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The premise of the period TV show The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel appears to be: What if the queen of comedy Joan Rivers had been switched at birth in the hospital with a pretty Irish-American baby who grows up thinking she’s Jewish and thus sets forth on a stand-up comic career in 1960, but has no sense of humor?

I’d rather watch the alternative story: a switched-at-birth Joan Rivers grows up Irish.

 
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  1. Maybe they got the idea from On the Basis of Sex, wherein in a pretty English lass (with some Italian heritage) grows up thinking her name is Ruth Bader Ginsberg?

    • LOL: Abe
  2. All I can say Steve is I agree.

    • Replies: @Neoconned
    Same.

    Joan is like Roseanne....funny in that she played up being a female slob.
  3. … a pretty Irish-American baby who grows up thinking she’s Jewish and thus sets forth on a stand-up comic career in 1960, but has no sense of humor.

    Is this meant to say one fictional female character, played by an Irish actress, is unfunny or that you have a theory Irish people are genetically unfunny?

    I’d rather watch the alternative story: a switched-at-birth Joan Rivers grows up Irish.

    She’d just have been a chain smoking old gal in a Bruins jacket who worked as a dispatcher for a cab company in Boston.

    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    No. It's actually a really good idea. It's not that the Irish aren't funny (though that might certainly be true; sometimes I think they are in fact gloomy, when I recall a childhood friend's ferocious brogue-inflected chain-smoking mother, or the brooding, fatalistic mother in Angela's Ashes) but that the sensibilities are so different. Irish humor tends to be dark, as far as I can see.

    Imagine Joan Rivers (who I never found funny myself) doing her rapid-fire, glib irreverence bit in a Joyce-ian Irish Catholic family. Or maybe not. Joan getting repeated slaps to the head for making fun of Catholic practices might get old after a while.
  4. There are rumours that it only lasted more than one series because the lead actress is or was having an affair with Bezos.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    There are rumours that it only lasted more than one series because the lead actress is or was having an affair with Bezos.
     
    That would improve my opinion of everyone involved ... but especially Bezos.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    If that were true, he wouldn't have made her work in one of his warehouses on Black Friday.

    https://twitter.com/TheOnion/status/1200454392593420288?s=20
    , @Cowboy Shaw
    She's a fine looking woman, and the right age; certainly worth a billionaire blowing up his marriage for, so the rumour seems extremely implausible.
    , @William Badwhite
    Bezos doesn't strike me as the type of guy capable of pulling off an affair, balancing more than one woman and keeping his emotions under control. He fell in love with the first woman besides his wife that let him have sex with her - some used up mud shark with mulatto kids - and he was sexting her, sending dick pics and sorts of mushy teenage stuff.

    He projects the image of a tough guy, but he's still a beta dork inside. A few rolls in the hay with Rachel Brosnahan and he'd be all in on that, forgetting the mud shark and all the billions that cost him.

  5. I’m guessin’ Masha O’Gessen.

    • LOL: fish
    • Replies: @Cortes
    In the role of

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morr%C3%ADgan
    , @SFG
    Joan Rivers was a Republican. Raised Irish, she could well have wound up as a Phyllis Schlafly type.
  6. The previous seasons were slightly funnier. My wife was a big fan and last night she literally fell asleep during the season 3 opener.

    Previous seasons were worthwhile for the big budget sets. There was a scene set in a NY garment factory that was faithful to the last detail and it wasn’t even key to the plot. I hadn’t seen anything like it for 40 years. Mrs Maisels dad was a Columbia math professor and they lived in an apartment that would be the envy of a hedge fund guy.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The show has many good aspects, but it's just very weird in that it's a show putatively about a stand up comedian made by people whose talents and interests don't have anything to do with stand up comedy. They like and are good at set decorating, musicals, costume design, and all sorts of stuff, none of which is stand-up comedy.

    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer? There is an interesting show to be made about a young woman battling the gay mafia that dominates those professions, but the show's creators didn't have the guts to go there.

    , @AnotherDad
    I'm between you and Steve.

    I thought the first show, with her getting drunk and just stumbling into riffing on her husband's marital betrayal on stage was pretty good, pretty funny. But then ... it heads downhill. There was maybe one more routine that was actually funny, funny.

    The period stuff is good. (I remember the garment factory scene you're mentioning.) But ... to what end? The characters aren't sympathetic. The husband is mewling, pathetic--but hey, she picked him! She isn't sympathetic either. Her mom's a loon. Maybe the gal's dad. He's ok.

    But the main issue: there's really only one joke--50s housewife can talk dirty. And after awhile ... who cares? Maybe this one should have just been a movie? It wears out it's welcome. Not just Y-chromosomed me. AnotherMom lost interest.

    Turns out women aren't funny?
    , @Known Fact
    In any period show or movie, it's really all about the clothes, hats, hairstyles and makeup. Plus cars, if they've been invented yet
    , @njguy73

    Mrs Maisels dad was a Columbia math professor and they lived in an apartment that would be the envy of a hedge fund guy.

     

    My New York relatives explained to me that the dad didn't own the apartment. Columbia did. He rented from them. Nothing else would have made sense.
  7. Yeah, the first season was kinda funny; but at season 2, the cast visits Paris to view the famous statue:
    Le Jompe du Shark.

    • Agree: Jack D
    • Replies: @njguy73
    By season 10 she'll have adopted a precocious Vietnamese orphan, moved to LA with the orphan and her new, younger husband (Noah Centineo), and be doing a local afternoon talk show.
  8. Joan Rivers was quite talented. What a great accent.

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    What a disaster that the ideology she is pushing in that routine -- opposing social pressure for girls to marry early -- took root. If only we could go back and show people then the fruits of that idea -- bitter, lonely career women, depressed male wages, the near death of the single income family, demographic decline.
    , @JimDandy
    She was a legend. I remember seeing her do standup on TV when I was a little kid, and I still remember the joke that killed everyone. Something like:

    "My husband asked me 'Was I your first?' I said, 'I don't know, were you at a beach party in 1952?'"
    , @Dan Hayes
    Joan could be quite incendiary. One time she mentioned that Hillary Clinton and her female cohort were viewing an exhibition of Georgia O'Keefe's orchards.
  9. @Clifford Brown
    Joan Rivers was quite talented. What a great accent.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpPCFoXXhF0

    What a disaster that the ideology she is pushing in that routine — opposing social pressure for girls to marry early — took root. If only we could go back and show people then the fruits of that idea — bitter, lonely career women, depressed male wages, the near death of the single income family, demographic decline.

    • Agree: Change that Matters
    • Replies: @anonymous

    If only we could go back and show people then the fruits of that idea — bitter, lonely career women, depressed male wages, the near death of the single income family, demographic decline.
     
    That was the whole point:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_castration#Evolutionary_considerations

    Lafferty points out that the fraction of intact host energy spent on reproduction includes not just gonads and gametes but also secondary sexual characteristics, mate-seeking behavior, competition, and care for offspring.
     
    , @Kronos
    Many recent TV historical dramas like "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel" and “Mad Men” seemed to focus on the fun and newness of those ideas early on in the early 1960s. But never focus on the nasty intellectual/cultural hangovers in the 1970s.

    https://burbcommunity-morethanthecurve.storage.googleapis.com/2015/05/Hangover-chicken.jpg

    , @bomag

    What a disaster that the ideology she is pushing in that routine — opposing social pressure for girls to marry early — took root.
     
    Agree.

    Also notice that she very much took for granted that one selected a partner for intelligence and occupations based on intelligence. Assortative mating taken as a given then; not so much now with a change in politics.
  10. in Prime Video’s period comedy series The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (2017–present)

    Are there more networks today then there were actual shows in 1960? It sure seems that way.

    Remember When Television Ended At Midnight?

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wZSwYEqL738/hqdefault.jpg
  11. Finally a television series we can all relate to.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Saw the promo for that after the promo for The L-Word: The Next Generation.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/1198795963508428805?s=21
    , @Bugg
    Dennis Prager?
    , @ricpic
    So many of these amalgam creatures look like Gertrude Stein.
  12. @Clifford Brown
    Joan Rivers was quite talented. What a great accent.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpPCFoXXhF0

    She was a legend. I remember seeing her do standup on TV when I was a little kid, and I still remember the joke that killed everyone. Something like:

    “My husband asked me ‘Was I your first?’ I said, ‘I don’t know, were you at a beach party in 1952?’”

  13. @Clifford Brown
    Joan Rivers was quite talented. What a great accent.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpPCFoXXhF0

    Joan could be quite incendiary. One time she mentioned that Hillary Clinton and her female cohort were viewing an exhibition of Georgia O’Keefe’s orchards.

    • Replies: @Forbes

    Joan could be quite incendiary. One time she mentioned that Hillary Clinton and her female cohort consort were viewing an exhibition of Georgia O’Keefe’s orchards.
     
    FIFY.
  14. @Cortes
    I’m guessin’ Masha O’Gessen.

    Joan Rivers was a Republican. Raised Irish, she could well have wound up as a Phyllis Schlafly type.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Right.

    Joan Rivers got fired from her 3 person comedy troupe in 1964 because they'd been hired to open for an RFK for Senate appearance but she insisted upon wearing a button endorsing RFK's Republican opponent.

    , @d4831645
    Phyllis Schlafly figures into s3 ep 7.
    , @Known Fact
    Rivers actually hosted a radio call-in show in NYC, very ably, for a year or so -- including 9/11. And no one that day blistered the walls more vividly or eloquently demanding retribution. None of that "Oooh, we must try to understand why they hate us" crap.
  15. Jews don’t like looking at Jewish actresses acting as Jews in movies and shows about Jews. They farm the job out to a better looking class of people. Stopped watching this show after a few episodes because of this. Ms. Brosnahan goes over the top with the Noo Yawk Jew thing past the point of distraction. More plausible she would be stepdancing or tipping a pint or singing “Fairytale of New York” with Christmas on tap.

    Witness also “The Wolf of Wall Street”. I saw Jordan Belfort on a podcast last week, and he looks like he just left Zabar’s on his way to sit shiva.

    I have an old work colleague/Facebook friend who like Belfort is a Log Island Jew; nice guy. He posted a photo of his dark-skinned brown-eyed black haired daughter extolling how she looks so much like Mrs. Maisel. Doubt he ever heard of Maureen O’Hara.

    • LOL: Sol
    • Replies: @Andrew M
    The minor Netflix series Russian Doll featured an actress of Orthodox Jewish heritage playing an openly Jewish character. Even the depiction of New York is more honestly Jewish; certainly more than you’d expect based on everything else on screen.
  16. I am convinced increasingly from his posts recently that Steve finally did his 23 and me and it says he’s half Irish, half Ashkenazi.

    • LOL: Kratoklastes
    • Troll: Sol
    • Replies: @Joe Walker
    Steve would kill himself if he had even a drop of Irish blood.
    , @Coemgen
    hybrid vigor
    , @Kratoklastes

    I am convinced increasingly from his posts recently that Steve finally did his 23 and me and it says he’s half Irish, half Ashkenazi.
     
    I'm reasonably certain that Steve Sailer is not stupid enough to entrust his genetic material to a firm like 23andme (or any other firm, to be frank).

    Let's be really very clear on this: as soon as they can get away with it, insurers will obtain mandatory access to these databases.

    They'll wait until the databases are sufficiently large to be worthwhile, because once they buy the legislation to force access, nobody new will sign up.

    For now, Insurers obtain the data clandestinely, with or without the permission of the firm.

    A group of people that I know were approached some time ago, to examine the feasibility of doing so for 3 firms. As expected, it's entirely feasible because - like all medium-sized enterprises - their back-end was (and I presume still is) badly-maintained.

    .

    On the second bit... one thing that has interested me is that anecdotally, it seems that people who discover some weak Red Sea Pedestrian connection tend to get all excited about it.

    My anecdote collection is small-N (N=4) and dated (T = 1995-1997) but all 4 individuals became weirdly judeophile after finding out that their great-whoever was a member of a primitive genital-mutilation cult.[1]

    One of them started referring to himself as 'part-Jewish', having spent the prior semester ridiculing a mutual friend who had converted to Catholicism at the behest of his fiancée[2].

    I should point out that these anecdotes came about as a result of the usual process BI (before Internet) - i.e., some spinster aunt getting into 'family tree' research - rather than the voluntary donation of genetic material to data-collators.


    [1] Apparently I'm the odd one out, because I am fairly certain having a Red Sea Pedestrian in my lineage would not interest me one way or the other.

    I have some basis for that certainty: one of my ancestors was a pirate whose career ended abruptly when he was captured and keelhauled, and yet that vignette doesn't make me want to buy a parrot or an eyepatch (although I do like to say "YEarrrrrgh, avast, me maties").

    [2] I had no in-principle objection to ridiculing the would-be convert: in fact I participated quite actively. After all, if his 'intended' was that tightly bound to something that doctrinaire, then the correct advice was (and remains) to 'unintend' her, stat. To their mutual credit, the marriage lasted almost 20 years and ended relatively amicably.
  17. @Clifford Brown
    Finally a television series we can all relate to.

    https://twitter.com/WiP_SHO/status/1189958085525327872

    https://twitter.com/Showtime/status/1201546569268396032

    Saw the promo for that after the promo for The L-Word: The Next Generation.

    • LOL: Clifford Brown
    • Replies: @Sol
    Her character Pat has been memory-holed.
    , @Lugash
    I wonder how TLW:NG is going to handle transwomen. Will TERFs boycott the show if they're included?
  18. @SFG
    Joan Rivers was a Republican. Raised Irish, she could well have wound up as a Phyllis Schlafly type.

    Right.

    Joan Rivers got fired from her 3 person comedy troupe in 1964 because they’d been hired to open for an RFK for Senate appearance but she insisted upon wearing a button endorsing RFK’s Republican opponent.

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    RFK's Senate opponent:talk about obscurity !
    , @ScarletNumber
    Joan was the only woman in the trio. Also, the candidate she was supporting was the incumbent Kenneth Keating, who went on to be appointed Ambassador to India, then Israel, both by Nixon.
  19. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:

    Never watched the show, but I keep hearing about it and now that it’s penetrated the Unz Review I figured I had to at least watch the trailers. I laughed once. If I were a writer trying to sell this show to a TV exec, my elevator pitch would be:

    Woke Jewish Period Hallmark Movie But Longer.

    In other words: Award/prestige press bait.

    Did I miss anything?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It wins tons of awards.

    The distinctive thing about the show is that it really really likes expensive costumes and sets for the sheer Let's Put on a Show joy of expensive costumes and sets. I don't think that's contrived. It could have been a much better show about a young woman in 1960 fighting to be accepted by the gay mafia that, say, runs Broadway show set design as a real talent, but they didn't have the courage to go there. So, instead, they just did the Life of Joan Rivers (if Joan hadn't been funny).

  20. @Jack D
    The previous seasons were slightly funnier. My wife was a big fan and last night she literally fell asleep during the season 3 opener.

    Previous seasons were worthwhile for the big budget sets. There was a scene set in a NY garment factory that was faithful to the last detail and it wasn't even key to the plot. I hadn't seen anything like it for 40 years. Mrs Maisels dad was a Columbia math professor and they lived in an apartment that would be the envy of a hedge fund guy.

    The show has many good aspects, but it’s just very weird in that it’s a show putatively about a stand up comedian made by people whose talents and interests don’t have anything to do with stand up comedy. They like and are good at set decorating, musicals, costume design, and all sorts of stuff, none of which is stand-up comedy.

    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer? There is an interesting show to be made about a young woman battling the gay mafia that dominates those professions, but the show’s creators didn’t have the guts to go there.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Remember when cringey boomer Aaron sorkin thought he could do a TV show about SNL but it turns out he's a horifically unfunny hack so the sketch comedy didn't work?

    God, I can't believe anyone ever thought that fraud could write.

    West Wing was godawful, too. But you can pretend to be serious, you cant pretend to be witty.
    , @Sol
    That Girl x Phantom Thread?
    , @Joe Walker
    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer?

    Because no one would be interested in watching it.
    , @Jack D
    Stand up comedy is very hard to fake - it's like faking being a classical musician (or any musician). Usually comedy shows (e.g. Seinfeld) work the other way - you take someone who is already a comedian and teach them to act enough to be in a sitcom, which is much easier than vice versa.

    I don't think the idea of a show built around a young Joan Rivers type character in NY circa 1960 is a bad one. Brosnahan does it pretty well for an Irish chick. I think it was enough material for around 2 seasons worth. They just seem to have run out of steam in season 3, at least in episode 1.

    , @Jack Henson
    Sailer's Butterknife in effect where he can't figure out how an unfunny woman is presented as a Jewish cultural tour de force in 1960s Aneeica and given a massive push.

    Hmm yes what could the answer be?
    , @ConfirmationBias
    Because it’s not what (they think) the show’s audience wants? Sex and the city was a lot about the clothes and the shoes and the shopping. It was about sex too, and changing attitudes and all that, and brought into mainstream the phenomena that was unfolding but not discussed as openly at the time. (I speculate, I wasn’t living in NYC around when the show came out to know if it was behind / ahead the curve / just more accurately depicted a slice of real life than was common for tv at the time)

    I guess a lot of people who watch the show also like the escapism, and the interiors and the clothes and the sepia-toned nostalgia and wistfulness for a more conventional time, where society had defined roles for everyone and most people conformed and life was less complicated.

    The stand up comic angle is just a hook. It’s not the real story. Maybe the real story really is the clothes and the interiors.

  21. @Steve Sailer
    Right.

    Joan Rivers got fired from her 3 person comedy troupe in 1964 because they'd been hired to open for an RFK for Senate appearance but she insisted upon wearing a button endorsing RFK's Republican opponent.

    RFK’s Senate opponent:talk about obscurity !

    • Replies: @Prosa123
    Kenneth Keating
    , @Hibernian
    He was the incumbent; not obscure at the time.
  22. @Dan Hayes
    Joan could be quite incendiary. One time she mentioned that Hillary Clinton and her female cohort were viewing an exhibition of Georgia O'Keefe's orchards.

    Joan could be quite incendiary. One time she mentioned that Hillary Clinton and her female cohort consort were viewing an exhibition of Georgia O’Keefe’s orchards.

    FIFY.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    You forgot to fix "orchards" to orchids. Orchards doesn't make sense.
  23. My wife watches this show and I watched a couple of first season episodes with her. Yeah, it’s pretty annoying, especially the husband character, who is a stereotypical whiny effeminate Jewish male. The only decent character was the one played by the MAD-TV actress who does the voice of Lois Griffin.

  24. In his book Funny People, Steve Allen claims nearly all America’s funniest comedians are Jewish, black, or Irish because they use humor as a defense against persecution and social ostracism.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I remember a letter to the editor in the LA Times responding to that argument: Writer pointed out 4 most popular stand ups ever in the US -- Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Bob Hope, and Johnny Carson -- were WASPs.
    , @anon
    And why are Asians (apart from Russell Peters) so awesomely unfunny? A lot of them, particularly South Asians, try the persecution shtick, but the routines almost invariably come off as flat and fake.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Have Jews, blacks, or Irish been persecuted or socially ostracized in America within the last half century? Anthony Jeselnik is one of the funniest stand-up comics today and he doesn't belong to any of those groups.
    , @Cloudbuster
    Or the media execs who make and break careers are Jewish, and like Jewish humor, so that's what we get subjected to.
    , @Art Deco
    Steve Allen was smart and entertaining, but if he ever said that he was talking rot (and had to know it).
    , @Lurker
    A lot of comedians claim they got their start using their comedic talents to avoid getting bullied at school. But recently, thinking back to school, I have begun to suspect that some of them were actually the school bullies themselves.
    , @miss marple
    Don't know about the others but the Irish are funny generally as a cover up for forgetting what they were saying due to inebriation. This is also why they're prone to making up cutesy names for people whose names slip their mind at the moment.
  25. @Anonymous
    Never watched the show, but I keep hearing about it and now that it's penetrated the Unz Review I figured I had to at least watch the trailers. I laughed once. If I were a writer trying to sell this show to a TV exec, my elevator pitch would be:

    Woke Jewish Period Hallmark Movie But Longer.

    In other words: Award/prestige press bait.

    Did I miss anything?

    It wins tons of awards.

    The distinctive thing about the show is that it really really likes expensive costumes and sets for the sheer Let’s Put on a Show joy of expensive costumes and sets. I don’t think that’s contrived. It could have been a much better show about a young woman in 1960 fighting to be accepted by the gay mafia that, say, runs Broadway show set design as a real talent, but they didn’t have the courage to go there. So, instead, they just did the Life of Joan Rivers (if Joan hadn’t been funny).

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    Awards mean nothing these days. We all saw how critics gave crap movies like Star Wars: The Last White Guy and Captain Manhater and Girlbusters . The audiences hated them, and the critics tongue-bathed them. And then we've noticed for at least 20-30 years that all the Oscar bait movies not only bash western civ, but suck as well.

    So all these "critically acclaimed" shows aren't big hits, because white males have learned critics are liars.

    , @njguy73

    A young woman fighting to be accepted by the gay mafia.

     

    Boy, Steve. You have said of yourself of several occasions, "I don't have an ear for what the public is dying to hear."

    But this makes every other thing you've said seem mass-popular. Like "Pac-man-in-1982" popular.

    A straight woman entering a gay-dominated field, beating them at their own game? A show where gay men are portrayed as the obstacle to a woman's success? And the TV industry signing on to this?

    "Sailer Tonight" will debut on CNN before that happens.

  26. Or you could watch Hannah Gadsby give a Ted talk on how to be unfunny.

  27. anonymous[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cloudbuster
    What a disaster that the ideology she is pushing in that routine -- opposing social pressure for girls to marry early -- took root. If only we could go back and show people then the fruits of that idea -- bitter, lonely career women, depressed male wages, the near death of the single income family, demographic decline.

    If only we could go back and show people then the fruits of that idea — bitter, lonely career women, depressed male wages, the near death of the single income family, demographic decline.

    That was the whole point:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_castration#Evolutionary_considerations

    Lafferty points out that the fraction of intact host energy spent on reproduction includes not just gonads and gametes but also secondary sexual characteristics, mate-seeking behavior, competition, and care for offspring.

  28. The constant whiny New York Jewish accents are too much. That and the fact that it’s completely lacking in humor, makes it unwatchable.

  29. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Switched at birth was a thing. I knew of a case in my high school. Tenth grade biology, did blood typing. Kid finds out he’s B positive, but neither parent is positive and one’s an A and one’s an O, or something like that.

    If some disillusioned L&D nurse in the 40s-early 70s had wanted to she could have switched a lot of babies on purpose. Laws of probability say there had to be at least one case.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Twin researcher Nancy Segal has found a number of twins switched at birth, including in South America two sets of identical twins who were mixed up and then reunited 20 years later.
    , @Jack D
    I suppose it could happen but American hospitals realized the problem long ago and did stuff like take footprints immediately after birth, put ID bracelets on the kid, etc. Someone determined could circumvent but what do you get out of it?
  30. @Reg Cæsar

    in Prime Video's period comedy series The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (2017–present)
     
    Are there more networks today then there were actual shows in 1960? It sure seems that way.


    Remember When Television Ended At Midnight?



    http://s3.amazonaws.com/opa-photos/photos/photos/000/060/737/large/RCA_Indian_Head_test_pattern.jpg?1469575890

  31. A favorite Joan Rivers one-liner (from memory):

    “I have a new dog — he’s half pit bull, half collie. First he rips your face off, then he goes for help.”

    • LOL: donut
  32. Somewhat OT – The Irishman stinks. DeNiro is terribly miscast as a hulking Irish goon, and I say that as a hulking Irish goon.

    The scene where he murders German POW’s was gratuitous and pornographic. We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.

    Al Pacino reprises the role he played in Scent of a Women, which is pretty much the same role he has played in every movie since then.

    MS’s usual brilliant attention to period detail, history, and long continuous shots can’t save an otherwise dull and meandering Goodfellas/Sopranos casting reunion.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hadr54qHMxE
    , @Jack D

    We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.
     
    No, Americans are the worst people ever, according to the movie made by Leftie De Niro. They make prisoners dig their own graves and then shoot them. That's exactly the kind of thing that the Nazis did, a lot. Americans - not so much. In the few cases where Americans shot prisoners it was usually because the American troops were enraged because they had just encountered one of the countless German atrocities.

    De Niro was the driving force behind this project so he cast himself as Sheeran, which was terrible casting. Not only was Sheeran a hulking Irish goon, he was a hulking Irish-Swedish goon and was nothing like De Niro. He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn't just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales. He was union muscle meaning that he'd go out and break guys kneecaps with a tire iron but no one would have trusted him with a contract to do a hit. He's probably get drunk on the down payment and then forget to do it.
    , @Anonymous
    Tough, but fair assessment, although I wouldn't go as far as saying it "stinks".

    You're right about DeNiro being miscast. Pacino is also miscast as the German Hoffa. Pacino reprises his role from Scent of a Woman and The Devil's Advocate. He tends to play some combo of those roles in all his movies.

    I thought the German POW scene was relatively sympathetic to the Germans. I think it was meant to explain partly why or how he became a hardened killer and wasn't just a routine psychopath.

    I don't think Scorsese had total freedom and control with respect to casting and directing the movie. He has to defer a lot to DeNiro and Pacino and basically let them do whatever they want in making the movie.

    The de-aging thing didn't always work either. There's a scene where DeNiro is supposed to be a young father who beats up a shopkeeper, but while his face is de-aged, he still moves and shuffles like an older man while beating up the guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB8Hb2NwEis
    , @Anonymous
    At times, Al Pacino seemed like he didn't know what movie he was in. There was one scene, where I am fairly sure he forgot his lines.

    Also, throughout the movie, the actors' statures and heights seemed inconsistent. And sure enough....

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/12/21/05/477DFDB800000578-0-image-a-44_1513835735580.jpg

    , @Figi
    Thank you! for commenting on the continual disparagement of the German people by Hollywood. Sick of it. Every villain is a blond Aryan type named Karl. Every dope is named Fred or Frank. Those are the names of my brothers and father. Disgusting. I will never go to the movies again as long as I live.
    , @nebulafox
    >The scene where he murders German POW’s was gratuitous and pornographic.

    If prisoner murder is too uncomfortable for you handle, I would strongly advise never reading a book about the Eastern Front or the Pacific Theater of that same war.

    On a more relevant note, it is a bit of a sign of Hollywood's intellectual bankruptcy that they can't think of anything new to make historically-oriented movies about. But you have to admit, the Nazis make really good villains. Not just because they were evil, but because of the style and sheek.

    , @Anonymous

    The Irishman stinks.
     
    I haven't seen it but I hope it's not like GANGS OF NY and AVIATOR, where Scoresese was trying to make someone else's movie. GANGS is like Griffith on steroids & sound while AVIATOR was his stab at Wellesianism. Scorsese developed a style of his own that is at once furious and fastidious. No need for him to play Terry Gilliam whose idea of filmmaking is to throw his idea into a Welles/Fellini box and shake it really good.

    Because Scorsese, Spielberg, and DePalma grew up on classic hollywood on TV and revival houses, part of them want to make Old Movies in a New Way.
    The younger generation of film-makers were less enamored of old classics, and their movies, at once more rootless and glib, show.

    There was an effort at colorization to make old b/w films more appealing to young audiences, but the most off-putting thing about classic hollywood is the heavyhanded music that beats you over the head. Take Ida Lupino's HITCH-HIKER. This would be much more effective without the blaring music that beats you like a billy club. The movie would be so much effective with a more muted and haunting score. Sergio Leone said many good Hollywood westerns were ruined by the music, and he sure didn't make that mistake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcKZ636kvxg

    What Hollywood should do is have composers write new scores for old movies and offer them as option on dvd. In opera productions, the director gets to change the sets and design. In re-releases of movies on DVD, they should consider new scores for certain movies. This has been done with MAJOR DUNDEE. And with TOUCH OF EVIL re-release, the original Mancini score(that I like) was taken out.
  33. The distinctive thing about the show is that it really really likes expensive costumes and sets for the sheer Let’s Put on a Show joy of expensive costumes and sets. I don’t think that’s contrived. It could have been a much better show about a young woman in 1960 fighting to be accepted by the gay mafia that, say, runs Broadway show set design as a real talent, but they didn’t have the courage to go there.

    But Steve, the people who want to put on a pageant out of sheer “Let’s Put on a Show” joy are the same Gay Mafia.

  34. @Anonymous
    Switched at birth was a thing. I knew of a case in my high school. Tenth grade biology, did blood typing. Kid finds out he's B positive, but neither parent is positive and one's an A and one's an O, or something like that.

    If some disillusioned L&D nurse in the 40s-early 70s had wanted to she could have switched a lot of babies on purpose. Laws of probability say there had to be at least one case.

    Twin researcher Nancy Segal has found a number of twins switched at birth, including in South America two sets of identical twins who were mixed up and then reunited 20 years later.

  35. @JimB
    In his book Funny People, Steve Allen claims nearly all America's funniest comedians are Jewish, black, or Irish because they use humor as a defense against persecution and social ostracism.

    I remember a letter to the editor in the LA Times responding to that argument: Writer pointed out 4 most popular stand ups ever in the US — Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Bob Hope, and Johnny Carson — were WASPs.

    • Replies: @Sol
    I wish Johnny Carson were still around. And 80s NBC. Too bad Tarantino won't be doing a movie set in the early 80s.
    , @Desiderius
    Things have turned more... tragic for WASPs since then.
    , @ScarletNumber
    Speaking of Johnny, he correctly figured out that while Joan could guest host for him one day a week, she wasn't likable to be on TV every night.
    , @adreadline

    Writer pointed out 4 most popular stand ups ever in the US — Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Bob Hope, and Johnny Carson — were WASPs.
     
    Will Rogers was nearly as much of a WASP as George Lopez is.
    , @Twodees Partain
    Will Rogers was Cherokee, not WASP.
  36. Anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    The show has many good aspects, but it's just very weird in that it's a show putatively about a stand up comedian made by people whose talents and interests don't have anything to do with stand up comedy. They like and are good at set decorating, musicals, costume design, and all sorts of stuff, none of which is stand-up comedy.

    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer? There is an interesting show to be made about a young woman battling the gay mafia that dominates those professions, but the show's creators didn't have the guts to go there.

    Remember when cringey boomer Aaron sorkin thought he could do a TV show about SNL but it turns out he’s a horifically unfunny hack so the sketch comedy didn’t work?

    God, I can’t believe anyone ever thought that fraud could write.

    West Wing was godawful, too. But you can pretend to be serious, you cant pretend to be witty.

  37. @Dave Pinsen
    Saw the promo for that after the promo for The L-Word: The Next Generation.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/1198795963508428805?s=21

    Her character Pat has been memory-holed.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Not anymore: I saw it referenced in another promo for the show last night (the middle-aged lesbian who looks like Drew Carey tells a young suitor about the Pat character in a bar and Julia Sweeney happens to be sitting nearby).
  38. @Steve Sailer
    The show has many good aspects, but it's just very weird in that it's a show putatively about a stand up comedian made by people whose talents and interests don't have anything to do with stand up comedy. They like and are good at set decorating, musicals, costume design, and all sorts of stuff, none of which is stand-up comedy.

    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer? There is an interesting show to be made about a young woman battling the gay mafia that dominates those professions, but the show's creators didn't have the guts to go there.

    That Girl x Phantom Thread?

  39. @Anonymous
    I am convinced increasingly from his posts recently that Steve finally did his 23 and me and it says he’s half Irish, half Ashkenazi.

    Steve would kill himself if he had even a drop of Irish blood.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Steve would kill himself if he had even a drop of Irish blood.
     
    No, he would go punch Podherotz.
  40. @Steve Sailer
    The show has many good aspects, but it's just very weird in that it's a show putatively about a stand up comedian made by people whose talents and interests don't have anything to do with stand up comedy. They like and are good at set decorating, musicals, costume design, and all sorts of stuff, none of which is stand-up comedy.

    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer? There is an interesting show to be made about a young woman battling the gay mafia that dominates those professions, but the show's creators didn't have the guts to go there.

    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer?

    Because no one would be interested in watching it.

    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    One of the biggest hits of the 1950s, made into a successful movie was The Best of Everything, which was about girls in the publishing industry.

    It's forgotten now but it was a huge hit. I think Mad Men referred to it.
  41. @Steve Sailer
    I remember a letter to the editor in the LA Times responding to that argument: Writer pointed out 4 most popular stand ups ever in the US -- Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Bob Hope, and Johnny Carson -- were WASPs.

    I wish Johnny Carson were still around. And 80s NBC. Too bad Tarantino won’t be doing a movie set in the early 80s.

    • Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe

    Too bad Tarantino won’t be doing a movie set in the early 80s.
     
    He'll be making movies until he's an elderly man. Maybe he believes that stuff about retiring after one or two more pictures. But I sure don't.
  42. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Somewhat OT - The Irishman stinks. DeNiro is terribly miscast as a hulking Irish goon, and I say that as a hulking Irish goon.

    The scene where he murders German POW's was gratuitous and pornographic. We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.

    Al Pacino reprises the role he played in Scent of a Women, which is pretty much the same role he has played in every movie since then.

    MS's usual brilliant attention to period detail, history, and long continuous shots can't save an otherwise dull and meandering Goodfellas/Sopranos casting reunion.

  43. I suppose in these parts this is a stupid question, but why is Rachel Brosnahan’s ethnicity important?

    Are all Jews supposed to have frizzy hair, big noses, and dark olive skin?

    It’s a good thing back in the old days the bosses didn’t run the Sailer blog’s blood quantum tests. Hedy Lamarr, Sylvia Sidney, Shelley Winters and Lauren Bacall would never have been signed to contracts. (That’s just the women.) There were also lesser known but interesting actresses such as Piper Laurie and Barbara Barrie who were Jewish.

    I can’t speak to the show’s wittiness or lack thereof, never having seen it, but Brosnahan looks to me to have sufficiently non-specific looks to be convincingly Ashkenazi Jewish.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    The fact that she goes by her real name, as the vast majority of actors and actresses have in the last 50 years, and it's Irish, might have some impact.
    , @Known Fact
    Barbara Bain, the cool worldly blonde of Mission Impossible TV fame, was Jewish
    , @njguy73

    Are all Jews supposed to have frizzy hair, big noses, and dark olive skin?

     

    Yeah, you must be new around here. Refer to Sailer's First Law of Female Journalism.
  44. @Forbes

    Joan could be quite incendiary. One time she mentioned that Hillary Clinton and her female cohort consort were viewing an exhibition of Georgia O’Keefe’s orchards.
     
    FIFY.

    You forgot to fix “orchards” to orchids. Orchards doesn’t make sense.

  45. @Steve Sailer
    The show has many good aspects, but it's just very weird in that it's a show putatively about a stand up comedian made by people whose talents and interests don't have anything to do with stand up comedy. They like and are good at set decorating, musicals, costume design, and all sorts of stuff, none of which is stand-up comedy.

    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer? There is an interesting show to be made about a young woman battling the gay mafia that dominates those professions, but the show's creators didn't have the guts to go there.

    Stand up comedy is very hard to fake – it’s like faking being a classical musician (or any musician). Usually comedy shows (e.g. Seinfeld) work the other way – you take someone who is already a comedian and teach them to act enough to be in a sitcom, which is much easier than vice versa.

    I don’t think the idea of a show built around a young Joan Rivers type character in NY circa 1960 is a bad one. Brosnahan does it pretty well for an Irish chick. I think it was enough material for around 2 seasons worth. They just seem to have run out of steam in season 3, at least in episode 1.

    • Replies: @Arclight
    Had this very conversation with my wife last night after she watched a couple of episodes of the new season. Initially it was a pretty good show with killer sets, but the NYC Jewishness of it is tiresome and it's not funny. My wife still likes it though.
    , @Jane Plain
    "Stand up comedy is very hard to fake – it’s like faking being a classical musician (or any musician)."

    It's impossible to fake being a classical musician. I mean, onstage.

    Impersonating Yo Yo Ma offstage? That might be the premise of a comedy.

    "Brosnahan does it pretty well for an Irish chick."

    Cringe. You'll never fit in here, Jack.
    , @dvorak

    Usually comedy shows (e.g. Seinfeld) work the other way – you take someone who is already a comedian and teach them to act enough to be in a sitcom, which is much easier than vice versa.
     
    That's true for Jerry, and it only *half* worked because he was the straight man in the series.

    The other three principals are world-class comic actors, not comedians.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8_2hPjljag
  46. I liked the last joke Joan Rivers told, in July 2014. Rivers was asked by a reporter whether the U.S. will ever see a gay president. The 81-year-old Rivers responded, “We already have it with Obama, so let’s just calm down,” adding, “You know Michelle is a tranny.”

    She was dead two months later. Cue ominous music.

    • Agree: jim jones
    • LOL: Kronos
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    She really was in peak form until the end, and would probably have still been going strong today if it weren't for the medical malpractice that killed her.
    , @R.G. Camara
    Rivers used to get angry when she was compared with Don Rickles, who was another comedian from her generation who was still doing stand-up shows.

    Why? Simple. Don was doing the same act he'd done for 30 years, while Rivers constantly updated hers. So she was out there sweating herself and trying out new material while Don was just playing the hits. She didn't hate Don (she made it clear she loved him), but the comparison made her upset just for the differences.
  47. @Altai
    There are rumours that it only lasted more than one series because the lead actress is or was having an affair with Bezos.

    There are rumours that it only lasted more than one series because the lead actress is or was having an affair with Bezos.

    That would improve my opinion of everyone involved … but especially Bezos.

    • Agree: Thea
  48. @JimB
    In his book Funny People, Steve Allen claims nearly all America's funniest comedians are Jewish, black, or Irish because they use humor as a defense against persecution and social ostracism.

    And why are Asians (apart from Russell Peters) so awesomely unfunny? A lot of them, particularly South Asians, try the persecution shtick, but the routines almost invariably come off as flat and fake.

    • Replies: @Cowboy Shaw
    This story had people rolling in the aisles across England last week, as an extremely unfunny woke south asian comedian rolled out the wrong routine in front of a lunch of drunk city cricketing types: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50644317
  49. @Anonymous
    Switched at birth was a thing. I knew of a case in my high school. Tenth grade biology, did blood typing. Kid finds out he's B positive, but neither parent is positive and one's an A and one's an O, or something like that.

    If some disillusioned L&D nurse in the 40s-early 70s had wanted to she could have switched a lot of babies on purpose. Laws of probability say there had to be at least one case.

    I suppose it could happen but American hospitals realized the problem long ago and did stuff like take footprints immediately after birth, put ID bracelets on the kid, etc. Someone determined could circumvent but what do you get out of it?

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Someone determined could circumvent but what do you get out of it?
     
    The sheer joy of doing it. Same reason people do all sorts of illegal and destructive stuff. What does a punk get out of throwing stuff off a bridge onto oncoming cars, or those guys in a small town in which I lived who were caught jacking off in the breakfast biscuit gravy at the Hardee's?

    In this case the perp could figure no one would find out. Females usually don't do stuff like this, the key word is "usually". No one dies, a few privileged kids get prole upbringings and vice versa maybe. If it did happen, the nurse was probably bored out of her gourd and wanted to do something to make things more interesting for her.

    But most switchings were probably accidental. People make mistakes. Footprints-I found my father's old hospital birth certificate after he died and the footprints were illegible, I doubt they were legible even then. And how many people footprint their kids and compare them? Most hospital birth certs (which are not the same as state certificates of live birth, which do not have footprints) got put in those Baby Books and got lost in moves and so forth.

    Switchings weren't common, but they weren't unheard of either and in all likelihood most of them were never detected. A lot of them would result in the switchee go through life and die with no one ever the wiser. In those pre-DNA days how could you prove it except on the off chance the blood groups were an impossible result?
    , @anon

    ...what do you get out of it?
     
    In Once Upon a Time in America, the gangsters perform a kidnapping-without-a-kidnapping by swapping around all the name tags on the kids, and demanding a quid pro quo before they'll reveal who got swapped with who.

    So you could get the police to back off your union friends, or whatever it was they wanted.
    , @Pericles
    Meanwhile, paternity testing ...
  50. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Somewhat OT - The Irishman stinks. DeNiro is terribly miscast as a hulking Irish goon, and I say that as a hulking Irish goon.

    The scene where he murders German POW's was gratuitous and pornographic. We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.

    Al Pacino reprises the role he played in Scent of a Women, which is pretty much the same role he has played in every movie since then.

    MS's usual brilliant attention to period detail, history, and long continuous shots can't save an otherwise dull and meandering Goodfellas/Sopranos casting reunion.

    We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.

    No, Americans are the worst people ever, according to the movie made by Leftie De Niro. They make prisoners dig their own graves and then shoot them. That’s exactly the kind of thing that the Nazis did, a lot. Americans – not so much. In the few cases where Americans shot prisoners it was usually because the American troops were enraged because they had just encountered one of the countless German atrocities.

    De Niro was the driving force behind this project so he cast himself as Sheeran, which was terrible casting. Not only was Sheeran a hulking Irish goon, he was a hulking Irish-Swedish goon and was nothing like De Niro. He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn’t just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales. He was union muscle meaning that he’d go out and break guys kneecaps with a tire iron but no one would have trusted him with a contract to do a hit. He’s probably get drunk on the down payment and then forget to do it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn’t just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales.
     
    Strangely enough, there was a hulking Polish-Irish goon named Richard Kuklinski who claimed to be a mafia hitman and to have killed Hoffa. Kuklinski was 6'5", 270 lbs, and nicknamed "The Polack", although he was better known as "The Iceman", because apparently sometimes he would freeze his victims to conceal their time of death.

    Kuklinski was convicted of murder and had to serve 2 life sentences, although I don't think the murders he was convicted for were mafia related. He was also the subject of 3 HBO documentaries, in which he was interviewed and talks coldly and explicitly about his gruesome murders, which he claims numbered from 100 to over 250 victims. He also says he was a mafia hitman involved in high profile hits such as mob bosses and Hoffa. There was also a Hollywood movie about him that came out in 2012.

    The parallels between Sheeran and Kuklinski are quite strange.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExM71Linr7s
    , @anonymous
    I just read that article from Slate you linked to awhile back.

    Thanks.
    , @Hibernian

    Not only was Sheeran a hulking Irish goon, he was a hulking Irish-Swedish goon and was nothing like De Niro. He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn’t just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales.
     
    A stereotype three times over.
    , @Anne Lid
    Israelis made Egyptian prisoners of war to dig their own graves, then shot them.
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    I disagree with your assessment in your first paragraph, but then again, our world views are mostly different aren't they?

    Your second paragraph is mostly a repeat of what I said, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to do so. Further, I've been in the trucking business in Chicago for 17 years, and am a teamster. As soon as the movie came out, the old timers quickly set the record straight about what Sheeran was.
  51. @Steve Sailer
    I remember a letter to the editor in the LA Times responding to that argument: Writer pointed out 4 most popular stand ups ever in the US -- Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Bob Hope, and Johnny Carson -- were WASPs.

    Things have turned more… tragic for WASPs since then.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Are there any other good books detailing the decline of the WASPs?

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PFVDAS2aL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

  52. @Altai
    There are rumours that it only lasted more than one series because the lead actress is or was having an affair with Bezos.

    If that were true, he wouldn’t have made her work in one of his warehouses on Black Friday.

  53. Arab Christian Tony Shaloub does the best Jewish humor on the show, notably. He’s by the far the best thing it’s got going for it.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    When I saw ultra-Kissinger/Kudlow/Schumer-ish Shaloub in Monk episodes and then looked him up in Wikipedia I was surprised to find that not only is he Arab Christian but he is also a native of a certain small Midwestern city - which is the home of the greatest professional football club on Earth.
  54. In fairness, if a woman actress doesn’t come across as funny in a comedy show, its usually the fault of the scriptwriter, rather than the actress. There is no shortage of actresses who can act funny (put on humorous foreign accents etc) but there is a shortage of women who can write funny material.

    On UK TV, there’s been a number of female actresses who have been given their own TV programs on the basis of being funny on sketch shows written by males. In almost every case, the shows have been badly let down by poor script writing and were cut after one or two series. Tracy Ulman is about the only UK female comedienne/actress who can actually write funny TV material.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    Fans of Victoria Wood (RIP) and the terrific Jennifer Saunders (“Absolutely Fabulous”), for example, might dispute that their work is second rate.
  55. Anonymous[215] • Disclaimer says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike
    Somewhat OT - The Irishman stinks. DeNiro is terribly miscast as a hulking Irish goon, and I say that as a hulking Irish goon.

    The scene where he murders German POW's was gratuitous and pornographic. We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.

    Al Pacino reprises the role he played in Scent of a Women, which is pretty much the same role he has played in every movie since then.

    MS's usual brilliant attention to period detail, history, and long continuous shots can't save an otherwise dull and meandering Goodfellas/Sopranos casting reunion.

    Tough, but fair assessment, although I wouldn’t go as far as saying it “stinks”.

    You’re right about DeNiro being miscast. Pacino is also miscast as the German Hoffa. Pacino reprises his role from Scent of a Woman and The Devil’s Advocate. He tends to play some combo of those roles in all his movies.

    I thought the German POW scene was relatively sympathetic to the Germans. I think it was meant to explain partly why or how he became a hardened killer and wasn’t just a routine psychopath.

    I don’t think Scorsese had total freedom and control with respect to casting and directing the movie. He has to defer a lot to DeNiro and Pacino and basically let them do whatever they want in making the movie.

    The de-aging thing didn’t always work either. There’s a scene where DeNiro is supposed to be a young father who beats up a shopkeeper, but while his face is de-aged, he still moves and shuffles like an older man while beating up the guy:

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Pat Hannagan
    I stopped watching it at the end of that ridiculous scene for exactly the reason you describe: "[DeNiro]still moves and shuffles like an older man while beating up the guy"

    From start of the movie up to that scene The Irishman is pure cringe entirely due to the fact it looks like 80 year olds made up to look like 70 year olds playing tough guy 30 year olds.

    Mike's original assessment that the movie "stinks" is 100% spot-on. This review summed it up for me: https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/11/16/the-irishman-review-an-early-bird-special-for-gangsters/

    The Irishman comes off as this longwinded geriatric fart with a smell that lingers in a room with no windows that you’re trapped in for three and a half hours. All the mob hits in the world aren’t going to get that smell out.

    Have you ever been forced to talk to old people like your grandparents, but they just talk forever without ever giving you a chance to speak? That’s The Irishman except there are more dead cows dangling from meat hooks and being shot in the face involved.

    This is that story your grandfather has told you dozens of times before, so it’s lost all meaning and isn’t nearly as exhilarating as it used to be.

    Do you know what the difference is between being shot in the face and listening to old men talk about nothing for three and a half hours? Being shot in the face isn’t as painful. “I heard you paint houses,” is more like watching paint dry.

    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    Thanks.

    "I thought the German POW scene was relatively sympathetic to the Germans. I think it was meant to explain partly why or how he became a hardened killer and wasn’t just a routine psychopath."

    I have heard that explanation and I don't buy it. A majority of organized criminals aren't made the way they are because of military experience, and a majority of combat veterans don't turn into emotionless killers. The scene is just pure "Don't forget about the Nazis, and why were the Nazis bad again? Oh yeah..."
  56. @Jack D
    The previous seasons were slightly funnier. My wife was a big fan and last night she literally fell asleep during the season 3 opener.

    Previous seasons were worthwhile for the big budget sets. There was a scene set in a NY garment factory that was faithful to the last detail and it wasn't even key to the plot. I hadn't seen anything like it for 40 years. Mrs Maisels dad was a Columbia math professor and they lived in an apartment that would be the envy of a hedge fund guy.

    I’m between you and Steve.

    I thought the first show, with her getting drunk and just stumbling into riffing on her husband’s marital betrayal on stage was pretty good, pretty funny. But then … it heads downhill. There was maybe one more routine that was actually funny, funny.

    The period stuff is good. (I remember the garment factory scene you’re mentioning.) But … to what end? The characters aren’t sympathetic. The husband is mewling, pathetic–but hey, she picked him! She isn’t sympathetic either. Her mom’s a loon. Maybe the gal’s dad. He’s ok.

    But the main issue: there’s really only one joke–50s housewife can talk dirty. And after awhile … who cares? Maybe this one should have just been a movie? It wears out it’s welcome. Not just Y-chromosomed me. AnotherMom lost interest.

    Turns out women aren’t funny?

    • Replies: @Laurence Whelk

    But the main issue: there’s really only one joke–50s housewife can talk dirty. And after awhile … who cares?
     
    My wife likes this show; I tolerate it but I find Mrs. Maisel irritating with her complete self absorption and incessant rapid-fire yammering “offstage”.

    The mopey husband (ex?) is completely unsympathetic and him being with this striking woman puts a real strain on believability.

    The worst character of all is the short stocky butch bridge-troll manager/sidekick. I pointed out to my wife that this character has no funny lines at all - she just says “f***” every third word. After a couple more episodes my lovely wife turned to me and “you’re right!” Now she can’t unsee it.

    Tony Shaloub, the guy playing the father, is the only person in this show who is genuinely funny.
    , @SFG
    Some are. The point is that it doesn't get you points with men (as a woman) as it's an assertion of dominance, so most women don't bother. A lot fewer women are willing to work 90-hour weeks to become CEO--you waste your fertile years and it scares the guys away, so it's not an effective strategy. Getting into an elite business school to snag a CEO husband, well, that's another story.

    I went out with a comedian once. Said being funny never got guys, but women were interested in her.

    , @Balrog's Therapist
    As quid pro quo (I had just made her watch 'The Great Escape), my wife made me watch 1st episode of MM. After 15 minutes she was crying Uncle, but oh no, you wanted to watch it.. I threw in the towel after another 5 minutes. We both couldn't believe how stilted it was, and we both thought the leads fake Noo Yawk accent was beyond cringe.

    People will watch anything to fill the emptiness of their lives. For instance, 'The Irishman.' My God, what were they thinking? It opens in a nursing home! And shoulda stayed there. After watching DeNiro do a pretty poor imitation of himself, getting used to the creepy CGI retro-aging, watching them make E. Howard Hunt out to be a weirdo (never mind about the deathbed confession), and watching Pacino chew the scenery ala SNL, we got up to DeNiro being made a Teamsters local boss and I noticed my wife was asleep. Hardly surprising; I was hoping Paulie from Goodfellas would show up and just shoot them all.

    I paused it and couldn't believe mine eyes when I saw there were 2 HOURS LEFT!

    And people are saying "you need to watch it several times to really pick up all the visual tropes." I'd rather watch a test pattern for 2 hours. At least it wouldn't suck.
  57. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    I suppose it could happen but American hospitals realized the problem long ago and did stuff like take footprints immediately after birth, put ID bracelets on the kid, etc. Someone determined could circumvent but what do you get out of it?

    Someone determined could circumvent but what do you get out of it?

    The sheer joy of doing it. Same reason people do all sorts of illegal and destructive stuff. What does a punk get out of throwing stuff off a bridge onto oncoming cars, or those guys in a small town in which I lived who were caught jacking off in the breakfast biscuit gravy at the Hardee’s?

    In this case the perp could figure no one would find out. Females usually don’t do stuff like this, the key word is “usually”. No one dies, a few privileged kids get prole upbringings and vice versa maybe. If it did happen, the nurse was probably bored out of her gourd and wanted to do something to make things more interesting for her.

    But most switchings were probably accidental. People make mistakes. Footprints-I found my father’s old hospital birth certificate after he died and the footprints were illegible, I doubt they were legible even then. And how many people footprint their kids and compare them? Most hospital birth certs (which are not the same as state certificates of live birth, which do not have footprints) got put in those Baby Books and got lost in moves and so forth.

    Switchings weren’t common, but they weren’t unheard of either and in all likelihood most of them were never detected. A lot of them would result in the switchee go through life and die with no one ever the wiser. In those pre-DNA days how could you prove it except on the off chance the blood groups were an impossible result?

    • Replies: @prosa123
    those guys in a small town in which I lived who were caught jacking off in the breakfast biscuit gravy at the Hardee’s?

    Were they caught before or after people ate the gravy?
    , @Reg Cæsar

    What does a punk get out of throwing stuff off a bridge onto oncoming cars, or those guys in a small town in which I lived who were caught jacking off in the breakfast biscuit gravy at the Hardee’s?
     
    Come again? A Hardee's man is good to find, rdrr.


    https://images.booksense.com/images/652/364/9780156364652.jpg

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gSFd_2oJgak
    , @Reg Cæsar
    At Jack's. Where else?


    https://www.barstoolsports.com/post/fast-food-employee-who-put-period-blood-on-a-customers-burger-should-be-sentenced-to-death
  58. @Harry Baldwin
    I liked the last joke Joan Rivers told, in July 2014. Rivers was asked by a reporter whether the U.S. will ever see a gay president. The 81-year-old Rivers responded, "We already have it with Obama, so let's just calm down," adding, "You know Michelle is a tranny."

    She was dead two months later. Cue ominous music.

    She really was in peak form until the end, and would probably have still been going strong today if it weren’t for the medical malpractice that killed her.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Hmm, what became of the doctor? Was he disciplined, did he retire, did he all of a sudden buy a bigger house in the Hamptons or a big airplane or something? Anything to indicate someone might have made it worth his while to, you know, make an oops?
    , @Steve Sailer
    Right. Joan Rivers in her early 80s was making a huge amount of money touring right up to the day she died. There's a documentary about her shot a year or two before her death and she was going almost as strong as ever. I'm sure she made more money off stand-up than other woman in history.
  59. Anonymous[166] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.
     
    No, Americans are the worst people ever, according to the movie made by Leftie De Niro. They make prisoners dig their own graves and then shoot them. That's exactly the kind of thing that the Nazis did, a lot. Americans - not so much. In the few cases where Americans shot prisoners it was usually because the American troops were enraged because they had just encountered one of the countless German atrocities.

    De Niro was the driving force behind this project so he cast himself as Sheeran, which was terrible casting. Not only was Sheeran a hulking Irish goon, he was a hulking Irish-Swedish goon and was nothing like De Niro. He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn't just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales. He was union muscle meaning that he'd go out and break guys kneecaps with a tire iron but no one would have trusted him with a contract to do a hit. He's probably get drunk on the down payment and then forget to do it.

    He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn’t just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales.

    Strangely enough, there was a hulking Polish-Irish goon named Richard Kuklinski who claimed to be a mafia hitman and to have killed Hoffa. Kuklinski was 6’5″, 270 lbs, and nicknamed “The Polack”, although he was better known as “The Iceman”, because apparently sometimes he would freeze his victims to conceal their time of death.

    Kuklinski was convicted of murder and had to serve 2 life sentences, although I don’t think the murders he was convicted for were mafia related. He was also the subject of 3 HBO documentaries, in which he was interviewed and talks coldly and explicitly about his gruesome murders, which he claims numbered from 100 to over 250 victims. He also says he was a mafia hitman involved in high profile hits such as mob bosses and Hoffa. There was also a Hollywood movie about him that came out in 2012.

    The parallels between Sheeran and Kuklinski are quite strange.

  60. @Father O'Hara
    RFK's Senate opponent:talk about obscurity !

    Kenneth Keating

  61. @Steve Sailer
    Right.

    Joan Rivers got fired from her 3 person comedy troupe in 1964 because they'd been hired to open for an RFK for Senate appearance but she insisted upon wearing a button endorsing RFK's Republican opponent.

    Joan was the only woman in the trio. Also, the candidate she was supporting was the incumbent Kenneth Keating, who went on to be appointed Ambassador to India, then Israel, both by Nixon.

  62. @Harry Baldwin
    I liked the last joke Joan Rivers told, in July 2014. Rivers was asked by a reporter whether the U.S. will ever see a gay president. The 81-year-old Rivers responded, "We already have it with Obama, so let's just calm down," adding, "You know Michelle is a tranny."

    She was dead two months later. Cue ominous music.

    Rivers used to get angry when she was compared with Don Rickles, who was another comedian from her generation who was still doing stand-up shows.

    Why? Simple. Don was doing the same act he’d done for 30 years, while Rivers constantly updated hers. So she was out there sweating herself and trying out new material while Don was just playing the hits. She didn’t hate Don (she made it clear she loved him), but the comparison made her upset just for the differences.

    • Replies: @jimbo
    Except Rickles never "did the same act". The reason most comedians were in awe of him was that he didn't do material, he just got up on stage and riffed and "did Don Rickles" for however long he needed to...
  63. @Steve Sailer
    I remember a letter to the editor in the LA Times responding to that argument: Writer pointed out 4 most popular stand ups ever in the US -- Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Bob Hope, and Johnny Carson -- were WASPs.

    Speaking of Johnny, he correctly figured out that while Joan could guest host for him one day a week, she wasn’t likable to be on TV every night.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    Nah, Johnny had BPD, megalomania, and paranoia, so if he even thought you'd crossed him, he'd cut you out forever, even if he'd been your friend for 30+ years---as many stories of his former friends attest to. When Rivers took a deal at a rival network without asking his permission, he cut her out of his life forever----would never even allow her to apologize. Sad, because Rivers could've been the first successful female late night talk show host if Carson had blessed her taking the Tonight Show.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Did he pressure guests not to appear on her show? IIRC, he took offense at the competition.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Being good at doing 5 talk shows a week is a pretty rare talent.
  64. @Steve Sailer
    It wins tons of awards.

    The distinctive thing about the show is that it really really likes expensive costumes and sets for the sheer Let's Put on a Show joy of expensive costumes and sets. I don't think that's contrived. It could have been a much better show about a young woman in 1960 fighting to be accepted by the gay mafia that, say, runs Broadway show set design as a real talent, but they didn't have the courage to go there. So, instead, they just did the Life of Joan Rivers (if Joan hadn't been funny).

    Awards mean nothing these days. We all saw how critics gave crap movies like Star Wars: The Last White Guy and Captain Manhater and Girlbusters . The audiences hated them, and the critics tongue-bathed them. And then we’ve noticed for at least 20-30 years that all the Oscar bait movies not only bash western civ, but suck as well.

    So all these “critically acclaimed” shows aren’t big hits, because white males have learned critics are liars.

  65. @ScarletNumber
    Speaking of Johnny, he correctly figured out that while Joan could guest host for him one day a week, she wasn't likable to be on TV every night.

    Nah, Johnny had BPD, megalomania, and paranoia, so if he even thought you’d crossed him, he’d cut you out forever, even if he’d been your friend for 30+ years—as many stories of his former friends attest to. When Rivers took a deal at a rival network without asking his permission, he cut her out of his life forever—-would never even allow her to apologize. Sad, because Rivers could’ve been the first successful female late night talk show host if Carson had blessed her taking the Tonight Show.

  66. @Clifford Brown
    Finally a television series we can all relate to.

    https://twitter.com/WiP_SHO/status/1189958085525327872

    https://twitter.com/Showtime/status/1201546569268396032

    Dennis Prager?

  67. @Dave Pinsen
    She really was in peak form until the end, and would probably have still been going strong today if it weren't for the medical malpractice that killed her.

    Hmm, what became of the doctor? Was he disciplined, did he retire, did he all of a sudden buy a bigger house in the Hamptons or a big airplane or something? Anything to indicate someone might have made it worth his while to, you know, make an oops?

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    He, or his practice, or his insurance company, settled a wrongful death lawsuit brought by Joan’s daughter. I’m not sure what other consequences there were, if any.
  68. I’m wondering why there aren’t more Jews complaining about Rachel O’Brosnahan and her lack of actual Jewishness. Come on – the woman gets meat to feed her rabbi from a butcher who sells pork chops? Feh!

    • LOL: Hibernian
  69. If the ratings are really down, perhaps the could be picked back up via the simple expedient of having the protagonists cousin – identical cousin – show up? No one’s ever tried that before!

  70. Anybody with any taste or any sense of his own mortality and limited time on this Earth has long since sent a cinder block flying through his TV screen and ran away in the other direction, screaming. If you guys are still watching this dreck, you’re part of the problem.

    • Agree: jim jones
    • LOL: Dumbo
    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    I've been following this thread with increasingly surprise and bewilderment.
    Jack D an expert on sit-coms? Who'd have thought it.
    , @Lot
    While I am anti-boob-tube in principle, it is hard to deny we’re in a golden age of TV.

    (Sit-coms are the exception, I’d put their gold ages from roughly 62-68 and again 88-97. )

    The best solution to this quandary is found at eztv.io and thepiratebay.org (when it is actually working).

    The slight hassle of torrenting keeps you from veging out in front of the TV, and for me at least keeps me watching only about 2 hours of TV a week compared 10+ when I had cable. It also stops your money from going to people who hate you in Hollywood.
  71. @ScarletNumber
    Speaking of Johnny, he correctly figured out that while Joan could guest host for him one day a week, she wasn't likable to be on TV every night.

    Did he pressure guests not to appear on her show? IIRC, he took offense at the competition.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Like a lot of funny men (and women, not that there are many truly funny women) he was a miserable human being in real life. He was the kind of person who would cut you off forever if he perceived some insult, even if you had been a close friend for 20 years. Joan Rivers crossed some line with him and that was it.
  72. @JimB
    In his book Funny People, Steve Allen claims nearly all America's funniest comedians are Jewish, black, or Irish because they use humor as a defense against persecution and social ostracism.

    Have Jews, blacks, or Irish been persecuted or socially ostracized in America within the last half century? Anthony Jeselnik is one of the funniest stand-up comics today and he doesn’t belong to any of those groups.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Have Jews, blacks, or Irish been persecuted or socially ostracized in America within the last half century?

    Neither Jews nor Irish were ever persecuted in this country in any common and systematic way. They weren't welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.
    , @Hibernian
    From the Wikipedia article on Jeselnik:

    In his early twenties, Jeselnik moved to Los Angeles and was working at a Borders when he first tried standup. He found a book by writer and comedian Greg Dean that promoted Dean's Santa Monica comedy workshops.[5][6] In his first attempt at a joke, Jeselnik did an impression of his father being stung by wasps.
     
    , @Kratoklastes
    Jeselnik is a genuine comedic one-of-a-kind. Billy Ginger-Balls is getting a bit too screechy, although his "It's Never OK To Hit A Woman... Really?" bit had me in pain from laughing.

    Jeselnik's dead-baby bits just edge Burr's best, for me. Also, only Jeselnik gets away with this ->

    My mom, for most of her life, was a Holocaust denier. And it was terrible for the entire family to have to deal with until, finally, a couple years ago, we had an intervention. And we had a rabbi come into the home, had him walk her through the history of the Jewish people, and then he made her watch “Schindler’s List." And after that, my mom did a complete 180. Now she can’t believe it only happened once.
     
    , @ScarletNumber

    Anthony Jeselnik is one of the funniest stand-up comics today
     
    Yet he isn't famous. It is generally accepted that he was the brains behind Amy Schumer's rise to fame. Once she got going she dumped him, then the general public figured out that she wasn't all that funny. Then she put on weight and we didn't even want to look at her anymore.
    , @JimB
    Steve Allen was a relic of the 50s and 60s, and comedians spend a lifetime dining out on what they learned in middle school so Allen is probably thinking about pre-Civil Rights Era comedians reflecting on life in PS 111 in 1935. Most of the bullying and persecution was due to black kids, but joking about black bullies would be punching down, so they blame their childhood misery on the Italians, Poles, and WASPs.
  73. @Jack D

    We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.
     
    No, Americans are the worst people ever, according to the movie made by Leftie De Niro. They make prisoners dig their own graves and then shoot them. That's exactly the kind of thing that the Nazis did, a lot. Americans - not so much. In the few cases where Americans shot prisoners it was usually because the American troops were enraged because they had just encountered one of the countless German atrocities.

    De Niro was the driving force behind this project so he cast himself as Sheeran, which was terrible casting. Not only was Sheeran a hulking Irish goon, he was a hulking Irish-Swedish goon and was nothing like De Niro. He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn't just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales. He was union muscle meaning that he'd go out and break guys kneecaps with a tire iron but no one would have trusted him with a contract to do a hit. He's probably get drunk on the down payment and then forget to do it.

    I just read that article from Slate you linked to awhile back.

    Thanks.

  74. There were a couple of scenes in the first season that seemed gratuitously anti-gentile to me: when Mr Maisel decides to get serious about making money he instantaneously outwits his gentile employers with an aggressive business strategy they were too timid to propose, and when we visit the successful gentile comedienne she’s spent her (implausible) fortune on tacky christian icons. This wasn’t realism, it was blatant, offensive racism.

    • Agree: Cloudbuster
  75. @Cloudbuster
    What a disaster that the ideology she is pushing in that routine -- opposing social pressure for girls to marry early -- took root. If only we could go back and show people then the fruits of that idea -- bitter, lonely career women, depressed male wages, the near death of the single income family, demographic decline.

    Many recent TV historical dramas like “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel” and “Mad Men” seemed to focus on the fun and newness of those ideas early on in the early 1960s. But never focus on the nasty intellectual/cultural hangovers in the 1970s.

  76. @Desiderius
    Things have turned more... tragic for WASPs since then.

    Are there any other good books detailing the decline of the WASPs?

    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    E. Digby Baltzell, who coined the term, might be a good start.

    (Man, they don't make racists and anti-Semites like they used to. Or maybe you're just starting out in the racially obsessed world of the alt-right.)
    , @Reg Cæsar
    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51-ILOaf9lL._SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_FMwebp_.jpg


    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51IP-2AE76L._AC_UL160_.jpg

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51j-Cotwr3L._SL300_.jpg
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Are there any other good books detailing the decline of the WASPs?
     
    Calling slumber_j ! Reviews of a relatively recent book (I haven’t read it) :

    Cheerful Money
    Me, My Family, and the Last Days of Wasp Splendor

     
    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112742316

    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/books/review/Gray-t.html
  77. I hadn’t even heard of the show until reading this … So, there are some advantages to living abroad.

  78. @Altai
    There are rumours that it only lasted more than one series because the lead actress is or was having an affair with Bezos.

    She’s a fine looking woman, and the right age; certainly worth a billionaire blowing up his marriage for, so the rumour seems extremely implausible.

  79. @Bugg
    Jews don't like looking at Jewish actresses acting as Jews in movies and shows about Jews. They farm the job out to a better looking class of people. Stopped watching this show after a few episodes because of this. Ms. Brosnahan goes over the top with the Noo Yawk Jew thing past the point of distraction. More plausible she would be stepdancing or tipping a pint or singing "Fairytale of New York" with Christmas on tap.

    Witness also "The Wolf of Wall Street". I saw Jordan Belfort on a podcast last week, and he looks like he just left Zabar's on his way to sit shiva.

    I have an old work colleague/Facebook friend who like Belfort is a Log Island Jew; nice guy. He posted a photo of his dark-skinned brown-eyed black haired daughter extolling how she looks so much like Mrs. Maisel. Doubt he ever heard of Maureen O'Hara.

    The minor Netflix series Russian Doll featured an actress of Orthodox Jewish heritage playing an openly Jewish character. Even the depiction of New York is more honestly Jewish; certainly more than you’d expect based on everything else on screen.

  80. I smell a “trope” here.

    • Replies: @Glaivester
    Technically, it is trivia, and does not go on a trope page.
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeNationality
  81. @JimB
    In his book Funny People, Steve Allen claims nearly all America's funniest comedians are Jewish, black, or Irish because they use humor as a defense against persecution and social ostracism.

    Or the media execs who make and break careers are Jewish, and like Jewish humor, so that’s what we get subjected to.

  82. @JimB
    In his book Funny People, Steve Allen claims nearly all America's funniest comedians are Jewish, black, or Irish because they use humor as a defense against persecution and social ostracism.

    Steve Allen was smart and entertaining, but if he ever said that he was talking rot (and had to know it).

  83. anon[136] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    I suppose it could happen but American hospitals realized the problem long ago and did stuff like take footprints immediately after birth, put ID bracelets on the kid, etc. Someone determined could circumvent but what do you get out of it?

    …what do you get out of it?

    In Once Upon a Time in America, the gangsters perform a kidnapping-without-a-kidnapping by swapping around all the name tags on the kids, and demanding a quid pro quo before they’ll reveal who got swapped with who.

    So you could get the police to back off your union friends, or whatever it was they wanted.

  84. You don’t have to imagine this parallel universe. Just travel to Mt. Greenwood in Chicago.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Mt. Greenwood is an Irish neighborhood, but why would it, with any particularity, relate to the Irish/Jewish theme of this article?
  85. @Jack D
    Stand up comedy is very hard to fake - it's like faking being a classical musician (or any musician). Usually comedy shows (e.g. Seinfeld) work the other way - you take someone who is already a comedian and teach them to act enough to be in a sitcom, which is much easier than vice versa.

    I don't think the idea of a show built around a young Joan Rivers type character in NY circa 1960 is a bad one. Brosnahan does it pretty well for an Irish chick. I think it was enough material for around 2 seasons worth. They just seem to have run out of steam in season 3, at least in episode 1.

    Had this very conversation with my wife last night after she watched a couple of episodes of the new season. Initially it was a pretty good show with killer sets, but the NYC Jewishness of it is tiresome and it’s not funny. My wife still likes it though.

  86. @Jack D
    Stand up comedy is very hard to fake - it's like faking being a classical musician (or any musician). Usually comedy shows (e.g. Seinfeld) work the other way - you take someone who is already a comedian and teach them to act enough to be in a sitcom, which is much easier than vice versa.

    I don't think the idea of a show built around a young Joan Rivers type character in NY circa 1960 is a bad one. Brosnahan does it pretty well for an Irish chick. I think it was enough material for around 2 seasons worth. They just seem to have run out of steam in season 3, at least in episode 1.

    “Stand up comedy is very hard to fake – it’s like faking being a classical musician (or any musician).”

    It’s impossible to fake being a classical musician. I mean, onstage.

    Impersonating Yo Yo Ma offstage? That might be the premise of a comedy.

    “Brosnahan does it pretty well for an Irish chick.”

    Cringe. You’ll never fit in here, Jack.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Fit in? Jack D defines what it is to be an Unz commenter.
  87. @Kronos
    Are there any other good books detailing the decline of the WASPs?

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PFVDAS2aL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    E. Digby Baltzell, who coined the term, might be a good start.

    (Man, they don’t make racists and anti-Semites like they used to. Or maybe you’re just starting out in the racially obsessed world of the alt-right.)

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Was the guy legit or very PC?
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican

    E. Digby Baltzell, who coined the term
     
    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/books/review/Gray-t.html

    Correction: October 18, 2009
    A review on Sept. 27 about “Cheerful Money: Me, My Family, and the Last Days of Wasp Splendor,” by Tad Friend, misstated the sociologist E. Digby Baltzell’s connection with the term White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Though he popularized both the expression and its acronym, WASP, in his 1964 book “The Protestant Establishment,” he did not coin either one.

     
  88. Anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike
    Somewhat OT - The Irishman stinks. DeNiro is terribly miscast as a hulking Irish goon, and I say that as a hulking Irish goon.

    The scene where he murders German POW's was gratuitous and pornographic. We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.

    Al Pacino reprises the role he played in Scent of a Women, which is pretty much the same role he has played in every movie since then.

    MS's usual brilliant attention to period detail, history, and long continuous shots can't save an otherwise dull and meandering Goodfellas/Sopranos casting reunion.

    At times, Al Pacino seemed like he didn’t know what movie he was in. There was one scene, where I am fairly sure he forgot his lines.

    Also, throughout the movie, the actors’ statures and heights seemed inconsistent. And sure enough….

    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    In person De Niro is about 5'6", maybe 5'7".
  89. @Father O'Hara
    RFK's Senate opponent:talk about obscurity !

    He was the incumbent; not obscure at the time.

  90. @Jack D

    We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.
     
    No, Americans are the worst people ever, according to the movie made by Leftie De Niro. They make prisoners dig their own graves and then shoot them. That's exactly the kind of thing that the Nazis did, a lot. Americans - not so much. In the few cases where Americans shot prisoners it was usually because the American troops were enraged because they had just encountered one of the countless German atrocities.

    De Niro was the driving force behind this project so he cast himself as Sheeran, which was terrible casting. Not only was Sheeran a hulking Irish goon, he was a hulking Irish-Swedish goon and was nothing like De Niro. He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn't just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales. He was union muscle meaning that he'd go out and break guys kneecaps with a tire iron but no one would have trusted him with a contract to do a hit. He's probably get drunk on the down payment and then forget to do it.

    Not only was Sheeran a hulking Irish goon, he was a hulking Irish-Swedish goon and was nothing like De Niro. He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn’t just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales.

    A stereotype three times over.

  91. @Dave Pinsen
    Have Jews, blacks, or Irish been persecuted or socially ostracized in America within the last half century? Anthony Jeselnik is one of the funniest stand-up comics today and he doesn't belong to any of those groups.

    Have Jews, blacks, or Irish been persecuted or socially ostracized in America within the last half century?

    Neither Jews nor Irish were ever persecuted in this country in any common and systematic way. They weren’t welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.

    • Replies: @Jack D

    They weren’t welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.
     
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of "persecution". I realize that by European standards of ethnic cleansing (mass starvation, pogroms, genocide, etc.) the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. Compare to the 7th circle of Hell or the Black Hole of Calcutta, the Lower East Side in the 19th century was a great place. And rarely has any immigrant group been welcomed with open arms - the Indians didn't exactly bring the welcome wagon around for the white settlers.

    But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren't actually "persecuted". America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem, where ancient forms of prejudice no longer held sway. So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.
  92. @Jack D

    We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.
     
    No, Americans are the worst people ever, according to the movie made by Leftie De Niro. They make prisoners dig their own graves and then shoot them. That's exactly the kind of thing that the Nazis did, a lot. Americans - not so much. In the few cases where Americans shot prisoners it was usually because the American troops were enraged because they had just encountered one of the countless German atrocities.

    De Niro was the driving force behind this project so he cast himself as Sheeran, which was terrible casting. Not only was Sheeran a hulking Irish goon, he was a hulking Irish-Swedish goon and was nothing like De Niro. He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn't just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales. He was union muscle meaning that he'd go out and break guys kneecaps with a tire iron but no one would have trusted him with a contract to do a hit. He's probably get drunk on the down payment and then forget to do it.

    Israelis made Egyptian prisoners of war to dig their own graves, then shot them.

    • Replies: @Anonymouse
    That's a new one. I remember that the Egyptians surrendered en masse in 1967 and were repatriated eventually, many thousands of them.
  93. @Dave Pinsen
    Have Jews, blacks, or Irish been persecuted or socially ostracized in America within the last half century? Anthony Jeselnik is one of the funniest stand-up comics today and he doesn't belong to any of those groups.

    From the Wikipedia article on Jeselnik:

    In his early twenties, Jeselnik moved to Los Angeles and was working at a Borders when he first tried standup. He found a book by writer and comedian Greg Dean that promoted Dean’s Santa Monica comedy workshops.[5][6] In his first attempt at a joke, Jeselnik did an impression of his father being stung by wasps.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    He has an evil sense of humor, but he’s extremely funny.

    https://youtu.be/DG7LANr3Saw
  94. @Cloudbuster
    What a disaster that the ideology she is pushing in that routine -- opposing social pressure for girls to marry early -- took root. If only we could go back and show people then the fruits of that idea -- bitter, lonely career women, depressed male wages, the near death of the single income family, demographic decline.

    What a disaster that the ideology she is pushing in that routine — opposing social pressure for girls to marry early — took root.

    Agree.

    Also notice that she very much took for granted that one selected a partner for intelligence and occupations based on intelligence. Assortative mating taken as a given then; not so much now with a change in politics.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    Assortative mating based on IQ is MORE of a thing now than in the 50s/60s. College grads, especially with advanced degrees, rarely marry someone without a degree. That happened all the time back then, with both men and women. High IQ men got with pretty/average IQ secretaries. High IQ women from middle class/poorer families generally had zero access to higher education, so they were content to settle down with their town’s mechanics or factory workers. This is what happened with my grandmother: she’s extremely bright even in advanced age and most of her brothers (who are also quite sharp) got college scholarships and two even went on to work for NASA. But she and her sister never left their small hometown and married pretty regular guys.
  95. @Steve Sailer
    I remember a letter to the editor in the LA Times responding to that argument: Writer pointed out 4 most popular stand ups ever in the US -- Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Bob Hope, and Johnny Carson -- were WASPs.

    Writer pointed out 4 most popular stand ups ever in the US — Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Bob Hope, and Johnny Carson — were WASPs.

    Will Rogers was nearly as much of a WASP as George Lopez is.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    IOW a lot more Indian than Elizabeth Warren. Hoover's VP Charles Curtis was similar.
  96. OT: Has Steve seen this?

    Adam Schiff’s son wearing a Mossad t-shirt! (And now I have to wonder if it’s official merchandise) In a posed photograph that Adam Schiff chose to post to his congressional Facebook and Instagram accounts!

    The top Instagram comment is amazing:

    I particularly like your sons Mossad t-shirt, Adam. Happy Father’s Day to you and your Dad. You are a beacon of light to me and millions of other Americans who want and need a champion in Washington, D.C. to fight a form of demagoguery and authoritarianism unprecedented in our history. Thank you for everything you do and have done.

    We’re reaching self-awareness levels that shouldn’t be possible.

    http://archive.is/ejc1u

    • Replies: @El Dato
    "Sometimes the answer is staring you in the face"
    , @Yngvar
    Even I got a Mossad tee, it's no big deal. Vendors sell them wherever tourists congregate. I was hoping that using it on social occasions could be a conversation starter (or quarrels, I love quarreling while drunk), but it is mostly ignored. So, sorry Adam Schiffs son -- Mossad get no respect.
  97. @Jack D

    We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.
     
    No, Americans are the worst people ever, according to the movie made by Leftie De Niro. They make prisoners dig their own graves and then shoot them. That's exactly the kind of thing that the Nazis did, a lot. Americans - not so much. In the few cases where Americans shot prisoners it was usually because the American troops were enraged because they had just encountered one of the countless German atrocities.

    De Niro was the driving force behind this project so he cast himself as Sheeran, which was terrible casting. Not only was Sheeran a hulking Irish goon, he was a hulking Irish-Swedish goon and was nothing like De Niro. He had about a foot on De Niro and wasn't just tall, he was Big and Tall. He was also NOT a hit man. He was an Irish drunk who told tall tales. He was union muscle meaning that he'd go out and break guys kneecaps with a tire iron but no one would have trusted him with a contract to do a hit. He's probably get drunk on the down payment and then forget to do it.

    I disagree with your assessment in your first paragraph, but then again, our world views are mostly different aren’t they?

    Your second paragraph is mostly a repeat of what I said, so I’m not sure why you felt the need to do so. Further, I’ve been in the trucking business in Chicago for 17 years, and am a teamster. As soon as the movie came out, the old timers quickly set the record straight about what Sheeran was.

  98. @Dave Pinsen
    Have Jews, blacks, or Irish been persecuted or socially ostracized in America within the last half century? Anthony Jeselnik is one of the funniest stand-up comics today and he doesn't belong to any of those groups.

    Jeselnik is a genuine comedic one-of-a-kind. Billy Ginger-Balls is getting a bit too screechy, although his “It’s Never OK To Hit A Woman… Really?” bit had me in pain from laughing.

    Jeselnik’s dead-baby bits just edge Burr’s best, for me. Also, only Jeselnik gets away with this ->

    My mom, for most of her life, was a Holocaust denier. And it was terrible for the entire family to have to deal with until, finally, a couple years ago, we had an intervention. And we had a rabbi come into the home, had him walk her through the history of the Jewish people, and then he made her watch “Schindler’s List.” And after that, my mom did a complete 180. Now she can’t believe it only happened once.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I think my favorite bit of his is the one about kids playing hide and seek.
  99. The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel…. I have seen some of this. It is a solid 50s-60s period piece. I liked the Lenny Bruce portrayal. Do Americans know this is Jewish based? Dirty Dancing movie was slightly obscured Jewish, but I think many un-Jews missed that part. At Amazon it has (3,093) reviews. A hardy perennial.

    My favorites on so called TV (is any time you want streaming really TV?) are Ray Donovan, Billions and Bosch. All are series. All have lots of black humor. I prefer them to movies these days and look forward to new seasons, even though they have a pathetic 8-10 episodes per season.
    Ray Donovan just started a new season.

  100. @Dave Pinsen
    Did he pressure guests not to appear on her show? IIRC, he took offense at the competition.

    Like a lot of funny men (and women, not that there are many truly funny women) he was a miserable human being in real life. He was the kind of person who would cut you off forever if he perceived some insult, even if you had been a close friend for 20 years. Joan Rivers crossed some line with him and that was it.

    • Replies: @Anon
    If the only reference you have to go by is the attorney he fired for stealing from him, you probably don’t have a lot to go on. Johnny ended their relationship abruptly, but he could have turned it into front page news. He let the attorney off the hook, to carry on without him, instead of ruining him forever. I’d say that was pretty nice of him. Not the act of a miserable person. Miserable people like to spread it around.

    According to Johnny, his mother was quite a piece of work. Probably made him sensitive to shitheads within his ranks. As far as the drinking, about everyone was drinking in the television industry at that time. People didn’t care if you were an alcoholic. You could show up to work drunk every day, if you wanted. All they cared about was if you were a functional alcoholic. If you could remember your lines, hit your cues, show up on time, while drunk, it was all good enough.

    And finally, I know you have no way of knowing this, and never will but, if you have over $100 million dollars in the bank, it’s impossible to be what you call miserable. You might get frustrated, annoyed, bored. But miserable? No. That’s a middle-class/poor persons thing. Stay in your own lane, and don’t judge rich people. You just look ridiculous.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Like a lot of funny men (and women, not that there are many truly funny women) he was a miserable human being in real life.
     
    His mother was a witch, or at least a witch's teat, so much so that he skipped her funeral. Freud would have been a natural guest had he lived long enough.
  101. @Dave Pinsen
    Saw the promo for that after the promo for The L-Word: The Next Generation.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/1198795963508428805?s=21

    I wonder how TLW:NG is going to handle transwomen. Will TERFs boycott the show if they’re included?

  102. @Currahee
    Yeah, the first season was kinda funny; but at season 2, the cast visits Paris to view the famous statue:
    Le Jompe du Shark.

    By season 10 she’ll have adopted a precocious Vietnamese orphan, moved to LA with the orphan and her new, younger husband (Noah Centineo), and be doing a local afternoon talk show.

  103. @Art Deco
    Have Jews, blacks, or Irish been persecuted or socially ostracized in America within the last half century?

    Neither Jews nor Irish were ever persecuted in this country in any common and systematic way. They weren't welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.

    They weren’t welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.

    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of “persecution”. I realize that by European standards of ethnic cleansing (mass starvation, pogroms, genocide, etc.) the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. Compare to the 7th circle of Hell or the Black Hole of Calcutta, the Lower East Side in the 19th century was a great place. And rarely has any immigrant group been welcomed with open arms – the Indians didn’t exactly bring the welcome wagon around for the white settlers.

    But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren’t actually “persecuted”. America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem, where ancient forms of prejudice no longer held sway. So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of “persecution”. I

    I have a dear cousin who was taken apart routinely in elementary and junior high school. From a distance, I'd say he still has some scar tissue left over from the experience, and he's 37 years old. He has a beautiful fiancee, a daughter who loves him, a sister who loves him, a mother who loves him, a job that pays the bills, a post-baccalaureate degree, a history as a college teacher, and a residue of friends from each place he's lived and worked over 20-odd years. Life is good, but some part of him is still the kid afraid to go to school each day.

    His life at age 12 was 10x worse than being blackballed by some country club or having a real-estate agent steer you away from certain suburban villages. If he referred to himself as a 'persecuted' individual, that would get some eyerolls. His was an everyday reality for a certain subset of the youth population, and there's mostly nothing to be done about it. The country clubs and the real estate steering is 50 years past.
    , @Ozymandias
    "So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so."

    Not a single human being in history ever has, let alone an entire civilization. Hard to put much stock into your "New Jerusalem" comment when you don't recognize the backbone tenet of Christianity. All are flawed and need redemption.
    , @William Badwhite

    America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem
     
    According to? These "ideals" you refer to amount to "we for some reason convinced ourselves to expect A, and instead found B. Naturally this is the fault of the goyim. The country they built and that we invited ourselves to falls short of my definition of perfection".

    "America" was a collection of primarily British colonies that got together and made a country. At no point did anyone say "hey lets be the New Jerusalem and make sure that we bend over backwards, inconvenience ourselves, remove our religion from the public sphere, etc in case 100+ years from now a bunch of Jews show up and decide they weren't sufficiently welcomed".
    , @XYZ (no Mr.)
    New Jerusalem? America was never supposed to be the New Jerusalem. The Massachusetts Bay Colony and Plymouth Colonies have sole claim to that, and Massachusetts Bay much more so than Plymouth. Projecting the desire of English Puritans onto the rest of North American settlement is pure nonsense. The vast majority of American colonists were not Puritans, or New England descendants of Puritans, and certainly did not have a Puritan vision for their own colonial settlements. All that 'City on a Hill' stuff, and the like, that continuously pops up is just distorted history used for emotional manipulation, by politicians, historians, pundits, etc with specific present day goals in mind.
    , @Hibernian
    A lot of immigrants never lived in the Lower East side or anything quite like it except briefly or maybe even not that. Not to say they weren't poor; they lived in neighborhoods like Chicago's Bridgeport or Back of the Yards and some housing was substandard, but the concrete jungle was rare in most American cities until high rise public housing projects came along.
    , @Jane Plain
    " the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. "

    Of the two groups cited, the Irish were treated way worse than Jews. They weren't threatened with family breakup as slaves were, but in the antebellum North, they were expendable cogs in the industrial machine and the Brahmin establishment loathed them. They died in industrial accidents like flies. No one cared. They were dirt. They were "mudsills." Look it up, counselor.

    Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination to control their (inevitable) upward social mobility, but the attitude towards them was more fear of a potentially fierce competitor rather than contempt.

    Italians were also loathed. The largest mass lynching in US history was of 11 Italian-American men in New Orleans:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_14,_1891_New_Orleans_lynchings

    Nothing comparable ever happened to Jews in the US. Would you say Italians were persecuted?

    "But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren’t actually “persecuted”. "

    It isn't hairsplitting, it's being factual. As I said, the Irish were treated like shit. But they weren't systematically persecuted. Italians were lynched en masse. But they weren't persecuted.

    Blacks were.

    The 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments weren't added because of Irish and Jewish immigrants. They were added to regularize the legal status of African-Americans, some of whose ancestors had been resident in the US for as long as eight generations before 1865.

    Irish and Jewish emigrants didn't have to drink from Irish and Jewish water fountains. They didn't have to sit in Irish and Jewish train cars. No one ever prevented Irish or Jews from voting because they were Irish or Jewish - quite the contrary, both groups caught onto the political machinery thing early on and used it to their advantage.

    There is a huge difference between being a greenhorn and being a slave, and then a freedman. Get some education before you spout off, counselor.

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.
     
    Like the zeroeth amendment?
  104. A thing I keep thinking throughout Mrs. Maisel is that maybe the obscenity laws were rigt and good. The concept of a Chesterton fence fits here.

  105. pretty Irish-American baby who grows up

    She certainly is grown up. How haven’t I heard about her before now? Hubba hubba. I have to go to Ireland one of these days, egad! And a natural blonde! Definitely have to watch this show.

  106. @Hodag
    You don't have to imagine this parallel universe. Just travel to Mt. Greenwood in Chicago.

    Mt. Greenwood is an Irish neighborhood, but why would it, with any particularity, relate to the Irish/Jewish theme of this article?

  107. So, these are the best standup bits from Mrs. Maisel, according to Amazon:

    On what planet is being harangued by a harpy funny?

    • Replies: @Lurker
    In the Current Year we're required to believe its hilarious!
    , @Mr. Anon
    It's funny. Don't ask questions. What are you, an anti-semite?
    , @ricpic
    The anger projection is a huge turnoff...for men.

    Maybe not so for women, maybe to women she's funny.
  108. @Jack D

    They weren’t welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.
     
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of "persecution". I realize that by European standards of ethnic cleansing (mass starvation, pogroms, genocide, etc.) the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. Compare to the 7th circle of Hell or the Black Hole of Calcutta, the Lower East Side in the 19th century was a great place. And rarely has any immigrant group been welcomed with open arms - the Indians didn't exactly bring the welcome wagon around for the white settlers.

    But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren't actually "persecuted". America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem, where ancient forms of prejudice no longer held sway. So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.

    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of “persecution”. I

    I have a dear cousin who was taken apart routinely in elementary and junior high school. From a distance, I’d say he still has some scar tissue left over from the experience, and he’s 37 years old. He has a beautiful fiancee, a daughter who loves him, a sister who loves him, a mother who loves him, a job that pays the bills, a post-baccalaureate degree, a history as a college teacher, and a residue of friends from each place he’s lived and worked over 20-odd years. Life is good, but some part of him is still the kid afraid to go to school each day.

    His life at age 12 was 10x worse than being blackballed by some country club or having a real-estate agent steer you away from certain suburban villages. If he referred to himself as a ‘persecuted’ individual, that would get some eyerolls. His was an everyday reality for a certain subset of the youth population, and there’s mostly nothing to be done about it. The country clubs and the real estate steering is 50 years past.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Discrimination against individuals for random reasons is completely different than systematic race or religious prejudice - the former is not even illegal, while the latter is.
    , @nebulafox
    I'm glad to hear he's doing well. Moving on and living a good life on your own terms is the best revenge.
  109. @Jack D
    I suppose it could happen but American hospitals realized the problem long ago and did stuff like take footprints immediately after birth, put ID bracelets on the kid, etc. Someone determined could circumvent but what do you get out of it?

    Meanwhile, paternity testing …

  110. “But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren’t actually “persecuted”

    No, it’s not. They weren’t persecuted. Everybody gets discriminated against, somewhere, sometime or other. It’s the universal human condition.

  111. @Altai
    There are rumours that it only lasted more than one series because the lead actress is or was having an affair with Bezos.

    Bezos doesn’t strike me as the type of guy capable of pulling off an affair, balancing more than one woman and keeping his emotions under control. He fell in love with the first woman besides his wife that let him have sex with her – some used up mud shark with mulatto kids – and he was sexting her, sending dick pics and sorts of mushy teenage stuff.

    He projects the image of a tough guy, but he’s still a beta dork inside. A few rolls in the hay with Rachel Brosnahan and he’d be all in on that, forgetting the mud shark and all the billions that cost him.

  112. @Jack D

    They weren’t welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.
     
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of "persecution". I realize that by European standards of ethnic cleansing (mass starvation, pogroms, genocide, etc.) the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. Compare to the 7th circle of Hell or the Black Hole of Calcutta, the Lower East Side in the 19th century was a great place. And rarely has any immigrant group been welcomed with open arms - the Indians didn't exactly bring the welcome wagon around for the white settlers.

    But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren't actually "persecuted". America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem, where ancient forms of prejudice no longer held sway. So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.

    “So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.”

    Not a single human being in history ever has, let alone an entire civilization. Hard to put much stock into your “New Jerusalem” comment when you don’t recognize the backbone tenet of Christianity. All are flawed and need redemption.

  113. @Art Deco
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of “persecution”. I

    I have a dear cousin who was taken apart routinely in elementary and junior high school. From a distance, I'd say he still has some scar tissue left over from the experience, and he's 37 years old. He has a beautiful fiancee, a daughter who loves him, a sister who loves him, a mother who loves him, a job that pays the bills, a post-baccalaureate degree, a history as a college teacher, and a residue of friends from each place he's lived and worked over 20-odd years. Life is good, but some part of him is still the kid afraid to go to school each day.

    His life at age 12 was 10x worse than being blackballed by some country club or having a real-estate agent steer you away from certain suburban villages. If he referred to himself as a 'persecuted' individual, that would get some eyerolls. His was an everyday reality for a certain subset of the youth population, and there's mostly nothing to be done about it. The country clubs and the real estate steering is 50 years past.

    Discrimination against individuals for random reasons is completely different than systematic race or religious prejudice – the former is not even illegal, while the latter is.

    • Replies: @Peterike
    “Discrimination against individuals for random reasons is completely different than systematic race or religious prejudice – the former is not even illegal, while the latter is.”

    Oh yeah? Try not renting an apartment to a qualified black or gay for some “random reason.” Let us know how it goes.
    , @Art Deco
    It's 'illegal' because you can write a prohibition into a piece of statutory legislation, something difficult to do with problems that have no name. It's not illegal consequent to the degree of misery it causes. Of course, having lawyers second-guessing your hiring and leasing decisions causes a certain amount irritation and disgust as well, just not the sort we're supposed to take into account.

    About 35 years ago, I saw a piece of public opinion research on the black population. Among the questions: 'have you ever been insulted because of your race' and 'have you ever been discriminated against'. The 'yes' answer, among a sample for whom the median year of birth would have been around 1943, was 59% to the former question and 40% to the latter. The black population actually has been persecuted within living memory, a persecution that was incorporated into public policy. Yet, discrete acts contra specific individuals were, even among that population, not daily fare.

    Now, in the town I grew up in ca. 1955, being Jewish counted against you in real estate transactions, established law firms wouldn't hire you, certain clubs would blackball you if you applied, and some people wouldn't have you as a guest in their homes. All that's disagreeable. At the same time, those were what in our time we call 'First World Problems', and they arose not from any government policy but from a the opinions of a broad mass of people over who they'd prefer to have as a neighbor / business partner / companion. Andrew Greeley discovered a more benign manifestation of this a decade later among gentiles when his survey research revealed that for a comfortable majority of people, their three closest friends were Catholic or they were protestant. A jumble was atypical.

  114. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Somewhat OT - The Irishman stinks. DeNiro is terribly miscast as a hulking Irish goon, and I say that as a hulking Irish goon.

    The scene where he murders German POW's was gratuitous and pornographic. We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.

    Al Pacino reprises the role he played in Scent of a Women, which is pretty much the same role he has played in every movie since then.

    MS's usual brilliant attention to period detail, history, and long continuous shots can't save an otherwise dull and meandering Goodfellas/Sopranos casting reunion.

    Thank you! for commenting on the continual disparagement of the German people by Hollywood. Sick of it. Every villain is a blond Aryan type named Karl. Every dope is named Fred or Frank. Those are the names of my brothers and father. Disgusting. I will never go to the movies again as long as I live.

  115. @AnotherDad
    I'm between you and Steve.

    I thought the first show, with her getting drunk and just stumbling into riffing on her husband's marital betrayal on stage was pretty good, pretty funny. But then ... it heads downhill. There was maybe one more routine that was actually funny, funny.

    The period stuff is good. (I remember the garment factory scene you're mentioning.) But ... to what end? The characters aren't sympathetic. The husband is mewling, pathetic--but hey, she picked him! She isn't sympathetic either. Her mom's a loon. Maybe the gal's dad. He's ok.

    But the main issue: there's really only one joke--50s housewife can talk dirty. And after awhile ... who cares? Maybe this one should have just been a movie? It wears out it's welcome. Not just Y-chromosomed me. AnotherMom lost interest.

    Turns out women aren't funny?

    But the main issue: there’s really only one joke–50s housewife can talk dirty. And after awhile … who cares?

    My wife likes this show; I tolerate it but I find Mrs. Maisel irritating with her complete self absorption and incessant rapid-fire yammering “offstage”.

    The mopey husband (ex?) is completely unsympathetic and him being with this striking woman puts a real strain on believability.

    The worst character of all is the short stocky butch bridge-troll manager/sidekick. I pointed out to my wife that this character has no funny lines at all – she just says “f***” every third word. After a couple more episodes my lovely wife turned to me and “you’re right!” Now she can’t unsee it.

    Tony Shaloub, the guy playing the father, is the only person in this show who is genuinely funny.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    Thanks Mr. Whelk. That's a better, sharper summation of my reaction to the show's issues than what i wrote myself!
  116. @Dave Pinsen
    Have Jews, blacks, or Irish been persecuted or socially ostracized in America within the last half century? Anthony Jeselnik is one of the funniest stand-up comics today and he doesn't belong to any of those groups.

    Anthony Jeselnik is one of the funniest stand-up comics today

    Yet he isn’t famous. It is generally accepted that he was the brains behind Amy Schumer’s rise to fame. Once she got going she dumped him, then the general public figured out that she wasn’t all that funny. Then she put on weight and we didn’t even want to look at her anymore.

    • Replies: @Bumpkin

    Yet he isn’t famous.
     
    Is she? I guess she's B-list and he's C-list, both would be known to certain crowds.

    It is generally accepted that he was the brains behind Amy Schumer’s rise to fame.
     
    Well, him and every other comic, as she's a notorious plagiarizer:

    https://youtu.be/4eDxjxVl8S0

    Once she got going she dumped him, then the general public figured out that she wasn’t all that funny.
     
    A rumor I saw online is that he's gay and she was his beard. Maybe they just didn't feel the need for that anymore.

    Then she put on weight and we didn’t even want to look at her anymore.
     
    Umm, when was she ever not fat?
  117. @Jack D

    They weren’t welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.
     
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of "persecution". I realize that by European standards of ethnic cleansing (mass starvation, pogroms, genocide, etc.) the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. Compare to the 7th circle of Hell or the Black Hole of Calcutta, the Lower East Side in the 19th century was a great place. And rarely has any immigrant group been welcomed with open arms - the Indians didn't exactly bring the welcome wagon around for the white settlers.

    But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren't actually "persecuted". America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem, where ancient forms of prejudice no longer held sway. So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.

    America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem

    According to? These “ideals” you refer to amount to “we for some reason convinced ourselves to expect A, and instead found B. Naturally this is the fault of the goyim. The country they built and that we invited ourselves to falls short of my definition of perfection”.

    “America” was a collection of primarily British colonies that got together and made a country. At no point did anyone say “hey lets be the New Jerusalem and make sure that we bend over backwards, inconvenience ourselves, remove our religion from the public sphere, etc in case 100+ years from now a bunch of Jews show up and decide they weren’t sufficiently welcomed”.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights - they all didn't mean what they said? Just words on paper?
    , @SFG
    The 'ideals' stuff is later liberal justification after the fact.

    Still, the colonists probably could not have expanded all the way across the North American plain and held that much territory without immigration. You just don't have the manpower from natural increase alone, and eventually Europe would have recovered from the Napoleonic wars and tried to take some of it.

    Anyway, the USA assimilated people after 1920. The problem is that we're no longer trying.
  118. @Jack D

    They weren’t welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.
     
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of "persecution". I realize that by European standards of ethnic cleansing (mass starvation, pogroms, genocide, etc.) the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. Compare to the 7th circle of Hell or the Black Hole of Calcutta, the Lower East Side in the 19th century was a great place. And rarely has any immigrant group been welcomed with open arms - the Indians didn't exactly bring the welcome wagon around for the white settlers.

    But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren't actually "persecuted". America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem, where ancient forms of prejudice no longer held sway. So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.

    New Jerusalem? America was never supposed to be the New Jerusalem. The Massachusetts Bay Colony and Plymouth Colonies have sole claim to that, and Massachusetts Bay much more so than Plymouth. Projecting the desire of English Puritans onto the rest of North American settlement is pure nonsense. The vast majority of American colonists were not Puritans, or New England descendants of Puritans, and certainly did not have a Puritan vision for their own colonial settlements. All that ‘City on a Hill’ stuff, and the like, that continuously pops up is just distorted history used for emotional manipulation, by politicians, historians, pundits, etc with specific present day goals in mind.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    THANK YOU. It seems there has been uptick in talk of the “shining city on a hill” BS since Trump’s election- on social media and from tv pundits. I wonder if some intelligence agencies (here and abroad) decided that this was the best rhetorical route to combat the rising power of alternative media?

    The only other time I’ve seen the BS used much was right after 9/11 and leading up the Iraq war.

    It is (as you said) dishonest emotional manipulation that leads to a series of ideological traps for the unwitting.

    America is a pioneer nation.
  119. @William Badwhite

    America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem
     
    According to? These "ideals" you refer to amount to "we for some reason convinced ourselves to expect A, and instead found B. Naturally this is the fault of the goyim. The country they built and that we invited ourselves to falls short of my definition of perfection".

    "America" was a collection of primarily British colonies that got together and made a country. At no point did anyone say "hey lets be the New Jerusalem and make sure that we bend over backwards, inconvenience ourselves, remove our religion from the public sphere, etc in case 100+ years from now a bunch of Jews show up and decide they weren't sufficiently welcomed".

    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights – they all didn’t mean what they said? Just words on paper?

    • Replies: @XYZ (no Mr.)
    Point out the New Jerusalem aspects of those documents.

    Remember, you already have made stupid melodramatic comments about slavery being America's permanent sin. The Constitution of course allowed slavery -- that doesn't sound too much like a New Jerusalem document to me. Now the Constitution and Bill of Rights are very fine, solid documents, written by men well versed in Western history, and English legal and governmental traditions. They are definitely NOT utopian, or seek to create a New Jerusalem.

    The Declaration of Independence of course talks about one people dissolving their bonds with another -- the declaration overall stresses 'people' quite a lot more than the individual, which many Americans nowadays ignore, and focuses greatly on the King's assaults on what the colonists considered their rights as Englishmen. Almost all readers focus on the beginning of the second paragraph, 'We hold these truths...', as radical, but Americans no longer considered themselves English, so the rights of Englishmen Americans desired became universal rights for all men, in their respective communities, endowed by their Creator. Quite an excellent move, rhetorically and in reality, but not the creation of a religious theocracy, or desire to, in any way, shape, or form.
    , @William Badwhite

    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights – they all didn’t mean what they said?

     

    One of those is (theoretically) an organizational contract among sovereign entities forming a nation (and that supersedes anything in the Declaration), one is a part of that contract, and the other is what amounts to a Dear John letter. Nowhere in any of them do the words "New Jerusalem" appear. Though the words "naturalization of foreigners" and "merciless Indian Savages" do appear.

    This stuff about "where ancient prejudices no longer hold sway" is emotional baggage and fluff added later, usually by self-interested people (many of whom have "ancient prejudices" as guiding principles). Initially by Lincoln seeking justification for his extra-constitutional actions, later by various waves of immigrants and their descendants seeking justification for demanding they be accommodated and given things (i.e. AnotherDad's minoritarianism).

    If you want to read stuff into Jefferson's Declaration that isn't there, that's of course your right, but don't expect others to find it binding. At the time he wrote it, "America" was a bunch of white people, primarily from the British Isles (and their slaves, whose opinions and wants weren't relevant). It was written to other white people (primarily IN the British Isles). This tendency for Jews, Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, subcontinentals, moslems, whoever, to show up a century or two later and decide it was written with them in mind is bizarre and delusional.
    , @Pericles

    Just words on paper?

     

    Certainly to some.
    , @Ian M.

    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights
     
    Overrated.
  120. I think one reason this show received the attention and praise that it has is that it hits some nostalgic notes for certain people who are disproportionately represented among TV and other cultural critics.

    Lots of Americans are nostalgic for the 1950s and early 60s. For many, it’s the idea of good-paying factory jobs and affordable houses in pleasant, suburban neighborhoods. For others, it’s Greenwich Village and the Upper West Side when they had pre-Death Wish levels of vibrancy.

  121. @Jane Plain
    I suppose in these parts this is a stupid question, but why is Rachel Brosnahan's ethnicity important?

    Are all Jews supposed to have frizzy hair, big noses, and dark olive skin?

    It's a good thing back in the old days the bosses didn't run the Sailer blog's blood quantum tests. Hedy Lamarr, Sylvia Sidney, Shelley Winters and Lauren Bacall would never have been signed to contracts. (That's just the women.) There were also lesser known but interesting actresses such as Piper Laurie and Barbara Barrie who were Jewish.

    I can't speak to the show's wittiness or lack thereof, never having seen it, but Brosnahan looks to me to have sufficiently non-specific looks to be convincingly Ashkenazi Jewish.

    The fact that she goes by her real name, as the vast majority of actors and actresses have in the last 50 years, and it’s Irish, might have some impact.

    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    So what? She's an actress playing a part.
  122. @AnotherDad
    I'm between you and Steve.

    I thought the first show, with her getting drunk and just stumbling into riffing on her husband's marital betrayal on stage was pretty good, pretty funny. But then ... it heads downhill. There was maybe one more routine that was actually funny, funny.

    The period stuff is good. (I remember the garment factory scene you're mentioning.) But ... to what end? The characters aren't sympathetic. The husband is mewling, pathetic--but hey, she picked him! She isn't sympathetic either. Her mom's a loon. Maybe the gal's dad. He's ok.

    But the main issue: there's really only one joke--50s housewife can talk dirty. And after awhile ... who cares? Maybe this one should have just been a movie? It wears out it's welcome. Not just Y-chromosomed me. AnotherMom lost interest.

    Turns out women aren't funny?

    Some are. The point is that it doesn’t get you points with men (as a woman) as it’s an assertion of dominance, so most women don’t bother. A lot fewer women are willing to work 90-hour weeks to become CEO–you waste your fertile years and it scares the guys away, so it’s not an effective strategy. Getting into an elite business school to snag a CEO husband, well, that’s another story.

    I went out with a comedian once. Said being funny never got guys, but women were interested in her.

  123. @William Badwhite

    America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem
     
    According to? These "ideals" you refer to amount to "we for some reason convinced ourselves to expect A, and instead found B. Naturally this is the fault of the goyim. The country they built and that we invited ourselves to falls short of my definition of perfection".

    "America" was a collection of primarily British colonies that got together and made a country. At no point did anyone say "hey lets be the New Jerusalem and make sure that we bend over backwards, inconvenience ourselves, remove our religion from the public sphere, etc in case 100+ years from now a bunch of Jews show up and decide they weren't sufficiently welcomed".

    The ‘ideals’ stuff is later liberal justification after the fact.

    Still, the colonists probably could not have expanded all the way across the North American plain and held that much territory without immigration. You just don’t have the manpower from natural increase alone, and eventually Europe would have recovered from the Napoleonic wars and tried to take some of it.

    Anyway, the USA assimilated people after 1920. The problem is that we’re no longer trying.

    • Replies: @XYZ (no Mr.)
    Disagree. The United States had extremely high average white birthrates -- even in areas with negligible immigration, such as large regions of the South -- throughout the 19th Century. A primarily agricultural society, with the type of American government present in the 19th Century, with plenty of land to the west, would have continued to expand rapidly regardless.

    Would the United States had 76 million people in 1900 without large scale immigration? Very doubtful -- of course. More than 50 or 55 million? Highly probable.
    , @William Badwhite

    Still, the colonists probably could not have expanded all the way across the North American plain and held that much territory without immigration.
     
    Probably true, though if we'd permanently shut the door around 1840 we'd have been fine. The Napoleonic wars wrapped up around 1815 but it would be decades before a continental European power would be able to have posed a threat. The British maybe could have, but we'd just finished fighting a war with them on the very topic.

    As has been pointed out here many times, the US was the world's largest economy by the 1880's. As such the mass immigration from the late 19th century onward perhaps was additive (or not, that's a different debate) but certainly wasn't necessary.

    Nobody to the west (beyond the Pacific) was organized and modern enough to pose a threat, while in the East any European power trying to take some of it would have faced a rising industrial power fighting on their home turf, and largely populated by a different type of white people (British Isles descended and quite a few Germans). Think what half of the country was able to aim at the other half starting in 1861. Now imagine both sides united and dealing with an invader.

    The problem is that we’re no longer trying.
     
    Agreed, double plus.
  124. @Clive Beaconsfield
    Arab Christian Tony Shaloub does the best Jewish humor on the show, notably. He’s by the far the best thing it’s got going for it.

    When I saw ultra-Kissinger/Kudlow/Schumer-ish Shaloub in Monk episodes and then looked him up in Wikipedia I was surprised to find that not only is he Arab Christian but he is also a native of a certain small Midwestern city – which is the home of the greatest professional football club on Earth.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    I was surprised to find that not only is [Shalhoub] Arab Christian
     
    He played a passable Italian on Wings, as well. Between Emmys and Tonys, he has won six of them for acting. I enjoyed him in Vision Quest, a criminally underrated movie.
  125. @Redneck farmer
    All I can say Steve is I agree.

    Same.

    Joan is like Roseanne….funny in that she played up being a female slob.

  126. @adreadline

    Writer pointed out 4 most popular stand ups ever in the US — Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Bob Hope, and Johnny Carson — were WASPs.
     
    Will Rogers was nearly as much of a WASP as George Lopez is.

    IOW a lot more Indian than Elizabeth Warren. Hoover’s VP Charles Curtis was similar.

  127. @bomag

    What a disaster that the ideology she is pushing in that routine — opposing social pressure for girls to marry early — took root.
     
    Agree.

    Also notice that she very much took for granted that one selected a partner for intelligence and occupations based on intelligence. Assortative mating taken as a given then; not so much now with a change in politics.

    Assortative mating based on IQ is MORE of a thing now than in the 50s/60s. College grads, especially with advanced degrees, rarely marry someone without a degree. That happened all the time back then, with both men and women. High IQ men got with pretty/average IQ secretaries. High IQ women from middle class/poorer families generally had zero access to higher education, so they were content to settle down with their town’s mechanics or factory workers. This is what happened with my grandmother: she’s extremely bright even in advanced age and most of her brothers (who are also quite sharp) got college scholarships and two even went on to work for NASA. But she and her sister never left their small hometown and married pretty regular guys.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Dalton Conley is studying whether assortative mating for the genetics of educational attainment has been changing over time using genomes of young and old people. He first tried it in 2013 when Polygenic Scores were new and didn't find evidence to support Herrnstein's theory that assortative mating increased. But he should soon have a new study using Lee et al's much improved 2018 PGS, so we shall see.
  128. @Anne Lid
    Israelis made Egyptian prisoners of war to dig their own graves, then shot them.

    That’s a new one. I remember that the Egyptians surrendered en masse in 1967 and were repatriated eventually, many thousands of them.

  129. @Jack D
    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights - they all didn't mean what they said? Just words on paper?

    Point out the New Jerusalem aspects of those documents.

    Remember, you already have made stupid melodramatic comments about slavery being America’s permanent sin. The Constitution of course allowed slavery — that doesn’t sound too much like a New Jerusalem document to me. Now the Constitution and Bill of Rights are very fine, solid documents, written by men well versed in Western history, and English legal and governmental traditions. They are definitely NOT utopian, or seek to create a New Jerusalem.

    The Declaration of Independence of course talks about one people dissolving their bonds with another — the declaration overall stresses ‘people’ quite a lot more than the individual, which many Americans nowadays ignore, and focuses greatly on the King’s assaults on what the colonists considered their rights as Englishmen. Almost all readers focus on the beginning of the second paragraph, ‘We hold these truths…’, as radical, but Americans no longer considered themselves English, so the rights of Englishmen Americans desired became universal rights for all men, in their respective communities, endowed by their Creator. Quite an excellent move, rhetorically and in reality, but not the creation of a religious theocracy, or desire to, in any way, shape, or form.

  130. @Tono Bungay
    I smell a "trope" here.

    Technically, it is trivia, and does not go on a trope page.
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeNationality

  131. @Jack D
    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights - they all didn't mean what they said? Just words on paper?

    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights – they all didn’t mean what they said?

    One of those is (theoretically) an organizational contract among sovereign entities forming a nation (and that supersedes anything in the Declaration), one is a part of that contract, and the other is what amounts to a Dear John letter. Nowhere in any of them do the words “New Jerusalem” appear. Though the words “naturalization of foreigners” and “merciless Indian Savages” do appear.

    This stuff about “where ancient prejudices no longer hold sway” is emotional baggage and fluff added later, usually by self-interested people (many of whom have “ancient prejudices” as guiding principles). Initially by Lincoln seeking justification for his extra-constitutional actions, later by various waves of immigrants and their descendants seeking justification for demanding they be accommodated and given things (i.e. AnotherDad’s minoritarianism).

    If you want to read stuff into Jefferson’s Declaration that isn’t there, that’s of course your right, but don’t expect others to find it binding. At the time he wrote it, “America” was a bunch of white people, primarily from the British Isles (and their slaves, whose opinions and wants weren’t relevant). It was written to other white people (primarily IN the British Isles). This tendency for Jews, Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, subcontinentals, moslems, whoever, to show up a century or two later and decide it was written with them in mind is bizarre and delusional.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Right, when Gouverneur Morris wrote "We The People" he didn't mean "you people". Jimmy Hoffa and Tony Provenzano got into a fist fight about this 200 year later so it has never been settled.
    , @Hibernian
    As a Hibernian, I take comfort from the fact that one of our boys, Charles Carroll, signed the Declaration.
    , @Johann Ricke

    If you want to read stuff into Jefferson’s Declaration that isn’t there, that’s of course your right, but don’t expect others to find it binding. At the time he wrote it, “America” was a bunch of white people, primarily from the British Isles (and their slaves, whose opinions and wants weren’t relevant). It was written to other white people (primarily IN the British Isles). This tendency for Jews, Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, subcontinentals, moslems, whoever, to show up a century or two later and decide it was written with them in mind is bizarre and delusional.
     
    Irredentist purism is an interesting subject for academic discussion. In real life, upsetting the apple cart may require civil war and oceans of blood, because the citizenry currently includes all these other people, and they're not giving up what they consider to be their right to have their say on the direction of the country unless they are somehow all killed or deported. A country that has issues with a few thousand friendly dead from a war in which foreigners came here and killed 3000 people in the two most important cities in the nation, is not going to be up for a civil war that involves millions of dead, or more.
  132. @XYZ (no Mr.)
    New Jerusalem? America was never supposed to be the New Jerusalem. The Massachusetts Bay Colony and Plymouth Colonies have sole claim to that, and Massachusetts Bay much more so than Plymouth. Projecting the desire of English Puritans onto the rest of North American settlement is pure nonsense. The vast majority of American colonists were not Puritans, or New England descendants of Puritans, and certainly did not have a Puritan vision for their own colonial settlements. All that 'City on a Hill' stuff, and the like, that continuously pops up is just distorted history used for emotional manipulation, by politicians, historians, pundits, etc with specific present day goals in mind.

    THANK YOU. It seems there has been uptick in talk of the “shining city on a hill” BS since Trump’s election- on social media and from tv pundits. I wonder if some intelligence agencies (here and abroad) decided that this was the best rhetorical route to combat the rising power of alternative media?

    The only other time I’ve seen the BS used much was right after 9/11 and leading up the Iraq war.

    It is (as you said) dishonest emotional manipulation that leads to a series of ideological traps for the unwitting.

    America is a pioneer nation.

  133. @SFG
    The 'ideals' stuff is later liberal justification after the fact.

    Still, the colonists probably could not have expanded all the way across the North American plain and held that much territory without immigration. You just don't have the manpower from natural increase alone, and eventually Europe would have recovered from the Napoleonic wars and tried to take some of it.

    Anyway, the USA assimilated people after 1920. The problem is that we're no longer trying.

    Disagree. The United States had extremely high average white birthrates — even in areas with negligible immigration, such as large regions of the South — throughout the 19th Century. A primarily agricultural society, with the type of American government present in the 19th Century, with plenty of land to the west, would have continued to expand rapidly regardless.

    Would the United States had 76 million people in 1900 without large scale immigration? Very doubtful — of course. More than 50 or 55 million? Highly probable.

  134. @AnotherDad
    I'm between you and Steve.

    I thought the first show, with her getting drunk and just stumbling into riffing on her husband's marital betrayal on stage was pretty good, pretty funny. But then ... it heads downhill. There was maybe one more routine that was actually funny, funny.

    The period stuff is good. (I remember the garment factory scene you're mentioning.) But ... to what end? The characters aren't sympathetic. The husband is mewling, pathetic--but hey, she picked him! She isn't sympathetic either. Her mom's a loon. Maybe the gal's dad. He's ok.

    But the main issue: there's really only one joke--50s housewife can talk dirty. And after awhile ... who cares? Maybe this one should have just been a movie? It wears out it's welcome. Not just Y-chromosomed me. AnotherMom lost interest.

    Turns out women aren't funny?

    As quid pro quo (I had just made her watch ‘The Great Escape), my wife made me watch 1st episode of MM. After 15 minutes she was crying Uncle, but oh no, you wanted to watch it.. I threw in the towel after another 5 minutes. We both couldn’t believe how stilted it was, and we both thought the leads fake Noo Yawk accent was beyond cringe.

    People will watch anything to fill the emptiness of their lives. For instance, ‘The Irishman.’ My God, what were they thinking? It opens in a nursing home! And shoulda stayed there. After watching DeNiro do a pretty poor imitation of himself, getting used to the creepy CGI retro-aging, watching them make E. Howard Hunt out to be a weirdo (never mind about the deathbed confession), and watching Pacino chew the scenery ala SNL, we got up to DeNiro being made a Teamsters local boss and I noticed my wife was asleep. Hardly surprising; I was hoping Paulie from Goodfellas would show up and just shoot them all.

    I paused it and couldn’t believe mine eyes when I saw there were 2 HOURS LEFT!

    And people are saying “you need to watch it several times to really pick up all the visual tropes.” I’d rather watch a test pattern for 2 hours. At least it wouldn’t suck.

  135. @Hibernian
    When I saw ultra-Kissinger/Kudlow/Schumer-ish Shaloub in Monk episodes and then looked him up in Wikipedia I was surprised to find that not only is he Arab Christian but he is also a native of a certain small Midwestern city - which is the home of the greatest professional football club on Earth.

    I was surprised to find that not only is [Shalhoub] Arab Christian

    He played a passable Italian on Wings, as well. Between Emmys and Tonys, he has won six of them for acting. I enjoyed him in Vision Quest, a criminally underrated movie.

    • Replies: @Glaivester
    On Monk, his father was played by a Mizrahi Jew (Dan Hedaya).
    , @FPD72
    What role did Tony play in Vision Quest? I’ve seen it a couple of times and don’t remember him.

    I certainly agree that it was an underrated movie. One of my sons wrestled in high school and college and the movie did a great job of capturing the sacrifice and work ethic required by the sport.
    , @Lurker
    Are there any Arab Christians? Isn't Mr. Shaloub a descendant of the Christians of the Byzantine Empire? Because Arabs have invaded west into the homelands of his ancestors does that make him an Arab?

    Vision Quest - when I see that written down I immediately picture an independent video rental store somewhere in the 1980s.

    , @Steve Sailer
    Tony Shalhoub should have been in every Coen Brothers movie. I think he's only been in two.
    , @Brutusale
    I think you mean this one, a pretty funny movie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_Quest
  136. @William Badwhite

    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights – they all didn’t mean what they said?

     

    One of those is (theoretically) an organizational contract among sovereign entities forming a nation (and that supersedes anything in the Declaration), one is a part of that contract, and the other is what amounts to a Dear John letter. Nowhere in any of them do the words "New Jerusalem" appear. Though the words "naturalization of foreigners" and "merciless Indian Savages" do appear.

    This stuff about "where ancient prejudices no longer hold sway" is emotional baggage and fluff added later, usually by self-interested people (many of whom have "ancient prejudices" as guiding principles). Initially by Lincoln seeking justification for his extra-constitutional actions, later by various waves of immigrants and their descendants seeking justification for demanding they be accommodated and given things (i.e. AnotherDad's minoritarianism).

    If you want to read stuff into Jefferson's Declaration that isn't there, that's of course your right, but don't expect others to find it binding. At the time he wrote it, "America" was a bunch of white people, primarily from the British Isles (and their slaves, whose opinions and wants weren't relevant). It was written to other white people (primarily IN the British Isles). This tendency for Jews, Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, subcontinentals, moslems, whoever, to show up a century or two later and decide it was written with them in mind is bizarre and delusional.

    Right, when Gouverneur Morris wrote “We The People” he didn’t mean “you people”. Jimmy Hoffa and Tony Provenzano got into a fist fight about this 200 year later so it has never been settled.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite

    when Gouverneur Morris wrote “We The People” he didn’t mean “you people”.
     
    Exactly.

    As an aside, Morris headed the committee that added the Preamble, but nobody is really sure who wrote those words. Not that it matters. Morris and everyone on the committee was my people, not "you people". By now though, it means both you people and my people.

    If you're interested in some of the background, Forrest McDonald wrote a couple of excellent books on the topic: "Novus Ordo Seclorum: The Intellectual Origins of the Constitution" and "E Pluribus Unum: The Formation of the American Republic". You will see these were very intelligent and pragmatic men dealing with real world, concrete problems and issues. They weren't into empty emotional fluff, though writing in those days included rhetoric which to today's readers seems excessive.

    The "shining light" and "New Jerusalem" emotional nonsense mostly came later and often are selective quotes of words coming from psychos like the Puritans and their descendants.

    , @Mr. Anon

    Right, when Gouverneur Morris wrote “We The People” he didn’t mean “you people”.
     
    No, he almost certainly did not. And we are not foolish enough to think he did.
  137. @SFG
    The 'ideals' stuff is later liberal justification after the fact.

    Still, the colonists probably could not have expanded all the way across the North American plain and held that much territory without immigration. You just don't have the manpower from natural increase alone, and eventually Europe would have recovered from the Napoleonic wars and tried to take some of it.

    Anyway, the USA assimilated people after 1920. The problem is that we're no longer trying.

    Still, the colonists probably could not have expanded all the way across the North American plain and held that much territory without immigration.

    Probably true, though if we’d permanently shut the door around 1840 we’d have been fine. The Napoleonic wars wrapped up around 1815 but it would be decades before a continental European power would be able to have posed a threat. The British maybe could have, but we’d just finished fighting a war with them on the very topic.

    As has been pointed out here many times, the US was the world’s largest economy by the 1880’s. As such the mass immigration from the late 19th century onward perhaps was additive (or not, that’s a different debate) but certainly wasn’t necessary.

    Nobody to the west (beyond the Pacific) was organized and modern enough to pose a threat, while in the East any European power trying to take some of it would have faced a rising industrial power fighting on their home turf, and largely populated by a different type of white people (British Isles descended and quite a few Germans). Think what half of the country was able to aim at the other half starting in 1861. Now imagine both sides united and dealing with an invader.

    The problem is that we’re no longer trying.

    Agreed, double plus.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    "Now imagine both sides united and dealing with an invader."

    Maybe they wouldn't have, if it was the British. At least substantial parts of the British Establishment hoped so. Also there was the possibility that we might have broken into more than two pieces.
  138. I think I am becoming an old man, but I liked it much better when TV shows were actually on TV. I used to love the Emmys, but I don’t recognize the shows anymore. The only broadcast network to have one of its shows win an Emmy was NBC, both for Saturday Night Live, which isn’t a primetime show per se, and definitely isn’t a sitcom.

    The other winners were from HBO (9), Amazon (7), Netflix (4), and FX (2). I wouldn’t even know how to get Amazon Prime Video. Does it come with Amazon Prime, or is it a separate service? Can I watch it on my TV, or would I have to use my laptop?

    And don’t get me started with releasing all of the episodes on the same day. So stupid.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I wouldn’t even know how to get Amazon Prime Video. Does it come with Amazon Prime,

    Yes

    Can I watch it on my TV, or would I have to use my laptop?

    You can watch it on most "Smart" TVs. Also on some latest generation cable boxes. If you have a "dumb" TV you could buy a "Fire Stick" which is maybe $20 when it is on sale or a number of similar devices that turn a dumb TV into a Smart TV.
    , @Johann Ricke

    I wouldn’t even know how to get Amazon Prime Video. Does it come with Amazon Prime, or is it a separate service? Can I watch it on my TV, or would I have to use my laptop?
     
    Get yourself a Roku box. Simplest interface of all the contenders.
  139. @Jack D
    Right, when Gouverneur Morris wrote "We The People" he didn't mean "you people". Jimmy Hoffa and Tony Provenzano got into a fist fight about this 200 year later so it has never been settled.

    when Gouverneur Morris wrote “We The People” he didn’t mean “you people”.

    Exactly.

    As an aside, Morris headed the committee that added the Preamble, but nobody is really sure who wrote those words. Not that it matters. Morris and everyone on the committee was my people, not “you people”. By now though, it means both you people and my people.

    If you’re interested in some of the background, Forrest McDonald wrote a couple of excellent books on the topic: “Novus Ordo Seclorum: The Intellectual Origins of the Constitution” and “E Pluribus Unum: The Formation of the American Republic”. You will see these were very intelligent and pragmatic men dealing with real world, concrete problems and issues. They weren’t into empty emotional fluff, though writing in those days included rhetoric which to today’s readers seems excessive.

    The “shining light” and “New Jerusalem” emotional nonsense mostly came later and often are selective quotes of words coming from psychos like the Puritans and their descendants.

  140. @ScarletNumber
    I think I am becoming an old man, but I liked it much better when TV shows were actually on TV. I used to love the Emmys, but I don't recognize the shows anymore. The only broadcast network to have one of its shows win an Emmy was NBC, both for Saturday Night Live, which isn't a primetime show per se, and definitely isn't a sitcom.

    The other winners were from HBO (9), Amazon (7), Netflix (4), and FX (2). I wouldn't even know how to get Amazon Prime Video. Does it come with Amazon Prime, or is it a separate service? Can I watch it on my TV, or would I have to use my laptop?

    And don't get me started with releasing all of the episodes on the same day. So stupid.

    I wouldn’t even know how to get Amazon Prime Video. Does it come with Amazon Prime,

    Yes

    Can I watch it on my TV, or would I have to use my laptop?

    You can watch it on most “Smart” TVs. Also on some latest generation cable boxes. If you have a “dumb” TV you could buy a “Fire Stick” which is maybe $20 when it is on sale or a number of similar devices that turn a dumb TV into a Smart TV.

  141. @Laurence Whelk

    But the main issue: there’s really only one joke–50s housewife can talk dirty. And after awhile … who cares?
     
    My wife likes this show; I tolerate it but I find Mrs. Maisel irritating with her complete self absorption and incessant rapid-fire yammering “offstage”.

    The mopey husband (ex?) is completely unsympathetic and him being with this striking woman puts a real strain on believability.

    The worst character of all is the short stocky butch bridge-troll manager/sidekick. I pointed out to my wife that this character has no funny lines at all - she just says “f***” every third word. After a couple more episodes my lovely wife turned to me and “you’re right!” Now she can’t unsee it.

    Tony Shaloub, the guy playing the father, is the only person in this show who is genuinely funny.

    Thanks Mr. Whelk. That’s a better, sharper summation of my reaction to the show’s issues than what i wrote myself!

  142. @SFG
    Joan Rivers was a Republican. Raised Irish, she could well have wound up as a Phyllis Schlafly type.

    Phyllis Schlafly figures into s3 ep 7.

  143. @Jack D
    Stand up comedy is very hard to fake - it's like faking being a classical musician (or any musician). Usually comedy shows (e.g. Seinfeld) work the other way - you take someone who is already a comedian and teach them to act enough to be in a sitcom, which is much easier than vice versa.

    I don't think the idea of a show built around a young Joan Rivers type character in NY circa 1960 is a bad one. Brosnahan does it pretty well for an Irish chick. I think it was enough material for around 2 seasons worth. They just seem to have run out of steam in season 3, at least in episode 1.

    Usually comedy shows (e.g. Seinfeld) work the other way – you take someone who is already a comedian and teach them to act enough to be in a sitcom, which is much easier than vice versa.

    That’s true for Jerry, and it only *half* worked because he was the straight man in the series.

    The other three principals are world-class comic actors, not comedians.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "Curb Your Enthusiasm" includes a (fictional) "Seinfeld" reunion in which Larry David insults Jason Alexander, who walks off the set, so Larry steps in to prove he could have played George (i.e., Larry).

    Nope.

  144. @Jack D

    They weren’t welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.
     
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of "persecution". I realize that by European standards of ethnic cleansing (mass starvation, pogroms, genocide, etc.) the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. Compare to the 7th circle of Hell or the Black Hole of Calcutta, the Lower East Side in the 19th century was a great place. And rarely has any immigrant group been welcomed with open arms - the Indians didn't exactly bring the welcome wagon around for the white settlers.

    But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren't actually "persecuted". America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem, where ancient forms of prejudice no longer held sway. So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.

    A lot of immigrants never lived in the Lower East side or anything quite like it except briefly or maybe even not that. Not to say they weren’t poor; they lived in neighborhoods like Chicago’s Bridgeport or Back of the Yards and some housing was substandard, but the concrete jungle was rare in most American cities until high rise public housing projects came along.

  145. No exceptions: everything beautiful must be written over with ugliness, all talent must be smothered in mediocrity. This is Harrison Bergeron equality. I recently rewatched the Fashion Police episode with Kylie Minogue and none of it is dated, weak, or political fanservice. It’s years old, from a dead woman, and it’s roll around on the floor hilarious.

  146. @Jack D
    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights - they all didn't mean what they said? Just words on paper?

    Just words on paper?

    Certainly to some.

  147. The premise of the period TV show The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel appears to be: What if the queen of comedy Joan Rivers had been switched at birth in the hospital with a pretty Irish-American baby

    You mean a pretty Irish-American baby, or a “handsome” one?

  148. I’d rather watch the alternative story: a switched-at-birth Joan Rivers grows up Irish.

    I dunno. John Wayne or James Cagney raised as a Jew(and maybe working as ACLU lawyer) sounds hilarious.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    That's a promising idea.
    , @Jack D
    Like this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rZjmvAULFU
  149. @JimB
    In his book Funny People, Steve Allen claims nearly all America's funniest comedians are Jewish, black, or Irish because they use humor as a defense against persecution and social ostracism.

    A lot of comedians claim they got their start using their comedic talents to avoid getting bullied at school. But recently, thinking back to school, I have begun to suspect that some of them were actually the school bullies themselves.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    One of the best episodes of "30 Rock" has Tina Fey going to her small-town high school reunion. She recalls having been a nerd who was bullied in high school and wants to flaunt it to everyone that she made it big in New York City. She meets with a cool reception upon her arrival and eventually learns that to her classmates, she, with her cutting sarcasm, was the bully.
  150. @Joe Walker
    Steve would kill himself if he had even a drop of Irish blood.

    Steve would kill himself if he had even a drop of Irish blood.

    No, he would go punch Podherotz.

  151. @William Badwhite

    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights – they all didn’t mean what they said?

     

    One of those is (theoretically) an organizational contract among sovereign entities forming a nation (and that supersedes anything in the Declaration), one is a part of that contract, and the other is what amounts to a Dear John letter. Nowhere in any of them do the words "New Jerusalem" appear. Though the words "naturalization of foreigners" and "merciless Indian Savages" do appear.

    This stuff about "where ancient prejudices no longer hold sway" is emotional baggage and fluff added later, usually by self-interested people (many of whom have "ancient prejudices" as guiding principles). Initially by Lincoln seeking justification for his extra-constitutional actions, later by various waves of immigrants and their descendants seeking justification for demanding they be accommodated and given things (i.e. AnotherDad's minoritarianism).

    If you want to read stuff into Jefferson's Declaration that isn't there, that's of course your right, but don't expect others to find it binding. At the time he wrote it, "America" was a bunch of white people, primarily from the British Isles (and their slaves, whose opinions and wants weren't relevant). It was written to other white people (primarily IN the British Isles). This tendency for Jews, Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, subcontinentals, moslems, whoever, to show up a century or two later and decide it was written with them in mind is bizarre and delusional.

    As a Hibernian, I take comfort from the fact that one of our boys, Charles Carroll, signed the Declaration.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Charles Carroll of Carrollton was not one of your boys, he was one of your chieftains.
    , @Philosophaster
    Charles Carroll of Carrollton's mother was Elizabeth Brooke, herself the daughter of Clement Brooke and Jane Sewall - not much of a Celtic flavor on the distaff side. His father, Charles Carroll of Annapolis, was the son of a mother surnamed "Darnall" - again, not much of a Celtic ring. This suggests that Charles Carroll of Carrollton was, at most, 1/4 Irish by descent: hardly a wearer of the green.
  152. @The Wild Geese Howard
    So, these are the best standup bits from Mrs. Maisel, according to Amazon:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qme7INOd7es

    On what planet is being harangued by a harpy funny?

    In the Current Year we’re required to believe its hilarious!

  153. @William Badwhite

    Still, the colonists probably could not have expanded all the way across the North American plain and held that much territory without immigration.
     
    Probably true, though if we'd permanently shut the door around 1840 we'd have been fine. The Napoleonic wars wrapped up around 1815 but it would be decades before a continental European power would be able to have posed a threat. The British maybe could have, but we'd just finished fighting a war with them on the very topic.

    As has been pointed out here many times, the US was the world's largest economy by the 1880's. As such the mass immigration from the late 19th century onward perhaps was additive (or not, that's a different debate) but certainly wasn't necessary.

    Nobody to the west (beyond the Pacific) was organized and modern enough to pose a threat, while in the East any European power trying to take some of it would have faced a rising industrial power fighting on their home turf, and largely populated by a different type of white people (British Isles descended and quite a few Germans). Think what half of the country was able to aim at the other half starting in 1861. Now imagine both sides united and dealing with an invader.

    The problem is that we’re no longer trying.
     
    Agreed, double plus.

    “Now imagine both sides united and dealing with an invader.”

    Maybe they wouldn’t have, if it was the British. At least substantial parts of the British Establishment hoped so. Also there was the possibility that we might have broken into more than two pieces.

  154. @ScarletNumber

    Anthony Jeselnik is one of the funniest stand-up comics today
     
    Yet he isn't famous. It is generally accepted that he was the brains behind Amy Schumer's rise to fame. Once she got going she dumped him, then the general public figured out that she wasn't all that funny. Then she put on weight and we didn't even want to look at her anymore.

    Yet he isn’t famous.

    Is she? I guess she’s B-list and he’s C-list, both would be known to certain crowds.

    It is generally accepted that he was the brains behind Amy Schumer’s rise to fame.

    Well, him and every other comic, as she’s a notorious plagiarizer:

    Once she got going she dumped him, then the general public figured out that she wasn’t all that funny.

    A rumor I saw online is that he’s gay and she was his beard. Maybe they just didn’t feel the need for that anymore.

    Then she put on weight and we didn’t even want to look at her anymore.

    Umm, when was she ever not fat?

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Is [Amy famous]? I guess she’s B-list. When was she ever not fat?
     
    You seem to have a personal dislike of her, which I understand. I am talking about fame. She has hosted Saturday Night Live twice and starred in Trainwreck, a $141 million dollar movie.

    About 5 years ago she was at the height of her fame. She wasn't fat then, nor was she leading up to that point. She has now given up, but don't pretend the past didn't happen.
  155. @Intelligent Dasein
    Anybody with any taste or any sense of his own mortality and limited time on this Earth has long since sent a cinder block flying through his TV screen and ran away in the other direction, screaming. If you guys are still watching this dreck, you're part of the problem.

    I’ve been following this thread with increasingly surprise and bewilderment.
    Jack D an expert on sit-coms? Who’d have thought it.

  156. @Jane Plain
    "Stand up comedy is very hard to fake – it’s like faking being a classical musician (or any musician)."

    It's impossible to fake being a classical musician. I mean, onstage.

    Impersonating Yo Yo Ma offstage? That might be the premise of a comedy.

    "Brosnahan does it pretty well for an Irish chick."

    Cringe. You'll never fit in here, Jack.

    Fit in? Jack D defines what it is to be an Unz commenter.

    • Replies: @Lot
    I can’t speak for Jack, but I think he’d agree many of us are isteve.blogspot.com commenters along for the Unz Review ride.

    Steve read NR in his early teens and had a letter published. And I read Steve *in* NR in my early teens! At some point in my late teens I wrote SS an email asking to join his HBD e-mail list, which he referenced in his early quasi-blog sidebar on isteve.com. He politely declined.

    :(

    The only article I actually remember he wrote in NR was “the why lesbians aren’t gay.” At that point I don’t think I had ever encountered an obvious gay or lesbian, and thought the main gay tell was dressing up in women’s clothing, not the gay voice and mannerisms. So it was an informative article.
    , @SFG
    There's a Semitic and an anti-Semitic brigade, and they get their dukes out whenever Jews come up. Steve must know this by now and puts these things up to get traffic on his blog. I actually don't blame him--gotta drive traffic somehow. From what I've heard, he also moderates out a lot of the anti-Semitic comments (i.e., there are even *more* than you see), probably because if his commentariat turned into Stormfront it'd be a lot less interesting. Heartiste became a lot less enlightening after he went full Nazi.
  157. @Jack D
    Right, when Gouverneur Morris wrote "We The People" he didn't mean "you people". Jimmy Hoffa and Tony Provenzano got into a fist fight about this 200 year later so it has never been settled.

    Right, when Gouverneur Morris wrote “We The People” he didn’t mean “you people”.

    No, he almost certainly did not. And we are not foolish enough to think he did.

  158. I saw the first episode, and all I can see is the continuous pushing of progressive fantasy-land tropes.

    Perhaps I’ve become hypersensitive, and look for things that aren’t really there. You be the judge:

    * MMM is smarter, funnier, and more rational than her husband.
    * Her husband’s success is mostly from her work. While he continuously drops the ball on getting a good slot, she rescues things by working the bartender with flirting and food. She also takes diligent notes about his comedy. That is, he gets the credit, but it’s from her work. I mean, he can’t even write his own material.
    * MMM works much harder in their marriage. While he sleeps, she works at her beauty, waking before him to do her hair, tracking her measurements, etc. She does this, undoubtedly, because of the patriarchy, etc.
    * When he leaves her, she is blamed, without compassion, by her father. More patriarchy.
    * She’s rude and entitled to customers in the butcher shop, but it’s considered by the show to be quirky and endearing.
    * She’s vulgar and lewd during her stand-up bit. But again, that’s the pinnacle of the modern woman of the left. What’s more empowering then flashing your goodies on stage while alone and drunk?
    * The only one who knows true comedy talent is the lesbian (?) woman at the bar.

    Before the great wokening, a show like this wouldn’t have bothered me. After all, most of the above are true at times in the real world. But it’s all that’s pushed, and anymore, it’s most of what I see.

  159. @The Wild Geese Howard
    So, these are the best standup bits from Mrs. Maisel, according to Amazon:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qme7INOd7es

    On what planet is being harangued by a harpy funny?

    It’s funny. Don’t ask questions. What are you, an anti-semite?

  160. @Steve Sailer
    The show has many good aspects, but it's just very weird in that it's a show putatively about a stand up comedian made by people whose talents and interests don't have anything to do with stand up comedy. They like and are good at set decorating, musicals, costume design, and all sorts of stuff, none of which is stand-up comedy.

    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer? There is an interesting show to be made about a young woman battling the gay mafia that dominates those professions, but the show's creators didn't have the guts to go there.

    Sailer’s Butterknife in effect where he can’t figure out how an unfunny woman is presented as a Jewish cultural tour de force in 1960s Aneeica and given a massive push.

    Hmm yes what could the answer be?

  161. Ann Coulter: New and old data both show only whites, not Asians, are discriminated against in college admissions:

    http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2019-12-04.html

  162. @Hibernian
    As a Hibernian, I take comfort from the fact that one of our boys, Charles Carroll, signed the Declaration.

    Charles Carroll of Carrollton was not one of your boys, he was one of your chieftains.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Whatever. I understand full well he was not an ordinary man.
  163. @Anonymous

    Someone determined could circumvent but what do you get out of it?
     
    The sheer joy of doing it. Same reason people do all sorts of illegal and destructive stuff. What does a punk get out of throwing stuff off a bridge onto oncoming cars, or those guys in a small town in which I lived who were caught jacking off in the breakfast biscuit gravy at the Hardee's?

    In this case the perp could figure no one would find out. Females usually don't do stuff like this, the key word is "usually". No one dies, a few privileged kids get prole upbringings and vice versa maybe. If it did happen, the nurse was probably bored out of her gourd and wanted to do something to make things more interesting for her.

    But most switchings were probably accidental. People make mistakes. Footprints-I found my father's old hospital birth certificate after he died and the footprints were illegible, I doubt they were legible even then. And how many people footprint their kids and compare them? Most hospital birth certs (which are not the same as state certificates of live birth, which do not have footprints) got put in those Baby Books and got lost in moves and so forth.

    Switchings weren't common, but they weren't unheard of either and in all likelihood most of them were never detected. A lot of them would result in the switchee go through life and die with no one ever the wiser. In those pre-DNA days how could you prove it except on the off chance the blood groups were an impossible result?

    those guys in a small town in which I lived who were caught jacking off in the breakfast biscuit gravy at the Hardee’s?

    Were they caught before or after people ate the gravy?

  164. @Hibernian
    The fact that she goes by her real name, as the vast majority of actors and actresses have in the last 50 years, and it's Irish, might have some impact.

    So what? She’s an actress playing a part.

  165. @Anonymous
    At times, Al Pacino seemed like he didn't know what movie he was in. There was one scene, where I am fairly sure he forgot his lines.

    Also, throughout the movie, the actors' statures and heights seemed inconsistent. And sure enough....

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/12/21/05/477DFDB800000578-0-image-a-44_1513835735580.jpg

    In person De Niro is about 5’6″, maybe 5’7″.

  166. Anonymous[188] • Disclaimer says:

    OT, but we have a winner:

    https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/704991


    Making Black Women Scientists under White Empiricism: The Racialization of Epistemology in Physics

    Chanda Prescod-Weinstein

    Department of Physics and Astronomy and Department of Women’s and Gender Studies [WUT?], University of New Hampshire, Durham

    In this article I take on the question of how the exclusion of Black American women from physics impacts physics epistemologies, and I highlight the dynamic relationship between this exclusion and the struggle for women to reconcile “Black woman” with “physicist.” I describe the phenomenon where white epistemic claims about science—which are not rooted in empirical evidence—receive more credence and attention than Black women’s epistemic claims about their own lives. To develop this idea, I apply an intersectional analysis to Joseph Martin’s concept of prestige asymmetry in physics, developing the concept of white empiricism to discuss the impact that Black women’s exclusion has had on physics epistemology. By considering the essentialization of racism and sexism alongside the social construction of ascribed identities, I assess the way Black women physicists self-construct as scientists and the subsequent impact of epistemic outcomes on the science itself.

    Who is allowed to be an observer in physics, and who is fundamentally denied the possibility? In this article, I propose that race and ethnicity impact epistemic outcomes in physics, despite the universality of the laws that undergird physics, and I introduce the concept of white empiricism to provide one explanation for why. White empiricism is the phenomenon through which only white people (particularly white men) are read has having a fundamental capacity for objectivity and Black people (particularly Black women) are produced as an ontological other. This phenomenon is stabilized through the production and retention of what Joseph Martin calls prestige asymmetry, which explains how social resources in physics are distributed based on prestige. In American society, Black women are on the losing end of an ontic prestige asymmetry whereby different scientists “garner unequal public approbation” in their everyday lives due to ascribed identities such as gender and race (Martin 2017, 475). White empiricism is one of the mechanisms by which this asymmetry follows Black women physicists into their professional lives. Because white empiricism contravenes core tenets of modern physics (e.g., covariance and relativity), it negatively impacts scientific outcomes and harms the people who are othered.

    Full text available at link.

    This may have been produced by an SJW AI, not sure.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.
  167. @Old Palo Altan
    Fit in? Jack D defines what it is to be an Unz commenter.

    I can’t speak for Jack, but I think he’d agree many of us are isteve.blogspot.com commenters along for the Unz Review ride.

    Steve read NR in his early teens and had a letter published. And I read Steve *in* NR in my early teens! At some point in my late teens I wrote SS an email asking to join his HBD e-mail list, which he referenced in his early quasi-blog sidebar on isteve.com. He politely declined.

    🙁

    The only article I actually remember he wrote in NR was “the why lesbians aren’t gay.” At that point I don’t think I had ever encountered an obvious gay or lesbian, and thought the main gay tell was dressing up in women’s clothing, not the gay voice and mannerisms. So it was an informative article.

  168. Anon[710] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    Like a lot of funny men (and women, not that there are many truly funny women) he was a miserable human being in real life. He was the kind of person who would cut you off forever if he perceived some insult, even if you had been a close friend for 20 years. Joan Rivers crossed some line with him and that was it.

    If the only reference you have to go by is the attorney he fired for stealing from him, you probably don’t have a lot to go on. Johnny ended their relationship abruptly, but he could have turned it into front page news. He let the attorney off the hook, to carry on without him, instead of ruining him forever. I’d say that was pretty nice of him. Not the act of a miserable person. Miserable people like to spread it around.

    According to Johnny, his mother was quite a piece of work. Probably made him sensitive to shitheads within his ranks. As far as the drinking, about everyone was drinking in the television industry at that time. People didn’t care if you were an alcoholic. You could show up to work drunk every day, if you wanted. All they cared about was if you were a functional alcoholic. If you could remember your lines, hit your cues, show up on time, while drunk, it was all good enough.

    And finally, I know you have no way of knowing this, and never will but, if you have over $100 million dollars in the bank, it’s impossible to be what you call miserable. You might get frustrated, annoyed, bored. But miserable? No. That’s a middle-class/poor persons thing. Stay in your own lane, and don’t judge rich people. You just look ridiculous.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Miserable and miserly have the same root and some of the most miserly people I know are rich. In fact when it comes to being miserly, it helps to be rich. Also some of the most miserable people I know are rich. I guess it depends on how you define miserable - if you define it to mean lacking in material comforts, then it's impossible to be rich and miserable, but most Americans who are middle class and above have at least adequate material comforts.

    The reason some rich people are miserable has nothing to do with that. If rich people were never miserable, then why do they kill themselves? The suicide rate of the top decile is lower than the rate of the lowest decile, so FEWER rich people are miserable or at least so miserable that they kill themselves, but it's not zero. If it was truly impossible to be miserable if you are rich, it would be zero or close to it. I think you are either defining misery in an unduly narrow way or underestimating the benefits of wealth in buying happiness.

    As for Carson, Bushkin is not the sole source. The fact that Carson went thru 4 wives and was not close to his sons may give you a clue. His coldness off screen was amply documented and after his show went off the air he became something of a hermit.

    Bushkin BTW was able to clear his name and received a $17 million jury award against Carson.
  169. @Jack D
    Like a lot of funny men (and women, not that there are many truly funny women) he was a miserable human being in real life. He was the kind of person who would cut you off forever if he perceived some insult, even if you had been a close friend for 20 years. Joan Rivers crossed some line with him and that was it.

    Like a lot of funny men (and women, not that there are many truly funny women) he was a miserable human being in real life.

    His mother was a witch, or at least a witch’s teat, so much so that he skipped her funeral. Freud would have been a natural guest had he lived long enough.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    As I stated above, Carson presented classic BPD, and even sociopathic tendencies. He would keep people around demanding extreme loyalty, but at the hint of betrayal he turned vicious and cold and almost never forgave. He kept a hold of his top spot by being ruthless behind the scenes.

    For you older guys, remember how he used to make tons of jokes about his legal representative/lawyer? It was one guy whom Carson picked up when he was fresh out of law school and Carson was already a star. The guy was basically Carson's legal slave, but was the sole person Carson had do all his legal work for. Worked with Carson for more than decade. Then the legal guy did one wrong thing (nothing major) and Carson never forgave him and cut him out. Guy wrote a book about it.

    He was like that even to non-friends. Rodney Dangerfield, before he ever went on Carson, was blackballed----because he rightly complained when Carson stole one of his jokes. He let Johnny know and Carson freaked and blamed Dangerfield (!). Rodney spent years trying to get on, and only when he grovelled at Carson's feet and got him into a club one night did Carson relent and let Dangerfield on---where he shined.

    Carson's persona on TV was decidedly NOT him IRL.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    His mother was a witch, or at least a witch’s teat, so much so that he skipped her funeral.

    It was well known at the time that Carson never went to funerals. I recall him acknowledging that.
  170. @Old Palo Altan
    Charles Carroll of Carrollton was not one of your boys, he was one of your chieftains.

    Whatever. I understand full well he was not an ordinary man.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    My apologies: I did not mean to suggest that you were unaware of the man's personal qualities, but perhaps of his status as a chieftain within the Carroll clan.

    Probably the most aristocratic of the Signers, at least from the European view of what makes a member of that exclusive breed.
  171. @Anonymous

    Someone determined could circumvent but what do you get out of it?
     
    The sheer joy of doing it. Same reason people do all sorts of illegal and destructive stuff. What does a punk get out of throwing stuff off a bridge onto oncoming cars, or those guys in a small town in which I lived who were caught jacking off in the breakfast biscuit gravy at the Hardee's?

    In this case the perp could figure no one would find out. Females usually don't do stuff like this, the key word is "usually". No one dies, a few privileged kids get prole upbringings and vice versa maybe. If it did happen, the nurse was probably bored out of her gourd and wanted to do something to make things more interesting for her.

    But most switchings were probably accidental. People make mistakes. Footprints-I found my father's old hospital birth certificate after he died and the footprints were illegible, I doubt they were legible even then. And how many people footprint their kids and compare them? Most hospital birth certs (which are not the same as state certificates of live birth, which do not have footprints) got put in those Baby Books and got lost in moves and so forth.

    Switchings weren't common, but they weren't unheard of either and in all likelihood most of them were never detected. A lot of them would result in the switchee go through life and die with no one ever the wiser. In those pre-DNA days how could you prove it except on the off chance the blood groups were an impossible result?

    What does a punk get out of throwing stuff off a bridge onto oncoming cars, or those guys in a small town in which I lived who were caught jacking off in the breakfast biscuit gravy at the Hardee’s?

    Come again? A Hardee’s man is good to find, rdrr.

  172. @Jack D

    They weren’t welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.
     
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of "persecution". I realize that by European standards of ethnic cleansing (mass starvation, pogroms, genocide, etc.) the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. Compare to the 7th circle of Hell or the Black Hole of Calcutta, the Lower East Side in the 19th century was a great place. And rarely has any immigrant group been welcomed with open arms - the Indians didn't exactly bring the welcome wagon around for the white settlers.

    But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren't actually "persecuted". America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem, where ancient forms of prejudice no longer held sway. So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.

    ” the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. ”

    Of the two groups cited, the Irish were treated way worse than Jews. They weren’t threatened with family breakup as slaves were, but in the antebellum North, they were expendable cogs in the industrial machine and the Brahmin establishment loathed them. They died in industrial accidents like flies. No one cared. They were dirt. They were “mudsills.” Look it up, counselor.

    Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination to control their (inevitable) upward social mobility, but the attitude towards them was more fear of a potentially fierce competitor rather than contempt.

    Italians were also loathed. The largest mass lynching in US history was of 11 Italian-American men in New Orleans:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_14,_1891_New_Orleans_lynchings

    Nothing comparable ever happened to Jews in the US. Would you say Italians were persecuted?

    “But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren’t actually “persecuted”. ”

    It isn’t hairsplitting, it’s being factual. As I said, the Irish were treated like shit. But they weren’t systematically persecuted. Italians were lynched en masse. But they weren’t persecuted.

    Blacks were.

    The 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments weren’t added because of Irish and Jewish immigrants. They were added to regularize the legal status of African-Americans, some of whose ancestors had been resident in the US for as long as eight generations before 1865.

    Irish and Jewish emigrants didn’t have to drink from Irish and Jewish water fountains. They didn’t have to sit in Irish and Jewish train cars. No one ever prevented Irish or Jews from voting because they were Irish or Jewish – quite the contrary, both groups caught onto the political machinery thing early on and used it to their advantage.

    There is a huge difference between being a greenhorn and being a slave, and then a freedman. Get some education before you spout off, counselor.

  173. @Intelligent Dasein
    Anybody with any taste or any sense of his own mortality and limited time on this Earth has long since sent a cinder block flying through his TV screen and ran away in the other direction, screaming. If you guys are still watching this dreck, you're part of the problem.

    While I am anti-boob-tube in principle, it is hard to deny we’re in a golden age of TV.

    (Sit-coms are the exception, I’d put their gold ages from roughly 62-68 and again 88-97. )

    The best solution to this quandary is found at eztv.io and thepiratebay.org (when it is actually working).

    The slight hassle of torrenting keeps you from veging out in front of the TV, and for me at least keeps me watching only about 2 hours of TV a week compared 10+ when I had cable. It also stops your money from going to people who hate you in Hollywood.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    Asian PB is always up. Slightly hard to find but it is there.
  174. @Anonymous

    Someone determined could circumvent but what do you get out of it?
     
    The sheer joy of doing it. Same reason people do all sorts of illegal and destructive stuff. What does a punk get out of throwing stuff off a bridge onto oncoming cars, or those guys in a small town in which I lived who were caught jacking off in the breakfast biscuit gravy at the Hardee's?

    In this case the perp could figure no one would find out. Females usually don't do stuff like this, the key word is "usually". No one dies, a few privileged kids get prole upbringings and vice versa maybe. If it did happen, the nurse was probably bored out of her gourd and wanted to do something to make things more interesting for her.

    But most switchings were probably accidental. People make mistakes. Footprints-I found my father's old hospital birth certificate after he died and the footprints were illegible, I doubt they were legible even then. And how many people footprint their kids and compare them? Most hospital birth certs (which are not the same as state certificates of live birth, which do not have footprints) got put in those Baby Books and got lost in moves and so forth.

    Switchings weren't common, but they weren't unheard of either and in all likelihood most of them were never detected. A lot of them would result in the switchee go through life and die with no one ever the wiser. In those pre-DNA days how could you prove it except on the off chance the blood groups were an impossible result?
  175. @Clifford Brown
    Finally a television series we can all relate to.

    https://twitter.com/WiP_SHO/status/1189958085525327872

    https://twitter.com/Showtime/status/1201546569268396032

    So many of these amalgam creatures look like Gertrude Stein.

  176. @Anonymous
    Hmm, what became of the doctor? Was he disciplined, did he retire, did he all of a sudden buy a bigger house in the Hamptons or a big airplane or something? Anything to indicate someone might have made it worth his while to, you know, make an oops?

    He, or his practice, or his insurance company, settled a wrongful death lawsuit brought by Joan’s daughter. I’m not sure what other consequences there were, if any.

  177. @Reg Cæsar

    Like a lot of funny men (and women, not that there are many truly funny women) he was a miserable human being in real life.
     
    His mother was a witch, or at least a witch's teat, so much so that he skipped her funeral. Freud would have been a natural guest had he lived long enough.

    As I stated above, Carson presented classic BPD, and even sociopathic tendencies. He would keep people around demanding extreme loyalty, but at the hint of betrayal he turned vicious and cold and almost never forgave. He kept a hold of his top spot by being ruthless behind the scenes.

    For you older guys, remember how he used to make tons of jokes about his legal representative/lawyer? It was one guy whom Carson picked up when he was fresh out of law school and Carson was already a star. The guy was basically Carson’s legal slave, but was the sole person Carson had do all his legal work for. Worked with Carson for more than decade. Then the legal guy did one wrong thing (nothing major) and Carson never forgave him and cut him out. Guy wrote a book about it.

    He was like that even to non-friends. Rodney Dangerfield, before he ever went on Carson, was blackballed—-because he rightly complained when Carson stole one of his jokes. He let Johnny know and Carson freaked and blamed Dangerfield (!). Rodney spent years trying to get on, and only when he grovelled at Carson’s feet and got him into a club one night did Carson relent and let Dangerfield on—where he shined.

    Carson’s persona on TV was decidedly NOT him IRL.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My boss went to dinner with Jackie Mason once around 1990. Mason spent the whole evening complaining about how Ed Sullivan had ruined his career in c. 1964.
  178. @Hibernian
    From the Wikipedia article on Jeselnik:

    In his early twenties, Jeselnik moved to Los Angeles and was working at a Borders when he first tried standup. He found a book by writer and comedian Greg Dean that promoted Dean's Santa Monica comedy workshops.[5][6] In his first attempt at a joke, Jeselnik did an impression of his father being stung by wasps.
     

    He has an evil sense of humor, but he’s extremely funny.

    • Agree: Lot
  179. @Kratoklastes
    Jeselnik is a genuine comedic one-of-a-kind. Billy Ginger-Balls is getting a bit too screechy, although his "It's Never OK To Hit A Woman... Really?" bit had me in pain from laughing.

    Jeselnik's dead-baby bits just edge Burr's best, for me. Also, only Jeselnik gets away with this ->

    My mom, for most of her life, was a Holocaust denier. And it was terrible for the entire family to have to deal with until, finally, a couple years ago, we had an intervention. And we had a rabbi come into the home, had him walk her through the history of the Jewish people, and then he made her watch “Schindler’s List." And after that, my mom did a complete 180. Now she can’t believe it only happened once.
     

    I think my favorite bit of his is the one about kids playing hide and seek.

  180. @Jack D
    Discrimination against individuals for random reasons is completely different than systematic race or religious prejudice - the former is not even illegal, while the latter is.

    “Discrimination against individuals for random reasons is completely different than systematic race or religious prejudice – the former is not even illegal, while the latter is.”

    Oh yeah? Try not renting an apartment to a qualified black or gay for some “random reason.” Let us know how it goes.

  181. @Dave Pinsen
    Have Jews, blacks, or Irish been persecuted or socially ostracized in America within the last half century? Anthony Jeselnik is one of the funniest stand-up comics today and he doesn't belong to any of those groups.

    Steve Allen was a relic of the 50s and 60s, and comedians spend a lifetime dining out on what they learned in middle school so Allen is probably thinking about pre-Civil Rights Era comedians reflecting on life in PS 111 in 1935. Most of the bullying and persecution was due to black kids, but joking about black bullies would be punching down, so they blame their childhood misery on the Italians, Poles, and WASPs.

  182. @anon
    And why are Asians (apart from Russell Peters) so awesomely unfunny? A lot of them, particularly South Asians, try the persecution shtick, but the routines almost invariably come off as flat and fake.

    This story had people rolling in the aisles across England last week, as an extremely unfunny woke south asian comedian rolled out the wrong routine in front of a lunch of drunk city cricketing types: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50644317

    • Replies: @Lurker
    As far as one can tell, it is his only routine.
  183. @Anonymous
    Tough, but fair assessment, although I wouldn't go as far as saying it "stinks".

    You're right about DeNiro being miscast. Pacino is also miscast as the German Hoffa. Pacino reprises his role from Scent of a Woman and The Devil's Advocate. He tends to play some combo of those roles in all his movies.

    I thought the German POW scene was relatively sympathetic to the Germans. I think it was meant to explain partly why or how he became a hardened killer and wasn't just a routine psychopath.

    I don't think Scorsese had total freedom and control with respect to casting and directing the movie. He has to defer a lot to DeNiro and Pacino and basically let them do whatever they want in making the movie.

    The de-aging thing didn't always work either. There's a scene where DeNiro is supposed to be a young father who beats up a shopkeeper, but while his face is de-aged, he still moves and shuffles like an older man while beating up the guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB8Hb2NwEis

    I stopped watching it at the end of that ridiculous scene for exactly the reason you describe: “[DeNiro]still moves and shuffles like an older man while beating up the guy

    From start of the movie up to that scene The Irishman is pure cringe entirely due to the fact it looks like 80 year olds made up to look like 70 year olds playing tough guy 30 year olds.

    Mike’s original assessment that the movie “stinks” is 100% spot-on. This review summed it up for me: https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/11/16/the-irishman-review-an-early-bird-special-for-gangsters/

    The Irishman comes off as this longwinded geriatric fart with a smell that lingers in a room with no windows that you’re trapped in for three and a half hours. All the mob hits in the world aren’t going to get that smell out.

    Have you ever been forced to talk to old people like your grandparents, but they just talk forever without ever giving you a chance to speak? That’s The Irishman except there are more dead cows dangling from meat hooks and being shot in the face involved.

    This is that story your grandfather has told you dozens of times before, so it’s lost all meaning and isn’t nearly as exhilarating as it used to be.

    Do you know what the difference is between being shot in the face and listening to old men talk about nothing for three and a half hours? Being shot in the face isn’t as painful. “I heard you paint houses,” is more like watching paint dry.

  184. @Joe Walker
    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer?

    Because no one would be interested in watching it.

    One of the biggest hits of the 1950s, made into a successful movie was The Best of Everything, which was about girls in the publishing industry.

    It’s forgotten now but it was a huge hit. I think Mad Men referred to it.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    Sounds like How to Marry a Millionaire, a Marilyn Monroe comedy turned into a TV series with the very young Barbara Eden
  185. @The Wild Geese Howard
    So, these are the best standup bits from Mrs. Maisel, according to Amazon:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qme7INOd7es

    On what planet is being harangued by a harpy funny?

    The anger projection is a huge turnoff…for men.

    Maybe not so for women, maybe to women she’s funny.

  186. @Cagey Beast
    ... a pretty Irish-American baby who grows up thinking she’s Jewish and thus sets forth on a stand-up comic career in 1960, but has no sense of humor.


    Is this meant to say one fictional female character, played by an Irish actress, is unfunny or that you have a theory Irish people are genetically unfunny?

    I’d rather watch the alternative story: a switched-at-birth Joan Rivers grows up Irish.

    She'd just have been a chain smoking old gal in a Bruins jacket who worked as a dispatcher for a cab company in Boston.

    No. It’s actually a really good idea. It’s not that the Irish aren’t funny (though that might certainly be true; sometimes I think they are in fact gloomy, when I recall a childhood friend’s ferocious brogue-inflected chain-smoking mother, or the brooding, fatalistic mother in Angela’s Ashes) but that the sensibilities are so different. Irish humor tends to be dark, as far as I can see.

    Imagine Joan Rivers (who I never found funny myself) doing her rapid-fire, glib irreverence bit in a Joyce-ian Irish Catholic family. Or maybe not. Joan getting repeated slaps to the head for making fun of Catholic practices might get old after a while.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    The slapping could never get old. Think: Blues Brothers and The Penguin.
    , @Cagey Beast
    An Irish-American Joan Rivers wouldn't be all that different from the Jewish-American one. As for an Irish-Irish Joan Rivers, she wouldn't have been a comedienne at all, she have become a nun manqué like Samantha Power or Mary Robinson. Either that or she'd have become one of those humourless actresses who went to IRA (sorry, Sinn Fein) events and made long faces and dramatic readings.
    , @Coemgen
    Sure and begorrah, bejaysus, all the saints and Mary! If you do not think "the Irish" are funny then either you're a jackeen who doesn't know any "Irish" or you're a culchie who doesn't know the definition of irony. I'm trying to be serious here though I'm not sure that I'm not yet having a laugh at your expense or, self-deprecatingly, at mine own.
    , @Rapparee

    Irish humor tends to be dark, as far as I can see... Joan getting repeated slaps to the head for making fun of Catholic practices might get old after a while.
     
    Sure, he wouldn't be your father if he didn't beat ya!
    , @Jane Plain
    The Irish are the funniest people I ever met. Deadly wit.
    , @Steve Sailer
    What was Andrew Breitbart's background?
  187. @Jane Plain
    E. Digby Baltzell, who coined the term, might be a good start.

    (Man, they don't make racists and anti-Semites like they used to. Or maybe you're just starting out in the racially obsessed world of the alt-right.)

    Was the guy legit or very PC?

    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    Google is your friend.

    Not to mention, a basic reading primer.
  188. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Somewhat OT - The Irishman stinks. DeNiro is terribly miscast as a hulking Irish goon, and I say that as a hulking Irish goon.

    The scene where he murders German POW's was gratuitous and pornographic. We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.

    Al Pacino reprises the role he played in Scent of a Women, which is pretty much the same role he has played in every movie since then.

    MS's usual brilliant attention to period detail, history, and long continuous shots can't save an otherwise dull and meandering Goodfellas/Sopranos casting reunion.

    >The scene where he murders German POW’s was gratuitous and pornographic.

    If prisoner murder is too uncomfortable for you handle, I would strongly advise never reading a book about the Eastern Front or the Pacific Theater of that same war.

    On a more relevant note, it is a bit of a sign of Hollywood’s intellectual bankruptcy that they can’t think of anything new to make historically-oriented movies about. But you have to admit, the Nazis make really good villains. Not just because they were evil, but because of the style and sheek.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    "If prisoner murder is too uncomfortable for you handle, I would strongly advise never reading a book about the Eastern Front or the Pacific Theater of that same war."

    You completely missed my point. The scene had no business in the movie other than "Don't forget about the holocaust, goy viewer!"
    , @SFG
    'style and *chic*', BTW. And yeah, Hugo Boss designing your uniforms goes a long way.

    One of the big things is they were *trying* to be menacing--skulls everywhere?
    , @Steve Sailer
    The two captured German soldiers briefly in a flashback in "The Irishman" are portrayed as victims.
  189. @ScarletNumber
    I think I am becoming an old man, but I liked it much better when TV shows were actually on TV. I used to love the Emmys, but I don't recognize the shows anymore. The only broadcast network to have one of its shows win an Emmy was NBC, both for Saturday Night Live, which isn't a primetime show per se, and definitely isn't a sitcom.

    The other winners were from HBO (9), Amazon (7), Netflix (4), and FX (2). I wouldn't even know how to get Amazon Prime Video. Does it come with Amazon Prime, or is it a separate service? Can I watch it on my TV, or would I have to use my laptop?

    And don't get me started with releasing all of the episodes on the same day. So stupid.

    I wouldn’t even know how to get Amazon Prime Video. Does it come with Amazon Prime, or is it a separate service? Can I watch it on my TV, or would I have to use my laptop?

    Get yourself a Roku box. Simplest interface of all the contenders.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Roku is pretty decent.
  190. @Jack D
    The previous seasons were slightly funnier. My wife was a big fan and last night she literally fell asleep during the season 3 opener.

    Previous seasons were worthwhile for the big budget sets. There was a scene set in a NY garment factory that was faithful to the last detail and it wasn't even key to the plot. I hadn't seen anything like it for 40 years. Mrs Maisels dad was a Columbia math professor and they lived in an apartment that would be the envy of a hedge fund guy.

    In any period show or movie, it’s really all about the clothes, hats, hairstyles and makeup. Plus cars, if they’ve been invented yet

  191. @Altai
    OT: Has Steve seen this?

    https://twitter.com/LokiJulianus/status/1203478390499659777

    Adam Schiff's son wearing a Mossad t-shirt! (And now I have to wonder if it's official merchandise) In a posed photograph that Adam Schiff chose to post to his congressional Facebook and Instagram accounts!

    The top Instagram comment is amazing:


    I particularly like your sons Mossad t-shirt, Adam. Happy Father's Day to you and your Dad. You are a beacon of light to me and millions of other Americans who want and need a champion in Washington, D.C. to fight a form of demagoguery and authoritarianism unprecedented in our history. Thank you for everything you do and have done.
     
    We're reaching self-awareness levels that shouldn't be possible.

    http://archive.is/ejc1u

    “Sometimes the answer is staring you in the face”

  192. @Hibernian
    Whatever. I understand full well he was not an ordinary man.

    My apologies: I did not mean to suggest that you were unaware of the man’s personal qualities, but perhaps of his status as a chieftain within the Carroll clan.

    Probably the most aristocratic of the Signers, at least from the European view of what makes a member of that exclusive breed.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    I knew the name was an Anglicized Celtic one; wasn't aware of the family's status in Ireland. I was in a general way aware that emigration to Maryland for at least some was an alternative to being reduced to the status of the landless peasantry in Ireland. Other alternatives were conversion to Protestantism and service in various countries, mostly Catholic, as a mercenary soldier. (The Flight of the Earls)
  193. @ScarletNumber

    I was surprised to find that not only is [Shalhoub] Arab Christian
     
    He played a passable Italian on Wings, as well. Between Emmys and Tonys, he has won six of them for acting. I enjoyed him in Vision Quest, a criminally underrated movie.

    On Monk, his father was played by a Mizrahi Jew (Dan Hedaya).

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    And his brother was played by an Italian, John Tuturro, who played a Jew in Quiz Show.
  194. @Kronos
    Are there any other good books detailing the decline of the WASPs?

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PFVDAS2aL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Both look pretty good...
  195. @William Badwhite

    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights – they all didn’t mean what they said?

     

    One of those is (theoretically) an organizational contract among sovereign entities forming a nation (and that supersedes anything in the Declaration), one is a part of that contract, and the other is what amounts to a Dear John letter. Nowhere in any of them do the words "New Jerusalem" appear. Though the words "naturalization of foreigners" and "merciless Indian Savages" do appear.

    This stuff about "where ancient prejudices no longer hold sway" is emotional baggage and fluff added later, usually by self-interested people (many of whom have "ancient prejudices" as guiding principles). Initially by Lincoln seeking justification for his extra-constitutional actions, later by various waves of immigrants and their descendants seeking justification for demanding they be accommodated and given things (i.e. AnotherDad's minoritarianism).

    If you want to read stuff into Jefferson's Declaration that isn't there, that's of course your right, but don't expect others to find it binding. At the time he wrote it, "America" was a bunch of white people, primarily from the British Isles (and their slaves, whose opinions and wants weren't relevant). It was written to other white people (primarily IN the British Isles). This tendency for Jews, Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, subcontinentals, moslems, whoever, to show up a century or two later and decide it was written with them in mind is bizarre and delusional.

    If you want to read stuff into Jefferson’s Declaration that isn’t there, that’s of course your right, but don’t expect others to find it binding. At the time he wrote it, “America” was a bunch of white people, primarily from the British Isles (and their slaves, whose opinions and wants weren’t relevant). It was written to other white people (primarily IN the British Isles). This tendency for Jews, Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, subcontinentals, moslems, whoever, to show up a century or two later and decide it was written with them in mind is bizarre and delusional.

    Irredentist purism is an interesting subject for academic discussion. In real life, upsetting the apple cart may require civil war and oceans of blood, because the citizenry currently includes all these other people, and they’re not giving up what they consider to be their right to have their say on the direction of the country unless they are somehow all killed or deported. A country that has issues with a few thousand friendly dead from a war in which foreigners came here and killed 3000 people in the two most important cities in the nation, is not going to be up for a civil war that involves millions of dead, or more.

    • Agree: Hibernian
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yes, but that was true in 1776, and that revolution succeeded. Not everyone has to support a revolution. You need for a few percent to be willing to fight and a somewhat larger base to quietly support them and a substantial proportion of the population to not really care that much either way but just fear the revolutionaries as much as the state. Then by denying the state of the credible monopoly of violence, you make things dangerous enough for ardent supporters to start fleeing. People start keeping their mouths shut and not seeing some things, and the organs of the State start taking casualties. It gets expensive and brutal.

    Still, the generals never surrender. But at some point, the accountants do. Shortly thereafter, a treaty is signed, the revolutionaries have a mopping up, and then a serious party.

    We are not there yet. There is a lot more ruin in this nation, and the beer and sportsball probably has another generation to go. I’ll be ashes by then.
    , @William Badwhite
    Be quiet. Nobody said anything about a civil war. I was correcting Jack on his "shining light on New Jerusalem, America was founded for the Jews" nonsense.

    they’re not giving up what they consider to be their right to have their say on the direction of the country unless they are somehow all killed or deported.
     
    I assume you are not referring to the people that actually have that right, but to the people that came later.

    Stick to the agree/disagree button. And get an American name if you're going to comment on American issues.

    Agree: William "Billy" Badwhite

    Disagree: Johann "John" Ricke
  196. @alt right moderate
    In fairness, if a woman actress doesn't come across as funny in a comedy show, its usually the fault of the scriptwriter, rather than the actress. There is no shortage of actresses who can act funny (put on humorous foreign accents etc) but there is a shortage of women who can write funny material.

    On UK TV, there's been a number of female actresses who have been given their own TV programs on the basis of being funny on sketch shows written by males. In almost every case, the shows have been badly let down by poor script writing and were cut after one or two series. Tracy Ulman is about the only UK female comedienne/actress who can actually write funny TV material.

    Fans of Victoria Wood (RIP) and the terrific Jennifer Saunders (“Absolutely Fabulous”), for example, might dispute that their work is second rate.

  197. @Dennis Dale
    No. It's actually a really good idea. It's not that the Irish aren't funny (though that might certainly be true; sometimes I think they are in fact gloomy, when I recall a childhood friend's ferocious brogue-inflected chain-smoking mother, or the brooding, fatalistic mother in Angela's Ashes) but that the sensibilities are so different. Irish humor tends to be dark, as far as I can see.

    Imagine Joan Rivers (who I never found funny myself) doing her rapid-fire, glib irreverence bit in a Joyce-ian Irish Catholic family. Or maybe not. Joan getting repeated slaps to the head for making fun of Catholic practices might get old after a while.

    The slapping could never get old. Think: Blues Brothers and The Penguin.

    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    Only funny joke in that mess
  198. @Old Palo Altan
    Fit in? Jack D defines what it is to be an Unz commenter.

    There’s a Semitic and an anti-Semitic brigade, and they get their dukes out whenever Jews come up. Steve must know this by now and puts these things up to get traffic on his blog. I actually don’t blame him–gotta drive traffic somehow. From what I’ve heard, he also moderates out a lot of the anti-Semitic comments (i.e., there are even *more* than you see), probably because if his commentariat turned into Stormfront it’d be a lot less interesting. Heartiste became a lot less enlightening after he went full Nazi.

    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    "There’s a Semitic and an anti-Semitic brigade, and they get their dukes out whenever Jews come up. "

    Jews always come up. He could be talking about the Andaman Islands, and someone would bring up Jews.
  199. @nebulafox
    >The scene where he murders German POW’s was gratuitous and pornographic.

    If prisoner murder is too uncomfortable for you handle, I would strongly advise never reading a book about the Eastern Front or the Pacific Theater of that same war.

    On a more relevant note, it is a bit of a sign of Hollywood's intellectual bankruptcy that they can't think of anything new to make historically-oriented movies about. But you have to admit, the Nazis make really good villains. Not just because they were evil, but because of the style and sheek.

    “If prisoner murder is too uncomfortable for you handle, I would strongly advise never reading a book about the Eastern Front or the Pacific Theater of that same war.”

    You completely missed my point. The scene had no business in the movie other than “Don’t forget about the holocaust, goy viewer!”

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Huh?
    , @Jim Don Bob
    I agree. I liked The Irishman even with all the caveats, but I found the scene where Sheerhan murdered German prisoners after forcing them to dig their graves completely gratuitous.
  200. @nebulafox
    >The scene where he murders German POW’s was gratuitous and pornographic.

    If prisoner murder is too uncomfortable for you handle, I would strongly advise never reading a book about the Eastern Front or the Pacific Theater of that same war.

    On a more relevant note, it is a bit of a sign of Hollywood's intellectual bankruptcy that they can't think of anything new to make historically-oriented movies about. But you have to admit, the Nazis make really good villains. Not just because they were evil, but because of the style and sheek.

    ‘style and *chic*’, BTW. And yeah, Hugo Boss designing your uniforms goes a long way.

    One of the big things is they were *trying* to be menacing–skulls everywhere?

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    I thought that Hugo Bass had made (not designed) those spiffy uniforms?
  201. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike
    Somewhat OT - The Irishman stinks. DeNiro is terribly miscast as a hulking Irish goon, and I say that as a hulking Irish goon.

    The scene where he murders German POW's was gratuitous and pornographic. We get it, Hollywood, Germans are the worst humans ever.

    Al Pacino reprises the role he played in Scent of a Women, which is pretty much the same role he has played in every movie since then.

    MS's usual brilliant attention to period detail, history, and long continuous shots can't save an otherwise dull and meandering Goodfellas/Sopranos casting reunion.

    The Irishman stinks.

    I haven’t seen it but I hope it’s not like GANGS OF NY and AVIATOR, where Scoresese was trying to make someone else’s movie. GANGS is like Griffith on steroids & sound while AVIATOR was his stab at Wellesianism. Scorsese developed a style of his own that is at once furious and fastidious. No need for him to play Terry Gilliam whose idea of filmmaking is to throw his idea into a Welles/Fellini box and shake it really good.

    Because Scorsese, Spielberg, and DePalma grew up on classic hollywood on TV and revival houses, part of them want to make Old Movies in a New Way.
    The younger generation of film-makers were less enamored of old classics, and their movies, at once more rootless and glib, show.

    There was an effort at colorization to make old b/w films more appealing to young audiences, but the most off-putting thing about classic hollywood is the heavyhanded music that beats you over the head. Take Ida Lupino’s HITCH-HIKER. This would be much more effective without the blaring music that beats you like a billy club. The movie would be so much effective with a more muted and haunting score. Sergio Leone said many good Hollywood westerns were ruined by the music, and he sure didn’t make that mistake.

    What Hollywood should do is have composers write new scores for old movies and offer them as option on dvd. In opera productions, the director gets to change the sets and design. In re-releases of movies on DVD, they should consider new scores for certain movies. This has been done with MAJOR DUNDEE. And with TOUCH OF EVIL re-release, the original Mancini score(that I like) was taken out.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Updating scores is a good idea. They could bring back some well-preserved silent movies too that way.
    , @Lurker
    Optional scores, yes, good idea.

    Ida Lupino’s HITCH-HIKER - seen it couple of times now, great!

  202. @Anonymous
    Tough, but fair assessment, although I wouldn't go as far as saying it "stinks".

    You're right about DeNiro being miscast. Pacino is also miscast as the German Hoffa. Pacino reprises his role from Scent of a Woman and The Devil's Advocate. He tends to play some combo of those roles in all his movies.

    I thought the German POW scene was relatively sympathetic to the Germans. I think it was meant to explain partly why or how he became a hardened killer and wasn't just a routine psychopath.

    I don't think Scorsese had total freedom and control with respect to casting and directing the movie. He has to defer a lot to DeNiro and Pacino and basically let them do whatever they want in making the movie.

    The de-aging thing didn't always work either. There's a scene where DeNiro is supposed to be a young father who beats up a shopkeeper, but while his face is de-aged, he still moves and shuffles like an older man while beating up the guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB8Hb2NwEis

    Thanks.

    “I thought the German POW scene was relatively sympathetic to the Germans. I think it was meant to explain partly why or how he became a hardened killer and wasn’t just a routine psychopath.”

    I have heard that explanation and I don’t buy it. A majority of organized criminals aren’t made the way they are because of military experience, and a majority of combat veterans don’t turn into emotionless killers. The scene is just pure “Don’t forget about the Nazis, and why were the Nazis bad again? Oh yeah…”

    • Replies: @Bugg
    The book, "I Heard You Paint Houses" had a section in which it explained Sheeran became a very effective coldhearted killer having been in combat for over 400 days in Patton's Army. And further he was part of a squad that was "the tip of the spear", the squad who did some of the most brutal fighting. And while we don't like to think about it, WWII was not fought with kid gloves. recall Curtis Lemay saying had the Allies lost, he would have been tried for war crimes for firebombing Dresden. And military service gives anyone some expertise with firearms, explosives and killing.

    Richard Kuklinski claimed to have been part of Gambino capo Roy Demeo's murderous crew. Pretty clear as a pornographer and contract killer in NY/NJ in the 1970s/80s he had some affiliation with the mob.
  203. @ScarletNumber

    I was surprised to find that not only is [Shalhoub] Arab Christian
     
    He played a passable Italian on Wings, as well. Between Emmys and Tonys, he has won six of them for acting. I enjoyed him in Vision Quest, a criminally underrated movie.

    What role did Tony play in Vision Quest? I’ve seen it a couple of times and don’t remember him.

    I certainly agree that it was an underrated movie. One of my sons wrestled in high school and college and the movie did a great job of capturing the sacrifice and work ethic required by the sport.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    That's because I'm dumb. I meant Galaxy Quest.
  204. @Steve Sailer
    I remember a letter to the editor in the LA Times responding to that argument: Writer pointed out 4 most popular stand ups ever in the US -- Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Bob Hope, and Johnny Carson -- were WASPs.

    Will Rogers was Cherokee, not WASP.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Wikipedia says:

    Will "Rogers was 9/32 (just over 1/4) Cherokee, with the remainder European American.[7]"

    , @Jim Don Bob
    Speaking of Injuns, Fauxchohontas is sorry: https://www.theepochtimes.com/warren-i-shouldnt-have-claimed-to-be-native-american_3167886.html.

    2) And Mrs. Maisel slimes Phyliss Schafly: https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/marvelous-mrs-maisel-repeats-debunked-anti-semitism-smear-against-phyllis-schlafly/

    Never heard of this show. Thanks for saving me the trouble of watching it.

  205. @Dennis Dale
    No. It's actually a really good idea. It's not that the Irish aren't funny (though that might certainly be true; sometimes I think they are in fact gloomy, when I recall a childhood friend's ferocious brogue-inflected chain-smoking mother, or the brooding, fatalistic mother in Angela's Ashes) but that the sensibilities are so different. Irish humor tends to be dark, as far as I can see.

    Imagine Joan Rivers (who I never found funny myself) doing her rapid-fire, glib irreverence bit in a Joyce-ian Irish Catholic family. Or maybe not. Joan getting repeated slaps to the head for making fun of Catholic practices might get old after a while.

    An Irish-American Joan Rivers wouldn’t be all that different from the Jewish-American one. As for an Irish-Irish Joan Rivers, she wouldn’t have been a comedienne at all, she have become a nun manqué like Samantha Power or Mary Robinson. Either that or she’d have become one of those humourless actresses who went to IRA (sorry, Sinn Fein) events and made long faces and dramatic readings.

  206. @MikeatMikedotMike
    "If prisoner murder is too uncomfortable for you handle, I would strongly advise never reading a book about the Eastern Front or the Pacific Theater of that same war."

    You completely missed my point. The scene had no business in the movie other than "Don't forget about the holocaust, goy viewer!"

    Huh?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That's definitely a bizarre interpretation of the scene. It had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

    Sheeran claimed to have participated in various massacres during the war. In the context of the movie, the point seemed to be to try to humanize and explain his later behavior as a hitman i.e. he wasn't just some murderous psychopath but went through tough experiences during the war that hardened him up and enabled him to be the kind of man that murders for a living. He wouldn't be as sympathetic as a protaganist otherwise.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sheeran#War_crimes

    Sheeran later recalled his war service as the time when he first developed a callousness to the taking of human life. Sheeran claimed to have participated in numerous massacres and summary executions of German POWs, acts which violated the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and the 1929 Geneva Convention on POWs. In later interviews with Charles Brandt, he divided such massacres into four categories:

    Revenge killings in the heat of battle. Sheeran told Brandt that, when a German soldier had just killed his close friends and then tried to surrender, he would often "send him to hell, too". He described often witnessing similar behavior by fellow GIs.[13]
    Orders from unit commanders during a mission. When describing his first murder for organized crime, Sheeran recalled: "It was just like when an officer would tell you to take a couple of German prisoners back behind the line and for you to 'hurry back'. You did what you had to do."[16]
    The Dachau reprisals and other reprisal killings of concentration camp guards and trustee inmates.[17]
    Calculated attempts to dehumanize and degrade German POWs. While Sheeran's unit was climbing the Harz Mountains, they came upon a Wehrmacht mule train carrying food and drink up the mountainside. The female cooks were first allowed to leave unmolested, then Sheeran and his fellow GI's "ate what we wanted and soiled the rest with our waste". Then the Wehrmacht mule drivers were given shovels and ordered to "dig their own shallow graves". Sheeran later joked that they did so without complaint, likely hoping that he and his buddies would change their minds. But the mule drivers were shot and buried in the holes they had dug. Sheeran explained that by then, he "had no hesitation in doing what I had to do."
     
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    What did Nazis have to do with Jimmy Hoffa and the Philly mob?

    "Huh?" indeed.
  207. @SFG
    'style and *chic*', BTW. And yeah, Hugo Boss designing your uniforms goes a long way.

    One of the big things is they were *trying* to be menacing--skulls everywhere?

    I thought that Hugo Bass had made (not designed) those spiffy uniforms?

  208. @Anonymous
    I am convinced increasingly from his posts recently that Steve finally did his 23 and me and it says he’s half Irish, half Ashkenazi.

    hybrid vigor

  209. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Huh?

    That’s definitely a bizarre interpretation of the scene. It had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

    Sheeran claimed to have participated in various massacres during the war. In the context of the movie, the point seemed to be to try to humanize and explain his later behavior as a hitman i.e. he wasn’t just some murderous psychopath but went through tough experiences during the war that hardened him up and enabled him to be the kind of man that murders for a living. He wouldn’t be as sympathetic as a protaganist otherwise.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sheeran#War_crimes

    Sheeran later recalled his war service as the time when he first developed a callousness to the taking of human life. Sheeran claimed to have participated in numerous massacres and summary executions of German POWs, acts which violated the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and the 1929 Geneva Convention on POWs. In later interviews with Charles Brandt, he divided such massacres into four categories:

    Revenge killings in the heat of battle. Sheeran told Brandt that, when a German soldier had just killed his close friends and then tried to surrender, he would often “send him to hell, too”. He described often witnessing similar behavior by fellow GIs.[13]
    Orders from unit commanders during a mission. When describing his first murder for organized crime, Sheeran recalled: “It was just like when an officer would tell you to take a couple of German prisoners back behind the line and for you to ‘hurry back’. You did what you had to do.”[16]
    The Dachau reprisals and other reprisal killings of concentration camp guards and trustee inmates.[17]
    Calculated attempts to dehumanize and degrade German POWs. While Sheeran’s unit was climbing the Harz Mountains, they came upon a Wehrmacht mule train carrying food and drink up the mountainside. The female cooks were first allowed to leave unmolested, then Sheeran and his fellow GI’s “ate what we wanted and soiled the rest with our waste”. Then the Wehrmacht mule drivers were given shovels and ordered to “dig their own shallow graves”. Sheeran later joked that they did so without complaint, likely hoping that he and his buddies would change their minds. But the mule drivers were shot and buried in the holes they had dug. Sheeran explained that by then, he “had no hesitation in doing what I had to do.”

  210. @Art Deco
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of “persecution”. I

    I have a dear cousin who was taken apart routinely in elementary and junior high school. From a distance, I'd say he still has some scar tissue left over from the experience, and he's 37 years old. He has a beautiful fiancee, a daughter who loves him, a sister who loves him, a mother who loves him, a job that pays the bills, a post-baccalaureate degree, a history as a college teacher, and a residue of friends from each place he's lived and worked over 20-odd years. Life is good, but some part of him is still the kid afraid to go to school each day.

    His life at age 12 was 10x worse than being blackballed by some country club or having a real-estate agent steer you away from certain suburban villages. If he referred to himself as a 'persecuted' individual, that would get some eyerolls. His was an everyday reality for a certain subset of the youth population, and there's mostly nothing to be done about it. The country clubs and the real estate steering is 50 years past.

    I’m glad to hear he’s doing well. Moving on and living a good life on your own terms is the best revenge.

  211. @Dennis Dale
    No. It's actually a really good idea. It's not that the Irish aren't funny (though that might certainly be true; sometimes I think they are in fact gloomy, when I recall a childhood friend's ferocious brogue-inflected chain-smoking mother, or the brooding, fatalistic mother in Angela's Ashes) but that the sensibilities are so different. Irish humor tends to be dark, as far as I can see.

    Imagine Joan Rivers (who I never found funny myself) doing her rapid-fire, glib irreverence bit in a Joyce-ian Irish Catholic family. Or maybe not. Joan getting repeated slaps to the head for making fun of Catholic practices might get old after a while.

    Sure and begorrah, bejaysus, all the saints and Mary! If you do not think “the Irish” are funny then either you’re a jackeen who doesn’t know any “Irish” or you’re a culchie who doesn’t know the definition of irony. I’m trying to be serious here though I’m not sure that I’m not yet having a laugh at your expense or, self-deprecatingly, at mine own.

  212. People watch garbage like this on TV?

    OT

    Judge who ruled on 7-yr-old’s gender ‘transition’ taken off case

    The judge who ruled to grant joint conservatorship to the two parents fighting over the “gender” of their seven-year-old son was recused from the case today, at the orders of another judge. …

    A jury ruled against Mr. Younger …

    Judge Cooks has presided over the Younger-Georgulas trial since 2017. In a prior ruling Judge Cooks granted Dr. Georgulas sole decision-making authority for psychiatric and psychological care for James and Jude, including invasive procedures.

    On October 26, Judge Cooks surprised the nation by not upholding the jury’s ruling or her own previous ruling. …

    Dr. Georgulas also filed a motion on November 5 requesting that Judge Cooks’ ruling be overturned and the jury ruling upheld.

    On October 21, the jury answered two questions: 1) Should the current Joint Managing Conservatorship be replaced by a Sole Managing Conservatorship of James and Jude Younger? 2) Should Jefferey Younger be appointed as the Sole Managing Conservator of James and Jude Younger?

    The jury answered yes to number one and no to number two. …

  213. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Thanks.

    "I thought the German POW scene was relatively sympathetic to the Germans. I think it was meant to explain partly why or how he became a hardened killer and wasn’t just a routine psychopath."

    I have heard that explanation and I don't buy it. A majority of organized criminals aren't made the way they are because of military experience, and a majority of combat veterans don't turn into emotionless killers. The scene is just pure "Don't forget about the Nazis, and why were the Nazis bad again? Oh yeah..."

    The book, “I Heard You Paint Houses” had a section in which it explained Sheeran became a very effective coldhearted killer having been in combat for over 400 days in Patton’s Army. And further he was part of a squad that was “the tip of the spear”, the squad who did some of the most brutal fighting. And while we don’t like to think about it, WWII was not fought with kid gloves. recall Curtis Lemay saying had the Allies lost, he would have been tried for war crimes for firebombing Dresden. And military service gives anyone some expertise with firearms, explosives and killing.

    Richard Kuklinski claimed to have been part of Gambino capo Roy Demeo’s murderous crew. Pretty clear as a pornographer and contract killer in NY/NJ in the 1970s/80s he had some affiliation with the mob.

  214. @Dennis Dale
    No. It's actually a really good idea. It's not that the Irish aren't funny (though that might certainly be true; sometimes I think they are in fact gloomy, when I recall a childhood friend's ferocious brogue-inflected chain-smoking mother, or the brooding, fatalistic mother in Angela's Ashes) but that the sensibilities are so different. Irish humor tends to be dark, as far as I can see.

    Imagine Joan Rivers (who I never found funny myself) doing her rapid-fire, glib irreverence bit in a Joyce-ian Irish Catholic family. Or maybe not. Joan getting repeated slaps to the head for making fun of Catholic practices might get old after a while.

    Irish humor tends to be dark, as far as I can see… Joan getting repeated slaps to the head for making fun of Catholic practices might get old after a while.

    Sure, he wouldn’t be your father if he didn’t beat ya!

  215. @Twodees Partain
    Will Rogers was Cherokee, not WASP.

    Wikipedia says:

    Will “Rogers was 9/32 (just over 1/4) Cherokee, with the remainder European American.[7]”

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    He was a citizen of the Cherokee nation from birth, born in Cherokee territory before it became Oklahoma. When you're wrong, you're wrong, Steve. Quibbling over his ancestry will just get you to his Celtic roots. Don't take it so hard. Everybody makes mistakes.
  216. @Kronos
    Was the guy legit or very PC?

    Google is your friend.

    Not to mention, a basic reading primer.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    I use DuckDuckGo and BRAVE myself. It certainly helps with ads and cookie trackers.
    , @Twodees Partain
    Ha! Here I was, thinking that Google is the enemy of humanity.
  217. @Dennis Dale
    No. It's actually a really good idea. It's not that the Irish aren't funny (though that might certainly be true; sometimes I think they are in fact gloomy, when I recall a childhood friend's ferocious brogue-inflected chain-smoking mother, or the brooding, fatalistic mother in Angela's Ashes) but that the sensibilities are so different. Irish humor tends to be dark, as far as I can see.

    Imagine Joan Rivers (who I never found funny myself) doing her rapid-fire, glib irreverence bit in a Joyce-ian Irish Catholic family. Or maybe not. Joan getting repeated slaps to the head for making fun of Catholic practices might get old after a while.

    The Irish are the funniest people I ever met. Deadly wit.

  218. @SFG
    There's a Semitic and an anti-Semitic brigade, and they get their dukes out whenever Jews come up. Steve must know this by now and puts these things up to get traffic on his blog. I actually don't blame him--gotta drive traffic somehow. From what I've heard, he also moderates out a lot of the anti-Semitic comments (i.e., there are even *more* than you see), probably because if his commentariat turned into Stormfront it'd be a lot less interesting. Heartiste became a lot less enlightening after he went full Nazi.

    “There’s a Semitic and an anti-Semitic brigade, and they get their dukes out whenever Jews come up. ”

    Jews always come up. He could be talking about the Andaman Islands, and someone would bring up Jews.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
    • Replies: @Jack D

    He could be talking about the Andaman Islands, and someone would bring up Jews.
     
    The Andaman Islands? Did you know that there are only 3 billionaires in the Andaman Islands and 5 of the 3 are Jewish.
  219. @Anonymous

    The Irishman stinks.
     
    I haven't seen it but I hope it's not like GANGS OF NY and AVIATOR, where Scoresese was trying to make someone else's movie. GANGS is like Griffith on steroids & sound while AVIATOR was his stab at Wellesianism. Scorsese developed a style of his own that is at once furious and fastidious. No need for him to play Terry Gilliam whose idea of filmmaking is to throw his idea into a Welles/Fellini box and shake it really good.

    Because Scorsese, Spielberg, and DePalma grew up on classic hollywood on TV and revival houses, part of them want to make Old Movies in a New Way.
    The younger generation of film-makers were less enamored of old classics, and their movies, at once more rootless and glib, show.

    There was an effort at colorization to make old b/w films more appealing to young audiences, but the most off-putting thing about classic hollywood is the heavyhanded music that beats you over the head. Take Ida Lupino's HITCH-HIKER. This would be much more effective without the blaring music that beats you like a billy club. The movie would be so much effective with a more muted and haunting score. Sergio Leone said many good Hollywood westerns were ruined by the music, and he sure didn't make that mistake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcKZ636kvxg

    What Hollywood should do is have composers write new scores for old movies and offer them as option on dvd. In opera productions, the director gets to change the sets and design. In re-releases of movies on DVD, they should consider new scores for certain movies. This has been done with MAJOR DUNDEE. And with TOUCH OF EVIL re-release, the original Mancini score(that I like) was taken out.

    Updating scores is a good idea. They could bring back some well-preserved silent movies too that way.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Are there any old movies that are well-known to be bogged down by a bad score? In general, people were pretty good at composing orchestral music in 1939.

    I could imagine some noir film that would be improved with Nine Inch Nails score, but I can't think of any offhand.

    I could see colorizing some black and white comedies, such as "Some Like It Hot," which was originally planned to be shot in color, but the makeup on Lemmon and Curtis look terrible in color.

    , @Anonymous

    Updating scores is a good idea. They could bring back some well-preserved silent movies too that way.
     
    Of course, the 'rediscovery' of silence was key to better use of sound/music.

    Aptly, the opening song of THE GRADUATE was the "Sound of Silence". Nichols used music only when necessary to convey mood. There are moments of silence as when Elaine discovers Ben had an affair with her mother. An earlier Hollywood movie would have hammered us with music = "Oh My God!!!!". The music in THE GRADUATE wasn't used at all times ordering us to LOOK, FEEL, LAUGH, CRY. Had the film been made even 10 yrs earlier, it could have been ruined with Too Much Music. Same year, IN COLD BLOOD also used music far more subtly than in earlier works.
    And WILD BUNCH that came out 2 yrs later was a different kind of Western not only its greater realism and violence but a more strategic and supportive use of music. If Old Westerns poured on the musical sauce heavy all over all the images, Jerry Fielding flavored with just the right amount of spices. It was interwoven with the work than pasted upon it.
  220. @Jack D

    They weren’t welcome in certain venues, they were defined as rivals in certain settings, they were treated unfairly in certain settings.
     
    This certainly fits at least some common definitions of "persecution". I realize that by European standards of ethnic cleansing (mass starvation, pogroms, genocide, etc.) the Irish and the Jews both had it pretty good in America, but this is a low bar. Compare to the 7th circle of Hell or the Black Hole of Calcutta, the Lower East Side in the 19th century was a great place. And rarely has any immigrant group been welcomed with open arms - the Indians didn't exactly bring the welcome wagon around for the white settlers.

    But it is hair splitting to say that OTOH Irish and Jews were subject to various forms of discrimination but they weren't actually "persecuted". America was supposed to be the New Jerusalem, where ancient forms of prejudice no longer held sway. So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.

    So the standard is not whether America was better than Old Europe, it was whether it was living up to its own ideals and it did not always do so.

    Like the zeroeth amendment?

  221. @Hibernian
    As a Hibernian, I take comfort from the fact that one of our boys, Charles Carroll, signed the Declaration.

    Charles Carroll of Carrollton’s mother was Elizabeth Brooke, herself the daughter of Clement Brooke and Jane Sewall – not much of a Celtic flavor on the distaff side. His father, Charles Carroll of Annapolis, was the son of a mother surnamed “Darnall” – again, not much of a Celtic ring. This suggests that Charles Carroll of Carrollton was, at most, 1/4 Irish by descent: hardly a wearer of the green.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    There's always got to be somebody popping his oar in to insist some Irishman who accomplished something is not really Irish. What motivates it? Probably more than one thing.
  222. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:

    OT: Remember the hate-hoaxing Helsinki city councilor Abdirahim “Husu” Hussein? He’s in more trouble. (Courtesy of the English-language Finnish website run by an Iranian immigrant):

    Councilor Abdirahim “Husu” Hussein (SDP), failed to notify the Social Democratic Party of his past criminal convictions in a document filled in and signed by all of the party’s candidates in the parliamentary elections in April, reports Iltalehti.

    Iltalehti on Wednesday wrote that Hussein has been fined for fraud three times in the 2000s – in 2001, 2002 and 2006 – by the District Court of Varsinais-Suomi.

    Hussein, currently a councillor for the City of Helsinki, received a total of over 10,000 euros in unwarranted income allowance and labour market subsidy by misrepresenting his employment situation to the welfare division of the City of Turku and the Social Insurance Institution of Finland (Kela).

    Link

  223. @MikeatMikedotMike
    "If prisoner murder is too uncomfortable for you handle, I would strongly advise never reading a book about the Eastern Front or the Pacific Theater of that same war."

    You completely missed my point. The scene had no business in the movie other than "Don't forget about the holocaust, goy viewer!"

    I agree. I liked The Irishman even with all the caveats, but I found the scene where Sheerhan murdered German prisoners after forcing them to dig their graves completely gratuitous.

  224. @Johann Ricke

    I wouldn’t even know how to get Amazon Prime Video. Does it come with Amazon Prime, or is it a separate service? Can I watch it on my TV, or would I have to use my laptop?
     
    Get yourself a Roku box. Simplest interface of all the contenders.

    Roku is pretty decent.

  225. @Twodees Partain
    Will Rogers was Cherokee, not WASP.

    Speaking of Injuns, Fauxchohontas is sorry: https://www.theepochtimes.com/warren-i-shouldnt-have-claimed-to-be-native-american_3167886.html.

    2) And Mrs. Maisel slimes Phyliss Schafly: https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/marvelous-mrs-maisel-repeats-debunked-anti-semitism-smear-against-phyllis-schlafly/

    Never heard of this show. Thanks for saving me the trouble of watching it.

  226. @Philosophaster
    Charles Carroll of Carrollton's mother was Elizabeth Brooke, herself the daughter of Clement Brooke and Jane Sewall - not much of a Celtic flavor on the distaff side. His father, Charles Carroll of Annapolis, was the son of a mother surnamed "Darnall" - again, not much of a Celtic ring. This suggests that Charles Carroll of Carrollton was, at most, 1/4 Irish by descent: hardly a wearer of the green.

    There’s always got to be somebody popping his oar in to insist some Irishman who accomplished something is not really Irish. What motivates it? Probably more than one thing.

    • Replies: @Pat Hannagan
    The rule of HBD thumb is that all the Irish are stupid ergo if an Irishman did something clever then he/she is obviously not Irish and if they are then it wasn't clever.
    , @Cagey Beast
    Speaking of Irish-Americans, the Red Scare girls spoke ill of them at the start of yesterday's podcast:

    Soul Psycho
    The ladies discuss Kamala dropping out of the race, Buttigieg's McKinsey ties, Hillary's Howard Stern appearance, the Peloton ad controversy and Camille Paglia's latest column on the death of the Hollywood sex symbol.
     
    https://www.patreon.com/posts/soul-psycho-32174740

    They call Irish-Americans "downwardly mobile" but say the Irish generally are "like Jews: they're hilariously funny and good with money". Later they describe Boris Johnson as "Gary Busey playing Trump with a British accent". I laughed.
  227. @Steve Sailer
    Huh?

    What did Nazis have to do with Jimmy Hoffa and the Philly mob?

    “Huh?” indeed.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Hoffa was German. It foreshadowed Sheeran's cold betrayal and murder of Hoffa.
  228. @R.G. Camara
    As I stated above, Carson presented classic BPD, and even sociopathic tendencies. He would keep people around demanding extreme loyalty, but at the hint of betrayal he turned vicious and cold and almost never forgave. He kept a hold of his top spot by being ruthless behind the scenes.

    For you older guys, remember how he used to make tons of jokes about his legal representative/lawyer? It was one guy whom Carson picked up when he was fresh out of law school and Carson was already a star. The guy was basically Carson's legal slave, but was the sole person Carson had do all his legal work for. Worked with Carson for more than decade. Then the legal guy did one wrong thing (nothing major) and Carson never forgave him and cut him out. Guy wrote a book about it.

    He was like that even to non-friends. Rodney Dangerfield, before he ever went on Carson, was blackballed----because he rightly complained when Carson stole one of his jokes. He let Johnny know and Carson freaked and blamed Dangerfield (!). Rodney spent years trying to get on, and only when he grovelled at Carson's feet and got him into a club one night did Carson relent and let Dangerfield on---where he shined.

    Carson's persona on TV was decidedly NOT him IRL.

    My boss went to dinner with Jackie Mason once around 1990. Mason spent the whole evening complaining about how Ed Sullivan had ruined his career in c. 1964.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Stand-up comedy is a misnomer. It is in fact stand-up tragedy. The laughter is the sound of catharsis.
  229. @SFG
    Joan Rivers was a Republican. Raised Irish, she could well have wound up as a Phyllis Schlafly type.

    Rivers actually hosted a radio call-in show in NYC, very ably, for a year or so — including 9/11. And no one that day blistered the walls more vividly or eloquently demanding retribution. None of that “Oooh, we must try to understand why they hate us” crap.

  230. The only unrealistic thing about that scene was that they were forced to dig any graves . Do you think SHAEF was going to send out the CSI team to determine who shot a couple of German prisoners ? The whole story is BS. Scorsese is a competent director but I think within 10 years of his death he will be a movie trivia question .

  231. @MikeatMikedotMike
    What did Nazis have to do with Jimmy Hoffa and the Philly mob?

    "Huh?" indeed.

    Hoffa was German. It foreshadowed Sheeran’s cold betrayal and murder of Hoffa.

  232. @Jane Plain
    "There’s a Semitic and an anti-Semitic brigade, and they get their dukes out whenever Jews come up. "

    Jews always come up. He could be talking about the Andaman Islands, and someone would bring up Jews.

    He could be talking about the Andaman Islands, and someone would bring up Jews.

    The Andaman Islands? Did you know that there are only 3 billionaires in the Andaman Islands and 5 of the 3 are Jewish.

    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    🤣
  233. @Jane Plain
    One of the biggest hits of the 1950s, made into a successful movie was The Best of Everything, which was about girls in the publishing industry.

    It's forgotten now but it was a huge hit. I think Mad Men referred to it.

    Sounds like How to Marry a Millionaire, a Marilyn Monroe comedy turned into a TV series with the very young Barbara Eden

    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    It's nothing like that.

    The Best of Everything was actually pretty good.

    It featured a lovely young Hope Lange and Stephen Boyd (the chariot guy in Ben Hur) at his handsomest.

    The only false note was Joan Crawford hamming it up as Joan Crawford in a part for a woman 20 years younger. Parts of it were actually filmed in Manhattan, and one series of scenes was filmed in a housing project on the LES when such places were populated by working class whites, now extinct in Manhattan.
    , @Anonymous
    From the neck down, Monroe and Eden were very similar. They shared the same stand-in (a woman who fit the wardrobe exactly), one Evelyn Moriarty. In my opinion Eden had nicer boobs and a better curve of her bottom whereas Monroe did have better legs.

    Monroe had a more beautiful face and a lot more raw acting talent, but Eden had the better life and was more "normal", though she did tragically lose her only child. Monroe died at 36, Eden is still alive at 88 and still pretty much compos mentis. I saw an interview of her a couple of years back where she seemed quite functional and able to get around better than some people in their sixties.
  234. @Steve Sailer
    It wins tons of awards.

    The distinctive thing about the show is that it really really likes expensive costumes and sets for the sheer Let's Put on a Show joy of expensive costumes and sets. I don't think that's contrived. It could have been a much better show about a young woman in 1960 fighting to be accepted by the gay mafia that, say, runs Broadway show set design as a real talent, but they didn't have the courage to go there. So, instead, they just did the Life of Joan Rivers (if Joan hadn't been funny).

    A young woman fighting to be accepted by the gay mafia.

    Boy, Steve. You have said of yourself of several occasions, “I don’t have an ear for what the public is dying to hear.”

    But this makes every other thing you’ve said seem mass-popular. Like “Pac-man-in-1982” popular.

    A straight woman entering a gay-dominated field, beating them at their own game? A show where gay men are portrayed as the obstacle to a woman’s success? And the TV industry signing on to this?

    “Sailer Tonight” will debut on CNN before that happens.

  235. @Jane Plain
    I suppose in these parts this is a stupid question, but why is Rachel Brosnahan's ethnicity important?

    Are all Jews supposed to have frizzy hair, big noses, and dark olive skin?

    It's a good thing back in the old days the bosses didn't run the Sailer blog's blood quantum tests. Hedy Lamarr, Sylvia Sidney, Shelley Winters and Lauren Bacall would never have been signed to contracts. (That's just the women.) There were also lesser known but interesting actresses such as Piper Laurie and Barbara Barrie who were Jewish.

    I can't speak to the show's wittiness or lack thereof, never having seen it, but Brosnahan looks to me to have sufficiently non-specific looks to be convincingly Ashkenazi Jewish.

    Barbara Bain, the cool worldly blonde of Mission Impossible TV fame, was Jewish

  236. @Jack D
    The previous seasons were slightly funnier. My wife was a big fan and last night she literally fell asleep during the season 3 opener.

    Previous seasons were worthwhile for the big budget sets. There was a scene set in a NY garment factory that was faithful to the last detail and it wasn't even key to the plot. I hadn't seen anything like it for 40 years. Mrs Maisels dad was a Columbia math professor and they lived in an apartment that would be the envy of a hedge fund guy.

    Mrs Maisels dad was a Columbia math professor and they lived in an apartment that would be the envy of a hedge fund guy.

    My New York relatives explained to me that the dad didn’t own the apartment. Columbia did. He rented from them. Nothing else would have made sense.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Columbia did (does) indeed own some apartment buildings on Morningside Heights near the campus. In the days when I was familiar with them (early '80s) their prewar glory had faded - the oriental rugs in the lobby were threadbare, the elevators creaked, but some of the apartments were quite large. But maybe in the '50s they were still in top shape. Even if Prof. Maisels had a low rent Columbia apartment, in the show the thing was still decorated to the max - just the furniture and fixin's budget would have bankrupted a Columbia prof. who in those days made bubkes and who would have probably eaten dinner on a folding card table, not in baronial splendor as depicted on the show.
  237. @Jane Plain
    I suppose in these parts this is a stupid question, but why is Rachel Brosnahan's ethnicity important?

    Are all Jews supposed to have frizzy hair, big noses, and dark olive skin?

    It's a good thing back in the old days the bosses didn't run the Sailer blog's blood quantum tests. Hedy Lamarr, Sylvia Sidney, Shelley Winters and Lauren Bacall would never have been signed to contracts. (That's just the women.) There were also lesser known but interesting actresses such as Piper Laurie and Barbara Barrie who were Jewish.

    I can't speak to the show's wittiness or lack thereof, never having seen it, but Brosnahan looks to me to have sufficiently non-specific looks to be convincingly Ashkenazi Jewish.

    Are all Jews supposed to have frizzy hair, big noses, and dark olive skin?

    Yeah, you must be new around here. Refer to Sailer’s First Law of Female Journalism.

  238. @Cagey Beast
    There's always got to be somebody popping his oar in to insist some Irishman who accomplished something is not really Irish. What motivates it? Probably more than one thing.

    The rule of HBD thumb is that all the Irish are stupid ergo if an Irishman did something clever then he/she is obviously not Irish and if they are then it wasn’t clever.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Yes I think that's what motivates almost all of it. There's also the Irish side of it. Contemporary, official Irishness requires one to claim postcolonial, Third World status. The modern Irish want to be Swedes when it comes to their their globohomo, lifestyle-liberalism and Africans when it comes to their platinum card victim status. Claiming Edmund Burke or the Duke of Wellington as one of their own doesn't help with either narrative. It's the "no true Scotsman" game but with Irishness.
    , @Anon
    https://twitter.com/jnmulholland/status/1203414758239674368
  239. @Sol
    I wish Johnny Carson were still around. And 80s NBC. Too bad Tarantino won't be doing a movie set in the early 80s.

    Too bad Tarantino won’t be doing a movie set in the early 80s.

    He’ll be making movies until he’s an elderly man. Maybe he believes that stuff about retiring after one or two more pictures. But I sure don’t.

  240. @Kronos
    Are there any other good books detailing the decline of the WASPs?

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PFVDAS2aL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    Are there any other good books detailing the decline of the WASPs?

    Calling slumber_j ! Reviews of a relatively recent book (I haven’t read it) :

    Cheerful Money
    Me, My Family, and the Last Days of Wasp Splendor

    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112742316

    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/books/review/Gray-t.html

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Sweet! It’s even on Audible!
  241. @Jane Plain
    E. Digby Baltzell, who coined the term, might be a good start.

    (Man, they don't make racists and anti-Semites like they used to. Or maybe you're just starting out in the racially obsessed world of the alt-right.)

    E. Digby Baltzell, who coined the term

    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/books/review/Gray-t.html

    Correction: October 18, 2009
    A review on Sept. 27 about “Cheerful Money: Me, My Family, and the Last Days of Wasp Splendor,” by Tad Friend, misstated the sociologist E. Digby Baltzell’s connection with the term White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Though he popularized both the expression and its acronym, WASP, in his 1964 book “The Protestant Establishment,” he did not coin either one.

    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    Thanks. I didn't know that.

    I wonder who invented it.

    But anyway, Baltzell is essential reading.

  242. @Steve Sailer
    The show has many good aspects, but it's just very weird in that it's a show putatively about a stand up comedian made by people whose talents and interests don't have anything to do with stand up comedy. They like and are good at set decorating, musicals, costume design, and all sorts of stuff, none of which is stand-up comedy.

    Why not make the show about a young woman who takes New York by storm in 1960 as an interior decorator or a dress designer? There is an interesting show to be made about a young woman battling the gay mafia that dominates those professions, but the show's creators didn't have the guts to go there.

    Because it’s not what (they think) the show’s audience wants? Sex and the city was a lot about the clothes and the shoes and the shopping. It was about sex too, and changing attitudes and all that, and brought into mainstream the phenomena that was unfolding but not discussed as openly at the time. (I speculate, I wasn’t living in NYC around when the show came out to know if it was behind / ahead the curve / just more accurately depicted a slice of real life than was common for tv at the time)

    I guess a lot of people who watch the show also like the escapism, and the interiors and the clothes and the sepia-toned nostalgia and wistfulness for a more conventional time, where society had defined roles for everyone and most people conformed and life was less complicated.

    The stand up comic angle is just a hook. It’s not the real story. Maybe the real story really is the clothes and the interiors.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It's kind of like if somebody who was really into what Baltimore was like in 1913 made a movie about an amiable young giant named Rabe Booth who throws like a girl.
  243. @Cagey Beast
    There's always got to be somebody popping his oar in to insist some Irishman who accomplished something is not really Irish. What motivates it? Probably more than one thing.

    Speaking of Irish-Americans, the Red Scare girls spoke ill of them at the start of yesterday’s podcast:

    Soul Psycho
    The ladies discuss Kamala dropping out of the race, Buttigieg’s McKinsey ties, Hillary’s Howard Stern appearance, the Peloton ad controversy and Camille Paglia’s latest column on the death of the Hollywood sex symbol.

    https://www.patreon.com/posts/soul-psycho-32174740

    They call Irish-Americans “downwardly mobile” but say the Irish generally are “like Jews: they’re hilariously funny and good with money”. Later they describe Boris Johnson as “Gary Busey playing Trump with a British accent”. I laughed.

  244. @ConfirmationBias
    Because it’s not what (they think) the show’s audience wants? Sex and the city was a lot about the clothes and the shoes and the shopping. It was about sex too, and changing attitudes and all that, and brought into mainstream the phenomena that was unfolding but not discussed as openly at the time. (I speculate, I wasn’t living in NYC around when the show came out to know if it was behind / ahead the curve / just more accurately depicted a slice of real life than was common for tv at the time)

    I guess a lot of people who watch the show also like the escapism, and the interiors and the clothes and the sepia-toned nostalgia and wistfulness for a more conventional time, where society had defined roles for everyone and most people conformed and life was less complicated.

    The stand up comic angle is just a hook. It’s not the real story. Maybe the real story really is the clothes and the interiors.

    It’s kind of like if somebody who was really into what Baltimore was like in 1913 made a movie about an amiable young giant named Rabe Booth who throws like a girl.

  245. @Anonymous
    OT, but we have a winner:

    https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/704991



    Making Black Women Scientists under White Empiricism: The Racialization of Epistemology in Physics

    Chanda Prescod-Weinstein

    Department of Physics and Astronomy and Department of Women’s and Gender Studies [WUT?], University of New Hampshire, Durham

    In this article I take on the question of how the exclusion of Black American women from physics impacts physics epistemologies, and I highlight the dynamic relationship between this exclusion and the struggle for women to reconcile “Black woman” with “physicist.” I describe the phenomenon where white epistemic claims about science—which are not rooted in empirical evidence—receive more credence and attention than Black women’s epistemic claims about their own lives. To develop this idea, I apply an intersectional analysis to Joseph Martin’s concept of prestige asymmetry in physics, developing the concept of white empiricism to discuss the impact that Black women’s exclusion has had on physics epistemology. By considering the essentialization of racism and sexism alongside the social construction of ascribed identities, I assess the way Black women physicists self-construct as scientists and the subsequent impact of epistemic outcomes on the science itself.

    ---

    Who is allowed to be an observer in physics, and who is fundamentally denied the possibility? In this article, I propose that race and ethnicity impact epistemic outcomes in physics, despite the universality of the laws that undergird physics, and I introduce the concept of white empiricism to provide one explanation for why. White empiricism is the phenomenon through which only white people (particularly white men) are read has having a fundamental capacity for objectivity and Black people (particularly Black women) are produced as an ontological other. This phenomenon is stabilized through the production and retention of what Joseph Martin calls prestige asymmetry, which explains how social resources in physics are distributed based on prestige. In American society, Black women are on the losing end of an ontic prestige asymmetry whereby different scientists “garner unequal public approbation” in their everyday lives due to ascribed identities such as gender and race (Martin 2017, 475). White empiricism is one of the mechanisms by which this asymmetry follows Black women physicists into their professional lives. Because white empiricism contravenes core tenets of modern physics (e.g., covariance and relativity), it negatively impacts scientific outcomes and harms the people who are othered.
     

    Full text available at link.

    This may have been produced by an SJW AI, not sure.

    Thanks.

  246. @Anonymous

    I’d rather watch the alternative story: a switched-at-birth Joan Rivers grows up Irish.
     
    I dunno. John Wayne or James Cagney raised as a Jew(and maybe working as ACLU lawyer) sounds hilarious.

    That’s a promising idea.

  247. @Pat Hannagan
    The rule of HBD thumb is that all the Irish are stupid ergo if an Irishman did something clever then he/she is obviously not Irish and if they are then it wasn't clever.

    Yes I think that’s what motivates almost all of it. There’s also the Irish side of it. Contemporary, official Irishness requires one to claim postcolonial, Third World status. The modern Irish want to be Swedes when it comes to their their globohomo, lifestyle-liberalism and Africans when it comes to their platinum card victim status. Claiming Edmund Burke or the Duke of Wellington as one of their own doesn’t help with either narrative. It’s the “no true Scotsman” game but with Irishness.

    • Replies: @Anon
    "Irish" generally refers to native Irish Catholics, not Anglo-Irish Protestant settlers and their descendants, most of whom went back to Britain after Irish independence.
  248. @dvorak

    Usually comedy shows (e.g. Seinfeld) work the other way – you take someone who is already a comedian and teach them to act enough to be in a sitcom, which is much easier than vice versa.
     
    That's true for Jerry, and it only *half* worked because he was the straight man in the series.

    The other three principals are world-class comic actors, not comedians.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8_2hPjljag

    “Curb Your Enthusiasm” includes a (fictional) “Seinfeld” reunion in which Larry David insults Jason Alexander, who walks off the set, so Larry steps in to prove he could have played George (i.e., Larry).

    Nope.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    But he was able to play Larry David on Curb Your Enthusiasm.

    Speaking of non-actors, I once heard Larry David explain that they had once actually convinced Steinbrenner to actually appear on the show as himself, but he turned out to be so stiff and wooden as an actor that they couldn't use it.
    , @dvorak

    “Curb Your Enthusiasm” includes a (fictional) “Seinfeld” reunion
     
    A very patient group pieced together the putative reunion episode from Curb:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C03BxeX03pY
  249. @S. Anonyia
    Assortative mating based on IQ is MORE of a thing now than in the 50s/60s. College grads, especially with advanced degrees, rarely marry someone without a degree. That happened all the time back then, with both men and women. High IQ men got with pretty/average IQ secretaries. High IQ women from middle class/poorer families generally had zero access to higher education, so they were content to settle down with their town’s mechanics or factory workers. This is what happened with my grandmother: she’s extremely bright even in advanced age and most of her brothers (who are also quite sharp) got college scholarships and two even went on to work for NASA. But she and her sister never left their small hometown and married pretty regular guys.

    Dalton Conley is studying whether assortative mating for the genetics of educational attainment has been changing over time using genomes of young and old people. He first tried it in 2013 when Polygenic Scores were new and didn’t find evidence to support Herrnstein’s theory that assortative mating increased. But he should soon have a new study using Lee et al’s much improved 2018 PGS, so we shall see.

  250. @Lot
    While I am anti-boob-tube in principle, it is hard to deny we’re in a golden age of TV.

    (Sit-coms are the exception, I’d put their gold ages from roughly 62-68 and again 88-97. )

    The best solution to this quandary is found at eztv.io and thepiratebay.org (when it is actually working).

    The slight hassle of torrenting keeps you from veging out in front of the TV, and for me at least keeps me watching only about 2 hours of TV a week compared 10+ when I had cable. It also stops your money from going to people who hate you in Hollywood.

    Asian PB is always up. Slightly hard to find but it is there.

  251. @Old Palo Altan
    My apologies: I did not mean to suggest that you were unaware of the man's personal qualities, but perhaps of his status as a chieftain within the Carroll clan.

    Probably the most aristocratic of the Signers, at least from the European view of what makes a member of that exclusive breed.

    I knew the name was an Anglicized Celtic one; wasn’t aware of the family’s status in Ireland. I was in a general way aware that emigration to Maryland for at least some was an alternative to being reduced to the status of the landless peasantry in Ireland. Other alternatives were conversion to Protestantism and service in various countries, mostly Catholic, as a mercenary soldier. (The Flight of the Earls)

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Most of the O'Carrolls I have noticed who fled abroad served in France, but the most successful seem to have been members of a branch which ended up in Germany. Their descendants, the Barons von Hoenning O'Carroll, are firmly part of the upper nobility of Bavaria, having married an heiress of a great estate. The heir of that property went on to marry firstly a Princess Lobkowitz and secondly a Princess of Bavaria. He had eleven children by the first and five more by the second - the name is not in danger of dying out.
  252. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Are there any other good books detailing the decline of the WASPs?
     
    Calling slumber_j ! Reviews of a relatively recent book (I haven’t read it) :

    Cheerful Money
    Me, My Family, and the Last Days of Wasp Splendor

     
    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112742316

    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/books/review/Gray-t.html

    Sweet! It’s even on Audible!

  253. Anonymous[405] • Disclaimer says:
    @Johann Ricke

    If you want to read stuff into Jefferson’s Declaration that isn’t there, that’s of course your right, but don’t expect others to find it binding. At the time he wrote it, “America” was a bunch of white people, primarily from the British Isles (and their slaves, whose opinions and wants weren’t relevant). It was written to other white people (primarily IN the British Isles). This tendency for Jews, Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, subcontinentals, moslems, whoever, to show up a century or two later and decide it was written with them in mind is bizarre and delusional.
     
    Irredentist purism is an interesting subject for academic discussion. In real life, upsetting the apple cart may require civil war and oceans of blood, because the citizenry currently includes all these other people, and they're not giving up what they consider to be their right to have their say on the direction of the country unless they are somehow all killed or deported. A country that has issues with a few thousand friendly dead from a war in which foreigners came here and killed 3000 people in the two most important cities in the nation, is not going to be up for a civil war that involves millions of dead, or more.

    Yes, but that was true in 1776, and that revolution succeeded. Not everyone has to support a revolution. You need for a few percent to be willing to fight and a somewhat larger base to quietly support them and a substantial proportion of the population to not really care that much either way but just fear the revolutionaries as much as the state. Then by denying the state of the credible monopoly of violence, you make things dangerous enough for ardent supporters to start fleeing. People start keeping their mouths shut and not seeing some things, and the organs of the State start taking casualties. It gets expensive and brutal.

    Still, the generals never surrender. But at some point, the accountants do. Shortly thereafter, a treaty is signed, the revolutionaries have a mopping up, and then a serious party.

    We are not there yet. There is a lot more ruin in this nation, and the beer and sportsball probably has another generation to go. I’ll be ashes by then.

    • Replies: @miss marple
    I've been considering going in 1/1000th with some people looking to colonize the largest affordable deserted island available.
  254. @Reg Cæsar
    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51-ILOaf9lL._SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_FMwebp_.jpg


    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51IP-2AE76L._AC_UL160_.jpg

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51j-Cotwr3L._SL300_.jpg

    Both look pretty good…

  255. @Steve Sailer
    My boss went to dinner with Jackie Mason once around 1990. Mason spent the whole evening complaining about how Ed Sullivan had ruined his career in c. 1964.

    Stand-up comedy is a misnomer. It is in fact stand-up tragedy. The laughter is the sound of catharsis.

  256. @ScarletNumber

    I was surprised to find that not only is [Shalhoub] Arab Christian
     
    He played a passable Italian on Wings, as well. Between Emmys and Tonys, he has won six of them for acting. I enjoyed him in Vision Quest, a criminally underrated movie.

    Are there any Arab Christians? Isn’t Mr. Shaloub a descendant of the Christians of the Byzantine Empire? Because Arabs have invaded west into the homelands of his ancestors does that make him an Arab?

    Vision Quest – when I see that written down I immediately picture an independent video rental store somewhere in the 1980s.

  257. @Dave Pinsen
    Updating scores is a good idea. They could bring back some well-preserved silent movies too that way.

    Are there any old movies that are well-known to be bogged down by a bad score? In general, people were pretty good at composing orchestral music in 1939.

    I could imagine some noir film that would be improved with Nine Inch Nails score, but I can’t think of any offhand.

    I could see colorizing some black and white comedies, such as “Some Like It Hot,” which was originally planned to be shot in color, but the makeup on Lemmon and Curtis look terrible in color.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Are there any old movies that are well-known to be bogged down by a bad score?
     
    I got a drugstore dollar-bin copy of Birth of a Nation, which is in the public domain and anyone can do whatever he wants to it.

    This version was unwatchable, because the opening soundtrack was Grieg's Holberg Suite, and visions of fjords and drunken Danes on haystacks kept intruding.
    , @Anonymous

    good at composing orchestral music in 1939
     
    Orchestral music is too heavy for most movies. Who needs all those instruments and all that sound in a scene with a character or two? Also, even in big scenes, they laid it on too thick. If the music was outstanding, it worked. If it was the conventional formula conveying the simplest emotions, it was like words put in bold letters with lots of apostrophe.

    HIGH NOON used music in an original way in the opening scene, one that might have inspired APOCALYPSE NOW.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKLvKZ6nIiA

    But rest of the movie has that Too Muchness. The shootout would be much better without every moment being punctuated with music telling us how we should feel. It was as if Hollywood felt that unless the music constantly charged people's emotions, they might grow bored and lose interest.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZil728hUy0
    , @Anonymous

    I could imagine some noir film that would be improved with Nine Inch Nails score, but I can’t think of any offhand.
     
    For noir, a light jazzy score or dissonant modernist score might work best.

    Worst example of score alteration was probably the 80s release of METROPOLIS. I like Benatar, but this is ridiculous.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7aPagGFYtc

    https://youtu.be/0JAHq-KFTAE?t=1m23s

    Still, changing musical score for silents is fair game since most silents didn't come with a set score.
  258. @JimB
    In his book Funny People, Steve Allen claims nearly all America's funniest comedians are Jewish, black, or Irish because they use humor as a defense against persecution and social ostracism.

    Don’t know about the others but the Irish are funny generally as a cover up for forgetting what they were saying due to inebriation. This is also why they’re prone to making up cutesy names for people whose names slip their mind at the moment.

    • Replies: @JimB

    Don’t know about the others but the Irish are funny generally as a cover up for forgetting what they were saying due to inebriation.
     
    Perhaps, but I've noticed many (most) sober Irish women I know are masters of ironic humor.
  259. @Cowboy Shaw
    This story had people rolling in the aisles across England last week, as an extremely unfunny woke south asian comedian rolled out the wrong routine in front of a lunch of drunk city cricketing types: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50644317

    As far as one can tell, it is his only routine.

  260. @Anonymous

    The Irishman stinks.
     
    I haven't seen it but I hope it's not like GANGS OF NY and AVIATOR, where Scoresese was trying to make someone else's movie. GANGS is like Griffith on steroids & sound while AVIATOR was his stab at Wellesianism. Scorsese developed a style of his own that is at once furious and fastidious. No need for him to play Terry Gilliam whose idea of filmmaking is to throw his idea into a Welles/Fellini box and shake it really good.

    Because Scorsese, Spielberg, and DePalma grew up on classic hollywood on TV and revival houses, part of them want to make Old Movies in a New Way.
    The younger generation of film-makers were less enamored of old classics, and their movies, at once more rootless and glib, show.

    There was an effort at colorization to make old b/w films more appealing to young audiences, but the most off-putting thing about classic hollywood is the heavyhanded music that beats you over the head. Take Ida Lupino's HITCH-HIKER. This would be much more effective without the blaring music that beats you like a billy club. The movie would be so much effective with a more muted and haunting score. Sergio Leone said many good Hollywood westerns were ruined by the music, and he sure didn't make that mistake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcKZ636kvxg

    What Hollywood should do is have composers write new scores for old movies and offer them as option on dvd. In opera productions, the director gets to change the sets and design. In re-releases of movies on DVD, they should consider new scores for certain movies. This has been done with MAJOR DUNDEE. And with TOUCH OF EVIL re-release, the original Mancini score(that I like) was taken out.

    Optional scores, yes, good idea.

    Ida Lupino’s HITCH-HIKER – seen it couple of times now, great!

  261. @Pat Hannagan
    The rule of HBD thumb is that all the Irish are stupid ergo if an Irishman did something clever then he/she is obviously not Irish and if they are then it wasn't clever.

  262. @Anonymous
    Yes, but that was true in 1776, and that revolution succeeded. Not everyone has to support a revolution. You need for a few percent to be willing to fight and a somewhat larger base to quietly support them and a substantial proportion of the population to not really care that much either way but just fear the revolutionaries as much as the state. Then by denying the state of the credible monopoly of violence, you make things dangerous enough for ardent supporters to start fleeing. People start keeping their mouths shut and not seeing some things, and the organs of the State start taking casualties. It gets expensive and brutal.

    Still, the generals never surrender. But at some point, the accountants do. Shortly thereafter, a treaty is signed, the revolutionaries have a mopping up, and then a serious party.

    We are not there yet. There is a lot more ruin in this nation, and the beer and sportsball probably has another generation to go. I’ll be ashes by then.

    I’ve been considering going in 1/1000th with some people looking to colonize the largest affordable deserted island available.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    I’ve been considering going in 1/1000th with some people looking to colonize the largest affordable deserted island available.

    Devon Island in the Canadian Arctic is the world's largest uninhabited island at more than 21,000 square miles. Somehow I doubt the government would be willing to sell, unfortunately, and considering it's too cold and windswept even for the Inuit I'd have to say the development potential is very limited.

    Google shows that the largest uninhabited island currently on the market is 77 square mile Guafo Island off the coast of southern Chile. The asking price is $20 million USD, and it's certainly suitable for development.
  263. @Cagey Beast
    Yes I think that's what motivates almost all of it. There's also the Irish side of it. Contemporary, official Irishness requires one to claim postcolonial, Third World status. The modern Irish want to be Swedes when it comes to their their globohomo, lifestyle-liberalism and Africans when it comes to their platinum card victim status. Claiming Edmund Burke or the Duke of Wellington as one of their own doesn't help with either narrative. It's the "no true Scotsman" game but with Irishness.

    “Irish” generally refers to native Irish Catholics, not Anglo-Irish Protestant settlers and their descendants, most of whom went back to Britain after Irish independence.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Burke is a common Irish cCatholic name and Edmund Burke was a descendant of Catholics who made good and then converted to Protestantism. The Duke of Wellington was Anglo-Irish.
  264. @nebulafox
    >The scene where he murders German POW’s was gratuitous and pornographic.

    If prisoner murder is too uncomfortable for you handle, I would strongly advise never reading a book about the Eastern Front or the Pacific Theater of that same war.

    On a more relevant note, it is a bit of a sign of Hollywood's intellectual bankruptcy that they can't think of anything new to make historically-oriented movies about. But you have to admit, the Nazis make really good villains. Not just because they were evil, but because of the style and sheek.

    The two captured German soldiers briefly in a flashback in “The Irishman” are portrayed as victims.

  265. @Dennis Dale
    No. It's actually a really good idea. It's not that the Irish aren't funny (though that might certainly be true; sometimes I think they are in fact gloomy, when I recall a childhood friend's ferocious brogue-inflected chain-smoking mother, or the brooding, fatalistic mother in Angela's Ashes) but that the sensibilities are so different. Irish humor tends to be dark, as far as I can see.

    Imagine Joan Rivers (who I never found funny myself) doing her rapid-fire, glib irreverence bit in a Joyce-ian Irish Catholic family. Or maybe not. Joan getting repeated slaps to the head for making fun of Catholic practices might get old after a while.

    What was Andrew Breitbart’s background?

    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    Jewish, l always assumed.
    , @Bugg
    Believe he was adopted by a Jewish couple. Genetically, not clear if he knew. He died right before 23andme and the like became popular.
    , @Brutusale
    Breitbart was adopted when he was 3 weeks old. Irish biological parents and Jewish (mother a convert) adoptive parents.
  266. @ScarletNumber

    I was surprised to find that not only is [Shalhoub] Arab Christian
     
    He played a passable Italian on Wings, as well. Between Emmys and Tonys, he has won six of them for acting. I enjoyed him in Vision Quest, a criminally underrated movie.

    Tony Shalhoub should have been in every Coen Brothers movie. I think he’s only been in two.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Yes, and they were both period pieces, coincidentally enough.
  267. @FPD72
    What role did Tony play in Vision Quest? I’ve seen it a couple of times and don’t remember him.

    I certainly agree that it was an underrated movie. One of my sons wrestled in high school and college and the movie did a great job of capturing the sacrifice and work ethic required by the sport.

    That’s because I’m dumb. I meant Galaxy Quest.

  268. @Steve Sailer
    Are there any old movies that are well-known to be bogged down by a bad score? In general, people were pretty good at composing orchestral music in 1939.

    I could imagine some noir film that would be improved with Nine Inch Nails score, but I can't think of any offhand.

    I could see colorizing some black and white comedies, such as "Some Like It Hot," which was originally planned to be shot in color, but the makeup on Lemmon and Curtis look terrible in color.

    Are there any old movies that are well-known to be bogged down by a bad score?

    I got a drugstore dollar-bin copy of Birth of a Nation, which is in the public domain and anyone can do whatever he wants to it.

    This version was unwatchable, because the opening soundtrack was Grieg’s Holberg Suite, and visions of fjords and drunken Danes on haystacks kept intruding.

  269. @Glaivester
    On Monk, his father was played by a Mizrahi Jew (Dan Hedaya).

    And his brother was played by an Italian, John Tuturro, who played a Jew in Quiz Show.

  270. @Steve Sailer
    Tony Shalhoub should have been in every Coen Brothers movie. I think he's only been in two.

    Yes, and they were both period pieces, coincidentally enough.

  271. @Anon
    "Irish" generally refers to native Irish Catholics, not Anglo-Irish Protestant settlers and their descendants, most of whom went back to Britain after Irish independence.

    Burke is a common Irish cCatholic name and Edmund Burke was a descendant of Catholics who made good and then converted to Protestantism. The Duke of Wellington was Anglo-Irish.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    The Duke of Wellington was Anglo-Irish.

    True but then so were so many of the United Irishmen of his day.
  272. @Cortes
    The slapping could never get old. Think: Blues Brothers and The Penguin.

    Only funny joke in that mess

  273. @Steve Sailer
    What was Andrew Breitbart's background?

    Jewish, l always assumed.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Dennis Dale:

    I believe that Breitbart's birth parents were not Jewish although he was raised Jewish.
  274. Burke is a common Irish Catholic name, and Edmund Burke was a descendant of Catholics who made good and then converted to Protestantism. The Duke of Wellington was Anglo-Irish.

  275. @ScarletNumber
    Speaking of Johnny, he correctly figured out that while Joan could guest host for him one day a week, she wasn't likable to be on TV every night.

    Being good at doing 5 talk shows a week is a pretty rare talent.

  276. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:

    I’d rather watch the alternative story: a switched-at-birth Joan Rivers grows up Irish.

    That explains THE GRADUATE. Benjamin Braddock was really adopted.

    Steve Martin did a pretty funny take on white kids raised by blacks. It wasn’t exactly Tarzan but..

    I recall watching a movie long ago called REVOLT OF JOB. I think it was about a goy boy raised by Jews who later get hauled away by Nazis. It’s been so long.

  277. @Dave Pinsen
    She really was in peak form until the end, and would probably have still been going strong today if it weren't for the medical malpractice that killed her.

    Right. Joan Rivers in her early 80s was making a huge amount of money touring right up to the day she died. There’s a documentary about her shot a year or two before her death and she was going almost as strong as ever. I’m sure she made more money off stand-up than other woman in history.

  278. @Dennis Dale
    Jewish, l always assumed.

    Dennis Dale:

    I believe that Breitbart’s birth parents were not Jewish although he was raised Jewish.

  279. @Jane Plain
    Google is your friend.

    Not to mention, a basic reading primer.

    I use DuckDuckGo and BRAVE myself. It certainly helps with ads and cookie trackers.

  280. Anonymous[180] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Are there any old movies that are well-known to be bogged down by a bad score? In general, people were pretty good at composing orchestral music in 1939.

    I could imagine some noir film that would be improved with Nine Inch Nails score, but I can't think of any offhand.

    I could see colorizing some black and white comedies, such as "Some Like It Hot," which was originally planned to be shot in color, but the makeup on Lemmon and Curtis look terrible in color.

    good at composing orchestral music in 1939

    Orchestral music is too heavy for most movies. Who needs all those instruments and all that sound in a scene with a character or two? Also, even in big scenes, they laid it on too thick. If the music was outstanding, it worked. If it was the conventional formula conveying the simplest emotions, it was like words put in bold letters with lots of apostrophe.

    HIGH NOON used music in an original way in the opening scene, one that might have inspired APOCALYPSE NOW.

    But rest of the movie has that Too Muchness. The shootout would be much better without every moment being punctuated with music telling us how we should feel. It was as if Hollywood felt that unless the music constantly charged people’s emotions, they might grow bored and lose interest.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
  281. @miss marple
    I've been considering going in 1/1000th with some people looking to colonize the largest affordable deserted island available.

    I’ve been considering going in 1/1000th with some people looking to colonize the largest affordable deserted island available.

    Devon Island in the Canadian Arctic is the world’s largest uninhabited island at more than 21,000 square miles. Somehow I doubt the government would be willing to sell, unfortunately, and considering it’s too cold and windswept even for the Inuit I’d have to say the development potential is very limited.

    Google shows that the largest uninhabited island currently on the market is 77 square mile Guafo Island off the coast of southern Chile. The asking price is $20 million USD, and it’s certainly suitable for development.

  282. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Are there any old movies that are well-known to be bogged down by a bad score? In general, people were pretty good at composing orchestral music in 1939.

    I could imagine some noir film that would be improved with Nine Inch Nails score, but I can't think of any offhand.

    I could see colorizing some black and white comedies, such as "Some Like It Hot," which was originally planned to be shot in color, but the makeup on Lemmon and Curtis look terrible in color.

    I could imagine some noir film that would be improved with Nine Inch Nails score, but I can’t think of any offhand.

    For noir, a light jazzy score or dissonant modernist score might work best.

    Worst example of score alteration was probably the 80s release of METROPOLIS. I like Benatar, but this is ridiculous.

    Still, changing musical score for silents is fair game since most silents didn’t come with a set score.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    For the rerelease of the silent "Napoleon" in the 1980s, Francis Ford Coppola's dad composed a new score of neo-Beethoven classical music. Carmine Coppola might be the only guy in the last 200 years to have the self-assurance to compose in the style of Beethoven.
  283. @Anonymous

    I could imagine some noir film that would be improved with Nine Inch Nails score, but I can’t think of any offhand.
     
    For noir, a light jazzy score or dissonant modernist score might work best.

    Worst example of score alteration was probably the 80s release of METROPOLIS. I like Benatar, but this is ridiculous.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7aPagGFYtc

    https://youtu.be/0JAHq-KFTAE?t=1m23s

    Still, changing musical score for silents is fair game since most silents didn't come with a set score.

    For the rerelease of the silent “Napoleon” in the 1980s, Francis Ford Coppola’s dad composed a new score of neo-Beethoven classical music. Carmine Coppola might be the only guy in the last 200 years to have the self-assurance to compose in the style of Beethoven.

    • LOL: Dave Pinsen
  284. @Steve Sailer
    What was Andrew Breitbart's background?

    Believe he was adopted by a Jewish couple. Genetically, not clear if he knew. He died right before 23andme and the like became popular.

  285. @ScarletNumber

    I was surprised to find that not only is [Shalhoub] Arab Christian
     
    He played a passable Italian on Wings, as well. Between Emmys and Tonys, he has won six of them for acting. I enjoyed him in Vision Quest, a criminally underrated movie.

    I think you mean this one, a pretty funny movie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_Quest

  286. @Lurker
    A lot of comedians claim they got their start using their comedic talents to avoid getting bullied at school. But recently, thinking back to school, I have begun to suspect that some of them were actually the school bullies themselves.

    One of the best episodes of “30 Rock” has Tina Fey going to her small-town high school reunion. She recalls having been a nerd who was bullied in high school and wants to flaunt it to everyone that she made it big in New York City. She meets with a cool reception upon her arrival and eventually learns that to her classmates, she, with her cutting sarcasm, was the bully.

  287. @Reg Cæsar

    Like a lot of funny men (and women, not that there are many truly funny women) he was a miserable human being in real life.
     
    His mother was a witch, or at least a witch's teat, so much so that he skipped her funeral. Freud would have been a natural guest had he lived long enough.

    His mother was a witch, or at least a witch’s teat, so much so that he skipped her funeral.

    It was well known at the time that Carson never went to funerals. I recall him acknowledging that.

  288. @Steve Sailer
    What was Andrew Breitbart's background?

    Breitbart was adopted when he was 3 weeks old. Irish biological parents and Jewish (mother a convert) adoptive parents.

  289. @Anonymous

    I’d rather watch the alternative story: a switched-at-birth Joan Rivers grows up Irish.
     
    I dunno. John Wayne or James Cagney raised as a Jew(and maybe working as ACLU lawyer) sounds hilarious.

    Like this?

  290. @njguy73

    Mrs Maisels dad was a Columbia math professor and they lived in an apartment that would be the envy of a hedge fund guy.

     

    My New York relatives explained to me that the dad didn't own the apartment. Columbia did. He rented from them. Nothing else would have made sense.

    Columbia did (does) indeed own some apartment buildings on Morningside Heights near the campus. In the days when I was familiar with them (early ’80s) their prewar glory had faded – the oriental rugs in the lobby were threadbare, the elevators creaked, but some of the apartments were quite large. But maybe in the ’50s they were still in top shape. Even if Prof. Maisels had a low rent Columbia apartment, in the show the thing was still decorated to the max – just the furniture and fixin’s budget would have bankrupted a Columbia prof. who in those days made bubkes and who would have probably eaten dinner on a folding card table, not in baronial splendor as depicted on the show.

    • Replies: @Clive Beaconsfield
    They retcon this in the most recent season by explaining the wife is an oil heiress from Oklahoma with a trust fund.
  291. @Bumpkin

    Yet he isn’t famous.
     
    Is she? I guess she's B-list and he's C-list, both would be known to certain crowds.

    It is generally accepted that he was the brains behind Amy Schumer’s rise to fame.
     
    Well, him and every other comic, as she's a notorious plagiarizer:

    https://youtu.be/4eDxjxVl8S0

    Once she got going she dumped him, then the general public figured out that she wasn’t all that funny.
     
    A rumor I saw online is that he's gay and she was his beard. Maybe they just didn't feel the need for that anymore.

    Then she put on weight and we didn’t even want to look at her anymore.
     
    Umm, when was she ever not fat?

    Is [Amy famous]? I guess she’s B-list. When was she ever not fat?

    You seem to have a personal dislike of her, which I understand. I am talking about fame. She has hosted Saturday Night Live twice and starred in Trainwreck, a $141 million dollar movie.

    About 5 years ago she was at the height of her fame. She wasn’t fat then, nor was she leading up to that point. She has now given up, but don’t pretend the past didn’t happen.

    • Replies: @Bumpkin

    You seem to have a personal dislike of her, which I understand.
     
    No, I don't really pay attention to her. There was a phase when the media was really pushing her, only reason I ever heard of her and found her moderately amusing.

    I am talking about fame. She has hosted Saturday Night Live twice and starred in Trainwreck, a $141 million dollar movie.
     
    And I granted that she's more famous, but Jeselnik is also known as the most cutting comic from the Comedy Central roasts:

    https://youtu.be/RyAdDTe22R0

    There's a lot of different kinds of famous on the Internet these days, just saying he's done well too, with a couple Netflix specials and the like.

    About 5 years ago she was at the height of her fame. She wasn’t fat then, nor was she leading up to that point. She has now given up, but don’t pretend the past didn’t happen.
     
    Not fat then?

    https://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/amy-schumer-at-2014-variety-breakthrough-of-the-year-awards-in-las-vegas_1.jpg

    I'll grant that she's packed more on since- and let me note that I like a woman with some curves, so not complaining about this pic- just never saw this mythical thin Amy Schumer.
  292. @Steve Sailer
    "Curb Your Enthusiasm" includes a (fictional) "Seinfeld" reunion in which Larry David insults Jason Alexander, who walks off the set, so Larry steps in to prove he could have played George (i.e., Larry).

    Nope.

    But he was able to play Larry David on Curb Your Enthusiasm.

    Speaking of non-actors, I once heard Larry David explain that they had once actually convinced Steinbrenner to actually appear on the show as himself, but he turned out to be so stiff and wooden as an actor that they couldn’t use it.

  293. @Johann Ricke

    If you want to read stuff into Jefferson’s Declaration that isn’t there, that’s of course your right, but don’t expect others to find it binding. At the time he wrote it, “America” was a bunch of white people, primarily from the British Isles (and their slaves, whose opinions and wants weren’t relevant). It was written to other white people (primarily IN the British Isles). This tendency for Jews, Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, subcontinentals, moslems, whoever, to show up a century or two later and decide it was written with them in mind is bizarre and delusional.
     
    Irredentist purism is an interesting subject for academic discussion. In real life, upsetting the apple cart may require civil war and oceans of blood, because the citizenry currently includes all these other people, and they're not giving up what they consider to be their right to have their say on the direction of the country unless they are somehow all killed or deported. A country that has issues with a few thousand friendly dead from a war in which foreigners came here and killed 3000 people in the two most important cities in the nation, is not going to be up for a civil war that involves millions of dead, or more.

    Be quiet. Nobody said anything about a civil war. I was correcting Jack on his “shining light on New Jerusalem, America was founded for the Jews” nonsense.

    they’re not giving up what they consider to be their right to have their say on the direction of the country unless they are somehow all killed or deported.

    I assume you are not referring to the people that actually have that right, but to the people that came later.

    Stick to the agree/disagree button. And get an American name if you’re going to comment on American issues.

    Agree: William “Billy” Badwhite

    Disagree: Johann “John” Ricke

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    I grew up with people with surnames like Ricke who had been in America at least 4 generations; usually more like 5 or 6. I suspect that you have also run into a few of these.
  294. @Anon
    If the only reference you have to go by is the attorney he fired for stealing from him, you probably don’t have a lot to go on. Johnny ended their relationship abruptly, but he could have turned it into front page news. He let the attorney off the hook, to carry on without him, instead of ruining him forever. I’d say that was pretty nice of him. Not the act of a miserable person. Miserable people like to spread it around.

    According to Johnny, his mother was quite a piece of work. Probably made him sensitive to shitheads within his ranks. As far as the drinking, about everyone was drinking in the television industry at that time. People didn’t care if you were an alcoholic. You could show up to work drunk every day, if you wanted. All they cared about was if you were a functional alcoholic. If you could remember your lines, hit your cues, show up on time, while drunk, it was all good enough.

    And finally, I know you have no way of knowing this, and never will but, if you have over $100 million dollars in the bank, it’s impossible to be what you call miserable. You might get frustrated, annoyed, bored. But miserable? No. That’s a middle-class/poor persons thing. Stay in your own lane, and don’t judge rich people. You just look ridiculous.

    Miserable and miserly have the same root and some of the most miserly people I know are rich. In fact when it comes to being miserly, it helps to be rich. Also some of the most miserable people I know are rich. I guess it depends on how you define miserable – if you define it to mean lacking in material comforts, then it’s impossible to be rich and miserable, but most Americans who are middle class and above have at least adequate material comforts.

    The reason some rich people are miserable has nothing to do with that. If rich people were never miserable, then why do they kill themselves? The suicide rate of the top decile is lower than the rate of the lowest decile, so FEWER rich people are miserable or at least so miserable that they kill themselves, but it’s not zero. If it was truly impossible to be miserable if you are rich, it would be zero or close to it. I think you are either defining misery in an unduly narrow way or underestimating the benefits of wealth in buying happiness.

    As for Carson, Bushkin is not the sole source. The fact that Carson went thru 4 wives and was not close to his sons may give you a clue. His coldness off screen was amply documented and after his show went off the air he became something of a hermit.

    Bushkin BTW was able to clear his name and received a $17 million jury award against Carson.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    As for Carson, Bushkin is not the sole source. The fact that Carson went thru 4 wives and was not close to his sons may give you a clue. His coldness off screen was amply documented and after his show went off the air he became something of a hermit.

    His 2d wife was cheating on him and his 3d was comically self-indulgent, manifest in her attorney's accounting of her monthly 'living expenses'. She also initiated proceedings against him before taking him for a lump sum of $27 million. BTW, the 2d and 3d wife each had one other divorce under their belt.

    What was notable about his sons was not that they 'weren't close' to their father, but that they'd lived such truncated lives. The three of them produced between them one child, and that youngster was the issue of a passing tryst. At one point in their 30s, all three were dependent on their father for jobs and income. One brother was a golf pro at one point. References in print to the other two refer to occupations which generally do not pay the bills.
    , @Dissident

    If it was truly impossible to be miserable if you are rich, it would be zero or close to it. I think you are either defining misery in an unduly narrow way or underestimating the benefits of wealth in buying happiness.
     
    I think you meant to write overestimating.

    I agree with what you wrote about wealth not equaling happiness. And I found the naivety of the individual you were replying-to rather appalling. I hope he's at least still relatively young.

  295. @R.G. Camara
    Rivers used to get angry when she was compared with Don Rickles, who was another comedian from her generation who was still doing stand-up shows.

    Why? Simple. Don was doing the same act he'd done for 30 years, while Rivers constantly updated hers. So she was out there sweating herself and trying out new material while Don was just playing the hits. She didn't hate Don (she made it clear she loved him), but the comparison made her upset just for the differences.

    Except Rickles never “did the same act”. The reason most comedians were in awe of him was that he didn’t do material, he just got up on stage and riffed and “did Don Rickles” for however long he needed to…

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Rickles did the same thing BUT he always made it seem fresh because his brand of irreverence was always a bit startling in a society that is nervous about offending different groups.
  296. @Sol
    Her character Pat has been memory-holed.

    Not anymore: I saw it referenced in another promo for the show last night (the middle-aged lesbian who looks like Drew Carey tells a young suitor about the Pat character in a bar and Julia Sweeney happens to be sitting nearby).

    • Replies: @Sol
    Interesting. I would have thought the character would be too problematic but maybe the showrunners aren't afraid of SJW reaction.
  297. @miss marple
    Don't know about the others but the Irish are funny generally as a cover up for forgetting what they were saying due to inebriation. This is also why they're prone to making up cutesy names for people whose names slip their mind at the moment.

    Don’t know about the others but the Irish are funny generally as a cover up for forgetting what they were saying due to inebriation.

    Perhaps, but I’ve noticed many (most) sober Irish women I know are masters of ironic humor.

  298. Anonymous[483] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Updating scores is a good idea. They could bring back some well-preserved silent movies too that way.

    Updating scores is a good idea. They could bring back some well-preserved silent movies too that way.

    Of course, the ‘rediscovery’ of silence was key to better use of sound/music.

    Aptly, the opening song of THE GRADUATE was the “Sound of Silence”. Nichols used music only when necessary to convey mood. There are moments of silence as when Elaine discovers Ben had an affair with her mother. An earlier Hollywood movie would have hammered us with music = “Oh My God!!!!”. The music in THE GRADUATE wasn’t used at all times ordering us to LOOK, FEEL, LAUGH, CRY. Had the film been made even 10 yrs earlier, it could have been ruined with Too Much Music. Same year, IN COLD BLOOD also used music far more subtly than in earlier works.
    And WILD BUNCH that came out 2 yrs later was a different kind of Western not only its greater realism and violence but a more strategic and supportive use of music. If Old Westerns poured on the musical sauce heavy all over all the images, Jerry Fielding flavored with just the right amount of spices. It was interwoven with the work than pasted upon it.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I remember your comment comparing The Graduate to 2001, which also used silence (or, at least the absence of dialogue and music), in most of the Dawn of Man scenes, and the scenes in space with Poole replacing the AE-35 unit and then Bowman going to recover Poole’s body.
  299. @jimbo
    Except Rickles never "did the same act". The reason most comedians were in awe of him was that he didn't do material, he just got up on stage and riffed and "did Don Rickles" for however long he needed to...

    Rickles did the same thing BUT he always made it seem fresh because his brand of irreverence was always a bit startling in a society that is nervous about offending different groups.

  300. @Altai
    OT: Has Steve seen this?

    https://twitter.com/LokiJulianus/status/1203478390499659777

    Adam Schiff's son wearing a Mossad t-shirt! (And now I have to wonder if it's official merchandise) In a posed photograph that Adam Schiff chose to post to his congressional Facebook and Instagram accounts!

    The top Instagram comment is amazing:


    I particularly like your sons Mossad t-shirt, Adam. Happy Father's Day to you and your Dad. You are a beacon of light to me and millions of other Americans who want and need a champion in Washington, D.C. to fight a form of demagoguery and authoritarianism unprecedented in our history. Thank you for everything you do and have done.
     
    We're reaching self-awareness levels that shouldn't be possible.

    http://archive.is/ejc1u

    Even I got a Mossad tee, it’s no big deal. Vendors sell them wherever tourists congregate. I was hoping that using it on social occasions could be a conversation starter (or quarrels, I love quarreling while drunk), but it is mostly ignored. So, sorry Adam Schiffs son — Mossad get no respect.

  301. @Hibernian
    Burke is a common Irish cCatholic name and Edmund Burke was a descendant of Catholics who made good and then converted to Protestantism. The Duke of Wellington was Anglo-Irish.

    The Duke of Wellington was Anglo-Irish.

    True but then so were so many of the United Irishmen of his day.

  302. @Jack D

    He could be talking about the Andaman Islands, and someone would bring up Jews.
     
    The Andaman Islands? Did you know that there are only 3 billionaires in the Andaman Islands and 5 of the 3 are Jewish.

    🤣

  303. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    E. Digby Baltzell, who coined the term
     
    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/books/review/Gray-t.html

    Correction: October 18, 2009
    A review on Sept. 27 about “Cheerful Money: Me, My Family, and the Last Days of Wasp Splendor,” by Tad Friend, misstated the sociologist E. Digby Baltzell’s connection with the term White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Though he popularized both the expression and its acronym, WASP, in his 1964 book “The Protestant Establishment,” he did not coin either one.

     

    Thanks. I didn’t know that.

    I wonder who invented it.

    But anyway, Baltzell is essential reading.

  304. @Known Fact
    Sounds like How to Marry a Millionaire, a Marilyn Monroe comedy turned into a TV series with the very young Barbara Eden

    It’s nothing like that.

    The Best of Everything was actually pretty good.

    It featured a lovely young Hope Lange and Stephen Boyd (the chariot guy in Ben Hur) at his handsomest.

    The only false note was Joan Crawford hamming it up as Joan Crawford in a part for a woman 20 years younger. Parts of it were actually filmed in Manhattan, and one series of scenes was filmed in a housing project on the LES when such places were populated by working class whites, now extinct in Manhattan.

  305. @Anonymous
    I am convinced increasingly from his posts recently that Steve finally did his 23 and me and it says he’s half Irish, half Ashkenazi.

    I am convinced increasingly from his posts recently that Steve finally did his 23 and me and it says he’s half Irish, half Ashkenazi.

    I’m reasonably certain that Steve Sailer is not stupid enough to entrust his genetic material to a firm like 23andme (or any other firm, to be frank).

    Let’s be really very clear on this: as soon as they can get away with it, insurers will obtain mandatory access to these databases.

    They’ll wait until the databases are sufficiently large to be worthwhile, because once they buy the legislation to force access, nobody new will sign up.

    For now, Insurers obtain the data clandestinely, with or without the permission of the firm.

    A group of people that I know were approached some time ago, to examine the feasibility of doing so for 3 firms. As expected, it’s entirely feasible because – like all medium-sized enterprises – their back-end was (and I presume still is) badly-maintained.

    .

    On the second bit… one thing that has interested me is that anecdotally, it seems that people who discover some weak Red Sea Pedestrian connection tend to get all excited about it.

    My anecdote collection is small-N (N=4) and dated (T = 1995-1997) but all 4 individuals became weirdly judeophile after finding out that their great-whoever was a member of a primitive genital-mutilation cult.[1]

    One of them started referring to himself as ‘part-Jewish’, having spent the prior semester ridiculing a mutual friend who had converted to Catholicism at the behest of his fiancée[2].

    I should point out that these anecdotes came about as a result of the usual process BI (before Internet) – i.e., some spinster aunt getting into ‘family tree’ research – rather than the voluntary donation of genetic material to data-collators.

    [1] Apparently I’m the odd one out, because I am fairly certain having a Red Sea Pedestrian in my lineage would not interest me one way or the other.

    I have some basis for that certainty: one of my ancestors was a pirate whose career ended abruptly when he was captured and keelhauled, and yet that vignette doesn’t make me want to buy a parrot or an eyepatch (although I do like to say “YEarrrrrgh, avast, me maties“).

    [2] I had no in-principle objection to ridiculing the would-be convert: in fact I participated quite actively. After all, if his ‘intended’ was that tightly bound to something that doctrinaire, then the correct advice was (and remains) to ‘unintend’ her, stat. To their mutual credit, the marriage lasted almost 20 years and ended relatively amicably.

  306. @ScarletNumber

    Is [Amy famous]? I guess she’s B-list. When was she ever not fat?
     
    You seem to have a personal dislike of her, which I understand. I am talking about fame. She has hosted Saturday Night Live twice and starred in Trainwreck, a $141 million dollar movie.

    About 5 years ago she was at the height of her fame. She wasn't fat then, nor was she leading up to that point. She has now given up, but don't pretend the past didn't happen.

    You seem to have a personal dislike of her, which I understand.

    No, I don’t really pay attention to her. There was a phase when the media was really pushing her, only reason I ever heard of her and found her moderately amusing.

    I am talking about fame. She has hosted Saturday Night Live twice and starred in Trainwreck, a $141 million dollar movie.

    And I granted that she’s more famous, but Jeselnik is also known as the most cutting comic from the Comedy Central roasts:

    There’s a lot of different kinds of famous on the Internet these days, just saying he’s done well too, with a couple Netflix specials and the like.

    About 5 years ago she was at the height of her fame. She wasn’t fat then, nor was she leading up to that point. She has now given up, but don’t pretend the past didn’t happen.

    Not fat then?

    I’ll grant that she’s packed more on since- and let me note that I like a woman with some curves, so not complaining about this pic- just never saw this mythical thin Amy Schumer.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Spheres, pears, and rolls of fat all have "curves", just not pleasing ones. Amy Schumer is a hog. She is not funny, she can't act, and brings nothing to the table I can discern.
  307. @Anonymous

    Updating scores is a good idea. They could bring back some well-preserved silent movies too that way.
     
    Of course, the 'rediscovery' of silence was key to better use of sound/music.

    Aptly, the opening song of THE GRADUATE was the "Sound of Silence". Nichols used music only when necessary to convey mood. There are moments of silence as when Elaine discovers Ben had an affair with her mother. An earlier Hollywood movie would have hammered us with music = "Oh My God!!!!". The music in THE GRADUATE wasn't used at all times ordering us to LOOK, FEEL, LAUGH, CRY. Had the film been made even 10 yrs earlier, it could have been ruined with Too Much Music. Same year, IN COLD BLOOD also used music far more subtly than in earlier works.
    And WILD BUNCH that came out 2 yrs later was a different kind of Western not only its greater realism and violence but a more strategic and supportive use of music. If Old Westerns poured on the musical sauce heavy all over all the images, Jerry Fielding flavored with just the right amount of spices. It was interwoven with the work than pasted upon it.

    I remember your comment comparing The Graduate to 2001, which also used silence (or, at least the absence of dialogue and music), in most of the Dawn of Man scenes, and the scenes in space with Poole replacing the AE-35 unit and then Bowman going to recover Poole’s body.

  308. @Dave Pinsen
    Not anymore: I saw it referenced in another promo for the show last night (the middle-aged lesbian who looks like Drew Carey tells a young suitor about the Pat character in a bar and Julia Sweeney happens to be sitting nearby).

    Interesting. I would have thought the character would be too problematic but maybe the showrunners aren’t afraid of SJW reaction.

  309. @Steve Sailer
    Wikipedia says:

    Will "Rogers was 9/32 (just over 1/4) Cherokee, with the remainder European American.[7]"

    He was a citizen of the Cherokee nation from birth, born in Cherokee territory before it became Oklahoma. When you’re wrong, you’re wrong, Steve. Quibbling over his ancestry will just get you to his Celtic roots. Don’t take it so hard. Everybody makes mistakes.

  310. @Jane Plain
    Google is your friend.

    Not to mention, a basic reading primer.

    Ha! Here I was, thinking that Google is the enemy of humanity.

  311. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Known Fact
    Sounds like How to Marry a Millionaire, a Marilyn Monroe comedy turned into a TV series with the very young Barbara Eden

    From the neck down, Monroe and Eden were very similar. They shared the same stand-in (a woman who fit the wardrobe exactly), one Evelyn Moriarty. In my opinion Eden had nicer boobs and a better curve of her bottom whereas Monroe did have better legs.

    Monroe had a more beautiful face and a lot more raw acting talent, but Eden had the better life and was more “normal”, though she did tragically lose her only child. Monroe died at 36, Eden is still alive at 88 and still pretty much compos mentis. I saw an interview of her a couple of years back where she seemed quite functional and able to get around better than some people in their sixties.

  312. @Bumpkin

    You seem to have a personal dislike of her, which I understand.
     
    No, I don't really pay attention to her. There was a phase when the media was really pushing her, only reason I ever heard of her and found her moderately amusing.

    I am talking about fame. She has hosted Saturday Night Live twice and starred in Trainwreck, a $141 million dollar movie.
     
    And I granted that she's more famous, but Jeselnik is also known as the most cutting comic from the Comedy Central roasts:

    https://youtu.be/RyAdDTe22R0

    There's a lot of different kinds of famous on the Internet these days, just saying he's done well too, with a couple Netflix specials and the like.

    About 5 years ago she was at the height of her fame. She wasn’t fat then, nor was she leading up to that point. She has now given up, but don’t pretend the past didn’t happen.
     
    Not fat then?

    https://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/amy-schumer-at-2014-variety-breakthrough-of-the-year-awards-in-las-vegas_1.jpg

    I'll grant that she's packed more on since- and let me note that I like a woman with some curves, so not complaining about this pic- just never saw this mythical thin Amy Schumer.

    Spheres, pears, and rolls of fat all have “curves”, just not pleasing ones. Amy Schumer is a hog. She is not funny, she can’t act, and brings nothing to the table I can discern.

    • Replies: @Bumpkin

    Spheres, pears, and rolls of fat all have “curves”, just not pleasing ones.
     
    Honestly, they all have their pleasures for me, as long as the rolls aren't too big. ;)

    Amy Schumer is a hog.
     
    No need to tell me, as that's what I pointed out to ScarletNumber myself.

    She is not funny, she can’t act, and brings nothing to the table I can discern.
     
    I can't say one way or other on most of that. All I've seen is some brief clips and talk show appearances when the media was really pushing her years back, and I passed on watching her show and movies based on that. I just found it strange that ScarletNumber was pushing a narrative that she used and dumped Jeselnik, when I often find him hilarious and getting pretty well-known these days. These clips of him on Conan are a comic masterpiece IMO:

    https://youtu.be/v0OmticDIIc

    https://youtu.be/JYqU43ZCM64
  313. @Jack D
    Miserable and miserly have the same root and some of the most miserly people I know are rich. In fact when it comes to being miserly, it helps to be rich. Also some of the most miserable people I know are rich. I guess it depends on how you define miserable - if you define it to mean lacking in material comforts, then it's impossible to be rich and miserable, but most Americans who are middle class and above have at least adequate material comforts.

    The reason some rich people are miserable has nothing to do with that. If rich people were never miserable, then why do they kill themselves? The suicide rate of the top decile is lower than the rate of the lowest decile, so FEWER rich people are miserable or at least so miserable that they kill themselves, but it's not zero. If it was truly impossible to be miserable if you are rich, it would be zero or close to it. I think you are either defining misery in an unduly narrow way or underestimating the benefits of wealth in buying happiness.

    As for Carson, Bushkin is not the sole source. The fact that Carson went thru 4 wives and was not close to his sons may give you a clue. His coldness off screen was amply documented and after his show went off the air he became something of a hermit.

    Bushkin BTW was able to clear his name and received a $17 million jury award against Carson.

    As for Carson, Bushkin is not the sole source. The fact that Carson went thru 4 wives and was not close to his sons may give you a clue. His coldness off screen was amply documented and after his show went off the air he became something of a hermit.

    His 2d wife was cheating on him and his 3d was comically self-indulgent, manifest in her attorney’s accounting of her monthly ‘living expenses’. She also initiated proceedings against him before taking him for a lump sum of $27 million. BTW, the 2d and 3d wife each had one other divorce under their belt.

    What was notable about his sons was not that they ‘weren’t close’ to their father, but that they’d lived such truncated lives. The three of them produced between them one child, and that youngster was the issue of a passing tryst. At one point in their 30s, all three were dependent on their father for jobs and income. One brother was a golf pro at one point. References in print to the other two refer to occupations which generally do not pay the bills.

  314. @Jack D
    Miserable and miserly have the same root and some of the most miserly people I know are rich. In fact when it comes to being miserly, it helps to be rich. Also some of the most miserable people I know are rich. I guess it depends on how you define miserable - if you define it to mean lacking in material comforts, then it's impossible to be rich and miserable, but most Americans who are middle class and above have at least adequate material comforts.

    The reason some rich people are miserable has nothing to do with that. If rich people were never miserable, then why do they kill themselves? The suicide rate of the top decile is lower than the rate of the lowest decile, so FEWER rich people are miserable or at least so miserable that they kill themselves, but it's not zero. If it was truly impossible to be miserable if you are rich, it would be zero or close to it. I think you are either defining misery in an unduly narrow way or underestimating the benefits of wealth in buying happiness.

    As for Carson, Bushkin is not the sole source. The fact that Carson went thru 4 wives and was not close to his sons may give you a clue. His coldness off screen was amply documented and after his show went off the air he became something of a hermit.

    Bushkin BTW was able to clear his name and received a $17 million jury award against Carson.

    If it was truly impossible to be miserable if you are rich, it would be zero or close to it. I think you are either defining misery in an unduly narrow way or underestimating the benefits of wealth in buying happiness.

    I think you meant to write overestimating.

    I agree with what you wrote about wealth not equaling happiness. And I found the naivety of the individual you were replying-to rather appalling. I hope he’s at least still relatively young.

  315. @Anonymous
    Spheres, pears, and rolls of fat all have "curves", just not pleasing ones. Amy Schumer is a hog. She is not funny, she can't act, and brings nothing to the table I can discern.

    Spheres, pears, and rolls of fat all have “curves”, just not pleasing ones.

    Honestly, they all have their pleasures for me, as long as the rolls aren’t too big. 😉

    Amy Schumer is a hog.

    No need to tell me, as that’s what I pointed out to ScarletNumber myself.

    She is not funny, she can’t act, and brings nothing to the table I can discern.

    I can’t say one way or other on most of that. All I’ve seen is some brief clips and talk show appearances when the media was really pushing her years back, and I passed on watching her show and movies based on that. I just found it strange that ScarletNumber was pushing a narrative that she used and dumped Jeselnik, when I often find him hilarious and getting pretty well-known these days. These clips of him on Conan are a comic masterpiece IMO:

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Amy Schumer's sketch comedy show was quite funny. Was Anthony Jeselnik behind it?
  316. @Bumpkin

    Spheres, pears, and rolls of fat all have “curves”, just not pleasing ones.
     
    Honestly, they all have their pleasures for me, as long as the rolls aren't too big. ;)

    Amy Schumer is a hog.
     
    No need to tell me, as that's what I pointed out to ScarletNumber myself.

    She is not funny, she can’t act, and brings nothing to the table I can discern.
     
    I can't say one way or other on most of that. All I've seen is some brief clips and talk show appearances when the media was really pushing her years back, and I passed on watching her show and movies based on that. I just found it strange that ScarletNumber was pushing a narrative that she used and dumped Jeselnik, when I often find him hilarious and getting pretty well-known these days. These clips of him on Conan are a comic masterpiece IMO:

    https://youtu.be/v0OmticDIIc

    https://youtu.be/JYqU43ZCM64

    Amy Schumer’s sketch comedy show was quite funny. Was Anthony Jeselnik behind it?

    • Replies: @Bumpkin
    No idea, never watched Schumer's TV show: all I know is that he's not listed as a writer for it on Wikipedia or IMDB, haven't heard anything else.
    , @ScarletNumber
    Both Amy's and Anthony's shows premiered in 2013, so they had different sets of writers.

    As for Inside Amy Schumer, the best thing they ever did was their parody of 12 Angry Men.

    By the way, she is a second cousin once removed from an iSteve favorite, the Senate Minority Leader.
  317. @Hibernian
    I knew the name was an Anglicized Celtic one; wasn't aware of the family's status in Ireland. I was in a general way aware that emigration to Maryland for at least some was an alternative to being reduced to the status of the landless peasantry in Ireland. Other alternatives were conversion to Protestantism and service in various countries, mostly Catholic, as a mercenary soldier. (The Flight of the Earls)

    Most of the O’Carrolls I have noticed who fled abroad served in France, but the most successful seem to have been members of a branch which ended up in Germany. Their descendants, the Barons von Hoenning O’Carroll, are firmly part of the upper nobility of Bavaria, having married an heiress of a great estate. The heir of that property went on to marry firstly a Princess Lobkowitz and secondly a Princess of Bavaria. He had eleven children by the first and five more by the second – the name is not in danger of dying out.

  318. @Steve Sailer
    Amy Schumer's sketch comedy show was quite funny. Was Anthony Jeselnik behind it?

    No idea, never watched Schumer’s TV show: all I know is that he’s not listed as a writer for it on Wikipedia or IMDB, haven’t heard anything else.

  319. @Jack D
    Discrimination against individuals for random reasons is completely different than systematic race or religious prejudice - the former is not even illegal, while the latter is.

    It’s ‘illegal’ because you can write a prohibition into a piece of statutory legislation, something difficult to do with problems that have no name. It’s not illegal consequent to the degree of misery it causes. Of course, having lawyers second-guessing your hiring and leasing decisions causes a certain amount irritation and disgust as well, just not the sort we’re supposed to take into account.

    About 35 years ago, I saw a piece of public opinion research on the black population. Among the questions: ‘have you ever been insulted because of your race’ and ‘have you ever been discriminated against’. The ‘yes’ answer, among a sample for whom the median year of birth would have been around 1943, was 59% to the former question and 40% to the latter. The black population actually has been persecuted within living memory, a persecution that was incorporated into public policy. Yet, discrete acts contra specific individuals were, even among that population, not daily fare.

    Now, in the town I grew up in ca. 1955, being Jewish counted against you in real estate transactions, established law firms wouldn’t hire you, certain clubs would blackball you if you applied, and some people wouldn’t have you as a guest in their homes. All that’s disagreeable. At the same time, those were what in our time we call ‘First World Problems’, and they arose not from any government policy but from a the opinions of a broad mass of people over who they’d prefer to have as a neighbor / business partner / companion. Andrew Greeley discovered a more benign manifestation of this a decade later among gentiles when his survey research revealed that for a comfortable majority of people, their three closest friends were Catholic or they were protestant. A jumble was atypical.

  320. @Steve Sailer
    Amy Schumer's sketch comedy show was quite funny. Was Anthony Jeselnik behind it?

    Both Amy’s and Anthony’s shows premiered in 2013, so they had different sets of writers.

    As for Inside Amy Schumer, the best thing they ever did was their parody of 12 Angry Men.

    By the way, she is a second cousin once removed from an iSteve favorite, the Senate Minority Leader.

  321. @Jack D
    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights - they all didn't mean what they said? Just words on paper?

    The Declaration, Constitution, the Bill of Rights

    Overrated.

  322. @William Badwhite
    Be quiet. Nobody said anything about a civil war. I was correcting Jack on his "shining light on New Jerusalem, America was founded for the Jews" nonsense.

    they’re not giving up what they consider to be their right to have their say on the direction of the country unless they are somehow all killed or deported.
     
    I assume you are not referring to the people that actually have that right, but to the people that came later.

    Stick to the agree/disagree button. And get an American name if you're going to comment on American issues.

    Agree: William "Billy" Badwhite

    Disagree: Johann "John" Ricke

    I grew up with people with surnames like Ricke who had been in America at least 4 generations; usually more like 5 or 6. I suspect that you have also run into a few of these.

  323. @Steve Sailer
    "Curb Your Enthusiasm" includes a (fictional) "Seinfeld" reunion in which Larry David insults Jason Alexander, who walks off the set, so Larry steps in to prove he could have played George (i.e., Larry).

    Nope.

    “Curb Your Enthusiasm” includes a (fictional) “Seinfeld” reunion

    A very patient group pieced together the putative reunion episode from Curb:

  324. @Jack D
    Columbia did (does) indeed own some apartment buildings on Morningside Heights near the campus. In the days when I was familiar with them (early '80s) their prewar glory had faded - the oriental rugs in the lobby were threadbare, the elevators creaked, but some of the apartments were quite large. But maybe in the '50s they were still in top shape. Even if Prof. Maisels had a low rent Columbia apartment, in the show the thing was still decorated to the max - just the furniture and fixin's budget would have bankrupted a Columbia prof. who in those days made bubkes and who would have probably eaten dinner on a folding card table, not in baronial splendor as depicted on the show.

    They retcon this in the most recent season by explaining the wife is an oil heiress from Oklahoma with a trust fund.

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