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From the NY Times opinion page, a real doozy of How We Think Now:

The Myth of Testosterone
It is not the “male sex hormone,” nor is it the key to athletic performance. Why do we insist otherwise?

By Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young

Katrina Karkazis is a senior visiting fellow at the Global Health Justice Partnership at Yale University. Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard College. They are the authors of the forthcoming “Testosterone: An Unauthorized Biography.”

May 3, 2019

On Wednesday, the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled that female athletes with naturally elevated levels of testosterone could not compete as women unless they made efforts to reduce the hormone in their bodies.

The ruling came in a case brought by the middle-distance runner Caster Semenya against the International Association of Athletics Federations that challenged longstanding myths about the presumed masculinity of testosterone and its role in the body.

Semenya is a South African runner with undescended testicles who won the gold medal in the 2016 Olympics women’s 800 meter race. This is not a transgender person who went out of the way to make a mockery of women’s sports but simply a victim of a birth defect. On the other hand, Semenya is built like a Clemson cornerback so it’s hardly fair to force real women to compete with Semenya.

But it’s a symptom of the deconstructionist madness of our times as exemplified in this op-ed that Semenya was allowed to win a women’s gold medal.

Her loss demonstrates just how entrenched those myths have become.

For a century, talk about testosterone as the “male hormone” has woven folklore into science, so that supposedly objective claims seemingly validate cultural beliefs about the structure of masculinity and the “natural” relationship between women and men.

Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.

But because early hormone researchers were fixated on sexual anatomy and reproduction, they gave short shrift to testosterone’s myriad effects, treating it as both oddly narrow — that it is about things men have more of — and overwhelmingly powerful.

Of course, it’s one thing for myths to persist in the public imagination. But what has puzzled us in nearly a decade of research is how these ideas have gained so much traction among the organizations that regulate sports, when the evidence needed to support them is largely absent or contradictory.

And yada yada yada … Paging Jose Canseco: two lady professors need some info on how the world works.

 
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  1. Anonymous[299] • Disclaimer says:

    ‘Caster Semenya’

    Strange how life imitates art.

    ‘Caster’ of course implies castrate – from the Latin meaning ‘pure’ – in this case purity means removal of the ‘pollution ‘ creating male generative organs, hence those two celestial twins Castor and Pollux.
    (Pollux from the root of ‘pollution’ but strangely resembling a vulgar related Britishism).

    ‘Semenya’, shades of what the ‘castrated’ are unable to produce, and of course ‘testosterone’.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @slumber_j
    @Anonymous

    It's positively Nabokovian out there sometimes.

    I had a really unpleasant, brutish college classmate whose surname was Malolepsy. And come to think of it, a really hot girlfriend for a while named Woodhouse.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Anonymous
    @Anonymous

    ‘Caster’ of course implies castrate – from the Latin meaning ‘pure’ – in this case purity means removal of the ‘pollution ‘ creating male generative organs, hence those two celestial twins Castor and Pollux.
    (Pollux from the root of ‘pollution’ but strangely resembling a vulgar related Britishism).


    Similarly Sandra Bullock.

    , @bored identity
    @Anonymous

    To bored identity that sounds like a classic example of Custard's Last Stand.

    , @International Jew
    @Anonymous


    ‘Caster’ of course implies castrate – from the Latin meaning ‘pure’ – in this case purity means removal of the ‘pollution‘

     

    Where did you get that from? According to Wiktionary, "castrate" comes from the Latin word for "to cut". https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/castrate

    Replies: @JimS

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @Anonymous


    ‘Caster’ of course implies castrate – from the Latin meaning ‘pure’
     
    Seems a bit dubious to me. The Latin word for a gelding is sectarius, and the Latin words for cut usually have the sect or cis roots. The Spanish word for cut is cortar.

    Caster, as a name, is more likely to be associated with Roman place names like Doncaster, England, a military camp on the river Don, or Lancaster a camp on the river Lune. I believe the name Castile has similar associations, and, of course, castle.

    Caster sugar is a very finely ground sugar, presumably fine enough to be sprinkled using a sugar castor, a device use to cast sugar rather like casting seed on fertile ground, not that Semenya is likely to be doing that.

    Sugar castor.

    http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/121092690903-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

  2. So then why do ‘transitioning’ men take testosterone suppressants?

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Kent Nationalist

    Kent, try to stay with the narrative or they will call you some foul name.

  3. What happened to Sailer btw? He frequently wrote about athletes he suspected of using steroids yet you seem to know very little about one of isteve’s favorite topics.

  4. I think the myth of testosterone affecting ANYTHING has already been conclusively demolished by Cordela Fine in Testosterone Rex, and her book will become the ‘Mismeasure of Man’ de nos jours.

    Incidentally the link to the Caster Samenya story is long gone, but it can be found on Wayback.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160628092447/http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/semenya-has-no-womb-or-ovaries/story-e6frexni-1225771672245

    “World athletics is in crisis over the gender of Caster Semenya after tests revealed the South African world champion has no womb or ovaries.

    The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) is ready to disqualify Semenya from future events and advise her to have immediate surgery because her condition carries grave health risks. They have also not ruled out stripping Semenya of her 800m world championships gold medal.

    Tests conducted during the world athletics championships in Berlin last month, where Semenya’s gender became the subject of heated debate following her victory in the 800m, revealed evidence she is a hermaphrodite, someone with both male and female sexual characteristics.

    Semenya, 18, has three times the amount of testosterone that a “normal” female would have. According to a source closely involved with the Semenya examinations IAAF testing, which included various scans, has revealed she has internal testes – the male sexual organs which produce testosterone.”

    The story is a sad example of how journalists can’t tell the difference between “sex” and “gender” any more, or alternatively are too cowed to use the words correctly. Ms Semenya obviously ‘presents’ as female, for athletic purposes at any rate. Gender, unlike sex, is arguably a social construct.

    • Replies: @BB753
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Gender is solely a grammatical construct. If you want to say to say that a man looks like a woman, or looks ambiguous, there's a word for it: epicene. Look it up!
    Please leave gender alone! It belongs to linguistics.

    Replies: @anonymous, @YetAnotherAnon, @Mr. Anon

    , @Desiderius
    @YetAnotherAnon

    They are neither ignorant nor cowed.

    On the contrary they are feeling their oats and paid on that basis. This feels right for the ruling class because it’s in line with the Jaffe memo thinking in which they were educated (the thinking, not the memo proper).

    , @Daniel H
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Gender, unlike sex, is arguably a social construct.

    Please, stop with this nonsense. This blog is a clear thinking zone. Gender is sex, sex is gender. The meanings are identical. And what is with this rhetorical formulation "presents". So and so, presents s a woman. Nonsense. Nonsense.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    , @Alden
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Gender is a grammatical term in some languages. Sex is male and female.

    , @Grace Jones
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Words have gender.
    People have sex.
    It's as simple as that. But the elites have gotten away with polluting even the medical literature with that "gender" nonsense, where every single author and all of their readers damn well ought to know the difference.

  5. Aren’t these ladies a little late to the party? Cordelia Fine already wrote Testosterone Rex and scooped up all sorts of honors.

    • Agree: Gordo
    • LOL: Unladen Swallow
  6. So Yale and Barnard hire idiots to influence the young. The issue they discuss can be analyzed scientifically, has been, and the results are clear – testosterone levels influence athletic performance. Of course facts don’t matter to idiots.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @DCBillS

    Or liars.

  7. Decapeptyl is a simple way of reducing Testosterone, I cannot see why anyone would object to taking it.

  8. If testosterone is a myth, I guess the doctors and drug companies funding transmania will stop pushing hormone therapies?

    • Replies: @Wille
    @ex-banker


    If testosterone is a myth, I guess the doctors and drug companies funding transmania will stop pushing hormone therapies?
     
    Nah, the myth is that it's a masculine hormone.

    Now, the drug companies can push it to men, women, and in-betweens!

    Testosterone - Strong enough for a man, now ok for a woman.
  9. Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning.

    Only among the truly ignorant and mentally lazy. Like these two authors.

    It’s always wonderful to learn the myriad of important things we need poured to our simple vacant minds by our betters at the Carlos Slim Blog.

    • Replies: @TWS
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    So they should let men play on women's teams because test doesn't matter. Genders a construct. And all police firefighter and military tests should be returned to former standards. Because sex is mutable.

    If women just put in ten thousand hours playing with baseballs and toy trucks they'll be able to compete to the boys middle School standards.

    Don't forget, height is just practice at being tall. States should return to the former height standards for troopers.

    , @guest
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    It's instructive to listen to people who apparently know nothing about the vast majority of human understanding tell us how other people are suckers buying into myths. It's like some tone-deaf idiot who never studied music trying to guess why people like the wrong songs.

  10. …nor is it the key to athletic performance.

    I do hope that Rebecca (“Becky”) and “Rainstorm” Katrina realize they’re putting another nail in the coffin of women’s sports.

    As it is, colleges have to scrape the barrel to find enough cis-gendered females to fill out their Title IX teams. It’s going to get harder–much harder–when they have to compete with men.

    • Agree: 95Theses
    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @HammerJack

    They probably don’t care about destroying a women’s athletics. Female athletes are typically normal, conservative to apolitical women, even the lesbians. Female journalists are frumpy leftists and probably have bad memories of gym class.

    , @Neuday
    @HammerJack

    I think in their twisted minds they think they're paving the way for female NFL running backs.

    , @Forbes
    @HammerJack


    they’re putting another nail in the coffin of women’s sports.
     
    There's an agenda to advance--there are always "unintended" consequences. The greater good and all that. Progress, so we're told. You'll just have to adjust to the new reality being created by those smarter than us proles...

    colleges have to scrape the barrel to find enough cis-gendered females to fill out their Title IX teams.
     
    Not a bug. Title IX teams will be filled out with trans-women. Barrel-scraping problem solved.
  11. Was Sailer a Catholic or not?

  12. What escapes these researchers is that if it is unjust to exclude Semenya — and it certainly is wrong to insist that she take drugs to modify her natural biochemistry — then it is also wrong to exclude real men from the women’s races. The natural endpoint of their argument is to have no division between men’s and women’s sports. Oddly, though, few feminists seem to want that.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Tono Bungay

    Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.

    Indeed, the reductio ad absurdum is for there to be no division, for men and women to compete together. But is this actually absurd? The only reason for the existence of most women's sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    There are some events for which women may naturally be better suited, such that women might continue to come out at the top. Women's type gymnastics (particularly the balance beam -- ouch!) very-long-distance swimming, and the graceful figure skating that women do are examples.

    It might be a good idea to just have women compete against men in all sporting events. It might help re-educate them and the Western World that men and women are different.

    Replies: @prosa123, @Jonathan Mason, @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    , @guest
    @Tono Bungay

    It is not wrong to insist anything of the sort. Because she(?) can just go compete with men if she(?) doesn't want altered chemistry.

  13. I’m of the opinion ‘if you’re born with it, it’s fair’ – I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she’s a woman. Just like some folks are born 7′ tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It’s the trans-men who switch to women’s sports – through a choice, not having been born that way – that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 – 15 years, then she’ll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    • Replies: @kihowi
    @Just Saying


    ‘if you’re born with it, it’s fair’
     
    That's what it would be in men's sports. In men's sports you're actually engaged in finding the best in the world at something. If someone achieves that with the help of an advantageous birth defect, well that's just lucky.

    But women's sports is a highly artificial construct to make women feel good. Its point is to make them forget that they'd never stand a chance against a man by having them only compete against one another. The fact that female champions really feel like they've reached the top, instead of just the top 1000 of "people", proves how well it works.

    The only way to deal with an artificial construct like that is to keep it artificially fair. Allowing a man to compete compounds the phoniness to such a degree that we're better off getting rid of the whole thing and letting everybody compete against one another, effectively getting rid of wonen's sports altogether. At least it'll be honest.

    , @SFG
    @Just Saying

    Yeah, I can't really blame Semenya, she's just competing with the body God gave her. And if you've got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you're not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman...I don't know. She's got a Y chromosome and testes, it's just that her testosterone receptors don't work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I'd just say 'sort of'.

    Replies: @Ola, @Ola, @Desiderius, @stillCARealist, @anon, @res, @BB753, @TWS, @guest

    , @Federalist
    @Just Saying


    because I think she’s a woman.
     
     
    Why do you think that?
    , @JMcG
    @Just Saying

    That’s exactly why I’m all in favor. It elicits a constant stream of mockery. Burn it all down.

    , @Jack D
    @Just Saying

    The IT that Semenya was born with was Y chromosomes and testicles. That's a man, baby!

    Replies: @res

    , @Ola
    @Just Saying

    There are two classes in T&F: men and women. There are not a sub 7 feet class and 7+ feet class in basket, thus that kind of reasoning is irrelevant.

    , @Sideways
    @Just Saying

    Except it's not just her. At the 2016 800m podium, at least one of the other two medal winners was also intersex, and the third is suspected to be

    , @Franz Liszt von Raiding
    @Just Saying

    CASTER. IS. A. MAN. Totally unfair to have cousin IT competing against all natural female athletes who’ve trained their WHOLE LIVES just to have the rug pulled out from under them by PC thugs. He has undescended testicles. If he were truly female he wouldn't have balls ANYWHERE capiche? an abnormality doesn’t put you in the other sex category by default. Of course the TREASONOUS mainstream media tried to gaslight the room temp IQ public into not believing their LYING EYES.

    , @Autochthon
    @Just Saying

    Much easier to add a third category to competitions for freakish hermaphrodites like this one: "hermaphrodite." (Hey it's nicer than "It" or "Shemale!"

    The objective fact is these creatures, through no fault of their own, are indeed, neither female nor male. But, just as females must compete with females and males with males for there to be any modicum of sense to it all, so, then can hermaphroditc sorts compete amongst themselves.

    Of course, that solution is logical and fair, so it shall never be implemented by The Man.

    , @S. Anonyia
    @Just Saying

    Don’t allow either. Semenya is a man with no external male genitalia. XY. Allowing her to compete is what paves the way for trannies to jump in next.

    , @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Just Saying

    Except he's not a woman; he's a man with malformed genitals. Actual women should not have to compete with him, and he shouldn't have to alter his body chemistry. The fact that he has low androgen uptake in certain parts of his physiology is not the rest of the world's problem.

    Replies: @anon

    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @Just Saying


    I’m of the opinion ‘if you’re born with it, it’s fair’ – I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she’s a woman.
     
    "She" may be reminiscent of a woman, but is not one,

    Semenya has a Y-chromosome, and a penis (plus defective testicles). "She" is a man suffering from a birth defect.
    , @guest
    @Just Saying

    You are a crazy person.

    Let anyone compete in men's sports, i.e. real sports, okay. But the entire point of women's sport is that it's restricted to actual women. Because if they had to compete against men they wouldn't make the cut.

    The cut can't be your subjective appreciation of her supposed womanhood. Because then borderline cases with extra hormone powers would take over women's sports and we wouldn't have women's sports anymore.

    Not that I would care because aside from gymnastics and figure skating I never watch it. But other people do.

    Replies: @TWS

  14. And I see from Steve’s tweets that Ms Semenya has XY chromosomes. I hope the guy doesn’t get Watsoned for suggesting that all 3 of the women’s 2016 800m Olympic medallists were intersex.

    https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

    So

    XY chromosomes
    No womb or ovaries
    Undescended testes

    There’s an Austin Powers quote at the back of my mind.

  15. Anonymous[378] • Disclaimer says:
    • LOL: JimDandy
    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Anonymous


    Biological Essentialism
     
    What did she mean by this?

    Replies: @Jack D, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Alfa158
    @Anonymous

    She forgot to add “Polly wants a cracker”. Otherwise a flawless bit of parroting.

    Replies: @Forbes

    , @Jack D
    @Anonymous


    how hegemonic womanhood is operationalised and maintained
     
    Why just today I was discussing with my fellow white people how we need to operationalise hegemonic womanhood some more. I told them that we need to operationalise the hegemony and hegemonize the operationalization and then when we get done with that we need to maintain the operation of the hegemony some more.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @guest
    @Anonymous

    Blackness is incompatible with binary notions of gender, no homo.

    Replies: @Alice in Wonderland

    , @Forbes
    @Anonymous

    What happened to "race is a social construct"? I thought that was the retort that cut-off any further discussion.

    Instead, all these "How" questions...

    It's so confusing. The PC/SJW brigades change The Narrative so often, who can keep up...

    , @El Dato
    @Anonymous

    "I once got into a discussion with Nigerian bodybuilders and quickly learned how Blackness is incompatible with binary notions of gender"

  16. @YetAnotherAnon
    I think the myth of testosterone affecting ANYTHING has already been conclusively demolished by Cordela Fine in Testosterone Rex, and her book will become the 'Mismeasure of Man' de nos jours.

    Incidentally the link to the Caster Samenya story is long gone, but it can be found on Wayback.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160628092447/http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/semenya-has-no-womb-or-ovaries/story-e6frexni-1225771672245

    "World athletics is in crisis over the gender of Caster Semenya after tests revealed the South African world champion has no womb or ovaries.

    The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) is ready to disqualify Semenya from future events and advise her to have immediate surgery because her condition carries grave health risks. They have also not ruled out stripping Semenya of her 800m world championships gold medal.

    Tests conducted during the world athletics championships in Berlin last month, where Semenya's gender became the subject of heated debate following her victory in the 800m, revealed evidence she is a hermaphrodite, someone with both male and female sexual characteristics.

    Semenya, 18, has three times the amount of testosterone that a "normal'' female would have. According to a source closely involved with the Semenya examinations IAAF testing, which included various scans, has revealed she has internal testes - the male sexual organs which produce testosterone."
     
    The story is a sad example of how journalists can't tell the difference between "sex" and "gender" any more, or alternatively are too cowed to use the words correctly. Ms Semenya obviously 'presents' as female, for athletic purposes at any rate. Gender, unlike sex, is arguably a social construct.

    Replies: @BB753, @Desiderius, @Daniel H, @Alden, @Grace Jones

    Gender is solely a grammatical construct. If you want to say to say that a man looks like a woman, or looks ambiguous, there’s a word for it: epicene. Look it up!
    Please leave gender alone! It belongs to linguistics.

    • Agree: Liza, Joseph Doaks
    • Replies: @anonymous
    @BB753

    Thanks. I just read the definitions, and you are correct. The broader meanings of “gender” are listed as “informal.” (Complicating matters, I see that “epicene” also is used in linguistics.)

    And you’re not being merely pedantic. This is another example of the stripping and (mis)use of language to fuzz up clear thinking, helping goofball academics to get away with the subject article.

    , @YetAnotherAnon
    @BB753

    A grammatical construct IS a social construct! It wasn't evolution that made ships in English usage female, or a house masculine but a door feminine in German.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @BB753


    Gender is solely a grammatical construct.

    ......................................................................

    Please leave gender alone! It belongs to linguistics.
     
    Amen. The word is "sex". It is a biological category and it is real. It is the word people should use when discussing the sexes.

    The employ of "gender" by the PoMo deviancy-normalizing crowd is perhaps down to so many of them coming from the Modern Languages area.

    Replies: @Alden

  17. @Anonymous
    'Caster Semenya'

    Strange how life imitates art.

    'Caster' of course implies castrate - from the Latin meaning 'pure' - in this case purity means removal of the 'pollution ' creating male generative organs, hence those two celestial twins Castor and Pollux.
    (Pollux from the root of 'pollution' but strangely resembling a vulgar related Britishism).

    'Semenya', shades of what the 'castrated' are unable to produce, and of course 'testosterone'.

    Replies: @slumber_j, @Anonymous, @bored identity, @International Jew, @Jonathan Mason

    It’s positively Nabokovian out there sometimes.

    I had a really unpleasant, brutish college classmate whose surname was Malolepsy. And come to think of it, a really hot girlfriend for a while named Woodhouse.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @slumber_j


    named Woodhouse
     
    Did she have any aunts noteworthy in particular?
  18. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    ‘if you’re born with it, it’s fair’

    That’s what it would be in men’s sports. In men’s sports you’re actually engaged in finding the best in the world at something. If someone achieves that with the help of an advantageous birth defect, well that’s just lucky.

    But women’s sports is a highly artificial construct to make women feel good. Its point is to make them forget that they’d never stand a chance against a man by having them only compete against one another. The fact that female champions really feel like they’ve reached the top, instead of just the top 1000 of “people”, proves how well it works.

    The only way to deal with an artificial construct like that is to keep it artificially fair. Allowing a man to compete compounds the phoniness to such a degree that we’re better off getting rid of the whole thing and letting everybody compete against one another, effectively getting rid of wonen’s sports altogether. At least it’ll be honest.

    • Agree: Old Prude
  19. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @BB753
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Gender is solely a grammatical construct. If you want to say to say that a man looks like a woman, or looks ambiguous, there's a word for it: epicene. Look it up!
    Please leave gender alone! It belongs to linguistics.

    Replies: @anonymous, @YetAnotherAnon, @Mr. Anon

    Thanks. I just read the definitions, and you are correct. The broader meanings of “gender” are listed as “informal.” (Complicating matters, I see that “epicene” also is used in linguistics.)

    And you’re not being merely pedantic. This is another example of the stripping and (mis)use of language to fuzz up clear thinking, helping goofball academics to get away with the subject article.

  20. TBH women sports were a joke. Have you heard the one with Aussie female soccer team defeated by high school amateur males? Similarly, boxing midgets are extremely annoying. Perhaps they and the women should have their own categories at the Paralympics.

    • Replies: @guest
    @Anon

    I think 14 year-old male teams consistently beat adult female soccer teams.

  21. They are not really trying to prove anything, they are merely laying down the latest orthodoxy.

    Act like you believe it or you’re a Nazi.

  22. SFG says:
    @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    Yeah, I can’t really blame Semenya, she’s just competing with the body God gave her. And if you’ve got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you’re not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman…I don’t know. She’s got a Y chromosome and testes, it’s just that her testosterone receptors don’t work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I’d just say ‘sort of’.

    • Replies: @Ola
    @SFG

    Her testosterone receptors work just fine. Her testicles didn´t descend into the scrotum before birth, that´s all.

    She is XY, has testicles, working receptors, no womb. no ovaries. She is a man, who happened to be misidentified as a female at birth. Not her fault, but she should clearly be competing with men not women.

    There are two classes in T&F: men and women. There are not a sub 7 feet class and 7+ feet class in basket, thus that kind of reasoning is irrelevant.

    , @Ola
    @SFG

    Her testosterone receptors work just fine. Her testicles didn´t descend into the scrotum before birth, that´s all.

    She is XY, has testicles, working receptors, no womb. no ovaries. She is a man, who happened to be misidentified as a female at birth. Not her fault, but she should clearly be competing with men not women.

    , @Desiderius
    @SFG

    The reason there are women’s events in the first place rather than a free-for-all is that men enjoy certain biological advantages. If you enjoy those same advantages you should compete with the big boys.

    , @stillCARealist
    @SFG

    Why does this person (it) want to compete at the Olympic level? Well, it has likely been running and training all along as a woman, and it can plainly see that it has the ability to be faster and stronger than the other women. So that means victories and medals and accolades. If Semenya is actually a man, then he would have to compete against other men... who would likely kick his butt. No more medals and ribbons.

    Better to keep calling itself a woman and doing lots of winning.

    , @anon
    @SFG


    Yeah, I can’t really blame Semenya, she’s just competing with the body God gave her. And if you’ve got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you’re not going to step aside nicely.
     
    it's not about "drive" its about advantages

    plenty of lower level athletes have lots of drive and lots of heart but just don't have the ability

    give them some steroids and all of a sudden.....
    , @res
    @SFG


    Is she a woman…I don’t know. She’s got a Y chromosome and testes, it’s just that her testosterone receptors don’t work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I’d just say ‘sort of’.
     
    The thing that is ironic about this (in particular the things from the idiots Steve quotes) is that the reason she can present as female is due to her testosterone receptors not working. Thus showing the importance of testosterone to creating a fully functional man. But it does mean (in theory at least) that she should be relatively insensitive to testosterone, making those high levels less significant than they seem. I am not sure how accurate that theory is though. Partial insensitivity is possible--I don't know if differential insensitivity (e.g. muscle vs. other tissue) is.

    This article seemed useful:
    https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/caster-semenya-does-limiting-testosterone-in-female-athletes-make-sport-fairer/

    Despite a lack of detail of her medical record, it seems most likely that Semenya has Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS). A developing foetus with AIS, although being genetically male with XY chromosomes and testes, does not respond to the male testosterone levels because of a defect in the testosterone receptor gene. As a result, the infant is female at birth and develops as a normal girl and then woman.
     
    That "despite a lack of detail" bit is very interesting. I wonder what is really going on. Seems like something that would be important to know here.

    Professor Malcolm Ferguson-Smith, of the Cambridge Resource Centre for Comparative Genomics, and colleagues tested 3,387 women athletes at the Atlanta Olympic Games and found eight with XY sex chromosomes, of whom seven had AIS. Their heights were in the normal male range. Six of them had already had a gonadectomy and despite this were able to reach Olympic standard. In other words, virtually complete lack of testosterone did not appear to affect their athletic performance.

     

    I hadn't heard that, and the followup is also interesting:

    In a subsequent paper, Ferguson-Smith found that genes on the Y chromosome, especially those genes associated with height in the male range, are the most likely explanation for the high number of XY women with AIS and other DSDs in elite sport, rather than testosterone levels.
     
    That linked article still comes up with a goodthinker conclusion, but is at least thoughtful and gives useful information.

    This page gives a pretty good layman's overview of the multiple processes which can result in an "XY woman."
    https://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask352

    Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter

    , @BB753
    @SFG

    She's more than a woman! Genius falsetto. R. I. P. Barry Gibb.

    https://youtu.be/G2tvp5j-E3Q

    Replies: @Deckin

    , @TWS
    @SFG

    No not a woman not open to debate. If he were competing against men it wouldn't matter.

    , @guest
    @SFG

    "Sort of"

    Whatever it is, it obviously has an advantage that makes the competition farcical.

  23. SFG says:

    Read the comments on this article. As with the illegal immigration articles, the comments on the reader’s picks are really, really different from the Times picks, and do a nice job ripping the arguments apart.

    Before they delete them, here are the most-recommended ones, names snipped:

    “This article is close to non-scientific. I am a scientist (biophysics) who can read the literature, and what this article says stretches the truth through selective omission to make its point, which is intellectually dishonest. I feel sympathy for Semenya but we don’t have a reasonable solution in this case for a condition that is rare but leads to higher performance in a class of athletes. Other women athletes wouldn’t have doped with testosterone if it didn’t given them advantages in sports that demand sustained strength.

    And none of that is to deny that women have naturally occurring testosterone or that it is physiologically important for female development. That’s not what people mean when they say testosterone is the male hormone (only a literalist or somebody arguing in bad faith would claim that).”

    “This opinion piece is presented in a very deceptive way. The byline is for “Dr. Karkazis and Dr. Jordan-Young”. But neither of the two is a medical doctor, and neither has a degree in biology or medicine. A PhD in women’s studies is not proof of mastery of any form of objective knowledge. What we see here is a dislike for gender norms so strong that the authors are willing to destroy the chances of biologically normal females to win medals in any form of short-distance running.
    The whole point of separate competitions for women is to given women a chance to compete only against other women without male attributes or athletic advantages.”

    “Neither of these authors seem to be scientists. One is an anthropologist and one is a gender studies professor. This doesn’t disqualify them from commenting on this subject but I would prefer to have the opinion of a research MD and an exercise physiologist. Testosterone does have an effect on athletic performance….if it didn’t then why aren’t athletes allowed to “juice” with it. The case they are concerned about is an interesting “outlier” but shouldn’t be used to set precedent.”

    “The fact that a Yale faculty member (anthropologist?) who “Drawing on my training in cultural anthropology, gender studies, science studies, and empirical bioethics, my work is deeply interdisciplinary, and addresses a range of topics challenging entrenched scientific and medical beliefs about gender, sex” is writing mistakes notions about the performance enhancing aspects of T is worrisome.
    Fact: testosterone is a banned substance in sports. Ask Lance Armstrong why and how he used it for recovery.
    Fact: testosterone is a DEA federally controlled prescription under U.S. medical law because of the risks of abuse.
    So the authors are basically misleading with their intersectionality and gender studies. This is medicine and science. How to use it is appropriate for discussion”

    “I respectfully disagree and want to point out that there have been many other articles – in the Times as well – that support the science that testosterone is a key factor in muscle growth, stamina, etc. Studies have also shown that female runners with more testosterone have a distinct advantage in the events that Ms. Semenya runs. Testosterone levels are and always will be a key differentiation point between men and women, especially in athletics. Fact – men have more testosterone. Fact – the fastest women in the world in the 400 meters and 800 meters run times that are SLOWER than the officially recorded times of approximately 10,000 men running the same event. There are very good reasons why sports separate men and women, and testosterone is one of them. It is unfortunate that Ms. Semenya will have to conform to standards that will always be ripe for dissection and criticism, and that some will always see this as discriminatory against her. She is who is she and that is not her fault. But this is not a case where the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.”

    I really like this one, use the example for future arguments:
    “These two doctors don’t have a single science degree between them (not even an undergraduate one, as far as I was able to check), not to mention an MD. Their argument is appropriately confused, and is nothing but an attempt to muddle the water. First they do so when they argue that testosterone levels don’t matter that much because different levels have been observed in men competing in different sports… But this is a straw man argument. No one has argued that the hormone is central to all sports equally. In fact, the very ruling they attack is very narrow and applies only to track and field disciplines of a certain length. The authors then try to muddle the water again when they bring up the fact that testosterone is not exclusively a male hormone. But in order to be a defining sex characteristic it doesn’t need to be an exclusively male one – it is sufficient that it appears in dramatically different concentrations in men and women. What they say is like arguing that there is no link between smoking and lung cancer just because occasionally a non-smoker will get the disease. In sum, this piece is typical of the left’s war on science. While the right’s war on science focuses on global warming, the left’s war on science focuses on biological sex differences.”

    • Replies: @dr kill
    @SFG

    Yes. This is why it's called the Opinion Page. Women can have paper assholes too.

    , @res
    @SFG

    Thanks! That summary saved me a good deal of time and a click through to the NYT.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @SFG

    SFG, Thank you . I hate to read the Times. Now go rest your eyes.

    , @Unladen Swallow
    @SFG

    Thanks, I'm surprised the NYT hasn't deleted these already, they really undermine the narrative, assuming the typical Times reader bothers to read the comments section. You can tell they rely heavily on Cordelia Fine's tactic of using Testosterone to define maleness.

    , @guest
    @SFG

    Those are reasonable, but the very idea that one should have to respond to this article with anything but a raspberry is disheartening.

  24. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    because I think she’s a woman.

     
    Why do you think that?

  25. Women’s sports have always been like this. The Eastern Europeans monopolized Olympic events for decades by using steroids and I remember as long ago as the 70’s remembering complaints that some of the Eastern European women had “penises” or enlarged clitoris’s and were more like men.

    The difference in the modern era is that Olympic success has become the key to riches through sponsorship, advertising contracts, and speaking fees, etc. and so people will go to extraordinary lengths to seek Olympic success including all kinds of cheating.

    Caster Semenya is an unfortunate person, having been born with undescended testicles and presumably no penis, so she was thought to be a girl when she was young, but medical science and biological knowledge has advanced in leaps and bounds in the modern era and tests exist to measure testosterone levels and so on that were not available before.

    Of course, to win an Olympic gold medal an athlete almost has to be some kind of freak of nature, so that comes with the territory, but now that the wizard behind the curtain of women’s sports has been thoroughly revealed, maybe the time has come to drop the curtain on the farce of women’s track and field events altogether

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @Jonathan Mason

    Drop the curtain? As in, end women’s track and field? Why? Women participated in sports/games for exercise and entertainment going all the way back to Rome and Sparta....it’s on mosaics and frescos.

    Any man who thinks women shouldn’t compete just because they will never measure up to the men or to the men masquerading as women is something of a sore loser. I’ve never met a man who did sports on a decent level who also mocked women’s sports. It’s always the dudes who were never good enough to compete that get into that line of thinking. Maybe they are still jealous that they didn’t make the varsity squad in high school sport x? The dude then thinks to themselves, well I might have been one of the stars of the girls squad, so why is anyone giving these women attention over me? Very sore loser thinking.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @Ola

    , @Autochthon
    @Jonathan Mason

    I don't know that one always has to be a freak of nature; much depends upon the sport. Phelps' long arms, Caster's hidden testicles, and such can be critical, but many perfectly normal persons with nothing especially freakish but with otherwise healthy genes and who train to be the best athletes they can be do succeed:

    https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--VuXx8X2P--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/wvesjy23rcrrw8phe8fx.jpg

    http://www.rantsports.com/clubhouse/files/2014/01/Ashley-Wagner.jpg

    As in many cases, though, part of what goes on here is a variation on the theme of Sailer's Law of Female Journalism, that, come the revolution, disgusting freaks will be beloved athletes. Playboy was never evil because it objectified women (whatever that means), it was evil because the persons insisting it was evil were being passed over for the kinds of women who graced its pages. Likewise the Olympics are not unfair because put-upon women with birth-defects are being persecuted. Rather, the Olympics are evil because they reinforce that men want to sleep with and women wan tot be friends with Mikaela Shiffrin, not Caster Semanya, and so the one gets all the money from endorsements and adoration and such while the other...just...ewww.

  26. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    That’s exactly why I’m all in favor. It elicits a constant stream of mockery. Burn it all down.

  27. Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn’t easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple — discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic’s page on testosterone was the first search result, so I’ll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    (“Reference Values” means “the normal range for the people in question”.)
    (“Bioavailable” as well as “total” testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis’ and Jordan-Young’s essay. Alas, that’s most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.

    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women’s bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as “earliest” researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    “The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @ic1000

    Leftists being dishonest with data? I'm shocked, shocked.

    Replies: @415 reasons

    , @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    , @Keypusher
    @ic1000

    Excellent, as always.

    , @S. Anonyia
    @ic1000

    Yes, they give deliberate snippets of information to paint a false picture. They claim that in “6 of 11” running events women with lower testosterone won the race...notice that they don’t specify which running events lower testosterone isn’t a handicap. No doubt the marathon, 10k and 5k, where light weight and lung capacity is more beneficial than anything else, accounted for at least 3 of these 6 events. Also possibly the half marathon if they tested for that, and the 3000 meter race. I really doubt the 400,800 or 1500, which are all about power and also happen to be Caster’s races, were among those where the lower T women won. Also they don’t specify how much lower or what these runners’ levels were to begin with...probably were all within a very tight range compared to Caster’s outlier.

    , @res
    @ic1000

    And your normal ranges for females:


    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL
     
    Are very broad. Here are some thoughts from the abstract of one paper: Serum testosterone levels and reference ranges in reproductive-age women.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15251653

    RESULTS:
    The serum testosterone level in women with no acne, hirsutism, or menstrual dysfunction was 14.1 +/- 0.9 ng/dL (mean +/- standard error of the mean) (95% confidence interval [CI] = 12.4 to 15.8). This group was considered our study reference population. In women with menstrual dysfunction but no acne or hirsutism, the mean testosterone level was significantly higher (17.9 +/- 1.1 ng/dL; 95% CI = 15.7 to 20.0; P<0.002); with mild hirsutism, it further increased (38.4 +/- 5.1 ng/dL; 95% CI = 27.4 to 49.4; P<0.005); and with moderate to severe hirsutism, it was still higher (49.0 +/- 2.3 ng/dL; 95% CI = 44.4 to 53.6; P<0.003). Serum DHEAS levels showed similar patterns. The upper limit (mean + 2 standard deviations) of testosterone in our study reference population was 28 ng/dL, a level that provided a sensitivity of 84% for detecting hyperandrogenemia. The detection of hyperandrogenemia is essentially impossible when the upper limit of the reference range for testosterone from commercial laboratories (95 ng/dL) is used.

    CONCLUSION:
    The testosterone levels reported herein and in the literature for hyperandrogenic women both are within the reference (normal) ranges provided by commercial laboratories. These observations demonstrate why diagnosis of hyperandrogenemia in hyperandrogenic women is difficult when commercial laboratories are used and why this condition is not detected in most affected women. Commercial laboratories should reevaluate the methods used for establishing their reference ranges for serum testosterone.
     
    So their reference population of "women with no acne, hirsutism, or menstrual dysfunction" had a mean of 14.1 ng/dL and an SD of 7 ng/dL. So the lower end of the men's range is more than 30 (!!!) standard deviations above the mean for that group.

    I wanted to do the same analysis for all women, but failed to find a good source for the serum testosterone mean/SD in all women after a quick search. Making a quick guess of mean and SD both 20 ng/dL (which is probably in the ballpark given the reference ranges) would make the bottom end of the men's range 11 (!) SD above the women's mean.
    , @International Jew
    @ic1000


    One of their techniques is simple — discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers.
     
    We see this rhetorical technique everywhere:

    "Blacks aren't violent; there are lots of white murderers."

    "Muslims make fine immigrants. The vast majority are not terrorists."

    "Immigrants are what makes America great: Albert Einstein, John von Neumann, Werner von Braun..."

    Replies: @L Woods

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @ic1000

    Indeed they are being disingenuous, because they know better, as you say.

    Not only do those numbers not overlap, they are a magnitude apart.

    "Quantity has a quality all its own."

    , @Abe
    @ic1000


    Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard College.
     
    Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies, the queen of the sciences!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @guest
    @ic1000

    It is easier to mislead educated readers if you live in a trash culture that thrives on a discordant symphony of lies that blast out whenever anyone opens their clown mouth.

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @ic1000

    Does it concern the NYT at all that these authors are using this piece to pimp their book?

    Thus they have a direct financial incentive to make unsupported provocative claims without disclosing the contrary data.

    Time and again, the NYT publishes transparent pseudo-science. Apparently, they feel it's okay to deliberately spread misinformation about medical issues so long as: (1) it promotes "woke"thinking; and (2) they can maintain plausible deniability by designating it as an "op-ed."

    It's a shamefully dishonest organization. It wouldn't bother me so much except I know there are many people (like my mother for instance) who still think it's the authoritative "paper of record."

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  28. What about personality traits linked to testosterone levels like aggression or its more passive manifestation in the form of attempting to control others when, say, you’re not a cop?

  29. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    The IT that Semenya was born with was Y chromosomes and testicles. That’s a man, baby!

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @res
    @Jack D

    I'm surprised Truth hasn't chimed in here.

  30. Exceptions for true hermaphroditism or deformities can be accommodated but not every Tom, Dick and Harry who thinks they are women.

  31. @ic1000
    Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn't easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple -- discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic's page on testosterone was the first search result, so I'll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    ("Reference Values" means "the normal range for the people in question".)
    ("Bioavailable" as well as "total" testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis' and Jordan-Young's essay. Alas, that's most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.
     
    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women's bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as "earliest" researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    "The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Corvinus, @Keypusher, @S. Anonyia, @res, @International Jew, @Buzz Mohawk, @Abe, @guest, @Hypnotoad666

    Leftists being dishonest with data? I’m shocked, shocked.

    • Replies: @415 reasons
    @Jack D

    They’re the Party of Science, dontcha know?

  32. “Testosterone: An Unauthorized Biography.”

    Who comes up with such really senseless titles?

    There is a major desire to fill minds with meaningless word associations as long as someone can be found who feels oppressed and needs to be de-oppressed, post-humously or even post-genocidally.

    Meanwhile, at MIT Press via Mozilla’s Internet Health Report

    Data Feminism

    Dis gon be gud.

    Introduction

    Intersectional feminism isn’t just about women nor even just about gender. Feminism is about power – who has it and who doesn’t. And in a world in which data is power, and that power is wielded unequally, data feminism can help us understand how it can be challenged and changed.

    by Catherine D’Ignazio and Lauren Klein

    Oh good, a wall of text…

    We’ll have more to say about the importance of intersectionality in a few pages, but first let’s find out what happened with Christine Darden and her goal of becoming an aerospace engineer. As Shetterly tells it, Darden heard nothing from her boss but radio silence. [Happens to me all the time and I’m not even intersectional] But two weeks later, she was indeed promoted and transferred to an aerospace engineering group. Darden would go on to conduct ground-breaking research on sonic boom minimization techniques, author more than sixty scientific papers in the field of computational fluid dynamics, and earn her PhD in mechanical engineering– all while “juggling the duties of Girl Scout mom, Sunday school teacher, trips to music lessons, and homemaker,” she recalls.

    The Incredibles! Supermom!!

    For over a decade, this research required that Darden work overtime in the office as well as at home. But she could tell that her scientific accomplishments were still not being recognized at the same level as her male colleagues. Once again, data analysis opened doors for Darden. But this time, Darden wasn’t responsible for the math. Instead, her technical expertise provided a key datapoint for a larger advocacy project.

    Okay. Enough already. Scroll on ….

    But data-driven decision-making can be just as easily used to amplify the inequities already entrenched in public life. In Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy, Cathy O’Neill has drawn attention to how predictive policing models use data about property tax delinquency and arrest locations, the very same datasets used for good by the City of New York’s stats team, in order to determine which neighborhoods to patrol more heavily, and which neighborhoods to leave alone. Like city building inspectors, it turns out that police are also in short supply. But in the case of policing, data analysis does not always save lives.

    You know what’s coming! Overpolicing.

    Because more police are sent into neighborhoods that have had more crimes already reported, the police are more likely to be there when a new crime is committed (or, as in most cases, simply suspected of taking place). And because the police are already there, the people involved–usually poor, and usually people of color– are more likely to get ticketed, arrested, or even killed.

    Because the police are already there, blacks are more likely to get killed. That’s why St. Louis might call in the National Guard to keep black people from offing each other.

    This creates what O’Neill calls a “pernicious feedback loop,” amplifying the effects of the already pernicious criminalization of poverty that takes place in the United States. Meanwhile, in more affluent neighborhoods, the very same petty crimes–like jaywalking or littering, for instance– are far less likely to be prosecuted because the police simply aren’t there to see those crimes take place.

    Why aren’t the police there? Is it because nobody gets shot in the face because he refuses to move his car?

    This disparity in law enforcement is what led to the creation of White Collar Crime Risk Zones, a satirical map of all of the white collar crime that goes uninvestigated because neighborhoods of color are so overpoliced.

    White Collar. Get it? It’s not the opposite of Blue Collar. It’s the opposite of Black Collar.

    [Unironical red-colored map of the financial district elided]

    Do writers have IQ above 80 nowadays?

    • Replies: @guest
    @El Dato

    Uh, that's pretty bad satire. Can they actually believe beat cops whirling their batons as they stroll down the street can stop white-collar crime?

    [Faint Irish accent]: "You der, wit da dishonest accounting report! Dontcha be misleading the shareholders, now. Go on home and report your losses honestly before I tan yer hide!"

    by the way, blacks commit a disproportionate amount of white-collar crimes, too.

    , @Forbes
    @El Dato


    the very same datasets used for good by the City of New York’s stats team
     
    Huh? Who knew the City of New York had a stats team?? Not only the Knicks, Rangers, Yankees, but a stats team!

    Presumably, a reference the Compstat analysis system developed by the NYPD. That pernicious feedback loop led city homicides to go from roughly 2,300 in 1990 to 290 in 2017.

    Some people are prone to find the cloud in every silver lining...
    , @Alfa158
    @El Dato

    This is a bit of mythology that some Blacks subscribe to. They believe that Whites and Blacks commit crimes at the same rate but because the police are concentrated in Black neighborhoods, a disproportionate number of Blacks are arrested and convicted. In some cases it is even believed that the murder rates are the same but some White murders are falsified by the authorities as suicides or auto accidents to depress the stats on White murder.

    Replies: @guest, @Ghost of Bull Moose, @Alden

    , @HammerJack
    @El Dato

    At this point, I think we all know that the phrase "white collar crime" is a 'classic anti-semitic dog whistle'.

    Meanwhile, in the 'How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy' department, by sheer chance this week's news also mentions that data crunchers have figured out how to predict your chance of getting into an auto accident simply by analyzing the Google Street View of your home.

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/613432/how-a-google-street-view-image-of-your-house-predicts-your-risk-of-a-car-accident/

  33. anonymous[306] • Disclaimer says:

    “It is not the “male sex hormone,” nor is it the key to athletic performance. Why do we insist otherwise?”

    They are at least partly right. Straw men have no testosterone.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @anonymous

    anonymous, BINGO ! Strawmen the favorite men of feminists. No balls. No dick. What's not to like.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @anonymous


    Straw men have no testosterone.
     
    Say what? Speak for yourself, Kemosabe!


    https://media.pixcove.com/O/0/4/The-Wizard-Of-Oz-Actor-Ray-Bolger-Vintage-Free-Ima-1316.jpg

  34. Ola says: • Website
    @SFG
    @Just Saying

    Yeah, I can't really blame Semenya, she's just competing with the body God gave her. And if you've got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you're not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman...I don't know. She's got a Y chromosome and testes, it's just that her testosterone receptors don't work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I'd just say 'sort of'.

    Replies: @Ola, @Ola, @Desiderius, @stillCARealist, @anon, @res, @BB753, @TWS, @guest

    Her testosterone receptors work just fine. Her testicles didn´t descend into the scrotum before birth, that´s all.

    She is XY, has testicles, working receptors, no womb. no ovaries. She is a man, who happened to be misidentified as a female at birth. Not her fault, but she should clearly be competing with men not women.

    There are two classes in T&F: men and women. There are not a sub 7 feet class and 7+ feet class in basket, thus that kind of reasoning is irrelevant.

  35. Ola says:
    @SFG
    @Just Saying

    Yeah, I can't really blame Semenya, she's just competing with the body God gave her. And if you've got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you're not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman...I don't know. She's got a Y chromosome and testes, it's just that her testosterone receptors don't work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I'd just say 'sort of'.

    Replies: @Ola, @Ola, @Desiderius, @stillCARealist, @anon, @res, @BB753, @TWS, @guest

    Her testosterone receptors work just fine. Her testicles didn´t descend into the scrotum before birth, that´s all.

    She is XY, has testicles, working receptors, no womb. no ovaries. She is a man, who happened to be misidentified as a female at birth. Not her fault, but she should clearly be competing with men not women.

  36. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    There are two classes in T&F: men and women. There are not a sub 7 feet class and 7+ feet class in basket, thus that kind of reasoning is irrelevant.

  37. Bitfu says:

    How much artistry and achievement is the result of guys who just want to get laid? [Gay or straight.] Quite a bit, I’d say.
    Of course, there are many exceptions, but the rule still holds. Most creativity and achievement comes from younger men who happen to be at peak-testosterone. Additionally, said creativity & achievement tends to wane as testosterone decreases. Maybe it’s a coincidence, but common sense suggests it’s not.

    I’m not saying testosterone is the only driver. And of course, there are exceptions from women and older men. But, for whatever reason, they are exceptions.

    Maybe this explains why so little in the way of art and achievement seems to come out of the of Arab world these days. Islam has a retrograde relationship with women, and so there’s little to be gained from channeling testosterone in a socially advantageous.

    Reductive and unfalsifiable stuff, I know.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    @Bitfu


    Islam has a retrograde relationship with women
     
    You seem to be confused.
  38. @ic1000
    Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn't easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple -- discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic's page on testosterone was the first search result, so I'll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    ("Reference Values" means "the normal range for the people in question".)
    ("Bioavailable" as well as "total" testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis' and Jordan-Young's essay. Alas, that's most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.
     
    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women's bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as "earliest" researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    "The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Corvinus, @Keypusher, @S. Anonyia, @res, @International Jew, @Buzz Mohawk, @Abe, @guest, @Hypnotoad666

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their “commentary” seriously?

    • Troll: ic1000
    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    @Corvinus

    The problem is they influence people who really ought to no better.

    , @Desiderius
    @Corvinus

    Just white policy-makers and censors, so we’re all good.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @anonymous
    @Corvinus

    How is it that my (previous) comment in this thread had been in moderation for over an hour (where it remains) while the umpteenth from this mock Progressive scold sailed through?

    Mr. Sailer, please explain how your whimming works so that some of us don’t waste our time.

    , @ic1000
    @Corvinus

    Not even wrong.

    , @L Woods
    @Corvinus

    I happen to dwell in the Current Year military, where this sort of tripe has informed policy for decades. Thank you (don’t) come again troll.

    , @Anonymous
    @Corvinus


    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their “commentary” seriously?
     
    No. But you will when they give you a good whipping and force you to transition for your own good.

    Corvina.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Corvinus


    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their “commentary” seriously?
     
    They're writing in the New York Times, dumbshit. Do people write op-eds in the Times to not be influential. Is the Times not an influential media outlet? Have you ever written anything for the Times? And clearly the cumulative effect of people like these two shrews is influential given that trans-genderism is now becoming a "normal" thing - a new orthodoxy that we are all supposed to recognize or face serious social consequences.

    And, as usual, you throw around terms like "alt-right" and "normie" which you don't even understand.

    You are a stupid idiot.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @obwandiyag
    @Corvinus

    Nice point. This organ really does love to hoover up the obscure writings of unknowns and make them sound like the tidal wave of the future.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @guest

    , @Anon
    @Corvinus

    Corvinus says:

    • Troll: ic1000

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag


    Steve, you should consider paying this guy.

    Replies: @L Woods, @Mr. Anon

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Corvinus

    Corvi, The Op-ed is in the NYT, so like getting an imprimatur. This is agenda driven narrative. And it would still be garbage science if it was in the Buffalo News, just way fewer readers. Thank you Steve.

    , @guest
    @Corvinus

    Who cares if anyone's heard of them? Steve doesn't pull these out of some obscure journal. This was published in the NYT!

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @BigDickNick
    @Corvinus

    This is the classic left wing dismissal of conservative concerns.

    Stage 1: x isn't happening you're paranoid and mentally ill.
    Stage 2: of course x is happening. It's a traditional american value! It makes us better off.
    Stage 3: X is a punishment for how evil you are. You deserve X you piece of shit!!!!

  39. Anonymous[807] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    'Caster Semenya'

    Strange how life imitates art.

    'Caster' of course implies castrate - from the Latin meaning 'pure' - in this case purity means removal of the 'pollution ' creating male generative organs, hence those two celestial twins Castor and Pollux.
    (Pollux from the root of 'pollution' but strangely resembling a vulgar related Britishism).

    'Semenya', shades of what the 'castrated' are unable to produce, and of course 'testosterone'.

    Replies: @slumber_j, @Anonymous, @bored identity, @International Jew, @Jonathan Mason

    ‘Caster’ of course implies castrate – from the Latin meaning ‘pure’ – in this case purity means removal of the ‘pollution ‘ creating male generative organs, hence those two celestial twins Castor and Pollux.
    (Pollux from the root of ‘pollution’ but strangely resembling a vulgar related Britishism).

    Similarly Sandra Bullock.

  40. How the Associated Press, Reuters, NY Times, NPR, Washington Post, and BBC could all leave this CRUCIAL fact out of their reporting is beyond me.

    Because they’ve discovered that their lies are immune from criticism, whether it be a lie by suggestio false or suppressio veri.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    @dearieme


    How the Associated Press, Reuters, NY Times, NPR, Washington Post, and BBC could all leave this CRUCIAL fact out of their reporting is beyond me.
     
    How, you ask? Facts inconvenient to The Narrative will always be ignored.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  41. Don’t comparative strength & muscle mass make the difference? Even the least muscular male is stronger than a woman? Isn’t it enough to discuss the strength levels? Must we put everything under the microscope and into the Petrie dish?

    We have now reached an era with so little privacy that every amateur and professional athlete must surrender every shred of dignity to the test-tube & lab-coat crowd, with testosterone level results published for the world to gawk at.

    Oh, and it’s all for the children—the mommies and babies—and for the sake of fairness in a phase of human history where cheating, scamming and all manner of getting one over for financial gain (and even just for glory) is the norm.

    How can “the children” — or even adults — have any room to admire the work of these top athletes or top-of-the-line anything when personal lives, right down to the details of the top performers’ genitalia, are scrutinized to the hilt?

  42. @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    The problem is they influence people who really ought to no better.

  43. @Jack D
    @ic1000

    Leftists being dishonest with data? I'm shocked, shocked.

    Replies: @415 reasons

    They’re the Party of Science, dontcha know?

  44. @YetAnotherAnon
    I think the myth of testosterone affecting ANYTHING has already been conclusively demolished by Cordela Fine in Testosterone Rex, and her book will become the 'Mismeasure of Man' de nos jours.

    Incidentally the link to the Caster Samenya story is long gone, but it can be found on Wayback.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160628092447/http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/semenya-has-no-womb-or-ovaries/story-e6frexni-1225771672245

    "World athletics is in crisis over the gender of Caster Semenya after tests revealed the South African world champion has no womb or ovaries.

    The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) is ready to disqualify Semenya from future events and advise her to have immediate surgery because her condition carries grave health risks. They have also not ruled out stripping Semenya of her 800m world championships gold medal.

    Tests conducted during the world athletics championships in Berlin last month, where Semenya's gender became the subject of heated debate following her victory in the 800m, revealed evidence she is a hermaphrodite, someone with both male and female sexual characteristics.

    Semenya, 18, has three times the amount of testosterone that a "normal'' female would have. According to a source closely involved with the Semenya examinations IAAF testing, which included various scans, has revealed she has internal testes - the male sexual organs which produce testosterone."
     
    The story is a sad example of how journalists can't tell the difference between "sex" and "gender" any more, or alternatively are too cowed to use the words correctly. Ms Semenya obviously 'presents' as female, for athletic purposes at any rate. Gender, unlike sex, is arguably a social construct.

    Replies: @BB753, @Desiderius, @Daniel H, @Alden, @Grace Jones

    They are neither ignorant nor cowed.

    On the contrary they are feeling their oats and paid on that basis. This feels right for the ruling class because it’s in line with the Jaffe memo thinking in which they were educated (the thinking, not the memo proper).

  45. @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    Just white policy-makers and censors, so we’re all good.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Desiderius

    "Just white policy-makers and censors, so we’re all good."

    Like who? How do you know for certain? What evidence do you have that these groups are definitively influenced by those two womyn? Be specific.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @TWS

  46. @SFG
    @Just Saying

    Yeah, I can't really blame Semenya, she's just competing with the body God gave her. And if you've got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you're not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman...I don't know. She's got a Y chromosome and testes, it's just that her testosterone receptors don't work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I'd just say 'sort of'.

    Replies: @Ola, @Ola, @Desiderius, @stillCARealist, @anon, @res, @BB753, @TWS, @guest

    The reason there are women’s events in the first place rather than a free-for-all is that men enjoy certain biological advantages. If you enjoy those same advantages you should compete with the big boys.

  47. Anon[324] • Disclaimer says:

    Because of privacy concerns, I don’t think we really know exactly what the deal is with Caster Semenya, right? But I’ve read that she falls into one of the many intersex categories, rare genetic birth defects, some of which can be classified as defective men, some as defective women, and some as genuinely impossible to sex one way or the other. These are rare and difficult cases, and the sporting world basically needs to take them one at a time and make fair decisions.

    But yeah, she has nothing to do with the trans issue.

    Also, when did “the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard” become some sort of medical research outfit? All the professors there have glorified English degrees. Nobody in the department has any sort of medical, biology, psychology, or STEM qualifications. I think a genuine “gender studies” department would be useful, but the sort of professors in the current incarnations are completely useless.

    • Replies: @FLgeezer
    @Anon

    >the sort of professors in the current incarnation are completely useless.

    Definitely. And their proliferation is largely responsible for the inflated cost of a worthwhile college
    education.

  48. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    How is it that my (previous) comment in this thread had been in moderation for over an hour (where it remains) while the umpteenth from this mock Progressive scold sailed through?

    Mr. Sailer, please explain how your whimming works so that some of us don’t waste our time.

  49. @Tono Bungay
    What escapes these researchers is that if it is unjust to exclude Semenya -- and it certainly is wrong to insist that she take drugs to modify her natural biochemistry -- then it is also wrong to exclude real men from the women's races. The natural endpoint of their argument is to have no division between men's and women's sports. Oddly, though, few feminists seem to want that.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @guest

    Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.

    Indeed, the reductio ad absurdum is for there to be no division, for men and women to compete together. But is this actually absurd? The only reason for the existence of most women’s sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    There are some events for which women may naturally be better suited, such that women might continue to come out at the top. Women’s type gymnastics (particularly the balance beam — ouch!) very-long-distance swimming, and the graceful figure skating that women do are examples.

    It might be a good idea to just have women compete against men in all sporting events. It might help re-educate them and the Western World that men and women are different.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The only reason for the existence of most women’s sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    One could take that a step further and say that there should be basketball leagues and sprinting events limited to white men.

    Replies: @OFWHAP, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.
     
    Like Bruce Jenner, then. I would agree if that is the case, then the doll is a guy.

    But what of Semenya's anatomy? I assume that he/she does not have a penis, but how is his/her anatomy configured. Where is his/her urethra situated if there is no penis? Does he/she also have a vagina? Does he/she have a uterus? Can he/she reproduce?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    , @Anon
    @Buzz Mohawk

    “Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.”

    Red blood cells don’t have chromosomes. The gratuitous cruelty of calling her “he” fits with opinions that fail a Biology 101 understanding of the human body.

    Replies: @Jack D, @TWS, @guest

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk


    The only reason for the existence of most women’s sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?
     
    How does Title IX work into all this?

    Replies: @anonymous

  50. @SFG
    Read the comments on this article. As with the illegal immigration articles, the comments on the reader's picks are really, really different from the Times picks, and do a nice job ripping the arguments apart.

    Before they delete them, here are the most-recommended ones, names snipped:

    "This article is close to non-scientific. I am a scientist (biophysics) who can read the literature, and what this article says stretches the truth through selective omission to make its point, which is intellectually dishonest. I feel sympathy for Semenya but we don't have a reasonable solution in this case for a condition that is rare but leads to higher performance in a class of athletes. Other women athletes wouldn't have doped with testosterone if it didn't given them advantages in sports that demand sustained strength.

    And none of that is to deny that women have naturally occurring testosterone or that it is physiologically important for female development. That's not what people mean when they say testosterone is the male hormone (only a literalist or somebody arguing in bad faith would claim that)."

    "This opinion piece is presented in a very deceptive way. The byline is for "Dr. Karkazis and Dr. Jordan-Young". But neither of the two is a medical doctor, and neither has a degree in biology or medicine. A PhD in women's studies is not proof of mastery of any form of objective knowledge. What we see here is a dislike for gender norms so strong that the authors are willing to destroy the chances of biologically normal females to win medals in any form of short-distance running.
    The whole point of separate competitions for women is to given women a chance to compete only against other women without male attributes or athletic advantages."

    "Neither of these authors seem to be scientists. One is an anthropologist and one is a gender studies professor. This doesn't disqualify them from commenting on this subject but I would prefer to have the opinion of a research MD and an exercise physiologist. Testosterone does have an effect on athletic performance....if it didn't then why aren't athletes allowed to "juice" with it. The case they are concerned about is an interesting "outlier" but shouldn't be used to set precedent."

    "The fact that a Yale faculty member (anthropologist?) who "Drawing on my training in cultural anthropology, gender studies, science studies, and empirical bioethics, my work is deeply interdisciplinary, and addresses a range of topics challenging entrenched scientific and medical beliefs about gender, sex" is writing mistakes notions about the performance enhancing aspects of T is worrisome.
    Fact: testosterone is a banned substance in sports. Ask Lance Armstrong why and how he used it for recovery.
    Fact: testosterone is a DEA federally controlled prescription under U.S. medical law because of the risks of abuse.
    So the authors are basically misleading with their intersectionality and gender studies. This is medicine and science. How to use it is appropriate for discussion"

    "I respectfully disagree and want to point out that there have been many other articles - in the Times as well - that support the science that testosterone is a key factor in muscle growth, stamina, etc. Studies have also shown that female runners with more testosterone have a distinct advantage in the events that Ms. Semenya runs. Testosterone levels are and always will be a key differentiation point between men and women, especially in athletics. Fact - men have more testosterone. Fact - the fastest women in the world in the 400 meters and 800 meters run times that are SLOWER than the officially recorded times of approximately 10,000 men running the same event. There are very good reasons why sports separate men and women, and testosterone is one of them. It is unfortunate that Ms. Semenya will have to conform to standards that will always be ripe for dissection and criticism, and that some will always see this as discriminatory against her. She is who is she and that is not her fault. But this is not a case where the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."

    I really like this one, use the example for future arguments:
    "These two doctors don't have a single science degree between them (not even an undergraduate one, as far as I was able to check), not to mention an MD. Their argument is appropriately confused, and is nothing but an attempt to muddle the water. First they do so when they argue that testosterone levels don't matter that much because different levels have been observed in men competing in different sports... But this is a straw man argument. No one has argued that the hormone is central to all sports equally. In fact, the very ruling they attack is very narrow and applies only to track and field disciplines of a certain length. The authors then try to muddle the water again when they bring up the fact that testosterone is not exclusively a male hormone. But in order to be a defining sex characteristic it doesn't need to be an exclusively male one - it is sufficient that it appears in dramatically different concentrations in men and women. What they say is like arguing that there is no link between smoking and lung cancer just because occasionally a non-smoker will get the disease. In sum, this piece is typical of the left's war on science. While the right's war on science focuses on global warming, the left's war on science focuses on biological sex differences."

    Replies: @dr kill, @res, @Buffalo Joe, @Unladen Swallow, @guest

    Yes. This is why it’s called the Opinion Page. Women can have paper assholes too.

  51. @BB753
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Gender is solely a grammatical construct. If you want to say to say that a man looks like a woman, or looks ambiguous, there's a word for it: epicene. Look it up!
    Please leave gender alone! It belongs to linguistics.

    Replies: @anonymous, @YetAnotherAnon, @Mr. Anon

    A grammatical construct IS a social construct! It wasn’t evolution that made ships in English usage female, or a house masculine but a door feminine in German.

  52. anonymous[332] • Disclaimer says:

    OFF TOPIC – Affirmative-action-killer-cop update from the Mini-Mogadishu Star-Tribune:

    The city of Minneapolis will pay the family of Justine Ruszczyk Damond a record $20 million to settle a lawsuit over her July 15, 2017, shooting death by a Minneapolis police officer.

    Mayor Jacob Frey announced the agreement solemnly at a news conference Friday, flanked by City Council members, the city attorney and the police chief. The deal stipulates that the family will donate $2 million of its settlement to the Minneapolis Foundation’s Fund for Safe Communities, a program set up to fight gun violence in the city, Frey said.

    “This is not a victory for anyone, but rather a way for our city to move forward,” said Frey. “And I do believe we will move forward together.”

    The settlement will drain the city’s self-insurance fund, which the city previously projected to have $27.1 million by the end of the year. Over the next few months, the city will develop a plan to replenish its reserves, said Minneapolis Chief Financial Officer Mark Ruff.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @anonymous

    Good ! Excellent! Tax those hypocritical liberals to death. Import more 60 IQ tribesmen and give them affirmative action you suicidal liberals.

    How about suing whatever religious group sponsored him? That would be an excellent way to check those religious organizations. Come on, get with it all you underemployed attorneys

  53. “Woven folklore into science…” Like the myth that women can do anything a man can do. That’s why physical tests for firefighters are skewed so women can join the department. Still waiting for the first woman to be recruited by Nick Saban or Urban Meyers. And as to Caster, nature played a dirty trick on her. I genuinely feel sorry for her. You know, I watch ironworkers working out of man lifts, when years ago we climbed the iron. Is that solely for safety or so women could be employed. I doubt there are too many women who could climb a 30’column with 40 pounds of tools and nuts and bolts hanging from their tool belt. And please don’t link me to a video of a sinewy gal climbing a column. Saw it. Too slow, too stressed and we did that all day.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @Buffalo Joe

    Mr. Joe, I was amazed the first time an ironworker climbed up an upright beam right past me (I was working on a scaffold next to the structure)...just like a monkey. I did not know people could do that.

    The manlifts are probably used both for safety and so women can be employed. We had a lady on the masons crew who was physically unable to make her daily block laying quota...so they made her a foreman. Problem solved, tho with a fair amount of grumbling from the other masons.

  54. It is no myth that I am on the verge of being declared officially bald by the BBI(Bald Bastards International).

    Genetic ancestry and testosterone are doing their work. My bald spot met up with my receding hairline years ago and time is removing the brave hairs that fought on despite the odds.

    It is also no myth that men over the age of 50 with full heads of hair have sold their souls to the Devil to keep their locks.

    It gives me no joy to state this obvious fact, and many decent men such as Peter Brimelow have fallen victim to this unholy hirsuteness, but there it is. Derbyshire is a Limey with sufficient hair lossage to include him among the Godly men or math cranks who rejected the Devil’s bargain.

  55. Easy guide to writing NYT editorials:

    X exists – and that’s a problem.

    X still exists – here’s why that’s a problem.

    The myth of X.

    The conservative case for Y.

    X being anything healthy, normal, beautiful and true, and Y being anything disgusting, evil and degenerate.

  56. The main reason why athletes use steroids is not to get stronger, but to speed up recovery time from injuries. That’s especially important as they get older.

    • Replies: @Ola
    @prosa123

    Hardly... That is one reason for sure, but testosterone helps with almost everything. That's why male world records are about 10-12 % percent better in almost all T&F events (in the throws the difference is much larger). Steroid makes you MUCH stronger.

    , @Anon
    @prosa123

    Armstrong was on T all the time, and seemed to know how to ride. Our Caster is similarly never falling. What injuries are you taking about? No need to answer, just stop and think twice.

    , @dr kill
    @prosa123

    No. Just no.

  57. The Future of Women’s Sports is Male.

    I’ve been saying that for a while now. I don’t think women see it as weird that the absolute top female athletes are men; haven’t they been giving their daughters men’s names for several generations now?

  58. @ic1000
    Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn't easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple -- discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic's page on testosterone was the first search result, so I'll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    ("Reference Values" means "the normal range for the people in question".)
    ("Bioavailable" as well as "total" testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis' and Jordan-Young's essay. Alas, that's most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.
     
    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women's bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as "earliest" researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    "The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Corvinus, @Keypusher, @S. Anonyia, @res, @International Jew, @Buzz Mohawk, @Abe, @guest, @Hypnotoad666

    Excellent, as always.

  59. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Tono Bungay

    Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.

    Indeed, the reductio ad absurdum is for there to be no division, for men and women to compete together. But is this actually absurd? The only reason for the existence of most women's sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    There are some events for which women may naturally be better suited, such that women might continue to come out at the top. Women's type gymnastics (particularly the balance beam -- ouch!) very-long-distance swimming, and the graceful figure skating that women do are examples.

    It might be a good idea to just have women compete against men in all sporting events. It might help re-educate them and the Western World that men and women are different.

    Replies: @prosa123, @Jonathan Mason, @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    The only reason for the existence of most women’s sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    One could take that a step further and say that there should be basketball leagues and sprinting events limited to white men.

    • Replies: @OFWHAP
    @prosa123

    One could take that a step further and say that there should be basketball leagues and sprinting events limited to white men.

    We have that sprinter from Strake Jesuit in Houston, so we're good now.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @prosa123


    One could take that a step further and say that there should be basketball leagues and sprinting events limited to white men.
     
    Cap Anson lives!
  60. @Desiderius
    @Corvinus

    Just white policy-makers and censors, so we’re all good.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Just white policy-makers and censors, so we’re all good.”

    Like who? How do you know for certain? What evidence do you have that these groups are definitively influenced by those two womyn? Be specific.

    • Troll: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Corvinus

    No

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @TWS
    @Corvinus

    If you can't entertain like the duck, get to the back of the bus.

  61. @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    Not even wrong.

  62. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    Except it’s not just her. At the 2016 800m podium, at least one of the other two medal winners was also intersex, and the third is suspected to be

  63. Franz Liszt von Raiding [AKA "Franz Frederic Alkan Henselt"] says:
    @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    CASTER. IS. A. MAN. Totally unfair to have cousin IT competing against all natural female athletes who’ve trained their WHOLE LIVES just to have the rug pulled out from under them by PC thugs. He has undescended testicles. If he were truly female he wouldn’t have balls ANYWHERE capiche? an abnormality doesn’t put you in the other sex category by default. Of course the TREASONOUS mainstream media tried to gaslight the room temp IQ public into not believing their LYING EYES.

  64. @SFG
    @Just Saying

    Yeah, I can't really blame Semenya, she's just competing with the body God gave her. And if you've got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you're not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman...I don't know. She's got a Y chromosome and testes, it's just that her testosterone receptors don't work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I'd just say 'sort of'.

    Replies: @Ola, @Ola, @Desiderius, @stillCARealist, @anon, @res, @BB753, @TWS, @guest

    Why does this person (it) want to compete at the Olympic level? Well, it has likely been running and training all along as a woman, and it can plainly see that it has the ability to be faster and stronger than the other women. So that means victories and medals and accolades. If Semenya is actually a man, then he would have to compete against other men… who would likely kick his butt. No more medals and ribbons.

    Better to keep calling itself a woman and doing lots of winning.

  65. @Corvinus
    @Desiderius

    "Just white policy-makers and censors, so we’re all good."

    Like who? How do you know for certain? What evidence do you have that these groups are definitively influenced by those two womyn? Be specific.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @TWS

    No

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Desiderius

    LOL, you say that you are about good faith, but you can't even display it yourself.

    Are you a Jewish woman?

    Replies: @Desiderius

  66. @slumber_j
    @Anonymous

    It's positively Nabokovian out there sometimes.

    I had a really unpleasant, brutish college classmate whose surname was Malolepsy. And come to think of it, a really hot girlfriend for a while named Woodhouse.

    Replies: @Anon

    named Woodhouse

    Did she have any aunts noteworthy in particular?

  67. Rebecca M. Jordan-Young looks sort of like what you’d expect.

    Katrina Karkazis most definitely does not.

    • Replies: @SafeNow
    @peterike

    If I had a son in college dating a gender-studies major (or a major in any of the grievance-studies concentrations), I would feel he is making a mistake. I would worry. I would hope the relationship would end, and he would meet a gal studying to be something other than contentious.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

  68. @prosa123
    The main reason why athletes use steroids is not to get stronger, but to speed up recovery time from injuries. That's especially important as they get older.

    Replies: @Ola, @Anon, @dr kill

    Hardly… That is one reason for sure, but testosterone helps with almost everything. That’s why male world records are about 10-12 % percent better in almost all T&F events (in the throws the difference is much larger). Steroid makes you MUCH stronger.

  69. Katrina Karkazis is a senior visiting fellow at the Global Health Justice Partnership at Yale University. Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard College.

    If this bit read something like…

    Katrina Karkazis is a senior visiting fellow at the Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry. Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Biological Chemistry of the University of Michigan’s Medical School.

    ….then we might bother about what these people had to say. In the event, this is – at best! – something like a paper about astrophysics, derogating the heliocentric model of the solar system, written by an expert on medieval farming techniques and a specialist in the the history of commedia dell’arte.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Autochthon

    They didn’t even take college anatomy and physiology courses. Maybe it should be required freshman year in all colleges. It would clear up a lot of the Insanity Studies nonsense.

  70. @DCBillS
    So Yale and Barnard hire idiots to influence the young. The issue they discuss can be analyzed scientifically, has been, and the results are clear - testosterone levels influence athletic performance. Of course facts don't matter to idiots.

    Replies: @ben tillman

    Or liars.

  71. Hard to believe that “thought leaders” of the most powerful nation on Earth are all members of this asinine cargo cult of biological denialism.

  72. anon[419] • Disclaimer says:
    @SFG
    @Just Saying

    Yeah, I can't really blame Semenya, she's just competing with the body God gave her. And if you've got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you're not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman...I don't know. She's got a Y chromosome and testes, it's just that her testosterone receptors don't work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I'd just say 'sort of'.

    Replies: @Ola, @Ola, @Desiderius, @stillCARealist, @anon, @res, @BB753, @TWS, @guest

    Yeah, I can’t really blame Semenya, she’s just competing with the body God gave her. And if you’ve got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you’re not going to step aside nicely.

    it’s not about “drive” its about advantages

    plenty of lower level athletes have lots of drive and lots of heart but just don’t have the ability

    give them some steroids and all of a sudden…..

  73. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    Much easier to add a third category to competitions for freakish hermaphrodites like this one: “hermaphrodite.” (Hey it’s nicer than “It” or “Shemale!”

    The objective fact is these creatures, through no fault of their own, are indeed, neither female nor male. But, just as females must compete with females and males with males for there to be any modicum of sense to it all, so, then can hermaphroditc sorts compete amongst themselves.

    Of course, that solution is logical and fair, so it shall never be implemented by The Man.

  74. @prosa123
    The main reason why athletes use steroids is not to get stronger, but to speed up recovery time from injuries. That's especially important as they get older.

    Replies: @Ola, @Anon, @dr kill

    Armstrong was on T all the time, and seemed to know how to ride. Our Caster is similarly never falling. What injuries are you taking about? No need to answer, just stop and think twice.

  75. res says:
    @SFG
    @Just Saying

    Yeah, I can't really blame Semenya, she's just competing with the body God gave her. And if you've got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you're not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman...I don't know. She's got a Y chromosome and testes, it's just that her testosterone receptors don't work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I'd just say 'sort of'.

    Replies: @Ola, @Ola, @Desiderius, @stillCARealist, @anon, @res, @BB753, @TWS, @guest

    Is she a woman…I don’t know. She’s got a Y chromosome and testes, it’s just that her testosterone receptors don’t work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I’d just say ‘sort of’.

    The thing that is ironic about this (in particular the things from the idiots Steve quotes) is that the reason she can present as female is due to her testosterone receptors not working. Thus showing the importance of testosterone to creating a fully functional man. But it does mean (in theory at least) that she should be relatively insensitive to testosterone, making those high levels less significant than they seem. I am not sure how accurate that theory is though. Partial insensitivity is possible–I don’t know if differential insensitivity (e.g. muscle vs. other tissue) is.

    This article seemed useful:
    https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/caster-semenya-does-limiting-testosterone-in-female-athletes-make-sport-fairer/

    Despite a lack of detail of her medical record, it seems most likely that Semenya has Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS). A developing foetus with AIS, although being genetically male with XY chromosomes and testes, does not respond to the male testosterone levels because of a defect in the testosterone receptor gene. As a result, the infant is female at birth and develops as a normal girl and then woman.

    That “despite a lack of detail” bit is very interesting. I wonder what is really going on. Seems like something that would be important to know here.

    Professor Malcolm Ferguson-Smith, of the Cambridge Resource Centre for Comparative Genomics, and colleagues tested 3,387 women athletes at the Atlanta Olympic Games and found eight with XY sex chromosomes, of whom seven had AIS. Their heights were in the normal male range. Six of them had already had a gonadectomy and despite this were able to reach Olympic standard. In other words, virtually complete lack of testosterone did not appear to affect their athletic performance.

    I hadn’t heard that, and the followup is also interesting:

    In a subsequent paper, Ferguson-Smith found that genes on the Y chromosome, especially those genes associated with height in the male range, are the most likely explanation for the high number of XY women with AIS and other DSDs in elite sport, rather than testosterone levels.

    That linked article still comes up with a goodthinker conclusion, but is at least thoughtful and gives useful information.

    This page gives a pretty good layman’s overview of the multiple processes which can result in an “XY woman.”
    https://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask352

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter
    @res



    As a result, the infant is female at birth and develops as a normal girl and then woman.
     

     
    I seem to remember that normal females have a uterus and ovaries, and after menarche, they menstruate until menopause.

    I would not call an individual who lacks those characteristics a normal female.

    And, given an individual who has X and Y chromosomes and has AIS, I would call them an abnormal male.
  76. @HammerJack

    ...nor is it the key to athletic performance.
     
    I do hope that Rebecca ("Becky") and "Rainstorm" Katrina realize they're putting another nail in the coffin of women's sports.

    As it is, colleges have to scrape the barrel to find enough cis-gendered females to fill out their Title IX teams. It's going to get harder--much harder--when they have to compete with men.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Neuday, @Forbes

    They probably don’t care about destroying a women’s athletics. Female athletes are typically normal, conservative to apolitical women, even the lesbians. Female journalists are frumpy leftists and probably have bad memories of gym class.

  77. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    Don’t allow either. Semenya is a man with no external male genitalia. XY. Allowing her to compete is what paves the way for trannies to jump in next.

  78. @SFG
    Read the comments on this article. As with the illegal immigration articles, the comments on the reader's picks are really, really different from the Times picks, and do a nice job ripping the arguments apart.

    Before they delete them, here are the most-recommended ones, names snipped:

    "This article is close to non-scientific. I am a scientist (biophysics) who can read the literature, and what this article says stretches the truth through selective omission to make its point, which is intellectually dishonest. I feel sympathy for Semenya but we don't have a reasonable solution in this case for a condition that is rare but leads to higher performance in a class of athletes. Other women athletes wouldn't have doped with testosterone if it didn't given them advantages in sports that demand sustained strength.

    And none of that is to deny that women have naturally occurring testosterone or that it is physiologically important for female development. That's not what people mean when they say testosterone is the male hormone (only a literalist or somebody arguing in bad faith would claim that)."

    "This opinion piece is presented in a very deceptive way. The byline is for "Dr. Karkazis and Dr. Jordan-Young". But neither of the two is a medical doctor, and neither has a degree in biology or medicine. A PhD in women's studies is not proof of mastery of any form of objective knowledge. What we see here is a dislike for gender norms so strong that the authors are willing to destroy the chances of biologically normal females to win medals in any form of short-distance running.
    The whole point of separate competitions for women is to given women a chance to compete only against other women without male attributes or athletic advantages."

    "Neither of these authors seem to be scientists. One is an anthropologist and one is a gender studies professor. This doesn't disqualify them from commenting on this subject but I would prefer to have the opinion of a research MD and an exercise physiologist. Testosterone does have an effect on athletic performance....if it didn't then why aren't athletes allowed to "juice" with it. The case they are concerned about is an interesting "outlier" but shouldn't be used to set precedent."

    "The fact that a Yale faculty member (anthropologist?) who "Drawing on my training in cultural anthropology, gender studies, science studies, and empirical bioethics, my work is deeply interdisciplinary, and addresses a range of topics challenging entrenched scientific and medical beliefs about gender, sex" is writing mistakes notions about the performance enhancing aspects of T is worrisome.
    Fact: testosterone is a banned substance in sports. Ask Lance Armstrong why and how he used it for recovery.
    Fact: testosterone is a DEA federally controlled prescription under U.S. medical law because of the risks of abuse.
    So the authors are basically misleading with their intersectionality and gender studies. This is medicine and science. How to use it is appropriate for discussion"

    "I respectfully disagree and want to point out that there have been many other articles - in the Times as well - that support the science that testosterone is a key factor in muscle growth, stamina, etc. Studies have also shown that female runners with more testosterone have a distinct advantage in the events that Ms. Semenya runs. Testosterone levels are and always will be a key differentiation point between men and women, especially in athletics. Fact - men have more testosterone. Fact - the fastest women in the world in the 400 meters and 800 meters run times that are SLOWER than the officially recorded times of approximately 10,000 men running the same event. There are very good reasons why sports separate men and women, and testosterone is one of them. It is unfortunate that Ms. Semenya will have to conform to standards that will always be ripe for dissection and criticism, and that some will always see this as discriminatory against her. She is who is she and that is not her fault. But this is not a case where the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."

    I really like this one, use the example for future arguments:
    "These two doctors don't have a single science degree between them (not even an undergraduate one, as far as I was able to check), not to mention an MD. Their argument is appropriately confused, and is nothing but an attempt to muddle the water. First they do so when they argue that testosterone levels don't matter that much because different levels have been observed in men competing in different sports... But this is a straw man argument. No one has argued that the hormone is central to all sports equally. In fact, the very ruling they attack is very narrow and applies only to track and field disciplines of a certain length. The authors then try to muddle the water again when they bring up the fact that testosterone is not exclusively a male hormone. But in order to be a defining sex characteristic it doesn't need to be an exclusively male one - it is sufficient that it appears in dramatically different concentrations in men and women. What they say is like arguing that there is no link between smoking and lung cancer just because occasionally a non-smoker will get the disease. In sum, this piece is typical of the left's war on science. While the right's war on science focuses on global warming, the left's war on science focuses on biological sex differences."

    Replies: @dr kill, @res, @Buffalo Joe, @Unladen Swallow, @guest

    Thanks! That summary saved me a good deal of time and a click through to the NYT.

  79. @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    I happen to dwell in the Current Year military, where this sort of tripe has informed policy for decades. Thank you (don’t) come again troll.

  80. @Jonathan Mason
    Women's sports have always been like this. The Eastern Europeans monopolized Olympic events for decades by using steroids and I remember as long ago as the 70's remembering complaints that some of the Eastern European women had "penises" or enlarged clitoris's and were more like men.

    The difference in the modern era is that Olympic success has become the key to riches through sponsorship, advertising contracts, and speaking fees, etc. and so people will go to extraordinary lengths to seek Olympic success including all kinds of cheating.

    Caster Semenya is an unfortunate person, having been born with undescended testicles and presumably no penis, so she was thought to be a girl when she was young, but medical science and biological knowledge has advanced in leaps and bounds in the modern era and tests exist to measure testosterone levels and so on that were not available before.

    Of course, to win an Olympic gold medal an athlete almost has to be some kind of freak of nature, so that comes with the territory, but now that the wizard behind the curtain of women's sports has been thoroughly revealed, maybe the time has come to drop the curtain on the farce of women's track and field events altogether

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Autochthon

    Drop the curtain? As in, end women’s track and field? Why? Women participated in sports/games for exercise and entertainment going all the way back to Rome and Sparta….it’s on mosaics and frescos.

    Any man who thinks women shouldn’t compete just because they will never measure up to the men or to the men masquerading as women is something of a sore loser. I’ve never met a man who did sports on a decent level who also mocked women’s sports. It’s always the dudes who were never good enough to compete that get into that line of thinking. Maybe they are still jealous that they didn’t make the varsity squad in high school sport x? The dude then thinks to themselves, well I might have been one of the stars of the girls squad, so why is anyone giving these women attention over me? Very sore loser thinking.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @S. Anonyia


    Any man who thinks women shouldn’t compete just because they will never measure up to the men or to the men masquerading as women is something of a sore loser. I’ve never met a man who did sports on a decent level who also mocked women’s sports.
     
    I have no objection to women participating in sports. My two daughters were both playing soccer this morning in mixed teams.

    However women's track and field loses all appeal as a televised spectacle if it is dominated by men who are competing as women because they qualify on some kind of technicality that makes them unable to compete with men.

    The women's 100 meter world record has been held for many years by the late Flo-Jo who was strongly suspected of steroid use and drugs including testosterone and human growth hormone before she died in her sleep from a seizure.

    I don't know if the rumors are true, but you wouldn't want her to get you in a headlock with those thighs.

    https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1205/title-ix-top-40-athletes/images/florence-Griffith-Joyner.jpg

    Replies: @Pericles, @Unladen Swallow, @james wilson, @Steve Sailer

    , @Ola
    @S. Anonyia

    I love women’s track and field. Hard-working, healthy and athletic women who will provide you with hard-working, healthy, athletic and very attractive sons (the daughters will probably look way better than average too).

    On top international level there will be some freaks skewing the odds, but on national and local level in Sweden, I'd prefer T&F girls to almost all other girls.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  81. @ic1000
    Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn't easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple -- discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic's page on testosterone was the first search result, so I'll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    ("Reference Values" means "the normal range for the people in question".)
    ("Bioavailable" as well as "total" testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis' and Jordan-Young's essay. Alas, that's most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.
     
    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women's bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as "earliest" researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    "The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Corvinus, @Keypusher, @S. Anonyia, @res, @International Jew, @Buzz Mohawk, @Abe, @guest, @Hypnotoad666

    Yes, they give deliberate snippets of information to paint a false picture. They claim that in “6 of 11” running events women with lower testosterone won the race…notice that they don’t specify which running events lower testosterone isn’t a handicap. No doubt the marathon, 10k and 5k, where light weight and lung capacity is more beneficial than anything else, accounted for at least 3 of these 6 events. Also possibly the half marathon if they tested for that, and the 3000 meter race. I really doubt the 400,800 or 1500, which are all about power and also happen to be Caster’s races, were among those where the lower T women won. Also they don’t specify how much lower or what these runners’ levels were to begin with…probably were all within a very tight range compared to Caster’s outlier.

  82. res says:
    @ic1000
    Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn't easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple -- discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic's page on testosterone was the first search result, so I'll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    ("Reference Values" means "the normal range for the people in question".)
    ("Bioavailable" as well as "total" testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis' and Jordan-Young's essay. Alas, that's most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.
     
    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women's bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as "earliest" researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    "The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Corvinus, @Keypusher, @S. Anonyia, @res, @International Jew, @Buzz Mohawk, @Abe, @guest, @Hypnotoad666

    And your normal ranges for females:

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    Are very broad. Here are some thoughts from the abstract of one paper: Serum testosterone levels and reference ranges in reproductive-age women.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15251653

    RESULTS:
    The serum testosterone level in women with no acne, hirsutism, or menstrual dysfunction was 14.1 +/- 0.9 ng/dL (mean +/- standard error of the mean) (95% confidence interval [CI] = 12.4 to 15.8). This group was considered our study reference population. In women with menstrual dysfunction but no acne or hirsutism, the mean testosterone level was significantly higher (17.9 +/- 1.1 ng/dL; 95% CI = 15.7 to 20.0; P<0.002); with mild hirsutism, it further increased (38.4 +/- 5.1 ng/dL; 95% CI = 27.4 to 49.4; P<0.005); and with moderate to severe hirsutism, it was still higher (49.0 +/- 2.3 ng/dL; 95% CI = 44.4 to 53.6; P<0.003). Serum DHEAS levels showed similar patterns. The upper limit (mean + 2 standard deviations) of testosterone in our study reference population was 28 ng/dL, a level that provided a sensitivity of 84% for detecting hyperandrogenemia. The detection of hyperandrogenemia is essentially impossible when the upper limit of the reference range for testosterone from commercial laboratories (95 ng/dL) is used.

    CONCLUSION:
    The testosterone levels reported herein and in the literature for hyperandrogenic women both are within the reference (normal) ranges provided by commercial laboratories. These observations demonstrate why diagnosis of hyperandrogenemia in hyperandrogenic women is difficult when commercial laboratories are used and why this condition is not detected in most affected women. Commercial laboratories should reevaluate the methods used for establishing their reference ranges for serum testosterone.

    So their reference population of “women with no acne, hirsutism, or menstrual dysfunction” had a mean of 14.1 ng/dL and an SD of 7 ng/dL. So the lower end of the men’s range is more than 30 (!!!) standard deviations above the mean for that group.

    I wanted to do the same analysis for all women, but failed to find a good source for the serum testosterone mean/SD in all women after a quick search. Making a quick guess of mean and SD both 20 ng/dL (which is probably in the ballpark given the reference ranges) would make the bottom end of the men’s range 11 (!) SD above the women’s mean.

  83. @Jack D
    @Just Saying

    The IT that Semenya was born with was Y chromosomes and testicles. That's a man, baby!

    Replies: @res

    I’m surprised Truth hasn’t chimed in here.

  84. @Anonymous
    'Caster Semenya'

    Strange how life imitates art.

    'Caster' of course implies castrate - from the Latin meaning 'pure' - in this case purity means removal of the 'pollution ' creating male generative organs, hence those two celestial twins Castor and Pollux.
    (Pollux from the root of 'pollution' but strangely resembling a vulgar related Britishism).

    'Semenya', shades of what the 'castrated' are unable to produce, and of course 'testosterone'.

    Replies: @slumber_j, @Anonymous, @bored identity, @International Jew, @Jonathan Mason

    To bored identity that sounds like a classic example of Custard’s Last Stand.

  85. @Jonathan Mason
    Women's sports have always been like this. The Eastern Europeans monopolized Olympic events for decades by using steroids and I remember as long ago as the 70's remembering complaints that some of the Eastern European women had "penises" or enlarged clitoris's and were more like men.

    The difference in the modern era is that Olympic success has become the key to riches through sponsorship, advertising contracts, and speaking fees, etc. and so people will go to extraordinary lengths to seek Olympic success including all kinds of cheating.

    Caster Semenya is an unfortunate person, having been born with undescended testicles and presumably no penis, so she was thought to be a girl when she was young, but medical science and biological knowledge has advanced in leaps and bounds in the modern era and tests exist to measure testosterone levels and so on that were not available before.

    Of course, to win an Olympic gold medal an athlete almost has to be some kind of freak of nature, so that comes with the territory, but now that the wizard behind the curtain of women's sports has been thoroughly revealed, maybe the time has come to drop the curtain on the farce of women's track and field events altogether

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Autochthon

    I don’t know that one always has to be a freak of nature; much depends upon the sport. Phelps’ long arms, Caster’s hidden testicles, and such can be critical, but many perfectly normal persons with nothing especially freakish but with otherwise healthy genes and who train to be the best athletes they can be do succeed:

    As in many cases, though, part of what goes on here is a variation on the theme of Sailer’s Law of Female Journalism, that, come the revolution, disgusting freaks will be beloved athletes. Playboy was never evil because it objectified women (whatever that means), it was evil because the persons insisting it was evil were being passed over for the kinds of women who graced its pages. Likewise the Olympics are not unfair because put-upon women with birth-defects are being persecuted. Rather, the Olympics are evil because they reinforce that men want to sleep with and women wan tot be friends with Mikaela Shiffrin, not Caster Semanya, and so the one gets all the money from endorsements and adoration and such while the other…just…ewww.

  86. I was at the Coliseum one afternoon and the A’s had activated Ozzie Canseco from the minors to play along side of brother Jose. Everyone knew the story. Ozzie didn’t use the juice, Jose did. They didn’t look like brothers. They looked like different species. Ozzie looked like what you would get if you deflated the Jose Canseco doll. Ozzie looked like someone you might meet at the grocery store. Jose looked kike he was visiting from Mount Olympus.

    If testosterone is so unneeded as these feminist claim why do all body builders use it? Especially the female body builders.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Pat Boyle

    There is no argument that taking anabolic steroids to in effect increase testosterone by women athletes does work and is cheating. Athletes with naturally elevated levels of testosterone would normally be OK. They novelty here is they are saying she does not have a right to her natural testosterone levels because they stem from an XY (genetically male) body. She is genetically male, but suffered a developmental disorder. The authorities now realise that her testosterone level in combination with a basically male body gives her too much of an advantage

    So in a sense it is not all about testosterone, but rather her having a certain lifelong developmental trajectory, which goes along with testosterone. She will still have an advantage against XX women if she brings her testosterone down like they are asking, just not a decisive one. The leading feminists look rather masculine, and I would not be surprised if high testosteronisation was an advantage for a feminist theorist.


    https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2018/07/11/episode-3-alice-dreger-on-sexuality-truth-and-justice/

  87. I was at the Coliseum one afternoon and the A’s had activated Ozzie Canseco from the minors to play along side of brother Jose. Everyone knew the story. Ozzie didn’t use the juice, Jose did. They didn’t look like brothers. They looked like different species. Ozzie looked like what you would get if you deflated the Jose Canseco doll. Ozzie looked like someone you might meet at the grocery store. Jose looked kike he was visiting from Mount Olympus.

  88. Anonymous[288] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their “commentary” seriously?

    No. But you will when they give you a good whipping and force you to transition for your own good.

    Corvina.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Anonymous

    "No. But you will when they give you a good whipping and force you to transition for your own good."

    Don't be projecting your fantasy onto me.

  89. TWS says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning.
     
    Only among the truly ignorant and mentally lazy. Like these two authors.

    It's always wonderful to learn the myriad of important things we need poured to our simple vacant minds by our betters at the Carlos Slim Blog.

    Replies: @TWS, @guest

    So they should let men play on women’s teams because test doesn’t matter. Genders a construct. And all police firefighter and military tests should be returned to former standards. Because sex is mutable.

    If women just put in ten thousand hours playing with baseballs and toy trucks they’ll be able to compete to the boys middle School standards.

    Don’t forget, height is just practice at being tall. States should return to the former height standards for troopers.

  90. “Opinion” page, ha ha. Another myth is that Castrati singers sang so high because they got castrated.
    The history books are full of lies!

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2002/aug/05/classicalmusicandopera.artsfeatures

  91. anonymous[306] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    "Woven folklore into science..." Like the myth that women can do anything a man can do. That's why physical tests for firefighters are skewed so women can join the department. Still waiting for the first woman to be recruited by Nick Saban or Urban Meyers. And as to Caster, nature played a dirty trick on her. I genuinely feel sorry for her. You know, I watch ironworkers working out of man lifts, when years ago we climbed the iron. Is that solely for safety or so women could be employed. I doubt there are too many women who could climb a 30'column with 40 pounds of tools and nuts and bolts hanging from their tool belt. And please don't link me to a video of a sinewy gal climbing a column. Saw it. Too slow, too stressed and we did that all day.

    Replies: @anonymous

    Mr. Joe, I was amazed the first time an ironworker climbed up an upright beam right past me (I was working on a scaffold next to the structure)…just like a monkey. I did not know people could do that.

    The manlifts are probably used both for safety and so women can be employed. We had a lady on the masons crew who was physically unable to make her daily block laying quota…so they made her a foreman. Problem solved, tho with a fair amount of grumbling from the other masons.

  92. It’s telling, but encouraging, that among the comments to the article, the “NYT Picks” are a bunch of blather, but that the top “Reader Picks” all debunk the article, yet none are “NYT Picks”. The top comment is by a bio-physicist, David Konerding, who calls the article (almost) “non-scientific”.

    He used to work at Goolag! I wonder what happened to him there.

    http://www.konerding.com/~dek/

  93. @HammerJack

    ...nor is it the key to athletic performance.
     
    I do hope that Rebecca ("Becky") and "Rainstorm" Katrina realize they're putting another nail in the coffin of women's sports.

    As it is, colleges have to scrape the barrel to find enough cis-gendered females to fill out their Title IX teams. It's going to get harder--much harder--when they have to compete with men.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Neuday, @Forbes

    I think in their twisted minds they think they’re paving the way for female NFL running backs.

  94. @prosa123
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The only reason for the existence of most women’s sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    One could take that a step further and say that there should be basketball leagues and sprinting events limited to white men.

    Replies: @OFWHAP, @Reg Cæsar

    One could take that a step further and say that there should be basketball leagues and sprinting events limited to white men.

    We have that sprinter from Strake Jesuit in Houston, so we’re good now.

  95. Anonymous[257] • Disclaimer says:

    What’s next? “Myth of Protein” by a vegan?

  96. They make fun of you, Caster Semenya,
    But myself, I got nothin’ agin ya.
    Your male organs don’t show,
    So I’m quite sure that no
    One mistakes you for Peter Gozinya.

  97. @Desiderius
    @Corvinus

    No

    Replies: @Corvinus

    LOL, you say that you are about good faith, but you can’t even display it yourself.

    Are you a Jewish woman?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Corvinus

    Not yet. Who knows what the future holds in these gloriously progressive times?

    If you want to talk with the grownups you’ll need to act like a grownup.

    You’ll get good faith when you demonstrate it. Not before.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  98. It [testosterone] is not the “male sex hormone,”

    Here are the first seven words of the Wikipedia article on testosterone:

    Testosterone is the primary male sex hormone…

  99. Katrina Karkazis is a senior visiting fellow at the Global Health Justice Partnership at Yale University. Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard College.

    i.e., they have no particular knowledge of biology nor indeed likely any useful knowledge or experience at all.

  100. @Anonymous
    'Caster Semenya'

    Strange how life imitates art.

    'Caster' of course implies castrate - from the Latin meaning 'pure' - in this case purity means removal of the 'pollution ' creating male generative organs, hence those two celestial twins Castor and Pollux.
    (Pollux from the root of 'pollution' but strangely resembling a vulgar related Britishism).

    'Semenya', shades of what the 'castrated' are unable to produce, and of course 'testosterone'.

    Replies: @slumber_j, @Anonymous, @bored identity, @International Jew, @Jonathan Mason

    ‘Caster’ of course implies castrate – from the Latin meaning ‘pure’ – in this case purity means removal of the ‘pollution‘

    Where did you get that from? According to Wiktionary, “castrate” comes from the Latin word for “to cut”. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/castrate

    • Replies: @JimS
    @International Jew

    From PIE "to cut":
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/castrate#etymonline_v_27773
    "He who excels":
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/Castor#etymonline_v_53244
    Of course, the name in question is more for the wheels on a cart:
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/caster#etymonline_v_34260

  101. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    Except he’s not a woman; he’s a man with malformed genitals. Actual women should not have to compete with him, and he shouldn’t have to alter his body chemistry. The fact that he has low androgen uptake in certain parts of his physiology is not the rest of the world’s problem.

    • Replies: @anon
    @The Anti-Gnostic


    Except he’s not a woman; he’s a man with malformed genitals. Actual women should not have to compete with him, and he shouldn’t have to alter his body chemistry. The fact that he has low androgen uptake in certain parts of his physiology is not the rest of the world’s problem.
     

    exactly

    we don't have to hate or ostracize this person like might have been done in times past but how about let's worry about the 99% being treated fairly instead of the 1% being allowed an unfair advantage

    i suspect this kind of thing has been pushed by jews because they are a tiny minority in every country they inhabit and they have no concern for the majority's rights or interests

  102. I’m surprised no one has mentioned racial differences in hormone levels or finger length as an indication of masculinization. But I guess this is just more evidence that Sailer’s HBD crowd has vacated this particular blog.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @miss marple

    Wtf do racial differences in finger length have to do with an XY “woman” with a birth defect unfairly dominating women’s sport?

    Are you implying Caster’s hormone levels or appearance are in line with typical black women’s? Wrong as rain. Caster is so clearly a man- look at the physique compared to Raevyn Rogers, a black woman who competes against Caster in the 800.

    I bet Rogers is glad Caster and the other hermaphrodites will be leaving for awhile.

  103. @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their “commentary” seriously?

    They’re writing in the New York Times, dumbshit. Do people write op-eds in the Times to not be influential. Is the Times not an influential media outlet? Have you ever written anything for the Times? And clearly the cumulative effect of people like these two shrews is influential given that trans-genderism is now becoming a “normal” thing – a new orthodoxy that we are all supposed to recognize or face serious social consequences.

    And, as usual, you throw around terms like “alt-right” and “normie” which you don’t even understand.

    You are a stupid idiot.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Mr. Anon

    "They’re writing in the New York Times, dumbshit."

    A number of authors have had their work published here. It does not mean that they have the type of clout you think they do to move mountains.

    "Do people write op-eds in the Times to not be influential. Is the Times not an influential media outlet?"

    Outlets have a wide range of people who publish their work. It's called a market place for ideas. Some of those pieces are meant to sate the appetite for certain groups.

    "And clearly the cumulative effect of people like these two shrews is influential given that trans-genderism is now becoming a “normal” thing"

    Not necessarily what they specifically wrote about.

    Replies: @Alden, @Alfa158

  104. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    I’m of the opinion ‘if you’re born with it, it’s fair’ – I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she’s a woman.

    “She” may be reminiscent of a woman, but is not one,

    Semenya has a Y-chromosome, and a penis (plus defective testicles). “She” is a man suffering from a birth defect.

  105. @ic1000
    Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn't easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple -- discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic's page on testosterone was the first search result, so I'll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    ("Reference Values" means "the normal range for the people in question".)
    ("Bioavailable" as well as "total" testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis' and Jordan-Young's essay. Alas, that's most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.
     
    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women's bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as "earliest" researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    "The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Corvinus, @Keypusher, @S. Anonyia, @res, @International Jew, @Buzz Mohawk, @Abe, @guest, @Hypnotoad666

    One of their techniques is simple — discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers.

    We see this rhetorical technique everywhere:

    “Blacks aren’t violent; there are lots of white murderers.”

    “Muslims make fine immigrants. The vast majority are not terrorists.”

    “Immigrants are what makes America great: Albert Einstein, John von Neumann, Werner von Braun…”

    • Agree: GermanReader2
    • Replies: @L Woods
    @International Jew

    Innumeracy is the stock and trade of self-identified smart people.

  106. Sean says:
    @Pat Boyle
    I was at the Coliseum one afternoon and the A's had activated Ozzie Canseco from the minors to play along side of brother Jose. Everyone knew the story. Ozzie didn't use the juice, Jose did. They didn't look like brothers. They looked like different species. Ozzie looked like what you would get if you deflated the Jose Canseco doll. Ozzie looked like someone you might meet at the grocery store. Jose looked kike he was visiting from Mount Olympus.

    If testosterone is so unneeded as these feminist claim why do all body builders use it? Especially the female body builders.

    Replies: @Sean

    There is no argument that taking anabolic steroids to in effect increase testosterone by women athletes does work and is cheating. Athletes with naturally elevated levels of testosterone would normally be OK. They novelty here is they are saying she does not have a right to her natural testosterone levels because they stem from an XY (genetically male) body. She is genetically male, but suffered a developmental disorder. The authorities now realise that her testosterone level in combination with a basically male body gives her too much of an advantage

    So in a sense it is not all about testosterone, but rather her having a certain lifelong developmental trajectory, which goes along with testosterone. She will still have an advantage against XX women if she brings her testosterone down like they are asking, just not a decisive one. The leading feminists look rather masculine, and I would not be surprised if high testosteronisation was an advantage for a feminist theorist.

    https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2018/07/11/episode-3-alice-dreger-on-sexuality-truth-and-justice/

  107. @BB753
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Gender is solely a grammatical construct. If you want to say to say that a man looks like a woman, or looks ambiguous, there's a word for it: epicene. Look it up!
    Please leave gender alone! It belongs to linguistics.

    Replies: @anonymous, @YetAnotherAnon, @Mr. Anon

    Gender is solely a grammatical construct.

    …………………………………………………………….

    Please leave gender alone! It belongs to linguistics.

    Amen. The word is “sex”. It is a biological category and it is real. It is the word people should use when discussing the sexes.

    The employ of “gender” by the PoMo deviancy-normalizing crowd is perhaps down to so many of them coming from the Modern Languages area.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Mr. Anon

    I think that the substitution of the grammatical word gender for actual sex of humans by the early late 60’s feminazis was squeamish Puritanism. They just didn’t want to say sex as it has too many connotations of sexual activity.

    I’ve noticed sex isn’t often used on forms. Just little boxes in front of male female.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  108. @International Jew
    @ic1000


    One of their techniques is simple — discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers.
     
    We see this rhetorical technique everywhere:

    "Blacks aren't violent; there are lots of white murderers."

    "Muslims make fine immigrants. The vast majority are not terrorists."

    "Immigrants are what makes America great: Albert Einstein, John von Neumann, Werner von Braun..."

    Replies: @L Woods

    Innumeracy is the stock and trade of self-identified smart people.

  109. @Corvinus
    @Desiderius

    LOL, you say that you are about good faith, but you can't even display it yourself.

    Are you a Jewish woman?

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Not yet. Who knows what the future holds in these gloriously progressive times?

    If you want to talk with the grownups you’ll need to act like a grownup.

    You’ll get good faith when you demonstrate it. Not before.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Desiderius

    "If you want to talk with the grownups you’ll need to act like a grownup. You’ll get good faith when you demonstrate it. Not before."

    Again, it's easier for you to simply make that statement without having to substantially address the points I made. I am a grown up. I act in good faith.

    It's just apparently you are too stubborn to move the conversation needle forward, especially when defending your own statements or argument.

  110. @res
    @SFG


    Is she a woman…I don’t know. She’s got a Y chromosome and testes, it’s just that her testosterone receptors don’t work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I’d just say ‘sort of’.
     
    The thing that is ironic about this (in particular the things from the idiots Steve quotes) is that the reason she can present as female is due to her testosterone receptors not working. Thus showing the importance of testosterone to creating a fully functional man. But it does mean (in theory at least) that she should be relatively insensitive to testosterone, making those high levels less significant than they seem. I am not sure how accurate that theory is though. Partial insensitivity is possible--I don't know if differential insensitivity (e.g. muscle vs. other tissue) is.

    This article seemed useful:
    https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/caster-semenya-does-limiting-testosterone-in-female-athletes-make-sport-fairer/

    Despite a lack of detail of her medical record, it seems most likely that Semenya has Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS). A developing foetus with AIS, although being genetically male with XY chromosomes and testes, does not respond to the male testosterone levels because of a defect in the testosterone receptor gene. As a result, the infant is female at birth and develops as a normal girl and then woman.
     
    That "despite a lack of detail" bit is very interesting. I wonder what is really going on. Seems like something that would be important to know here.

    Professor Malcolm Ferguson-Smith, of the Cambridge Resource Centre for Comparative Genomics, and colleagues tested 3,387 women athletes at the Atlanta Olympic Games and found eight with XY sex chromosomes, of whom seven had AIS. Their heights were in the normal male range. Six of them had already had a gonadectomy and despite this were able to reach Olympic standard. In other words, virtually complete lack of testosterone did not appear to affect their athletic performance.

     

    I hadn't heard that, and the followup is also interesting:

    In a subsequent paper, Ferguson-Smith found that genes on the Y chromosome, especially those genes associated with height in the male range, are the most likely explanation for the high number of XY women with AIS and other DSDs in elite sport, rather than testosterone levels.
     
    That linked article still comes up with a goodthinker conclusion, but is at least thoughtful and gives useful information.

    This page gives a pretty good layman's overview of the multiple processes which can result in an "XY woman."
    https://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask352

    Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter

    As a result, the infant is female at birth and develops as a normal girl and then woman.

    I seem to remember that normal females have a uterus and ovaries, and after menarche, they menstruate until menopause.

    I would not call an individual who lacks those characteristics a normal female.

    And, given an individual who has X and Y chromosomes and has AIS, I would call them an abnormal male.

    • Agree: Alden, GermanReader2
  111. @ic1000
    Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn't easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple -- discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic's page on testosterone was the first search result, so I'll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    ("Reference Values" means "the normal range for the people in question".)
    ("Bioavailable" as well as "total" testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis' and Jordan-Young's essay. Alas, that's most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.
     
    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women's bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as "earliest" researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    "The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Corvinus, @Keypusher, @S. Anonyia, @res, @International Jew, @Buzz Mohawk, @Abe, @guest, @Hypnotoad666

    Indeed they are being disingenuous, because they know better, as you say.

    Not only do those numbers not overlap, they are a magnitude apart.

    “Quantity has a quality all its own.”

  112. @SFG
    @Just Saying

    Yeah, I can't really blame Semenya, she's just competing with the body God gave her. And if you've got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you're not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman...I don't know. She's got a Y chromosome and testes, it's just that her testosterone receptors don't work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I'd just say 'sort of'.

    Replies: @Ola, @Ola, @Desiderius, @stillCARealist, @anon, @res, @BB753, @TWS, @guest

    She’s more than a woman! Genius falsetto. R. I. P. Barry Gibb.

    • Replies: @Deckin
    @BB753

    Barry Gibb is still very much alive, FWIW; the rest of the Bee Gees (plus little brother Andy): not so much.

    Replies: @BB753

  113. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:

    “Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their “commentary” seriously?”

    It was published in the most prestigious newspaper in the world for American normies. That alone lends this pseudoscience credibility.

    “Are you a Jewish woman?”

    Please stop approving Corvinus’s comments. He ruins every thread he posts in. It’s a serious turn off for me to even want to check your posts anymore. Pretty much the only Unz comments I check in on are the authors who either don’t approve his comments or threads where he’s likely to get embarrassed and run off, so he avoids them. Seriously. Enough. He’s the worst, most embarrassingly incompetent person on this whole site and that says quite a bit.

    • Replies: @Len
    @Anon

    Easy to overlook, but note the 'commenters to ignore' bucket preceding the comments section. Easy comment 'curation'. Add commenter id once, applies to all posts.

  114. @Desiderius
    @Corvinus

    Not yet. Who knows what the future holds in these gloriously progressive times?

    If you want to talk with the grownups you’ll need to act like a grownup.

    You’ll get good faith when you demonstrate it. Not before.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “If you want to talk with the grownups you’ll need to act like a grownup. You’ll get good faith when you demonstrate it. Not before.”

    Again, it’s easier for you to simply make that statement without having to substantially address the points I made. I am a grown up. I act in good faith.

    It’s just apparently you are too stubborn to move the conversation needle forward, especially when defending your own statements or argument.

    • Troll: ic1000, YetAnotherAnon
  115. @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    Nice point. This organ really does love to hoover up the obscure writings of unknowns and make them sound like the tidal wave of the future.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @obwandiyag


    Nice point. This organ really does love to hoover up the obscure writings of unknowns and make them sound like the tidal wave of the future.
     
    Especially when the unknown's writings are published in some obscure underground publication like........................The New York Times. Who'd even ever heard of it before? I know I hadn't.
    , @guest
    @obwandiyag

    But it is the future, isn't it? These nobodies cook up nonsense in universities and eventually it gets churned out by media outlets and last in line are the brains of drooling idiots stuffing seeds in soil by hand like me who may disagree but am compelled to take it as just another point of view to consider rather than rounding up a mob to burn them at the stake.

  116. @YetAnotherAnon
    I think the myth of testosterone affecting ANYTHING has already been conclusively demolished by Cordela Fine in Testosterone Rex, and her book will become the 'Mismeasure of Man' de nos jours.

    Incidentally the link to the Caster Samenya story is long gone, but it can be found on Wayback.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160628092447/http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/semenya-has-no-womb-or-ovaries/story-e6frexni-1225771672245

    "World athletics is in crisis over the gender of Caster Semenya after tests revealed the South African world champion has no womb or ovaries.

    The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) is ready to disqualify Semenya from future events and advise her to have immediate surgery because her condition carries grave health risks. They have also not ruled out stripping Semenya of her 800m world championships gold medal.

    Tests conducted during the world athletics championships in Berlin last month, where Semenya's gender became the subject of heated debate following her victory in the 800m, revealed evidence she is a hermaphrodite, someone with both male and female sexual characteristics.

    Semenya, 18, has three times the amount of testosterone that a "normal'' female would have. According to a source closely involved with the Semenya examinations IAAF testing, which included various scans, has revealed she has internal testes - the male sexual organs which produce testosterone."
     
    The story is a sad example of how journalists can't tell the difference between "sex" and "gender" any more, or alternatively are too cowed to use the words correctly. Ms Semenya obviously 'presents' as female, for athletic purposes at any rate. Gender, unlike sex, is arguably a social construct.

    Replies: @BB753, @Desiderius, @Daniel H, @Alden, @Grace Jones

    Gender, unlike sex, is arguably a social construct.

    Please, stop with this nonsense. This blog is a clear thinking zone. Gender is sex, sex is gender. The meanings are identical. And what is with this rhetorical formulation “presents”. So and so, presents s a woman. Nonsense. Nonsense.

    • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Daniel H

    "Please, stop with this nonsense. This blog is a clear thinking zone. Gender is sex, sex is gender. The meanings are identical."

    Are you being sarcastic or were you just educated in the last 25 years i.e. lied to and indoctrinated?

    Quick history lesson

    back in the mists of time, but not very far back, say 1990 or even 2000, there were two very useful nouns

    "Sex" in both biology and in everyday life meant your biological sex, for 99.9%+ of people defined at birth when the nurse held you up and said "It's a ***!"
    (it also meant the thing which perpetuates the species and nearly everyone likes but, within living memory, few of us liked to write or talk about)
    When you filled in a form, you filled in "name", "date of birth" and "sex" (the joke was that people would enter 'yes please'). Even in these woke days, the UK passport says 'Sex', and as far as I know it has to be M or F.


    "Gender" was mainly used in language teaching and linguistics. Some languages, like English, have neutral nouns - you say "the woman" and "the man" - but other languages, like German and most Romance languages, have gendered nouns "die Frau", "der Mann" and "das Haus" for feminine, masculine and neuter nouns. Look at a German or French dictionary and every noun will have its gender.
    Even English is a bit gendered, in that ships, for example, are considered female ("may God bless her and all who sail in her" is recited at the launch), where in German a ship is neuter ("das Schiff"). As you can see, genders in German and other languages are social constructs. Why should a table be masculine but a wall feminine? Why's a shower of rain masculine but a bathroom shower feminine?

    And now we come to the reason "sex" and "gender" are so conjoined now that you and a lot of others think they're identical - Simone De Beauvoir, in The Second Sex (1949). Notice she didn't say gender.


    "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman. No biological, psychological, or economic destiny defines the figure that the human female acquires in society; it is civilization as a whole that develops this product, intermediate between female and eunuch, which one calls feminine. Only the mediation of another can establish an individual as an Other. In so far as he exists for himself, the child would not be able to understand himself as sexually differentiated. In girls as in boys the body is first of all the radiation of a subjectivity, the instrument that accomplishes the comprehension of the world: it is through the eyes, the hands, and not through the sexual parts that children apprehend the universe."

     

    (Ms Beauvoir didn't actually have any kids, as any parent of boys and girls might tell. Small children, given half a chance, are pretty quick at differentiating biological boys from biological girls.)

    From this single feminist insight/delusion sprung the blank-slate idea, built on in a thousand theses and preached in ten thousand sociology, critical theory and women's studies seminars, that our sexual differentiation is a product of our conditioning, not of our genes, and that what used to be called "sex roles" are in fact "gender roles"- i.e., like genders in language, socially constructed.

    The pushing of "gender" to describe what was previously known as "sex" was deliberate, the original intention being to reinforce the idea that our roles are socially* not biologically defined.

    They've been successful, too successful, such that in the last 25 years they've made the two terms identical and a whole bunch of journalists, plus Daniel H, think that they ARE identical.

    (*you have to read feminists to believe the delusions - for example Julie Bindel , prominent UK radfem lesbian, will publicly argue that childless women, desperately trying to conceive, are only unhappy because they've internalised their societal conditioning which apparently tells them they ought to have babies).

    Lots of assertion, a bit of evidence - "sex" vs "gender", 1880 to 2000, Google Ngrams. Hope it shows properly because the edit function seems to come and go these days.


    http://magaimg.net/img/7wau.jpg

    Note

    1) both terms didn't get much use up to 1910. "Gender" was pretty much confined to language textbooks.
    2) "Sex" started climbing 1910-30, by 1930 many people knew what "sex appeal" or "It" was. Then a plateau until 1960. "Gender" still flatlining.
    3) come the mid-60s and "sex" - in the copulatory sense - started a huge rise through the 70s up to 1980. "Gender" took off from its very low base in the mid-70s - around the time Women's Studies and feminist ideas were spreading in academia - and continued climbing after "sex" finally flatlined in 1990, so that by 2000, "gender" got nearly as many mentions as "sex'" whereas in most of the previous 120 years it had an order of magnitude fewer references.

    A pity Ngrams stops at 2000, as I wouldn't be surprised if "gender" is actually ahead now.
  117. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Tono Bungay

    Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.

    Indeed, the reductio ad absurdum is for there to be no division, for men and women to compete together. But is this actually absurd? The only reason for the existence of most women's sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    There are some events for which women may naturally be better suited, such that women might continue to come out at the top. Women's type gymnastics (particularly the balance beam -- ouch!) very-long-distance swimming, and the graceful figure skating that women do are examples.

    It might be a good idea to just have women compete against men in all sporting events. It might help re-educate them and the Western World that men and women are different.

    Replies: @prosa123, @Jonathan Mason, @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.

    Like Bruce Jenner, then. I would agree if that is the case, then the doll is a guy.

    But what of Semenya’s anatomy? I assume that he/she does not have a penis, but how is his/her anatomy configured. Where is his/her urethra situated if there is no penis? Does he/she also have a vagina? Does he/she have a uterus? Can he/she reproduce?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jonathan Mason

    Last time I checked I had nipples. I just checked again. Still there. Am I a woman?

    All seriousness aside, the only thing we know is that his balls are up inside his body. He has testicles, not ovaries, therefore he most definitely does not produce eggs and cannot have babies.

    This is ridiculous.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

  118. @HammerJack

    ...nor is it the key to athletic performance.
     
    I do hope that Rebecca ("Becky") and "Rainstorm" Katrina realize they're putting another nail in the coffin of women's sports.

    As it is, colleges have to scrape the barrel to find enough cis-gendered females to fill out their Title IX teams. It's going to get harder--much harder--when they have to compete with men.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Neuday, @Forbes

    they’re putting another nail in the coffin of women’s sports.

    There’s an agenda to advance–there are always “unintended” consequences. The greater good and all that. Progress, so we’re told. You’ll just have to adjust to the new reality being created by those smarter than us proles…

    colleges have to scrape the barrel to find enough cis-gendered females to fill out their Title IX teams.

    Not a bug. Title IX teams will be filled out with trans-women. Barrel-scraping problem solved.

  119. @obwandiyag
    @Corvinus

    Nice point. This organ really does love to hoover up the obscure writings of unknowns and make them sound like the tidal wave of the future.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @guest

    Nice point. This organ really does love to hoover up the obscure writings of unknowns and make them sound like the tidal wave of the future.

    Especially when the unknown’s writings are published in some obscure underground publication like……………………The New York Times. Who’d even ever heard of it before? I know I hadn’t.

  120. @Anonymous
    'Caster Semenya'

    Strange how life imitates art.

    'Caster' of course implies castrate - from the Latin meaning 'pure' - in this case purity means removal of the 'pollution ' creating male generative organs, hence those two celestial twins Castor and Pollux.
    (Pollux from the root of 'pollution' but strangely resembling a vulgar related Britishism).

    'Semenya', shades of what the 'castrated' are unable to produce, and of course 'testosterone'.

    Replies: @slumber_j, @Anonymous, @bored identity, @International Jew, @Jonathan Mason

    ‘Caster’ of course implies castrate – from the Latin meaning ‘pure’

    Seems a bit dubious to me. The Latin word for a gelding is sectarius, and the Latin words for cut usually have the sect or cis roots. The Spanish word for cut is cortar.

    Caster, as a name, is more likely to be associated with Roman place names like Doncaster, England, a military camp on the river Don, or Lancaster a camp on the river Lune. I believe the name Castile has similar associations, and, of course, castle.

    Caster sugar is a very finely ground sugar, presumably fine enough to be sprinkled using a sugar castor, a device use to cast sugar rather like casting seed on fertile ground, not that Semenya is likely to be doing that.

    Sugar castor.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Jonathan Mason

    Maybe the family was just trying for a clever anagram: A Secret Man, Yes

    Hey, who knows? People have done stranger things and Africans seem to have kind of a troll-ish sense of humor.

    Also typically African, Caster is probably a lot of people's meal tickets back home.

  121. @Jonathan Mason
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.
     
    Like Bruce Jenner, then. I would agree if that is the case, then the doll is a guy.

    But what of Semenya's anatomy? I assume that he/she does not have a penis, but how is his/her anatomy configured. Where is his/her urethra situated if there is no penis? Does he/she also have a vagina? Does he/she have a uterus? Can he/she reproduce?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    Last time I checked I had nipples. I just checked again. Still there. Am I a woman?

    All seriousness aside, the only thing we know is that his balls are up inside his body. He has testicles, not ovaries, therefore he most definitely does not produce eggs and cannot have babies.

    This is ridiculous.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Semenya, according to old articles, has no ovaries or uterus. This means there's no eggs or menstruation. Whatever this person is, it's not a woman.

  122. @BB753
    @SFG

    She's more than a woman! Genius falsetto. R. I. P. Barry Gibb.

    https://youtu.be/G2tvp5j-E3Q

    Replies: @Deckin

    Barry Gibb is still very much alive, FWIW; the rest of the Bee Gees (plus little brother Andy): not so much.

    • Replies: @BB753
    @Deckin

    Damn! All died of cancer, right?

    Replies: @HammerJack

  123. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jonathan Mason

    Last time I checked I had nipples. I just checked again. Still there. Am I a woman?

    All seriousness aside, the only thing we know is that his balls are up inside his body. He has testicles, not ovaries, therefore he most definitely does not produce eggs and cannot have babies.

    This is ridiculous.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

    Semenya, according to old articles, has no ovaries or uterus. This means there’s no eggs or menstruation. Whatever this person is, it’s not a woman.

  124. @SFG
    @Just Saying

    Yeah, I can't really blame Semenya, she's just competing with the body God gave her. And if you've got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you're not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman...I don't know. She's got a Y chromosome and testes, it's just that her testosterone receptors don't work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I'd just say 'sort of'.

    Replies: @Ola, @Ola, @Desiderius, @stillCARealist, @anon, @res, @BB753, @TWS, @guest

    No not a woman not open to debate. If he were competing against men it wouldn’t matter.

  125. @Corvinus
    @Desiderius

    "Just white policy-makers and censors, so we’re all good."

    Like who? How do you know for certain? What evidence do you have that these groups are definitively influenced by those two womyn? Be specific.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @TWS

    If you can’t entertain like the duck, get to the back of the bus.

  126. @Kent Nationalist
    So then why do 'transitioning' men take testosterone suppressants?

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Kent, try to stay with the narrative or they will call you some foul name.

  127. @miss marple
    I'm surprised no one has mentioned racial differences in hormone levels or finger length as an indication of masculinization. But I guess this is just more evidence that Sailer's HBD crowd has vacated this particular blog.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

    Wtf do racial differences in finger length have to do with an XY “woman” with a birth defect unfairly dominating women’s sport?

    Are you implying Caster’s hormone levels or appearance are in line with typical black women’s? Wrong as rain. Caster is so clearly a man- look at the physique compared to Raevyn Rogers, a black woman who competes against Caster in the 800.

    I bet Rogers is glad Caster and the other hermaphrodites will be leaving for awhile.

  128. @Bitfu
    How much artistry and achievement is the result of guys who just want to get laid? [Gay or straight.] Quite a bit, I'd say.
    Of course, there are many exceptions, but the rule still holds. Most creativity and achievement comes from younger men who happen to be at peak-testosterone. Additionally, said creativity & achievement tends to wane as testosterone decreases. Maybe it's a coincidence, but common sense suggests it's not.

    I'm not saying testosterone is the only driver. And of course, there are exceptions from women and older men. But, for whatever reason, they are exceptions.

    Maybe this explains why so little in the way of art and achievement seems to come out of the of Arab world these days. Islam has a retrograde relationship with women, and so there's little to be gained from channeling testosterone in a socially advantageous.

    Reductive and unfalsifiable stuff, I know.

    Replies: @L Woods

    Islam has a retrograde relationship with women

    You seem to be confused.

  129. I’ve read a few articles from the msm on caster semenya and none of them admit that “she” is xy or that she has testes.

    I find their efforts to obfuscate these facts go further than the usual manipulation.

    Semenya is a man. It’s actually that simple. She is not even an intersex person because she has no apparent secondary sexual traits of women. This person was born an xy male, presumably with undescended testes. Chances are high that she was born with some kind of a malformed penis. As for what happened to it, they might have removed it as a baby or it might just be very small.

    She does not have androgen insensitivity, hence her voice and body type. This is simply a man with undescended testes.

    But the media spins crazy circles around this trying to make this about a woman who is being forced to take drugs because her natural testosterone levels are too high.

    Remarkable that social justice warriors have enough clout to convince major organizations that people with Y chromosomes can be born female.

    Twitter is obsessed with the fact that a woman runner who complained about semenya is white. To them this is a story of the world taking sides with a white cisgendered woman over a black gay woman. And to Twitter, they believe that pointing out that semenya looks and sounds like a man is forcing women to conform to a narrow gender expectation.

    For sjws, The fight comes down to prizing white femininity over black women who are told they look outside gender norms. Black women hate the idea that they are considered more masculine than others. But here they are acting as though real black women could ever be as masculine looking as blacks with Y chromosomes.

    Utter insanity. I’ve been repulsed by Serena Williams all my life, but she looks one thousand times as feminine as semenya.

    • Replies: @Ola
    @Spangel

    Well-put! Utter insanity indeed. Swedish media is just as crazy and most Swedish track coaches are posturing cretins who just repeat the media lies to look enlightened and hip with the times.

    (I do, however, not find Serena Williams repulsive. I don't find her attractive but I can see how she might appeal to some guys and I agree that she looks one thousand times as feminine as Semenya.)

  130. @Anonymous
    @Corvinus


    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their “commentary” seriously?
     
    No. But you will when they give you a good whipping and force you to transition for your own good.

    Corvina.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “No. But you will when they give you a good whipping and force you to transition for your own good.”

    Don’t be projecting your fantasy onto me.

  131. It’s like the z man said, you better hope they’re trolling us because if they really believe this horse shit we’re all in for it. Your doctor or your dentist mucking around in your mouth is really this stupid? We’re doomed

  132. @S. Anonyia
    @Jonathan Mason

    Drop the curtain? As in, end women’s track and field? Why? Women participated in sports/games for exercise and entertainment going all the way back to Rome and Sparta....it’s on mosaics and frescos.

    Any man who thinks women shouldn’t compete just because they will never measure up to the men or to the men masquerading as women is something of a sore loser. I’ve never met a man who did sports on a decent level who also mocked women’s sports. It’s always the dudes who were never good enough to compete that get into that line of thinking. Maybe they are still jealous that they didn’t make the varsity squad in high school sport x? The dude then thinks to themselves, well I might have been one of the stars of the girls squad, so why is anyone giving these women attention over me? Very sore loser thinking.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @Ola

    Any man who thinks women shouldn’t compete just because they will never measure up to the men or to the men masquerading as women is something of a sore loser. I’ve never met a man who did sports on a decent level who also mocked women’s sports.

    I have no objection to women participating in sports. My two daughters were both playing soccer this morning in mixed teams.

    However women’s track and field loses all appeal as a televised spectacle if it is dominated by men who are competing as women because they qualify on some kind of technicality that makes them unable to compete with men.

    The women’s 100 meter world record has been held for many years by the late Flo-Jo who was strongly suspected of steroid use and drugs including testosterone and human growth hormone before she died in her sleep from a seizure.

    I don’t know if the rumors are true, but you wouldn’t want her to get you in a headlock with those thighs.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Jonathan Mason


    The women’s 100 meter world record has been held for many years by the late Flo-Jo who was strongly suspected of steroid use and drugs including testosterone and human growth hormone before she died in her sleep from a seizure.

     

    BALCO ...
    , @Unladen Swallow
    @Jonathan Mason

    I remember seeing a head on photo of her in the 1988 US Olympic Trials where you could see the other competitors. She looked very different physically from all the other female sprinters, which is to say she looked way more muscular. 31 years on and no one has even gotten close to her times in either the 100m or the 200m.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    , @james wilson
    @Jonathan Mason

    They were all using. All eight finalist in one world championship race in which she appeared had braces. HGH causes growth in more than just muscle, and teeth are eventually left separated.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Jonathan Mason

    I saw Flo-Jo win the silver medal at the L.A. Coliseum in the 1984 Olympics when she was much more slender. She lost to a suddenly very fast NFL player's wife whose biceps were twice the diameter of hers. The next big race was the 1987 World Championship. Flo-Jo came in second to a muscular East German. She was likely the fastest clean 200m woman in the world, but she was still working in the nail salon. (Flo-Jo was really good at creative nail designs.) So in the fall of 1987 she gave Ben Johnson a call ...

  133. @Mr. Anon
    @Corvinus


    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their “commentary” seriously?
     
    They're writing in the New York Times, dumbshit. Do people write op-eds in the Times to not be influential. Is the Times not an influential media outlet? Have you ever written anything for the Times? And clearly the cumulative effect of people like these two shrews is influential given that trans-genderism is now becoming a "normal" thing - a new orthodoxy that we are all supposed to recognize or face serious social consequences.

    And, as usual, you throw around terms like "alt-right" and "normie" which you don't even understand.

    You are a stupid idiot.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “They’re writing in the New York Times, dumbshit.”

    A number of authors have had their work published here. It does not mean that they have the type of clout you think they do to move mountains.

    “Do people write op-eds in the Times to not be influential. Is the Times not an influential media outlet?”

    Outlets have a wide range of people who publish their work. It’s called a market place for ideas. Some of those pieces are meant to sate the appetite for certain groups.

    “And clearly the cumulative effect of people like these two shrews is influential given that trans-genderism is now becoming a “normal” thing”

    Not necessarily what they specifically wrote about.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Corvinus

    As long as the liberals focus on trans gender they aren’t lowering the age of consent to 12 then 10 then 8 then 6 then 4.

    I believe that’s their ultimate goal.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Alfa158
    @Corvinus

    It’s not necessarily what they specifically wrote about, but it is what they specifically wrote about.

  134. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/divanificent/status/1123564195205787649

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Alfa158, @Jack D, @guest, @Forbes, @El Dato

    Biological Essentialism

    What did she mean by this?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Kent Nationalist

    Biological Essentialism is the racist, sexist, evil notion that humans are not entirely socially constructed creatures like cartoon characters but rather that there are essential biological differences between the races and sexes which influence outcomes.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Kent Nationalist


    What did she mean by this?
     
    What did she mean by any of it?
  135. @YetAnotherAnon
    I think the myth of testosterone affecting ANYTHING has already been conclusively demolished by Cordela Fine in Testosterone Rex, and her book will become the 'Mismeasure of Man' de nos jours.

    Incidentally the link to the Caster Samenya story is long gone, but it can be found on Wayback.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160628092447/http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/semenya-has-no-womb-or-ovaries/story-e6frexni-1225771672245

    "World athletics is in crisis over the gender of Caster Semenya after tests revealed the South African world champion has no womb or ovaries.

    The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) is ready to disqualify Semenya from future events and advise her to have immediate surgery because her condition carries grave health risks. They have also not ruled out stripping Semenya of her 800m world championships gold medal.

    Tests conducted during the world athletics championships in Berlin last month, where Semenya's gender became the subject of heated debate following her victory in the 800m, revealed evidence she is a hermaphrodite, someone with both male and female sexual characteristics.

    Semenya, 18, has three times the amount of testosterone that a "normal'' female would have. According to a source closely involved with the Semenya examinations IAAF testing, which included various scans, has revealed she has internal testes - the male sexual organs which produce testosterone."
     
    The story is a sad example of how journalists can't tell the difference between "sex" and "gender" any more, or alternatively are too cowed to use the words correctly. Ms Semenya obviously 'presents' as female, for athletic purposes at any rate. Gender, unlike sex, is arguably a social construct.

    Replies: @BB753, @Desiderius, @Daniel H, @Alden, @Grace Jones

    Gender is a grammatical term in some languages. Sex is male and female.

  136. Thea says:

    If we consider the present conditions, a feeling of sadness flows from the thought that since 1933, the great majority of intellectual leaders, especially the university professors, without any hesitation, dedicated themselves to the new politicsical direction and pushed aside everything they previously advocated and taught. Almost all gave up their own will, their own thinking, and idolized, in a sycophantic, unprincipled way, what had been prescribed to them by the party. What can you say, as a simple man, about scholars and scientists who do not dare to speak up, even though they know better? What will the rest of the world be thinking about a German science that is corroded by politics?

    Friedrich Kellner 1941

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Thea

    At least the German universities were de-Nazified after 1945. Who is going to de-globohomolize our universities, ever?

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Mitchell Porter

  137. Alden says:
    @Mr. Anon
    @BB753


    Gender is solely a grammatical construct.

    ......................................................................

    Please leave gender alone! It belongs to linguistics.
     
    Amen. The word is "sex". It is a biological category and it is real. It is the word people should use when discussing the sexes.

    The employ of "gender" by the PoMo deviancy-normalizing crowd is perhaps down to so many of them coming from the Modern Languages area.

    Replies: @Alden

    I think that the substitution of the grammatical word gender for actual sex of humans by the early late 60’s feminazis was squeamish Puritanism. They just didn’t want to say sex as it has too many connotations of sexual activity.

    I’ve noticed sex isn’t often used on forms. Just little boxes in front of male female.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Alden


    I think that the substitution of the grammatical word gender for actual sex of humans by the early late 60’s feminazis was squeamish Puritanism.
     
    I counter that it was outright fraud.

    Note that where it would count the most, the Equal Rights Amendment, the word is sex. Ambiguity would work against them there.
  138. @Corvinus
    @Mr. Anon

    "They’re writing in the New York Times, dumbshit."

    A number of authors have had their work published here. It does not mean that they have the type of clout you think they do to move mountains.

    "Do people write op-eds in the Times to not be influential. Is the Times not an influential media outlet?"

    Outlets have a wide range of people who publish their work. It's called a market place for ideas. Some of those pieces are meant to sate the appetite for certain groups.

    "And clearly the cumulative effect of people like these two shrews is influential given that trans-genderism is now becoming a “normal” thing"

    Not necessarily what they specifically wrote about.

    Replies: @Alden, @Alfa158

    As long as the liberals focus on trans gender they aren’t lowering the age of consent to 12 then 10 then 8 then 6 then 4.

    I believe that’s their ultimate goal.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Alden


    As long as the liberals focus on trans gender they aren’t lowering the age of consent to 12 then 10 then 8 then 6 then 4.

    I believe that’s their ultimate goal.
     
    Unfortunately I suspect you're correct.
  139. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/divanificent/status/1123564195205787649

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Alfa158, @Jack D, @guest, @Forbes, @El Dato

    She forgot to add “Polly wants a cracker”. Otherwise a flawless bit of parroting.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    @Alfa158

    Eggs-cellent!

  140. @Corvinus
    @Mr. Anon

    "They’re writing in the New York Times, dumbshit."

    A number of authors have had their work published here. It does not mean that they have the type of clout you think they do to move mountains.

    "Do people write op-eds in the Times to not be influential. Is the Times not an influential media outlet?"

    Outlets have a wide range of people who publish their work. It's called a market place for ideas. Some of those pieces are meant to sate the appetite for certain groups.

    "And clearly the cumulative effect of people like these two shrews is influential given that trans-genderism is now becoming a “normal” thing"

    Not necessarily what they specifically wrote about.

    Replies: @Alden, @Alfa158

    It’s not necessarily what they specifically wrote about, but it is what they specifically wrote about.

  141. @Autochthon

    Katrina Karkazis is a senior visiting fellow at the Global Health Justice Partnership at Yale University. Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard College.
     
    If this bit read something like...

    Katrina Karkazis is a senior visiting fellow at the Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry. Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Biological Chemistry of the University of Michigan's Medical School.
     
    ....then we might bother about what these people had to say. In the event, this is – at best! – something like a paper about astrophysics, derogating the heliocentric model of the solar system, written by an expert on medieval farming techniques and a specialist in the the history of commedia dell'arte.

    Replies: @Alden

    They didn’t even take college anatomy and physiology courses. Maybe it should be required freshman year in all colleges. It would clear up a lot of the Insanity Studies nonsense.

  142. @ic1000
    Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn't easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple -- discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic's page on testosterone was the first search result, so I'll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    ("Reference Values" means "the normal range for the people in question".)
    ("Bioavailable" as well as "total" testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis' and Jordan-Young's essay. Alas, that's most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.
     
    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women's bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as "earliest" researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    "The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Corvinus, @Keypusher, @S. Anonyia, @res, @International Jew, @Buzz Mohawk, @Abe, @guest, @Hypnotoad666

    Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard College.

    Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies, the queen of the sciences!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Abe


    Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies, the queen of the sciences!
     
    No, the science of queens.
  143. @Jonathan Mason
    @Anonymous


    ‘Caster’ of course implies castrate – from the Latin meaning ‘pure’
     
    Seems a bit dubious to me. The Latin word for a gelding is sectarius, and the Latin words for cut usually have the sect or cis roots. The Spanish word for cut is cortar.

    Caster, as a name, is more likely to be associated with Roman place names like Doncaster, England, a military camp on the river Don, or Lancaster a camp on the river Lune. I believe the name Castile has similar associations, and, of course, castle.

    Caster sugar is a very finely ground sugar, presumably fine enough to be sprinkled using a sugar castor, a device use to cast sugar rather like casting seed on fertile ground, not that Semenya is likely to be doing that.

    Sugar castor.

    http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/121092690903-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    Maybe the family was just trying for a clever anagram: A Secret Man, Yes

    Hey, who knows? People have done stranger things and Africans seem to have kind of a troll-ish sense of humor.

    Also typically African, Caster is probably a lot of people’s meal tickets back home.

  144. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/divanificent/status/1123564195205787649

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Alfa158, @Jack D, @guest, @Forbes, @El Dato

    how hegemonic womanhood is operationalised and maintained

    Why just today I was discussing with my fellow white people how we need to operationalise hegemonic womanhood some more. I told them that we need to operationalise the hegemony and hegemonize the operationalization and then when we get done with that we need to maintain the operation of the hegemony some more.

    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Jack D

    Jack, one of the most difficult parts of going to college is trying to figure out what the writer means. Never, ever use simple terms and thoughts, you'll never get tenure.

  145. @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    Corvinus says:

    • Troll: ic1000

    • Replies: , , , , , , ,

    Steve, you should consider paying this guy.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    @Anon

    I know, I know, I’m feeding the troll. I make it a point to ignore him and a certain screechy female, but I’m bored and things happen.

    Replies: @SFG

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Anon


    Corvinus says:

    • Troll: ic1000

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag

    Steve, you should consider paying this guy.
     
    Why do we comment here?

    To make our opinions known - to sway the opinion of others. The idiot known as "Corvinus" wants to influence people who visit this site. I want to make sure he doesn't. I want to influence anyone who reads him to reject what he says and believe what I say. Because I'm right and he's wrong. Don't you want to do the same?

    This is a kind of war, you know. And as Trotsky once said........................

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @SFG, @ic1000

  146. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Tono Bungay

    Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.

    Indeed, the reductio ad absurdum is for there to be no division, for men and women to compete together. But is this actually absurd? The only reason for the existence of most women's sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    There are some events for which women may naturally be better suited, such that women might continue to come out at the top. Women's type gymnastics (particularly the balance beam -- ouch!) very-long-distance swimming, and the graceful figure skating that women do are examples.

    It might be a good idea to just have women compete against men in all sporting events. It might help re-educate them and the Western World that men and women are different.

    Replies: @prosa123, @Jonathan Mason, @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    “Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.”

    Red blood cells don’t have chromosomes. The gratuitous cruelty of calling her “he” fits with opinions that fail a Biology 101 understanding of the human body.

    • LOL: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Anon

    Gotcha! Mature red blood cells don't have nuclei, ergo Semenya is a gal. You indeed are wise in the ways of science, 429!

    , @TWS
    @Anon

    Tiny duck has sock puppets, who knew?

    , @guest
    @Anon

    "Gotcha! Not EVERY cell!"

    Okay, so its blood has no sex. Except the blood that doesn't come out once a month with the sex cells it doesn't have.

  147. Semenya is a male with undescended testicles (and of course no ovaries). He/she was, as an infant, sexually ambiguous but as in many such cases his parents chose to raise him as a girl (albeit one with a larger than normal clitoris and no vagina). His reproductive system (but not his muscles) are apparently insensitive to the testosterone that his testicles produce so he never developed adult male characteristics such as a beard and he appears (very slightly) feminized. He is certainly incapable of motherhood. OTOH, his muscles developed as normal male muscles – the guy could knock you out with one punch. If they don’t let him run as a woman anymore he should take up boxing. It is a sign of our sickness as a society that it is at all controversial that the dude is a dude. Only intellectuals could be this stupid.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Jack D

    He even has masculine swagger. This shouldn't even be controversial.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Jack D

    Jack, they, the "intellectuals", do not want a definition of male or female. They want the fluid ambiquity that they espouse.

  148. Katrina Karkazis is a senior visiting fellow at the Global Health Justice Partnership at Yale University.

    Global Health Justice = Oh! A gal eject bullshit!

  149. Make Women’s Sports “Y-Free’” Again !

  150. @Jonathan Mason
    @S. Anonyia


    Any man who thinks women shouldn’t compete just because they will never measure up to the men or to the men masquerading as women is something of a sore loser. I’ve never met a man who did sports on a decent level who also mocked women’s sports.
     
    I have no objection to women participating in sports. My two daughters were both playing soccer this morning in mixed teams.

    However women's track and field loses all appeal as a televised spectacle if it is dominated by men who are competing as women because they qualify on some kind of technicality that makes them unable to compete with men.

    The women's 100 meter world record has been held for many years by the late Flo-Jo who was strongly suspected of steroid use and drugs including testosterone and human growth hormone before she died in her sleep from a seizure.

    I don't know if the rumors are true, but you wouldn't want her to get you in a headlock with those thighs.

    https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1205/title-ix-top-40-athletes/images/florence-Griffith-Joyner.jpg

    Replies: @Pericles, @Unladen Swallow, @james wilson, @Steve Sailer

    The women’s 100 meter world record has been held for many years by the late Flo-Jo who was strongly suspected of steroid use and drugs including testosterone and human growth hormone before she died in her sleep from a seizure.

    BALCO …

  151. Roughly 20 years after Andrew Sullivan’s seminal “The He Hormone” in the NYT magazine, describing the profound effects prescribed T injections had on him. What was obvious then is even more obvious now, but the Times’s quality has declined drastically in the last two decades.

  152. @Anon
    @Corvinus

    Corvinus says:

    • Troll: ic1000

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag


    Steve, you should consider paying this guy.

    Replies: @L Woods, @Mr. Anon

    I know, I know, I’m feeding the troll. I make it a point to ignore him and a certain screechy female, but I’m bored and things happen.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @L Woods

    Come on. Corvinus actually tries to argue with people. Tiny Duck says things no actual progressive would say ('all the black men are going to steal your women') to annoy people.

    Replies: @TWS, @L Woods

  153. @Anon
    @Buzz Mohawk

    “Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.”

    Red blood cells don’t have chromosomes. The gratuitous cruelty of calling her “he” fits with opinions that fail a Biology 101 understanding of the human body.

    Replies: @Jack D, @TWS, @guest

    Gotcha! Mature red blood cells don’t have nuclei, ergo Semenya is a gal. You indeed are wise in the ways of science, 429!

  154. @Thea
    If we consider the present conditions, a feeling of sadness flows from the thought that since 1933, the great majority of intellectual leaders, especially the university professors, without any hesitation, dedicated themselves to the new politicsical direction and pushed aside everything they previously advocated and taught. Almost all gave up their own will, their own thinking, and idolized, in a sycophantic, unprincipled way, what had been prescribed to them by the party. What can you say, as a simple man, about scholars and scientists who do not dare to speak up, even though they know better? What will the rest of the world be thinking about a German science that is corroded by politics?

    Friedrich Kellner 1941

    Replies: @Jack D

    At least the German universities were de-Nazified after 1945. Who is going to de-globohomolize our universities, ever?

  155. @Kent Nationalist
    @Anonymous


    Biological Essentialism
     
    What did she mean by this?

    Replies: @Jack D, @Reg Cæsar

    Biological Essentialism is the racist, sexist, evil notion that humans are not entirely socially constructed creatures like cartoon characters but rather that there are essential biological differences between the races and sexes which influence outcomes.

  156. @SFG
    Read the comments on this article. As with the illegal immigration articles, the comments on the reader's picks are really, really different from the Times picks, and do a nice job ripping the arguments apart.

    Before they delete them, here are the most-recommended ones, names snipped:

    "This article is close to non-scientific. I am a scientist (biophysics) who can read the literature, and what this article says stretches the truth through selective omission to make its point, which is intellectually dishonest. I feel sympathy for Semenya but we don't have a reasonable solution in this case for a condition that is rare but leads to higher performance in a class of athletes. Other women athletes wouldn't have doped with testosterone if it didn't given them advantages in sports that demand sustained strength.

    And none of that is to deny that women have naturally occurring testosterone or that it is physiologically important for female development. That's not what people mean when they say testosterone is the male hormone (only a literalist or somebody arguing in bad faith would claim that)."

    "This opinion piece is presented in a very deceptive way. The byline is for "Dr. Karkazis and Dr. Jordan-Young". But neither of the two is a medical doctor, and neither has a degree in biology or medicine. A PhD in women's studies is not proof of mastery of any form of objective knowledge. What we see here is a dislike for gender norms so strong that the authors are willing to destroy the chances of biologically normal females to win medals in any form of short-distance running.
    The whole point of separate competitions for women is to given women a chance to compete only against other women without male attributes or athletic advantages."

    "Neither of these authors seem to be scientists. One is an anthropologist and one is a gender studies professor. This doesn't disqualify them from commenting on this subject but I would prefer to have the opinion of a research MD and an exercise physiologist. Testosterone does have an effect on athletic performance....if it didn't then why aren't athletes allowed to "juice" with it. The case they are concerned about is an interesting "outlier" but shouldn't be used to set precedent."

    "The fact that a Yale faculty member (anthropologist?) who "Drawing on my training in cultural anthropology, gender studies, science studies, and empirical bioethics, my work is deeply interdisciplinary, and addresses a range of topics challenging entrenched scientific and medical beliefs about gender, sex" is writing mistakes notions about the performance enhancing aspects of T is worrisome.
    Fact: testosterone is a banned substance in sports. Ask Lance Armstrong why and how he used it for recovery.
    Fact: testosterone is a DEA federally controlled prescription under U.S. medical law because of the risks of abuse.
    So the authors are basically misleading with their intersectionality and gender studies. This is medicine and science. How to use it is appropriate for discussion"

    "I respectfully disagree and want to point out that there have been many other articles - in the Times as well - that support the science that testosterone is a key factor in muscle growth, stamina, etc. Studies have also shown that female runners with more testosterone have a distinct advantage in the events that Ms. Semenya runs. Testosterone levels are and always will be a key differentiation point between men and women, especially in athletics. Fact - men have more testosterone. Fact - the fastest women in the world in the 400 meters and 800 meters run times that are SLOWER than the officially recorded times of approximately 10,000 men running the same event. There are very good reasons why sports separate men and women, and testosterone is one of them. It is unfortunate that Ms. Semenya will have to conform to standards that will always be ripe for dissection and criticism, and that some will always see this as discriminatory against her. She is who is she and that is not her fault. But this is not a case where the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."

    I really like this one, use the example for future arguments:
    "These two doctors don't have a single science degree between them (not even an undergraduate one, as far as I was able to check), not to mention an MD. Their argument is appropriately confused, and is nothing but an attempt to muddle the water. First they do so when they argue that testosterone levels don't matter that much because different levels have been observed in men competing in different sports... But this is a straw man argument. No one has argued that the hormone is central to all sports equally. In fact, the very ruling they attack is very narrow and applies only to track and field disciplines of a certain length. The authors then try to muddle the water again when they bring up the fact that testosterone is not exclusively a male hormone. But in order to be a defining sex characteristic it doesn't need to be an exclusively male one - it is sufficient that it appears in dramatically different concentrations in men and women. What they say is like arguing that there is no link between smoking and lung cancer just because occasionally a non-smoker will get the disease. In sum, this piece is typical of the left's war on science. While the right's war on science focuses on global warming, the left's war on science focuses on biological sex differences."

    Replies: @dr kill, @res, @Buffalo Joe, @Unladen Swallow, @guest

    SFG, Thank you . I hate to read the Times. Now go rest your eyes.

  157. @anonymous
    "It is not the “male sex hormone,” nor is it the key to athletic performance. Why do we insist otherwise?"

    They are at least partly right. Straw men have no testosterone.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Reg Cæsar

    anonymous, BINGO ! Strawmen the favorite men of feminists. No balls. No dick. What’s not to like.

  158. Yes, the blank slate argument that testosterone doesn’t have a big impact on athletic performance is based on a narrow measurement of its impact over the lifespan. This is demonstrated by the trans women athletes that are taking drugs to reduce their male hormone levels. They are reducing their hormone levels to female levels, and this is reducing their performance, but they have male bone structures which still appear to be giving them a significant advantage. This bone structure advantage could probably be cancelled out by insisting that athletes performing as females fit within a normal female BMI range. Because of their heavier and longer bones, most wannabe female athletes with an abnormal bone structure would fall outside the normal BMI range for women.


  159. She shrinks from his touch.

  160. @Anon
    @Buzz Mohawk

    “Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.”

    Red blood cells don’t have chromosomes. The gratuitous cruelty of calling her “he” fits with opinions that fail a Biology 101 understanding of the human body.

    Replies: @Jack D, @TWS, @guest

    Tiny duck has sock puppets, who knew?

  161. “why do we insist otherwise”

    Personally, my mother-identifying forebear and my father-identifying forebear were kidnapped by a rogue cult of right-wing bio-chemistry fanatics who brainwashed them with hormone propaganda in an effort to force womankind back into the kitchen. Some of that rubbed off on me.

    The rest of society, I don’t know. Maybe they observed reality and came to their own conclusions.

  162. @L Woods
    @Anon

    I know, I know, I’m feeding the troll. I make it a point to ignore him and a certain screechy female, but I’m bored and things happen.

    Replies: @SFG

    Come on. Corvinus actually tries to argue with people. Tiny Duck says things no actual progressive would say (‘all the black men are going to steal your women’) to annoy people.

    • Replies: @TWS
    @SFG

    So what? He's less entertaining than the duck but no more intelligent. I've simply blocked him

    , @L Woods
    @SFG

    He argues in bad faith and is an arch pedant.

  163. Ola says: • Website
    @S. Anonyia
    @Jonathan Mason

    Drop the curtain? As in, end women’s track and field? Why? Women participated in sports/games for exercise and entertainment going all the way back to Rome and Sparta....it’s on mosaics and frescos.

    Any man who thinks women shouldn’t compete just because they will never measure up to the men or to the men masquerading as women is something of a sore loser. I’ve never met a man who did sports on a decent level who also mocked women’s sports. It’s always the dudes who were never good enough to compete that get into that line of thinking. Maybe they are still jealous that they didn’t make the varsity squad in high school sport x? The dude then thinks to themselves, well I might have been one of the stars of the girls squad, so why is anyone giving these women attention over me? Very sore loser thinking.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @Ola

    I love women’s track and field. Hard-working, healthy and athletic women who will provide you with hard-working, healthy, athletic and very attractive sons (the daughters will probably look way better than average too).

    On top international level there will be some freaks skewing the odds, but on national and local level in Sweden, I’d prefer T&F girls to almost all other girls.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Ola

    My guess is that running races are pretty natural for girls to want to win at. Do little girls spontaneously organize running races ever? I don't know offhand, but it seems more likely that they would do that than, say, spontaneously organize hit-a-ball-with-a-stick games, which little boys are inclined to do.

    What about horses? Young male horses in a field will race each other. If young female horses are put in their own field, do they race each other? Female horses are about 99% as fast as male horses. Fillies have won a few Kentucky Derbies.

    Replies: @Ola, @Kent Nationalist

  164. “But what has puzzled us in nearly a decade of research is how these ideas have gained so much traction among the organisations that regulate sports”

    Your easily puzzled minds aside, outside of relatively feminine sports like figure skating, you must think of women’s sport as a pantomime of real sport. Sort of like Little League, where kids are just learning and could be annihilated by slightly older humans. Abolishing the age limit would kick all the little ones out of Little League, because they can’t compete.

    There’s nothing sporting about a woman with testicles and elevated testosterone beating up on regular sportswomen. Regulatory bodies aren’t so obtuse as to not realize that for females to compete in endeavors like footracing, where males have a natural advantage, they must be protected. They must have their Safe Space.

    These lady researchers might as well let a regular dude sweep the Special Olympics because of the “myth of IQ.”

  165. @Jack D
    Semenya is a male with undescended testicles (and of course no ovaries). He/she was, as an infant, sexually ambiguous but as in many such cases his parents chose to raise him as a girl (albeit one with a larger than normal clitoris and no vagina). His reproductive system (but not his muscles) are apparently insensitive to the testosterone that his testicles produce so he never developed adult male characteristics such as a beard and he appears (very slightly) feminized. He is certainly incapable of motherhood. OTOH, his muscles developed as normal male muscles - the guy could knock you out with one punch. If they don't let him run as a woman anymore he should take up boxing. It is a sign of our sickness as a society that it is at all controversial that the dude is a dude. Only intellectuals could be this stupid.


    https://www.eldictamen.mx/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/1semeyena-1.jpg

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @Buffalo Joe

    He even has masculine swagger. This shouldn’t even be controversial.

  166. @Daniel H
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Gender, unlike sex, is arguably a social construct.

    Please, stop with this nonsense. This blog is a clear thinking zone. Gender is sex, sex is gender. The meanings are identical. And what is with this rhetorical formulation "presents". So and so, presents s a woman. Nonsense. Nonsense.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    “Please, stop with this nonsense. This blog is a clear thinking zone. Gender is sex, sex is gender. The meanings are identical.”

    Are you being sarcastic or were you just educated in the last 25 years i.e. lied to and indoctrinated?

    Quick history lesson

    back in the mists of time, but not very far back, say 1990 or even 2000, there were two very useful nouns

    “Sex” in both biology and in everyday life meant your biological sex, for 99.9%+ of people defined at birth when the nurse held you up and said “It’s a ***!”
    (it also meant the thing which perpetuates the species and nearly everyone likes but, within living memory, few of us liked to write or talk about)
    When you filled in a form, you filled in “name”, “date of birth” and “sex” (the joke was that people would enter ‘yes please’). Even in these woke days, the UK passport says ‘Sex’, and as far as I know it has to be M or F.

    “Gender” was mainly used in language teaching and linguistics. Some languages, like English, have neutral nouns – you say “the woman” and “the man” – but other languages, like German and most Romance languages, have gendered nouns “die Frau”, “der Mann” and “das Haus” for feminine, masculine and neuter nouns. Look at a German or French dictionary and every noun will have its gender.
    Even English is a bit gendered, in that ships, for example, are considered female (“may God bless her and all who sail in her” is recited at the launch), where in German a ship is neuter (“das Schiff”). As you can see, genders in German and other languages are social constructs. Why should a table be masculine but a wall feminine? Why’s a shower of rain masculine but a bathroom shower feminine?

    And now we come to the reason “sex” and “gender” are so conjoined now that you and a lot of others think they’re identical – Simone De Beauvoir, in The Second Sex (1949). Notice she didn’t say gender.

    One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman. No biological, psychological, or economic destiny defines the figure that the human female acquires in society; it is civilization as a whole that develops this product, intermediate between female and eunuch, which one calls feminine. Only the mediation of another can establish an individual as an Other. In so far as he exists for himself, the child would not be able to understand himself as sexually differentiated. In girls as in boys the body is first of all the radiation of a subjectivity, the instrument that accomplishes the comprehension of the world: it is through the eyes, the hands, and not through the sexual parts that children apprehend the universe.”

    (Ms Beauvoir didn’t actually have any kids, as any parent of boys and girls might tell. Small children, given half a chance, are pretty quick at differentiating biological boys from biological girls.)

    From this single feminist insight/delusion sprung the blank-slate idea, built on in a thousand theses and preached in ten thousand sociology, critical theory and women’s studies seminars, that our sexual differentiation is a product of our conditioning, not of our genes, and that what used to be called “sex roles” are in fact “gender roles”- i.e., like genders in language, socially constructed.

    The pushing of “gender” to describe what was previously known as “sex” was deliberate, the original intention being to reinforce the idea that our roles are socially* not biologically defined.

    They’ve been successful, too successful, such that in the last 25 years they’ve made the two terms identical and a whole bunch of journalists, plus Daniel H, think that they ARE identical.

    (*you have to read feminists to believe the delusions – for example Julie Bindel , prominent UK radfem lesbian, will publicly argue that childless women, desperately trying to conceive, are only unhappy because they’ve internalised their societal conditioning which apparently tells them they ought to have babies).

    Lots of assertion, a bit of evidence – “sex” vs “gender”, 1880 to 2000, Google Ngrams. Hope it shows properly because the edit function seems to come and go these days.

    Note

    1) both terms didn’t get much use up to 1910. “Gender” was pretty much confined to language textbooks.
    2) “Sex” started climbing 1910-30, by 1930 many people knew what “sex appeal” or “It” was. Then a plateau until 1960. “Gender” still flatlining.
    3) come the mid-60s and “sex” – in the copulatory sense – started a huge rise through the 70s up to 1980. “Gender” took off from its very low base in the mid-70s – around the time Women’s Studies and feminist ideas were spreading in academia – and continued climbing after “sex” finally flatlined in 1990, so that by 2000, “gender” got nearly as many mentions as “sex’” whereas in most of the previous 120 years it had an order of magnitude fewer references.

    A pity Ngrams stops at 2000, as I wouldn’t be surprised if “gender” is actually ahead now.

  167. @Just Saying
    I'm of the opinion 'if you're born with it, it's fair' - I have no problem with Semenya competing with women, because I think she's a woman. Just like some folks are born 7' tall, Secretariat was born with an enlarged heart, some people just receive genetic gifts.

    It's the trans-men who switch to women's sports - through a choice, not having been born that way - that are the real problem. Semenya can only dominate her sport for 10 - 15 years, then she'll pass as a once-in-a-big-number anomaly. Allowing men to compete as women ensures a constant stream of mockery.

    Replies: @kihowi, @SFG, @Federalist, @JMcG, @Jack D, @Ola, @Sideways, @Franz Liszt von Raiding, @Autochthon, @S. Anonyia, @The Anti-Gnostic, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @guest

    You are a crazy person.

    Let anyone compete in men’s sports, i.e. real sports, okay. But the entire point of women’s sport is that it’s restricted to actual women. Because if they had to compete against men they wouldn’t make the cut.

    The cut can’t be your subjective appreciation of her supposed womanhood. Because then borderline cases with extra hormone powers would take over women’s sports and we wouldn’t have women’s sports anymore.

    Not that I would care because aside from gymnastics and figure skating I never watch it. But other people do.

    • Replies: @TWS
    @guest

    Beach volleyball. Women's beach volleyball.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @guest

  168. Ola says: • Website
    @Spangel
    I’ve read a few articles from the msm on caster semenya and none of them admit that “she” is xy or that she has testes.

    I find their efforts to obfuscate these facts go further than the usual manipulation.

    Semenya is a man. It’s actually that simple. She is not even an intersex person because she has no apparent secondary sexual traits of women. This person was born an xy male, presumably with undescended testes. Chances are high that she was born with some kind of a malformed penis. As for what happened to it, they might have removed it as a baby or it might just be very small.

    She does not have androgen insensitivity, hence her voice and body type. This is simply a man with undescended testes.

    But the media spins crazy circles around this trying to make this about a woman who is being forced to take drugs because her natural testosterone levels are too high.

    Remarkable that social justice warriors have enough clout to convince major organizations that people with Y chromosomes can be born female.

    Twitter is obsessed with the fact that a woman runner who complained about semenya is white. To them this is a story of the world taking sides with a white cisgendered woman over a black gay woman. And to Twitter, they believe that pointing out that semenya looks and sounds like a man is forcing women to conform to a narrow gender expectation.

    For sjws, The fight comes down to prizing white femininity over black women who are told they look outside gender norms. Black women hate the idea that they are considered more masculine than others. But here they are acting as though real black women could ever be as masculine looking as blacks with Y chromosomes.

    Utter insanity. I’ve been repulsed by Serena Williams all my life, but she looks one thousand times as feminine as semenya.

    Replies: @Ola

    Well-put! Utter insanity indeed. Swedish media is just as crazy and most Swedish track coaches are posturing cretins who just repeat the media lies to look enlightened and hip with the times.

    (I do, however, not find Serena Williams repulsive. I don’t find her attractive but I can see how she might appeal to some guys and I agree that she looks one thousand times as feminine as Semenya.)

  169. @SFG
    @Just Saying

    Yeah, I can't really blame Semenya, she's just competing with the body God gave her. And if you've got the drive to actually become an Olympic athlete, you're not going to step aside nicely.

    Is she a woman...I don't know. She's got a Y chromosome and testes, it's just that her testosterone receptors don't work. This is one of those edge cases that get debated to death, I'd just say 'sort of'.

    Replies: @Ola, @Ola, @Desiderius, @stillCARealist, @anon, @res, @BB753, @TWS, @guest

    “Sort of”

    Whatever it is, it obviously has an advantage that makes the competition farcical.

  170. “I am a grown up. I act in good faith.”

    Ron, we need another box – “Liar”.

    “Disagree” isn’t strong enough.

  171. @SFG
    @L Woods

    Come on. Corvinus actually tries to argue with people. Tiny Duck says things no actual progressive would say ('all the black men are going to steal your women') to annoy people.

    Replies: @TWS, @L Woods

    So what? He’s less entertaining than the duck but no more intelligent. I’ve simply blocked him

  172. I have so much estrogen that my adopted, “Rescue dog” does not care for me at all. Her previous owner was an Army Ranger. Right now, my dog is in love with a, self admitted, “Bull Dyke”. Whenever the lady, aka, “Bull Dyke”, comes to the dog park, my dog approaches her slavishly, groveling and sucking up to her and following her everywhere. Once she got in this woman’s truck and would not come out. My dog waits for this woman to appear, watching the parking lot obsessively for her.
    My dog shows very little affection or love for me. Animals can smell, sense, testosterone. My dog will follow any unneutered male dog around the dog park, literally bathing in their urine as they cock their legs on chairs, plants, etc. Humans can sense it, but many of us won’t admit so.

  173. @Oleaginous Outrager

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning.
     
    Only among the truly ignorant and mentally lazy. Like these two authors.

    It's always wonderful to learn the myriad of important things we need poured to our simple vacant minds by our betters at the Carlos Slim Blog.

    Replies: @TWS, @guest

    It’s instructive to listen to people who apparently know nothing about the vast majority of human understanding tell us how other people are suckers buying into myths. It’s like some tone-deaf idiot who never studied music trying to guess why people like the wrong songs.

  174. @SFG
    Read the comments on this article. As with the illegal immigration articles, the comments on the reader's picks are really, really different from the Times picks, and do a nice job ripping the arguments apart.

    Before they delete them, here are the most-recommended ones, names snipped:

    "This article is close to non-scientific. I am a scientist (biophysics) who can read the literature, and what this article says stretches the truth through selective omission to make its point, which is intellectually dishonest. I feel sympathy for Semenya but we don't have a reasonable solution in this case for a condition that is rare but leads to higher performance in a class of athletes. Other women athletes wouldn't have doped with testosterone if it didn't given them advantages in sports that demand sustained strength.

    And none of that is to deny that women have naturally occurring testosterone or that it is physiologically important for female development. That's not what people mean when they say testosterone is the male hormone (only a literalist or somebody arguing in bad faith would claim that)."

    "This opinion piece is presented in a very deceptive way. The byline is for "Dr. Karkazis and Dr. Jordan-Young". But neither of the two is a medical doctor, and neither has a degree in biology or medicine. A PhD in women's studies is not proof of mastery of any form of objective knowledge. What we see here is a dislike for gender norms so strong that the authors are willing to destroy the chances of biologically normal females to win medals in any form of short-distance running.
    The whole point of separate competitions for women is to given women a chance to compete only against other women without male attributes or athletic advantages."

    "Neither of these authors seem to be scientists. One is an anthropologist and one is a gender studies professor. This doesn't disqualify them from commenting on this subject but I would prefer to have the opinion of a research MD and an exercise physiologist. Testosterone does have an effect on athletic performance....if it didn't then why aren't athletes allowed to "juice" with it. The case they are concerned about is an interesting "outlier" but shouldn't be used to set precedent."

    "The fact that a Yale faculty member (anthropologist?) who "Drawing on my training in cultural anthropology, gender studies, science studies, and empirical bioethics, my work is deeply interdisciplinary, and addresses a range of topics challenging entrenched scientific and medical beliefs about gender, sex" is writing mistakes notions about the performance enhancing aspects of T is worrisome.
    Fact: testosterone is a banned substance in sports. Ask Lance Armstrong why and how he used it for recovery.
    Fact: testosterone is a DEA federally controlled prescription under U.S. medical law because of the risks of abuse.
    So the authors are basically misleading with their intersectionality and gender studies. This is medicine and science. How to use it is appropriate for discussion"

    "I respectfully disagree and want to point out that there have been many other articles - in the Times as well - that support the science that testosterone is a key factor in muscle growth, stamina, etc. Studies have also shown that female runners with more testosterone have a distinct advantage in the events that Ms. Semenya runs. Testosterone levels are and always will be a key differentiation point between men and women, especially in athletics. Fact - men have more testosterone. Fact - the fastest women in the world in the 400 meters and 800 meters run times that are SLOWER than the officially recorded times of approximately 10,000 men running the same event. There are very good reasons why sports separate men and women, and testosterone is one of them. It is unfortunate that Ms. Semenya will have to conform to standards that will always be ripe for dissection and criticism, and that some will always see this as discriminatory against her. She is who is she and that is not her fault. But this is not a case where the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."

    I really like this one, use the example for future arguments:
    "These two doctors don't have a single science degree between them (not even an undergraduate one, as far as I was able to check), not to mention an MD. Their argument is appropriately confused, and is nothing but an attempt to muddle the water. First they do so when they argue that testosterone levels don't matter that much because different levels have been observed in men competing in different sports... But this is a straw man argument. No one has argued that the hormone is central to all sports equally. In fact, the very ruling they attack is very narrow and applies only to track and field disciplines of a certain length. The authors then try to muddle the water again when they bring up the fact that testosterone is not exclusively a male hormone. But in order to be a defining sex characteristic it doesn't need to be an exclusively male one - it is sufficient that it appears in dramatically different concentrations in men and women. What they say is like arguing that there is no link between smoking and lung cancer just because occasionally a non-smoker will get the disease. In sum, this piece is typical of the left's war on science. While the right's war on science focuses on global warming, the left's war on science focuses on biological sex differences."

    Replies: @dr kill, @res, @Buffalo Joe, @Unladen Swallow, @guest

    Thanks, I’m surprised the NYT hasn’t deleted these already, they really undermine the narrative, assuming the typical Times reader bothers to read the comments section. You can tell they rely heavily on Cordelia Fine’s tactic of using Testosterone to define maleness.

  175. @Tono Bungay
    What escapes these researchers is that if it is unjust to exclude Semenya -- and it certainly is wrong to insist that she take drugs to modify her natural biochemistry -- then it is also wrong to exclude real men from the women's races. The natural endpoint of their argument is to have no division between men's and women's sports. Oddly, though, few feminists seem to want that.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @guest

    It is not wrong to insist anything of the sort. Because she(?) can just go compete with men if she(?) doesn’t want altered chemistry.

  176. Here’s another salvo in the case against testosterone:

  177. @Abe
    @ic1000


    Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard College.
     
    Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies, the queen of the sciences!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies, the queen of the sciences!

    No, the science of queens.

  178. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/divanificent/status/1123564195205787649

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Alfa158, @Jack D, @guest, @Forbes, @El Dato

    Blackness is incompatible with binary notions of gender, no homo.

    • Replies: @Alice in Wonderland
    @guest


    Blackness is incompatible with binary notions of gender, no homo.
     
    Wouldn't this notion offend the average normal black person? From what I have seen, most black Americans anyway, do not much appreciate the crazy white libs using blacks as the excuse to promote every crazy thing the libs come up with.
  179. @Alfa158
    @Anonymous

    She forgot to add “Polly wants a cracker”. Otherwise a flawless bit of parroting.

    Replies: @Forbes

    Eggs-cellent!

  180. @Anon
    TBH women sports were a joke. Have you heard the one with Aussie female soccer team defeated by high school amateur males? Similarly, boxing midgets are extremely annoying. Perhaps they and the women should have their own categories at the Paralympics.

    Replies: @guest

    I think 14 year-old male teams consistently beat adult female soccer teams.

  181. @anonymous
    "It is not the “male sex hormone,” nor is it the key to athletic performance. Why do we insist otherwise?"

    They are at least partly right. Straw men have no testosterone.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Reg Cæsar

    Straw men have no testosterone.

    Say what? Speak for yourself, Kemosabe!

  182. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/divanificent/status/1123564195205787649

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Alfa158, @Jack D, @guest, @Forbes, @El Dato

    What happened to “race is a social construct”? I thought that was the retort that cut-off any further discussion.

    Instead, all these “How” questions…

    It’s so confusing. The PC/SJW brigades change The Narrative so often, who can keep up…

  183. @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    Corvi, The Op-ed is in the NYT, so like getting an imprimatur. This is agenda driven narrative. And it would still be garbage science if it was in the Buffalo News, just way fewer readers. Thank you Steve.

  184. @SFG
    Read the comments on this article. As with the illegal immigration articles, the comments on the reader's picks are really, really different from the Times picks, and do a nice job ripping the arguments apart.

    Before they delete them, here are the most-recommended ones, names snipped:

    "This article is close to non-scientific. I am a scientist (biophysics) who can read the literature, and what this article says stretches the truth through selective omission to make its point, which is intellectually dishonest. I feel sympathy for Semenya but we don't have a reasonable solution in this case for a condition that is rare but leads to higher performance in a class of athletes. Other women athletes wouldn't have doped with testosterone if it didn't given them advantages in sports that demand sustained strength.

    And none of that is to deny that women have naturally occurring testosterone or that it is physiologically important for female development. That's not what people mean when they say testosterone is the male hormone (only a literalist or somebody arguing in bad faith would claim that)."

    "This opinion piece is presented in a very deceptive way. The byline is for "Dr. Karkazis and Dr. Jordan-Young". But neither of the two is a medical doctor, and neither has a degree in biology or medicine. A PhD in women's studies is not proof of mastery of any form of objective knowledge. What we see here is a dislike for gender norms so strong that the authors are willing to destroy the chances of biologically normal females to win medals in any form of short-distance running.
    The whole point of separate competitions for women is to given women a chance to compete only against other women without male attributes or athletic advantages."

    "Neither of these authors seem to be scientists. One is an anthropologist and one is a gender studies professor. This doesn't disqualify them from commenting on this subject but I would prefer to have the opinion of a research MD and an exercise physiologist. Testosterone does have an effect on athletic performance....if it didn't then why aren't athletes allowed to "juice" with it. The case they are concerned about is an interesting "outlier" but shouldn't be used to set precedent."

    "The fact that a Yale faculty member (anthropologist?) who "Drawing on my training in cultural anthropology, gender studies, science studies, and empirical bioethics, my work is deeply interdisciplinary, and addresses a range of topics challenging entrenched scientific and medical beliefs about gender, sex" is writing mistakes notions about the performance enhancing aspects of T is worrisome.
    Fact: testosterone is a banned substance in sports. Ask Lance Armstrong why and how he used it for recovery.
    Fact: testosterone is a DEA federally controlled prescription under U.S. medical law because of the risks of abuse.
    So the authors are basically misleading with their intersectionality and gender studies. This is medicine and science. How to use it is appropriate for discussion"

    "I respectfully disagree and want to point out that there have been many other articles - in the Times as well - that support the science that testosterone is a key factor in muscle growth, stamina, etc. Studies have also shown that female runners with more testosterone have a distinct advantage in the events that Ms. Semenya runs. Testosterone levels are and always will be a key differentiation point between men and women, especially in athletics. Fact - men have more testosterone. Fact - the fastest women in the world in the 400 meters and 800 meters run times that are SLOWER than the officially recorded times of approximately 10,000 men running the same event. There are very good reasons why sports separate men and women, and testosterone is one of them. It is unfortunate that Ms. Semenya will have to conform to standards that will always be ripe for dissection and criticism, and that some will always see this as discriminatory against her. She is who is she and that is not her fault. But this is not a case where the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."

    I really like this one, use the example for future arguments:
    "These two doctors don't have a single science degree between them (not even an undergraduate one, as far as I was able to check), not to mention an MD. Their argument is appropriately confused, and is nothing but an attempt to muddle the water. First they do so when they argue that testosterone levels don't matter that much because different levels have been observed in men competing in different sports... But this is a straw man argument. No one has argued that the hormone is central to all sports equally. In fact, the very ruling they attack is very narrow and applies only to track and field disciplines of a certain length. The authors then try to muddle the water again when they bring up the fact that testosterone is not exclusively a male hormone. But in order to be a defining sex characteristic it doesn't need to be an exclusively male one - it is sufficient that it appears in dramatically different concentrations in men and women. What they say is like arguing that there is no link between smoking and lung cancer just because occasionally a non-smoker will get the disease. In sum, this piece is typical of the left's war on science. While the right's war on science focuses on global warming, the left's war on science focuses on biological sex differences."

    Replies: @dr kill, @res, @Buffalo Joe, @Unladen Swallow, @guest

    Those are reasonable, but the very idea that one should have to respond to this article with anything but a raspberry is disheartening.

  185. @Jack D
    @Anonymous


    how hegemonic womanhood is operationalised and maintained
     
    Why just today I was discussing with my fellow white people how we need to operationalise hegemonic womanhood some more. I told them that we need to operationalise the hegemony and hegemonize the operationalization and then when we get done with that we need to maintain the operation of the hegemony some more.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Jack, one of the most difficult parts of going to college is trying to figure out what the writer means. Never, ever use simple terms and thoughts, you’ll never get tenure.

  186. @ic1000
    Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn't easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple -- discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic's page on testosterone was the first search result, so I'll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    ("Reference Values" means "the normal range for the people in question".)
    ("Bioavailable" as well as "total" testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis' and Jordan-Young's essay. Alas, that's most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.
     
    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women's bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as "earliest" researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    "The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Corvinus, @Keypusher, @S. Anonyia, @res, @International Jew, @Buzz Mohawk, @Abe, @guest, @Hypnotoad666

    It is easier to mislead educated readers if you live in a trash culture that thrives on a discordant symphony of lies that blast out whenever anyone opens their clown mouth.

  187. @Jack D
    Semenya is a male with undescended testicles (and of course no ovaries). He/she was, as an infant, sexually ambiguous but as in many such cases his parents chose to raise him as a girl (albeit one with a larger than normal clitoris and no vagina). His reproductive system (but not his muscles) are apparently insensitive to the testosterone that his testicles produce so he never developed adult male characteristics such as a beard and he appears (very slightly) feminized. He is certainly incapable of motherhood. OTOH, his muscles developed as normal male muscles - the guy could knock you out with one punch. If they don't let him run as a woman anymore he should take up boxing. It is a sign of our sickness as a society that it is at all controversial that the dude is a dude. Only intellectuals could be this stupid.


    https://www.eldictamen.mx/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/1semeyena-1.jpg

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @Buffalo Joe

    Jack, they, the “intellectuals”, do not want a definition of male or female. They want the fluid ambiquity that they espouse.

  188. @SFG
    @L Woods

    Come on. Corvinus actually tries to argue with people. Tiny Duck says things no actual progressive would say ('all the black men are going to steal your women') to annoy people.

    Replies: @TWS, @L Woods

    He argues in bad faith and is an arch pedant.

  189. @El Dato

    “Testosterone: An Unauthorized Biography.”
     
    Who comes up with such really senseless titles?

    There is a major desire to fill minds with meaningless word associations as long as someone can be found who feels oppressed and needs to be de-oppressed, post-humously or even post-genocidally.

    Meanwhile, at MIT Press via Mozilla's Internet Health Report


    Data Feminism
     
    Dis gon be gud.

    Introduction

    Intersectional feminism isn't just about women nor even just about gender. Feminism is about power – who has it and who doesn’t. And in a world in which data is power, and that power is wielded unequally, data feminism can help us understand how it can be challenged and changed.

    by Catherine D'Ignazio and Lauren Klein
     

    Oh good, a wall of text...

    We’ll have more to say about the importance of intersectionality in a few pages, but first let’s find out what happened with Christine Darden and her goal of becoming an aerospace engineer. As Shetterly tells it, Darden heard nothing from her boss but radio silence. [Happens to me all the time and I'm not even intersectional] But two weeks later, she was indeed promoted and transferred to an aerospace engineering group. Darden would go on to conduct ground-breaking research on sonic boom minimization techniques, author more than sixty scientific papers in the field of computational fluid dynamics, and earn her PhD in mechanical engineering-- all while “juggling the duties of Girl Scout mom, Sunday school teacher, trips to music lessons, and homemaker,” she recalls.
     
    The Incredibles! Supermom!!

    For over a decade, this research required that Darden work overtime in the office as well as at home. But she could tell that her scientific accomplishments were still not being recognized at the same level as her male colleagues. Once again, data analysis opened doors for Darden. But this time, Darden wasn’t responsible for the math. Instead, her technical expertise provided a key datapoint for a larger advocacy project.
     
    Okay. Enough already. Scroll on ....

    But data-driven decision-making can be just as easily used to amplify the inequities already entrenched in public life. In Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy, Cathy O’Neill has drawn attention to how predictive policing models use data about property tax delinquency and arrest locations, the very same datasets used for good by the City of New York’s stats team, in order to determine which neighborhoods to patrol more heavily, and which neighborhoods to leave alone. Like city building inspectors, it turns out that police are also in short supply. But in the case of policing, data analysis does not always save lives.
     
    You know what's coming! Overpolicing.

    Because more police are sent into neighborhoods that have had more crimes already reported, the police are more likely to be there when a new crime is committed (or, as in most cases, simply suspected of taking place). And because the police are already there, the people involved--usually poor, and usually people of color-- are more likely to get ticketed, arrested, or even killed.

     

    Because the police are already there, blacks are more likely to get killed. That's why St. Louis might call in the National Guard to keep black people from offing each other.

    This creates what O’Neill calls a “pernicious feedback loop,” amplifying the effects of the already pernicious criminalization of poverty that takes place in the United States. Meanwhile, in more affluent neighborhoods, the very same petty crimes--like jaywalking or littering, for instance-- are far less likely to be prosecuted because the police simply aren’t there to see those crimes take place.
     
    Why aren't the police there? Is it because nobody gets shot in the face because he refuses to move his car?

    This disparity in law enforcement is what led to the creation of White Collar Crime Risk Zones, a satirical map of all of the white collar crime that goes uninvestigated because neighborhoods of color are so overpoliced.

     

    White Collar. Get it? It's not the opposite of Blue Collar. It's the opposite of Black Collar.

    [Unironical red-colored map of the financial district elided]

    Do writers have IQ above 80 nowadays?

    Replies: @guest, @Forbes, @Alfa158, @HammerJack

    Uh, that’s pretty bad satire. Can they actually believe beat cops whirling their batons as they stroll down the street can stop white-collar crime?

    [Faint Irish accent]: “You der, wit da dishonest accounting report! Dontcha be misleading the shareholders, now. Go on home and report your losses honestly before I tan yer hide!”

    by the way, blacks commit a disproportionate amount of white-collar crimes, too.

  190. @Jonathan Mason
    @S. Anonyia


    Any man who thinks women shouldn’t compete just because they will never measure up to the men or to the men masquerading as women is something of a sore loser. I’ve never met a man who did sports on a decent level who also mocked women’s sports.
     
    I have no objection to women participating in sports. My two daughters were both playing soccer this morning in mixed teams.

    However women's track and field loses all appeal as a televised spectacle if it is dominated by men who are competing as women because they qualify on some kind of technicality that makes them unable to compete with men.

    The women's 100 meter world record has been held for many years by the late Flo-Jo who was strongly suspected of steroid use and drugs including testosterone and human growth hormone before she died in her sleep from a seizure.

    I don't know if the rumors are true, but you wouldn't want her to get you in a headlock with those thighs.

    https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1205/title-ix-top-40-athletes/images/florence-Griffith-Joyner.jpg

    Replies: @Pericles, @Unladen Swallow, @james wilson, @Steve Sailer

    I remember seeing a head on photo of her in the 1988 US Olympic Trials where you could see the other competitors. She looked very different physically from all the other female sprinters, which is to say she looked way more muscular. 31 years on and no one has even gotten close to her times in either the 100m or the 200m.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Unladen Swallow

    Yes, Flo Jo was muscular, but she was also unmistakably a woman. Her flowing hair, ridiculous nails, and bikini bottoms all mark her as such.

    It's the lack of bikini bottoms in particular that belie what lies beneath in Semenya's case. Just do a Google image search and look at the photos of him with packs of actual women. You can tell from his hair and clothes that he's not a woman.

    Replies: @Unladen Swallow, @Alden

  191. @Kent Nationalist
    @Anonymous


    Biological Essentialism
     
    What did she mean by this?

    Replies: @Jack D, @Reg Cæsar

    What did she mean by this?

    What did she mean by any of it?

  192. @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    Who cares if anyone’s heard of them? Steve doesn’t pull these out of some obscure journal. This was published in the NYT!

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @guest

    All these similar people I keep quoting in the NYT or WaPo saying similar Look At Me things aren't terribly talented or famous, they are just trying to get more famous without much talent by saying what the Zeitgeist wants to hear.

  193. @prosa123
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The only reason for the existence of most women’s sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    One could take that a step further and say that there should be basketball leagues and sprinting events limited to white men.

    Replies: @OFWHAP, @Reg Cæsar

    One could take that a step further and say that there should be basketball leagues and sprinting events limited to white men.

    Cap Anson lives!

  194. @obwandiyag
    @Corvinus

    Nice point. This organ really does love to hoover up the obscure writings of unknowns and make them sound like the tidal wave of the future.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @guest

    But it is the future, isn’t it? These nobodies cook up nonsense in universities and eventually it gets churned out by media outlets and last in line are the brains of drooling idiots stuffing seeds in soil by hand like me who may disagree but am compelled to take it as just another point of view to consider rather than rounding up a mob to burn them at the stake.

  195. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Tono Bungay

    Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.

    Indeed, the reductio ad absurdum is for there to be no division, for men and women to compete together. But is this actually absurd? The only reason for the existence of most women's sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    There are some events for which women may naturally be better suited, such that women might continue to come out at the top. Women's type gymnastics (particularly the balance beam -- ouch!) very-long-distance swimming, and the graceful figure skating that women do are examples.

    It might be a good idea to just have women compete against men in all sporting events. It might help re-educate them and the Western World that men and women are different.

    Replies: @prosa123, @Jonathan Mason, @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    The only reason for the existence of most women’s sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?

    How does Title IX work into all this?

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @Reg Cæsar

    Yale’s women’s soccer team got some top notch recruits.

  196. @Alden
    @Mr. Anon

    I think that the substitution of the grammatical word gender for actual sex of humans by the early late 60’s feminazis was squeamish Puritanism. They just didn’t want to say sex as it has too many connotations of sexual activity.

    I’ve noticed sex isn’t often used on forms. Just little boxes in front of male female.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I think that the substitution of the grammatical word gender for actual sex of humans by the early late 60’s feminazis was squeamish Puritanism.

    I counter that it was outright fraud.

    Note that where it would count the most, the Equal Rights Amendment, the word is sex. Ambiguity would work against them there.

    • Agree: BB753
  197. @Deckin
    @BB753

    Barry Gibb is still very much alive, FWIW; the rest of the Bee Gees (plus little brother Andy): not so much.

    Replies: @BB753

    Damn! All died of cancer, right?

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @BB753

    Not Andy. He famously drank himself to death, after Victoria Principal dumped him and his records stopped selling. Quite the little meteor, that one.

  198. @El Dato

    “Testosterone: An Unauthorized Biography.”
     
    Who comes up with such really senseless titles?

    There is a major desire to fill minds with meaningless word associations as long as someone can be found who feels oppressed and needs to be de-oppressed, post-humously or even post-genocidally.

    Meanwhile, at MIT Press via Mozilla's Internet Health Report


    Data Feminism
     
    Dis gon be gud.

    Introduction

    Intersectional feminism isn't just about women nor even just about gender. Feminism is about power – who has it and who doesn’t. And in a world in which data is power, and that power is wielded unequally, data feminism can help us understand how it can be challenged and changed.

    by Catherine D'Ignazio and Lauren Klein
     

    Oh good, a wall of text...

    We’ll have more to say about the importance of intersectionality in a few pages, but first let’s find out what happened with Christine Darden and her goal of becoming an aerospace engineer. As Shetterly tells it, Darden heard nothing from her boss but radio silence. [Happens to me all the time and I'm not even intersectional] But two weeks later, she was indeed promoted and transferred to an aerospace engineering group. Darden would go on to conduct ground-breaking research on sonic boom minimization techniques, author more than sixty scientific papers in the field of computational fluid dynamics, and earn her PhD in mechanical engineering-- all while “juggling the duties of Girl Scout mom, Sunday school teacher, trips to music lessons, and homemaker,” she recalls.
     
    The Incredibles! Supermom!!

    For over a decade, this research required that Darden work overtime in the office as well as at home. But she could tell that her scientific accomplishments were still not being recognized at the same level as her male colleagues. Once again, data analysis opened doors for Darden. But this time, Darden wasn’t responsible for the math. Instead, her technical expertise provided a key datapoint for a larger advocacy project.
     
    Okay. Enough already. Scroll on ....

    But data-driven decision-making can be just as easily used to amplify the inequities already entrenched in public life. In Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy, Cathy O’Neill has drawn attention to how predictive policing models use data about property tax delinquency and arrest locations, the very same datasets used for good by the City of New York’s stats team, in order to determine which neighborhoods to patrol more heavily, and which neighborhoods to leave alone. Like city building inspectors, it turns out that police are also in short supply. But in the case of policing, data analysis does not always save lives.
     
    You know what's coming! Overpolicing.

    Because more police are sent into neighborhoods that have had more crimes already reported, the police are more likely to be there when a new crime is committed (or, as in most cases, simply suspected of taking place). And because the police are already there, the people involved--usually poor, and usually people of color-- are more likely to get ticketed, arrested, or even killed.

     

    Because the police are already there, blacks are more likely to get killed. That's why St. Louis might call in the National Guard to keep black people from offing each other.

    This creates what O’Neill calls a “pernicious feedback loop,” amplifying the effects of the already pernicious criminalization of poverty that takes place in the United States. Meanwhile, in more affluent neighborhoods, the very same petty crimes--like jaywalking or littering, for instance-- are far less likely to be prosecuted because the police simply aren’t there to see those crimes take place.
     
    Why aren't the police there? Is it because nobody gets shot in the face because he refuses to move his car?

    This disparity in law enforcement is what led to the creation of White Collar Crime Risk Zones, a satirical map of all of the white collar crime that goes uninvestigated because neighborhoods of color are so overpoliced.

     

    White Collar. Get it? It's not the opposite of Blue Collar. It's the opposite of Black Collar.

    [Unironical red-colored map of the financial district elided]

    Do writers have IQ above 80 nowadays?

    Replies: @guest, @Forbes, @Alfa158, @HammerJack

    the very same datasets used for good by the City of New York’s stats team

    Huh? Who knew the City of New York had a stats team?? Not only the Knicks, Rangers, Yankees, but a stats team!

    Presumably, a reference the Compstat analysis system developed by the NYPD. That pernicious feedback loop led city homicides to go from roughly 2,300 in 1990 to 290 in 2017.

    Some people are prone to find the cloud in every silver lining…

  199. @dearieme
    How the Associated Press, Reuters, NY Times, NPR, Washington Post, and BBC could all leave this CRUCIAL fact out of their reporting is beyond me.

    Because they've discovered that their lies are immune from criticism, whether it be a lie by suggestio false or suppressio veri.

    Replies: @Forbes

    How the Associated Press, Reuters, NY Times, NPR, Washington Post, and BBC could all leave this CRUCIAL fact out of their reporting is beyond me.

    How, you ask? Facts inconvenient to The Narrative will always be ignored.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Forbes

    I think Steve’s question is why this is the narrative.

  200. @Anon
    @Buzz Mohawk

    “Semenya is male. He has X and Y chromosomes in every cell of his body.”

    Red blood cells don’t have chromosomes. The gratuitous cruelty of calling her “he” fits with opinions that fail a Biology 101 understanding of the human body.

    Replies: @Jack D, @TWS, @guest

    “Gotcha! Not EVERY cell!”

    Okay, so its blood has no sex. Except the blood that doesn’t come out once a month with the sex cells it doesn’t have.

  201. anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk


    The only reason for the existence of most women’s sports is so females can have a chance of winning. Most everyone is comfortable with that, but does it really make sense?
     
    How does Title IX work into all this?

    Replies: @anonymous

    Yale’s women’s soccer team got some top notch recruits.

  202. @guest
    @Corvinus

    Who cares if anyone's heard of them? Steve doesn't pull these out of some obscure journal. This was published in the NYT!

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    All these similar people I keep quoting in the NYT or WaPo saying similar Look At Me things aren’t terribly talented or famous, they are just trying to get more famous without much talent by saying what the Zeitgeist wants to hear.

  203. There are two classes in T&F: men and women. There are not a sub 7 feet class and 7+ feet class in basketball, thus that kind of reasoning is irrelevant.

    On the other hand, a lot of events have weight divisions. It would hardly be fair for a 250 lb. super-heavyweight boxer to decide he “identifies” as a bantam-weight so that he can beat up on guys who weigh 115 lbs.

    Maybe women’s events need to be divided into similar “tetosterone divisions.”

    Either that, or start a whole new “Non-Binary Games” in which all 37 genders (or whatever we are up to now) can have their own events.

  204. OT: This just might be the most Jewish-American thing ever sent out over the Internet:

    Anne Applebaum Retweeted

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Cagey Beast

    That was pretty funny. All I can think was Joshua Seidel's response to one of his alt-right opponents...

    "Do you have any idea how neurotic your people are?"

    "Um, yeah..."

  205. @Ola
    @S. Anonyia

    I love women’s track and field. Hard-working, healthy and athletic women who will provide you with hard-working, healthy, athletic and very attractive sons (the daughters will probably look way better than average too).

    On top international level there will be some freaks skewing the odds, but on national and local level in Sweden, I'd prefer T&F girls to almost all other girls.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    My guess is that running races are pretty natural for girls to want to win at. Do little girls spontaneously organize running races ever? I don’t know offhand, but it seems more likely that they would do that than, say, spontaneously organize hit-a-ball-with-a-stick games, which little boys are inclined to do.

    What about horses? Young male horses in a field will race each other. If young female horses are put in their own field, do they race each other? Female horses are about 99% as fast as male horses. Fillies have won a few Kentucky Derbies.

    • Replies: @Ola
    @Steve Sailer

    It is an interesting question. I mainly played with other boys and we (well, I …) organized running races and other spontaneous competitions all the time. I don’t remember the girls doing it, but I remember some of them joining in without hesitations.

    Also, my little sister loved when I took her down to the playground and timed her on short races and measured her jumps. She was much less fond of playing soccer and table tennis with me.

    I have also coached 9-10 year old girls and they were very keen on running against each other, often spontaneously outside of the regular exercises. But they, of course, were a self-selected sample.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Steve Sailer

    I remember there being plenty of running races in the playground at primary school; they were always boys and not girls. Girls would wait to swoon over the victors.

  206. @prosa123
    The main reason why athletes use steroids is not to get stronger, but to speed up recovery time from injuries. That's especially important as they get older.

    Replies: @Ola, @Anon, @dr kill

    No. Just no.

  207. @Anon
    "Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their “commentary” seriously?"

    It was published in the most prestigious newspaper in the world for American normies. That alone lends this pseudoscience credibility.

    "Are you a Jewish woman?"

    Please stop approving Corvinus's comments. He ruins every thread he posts in. It's a serious turn off for me to even want to check your posts anymore. Pretty much the only Unz comments I check in on are the authors who either don't approve his comments or threads where he's likely to get embarrassed and run off, so he avoids them. Seriously. Enough. He's the worst, most embarrassingly incompetent person on this whole site and that says quite a bit.

    Replies: @Len

    Easy to overlook, but note the ‘commenters to ignore’ bucket preceding the comments section. Easy comment ‘curation’. Add commenter id once, applies to all posts.

  208. Ola says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    @Ola

    My guess is that running races are pretty natural for girls to want to win at. Do little girls spontaneously organize running races ever? I don't know offhand, but it seems more likely that they would do that than, say, spontaneously organize hit-a-ball-with-a-stick games, which little boys are inclined to do.

    What about horses? Young male horses in a field will race each other. If young female horses are put in their own field, do they race each other? Female horses are about 99% as fast as male horses. Fillies have won a few Kentucky Derbies.

    Replies: @Ola, @Kent Nationalist

    It is an interesting question. I mainly played with other boys and we (well, I …) organized running races and other spontaneous competitions all the time. I don’t remember the girls doing it, but I remember some of them joining in without hesitations.

    Also, my little sister loved when I took her down to the playground and timed her on short races and measured her jumps. She was much less fond of playing soccer and table tennis with me.

    I have also coached 9-10 year old girls and they were very keen on running against each other, often spontaneously outside of the regular exercises. But they, of course, were a self-selected sample.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Ola

    Thanks.

    Little girls often also like to climb trees. It's been theorized that this is innate self-defense training to be able to get away from land predators.

    Replies: @Anon

  209. @guest
    @Just Saying

    You are a crazy person.

    Let anyone compete in men's sports, i.e. real sports, okay. But the entire point of women's sport is that it's restricted to actual women. Because if they had to compete against men they wouldn't make the cut.

    The cut can't be your subjective appreciation of her supposed womanhood. Because then borderline cases with extra hormone powers would take over women's sports and we wouldn't have women's sports anymore.

    Not that I would care because aside from gymnastics and figure skating I never watch it. But other people do.

    Replies: @TWS

    Beach volleyball. Women’s beach volleyball.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @TWS

    The top US women's beach volleyball player in 2016 had 3 kids.

    Replies: @TWS

    , @guest
    @TWS

    Admittedly, I am surprisingly interested in women's sports where the camera spends a significant portion of its time on close-ups of jiggly bikini bottoms.

    Replies: @Brutusale

  210. I heard Caster Semenya on the BBC news (radio) yesterday. If I hadn’t known who it was, I would have assumed it was a man speaking.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Escher

    There's an extremely tall person on the US women's Olympic basketball team whose affect is: a cool black dude you'd like to have a beer with.

    These tiny number of individuals didn't choose their birth defects, so I sympathize with them. But they mess up high level women's sports pretty badly.

    Replies: @Anon

  211. @Jack D
    @Thea

    At least the German universities were de-Nazified after 1945. Who is going to de-globohomolize our universities, ever?

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Mitchell Porter

    Students

  212. @Forbes
    @dearieme


    How the Associated Press, Reuters, NY Times, NPR, Washington Post, and BBC could all leave this CRUCIAL fact out of their reporting is beyond me.
     
    How, you ask? Facts inconvenient to The Narrative will always be ignored.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    I think Steve’s question is why this is the narrative.

  213. @Escher
    I heard Caster Semenya on the BBC news (radio) yesterday. If I hadn’t known who it was, I would have assumed it was a man speaking.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    There’s an extremely tall person on the US women’s Olympic basketball team whose affect is: a cool black dude you’d like to have a beer with.

    These tiny number of individuals didn’t choose their birth defects, so I sympathize with them. But they mess up high level women’s sports pretty badly.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    On the other hand, you sometimes have very tall and otherwise physically unusual women who are actually women.

    One example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lb3_foWof0

  214. @TWS
    @guest

    Beach volleyball. Women's beach volleyball.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @guest

    The top US women’s beach volleyball player in 2016 had 3 kids.

    • Replies: @TWS
    @Steve Sailer

    Nothing says, "fertile" like children. Plus, I'd think this is a clear case of eugenics.

  215. @Ola
    @Steve Sailer

    It is an interesting question. I mainly played with other boys and we (well, I …) organized running races and other spontaneous competitions all the time. I don’t remember the girls doing it, but I remember some of them joining in without hesitations.

    Also, my little sister loved when I took her down to the playground and timed her on short races and measured her jumps. She was much less fond of playing soccer and table tennis with me.

    I have also coached 9-10 year old girls and they were very keen on running against each other, often spontaneously outside of the regular exercises. But they, of course, were a self-selected sample.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Thanks.

    Little girls often also like to climb trees. It’s been theorized that this is innate self-defense training to be able to get away from land predators.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Steve Sailer


    Little girls often also like to climb trees. It’s been theorized that this is innate self-defense training to be able to get away from land predators.
     
    I never thought about it, but yeah, we spend a lot of time in summer in a large, forested local park, and it's always little girls who are up in the trees. And my wife mentioned that she loved climbing trees as a girl.

    Boys get the broken-off tree branches, stay on the ground, have fake sword fights. Well, actually not always so fake if the parents aren't around. Or they make big piles of branches (a prologue to fort building?).

    Both boys and girls chase pigeons, in the younger ages.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  216. @Steve Sailer
    @Escher

    There's an extremely tall person on the US women's Olympic basketball team whose affect is: a cool black dude you'd like to have a beer with.

    These tiny number of individuals didn't choose their birth defects, so I sympathize with them. But they mess up high level women's sports pretty badly.

    Replies: @Anon

    On the other hand, you sometimes have very tall and otherwise physically unusual women who are actually women.

    One example:

    [MORE]

  217. Anon[324] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Steve Sailer, famous last words, circa 2011:

    I don’t really get the point of Twitter. I prefer Pull to Push in media consumption, but the world cycles back and forth between those two poles.

    So, I am now in the business of pushing tweets out to whomever wants them. Be aware, I’m not going to create any original content for Twitter. Trying to limit myself to 140 characters seems extraordinarily unfeasible. The whole point of blogging, as far as I’m concerned, is that the length is indefinite. I start writing about something and then I find out where the topic leads me.

    So, I’m just going to automatically tweet out the headlines of my iSteve blog posts and you can click on them to go read my blog items.

    Yeah, I know it doesn’t sound terribly exciting. But, if you are in to Twitter, you can sign up to follow me.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/twitter-age/

    Although Steve pumps out original content on Twitter, he manages to repurpose much of it into subsequent blog posts. Twitter is his first draft, with public peer review.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Right, as are comments on other people's blogs. Blog posts might start out as a comment on Marginal Revolution or Slate Star Codex or West Hunter and then expand from there. Or make the jump to a 1200 work Taki's Magazine column.

    The increase in Tweet lengths from 140 to 280 characters made it more often possible for me to come up with a semi-coherent tweet.

  218. @TWS
    @guest

    Beach volleyball. Women's beach volleyball.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @guest

    Admittedly, I am surprisingly interested in women’s sports where the camera spends a significant portion of its time on close-ups of jiggly bikini bottoms.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @guest

    This one's for you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppXDaggCb_0

  219. Anon[324] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Ola

    Thanks.

    Little girls often also like to climb trees. It's been theorized that this is innate self-defense training to be able to get away from land predators.

    Replies: @Anon

    Little girls often also like to climb trees. It’s been theorized that this is innate self-defense training to be able to get away from land predators.

    I never thought about it, but yeah, we spend a lot of time in summer in a large, forested local park, and it’s always little girls who are up in the trees. And my wife mentioned that she loved climbing trees as a girl.

    Boys get the broken-off tree branches, stay on the ground, have fake sword fights. Well, actually not always so fake if the parents aren’t around. Or they make big piles of branches (a prologue to fort building?).

    Both boys and girls chase pigeons, in the younger ages.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    When I was writing about the roots of golf in 2005, I came upon evo psych studies asking kids what they'd do if a lion or a wolf appeared. Girls tended to say they'd climb trees. If offered the choice, boys often preferred to back into a narrow passage among big rocks where they could fight back face to face.

    I dunno how replicated that was, but it seems pretty interesting for playground construction.

    In general, running races seem like something girls naturally find pretty reasonable, whereas a lot of other sports need a lot of Social Construction to get girls fired up about them. E.g., I went to an LPGA golf tournament last week near Koreatown. About half the lady players appeared to be Korean because Koreans have been obsessed with girl golf for about 20 years now. The white women mostly looked like Dad's Girls (not Daddy's Girls who twine daddy around their fingers but hearty girls who like their dads and what their dads do for fun) and appeared to be better athletes on average. The Koreans appeared to be better golfers on average.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  220. @Jack D
    @Thea

    At least the German universities were de-Nazified after 1945. Who is going to de-globohomolize our universities, ever?

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Mitchell Porter

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Mitchell Porter

    Oy!

    This is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

    Members of the Philosophy and Sociology departements can come up with good stuff.

    And universities are definitely NOT meant for "job training". They are meant for "approach & idea" nurturing and exploration of economically less than promising explorations.

    Apprenticeships and technical schools are for "job training".

    When did these things get mixed up?

    Replies: @SFG, @Desiderius

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Mitchell Porter

    Philosophy is not a very pozzed subject yet, at least in Anglo-American universities. Most philosophers are very intelligent White or Jewish men who just want to be left alone to think about modal ersatzism or justification externalism.

    Replies: @SFG

  221. Roger says:

    This NY Times article gives the impression that testosterone is NOT a performance enhancing drug. And that everything we know about male hormones is a myth.

    So why do authorities test for testosterone? Should that be dropped?

    Yes, race winners are not necessarily the ones with the highest testosterone levels. Basketball championships are not necessarily won by the team with the highest average height. But still, height matters, and so does testosterone.

  222. @Unladen Swallow
    @Jonathan Mason

    I remember seeing a head on photo of her in the 1988 US Olympic Trials where you could see the other competitors. She looked very different physically from all the other female sprinters, which is to say she looked way more muscular. 31 years on and no one has even gotten close to her times in either the 100m or the 200m.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    Yes, Flo Jo was muscular, but she was also unmistakably a woman. Her flowing hair, ridiculous nails, and bikini bottoms all mark her as such.

    It’s the lack of bikini bottoms in particular that belie what lies beneath in Semenya’s case. Just do a Google image search and look at the photos of him with packs of actual women. You can tell from his hair and clothes that he’s not a woman.

    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
    @Chrisnonymous

    True, just pointing out the effects of unnaturally high Testosterone on female athletic performance, which Caster has and the women he competes against do not. Even a woman doped up with levels that high like Flojo did blows away the field.

    , @Alden
    @Chrisnonymous

    She had a pretty feminine face till the testosterone spread her jaw bones into a typical square male shape.

    Replies: @guest

  223. A link to the Times’s coverage of this issue in April 2000, via an article written by Andrew Sullivan:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/02/magazine/the-he-hormone.html

  224. @Anon
    @Steve Sailer


    Little girls often also like to climb trees. It’s been theorized that this is innate self-defense training to be able to get away from land predators.
     
    I never thought about it, but yeah, we spend a lot of time in summer in a large, forested local park, and it's always little girls who are up in the trees. And my wife mentioned that she loved climbing trees as a girl.

    Boys get the broken-off tree branches, stay on the ground, have fake sword fights. Well, actually not always so fake if the parents aren't around. Or they make big piles of branches (a prologue to fort building?).

    Both boys and girls chase pigeons, in the younger ages.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    When I was writing about the roots of golf in 2005, I came upon evo psych studies asking kids what they’d do if a lion or a wolf appeared. Girls tended to say they’d climb trees. If offered the choice, boys often preferred to back into a narrow passage among big rocks where they could fight back face to face.

    I dunno how replicated that was, but it seems pretty interesting for playground construction.

    In general, running races seem like something girls naturally find pretty reasonable, whereas a lot of other sports need a lot of Social Construction to get girls fired up about them. E.g., I went to an LPGA golf tournament last week near Koreatown. About half the lady players appeared to be Korean because Koreans have been obsessed with girl golf for about 20 years now. The white women mostly looked like Dad’s Girls (not Daddy’s Girls who twine daddy around their fingers but hearty girls who like their dads and what their dads do for fun) and appeared to be better athletes on average. The Koreans appeared to be better golfers on average.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    The interesting flip side is that the sports women are more generally drawn too are not the ones women follow as dedicated fans. There are countless women who love watching football, but I don't know any women interested in watching track and field, even at the Olympic level. Even though I was a swimmer in my youth, my mother today seems much more interested in watching the Masters than Olympic swimming, despite Phil Mickelson in golf-wear vs Matt Biondi almost naked.

    Replies: @Alden

  225. @Anon
    OT

    Steve Sailer, famous last words, circa 2011:

    I don’t really get the point of Twitter. I prefer Pull to Push in media consumption, but the world cycles back and forth between those two poles.

    So, I am now in the business of pushing tweets out to whomever wants them. Be aware, I’m not going to create any original content for Twitter. Trying to limit myself to 140 characters seems extraordinarily unfeasible. The whole point of blogging, as far as I’m concerned, is that the length is indefinite. I start writing about something and then I find out where the topic leads me.

    So, I’m just going to automatically tweet out the headlines of my iSteve blog posts and you can click on them to go read my blog items.

    Yeah, I know it doesn’t sound terribly exciting. But, if you are in to Twitter, you can sign up to follow me.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/twitter-age/
     
    Although Steve pumps out original content on Twitter, he manages to repurpose much of it into subsequent blog posts. Twitter is his first draft, with public peer review.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Right, as are comments on other people’s blogs. Blog posts might start out as a comment on Marginal Revolution or Slate Star Codex or West Hunter and then expand from there. Or make the jump to a 1200 work Taki’s Magazine column.

    The increase in Tweet lengths from 140 to 280 characters made it more often possible for me to come up with a semi-coherent tweet.

  226. @YetAnotherAnon
    I think the myth of testosterone affecting ANYTHING has already been conclusively demolished by Cordela Fine in Testosterone Rex, and her book will become the 'Mismeasure of Man' de nos jours.

    Incidentally the link to the Caster Samenya story is long gone, but it can be found on Wayback.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160628092447/http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/semenya-has-no-womb-or-ovaries/story-e6frexni-1225771672245

    "World athletics is in crisis over the gender of Caster Semenya after tests revealed the South African world champion has no womb or ovaries.

    The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) is ready to disqualify Semenya from future events and advise her to have immediate surgery because her condition carries grave health risks. They have also not ruled out stripping Semenya of her 800m world championships gold medal.

    Tests conducted during the world athletics championships in Berlin last month, where Semenya's gender became the subject of heated debate following her victory in the 800m, revealed evidence she is a hermaphrodite, someone with both male and female sexual characteristics.

    Semenya, 18, has three times the amount of testosterone that a "normal'' female would have. According to a source closely involved with the Semenya examinations IAAF testing, which included various scans, has revealed she has internal testes - the male sexual organs which produce testosterone."
     
    The story is a sad example of how journalists can't tell the difference between "sex" and "gender" any more, or alternatively are too cowed to use the words correctly. Ms Semenya obviously 'presents' as female, for athletic purposes at any rate. Gender, unlike sex, is arguably a social construct.

    Replies: @BB753, @Desiderius, @Daniel H, @Alden, @Grace Jones

    Words have gender.
    People have sex.
    It’s as simple as that. But the elites have gotten away with polluting even the medical literature with that “gender” nonsense, where every single author and all of their readers damn well ought to know the difference.

  227. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    When I was writing about the roots of golf in 2005, I came upon evo psych studies asking kids what they'd do if a lion or a wolf appeared. Girls tended to say they'd climb trees. If offered the choice, boys often preferred to back into a narrow passage among big rocks where they could fight back face to face.

    I dunno how replicated that was, but it seems pretty interesting for playground construction.

    In general, running races seem like something girls naturally find pretty reasonable, whereas a lot of other sports need a lot of Social Construction to get girls fired up about them. E.g., I went to an LPGA golf tournament last week near Koreatown. About half the lady players appeared to be Korean because Koreans have been obsessed with girl golf for about 20 years now. The white women mostly looked like Dad's Girls (not Daddy's Girls who twine daddy around their fingers but hearty girls who like their dads and what their dads do for fun) and appeared to be better athletes on average. The Koreans appeared to be better golfers on average.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    The interesting flip side is that the sports women are more generally drawn too are not the ones women follow as dedicated fans. There are countless women who love watching football, but I don’t know any women interested in watching track and field, even at the Olympic level. Even though I was a swimmer in my youth, my mother today seems much more interested in watching the Masters than Olympic swimming, despite Phil Mickelson in golf-wear vs Matt Biondi almost naked.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Chrisnonymous

    Only spectator sports I like are figure skating and ballet.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

  228. @El Dato

    “Testosterone: An Unauthorized Biography.”
     
    Who comes up with such really senseless titles?

    There is a major desire to fill minds with meaningless word associations as long as someone can be found who feels oppressed and needs to be de-oppressed, post-humously or even post-genocidally.

    Meanwhile, at MIT Press via Mozilla's Internet Health Report


    Data Feminism
     
    Dis gon be gud.

    Introduction

    Intersectional feminism isn't just about women nor even just about gender. Feminism is about power – who has it and who doesn’t. And in a world in which data is power, and that power is wielded unequally, data feminism can help us understand how it can be challenged and changed.

    by Catherine D'Ignazio and Lauren Klein
     

    Oh good, a wall of text...

    We’ll have more to say about the importance of intersectionality in a few pages, but first let’s find out what happened with Christine Darden and her goal of becoming an aerospace engineer. As Shetterly tells it, Darden heard nothing from her boss but radio silence. [Happens to me all the time and I'm not even intersectional] But two weeks later, she was indeed promoted and transferred to an aerospace engineering group. Darden would go on to conduct ground-breaking research on sonic boom minimization techniques, author more than sixty scientific papers in the field of computational fluid dynamics, and earn her PhD in mechanical engineering-- all while “juggling the duties of Girl Scout mom, Sunday school teacher, trips to music lessons, and homemaker,” she recalls.
     
    The Incredibles! Supermom!!

    For over a decade, this research required that Darden work overtime in the office as well as at home. But she could tell that her scientific accomplishments were still not being recognized at the same level as her male colleagues. Once again, data analysis opened doors for Darden. But this time, Darden wasn’t responsible for the math. Instead, her technical expertise provided a key datapoint for a larger advocacy project.
     
    Okay. Enough already. Scroll on ....

    But data-driven decision-making can be just as easily used to amplify the inequities already entrenched in public life. In Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy, Cathy O’Neill has drawn attention to how predictive policing models use data about property tax delinquency and arrest locations, the very same datasets used for good by the City of New York’s stats team, in order to determine which neighborhoods to patrol more heavily, and which neighborhoods to leave alone. Like city building inspectors, it turns out that police are also in short supply. But in the case of policing, data analysis does not always save lives.
     
    You know what's coming! Overpolicing.

    Because more police are sent into neighborhoods that have had more crimes already reported, the police are more likely to be there when a new crime is committed (or, as in most cases, simply suspected of taking place). And because the police are already there, the people involved--usually poor, and usually people of color-- are more likely to get ticketed, arrested, or even killed.

     

    Because the police are already there, blacks are more likely to get killed. That's why St. Louis might call in the National Guard to keep black people from offing each other.

    This creates what O’Neill calls a “pernicious feedback loop,” amplifying the effects of the already pernicious criminalization of poverty that takes place in the United States. Meanwhile, in more affluent neighborhoods, the very same petty crimes--like jaywalking or littering, for instance-- are far less likely to be prosecuted because the police simply aren’t there to see those crimes take place.
     
    Why aren't the police there? Is it because nobody gets shot in the face because he refuses to move his car?

    This disparity in law enforcement is what led to the creation of White Collar Crime Risk Zones, a satirical map of all of the white collar crime that goes uninvestigated because neighborhoods of color are so overpoliced.

     

    White Collar. Get it? It's not the opposite of Blue Collar. It's the opposite of Black Collar.

    [Unironical red-colored map of the financial district elided]

    Do writers have IQ above 80 nowadays?

    Replies: @guest, @Forbes, @Alfa158, @HammerJack

    This is a bit of mythology that some Blacks subscribe to. They believe that Whites and Blacks commit crimes at the same rate but because the police are concentrated in Black neighborhoods, a disproportionate number of Blacks are arrested and convicted. In some cases it is even believed that the murder rates are the same but some White murders are falsified by the authorities as suicides or auto accidents to depress the stats on White murder.

    • Replies: @guest
    @Alfa158

    I always wondered where the white bodies of unreported murder victims in white neighborhoods end up, and also why their family and communities don't miss them. Until I was shown the secrets of the Forbidden Zone.

    , @Ghost of Bull Moose
    @Alfa158


    In some cases it is even believed that the murder rates are the same but some White murders are falsified by the authorities as suicides or auto accidents to depress the stats on White murder.
     
    They watch a lot of movies.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEbd_c977Qg
    , @Alden
    @Alfa158

    Before the Hispanics thanks be to God ran them out, the blacks in Watts and S Central Los Angeles were firmly convinced that White suburbanites were commuting to their neighborhoods to dump trash and yard prunings in the alleys of Watts and S Central

    Turns out it was Hispanic gardeners and the Hispanic guys who clean out garages dumping the trash in the alleys.

  229. @Cagey Beast
    OT: This just might be the most Jewish-American thing ever sent out over the Internet:

    Anne Applebaum Retweeted

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1124102220079824896

    Replies: @SFG

    That was pretty funny. All I can think was Joshua Seidel’s response to one of his alt-right opponents…

    “Do you have any idea how neurotic your people are?”

    “Um, yeah…”

  230. @Alden
    @Corvinus

    As long as the liberals focus on trans gender they aren’t lowering the age of consent to 12 then 10 then 8 then 6 then 4.

    I believe that’s their ultimate goal.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    As long as the liberals focus on trans gender they aren’t lowering the age of consent to 12 then 10 then 8 then 6 then 4.

    I believe that’s their ultimate goal.

    Unfortunately I suspect you’re correct.

  231. She’s a woman, but if Serena Williams does any more ‘roids her testicles are going to descend.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    With all those male hormones she takes it was a wonder she was able to conceive and bring a baby to term. No wonder she had a bad time. If she had a bad time or just decided to use normal childbirth to spout more Blacketty black grievances

    The Drs probably had to inject massive amounts of 3 kinds of female ovulation hormones, lutenizing , follicle stimulating hormones and estrogen for at least a year to restore her eggs and ovaries to normal

    True females tend to gain weight after 35. Female athletes add muscle mass to the fat and the result is truly awful. I see pictures of her on magazine covers. How can she run around a tennis court at her weight? At least she’s well proportioned, massive female hips and thighs and massive male shoulders and chest.

    Replies: @Unladen Swallow

  232. “The Myth of Testosterone Gender”

    “experts”

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @eah

    For some, the Dark Ages are an ideological land of milk & honey.

    This would explain the permanent War on Schools.

    , @Desiderius
    @eah

    Isn’t he the global warming heretic from a few years ago? Guess he’s finally learned to love Big Sister.

    , @Peripatetic Commenter
    @eah

    I suggest that that man start looking for his own testicles because he seems to have misplaced them.

  233. @ic1000
    Katrina Karkazis and Rebecca M. Jordan-Young are tenured professors at CCNY and Barnard College, respectively. These prominent public intellectuals each have high pay, social status, and complete job security. So stupidity is not an excuse.

    The NYT Op-Ed they co-authored falls in the center of their areas of claimed expertise. So ignorance is not an excuse.

    I have a certain admiration for them. It isn't easy to mislead an educated audience, without penning outright lies.

    One of their techniques is simple -- discuss a hormone and its effects without mentioning any numbers. To anybody familiar with clinical chemistry, this is a bizarre choice. It must not strike the typical NYT reader that way.

    The Mayo clinic's page on testosterone was the first search result, so I'll use that.

    Total Testosterone Reference Values
    ("Reference Values" means "the normal range for the people in question".)
    ("Bioavailable" as well as "total" testosterone is discussed; the numbers are different but the overall picture is the same.)

    Females 17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL
    Females 19+ years old: 8-60 ng/dL

    Males 17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
    Males 19+ years old: 240-950 ng/dL

    The range of normal values in females and males do not overlap.
    A high-T healthy female has about four times less testosterone than a low-T healthy male.

    This is the missing context for the garbage paragraphs of Karzakis' and Jordan-Young's essay. Alas, that's most of their writing. Here is one.

    Labeling testosterone the male sex hormone suggests that it is restricted to men and is alien to women’s bodies, and obfuscates the fact that women also produce and require testosterone as part of healthy functioning. Even the earliest hormone researchers understood that testosterone has wide-ranging effects on metabolism, liver function, bones, muscle, skin and the brain in both sexes.
     
    * No standard reference suggest testosterone is restricted to men or alien to women's bodies.
    * No standard reference suggests that testosterone is not a part of healthy functioning for women.
    * Current as well as "earliest" researchers understand that testosterone has wide-ranging effects.

    Karzakis and Jordan-Young link the abstract of a paywalled 2004 study from The Journal of Sports Sciences, then assert that it shows the lack of effect of testosterone on athleticism.

    After converting from nmol/L to ng/dL, here is the key T-related finding of that article.

    "The concentration of mean serum total testosterone of 522±156 ng/dL in road cyclists was 21% lower (P <0.05) than those of 660±196 ng/dL and 660±182 ng/dL recorded in weightlifters and controls, respectively."

    The T levels in all three sets of young, healthy males are in the middle of the reference range for males.

    In the context of the claims made in the essay, this citation is, in my opinion, dishonest.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Corvinus, @Keypusher, @S. Anonyia, @res, @International Jew, @Buzz Mohawk, @Abe, @guest, @Hypnotoad666

    Does it concern the NYT at all that these authors are using this piece to pimp their book?

    Thus they have a direct financial incentive to make unsupported provocative claims without disclosing the contrary data.

    Time and again, the NYT publishes transparent pseudo-science. Apparently, they feel it’s okay to deliberately spread misinformation about medical issues so long as: (1) it promotes “woke”thinking; and (2) they can maintain plausible deniability by designating it as an “op-ed.”

    It’s a shamefully dishonest organization. It wouldn’t bother me so much except I know there are many people (like my mother for instance) who still think it’s the authoritative “paper of record.”

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Hypnotoad666


    It’s a shamefully dishonest organization. It wouldn’t bother me so much except I know there are many people (like my mother for instance) who still think it’s the authoritative “paper of record.”
     
    The Times is the shamefully dishonest paper of record.
  234. @International Jew
    @Anonymous


    ‘Caster’ of course implies castrate – from the Latin meaning ‘pure’ – in this case purity means removal of the ‘pollution‘

     

    Where did you get that from? According to Wiktionary, "castrate" comes from the Latin word for "to cut". https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/castrate

    Replies: @JimS

  235. @Chrisnonymous
    @Unladen Swallow

    Yes, Flo Jo was muscular, but she was also unmistakably a woman. Her flowing hair, ridiculous nails, and bikini bottoms all mark her as such.

    It's the lack of bikini bottoms in particular that belie what lies beneath in Semenya's case. Just do a Google image search and look at the photos of him with packs of actual women. You can tell from his hair and clothes that he's not a woman.

    Replies: @Unladen Swallow, @Alden

    True, just pointing out the effects of unnaturally high Testosterone on female athletic performance, which Caster has and the women he competes against do not. Even a woman doped up with levels that high like Flojo did blows away the field.

  236. @Alfa158
    @El Dato

    This is a bit of mythology that some Blacks subscribe to. They believe that Whites and Blacks commit crimes at the same rate but because the police are concentrated in Black neighborhoods, a disproportionate number of Blacks are arrested and convicted. In some cases it is even believed that the murder rates are the same but some White murders are falsified by the authorities as suicides or auto accidents to depress the stats on White murder.

    Replies: @guest, @Ghost of Bull Moose, @Alden

    I always wondered where the white bodies of unreported murder victims in white neighborhoods end up, and also why their family and communities don’t miss them. Until I was shown the secrets of the Forbidden Zone.

  237. sb says:

    I have a lot of sympathy for Semenya’s position :
    She holds no world records so the argument that her performances are “too good ” is arguably fallacious.
    (Yes I know that most women’s world records are doping records but IAAF accepts them as legit )
    The IAAF – like most international bodies -especially those with a one country one vote system -is not exactly a reputable organisation . The last president is a crook and this year’s World Champs are in Qatar which says it all

    Furthermore if she (?) was American I have no doubt that her case would be taken up by the usual agenda setters (NYT, CNN etc etc etc ) as an affront to human rights ,civil liberties , sexism racism heteronormativism (?) etc etc etc
    They normally win their cases

    Mind you I’m not neccessarily saying the decision is wrong but just that her supporters don’t have the power and influence that others have which may well have had a different result

  238. @peterike
    Rebecca M. Jordan-Young looks sort of like what you'd expect.

    https://www.barnard.edu/sites/default/files/styles/top_news_view__325x240_/public/news/images/9323535110_96f72a8096_b.jpg?itok=Vm4DcNgl

    Katrina Karkazis most definitely does not.

    https://www.gf.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Katrina-Karkazis.jpg

    Replies: @SafeNow

    If I had a son in college dating a gender-studies major (or a major in any of the grievance-studies concentrations), I would feel he is making a mistake. I would worry. I would hope the relationship would end, and he would meet a gal studying to be something other than contentious.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @SafeNow

    "If I had a son in college dating a gender-studies major (or a major in any of the grievance-studies concentrations), I would feel he is making a mistake."

    Probably so, but it might depend on his tastes. Forty years ago the late Nancy Friday wrote a trilogy of books about sexual fantasies - one of her interviewees, a dom who called himself 'The Master Rod' said that 'feminists make the best slaves'.

    Replies: @SFG

  239. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/divanificent/status/1123564195205787649

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Alfa158, @Jack D, @guest, @Forbes, @El Dato

    “I once got into a discussion with Nigerian bodybuilders and quickly learned how Blackness is incompatible with binary notions of gender”

  240. @Jonathan Mason
    @S. Anonyia


    Any man who thinks women shouldn’t compete just because they will never measure up to the men or to the men masquerading as women is something of a sore loser. I’ve never met a man who did sports on a decent level who also mocked women’s sports.
     
    I have no objection to women participating in sports. My two daughters were both playing soccer this morning in mixed teams.

    However women's track and field loses all appeal as a televised spectacle if it is dominated by men who are competing as women because they qualify on some kind of technicality that makes them unable to compete with men.

    The women's 100 meter world record has been held for many years by the late Flo-Jo who was strongly suspected of steroid use and drugs including testosterone and human growth hormone before she died in her sleep from a seizure.

    I don't know if the rumors are true, but you wouldn't want her to get you in a headlock with those thighs.

    https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1205/title-ix-top-40-athletes/images/florence-Griffith-Joyner.jpg

    Replies: @Pericles, @Unladen Swallow, @james wilson, @Steve Sailer

    They were all using. All eight finalist in one world championship race in which she appeared had braces. HGH causes growth in more than just muscle, and teeth are eventually left separated.

    • LOL: Alden
  241. @eah
    "The Myth of Testosterone Gender"

    "experts"

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5VOQjzXkAA3fbC.jpg

    Replies: @El Dato, @Desiderius, @Peripatetic Commenter

    For some, the Dark Ages are an ideological land of milk & honey.

    This would explain the permanent War on Schools.

  242. @Anon
    @Corvinus

    Corvinus says:

    • Troll: ic1000

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag


    Steve, you should consider paying this guy.

    Replies: @L Woods, @Mr. Anon

    Corvinus says:

    • Troll: ic1000

    • Replies: , , , , , , ,

    Steve, you should consider paying this guy.

    Why do we comment here?

    To make our opinions known – to sway the opinion of others. The idiot known as “Corvinus” wants to influence people who visit this site. I want to make sure he doesn’t. I want to influence anyone who reads him to reject what he says and believe what I say. Because I’m right and he’s wrong. Don’t you want to do the same?

    This is a kind of war, you know. And as Trotsky once said……………………

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Mr. Anon

    "The idiot known as “Corvinus” wants to influence people who visit this site. "

    His schtick is more to drag people in to long, interminable debates where he shifts position/asks another three questions each time he's logically nailed. He's wasting people's time because he argues in bad faith. I don't bother responding (used to but then realised it was pointless) other than dropping the odd 'troll' coment, but we're only allowed one an hour.

    , @SFG
    @Mr. Anon

    I disagree. If everyone agrees you spin further and further out to the extremes and away from anything normal people would think. This happens as well on the left--where did six-year-old drag queens come from?

    I think it probably helps for people to have an actual leftist to disagree with. The Contrapoints 'lady' had the point that nobody in the seminar s/he was in could mount a challenge to Hayek because they were so used to debating fine points of leftism.

    I suspect this is why Steve hasn't banned him.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Mr. Anon

    , @ic1000
    @Mr. Anon

    > The idiot known as “Corvinus” wants to influence people who visit this site.

    Not so fast.

    The assumption on this fellow (Tiny Duck and obwandiyag too) is that he is trying to persuade to the left. But it's easier for a smart person to write in the style of somebody less-than-clever, than vice versa. So, it's quite possible that some or all of this cohort are false-flag righty trolls.

    Or, they may be non-political, gaining satisfaction from being annoying, along the lines of Monty Python's Argument Clinic.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  243. @Mitchell Porter

    Oy!

    This is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

    Members of the Philosophy and Sociology departements can come up with good stuff.

    And universities are definitely NOT meant for “job training”. They are meant for “approach & idea” nurturing and exploration of economically less than promising explorations.

    Apprenticeships and technical schools are for “job training”.

    When did these things get mixed up?

    • Replies: @SFG
    @El Dato

    When the left took control and started dragging the kids to the right, the right understandably grew a lot less fond of universities.

    , @Desiderius
    @El Dato

    Conservatives fell for libertarian critiques of the New Deal, then libertarianism leaked out from economics into general principles and became an ethos of nonjudgmentalism, which made most of the Liberal Arts moot, at which point Conservatives ceased conserving anything worthwhile.

    All that was left to study was “job training” and “informational texts” (see Common Core) since one still had to go to college for the status marker.

    Shorter version: America has traded her cultural birthright for a mess of pottage.

  244. @Jonathan Mason
    @S. Anonyia


    Any man who thinks women shouldn’t compete just because they will never measure up to the men or to the men masquerading as women is something of a sore loser. I’ve never met a man who did sports on a decent level who also mocked women’s sports.
     
    I have no objection to women participating in sports. My two daughters were both playing soccer this morning in mixed teams.

    However women's track and field loses all appeal as a televised spectacle if it is dominated by men who are competing as women because they qualify on some kind of technicality that makes them unable to compete with men.

    The women's 100 meter world record has been held for many years by the late Flo-Jo who was strongly suspected of steroid use and drugs including testosterone and human growth hormone before she died in her sleep from a seizure.

    I don't know if the rumors are true, but you wouldn't want her to get you in a headlock with those thighs.

    https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1205/title-ix-top-40-athletes/images/florence-Griffith-Joyner.jpg

    Replies: @Pericles, @Unladen Swallow, @james wilson, @Steve Sailer

    I saw Flo-Jo win the silver medal at the L.A. Coliseum in the 1984 Olympics when she was much more slender. She lost to a suddenly very fast NFL player’s wife whose biceps were twice the diameter of hers. The next big race was the 1987 World Championship. Flo-Jo came in second to a muscular East German. She was likely the fastest clean 200m woman in the world, but she was still working in the nail salon. (Flo-Jo was really good at creative nail designs.) So in the fall of 1987 she gave Ben Johnson a call …

  245. @Steve Sailer
    @Ola

    My guess is that running races are pretty natural for girls to want to win at. Do little girls spontaneously organize running races ever? I don't know offhand, but it seems more likely that they would do that than, say, spontaneously organize hit-a-ball-with-a-stick games, which little boys are inclined to do.

    What about horses? Young male horses in a field will race each other. If young female horses are put in their own field, do they race each other? Female horses are about 99% as fast as male horses. Fillies have won a few Kentucky Derbies.

    Replies: @Ola, @Kent Nationalist

    I remember there being plenty of running races in the playground at primary school; they were always boys and not girls. Girls would wait to swoon over the victors.

  246. @Mitchell Porter

    Philosophy is not a very pozzed subject yet, at least in Anglo-American universities. Most philosophers are very intelligent White or Jewish men who just want to be left alone to think about modal ersatzism or justification externalism.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Kent Nationalist

    I keep reading about how bad philosophy is in all these liberal articles. I suspect this is much of the reason why.

    I'm surprised it's held out longer than the STEM fields, honestly.

  247. @SafeNow
    @peterike

    If I had a son in college dating a gender-studies major (or a major in any of the grievance-studies concentrations), I would feel he is making a mistake. I would worry. I would hope the relationship would end, and he would meet a gal studying to be something other than contentious.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    “If I had a son in college dating a gender-studies major (or a major in any of the grievance-studies concentrations), I would feel he is making a mistake.”

    Probably so, but it might depend on his tastes. Forty years ago the late Nancy Friday wrote a trilogy of books about sexual fantasies – one of her interviewees, a dom who called himself ‘The Master Rod’ said that ‘feminists make the best slaves‘.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Eh...I wouldn't advise it.

    Yes you can get kinky sex (and document consent out the wazoo!) but if you want kids it's a really bad idea. Plus if things go south she won't hesitate to make false rape accusations or take your stuff in a divorce.

  248. @Mr. Anon
    @Anon


    Corvinus says:

    • Troll: ic1000

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag

    Steve, you should consider paying this guy.
     
    Why do we comment here?

    To make our opinions known - to sway the opinion of others. The idiot known as "Corvinus" wants to influence people who visit this site. I want to make sure he doesn't. I want to influence anyone who reads him to reject what he says and believe what I say. Because I'm right and he's wrong. Don't you want to do the same?

    This is a kind of war, you know. And as Trotsky once said........................

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @SFG, @ic1000

    “The idiot known as “Corvinus” wants to influence people who visit this site. “

    His schtick is more to drag people in to long, interminable debates where he shifts position/asks another three questions each time he’s logically nailed. He’s wasting people’s time because he argues in bad faith. I don’t bother responding (used to but then realised it was pointless) other than dropping the odd ‘troll’ coment, but we’re only allowed one an hour.

  249. @El Dato
    @Mitchell Porter

    Oy!

    This is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

    Members of the Philosophy and Sociology departements can come up with good stuff.

    And universities are definitely NOT meant for "job training". They are meant for "approach & idea" nurturing and exploration of economically less than promising explorations.

    Apprenticeships and technical schools are for "job training".

    When did these things get mixed up?

    Replies: @SFG, @Desiderius

    When the left took control and started dragging the kids to the right, the right understandably grew a lot less fond of universities.

  250. @Kent Nationalist
    @Mitchell Porter

    Philosophy is not a very pozzed subject yet, at least in Anglo-American universities. Most philosophers are very intelligent White or Jewish men who just want to be left alone to think about modal ersatzism or justification externalism.

    Replies: @SFG

    I keep reading about how bad philosophy is in all these liberal articles. I suspect this is much of the reason why.

    I’m surprised it’s held out longer than the STEM fields, honestly.

  251. @YetAnotherAnon
    @SafeNow

    "If I had a son in college dating a gender-studies major (or a major in any of the grievance-studies concentrations), I would feel he is making a mistake."

    Probably so, but it might depend on his tastes. Forty years ago the late Nancy Friday wrote a trilogy of books about sexual fantasies - one of her interviewees, a dom who called himself 'The Master Rod' said that 'feminists make the best slaves'.

    Replies: @SFG

    Eh…I wouldn’t advise it.

    Yes you can get kinky sex (and document consent out the wazoo!) but if you want kids it’s a really bad idea. Plus if things go south she won’t hesitate to make false rape accusations or take your stuff in a divorce.

  252. @guest
    @Anonymous

    Blackness is incompatible with binary notions of gender, no homo.

    Replies: @Alice in Wonderland

    Blackness is incompatible with binary notions of gender, no homo.

    Wouldn’t this notion offend the average normal black person? From what I have seen, most black Americans anyway, do not much appreciate the crazy white libs using blacks as the excuse to promote every crazy thing the libs come up with.

  253. @Steve Sailer
    @TWS

    The top US women's beach volleyball player in 2016 had 3 kids.

    Replies: @TWS

    Nothing says, “fertile” like children. Plus, I’d think this is a clear case of eugenics.

  254. anon[316] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Just Saying

    Except he's not a woman; he's a man with malformed genitals. Actual women should not have to compete with him, and he shouldn't have to alter his body chemistry. The fact that he has low androgen uptake in certain parts of his physiology is not the rest of the world's problem.

    Replies: @anon

    Except he’s not a woman; he’s a man with malformed genitals. Actual women should not have to compete with him, and he shouldn’t have to alter his body chemistry. The fact that he has low androgen uptake in certain parts of his physiology is not the rest of the world’s problem.

    exactly

    we don’t have to hate or ostracize this person like might have been done in times past but how about let’s worry about the 99% being treated fairly instead of the 1% being allowed an unfair advantage

    i suspect this kind of thing has been pushed by jews because they are a tiny minority in every country they inhabit and they have no concern for the majority’s rights or interests

  255. @Alfa158
    @El Dato

    This is a bit of mythology that some Blacks subscribe to. They believe that Whites and Blacks commit crimes at the same rate but because the police are concentrated in Black neighborhoods, a disproportionate number of Blacks are arrested and convicted. In some cases it is even believed that the murder rates are the same but some White murders are falsified by the authorities as suicides or auto accidents to depress the stats on White murder.

    Replies: @guest, @Ghost of Bull Moose, @Alden

    In some cases it is even believed that the murder rates are the same but some White murders are falsified by the authorities as suicides or auto accidents to depress the stats on White murder.

    They watch a lot of movies.

  256. SFG says:
    @Mr. Anon
    @Anon


    Corvinus says:

    • Troll: ic1000

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag

    Steve, you should consider paying this guy.
     
    Why do we comment here?

    To make our opinions known - to sway the opinion of others. The idiot known as "Corvinus" wants to influence people who visit this site. I want to make sure he doesn't. I want to influence anyone who reads him to reject what he says and believe what I say. Because I'm right and he's wrong. Don't you want to do the same?

    This is a kind of war, you know. And as Trotsky once said........................

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @SFG, @ic1000

    I disagree. If everyone agrees you spin further and further out to the extremes and away from anything normal people would think. This happens as well on the left–where did six-year-old drag queens come from?

    I think it probably helps for people to have an actual leftist to disagree with. The Contrapoints ‘lady’ had the point that nobody in the seminar s/he was in could mount a challenge to Hayek because they were so used to debating fine points of leftism.

    I suspect this is why Steve hasn’t banned him.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @SFG

    Steve himself is no conventional righty. We could use a competent prog, but so could everyone. They’re as rare nowadays as Republican professors.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    , @Mr. Anon
    @SFG


    I think it probably helps for people to have an actual leftist to disagree with.
     
    Sure it does. It would help if they were honest though. Corvinus isn't. He claims he is not left-wing, but he pretty clearly is. He doesn't have a thought in his head he didn't hear on NPR.

    I suspect this is why Steve hasn’t banned him.
     
    I suspect Steve hasn't banned him because Steve is a fair-minded guy who believes in free speech, not out of any kind of tactical calculation.

    By the way, I'm not calling for him to be banned, nor have I ever done so here. I just don't believe he should go unrebutted, when that's warranted.

    The argument he made - what does it matter what these two women wrote? - has often been made by others - Art Deco, for example. Corvinus makes it in bad faith because he agrees with the progressive agenda and whatever it takes to bring it about. Art Deco makes it because he is a smug dolt.

    What does it matter? Given that we are descending into full-on clown-world, it clearly matters a lot. Or rather it did. The normalization of deviancy didn't come from nowhere. It came about because it was relentlessly pushed in Universities and in the media going back decades. It came about because ostensible "experts" promoted it from the commanding heights of the public media - i.e. in places like the New York Times. In my opinion, people who dismiss such propaganda with a "what does it matter what some obscure intellectual thinks about X......." are idiots. Marx and Lenin were both once obscure intellectuals.

    It matters.
  257. @Mr. Anon
    @Anon


    Corvinus says:

    • Troll: ic1000

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag

    Steve, you should consider paying this guy.
     
    Why do we comment here?

    To make our opinions known - to sway the opinion of others. The idiot known as "Corvinus" wants to influence people who visit this site. I want to make sure he doesn't. I want to influence anyone who reads him to reject what he says and believe what I say. Because I'm right and he's wrong. Don't you want to do the same?

    This is a kind of war, you know. And as Trotsky once said........................

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @SFG, @ic1000

    > The idiot known as “Corvinus” wants to influence people who visit this site.

    Not so fast.

    The assumption on this fellow (Tiny Duck and obwandiyag too) is that he is trying to persuade to the left. But it’s easier for a smart person to write in the style of somebody less-than-clever, than vice versa. So, it’s quite possible that some or all of this cohort are false-flag righty trolls.

    Or, they may be non-political, gaining satisfaction from being annoying, along the lines of Monty Python’s Argument Clinic.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @ic1000

    He’s not trying to persuade, he’s trying to bully (and thankfully falling pathetically short). It is evidently all he knows. Likewise with Nick Diaz.

  258. anon[316] • Disclaimer says:

    “The Myth of Testosterone”

    i remember being a sophomore in high school on the football team and at the end of each practice we’d have to run sets of 50-80 yard sprints and we were separated into 2 groups – linemen and skilled postion players. Towards the beginning of the season i would finish most of these sprints towards the front of the pack of linemen but nothing really special and then what must have been about 4-6 weeks later i’m finishing these sprints consistently 10-yards ahead of the nearest competitors and then coaches tell me to run these sprints with the skill position players. I don’t recall that i put on any great muscle mass during this time but my endurance and stamina and ability to recover seemed to be increasing daily – considering my age at the time the most likely explanation would seem to be an increase in endogenous testosterone

  259. @eah
    "The Myth of Testosterone Gender"

    "experts"

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5VOQjzXkAA3fbC.jpg

    Replies: @El Dato, @Desiderius, @Peripatetic Commenter

    Isn’t he the global warming heretic from a few years ago? Guess he’s finally learned to love Big Sister.

  260. @El Dato
    @Mitchell Porter

    Oy!

    This is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

    Members of the Philosophy and Sociology departements can come up with good stuff.

    And universities are definitely NOT meant for "job training". They are meant for "approach & idea" nurturing and exploration of economically less than promising explorations.

    Apprenticeships and technical schools are for "job training".

    When did these things get mixed up?

    Replies: @SFG, @Desiderius

    Conservatives fell for libertarian critiques of the New Deal, then libertarianism leaked out from economics into general principles and became an ethos of nonjudgmentalism, which made most of the Liberal Arts moot, at which point Conservatives ceased conserving anything worthwhile.

    All that was left to study was “job training” and “informational texts” (see Common Core) since one still had to go to college for the status marker.

    Shorter version: America has traded her cultural birthright for a mess of pottage.

  261. @ic1000
    @Mr. Anon

    > The idiot known as “Corvinus” wants to influence people who visit this site.

    Not so fast.

    The assumption on this fellow (Tiny Duck and obwandiyag too) is that he is trying to persuade to the left. But it's easier for a smart person to write in the style of somebody less-than-clever, than vice versa. So, it's quite possible that some or all of this cohort are false-flag righty trolls.

    Or, they may be non-political, gaining satisfaction from being annoying, along the lines of Monty Python's Argument Clinic.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    He’s not trying to persuade, he’s trying to bully (and thankfully falling pathetically short). It is evidently all he knows. Likewise with Nick Diaz.

  262. @SFG
    @Mr. Anon

    I disagree. If everyone agrees you spin further and further out to the extremes and away from anything normal people would think. This happens as well on the left--where did six-year-old drag queens come from?

    I think it probably helps for people to have an actual leftist to disagree with. The Contrapoints 'lady' had the point that nobody in the seminar s/he was in could mount a challenge to Hayek because they were so used to debating fine points of leftism.

    I suspect this is why Steve hasn't banned him.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Mr. Anon

    Steve himself is no conventional righty. We could use a competent prog, but so could everyone. They’re as rare nowadays as Republican professors.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Desiderius

    My impression from being on Marginal Revolution is that the Left is out of arguments. It's all pretty much MUH FEELZ at this point. I can see the rationale for medical coverage vs. F-35's, but you can't even get them to swallow a $5,000 deductible. Or acknowledge the insanity of awarding status based on victimhood vs. achievement, or the shortsightedness of inviting in all the people who've soiled their own dens back home.

  263. @Desiderius
    @SFG

    Steve himself is no conventional righty. We could use a competent prog, but so could everyone. They’re as rare nowadays as Republican professors.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    My impression from being on Marginal Revolution is that the Left is out of arguments. It’s all pretty much MUH FEELZ at this point. I can see the rationale for medical coverage vs. F-35’s, but you can’t even get them to swallow a $5,000 deductible. Or acknowledge the insanity of awarding status based on victimhood vs. achievement, or the shortsightedness of inviting in all the people who’ve soiled their own dens back home.

  264. @SFG
    @Mr. Anon

    I disagree. If everyone agrees you spin further and further out to the extremes and away from anything normal people would think. This happens as well on the left--where did six-year-old drag queens come from?

    I think it probably helps for people to have an actual leftist to disagree with. The Contrapoints 'lady' had the point that nobody in the seminar s/he was in could mount a challenge to Hayek because they were so used to debating fine points of leftism.

    I suspect this is why Steve hasn't banned him.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Mr. Anon

    I think it probably helps for people to have an actual leftist to disagree with.

    Sure it does. It would help if they were honest though. Corvinus isn’t. He claims he is not left-wing, but he pretty clearly is. He doesn’t have a thought in his head he didn’t hear on NPR.

    I suspect this is why Steve hasn’t banned him.

    I suspect Steve hasn’t banned him because Steve is a fair-minded guy who believes in free speech, not out of any kind of tactical calculation.

    By the way, I’m not calling for him to be banned, nor have I ever done so here. I just don’t believe he should go unrebutted, when that’s warranted.

    The argument he made – what does it matter what these two women wrote? – has often been made by others – Art Deco, for example. Corvinus makes it in bad faith because he agrees with the progressive agenda and whatever it takes to bring it about. Art Deco makes it because he is a smug dolt.

    What does it matter? Given that we are descending into full-on clown-world, it clearly matters a lot. Or rather it did. The normalization of deviancy didn’t come from nowhere. It came about because it was relentlessly pushed in Universities and in the media going back decades. It came about because ostensible “experts” promoted it from the commanding heights of the public media – i.e. in places like the New York Times. In my opinion, people who dismiss such propaganda with a “what does it matter what some obscure intellectual thinks about X…….” are idiots. Marx and Lenin were both once obscure intellectuals.

    It matters.

  265. @Hypnotoad666
    @ic1000

    Does it concern the NYT at all that these authors are using this piece to pimp their book?

    Thus they have a direct financial incentive to make unsupported provocative claims without disclosing the contrary data.

    Time and again, the NYT publishes transparent pseudo-science. Apparently, they feel it's okay to deliberately spread misinformation about medical issues so long as: (1) it promotes "woke"thinking; and (2) they can maintain plausible deniability by designating it as an "op-ed."

    It's a shamefully dishonest organization. It wouldn't bother me so much except I know there are many people (like my mother for instance) who still think it's the authoritative "paper of record."

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    It’s a shamefully dishonest organization. It wouldn’t bother me so much except I know there are many people (like my mother for instance) who still think it’s the authoritative “paper of record.”

    The Times is the shamefully dishonest paper of record.

    • Agree: ic1000
  266. @Anon
    Because of privacy concerns, I don't think we really know exactly what the deal is with Caster Semenya, right? But I've read that she falls into one of the many intersex categories, rare genetic birth defects, some of which can be classified as defective men, some as defective women, and some as genuinely impossible to sex one way or the other. These are rare and difficult cases, and the sporting world basically needs to take them one at a time and make fair decisions.

    But yeah, she has nothing to do with the trans issue.

    Also, when did "the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard" become some sort of medical research outfit? All the professors there have glorified English degrees. Nobody in the department has any sort of medical, biology, psychology, or STEM qualifications. I think a genuine "gender studies" department would be useful, but the sort of professors in the current incarnations are completely useless.

    Replies: @FLgeezer

    >the sort of professors in the current incarnation are completely useless.

    Definitely. And their proliferation is largely responsible for the inflated cost of a worthwhile college
    education.

  267. @anonymous
    OFF TOPIC - Affirmative-action-killer-cop update from the Mini-Mogadishu Star-Tribune:

    The city of Minneapolis will pay the family of Justine Ruszczyk Damond a record $20 million to settle a lawsuit over her July 15, 2017, shooting death by a Minneapolis police officer.

    Mayor Jacob Frey announced the agreement solemnly at a news conference Friday, flanked by City Council members, the city attorney and the police chief. The deal stipulates that the family will donate $2 million of its settlement to the Minneapolis Foundation’s Fund for Safe Communities, a program set up to fight gun violence in the city, Frey said.

    “This is not a victory for anyone, but rather a way for our city to move forward,” said Frey. “And I do believe we will move forward together.”

    The settlement will drain the city’s self-insurance fund, which the city previously projected to have $27.1 million by the end of the year. Over the next few months, the city will develop a plan to replenish its reserves, said Minneapolis Chief Financial Officer Mark Ruff.
     

    Replies: @Alden

    Good ! Excellent! Tax those hypocritical liberals to death. Import more 60 IQ tribesmen and give them affirmative action you suicidal liberals.

    How about suing whatever religious group sponsored him? That would be an excellent way to check those religious organizations. Come on, get with it all you underemployed attorneys

  268. Alden says:
    @Ghost of Bull Moose
    She's a woman, but if Serena Williams does any more 'roids her testicles are going to descend.

    Replies: @Alden

    With all those male hormones she takes it was a wonder she was able to conceive and bring a baby to term. No wonder she had a bad time. If she had a bad time or just decided to use normal childbirth to spout more Blacketty black grievances

    The Drs probably had to inject massive amounts of 3 kinds of female ovulation hormones, lutenizing , follicle stimulating hormones and estrogen for at least a year to restore her eggs and ovaries to normal

    True females tend to gain weight after 35. Female athletes add muscle mass to the fat and the result is truly awful. I see pictures of her on magazine covers. How can she run around a tennis court at her weight? At least she’s well proportioned, massive female hips and thighs and massive male shoulders and chest.

    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
    @Alden

    She can't run around the court, she has stayed out on the baseline for years, pummeling normal players with her forehands and backhands. When an athletic but not powerful opponent figures this out, she just keeps the ball in play knowing Serena will commit an unforced error eventually. That's why she lost a bunch of grand slam finals or semi-finals even before she got pregnant.

  269. Alden says:
    @Alfa158
    @El Dato

    This is a bit of mythology that some Blacks subscribe to. They believe that Whites and Blacks commit crimes at the same rate but because the police are concentrated in Black neighborhoods, a disproportionate number of Blacks are arrested and convicted. In some cases it is even believed that the murder rates are the same but some White murders are falsified by the authorities as suicides or auto accidents to depress the stats on White murder.

    Replies: @guest, @Ghost of Bull Moose, @Alden

    Before the Hispanics thanks be to God ran them out, the blacks in Watts and S Central Los Angeles were firmly convinced that White suburbanites were commuting to their neighborhoods to dump trash and yard prunings in the alleys of Watts and S Central

    Turns out it was Hispanic gardeners and the Hispanic guys who clean out garages dumping the trash in the alleys.

  270. @Chrisnonymous
    @Unladen Swallow

    Yes, Flo Jo was muscular, but she was also unmistakably a woman. Her flowing hair, ridiculous nails, and bikini bottoms all mark her as such.

    It's the lack of bikini bottoms in particular that belie what lies beneath in Semenya's case. Just do a Google image search and look at the photos of him with packs of actual women. You can tell from his hair and clothes that he's not a woman.

    Replies: @Unladen Swallow, @Alden

    She had a pretty feminine face till the testosterone spread her jaw bones into a typical square male shape.

    • Replies: @guest
    @Alden

    Unless you're talking about her being pretty in prepubescence, that's not how it works. The skeletal system is set in late adolescence/early adulthood. Most people do not experience bone growth past 20 years of age. Flo-Jo's jaw bones would not suddenly separate once she started messing with her hormones.

  271. @Chrisnonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    The interesting flip side is that the sports women are more generally drawn too are not the ones women follow as dedicated fans. There are countless women who love watching football, but I don't know any women interested in watching track and field, even at the Olympic level. Even though I was a swimmer in my youth, my mother today seems much more interested in watching the Masters than Olympic swimming, despite Phil Mickelson in golf-wear vs Matt Biondi almost naked.

    Replies: @Alden

    Only spectator sports I like are figure skating and ballet.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Alden

    I could become a fan of synchronized swimming and rhythmic gymnastics.

    I have a theory that such "sports" are really just the world's most elaborate personal ads.

  272. @eah
    "The Myth of Testosterone Gender"

    "experts"

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5VOQjzXkAA3fbC.jpg

    Replies: @El Dato, @Desiderius, @Peripatetic Commenter

    I suggest that that man start looking for his own testicles because he seems to have misplaced them.

  273. I nominate Caster Semenya as the Queen of Wakanda.

  274. @Alden
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    With all those male hormones she takes it was a wonder she was able to conceive and bring a baby to term. No wonder she had a bad time. If she had a bad time or just decided to use normal childbirth to spout more Blacketty black grievances

    The Drs probably had to inject massive amounts of 3 kinds of female ovulation hormones, lutenizing , follicle stimulating hormones and estrogen for at least a year to restore her eggs and ovaries to normal

    True females tend to gain weight after 35. Female athletes add muscle mass to the fat and the result is truly awful. I see pictures of her on magazine covers. How can she run around a tennis court at her weight? At least she’s well proportioned, massive female hips and thighs and massive male shoulders and chest.

    Replies: @Unladen Swallow

    She can’t run around the court, she has stayed out on the baseline for years, pummeling normal players with her forehands and backhands. When an athletic but not powerful opponent figures this out, she just keeps the ball in play knowing Serena will commit an unforced error eventually. That’s why she lost a bunch of grand slam finals or semi-finals even before she got pregnant.

  275. anon[316] • Disclaimer says:

    “The Myth of Testosterone”

    when i was a sophomore and playing high school football we used to have to run sets of sprints at the end of practice that were anywhere from 50-80 yards or so iirc. I was a lineman and they separated us running these sprints into two groups – lineman and skill position players. Near the beginning of the season i would finish these sprints towards the front of a group of 3-5 other linemen but a few months later i would finish these sprints 10 yards ahead of the nearest competitor presumably because endogenous testosterone had been increasing. I didn’t notice a great increase in muscle mass that i can recall but i did notice what seemed like an almost daily increase in stamina, endurance and ability to recover.

  276. @Alden
    @Chrisnonymous

    She had a pretty feminine face till the testosterone spread her jaw bones into a typical square male shape.

    Replies: @guest

    Unless you’re talking about her being pretty in prepubescence, that’s not how it works. The skeletal system is set in late adolescence/early adulthood. Most people do not experience bone growth past 20 years of age. Flo-Jo’s jaw bones would not suddenly separate once she started messing with her hormones.

  277. From the article update:

    “The athletics association insists that Semenya can still compete, as long as she undergoes medically unnecessary interventions to lower her testosterone level.

    (Because the testosterone rules have not yet gone into effect, she was able to run — and win — the women’s 800-meter race at a meet in Doha on Friday.)

    The association underplays the risk of such measures, saying women with high testosterone can lower their levels dramatically by taking an oral contraceptive.”

    Cognitive dissonance

  278. @BB753
    @Deckin

    Damn! All died of cancer, right?

    Replies: @HammerJack

    Not Andy. He famously drank himself to death, after Victoria Principal dumped him and his records stopped selling. Quite the little meteor, that one.

  279. @El Dato

    “Testosterone: An Unauthorized Biography.”
     
    Who comes up with such really senseless titles?

    There is a major desire to fill minds with meaningless word associations as long as someone can be found who feels oppressed and needs to be de-oppressed, post-humously or even post-genocidally.

    Meanwhile, at MIT Press via Mozilla's Internet Health Report


    Data Feminism
     
    Dis gon be gud.

    Introduction

    Intersectional feminism isn't just about women nor even just about gender. Feminism is about power – who has it and who doesn’t. And in a world in which data is power, and that power is wielded unequally, data feminism can help us understand how it can be challenged and changed.

    by Catherine D'Ignazio and Lauren Klein
     

    Oh good, a wall of text...

    We’ll have more to say about the importance of intersectionality in a few pages, but first let’s find out what happened with Christine Darden and her goal of becoming an aerospace engineer. As Shetterly tells it, Darden heard nothing from her boss but radio silence. [Happens to me all the time and I'm not even intersectional] But two weeks later, she was indeed promoted and transferred to an aerospace engineering group. Darden would go on to conduct ground-breaking research on sonic boom minimization techniques, author more than sixty scientific papers in the field of computational fluid dynamics, and earn her PhD in mechanical engineering-- all while “juggling the duties of Girl Scout mom, Sunday school teacher, trips to music lessons, and homemaker,” she recalls.
     
    The Incredibles! Supermom!!

    For over a decade, this research required that Darden work overtime in the office as well as at home. But she could tell that her scientific accomplishments were still not being recognized at the same level as her male colleagues. Once again, data analysis opened doors for Darden. But this time, Darden wasn’t responsible for the math. Instead, her technical expertise provided a key datapoint for a larger advocacy project.
     
    Okay. Enough already. Scroll on ....

    But data-driven decision-making can be just as easily used to amplify the inequities already entrenched in public life. In Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy, Cathy O’Neill has drawn attention to how predictive policing models use data about property tax delinquency and arrest locations, the very same datasets used for good by the City of New York’s stats team, in order to determine which neighborhoods to patrol more heavily, and which neighborhoods to leave alone. Like city building inspectors, it turns out that police are also in short supply. But in the case of policing, data analysis does not always save lives.
     
    You know what's coming! Overpolicing.

    Because more police are sent into neighborhoods that have had more crimes already reported, the police are more likely to be there when a new crime is committed (or, as in most cases, simply suspected of taking place). And because the police are already there, the people involved--usually poor, and usually people of color-- are more likely to get ticketed, arrested, or even killed.

     

    Because the police are already there, blacks are more likely to get killed. That's why St. Louis might call in the National Guard to keep black people from offing each other.

    This creates what O’Neill calls a “pernicious feedback loop,” amplifying the effects of the already pernicious criminalization of poverty that takes place in the United States. Meanwhile, in more affluent neighborhoods, the very same petty crimes--like jaywalking or littering, for instance-- are far less likely to be prosecuted because the police simply aren’t there to see those crimes take place.
     
    Why aren't the police there? Is it because nobody gets shot in the face because he refuses to move his car?

    This disparity in law enforcement is what led to the creation of White Collar Crime Risk Zones, a satirical map of all of the white collar crime that goes uninvestigated because neighborhoods of color are so overpoliced.

     

    White Collar. Get it? It's not the opposite of Blue Collar. It's the opposite of Black Collar.

    [Unironical red-colored map of the financial district elided]

    Do writers have IQ above 80 nowadays?

    Replies: @guest, @Forbes, @Alfa158, @HammerJack

    At this point, I think we all know that the phrase “white collar crime” is a ‘classic anti-semitic dog whistle’.

    Meanwhile, in the ‘How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy’ department, by sheer chance this week’s news also mentions that data crunchers have figured out how to predict your chance of getting into an auto accident simply by analyzing the Google Street View of your home.

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/613432/how-a-google-street-view-image-of-your-house-predicts-your-risk-of-a-car-accident/

  280. @guest
    @TWS

    Admittedly, I am surprisingly interested in women's sports where the camera spends a significant portion of its time on close-ups of jiggly bikini bottoms.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    This one’s for you.

  281. @Alden
    @Chrisnonymous

    Only spectator sports I like are figure skating and ballet.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    I could become a fan of synchronized swimming and rhythmic gymnastics.

    I have a theory that such “sports” are really just the world’s most elaborate personal ads.

  282. Wille says:
    @ex-banker
    If testosterone is a myth, I guess the doctors and drug companies funding transmania will stop pushing hormone therapies?

    Replies: @Wille

    If testosterone is a myth, I guess the doctors and drug companies funding transmania will stop pushing hormone therapies?

    Nah, the myth is that it’s a masculine hormone.

    Now, the drug companies can push it to men, women, and in-betweens!

    Testosterone – Strong enough for a man, now ok for a woman.

  283. @Corvinus
    @ic1000

    More of the same.

    Sailer’s iron rule of femme fatalism —> A sardonic, prototypical Alt Right piece in which a male author offers “staccato grievance commentary”™ about some obscure female writer’s vignette as “proof” of the widespread influence of an Ivory Tower concept.

    Have white normies even heard of these two authors? Would they generally take their "commentary" seriously?

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Desiderius, @anonymous, @ic1000, @L Woods, @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @obwandiyag, @Anon, @Buffalo Joe, @guest, @BigDickNick

    This is the classic left wing dismissal of conservative concerns.

    Stage 1: x isn’t happening you’re paranoid and mentally ill.
    Stage 2: of course x is happening. It’s a traditional american value! It makes us better off.
    Stage 3: X is a punishment for how evil you are. You deserve X you piece of shit!!!!

  284. Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard College

    We used to call these anti-science religious fanatics “Priests”

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @George Taylor

    Not Rebeccas you didn’t.

    Don’t blame the Catholic Church for the perverse vanity of our ruling class that leads them to put women in charge of everything just to poke Mother Nature in the eye.

    They shouldn’t be surprised when she does more than just poke them back.

  285. the truth is: Women’s Sport needs to be abolished. There is no point in broadcasting any more sport with women competing against women who have testes/penises…whatevah. Women’s sport is going to be boring from now on. Why waste millions of dollars when trans women/wtf evah, are going to win? Who cares? Most women’s sport are money losers on ESPN, FoxSports…and let’s not even think that Latin networks wanna gay-up or trans-up viewership.

    My main point: Viewership. Women will watch predominately women’s sport whether it is skating, tennis, or soccer. They are not gonna go all in for trans peops who will destroy their faves. Also, these same men who pretend to be women (most trans will not have their balls and dick cut off) can not compete with men who have their dicks & balls. Why this is so hard for the Olympic Committee ( a joke of assholes) or an American HS…is a sign that our human culture is corrupt and degenerate. Not me, but perhaps you, heathen 🙂

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Lagertha

    Women were already looking for an excuse to cool it on all the masculinization (including sports) even before the transies came along. Don’t expect non-lesbians to put up much of a fight.

    , @Lagertha
    @Lagertha

    yah yah yah..people are focused on sex & race. People suck. However, many American students are 1st generation (like me!) who had nothing to do with America before 1970.

  286. @George Taylor

    Rebecca M. Jordan-Young is a professor in the Department of Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies at Barnard College
     
    We used to call these anti-science religious fanatics "Priests"

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Not Rebeccas you didn’t.

    Don’t blame the Catholic Church for the perverse vanity of our ruling class that leads them to put women in charge of everything just to poke Mother Nature in the eye.

    They shouldn’t be surprised when she does more than just poke them back.

  287. @Lagertha
    the truth is: Women's Sport needs to be abolished. There is no point in broadcasting any more sport with women competing against women who have testes/penises...whatevah. Women's sport is going to be boring from now on. Why waste millions of dollars when trans women/wtf evah, are going to win? Who cares? Most women's sport are money losers on ESPN, FoxSports...and let's not even think that Latin networks wanna gay-up or trans-up viewership.

    My main point: Viewership. Women will watch predominately women's sport whether it is skating, tennis, or soccer. They are not gonna go all in for trans peops who will destroy their faves. Also, these same men who pretend to be women (most trans will not have their balls and dick cut off) can not compete with men who have their dicks & balls. Why this is so hard for the Olympic Committee ( a joke of assholes) or an American HS...is a sign that our human culture is corrupt and degenerate. Not me, but perhaps you, heathen :)

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Lagertha

    Women were already looking for an excuse to cool it on all the masculinization (including sports) even before the transies came along. Don’t expect non-lesbians to put up much of a fight.

  288. @Lagertha
    the truth is: Women's Sport needs to be abolished. There is no point in broadcasting any more sport with women competing against women who have testes/penises...whatevah. Women's sport is going to be boring from now on. Why waste millions of dollars when trans women/wtf evah, are going to win? Who cares? Most women's sport are money losers on ESPN, FoxSports...and let's not even think that Latin networks wanna gay-up or trans-up viewership.

    My main point: Viewership. Women will watch predominately women's sport whether it is skating, tennis, or soccer. They are not gonna go all in for trans peops who will destroy their faves. Also, these same men who pretend to be women (most trans will not have their balls and dick cut off) can not compete with men who have their dicks & balls. Why this is so hard for the Olympic Committee ( a joke of assholes) or an American HS...is a sign that our human culture is corrupt and degenerate. Not me, but perhaps you, heathen :)

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Lagertha

    yah yah yah..people are focused on sex & race. People suck. However, many American students are 1st generation (like me!) who had nothing to do with America before 1970.

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