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Time cover for July 15, 1996. Article here.

 
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  1. It worked out extremely well for some…

    • Replies: @Ulysses
    @JerryC

    Yes it did. I generally abide by the rule that malice should not be assumed where ignorance will suffice, but when billions of dollars are being made for a few of the dispossession of millions, I start to think maybe something intentional is going on

    , @Anonymous
    @JerryC


    It worked out extremely well for some…
     
    Yeah, some Russians like: Eugene Shvidler, Alexander Knaster, Mikhail Fridman, Boris Berezovsky, Vladimir Gusinsky, Yuri Milner, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, et al. Oh yes, yes, I know. It is do to either coincidence or Ashkenazi IQ. Yeah, sure, I believe that.
  2. There’s an odd meme here recently (certainly not in the past) that between the US and any other country, that Americans should be even-handed.

    I always thought that one iSteve idea was that Americans should put Americans first and any other country second. But that seems to be gone now, and Americans are now supposed to be computerized referees (eg if we did it to them, they can do it to us-its really only fair).

    Here’s a suggestion: We grabbed land from Mexico so its only fair that Mexicans can move to the grabbed lands. Sounds fair. That’s certainly the way many impartial judges would say.

    I’m not necessarily criticizing the change, just ‘noticing’.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @anony-mouse

    You're question-begging. The "interference" consists of, what, the Russian government sponsoring Russia Today. Online trolls (where's my check?). If there is evidence of actual Russian sabotage as opposed to some anonymous bureaucrat tossing out a comment to a Washington Post reporter, then we better see it. Otherwise, it is dishonest and reckless to throw out accusations of the President-elect as a Russian stooge or that the election results are illegitimate. And along those lines, Georgia's Secretary of State, Bryan Kemp, has asked the U.S. Department of Homeland Security why a computer with a DHS address was trying to access the State's voter database.

    It's also silly and pointless to bridle over what amounts to PR by the Russian government, given what was apparently overt advice and support to the redoubtable but conveniently naive Boris Yeltsin, which enabled certain connected people to become very, very rich and ordinary Russians reduced to appalling poverty. It's like accusing Russia of spying, yes, spying on the US.

  3. Time magazine is always ten years behind everything, except when it is flat-out wrong from the get-go.

  4. I’m sure there’s a Russian equivalent of “payback’s a bitch”, though I’d hardly think helping elect a nationalist here makes up for us carving up their economy. Shit, we ought to screw the Russians over more often!

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    @Dennis Dale


    I’m sure there’s a Russian equivalent of “payback’s a bitch”
     
    In Soviet Drussia, bitch pays you back
  5. @JerryC
    It worked out extremely well for some...

    Replies: @Ulysses, @Anonymous

    Yes it did. I generally abide by the rule that malice should not be assumed where ignorance will suffice, but when billions of dollars are being made for a few of the dispossession of millions, I start to think maybe something intentional is going on

  6. @JerryC
    It worked out extremely well for some...

    Replies: @Ulysses, @Anonymous

    It worked out extremely well for some…

    Yeah, some Russians like: Eugene Shvidler, Alexander Knaster, Mikhail Fridman, Boris Berezovsky, Vladimir Gusinsky, Yuri Milner, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, et al. Oh yes, yes, I know. It is do to either coincidence or Ashkenazi IQ. Yeah, sure, I believe that.

  7. Yanks?

    Or

    One of the most prophetic songs:

    • Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon
    @Anon

    Jackson Browne's last hurrah was Lawyers in Love. He had a few minor feats after like his "I'm Alive" (breakup from Daryl) album years later, but his stint as 'philosopher for the common man' had pretty much run its course by the mid-80s. His take on status seeking & petty materialism in the the early 80s was on target, but it's ironic that the yupppies ("Lawyers") he was critiquing were often his old peers who had ditched their one world idealism cause it was irreconcilable with the Soviet expansionism (esp Afghanistan in 1980), Iranian extremism or Pol Pot. He never really conceded that maybe the Republicans had a point. A 2nd irony that his McGovernite peers from the early 70s were many of the same who connived in the Clinton Admin, its looting of Russia, and in building up the transnational plutocracy. The nostalgic left (save maybe Susan Sarandon) still can't be intellectually honest. Blind to the end I guess.

  8. OT: Was just watching “Snowden” and it’s happened yet again. The black STEM genius appears 1 hour and 20 minutes in.

  9. One of the more depressing things about the current “Trump is a Russian Stooge” craze, and the other lunacies shrieking in the media is their opportunity cost, pushing out all observation of anything true and interesting about our nearly revolutionary times.

    What might be the actual economic costs and gains of pulling back from current trade arrangements, and reducing free movement of jobs from our country? Who wins and who loses? Is there any way this can be made to work well for current American workers?

    What kind of management style might we expect from someone like Trump, given his unique background as someone who became President without ever being in government in any capacity, but who was successful in his own private business? What might be the upside and downside to such a background?

    What does it mean to be looking out strictly for American interests in the current world, from a diplomatic and military point of view? What should be the limits to our obligations to other countries, and to people in other countries?

    You see, we can’t have those discussions in the current media environment. In that setting, the only permitted “analyses” are those that show we are heading off to doom, that Trump is the first phase of Hitler, that the Russians are Coming, and that men in white hoods rampage through our lands in bloodthirsty search of the Dark Other.

    • Replies: @eD
    @candid_observer

    Shrewd comment (Candid Observer #11).

    , @Forbes
    @candid_observer


    You see, we can’t have those discussions in the current media environment.
     
    We don't have those discussions in any media environment. With Obama, it was "he's Mr. Wonderful" 24/7.

    Trade-offs, costs vs benefits, policy consequences whether intended or otherwise were all avoided for the Messiah, the bringer of peace--the smartest guy in the room. That Obama lacked any rudimentary experience was the bug that was a feature. He ran a successful campaign--proof of the necessary qualifications that he would be successful as president. It was foreordained. All that was necessary was to "get with the program."
  10. Apparently this is not a parody account:

    https://twitter.com/TSHalalbe/status/808026123028299776

    • Replies: @Blosky
    @Cagey Beast

    Looks like he's involved too... A shame...

    , @SFG
    @Cagey Beast

    No, he's for real. He's into the weird AI stuff Scott Alexander is more loosely into, and they are in a lot of the same online communities (rationalist, libertarian, etc.)

    From what little I can tell the guy is a bona fide computer genius with the usual lack of understanding of human beings.

    Replies: @(((Owen))), @anonymous coward

    , @Polymath
    @Cagey Beast

    Yudkowsky is actually quite a serious and accomplished person with a great deal of expertise in disingenuous trolling. The Harry Potter fanfic is tremendously entertaining and thought-provoking for a certain type of mind, and the Rationalist Sequences on the Less Wrong website ought to be a fundamental resource for everybody, but his main work is research in AI safety and encouragement of research in AI safety and he one of a handful of central figures there.

    His political and social ideas and inclinations aren't particularly sensible, and his estimate of the consequences of a Trump Presidency was inordinately pessimistic, but not deludedly so, in which respect he did better than most Bay Area techie types.

  11. Worked out like reconstruction in the Old South. Huzzahhhhh!!!!

  12. @Cagey Beast
    Apparently this is not a parody account:

    https://twitter.com/NinaByzantina/status/808121958235860992

    https://twitter.com/TSHalalbe/status/808026123028299776

    Replies: @Blosky, @SFG, @Polymath

    Looks like he’s involved too… A shame…

  13. Original Time link here. Would Russia be better off if the Zyuganov the Communist had won? We shall never know.

    Science “won the day again,” says Dresner. “We showed we’d been right from the start.” From then on, the American team’s influence grew–and anticommunism became the central and repeated focus of the campaign and the candidate.

    Having helped establish the campaign’s major theme, the Americans then set out to modify it. The Americans used their focus-group coordinator, Alexei Levinson, to determine what exactly Russians most feared about the Communists. Long lines, scarce food and renationalization of property were frequently cited, but mostly people worried about civil war. “That allowed us to move beyond simple Red bashing,” says Shumate. “That’s why Yeltsin and his surrogates and our advertising all highlighted the possibility of unrest if Yeltsin lost. Many people felt some nostalgia for what the communists had done for Russia and no one liked the President–but they liked the possibility of riots and class warfare even less.” “‘Stick with Yeltsin and at least you’ll have calm’–that was the line we wanted to convey,” says Dresner. “So the drumbeat about unrest kept pounding right till the end of the run-off round, when the final TV spots were all about the Soviets’ repressive rule.”

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Johann Ricke

    The Time story was #FakeNews, because it implied that Yeltsin actually won the popular vote. He only won the vote counting, but the American advisors were crucial to make it close enough that a little bit of tampering with the results was enough.

    , @reiner Tor
    @Johann Ricke


    The Americans used their focus-group coordinator, Alexei Levinson, to determine what exactly Russians most feared about the Communists. Long lines, scarce food and renationalization of property were frequently cited, but mostly people worried about civil war.
     
    In other words, the advice they gave to Yeltsin was to threaten the population with civil war in case they failed to re-elect him. Since he used tanks to crush the legislature in an unconstitutional coup just less than three years earlier, his threat was credible. Yet he still failed to win the majority of the vote, which just shows how hated he was in Russia at the time.
  14. @anony-mouse
    There's an odd meme here recently (certainly not in the past) that between the US and any other country, that Americans should be even-handed.

    I always thought that one iSteve idea was that Americans should put Americans first and any other country second. But that seems to be gone now, and Americans are now supposed to be computerized referees (eg if we did it to them, they can do it to us-its really only fair).

    Here's a suggestion: We grabbed land from Mexico so its only fair that Mexicans can move to the grabbed lands. Sounds fair. That's certainly the way many impartial judges would say.

    I'm not necessarily criticizing the change, just 'noticing'.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    You’re question-begging. The “interference” consists of, what, the Russian government sponsoring Russia Today. Online trolls (where’s my check?). If there is evidence of actual Russian sabotage as opposed to some anonymous bureaucrat tossing out a comment to a Washington Post reporter, then we better see it. Otherwise, it is dishonest and reckless to throw out accusations of the President-elect as a Russian stooge or that the election results are illegitimate. And along those lines, Georgia’s Secretary of State, Bryan Kemp, has asked the U.S. Department of Homeland Security why a computer with a DHS address was trying to access the State’s voter database.

    It’s also silly and pointless to bridle over what amounts to PR by the Russian government, given what was apparently overt advice and support to the redoubtable but conveniently naive Boris Yeltsin, which enabled certain connected people to become very, very rich and ordinary Russians reduced to appalling poverty. It’s like accusing Russia of spying, yes, spying on the US.

  15. Good work, whoever uncovered this. From this blog to thousands of Twitter and Facebook feeds.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    @Daniel H

    "From this blog to thousands of Twitter and Facebook feeds."

    Originally the other way round. I read (IIRC on a now-vanished Ricky Vaughn twitter account) a tweet (or a retweet, who knows?) showing that 1996 Time cover alongside the cover of October 10, 2016.

    http://time.com/magazine/us/4512760/october-10th-2016-vol-188-no-14-u-s/

    "Russia wants to undermine faith in the US election. Don't fall for it"

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  16. @Cagey Beast
    Apparently this is not a parody account:

    https://twitter.com/NinaByzantina/status/808121958235860992

    https://twitter.com/TSHalalbe/status/808026123028299776

    Replies: @Blosky, @SFG, @Polymath

    No, he’s for real. He’s into the weird AI stuff Scott Alexander is more loosely into, and they are in a lot of the same online communities (rationalist, libertarian, etc.)

    From what little I can tell the guy is a bona fide computer genius with the usual lack of understanding of human beings.

    • Replies: @(((Owen)))
    @SFG

    Eliezer Yudkowsky also wrote the best and second most widely read Harry Potter fan fiction in the world. The principal opus is "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality." It's like a well plotted rational blend of Ender's Game and Harry Potter.

    , @anonymous coward
    @SFG


    guy is a bona fide computer genius
     
    He is certainly not, he cannot even program.

    His claim to 15 minutes of fame is writing the most popular Harry Potter fanfiction novel. (Seriously.)

    Replies: @(((Owen)))

  17. Well, at least the US learned from the Russian example.

    Good thing it didn’t meddle in Iraq, Libya, Ukraine, and other places.

  18. It is chilling to reflect how much damage was done in the period 1995-97 by neoliberals, neocons. From the strangling by Buckley et al of paleoconservatism (O’Sullivan, Buchanan, Brimelow,…), the ascent of the vile Tony Blair & his nation breaking immigration scheme, the looting of Russia, the acceleration of mass immigration into Scandinavia, the entrenchment of speech codes across the EU & Anglosphere, and the war on Christians in the remnants of Yugoslavia. Oh, what might have been if the Alt Right / Alt Light had the populist media access then as today.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    @CrunchybutRealistCon

    That was also a period of accelerating illegal immigration (all time record levels?) into the United States.

    What is more, around then, or a little after, Palestine was hit with a massive increase in jewish immigration into and colonization of the West Bank--leading eventually 9/11.

    Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon, @Gabriel M

    , @eD
    @CrunchybutRealistCon

    I was reasonably well informed about political and economic developments in the 1990s and was quite frankly depressed by them. I thought that things that were celebrated in the media would turn out to be disasters down the road, which turned out to be the case in every instance. But alot of the worst stuff wasn't covered them and we've only been finding out about in driblets then.

    , @Olorin
    @CrunchybutRealistCon

    In the '90s there were many efforts to establish populist media and access to them, using the new technologies of the Internet.

    They were slated for co-optation and/or destruction by the elites.

    This is as good an overall/first-view treatment of it as I've seen:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/15/the-progressive-movement-is-a-pr-front-for-rich-democrats/

    Hopefully our media are more dispersed and resistant to co-optation today...but those who cannot reasonably co-opt them certainly will try to shut them down, as we are witnessing at present.

  19. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    OT: Great headline here:

    Bolton suggests DNC hack was Obama administration ‘false flag’

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/bolton-suggests-dnc-hack-was-obama-administration-false-flag/article/2609395

    Any reference to a false flag in the media is a good thing even if they put it in scare quotes. One day conservatives will have to admit that these events are widespread and not “conspiracy theories”…

    Every lesbian in the country understands that false flag hoaxes are an excellent tactic for advancing an agenda. But Bill O’Reilly and other respectable media voices are not so sure!!!

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Anonymous


    Any reference to a false flag in the media is a good thing even if they put it in scare quotes.
     
    Not necessarily. Politico mis-defined the term in their article on Bolton.

    Generally, I think false flag accusations are a little crazy. However, with regard to this one, I will say that back during the campaign, when Obama announced that they had put together a team of cyber security experts to prevent someone altering the election results, I thought it quite odd. Certainly, that kind of security is an ongoing concern, not something they just decided to address. Why announce it unless you are trying to set people up for a confirmation bias manipulation?
  20. I overheard at a friends house the odious CNN (I don’t have cable). The main line of attack is that Trump is not a legitimate President because the Russians hacked Hillary and her nasty cabal.

    If Hillary hadn’t wanted to be hacked, maybe she shouldn’t have been a crook, incompetent, and pissing of the Russians.

    After all, I’m old enough to remember four years ago when the Media and Obama were ridiculing Romney’s assertions that the Russians were the US’s number one geopolitical enemy.

    For those of the paranoid bent, this could be trial balloons to get some judge somewhere to rule that yes, Russia hacked Hillary so Trump cannot be President, and then Obama “against his will” suspends the results of all the elections, “because national security, or something.” Then goes back to another four years of golf and moral lectures to his inferiors. And selling out America because racism. And White people. Or something.

    I would not put it past someone whose major life experiences were as a Muslim in Indonesia, and the exotic in the Ivy League and Chicago Politics. That’s of course his plan. I don’t think it will go that smoothly if they push it.

    • Replies: @eD
    @Whiskey

    I generally disagree with Whiskey, but something does seem to be in the works, but what is probably happening is setting Trump up for impeachment and removal down the road, or, less likely, some sort of Electoral Collage shenanigans.

    Manipulation of the Electoral College would be playing with fire, but in any case we will find out next Monday. Impeachment and removal has been used against the President of Brazil earlier this year, and is in the process of being used against the President of South Korea, and my guess is that its becoming something of a trend in presidential systems. And it could actually be sold to the American public, plus the threat of it would be a good way of controlling Trump.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @ben tillman, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Charles Erwin Wilson

  21. @CrunchybutRealistCon
    It is chilling to reflect how much damage was done in the period 1995-97 by neoliberals, neocons. From the strangling by Buckley et al of paleoconservatism (O'Sullivan, Buchanan, Brimelow,...), the ascent of the vile Tony Blair & his nation breaking immigration scheme, the looting of Russia, the acceleration of mass immigration into Scandinavia, the entrenchment of speech codes across the EU & Anglosphere, and the war on Christians in the remnants of Yugoslavia. Oh, what might have been if the Alt Right / Alt Light had the populist media access then as today.

    Replies: @Opinionator, @eD, @Olorin

    That was also a period of accelerating illegal immigration (all time record levels?) into the United States.

    What is more, around then, or a little after, Palestine was hit with a massive increase in jewish immigration into and colonization of the West Bank–leading eventually 9/11.

    • LOL: IHTG
    • Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon
    @Opinionator

    Estimating about 28-35 million legal & illegal immigrants into US since '96...but who is counting now...just strings of zeros...and areas falling like dominos into majority-minority status. Another epic doozie from '95-00 was Bob Rubin, Larry Summers & Phil Gramm repealing Glass-Steagall. Plus the credit derivative nonsense which led to the '08 meltdown. The 90s were arguably the worst decade for western civ since the 40s.

    , @Gabriel M
    @Opinionator


    What is more, around then, or a little after, Palestine was hit with a massive increase in jewish immigration into and colonization of the West Bank–leading eventually 9/11.
     
    ~

    In reality-world, "then, or a little after" was the time of the implementation of the Oslo accords, the dismantlement of numerous settlements and the cordoning off of many areas as forbidden to settlers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_statistics_for_Israeli_settlements_in_the_West_Bank

    The rate of settlement activity didn't pick up again until about 2003. Of course, you can still blame Israel for every problem in the world, but you'll need to change your story a bit. I'll help: Israel caused Muslims to blow up the twin towers to convince everyone that Muslims were violent so they could build more settlements. Glad to help.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  22. While the Time article discussed Amrican influence on Yeltsin’s election, American influence on Yeltsin’s administration was even more important and pernicious! Steve Cohen, Emeritus Professor of Russian History at Princeton and New York University, has stated that Americans were formulating written policies for the Yeltsin administration which in turn were carried out. And we know how “That Worked Out Well.”

    It was Steve Sailer who first alerted me to how the Russian economy and people were devastated (or more bluntly raped) by the Oligarchs who in turn were given “cover” by American-formulated policies. Amy Chua in turn alerted Steve to the backgrounds of the Oligarchs!

  23. @candid_observer
    One of the more depressing things about the current "Trump is a Russian Stooge" craze, and the other lunacies shrieking in the media is their opportunity cost, pushing out all observation of anything true and interesting about our nearly revolutionary times.

    What might be the actual economic costs and gains of pulling back from current trade arrangements, and reducing free movement of jobs from our country? Who wins and who loses? Is there any way this can be made to work well for current American workers?

    What kind of management style might we expect from someone like Trump, given his unique background as someone who became President without ever being in government in any capacity, but who was successful in his own private business? What might be the upside and downside to such a background?

    What does it mean to be looking out strictly for American interests in the current world, from a diplomatic and military point of view? What should be the limits to our obligations to other countries, and to people in other countries?

    You see, we can't have those discussions in the current media environment. In that setting, the only permitted "analyses" are those that show we are heading off to doom, that Trump is the first phase of Hitler, that the Russians are Coming, and that men in white hoods rampage through our lands in bloodthirsty search of the Dark Other.

    Replies: @eD, @Forbes

    Shrewd comment (Candid Observer #11).

  24. @CrunchybutRealistCon
    It is chilling to reflect how much damage was done in the period 1995-97 by neoliberals, neocons. From the strangling by Buckley et al of paleoconservatism (O'Sullivan, Buchanan, Brimelow,...), the ascent of the vile Tony Blair & his nation breaking immigration scheme, the looting of Russia, the acceleration of mass immigration into Scandinavia, the entrenchment of speech codes across the EU & Anglosphere, and the war on Christians in the remnants of Yugoslavia. Oh, what might have been if the Alt Right / Alt Light had the populist media access then as today.

    Replies: @Opinionator, @eD, @Olorin

    I was reasonably well informed about political and economic developments in the 1990s and was quite frankly depressed by them. I thought that things that were celebrated in the media would turn out to be disasters down the road, which turned out to be the case in every instance. But alot of the worst stuff wasn’t covered them and we’ve only been finding out about in driblets then.

  25. @Whiskey
    I overheard at a friends house the odious CNN (I don't have cable). The main line of attack is that Trump is not a legitimate President because the Russians hacked Hillary and her nasty cabal.

    If Hillary hadn't wanted to be hacked, maybe she shouldn't have been a crook, incompetent, and pissing of the Russians.

    After all, I'm old enough to remember four years ago when the Media and Obama were ridiculing Romney's assertions that the Russians were the US's number one geopolitical enemy.

    For those of the paranoid bent, this could be trial balloons to get some judge somewhere to rule that yes, Russia hacked Hillary so Trump cannot be President, and then Obama "against his will" suspends the results of all the elections, "because national security, or something." Then goes back to another four years of golf and moral lectures to his inferiors. And selling out America because racism. And White people. Or something.

    I would not put it past someone whose major life experiences were as a Muslim in Indonesia, and the exotic in the Ivy League and Chicago Politics. That's of course his plan. I don't think it will go that smoothly if they push it.

    Replies: @eD

    I generally disagree with Whiskey, but something does seem to be in the works, but what is probably happening is setting Trump up for impeachment and removal down the road, or, less likely, some sort of Electoral Collage shenanigans.

    Manipulation of the Electoral College would be playing with fire, but in any case we will find out next Monday. Impeachment and removal has been used against the President of Brazil earlier this year, and is in the process of being used against the President of South Korea, and my guess is that its becoming something of a trend in presidential systems. And it could actually be sold to the American public, plus the threat of it would be a good way of controlling Trump.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @eD


    something does seem to be in the works
     
    Hopefully it's just a mental breakdown of the left, but I wouldn't rule out anything at this point.
    , @ben tillman
    @eD


    Manipulation of the Electoral College would be playing with fire, but in any case we will find out next Monday. Impeachment and removal has been used against the President of Brazil earlier this year, and is in the process of being used against the President of South Korea, and my guess is that its becoming something of a trend in presidential systems. And it could actually be sold to the American public, plus the threat of it would be a good way of controlling Trump.
     
    The Democrats can't do it alone, but where would the Republican support come from, besides Grahamnesty and McCrazy? Trump's been putting establishment Republicans in positions of power throughout the executive branch. The GOP Establishment is a bunch of whores who will sell out their voters for donor money, but the sell-out is done to achieve power, and now that they have it what's to complain about? Isn't even Priebus on board?

    Replies: @eD

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @eD


    And it could actually be sold to the American public
     
    No, it could not be sold to the American public. Maybe in the days before the Internet, but not today.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @eD

    If Whiskey met a decent woman willing to overlook his faults, focus on his virtues, and fall in love with him I'd wager he would abandon his sphincter-eyed view of women and become a rational human being.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  26. According to the Time article, Yeltsin’s campaign team recruited the American advisors (former Pete Wilson campaign aides) via a US resident from Belarus. The effort wasn’t sponsored by the US, contrary to the assumptions of people spamming the magazine cover all over the Internet.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @O. Zerk

    Thank you for your thorough debunking of this meme. I'm sure you put even more effort to debunk the "Russia hacked the election" meme spread by the MSM and reaching perhaps way more people than the iSteve blog.

  27. @Opinionator
    @CrunchybutRealistCon

    That was also a period of accelerating illegal immigration (all time record levels?) into the United States.

    What is more, around then, or a little after, Palestine was hit with a massive increase in jewish immigration into and colonization of the West Bank--leading eventually 9/11.

    Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon, @Gabriel M

    Estimating about 28-35 million legal & illegal immigrants into US since ’96…but who is counting now…just strings of zeros…and areas falling like dominos into majority-minority status. Another epic doozie from ’95-00 was Bob Rubin, Larry Summers & Phil Gramm repealing Glass-Steagall. Plus the credit derivative nonsense which led to the ’08 meltdown. The 90s were arguably the worst decade for western civ since the 40s.

  28. The US has been very active in Russia through a web of NGOs. Some of these were thrown out in 2012, but others continue to do the good work.

    If the Russians have now decided to help Americans take better informed decisions… the Dems can hardly complain.

    • Agree: Opinionator
    • Replies: @anon
    @Hugh

    The 'pro democracy' NGO is funded by the US Government. There were a handful of these -- although not all officially funded by the US Government.

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/12/u-s-funded-democracy-ngo-pulls-out-of-russia/

  29. @SFG
    @Cagey Beast

    No, he's for real. He's into the weird AI stuff Scott Alexander is more loosely into, and they are in a lot of the same online communities (rationalist, libertarian, etc.)

    From what little I can tell the guy is a bona fide computer genius with the usual lack of understanding of human beings.

    Replies: @(((Owen))), @anonymous coward

    Eliezer Yudkowsky also wrote the best and second most widely read Harry Potter fan fiction in the world. The principal opus is “Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.” It’s like a well plotted rational blend of Ender’s Game and Harry Potter.

  30. @SFG
    @Cagey Beast

    No, he's for real. He's into the weird AI stuff Scott Alexander is more loosely into, and they are in a lot of the same online communities (rationalist, libertarian, etc.)

    From what little I can tell the guy is a bona fide computer genius with the usual lack of understanding of human beings.

    Replies: @(((Owen))), @anonymous coward

    guy is a bona fide computer genius

    He is certainly not, he cannot even program.

    His claim to 15 minutes of fame is writing the most popular Harry Potter fanfiction novel. (Seriously.)

    • Replies: @(((Owen)))
    @anonymous coward


    His claim to 15 minutes of fame is writing the most popular Harry Potter fanfiction novel. (Seriously.)
     
    The second most popular Harry Potter fanfic novel. It's really long and quite good: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality."

    And he runs a big part of the lesswrong.com corner of the rationalist community which has a lot of overlap with redpill, alt-right, dark enlightenment, and various other modern noticing-oriented communities.
  31. Boris Yeltsin’s head looks like a potato in that picture.

    – On second thoughts, that’s an insult to potatoes, potatoes are far more intelligent.

  32. If the Russians were planting ‘fake’ news stories perhaps the great and the good could list which ones they were, pointing out exactly what is fake about them.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    @Lurker

    The Wall Street Journal had a lengthy page one story last week (Friday?) that listed two websites, and one story each. The first was a parody website, while the second cited a story that "claimed" Michelle Obama was not the birth mother of her daughters.

    I'm not smart enough to figure out how such "fake news" influenced the election.

    http:/www.wsj.com/articles/fake-news-sites-inadvertently-funded-by-big-brands-1481193004?emailToken=JRrzdvB5ZnSUhtYxZ8wy3V4lK68FFPTMXVLLIWuPO07FuGLYu/6swbkxlp65vGWjSEo/7cFB5W8wADfLiWxmR4rIx+4myAb/IyEB

  33. Hillary trapped in the Russian Conspiracy.

    Yes, she would have won if not for the vast conspiracy.

  34. @anonymous coward
    @SFG


    guy is a bona fide computer genius
     
    He is certainly not, he cannot even program.

    His claim to 15 minutes of fame is writing the most popular Harry Potter fanfiction novel. (Seriously.)

    Replies: @(((Owen)))

    His claim to 15 minutes of fame is writing the most popular Harry Potter fanfiction novel. (Seriously.)

    The second most popular Harry Potter fanfic novel. It’s really long and quite good: “Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.”

    And he runs a big part of the lesswrong.com corner of the rationalist community which has a lot of overlap with redpill, alt-right, dark enlightenment, and various other modern noticing-oriented communities.

  35. @Opinionator
    @CrunchybutRealistCon

    That was also a period of accelerating illegal immigration (all time record levels?) into the United States.

    What is more, around then, or a little after, Palestine was hit with a massive increase in jewish immigration into and colonization of the West Bank--leading eventually 9/11.

    Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon, @Gabriel M

    What is more, around then, or a little after, Palestine was hit with a massive increase in jewish immigration into and colonization of the West Bank–leading eventually 9/11.

    ~

    In reality-world, “then, or a little after” was the time of the implementation of the Oslo accords, the dismantlement of numerous settlements and the cordoning off of many areas as forbidden to settlers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_statistics_for_Israeli_settlements_in_the_West_Bank

    The rate of settlement activity didn’t pick up again until about 2003. Of course, you can still blame Israel for every problem in the world, but you’ll need to change your story a bit. I’ll help: Israel caused Muslims to blow up the twin towers to convince everyone that Muslims were violent so they could build more settlements. Glad to help.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Gabriel M

    I remember having read in the early naughts that the settler population grew faster (in absolute terms) during those Oslo years than in the preceding decade, but you are right that Palestine had very little to do with 911, if anything at all.

    Replies: @Gabriel M, @Opinionator, @Opinionator

  36. @Daniel H
    Good work, whoever uncovered this. From this blog to thousands of Twitter and Facebook feeds.

    Replies: @Anonymous Nephew

    “From this blog to thousands of Twitter and Facebook feeds.”

    Originally the other way round. I read (IIRC on a now-vanished Ricky Vaughn twitter account) a tweet (or a retweet, who knows?) showing that 1996 Time cover alongside the cover of October 10, 2016.

    http://time.com/magazine/us/4512760/october-10th-2016-vol-188-no-14-u-s/

    “Russia wants to undermine faith in the US election. Don’t fall for it”

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Anonymous Nephew


    “Russia wants to undermine faith in the US election. Don’t fall for it”

     

    Maybe the dumbest part of Frum's article is the contention that the failure of RNC emails to be made public demonstrates that Russia supports Trump. If you were hacking with the intention of supporting Trump, the obvious thing would be to steal both DNC and RNC emails and leak both after scrubbing/sanitizing the RNC emails, thus covering your intentions while at the same time showing the RNC as comparatively ethical. If the Russians did steal the DNC emails, the Putin stooge is Frum, not Trump.
  37. @Johann Ricke
    Original Time link here. Would Russia be better off if the Zyuganov the Communist had won? We shall never know.

    Science "won the day again," says Dresner. "We showed we'd been right from the start." From then on, the American team's influence grew--and anticommunism became the central and repeated focus of the campaign and the candidate.

    Having helped establish the campaign's major theme, the Americans then set out to modify it. The Americans used their focus-group coordinator, Alexei Levinson, to determine what exactly Russians most feared about the Communists. Long lines, scarce food and renationalization of property were frequently cited, but mostly people worried about civil war. "That allowed us to move beyond simple Red bashing," says Shumate. "That's why Yeltsin and his surrogates and our advertising all highlighted the possibility of unrest if Yeltsin lost. Many people felt some nostalgia for what the communists had done for Russia and no one liked the President--but they liked the possibility of riots and class warfare even less." "'Stick with Yeltsin and at least you'll have calm'--that was the line we wanted to convey," says Dresner. "So the drumbeat about unrest kept pounding right till the end of the run-off round, when the final TV spots were all about the Soviets' repressive rule."
     

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    The Time story was #FakeNews, because it implied that Yeltsin actually won the popular vote. He only won the vote counting, but the American advisors were crucial to make it close enough that a little bit of tampering with the results was enough.

  38. @Johann Ricke
    Original Time link here. Would Russia be better off if the Zyuganov the Communist had won? We shall never know.

    Science "won the day again," says Dresner. "We showed we'd been right from the start." From then on, the American team's influence grew--and anticommunism became the central and repeated focus of the campaign and the candidate.

    Having helped establish the campaign's major theme, the Americans then set out to modify it. The Americans used their focus-group coordinator, Alexei Levinson, to determine what exactly Russians most feared about the Communists. Long lines, scarce food and renationalization of property were frequently cited, but mostly people worried about civil war. "That allowed us to move beyond simple Red bashing," says Shumate. "That's why Yeltsin and his surrogates and our advertising all highlighted the possibility of unrest if Yeltsin lost. Many people felt some nostalgia for what the communists had done for Russia and no one liked the President--but they liked the possibility of riots and class warfare even less." "'Stick with Yeltsin and at least you'll have calm'--that was the line we wanted to convey," says Dresner. "So the drumbeat about unrest kept pounding right till the end of the run-off round, when the final TV spots were all about the Soviets' repressive rule."
     

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    The Americans used their focus-group coordinator, Alexei Levinson, to determine what exactly Russians most feared about the Communists. Long lines, scarce food and renationalization of property were frequently cited, but mostly people worried about civil war.

    In other words, the advice they gave to Yeltsin was to threaten the population with civil war in case they failed to re-elect him. Since he used tanks to crush the legislature in an unconstitutional coup just less than three years earlier, his threat was credible. Yet he still failed to win the majority of the vote, which just shows how hated he was in Russia at the time.

  39. @eD
    @Whiskey

    I generally disagree with Whiskey, but something does seem to be in the works, but what is probably happening is setting Trump up for impeachment and removal down the road, or, less likely, some sort of Electoral Collage shenanigans.

    Manipulation of the Electoral College would be playing with fire, but in any case we will find out next Monday. Impeachment and removal has been used against the President of Brazil earlier this year, and is in the process of being used against the President of South Korea, and my guess is that its becoming something of a trend in presidential systems. And it could actually be sold to the American public, plus the threat of it would be a good way of controlling Trump.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @ben tillman, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    something does seem to be in the works

    Hopefully it’s just a mental breakdown of the left, but I wouldn’t rule out anything at this point.

  40. @O. Zerk
    According to the Time article, Yeltsin's campaign team recruited the American advisors (former Pete Wilson campaign aides) via a US resident from Belarus. The effort wasn't sponsored by the US, contrary to the assumptions of people spamming the magazine cover all over the Internet.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Thank you for your thorough debunking of this meme. I’m sure you put even more effort to debunk the “Russia hacked the election” meme spread by the MSM and reaching perhaps way more people than the iSteve blog.

  41. @Hugh
    The US has been very active in Russia through a web of NGOs. Some of these were thrown out in 2012, but others continue to do the good work.

    If the Russians have now decided to help Americans take better informed decisions... the Dems can hardly complain.

    Replies: @anon

    The ‘pro democracy’ NGO is funded by the US Government. There were a handful of these — although not all officially funded by the US Government.

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/12/u-s-funded-democracy-ngo-pulls-out-of-russia/

  42. • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @reiner Tor

    Thanks. I was reading the Frum article in The Atlantic, and he is totally unhinged. Nice to read something more sane.

    Even if we accept for the moment that the Russians hacked the DNC to try to influence the election, the jump from that to "Trump is a Putin stooge" is completely unwarranted. The whole thing is based on a narrative of scary, powerful Vlad. If we imagine instead that the Russians are acting out of defensiveness, we can create a story in which Clinton's previous shenanigans with Libya and Ukraine caused the Russians to distrust her to the point of their own NeverHillary hacking campaign in order to avoid confrontation with the US. In that case, the Republican candidate would have been Putin's choice perhaps even if it were Romney*.

    (*BTW, anyone else notice that with all the confirmation bias going down around Trump-Putin, everyone has missed that Trump was apparently considering the anti-Russian Romney as SoS?)

  43. @Gabriel M
    @Opinionator


    What is more, around then, or a little after, Palestine was hit with a massive increase in jewish immigration into and colonization of the West Bank–leading eventually 9/11.
     
    ~

    In reality-world, "then, or a little after" was the time of the implementation of the Oslo accords, the dismantlement of numerous settlements and the cordoning off of many areas as forbidden to settlers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_statistics_for_Israeli_settlements_in_the_West_Bank

    The rate of settlement activity didn't pick up again until about 2003. Of course, you can still blame Israel for every problem in the world, but you'll need to change your story a bit. I'll help: Israel caused Muslims to blow up the twin towers to convince everyone that Muslims were violent so they could build more settlements. Glad to help.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I remember having read in the early naughts that the settler population grew faster (in absolute terms) during those Oslo years than in the preceding decade, but you are right that Palestine had very little to do with 911, if anything at all.

    • Replies: @Gabriel M
    @reiner Tor

    I have read similar claims. They are basically lies. Before Oslo over 140 settlements were established, since Oslo 5. The growth in settler population is a function of the fact that settlers - inhuman monsters that they are - have babies; there certainly was no "massive increase in jewish immigration into and colonization of the West Bank" as one of the many Fakestinian-news mongers at this website just claimed. By the same argument you could claim that White "immigration and colonization" of the Americas has been vastly higher 1960-2010 than in 1660-1710. It's just stupid.

    Another factor is that half of Israel's fast-growing capital city is classified as a settlement. (As far as I can tell Arab Israelis who live in East Jerusalem are classified as settlers, but I might be wrong in that).

    , @Opinionator
    @reiner Tor

    Jewish colonies in the West Bank grew by nearly 60% between 1992, right before Oslo, and 2000, when the second Palestinian uprising began. These stats may understate the true numbers as they appear to be drawn from Israeli government public data, which does not include "outposts" and may in any event may have a lowball bias.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2015/11/11/a-look-at-the-growth-of-israeli-settlements-over-the-years

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/22/map-the-spread-of-israeli-settlements-in-the-west-bank/?utm_term=.909933085c88

    And yes, the jewish conquest of Palestine and the oppression of its people were the chief motivation for 9/11, according to the 9/11 Commission, Al Qaeda's statements after the event, Bin Laden's speeches and writing in the years leading up to the event, and bios of mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna

    , @Opinionator
    @reiner Tor

    Oh, and I meant to add:

    In 1996, the Netanyahu cabinet lifted formal restrictions on settlement building and publicly embraced settlement expansion.

  44. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Why is there all the hub bub about Russia influencing the U. S. election when everybody knows it is Israel who decides who gets elected in the U.S.? Also, isn’t ironic that Hillary supporters are looking for cheating on the part of Trump when she stole the primary from Bernie Sanders by cheating?

    • Replies: @Forbes
    @Anon

    Projection.

  45. @reiner Tor

    Thanks. I was reading the Frum article in The Atlantic, and he is totally unhinged. Nice to read something more sane.

    Even if we accept for the moment that the Russians hacked the DNC to try to influence the election, the jump from that to “Trump is a Putin stooge” is completely unwarranted. The whole thing is based on a narrative of scary, powerful Vlad. If we imagine instead that the Russians are acting out of defensiveness, we can create a story in which Clinton’s previous shenanigans with Libya and Ukraine caused the Russians to distrust her to the point of their own NeverHillary hacking campaign in order to avoid confrontation with the US. In that case, the Republican candidate would have been Putin’s choice perhaps even if it were Romney*.

    (*BTW, anyone else notice that with all the confirmation bias going down around Trump-Putin, everyone has missed that Trump was apparently considering the anti-Russian Romney as SoS?)

  46. The mistake Americans make is assuming that Putin represents a response to Yeltsin, when Putin is simply a continuation of the same people who were behind Yeltsin. Yeltsin was a drunken fool whom various factions of the ex-Soviet elite found useful to maintain in power while they fought behind the scenes over who would actually rule Russia. Putin runs the winning team, which was mostly KGB and energy guys from Leningrad. Quite a lot of the Yeltsin team is still working with Putin, and doing quite well – Chubais, Aven, Fridman, and Roman Abramovich (who supposedly recommended Putin to Yeltsin as a potential successor).

    The idea that American advisors actually had any real say in Russian politics is kind of a joke. Russian elites are very smart people and never viewed the Harvard boys as anything more than useful idiots.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Correct. Putin represents the consolidation, stabilization and normalization of the Russian nineties and entrenchment of the new 90s elite. An analogy of Putin being Stalin to Yeltsin's Lenin has various flaws (for instance, as your examples demonstrate, there has been much less purging of 90s "pioneers" than there had been of Old Bolsheviks) but generally captures the relationship between the Russia of Yeltsin and that of Putin.

    Do you remember that movie with Mikhalkov, Zhmurki? I think it was in part meant to poke fun at the post-Soviet "democrats", showing their youth as murderous street gangsters in the early 90s. Well, take these same people, age them another 10 years, turn them into patrons of the Orthodox Church and obedient members of United Russia...

    This is not meant as simply a criticism of Russia under Putin. Stabilization and entrenchment required that regular folks experienced marked improvement in their standard of living, which has certainly happened. Ukraine's elite failed to do this to large extent. Consolidation also means that it is clear who is in charge, making violence much less frequent; the spoils have been divided.

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Peter Akuleyev


    Russian elites are very smart people and never viewed the Harvard boys as anything more than useful idiots
     
    But that just CANNOT be true, because Harvard boys, and Lincoln Steffens, and investigative reporters like I.F. Stone, are never useful idiots. After all, Harvard grads are smarter than anybody on Planet Earth. Oh, wait,...
  47. @reiner Tor
    @Gabriel M

    I remember having read in the early naughts that the settler population grew faster (in absolute terms) during those Oslo years than in the preceding decade, but you are right that Palestine had very little to do with 911, if anything at all.

    Replies: @Gabriel M, @Opinionator, @Opinionator

    I have read similar claims. They are basically lies. Before Oslo over 140 settlements were established, since Oslo 5. The growth in settler population is a function of the fact that settlers – inhuman monsters that they are – have babies; there certainly was no “massive increase in jewish immigration into and colonization of the West Bank” as one of the many Fakestinian-news mongers at this website just claimed. By the same argument you could claim that White “immigration and colonization” of the Americas has been vastly higher 1960-2010 than in 1660-1710. It’s just stupid.

    Another factor is that half of Israel’s fast-growing capital city is classified as a settlement. (As far as I can tell Arab Israelis who live in East Jerusalem are classified as settlers, but I might be wrong in that).

  48. @eD
    @Whiskey

    I generally disagree with Whiskey, but something does seem to be in the works, but what is probably happening is setting Trump up for impeachment and removal down the road, or, less likely, some sort of Electoral Collage shenanigans.

    Manipulation of the Electoral College would be playing with fire, but in any case we will find out next Monday. Impeachment and removal has been used against the President of Brazil earlier this year, and is in the process of being used against the President of South Korea, and my guess is that its becoming something of a trend in presidential systems. And it could actually be sold to the American public, plus the threat of it would be a good way of controlling Trump.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @ben tillman, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Manipulation of the Electoral College would be playing with fire, but in any case we will find out next Monday. Impeachment and removal has been used against the President of Brazil earlier this year, and is in the process of being used against the President of South Korea, and my guess is that its becoming something of a trend in presidential systems. And it could actually be sold to the American public, plus the threat of it would be a good way of controlling Trump.

    The Democrats can’t do it alone, but where would the Republican support come from, besides Grahamnesty and McCrazy? Trump’s been putting establishment Republicans in positions of power throughout the executive branch. The GOP Establishment is a bunch of whores who will sell out their voters for donor money, but the sell-out is done to achieve power, and now that they have it what’s to complain about? Isn’t even Priebus on board?

    • Replies: @eD
    @ben tillman

    "The Democrats can’t do it alone, but where would the Republican support come"

    Yes, you are correct that there is no way the Democrats could do this alone. My point has been that the Republican establishment and the Democratic establishment could get rid of Trump easily if they co-operated. Combined they have the requisite super-majorities in both houses of Congress. They can't do it alone, but they could co-operate to put an establishment Republican, acceptable to the Donks, in the White House. Essentially this is what happened in 1974, though there would be some difference in the Republicans having control of Congress this time around.

    Remember the underlying architecture, or operating system, of American style constitutional systems allows a united legislature to take back control or get rid of the executive at any time, with the provision that it has to be united (two thirds), unlike in parliamentary systems when a simple majority in the lower House is enough. This stays submerged because of the two party system and obviously the party that holds the executive as well would not want to undermine it.

    Why would the Democratic establishment exchange one Republican President for another? Well they did that in 1974 and this assumes the establishment of both parties settle their differences and worked together.

    Why would the Republican establishment dump Trump? Well there was talk of them doing exactly this at the Convention. Trump pivoted hard to the GOP establishment and the talk died down. He is now pivoting hard to the GOP establishment, and my guess is that it is for the same reason. He still has the electoral college vote to get through. Maybe at some point he will want to stop compromising and implement some of his program, even if he risks removal. But it will always be a real risk.

  49. @Anonymous
    OT: Great headline here:

    Bolton suggests DNC hack was Obama administration 'false flag'

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/bolton-suggests-dnc-hack-was-obama-administration-false-flag/article/2609395

    Any reference to a false flag in the media is a good thing even if they put it in scare quotes. One day conservatives will have to admit that these events are widespread and not "conspiracy theories"...

    Every lesbian in the country understands that false flag hoaxes are an excellent tactic for advancing an agenda. But Bill O'Reilly and other respectable media voices are not so sure!!!

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    Any reference to a false flag in the media is a good thing even if they put it in scare quotes.

    Not necessarily. Politico mis-defined the term in their article on Bolton.

    Generally, I think false flag accusations are a little crazy. However, with regard to this one, I will say that back during the campaign, when Obama announced that they had put together a team of cyber security experts to prevent someone altering the election results, I thought it quite odd. Certainly, that kind of security is an ongoing concern, not something they just decided to address. Why announce it unless you are trying to set people up for a confirmation bias manipulation?

  50. @Anonymous Nephew
    @Daniel H

    "From this blog to thousands of Twitter and Facebook feeds."

    Originally the other way round. I read (IIRC on a now-vanished Ricky Vaughn twitter account) a tweet (or a retweet, who knows?) showing that 1996 Time cover alongside the cover of October 10, 2016.

    http://time.com/magazine/us/4512760/october-10th-2016-vol-188-no-14-u-s/

    "Russia wants to undermine faith in the US election. Don't fall for it"

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    “Russia wants to undermine faith in the US election. Don’t fall for it”

    Maybe the dumbest part of Frum’s article is the contention that the failure of RNC emails to be made public demonstrates that Russia supports Trump. If you were hacking with the intention of supporting Trump, the obvious thing would be to steal both DNC and RNC emails and leak both after scrubbing/sanitizing the RNC emails, thus covering your intentions while at the same time showing the RNC as comparatively ethical. If the Russians did steal the DNC emails, the Putin stooge is Frum, not Trump.

  51. Hmm, I think the US citizens involved in conspiring with their ethnic confrères in Russia to destroy that society are perhaps not best described as “yanks”

  52. @ben tillman
    @eD


    Manipulation of the Electoral College would be playing with fire, but in any case we will find out next Monday. Impeachment and removal has been used against the President of Brazil earlier this year, and is in the process of being used against the President of South Korea, and my guess is that its becoming something of a trend in presidential systems. And it could actually be sold to the American public, plus the threat of it would be a good way of controlling Trump.
     
    The Democrats can't do it alone, but where would the Republican support come from, besides Grahamnesty and McCrazy? Trump's been putting establishment Republicans in positions of power throughout the executive branch. The GOP Establishment is a bunch of whores who will sell out their voters for donor money, but the sell-out is done to achieve power, and now that they have it what's to complain about? Isn't even Priebus on board?

    Replies: @eD

    “The Democrats can’t do it alone, but where would the Republican support come”

    Yes, you are correct that there is no way the Democrats could do this alone. My point has been that the Republican establishment and the Democratic establishment could get rid of Trump easily if they co-operated. Combined they have the requisite super-majorities in both houses of Congress. They can’t do it alone, but they could co-operate to put an establishment Republican, acceptable to the Donks, in the White House. Essentially this is what happened in 1974, though there would be some difference in the Republicans having control of Congress this time around.

    Remember the underlying architecture, or operating system, of American style constitutional systems allows a united legislature to take back control or get rid of the executive at any time, with the provision that it has to be united (two thirds), unlike in parliamentary systems when a simple majority in the lower House is enough. This stays submerged because of the two party system and obviously the party that holds the executive as well would not want to undermine it.

    Why would the Democratic establishment exchange one Republican President for another? Well they did that in 1974 and this assumes the establishment of both parties settle their differences and worked together.

    Why would the Republican establishment dump Trump? Well there was talk of them doing exactly this at the Convention. Trump pivoted hard to the GOP establishment and the talk died down. He is now pivoting hard to the GOP establishment, and my guess is that it is for the same reason. He still has the electoral college vote to get through. Maybe at some point he will want to stop compromising and implement some of his program, even if he risks removal. But it will always be a real risk.

  53. Schindler says Trump is in big trouble with the CIA:
    http://observer.com/2016/12/trump-declares-war-on-the-intelligence-community/

    Trump, being new to Washington, doesn’t know that when you declare war on the spies, the spies always win in the end. The IC cares little if anything for partisan politics, but they will protect their turf and their reputation when they’re impugned by politicians. Our spy agencies fight among each other nonstop, but woe to the pol who gives them common cause by insulting them in public.

    True to form, this morning the president-elect was tweeting insults, mocking the CIA assessment of Russian hacking as a “conspiracy theory,” adding, “Unless you catch ‘hackers’ in the act, it is very hard to determine who was doing the hacking. Why wasn’t this brought up before election?”

    In reality, Western intelligence has caught Kremlin-linked hackers in the act, many times, while this knotty matter was publicly brought up on numerous occasions over the summer and fall, including in my column. We are now living in the interesting times which ancient Chinese sages warned of.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @fnn

    Schindler's articles are heavy on accusations and conclusive statements, but light on details and specifics. He says a Kremlin disinformation machine had a widespread influence on the election. Which disinformation came from the Kremlin? Was Hillary actually holding lots of press conferences and large rallies throughout the campaign?

    Just as we had generals on both sides during the campaign, we now have IC insiders on both sides--saying the CIA has smoking guns and saying the CIA has squat. When I see it with my own eyes, I'll believe it.

    Another thing is that Schindler claims it would be terrible if we aligned with Russian goals. What are those and why so terrible? This goes back to Russia's bucking of the liberal globalist agenda--to what extent is anti-Russian agitating aimed at international peace and to what extent at allying with Pussy Riot?

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Opinionator
    @fnn

    The story is so vague and ambiguously sourced that it is hard to imagine the CIA taking offense at a skeptical reaction to it.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  54. @reiner Tor
    @Gabriel M

    I remember having read in the early naughts that the settler population grew faster (in absolute terms) during those Oslo years than in the preceding decade, but you are right that Palestine had very little to do with 911, if anything at all.

    Replies: @Gabriel M, @Opinionator, @Opinionator

    Jewish colonies in the West Bank grew by nearly 60% between 1992, right before Oslo, and 2000, when the second Palestinian uprising began. These stats may understate the true numbers as they appear to be drawn from Israeli government public data, which does not include “outposts” and may in any event may have a lowball bias.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2015/11/11/a-look-at-the-growth-of-israeli-settlements-over-the-years

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/22/map-the-spread-of-israeli-settlements-in-the-west-bank/?utm_term=.909933085c88

    And yes, the jewish conquest of Palestine and the oppression of its people were the chief motivation for 9/11, according to the 9/11 Commission, Al Qaeda’s statements after the event, Bin Laden’s speeches and writing in the years leading up to the event, and bios of mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    @Opinionator

    Remember, Americans weren't permitted to read Osama's "Letter to America". Condoleezma insisted it might contain coded messages to his followers. The MSM repeated this claim without comment. A few of us simply read it in the Guardian, or elsewhere.

    Replies: @Opinionator

  55. @reiner Tor
    @Gabriel M

    I remember having read in the early naughts that the settler population grew faster (in absolute terms) during those Oslo years than in the preceding decade, but you are right that Palestine had very little to do with 911, if anything at all.

    Replies: @Gabriel M, @Opinionator, @Opinionator

    Oh, and I meant to add:

    In 1996, the Netanyahu cabinet lifted formal restrictions on settlement building and publicly embraced settlement expansion.

  56. @candid_observer
    One of the more depressing things about the current "Trump is a Russian Stooge" craze, and the other lunacies shrieking in the media is their opportunity cost, pushing out all observation of anything true and interesting about our nearly revolutionary times.

    What might be the actual economic costs and gains of pulling back from current trade arrangements, and reducing free movement of jobs from our country? Who wins and who loses? Is there any way this can be made to work well for current American workers?

    What kind of management style might we expect from someone like Trump, given his unique background as someone who became President without ever being in government in any capacity, but who was successful in his own private business? What might be the upside and downside to such a background?

    What does it mean to be looking out strictly for American interests in the current world, from a diplomatic and military point of view? What should be the limits to our obligations to other countries, and to people in other countries?

    You see, we can't have those discussions in the current media environment. In that setting, the only permitted "analyses" are those that show we are heading off to doom, that Trump is the first phase of Hitler, that the Russians are Coming, and that men in white hoods rampage through our lands in bloodthirsty search of the Dark Other.

    Replies: @eD, @Forbes

    You see, we can’t have those discussions in the current media environment.

    We don’t have those discussions in any media environment. With Obama, it was “he’s Mr. Wonderful” 24/7.

    Trade-offs, costs vs benefits, policy consequences whether intended or otherwise were all avoided for the Messiah, the bringer of peace–the smartest guy in the room. That Obama lacked any rudimentary experience was the bug that was a feature. He ran a successful campaign–proof of the necessary qualifications that he would be successful as president. It was foreordained. All that was necessary was to “get with the program.”

  57. @CrunchybutRealistCon
    It is chilling to reflect how much damage was done in the period 1995-97 by neoliberals, neocons. From the strangling by Buckley et al of paleoconservatism (O'Sullivan, Buchanan, Brimelow,...), the ascent of the vile Tony Blair & his nation breaking immigration scheme, the looting of Russia, the acceleration of mass immigration into Scandinavia, the entrenchment of speech codes across the EU & Anglosphere, and the war on Christians in the remnants of Yugoslavia. Oh, what might have been if the Alt Right / Alt Light had the populist media access then as today.

    Replies: @Opinionator, @eD, @Olorin

    In the ’90s there were many efforts to establish populist media and access to them, using the new technologies of the Internet.

    They were slated for co-optation and/or destruction by the elites.

    This is as good an overall/first-view treatment of it as I’ve seen:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/15/the-progressive-movement-is-a-pr-front-for-rich-democrats/

    Hopefully our media are more dispersed and resistant to co-optation today…but those who cannot reasonably co-opt them certainly will try to shut them down, as we are witnessing at present.

  58. @Lurker
    If the Russians were planting 'fake' news stories perhaps the great and the good could list which ones they were, pointing out exactly what is fake about them.

    Replies: @Forbes

    The Wall Street Journal had a lengthy page one story last week (Friday?) that listed two websites, and one story each. The first was a parody website, while the second cited a story that “claimed” Michelle Obama was not the birth mother of her daughters.

    I’m not smart enough to figure out how such “fake news” influenced the election.

    http:/www.wsj.com/articles/fake-news-sites-inadvertently-funded-by-big-brands-1481193004?emailToken=JRrzdvB5ZnSUhtYxZ8wy3V4lK68FFPTMXVLLIWuPO07FuGLYu/6swbkxlp65vGWjSEo/7cFB5W8wADfLiWxmR4rIx+4myAb/IyEB

  59. @Anon
    Why is there all the hub bub about Russia influencing the U. S. election when everybody knows it is Israel who decides who gets elected in the U.S.? Also, isn't ironic that Hillary supporters are looking for cheating on the part of Trump when she stole the primary from Bernie Sanders by cheating?

    Replies: @Forbes

    Projection.

  60. @fnn
    Schindler says Trump is in big trouble with the CIA:
    http://observer.com/2016/12/trump-declares-war-on-the-intelligence-community/

    Trump, being new to Washington, doesn’t know that when you declare war on the spies, the spies always win in the end. The IC cares little if anything for partisan politics, but they will protect their turf and their reputation when they’re impugned by politicians. Our spy agencies fight among each other nonstop, but woe to the pol who gives them common cause by insulting them in public.

    True to form, this morning the president-elect was tweeting insults, mocking the CIA assessment of Russian hacking as a “conspiracy theory,” adding, “Unless you catch ‘hackers’ in the act, it is very hard to determine who was doing the hacking. Why wasn’t this brought up before election?”

    In reality, Western intelligence has caught Kremlin-linked hackers in the act, many times, while this knotty matter was publicly brought up on numerous occasions over the summer and fall, including in my column. We are now living in the interesting times which ancient Chinese sages warned of.
     

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Opinionator

    Schindler’s articles are heavy on accusations and conclusive statements, but light on details and specifics. He says a Kremlin disinformation machine had a widespread influence on the election. Which disinformation came from the Kremlin? Was Hillary actually holding lots of press conferences and large rallies throughout the campaign?

    Just as we had generals on both sides during the campaign, we now have IC insiders on both sides–saying the CIA has smoking guns and saying the CIA has squat. When I see it with my own eyes, I’ll believe it.

    Another thing is that Schindler claims it would be terrible if we aligned with Russian goals. What are those and why so terrible? This goes back to Russia’s bucking of the liberal globalist agenda–to what extent is anti-Russian agitating aimed at international peace and to what extent at allying with Pussy Riot?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Chrisnonymous


    to what extent is anti-Russian agitating aimed at international peace and to what extent at allying with Pussy Riot?
     
    For SJWs it's all about Pussy Riot. For the globalists pulling the strings of the SJWs it's all about Russia not getting with globalist program. Those Russians are so evil they think they should be allowed to run their own country. Can you believe it?
  61. @fnn
    Schindler says Trump is in big trouble with the CIA:
    http://observer.com/2016/12/trump-declares-war-on-the-intelligence-community/

    Trump, being new to Washington, doesn’t know that when you declare war on the spies, the spies always win in the end. The IC cares little if anything for partisan politics, but they will protect their turf and their reputation when they’re impugned by politicians. Our spy agencies fight among each other nonstop, but woe to the pol who gives them common cause by insulting them in public.

    True to form, this morning the president-elect was tweeting insults, mocking the CIA assessment of Russian hacking as a “conspiracy theory,” adding, “Unless you catch ‘hackers’ in the act, it is very hard to determine who was doing the hacking. Why wasn’t this brought up before election?”

    In reality, Western intelligence has caught Kremlin-linked hackers in the act, many times, while this knotty matter was publicly brought up on numerous occasions over the summer and fall, including in my column. We are now living in the interesting times which ancient Chinese sages warned of.
     

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Opinionator

    The story is so vague and ambiguously sourced that it is hard to imagine the CIA taking offense at a skeptical reaction to it.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Opinionator


    The story is so vague and ambiguously sourced that it is hard to imagine the CIA taking offense at a skeptical reaction to it.
     
    The CIA taking offense is the whole point.

    Replies: @Opinionator

  62. @Opinionator
    @fnn

    The story is so vague and ambiguously sourced that it is hard to imagine the CIA taking offense at a skeptical reaction to it.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    The story is so vague and ambiguously sourced that it is hard to imagine the CIA taking offense at a skeptical reaction to it.

    The CIA taking offense is the whole point.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    @Desiderius

    How so?

    Replies: @Desiderius

  63. @Peter Akuleyev
    The mistake Americans make is assuming that Putin represents a response to Yeltsin, when Putin is simply a continuation of the same people who were behind Yeltsin. Yeltsin was a drunken fool whom various factions of the ex-Soviet elite found useful to maintain in power while they fought behind the scenes over who would actually rule Russia. Putin runs the winning team, which was mostly KGB and energy guys from Leningrad. Quite a lot of the Yeltsin team is still working with Putin, and doing quite well - Chubais, Aven, Fridman, and Roman Abramovich (who supposedly recommended Putin to Yeltsin as a potential successor).

    The idea that American advisors actually had any real say in Russian politics is kind of a joke. Russian elites are very smart people and never viewed the Harvard boys as anything more than useful idiots.

    Replies: @AP, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Correct. Putin represents the consolidation, stabilization and normalization of the Russian nineties and entrenchment of the new 90s elite. An analogy of Putin being Stalin to Yeltsin’s Lenin has various flaws (for instance, as your examples demonstrate, there has been much less purging of 90s “pioneers” than there had been of Old Bolsheviks) but generally captures the relationship between the Russia of Yeltsin and that of Putin.

    Do you remember that movie with Mikhalkov, Zhmurki? I think it was in part meant to poke fun at the post-Soviet “democrats”, showing their youth as murderous street gangsters in the early 90s. Well, take these same people, age them another 10 years, turn them into patrons of the Orthodox Church and obedient members of United Russia…

    This is not meant as simply a criticism of Russia under Putin. Stabilization and entrenchment required that regular folks experienced marked improvement in their standard of living, which has certainly happened. Ukraine’s elite failed to do this to large extent. Consolidation also means that it is clear who is in charge, making violence much less frequent; the spoils have been divided.

  64. @Dennis Dale
    I'm sure there's a Russian equivalent of "payback's a bitch", though I'd hardly think helping elect a nationalist here makes up for us carving up their economy. Shit, we ought to screw the Russians over more often!

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna

    I’m sure there’s a Russian equivalent of “payback’s a bitch”

    In Soviet Drussia, bitch pays you back

  65. @eD
    @Whiskey

    I generally disagree with Whiskey, but something does seem to be in the works, but what is probably happening is setting Trump up for impeachment and removal down the road, or, less likely, some sort of Electoral Collage shenanigans.

    Manipulation of the Electoral College would be playing with fire, but in any case we will find out next Monday. Impeachment and removal has been used against the President of Brazil earlier this year, and is in the process of being used against the President of South Korea, and my guess is that its becoming something of a trend in presidential systems. And it could actually be sold to the American public, plus the threat of it would be a good way of controlling Trump.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @ben tillman, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    And it could actually be sold to the American public

    No, it could not be sold to the American public. Maybe in the days before the Internet, but not today.

  66. @eD
    @Whiskey

    I generally disagree with Whiskey, but something does seem to be in the works, but what is probably happening is setting Trump up for impeachment and removal down the road, or, less likely, some sort of Electoral Collage shenanigans.

    Manipulation of the Electoral College would be playing with fire, but in any case we will find out next Monday. Impeachment and removal has been used against the President of Brazil earlier this year, and is in the process of being used against the President of South Korea, and my guess is that its becoming something of a trend in presidential systems. And it could actually be sold to the American public, plus the threat of it would be a good way of controlling Trump.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @ben tillman, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    If Whiskey met a decent woman willing to overlook his faults, focus on his virtues, and fall in love with him I’d wager he would abandon his sphincter-eyed view of women and become a rational human being.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Charles Erwin Wilson


    If Whiskey met a decent woman willing to overlook his faults, focus on his virtues, and fall in love with him I’d wager he would abandon his sphincter-eyed view of women and become a rational human being.
     
    The irony is that I wouldn't have met, and certainly couldn't have kept, the more than decent woman who every day focuses on my virtues, overlooks my faults, and stays in love with me if I hadn't gone through that sphinter-eyed stage. It's the only known cure for the anti-masculinity cultural programming that's claimed many of what would be our best men.

    Replies: @Opinionator

  67. @Opinionator
    @reiner Tor

    Jewish colonies in the West Bank grew by nearly 60% between 1992, right before Oslo, and 2000, when the second Palestinian uprising began. These stats may understate the true numbers as they appear to be drawn from Israeli government public data, which does not include "outposts" and may in any event may have a lowball bias.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2015/11/11/a-look-at-the-growth-of-israeli-settlements-over-the-years

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/22/map-the-spread-of-israeli-settlements-in-the-west-bank/?utm_term=.909933085c88

    And yes, the jewish conquest of Palestine and the oppression of its people were the chief motivation for 9/11, according to the 9/11 Commission, Al Qaeda's statements after the event, Bin Laden's speeches and writing in the years leading up to the event, and bios of mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna

    Remember, Americans weren’t permitted to read Osama’s “Letter to America”. Condoleezma insisted it might contain coded messages to his followers. The MSM repeated this claim without comment. A few of us simply read it in the Guardian, or elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    @Kyle McKenna

    That is where I read it, too. I don't recall it being specifically censored by the gov here though, or Rice having had to address it.

    What I do recall with bitter clarity is that the media's coverage of Al Qaeda communiques (there were several, in addition the the letter you mention) suppressed with remarkable consistency any part that explained why 9/11 was carried out or offered peace terms to the American people. Systematic almost.

  68. @Peter Akuleyev
    The mistake Americans make is assuming that Putin represents a response to Yeltsin, when Putin is simply a continuation of the same people who were behind Yeltsin. Yeltsin was a drunken fool whom various factions of the ex-Soviet elite found useful to maintain in power while they fought behind the scenes over who would actually rule Russia. Putin runs the winning team, which was mostly KGB and energy guys from Leningrad. Quite a lot of the Yeltsin team is still working with Putin, and doing quite well - Chubais, Aven, Fridman, and Roman Abramovich (who supposedly recommended Putin to Yeltsin as a potential successor).

    The idea that American advisors actually had any real say in Russian politics is kind of a joke. Russian elites are very smart people and never viewed the Harvard boys as anything more than useful idiots.

    Replies: @AP, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Russian elites are very smart people and never viewed the Harvard boys as anything more than useful idiots

    But that just CANNOT be true, because Harvard boys, and Lincoln Steffens, and investigative reporters like I.F. Stone, are never useful idiots. After all, Harvard grads are smarter than anybody on Planet Earth. Oh, wait,…

  69. @Cagey Beast
    Apparently this is not a parody account:

    https://twitter.com/NinaByzantina/status/808121958235860992

    https://twitter.com/TSHalalbe/status/808026123028299776

    Replies: @Blosky, @SFG, @Polymath

    Yudkowsky is actually quite a serious and accomplished person with a great deal of expertise in disingenuous trolling. The Harry Potter fanfic is tremendously entertaining and thought-provoking for a certain type of mind, and the Rationalist Sequences on the Less Wrong website ought to be a fundamental resource for everybody, but his main work is research in AI safety and encouragement of research in AI safety and he one of a handful of central figures there.

    His political and social ideas and inclinations aren’t particularly sensible, and his estimate of the consequences of a Trump Presidency was inordinately pessimistic, but not deludedly so, in which respect he did better than most Bay Area techie types.

  70. @Chrisnonymous
    @fnn

    Schindler's articles are heavy on accusations and conclusive statements, but light on details and specifics. He says a Kremlin disinformation machine had a widespread influence on the election. Which disinformation came from the Kremlin? Was Hillary actually holding lots of press conferences and large rallies throughout the campaign?

    Just as we had generals on both sides during the campaign, we now have IC insiders on both sides--saying the CIA has smoking guns and saying the CIA has squat. When I see it with my own eyes, I'll believe it.

    Another thing is that Schindler claims it would be terrible if we aligned with Russian goals. What are those and why so terrible? This goes back to Russia's bucking of the liberal globalist agenda--to what extent is anti-Russian agitating aimed at international peace and to what extent at allying with Pussy Riot?

    Replies: @dfordoom

    to what extent is anti-Russian agitating aimed at international peace and to what extent at allying with Pussy Riot?

    For SJWs it’s all about Pussy Riot. For the globalists pulling the strings of the SJWs it’s all about Russia not getting with globalist program. Those Russians are so evil they think they should be allowed to run their own country. Can you believe it?

  71. @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @eD

    If Whiskey met a decent woman willing to overlook his faults, focus on his virtues, and fall in love with him I'd wager he would abandon his sphincter-eyed view of women and become a rational human being.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    If Whiskey met a decent woman willing to overlook his faults, focus on his virtues, and fall in love with him I’d wager he would abandon his sphincter-eyed view of women and become a rational human being.

    The irony is that I wouldn’t have met, and certainly couldn’t have kept, the more than decent woman who every day focuses on my virtues, overlooks my faults, and stays in love with me if I hadn’t gone through that sphinter-eyed stage. It’s the only known cure for the anti-masculinity cultural programming that’s claimed many of what would be our best men.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    @Desiderius

    Can you elaborate on this? On your evolution and what you have discovered to be important,

    Replies: @Desiderius

  72. @Anon
    Yanks?

    Or

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9qYF9DZPdw

    One of the most prophetic songs:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxyjA-CaPYY

    Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon

    Jackson Browne’s last hurrah was Lawyers in Love. He had a few minor feats after like his “I’m Alive” (breakup from Daryl) album years later, but his stint as ‘philosopher for the common man’ had pretty much run its course by the mid-80s. His take on status seeking & petty materialism in the the early 80s was on target, but it’s ironic that the yupppies (“Lawyers”) he was critiquing were often his old peers who had ditched their one world idealism cause it was irreconcilable with the Soviet expansionism (esp Afghanistan in 1980), Iranian extremism or Pol Pot. He never really conceded that maybe the Republicans had a point. A 2nd irony that his McGovernite peers from the early 70s were many of the same who connived in the Clinton Admin, its looting of Russia, and in building up the transnational plutocracy. The nostalgic left (save maybe Susan Sarandon) still can’t be intellectually honest. Blind to the end I guess.

  73. @Desiderius
    @Opinionator


    The story is so vague and ambiguously sourced that it is hard to imagine the CIA taking offense at a skeptical reaction to it.
     
    The CIA taking offense is the whole point.

    Replies: @Opinionator

    How so?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Opinionator

    They're trying to turn the CIA against Trump.

    Replies: @Opinionator

  74. @Kyle McKenna
    @Opinionator

    Remember, Americans weren't permitted to read Osama's "Letter to America". Condoleezma insisted it might contain coded messages to his followers. The MSM repeated this claim without comment. A few of us simply read it in the Guardian, or elsewhere.

    Replies: @Opinionator

    That is where I read it, too. I don’t recall it being specifically censored by the gov here though, or Rice having had to address it.

    What I do recall with bitter clarity is that the media’s coverage of Al Qaeda communiques (there were several, in addition the the letter you mention) suppressed with remarkable consistency any part that explained why 9/11 was carried out or offered peace terms to the American people. Systematic almost.

  75. @Desiderius
    @Charles Erwin Wilson


    If Whiskey met a decent woman willing to overlook his faults, focus on his virtues, and fall in love with him I’d wager he would abandon his sphincter-eyed view of women and become a rational human being.
     
    The irony is that I wouldn't have met, and certainly couldn't have kept, the more than decent woman who every day focuses on my virtues, overlooks my faults, and stays in love with me if I hadn't gone through that sphinter-eyed stage. It's the only known cure for the anti-masculinity cultural programming that's claimed many of what would be our best men.

    Replies: @Opinionator

    Can you elaborate on this? On your evolution and what you have discovered to be important,

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Opinionator


    Can you elaborate on this? On your evolution and what you have discovered to be important,
     
    Men and women are different and attracted to different things. What I as a man find attractive in a woman is complimentary to but dissimilar from what a woman finds attractive in a man.

    I'd imagine one can get there without a Whiskey phase, but it worked for me.

    Replies: @Opinionator

  76. @Opinionator
    @Desiderius

    How so?

    Replies: @Desiderius

    They’re trying to turn the CIA against Trump.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    @Desiderius

    What would that accomplish?

    Replies: @Desiderius

  77. @Opinionator
    @Desiderius

    Can you elaborate on this? On your evolution and what you have discovered to be important,

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Can you elaborate on this? On your evolution and what you have discovered to be important,

    Men and women are different and attracted to different things. What I as a man find attractive in a woman is complimentary to but dissimilar from what a woman finds attractive in a man.

    I’d imagine one can get there without a Whiskey phase, but it worked for me.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    @Desiderius

    What did you discover, specifically, that women were attracted to?

    (If I may ask.)

    Replies: @Opinionator, @Desiderius

  78. @Desiderius
    @Opinionator


    Can you elaborate on this? On your evolution and what you have discovered to be important,
     
    Men and women are different and attracted to different things. What I as a man find attractive in a woman is complimentary to but dissimilar from what a woman finds attractive in a man.

    I'd imagine one can get there without a Whiskey phase, but it worked for me.

    Replies: @Opinionator

    What did you discover, specifically, that women were attracted to?

    (If I may ask.)

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    @Opinionator

    I'm asking not just for myself.

    , @Desiderius
    @Opinionator


    What did you discover, specifically, that women were attracted to?
     
    More useful was realizing what they weren't attracted to - that the Golden Rule/mirroring can be worse than useless in that context (hence the importance of recognizing difference).

    Google anti-game for some pointers.

    The basics - integrity, confidence, good grooming, fitness. Ultimately, though, they want some dominance*. You can't be spergy about it - playful helps - but it better be there on some level.

    * - the negative connotation this carries is part of that anti-masculine programming. Like anything worth doing, it can be done well or poorly.
  79. @Desiderius
    @Opinionator

    They're trying to turn the CIA against Trump.

    Replies: @Opinionator

    What would that accomplish?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Opinionator

    I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

  80. @Opinionator
    @Desiderius

    What did you discover, specifically, that women were attracted to?

    (If I may ask.)

    Replies: @Opinionator, @Desiderius

    I’m asking not just for myself.

  81. @Opinionator
    @Desiderius

    What would that accomplish?

    Replies: @Desiderius

    I’ll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

  82. @Opinionator
    @Desiderius

    What did you discover, specifically, that women were attracted to?

    (If I may ask.)

    Replies: @Opinionator, @Desiderius

    What did you discover, specifically, that women were attracted to?

    More useful was realizing what they weren’t attracted to – that the Golden Rule/mirroring can be worse than useless in that context (hence the importance of recognizing difference).

    Google anti-game for some pointers.

    The basics – integrity, confidence, good grooming, fitness. Ultimately, though, they want some dominance*. You can’t be spergy about it – playful helps – but it better be there on some level.

    * – the negative connotation this carries is part of that anti-masculine programming. Like anything worth doing, it can be done well or poorly.

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