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From the NYT Opinion Page:

In My Iowa Town, We Need Immigrants

Some state Republicans were for building a border wall before Donald Trump gave it a thought. But in many rural areas, immigrants are keeping the place alive.

By Art Cullen

Art Cullen, the editor and co-owner of The Storm Lake Times in Iowa, won the Pulitzer Prize for editorial writing in 2017 and is the author of the forthcoming “Storm Lake: A Chronicle of Change, Resilience, and Hope From a Heartland Newspaper.”

Interestingly, the NYT wrote just last year about the wage-depressing impact of immigration on the major industry in Storm Lake, meatpacking, where inflation-adjusted wages are only 35% of what they were in 1980,

STORM LAKE, Iowa — When Dan Smith first went to work at the pork processing plant in Storm Lake in 1980, pretty much the only way to nab that kind of union job was to have a father, an uncle or a brother already there. The pay, he recalled, was $16 an hour, with benefits — enough to own a home, a couple of cars, a camper and a boat, while your wife stayed home with the children. …

We were just discussing in the comments why in large parts of the country outside the Southeast, it seems like you don’t see boats being towed down the highway today as often as you did a generation ago. Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.

We used to have hog bellies rotting in the slaughterhouses, but now we have boats rotting in the driveways. As the George Mason Econ dept. would point out, who needs a boat when you’ve got a smartphone? Anyway, ask not what The Economy can do for you, ask what you can do for The Economy.

The union is long gone, and so are most of the white faces of men who once labored in the broiling heat of the killing floor and the icy chill of the production lines. What hasn’t changed much is Mr. Smith’s hourly wage, which is still about $16 an hour, the same as when he started 37 years ago. Had his wages kept up with inflation, he would be earning about $47 an hour.

 
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  1. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:

    • Replies: @fnn
    @Anonymous

    The phrase "Who is America?" sounds rather odd, but I think I've heard something similar before.

    http://acrossdifficultcountry.blogspot.com/2005/01/one-is-esoteric-straussian-other-went.html


    America is not only for the whites , but it is for all. Who is the America? The American is you, me and that. When we go to America we will become Americans and there is no a race or nationalism called America and the Americans are those Africans, Indians, Chinese, and Europeans and whoever goes to America will become American...American is for all of us and the whole world had made and created America. All the people all over the world had made America and it shall accordingly be for all of us. I will never feel ashamed when I claim for my right in America and it will not be strange when I raise my voice in America.
     
    - Col. Moammar Gadhafi

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cagey Beast

    , @Corvinus
    @Anonymous

    So when Roy Moore says that Alabama has ALWAYS been a state that has valued individual freedom, liberty, equality, and sexuality, and appreciated the efforts of people to get it, is he directly or indirectly supporting the inclusion of immigrants for our nation, considering that it also lured foreign automobile manufacturers replete with non-union jobs?

    Asking for a friend.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  2. Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.

    Actual statistics would be nicer than Lagertha’s anecdotes, charming as they are.

    Also, I take your large point (i.e. the meat packer in question (and many like him although again some sort of educated estimate of how may people are in that boat and how much immigration has affected wages would have been nice) now makes 70% less than he used to, thanks to all of the amigos now working in the plant) , but hobbies like boating, golf, tennis, etc. go in and out of fashion.

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can’t afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too – I have no idea.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Jack D

    There isn't as much to be into with cars now. You can't mod them much, and a basic $5000 used car can go 120 mph, if you dare.

    There isn't much to restore either. Classic cars from the 80s and 90s are ugly and slow.

    When I was 11 to 15 my friends often had sports car posters on their walls and as their PC background picture. I doubt this is mainstream and common now.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Moral Stone
    @Jack D

    I know some guys in their 30s who are into cars, but as a hobby it's more limited and expensive. You just can't work on modern production cars in your garage the way you can older ones, which ups the entry price.

    As for boats, I looked up some stats on sailing and it's nowhere near its peak during the baby boomer young adult years. Part of this is demographics, part of it is price, part is better entertainment options. But certainly part of it is a fad, and that part is cyclical. It's trendy again now to say "let's go sailing," because it sets you apart from (and by the fuzzy logic of social status, above) the "let's go watch netflix" crowd.

    Replies: @anon

    , @Twinkie
    @Jack D


    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can’t afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular.
     
    To be fair, with vintage cars, you could pretty much open the hood, step inside and work on the mechanical parts yourself.

    Today, you plug in a device and it tells you what part needs to be replaced whole. Cars have dozens of computers now.

    My wife's family owns quite a bit of land in the Midwest, and one bit of the portfolio of property is leased to a lake marina. From what I heard from the business operator there, the clientele for even a lake marina has become quite upscale in the recent years. Apparently, there were more middle and lower-middle class customers with small boats in the past; now it's more upscale watercraft with a decidedly upper middle class clientele. I don't know how much of this is true, but that's what I heard.
    , @Another Canadian
    @Jack D

    We still have a lot of boats up here. We also have a booming cottage culture here with lots of fishing, water skiing and pleasure boating. The Toronto Boat Show is huge.

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D

    The decaying boat (Db as opposed dB decibels) is a reliable metric of distress.

    We are all in this boat together.

    http://cdn.directexpose.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/sportingz-com.jpg

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe, @MikeatMikedotMike

    , @Cloudbuster
    @Jack D

    Old boats decaying in yards has been a feature of rural locations with nearby water forever, as far as I know.

    The thing with boats is, they seem like a great idea. But then you buy one and after a couple outings the shine wears off and it becomes a chore and only a really small percentage are of the type who continue to think "Wow! This is something I want to do every weekend!"

    A large percentage are of the type, "I keep meaning to take that boat out, but, you know, other stuff always gets in the way...."

    Replies: @Jack D, @Johann Ricke, @Coburn

    , @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    Recreation has fashions.

    But the plain fact remains: labor is market commodity too. Immigrants reduce wages. (It's not complicated. In fact the reduction in wages is precisely what creates the "economic value" that immigrant cheerleaders are cheering about.)

    There's never any need for immigration. It's proponets basically have one of three agendas:
    -- cheap labor
    -- cheap votes (create more political dependents)
    -- hatred of the existing population and desire to break it up and/or replace it.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Jim bob Lassiter
    @Jack D

    When I was 16 in 1970 and still at home and in high school I had a part time job when school was in session and I worked full time during summer in retail paying about $1.00 an hour. With that, I could take flight instruction in a Cessna 150 for 18.00 and hour and after soloing could rent same plane for 13.00 an hour as well as a J-3 Cub for 10.00 an hour. By the time I went to college I had 40 solo hours logged with a student license and another 40 on an expired student license. College and rapidly accelerating costs of sport aviation precluded further dalliances as a dilettante flyboy.

    All of that would be impossible today for the same 16 y/o boy.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @MEH 0910
    @Jack D

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1025548488178843648

  3. I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can’t afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too – I have no idea.

    It was then that the fox realized that even if he had been able to reach the grapes, they were not ripe after all, and would probably have been far too sour to enjoy.

    • Agree: JMcG
    • Replies: @Anon
    @Alec Leamas

    He has a point. How many guys had a sweet gaming setup in the 70's?

    Replies: @Lot

  4. I have no doubt that, any day now, the NYT will run a counterpoint opinion piece by an Iowan against more immigrants. They DO want both sides of the story, don’t they?

    • Replies: @Corn
    @NonVibrant

    I’m sure they will. The headline will read “Ominous Growth of White Nationalism in Iowa”

  5. anon[411] • Disclaimer says:

    Had his wages kept up with inflation, he would be earning about $47 an hour.

    $47 an hour in a midwest Iowa town is great wages for a physical labor job. This is a shocking reminder of what decent wages looked like, what the middle class looked like, and just how far down we’ve come. Yes the work was hard – so what? The grandsons of these workers are either heroin addicts or public college students getting degrees they won’t use when they get a job bagging groceries at the organic food coop.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @anon


    Yes the work was hard – so what? The grandsons of these workers are either heroin addicts or public college students getting degrees they won’t use when they get a job bagging groceries at the organic food coop.
     
    Point taken. Though, to be fair to Iowans, I should note that there is quite a bit of brain drain from Iowa (e.g. there is a huge bunch of them working for Boeing in the Pacific Northwest out of U. of Iowa and Iowa State). So it's a bit unfair to say that their children are bagging groceries. Those are the guys who couldn't make it out of the state (or were unwilling to chase high-paying jobs elsewhere).
    , @ScarletNumber
    @anon

    $47/hr for a job a retard can do seems excessive.

    Replies: @MarkinLA

  6. Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you’d have to become a vegetarian.

    • Replies: @Whiskey
    @anony-mouse

    Have you priced meat regularly? Chicken is $1.99 a pound for a whole fryer mostly. Hamburger is $6 a pound in SoCal.

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @anony-mouse

    Not if you were making $47/hr. at your own blue-collar job. A rising tide lifts all boats, speaking of boats.

    Inflation is an insidious hidden tax, that only men like Ron Paul try to teach people about. People don't want to hear that complicated economic stuff though. See, it'd be lots harder for the employers to just keep cutting pay in actual dollars, even with all the cheap labor brought in, without people noticing. Instead, 10 years go by, and, even with your yuuuge 50 cent/hr raises each year, your money buys only 3/4 of what it did.

    I think most people just don't have much of a memory for what prices were, especially on the smaller items. Additionally lots, of Americans are too proud to ask what something costs, if it's not clear, and/or too proud to say "nope, keep it - I'll look elsewhere". They call that "being cheap".

    Replies: @27 year old

    , @Anonymous
    @anony-mouse

    Not really, because the wage structure of the economy would have looked different. With working class jobs like meatpacking providing a higher floor for the economy's wages, wages for middle and upper middle class jobs would be even higher.

    , @Lot
    @anony-mouse

    I considered vegetarianism, but then I learned from Ron Unz's recent expose that drinking the blood of kidnapped children was part of my Jewish heritage.

    , @ben tillman
    @anony-mouse


    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you’d have to become a vegetarian.
     
    Are you serious? He was making that much in 1980, and we didn't have to become vegetarians then.
    , @Alden
    @anony-mouse

    Ah yes, the old I’m the only person who deserves a decent wage syndrome.

    He’s lucky he still has a job. A common trick was to close the plant down for remodeling and installing new equipment. A year later the plant would be re opened with a brand new all illegal Hispanic work force

    And a federally Ford Tides foundation funded brand new Legal Services for Hispanics office would open up at the same time and start suing the school district for bi lingual services, county for more welfare and landlords who don’t want 20 people living in a small 3 bedroom house.

    Vdare.com has lots of stories about this kind of thing in the Midwest.

    , @Ibound1
    @anony-mouse

    Selling your country for cheaper bacon and sausage? America was worth more to me than that.

    , @AnotherDad
    @anony-mouse


    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you’d have to become a vegetarian.
     
    Your meat might cost--generously--20% more with a decently paid native workforce.

    On the other hand, the nation would be 20% smaller, your house--in any coastal region--would cost 50% less, to be in a neighborhood with "good schools", your taxes would be lower, your roads less crowded, your kids future brighter ...
    , @Frank the Prof
    @anony-mouse


    If he was making $47 you’d have to become a vegetarian
     
    I checked with an inflation calculator: https://www.officialdata.org/Uncooked-ground-beef/price-inflation/1975
    The price of ground beef has risen about the same rate as inflation. So it seems that savings in labor costs didn't translate into lower beef prices.
  7. Lot says:
    @Jack D

    Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.
     
    Actual statistics would be nicer than Lagertha's anecdotes, charming as they are.

    Also, I take your large point (i.e. the meat packer in question (and many like him although again some sort of educated estimate of how may people are in that boat and how much immigration has affected wages would have been nice) now makes 70% less than he used to, thanks to all of the amigos now working in the plant) , but hobbies like boating, golf, tennis, etc. go in and out of fashion.

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can't afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too - I have no idea.

    Replies: @Lot, @Moral Stone, @Twinkie, @Another Canadian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Cloudbuster, @AnotherDad, @Jim bob Lassiter, @MEH 0910

    There isn’t as much to be into with cars now. You can’t mod them much, and a basic $5000 used car can go 120 mph, if you dare.

    There isn’t much to restore either. Classic cars from the 80s and 90s are ugly and slow.

    When I was 11 to 15 my friends often had sports car posters on their walls and as their PC background picture. I doubt this is mainstream and common now.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Lot


    There isn’t much to restore either. Classic cars from the 80s and 90s are ugly and slow.
     
    Vintage muscle cars from the 60's and 70's are beautiful and powerful (and have that street-vibrating noise). But, they can't maneuver for life and are pretty dangerous (no modern safety equipment).
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Lot


    There isn’t much to restore either. Classic cars from the 80s and 90s are ugly and slow.
     
    It's aerodynamics, encouraged by CAFE. I remember a farm kid back in the '90s referring to cars of the day as "potatoes", because that was their shape.
  8. anon[348] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s amazing how stupid and naive liberals continue to be about immigration. They think all humans are interchangeable, that a large number of Latin American, African, Middle Eastern or Southeast Asian immigrants will be just like a large number of WASP immigrants. Someone needs to send this moron to East L.A., New Mexico, or some of the Latino neighborhoods in NYC, Chicago, SF, and see how wonderful these places are to live. The bars on store windows should be a dead giveaway.

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    @anon

    I think republicans are the ones being stupid and naïve. The Democrats know exactly what they're doing: importing votes.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @istevefan
    @anon

    I don't think they are stupid. They know immigrants will help them at the ballot box, and they know demographic and cultural change greatly upsets their arch enemy, i.e. us.

    Recall the memo from someone in Tony Blair's cabinet that stated Labour wanted to use immigration to 'rub the right's nose in diversity'.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @anon


    It’s amazing how stupid and naive liberals continue to be about immigration.
     
    They're not stupid, they're not naive, and they're not liberal.

    They're cynical, conniving bastards. And increasingly authoritarian ones, to boot.
    , @Anonymous
    @anon


    They think all humans are interchangeable
     
    This seems to be a commonly held belief among people who rule. The communists of old simply viewed human beings as cogs in a giant machine. So do the GDP uber alles crowd, regardless of whether they call themselves liberal or conservative. In the former it was the Central Committee calling the shots with five-year plans, in the latter it's the invisible hand. Either way, it's incredibly dehumanizing.

    Of course, thus far we've been able to avoid the massive body counts of the former, but I remain pessimistic. Our overlords have basically bet the farm on the idea that we can keep producing enough new baubles every year to keep the masses entertained and distracted and that the music will never really stop. Maybe it never will, but if it does, we'll be left with a massive number of different groups to fight one another for resources. It's easy to ignore differences when you're not fighting each other for your next meal.

    Ethnic and racial identities are stubborn things that are hard to eradicate, and they have an annoying habit of becoming more important when the old order collapses.
  9. @anony-mouse
    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you'd have to become a vegetarian.

    Replies: @Whiskey, @Achmed E. Newman, @Anonymous, @Lot, @ben tillman, @Alden, @Ibound1, @AnotherDad, @Frank the Prof

    Have you priced meat regularly? Chicken is $1.99 a pound for a whole fryer mostly. Hamburger is $6 a pound in SoCal.

  10. @anony-mouse
    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you'd have to become a vegetarian.

    Replies: @Whiskey, @Achmed E. Newman, @Anonymous, @Lot, @ben tillman, @Alden, @Ibound1, @AnotherDad, @Frank the Prof

    Not if you were making $47/hr. at your own blue-collar job. A rising tide lifts all boats, speaking of boats.

    Inflation is an insidious hidden tax, that only men like Ron Paul try to teach people about. People don’t want to hear that complicated economic stuff though. See, it’d be lots harder for the employers to just keep cutting pay in actual dollars, even with all the cheap labor brought in, without people noticing. Instead, 10 years go by, and, even with your yuuuge 50 cent/hr raises each year, your money buys only 3/4 of what it did.

    I think most people just don’t have much of a memory for what prices were, especially on the smaller items. Additionally lots, of Americans are too proud to ask what something costs, if it’s not clear, and/or too proud to say “nope, keep it – I’ll look elsewhere”. They call that “being cheap”.

    • Replies: @27 year old
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Additionally lots, of Americans are too proud to ask what something costs, if it’s not clear, and/or too proud to say “nope, keep it – I’ll look elsewhere”. They call that “being cheap”.
     
    When you make 47 an hour and everyone else in town makes about the same-ish, then being cheap is bad form.

    The cultural memory of boomer Americans is that we’re rich people in a rich country, so we still have a lot of customs and habits based on this mindset. And of course capital is very happy with this as it makes people spend more.

    The impact of swallowing pride (or not) and accepting that you are poor, on a mass scale, is something that should be being studied in depth.

    I don’t mean accepting as in giving up, I mean just accepting the reality of ones current situation and acting accordingly. People mostly are not doing this and we should be studying the phenomenon.

    And also, we should be planning for what to do if a psychic sea change happens and everybody finally figures out how poor we are.

    Replies: @istevefan, @International Jew

  11. Anon[235] • Disclaimer says:

    I think that the assumption here is not “We need more immigrants” but “We need more illegal aliens.”

    Immigrants are people with immigrant visas or green cards. You have to pay them a decent wage. Depending on the state you might not be able to just fire them at a whim. And so on. Illegal aliens can be exploited in all kinds of ways that Immigrants or H1 or H2 visa holders cannot because they live in fear.

    Will all restaurants survive if they lose access to illegal aliens and have to depend on immigrants? Maybe not. But if they can only survice with illegal labor, good riddance.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Anon

    What I'm getting out of this is that you may agree with me on the stupidity of the Foodies.

    , @Twinkie
    @Anon


    I think that the assumption here is not “We need more immigrants” but “We need more illegal aliens.”
     
    You got that right. You don't see a stream of Microsoft Indians and Chinese real estate investors abandoning Bellevue-Redmond or Plano to settle in Iowa.

    No, what they want is the El Salvador-on-the-Prairie to erase that Denmark-on-the Prairie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo3mGCZdvB0

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Anonymous
    @Anon


    Will all restaurants survive if they lose access to illegal aliens and have to depend on immigrants? Maybe not.
     
    They could hire more teenagers(the original cheap labor). Teenage employment in the US has been trending down for a couple of decades.
    , @Alden
    @Anon

    I agree. Good riddance.

    Restaurants have long had the highest rate of failure of all businesses. There are millions more than there were 50 years ago. Drive down a city street past one or two mini malls every block. Every mini mall is mostly restaurants. If there are 8 stores 6 will be restaurants. Too many restaurants are chasing too few customers.

    I try never to eat in restaurants as I’m just giving money to the enemy, immigrants and their employers.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @stillCARealist

  12. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @anony-mouse
    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you'd have to become a vegetarian.

    Replies: @Whiskey, @Achmed E. Newman, @Anonymous, @Lot, @ben tillman, @Alden, @Ibound1, @AnotherDad, @Frank the Prof

    Not really, because the wage structure of the economy would have looked different. With working class jobs like meatpacking providing a higher floor for the economy’s wages, wages for middle and upper middle class jobs would be even higher.

  13. @anony-mouse
    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you'd have to become a vegetarian.

    Replies: @Whiskey, @Achmed E. Newman, @Anonymous, @Lot, @ben tillman, @Alden, @Ibound1, @AnotherDad, @Frank the Prof

    I considered vegetarianism, but then I learned from Ron Unz’s recent expose that drinking the blood of kidnapped children was part of my Jewish heritage.

  14. Art Cullen’s outlier politics in the Heartland just might have helped in him securing his Pulitzer.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    @Clifford Brown

    I don’t want those people. I want Iowa to remain Iowa.

  15. Speaking on this subject Mr. Sailer, aren’t we due for yet another “the crops are rotting in the fields/need more immigrants” rant from the mainstream media?

    • Replies: @Lot
    @anon

    For variety, how about in other countries?

    Crops Rotting in Fields Following Brexit

    https://qz.com/1127371/brexit-immigration-changes-have-uk-farmers-upset-over-rotting-agriculture-crops/

    Cornwall Farmers Appeal to Government as Migrant Labour Shortage Causes Crops to Rot in Fields

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cornwall-council-appeal-government-crops-rotting-migrant-labour-a8049391.html

    , @pyrrhus
    @anon

    And everyone knows that without H1-Bs, the electrons would be rotting in the computers....

  16. $47 an hour plus benefits to process pork would be ridiculous. Of course pork was presumably more expensive then than it is now (adjusting for inflation).

    It should have been obvious to anyone back them that the post-war gravy train would not last forever, open borders or not.

    • Replies: @Sgt. Joe Friday
    @AndrewR

    Yes, but why make things worse by upsetting the existing equilibrium?

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @AndrewR

    Who says? Do you know how much of the cost of the meat (per lb.) is from the processing? I don't, but with greater productivity, it is probably lower than ever, and would not be a big number even at $47/hr. Granted, with productivity improvements, especially the automation of today, there would not be as many people at the jobs.

    Replies: @anon

    , @WillBest
    @AndrewR

    $47/HR for meat packing is less ridiculous than $130k diversity recruiting officer

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Anon
    @AndrewR


    $47 an hour plus benefits to process pork would be ridiculous.
     
    How is it ridiculous? Pork processing is difficult work. Would you do it for $47/hour?

    Replies: @Alden

  17. @anon
    It's amazing how stupid and naive liberals continue to be about immigration. They think all humans are interchangeable, that a large number of Latin American, African, Middle Eastern or Southeast Asian immigrants will be just like a large number of WASP immigrants. Someone needs to send this moron to East L.A., New Mexico, or some of the Latino neighborhoods in NYC, Chicago, SF, and see how wonderful these places are to live. The bars on store windows should be a dead giveaway.

    Replies: @Polynikes, @istevefan, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous

    I think republicans are the ones being stupid and naïve. The Democrats know exactly what they’re doing: importing votes.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Polynikes


    I think republicans are the ones being stupid and naïve. The Democrats know exactly what they’re doing: importing votes.
     
    The Republicans are not stupid and naïve. They know what they're doing: importing cheap docile non-unionised labour to keep their billionaire donors happy.

    In a democracy you should never ascribe to stupidity anything that can be explained by treachery and malice.

    Replies: @Clyde

  18. Where I live, it seems like every single business I see has a help wanted or now hiring sign. Huge banners up by the highway. The radio ads are plastered on all channels with ZipRecruiter ads and ads for staffing companies. And many individual companies are also taking out radio ads specifically announcing they are looking for workers.

    Wages are not excellent or even fair but they are ticking up. If we can hold the line and prevent new waves of immigrants, wage increases will become noticeable. If we can actually manage cut immigration levels, things could be looking pretty good.

    There are a lot of boats in yards, but I also see a lot of them out on the water and being towed to/from. And campers are omnipresent. Credit I think explains this. Few people have any cash to speak of but making a monthly payment forever is pretty doable even for low skill people.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @27 year old


    Credit I think explains this. Few people have any cash to speak of but making a monthly payment forever is pretty doable even for low skill people.
     
    Getting into debt that you can never ever escape is always a sound move. What could possibly go wrong? You just have to make sure you never grow old or get sick or have a family member get sick and that you have a job that is absolutely secure for life. It's too easy.

    Replies: @MarkinLA

    , @Anonymous
    @27 year old

    Unemployment is indeed preposterously low, particularly if we dismiss the disaffected (those who gave up looking for work and/or are functionally unemployable). The economy is going gangbusters for the most part. Now who can tell me what comes next?

  19. @Achmed E. Newman
    @anony-mouse

    Not if you were making $47/hr. at your own blue-collar job. A rising tide lifts all boats, speaking of boats.

    Inflation is an insidious hidden tax, that only men like Ron Paul try to teach people about. People don't want to hear that complicated economic stuff though. See, it'd be lots harder for the employers to just keep cutting pay in actual dollars, even with all the cheap labor brought in, without people noticing. Instead, 10 years go by, and, even with your yuuuge 50 cent/hr raises each year, your money buys only 3/4 of what it did.

    I think most people just don't have much of a memory for what prices were, especially on the smaller items. Additionally lots, of Americans are too proud to ask what something costs, if it's not clear, and/or too proud to say "nope, keep it - I'll look elsewhere". They call that "being cheap".

    Replies: @27 year old

    Additionally lots, of Americans are too proud to ask what something costs, if it’s not clear, and/or too proud to say “nope, keep it – I’ll look elsewhere”. They call that “being cheap”.

    When you make 47 an hour and everyone else in town makes about the same-ish, then being cheap is bad form.

    The cultural memory of boomer Americans is that we’re rich people in a rich country, so we still have a lot of customs and habits based on this mindset. And of course capital is very happy with this as it makes people spend more.

    The impact of swallowing pride (or not) and accepting that you are poor, on a mass scale, is something that should be being studied in depth.

    I don’t mean accepting as in giving up, I mean just accepting the reality of ones current situation and acting accordingly. People mostly are not doing this and we should be studying the phenomenon.

    And also, we should be planning for what to do if a psychic sea change happens and everybody finally figures out how poor we are.

    • Replies: @istevefan
    @27 year old


    The cultural memory of boomer Americans is that we’re rich people in a rich country, so we still have a lot of customs and habits based on this mindset.
     
    Debt gives the illusion of wealth. Many with the toys and accoutrements of wealth are deeply in debt. So long as they can make minimum payments, the illusion continues.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @International Jew
    @27 year old


    The impact of swallowing pride (or not) and accepting that you are poor, on a mass scale, is something that should be being studied in depth.
     
    Study Argentina.
  20. istevefan says:
    @anon
    It's amazing how stupid and naive liberals continue to be about immigration. They think all humans are interchangeable, that a large number of Latin American, African, Middle Eastern or Southeast Asian immigrants will be just like a large number of WASP immigrants. Someone needs to send this moron to East L.A., New Mexico, or some of the Latino neighborhoods in NYC, Chicago, SF, and see how wonderful these places are to live. The bars on store windows should be a dead giveaway.

    Replies: @Polynikes, @istevefan, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous

    I don’t think they are stupid. They know immigrants will help them at the ballot box, and they know demographic and cultural change greatly upsets their arch enemy, i.e. us.

    Recall the memo from someone in Tony Blair’s cabinet that stated Labour wanted to use immigration to ‘rub the right’s nose in diversity’.

  21. @AndrewR
    $47 an hour plus benefits to process pork would be ridiculous. Of course pork was presumably more expensive then than it is now (adjusting for inflation).

    It should have been obvious to anyone back them that the post-war gravy train would not last forever, open borders or not.

    Replies: @Sgt. Joe Friday, @Achmed E. Newman, @WillBest, @Anon

    Yes, but why make things worse by upsetting the existing equilibrium?

  22. Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.

    There are lots of active boats, albeit small ones, in Minnesota and Wisconsin, where lake fishing is religion. And they’re only good about eight months out of the year. The rest of the time, you sit in a shack on the ice, with TV and beer.

  23. istevefan says:
    @27 year old
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Additionally lots, of Americans are too proud to ask what something costs, if it’s not clear, and/or too proud to say “nope, keep it – I’ll look elsewhere”. They call that “being cheap”.
     
    When you make 47 an hour and everyone else in town makes about the same-ish, then being cheap is bad form.

    The cultural memory of boomer Americans is that we’re rich people in a rich country, so we still have a lot of customs and habits based on this mindset. And of course capital is very happy with this as it makes people spend more.

    The impact of swallowing pride (or not) and accepting that you are poor, on a mass scale, is something that should be being studied in depth.

    I don’t mean accepting as in giving up, I mean just accepting the reality of ones current situation and acting accordingly. People mostly are not doing this and we should be studying the phenomenon.

    And also, we should be planning for what to do if a psychic sea change happens and everybody finally figures out how poor we are.

    Replies: @istevefan, @International Jew

    The cultural memory of boomer Americans is that we’re rich people in a rich country, so we still have a lot of customs and habits based on this mindset.

    Debt gives the illusion of wealth. Many with the toys and accoutrements of wealth are deeply in debt. So long as they can make minimum payments, the illusion continues.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @istevefan

    Yes, that's about what I was going to reply to 27 y/o with. BTW, I agree with you (more than usual, haha) on your comment, 27 y/o.

    Americans are trying to keep their standard of living even as wages have not kept up with inflation. They've been borrowing to make up the difference. 7! - year car loans, student loans, credit cards, HELOCS (uh-oh!), etc. What can't go on, won't go on.

    There is not much encouragement for saving, as real interest rates are in the negative. You get, what, 1 % on a long-term CD, while inflation is not the 1-2% that the US BLS says. I'd say 4-5%. That's why people put all the extra money, after those minimum payments on the loans, into their house. It's the only appreciating savings vehicle ... until it isn't. The Chinese do the same, as they've got inflation due to their peg of the Yuan to the Dollar.

    Replies: @MBlanc46

  24. @Alec Leamas

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can’t afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too – I have no idea.
     
    It was then that the fox realized that even if he had been able to reach the grapes, they were not ripe after all, and would probably have been far too sour to enjoy.

    Replies: @Anon

    He has a point. How many guys had a sweet gaming setup in the 70’s?

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Anon

    "How many guys had a sweet gaming setup in the 70′s?"

    Plenty.

    I gather you are unfamiliar with upper middle class, upper midwest, 1970s romperroom basements. They made a popular sitcom set in one!

    They had a pinball machine, pool table, trampoline, and possibly a fussball table or pong pong table. If we are talking late 70s maybe even an Atari or Pong console. The tasteful wood paneling on Ataris nicely matched the basement too.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Atari-2600-Wood-4Sw-Set.jpg/640px-Atari-2600-Wood-4Sw-Set.jpg

  25. Anon[393] • Disclaimer says:

    We were just discussing in the comments why in large parts of the country outside the Southeast, it seems like you don’t see boats being towed down the highway today as often as you did a generation ago. Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.

    I swear I saw something on Reason a few years ago about how people are buying more boats and jet-skis etc these days, so actually things are better than ever.

    So now I don’t know what to believe.

  26. @Jack D

    Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.
     
    Actual statistics would be nicer than Lagertha's anecdotes, charming as they are.

    Also, I take your large point (i.e. the meat packer in question (and many like him although again some sort of educated estimate of how may people are in that boat and how much immigration has affected wages would have been nice) now makes 70% less than he used to, thanks to all of the amigos now working in the plant) , but hobbies like boating, golf, tennis, etc. go in and out of fashion.

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can't afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too - I have no idea.

    Replies: @Lot, @Moral Stone, @Twinkie, @Another Canadian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Cloudbuster, @AnotherDad, @Jim bob Lassiter, @MEH 0910

    I know some guys in their 30s who are into cars, but as a hobby it’s more limited and expensive. You just can’t work on modern production cars in your garage the way you can older ones, which ups the entry price.

    As for boats, I looked up some stats on sailing and it’s nowhere near its peak during the baby boomer young adult years. Part of this is demographics, part of it is price, part is better entertainment options. But certainly part of it is a fad, and that part is cyclical. It’s trendy again now to say “let’s go sailing,” because it sets you apart from (and by the fuzzy logic of social status, above) the “let’s go watch netflix” crowd.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Moral Stone

    I own a sailboat. Many marinas and boat clubs on the East Coast are quite full of boats, some with waiting lists. The better class the marina or boat club, the more sailboats. The boat sales market is much bigger for power boats, but that's because many folks 1) haven't bothered to learn how to sail; 2) are in a hurry to get to fishing spots; 3) prefer listening to the whine of a high-powered motor or three over nature sounds or conversation; 4) enjoying the pounding of a planing boat over the waves; and most importantly, 5) love creating large wakes that rock everyone else's boat and disrupt their enjoyment on the water.
    You can hear them yelling and cussing each other out over their wakes and getting cut off on Ch. 16.
    Being a power boater, with some exceptions (older folks with diesel tugs, Grand Banks-type cabin cruisers etc.), is essentially an a-hole hobby.
    Marc Rubio is a good example - $80K for a power fishing boat with no cabin or head, but lots of HP. That thing burns a few grand in gas per weekend.
    Having a sailboat means you have virtually unlimited range to get away from the riff-raff, in peace.

    Replies: @Disordered

  27. @istevefan
    @27 year old


    The cultural memory of boomer Americans is that we’re rich people in a rich country, so we still have a lot of customs and habits based on this mindset.
     
    Debt gives the illusion of wealth. Many with the toys and accoutrements of wealth are deeply in debt. So long as they can make minimum payments, the illusion continues.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Yes, that’s about what I was going to reply to 27 y/o with. BTW, I agree with you (more than usual, haha) on your comment, 27 y/o.

    Americans are trying to keep their standard of living even as wages have not kept up with inflation. They’ve been borrowing to make up the difference. 7! – year car loans, student loans, credit cards, HELOCS (uh-oh!), etc. What can’t go on, won’t go on.

    There is not much encouragement for saving, as real interest rates are in the negative. You get, what, 1 % on a long-term CD, while inflation is not the 1-2% that the US BLS says. I’d say 4-5%. That’s why people put all the extra money, after those minimum payments on the loans, into their house. It’s the only appreciating savings vehicle … until it isn’t. The Chinese do the same, as they’ve got inflation due to their peg of the Yuan to the Dollar.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Why save when savers are punished? Well, to stay out of debt, of course, but a lot of folks don’t see it that way.

  28. @AndrewR
    $47 an hour plus benefits to process pork would be ridiculous. Of course pork was presumably more expensive then than it is now (adjusting for inflation).

    It should have been obvious to anyone back them that the post-war gravy train would not last forever, open borders or not.

    Replies: @Sgt. Joe Friday, @Achmed E. Newman, @WillBest, @Anon

    Who says? Do you know how much of the cost of the meat (per lb.) is from the processing? I don’t, but with greater productivity, it is probably lower than ever, and would not be a big number even at $47/hr. Granted, with productivity improvements, especially the automation of today, there would not be as many people at the jobs.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Achmed E. Newman

    According to https://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/more.php?id=2005 the average labor cost of fruits and veg is 10 percent of retail prices. So doubling or tripling worker pay would have not insubstantial 10 to 20 inflation in food prices, but in the scheme of things only amounts to a hundred or so bucks per consumer unit per year...

  29. @Anon
    I think that the assumption here is not "We need more immigrants" but "We need more illegal aliens."

    Immigrants are people with immigrant visas or green cards. You have to pay them a decent wage. Depending on the state you might not be able to just fire them at a whim. And so on. Illegal aliens can be exploited in all kinds of ways that Immigrants or H1 or H2 visa holders cannot because they live in fear.

    Will all restaurants survive if they lose access to illegal aliens and have to depend on immigrants? Maybe not. But if they can only survice with illegal labor, good riddance.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Twinkie, @Anonymous, @Alden

    What I’m getting out of this is that you may agree with me on the stupidity of the Foodies.

  30. @AndrewR
    $47 an hour plus benefits to process pork would be ridiculous. Of course pork was presumably more expensive then than it is now (adjusting for inflation).

    It should have been obvious to anyone back them that the post-war gravy train would not last forever, open borders or not.

    Replies: @Sgt. Joe Friday, @Achmed E. Newman, @WillBest, @Anon

    $47/HR for meat packing is less ridiculous than $130k diversity recruiting officer

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob, Corn, MBlanc46, Clyde
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @WillBest

    How about $5,800/hr for the CEO of Tyson (chicken)?

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-22/tyson-ceo-to-exit-with-24-million-5-800-an-hour-advisory-job

    How many thousands of Tyson line workers could have gotten significant raises with his $24,000,000 pay package?

  31. @anon
    Speaking on this subject Mr. Sailer, aren't we due for yet another "the crops are rotting in the fields/need more immigrants" rant from the mainstream media?

    Replies: @Lot, @pyrrhus

    For variety, how about in other countries?

    Crops Rotting in Fields Following Brexit

    https://qz.com/1127371/brexit-immigration-changes-have-uk-farmers-upset-over-rotting-agriculture-crops/

    Cornwall Farmers Appeal to Government as Migrant Labour Shortage Causes Crops to Rot in Fields

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cornwall-council-appeal-government-crops-rotting-migrant-labour-a8049391.html

  32. Growing up I had to mow the lawn. At least I had a power mower ( not self propelled) and an ‘edger’ a horrible device composed of a broom type handle with a wheel with triangular metal blades on one side to cut grass away from the sidewalk and driveway. I provided the power to operate it. In the fall I had a ‘rake’ to gather up the leaves but, at least back then, you could dispose of them by burning!

    Labor was cheap at least for my father. Since those days when fathers could slough off lawn mowing and other yard work on their children there has had a revolution in mechanical equipment that makes it faster and easier to do. We have motorized ‘weed eaters’ that do what the ‘edger’ once did. Zero turn riding mowers that can cut a couple of acres of grass faster than I could do a modest front yard. Leaf blowers, power shrub trimmers and low paid mestizos to operate the gear. It really doesn’t make much sense to do your own ‘landscape work’ anymore and invest in all this gear when you can hire a landscape company to do it for you.

    Now if, instead of low paid mestizos, landscapers had to pay American workers $40 or $50 per hour you might see a lot more people investing a few thousand dollars in lawn tractors so they could, once again, do it themselves but more quickly and easily than when I was growing up.

    The meat packing industry too might decide investing in machinery made more sense than hiring hundreds of people to carve up cattle, pigs or chickens. That’s the thing about high wages. It encourages innovation and using machines to increase productivity. Of course you need ‘people’ to build and service the machines but they have to have greater skills than the people the machines replace.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @unit472

    I worked at a Weed Eater company in 1979.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    , @Twinkie
    @unit472


    Now if, instead of low paid mestizos, landscapers had to pay American workers $40 or $50 per hour you might see a lot more people investing a few thousand dollars in lawn tractors so they could, once again, do it themselves but more quickly and easily than when I was growing up.
     
    Or get a horse! If too much, a goat! They'll eat through your yard fast.

    Replies: @anon

    , @Anonymous
    @unit472

    Gardeners where I live are getting $40 an hour--I've paid them this. And yes, I mean Latino gardeners who don't speak much English. I'm sure some make less but it's quite possible that some make more.

    Incidentally, I don't live in one of the famously-expensive metropolises.

    Replies: @Bill, @JMcG

    , @prusmc
    @unit472

    I believe the turning point was in 1990 or 1991 after a long and bitter strike at a Hormel pork processing plant in Minnesota. The company vanquished the Union and the wage structure and worker make up went down and away. BTW chicken slaughter is on the way to being very low labor as robots are being phased in. Pork is next because there is not a great difference in Caracas size. Beef processing automation is hampered by lack of size standardized raw material.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  33. @anon
    It's amazing how stupid and naive liberals continue to be about immigration. They think all humans are interchangeable, that a large number of Latin American, African, Middle Eastern or Southeast Asian immigrants will be just like a large number of WASP immigrants. Someone needs to send this moron to East L.A., New Mexico, or some of the Latino neighborhoods in NYC, Chicago, SF, and see how wonderful these places are to live. The bars on store windows should be a dead giveaway.

    Replies: @Polynikes, @istevefan, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous

    It’s amazing how stupid and naive liberals continue to be about immigration.

    They’re not stupid, they’re not naive, and they’re not liberal.

    They’re cynical, conniving bastards. And increasingly authoritarian ones, to boot.

  34. Lot says:
    @Anon
    @Alec Leamas

    He has a point. How many guys had a sweet gaming setup in the 70's?

    Replies: @Lot

    “How many guys had a sweet gaming setup in the 70′s?”

    Plenty.

    I gather you are unfamiliar with upper middle class, upper midwest, 1970s romperroom basements. They made a popular sitcom set in one!

    They had a pinball machine, pool table, trampoline, and possibly a fussball table or pong pong table. If we are talking late 70s maybe even an Atari or Pong console. The tasteful wood paneling on Ataris nicely matched the basement too.

  35. @AndrewR
    $47 an hour plus benefits to process pork would be ridiculous. Of course pork was presumably more expensive then than it is now (adjusting for inflation).

    It should have been obvious to anyone back them that the post-war gravy train would not last forever, open borders or not.

    Replies: @Sgt. Joe Friday, @Achmed E. Newman, @WillBest, @Anon

    $47 an hour plus benefits to process pork would be ridiculous.

    How is it ridiculous? Pork processing is difficult work. Would you do it for $47/hour?

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Anon

    Most White collar workers even minimum wage retail clerks feel soooo superior to men who do physical labor and deny that those jobs require a lot of training and are highly skilled.

  36. @unit472
    Growing up I had to mow the lawn. At least I had a power mower ( not self propelled) and an 'edger' a horrible device composed of a broom type handle with a wheel with triangular metal blades on one side to cut grass away from the sidewalk and driveway. I provided the power to operate it. In the fall I had a 'rake' to gather up the leaves but, at least back then, you could dispose of them by burning!

    Labor was cheap at least for my father. Since those days when fathers could slough off lawn mowing and other yard work on their children there has had a revolution in mechanical equipment that makes it faster and easier to do. We have motorized 'weed eaters' that do what the 'edger' once did. Zero turn riding mowers that can cut a couple of acres of grass faster than I could do a modest front yard. Leaf blowers, power shrub trimmers and low paid mestizos to operate the gear. It really doesn't make much sense to do your own 'landscape work' anymore and invest in all this gear when you can hire a landscape company to do it for you.

    Now if, instead of low paid mestizos, landscapers had to pay American workers $40 or $50 per hour you might see a lot more people investing a few thousand dollars in lawn tractors so they could, once again, do it themselves but more quickly and easily than when I was growing up.

    The meat packing industry too might decide investing in machinery made more sense than hiring hundreds of people to carve up cattle, pigs or chickens. That's the thing about high wages. It encourages innovation and using machines to increase productivity. Of course you need 'people' to build and service the machines but they have to have greater skills than the people the machines replace.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Twinkie, @Anonymous, @prusmc

    I worked at a Weed Eater company in 1979.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Steve Sailer

    literally, "Weed Eater?" We are so old and poisoned. We should have died from our summer jobs in the 70's for God's sake, by now !!! hahhaaaa. My kids just learned that I have a very detailed will. My parents always liked spoofing us with "what will we leave you: nothing...or?" People who grew up after the depravity of WW2, knew just how much is at stake. Nothing is for granted. Ok, ok, ok,. they never dissed their descendants who were true-blue.

    Replies: @Jack D

  37. @Jack D

    Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.
     
    Actual statistics would be nicer than Lagertha's anecdotes, charming as they are.

    Also, I take your large point (i.e. the meat packer in question (and many like him although again some sort of educated estimate of how may people are in that boat and how much immigration has affected wages would have been nice) now makes 70% less than he used to, thanks to all of the amigos now working in the plant) , but hobbies like boating, golf, tennis, etc. go in and out of fashion.

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can't afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too - I have no idea.

    Replies: @Lot, @Moral Stone, @Twinkie, @Another Canadian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Cloudbuster, @AnotherDad, @Jim bob Lassiter, @MEH 0910

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can’t afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular.

    To be fair, with vintage cars, you could pretty much open the hood, step inside and work on the mechanical parts yourself.

    Today, you plug in a device and it tells you what part needs to be replaced whole. Cars have dozens of computers now.

    My wife’s family owns quite a bit of land in the Midwest, and one bit of the portfolio of property is leased to a lake marina. From what I heard from the business operator there, the clientele for even a lake marina has become quite upscale in the recent years. Apparently, there were more middle and lower-middle class customers with small boats in the past; now it’s more upscale watercraft with a decidedly upper middle class clientele. I don’t know how much of this is true, but that’s what I heard.

  38. @anony-mouse
    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you'd have to become a vegetarian.

    Replies: @Whiskey, @Achmed E. Newman, @Anonymous, @Lot, @ben tillman, @Alden, @Ibound1, @AnotherDad, @Frank the Prof

    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you’d have to become a vegetarian.

    Are you serious? He was making that much in 1980, and we didn’t have to become vegetarians then.

  39. @Lot
    @Jack D

    There isn't as much to be into with cars now. You can't mod them much, and a basic $5000 used car can go 120 mph, if you dare.

    There isn't much to restore either. Classic cars from the 80s and 90s are ugly and slow.

    When I was 11 to 15 my friends often had sports car posters on their walls and as their PC background picture. I doubt this is mainstream and common now.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Reg Cæsar

    There isn’t much to restore either. Classic cars from the 80s and 90s are ugly and slow.

    Vintage muscle cars from the 60’s and 70’s are beautiful and powerful (and have that street-vibrating noise). But, they can’t maneuver for life and are pretty dangerous (no modern safety equipment).

  40. @unit472
    Growing up I had to mow the lawn. At least I had a power mower ( not self propelled) and an 'edger' a horrible device composed of a broom type handle with a wheel with triangular metal blades on one side to cut grass away from the sidewalk and driveway. I provided the power to operate it. In the fall I had a 'rake' to gather up the leaves but, at least back then, you could dispose of them by burning!

    Labor was cheap at least for my father. Since those days when fathers could slough off lawn mowing and other yard work on their children there has had a revolution in mechanical equipment that makes it faster and easier to do. We have motorized 'weed eaters' that do what the 'edger' once did. Zero turn riding mowers that can cut a couple of acres of grass faster than I could do a modest front yard. Leaf blowers, power shrub trimmers and low paid mestizos to operate the gear. It really doesn't make much sense to do your own 'landscape work' anymore and invest in all this gear when you can hire a landscape company to do it for you.

    Now if, instead of low paid mestizos, landscapers had to pay American workers $40 or $50 per hour you might see a lot more people investing a few thousand dollars in lawn tractors so they could, once again, do it themselves but more quickly and easily than when I was growing up.

    The meat packing industry too might decide investing in machinery made more sense than hiring hundreds of people to carve up cattle, pigs or chickens. That's the thing about high wages. It encourages innovation and using machines to increase productivity. Of course you need 'people' to build and service the machines but they have to have greater skills than the people the machines replace.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Twinkie, @Anonymous, @prusmc

    Now if, instead of low paid mestizos, landscapers had to pay American workers $40 or $50 per hour you might see a lot more people investing a few thousand dollars in lawn tractors so they could, once again, do it themselves but more quickly and easily than when I was growing up.

    Or get a horse! If too much, a goat! They’ll eat through your yard fast.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Twinkie

    Or even better, make your kids do it just like you did. It builds more character than posting on Twitter...

  41. @anon

    Had his wages kept up with inflation, he would be earning about $47 an hour.
     
    $47 an hour in a midwest Iowa town is great wages for a physical labor job. This is a shocking reminder of what decent wages looked like, what the middle class looked like, and just how far down we've come. Yes the work was hard - so what? The grandsons of these workers are either heroin addicts or public college students getting degrees they won't use when they get a job bagging groceries at the organic food coop.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @ScarletNumber

    Yes the work was hard – so what? The grandsons of these workers are either heroin addicts or public college students getting degrees they won’t use when they get a job bagging groceries at the organic food coop.

    Point taken. Though, to be fair to Iowans, I should note that there is quite a bit of brain drain from Iowa (e.g. there is a huge bunch of them working for Boeing in the Pacific Northwest out of U. of Iowa and Iowa State). So it’s a bit unfair to say that their children are bagging groceries. Those are the guys who couldn’t make it out of the state (or were unwilling to chase high-paying jobs elsewhere).

  42. @Anon
    I think that the assumption here is not "We need more immigrants" but "We need more illegal aliens."

    Immigrants are people with immigrant visas or green cards. You have to pay them a decent wage. Depending on the state you might not be able to just fire them at a whim. And so on. Illegal aliens can be exploited in all kinds of ways that Immigrants or H1 or H2 visa holders cannot because they live in fear.

    Will all restaurants survive if they lose access to illegal aliens and have to depend on immigrants? Maybe not. But if they can only survice with illegal labor, good riddance.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Twinkie, @Anonymous, @Alden

    I think that the assumption here is not “We need more immigrants” but “We need more illegal aliens.”

    You got that right. You don’t see a stream of Microsoft Indians and Chinese real estate investors abandoning Bellevue-Redmond or Plano to settle in Iowa.

    No, what they want is the El Salvador-on-the-Prairie to erase that Denmark-on-the Prairie:

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Twinkie

    There’s place you can live with no Salvadorians and be surrounded by your co-ethnics . . .

    안녕히 계세요, 문을 내놓을 때 엉덩이를 치지 마세요

    Replies: @Twinkie

  43. @Polynikes
    @anon

    I think republicans are the ones being stupid and naïve. The Democrats know exactly what they're doing: importing votes.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    I think republicans are the ones being stupid and naïve. The Democrats know exactly what they’re doing: importing votes.

    The Republicans are not stupid and naïve. They know what they’re doing: importing cheap docile non-unionised labour to keep their billionaire donors happy.

    In a democracy you should never ascribe to stupidity anything that can be explained by treachery and malice.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Clyde
    @dfordoom


    In a democracy you should never ascribe to stupidity anything that can be explained by treachery and malice.
     
    Agree but at least the treachery and malice of the past was not nation and culture busting via bringing in multitudes of poor incompatible foreigners. I like your little saying and how it reverses the usual. And you are correct for the way our alleged Democracy works these days. Just look at the treachery and malice behind the attempted lynching of Trump and those who have gotten close to him.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  44. @27 year old
    Where I live, it seems like every single business I see has a help wanted or now hiring sign. Huge banners up by the highway. The radio ads are plastered on all channels with ZipRecruiter ads and ads for staffing companies. And many individual companies are also taking out radio ads specifically announcing they are looking for workers.

    Wages are not excellent or even fair but they are ticking up. If we can hold the line and prevent new waves of immigrants, wage increases will become noticeable. If we can actually manage cut immigration levels, things could be looking pretty good.

    There are a lot of boats in yards, but I also see a lot of them out on the water and being towed to/from. And campers are omnipresent. Credit I think explains this. Few people have any cash to speak of but making a monthly payment forever is pretty doable even for low skill people.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Anonymous

    Credit I think explains this. Few people have any cash to speak of but making a monthly payment forever is pretty doable even for low skill people.

    Getting into debt that you can never ever escape is always a sound move. What could possibly go wrong? You just have to make sure you never grow old or get sick or have a family member get sick and that you have a job that is absolutely secure for life. It’s too easy.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @dfordoom

    Well unless they can force you to sell your house to pay it off, you have lost nothing if you can no longer service the debt. If they can force a sale of the house, as long as your mortgage is equal to what the house is worth, you still haven't lost anything.

    There are three groups of people in this country living large compared to what they earn - those on welfare, the working poor qualifying for welfare, and the super rich. All of these people get far more out of the system than they put in.

  45. Hog bellies rotting in slaughterhouses?

    What about unproduced screenplays rotting on MacBook hard drives?

    Who’s a more overpaid and overhyped workforce ripe for replacement with hungry foreign cheap labor than this gang?

    Around here it’s probably pretty controversial welcoming the wretched refuse from the world’s $#itholes, but this particular proud crowd has been so eager to replace ordinary deplorable American citizens with Guatemalans, Somalis, Afghans, etc. Perhaps it’s better we replace Hollywood stars with hungry motivated newcomers before they get us? An additional bonus, we solve the #OscarsSoWhite dilemma with a single vibrant stroke. Furthermore producers might appreciate reducing their costs & risks by exploiting cheaper talent.

    If they envision America’s future to be “City of God,” probably ought to get used to casting films with fresh faces like “City of God” had.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Thin-Skinned Masta-Beta

    In America the actors trades critters drivers etc are protected by the state workplace laws and their unions.

    But in Asia 18 hour work days are the norm in making movies. Maybe move the industry to China. The actors writers and directors can start an environmental animal rights movement ha ha ha

  46. Anonymous[218] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    I think that the assumption here is not "We need more immigrants" but "We need more illegal aliens."

    Immigrants are people with immigrant visas or green cards. You have to pay them a decent wage. Depending on the state you might not be able to just fire them at a whim. And so on. Illegal aliens can be exploited in all kinds of ways that Immigrants or H1 or H2 visa holders cannot because they live in fear.

    Will all restaurants survive if they lose access to illegal aliens and have to depend on immigrants? Maybe not. But if they can only survice with illegal labor, good riddance.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Twinkie, @Anonymous, @Alden

    Will all restaurants survive if they lose access to illegal aliens and have to depend on immigrants? Maybe not.

    They could hire more teenagers(the original cheap labor). Teenage employment in the US has been trending down for a couple of decades.

  47. Anonymous[218] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    It's amazing how stupid and naive liberals continue to be about immigration. They think all humans are interchangeable, that a large number of Latin American, African, Middle Eastern or Southeast Asian immigrants will be just like a large number of WASP immigrants. Someone needs to send this moron to East L.A., New Mexico, or some of the Latino neighborhoods in NYC, Chicago, SF, and see how wonderful these places are to live. The bars on store windows should be a dead giveaway.

    Replies: @Polynikes, @istevefan, @Reg Cæsar, @Anonymous

    They think all humans are interchangeable

    This seems to be a commonly held belief among people who rule. The communists of old simply viewed human beings as cogs in a giant machine. So do the GDP uber alles crowd, regardless of whether they call themselves liberal or conservative. In the former it was the Central Committee calling the shots with five-year plans, in the latter it’s the invisible hand. Either way, it’s incredibly dehumanizing.

    Of course, thus far we’ve been able to avoid the massive body counts of the former, but I remain pessimistic. Our overlords have basically bet the farm on the idea that we can keep producing enough new baubles every year to keep the masses entertained and distracted and that the music will never really stop. Maybe it never will, but if it does, we’ll be left with a massive number of different groups to fight one another for resources. It’s easy to ignore differences when you’re not fighting each other for your next meal.

    Ethnic and racial identities are stubborn things that are hard to eradicate, and they have an annoying habit of becoming more important when the old order collapses.

  48. “Had his wages kept up with inflation, he would be earning about $47 an hour.”

    According to inflation calculator, $16 an hr back in 1980 would come to exactly $51.43 in 2018. https://www.saving.org/inflation/inflation.php?amount=16

    $51.43 an hr. does sound like a lot, doesn’t it? I mean, what kind of work today can one earn over 50 bucks per hr? That’s like a white collar professional wage, right?

    There’s no way the billionaire donors/conagra executives want to pay native born Americans that kind of inflation-adjusted hourly wage when they can pay the exact same wage they paid nearly forty years ago.

    Wonder whatever happened to the meat packing unions? Seems like now’s the time the native born workers would need them to fight for their interests.

    Until then, might as well just let the pork rot in the slaughterhouse.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    $51.43 an hr. does sound like a lot, doesn’t it? I mean, what kind of work today can one earn over 50 bucks per hr? That’s like a white collar professional wage, right?
     
    My H/VAC tech and car mechanic get paid more than $50 per hour.

    Replies: @Bill, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @MBlanc46
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I thought of a reply to your last statement, but prudence leads me to keep it to myself. Who knows what law enforcement agencies might be monitoring iSteve?

  49. @27 year old
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Additionally lots, of Americans are too proud to ask what something costs, if it’s not clear, and/or too proud to say “nope, keep it – I’ll look elsewhere”. They call that “being cheap”.
     
    When you make 47 an hour and everyone else in town makes about the same-ish, then being cheap is bad form.

    The cultural memory of boomer Americans is that we’re rich people in a rich country, so we still have a lot of customs and habits based on this mindset. And of course capital is very happy with this as it makes people spend more.

    The impact of swallowing pride (or not) and accepting that you are poor, on a mass scale, is something that should be being studied in depth.

    I don’t mean accepting as in giving up, I mean just accepting the reality of ones current situation and acting accordingly. People mostly are not doing this and we should be studying the phenomenon.

    And also, we should be planning for what to do if a psychic sea change happens and everybody finally figures out how poor we are.

    Replies: @istevefan, @International Jew

    The impact of swallowing pride (or not) and accepting that you are poor, on a mass scale, is something that should be being studied in depth.

    Study Argentina.

  50. @anony-mouse
    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you'd have to become a vegetarian.

    Replies: @Whiskey, @Achmed E. Newman, @Anonymous, @Lot, @ben tillman, @Alden, @Ibound1, @AnotherDad, @Frank the Prof

    Ah yes, the old I’m the only person who deserves a decent wage syndrome.

    He’s lucky he still has a job. A common trick was to close the plant down for remodeling and installing new equipment. A year later the plant would be re opened with a brand new all illegal Hispanic work force

    And a federally Ford Tides foundation funded brand new Legal Services for Hispanics office would open up at the same time and start suing the school district for bi lingual services, county for more welfare and landlords who don’t want 20 people living in a small 3 bedroom house.

    Vdare.com has lots of stories about this kind of thing in the Midwest.

  51. @Anon
    I think that the assumption here is not "We need more immigrants" but "We need more illegal aliens."

    Immigrants are people with immigrant visas or green cards. You have to pay them a decent wage. Depending on the state you might not be able to just fire them at a whim. And so on. Illegal aliens can be exploited in all kinds of ways that Immigrants or H1 or H2 visa holders cannot because they live in fear.

    Will all restaurants survive if they lose access to illegal aliens and have to depend on immigrants? Maybe not. But if they can only survice with illegal labor, good riddance.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Twinkie, @Anonymous, @Alden

    I agree. Good riddance.

    Restaurants have long had the highest rate of failure of all businesses. There are millions more than there were 50 years ago. Drive down a city street past one or two mini malls every block. Every mini mall is mostly restaurants. If there are 8 stores 6 will be restaurants. Too many restaurants are chasing too few customers.

    I try never to eat in restaurants as I’m just giving money to the enemy, immigrants and their employers.

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    @Alden

    After having moved back to the U.S. after about 6 years in Europe, I've also noticed to super-abundance of restaurants here. I rarely eat at them, so I can't opine about the quality of food or service, but the architecture and advertising are garish. I suspect that we would be better off if at least half of them closed and people went back to cooking and eating at home.

    , @stillCARealist
    @Alden

    I rarely eat in restaurants myself, but not because of immigrants. Restaurants are fattening, expensive, and often the food isn't that great.

    If you duplicate a pricey meal at home, with fine wine and a choice cut of meat, you can drink as much as you want, save tons of money, and avoid that bloated feeling that comes from cleaning a plate you paid too much for. Trifecta.

    Unless you're traveling, there's just no reason to be eating out. Even meeting clients can take place just fine in an office with a good coffee machine (that's what my well-remunerated, business-man husband does).

    Replies: @Jack D, @slumber_j, @AnotherDad

  52. @Thin-Skinned Masta-Beta
    Hog bellies rotting in slaughterhouses?

    What about unproduced screenplays rotting on MacBook hard drives?

    Who's a more overpaid and overhyped workforce ripe for replacement with hungry foreign cheap labor than this gang?

    https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02841/selfie_2841027b.jpg

    Around here it's probably pretty controversial welcoming the wretched refuse from the world's $#itholes, but this particular proud crowd has been so eager to replace ordinary deplorable American citizens with Guatemalans, Somalis, Afghans, etc. Perhaps it's better we replace Hollywood stars with hungry motivated newcomers before they get us? An additional bonus, we solve the #OscarsSoWhite dilemma with a single vibrant stroke. Furthermore producers might appreciate reducing their costs & risks by exploiting cheaper talent.

    If they envision America's future to be "City of God," probably ought to get used to casting films with fresh faces like "City of God" had.

    https://www.slantmagazine.com/assets/features/19295/interviews_fernandomeirelles__article-hero-1130x430.jpg

    https://soliloqueue.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/muse.gif

    Replies: @Alden

    In America the actors trades critters drivers etc are protected by the state workplace laws and their unions.

    But in Asia 18 hour work days are the norm in making movies. Maybe move the industry to China. The actors writers and directors can start an environmental animal rights movement ha ha ha

  53. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Had his wages kept up with inflation, he would be earning about $47 an hour."

    According to inflation calculator, $16 an hr back in 1980 would come to exactly $51.43 in 2018. https://www.saving.org/inflation/inflation.php?amount=16

    $51.43 an hr. does sound like a lot, doesn't it? I mean, what kind of work today can one earn over 50 bucks per hr? That's like a white collar professional wage, right?

    There's no way the billionaire donors/conagra executives want to pay native born Americans that kind of inflation-adjusted hourly wage when they can pay the exact same wage they paid nearly forty years ago.

    Wonder whatever happened to the meat packing unions? Seems like now's the time the native born workers would need them to fight for their interests.

    Until then, might as well just let the pork rot in the slaughterhouse.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @MBlanc46

    $51.43 an hr. does sound like a lot, doesn’t it? I mean, what kind of work today can one earn over 50 bucks per hr? That’s like a white collar professional wage, right?

    My H/VAC tech and car mechanic get paid more than $50 per hour.

    • Replies: @Bill
    @Twinkie


    My H/VAC tech and car mechanic get paid more than $50 per hour.
     
    Anything is possible, I guess. The median wage of a car mechanic is $19/hr, and the median wage for an HVAC tech/installer is $23/hr. These are occupation codes 49-3023 and 49-9021 here.

    It's hard to exaggerate how screwed formerly middle class blue collar types are.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Twinkie

    Point being, $50 an hr aren't what blue collar professions pay.

    $50 an hr in 2018 = ca.$105 per yr. Sorry, but that IS definitely STEM, and definitely white collar. Very, very few blue collar jobs pay over $100k annually. Plumbing, perhaps some electricians, but for the most part that's essentially it. Blue Collars don't gross $100k annually. Otherwise, they'd have fewer of the social problems analyzed by Charles Murray in Coming Apart: The State of White America from 1960-2010.

    What fully isn't understood is why Charles Murray did not publicly come out in favor of Donald Trump's 2016 campaign platform. To be intellectually consistent with what he has written regarding the white lower classes, depressing wages, etc., he would have done so.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Twinkie

  54. @Anon
    @AndrewR


    $47 an hour plus benefits to process pork would be ridiculous.
     
    How is it ridiculous? Pork processing is difficult work. Would you do it for $47/hour?

    Replies: @Alden

    Most White collar workers even minimum wage retail clerks feel soooo superior to men who do physical labor and deny that those jobs require a lot of training and are highly skilled.

  55. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @27 year old
    Where I live, it seems like every single business I see has a help wanted or now hiring sign. Huge banners up by the highway. The radio ads are plastered on all channels with ZipRecruiter ads and ads for staffing companies. And many individual companies are also taking out radio ads specifically announcing they are looking for workers.

    Wages are not excellent or even fair but they are ticking up. If we can hold the line and prevent new waves of immigrants, wage increases will become noticeable. If we can actually manage cut immigration levels, things could be looking pretty good.

    There are a lot of boats in yards, but I also see a lot of them out on the water and being towed to/from. And campers are omnipresent. Credit I think explains this. Few people have any cash to speak of but making a monthly payment forever is pretty doable even for low skill people.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Anonymous

    Unemployment is indeed preposterously low, particularly if we dismiss the disaffected (those who gave up looking for work and/or are functionally unemployable). The economy is going gangbusters for the most part. Now who can tell me what comes next?

  56. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @unit472
    Growing up I had to mow the lawn. At least I had a power mower ( not self propelled) and an 'edger' a horrible device composed of a broom type handle with a wheel with triangular metal blades on one side to cut grass away from the sidewalk and driveway. I provided the power to operate it. In the fall I had a 'rake' to gather up the leaves but, at least back then, you could dispose of them by burning!

    Labor was cheap at least for my father. Since those days when fathers could slough off lawn mowing and other yard work on their children there has had a revolution in mechanical equipment that makes it faster and easier to do. We have motorized 'weed eaters' that do what the 'edger' once did. Zero turn riding mowers that can cut a couple of acres of grass faster than I could do a modest front yard. Leaf blowers, power shrub trimmers and low paid mestizos to operate the gear. It really doesn't make much sense to do your own 'landscape work' anymore and invest in all this gear when you can hire a landscape company to do it for you.

    Now if, instead of low paid mestizos, landscapers had to pay American workers $40 or $50 per hour you might see a lot more people investing a few thousand dollars in lawn tractors so they could, once again, do it themselves but more quickly and easily than when I was growing up.

    The meat packing industry too might decide investing in machinery made more sense than hiring hundreds of people to carve up cattle, pigs or chickens. That's the thing about high wages. It encourages innovation and using machines to increase productivity. Of course you need 'people' to build and service the machines but they have to have greater skills than the people the machines replace.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Twinkie, @Anonymous, @prusmc

    Gardeners where I live are getting $40 an hour–I’ve paid them this. And yes, I mean Latino gardeners who don’t speak much English. I’m sure some make less but it’s quite possible that some make more.

    Incidentally, I don’t live in one of the famously-expensive metropolises.

    • Replies: @Bill
    @Anonymous

    Grounds maintenance workers make $14/hr at median.

    , @JMcG
    @Anonymous

    Yep. My buddy just paid one of those illegals you see hanging around Home Depot parking lots 300.00 to tape and spackle the drywall he had installed himself. It took the guy 5 hours and my friend supplied all the materials.
    Welcome to a world where illegal aliens make 60.00 an hour.

    Replies: @Jack D, @notanon

  57. Good grief! Soluble borders so that well-positioned folks can access “structurally” cheap labor, privatize profits, and externalize costs is a mainstay of the bloody American experience. Ask Virginia planters who imported enslaved Africans in the 1600s. Good deal for the Southern plantocracy until it become not such a good deal–for everyone.

    Steelmakers in my area were recruiting Puerto Ricans to work in the mills as late as the 1950s, barely twenty years before the local industry collapsed due to its high-cost inland location.

    America’s Big Business cheap labor crowd works a wonderful con. (By “wonderful”, I mean I wonder how they repeatedly keep getting away with it.) They wreak social havoc by importing those disparate huddled masses to unduly enrich themselves, then their trustafarian sons and daughters bleat from their exurban gated communities about achieving “social justice” among people who just can’t seem to get along. Gosh, golly. Those Big Business types have me thinking of those very few firefighters who become arsonists, burning down a building so they can be its savior.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @JackOH

    Superior post!

    Replies: @JackOH

  58. One of Steve’s best lines and a good summary of the current wisdom of the ruling elite:

    ask not what The Economy can do for you, ask what you can do for The Economy.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @TheBoom

    Stephen Jay Gould was always complaining about "reification" of things like intelligence, but reification of The Economy is pervasive these days. Perhaps the same rhetoric got transferred from "The War Effort" during WWII to "The Economy." But of course The War Effort had a fairly coherent beneficiary while The Economy is made up of winners and losers.

    It's the usual problem of not being able to keep in mind that two things that are partly correlated are also partly uncorrelated and vice-versa.

    Replies: @JackOH, @Almost Missouri, @Anonymous, @Anon

  59. I am surprised that the article’s main focus was not on resisting higher wages and stopping the increase. We now know that the leading civil rights issue of our time is importing cheap labor

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @TheBoom

    Thanks for this clarifying comment.

    The New Civil Rights Agenda:

    #OscarsSoWhite

    #WagesSoHigh

    #GenderSoBinary

  60. @TheBoom
    One of Steve's best lines and a good summary of the current wisdom of the ruling elite:

    ask not what The Economy can do for you, ask what you can do for The Economy.
     

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Stephen Jay Gould was always complaining about “reification” of things like intelligence, but reification of The Economy is pervasive these days. Perhaps the same rhetoric got transferred from “The War Effort” during WWII to “The Economy.” But of course The War Effort had a fairly coherent beneficiary while The Economy is made up of winners and losers.

    It’s the usual problem of not being able to keep in mind that two things that are partly correlated are also partly uncorrelated and vice-versa.

    • Replies: @JackOH
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve, back in the 1980s one of Ronald Reagan's economics people (the budget director I think--Miller?) was asked on TV something "numerate" about incomes, GDP, can't quite remember. I was floored when the guy replied something like, "Well, the economy isn't just about numbers. Ultimately it's about how well we live", or words to that effect. He didn't elaborate, but it was startling to hear a money guy saying the good life isn't all about money.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Steve Sailer

    The War Effort had winners and losers too, but it was more obvious who they were going to be. For example, the people your country was dropping bombs on were which?

    Or maybe that's what you just said?

    , @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    Fulton Sheen in a talk on February 7, 1943:


    ...The Christian order starts with man; all other orders start with a class. Capitalism and Communism, for example, though opposite in their directions, like branches of a tree, are nevertheless rooted in the same economic principle, that a class is to take all. Communism is only rotted Capitalism. Under Capitalism the employer takes all; under Marxian Socialism the employee takes all.

    The Christian economic order starts with man. Its basic principle, is this: Economic activity is not the end of human life, but the Servant of human life. Therefore, the true primary end of economic production is not profit, but the satisfaction of human needs. In other words, production exists primarily for consumption, and only secondarily for profits. The old order was: Consumption exists for production and production for finance. The Christian order reverses it: Finance exists for production, production for consumption. This demands a revolutionary change of the whole economic order, because it affirms the primacy of the human over the economic. Its starting principle is that the right of a man to a living wage is prior to the right of return on investments...

    http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2010/07/bishop_fulton_sheen_on_capital.html

     

    “The economy is for man, not man for the economy.” - Fulton Sheen
    , @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    What's wrong with reification?

  61. @TheBoom
    I am surprised that the article's main focus was not on resisting higher wages and stopping the increase. We now know that the leading civil rights issue of our time is importing cheap labor

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Thanks for this clarifying comment.

    The New Civil Rights Agenda:

    #OscarsSoWhite

    #WagesSoHigh

    #GenderSoBinary

  62. @Steve Sailer
    @TheBoom

    Stephen Jay Gould was always complaining about "reification" of things like intelligence, but reification of The Economy is pervasive these days. Perhaps the same rhetoric got transferred from "The War Effort" during WWII to "The Economy." But of course The War Effort had a fairly coherent beneficiary while The Economy is made up of winners and losers.

    It's the usual problem of not being able to keep in mind that two things that are partly correlated are also partly uncorrelated and vice-versa.

    Replies: @JackOH, @Almost Missouri, @Anonymous, @Anon

    Steve, back in the 1980s one of Ronald Reagan’s economics people (the budget director I think–Miller?) was asked on TV something “numerate” about incomes, GDP, can’t quite remember. I was floored when the guy replied something like, “Well, the economy isn’t just about numbers. Ultimately it’s about how well we live”, or words to that effect. He didn’t elaborate, but it was startling to hear a money guy saying the good life isn’t all about money.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @JackOH

    David Stockman probably. Interesting guy, he has a blog now
    http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/author/stockdav/

  63. @Steve Sailer
    @TheBoom

    Stephen Jay Gould was always complaining about "reification" of things like intelligence, but reification of The Economy is pervasive these days. Perhaps the same rhetoric got transferred from "The War Effort" during WWII to "The Economy." But of course The War Effort had a fairly coherent beneficiary while The Economy is made up of winners and losers.

    It's the usual problem of not being able to keep in mind that two things that are partly correlated are also partly uncorrelated and vice-versa.

    Replies: @JackOH, @Almost Missouri, @Anonymous, @Anon

    The War Effort had winners and losers too, but it was more obvious who they were going to be. For example, the people your country was dropping bombs on were which?

    Or maybe that’s what you just said?

  64. @JackOH
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve, back in the 1980s one of Ronald Reagan's economics people (the budget director I think--Miller?) was asked on TV something "numerate" about incomes, GDP, can't quite remember. I was floored when the guy replied something like, "Well, the economy isn't just about numbers. Ultimately it's about how well we live", or words to that effect. He didn't elaborate, but it was startling to hear a money guy saying the good life isn't all about money.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    David Stockman probably. Interesting guy, he has a blog now
    http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/author/stockdav/

  65. @Jack D

    Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.
     
    Actual statistics would be nicer than Lagertha's anecdotes, charming as they are.

    Also, I take your large point (i.e. the meat packer in question (and many like him although again some sort of educated estimate of how may people are in that boat and how much immigration has affected wages would have been nice) now makes 70% less than he used to, thanks to all of the amigos now working in the plant) , but hobbies like boating, golf, tennis, etc. go in and out of fashion.

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can't afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too - I have no idea.

    Replies: @Lot, @Moral Stone, @Twinkie, @Another Canadian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Cloudbuster, @AnotherDad, @Jim bob Lassiter, @MEH 0910

    We still have a lot of boats up here. We also have a booming cottage culture here with lots of fishing, water skiing and pleasure boating. The Toronto Boat Show is huge.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    @Another Canadian


    The Toronto Boat Show is huge.

     

    Vote For Faith Goldy For Mayor Of Toronto

    Faith Goldy Will Make A Great Mayor Of Toronto!

    https://twitter.com/redicetv/status/1023034326915530752
  66. anon[374] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    @AndrewR

    Who says? Do you know how much of the cost of the meat (per lb.) is from the processing? I don't, but with greater productivity, it is probably lower than ever, and would not be a big number even at $47/hr. Granted, with productivity improvements, especially the automation of today, there would not be as many people at the jobs.

    Replies: @anon

    According to https://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/more.php?id=2005 the average labor cost of fruits and veg is 10 percent of retail prices. So doubling or tripling worker pay would have not insubstantial 10 to 20 inflation in food prices, but in the scheme of things only amounts to a hundred or so bucks per consumer unit per year…

  67. @Twinkie
    @unit472


    Now if, instead of low paid mestizos, landscapers had to pay American workers $40 or $50 per hour you might see a lot more people investing a few thousand dollars in lawn tractors so they could, once again, do it themselves but more quickly and easily than when I was growing up.
     
    Or get a horse! If too much, a goat! They'll eat through your yard fast.

    Replies: @anon

    Or even better, make your kids do it just like you did. It builds more character than posting on Twitter…

  68. Anonymous[266] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @TheBoom

    Stephen Jay Gould was always complaining about "reification" of things like intelligence, but reification of The Economy is pervasive these days. Perhaps the same rhetoric got transferred from "The War Effort" during WWII to "The Economy." But of course The War Effort had a fairly coherent beneficiary while The Economy is made up of winners and losers.

    It's the usual problem of not being able to keep in mind that two things that are partly correlated are also partly uncorrelated and vice-versa.

    Replies: @JackOH, @Almost Missouri, @Anonymous, @Anon

    Fulton Sheen in a talk on February 7, 1943:

    …The Christian order starts with man; all other orders start with a class. Capitalism and Communism, for example, though opposite in their directions, like branches of a tree, are nevertheless rooted in the same economic principle, that a class is to take all. Communism is only rotted Capitalism. Under Capitalism the employer takes all; under Marxian Socialism the employee takes all.

    The Christian economic order starts with man. Its basic principle, is this: Economic activity is not the end of human life, but the Servant of human life. Therefore, the true primary end of economic production is not profit, but the satisfaction of human needs. In other words, production exists primarily for consumption, and only secondarily for profits. The old order was: Consumption exists for production and production for finance. The Christian order reverses it: Finance exists for production, production for consumption. This demands a revolutionary change of the whole economic order, because it affirms the primacy of the human over the economic. Its starting principle is that the right of a man to a living wage is prior to the right of return on investments…

    http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2010/07/bishop_fulton_sheen_on_capital.html

    “The economy is for man, not man for the economy.” – Fulton Sheen

  69. anon[120] • Disclaimer says:
    @Moral Stone
    @Jack D

    I know some guys in their 30s who are into cars, but as a hobby it's more limited and expensive. You just can't work on modern production cars in your garage the way you can older ones, which ups the entry price.

    As for boats, I looked up some stats on sailing and it's nowhere near its peak during the baby boomer young adult years. Part of this is demographics, part of it is price, part is better entertainment options. But certainly part of it is a fad, and that part is cyclical. It's trendy again now to say "let's go sailing," because it sets you apart from (and by the fuzzy logic of social status, above) the "let's go watch netflix" crowd.

    Replies: @anon

    I own a sailboat. Many marinas and boat clubs on the East Coast are quite full of boats, some with waiting lists. The better class the marina or boat club, the more sailboats. The boat sales market is much bigger for power boats, but that’s because many folks 1) haven’t bothered to learn how to sail; 2) are in a hurry to get to fishing spots; 3) prefer listening to the whine of a high-powered motor or three over nature sounds or conversation; 4) enjoying the pounding of a planing boat over the waves; and most importantly, 5) love creating large wakes that rock everyone else’s boat and disrupt their enjoyment on the water.
    You can hear them yelling and cussing each other out over their wakes and getting cut off on Ch. 16.
    Being a power boater, with some exceptions (older folks with diesel tugs, Grand Banks-type cabin cruisers etc.), is essentially an a-hole hobby.
    Marc Rubio is a good example – $80K for a power fishing boat with no cabin or head, but lots of HP. That thing burns a few grand in gas per weekend.
    Having a sailboat means you have virtually unlimited range to get away from the riff-raff, in peace.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Disordered
    @anon

    As someone who lives in Florida, I agree and might add a #6: social media princesses love pics on (motor) boats. Usually the same girls who cannot live without a legit Michael Kors. And the boats, aren't usually theirs, for as you mentioned it is an a-hole hobby.

  70. @Anonymous
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaJaDx51iw

    Replies: @fnn, @Corvinus

    The phrase “Who is America?” sounds rather odd, but I think I’ve heard something similar before.

    http://acrossdifficultcountry.blogspot.com/2005/01/one-is-esoteric-straussian-other-went.html

    America is not only for the whites , but it is for all. Who is the America? The American is you, me and that. When we go to America we will become Americans and there is no a race or nationalism called America and the Americans are those Africans, Indians, Chinese, and Europeans and whoever goes to America will become American…American is for all of us and the whole world had made and created America. All the people all over the world had made America and it shall accordingly be for all of us. I will never feel ashamed when I claim for my right in America and it will not be strange when I raise my voice in America.

    – Col. Moammar Gadhafi

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @fnn

    The notion that one of SBC's screenwriters has occasionally dropped by here is unproven but not implausible.

    , @Cagey Beast
    @fnn

    Sasha Baron Cohen or someone on his team could easily have seen that quote while researching his dictator comedy. That whole quote does capture perfectly the Third World's understanding of things.

    Replies: @inertial

  71. @Jack D

    Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.
     
    Actual statistics would be nicer than Lagertha's anecdotes, charming as they are.

    Also, I take your large point (i.e. the meat packer in question (and many like him although again some sort of educated estimate of how may people are in that boat and how much immigration has affected wages would have been nice) now makes 70% less than he used to, thanks to all of the amigos now working in the plant) , but hobbies like boating, golf, tennis, etc. go in and out of fashion.

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can't afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too - I have no idea.

    Replies: @Lot, @Moral Stone, @Twinkie, @Another Canadian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Cloudbuster, @AnotherDad, @Jim bob Lassiter, @MEH 0910

    The decaying boat (Db as opposed dB decibels) is a reliable metric of distress.

    We are all in this boat together.

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
    @Buzz Mohawk

    As the late Jack Kemp said "a rising tide lifts all boats."

    (Except, of course, for the ones that sink.) (Which boats in our wonderfully diverse society just don't float, no matter how much the tide rises?)

    https://www.cnbc.com/id/46257486

    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I guess Gilligan took this photo?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  72. @NonVibrant
    I have no doubt that, any day now, the NYT will run a counterpoint opinion piece by an Iowan against more immigrants. They DO want both sides of the story, don't they?

    Replies: @Corn

    I’m sure they will. The headline will read “Ominous Growth of White Nationalism in Iowa”

  73. I worked in a pork processing facility in South Philadelphia in the mid 1970’s and again in the early 1980’s. The pay was excellent and the work was dirty, hard, physically demanding and very boring. The men, however, benefited from a life style which they had earned through enduring the many rigors of a very tough work place. There were nice cars in the parking lot, nice clothing after they changed out of their uniforms, and nice homes in the city or suburbs as they had the financial choice to live in either area.

    In 1984 the company laid off the majority of our work force, putting men on the street for about six months, thus necessitating the union to approach the company, hat in hand, to renegotiate the current union contract.

    I was very fortunate. As one of the few employees with a college degree I was able to make a nice lateral move to a different industry, where I am still employed. The rest of the men were not so lucky. The renegotiated wage was approximately 30 % lower than what the average employee had been making ! A 30 % cut in wage !

    The place reopened, briefly, for 4-5 years and then shut down completely, shifting production to a sister facility in another state. I have no idea what happened to most of my co-workers, some of them functionally illiterate, but I doubt that the results were positive. Good men, put on the street because of the avarice of the wealthy. What a fucking surprise.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @RickMcHale

    Cases like the one you described have happened again and again, and are happening now. Without some kind of protection for labor and the sovereignty of our domestic industries, they will keep happening until our country is reduced to the groveling standards of much of the rest of the world.

    There you were, part of a domestic production system that was functioning well: Americans taking an American commodity and processing it down into useful products for American customers. There was no need to replace you with cheaper labor, but that is what happened. Without something to prevent it from happening to the workers of a high-standard economy, it will happen Every. Damned. Time. -- or as long as there is an endless supply of billions of cheap workers.

    One overlooked consequence of this is the loss of American consumers for other products. You guys bought nice American cars and clothes and things. After that, many of your co-workers then could no longer afford to buy those things, and much of the production of those types of things also moved to cheap labor countries.

    Henry Ford understood that by paying decent wages to the people who built his cars, he was creating a class of customers for his product and other American products. The greedy bastards who continue to import your replacements and to send your work outside when they can will never understand or care about this, because they are not Americans at heart.

    Replies: @RickMcHale, @Jack D

    , @Rosie
    @RickMcHale


    I have no idea what happened to most of my co-workers, some of them functionally illiterate, but I doubt that the results were positive. Good men, put on the street because of the avarice of the wealthy. What a fucking surprise.
     
    I think this is a lot more common than people realize. When you get to know someone who can't read, it's amazing how they find ways to get by.
  74. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D

    The decaying boat (Db as opposed dB decibels) is a reliable metric of distress.

    We are all in this boat together.

    http://cdn.directexpose.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/sportingz-com.jpg

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe, @MikeatMikedotMike

    As the late Jack Kemp said “a rising tide lifts all boats.”

    (Except, of course, for the ones that sink.) (Which boats in our wonderfully diverse society just don’t float, no matter how much the tide rises?)

    https://www.cnbc.com/id/46257486

  75. @fnn
    @Anonymous

    The phrase "Who is America?" sounds rather odd, but I think I've heard something similar before.

    http://acrossdifficultcountry.blogspot.com/2005/01/one-is-esoteric-straussian-other-went.html


    America is not only for the whites , but it is for all. Who is the America? The American is you, me and that. When we go to America we will become Americans and there is no a race or nationalism called America and the Americans are those Africans, Indians, Chinese, and Europeans and whoever goes to America will become American...American is for all of us and the whole world had made and created America. All the people all over the world had made America and it shall accordingly be for all of us. I will never feel ashamed when I claim for my right in America and it will not be strange when I raise my voice in America.
     
    - Col. Moammar Gadhafi

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cagey Beast

    The notion that one of SBC’s screenwriters has occasionally dropped by here is unproven but not implausible.

  76. Not many iSteve boaters then?

    The Minority Mortgage Meltdown and subsequent collapse of auto manufacturing took down with it our RV and Boat manufacturing/retailing sectors. We lost several boat make/brands as well as major engine/drive brands.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genmar_Holdings

    Also, the peak of outboard motor manufacturing was in the 60’s I think with the advent of stern drive I/O systems and water jet propulsion systems becoming popular. Add the fuel crisis of the 70’s and 80’s, add the fuel prices post 9/11, etc, and boating has become much more a rich man’s game with the cheap aluminum trailer boat and 5hp outboard a relic of the past.

    The biggest factors, I think, are lower disposable income among the bottom 50% of our population, EPA regulation on motors and motor costs, fuel prices (it’s frighteningly easy to burn $1000 in fuel in a few hours), and shift in consumer interest to more exciting watercraft like jet skis, jet boats, etc. The upper bounds of the market seem solid, tournament fishing boats can easily top $1mil and there is no limit on luxury yachts. But when your old $500 Grumman aluminum boat with a 10hp two stroke is replaced by a $500,000 Contender with five 7-marine 600hp outboards, you can see where the numbers on the water might decline..

  77. @RickMcHale
    I worked in a pork processing facility in South Philadelphia in the mid 1970's and again in the early 1980's. The pay was excellent and the work was dirty, hard, physically demanding and very boring. The men, however, benefited from a life style which they had earned through enduring the many rigors of a very tough work place. There were nice cars in the parking lot, nice clothing after they changed out of their uniforms, and nice homes in the city or suburbs as they had the financial choice to live in either area.

    In 1984 the company laid off the majority of our work force, putting men on the street for about six months, thus necessitating the union to approach the company, hat in hand, to renegotiate the current union contract.

    I was very fortunate. As one of the few employees with a college degree I was able to make a nice lateral move to a different industry, where I am still employed. The rest of the men were not so lucky. The renegotiated wage was approximately 30 % lower than what the average employee had been making ! A 30 % cut in wage !

    The place reopened, briefly, for 4-5 years and then shut down completely, shifting production to a sister facility in another state. I have no idea what happened to most of my co-workers, some of them functionally illiterate, but I doubt that the results were positive. Good men, put on the street because of the avarice of the wealthy. What a fucking surprise.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Rosie

    Cases like the one you described have happened again and again, and are happening now. Without some kind of protection for labor and the sovereignty of our domestic industries, they will keep happening until our country is reduced to the groveling standards of much of the rest of the world.

    There you were, part of a domestic production system that was functioning well: Americans taking an American commodity and processing it down into useful products for American customers. There was no need to replace you with cheaper labor, but that is what happened. Without something to prevent it from happening to the workers of a high-standard economy, it will happen Every. Damned. Time. — or as long as there is an endless supply of billions of cheap workers.

    One overlooked consequence of this is the loss of American consumers for other products. You guys bought nice American cars and clothes and things. After that, many of your co-workers then could no longer afford to buy those things, and much of the production of those types of things also moved to cheap labor countries.

    Henry Ford understood that by paying decent wages to the people who built his cars, he was creating a class of customers for his product and other American products. The greedy bastards who continue to import your replacements and to send your work outside when they can will never understand or care about this, because they are not Americans at heart.

    • Replies: @RickMcHale
    @Buzz Mohawk

    You beat me to the punch about Henry Ford. An excellent example of the necessity of a healthy, vibrant middle class for any nation that strives to be a truly civilized country. Thanks.

    Your additional reference to the 'greedy bastards'.......'who are not Americans at heart', is also right on the money, on both the left and the right of our political spectrum.

    , @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Henry Ford understood that by paying decent wages to the people who built his cars, he was creating a class of customers for his product and other American products.
     
    This was not his original intention, just an unintended consequence of the high wages that he was forced to pay due to labor market conditions (and the economies of scale (which he created) that made his cars cheap enough for his own employees to buy).

    More specifically, he was plagued by extremely high turnover at what was then the prevailing wage and by paying significantly more, he could reduce turnover and skim the cream of the crop of industrial workers who would be the most productive. It was a good business move and had nothing to do with altruism. If he could have had low turnover and a quality workforce for $2 a day he would have stayed with that, but he couldn't so he paid more. It was also a coincidence that his business was building really cheap cars - if his product was luxury cars or planes, etc. it would not have occurred to anyone that the wages had to be high enough to enable the workers to buy the factory's products.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-story-of-henry-fords-5-a-day-wages-its-not-what-you-think/#23b1102766d2

    BTW, $5 day is equivalent to around $15/hr in 2018 $ - it seems like that is a sort of equilibrium industrial wage in America, briefly exceeded only in brief golden ages.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @notanon

  78. TG says:

    Karl Marx got many things wrong, but he got one big thing right. The history of civilization really is about class war.

    For the rich as a class, it’s all about cheap labor. Without cheap labor, not only would the profits of the rich decline, but the rich as a class would wither away. With expensive labor, the only rich people would be those with high-level managerial and talent and energy.

    Why do you think that the plantation owners in the ante-bellum American South fought a bloody war to preserve slavery? Because without slavery, the plantation system would have been impossible. And why have Northern elites fought to long and hard to open the borders to mass immigration? Because it creates poverty for the many and riches for the few.

    Cheap Labor Uber Alles!

    • Replies: @notanon
    @TG

    cheap labor causes economic stagnation - unfortunately greedy sociopaths are too greedy and sociopathic to understand this

  79. A big reason boats rot in driveways is because the outdrive units on inboard/outboards is extremely expensive to overhaul and repair. And they invariably and inevitably need both, especially if the boat is left in the water for any appreciable length of time with the unit immersed.

    In contrast, those 1970’s – 80’s 30-90 horse 2-stroke outboards on those 17′ fiberglas runabouts were cheap to run, relatively reliable (alnico magnets in the magnetos and electronic ignition helping out here compared to 1960’s versions) and simple to repair.

    As a really well trained/experienced outboard mechanic once told me, “Most of those outboard engines failed from improper off-season storage rather than through use”. Inverting the motor or laying it on its side which lets water left in the lower unit run up into the reed valves was a major cause of failure.

    But take a look for yourselves. Most derelict boats in driveways have outdrives.

  80. @Another Canadian
    @Jack D

    We still have a lot of boats up here. We also have a booming cottage culture here with lots of fishing, water skiing and pleasure boating. The Toronto Boat Show is huge.

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    The Toronto Boat Show is huge.

    Vote For Faith Goldy For Mayor Of Toronto

    Faith Goldy Will Make A Great Mayor Of Toronto!

    https://twitter.com/redicetv/status/1023034326915530752

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  81. @Alden
    @Anon

    I agree. Good riddance.

    Restaurants have long had the highest rate of failure of all businesses. There are millions more than there were 50 years ago. Drive down a city street past one or two mini malls every block. Every mini mall is mostly restaurants. If there are 8 stores 6 will be restaurants. Too many restaurants are chasing too few customers.

    I try never to eat in restaurants as I’m just giving money to the enemy, immigrants and their employers.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @stillCARealist

    After having moved back to the U.S. after about 6 years in Europe, I’ve also noticed to super-abundance of restaurants here. I rarely eat at them, so I can’t opine about the quality of food or service, but the architecture and advertising are garish. I suspect that we would be better off if at least half of them closed and people went back to cooking and eating at home.

  82. I loved it when Trump protected a great American patriot, Joe Arpaio, by granting him free from the attacks of certain horrible elements in the US government.

    I DO NOT support, however, Trumpy’s decision to give a get out of jail free card to a disgusting money-grubbing rat who was using cheap labor illegal alien invaders in Iowa at his meatpacking plant.

    Trumpy has to make himself lovable in order to be loved.

    Stop coddling the money-grubbing shysters, Trumpy!

    • Replies: @Buck Turgidson
    @Charles Pewitt

    Rubashkin is evil and led the crew that descended upon and demolished the small ne Iowa community of Postville. They set up a meat processing plant and imported loads of third worlders for the "cheap" labor, blowing apart the community's cultural fabric. Hed be cooling his heels in an uncomfortable jail cell forever if it was up to me.

  83. @Lot
    @Jack D

    There isn't as much to be into with cars now. You can't mod them much, and a basic $5000 used car can go 120 mph, if you dare.

    There isn't much to restore either. Classic cars from the 80s and 90s are ugly and slow.

    When I was 11 to 15 my friends often had sports car posters on their walls and as their PC background picture. I doubt this is mainstream and common now.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Reg Cæsar

    There isn’t much to restore either. Classic cars from the 80s and 90s are ugly and slow.

    It’s aerodynamics, encouraged by CAFE. I remember a farm kid back in the ’90s referring to cars of the day as “potatoes”, because that was their shape.

  84. @dfordoom
    @27 year old


    Credit I think explains this. Few people have any cash to speak of but making a monthly payment forever is pretty doable even for low skill people.
     
    Getting into debt that you can never ever escape is always a sound move. What could possibly go wrong? You just have to make sure you never grow old or get sick or have a family member get sick and that you have a job that is absolutely secure for life. It's too easy.

    Replies: @MarkinLA

    Well unless they can force you to sell your house to pay it off, you have lost nothing if you can no longer service the debt. If they can force a sale of the house, as long as your mortgage is equal to what the house is worth, you still haven’t lost anything.

    There are three groups of people in this country living large compared to what they earn – those on welfare, the working poor qualifying for welfare, and the super rich. All of these people get far more out of the system than they put in.

  85. @Jack D

    Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.
     
    Actual statistics would be nicer than Lagertha's anecdotes, charming as they are.

    Also, I take your large point (i.e. the meat packer in question (and many like him although again some sort of educated estimate of how may people are in that boat and how much immigration has affected wages would have been nice) now makes 70% less than he used to, thanks to all of the amigos now working in the plant) , but hobbies like boating, golf, tennis, etc. go in and out of fashion.

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can't afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too - I have no idea.

    Replies: @Lot, @Moral Stone, @Twinkie, @Another Canadian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Cloudbuster, @AnotherDad, @Jim bob Lassiter, @MEH 0910

    Old boats decaying in yards has been a feature of rural locations with nearby water forever, as far as I know.

    The thing with boats is, they seem like a great idea. But then you buy one and after a couple outings the shine wears off and it becomes a chore and only a really small percentage are of the type who continue to think “Wow! This is something I want to do every weekend!”

    A large percentage are of the type, “I keep meaning to take that boat out, but, you know, other stuff always gets in the way….”

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Cloudbuster

    Old cars are the same.

    I sometime go hiking to the west of Philly, in the zone where the Philly suburbs transition to rural areas (the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what's left is West Virginia). Somewhere in there, there is an invisible boundary - to the east of that boundary, when you pass people on the trail they don't say anything to you, to the west of it you have to greet everyone you pass. To the east, the yards are neatly manicured and to the west, every house has an old car up on blocks in the back yard.

    Replies: @Corn

    , @Johann Ricke
    @Cloudbuster


    A large percentage are of the type, “I keep meaning to take that boat out, but, you know, other stuff always gets in the way….”
     
    A colleague of mine had a sailboat and a slip, and went out on the water every weekend. He joked that for the owner of a boat, his happiest moments are when he first buys the boat and when he finally sells it.

    Replies: @Anon87

    , @Coburn
    @Cloudbuster

    The second happiest day in a man's life is the day he buys a boat.
    The happiest day in a man's life is the day he sells the boat.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  86. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D

    The decaying boat (Db as opposed dB decibels) is a reliable metric of distress.

    We are all in this boat together.

    http://cdn.directexpose.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/sportingz-com.jpg

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe, @MikeatMikedotMike

    I guess Gilligan took this photo?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    Yes, Gilligan took the photo, which is why the decaying-boat-per-capita ratio is 1/7, not 1/6.

    That is still a very serious condition.

    Db = .143 is bad.

  87. @Twinkie
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    $51.43 an hr. does sound like a lot, doesn’t it? I mean, what kind of work today can one earn over 50 bucks per hr? That’s like a white collar professional wage, right?
     
    My H/VAC tech and car mechanic get paid more than $50 per hour.

    Replies: @Bill, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    My H/VAC tech and car mechanic get paid more than $50 per hour.

    Anything is possible, I guess. The median wage of a car mechanic is $19/hr, and the median wage for an HVAC tech/installer is $23/hr. These are occupation codes 49-3023 and 49-9021 here.

    It’s hard to exaggerate how screwed formerly middle class blue collar types are.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Bill

    I represent a client with a unionized work force that performs a type of skilled mechanical service work in NYC in office buildings, hospitals, commercial buildings, etc. (I don't want to be too specific). Some of their technicians, with overtime, make well in excess of $100K of gross pay.

    Replies: @Bill

  88. @Anonymous
    @unit472

    Gardeners where I live are getting $40 an hour--I've paid them this. And yes, I mean Latino gardeners who don't speak much English. I'm sure some make less but it's quite possible that some make more.

    Incidentally, I don't live in one of the famously-expensive metropolises.

    Replies: @Bill, @JMcG

    Grounds maintenance workers make $14/hr at median.

  89. @anon
    Speaking on this subject Mr. Sailer, aren't we due for yet another "the crops are rotting in the fields/need more immigrants" rant from the mainstream media?

    Replies: @Lot, @pyrrhus

    And everyone knows that without H1-Bs, the electrons would be rotting in the computers….

  90. @Alden
    @Anon

    I agree. Good riddance.

    Restaurants have long had the highest rate of failure of all businesses. There are millions more than there were 50 years ago. Drive down a city street past one or two mini malls every block. Every mini mall is mostly restaurants. If there are 8 stores 6 will be restaurants. Too many restaurants are chasing too few customers.

    I try never to eat in restaurants as I’m just giving money to the enemy, immigrants and their employers.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @stillCARealist

    I rarely eat in restaurants myself, but not because of immigrants. Restaurants are fattening, expensive, and often the food isn’t that great.

    If you duplicate a pricey meal at home, with fine wine and a choice cut of meat, you can drink as much as you want, save tons of money, and avoid that bloated feeling that comes from cleaning a plate you paid too much for. Trifecta.

    Unless you’re traveling, there’s just no reason to be eating out. Even meeting clients can take place just fine in an office with a good coffee machine (that’s what my well-remunerated, business-man husband does).

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @stillCARealist

    The economics of the restaurant business dictate that food cost can be no more than roughly 25% to 35% or so of the menu price on average (and remember that you pay maybe 1.25 x the menu price for tax and tip) or else your restaurant will go broke. (Note that this is an average - some menu items have an even higher margin, other items are lower). The rest is for labor, rent, utilities, interest, etc. , which are costs that you don't have to pay when you eat at home (you work for free, your rent is paid anyway). So by definition, any home cooked meal will cost 1/4 or 1/3 of what it would cost you to eat that same meal out. This doesn't mean you should never eat out, but you will always save $ by eating at home.

    , @slumber_j
    @stillCARealist

    You're right about a lot of that, although I'd say there are some things worth eating at a restaurant. I'm not deep-frying stuff at home, for example: I know one can, but I don't want to, and the fat gets expensive if you're not frying a ton.

    Or take Thai food or whatever: a lot of ethnic food is just gonna be better when it's cooked by people who know what they're doing. Etc.


    [...]avoid that bloated feeling that comes from cleaning a plate you paid too much for.
     
    My late father once offered his insight that people who feel compelled to finish every bite misunderstand what they're buying at a restaurant. You're not buying the food but the experience--which entails an option on the food.
    , @AnotherDad
    @stillCARealist


    I rarely eat in restaurants myself, but not because of immigrants. Restaurants are fattening, expensive, and often the food isn’t that great.
     
    Agree. I think the whole restaurant thing is ridiculous. Ridiculous in the amount of money Americans blow on them.

    The experience is just better at home. I can eat what I want. It's way more comfortable. I get up when I want and roam back into the kitchen if I want to try something else, or something more. The drinks are way cheaper. The ambiance is way, way better. The conversation with your family, friends, neighbors much easier (less noise) and more relaxed. And no pressure to get the heck outta there. If the evening--or even afternoon--is pleasurable and fun, it can linger as long as folks like.

    Oh, and on a cool evening i can fire up the fire pit (PNW) or on a hot day jump in the pool (Florida).

    It's a knockout.

    Replies: @Clyde, @MBlanc46

  91. @Buzz Mohawk
    @RickMcHale

    Cases like the one you described have happened again and again, and are happening now. Without some kind of protection for labor and the sovereignty of our domestic industries, they will keep happening until our country is reduced to the groveling standards of much of the rest of the world.

    There you were, part of a domestic production system that was functioning well: Americans taking an American commodity and processing it down into useful products for American customers. There was no need to replace you with cheaper labor, but that is what happened. Without something to prevent it from happening to the workers of a high-standard economy, it will happen Every. Damned. Time. -- or as long as there is an endless supply of billions of cheap workers.

    One overlooked consequence of this is the loss of American consumers for other products. You guys bought nice American cars and clothes and things. After that, many of your co-workers then could no longer afford to buy those things, and much of the production of those types of things also moved to cheap labor countries.

    Henry Ford understood that by paying decent wages to the people who built his cars, he was creating a class of customers for his product and other American products. The greedy bastards who continue to import your replacements and to send your work outside when they can will never understand or care about this, because they are not Americans at heart.

    Replies: @RickMcHale, @Jack D

    You beat me to the punch about Henry Ford. An excellent example of the necessity of a healthy, vibrant middle class for any nation that strives to be a truly civilized country. Thanks.

    Your additional reference to the ‘greedy bastards’…….’who are not Americans at heart’, is also right on the money, on both the left and the right of our political spectrum.

  92. @unit472
    Growing up I had to mow the lawn. At least I had a power mower ( not self propelled) and an 'edger' a horrible device composed of a broom type handle with a wheel with triangular metal blades on one side to cut grass away from the sidewalk and driveway. I provided the power to operate it. In the fall I had a 'rake' to gather up the leaves but, at least back then, you could dispose of them by burning!

    Labor was cheap at least for my father. Since those days when fathers could slough off lawn mowing and other yard work on their children there has had a revolution in mechanical equipment that makes it faster and easier to do. We have motorized 'weed eaters' that do what the 'edger' once did. Zero turn riding mowers that can cut a couple of acres of grass faster than I could do a modest front yard. Leaf blowers, power shrub trimmers and low paid mestizos to operate the gear. It really doesn't make much sense to do your own 'landscape work' anymore and invest in all this gear when you can hire a landscape company to do it for you.

    Now if, instead of low paid mestizos, landscapers had to pay American workers $40 or $50 per hour you might see a lot more people investing a few thousand dollars in lawn tractors so they could, once again, do it themselves but more quickly and easily than when I was growing up.

    The meat packing industry too might decide investing in machinery made more sense than hiring hundreds of people to carve up cattle, pigs or chickens. That's the thing about high wages. It encourages innovation and using machines to increase productivity. Of course you need 'people' to build and service the machines but they have to have greater skills than the people the machines replace.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Twinkie, @Anonymous, @prusmc

    I believe the turning point was in 1990 or 1991 after a long and bitter strike at a Hormel pork processing plant in Minnesota. The company vanquished the Union and the wage structure and worker make up went down and away. BTW chicken slaughter is on the way to being very low labor as robots are being phased in. Pork is next because there is not a great difference in Caracas size. Beef processing automation is hampered by lack of size standardized raw material.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @prusmc

    Roy Beck wrote that even the union had to admit the company's hand was forced by its competitors' using immigrant, sometimes illegal, labor.

  93. @fnn
    @Anonymous

    The phrase "Who is America?" sounds rather odd, but I think I've heard something similar before.

    http://acrossdifficultcountry.blogspot.com/2005/01/one-is-esoteric-straussian-other-went.html


    America is not only for the whites , but it is for all. Who is the America? The American is you, me and that. When we go to America we will become Americans and there is no a race or nationalism called America and the Americans are those Africans, Indians, Chinese, and Europeans and whoever goes to America will become American...American is for all of us and the whole world had made and created America. All the people all over the world had made America and it shall accordingly be for all of us. I will never feel ashamed when I claim for my right in America and it will not be strange when I raise my voice in America.
     
    - Col. Moammar Gadhafi

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cagey Beast

    Sasha Baron Cohen or someone on his team could easily have seen that quote while researching his dictator comedy. That whole quote does capture perfectly the Third World’s understanding of things.

    • Replies: @inertial
    @Cagey Beast

    This view of America is common all over the Old World, especially Europe. "We took America from the Indians and now it's ours."

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @MBlanc46

  94. @Twinkie
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    $51.43 an hr. does sound like a lot, doesn’t it? I mean, what kind of work today can one earn over 50 bucks per hr? That’s like a white collar professional wage, right?
     
    My H/VAC tech and car mechanic get paid more than $50 per hour.

    Replies: @Bill, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Point being, $50 an hr aren’t what blue collar professions pay.

    $50 an hr in 2018 = ca.$105 per yr. Sorry, but that IS definitely STEM, and definitely white collar. Very, very few blue collar jobs pay over $100k annually. Plumbing, perhaps some electricians, but for the most part that’s essentially it. Blue Collars don’t gross $100k annually. Otherwise, they’d have fewer of the social problems analyzed by Charles Murray in Coming Apart: The State of White America from 1960-2010.

    What fully isn’t understood is why Charles Murray did not publicly come out in favor of Donald Trump’s 2016 campaign platform. To be intellectually consistent with what he has written regarding the white lower classes, depressing wages, etc., he would have done so.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    His son would have disowned him.

    , @Twinkie
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    Very, very few blue collar jobs pay over $100k annually. Plumbing, perhaps some electricians, but for the most part that’s essentially it.
     
    I live in an expensive area where the demand for H/VAC techs and auto mechanics who is capable and can communicate well in English are in short supply.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  95. @Cagey Beast
    @fnn

    Sasha Baron Cohen or someone on his team could easily have seen that quote while researching his dictator comedy. That whole quote does capture perfectly the Third World's understanding of things.

    Replies: @inertial

    This view of America is common all over the Old World, especially Europe. “We took America from the Indians and now it’s ours.”

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @inertial

    That may be true now; it may be the general consensus in Europe that America is "stolen land" and therefore open to anyone. That is pretty much what Hollywood and official America has been increasingly saying for the last fifty years.

    , @MBlanc46
    @inertial

    We stole it fair and square. It’s ours.

  96. @Buzz Mohawk
    @RickMcHale

    Cases like the one you described have happened again and again, and are happening now. Without some kind of protection for labor and the sovereignty of our domestic industries, they will keep happening until our country is reduced to the groveling standards of much of the rest of the world.

    There you were, part of a domestic production system that was functioning well: Americans taking an American commodity and processing it down into useful products for American customers. There was no need to replace you with cheaper labor, but that is what happened. Without something to prevent it from happening to the workers of a high-standard economy, it will happen Every. Damned. Time. -- or as long as there is an endless supply of billions of cheap workers.

    One overlooked consequence of this is the loss of American consumers for other products. You guys bought nice American cars and clothes and things. After that, many of your co-workers then could no longer afford to buy those things, and much of the production of those types of things also moved to cheap labor countries.

    Henry Ford understood that by paying decent wages to the people who built his cars, he was creating a class of customers for his product and other American products. The greedy bastards who continue to import your replacements and to send your work outside when they can will never understand or care about this, because they are not Americans at heart.

    Replies: @RickMcHale, @Jack D

    Henry Ford understood that by paying decent wages to the people who built his cars, he was creating a class of customers for his product and other American products.

    This was not his original intention, just an unintended consequence of the high wages that he was forced to pay due to labor market conditions (and the economies of scale (which he created) that made his cars cheap enough for his own employees to buy).

    More specifically, he was plagued by extremely high turnover at what was then the prevailing wage and by paying significantly more, he could reduce turnover and skim the cream of the crop of industrial workers who would be the most productive. It was a good business move and had nothing to do with altruism. If he could have had low turnover and a quality workforce for $2 a day he would have stayed with that, but he couldn’t so he paid more. It was also a coincidence that his business was building really cheap cars – if his product was luxury cars or planes, etc. it would not have occurred to anyone that the wages had to be high enough to enable the workers to buy the factory’s products.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-story-of-henry-fords-5-a-day-wages-its-not-what-you-think/#23b1102766d2

    BTW, $5 day is equivalent to around $15/hr in 2018 $ – it seems like that is a sort of equilibrium industrial wage in America, briefly exceeded only in brief golden ages.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D

    That $5 a day Ford announced in January 1914 would be $126 a day now, or 15.75 per hour in our eight hour days. $31,500 per year by our standards of full-time employment. However, you got your figures from the CPI, just as I did. Those are very lowball. It would be higher today if our government inflation statistics were honest. Such things are not simple, linear comparison, either. That kind of daily wage was a revelation for Americans at that time. You can't simply extrapolate what it would mean to us now. All you have to do is look at the attention it got (which is why we even know and are talking about it) to understand what it meant to American labor.

    Technically, my statement did not assume anything about Ford's intentions, only that Henry understood what that wage would do for his employees and their purchasing power. Did I say he wanted to pay it? No, Jack, I did not.

    You have just proven my TRUE point: Cheap labor is bad. Well paid labor is good. Ford created well paid labor.

    Ford DID want to produce affordable cars, and he endured terrible resistance and overcame roadblocks from the elite of his time, those guys who knew so much better than Henry about the business. You would know the type: They had all kinds of know-it-all reasons why Ford's plan would be a bad thing -- for them.

    Ford began personal, affordable automotive transportation and revolutionized its production, in the process helping to create the American standard of living and freedom that became the envy of the world -- no matter what you or his opponents might ever have to say about it.

    Thanks, though, for yet another lecture that really doesn't change the point I was making.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @notanon
    @Jack D


    This was not his original intention,
     
    right - the clear benefit of a middle class economy - maximum prosperity via optimal velocity of money - was discovered by accident. - it's just a shame the greedy sociopaths were too greedy to leave it be else we'd have flying cars as predicted.
  97. @stillCARealist
    @Alden

    I rarely eat in restaurants myself, but not because of immigrants. Restaurants are fattening, expensive, and often the food isn't that great.

    If you duplicate a pricey meal at home, with fine wine and a choice cut of meat, you can drink as much as you want, save tons of money, and avoid that bloated feeling that comes from cleaning a plate you paid too much for. Trifecta.

    Unless you're traveling, there's just no reason to be eating out. Even meeting clients can take place just fine in an office with a good coffee machine (that's what my well-remunerated, business-man husband does).

    Replies: @Jack D, @slumber_j, @AnotherDad

    The economics of the restaurant business dictate that food cost can be no more than roughly 25% to 35% or so of the menu price on average (and remember that you pay maybe 1.25 x the menu price for tax and tip) or else your restaurant will go broke. (Note that this is an average – some menu items have an even higher margin, other items are lower). The rest is for labor, rent, utilities, interest, etc. , which are costs that you don’t have to pay when you eat at home (you work for free, your rent is paid anyway). So by definition, any home cooked meal will cost 1/4 or 1/3 of what it would cost you to eat that same meal out. This doesn’t mean you should never eat out, but you will always save $ by eating at home.

  98. @Bill
    @Twinkie


    My H/VAC tech and car mechanic get paid more than $50 per hour.
     
    Anything is possible, I guess. The median wage of a car mechanic is $19/hr, and the median wage for an HVAC tech/installer is $23/hr. These are occupation codes 49-3023 and 49-9021 here.

    It's hard to exaggerate how screwed formerly middle class blue collar types are.

    Replies: @Jack D

    I represent a client with a unionized work force that performs a type of skilled mechanical service work in NYC in office buildings, hospitals, commercial buildings, etc. (I don’t want to be too specific). Some of their technicians, with overtime, make well in excess of $100K of gross pay.

    • Replies: @Bill
    @Jack D

    Exactly my point.

  99. @Anonymous
    @unit472

    Gardeners where I live are getting $40 an hour--I've paid them this. And yes, I mean Latino gardeners who don't speak much English. I'm sure some make less but it's quite possible that some make more.

    Incidentally, I don't live in one of the famously-expensive metropolises.

    Replies: @Bill, @JMcG

    Yep. My buddy just paid one of those illegals you see hanging around Home Depot parking lots 300.00 to tape and spackle the drywall he had installed himself. It took the guy 5 hours and my friend supplied all the materials.
    Welcome to a world where illegal aliens make 60.00 an hour.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @JMcG

    I think people here are confusing "wholesale" with "retail" - there is one price you pay a landscaping contractor for a guy to cut your lawn and there is a different (much lower) # which represents the amount the guy cutting the lawn takes home. You are buying labor retail and the landscaping contractor buys it wholesale for a lower price. Even if you try to cut out the middleman you have to pay a more or less retail price anyway.

    , @notanon
    @JMcG


    Welcome to a world where illegal aliens make 60.00 an hour.
     
    and how many hours in an average week would he make that

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter

  100. @Cloudbuster
    @Jack D

    Old boats decaying in yards has been a feature of rural locations with nearby water forever, as far as I know.

    The thing with boats is, they seem like a great idea. But then you buy one and after a couple outings the shine wears off and it becomes a chore and only a really small percentage are of the type who continue to think "Wow! This is something I want to do every weekend!"

    A large percentage are of the type, "I keep meaning to take that boat out, but, you know, other stuff always gets in the way...."

    Replies: @Jack D, @Johann Ricke, @Coburn

    Old cars are the same.

    I sometime go hiking to the west of Philly, in the zone where the Philly suburbs transition to rural areas (the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what’s left is West Virginia). Somewhere in there, there is an invisible boundary – to the east of that boundary, when you pass people on the trail they don’t say anything to you, to the west of it you have to greet everyone you pass. To the east, the yards are neatly manicured and to the west, every house has an old car up on blocks in the back yard.

    • Replies: @Corn
    @Jack D

    “(the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what’s left is West Virginia).”

    Lol. I think it was James Carville who said “Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in the middle.”

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Anon87

  101. I grew up in a wealthy to upper middle class area of suburban NYC full of Wall St. people, professionals, executives, higher paid tradesman and small business owners and higher ranking teachers and police officers in the 80’s and abandoned boats were in an incredibly high proportion of the back yards and driveways. Over the course of the 90’s, they largely went away. The peak of recreational part time driveway boating must have been in the 70’s and early 80’s.

    I got the sense it was more silent generation affluent men owning the boats and the more stereotypical Woodstock generation boomers like my parents were less interested.

    My peers had three types of parents. Most had typical boomers. Some had older silent gen. dads with younger boomer wives, often second wives and some had younger parents who were early Xers with same new wave taste in music as Steve. The silent gen dads were real classy, old school types with better manners and bearing than boomers. Those were the boat guys.

  102. @MikeatMikedotMike
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I guess Gilligan took this photo?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    Yes, Gilligan took the photo, which is why the decaying-boat-per-capita ratio is 1/7, not 1/6.

    That is still a very serious condition.

    Db = .143 is bad.

  103. @WillBest
    @AndrewR

    $47/HR for meat packing is less ridiculous than $130k diversity recruiting officer

    Replies: @Jack D

    How about $5,800/hr for the CEO of Tyson (chicken)?

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-22/tyson-ceo-to-exit-with-24-million-5-800-an-hour-advisory-job

    How many thousands of Tyson line workers could have gotten significant raises with his $24,000,000 pay package?

  104. @stillCARealist
    @Alden

    I rarely eat in restaurants myself, but not because of immigrants. Restaurants are fattening, expensive, and often the food isn't that great.

    If you duplicate a pricey meal at home, with fine wine and a choice cut of meat, you can drink as much as you want, save tons of money, and avoid that bloated feeling that comes from cleaning a plate you paid too much for. Trifecta.

    Unless you're traveling, there's just no reason to be eating out. Even meeting clients can take place just fine in an office with a good coffee machine (that's what my well-remunerated, business-man husband does).

    Replies: @Jack D, @slumber_j, @AnotherDad

    You’re right about a lot of that, although I’d say there are some things worth eating at a restaurant. I’m not deep-frying stuff at home, for example: I know one can, but I don’t want to, and the fat gets expensive if you’re not frying a ton.

    Or take Thai food or whatever: a lot of ethnic food is just gonna be better when it’s cooked by people who know what they’re doing. Etc.

    […]avoid that bloated feeling that comes from cleaning a plate you paid too much for.

    My late father once offered his insight that people who feel compelled to finish every bite misunderstand what they’re buying at a restaurant. You’re not buying the food but the experience–which entails an option on the food.

  105. @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Henry Ford understood that by paying decent wages to the people who built his cars, he was creating a class of customers for his product and other American products.
     
    This was not his original intention, just an unintended consequence of the high wages that he was forced to pay due to labor market conditions (and the economies of scale (which he created) that made his cars cheap enough for his own employees to buy).

    More specifically, he was plagued by extremely high turnover at what was then the prevailing wage and by paying significantly more, he could reduce turnover and skim the cream of the crop of industrial workers who would be the most productive. It was a good business move and had nothing to do with altruism. If he could have had low turnover and a quality workforce for $2 a day he would have stayed with that, but he couldn't so he paid more. It was also a coincidence that his business was building really cheap cars - if his product was luxury cars or planes, etc. it would not have occurred to anyone that the wages had to be high enough to enable the workers to buy the factory's products.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-story-of-henry-fords-5-a-day-wages-its-not-what-you-think/#23b1102766d2

    BTW, $5 day is equivalent to around $15/hr in 2018 $ - it seems like that is a sort of equilibrium industrial wage in America, briefly exceeded only in brief golden ages.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @notanon

    That $5 a day Ford announced in January 1914 would be $126 a day now, or 15.75 per hour in our eight hour days. $31,500 per year by our standards of full-time employment. However, you got your figures from the CPI, just as I did. Those are very lowball. It would be higher today if our government inflation statistics were honest. Such things are not simple, linear comparison, either. That kind of daily wage was a revelation for Americans at that time. You can’t simply extrapolate what it would mean to us now. All you have to do is look at the attention it got (which is why we even know and are talking about it) to understand what it meant to American labor.

    Technically, my statement did not assume anything about Ford’s intentions, only that Henry understood what that wage would do for his employees and their purchasing power. Did I say he wanted to pay it? No, Jack, I did not.

    You have just proven my TRUE point: Cheap labor is bad. Well paid labor is good. Ford created well paid labor.

    Ford DID want to produce affordable cars, and he endured terrible resistance and overcame roadblocks from the elite of his time, those guys who knew so much better than Henry about the business. You would know the type: They had all kinds of know-it-all reasons why Ford’s plan would be a bad thing — for them.

    Ford began personal, affordable automotive transportation and revolutionized its production, in the process helping to create the American standard of living and freedom that became the envy of the world — no matter what you or his opponents might ever have to say about it.

    Thanks, though, for yet another lecture that really doesn’t change the point I was making.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk

    C'mon you are splitting hairs here. 1st of all , you haven't really provided any support for your claim that Henry Ford UNDERSTOOD what high wages would do for his employees. But more importantly, if that understanding was not his primary (or even part of his) motivation (which it wasn't, as I think you admit), then it was irrelevant to his actions. Generally speaking American industrialists, past and present, don't give a damn what the results of their actions (good or bad) will be for their workers (or anyone else) so long as they bring more money to their bottom line and Ford was no different. If Ford had figured out at the time that he could CUT wages in half and increase his profits by doing that, that is what he would have done.

    The billionaire model (which I frankly don't understand) is that you make as much money as possible by screwing as many people (workers, competitors, customers, suppliers, investors, etc.) as possible and then (since there is no earthly way of spending billions of $ on yourself) you have to give most of it away anyway.

    Replies: @MarkinLA, @notanon

  106. @Jack D
    @Cloudbuster

    Old cars are the same.

    I sometime go hiking to the west of Philly, in the zone where the Philly suburbs transition to rural areas (the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what's left is West Virginia). Somewhere in there, there is an invisible boundary - to the east of that boundary, when you pass people on the trail they don't say anything to you, to the west of it you have to greet everyone you pass. To the east, the yards are neatly manicured and to the west, every house has an old car up on blocks in the back yard.

    Replies: @Corn

    “(the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what’s left is West Virginia).”

    Lol. I think it was James Carville who said “Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in the middle.”

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Corn



    “(the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what’s left is West Virginia).”
     
    Lol. I think it was James Carville who said “Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in the middle.”
     
    Carville's quip is just stupid. Alabama is 25% black. Pennsylvannia is less than half that--at or a tick below the national average. And between the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh metros it's going to be in the low single digits.

    But even the old joke Jack is referencing--while it has some truthiness--isn't really spot on. Pennsylvannia has a very significant German ("Pennsylvannia Dutch") ancestry--like Eisenhower's family--relatively more concentrated between the metros. While Philadelphia was an entry point for many Scots-Irish, most either headed South on the Great Wagon Road (and later West) or headed West in Pennsylvannia and later on into Ohio and the Midwest. Even rural Pennsylvannia does not have the same ethnic composition as West Virginia.

    Not to dismiss West Virginia, but outside-Philly-PA actually seems like a pretty reasonable sort of Whitetopia option for young folks starting up. Of course--although lower than most--they could really do without the income tax. (State income tax--that's just ridiculous.)

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @Anon87
    @Corn

    I thought it was called Pennsyltucky

  107. Me wonders what these towns will do when the robotic butchers take over? https://www.nanalyze.com/2017/04/robot-butchers/

  108. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Twinkie

    Point being, $50 an hr aren't what blue collar professions pay.

    $50 an hr in 2018 = ca.$105 per yr. Sorry, but that IS definitely STEM, and definitely white collar. Very, very few blue collar jobs pay over $100k annually. Plumbing, perhaps some electricians, but for the most part that's essentially it. Blue Collars don't gross $100k annually. Otherwise, they'd have fewer of the social problems analyzed by Charles Murray in Coming Apart: The State of White America from 1960-2010.

    What fully isn't understood is why Charles Murray did not publicly come out in favor of Donald Trump's 2016 campaign platform. To be intellectually consistent with what he has written regarding the white lower classes, depressing wages, etc., he would have done so.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Twinkie

    His son would have disowned him.

  109. @inertial
    @Cagey Beast

    This view of America is common all over the Old World, especially Europe. "We took America from the Indians and now it's ours."

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @MBlanc46

    That may be true now; it may be the general consensus in Europe that America is “stolen land” and therefore open to anyone. That is pretty much what Hollywood and official America has been increasingly saying for the last fifty years.

  110. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D

    That $5 a day Ford announced in January 1914 would be $126 a day now, or 15.75 per hour in our eight hour days. $31,500 per year by our standards of full-time employment. However, you got your figures from the CPI, just as I did. Those are very lowball. It would be higher today if our government inflation statistics were honest. Such things are not simple, linear comparison, either. That kind of daily wage was a revelation for Americans at that time. You can't simply extrapolate what it would mean to us now. All you have to do is look at the attention it got (which is why we even know and are talking about it) to understand what it meant to American labor.

    Technically, my statement did not assume anything about Ford's intentions, only that Henry understood what that wage would do for his employees and their purchasing power. Did I say he wanted to pay it? No, Jack, I did not.

    You have just proven my TRUE point: Cheap labor is bad. Well paid labor is good. Ford created well paid labor.

    Ford DID want to produce affordable cars, and he endured terrible resistance and overcame roadblocks from the elite of his time, those guys who knew so much better than Henry about the business. You would know the type: They had all kinds of know-it-all reasons why Ford's plan would be a bad thing -- for them.

    Ford began personal, affordable automotive transportation and revolutionized its production, in the process helping to create the American standard of living and freedom that became the envy of the world -- no matter what you or his opponents might ever have to say about it.

    Thanks, though, for yet another lecture that really doesn't change the point I was making.

    Replies: @Jack D

    C’mon you are splitting hairs here. 1st of all , you haven’t really provided any support for your claim that Henry Ford UNDERSTOOD what high wages would do for his employees. But more importantly, if that understanding was not his primary (or even part of his) motivation (which it wasn’t, as I think you admit), then it was irrelevant to his actions. Generally speaking American industrialists, past and present, don’t give a damn what the results of their actions (good or bad) will be for their workers (or anyone else) so long as they bring more money to their bottom line and Ford was no different. If Ford had figured out at the time that he could CUT wages in half and increase his profits by doing that, that is what he would have done.

    The billionaire model (which I frankly don’t understand) is that you make as much money as possible by screwing as many people (workers, competitors, customers, suppliers, investors, etc.) as possible and then (since there is no earthly way of spending billions of $ on yourself) you have to give most of it away anyway.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @Jack D

    you have to give most of it away anyway

    It is never given away. It is put into tax free foundations that you and your descendants have complete control over to do everything you can to enhance the ability to grow the money kept by the family. An example was when one of Gates charities "donated" virtually worthless software to schools.


    This way you get to control money that would have been lost to taxes and spent by the government.

    , @notanon
    @Jack D


    Generally speaking American industrialists, past and present, don’t give a damn what the results of their actions (good or bad) will be for their workers (or anyone else) so long as they bring more money to their bottom line and Ford was no different.
     
    you're wrong

    corporations had to be forced into off-shoring by greedy sociopaths using changes to the law on hostile takeovers combined with junk bonds and getting rid of tariffs (which are vital if you want to create a middle class economy)

    that pack of greedy sociopaths betrayed the rest of their fellow citizens
  111. @JMcG
    @Anonymous

    Yep. My buddy just paid one of those illegals you see hanging around Home Depot parking lots 300.00 to tape and spackle the drywall he had installed himself. It took the guy 5 hours and my friend supplied all the materials.
    Welcome to a world where illegal aliens make 60.00 an hour.

    Replies: @Jack D, @notanon

    I think people here are confusing “wholesale” with “retail” – there is one price you pay a landscaping contractor for a guy to cut your lawn and there is a different (much lower) # which represents the amount the guy cutting the lawn takes home. You are buying labor retail and the landscaping contractor buys it wholesale for a lower price. Even if you try to cut out the middleman you have to pay a more or less retail price anyway.

  112. @anony-mouse
    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you'd have to become a vegetarian.

    Replies: @Whiskey, @Achmed E. Newman, @Anonymous, @Lot, @ben tillman, @Alden, @Ibound1, @AnotherDad, @Frank the Prof

    Selling your country for cheaper bacon and sausage? America was worth more to me than that.

  113. @TG
    Karl Marx got many things wrong, but he got one big thing right. The history of civilization really is about class war.

    For the rich as a class, it's all about cheap labor. Without cheap labor, not only would the profits of the rich decline, but the rich as a class would wither away. With expensive labor, the only rich people would be those with high-level managerial and talent and energy.

    Why do you think that the plantation owners in the ante-bellum American South fought a bloody war to preserve slavery? Because without slavery, the plantation system would have been impossible. And why have Northern elites fought to long and hard to open the borders to mass immigration? Because it creates poverty for the many and riches for the few.

    Cheap Labor Uber Alles!

    Replies: @notanon

    cheap labor causes economic stagnation – unfortunately greedy sociopaths are too greedy and sociopathic to understand this

  114. @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Henry Ford understood that by paying decent wages to the people who built his cars, he was creating a class of customers for his product and other American products.
     
    This was not his original intention, just an unintended consequence of the high wages that he was forced to pay due to labor market conditions (and the economies of scale (which he created) that made his cars cheap enough for his own employees to buy).

    More specifically, he was plagued by extremely high turnover at what was then the prevailing wage and by paying significantly more, he could reduce turnover and skim the cream of the crop of industrial workers who would be the most productive. It was a good business move and had nothing to do with altruism. If he could have had low turnover and a quality workforce for $2 a day he would have stayed with that, but he couldn't so he paid more. It was also a coincidence that his business was building really cheap cars - if his product was luxury cars or planes, etc. it would not have occurred to anyone that the wages had to be high enough to enable the workers to buy the factory's products.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-story-of-henry-fords-5-a-day-wages-its-not-what-you-think/#23b1102766d2

    BTW, $5 day is equivalent to around $15/hr in 2018 $ - it seems like that is a sort of equilibrium industrial wage in America, briefly exceeded only in brief golden ages.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @notanon

    This was not his original intention,

    right – the clear benefit of a middle class economy – maximum prosperity via optimal velocity of money – was discovered by accident. – it’s just a shame the greedy sociopaths were too greedy to leave it be else we’d have flying cars as predicted.

  115. @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk

    C'mon you are splitting hairs here. 1st of all , you haven't really provided any support for your claim that Henry Ford UNDERSTOOD what high wages would do for his employees. But more importantly, if that understanding was not his primary (or even part of his) motivation (which it wasn't, as I think you admit), then it was irrelevant to his actions. Generally speaking American industrialists, past and present, don't give a damn what the results of their actions (good or bad) will be for their workers (or anyone else) so long as they bring more money to their bottom line and Ford was no different. If Ford had figured out at the time that he could CUT wages in half and increase his profits by doing that, that is what he would have done.

    The billionaire model (which I frankly don't understand) is that you make as much money as possible by screwing as many people (workers, competitors, customers, suppliers, investors, etc.) as possible and then (since there is no earthly way of spending billions of $ on yourself) you have to give most of it away anyway.

    Replies: @MarkinLA, @notanon

    you have to give most of it away anyway

    It is never given away. It is put into tax free foundations that you and your descendants have complete control over to do everything you can to enhance the ability to grow the money kept by the family. An example was when one of Gates charities “donated” virtually worthless software to schools.

    This way you get to control money that would have been lost to taxes and spent by the government.

  116. @Cloudbuster
    @Jack D

    Old boats decaying in yards has been a feature of rural locations with nearby water forever, as far as I know.

    The thing with boats is, they seem like a great idea. But then you buy one and after a couple outings the shine wears off and it becomes a chore and only a really small percentage are of the type who continue to think "Wow! This is something I want to do every weekend!"

    A large percentage are of the type, "I keep meaning to take that boat out, but, you know, other stuff always gets in the way...."

    Replies: @Jack D, @Johann Ricke, @Coburn

    A large percentage are of the type, “I keep meaning to take that boat out, but, you know, other stuff always gets in the way….”

    A colleague of mine had a sailboat and a slip, and went out on the water every weekend. He joked that for the owner of a boat, his happiest moments are when he first buys the boat and when he finally sells it.

    • Replies: @Anon87
    @Johann Ricke

    Bill Burr has a quick set on boats on Seinfeld's Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee. You want to be the friend of a guy who owns a boat, not actually own one. I think the same theory applies to inground pools.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  117. @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk

    C'mon you are splitting hairs here. 1st of all , you haven't really provided any support for your claim that Henry Ford UNDERSTOOD what high wages would do for his employees. But more importantly, if that understanding was not his primary (or even part of his) motivation (which it wasn't, as I think you admit), then it was irrelevant to his actions. Generally speaking American industrialists, past and present, don't give a damn what the results of their actions (good or bad) will be for their workers (or anyone else) so long as they bring more money to their bottom line and Ford was no different. If Ford had figured out at the time that he could CUT wages in half and increase his profits by doing that, that is what he would have done.

    The billionaire model (which I frankly don't understand) is that you make as much money as possible by screwing as many people (workers, competitors, customers, suppliers, investors, etc.) as possible and then (since there is no earthly way of spending billions of $ on yourself) you have to give most of it away anyway.

    Replies: @MarkinLA, @notanon

    Generally speaking American industrialists, past and present, don’t give a damn what the results of their actions (good or bad) will be for their workers (or anyone else) so long as they bring more money to their bottom line and Ford was no different.

    you’re wrong

    corporations had to be forced into off-shoring by greedy sociopaths using changes to the law on hostile takeovers combined with junk bonds and getting rid of tariffs (which are vital if you want to create a middle class economy)

    that pack of greedy sociopaths betrayed the rest of their fellow citizens

  118. @JMcG
    @Anonymous

    Yep. My buddy just paid one of those illegals you see hanging around Home Depot parking lots 300.00 to tape and spackle the drywall he had installed himself. It took the guy 5 hours and my friend supplied all the materials.
    Welcome to a world where illegal aliens make 60.00 an hour.

    Replies: @Jack D, @notanon

    Welcome to a world where illegal aliens make 60.00 an hour.

    and how many hours in an average week would he make that

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @notanon

    More than you might think provided the local economy is not completely in the toilet--think McDowell County, WV.

    I know a few who have managed to buy a $125, 000 house with all cash in a small city in NC after working 10 to 12 years in independent construction trades dealing only with homeowners.

  119. @Twinkie
    @Anon


    I think that the assumption here is not “We need more immigrants” but “We need more illegal aliens.”
     
    You got that right. You don't see a stream of Microsoft Indians and Chinese real estate investors abandoning Bellevue-Redmond or Plano to settle in Iowa.

    No, what they want is the El Salvador-on-the-Prairie to erase that Denmark-on-the Prairie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo3mGCZdvB0

    Replies: @Anon

    There’s place you can live with no Salvadorians and be surrounded by your co-ethnics . . .

    안녕히 계세요, 문을 내놓을 때 엉덩이를 치지 마세요

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Anon


    There’s place you can live with no Salvadorians and be surrounded by your co-ethnics . . .
     
    You must have me confused with someone else. If I wanted to live “surrounded by [my] co-ethnics,” I wouldn’t have married my wife. But that doesn’t mean I want to be surrounded by Salvadorans.
  120. @Jack D

    Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.
     
    Actual statistics would be nicer than Lagertha's anecdotes, charming as they are.

    Also, I take your large point (i.e. the meat packer in question (and many like him although again some sort of educated estimate of how may people are in that boat and how much immigration has affected wages would have been nice) now makes 70% less than he used to, thanks to all of the amigos now working in the plant) , but hobbies like boating, golf, tennis, etc. go in and out of fashion.

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can't afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too - I have no idea.

    Replies: @Lot, @Moral Stone, @Twinkie, @Another Canadian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Cloudbuster, @AnotherDad, @Jim bob Lassiter, @MEH 0910

    Recreation has fashions.

    But the plain fact remains: labor is market commodity too. Immigrants reduce wages. (It’s not complicated. In fact the reduction in wages is precisely what creates the “economic value” that immigrant cheerleaders are cheering about.)

    There’s never any need for immigration. It’s proponets basically have one of three agendas:
    — cheap labor
    — cheap votes (create more political dependents)
    — hatred of the existing population and desire to break it up and/or replace it.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @AnotherDad


    There’s never any need for immigration.
     
    Chief Powhatan agrees with you.
  121. @anony-mouse
    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you'd have to become a vegetarian.

    Replies: @Whiskey, @Achmed E. Newman, @Anonymous, @Lot, @ben tillman, @Alden, @Ibound1, @AnotherDad, @Frank the Prof

    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you’d have to become a vegetarian.

    Your meat might cost–generously–20% more with a decently paid native workforce.

    On the other hand, the nation would be 20% smaller, your house–in any coastal region–would cost 50% less, to be in a neighborhood with “good schools”, your taxes would be lower, your roads less crowded, your kids future brighter …

  122. @prusmc
    @unit472

    I believe the turning point was in 1990 or 1991 after a long and bitter strike at a Hormel pork processing plant in Minnesota. The company vanquished the Union and the wage structure and worker make up went down and away. BTW chicken slaughter is on the way to being very low labor as robots are being phased in. Pork is next because there is not a great difference in Caracas size. Beef processing automation is hampered by lack of size standardized raw material.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Roy Beck wrote that even the union had to admit the company’s hand was forced by its competitors’ using immigrant, sometimes illegal, labor.

  123. @stillCARealist
    @Alden

    I rarely eat in restaurants myself, but not because of immigrants. Restaurants are fattening, expensive, and often the food isn't that great.

    If you duplicate a pricey meal at home, with fine wine and a choice cut of meat, you can drink as much as you want, save tons of money, and avoid that bloated feeling that comes from cleaning a plate you paid too much for. Trifecta.

    Unless you're traveling, there's just no reason to be eating out. Even meeting clients can take place just fine in an office with a good coffee machine (that's what my well-remunerated, business-man husband does).

    Replies: @Jack D, @slumber_j, @AnotherDad

    I rarely eat in restaurants myself, but not because of immigrants. Restaurants are fattening, expensive, and often the food isn’t that great.

    Agree. I think the whole restaurant thing is ridiculous. Ridiculous in the amount of money Americans blow on them.

    The experience is just better at home. I can eat what I want. It’s way more comfortable. I get up when I want and roam back into the kitchen if I want to try something else, or something more. The drinks are way cheaper. The ambiance is way, way better. The conversation with your family, friends, neighbors much easier (less noise) and more relaxed. And no pressure to get the heck outta there. If the evening–or even afternoon–is pleasurable and fun, it can linger as long as folks like.

    Oh, and on a cool evening i can fire up the fire pit (PNW) or on a hot day jump in the pool (Florida).

    It’s a knockout.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @AnotherDad

    Humorous comment. Eating at home is better, you control the horizontal and the vertical. (The Outer Limits (1963 TV series) The whole foodie and restaurant thing is absurd and absurdly over rated. There are three cheap and honest Chinese buffets where I live. I like to pick out exactly what I want to eat and paying attention to the amount of grease in it. So I end up eating on the healthy side and mostly fish and seafood. For 10 dollars. Why blow large money at phony fancy restaurants where waiters kiss yr ass unless it is a must do social commitment. The Chinese girls (young ladies) buffet waitresses in my area are cute and no kiss ass.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @anon

    , @MBlanc46
    @AnotherDad

    Unfortunately, at home I mostly have to eat my own cooking.

  124. @Cloudbuster
    @Jack D

    Old boats decaying in yards has been a feature of rural locations with nearby water forever, as far as I know.

    The thing with boats is, they seem like a great idea. But then you buy one and after a couple outings the shine wears off and it becomes a chore and only a really small percentage are of the type who continue to think "Wow! This is something I want to do every weekend!"

    A large percentage are of the type, "I keep meaning to take that boat out, but, you know, other stuff always gets in the way...."

    Replies: @Jack D, @Johann Ricke, @Coburn

    The second happiest day in a man’s life is the day he buys a boat.
    The happiest day in a man’s life is the day he sells the boat.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Coburn

    “If it flies, floats or f***s, it’s cheaper to rent”.

    The Ten Words of Capitalism!

  125. @dfordoom
    @Polynikes


    I think republicans are the ones being stupid and naïve. The Democrats know exactly what they’re doing: importing votes.
     
    The Republicans are not stupid and naïve. They know what they're doing: importing cheap docile non-unionised labour to keep their billionaire donors happy.

    In a democracy you should never ascribe to stupidity anything that can be explained by treachery and malice.

    Replies: @Clyde

    In a democracy you should never ascribe to stupidity anything that can be explained by treachery and malice.

    Agree but at least the treachery and malice of the past was not nation and culture busting via bringing in multitudes of poor incompatible foreigners. I like your little saying and how it reverses the usual. And you are correct for the way our alleged Democracy works these days. Just look at the treachery and malice behind the attempted lynching of Trump and those who have gotten close to him.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Clyde


    I like your little saying and how it reverses the usual. And you are correct for the way our alleged Democracy works these days.
     
    I think I've actually discovered something important. Democracy has its own version of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Second Law tells us that entropy always increases. Democracy has its own version of entropy.

    In a democracy corruption will always increase. Treachery and malice will always increase. The few good men will be driven out by the bad. The efficient will be driven out by the tame time-servers. The honest will be driven out by the dishonest. The poor liars will be driven out by the expert liars.

    A democratic system that starts out with a mix of the competent and incompetent, of idealists and cynics, of honest men and crooks, will eventually become a system composed entirely of incompetents and crooks. It's just the nature of democracy. It incorporates its own self-destruct mechanism.

    I suppose I should call it Dfordoom's First Law.
  126. @Corn
    @Jack D

    “(the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what’s left is West Virginia).”

    Lol. I think it was James Carville who said “Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in the middle.”

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Anon87

    “(the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what’s left is West Virginia).”

    Lol. I think it was James Carville who said “Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in the middle.”

    Carville’s quip is just stupid. Alabama is 25% black. Pennsylvannia is less than half that–at or a tick below the national average. And between the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh metros it’s going to be in the low single digits.

    But even the old joke Jack is referencing–while it has some truthiness–isn’t really spot on. Pennsylvannia has a very significant German (“Pennsylvannia Dutch”) ancestry–like Eisenhower’s family–relatively more concentrated between the metros. While Philadelphia was an entry point for many Scots-Irish, most either headed South on the Great Wagon Road (and later West) or headed West in Pennsylvannia and later on into Ohio and the Midwest. Even rural Pennsylvannia does not have the same ethnic composition as West Virginia.

    Not to dismiss West Virginia, but outside-Philly-PA actually seems like a pretty reasonable sort of Whitetopia option for young folks starting up. Of course–although lower than most–they could really do without the income tax. (State income tax–that’s just ridiculous.)

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @AnotherDad


    State income tax–that’s just ridiculous.
     
    I see you get away with it on both ends, Dad. Good on ya. They are both states (if I'm assuming right) that are good ones to register one's vehicles in too, so that's a toss up. Then you drive down to Portland to buy the big items like computers (at the Best Buy just across the river) with no sales tax and up to Georgia or Alabama for fireworks, if necessary.

    I met James Carville at an airport.

    AEN: "Hey are you still on TV?"

    JC, proudly: "Yeah."

    AEN: "I'm off TV. I'm on the internet now."
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @AnotherDad

    "Even rural Pennsylvania does not have the same ethnic composition as West Virginia."

    Not quite so. Near the WV border, PA's ethnic composition is very similar. Remember, the Appalacian mountains cross into Western PA. The surrounding counties of Allegheny are very similar to West Virginia, especially the further south one goes to the state line and Mason-Dixon. Plenty of Scots-Irish who are on the border. Some even speak with a Southern accent, and yet they've lived their entire lives in PA, so that's clearly WV influence.

    As to the central part of the state, it's true there's a heavy German admixture, including the Amish, who still speak a German dialect (low German).

  127. @AnotherDad
    @stillCARealist


    I rarely eat in restaurants myself, but not because of immigrants. Restaurants are fattening, expensive, and often the food isn’t that great.
     
    Agree. I think the whole restaurant thing is ridiculous. Ridiculous in the amount of money Americans blow on them.

    The experience is just better at home. I can eat what I want. It's way more comfortable. I get up when I want and roam back into the kitchen if I want to try something else, or something more. The drinks are way cheaper. The ambiance is way, way better. The conversation with your family, friends, neighbors much easier (less noise) and more relaxed. And no pressure to get the heck outta there. If the evening--or even afternoon--is pleasurable and fun, it can linger as long as folks like.

    Oh, and on a cool evening i can fire up the fire pit (PNW) or on a hot day jump in the pool (Florida).

    It's a knockout.

    Replies: @Clyde, @MBlanc46

    Humorous comment. Eating at home is better, you control the horizontal and the vertical. (The Outer Limits (1963 TV series) The whole foodie and restaurant thing is absurd and absurdly over rated. There are three cheap and honest Chinese buffets where I live. I like to pick out exactly what I want to eat and paying attention to the amount of grease in it. So I end up eating on the healthy side and mostly fish and seafood. For 10 dollars. Why blow large money at phony fancy restaurants where waiters kiss yr ass unless it is a must do social commitment. The Chinese girls (young ladies) buffet waitresses in my area are cute and no kiss ass.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Clyde

    Clyde, most of those cute China girls (and the guys there too) at the Chinese buffets are illegal aliens, as described in The China to King Buffet Pipeline. Yes, we used to go to some of these places about once or twice a month, but haven't seemed to in a while. That is where I found out the story, along with more info. from a businessman who is friends with an owner of one of the biggest buffets. This illegal immigration is lots more organized than that from south of the border, which I suppose one should expect.

    You know you are a Foodie when you eat at places that have prices in round dollars, without cents. Those are the fancy places, and they expect you to think like "oh, hors-de-vours for 5, steak for 27, a glass of wine for 8, seems pretty reasonable ... what do those numbers mean anyway". You are NOT a Foodie if the entries have numbers for ordering like "give me a # 5, extra brown sauce, and hold the e-coli, por favor."

    Replies: @Clyde

    , @anon
    @Clyde

    The kiss-ass part unfortunately includes constant interruptions of diners in mid-sentence asking how everything is, whether this needs to be taken away or more of that brought. I want to scream, "I came here to talk (to my friends or family) and eat, not answer your incessant questions!"
    It drives me nuts and makes me not want to go to restaurants anymore. This is I think a uniquely U.S. problem, as in Europe and Asia waiters just don't do stuff like that. I guess it's a way of hurrying diners along and providing "good service".

  128. @Clifford Brown
    Art Cullen's outlier politics in the Heartland just might have helped in him securing his Pulitzer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCHCGtprzD8

    Replies: @MBlanc46

    I don’t want those people. I want Iowa to remain Iowa.

  129. @AnotherDad
    @stillCARealist


    I rarely eat in restaurants myself, but not because of immigrants. Restaurants are fattening, expensive, and often the food isn’t that great.
     
    Agree. I think the whole restaurant thing is ridiculous. Ridiculous in the amount of money Americans blow on them.

    The experience is just better at home. I can eat what I want. It's way more comfortable. I get up when I want and roam back into the kitchen if I want to try something else, or something more. The drinks are way cheaper. The ambiance is way, way better. The conversation with your family, friends, neighbors much easier (less noise) and more relaxed. And no pressure to get the heck outta there. If the evening--or even afternoon--is pleasurable and fun, it can linger as long as folks like.

    Oh, and on a cool evening i can fire up the fire pit (PNW) or on a hot day jump in the pool (Florida).

    It's a knockout.

    Replies: @Clyde, @MBlanc46

    Unfortunately, at home I mostly have to eat my own cooking.

  130. @Achmed E. Newman
    @istevefan

    Yes, that's about what I was going to reply to 27 y/o with. BTW, I agree with you (more than usual, haha) on your comment, 27 y/o.

    Americans are trying to keep their standard of living even as wages have not kept up with inflation. They've been borrowing to make up the difference. 7! - year car loans, student loans, credit cards, HELOCS (uh-oh!), etc. What can't go on, won't go on.

    There is not much encouragement for saving, as real interest rates are in the negative. You get, what, 1 % on a long-term CD, while inflation is not the 1-2% that the US BLS says. I'd say 4-5%. That's why people put all the extra money, after those minimum payments on the loans, into their house. It's the only appreciating savings vehicle ... until it isn't. The Chinese do the same, as they've got inflation due to their peg of the Yuan to the Dollar.

    Replies: @MBlanc46

    Why save when savers are punished? Well, to stay out of debt, of course, but a lot of folks don’t see it that way.

  131. @Jack D

    Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.
     
    Actual statistics would be nicer than Lagertha's anecdotes, charming as they are.

    Also, I take your large point (i.e. the meat packer in question (and many like him although again some sort of educated estimate of how may people are in that boat and how much immigration has affected wages would have been nice) now makes 70% less than he used to, thanks to all of the amigos now working in the plant) , but hobbies like boating, golf, tennis, etc. go in and out of fashion.

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can't afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too - I have no idea.

    Replies: @Lot, @Moral Stone, @Twinkie, @Another Canadian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Cloudbuster, @AnotherDad, @Jim bob Lassiter, @MEH 0910

    When I was 16 in 1970 and still at home and in high school I had a part time job when school was in session and I worked full time during summer in retail paying about $1.00 an hour. With that, I could take flight instruction in a Cessna 150 for 18.00 and hour and after soloing could rent same plane for 13.00 an hour as well as a J-3 Cub for 10.00 an hour. By the time I went to college I had 40 solo hours logged with a student license and another 40 on an expired student license. College and rapidly accelerating costs of sport aviation precluded further dalliances as a dilettante flyboy.

    All of that would be impossible today for the same 16 y/o boy.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Jim bob Lassiter

    Aviation is a particularly bad example because of the exponential growth in legal risk. A Piper Cub was $1,000 in 1938 ($18K in current dollars). A Cirrus SR20 is $400K. I'd say $40K of that is actually for the airplane (say that it is twice as good as a Cub) and the other $360K is for various legal (product liability/regulatory compliance) costs in our super litigious society. Small planes are particularly risky because they kill high income individuals who merit big wrongful death awards and the planes fly for decades. You could sell a plane for $3,000 in 1950 and get sued for $3,000,000 in 1980 because of a "flaw" in the original construction. Until they passed a law that provided some relief, the lawyers had completely killed the general aviation business in the US.

    Replies: @Corn

  132. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Had his wages kept up with inflation, he would be earning about $47 an hour."

    According to inflation calculator, $16 an hr back in 1980 would come to exactly $51.43 in 2018. https://www.saving.org/inflation/inflation.php?amount=16

    $51.43 an hr. does sound like a lot, doesn't it? I mean, what kind of work today can one earn over 50 bucks per hr? That's like a white collar professional wage, right?

    There's no way the billionaire donors/conagra executives want to pay native born Americans that kind of inflation-adjusted hourly wage when they can pay the exact same wage they paid nearly forty years ago.

    Wonder whatever happened to the meat packing unions? Seems like now's the time the native born workers would need them to fight for their interests.

    Until then, might as well just let the pork rot in the slaughterhouse.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @MBlanc46

    I thought of a reply to your last statement, but prudence leads me to keep it to myself. Who knows what law enforcement agencies might be monitoring iSteve?

  133. @AnotherDad
    @Jack D

    Recreation has fashions.

    But the plain fact remains: labor is market commodity too. Immigrants reduce wages. (It's not complicated. In fact the reduction in wages is precisely what creates the "economic value" that immigrant cheerleaders are cheering about.)

    There's never any need for immigration. It's proponets basically have one of three agendas:
    -- cheap labor
    -- cheap votes (create more political dependents)
    -- hatred of the existing population and desire to break it up and/or replace it.

    Replies: @Jack D

    There’s never any need for immigration.

    Chief Powhatan agrees with you.

  134. @notanon
    @JMcG


    Welcome to a world where illegal aliens make 60.00 an hour.
     
    and how many hours in an average week would he make that

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter

    More than you might think provided the local economy is not completely in the toilet–think McDowell County, WV.

    I know a few who have managed to buy a $125, 000 house with all cash in a small city in NC after working 10 to 12 years in independent construction trades dealing only with homeowners.

  135. @inertial
    @Cagey Beast

    This view of America is common all over the Old World, especially Europe. "We took America from the Indians and now it's ours."

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @MBlanc46

    We stole it fair and square. It’s ours.

  136. @Jim bob Lassiter
    @Jack D

    When I was 16 in 1970 and still at home and in high school I had a part time job when school was in session and I worked full time during summer in retail paying about $1.00 an hour. With that, I could take flight instruction in a Cessna 150 for 18.00 and hour and after soloing could rent same plane for 13.00 an hour as well as a J-3 Cub for 10.00 an hour. By the time I went to college I had 40 solo hours logged with a student license and another 40 on an expired student license. College and rapidly accelerating costs of sport aviation precluded further dalliances as a dilettante flyboy.

    All of that would be impossible today for the same 16 y/o boy.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Aviation is a particularly bad example because of the exponential growth in legal risk. A Piper Cub was $1,000 in 1938 ($18K in current dollars). A Cirrus SR20 is $400K. I’d say $40K of that is actually for the airplane (say that it is twice as good as a Cub) and the other $360K is for various legal (product liability/regulatory compliance) costs in our super litigious society. Small planes are particularly risky because they kill high income individuals who merit big wrongful death awards and the planes fly for decades. You could sell a plane for $3,000 in 1950 and get sued for $3,000,000 in 1980 because of a “flaw” in the original construction. Until they passed a law that provided some relief, the lawyers had completely killed the general aviation business in the US.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Corn
    @Jack D

    Thanks for that explanation. My uncle, a bachelor with just a high school education, obtained his private pilot license and purchased a Cessna 150 or 172 back in the 1970s. He was just a forklift operator at a brewery. Unthinkable a man in his position today would be flying.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter

  137. @Corn
    @Jack D

    “(the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what’s left is West Virginia).”

    Lol. I think it was James Carville who said “Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in the middle.”

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Anon87

    I thought it was called Pennsyltucky

  138. @Johann Ricke
    @Cloudbuster


    A large percentage are of the type, “I keep meaning to take that boat out, but, you know, other stuff always gets in the way….”
     
    A colleague of mine had a sailboat and a slip, and went out on the water every weekend. He joked that for the owner of a boat, his happiest moments are when he first buys the boat and when he finally sells it.

    Replies: @Anon87

    Bill Burr has a quick set on boats on Seinfeld’s Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee. You want to be the friend of a guy who owns a boat, not actually own one. I think the same theory applies to inground pools.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Anon87

    The best boats to sail are called OPBs, Other People's Boats. Owners of sail boats in particular appreciate help operating them, so you can do a lot of sailing just by accepting invitations to be on the "crew."

    Another saying is that a boat is a hole in the water you throw money into.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Ray Huffman

  139. @Jack D
    @Jim bob Lassiter

    Aviation is a particularly bad example because of the exponential growth in legal risk. A Piper Cub was $1,000 in 1938 ($18K in current dollars). A Cirrus SR20 is $400K. I'd say $40K of that is actually for the airplane (say that it is twice as good as a Cub) and the other $360K is for various legal (product liability/regulatory compliance) costs in our super litigious society. Small planes are particularly risky because they kill high income individuals who merit big wrongful death awards and the planes fly for decades. You could sell a plane for $3,000 in 1950 and get sued for $3,000,000 in 1980 because of a "flaw" in the original construction. Until they passed a law that provided some relief, the lawyers had completely killed the general aviation business in the US.

    Replies: @Corn

    Thanks for that explanation. My uncle, a bachelor with just a high school education, obtained his private pilot license and purchased a Cessna 150 or 172 back in the 1970s. He was just a forklift operator at a brewery. Unthinkable a man in his position today would be flying.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @Corn

    Actually the Feds don't want Joe regulars to be flying around in their Cessna 152's. Maybe that can be chalked up to the country having a population of 325 million people with a huge number of immigrants with, shall we say, different ideas. And Jack is very correct about the trial lawyers.

  140. Someone at The Economist (possibly Will Wilkinson) smeared me some years ago. I never got any help with that from supposed opponents of mass immigration.

    This post is never going to have any impact on those who push the mass immigration agenda. Obviously, whatever the loudest supposed opponents of that agenda are doing does not work: despite their posturing, that agenda keeps rolling along.

    That’s because the opponents tend to follow the same model: enabling entertainers who only use the issue for page views or applause while rejecting smart alternatives that would work. It’s Darwinism in action: the smarter and saner side is winning.

    Those who are smart, sincere, and rational need to change their model, because obviously the current one doesn’t work.

    I expect some smears from those who follow the current model. Please list all the instances where the current model has had any sort of success.

  141. No immigrants it would have gone to the South and there still would be no unions. Wages would be higher more like 18 to 21 per hour but not 45 an hour. Manufacturing goes where wages are the cheapest and in the US that is states like Mississappi not Chicago. I just read a chicken processing plant article in PA where there are lots of Dominican Republicans and Puerto Ricans and a few whites. They were paid about 13.5 per hour which is not that bad for low assemby work sometimes its like 9 to 12 an hour. Unlike Steve, I think that if immigration had been much lower, the worked would have transferred to right to work states and the union wages and overtime would have been reduced. Car manufacturing is an example, the foreign car companies are mainly in the US south.

  142. @anon
    @Moral Stone

    I own a sailboat. Many marinas and boat clubs on the East Coast are quite full of boats, some with waiting lists. The better class the marina or boat club, the more sailboats. The boat sales market is much bigger for power boats, but that's because many folks 1) haven't bothered to learn how to sail; 2) are in a hurry to get to fishing spots; 3) prefer listening to the whine of a high-powered motor or three over nature sounds or conversation; 4) enjoying the pounding of a planing boat over the waves; and most importantly, 5) love creating large wakes that rock everyone else's boat and disrupt their enjoyment on the water.
    You can hear them yelling and cussing each other out over their wakes and getting cut off on Ch. 16.
    Being a power boater, with some exceptions (older folks with diesel tugs, Grand Banks-type cabin cruisers etc.), is essentially an a-hole hobby.
    Marc Rubio is a good example - $80K for a power fishing boat with no cabin or head, but lots of HP. That thing burns a few grand in gas per weekend.
    Having a sailboat means you have virtually unlimited range to get away from the riff-raff, in peace.

    Replies: @Disordered

    As someone who lives in Florida, I agree and might add a #6: social media princesses love pics on (motor) boats. Usually the same girls who cannot live without a legit Michael Kors. And the boats, aren’t usually theirs, for as you mentioned it is an a-hole hobby.

  143. @Anon87
    @Johann Ricke

    Bill Burr has a quick set on boats on Seinfeld's Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee. You want to be the friend of a guy who owns a boat, not actually own one. I think the same theory applies to inground pools.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    The best boats to sail are called OPBs, Other People’s Boats. Owners of sail boats in particular appreciate help operating them, so you can do a lot of sailing just by accepting invitations to be on the “crew.”

    Another saying is that a boat is a hole in the water you throw money into.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Another saying is that a boat is a hole in the water you throw money into.
     
    That saying applies to a lot of houses too.
    , @Ray Huffman
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The best boats to sail are called OPBs, Other People’s Boats.

    Old quip: "If it flies, f**ks or floats, it's cheaper to rent than to buy."

  144. @RickMcHale
    I worked in a pork processing facility in South Philadelphia in the mid 1970's and again in the early 1980's. The pay was excellent and the work was dirty, hard, physically demanding and very boring. The men, however, benefited from a life style which they had earned through enduring the many rigors of a very tough work place. There were nice cars in the parking lot, nice clothing after they changed out of their uniforms, and nice homes in the city or suburbs as they had the financial choice to live in either area.

    In 1984 the company laid off the majority of our work force, putting men on the street for about six months, thus necessitating the union to approach the company, hat in hand, to renegotiate the current union contract.

    I was very fortunate. As one of the few employees with a college degree I was able to make a nice lateral move to a different industry, where I am still employed. The rest of the men were not so lucky. The renegotiated wage was approximately 30 % lower than what the average employee had been making ! A 30 % cut in wage !

    The place reopened, briefly, for 4-5 years and then shut down completely, shifting production to a sister facility in another state. I have no idea what happened to most of my co-workers, some of them functionally illiterate, but I doubt that the results were positive. Good men, put on the street because of the avarice of the wealthy. What a fucking surprise.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Rosie

    I have no idea what happened to most of my co-workers, some of them functionally illiterate, but I doubt that the results were positive. Good men, put on the street because of the avarice of the wealthy. What a fucking surprise.

    I think this is a lot more common than people realize. When you get to know someone who can’t read, it’s amazing how they find ways to get by.

  145. Part of that $47-16 is the return to capital. They’ve invented a machine like the heat pump that extracts heat from the cold outside, with the help of a little energy input, making it colder but inside they enjoy a nice comfy house.

  146. @Clyde
    @dfordoom


    In a democracy you should never ascribe to stupidity anything that can be explained by treachery and malice.
     
    Agree but at least the treachery and malice of the past was not nation and culture busting via bringing in multitudes of poor incompatible foreigners. I like your little saying and how it reverses the usual. And you are correct for the way our alleged Democracy works these days. Just look at the treachery and malice behind the attempted lynching of Trump and those who have gotten close to him.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    I like your little saying and how it reverses the usual. And you are correct for the way our alleged Democracy works these days.

    I think I’ve actually discovered something important. Democracy has its own version of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Second Law tells us that entropy always increases. Democracy has its own version of entropy.

    In a democracy corruption will always increase. Treachery and malice will always increase. The few good men will be driven out by the bad. The efficient will be driven out by the tame time-servers. The honest will be driven out by the dishonest. The poor liars will be driven out by the expert liars.

    A democratic system that starts out with a mix of the competent and incompetent, of idealists and cynics, of honest men and crooks, will eventually become a system composed entirely of incompetents and crooks. It’s just the nature of democracy. It incorporates its own self-destruct mechanism.

    I suppose I should call it Dfordoom’s First Law.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  147. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Anon87

    The best boats to sail are called OPBs, Other People's Boats. Owners of sail boats in particular appreciate help operating them, so you can do a lot of sailing just by accepting invitations to be on the "crew."

    Another saying is that a boat is a hole in the water you throw money into.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Ray Huffman

    Another saying is that a boat is a hole in the water you throw money into.

    That saying applies to a lot of houses too.

  148. @Steve Sailer
    @TheBoom

    Stephen Jay Gould was always complaining about "reification" of things like intelligence, but reification of The Economy is pervasive these days. Perhaps the same rhetoric got transferred from "The War Effort" during WWII to "The Economy." But of course The War Effort had a fairly coherent beneficiary while The Economy is made up of winners and losers.

    It's the usual problem of not being able to keep in mind that two things that are partly correlated are also partly uncorrelated and vice-versa.

    Replies: @JackOH, @Almost Missouri, @Anonymous, @Anon

    What’s wrong with reification?

  149. @Anon
    @Twinkie

    There’s place you can live with no Salvadorians and be surrounded by your co-ethnics . . .

    안녕히 계세요, 문을 내놓을 때 엉덩이를 치지 마세요

    Replies: @Twinkie

    There’s place you can live with no Salvadorians and be surrounded by your co-ethnics . . .

    You must have me confused with someone else. If I wanted to live “surrounded by [my] co-ethnics,” I wouldn’t have married my wife. But that doesn’t mean I want to be surrounded by Salvadorans.

  150. @anon

    Had his wages kept up with inflation, he would be earning about $47 an hour.
     
    $47 an hour in a midwest Iowa town is great wages for a physical labor job. This is a shocking reminder of what decent wages looked like, what the middle class looked like, and just how far down we've come. Yes the work was hard - so what? The grandsons of these workers are either heroin addicts or public college students getting degrees they won't use when they get a job bagging groceries at the organic food coop.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @ScarletNumber

    $47/hr for a job a retard can do seems excessive.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @ScarletNumber

    This snobbish comment from people who view themselves as "educated" is quite common. I remember all the clowns calling in to Limbaugh's show during the UPS strike whining about how "they aren't worth it" as though the caller knew the working conditions at UPS. People pushing boxes around all day (and in split shifts as well) don't deserve any decent wages because the job requires no education.

    Well it requires showing up when your muscles are tired from yesterday's 10 hour shift. It requires working in an icebox and pushing carcasses around and moving large chunks of meat from cutting station to cutting station. It involves working with extremely sharp knives and your only protection is a chain mail glove. I used to know one of these guy and it is hard work that destroys your body. It destroys the tendons in your hands.

    For UPS it required showing up in the morning to sort packages and load trucks, being off for many hours, and then coming back in late afternoon to unload trucks and sort packages. People only did it for the chance to become a driver later, it sure wasn't the lousy 8.50 UPS was paying.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  151. @Steve Sailer
    @unit472

    I worked at a Weed Eater company in 1979.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    literally, “Weed Eater?” We are so old and poisoned. We should have died from our summer jobs in the 70’s for God’s sake, by now !!! hahhaaaa. My kids just learned that I have a very detailed will. My parents always liked spoofing us with “what will we leave you: nothing…or?” People who grew up after the depravity of WW2, knew just how much is at stake. Nothing is for granted. Ok, ok, ok,. they never dissed their descendants who were true-blue.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Lagertha

    A Weed Eater is not poison - it's a string trimmer. A little piece of nylon fishing line spins around and cuts the weeds without a dangerous blade.

    Replies: @Lagertha

  152. @AnotherDad
    @Corn



    “(the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what’s left is West Virginia).”
     
    Lol. I think it was James Carville who said “Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in the middle.”
     
    Carville's quip is just stupid. Alabama is 25% black. Pennsylvannia is less than half that--at or a tick below the national average. And between the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh metros it's going to be in the low single digits.

    But even the old joke Jack is referencing--while it has some truthiness--isn't really spot on. Pennsylvannia has a very significant German ("Pennsylvannia Dutch") ancestry--like Eisenhower's family--relatively more concentrated between the metros. While Philadelphia was an entry point for many Scots-Irish, most either headed South on the Great Wagon Road (and later West) or headed West in Pennsylvannia and later on into Ohio and the Midwest. Even rural Pennsylvannia does not have the same ethnic composition as West Virginia.

    Not to dismiss West Virginia, but outside-Philly-PA actually seems like a pretty reasonable sort of Whitetopia option for young folks starting up. Of course--although lower than most--they could really do without the income tax. (State income tax--that's just ridiculous.)

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    State income tax–that’s just ridiculous.

    I see you get away with it on both ends, Dad. Good on ya. They are both states (if I’m assuming right) that are good ones to register one’s vehicles in too, so that’s a toss up. Then you drive down to Portland to buy the big items like computers (at the Best Buy just across the river) with no sales tax and up to Georgia or Alabama for fireworks, if necessary.

    I met James Carville at an airport.

    AEN: “Hey are you still on TV?”

    JC, proudly: “Yeah.”

    AEN: “I’m off TV. I’m on the internet now.”

  153. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Twinkie

    Point being, $50 an hr aren't what blue collar professions pay.

    $50 an hr in 2018 = ca.$105 per yr. Sorry, but that IS definitely STEM, and definitely white collar. Very, very few blue collar jobs pay over $100k annually. Plumbing, perhaps some electricians, but for the most part that's essentially it. Blue Collars don't gross $100k annually. Otherwise, they'd have fewer of the social problems analyzed by Charles Murray in Coming Apart: The State of White America from 1960-2010.

    What fully isn't understood is why Charles Murray did not publicly come out in favor of Donald Trump's 2016 campaign platform. To be intellectually consistent with what he has written regarding the white lower classes, depressing wages, etc., he would have done so.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Twinkie

    Very, very few blue collar jobs pay over $100k annually. Plumbing, perhaps some electricians, but for the most part that’s essentially it.

    I live in an expensive area where the demand for H/VAC techs and auto mechanics who is capable and can communicate well in English are in short supply.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Twinkie

    So the point is made. For the most part, $100k per yr isn't blue collar by any stretch of the imagination and there are going to be few (in terms of total numbers) of that class who make that kind of money.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  154. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    immigrants are keeping the place alive.

    Alive like a zombie!

  155. @Lagertha
    @Steve Sailer

    literally, "Weed Eater?" We are so old and poisoned. We should have died from our summer jobs in the 70's for God's sake, by now !!! hahhaaaa. My kids just learned that I have a very detailed will. My parents always liked spoofing us with "what will we leave you: nothing...or?" People who grew up after the depravity of WW2, knew just how much is at stake. Nothing is for granted. Ok, ok, ok,. they never dissed their descendants who were true-blue.

    Replies: @Jack D

    A Weed Eater is not poison – it’s a string trimmer. A little piece of nylon fishing line spins around and cuts the weeds without a dangerous blade.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Jack D

    haha...I know, clumsy choice of words. I meant: all the monotonous summer jobs that may have been in facilities that were hot, steamy, poorly ventilated, full of lead paint/asbestos/carcinogens, etc. I painted boat bottoms with oil-based paints, after using sanders and only wearing something like a surgical mask! If I wanted to wear gloves, I had to bring my own. One kid passed out when he unknowingly, used Comet (with bleach) & Fantastic (together- don't try it) to clean chrome and glass!

  156. @Jack D
    @Bill

    I represent a client with a unionized work force that performs a type of skilled mechanical service work in NYC in office buildings, hospitals, commercial buildings, etc. (I don't want to be too specific). Some of their technicians, with overtime, make well in excess of $100K of gross pay.

    Replies: @Bill

    Exactly my point.

  157. @Anonymous
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaJaDx51iw

    Replies: @fnn, @Corvinus

    So when Roy Moore says that Alabama has ALWAYS been a state that has valued individual freedom, liberty, equality, and sexuality, and appreciated the efforts of people to get it, is he directly or indirectly supporting the inclusion of immigrants for our nation, considering that it also lured foreign automobile manufacturers replete with non-union jobs?

    Asking for a friend.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Corvinus

    INdirectly. Obviously he wouldn't be consciously aware of what he's actually promoting. Today there are many southerners who are generalized Americans, who are becoming less and less aware of their Southern heritage. Whereas at one point in time many southerners would've been proud to identify with their confederate ancestors, today that rebellious attitude has dissipated into permissible and trivial things to be proud about (e.g. SEC football rivalries), as opposed to actually giving a damn about whether or not AL and other Southern states become less and less white over time.

    But in Moore's case, its indirect. He's just reading from the Rush Limbaugh plutocratic playbook.

    Notice: The unions didn't put up much of a fuss when their Democratic President signed NAFTA and other trade agreements, did they? Answer: No, not much at all. There was some, but not much (IF you compare it to how they historically behaved vs. unpopular policies that directly affected their members).
    Contrast the docile attitudes the unions have taken over the last quarter century vs. how they acted in the early '60's (e.g. US Steel) when President Kennedy was considering supporting policies that might adversely affect the unions.

    The point being, of course, that the unions of the '60's and '70's had more voting clout and influence within the Democratic party and never would've allowed something like NAFTA to pass without dire political consequences.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  158. @ScarletNumber
    @anon

    $47/hr for a job a retard can do seems excessive.

    Replies: @MarkinLA

    This snobbish comment from people who view themselves as “educated” is quite common. I remember all the clowns calling in to Limbaugh’s show during the UPS strike whining about how “they aren’t worth it” as though the caller knew the working conditions at UPS. People pushing boxes around all day (and in split shifts as well) don’t deserve any decent wages because the job requires no education.

    Well it requires showing up when your muscles are tired from yesterday’s 10 hour shift. It requires working in an icebox and pushing carcasses around and moving large chunks of meat from cutting station to cutting station. It involves working with extremely sharp knives and your only protection is a chain mail glove. I used to know one of these guy and it is hard work that destroys your body. It destroys the tendons in your hands.

    For UPS it required showing up in the morning to sort packages and load trucks, being off for many hours, and then coming back in late afternoon to unload trucks and sort packages. People only did it for the chance to become a driver later, it sure wasn’t the lousy 8.50 UPS was paying.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @MarkinLA

    I would submit there is a large difference between 8.50 and 47. Also, your use of scare quotes is disingenuous, because I'm sure the people you are deriding are educated.

  159. @Clyde
    @AnotherDad

    Humorous comment. Eating at home is better, you control the horizontal and the vertical. (The Outer Limits (1963 TV series) The whole foodie and restaurant thing is absurd and absurdly over rated. There are three cheap and honest Chinese buffets where I live. I like to pick out exactly what I want to eat and paying attention to the amount of grease in it. So I end up eating on the healthy side and mostly fish and seafood. For 10 dollars. Why blow large money at phony fancy restaurants where waiters kiss yr ass unless it is a must do social commitment. The Chinese girls (young ladies) buffet waitresses in my area are cute and no kiss ass.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @anon

    Clyde, most of those cute China girls (and the guys there too) at the Chinese buffets are illegal aliens, as described in The China to King Buffet Pipeline. Yes, we used to go to some of these places about once or twice a month, but haven’t seemed to in a while. That is where I found out the story, along with more info. from a businessman who is friends with an owner of one of the biggest buffets. This illegal immigration is lots more organized than that from south of the border, which I suppose one should expect.

    You know you are a Foodie when you eat at places that have prices in round dollars, without cents. Those are the fancy places, and they expect you to think like “oh, hors-de-vours for 5, steak for 27, a glass of wine for 8, seems pretty reasonable … what do those numbers mean anyway”. You are NOT a Foodie if the entries have numbers for ordering like “give me a # 5, extra brown sauce, and hold the e-coli, por favor.”

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I read your two blog posts at Peak Absurdity. My guess is two million illegal Chinese in America, including Chinese who wrangle their way in here as Thais , Viets, Filipinos. This one is even better. Days before 9 11 2001 there was a Bangladeshi community leader loudmouth in the New York Times. I am pretty sure his photo was there, even online. He was bragging how there were 100,000 illegal Bangladeshis in the NY area most especially in Queens. Near the Chinatown. btw NYC has five China Towns. iirc The original one in Manhattan and two each in Queens and Brooklyn.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  160. @Corvinus
    @Anonymous

    So when Roy Moore says that Alabama has ALWAYS been a state that has valued individual freedom, liberty, equality, and sexuality, and appreciated the efforts of people to get it, is he directly or indirectly supporting the inclusion of immigrants for our nation, considering that it also lured foreign automobile manufacturers replete with non-union jobs?

    Asking for a friend.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    INdirectly. Obviously he wouldn’t be consciously aware of what he’s actually promoting. Today there are many southerners who are generalized Americans, who are becoming less and less aware of their Southern heritage. Whereas at one point in time many southerners would’ve been proud to identify with their confederate ancestors, today that rebellious attitude has dissipated into permissible and trivial things to be proud about (e.g. SEC football rivalries), as opposed to actually giving a damn about whether or not AL and other Southern states become less and less white over time.

    But in Moore’s case, its indirect. He’s just reading from the Rush Limbaugh plutocratic playbook.

    Notice: The unions didn’t put up much of a fuss when their Democratic President signed NAFTA and other trade agreements, did they? Answer: No, not much at all. There was some, but not much (IF you compare it to how they historically behaved vs. unpopular policies that directly affected their members).
    Contrast the docile attitudes the unions have taken over the last quarter century vs. how they acted in the early ’60’s (e.g. US Steel) when President Kennedy was considering supporting policies that might adversely affect the unions.

    The point being, of course, that the unions of the ’60’s and ’70’s had more voting clout and influence within the Democratic party and never would’ve allowed something like NAFTA to pass without dire political consequences.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "INdirectly. Obviously he wouldn’t be consciously aware of what he’s actually promoting."

    My friend says, "Really? Moore is that oblivious? How are you certain?"

    "Today there are many southerners who are generalized Americans, who are becoming less and less aware of their Southern heritage."

    My friend says, "Well, anecdotally speaking, I have a number of friends from the South, and they are acutely aware of their roots."

    "Whereas at one point in time many southerners would’ve been proud to identify with their confederate ancestors..."

    My friend says, "They do identify with their confederate ancestors, just not in the way you want them to. Can they not simply say 'I'm proud of my past, but there were certain things that my ancestors did were other than lawful or moral"?

    "today that rebellious attitude has dissipated into permissible and trivial things to be proud about (e.g. SEC football rivalries)"

    My friend says, "Are you not projecting what YOU believe ought to be important? Could not the fine people here simply not express their heritage in the manner you prescribe?"

    "as opposed to actually giving a damn about whether or not AL and other Southern states become less and less white over time."

    My friend says, "Well, the young people of Alabama grew up in a different time, where such attitudes may not be that important to them. Do they not have the freedom to make their own decisions when it comes to race and culture? Is not possible that they are more focused on people rather than race, given what they know how their ancestors treated certain groups?"

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  161. @AnotherDad
    @Corn



    “(the old joke about PA is that if you take away Philly and Pittsburgh, what’s left is West Virginia).”
     
    Lol. I think it was James Carville who said “Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in the middle.”
     
    Carville's quip is just stupid. Alabama is 25% black. Pennsylvannia is less than half that--at or a tick below the national average. And between the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh metros it's going to be in the low single digits.

    But even the old joke Jack is referencing--while it has some truthiness--isn't really spot on. Pennsylvannia has a very significant German ("Pennsylvannia Dutch") ancestry--like Eisenhower's family--relatively more concentrated between the metros. While Philadelphia was an entry point for many Scots-Irish, most either headed South on the Great Wagon Road (and later West) or headed West in Pennsylvannia and later on into Ohio and the Midwest. Even rural Pennsylvannia does not have the same ethnic composition as West Virginia.

    Not to dismiss West Virginia, but outside-Philly-PA actually seems like a pretty reasonable sort of Whitetopia option for young folks starting up. Of course--although lower than most--they could really do without the income tax. (State income tax--that's just ridiculous.)

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “Even rural Pennsylvania does not have the same ethnic composition as West Virginia.”

    Not quite so. Near the WV border, PA’s ethnic composition is very similar. Remember, the Appalacian mountains cross into Western PA. The surrounding counties of Allegheny are very similar to West Virginia, especially the further south one goes to the state line and Mason-Dixon. Plenty of Scots-Irish who are on the border. Some even speak with a Southern accent, and yet they’ve lived their entire lives in PA, so that’s clearly WV influence.

    As to the central part of the state, it’s true there’s a heavy German admixture, including the Amish, who still speak a German dialect (low German).

  162. @Twinkie
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    Very, very few blue collar jobs pay over $100k annually. Plumbing, perhaps some electricians, but for the most part that’s essentially it.
     
    I live in an expensive area where the demand for H/VAC techs and auto mechanics who is capable and can communicate well in English are in short supply.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    So the point is made. For the most part, $100k per yr isn’t blue collar by any stretch of the imagination and there are going to be few (in terms of total numbers) of that class who make that kind of money.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    For the most part, $100k per yr isn’t blue collar by any stretch of the imagination
     
    It depends on location, skill level, ethnicity (so racist, I know), and type of blue collar work.

    I know my gunsmith makes over $100,000 per annum EASILY.

    As I wrote before, the H/VAC techs who work on my properties and my car mechanics (mostly former military white guys with a couple of Asians) make over $50 per hour. Businesses for whom they work are also much more expensive than some of their competition in my area (that mostly hire Hispanics). But I value being able to have a conversation with them in English and diagnose and solve problems efficiently and properly. I also favor businesses that hire veterans.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  163. @anony-mouse
    Look at the bright side. If he was making $47 you'd have to become a vegetarian.

    Replies: @Whiskey, @Achmed E. Newman, @Anonymous, @Lot, @ben tillman, @Alden, @Ibound1, @AnotherDad, @Frank the Prof

    If he was making $47 you’d have to become a vegetarian

    I checked with an inflation calculator: https://www.officialdata.org/Uncooked-ground-beef/price-inflation/1975
    The price of ground beef has risen about the same rate as inflation. So it seems that savings in labor costs didn’t translate into lower beef prices.

  164. In my Iowa town we dont need a single immigrant. For anything. None. Zero. Zilch.

  165. anon[622] • Disclaimer says:
    @Clyde
    @AnotherDad

    Humorous comment. Eating at home is better, you control the horizontal and the vertical. (The Outer Limits (1963 TV series) The whole foodie and restaurant thing is absurd and absurdly over rated. There are three cheap and honest Chinese buffets where I live. I like to pick out exactly what I want to eat and paying attention to the amount of grease in it. So I end up eating on the healthy side and mostly fish and seafood. For 10 dollars. Why blow large money at phony fancy restaurants where waiters kiss yr ass unless it is a must do social commitment. The Chinese girls (young ladies) buffet waitresses in my area are cute and no kiss ass.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @anon

    The kiss-ass part unfortunately includes constant interruptions of diners in mid-sentence asking how everything is, whether this needs to be taken away or more of that brought. I want to scream, “I came here to talk (to my friends or family) and eat, not answer your incessant questions!”
    It drives me nuts and makes me not want to go to restaurants anymore. This is I think a uniquely U.S. problem, as in Europe and Asia waiters just don’t do stuff like that. I guess it’s a way of hurrying diners along and providing “good service”.

  166. @Charles Pewitt
    I loved it when Trump protected a great American patriot, Joe Arpaio, by granting him free from the attacks of certain horrible elements in the US government.

    I DO NOT support, however, Trumpy's decision to give a get out of jail free card to a disgusting money-grubbing rat who was using cheap labor illegal alien invaders in Iowa at his meatpacking plant.

    Trumpy has to make himself lovable in order to be loved.

    Stop coddling the money-grubbing shysters, Trumpy!

    https://twitter.com/nwarikoo/status/943636560943157248

    Replies: @Buck Turgidson

    Rubashkin is evil and led the crew that descended upon and demolished the small ne Iowa community of Postville. They set up a meat processing plant and imported loads of third worlders for the “cheap” labor, blowing apart the community’s cultural fabric. Hed be cooling his heels in an uncomfortable jail cell forever if it was up to me.

  167. @Corn
    @Jack D

    Thanks for that explanation. My uncle, a bachelor with just a high school education, obtained his private pilot license and purchased a Cessna 150 or 172 back in the 1970s. He was just a forklift operator at a brewery. Unthinkable a man in his position today would be flying.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Actually the Feds don’t want Joe regulars to be flying around in their Cessna 152’s. Maybe that can be chalked up to the country having a population of 325 million people with a huge number of immigrants with, shall we say, different ideas. And Jack is very correct about the trial lawyers.

  168. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Corvinus

    INdirectly. Obviously he wouldn't be consciously aware of what he's actually promoting. Today there are many southerners who are generalized Americans, who are becoming less and less aware of their Southern heritage. Whereas at one point in time many southerners would've been proud to identify with their confederate ancestors, today that rebellious attitude has dissipated into permissible and trivial things to be proud about (e.g. SEC football rivalries), as opposed to actually giving a damn about whether or not AL and other Southern states become less and less white over time.

    But in Moore's case, its indirect. He's just reading from the Rush Limbaugh plutocratic playbook.

    Notice: The unions didn't put up much of a fuss when their Democratic President signed NAFTA and other trade agreements, did they? Answer: No, not much at all. There was some, but not much (IF you compare it to how they historically behaved vs. unpopular policies that directly affected their members).
    Contrast the docile attitudes the unions have taken over the last quarter century vs. how they acted in the early '60's (e.g. US Steel) when President Kennedy was considering supporting policies that might adversely affect the unions.

    The point being, of course, that the unions of the '60's and '70's had more voting clout and influence within the Democratic party and never would've allowed something like NAFTA to pass without dire political consequences.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “INdirectly. Obviously he wouldn’t be consciously aware of what he’s actually promoting.”

    My friend says, “Really? Moore is that oblivious? How are you certain?”

    “Today there are many southerners who are generalized Americans, who are becoming less and less aware of their Southern heritage.”

    My friend says, “Well, anecdotally speaking, I have a number of friends from the South, and they are acutely aware of their roots.”

    “Whereas at one point in time many southerners would’ve been proud to identify with their confederate ancestors…”

    My friend says, “They do identify with their confederate ancestors, just not in the way you want them to. Can they not simply say ‘I’m proud of my past, but there were certain things that my ancestors did were other than lawful or moral”?

    “today that rebellious attitude has dissipated into permissible and trivial things to be proud about (e.g. SEC football rivalries)”

    My friend says, “Are you not projecting what YOU believe ought to be important? Could not the fine people here simply not express their heritage in the manner you prescribe?”

    “as opposed to actually giving a damn about whether or not AL and other Southern states become less and less white over time.”

    My friend says, “Well, the young people of Alabama grew up in a different time, where such attitudes may not be that important to them. Do they not have the freedom to make their own decisions when it comes to race and culture? Is not possible that they are more focused on people rather than race, given what they know how their ancestors treated certain groups?”

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Corvinus

    Come, come now. Perhaps YOU are "your friend."


    "My friend says, “Really? Moore is that oblivious? How are you certain?”

    Show us in Moore's history that would prove it otherwise, and remember, he is a big supporter of the likes of Rush Limbaugh. When was the last time Rush explicitly mentioned racial issues from a pro-white perspective? Answer: At least two and a half decades. He can sometimes dogwhistle the issues, but for the most part, he doesn't rock the boat. As a plutocrat, why would he?

    "My friend says, “Well, anecdotally speaking, I have a number of friends from the South, and they are acutely aware of their roots.”

    And of course, you believe everything "your friend" tells you. Perhaps you should go and play with your friend. What do anecdotes actually prove? Especially if they can be cancelled out from both sides?

    "My friend says, “They do identify with their confederate ancestors,"

    No, they do not, in the sense of the "New South". In a generic implicit, unconscious way, perhaps, but perhaps not.

    "just not in the way you want them to."

    No dog in the race. Could care less, unlike your "friend." Or perhaps your "friend" doesn't care either.


    "Can they not simply say ‘I’m proud of my past, but there were certain things that my ancestors did were other than lawful or moral”?"

    This would appear to be the case, as so many explicit symbols of their past (Confederate statues) are being either torn down or removed from public prominence on government land, etc. If these Southerners did care about preserving their Confederate heritage, then they would make an effort to protect the statues from being removed. Most of the statues being removed are occuring in the South. At one time, these statues were proudly displayed by Southerners, for generations. Now all of a sudden apparently it takes a few people to publicly scream "RACIST! RACIST!" and down the statues go. So, the point being, as time goes on, there is less and less of their past that they are proud of. And, once out of sight, it becomes out of mind. If these southerners were truly proud of their past, then they can easily demonstrate it by....protecting their public monuments from desecration, destruction, removal, etc. What do they have to be ashamed of anyway from that period of time as it relates to the specific Confederate persons who were honored and held up as good examples of Southern heritage by having a statue made in their honor? What exactly are today's Southerners supposed to be ashamed of from that era of their heritage?


    "My friend says, “Are you not projecting what YOU believe ought to be important?"

    So, are you calling Southerners like Paul Kersey a liar for having pointed this out? Shame, shame, shame on you and your "friend". Projecting is often in the eyes of the one asking first. If one turns on the TV for news reports in the South during NCAA season, does one find empty stadiums? Does one find tons of Southerns not watching their TVs tuned to NCAA football? The ratings for the NCAA are a matter of public fact, and are broken down by region of the country. Someone is watching these games.

    “Well, the young people of Alabama grew up in a different time, where such attitudes may not be that important to them."

    Duh. One can ascertain what is important young people. There are polls, research, etc. on their attitudes, tastes, how they vote, etc.


    "Do they not have the freedom to make their own decisions when it comes to race and culture?"

    Who said they didn't have the freedom to do what they want? The point, is that they don't really care about their history, and are slowly forgetting most of it. Those who forget the past are easier to control, and divide.


    "Is not possible that they are more focused on people rather than race,"

    A non-sequitor. Empty slogan.


    "given what they know how their ancestors treated certain groups?”

    What do they know about how their ancestors treated certain groups? Where did they learn this information from? The answer is demonstrating in no small part why they no longer desire to protect the public symbols of their past from desecration, destruction, removal from public prominence. After all, up until quite recently, the South wasn't completely blind to the fact that their ancestors treated certain groups in a certain manner. It wasn't a secret. The awareness of the historical facts didn't change.

    Meanwhile, the other Southerns (non-whites) have remained quite constant and consistent in their demands of removal of Confederate monuments, as well as an increased level of violent crime in the major urban areas. While this isn't unique to the South, some of the nation's highest violent crime rates are found in Southern urban areas. Why is this so? Is it mainly due to whites acting badly? Or is it something else at work?

    Perhaps you should go and play with your "little friend".





    Could not the fine people here simply not express their heritage in the manner you prescribe?”

    Replies: @Corvinus

  169. @MarkinLA
    @ScarletNumber

    This snobbish comment from people who view themselves as "educated" is quite common. I remember all the clowns calling in to Limbaugh's show during the UPS strike whining about how "they aren't worth it" as though the caller knew the working conditions at UPS. People pushing boxes around all day (and in split shifts as well) don't deserve any decent wages because the job requires no education.

    Well it requires showing up when your muscles are tired from yesterday's 10 hour shift. It requires working in an icebox and pushing carcasses around and moving large chunks of meat from cutting station to cutting station. It involves working with extremely sharp knives and your only protection is a chain mail glove. I used to know one of these guy and it is hard work that destroys your body. It destroys the tendons in your hands.

    For UPS it required showing up in the morning to sort packages and load trucks, being off for many hours, and then coming back in late afternoon to unload trucks and sort packages. People only did it for the chance to become a driver later, it sure wasn't the lousy 8.50 UPS was paying.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    I would submit there is a large difference between 8.50 and 47. Also, your use of scare quotes is disingenuous, because I’m sure the people you are deriding are educated.

  170. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Twinkie

    So the point is made. For the most part, $100k per yr isn't blue collar by any stretch of the imagination and there are going to be few (in terms of total numbers) of that class who make that kind of money.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    For the most part, $100k per yr isn’t blue collar by any stretch of the imagination

    It depends on location, skill level, ethnicity (so racist, I know), and type of blue collar work.

    I know my gunsmith makes over $100,000 per annum EASILY.

    As I wrote before, the H/VAC techs who work on my properties and my car mechanics (mostly former military white guys with a couple of Asians) make over $50 per hour. Businesses for whom they work are also much more expensive than some of their competition in my area (that mostly hire Hispanics). But I value being able to have a conversation with them in English and diagnose and solve problems efficiently and properly. I also favor businesses that hire veterans.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Twinkie

    I agree, but as I said, the majority of $100k annual earners aren't going to be from the blue collar classes. You'll most likely find STEM related fields making that kind of sum as opposed to the majority of blue collar workers.

    Of course, as with the blue collars, it appears that illegal/legal/H1-B workers are slowly replacing native born US workers no matter the collar color, which isn't a good thing in the long run. Why pay anyone $100k annually if one can pay far far less for the same work?

  171. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Anon87

    The best boats to sail are called OPBs, Other People's Boats. Owners of sail boats in particular appreciate help operating them, so you can do a lot of sailing just by accepting invitations to be on the "crew."

    Another saying is that a boat is a hole in the water you throw money into.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Ray Huffman

    The best boats to sail are called OPBs, Other People’s Boats.

    Old quip: “If it flies, f**ks or floats, it’s cheaper to rent than to buy.”

  172. @Corvinus
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "INdirectly. Obviously he wouldn’t be consciously aware of what he’s actually promoting."

    My friend says, "Really? Moore is that oblivious? How are you certain?"

    "Today there are many southerners who are generalized Americans, who are becoming less and less aware of their Southern heritage."

    My friend says, "Well, anecdotally speaking, I have a number of friends from the South, and they are acutely aware of their roots."

    "Whereas at one point in time many southerners would’ve been proud to identify with their confederate ancestors..."

    My friend says, "They do identify with their confederate ancestors, just not in the way you want them to. Can they not simply say 'I'm proud of my past, but there were certain things that my ancestors did were other than lawful or moral"?

    "today that rebellious attitude has dissipated into permissible and trivial things to be proud about (e.g. SEC football rivalries)"

    My friend says, "Are you not projecting what YOU believe ought to be important? Could not the fine people here simply not express their heritage in the manner you prescribe?"

    "as opposed to actually giving a damn about whether or not AL and other Southern states become less and less white over time."

    My friend says, "Well, the young people of Alabama grew up in a different time, where such attitudes may not be that important to them. Do they not have the freedom to make their own decisions when it comes to race and culture? Is not possible that they are more focused on people rather than race, given what they know how their ancestors treated certain groups?"

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Come, come now. Perhaps YOU are “your friend.”

    “My friend says, “Really? Moore is that oblivious? How are you certain?”

    Show us in Moore’s history that would prove it otherwise, and remember, he is a big supporter of the likes of Rush Limbaugh. When was the last time Rush explicitly mentioned racial issues from a pro-white perspective? Answer: At least two and a half decades. He can sometimes dogwhistle the issues, but for the most part, he doesn’t rock the boat. As a plutocrat, why would he?

    “My friend says, “Well, anecdotally speaking, I have a number of friends from the South, and they are acutely aware of their roots.”

    And of course, you believe everything “your friend” tells you. Perhaps you should go and play with your friend. What do anecdotes actually prove? Especially if they can be cancelled out from both sides?

    “My friend says, “They do identify with their confederate ancestors,”

    No, they do not, in the sense of the “New South”. In a generic implicit, unconscious way, perhaps, but perhaps not.

    “just not in the way you want them to.”

    No dog in the race. Could care less, unlike your “friend.” Or perhaps your “friend” doesn’t care either.

    “Can they not simply say ‘I’m proud of my past, but there were certain things that my ancestors did were other than lawful or moral”?”

    This would appear to be the case, as so many explicit symbols of their past (Confederate statues) are being either torn down or removed from public prominence on government land, etc. If these Southerners did care about preserving their Confederate heritage, then they would make an effort to protect the statues from being removed. Most of the statues being removed are occuring in the South. At one time, these statues were proudly displayed by Southerners, for generations. Now all of a sudden apparently it takes a few people to publicly scream “RACIST! RACIST!” and down the statues go. So, the point being, as time goes on, there is less and less of their past that they are proud of. And, once out of sight, it becomes out of mind. If these southerners were truly proud of their past, then they can easily demonstrate it by….protecting their public monuments from desecration, destruction, removal, etc. What do they have to be ashamed of anyway from that period of time as it relates to the specific Confederate persons who were honored and held up as good examples of Southern heritage by having a statue made in their honor? What exactly are today’s Southerners supposed to be ashamed of from that era of their heritage?

    “My friend says, “Are you not projecting what YOU believe ought to be important?”

    So, are you calling Southerners like Paul Kersey a liar for having pointed this out? Shame, shame, shame on you and your “friend”. Projecting is often in the eyes of the one asking first. If one turns on the TV for news reports in the South during NCAA season, does one find empty stadiums? Does one find tons of Southerns not watching their TVs tuned to NCAA football? The ratings for the NCAA are a matter of public fact, and are broken down by region of the country. Someone is watching these games.

    “Well, the young people of Alabama grew up in a different time, where such attitudes may not be that important to them.”

    Duh. One can ascertain what is important young people. There are polls, research, etc. on their attitudes, tastes, how they vote, etc.

    “Do they not have the freedom to make their own decisions when it comes to race and culture?”

    Who said they didn’t have the freedom to do what they want? The point, is that they don’t really care about their history, and are slowly forgetting most of it. Those who forget the past are easier to control, and divide.

    “Is not possible that they are more focused on people rather than race,”

    A non-sequitor. Empty slogan.

    “given what they know how their ancestors treated certain groups?”

    What do they know about how their ancestors treated certain groups? Where did they learn this information from? The answer is demonstrating in no small part why they no longer desire to protect the public symbols of their past from desecration, destruction, removal from public prominence. After all, up until quite recently, the South wasn’t completely blind to the fact that their ancestors treated certain groups in a certain manner. It wasn’t a secret. The awareness of the historical facts didn’t change.

    Meanwhile, the other Southerns (non-whites) have remained quite constant and consistent in their demands of removal of Confederate monuments, as well as an increased level of violent crime in the major urban areas. While this isn’t unique to the South, some of the nation’s highest violent crime rates are found in Southern urban areas. Why is this so? Is it mainly due to whites acting badly? Or is it something else at work?

    Perhaps you should go and play with your “little friend”.

    Could not the fine people here simply not express their heritage in the manner you prescribe?”

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "Show us in Moore’s history that would prove it otherwise..."

    My friend says, "Here is Moore's position on immigration (2017)--We must stop the flow of illegal aliens across both our northern and southern borders. Open borders are a threat to our national security and to our economy. We must allow willing states (like Arizona) to protect the health, safety, and welfare of their citizens, and use our own military to protect our border. If a wall is our only option, then we should build it immediately."

    "When was the last time Rush explicitly mentioned racial issues from a pro-white perspective? Answer: At least two and a half decades. He can sometimes dogwhistle the issues, but for the most part, he doesn’t rock the boat. As a plutocrat, why would he?"

    My friend says, "Why is Rush obligated to speak from this "pro-white perspective"? Could it be that he is being vocal from an America First point of view, which does not necessarily emphasize whites over non-whites?"

    "No, they do not, in the sense of the “New South”. In a generic implicit, unconscious way, perhaps, but perhaps not."

    My friend says, "You assume that the 'New South', whatever that entails as you never defined it, mandates current southerners to embrace pro-whiteness, otherwise they are somehow losing their heritage. Which, of course, is not incumbent upon the person to demonstrate this particular stance to be proud of their southern roots".

    "This would appear to be the case, as so many explicit symbols of their past (Confederate statues) are being either torn down or removed from public prominence on government land, etc. If these Southerners did care about preserving their Confederate heritage, then they would make an effort to protect the statues from being removed."

    My friend says, "So it appears you are basing a southerner's love for their past squarely if they support keeping Confederate statues. That is a narrow way of looking at things. Preserving their former ways of life is not dependent upon this action. And each Southern man and woman has the liberty to decide how they want to demonstrate their love for their region, not you. Besides, there are over 700 of these statues still standing proudly."

    "Most of the statues being removed are occuring in the South. At one time, these statues were proudly displayed by Southerners, for generations. Now all of a sudden apparently it takes a few people to publicly scream “RACIST! RACIST!” and down the statues go."

    My friend says, "Of course it's much more than that. A considerable number of these statues were built in the 1950's, 1960's, and early 1970's through public tax money to physically symbolize the South's objection to the end of Jim Crow laws. For those statues built in the aftermath of the Civil War, here are the reasons, as outlined by a historian."

    https://www.sah.org/publications-and-research/sah-blog/sah-blog/2017/09/13/confederate-monuments-and-civic-values-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville

    "If these southerners were truly proud of their past, then they can easily demonstrate it by….protecting their public monuments from desecration, destruction, removal, etc."

    My friend says, "Again, you are exclusively defining as to what "truly" constitutes southern pride. It doesn't work that way."

    "What exactly are today’s Southerners supposed to be ashamed of from that era of their heritage?"

    My friend says, "You are being obtuse here. Allegedly you are an educated man, you can figure out why some Southerners are 'ashamed'".

    "A non-sequitor. Empty slogan."

    My friend says, "How is the statement '“Is not possible that they are more focused on people rather than race' a non sequitur? Do you even know what this fallacy means? And, no, it is not an 'empty slogan' considering that those southerners who are religious put people first rather than race, according to His word."

    "Who said they didn’t have the freedom to do what they want? The point, is that they don’t really care about their history, and are slowly forgetting most of it. Those who forget the past are easier to control, and divide."

    My friend says, "According to YOU, if southerners do not do what you want them to do to show love for their past, then they do not care about their history. But of course they have the freedom to do what they want, so they can still show affection for their heritage in a number of different ways, while opposing certain ideas that their ancestors espoused. It would seem that you are being controlling here, as you are trying to unilaterally impose a strict standard by which southern pride is measured."

    "What do they know about how their ancestors treated certain groups? Where did they learn this information from?"

    My friend says, "History. And a number of southerners, including their ancestors, were actually opposed to the Civil War and segregation laws, much to their credit."

    "After all, up until quite recently, the South wasn’t completely blind to the fact that their ancestors treated certain groups in a certain manner. It wasn’t a secret."

    My friend says, "So how would you characterize this treatment, considering it wasn't a 'secret'"?

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  173. @Twinkie
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    For the most part, $100k per yr isn’t blue collar by any stretch of the imagination
     
    It depends on location, skill level, ethnicity (so racist, I know), and type of blue collar work.

    I know my gunsmith makes over $100,000 per annum EASILY.

    As I wrote before, the H/VAC techs who work on my properties and my car mechanics (mostly former military white guys with a couple of Asians) make over $50 per hour. Businesses for whom they work are also much more expensive than some of their competition in my area (that mostly hire Hispanics). But I value being able to have a conversation with them in English and diagnose and solve problems efficiently and properly. I also favor businesses that hire veterans.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I agree, but as I said, the majority of $100k annual earners aren’t going to be from the blue collar classes. You’ll most likely find STEM related fields making that kind of sum as opposed to the majority of blue collar workers.

    Of course, as with the blue collars, it appears that illegal/legal/H1-B workers are slowly replacing native born US workers no matter the collar color, which isn’t a good thing in the long run. Why pay anyone $100k annually if one can pay far far less for the same work?

  174. @Jack D
    @Lagertha

    A Weed Eater is not poison - it's a string trimmer. A little piece of nylon fishing line spins around and cuts the weeds without a dangerous blade.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    haha…I know, clumsy choice of words. I meant: all the monotonous summer jobs that may have been in facilities that were hot, steamy, poorly ventilated, full of lead paint/asbestos/carcinogens, etc. I painted boat bottoms with oil-based paints, after using sanders and only wearing something like a surgical mask! If I wanted to wear gloves, I had to bring my own. One kid passed out when he unknowingly, used Comet (with bleach) & Fantastic (together- don’t try it) to clean chrome and glass!

  175. Anonymous[867] • Disclaimer says:
    @Coburn
    @Cloudbuster

    The second happiest day in a man's life is the day he buys a boat.
    The happiest day in a man's life is the day he sells the boat.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    “If it flies, floats or f***s, it’s cheaper to rent”.

    The Ten Words of Capitalism!

  176. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Corvinus

    Come, come now. Perhaps YOU are "your friend."


    "My friend says, “Really? Moore is that oblivious? How are you certain?”

    Show us in Moore's history that would prove it otherwise, and remember, he is a big supporter of the likes of Rush Limbaugh. When was the last time Rush explicitly mentioned racial issues from a pro-white perspective? Answer: At least two and a half decades. He can sometimes dogwhistle the issues, but for the most part, he doesn't rock the boat. As a plutocrat, why would he?

    "My friend says, “Well, anecdotally speaking, I have a number of friends from the South, and they are acutely aware of their roots.”

    And of course, you believe everything "your friend" tells you. Perhaps you should go and play with your friend. What do anecdotes actually prove? Especially if they can be cancelled out from both sides?

    "My friend says, “They do identify with their confederate ancestors,"

    No, they do not, in the sense of the "New South". In a generic implicit, unconscious way, perhaps, but perhaps not.

    "just not in the way you want them to."

    No dog in the race. Could care less, unlike your "friend." Or perhaps your "friend" doesn't care either.


    "Can they not simply say ‘I’m proud of my past, but there were certain things that my ancestors did were other than lawful or moral”?"

    This would appear to be the case, as so many explicit symbols of their past (Confederate statues) are being either torn down or removed from public prominence on government land, etc. If these Southerners did care about preserving their Confederate heritage, then they would make an effort to protect the statues from being removed. Most of the statues being removed are occuring in the South. At one time, these statues were proudly displayed by Southerners, for generations. Now all of a sudden apparently it takes a few people to publicly scream "RACIST! RACIST!" and down the statues go. So, the point being, as time goes on, there is less and less of their past that they are proud of. And, once out of sight, it becomes out of mind. If these southerners were truly proud of their past, then they can easily demonstrate it by....protecting their public monuments from desecration, destruction, removal, etc. What do they have to be ashamed of anyway from that period of time as it relates to the specific Confederate persons who were honored and held up as good examples of Southern heritage by having a statue made in their honor? What exactly are today's Southerners supposed to be ashamed of from that era of their heritage?


    "My friend says, “Are you not projecting what YOU believe ought to be important?"

    So, are you calling Southerners like Paul Kersey a liar for having pointed this out? Shame, shame, shame on you and your "friend". Projecting is often in the eyes of the one asking first. If one turns on the TV for news reports in the South during NCAA season, does one find empty stadiums? Does one find tons of Southerns not watching their TVs tuned to NCAA football? The ratings for the NCAA are a matter of public fact, and are broken down by region of the country. Someone is watching these games.

    “Well, the young people of Alabama grew up in a different time, where such attitudes may not be that important to them."

    Duh. One can ascertain what is important young people. There are polls, research, etc. on their attitudes, tastes, how they vote, etc.


    "Do they not have the freedom to make their own decisions when it comes to race and culture?"

    Who said they didn't have the freedom to do what they want? The point, is that they don't really care about their history, and are slowly forgetting most of it. Those who forget the past are easier to control, and divide.


    "Is not possible that they are more focused on people rather than race,"

    A non-sequitor. Empty slogan.


    "given what they know how their ancestors treated certain groups?”

    What do they know about how their ancestors treated certain groups? Where did they learn this information from? The answer is demonstrating in no small part why they no longer desire to protect the public symbols of their past from desecration, destruction, removal from public prominence. After all, up until quite recently, the South wasn't completely blind to the fact that their ancestors treated certain groups in a certain manner. It wasn't a secret. The awareness of the historical facts didn't change.

    Meanwhile, the other Southerns (non-whites) have remained quite constant and consistent in their demands of removal of Confederate monuments, as well as an increased level of violent crime in the major urban areas. While this isn't unique to the South, some of the nation's highest violent crime rates are found in Southern urban areas. Why is this so? Is it mainly due to whites acting badly? Or is it something else at work?

    Perhaps you should go and play with your "little friend".





    Could not the fine people here simply not express their heritage in the manner you prescribe?”

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Show us in Moore’s history that would prove it otherwise…”

    My friend says, “Here is Moore’s position on immigration (2017)–We must stop the flow of illegal aliens across both our northern and southern borders. Open borders are a threat to our national security and to our economy. We must allow willing states (like Arizona) to protect the health, safety, and welfare of their citizens, and use our own military to protect our border. If a wall is our only option, then we should build it immediately.”

    “When was the last time Rush explicitly mentioned racial issues from a pro-white perspective? Answer: At least two and a half decades. He can sometimes dogwhistle the issues, but for the most part, he doesn’t rock the boat. As a plutocrat, why would he?”

    My friend says, “Why is Rush obligated to speak from this “pro-white perspective”? Could it be that he is being vocal from an America First point of view, which does not necessarily emphasize whites over non-whites?”

    “No, they do not, in the sense of the “New South”. In a generic implicit, unconscious way, perhaps, but perhaps not.”

    My friend says, “You assume that the ‘New South’, whatever that entails as you never defined it, mandates current southerners to embrace pro-whiteness, otherwise they are somehow losing their heritage. Which, of course, is not incumbent upon the person to demonstrate this particular stance to be proud of their southern roots”.

    “This would appear to be the case, as so many explicit symbols of their past (Confederate statues) are being either torn down or removed from public prominence on government land, etc. If these Southerners did care about preserving their Confederate heritage, then they would make an effort to protect the statues from being removed.”

    My friend says, “So it appears you are basing a southerner’s love for their past squarely if they support keeping Confederate statues. That is a narrow way of looking at things. Preserving their former ways of life is not dependent upon this action. And each Southern man and woman has the liberty to decide how they want to demonstrate their love for their region, not you. Besides, there are over 700 of these statues still standing proudly.”

    “Most of the statues being removed are occuring in the South. At one time, these statues were proudly displayed by Southerners, for generations. Now all of a sudden apparently it takes a few people to publicly scream “RACIST! RACIST!” and down the statues go.”

    My friend says, “Of course it’s much more than that. A considerable number of these statues were built in the 1950’s, 1960’s, and early 1970’s through public tax money to physically symbolize the South’s objection to the end of Jim Crow laws. For those statues built in the aftermath of the Civil War, here are the reasons, as outlined by a historian.”

    https://www.sah.org/publications-and-research/sah-blog/sah-blog/2017/09/13/confederate-monuments-and-civic-values-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville

    “If these southerners were truly proud of their past, then they can easily demonstrate it by….protecting their public monuments from desecration, destruction, removal, etc.”

    My friend says, “Again, you are exclusively defining as to what “truly” constitutes southern pride. It doesn’t work that way.”

    “What exactly are today’s Southerners supposed to be ashamed of from that era of their heritage?”

    My friend says, “You are being obtuse here. Allegedly you are an educated man, you can figure out why some Southerners are ‘ashamed’”.

    “A non-sequitor. Empty slogan.”

    My friend says, “How is the statement ‘“Is not possible that they are more focused on people rather than race’ a non sequitur? Do you even know what this fallacy means? And, no, it is not an ’empty slogan’ considering that those southerners who are religious put people first rather than race, according to His word.”

    “Who said they didn’t have the freedom to do what they want? The point, is that they don’t really care about their history, and are slowly forgetting most of it. Those who forget the past are easier to control, and divide.”

    My friend says, “According to YOU, if southerners do not do what you want them to do to show love for their past, then they do not care about their history. But of course they have the freedom to do what they want, so they can still show affection for their heritage in a number of different ways, while opposing certain ideas that their ancestors espoused. It would seem that you are being controlling here, as you are trying to unilaterally impose a strict standard by which southern pride is measured.”

    “What do they know about how their ancestors treated certain groups? Where did they learn this information from?”

    My friend says, “History. And a number of southerners, including their ancestors, were actually opposed to the Civil War and segregation laws, much to their credit.”

    “After all, up until quite recently, the South wasn’t completely blind to the fact that their ancestors treated certain groups in a certain manner. It wasn’t a secret.”

    My friend says, “So how would you characterize this treatment, considering it wasn’t a ‘secret’”?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Corvinus

    "My friend says, “Here is Moore’s position on immigration (2017)–We must stop the flow of illegal aliens across both our northern and southern borders."

    This isn't a pro-white perspective. The late Rep. Barbara Jordan agreed with stopping the flow of illegal immigration for various reasons, and she wasn't white. So again, nothing in Moore's case that would conclusively demonstrate he is pro-white per se.


    "My friend says, “Of course it’s much more than that."

    Certainly, but not entirely.


    "A considerable number of these statues were built in the 1950′s, 1960′s, and early 1970′s"

    Many statues and monuments were also built in the 1900's, 1910's, and 1920's,when many Confederate veterans were still very much alive. In this context, the monuments and statues were built to honor their veterans for their service to their respective states.



    "through public tax money"

    Uh, most statues/monuments that are built for expressed purpose of display on government land is done thru tax money. Oops.



    "to physically symbolize the South’s objection to the end of Jim Crow laws."

    Perhaps, perhaps not. The ones built before Civil Rights era were mainly intended to honor the Confederate veterans who served their states. Nothing to do with Jim Crow per se.




    "My friend says,"

    Imaginary, akin to Plato's Republic or Sir Thomas More's Utopia, except when those learned men of letters applied the trope it was more witty and interesting, not worn out, cliched, and dull witted.


    “Why is Rush obligated to speak from this “pro-white perspective”?

    Why do you feel the need to answer a question with a question, unless of course you really don't have an answer. Ah.


    "Could it be that he is being vocal from an America First point of view, which does not necessarily emphasize whites over non-whites?"

    America First from 2018, especially when laundered thru the neocon perspective, doesn't advocate anything in particular. Nice symbolic rhetoric, but little of substantial value. Rush also has a history of not particularly taking the side of the lower classes. And since he is a plutocrat, a member of the top 1%, its entirely understandable why he wouldn't.

    “You assume that the ‘New South’, whatever that entails as you never defined it,"

    ZZZZ. Oh, you are finished. Or rabbiting on. And on. And on. To define would take far longer than a post. And you know that. Or should.


    "mandates current southerners to embrace pro-whiteness, otherwise they are somehow losing their heritage."

    If white southerners are to embrace their heritage as they have always done before, then there should be no reason to change the ways that they've embraced it (except for resorting to violence, of course).
    Also, another factor regarding the South, and perhaps explains the change, is that the demographics of the region are steadily changing due to immigration from other nations (especially from non-white nations). Example: From a traditional perspective, someone like first generation Nikki Haley isn't really a Southerner. That's simply an accident of birth. Her parents could've raised her in New York and it would amount to the same thing. And its no accident that Haley was quite vocal in removing the Confederate flag from the state capital courthouse.



    "Which, of course, is not incumbent upon the person to demonstrate this particular stance to be proud of their southern roots”

    Sure it is. If a person is proud of their heritage they can do so in a public manner. Oftentimes that includes defending their heritage from desecration, defamation, etc.



    “Again, you are exclusively defining as to what “truly” constitutes southern pride. It doesn’t work that way.”

    Another non-sequitor. Would note that for the South, pride in their heritage was consistent down thru the generations. Now all of a sudden they in large part don't appear to want to defend that pride in a public manner from others (non-white mainly) who don't share in that pride/heritage and want to remove visible displays of it from as many public venues as possible.


    "My friend says, “You are being obtuse here. "

    Pot calling the kettle. Speak for yourself. An imaginary friend used as a trope to make various points as apparently can't be made directly.


    "Allegedly you are an educated man,"

    I've never assumed that about you, and see little reason to make that assumption.


    "you can figure out why some Southerners are ‘ashamed’”.

    Actually no I cannot. As certain unpleasant facts of Southern history have been well known, understood for over 150 years, it never appeared to induce guilt, shame, etc in Southerners before, at least in a public way that would make them want to remove their own monuments, statues, flag, etc from public view. Now all of a sudden in a relatively short period of time, apparently all it takes is a few angry folks from the non-white perspective to cause them to get all afraid and care how others think of them. One really doesn't see other racial groups adopt this perspective. For example: If tons of conservative (and for sake of argument, some liberals as well) popular opinion makers and pundits consistently berated blacks in the South for their social problems (e.g. high crime rates, low literacy, etc), by what we know from the last half century, this public tactic would not be very successful in inducing guilt, concern, and a genuine promise from the vast majority (ca.90%) or even a simple majority (%50plus one) of blacks as a whole to change their ways, AND then they actually attempt to change their ways.

    Nothing in the last half century demonstrates that this would work on blacks to change their ways, much less feel the need to apologize to whites for any and every single bad behavior that they may have caused them.

    If one wants to say that whites in the South are attempting to atone for any grief caused to the peoples of color, one then would say, why do they have to at this point in time? Slavery ended a century and a half ago, Jim Crow ended roughly sixty years ago, Civil Rights laws have been on the books for over half a century. What exactly do southerners have to atone for? And with the shoe on the other foot, looking at recent history (e.g. this year, this decade, etc) it should be time for non-whites to start showing some remorse for how they've treated whites, as well as assume responsibility for their own social behaviors that have negatively impacted Southern society (and the US) as a whole. (which would be high crime rates, low literacy levels, high unemployment rates, high welfare and use of government services which serve as a drag on the system as a whole, etc).


    "And, no, it is not an ‘empty slogan’ considering that those southerners who are religious put people first rather than race, according to His word.”

    Yes it is. In the context of the real world, it rings hollow and empty. Sounds nice though. Do keep believing whatever one has to in order to maintain the fiction of harmony, world peace, etc. And, whose word exactly? Whose word in this context? If it is a religious context, then one would be able to demonstrate that that particular theological perspective was understood for over centuries.


    "they can still show affection for their heritage in a number of different ways, while opposing certain ideas that their ancestors espoused."

    All of a sudden they oppose ideas that were never opposed before. Due to an infusion of political correctness, as well as an influx of non-white immigrants into the region who don't share their heritage, couldn't care less about the South's history, and if thought about it for any length of time, perhaps wouldn't want to be identified with that heritage. Example being former NC governor Nikki Haley. These ideas have been around a long time and never appeared to greatly bother Southerners before in any significant number. One should look at why this would be the case in recent years.

    "It would seem that you are being controlling here, as you are trying to unilaterally impose a strict standard by which southern pride is measured.”

    No dog in the race. But note the irony of who is doing the controlling by using an imaginary friend to do one's own speaking rather than use one's own thoughts. I also gave an example of a modern type of Southern pride, watching NCAA football. That would appear not to have any controversial political overtones and is deemed a "safe" outlet for southerners to express their pride.



    “History."

    An ignorant statement. Southerners have attended public schools for a long time. History was always a required class. It did not appear to bother them in any great degree up to this point. Of course, again, the South's demographics aren't the same as they once were (e.g. due to influx of non-white immigrants, as well as other Americans moving to the South from other regions of the country. And they tend to be more liberal than traditional southerners).



    "And a number of southerners, including their ancestors, were actually opposed to the Civil War"

    What number? A majority? Answer: No. Let's try again. First of all, today's southerners didn't fight in the Civil War (which ended in 1865), duh. See why I never assume someone talking to an imaginary friend can espouse accurate things? The only voice that counted were their ancestors as they would've had to be drafted to fight in the War.

    But yes, there were some southerners who opposed going to war "Rich man's war, poor man's fight" as it was sometimes called. But they were opposed to the war not for altruistic reasons. They didn't want to fight because they wanted to be left alone and live their lives in peace. However, as the war continued and the South was attacked by the North in full force, those who opposed the War gradually supported the defense of their homes, their states, and their region as a whole.

    "and segregation laws, much to their credit.”

    Not many though. Apparently living around non-whites for as long as they have gave them a certain perspective as to why segregation laws were deemed necessary at that time. Perhaps to their credit, as Paul Kersey (NOT my friend, by the way) who has written extensively on the subject, states, segregation for that era was deemed necessary. If you don't agree with Mr. Kersey, then I would suggest you take it up with him.


    “So how would you characterize this treatment, considering it wasn’t a ‘secret’”?"

    Doing it again, answering a response with a question (much akin to a six year old just out pre-school who wets his pants and plays with imaginary friends). One notes that there have been changing demographics in the South (and the US as a whole) due to non-white immigration. Also there have been people moving to the South from other regions of the country. Many of whom don't share in Southern History, nor do they happen to hold similar conservative political views as Southerners generally have.

    Perhaps you should leave your little "friend" alone, make up your own mind on things, attempt to go back to school (even for remedial classes) and....uh, get out more.



    And a number of southerners, including their ancestors, were actually opposed to the Civil War and segregation laws, much to their credit.”



    It would seem that you are being controlling here, as you are trying to unilaterally impose a strict standard by which southern pride is measured.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  177. @Corvinus
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "Show us in Moore’s history that would prove it otherwise..."

    My friend says, "Here is Moore's position on immigration (2017)--We must stop the flow of illegal aliens across both our northern and southern borders. Open borders are a threat to our national security and to our economy. We must allow willing states (like Arizona) to protect the health, safety, and welfare of their citizens, and use our own military to protect our border. If a wall is our only option, then we should build it immediately."

    "When was the last time Rush explicitly mentioned racial issues from a pro-white perspective? Answer: At least two and a half decades. He can sometimes dogwhistle the issues, but for the most part, he doesn’t rock the boat. As a plutocrat, why would he?"

    My friend says, "Why is Rush obligated to speak from this "pro-white perspective"? Could it be that he is being vocal from an America First point of view, which does not necessarily emphasize whites over non-whites?"

    "No, they do not, in the sense of the “New South”. In a generic implicit, unconscious way, perhaps, but perhaps not."

    My friend says, "You assume that the 'New South', whatever that entails as you never defined it, mandates current southerners to embrace pro-whiteness, otherwise they are somehow losing their heritage. Which, of course, is not incumbent upon the person to demonstrate this particular stance to be proud of their southern roots".

    "This would appear to be the case, as so many explicit symbols of their past (Confederate statues) are being either torn down or removed from public prominence on government land, etc. If these Southerners did care about preserving their Confederate heritage, then they would make an effort to protect the statues from being removed."

    My friend says, "So it appears you are basing a southerner's love for their past squarely if they support keeping Confederate statues. That is a narrow way of looking at things. Preserving their former ways of life is not dependent upon this action. And each Southern man and woman has the liberty to decide how they want to demonstrate their love for their region, not you. Besides, there are over 700 of these statues still standing proudly."

    "Most of the statues being removed are occuring in the South. At one time, these statues were proudly displayed by Southerners, for generations. Now all of a sudden apparently it takes a few people to publicly scream “RACIST! RACIST!” and down the statues go."

    My friend says, "Of course it's much more than that. A considerable number of these statues were built in the 1950's, 1960's, and early 1970's through public tax money to physically symbolize the South's objection to the end of Jim Crow laws. For those statues built in the aftermath of the Civil War, here are the reasons, as outlined by a historian."

    https://www.sah.org/publications-and-research/sah-blog/sah-blog/2017/09/13/confederate-monuments-and-civic-values-in-the-wake-of-charlottesville

    "If these southerners were truly proud of their past, then they can easily demonstrate it by….protecting their public monuments from desecration, destruction, removal, etc."

    My friend says, "Again, you are exclusively defining as to what "truly" constitutes southern pride. It doesn't work that way."

    "What exactly are today’s Southerners supposed to be ashamed of from that era of their heritage?"

    My friend says, "You are being obtuse here. Allegedly you are an educated man, you can figure out why some Southerners are 'ashamed'".

    "A non-sequitor. Empty slogan."

    My friend says, "How is the statement '“Is not possible that they are more focused on people rather than race' a non sequitur? Do you even know what this fallacy means? And, no, it is not an 'empty slogan' considering that those southerners who are religious put people first rather than race, according to His word."

    "Who said they didn’t have the freedom to do what they want? The point, is that they don’t really care about their history, and are slowly forgetting most of it. Those who forget the past are easier to control, and divide."

    My friend says, "According to YOU, if southerners do not do what you want them to do to show love for their past, then they do not care about their history. But of course they have the freedom to do what they want, so they can still show affection for their heritage in a number of different ways, while opposing certain ideas that their ancestors espoused. It would seem that you are being controlling here, as you are trying to unilaterally impose a strict standard by which southern pride is measured."

    "What do they know about how their ancestors treated certain groups? Where did they learn this information from?"

    My friend says, "History. And a number of southerners, including their ancestors, were actually opposed to the Civil War and segregation laws, much to their credit."

    "After all, up until quite recently, the South wasn’t completely blind to the fact that their ancestors treated certain groups in a certain manner. It wasn’t a secret."

    My friend says, "So how would you characterize this treatment, considering it wasn't a 'secret'"?

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “My friend says, “Here is Moore’s position on immigration (2017)–We must stop the flow of illegal aliens across both our northern and southern borders.”

    This isn’t a pro-white perspective. The late Rep. Barbara Jordan agreed with stopping the flow of illegal immigration for various reasons, and she wasn’t white. So again, nothing in Moore’s case that would conclusively demonstrate he is pro-white per se.

    “My friend says, “Of course it’s much more than that.”

    Certainly, but not entirely.

    “A considerable number of these statues were built in the 1950′s, 1960′s, and early 1970′s”

    Many statues and monuments were also built in the 1900’s, 1910’s, and 1920’s,when many Confederate veterans were still very much alive. In this context, the monuments and statues were built to honor their veterans for their service to their respective states.

    “through public tax money”

    Uh, most statues/monuments that are built for expressed purpose of display on government land is done thru tax money. Oops.

    “to physically symbolize the South’s objection to the end of Jim Crow laws.”

    Perhaps, perhaps not. The ones built before Civil Rights era were mainly intended to honor the Confederate veterans who served their states. Nothing to do with Jim Crow per se.

    “My friend says,”

    Imaginary, akin to Plato’s Republic or Sir Thomas More’s Utopia, except when those learned men of letters applied the trope it was more witty and interesting, not worn out, cliched, and dull witted.

    [MORE]

    “Why is Rush obligated to speak from this “pro-white perspective”?

    Why do you feel the need to answer a question with a question, unless of course you really don’t have an answer. Ah.

    “Could it be that he is being vocal from an America First point of view, which does not necessarily emphasize whites over non-whites?”

    America First from 2018, especially when laundered thru the neocon perspective, doesn’t advocate anything in particular. Nice symbolic rhetoric, but little of substantial value. Rush also has a history of not particularly taking the side of the lower classes. And since he is a plutocrat, a member of the top 1%, its entirely understandable why he wouldn’t.

    “You assume that the ‘New South’, whatever that entails as you never defined it,”

    ZZZZ. Oh, you are finished. Or rabbiting on. And on. And on. To define would take far longer than a post. And you know that. Or should.

    “mandates current southerners to embrace pro-whiteness, otherwise they are somehow losing their heritage.”

    If white southerners are to embrace their heritage as they have always done before, then there should be no reason to change the ways that they’ve embraced it (except for resorting to violence, of course).
    Also, another factor regarding the South, and perhaps explains the change, is that the demographics of the region are steadily changing due to immigration from other nations (especially from non-white nations). Example: From a traditional perspective, someone like first generation Nikki Haley isn’t really a Southerner. That’s simply an accident of birth. Her parents could’ve raised her in New York and it would amount to the same thing. And its no accident that Haley was quite vocal in removing the Confederate flag from the state capital courthouse.

    “Which, of course, is not incumbent upon the person to demonstrate this particular stance to be proud of their southern roots”

    Sure it is. If a person is proud of their heritage they can do so in a public manner. Oftentimes that includes defending their heritage from desecration, defamation, etc.

    “Again, you are exclusively defining as to what “truly” constitutes southern pride. It doesn’t work that way.”

    Another non-sequitor. Would note that for the South, pride in their heritage was consistent down thru the generations. Now all of a sudden they in large part don’t appear to want to defend that pride in a public manner from others (non-white mainly) who don’t share in that pride/heritage and want to remove visible displays of it from as many public venues as possible.

    “My friend says, “You are being obtuse here. ”

    Pot calling the kettle. Speak for yourself. An imaginary friend used as a trope to make various points as apparently can’t be made directly.

    “Allegedly you are an educated man,”

    I’ve never assumed that about you, and see little reason to make that assumption.

    “you can figure out why some Southerners are ‘ashamed’”.

    Actually no I cannot. As certain unpleasant facts of Southern history have been well known, understood for over 150 years, it never appeared to induce guilt, shame, etc in Southerners before, at least in a public way that would make them want to remove their own monuments, statues, flag, etc from public view. Now all of a sudden in a relatively short period of time, apparently all it takes is a few angry folks from the non-white perspective to cause them to get all afraid and care how others think of them. One really doesn’t see other racial groups adopt this perspective. For example: If tons of conservative (and for sake of argument, some liberals as well) popular opinion makers and pundits consistently berated blacks in the South for their social problems (e.g. high crime rates, low literacy, etc), by what we know from the last half century, this public tactic would not be very successful in inducing guilt, concern, and a genuine promise from the vast majority (ca.90%) or even a simple majority (%50plus one) of blacks as a whole to change their ways, AND then they actually attempt to change their ways.

    Nothing in the last half century demonstrates that this would work on blacks to change their ways, much less feel the need to apologize to whites for any and every single bad behavior that they may have caused them.

    If one wants to say that whites in the South are attempting to atone for any grief caused to the peoples of color, one then would say, why do they have to at this point in time? Slavery ended a century and a half ago, Jim Crow ended roughly sixty years ago, Civil Rights laws have been on the books for over half a century. What exactly do southerners have to atone for? And with the shoe on the other foot, looking at recent history (e.g. this year, this decade, etc) it should be time for non-whites to start showing some remorse for how they’ve treated whites, as well as assume responsibility for their own social behaviors that have negatively impacted Southern society (and the US) as a whole. (which would be high crime rates, low literacy levels, high unemployment rates, high welfare and use of government services which serve as a drag on the system as a whole, etc).

    “And, no, it is not an ‘empty slogan’ considering that those southerners who are religious put people first rather than race, according to His word.”

    Yes it is. In the context of the real world, it rings hollow and empty. Sounds nice though. Do keep believing whatever one has to in order to maintain the fiction of harmony, world peace, etc. And, whose word exactly? Whose word in this context? If it is a religious context, then one would be able to demonstrate that that particular theological perspective was understood for over centuries.

    “they can still show affection for their heritage in a number of different ways, while opposing certain ideas that their ancestors espoused.”

    All of a sudden they oppose ideas that were never opposed before. Due to an infusion of political correctness, as well as an influx of non-white immigrants into the region who don’t share their heritage, couldn’t care less about the South’s history, and if thought about it for any length of time, perhaps wouldn’t want to be identified with that heritage. Example being former NC governor Nikki Haley. These ideas have been around a long time and never appeared to greatly bother Southerners before in any significant number. One should look at why this would be the case in recent years.

    “It would seem that you are being controlling here, as you are trying to unilaterally impose a strict standard by which southern pride is measured.”

    No dog in the race. But note the irony of who is doing the controlling by using an imaginary friend to do one’s own speaking rather than use one’s own thoughts. I also gave an example of a modern type of Southern pride, watching NCAA football. That would appear not to have any controversial political overtones and is deemed a “safe” outlet for southerners to express their pride.

    “History.”

    An ignorant statement. Southerners have attended public schools for a long time. History was always a required class. It did not appear to bother them in any great degree up to this point. Of course, again, the South’s demographics aren’t the same as they once were (e.g. due to influx of non-white immigrants, as well as other Americans moving to the South from other regions of the country. And they tend to be more liberal than traditional southerners).

    “And a number of southerners, including their ancestors, were actually opposed to the Civil War”

    What number? A majority? Answer: No. Let’s try again. First of all, today’s southerners didn’t fight in the Civil War (which ended in 1865), duh. See why I never assume someone talking to an imaginary friend can espouse accurate things? The only voice that counted were their ancestors as they would’ve had to be drafted to fight in the War.

    But yes, there were some southerners who opposed going to war “Rich man’s war, poor man’s fight” as it was sometimes called. But they were opposed to the war not for altruistic reasons. They didn’t want to fight because they wanted to be left alone and live their lives in peace. However, as the war continued and the South was attacked by the North in full force, those who opposed the War gradually supported the defense of their homes, their states, and their region as a whole.

    “and segregation laws, much to their credit.”

    Not many though. Apparently living around non-whites for as long as they have gave them a certain perspective as to why segregation laws were deemed necessary at that time. Perhaps to their credit, as Paul Kersey (NOT my friend, by the way) who has written extensively on the subject, states, segregation for that era was deemed necessary. If you don’t agree with Mr. Kersey, then I would suggest you take it up with him.

    “So how would you characterize this treatment, considering it wasn’t a ‘secret’”?”

    Doing it again, answering a response with a question (much akin to a six year old just out pre-school who wets his pants and plays with imaginary friends). One notes that there have been changing demographics in the South (and the US as a whole) due to non-white immigration. Also there have been people moving to the South from other regions of the country. Many of whom don’t share in Southern History, nor do they happen to hold similar conservative political views as Southerners generally have.

    Perhaps you should leave your little “friend” alone, make up your own mind on things, attempt to go back to school (even for remedial classes) and….uh, get out more.

    And a number of southerners, including their ancestors, were actually opposed to the Civil War and segregation laws, much to their credit.”

    It would seem that you are being controlling here, as you are trying to unilaterally impose a strict standard by which southern pride is measured.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    "This isn’t a pro-white perspective."

    Here is what my friend said--"Is he [Moore] directly or indirectly supporting the inclusion of immigrants for our nation, considering that it also lured foreign automobile manufacturers replete with non-union jobs?"

    You replied. “INdirectly. Obviously he wouldn’t be consciously aware of what he’s actually promoting.”

    My friend then responded with Moore's own position on immigration. My friend says, "Somehow, you have steered the conversation toward "pro-white perspective", which is irrelevant here. Remain on point, please."

    "Many statues and monuments were also built in the 1900′s, 1910′s, and 1920′s,when many Confederate veterans were still very much alive. In this context, the monuments and statues were built to honor their veterans for their service to their respective states.. The ones built before Civil Rights era were mainly intended to honor the Confederate veterans who served their states."

    My friend says, "Clearly you did not read the link I provided, or if you did read it, you are ignoring what he wrote or dismissing it entirely."

    "Why do you feel the need to answer a question with a question, unless of course you really don’t have an answer. Ah."

    My friend says, "I asked the question in response to your STATEMENTS. The question still remains--“Why is Rush obligated to speak from this “pro-white perspective”?" Moreover, his neocon perspective is a red herring on your part. Nice try".

    "ZZZZ. Oh, you are finished. Or rabbiting on. And on. And on. To define would take far longer than a post. And you know that. Or should."

    My friend says, "If you brought forth this concept of the "New South", which means different things to different people, and someone asks you what it means to you, then in order to move the conversation forward you are obligated to offer background. It's not on you. No rabbiting here, just inquiring. That is how discourse works."

    "If white southerners are to embrace their heritage as they have always done before, then there should be no reason to change the ways that they’ve embraced it (except for resorting to violence, of course)."

    My friend says, "Except white southerners have embraced their heritage in their own individual way, as they have always done before. Why do you insist that if southern whites no longer come to the defense of saving Confederate statues, or do not agree with coming to that defense, that they are no longer interested in embracing their heritage? Because that is YOUR line of thinking. Which, in the end, is merely an opinion, NOT fact."

    "Example: From a traditional perspective, someone like first generation Nikki Haley isn’t really a Southerner. That’s simply an accident of birth."

    My friend says, "Not a southerner to YOU. The people in the fine state of South Carolina, as well as other southerners, can make that determination for themselves. If they agree with you, fine. But, ultimately, it's not your decision to make for other people as to who is and who is not a southerner."

    "Another non-sequitor. Would note that for the South, pride in their heritage was consistent down thru the generations. Now all of a sudden they in large part don’t appear to want to defend that pride in a public manner from others (non-white mainly) who don’t share in that pride/heritage and want to remove visible displays of it from as many public venues as possible."

    My friend says, "No, pride by southerners in their heritage remains consistent in public even today.
    Perhaps you are just not noticing. It's just that you would prefer that they would defend Confederate monuments. But again that pride is not incumbent upon southerners being vocal on a particular matter that you find necessary. It may very well be that their pride has manifested itself in ways that you personally disagree with."

    "If one wants to say that whites in the South are attempting to atone for any grief caused to the peoples of color, one then would say, why do they have to at this point in time?"

    My friend says, "Refer to the link I provided."

    "Many of whom don’t share in Southern History, nor do they happen to hold similar conservative
    political views as Southerners generally have."

    My friend says, "That is freedom of association and freedom of movement in action. That happens in life. But the fact remains that southerners do have pride in their past, just not in the way that you demand it to be, which gives you great consternation. Cheer up, SEC football is right around the corner!"

  178. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Clyde

    Clyde, most of those cute China girls (and the guys there too) at the Chinese buffets are illegal aliens, as described in The China to King Buffet Pipeline. Yes, we used to go to some of these places about once or twice a month, but haven't seemed to in a while. That is where I found out the story, along with more info. from a businessman who is friends with an owner of one of the biggest buffets. This illegal immigration is lots more organized than that from south of the border, which I suppose one should expect.

    You know you are a Foodie when you eat at places that have prices in round dollars, without cents. Those are the fancy places, and they expect you to think like "oh, hors-de-vours for 5, steak for 27, a glass of wine for 8, seems pretty reasonable ... what do those numbers mean anyway". You are NOT a Foodie if the entries have numbers for ordering like "give me a # 5, extra brown sauce, and hold the e-coli, por favor."

    Replies: @Clyde

    I read your two blog posts at Peak Absurdity. My guess is two million illegal Chinese in America, including Chinese who wrangle their way in here as Thais , Viets, Filipinos. This one is even better. Days before 9 11 2001 there was a Bangladeshi community leader loudmouth in the New York Times. I am pretty sure his photo was there, even online. He was bragging how there were 100,000 illegal Bangladeshis in the NY area most especially in Queens. Near the Chinatown. btw NYC has five China Towns. iirc The original one in Manhattan and two each in Queens and Brooklyn.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Clyde

    Please, Clyde, Peak Stupidity, not Absurdity, although I just checked and that URL has not been taken - have at it!

    Thanks for the correction on the 5 Chinatowns (sounds like another Commie program - the 5 Chinatowns followed by the 7 absurdities, or something ...) . I know of the Manhattan one, the one in Queens in Flushing neighborhood, and the Brooklyn one that's SW of Prospect Park. Where are the other 2?

    Yeah, none of these people have been living in the shadows, as they would have to in a country that gave a damn.

    Thanks for reading, BTW!

  179. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Corvinus

    "My friend says, “Here is Moore’s position on immigration (2017)–We must stop the flow of illegal aliens across both our northern and southern borders."

    This isn't a pro-white perspective. The late Rep. Barbara Jordan agreed with stopping the flow of illegal immigration for various reasons, and she wasn't white. So again, nothing in Moore's case that would conclusively demonstrate he is pro-white per se.


    "My friend says, “Of course it’s much more than that."

    Certainly, but not entirely.


    "A considerable number of these statues were built in the 1950′s, 1960′s, and early 1970′s"

    Many statues and monuments were also built in the 1900's, 1910's, and 1920's,when many Confederate veterans were still very much alive. In this context, the monuments and statues were built to honor their veterans for their service to their respective states.



    "through public tax money"

    Uh, most statues/monuments that are built for expressed purpose of display on government land is done thru tax money. Oops.



    "to physically symbolize the South’s objection to the end of Jim Crow laws."

    Perhaps, perhaps not. The ones built before Civil Rights era were mainly intended to honor the Confederate veterans who served their states. Nothing to do with Jim Crow per se.




    "My friend says,"

    Imaginary, akin to Plato's Republic or Sir Thomas More's Utopia, except when those learned men of letters applied the trope it was more witty and interesting, not worn out, cliched, and dull witted.


    “Why is Rush obligated to speak from this “pro-white perspective”?

    Why do you feel the need to answer a question with a question, unless of course you really don't have an answer. Ah.


    "Could it be that he is being vocal from an America First point of view, which does not necessarily emphasize whites over non-whites?"

    America First from 2018, especially when laundered thru the neocon perspective, doesn't advocate anything in particular. Nice symbolic rhetoric, but little of substantial value. Rush also has a history of not particularly taking the side of the lower classes. And since he is a plutocrat, a member of the top 1%, its entirely understandable why he wouldn't.

    “You assume that the ‘New South’, whatever that entails as you never defined it,"

    ZZZZ. Oh, you are finished. Or rabbiting on. And on. And on. To define would take far longer than a post. And you know that. Or should.


    "mandates current southerners to embrace pro-whiteness, otherwise they are somehow losing their heritage."

    If white southerners are to embrace their heritage as they have always done before, then there should be no reason to change the ways that they've embraced it (except for resorting to violence, of course).
    Also, another factor regarding the South, and perhaps explains the change, is that the demographics of the region are steadily changing due to immigration from other nations (especially from non-white nations). Example: From a traditional perspective, someone like first generation Nikki Haley isn't really a Southerner. That's simply an accident of birth. Her parents could've raised her in New York and it would amount to the same thing. And its no accident that Haley was quite vocal in removing the Confederate flag from the state capital courthouse.



    "Which, of course, is not incumbent upon the person to demonstrate this particular stance to be proud of their southern roots”

    Sure it is. If a person is proud of their heritage they can do so in a public manner. Oftentimes that includes defending their heritage from desecration, defamation, etc.



    “Again, you are exclusively defining as to what “truly” constitutes southern pride. It doesn’t work that way.”

    Another non-sequitor. Would note that for the South, pride in their heritage was consistent down thru the generations. Now all of a sudden they in large part don't appear to want to defend that pride in a public manner from others (non-white mainly) who don't share in that pride/heritage and want to remove visible displays of it from as many public venues as possible.


    "My friend says, “You are being obtuse here. "

    Pot calling the kettle. Speak for yourself. An imaginary friend used as a trope to make various points as apparently can't be made directly.


    "Allegedly you are an educated man,"

    I've never assumed that about you, and see little reason to make that assumption.


    "you can figure out why some Southerners are ‘ashamed’”.

    Actually no I cannot. As certain unpleasant facts of Southern history have been well known, understood for over 150 years, it never appeared to induce guilt, shame, etc in Southerners before, at least in a public way that would make them want to remove their own monuments, statues, flag, etc from public view. Now all of a sudden in a relatively short period of time, apparently all it takes is a few angry folks from the non-white perspective to cause them to get all afraid and care how others think of them. One really doesn't see other racial groups adopt this perspective. For example: If tons of conservative (and for sake of argument, some liberals as well) popular opinion makers and pundits consistently berated blacks in the South for their social problems (e.g. high crime rates, low literacy, etc), by what we know from the last half century, this public tactic would not be very successful in inducing guilt, concern, and a genuine promise from the vast majority (ca.90%) or even a simple majority (%50plus one) of blacks as a whole to change their ways, AND then they actually attempt to change their ways.

    Nothing in the last half century demonstrates that this would work on blacks to change their ways, much less feel the need to apologize to whites for any and every single bad behavior that they may have caused them.

    If one wants to say that whites in the South are attempting to atone for any grief caused to the peoples of color, one then would say, why do they have to at this point in time? Slavery ended a century and a half ago, Jim Crow ended roughly sixty years ago, Civil Rights laws have been on the books for over half a century. What exactly do southerners have to atone for? And with the shoe on the other foot, looking at recent history (e.g. this year, this decade, etc) it should be time for non-whites to start showing some remorse for how they've treated whites, as well as assume responsibility for their own social behaviors that have negatively impacted Southern society (and the US) as a whole. (which would be high crime rates, low literacy levels, high unemployment rates, high welfare and use of government services which serve as a drag on the system as a whole, etc).


    "And, no, it is not an ‘empty slogan’ considering that those southerners who are religious put people first rather than race, according to His word.”

    Yes it is. In the context of the real world, it rings hollow and empty. Sounds nice though. Do keep believing whatever one has to in order to maintain the fiction of harmony, world peace, etc. And, whose word exactly? Whose word in this context? If it is a religious context, then one would be able to demonstrate that that particular theological perspective was understood for over centuries.


    "they can still show affection for their heritage in a number of different ways, while opposing certain ideas that their ancestors espoused."

    All of a sudden they oppose ideas that were never opposed before. Due to an infusion of political correctness, as well as an influx of non-white immigrants into the region who don't share their heritage, couldn't care less about the South's history, and if thought about it for any length of time, perhaps wouldn't want to be identified with that heritage. Example being former NC governor Nikki Haley. These ideas have been around a long time and never appeared to greatly bother Southerners before in any significant number. One should look at why this would be the case in recent years.

    "It would seem that you are being controlling here, as you are trying to unilaterally impose a strict standard by which southern pride is measured.”

    No dog in the race. But note the irony of who is doing the controlling by using an imaginary friend to do one's own speaking rather than use one's own thoughts. I also gave an example of a modern type of Southern pride, watching NCAA football. That would appear not to have any controversial political overtones and is deemed a "safe" outlet for southerners to express their pride.



    “History."

    An ignorant statement. Southerners have attended public schools for a long time. History was always a required class. It did not appear to bother them in any great degree up to this point. Of course, again, the South's demographics aren't the same as they once were (e.g. due to influx of non-white immigrants, as well as other Americans moving to the South from other regions of the country. And they tend to be more liberal than traditional southerners).



    "And a number of southerners, including their ancestors, were actually opposed to the Civil War"

    What number? A majority? Answer: No. Let's try again. First of all, today's southerners didn't fight in the Civil War (which ended in 1865), duh. See why I never assume someone talking to an imaginary friend can espouse accurate things? The only voice that counted were their ancestors as they would've had to be drafted to fight in the War.

    But yes, there were some southerners who opposed going to war "Rich man's war, poor man's fight" as it was sometimes called. But they were opposed to the war not for altruistic reasons. They didn't want to fight because they wanted to be left alone and live their lives in peace. However, as the war continued and the South was attacked by the North in full force, those who opposed the War gradually supported the defense of their homes, their states, and their region as a whole.

    "and segregation laws, much to their credit.”

    Not many though. Apparently living around non-whites for as long as they have gave them a certain perspective as to why segregation laws were deemed necessary at that time. Perhaps to their credit, as Paul Kersey (NOT my friend, by the way) who has written extensively on the subject, states, segregation for that era was deemed necessary. If you don't agree with Mr. Kersey, then I would suggest you take it up with him.


    “So how would you characterize this treatment, considering it wasn’t a ‘secret’”?"

    Doing it again, answering a response with a question (much akin to a six year old just out pre-school who wets his pants and plays with imaginary friends). One notes that there have been changing demographics in the South (and the US as a whole) due to non-white immigration. Also there have been people moving to the South from other regions of the country. Many of whom don't share in Southern History, nor do they happen to hold similar conservative political views as Southerners generally have.

    Perhaps you should leave your little "friend" alone, make up your own mind on things, attempt to go back to school (even for remedial classes) and....uh, get out more.



    And a number of southerners, including their ancestors, were actually opposed to the Civil War and segregation laws, much to their credit.”



    It would seem that you are being controlling here, as you are trying to unilaterally impose a strict standard by which southern pride is measured.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “This isn’t a pro-white perspective.”

    Here is what my friend said–“Is he [Moore] directly or indirectly supporting the inclusion of immigrants for our nation, considering that it also lured foreign automobile manufacturers replete with non-union jobs?”

    You replied. “INdirectly. Obviously he wouldn’t be consciously aware of what he’s actually promoting.”

    My friend then responded with Moore’s own position on immigration. My friend says, “Somehow, you have steered the conversation toward “pro-white perspective”, which is irrelevant here. Remain on point, please.”

    “Many statues and monuments were also built in the 1900′s, 1910′s, and 1920′s,when many Confederate veterans were still very much alive. In this context, the monuments and statues were built to honor their veterans for their service to their respective states.. The ones built before Civil Rights era were mainly intended to honor the Confederate veterans who served their states.”

    My friend says, “Clearly you did not read the link I provided, or if you did read it, you are ignoring what he wrote or dismissing it entirely.”

    “Why do you feel the need to answer a question with a question, unless of course you really don’t have an answer. Ah.”

    My friend says, “I asked the question in response to your STATEMENTS. The question still remains–“Why is Rush obligated to speak from this “pro-white perspective”?” Moreover, his neocon perspective is a red herring on your part. Nice try”.

    “ZZZZ. Oh, you are finished. Or rabbiting on. And on. And on. To define would take far longer than a post. And you know that. Or should.”

    My friend says, “If you brought forth this concept of the “New South”, which means different things to different people, and someone asks you what it means to you, then in order to move the conversation forward you are obligated to offer background. It’s not on you. No rabbiting here, just inquiring. That is how discourse works.”

    “If white southerners are to embrace their heritage as they have always done before, then there should be no reason to change the ways that they’ve embraced it (except for resorting to violence, of course).”

    My friend says, “Except white southerners have embraced their heritage in their own individual way, as they have always done before. Why do you insist that if southern whites no longer come to the defense of saving Confederate statues, or do not agree with coming to that defense, that they are no longer interested in embracing their heritage? Because that is YOUR line of thinking. Which, in the end, is merely an opinion, NOT fact.”

    “Example: From a traditional perspective, someone like first generation Nikki Haley isn’t really a Southerner. That’s simply an accident of birth.”

    My friend says, “Not a southerner to YOU. The people in the fine state of South Carolina, as well as other southerners, can make that determination for themselves. If they agree with you, fine. But, ultimately, it’s not your decision to make for other people as to who is and who is not a southerner.”

    “Another non-sequitor. Would note that for the South, pride in their heritage was consistent down thru the generations. Now all of a sudden they in large part don’t appear to want to defend that pride in a public manner from others (non-white mainly) who don’t share in that pride/heritage and want to remove visible displays of it from as many public venues as possible.”

    My friend says, “No, pride by southerners in their heritage remains consistent in public even today.
    Perhaps you are just not noticing. It’s just that you would prefer that they would defend Confederate monuments. But again that pride is not incumbent upon southerners being vocal on a particular matter that you find necessary. It may very well be that their pride has manifested itself in ways that you personally disagree with.”

    “If one wants to say that whites in the South are attempting to atone for any grief caused to the peoples of color, one then would say, why do they have to at this point in time?”

    My friend says, “Refer to the link I provided.”

    “Many of whom don’t share in Southern History, nor do they happen to hold similar conservative
    political views as Southerners generally have.”

    My friend says, “That is freedom of association and freedom of movement in action. That happens in life. But the fact remains that southerners do have pride in their past, just not in the way that you demand it to be, which gives you great consternation. Cheer up, SEC football is right around the corner!”

  180. @JackOH
    Good grief! Soluble borders so that well-positioned folks can access "structurally" cheap labor, privatize profits, and externalize costs is a mainstay of the bloody American experience. Ask Virginia planters who imported enslaved Africans in the 1600s. Good deal for the Southern plantocracy until it become not such a good deal--for everyone.

    Steelmakers in my area were recruiting Puerto Ricans to work in the mills as late as the 1950s, barely twenty years before the local industry collapsed due to its high-cost inland location.

    America's Big Business cheap labor crowd works a wonderful con. (By "wonderful", I mean I wonder how they repeatedly keep getting away with it.) They wreak social havoc by importing those disparate huddled masses to unduly enrich themselves, then their trustafarian sons and daughters bleat from their exurban gated communities about achieving "social justice" among people who just can't seem to get along. Gosh, golly. Those Big Business types have me thinking of those very few firefighters who become arsonists, burning down a building so they can be its savior.

    Replies: @Clyde

    Superior post!

    • Replies: @JackOH
    @Clyde

    Clyde, thanks for the kind words.

    Replies: @Clyde

  181. @Clyde
    @JackOH

    Superior post!

    Replies: @JackOH

    Clyde, thanks for the kind words.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @JackOH

    Not a problem. Everyone wants acknowledgement for something they did (excuse my grammar) good, superior or excellent. A New Yorker writer agreed with me on this. Just look how school children crave it. Little molecules in a cold universe all looking for large and small thanks, acknowledgements and I will say love.

  182. @Jack D

    Lagertha mentioned that a common sight in rural areas these days is old boats decaying in yards.
     
    Actual statistics would be nicer than Lagertha's anecdotes, charming as they are.

    Also, I take your large point (i.e. the meat packer in question (and many like him although again some sort of educated estimate of how may people are in that boat and how much immigration has affected wages would have been nice) now makes 70% less than he used to, thanks to all of the amigos now working in the plant) , but hobbies like boating, golf, tennis, etc. go in and out of fashion.

    I know that a lot of kids in the current generation are just not into cars the way guys of our generation were into cars, not because they can't afford them but just because cars as a hobby are less popular. Whenever Jay Leno (himself an old white guy) has anyone on his web show who restores cars or collects cars, etc. (including the guys he has on payroll) they are old white guys. Maybe boats are like that too - I have no idea.

    Replies: @Lot, @Moral Stone, @Twinkie, @Another Canadian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Cloudbuster, @AnotherDad, @Jim bob Lassiter, @MEH 0910

  183. @JackOH
    @Clyde

    Clyde, thanks for the kind words.

    Replies: @Clyde

    Not a problem. Everyone wants acknowledgement for something they did (excuse my grammar) good, superior or excellent. A New Yorker writer agreed with me on this. Just look how school children crave it. Little molecules in a cold universe all looking for large and small thanks, acknowledgements and I will say love.

  184. @Clyde
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I read your two blog posts at Peak Absurdity. My guess is two million illegal Chinese in America, including Chinese who wrangle their way in here as Thais , Viets, Filipinos. This one is even better. Days before 9 11 2001 there was a Bangladeshi community leader loudmouth in the New York Times. I am pretty sure his photo was there, even online. He was bragging how there were 100,000 illegal Bangladeshis in the NY area most especially in Queens. Near the Chinatown. btw NYC has five China Towns. iirc The original one in Manhattan and two each in Queens and Brooklyn.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Please, Clyde, Peak Stupidity, not Absurdity, although I just checked and that URL has not been taken – have at it!

    Thanks for the correction on the 5 Chinatowns (sounds like another Commie program – the 5 Chinatowns followed by the 7 absurdities, or something …) . I know of the Manhattan one, the one in Queens in Flushing neighborhood, and the Brooklyn one that’s SW of Prospect Park. Where are the other 2?

    Yeah, none of these people have been living in the shadows, as they would have to in a country that gave a damn.

    Thanks for reading, BTW!

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