Terman Middle School Ranked #1 in U.S.
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From some website called Niche.com:
I have no idea how valid the methodology is, but the #1 middle school in America did catch my eye.
#3 in the U.S. is David Starr Jordan M.S. in Palo Alto.
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Robert Weissberg said, “Bad Students, Not Bad Schools.” In the case of Terman Middle School, it’s “Good Students, Not Such a Good School”. The school merits almost no credit for the kids’ test scores.
My fellow conservatives tend to go off on teachers. I share their distaste for teacher unions, but at the end of the day, parents are responsible for the education of their children, whether through genetic heritage, inculcation, or some combination thereof. At the end of the day, children are mostly reflections of their parents.Replies: @Rod1963
No doubt built with magic bricks and mortar.
Better hurry up and change the name before all those people we’re keeping down discover the formula.
We’re talking about this only because a useless turd from Germany with a green card, married to a Jamaican, made a stink.
Don’t you mean Po’ Dead Black Baby Michael Brown Middle School?
I bet it’s not #1 in ‘diversity’ — and what else really matters?
https://twitter.com/False_Nobody/status/841805137089835008
Closer to truth, I think, is: bad parents, not bad schools.
My fellow conservatives tend to go off on teachers. I share their distaste for teacher unions, but at the end of the day, parents are responsible for the education of their children, whether through genetic heritage, inculcation, or some combination thereof. At the end of the day, children are mostly reflections of their parents.
Maybe if these so-called parents spent some time educating their children everyday instead of working OT for that new Mercedes or 3 week cruise in the Pacific they'd be better off. There is more to life than being a slave to Madison Avenue and Mastercard.
Yeah I know that's heretical, mom and dad taking time off to educate their kids instead outsourcing the rearing of their children to complete strangers they know nothing about. But parents teaching their kids does work, I've seen fathers in the trades take their teenage son along on work calls for years. This includes construction, heating and A/C and plumbing. I've seen 14 year olds handle $100k back hoes just fine(under parental supervision of course).
Home schoolers do it all the time as well.
Another approach would be to take a page out of the Jewish community and others and found their own local private schools. Sure they'll have to give up time and income, but they could build something that lasts and helps the community instead of chasing some so-called elite school that's only elite because it attracted smart parents who had smart kids. This isn't my idea but another poster's whose name I forgot. But it should be seriously considered.Replies: @Ganderson, @AP, @Thea, @Lovernios X, @Farenheit, @Twinkie
This is the Father of Silicon Valley:
Terman cannot be the best middle school in America until it is renamed The Harriet Hidden Figures Tubman Twenty Dollar Bill Mountain Dew Elizondo Academy Yo!
My fellow conservatives tend to go off on teachers. I share their distaste for teacher unions, but at the end of the day, parents are responsible for the education of their children, whether through genetic heritage, inculcation, or some combination thereof. At the end of the day, children are mostly reflections of their parents.Replies: @Rod1963
Spot on, I find it quite amusing that white parents will literally bankrupt themselves to find a “:good school” for their kids and yet abdicate any personal role in their children’s education outside of the perfunctory parent teacher meetings.
Maybe if these so-called parents spent some time educating their children everyday instead of working OT for that new Mercedes or 3 week cruise in the Pacific they’d be better off. There is more to life than being a slave to Madison Avenue and Mastercard.
Yeah I know that’s heretical, mom and dad taking time off to educate their kids instead outsourcing the rearing of their children to complete strangers they know nothing about. But parents teaching their kids does work, I’ve seen fathers in the trades take their teenage son along on work calls for years. This includes construction, heating and A/C and plumbing. I’ve seen 14 year olds handle $100k back hoes just fine(under parental supervision of course).
Home schoolers do it all the time as well.
Another approach would be to take a page out of the Jewish community and others and found their own local private schools. Sure they’ll have to give up time and income, but they could build something that lasts and helps the community instead of chasing some so-called elite school that’s only elite because it attracted smart parents who had smart kids. This isn’t my idea but another poster’s whose name I forgot. But it should be seriously considered.
Also I think there's a line between active parental involvement and helicoptering. Not sure where it is- I'd guess most teachers in schools like Terman would welcome less parental involvement.
However they do have very high expectations of their children and don't accept excuses. Grades worse than As are generally unacceptable, but the kids are expected to figure things out on their own. This may be a lot of pressure by "spoiled" western standards but the kids seem to do fine. It helps that the Eastern Europeans choose areas with the best schools (even off the boaters will find those rare cheaper apartments in such areas).
Public schools are a part of our cultural heritage, and very expensive. They should be protected & defended or eradicated but not handed over as the the spoils of war.
Yes, additional education should go on in the home. And even more important church.
Public schools created me. If I hadn't gone to school in the 49th ranked state in a district with a high minority population I wouldn't see what was really happening. I lived in a lily white suburb of Pittsburgh my first few years of grammar school and believed we were all the same, "racism" was bad etc. A move to Florida changed that.Replies: @stillCARealist
Good times, good times. I guess it does depend on the parents.
Tiger parenting (including involvement in school fundraising) and good student genes result in good teachers wanting to work in these schools. Classic virtuous cycle.
Culture and diversity accounts for 10% of the ranking. Someone at Terman Middle School needs to explain these state math scores:
2016 California State Math Exam
Asian: 14% Met Standard, 79% Exceeded
Black: 9% Met Standard, 18% Exceeded
Hispanic: 23% Met Standard, 19% Exceeded
White: 23% Met Standard, 60% Exceeded
LINK
The other levels were:
Standard Nearly Met: Level 2 - 27%
Standard Not Met: Level 1 - 45%
Here's a comparison by ethnicity of CA, PAUSD, and Terman MS
Terman blacks do worse than the rest of PAUSD and are surprisingly comparable to CA as a whole except for having more of the highest achievers. Contrast this with whites where Terman looks much more like PAUSD than CA. Hispanics are kind of in between.
P.S. Worth reiterating that comments are all from looking at math scores.Replies: @res, @Triumph104
Somebody please propose Trayvon Martin Memorial High School.
Click students. More Hispanic than I would have thought:
https://www.schooldigger.com/go/CA/schools/2961011454/school.aspx
I know who Lewis Terman was but Terman’s was the name of a liquor store with an adjacent seedy bar in the town I grew up in and the name “Terman” will always be associated with that in my mind.
Well, they must be doing something right. Let’s just send all our low achieving black students to Terman middle school. The Gap will be solved by about next Tuesday. After that we can send all the hispanic students there too.
Maybe if these so-called parents spent some time educating their children everyday instead of working OT for that new Mercedes or 3 week cruise in the Pacific they'd be better off. There is more to life than being a slave to Madison Avenue and Mastercard.
Yeah I know that's heretical, mom and dad taking time off to educate their kids instead outsourcing the rearing of their children to complete strangers they know nothing about. But parents teaching their kids does work, I've seen fathers in the trades take their teenage son along on work calls for years. This includes construction, heating and A/C and plumbing. I've seen 14 year olds handle $100k back hoes just fine(under parental supervision of course).
Home schoolers do it all the time as well.
Another approach would be to take a page out of the Jewish community and others and found their own local private schools. Sure they'll have to give up time and income, but they could build something that lasts and helps the community instead of chasing some so-called elite school that's only elite because it attracted smart parents who had smart kids. This isn't my idea but another poster's whose name I forgot. But it should be seriously considered.Replies: @Ganderson, @AP, @Thea, @Lovernios X, @Farenheit, @Twinkie
I think it was the Ed Realist who observed that the vast majority of teachers are competent – that’s been my observation too, after 30 years in both public and private schools. I belong to my union, not because I wish to belong to the Mass Teachers’ Association, or the NEA, but because I believe that our association can be a force for good in my district. Whether it actually is or not…
Also I think there’s a line between active parental involvement and helicoptering. Not sure where it is- I’d guess most teachers in schools like Terman would welcome less parental involvement.
Asian: 14% Met Standard, 79% Exceeded
Black: 9% Met Standard, 18% Exceeded
Hispanic: 23% Met Standard, 19% Exceeded
White: 23% Met Standard, 60% ExceededLINKReplies: @Ganderson, @res
RACISM!
The top 3 middle schools are from Palo Alto.
Maybe if these so-called parents spent some time educating their children everyday instead of working OT for that new Mercedes or 3 week cruise in the Pacific they'd be better off. There is more to life than being a slave to Madison Avenue and Mastercard.
Yeah I know that's heretical, mom and dad taking time off to educate their kids instead outsourcing the rearing of their children to complete strangers they know nothing about. But parents teaching their kids does work, I've seen fathers in the trades take their teenage son along on work calls for years. This includes construction, heating and A/C and plumbing. I've seen 14 year olds handle $100k back hoes just fine(under parental supervision of course).
Home schoolers do it all the time as well.
Another approach would be to take a page out of the Jewish community and others and found their own local private schools. Sure they'll have to give up time and income, but they could build something that lasts and helps the community instead of chasing some so-called elite school that's only elite because it attracted smart parents who had smart kids. This isn't my idea but another poster's whose name I forgot. But it should be seriously considered.Replies: @Ganderson, @AP, @Thea, @Lovernios X, @Farenheit, @Twinkie
Interesting approach. Among the upper middle class Eastern Europeans and post-Soviets I know – kids tend to do well in school but the parents do not educate their children, because doing so is strongly viewed as the teacher’s, not parent’s, role (they may help answer a question on occasion, but the approach is basically hands-off, not activist).
However they do have very high expectations of their children and don’t accept excuses. Grades worse than As are generally unacceptable, but the kids are expected to figure things out on their own. This may be a lot of pressure by “spoiled” western standards but the kids seem to do fine. It helps that the Eastern Europeans choose areas with the best schools (even off the boaters will find those rare cheaper apartments in such areas).
Maybe if these so-called parents spent some time educating their children everyday instead of working OT for that new Mercedes or 3 week cruise in the Pacific they'd be better off. There is more to life than being a slave to Madison Avenue and Mastercard.
Yeah I know that's heretical, mom and dad taking time off to educate their kids instead outsourcing the rearing of their children to complete strangers they know nothing about. But parents teaching their kids does work, I've seen fathers in the trades take their teenage son along on work calls for years. This includes construction, heating and A/C and plumbing. I've seen 14 year olds handle $100k back hoes just fine(under parental supervision of course).
Home schoolers do it all the time as well.
Another approach would be to take a page out of the Jewish community and others and found their own local private schools. Sure they'll have to give up time and income, but they could build something that lasts and helps the community instead of chasing some so-called elite school that's only elite because it attracted smart parents who had smart kids. This isn't my idea but another poster's whose name I forgot. But it should be seriously considered.Replies: @Ganderson, @AP, @Thea, @Lovernios X, @Farenheit, @Twinkie
*stands on soapbox* please forgive me but….
Public schools are a part of our cultural heritage, and very expensive. They should be protected & defended or eradicated but not handed over as the the spoils of war.
Yes, additional education should go on in the home. And even more important church.
Public schools created me. If I hadn’t gone to school in the 49th ranked state in a district with a high minority population I wouldn’t see what was really happening. I lived in a lily white suburb of Pittsburgh my first few years of grammar school and believed we were all the same, “racism” was bad etc. A move to Florida changed that.
Asian: 14% Met Standard, 79% Exceeded
Black: 9% Met Standard, 18% Exceeded
Hispanic: 23% Met Standard, 19% Exceeded
White: 23% Met Standard, 60% ExceededLINKReplies: @Ganderson, @res
The black distribution seems strange to me (somewhat bimodal). Is Terman MS serving dramatically different populations of blacks at the same time? (e.g. children of Stanford professors or techies/professionals as well as the fringes of East Palo Alto?)
The other levels were:
Standard Nearly Met: Level 2 – 27%
Standard Not Met: Level 1 – 45%
Here’s a comparison by ethnicity of CA, PAUSD, and Terman MS
Terman blacks do worse than the rest of PAUSD and are surprisingly comparable to CA as a whole except for having more of the highest achievers. Contrast this with whites where Terman looks much more like PAUSD than CA. Hispanics are kind of in between.
P.S. Worth reiterating that comments are all from looking at math scores.
Does anyone have good data on this?
A quick look at http://www.nber.org/papers/w19243.pdf for K-7 only showed about a 0.1SD difference over time.
This 2009 NCES detailed statistical analysis for grades 4 and 8 supports my statement for math, but reading appears to be the opposite (pages 9 and 29): http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED505903.pdf
In any case, the effect looks to be less than I had thought.
P.S. It would be useful to limit the grades compared to eliminate this effect, but:
1. Terman black results are not available by individual grade (only all 6-8).
2. The comparison tool only supports limiting by individual grade, not by a grade range.Replies: @Triumph104
Jordan MS: 11% Met Standard, 21% Exceeded
Stanford MS: 16% Met Standard, 37% Exceeded
Terman MS: 9% Met Standard, 18% ExceededComparison of the three PAUSD middle schoolsThere were fewer than 10 economically disadvantaged black math test takers at each of the three middle schools, so no data, and only Jordan and Stanford had more than 10 not economically disadvantaged black math test takers, 13 and 11 respectively.Not Economically Disadvantaged Black Math Test Takers
Jordan MS: 15% Met Standard, 31% Exceeded
Stanford MS: 18% Met Standard, 55% ExceededI prefer to just look at the results of middle schoolers since the latest international TIMSS exam showed that US black 8th graders did not test as strongly against same age international peers as US black 4th graders did, suggesting their rate of learning new math material may decrease after the elementary school years. Also, there were not enough black 11th graders in the two PAUSD high schools to provide any data.Replies: @res, @Triumph104
My sister went here briefly. The gym teacher was arrested for nailing students.
The other levels were:
Standard Nearly Met: Level 2 - 27%
Standard Not Met: Level 1 - 45%
Here's a comparison by ethnicity of CA, PAUSD, and Terman MS
Terman blacks do worse than the rest of PAUSD and are surprisingly comparable to CA as a whole except for having more of the highest achievers. Contrast this with whites where Terman looks much more like PAUSD than CA. Hispanics are kind of in between.
P.S. Worth reiterating that comments are all from looking at math scores.Replies: @res, @Triumph104
I thought about this some more and a possible (partial) explanation is that the tests are done in grades 3-8 and 11. Terman MS is grades 6-8. My understanding is that the B-W test score gap increases with age which would adversely affect Terman’s numbers in the comparison.
Does anyone have good data on this?
A quick look at http://www.nber.org/papers/w19243.pdf for K-7 only showed about a 0.1SD difference over time.
This 2009 NCES detailed statistical analysis for grades 4 and 8 supports my statement for math, but reading appears to be the opposite (pages 9 and 29): http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED505903.pdf
In any case, the effect looks to be less than I had thought.
P.S. It would be useful to limit the grades compared to eliminate this effect, but:
1. Terman black results are not available by individual grade (only all 6-8).
2. The comparison tool only supports limiting by individual grade, not by a grade range.
https://jaypgreene.com/2016/02/15/dcps-black-students-need-six-years-to-reach-where-dcps-white-students-stood-in-4th-grade/On the 2015 TIMSS exam, black fourth graders scored better in math than New Zealand and France, but black 8th graders scored below Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates and 31 points below New Zealand. France did not take the 8th grade exam.
https://nces.ed.gov/timss/timss2015/On the 12th grade NAEP exam the black children of college graduates score the same in reading and math as the Hispanic children of high school dropouts which suggests a further slowing in black learning rate. https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/reading_math_g12_2013/#/group-resultsA study showed that when parents (low-income?) helped their young children with homework black children showed no benefit, Hispanic some, and whites twice as much as Hispanics. http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/gecc_final.pdfIn Oregon, the Kindergarten Assessment showed blacks slightly ahead of Hispanics in both number recognition/simple arithmetic and recognizing letters/letter sounds, and Native Americans in recognizing letters/letter sounds. Of course blacks soon permanentally test below these two groups.
http://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-kindergarten-assessment-persistent-achievement-gaps/As an aside, Portland has a barely majority black high school that tests at the Neanderthal level. Only 25% of the class of 2010 took the SAT and they scored 369 reading and 350 math. I don't know if this can be explained by the migration pattern to Oregon or if they have lead in their water. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/09/sat_scores_drop_among_portland_1.htmlReplies: @res, @Desiderius
Public schools are a part of our cultural heritage, and very expensive. They should be protected & defended or eradicated but not handed over as the the spoils of war.
Yes, additional education should go on in the home. And even more important church.
Public schools created me. If I hadn't gone to school in the 49th ranked state in a district with a high minority population I wouldn't see what was really happening. I lived in a lily white suburb of Pittsburgh my first few years of grammar school and believed we were all the same, "racism" was bad etc. A move to Florida changed that.Replies: @stillCARealist
Great comeback! Reminds me of my mom who went to an English boarding school in the late 40’s. After that experience she knew she would never be an Anglican and would always loathe the establishment. She and my dad moved into low-church Goldwater commie-hating in the 60’s and put us kids in Christian schools. Now her grandkids are all homeschooled. How much further to the right can we go?
The other levels were:
Standard Nearly Met: Level 2 - 27%
Standard Not Met: Level 1 - 45%
Here's a comparison by ethnicity of CA, PAUSD, and Terman MS
Terman blacks do worse than the rest of PAUSD and are surprisingly comparable to CA as a whole except for having more of the highest achievers. Contrast this with whites where Terman looks much more like PAUSD than CA. Hispanics are kind of in between.
P.S. Worth reiterating that comments are all from looking at math scores.Replies: @res, @Triumph104
The problem (or the answer) may be the small sample size. There were only 11 black math test takers at Terman MS. PAUSD has two other middle schools, David Starr Jordan MS and Jane Lathrop Stanford MS, where each had 19 black math test takers.
Black Math Test Takers
Jordan MS: 11% Met Standard, 21% Exceeded
Stanford MS: 16% Met Standard, 37% Exceeded
Terman MS: 9% Met Standard, 18% Exceeded
Comparison of the three PAUSD middle schools
There were fewer than 10 economically disadvantaged black math test takers at each of the three middle schools, so no data, and only Jordan and Stanford had more than 10 not economically disadvantaged black math test takers, 13 and 11 respectively.
Not Economically Disadvantaged Black Math Test Takers
Jordan MS: 15% Met Standard, 31% Exceeded
Stanford MS: 18% Met Standard, 55% Exceeded
I prefer to just look at the results of middle schoolers since the latest international TIMSS exam showed that US black 8th graders did not test as strongly against same age international peers as US black 4th graders did, suggesting their rate of learning new math material may decrease after the elementary school years. Also, there were not enough black 11th graders in the two PAUSD high schools to provide any data.
https://twitter.com/False_Nobody/status/841805137089835008Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist
Recently Cold War-era documents reveal the Secret Soviet Sassy Sista Space Scientist Supply from the 1950’s.
Jordan MS: 11% Met Standard, 21% Exceeded
Stanford MS: 16% Met Standard, 37% Exceeded
Terman MS: 9% Met Standard, 18% ExceededComparison of the three PAUSD middle schoolsThere were fewer than 10 economically disadvantaged black math test takers at each of the three middle schools, so no data, and only Jordan and Stanford had more than 10 not economically disadvantaged black math test takers, 13 and 11 respectively.Not Economically Disadvantaged Black Math Test Takers
Jordan MS: 15% Met Standard, 31% Exceeded
Stanford MS: 18% Met Standard, 55% ExceededI prefer to just look at the results of middle schoolers since the latest international TIMSS exam showed that US black 8th graders did not test as strongly against same age international peers as US black 4th graders did, suggesting their rate of learning new math material may decrease after the elementary school years. Also, there were not enough black 11th graders in the two PAUSD high schools to provide any data.Replies: @res, @Triumph104
Thanks for the illuminating additional details and analysis. Agreed about small sample size being an important issue. Your last paragraph speaks to another comment of mine which is still in moderation. I’d appreciate any additional thoughts you have to offer.
Jordan MS: 11% Met Standard, 21% Exceeded
Stanford MS: 16% Met Standard, 37% Exceeded
Terman MS: 9% Met Standard, 18% ExceededComparison of the three PAUSD middle schoolsThere were fewer than 10 economically disadvantaged black math test takers at each of the three middle schools, so no data, and only Jordan and Stanford had more than 10 not economically disadvantaged black math test takers, 13 and 11 respectively.Not Economically Disadvantaged Black Math Test Takers
Jordan MS: 15% Met Standard, 31% Exceeded
Stanford MS: 18% Met Standard, 55% ExceededI prefer to just look at the results of middle schoolers since the latest international TIMSS exam showed that US black 8th graders did not test as strongly against same age international peers as US black 4th graders did, suggesting their rate of learning new math material may decrease after the elementary school years. Also, there were not enough black 11th graders in the two PAUSD high schools to provide any data.Replies: @res, @Triumph104
Steve reported that 14 black test takers outperformed their white classmates at Carpenter Community Charter in Studio City, CA on the 2015 California state English exam, 86% to 75%. In math, 78% of blacks were proficient or advanced compared to 63% of whites. LINK
In 2016, while the 19 black test takers still performed well, they underperformed their white classmates. In English, 62% of blacks and 81% of whites were proficient or advanced and in math 66% of blacks and 74% of whites were. LINK
Since Carpenter is a public charter school, the families enrolled are self-selected. Niche ranks Carpenter as 15,666 out of 48,625 elementary schools in the nation.
Maybe if these so-called parents spent some time educating their children everyday instead of working OT for that new Mercedes or 3 week cruise in the Pacific they'd be better off. There is more to life than being a slave to Madison Avenue and Mastercard.
Yeah I know that's heretical, mom and dad taking time off to educate their kids instead outsourcing the rearing of their children to complete strangers they know nothing about. But parents teaching their kids does work, I've seen fathers in the trades take their teenage son along on work calls for years. This includes construction, heating and A/C and plumbing. I've seen 14 year olds handle $100k back hoes just fine(under parental supervision of course).
Home schoolers do it all the time as well.
Another approach would be to take a page out of the Jewish community and others and found their own local private schools. Sure they'll have to give up time and income, but they could build something that lasts and helps the community instead of chasing some so-called elite school that's only elite because it attracted smart parents who had smart kids. This isn't my idea but another poster's whose name I forgot. But it should be seriously considered.Replies: @Ganderson, @AP, @Thea, @Lovernios X, @Farenheit, @Twinkie
I know what you mean. I have fond memories of my father taking me along to learn how to pop ignitions and siphon gas. Then we’d stop off at his favorite watering hole for a few quick ones.
Good times, good times. I guess it does depend on the parents.
Maybe if these so-called parents spent some time educating their children everyday instead of working OT for that new Mercedes or 3 week cruise in the Pacific they'd be better off. There is more to life than being a slave to Madison Avenue and Mastercard.
Yeah I know that's heretical, mom and dad taking time off to educate their kids instead outsourcing the rearing of their children to complete strangers they know nothing about. But parents teaching their kids does work, I've seen fathers in the trades take their teenage son along on work calls for years. This includes construction, heating and A/C and plumbing. I've seen 14 year olds handle $100k back hoes just fine(under parental supervision of course).
Home schoolers do it all the time as well.
Another approach would be to take a page out of the Jewish community and others and found their own local private schools. Sure they'll have to give up time and income, but they could build something that lasts and helps the community instead of chasing some so-called elite school that's only elite because it attracted smart parents who had smart kids. This isn't my idea but another poster's whose name I forgot. But it should be seriously considered.Replies: @Ganderson, @AP, @Thea, @Lovernios X, @Farenheit, @Twinkie
As someone with five brothers and sisters, who span the length and breadth of the bell curve, I can tell you parenting doesn’t play as much importance as we’d like to think. You get “Magic DNA” or “Tragic DNA” and mostly something in-between….wish it were some other-way, but it’s not..
Clyde, Almost perfect, just add…”Academy of Excellence.” Most of the failing schools around here are Schools of Excellence or Early Middle College, whatever that means.
The Terman and Jordan schools are being renamed because of their namesakes’ promotion of eugenics.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/12/15/palo-alto-committee-backs-jordan-terman-school-rename/
http://paloaltoonline.com/news/2017/03/10/editorial-renaming-schools
Peri, Cool and they can call their teams the Skittles.
Maybe if these so-called parents spent some time educating their children everyday instead of working OT for that new Mercedes or 3 week cruise in the Pacific they'd be better off. There is more to life than being a slave to Madison Avenue and Mastercard.
Yeah I know that's heretical, mom and dad taking time off to educate their kids instead outsourcing the rearing of their children to complete strangers they know nothing about. But parents teaching their kids does work, I've seen fathers in the trades take their teenage son along on work calls for years. This includes construction, heating and A/C and plumbing. I've seen 14 year olds handle $100k back hoes just fine(under parental supervision of course).
Home schoolers do it all the time as well.
Another approach would be to take a page out of the Jewish community and others and found their own local private schools. Sure they'll have to give up time and income, but they could build something that lasts and helps the community instead of chasing some so-called elite school that's only elite because it attracted smart parents who had smart kids. This isn't my idea but another poster's whose name I forgot. But it should be seriously considered.Replies: @Ganderson, @AP, @Thea, @Lovernios X, @Farenheit, @Twinkie
My wife and I homeschool.
How about renaming Terman to — The Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Academy of Excellences ?
Does anyone have good data on this?
A quick look at http://www.nber.org/papers/w19243.pdf for K-7 only showed about a 0.1SD difference over time.
This 2009 NCES detailed statistical analysis for grades 4 and 8 supports my statement for math, but reading appears to be the opposite (pages 9 and 29): http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED505903.pdf
In any case, the effect looks to be less than I had thought.
P.S. It would be useful to limit the grades compared to eliminate this effect, but:
1. Terman black results are not available by individual grade (only all 6-8).
2. The comparison tool only supports limiting by individual grade, not by a grade range.Replies: @Triumph104
I came to the conclusion that the black/white test score gap increases around puberty through casual observation. I have not seen any studies that confirm my opinion.
In gentrified Washington DC, white 8th graders test six years ahead of black 8th graders. Obviously when they started kindergarten the white kids were not six years ahead of the black kids. While I can believe that DC’s black fourth graders test at a second grade level, I seriously doubt the white fourth graders test six years ahead at an eighth grade level. Thus I concluded the six year gap showed up in middle school suggesting a slowing in the rate of learning.
https://jaypgreene.com/2016/02/15/dcps-black-students-need-six-years-to-reach-where-dcps-white-students-stood-in-4th-grade/
On the 2015 TIMSS exam, black fourth graders scored better in math than New Zealand and France, but black 8th graders scored below Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates and 31 points below New Zealand. France did not take the 8th grade exam.
https://nces.ed.gov/timss/timss2015/
On the 12th grade NAEP exam the black children of college graduates score the same in reading and math as the Hispanic children of high school dropouts which suggests a further slowing in black learning rate. https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/reading_math_g12_2013/#/group-results
A study showed that when parents (low-income?) helped their young children with homework black children showed no benefit, Hispanic some, and whites twice as much as Hispanics. http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/gecc_final.pdf
In Oregon, the Kindergarten Assessment showed blacks slightly ahead of Hispanics in both number recognition/simple arithmetic and recognizing letters/letter sounds, and Native Americans in recognizing letters/letter sounds. Of course blacks soon permanentally test below these two groups.
http://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-kindergarten-assessment-persistent-achievement-gaps/
As an aside, Portland has a barely majority black high school that tests at the Neanderthal level. Only 25% of the class of 2010 took the SAT and they scored 369 reading and 350 math. I don’t know if this can be explained by the migration pattern to Oregon or if they have lead in their water. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/09/sat_scores_drop_among_portland_1.html
Regarding the first link and "Thus I concluded the six year gap showed up in middle school suggesting a slowing in the rate of learning." I have trouble interpreting the graphs. They show a constant gap between grades 4 and 8, but your argument is compelling. We really need yearly data to attempt to understand the behavior (e.g. linearity?) over time.
I'm having trouble pulling out the relevant data for TIMMS 2015 (there are many links there and I'm not finding the titles indicate the race results clearly). Your extract sounds compelling, but was there a similar (even if lesser) effect for whites?
Those NAEP results were depressing. White children of college educated parents (second plot) average below proficient?! And for the similar group of blacks not even averaging basic?! The relative variation by parental education (whites substantial, blacks minimal) surprised me.
Regarding Portland schools, the combination of a low test taking rate and terrible scores is mind boggling. I think it's unfair to ascribe all of that to race because I doubt Jefferson is getting the best of any group. I'm guessing there are a host of explanations in play.Replies: @Triumph104
Clyde, Yo bro you B 2 funny.
https://jaypgreene.com/2016/02/15/dcps-black-students-need-six-years-to-reach-where-dcps-white-students-stood-in-4th-grade/On the 2015 TIMSS exam, black fourth graders scored better in math than New Zealand and France, but black 8th graders scored below Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates and 31 points below New Zealand. France did not take the 8th grade exam.
https://nces.ed.gov/timss/timss2015/On the 12th grade NAEP exam the black children of college graduates score the same in reading and math as the Hispanic children of high school dropouts which suggests a further slowing in black learning rate. https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/reading_math_g12_2013/#/group-resultsA study showed that when parents (low-income?) helped their young children with homework black children showed no benefit, Hispanic some, and whites twice as much as Hispanics. http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/gecc_final.pdfIn Oregon, the Kindergarten Assessment showed blacks slightly ahead of Hispanics in both number recognition/simple arithmetic and recognizing letters/letter sounds, and Native Americans in recognizing letters/letter sounds. Of course blacks soon permanentally test below these two groups.
http://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-kindergarten-assessment-persistent-achievement-gaps/As an aside, Portland has a barely majority black high school that tests at the Neanderthal level. Only 25% of the class of 2010 took the SAT and they scored 369 reading and 350 math. I don't know if this can be explained by the migration pattern to Oregon or if they have lead in their water. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/09/sat_scores_drop_among_portland_1.htmlReplies: @res, @Desiderius
Thanks for all of the information!
Regarding the first link and “Thus I concluded the six year gap showed up in middle school suggesting a slowing in the rate of learning.” I have trouble interpreting the graphs. They show a constant gap between grades 4 and 8, but your argument is compelling. We really need yearly data to attempt to understand the behavior (e.g. linearity?) over time.
I’m having trouble pulling out the relevant data for TIMMS 2015 (there are many links there and I’m not finding the titles indicate the race results clearly). Your extract sounds compelling, but was there a similar (even if lesser) effect for whites?
Those NAEP results were depressing. White children of college educated parents (second plot) average below proficient?! And for the similar group of blacks not even averaging basic?! The relative variation by parental education (whites substantial, blacks minimal) surprised me.
Regarding Portland schools, the combination of a low test taking rate and terrible scores is mind boggling. I think it’s unfair to ascribe all of that to race because I doubt Jefferson is getting the best of any group. I’m guessing there are a host of explanations in play.
years behind white DC 8th graders, then who am I to disagree? I just reached the conclusion that the six-year gap took place after the 4th grade.2015 TIMSS MATH
Average scores by country
Average US scores by race/ethnicityIn the TIMSS math exam, US white 4th graders scored higher than all of the majority-white countries except Northern Ireland and the Russian Federation. US white 8th graders scored higher than all majority-white countries including the Russian Federation. Northern Ireland did not take the 8th grade exam."Those NAEP results were depressing." I didn't even look at proficiency levels. I only look at test results to measure performance between and within groups."I think it’s unfair to ascribe all of that to race because I doubt Jefferson is getting the best of any group." I wouldn't be surprised if most of the kids who took the SAT were white or Hispanic. Jefferson's SAT scores are far below the national average for blacks which is about 430 per section. Something nefarious is going on, not just at the high school but at the feeder schools and it should have been investigated. It is as if the students had not been taught anything since elementary school. I never see scores that low except for maybe alternative schools or adult education
programs.
https://jaypgreene.com/2016/02/15/dcps-black-students-need-six-years-to-reach-where-dcps-white-students-stood-in-4th-grade/On the 2015 TIMSS exam, black fourth graders scored better in math than New Zealand and France, but black 8th graders scored below Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates and 31 points below New Zealand. France did not take the 8th grade exam.
https://nces.ed.gov/timss/timss2015/On the 12th grade NAEP exam the black children of college graduates score the same in reading and math as the Hispanic children of high school dropouts which suggests a further slowing in black learning rate. https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/reading_math_g12_2013/#/group-resultsA study showed that when parents (low-income?) helped their young children with homework black children showed no benefit, Hispanic some, and whites twice as much as Hispanics. http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/gecc_final.pdfIn Oregon, the Kindergarten Assessment showed blacks slightly ahead of Hispanics in both number recognition/simple arithmetic and recognizing letters/letter sounds, and Native Americans in recognizing letters/letter sounds. Of course blacks soon permanentally test below these two groups.
http://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-kindergarten-assessment-persistent-achievement-gaps/As an aside, Portland has a barely majority black high school that tests at the Neanderthal level. Only 25% of the class of 2010 took the SAT and they scored 369 reading and 350 math. I don't know if this can be explained by the migration pattern to Oregon or if they have lead in their water. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/09/sat_scores_drop_among_portland_1.htmlReplies: @res, @Desiderius
I’ve taught (math) in an all-black high school. I found that students would often attempt to disrupt class in order to save face if something came up they didn’t understand. There were many students with decent enough intelligence (80-100 IQ) who nonetheless had massive deficits in their learning (simple addition, etc…). What this suggests is that they had a teacher along the way who couldn’t manage the disruptions, so they missed out on that basic building block, which prevented their learning concepts predicated on that block, which you have a lot of in math.
It’s a vicious cycle.
When I moved to Texas I was put in 6th grade remedial classes because of my deficits. Thankfully I was unaware of it at the time. By the end of seventh grade, I believe, I was inducted into the National Junior Honor Society.Replies: @res, @Desiderius
I take politics seriously….. but comedians suck these days so I am here to get some laughs and try to provide some if I can.
Regarding the first link and "Thus I concluded the six year gap showed up in middle school suggesting a slowing in the rate of learning." I have trouble interpreting the graphs. They show a constant gap between grades 4 and 8, but your argument is compelling. We really need yearly data to attempt to understand the behavior (e.g. linearity?) over time.
I'm having trouble pulling out the relevant data for TIMMS 2015 (there are many links there and I'm not finding the titles indicate the race results clearly). Your extract sounds compelling, but was there a similar (even if lesser) effect for whites?
Those NAEP results were depressing. White children of college educated parents (second plot) average below proficient?! And for the similar group of blacks not even averaging basic?! The relative variation by parental education (whites substantial, blacks minimal) surprised me.
Regarding Portland schools, the combination of a low test taking rate and terrible scores is mind boggling. I think it's unfair to ascribe all of that to race because I doubt Jefferson is getting the best of any group. I'm guessing there are a host of explanations in play.Replies: @Triumph104
“I have trouble interpreting the graphs. They show a constant gap between grades 4 and 8, but your argument is compelling.” I did not use the graphs. I was even going to argue with the blogger because if the graphs were correct, then there would be a six-year gap between DC black and white 4th graders which is virtually impossible. However, reading about education is only a hobby of mine and the blogger has a PhD and works in education policy, but more importantly Elizabeth Davis, President of the Washington Teachers’ Union, showed up in the comment section and seemingly agreed with the blogger. If those two say that black DC 8th graders are six
years behind white DC 8th graders, then who am I to disagree? I just reached the conclusion that the six-year gap took place after the 4th grade.
2015 TIMSS MATH
Average scores by country
Average US scores by race/ethnicity
In the TIMSS math exam, US white 4th graders scored higher than all of the majority-white countries except Northern Ireland and the Russian Federation. US white 8th graders scored higher than all majority-white countries including the Russian Federation. Northern Ireland did not take the 8th grade exam.
“Those NAEP results were depressing.” I didn’t even look at proficiency levels. I only look at test results to measure performance between and within groups.
“I think it’s unfair to ascribe all of that to race because I doubt Jefferson is getting the best of any group.” I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the kids who took the SAT were white or Hispanic. Jefferson’s SAT scores are far below the national average for blacks which is about 430 per section. Something nefarious is going on, not just at the high school but at the feeder schools and it should have been investigated. It is as if the students had not been taught anything since elementary school. I never see scores that low except for maybe alternative schools or adult education
programs.
I agree completely. I’m black and my father was in the military and I was literally in a different school every year from kindergarten until 6th grade. In the 1970s I spent two years at a mostly black elementary school in the deep south with incompetent teachers. Brutal corporal punishment was used so the kids behaved, but nothing was taught. Today, the average ACT score at the high school is 14.
When I moved to Texas I was put in 6th grade remedial classes because of my deficits. Thankfully I was unaware of it at the time. By the end of seventh grade, I believe, I was inducted into the National Junior Honor Society.
And from another school info website, http://public-schools.startclass.com we learn:
Terman is 38.4% white, 12.2% Hispanic, 39.1% Asian, 1.7% black, 8.3% multiracial (probably white/asian or white/hispanic mixed), 0.4% PI.
89% of students exceeded state science, 84% exceeded state English, and 81% exceeded state math standards.
Great school for some, but even here where they must have spectacular teachers (why else could the kids score so well?), but the teachers must all be racist, because only 18% of the black students exceeded state standards for math, and only 9% of blacks exceeded state standards for English.
They must be a racist school, they list disciplinary rates for Asians, Hispanics, whites, but not blacks.
When I moved to Texas I was put in 6th grade remedial classes because of my deficits. Thankfully I was unaware of it at the time. By the end of seventh grade, I believe, I was inducted into the National Junior Honor Society.Replies: @res, @Desiderius
Any lessons learned that you think might help people with underlying ability replicate your positive results? Did Texas do something particularly well?
Texas does that well.
Unfortunately, children are at the mercy of their parents and the public school system. Many hard working students graduate high school without anyone teaching them how to write a coherent paragraph. I would advise kids to read a lot and if they are interested in a particular subject to teach themselves, including AP courses.
I encourage parents to homeschool. If that is not an option, send children to a functional elementary school, ask them what their interests are career and hobby-wise, and if possible send them to a middle school or high school that caters to those interests. Select a high school with the highest SAT average possible so they can interact with reasonably intelligent people who have goals in life.
Spend money and time on studying for the SAT or ACT. High scores can lead to scholarships.
Pick a college that actually graduates people like you (race, income, SAT/ACT scores) and in your first choice of major. Pick a college that will accept your AP credits so you can graduate on time or early.
The most important factor I’ve seen in black performance is proximity to confident whites.
Texas does that well.
When I moved to Texas I was put in 6th grade remedial classes because of my deficits. Thankfully I was unaware of it at the time. By the end of seventh grade, I believe, I was inducted into the National Junior Honor Society.Replies: @res, @Desiderius
Yes, there were students in my classes who got excited enough by experiencing some success that they were willing to work with me on catching up on their deficits, including things as simple as times table exercises. It takes a teacher who isn’t freaked out by that. There will always be some IQ gaps, but IQ isn’t the end-all be-all. The problem is that the performance gaps are far more severe than the IQ gap would predict, even in school systems that overemphasize IQ.
In Texas I wound up on the Mexican border. When I went to college I realized that I had excelled in school because I didn’t have much competition. I didn’t even know what AP classes were. I had a lot of difficulty in college but eventually graduated. I started studying education as a hobby to understand why I did so poorly in college. I now know that you can tell how “good” a school is by looking at the race and income-level of the students or if the school screens before admitting.
Unfortunately, children are at the mercy of their parents and the public school system. Many hard working students graduate high school without anyone teaching them how to write a coherent paragraph. I would advise kids to read a lot and if they are interested in a particular subject to teach themselves, including AP courses.
I encourage parents to homeschool. If that is not an option, send children to a functional elementary school, ask them what their interests are career and hobby-wise, and if possible send them to a middle school or high school that caters to those interests. Select a high school with the highest SAT average possible so they can interact with reasonably intelligent people who have goals in life.
Spend money and time on studying for the SAT or ACT. High scores can lead to scholarships.
Pick a college that actually graduates people like you (race, income, SAT/ACT scores) and in your first choice of major. Pick a college that will accept your AP credits so you can graduate on time or early.
That list includes a lot of affluent and smart Northeastern suburbs so it seems legit.
Thanks for your response. That is fascinating and the HS/college part is not what I expected (I’m more used to “pulled up by better competition”, e.g. I would have guessed harder college would have helped you which was completely wrong).
If I understand correctly, the following factors were in play for your HS success:
– Less dysfunctional environment
– But one which left you still able to excel (i.e. not too hard)
– Which encouraged you to work harder (cue virtuous cycle)
Do you have any advice regarding peer groups to gravitate towards or avoid? How important was that for you?
I don’t know if your personal situation and surrounding environment permit you to look for kids like yourself to mentor, but if so I think it would be great for you to do something like that. You give good advice and I think your story would be inspirational as a role model both in what to do and not to do.
In particular, I think this is excellent advice (which I don’t recall seeing often if at all): “Pick a college that actually graduates people like you (race, income, SAT/ACT scores) and in your first choice of major.”
How hard is it to get data like that for colleges?