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The Border Emergency
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The border is overwhelmed by Central Americans claiming asylum. But what are you going to do?

After all, that’s how high school students apply for Harvard admission. Their parents drive them hundreds or thousands of miles to Cambridge, MA and then they mill around for months, living in the Harvard dorms, while Harvard’s admissions committee carefully checks out their credentials. It’s a nightmare for Cambridge residents, of course, but whaddaya whaddaya?

What? They don’t?

Harvard instead insists applicants apply from their own home over the Internet or via the mail?

Who knew?

Seriously, the government’s system sounds like how you’d apply to the Sorbonne in 1482. “Yeah, I’m taking an oxcart from Nantes, and then the University of Paris is going to put me up with this guy named Quasimodo until November or maybe next year while the faculty thinks it over.”

 
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  1. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Bribe or cajole ( plata o plomo ) Mexican bureaucrats and kleptocrats to keep them out of Mexico in the first place, they won’t get here then, and institute a C-5 Policy: you get turned down and you are on the daily C-5 Galaxy back home within eight hours.

    • Replies: @songbird
  2. The Democratic is importing its nonwhite Democratic Party Voting Bloc with the open intent to 1)nullify the Native Born White American Working Class Vote at POTUS Election time…..2)to vote the Native Born White American Working Class Majority into a violently persecuted White Racial Minority within the borders of a post-White “America”…

    This is both manifestly foreign interference in US Elections and an open declaration of a race war against the Historic Native Born White American Working Class Majority….

  3. And if Harvard admissions were analogous to the border situation, then applicants could wander off from the applicant housing to sneak onto campus and jam classrooms to get partial credit at the expense of the students who were supposed to be there.

    • Agree: Endgame Napoleon
  4. Seriously, the government’s system sounds like how you’d apply to the University of Paris in 1300.

    Sore bone!

  5. So much in so few words! God bless you, Sailer. If you don’t mind I am going to use your words in all future conversations on the subject.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  6. Michael S says:

    Yes, but the benefit of being a Harvard student or professor is that the rules don’t apply to you.

    Of course it’s not about principles (the very idea!). It’s about whether you control enough of the megaphone to demand enforcement of your borders while nullifying everyone else’s. Walls are literally status; rich people have dozens of walls in a single dwelling, while poor people have to share 4 of their 5 walls (including the ceiling) with other poor people.

    Can you convince 500 journalists to simultaneously write thinkpieces demanding open borders to Harvard whilst staging multiple violent protests without any fear of consequences? No? Then open wide, peon.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Mr. Anon
  7. trelane says:

    Applications for Roman citizenship after 476 AD or barbarians at the gate looked a lot like the current crop of vandals and visigoths invading our lands today

  8. Hey, don’t knock it Steve, as that’s the way we used to obtain football tickets for the big game (to scalp for extra video-game and record-album money). We’d get down there to camp out on Friday afternoon after class, and by Sunday, after 2 days of drinking PJ (a bunch of fruit thrown into a 40-gallon plastic trash can otherwise full of hard liquor and ice) and catching frisbees in the sticker bushes, we really weren’t sure if we even wanted admission and what the tickets were for.

    Is that, perhaps, the way the Border Patrol should handle it?

  9. the current crop of [V]andals and [V]isigoths

    You apologize to those nations right this minute! They did nothing to merit such a comparison.

  10. bomag says:

    At least Harvard alums vacate the place (mostly) after a few years, to make room for others.

    Our southern border “applicants” will be here forever, plus an organic increase, until the press of the bodies becomes so great that we all go insane. Which is now.

    • Replies: @WowJustWow
  11. @Michael S

    Yes, but the benefit of being a Harvard student or professor is that the rules don’t apply to you.

    I was going to say, “No, you make the rules.”

    But no. It’s Yalies who get to do that.

    Thank God for Penn!

  12. Anon[387] • Disclaimer says:

    How does Israel deal with these issues?

    • LOL: Mr McKenna
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    , @IHTG
  13. @Ron Mexico

    That’s the magic of parables. That Jesus was no dummy. Yes pls everyone use this example complete with subtly sardonic tone as much as possible.

  14. @Anon

    There was a little Gaza like action on the border last year. It stopped. Trump and the GOP cucks had better do something.

  15. songbird says:
    @Anonymous

    There were some densely-packed concept designs of the A380, where they were talking about fitting in 1000 seats. Of course, you need long runways.

  16. @bomag

    Imagine a Wellesley girl who rides the bang bus to a Harvard party, meets somebody she believes is a dashing young Haven Monahan but is actually a Will Hunting, gets knocked up, and it guarantees her kid admission on a legacy basis despite the fact she never matriculated there.

    • Replies: @Endgame Napoleon
  17. goatweed says:

    American bases in SW Asia are surrounded by British Hesco bastions, tough fabric and steel containers. Filled up with free soil, rocks, gravel, and sand from federal lands in the west and stacked over 30 feet high, garnished with barbed wire and using ever ground surveillance radar and camera in the US military, they would give a cheap way to keep aliens away from American lawyers and judges.

  18. J.Ross says: • Website

    That militia leader who was charged with possessing weapons as a felon is now being accused of some kind of conspiracy to assassinate several top level, well-protected public figures he surely would never be able to get close to. But he’s not being charged with that, and feds are offering no evidence of these additional claims, or substantiation (was this a compact? an individual plot? were suspicious materials bought?). This is Muellerism — instead of charges and evidence, targeted dissidents are investigated without basis and detained without cause. Enough to screw up their life. After that maybe they can just be let go. The message has been sent.
    https://archive.fo/vFrVu

  19. I’d take the University analogy much further. Regarding Harvard, and similar selective universities, Tyler Cowen wrote:

    Step back from the emotions of the current debate and start with the general point that social elites need to replicate themselves, one way or another. Otherwise they tend to fade away.

    Cowen is nothing that universities treat their “identity” and “cultural continuity” as sacred. It is enforced by very selective and exclusive membership. The incumbent members are involved in choosing the next generation of members to enhance this.

    Elsewhere, cultural continuity is defined:

    culture as something that is potentially enduring or continuously linked through processes of historical transformation with an identifiable past of tradition”.

    This is discussed regarding Native American tribes, who have high rates of suicide and broadly lost the will to live as a people when they feel their tribal identities are undermined outside of their control.

    It seems that if universities treat identity and cultural continuity as a sacred asset and enforce this by very selective membership, it seems nations should be able to do the same.

  20. Clearly, each applicant who shows up at Harvard’s campus must be provisionally admitted based solely on a claim that he has a “well founded fear” that he will suffer “persecution” without an Ivy League degree.

    And, of course, if they bring a small child with them you can’t ask them to leave. And if anyone says their parents brought them to the campus they are “dreamers” and you also can’t ever ask them to leave.

    Bottom line: Everyone gets in. After all, “inclusion” is who you are.

    • Replies: @res
  21. Adrian E. says:

    Some countries used to have an embassy asylum process. People submitted asylum applications at embassies, and if the first stages of the check about the conditions for asylum were positive, temporary visa were granted in order to complete the asylum process.

    Some people who are really persecuted in their home country might have to submit the asylum application in a neighboring country. Then, of course, the question arises why they can’t stay in that neighboring country. But there can be cases when people can stay there only temporarily and the conditions for asylum in a third country are still fulfilled.

    Until recently, Switzerland used to offer asylum application options at embassies (alongside the other option of coming into the country without a visa and asking for asylum there). Recently, this was abolished. The main argument was that all EU countries had abolished embassy asylum (if they had ever offered it, as some had in the past), and too many people would ask for asylum in Switzerland if it was the only European country offering embassy asylum. That may be understandable, but then, the question is why EU countries don’t offer embassy asylum and try to make it the standard for submitting asylum applications.

    I guess it is a kind of irrational compromise. In general, promoting the submission of asylum applications at embassies would be good for a) improving the situation of people who really qualify for refugee status and allowing them to travel safely and b) diminishing the influx of people who don’t qualify for refugee status, but still often cannot be sent back once they are in the country in which they asked for asylum. But it seems that embassy asylum is rejected by a coalition of anti-immigration advocates who are against it because some of the embassy asylum applicants might not have made it to the border and they want to prevent asylum applications wherever possible and pro-migration advocates who fear that embassy asylum might de legitimize the uncontrolled migration movements towards rich countries. There also seems to be a bias that as long as people are far away, they are not considered important – so why offer them the option of submitting asylum applications -, but as soon as they turn up at the border, they are included in the circle of compassion.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  22. The real beauty in this analogy is that two of the four leftists on the Supreme Court (Breyer and Kagan) earned their JD from Harvard, while Ginsburg attended for a while. Of course they won’t try to be any more consistent about that than they would about their views on Israeli immigration policy, but at least you can say it without being called an anti-Semite.

    Incidentally Derrick Watson, the Hawaiian judge who tried to foil Trump’s “travel ban,” earned both his bachelor’s and his JD at Harvard.

  23. Anonymous[404] • Disclaimer says:

    Steve, obviously you don’t understand what ‘open borders’ actually mean, ie, it means exactly that – a ‘border’ means no more legally and geographically than a random chalk line scrawled on the sidewalk.

    In case you haven’t noticed this is *the* political orthodoxy as espoused by the Deep State and The Economist etc.

  24. IHTG says:
    @Anon

    If a migrant gets in and is from a country that the High Court has decided you can’t deport back to, he gets to stay forever.

  25. @Adrian E.

    Trump ought to use his awesome negotiating skills to carve out a no man’s land in Mexico a la the Guantanamo Bay lease.

    It would be used as an asylum reception and processing center. No more overland asylum applicants released on our side of the border.

    • Agree: Dtbb
    • Replies: @attilathehen
  26. apparently at one point in the past you had to actually go to the airport to buy a ticket for an airplane flight that you wanted to take. no telephone sales even. buy it in person at the airport you wanted to fly from, or you didn’t fly.

    that’s what i heard, anyway.

    how much would that system have sucked.

  27. @Reg Cæsar

    But it’s best of all when they work together!

    • Replies: @anon
  28. The American situation is different, but I can tell you the European situation is often driven by morally dubious individuals exploiting the chaos in the Middle East for their own needs.

    I know of a do-gooder young women who went to the refugee camps in northern Greece to help with the Syrian refugee problem. She left after discovering three sources of exploitation:

    1. There are two groups of Western helpers there. The first are middle-aged single women – cat-lady types. Ostensibly there to help refugees, they are basically sex tourists after the masses of single young warzone men. These women are in a similar category as the ladies who travel to Greece, Spain, Jamaica etc for ‘romance’, but more exploitative.

    2. The second group of Westerners are male pedophiles attracted by the prospect of abusing vulnerable young unaccompanied children. Many of the charitable institutions – Oxfam etc – are riddled with these men, often in leadership positions. Charities act as moral camouflage.

    3. Local businessmen are subcontracted by the EU/Greek government and charities to look after the refugees are paid enormous amounts of money. They then siphon off the money and give the refugees food which is barely above dog-food, and sub-standard accommodation.

  29. We didn’t have all these immigrants from Central America when United Fruit Company ran the place.

  30. anon[328] • Disclaimer says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    Without the robes, you could be forgiven for thinking that was a bunch of loons at the Nut Farm.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  31. Oh this is brilliant. What better way to monkeywrench the sick and twisted higher education system and expose the sickness of its egalitarian ideology than for thousands of boyz and girlz from the hood and the barrio to flood into the classrooms of Harvard, Yale etc and demand educational services. After all, “There are no illegal students”.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  32. Laughing.

    Though apparently, it has been common place for campus security to be neutered from preventing “real” violations of violent behavior as opposed to the manufactured cases not uncommonly cooked up in board rooms and administrative offices to deal with untidy politics.

    Ohh, very much like how our US forces are neutered at the border. Invade Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, bomb, Yemen and Libya into the stone age (not much of a leap) threaten to make war on Venezuela, and Iran, but by all means when confronted by Mexicans on US soil, fold like a cheap suit.

    Ohhh that sounds familiar.

  33. Mr. Anon says:
    @Michael S

    Yes, but the benefit of being a Harvard student or professor is that the rules don’t apply to you.

    Class has it’s privileges and hypocrisy is one of them.

  34. Mr. Anon says:
    @Mike_from_SGV

    Oh this is brilliant. What better way to monkeywrench the sick and twisted higher education system and expose the sickness of its egalitarian ideology than for thousands of boyz and girlz from the hood and the barrio to flood into the classrooms of Harvard, Yale etc and demand educational services. After all, “There are no illegal students”.

    It wouldn’t take too much nudging to get some black activists to actually go do this. It could become a real thing. Perhaps some subtle trolling at “The Root” and other such sites. Hey, 4chan, are you listening?

  35. I like the counter-factual where we act on the premise that intelligence is just a matter of educational inputs and education itself is completely path-dependent on pedagogical method. So we just pick the bestest ever college in the world, Harvard, and just build Harvards everywhere and have the Harvard lecturers train them. Let a thousand Harvards bloom! We’d have literally an entire nation of Harvard grads inventing Facebooks!

    And since all these geniuses couldn’t be expected to change oil and clean houses and install plumbing, we’d have to open the borders! But that would be all right because it would GROW THE ECONOMY! The one billion coolies we bring in could just get Costco memberships and get rich by selling toilet paper to each other!

    Heaven is within our grasp!

  36. @Reg Cæsar

    Interesting

    I am the same age as Steve.

    When I was applying for college, Penn had a pretty mediocre reputation, except for Wharton. It was the ONLY Ivy not on the Most Selective list. To add insult to injury, there were two colleges in the Philadelphia suburbs, Haverford and Swarthmore, which were on the most selective list, and another, Bryan Marr (sp) which was on the Highly Selective list along with Penn.

    In those days nobody wanted to live in West Philadelphia. Not even Will Smith.

    The gap got bigger when Dukakis, a Swarthmore alumnus, ran for president. For a few years after that, Swarthmore was more selective than HYPS.

    These days the Ivy brand has revitalized Penn. Being a big city Ivy makes it one of the toughest schools in the country to get into outside HYPS and a bigger city Ivy, Columbia.

  37. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    These days the Ivy brand has revitalized Penn.

    The Ivy brand was always there, wasn’t it? What changed?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Desiderius
  38. @anon

    Without the robes, you could be forgiven for thinking that was a bunch of loons at the Nut Farm.

    The colored guy, the sanest of the lot, must be the groundskeeper!

  39. @Paleo Liberal

    Bryan Marr (sp)

    Bryn Mawr. Welsh is all over the Philly ‘burbs– esp. Bala Cynwyd.

    There is a Bryn Mawr neighborhood in Minneapolis, too. Why, you got me. Like Walter Kirn’s exurban Marine-on-St-Croix , it’s surrounded by park and kind of protected and idyllic.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryn_Mawr,_Minneapolis

    https://www.bmna.org/

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  40. @Anonymous

    The Ivy brand was always there, wasn’t it? What changed?

    It hasn’t always been there. It’s a sports league:

    “The term “Ivy League” came about in 1954, when the NCAA athletic conference for Division I was formed. At the time, the elitism of these schools was really due to their prestige in the realm of sports like basketball. ”

    THE HISTORY OF THE IVY LEAGUE

    Ivy League football star eschewing stability for long-shot NFL bid

  41. @Reg Cæsar

    The sports leagues were preceded by an already recognized elitism of the institutions. The sports were another part of it.

    Some of it depended on how big sports were, and whether the school wanted to be a small school or a big university. For example, Penn’s biggest rivals in football were Haverford and Swarthmore, which are now small D-III schools without football teams.

    Similarly, there is an academic association in the Midwest which preceded the Big 10. Chicago is still part of this academic conference. At one point they were a big football power house as well. The original lyrics to the fight song “On Wisconsin” were:

    On Wisconsin, on Wisconsin
    Break on through that line
    Run the ball clear ‘round Chicago
    Touchdown sure this time

    When the Big 10 was formed, Chicago downgraded sports, but stayed in the academic association. Some of the later additions to the athletic conference are not in the academic association.

    So the idea was the Ivies were originally a subset of the elite East Coast schools with big football programs. MIT, Amherst, Haverford and Swarthmore were elite schools but not football power houses.

    Over the decades the association with Ivy and elite school became large enough that even the lesser Ivies became very sought after schools.

    Interesting, there is a much older conference in a sport NOT part of the NCAA which does include MIT. The oldest inter-mural sport is men’s rowing. The oldest varsity team in any sport is the Yale men’s rowing team. The oldest continuous collegiate sporting in North America is the Harvard-Yale rowing race. Men’s rowing teams, men’s rowing clubs and women’s rowing clubs are all governed by the IRA — Intercollegiate Rowing Association. Women’s teams are NCAA and have scholarships.

    All of the big rowing teams east of the Mississippi are in the oldest sports conference— the Eastern Conference. This includes the Ivies, MIT, Boston U, Northeastern, Georgetown, Navy, and even two Big 10
    Schools — Wisconsin and Rutgers. The other big rowing conference is the PAC 12. There are a few lesser conferences, such as the MACRA in the Midwest, mostly dominated by Michigan. So all the Ivies row in the Eastern conference. The Big 10 schools row in the Eastern or MACRA, and PAC 12 in the PAC 12.

    Similarly, the hockey conferences are different. Wisconsin is a big power house in hockey. Until a few years ago they were in the same conference as North Dakota, Northern Michigan, and other such hockey power houses. The Big 10 put a lot of pressure on Wisconsin to abandon these small hockey schools and move to the Big 10.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Reg Cæsar
  42. @Chrisnonymous

    No. A wall would be the barrier.

    Meanwhile, look at what happened to the border milita leader:

    http://news.trust.org/item/20190424121135-e0bd6

  43. Maybe the proper analogy is transfer applicants from lowly ranked schools moving to Cambridge before their grades and SAT scores are presented for consideration.

    If the U.S. is Harvard, we’re consistently getting resident transfer applicants from schools so poor that they’re embarrassed to be ranked and refuse to submit their information.

  44. @Reg Cæsar

    There are some Welsh in this part of Wisconsin as well. The most famous being Frank Lloyd Wright.

    My family used to be neighbors with another talented Welsh-American architect named Faye Jones. His family saved the life of one of my dogs. Twice. So as far as I am concerned, Faye Jones was a very fine man.

    Interesting story. FLW saw that Faye Jones was an extremely talented Welsh-American architect, and took young Faye under his wing.

    Mrs. Jones told an interesting story.

    One summer Wright invited young Faye Jones and his wife to spend the summer in Taliesen as Wright’s personal guest. No aspiring architect would decline that offer.

    When they got to Taliesin, they had an interesting surprise. Frank Lloyd Wright neglected to tell anyone, including Mrs. Wright, that the Jones family were coming and had almost forgotten. Plans had to be made in haste after the Jones’ arrival.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  45. res says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    And, of course, if they bring a small child with them you can’t ask them to leave. And if anyone says their parents brought them to the campus they are “dreamers” and you also can’t ever ask them to leave.

    That raises another question. If someone is born on the Harvard campus should they automatically be admitted to the college? Imagine the “birthing shack on the edge of campus” concession.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
  46. @res

    Good point. And of course a “birthright degree” must be extended to all of the children born on campus.

  47. @WowJustWow

    It is more like a 25-year-old graduate of the 6th grade, with several kids under 5 conceived and born in another country, applying to Harvard by skipping the formal admissions process. She walks thousands of miles, crossing national and state borders, with her ticket to Harvard admission in hand. Her ticket to ride is not a stand-out essay, a 4.0 in high school, a top-notch SAT score or an in-person interview in the English language. Other than her 20-day waiting period on Harvard’s spartan campus—financed by billions of taxpayer (or alumni) dollars, with the MSMers screaming that her accommodations are not good enough—she need not bother with any more hoop-jumping to be released onto Harvard’s campus to await a hearing that determines whether she can stay long-term. Everything she needed to skip to the front of the admissions line was done back home: reproduction.

  48. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    Over the decades the association with Ivy and elite school became large enough that even the lesser Ivies became very sought after schools.

    Has the prestige of Ivy schools increased in recent decades? If so, why? Why wasn’t the association as potent for Penn in the past, compared to now?

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  49. I remember many years ago I was teaching college and I had a Cambodian refugee student who had been through the Killing Fields. She said her family was very lucky because only one of her sisters died and neither of her parents.

    There were refugee camps in Thailand. The Thais did not exactly encourage refugees. According to this young lady, the Thais has machine guns at the border to dissuade people from crossing.

    Which meant they snuck over at night. Barefoot through the mine fields the Thais had so generously provided. Because once they got into the UN refugee camp they couldn’t be sent back. The Thais tried to discourage Cambodians from coming in the first place.

    I am not in favor of machine guns and mine fields to keep the Central Americans out. But here is a thought experiment. Suppose the only way to cross into the US were to tiptoe through the tulips, um, mine fields, with machine guns ready to shoot if you crossed during the day? My point is, those Cambodians were really anxious to leave Cambodia. I don’t think Honduras is a fraction as scary.

  50. @Paleo Liberal

    Bryan Marr (sp) which was on the Highly Selective list along with Penn.

    Bryn Mawr (Welsh for large hill). They cheated by only admitting lesbians but not telling anyone.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  51. @Desiderius

    Bryn Mawr (Welsh for large hill). They cheated by only admitting lesbians but not telling anyone.

    Do the women they admit have large hills?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  52. @Desiderius

    Asians are a YUGE part of it, but not all of it.

    The sort of people who HAVE to have a Louis Vuitton or Hermes bag when a Coach or Gucci would do are the sort of people who would HAVE to send their kids to an Ivy when Amherst or Oberlin or Reed would do.

    And yes, Asians are heavily over-represented in this group.

    This is why a generation ago Haverford and Swarthmore were more exclusive than Penn. They were colleges with great reputations in very nice Philadelphia suburbs (Haverford is Main Line, Swarthmore is Media Line). Penn was the ugly red headed stepchild of the Ivy League in a crappy area in West Philly. Penn was where people who couldn’t get into Princeton or Haverford or Swarthmore went as a consolation prize. Now Haverford and Swarthmore and Bryn Mawr are the consolation prize for people who can’t get into Penn. Penn is more prestigious ’cause Ivy.

    I must say, I attended a big name small liberal arts college back in the day. Right after graduation, I went to live in Asia for a while. NOBODY had heard of the place. Not only that, but Snooty College had a negative cache in Asia. In some parts of Asia. “college” is the term they use for the equivalent of a community college. I was a college graduate competing for jobs with undergrads from actual universities, such as Georgetown (which is fairly prestigious, but not as much as Snooty College) and undergrads from “universities” were in much better shape than a graduate of a “college”. If I had gone to South Bumfug State University, that would’ve have more cache in those days in Asia than Snooty College.

    And an Ivy? Well, that is a brand that has TONS of cache in Asia. Even the ugly redheaded stepchild of the Ivies is a super hot commodity.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  53. @Paleo Liberal

    Lesbians tend to have large everything.

  54. @Reg Cæsar

    Yes, not all Ivies are equal. At Cornell you can major in Hotel Management, something most of the others wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole. Penn, for its part, carries a taint on account of having a business major; you can’t major in business at a Princeton or Harvard. (As indeed you shouldn’t, if you’re after a real education.)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  55. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    Asians.

    Asians improved the competence of the student bodies and faculties at Ivies?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  56. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    And an Ivy? Well, that is a brand that has TONS of cache in Asia. Even the ugly redheaded stepchild of the Ivies is a super hot commodity.

    Well, okay. But Asians have always existed. So again, what has changed?

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  57. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @International Jew

    (As indeed you shouldn’t, if you’re after a real education.)

    What don’t you consider “Business” a real education? There are plenty of rigorous, analytical classes in the course requirements.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  58. @Paleo Liberal

    There are some Welsh in this part of Wisconsin as well.

    Were they miners, like the Cornish?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  59. @Anonymous

    What don’t you consider “Business” a real education?

    No, it’s training. That’s why in Europe it’s done in institutes, not universities.

    Really, you should learn business on the job. It used to be that way. I’ve known liberal arts graduates who were snapped up by major firms and trained in-house. Of course, if any are still alive, they’d be pushing 100.

    It’s no accident that some, perhaps all, of the biggest figures in business of the last 20 or so years were college dropouts– Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg.

    Nothing says “today’s education” like this typo in a People profile of Steve Wozniak 25 years ago:

    Still, Wozniak has plans to get a leaching certificate lo become a full-time elementary school instructor.

    https://people.com/archive/wizard-of-woz-vol-41-no-6/

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  60. @Reg Cæsar

    Minors for the Green and Gold.

  61. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    No, it’s training. That’s why in Europe it’s done in institutes, not universities.

    What distinction do you see between “training” and “education”?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  62. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    Sadly, no.

    Well something has made the Ivies more prestigious than they used to be.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  63. @Reg Cæsar

    I have had to explain to various people here in Hong Kong that the Ivy League is a sports league, and that Stanford, Duke, Chicago, etc. are not Ivy League universities.

    This leaves some of them quite bewildered: they had always assumed ‘the Ivy League’ simple equals ‘the most famous and (therefore) the best universities in the USA’.

    The concept that something as trivial as sports teams’ affiliation might define something so hallowed in Chinese culture as ‘best universities’ is very hard to process here.

  64. @Anonymous

    When I was in Snooty College, there were exactly three students from the People’s Republic of China there. All three were from families with quite a bit of political pull. I spent a day in China not long after graduation. It was extremely poor.

    Taiwan and South Korea were richer in those days, but still poor compared to the US.

    These days there are quite a few crazy rich Asians. They have money up the wazoo. They want their kids to go to Ivy League schools. There are also more rich Europeans. There are more rich Americans. In fact, while the middle class in the West has stagnated, there are a lot more very wealthy people in the world, and a lot of them want their kids to go to the best colleges. In their minds, that means the Ivies.

    And American colleges now take FAR more foreign students than they did in the old days. When I was at Snooty College, there were a handful of foreign students, but Americans vastly outnumbered the foreigners.

    On top of that, there have been millions and millions of Asians who immigrated to the US during that time. They want their kids to go to the best colleges. In their minds, that means the Ivies.

    When I was at Snooty College, there were a handful of Asian Americans there. Mostly from California, although I did know a guy from New Jersey. Now there are a LOT of them.

    THAT is what has changed.

    These days the second tier colleges, such as AOC’s alma matter BU, are vastly more selective than Harvard was in the old days. Seriously. Look up what percentage of applicants Harvard admitted back in the 1970s. There are plenty of State Universities these days, not all of them in California, which are more selective in 2019 than Harvard was in 1979. Pretty much all the Ivies are below 10%. HYPS are all below 6%, and some are below 5%.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  65. @Anonymous

    In 1970 U Penn accepted 70% of applicants.
    For 2019, they accepted about 7.5% of applicants.

    As I have said before, Penn was the ugly redheaded stepchild of the Ivy League. It was better than Penn State, but it was about the 4th best college just in the Philly area.

    As I mentioned, nobody wanted to live in West Philly. It was a truly crappy area.

    In those days, many people did not go to college. State universities were extremely cheap, if not free, so people who DID go to college tended to go to State U rather than the Ivies, which didn’t give much in the way of financial aid.

    Since then:

    The number of places in the Ivies is the same.
    They accept women, so twice as many applicants right there.
    The population of the US has increased, and many are children of smart people from Asia and other places.
    They take in a lot of foreign students, so actually fewer places.
    Ivies give great financial aid, so often cheaper than State U. (I have a kid at a second tier college, and it is cheaper than in state tuition at Wisconsin. An Ivy would be even cheaper).
    People who would only apply to State U now apply to TONS of schools.

    And so on.

    In the old days, there were several tiers of Ivy League schools. HYP at the top, then places like Columbia, Cornell and Dartmouth. Brown and Penn were at the bottom, until Brown became more popular.

    The Ivy tide raised all the boats in the Ivy League. But there are people who want their kids to go to ANY Ivy. So that includes Penn.

    The acceptance rate at Harvard went from about 35% to less than 5%.
    The acceptance rate at Penn went from about 70% to 7.5 %

    A lot of it is the prestige of the better Ivies has spread to the lesser Ivies. And Penn was the least of the Ivies. So their prestige has gone up the most.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  66. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    They want their kids to go to the best colleges. In their minds, that means the Ivies.

    Your commentary about foreigners is instructive. Thank you. But why is it that those Asians who are residents or natives of the United States prize so highly “Ivies” versus other good schools?

    And why has BU, which is not an Ivy, become more selective? Just because of increased overall volume of foreign applicants, even if Ivies are more focused on than ever?

  67. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    Thank you, Paleo Liberal.

    Do you think this trend is positive, negative, neither?

  68. @Anonymous

    Obviously it’s the quality of the leaders they’ve been producing.

    Look at the national media for instance. Since they went full Ivy they’ve just gotten better and better. Ask them, they’ll tell you.

  69. @Anonymous

    What distinction do you see between “training” and “education”?

    You see no difference between engineering and science? Or philosophy, for that matter?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  70. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    You see no difference between engineering and science? Or philosophy, for that matter?

    They are differences I am trying to appreciate. You may be surprised that it is not so obvious to some people.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @FPD72
  71. @Paleo Liberal

    Similarly, the hockey conferences are different. Wisconsin is a big power house in hockey. Until a few years ago they were in the same conference as North Dakota, Northern Michigan, and other such hockey power houses. The Big 10 put a lot of pressure on Wisconsin to abandon these small hockey schools and move to the Big 10.

    They may be small, but in hockey?

    I remember when NCAA soccer was dominated by St Louis, San Francisco (both Jesuit), and minuscule Hartwick, who topped the NCAA in Scott Adams’s junior year there. They could do this because the big schools weren’t interested in the sport.

    Yet. Now they are, and they dominate.

    Has the same thing happened in hockey? Not all that long ago, engineering schools in the Northeast were king of the hill– RPI, Clarkson, Worcester.

    Why the hell is Bowling Green a hockey power now? Did Scott Hamilton buy everyone in his hometown a pair of skates?

  72. @Anonymous

    So we’ve established that you’re either an AI in training, a twelve-year-old, or a millenial product of our finest institutions of higher learning.

    Your thirst for knowledge does cast doubt on the third, however.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  73. @The Anti-Gnostic

    So we just pick the bestest ever college in the world, Harvard, and just build Harvards everywhere

    In all seriousness, that’s exactly what society should do. Franchise Harvard.

    Look at adult fitness + group exercise. Find the best curriculum and scale up. CrossFit built locations all over the globe to spread their fitness education. Do the same with math and engineering.

    You were being sarcastic. I am serious. I love math + engineering. Spread it all over the world. Make it as accessible as possible. And I say this out of love for STEM, not a resentment towards the status quo.

  74. Anonymous[105] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    So we’ve established that you’re either an AI in training, a twelve-year-old, or a millenial product of our finest institutions of higher learning. Your thirst for knowledge does cast doubt on the third, however.

    No one has managed to draw a satisfying distinction between “education” and “training.”

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  75. FPD72 says:
    @Anonymous

    Yeah, I got an earful of that “engineers are trained, not educated” from a professor in graduate school one class. The prof had attended a private liberal arts school for his undergraduate degree and had very little interaction with engineers. After class I went up to him and informed him that it was a one way street from Engineering to Liberal Arts; nobody ever flunked out of Liberal Arts into Engineering, while the deans list in the College of Arts & Sciences was littered with guys who had flunked out of Engineering. He had no idea.

    Believe me, when your course load for a semester is Analytical Geometry and Calculus III, Physics II, Statics, Electrical Circuits, Advanced Programming, and English Literature and Composition, while working as a computer operator for 15 hours every week, English is the class you let slide for everything else.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  76. @FPD72

    English is the class you let slide for everything else

    So then he was correct. His argument was not about rigor.

  77. @The Anti-Gnostic

    Harvard, obviously, is not in the business of democratization.

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