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Baseball doesn’t change much and it’s so statistically well documented that what changes it does undergo are straightforward enough to be explained better than most historical changes. So it attracts the historically minded.
To compare look-alike World Series games, this 7-6 11 inning Astros win in Game 2 in 2017 vs the famous Boston Red Sox 7 – Cincinnati Reds 6 12 inning Game 6 in 1975, this game had 8 homers versus 4 in 1975 (including Bernie Carbo’s pinch hit 3 run blast in the 8th and Carlton Fisk’s game-winner down the foul line in the 12th).
This game had 19 strikeouts compared to 14 in one extra inning in 1975.
This game took 4:19 minutes for 11 innings vs. 4:01 minutes for 12 innings (with Fisk’s walk-off in the bottom of the 12th coming with nobody out) in 1975, so World Series games were played about 17% to 20% faster back then.
But that’s not as radical a difference as the famous Pirates 10 – Yankees 9 Bill Mazeroski game 7 in the 1960 World Series that took only 2:36 because nobody on either team struck out.
That 1960 game’s quickness might have been an anomaly even back then.
In 1962 the L.A. Dodgers and S.F. Giants finished the new 162 game regular season tied at 101-61. They played in a 3 game playoff to decide who played the Yankees in the World Series. In the 164th game of the season, the Dodgers stayed alive by winning 8-7 in 9 innings in 4 hours and 18 minutes. I believe that was a new record for longest game at that point. That game included 13 pitchers, 13 strikeouts, and 13 walks. That 1962 league playoff isn’t well-remembered (especially compared to the 1951 playoff between the N.Y. Giants and the Brooklyn Dodgers won on Bobby Thomson’s 3-run walkoff homer), but it would seem like that 164th game in 1962 was the Game of the Future
So, that suggests the slowness of current games is largely due to everybody trying harder all the time.
When two archrivals 55 years ago were in a game to see who went to the World Series, they could play as slowly as 2017 teams. But they didn’t do that regularly because they weren’t being paid enough.
The highest paid player on the field in that 1962 game was 31 year old Willie Mays, who was being paid $75,000 to hit .304 with 49 homers and 141 RBIs. (According to Baseball Reference, Willie had had his salary cut from $160,000 in 1959. Other sources say Willie Mays was paid $90,000 in 1962, up from $75,000 in 1959.) In contrast, the Astros’ starting pitcher Jason Verlander is getting $28,000,000 for his efforts in 2017, while the Dodgers’ Clayton Kershaw is paid over $35,000,000.
In 1962, the winner’s share in the World Series was just under $10,000 and the loser’s share was just over $7,000. That doesn’t sound like too much, but it was certainly motivating to the players. The 1962 World Series came down to a 7th game. In the bottom of the 9th the NY Yankees led the SF Giants 1-0 with 2 outs and Matty Alou on third and Willie Mays on second.
Future Hall of Famer Willie McCovey ripped the ball, but right at second baseman Bobby Richardson for the last out.
McCovey, the 1959 Rookie of the Year, made $17,500 in 1962, so getting past the Dodgers to the World Series that year increased his baseball pay by about 40%.
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I’ve notice the media lamenting the length of games lately, even to the point of proposing a pitch clock or other gimmicks, yet is largely silent about the 3+ minute commercial breaks between innings. With 17 half-inning breaks, that is 51 minutes. Cut the commercials in half and you save 25 minutes right there.
Here's an idea, how about he makes $350K a year and we have no commercials. I'm way cool with that.
Yes, the commercials, strikeouts, walks and pitching changes are killing the likelihood of fast paced, entertaining games.
Here it is, Thursday morning and I’m paying the price for staying up late and watching that Dodgers game last night.
I remember the 1962 Series finale quite well as it was quite an exciting experience for an 11 year old boy. The film clip doesn’t do justice to the drama however and doesn’t really give a good picture of Richardson’s catch. As I recall, the ball was almost over his head but he managed to get his glove up in time. Being a Yankees fan and having just been given a case of the “Willies”, I was pumped and went outside and immediately rode my bicycle as hard as I could around the neighborhood to blow off the tension! (Back when it was reasonably safe to actually ride a bicycle around the neighborhood).
Isn’t it possible that TV commercials constitute a significant increase in overall playing time?
I fell asleep last night after Verlander gave up the homer giving the Dodgers a 3-1 lead. I thought there was no way the Astros come back after that. Incidentally, the homer was something we unfortunately became accustomed to seeing in Detroit; JV, still upset about a call to the last batter, makes a bad pitch. Last night in that inning, JV had the lead-off batter 2-2 and he threw two balls and either could have been called strikes, especially ball 4. Then, despite Joe Buck’s comment about how JV simply shrugs off bad calls, he then gives up an HR. Like I’ve said previously, I would never bet against Verlander, but he has some chinks in the armor. One is that he wants to strike EVERYONE out, instead of pitching to contact at least sometimes. It causes his pitch count to climb and really overworks himself. Second, whenever there is a close call, he tends to let it affect him mentally.
Gosh it’s easy criticizing one of MLB’s best pitchers, especially since I never made it past Little League.
And I hate to interrupt your flow of baseball posts, but there is racist cereal on the loose in Battle Creek, Michigan:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjX_-zurI7XAhVizoMKHRSjDcQQFgg-MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdetroit.cbslocal.com%2F2017%2F10%2F26%2Fkelloggs-under-fire-for-racist-corn-pops-boxes%2F&usg=AOvVaw329TDj0Q1UESlfjFmoaoKl
I was pissed too, I’ve never seen a no-hitter in person and that was my best shot.Replies: @Steve from Detroit
I thought part of the difference now in the length of games was the time between half innings was extended to add commercials for TV. Once TV became the major revenue source for the league they started catering to what they wanted.
The new flat-seam ball in college baseball is having the desired effect, with teams hitting 40 percent more home runs after they changed the ball. The NCAA introduced the flatter seamed ball with the stated aim of increasing Home runs. The flatter-seamed ball has a seam height of .031 inches compared to .048 inches for a raised-seam ball. The NCAA Committee members made the decision to change to a flat-seamed baseball after research showed that flat-seamed baseballs launched out of a pitching machine at averages of 95 mph traveled 20 feet further. The NCAA’s official supplier of baseballs, Rawlings, also conducted testing of the flat-seam balls in its own research lab. That research was consistent with the findings in the WSU lab, the balls travel 5% further causing routine fly balls to go over the fence.nJust as predicted by physics, the distance the baseball travels is increased due to less drag on the baseball.
MLB also introduced a new flat-seam ball which had the same effect in the MLB, Home runs increased by 47% after they changed the balls. Two studies confirms that home runs are up due to a change in the baseball. http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/06/29/a-second-study-confirms-that-home-runs-are-up-due-to-a-change-in-the-baseball/
Now that it is easier for an average hitter to go yard, we will continue to see more strike-outs as most players will be able to hit 20 home-runs each year. Players who hit 20 home runs with the older balls will be expected to hit 30 home runs with the newer balls. Will have less effect on players who were home run hitters, as home run hitters who previously hit 40 home runs will get less benefit, boosting their number s by just 20% while the weaker players will see their home runs increase by 50%.
I'm the guy who's been saying "moderately deaden the ball." Now I learn that the shortsighted, greedy industry jacked it up, greatly reducing the most interesting aspects of its product in an effort to draw in dullards. Welcome to the HR/K/W world of bashball, where the focus (and money) is on the stud pitchers and sluggers.
If you deeply appreciate anything in today's America, then you should hope that it doesn't catch on enough to be the subject of earnings calls and monthly financial reports.
Well, the commercials are what brings in the Big Money; the players should do their part to move the game along to not lose fan interest. Or take a corresponding pay cut so there are fewer commercials.
OT but of interest in UR
https://angrybearblog.com/2017/10/genetics-as-an-omitted-variable-in-psychology-and-social-science.html
Gotta get baseball off network TV. When there are no commercials to be shown, the game will shorten dramatically.
How does soccer do it? Those games aren’t interrupted by commercials, but European leagues seem to be making $. Is TV revenue less important in Europe? Anybody know?
I suppose Steve Sailer wasn’t online yet in 1988, so this is the first time the internet has seen him bleeding Dodger blue.
How racism persists
Confederates and their supporters are traitors to America. Right wing whites have an average IQ of 78. Only when they are dead will they conform to peace like other citizens.
There is a commercial for every pitching change. Don’t think they are three minutes, but still.
How else is Kershaw gonna get his $35Mil…
Here’s an idea, how about he makes $350K a year and we have no commercials. I’m way cool with that.
Yes, the commercials, strikeouts, walks and pitching changes are killing the likelihood of fast paced, entertaining games.
It is ‘Justin’ Verlander.
Fun fact, Bernie Carbo cut my hair about 15 years or more ago. Two stations!
Tonight, I ate steak with black truffle potato chips. They are the best chips I’ve ever eaten. Wow! And I drank a bottle of wine and listened to RadioDerb. Then I opened iSteve, only to find new posts on sports.
Sports and opera. Is Steve crazy or dishonest?
One of Baseball’s charms is that games do not follow the clock. They move at their own pace and eventually come to completion, like life itself. This characteristic bores some people when the games are long, but this is a pastime for the thoughtful, the meditative.
Baseball is a game of chess played on a field.
Another reason introspective people like baseball is the game’s consistency over the years. Here Steve can seriously compare games across half a century. Maybe players have gotten stronger — and maybe today’s ball has a Wham-O Superball at its core (home runs again last night) — but those differences are peripheral and incremental.
Third, the game is a lot of fun for kids and young people to play. At the professional level, everything is honed to the limits, but for everybody else who has ever played the game, it contains more action, more hits, more fielding and running the bases, more chances for a crafty kid to steal a base — or to get into a pickle*.
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rPNH8T2vYg
Nobody talked the way you do until the advent of TV, and the need to provide space for commercials, started bloating game-times, which has been aggravated by the sabermetric emphasis on walks, strikeouts and home runs, which rapidly accelerated a persistent long-term trend for more pitching changes. There's nothing meditative, old-fashioned or pastoral about this; without TV and computers we'd be looking at a very different sport.Replies: @Richard, @Buzz Mohawk
It seems unfortunate that Willie Mays had his salary cut – if this is in fact true.
Out of curiosity, I resorted to using the Fed’s own CPI calculator to find that $75,000 in 1962 has the same purchasing power as $617,000 today.
Even if the inflation calculation is distorted, I somehow doubt that $75,000 is anywhere near 25+ million these days. Who in their right mind thinks there is any sports player on this planet worth that much money a year? Don’t get me wrong I would never advocate for limiting their salaries by the bludgeon of government or anything. As a free market principle it is why I don’t invest time in sports by watching it on TV or attending games because I think the players are way overpaid for their boorish behavior. If they ever deflate the sports salary bubble… and the cronyism of getting the public to pay for their stadiums, I’ll revisit the issue.
The World Series winners' share of $10,000 was worth $82,000 in today's dollars, but also subject to about 75% tax, so you'd clear just over $20,000. That's not much compared to what a World Series win is worth to a player today.Replies: @Travis
Good grief! They were still making “newsreels” for movie goers as late as 1962, by which time the only people without television sets were people who couldn’t afford the price of the tickets either.
I guess it goes to show how slowly the economy reacts to technological change.
I mean, they still publish – on a daily basis – newspapers on material made from trees, for goodness sakes. In 1962, the year this newsreel was shot, The New York Daily News had a daily circulation of over two million. Next year, it will drop to five figures.
Richardson had moved over to remove a pebble but did not have time to return to his chosen spot before the pitch to McCovey. Had he done so, he would not have had a chance to catch McCovey’s line drive that would have won the series for the Giants.
Television has ruined baseball in more than one way.
That ‘62 series was a great series. My second favorite AL team and my favorite NL team going at it. In those days, the leagues really meant something; today it’s just “MLB”. Seven games and the good guys hang on to win it. It seems to me that all those late ‘50s and ‘60s series were good, even when my team lost. Maybe that’s because baseball was better then. Maybe it’s because I was young then.
OT, but Mark Halperin, once again, a creepy dude doing creepy stuff, frottage.
http://www.wpxi.com/news/top-stories/stephen-foster-statue-voted-to-be-taken-down/629964575
How about a compromise? Replace the minstrel with a rapper?
Gosh it's easy criticizing one of MLB's best pitchers, especially since I never made it past Little League.
And I hate to interrupt your flow of baseball posts, but there is racist cereal on the loose in Battle Creek, Michigan:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjX_-zurI7XAhVizoMKHRSjDcQQFgg-MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdetroit.cbslocal.com%2F2017%2F10%2F26%2Fkelloggs-under-fire-for-racist-corn-pops-boxes%2F&usg=AOvVaw329TDj0Q1UESlfjFmoaoKlReplies: @Ian M., @Hapalong Cassidy
Corroborating your point about Verlander letting himself get rattled after getting angry: I was at a game in 2011 where Verlander was facing off against Jered Weaver and the Angels, the two best pitchers in the A.L. that year. Verlander had a no-hitter going into the 8th. He got the first two outs quickly. Then Erick Aybar bunted and Verlander made a throwing error to first, putting Aybar on second. The fact that Aybar had bunted really pissed Verlander off, and he started jawing at him. Verlander then promptly gave up a hit to the next batter, losing his no-hit bid.
I was pissed too, I’ve never seen a no-hitter in person and that was my best shot.
Funfact:
At $35 million income for tax year 2017, Clayton Kershaw will pay $7750 Social Security tax + $820.250 Medicare tax + probably about $7,000,000 Federal Income Tax (at, say, an effective rate of 20% of gross income).
The employee’s portion of:
SS tax = 6.2% of W-2 earnings up to $125,000.
Medicare tax = 1.45% of W-2 earnings up to $250,000 plus 2.35% of W-2 earnings over $250,000.
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/questions-and-answers-for-the-additional-medicare-taxReplies: @E. Rekshun
https://angrybearblog.com/2017/10/genetics-as-an-omitted-variable-in-psychology-and-social-science.htmlReplies: @peterike
Now see I was stupid enough to go visit that blog. Not that particular post which is largely just quotes, but otherwise, what a bunch of idiots, especially some of the commenters. I want those fifteen minutes back.
How does soccer do it? Those games aren’t interrupted by commercials, but European leagues seem to be making $. Is TV revenue less important in Europe? Anybody know?Replies: @27 year old, @Pericles
All the team jerseys have a sponsor logo, Chelsea and Man United get 50+ million GBP a year for this. Adidas, Nike, and other companies pay the teams to use their jerseys, shoes, balls, etc, which is even more lucrative, 70+ million pounds a year there for top teams. There is also a wall of ads around the entire field. In England, the Premier League itself has a sponsor, so its the Barclay’s Premier League. I heard they are dropping that deal soon or may have already.
OT: Looks like NAACP is getting into the airline shakedown racket.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/american-airlines-ceo-promises-to-learn-from-naacp/ar-AAu5kbQ?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
We truly have entered the Danegeld age. “Here take some gold and sail your ships to some other town.”
I remember the 1962 Series finale quite well as it was quite an exciting experience for an 11 year old boy. The film clip doesn't do justice to the drama however and doesn't really give a good picture of Richardson's catch. As I recall, the ball was almost over his head but he managed to get his glove up in time. Being a Yankees fan and having just been given a case of the "Willies", I was pumped and went outside and immediately rode my bicycle as hard as I could around the neighborhood to blow off the tension! (Back when it was reasonably safe to actually ride a bicycle around the neighborhood).Replies: @Abe, @FPD72
While somewhere in Queens a young Harvey Weinstein found a potted fern and a quiet corner to do the same.
Sorry, Steve, but I just knew the gods of HBD would cause your Dodgers to blow this one after Puig threw his glove in the 8th inning.
Sports and opera. Is Steve crazy or dishonest?Replies: @AM, @Anonymous, @anonymous
I’d call it normal. It’s kinda of refreshing to read about stuff that isn’t crazy making.
I was pissed too, I’ve never seen a no-hitter in person and that was my best shot.Replies: @Steve from Detroit
You can’t really blame him, it’s what makes the guy such a great competitor. I remember the game you are referencing, and Verlander has had, I think, three no-hit games going into the 8th or 9th inning, one where he was an out away. He does have two no-hitters.
TV time, yes. As to play, probably not that much.
In 2017, 259 minutes for 66 outs is 3.92 minutes per out. In 1975, 241 minutes for 69 outs is 3.49 minutes per out. 1975 length played at 89% of 2017, or about 12% faster. (Fisk’s walk-off with nobody out accounts for 69, not 72 outs in ’75.)
Is 1:29 per half inning the increase in TV commercials between ’75 and ’17? (My guess is commercials were two minutes in ’75, they now appear to be three minutes in the playoffs.)
On the other hand, there were 90 plate appearances in 2017, versus 102 in 1975, so the ’75 length played at 82% of ’17 per plate appearance, or 2017 was about 20% longer.
So some game time increase is due to a slower pace of play. (Is 29 seconds per half inning noticeable?)
But who's counting.
That’s true? I wondered why he was nearly standing behind the 1st baseman when he caught the ball. Was wondering if a one man shift was on. I’d heard about the play but never saw it before. Another reason to hate the Yankees.
And my guess is in 1962, no Yankee fans were mauled and beaten while getting to their cars. Dodgers fans are truly something else. If it isn’t ghetto trash assaulting people it’s surfer gang boys from Palos Verdes Estates. I hope those Astros fans got out in one piece!
Perhaps with the advent of night baseball, MLB games started to become longer. Pre-WWII, when most games started during the day, there was only so much time to play the game (especially when some cities started their games around 4PM (but sometimes at 3PM) during the week in order to get post-work crowds) before dusk came. In the Glory of Their Times, one of the player’s major beefs was that he thought the current MLB games (of the mid. ’60’s) were way too long. “Three hours for a nine inning game is ridiculous!” was basically his complaint. He went on to make the point that back in the day (pre-1930’s when he played) an average MLB game lasted about ninety minutes, and that two hours for a nine inning game, while not uncommon, was quite a long time to play nine innings. Of course there was no televised games in those days either, which may extend games a bit longer due to commercial breaks. And again MLB’s longest extra innings, at 26, lasted about 3 hours and 50 minutes total. It was called because of coming darkness. Think about that: 26 innings played in under four hours, about as long as many regular nine inning MLB games take today.
For whatever the reasons, apparently MLB moved faster to play their games before night baseball and post WWII.
At $35 million income for tax year 2017, Clayton Kershaw will pay $7750 Social Security tax + $820.250 Medicare tax + probably about $7,000,000 Federal Income Tax (at, say, an effective rate of 20% of gross income).
The employee's portion of:
SS tax = 6.2% of W-2 earnings up to $125,000.
Medicare tax = 1.45% of W-2 earnings up to $250,000 plus 2.35% of W-2 earnings over $250,000.Replies: @okie, @EriK
i few years ago some one got a hold of the Pirates star McCutcheon’s pay stub . there were a million deductions for almost every stadium the team played in during that pay period. the way it works now if if you play 3/162 games in another state say in his case MO and IL the state and sometimes locally too they get you, to help pay for those palaces they play in. i assume if you’re on the roster you get taxed like if you are a pitcher and don’t play in the STL series you still get dinged for a percentage of 3/162 of your salary. No one voting in these states and towns objects to these taxes and they probably don’t bring in the real money, but it is another version of the popularity of lodger taxes
In another borough, he’d have been a Bronx Palmer.
AOL didn’t debut until 1991.
Sports and opera. Is Steve crazy or dishonest?Replies: @AM, @Anonymous, @anonymous
This is Trump mindset.
So far it looks like baseball has avoided the BLM-anthem nonsense that’s plaguing the NFL. And the NBA has been losing white audiences for years. So maybe baseball will reclaim its place as the leader among the three. Of course, a lot of whites are taking an interest in Soccer now, but they are mostly hipster SWPL types, who probably think that because Europeans like it, it must be cool.
Baseball is a game of chess played on a field.
Another reason introspective people like baseball is the game's consistency over the years. Here Steve can seriously compare games across half a century. Maybe players have gotten stronger -- and maybe today's ball has a Wham-O Superball at its core (home runs again last night) -- but those differences are peripheral and incremental.
Third, the game is a lot of fun for kids and young people to play. At the professional level, everything is honed to the limits, but for everybody else who has ever played the game, it contains more action, more hits, more fielding and running the bases, more chances for a crafty kid to steal a base -- or to get into a pickle*.
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rPNH8T2vYgReplies: @Richard
No, you’re talking about cricket. Baseball was invented as a fast-paced alternative to those older sports, and if you look up older media, they talked all the time about how baseball reflected the “Get up and go,” can-do spirit of America in contrast to the more languid, less urgent pace of the continent. For 100 years the typical baseball game was completed in two hours or less.
Nobody talked the way you do until the advent of TV, and the need to provide space for commercials, started bloating game-times, which has been aggravated by the sabermetric emphasis on walks, strikeouts and home runs, which rapidly accelerated a persistent long-term trend for more pitching changes. There’s nothing meditative, old-fashioned or pastoral about this; without TV and computers we’d be looking at a very different sport.
How does soccer do it? Those games aren’t interrupted by commercials, but European leagues seem to be making $. Is TV revenue less important in Europe? Anybody know?Replies: @27 year old, @Pericles
Soccer runs terrible blinking ads all around the arena, like it’s the 90s on the web. I hate it and tend not to watch for that reason.
At $35 million income for tax year 2017, Clayton Kershaw will pay $7750 Social Security tax + $820.250 Medicare tax + probably about $7,000,000 Federal Income Tax (at, say, an effective rate of 20% of gross income).
The employee's portion of:
SS tax = 6.2% of W-2 earnings up to $125,000.
Medicare tax = 1.45% of W-2 earnings up to $250,000 plus 2.35% of W-2 earnings over $250,000.Replies: @okie, @EriK
You’re not that familiar with the tax code are you?
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/questions-and-answers-for-the-additional-medicare-tax
= $3635 + $816,625 = $820,250
Where am I wrong.Replies: @EriK
Gosh it's easy criticizing one of MLB's best pitchers, especially since I never made it past Little League.
And I hate to interrupt your flow of baseball posts, but there is racist cereal on the loose in Battle Creek, Michigan:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjX_-zurI7XAhVizoMKHRSjDcQQFgg-MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdetroit.cbslocal.com%2F2017%2F10%2F26%2Fkelloggs-under-fire-for-racist-corn-pops-boxes%2F&usg=AOvVaw329TDj0Q1UESlfjFmoaoKlReplies: @Ian M., @Hapalong Cassidy
As someone who only casually follows baseball, I wasn’t even aware Verlander played for Houston until the postseason. And the only reason I recognize Verlander’s name is because of his incredibly hot girlfriend Kate Upton.
Out of curiosity, I resorted to using the Fed's own CPI calculator to find that $75,000 in 1962 has the same purchasing power as $617,000 today.
Even if the inflation calculation is distorted, I somehow doubt that $75,000 is anywhere near 25+ million these days. Who in their right mind thinks there is any sports player on this planet worth that much money a year? Don't get me wrong I would never advocate for limiting their salaries by the bludgeon of government or anything. As a free market principle it is why I don't invest time in sports by watching it on TV or attending games because I think the players are way overpaid for their boorish behavior. If they ever deflate the sports salary bubble... and the cronyism of getting the public to pay for their stadiums, I'll revisit the issue.Replies: @(((Owen)))
$75,000 was worth $617,000 today, which is a lot of money. But the federal tax bracket on incomes around $100,000 was 75% back then, too.
The World Series winners’ share of $10,000 was worth $82,000 in today’s dollars, but also subject to about 75% tax, so you’d clear just over $20,000. That’s not much compared to what a World Series win is worth to a player today.
The previous year’s share amounts were $370,069 for the World Series champion Kansas City Royals and $300,757 for the National League champion New York Mets.
According to MLB, the pool comes from 50% of the gate receipts from the Wild Card games, 60% of the gate receipts from the first three games of the Division Series, 60& of the gate receipts from the first four games of the Championship Series and 60% of the gate receipts from the first four games of the World Series.
Don’t forget a similarity between the two games. Giants starter Jack Sanford (24 game winner) had a two-hit shutout through 5 innings, but was removed when he walked the leadoff hitter in the 6th. The Giants’ relievers then gave up 7 runs in the frame.
It would be interesting to see how the time is actually spent. I mean – pitching, hitting, and running only take a few seconds. The ball isn’t in play for all that long. What is actually going on, and how has that changed over time?
Nobody talked the way you do until the advent of TV, and the need to provide space for commercials, started bloating game-times, which has been aggravated by the sabermetric emphasis on walks, strikeouts and home runs, which rapidly accelerated a persistent long-term trend for more pitching changes. There's nothing meditative, old-fashioned or pastoral about this; without TV and computers we'd be looking at a very different sport.Replies: @Richard, @Buzz Mohawk
To follow up on my comment, read the following excerpt from 1911’s “America’s National Game” by Albert Spalding, who as pitcher, manager, team executive and founder of the Spalding sporting good company, has about as good a claim as anybody to being the most important figure in baseball’s early period. Among other things, he says: “Two hours is about as long as an American can wait for the close of a Base Ball game — or anything else, for that matter.”
NY HOF Manager John McGraw's nickname, "Mugsy" was in part due to the fights he either instigated or took part in on the field as a player in the 1890's BAL and later during his early yrs as a manager.
But yes, two hrs was considered a long time for an MLB game. One of the shortest games on record occurred in the early 1910's between NY vs PHI. The total nine inning game took 58 minutes. Can anyone imagine an entire nine inning game today taking only 58 minutes?Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Marty
In 2017, 259 minutes for 66 outs is 3.92 minutes per out. In 1975, 241 minutes for 69 outs is 3.49 minutes per out. 1975 length played at 89% of 2017, or about 12% faster. (Fisk's walk-off with nobody out accounts for 69, not 72 outs in '75.)
Is 1:29 per half inning the increase in TV commercials between '75 and '17? (My guess is commercials were two minutes in '75, they now appear to be three minutes in the playoffs.)
On the other hand, there were 90 plate appearances in 2017, versus 102 in 1975, so the '75 length played at 82% of '17 per plate appearance, or 2017 was about 20% longer.
So some game time increase is due to a slower pace of play. (Is 29 seconds per half inning noticeable?)Replies: @Forbes
Above should be 1.29 minutes per half inning, or 1:17. So actually 17 seconds of longer play per half inning…
But who’s counting.
The World Series winners' share of $10,000 was worth $82,000 in today's dollars, but also subject to about 75% tax, so you'd clear just over $20,000. That's not much compared to what a World Series win is worth to a player today.Replies: @Travis
Last year Cubs platers voted a full postseason share received $368,871 for winning the World Series, while a full share for the American League pennant winning Cleveland Indians totaled $261,804.
The previous year’s share amounts were $370,069 for the World Series champion Kansas City Royals and $300,757 for the National League champion New York Mets.
According to MLB, the pool comes from 50% of the gate receipts from the Wild Card games, 60% of the gate receipts from the first three games of the Division Series, 60& of the gate receipts from the first four games of the Championship Series and 60% of the gate receipts from the first four games of the World Series.
Nobody talked the way you do until the advent of TV, and the need to provide space for commercials, started bloating game-times, which has been aggravated by the sabermetric emphasis on walks, strikeouts and home runs, which rapidly accelerated a persistent long-term trend for more pitching changes. There's nothing meditative, old-fashioned or pastoral about this; without TV and computers we'd be looking at a very different sport.Replies: @Richard, @Buzz Mohawk
My father took me to Dodger and Angel games in the mid-1960s. At the gate, Dad would always pick up program; inside was a grid marked out for thinking spectators like him. He had time to fill in all the squares in his program, writing down the statistics as they happened with each at-bat, play and inning, explaining things to me the whole time.
That was thoughtful and reflective, and that was half a century ago.
I believe that was before the sabermetric emphasis you note. Television was fairly young then too, and I don’t think it intruded on the pace then as much as now.
You’ll note that my half-century-old experience with baseball began with me playing the game and attending professional games, not by watching it on Tee-Vee.
Surely the game has slowed down due to the causes you describe, but it was always something that moved at a special pace.
America has always been more “get up and go” than the old world, so maybe baseball seemed downright riotous to an Englishman even then. I don’t know, but I understand cricket matches can go on for days. I’m sure the English would say of themselves that they are more of a thinking people than we American cowboys. It’s all relative isn’t it? Including who your relatives are.
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2015/1/29/7921283/baseball-game-length-visual-analysis
The praise of languor and a "special pace" is a response to a more languid, slower-paced game. For earlier guys like Ty Cobb and Albert Spalding (read the excerpt from his book elsewhere on this thread), "Baseball is War!"
I wish they’d cut out the interleague games. When the leagues didn’t play each other there was always a certain level of mystery come WS time. You were never…quite…sure. No more. Interleague play was to get fannies into the seats after the strikes but the dew is long since off the rose. It’s probably too late to change anything now. Like the dee-aitch in the AL only (another farce by the way), interleague is here to stay.
There’s a story that the skipper of the Astros had a to-do with a drunk at a bar after the first game. Cops were summoned…no charges.
Sports and opera. Is Steve crazy or dishonest?Replies: @AM, @Anonymous, @anonymous
Sports and opera? I call it good taste. On that note, wonder if iSteve likes Wagner like I do (though preferably in small doses).
Christ, this is worse than the golf course posts. Wake me up when normal service resumes.
Yes, a lot of things must have seemed fast in 1911.
The World Land Speed Record was 125 MPH.
Air speed records reached a whopping 83 MPH.
And it took 4 and 1/2 days to get from New York to London for a cricket game.
Your clipping is fun to read, though. Thanks for sharing.
The games you were watching in the 1960s were already affected by TV, whether or not you not actually saw them through that medium. From the 1870s to the 1940s the average game-length was remarkably static: two hours, give or take 10 minutes. It started going up in the late ’40s when televised broadcasting began, and by 1965 the average game was already 30% longer than the historical norm.
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2015/1/29/7921283/baseball-game-length-visual-analysis
The praise of languor and a “special pace” is a response to a more languid, slower-paced game. For earlier guys like Ty Cobb and Albert Spalding (read the excerpt from his book elsewhere on this thread), “Baseball is War!”
MLB also introduced a new flat-seam ball which had the same effect in the MLB, Home runs increased by 47% after they changed the balls. Two studies confirms that home runs are up due to a change in the baseball. http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/06/29/a-second-study-confirms-that-home-runs-are-up-due-to-a-change-in-the-baseball/
Now that it is easier for an average hitter to go yard, we will continue to see more strike-outs as most players will be able to hit 20 home-runs each year. Players who hit 20 home runs with the older balls will be expected to hit 30 home runs with the newer balls. Will have less effect on players who were home run hitters, as home run hitters who previously hit 40 home runs will get less benefit, boosting their number s by just 20% while the weaker players will see their home runs increase by 50%.Replies: @anonymous
Thank you for this information.
I’m the guy who’s been saying “moderately deaden the ball.” Now I learn that the shortsighted, greedy industry jacked it up, greatly reducing the most interesting aspects of its product in an effort to draw in dullards. Welcome to the HR/K/W world of bashball, where the focus (and money) is on the stud pitchers and sluggers.
If you deeply appreciate anything in today’s America, then you should hope that it doesn’t catch on enough to be the subject of earnings calls and monthly financial reports.
This is not about relative perception. The games in Spalding’s day literally were quicker. Two hours in 1911, three hours in 2017. A 50% slower pace today.
Land speed record now: 763 MPH
Air speed record: 2,193 MPH
Time from New York City to London now: under 7 hours, Concord record 3 hours
Baseball games: 50% slower
So it is also about relative perception. I concede to your argument, except the part about baseball not being a thinking game that moves at a pace independent of time.Replies: @Richard
OT: Golf, gender; here’s one for Steve. Girl wins state golf tournament, but won’t get trophy.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/high-school-girls-golfer-beats-boys-but-rules-prohibit-her-from-receiving-trophy-state-berth/ar-AAu2pAo?OCID=ansmsnnews11
In addition to being a fast paced alternative in the late nineteenth century, MLB also was known for its fights, or “rowdyism” (somewhat akin to NFL fights) that would often break out not only in the grandstands, but chiefly on the field between the players. It wasn’t until the 1910’s when women started coming to the games in significant numbers that MLB began to consciously clean up its rebel rowdy image. Cricket obviously didn’t/doesn’t have fights breaking out on field between players. That would be so unseemly and a waste of energy. Definitely not cricket.
NY HOF Manager John McGraw’s nickname, “Mugsy” was in part due to the fights he either instigated or took part in on the field as a player in the 1890’s BAL and later during his early yrs as a manager.
But yes, two hrs was considered a long time for an MLB game. One of the shortest games on record occurred in the early 1910’s between NY vs PHI. The total nine inning game took 58 minutes. Can anyone imagine an entire nine inning game today taking only 58 minutes?
NY HOF Manager John McGraw's nickname, "Mugsy" was in part due to the fights he either instigated or took part in on the field as a player in the 1890's BAL and later during his early yrs as a manager.
But yes, two hrs was considered a long time for an MLB game. One of the shortest games on record occurred in the early 1910's between NY vs PHI. The total nine inning game took 58 minutes. Can anyone imagine an entire nine inning game today taking only 58 minutes?Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Marty
The American League was founded in 1901 to offer a more respectable alternative to the Irish-dominated thuggishness of the 1890s National League. It was highly successful.
An interesting article from earlier this year compared a game from 1984 and a game from 2014. The author deliberately selected a pair of games that had not only identical scores but also near-identical pitch counts, number of baserunners, etc. Yet the modern game was over half an hour longer. The author tried to figure out why.
https://www.sbnation.com/a/mlb-2017-season-preview/game-length
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/questions-and-answers-for-the-additional-medicare-taxReplies: @E. Rekshun
($250,000 X 1.45%) +($35,000,000 – 250,000) X 2.35%
= $3635 + $816,625 = $820,250
Where am I wrong.
Red Sox and Yankees will both have new managers next season. Not winning the World Series every three years (or so) just won’t cut it.
The full story is more complicated. The American Association was founded in the 1880s as the rowdy alternative to the staid National League. They played games on Sundays and sold beer in the stands. The Association collapsed after a decade, but a few of their teams and much of their spirit migrated into the National League.
And although Ban Johnson was very much a Midwestern Protestant, he had Irish allies including Connie Mack and Charles Comiskey. And also the Irish fans of Boston – Red Sox Nation was born almost immediately as the Red Sox (not called that yet) proved to be one of the best teams in the new league and the fans ficklely abandoned the lousy Braves (also not called that yet).
(And even John McGraw himself was in the AL for a while, although he and Johnson quickly fell out. McGraw went back to the National League, but in an twist ended up with Christy Mathewson, the ultimate classy player of the era.)
NY HOF Manager John McGraw's nickname, "Mugsy" was in part due to the fights he either instigated or took part in on the field as a player in the 1890's BAL and later during his early yrs as a manager.
But yes, two hrs was considered a long time for an MLB game. One of the shortest games on record occurred in the early 1910's between NY vs PHI. The total nine inning game took 58 minutes. Can anyone imagine an entire nine inning game today taking only 58 minutes?Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Marty
In 1958, Stockton Ports manager Don “Ducky” Pries walked out on the field during a game to confront his shortstop about an error. Unfortunately he raised his hands – and got knocked out. He’s in the Baltimore Orioles HOF as a scout.
No.
You have made an even more powerful point. Games are not only literally 50% longer now, but they also must seem even slower to modern people:
Land speed record now: 763 MPH
Air speed record: 2,193 MPH
Time from New York City to London now: under 7 hours, Concord record 3 hours
Baseball games: 50% slower
So it is also about relative perception. I concede to your argument, except the part about baseball not being a thinking game that moves at a pace independent of time.
I didn't say that baseball is no thinking game, unless the idea is that people's minds are supposed to wander in "meditation" while players increasingly spend more time standing around doing nothing, as James Kabala's excellent link documented. As Albert Spalding said, "Base Ball is War" and war is nothing without strategy.Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
It looked like the ball was going over his head. Of course, Mays would have scored the winning run. Not even comparable to anything which happened Wednesday night between Houston and LA.
The 1951 Giants–Dodgers game is the setting for the very memorable opening chapter of Don Delillo’s Underworld. I liked it better than any actual baseball game I’ve ever seen.
I remember the 1962 Series finale quite well as it was quite an exciting experience for an 11 year old boy. The film clip doesn't do justice to the drama however and doesn't really give a good picture of Richardson's catch. As I recall, the ball was almost over his head but he managed to get his glove up in time. Being a Yankees fan and having just been given a case of the "Willies", I was pumped and went outside and immediately rode my bicycle as hard as I could around the neighborhood to blow off the tension! (Back when it was reasonably safe to actually ride a bicycle around the neighborhood).Replies: @Abe, @FPD72
Did you have baseball cards pinned to catch the spokes, or was 11 too old?
I had the pleasure of watching a game at Wrigley c. 1972 in which Jenkins dueled Carlton. the run time was about 1:45. If any of the hitters had called time out after Fergie or Lefty got on the rubber, or diddled with their batting gloves when either was ready to pitch, or taken a minute and a half to round the bases after a homer, the next pitch to that hitter would have been aimed at the ear flap. and there weren’t any ear flaps back then. Also, the starting pitchers in those days planned to go 9 innings for their money, every 4 days, instead of the 6 innings every 5 days that’s now the expectation.
The huge money has made viewing of MLB, NFL, CFB excruciating because of all of the TV ads necessary to support it. Last year I watched a postseason game on my Roku instead of cable, and they run the same 8-10 commercials every break, usually in the same order. Really tough to sit through an entire game.
The huge money has made viewing of MLB, NFL, CFB excruciating because of all of the TV ads necessary to support it. Last year I watched a postseason game on my Roku instead of cable, and they run the same 8-10 commercials every break, usually in the same order. Really tough to sit through an entire game.Replies: @Steve Sailer
I don’t understand the extreme repetition of TV commercials played during long-running sports events like the World Series and Olympics. It would seem pretty cheap to film minor variations on ads, say with different punchlines, and put them into the mix to keep viewers mildly interested.
= $3635 + $816,625 = $820,250
Where am I wrong.Replies: @EriK
read the link my friend. You’re using the wrong rate. It’s 0.9% for additional medicare.
Not at that moment, but if you are of that period of time, we certainly did that from time to time. Little kids like us knew more about these players than most of the adults because we bought the baseball cards and studied the statistics! Of course, we sure as hell wouldn’t waste a Mantle, Mays, or McCovey card on the bicycle tire spokes!
All should look up the box score for longest N.Y. Yankee game in history, I still check it occasionally, 22 innings in June 1962 at Detroit, some players batted ten times, the game went exactly 7 hours, Yogi Berra caught all 22 innings at age 37, each team used 7 pitchers, nobody scored for 17 innings or so until the 22nd (I’m doing this from memory) and Jack Reed’s 2 run HR in the top of the 22nd finally ended it after the Yankees shut the Tigers down in the bottom of the 22nd. I believe Rocky Colavito went 7 for 10 and his team still lost. I was 22 at the time, on active duty in the Air Force… Steve Sailer is a great writing talent, so good you’ll not find him in newspapers!
Land speed record now: 763 MPH
Air speed record: 2,193 MPH
Time from New York City to London now: under 7 hours, Concord record 3 hours
Baseball games: 50% slower
So it is also about relative perception. I concede to your argument, except the part about baseball not being a thinking game that moves at a pace independent of time.Replies: @Richard
I really don’t believe that. Spalding said that 1911 spectators were exhausted by any game lasting longer than two hours. That’s evidence against the speculation that modern fans have grown more impatient because of technological advances.
I didn’t say that baseball is no thinking game, unless the idea is that people’s minds are supposed to wander in “meditation” while players increasingly spend more time standing around doing nothing, as James Kabala’s excellent link documented. As Albert Spalding said, “Base Ball is War” and war is nothing without strategy.
Thanks so much for this, James. The article is a bit precious at points in its takes on the benighted 1980s, but the value of the analysis is high.
For anyone else interested, here are a few highlights from the article’s conclusions about why games now take so much longer compared to just 30 years ago:
At last I figure out the origin of Charlie Brown’s lament, “Why couldn’t McCovey have hit the ball three feet higher?”
I’ve been wondering about that since the seventies.
I didn't say that baseball is no thinking game, unless the idea is that people's minds are supposed to wander in "meditation" while players increasingly spend more time standing around doing nothing, as James Kabala's excellent link documented. As Albert Spalding said, "Base Ball is War" and war is nothing without strategy.Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
Kabala’s link is excellent, and it’s conclusions seem right. Most of the extra time is just emptiness between pitches, players taking too much time.
Maybe pitch clocks aren’t such a bad idea.
The charm of baseball isn’t the lollygagging, it’s the fact that it’s measured by innings, not minutes, as tennis is by games and sets. It’s noteworthy that in tennis now too some players have recently gotten away with long breaks. Maybe it’s yet another sign of our whole culture becoming less disciplined and more self-absorbed that sports players can drift off and waste everybody’s time with no consequences.
Your war analogy quote is confusing and limited, though. One can assume that many a soldier would say most time in war is spent doing nothing but waiting around, moving equipment, eating, sleeping, waiting — and then sudden terror and adrenaline. Yes, kind of like baseball, but not steady action or quick resolution at all.
The only way the clip is watchable is via time-lapse photography, so fortunately that's what you get.
Anyway, enjoy:
https://streamable.com/8wdxi
Yes. I posted the following link last week, but it’s extremely pertinent here, so I think it bears repeating. It’s a clip from one of the NLCS games between the Dodgers and the Cubs. John Lackey is pitching (maybe — hopefully? — for the last time ever) for the Cubs, and it takes him five solid minutes to deliver six pitches.
The only way the clip is watchable is via time-lapse photography, so fortunately that’s what you get.
Anyway, enjoy:
https://streamable.com/8wdxi
It was a rebuttal to your straw man that I was insisting that baseball wasn’t a “thinking game.” I’m sure Spalding realized that a game ebbs and flows, that in some innings no one gets on base while in others the hits keep on coming.
This was Reed’s only major-league HR in his career.
It’s one of the principal reasons that I gave up on baseball after the strike.
One of my grandfathers worked for Spalding, and I’ve always had a soft spot for Spalding sporting goods. But, I must say, he knows very little of cricket. To continue the war metaphor, a baseball game is a skirmish, a domestic first-class cricket match is a battle, and an international cricket match is a campaign. And blood is often shed. Why else all the protective gear?
Didn’t everyone?