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From The Atlantic:
It’s not a crisis, it’s an opportunity. The biggest group of underexploited high school students with talent are flyover state white males.
When it comes to college enrollment, students in Middle America—many of them white—face an uphill battle against economic and cultural deterrents.
JON MARCUS AND MATT KRUPNICK 7:00 AM ET EDUCATION
… Variations of this mindset, among many other reasons, have given rise to a reality that’s gotten lost in the impassioned debate over who gets to go to college, which often focuses on low-income people of color: The high-school graduates who head off to campus in the lowest proportions in America are the ones from rural places. …
It’s not that rural students aren’t academically prepared. They score better on the National Assessment of Educational Progress than urban students and graduate from high school at a higher percentage than the national average, the U.S. Department of Education reports. At the regional high school Gordon attended in Lenox, Iowa, the graduation rate is typically at or near an impressive 100 percent.
Yet even the highest-income white students from rural areas are less likely to go to college right from high school than their well-off white city and suburban counterparts, according to the National Student Clearinghouse, which tracks this data: 61 percent, compared to 72 percent from urban schools and 74 percent from suburban ones.
Overall, 59 percent of rural high-school grads—white and nonwhite, at every income level—go to college the subsequent fall, a lower proportion than the 62 percent of urban and 67 percent of suburban graduates who do, the clearinghouse says. Forty-two percent of people ages 18 to 24 are enrolled in all of higher education, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, but only 29 percent come from rural areas, compared to nearly 48 percent from cities.
Caroline Hoxby of Stanford discovered a half decade ago that the largest group of high school students with 90th percentile test scores who are unambitious about college tend to be white guys in nowheresville.
Whether this Disparate Impact is due to active discrimination against the victims or merely due to active discrimination in favor of others is, in some ways, an academic question. On the other hand, it’s also not the kind of question of much interest to academics, other than a few independent minded ones like Hoxby.
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Caroline Hoxby of Stanford discovered a half decade ago that the largest group of high school students with 90th percentile test scores who are unambitious about college tend to be white guys in nowheresville.
Alt Right recruitment pool!
Maybe it’s not so much they lack ambition as they realize college has become something of a scam for people who aren’t getting degrees that prep you for a specific field, like engineering or medicine. There are a whole lot of millennial graduates out there working the same job they could have worked straight out of high school.
https://twitter.com/StevenJones_MCR/status/555156227664396289
College graduates also have a much lower rate of unemployment.
https://twitter.com/ttownorso/status/828979471181021184
College graduates have a much higher rate of labor force participation.
https://imgur.com/a/PIvMy
College grads are also much more likely to have health and dental insurance, 401K plans, and other types of benefits.
Going to college is one of the best decisions that a person can make. Your probability of being employed and highly compensated is much higher.
I find it interesting that so many conservatives and HBDers always tell young people to skip college.
This is remarkably bad advice. It's not like the above graphs are secret knowledge. Since at least the 90s, it's been well known that college grads had much better economic outcomes than non-grads.
I also find it interesting that so many HBDers obsess over IQ. A college degree is much more associated with income than IQ. See the below graph from a longitudinal study that was mentioned in the Wall Street Journal.
https://imgur.com/a/lnpLE
Conclusion:
-A college degree strongly raises income and employment prospects.
-Lack a college degree lowers income and increases probability of unemployment.
-A college degree correlates much more strongly with income than IQ.
-Red State flyover country kids should get college degrees if they want to maximize their economic/career prospects.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Desiderius, @John Pepple, @Daniel Chieh, @Issac
As I would be paying my own way through college I then researched job opportunities for someone with a B.A. in history. What I found suggested that being a taxi driver was likely to be the most remunerative occupation with a credential in that field, even with a Phd.
After four years of life and work experience I went to the University of Illinois and had a rewarding carrier as a civil engineer. And I was able to read as much about history as I wanted. And I still do.
In retrospect, not going to college directly from high school was the wisest thing I have ever done.
You may have seen articles in Canadian papers (Montreal, Vancouver) about their m/f educational attainment (e.g., STEM) trends. One theme is why people ignore the decline in male academic achievement. What appears as a zero sum game to advocates (e.g., the male-looking female engineering prof at UBC with her 50% female student bogey) becomes a negative sum game for societies. Affirmative actions become negative actions, so impacts are mapped onto Schrödinger’s kids that learn or don’t learn depending on who is noticing and when.
Could it be massive roadblocks thrown up in their way by our new (((meritocratic))) elite, who’d rather help those lowly and forlorn less likely to be future competitors? …While figuring out ways to make Asian quotas less-obvious caltrops?
Having lived in nowhereville for two decades not so long ago my impression is that these kids have family businesses to enter and families that are entirely unimpressed with the communist indoctrination on every campus but Hillsdale. Some go to ag schools or enter a family trade (hvac, elec, etc) while others may go to nursing or veterinary schools. Many join the military.
In other words, this is a feature and not a bug.
Those kids will be fine long-term. Anybody in the top ten percent should be. It's their underutilization that harms society. Especially when some affirmative action dunce takes their place in law, politics, or God forbid something like engineering.
God forbid the rural kids go to college. Who would volunteer for the military that could actually shoot straight, understand and operate their equipment and lead soldiers into battle?
The coddled suburban kids and the urban underclass sure are not going to make the army function.
Why should any White join the Church of worshipping black athletes?
How many of them can afford it?
Oh, that's cute.
Dude. The last thing the academic-industrial complex wants is to bring in people who can afford college. They want people who can't afford it, and will take out loans for useless degrees and end up in hock for the rest of their lives.
Generic white dudes from Flyover Land, whatever their intelligence, have gotten hip to the fact that college will serve them no purpose. They're the last potential suckers. If they don't fall for the con, the whole racket dies.
Sure but this is why we should get rid of affirmative action right Steve? IIRC according to Espenshade without AA the percentage of Asians would rise at elite undergrads, the percentage of whites would remain roughly the same but the composition would be different. We’d have more smart rural whites and less legacy whites. Seems like win win for both whites and Asians in this country.
In a way, the damage has been done. Affirmative Action started as a call for more Blacks in everything, but since no one really wanted that, it morphed into a call for more people of all kinds; for a universalism of the world's people in our country; "diversity is our strength"; open borders. Thus, we could dilute the damage and satisfy the AA overlord without hiring anyone too dysfunctional. The Yan Shens of the world have benefited plenty from this arrangement.
When you say Asians do you mean American citizens?
Why should a young white guy, urban or rural, immerse himself in a hostile environment and take on debt for a lifetime to achieve a degree which doesn’t mean anything in terms of increased earning power and may not guarantee a job at all? Much better to try out different things in the real world, learn some skills and then, if some college courses are necessary, take as much as possible on line or at cheap community colleges. The less exposure to most campus life, whether it’s frat partying or political indoctrination, the better.
Roger that. Lived it.
Well, in the 1980s in my nowhere berg in nowhere Upper Midwest, it was simply because no one thought much about going to big-time college. Going to University of Iowa, University of Minnesota or University of Nebraska seemed just fine for kids scoring in the mid 20s or 30s on the ACT. (Btw, I think that even the ACT has had a bit grade inflation since then but not sure.)
A friend of mine scored, I think, maybe a 31 or 32 on the ACT. He just went to the local university and became a school teacher. Another friend who scored ~30 went to Nebraska and became a very succesful CPA.
They’re both plenty happy living in MN and SD.
Another guy I knew demolished the ACT and went on to Berkeley and later to . . . Rice U. (There’s always a Steve connection.) He works in Silicon Valley, grinds his ass off and is divorced. (Actually, I think that he might have bailed on the whole thing. Regardless, from his early 20s to, at least, 40, he was busting his balls, though making a ton of money. In the end, it wasnt’ worth it for him.)
Point is that we’re not necessarily “wasting” that talent, at least assuming that they’re pointed in the direction of a reasonable university.
I heard this 15 years ago from a buddy of mine that was teaching at a Parochial HS in NE Nebraska. Even athletes that would have been successful in sports at the smaller schools in the region.
College just isn’t as big of a deal to many people in rural areas.
As someone who grew up in a rural area, it didn’t register for me that the choice of college was so all important. I just saw it as a place to get some education that would assist in getting a job. Maybe things have changed since my day, but I don’t think it’s changed that much.
There is certainly class awareness in the countryside, but nowhere near what you see in urban/suburban areas. You often associate with people you are familiar with and people have a pretty good idea of what you’re all about. They generally won’t need to see a degree from a specific school to assess your worth.
If you graduate from HS, avoid drugs, don't get pregnant (or father a child), until you are married. And if that is your path, then the USA ought to provide you with a solid middle-class lifestyle.
Do not enough rural white boys go to college or is that way too many of every other kind of kid goes to college? Even 59 percent attending college sounds like far more than probably ought to be going. Maybe the whole “everyone has to go to college” malarkey just hasn’t filtered down to rural high schools? Better for them, I imagine.
Off topic:
Do you have any insight to this question:
https://slatestarscratchpad.tumblr.com/post/165750185801/what-does-higher-intelligence-in-the-giq-sense#notes ?
Thanks
If democrats think college will turn red rurals into blue ones, perhaps some will push to get them there.
Many rural and semi-rural White males are looking at college and shunning it. There choosing to take vocational paths, obtaining decent paying skills with non of the debt. Additionally many are doing well on the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) and are able to join the military and go to the program they want, like becoming an aircraft mechanic. Personally, I wouldn’t want to go the military route, especially in today’s politically correct environment, but a man with plan can get the skill and then get out.
It’s largely *structural discrimination*. That’s the phrase sjws use to indicate when the system is set up against . The ivies don’t visit the flyover state high schools telling them how much fin aid they can have.The flyover states don’t have industries of people curating your extra curriculars, teaching you how to game the FAFSA for the most aid, rewriting your essays, tweaking your SAT prep, etc.
This is from The Anti White Atlantic????!?
Advertising revenues must be down as no one subscribes to The Atlantic any more. Or maybe the colleges are looking 40 years down the line and realize that Gender Race Intersection Studies majors won’t have any money to donate to their alma mater from their substitute teachers salaries
It’s already happening in California. Black and Hispanic government government workers are comfortable middle class but really can’t donate much to their colleges. And the ever increasing Asian and Indian grads won’t give even for the tax deductions. Some of the UC and private colleges are 50 percent Asian already and they won’t get a dime in alumnae gifts.
It’s mostly Whites who donate to colleges and only White men who make enough to donate substantial amounts. I knew the Stanford engineering students who created Silicon Valley. Back in the olden days of merit admissions, most of them were Midwesterners, not from California or the east coast.
But with America’s biggest bloc of talent * forbidden by law and the hatred and bigotry of the colleges from attending colleges, America has thrown away its best and brightest +
Ever heard of the saying “White flight is White revenge?” It means that although blacks and their Jew enablers drove Whites from our greatest cities by terrorism, murder, rape and violence, the blacks had to live in the hell holes they created after they drove the Whites away.
The colleges thought they could survive without White male hetero goyim. But I doubt they can.
* White male goyim
+ White male goyim
The coddled suburban kids and the urban underclass sure are not going to make the army function.Replies: @Alden
Why should any White join the army of the enemy of Whites, the American government.
Why should any White join the Church of worshipping black athletes?
There is effectively discrimination at the elite college level. (The “diversity” these white rural folks offer is not of interest to TPTB.)
However, i don’t think discrimination really has much to do with the overall numbers here. Only maybe to the extent that some folks look out at the package of hostile nonsense–of which discrimination is a piece–and say “no thanks”.
But mostly it think this is just “interest” and “access”. More “college material” rural kids don’t have college educated parents, and don’t see it as a “must do”. And–probably the most important item–it’s further to get to the local “community college” fallback, a common option for the marginals–and folks who can’t afford a four year coming of age party–which are ubiquitous in urban areas. If you have to pile into the car and drive 50 miles each way to community college, you may just decide “forget it”.
~~~
The real ridiculous thing here is 59%, 62%, 67% (rural, urban, suburban) college attendance right out of high school. And that’s everyone not just the (even higher) white numbers. C’mon, we don’t have anywhere near those numbers who are college material.
What the heck are all these people needing “college” for? What is that they are going to learn, that couldn’t have been learned in the 12 years ed-biz had them?
The education establishment needs to get its head out of its ass, stop the equalist pretensions and make high school useful in getting average and below students prepared and ready for that work that most people actually do–which certainly should not take a college degree.
I agree, but apparently have to do it in a comment. Maybe because I already agreed with another comment above? Whatever, Unz does a good job.
And the Winter Games of the Next Olympiad have been awarded to...Hell.
Now, college is a jobs program for professors and administrators, necessitating another four years of day care, paid for with loans taken out by the student inmates, for the privilege of grade inflation and an academic credential.
It's not as if the result are the many more medical school graduates we need, or the many more lawyers we don't need...
Millions of bartenders, waiters, and retail workers with (useless) college degrees should be an embarrassment, as should the outstanding student loans with no degree that regularly prevails. Yet, the college-for-all scam persists.
Must keep the funds flowing to important voting constituencies...
In Mr. Sailer’s most recent essay at Taki’s Mag, he describes the popular winning NCAA strategy of recruiting talent more deplorable than competing teams can stomach.
Perhaps a winning strategy for the academic side of things too?
Where are these young men going/doing in society? 25 yrs ago I would guess they joined the military…Camp David used to be guarded by them. Now I’m guessing they are the backbone of the alt right.
And I am guessing that you are a : deutscher Besserwisser, und wir haben genug unter deutscher Besserwisserei im letzten Jahrhundert gelitten.
Die Welt soll nicht mehr am deutschen Wesen genesen, genug ist genug.
Authenticjazzman "Mensa" qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army Vet, and pro jazz musician.
Fixed that for ya! 😉
However, i don't think discrimination really has much to do with the overall numbers here. Only maybe to the extent that some folks look out at the package of hostile nonsense--of which discrimination is a piece--and say "no thanks".
But mostly it think this is just "interest" and "access". More "college material" rural kids don't have college educated parents, and don't see it as a "must do". And--probably the most important item--it's further to get to the local "community college" fallback, a common option for the marginals--and folks who can't afford a four year coming of age party--which are ubiquitous in urban areas. If you have to pile into the car and drive 50 miles each way to community college, you may just decide "forget it".
~~~
The real ridiculous thing here is 59%, 62%, 67% (rural, urban, suburban) college attendance right out of high school. And that's everyone not just the (even higher) white numbers. C'mon, we don't have anywhere near those numbers who are college material.
What the heck are all these people needing "college" for? What is that they are going to learn, that couldn't have been learned in the 12 years ed-biz had them?
The education establishment needs to get its head out of its ass, stop the equalist pretensions and make high school useful in getting average and below students prepared and ready for that work that most people actually do--which certainly should not take a college degree.Replies: @Luke Lea, @newrouter, @S. Anonyia, @njguy73, @oddsbodkins, @Almost Missouri, @Forbes
“The education establishment needs to get its head out of its ass, stop the equalist pretensions and make high school useful in getting average and below students prepared and ready for that work that most people actually do–which certainly should not take a college degree.”
I agree, but apparently have to do it in a comment. Maybe because I already agreed with another comment above? Whatever, Unz does a good job.
The underlying presumption in this article is that “going to college” is the best way of spending 4 years of your life. An interesting assumption in these days of massive underemployment of graduates.
A matter of degree: Many college grads never work in their major
See my comments about Espenshade above. Affirmative action is basically a scam that disproportionately benefits the Jared Kushners, Laquishas, and Tyrones of this country, at the expense of smarter and worthier candidates.
As we learned from Espenshade, the burden of creating spots for less deserving black and Hispanic students has largely been placed upon the shoulder of Asian Americans, a comical absurdity if you ask me. The discrimination against smart rural white applicants is basically an instance of white-on-white crime, in which wealthy legacy admits like Jared Kushner fuck over other less privileged but perhaps smarter whites from humbler backgrounds.
http://legalruralism.blogspot.com/2010/07/disadvantage-for-rural-whites-in.html
Asians seem to want a structure where only SAT scores count. That already exists, in Asia.
This is just propaganda to get more paying customers for colleges.
Let the college pay you. Here is an incomplete list of colleges that offer full ride or full tuition scholarships to National Merit Finalists and Semi-Finalists.
http://nmfscholarships.yolasite.com/
flyover state white males
Yes — they could apply to eg the Univ of MO — I hear there’s room — and they’d surely be happy there — not to mention appreciated and respected.
Importing a new elite of Asians was stupid. Generally speaking, I have nothing against Asians, but we’ve reached a point where there are too many of them, and they are taking too many plum opportunities that should be going to Gentile/Christian whites. What kind of country fails to preserve its best opportunities for its native citizens?
However, i don't think discrimination really has much to do with the overall numbers here. Only maybe to the extent that some folks look out at the package of hostile nonsense--of which discrimination is a piece--and say "no thanks".
But mostly it think this is just "interest" and "access". More "college material" rural kids don't have college educated parents, and don't see it as a "must do". And--probably the most important item--it's further to get to the local "community college" fallback, a common option for the marginals--and folks who can't afford a four year coming of age party--which are ubiquitous in urban areas. If you have to pile into the car and drive 50 miles each way to community college, you may just decide "forget it".
~~~
The real ridiculous thing here is 59%, 62%, 67% (rural, urban, suburban) college attendance right out of high school. And that's everyone not just the (even higher) white numbers. C'mon, we don't have anywhere near those numbers who are college material.
What the heck are all these people needing "college" for? What is that they are going to learn, that couldn't have been learned in the 12 years ed-biz had them?
The education establishment needs to get its head out of its ass, stop the equalist pretensions and make high school useful in getting average and below students prepared and ready for that work that most people actually do--which certainly should not take a college degree.Replies: @Luke Lea, @newrouter, @S. Anonyia, @njguy73, @oddsbodkins, @Almost Missouri, @Forbes
Young engineers to be: learn a trade 1st: mech engineers: machining, hvac, auto mechanics, etc. Other engineers the same.
Afford it?
Oh, that’s cute.
Dude. The last thing the academic-industrial complex wants is to bring in people who can afford college. They want people who can’t afford it, and will take out loans for useless degrees and end up in hock for the rest of their lives.
Generic white dudes from Flyover Land, whatever their intelligence, have gotten hip to the fact that college will serve them no purpose. They’re the last potential suckers. If they don’t fall for the con, the whole racket dies.
However, i don't think discrimination really has much to do with the overall numbers here. Only maybe to the extent that some folks look out at the package of hostile nonsense--of which discrimination is a piece--and say "no thanks".
But mostly it think this is just "interest" and "access". More "college material" rural kids don't have college educated parents, and don't see it as a "must do". And--probably the most important item--it's further to get to the local "community college" fallback, a common option for the marginals--and folks who can't afford a four year coming of age party--which are ubiquitous in urban areas. If you have to pile into the car and drive 50 miles each way to community college, you may just decide "forget it".
~~~
The real ridiculous thing here is 59%, 62%, 67% (rural, urban, suburban) college attendance right out of high school. And that's everyone not just the (even higher) white numbers. C'mon, we don't have anywhere near those numbers who are college material.
What the heck are all these people needing "college" for? What is that they are going to learn, that couldn't have been learned in the 12 years ed-biz had them?
The education establishment needs to get its head out of its ass, stop the equalist pretensions and make high school useful in getting average and below students prepared and ready for that work that most people actually do--which certainly should not take a college degree.Replies: @Luke Lea, @newrouter, @S. Anonyia, @njguy73, @oddsbodkins, @Almost Missouri, @Forbes
Agreed. Many of those 67, 62 and 59 % will not finish or will take 7 + years just to get a bachelor’s. Maybe 20-25 % of the population (at most) belongs in college. Now even parents of kids with learning disabilities expect them to go to college.
About the only majors worth pursuing are STEM studies.
However, i don't think discrimination really has much to do with the overall numbers here. Only maybe to the extent that some folks look out at the package of hostile nonsense--of which discrimination is a piece--and say "no thanks".
But mostly it think this is just "interest" and "access". More "college material" rural kids don't have college educated parents, and don't see it as a "must do". And--probably the most important item--it's further to get to the local "community college" fallback, a common option for the marginals--and folks who can't afford a four year coming of age party--which are ubiquitous in urban areas. If you have to pile into the car and drive 50 miles each way to community college, you may just decide "forget it".
~~~
The real ridiculous thing here is 59%, 62%, 67% (rural, urban, suburban) college attendance right out of high school. And that's everyone not just the (even higher) white numbers. C'mon, we don't have anywhere near those numbers who are college material.
What the heck are all these people needing "college" for? What is that they are going to learn, that couldn't have been learned in the 12 years ed-biz had them?
The education establishment needs to get its head out of its ass, stop the equalist pretensions and make high school useful in getting average and below students prepared and ready for that work that most people actually do--which certainly should not take a college degree.Replies: @Luke Lea, @newrouter, @S. Anonyia, @njguy73, @oddsbodkins, @Almost Missouri, @Forbes
In other words, prepare people to be productive members of society who aren’t in debt, who can make good decisions on their own, and who won’t need to depend on government.
And the Winter Games of the Next Olympiad have been awarded to…Hell.
In other words, this is a feature and not a bug.Replies: @Polynikes
Having lived there too, my impression is they mostly don’t. At best those family businesses are being swallowed up by globalization.
Those kids will be fine long-term. Anybody in the top ten percent should be. It’s their underutilization that harms society. Especially when some affirmative action dunce takes their place in law, politics, or God forbid something like engineering.
Triumph104 FTW
A matter of degree: Many college grads never work in their majorReplies: @Steve Sailer
If you score at the 90th percentile or higher of the SAT/ACT, like in Hoxby’s study, you ought to get a college degree unless you are Leonardo DiCaprio or Jordan Spieth.
I'd be with you if the Liberal Arts were still widely taught. That is no longer the case.
Everything the last few years is a “Crisis” or an “Atrocity” or “Worse than the H…”
Why the constant hyperbole? Has this been adopted from Jewish neuroticism in their writing?
Quite correct.
About the only majors worth pursuing are STEM studies.
The assumption in this article and in our society is that ever higher college attendance rates are always a good thing, all the way up to 100% eventually.
Anyhow, people out in the country have always been less educated, that is hardly an American thing. Has the gap ever been otherwise in the USA? Hardly an emergent crisis like, say, the opioid deal.
Slow news day for iSteve throwing this one out there.
Do you have any insight to this question:
https://slatestarscratchpad.tumblr.com/post/165750185801/what-does-higher-intelligence-in-the-giq-sense#notes ?
ThanksReplies: @Steve Sailer
Think faster or have a better working memory or both is usually a part of it.
Having a qualitatively different cognitive take is at least part of it - think of the difference between you and your dog's understanding/narrative looking at, say, an internal combustion engine.
Now, compared to some 160+ IQ guy, you are like the dog.
Honestly, I think scoring like that, one owes itself not to do what all the other common drudges do. I’d reverse it to say if you score at the 90th or lower, you should get a college degree.
Actually, for teens these days, I’m beginning to believe a college degree is mostly a waste of time for the future most of them face.
Anyhow, college in general has become a racket, like everything eventually does.
A daughter of one of my rural relatives went to a fancy college and ended up in Durban fighting racism. Every smart rural white kid who doesn’t go to college is a smart rural white kid who isn’t going to be indoctrinated. Maybe not such a bad thing?
A very small part of it, albeit under the hood it might be the raw octane.
Having a qualitatively different cognitive take is at least part of it – think of the difference between you and your dog’s understanding/narrative looking at, say, an internal combustion engine.
Now, compared to some 160+ IQ guy, you are like the dog.
Yan Shen – Shut the fuck up
Grudging respect to The Atlantic for printing this. It’s normally as predictable as the sun rising in the east when it comes to its editorial position anything involving race, but this is definitely outside its normal comfort zone.
90th percentile among SAT test takers typically translated to about a 1300 combined for math+reading on a 1600 scale. If you’re at that level, it probably makes sense to go to college, but I think I kind of agree with Alfred’s sentiments somewhat.
Unless you’re majoring in a hard STEM field, it’s not always clear that you learn all that much that’s useful for your career later on. And even when you do major in a hard STEM field, if you’re not going on to graduate school, a lot of the times you end up not using much that you learned when you graduate and work in industry. Exceptions do exist, but.
Now of course a lot of people will say that college is also about the life experience and serves as a transition between childhood and adulthood, but I wonder if it doesn’t make sense to reform undergrad education so that it’s more like graduate education. When you get a practical masters degree, you usually spend 2 years taking only relevant classes. By comparison, you spend 4 years in undergrad and often have to take humanities or social science requirements to obtain a degree even if you major in STEM. Some people think this is part of the enriching experience that is college, but I’m not necessarily as certain.
There a lot of people with good SAT scores who went to top 20 schools who majored in something like economics and ended up later working in investment banking, management consulting, or tech, or the likes who from a skills perspective most likely could’ve done that work straight out of high school. (Ignoring the fact that banks and consulting companies obviously care about pedigree and often only recruit undergrads from target schools. And taking into account the fact that tech is more than just engineering, i.e. analytics, data science, product, business, etc. I suspect that engineers would benefit from a rigorous comp sci undergrad program.) In tech, there are a lot of online courses or in person boot camp programs like General Assembly or the likes that cost significantly less than a 4 year degree and only take a few months that many people go through to gain the specific skills relevant for whatever roles they’re interested in.
It’s a group that’s going to be of considerable interest to the bean counters if they were would-be paying customers. Missou could use a few of them this very day..
A few years ago it was in the news that midwestern kids with 4H, Future Farmers of America or ROTC experience actually had those affiliations counted against them when applying at Ivy league schools. My kids do well in school, not well enough for Harvard, but it doesn’t matter. I would do anything in my power to talk them out of Harvard if they qualified. It’s a leftist factory, and there’s no reason to ruin a perfectly good young person by sending them to Harvard.
“There are a whole lot of millennial graduates out there working the same job they could have worked straight out of high school.”
It may have always been thus. I know a lot of people, including your’s truly, who wound up doing jobs that any reasonably intelligent high school grad could do just as well, if not better. I mean, what do you do with a “Gentleman’s ‘C’ ” cumulative average and a liberal arts degree from some mickey mouse college or university located at the bottom third of the Forbes 400.
You underestimate the extent to which those students are discriminating against schools like Stanford, and for better reason every year.
The rural whites college situation is one of the key things I learned from Unz.
It’s like this:
Jews and Asians -> strictly urban -> obsessed with degrees and academics -> massively overrepresented at universities.
Blacks and Latinos -> largely urban -> appear to actively dislike academics, but are aggressively being sought to fill AA quotas -> overrepresented relative to talent.
Talented foreigners -> actively recruited by American universities -> seek prestigious American degrees plus the American lifestyle -> well represented.
Urban whites -> have the numbers and carry the tradition of having invented the modern world -> get what remains of the spots -> reasonably well represented.
Rural whites -> shafted.
The rest, I don't even expect they'd get properly educated, let alone be better off financially or in the social hierarchy long-term. Which is how college is sold in this country, explicitly or not.
*The whole point of the educational system should be to find them: the diamonds in the rough that can be polished and used to further American civilization. It should not be to make everyone good citizens, provide some basic level of social engineering so everyone behaves themselves, make everyone fit to be cogs in the economy, provide an excuse for the Cathedral to perpetuate itself, and any number of other justifications.
Care to elaborate on that?
I’d be with you if the Liberal Arts were still widely taught. That is no longer the case.
Everyone has to bring something to the party and being bright isn’t enough.
However, i don't think discrimination really has much to do with the overall numbers here. Only maybe to the extent that some folks look out at the package of hostile nonsense--of which discrimination is a piece--and say "no thanks".
But mostly it think this is just "interest" and "access". More "college material" rural kids don't have college educated parents, and don't see it as a "must do". And--probably the most important item--it's further to get to the local "community college" fallback, a common option for the marginals--and folks who can't afford a four year coming of age party--which are ubiquitous in urban areas. If you have to pile into the car and drive 50 miles each way to community college, you may just decide "forget it".
~~~
The real ridiculous thing here is 59%, 62%, 67% (rural, urban, suburban) college attendance right out of high school. And that's everyone not just the (even higher) white numbers. C'mon, we don't have anywhere near those numbers who are college material.
What the heck are all these people needing "college" for? What is that they are going to learn, that couldn't have been learned in the 12 years ed-biz had them?
The education establishment needs to get its head out of its ass, stop the equalist pretensions and make high school useful in getting average and below students prepared and ready for that work that most people actually do--which certainly should not take a college degree.Replies: @Luke Lea, @newrouter, @S. Anonyia, @njguy73, @oddsbodkins, @Almost Missouri, @Forbes
We need to keep all these people in college to conceal the true unemployment rate.
So many damned lies.
Male (male!!) labor participation is like 70-75%.
It should be 95% like it was in the 50's. I get why not all women are employed, but men? Virtually all me should be working.
Funny that I never read this guy. Heard the name but never came across his books.
http://www.raymonddurgnat.com/index.htm
https://www.jonathanrosenbaum.net/2017/01/raymond-durgnat/
Thanks, Steve.
Now I notice rotting on the vine articles:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/09/27/552636014/theyre-scared-immigration-fears-exacerbate-migrant-farmworker-shortage?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=news
“There are so many migrant workers in this country. You just wonder, do you really see who your population is?”
“We need someone who supports agriculture, someone who supports diversity in this country.”
Without migrant workers to pick the crops, Reamer says, “There wouldn’t be food. It’s just as simple as that.”
You’re killing your father, Larry.
“the impassioned debate over who gets to go to college”
There is no such debate, impassioned or not. Almost literally everyone with the slightest interest can go to college, unless they lack prerequisites–which can be made up–or they’re in a coma. Obviously if they have some kind of disability, they’re taking care of dependents, they live far away from schools and don’t want to move or commute, and so on, those are disincentives. But that doesn’t mean they don’t “get to go,” and we’re talking about broad demographic swathes, a majority of which won’t have such hurdles.
No, the real issues are: who gets access to the top tier of academia, which opens up membership in the ruling class; on behalf of which groups shall we intervene to make enrollment easier. That’s from the perspective of the general public. If you’re interested in expanding the power of the educational establishment, or just leftism in general, the issues are: just how far will we go down the road to making college like high school, and which groups can we highlight to the cause; what unsolved problem can we find that requires us to fix, the more irrelevant the better.
Ah, I’ve got it, rural kids. No one currently cares about them. Let’s exploit that untapped resource. More money, please.
It’s like when advertisers talk about the new “fastest growing” consumer sector. Gotta get to elderly obese transgender black lesbians before the Other Guys. Only with education, it’s a matter of “somebody’s gonna end up with the money, and the ‘fastest growing’ interest is…um…flyover white folks? Whatever. Give us the money, we’ll get to ’em.”
Or simply, “Listen to us. We brought them up. We’re the bringer-uppers. Think about rural kids who probably don’t need school anyway, and while you’re distracted we’ll be over here doing what we actually care about.”
That is prescient, but it is also centralization and the expansion of those national political power centers. Regional fiefs used to matter much more in the pre-internet age. Now that communication and subsequent political projection is instantaneous and seamless, it's far easier for drop-in to occur in fly-over hubs rather than allowing a semi-autonomous regional hierarchy to exist and potentially buck the coastal order. From what I've been told by my academic friends in America, state schools are no longer fairways into regional industries. They're either of the elect who court a few trans-national corporations or they are paper-mills for the unwashed who will gain few, if any, connections.
As college was always equal parts networking opportunity and educational service, the dearth of the former renders a vast number of ersatz "prestigious," regional universities little better than community colleges or vocational school. My read on this article as a whole is that rural whites are being heavily discriminated against by elite universities, but they are also benefiting from being discriminated against by these lesser universities that no longer have much to offer.
As someone who grew up in a rural area, it didn't register for me that the choice of college was so all important. I just saw it as a place to get some education that would assist in getting a job. Maybe things have changed since my day, but I don't think it's changed that much.
There is certainly class awareness in the countryside, but nowhere near what you see in urban/suburban areas. You often associate with people you are familiar with and people have a pretty good idea of what you're all about. They generally won't need to see a degree from a specific school to assess your worth.Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Neuday
Yes, and rightfully so. Unless your degree is one that allows you to serve the needs of others (Med school, computer science, some business degrees, nursing, dental hygiene, etc.) you are wasting your time. Get a trade (plumbing, electrician, HVAC), use your intelligence to better serve others, and you will be much happier than you would have been using college as a path to the same place an HS grad would begin from.
If you graduate from HS, avoid drugs, don’t get pregnant (or father a child), until you are married. And if that is your path, then the USA ought to provide you with a solid middle-class lifestyle.
It's like this:
Jews and Asians -> strictly urban -> obsessed with degrees and academics -> massively overrepresented at universities.
Blacks and Latinos -> largely urban -> appear to actively dislike academics, but are aggressively being sought to fill AA quotas -> overrepresented relative to talent.
Talented foreigners -> actively recruited by American universities -> seek prestigious American degrees plus the American lifestyle -> well represented.
Urban whites -> have the numbers and carry the tradition of having invented the modern world -> get what remains of the spots -> reasonably well represented.
Rural whites -> shafted.Replies: @guest
Are they shafted? Or is a favor being done for them? Not counting the ones who could possibly parlay college into money, position, and power. Because it sucks to be them,* but how many of them are there, as a share of the whole?
The rest, I don’t even expect they’d get properly educated, let alone be better off financially or in the social hierarchy long-term. Which is how college is sold in this country, explicitly or not.
*The whole point of the educational system should be to find them: the diamonds in the rough that can be polished and used to further American civilization. It should not be to make everyone good citizens, provide some basic level of social engineering so everyone behaves themselves, make everyone fit to be cogs in the economy, provide an excuse for the Cathedral to perpetuate itself, and any number of other justifications.
I wonder if the undergraduate admissions office at Stanford emphasizes enrollment from this underrepresented group.
LOL!
The issue with rural whites is similar to the issues with blacks/hispanics.
They weren’t raised to value education, don’t know how to effectively make the most of the system, or have a proper strategy when dealing with college.
Many rural whites would probably qualify for decent aid going to university. At worst, it would be very affordable for them to go to school in their flagship state universities. They don’t need to force themselves to major in STEM either, a business degree or event liberal arts for a practically priced state university will more than pay for the degree.
I'm not sure how one scores in the top decile if they don't value education.
"don’t know how to effectively make the most of the system, or have a proper strategy when dealing with college"
I would hesitate to suggest that is the case either given the proper strategy generally involves aping an inverse of the mores and values that typify rural whites themselves. As others have said, team sports, rural clubs, and other "red state," activities are red flags.
I had the same reaction. Unless you have the talent to go to and excel in, perhaps, law school, why get a liberal arts degree at all, especially at today’s astronomical prices? Read the great books on your own, or maybe go to a community college if you want further instruction. Unless you’re going to college/ university to obtain specific job skills or to prepare for post-graduate education, “higher education” makes little economic sense. Those kids in flyover country are likely making rational decisions.
Why aren't they being given good advice?
This country's affluent, high-earners concentrate in our large cities and suburbs. So if you live outside the major metros, you're not exposed to people who are very financially successful. Therefore, it's easy to remain ignorant about shrewd career strategies if you're in a rural/small-town community.
This shows you the importance of being in the right environment. This also shows you how people (even high-IQ) often make irrational decisions because their environment is inadequate.
HBDers love to claim that environment doesn't matter (or only minimally matters). The reality is that this claim is wrong. Libertarians love to claim that people are rational decision makers, which is an incorrect claim too.Replies: @bomag, @AnotherDad, @Issac
A friend of mine scored, I think, maybe a 31 or 32 on the ACT. He just went to the local university and became a school teacher. Another friend who scored ~30 went to Nebraska and became a very succesful CPA.
They're both plenty happy living in MN and SD.
Another guy I knew demolished the ACT and went on to Berkeley and later to . . . Rice U. (There's always a Steve connection.) He works in Silicon Valley, grinds his ass off and is divorced. (Actually, I think that he might have bailed on the whole thing. Regardless, from his early 20s to, at least, 40, he was busting his balls, though making a ton of money. In the end, it wasnt' worth it for him.)
Point is that we're not necessarily "wasting" that talent, at least assuming that they're pointed in the direction of a reasonable university.Replies: @Diversity Heretic
Astute comment! I’m from the Midwest myself (graduated from high school in 1972) and hardly anyone considered leaving the Midwest to go to college or the university. Going to a state school and then staying in the region is not a bad life strategy.
However, i don't think discrimination really has much to do with the overall numbers here. Only maybe to the extent that some folks look out at the package of hostile nonsense--of which discrimination is a piece--and say "no thanks".
But mostly it think this is just "interest" and "access". More "college material" rural kids don't have college educated parents, and don't see it as a "must do". And--probably the most important item--it's further to get to the local "community college" fallback, a common option for the marginals--and folks who can't afford a four year coming of age party--which are ubiquitous in urban areas. If you have to pile into the car and drive 50 miles each way to community college, you may just decide "forget it".
~~~
The real ridiculous thing here is 59%, 62%, 67% (rural, urban, suburban) college attendance right out of high school. And that's everyone not just the (even higher) white numbers. C'mon, we don't have anywhere near those numbers who are college material.
What the heck are all these people needing "college" for? What is that they are going to learn, that couldn't have been learned in the 12 years ed-biz had them?
The education establishment needs to get its head out of its ass, stop the equalist pretensions and make high school useful in getting average and below students prepared and ready for that work that most people actually do--which certainly should not take a college degree.Replies: @Luke Lea, @newrouter, @S. Anonyia, @njguy73, @oddsbodkins, @Almost Missouri, @Forbes
They need it to show employers what it would look like if they took an aptitude test, since the Supreme Court stupidly forbade employers to give aptitude tests themselves in Griggs v. Duke Power (1971). That dumb decision essentially made academia into a phenomenally expensive tollgate to employment.
I understand that in rural areas there is less snobbery - or at least less snobbery based on education and employment - but most of these folks aren't living down on the farm; they're living in small and medium-sized cities, where social-class distinctions are real. If you come from a middle-class family, you probably want to stay middle class and marry a girl from a similar background, and a degree + white-collar work is pretty much a sine qua non for that.
Besides, not everyone wants or is suited to blue-collar work, nor are there enough well-paying blue collar jobs since the decline of manufacturing.
For many employers, it doesn't matter what the degree is in or (in most places) where it's from as long as it's a legitimate bricks-and-mortar school. What matters is that you stuck it out and got the degree. I wonder if even Walmart requires store managers to have some level of higher education.
It shouldn't be this way, but it is.
I've explained the Griggs disaster to family and friends and mentioned it a few times here in the comments.
Every iSteve reader not aware should familiarize with themselves with Griggs and how it has messed up direct employment testing and helped bloat this educational monster. (Which of course has provided yet more comfy parasitic sinecures for non-productive leftists, including many SJW types.)
~~~
Griggs BTW is another exploding bullet in the lefts arsenal--akin to programs like Section 8--that any sort of real conservative party ought to be taking dead aim at. Congress can directly pass legislation to overturn Griggs and allow employers to devise any testing they want. And it's politically easy to explain this as ending the mandatory degree nonsense and accompanying student loan debt.
In addition the feds or any state could
-- put in place some basic general knowledge "do you know your stuff" tests--basic literacy, read and understand directions, basic numeracy, reading and understanding graphs/tables, basic statistical concepts, basic financial math, US history/gov--with simple (0-100) scoring
-- allow people to tout their scores on these for employment
-- do their general state hiring on the basis of these tests rather than "has college degree"Replies: @Stan d Mute, @Opinionator, @guest
OT
55% of White millennials think the Democratic Party does not care about them.
Would it be wrong to film those crying snowflakes and then post on a new World Star Hip Hop variant? Now, what to name it?
score at the 90th percentile or higher of the SAT/ACT
In that case, you normally get (or got ‘back in the day’, not sure if it still happens) more than a few invitations to apply in the mail, all offering financial aid — mostly from smaller, lesser-known but still selective private schools (marketing/introducing themselves I guess) — so at that time, and at that level, you practically had to explicitly decide not to go — because they were inviting you.
It’s gotta be some kinda joke (?) — even so it’s apropos (hey that rhymes).
College graduates vastly out earning non-graduates.
College graduates also have a much lower rate of unemployment.
College graduates have a much higher rate of labor force participation.
College grads are also much more likely to have health and dental insurance, 401K plans, and other types of benefits.
Going to college is one of the best decisions that a person can make. Your probability of being employed and highly compensated is much higher.
I find it interesting that so many conservatives and HBDers always tell young people to skip college.
This is remarkably bad advice. It’s not like the above graphs are secret knowledge. Since at least the 90s, it’s been well known that college grads had much better economic outcomes than non-grads.
I also find it interesting that so many HBDers obsess over IQ. A college degree is much more associated with income than IQ. See the below graph from a longitudinal study that was mentioned in the Wall Street Journal.
Conclusion:
-A college degree strongly raises income and employment prospects.
-Lack a college degree lowers income and increases probability of unemployment.
-A college degree correlates much more strongly with income than IQ.
-Red State flyover country kids should get college degrees if they want to maximize their economic/career prospects.
Here’s some interesting data.
I did an analysis of the General Social Survey data. I compared the income of people with 75 IQ and a college degree against 125 IQ people with no college degree. The 75-IQ, college-degree people out
earned the 125 IQ, no-degree people.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM (0-2) and DEGREE (3,4). These are people with IQs of 75, but with college degrees. 78% fall in the highest income bucket.
I also filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(0, 1, 2). These are people with IQs of 125, but with no college degree. 57% fall in the highest income bucket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and all levels of education (degree, non-degree). These are the entire sample of people with 125 IQ. 70% fall in the highest income bracket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(3,4). These are people with 125 IQ, but college degree. 79% fall in the highest income bracket.
So even if you have an IQ of 75, you can outearn a 125 IQ person just by finishing college. Even if you compare a 75-IQ college grad to a 125-IQ college grad, they earn roughly the same income.
Therefore, if you’ve got a 75 IQ, the best strategy is to be diligent and finish a college degree. You then get to be middle-class and have higher-IQ people as coworkers.
The GSS Wordsum test is a subcomponent of the Wechsler IQ test. So it's g-loaded.Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Pericles, @AnotherDad, @DRA, @Marty T
My wife teaches at an elite college. We've seen lots of rich kids come here and go on to get great jobs. We've also seen a few bright children of the staff who are allowed to get a free college education here. They go on to get jobs they could have had straight out of high school.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
I won't disagree that you can get a better paying job with a two or four year degree, but I would not recommend that my son get a master's degree unless it was something he really wanted and not for profit. I only have a four year degree myself and its not really stopped me from getting places.
Even if you wanted to play the credentialism game, the university bubble is overheated. Get vendor credentials or licenses instead.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
https://twitter.com/StevenJones_MCR/status/555156227664396289
College graduates also have a much lower rate of unemployment.
https://twitter.com/ttownorso/status/828979471181021184
College graduates have a much higher rate of labor force participation.
https://imgur.com/a/PIvMy
College grads are also much more likely to have health and dental insurance, 401K plans, and other types of benefits.
Going to college is one of the best decisions that a person can make. Your probability of being employed and highly compensated is much higher.
I find it interesting that so many conservatives and HBDers always tell young people to skip college.
This is remarkably bad advice. It's not like the above graphs are secret knowledge. Since at least the 90s, it's been well known that college grads had much better economic outcomes than non-grads.
I also find it interesting that so many HBDers obsess over IQ. A college degree is much more associated with income than IQ. See the below graph from a longitudinal study that was mentioned in the Wall Street Journal.
https://imgur.com/a/lnpLE
Conclusion:
-A college degree strongly raises income and employment prospects.
-Lack a college degree lowers income and increases probability of unemployment.
-A college degree correlates much more strongly with income than IQ.
-Red State flyover country kids should get college degrees if they want to maximize their economic/career prospects.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Desiderius, @John Pepple, @Daniel Chieh, @Issac
Let me repeat a post I made a few months ago.
Here’s some interesting data.
I did an analysis of the General Social Survey data. I compared the income of people with 75 IQ and a college degree against 125 IQ people with no college degree. The 75-IQ, college-degree people out
earned the 125 IQ, no-degree people.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM (0-2) and DEGREE (3,4). These are people with IQs of 75, but with college degrees. 78% fall in the highest income bucket.
I also filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(0, 1, 2). These are people with IQs of 125, but with no college degree. 57% fall in the highest income bucket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and all levels of education (degree, non-degree). These are the entire sample of people with 125 IQ. 70% fall in the highest income bracket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(3,4). These are people with 125 IQ, but college degree. 79% fall in the highest income bracket.
So even if you have an IQ of 75, you can outearn a 125 IQ person just by finishing college. Even if you compare a 75-IQ college grad to a 125-IQ college grad, they earn roughly the same income.
Therefore, if you’ve got a 75 IQ, the best strategy is to be diligent and finish a college degree. You then get to be middle-class and have higher-IQ people as coworkers.
The GSS Wordsum test is a subcomponent of the Wechsler IQ test. So it’s g-loaded.
Higher ed is free in Germany, but much harder admissions standards, and without the waste in administration and buildings that we have here.Replies: @Pericles, @Authenticjazzman
I don't know why it needs to be said--cause it's bloody obvious--but an IQ score is not your "intelligence" but an attempted measurement of your intelligence. An IQ score is not like say measuring your height--which also has noise, but usually is ... your height. An IQ score is more akin to doing a decathalon and saying that's "your athleticism". Depends on the events, the order, your motivation, the day you are having and what particular aspects of "athleticism" are important. And IQ tests are even more removed from the underlying reality than that.And this Wordsum test is ridiculously noisy. 11 buckets. On one particular mental skill--which itself involves the level of previous exposure (how much reading). It's akin to having folks do a high jump and assigning their AQ (athletic quotient) as a result. Hey Johnny didn't even clear 4'8"--he's a 75 AQ!--> Selection
The other obvious factor working is selection. Your "75 IQ" and "graduated college" bucket was--if I remember correctly--all of 2% of the "75 IQ" bucket. In other words it was precisely the freaks of the 75 IQ bucket. Most, i'm guessing, were in the 75 bucket because of noise--not vocab savy, having a bad day, didn't feel like answering the questions--and are actually smarter. But even the ones for whom the score is an accurate, those who soldiered on to a college degree are obviously those who are the highest functioning 75s--able to say the expected things, parrot back what's expected, make a favorable impression on people and have the discipline and drive to get through college even though they are pretty dim. The reality that noise and selection are doing the heavy lifting here, was shown by the statistic you had a month back but aren't repeating here. This tiny tiny lowest Wordsum scores but went to college bucket actually had a higher percentage in the high income bucket, than the (much larger N)next group up in IQ (WORDSUM(3-4), DEGREE(3,4)), which was down in the 50s somewhere. How the heck does that happen? Well the dummy75+college grads are a tiny, tiny, very heavily selected group for drive and diligence. Get up to a larger N and just general "mediocre IQ" and there are a lot more folks blundering on through to a college degree--still pretty selected, but not nearly so as the nominally dumber folks who are the real go-getters of the IQ 75 bucket.Likewise, on the other end, when you talk about WORDSUM(10) people who didn't get through college ... it's because they are either
-- not really high IQ people but just nailed the vocab on this test that day (noise)
-- eclectic beat-on-their-own-drummer free thinkers (also probably not driven to nail down income)
or (biggest bucket)
-- they are really pathetic screw-ups who couldn't organize and discipline themselves enough to get through college which they are obviously capable of. IQ matters, but so does conscientiousness, discipline, ambition.
Again ... selection.So to your conclusion:Not quite. Much more accurate:
"If you scored a 75 IQ on some 10 question Wordsum test, but are actually smart enough to do college anyway and have the exceptional discipline and drive to power on through, then sure go get a college degree and you'll have the entry credential to do a lot of white collar work and earn a decent middle class salary. But if you're really a typical 75 IQ person who struggles vainly with high school work and likely won't finish college, then find something else to do that seems interesting to you and squares up with your strengths."Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
No, not really. They’re just not being exposed to good advice for how to climb the economic ladder. This results in them foregoing college and good economic opportunities.
Why aren’t they being given good advice?
This country’s affluent, high-earners concentrate in our large cities and suburbs. So if you live outside the major metros, you’re not exposed to people who are very financially successful. Therefore, it’s easy to remain ignorant about shrewd career strategies if you’re in a rural/small-town community.
This shows you the importance of being in the right environment. This also shows you how people (even high-IQ) often make irrational decisions because their environment is inadequate.
HBDers love to claim that environment doesn’t matter (or only minimally matters). The reality is that this claim is wrong. Libertarians love to claim that people are rational decision makers, which is an incorrect claim too.
Small town/rural have their issues, but by personal anecdote the most contented people I've known are those from some kind of rural community, e.g. Amish - Mennonite - Hutterite; extended farming families.
Obviously what HBDers claim is that there is a fair amount of "Human Biodiversity"--see it's right there in the name!--between people and (it's a straightforward mathematical corollary) groups. And that this--gasp! (this is the heresy part)--that includes the brain (also part of our biology) and all that it does including our intelligence, interests and personality.
There's nothing in there about "environment doesn't matter"--that's stupid. (See--at national scale--North/South Korea).
In terms of the nature/nurture debate HBDers are simply people who acknowledge that "nature" is powerful. While the ruling ideology--the leftist orthodoxy that's the convenient fable of the ruling liberal establishment--is that nurture is *all powerful*, "everyone should go to college" , "everyone is equal" or at least when it comes to groups, "all races and ethnic groups are the same". This stuff is obviously idiotic and HBDers are simply the people who are saying "the emperor has no clothes".
Given that these are the same people who have sub-replacement TFR and advocate suicidal politics, one could be forgiven thinking that they are neither shrewd nor successful. Financial boons in one or two generations are meaningless if your genetic lineage ends in a subsequent generation. Rural financial under-performers are quite likely (and unintentionally) adopting a superior long-term strategy to optimize for both survival and relative socioeconomic status. Unless a substantial change of heart occurs in the ruling class of America, the affluent cities and suburbs will be ground-zero for some pretty shocking quality of life issues.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
I’ve lived in the flyover district all my life, and have met a ton of people from that area in my parents’ and my own generation who have gone to college and who valued education. Why? Because they could afford it. But this reality has changed dramatically.
Middle-class salaries in the Midwest average around 30, 40, and 50K. Tuition at elite colleges on the coasts are around 50-60K. In other words, no middle-income midwestern parent can afford to send their kid to college. These kids MUST have a full scholarship to be able to go.
But the problem is, there are a heck of a lot of ‘B’ students in the Midwest. Their SAT and ACT scores are good but not great. Many are hard-working, sharp kids with potential. But they can’t get full scholarships with those grades and scores. So the only way they can afford college is to take out a loan for the full amount. Yet going into debt for about 200K to pay for college makes no sense to them, because if they end up working in the Midwest, they’ll still be getting 30, 40, 50K a year in salary. They’ll never be able to pay that debt off. Houses in Midwestern cities are around 200K a year. In very small towns, houses can be around 50K. If you want a house to raise a family in, going into debt like that makes no logical sense. Payments on student loans will prevent you from making house payments.
At most, these kids will look at 10K a year state colleges, but are highly unlikely to go any farther afield, and coastal liberals are beginning to hate and fear this outcome. The sole reason the Atlantic has published this article is to turn Midwestern and rural people into liberals by trying to talk them into attending coastal institutions that will brainwash them with liberal ideology. Otherwise, the magazine really doesn’t care about whites.
Yes, this. In the modern employment world, a college degree is the only way to advance in any white-collar field. It’s often the only way to get a white-collar job at all above the clerical level. Even basic accounting jobs that require little more than the ability to use Excel require degrees in order to keep out the riffraff. (Not that colleges don’t graduate plenty of riffraff, but at least it’s some kind of barrier, imperfect though it may be.)
I understand that in rural areas there is less snobbery – or at least less snobbery based on education and employment – but most of these folks aren’t living down on the farm; they’re living in small and medium-sized cities, where social-class distinctions are real. If you come from a middle-class family, you probably want to stay middle class and marry a girl from a similar background, and a degree + white-collar work is pretty much a sine qua non for that.
Besides, not everyone wants or is suited to blue-collar work, nor are there enough well-paying blue collar jobs since the decline of manufacturing.
For many employers, it doesn’t matter what the degree is in or (in most places) where it’s from as long as it’s a legitimate bricks-and-mortar school. What matters is that you stuck it out and got the degree. I wonder if even Walmart requires store managers to have some level of higher education.
It shouldn’t be this way, but it is.
Here’s some interesting data.
I did an analysis of the General Social Survey data. I compared the income of people with 75 IQ and a college degree against 125 IQ people with no college degree. The 75-IQ, college-degree people out
earned the 125 IQ, no-degree people.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM (0-2) and DEGREE (3,4). These are people with IQs of 75, but with college degrees. 78% fall in the highest income bucket.
I also filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(0, 1, 2). These are people with IQs of 125, but with no college degree. 57% fall in the highest income bucket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and all levels of education (degree, non-degree). These are the entire sample of people with 125 IQ. 70% fall in the highest income bracket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(3,4). These are people with 125 IQ, but college degree. 79% fall in the highest income bracket.
So even if you have an IQ of 75, you can outearn a 125 IQ person just by finishing college. Even if you compare a 75-IQ college grad to a 125-IQ college grad, they earn roughly the same income.
Therefore, if you’ve got a 75 IQ, the best strategy is to be diligent and finish a college degree. You then get to be middle-class and have higher-IQ people as coworkers.
The GSS Wordsum test is a subcomponent of the Wechsler IQ test. So it's g-loaded.Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Pericles, @AnotherDad, @DRA, @Marty T
The payoff was greater for Boomers and Gen X. Student debt numbers, and youth underemployment are the kicker today.
Higher ed is free in Germany, but much harder admissions standards, and without the waste in administration and buildings that we have here.
It's not just there though. I know my old Alma Mater in Sweden quietly had some open admissions mickey mouse programs as well, though the vast majority were restricted. In contrast with the US, there is none of that major/minor nonsense, you apply for, and are admitted to, a certain educational program like engineering, law, medicine, etc. Or, as mentioned, you can go for the less strenuous ones, perhaps with few or no prerequisites.
By the way, Swedish universities don't charge for tuition, until a few years ago not even for foreigners. Instead, universities are reimbursed through taxes at a standard rate, and most if not all are run by the government. At some point, the university admins figured out that they could get $$$ by enrolling brown hordes, and brown hordes realized they would get free degrees, and the ranks started swelling. A friend of mine in the lecture racket used to travel to third world countries to advertise this. I think those were not even open enrollment, but special programs devised to pull in foreigners, taught in English, etc.
Anyway, after a while, the government realized what was going on and introduced a charge for foreign students and interest dropped off rather abruptly. Education as tax scamming and free riding.
Pure nonsense: the university of Heidelberg has admin buildings all over the city, including a gigantic eighteenth century military garrison and an annex donated by the US after ww1.
"Higher ed is free in Germany" : Okay tell that to the armies of german assembly-line tax-slaves, who are paying for this " Free" higher education, without ever having seen a university from the inside.
Perhaps you feel that it is okay for the unwashed masses to finance the follies of the upper classes, however this is a feudalistic mindset, and everything but fair.
Germany has the highest tax-rate world-wide and the brunt of it is paid by the people who receive the least of the so-called benefits.
Authenticjazzman "Mensa" qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army vet, and pro Jazz musician.
LOL!Replies: @Maj. Kong
Stanford doesn’t want to admit more students, to remain prestigious. But they could just as easily share some of that endowment income with less prosperous institutions…
A lot of really small colleges like Lake Erie College in Cleveland and the tiny little Concordia that I attended in Ann Arbor have added Football teams. Why? A quick way to add 50-75 males to your heavily female student body. CUAA is even adding Men’s Hockey which gets them another 20-30 males that played HS Hockey and want to play at a higher level of competition that would not overwhelm them.
https://twitter.com/StevenJones_MCR/status/555156227664396289
College graduates also have a much lower rate of unemployment.
https://twitter.com/ttownorso/status/828979471181021184
College graduates have a much higher rate of labor force participation.
https://imgur.com/a/PIvMy
College grads are also much more likely to have health and dental insurance, 401K plans, and other types of benefits.
Going to college is one of the best decisions that a person can make. Your probability of being employed and highly compensated is much higher.
I find it interesting that so many conservatives and HBDers always tell young people to skip college.
This is remarkably bad advice. It's not like the above graphs are secret knowledge. Since at least the 90s, it's been well known that college grads had much better economic outcomes than non-grads.
I also find it interesting that so many HBDers obsess over IQ. A college degree is much more associated with income than IQ. See the below graph from a longitudinal study that was mentioned in the Wall Street Journal.
https://imgur.com/a/lnpLE
Conclusion:
-A college degree strongly raises income and employment prospects.
-Lack a college degree lowers income and increases probability of unemployment.
-A college degree correlates much more strongly with income than IQ.
-Red State flyover country kids should get college degrees if they want to maximize their economic/career prospects.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Desiderius, @John Pepple, @Daniel Chieh, @Issac
Wet streets cause rain.
My GSS data analysis showed that 75-IQ college grads out earned 125-IQ non-grads. The 75-IQ grads also earned as much as the 125-IQ grads.
Therefore, if you've got a 75 IQ, the best strategy is to get a degree. Then you get to be middle class. However, if you read HBD sites and succumb to fatalism, then you're screwed.Replies: @Desiderius
They score better on the National Assessment of Educational Progress than “urban students”.
Are they “youths”?
Probably 80-90% of the gap between rural and urban attendance rates can be explained by ease of access. If you live in a city you are almost certainly within 20 miles – probably closer – of a community college, at the very least. If you live in a suburb you are both close to a 2 or 4 year college and probably have the means to attend, plus a family encouraging you to go. If you live in a rural community you will probably have to pack up and leave town to attend college. That means costs and disruption that city and suburban kids don’t have to deal with.
Here’s some interesting data.
I did an analysis of the General Social Survey data. I compared the income of people with 75 IQ and a college degree against 125 IQ people with no college degree. The 75-IQ, college-degree people out
earned the 125 IQ, no-degree people.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM (0-2) and DEGREE (3,4). These are people with IQs of 75, but with college degrees. 78% fall in the highest income bucket.
I also filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(0, 1, 2). These are people with IQs of 125, but with no college degree. 57% fall in the highest income bucket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and all levels of education (degree, non-degree). These are the entire sample of people with 125 IQ. 70% fall in the highest income bracket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(3,4). These are people with 125 IQ, but college degree. 79% fall in the highest income bracket.
So even if you have an IQ of 75, you can outearn a 125 IQ person just by finishing college. Even if you compare a 75-IQ college grad to a 125-IQ college grad, they earn roughly the same income.
Therefore, if you’ve got a 75 IQ, the best strategy is to be diligent and finish a college degree. You then get to be middle-class and have higher-IQ people as coworkers.
The GSS Wordsum test is a subcomponent of the Wechsler IQ test. So it's g-loaded.Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Pericles, @AnotherDad, @DRA, @Marty T
How do you finish college with an IQ of 75 in the first place?
https://admissions.umich.edu/academics-majors/majors-degrees
Meanwhile, our engineering schools are mostly filled with Chinese kids paying full out of state tuition. The thing that’s startling is that this is all commonly known and obvious to those on or around campus, but Noticing is thoughtcrime.Replies: @Pericles
3.7% of American-born 75-IQ whites have a college degree. Sample size is about 700.
Maybe it’s an opportunity for a reasonable person trying to run a sober institution to benefit a whole society, but for a SJW it is an outlier that needs to be brutally exterminated by any means.
How long before D.C. institutes sanctions on flyover country States?
Higher ed is free in Germany, but much harder admissions standards, and without the waste in administration and buildings that we have here.Replies: @Pericles, @Authenticjazzman
Germany and France are somewhat infamous for open enrollment in some universities. However, a basic level of competence has to be shown first. I see that Germany requires “Abitur”, the passing a high school final exam, to get in; likewise, France requires a baccalaureat to get into their open admissions public universities.
It’s not just there though. I know my old Alma Mater in Sweden quietly had some open admissions mickey mouse programs as well, though the vast majority were restricted. In contrast with the US, there is none of that major/minor nonsense, you apply for, and are admitted to, a certain educational program like engineering, law, medicine, etc. Or, as mentioned, you can go for the less strenuous ones, perhaps with few or no prerequisites.
By the way, Swedish universities don’t charge for tuition, until a few years ago not even for foreigners. Instead, universities are reimbursed through taxes at a standard rate, and most if not all are run by the government. At some point, the university admins figured out that they could get $$$ by enrolling brown hordes, and brown hordes realized they would get free degrees, and the ranks started swelling. A friend of mine in the lecture racket used to travel to third world countries to advertise this. I think those were not even open enrollment, but special programs devised to pull in foreigners, taught in English, etc.
Anyway, after a while, the government realized what was going on and introduced a charge for foreign students and interest dropped off rather abruptly. Education as tax scamming and free riding.
Easy-Peasy … you play Football. If you have half a brain, you’ll do better in life than anyone else around you.
Why aren't they being given good advice?
This country's affluent, high-earners concentrate in our large cities and suburbs. So if you live outside the major metros, you're not exposed to people who are very financially successful. Therefore, it's easy to remain ignorant about shrewd career strategies if you're in a rural/small-town community.
This shows you the importance of being in the right environment. This also shows you how people (even high-IQ) often make irrational decisions because their environment is inadequate.
HBDers love to claim that environment doesn't matter (or only minimally matters). The reality is that this claim is wrong. Libertarians love to claim that people are rational decision makers, which is an incorrect claim too.Replies: @bomag, @AnotherDad, @Issac
You can’t measure everything by economic success. If the economic ladder means you have to mouth chants for BLM etc; and demographic sterility; it starts to become rational to limit your exposure.
I’m not sure that is a model to brag about.
Small town/rural have their issues, but by personal anecdote the most contented people I’ve known are those from some kind of rural community, e.g. Amish – Mennonite – Hutterite; extended farming families.
Nice of you to be so concerned with whites. How touching. Of course, the “more Asian” thing is what you like about this deal.
In a way, the damage has been done. Affirmative Action started as a call for more Blacks in everything, but since no one really wanted that, it morphed into a call for more people of all kinds; for a universalism of the world’s people in our country; “diversity is our strength”; open borders. Thus, we could dilute the damage and satisfy the AA overlord without hiring anyone too dysfunctional. The Yan Shens of the world have benefited plenty from this arrangement.
Now I notice rotting on the vine articles:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/09/27/552636014/theyre-scared-immigration-fears-exacerbate-migrant-farmworker-shortage?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=news
"There are so many migrant workers in this country. You just wonder, do you really see who your population is?"
"We need someone who supports agriculture, someone who supports diversity in this country."
Without migrant workers to pick the crops, Reamer says, "There wouldn't be food. It's just as simple as that."
You're killing your father, Larry.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DZV_vpkVTNAReplies: @bomag
What a rich article! One stop for all the tropes.
So, I guess, since only Mexicans in Mexico can raise farm workers, if there is any glitch in that resource, we will compelled to subsidize their existence lest the workforce dry up.
Also good here is the underlying premise that economics doesn’t work: we would rather starve to death than pick our own food.
There you are. It’s the whitest part of America, the least influenced by coastal, urban thought; it has the smallest percentage of immigrants of all types; it has the fewest New York Times subscribers, the fewest Elites — and… no surprise, its kids, averaged as a group, are the smartest.
Indeed this is a now a wasted, overlooked resource. This is what most of America used to be like. This is what made this country the place everybody else wanted to come to.
As someone who grew up in a rural area, it didn't register for me that the choice of college was so all important. I just saw it as a place to get some education that would assist in getting a job. Maybe things have changed since my day, but I don't think it's changed that much.
There is certainly class awareness in the countryside, but nowhere near what you see in urban/suburban areas. You often associate with people you are familiar with and people have a pretty good idea of what you're all about. They generally won't need to see a degree from a specific school to assess your worth.Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Neuday
With that attitude you people are going to make crappy Rootless Cosmopolitans. You’re on the wrong side of history! It’s a crisis!
https://twitter.com/StevenJones_MCR/status/555156227664396289
College graduates also have a much lower rate of unemployment.
https://twitter.com/ttownorso/status/828979471181021184
College graduates have a much higher rate of labor force participation.
https://imgur.com/a/PIvMy
College grads are also much more likely to have health and dental insurance, 401K plans, and other types of benefits.
Going to college is one of the best decisions that a person can make. Your probability of being employed and highly compensated is much higher.
I find it interesting that so many conservatives and HBDers always tell young people to skip college.
This is remarkably bad advice. It's not like the above graphs are secret knowledge. Since at least the 90s, it's been well known that college grads had much better economic outcomes than non-grads.
I also find it interesting that so many HBDers obsess over IQ. A college degree is much more associated with income than IQ. See the below graph from a longitudinal study that was mentioned in the Wall Street Journal.
https://imgur.com/a/lnpLE
Conclusion:
-A college degree strongly raises income and employment prospects.
-Lack a college degree lowers income and increases probability of unemployment.
-A college degree correlates much more strongly with income than IQ.
-Red State flyover country kids should get college degrees if they want to maximize their economic/career prospects.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Desiderius, @John Pepple, @Daniel Chieh, @Issac
I’d want to see a breakdown of these statistics by class before I trusted them. They are based on the average college student, and the average college student is either upper class or upper-middle class. Why should these results apply to those in the bottom half, especially rural whites?
My wife teaches at an elite college. We’ve seen lots of rich kids come here and go on to get great jobs. We’ve also seen a few bright children of the staff who are allowed to get a free college education here. They go on to get jobs they could have had straight out of high school.
For those with a degree, 40% were in the highest 2 quintiles. For those with no degree, only 15% were in the highest 2 quintiles.
http://www.hamiltonproject.org/charts/income_quintile_of_adults_born_into_lowest-quintile_families_by_collegReplies: @Desiderius
What are the best subjects to study if you have a 75 IQ? Modern dance?
Usually but not necessarily. I know a physician’s family with three kids of similarly high intelligence. One followed in his father’s footsteps, the other always like to “work with his hands” and never went to college. He started as a contractor, and became a successful builder employing dozens of people (if not more) and making at least as much as his older brother (the daughter went to a good school and married well, I think she’s a teacher).
Excellent Almost.
I’ve explained the Griggs disaster to family and friends and mentioned it a few times here in the comments.
Every iSteve reader not aware should familiarize with themselves with Griggs and how it has messed up direct employment testing and helped bloat this educational monster. (Which of course has provided yet more comfy parasitic sinecures for non-productive leftists, including many SJW types.)
~~~
Griggs BTW is another exploding bullet in the lefts arsenal–akin to programs like Section 8–that any sort of real conservative party ought to be taking dead aim at. Congress can directly pass legislation to overturn Griggs and allow employers to devise any testing they want. And it’s politically easy to explain this as ending the mandatory degree nonsense and accompanying student loan debt.
In addition the feds or any state could
— put in place some basic general knowledge “do you know your stuff” tests–basic literacy, read and understand directions, basic numeracy, reading and understanding graphs/tables, basic statistical concepts, basic financial math, US history/gov–with simple (0-100) scoring
— allow people to tout their scores on these for employment
— do their general state hiring on the basis of these tests rather than “has college degree”
HR gatekeepers are typically NOT higher IQ people. And like most with average to below average (1SD) IQ, they appear to have a strong bias against evidence of their own limitations.
*I mention Mensa only because of the name recognition and my direct experience with it - the organization itself is pathetic. It explicitly disavows HBD and reacts furiously whenever the topic rears it’s ugly head.Replies: @AnotherDad, @DRA
What is the way to go about doing this?
SCOTUS can overturn them right back. They don't like to strike down federal laws, but they ignore/creatively interpret them all the time.Replies: @MarkinLA
First, you get admitted using AA or legacy or “out of state” tuition price. Then you major in navel gazing like Gender Studies, Latino Studies, African Studies, Dance, etc. Look at the list from a top ranked public university below. Remember the university and therefore the Deans, Profs, and TA’s are all under enormous pressure to graduate diversities. Try to read Michelle Obama’s thesis for a real world example of the result of this pressure. We are graduating functional illiterates with “prestigious” degrees by the tens of thousands every year. And while there are far fewer IQ75 morons graduating med school or law school than LSA navel gazing, do you want an IQ 95 doctor or lawyer who was graduated solely to inflate the number of diversity grads?
https://admissions.umich.edu/academics-majors/majors-degrees
Meanwhile, our engineering schools are mostly filled with Chinese kids paying full out of state tuition. The thing that’s startling is that this is all commonly known and obvious to those on or around campus, but Noticing is thoughtcrime.
Why aren't they being given good advice?
This country's affluent, high-earners concentrate in our large cities and suburbs. So if you live outside the major metros, you're not exposed to people who are very financially successful. Therefore, it's easy to remain ignorant about shrewd career strategies if you're in a rural/small-town community.
This shows you the importance of being in the right environment. This also shows you how people (even high-IQ) often make irrational decisions because their environment is inadequate.
HBDers love to claim that environment doesn't matter (or only minimally matters). The reality is that this claim is wrong. Libertarians love to claim that people are rational decision makers, which is an incorrect claim too.Replies: @bomag, @AnotherDad, @Issac
No, this is an autistic straw-man version of what HBDers claim.
Obviously what HBDers claim is that there is a fair amount of “Human Biodiversity”–see it’s right there in the name!–between people and (it’s a straightforward mathematical corollary) groups. And that this–gasp! (this is the heresy part)–that includes the brain (also part of our biology) and all that it does including our intelligence, interests and personality.
There’s nothing in there about “environment doesn’t matter”–that’s stupid. (See–at national scale–North/South Korea).
In terms of the nature/nurture debate HBDers are simply people who acknowledge that “nature” is powerful. While the ruling ideology–the leftist orthodoxy that’s the convenient fable of the ruling liberal establishment–is that nurture is *all powerful*, “everyone should go to college” , “everyone is equal” or at least when it comes to groups, “all races and ethnic groups are the same”. This stuff is obviously idiotic and HBDers are simply the people who are saying “the emperor has no clothes”.
I've explained the Griggs disaster to family and friends and mentioned it a few times here in the comments.
Every iSteve reader not aware should familiarize with themselves with Griggs and how it has messed up direct employment testing and helped bloat this educational monster. (Which of course has provided yet more comfy parasitic sinecures for non-productive leftists, including many SJW types.)
~~~
Griggs BTW is another exploding bullet in the lefts arsenal--akin to programs like Section 8--that any sort of real conservative party ought to be taking dead aim at. Congress can directly pass legislation to overturn Griggs and allow employers to devise any testing they want. And it's politically easy to explain this as ending the mandatory degree nonsense and accompanying student loan debt.
In addition the feds or any state could
-- put in place some basic general knowledge "do you know your stuff" tests--basic literacy, read and understand directions, basic numeracy, reading and understanding graphs/tables, basic statistical concepts, basic financial math, US history/gov--with simple (0-100) scoring
-- allow people to tout their scores on these for employment
-- do their general state hiring on the basis of these tests rather than "has college degree"Replies: @Stan d Mute, @Opinionator, @guest
Anecdotally, I experimented with this using resumes that included my Mensa* membership and resumes that didn’t. The result was zero response to the Mensa version and good response to the non-Mensa (that was the sole variable). Over the years there have been countless discussion threads within Mensa on whether or not to mention it in job seeking and the results have always matched my own.
HR gatekeepers are typically NOT higher IQ people. And like most with average to below average (1SD) IQ, they appear to have a strong bias against evidence of their own limitations.
*I mention Mensa only because of the name recognition and my direct experience with it – the organization itself is pathetic. It explicitly disavows HBD and reacts furiously whenever the topic rears it’s ugly head.
However, I think with a little work--where these tests are mainstreamed as "bypass college debt"--this can be ratchetted down to the level of putting GPA on there. We could have a system like the Brits where there are levels and you could having "Interpreting graphical data A-level". (Though I much prefer full scores/more granularity.)
Mensa on a resume is a particular problem because it is so *utterly useless*. It really is "hey, I think i'm God's gift to the world" pomposity. (And also because it's pomposity from people who ... really aren't incredibly smart. It's not exactly a genius level bar.) And the word "Mensa" radiates a bit of a masturbatory vibe--self-enamored folks who sit around doing crosswords or puzzle problem endless stroking their intellects, rather than say actually doing something useful. I really value smarts in people--it really matters, helps avoid lots of mistakes and waste and in seizing opportunities. But if I saw "Mensa" down on a guy's resume, it would definitely give me pause. It would make me think "let's just find a guy with decent 1400+ SATs who actually does stuff, and let this clown go stroke himself." (BTW in all the years I interviewed folks, I can't recall seeing "Mensa" down on a resume. GPA and honors all the time.)Replies: @Stan d Mute
I doubt that the HR people ever read to the bottom of those resumes, and the professional staff probably found mention of Mensa a plus. When Mensa was included in a subsequent resume reviewed by a consultant hired to help a potential employer select hires, the interviewer did mention it and I got a negative reaction and no job, so I discontinued using it.
My next and final job change was a result of being recruited by a firm that had hired a coworker, so any resume had little to do with the decision.
And I don't think that anybody actually checked to see if I was actually a member! Sort of a "can't ask, don't notice" situation I guess....Replies: @Stan d Mute
https://twitter.com/StevenJones_MCR/status/555156227664396289
College graduates also have a much lower rate of unemployment.
https://twitter.com/ttownorso/status/828979471181021184
College graduates have a much higher rate of labor force participation.
https://imgur.com/a/PIvMy
College grads are also much more likely to have health and dental insurance, 401K plans, and other types of benefits.
Going to college is one of the best decisions that a person can make. Your probability of being employed and highly compensated is much higher.
I find it interesting that so many conservatives and HBDers always tell young people to skip college.
This is remarkably bad advice. It's not like the above graphs are secret knowledge. Since at least the 90s, it's been well known that college grads had much better economic outcomes than non-grads.
I also find it interesting that so many HBDers obsess over IQ. A college degree is much more associated with income than IQ. See the below graph from a longitudinal study that was mentioned in the Wall Street Journal.
https://imgur.com/a/lnpLE
Conclusion:
-A college degree strongly raises income and employment prospects.
-Lack a college degree lowers income and increases probability of unemployment.
-A college degree correlates much more strongly with income than IQ.
-Red State flyover country kids should get college degrees if they want to maximize their economic/career prospects.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Desiderius, @John Pepple, @Daniel Chieh, @Issac
Those graphs don’t take into account the amount of debt you can get.
I won’t disagree that you can get a better paying job with a two or four year degree, but I would not recommend that my son get a master’s degree unless it was something he really wanted and not for profit. I only have a four year degree myself and its not really stopped me from getting places.
Even if you wanted to play the credentialism game, the university bubble is overheated. Get vendor credentials or licenses instead.
Over a 40 year career (age 22-62), that's annualized at about 1K/yr.
The average college pays off college loans for about 10 years, at about $3400 (on average) per year.
So, even with the loans factored in, college is a very good deal from the perspective of wealth maximization.
The concern of the author isn’t that these kids are missing out on education. The concern is that they aren’t going to college where they can be sufficiently brainwashed into voting Progressive Dem.
I guess she is concerned that too many "dumb rednecks" aren't so dumb and she envisions converting them to her SJW religion.Replies: @Marty T
I've explained the Griggs disaster to family and friends and mentioned it a few times here in the comments.
Every iSteve reader not aware should familiarize with themselves with Griggs and how it has messed up direct employment testing and helped bloat this educational monster. (Which of course has provided yet more comfy parasitic sinecures for non-productive leftists, including many SJW types.)
~~~
Griggs BTW is another exploding bullet in the lefts arsenal--akin to programs like Section 8--that any sort of real conservative party ought to be taking dead aim at. Congress can directly pass legislation to overturn Griggs and allow employers to devise any testing they want. And it's politically easy to explain this as ending the mandatory degree nonsense and accompanying student loan debt.
In addition the feds or any state could
-- put in place some basic general knowledge "do you know your stuff" tests--basic literacy, read and understand directions, basic numeracy, reading and understanding graphs/tables, basic statistical concepts, basic financial math, US history/gov--with simple (0-100) scoring
-- allow people to tout their scores on these for employment
-- do their general state hiring on the basis of these tests rather than "has college degree"Replies: @Stan d Mute, @Opinionator, @guest
Every iSteve reader not aware should familiarize with themselves with Griggs and how it has messed up direct employment testing and helped bloat this educational monster
What is the way to go about doing this?
“Having lived in nowhereville for two decades not so long ago my impression is that these kids have family businesses to enter and families that are entirely unimpressed with the communist indoctrination on every campus but Hillsdale”
Hillsdale gives them that righteous LIBERTARIAN–aka “cuckservative”– indoctrination!!!
” Now I am guessing they are the backbone of the alt right”.
And I am guessing that you are a : deutscher Besserwisser, und wir haben genug unter deutscher Besserwisserei im letzten Jahrhundert gelitten.
Die Welt soll nicht mehr am deutschen Wesen genesen, genug ist genug.
Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army Vet, and pro jazz musician.
Higher ed is free in Germany, but much harder admissions standards, and without the waste in administration and buildings that we have here.Replies: @Pericles, @Authenticjazzman
” without the waste in administration buildings that we have here” ( Europe)
Pure nonsense: the university of Heidelberg has admin buildings all over the city, including a gigantic eighteenth century military garrison and an annex donated by the US after ww1.
“Higher ed is free in Germany” : Okay tell that to the armies of german assembly-line tax-slaves, who are paying for this ” Free” higher education, without ever having seen a university from the inside.
Perhaps you feel that it is okay for the unwashed masses to finance the follies of the upper classes, however this is a feudalistic mindset, and everything but fair.
Germany has the highest tax-rate world-wide and the brunt of it is paid by the people who receive the least of the so-called benefits.
Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army vet, and pro Jazz musician.
55% of White millennials think the Democratic Party does not care about them.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKxnE59VwAAiFPq.pngReplies: @Anonymous
The 68% Asians who say the Democrat Party cares about people like them are the biggest buffoons there are, total mindless kool-aid drinkers. The liberals who run/support the Democrat party are the same liberals who actively discriminate against them in elite colleges, Hollywood and corporate boardrooms.
Colleges these days are in the credentialing service. No one knows what is really taught or learned anymore. Sadly too many employers still rely on that increasingly worthless diploma for recruiting because the law forbids them from administering their own exams for potential recruits. What does a degree in liberal arts even mean these days except to indicate you’ve been properly indoctrinated? George Will once reported that only something like 7 colleges in the US actually require history majors to take a class in US history. It seems as long as you have an opinion (and a politically correct one) you can get a degree in any liberal arts subject.
It’s high time for industries to come up with a new credentialing service that test actual skills needed for the jobs, much like the CPA, CFA, BAR, ARE, MCAT etc. Make one such exam for every type of degree, from History to English to Computer science, Math, Physics, Chemistry, to engineering. The science and engineering exams could include hands on lab testing. Then make it so that anyone can take these exams, with or without a college degree. Let the smart, driven kids out there bypass an expensive college degree, self-teach and get certified. If these certification exams are done well, employers will begin to accept them in lieu of college diplomas, and the college indoctrination industry will collapse. Our country will be stronger for it.
This might explain the apparent paradox that the non-flagship, often “directional”, state college faculties are relatively more conservative than the elite private ones.
I always thought it ironic that in the ’70s and ’80s, the only schools that would hire libertarian scholars were state schools. Even Murray Rothbard ended up at UNLV, the public answer to the Culinary Institute of America. Robert Nozick was an exception, but he wasn’t part of the “movement”.
They have “makerspaces” now. Which will probably pay off better than college attendance, as we robotize, and doesn’t leave one in debt.
Also, anyone who flies to Orlando for vacation is just as guilty of “flyover condescension” as some coastal snob. (Litorally.) Think of all the America they refuse to drive, or even train, through.
Slightly off-topic, the three NFL teams with the fewest members involved in the BLM-BM are in San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Carolina. Who’lda thunk it?
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/2017/09/27/packers-national-anthem-plans-continue-rile-fans/703520001/
Here’s some interesting data.
I did an analysis of the General Social Survey data. I compared the income of people with 75 IQ and a college degree against 125 IQ people with no college degree. The 75-IQ, college-degree people out
earned the 125 IQ, no-degree people.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM (0-2) and DEGREE (3,4). These are people with IQs of 75, but with college degrees. 78% fall in the highest income bucket.
I also filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(0, 1, 2). These are people with IQs of 125, but with no college degree. 57% fall in the highest income bucket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and all levels of education (degree, non-degree). These are the entire sample of people with 125 IQ. 70% fall in the highest income bracket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(3,4). These are people with 125 IQ, but college degree. 79% fall in the highest income bracket.
So even if you have an IQ of 75, you can outearn a 125 IQ person just by finishing college. Even if you compare a 75-IQ college grad to a 125-IQ college grad, they earn roughly the same income.
Therefore, if you’ve got a 75 IQ, the best strategy is to be diligent and finish a college degree. You then get to be middle-class and have higher-IQ people as coworkers.
The GSS Wordsum test is a subcomponent of the Wechsler IQ test. So it's g-loaded.Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Pericles, @AnotherDad, @DRA, @Marty T
I remember it. Let me repeat the criticisms that I and others made of your conclusions:
Basically what you are reporting on is based on two big things–*noise* and *selection*.
–> Noise.
I don’t know why it needs to be said–cause it’s bloody obvious–but an IQ score is not your “intelligence” but an attempted measurement of your intelligence.
An IQ score is not like say measuring your height–which also has noise, but usually is … your height. An IQ score is more akin to doing a decathalon and saying that’s “your athleticism”. Depends on the events, the order, your motivation, the day you are having and what particular aspects of “athleticism” are important. And IQ tests are even more removed from the underlying reality than that.
And this Wordsum test is ridiculously noisy. 11 buckets. On one particular mental skill–which itself involves the level of previous exposure (how much reading). It’s akin to having folks do a high jump and assigning their AQ (athletic quotient) as a result. Hey Johnny didn’t even clear 4’8″–he’s a 75 AQ!
–> Selection
The other obvious factor working is selection. Your “75 IQ” and “graduated college” bucket was–if I remember correctly–all of 2% of the “75 IQ” bucket. In other words it was precisely the freaks of the 75 IQ bucket. Most, i’m guessing, were in the 75 bucket because of noise–not vocab savy, having a bad day, didn’t feel like answering the questions–and are actually smarter. But even the ones for whom the score is an accurate, those who soldiered on to a college degree are obviously those who are the highest functioning 75s–able to say the expected things, parrot back what’s expected, make a favorable impression on people and have the discipline and drive to get through college even though they are pretty dim.
The reality that noise and selection are doing the heavy lifting here, was shown by the statistic you had a month back but aren’t repeating here. This tiny tiny lowest Wordsum scores but went to college bucket actually had a higher percentage in the high income bucket, than the (much larger N)next group up in IQ (WORDSUM(3-4), DEGREE(3,4)), which was down in the 50s somewhere. How the heck does that happen? Well the dummy75+college grads are a tiny, tiny, very heavily selected group for drive and diligence. Get up to a larger N and just general “mediocre IQ” and there are a lot more folks blundering on through to a college degree–still pretty selected, but not nearly so as the nominally dumber folks who are the real go-getters of the IQ 75 bucket.
Likewise, on the other end, when you talk about WORDSUM(10) people who didn’t get through college … it’s because they are either
— not really high IQ people but just nailed the vocab on this test that day (noise)
— eclectic beat-on-their-own-drummer free thinkers (also probably not driven to nail down income)
or (biggest bucket)
— they are really pathetic screw-ups who couldn’t organize and discipline themselves enough to get through college which they are obviously capable of. IQ matters, but so does conscientiousness, discipline, ambition.
Again … selection.
So to your conclusion:
Not quite. Much more accurate:
“If you scored a 75 IQ on some 10 question Wordsum test, but are actually smart enough to do college anyway and have the exceptional discipline and drive to power on through, then sure go get a college degree and you’ll have the entry credential to do a lot of white collar work and earn a decent middle class salary. But if you’re really a typical 75 IQ person who struggles vainly with high school work and likely won’t finish college, then find something else to do that seems interesting to you and squares up with your strengths.”
Here's why. For American-born 88-IQ whites, the sample size was over 3,000. 4.6% had a college degree. So the sample of college grads (about 140 respondents). There's less noise and distortion. 86% earn $25,000 (or more) per year. That's consistent with the earlier 75-IQ income data.
For American-born 125 IQ whites with a degree, 83% earn $25,000 (or more) per year. For American-born 125 IQ whites (both degree and non-degree), 77% earn that much. For American-born 125 IQ whites with no degree, 65% earn that much.
It's not just noise and selection. The results are true even if you expand the sample size.Wordsum is a subcomponent of the fairly respected Wechsler IQ test.Okay, but these people are holding their own against 125-IQ college grads. They earn roughly similar income, which is pretty good.I got an N=147 for American-born white college grads. The trend remains the sample. 147 isn't a huge size, but it's not a bad sample size.
When I looked at 95-IQ white, American-born grads, 85% earned $25,000 or more per year. The sample size is 430.Even if you compare WORDSUM(10), 125-IQ college grads to WORDSUM(0-2), 75-IQ, college grads, income is similar. Which means that a low-IQ college grad can earn the sample as a very bright college grad.
It's probably pretty hard for the 75-IQ kid to get a degree, but he should try. It'll maximize his odds for high income and employment.
I was a downstate IL white student that did not go directly from high school to college. In my case, I had developed an interest in history during junior high and high school, and applied and was accepted at a nearby state university.
As I would be paying my own way through college I then researched job opportunities for someone with a B.A. in history. What I found suggested that being a taxi driver was likely to be the most remunerative occupation with a credential in that field, even with a Phd.
After four years of life and work experience I went to the University of Illinois and had a rewarding carrier as a civil engineer. And I was able to read as much about history as I wanted. And I still do.
In retrospect, not going to college directly from high school was the wisest thing I have ever done.
That study also showed that there was active discrimination against rural whites when it came to brownie points for extra curricular activities. DON’T put on your application that you got won an award in animal husbandry.
http://legalruralism.blogspot.com/2010/07/disadvantage-for-rural-whites-in.html
“World Star Milk Sop”
There is no such debate, impassioned or not. Almost literally everyone with the slightest interest can go to college, unless they lack prerequisites--which can be made up--or they're in a coma. Obviously if they have some kind of disability, they're taking care of dependents, they live far away from schools and don't want to move or commute, and so on, those are disincentives. But that doesn't mean they don't "get to go," and we're talking about broad demographic swathes, a majority of which won't have such hurdles.
No, the real issues are: who gets access to the top tier of academia, which opens up membership in the ruling class; on behalf of which groups shall we intervene to make enrollment easier. That's from the perspective of the general public. If you're interested in expanding the power of the educational establishment, or just leftism in general, the issues are: just how far will we go down the road to making college like high school, and which groups can we highlight to the cause; what unsolved problem can we find that requires us to fix, the more irrelevant the better.
Ah, I've got it, rural kids. No one currently cares about them. Let's exploit that untapped resource. More money, please.
It's like when advertisers talk about the new "fastest growing" consumer sector. Gotta get to elderly obese transgender black lesbians before the Other Guys. Only with education, it's a matter of "somebody's gonna end up with the money, and the 'fastest growing' interest is...um...flyover white folks? Whatever. Give us the money, we'll get to 'em."
Or simply, "Listen to us. We brought them up. We're the bringer-uppers. Think about rural kids who probably don't need school anyway, and while you're distracted we'll be over here doing what we actually care about."Replies: @Issac
“No, the real issues are: who gets access to the top tier of academia, which opens up membership in the ruling class; on behalf of which groups shall we intervene to make enrollment easier. ”
That is prescient, but it is also centralization and the expansion of those national political power centers. Regional fiefs used to matter much more in the pre-internet age. Now that communication and subsequent political projection is instantaneous and seamless, it’s far easier for drop-in to occur in fly-over hubs rather than allowing a semi-autonomous regional hierarchy to exist and potentially buck the coastal order. From what I’ve been told by my academic friends in America, state schools are no longer fairways into regional industries. They’re either of the elect who court a few trans-national corporations or they are paper-mills for the unwashed who will gain few, if any, connections.
As college was always equal parts networking opportunity and educational service, the dearth of the former renders a vast number of ersatz “prestigious,” regional universities little better than community colleges or vocational school. My read on this article as a whole is that rural whites are being heavily discriminated against by elite universities, but they are also benefiting from being discriminated against by these lesser universities that no longer have much to offer.
They weren't raised to value education, don't know how to effectively make the most of the system, or have a proper strategy when dealing with college.
Many rural whites would probably qualify for decent aid going to university. At worst, it would be very affordable for them to go to school in their flagship state universities. They don't need to force themselves to major in STEM either, a business degree or event liberal arts for a practically priced state university will more than pay for the degree.Replies: @Issac, @Joe Schmoe
“They weren’t raised to value education”
I’m not sure how one scores in the top decile if they don’t value education.
“don’t know how to effectively make the most of the system, or have a proper strategy when dealing with college”
I would hesitate to suggest that is the case either given the proper strategy generally involves aping an inverse of the mores and values that typify rural whites themselves. As others have said, team sports, rural clubs, and other “red state,” activities are red flags.
https://twitter.com/StevenJones_MCR/status/555156227664396289
College graduates also have a much lower rate of unemployment.
https://twitter.com/ttownorso/status/828979471181021184
College graduates have a much higher rate of labor force participation.
https://imgur.com/a/PIvMy
College grads are also much more likely to have health and dental insurance, 401K plans, and other types of benefits.
Going to college is one of the best decisions that a person can make. Your probability of being employed and highly compensated is much higher.
I find it interesting that so many conservatives and HBDers always tell young people to skip college.
This is remarkably bad advice. It's not like the above graphs are secret knowledge. Since at least the 90s, it's been well known that college grads had much better economic outcomes than non-grads.
I also find it interesting that so many HBDers obsess over IQ. A college degree is much more associated with income than IQ. See the below graph from a longitudinal study that was mentioned in the Wall Street Journal.
https://imgur.com/a/lnpLE
Conclusion:
-A college degree strongly raises income and employment prospects.
-Lack a college degree lowers income and increases probability of unemployment.
-A college degree correlates much more strongly with income than IQ.
-Red State flyover country kids should get college degrees if they want to maximize their economic/career prospects.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Desiderius, @John Pepple, @Daniel Chieh, @Issac
Control for race and socioeconomic status.
Why aren't they being given good advice?
This country's affluent, high-earners concentrate in our large cities and suburbs. So if you live outside the major metros, you're not exposed to people who are very financially successful. Therefore, it's easy to remain ignorant about shrewd career strategies if you're in a rural/small-town community.
This shows you the importance of being in the right environment. This also shows you how people (even high-IQ) often make irrational decisions because their environment is inadequate.
HBDers love to claim that environment doesn't matter (or only minimally matters). The reality is that this claim is wrong. Libertarians love to claim that people are rational decision makers, which is an incorrect claim too.Replies: @bomag, @AnotherDad, @Issac
“This country’s affluent, high-earners concentrate in our large cities and suburbs. So if you live outside the major metros, you’re not exposed to people who are very financially successful. Therefore, it’s easy to remain ignorant about shrewd career strategies if you’re in a rural/small-town community.”
Given that these are the same people who have sub-replacement TFR and advocate suicidal politics, one could be forgiven thinking that they are neither shrewd nor successful. Financial boons in one or two generations are meaningless if your genetic lineage ends in a subsequent generation. Rural financial under-performers are quite likely (and unintentionally) adopting a superior long-term strategy to optimize for both survival and relative socioeconomic status. Unless a substantial change of heart occurs in the ruling class of America, the affluent cities and suburbs will be ground-zero for some pretty shocking quality of life issues.
What's the point of lots of kids if you have to watch them suffer?
Here’s some interesting data.
I did an analysis of the General Social Survey data. I compared the income of people with 75 IQ and a college degree against 125 IQ people with no college degree. The 75-IQ, college-degree people out
earned the 125 IQ, no-degree people.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM (0-2) and DEGREE (3,4). These are people with IQs of 75, but with college degrees. 78% fall in the highest income bucket.
I also filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(0, 1, 2). These are people with IQs of 125, but with no college degree. 57% fall in the highest income bucket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and all levels of education (degree, non-degree). These are the entire sample of people with 125 IQ. 70% fall in the highest income bracket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(3,4). These are people with 125 IQ, but college degree. 79% fall in the highest income bracket.
So even if you have an IQ of 75, you can outearn a 125 IQ person just by finishing college. Even if you compare a 75-IQ college grad to a 125-IQ college grad, they earn roughly the same income.
Therefore, if you’ve got a 75 IQ, the best strategy is to be diligent and finish a college degree. You then get to be middle-class and have higher-IQ people as coworkers.
The GSS Wordsum test is a subcomponent of the Wechsler IQ test. So it's g-loaded.Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Pericles, @AnotherDad, @DRA, @Marty T
What percent of those 75 IQ college graduates became government bureaucrats? Just saying…
https://admissions.umich.edu/academics-majors/majors-degrees
Meanwhile, our engineering schools are mostly filled with Chinese kids paying full out of state tuition. The thing that’s startling is that this is all commonly known and obvious to those on or around campus, but Noticing is thoughtcrime.Replies: @Pericles
Recall that 75 IQ is an amazing 2/3SD below the black average. They are thus among the lowest-scoring fourth or so of blacks.
I have read parts of Michelle Obama’s Princeton thesis, and it is indeed a bit sad.
https://obamaprincetonthesis.wordpress.com/
Don’t miss the mention of Black Power, separatism and “group solidarity is necessary before a group can operate effectively from a bargaining position of strength in a pluralistic society”.
We end up with a questionnaire to Black alumni regarding their feelings about Blackness and an analysis of the responses. Still, it’s not written by someone with IQ 75.
I did a desultory search but only found pages along the lines of "For the study, researchers followed a group of 141 kids with IQ scores ranging from 40 to 80, all of whom were able to speak. ... After four years, the students who received the specialized instruction performed significantly better on a variety of reading tests compared to those who participated in the traditional lessons, the study found."
And if, after years at Princeton, Mrs Obama’s thesis is “blackity blackity black yo!” then my point remains unchallenged. I’ll give you credit for reading/quoting it though - I tried once, made it perhaps 2-3 paragraphs, and listened to Al Sharpton on YouTube instead because there was less gibberish.
What is the likelihood of someone with IQ 75 being literate or functionally literate?
I did a desultory search but only found pages along the lines of “For the study, researchers followed a group of 141 kids with IQ scores ranging from 40 to 80, all of whom were able to speak. … After four years, the students who received the specialized instruction performed significantly better on a variety of reading tests compared to those who participated in the traditional lessons, the study found.”
HR gatekeepers are typically NOT higher IQ people. And like most with average to below average (1SD) IQ, they appear to have a strong bias against evidence of their own limitations.
*I mention Mensa only because of the name recognition and my direct experience with it - the organization itself is pathetic. It explicitly disavows HBD and reacts furiously whenever the topic rears it’s ugly head.Replies: @AnotherDad, @DRA
Stan, I agree with you that there is going to be some sort of problem putting any sort of test scores on a resume, because of the pompous “you think you’re so smart” problem.
However, I think with a little work–where these tests are mainstreamed as “bypass college debt”–this can be ratchetted down to the level of putting GPA on there. We could have a system like the Brits where there are levels and you could having “Interpreting graphical data A-level”. (Though I much prefer full scores/more granularity.)
Mensa on a resume is a particular problem because it is so *utterly useless*. It really is “hey, I think i’m God’s gift to the world” pomposity. (And also because it’s pomposity from people who … really aren’t incredibly smart. It’s not exactly a genius level bar.) And the word “Mensa” radiates a bit of a masturbatory vibe–self-enamored folks who sit around doing crosswords or puzzle problem endless stroking their intellects, rather than say actually doing something useful. I really value smarts in people–it really matters, helps avoid lots of mistakes and waste and in seizing opportunities. But if I saw “Mensa” down on a guy’s resume, it would definitely give me pause. It would make me think “let’s just find a guy with decent 1400+ SATs who actually does stuff, and let this clown go stroke himself.” (BTW in all the years I interviewed folks, I can’t recall seeing “Mensa” down on a resume. GPA and honors all the time.)
Using an IQ proxy like ASVAB, ACT, or SAT will be the same as just posting your WAIS or SB score and encounter the same hostility.
I agree 100% on Mensa, it’s a pathetic joke. I rejoin periodically to see firsthand and confirm that it remains a puzzle club for social misfits then get threatened with expulsion for “Acts Inimical” and quit for another 5-10 years. It’s the sort of thing one might join as a teenager around the same time one tests out of high school a couple of years early hoping naively to find someplace idiot-free. As you mature you realize there is no such place.
Unfortunately, with IQ 75 you’re in the grey area of actually having half a brain. But worse for our purposes is that it also confounds the question of education vs IQ. The education part in this case is an irrelevant historical artifact of how pro players are recruited.
I've explained the Griggs disaster to family and friends and mentioned it a few times here in the comments.
Every iSteve reader not aware should familiarize with themselves with Griggs and how it has messed up direct employment testing and helped bloat this educational monster. (Which of course has provided yet more comfy parasitic sinecures for non-productive leftists, including many SJW types.)
~~~
Griggs BTW is another exploding bullet in the lefts arsenal--akin to programs like Section 8--that any sort of real conservative party ought to be taking dead aim at. Congress can directly pass legislation to overturn Griggs and allow employers to devise any testing they want. And it's politically easy to explain this as ending the mandatory degree nonsense and accompanying student loan debt.
In addition the feds or any state could
-- put in place some basic general knowledge "do you know your stuff" tests--basic literacy, read and understand directions, basic numeracy, reading and understanding graphs/tables, basic statistical concepts, basic financial math, US history/gov--with simple (0-100) scoring
-- allow people to tout their scores on these for employment
-- do their general state hiring on the basis of these tests rather than "has college degree"Replies: @Stan d Mute, @Opinionator, @guest
“Congress can directly pass legislation to overturn Griggs”
SCOTUS can overturn them right back. They don’t like to strike down federal laws, but they ignore/creatively interpret them all the time.
This is why keeping idiots like Sandra Day O'Connor off the court in the first place is so important.
Asians are not discriminated against. They are vastly overrepresented at elite schools and when legacy and athlete preferences are taken into account there is no discrmination against Asians.
Asians seem to want a structure where only SAT scores count. That already exists, in Asia.
HR gatekeepers are typically NOT higher IQ people. And like most with average to below average (1SD) IQ, they appear to have a strong bias against evidence of their own limitations.
*I mention Mensa only because of the name recognition and my direct experience with it - the organization itself is pathetic. It explicitly disavows HBD and reacts furiously whenever the topic rears it’s ugly head.Replies: @AnotherDad, @DRA
I mentioned Mensa as an “interest affiliation” on a resume in 1981 and got the job. My employer never mentioned it during the interview, but later I found that they were aware of it, although it was buried at the bottom of the last page. I also used it on my resume when I got my next job, and again the employer never mentioned it, but later I found that they had noticed.
I doubt that the HR people ever read to the bottom of those resumes, and the professional staff probably found mention of Mensa a plus. When Mensa was included in a subsequent resume reviewed by a consultant hired to help a potential employer select hires, the interviewer did mention it and I got a negative reaction and no job, so I discontinued using it.
My next and final job change was a result of being recruited by a firm that had hired a coworker, so any resume had little to do with the decision.
And I don’t think that anybody actually checked to see if I was actually a member! Sort of a “can’t ask, don’t notice” situation I guess….
Here’s some interesting data.
I did an analysis of the General Social Survey data. I compared the income of people with 75 IQ and a college degree against 125 IQ people with no college degree. The 75-IQ, college-degree people out
earned the 125 IQ, no-degree people.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM (0-2) and DEGREE (3,4). These are people with IQs of 75, but with college degrees. 78% fall in the highest income bucket.
I also filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(0, 1, 2). These are people with IQs of 125, but with no college degree. 57% fall in the highest income bucket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and all levels of education (degree, non-degree). These are the entire sample of people with 125 IQ. 70% fall in the highest income bracket.
I filtered for people with WORDSUM(10) and DEGREE(3,4). These are people with 125 IQ, but college degree. 79% fall in the highest income bracket.
So even if you have an IQ of 75, you can outearn a 125 IQ person just by finishing college. Even if you compare a 75-IQ college grad to a 125-IQ college grad, they earn roughly the same income.
Therefore, if you’ve got a 75 IQ, the best strategy is to be diligent and finish a college degree. You then get to be middle-class and have higher-IQ people as coworkers.
The GSS Wordsum test is a subcomponent of the Wechsler IQ test. So it's g-loaded.Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Pericles, @AnotherDad, @DRA, @Marty T
The amount of 75 IQ people who somehow stumbled into a college degree has to be absolutely tiny. I can’t imagine that Wordsum test is super accurate.
So it's a rather good test.
However, I think with a little work--where these tests are mainstreamed as "bypass college debt"--this can be ratchetted down to the level of putting GPA on there. We could have a system like the Brits where there are levels and you could having "Interpreting graphical data A-level". (Though I much prefer full scores/more granularity.)
Mensa on a resume is a particular problem because it is so *utterly useless*. It really is "hey, I think i'm God's gift to the world" pomposity. (And also because it's pomposity from people who ... really aren't incredibly smart. It's not exactly a genius level bar.) And the word "Mensa" radiates a bit of a masturbatory vibe--self-enamored folks who sit around doing crosswords or puzzle problem endless stroking their intellects, rather than say actually doing something useful. I really value smarts in people--it really matters, helps avoid lots of mistakes and waste and in seizing opportunities. But if I saw "Mensa" down on a guy's resume, it would definitely give me pause. It would make me think "let's just find a guy with decent 1400+ SATs who actually does stuff, and let this clown go stroke himself." (BTW in all the years I interviewed folks, I can't recall seeing "Mensa" down on a resume. GPA and honors all the time.)Replies: @Stan d Mute
But a GPA 4.0 from Detroit Public Schools is not the same as a 4.0 from Bloomfield Hills. Nor is the Bloomfield 4.0 the same as a Cranbrook 4.0 and none take into account the ass-kissers vs the rebels who both wind up at the same GPA.
Using an IQ proxy like ASVAB, ACT, or SAT will be the same as just posting your WAIS or SB score and encounter the same hostility.
I agree 100% on Mensa, it’s a pathetic joke. I rejoin periodically to see firsthand and confirm that it remains a puzzle club for social misfits then get threatened with expulsion for “Acts Inimical” and quit for another 5-10 years. It’s the sort of thing one might join as a teenager around the same time one tests out of high school a couple of years early hoping naively to find someplace idiot-free. As you mature you realize there is no such place.
However, i don't think discrimination really has much to do with the overall numbers here. Only maybe to the extent that some folks look out at the package of hostile nonsense--of which discrimination is a piece--and say "no thanks".
But mostly it think this is just "interest" and "access". More "college material" rural kids don't have college educated parents, and don't see it as a "must do". And--probably the most important item--it's further to get to the local "community college" fallback, a common option for the marginals--and folks who can't afford a four year coming of age party--which are ubiquitous in urban areas. If you have to pile into the car and drive 50 miles each way to community college, you may just decide "forget it".
~~~
The real ridiculous thing here is 59%, 62%, 67% (rural, urban, suburban) college attendance right out of high school. And that's everyone not just the (even higher) white numbers. C'mon, we don't have anywhere near those numbers who are college material.
What the heck are all these people needing "college" for? What is that they are going to learn, that couldn't have been learned in the 12 years ed-biz had them?
The education establishment needs to get its head out of its ass, stop the equalist pretensions and make high school useful in getting average and below students prepared and ready for that work that most people actually do--which certainly should not take a college degree.Replies: @Luke Lea, @newrouter, @S. Anonyia, @njguy73, @oddsbodkins, @Almost Missouri, @Forbes
In 1960, 10% of high school graduates matriculated at 4-year colleges. (For the most part, community colleges didn’t exist in 1960.) College and university enrollment was for higher education–for those capable of, and interested in, learning for the sake of learning–and for those that would go on to professional school, i.e. law, medicine, et al.
Now, college is a jobs program for professors and administrators, necessitating another four years of day care, paid for with loans taken out by the student inmates, for the privilege of grade inflation and an academic credential.
It’s not as if the result are the many more medical school graduates we need, or the many more lawyers we don’t need…
Millions of bartenders, waiters, and retail workers with (useless) college degrees should be an embarrassment, as should the outstanding student loans with no degree that regularly prevails. Yet, the college-for-all scam persists.
Must keep the funds flowing to important voting constituencies…
I doubt that the HR people ever read to the bottom of those resumes, and the professional staff probably found mention of Mensa a plus. When Mensa was included in a subsequent resume reviewed by a consultant hired to help a potential employer select hires, the interviewer did mention it and I got a negative reaction and no job, so I discontinued using it.
My next and final job change was a result of being recruited by a firm that had hired a coworker, so any resume had little to do with the decision.
And I don't think that anybody actually checked to see if I was actually a member! Sort of a "can't ask, don't notice" situation I guess....Replies: @Stan d Mute
My only success was in scouring the membership list (at the time included home contact info) for business owners/executives (there were very few) and contacted a 10 figure net worth guy who then had his VP HR contact me within a day or two. Got an offer but declined it. Used the same strategy again several times over the years (without using any props like pointless puzzle clubs) with similar or better results. Seems the over-the-top initiative was the key.
According to Rushton/Jensen, blacks are 1.1SD below white avg. If we use IQ100 and 15 points as white average and SD we get around the commonly accepted 85 for blacks. But black SD is smaller than white SD so without looking it up I’d say IQ75 is pretty close to 1SD for blacks in America and above average for Bantus in Africa.
And if, after years at Princeton, Mrs Obama’s thesis is “blackity blackity black yo!” then my point remains unchallenged. I’ll give you credit for reading/quoting it though – I tried once, made it perhaps 2-3 paragraphs, and listened to Al Sharpton on YouTube instead because there was less gibberish.
This.
So many damned lies.
Male (male!!) labor participation is like 70-75%.
It should be 95% like it was in the 50’s. I get why not all women are employed, but men? Virtually all me should be working.
FYI SAT 1360 is the floor for engineering at State U in TX. My son just started at state U, which is how I happened to read their info pages.
Remind me what Asians bring to the party?
They weren't raised to value education, don't know how to effectively make the most of the system, or have a proper strategy when dealing with college.
Many rural whites would probably qualify for decent aid going to university. At worst, it would be very affordable for them to go to school in their flagship state universities. They don't need to force themselves to major in STEM either, a business degree or event liberal arts for a practically priced state university will more than pay for the degree.Replies: @Issac, @Joe Schmoe
That depends on what you call education. Some high achieving (on paper) students from urban and suburban areas can’t actually do much of anything useful. You don’t sound like you know too many rural white males who score 90th %ile on SAT/ACT. It would be damned rare for a rural white male that intelligent not to have any marketable skills straight out of high school. Rural life just is not like that. One of my son’s friends started working as a field guide for hunting trips straight out of high school and makes good money. The key is marketable skills. How many urban high school girls can do anything at all useful straight out of high school just because they scored 90th %ile? Often that is all they have got. Rural males got that 90th %ile in their spare time! Heck, most urban/suburban girls can’t even cook!
So many people are just raised to be nothing more than cannon fodder in the GloboHomoBathhouse project.Replies: @Ivy
I noticed that.
I guess she is concerned that too many “dumb rednecks” aren’t so dumb and she envisions converting them to her SJW religion.
My wife was a principal at a rural county-wide high school. It had an excellent vo-tech program, and students who didn’t want to go to college — or who just weren’t college material — studied welding, auto repair, animal husbandry, and so forth. When she first took the job I looked at the high school annual, and one of the seniors had written as his motto: “Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to weld, feed him for a lifetime.”
There really are people who do real work on farms and elsewhere who do not need a college degree. They often make a pretty good living, far better than if they were to spend a bunch of money and flunk out of college and amass a lot of debt. If high schools would train these people instead of trying to send every student to college our society would be a lot more productive.
Then came NAFTA.
Ross Perot tried to warn us about this back in 92, but nobody listened. Now we're screwed.
Actually, no.
My GSS data analysis showed that 75-IQ college grads out earned 125-IQ non-grads. The 75-IQ grads also earned as much as the 125-IQ grads.
Therefore, if you’ve got a 75 IQ, the best strategy is to get a degree. Then you get to be middle class. However, if you read HBD sites and succumb to fatalism, then you’re screwed.
You're living in the past.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
Grit, perseverance, hard work.
3.7% of American-born 75-IQ whites have a college degree. Sample size is about 700.
WordSum is a “subset of the vocabulary subsection of the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale.” Also, the correlation between IQ and WORDSUM is ~0.70.
So it’s a rather good test.
College is highly over rated. Look at our politicians, educators, journalists, etc.. These are some of the most stupid idiotic people I have ever seen, and they all have college diplomas. I am 46 years old with a high school diploma. I am a self taught auto mechanic. I am the type of “blue collar” man that college graduates look down upon because my hands are dirty. However, the joke is on them. I have an IQ close to 140. I also earn a six figure income annually by rebuilding automobile transmissions. If I were dishonest, I could double salary, by robbing these so called intellectuals blind. They would not even know it. I live in the same community they do, and my children go to the same schools. Nothing makes me happier then seeing the looks on their faces when I answer the question of what I do for a living. It blows their narrow minds. Young men, learn a trade, do it well and profit from their arrogance and ignorance.
There really are people who do real work on farms and elsewhere who do not need a college degree. They often make a pretty good living, far better than if they were to spend a bunch of money and flunk out of college and amass a lot of debt. If high schools would train these people instead of trying to send every student to college our society would be a lot more productive.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @MarkinLA, @Ivy
Yes. Lots of rural Red State whites are pretty smart and have good mechanical aptitude. They excel in manufacturing and industrial environments. Back when America was a sane country (which was as recently as the 70s and 80s), America used to work hard to maintain a large manufacturing presence throughout the country. Those manufacturing plants sustained lots of proud working class communities in places like Portsmouth, Ohio.
Then came NAFTA.
Ross Perot tried to warn us about this back in 92, but nobody listened. Now we’re screwed.
Given that these are the same people who have sub-replacement TFR and advocate suicidal politics, one could be forgiven thinking that they are neither shrewd nor successful. Financial boons in one or two generations are meaningless if your genetic lineage ends in a subsequent generation. Rural financial under-performers are quite likely (and unintentionally) adopting a superior long-term strategy to optimize for both survival and relative socioeconomic status. Unless a substantial change of heart occurs in the ruling class of America, the affluent cities and suburbs will be ground-zero for some pretty shocking quality of life issues.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
The rural areas are full of opioids and heroin these days. Rural people are raising their kids in areas of hopelessness. If they moved to the major metros (especially in the Blue States), it’d be more expensive but their kids would be healthier and happier.
What’s the point of lots of kids if you have to watch them suffer?
I don't know why it needs to be said--cause it's bloody obvious--but an IQ score is not your "intelligence" but an attempted measurement of your intelligence. An IQ score is not like say measuring your height--which also has noise, but usually is ... your height. An IQ score is more akin to doing a decathalon and saying that's "your athleticism". Depends on the events, the order, your motivation, the day you are having and what particular aspects of "athleticism" are important. And IQ tests are even more removed from the underlying reality than that.And this Wordsum test is ridiculously noisy. 11 buckets. On one particular mental skill--which itself involves the level of previous exposure (how much reading). It's akin to having folks do a high jump and assigning their AQ (athletic quotient) as a result. Hey Johnny didn't even clear 4'8"--he's a 75 AQ!--> Selection
The other obvious factor working is selection. Your "75 IQ" and "graduated college" bucket was--if I remember correctly--all of 2% of the "75 IQ" bucket. In other words it was precisely the freaks of the 75 IQ bucket. Most, i'm guessing, were in the 75 bucket because of noise--not vocab savy, having a bad day, didn't feel like answering the questions--and are actually smarter. But even the ones for whom the score is an accurate, those who soldiered on to a college degree are obviously those who are the highest functioning 75s--able to say the expected things, parrot back what's expected, make a favorable impression on people and have the discipline and drive to get through college even though they are pretty dim. The reality that noise and selection are doing the heavy lifting here, was shown by the statistic you had a month back but aren't repeating here. This tiny tiny lowest Wordsum scores but went to college bucket actually had a higher percentage in the high income bucket, than the (much larger N)next group up in IQ (WORDSUM(3-4), DEGREE(3,4)), which was down in the 50s somewhere. How the heck does that happen? Well the dummy75+college grads are a tiny, tiny, very heavily selected group for drive and diligence. Get up to a larger N and just general "mediocre IQ" and there are a lot more folks blundering on through to a college degree--still pretty selected, but not nearly so as the nominally dumber folks who are the real go-getters of the IQ 75 bucket.Likewise, on the other end, when you talk about WORDSUM(10) people who didn't get through college ... it's because they are either
-- not really high IQ people but just nailed the vocab on this test that day (noise)
-- eclectic beat-on-their-own-drummer free thinkers (also probably not driven to nail down income)
or (biggest bucket)
-- they are really pathetic screw-ups who couldn't organize and discipline themselves enough to get through college which they are obviously capable of. IQ matters, but so does conscientiousness, discipline, ambition.
Again ... selection.So to your conclusion:Not quite. Much more accurate:
"If you scored a 75 IQ on some 10 question Wordsum test, but are actually smart enough to do college anyway and have the exceptional discipline and drive to power on through, then sure go get a college degree and you'll have the entry credential to do a lot of white collar work and earn a decent middle class salary. But if you're really a typical 75 IQ person who struggles vainly with high school work and likely won't finish college, then find something else to do that seems interesting to you and squares up with your strengths."Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
The sample size of American-born 75-IQ whites was around 700. 3.7% had a college degree. The overall sample size is pretty good. The sample of college grads was pretty small (about 25), but I think it’s a reliable result.
Here’s why. For American-born 88-IQ whites, the sample size was over 3,000. 4.6% had a college degree. So the sample of college grads (about 140 respondents). There’s less noise and distortion. 86% earn $25,000 (or more) per year. That’s consistent with the earlier 75-IQ income data.
For American-born 125 IQ whites with a degree, 83% earn $25,000 (or more) per year. For American-born 125 IQ whites (both degree and non-degree), 77% earn that much. For American-born 125 IQ whites with no degree, 65% earn that much.
It’s not just noise and selection. The results are true even if you expand the sample size.
Wordsum is a subcomponent of the fairly respected Wechsler IQ test.
Okay, but these people are holding their own against 125-IQ college grads. They earn roughly similar income, which is pretty good.
I got an N=147 for American-born white college grads. The trend remains the sample. 147 isn’t a huge size, but it’s not a bad sample size.
When I looked at 95-IQ white, American-born grads, 85% earned $25,000 or more per year. The sample size is 430.
Even if you compare WORDSUM(10), 125-IQ college grads to WORDSUM(0-2), 75-IQ, college grads, income is similar. Which means that a low-IQ college grad can earn the sample as a very bright college grad.
It’s probably pretty hard for the 75-IQ kid to get a degree, but he should try. It’ll maximize his odds for high income and employment.
My wife teaches at an elite college. We've seen lots of rich kids come here and go on to get great jobs. We've also seen a few bright children of the staff who are allowed to get a free college education here. They go on to get jobs they could have had straight out of high school.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
For individuals from the lowest income quintile of parental family income, nearly 45% of non-degree individuals remained in the lowest quintile. For those with a degree, about 15% stayed in the lowest quintile.
For those with a degree, 40% were in the highest 2 quintiles. For those with no degree, only 15% were in the highest 2 quintiles.
http://www.hamiltonproject.org/charts/income_quintile_of_adults_born_into_lowest-quintile_families_by_colleg
I won't disagree that you can get a better paying job with a two or four year degree, but I would not recommend that my son get a master's degree unless it was something he really wanted and not for profit. I only have a four year degree myself and its not really stopped me from getting places.
Even if you wanted to play the credentialism game, the university bubble is overheated. Get vendor credentials or licenses instead.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
The average college tuition for a public state university is about 10K/yr. So 4 * 10K/yr = 40K.
Over a 40 year career (age 22-62), that’s annualized at about 1K/yr.
The average college pays off college loans for about 10 years, at about $3400 (on average) per year.
So, even with the loans factored in, college is a very good deal from the perspective of wealth maximization.
My GSS data analysis showed that 75-IQ college grads out earned 125-IQ non-grads. The 75-IQ grads also earned as much as the 125-IQ grads.
Therefore, if you've got a 75 IQ, the best strategy is to get a degree. Then you get to be middle class. However, if you read HBD sites and succumb to fatalism, then you're screwed.Replies: @Desiderius
Nothing fatal about it. Life’s pretty good around here, especially for those who’ve eluded the brain drain snare.
You’re living in the past.
Yes, this is true, and sad. And most urban/suburban boys can’t do any simple traditional male task.
So many people are just raised to be nothing more than cannon fodder in the GloboHomoBathhouse project.
My kids learned how to change a flat tire and to carry supplies in their car trunks so that they could survive some small inconveniences that would disrupt the less-prepared. Contrast that with the pathetic yuppie waving around a cell phone frantically hoping for a signal to call AAA to change his tire. Meanwhile, his classmate wonders why she didn't notice his shortcomings, as night begins to fall, out on a country road. That happened to someone I knew. They never knew of darkness on the edge of town, or of back streets, or Robert Frost if you prefer.
Anything ending in “Studies”.
Well, the truth is New Hempshire and Iowa have a lot more young people that go to college. New Hempshire is the 4th highest and Iowa the 11th highest, but the big companies go to Georgia or Texas where the kids population only 35th or 30th in the nation. The big companies don’t like the smaller rural states which have much higher college graduation rates among those under 30 than the large states. In fact, California, Texas and Georgia have to import college graduates from Iowa or New Hempshire to worked in tech fields since all three states with high minority populations have below average college graduation rates.
The truth is Iowa has a lot higher percentage of the population that finishes college than Texas or California. The Atlantic tends to be very pro-urban, but college graduation rates are the lowest in lots of urban areas because of high minority populations. Georgia, Texas and California and New York import tech workers from smaller rural states like Iowa.
SCOTUS can overturn them right back. They don't like to strike down federal laws, but they ignore/creatively interpret them all the time.Replies: @MarkinLA
It takes a lot of effort to overturn a Supreme Court’s prior ruling. They are generally loath to do it and you really have to have a concerted effort and all your ducks lined up in multiple lower court decisions.
This is why keeping idiots like Sandra Day O’Connor off the court in the first place is so important.
There really are people who do real work on farms and elsewhere who do not need a college degree. They often make a pretty good living, far better than if they were to spend a bunch of money and flunk out of college and amass a lot of debt. If high schools would train these people instead of trying to send every student to college our society would be a lot more productive.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @MarkinLA, @Ivy
Out in the countryside a lot of the industrial level work is small jobs that aren’t economically worth automating so things like welding are viable professions. The problem in urban environments is that getting a welding certification is becoming less and less useful due to robotics. They have robotic pipe welders that can put any human welder to shame. With computer vision coupled with a large database on welding parameters, welders in cities may be a thing of the past – even in large skyscrapers.
There really are people who do real work on farms and elsewhere who do not need a college degree. They often make a pretty good living, far better than if they were to spend a bunch of money and flunk out of college and amass a lot of debt. If high schools would train these people instead of trying to send every student to college our society would be a lot more productive.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @MarkinLA, @Ivy
The non-college population represents a fifth column threat to SJWs. The more aware segment of rural and small town population may have a relative lack of debt which, when combined with higher gun ownership, provide a material societal (Saxon-like?) counterweight to urban rat race and media junkie victim types.
Some flyover people may not take on much “invest in yourself” student loans as they just might have enough common sense to look around at who can get real skilled jobs instead of phony paper or vapor jobs. They have more latitude to do what they want, say after a more normal 40 hours instead of 60 under some SJW harridan boss. There are enough cautionary tales of opioid deaths and lying companies moving offshore to push more toward independence, voting for change and greater sense of control over one’s destiny.
Why not choose to live a life where there is time for family and community, instead of being stuck in a crapified rat race fueled by over-priced caffeinated beverages and bespoke muffins! More independent people preserve their human dignity options, while the dependent ones are coerced to act by their creditors. Contrast such relative latitude with the plight of those hapless victims of Corinthian, Everest, ITT, DeVry and similar squeaking by with figurative guns to their heads.
The growing student debt problem will cause more social disruption soon, continuing with the recent increasing delinquencies. At some point, more of those indebted students will stop paying out of disgust at a rigged system, or will be unable to pay while still trying to find food and shelter. That is, if they aren’t victimized further by Equifax and similar data breaches that turn their lives inside out. Will they get relief from the debts they were strongly encouraged to incur while studying for a non-existent job at matchbook U? More for-profit “colleges” will fail, leaving behind a legacy of worthless diplomas and embittered students.
Then there's the opioid/heroin problem in the rural areas. The idea that rural areas are community/family oriented is an outdated image from the Andy Griffith era. There's no dignity in, let's say, Portsmouth, Ohio.
Life isn't like this anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RsX2lFbI1o
Rural people eat tons of crap and garbage from convenience stores and McDonald's. The obesity rate is, not surprisingly, higher there.
No offense, but a lot you promote way too much bad advice. In this thread, we've seen lots of people argue that it's a good idea to skip college and go live in a rural area.Replies: @Ivy
So many people are just raised to be nothing more than cannon fodder in the GloboHomoBathhouse project.Replies: @Ivy
Kids need to learn life skills. Cooking is basic, since eating is a frequent occurrence. Cleaning, maintenance and similar allow more order in life and promote better habits.
My kids learned how to change a flat tire and to carry supplies in their car trunks so that they could survive some small inconveniences that would disrupt the less-prepared. Contrast that with the pathetic yuppie waving around a cell phone frantically hoping for a signal to call AAA to change his tire. Meanwhile, his classmate wonders why she didn’t notice his shortcomings, as night begins to fall, out on a country road. That happened to someone I knew. They never knew of darkness on the edge of town, or of back streets, or Robert Frost if you prefer.
You're living in the past.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
Life is good if you have a college degree.
For those with a degree, 40% were in the highest 2 quintiles. For those with no degree, only 15% were in the highest 2 quintiles.
http://www.hamiltonproject.org/charts/income_quintile_of_adults_born_into_lowest-quintile_families_by_collegReplies: @Desiderius
The Hamilton Project? Seriously?
I’m sure Jerry Brown and Bill Clinton stay up nights trying to figure out how best to help rural and suburban young people, especially non-NAMS.
If you want to keep conning another generation into the college meat grinder, probably the lowest cost thing you could work on is getting the SJWs out of the Alumni Magazine business. It’s pretty pathetic.
Whatever, dude. You con several generations of the most productive kids into getting an often worthless college degrees, then when they outearn their peers*, which they would have done regardless, you crow about how valuable that degree was.
You put Harold Hill to shame.
* – many were left with no choice given the burden of college debt, either direct or indirect through taxes.
College grads have much higher incomes and a much higher employment rate. The average college debt ($3,400/yr) is trivial in comparison to the income/employment gain.
You guys are living in a fantasy world in which high-paid non-college work is plentiful and the "real jobs" go to blue-collar, salt of the earth whites from flyover country. The statistics show that you're wrong on this.
A lot of you criticize liberals for engaging in too much wishful thinking and ignoring data on IQ, black crime, immigration-related issues, etc. It seems like you guys aren't that much different with regards to ignoring data you don't like and believing whatever makes you happy.
Liberal talk about "worthless IQ studies."
The fact-driven folks here talk about "worthless degrees."
At the end of the day, lots of people (including posters here) don't like data and will just believe whatever they feel like.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
All the stats show the “real” jobs are going to college-grads these days. College grads have much higher incomes and a much lower unemployment rate. Non-grads are dealing with falling incomes and widespread joblessness. Even with student debt (which averages about $3,400/yr post-graduation), college grads earn a lot more.
Then there’s the opioid/heroin problem in the rural areas. The idea that rural areas are community/family oriented is an outdated image from the Andy Griffith era. There’s no dignity in, let’s say, Portsmouth, Ohio.
Life isn’t like this anymore.
Rural people eat tons of crap and garbage from convenience stores and McDonald’s. The obesity rate is, not surprisingly, higher there.
No offense, but a lot you promote way too much bad advice. In this thread, we’ve seen lots of people argue that it’s a good idea to skip college and go live in a rural area.
Refer back to the earlier post.
College grads have much higher incomes and a much higher employment rate. The average college debt ($3,400/yr) is trivial in comparison to the income/employment gain.
You guys are living in a fantasy world in which high-paid non-college work is plentiful and the “real jobs” go to blue-collar, salt of the earth whites from flyover country. The statistics show that you’re wrong on this.
A lot of you criticize liberals for engaging in too much wishful thinking and ignoring data on IQ, black crime, immigration-related issues, etc. It seems like you guys aren’t that much different with regards to ignoring data you don’t like and believing whatever makes you happy.
Liberal talk about “worthless IQ studies.”
The fact-driven folks here talk about “worthless degrees.”
At the end of the day, lots of people (including posters here) don’t like data and will just believe whatever they feel like.
https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-atlantic-the-rural-higher-education-crisis/#comment-2023464Replies: @MarkinLA
College grads have much higher incomes and a much higher employment rate. The average college debt ($3,400/yr) is trivial in comparison to the income/employment gain.
You guys are living in a fantasy world in which high-paid non-college work is plentiful and the "real jobs" go to blue-collar, salt of the earth whites from flyover country. The statistics show that you're wrong on this.
A lot of you criticize liberals for engaging in too much wishful thinking and ignoring data on IQ, black crime, immigration-related issues, etc. It seems like you guys aren't that much different with regards to ignoring data you don't like and believing whatever makes you happy.
Liberal talk about "worthless IQ studies."
The fact-driven folks here talk about "worthless degrees."
At the end of the day, lots of people (including posters here) don't like data and will just believe whatever they feel like.Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
This post has the data on employment and income by education attainment.
https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-atlantic-the-rural-higher-education-crisis/#comment-2023464
https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-atlantic-the-rural-higher-education-crisis/#comment-2023464Replies: @MarkinLA
The problem with that simple graph is that it isn’t broken down by age group or degree type.
I never had to deal with the H-1B problem. I was a pretty competent programmer who when doing jobs beneath my skill level just happened to land at a company paying more than everybody else in the area. Given that we had to comply with FDA requirements, my mostly useless job could not be eliminated and required too much English to be H-1Bd away.
That being said, I retired early and well above that average salary of yours, but the kids now are having their salaries held down by H-1Bs. That doesn’t even begin to deal with the many graduates that have degrees in some field but don’t have the family connections to land somewhere it can be of use. I wonder what that graph would look like if it compared an electrician with someone with a degree in social work?
So I'd imagine the graph would look even better for those who chose a college degree.
Lots of people here are saying that many college grads can't get good jobs and end up in debt. This is true, but it ignores that non-grads have a much more difficult time getting a good job and often end up in menial labor with no path upward (assuming they can even find employment).
Also, the college debt isn't that bad. The average debt is about $3,400 per year for 10 years. Considering the opportunities that open up from a degree, $3,400/yr is worth it. Even if you end up a barista, at least you're more likely to become a manager.
Wage growth is being kept down by H-1bs, but the average wage (inflation-adjusted) hasn't changed significantly. If not for H-1bs, the average wage would've increased substantially.
A study found that even low-income kids see a substantial income rise after pursuing a degree.
Some blue collar workers (like electricians) compare favorably to college grads, but their median wage is still mediocre. About $53K/yr.
There's a rebellion brewing between the nurses and social workers at my girlfriend's hospital. Most of the social workers are middle-/upper-middle women who've gotten their Masters in social work. The nurses, on the other hand, are almost exclusively Bachelors degree holders from a less affluent background. The social workers, using just the logic that you'd expect from a social worker, are beginning to whine about the wage disparity between them and the nursing staff, which shows a new nurse getting about twice what a new social worker gets, and which worsens for the social worker over time; the girlfriend makes more than 3X what a social worker makes. The time-in-service comparison doesn't work, as there are few social workers working at the hospital beyond 5-7 years. The girlfriend's current social worker has her Masters, but has also taken the LICSW exam SEVEN times without passing!
That anyone would pay a social worker more than a McDonald's shift manager is ludicrous!
Then there's the opioid/heroin problem in the rural areas. The idea that rural areas are community/family oriented is an outdated image from the Andy Griffith era. There's no dignity in, let's say, Portsmouth, Ohio.
Life isn't like this anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RsX2lFbI1o
Rural people eat tons of crap and garbage from convenience stores and McDonald's. The obesity rate is, not surprisingly, higher there.
No offense, but a lot you promote way too much bad advice. In this thread, we've seen lots of people argue that it's a good idea to skip college and go live in a rural area.Replies: @Ivy
Understand the stats, qualified my views, addressed the risks to target the subsets that can make a go of it and live lives more of their choosing.
For younger people, the income and employment stats are even more skewed. Back a few decades ago, lots of bright non-degree individuals rose into management or got other types of lucrative jobs. These days, if you don’t have a degree, lots of career paths are closed to you.
So I’d imagine the graph would look even better for those who chose a college degree.
Lots of people here are saying that many college grads can’t get good jobs and end up in debt. This is true, but it ignores that non-grads have a much more difficult time getting a good job and often end up in menial labor with no path upward (assuming they can even find employment).
Also, the college debt isn’t that bad. The average debt is about $3,400 per year for 10 years. Considering the opportunities that open up from a degree, $3,400/yr is worth it. Even if you end up a barista, at least you’re more likely to become a manager.
Wage growth is being kept down by H-1bs, but the average wage (inflation-adjusted) hasn’t changed significantly. If not for H-1bs, the average wage would’ve increased substantially.
A study found that even low-income kids see a substantial income rise after pursuing a degree.
Some blue collar workers (like electricians) compare favorably to college grads, but their median wage is still mediocre. About $53K/yr.
I guess she is concerned that too many "dumb rednecks" aren't so dumb and she envisions converting them to her SJW religion.Replies: @Marty T
The powers that be noticed non-college whites sweeping the Midwest red for Trump and they want to decrease their numbers. Right?
Funny you should mention social workers.
There’s a rebellion brewing between the nurses and social workers at my girlfriend’s hospital. Most of the social workers are middle-/upper-middle women who’ve gotten their Masters in social work. The nurses, on the other hand, are almost exclusively Bachelors degree holders from a less affluent background. The social workers, using just the logic that you’d expect from a social worker, are beginning to whine about the wage disparity between them and the nursing staff, which shows a new nurse getting about twice what a new social worker gets, and which worsens for the social worker over time; the girlfriend makes more than 3X what a social worker makes. The time-in-service comparison doesn’t work, as there are few social workers working at the hospital beyond 5-7 years. The girlfriend’s current social worker has her Masters, but has also taken the LICSW exam SEVEN times without passing!
That anyone would pay a social worker more than a McDonald’s shift manager is ludicrous!