretty urban parkland.--> Plateau Club
On the Sammamish Plateau a couple miles SE from Sahalee. Went in in the 90s--a few friends from work bought memberships. Three high schools within a mile on the main road to the West; surrounded by houses to the north. This club you could at least say was hacked out of "pristine" habitat--basically typical NW lowland Douglas fir 2nd or 3rd growth forest. If golf didn't exist, there would be another few hundred houses plunked back there instead. --> Chambers Bay
As i mentioned, it was an old gravel quarry bought by Pierce County and developed into a park\public course. Otherwise it would still be a quarry or redeveloped for waterfront\waterview homes.About the worst case you can make about these golf courses, is that in their absence the land would have been put to some other commercial, residential or kept in some agricultural use, so that the net effect pushes sprawl out a tiny bit. But that's it. Golf courses aren't generally sucking up particularly gorgeous real estate that would be national\state parks. They don't look like golf courses before they are built. They are exceptionally pretty parkland because the designers craft them that way. Otherwise they'd mostly be residential\commercial sprawl.
~~~~If you hate sprawl, the enemy is not golf courses it is ... c'mon now ... starts with "i" and ends with "gration".That's right. Doing a quickie back of the envelope--generously tag courses for a monster 320 acres; allow fairly dense suburban development 4000/sq mi. That puts each golf course at a generous 2000 person residential replacement capacity. One month's *legal* immigration would be equivalent to sucking up land for 50 brand new golf courses. More realistic figures including immigrants being mostly young singles setting up separate or new married households and then having more kids ... would give you even more golf course equivalents.And yes, i'm aware many immigrants--especially illegals will pack tighter. However, their effect is to push white people *out* into exurban sprawl--for "good schools" and "communities that share their values" ... and just generally the desire to live in America!If you're worried about pristine habitat--that's you're enemy. All golf courses do is save odd little patches as manicured parkland ... as our population soars up 300, 400, 500 million and beyond.Replies: @ABN
I had no idea cricket fields were bigger than baseball fields. They look much smaller on TV.
I don't know if this factored into Castro's thinking, but compared to a sport like soccer baseball imparts some valuable martial skills. In both world wars, the skill of Americans at throwing grenades was noted by our enemies with dismay. The GI who knew how to throw a baseball was able to throw a grenade ten meters farther than those who didn't. (Sport, Militarism and the Great War: Martial Manliness and Armageddon, p. 38)
A remarkable defeat America suffered during the Philippine War was the Balangiga Massacre. American troops were eating breakfast at the isolated Balangiga outpost, their weapons stowed, when they were surprised by a well-planned attack by Filipinos. The Filipinos were armed with bolo knives and the Americans had to defend themselves with whatever was at hand. Forty-five enlisted men and three officers were killed. Of the 26 men who survived the attack, several were on the company baseball team, including privates Walls, DeGraffenreid, and Allen, whose spirited defense was described in The Ordeal of Samar by Joseph Schott:Replies: @AnotherDad, @zippy
Sounds like the officers failed to establish a perimeter or scout enemy movements.
Remote outpost with everyone’s weapons stowed? Sounds like gross incompetence by the officers which is the key ingredient to most every military disaster.
The leadership in this case sounds positively Churchillian.
“American troops were eating breakfast at the isolated Balangiga outpost, their weapons stowed, when they were surprised by a well-planned attack by Filipinos.”
The idea that the government could set aside large swaths of wilderness and forbid it's subjects from hunting there is completely an alien concept to free peoples such as us moderns.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Bob
You mean like Nevada …
AnotherDad: Chambers Bay was an …interesting…choice by the USGA. They have their rota, Oakmont is 2016, Shinnicock in 2018. But they love west coast opens…prime time in the east. But not enough courses out there. Olympic was nice, Riviera won’t have it…LACC will have the Walker Cup in 2019? Bandon is too remote.
Erin Hills in 2017 is another new course and an attempt to get a midwest Open. They are locked out of Chicago, Kohler is with the PGA. The potential Open courses in Chicago are Medinah (not interested since the Ryder Cup), Olympia Fields (too far south), Chicago Highlands is interested but no clubhouse, and the USGAs white whale is Butler National. Butler could host the Open tomorrow, if they cut the rough, moved the tees up and slowed down the greens. Surrounded by parking. Acres of room for corporate tents. But all male.
Erin Hills in 2017 is another new course and an attempt to get a midwest Open. They are locked out of Chicago, Kohler is with the PGA. The potential Open courses in Chicago are Medinah (not interested since the Ryder Cup), Olympia Fields (too far south), Chicago Highlands is interested but no clubhouse, and the USGAs white whale is Butler National. Butler could host the Open tomorrow, if they cut the rough, moved the tees up and slowed down the greens. Surrounded by parking. Acres of room for corporate tents. But all male.Replies: @Steve Sailer
LACC will host the 2023 US Open.
Another advantage of California US Opens in June is no thunderstorm delays.
I have never set foot in California but LACC North looks great after the renovation. Who did it?Replies: @Steve Sailer
Cricket has 11 players per side so that 11 players field while two players bat. Thus 13 active players!
How long is LACC? Are they just playing the North or a composite like at Royal Melbourne?
I have never set foot in California but LACC North looks great after the renovation. Who did it?
I have never set foot in California but LACC North looks great after the renovation. Who did it?Replies: @Steve Sailer
Los Angeles CC was restored by the Rustic Canyon crew: Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner and Geoff Shackelford. They’ve stretched it to at least 7,200 yards. The Open will be played solely on the North Course on the north side of Wilshire Blvd., with the easier, flatter South Course used for corporate hospitality tents and the like.
It’s the U.S. Open’s dream: to get back to L.A. for the first time since Hogan at Riviera in 1948 on a great Golden Age mystery course that hasn’t been on television in forever. No thunderstorms. The most urban location in the country for a great course.
On the other hand, there are reasons LACC has been so obsessed with maintaining a low profile for so long.
Will LACC redo south in the same way?
Ok, but most of the “activity” of a lot of “hikers and outdoorsman” consists of shopping for expensive gear at REI and going on slow walks on trails once in a while.
Wall St tinkerer and enzophile, Julian Robertson, has built two cliff top golf aeries on NZ’s North Island, trickle down work keeping many local families fed-my own included.
I’m no expert on golf course architecture, but I get the impression that the developments introduced a fusion of US east coast and NZ colonial architecture, since copied much on the local scene.
http://www.capekidnappers.com/
http://www.kauricliffs.com/luxury-travel-nz
Residents of a Southern Oregon community who say herbicide spraying made them … It also protects against liability from chemical trespass unless the … “The law basically grants an immunity to people who spray pesticides …
I had a garden wiped out. Neighbors on relief getting food stamps. They’re killing everything with funding from the state. China has disruptive golf cart cars. We have Detroit welfare cases and dying golf courses.
Which is the way it should be. If every one of the world’s 7bn+ people went on extended hikes on the regular, than those pristine areas wouldn’t be so pristine now would they? The whole allure of going the extra mile, or hundred, in order to reach the less visited parts is that they are in fact less visited. And don’t have golf courses.
It might be a good thing to blame all the world’s ills of today on the Normans and be done with it. Since it’s probably been 500 years since anyone was full-blooded Norman, just say “Why, yes those Evil Old Dead Western White Men were positively hideous, evil incarnate. Let me tell you some stories about the Norman Yoke!” Why, English is a result of the Norman Yoke, and look how wonderful the world would be without it. Anyone can see that it is all the Norman’s fault. Since it is clear they have all the Original Sin, we can dispense with all this victimology and all just revel in our victim-ness and helplessness.
See? We are all Victims Now.
Medinah used the opportunity of the Ryder Cup to redo their #1 (Doak). Many parts were actually asphalted over. #1 today is awesome, and better than 3 if you ask me ( 3’s best feature is length, ugh.)
Will LACC redo south in the same way?
Of course, the trend toward cremation pretty much reigns this in. (You can scatter someones ashes anywhere.) But it was a good thought in its day.Replies: @Mr. Blank
Yeah, I’ve never really understood the idea of cemeteries. I’d much rather be laid to rest under land where people are actively working and having fun.
See? We are all Victims Now.Replies: @Steve Sailer
Mitchell Heisman argued that a lot of the English liberal tradition is complaining about the Norman Yoke.
“…a lot of the English liberal tradition is complaining about the Norman Yoke.”
“…The culturally freighted term of a “Norman yoke” first appears in an apocryphal work published in 1642 during the English Revolution, under the title The Mirror of Justices…”.
It looks like that proto-Communist of the 1600s (as I sort of understand it, perhaps wrongly), Gerrard Winstanley, (didn’t Marx study him in the British Library/Museum?) used the term soon thereafter; even under the anti-King Protectorate (dictatorship) of Cromwell, The Man was still holding ’em down, one set devils replacing another… maybe he was right, but in any case the phrase just rolls off the tongue and sounds good, makes for rousing imagery:
“…while you pretend to throw down that Norman yoke… and have promised to make the groaning people of England a Free People; yet you still lift up that Norman yoke, and slavish Tyranny, and holds the People as much in bondage, as the Bastard Conquerour himself, and his Councel of War.”
You can just never get Left enough for True Believers.
A blast from the past, courtesy of WorldSocialism.org:
“Winstanley – A Man Before His Time”, The Socialist Party of Great Britain, No. 770, Oct 1968:
Switzerland and New Zealand can afford splendid isolation. Nations like Australia or America cannot. Geography, population, nearby rivals, sea coasts (the sea is a highway the cheapest there is) all matter more than high ideals when it comes to being dominated or ruled by neighbors. The politics of say, Serbia will always be different than those of say, Norway for that reason.
Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have not invaded the world but sure as heck invited it. Nations are either strong or weak, searching for morality in national policy is a fool's game.Replies: @AnotherDad
First off there’s no necessity for anyone to *dominate*, though there’s a tendency in that regard.
But in any case, what was required for that was a naval base, not a colony. As we’d just helped the Filipinos boot out the Spanish, getting a base was a layup.
In fact, this was a wasted opportunity to show that we were fundamentally an anti-imperial power. If we were willing to oust the Spanish but *not* gobble up the Philippines that would have been a very positive signal to all these other colonized nations–as well as to China and Japan. Furthermore by establishing lack of interest in colonies it would have made it very easy to secure bases–naval rights–all over the place because we’d be trusted not to be agitating for colonial control.
And … when the big “who owns this lake” war came … we lost the Philippine base immediately and yet won the war anyway.
Sorry Whiskey the Philippine War–besides being ugly, brutal and immoral–was both unnecessary and a debacle–actually a disaster. It was a gigantic own goal by the US, with ripples that echo down to this day.
What I can’t stand, though, is that middle aged fatsos insist on despoiling pristine, unspoiled natural habitat with these cancerous blemishes on the landscape.
…
Say what you want about other sports, but at least they don’t go out of their way to seek out and destroy precisely those chunks of land that most deserve to not have to suffer their presence.
Felix, I’m an avid hiker–though me knees whine so much coming back down i’m not getting out so much anymore–and haven’t shot a round of golf in twenty years.
But … seriously? What sort of golf course development are you talking about?
The Seattle metro area is a growing area, there’s three courses that have been developed since i moved here that i have some knowledge of.
–> Willows Run
Across the Sammamish valley from me, built in the 90s–i used to have a great view of it from my back deck, until they put these damn houses in behind me. South of it is a mega-church. North a sod farm. West across Willows a bunch of office parks. Absent it being made into golf course it would like be an office park or commercial strip. I was walking there this evening … a very pretty oasis. And way, way, way more pleasant and better for wildlife (inc. migrating fowl) than say the big hunk of land that’s a soccer park across the Sammamish. Essentially the golfers are paying to keep this spot of land as pretty urban parkland.
–> Plateau Club
On the Sammamish Plateau a couple miles SE from Sahalee. Went in in the 90s–a few friends from work bought memberships. Three high schools within a mile on the main road to the West; surrounded by houses to the north. This club you could at least say was hacked out of “pristine” habitat–basically typical NW lowland Douglas fir 2nd or 3rd growth forest. If golf didn’t exist, there would be another few hundred houses plunked back there instead.
–> Chambers Bay
As i mentioned, it was an old gravel quarry bought by Pierce County and developed into a park\public course. Otherwise it would still be a quarry or redeveloped for waterfront\waterview homes.
About the worst case you can make about these golf courses, is that in their absence the land would have been put to some other commercial, residential or kept in some agricultural use, so that the net effect pushes sprawl out a tiny bit. But that’s it. Golf courses aren’t generally sucking up particularly gorgeous real estate that would be national\state parks. They don’t look like golf courses before they are built. They are exceptionally pretty parkland because the designers craft them that way. Otherwise they’d mostly be residential\commercial sprawl.
~~~~
If you hate sprawl, the enemy is not golf courses it is … c’mon now … starts with “i” and ends with “gration”.
That’s right. Doing a quickie back of the envelope–generously tag courses for a monster 320 acres; allow fairly dense suburban development 4000/sq mi. That puts each golf course at a generous 2000 person residential replacement capacity. One month’s *legal* immigration would be equivalent to sucking up land for 50 brand new golf courses. More realistic figures including immigrants being mostly young singles setting up separate or new married households and then having more kids … would give you even more golf course equivalents.
And yes, i’m aware many immigrants–especially illegals will pack tighter. However, their effect is to push white people *out* into exurban sprawl–for “good schools” and “communities that share their values” … and just generally the desire to live in America!
If you’re worried about pristine habitat–that’s you’re enemy. All golf courses do is save odd little patches as manicured parkland … as our population soars up 300, 400, 500 million and beyond.
“Sorry Whiskey the Philippine War–besides being ugly, brutal and immoral–was both unnecessary and a debacle–actually a disaster. It was a gigantic own goal by the US, with ripples that echo down to this day.”
Indeed it does, Google ‘Vallejo” + bankruptcy
I’m not sure about this, but it seems to me that a ball limiting shots to 1/2 would imply golf courses half, rather than 1/4 as big. Shots are additive, not multiplicative.
Shot ….Normal….’Flat Ball’
1…………200………..100
2…………200………..100
3………..200…………100
4………..200…………100
Total….800………….400, flat ball -> 1/2 total distance with normal ball.
Indeed it does, Google 'Vallejo" + bankruptcyReplies: @Steve Sailer
Vallejo was the role model for diversity in America way back in the 1960s: Google “Sly and the Family Stone” “Vallejo.”
I just realized (I was away for a few days) that my post is so ridiculously redundant! Whatever.
You have to go to Scotland to “feel” the game at some point in your life if you are a golfer. No posh hotels everywhere…very cold, at times, even in July. No cool bars and clubs; stoic but pleasant locals.
LACC and Riviera, Pebble Beach, Maidstone, well, Augusta are excellent, but nothing beats the courses in Scotland. And, I feel lucky in that I have lived, worked, and witnessed remote golf courses popping up in unlikely places. But, the aura of Scotland can not be recreated in China, other parts of Asia & the middle east, SA, or even the USA. The remoteness, austere natural beauty and unpredictability of the weather is what makes Scotland so exceptional and alluring. After a downpour, you can smell the soil and grass…and weirdly, it makes you think about a steak dinner and whiskey!
Shot ....Normal....'Flat Ball'
1............200...........100
2............200...........100
3...........200............100
4...........200............100
Total....800.............400, flat ball -> 1/2 total distance with normal ball.Replies: @Steve Sailer
But the holes could be half as wide because the ball would only go half as far astray.
Bandon Dunes isn’t that remote. There’s a paved road to it and everything.
Of course, those Dark Enlightenment types see themselves as the natural aristocracy, ready to resume business whence the true King is restored to his rightful throne.
“I have a feeling that the Robin Hood tales mention death and imprisonment as punishemnts for poaching”. Just name one person executed under the Norman Yoke for killing a deer in a Forest. No name, no believy.
The 19th century poacher probably had nothing to do with medieval deer and mighty magnates: I imagine he’s stealing the squire’s pheasants.
This attitude explains the extreme divergence in gun laws between the UK and the US. There, unlike here, toffs hunt and proles don’t.
George Orwell once noted how English Leftists were usually astonished to find out that Lenin was an enthusiastic shooter and hunter.
Steve's logic of the miniature golf game is probably exactly what the Chinese leadership was thinking in declaring their charges to be badminton enthusiasts. I don't think I ever practiced with a tennis ball in the back yard without hearing an uncomfortable reverberation from a window: that cannot happen with [badminton ball equivalent censored]. The racquets are downright flimsy compared to a tennis racquet or a baseball bat, so out-game applications (like braining your schoolmate) are pointless. Badminton equipment is cheap, easy to store and light (compare hockey). The space needed for badminton would probably stand out in a chart correlating sports and spaces as eminently reasonable (we can picture this being the origin, but not necessarily: enough leadership got overseas in their youth, and there were enough Europeans in China), and you can more or less play anywhere.
Badminton as a sport stands out for its safety and economy. Which raises the question of what would've been decided by the fearless leaders if "Magic the Gathering" had been an option ...Replies: @BurplesonAFB, @K.
And I’m sure badminton is considered bourgeois luxury by their parents who grew up with outdoor table tennis.
...
Say what you want about other sports, but at least they don’t go out of their way to seek out and destroy precisely those chunks of land that most deserve to not have to suffer their presence. Felix, I'm an avid hiker--though me knees whine so much coming back down i'm not getting out so much anymore--and haven't shot a round of golf in twenty years. But ... seriously? What sort of golf course development are you talking about?The Seattle metro area is a growing area, there's three courses that have been developed since i moved here that i have some knowledge of.--> Willows Run
Across the Sammamish valley from me, built in the 90s--i used to have a great view of it from my back deck, until they put these damn houses in behind me. South of it is a mega-church. North a sod farm. West across Willows a bunch of office parks. Absent it being made into golf course it would like be an office park or commercial strip. I was walking there this evening ... a very pretty oasis. And way, way, way more pleasant and better for wildlife (inc. migrating fowl) than say the big hunk of land that's a soccer park across the Sammamish. Essentially the golfers are paying to keep this spot of land as pretty urban parkland.--> Plateau Club
On the Sammamish Plateau a couple miles SE from Sahalee. Went in in the 90s--a few friends from work bought memberships. Three high schools within a mile on the main road to the West; surrounded by houses to the north. This club you could at least say was hacked out of "pristine" habitat--basically typical NW lowland Douglas fir 2nd or 3rd growth forest. If golf didn't exist, there would be another few hundred houses plunked back there instead. --> Chambers Bay
As i mentioned, it was an old gravel quarry bought by Pierce County and developed into a park\public course. Otherwise it would still be a quarry or redeveloped for waterfront\waterview homes.About the worst case you can make about these golf courses, is that in their absence the land would have been put to some other commercial, residential or kept in some agricultural use, so that the net effect pushes sprawl out a tiny bit. But that's it. Golf courses aren't generally sucking up particularly gorgeous real estate that would be national\state parks. They don't look like golf courses before they are built. They are exceptionally pretty parkland because the designers craft them that way. Otherwise they'd mostly be residential\commercial sprawl.
~~~~If you hate sprawl, the enemy is not golf courses it is ... c'mon now ... starts with "i" and ends with "gration".That's right. Doing a quickie back of the envelope--generously tag courses for a monster 320 acres; allow fairly dense suburban development 4000/sq mi. That puts each golf course at a generous 2000 person residential replacement capacity. One month's *legal* immigration would be equivalent to sucking up land for 50 brand new golf courses. More realistic figures including immigrants being mostly young singles setting up separate or new married households and then having more kids ... would give you even more golf course equivalents.And yes, i'm aware many immigrants--especially illegals will pack tighter. However, their effect is to push white people *out* into exurban sprawl--for "good schools" and "communities that share their values" ... and just generally the desire to live in America!If you're worried about pristine habitat--that's you're enemy. All golf courses do is save odd little patches as manicured parkland ... as our population soars up 300, 400, 500 million and beyond.Replies: @ABN
That’s a very good point. This is one of those (many, many) cases in which SWPL values are totally undermined by Diversity. If you want people to live more densely in mixed-use New Urban communities and use light rail or whatever, you need to make cities and towns un-vibrant.
I remember a more or less liberal friend of mine, who was working at a major consulting firm, describing his temporary quarters in Helsinki or Stockholm as being like an American public housing project but filled with educated white people. He was struck by the novelty of this situation.
I see that Math isn’t a competitive sport in these here parts.
“Soccer and football fields are somewhat under 2 acres for their 22 active players, or about 0.8 acres per player.”
Steve's logic of the miniature golf game is probably exactly what the Chinese leadership was thinking in declaring their charges to be badminton enthusiasts. I don't think I ever practiced with a tennis ball in the back yard without hearing an uncomfortable reverberation from a window: that cannot happen with [badminton ball equivalent censored]. The racquets are downright flimsy compared to a tennis racquet or a baseball bat, so out-game applications (like braining your schoolmate) are pointless. Badminton equipment is cheap, easy to store and light (compare hockey). The space needed for badminton would probably stand out in a chart correlating sports and spaces as eminently reasonable (we can picture this being the origin, but not necessarily: enough leadership got overseas in their youth, and there were enough Europeans in China), and you can more or less play anywhere.
Badminton as a sport stands out for its safety and economy. Which raises the question of what would've been decided by the fearless leaders if "Magic the Gathering" had been an option ...Replies: @BurplesonAFB, @K.
The Chinese have been kicking shuttlecocks around as if they were hackey-sacks since time immemorial; badminton with rackets, once they were introduced to it, probably seemed only natural.