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The John Wayne Movie Stereotype of Tall Texans Was True
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From a researcher named John Parman:

I’ve always wondered whether cowboys from Texas really did tend to be tall, or whether somebody just made up the phrase “tall Texan” because it’s alliterative and catchy.

Here’s a graph showing height of WWII inductees by county. Solid red is 5′-10″ or taller, solid yellow is 5’7″ or smaller.

Apparently, in the 1940s, Texas men, outside of the Hispanic Rio Grande Valley, really were the most consistently tall in the U.S.

Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?

 
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  1. “Everything’s bigger in Texas.”

    • Replies: @theMann
    @Redneck farmer

    Just ask your wives.

    , @Mike Tre
    @Redneck farmer

    Give a goldfish a bigger pond, and you'll get a bigger goldfish.

    , @Schoolboy
    @Redneck farmer

    Texas rancher to Yankee-"It takes me all day to drive from one end of my ranch to the other."
    Yankee-"I used to have a truck like that."

    , @Haxo Angmark
    @Redneck farmer

    and don't forget John Wayne + Ella Raines in that classic western,

    "Tall in the Saddle".

    can't figure how that title got past the censors tho.

    , @Charon
    @Redneck farmer

    https://i.ibb.co/YRTFMMh/Capture-2021-10-18-17-50-55-2.png

  2. My pet theory is that cattle ranching selects for height. Cultures that rely heavily on cattle tend to be relatively tall, and Texas was settled in large part by cow people.

    I got this theory by observing the local Dutch dairymen where I live. They are huge. African cow people are also tall. I think it must make the job much easier. Cows can easily trample little people, who have a hard time seeing over them.

    • Agree: Old and Grumpy
    • Replies: @Yancey Ward
    @Bill P

    Or cattlemen have much better diets.

    Replies: @LP5

    , @Steve-O
    @Bill P

    The Dutch counties in NW Iowa and West Michigan are red.

    Texas was heavily German, was it not?

    Replies: @Michaeloh

    , @Charlotte
    @Bill P

    Perhaps there’s a synergistic effect with a high protein diet allowing maximum growth to genetic potential and an environment favoring tall men.

    Does anyone know if, when poor diet depresses the average height of a population, it tends to depress individual height equally (everyone loses a couple inches), or if people with the genetic potential to be quite tall lose more height? If the latter, it seems like diet could impact sexual selection for height over the long term by making it easier/harder to tell who has tall genes.

    , @Alice in Wonderland
    @Bill P

    Slightly skeptical here. Mexico is heavily a cattle culture. So, not sure about the correlation. More like coincidence.

    Replies: @Bill P

    , @Old and Grumpy
    @Bill P

    Tall and strong help in livestock farming. Compare that to something like mining. Height would be a liability. Nor if you were a tall man would you want to mine. Outdoor work would be more appealing. It also follows that tall men tend have tall children. One thing I realized while raising replacement heifers for our dairy farm, male genetics have a far bigger impact than females on the quality of replacement stock. And yes, meat and milk do make the person. There is a physical difference between those who are lactose tolerant, and those who are not.

    Replies: @Bill P, @Yngvar

    , @Lagertha
    @Bill P

    The people who emigrated to TX were Swiss, German, Hungarian, Czech, mostly (Czech Stop is my favorite fuel stop), - all taller than WASPS, or most people from the British isles, or other WASP parts of the world.

    Danes are the tallest. Finns are now, rivaling that! hahhahahaaaa! But, I would like Steve to talk about the Tartarians! hahhahaaa

    Scandinavians are the tallest, leanest, most muscular men, and the leanest, narrow-hipped, yet muscular women. To some extent, it is due to dairy. Children and young adults grow up with drinking whole milk, loving cheese and it becomes a staple in their diets as adults. Yogurt is yuge.

    Vitamin D will be the most talked about vitamin in just a few short months.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton

    , @Joe Paluka
    @Bill P

    People who drink lots of milk, eat lots of cheese and get lots of protein in their diets tend to be tall. Texas was also settled by a lot of Germans, who were tall people to begin with. If they took the average height of Texans now, they would be much much shorter due to all the Mexicans that have come in in the past 30-40 years.

  3. According to Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in Full Metal Jacket, only steers and queers come from Texas, so maybe them farm boys ain’t just drinking milk…

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
    @AndrewR

    Thought that was Lou Gosset in Officer and a Gentleman?

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @AndrewR

    "only steers and queers come from Texas"

    At boot camp I received a similar response from my CC after he asked where I was from: "Only fruits and nuts come from California." I answered sir yes sir then began a soliloquy on California's rich and diverse agricultural bounty. It turned out to be a golden afternoon at Cape May.

    Replies: @Trinity

    , @Currahee
    @AndrewR

    Dude, Louis Gossett, An Officer and a Gentleman; and it was Oklahoma to which he was referring.
    Geez!

  4. No immigrants or first generation immigrant kids from the tenements bringing down the average. Northeast had them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Jew
    @2BR

    I thought the same. But then why is Maine so darn short?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @epebble

  5. @Bill P
    My pet theory is that cattle ranching selects for height. Cultures that rely heavily on cattle tend to be relatively tall, and Texas was settled in large part by cow people.

    I got this theory by observing the local Dutch dairymen where I live. They are huge. African cow people are also tall. I think it must make the job much easier. Cows can easily trample little people, who have a hard time seeing over them.

    Replies: @Yancey Ward, @Steve-O, @Charlotte, @Alice in Wonderland, @Old and Grumpy, @Lagertha, @Joe Paluka

    Or cattlemen have much better diets.

    • Replies: @LP5
    @Yancey Ward


    Or cattlemen have much better diets.
     
    Cattle drives with cookie manning the chuck wagon, supplementing the beans, biscuits, corn bread and other grub with a tasty barbecue of any steers that broke a leg. Were the rest of the herd motivated by the sight or smell of dinner on the Chisholm trail?

    Modern cowboys have F-250s with coolers for those Lone Star longnecks, Shiner Bocks or similar brews. YTMV
  6. Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?

    And smoking Marlborough cigarettes.

    • Replies: @Del
    @JimB

    Marlboroughs were marketed to women. Marlboros and the Marlboro man did not show up until the 60s. Maybe Bull Durham.

  7. Anon[374] • Disclaimer says:

    When my family moved from the north to the south during my teenage years, I noticed that all of a sudden the average person was taller. I was no longer the tallest kid in my class.

    Farther south you get, the more Vitamin D exposure you have, which helps your height. Secondly, a good bone-building diet of milk and meat from your ranch or farm helps a lot. Having Northern European ancestry is also useful. I spent my childhood in the Rust Belt, and it was quite plain that the Eastern Europeans who migrated there were shorter than American Southerners.

    Southerners tend to run to a long, lanky type that is obviously Scotch-Irish. Scottish people used to be the tallest in Europe, although Continentals are now catching up because of better diet. Continentals didn’t used to drink milk past childhood, but they have changed their habits so they eat lots of yogurt these days.

    The shortest people I’ve seen recently are Central Americans. I’ve come across people from Honduras who are mind-bogglingly short, as in come-up-to-my-ribcage-pygmy-short, and I’m not sure if it’s lousy diet or Indian ancestry.

    Northeast cities were rickets territory in the late 1800s to first half of the 1900s. No sunlight in the slums, no milk in the diet for the kids.

    • Replies: @Savage Indifference
    @Anon

    "I’ve come across people from Honduras who are mind-bogglingly short ..."

    But very strong, with strong legs fantastically good at climbing trees and doing tree work. A crew of Central Americans once took down a senescent tallow tree (uuggh) for me, and the last thing to cut was the stump at the base, almost a couple feet across/ three feet high. The brawniest of the men - all my height or shorter - heaved that stump on his back and carried it to the trailer. I hated to see that. I felt that doing that way must surely shorten his working years.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Neil Templeton

  8. @Bill P
    My pet theory is that cattle ranching selects for height. Cultures that rely heavily on cattle tend to be relatively tall, and Texas was settled in large part by cow people.

    I got this theory by observing the local Dutch dairymen where I live. They are huge. African cow people are also tall. I think it must make the job much easier. Cows can easily trample little people, who have a hard time seeing over them.

    Replies: @Yancey Ward, @Steve-O, @Charlotte, @Alice in Wonderland, @Old and Grumpy, @Lagertha, @Joe Paluka

    The Dutch counties in NW Iowa and West Michigan are red.

    Texas was heavily German, was it not?

    • Replies: @Michaeloh
    @Steve-O

    “German country” is central texas, think austin up to San Antonio south, up to Houston to the east, including the Hill Country (Fredericksburg, Lukenbach) to the West and fading out somewhere to the north. They were farmers, craftsmen and merchants and even today you can notice the tidiness and orderliness of thier communities- especially in contrast to the high spanics and my people, the less orderly Scotch-Irish. The Czechs are also numerous in German country, but didn’t get there own “country” probably because to the Mexicans and the Scotch-Irish all central europeans looked alike.

    Replies: @Michaeloh

  9. What’s with St Lawrence County in N.Y., home to four colleges with basketball teams? And Duluth’s St Louis County? These are the largest by area in their states, are on the edge, and really stick out on a map.

    Indeed, St Louis is either the largest or second-largest east of the Mississippi, depending on whether you count water. St Lawrence is the largest county in the original 13— unless you count Maine, which has four larger, as once part of Massachusetts, which is fair. (Maine, Kentucky, West Virginia, and perhaps Tennessee, have enjoyed statehood since the beginning, albeit not their own.)

    St Louis County itself is rather tall:

    • Replies: @ANON
    @Reg Cæsar

    I imagine the white/blan/missing counties are just missing data for some reason, or for some reason there's less record of the data and not enough to give an average.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  10. Ironically, WWII hero Texan Audie Murphy was 5’5” tall.

    • Replies: @Escher
    @Anonymous

    https://celebvogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Eddie-Murphy.jpg

    Audie Murphy is from Texas?

    , @Prester John
    @Anonymous

    My cousin from Lubbock is 5' 8". And Duke Wayne was a tall Iowan.

  11. -German ancestry and a scarcity of Ellis Islanders.
    -High protein diet (lots of meat and milk).
    -Rural living is healthier than city living.

    Anecdotally, cattlemen are supposed to be pretty big guys.

    Let’s ask Big John.

  12. @Reg Cæsar
    What's with St Lawrence County in N.Y., home to four colleges with basketball teams? And Duluth's St Louis County? These are the largest by area in their states, are on the edge, and really stick out on a map.

    Indeed, St Louis is either the largest or second-largest east of the Mississippi, depending on whether you count water. St Lawrence is the largest county in the original 13-- unless you count Maine, which has four larger, as once part of Massachusetts, which is fair. (Maine, Kentucky, West Virginia, and perhaps Tennessee, have enjoyed statehood since the beginning, albeit not their own.)


    St Louis County itself is rather tall:


    https://www.usnews.com/news/healthiest-communities/img/counties/27137.png

    Replies: @ANON

    I imagine the white/blan/missing counties are just missing data for some reason, or for some reason there’s less record of the data and not enough to give an average.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @ANON


    I imagine the white/blan/missing counties are just missing data for some reason...
     
    You'd think that homes of universities such as St Lawrence, Clarkson, SUNY Potsdam, and Minnesota-Duluth would have been able to collect data on college-age men. All date to the 19th century.

    Replies: @RedBonnet1

  13. I’m from the middle of Texas descended from generations of farmers on one side and ranchers on the other. The farmer’s side – my mom’s side – are all around average. They are Czech/German . My mom is 5’5. My dad’s rancher side are all tall and thin, including the women. They are English mostly. One of my female cousins is about as tall as me and I’m 6’1. We used to say she should have been a model. My dad is 6’4. I’ve met tons of white Texans that have been here for generations and plenty that just got here or are from other states. In my observation long term white Texans really are tall people.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Bobby Jones


    My dad’s rancher side are all tall and thin, including the women.
     
    All I can say is- congratulations.
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Bobby Jones

    "In my observation long term white Texans really are tall people."

    And, based upon a couple years I spent in Callahan County whilst a boy, grim. Especially the women. The women from my father's side of the family were tallish, thin, and grim. The men were much more pleasant, and they all seemed to have guns -- hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols -- in their trucks.

    Replies: @rebel yell

  14. My pet theory is that cattle ranching selects for height.

    Cattle aren’t pets. (Usually.)

    Anyway, who asked you to horn in? Now we’ll be trampled by a stampede of similarly bovine comments. Still, your hypothesis is not udderly bull. It cud be true.

    Now, for something completely off-topic:

    She pulled herself from addiction by learning to code. Now this Kirkland software developer is leading a worker uprising at Apple

    She has the unfortunate name of Cher Scarlett.

    Report: Casey Martin has right leg amputated

    Why so many shootouts? Pretty simple answer, experts say.

    Four people were shot outside a high school football game in Mobile. Three people were shot in Minneapolis just walking around the neighborhood, two in South, one in North.

    • Replies: @guest007
    @Reg Cæsar

    Steve should add a corollary to his mass shooting algorithms. If there is a shooting on campus and a non-student is killed, then the shooting occurred at a black party.

    https://www.ktbs.com/news/second-shooting-occurs-at-grambling-state-university-homecoming-events-and-monday-classes-canceled/article_5793d8b6-2f63-11ec-80c0-53b31b063ed2.html

    Replies: @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

  15. @Bill P
    My pet theory is that cattle ranching selects for height. Cultures that rely heavily on cattle tend to be relatively tall, and Texas was settled in large part by cow people.

    I got this theory by observing the local Dutch dairymen where I live. They are huge. African cow people are also tall. I think it must make the job much easier. Cows can easily trample little people, who have a hard time seeing over them.

    Replies: @Yancey Ward, @Steve-O, @Charlotte, @Alice in Wonderland, @Old and Grumpy, @Lagertha, @Joe Paluka

    Perhaps there’s a synergistic effect with a high protein diet allowing maximum growth to genetic potential and an environment favoring tall men.

    Does anyone know if, when poor diet depresses the average height of a population, it tends to depress individual height equally (everyone loses a couple inches), or if people with the genetic potential to be quite tall lose more height? If the latter, it seems like diet could impact sexual selection for height over the long term by making it easier/harder to tell who has tall genes.

  16. They seem to be nourishing another stereotype ….

  17. No huge surprises here. Germanics–especially Germans on the farm–taller than more recent immigrants groups back east. And of course, Indians and Mexicans are not tall.

    The interesting thing that struck me is how well the Scots-Irish did in the piedmont/mountains of NC and upstate SC and on through other areas of the south. (But ho-hum in WV.) It can’t be driven by blacks as the effects dies away in very heavily black areas of the tidewater or the Delta region of Mississippi. This for guys who grew up during the depression in the relatively poor South.

    I think Texas whites are–traditionally–a combination of Southern whites–skewing more toward frontiersy Scots-Irish–whites, plus Germanics (e.g. Nimitz).

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    @AnotherDad


    Indians and Mexicans are not tall.
     
    Several northern plains tribes were remarkably tall even in historic times. Cheyenne, Crow, Blackfeet, Lakota, Assiniboine, etc. Montana today is probably taller than average, given the large numbers from Scandinavia and Germany, but the natives are not notably short.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    , @Anonymous
    @AnotherDad


    I think Texas whites are–traditionally–a combination of Southern whites–skewing more toward frontiersy Scots-Irish–whites, plus Germanics (e.g. Nimitz).

     

    Aren’t there a significant number of Irish Catholics in Texas?

    Replies: @theMann

    , @additionalMike
    @AnotherDad

    "And of course, Indians and Mexicans are not tall." Depends on the tribe. The pure-blood Indians I met from the Rez near Buffalo NY (Tuscarora, mebbe?) were really big people.

    Replies: @Trinity

    , @Rebel Roy
    @AnotherDad

    AnotherDad you forget that Whites who made/make up the South were/are Germanics.Southern people are Anglo-Saxon.Angles,Saxons and Jutes displaced the Celts in England.Our people(whats left of us)have the same racial makeup as people who came to America directly from Germany or Austria or Norway etc.Saying Scots/Irish when talking about those who colonized America doesn't mean Celts but Germanic peoples.We are tall because our great Viking and German ancestors were good stock.

    , @Matttt
    @AnotherDad

    There is a wide range in heights among Mexican men. Northern Mexicans are stereotypically tall, 6ft+, and you see quite a few Mexican-American men whose families have been in Texas for generations who are tall. Mexicans from the center of the country seem to top out at 5'7", so long as they are well-nourished. Mexicans from the south (e.g, Mayans) can be short - 5'3" or 5'4".

  18. Doesn’t matter how much beef or milk you drink, your height is determined ALMOST entirely by genetics. I often wondered IF certain exercises or activities would make someone taller. One would think that MAYBE IF someone were to start an activity like swimming as a youngster before puberty hit IF it might give someone a few extra inches in height. In regards to WWII enlistees, Texans and height. The most decorated soldier of that period was from Texas but he was far from being tall. Hell, he wasn’t even close to average in height and he wasn’t a Mexican but a gringo. He was Audie Murphy, all 5’5″ in height. Freddie Patek, best known for his time spent playing shortstop for the Kansas City Royals in the 1970s was also from Texas and was also short. Patek was one of the shortest guys to ever play in MLB IF not the shortest. “The Flea” aka Patek stood 5’4″ to 5’5″ depending on the source. Imagine Freddie Patek lined up next to the Washington Monument known as Frank Howard and guessing that both these men made their living in the same sport.

    I saw lots of HUGE people both in height and girth while living in Nebraska. I imagine Minnesota and the Upper Midwest would be full of huge people of Polish, Scandinavian or German descent. German genes, man, those Germans do have great genes. Yep, flyover country Whites probably make East Coast and West Coast hipsters look pretty small and weak. Hell, even Southerners make the Coast Elites look small and weak.

    • Disagree: Escher
    • Replies: @2BR
    @Trinity

    I once heard the Medal of Honor winner Jack Jacobs speak. He was about Audie Murphy’s height. He joked about his size, but also said, semi-seriously, that being small on the battlefield was a decided advantage in combat.

    Replies: @Trinity, @Odin

    , @Escher
    @Trinity

    There’s documented evidence of kids in Japan and Korea growing taller with each generation as nutrition levels improved, requiring changes in school desks to accommodate the bigger kids.

    , @Known Fact
    @Trinity

    At 6'0" I'm a full three inches or more taller than any man in my lineage, and my mother was tiny.

    BTW along with Fred Patek there was 5'5" outfielder Albie Pearson in the 50s and 60s. More relevantly, the great Jose Altuve is just listed at just 5'6"

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Bill Jones

    , @Ed Case
    @Trinity


    Doesn’t matter how much beef or milk you drink, your height is determined ALMOST entirely by genetics.
     
    Yes and no.
    If a child isn't introduced to meat early, he's not going to reach his genetic potential, whatever that is.

    My uncle is 6'6'', now 86, brought up on a dairy farm all he was fed as a baby was brains and minced meat.
    They ate butter and cream, but the idea of drinking milk was laughed at, that's what the pigs were fed.
    His 2 much younger brothers grew up in town drinking milk and eating bread and vegetables, they're both shortarses.
    , @TWS
    @Trinity

    My grandfather had very poor nutrition as a boy. His older brothers were a foot taller than he was. He suffered from several nutritional related conditions as a boy.

    His father was kicked in the chest by a steer and was unable to do much after that. Before that they owned a ranch and were wheat farmers.

    , @kaganovitch
    @Trinity

    Imagine Freddie Patek lined up next to the Washington Monument known as Frank Howard and guessing that both these men made their living in the same sport.

    Kind of like this picture but Patek was 4 inches shorter than Torreyes

    https://www.mlb.com/cut4/photos-aaron-judge-and-ronald-torreyes-swapped-jerseys-c227857488

  19. Moses Austin never got to see the promised land of Tejas, but his son Stephen F. got the job done by bringing in initially 300 families, who may have been selected for being good physical types, not so much so that they could work the land, as keep order in the sizable enslaved population that was essential to Austin’s plans for the development of Texas once the indigenous population had been massacred by the settlers.

    Stephen F. eventually fell out with the Mexican government over the issue of slavery, which the Mexican government wished to abolish pronto and which Steven felt was essential to the prosperity of Texas. (Sounds like a familiar story, huh?)

    Eventually he led a revolution which ended up with the founding of the independent slave state of Texas, which later joined the United Slave States.

    Since Texas had a lot of cattle, the kids probably had plenty of milk and grew up tall and strong with all that calcium for their growing bones.

    Although a lot of what he did would be defined as crimes against humanity by the standards of today, Stephen F. Austin still has public buildings, schools, and hotels named after him, as well as the capital city of Texas.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    @Jonathan Mason

    Expunge the names of the accursed Austin-named buildings and the accursed-named capital itself!

    Replies: @Michaeloh

    , @Ed Case
    @Jonathan Mason


    Since Texas had a lot of cattle, the kids probably had plenty of milk and grew up tall and strong with all that calcium for their growing bones.
     
    Milk drinking is a recent madness, during the times you are speaking of the calves got the milk on beef ranches and milk was fed to pigs on dairy farms.
    Calcium in milk isn't bioavailable to humans anyway, so it has no positive effect on growth, though it may have a negative effect.
  20. It’s the hat, folks. You gotta take the hat off. Underneath, they average 5’2″.

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Hoss looks like he's had a couple of belts. Maybe one big belt.

    , @Trinity
    @Buzz Mohawk

    "Hoss" was more than tall, he was big. I always hated Bonanza. Gawd, that show was so lame even by the standards back then. Everything about the scenery looked so fake and cheap. Liked Gunsmoke which was infinitely a much better show. Dan Blocker was even one episode, of course who didn't appear on Gunsmoke at one time or the other. Even saw good ole "Archie Bunker" on an episode and even "movie star" Charles Bronson. You never really realize how short Charles Bronson was until you saw him next to 6'7" James Arness. Speaking of height and Matt Dillon, I remember seeing the actor Matt Dillon in the Eighties at some bar and the kid was much shorter than his LISTED height of 6' or at least he appeared to be to me at the time. Maybe Matt was a late bloomer. hehe.

    Back to the fictional Matt Dillon, he made Blocker appear even more blockish in appearance. You would not have guessed Blocker was 6'4" next to Arness while Chuck Connors appeared just as tall and in some scenes even taller than Arness. IF Connors was 2" shorter than Arness it sure didn't appear to be the case in those scenes of Gunsmoke that I saw. Who knows about celebrity heights and how legit they are, probably just as phony as the rest of Hollywood. Hell, I never knew The Duke wore a rug until recently. And I would have never guessed Jack Lord of Hawaii Five-O was rocking a piece. I always thought his hair looked to good to be true and it was. haha.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Gary in Gramercy, @Brutusale

  21. @AnotherDad
    No huge surprises here. Germanics--especially Germans on the farm--taller than more recent immigrants groups back east. And of course, Indians and Mexicans are not tall.

    The interesting thing that struck me is how well the Scots-Irish did in the piedmont/mountains of NC and upstate SC and on through other areas of the south. (But ho-hum in WV.) It can't be driven by blacks as the effects dies away in very heavily black areas of the tidewater or the Delta region of Mississippi. This for guys who grew up during the depression in the relatively poor South.

    I think Texas whites are--traditionally--a combination of Southern whites--skewing more toward frontiersy Scots-Irish--whites, plus Germanics (e.g. Nimitz).

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Anonymous, @additionalMike, @Rebel Roy, @Matttt

    Indians and Mexicans are not tall.

    Several northern plains tribes were remarkably tall even in historic times. Cheyenne, Crow, Blackfeet, Lakota, Assiniboine, etc. Montana today is probably taller than average, given the large numbers from Scandinavia and Germany, but the natives are not notably short.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Neil Templeton

    Good point on native Indians.

    I was wrong. I'm aware that when Euros arrived they found some of the Indians to be "well formed". Presumably those who were doing hunter-gathering (often managed hunter gathering). And, of course, some plains Indians had lifestyles--war and buffalo hunting--that would select for size and strength as well.

    I was basically reacting to the yellow West of Texas--the SW Pueblo Indian tribes. And, of course, conditions on the res there--and in other places--were sub-optimal.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton

  22. @Bobby Jones
    I'm from the middle of Texas descended from generations of farmers on one side and ranchers on the other. The farmer's side - my mom's side - are all around average. They are Czech/German . My mom is 5'5. My dad's rancher side are all tall and thin, including the women. They are English mostly. One of my female cousins is about as tall as me and I'm 6'1. We used to say she should have been a model. My dad is 6'4. I've met tons of white Texans that have been here for generations and plenty that just got here or are from other states. In my observation long term white Texans really are tall people.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    My dad’s rancher side are all tall and thin, including the women.

    All I can say is- congratulations.

  23. @Buzz Mohawk
    It's the hat, folks. You gotta take the hat off. Underneath, they average 5'2".


    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/15/76/af/1576afd9866da90685a13fe5e2752ff4.jpg

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Trinity

    Hoss looks like he’s had a couple of belts. Maybe one big belt.

  24. Germans?

    • Replies: @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    @Anonymous

    Yeah I think so, but also the whole arc from Prussia past Denmark through the low countries. The manner of farming and animal husbandry carries or inherits a lot from the Dutch.

  25. @AnotherDad
    No huge surprises here. Germanics--especially Germans on the farm--taller than more recent immigrants groups back east. And of course, Indians and Mexicans are not tall.

    The interesting thing that struck me is how well the Scots-Irish did in the piedmont/mountains of NC and upstate SC and on through other areas of the south. (But ho-hum in WV.) It can't be driven by blacks as the effects dies away in very heavily black areas of the tidewater or the Delta region of Mississippi. This for guys who grew up during the depression in the relatively poor South.

    I think Texas whites are--traditionally--a combination of Southern whites--skewing more toward frontiersy Scots-Irish--whites, plus Germanics (e.g. Nimitz).

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Anonymous, @additionalMike, @Rebel Roy, @Matttt

    I think Texas whites are–traditionally–a combination of Southern whites–skewing more toward frontiersy Scots-Irish–whites, plus Germanics (e.g. Nimitz).

    Aren’t there a significant number of Irish Catholics in Texas?

    • Replies: @theMann
    @Anonymous

    I think there are more German Catholics than Irish Catholics in Texas. (For some time after Vatican II one could attend Masses in German in the hill country.) I believe that a large number of German Catholics settled in Texas to escape Bismarck's persecutions.

    Must have been a hell of a climate shock.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @FPD72

  26. @Reg Cæsar

    My pet theory is that cattle ranching selects for height.
     
    Cattle aren't pets. (Usually.)

    Anyway, who asked you to horn in? Now we'll be trampled by a stampede of similarly bovine comments. Still, your hypothesis is not udderly bull. It cud be true.


    Now, for something completely off-topic:

    She pulled herself from addiction by learning to code. Now this Kirkland software developer is leading a worker uprising at Apple

    She has the unfortunate name of Cher Scarlett.


    Report: Casey Martin has right leg amputated


    Why so many shootouts? Pretty simple answer, experts say.

    Four people were shot outside a high school football game in Mobile. Three people were shot in Minneapolis just walking around the neighborhood, two in South, one in North.

    Replies: @guest007

    Steve should add a corollary to his mass shooting algorithms. If there is a shooting on campus and a non-student is killed, then the shooting occurred at a black party.

    https://www.ktbs.com/news/second-shooting-occurs-at-grambling-state-university-homecoming-events-and-monday-classes-canceled/article_5793d8b6-2f63-11ec-80c0-53b31b063ed2.html

    • Replies: @Anon
    @guest007

    There was an article the other day about a Tennessee almost-all-night burger restaurant limiting its hours because of unruly customers harassing staff and skipping out without paying, and guns materializing. They also are prohibiting customers "under 18."

    Huh? Are these white customers? No mention of race, of course. There was a mention of a murder outside the restaurant however. As Steve has noticed, murders tend to be accompanied by high quality data. I searched and found a mugshot. Sure enough, a black guy.

    The article also mentioned the Red Rooster Burgers and Brew chain also banning customers under 18. "Among other things, the restaurant's owners accused young customers of throwing fries at employees and sticking candy to the ceilings." Does that smell black or white to you? I'm not sure. It's less of a racial marker than skipping out on the bill.

    But in general, young, and not so young, blacks tend to have broken through some sort of behavioral control barrier post-George Floyd, settling on a new average that is considerably more unpleasant than before and which impacts white people to a greater extent.

    Different topic: Post Netflix-Chappelle, I went to check out the supposed annual massacre of trans people. It turns out to be a paltry couple of dozen a year, and they are mostly urban blacks in the South, and the factual circumstances tend to not be clearly transphobic in nature, with drug deals and personal beefs with friends and acquaintances often involved. Other people on the list are not even clearly trans, but, for instance, might be natal female presenting as feminine female, but reported to have used they/them pronouns and flirted with labels such as nonbinary or genderqueer.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @stillCARealist

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @guest007


    If there is a shooting on campus and a non-student is killed, then the shooting occurred at a black party.
     
    You assume someone named Jatavious at Grambling is black.
  27. @Buzz Mohawk
    It's the hat, folks. You gotta take the hat off. Underneath, they average 5'2".


    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/15/76/af/1576afd9866da90685a13fe5e2752ff4.jpg

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Trinity

    “Hoss” was more than tall, he was big. I always hated Bonanza. Gawd, that show was so lame even by the standards back then. Everything about the scenery looked so fake and cheap. Liked Gunsmoke which was infinitely a much better show. Dan Blocker was even one episode, of course who didn’t appear on Gunsmoke at one time or the other. Even saw good ole “Archie Bunker” on an episode and even “movie star” Charles Bronson. You never really realize how short Charles Bronson was until you saw him next to 6’7″ James Arness. Speaking of height and Matt Dillon, I remember seeing the actor Matt Dillon in the Eighties at some bar and the kid was much shorter than his LISTED height of 6′ or at least he appeared to be to me at the time. Maybe Matt was a late bloomer. hehe.

    Back to the fictional Matt Dillon, he made Blocker appear even more blockish in appearance. You would not have guessed Blocker was 6’4″ next to Arness while Chuck Connors appeared just as tall and in some scenes even taller than Arness. IF Connors was 2″ shorter than Arness it sure didn’t appear to be the case in those scenes of Gunsmoke that I saw. Who knows about celebrity heights and how legit they are, probably just as phony as the rest of Hollywood. Hell, I never knew The Duke wore a rug until recently. And I would have never guessed Jack Lord of Hawaii Five-O was rocking a piece. I always thought his hair looked to good to be true and it was. haha.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Trinity


    Even saw good ole “Archie Bunker” on an episode
     
    As a very sympathetic Major in the Cavalry, who would have better been cast as maybe a Platoon Sergeant.
    , @Gary in Gramercy
    @Trinity

    "I don't like color television. Don't like that color for nothin'. Saw 'Bonanza' at my in-laws, it's not for me. The Ponderosa looked fake. Hardly recognized Little Joe."

    (Diner, 1982)

    Replies: @Trinity

    , @Brutusale
    @Trinity

    Chuck Connors was 6'6". He played basketball for the Boston Celtics before his acting career.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Connors

    Replies: @Trinity

  28. @Jonathan Mason
    Moses Austin never got to see the promised land of Tejas, but his son Stephen F. got the job done by bringing in initially 300 families, who may have been selected for being good physical types, not so much so that they could work the land, as keep order in the sizable enslaved population that was essential to Austin's plans for the development of Texas once the indigenous population had been massacred by the settlers.

    Stephen F. eventually fell out with the Mexican government over the issue of slavery, which the Mexican government wished to abolish pronto and which Steven felt was essential to the prosperity of Texas. (Sounds like a familiar story, huh?)

    Eventually he led a revolution which ended up with the founding of the independent slave state of Texas, which later joined the United Slave States.

    Since Texas had a lot of cattle, the kids probably had plenty of milk and grew up tall and strong with all that calcium for their growing bones.

    Although a lot of what he did would be defined as crimes against humanity by the standards of today, Stephen F. Austin still has public buildings, schools, and hotels named after him, as well as the capital city of Texas.

    Replies: @Dan Hayes, @Ed Case

    Expunge the names of the accursed Austin-named buildings and the accursed-named capital itself!

    • Replies: @Michaeloh
    @Dan Hayes

    It shall be cleansed with quotas and struggle sessions sayeth the One True God, and then the heretics destroyed with demography!!!

  29. @AnotherDad
    No huge surprises here. Germanics--especially Germans on the farm--taller than more recent immigrants groups back east. And of course, Indians and Mexicans are not tall.

    The interesting thing that struck me is how well the Scots-Irish did in the piedmont/mountains of NC and upstate SC and on through other areas of the south. (But ho-hum in WV.) It can't be driven by blacks as the effects dies away in very heavily black areas of the tidewater or the Delta region of Mississippi. This for guys who grew up during the depression in the relatively poor South.

    I think Texas whites are--traditionally--a combination of Southern whites--skewing more toward frontiersy Scots-Irish--whites, plus Germanics (e.g. Nimitz).

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Anonymous, @additionalMike, @Rebel Roy, @Matttt

    “And of course, Indians and Mexicans are not tall.” Depends on the tribe. The pure-blood Indians I met from the Rez near Buffalo NY (Tuscarora, mebbe?) were really big people.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @additionalMike

    That Injun from "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest," Will Sampson, was listed between 6'5"-6'7" depending upon the source. "Ah, Juicy Fruit." But the good ole Chief wasn't much of a basketball player though.

  30. Stephen F. eventually fell out with the Mexican government over the issue of slavery, which the Mexican government wished to abolish pronto and which Steven felt was essential to the prosperity of Texas. (Sounds like a familiar story, huh?)

    Eventually he led a revolution which ended up with the founding of the independent slave state of Texas, which later joined the United Slave States.

    The vast majority of slaves bought from African slavers were shipped to Brazil & the Caribbean Islands.

    Those few who made it to the USA won the lottery.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  31. @2BR
    No immigrants or first generation immigrant kids from the tenements bringing down the average. Northeast had them.

    Replies: @Anonymous Jew

    I thought the same. But then why is Maine so darn short?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Anonymous Jew


    But then why is Maine so darn short?
     
    https://www.farmersalmanac.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Frogs-branch_as295050579.jpeg
    , @epebble
    @Anonymous Jew

    I think it is the French.


    The five largest ancestry groups were: English (20.7%), Irish (17.3%), French (15.7%), German (8.1%), and American (7.8%).

    Maine has the highest percentage of French Americans of any state. Most of them are of Canadian origin, but in some cases have been living there since prior to the American Revolutionary War. There are particularly high concentrations in the northern part of Maine in Aroostook County, which is part of a cultural region known as Acadia that goes over the border into New Brunswick. Along with the Acadian population in the north, many French came from Quebec as immigrants between 1840 and 1930.

    The upper Saint John River valley area was once part of the so-called Republic of Madawaska, before the frontier was decided in the Webster-Ashburton Treaty of 1842. Over a quarter of the population of Lewiston, Waterville, and Biddeford are Franco-American. Most of the residents of the Mid Coast and Down East sections are chiefly of British heritage. Smaller numbers of various other groups, including Irish, Italian and Polish, have settled throughout the state since the late 19th and early 20th century immigration waves.
     
  32. @Bill P
    My pet theory is that cattle ranching selects for height. Cultures that rely heavily on cattle tend to be relatively tall, and Texas was settled in large part by cow people.

    I got this theory by observing the local Dutch dairymen where I live. They are huge. African cow people are also tall. I think it must make the job much easier. Cows can easily trample little people, who have a hard time seeing over them.

    Replies: @Yancey Ward, @Steve-O, @Charlotte, @Alice in Wonderland, @Old and Grumpy, @Lagertha, @Joe Paluka

    Slightly skeptical here. Mexico is heavily a cattle culture. So, not sure about the correlation. More like coincidence.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Alice in Wonderland

    I bet if you compare the rancher Mexicans with the corn farmer Mexicans the former are significantly taller.

    Replies: @Anon

  33. The short version of this seems to be:

    Settler people are taller than Ellis Island people or indigenes.

    No real surprises there.

  34. @additionalMike
    @AnotherDad

    "And of course, Indians and Mexicans are not tall." Depends on the tribe. The pure-blood Indians I met from the Rez near Buffalo NY (Tuscarora, mebbe?) were really big people.

    Replies: @Trinity

    That Injun from “One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest,” Will Sampson, was listed between 6’5″-6’7″ depending upon the source. “Ah, Juicy Fruit.” But the good ole Chief wasn’t much of a basketball player though.

  35. Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?

    Probably a combination of both. Urban cretinism was real and people in the countryside tended to be taller and better fed until recently where the protein and carb deficit between the countryside and city are largely gone outside places of serious poverty.

    As for genetics, those areas that are low that aren’t particularly urban (Though filled with lots of small towns) in the NE are also where the Italians are.

    Of course, do the same calculation now and all that Hispanic immigration will have taken a toll in the South West.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Altai


    Urban cretinism was real...
     
    Bypass this exit:


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/I_94_-_Minneapolis%2C_MN_-_panoramio_%2828%29.jpg

    https://live.staticflickr.com/3167/2812852146_3be7895018_b.jpg

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Altai

    Among the red counties shown are Las Animas, Colorado, hometown of John Gagliardi, the winningest coach in college football history, Marion, W.V., which gave us Mary Lou Retton (Rotunda), Henry Mancini's Beaver, Pa., and Dean Martin's Jefferson, O. (Why DuPage, Ill. is red is for someone else to explain.)


    Iron County, Wisconsin, also in red, attracted not only Italians but Corsicans to the mines. It's noted for its surviving log cabins.

    Replies: @StAugustine

    , @Jay Fink
    @Altai

    I am surprised to see a strip of red in the U.P of Michigan just North of the Wisconsin border. I thought of that area as heavily Scandinavian and German not Italian. I wonder what brought Italians there?

    , @Alexandros
    @Altai

    "What is Elvis' country?"

    A place where there are no Jews and no Italians.

    Replies: @Trinity

  36. @Trinity
    Doesn't matter how much beef or milk you drink, your height is determined ALMOST entirely by genetics. I often wondered IF certain exercises or activities would make someone taller. One would think that MAYBE IF someone were to start an activity like swimming as a youngster before puberty hit IF it might give someone a few extra inches in height. In regards to WWII enlistees, Texans and height. The most decorated soldier of that period was from Texas but he was far from being tall. Hell, he wasn't even close to average in height and he wasn't a Mexican but a gringo. He was Audie Murphy, all 5'5" in height. Freddie Patek, best known for his time spent playing shortstop for the Kansas City Royals in the 1970s was also from Texas and was also short. Patek was one of the shortest guys to ever play in MLB IF not the shortest. "The Flea" aka Patek stood 5'4" to 5'5" depending on the source. Imagine Freddie Patek lined up next to the Washington Monument known as Frank Howard and guessing that both these men made their living in the same sport.

    I saw lots of HUGE people both in height and girth while living in Nebraska. I imagine Minnesota and the Upper Midwest would be full of huge people of Polish, Scandinavian or German descent. German genes, man, those Germans do have great genes. Yep, flyover country Whites probably make East Coast and West Coast hipsters look pretty small and weak. Hell, even Southerners make the Coast Elites look small and weak.

    Replies: @2BR, @Escher, @Known Fact, @Ed Case, @TWS, @kaganovitch

    I once heard the Medal of Honor winner Jack Jacobs speak. He was about Audie Murphy’s height. He joked about his size, but also said, semi-seriously, that being small on the battlefield was a decided advantage in combat.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @2BR

    Yeah, I think I read that the huge James Arness was wounded in WWII, that explains the limp. No doubt that Arness presented a HUGE target whereas Murphy presented almost no target. haha.

    It even used to be common knowledge back in the day that heavyweight boxers shouldn't be extremely large men but only big enough in the range of maybe 6'1" to 6'3" at the tallest and maybe about 210-220lbs or so. The reason given or reasons given were that really big men would be too ponderous and slow, not move well, lack stamina and even thought to lack the killer instinct. That theory has been blown out the water since Lennox Lewis.

    Not that back in the day they did not have huge fighters because they did, only those guys couldn't move, didn't have the right skillset or they were lacking in other areas. Guys like Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, Ray Impellitterre, Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, Jim Beattie ( who played Jess Willard in The Great White Hope) was even bigger than Willard. Beattie stood 6'9" and boxed in the 1960s and 1970s. And where was Beattie from? Minnesota. But Beattie sounds Irish and not Viking. hehe. Interesting that Carnera and Impellitterre would fight each other with Carnera scoring a knockout victory. Impellitterre was nicknamed, "The Skyscraper." Either the "big guys" have gotten better or the "small guys" have gotten worse? I think it is a little of both.

    Replies: @Ed Case, @Feryl

    , @Odin
    @2BR


    He...also said, semi-seriously, that being small on the battlefield was a decided advantage in combat.
     
    I've seen it said there were no tall generals. Reason: a bullet that went through a short man's hat, or over his head, would kill a tall man. The effects accumulated through a lifetime of combat.

    Of course this supposes that combat is the path to generalship.
  37. @Neil Templeton
    @AnotherDad


    Indians and Mexicans are not tall.
     
    Several northern plains tribes were remarkably tall even in historic times. Cheyenne, Crow, Blackfeet, Lakota, Assiniboine, etc. Montana today is probably taller than average, given the large numbers from Scandinavia and Germany, but the natives are not notably short.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    Good point on native Indians.

    I was wrong. I’m aware that when Euros arrived they found some of the Indians to be “well formed”. Presumably those who were doing hunter-gathering (often managed hunter gathering). And, of course, some plains Indians had lifestyles–war and buffalo hunting–that would select for size and strength as well.

    I was basically reacting to the yellow West of Texas–the SW Pueblo Indian tribes. And, of course, conditions on the res there–and in other places–were sub-optimal.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    @AnotherDad

    The competition for the buffalo food source was intense. The Salish and Nez Perce crossed the Rockies annually, under sometimes fierce resistance from the Blackfeet and other east-side tribes, to hunt buffalo. Even as the Nez Perce and other west-siders typically had ample ocean-run steelhead and salmon. Something about red meat.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

  38. In his outstanding book Lone Star: The History of Texas and the Texans, T.R. Ferhenbach emphasizes how unbelievably tall so many of our Texas heroes of the 19th Century were (many of whom were Scots-Irish from Kentucky and Tennessee). Sam Houston (the father of Texas) was, for example, 6ft 2in.

    There were more than a few paragraphs describing how damn tall the Texas Rangers were, particularly (and comically) in relation to the often diminutive Mexicans they were cowering in scuffle after scuffle.

  39. John Wayne was mocked and booed off stage by real he-men Marines when he toured with the USO in WII. His cowboy personna and six shooters didn’t sit well with real combat heroes.

  40. @Redneck farmer
    "Everything's bigger in Texas."

    Replies: @theMann, @Mike Tre, @Schoolboy, @Haxo Angmark, @Charon

    Just ask your wives.

  41. @Redneck farmer
    "Everything's bigger in Texas."

    Replies: @theMann, @Mike Tre, @Schoolboy, @Haxo Angmark, @Charon

    Give a goldfish a bigger pond, and you’ll get a bigger goldfish.

  42. “Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?”

    Consumption of beef. I read somewhere a long time ago that post WWII Japanese gained several inches in height as a population due to the additon of beef to their diet.

  43. REAL life cowboy member of “The Hole In The Wall Gang,” Ben Kilpatrick was nicknamed “The Tall Texan” and stood 6’2″. Nowadays standing 6′ 2″ would be considered somewhat tall but it sure wouldn’t get you a nickname like Stretch or “The Tall Texan.” I was thinking maybe the actor Ted Cassidy all 6’9″ of him played The Tall Texan in the movie, “Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid,” but it appears Cassidy was playing the part of some real life cowpoke named Harvey Logan.

    Cassidy has to be one of the largest if not the largest REEL cowpokes to ever grace the screen. Pretty big when you consider some big fellers have eaten beans by the campfire over the years. Not only do you have The Duke and James Arness, but you had Chuck Connors, Fess Parker, Clint Walker who all were 6’5″ or better. Eastwood at 6’4″? I don’t see it. That has to be an exaggeration even in his prime years.

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
    @Trinity

    For another take on Harvey Logan, read the great George Macdonald Fraser's novel "Mr. American".

    , @Mike Tre
    @Trinity

    Here is Wayne and Eastwood next to each other, and it appears you may be right about Eastwood's height being exaggerated. This photo appears to be on the set of Wayne's last movie The Shootist, so in his mid 70's, Wayne wouldn't have been at his tallest but his boots may have gave him an inch or two as well.

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/a0/00/50a0008d68f99445869372d0a98a6c43.jpg

    Replies: @Trinity

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Trinity

    In his excellent book, "John Wayne's America", Pulitzer Prize winning author Gary Wills makes mention that John Wayne wasn't 6'4". He stood that in his cowboy boots. In the mid '20's while on the USC Trojans roster, Wayne was listed at 6'1.5". With street shoes he would stand about 6'2". But 6'2" back 100 yrs ago was extremely tall, much as 6'5" would be today. In fact you can see it when he is with other actors of around 6'1" or 6'2" and he's not wearing boots. He's clearly not 6'4" unless in boots.

    In fact, there's a famous picture in the mid. '40's, with Gary Cooper and John Wayne both actors standing right next to each other. John Wayne is wearing regular shoes, and so is Cooper. Cooper is clearly taller than Wayne by at least 2 inches. And Gary Cooper was always listed at 6'3".

    Eastwood is definitely tall, easily 6'3" at least so perhaps the extra inch from shoes/boots makes him 6'4" but it's more believable with him than with Wayne.

  44. @Anonymous
    @AnotherDad


    I think Texas whites are–traditionally–a combination of Southern whites–skewing more toward frontiersy Scots-Irish–whites, plus Germanics (e.g. Nimitz).

     

    Aren’t there a significant number of Irish Catholics in Texas?

    Replies: @theMann

    I think there are more German Catholics than Irish Catholics in Texas. (For some time after Vatican II one could attend Masses in German in the hill country.) I believe that a large number of German Catholics settled in Texas to escape Bismarck’s persecutions.

    Must have been a hell of a climate shock.

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @theMann

    "German Catholics"

    A significant amount of German Catholics settled in Texas after the Scots-Irish cleared out the Mexicans and Comanche for them. Another migration of Germans landed at Fort Bliss in the late 1940s. They helped von Braun win the war for Hitler.

    Replies: @Not Raul

    , @FPD72
    @theMann


    I believe that a large number of German Catholics settled in Texas to escape Bismarck’s persecutions.
     
    Large scale German immigration to Texas began shortly after the founding of the Republic in 1836. The founding of the Society for the Protection of German Immigrants in Texas in 1842 increased German immigration. The German Catholic grandfather of Chester Nimitz became a Texas Ranger in 1851, well before Bismarck came into power.
  45. Germans. Czechs. Some things you don’t have to overthink…

  46. @AnotherDad
    @Neil Templeton

    Good point on native Indians.

    I was wrong. I'm aware that when Euros arrived they found some of the Indians to be "well formed". Presumably those who were doing hunter-gathering (often managed hunter gathering). And, of course, some plains Indians had lifestyles--war and buffalo hunting--that would select for size and strength as well.

    I was basically reacting to the yellow West of Texas--the SW Pueblo Indian tribes. And, of course, conditions on the res there--and in other places--were sub-optimal.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton

    The competition for the buffalo food source was intense. The Salish and Nez Perce crossed the Rockies annually, under sometimes fierce resistance from the Blackfeet and other east-side tribes, to hunt buffalo. Even as the Nez Perce and other west-siders typically had ample ocean-run steelhead and salmon. Something about red meat.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Neil Templeton

    Neil, also hard to make tents, robes, blankets etc, out of salmon pelts. Take care.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Bill P

  47. @Anonymous Jew
    @2BR

    I thought the same. But then why is Maine so darn short?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @epebble

    But then why is Maine so darn short?

    • Thanks: Charon
  48. @JimB

    Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?
     
    And smoking Marlborough cigarettes.

    Replies: @Del

    Marlboroughs were marketed to women. Marlboros and the Marlboro man did not show up until the 60s. Maybe Bull Durham.

  49. @Altai

    Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?
     
    Probably a combination of both. Urban cretinism was real and people in the countryside tended to be taller and better fed until recently where the protein and carb deficit between the countryside and city are largely gone outside places of serious poverty.

    As for genetics, those areas that are low that aren't particularly urban (Though filled with lots of small towns) in the NE are also where the Italians are.

    https://www.mngeo.state.mn.us/maps/ancestry/us/italian.gif

    Of course, do the same calculation now and all that Hispanic immigration will have taken a toll in the South West.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar, @Jay Fink, @Alexandros

    Urban cretinism was real…

    Bypass this exit:

  50. “map of counties where the tall kids are better at getting out of the draft than short kids”

    you were right about Miami in the 80s but you shanked this one

    • Replies: @Anon
    @very old statistician

    Awwww, look, somebody's insecure about the fact that men in his county are short!

  51. @2BR
    @Trinity

    I once heard the Medal of Honor winner Jack Jacobs speak. He was about Audie Murphy’s height. He joked about his size, but also said, semi-seriously, that being small on the battlefield was a decided advantage in combat.

    Replies: @Trinity, @Odin

    Yeah, I think I read that the huge James Arness was wounded in WWII, that explains the limp. No doubt that Arness presented a HUGE target whereas Murphy presented almost no target. haha.

    It even used to be common knowledge back in the day that heavyweight boxers shouldn’t be extremely large men but only big enough in the range of maybe 6’1″ to 6’3″ at the tallest and maybe about 210-220lbs or so. The reason given or reasons given were that really big men would be too ponderous and slow, not move well, lack stamina and even thought to lack the killer instinct. That theory has been blown out the water since Lennox Lewis.

    Not that back in the day they did not have huge fighters because they did, only those guys couldn’t move, didn’t have the right skillset or they were lacking in other areas. Guys like Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, Ray Impellitterre, Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, Jim Beattie ( who played Jess Willard in The Great White Hope) was even bigger than Willard. Beattie stood 6’9″ and boxed in the 1960s and 1970s. And where was Beattie from? Minnesota. But Beattie sounds Irish and not Viking. hehe. Interesting that Carnera and Impellitterre would fight each other with Carnera scoring a knockout victory. Impellitterre was nicknamed, “The Skyscraper.” Either the “big guys” have gotten better or the “small guys” have gotten worse? I think it is a little of both.

    • Replies: @Ed Case
    @Trinity

    Gunboat Smith fought Willard and estimated his height to be at least 6'10''.
    There's a picture of the training camp for the Carnera Baer bout, Willard is on the left of the picture with knees bent and Carnera on the extreme right and Willard still appears much bigger than Carnera.

    Replies: @Trinity

    , @Feryl
    @Trinity

    Athletes in most sports have gotten quite a bit taller over the last 30 or so years. Ironic exception: basketball, where emphasis on longer range shooting over the last 10 years has made slow really tall guys less valuable. Stiff big men used to be drafted quite high E.G. Sam Bowie drafted above Micheal Jordan. Part of this is also rule changes, aggressive clashes near the rim have been cracked down on so the necessity of having intimidating heft on the court at all times has been reduced while finesse is more rewarded.

    My sense is that pre-1990 there was a misconception that being really tall usually brought clumsiness. But eventually a height arms race began where tall people were sought after not just by basketball coaches but by other coaches as well. I read an article that said very tall pitchers have worse stats than very short ones, because scouts and coaches are so enamored with the power conveyed by size. Rangy pitchers will get more opportunities from teams hoping to teach them better finesse. Short guys on the other hand have to be really good to stay in the big leagues.

    Replies: @Prester John

  52. @AndrewR
    According to Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in Full Metal Jacket, only steers and queers come from Texas, so maybe them farm boys ain't just drinking milk...

    Replies: @SteveRogers42, @SunBakedSuburb, @Currahee

    Thought that was Lou Gosset in Officer and a Gentleman?

  53. @AndrewR
    According to Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in Full Metal Jacket, only steers and queers come from Texas, so maybe them farm boys ain't just drinking milk...

    Replies: @SteveRogers42, @SunBakedSuburb, @Currahee

    “only steers and queers come from Texas”

    At boot camp I received a similar response from my CC after he asked where I was from: “Only fruits and nuts come from California.” I answered sir yes sir then began a soliloquy on California’s rich and diverse agricultural bounty. It turned out to be a golden afternoon at Cape May.

    • LOL: Escher, Charon
    • Replies: @Trinity
    @SunBakedSuburb

    Ah, a Coastie in the crowd. Charlie company here. YN1 Bragg was the CC. A Black woman as a company commander. haha. She later had assistance from a White BMC. Go figure, yet another qualified White male doing the ACTUAL JOB of an affirmative action Black and a Black female at that. And this was almost 40 years ago. We see how bad the military has become since then.

    As I remember every CC at the time was a Chief Petty Officer except the golden Bragg, the only one ranked lower than an E7 in the bunch.

    Replies: @AndrewR

  54. @Anonymous Jew
    @2BR

    I thought the same. But then why is Maine so darn short?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @epebble

    I think it is the French.

    The five largest ancestry groups were: English (20.7%), Irish (17.3%), French (15.7%), German (8.1%), and American (7.8%).

    Maine has the highest percentage of French Americans of any state. Most of them are of Canadian origin, but in some cases have been living there since prior to the American Revolutionary War. There are particularly high concentrations in the northern part of Maine in Aroostook County, which is part of a cultural region known as Acadia that goes over the border into New Brunswick. Along with the Acadian population in the north, many French came from Quebec as immigrants between 1840 and 1930.

    The upper Saint John River valley area was once part of the so-called Republic of Madawaska, before the frontier was decided in the Webster-Ashburton Treaty of 1842. Over a quarter of the population of Lewiston, Waterville, and Biddeford are Franco-American. Most of the residents of the Mid Coast and Down East sections are chiefly of British heritage. Smaller numbers of various other groups, including Irish, Italian and Polish, have settled throughout the state since the late 19th and early 20th century immigration waves.

    • Thanks: Anonymous Jew
  55. @Alice in Wonderland
    @Bill P

    Slightly skeptical here. Mexico is heavily a cattle culture. So, not sure about the correlation. More like coincidence.

    Replies: @Bill P

    I bet if you compare the rancher Mexicans with the corn farmer Mexicans the former are significantly taller.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Anon
    @Bill P

    Correct. So my family has been cattle ranching for a three generations, though I myself don’t. Anyway, since I was a kid you’d hear that you’ve got to stand up tall and straight in front of ornery cows, because they only see two dimensions. If cows see that you are the taller beast, cows will assume you have a ton or two behind you and will leave you alone. I guess cowboy hats help too.

    People in the northern part of Mexico —cattle area— are significantly taller than in the southern states.

  56. Anon[560] • Disclaimer says:
    @guest007
    @Reg Cæsar

    Steve should add a corollary to his mass shooting algorithms. If there is a shooting on campus and a non-student is killed, then the shooting occurred at a black party.

    https://www.ktbs.com/news/second-shooting-occurs-at-grambling-state-university-homecoming-events-and-monday-classes-canceled/article_5793d8b6-2f63-11ec-80c0-53b31b063ed2.html

    Replies: @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    There was an article the other day about a Tennessee almost-all-night burger restaurant limiting its hours because of unruly customers harassing staff and skipping out without paying, and guns materializing. They also are prohibiting customers “under 18.”

    Huh? Are these white customers? No mention of race, of course. There was a mention of a murder outside the restaurant however. As Steve has noticed, murders tend to be accompanied by high quality data. I searched and found a mugshot. Sure enough, a black guy.

    The article also mentioned the Red Rooster Burgers and Brew chain also banning customers under 18. “Among other things, the restaurant’s owners accused young customers of throwing fries at employees and sticking candy to the ceilings.” Does that smell black or white to you? I’m not sure. It’s less of a racial marker than skipping out on the bill.

    But in general, young, and not so young, blacks tend to have broken through some sort of behavioral control barrier post-George Floyd, settling on a new average that is considerably more unpleasant than before and which impacts white people to a greater extent.

    Different topic: Post Netflix-Chappelle, I went to check out the supposed annual massacre of trans people. It turns out to be a paltry couple of dozen a year, and they are mostly urban blacks in the South, and the factual circumstances tend to not be clearly transphobic in nature, with drug deals and personal beefs with friends and acquaintances often involved. Other people on the list are not even clearly trans, but, for instance, might be natal female presenting as feminine female, but reported to have used they/them pronouns and flirted with labels such as nonbinary or genderqueer.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Anon

    The homosexual advocate's explanation for gay deaths is lack of wider societal acceptance, so they try to never mention that trannies have always been maximally volatile people, as the wrong costume would lead anyone to believe. We ought to be seeing a huge drop in tranny suicide and death.

    , @stillCARealist
    @Anon


    But in general, young, and not so young, blacks tend to have broken through some sort of behavioral control barrier post-George Floyd, settling on a new average that is considerably more unpleasant than before and which impacts white people to a greater extent.
     
    A friend was telling me about Tik Tok challenges that rebellious kids are into these days. Outrageous behavior along with daring vandalism makes them popular on social media for a few minutes. Stuff like trashing a school bathroom, slapping a teacher, digging up a signpost. I imagine that the more criminally minded youths come up with even scarier stunts to pull, and some of those put people in the hospital or the morgue.
  57. @theMann
    @Anonymous

    I think there are more German Catholics than Irish Catholics in Texas. (For some time after Vatican II one could attend Masses in German in the hill country.) I believe that a large number of German Catholics settled in Texas to escape Bismarck's persecutions.

    Must have been a hell of a climate shock.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @FPD72

    “German Catholics”

    A significant amount of German Catholics settled in Texas after the Scots-Irish cleared out the Mexicans and Comanche for them. Another migration of Germans landed at Fort Bliss in the late 1940s. They helped von Braun win the war for Hitler.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    @SunBakedSuburb

    Here is an interesting page on German settlement in Texas.

    https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/germans

  58. @Bobby Jones
    I'm from the middle of Texas descended from generations of farmers on one side and ranchers on the other. The farmer's side - my mom's side - are all around average. They are Czech/German . My mom is 5'5. My dad's rancher side are all tall and thin, including the women. They are English mostly. One of my female cousins is about as tall as me and I'm 6'1. We used to say she should have been a model. My dad is 6'4. I've met tons of white Texans that have been here for generations and plenty that just got here or are from other states. In my observation long term white Texans really are tall people.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    “In my observation long term white Texans really are tall people.”

    And, based upon a couple years I spent in Callahan County whilst a boy, grim. Especially the women. The women from my father’s side of the family were tallish, thin, and grim. The men were much more pleasant, and they all seemed to have guns — hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols — in their trucks.

    • Replies: @rebel yell
    @SunBakedSuburb


    The men were much more pleasant, and they all seemed to have guns — hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols — in their trucks.
     
    Cause and effect?
  59. @Trinity
    Doesn't matter how much beef or milk you drink, your height is determined ALMOST entirely by genetics. I often wondered IF certain exercises or activities would make someone taller. One would think that MAYBE IF someone were to start an activity like swimming as a youngster before puberty hit IF it might give someone a few extra inches in height. In regards to WWII enlistees, Texans and height. The most decorated soldier of that period was from Texas but he was far from being tall. Hell, he wasn't even close to average in height and he wasn't a Mexican but a gringo. He was Audie Murphy, all 5'5" in height. Freddie Patek, best known for his time spent playing shortstop for the Kansas City Royals in the 1970s was also from Texas and was also short. Patek was one of the shortest guys to ever play in MLB IF not the shortest. "The Flea" aka Patek stood 5'4" to 5'5" depending on the source. Imagine Freddie Patek lined up next to the Washington Monument known as Frank Howard and guessing that both these men made their living in the same sport.

    I saw lots of HUGE people both in height and girth while living in Nebraska. I imagine Minnesota and the Upper Midwest would be full of huge people of Polish, Scandinavian or German descent. German genes, man, those Germans do have great genes. Yep, flyover country Whites probably make East Coast and West Coast hipsters look pretty small and weak. Hell, even Southerners make the Coast Elites look small and weak.

    Replies: @2BR, @Escher, @Known Fact, @Ed Case, @TWS, @kaganovitch

    There’s documented evidence of kids in Japan and Korea growing taller with each generation as nutrition levels improved, requiring changes in school desks to accommodate the bigger kids.

  60. @Neil Templeton
    @AnotherDad

    The competition for the buffalo food source was intense. The Salish and Nez Perce crossed the Rockies annually, under sometimes fierce resistance from the Blackfeet and other east-side tribes, to hunt buffalo. Even as the Nez Perce and other west-siders typically had ample ocean-run steelhead and salmon. Something about red meat.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Neil, also hard to make tents, robes, blankets etc, out of salmon pelts. Take care.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    @Buffalo Joe

    True 'nuff. Our fellow warm-bloods carry insulation on their backs.

    , @Bill P
    @Buffalo Joe

    Joe, salmon tastes like crap when that's all you have for months on end. Lewis and Clark traded for dog meat to avoid having to eat more salmon.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  61. Back in the mid-50s my grandmother from northern Ohio visited us in Ft. Worth and I recall her insisting that Texas boys appeared unusually tall.

  62. @Trinity
    Doesn't matter how much beef or milk you drink, your height is determined ALMOST entirely by genetics. I often wondered IF certain exercises or activities would make someone taller. One would think that MAYBE IF someone were to start an activity like swimming as a youngster before puberty hit IF it might give someone a few extra inches in height. In regards to WWII enlistees, Texans and height. The most decorated soldier of that period was from Texas but he was far from being tall. Hell, he wasn't even close to average in height and he wasn't a Mexican but a gringo. He was Audie Murphy, all 5'5" in height. Freddie Patek, best known for his time spent playing shortstop for the Kansas City Royals in the 1970s was also from Texas and was also short. Patek was one of the shortest guys to ever play in MLB IF not the shortest. "The Flea" aka Patek stood 5'4" to 5'5" depending on the source. Imagine Freddie Patek lined up next to the Washington Monument known as Frank Howard and guessing that both these men made their living in the same sport.

    I saw lots of HUGE people both in height and girth while living in Nebraska. I imagine Minnesota and the Upper Midwest would be full of huge people of Polish, Scandinavian or German descent. German genes, man, those Germans do have great genes. Yep, flyover country Whites probably make East Coast and West Coast hipsters look pretty small and weak. Hell, even Southerners make the Coast Elites look small and weak.

    Replies: @2BR, @Escher, @Known Fact, @Ed Case, @TWS, @kaganovitch

    At 6’0″ I’m a full three inches or more taller than any man in my lineage, and my mother was tiny.

    BTW along with Fred Patek there was 5’5″ outfielder Albie Pearson in the 50s and 60s. More relevantly, the great Jose Altuve is just listed at just 5’6″

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Known Fact

    Known Fact, I used to be a big fan of Altuve, but I don't like cheaters so... so long Jose.

    , @Bill Jones
    @Known Fact


    At 6’0″ I’m a full three inches or more taller than any man in my lineage, and my mother was tiny.
     
    It suggests that your lineage may not be a Known Fact.

    Replies: @Known Fact

  63. @Buffalo Joe
    @Neil Templeton

    Neil, also hard to make tents, robes, blankets etc, out of salmon pelts. Take care.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Bill P

    True ’nuff. Our fellow warm-bloods carry insulation on their backs.

  64. @AndrewR
    According to Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in Full Metal Jacket, only steers and queers come from Texas, so maybe them farm boys ain't just drinking milk...

    Replies: @SteveRogers42, @SunBakedSuburb, @Currahee

    Dude, Louis Gossett, An Officer and a Gentleman; and it was Oklahoma to which he was referring.
    Geez!

    • Disagree: Charon
  65. A Four Flickers classic, covered by Murry Kellum as well as Murry Wilson’s sons and nephew:

  66. I think Anon[374]/Disclaimer has the most accurate response, and basically wrote what I would have written with firsthand albeit anecdotal knowledge. Texas was not, as some have suggested, heavily German. There were a few counties of German refugee colonies from the 1848 revolutions. Especially in 1941, Texas whites were, as with the rest of the South save southern Louisiana, largely if not overwhelmingly of British ancestry. I don’t know how many of those were Scotch-Irish but I suspect a heavy portion. My paternal ancestors arrived in Texas in the late 1830s from Tennessee, having left Ulster in 1718. If you were not physically robust, you died. They were cattlemen by the 1850s. My recent Texas male ancestors were almost universally above average height, most all above 6 feet. And the observation that the state was bereft of Southern and Eastern Europeans, more common in the Northeast and industrial Midwest, also is important as their average height would have brought the mean down. The theory about access to beef is intriguing. I’d like to see stats on consumption.

    • Replies: @pirelli
    @Richard Killough

    My recollection (supported by the article below) is that around 5 percent of Texans were of German descent by the middle of the 19th century, so you’re right that Texas was never “heavily” German.

    https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/germans

    They weren’t all (or even mostly) refugees from the 1848 revolutions though. Most were economic migrants, and they started arriving in significant numbers in the 1830s. German immigration to Texas reached its peak in the mid-1840s, before the 1848 revolutions.

  67. The bizarre thing is that when my wife and I moved up here (one of your bright orange counties in Oregon) from a less-orange (shorter) county in California, we were struck by how short the men tended to be.

    It was weird: who’d a thought lumberjacks were an average of 5′ 7″?

    But that’s what we noticed.

  68. From watching “Sea Hunt,” I’d guess “Tall Texan” Lloyd Bridges was about average height, maybe 5-foot-10 (though well-built). Never judge by the advertising! His son Jeff seems much larger physically- Beau, not so much.

  69. @ANON
    @Reg Cæsar

    I imagine the white/blan/missing counties are just missing data for some reason, or for some reason there's less record of the data and not enough to give an average.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I imagine the white/blan/missing counties are just missing data for some reason…

    You’d think that homes of universities such as St Lawrence, Clarkson, SUNY Potsdam, and Minnesota-Duluth would have been able to collect data on college-age men. All date to the 19th century.

    • Replies: @RedBonnet1
    @Reg Cæsar

    Maybe the data of those counties were lost somehow.

  70. I wonder if the heights were self-reported.

    Anecdotally, me being a native New Englander, Maine-iacs are rather tall and rugged.

    They’re also very plain-spoken as are Canadians from New Brunswick and the Maritimes.

    Texans, well they’re pretty proud of their “tall tales.”

    YMMV

    • Replies: @MaineMan
    @Coemgen

    I imagine the French-Canadians are weighing down the Maine averages, especially the ones in Northern Maine/along the border. I also doubt that they are self-reported given that these statistics are taken from the military during World War II, important to have as accurate data as possible during the war.

    , @Brutusale
    @Coemgen

    Outside the thin coastal strip from Freeport to the NH border, Maine is Appalachia.

    Back when I was selling packaging, one of my accounts was the largest meatpacker in New England. They made a product called Macaroni & Cheese Loaf. The purchasing manager told me that it was essentially cheap protein for the poor people living "up the county".

    https://www.kayem.com/products/macaroni-cheese-loaf/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edl8c_L7P4M

    My first visit to my customer's main facility put me right off deli meats for a long time.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Reg Cæsar

  71. @guest007
    @Reg Cæsar

    Steve should add a corollary to his mass shooting algorithms. If there is a shooting on campus and a non-student is killed, then the shooting occurred at a black party.

    https://www.ktbs.com/news/second-shooting-occurs-at-grambling-state-university-homecoming-events-and-monday-classes-canceled/article_5793d8b6-2f63-11ec-80c0-53b31b063ed2.html

    Replies: @Anon, @Reg Cæsar

    If there is a shooting on campus and a non-student is killed, then the shooting occurred at a black party.

    You assume someone named Jatavious at Grambling is black.

  72. Yuri Gagarin got the honors of being the first human into space because he stood only 5’2″. By the time the engineers finished work on the Soviet space capsule it was so cramped that Gagarin and the similarly short Gherman Titov were the only cosmonaut trainees physically able to fit. Titov had been the earlier of the two to start training and normally would have gone first, but the political overseers chose Gagarin because he had a more conventionally Russian-sounding first name.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @prosa123

    Astronauts and fighter pilots all have been lower in height for the same reasons. I don't know if that is true anymore. What I do know is that in America, if you were a tall pilot, they assigned you to a bomber.

    This is a common theme. The most exotic Italian sports cars used to have what was described as the Italian driving position: designed for short legs. (Simian?) When I got the chance to sit in the driver's seat of a Lamborghini Countach, I discovered that I really couldn't drive it. I had to contort myself and bend my knees up around the steering wheel and tilt my feet backward so as not to push on the pedals. My head touched the ceiling, and I actually had to lean it over a bit.


    http://media.gq.com/photos/559318d17dbd34d650ec858b/master/pass/cars-and-gear-2009-12-stylish-cars-70s-cars-lamborghini1.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Alfa158, @Buffalo Joe

    , @rebel yell
    @prosa123

    Likewise shorter people make better horse jockeys. As many know income tracks with height, so statistically the taller you are the more money you make. Jockeys and cosmonauts are examples of individuals who buck this trend. Likewise the Chinese acrobat actor in the Ocean movies got the role and made his movie royalties precisely because he was short.
    Height can get you more money in some circumstances, but shortness can get you more money in other circumstances. The instances of height working in your favor simply outnumber the instances where shortness works in your favor.
    All hail Audie Murphy, a great American story.

  73. @Steve-O
    @Bill P

    The Dutch counties in NW Iowa and West Michigan are red.

    Texas was heavily German, was it not?

    Replies: @Michaeloh

    “German country” is central texas, think austin up to San Antonio south, up to Houston to the east, including the Hill Country (Fredericksburg, Lukenbach) to the West and fading out somewhere to the north. They were farmers, craftsmen and merchants and even today you can notice the tidiness and orderliness of thier communities- especially in contrast to the high spanics and my people, the less orderly Scotch-Irish. The Czechs are also numerous in German country, but didn’t get there own “country” probably because to the Mexicans and the Scotch-Irish all central europeans looked alike.

    • Replies: @Michaeloh
    @Michaeloh

    “Scotch-irish” Im probably never going to live that down.

    Replies: @Cato

  74. @Michaeloh
    @Steve-O

    “German country” is central texas, think austin up to San Antonio south, up to Houston to the east, including the Hill Country (Fredericksburg, Lukenbach) to the West and fading out somewhere to the north. They were farmers, craftsmen and merchants and even today you can notice the tidiness and orderliness of thier communities- especially in contrast to the high spanics and my people, the less orderly Scotch-Irish. The Czechs are also numerous in German country, but didn’t get there own “country” probably because to the Mexicans and the Scotch-Irish all central europeans looked alike.

    Replies: @Michaeloh

    “Scotch-irish” Im probably never going to live that down.

    • Replies: @Cato
    @Michaeloh

    The Bohemians came to Texas decades after the initial wave of settlement out of the upper South (mostly Tennessee and Kentucky). Tallness probably comes mostly from the latter -- they are a mix of Borderers (Scotch-Irish) and English/Welsh settlers from the Chesapeake. The Borderers come from the Danelaw area of Britain, and are primarily descendants of Danish Vikings.

    Replies: @Feryl

  75. @Dan Hayes
    @Jonathan Mason

    Expunge the names of the accursed Austin-named buildings and the accursed-named capital itself!

    Replies: @Michaeloh

    It shall be cleansed with quotas and struggle sessions sayeth the One True God, and then the heretics destroyed with demography!!!

    • Thanks: Dan Hayes, Polistra
  76. @Altai

    Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?
     
    Probably a combination of both. Urban cretinism was real and people in the countryside tended to be taller and better fed until recently where the protein and carb deficit between the countryside and city are largely gone outside places of serious poverty.

    As for genetics, those areas that are low that aren't particularly urban (Though filled with lots of small towns) in the NE are also where the Italians are.

    https://www.mngeo.state.mn.us/maps/ancestry/us/italian.gif

    Of course, do the same calculation now and all that Hispanic immigration will have taken a toll in the South West.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar, @Jay Fink, @Alexandros

    Among the red counties shown are Las Animas, Colorado, hometown of John Gagliardi, the winningest coach in college football history, Marion, W.V., which gave us Mary Lou Retton (Rotunda), Henry Mancini’s Beaver, Pa., and Dean Martin’s Jefferson, O. (Why DuPage, Ill. is red is for someone else to explain.)

    Iron County, Wisconsin, also in red, attracted not only Italians but Corsicans to the mines. It’s noted for its surviving log cabins.

    • Replies: @StAugustine
    @Reg Cæsar

    I flew next to an italian/argentine guy once and I was surprised that he had family up in da UP, as I had thought that the mining up there was being run by Cornish miners. He said no, the Cornish were there but the Italians had more know how and were the ones in charge - Iron, copper, tin up there, and the Cornish miners were more coal miners.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  77. Asians are getting much taller due to the addition of protein in their current diets.

  78. @Trinity
    @Buzz Mohawk

    "Hoss" was more than tall, he was big. I always hated Bonanza. Gawd, that show was so lame even by the standards back then. Everything about the scenery looked so fake and cheap. Liked Gunsmoke which was infinitely a much better show. Dan Blocker was even one episode, of course who didn't appear on Gunsmoke at one time or the other. Even saw good ole "Archie Bunker" on an episode and even "movie star" Charles Bronson. You never really realize how short Charles Bronson was until you saw him next to 6'7" James Arness. Speaking of height and Matt Dillon, I remember seeing the actor Matt Dillon in the Eighties at some bar and the kid was much shorter than his LISTED height of 6' or at least he appeared to be to me at the time. Maybe Matt was a late bloomer. hehe.

    Back to the fictional Matt Dillon, he made Blocker appear even more blockish in appearance. You would not have guessed Blocker was 6'4" next to Arness while Chuck Connors appeared just as tall and in some scenes even taller than Arness. IF Connors was 2" shorter than Arness it sure didn't appear to be the case in those scenes of Gunsmoke that I saw. Who knows about celebrity heights and how legit they are, probably just as phony as the rest of Hollywood. Hell, I never knew The Duke wore a rug until recently. And I would have never guessed Jack Lord of Hawaii Five-O was rocking a piece. I always thought his hair looked to good to be true and it was. haha.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Gary in Gramercy, @Brutusale

    Even saw good ole “Archie Bunker” on an episode

    As a very sympathetic Major in the Cavalry, who would have better been cast as maybe a Platoon Sergeant.

  79. Went to a college football game in Grand Forks. The indoor dome. Saw a ton of truly big men. Tall and strong. Impressive. I’m over six foot and it was truly noticeable

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Dryheavz

    How many of them have a clue what's been happening to their country, and how many of those have a clue what to do about it?

    Replies: @anonymous

  80. @Anonymous
    Germans?

    Replies: @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    Yeah I think so, but also the whole arc from Prussia past Denmark through the low countries. The manner of farming and animal husbandry carries or inherits a lot from the Dutch.

  81. As others here have alluded to, it’s largely the diet of meat and milk. Genetics and diet are the nature and nurture of height. If your people are heavy into cow-raising and cattling, then your family will likely be taller than average. Germans, Irish, Massai, etc. were all known for being big dudes, and it was largely because of heavy meat and milk consumption amongst the people, e.g. one estimate has that 40% of the Irish diet pre-Ulster Plantation/pre-Cromwell takeover was meat or dairy. It’s no wonder the greatest epic in the Irish language is about thievery of cattle, the source of wealth, status, and power in pre-English Ireland: The Cattle Raid of Cooley.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/T%C3%A1in_B%C3%B3_C%C3%BAailnge

    Fish-based people tend to be smaller in stature. For example, the Portuguese or Japanese. In fact, it was only in the 70s and 80s when the Japanese starting importing a lot more meat that they started getting taller, lankier dudes who became the models of many anime heroes — and such native Japanese suddenly started whacking their heads on the subway train and door tops just as American pro wrestlers and baseball players had been doing since finishing up their careers in Japan.

  82. @Trinity
    REAL life cowboy member of "The Hole In The Wall Gang," Ben Kilpatrick was nicknamed "The Tall Texan" and stood 6'2". Nowadays standing 6' 2" would be considered somewhat tall but it sure wouldn't get you a nickname like Stretch or "The Tall Texan." I was thinking maybe the actor Ted Cassidy all 6'9" of him played The Tall Texan in the movie, "Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid," but it appears Cassidy was playing the part of some real life cowpoke named Harvey Logan.

    Cassidy has to be one of the largest if not the largest REEL cowpokes to ever grace the screen. Pretty big when you consider some big fellers have eaten beans by the campfire over the years. Not only do you have The Duke and James Arness, but you had Chuck Connors, Fess Parker, Clint Walker who all were 6'5" or better. Eastwood at 6'4"? I don't see it. That has to be an exaggeration even in his prime years.

    Replies: @SteveRogers42, @Mike Tre, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    For another take on Harvey Logan, read the great George Macdonald Fraser’s novel “Mr. American”.

    • Thanks: Trinity
  83. In other news, the murderer of University of Utah football player Aaron Lowe has been identified as Buk M. Buk, a black immigrant from Sudan. On October 22, 2018, U of U athlete Lauren McCluskey was murdered by convicted sex offender Melvin Reynolds. On June 17, 2019, U of U student Mackenzie Lueck was murdered by Nigerian immigrant Ayoola Ajayi.

    Three University of Utah students have been murdered in the last three years. All three of them were murdered by black men, and two of them were murdered by African immigrants, in a state that is barely 1% black.

    Meanwhile, in the deep blue city of Philadelphia, a black man by the name of Fishton Ngoy – most often a Congolese name – has been arrested for raping a woman on a commuter train while fellow commuters stood by and did nothing.

    Meanwhile, in Merry Old England, in the pleasant little Whitopia of Leigh-on-Sea (the childhood home of actress Helen Mirren) a Conservative Member of Parliament has been murdered by a Somali immigrant by the name of Ali Harbor Ali, the son of a former high Somali government official.

    The British government is reportedly going to respond by providing armed guards to all of its MPs. No word yet on what they’ll be doing to protect the rest of Great Britain from the consequences of the government’s own immigration policy. Hopefully they’ll come up with something before another 30,000 Africans arrive by boat from France.

    That’s all the news for now.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Wilkey


    Meanwhile, in the deep blue city of Philadelphia, a black man by the name of Fishton Ngoy – most often a Congolese name – has been arrested for raping a woman on a commuter train...
     
    Was he headed to Fishtown? She sure didn't want him Upper Darby.

    The thumbnail says "Men Can Stop Rape", but, unlike that group, this fellow realizes that "creating cultures free of violence" is not the way to go about it:


    https://youtu.be/jGyL-vXhwZU

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5c5c40ede66669768af196de/1556828617828-VTNWL1V614BPUXWRLULA/MCSR%252BLogo%252B2012%252B%2525281296%252Bx%252B440%252Bpixels%252529.jpg?format=1500w


    Men Can Stop Rape = Crap men on SEPTA. Peeps can not arm!

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    , @Jack Armstrong
    @Wilkey


    At least one dead, several injured in on-campus shooting at Grambling State University

    By Gregory Lemos, Alta Spells and Andy Rose, CNN

    Updated 5:36 PM ET, Sun October 17, 2021


    (CNN) —One person has died and seven others were injured in a shooting at Grambling State University in Louisiana early Sunday morning, police and university officials said in a news conference.

    One person died, one is hospitalized in critical condition and six suffered non-life-threatening wounds, Louisiana State Police Master Trooper Michael Reichardt said. Only one of the injured victims was a student.
    "At this point, we have no suspect information for this shooting," said Reichardt, adding the motive is unknown. "Our investigators are doing everything they can."
     

    Master trooper?

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Alfa158
    @Wilkey

    Eric Striker said everything that needs to be said about Ames with that one photo in his post about the murder. He didn’t even really need to add any text.
    https://www.unz.com/estriker/uk-conservative-mp-stabbed-to-death-by-somali-was-a-strong-supporter-of-black-lives-matter/

  84. @theMann
    @Anonymous

    I think there are more German Catholics than Irish Catholics in Texas. (For some time after Vatican II one could attend Masses in German in the hill country.) I believe that a large number of German Catholics settled in Texas to escape Bismarck's persecutions.

    Must have been a hell of a climate shock.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @FPD72

    I believe that a large number of German Catholics settled in Texas to escape Bismarck’s persecutions.

    Large scale German immigration to Texas began shortly after the founding of the Republic in 1836. The founding of the Society for the Protection of German Immigrants in Texas in 1842 increased German immigration. The German Catholic grandfather of Chester Nimitz became a Texas Ranger in 1851, well before Bismarck came into power.

  85. @prosa123
    Yuri Gagarin got the honors of being the first human into space because he stood only 5'2". By the time the engineers finished work on the Soviet space capsule it was so cramped that Gagarin and the similarly short Gherman Titov were the only cosmonaut trainees physically able to fit. Titov had been the earlier of the two to start training and normally would have gone first, but the political overseers chose Gagarin because he had a more conventionally Russian-sounding first name.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @rebel yell

    Astronauts and fighter pilots all have been lower in height for the same reasons. I don’t know if that is true anymore. What I do know is that in America, if you were a tall pilot, they assigned you to a bomber.

    This is a common theme. The most exotic Italian sports cars used to have what was described as the Italian driving position: designed for short legs. (Simian?) When I got the chance to sit in the driver’s seat of a Lamborghini Countach, I discovered that I really couldn’t drive it. I had to contort myself and bend my knees up around the steering wheel and tilt my feet backward so as not to push on the pedals. My head touched the ceiling, and I actually had to lean it over a bit.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Astronauts and fighter pilots all have been lower in height for the same reasons. I don’t know if that is true anymore.
     
    The Navy uses a system it calls Anthropometrics to determine what aircraft a pilot can fly. During preflight training, each student's body dimensions are measured and he or she is then assigned an anthropometric code that corresponds to his or her measurements.

    The measurements include a sitting height, buttock-knee length, thumb-tip reach, weight and stature. The sitting height makes sure the individual will have sufficient canopy clearance and that he or she will sit tall enough to see outside the cockpit. The buttock-knee length makes sure he or she can work the ejection seat properly and his or her knees won't hit the front edge of the cockpit when departing. Thumb-tip reach measures the individual's ability to reach the controls in the cockpit. Weight and stature measure his or her overall anthropometric compatibility.

    Today's fighters aren't that bad ergonomically, but I've sat in the cockpits of several WW2 fighters and the seating arrangements ranged from not bad (P-51) to dreadful (Spitfire, P-39, Hien, Bf-109). The F6F had the roomiest cockpit with excellent visibility forward. I understand the P-47 cockpit was also very roomy and comfortable, but I've never sat in one.
    Among Viet Nam War-era fighters and attack planes the cockpits of which I have sat in, the F4 had the roomiest cockpit, the F8's was pretty tight and the A4 quite small. The anthropometric system hadn't been instituted in those days and aviators seemed to be assigned to aircraft solely on the Navy's needs at the time. A lot of aircrew were injured ejecting because they snagged a knee or elbow on the way out. That sort of injury doesn't happen any more.

    Here's a declassified regulation showing what anthropometric codes are assigned to certain aircraft. The aviator must have matching codes to be assigned to each aircraft.

    https://i.imgur.com/WBjdGyz.png

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Brutusale

    , @Alfa158
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I never understood the driving position in old Italian cars. The problem is that the steering pedals are too close, but at the same time the steering wheel is tilted and far away, so it’s impossible to get a comfortable compromise seat position. I was born right smack in the middle of Italy and am genetically as Italian as it is possible to get, but even I don’t fit. When I was kid I had a FIAT sports car (charming car, but as we say about Italian cars keeping one going is like building a sand castle with the tide coming in). Driving long distance (long defined as being as long as it would run before needing something done to it) was a pain.
    Italian cars are all made in Northern Italy by the Celtic+Alpine+True Italian hybrids who inhabit the region and those folks must all have the limb proportions of chimps. I have never looked closely at a member of the Agnelli family, maybe they were all 5’4” with 72 inch reaches.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Buzz, plus you couldn't afford it. A litany of reasons why you didn't hit on the gorgeous woman. Stay safe.

  86. @Buffalo Joe
    @Neil Templeton

    Neil, also hard to make tents, robes, blankets etc, out of salmon pelts. Take care.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Bill P

    Joe, salmon tastes like crap when that’s all you have for months on end. Lewis and Clark traded for dog meat to avoid having to eat more salmon.

    • Thanks: Buffalo Joe
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Bill P


    ... tastes like crap when that’s all you have for months on end.
     
    That's pretty much true for anything.
  87. • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Also: "Satoshi Nakamoto is probably not Japanese either, so all his Bitcoins are right fully mine."

    Replies: @Batman

  88. @Anonymous

    Also: “Satoshi Nakamoto is probably not Japanese either, so all his Bitcoins are right fully mine.”

    • Replies: @Batman
    @Steve Sailer

    World War Hair development. Black woman who was obviously resisting arrest gets slammed to the ground by her braids. Blacks outraged.

    https://thegrio.com/2021/10/18/viral-video-louisiana-deputy-shantel-arnold-slammed-by-braids/

  89. @prosa123
    Yuri Gagarin got the honors of being the first human into space because he stood only 5'2". By the time the engineers finished work on the Soviet space capsule it was so cramped that Gagarin and the similarly short Gherman Titov were the only cosmonaut trainees physically able to fit. Titov had been the earlier of the two to start training and normally would have gone first, but the political overseers chose Gagarin because he had a more conventionally Russian-sounding first name.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @rebel yell

    Likewise shorter people make better horse jockeys. As many know income tracks with height, so statistically the taller you are the more money you make. Jockeys and cosmonauts are examples of individuals who buck this trend. Likewise the Chinese acrobat actor in the Ocean movies got the role and made his movie royalties precisely because he was short.
    Height can get you more money in some circumstances, but shortness can get you more money in other circumstances. The instances of height working in your favor simply outnumber the instances where shortness works in your favor.
    All hail Audie Murphy, a great American story.

  90. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Bobby Jones

    "In my observation long term white Texans really are tall people."

    And, based upon a couple years I spent in Callahan County whilst a boy, grim. Especially the women. The women from my father's side of the family were tallish, thin, and grim. The men were much more pleasant, and they all seemed to have guns -- hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols -- in their trucks.

    Replies: @rebel yell

    The men were much more pleasant, and they all seemed to have guns — hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols — in their trucks.

    Cause and effect?

  91. @Bill P
    @Buffalo Joe

    Joe, salmon tastes like crap when that's all you have for months on end. Lewis and Clark traded for dog meat to avoid having to eat more salmon.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    … tastes like crap when that’s all you have for months on end.

    That’s pretty much true for anything.

  92. @very old statistician
    "map of counties where the tall kids are better at getting out of the draft than short kids"

    you were right about Miami in the 80s but you shanked this one

    Replies: @Anon

    Awwww, look, somebody’s insecure about the fact that men in his county are short!

  93. @Wilkey
    In other news, the murderer of University of Utah football player Aaron Lowe has been identified as Buk M. Buk, a black immigrant from Sudan. On October 22, 2018, U of U athlete Lauren McCluskey was murdered by convicted sex offender Melvin Reynolds. On June 17, 2019, U of U student Mackenzie Lueck was murdered by Nigerian immigrant Ayoola Ajayi.

    Three University of Utah students have been murdered in the last three years. All three of them were murdered by black men, and two of them were murdered by African immigrants, in a state that is barely 1% black.

    Meanwhile, in the deep blue city of Philadelphia, a black man by the name of Fishton Ngoy - most often a Congolese name - has been arrested for raping a woman on a commuter train while fellow commuters stood by and did nothing.

    Meanwhile, in Merry Old England, in the pleasant little Whitopia of Leigh-on-Sea (the childhood home of actress Helen Mirren) a Conservative Member of Parliament has been murdered by a Somali immigrant by the name of Ali Harbor Ali, the son of a former high Somali government official.

    The British government is reportedly going to respond by providing armed guards to all of its MPs. No word yet on what they'll be doing to protect the rest of Great Britain from the consequences of the government's own immigration policy. Hopefully they'll come up with something before another 30,000 Africans arrive by boat from France.

    That's all the news for now.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Jack Armstrong, @Alfa158

    Meanwhile, in the deep blue city of Philadelphia, a black man by the name of Fishton Ngoy – most often a Congolese name – has been arrested for raping a woman on a commuter train…

    Was he headed to Fishtown? She sure didn’t want him Upper Darby.

    The thumbnail says “Men Can Stop Rape”, but, unlike that group, this fellow realizes that “creating cultures free of violence” is not the way to go about it:

    Men Can Stop Rape = Crap men on SEPTA. Peeps can not arm!

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Reg Cæsar

    Glad you brought this up.

    So, Sailer-sphere, was the woman black or white?

    Upper Darby sounds posh but the demographics ain't too great:

    https://www.upperdarby.org/businesses/township-demographics

    48% white, 34% AA - not great.

    Replies: @Polistra

  94. @Wilkey
    In other news, the murderer of University of Utah football player Aaron Lowe has been identified as Buk M. Buk, a black immigrant from Sudan. On October 22, 2018, U of U athlete Lauren McCluskey was murdered by convicted sex offender Melvin Reynolds. On June 17, 2019, U of U student Mackenzie Lueck was murdered by Nigerian immigrant Ayoola Ajayi.

    Three University of Utah students have been murdered in the last three years. All three of them were murdered by black men, and two of them were murdered by African immigrants, in a state that is barely 1% black.

    Meanwhile, in the deep blue city of Philadelphia, a black man by the name of Fishton Ngoy - most often a Congolese name - has been arrested for raping a woman on a commuter train while fellow commuters stood by and did nothing.

    Meanwhile, in Merry Old England, in the pleasant little Whitopia of Leigh-on-Sea (the childhood home of actress Helen Mirren) a Conservative Member of Parliament has been murdered by a Somali immigrant by the name of Ali Harbor Ali, the son of a former high Somali government official.

    The British government is reportedly going to respond by providing armed guards to all of its MPs. No word yet on what they'll be doing to protect the rest of Great Britain from the consequences of the government's own immigration policy. Hopefully they'll come up with something before another 30,000 Africans arrive by boat from France.

    That's all the news for now.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Jack Armstrong, @Alfa158

    At least one dead, several injured in on-campus shooting at Grambling State University

    By Gregory Lemos, Alta Spells and Andy Rose, CNN

    Updated 5:36 PM ET, Sun October 17, 2021

    (CNN) —One person has died and seven others were injured in a shooting at Grambling State University in Louisiana early Sunday morning, police and university officials said in a news conference.

    One person died, one is hospitalized in critical condition and six suffered non-life-threatening wounds, Louisiana State Police Master Trooper Michael Reichardt said. Only one of the injured victims was a student.
    “At this point, we have no suspect information for this shooting,” said Reichardt, adding the motive is unknown. “Our investigators are doing everything they can.”

    Master trooper?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Jack Armstrong

    I am baffled by police ... let's go with the word "rape," of long-established military rank systems, but if this is a faithful borrowing, it might come from "master gunner," which is a master in the true medieval craftsman sense of the term, who chose expertise over nominal leadership after enough years that he could be an officer. That sounds like it would be a great idea in police work.

  95. @Trinity
    @Buzz Mohawk

    "Hoss" was more than tall, he was big. I always hated Bonanza. Gawd, that show was so lame even by the standards back then. Everything about the scenery looked so fake and cheap. Liked Gunsmoke which was infinitely a much better show. Dan Blocker was even one episode, of course who didn't appear on Gunsmoke at one time or the other. Even saw good ole "Archie Bunker" on an episode and even "movie star" Charles Bronson. You never really realize how short Charles Bronson was until you saw him next to 6'7" James Arness. Speaking of height and Matt Dillon, I remember seeing the actor Matt Dillon in the Eighties at some bar and the kid was much shorter than his LISTED height of 6' or at least he appeared to be to me at the time. Maybe Matt was a late bloomer. hehe.

    Back to the fictional Matt Dillon, he made Blocker appear even more blockish in appearance. You would not have guessed Blocker was 6'4" next to Arness while Chuck Connors appeared just as tall and in some scenes even taller than Arness. IF Connors was 2" shorter than Arness it sure didn't appear to be the case in those scenes of Gunsmoke that I saw. Who knows about celebrity heights and how legit they are, probably just as phony as the rest of Hollywood. Hell, I never knew The Duke wore a rug until recently. And I would have never guessed Jack Lord of Hawaii Five-O was rocking a piece. I always thought his hair looked to good to be true and it was. haha.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Gary in Gramercy, @Brutusale

    “I don’t like color television. Don’t like that color for nothin’. Saw ‘Bonanza’ at my in-laws, it’s not for me. The Ponderosa looked fake. Hardly recognized Little Joe.”

    (Diner, 1982)

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Gary in Gramercy

    Ah, "Diner", I remember that movie because it was supposed to be set in Baltimore and one of the guys was portraying a rabid Baltimore Colts fan.

    Yeppers, Bonanza had to have the most fake scenery on the planet. I could never watch the show for more than 5 minutes but I loved Gunsmoke.

    I guess Gunsmoke vs. Bonanza goes along with Coke vs. Pepsi, Beatles vs. Stones, Batman vs. Superman, etc., you cannot like both. And I always preferred The Munsters over The Adams Family. haha.

    Replies: @Gary in Gramercy

  96. @Coemgen
    I wonder if the heights were self-reported.

    Anecdotally, me being a native New Englander, Maine-iacs are rather tall and rugged.

    They’re also very plain-spoken as are Canadians from New Brunswick and the Maritimes.

    Texans, well they’re pretty proud of their “tall tales.”

    YMMV

    Replies: @MaineMan, @Brutusale

    I imagine the French-Canadians are weighing down the Maine averages, especially the ones in Northern Maine/along the border. I also doubt that they are self-reported given that these statistics are taken from the military during World War II, important to have as accurate data as possible during the war.

  97. @Reg Cæsar
    @ANON


    I imagine the white/blan/missing counties are just missing data for some reason...
     
    You'd think that homes of universities such as St Lawrence, Clarkson, SUNY Potsdam, and Minnesota-Duluth would have been able to collect data on college-age men. All date to the 19th century.

    Replies: @RedBonnet1

    Maybe the data of those counties were lost somehow.

  98. Anonymous[387] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buzz Mohawk
    @prosa123

    Astronauts and fighter pilots all have been lower in height for the same reasons. I don't know if that is true anymore. What I do know is that in America, if you were a tall pilot, they assigned you to a bomber.

    This is a common theme. The most exotic Italian sports cars used to have what was described as the Italian driving position: designed for short legs. (Simian?) When I got the chance to sit in the driver's seat of a Lamborghini Countach, I discovered that I really couldn't drive it. I had to contort myself and bend my knees up around the steering wheel and tilt my feet backward so as not to push on the pedals. My head touched the ceiling, and I actually had to lean it over a bit.


    http://media.gq.com/photos/559318d17dbd34d650ec858b/master/pass/cars-and-gear-2009-12-stylish-cars-70s-cars-lamborghini1.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Alfa158, @Buffalo Joe

    Astronauts and fighter pilots all have been lower in height for the same reasons. I don’t know if that is true anymore.

    The Navy uses a system it calls Anthropometrics to determine what aircraft a pilot can fly. During preflight training, each student’s body dimensions are measured and he or she is then assigned an anthropometric code that corresponds to his or her measurements.

    The measurements include a sitting height, buttock-knee length, thumb-tip reach, weight and stature. The sitting height makes sure the individual will have sufficient canopy clearance and that he or she will sit tall enough to see outside the cockpit. The buttock-knee length makes sure he or she can work the ejection seat properly and his or her knees won’t hit the front edge of the cockpit when departing. Thumb-tip reach measures the individual’s ability to reach the controls in the cockpit. Weight and stature measure his or her overall anthropometric compatibility.

    Today’s fighters aren’t that bad ergonomically, but I’ve sat in the cockpits of several WW2 fighters and the seating arrangements ranged from not bad (P-51) to dreadful (Spitfire, P-39, Hien, Bf-109). The F6F had the roomiest cockpit with excellent visibility forward. I understand the P-47 cockpit was also very roomy and comfortable, but I’ve never sat in one.
    Among Viet Nam War-era fighters and attack planes the cockpits of which I have sat in, the F4 had the roomiest cockpit, the F8’s was pretty tight and the A4 quite small. The anthropometric system hadn’t been instituted in those days and aviators seemed to be assigned to aircraft solely on the Navy’s needs at the time. A lot of aircrew were injured ejecting because they snagged a knee or elbow on the way out. That sort of injury doesn’t happen any more.

    Here’s a declassified regulation showing what anthropometric codes are assigned to certain aircraft. The aviator must have matching codes to be assigned to each aircraft.

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Anonymous


    Bf-109
     
    Years ago, I got to sit in a BF-109 that was being restored in Chino, CA. Man, that cockpit was tight (I’m 6’2”). I was pretty much stuck once in it and couldn’t move at all. And I couldn’t see jack behind me - really gave me a renewed appreciation for a bubble canopy.

    Those Luftwaffe pilots must have been tiny. I do recall F.W. von Mellenthin writing about being astonished by the large stature of Australian prisoners captured by the Panzerarmee Afrika during World War II. Given that even American and Australian men of the time were relatively short by today’s standards, the Germans of the day must have been quite short.
    , @Brutusale
    @Anonymous

    In his autobiography, Chuck Yeager talked about how the fighter test pilots always got their asses kicked by the bomber test pilots in the beer-fueled brawls at Pancho's because they were much smaller guys.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  99. @Reg Cæsar
    @Altai

    Among the red counties shown are Las Animas, Colorado, hometown of John Gagliardi, the winningest coach in college football history, Marion, W.V., which gave us Mary Lou Retton (Rotunda), Henry Mancini's Beaver, Pa., and Dean Martin's Jefferson, O. (Why DuPage, Ill. is red is for someone else to explain.)


    Iron County, Wisconsin, also in red, attracted not only Italians but Corsicans to the mines. It's noted for its surviving log cabins.

    Replies: @StAugustine

    I flew next to an italian/argentine guy once and I was surprised that he had family up in da UP, as I had thought that the mining up there was being run by Cornish miners. He said no, the Cornish were there but the Italians had more know how and were the ones in charge – Iron, copper, tin up there, and the Cornish miners were more coal miners.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @StAugustine


    I flew next to an italian/argentine guy once and I was surprised that he had family up in da UP, as I had thought that the mining up there was being run by Cornish miners. He said no, the Cornish were there but the Italians had more know how and were the ones in charge – Iron, copper, tin up there, and the Cornish miners were more coal miners.

     

    Finns, too. I've eaten what appeared to be pasties in Finland. I've wondered if Finnish miners picked this up from their Cornish colleagues and brought it home. Lots of Italians went to mine in Scotland, Wales, and Sweden.

    However, the Cornish have been mining tin since Roman times, so they should have learned the business by now.

    The Argentine I met on Amtrak was of Japanese descent; his wife, also present, was more typical of the country. IIRC, he said he played rugby in his youth.

    Replies: @Bill P

  100. @AnotherDad
    No huge surprises here. Germanics--especially Germans on the farm--taller than more recent immigrants groups back east. And of course, Indians and Mexicans are not tall.

    The interesting thing that struck me is how well the Scots-Irish did in the piedmont/mountains of NC and upstate SC and on through other areas of the south. (But ho-hum in WV.) It can't be driven by blacks as the effects dies away in very heavily black areas of the tidewater or the Delta region of Mississippi. This for guys who grew up during the depression in the relatively poor South.

    I think Texas whites are--traditionally--a combination of Southern whites--skewing more toward frontiersy Scots-Irish--whites, plus Germanics (e.g. Nimitz).

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Anonymous, @additionalMike, @Rebel Roy, @Matttt

    AnotherDad you forget that Whites who made/make up the South were/are Germanics.Southern people are Anglo-Saxon.Angles,Saxons and Jutes displaced the Celts in England.Our people(whats left of us)have the same racial makeup as people who came to America directly from Germany or Austria or Norway etc.Saying Scots/Irish when talking about those who colonized America doesn’t mean Celts but Germanic peoples.We are tall because our great Viking and German ancestors were good stock.

  101. @Trinity
    REAL life cowboy member of "The Hole In The Wall Gang," Ben Kilpatrick was nicknamed "The Tall Texan" and stood 6'2". Nowadays standing 6' 2" would be considered somewhat tall but it sure wouldn't get you a nickname like Stretch or "The Tall Texan." I was thinking maybe the actor Ted Cassidy all 6'9" of him played The Tall Texan in the movie, "Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid," but it appears Cassidy was playing the part of some real life cowpoke named Harvey Logan.

    Cassidy has to be one of the largest if not the largest REEL cowpokes to ever grace the screen. Pretty big when you consider some big fellers have eaten beans by the campfire over the years. Not only do you have The Duke and James Arness, but you had Chuck Connors, Fess Parker, Clint Walker who all were 6'5" or better. Eastwood at 6'4"? I don't see it. That has to be an exaggeration even in his prime years.

    Replies: @SteveRogers42, @Mike Tre, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Here is Wayne and Eastwood next to each other, and it appears you may be right about Eastwood’s height being exaggerated. This photo appears to be on the set of Wayne’s last movie The Shootist, so in his mid 70’s, Wayne wouldn’t have been at his tallest but his boots may have gave him an inch or two as well.

    • Thanks: Trinity
    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Mike Tre

    The thing about Wayne and height was I read that Big John was a heavy smoker. IF I am not mistaken I read that Wayne started smoking as a teenager and smoked between 3 to 5 packs of cigarettes a day. So much for cigarettes stunting someone's growth. haha.

    Another poster claimed that heavy manual work would stunt a child's growth?? Nah, I think it would actually have the opposite effect IF the kid received adequate nutrition and enough rest to recover. Used to be a common myth was that weight training done as a child or early teens would stunt someone's growth. I have known people who started weight training as 12-13 year old kids and who are well above 6' tall. I think the myth about weights stunting growth has to do with a lot of short people gravitate towards lifting weights because they are small and want to become bigger or that in the sports of Olympic lifting and powerlifting sometimes short arms and short bodies can be advantageous. However, short arms won't do much good in the deadlift. Ernie Pickett was a world class Olympic weightlifter who was 6'4 1/2" tall, Ken Patera was 6'2" and that strong guy from Iceland nicknamed "Thor" is like 6'9". So much for that myth.

    Same thing about the myth concerning wearing hats and baldness. The reason that myth got started is that bald guys are often wearing hats all the time because they are bald. My uncle wore a ball cap 24/7, hell I think the guy might have slept in it, but he had a head full of hair his whole life.

    In regards to milk and growth. What about super tall Black basketball players and milk? Milk is not a huge staple in the African In America community and yet Negroes are probably slightly taller than the average White in America. Another thing is that milk is supposed to be good for teeth and bones which I think is somewhat provable except in the case of Negroes. Negroes on average of very straight, real white and strong looking teeth and yet you don't see a lot of Negroes pounding the cow juice. Hell I have yet to see a Negro in a dentist office.

    Replies: @Polistra

  102. Very iSteveish, the Somali murderer of MP Sir David Amess is the son of a former aide to the Somali PM.

  103. @Trinity
    Doesn't matter how much beef or milk you drink, your height is determined ALMOST entirely by genetics. I often wondered IF certain exercises or activities would make someone taller. One would think that MAYBE IF someone were to start an activity like swimming as a youngster before puberty hit IF it might give someone a few extra inches in height. In regards to WWII enlistees, Texans and height. The most decorated soldier of that period was from Texas but he was far from being tall. Hell, he wasn't even close to average in height and he wasn't a Mexican but a gringo. He was Audie Murphy, all 5'5" in height. Freddie Patek, best known for his time spent playing shortstop for the Kansas City Royals in the 1970s was also from Texas and was also short. Patek was one of the shortest guys to ever play in MLB IF not the shortest. "The Flea" aka Patek stood 5'4" to 5'5" depending on the source. Imagine Freddie Patek lined up next to the Washington Monument known as Frank Howard and guessing that both these men made their living in the same sport.

    I saw lots of HUGE people both in height and girth while living in Nebraska. I imagine Minnesota and the Upper Midwest would be full of huge people of Polish, Scandinavian or German descent. German genes, man, those Germans do have great genes. Yep, flyover country Whites probably make East Coast and West Coast hipsters look pretty small and weak. Hell, even Southerners make the Coast Elites look small and weak.

    Replies: @2BR, @Escher, @Known Fact, @Ed Case, @TWS, @kaganovitch

    Doesn’t matter how much beef or milk you drink, your height is determined ALMOST entirely by genetics.

    Yes and no.
    If a child isn’t introduced to meat early, he’s not going to reach his genetic potential, whatever that is.

    My uncle is 6’6”, now 86, brought up on a dairy farm all he was fed as a baby was brains and minced meat.
    They ate butter and cream, but the idea of drinking milk was laughed at, that’s what the pigs were fed.
    His 2 much younger brothers grew up in town drinking milk and eating bread and vegetables, they’re both shortarses.

  104. @Jonathan Mason
    Moses Austin never got to see the promised land of Tejas, but his son Stephen F. got the job done by bringing in initially 300 families, who may have been selected for being good physical types, not so much so that they could work the land, as keep order in the sizable enslaved population that was essential to Austin's plans for the development of Texas once the indigenous population had been massacred by the settlers.

    Stephen F. eventually fell out with the Mexican government over the issue of slavery, which the Mexican government wished to abolish pronto and which Steven felt was essential to the prosperity of Texas. (Sounds like a familiar story, huh?)

    Eventually he led a revolution which ended up with the founding of the independent slave state of Texas, which later joined the United Slave States.

    Since Texas had a lot of cattle, the kids probably had plenty of milk and grew up tall and strong with all that calcium for their growing bones.

    Although a lot of what he did would be defined as crimes against humanity by the standards of today, Stephen F. Austin still has public buildings, schools, and hotels named after him, as well as the capital city of Texas.

    Replies: @Dan Hayes, @Ed Case

    Since Texas had a lot of cattle, the kids probably had plenty of milk and grew up tall and strong with all that calcium for their growing bones.

    Milk drinking is a recent madness, during the times you are speaking of the calves got the milk on beef ranches and milk was fed to pigs on dairy farms.
    Calcium in milk isn’t bioavailable to humans anyway, so it has no positive effect on growth, though it may have a negative effect.

  105. @Trinity
    REAL life cowboy member of "The Hole In The Wall Gang," Ben Kilpatrick was nicknamed "The Tall Texan" and stood 6'2". Nowadays standing 6' 2" would be considered somewhat tall but it sure wouldn't get you a nickname like Stretch or "The Tall Texan." I was thinking maybe the actor Ted Cassidy all 6'9" of him played The Tall Texan in the movie, "Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid," but it appears Cassidy was playing the part of some real life cowpoke named Harvey Logan.

    Cassidy has to be one of the largest if not the largest REEL cowpokes to ever grace the screen. Pretty big when you consider some big fellers have eaten beans by the campfire over the years. Not only do you have The Duke and James Arness, but you had Chuck Connors, Fess Parker, Clint Walker who all were 6'5" or better. Eastwood at 6'4"? I don't see it. That has to be an exaggeration even in his prime years.

    Replies: @SteveRogers42, @Mike Tre, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    In his excellent book, “John Wayne’s America”, Pulitzer Prize winning author Gary Wills makes mention that John Wayne wasn’t 6’4″. He stood that in his cowboy boots. In the mid ’20’s while on the USC Trojans roster, Wayne was listed at 6’1.5″. With street shoes he would stand about 6’2″. But 6’2″ back 100 yrs ago was extremely tall, much as 6’5″ would be today. In fact you can see it when he is with other actors of around 6’1″ or 6’2″ and he’s not wearing boots. He’s clearly not 6’4″ unless in boots.

    In fact, there’s a famous picture in the mid. ’40’s, with Gary Cooper and John Wayne both actors standing right next to each other. John Wayne is wearing regular shoes, and so is Cooper. Cooper is clearly taller than Wayne by at least 2 inches. And Gary Cooper was always listed at 6’3″.

    Eastwood is definitely tall, easily 6’3″ at least so perhaps the extra inch from shoes/boots makes him 6’4″ but it’s more believable with him than with Wayne.

  106. @Trinity
    @2BR

    Yeah, I think I read that the huge James Arness was wounded in WWII, that explains the limp. No doubt that Arness presented a HUGE target whereas Murphy presented almost no target. haha.

    It even used to be common knowledge back in the day that heavyweight boxers shouldn't be extremely large men but only big enough in the range of maybe 6'1" to 6'3" at the tallest and maybe about 210-220lbs or so. The reason given or reasons given were that really big men would be too ponderous and slow, not move well, lack stamina and even thought to lack the killer instinct. That theory has been blown out the water since Lennox Lewis.

    Not that back in the day they did not have huge fighters because they did, only those guys couldn't move, didn't have the right skillset or they were lacking in other areas. Guys like Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, Ray Impellitterre, Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, Jim Beattie ( who played Jess Willard in The Great White Hope) was even bigger than Willard. Beattie stood 6'9" and boxed in the 1960s and 1970s. And where was Beattie from? Minnesota. But Beattie sounds Irish and not Viking. hehe. Interesting that Carnera and Impellitterre would fight each other with Carnera scoring a knockout victory. Impellitterre was nicknamed, "The Skyscraper." Either the "big guys" have gotten better or the "small guys" have gotten worse? I think it is a little of both.

    Replies: @Ed Case, @Feryl

    Gunboat Smith fought Willard and estimated his height to be at least 6’10”.
    There’s a picture of the training camp for the Carnera Baer bout, Willard is on the left of the picture with knees bent and Carnera on the extreme right and Willard still appears much bigger than Carnera.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Ed Case

    Well since this thread mentioned The Duke and Tommy "The Duke" Morrison was a boxer and a distant relative of John Wayne. I remember when Morrison fought a boxer who was 7 feet tall named Marselles Brown. Morrison dispatched the extremely tall but RELATIVELY lean journeyman in pretty easy fashion despite being at an extreme disadvantage in reach and height. Like I say, these HUGE guys have been around forever, only relatively lately in the last couple of decades have they made any noise.

    Carnera was listed at 6'5 3/4" and lately I have seen people listing him at up to 6'7" even. Willard has almost always been listed at 6'6 1/4". Both guys were not fighters but both did remarkably well considering Willard started awful late, never liked the fight game and was stiff as a board. Willard did have a punch and even killed a man in the ring IF I am not mistaken.

    Carnera? Well, considering Carnera's goons never even cared if he trained and that Carnera never even learned the basics, he did well enough considering all the killers and talented fighters he met. Sure thing some of the fights were fixed but Jack Sharkey on his deathbed said the second Carnera fight was on the level. And imagine a guy with no formal boxing training to speak of surviving against a prime Joe Louis for 6 rounds. Carnera vs. Baer? Carnera suffered a severe ankle injury in the second round following one of 11 knockdowns at the hands of Baer that night. that is the reason he can be seen staggering all over the ring against Baer. And for such a huge guy, Carnera had great stamina, and was RELATIVELY agile. He lacked a punch, chin, but not heart. One of the most courageous fighters ever to step in the ring with a Joe Louis and little without ever learning how to box. The people that USED UP Carnera are hopefully resting in Hell.

    RIP to Carnera, Morrison, Jack Sharkey, and Willard.

    Replies: @Cowtown Rebel, @additionalMike

  107. @Anon
    @guest007

    There was an article the other day about a Tennessee almost-all-night burger restaurant limiting its hours because of unruly customers harassing staff and skipping out without paying, and guns materializing. They also are prohibiting customers "under 18."

    Huh? Are these white customers? No mention of race, of course. There was a mention of a murder outside the restaurant however. As Steve has noticed, murders tend to be accompanied by high quality data. I searched and found a mugshot. Sure enough, a black guy.

    The article also mentioned the Red Rooster Burgers and Brew chain also banning customers under 18. "Among other things, the restaurant's owners accused young customers of throwing fries at employees and sticking candy to the ceilings." Does that smell black or white to you? I'm not sure. It's less of a racial marker than skipping out on the bill.

    But in general, young, and not so young, blacks tend to have broken through some sort of behavioral control barrier post-George Floyd, settling on a new average that is considerably more unpleasant than before and which impacts white people to a greater extent.

    Different topic: Post Netflix-Chappelle, I went to check out the supposed annual massacre of trans people. It turns out to be a paltry couple of dozen a year, and they are mostly urban blacks in the South, and the factual circumstances tend to not be clearly transphobic in nature, with drug deals and personal beefs with friends and acquaintances often involved. Other people on the list are not even clearly trans, but, for instance, might be natal female presenting as feminine female, but reported to have used they/them pronouns and flirted with labels such as nonbinary or genderqueer.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @stillCARealist

    The homosexual advocate’s explanation for gay deaths is lack of wider societal acceptance, so they try to never mention that trannies have always been maximally volatile people, as the wrong costume would lead anyone to believe. We ought to be seeing a huge drop in tranny suicide and death.

  108. Hugh Hewitt just now: send money to Haiti.
    Also Hugh Hewitt just now: pray for our kidnapped missionaries in Haiti, oh and now that this happened we will need to send more money to Haiti. Actual Hewitt legalism: “Haiti is becoming Somalia.”

  109. @Jack Armstrong
    @Wilkey


    At least one dead, several injured in on-campus shooting at Grambling State University

    By Gregory Lemos, Alta Spells and Andy Rose, CNN

    Updated 5:36 PM ET, Sun October 17, 2021


    (CNN) —One person has died and seven others were injured in a shooting at Grambling State University in Louisiana early Sunday morning, police and university officials said in a news conference.

    One person died, one is hospitalized in critical condition and six suffered non-life-threatening wounds, Louisiana State Police Master Trooper Michael Reichardt said. Only one of the injured victims was a student.
    "At this point, we have no suspect information for this shooting," said Reichardt, adding the motive is unknown. "Our investigators are doing everything they can."
     

    Master trooper?

    Replies: @J.Ross

    I am baffled by police … let’s go with the word “rape,” of long-established military rank systems, but if this is a faithful borrowing, it might come from “master gunner,” which is a master in the true medieval craftsman sense of the term, who chose expertise over nominal leadership after enough years that he could be an officer. That sounds like it would be a great idea in police work.

  110. @Yancey Ward
    @Bill P

    Or cattlemen have much better diets.

    Replies: @LP5

    Or cattlemen have much better diets.

    Cattle drives with cookie manning the chuck wagon, supplementing the beans, biscuits, corn bread and other grub with a tasty barbecue of any steers that broke a leg. Were the rest of the herd motivated by the sight or smell of dinner on the Chisholm trail?

    Modern cowboys have F-250s with coolers for those Lone Star longnecks, Shiner Bocks or similar brews. YTMV

  111. Maybe it was the hats. Have you ever heard the term of disparagement, “He’s all hat and no cattle” ?

  112. @Trinity
    @Buzz Mohawk

    "Hoss" was more than tall, he was big. I always hated Bonanza. Gawd, that show was so lame even by the standards back then. Everything about the scenery looked so fake and cheap. Liked Gunsmoke which was infinitely a much better show. Dan Blocker was even one episode, of course who didn't appear on Gunsmoke at one time or the other. Even saw good ole "Archie Bunker" on an episode and even "movie star" Charles Bronson. You never really realize how short Charles Bronson was until you saw him next to 6'7" James Arness. Speaking of height and Matt Dillon, I remember seeing the actor Matt Dillon in the Eighties at some bar and the kid was much shorter than his LISTED height of 6' or at least he appeared to be to me at the time. Maybe Matt was a late bloomer. hehe.

    Back to the fictional Matt Dillon, he made Blocker appear even more blockish in appearance. You would not have guessed Blocker was 6'4" next to Arness while Chuck Connors appeared just as tall and in some scenes even taller than Arness. IF Connors was 2" shorter than Arness it sure didn't appear to be the case in those scenes of Gunsmoke that I saw. Who knows about celebrity heights and how legit they are, probably just as phony as the rest of Hollywood. Hell, I never knew The Duke wore a rug until recently. And I would have never guessed Jack Lord of Hawaii Five-O was rocking a piece. I always thought his hair looked to good to be true and it was. haha.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Gary in Gramercy, @Brutusale

    Chuck Connors was 6’6″. He played basketball for the Boston Celtics before his acting career.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Connors

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Brutusale

    I see Chuck Connors also played in MLB and is one of only 13 people who can claim to have played in the NBA and MLB. It says in Wiki that Connor played for the Dodgers and Cubs, I could have swore he played a brief time for the Athletics as well. Will have to do a search on that.

    I also heard a rumor that "The Rifleman" made some porn movies and that he MIGHT have been gay. Have no idea whether the porn is ALLEGED to be straight porn or gay porn, but you have to wonder if his screen name was "The Rifleman" in the porn industry. hehe.

    Connors was a big guy and athletic looking, and obviously he was athletic being a good enough athlete to make it to the NBA and MLB. In the Gunsmoke episode I saw Connor play in he was cast as a prizefighter who was bullying a meek fellow into a fight. Marshall Dillon steps in of course and it is he and Connor who engage in a bit of fisticuffs and not the meek guy. Of course Matt takes out a professional prizefighter, did Matt ever lose a fight or a gun fight? haha.Yeah, Connors looked every bit as James Arness.

    Replies: @Brutusale, @Buzz Mohawk

  113. @Coemgen
    I wonder if the heights were self-reported.

    Anecdotally, me being a native New Englander, Maine-iacs are rather tall and rugged.

    They’re also very plain-spoken as are Canadians from New Brunswick and the Maritimes.

    Texans, well they’re pretty proud of their “tall tales.”

    YMMV

    Replies: @MaineMan, @Brutusale

    Outside the thin coastal strip from Freeport to the NH border, Maine is Appalachia.

    Back when I was selling packaging, one of my accounts was the largest meatpacker in New England. They made a product called Macaroni & Cheese Loaf. The purchasing manager told me that it was essentially cheap protein for the poor people living “up the county”.

    https://www.kayem.com/products/macaroni-cheese-loaf/

    My first visit to my customer’s main facility put me right off deli meats for a long time.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Brutusale

    This may explain why down here in the lower parts of New England (less "Down East" than Maine) people from that state are sometimes referred to as Big Ass Mainers. I've heard it now and then, but I don't know why. Now maybe I do?... (I did briefly date, yes, a girl from Skowhegan, Maine. She did not have a particularly large behind, but she wasn't Nicole Kidman either.)


    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/d4/ab/4cd4abb89e9d0e60db4a4ef72e7978a2.jpg
    Eyes Wide Shut

    The thing I like about Maine is that the L.L. Bean store is open 24/7/365. I once drove up there on my way to Bar Harbor and stopped at the store right about midnight. It was open, and I wandered around and looked at all the stuff I'd seen in catalogues since I was a kid. Then I drove on.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Brutusale


    Outside the thin coastal strip from Freeport to the NH border, Maine is Appalachia.

     

    Geologically, yes. My experience in the Coast Guard was that the coastal Mainers were much more rustic than the inland ones. Perhaps that impression was enhanced by their weird accent, in places like Wockwand and Wockpawt. It could also have been selection bias. Inland Mainers sound like New Hampshiremen. My two closest shipmates had these very different speech ways-- and they grew up five miles apart.

    However, there may have been some selection bias. Perhaps a different kind of Down Easterner joined the Coast Guard compared with the mountain man.

    A Southern poet resettled in Maine not too long ago. She said her neighbors were just hillbillies with different accents.

  114. My own experience is that the farther south and west you go the fewer Italians, Portuguese and Spaniards there are. The Med countries tend to be pretty short.

    The Midwest has always been considered to be a tall place to us northeastern/mid-Atlantic folks.

  115. @Anon
    @guest007

    There was an article the other day about a Tennessee almost-all-night burger restaurant limiting its hours because of unruly customers harassing staff and skipping out without paying, and guns materializing. They also are prohibiting customers "under 18."

    Huh? Are these white customers? No mention of race, of course. There was a mention of a murder outside the restaurant however. As Steve has noticed, murders tend to be accompanied by high quality data. I searched and found a mugshot. Sure enough, a black guy.

    The article also mentioned the Red Rooster Burgers and Brew chain also banning customers under 18. "Among other things, the restaurant's owners accused young customers of throwing fries at employees and sticking candy to the ceilings." Does that smell black or white to you? I'm not sure. It's less of a racial marker than skipping out on the bill.

    But in general, young, and not so young, blacks tend to have broken through some sort of behavioral control barrier post-George Floyd, settling on a new average that is considerably more unpleasant than before and which impacts white people to a greater extent.

    Different topic: Post Netflix-Chappelle, I went to check out the supposed annual massacre of trans people. It turns out to be a paltry couple of dozen a year, and they are mostly urban blacks in the South, and the factual circumstances tend to not be clearly transphobic in nature, with drug deals and personal beefs with friends and acquaintances often involved. Other people on the list are not even clearly trans, but, for instance, might be natal female presenting as feminine female, but reported to have used they/them pronouns and flirted with labels such as nonbinary or genderqueer.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @stillCARealist

    But in general, young, and not so young, blacks tend to have broken through some sort of behavioral control barrier post-George Floyd, settling on a new average that is considerably more unpleasant than before and which impacts white people to a greater extent.

    A friend was telling me about Tik Tok challenges that rebellious kids are into these days. Outrageous behavior along with daring vandalism makes them popular on social media for a few minutes. Stuff like trashing a school bathroom, slapping a teacher, digging up a signpost. I imagine that the more criminally minded youths come up with even scarier stunts to pull, and some of those put people in the hospital or the morgue.

  116. @SunBakedSuburb
    @AndrewR

    "only steers and queers come from Texas"

    At boot camp I received a similar response from my CC after he asked where I was from: "Only fruits and nuts come from California." I answered sir yes sir then began a soliloquy on California's rich and diverse agricultural bounty. It turned out to be a golden afternoon at Cape May.

    Replies: @Trinity

    Ah, a Coastie in the crowd. Charlie company here. YN1 Bragg was the CC. A Black woman as a company commander. haha. She later had assistance from a White BMC. Go figure, yet another qualified White male doing the ACTUAL JOB of an affirmative action Black and a Black female at that. And this was almost 40 years ago. We see how bad the military has become since then.

    As I remember every CC at the time was a Chief Petty Officer except the golden Bragg, the only one ranked lower than an E7 in the bunch.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @Trinity

    When I wanted to join the military, my first thought was the Coast Guard. Having spent so much time around the Great Lakes, how could it not have been?

    I called the recruiter and apparently he had met his quota for the month because, before learning anything about me, he told me to "try the Navy or Air Force."

    In retrospect, I should have grilled him a lot harder, but I ended up talking to an AF recruiter. I read study guides for the ASVAB and I ended up getting a perfect score: 99s across the board. I feel safe in assuming I could have gotten into the Coast Guard, and I would have waited for a slot to open.

    Oh well; hindsight is 20/20. I would never encourage anyone to enlist in 2021, but I have fond memories of my AF service, and I learned a lot.

    Replies: @Trinity

  117. One consequence of being right at the average height for adult men is that I hardly ever notice the heights of other people unless they’re unusually tall or short

  118. @Brutusale
    @Trinity

    Chuck Connors was 6'6". He played basketball for the Boston Celtics before his acting career.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Connors

    Replies: @Trinity

    I see Chuck Connors also played in MLB and is one of only 13 people who can claim to have played in the NBA and MLB. It says in Wiki that Connor played for the Dodgers and Cubs, I could have swore he played a brief time for the Athletics as well. Will have to do a search on that.

    I also heard a rumor that “The Rifleman” made some porn movies and that he MIGHT have been gay. Have no idea whether the porn is ALLEGED to be straight porn or gay porn, but you have to wonder if his screen name was “The Rifleman” in the porn industry. hehe.

    Connors was a big guy and athletic looking, and obviously he was athletic being a good enough athlete to make it to the NBA and MLB. In the Gunsmoke episode I saw Connor play in he was cast as a prizefighter who was bullying a meek fellow into a fight. Marshall Dillon steps in of course and it is he and Connor who engage in a bit of fisticuffs and not the meek guy. Of course Matt takes out a professional prizefighter, did Matt ever lose a fight or a gun fight? haha.Yeah, Connors looked every bit as James Arness.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @Trinity

    Yeah, and I also sold packaging to one of the other 12 NBA/MLB players, a colorful guy named Gene Conley. Gene was the first one to tell me that one of the other 12, Danny Ainge, would be playing in the NBA because he couldn't handle any decent breaking ball.

    Replies: @Trinity

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @Trinity

    Chuck Connors kissed my mom.

    When I was a kid and The Rifleman was a popular TV show that I watched, Connors happened to be having dinner in the same restaurant as my parents one night. My Mom swooned when she told the story about meeting him and him kissing her.

    Dad was evidently okay with it, understandably. He gave me a Winchester BB gun soon after, so I guess it was all good.


    https://media.tenor.com/images/bf700aa2e6625a9df5ff7d3462ee377a/tenor.gif

    Replies: @Trinity, @Jim Don Bob

  119. Who wants to bet the go to regime line is that Powell died because he had not yet received the sacred booster dose of the vaccine yet? I wonder what they treated him with? Any discussion of normal life expectancy will be completely verboten.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/colin-powell-dead-covid-19-former-secretary-of-state

  120. @Bill P
    My pet theory is that cattle ranching selects for height. Cultures that rely heavily on cattle tend to be relatively tall, and Texas was settled in large part by cow people.

    I got this theory by observing the local Dutch dairymen where I live. They are huge. African cow people are also tall. I think it must make the job much easier. Cows can easily trample little people, who have a hard time seeing over them.

    Replies: @Yancey Ward, @Steve-O, @Charlotte, @Alice in Wonderland, @Old and Grumpy, @Lagertha, @Joe Paluka

    Tall and strong help in livestock farming. Compare that to something like mining. Height would be a liability. Nor if you were a tall man would you want to mine. Outdoor work would be more appealing. It also follows that tall men tend have tall children. One thing I realized while raising replacement heifers for our dairy farm, male genetics have a far bigger impact than females on the quality of replacement stock. And yes, meat and milk do make the person. There is a physical difference between those who are lactose tolerant, and those who are not.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Old and Grumpy

    That's what I thought. People who raise cattle probably self-select to a degree as well. If you were the runt of the litter in a family of tall ranchers, wouldn't you be more likely to seek your fortune elsewhere? Maybe you'd head to California and give prospecting a try.

    , @Yngvar
    @Old and Grumpy


    There is a physical difference between those who are lactose tolerant, and those who are not.
     
    What's the magic in lactose, it's just a sugar?
  121. @Gary in Gramercy
    @Trinity

    "I don't like color television. Don't like that color for nothin'. Saw 'Bonanza' at my in-laws, it's not for me. The Ponderosa looked fake. Hardly recognized Little Joe."

    (Diner, 1982)

    Replies: @Trinity

    Ah, “Diner”, I remember that movie because it was supposed to be set in Baltimore and one of the guys was portraying a rabid Baltimore Colts fan.

    Yeppers, Bonanza had to have the most fake scenery on the planet. I could never watch the show for more than 5 minutes but I loved Gunsmoke.

    I guess Gunsmoke vs. Bonanza goes along with Coke vs. Pepsi, Beatles vs. Stones, Batman vs. Superman, etc., you cannot like both. And I always preferred The Munsters over The Adams Family. haha.

    • Replies: @Gary in Gramercy
    @Trinity

    It took some searching, but I found the relevant scene:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyYNeA4p4F8

  122. Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?

    Could be the inverse of what I experienced when I moved to Sodom on Hudson. The place was awash with so many Jews and Chinamen that the average height was about 5 foot 6. I was happy to see so many very attractive tall women looking for a guy they could literally look up to.

    Could also be a sampling bias. The shifty, shirking types (See Jews and Chinamen) are less likely to show up to sign up?

  123. Height comes from growth. Growth happens in growth plates in juveniles’ knees.

    The plates shut down (close) naturally around 2 years after puberty.

    Stress will close them down earlier. Repetitive motion stress, or lifting heavy loads, will do it. And it happens A LOT! Societies where children are put to work will be shorter.

    When England banned child labor, England got taller.

    The map above can be interpreted as what areas work their kids. Tall Texans means they are nice to their kids. Being nice to the kids comes from prosperity. Prosperity results in fewer kids, and TALLER kids.

    Generally speaking, heredity is NOT the limiting factor on a population’s height. Nor is food.

  124. @Anon
    When my family moved from the north to the south during my teenage years, I noticed that all of a sudden the average person was taller. I was no longer the tallest kid in my class.

    Farther south you get, the more Vitamin D exposure you have, which helps your height. Secondly, a good bone-building diet of milk and meat from your ranch or farm helps a lot. Having Northern European ancestry is also useful. I spent my childhood in the Rust Belt, and it was quite plain that the Eastern Europeans who migrated there were shorter than American Southerners.

    Southerners tend to run to a long, lanky type that is obviously Scotch-Irish. Scottish people used to be the tallest in Europe, although Continentals are now catching up because of better diet. Continentals didn't used to drink milk past childhood, but they have changed their habits so they eat lots of yogurt these days.

    The shortest people I've seen recently are Central Americans. I've come across people from Honduras who are mind-bogglingly short, as in come-up-to-my-ribcage-pygmy-short, and I'm not sure if it's lousy diet or Indian ancestry.

    Northeast cities were rickets territory in the late 1800s to first half of the 1900s. No sunlight in the slums, no milk in the diet for the kids.

    Replies: @Savage Indifference

    “I’ve come across people from Honduras who are mind-bogglingly short …”

    But very strong, with strong legs fantastically good at climbing trees and doing tree work. A crew of Central Americans once took down a senescent tallow tree (uuggh) for me, and the last thing to cut was the stump at the base, almost a couple feet across/ three feet high. The brawniest of the men – all my height or shorter – heaved that stump on his back and carried it to the trailer. I hated to see that. I felt that doing that way must surely shorten his working years.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Savage Indifference

    A crew of Central Americans once took down a senescent tallow tree (uuggh) for me, and the last thing to cut was the stump at the base, almost a couple feet across/ three feet high. The brawniest of the men – all my height or shorter – heaved that stump on his back and carried it to the trailer. I hated to see that. I felt that doing that way must surely shorten his working years.

    Are you sure about the measurements? That has to be almost 600 pounds!

    , @Neil Templeton
    @Savage Indifference

    On the other hand, he probably got laid that night.

  125. @Buzz Mohawk
    @prosa123

    Astronauts and fighter pilots all have been lower in height for the same reasons. I don't know if that is true anymore. What I do know is that in America, if you were a tall pilot, they assigned you to a bomber.

    This is a common theme. The most exotic Italian sports cars used to have what was described as the Italian driving position: designed for short legs. (Simian?) When I got the chance to sit in the driver's seat of a Lamborghini Countach, I discovered that I really couldn't drive it. I had to contort myself and bend my knees up around the steering wheel and tilt my feet backward so as not to push on the pedals. My head touched the ceiling, and I actually had to lean it over a bit.


    http://media.gq.com/photos/559318d17dbd34d650ec858b/master/pass/cars-and-gear-2009-12-stylish-cars-70s-cars-lamborghini1.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Alfa158, @Buffalo Joe

    I never understood the driving position in old Italian cars. The problem is that the steering pedals are too close, but at the same time the steering wheel is tilted and far away, so it’s impossible to get a comfortable compromise seat position. I was born right smack in the middle of Italy and am genetically as Italian as it is possible to get, but even I don’t fit. When I was kid I had a FIAT sports car (charming car, but as we say about Italian cars keeping one going is like building a sand castle with the tide coming in). Driving long distance (long defined as being as long as it would run before needing something done to it) was a pain.
    Italian cars are all made in Northern Italy by the Celtic+Alpine+True Italian hybrids who inhabit the region and those folks must all have the limb proportions of chimps. I have never looked closely at a member of the Agnelli family, maybe they were all 5’4” with 72 inch reaches.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Alfa158

    Thank you for your reply. It is very interesting and fun to hear from someone who was born and lived right there in the middle of Italy. I knew your name, "Alfa158," had to have meaning.


    https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/6/Alfa-Romeo-158--Alfetta-_18.jpg

    Italian Futurism might have had something to do with what we are talking about.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BvVJKVhehw0/TdxNNLmyAmI/AAAAAAAACiI/XtwLhRGIsDc/s1600/Ugo-Gianattasio-untitled-racecar-1920.jpg
    The idea of speed and dynamism expressed in art and design. That took hold in Italy in the first half of the 20th Century and lead to the creation of wonderful art and design.

    There was that and the willingness to suffer for style and fashion. See "The Cruel Shoes," by Steve Martin.

    Replies: @slumber_j

  126. @Wilkey
    In other news, the murderer of University of Utah football player Aaron Lowe has been identified as Buk M. Buk, a black immigrant from Sudan. On October 22, 2018, U of U athlete Lauren McCluskey was murdered by convicted sex offender Melvin Reynolds. On June 17, 2019, U of U student Mackenzie Lueck was murdered by Nigerian immigrant Ayoola Ajayi.

    Three University of Utah students have been murdered in the last three years. All three of them were murdered by black men, and two of them were murdered by African immigrants, in a state that is barely 1% black.

    Meanwhile, in the deep blue city of Philadelphia, a black man by the name of Fishton Ngoy - most often a Congolese name - has been arrested for raping a woman on a commuter train while fellow commuters stood by and did nothing.

    Meanwhile, in Merry Old England, in the pleasant little Whitopia of Leigh-on-Sea (the childhood home of actress Helen Mirren) a Conservative Member of Parliament has been murdered by a Somali immigrant by the name of Ali Harbor Ali, the son of a former high Somali government official.

    The British government is reportedly going to respond by providing armed guards to all of its MPs. No word yet on what they'll be doing to protect the rest of Great Britain from the consequences of the government's own immigration policy. Hopefully they'll come up with something before another 30,000 Africans arrive by boat from France.

    That's all the news for now.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Jack Armstrong, @Alfa158

    Eric Striker said everything that needs to be said about Ames with that one photo in his post about the murder. He didn’t even really need to add any text.
    https://www.unz.com/estriker/uk-conservative-mp-stabbed-to-death-by-somali-was-a-strong-supporter-of-black-lives-matter/

  127. OT: In Hidden Figures news, Lucy was successfully launched and will explore the Trojan asteroids!

    The Trojan asteroids were theorized by the famous Italian mathematician Joseph-Louis Lagrange, who showed that there were areas just ahead and just behind planets that could accumulate asteroids. As you might guess, they are named after famous men in the Trojan war, like Hektor, Patroclus, Agamemnon and so forth.

    Lockheed Martin designed and built a space craft, which was launched yesterday by NASA.

    So what about those black girls at NASA? And what about Lucy?

    Lucy is an unusual name for a space craft. Is it an acronym? No!

    The Lucy mission is named after the fossilized skeleton of an early hominid found in Ethiopia on Nov 24, 1974 by Donald Johanson and Tom Gray. That Lucy in turn was named by expedition member Pamela Alderman after a celebratory evening dancing and singing to the Beatles’ song “Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds.” Just as that Lucy fossil provided unique insights into humanity’s evolution, the Lucy mission promises to revolutionize our knowledge of planetary origins and the formation of the Solar System.

    Donya Douglas-Bradshaw, project manager for the Lucy mission, is responsible for ensuring accuracy of the technical details, budget, and schedule for the Lucy mission. Her primary job involves working with scientists, engineers, business managers, schedulers, and other experts to solve problems within budget and time constraints.

    Douglas-Bradshaw was raised on Maryland’s Eastern Shore in Salisbury, where she worked on farms picking cucumbers and tomatoes with her great-grandmother alongside migrant workers. That was one of the ways her family earned their living. For a while, her family lived at her great-grandmother’s house, which did not have indoor plumbing.

    She recalled, “I always had a book in my hand.”

    By the age of 10, Douglas-Bradshaw knew she wanted to work for NASA, and teachers saw her talents in math and science. She remembers many of her teachers fondly: her “no-nonsense” fifth-grade teacher, her high-school geometry teacher who inducted her into the National Honor Society, and her 12th-grade advanced-placement biology teacher, who she remembered as “tough and demanding, but showed compassion and empathy when needed.”

    She earned a scholarship to Rutgers University in New Jersey, where she majored in mechanical engineering. “I did not see people who looked like me in science or engineering,” she said.

    The summer before sophomore year, she became pregnant with twins and transferred to the University of Maryland Eastern Shore. Her boys were born prematurely at 28 weeks and spent their first four months in the hospital.

    (From https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2021/meet-the-lucy-team-donya-douglas-bradshaw)

    I always enjoyed reading similar details about other figures at NASA.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @Anon7

    Gee. So a black woman is good at this STEM shit that so exercises you people. I await the "statistical" rejoinders. Funnier than the expletive-filled ones.

    Replies: @Anon7

  128. Do we have killed in action per 100,000 per state during World War II?

  129. “You mean he took it away from her whoever was here before,Indians maybe. Well I’m taking it away from him.”

  130. Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?

    Maybe both.

    When my dad was conscripted to the Danish army in 1951, he was 174cm (a tad over 5’8″) – exactly the average male height for conscripts at that time. My mom was a bit smaller. I was brought up on plenty of oatmeal porridge, and at least a liter of milk every day (no lactose intolerance in my family! No sir!), and stand 6’2″ – a couple of inches higher than my brother, and maybe five or six higher than my sister.

    Perhaps the Texan explanation has to do with how they measure the height?

    [MORE]

  131. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Also: "Satoshi Nakamoto is probably not Japanese either, so all his Bitcoins are right fully mine."

    Replies: @Batman

    World War Hair development. Black woman who was obviously resisting arrest gets slammed to the ground by her braids. Blacks outraged.

    https://thegrio.com/2021/10/18/viral-video-louisiana-deputy-shantel-arnold-slammed-by-braids/

  132. @2BR
    @Trinity

    I once heard the Medal of Honor winner Jack Jacobs speak. He was about Audie Murphy’s height. He joked about his size, but also said, semi-seriously, that being small on the battlefield was a decided advantage in combat.

    Replies: @Trinity, @Odin

    He…also said, semi-seriously, that being small on the battlefield was a decided advantage in combat.

    I’ve seen it said there were no tall generals. Reason: a bullet that went through a short man’s hat, or over his head, would kill a tall man. The effects accumulated through a lifetime of combat.

    Of course this supposes that combat is the path to generalship.

  133. @Brutusale
    @Coemgen

    Outside the thin coastal strip from Freeport to the NH border, Maine is Appalachia.

    Back when I was selling packaging, one of my accounts was the largest meatpacker in New England. They made a product called Macaroni & Cheese Loaf. The purchasing manager told me that it was essentially cheap protein for the poor people living "up the county".

    https://www.kayem.com/products/macaroni-cheese-loaf/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edl8c_L7P4M

    My first visit to my customer's main facility put me right off deli meats for a long time.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Reg Cæsar

    This may explain why down here in the lower parts of New England (less “Down East” than Maine) people from that state are sometimes referred to as Big Ass Mainers. I’ve heard it now and then, but I don’t know why. Now maybe I do?… (I did briefly date, yes, a girl from Skowhegan, Maine. She did not have a particularly large behind, but she wasn’t Nicole Kidman either.)

    Eyes Wide Shut

    The thing I like about Maine is that the L.L. Bean store is open 24/7/365. I once drove up there on my way to Bar Harbor and stopped at the store right about midnight. It was open, and I wandered around and looked at all the stuff I’d seen in catalogues since I was a kid. Then I drove on.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I want nothing to do with Maine women. My older brother played for the University of Maine back in the 70s. His roommate freshman year was a forestry major from up the county, and my brother said he met some XL Maine farm girls who were big, strong, and dipped.

  134. The John Wayne Movie Stereotype of Tall Texans Was True

    I say:

    Tall ill-gotten gains in the Fed-rigged asset bubbles have given Rice University of TEXAS — hot and humid Houston — an endowment of 6.2 BILLION DOLLARS!

    Liquidate Rice University endowment and Harvard loot pile and Dartmouth loot pile and Yale loot pile and let’s not forget the Mormon Loot Pile of over a hundred billion.

    Implode The Asset Bubbles Now!

    Nationalize The Federal Reserve Bank Now!

  135. Thomas Jefferson was not seven feet tall, but he was from Virginia and he was Anglo-Norman, so I claim him as one of my own and I will remember the ones who attacked his memory by removing his statue.

  136. @Alfa158
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I never understood the driving position in old Italian cars. The problem is that the steering pedals are too close, but at the same time the steering wheel is tilted and far away, so it’s impossible to get a comfortable compromise seat position. I was born right smack in the middle of Italy and am genetically as Italian as it is possible to get, but even I don’t fit. When I was kid I had a FIAT sports car (charming car, but as we say about Italian cars keeping one going is like building a sand castle with the tide coming in). Driving long distance (long defined as being as long as it would run before needing something done to it) was a pain.
    Italian cars are all made in Northern Italy by the Celtic+Alpine+True Italian hybrids who inhabit the region and those folks must all have the limb proportions of chimps. I have never looked closely at a member of the Agnelli family, maybe they were all 5’4” with 72 inch reaches.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    Thank you for your reply. It is very interesting and fun to hear from someone who was born and lived right there in the middle of Italy. I knew your name, “Alfa158,” had to have meaning.


    Italian Futurism might have had something to do with what we are talking about.

    [MORE]
    The idea of speed and dynamism expressed in art and design. That took hold in Italy in the first half of the 20th Century and lead to the creation of wonderful art and design.

    There was that and the willingness to suffer for style and fashion. See “The Cruel Shoes,” by Steve Martin.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Yes: Futurism!!!

    I'm a sucker for the artistic manifestos of the early 20th c., and the Futurist Manifesto has it all: the headlong rhetorical tumult, the hilarity (intentional or inadvertent?), the insane insistence on whatever...

    https://www.italianfuturism.org/manifestos/foundingmanifesto/

    My very favorite sentence from Marinetti's great declaration (a high bar), and the perfect complement to your illustrations:


    A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of explosive breath—a roaring car that seems to ride on grapeshot is more beautiful than the Victory of Samothrace.
     

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  137. @Trinity
    Doesn't matter how much beef or milk you drink, your height is determined ALMOST entirely by genetics. I often wondered IF certain exercises or activities would make someone taller. One would think that MAYBE IF someone were to start an activity like swimming as a youngster before puberty hit IF it might give someone a few extra inches in height. In regards to WWII enlistees, Texans and height. The most decorated soldier of that period was from Texas but he was far from being tall. Hell, he wasn't even close to average in height and he wasn't a Mexican but a gringo. He was Audie Murphy, all 5'5" in height. Freddie Patek, best known for his time spent playing shortstop for the Kansas City Royals in the 1970s was also from Texas and was also short. Patek was one of the shortest guys to ever play in MLB IF not the shortest. "The Flea" aka Patek stood 5'4" to 5'5" depending on the source. Imagine Freddie Patek lined up next to the Washington Monument known as Frank Howard and guessing that both these men made their living in the same sport.

    I saw lots of HUGE people both in height and girth while living in Nebraska. I imagine Minnesota and the Upper Midwest would be full of huge people of Polish, Scandinavian or German descent. German genes, man, those Germans do have great genes. Yep, flyover country Whites probably make East Coast and West Coast hipsters look pretty small and weak. Hell, even Southerners make the Coast Elites look small and weak.

    Replies: @2BR, @Escher, @Known Fact, @Ed Case, @TWS, @kaganovitch

    My grandfather had very poor nutrition as a boy. His older brothers were a foot taller than he was. He suffered from several nutritional related conditions as a boy.

    His father was kicked in the chest by a steer and was unable to do much after that. Before that they owned a ranch and were wheat farmers.

  138. @Trinity
    @Brutusale

    I see Chuck Connors also played in MLB and is one of only 13 people who can claim to have played in the NBA and MLB. It says in Wiki that Connor played for the Dodgers and Cubs, I could have swore he played a brief time for the Athletics as well. Will have to do a search on that.

    I also heard a rumor that "The Rifleman" made some porn movies and that he MIGHT have been gay. Have no idea whether the porn is ALLEGED to be straight porn or gay porn, but you have to wonder if his screen name was "The Rifleman" in the porn industry. hehe.

    Connors was a big guy and athletic looking, and obviously he was athletic being a good enough athlete to make it to the NBA and MLB. In the Gunsmoke episode I saw Connor play in he was cast as a prizefighter who was bullying a meek fellow into a fight. Marshall Dillon steps in of course and it is he and Connor who engage in a bit of fisticuffs and not the meek guy. Of course Matt takes out a professional prizefighter, did Matt ever lose a fight or a gun fight? haha.Yeah, Connors looked every bit as James Arness.

    Replies: @Brutusale, @Buzz Mohawk

    Yeah, and I also sold packaging to one of the other 12 NBA/MLB players, a colorful guy named Gene Conley. Gene was the first one to tell me that one of the other 12, Danny Ainge, would be playing in the NBA because he couldn’t handle any decent breaking ball.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Brutusale

    I believe it was 6'6" Dave Winfield who was DRAFTED in three different sports for three different leagues. He was drafted by the San Diego Padres of MLB, The Atlanta Hawks of the NBA, and the Utah Stars of the ABA and even the Minnesota Vikings of the NFL in 1973. Winfield didn't play football in college but the Vikings figured with his athletic ability and size he would make a good tight end.

    Now there was a White boy during this time as well named Bruce Hardy who was sought after by colleges in all 3 sports. The 6'5" Bruce Hardy was a high school standout in baseball, football and basketball. Hardy would go on to play tight end for the Miami Dolphins.

    Nowadays with so many kids specializing in one sport the days of athletes like Winfield and Hardy are long gone.

    Boxer Ken Norton was quite the high school athlete as well. No doubt it was Norton's athleticism that helped him have a successful career in boxing despite not taking up the sport until his 20s. Norton was a standout in track and field, basketball and football while in high school and reportedly won 7 out of 8 events at a track meet.

    And talk about great athletes of that time period. I remember a chick named Caitlyn Jenner, man she had skills. hehe.

    Replies: @additionalMike

  139. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Brutusale

    This may explain why down here in the lower parts of New England (less "Down East" than Maine) people from that state are sometimes referred to as Big Ass Mainers. I've heard it now and then, but I don't know why. Now maybe I do?... (I did briefly date, yes, a girl from Skowhegan, Maine. She did not have a particularly large behind, but she wasn't Nicole Kidman either.)


    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/d4/ab/4cd4abb89e9d0e60db4a4ef72e7978a2.jpg
    Eyes Wide Shut

    The thing I like about Maine is that the L.L. Bean store is open 24/7/365. I once drove up there on my way to Bar Harbor and stopped at the store right about midnight. It was open, and I wandered around and looked at all the stuff I'd seen in catalogues since I was a kid. Then I drove on.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    I want nothing to do with Maine women. My older brother played for the University of Maine back in the 70s. His roommate freshman year was a forestry major from up the county, and my brother said he met some XL Maine farm girls who were big, strong, and dipped.

  140. @Old and Grumpy
    @Bill P

    Tall and strong help in livestock farming. Compare that to something like mining. Height would be a liability. Nor if you were a tall man would you want to mine. Outdoor work would be more appealing. It also follows that tall men tend have tall children. One thing I realized while raising replacement heifers for our dairy farm, male genetics have a far bigger impact than females on the quality of replacement stock. And yes, meat and milk do make the person. There is a physical difference between those who are lactose tolerant, and those who are not.

    Replies: @Bill P, @Yngvar

    That’s what I thought. People who raise cattle probably self-select to a degree as well. If you were the runt of the litter in a family of tall ranchers, wouldn’t you be more likely to seek your fortune elsewhere? Maybe you’d head to California and give prospecting a try.

    • Agree: Not Raul
  141. @Trinity
    @Brutusale

    I see Chuck Connors also played in MLB and is one of only 13 people who can claim to have played in the NBA and MLB. It says in Wiki that Connor played for the Dodgers and Cubs, I could have swore he played a brief time for the Athletics as well. Will have to do a search on that.

    I also heard a rumor that "The Rifleman" made some porn movies and that he MIGHT have been gay. Have no idea whether the porn is ALLEGED to be straight porn or gay porn, but you have to wonder if his screen name was "The Rifleman" in the porn industry. hehe.

    Connors was a big guy and athletic looking, and obviously he was athletic being a good enough athlete to make it to the NBA and MLB. In the Gunsmoke episode I saw Connor play in he was cast as a prizefighter who was bullying a meek fellow into a fight. Marshall Dillon steps in of course and it is he and Connor who engage in a bit of fisticuffs and not the meek guy. Of course Matt takes out a professional prizefighter, did Matt ever lose a fight or a gun fight? haha.Yeah, Connors looked every bit as James Arness.

    Replies: @Brutusale, @Buzz Mohawk

    Chuck Connors kissed my mom.

    When I was a kid and The Rifleman was a popular TV show that I watched, Connors happened to be having dinner in the same restaurant as my parents one night. My Mom swooned when she told the story about meeting him and him kissing her.

    Dad was evidently okay with it, understandably. He gave me a Winchester BB gun soon after, so I guess it was all good.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Yep, my cousin had a huge crush on Big Chuck. I hope The Rifleman was a straight shooter and wasn't gay because it would break her heart. haha.

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @Buzz Mohawk

    One of the greatest TV openers ever, especially his look at the end.

  142. OT – the Guardian discovers inspins (involuntary spinsters), though they’ve not got the nomenclature sorted.

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/18/i-feel-hurt-that-my-life-has-ended-up-here-the-women-who-are-involuntary-celibates

    When a woman named Alana coined the term “incel” in the late 90s, she couldn’t have predicted the outcome. What started as a harmless website to connect lonely, “involuntary celibate” men and women has morphed into an underground online movement associated with male violence and extreme misogyny.

    … Elliot Rodger … Plymouth… toxic male entitlement …hate crime watchlists …

    But it is not just incel men who struggle to find sexual connections in the modern world. Some young women are turning to online “femcel” spaces to discuss the challenges they face as involuntary celibates.

    Theirs is a non-violent resistance. Rather than blaming the opposite sex for their unhappiness, as some of their male counterparts do, femcels tend to believe their own “ugliness” is the root cause of their loneliness. Posting anonymously on platforms they have designed for themselves, they argue that they are invisible due to their abnormal appearance, and that our beauty-centric, misogynistic culture prevents them from being accepted. There is anger and open grappling with self-esteem, but no extreme hatred and no sense of entitlement within the community.

    Now we must be fair. For good evolutionary reasons, any woman of childbearing age who’s not morbidly obese can find a man to do the deed with her. Roy Baumeister:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20071013010421/http://denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm

    “For many men, there would be few chances to reproduce and so they had to be ready for every sexual opportunity. If a man said “not today, I have a headache,” he might miss his only chance.”

    Yup.

    Caitlin, 39, doesn’t call herself a femcel, but she hasn’t had sex for almost eight years and doesn’t think she will find another sexual partner. “I’m not conventionally attractive and I never get approached by men,” she says. “They don’t look at me. I’ve had therapy to try to address these issues, but dating feels like a barren wasteland. It’s worse as I get older, because I’ve missed that short window to marry and have a family.”

    I have no idea if “I’m not conventionally attractive” means “I have a face only a mother could love”, “I look like Huma Abedin”, or “I weigh twenty-two stone”. Only the third of these might disqualify her, and weight is one of the things that is possible to change.

    Although Caitlin is not morally opposed to casual sex, it is not an experience that feels right for her. She has had two short-term relationships, which ended in heartbreak.

    Which is two more relationships that a couple of guys I know have ever had, and they are both pushing 50.

    “There is a popular notion among incel communities – and even in wider society – that women are privileged because they can get sex at any time. Not only is that untrue, as many women will testify…”

    OK – assuming they aren’t morbidly obese, they may actually have to either leave the house for a bar or club, or go online. Not exactly difficult. And the club may have a surplus of women that night – it might take you two days or even three or four. Because men may be fussy about who they go out with, or who they marry – not so much about who they sleep with.

    Has anyone ever made a Tinder account for an unattractive (though not morbidly obese) woman who is just looking for a casual fling? I imagine they’d have a lot of men to choose from. Very few men are upset by the idea that a women only wants them for their body.

    …but also, as Caitlin points out, not all sex is enjoyable. “Generally, men who aren’t in a relationship with you don’t make it a pleasurable experience,” she says. “The risk of rejection afterwards is high, which makes the sex even less enjoyable. As a woman, you want to be desired, not treated like a piece of meat.”

    I think we’re talking different things by “desire” here, btw, but the point is that what’s wanted is sex-plus-relationship, not just sex. Hence “involuntary spinster”, not “femcel”.

  143. @Brutusale
    @Trinity

    Yeah, and I also sold packaging to one of the other 12 NBA/MLB players, a colorful guy named Gene Conley. Gene was the first one to tell me that one of the other 12, Danny Ainge, would be playing in the NBA because he couldn't handle any decent breaking ball.

    Replies: @Trinity

    I believe it was 6’6″ Dave Winfield who was DRAFTED in three different sports for three different leagues. He was drafted by the San Diego Padres of MLB, The Atlanta Hawks of the NBA, and the Utah Stars of the ABA and even the Minnesota Vikings of the NFL in 1973. Winfield didn’t play football in college but the Vikings figured with his athletic ability and size he would make a good tight end.

    Now there was a White boy during this time as well named Bruce Hardy who was sought after by colleges in all 3 sports. The 6’5″ Bruce Hardy was a high school standout in baseball, football and basketball. Hardy would go on to play tight end for the Miami Dolphins.

    Nowadays with so many kids specializing in one sport the days of athletes like Winfield and Hardy are long gone.

    Boxer Ken Norton was quite the high school athlete as well. No doubt it was Norton’s athleticism that helped him have a successful career in boxing despite not taking up the sport until his 20s. Norton was a standout in track and field, basketball and football while in high school and reportedly won 7 out of 8 events at a track meet.

    And talk about great athletes of that time period. I remember a chick named Caitlyn Jenner, man she had skills. hehe.

    • Replies: @additionalMike
    @Trinity

    "And talk about great athletes of that time period. I remember a chick named Caitlyn Jenner, man she had skills. hehe."
    Yeah, she did alright, for a girl.

  144. @Richard Killough
    I think Anon[374]/Disclaimer has the most accurate response, and basically wrote what I would have written with firsthand albeit anecdotal knowledge. Texas was not, as some have suggested, heavily German. There were a few counties of German refugee colonies from the 1848 revolutions. Especially in 1941, Texas whites were, as with the rest of the South save southern Louisiana, largely if not overwhelmingly of British ancestry. I don’t know how many of those were Scotch-Irish but I suspect a heavy portion. My paternal ancestors arrived in Texas in the late 1830s from Tennessee, having left Ulster in 1718. If you were not physically robust, you died. They were cattlemen by the 1850s. My recent Texas male ancestors were almost universally above average height, most all above 6 feet. And the observation that the state was bereft of Southern and Eastern Europeans, more common in the Northeast and industrial Midwest, also is important as their average height would have brought the mean down. The theory about access to beef is intriguing. I’d like to see stats on consumption.

    Replies: @pirelli

    My recollection (supported by the article below) is that around 5 percent of Texans were of German descent by the middle of the 19th century, so you’re right that Texas was never “heavily” German.

    https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/germans

    They weren’t all (or even mostly) refugees from the 1848 revolutions though. Most were economic migrants, and they started arriving in significant numbers in the 1830s. German immigration to Texas reached its peak in the mid-1840s, before the 1848 revolutions.

  145. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Trinity

    Chuck Connors kissed my mom.

    When I was a kid and The Rifleman was a popular TV show that I watched, Connors happened to be having dinner in the same restaurant as my parents one night. My Mom swooned when she told the story about meeting him and him kissing her.

    Dad was evidently okay with it, understandably. He gave me a Winchester BB gun soon after, so I guess it was all good.


    https://media.tenor.com/images/bf700aa2e6625a9df5ff7d3462ee377a/tenor.gif

    Replies: @Trinity, @Jim Don Bob

    Yep, my cousin had a huge crush on Big Chuck. I hope The Rifleman was a straight shooter and wasn’t gay because it would break her heart. haha.

  146. @SunBakedSuburb
    @theMann

    "German Catholics"

    A significant amount of German Catholics settled in Texas after the Scots-Irish cleared out the Mexicans and Comanche for them. Another migration of Germans landed at Fort Bliss in the late 1940s. They helped von Braun win the war for Hitler.

    Replies: @Not Raul

    Here is an interesting page on German settlement in Texas.

    https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/germans

  147. @Anon7
    OT: In Hidden Figures news, Lucy was successfully launched and will explore the Trojan asteroids!

    The Trojan asteroids were theorized by the famous Italian mathematician Joseph-Louis Lagrange, who showed that there were areas just ahead and just behind planets that could accumulate asteroids. As you might guess, they are named after famous men in the Trojan war, like Hektor, Patroclus, Agamemnon and so forth.

    Lockheed Martin designed and built a space craft, which was launched yesterday by NASA.

    So what about those black girls at NASA? And what about Lucy?

    Lucy is an unusual name for a space craft. Is it an acronym? No!

    The Lucy mission is named after the fossilized skeleton of an early hominid found in Ethiopia on Nov 24, 1974 by Donald Johanson and Tom Gray. That Lucy in turn was named by expedition member Pamela Alderman after a celebratory evening dancing and singing to the Beatles’ song “Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds.” Just as that Lucy fossil provided unique insights into humanity’s evolution, the Lucy mission promises to revolutionize our knowledge of planetary origins and the formation of the Solar System.
     
    Donya Douglas-Bradshaw, project manager for the Lucy mission, is responsible for ensuring accuracy of the technical details, budget, and schedule for the Lucy mission. Her primary job involves working with scientists, engineers, business managers, schedulers, and other experts to solve problems within budget and time constraints.

    Douglas-Bradshaw was raised on Maryland’s Eastern Shore in Salisbury, where she worked on farms picking cucumbers and tomatoes with her great-grandmother alongside migrant workers. That was one of the ways her family earned their living. For a while, her family lived at her great-grandmother's house, which did not have indoor plumbing.

    She recalled, "I always had a book in my hand."

    By the age of 10, Douglas-Bradshaw knew she wanted to work for NASA, and teachers saw her talents in math and science. She remembers many of her teachers fondly: her "no-nonsense" fifth-grade teacher, her high-school geometry teacher who inducted her into the National Honor Society, and her 12th-grade advanced-placement biology teacher, who she remembered as "tough and demanding, but showed compassion and empathy when needed."

    She earned a scholarship to Rutgers University in New Jersey, where she majored in mechanical engineering. "I did not see people who looked like me in science or engineering," she said.

    The summer before sophomore year, she became pregnant with twins and transferred to the University of Maryland Eastern Shore. Her boys were born prematurely at 28 weeks and spent their first four months in the hospital.

    (From https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2021/meet-the-lucy-team-donya-douglas-bradshaw)

    I always enjoyed reading similar details about other figures at NASA.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

    Gee. So a black woman is good at this STEM shit that so exercises you people. I await the “statistical” rejoinders. Funnier than the expletive-filled ones.

    • Replies: @Anon7
    @obwandiyag

    I found a group picture of the Lucy team. It was a room with about one hundred white people, 80% men.

    There was one Black person in the room. The woman in charge.

    Do you think she was chosen for her STEM excellence?

    I also admire the naming of the probe. Millions of girls will hear “Lucy discovers this” and “Lucy discovers that”. You go girl! And then I suppose they’ll cancel the Trojan naming convention and demand they be named after Trojan women.

  148. It is amazing how much Texans were able to do with Texas compared to what Mexicans could make of it before the Texans came. It’s a shame we didn’t conquer down to Chiapas, driving the Hispanics before us. It would be much easier to guard the border along with Chiapas than the current “border” with Mexico. I put border in quotes for obvious reasons.

    This is not exactly racist. I am wishing that the people in Mexico had much higher standards of living, it would not matter who the people of Mexico are from an anti-racist jus solis perspective. The current situation, where people from Mexico become “Americans” by dint of location is exactly analogous.

    Alas, whites no longer make babies. Hispanics do, and they may drive us into the Canadian tundra the way things are going.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Rob


    Alas, whites no longer make babies. Hispanics do...
     
    Whites make plenty of babies, and the Hispanics who have been legitimate parts of America's Southwest from the beginning do too. We all make enough babies to continue our standard of living and to continue to progress into the future.

    Too many people oversimplify the economic concept of "growth." According to most economic ideas in our time, and the corresponding corporate and global plans, there simply must be "growth." Well, this doesn't mean more and more people, more stoop laborers, ad infinitum. Growth is more caused by invention and discovery.

    Invention and discovery enable the same or smaller numbers of people like us to become even more and more productive. The fact is, we need fewer people, not more, and the trend among Whites to have fewer offspring is perfectly natural.

    Replies: @Rob

  149. @Redneck farmer
    "Everything's bigger in Texas."

    Replies: @theMann, @Mike Tre, @Schoolboy, @Haxo Angmark, @Charon

    Texas rancher to Yankee-“It takes me all day to drive from one end of my ranch to the other.”
    Yankee-“I used to have a truck like that.”

  150. @Rob
    It is amazing how much Texans were able to do with Texas compared to what Mexicans could make of it before the Texans came. It’s a shame we didn’t conquer down to Chiapas, driving the Hispanics before us. It would be much easier to guard the border along with Chiapas than the current “border” with Mexico. I put border in quotes for obvious reasons.

    This is not exactly racist. I am wishing that the people in Mexico had much higher standards of living, it would not matter who the people of Mexico are from an anti-racist jus solis perspective. The current situation, where people from Mexico become “Americans” by dint of location is exactly analogous.

    Alas, whites no longer make babies. Hispanics do, and they may drive us into the Canadian tundra the way things are going.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    Alas, whites no longer make babies. Hispanics do…

    Whites make plenty of babies, and the Hispanics who have been legitimate parts of America’s Southwest from the beginning do too. We all make enough babies to continue our standard of living and to continue to progress into the future.

    Too many people oversimplify the economic concept of “growth.” According to most economic ideas in our time, and the corresponding corporate and global plans, there simply must be “growth.” Well, this doesn’t mean more and more people, more stoop laborers, ad infinitum. Growth is more caused by invention and discovery.

    Invention and discovery enable the same or smaller numbers of people like us to become even more and more productive. The fact is, we need fewer people, not more, and the trend among Whites to have fewer offspring is perfectly natural.

    • Agree: S. Anonyia
    • Thanks: Etruscan Film Star
    • Replies: @Rob
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I definitely agree on growth through inventions and discovery over the toilet paper theory of growth on which so much of our policy, either de facto or de jure, is based.

    The thing is though, we desperately need smarter people to have more kids and dumber people to have fewer. The mix of parents matters. Whether or not you “believe” in global warming or not, it is just a fact that increasing carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will make the planet warmer. This is as certain as the increased insolation during the spring and summer makes the planet (ok, the hemisphere) warmer. Will we be under 10 feet of water in NYC in ten years? No, of course not. Will crop yields suffer (certeris paribus)? Almost certainly. Photosynthesis is less efficient at elevated temperatures. We need a population smart enough to see why “warmer weather? Yay!” is not a reasonable position.

    Until some sort of severe disruption occurs, modern economic orthodoxy will reign. Even if some alternative theory or way of managing the money supply is better, economics is not like phlogiston theory. There are people whose livelihoods depend on fractional reserve banking and everything else that demands constant growth. These are very good livelihoods. So good that they own the government. The stock market used to have “downs” years where stocks were, on average, selling for less than the year before. That does not happen anymore. Do you think it is because the business class has become so good at corporate governance? No, it’s because the fed is buying fake assets with real money, so the investor class has more money to buy stock. Even if you don’t buy that answer, do you think the government will ever let the markets drop, even gradually over a long period?

    We have already had massive inflation. Because the ownership class owns the government, and the corporate class gets paid in stock options, asset prices rose instead of bread prices. But as boomers retire, they will sell stock. In a healthy market, stock prices would decline. Do you think they will? Lobbying pressure will be severe. Congressmen have a personal stake in the price of stocks. It is not like the average earned income, In which they are disinterested, so that can go down...

    Now, maybe there has been real growth, but it’s mostly been captured by the ownership class? But if there has been real growth, its continuation is contingent on smart people. The big problems in biomed, like curing aging, infectious disease, chronic disease, and obesity, do not call for only more money. We need smarter researchers. We need smarter people reviewing grants. We need a general public that is smart enough to see the value in big innovations and realize that funding innovative research means funding some duds, maybe mostly funding duds. We need a smarter public because politicians are drawn from the public. According to Greg Cochran, no one within a few degrees of a decision-maker in government can even see the value of von Neumann factories, much less von Neumann cities or a von Neumann economy. Who has babies matters here?

    If there has been real growth, why are living standards (as traditionally measured) been declining? Per family income may be stable, but that's only because women work, and people have accommodated declining real income by having fewer children.

    Let’s say our ever-shrinking smart fraction manages to work out big paradigms, a true theory of aging, unifying quantum mechanics, and special relativity, the Central Americans on course to being half(!) the population in just twenty years, do you think they will be able to work out which protein does what, or how to build whatever tech new theories say are possible? We know fusion is possible, but cannot build break-even reactors. If we were smarter, if average IQ went up by 30 points, we would be able to, I am sure. I have not worked out what the average IQ of working-age adults will be in 2040, but it is quite a bit lower than today’s. This is one reason who has babies and how many they have matter.

    I have no doubts we are on the verge of tremendous value from biology, but will we have enough people who can work in labs, or will we be growing fruit and sending it to China? Don’t worry! The large landowners will be able to afford their immortality pills.

    Finally, we live in a democracy. To some extent, it is nominally subject to the will of voters. Trump proved that is not the case. The chances that the political class will start acting in the interests of the public is nil. When the masses are mostly dim and Hispanic, the political class will feel even less interested in policies that help them. Or worse, they will say, “the average American will never be able to work in a CRISPR factory. We should stop funding it. The rich you see, want different things than everyone else. They want cheap servants. The young ones don’t want a smarter population. If they did, we would be well on our way to one. They want cheaper servants and larger diamonds. They want new wives... Back to democracy. Multiethnic democracies do not work without a dominant ethnicity. Political parties do not work when people vote their ethnicity. That’s one reason who has babies matters.

    I somewhat see it as a matter of Physicist Dave’s parasitic verbal elite (though I am very verbal). Improvements in tech strengthen the relative position of STEM-type people, who tend to be spatially and mathematically gifted. Though many are verbally gifted as well (g is a thing).

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  151. @Brutusale
    @Coemgen

    Outside the thin coastal strip from Freeport to the NH border, Maine is Appalachia.

    Back when I was selling packaging, one of my accounts was the largest meatpacker in New England. They made a product called Macaroni & Cheese Loaf. The purchasing manager told me that it was essentially cheap protein for the poor people living "up the county".

    https://www.kayem.com/products/macaroni-cheese-loaf/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edl8c_L7P4M

    My first visit to my customer's main facility put me right off deli meats for a long time.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Reg Cæsar

    Outside the thin coastal strip from Freeport to the NH border, Maine is Appalachia.

    Geologically, yes. My experience in the Coast Guard was that the coastal Mainers were much more rustic than the inland ones. Perhaps that impression was enhanced by their weird accent, in places like Wockwand and Wockpawt. It could also have been selection bias. Inland Mainers sound like New Hampshiremen. My two closest shipmates had these very different speech ways– and they grew up five miles apart.

    However, there may have been some selection bias. Perhaps a different kind of Down Easterner joined the Coast Guard compared with the mountain man.

    A Southern poet resettled in Maine not too long ago. She said her neighbors were just hillbillies with different accents.

  152. @AnotherDad
    No huge surprises here. Germanics--especially Germans on the farm--taller than more recent immigrants groups back east. And of course, Indians and Mexicans are not tall.

    The interesting thing that struck me is how well the Scots-Irish did in the piedmont/mountains of NC and upstate SC and on through other areas of the south. (But ho-hum in WV.) It can't be driven by blacks as the effects dies away in very heavily black areas of the tidewater or the Delta region of Mississippi. This for guys who grew up during the depression in the relatively poor South.

    I think Texas whites are--traditionally--a combination of Southern whites--skewing more toward frontiersy Scots-Irish--whites, plus Germanics (e.g. Nimitz).

    Replies: @Neil Templeton, @Anonymous, @additionalMike, @Rebel Roy, @Matttt

    There is a wide range in heights among Mexican men. Northern Mexicans are stereotypically tall, 6ft+, and you see quite a few Mexican-American men whose families have been in Texas for generations who are tall. Mexicans from the center of the country seem to top out at 5’7″, so long as they are well-nourished. Mexicans from the south (e.g, Mayans) can be short – 5’3″ or 5’4″.

  153. @Redneck farmer
    "Everything's bigger in Texas."

    Replies: @theMann, @Mike Tre, @Schoolboy, @Haxo Angmark, @Charon

    and don’t forget John Wayne + Ella Raines in that classic western,

    “Tall in the Saddle”.

    can’t figure how that title got past the censors tho.

  154. @Redneck farmer
    "Everything's bigger in Texas."

    Replies: @theMann, @Mike Tre, @Schoolboy, @Haxo Angmark, @Charon

  155. @Old and Grumpy
    @Bill P

    Tall and strong help in livestock farming. Compare that to something like mining. Height would be a liability. Nor if you were a tall man would you want to mine. Outdoor work would be more appealing. It also follows that tall men tend have tall children. One thing I realized while raising replacement heifers for our dairy farm, male genetics have a far bigger impact than females on the quality of replacement stock. And yes, meat and milk do make the person. There is a physical difference between those who are lactose tolerant, and those who are not.

    Replies: @Bill P, @Yngvar

    There is a physical difference between those who are lactose tolerant, and those who are not.

    What’s the magic in lactose, it’s just a sugar?

  156. @Known Fact
    @Trinity

    At 6'0" I'm a full three inches or more taller than any man in my lineage, and my mother was tiny.

    BTW along with Fred Patek there was 5'5" outfielder Albie Pearson in the 50s and 60s. More relevantly, the great Jose Altuve is just listed at just 5'6"

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Bill Jones

    Known Fact, I used to be a big fan of Altuve, but I don’t like cheaters so… so long Jose.

  157. @Buzz Mohawk
    @prosa123

    Astronauts and fighter pilots all have been lower in height for the same reasons. I don't know if that is true anymore. What I do know is that in America, if you were a tall pilot, they assigned you to a bomber.

    This is a common theme. The most exotic Italian sports cars used to have what was described as the Italian driving position: designed for short legs. (Simian?) When I got the chance to sit in the driver's seat of a Lamborghini Countach, I discovered that I really couldn't drive it. I had to contort myself and bend my knees up around the steering wheel and tilt my feet backward so as not to push on the pedals. My head touched the ceiling, and I actually had to lean it over a bit.


    http://media.gq.com/photos/559318d17dbd34d650ec858b/master/pass/cars-and-gear-2009-12-stylish-cars-70s-cars-lamborghini1.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Alfa158, @Buffalo Joe

    Buzz, plus you couldn’t afford it. A litany of reasons why you didn’t hit on the gorgeous woman. Stay safe.

  158. @Trinity
    @Brutusale

    I believe it was 6'6" Dave Winfield who was DRAFTED in three different sports for three different leagues. He was drafted by the San Diego Padres of MLB, The Atlanta Hawks of the NBA, and the Utah Stars of the ABA and even the Minnesota Vikings of the NFL in 1973. Winfield didn't play football in college but the Vikings figured with his athletic ability and size he would make a good tight end.

    Now there was a White boy during this time as well named Bruce Hardy who was sought after by colleges in all 3 sports. The 6'5" Bruce Hardy was a high school standout in baseball, football and basketball. Hardy would go on to play tight end for the Miami Dolphins.

    Nowadays with so many kids specializing in one sport the days of athletes like Winfield and Hardy are long gone.

    Boxer Ken Norton was quite the high school athlete as well. No doubt it was Norton's athleticism that helped him have a successful career in boxing despite not taking up the sport until his 20s. Norton was a standout in track and field, basketball and football while in high school and reportedly won 7 out of 8 events at a track meet.

    And talk about great athletes of that time period. I remember a chick named Caitlyn Jenner, man she had skills. hehe.

    Replies: @additionalMike

    “And talk about great athletes of that time period. I remember a chick named Caitlyn Jenner, man she had skills. hehe.”
    Yeah, she did alright, for a girl.

    • LOL: Trinity
  159. @Reg Cæsar
    @Wilkey


    Meanwhile, in the deep blue city of Philadelphia, a black man by the name of Fishton Ngoy – most often a Congolese name – has been arrested for raping a woman on a commuter train...
     
    Was he headed to Fishtown? She sure didn't want him Upper Darby.

    The thumbnail says "Men Can Stop Rape", but, unlike that group, this fellow realizes that "creating cultures free of violence" is not the way to go about it:


    https://youtu.be/jGyL-vXhwZU

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5c5c40ede66669768af196de/1556828617828-VTNWL1V614BPUXWRLULA/MCSR%252BLogo%252B2012%252B%2525281296%252Bx%252B440%252Bpixels%252529.jpg?format=1500w


    Men Can Stop Rape = Crap men on SEPTA. Peeps can not arm!

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    Glad you brought this up.

    So, Sailer-sphere, was the woman black or white?

    Upper Darby sounds posh but the demographics ain’t too great:

    https://www.upperdarby.org/businesses/township-demographics

    48% white, 34% AA – not great.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Paperback Writer

    Given that no one on the train lifted a finger to help, and the MSM are characteristically silent on the topic, I do have a theory. Btw, none of them even called for help. A SEPTA employee called 911.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  160. @StAugustine
    @Reg Cæsar

    I flew next to an italian/argentine guy once and I was surprised that he had family up in da UP, as I had thought that the mining up there was being run by Cornish miners. He said no, the Cornish were there but the Italians had more know how and were the ones in charge - Iron, copper, tin up there, and the Cornish miners were more coal miners.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I flew next to an italian/argentine guy once and I was surprised that he had family up in da UP, as I had thought that the mining up there was being run by Cornish miners. He said no, the Cornish were there but the Italians had more know how and were the ones in charge – Iron, copper, tin up there, and the Cornish miners were more coal miners.

    Finns, too. I’ve eaten what appeared to be pasties in Finland. I’ve wondered if Finnish miners picked this up from their Cornish colleagues and brought it home. Lots of Italians went to mine in Scotland, Wales, and Sweden.

    However, the Cornish have been mining tin since Roman times, so they should have learned the business by now.

    The Argentine I met on Amtrak was of Japanese descent; his wife, also present, was more typical of the country. IIRC, he said he played rugby in his youth.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Reg Cæsar

    Cornish have been mining tin in Britain for 4,000 years. My grandpa worked with Cornish miners in Nevada as a teenager, and he picked up a pasty recipe from them. I used to eat the pasties he made when I was a kid. Now I make my own according to the Cornish pasty association's recipe.

    https://cornishpastyassociation.co.uk/about-the-pasty/make-your-own-genuine-cornish-pasty/

    They're really good, but if you aren't working as hard as a miner I wouldn't recommend eating too many too often.

  161. @Mike Tre
    @Trinity

    Here is Wayne and Eastwood next to each other, and it appears you may be right about Eastwood's height being exaggerated. This photo appears to be on the set of Wayne's last movie The Shootist, so in his mid 70's, Wayne wouldn't have been at his tallest but his boots may have gave him an inch or two as well.

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/a0/00/50a0008d68f99445869372d0a98a6c43.jpg

    Replies: @Trinity

    The thing about Wayne and height was I read that Big John was a heavy smoker. IF I am not mistaken I read that Wayne started smoking as a teenager and smoked between 3 to 5 packs of cigarettes a day. So much for cigarettes stunting someone’s growth. haha.

    Another poster claimed that heavy manual work would stunt a child’s growth?? Nah, I think it would actually have the opposite effect IF the kid received adequate nutrition and enough rest to recover. Used to be a common myth was that weight training done as a child or early teens would stunt someone’s growth. I have known people who started weight training as 12-13 year old kids and who are well above 6′ tall. I think the myth about weights stunting growth has to do with a lot of short people gravitate towards lifting weights because they are small and want to become bigger or that in the sports of Olympic lifting and powerlifting sometimes short arms and short bodies can be advantageous. However, short arms won’t do much good in the deadlift. Ernie Pickett was a world class Olympic weightlifter who was 6’4 1/2″ tall, Ken Patera was 6’2″ and that strong guy from Iceland nicknamed “Thor” is like 6’9″. So much for that myth.

    Same thing about the myth concerning wearing hats and baldness. The reason that myth got started is that bald guys are often wearing hats all the time because they are bald. My uncle wore a ball cap 24/7, hell I think the guy might have slept in it, but he had a head full of hair his whole life.

    In regards to milk and growth. What about super tall Black basketball players and milk? Milk is not a huge staple in the African In America community and yet Negroes are probably slightly taller than the average White in America. Another thing is that milk is supposed to be good for teeth and bones which I think is somewhat provable except in the case of Negroes. Negroes on average of very straight, real white and strong looking teeth and yet you don’t see a lot of Negroes pounding the cow juice. Hell I have yet to see a Negro in a dentist office.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Trinity

    There is supposedly a genetic link between hair color and teeth color. Black haired people have the whitest teeth, and redheads the yellowist. A dental professional told me this, but I don't know if it's actually true.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  162. @Ed Case
    @Trinity

    Gunboat Smith fought Willard and estimated his height to be at least 6'10''.
    There's a picture of the training camp for the Carnera Baer bout, Willard is on the left of the picture with knees bent and Carnera on the extreme right and Willard still appears much bigger than Carnera.

    Replies: @Trinity

    Well since this thread mentioned The Duke and Tommy “The Duke” Morrison was a boxer and a distant relative of John Wayne. I remember when Morrison fought a boxer who was 7 feet tall named Marselles Brown. Morrison dispatched the extremely tall but RELATIVELY lean journeyman in pretty easy fashion despite being at an extreme disadvantage in reach and height. Like I say, these HUGE guys have been around forever, only relatively lately in the last couple of decades have they made any noise.

    Carnera was listed at 6’5 3/4″ and lately I have seen people listing him at up to 6’7″ even. Willard has almost always been listed at 6’6 1/4″. Both guys were not fighters but both did remarkably well considering Willard started awful late, never liked the fight game and was stiff as a board. Willard did have a punch and even killed a man in the ring IF I am not mistaken.

    Carnera? Well, considering Carnera’s goons never even cared if he trained and that Carnera never even learned the basics, he did well enough considering all the killers and talented fighters he met. Sure thing some of the fights were fixed but Jack Sharkey on his deathbed said the second Carnera fight was on the level. And imagine a guy with no formal boxing training to speak of surviving against a prime Joe Louis for 6 rounds. Carnera vs. Baer? Carnera suffered a severe ankle injury in the second round following one of 11 knockdowns at the hands of Baer that night. that is the reason he can be seen staggering all over the ring against Baer. And for such a huge guy, Carnera had great stamina, and was RELATIVELY agile. He lacked a punch, chin, but not heart. One of the most courageous fighters ever to step in the ring with a Joe Louis and little without ever learning how to box. The people that USED UP Carnera are hopefully resting in Hell.

    RIP to Carnera, Morrison, Jack Sharkey, and Willard.

    • Replies: @Cowtown Rebel
    @Trinity

    Did anyone else notice how silent the media was after Wilder got K O'd by Fury? Prior to the fight, promos were airing every half hour. I knew the next day, when the results weren't all over the news and the internet, that Fury had prevailed. Otherwise, the headlines and opening broadcasts would have trumpeted a Wilder victory as loudly and as often as they had the buildup. Though, I'm no fan of either fighter, I was glad that the demented, blood licking "Gypsy King" won. Maybe, this fight settled the matter, and he can go on to fight someone else.

    For nearly two decades, the boxing world refused to give rightful credit to the Klitschkos, who, together, practically dominated the ring during their reign; the main criticism seeming to stem from their refusal to unify the titles by fighting each other. Also, they had intelligence and class; attributes that are frequently absent among pugilists. I saw an interview with them where they talked about meeting Don King early in their careers. At first they were impressed, particularly when Don began to play a classical composition on the piano. Then, they realized that it was a player piano and that King was only going through the motions. They said they made a polite, but hasty, exit, and never looked back.

    Replies: @Trinity

    , @additionalMike
    @Trinity

    My late father-in-law, who saw Carnera fight (he was one of those artists that newspapers had to draw sketches of events for the sports pages) told me that Carnera became a pretty decent boxer, but was not in Baer's class.

    Replies: @Trinity

  163. @Reg Cæsar
    @StAugustine


    I flew next to an italian/argentine guy once and I was surprised that he had family up in da UP, as I had thought that the mining up there was being run by Cornish miners. He said no, the Cornish were there but the Italians had more know how and were the ones in charge – Iron, copper, tin up there, and the Cornish miners were more coal miners.

     

    Finns, too. I've eaten what appeared to be pasties in Finland. I've wondered if Finnish miners picked this up from their Cornish colleagues and brought it home. Lots of Italians went to mine in Scotland, Wales, and Sweden.

    However, the Cornish have been mining tin since Roman times, so they should have learned the business by now.

    The Argentine I met on Amtrak was of Japanese descent; his wife, also present, was more typical of the country. IIRC, he said he played rugby in his youth.

    Replies: @Bill P

    Cornish have been mining tin in Britain for 4,000 years. My grandpa worked with Cornish miners in Nevada as a teenager, and he picked up a pasty recipe from them. I used to eat the pasties he made when I was a kid. Now I make my own according to the Cornish pasty association’s recipe.

    https://cornishpastyassociation.co.uk/about-the-pasty/make-your-own-genuine-cornish-pasty/

    They’re really good, but if you aren’t working as hard as a miner I wouldn’t recommend eating too many too often.

    • Thanks: Coemgen
  164. @Trinity
    Doesn't matter how much beef or milk you drink, your height is determined ALMOST entirely by genetics. I often wondered IF certain exercises or activities would make someone taller. One would think that MAYBE IF someone were to start an activity like swimming as a youngster before puberty hit IF it might give someone a few extra inches in height. In regards to WWII enlistees, Texans and height. The most decorated soldier of that period was from Texas but he was far from being tall. Hell, he wasn't even close to average in height and he wasn't a Mexican but a gringo. He was Audie Murphy, all 5'5" in height. Freddie Patek, best known for his time spent playing shortstop for the Kansas City Royals in the 1970s was also from Texas and was also short. Patek was one of the shortest guys to ever play in MLB IF not the shortest. "The Flea" aka Patek stood 5'4" to 5'5" depending on the source. Imagine Freddie Patek lined up next to the Washington Monument known as Frank Howard and guessing that both these men made their living in the same sport.

    I saw lots of HUGE people both in height and girth while living in Nebraska. I imagine Minnesota and the Upper Midwest would be full of huge people of Polish, Scandinavian or German descent. German genes, man, those Germans do have great genes. Yep, flyover country Whites probably make East Coast and West Coast hipsters look pretty small and weak. Hell, even Southerners make the Coast Elites look small and weak.

    Replies: @2BR, @Escher, @Known Fact, @Ed Case, @TWS, @kaganovitch

    Imagine Freddie Patek lined up next to the Washington Monument known as Frank Howard and guessing that both these men made their living in the same sport.

    Kind of like this picture but Patek was 4 inches shorter than Torreyes

    https://www.mlb.com/cut4/photos-aaron-judge-and-ronald-torreyes-swapped-jerseys-c227857488

  165. @Anonymous
    Ironically, WWII hero Texan Audie Murphy was 5’5” tall.

    Replies: @Escher, @Prester John

    Audie Murphy is from Texas?

  166. @Savage Indifference
    @Anon

    "I’ve come across people from Honduras who are mind-bogglingly short ..."

    But very strong, with strong legs fantastically good at climbing trees and doing tree work. A crew of Central Americans once took down a senescent tallow tree (uuggh) for me, and the last thing to cut was the stump at the base, almost a couple feet across/ three feet high. The brawniest of the men - all my height or shorter - heaved that stump on his back and carried it to the trailer. I hated to see that. I felt that doing that way must surely shorten his working years.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Neil Templeton

    A crew of Central Americans once took down a senescent tallow tree (uuggh) for me, and the last thing to cut was the stump at the base, almost a couple feet across/ three feet high. The brawniest of the men – all my height or shorter – heaved that stump on his back and carried it to the trailer. I hated to see that. I felt that doing that way must surely shorten his working years.

    Are you sure about the measurements? That has to be almost 600 pounds!

  167. @obwandiyag
    @Anon7

    Gee. So a black woman is good at this STEM shit that so exercises you people. I await the "statistical" rejoinders. Funnier than the expletive-filled ones.

    Replies: @Anon7

    I found a group picture of the Lucy team. It was a room with about one hundred white people, 80% men.

    There was one Black person in the room. The woman in charge.

    Do you think she was chosen for her STEM excellence?

    I also admire the naming of the probe. Millions of girls will hear “Lucy discovers this” and “Lucy discovers that”. You go girl! And then I suppose they’ll cancel the Trojan naming convention and demand they be named after Trojan women.

  168. Rob says:
    @Buzz Mohawk
    @Rob


    Alas, whites no longer make babies. Hispanics do...
     
    Whites make plenty of babies, and the Hispanics who have been legitimate parts of America's Southwest from the beginning do too. We all make enough babies to continue our standard of living and to continue to progress into the future.

    Too many people oversimplify the economic concept of "growth." According to most economic ideas in our time, and the corresponding corporate and global plans, there simply must be "growth." Well, this doesn't mean more and more people, more stoop laborers, ad infinitum. Growth is more caused by invention and discovery.

    Invention and discovery enable the same or smaller numbers of people like us to become even more and more productive. The fact is, we need fewer people, not more, and the trend among Whites to have fewer offspring is perfectly natural.

    Replies: @Rob

    I definitely agree on growth through inventions and discovery over the toilet paper theory of growth on which so much of our policy, either de facto or de jure, is based.

    [MORE]

    The thing is though, we desperately need smarter people to have more kids and dumber people to have fewer. The mix of parents matters. Whether or not you “believe” in global warming or not, it is just a fact that increasing carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will make the planet warmer. This is as certain as the increased insolation during the spring and summer makes the planet (ok, the hemisphere) warmer. Will we be under 10 feet of water in NYC in ten years? No, of course not. Will crop yields suffer (certeris paribus)? Almost certainly. Photosynthesis is less efficient at elevated temperatures. We need a population smart enough to see why “warmer weather? Yay!” is not a reasonable position.

    Until some sort of severe disruption occurs, modern economic orthodoxy will reign. Even if some alternative theory or way of managing the money supply is better, economics is not like phlogiston theory. There are people whose livelihoods depend on fractional reserve banking and everything else that demands constant growth. These are very good livelihoods. So good that they own the government. The stock market used to have “downs” years where stocks were, on average, selling for less than the year before. That does not happen anymore. Do you think it is because the business class has become so good at corporate governance? No, it’s because the fed is buying fake assets with real money, so the investor class has more money to buy stock. Even if you don’t buy that answer, do you think the government will ever let the markets drop, even gradually over a long period?

    We have already had massive inflation. Because the ownership class owns the government, and the corporate class gets paid in stock options, asset prices rose instead of bread prices. But as boomers retire, they will sell stock. In a healthy market, stock prices would decline. Do you think they will? Lobbying pressure will be severe. Congressmen have a personal stake in the price of stocks. It is not like the average earned income, In which they are disinterested, so that can go down…

    Now, maybe there has been real growth, but it’s mostly been captured by the ownership class? But if there has been real growth, its continuation is contingent on smart people. The big problems in biomed, like curing aging, infectious disease, chronic disease, and obesity, do not call for only more money. We need smarter researchers. We need smarter people reviewing grants. We need a general public that is smart enough to see the value in big innovations and realize that funding innovative research means funding some duds, maybe mostly funding duds. We need a smarter public because politicians are drawn from the public. According to Greg Cochran, no one within a few degrees of a decision-maker in government can even see the value of von Neumann factories, much less von Neumann cities or a von Neumann economy. Who has babies matters here?

    If there has been real growth, why are living standards (as traditionally measured) been declining? Per family income may be stable, but that’s only because women work, and people have accommodated declining real income by having fewer children.

    Let’s say our ever-shrinking smart fraction manages to work out big paradigms, a true theory of aging, unifying quantum mechanics, and special relativity, the Central Americans on course to being half(!) the population in just twenty years, do you think they will be able to work out which protein does what, or how to build whatever tech new theories say are possible? We know fusion is possible, but cannot build break-even reactors. If we were smarter, if average IQ went up by 30 points, we would be able to, I am sure. I have not worked out what the average IQ of working-age adults will be in 2040, but it is quite a bit lower than today’s. This is one reason who has babies and how many they have matter.

    I have no doubts we are on the verge of tremendous value from biology, but will we have enough people who can work in labs, or will we be growing fruit and sending it to China? Don’t worry! The large landowners will be able to afford their immortality pills.

    Finally, we live in a democracy. To some extent, it is nominally subject to the will of voters. Trump proved that is not the case. The chances that the political class will start acting in the interests of the public is nil. When the masses are mostly dim and Hispanic, the political class will feel even less interested in policies that help them. Or worse, they will say, “the average American will never be able to work in a CRISPR factory. We should stop funding it. The rich you see, want different things than everyone else. They want cheap servants. The young ones don’t want a smarter population. If they did, we would be well on our way to one. They want cheaper servants and larger diamonds. They want new wives… Back to democracy. Multiethnic democracies do not work without a dominant ethnicity. Political parties do not work when people vote their ethnicity. That’s one reason who has babies matters.

    I somewhat see it as a matter of Physicist Dave’s parasitic verbal elite (though I am very verbal). Improvements in tech strengthen the relative position of STEM-type people, who tend to be spatially and mathematically gifted. Though many are verbally gifted as well (g is a thing).

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Rob

    Rob, thank you for your extensive and interesting reply. I have been busy at the moment and thus not able to respond accordingly. Please accept my thanks. I think your points are very valid. For example, I know damn well too many stupid people are having children while too many smart people are not.

    The fact is, it is smart not to have too many kids now, but the stupid people are subsidized and we can't think of a fair and humane way to cut their reproduction. Farmers and dog breeders are allowed morally to do this, but not us.

    One suspects this periodically results in tragic history that settles the score in a bloody, insane way. Maybe we are heading for yet another such chapter in human history.

    Again, thank you. (I am in a hurry.)

  169. @Michaeloh
    @Michaeloh

    “Scotch-irish” Im probably never going to live that down.

    Replies: @Cato

    The Bohemians came to Texas decades after the initial wave of settlement out of the upper South (mostly Tennessee and Kentucky). Tallness probably comes mostly from the latter — they are a mix of Borderers (Scotch-Irish) and English/Welsh settlers from the Chesapeake. The Borderers come from the Danelaw area of Britain, and are primarily descendants of Danish Vikings.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Cato

    The Scots-Irish have their own unmistakable phenotype, and they don't look all that much like the Larsons and Jensens (or Schmidts or Krauses) I grew up with in Minnesota. I would say that upper Midwesterners don't particularly resemble any type from the British Isles as much as they resemble a hybrid of various Northern Europeans.

    IMO, whites from the Midwest and West (including Texas) make a good case for "hybrid vigor" (more attractive due to less of an exaggerated phenotype) compared to Northeastern whites (Ellis Islanders being very phenotypically apparent+WASPs with less genetic diversity than whites further out west) or Southern whites predominately of British Isles descent.

  170. @Bill P
    My pet theory is that cattle ranching selects for height. Cultures that rely heavily on cattle tend to be relatively tall, and Texas was settled in large part by cow people.

    I got this theory by observing the local Dutch dairymen where I live. They are huge. African cow people are also tall. I think it must make the job much easier. Cows can easily trample little people, who have a hard time seeing over them.

    Replies: @Yancey Ward, @Steve-O, @Charlotte, @Alice in Wonderland, @Old and Grumpy, @Lagertha, @Joe Paluka

    The people who emigrated to TX were Swiss, German, Hungarian, Czech, mostly (Czech Stop is my favorite fuel stop), – all taller than WASPS, or most people from the British isles, or other WASP parts of the world.

    Danes are the tallest. Finns are now, rivaling that! hahhahahaaaa! But, I would like Steve to talk about the Tartarians! hahhahaaa

    Scandinavians are the tallest, leanest, most muscular men, and the leanest, narrow-hipped, yet muscular women. To some extent, it is due to dairy. Children and young adults grow up with drinking whole milk, loving cheese and it becomes a staple in their diets as adults. Yogurt is yuge.

    Vitamin D will be the most talked about vitamin in just a few short months.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    @Lagertha

    How come western twang has 'nary a hint of Central Europe to be found? 'Though I'll admit the Karelians did contribute more than a bit to pioneer culture.

  171. Parman focused on disease as the explanation for the height differences. From the third slide at the link.

    Differences in average height and educational attainment were highly correlated with differences in childhood disease environment across cities and states.

    And from the page 43 summary.

    Substantial variation existed in heights across cities and states, much of which can be explained by differences in the prevalence of disease

    The associated paper is available here.
    https://jmparman.people.wm.edu/research-files/health-and-educational-journal.pdf

    BTW, for those arguing shorter people have a better chance of surviving in battle, apparently not true for British soldiers in WWI. (though note that the paper is based on a sample of only 1000 soldiers!)
    Big and tall soldiers are more likely to survive battle: a possible explanation for the ‘returning soldier effect’ on the secondary sex ratio
    https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/22/11/3002/652125

  172. @Dryheavz
    Went to a college football game in Grand Forks. The indoor dome. Saw a ton of truly big men. Tall and strong. Impressive. I’m over six foot and it was truly noticeable

    Replies: @Polistra

    How many of them have a clue what’s been happening to their country, and how many of those have a clue what to do about it?

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @Polistra


    How many of them have a clue what’s been happening to their country
     
    One word: genocide.
  173. @Paperback Writer
    @Reg Cæsar

    Glad you brought this up.

    So, Sailer-sphere, was the woman black or white?

    Upper Darby sounds posh but the demographics ain't too great:

    https://www.upperdarby.org/businesses/township-demographics

    48% white, 34% AA - not great.

    Replies: @Polistra

    Given that no one on the train lifted a finger to help, and the MSM are characteristically silent on the topic, I do have a theory. Btw, none of them even called for help. A SEPTA employee called 911.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Polistra

    Please do not interpret my posting this as any kind of rationalization for what this sicko did, but this might affect the answer to my question:

    https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/homeless-man-charged-with-raping-woman-claims-it-was-consensual/

    Of course, he's crazy and everything he says could be a lie. But it's possible she's one of his type and he did recognize her from hanging around SEPTA and using it as a home away from the home he doesn't have.

  174. @Trinity
    @Mike Tre

    The thing about Wayne and height was I read that Big John was a heavy smoker. IF I am not mistaken I read that Wayne started smoking as a teenager and smoked between 3 to 5 packs of cigarettes a day. So much for cigarettes stunting someone's growth. haha.

    Another poster claimed that heavy manual work would stunt a child's growth?? Nah, I think it would actually have the opposite effect IF the kid received adequate nutrition and enough rest to recover. Used to be a common myth was that weight training done as a child or early teens would stunt someone's growth. I have known people who started weight training as 12-13 year old kids and who are well above 6' tall. I think the myth about weights stunting growth has to do with a lot of short people gravitate towards lifting weights because they are small and want to become bigger or that in the sports of Olympic lifting and powerlifting sometimes short arms and short bodies can be advantageous. However, short arms won't do much good in the deadlift. Ernie Pickett was a world class Olympic weightlifter who was 6'4 1/2" tall, Ken Patera was 6'2" and that strong guy from Iceland nicknamed "Thor" is like 6'9". So much for that myth.

    Same thing about the myth concerning wearing hats and baldness. The reason that myth got started is that bald guys are often wearing hats all the time because they are bald. My uncle wore a ball cap 24/7, hell I think the guy might have slept in it, but he had a head full of hair his whole life.

    In regards to milk and growth. What about super tall Black basketball players and milk? Milk is not a huge staple in the African In America community and yet Negroes are probably slightly taller than the average White in America. Another thing is that milk is supposed to be good for teeth and bones which I think is somewhat provable except in the case of Negroes. Negroes on average of very straight, real white and strong looking teeth and yet you don't see a lot of Negroes pounding the cow juice. Hell I have yet to see a Negro in a dentist office.

    Replies: @Polistra

    There is supposedly a genetic link between hair color and teeth color. Black haired people have the whitest teeth, and redheads the yellowist. A dental professional told me this, but I don’t know if it’s actually true.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Polistra

    There used to be a lot more interest in redheads.

    Replies: @Polistra

  175. @Polistra
    @Dryheavz

    How many of them have a clue what's been happening to their country, and how many of those have a clue what to do about it?

    Replies: @anonymous

    How many of them have a clue what’s been happening to their country

    One word: genocide.

  176. @Polistra
    @Trinity

    There is supposedly a genetic link between hair color and teeth color. Black haired people have the whitest teeth, and redheads the yellowist. A dental professional told me this, but I don't know if it's actually true.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    There used to be a lot more interest in redheads.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Steve Sailer

    The old saw about redheads was that out of every ten, a couple were reasonably attractive, one was smokin hot, and the rest were homely at best. A dental professional told me this, but I don’t know if it’s actually true.

    (Yeah, I listen to dentists a lot. Married one! But now that I think about it, that breakdown is pretty typical in general, isn't it?)

  177. @Savage Indifference
    @Anon

    "I’ve come across people from Honduras who are mind-bogglingly short ..."

    But very strong, with strong legs fantastically good at climbing trees and doing tree work. A crew of Central Americans once took down a senescent tallow tree (uuggh) for me, and the last thing to cut was the stump at the base, almost a couple feet across/ three feet high. The brawniest of the men - all my height or shorter - heaved that stump on his back and carried it to the trailer. I hated to see that. I felt that doing that way must surely shorten his working years.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Neil Templeton

    On the other hand, he probably got laid that night.

  178. @Lagertha
    @Bill P

    The people who emigrated to TX were Swiss, German, Hungarian, Czech, mostly (Czech Stop is my favorite fuel stop), - all taller than WASPS, or most people from the British isles, or other WASP parts of the world.

    Danes are the tallest. Finns are now, rivaling that! hahhahahaaaa! But, I would like Steve to talk about the Tartarians! hahhahaaa

    Scandinavians are the tallest, leanest, most muscular men, and the leanest, narrow-hipped, yet muscular women. To some extent, it is due to dairy. Children and young adults grow up with drinking whole milk, loving cheese and it becomes a staple in their diets as adults. Yogurt is yuge.

    Vitamin D will be the most talked about vitamin in just a few short months.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton

    How come western twang has ‘nary a hint of Central Europe to be found? ‘Though I’ll admit the Karelians did contribute more than a bit to pioneer culture.

  179. @Steve Sailer
    @Polistra

    There used to be a lot more interest in redheads.

    Replies: @Polistra

    The old saw about redheads was that out of every ten, a couple were reasonably attractive, one was smokin hot, and the rest were homely at best. A dental professional told me this, but I don’t know if it’s actually true.

    (Yeah, I listen to dentists a lot. Married one! But now that I think about it, that breakdown is pretty typical in general, isn’t it?)

  180. @Trinity
    @SunBakedSuburb

    Ah, a Coastie in the crowd. Charlie company here. YN1 Bragg was the CC. A Black woman as a company commander. haha. She later had assistance from a White BMC. Go figure, yet another qualified White male doing the ACTUAL JOB of an affirmative action Black and a Black female at that. And this was almost 40 years ago. We see how bad the military has become since then.

    As I remember every CC at the time was a Chief Petty Officer except the golden Bragg, the only one ranked lower than an E7 in the bunch.

    Replies: @AndrewR

    When I wanted to join the military, my first thought was the Coast Guard. Having spent so much time around the Great Lakes, how could it not have been?

    I called the recruiter and apparently he had met his quota for the month because, before learning anything about me, he told me to “try the Navy or Air Force.”

    In retrospect, I should have grilled him a lot harder, but I ended up talking to an AF recruiter. I read study guides for the ASVAB and I ended up getting a perfect score: 99s across the board. I feel safe in assuming I could have gotten into the Coast Guard, and I would have waited for a slot to open.

    Oh well; hindsight is 20/20. I would never encourage anyone to enlist in 2021, but I have fond memories of my AF service, and I learned a lot.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @AndrewR

    I was going into the Air Force but the wait was too long back then. My uncle who retired from the Air Force told me about the Coast Guard. I had seen small boats at Clearwater Beach, Florida and thought, yeah I can dig it. haha. I wound up on a 378 foot cutter WHEC Gallatin which is now part of the Nigerian navy. I might as well been in the USN my first couple of years in. Land duty and/or small boat stations in the Coast Guard are nice duty though, ship life, not so much.

  181. Perhaps, this is where the notion of a Tall Texan originated? Although, originally from South Carolina, and having served in a Missouri unit, Henry Clay Thurston spent his post war years living in Texas where he died and was buried.

    One story has it that when Thurston mustered into service, he was in the back row and his commanding officer ordered him to get off the stump that he assumed Henry was standing on.

    At 7′ 7 1/2″ or 7′ 8,” Thurston was nearly a foot taller than the loftiest Yankee who stood 6′ 9.” Thurston toured the country with circuses and he was both naturally and enthusiastically a prominent feature at the Confederate reunions that he attended.

    When Henry Thurston died of a heart attack, an 8 foot coffin had to be specially made to accommodate him.

    https://scttx.com/articles/%e2%80%9c-confederate-giant%e2%80%9d-neal-murphy

  182. @Trinity
    @Ed Case

    Well since this thread mentioned The Duke and Tommy "The Duke" Morrison was a boxer and a distant relative of John Wayne. I remember when Morrison fought a boxer who was 7 feet tall named Marselles Brown. Morrison dispatched the extremely tall but RELATIVELY lean journeyman in pretty easy fashion despite being at an extreme disadvantage in reach and height. Like I say, these HUGE guys have been around forever, only relatively lately in the last couple of decades have they made any noise.

    Carnera was listed at 6'5 3/4" and lately I have seen people listing him at up to 6'7" even. Willard has almost always been listed at 6'6 1/4". Both guys were not fighters but both did remarkably well considering Willard started awful late, never liked the fight game and was stiff as a board. Willard did have a punch and even killed a man in the ring IF I am not mistaken.

    Carnera? Well, considering Carnera's goons never even cared if he trained and that Carnera never even learned the basics, he did well enough considering all the killers and talented fighters he met. Sure thing some of the fights were fixed but Jack Sharkey on his deathbed said the second Carnera fight was on the level. And imagine a guy with no formal boxing training to speak of surviving against a prime Joe Louis for 6 rounds. Carnera vs. Baer? Carnera suffered a severe ankle injury in the second round following one of 11 knockdowns at the hands of Baer that night. that is the reason he can be seen staggering all over the ring against Baer. And for such a huge guy, Carnera had great stamina, and was RELATIVELY agile. He lacked a punch, chin, but not heart. One of the most courageous fighters ever to step in the ring with a Joe Louis and little without ever learning how to box. The people that USED UP Carnera are hopefully resting in Hell.

    RIP to Carnera, Morrison, Jack Sharkey, and Willard.

    Replies: @Cowtown Rebel, @additionalMike

    Did anyone else notice how silent the media was after Wilder got K O’d by Fury? Prior to the fight, promos were airing every half hour. I knew the next day, when the results weren’t all over the news and the internet, that Fury had prevailed. Otherwise, the headlines and opening broadcasts would have trumpeted a Wilder victory as loudly and as often as they had the buildup. Though, I’m no fan of either fighter, I was glad that the demented, blood licking “Gypsy King” won. Maybe, this fight settled the matter, and he can go on to fight someone else.

    For nearly two decades, the boxing world refused to give rightful credit to the Klitschkos, who, together, practically dominated the ring during their reign; the main criticism seeming to stem from their refusal to unify the titles by fighting each other. Also, they had intelligence and class; attributes that are frequently absent among pugilists. I saw an interview with them where they talked about meeting Don King early in their careers. At first they were impressed, particularly when Don began to play a classical composition on the piano. Then, they realized that it was a player piano and that King was only going through the motions. They said they made a polite, but hasty, exit, and never looked back.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Cowtown Rebel

    Well the best P4P boxer today is an Irishman as well with a Mexican name. haha. You know damn well that Canelo Alvarez has an Irishman in the woodpile.

    Yeppers, I know boxing isn't as popular as it used to be but it seems to be making a comeback, no thanks to people like (((ESPN))) though. I find it interesting that several Jewish or half Jewish boxing aficionados such as Teddy Atlas predicted a Wilder victory. Wilder can't fight a lick and while he does have power, he largely PADDED his record with a lists of out and out bums before capturing the title. Wilder fights remind you of the two trannies you see fighting in a McDonald's parking lot at 2 AM. The guy cannot even skip rope properly, I kid you not.

    Honestly, I know the guy is a former basketball player and became a fighter relatively late but all he has is a devastating right hand. It BURNS legacy sports writers and sports networks now that Whites are not only dominating in the heavyweight class but they have also made an impact in all weight classes particularly from middleweight to heavyweight. ESPN is as anti-White as CNN and although not a top tier sport any more, the heavyweight champion is still the biggest title in sports and ESPN and others know this, losing in boxing is way more personal than dropping a doubleheader in baseball. Another sport that seems to be gaining in popularity in the fringes at least is arm wrestling. This sport seems to be becoming more popular lately, even though arm wrestling has been around for ages, it was always treated as a side show of sorts. Yet another sport dominated by Whites.

    Replies: @Cowtown Rebel, @prosa123

  183. @Trinity
    @2BR

    Yeah, I think I read that the huge James Arness was wounded in WWII, that explains the limp. No doubt that Arness presented a HUGE target whereas Murphy presented almost no target. haha.

    It even used to be common knowledge back in the day that heavyweight boxers shouldn't be extremely large men but only big enough in the range of maybe 6'1" to 6'3" at the tallest and maybe about 210-220lbs or so. The reason given or reasons given were that really big men would be too ponderous and slow, not move well, lack stamina and even thought to lack the killer instinct. That theory has been blown out the water since Lennox Lewis.

    Not that back in the day they did not have huge fighters because they did, only those guys couldn't move, didn't have the right skillset or they were lacking in other areas. Guys like Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, Ray Impellitterre, Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, Jim Beattie ( who played Jess Willard in The Great White Hope) was even bigger than Willard. Beattie stood 6'9" and boxed in the 1960s and 1970s. And where was Beattie from? Minnesota. But Beattie sounds Irish and not Viking. hehe. Interesting that Carnera and Impellitterre would fight each other with Carnera scoring a knockout victory. Impellitterre was nicknamed, "The Skyscraper." Either the "big guys" have gotten better or the "small guys" have gotten worse? I think it is a little of both.

    Replies: @Ed Case, @Feryl

    Athletes in most sports have gotten quite a bit taller over the last 30 or so years. Ironic exception: basketball, where emphasis on longer range shooting over the last 10 years has made slow really tall guys less valuable. Stiff big men used to be drafted quite high E.G. Sam Bowie drafted above Micheal Jordan. Part of this is also rule changes, aggressive clashes near the rim have been cracked down on so the necessity of having intimidating heft on the court at all times has been reduced while finesse is more rewarded.

    My sense is that pre-1990 there was a misconception that being really tall usually brought clumsiness. But eventually a height arms race began where tall people were sought after not just by basketball coaches but by other coaches as well. I read an article that said very tall pitchers have worse stats than very short ones, because scouts and coaches are so enamored with the power conveyed by size. Rangy pitchers will get more opportunities from teams hoping to teach them better finesse. Short guys on the other hand have to be really good to stay in the big leagues.

    • Replies: @Prester John
    @Feryl

    "Athletes in most sports have gotten quite a bit taller over the last 30 or so years."

    They have indeed. And in all sports. This is one reason why I get a kick out of watching Jose Altuve, who is all of 5'6".

    Replies: @Feryl

  184. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Alfa158

    Thank you for your reply. It is very interesting and fun to hear from someone who was born and lived right there in the middle of Italy. I knew your name, "Alfa158," had to have meaning.


    https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/6/Alfa-Romeo-158--Alfetta-_18.jpg

    Italian Futurism might have had something to do with what we are talking about.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BvVJKVhehw0/TdxNNLmyAmI/AAAAAAAACiI/XtwLhRGIsDc/s1600/Ugo-Gianattasio-untitled-racecar-1920.jpg
    The idea of speed and dynamism expressed in art and design. That took hold in Italy in the first half of the 20th Century and lead to the creation of wonderful art and design.

    There was that and the willingness to suffer for style and fashion. See "The Cruel Shoes," by Steve Martin.

    Replies: @slumber_j

    Yes: Futurism!!!

    I’m a sucker for the artistic manifestos of the early 20th c., and the Futurist Manifesto has it all: the headlong rhetorical tumult, the hilarity (intentional or inadvertent?), the insane insistence on whatever

    https://www.italianfuturism.org/manifestos/foundingmanifesto/

    My very favorite sentence from Marinetti’s great declaration (a high bar), and the perfect complement to your illustrations:

    A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of explosive breath—a roaring car that seems to ride on grapeshot is more beautiful than the Victory of Samothrace.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @slumber_j

    Thank you for your reply. I notice the Manifesto includes this:


    We will glorify war—the world’s only hygiene—militarism, patriotism, the destructive gesture of freedom-bringers, beautiful ideas worth dying for, and scorn for woman.
     
    My art history professor taught us that World War One quashed Futurism. Apparently many futurist artists and proponents actually served in that war, and some were killed.

    It was the first, modern -- dare we say "futurist" war -- full of mechanization and speed and the power and excitement that those artists and manifesto writers had argued so loudly for just a few short years earlier. It was an unnecessary bloodbath on a previously unseen scale. It was "the future" of the machines and the power and the speed so admired by the Futurists. My grandfather was in it and survived.

    Again, thank you. I don't want to be a downer. On the contrary, I find all this just as interesting as you do.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  185. @Trinity
    @Ed Case

    Well since this thread mentioned The Duke and Tommy "The Duke" Morrison was a boxer and a distant relative of John Wayne. I remember when Morrison fought a boxer who was 7 feet tall named Marselles Brown. Morrison dispatched the extremely tall but RELATIVELY lean journeyman in pretty easy fashion despite being at an extreme disadvantage in reach and height. Like I say, these HUGE guys have been around forever, only relatively lately in the last couple of decades have they made any noise.

    Carnera was listed at 6'5 3/4" and lately I have seen people listing him at up to 6'7" even. Willard has almost always been listed at 6'6 1/4". Both guys were not fighters but both did remarkably well considering Willard started awful late, never liked the fight game and was stiff as a board. Willard did have a punch and even killed a man in the ring IF I am not mistaken.

    Carnera? Well, considering Carnera's goons never even cared if he trained and that Carnera never even learned the basics, he did well enough considering all the killers and talented fighters he met. Sure thing some of the fights were fixed but Jack Sharkey on his deathbed said the second Carnera fight was on the level. And imagine a guy with no formal boxing training to speak of surviving against a prime Joe Louis for 6 rounds. Carnera vs. Baer? Carnera suffered a severe ankle injury in the second round following one of 11 knockdowns at the hands of Baer that night. that is the reason he can be seen staggering all over the ring against Baer. And for such a huge guy, Carnera had great stamina, and was RELATIVELY agile. He lacked a punch, chin, but not heart. One of the most courageous fighters ever to step in the ring with a Joe Louis and little without ever learning how to box. The people that USED UP Carnera are hopefully resting in Hell.

    RIP to Carnera, Morrison, Jack Sharkey, and Willard.

    Replies: @Cowtown Rebel, @additionalMike

    My late father-in-law, who saw Carnera fight (he was one of those artists that newspapers had to draw sketches of events for the sports pages) told me that Carnera became a pretty decent boxer, but was not in Baer’s class.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @additionalMike

    I beg to differ on Maxie. Max was a tremendous puncher but like Wilder who is also a powerful puncher, Max couldn't box oranges. I would say that after Carnera actually learned a little bit entirely on his own, Carnera was always in shape and like I say had pretty good stamina for such a huge guy, Carnera was probably a better "boxer" than Baer and Willard. Carnera actually learned how to throw a decent left jab and according to Jack Sharkey there was some sting to it. Baer throw wild haymakers, backhands, and was a dirty fighter. Take a look at the Baer vs. Max Schmeling fight if you ever find the time. Baer should have been disqualified. While Baer wasn't as bad as he is portrayed in the film, "The Cinderella Man", he was a dirty fighter to say the least. Pure puncher and not much else was Baer, IF anything Baer is overrated instead of underrated like so many boxing and sportswriters claim. Max was born in Omaha, Nebraska, I told you guys about HUGE guys in Nebraska. haha.

    Good ole Max Baer Jr, another tall guy, was once accused of beating up Victoria Principle, the tiny starlet best known for her role in "Dallas." Now Vicky could have been a major class bitch but how on earth does a man bring himself to hit something that good looking?? Jethro might not have been such a nice guy in REAL life??

    Replies: @Ed Case

  186. @Polistra
    @Paperback Writer

    Given that no one on the train lifted a finger to help, and the MSM are characteristically silent on the topic, I do have a theory. Btw, none of them even called for help. A SEPTA employee called 911.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    Please do not interpret my posting this as any kind of rationalization for what this sicko did, but this might affect the answer to my question:

    https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/homeless-man-charged-with-raping-woman-claims-it-was-consensual/

    Of course, he’s crazy and everything he says could be a lie. But it’s possible she’s one of his type and he did recognize her from hanging around SEPTA and using it as a home away from the home he doesn’t have.

  187. @Anonymous
    Ironically, WWII hero Texan Audie Murphy was 5’5” tall.

    Replies: @Escher, @Prester John

    My cousin from Lubbock is 5′ 8″. And Duke Wayne was a tall Iowan.

  188. @Altai

    Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?
     
    Probably a combination of both. Urban cretinism was real and people in the countryside tended to be taller and better fed until recently where the protein and carb deficit between the countryside and city are largely gone outside places of serious poverty.

    As for genetics, those areas that are low that aren't particularly urban (Though filled with lots of small towns) in the NE are also where the Italians are.

    https://www.mngeo.state.mn.us/maps/ancestry/us/italian.gif

    Of course, do the same calculation now and all that Hispanic immigration will have taken a toll in the South West.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar, @Jay Fink, @Alexandros

    I am surprised to see a strip of red in the U.P of Michigan just North of the Wisconsin border. I thought of that area as heavily Scandinavian and German not Italian. I wonder what brought Italians there?

  189. @Feryl
    @Trinity

    Athletes in most sports have gotten quite a bit taller over the last 30 or so years. Ironic exception: basketball, where emphasis on longer range shooting over the last 10 years has made slow really tall guys less valuable. Stiff big men used to be drafted quite high E.G. Sam Bowie drafted above Micheal Jordan. Part of this is also rule changes, aggressive clashes near the rim have been cracked down on so the necessity of having intimidating heft on the court at all times has been reduced while finesse is more rewarded.

    My sense is that pre-1990 there was a misconception that being really tall usually brought clumsiness. But eventually a height arms race began where tall people were sought after not just by basketball coaches but by other coaches as well. I read an article that said very tall pitchers have worse stats than very short ones, because scouts and coaches are so enamored with the power conveyed by size. Rangy pitchers will get more opportunities from teams hoping to teach them better finesse. Short guys on the other hand have to be really good to stay in the big leagues.

    Replies: @Prester John

    “Athletes in most sports have gotten quite a bit taller over the last 30 or so years.”

    They have indeed. And in all sports. This is one reason why I get a kick out of watching Jose Altuve, who is all of 5’6″.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Prester John

    As depressing as it is for "shorties" (guys under 6'), there seems to be more "social engineering" for tall athletes these days. Part of this also could be the fact that high income people are taller on average, and there is so much cultivation of budding athletes by the upper crust these days*. Back in the 70's only the super rich really invested a lot into their offspring. But part of the "big sort" of the last 20-30 years is the upper middle class going to greater lengths to differentiate themselves from the proles via high investment in their offspring.

    *Note that height hasn't changed much over the years in sports full of underclass blacks, e.g. basketball and football. However, whiter sports seem to be a lot taller these days which makes sense because whites are far more likely to be in the upper classes than blacks are. And many of those upper class whites are tall.

  190. @Cowtown Rebel
    @Trinity

    Did anyone else notice how silent the media was after Wilder got K O'd by Fury? Prior to the fight, promos were airing every half hour. I knew the next day, when the results weren't all over the news and the internet, that Fury had prevailed. Otherwise, the headlines and opening broadcasts would have trumpeted a Wilder victory as loudly and as often as they had the buildup. Though, I'm no fan of either fighter, I was glad that the demented, blood licking "Gypsy King" won. Maybe, this fight settled the matter, and he can go on to fight someone else.

    For nearly two decades, the boxing world refused to give rightful credit to the Klitschkos, who, together, practically dominated the ring during their reign; the main criticism seeming to stem from their refusal to unify the titles by fighting each other. Also, they had intelligence and class; attributes that are frequently absent among pugilists. I saw an interview with them where they talked about meeting Don King early in their careers. At first they were impressed, particularly when Don began to play a classical composition on the piano. Then, they realized that it was a player piano and that King was only going through the motions. They said they made a polite, but hasty, exit, and never looked back.

    Replies: @Trinity

    Well the best P4P boxer today is an Irishman as well with a Mexican name. haha. You know damn well that Canelo Alvarez has an Irishman in the woodpile.

    Yeppers, I know boxing isn’t as popular as it used to be but it seems to be making a comeback, no thanks to people like (((ESPN))) though. I find it interesting that several Jewish or half Jewish boxing aficionados such as Teddy Atlas predicted a Wilder victory. Wilder can’t fight a lick and while he does have power, he largely PADDED his record with a lists of out and out bums before capturing the title. Wilder fights remind you of the two trannies you see fighting in a McDonald’s parking lot at 2 AM. The guy cannot even skip rope properly, I kid you not.

    Honestly, I know the guy is a former basketball player and became a fighter relatively late but all he has is a devastating right hand. It BURNS legacy sports writers and sports networks now that Whites are not only dominating in the heavyweight class but they have also made an impact in all weight classes particularly from middleweight to heavyweight. ESPN is as anti-White as CNN and although not a top tier sport any more, the heavyweight champion is still the biggest title in sports and ESPN and others know this, losing in boxing is way more personal than dropping a doubleheader in baseball. Another sport that seems to be gaining in popularity in the fringes at least is arm wrestling. This sport seems to be becoming more popular lately, even though arm wrestling has been around for ages, it was always treated as a side show of sorts. Yet another sport dominated by Whites.

    • Replies: @Cowtown Rebel
    @Trinity

    Yeah, I've always suspected that Canelo is likely a descendant of some deserter from the San Patricio Brigade of traitors.

    What's with these Irishmen wanting to be Mestizos? Robert Francis "Weto" O'Rourke immediately springs to mind.

    But, it is funny. I observed a long time ago that the Mexicans were holding their own against the Mighty Joe Youngs of the Squared Circle. Now, it seems that someone forgot to tell the Ukrainians about the athletic superiority of the Negroid, and they, too, are now a significant presence in the sport.

    I think one of the reasons that the Klitchkos stopped fighting in the U. S. was because of what occurred after Andrew Galatta was disqualified for repeatedly hitting Riddick Bowe below the belt. That was really a sad occurrence, and, though Galatta had a reputation as a dirty fighter, I'm not certain that he was intentionally striking Bowe in the groin. Galatta frequently used an uppercut to the abdomen on previous opponents who were typically about six inches shorter than Bowe. He may have had trouble adjusting, because both fighters were taller than what was common then. Regardless, Galatta was clearly outboxing Bowe and the hometown crowd was furious. Even though Galatta was disqualified, it didn't stop a melee from ensuing, brought about by the embarrassment that the Negroes felt by having a White Boy dominating one of their own.

    And, Yes. Now that a gigantic, sloppy, though technically skilled, Gypsy has ascended to the Championship, perhaps the long cherished myth of the Negroes absolute dominance in Heavyweight Boxing, in particular, is finally starting to shatter after 70 or 80 years.

    , @prosa123
    @Trinity

    Canelo Alvarez is such an excellent fighter in part because of his light coloration. As a child growing up in Mexico other kids would taunt him that his mother must have fooled around with a white man. Although a peaceful sort, he would be obliged to get into fistfights to defend his mother's honor and this developed his fighting skills.

  191. @Altai

    Is this ancestral? Due to drinking lots of milk and eating lots of beef?
     
    Probably a combination of both. Urban cretinism was real and people in the countryside tended to be taller and better fed until recently where the protein and carb deficit between the countryside and city are largely gone outside places of serious poverty.

    As for genetics, those areas that are low that aren't particularly urban (Though filled with lots of small towns) in the NE are also where the Italians are.

    https://www.mngeo.state.mn.us/maps/ancestry/us/italian.gif

    Of course, do the same calculation now and all that Hispanic immigration will have taken a toll in the South West.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Reg Cæsar, @Jay Fink, @Alexandros

    “What is Elvis’ country?”

    A place where there are no Jews and no Italians.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Alexandros

    LOTS of Italians LOVE Elvis, are you kidding me. And Elvis is also big with Mexicans.

    Replies: @Alexandros

  192. @additionalMike
    @Trinity

    My late father-in-law, who saw Carnera fight (he was one of those artists that newspapers had to draw sketches of events for the sports pages) told me that Carnera became a pretty decent boxer, but was not in Baer's class.

    Replies: @Trinity

    I beg to differ on Maxie. Max was a tremendous puncher but like Wilder who is also a powerful puncher, Max couldn’t box oranges. I would say that after Carnera actually learned a little bit entirely on his own, Carnera was always in shape and like I say had pretty good stamina for such a huge guy, Carnera was probably a better “boxer” than Baer and Willard. Carnera actually learned how to throw a decent left jab and according to Jack Sharkey there was some sting to it. Baer throw wild haymakers, backhands, and was a dirty fighter. Take a look at the Baer vs. Max Schmeling fight if you ever find the time. Baer should have been disqualified. While Baer wasn’t as bad as he is portrayed in the film, “The Cinderella Man”, he was a dirty fighter to say the least. Pure puncher and not much else was Baer, IF anything Baer is overrated instead of underrated like so many boxing and sportswriters claim. Max was born in Omaha, Nebraska, I told you guys about HUGE guys in Nebraska. haha.

    Good ole Max Baer Jr, another tall guy, was once accused of beating up Victoria Principle, the tiny starlet best known for her role in “Dallas.” Now Vicky could have been a major class bitch but how on earth does a man bring himself to hit something that good looking?? Jethro might not have been such a nice guy in REAL life??

    • Replies: @Ed Case
    @Trinity


    Carnera was probably a better “boxer” than Baer and Willard.
     
    Carnera suffered from gigantism and was retarded.
    Jack Sharkey was hardly likely to admit to taking a dive for the title on his deathbed after having denied it for 60 years.
    Jess Willard had the same problem Sonny Liston had, he's thrashed all the other contenders on the way to the title so no one wanted to fight him.
    Gunboat Smith thought the Johnson fight was legit, Jack couldn't beat Willard.
    In Pete Heller's In This Corner: 40 Champions tell their story
    Smith alludes to the fact that Johnson was a pimp, the real reason he wasn't wanted as Heavyweight Champion.
  193. @AndrewR
    @Trinity

    When I wanted to join the military, my first thought was the Coast Guard. Having spent so much time around the Great Lakes, how could it not have been?

    I called the recruiter and apparently he had met his quota for the month because, before learning anything about me, he told me to "try the Navy or Air Force."

    In retrospect, I should have grilled him a lot harder, but I ended up talking to an AF recruiter. I read study guides for the ASVAB and I ended up getting a perfect score: 99s across the board. I feel safe in assuming I could have gotten into the Coast Guard, and I would have waited for a slot to open.

    Oh well; hindsight is 20/20. I would never encourage anyone to enlist in 2021, but I have fond memories of my AF service, and I learned a lot.

    Replies: @Trinity

    I was going into the Air Force but the wait was too long back then. My uncle who retired from the Air Force told me about the Coast Guard. I had seen small boats at Clearwater Beach, Florida and thought, yeah I can dig it. haha. I wound up on a 378 foot cutter WHEC Gallatin which is now part of the Nigerian navy. I might as well been in the USN my first couple of years in. Land duty and/or small boat stations in the Coast Guard are nice duty though, ship life, not so much.

  194. Anon[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bill P
    @Alice in Wonderland

    I bet if you compare the rancher Mexicans with the corn farmer Mexicans the former are significantly taller.

    Replies: @Anon

    Correct. So my family has been cattle ranching for a three generations, though I myself don’t. Anyway, since I was a kid you’d hear that you’ve got to stand up tall and straight in front of ornery cows, because they only see two dimensions. If cows see that you are the taller beast, cows will assume you have a ton or two behind you and will leave you alone. I guess cowboy hats help too.

    People in the northern part of Mexico —cattle area— are significantly taller than in the southern states.

  195. @Rob
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I definitely agree on growth through inventions and discovery over the toilet paper theory of growth on which so much of our policy, either de facto or de jure, is based.

    The thing is though, we desperately need smarter people to have more kids and dumber people to have fewer. The mix of parents matters. Whether or not you “believe” in global warming or not, it is just a fact that increasing carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will make the planet warmer. This is as certain as the increased insolation during the spring and summer makes the planet (ok, the hemisphere) warmer. Will we be under 10 feet of water in NYC in ten years? No, of course not. Will crop yields suffer (certeris paribus)? Almost certainly. Photosynthesis is less efficient at elevated temperatures. We need a population smart enough to see why “warmer weather? Yay!” is not a reasonable position.

    Until some sort of severe disruption occurs, modern economic orthodoxy will reign. Even if some alternative theory or way of managing the money supply is better, economics is not like phlogiston theory. There are people whose livelihoods depend on fractional reserve banking and everything else that demands constant growth. These are very good livelihoods. So good that they own the government. The stock market used to have “downs” years where stocks were, on average, selling for less than the year before. That does not happen anymore. Do you think it is because the business class has become so good at corporate governance? No, it’s because the fed is buying fake assets with real money, so the investor class has more money to buy stock. Even if you don’t buy that answer, do you think the government will ever let the markets drop, even gradually over a long period?

    We have already had massive inflation. Because the ownership class owns the government, and the corporate class gets paid in stock options, asset prices rose instead of bread prices. But as boomers retire, they will sell stock. In a healthy market, stock prices would decline. Do you think they will? Lobbying pressure will be severe. Congressmen have a personal stake in the price of stocks. It is not like the average earned income, In which they are disinterested, so that can go down...

    Now, maybe there has been real growth, but it’s mostly been captured by the ownership class? But if there has been real growth, its continuation is contingent on smart people. The big problems in biomed, like curing aging, infectious disease, chronic disease, and obesity, do not call for only more money. We need smarter researchers. We need smarter people reviewing grants. We need a general public that is smart enough to see the value in big innovations and realize that funding innovative research means funding some duds, maybe mostly funding duds. We need a smarter public because politicians are drawn from the public. According to Greg Cochran, no one within a few degrees of a decision-maker in government can even see the value of von Neumann factories, much less von Neumann cities or a von Neumann economy. Who has babies matters here?

    If there has been real growth, why are living standards (as traditionally measured) been declining? Per family income may be stable, but that's only because women work, and people have accommodated declining real income by having fewer children.

    Let’s say our ever-shrinking smart fraction manages to work out big paradigms, a true theory of aging, unifying quantum mechanics, and special relativity, the Central Americans on course to being half(!) the population in just twenty years, do you think they will be able to work out which protein does what, or how to build whatever tech new theories say are possible? We know fusion is possible, but cannot build break-even reactors. If we were smarter, if average IQ went up by 30 points, we would be able to, I am sure. I have not worked out what the average IQ of working-age adults will be in 2040, but it is quite a bit lower than today’s. This is one reason who has babies and how many they have matter.

    I have no doubts we are on the verge of tremendous value from biology, but will we have enough people who can work in labs, or will we be growing fruit and sending it to China? Don’t worry! The large landowners will be able to afford their immortality pills.

    Finally, we live in a democracy. To some extent, it is nominally subject to the will of voters. Trump proved that is not the case. The chances that the political class will start acting in the interests of the public is nil. When the masses are mostly dim and Hispanic, the political class will feel even less interested in policies that help them. Or worse, they will say, “the average American will never be able to work in a CRISPR factory. We should stop funding it. The rich you see, want different things than everyone else. They want cheap servants. The young ones don’t want a smarter population. If they did, we would be well on our way to one. They want cheaper servants and larger diamonds. They want new wives... Back to democracy. Multiethnic democracies do not work without a dominant ethnicity. Political parties do not work when people vote their ethnicity. That’s one reason who has babies matters.

    I somewhat see it as a matter of Physicist Dave’s parasitic verbal elite (though I am very verbal). Improvements in tech strengthen the relative position of STEM-type people, who tend to be spatially and mathematically gifted. Though many are verbally gifted as well (g is a thing).

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    Rob, thank you for your extensive and interesting reply. I have been busy at the moment and thus not able to respond accordingly. Please accept my thanks. I think your points are very valid. For example, I know damn well too many stupid people are having children while too many smart people are not.

    The fact is, it is smart not to have too many kids now, but the stupid people are subsidized and we can’t think of a fair and humane way to cut their reproduction. Farmers and dog breeders are allowed morally to do this, but not us.

    One suspects this periodically results in tragic history that settles the score in a bloody, insane way. Maybe we are heading for yet another such chapter in human history.

    Again, thank you. (I am in a hurry.)

  196. @slumber_j
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Yes: Futurism!!!

    I'm a sucker for the artistic manifestos of the early 20th c., and the Futurist Manifesto has it all: the headlong rhetorical tumult, the hilarity (intentional or inadvertent?), the insane insistence on whatever...

    https://www.italianfuturism.org/manifestos/foundingmanifesto/

    My very favorite sentence from Marinetti's great declaration (a high bar), and the perfect complement to your illustrations:


    A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of explosive breath—a roaring car that seems to ride on grapeshot is more beautiful than the Victory of Samothrace.
     

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    Thank you for your reply. I notice the Manifesto includes this:

    We will glorify war—the world’s only hygiene—militarism, patriotism, the destructive gesture of freedom-bringers, beautiful ideas worth dying for, and scorn for woman.

    My art history professor taught us that World War One quashed Futurism. Apparently many futurist artists and proponents actually served in that war, and some were killed.

    It was the first, modern — dare we say “futurist” war — full of mechanization and speed and the power and excitement that those artists and manifesto writers had argued so loudly for just a few short years earlier. It was an unnecessary bloodbath on a previously unseen scale. It was “the future” of the machines and the power and the speed so admired by the Futurists. My grandfather was in it and survived.

    Again, thank you. I don’t want to be a downer. On the contrary, I find all this just as interesting as you do.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Buzz Mohawk

    In Italy, in interwar years, this movement merged unfortunately into fascism (via Marinetti).

    In Russia the futurism movement was killed by the revolution and the rise of communism. Although some great and influential Soviet artists like Mayakovsky had been associated to the futurist movement in their youth before 1917. And some claim that Eisenstein displayed futurist influence as late as the 1920s.

  197. Astaire’s atypical and astonishing “Long Legged Texas Millionaire Oilman” sequence begins at 0.47.

  198. @Alexandros
    @Altai

    "What is Elvis' country?"

    A place where there are no Jews and no Italians.

    Replies: @Trinity

    LOTS of Italians LOVE Elvis, are you kidding me. And Elvis is also big with Mexicans.

    • Replies: @Alexandros
    @Trinity

    Whites love the country side, Jews and Italians love the city.

    Elvis' country is that part of America where mostly whites live.

  199. @Known Fact
    @Trinity

    At 6'0" I'm a full three inches or more taller than any man in my lineage, and my mother was tiny.

    BTW along with Fred Patek there was 5'5" outfielder Albie Pearson in the 50s and 60s. More relevantly, the great Jose Altuve is just listed at just 5'6"

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Bill Jones

    At 6’0″ I’m a full three inches or more taller than any man in my lineage, and my mother was tiny.

    It suggests that your lineage may not be a Known Fact.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @Bill Jones

    Fortunately I greatly do resemble my father and his father in other respects! My mom was a fine mother and daughter but any bonus IQ points are strictly paternal

  200. @Prester John
    @Feryl

    "Athletes in most sports have gotten quite a bit taller over the last 30 or so years."

    They have indeed. And in all sports. This is one reason why I get a kick out of watching Jose Altuve, who is all of 5'6".

    Replies: @Feryl

    As depressing as it is for “shorties” (guys under 6′), there seems to be more “social engineering” for tall athletes these days. Part of this also could be the fact that high income people are taller on average, and there is so much cultivation of budding athletes by the upper crust these days*. Back in the 70’s only the super rich really invested a lot into their offspring. But part of the “big sort” of the last 20-30 years is the upper middle class going to greater lengths to differentiate themselves from the proles via high investment in their offspring.

    *Note that height hasn’t changed much over the years in sports full of underclass blacks, e.g. basketball and football. However, whiter sports seem to be a lot taller these days which makes sense because whites are far more likely to be in the upper classes than blacks are. And many of those upper class whites are tall.

  201. @Cato
    @Michaeloh

    The Bohemians came to Texas decades after the initial wave of settlement out of the upper South (mostly Tennessee and Kentucky). Tallness probably comes mostly from the latter -- they are a mix of Borderers (Scotch-Irish) and English/Welsh settlers from the Chesapeake. The Borderers come from the Danelaw area of Britain, and are primarily descendants of Danish Vikings.

    Replies: @Feryl

    The Scots-Irish have their own unmistakable phenotype, and they don’t look all that much like the Larsons and Jensens (or Schmidts or Krauses) I grew up with in Minnesota. I would say that upper Midwesterners don’t particularly resemble any type from the British Isles as much as they resemble a hybrid of various Northern Europeans.

    IMO, whites from the Midwest and West (including Texas) make a good case for “hybrid vigor” (more attractive due to less of an exaggerated phenotype) compared to Northeastern whites (Ellis Islanders being very phenotypically apparent+WASPs with less genetic diversity than whites further out west) or Southern whites predominately of British Isles descent.

  202. @Trinity
    @Gary in Gramercy

    Ah, "Diner", I remember that movie because it was supposed to be set in Baltimore and one of the guys was portraying a rabid Baltimore Colts fan.

    Yeppers, Bonanza had to have the most fake scenery on the planet. I could never watch the show for more than 5 minutes but I loved Gunsmoke.

    I guess Gunsmoke vs. Bonanza goes along with Coke vs. Pepsi, Beatles vs. Stones, Batman vs. Superman, etc., you cannot like both. And I always preferred The Munsters over The Adams Family. haha.

    Replies: @Gary in Gramercy

    It took some searching, but I found the relevant scene:

    • Thanks: Trinity
  203. And, from the statuesque (~ 5′ 11″) Audrey Landers, rare footage of her jaw-droppingly self-assured 1980s-glam rendition of the Lone Star State’s unofficial anthem:

  204. @Anonymous
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Astronauts and fighter pilots all have been lower in height for the same reasons. I don’t know if that is true anymore.
     
    The Navy uses a system it calls Anthropometrics to determine what aircraft a pilot can fly. During preflight training, each student's body dimensions are measured and he or she is then assigned an anthropometric code that corresponds to his or her measurements.

    The measurements include a sitting height, buttock-knee length, thumb-tip reach, weight and stature. The sitting height makes sure the individual will have sufficient canopy clearance and that he or she will sit tall enough to see outside the cockpit. The buttock-knee length makes sure he or she can work the ejection seat properly and his or her knees won't hit the front edge of the cockpit when departing. Thumb-tip reach measures the individual's ability to reach the controls in the cockpit. Weight and stature measure his or her overall anthropometric compatibility.

    Today's fighters aren't that bad ergonomically, but I've sat in the cockpits of several WW2 fighters and the seating arrangements ranged from not bad (P-51) to dreadful (Spitfire, P-39, Hien, Bf-109). The F6F had the roomiest cockpit with excellent visibility forward. I understand the P-47 cockpit was also very roomy and comfortable, but I've never sat in one.
    Among Viet Nam War-era fighters and attack planes the cockpits of which I have sat in, the F4 had the roomiest cockpit, the F8's was pretty tight and the A4 quite small. The anthropometric system hadn't been instituted in those days and aviators seemed to be assigned to aircraft solely on the Navy's needs at the time. A lot of aircrew were injured ejecting because they snagged a knee or elbow on the way out. That sort of injury doesn't happen any more.

    Here's a declassified regulation showing what anthropometric codes are assigned to certain aircraft. The aviator must have matching codes to be assigned to each aircraft.

    https://i.imgur.com/WBjdGyz.png

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Brutusale

    Bf-109

    Years ago, I got to sit in a BF-109 that was being restored in Chino, CA. Man, that cockpit was tight (I’m 6’2”). I was pretty much stuck once in it and couldn’t move at all. And I couldn’t see jack behind me – really gave me a renewed appreciation for a bubble canopy.

    Those Luftwaffe pilots must have been tiny. I do recall F.W. von Mellenthin writing about being astonished by the large stature of Australian prisoners captured by the Panzerarmee Afrika during World War II. Given that even American and Australian men of the time were relatively short by today’s standards, the Germans of the day must have been quite short.

  205. Tallest people in the world, are supposedly (if we believe YouTube) in South Sudan, seeming to be some kind of a unique tribal group.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    Although according to YouTube the world's tallest individual is a gentle giant in Turkey, less interestingly due (I guess as for most giants) to having a tumour causing excess growth hormone.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrLzhQA_yWQ

    Replies: @Cowtown Rebel

    , @Ed Case
    @Dmitry

    Weston Price measured the Nuer of Sudan at around 7'6", about 6" taller than the Masai.
    He noticed that the grain growing Nuer were not stronly built and lacked strength and stamina, unlike the cattle herding Masai.

  206. @Dmitry
    Tallest people in the world, are supposedly (if we believe YouTube) in South Sudan, seeming to be some kind of a unique tribal group.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u03kNQNclGY

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Ed Case

    Although according to YouTube the world’s tallest individual is a gentle giant in Turkey, less interestingly due (I guess as for most giants) to having a tumour causing excess growth hormone.

    • Replies: @Cowtown Rebel
    @Dmitry

    Are these the shortest people in the World?

    https://www.the-okapi.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/John-with-Pygmies.jpg

  207. @Buzz Mohawk
    @slumber_j

    Thank you for your reply. I notice the Manifesto includes this:


    We will glorify war—the world’s only hygiene—militarism, patriotism, the destructive gesture of freedom-bringers, beautiful ideas worth dying for, and scorn for woman.
     
    My art history professor taught us that World War One quashed Futurism. Apparently many futurist artists and proponents actually served in that war, and some were killed.

    It was the first, modern -- dare we say "futurist" war -- full of mechanization and speed and the power and excitement that those artists and manifesto writers had argued so loudly for just a few short years earlier. It was an unnecessary bloodbath on a previously unseen scale. It was "the future" of the machines and the power and the speed so admired by the Futurists. My grandfather was in it and survived.

    Again, thank you. I don't want to be a downer. On the contrary, I find all this just as interesting as you do.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    In Italy, in interwar years, this movement merged unfortunately into fascism (via Marinetti).

    In Russia the futurism movement was killed by the revolution and the rise of communism. Although some great and influential Soviet artists like Mayakovsky had been associated to the futurist movement in their youth before 1917. And some claim that Eisenstein displayed futurist influence as late as the 1920s.

  208. @Trinity
    @Cowtown Rebel

    Well the best P4P boxer today is an Irishman as well with a Mexican name. haha. You know damn well that Canelo Alvarez has an Irishman in the woodpile.

    Yeppers, I know boxing isn't as popular as it used to be but it seems to be making a comeback, no thanks to people like (((ESPN))) though. I find it interesting that several Jewish or half Jewish boxing aficionados such as Teddy Atlas predicted a Wilder victory. Wilder can't fight a lick and while he does have power, he largely PADDED his record with a lists of out and out bums before capturing the title. Wilder fights remind you of the two trannies you see fighting in a McDonald's parking lot at 2 AM. The guy cannot even skip rope properly, I kid you not.

    Honestly, I know the guy is a former basketball player and became a fighter relatively late but all he has is a devastating right hand. It BURNS legacy sports writers and sports networks now that Whites are not only dominating in the heavyweight class but they have also made an impact in all weight classes particularly from middleweight to heavyweight. ESPN is as anti-White as CNN and although not a top tier sport any more, the heavyweight champion is still the biggest title in sports and ESPN and others know this, losing in boxing is way more personal than dropping a doubleheader in baseball. Another sport that seems to be gaining in popularity in the fringes at least is arm wrestling. This sport seems to be becoming more popular lately, even though arm wrestling has been around for ages, it was always treated as a side show of sorts. Yet another sport dominated by Whites.

    Replies: @Cowtown Rebel, @prosa123

    Yeah, I’ve always suspected that Canelo is likely a descendant of some deserter from the San Patricio Brigade of traitors.

    What’s with these Irishmen wanting to be Mestizos? Robert Francis “Weto” O’Rourke immediately springs to mind.

    But, it is funny. I observed a long time ago that the Mexicans were holding their own against the Mighty Joe Youngs of the Squared Circle. Now, it seems that someone forgot to tell the Ukrainians about the athletic superiority of the Negroid, and they, too, are now a significant presence in the sport.

    I think one of the reasons that the Klitchkos stopped fighting in the U. S. was because of what occurred after Andrew Galatta was disqualified for repeatedly hitting Riddick Bowe below the belt. That was really a sad occurrence, and, though Galatta had a reputation as a dirty fighter, I’m not certain that he was intentionally striking Bowe in the groin. Galatta frequently used an uppercut to the abdomen on previous opponents who were typically about six inches shorter than Bowe. He may have had trouble adjusting, because both fighters were taller than what was common then. Regardless, Galatta was clearly outboxing Bowe and the hometown crowd was furious. Even though Galatta was disqualified, it didn’t stop a melee from ensuing, brought about by the embarrassment that the Negroes felt by having a White Boy dominating one of their own.

    And, Yes. Now that a gigantic, sloppy, though technically skilled, Gypsy has ascended to the Championship, perhaps the long cherished myth of the Negroes absolute dominance in Heavyweight Boxing, in particular, is finally starting to shatter after 70 or 80 years.

  209. Remember reading Fritz Leiber’s short novel “A Specter Is Haunting Texas” about growth-hormone-enhanced Texans controlling North America and enslaving short Mexicans.

  210. @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    Although according to YouTube the world's tallest individual is a gentle giant in Turkey, less interestingly due (I guess as for most giants) to having a tumour causing excess growth hormone.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrLzhQA_yWQ

    Replies: @Cowtown Rebel

    Are these the shortest people in the World?

  211. @Trinity
    @additionalMike

    I beg to differ on Maxie. Max was a tremendous puncher but like Wilder who is also a powerful puncher, Max couldn't box oranges. I would say that after Carnera actually learned a little bit entirely on his own, Carnera was always in shape and like I say had pretty good stamina for such a huge guy, Carnera was probably a better "boxer" than Baer and Willard. Carnera actually learned how to throw a decent left jab and according to Jack Sharkey there was some sting to it. Baer throw wild haymakers, backhands, and was a dirty fighter. Take a look at the Baer vs. Max Schmeling fight if you ever find the time. Baer should have been disqualified. While Baer wasn't as bad as he is portrayed in the film, "The Cinderella Man", he was a dirty fighter to say the least. Pure puncher and not much else was Baer, IF anything Baer is overrated instead of underrated like so many boxing and sportswriters claim. Max was born in Omaha, Nebraska, I told you guys about HUGE guys in Nebraska. haha.

    Good ole Max Baer Jr, another tall guy, was once accused of beating up Victoria Principle, the tiny starlet best known for her role in "Dallas." Now Vicky could have been a major class bitch but how on earth does a man bring himself to hit something that good looking?? Jethro might not have been such a nice guy in REAL life??

    Replies: @Ed Case

    Carnera was probably a better “boxer” than Baer and Willard.

    Carnera suffered from gigantism and was retarded.
    Jack Sharkey was hardly likely to admit to taking a dive for the title on his deathbed after having denied it for 60 years.
    Jess Willard had the same problem Sonny Liston had, he’s thrashed all the other contenders on the way to the title so no one wanted to fight him.
    Gunboat Smith thought the Johnson fight was legit, Jack couldn’t beat Willard.
    In Pete Heller’s In This Corner: 40 Champions tell their story
    Smith alludes to the fact that Johnson was a pimp, the real reason he wasn’t wanted as Heavyweight Champion.

  212. @Dmitry
    Tallest people in the world, are supposedly (if we believe YouTube) in South Sudan, seeming to be some kind of a unique tribal group.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u03kNQNclGY

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Ed Case

    Weston Price measured the Nuer of Sudan at around 7’6″, about 6″ taller than the Masai.
    He noticed that the grain growing Nuer were not stronly built and lacked strength and stamina, unlike the cattle herding Masai.

  213. @Bill P
    My pet theory is that cattle ranching selects for height. Cultures that rely heavily on cattle tend to be relatively tall, and Texas was settled in large part by cow people.

    I got this theory by observing the local Dutch dairymen where I live. They are huge. African cow people are also tall. I think it must make the job much easier. Cows can easily trample little people, who have a hard time seeing over them.

    Replies: @Yancey Ward, @Steve-O, @Charlotte, @Alice in Wonderland, @Old and Grumpy, @Lagertha, @Joe Paluka

    People who drink lots of milk, eat lots of cheese and get lots of protein in their diets tend to be tall. Texas was also settled by a lot of Germans, who were tall people to begin with. If they took the average height of Texans now, they would be much much shorter due to all the Mexicans that have come in in the past 30-40 years.

  214. The tallest people in Europe in the present are the Dutch and the Bosnian/Montenegrins.

  215. @Trinity
    @Ed Case

    Willard was made to order for Dempsey. Dempsey feasted on larger men. Willard was hardly a great fighter but he beat Jack Johnson fair and square. Johnson throwing that fight is nothing more than Jewish sportswriter horseshit. Johnson was fat, out of shape and 38 years old. However, Willard was hardly a spring chicken, Willard who started boxing late was already 33 when he fought Johnson, and lest we forget, a long time ago any fighter over 30 was considered a bit past it, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott types were uber rare back then and are not that plentiful even today. Hell, Ali was considered shot at 32 when he fought George Foreman.

    Willard leaned his 240lb 6'6" bulk on Johnson's body and that and the broiling hot Cuban sun did The Galveston Giant in. Johnson was hardly a Galveston Giant though, Jack stood about 6'1" to 6' 1 1/2 tall and barely tipped the scales above 200lbs in his prime, sometimes he weighted below 200lbs for his prime fights.

    Back to Willard. Willard was old when he fought Dempsey, he was 34 years old, and like Jack Johnson, Willard was flabby and out of shape, and over confident. Willard actually thought he might kill the smaller 187lb Dempsey. Dempsey was known as Jack The Giant Killer because he beat huge men like Fred Fulton, Willard and Luis Firpo who although only 6'3" and 216lbs he was considered big for that time. Fulton was 6'5", all in short order. Joe Louis was another giant killer, having beat huge guys like 6'6" Buddy Baer twice, 6'4" 250lb Abe Simon who Louis beat twice as well, and 265lb 6'6" Carnera.

    Dempsey and Louis EXCELLED at beating larger guys whereas smaller and quicker guys gave them trouble. Dempsey was said to have been embarrassed by middleweight Harry Greb while sparring and Dempsey won maybe 1-2 rounds in his two fights against Gene Tunney. Louis was bested for 13 rounds by a light heavweight Billy Conn, some reports say Conn didn't even weigh 170lbs for the first Louis fight.

    Unlike Dempsey and Louis, Jack Johnson made his name fighting smaller men like Tommy Burns and Sam Langford. Carnera being retarded. Not really, where did you obtain that lie?

    Replies: @Trinity

    Oops. Willard was 33 going on 34 when he beat Jack Johnson. Johnson was sooooooo overrated. Willard was a huge guy but like Carnera he had extraordinary stamina for a guy so large. The movie, The Great White Hope is really a comedy. The TRUTH is that Johnson was fat, under trained and lost to a much larger man. Johnson as I said feasted on little guys for most of his career. He won the title from the shortest heavyweight champion ever the 5′ 7 1/2″ Tommy Burns. Two of Johnson’s big name opponents were middleweight Stanley Ketchel, all 5’9″ and 165lbs of him, and Sam Langford who was maybe 5’6 1/2″ to 5′ 7 1/2″ tall depending on the source and at best about 165-180lbs. Langford was like a miniature Mike Tyson in some respects. Anyhow, this meant that Willard was 37-38 years old when Dempsey massacred him, the same age as Jack Johnson when Willard beat him fair and square.

  216. @Bill Jones
    @Known Fact


    At 6’0″ I’m a full three inches or more taller than any man in my lineage, and my mother was tiny.
     
    It suggests that your lineage may not be a Known Fact.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    Fortunately I greatly do resemble my father and his father in other respects! My mom was a fine mother and daughter but any bonus IQ points are strictly paternal

  217. @Anonymous
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Astronauts and fighter pilots all have been lower in height for the same reasons. I don’t know if that is true anymore.
     
    The Navy uses a system it calls Anthropometrics to determine what aircraft a pilot can fly. During preflight training, each student's body dimensions are measured and he or she is then assigned an anthropometric code that corresponds to his or her measurements.

    The measurements include a sitting height, buttock-knee length, thumb-tip reach, weight and stature. The sitting height makes sure the individual will have sufficient canopy clearance and that he or she will sit tall enough to see outside the cockpit. The buttock-knee length makes sure he or she can work the ejection seat properly and his or her knees won't hit the front edge of the cockpit when departing. Thumb-tip reach measures the individual's ability to reach the controls in the cockpit. Weight and stature measure his or her overall anthropometric compatibility.

    Today's fighters aren't that bad ergonomically, but I've sat in the cockpits of several WW2 fighters and the seating arrangements ranged from not bad (P-51) to dreadful (Spitfire, P-39, Hien, Bf-109). The F6F had the roomiest cockpit with excellent visibility forward. I understand the P-47 cockpit was also very roomy and comfortable, but I've never sat in one.
    Among Viet Nam War-era fighters and attack planes the cockpits of which I have sat in, the F4 had the roomiest cockpit, the F8's was pretty tight and the A4 quite small. The anthropometric system hadn't been instituted in those days and aviators seemed to be assigned to aircraft solely on the Navy's needs at the time. A lot of aircrew were injured ejecting because they snagged a knee or elbow on the way out. That sort of injury doesn't happen any more.

    Here's a declassified regulation showing what anthropometric codes are assigned to certain aircraft. The aviator must have matching codes to be assigned to each aircraft.

    https://i.imgur.com/WBjdGyz.png

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Brutusale

    In his autobiography, Chuck Yeager talked about how the fighter test pilots always got their asses kicked by the bomber test pilots in the beer-fueled brawls at Pancho’s because they were much smaller guys.

    • LOL: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Brutusale


    fighter test pilots… bomber test pilots
     
    I have a cousin who was in Navy flight training. His father went on and on about how he was going to get a fighter jet. The rest of the family didn’t hear much after that, so some of us asked, “What did he get? Did he get a jet fighter?”

    Uncle: “No, he didn’t.”

    “Did he get an attack aircraft?”

    “No.”

    “AWACS?” “ASW?” “EW?” “Transport”?”

    “No, no.”

    “Well, what the heck did he get?”

    “He got a helicopter.”

    “Oh.”

    Replies: @Cowtown Rebel

  218. @Brutusale
    @Anonymous

    In his autobiography, Chuck Yeager talked about how the fighter test pilots always got their asses kicked by the bomber test pilots in the beer-fueled brawls at Pancho's because they were much smaller guys.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    fighter test pilots… bomber test pilots

    I have a cousin who was in Navy flight training. His father went on and on about how he was going to get a fighter jet. The rest of the family didn’t hear much after that, so some of us asked, “What did he get? Did he get a jet fighter?”

    Uncle: “No, he didn’t.”

    “Did he get an attack aircraft?”

    “No.”

    “AWACS?” “ASW?” “EW?” “Transport”?”

    “No, no.”

    “Well, what the heck did he get?”

    “He got a helicopter.”

    “Oh.”

    • Replies: @Cowtown Rebel
    @Twinkie

    I once knew a gentleman who had been a test pilot for Bell Helicopter flying Cobras. I don't know if he flew any jet propelled aircraft or not, but he said that flying a helicopter is much more difficult than flying a fixed wing aircraft. Taking off and landing are the most challenging aspects of flying an airplane, whereas, according to him, flying a helicopter is a balancing act requiring the pilot to constantly make adjustments to maintain control.

    The flexibility and agility of the helicopter make it ideal for search and rescue, especially in remote and inaccessible places. It is also an excellent platform for surveillance as utilized by the police and news agencies. Attack Copters are ferocious. I wouldn't scoff at a helicopter pilot.

    Another friend of mine told me that when he wanted to go into the Air Force, he passed all of the requirements for a career as an aviator. The recruiter flat out told him, in a rare instance of candor, that, unless he was the Son of a Senator, he could forget being assigned to a fighter jet. He decided to remain a civilian.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  219. Even in the 90s this was true. It was noticeable when I came to New York, visited later by my friend’s sister who commented how everyone in New York was short

    That being said, I also remember a Chad in New York surrounded by tall blondes dressed up for some social event. Didn’t see much of their faces though; I think I was like 15. Now I am the Chad

  220. @Trinity
    @Cowtown Rebel

    Well the best P4P boxer today is an Irishman as well with a Mexican name. haha. You know damn well that Canelo Alvarez has an Irishman in the woodpile.

    Yeppers, I know boxing isn't as popular as it used to be but it seems to be making a comeback, no thanks to people like (((ESPN))) though. I find it interesting that several Jewish or half Jewish boxing aficionados such as Teddy Atlas predicted a Wilder victory. Wilder can't fight a lick and while he does have power, he largely PADDED his record with a lists of out and out bums before capturing the title. Wilder fights remind you of the two trannies you see fighting in a McDonald's parking lot at 2 AM. The guy cannot even skip rope properly, I kid you not.

    Honestly, I know the guy is a former basketball player and became a fighter relatively late but all he has is a devastating right hand. It BURNS legacy sports writers and sports networks now that Whites are not only dominating in the heavyweight class but they have also made an impact in all weight classes particularly from middleweight to heavyweight. ESPN is as anti-White as CNN and although not a top tier sport any more, the heavyweight champion is still the biggest title in sports and ESPN and others know this, losing in boxing is way more personal than dropping a doubleheader in baseball. Another sport that seems to be gaining in popularity in the fringes at least is arm wrestling. This sport seems to be becoming more popular lately, even though arm wrestling has been around for ages, it was always treated as a side show of sorts. Yet another sport dominated by Whites.

    Replies: @Cowtown Rebel, @prosa123

    Canelo Alvarez is such an excellent fighter in part because of his light coloration. As a child growing up in Mexico other kids would taunt him that his mother must have fooled around with a white man. Although a peaceful sort, he would be obliged to get into fistfights to defend his mother’s honor and this developed his fighting skills.

  221. @Trinity
    @Alexandros

    LOTS of Italians LOVE Elvis, are you kidding me. And Elvis is also big with Mexicans.

    Replies: @Alexandros

    Whites love the country side, Jews and Italians love the city.

    Elvis’ country is that part of America where mostly whites live.

  222. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Trinity

    Chuck Connors kissed my mom.

    When I was a kid and The Rifleman was a popular TV show that I watched, Connors happened to be having dinner in the same restaurant as my parents one night. My Mom swooned when she told the story about meeting him and him kissing her.

    Dad was evidently okay with it, understandably. He gave me a Winchester BB gun soon after, so I guess it was all good.


    https://media.tenor.com/images/bf700aa2e6625a9df5ff7d3462ee377a/tenor.gif

    Replies: @Trinity, @Jim Don Bob

    One of the greatest TV openers ever, especially his look at the end.

  223. @Twinkie
    @Brutusale


    fighter test pilots… bomber test pilots
     
    I have a cousin who was in Navy flight training. His father went on and on about how he was going to get a fighter jet. The rest of the family didn’t hear much after that, so some of us asked, “What did he get? Did he get a jet fighter?”

    Uncle: “No, he didn’t.”

    “Did he get an attack aircraft?”

    “No.”

    “AWACS?” “ASW?” “EW?” “Transport”?”

    “No, no.”

    “Well, what the heck did he get?”

    “He got a helicopter.”

    “Oh.”

    Replies: @Cowtown Rebel

    I once knew a gentleman who had been a test pilot for Bell Helicopter flying Cobras. I don’t know if he flew any jet propelled aircraft or not, but he said that flying a helicopter is much more difficult than flying a fixed wing aircraft. Taking off and landing are the most challenging aspects of flying an airplane, whereas, according to him, flying a helicopter is a balancing act requiring the pilot to constantly make adjustments to maintain control.

    The flexibility and agility of the helicopter make it ideal for search and rescue, especially in remote and inaccessible places. It is also an excellent platform for surveillance as utilized by the police and news agencies. Attack Copters are ferocious. I wouldn’t scoff at a helicopter pilot.

    Another friend of mine told me that when he wanted to go into the Air Force, he passed all of the requirements for a career as an aviator. The recruiter flat out told him, in a rare instance of candor, that, unless he was the Son of a Senator, he could forget being assigned to a fighter jet. He decided to remain a civilian.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Cowtown Rebel


    I don’t know if he flew any jet propelled aircraft or not, but he said that flying a helicopter is much more difficult than flying a fixed wing aircraft.
     
    As my cousin is fond of saying, "Man, piloting a rotary wing is hard - all my limbs are engaged and I can't even wipe my face."

    Attack Copters are ferocious. I wouldn’t scoff at a helicopter pilot.
     
    That'd be army choppers. My Navy cousin's moment of glory came when he got to be the (air) taxi driver for the operators who hunted Saddam Hussein.

    He is retired now and flies emergency airlift to hospitals. He still carries the H&K USP 45 I gave him overseas (I found that unwieldy and switched to a Browning Hi-Power during that time).
  224. @Cowtown Rebel
    @Twinkie

    I once knew a gentleman who had been a test pilot for Bell Helicopter flying Cobras. I don't know if he flew any jet propelled aircraft or not, but he said that flying a helicopter is much more difficult than flying a fixed wing aircraft. Taking off and landing are the most challenging aspects of flying an airplane, whereas, according to him, flying a helicopter is a balancing act requiring the pilot to constantly make adjustments to maintain control.

    The flexibility and agility of the helicopter make it ideal for search and rescue, especially in remote and inaccessible places. It is also an excellent platform for surveillance as utilized by the police and news agencies. Attack Copters are ferocious. I wouldn't scoff at a helicopter pilot.

    Another friend of mine told me that when he wanted to go into the Air Force, he passed all of the requirements for a career as an aviator. The recruiter flat out told him, in a rare instance of candor, that, unless he was the Son of a Senator, he could forget being assigned to a fighter jet. He decided to remain a civilian.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I don’t know if he flew any jet propelled aircraft or not, but he said that flying a helicopter is much more difficult than flying a fixed wing aircraft.

    As my cousin is fond of saying, “Man, piloting a rotary wing is hard – all my limbs are engaged and I can’t even wipe my face.”

    Attack Copters are ferocious. I wouldn’t scoff at a helicopter pilot.

    That’d be army choppers. My Navy cousin’s moment of glory came when he got to be the (air) taxi driver for the operators who hunted Saddam Hussein.

    He is retired now and flies emergency airlift to hospitals. He still carries the H&K USP 45 I gave him overseas (I found that unwieldy and switched to a Browning Hi-Power during that time).

    • Thanks: Cowtown Rebel
  225. they were tall, just like the Tartarians – they were Tartarians.

  226. Tartaria is half of my ancient lineage. Tartarians built all the great cathedrals, churches, bell towers, towers and arches – we built all the castles and the Taj Mahal, the Hagia Sophia. We built fuckin’ everything. Check out the clock in Prague – 1410? – never has stopped? WTF?????????????????

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