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For the 100th anniversary of Frank Sinatra’s birth tomorrow, Mark Steyn, with his encyclopedic knowledge of mid-Century songwriters, has been posting essays on 100 Sinatra songs and how they evolved.

Steyn starts with It Was a Very Good Year, which, I hadn’t realized, had been composed by Ervin Drake as a pseudo-folk song for the Kingston Trio. It wasn’t a hit for them.

There’s a television documentary about the recording of the song. The first thing Sinatra asks the producer when he finishes singing is how long it is? “3:20?” When he hears it came in at 4:12, he looks worried (radio didn’t like singles that long) and jokes, “That’s longer than the first act of Hamlet.” Later, he’s shown listening to the playback, after which he comments, “They’ll play it.”

My favorite Sinatra record? It’s not a very original or idiosyncratic choice, but as the apogee of an era, you can’t beat 1956’s I’ve Got You Under My Skin.

Steyn’s up to #91, so it’s fun to guess what he’ll end with. I’m guessing that #98 will be the ballad All The Way, #99 the Gershwin tune They Can’t Take That Away from Me, and #100 the drunk driving national anthem One for My Baby (And One More for the Road).

 
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  1. I learned from Mark Steyn that Sinatra disliked My Way. Too bombastic even for him. Steyn says that Sinatra didn’t like Strangers in the Night, either; but I sort of guessed it already from all this doo-bee-dooing.

    • Replies: @Ragno
    Glad to hear it - both times!
    , @D. K.
    Sinatra did not dislike "My Way" when he recorded it; he simply grew tired of his being expected to sing it, at every performance. (It actually was a French composition, for which his friend, Paul Anka, had rewritten an English lyric, especially for Sinatra.) "Strangers in the Night" was a song, on the other hand, that Sinatra did dislike, even when he recorded it. It became his first #1 single in a decade, however-- and, to the best of my knowledge, he never refused to cash any of the resulting checks!?! From Wikipedia.org:

    ***

    Reaching number one on both the Billboard Hot 100 chart and the Easy Listening chart,[4] it was the title song for Sinatra's 1966 album Strangers in the Night, which became his most commercially successful album. The song also reached number one on the UK Singles Chart.[5]

    Sinatra's recording won him the Grammy Award for Best Male Pop Vocal Performance and the Grammy Award for Record of the Year, as well as a Grammy Award for Best Arrangement Accompanying a Vocalist or Instrumentalist for Ernie Freeman at the Grammy Awards of 1967. Hal Blaine was the drummer on the record and Glen Campbell played rhythm guitar.[citation needed]

    ***

    When "Nice 'n' Easy" was first played for Sinatra, he walked over to the piano, picked up the sheet music with two fingers, as if it were contaminated, walked over to the garbage pail, and dropped it in, from shoulder height. He not only ended up recording the song, of course, but he insisted on placing it on an album (for which it actually was musically unsuited), and making it the album's opening and title track! Some songs grow on you, while others grow tiresome.
  2. Bret Easton Ellis Defends James Deen:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bret-easton-ellis-james-deen-847935

    The outspoken author and podcast host says his friend Deen — who starred in Ellis’ 2013 film ‘The Canyons’ — is the victim of a jealous and “unstable” ex-girlfriend.

  3. Funny how people lionize Il Deuche, was he really that good? Have heard stories of nightmarish behavior on the casino help, does talent absolve him of these personal sins?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    was he really that good?

    Yes.

    , @Former Darfur
    There were technically better singers but he had the swagger and total domination, plus his vocal tone, though technically not perfect, was very involving. And his ability to work around the beat and in his early years, his ability to sing long legato passages uninterrupted were very exceptional.

    In a certain way, he ruined a lot of people who followed him because they thought they could work around the beat as he did, and they couldn't. Willie Nelson is a good example. Willie's timing is godawful, because he heard Sinatra and thought, "Gee, I can do that." No Willie, you can't. You are not Frank Sinatra.

    You can't separate the man and his vaunted love life. He had most every woman in Hollywood for twenty years or so, either in marriage, an affair, or just a one night stand. The list of women known NOT to have been Franked is actually pretty small in comparison.

    And there were the temper tantrums and sometimes uncalled for behavior, sure.

    All in all, though, any man that says he doesn't envy Frank Sinatra is a liar.
    , @tbraton
    When I was much younger and attending graduate school at UVA, I happened to attend a dinner where the man sitting next to me was a middle-aged lawyer from Washington, D.C. who represented some pretty highly placed clients (one of my favorite fruits is cantaloupe, and he represented a family named after the same family of fruit). For some reason, the name of Sinatra came up, and he expressed his utter disgust for the man. But, I said, you would have to concede he was a pretty good singer, no? He would not even concede that Sinatra was a good singer, much less the great singer he was. At that time, I had read enough to realize that many of the great artists in history were not especially the kind of people you wanted as your next door neighbors. But I was somewhat surprised this otherwise intelligent man could not separate Sinatra's unsavory personal life from his undisputed talent as a singer: "the greatest singer of popular songs of the 20th century."
    , @eah
    was he really that good?

    Someone else who was, IMO, "really that good", was, believe it or not ... Elvis. I first realized that when I saw the documentary Elvis: That's the Way It Is. This excerpt from one of the Amazon reviews sums it up for me:

    'That's the way it is' captures Elvis' charisma, talent and amazing voice,...

    I was never a big fan of Elvis -- a little before my time -- but after seeing this film I had new respect for him and his talent. And also some sadness about his problems and early death.
    , @ben tillman

    Funny how people lionize Il Deuche, was he really that good?
     
    He was an anti-racist PC weenie. Or at least he played one in propaganda pieces, which amounts to the same thing.
    , @Kylie
    Never could stand Sinatra.

    But yes, he was that good.
    , @markflag
    Sinatra was an extraordinary singer. His ability to phrase a song was second to no one. That said, he was not a nice man by reputation. Yes, he did occasional nice things for people, everyone has that potential, but overall he was not a nice man. The challenge is to separate the art from the behavior. Van Gogh was nuts. Does that detract from his art? Some very nice, kind and gentle people are miserable artists. Should one prefer the nice guy over the bastard when it comes to art simply because of behavior? I can recall a woman opera singer who had a glorious voice. Alas, her career burned out early on the basis of extreme nastiness. I still enjoy listening to her recordings but would not cross the street to meet her.

    Listening to Sinatra sing is a lesson in communicating the meaning of the song. Sometimes I do not care for his interpretation in later work. His early stuff is great. Knock out the crap of his later years, "Strangers in the Night", "My Way" and that atrocity he did with his daughter. At the moment "Come Fly With Me" ear-worming its way into consciousness. The phrasing, the syncopation, the emphases. Perfect. But no, I wouldn't necessarily want to be in the first-class cabin with him.
  4. Did you happen to see the top article on The Atlantic? Frum’s piece on immigration that could’ve come from iSteve.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/refugees/419976/

    • Replies: @International Jew

    What seems to have changed Trump’s mind is a book: Adios America by Ann Coulter. The phrase “political book of the year” is a usually an !empty compliment, but if the phrase ever described any book, Adios America is it. In its pages, Trump found the message that would convulse the Republican primary and upend the dynastic hopes of former-frontrunner Jeb Bush. Perhaps no single writer has had such immediate impact on a presidential election since Harriet Beecher Stowe.
     
    That's pretty amazing.
  5. Sinatra was great but I never liked him.

    His sound was too self-satisfied and self-luxuriating.

    But two of his songs made for great movie moments:

    And the ending of Lost in America. NY NY.

  6. It’s a fantastic series, with Steyn firing on all pistons with his knowledge of composers’ lives, recording history, backstage gossip, and of course Frank. I’ve learned things even about songs I know and love.

    I hope he makes a book out of it. Steyn is an astonishingly good writer.

  7. @Blobby5
    Funny how people lionize Il Deuche, was he really that good? Have heard stories of nightmarish behavior on the casino help, does talent absolve him of these personal sins?

    was he really that good?

    Yes.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Good, yes. Talented with a great gift? No question about it.

    Relevant for today?....

    uh, no.

    He's dated. Stuck in that time zone pre November 22, 1963. Starting in Feb. 9 1964, NY, Ed Sullivan show which introduced the US to a new group from Britain which changed the course of western music for the rest of the century, Sinatra's been left behind by the rock medium which completely overtook his style of singing.

    The next generation really won't have a strong idea who Sinatra was. The millenials chiefly remember him as "Oh? Didn't he do those duets with Bono and...and...uh, all those other oldsters?"

    Who made a lasting impact on popular music over last half century....Sinatra or the Beatles?

    If we go by total sales both globally and in the US... as well as thousands of bands who have grown up with learning to play guitar, (and also keyboard) and drums...then we have to give the nod to the Beatles who helped define western music and shape it into what it is today right now.

    At best, there's been Harry Connick Jr. whose singing career petered out rather quickly after a few yrs of relevancy. And....oh, Michael Buble. But Buble sounds more like Bobby Darin than anyone so....that's about it.

    Even Elvis had more influence than Sinatra. But certainly the Beatles have to be first for the twentieth century. Unlike Sinatra, they actually wrote most of their own songs.
  8. Okay, Sinatra. I grew up on Sinatra records, because they were popular in the household. Of course this was a different era where male vocalists were important — Sinatra, Martin, Davis, Jr., Bennett, Como, etc. etc.

    I believe Sinatra’s voice got better in the ’50’s; it took on a lower timbre and he had a fabulous legato to string out phrases (supposedly he got that from Dorsey’s trombone playing). He was also an intelligent singer of the words; not to be underrated.

    Three favorite Sinatra moments off the top of my head:

    1. “Night and Day” from about 1954. This in a Nelson Riddle arrangement (you simply cannot underestimate the importance of arrangements with Sinatra). The familiar Cole Porter song is given a standard treatment that then transitions into an excellent swing piece about halfway through.

    2. “Only the Lonely” from about 1957, from the album of the same name. A typical sad ballad from the mid-century turned into a masterpiece (“suicide song” as he called them); an excellent example of Frank’s legato phrasing and the build to the climax at the very end is outstanding. Another Nelson Riddle arrangement.

    3. “My Heart Stood Still” An old Rodgers and Hart standby built up to a symphonic climax, another Riddle arrangement; the same album (1963, Concert Sinatra) has the best arrangement and singing of the “Soliloquy” from “Carousel” I have ever heard.

  9. Sinatra in concert, several times introduces this as “this little folk song”. I thought he was being facetious, but he wasn’t: that was the term they pitched it to him as.

    Probably 1961 was the year of Peak Frank. He was just starting Reprise, rock and roll could still be dismissed as the stuff of kiddies or “cretinous goons” as he preferred to phrase it, and he hadn’t really been whacked in the balls by life in general yet.

    The audience at the “Come Swing With Me” session:

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The audience at the “Come Swing With Me” session:

    https://thelabelscouturier.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/photo-23.jpg?w=560&h=455


    Poor Ray Charles couldn't see what was sitting next to him.
  10. I like “I’ve Got You Under My Skin” along with “Night and Day” and “Come Fly With Me.”

  11. @Blobby5
    Funny how people lionize Il Deuche, was he really that good? Have heard stories of nightmarish behavior on the casino help, does talent absolve him of these personal sins?

    There were technically better singers but he had the swagger and total domination, plus his vocal tone, though technically not perfect, was very involving. And his ability to work around the beat and in his early years, his ability to sing long legato passages uninterrupted were very exceptional.

    In a certain way, he ruined a lot of people who followed him because they thought they could work around the beat as he did, and they couldn’t. Willie Nelson is a good example. Willie’s timing is godawful, because he heard Sinatra and thought, “Gee, I can do that.” No Willie, you can’t. You are not Frank Sinatra.

    You can’t separate the man and his vaunted love life. He had most every woman in Hollywood for twenty years or so, either in marriage, an affair, or just a one night stand. The list of women known NOT to have been Franked is actually pretty small in comparison.

    And there were the temper tantrums and sometimes uncalled for behavior, sure.

    All in all, though, any man that says he doesn’t envy Frank Sinatra is a liar.

    • Replies: @Hunsdon
    Yeah, Willie Nelson sure was ruined.
    , @carol
    No Willie, you can’t. You are not Frank Sinatra.

    Thank you. Now, someone tell him. He's still trying to do it, and it's funny how people unknowingly flock to his concerts and come back so disappointed.

  12. Top ten Frankie (all on Capitol Records, natch):

    My Funny Valentine
    You Go To My Head
    September in the Rain
    Close to You
    These Foolish Things
    I’ve Got You Under My Skin
    Angel Eyes
    Little Girl Blue
    Where Are You?
    Come Fly With Me

    If I were prodded to add a tune from the Columbia (early) and Reprise (late) archives, they’d be – respectively – All of Me, and the little-known but masterful When the Wind Was Green.

  13. During a few consecutive summers working in a supermarket that played mostly summer-themed songs over and over and over for hours on end, I developed a passionate and probably-unwarranted adoration for Frank’s rendition of “Summer Wind“. It was one of the only songs that wasn’t absolutely sickening after the 150th rendition.

    The Go-Gos’ “Vacation“, on the other hand, still makes my skin crawl.

    • Replies: @donut
    A place I worked for about 5 mos. had a loop too , Not any particular theme just random songs . I only remember one of them and never got sick of it .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8cvpXm1Ze4

    The Mills Brothers : "more than 2,000 recordings that combined sold more than 50 million copies" I used to listen to their records at my grandparents home . you can buy their CD's on Amazon so someone must remember them .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P97iQAWpkdg
  14. @Former Darfur
    There were technically better singers but he had the swagger and total domination, plus his vocal tone, though technically not perfect, was very involving. And his ability to work around the beat and in his early years, his ability to sing long legato passages uninterrupted were very exceptional.

    In a certain way, he ruined a lot of people who followed him because they thought they could work around the beat as he did, and they couldn't. Willie Nelson is a good example. Willie's timing is godawful, because he heard Sinatra and thought, "Gee, I can do that." No Willie, you can't. You are not Frank Sinatra.

    You can't separate the man and his vaunted love life. He had most every woman in Hollywood for twenty years or so, either in marriage, an affair, or just a one night stand. The list of women known NOT to have been Franked is actually pretty small in comparison.

    And there were the temper tantrums and sometimes uncalled for behavior, sure.

    All in all, though, any man that says he doesn't envy Frank Sinatra is a liar.

    Yeah, Willie Nelson sure was ruined.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Well, that may not nbe the only reason he sucks, but he sucks.

    I can listen to Willie for one song, but over the course of a live gig (live or on, say, Austin City Limits) the combination of his trying to sing around the beat, his godawful guitar sound and his sister's plodding piano work drive me as far away as possible. The sound of his voice is not a selling point to me either.

    But to each his own.
  15. Francis Albert Sinatra. Was not only that good, but better.

  16. @Blobby5
    Funny how people lionize Il Deuche, was he really that good? Have heard stories of nightmarish behavior on the casino help, does talent absolve him of these personal sins?

    When I was much younger and attending graduate school at UVA, I happened to attend a dinner where the man sitting next to me was a middle-aged lawyer from Washington, D.C. who represented some pretty highly placed clients (one of my favorite fruits is cantaloupe, and he represented a family named after the same family of fruit). For some reason, the name of Sinatra came up, and he expressed his utter disgust for the man. But, I said, you would have to concede he was a pretty good singer, no? He would not even concede that Sinatra was a good singer, much less the great singer he was. At that time, I had read enough to realize that many of the great artists in history were not especially the kind of people you wanted as your next door neighbors. But I was somewhat surprised this otherwise intelligent man could not separate Sinatra’s unsavory personal life from his undisputed talent as a singer: “the greatest singer of popular songs of the 20th century.”

  17. I love most of Sinatra’s work and your choice is one of my favorites too, Steve. Another, similar in its simplicity, is “Fly Me to the Moon.”

  18. @inertial
    I learned from Mark Steyn that Sinatra disliked My Way. Too bombastic even for him. Steyn says that Sinatra didn't like Strangers in the Night, either; but I sort of guessed it already from all this doo-bee-dooing.

    Glad to hear it – both times!

    • Replies: @Anonym
    I love 'My way'. So sue me. It is the anthem of every stubborn bastard in the universe who has tried to accomplish something in life.
  19. Speaking of artistic geniuses, Bret Easton Ellis defends James Deen:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bret-easton-ellis-james-deen-847935

    “The outspoken author and podcast host says his friend Deen — who starred in Ellis’ 2013 film ‘The Canyons’ — is the victim of a jealous and “unstable” ex-girlfriend.”

    • Replies: @CK
    So how do those two names appear if we are "speaking" of art or genius?
  20. I’ve Got You Under My Skin is wonderful. I would nominate One For My Baby And One More For The Road as a top contender. I always figured being so small played into his flinty attitude. Also, I imagine he was dominated by his mother and saw his father be dominated thereby as well. Consider the fact that everybody knows that Frank went through a crisis of conscience when he became a Republican for his old buddy Reagan’s sake: he was worried about betraying his mother’s legacy. She was a staunch Democrat who must have been one of the few abortionists in New Jersey in the 1920-1930s who was not only a woman but also Italian Roman Catholic. Everybody knows that. But nobody knows anything about Frank’s father, so maybe he was a bit of a nobody. I wonder if Frank had to take a big step to get over that weird upbringing. That being said, I love Old Blue Eyes, I lived on his music as an aspie high school kid.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    Marty Sinatra was a quiet and unassuming man. Frank adored him (even though Marty had thrown Frank out of the house, for a long period of time, in disapproval of his wanting to be a crooner!); but, Frank was his mother's son. It was a love-hate relationship, but it was the relationship that clearly propelled him into becoming the man that he became. Dolly Sinatra died, along with a lifelong friend from Hoboken and their pilot, in a plane that Frank had leased, en route from Palm Springs to Las Vegas, to see her son perform. Their Lear jet crashed into San Gorgonio Mountain, just after taking off from Palm Springs Airport, on January 6, 1977. Just over a decade later, on March 21, 1987, Dean Martin's son, Dino (of Dino, Desi and Billy), crashed into the same mountain, during a snowstorm, while flying for the California Air National Guard, killing both Captain Martin and his fellow crew member, Captain Ramon Ortiz. Dolly's death took a lot out of Frank, especially under the circumstances. Dino's death turned his father into a moribund shadow of his former self. Dean Martin, in his later years, would answer, when asked how he was doing, "Just waiting to die."
    , @D. K.
    P.S. When Reagan was elected governor, in 1966, Sinatra still was supporting the Democrats. He supported Humphrey over Nixon, in 1968. He supported Democrat John Tunney, for the United States Senate, in 1970, at the same time that he supported Reagan's re-election for governor. It was when Sinatra supported Nixon's re-election, in 1972, and actually became close friends with Agnew, that it was apparent that he was making the same u-turn, from New Deal Democrat to country-club Republican, that Reagan had made, several years earlier. Sinatra's children, to this day, have not gotten over it, as is apparent from their books about their father-- especially Tina's.
  21. @Blobby5
    Funny how people lionize Il Deuche, was he really that good? Have heard stories of nightmarish behavior on the casino help, does talent absolve him of these personal sins?

    was he really that good?

    Someone else who was, IMO, “really that good”, was, believe it or not … Elvis. I first realized that when I saw the documentary Elvis: That’s the Way It Is. This excerpt from one of the Amazon reviews sums it up for me:

    ‘That’s the way it is’ captures Elvis’ charisma, talent and amazing voice,…

    I was never a big fan of Elvis — a little before my time — but after seeing this film I had new respect for him and his talent. And also some sadness about his problems and early death.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Elvis was an incredible singer. His problem was he was too polite, wasn't ornery enough to insist upon taking control of his career the way Sinatra did in his late thirties.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    The camera loved Elvis.
  22. Sirius XM’s Siriusly Sinatra station is quite good.

  23. My two youngest daughters are into record players and vinyl records. I bought them both “Best of Sinatra” albums which they both love. My 98 year old mother begrudgingly gives him credit as a singer, as a man, not so much.

  24. I don’t see “My Kind of Town” on Steyn’s list.

  25. My favorite Sinatra joke….A man runs into Sinatra in a Vegas restroom, confesses to being a huge fan and prevails upon Frank to stop by his table, and just say…”Hello Joe, how are you doing?” The man rushes back to his table and sits down between two very attractive women. In a short time Sinatra strolls towards the table, stops and says…”Hello Joe, how are you doing?” The man looks up, stares angrily at Sinatra and says….”What the fuck Frank, can’t you see I’m Busy.”

    • Replies: @Anon
    Not a joke - a true Don Rickles story.
  26. I’ve always liked Dean Martin better. Dino made everything seem effortless.

    In a related competition, I choose Mary Ann over Ginger.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    I like Dean and Frank both. Dean was the more likable, the more relaxed, a way easier person to be around. And his against-type portrayal of the captain on the original Airport influenced a generation of airline crews to adopt a certain style. Contra Tom Wolfe, no airline pilot consciously emulated Yeager, but a lot of pilots went out of their way to be like Dean Martin, and a lot of mechanics emulated George Kennedy.

    The only person on earth that doesn't like Dean is now a lot like him at the podium, if not quite as benevolent:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntZ0APFF9B4
  27. @Hepp
    Did you happen to see the top article on The Atlantic? Frum's piece on immigration that could've come from iSteve.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/refugees/419976/

    What seems to have changed Trump’s mind is a book: Adios America by Ann Coulter. The phrase “political book of the year” is a usually an !empty compliment, but if the phrase ever described any book, Adios America is it. In its pages, Trump found the message that would convulse the Republican primary and upend the dynastic hopes of former-frontrunner Jeb Bush. Perhaps no single writer has had such immediate impact on a presidential election since Harriet Beecher Stowe.

    That’s pretty amazing.

    • Replies: @Hepp
    Yeah, he's publicly praised her book. Either he read it, or he heard her talk about it on TV and read her columns and absorbed many of the arguments.
    , @MEH 0910

    Perhaps no single writer has had such immediate impact on a presidential election since Harriet Beecher Stowe.

     

    Trim tab as a metaphor

    The engineer Buckminster Fuller is often cited for his use of trim tabs as a metaphor for leadership and personal empowerment. In the February 1972 issue of Playboy, Fuller said:
     


    Something hit me very hard once, thinking about what one little man could do. Think of the Queen Mary—the whole ship goes by and then comes the rudder. And there's a tiny thing at the edge of the rudder called a trim tab.

    It's a miniature rudder. Just moving the little trim tab builds a low pressure that pulls the rudder around. Takes almost no effort at all. So I said that the little individual can be a trim tab. Society thinks it's going right by you, that it's left you altogether. But if you're doing dynamic things mentally, the fact is that you can just put your foot out like that and the whole big ship of state is going to go.
    So I said, call me Trim Tab.
    — Buckminster Fuller
     

     
    , @Anonym
    And you can most likely trace Coulter directly to Sailer.
    , @Hepp
    Coulter on Twitter tonight:

    https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/675530716545855488
  28. “All the Way” What a great love song.

    (One of George Will’s hobbyhorses is urban education. One time he visited a catholic school in Jersey City IIRC that had a teacher none of the yuts ever talked back to, because during detention he played Frank Sinatra, which drove the urban yuts cuckoonuts)

  29. @Hunsdon
    Yeah, Willie Nelson sure was ruined.

    Well, that may not nbe the only reason he sucks, but he sucks.

    I can listen to Willie for one song, but over the course of a live gig (live or on, say, Austin City Limits) the combination of his trying to sing around the beat, his godawful guitar sound and his sister’s plodding piano work drive me as far away as possible. The sound of his voice is not a selling point to me either.

    But to each his own.

  30. Ol’ Blue Eyes certainly captured the mood of early postwar America. Tough, smart, arrogant, violent, and ultimately doomed.

    George Will’s recent column about him included one of my favorite jokes about him, courtesy of his old pal Shecky Greene:

    “Sinatra saved my life in 1967. Five guys were beating me up and I heard Frank say ‘That’s enough’.”

  31. Van Heusen & Burke’s “Here’s That Rainy Day”

    • Replies: @D. K.
    Introduced, by Dolores Gray, in an otherwise flop:

    "Gray won the Tony Award for Best Lead Actress in a Musical for her role in Carnival in Flanders, even though this Broadway musical, with a script by Preston Sturges, ran for only six performances. She therefore holds a record that is unlikely to be broken: briefest run in a performance which still earned a Tony."
  32. Unequivocally the best at what he did.

    Sinatra had a phenomenal timbre/tone, impeccable musicality and perfect diction.

    Most importantly, he was able to resonate from his head, nose, mouth and chest at the same time.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_resonation

    I have never heard any other singer able to do it. It was as if his whole body resonated like a finely tuned carillon bell or a hand bell. I suspect his physiology was perfect for his type of crooning.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    And, he isn't on top anymore. Most of the new generations have little idea who he was. This isn't 1963 anymore.
  33. @eah
    was he really that good?

    Someone else who was, IMO, "really that good", was, believe it or not ... Elvis. I first realized that when I saw the documentary Elvis: That's the Way It Is. This excerpt from one of the Amazon reviews sums it up for me:

    'That's the way it is' captures Elvis' charisma, talent and amazing voice,...

    I was never a big fan of Elvis -- a little before my time -- but after seeing this film I had new respect for him and his talent. And also some sadness about his problems and early death.

    Elvis was an incredible singer. His problem was he was too polite, wasn’t ornery enough to insist upon taking control of his career the way Sinatra did in his late thirties.

    • Replies: @cthulhu
    If Col. Tom Parker hadn't pulled Elvis away from Leiber and Stoller...talk about a "what might have been!"
    , @Former Darfur
    Elvis adored and was completely subservient to The Col. Even back then, people saw it as an abusive and domineering relationship, and Elvis knew it. He made his decision and that was that.

    If the Col. had been deported, Elvis would likely be here today.
    , @Anonym
    Elvis was definitely something special.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_CcmOcBuzI
    , @BigRedEyeOfJupiter
    Reading a cheap old paperback called "The last days of Elvis" that I found for a quarter at a yard sale. It has the amusing story of Elvis having a brief rebellion after being scolded for giving away huge gifts to total strangers. He basically ran away to show up at the Whitehouse door and meet with President Nixon. Its pretty clear throughout that the Cornel and his team handled every single aspect of Elvis' existence and business for him, and he got to live like a big sexed up child. A pretty good arrangement for all involved except rock critics. I find his movie music fun as hell as it has silly camp value and cheese.
  34. @Former Darfur
    There were technically better singers but he had the swagger and total domination, plus his vocal tone, though technically not perfect, was very involving. And his ability to work around the beat and in his early years, his ability to sing long legato passages uninterrupted were very exceptional.

    In a certain way, he ruined a lot of people who followed him because they thought they could work around the beat as he did, and they couldn't. Willie Nelson is a good example. Willie's timing is godawful, because he heard Sinatra and thought, "Gee, I can do that." No Willie, you can't. You are not Frank Sinatra.

    You can't separate the man and his vaunted love life. He had most every woman in Hollywood for twenty years or so, either in marriage, an affair, or just a one night stand. The list of women known NOT to have been Franked is actually pretty small in comparison.

    And there were the temper tantrums and sometimes uncalled for behavior, sure.

    All in all, though, any man that says he doesn't envy Frank Sinatra is a liar.

    No Willie, you can’t. You are not Frank Sinatra.

    Thank you. Now, someone tell him. He’s still trying to do it, and it’s funny how people unknowingly flock to his concerts and come back so disappointed.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Years ago, I worked at a plant office with a female co-worker I really had a fascination for, but I had, and have a strict rule about not dating co-workers. She was about twelve or thirteen years older than me and was very much in the Farrah Fawcett mold: born in Texas into moderate affluence, raised in California, moved to the Rust Belt for a relationship that bombed and was biding her time until she could go back West in the style she was accustomed to. She was trim, athletic, a bottle blonde but very much in the cheerleader pom pom girl mode. When I was offered another gig, I decided to go for it and ask her out, since I would be leaving and if things turned sour, it wouldn't affect either of us at work.

    I found out she was into Willie Nelson. Bigtime. So I got two good, but not too good, seats to a Willie Nelson concert which was going on in the next slightly bigger town over, and I asked her out. She accepted, because, well, she really liked Willie. Or she said she did: I think for her country music was an affectation, she probably secretly preferred something else, but she accepted and I didn't argue.

    Never having listened to Willie except in three minute segments of his studio recordings on radio, I found the show okay at first, but as it went on, I started getting uncomfortable. The musicians were good, and the songs well written (as a songwriter, I have a fair bit of respect for Willie to this day) but something really bothered me about the playing. After a while, I realized what was going on: Willie was like listening to an old car running that lost the hold down clamp for the distributor and the timing was going all over the place. Plus which, Willie's guitar playing sounded like a playing card through a bicycle spoke. After an hour, I was in abject misery. I would have walked out except for my date, who I could tell was indifferent to the music itself but really was into the image of really liking the stuff.

    Somehow, I got through the show, which was really long, and took my date to her house. It was a small but elegantly, femininely appointed house, and in her bedroom was a magnificent four-poster canopy bed. We made good use of it, and after it was over I remember thinking, Gee, that was great.....but damn, it wasn't worth listening to that discombobulated old goat for three-plus hours!

  35. @eah
    was he really that good?

    Someone else who was, IMO, "really that good", was, believe it or not ... Elvis. I first realized that when I saw the documentary Elvis: That's the Way It Is. This excerpt from one of the Amazon reviews sums it up for me:

    'That's the way it is' captures Elvis' charisma, talent and amazing voice,...

    I was never a big fan of Elvis -- a little before my time -- but after seeing this film I had new respect for him and his talent. And also some sadness about his problems and early death.

    The camera loved Elvis.

  36. Sinatra may have been the best of his era, but I find the singing of Johnny Mathis more moving; Nat King Cole and Dean Martin, too.

    Excellence of technique, like Sinatra had, is not enough.

    Whereas Elvis, though not known for excellence of technique, stirs something deep inside the souls of tens of millions, in a way that Sinatra does not.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Elvis had more raw, biological talent than Frank, but he never developed it, because The Colonel said no, Elvis, you are ok the way you are. Frank developed what he had really well.

    A good picture into what the rest of showbiz thought about The Col. even then is here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd14ztiGMHc


    Of course, no one knew The Col. was an illegal immigrant back then, even though his own brother came to the US and told anyone who would listen.

    And one of the Elvis impersonators on this-surely the first known filming of an Elvis impersonator-is Dick Dale, King of the Surf Guitar.

    , @Former Darfur
    Sinatra disliked Mathis and referred to him quite openly as "The African Queen".
  37. @poolside
    I've always liked Dean Martin better. Dino made everything seem effortless.

    In a related competition, I choose Mary Ann over Ginger.

    I like Dean and Frank both. Dean was the more likable, the more relaxed, a way easier person to be around. And his against-type portrayal of the captain on the original Airport influenced a generation of airline crews to adopt a certain style. Contra Tom Wolfe, no airline pilot consciously emulated Yeager, but a lot of pilots went out of their way to be like Dean Martin, and a lot of mechanics emulated George Kennedy.

    The only person on earth that doesn’t like Dean is now a lot like him at the podium, if not quite as benevolent:

    • Replies: @Larry, San Francisco
    It's like Dean Martin is inhabiting his body. Especially interesting since Deano was not a huge fan of the Stones:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqYEkYpX-uY

    Sinatra (and Martin) may not have been the greatest guys in the world but at least their children loved them. More than you can for Bing Crosby and some others.
    , @Bill B.
    Mr Richards also argued that if you close your eyes Bruce Springsteen sounds like Neil Diamond.
  38. Impossible to talk about Sinatra without mentioning the fabulous New Journalism classic from Gay Talese, “Frank Sinatra Has A Cold”; I think you can read it for free on Esquire’s web site.

    Sinatra and Elvis were both very, very good with the right material. But they both had plenty of stinkers later in their careers; for example, take a listen to Sinatra’s cover of “Mrs. Robinson” – if you dare.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Sinatra and Elvis were both very, very good with the right material. But they both had plenty of stinkers later in their careers; for example, take a listen to Sinatra’s cover of “Mrs. Robinson” – if you dare.

    Frank had several stinkers, but his "Mrs. Robinson" isn't one of them. Indeed, it's one of the few things in his oeuvre that is funny as hell, and Frank had to know it.

    I'm thinking it's a swipe at folkie seriousness and also at Joe D., who he had a hard-on for after he was not allowed to pay his respects at Marilyn's funeral.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOtCxVGSzh
  39. @Steve Sailer
    Elvis was an incredible singer. His problem was he was too polite, wasn't ornery enough to insist upon taking control of his career the way Sinatra did in his late thirties.

    If Col. Tom Parker hadn’t pulled Elvis away from Leiber and Stoller…talk about a “what might have been!”

  40. @International Jew

    What seems to have changed Trump’s mind is a book: Adios America by Ann Coulter. The phrase “political book of the year” is a usually an !empty compliment, but if the phrase ever described any book, Adios America is it. In its pages, Trump found the message that would convulse the Republican primary and upend the dynastic hopes of former-frontrunner Jeb Bush. Perhaps no single writer has had such immediate impact on a presidential election since Harriet Beecher Stowe.
     
    That's pretty amazing.

    Yeah, he’s publicly praised her book. Either he read it, or he heard her talk about it on TV and read her columns and absorbed many of the arguments.

  41. @Jonathan Silber
    Sinatra may have been the best of his era, but I find the singing of Johnny Mathis more moving; Nat King Cole and Dean Martin, too.

    Excellence of technique, like Sinatra had, is not enough.

    Whereas Elvis, though not known for excellence of technique, stirs something deep inside the souls of tens of millions, in a way that Sinatra does not.

    Elvis had more raw, biological talent than Frank, but he never developed it, because The Colonel said no, Elvis, you are ok the way you are. Frank developed what he had really well.

    A good picture into what the rest of showbiz thought about The Col. even then is here

    Of course, no one knew The Col. was an illegal immigrant back then, even though his own brother came to the US and told anyone who would listen.

    And one of the Elvis impersonators on this-surely the first known filming of an Elvis impersonator-is Dick Dale, King of the Surf Guitar.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    Dick Dale, King of the Surf Guitar.

    Not another Arab American ......
  42. @cthulhu
    Impossible to talk about Sinatra without mentioning the fabulous New Journalism classic from Gay Talese, "Frank Sinatra Has A Cold"; I think you can read it for free on Esquire's web site.

    Sinatra and Elvis were both very, very good with the right material. But they both had plenty of stinkers later in their careers; for example, take a listen to Sinatra's cover of "Mrs. Robinson" - if you dare.

    Sinatra and Elvis were both very, very good with the right material. But they both had plenty of stinkers later in their careers; for example, take a listen to Sinatra’s cover of “Mrs. Robinson” – if you dare.

    Frank had several stinkers, but his “Mrs. Robinson” isn’t one of them. Indeed, it’s one of the few things in his oeuvre that is funny as hell, and Frank had to know it.

    I’m thinking it’s a swipe at folkie seriousness and also at Joe D., who he had a hard-on for after he was not allowed to pay his respects at Marilyn’s funeral.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Let's get to it. The main reason why Sinatra had stinkers later in his career was because he couldn't relate to the 60s generation and beyond. Time had passed him by. He wasn't the main attraction anymore, the Beatles had seen to that.

    Can't ever imagine Sinatra trying to rap, it would've been awful. And a desperate attempt to stay relevant as singing about peace, love, the animals, being green, etc.

    Please.
  43. @Former Darfur
    Elvis had more raw, biological talent than Frank, but he never developed it, because The Colonel said no, Elvis, you are ok the way you are. Frank developed what he had really well.

    A good picture into what the rest of showbiz thought about The Col. even then is here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd14ztiGMHc


    Of course, no one knew The Col. was an illegal immigrant back then, even though his own brother came to the US and told anyone who would listen.

    And one of the Elvis impersonators on this-surely the first known filming of an Elvis impersonator-is Dick Dale, King of the Surf Guitar.

    Dick Dale, King of the Surf Guitar.

    Not another Arab American ……

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Yep, Richard Monsour.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Dale

    In the "Can't Make Shit Like This Up" Department, he is not to be confused with another Dick Dale, who was a vocalist on the old Lawrence Welk Show.
    , @SPMoore8
    I will break protocol and reply to myself, hopefully to get some help:

    Here's Dick Dale's arguably most famous recording, Misirlou:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y3h9p_c5-M

    Here's Martin Denny's Exotica Cover:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5owZr9vP7c

    Finally, coming full circle (since Dale was the father of Surf Music), here's the Surfaris "Wipe Out":

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clr53fWVbTM

    -- My contention is that the opening to "Wipe Out" is indebted to the Denny cover. Although if anyone has any inputs on the snake charmer in the Denny video, I'm all ears.
  44. @International Jew

    What seems to have changed Trump’s mind is a book: Adios America by Ann Coulter. The phrase “political book of the year” is a usually an !empty compliment, but if the phrase ever described any book, Adios America is it. In its pages, Trump found the message that would convulse the Republican primary and upend the dynastic hopes of former-frontrunner Jeb Bush. Perhaps no single writer has had such immediate impact on a presidential election since Harriet Beecher Stowe.
     
    That's pretty amazing.

    Perhaps no single writer has had such immediate impact on a presidential election since Harriet Beecher Stowe.

    Trim tab as a metaphor

    The engineer Buckminster Fuller is often cited for his use of trim tabs as a metaphor for leadership and personal empowerment. In the February 1972 issue of Playboy, Fuller said:

    Something hit me very hard once, thinking about what one little man could do. Think of the Queen Mary—the whole ship goes by and then comes the rudder. And there’s a tiny thing at the edge of the rudder called a trim tab.

    It’s a miniature rudder. Just moving the little trim tab builds a low pressure that pulls the rudder around. Takes almost no effort at all. So I said that the little individual can be a trim tab. Society thinks it’s going right by you, that it’s left you altogether. But if you’re doing dynamic things mentally, the fact is that you can just put your foot out like that and the whole big ship of state is going to go.
    So I said, call me Trim Tab.
    — Buckminster Fuller

  45. I am a baby boomer raised on sex, drugs and rock’n’roll. Never listened to Sinatra a lick in my youth (late 60s/70s).

    Then, three years ago, my daughter, a freshman in college at the time, got into performing YouTube “make-up videos” which were all the rage at the time. This is when a girl, using a live model (her best friend from high school), demonstrates techniques for applying make-up to achieve maximum beauty and fashion.

    So…she comes out with one that has “The Way You Look Tonight” as the song that brings it all together at the end. I was astonished…I mean…where did a 18 year-old-Millenial come up with such a fantastic song to accompany her video? Two very pretty girls…with this incredibly romantic, swinging song…well…it was a work of art. I passed it along to work colleagues and the video went viral in minor way.

    It was at that time that this old rocker really came to truly appreciate Ole Blue Eyes…he was something else. One of a kind and there will never be another like him.

    BTW – this is a nice topic for a Friday evening with cocktail in hand. Music, classical American music, great 80’s movie videos that others have uploaded (loved that Strangers in the Night one from Lost in America. I plan to check that out on NetFlix). Check out “The Way You Look Tonight”…if you cannot get laid with this one, there is no hope!

    • Replies: @Anon
    I'm a late-era baby boomer raised on rock and roll, and I still don't like Sinatra.

    *Pounds table hard*

    Guys like Sinatra and their music are what we were all rebelling against, for God's sake. As far as I'm concerned, if it came after Baroque and before 1955, it sucks donkey balls.

    , @Desiderius
    Sinatra hit the scene with the same vibe (i.e. pure grain virility - see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68SgQLKnlYM) Metallica did in the early 80s (and Mozart in the 1780s, etc..), he just kept it up for the better part of 60 years.
    , @Harold
    And here I thought your youth was around ’86.
  46. @SPMoore8
    Dick Dale, King of the Surf Guitar.

    Not another Arab American ......

    Yep, Richard Monsour.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Dale

    In the “Can’t Make Shit Like This Up” Department, he is not to be confused with another Dick Dale, who was a vocalist on the old Lawrence Welk Show.

  47. @Jonathan Silber
    Sinatra may have been the best of his era, but I find the singing of Johnny Mathis more moving; Nat King Cole and Dean Martin, too.

    Excellence of technique, like Sinatra had, is not enough.

    Whereas Elvis, though not known for excellence of technique, stirs something deep inside the souls of tens of millions, in a way that Sinatra does not.

    Sinatra disliked Mathis and referred to him quite openly as “The African Queen”.

  48. @Steve Sailer
    Elvis was an incredible singer. His problem was he was too polite, wasn't ornery enough to insist upon taking control of his career the way Sinatra did in his late thirties.

    Elvis adored and was completely subservient to The Col. Even back then, people saw it as an abusive and domineering relationship, and Elvis knew it. He made his decision and that was that.

    If the Col. had been deported, Elvis would likely be here today.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "If the Col. had been deported, Elvis would likely be here today."

    If Donald Trump was old enough to have been president back than, he would have deported the Col. back to The Netherlands where he belonged.
  49. @Buffalo Joe
    My favorite Sinatra joke....A man runs into Sinatra in a Vegas restroom, confesses to being a huge fan and prevails upon Frank to stop by his table, and just say..."Hello Joe, how are you doing?" The man rushes back to his table and sits down between two very attractive women. In a short time Sinatra strolls towards the table, stops and says..."Hello Joe, how are you doing?" The man looks up, stares angrily at Sinatra and says...."What the fuck Frank, can't you see I'm Busy."

    Not a joke – a true Don Rickles story.

  50. Sinatra was a fine actor too. His performance in the Manchurian Candidate was Oscar-worthy.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    His performance in "From Here to Eternity" was thought Oscarworthy by the Academy itself.
  51. @Ragno
    Glad to hear it - both times!

    I love ‘My way’. So sue me. It is the anthem of every stubborn bastard in the universe who has tried to accomplish something in life.

  52. @International Jew

    What seems to have changed Trump’s mind is a book: Adios America by Ann Coulter. The phrase “political book of the year” is a usually an !empty compliment, but if the phrase ever described any book, Adios America is it. In its pages, Trump found the message that would convulse the Republican primary and upend the dynastic hopes of former-frontrunner Jeb Bush. Perhaps no single writer has had such immediate impact on a presidential election since Harriet Beecher Stowe.
     
    That's pretty amazing.

    And you can most likely trace Coulter directly to Sailer.

    • Replies: @Honorary Thief
    Has anyone read the book? Does she cite Steve's work?
  53. @SPMoore8
    Dick Dale, King of the Surf Guitar.

    Not another Arab American ......

    I will break protocol and reply to myself, hopefully to get some help:

    Here’s Dick Dale’s arguably most famous recording, Misirlou:

    Here’s Martin Denny’s Exotica Cover:

    Finally, coming full circle (since Dale was the father of Surf Music), here’s the Surfaris “Wipe Out”:

    — My contention is that the opening to “Wipe Out” is indebted to the Denny cover. Although if anyone has any inputs on the snake charmer in the Denny video, I’m all ears.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    For 3 minutes of serious guitar playing, watch Stevie Ray Vaughan & Dick Dale play Pipeline.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIvfVyyqTDI
    , @CK
    Released just days before the Six day war.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM3xcKzNMbY
    Such a beautiful song.
  54. @Blobby5
    Funny how people lionize Il Deuche, was he really that good? Have heard stories of nightmarish behavior on the casino help, does talent absolve him of these personal sins?

    Funny how people lionize Il Deuche, was he really that good?

    He was an anti-racist PC weenie. Or at least he played one in propaganda pieces, which amounts to the same thing.

  55. A few here have talked about his personal life disparagingly, none of you betas were ever in the position to turn down all that ass nor will you ever be. It’s really SJW to judge him that way. You sound like the female journalists that Steve always talks about hoping the world conforms to you and that girls like you because you are “nice” and would never cheat on them.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Silber
    A few here have talked about his[Sinatra's] personal life disparagingly, none of you betas were ever in the position to turn down all that ass nor will you ever be.

    If a man has reached his middle age and can still think of nothing better to do with his time than chase tail, he's a case of arrested development.
    , @CK
    First Rule:
    If she cheats with you; she will cheat on you.
  56. And Frank sang the theme song to Married With Children. No idea how the show persuaded him to do it.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    He didn't own the rights to his performance, so the show simply had to buy the rights.
  57. @carol
    No Willie, you can’t. You are not Frank Sinatra.

    Thank you. Now, someone tell him. He's still trying to do it, and it's funny how people unknowingly flock to his concerts and come back so disappointed.

    Years ago, I worked at a plant office with a female co-worker I really had a fascination for, but I had, and have a strict rule about not dating co-workers. She was about twelve or thirteen years older than me and was very much in the Farrah Fawcett mold: born in Texas into moderate affluence, raised in California, moved to the Rust Belt for a relationship that bombed and was biding her time until she could go back West in the style she was accustomed to. She was trim, athletic, a bottle blonde but very much in the cheerleader pom pom girl mode. When I was offered another gig, I decided to go for it and ask her out, since I would be leaving and if things turned sour, it wouldn’t affect either of us at work.

    I found out she was into Willie Nelson. Bigtime. So I got two good, but not too good, seats to a Willie Nelson concert which was going on in the next slightly bigger town over, and I asked her out. She accepted, because, well, she really liked Willie. Or she said she did: I think for her country music was an affectation, she probably secretly preferred something else, but she accepted and I didn’t argue.

    Never having listened to Willie except in three minute segments of his studio recordings on radio, I found the show okay at first, but as it went on, I started getting uncomfortable. The musicians were good, and the songs well written (as a songwriter, I have a fair bit of respect for Willie to this day) but something really bothered me about the playing. After a while, I realized what was going on: Willie was like listening to an old car running that lost the hold down clamp for the distributor and the timing was going all over the place. Plus which, Willie’s guitar playing sounded like a playing card through a bicycle spoke. After an hour, I was in abject misery. I would have walked out except for my date, who I could tell was indifferent to the music itself but really was into the image of really liking the stuff.

    Somehow, I got through the show, which was really long, and took my date to her house. It was a small but elegantly, femininely appointed house, and in her bedroom was a magnificent four-poster canopy bed. We made good use of it, and after it was over I remember thinking, Gee, that was great…..but damn, it wasn’t worth listening to that discombobulated old goat for three-plus hours!

    • Replies: @Trelane
    You should have become a musician yourself, or a sound engineer like Alan Parsons or a producer like Phil Spector or perhaps a songwriter like Kris Kristofferson. Too bad you didn't. But I'm glad you were able to fornicate and debauch your former coworker and relate this to iSteve readers. Thanks, ...
  58. @prosa123
    Sinatra was a fine actor too. His performance in the Manchurian Candidate was Oscar-worthy.

    His performance in “From Here to Eternity” was thought Oscarworthy by the Academy itself.

  59. @Steve Sailer
    Elvis was an incredible singer. His problem was he was too polite, wasn't ornery enough to insist upon taking control of his career the way Sinatra did in his late thirties.

    Elvis was definitely something special.

  60. I find Sinatra’s music a little tedious. Two female singers of his generation that I thought sang circles around him are Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan. Among male singers, I think Nat King Cole and Andy Williams are better singers, but they were dwarfed by Sinatra’s charisma.

  61. @Blobby5
    Funny how people lionize Il Deuche, was he really that good? Have heard stories of nightmarish behavior on the casino help, does talent absolve him of these personal sins?

    Never could stand Sinatra.

    But yes, he was that good.

  62. @Anonym
    And you can most likely trace Coulter directly to Sailer.

    Has anyone read the book? Does she cite Steve’s work?

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ann-coulter-credits-white-nationalist-writer-her-anti-immigrant-politics

    Brimelow’s VDARE has excitedly promoted Coulter’s Chronicles interview, perhaps because its writers don’t always get credit when their ideas get absorbed into the conservative mainstream. For instance, VDARE has been seeking credit from the GOP for the increasing popularity of an idea put forward by its contributor Steve Sailer, who was the first to outline in detail a supposed path to victory for Republicans that relies solely on white voters. Ann Coulter, incidentally, has credited Sailer for the “Sailer strategy” and continues to heartily endorse it. Last year, Coulter cited Sailer's work in a speech from the mainstage at CPAC.
     
  63. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @leper messiah
    I am a baby boomer raised on sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. Never listened to Sinatra a lick in my youth (late 60s/70s).

    Then, three years ago, my daughter, a freshman in college at the time, got into performing YouTube "make-up videos" which were all the rage at the time. This is when a girl, using a live model (her best friend from high school), demonstrates techniques for applying make-up to achieve maximum beauty and fashion.

    So...she comes out with one that has "The Way You Look Tonight" as the song that brings it all together at the end. I was astonished...I mean...where did a 18 year-old-Millenial come up with such a fantastic song to accompany her video? Two very pretty girls...with this incredibly romantic, swinging song...well...it was a work of art. I passed it along to work colleagues and the video went viral in minor way.

    It was at that time that this old rocker really came to truly appreciate Ole Blue Eyes...he was something else. One of a kind and there will never be another like him.

    BTW - this is a nice topic for a Friday evening with cocktail in hand. Music, classical American music, great 80's movie videos that others have uploaded (loved that Strangers in the Night one from Lost in America. I plan to check that out on NetFlix). Check out "The Way You Look Tonight"...if you cannot get laid with this one, there is no hope!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9ZGKALMMuc

    I’m a late-era baby boomer raised on rock and roll, and I still don’t like Sinatra.

    *Pounds table hard*

    Guys like Sinatra and their music are what we were all rebelling against, for God’s sake. As far as I’m concerned, if it came after Baroque and before 1955, it sucks donkey balls.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Guys like Sinatra and their music are what we were all rebelling against, for God’s sake.
     
    It's not too late to repent.
    , @Ragno
    Ridiculous. There's no reason one can't enjoy and appreciate the Great American Songbook era of "vocals" artists like Sinatra, Ella, Bing, etc, along with the transitional artists like Elvis and the rock-era artists that followed.

    And why not? Would you eat the same meal, prepared the same way, day after day after day, as a form of protest against all other cuisines in the world?

    We may all end up forced to repudiate our bygone popular singers, and even our early rock muscians, in the ever-continuing Mao-style road of 'cultural revolution'/political repression we're marching joylessly on....but until then, the ability to cultivate catholic tastes in music, pop or otherwise, remains one of the indisputable joys and benefits of the Western world.

  64. Check the duet at 0:43:

  65. @Anon
    I'm a late-era baby boomer raised on rock and roll, and I still don't like Sinatra.

    *Pounds table hard*

    Guys like Sinatra and their music are what we were all rebelling against, for God's sake. As far as I'm concerned, if it came after Baroque and before 1955, it sucks donkey balls.

    Guys like Sinatra and their music are what we were all rebelling against, for God’s sake.

    It’s not too late to repent.

  66. “During a few consecutive summers working in a supermarket that played mostly summer-themed songs over and over and over for hours on end, I developed a passionate and probably-unwarranted adoration for Frank’s rendition of “Summer Wind“. It was one of the only songs that wasn’t absolutely sickening after the 150th rendition.”

    I thought I was going to be the first person to mention that song. Love it ferociously.

    Frank made a so-so movie with the great Doris Day, Young at Heart. He sang four songs on screen: One for My Baby, Someone to Watch Over Me, Just One of those Things and You, My Love. The movie was named Young at Heart, which Frank sang over the credits. Each song is a masterpiece.

    Mark Steyn speaks well of the movie here, and he’s absolutely right about Day and Sinatra’s chemistry, particularly in Frank’s initial scenes, which you can see here.

  67. @Steve Sailer
    was he really that good?

    Yes.

    Good, yes. Talented with a great gift? No question about it.

    Relevant for today?….

    uh, no.

    He’s dated. Stuck in that time zone pre November 22, 1963. Starting in Feb. 9 1964, NY, Ed Sullivan show which introduced the US to a new group from Britain which changed the course of western music for the rest of the century, Sinatra’s been left behind by the rock medium which completely overtook his style of singing.

    The next generation really won’t have a strong idea who Sinatra was. The millenials chiefly remember him as “Oh? Didn’t he do those duets with Bono and…and…uh, all those other oldsters?”

    Who made a lasting impact on popular music over last half century….Sinatra or the Beatles?

    If we go by total sales both globally and in the US… as well as thousands of bands who have grown up with learning to play guitar, (and also keyboard) and drums…then we have to give the nod to the Beatles who helped define western music and shape it into what it is today right now.

    At best, there’s been Harry Connick Jr. whose singing career petered out rather quickly after a few yrs of relevancy. And….oh, Michael Buble. But Buble sounds more like Bobby Darin than anyone so….that’s about it.

    Even Elvis had more influence than Sinatra. But certainly the Beatles have to be first for the twentieth century. Unlike Sinatra, they actually wrote most of their own songs.

    • Replies: @Niccolo Salo
    Within 50 years from now, the consensus will be that Kraftwerk is the most influential group of the 20th century.
    , @Jonathan Silber
    Good, yes. Talented with a great gift? No question about it.

    Relevant for today?….

    uh, no.

    If we go by total sales both globally and in the US...then we have to give the nod to the Beatles who helped define western music and shape it into what it is today right now.

    If we go by total sales here and abroad, then McDonald's, which can boast of Billions Sold, takes the prize for the cuisine Most Relevant For Today.
  68. @leper messiah
    I am a baby boomer raised on sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. Never listened to Sinatra a lick in my youth (late 60s/70s).

    Then, three years ago, my daughter, a freshman in college at the time, got into performing YouTube "make-up videos" which were all the rage at the time. This is when a girl, using a live model (her best friend from high school), demonstrates techniques for applying make-up to achieve maximum beauty and fashion.

    So...she comes out with one that has "The Way You Look Tonight" as the song that brings it all together at the end. I was astonished...I mean...where did a 18 year-old-Millenial come up with such a fantastic song to accompany her video? Two very pretty girls...with this incredibly romantic, swinging song...well...it was a work of art. I passed it along to work colleagues and the video went viral in minor way.

    It was at that time that this old rocker really came to truly appreciate Ole Blue Eyes...he was something else. One of a kind and there will never be another like him.

    BTW - this is a nice topic for a Friday evening with cocktail in hand. Music, classical American music, great 80's movie videos that others have uploaded (loved that Strangers in the Night one from Lost in America. I plan to check that out on NetFlix). Check out "The Way You Look Tonight"...if you cannot get laid with this one, there is no hope!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9ZGKALMMuc

    Sinatra hit the scene with the same vibe (i.e. pure grain virility – see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68SgQLKnlYM) Metallica did in the early 80s (and Mozart in the 1780s, etc..), he just kept it up for the better part of 60 years.

  69. @Muse
    Unequivocally the best at what he did.

    Sinatra had a phenomenal timbre/tone, impeccable musicality and perfect diction.

    Most importantly, he was able to resonate from his head, nose, mouth and chest at the same time.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_resonation

    I have never heard any other singer able to do it. It was as if his whole body resonated like a finely tuned carillon bell or a hand bell. I suspect his physiology was perfect for his type of crooning.

    And, he isn’t on top anymore. Most of the new generations have little idea who he was. This isn’t 1963 anymore.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    This isn’t 1963 anymore.
     
    Great artists who stand the test of time typically fall out of fashion for a generation or two before being rediscovered. Shakespeare and Bach being the two most famous examples.

    Trump is channeling Sinatra's ZFG vibe.
  70. @Former Darfur
    Sinatra and Elvis were both very, very good with the right material. But they both had plenty of stinkers later in their careers; for example, take a listen to Sinatra’s cover of “Mrs. Robinson” – if you dare.

    Frank had several stinkers, but his "Mrs. Robinson" isn't one of them. Indeed, it's one of the few things in his oeuvre that is funny as hell, and Frank had to know it.

    I'm thinking it's a swipe at folkie seriousness and also at Joe D., who he had a hard-on for after he was not allowed to pay his respects at Marilyn's funeral.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOtCxVGSzh

    Let’s get to it. The main reason why Sinatra had stinkers later in his career was because he couldn’t relate to the 60s generation and beyond. Time had passed him by. He wasn’t the main attraction anymore, the Beatles had seen to that.

    Can’t ever imagine Sinatra trying to rap, it would’ve been awful. And a desperate attempt to stay relevant as singing about peace, love, the animals, being green, etc.

    Please.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    He did disco takes on two of his old classics-- "All or Nothing at All" and "Night and Day"-- and they were pretty regrettable, in my estimation. Still, as a Sinatraphile who owns almost his entire studio output, inter alia, I think that most of his dreck actually came in his Columbia years (1943-1952), not during his Reprise years (1960-1988). I have listened to the Reprise trunk (20 CDs), from start to finish, scores of times, over these past twenty years, and I never feel like skipping discs, nor even individual songs. Some of his previously unreleased tracks are exceptional. Yes, he was at the height of his powers in the mid-1950s, in his early Capitol years; but, his Reprise years included a much larger and wider variety of material. His voice was perfectly suited for "September of My Years"-- my favorite album-- in 1965. I also enjoy his early work, with Harry James (1939) and Tommy Dorsey (1940-1942), when his youthful voice was much more delicate. As someone who was a Beatlemaniac, in his youth, while also listening to my older brother's Sinatra and Dean Martin albums, I do not feel like I have to abjure the music of my childhood, adolescence and young adulthood, now that I am an old man; neither do I feel that I need to apologize, to those hipsters who view rock 'n' roll as the highest musical art form, for my personal preference for crooners and chanteuses, in my dotage.
    , @Former Darfur
    Sinatra's career low (musically) was actually in the early fifties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maGuLEgyIZk

    He did a complete bodge of several 70s pop-rock songs in that time period to be sure, but on others he did a good job, and as I've said before, the funniest thing in his catalog is "Mrs. Robinson". But none beat this for pure awful.

    Frank was great in some movie roles and lame in others, but he took his music dead seriously, and so the dog rockets are pretty rare.
  71. @International Jew

    What seems to have changed Trump’s mind is a book: Adios America by Ann Coulter. The phrase “political book of the year” is a usually an !empty compliment, but if the phrase ever described any book, Adios America is it. In its pages, Trump found the message that would convulse the Republican primary and upend the dynastic hopes of former-frontrunner Jeb Bush. Perhaps no single writer has had such immediate impact on a presidential election since Harriet Beecher Stowe.
     
    That's pretty amazing.

    Coulter on Twitter tonight:

  72. Steyn’s audio series is great (on the same site). While I haven’t listened to the Sinatra series yet, the Johnny Mercer set of four is wonderful and I’ve listened to it multiple times. The Paul Simon, Artie Shaw, Sammie Cahn et al. all are good. It’s not always easy to find on the site, so here’s the link:

    http://www.steynonline.com/audio-archive/

  73. @Former Darfur
    I like Dean and Frank both. Dean was the more likable, the more relaxed, a way easier person to be around. And his against-type portrayal of the captain on the original Airport influenced a generation of airline crews to adopt a certain style. Contra Tom Wolfe, no airline pilot consciously emulated Yeager, but a lot of pilots went out of their way to be like Dean Martin, and a lot of mechanics emulated George Kennedy.

    The only person on earth that doesn't like Dean is now a lot like him at the podium, if not quite as benevolent:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntZ0APFF9B4

    It’s like Dean Martin is inhabiting his body. Especially interesting since Deano was not a huge fan of the Stones:

    Sinatra (and Martin) may not have been the greatest guys in the world but at least their children loved them. More than you can for Bing Crosby and some others.

  74. @Steve Sailer
    Elvis was an incredible singer. His problem was he was too polite, wasn't ornery enough to insist upon taking control of his career the way Sinatra did in his late thirties.

    Reading a cheap old paperback called “The last days of Elvis” that I found for a quarter at a yard sale. It has the amusing story of Elvis having a brief rebellion after being scolded for giving away huge gifts to total strangers. He basically ran away to show up at the Whitehouse door and meet with President Nixon. Its pretty clear throughout that the Cornel and his team handled every single aspect of Elvis’ existence and business for him, and he got to live like a big sexed up child. A pretty good arrangement for all involved except rock critics. I find his movie music fun as hell as it has silly camp value and cheese.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    IIRC, the Colonel also got 50% of Elvis's earnings.
  75. @Former Darfur
    Years ago, I worked at a plant office with a female co-worker I really had a fascination for, but I had, and have a strict rule about not dating co-workers. She was about twelve or thirteen years older than me and was very much in the Farrah Fawcett mold: born in Texas into moderate affluence, raised in California, moved to the Rust Belt for a relationship that bombed and was biding her time until she could go back West in the style she was accustomed to. She was trim, athletic, a bottle blonde but very much in the cheerleader pom pom girl mode. When I was offered another gig, I decided to go for it and ask her out, since I would be leaving and if things turned sour, it wouldn't affect either of us at work.

    I found out she was into Willie Nelson. Bigtime. So I got two good, but not too good, seats to a Willie Nelson concert which was going on in the next slightly bigger town over, and I asked her out. She accepted, because, well, she really liked Willie. Or she said she did: I think for her country music was an affectation, she probably secretly preferred something else, but she accepted and I didn't argue.

    Never having listened to Willie except in three minute segments of his studio recordings on radio, I found the show okay at first, but as it went on, I started getting uncomfortable. The musicians were good, and the songs well written (as a songwriter, I have a fair bit of respect for Willie to this day) but something really bothered me about the playing. After a while, I realized what was going on: Willie was like listening to an old car running that lost the hold down clamp for the distributor and the timing was going all over the place. Plus which, Willie's guitar playing sounded like a playing card through a bicycle spoke. After an hour, I was in abject misery. I would have walked out except for my date, who I could tell was indifferent to the music itself but really was into the image of really liking the stuff.

    Somehow, I got through the show, which was really long, and took my date to her house. It was a small but elegantly, femininely appointed house, and in her bedroom was a magnificent four-poster canopy bed. We made good use of it, and after it was over I remember thinking, Gee, that was great.....but damn, it wasn't worth listening to that discombobulated old goat for three-plus hours!

    You should have become a musician yourself, or a sound engineer like Alan Parsons or a producer like Phil Spector or perhaps a songwriter like Kris Kristofferson. Too bad you didn’t. But I’m glad you were able to fornicate and debauch your former coworker and relate this to iSteve readers. Thanks, …

    • Replies: @anon
    You should have become a musician yourself, or a sound engineer like Alan Parsons

    As long as we're going on tangents, I'd like to say that I've always really been fond of that song "Eye In The Sky" by Alan Parsons. I have a soft spot for those seventies soft rock songs that have a really disturbing or unsettling message, when you actually listen to the lyrics. Like pretty much everything Steely Dan put out for awhile.
    , @Former Darfur
    Lighten up.

    It's not like I nailed Lauren Bacall on top of Humphrey Bogart's coffin or something.

    (Which I don't think Frank really did...but that people would even believe it is bad enough.)
    , @Reg Cæsar

    …or perhaps a songwriter like Kris Kristofferson.
     
    If Darfur's story didn't creep you out enough, consider this: Kristofferson is older than John McCain.
  76. @leper messiah
    I am a baby boomer raised on sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. Never listened to Sinatra a lick in my youth (late 60s/70s).

    Then, three years ago, my daughter, a freshman in college at the time, got into performing YouTube "make-up videos" which were all the rage at the time. This is when a girl, using a live model (her best friend from high school), demonstrates techniques for applying make-up to achieve maximum beauty and fashion.

    So...she comes out with one that has "The Way You Look Tonight" as the song that brings it all together at the end. I was astonished...I mean...where did a 18 year-old-Millenial come up with such a fantastic song to accompany her video? Two very pretty girls...with this incredibly romantic, swinging song...well...it was a work of art. I passed it along to work colleagues and the video went viral in minor way.

    It was at that time that this old rocker really came to truly appreciate Ole Blue Eyes...he was something else. One of a kind and there will never be another like him.

    BTW - this is a nice topic for a Friday evening with cocktail in hand. Music, classical American music, great 80's movie videos that others have uploaded (loved that Strangers in the Night one from Lost in America. I plan to check that out on NetFlix). Check out "The Way You Look Tonight"...if you cannot get laid with this one, there is no hope!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9ZGKALMMuc

    And here I thought your youth was around ’86.

  77. My favorite Sinatra record? It’s not a very original or idiosyncratic choice, but as the apogee of an era, you can’t beat 1956′s I’ve Got You Under My Skin.

    Steyn says he has a Japanese import CD on which the song is listed as I’ve Got You Under My Sink.

    Sinatra is the last person I’d want to hear sing that lyric. It might be true!

    • Replies: @D. K.
    Sinatra did a beautiful rendition of "There's a Flaw in My Flue" (lyric by Johnny Burke):

    ***

    I used to sit by my fireplace
    And dream about you.
    But now that won't do
    There's a flaw in my flue

    Your lovely face in my fireplace
    Was all that I saw
    But now it won't draw
    My flue has a flaw

    From every beautiful ember, a memory arose
    Now I try to remember, and smoke gets in my nose

    It's not as sweet by the unit-heat
    To dream about you
    So darling, adieu
    There's a flaw in my flue

    ***

    It was jokingly added to the "Close to You" album, when it was first played for the head honcho at Capitol Records, and he never even noticed that Sinatra had been giving a serious reading to an old Bing Crosby novelty song. It was left off of the vinyl LP, back in 1957, but eventually was added as a bonus track, when the album was released on CD, decades later.
  78. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Trelane
    You should have become a musician yourself, or a sound engineer like Alan Parsons or a producer like Phil Spector or perhaps a songwriter like Kris Kristofferson. Too bad you didn't. But I'm glad you were able to fornicate and debauch your former coworker and relate this to iSteve readers. Thanks, ...

    You should have become a musician yourself, or a sound engineer like Alan Parsons

    As long as we’re going on tangents, I’d like to say that I’ve always really been fond of that song “Eye In The Sky” by Alan Parsons. I have a soft spot for those seventies soft rock songs that have a really disturbing or unsettling message, when you actually listen to the lyrics. Like pretty much everything Steely Dan put out for awhile.

    • Agree: Spmoore8, ATX Hipster
    • Replies: @Trelane
    I'd agree with you here except Donald Fagan of Steely Dan makes me want to drink scotch wiskey all night long and I'm afraid the people down the hall know who we are. I think I want to drink a Zombie from a coco shell, at the good hotel wearing my high heeled sneakers.
  79. Hardcore Sinatra and Rat Pack fans will love these:

    Sammy Davis Jr. on drums & vibes

    Sammy Davis Jr “The Girl from Ipanema”

    Rufus Jones “I’ll Be Glad When You’re Dead You Rascal You”

    Judy Garland “Swing low sweet chariot”

    Dean Martin “Send Me The Pillow That You Dream On”

  80. It would appear as though Old Blue Eyes is a little too cishet and blue-eyed to merit a Google Doodle.

    • Replies: @Anon
    "It would appear as though Old Blue Eyes is a little too cishet and blue-eyed to merit a Google Doodle."

    Also too unhip by today's standards.

    I suppose Sinatra was a standout in his time as one of the few singers who really stamped other people's materials with personality.

    Before the rise of singer-performer of 60s Rock, the usual shtick was composers are composers and performers are performers. Composers mostly wrote impersonal songs with mass appeal, and performers were chosen cuz they could sing. A few like Armstrong could do both.

    Most performers certainly could sing(technically) but were without distinctive personality. Who remembers Perry Como anymore? But Sinatra stamped the material with his personality, and a Sinatra treatment of a song is like no other.

    In that sense, he did it his way, and I suppose Sid Vicious' twist on that song is a kind of barbed tribute.

    But one thing about Sinatra never appealed to me. The lack of tension.
    There's too much self-satisfaction, an ego satiated with self, stomach filled with a good meal and ready to lay back, back-slapping of others and being back-slapped back.

    His city songs: San Francisco, Chicago My Kind of Town, NY NY, and etc are so celebratory and shmoozy. Hearty like a big breakfast at a family hotel.

    No irony, no nuance, no shades. It's like driving down the center of Las Vegas with all the lights blaring.
    Never liked Broadway music for the same reason.

    Elvis was a great performer and personality too, but I never liked his brand of rock n roll either cuz it too was shtick.

    If I do have favorite among the shtickers, it's Engelbert Humperdinck. He could be powerful and light at once, like with his rendition of Last Waltz.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dkTwEfohRM

    PS: Good song by Jewess:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQPGsjHXZY
    , @Jefferson
    "t would appear as though Old Blue Eyes is a little too cishet and blue-eyed to merit a Google Doodle."

    Frank Sinatra is too Stale and Pale for Nonwhites who vote Democrat, which is the main demographic that Google caters to.

    What percentage of The Black Lives Matter members can name at least 1 Frank Sinatra song right off the top of their heads without having to Google it?
  81. @anon
    You should have become a musician yourself, or a sound engineer like Alan Parsons

    As long as we're going on tangents, I'd like to say that I've always really been fond of that song "Eye In The Sky" by Alan Parsons. I have a soft spot for those seventies soft rock songs that have a really disturbing or unsettling message, when you actually listen to the lyrics. Like pretty much everything Steely Dan put out for awhile.

    I’d agree with you here except Donald Fagan of Steely Dan makes me want to drink scotch wiskey all night long and I’m afraid the people down the hall know who we are. I think I want to drink a Zombie from a coco shell, at the good hotel wearing my high heeled sneakers.

  82. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    And, he isn't on top anymore. Most of the new generations have little idea who he was. This isn't 1963 anymore.

    This isn’t 1963 anymore.

    Great artists who stand the test of time typically fall out of fashion for a generation or two before being rediscovered. Shakespeare and Bach being the two most famous examples.

    Trump is channeling Sinatra’s ZFG vibe.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Oh whatever. OR....they simply fade away and that's that. He had his time and his time is now past. People into Gangsta, R&B, Country, etc.

    Remember, the zenith of Sinatra's greatest popularity there were fewer music genres around. Rock was barely in the crib during this time and Rap was non-existent.

    To wit, Sinatra's greatest fan base remain the old and the dead so the idea that a few generations from now he'll be making a solid smash comeback when that world he inhabited is gone forever...come on.

    The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It's gone. Forever.

    Again, this isn't 1963 anymore.
  83. ‘Fraid I never “got” Sinatra the singer. As an actor and public figure though, he defined a sort of mid-century, scrappy American tough guy, nourished by big-city, East Coast ethnic roots. (I can listen to Martin, Martino, Como, A. Williams, and a few others a bit more than Sinatra, FWIW)

  84. @Rapparee
    During a few consecutive summers working in a supermarket that played mostly summer-themed songs over and over and over for hours on end, I developed a passionate and probably-unwarranted adoration for Frank's rendition of "Summer Wind". It was one of the only songs that wasn't absolutely sickening after the 150th rendition.

    The Go-Gos' "Vacation", on the other hand, still makes my skin crawl.

    A place I worked for about 5 mos. had a loop too , Not any particular theme just random songs . I only remember one of them and never got sick of it .

    The Mills Brothers : “more than 2,000 recordings that combined sold more than 50 million copies” I used to listen to their records at my grandparents home . you can buy their CD’s on Amazon so someone must remember them .

    • Replies: @D. K.
    The Mills Brothers were the idols of Dean Martin-- who was, in turn, the idol of Elvis Presley!
  85. @Former Darfur
    I like Dean and Frank both. Dean was the more likable, the more relaxed, a way easier person to be around. And his against-type portrayal of the captain on the original Airport influenced a generation of airline crews to adopt a certain style. Contra Tom Wolfe, no airline pilot consciously emulated Yeager, but a lot of pilots went out of their way to be like Dean Martin, and a lot of mechanics emulated George Kennedy.

    The only person on earth that doesn't like Dean is now a lot like him at the podium, if not quite as benevolent:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntZ0APFF9B4

    Mr Richards also argued that if you close your eyes Bruce Springsteen sounds like Neil Diamond.

  86. Sinatra sucks, here is some proper singing from Tim Baker.

    When he hears it came in at 4:12, he looks worried

    4:12 is when the above song starts to get good.

  87. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Good, yes. Talented with a great gift? No question about it.

    Relevant for today?....

    uh, no.

    He's dated. Stuck in that time zone pre November 22, 1963. Starting in Feb. 9 1964, NY, Ed Sullivan show which introduced the US to a new group from Britain which changed the course of western music for the rest of the century, Sinatra's been left behind by the rock medium which completely overtook his style of singing.

    The next generation really won't have a strong idea who Sinatra was. The millenials chiefly remember him as "Oh? Didn't he do those duets with Bono and...and...uh, all those other oldsters?"

    Who made a lasting impact on popular music over last half century....Sinatra or the Beatles?

    If we go by total sales both globally and in the US... as well as thousands of bands who have grown up with learning to play guitar, (and also keyboard) and drums...then we have to give the nod to the Beatles who helped define western music and shape it into what it is today right now.

    At best, there's been Harry Connick Jr. whose singing career petered out rather quickly after a few yrs of relevancy. And....oh, Michael Buble. But Buble sounds more like Bobby Darin than anyone so....that's about it.

    Even Elvis had more influence than Sinatra. But certainly the Beatles have to be first for the twentieth century. Unlike Sinatra, they actually wrote most of their own songs.

    Within 50 years from now, the consensus will be that Kraftwerk is the most influential group of the 20th century.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Uh, yes, all three of them which is about twice and a half the numbers who have heard of Kraftwerk now.

    Within 50 yrs from now, the Chairman of the Board won't even be recalled for anything much less remembered.

    Lets see: Take an informal poll of adults 30 and under, say ages 15-29.

    Ask them: Who has heard of SInatra? Then ask them who has heard of the Beatles. Its very possible that many heard of both. Then break it down by asking "Ok, name as many songs sung by Sinatra as you can without asking your parents or grandparents. Then, name some Beatles songs."

    And see which side wins hands down.

    Didn't Sinatra cover Yesterday and Something? Both Beatles songs by the way...

    , @Former Darfur
    Fifty years from now, it's nearly certain that what will be thought most important about the twentieth century would be laughable or incomprehensible today. That's how history works.
  88. Anonymous [AKA "Linder"] says:

    The list seems to contain no songs from his greatest album – Watertown – a concept album about divorce. Yes, that’s right – a concept album about divorce. I think it was the last album to make the transition to CD. Perhaps becuase it was personal.

    Sinatra made it in ’69 while he had become more of a recluse after his divorce from Mia Farrow in ’68. They must have re-kindled the flame, because Farrow claims that her son Ronan (born ’87) is the son of Sinatra.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    "Watertown" was done in conjunction with Bob Gaudio, of Four Seasons fame. It was intended as a television special. The special was cancelled, but the album went forward.
  89. @Former Darfur
    Sinatra in concert, several times introduces this as "this little folk song". I thought he was being facetious, but he wasn't: that was the term they pitched it to him as.

    Probably 1961 was the year of Peak Frank. He was just starting Reprise, rock and roll could still be dismissed as the stuff of kiddies or "cretinous goons" as he preferred to phrase it, and he hadn't really been whacked in the balls by life in general yet.

    The audience at the "Come Swing With Me" session:

    https://thelabelscouturier.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/photo-23.jpg?w=560&h=455

    The audience at the “Come Swing With Me” session:

    https://thelabelscouturier.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/photo-23.jpg?w=560&h=455

    Poor Ray Charles couldn’t see what was sitting next to him.

  90. @Trumpmonster
    A few here have talked about his personal life disparagingly, none of you betas were ever in the position to turn down all that ass nor will you ever be. It's really SJW to judge him that way. You sound like the female journalists that Steve always talks about hoping the world conforms to you and that girls like you because you are "nice" and would never cheat on them.

    A few here have talked about his[Sinatra’s] personal life disparagingly, none of you betas were ever in the position to turn down all that ass nor will you ever be.

    If a man has reached his middle age and can still think of nothing better to do with his time than chase tail, he’s a case of arrested development.

    • Replies: @5371
    Victor Hugo says hello.
  91. I have to say that I find the passions and avocations of many of the soi-disant dons of the alt-right to be passing strange. Does anyone else find it odd that Mark Steyn spends his free time cutting cat albums and writing essays on 100 Sinatra songs, and that iSteve readers are having a mostly one-sided and adulatory debate about the relative merits of Old Blue Eyes?

    I don’t care about Sinatra. What does this have to do with anything? Parsing the life and legacy of a long-dead crooner is a decidedly First-World pastime undertaken in a decidedly Third-Turning mood, and that just isn’t the world we live in anymore. This is for anther time and place, not for the here and now.

  92. @Blobby5
    Funny how people lionize Il Deuche, was he really that good? Have heard stories of nightmarish behavior on the casino help, does talent absolve him of these personal sins?

    Sinatra was an extraordinary singer. His ability to phrase a song was second to no one. That said, he was not a nice man by reputation. Yes, he did occasional nice things for people, everyone has that potential, but overall he was not a nice man. The challenge is to separate the art from the behavior. Van Gogh was nuts. Does that detract from his art? Some very nice, kind and gentle people are miserable artists. Should one prefer the nice guy over the bastard when it comes to art simply because of behavior? I can recall a woman opera singer who had a glorious voice. Alas, her career burned out early on the basis of extreme nastiness. I still enjoy listening to her recordings but would not cross the street to meet her.

    Listening to Sinatra sing is a lesson in communicating the meaning of the song. Sometimes I do not care for his interpretation in later work. His early stuff is great. Knock out the crap of his later years, “Strangers in the Night”, “My Way” and that atrocity he did with his daughter. At the moment “Come Fly With Me” ear-worming its way into consciousness. The phrasing, the syncopation, the emphases. Perfect. But no, I wouldn’t necessarily want to be in the first-class cabin with him.

  93. @Anon
    I'm a late-era baby boomer raised on rock and roll, and I still don't like Sinatra.

    *Pounds table hard*

    Guys like Sinatra and their music are what we were all rebelling against, for God's sake. As far as I'm concerned, if it came after Baroque and before 1955, it sucks donkey balls.

    Ridiculous. There’s no reason one can’t enjoy and appreciate the Great American Songbook era of “vocals” artists like Sinatra, Ella, Bing, etc, along with the transitional artists like Elvis and the rock-era artists that followed.

    And why not? Would you eat the same meal, prepared the same way, day after day after day, as a form of protest against all other cuisines in the world?

    We may all end up forced to repudiate our bygone popular singers, and even our early rock muscians, in the ever-continuing Mao-style road of ‘cultural revolution’/political repression we’re marching joylessly on….but until then, the ability to cultivate catholic tastes in music, pop or otherwise, remains one of the indisputable joys and benefits of the Western world.

  94. @SPMoore8
    I will break protocol and reply to myself, hopefully to get some help:

    Here's Dick Dale's arguably most famous recording, Misirlou:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y3h9p_c5-M

    Here's Martin Denny's Exotica Cover:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5owZr9vP7c

    Finally, coming full circle (since Dale was the father of Surf Music), here's the Surfaris "Wipe Out":

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clr53fWVbTM

    -- My contention is that the opening to "Wipe Out" is indebted to the Denny cover. Although if anyone has any inputs on the snake charmer in the Denny video, I'm all ears.

    For 3 minutes of serious guitar playing, watch Stevie Ray Vaughan & Dick Dale play Pipeline.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
  95. @BigRedEyeOfJupiter
    Reading a cheap old paperback called "The last days of Elvis" that I found for a quarter at a yard sale. It has the amusing story of Elvis having a brief rebellion after being scolded for giving away huge gifts to total strangers. He basically ran away to show up at the Whitehouse door and meet with President Nixon. Its pretty clear throughout that the Cornel and his team handled every single aspect of Elvis' existence and business for him, and he got to live like a big sexed up child. A pretty good arrangement for all involved except rock critics. I find his movie music fun as hell as it has silly camp value and cheese.

    IIRC, the Colonel also got 50% of Elvis’s earnings.

  96. @Anonymous
    The list seems to contain no songs from his greatest album - Watertown - a concept album about divorce. Yes, that's right - a concept album about divorce. I think it was the last album to make the transition to CD. Perhaps becuase it was personal.

    Sinatra made it in '69 while he had become more of a recluse after his divorce from Mia Farrow in '68. They must have re-kindled the flame, because Farrow claims that her son Ronan (born '87) is the son of Sinatra.

    “Watertown” was done in conjunction with Bob Gaudio, of Four Seasons fame. It was intended as a television special. The special was cancelled, but the album went forward.

  97. Bob Dylan’s Shadows in the Night, released last year, seems to me a pure tribute to Sinatra. Pretty sure Sinatra recorded each song on the album and at least some of the arrangements are lifted (in a good way) from Sinatra’s seminal recordings.

    If you like Dylan, you should like it. His ability to invoke much of the spender of a large theater orchestra with just a four or five piece band is neat and his expression wrings the soul from me at least. I sometimes just stop breathing while I listen, I feel so sad. You know, the sun burnt hands I used to know and all that…

  98. @donut
    A place I worked for about 5 mos. had a loop too , Not any particular theme just random songs . I only remember one of them and never got sick of it .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8cvpXm1Ze4

    The Mills Brothers : "more than 2,000 recordings that combined sold more than 50 million copies" I used to listen to their records at my grandparents home . you can buy their CD's on Amazon so someone must remember them .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P97iQAWpkdg

    The Mills Brothers were the idols of Dean Martin– who was, in turn, the idol of Elvis Presley!

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Dean also really liked Bing Crosby. Some of his phrasing and crooning comes from Bing.
  99. @Niccolo Salo
    Within 50 years from now, the consensus will be that Kraftwerk is the most influential group of the 20th century.

    Uh, yes, all three of them which is about twice and a half the numbers who have heard of Kraftwerk now.

    Within 50 yrs from now, the Chairman of the Board won’t even be recalled for anything much less remembered.

    Lets see: Take an informal poll of adults 30 and under, say ages 15-29.

    Ask them: Who has heard of SInatra? Then ask them who has heard of the Beatles. Its very possible that many heard of both. Then break it down by asking “Ok, name as many songs sung by Sinatra as you can without asking your parents or grandparents. Then, name some Beatles songs.”

    And see which side wins hands down.

    Didn’t Sinatra cover Yesterday and Something? Both Beatles songs by the way…

    • Replies: @anon
    While I agree that Beatles masterpieces such as "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" and "Yellow Submarine" will contine to be highly influential on future generations, he's probably right about Kraftwerk.

    The problem with the Beatles is that there's just too much hype. There are lots of people who buy Beatles albums, but it's just because they feel like they're supposed to. They never actually listen to them. So, the average person under thirty probably won't know too many Beatles songs either, except the ones that are still played on classic radio, which they probably won't listen to. And I doubt too many of them will be really all that impressed by "I Wanna Hold Your Hand".

    Maybe they should be, I don't know. But I don't think they will be.
    , @D. K.
    Yes, and the Beatles covered Meredith Willson's "Till There Was You" from "The Music Man" (1957), and Bobby Scott and Ric Marlow's "A Taste of Honey" from the Broadway version (1960) of the British play of the same name (1958)-- although, the Liverpudlian lads probably knew both songs from those plays' movie versions (1962 and 1961, respectively)!?!
  100. @D. K.
    The Mills Brothers were the idols of Dean Martin-- who was, in turn, the idol of Elvis Presley!

    Dean also really liked Bing Crosby. Some of his phrasing and crooning comes from Bing.

  101. @Desiderius

    This isn’t 1963 anymore.
     
    Great artists who stand the test of time typically fall out of fashion for a generation or two before being rediscovered. Shakespeare and Bach being the two most famous examples.

    Trump is channeling Sinatra's ZFG vibe.

    Oh whatever. OR….they simply fade away and that’s that. He had his time and his time is now past. People into Gangsta, R&B, Country, etc.

    Remember, the zenith of Sinatra’s greatest popularity there were fewer music genres around. Rock was barely in the crib during this time and Rap was non-existent.

    To wit, Sinatra’s greatest fan base remain the old and the dead so the idea that a few generations from now he’ll be making a solid smash comeback when that world he inhabited is gone forever…come on.

    The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It’s gone. Forever.

    Again, this isn’t 1963 anymore.

    • Replies: @anon
    The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It’s gone. Forever.

    Well, OK, but if you're going to make the whole "they were so influential" argument, then wouldn't Ike Turner be even more influential than the Beatles? He had what was considered to be the first "rock 'n' roll" song. But how many people still listen to or care about Ike Turner today?

    If it hadn't been for guys like Chuck Berry and Fats Domino, there wouldn't have been a rock 'n' roll idiom for the Beatles to play with. But does anyone really care about Chuck Berry anymore?

    It's kind of inescapable that a large part of the lasting affection for the Beatles comes from the fact that they were popular when the Baby Boomer generation was reaching adolescence and young adulthood.
    , @Former Darfur
    The Beatles are as" obsolete" today as Frank was in 1968, if not more so.

    Let's face it: Lennon and McCartney were a good songwriting team, but not the best in history by any standard, and as time goes by, the Beatles are remembered more for their notoriety, driving girls to screaming, seat-pissing, fainting fits like Elvis and Frank before, than for any eternal relevance of their music. Dozens of bands have lasted longer by multiples. Beatles songs are still performed to be sure, but no more than many other people's.

    But in a hundred years, even fifty, the opinion will be different still.
    , @Desiderius

    Oh whatever. OR….they simply fade away and that’s that. He had his time and his time is now past. People into Gangsta, R&B, Country, etc.

     

    Heh.

    Sinatra was the original Gangsta.

    Remember, the zenith of Sinatra’s greatest popularity there were fewer music genres around. Rock was barely in the crib during this time and Rap was non-existent.
     
    The original Reformed Hymnody was notorious for busting windows out of meeting halls. Pope was rapping in the early 1700s, and the Nibelungenlied is chock full of Macks talking smack.

    To wit, Sinatra’s greatest fan base remain the old and the dead so the idea that a few generations from now he’ll be making a solid smash comeback when that world he inhabited is gone forever…come on.
     
    Sinatra in Pal Joey was Roissy before Roissy was a gleam in his momma's eye. Boomers were too busy trying to tear down their alpha parents to care. That's not where we are today, to put it mildly.

    It’s gone. Forever.
     
    Your ignorance of the past doesn't inspire confidence in your capacity to tell the future.

    Again, this isn’t 1963 anymore.
     
    Progs argue by the clock because that's all they've got. What's your excuse?
    , @Anon
    "The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It’s gone. Forever."

    Yet, Sinatra-ism is triumphant even though current music isn't Sinatra-like.

    Sinatra was a performer than composer-artists.

    Performance was key.

    With the Beatles, performance became perfunctory after awhile.
    They became such a phenom that teenyboppers came to scream than listen.
    Beatles admitted they couldn't even hear themselves play, and the crowd sure couldn't hear nothing. So, their performance, which had been tight and intense in the beginning, just became lax and routine. And in 1966, they quit touring altogether and decided to become performer-artists, like Brian Wilson who quit touring and hired Glen Campbell to fill in for him.

    In the 60s, the cult of the artist-composer took precedence. Dylan also left the concert scene in 1966 and hid out in Woodstock and was more interested in composition and recording that performing. He made JOHN WESLEY HARDING and BASEMENT TAPES(released on bootlegs until officially released in 75).

    There continued to be powerful stage acts like the Who and Stones and Doors, but even they were about the stunt and phenom than about well-done stage acts.
    The Who was unpredictable, and were hit and miss on stage. Stones concerts were often mobbed by concert goers. Jim Morrison was often stoned out of his mind, and his stage acts turned into psycho-dramas. It was as if such wildness and craziness were more authentic. And the Grateful Dead was always hit or miss. Some days, it was on, some days they were off.

    Sinatra belonged to an older school. Good performance mattered. Professionalism and consistency and planning mattered. Choreography mattered.

    And when we look at today's acts, everything is well-planned, formulated, tightly controlled, rehearsed many times over, and etc.
    Taylor Swift is like a windup doll. Rihanna's 'umbrella' is one hell of a sizzling hot ho act. If trash can be masterpiece, that is it. Truly hot sizzling ho stuff. More negresses like her, and negro men might never look at a white ho. Anyway, it's very professionally done. And the choreography is very slick and 'classic'. Artificial and broadway-like than raw and authentic like Woostock or Altamont or Monterey.
    Even if obscene, it's visually very clean and scrubbed. It's like a 50s musical number.

    Also, formula is so important now. Young people now know what they like: what kind of rhythm, what kind of beat, what kind of aura, what kind of movement, and etc.
    And the industry just cranks this out over and over and over, and kids eat it up like cookies and cake. Kids are not asking for a new and different and personal like Neil Young or new Dylan or new artist-composer. They are happy with the same rap crap, Taylor Swift songs, and etc. The same Rihanna hot smoking ho stuff. J-pop, Euro-pop, K-pop, Latin-pop, etc pretty much follow the same formula.

    So, in that sense, Sinatra-ism has won.

    Btw, even if most people don't listen to Sinatra, as long as there are movies, some of them will use his songs. Not to my taste, but some of them are great. And they are about men and women, as opposed to kids.

    The ending of BABY IT'S YOU. It's beautiful cuz they are dancing as man and woman than boy and girl. They will part but they share a maturity of emtions that can't be found in rock or youth pop.
  102. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Good, yes. Talented with a great gift? No question about it.

    Relevant for today?....

    uh, no.

    He's dated. Stuck in that time zone pre November 22, 1963. Starting in Feb. 9 1964, NY, Ed Sullivan show which introduced the US to a new group from Britain which changed the course of western music for the rest of the century, Sinatra's been left behind by the rock medium which completely overtook his style of singing.

    The next generation really won't have a strong idea who Sinatra was. The millenials chiefly remember him as "Oh? Didn't he do those duets with Bono and...and...uh, all those other oldsters?"

    Who made a lasting impact on popular music over last half century....Sinatra or the Beatles?

    If we go by total sales both globally and in the US... as well as thousands of bands who have grown up with learning to play guitar, (and also keyboard) and drums...then we have to give the nod to the Beatles who helped define western music and shape it into what it is today right now.

    At best, there's been Harry Connick Jr. whose singing career petered out rather quickly after a few yrs of relevancy. And....oh, Michael Buble. But Buble sounds more like Bobby Darin than anyone so....that's about it.

    Even Elvis had more influence than Sinatra. But certainly the Beatles have to be first for the twentieth century. Unlike Sinatra, they actually wrote most of their own songs.

    Good, yes. Talented with a great gift? No question about it.

    Relevant for today?….

    uh, no.

    If we go by total sales both globally and in the US…then we have to give the nod to the Beatles who helped define western music and shape it into what it is today right now.

    If we go by total sales here and abroad, then McDonald’s, which can boast of Billions Sold, takes the prize for the cuisine Most Relevant For Today.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    If we go by total sales here and abroad, then McDonald’s, which can boast of Billions Sold, takes the prize for the cuisine Most Relevant For Today.
     
    Yes because food and music are the same.
  103. @Reg Cæsar

    My favorite Sinatra record? It’s not a very original or idiosyncratic choice, but as the apogee of an era, you can’t beat 1956′s I’ve Got You Under My Skin.
     
    Steyn says he has a Japanese import CD on which the song is listed as I've Got You Under My Sink.

    Sinatra is the last person I'd want to hear sing that lyric. It might be true!

    Sinatra did a beautiful rendition of “There’s a Flaw in My Flue” (lyric by Johnny Burke):

    ***

    I used to sit by my fireplace
    And dream about you.
    But now that won’t do
    There’s a flaw in my flue

    Your lovely face in my fireplace
    Was all that I saw
    But now it won’t draw
    My flue has a flaw

    From every beautiful ember, a memory arose
    Now I try to remember, and smoke gets in my nose

    It’s not as sweet by the unit-heat
    To dream about you
    So darling, adieu
    There’s a flaw in my flue

    ***

    It was jokingly added to the “Close to You” album, when it was first played for the head honcho at Capitol Records, and he never even noticed that Sinatra had been giving a serious reading to an old Bing Crosby novelty song. It was left off of the vinyl LP, back in 1957, but eventually was added as a bonus track, when the album was released on CD, decades later.

  104. @Anonymous
    Speaking of artistic geniuses, Bret Easton Ellis defends James Deen:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bret-easton-ellis-james-deen-847935

    "The outspoken author and podcast host says his friend Deen — who starred in Ellis' 2013 film 'The Canyons' — is the victim of a jealous and "unstable" ex-girlfriend."

    So how do those two names appear if we are “speaking” of art or genius?

  105. Nobody mentioned the Velvet Fog, Mel Torme.

    Like Frank Sinatra over jazz.

    Mel Torme. Killin’ it.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    On Saturday afternoon, June 15, 1996, I wandered over to the Borders Bookstore at 330 South La Cienega Boulevard, near my home, and discovered that Mel Torme was in the store, autographing copies of his new 4-CD set, "The Mel Torme Collection: 1944-1985" (Rhino Records). As I browsed the store, they were playing the collection. As his autographing session was drawing to a close, I made an unusually impulsive buy, and then hurried to the end of the dwindling line to have my box set autographed. I literally was the last one in line, as far as I know. While he was gracious to me, he struck me as very haggard. He had been talking to some other customers about Ella Fitzgerald, and how she was the best singer there was. When I got home, I turned on my television, and the top news story was that Ella Fitzgerald had died, early that morning, at her Beverly Hills home. That explained for me why Mel Torme had looked so haggard, just a short time before.

    Although Sinatra is my favorite singer, I happen to agree with Mel Torme: Ella was the greatest singer in the era of recorded music! Mel Torme was a great singer himself, and I have loved the Rhino-issued box set that I bought, that Saturday afternoon, almost twenty years ago. Less than two months later, while in the midst of recording a tribute album in Ella Fitzgerald's honor, Mel Torme had a stroke; he never recorded again, and might not even have ever uttered another word!?! He died a few years later, after another stroke. Along with the aforementioned box set, I may highly recommend his autobiography, "It Wasn't All Velvet" (1988). Oh, and apropos of the season, Mel Torme and his songwriting partner, Bob Wells, co-wrote arguably the best secular Christmas song (with apologies to Irving Berlin, et al.!), entitled, fittingly enough, "The Christmas Song" (1946), as immortalized by the late, great Nat 'King' Cole. (Nat died, half a century ago, as of last February 15, when still only 45 years old! I happen to consider Nat Cole's singing voice to have been the most aesthetically satisfying one of them all.)
  106. Sinatra did a beautiful rendition of “There’s a Flaw in My Flue” (lyric by Johnny Burke):

    That didn’t make Dick & Harriet Jacobs’s encyclopædic Who Wrote That Song, so novelty it must have been.

    Burke was so Irish that Bing Crosby called him his leprechaun. Sammy Cahn, who succeeded Burke as Jimmy van Heusen’s lyricist (this is a van Heusen tune), said he always felt welcome at Burke’s parties, but was made uncomfortable by the host’s many Hymie jokes. That you could like a people yet still crack jokes about them is something that doesn’t compute in postmodern minds. (Similarly, when Graham Chapman “came out” to the Monty Python writing crew, Marty Feldman interjected, “This doesn’t mean we can’t do poof jokes .”)

    Burke and van Heusen ( Babcock) are one of the great landmarks of Anglo-Irish cooperation.

  107. Frank was also reputed to be, ah, well endowed. Ava Gardner reportedly said Sinatra was “only 110 pounds, but 10 pounds of it is c**k!” She would know.

    http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/w0007936.html

  108. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Let's get to it. The main reason why Sinatra had stinkers later in his career was because he couldn't relate to the 60s generation and beyond. Time had passed him by. He wasn't the main attraction anymore, the Beatles had seen to that.

    Can't ever imagine Sinatra trying to rap, it would've been awful. And a desperate attempt to stay relevant as singing about peace, love, the animals, being green, etc.

    Please.

    He did disco takes on two of his old classics– “All or Nothing at All” and “Night and Day”– and they were pretty regrettable, in my estimation. Still, as a Sinatraphile who owns almost his entire studio output, inter alia, I think that most of his dreck actually came in his Columbia years (1943-1952), not during his Reprise years (1960-1988). I have listened to the Reprise trunk (20 CDs), from start to finish, scores of times, over these past twenty years, and I never feel like skipping discs, nor even individual songs. Some of his previously unreleased tracks are exceptional. Yes, he was at the height of his powers in the mid-1950s, in his early Capitol years; but, his Reprise years included a much larger and wider variety of material. His voice was perfectly suited for “September of My Years”– my favorite album– in 1965. I also enjoy his early work, with Harry James (1939) and Tommy Dorsey (1940-1942), when his youthful voice was much more delicate. As someone who was a Beatlemaniac, in his youth, while also listening to my older brother’s Sinatra and Dean Martin albums, I do not feel like I have to abjure the music of my childhood, adolescence and young adulthood, now that I am an old man; neither do I feel that I need to apologize, to those hipsters who view rock ‘n’ roll as the highest musical art form, for my personal preference for crooners and chanteuses, in my dotage.

  109. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    It would appear as though Old Blue Eyes is a little too cishet and blue-eyed to merit a Google Doodle.

    “It would appear as though Old Blue Eyes is a little too cishet and blue-eyed to merit a Google Doodle.”

    Also too unhip by today’s standards.

    I suppose Sinatra was a standout in his time as one of the few singers who really stamped other people’s materials with personality.

    Before the rise of singer-performer of 60s Rock, the usual shtick was composers are composers and performers are performers. Composers mostly wrote impersonal songs with mass appeal, and performers were chosen cuz they could sing. A few like Armstrong could do both.

    Most performers certainly could sing(technically) but were without distinctive personality. Who remembers Perry Como anymore? But Sinatra stamped the material with his personality, and a Sinatra treatment of a song is like no other.

    In that sense, he did it his way, and I suppose Sid Vicious’ twist on that song is a kind of barbed tribute.

    But one thing about Sinatra never appealed to me. The lack of tension.
    There’s too much self-satisfaction, an ego satiated with self, stomach filled with a good meal and ready to lay back, back-slapping of others and being back-slapped back.

    His city songs: San Francisco, Chicago My Kind of Town, NY NY, and etc are so celebratory and shmoozy. Hearty like a big breakfast at a family hotel.

    No irony, no nuance, no shades. It’s like driving down the center of Las Vegas with all the lights blaring.
    Never liked Broadway music for the same reason.

    Elvis was a great performer and personality too, but I never liked his brand of rock n roll either cuz it too was shtick.

    If I do have favorite among the shtickers, it’s Engelbert Humperdinck. He could be powerful and light at once, like with his rendition of Last Waltz.

    PS: Good song by Jewess:

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    PS: Good song by Jewess:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQPGsjHXZY


    Eydie Gorme, nee Edith Gormezano, a Sephardess who in her youth was pretty and who sings beautifully. Note the jaw line and mouth, which provide a lot of airway.

    Other possible advantages we will leave to the imagination.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNpb8WsF6bc

    The whole crowd: Steve Allen, Dinah Shore (J), Steve and Eydie (J and Sephardic J), Frank Sinatra, and others:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbxoF4F0TrY
  110. @SPMoore8
    I will break protocol and reply to myself, hopefully to get some help:

    Here's Dick Dale's arguably most famous recording, Misirlou:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y3h9p_c5-M

    Here's Martin Denny's Exotica Cover:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5owZr9vP7c

    Finally, coming full circle (since Dale was the father of Surf Music), here's the Surfaris "Wipe Out":

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clr53fWVbTM

    -- My contention is that the opening to "Wipe Out" is indebted to the Denny cover. Although if anyone has any inputs on the snake charmer in the Denny video, I'm all ears.

    Released just days before the Six day war.

    Such a beautiful song.

  111. @Trumpmonster
    A few here have talked about his personal life disparagingly, none of you betas were ever in the position to turn down all that ass nor will you ever be. It's really SJW to judge him that way. You sound like the female journalists that Steve always talks about hoping the world conforms to you and that girls like you because you are "nice" and would never cheat on them.

    First Rule:
    If she cheats with you; she will cheat on you.

  112. @dee nile
    Van Heusen & Burke's "Here's That Rainy Day"

    Introduced, by Dolores Gray, in an otherwise flop:

    “Gray won the Tony Award for Best Lead Actress in a Musical for her role in Carnival in Flanders, even though this Broadway musical, with a script by Preston Sturges, ran for only six performances. She therefore holds a record that is unlikely to be broken: briefest run in a performance which still earned a Tony.”

  113. @Jimmy Docherty
    I've Got You Under My Skin is wonderful. I would nominate One For My Baby And One More For The Road as a top contender. I always figured being so small played into his flinty attitude. Also, I imagine he was dominated by his mother and saw his father be dominated thereby as well. Consider the fact that everybody knows that Frank went through a crisis of conscience when he became a Republican for his old buddy Reagan's sake: he was worried about betraying his mother's legacy. She was a staunch Democrat who must have been one of the few abortionists in New Jersey in the 1920-1930s who was not only a woman but also Italian Roman Catholic. Everybody knows that. But nobody knows anything about Frank's father, so maybe he was a bit of a nobody. I wonder if Frank had to take a big step to get over that weird upbringing. That being said, I love Old Blue Eyes, I lived on his music as an aspie high school kid.

    Marty Sinatra was a quiet and unassuming man. Frank adored him (even though Marty had thrown Frank out of the house, for a long period of time, in disapproval of his wanting to be a crooner!); but, Frank was his mother’s son. It was a love-hate relationship, but it was the relationship that clearly propelled him into becoming the man that he became. Dolly Sinatra died, along with a lifelong friend from Hoboken and their pilot, in a plane that Frank had leased, en route from Palm Springs to Las Vegas, to see her son perform. Their Lear jet crashed into San Gorgonio Mountain, just after taking off from Palm Springs Airport, on January 6, 1977. Just over a decade later, on March 21, 1987, Dean Martin’s son, Dino (of Dino, Desi and Billy), crashed into the same mountain, during a snowstorm, while flying for the California Air National Guard, killing both Captain Martin and his fellow crew member, Captain Ramon Ortiz. Dolly’s death took a lot out of Frank, especially under the circumstances. Dino’s death turned his father into a moribund shadow of his former self. Dean Martin, in his later years, would answer, when asked how he was doing, “Just waiting to die.”

    • Replies: @Jimmy Docherty
    That's really interesting, I never knew of the odd coincidence of Dino and Lady Sinatra's deaths. From the little I've read, I always got the weird sense that Frank had both love & hate for his mother, but that may be just how I would have felt. Do you know if she was operating inside the law with her abortion practice?
    , @Steve Sailer
    San Gorgonio is a big mountain: 11,500 feet high. On the eastern trail to the summit, you go past yet another wrecked airplane, which I think crashed there in the 1940s.
  114. @Jimmy Docherty
    I've Got You Under My Skin is wonderful. I would nominate One For My Baby And One More For The Road as a top contender. I always figured being so small played into his flinty attitude. Also, I imagine he was dominated by his mother and saw his father be dominated thereby as well. Consider the fact that everybody knows that Frank went through a crisis of conscience when he became a Republican for his old buddy Reagan's sake: he was worried about betraying his mother's legacy. She was a staunch Democrat who must have been one of the few abortionists in New Jersey in the 1920-1930s who was not only a woman but also Italian Roman Catholic. Everybody knows that. But nobody knows anything about Frank's father, so maybe he was a bit of a nobody. I wonder if Frank had to take a big step to get over that weird upbringing. That being said, I love Old Blue Eyes, I lived on his music as an aspie high school kid.

    P.S. When Reagan was elected governor, in 1966, Sinatra still was supporting the Democrats. He supported Humphrey over Nixon, in 1968. He supported Democrat John Tunney, for the United States Senate, in 1970, at the same time that he supported Reagan’s re-election for governor. It was when Sinatra supported Nixon’s re-election, in 1972, and actually became close friends with Agnew, that it was apparent that he was making the same u-turn, from New Deal Democrat to country-club Republican, that Reagan had made, several years earlier. Sinatra’s children, to this day, have not gotten over it, as is apparent from their books about their father– especially Tina’s.

    • Replies: @Jimmy Docherty
    You know a great deal about the Chairman, that's pretty cool. I had never heard about the Spiro connection.
  115. @inertial
    I learned from Mark Steyn that Sinatra disliked My Way. Too bombastic even for him. Steyn says that Sinatra didn't like Strangers in the Night, either; but I sort of guessed it already from all this doo-bee-dooing.

    Sinatra did not dislike “My Way” when he recorded it; he simply grew tired of his being expected to sing it, at every performance. (It actually was a French composition, for which his friend, Paul Anka, had rewritten an English lyric, especially for Sinatra.) “Strangers in the Night” was a song, on the other hand, that Sinatra did dislike, even when he recorded it. It became his first #1 single in a decade, however– and, to the best of my knowledge, he never refused to cash any of the resulting checks!?! From Wikipedia.org:

    ***

    Reaching number one on both the Billboard Hot 100 chart and the Easy Listening chart,[4] it was the title song for Sinatra’s 1966 album Strangers in the Night, which became his most commercially successful album. The song also reached number one on the UK Singles Chart.[5]

    Sinatra’s recording won him the Grammy Award for Best Male Pop Vocal Performance and the Grammy Award for Record of the Year, as well as a Grammy Award for Best Arrangement Accompanying a Vocalist or Instrumentalist for Ernie Freeman at the Grammy Awards of 1967. Hal Blaine was the drummer on the record and Glen Campbell played rhythm guitar.[citation needed]

    ***

    When “Nice ‘n’ Easy” was first played for Sinatra, he walked over to the piano, picked up the sheet music with two fingers, as if it were contaminated, walked over to the garbage pail, and dropped it in, from shoulder height. He not only ended up recording the song, of course, but he insisted on placing it on an album (for which it actually was musically unsuited), and making it the album’s opening and title track! Some songs grow on you, while others grow tiresome.

  116. @Jonathan Silber
    A few here have talked about his[Sinatra's] personal life disparagingly, none of you betas were ever in the position to turn down all that ass nor will you ever be.

    If a man has reached his middle age and can still think of nothing better to do with his time than chase tail, he's a case of arrested development.

    Victor Hugo says hello.

  117. @FactsAreImportant
    And Frank sang the theme song to Married With Children. No idea how the show persuaded him to do it.

    He didn’t own the rights to his performance, so the show simply had to buy the rights.

  118. @Jonathan Silber
    Good, yes. Talented with a great gift? No question about it.

    Relevant for today?….

    uh, no.

    If we go by total sales both globally and in the US...then we have to give the nod to the Beatles who helped define western music and shape it into what it is today right now.

    If we go by total sales here and abroad, then McDonald's, which can boast of Billions Sold, takes the prize for the cuisine Most Relevant For Today.

    If we go by total sales here and abroad, then McDonald’s, which can boast of Billions Sold, takes the prize for the cuisine Most Relevant For Today.

    Yes because food and music are the same.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    They have their similarities. Judging by sales volume is clearly materialistic.
    , @anon
    They kind of are, aren't they? Justin Bieber sold a lot more albums last year than any symphony orchestra did. Is that because he's so much better than they are?
    , @Jefferson
    "Yes because food and music are the same."

    They pretty much are. Lil Wayne for example is one of the most successful music artists of all time if judging strictly by the number of albums he has sold and number of songs he has sold on music downloading sites like iTunes and Spotify for example.

    Lil Wayne is the Taco Bell of music. Quantity does not always equal quality. Just because it sells a lot, doesn't make it good quality.

  119. Now that I have responded to some of my predecessors’ comments . . .

    ***

    My friend, I’ll say it clear
    I’ll state my case, of which I’m certain

    ***

    Well, not certain, but I do have strong reason to suspect that I was conceived during Steve’s own favorite Sinatra recording, “I’ve Got You under My Skin”– not while it was playing, on the radio or a turntable, but while it actually was being recorded!?!

    ***

    SALUTE TO A BOX – FAREWELL TO A FRIEND
    Remaining Under Our Sinatra Skins: Milt Bernhart 1926-2004
    by Bernhard Vogel

    (1)

    On Thursday, January 12, 1956, well after 10 p.m., a recording session was going on at the KHJ Studio A in Hollywood, 5155 Melrose Avenue, a place that had been rented for some time by Capitol Records. About a dozen or so takes had already been done on the 4th and final song selection of the date, but no definitive master yet. It was then decided that the trombonist who was to take up a small solo during the instrumental interlude should get closer to the microphone for the brass section. However, that couldn’t be achieved unless the musician was provided some sort of stepstool, because he simply was too short to reach it otherwise. Eventually, the vocalist himself who was doing the session came up with some wooden box and placed it there for the trombonist to step upon. The session went on, and with take 22, everything including the trombone solo played from on top of the box was in the can.

    ***

    That particular Thursday evening, early in 1956, happened to be my own father’s 35th birthday. Sinatra’s session started at 8 p.m. P.S.T., which was 10 p.m. C.S.T., in Gary, Indiana. With 22 takes dedicated to getting “I’ve Got You under My Skin” just right, the overwhelming majority of that night’s session was dedicated to that one standard, written by another of Indiana’s favorite sons, Cole Porter. (Trombonist Milt Bernhart also was a native Hoosier, from Valparaiso– the city whose mailing address I eventually would take up, after leaving Gary, for unincorporated Porter County, in 1967.) I was delivered up, at Gary Methodist Hospital, late on a Wednesday evening, 39 weeks later. As the eighth of nine children, I suspect that I was conceived on a special occasion– and that particular Thursday night, January 12, 1956, fit the bill to a proverbial T.

    Whether I actually was conceived during the recording of that Cole Porter classic or not, I grew up in a house that contained a lot of music, and a lot of crooning– even though I myself inherited neither musical nor singing ability. One of my brothers, eight years my elder, was a huge Sinatra and Dean Martin fan, as was one of our cousins, who lived across the street. I enjoyed their music along with the rock ‘n’ roll that my siblings listened to on WLS and WCFL, inter alia, out of Chicago. We also enjoyed watching Sinatra movies and specials on television. (I do not recall our watching his ABC series, from 1957-1960, although it is very likely that we did.)

    From the age of barely nine, when Sinatra was still, although just barely, 49, in the autumn of 1965, my favorite Sinatra recording was “It Was a Very Good Year” (from the “September of My Years” album, which later became my favorite album, also). When Sinatra turned eighty, twenty years ago, I happened to be living within walking distance of his main residence, in Beverly Hills. It was the one time that I sent unsolicited mail to a celebrity. I pointed out, in my birthday card to him, that “It Was a Very Good Year” had been my favorite single recording, for the previous 30 years. Twenty years later, it still is.

    A few years before I mailed that birthday card, my sister had a boyfriend who was working on a videodisc project with Nancy Sinatra, about her father’s life. At one point, he told us, she was talking about all of the unsavory stories about her father that had circulated, over the years. Finally, she concluded: “People can say a lot of bad things about my father– but they can’t prove ’em!” Well, I, for one, will not vouchsafe for Frank Sinatra’s immortal soul– although, especially after having read his daughter Tina’s memoir (which is much more frank and detached than her older sister’s two books on their father), I do feel as if Frank did a lot of penance, in his later years, for all of the godawful things that he did to others, earlier in his life. I have an ambivalent feeling about Francis Albert Sinatra, as a human being, which tends towards the negative; but, it is not so negative as to detract from my appreciation for him as a singer. (I was a Beatlemaniac, in my youth, and I think that Frank Sinatra did a world of more good, to help balance out his dark side, than did that secular saint, John Lennon, who simply was pretty lousy, all the way around!)

    I will give the final words over to the man himself– a man who was assumed to have been stillborn, until one of his grandmothers grabbed him up, ran with him to the kitchen sink, and ran cold water over the newborn baby, until it began to cry, exactly one hundred years ago this morning: “Ya gotta love livin’, baby, ’cause dyin’s a pain in the ass!”

  120. Sinatra’s big band version of Winchester Cathedral in 1966 turned me off of him for many years. Then in the early ’70’s an acid head in the neighborhood swore by Frank. He ‘d blast the crooner’s albums from his green 1952 Chevy panel wagon while cruising Valley Boulevard. He was also quite the ladies man. He said Sinatra was way cooler than Zeppelin or Black Sabbath, his former favorites. I’ve been a big fan ever since.

  121. @alaska3636
    Nobody mentioned the Velvet Fog, Mel Torme.

    Like Frank Sinatra over jazz.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6yUQ19WGBg

    Mel Torme. Killin' it.

    On Saturday afternoon, June 15, 1996, I wandered over to the Borders Bookstore at 330 South La Cienega Boulevard, near my home, and discovered that Mel Torme was in the store, autographing copies of his new 4-CD set, “The Mel Torme Collection: 1944-1985” (Rhino Records). As I browsed the store, they were playing the collection. As his autographing session was drawing to a close, I made an unusually impulsive buy, and then hurried to the end of the dwindling line to have my box set autographed. I literally was the last one in line, as far as I know. While he was gracious to me, he struck me as very haggard. He had been talking to some other customers about Ella Fitzgerald, and how she was the best singer there was. When I got home, I turned on my television, and the top news story was that Ella Fitzgerald had died, early that morning, at her Beverly Hills home. That explained for me why Mel Torme had looked so haggard, just a short time before.

    Although Sinatra is my favorite singer, I happen to agree with Mel Torme: Ella was the greatest singer in the era of recorded music! Mel Torme was a great singer himself, and I have loved the Rhino-issued box set that I bought, that Saturday afternoon, almost twenty years ago. Less than two months later, while in the midst of recording a tribute album in Ella Fitzgerald’s honor, Mel Torme had a stroke; he never recorded again, and might not even have ever uttered another word!?! He died a few years later, after another stroke. Along with the aforementioned box set, I may highly recommend his autobiography, “It Wasn’t All Velvet” (1988). Oh, and apropos of the season, Mel Torme and his songwriting partner, Bob Wells, co-wrote arguably the best secular Christmas song (with apologies to Irving Berlin, et al.!), entitled, fittingly enough, “The Christmas Song” (1946), as immortalized by the late, great Nat ‘King’ Cole. (Nat died, half a century ago, as of last February 15, when still only 45 years old! I happen to consider Nat Cole’s singing voice to have been the most aesthetically satisfying one of them all.)

    • Replies: @Jimmy Docherty
    Maybe you've seen this, it's pretty nice.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zPou_i2plhQ

    Mel Tormé doing a good song with Judy Garland in what I imagine is a bit of a drug-induced stupor.
  122. @D. K.
    Marty Sinatra was a quiet and unassuming man. Frank adored him (even though Marty had thrown Frank out of the house, for a long period of time, in disapproval of his wanting to be a crooner!); but, Frank was his mother's son. It was a love-hate relationship, but it was the relationship that clearly propelled him into becoming the man that he became. Dolly Sinatra died, along with a lifelong friend from Hoboken and their pilot, in a plane that Frank had leased, en route from Palm Springs to Las Vegas, to see her son perform. Their Lear jet crashed into San Gorgonio Mountain, just after taking off from Palm Springs Airport, on January 6, 1977. Just over a decade later, on March 21, 1987, Dean Martin's son, Dino (of Dino, Desi and Billy), crashed into the same mountain, during a snowstorm, while flying for the California Air National Guard, killing both Captain Martin and his fellow crew member, Captain Ramon Ortiz. Dolly's death took a lot out of Frank, especially under the circumstances. Dino's death turned his father into a moribund shadow of his former self. Dean Martin, in his later years, would answer, when asked how he was doing, "Just waiting to die."

    That’s really interesting, I never knew of the odd coincidence of Dino and Lady Sinatra’s deaths. From the little I’ve read, I always got the weird sense that Frank had both love & hate for his mother, but that may be just how I would have felt. Do you know if she was operating inside the law with her abortion practice?

    • Replies: @D. K.
    It was definitely illegal: she was reportedly arrested several times, and convicted twice.
    , @Former Darfur
    It was illegal as hell, but every community had one. Usually they were women who styled themselves as ""midwives", and many of them actually did deliver babies and other tasks for which they were trained, if you can call it that, informally. The famous Jimmy "The Weasel" Fratiano had the horrible voice he did because his tonsils had been removed, with scissors, by such a "midwife".
  123. @D. K.
    P.S. When Reagan was elected governor, in 1966, Sinatra still was supporting the Democrats. He supported Humphrey over Nixon, in 1968. He supported Democrat John Tunney, for the United States Senate, in 1970, at the same time that he supported Reagan's re-election for governor. It was when Sinatra supported Nixon's re-election, in 1972, and actually became close friends with Agnew, that it was apparent that he was making the same u-turn, from New Deal Democrat to country-club Republican, that Reagan had made, several years earlier. Sinatra's children, to this day, have not gotten over it, as is apparent from their books about their father-- especially Tina's.

    You know a great deal about the Chairman, that’s pretty cool. I had never heard about the Spiro connection.

  124. @D. K.
    On Saturday afternoon, June 15, 1996, I wandered over to the Borders Bookstore at 330 South La Cienega Boulevard, near my home, and discovered that Mel Torme was in the store, autographing copies of his new 4-CD set, "The Mel Torme Collection: 1944-1985" (Rhino Records). As I browsed the store, they were playing the collection. As his autographing session was drawing to a close, I made an unusually impulsive buy, and then hurried to the end of the dwindling line to have my box set autographed. I literally was the last one in line, as far as I know. While he was gracious to me, he struck me as very haggard. He had been talking to some other customers about Ella Fitzgerald, and how she was the best singer there was. When I got home, I turned on my television, and the top news story was that Ella Fitzgerald had died, early that morning, at her Beverly Hills home. That explained for me why Mel Torme had looked so haggard, just a short time before.

    Although Sinatra is my favorite singer, I happen to agree with Mel Torme: Ella was the greatest singer in the era of recorded music! Mel Torme was a great singer himself, and I have loved the Rhino-issued box set that I bought, that Saturday afternoon, almost twenty years ago. Less than two months later, while in the midst of recording a tribute album in Ella Fitzgerald's honor, Mel Torme had a stroke; he never recorded again, and might not even have ever uttered another word!?! He died a few years later, after another stroke. Along with the aforementioned box set, I may highly recommend his autobiography, "It Wasn't All Velvet" (1988). Oh, and apropos of the season, Mel Torme and his songwriting partner, Bob Wells, co-wrote arguably the best secular Christmas song (with apologies to Irving Berlin, et al.!), entitled, fittingly enough, "The Christmas Song" (1946), as immortalized by the late, great Nat 'King' Cole. (Nat died, half a century ago, as of last February 15, when still only 45 years old! I happen to consider Nat Cole's singing voice to have been the most aesthetically satisfying one of them all.)

    Maybe you’ve seen this, it’s pretty nice.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPou_i2plhQ

    Mel Tormé doing a good song with Judy Garland in what I imagine is a bit of a drug-induced stupor.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    That was the initial taping for "The Judy Garland Show" (1963-1964), although CBS executives decided to show the second taping first. Either way, the show was up against "Bonanza" on NBC, so it had a hard row to hoe, and duly failed. Anyway, from Mel Torme's own Wikipedia.org entry:

    ***

    In 1963–64, Tormé wrote songs and musical arrangements for The Judy Garland Show, where he made three guest appearances. However, he and Garland had a serious falling out, and he was fired from the series, which was canceled by CBS not long afterward. A few years later, after Garland's death, his time with her show became the subject of his first book, "The Other Side of the Rainbow with Judy Garland on the Dawn Patrol" (1970). Although the book was praised, some felt it painted an unflattering picture of Judy, and that Tormé had perhaps over-inflated his own contributions to the program; it led to an unsuccessful lawsuit by Garland's family.[9]

    ***

    Judy Garland was an immense singing talent, as some of her concert recordings readily attest to-- like her famous evening at Carnegie Hall, in April 1961. It is a shame that her addictions wasted so much of her talent, and cut her life so short.
  125. I’ve enjoyed this musical thread. It’s a nice diversion.

    Mark Steyn’s output is incredible. It makes one wonder what he would accomplish if he channeled more of his energy away from writing about music. It’s good that he reminds us, though, of the artistic and technical achievements of Broadway now that musical theater has been relegated to such an unsavory subcultural ghetto.

    Meanwhile, on Thursday, the Swedish royal family and the laureates in attendance at the Nobel Prize banquet in Stockholm were treated to this Backstreet Boys cover:

    and this:

    • Replies: @5371
    Very appropriate for Aleksievich.
  126. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Uh, yes, all three of them which is about twice and a half the numbers who have heard of Kraftwerk now.

    Within 50 yrs from now, the Chairman of the Board won't even be recalled for anything much less remembered.

    Lets see: Take an informal poll of adults 30 and under, say ages 15-29.

    Ask them: Who has heard of SInatra? Then ask them who has heard of the Beatles. Its very possible that many heard of both. Then break it down by asking "Ok, name as many songs sung by Sinatra as you can without asking your parents or grandparents. Then, name some Beatles songs."

    And see which side wins hands down.

    Didn't Sinatra cover Yesterday and Something? Both Beatles songs by the way...

    While I agree that Beatles masterpieces such as “Maxwell’s Silver Hammer” and “Yellow Submarine” will contine to be highly influential on future generations, he’s probably right about Kraftwerk.

    The problem with the Beatles is that there’s just too much hype. There are lots of people who buy Beatles albums, but it’s just because they feel like they’re supposed to. They never actually listen to them. So, the average person under thirty probably won’t know too many Beatles songs either, except the ones that are still played on classic radio, which they probably won’t listen to. And I doubt too many of them will be really all that impressed by “I Wanna Hold Your Hand”.

    Maybe they should be, I don’t know. But I don’t think they will be.

    • Replies: @Anon
    "And I doubt too many of them will be really all that impressed by 'I Wanna Hold Your Hand'."

    Then they are idiots.

    All the seminal Beatles stuff is the early stuff to 1965. They were good to the end, but their later stuff didn't matter much with the possible exception of Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane. Others were doing just as good stuff, even better.

    But from 62 to 65, they were changing musical culture, and I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND is still fresh, explosive, and totally remarkable. SHE LOVES YOU is even greater.
    Beatles got more complicated and hit the peak with TICKET TO RIDE and some other songs in 65. That was their peak musically.

    Kids today might like early Beatles cuz stuff by Katy Perry and Swift owe a lot of that kind of burst-of-fresh-mint pop.
    It's like Cyndi Lauperism with GIRLS JUST WANNA HAVE FUN, surely one of zaniest and most irresistible songs ever.

  127. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Uh, yes, all three of them which is about twice and a half the numbers who have heard of Kraftwerk now.

    Within 50 yrs from now, the Chairman of the Board won't even be recalled for anything much less remembered.

    Lets see: Take an informal poll of adults 30 and under, say ages 15-29.

    Ask them: Who has heard of SInatra? Then ask them who has heard of the Beatles. Its very possible that many heard of both. Then break it down by asking "Ok, name as many songs sung by Sinatra as you can without asking your parents or grandparents. Then, name some Beatles songs."

    And see which side wins hands down.

    Didn't Sinatra cover Yesterday and Something? Both Beatles songs by the way...

    Yes, and the Beatles covered Meredith Willson’s “Till There Was You” from “The Music Man” (1957), and Bobby Scott and Ric Marlow’s “A Taste of Honey” from the Broadway version (1960) of the British play of the same name (1958)– although, the Liverpudlian lads probably knew both songs from those plays’ movie versions (1962 and 1961, respectively)!?!

  128. @Niccolo Salo
    Within 50 years from now, the consensus will be that Kraftwerk is the most influential group of the 20th century.

    Fifty years from now, it’s nearly certain that what will be thought most important about the twentieth century would be laughable or incomprehensible today. That’s how history works.

  129. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Oh whatever. OR....they simply fade away and that's that. He had his time and his time is now past. People into Gangsta, R&B, Country, etc.

    Remember, the zenith of Sinatra's greatest popularity there were fewer music genres around. Rock was barely in the crib during this time and Rap was non-existent.

    To wit, Sinatra's greatest fan base remain the old and the dead so the idea that a few generations from now he'll be making a solid smash comeback when that world he inhabited is gone forever...come on.

    The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It's gone. Forever.

    Again, this isn't 1963 anymore.

    The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It’s gone. Forever.

    Well, OK, but if you’re going to make the whole “they were so influential” argument, then wouldn’t Ike Turner be even more influential than the Beatles? He had what was considered to be the first “rock ‘n’ roll” song. But how many people still listen to or care about Ike Turner today?

    If it hadn’t been for guys like Chuck Berry and Fats Domino, there wouldn’t have been a rock ‘n’ roll idiom for the Beatles to play with. But does anyone really care about Chuck Berry anymore?

    It’s kind of inescapable that a large part of the lasting affection for the Beatles comes from the fact that they were popular when the Baby Boomer generation was reaching adolescence and young adulthood.

    • Replies: @Bill B.
    Chuck Berry: lets face it, most popular music is revealed as s**t after a couple of generations, at least Chuck was able to dispose of this substance neatly.
    , @Former Darfur
    Chuck Berry got his thing from jump bands like Chick Webb and Illinois Jacquet and stripped it to its essence. They got it from Cab Calloway and the now forgotten Slim Gaillard. If you want to play rock and roll you had better start with Chuck Berry.

    Rap came from blacks who couldn't sing talking over the records of Chic, who in turn got their stuff secondhand, from white arena rock bands, from the same sources. (Later they went to the source.)

    All music that is uniquely American comes from either Jews in New York or a couple of dozen high-IQ mixed breed blacks in fin-de siecle New Orleans, 1920s New York or 1970s NY and California.

    Other than that, you have Anglo-Saxon and Celtic folk songs, classical music, the British music hall and a smattering of Scandinavian and Eastern European musics. If there is anything else I don't know what it is, and I studied musicology and music education in college and played in country, folk, rock, and church groups for almost forty years.
  130. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Oh whatever. OR....they simply fade away and that's that. He had his time and his time is now past. People into Gangsta, R&B, Country, etc.

    Remember, the zenith of Sinatra's greatest popularity there were fewer music genres around. Rock was barely in the crib during this time and Rap was non-existent.

    To wit, Sinatra's greatest fan base remain the old and the dead so the idea that a few generations from now he'll be making a solid smash comeback when that world he inhabited is gone forever...come on.

    The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It's gone. Forever.

    Again, this isn't 1963 anymore.

    The Beatles are as” obsolete” today as Frank was in 1968, if not more so.

    Let’s face it: Lennon and McCartney were a good songwriting team, but not the best in history by any standard, and as time goes by, the Beatles are remembered more for their notoriety, driving girls to screaming, seat-pissing, fainting fits like Elvis and Frank before, than for any eternal relevance of their music. Dozens of bands have lasted longer by multiples. Beatles songs are still performed to be sure, but no more than many other people’s.

    But in a hundred years, even fifty, the opinion will be different still.

  131. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Let's get to it. The main reason why Sinatra had stinkers later in his career was because he couldn't relate to the 60s generation and beyond. Time had passed him by. He wasn't the main attraction anymore, the Beatles had seen to that.

    Can't ever imagine Sinatra trying to rap, it would've been awful. And a desperate attempt to stay relevant as singing about peace, love, the animals, being green, etc.

    Please.

    Sinatra’s career low (musically) was actually in the early fifties:

    He did a complete bodge of several 70s pop-rock songs in that time period to be sure, but on others he did a good job, and as I’ve said before, the funniest thing in his catalog is “Mrs. Robinson”. But none beat this for pure awful.

    Frank was great in some movie roles and lame in others, but he took his music dead seriously, and so the dog rockets are pretty rare.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    The infamous "Mama Will Bark"-- which Sinatra always pointed to as having ruined his career, thanks to (future television star) Mitch Miller, Columbia's A&R executive-- actually charted at #21! There were a lot of novelty songs being released, back then, with Rosemary Clooney's "Come On-A My House" being perhaps the most famous and successful of the genre-- spending eight weeks at #1. Mitch Miller suggested "Mama Will Bark"-- and the duet with the buxom Dagmar-- precisely because Sinatra's singles had not been selling well, compared to back in the 1940s. Look at the picture at the start of that video, featuring Sinatra and Dagmar: does Frank really look like Mitch Miller was pointing a gun at his head, forcing him to record a song that he otherwise would have refused even to consider? Not even in "From Here to Eternity" (1953) or "The Man with the Golden Arm" (1955) was Frank Sinatra ever that good of an actor!
  132. @Trelane
    You should have become a musician yourself, or a sound engineer like Alan Parsons or a producer like Phil Spector or perhaps a songwriter like Kris Kristofferson. Too bad you didn't. But I'm glad you were able to fornicate and debauch your former coworker and relate this to iSteve readers. Thanks, ...

    Lighten up.

    It’s not like I nailed Lauren Bacall on top of Humphrey Bogart’s coffin or something.

    (Which I don’t think Frank really did…but that people would even believe it is bad enough.)

  133. @Honorary Thief
    Has anyone read the book? Does she cite Steve's work?

    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ann-coulter-credits-white-nationalist-writer-her-anti-immigrant-politics

    Brimelow’s VDARE has excitedly promoted Coulter’s Chronicles interview, perhaps because its writers don’t always get credit when their ideas get absorbed into the conservative mainstream. For instance, VDARE has been seeking credit from the GOP for the increasing popularity of an idea put forward by its contributor Steve Sailer, who was the first to outline in detail a supposed path to victory for Republicans that relies solely on white voters. Ann Coulter, incidentally, has credited Sailer for the “Sailer strategy” and continues to heartily endorse it. Last year, Coulter cited Sailer’s work in a speech from the mainstage at CPAC.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    Just to be clear, in the linked piece from Right Wing Watch, a project of Norman Lear's People For the American Way, the 'White Nationalist Writer' cited that inspired Ann Coulter is Peter Brimelow. Steve Sailer is of course a Citizenist.

    Earlier in the interview, when Patiak asked her to list her “intellectual influences” on immigration, she responded, “Well, obviously Peter Brimelow, who is the one who started it all, God bless him.”
     
  134. @Anon
    "It would appear as though Old Blue Eyes is a little too cishet and blue-eyed to merit a Google Doodle."

    Also too unhip by today's standards.

    I suppose Sinatra was a standout in his time as one of the few singers who really stamped other people's materials with personality.

    Before the rise of singer-performer of 60s Rock, the usual shtick was composers are composers and performers are performers. Composers mostly wrote impersonal songs with mass appeal, and performers were chosen cuz they could sing. A few like Armstrong could do both.

    Most performers certainly could sing(technically) but were without distinctive personality. Who remembers Perry Como anymore? But Sinatra stamped the material with his personality, and a Sinatra treatment of a song is like no other.

    In that sense, he did it his way, and I suppose Sid Vicious' twist on that song is a kind of barbed tribute.

    But one thing about Sinatra never appealed to me. The lack of tension.
    There's too much self-satisfaction, an ego satiated with self, stomach filled with a good meal and ready to lay back, back-slapping of others and being back-slapped back.

    His city songs: San Francisco, Chicago My Kind of Town, NY NY, and etc are so celebratory and shmoozy. Hearty like a big breakfast at a family hotel.

    No irony, no nuance, no shades. It's like driving down the center of Las Vegas with all the lights blaring.
    Never liked Broadway music for the same reason.

    Elvis was a great performer and personality too, but I never liked his brand of rock n roll either cuz it too was shtick.

    If I do have favorite among the shtickers, it's Engelbert Humperdinck. He could be powerful and light at once, like with his rendition of Last Waltz.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dkTwEfohRM

    PS: Good song by Jewess:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQPGsjHXZY

    PS: Good song by Jewess:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQPGsjHXZY

    Eydie Gorme, nee Edith Gormezano, a Sephardess who in her youth was pretty and who sings beautifully. Note the jaw line and mouth, which provide a lot of airway.

    Other possible advantages we will leave to the imagination.

    The whole crowd: Steve Allen, Dinah Shore (J), Steve and Eydie (J and Sephardic J), Frank Sinatra, and others:

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The whole crowd: Steve Allen, Dinah Shore (J), Steve and Eydie (J and Sephardic J), Frank Sinatra, and others:

     

    Don't forget to celebrate Dinah's 25th birthday this coming February.
    , @D. K.
    That was a wonderful clip, from before my young brain was able to record and retain long-term memories, but its lack of focus is problematic!?! That certainly was not Frank Sinatra's voice-- and, at that time, he had an eponymous series running on ABC, not NBC!-- but that lack of focus keeps me from even hazarding a guess as to who that was playing the role of Sinatra, hanging out with a streetlamp, a la his iconic "Song for Young Lovers" debut LP on Capitol Records (1954), albeit with a then-recent "Pal Joey" (1957) trench-coat flare!?!?! (Double-checking, just now, this show certainly is not listed as a Sinatra credit, at IMDb.com.)

    Steve Allen was a brilliant and talented man, albeit not a noteworthy singer. Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme were certainly a handsome young couple (and great friends of Frank Sinatra, right up until his death), each with a wonderful voice. Dinah Shore had a very nice voice-- albeit too syrupy for my taste-- and apparently something else that allowed her to attract a much-younger Burt Reynolds, while he was a major movie star, back in the 1970s!?! Ann Sothern is less well-remembered, these days, but was a very popular television star, back then, after having been a fairly popular movie star, for many years, earlier, especially as the title character in the "Massie" series of film comedies.

    Checking Wikipedia.org, I see that Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme actually met on the original "Tonight!" show, hosted by Steve Allen, in June of 1953-- when Steve Lawrence was still only 17 years old! They married, in Las Vegas, exactly six weeks before this broadcast, and then served as the summer replacements for Steve Allen, just a few months after it. Steve Lawrence, who was seven years younger than his wife Eydie, is now, at age 80, the only one in that Kinescope clip who still is among us, the living.
  135. @MEH 0910
    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ann-coulter-credits-white-nationalist-writer-her-anti-immigrant-politics

    Brimelow’s VDARE has excitedly promoted Coulter’s Chronicles interview, perhaps because its writers don’t always get credit when their ideas get absorbed into the conservative mainstream. For instance, VDARE has been seeking credit from the GOP for the increasing popularity of an idea put forward by its contributor Steve Sailer, who was the first to outline in detail a supposed path to victory for Republicans that relies solely on white voters. Ann Coulter, incidentally, has credited Sailer for the “Sailer strategy” and continues to heartily endorse it. Last year, Coulter cited Sailer's work in a speech from the mainstage at CPAC.
     

    Just to be clear, in the linked piece from Right Wing Watch, a project of Norman Lear’s People For the American Way, the ‘White Nationalist Writer’ cited that inspired Ann Coulter is Peter Brimelow. Steve Sailer is of course a Citizenist.

    Earlier in the interview, when Patiak asked her to list her “intellectual influences” on immigration, she responded, “Well, obviously Peter Brimelow, who is the one who started it all, God bless him.”

  136. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Oh whatever. OR....they simply fade away and that's that. He had his time and his time is now past. People into Gangsta, R&B, Country, etc.

    Remember, the zenith of Sinatra's greatest popularity there were fewer music genres around. Rock was barely in the crib during this time and Rap was non-existent.

    To wit, Sinatra's greatest fan base remain the old and the dead so the idea that a few generations from now he'll be making a solid smash comeback when that world he inhabited is gone forever...come on.

    The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It's gone. Forever.

    Again, this isn't 1963 anymore.

    Oh whatever. OR….they simply fade away and that’s that. He had his time and his time is now past. People into Gangsta, R&B, Country, etc.

    Heh.

    Sinatra was the original Gangsta.

    Remember, the zenith of Sinatra’s greatest popularity there were fewer music genres around. Rock was barely in the crib during this time and Rap was non-existent.

    The original Reformed Hymnody was notorious for busting windows out of meeting halls. Pope was rapping in the early 1700s, and the Nibelungenlied is chock full of Macks talking smack.

    To wit, Sinatra’s greatest fan base remain the old and the dead so the idea that a few generations from now he’ll be making a solid smash comeback when that world he inhabited is gone forever…come on.

    Sinatra in Pal Joey was Roissy before Roissy was a gleam in his momma’s eye. Boomers were too busy trying to tear down their alpha parents to care. That’s not where we are today, to put it mildly.

    It’s gone. Forever.

    Your ignorance of the past doesn’t inspire confidence in your capacity to tell the future.

    Again, this isn’t 1963 anymore.

    Progs argue by the clock because that’s all they’ve got. What’s your excuse?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Sinatra in Pal Joey was Roissy before Roissy was a gleam in his momma’s eye.
     
    One of Paul Harvey's classic "the Rest of the Story" programs told of a pop idol named "Francis" who, back in the Forties, had young women screaming, and running with shears up to him on train platforms to get a little clip of his hair.

    The kicker at the end is that this was the Eighteen Forties, and Francis was Franz Liszt.
  137. @Former Darfur
    PS: Good song by Jewess:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQPGsjHXZY


    Eydie Gorme, nee Edith Gormezano, a Sephardess who in her youth was pretty and who sings beautifully. Note the jaw line and mouth, which provide a lot of airway.

    Other possible advantages we will leave to the imagination.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNpb8WsF6bc

    The whole crowd: Steve Allen, Dinah Shore (J), Steve and Eydie (J and Sephardic J), Frank Sinatra, and others:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbxoF4F0TrY

    The whole crowd: Steve Allen, Dinah Shore (J), Steve and Eydie (J and Sephardic J), Frank Sinatra, and others:

    Don’t forget to celebrate Dinah’s 25th birthday this coming February.

  138. @Jimmy Docherty
    That's really interesting, I never knew of the odd coincidence of Dino and Lady Sinatra's deaths. From the little I've read, I always got the weird sense that Frank had both love & hate for his mother, but that may be just how I would have felt. Do you know if she was operating inside the law with her abortion practice?

    It was definitely illegal: she was reportedly arrested several times, and convicted twice.

  139. @ScarletNumber

    If we go by total sales here and abroad, then McDonald’s, which can boast of Billions Sold, takes the prize for the cuisine Most Relevant For Today.
     
    Yes because food and music are the same.

    They have their similarities. Judging by sales volume is clearly materialistic.

  140. @Former Darfur
    Sinatra's career low (musically) was actually in the early fifties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maGuLEgyIZk

    He did a complete bodge of several 70s pop-rock songs in that time period to be sure, but on others he did a good job, and as I've said before, the funniest thing in his catalog is "Mrs. Robinson". But none beat this for pure awful.

    Frank was great in some movie roles and lame in others, but he took his music dead seriously, and so the dog rockets are pretty rare.

    The infamous “Mama Will Bark”– which Sinatra always pointed to as having ruined his career, thanks to (future television star) Mitch Miller, Columbia’s A&R executive– actually charted at #21! There were a lot of novelty songs being released, back then, with Rosemary Clooney’s “Come On-A My House” being perhaps the most famous and successful of the genre– spending eight weeks at #1. Mitch Miller suggested “Mama Will Bark”– and the duet with the buxom Dagmar– precisely because Sinatra’s singles had not been selling well, compared to back in the 1940s. Look at the picture at the start of that video, featuring Sinatra and Dagmar: does Frank really look like Mitch Miller was pointing a gun at his head, forcing him to record a song that he otherwise would have refused even to consider? Not even in “From Here to Eternity” (1953) or “The Man with the Golden Arm” (1955) was Frank Sinatra ever that good of an actor!

  141. @ScarletNumber

    If we go by total sales here and abroad, then McDonald’s, which can boast of Billions Sold, takes the prize for the cuisine Most Relevant For Today.
     
    Yes because food and music are the same.

    They kind of are, aren’t they? Justin Bieber sold a lot more albums last year than any symphony orchestra did. Is that because he’s so much better than they are?

  142. @Jimmy Docherty
    Maybe you've seen this, it's pretty nice.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zPou_i2plhQ

    Mel Tormé doing a good song with Judy Garland in what I imagine is a bit of a drug-induced stupor.

    That was the initial taping for “The Judy Garland Show” (1963-1964), although CBS executives decided to show the second taping first. Either way, the show was up against “Bonanza” on NBC, so it had a hard row to hoe, and duly failed. Anyway, from Mel Torme’s own Wikipedia.org entry:

    ***

    In 1963–64, Tormé wrote songs and musical arrangements for The Judy Garland Show, where he made three guest appearances. However, he and Garland had a serious falling out, and he was fired from the series, which was canceled by CBS not long afterward. A few years later, after Garland’s death, his time with her show became the subject of his first book, “The Other Side of the Rainbow with Judy Garland on the Dawn Patrol” (1970). Although the book was praised, some felt it painted an unflattering picture of Judy, and that Tormé had perhaps over-inflated his own contributions to the program; it led to an unsuccessful lawsuit by Garland’s family.[9]

    ***

    Judy Garland was an immense singing talent, as some of her concert recordings readily attest to– like her famous evening at Carnegie Hall, in April 1961. It is a shame that her addictions wasted so much of her talent, and cut her life so short.

  143. @Trelane
    You should have become a musician yourself, or a sound engineer like Alan Parsons or a producer like Phil Spector or perhaps a songwriter like Kris Kristofferson. Too bad you didn't. But I'm glad you were able to fornicate and debauch your former coworker and relate this to iSteve readers. Thanks, ...

    …or perhaps a songwriter like Kris Kristofferson.

    If Darfur’s story didn’t creep you out enough, consider this: Kristofferson is older than John McCain.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    By a matter of a few months. Who cares?

    You want creepy, consider the guy Kristofferson _really_ wrote "a walking contradiction/partly truth and partly fiction" about, Harry Dean Stanton.
  144. My parents hated Sinatra. They were from the great depression/ greatest generation era. Sinatra was one of the most infamous draft dodger of his time. For that he was hated by my parents. My parents passed away a long time ago, but like a good son I still hate Sinatra for them.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    Frank Sinatra was classified as 4-F because he had a perforated eardrum-- a result of the doctor's use of forceps, during the bambino's difficult delivery, one hundred years ago, yesterday morning.
    , @Anon
    "My parents hated Sinatra."

    He wasn't a sap. He knew his country wasn't his blood.

    https://youtu.be/r-I4VIR5yGg?t=1m31s
  145. @flyingtiger
    My parents hated Sinatra. They were from the great depression/ greatest generation era. Sinatra was one of the most infamous draft dodger of his time. For that he was hated by my parents. My parents passed away a long time ago, but like a good son I still hate Sinatra for them.

    Frank Sinatra was classified as 4-F because he had a perforated eardrum– a result of the doctor’s use of forceps, during the bambino’s difficult delivery, one hundred years ago, yesterday morning.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar


    Frank Sinatra was classified as 4-F because he had a perforated eardrum– a result of the doctor’s use of forceps, during the bambino’s difficult delivery, one hundred years ago, yesterday morning.

     

    You'd think a professional abortionist would have picked a better doctor for the delivery.

    That reminds me of what Oscar Brand sang to the tune of "My Bonnie":

    My Grandma sells cheap prophylactics
    She punctures the heads with a pin
    For Grandpa gets rich from abortions
    My God, how the money rolls in.


    www.theweebsite.com/bawdysongs/songs/how_money_rolls_in.html
  146. @Jimmy Docherty
    That's really interesting, I never knew of the odd coincidence of Dino and Lady Sinatra's deaths. From the little I've read, I always got the weird sense that Frank had both love & hate for his mother, but that may be just how I would have felt. Do you know if she was operating inside the law with her abortion practice?

    It was illegal as hell, but every community had one. Usually they were women who styled themselves as “”midwives”, and many of them actually did deliver babies and other tasks for which they were trained, if you can call it that, informally. The famous Jimmy “The Weasel” Fratiano had the horrible voice he did because his tonsils had been removed, with scissors, by such a “midwife”.

  147. @anon
    The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It’s gone. Forever.

    Well, OK, but if you're going to make the whole "they were so influential" argument, then wouldn't Ike Turner be even more influential than the Beatles? He had what was considered to be the first "rock 'n' roll" song. But how many people still listen to or care about Ike Turner today?

    If it hadn't been for guys like Chuck Berry and Fats Domino, there wouldn't have been a rock 'n' roll idiom for the Beatles to play with. But does anyone really care about Chuck Berry anymore?

    It's kind of inescapable that a large part of the lasting affection for the Beatles comes from the fact that they were popular when the Baby Boomer generation was reaching adolescence and young adulthood.

    Chuck Berry: lets face it, most popular music is revealed as s**t after a couple of generations, at least Chuck was able to dispose of this substance neatly.

    • Replies: @anon
    Chuck Berry has had an influence on later generations, though. He gave a name to the band Buckcherry, who may have written the last real balls-to-the-wall rock song to get popular, "Lit Up".
  148. @Reg Cæsar

    …or perhaps a songwriter like Kris Kristofferson.
     
    If Darfur's story didn't creep you out enough, consider this: Kristofferson is older than John McCain.

    By a matter of a few months. Who cares?

    You want creepy, consider the guy Kristofferson _really_ wrote “a walking contradiction/partly truth and partly fiction” about, Harry Dean Stanton.

  149. @anon
    The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It’s gone. Forever.

    Well, OK, but if you're going to make the whole "they were so influential" argument, then wouldn't Ike Turner be even more influential than the Beatles? He had what was considered to be the first "rock 'n' roll" song. But how many people still listen to or care about Ike Turner today?

    If it hadn't been for guys like Chuck Berry and Fats Domino, there wouldn't have been a rock 'n' roll idiom for the Beatles to play with. But does anyone really care about Chuck Berry anymore?

    It's kind of inescapable that a large part of the lasting affection for the Beatles comes from the fact that they were popular when the Baby Boomer generation was reaching adolescence and young adulthood.

    Chuck Berry got his thing from jump bands like Chick Webb and Illinois Jacquet and stripped it to its essence. They got it from Cab Calloway and the now forgotten Slim Gaillard. If you want to play rock and roll you had better start with Chuck Berry.

    Rap came from blacks who couldn’t sing talking over the records of Chic, who in turn got their stuff secondhand, from white arena rock bands, from the same sources. (Later they went to the source.)

    All music that is uniquely American comes from either Jews in New York or a couple of dozen high-IQ mixed breed blacks in fin-de siecle New Orleans, 1920s New York or 1970s NY and California.

    Other than that, you have Anglo-Saxon and Celtic folk songs, classical music, the British music hall and a smattering of Scandinavian and Eastern European musics. If there is anything else I don’t know what it is, and I studied musicology and music education in college and played in country, folk, rock, and church groups for almost forty years.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    All music that is uniquely American comes from either Jews in New York or a couple of dozen high-IQ mixed breed blacks in fin-de siecle New Orleans, 1920s New York or 1970s NY and California.

     

    Er, Cole Porter, Hoagy Carmichael, Richard Whiting, and Jimmy van Heusen weren't Jewish.

    Nor were Harry Warren, Henry Mancini, Jimmy McHugh, Zez Confrey, Victor Herbert, Leroy Anderson, Meredith Willson, Hugh Martin, Glenn Miller, Nacio Herb Brown...
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    "Rap came from blacks who couldn’t sing talking over the records of Chic"

    I always assumed they got it from Jamaican reggae - in the early to mid-70s "toasting" over the rhythm track became popular - here's 1972 U Roy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNB3hrCaotA

    and of course the "toasters" probably got it from the calypsonians of Trinidad who would compose odes to pretty much everything - like a 1951 UK election

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8KNPIl6qk8
    , @Former Darfur
    Chuck Berry is a far bigger swine than Frank Sinatra could have ever thought of being. Here is a man who bought a restaurant and put TV cameras over the stalls in the women's bathrooms to film them, and who-I've seen it, Al Goldstein sold the tape which also had the Rob Lowe and Go-Go's footage-filmed himself doing degrading and scatological acts with white young groupies. He was in jail several times and as Keith Richards alludes to in the documentary, he escaped many times for every time he was caught.

    From Wikipedia:


    Born into a middle-class African-American family in St. Louis, Missouri, Berry had an interest in music from an early age and gave his first public performance at Sumner High School. While still a high school student he was arrested, and served a prison sentence for armed robbery from 1944 to 1947.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Berry

    That said, he is a musical genius of sorts, even though he didn't actually write the music itself to any of the big 50s hits he had. The lyrics were his, the guitar playing (which was actually a lot more elegant than it at first appears, especially on his Chess recordings) was his, and the showmanship was his. The actual melodies themselves were from a black piano player named Johnnie Johnston, as Keith Richards seems to almost realize live on camera in the movie. (The movie, Hail! Hail! Rock 'n' Roll, is probably the best of its genre ever and well worth watching to any Beatles, Stones, Beach Boys, or rockabilly, punk, new wave or roots music fan.)

    Of course, being black meant that he had to "put up with" a lot of 'racist' stuff in his heyday, (those laws not seeming quite as crazy now as they did to me in my racially ignorant days) but was protected from the full wrath of the law many times over in his later life of debauchery. Berry, far more than Sinatra, presents us with a real "Gauguin problem".
  150. @Desiderius

    Oh whatever. OR….they simply fade away and that’s that. He had his time and his time is now past. People into Gangsta, R&B, Country, etc.

     

    Heh.

    Sinatra was the original Gangsta.

    Remember, the zenith of Sinatra’s greatest popularity there were fewer music genres around. Rock was barely in the crib during this time and Rap was non-existent.
     
    The original Reformed Hymnody was notorious for busting windows out of meeting halls. Pope was rapping in the early 1700s, and the Nibelungenlied is chock full of Macks talking smack.

    To wit, Sinatra’s greatest fan base remain the old and the dead so the idea that a few generations from now he’ll be making a solid smash comeback when that world he inhabited is gone forever…come on.
     
    Sinatra in Pal Joey was Roissy before Roissy was a gleam in his momma's eye. Boomers were too busy trying to tear down their alpha parents to care. That's not where we are today, to put it mildly.

    It’s gone. Forever.
     
    Your ignorance of the past doesn't inspire confidence in your capacity to tell the future.

    Again, this isn’t 1963 anymore.
     
    Progs argue by the clock because that's all they've got. What's your excuse?

    Sinatra in Pal Joey was Roissy before Roissy was a gleam in his momma’s eye.

    One of Paul Harvey’s classic “the Rest of the Story” programs told of a pop idol named “Francis” who, back in the Forties, had young women screaming, and running with shears up to him on train platforms to get a little clip of his hair.

    The kicker at the end is that this was the Eighteen Forties, and Francis was Franz Liszt.

  151. @D. K.
    Frank Sinatra was classified as 4-F because he had a perforated eardrum-- a result of the doctor's use of forceps, during the bambino's difficult delivery, one hundred years ago, yesterday morning.

    Frank Sinatra was classified as 4-F because he had a perforated eardrum– a result of the doctor’s use of forceps, during the bambino’s difficult delivery, one hundred years ago, yesterday morning.

    You’d think a professional abortionist would have picked a better doctor for the delivery.

    That reminds me of what Oscar Brand sang to the tune of “My Bonnie”:

    My Grandma sells cheap prophylactics
    She punctures the heads with a pin
    For Grandpa gets rich from abortions
    My God, how the money rolls in.

    http://www.theweebsite.com/bawdysongs/songs/how_money_rolls_in.html

    • Replies: @D. K.
    Here is a recent recounting of Frank Sinatra's birth:

    ***

    It’s hard to imagine that all this could have never happened. Sinatra’s life did not exactly start on the right foot. Born on the 12th of December 1915, Dolly Sinatra’s labour had stalled and the midwife immediately sent for the doctor. When he arrived ten long minutes later, he clamped metallic forceps round the baby’s head and pulled hard, hauling the child from its mother’s womb and in the process, tearing the left side of its face, neck and ear.

    The doctor left little Frankie for dead by the kitchen sink, shifting his efforts to saving the life of his mother, who was nearly unconscious. It was his grandmother who apparently picked up the seemingly lifeless baby and ran ice cold water from the sink over it, while slapping its back – and that is when Sinatra howled his first song.

    Both mother and child survived, but neither forgot the violence and brutality of the event.

    Those forceps had also left their mark in the form of a scar on the left side of Sinatra’s face, a scar that ran from the corner of his mouth to his jaw line, and that “earned” him the nickname “Scarface” as a teenager.

    As he grew older, he remained conscious about his looks and physical appearance. It is a well reported fact that he, for instance, avoided at all costs being photographed on his left side, and a lot of the photographs that did shoot him from that brush were specifically airbrushed. Even in the most amorous moments, he remained sensitive to being caressed on his left cheek. As an adult, he would applay Max Factor Pan-Cake to his face and neck every morning and again after each of the several showers that as a compulsive and obsessive hand and body washer he took throughout the day.

    His own personal take on what had happened during his birth can be read through the words he told a lover of his named Peggy Connelly, to whom he said “they weren’t thinking about me, just about my mother. They just ripped me out and tossed me aside.”

    One can’t help but wonder whether this traumatic experience left such a mark on ol’ blue eyes in a way that would lead him to the determination which drove his rise to the top of the world. Nevertheless, it also speaks volumes on the enigmatic relationship with his own mother, Dolly, a strong and determined Italian blooded woman with an unpredictable and volcanic personality who Frank seems to have hated and loved in equal measures throughout his life.

    - See more at: https://www.jazziz.com/the-traumatic-birth-of-frank-sinatra/#sthash.9C4UXmaR.dpuf

    ***

    This recent account left out some rather material facts about Frank Sinatra's traumatic birth:

    A) The then-nineteen-year-old Dolly Sinatra stood just under 5' tall, and weighed all of about 90 pounds (as opposed to the more-traditional-looking Italian-American grandmother that she was eventually to become);

    B) Despite Frank Sinatra's notoriously slender figure, in his physical prime, while at the height of his teenage-idol period of fame (his draft-board physical, during World War II, when Sinatra was in his late twenties, listed him at 5' 7.25" tall, and 125 pounds, if I recall correctly), he was a huge newborn-- close to 13.5 pounds!

    Try that exercise at home, without modern anesthetics, ladies!

    Here is a story from "The New York Times" on the day, seventeen years ago, when Frank Sinatra's FBI file was (mostly) released to the public:

    http://www.nytimes.com/1998/12/09/us/fbi-releases-its-sinatra-file-with-tidbits-old-and-new.html

    As to the draft issue, in particular, that story reads:

    ***

    One fact emerged from a tip by the gossip columnist Walter Winchell, who forwarded to the F.B.I. an anonymous letter repeating a rumor that Mr. Sinatra had paid a $40,000 bribe to doctors in New Jersey in order to escape the draft.

    After checking with the draft board in Jersey City, the F.B.I. determined that Mr. Sinatra had been properly rejected as 4-F. An F.B.I. agent related that ''Sinatra's classification appeared to be regular and that he was disqualified because of a perforated eardrum and chronic mastoiditis and that his mental condition was one of mental instability.''

    In his report for the draft board, one examiner evaluating Mr. Sinatra had written:

    ''During the psychiatric interview, the patient stated that he was 'neurotic, afraid to be in crowds, afraid to go in the elevator, makes him feel that he would want to run when surrounded by people. He had comatic ideas and headaches and has been very nervous for four or five years. Wakens tired in the A.M., is run down and undernourished. The examining psychiatrist concluded that this selectee suffered from psychoneurosis and was not acceptable material from the psychiatric viewpoint.''

    A Sinatra biographer, Michael Freedland, said today that the information regarding Mr. Sinatra's medical examination was new. Mr. Freedland, whose book ''All the Way'' was published this year by St. Martin's Press, said: ''It's amazing that somebody who has 6,000 girls screaming at him at the Paramount Theater in New York could claim that he is disturbed by crowds. It is unbelievable. He thrived on crowds.''

    The officer who supervised Mr. Sinatra's medical examination, Capt. Joseph Weintrob, said that since Mr. Sinatra was being rejected because of his hearing problems, ''the diagnosis of psychoneurosis, severe, was not added to the list'' and that emotional instability was substituted because ''this would avoid undue unpleasantness for both the selectee and the induction service.''

    ***

    Here is a news flash for Mr. Michael Freedland: being in a crowd is a rather different thing from being on a stage, in front of a crowd!
  152. @Grumpy
    I've enjoyed this musical thread. It's a nice diversion.

    Mark Steyn's output is incredible. It makes one wonder what he would accomplish if he channeled more of his energy away from writing about music. It's good that he reminds us, though, of the artistic and technical achievements of Broadway now that musical theater has been relegated to such an unsavory subcultural ghetto.

    Meanwhile, on Thursday, the Swedish royal family and the laureates in attendance at the Nobel Prize banquet in Stockholm were treated to this Backstreet Boys cover:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzbrbahyaGg

    and this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYeYK3VeYE8

    Very appropriate for Aleksievich.

  153. @Bill B.
    Chuck Berry: lets face it, most popular music is revealed as s**t after a couple of generations, at least Chuck was able to dispose of this substance neatly.

    Chuck Berry has had an influence on later generations, though. He gave a name to the band Buckcherry, who may have written the last real balls-to-the-wall rock song to get popular, “Lit Up”.

  154. Americanskis like me tend to be surprised by the international popularity of major American stars. I was flipping the channel last night and on the German channel (DW, I am in Thighland) there was an hour-long special featuring a German guy named Cicero singing all the big Sinatra hits. Many members of the audience could be seen singing along in English.

  155. @D. K.
    Marty Sinatra was a quiet and unassuming man. Frank adored him (even though Marty had thrown Frank out of the house, for a long period of time, in disapproval of his wanting to be a crooner!); but, Frank was his mother's son. It was a love-hate relationship, but it was the relationship that clearly propelled him into becoming the man that he became. Dolly Sinatra died, along with a lifelong friend from Hoboken and their pilot, in a plane that Frank had leased, en route from Palm Springs to Las Vegas, to see her son perform. Their Lear jet crashed into San Gorgonio Mountain, just after taking off from Palm Springs Airport, on January 6, 1977. Just over a decade later, on March 21, 1987, Dean Martin's son, Dino (of Dino, Desi and Billy), crashed into the same mountain, during a snowstorm, while flying for the California Air National Guard, killing both Captain Martin and his fellow crew member, Captain Ramon Ortiz. Dolly's death took a lot out of Frank, especially under the circumstances. Dino's death turned his father into a moribund shadow of his former self. Dean Martin, in his later years, would answer, when asked how he was doing, "Just waiting to die."

    San Gorgonio is a big mountain: 11,500 feet high. On the eastern trail to the summit, you go past yet another wrecked airplane, which I think crashed there in the 1940s.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    The one time that I traveled to Palm Springs, in the spring of 1996, I was really struck by just how prominent the mountain is. It looked like the sun would appear to be going down behind it in the afternoon, even during the summer solstice!?!
  156. @Former Darfur
    Chuck Berry got his thing from jump bands like Chick Webb and Illinois Jacquet and stripped it to its essence. They got it from Cab Calloway and the now forgotten Slim Gaillard. If you want to play rock and roll you had better start with Chuck Berry.

    Rap came from blacks who couldn't sing talking over the records of Chic, who in turn got their stuff secondhand, from white arena rock bands, from the same sources. (Later they went to the source.)

    All music that is uniquely American comes from either Jews in New York or a couple of dozen high-IQ mixed breed blacks in fin-de siecle New Orleans, 1920s New York or 1970s NY and California.

    Other than that, you have Anglo-Saxon and Celtic folk songs, classical music, the British music hall and a smattering of Scandinavian and Eastern European musics. If there is anything else I don't know what it is, and I studied musicology and music education in college and played in country, folk, rock, and church groups for almost forty years.

    All music that is uniquely American comes from either Jews in New York or a couple of dozen high-IQ mixed breed blacks in fin-de siecle New Orleans, 1920s New York or 1970s NY and California.

    Er, Cole Porter, Hoagy Carmichael, Richard Whiting, and Jimmy van Heusen weren’t Jewish.

    Nor were Harry Warren, Henry Mancini, Jimmy McHugh, Zez Confrey, Victor Herbert, Leroy Anderson, Meredith Willson, Hugh Martin, Glenn Miller, Nacio Herb Brown…

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    ...and how did I leave out Walter Donaldson and Vincent Youmans? And George M Cohan!!
  157. @Reg Cæsar

    All music that is uniquely American comes from either Jews in New York or a couple of dozen high-IQ mixed breed blacks in fin-de siecle New Orleans, 1920s New York or 1970s NY and California.

     

    Er, Cole Porter, Hoagy Carmichael, Richard Whiting, and Jimmy van Heusen weren't Jewish.

    Nor were Harry Warren, Henry Mancini, Jimmy McHugh, Zez Confrey, Victor Herbert, Leroy Anderson, Meredith Willson, Hugh Martin, Glenn Miller, Nacio Herb Brown...

    …and how did I leave out Walter Donaldson and Vincent Youmans? And George M Cohan!!

    • Replies: @Kylie
    And Stephen Foster.
  158. @Reg Cæsar


    Frank Sinatra was classified as 4-F because he had a perforated eardrum– a result of the doctor’s use of forceps, during the bambino’s difficult delivery, one hundred years ago, yesterday morning.

     

    You'd think a professional abortionist would have picked a better doctor for the delivery.

    That reminds me of what Oscar Brand sang to the tune of "My Bonnie":

    My Grandma sells cheap prophylactics
    She punctures the heads with a pin
    For Grandpa gets rich from abortions
    My God, how the money rolls in.


    www.theweebsite.com/bawdysongs/songs/how_money_rolls_in.html

    Here is a recent recounting of Frank Sinatra’s birth:

    ***

    It’s hard to imagine that all this could have never happened. Sinatra’s life did not exactly start on the right foot. Born on the 12th of December 1915, Dolly Sinatra’s labour had stalled and the midwife immediately sent for the doctor. When he arrived ten long minutes later, he clamped metallic forceps round the baby’s head and pulled hard, hauling the child from its mother’s womb and in the process, tearing the left side of its face, neck and ear.

    The doctor left little Frankie for dead by the kitchen sink, shifting his efforts to saving the life of his mother, who was nearly unconscious. It was his grandmother who apparently picked up the seemingly lifeless baby and ran ice cold water from the sink over it, while slapping its back – and that is when Sinatra howled his first song.

    Both mother and child survived, but neither forgot the violence and brutality of the event.

    Those forceps had also left their mark in the form of a scar on the left side of Sinatra’s face, a scar that ran from the corner of his mouth to his jaw line, and that “earned” him the nickname “Scarface” as a teenager.

    As he grew older, he remained conscious about his looks and physical appearance. It is a well reported fact that he, for instance, avoided at all costs being photographed on his left side, and a lot of the photographs that did shoot him from that brush were specifically airbrushed. Even in the most amorous moments, he remained sensitive to being caressed on his left cheek. As an adult, he would applay Max Factor Pan-Cake to his face and neck every morning and again after each of the several showers that as a compulsive and obsessive hand and body washer he took throughout the day.

    His own personal take on what had happened during his birth can be read through the words he told a lover of his named Peggy Connelly, to whom he said “they weren’t thinking about me, just about my mother. They just ripped me out and tossed me aside.”

    One can’t help but wonder whether this traumatic experience left such a mark on ol’ blue eyes in a way that would lead him to the determination which drove his rise to the top of the world. Nevertheless, it also speaks volumes on the enigmatic relationship with his own mother, Dolly, a strong and determined Italian blooded woman with an unpredictable and volcanic personality who Frank seems to have hated and loved in equal measures throughout his life.

    – See more at: https://www.jazziz.com/the-traumatic-birth-of-frank-sinatra/#sthash.9C4UXmaR.dpuf

    ***

    This recent account left out some rather material facts about Frank Sinatra’s traumatic birth:

    A) The then-nineteen-year-old Dolly Sinatra stood just under 5′ tall, and weighed all of about 90 pounds (as opposed to the more-traditional-looking Italian-American grandmother that she was eventually to become);

    B) Despite Frank Sinatra’s notoriously slender figure, in his physical prime, while at the height of his teenage-idol period of fame (his draft-board physical, during World War II, when Sinatra was in his late twenties, listed him at 5′ 7.25″ tall, and 125 pounds, if I recall correctly), he was a huge newborn– close to 13.5 pounds!

    Try that exercise at home, without modern anesthetics, ladies!

    Here is a story from “The New York Times” on the day, seventeen years ago, when Frank Sinatra’s FBI file was (mostly) released to the public:

    http://www.nytimes.com/1998/12/09/us/fbi-releases-its-sinatra-file-with-tidbits-old-and-new.html

    As to the draft issue, in particular, that story reads:

    ***

    One fact emerged from a tip by the gossip columnist Walter Winchell, who forwarded to the F.B.I. an anonymous letter repeating a rumor that Mr. Sinatra had paid a $40,000 bribe to doctors in New Jersey in order to escape the draft.

    After checking with the draft board in Jersey City, the F.B.I. determined that Mr. Sinatra had been properly rejected as 4-F. An F.B.I. agent related that ”Sinatra’s classification appeared to be regular and that he was disqualified because of a perforated eardrum and chronic mastoiditis and that his mental condition was one of mental instability.”

    In his report for the draft board, one examiner evaluating Mr. Sinatra had written:

    ”During the psychiatric interview, the patient stated that he was ‘neurotic, afraid to be in crowds, afraid to go in the elevator, makes him feel that he would want to run when surrounded by people. He had comatic ideas and headaches and has been very nervous for four or five years. Wakens tired in the A.M., is run down and undernourished. The examining psychiatrist concluded that this selectee suffered from psychoneurosis and was not acceptable material from the psychiatric viewpoint.”

    A Sinatra biographer, Michael Freedland, said today that the information regarding Mr. Sinatra’s medical examination was new. Mr. Freedland, whose book ”All the Way” was published this year by St. Martin’s Press, said: ”It’s amazing that somebody who has 6,000 girls screaming at him at the Paramount Theater in New York could claim that he is disturbed by crowds. It is unbelievable. He thrived on crowds.”

    The officer who supervised Mr. Sinatra’s medical examination, Capt. Joseph Weintrob, said that since Mr. Sinatra was being rejected because of his hearing problems, ”the diagnosis of psychoneurosis, severe, was not added to the list” and that emotional instability was substituted because ”this would avoid undue unpleasantness for both the selectee and the induction service.”

    ***

    Here is a news flash for Mr. Michael Freedland: being in a crowd is a rather different thing from being on a stage, in front of a crowd!

  159. @Steve Sailer
    San Gorgonio is a big mountain: 11,500 feet high. On the eastern trail to the summit, you go past yet another wrecked airplane, which I think crashed there in the 1940s.

    The one time that I traveled to Palm Springs, in the spring of 1996, I was really struck by just how prominent the mountain is. It looked like the sun would appear to be going down behind it in the afternoon, even during the summer solstice!?!

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The Palm Springs golf courses near the base of the mountain look spectacular in the morning sun but are in a weird gloom for most of the afternoon.
  160. @Former Darfur
    PS: Good song by Jewess:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQPGsjHXZY


    Eydie Gorme, nee Edith Gormezano, a Sephardess who in her youth was pretty and who sings beautifully. Note the jaw line and mouth, which provide a lot of airway.

    Other possible advantages we will leave to the imagination.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNpb8WsF6bc

    The whole crowd: Steve Allen, Dinah Shore (J), Steve and Eydie (J and Sephardic J), Frank Sinatra, and others:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbxoF4F0TrY

    That was a wonderful clip, from before my young brain was able to record and retain long-term memories, but its lack of focus is problematic!?! That certainly was not Frank Sinatra’s voice– and, at that time, he had an eponymous series running on ABC, not NBC!– but that lack of focus keeps me from even hazarding a guess as to who that was playing the role of Sinatra, hanging out with a streetlamp, a la his iconic “Song for Young Lovers” debut LP on Capitol Records (1954), albeit with a then-recent “Pal Joey” (1957) trench-coat flare!?!?! (Double-checking, just now, this show certainly is not listed as a Sinatra credit, at IMDb.com.)

    Steve Allen was a brilliant and talented man, albeit not a noteworthy singer. Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme were certainly a handsome young couple (and great friends of Frank Sinatra, right up until his death), each with a wonderful voice. Dinah Shore had a very nice voice– albeit too syrupy for my taste– and apparently something else that allowed her to attract a much-younger Burt Reynolds, while he was a major movie star, back in the 1970s!?! Ann Sothern is less well-remembered, these days, but was a very popular television star, back then, after having been a fairly popular movie star, for many years, earlier, especially as the title character in the “Massie” series of film comedies.

    Checking Wikipedia.org, I see that Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme actually met on the original “Tonight!” show, hosted by Steve Allen, in June of 1953– when Steve Lawrence was still only 17 years old! They married, in Las Vegas, exactly six weeks before this broadcast, and then served as the summer replacements for Steve Allen, just a few months after it. Steve Lawrence, who was seven years younger than his wife Eydie, is now, at age 80, the only one in that Kinescope clip who still is among us, the living.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    Here, courtesy of IMDb.com, is the full listing of credits for the cast and crew of that February 9, 1958, episode of "The Steve Allen Show" that included the aforementioned Kinescope clip:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0864188/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

    No Frank Sinatra-- but who, among those listed, if anyone, was pretending to be Frank, heaven only knows!?!?!
  161. @D. K.
    That was a wonderful clip, from before my young brain was able to record and retain long-term memories, but its lack of focus is problematic!?! That certainly was not Frank Sinatra's voice-- and, at that time, he had an eponymous series running on ABC, not NBC!-- but that lack of focus keeps me from even hazarding a guess as to who that was playing the role of Sinatra, hanging out with a streetlamp, a la his iconic "Song for Young Lovers" debut LP on Capitol Records (1954), albeit with a then-recent "Pal Joey" (1957) trench-coat flare!?!?! (Double-checking, just now, this show certainly is not listed as a Sinatra credit, at IMDb.com.)

    Steve Allen was a brilliant and talented man, albeit not a noteworthy singer. Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme were certainly a handsome young couple (and great friends of Frank Sinatra, right up until his death), each with a wonderful voice. Dinah Shore had a very nice voice-- albeit too syrupy for my taste-- and apparently something else that allowed her to attract a much-younger Burt Reynolds, while he was a major movie star, back in the 1970s!?! Ann Sothern is less well-remembered, these days, but was a very popular television star, back then, after having been a fairly popular movie star, for many years, earlier, especially as the title character in the "Massie" series of film comedies.

    Checking Wikipedia.org, I see that Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme actually met on the original "Tonight!" show, hosted by Steve Allen, in June of 1953-- when Steve Lawrence was still only 17 years old! They married, in Las Vegas, exactly six weeks before this broadcast, and then served as the summer replacements for Steve Allen, just a few months after it. Steve Lawrence, who was seven years younger than his wife Eydie, is now, at age 80, the only one in that Kinescope clip who still is among us, the living.

    Here, courtesy of IMDb.com, is the full listing of credits for the cast and crew of that February 9, 1958, episode of “The Steve Allen Show” that included the aforementioned Kinescope clip:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0864188/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

    No Frank Sinatra– but who, among those listed, if anyone, was pretending to be Frank, heaven only knows!?!?!

  162. @Reg Cæsar
    ...and how did I leave out Walter Donaldson and Vincent Youmans? And George M Cohan!!

    And Stephen Foster.

  163. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Oh whatever. OR....they simply fade away and that's that. He had his time and his time is now past. People into Gangsta, R&B, Country, etc.

    Remember, the zenith of Sinatra's greatest popularity there were fewer music genres around. Rock was barely in the crib during this time and Rap was non-existent.

    To wit, Sinatra's greatest fan base remain the old and the dead so the idea that a few generations from now he'll be making a solid smash comeback when that world he inhabited is gone forever...come on.

    The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It's gone. Forever.

    Again, this isn't 1963 anymore.

    “The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It’s gone. Forever.”

    Yet, Sinatra-ism is triumphant even though current music isn’t Sinatra-like.

    Sinatra was a performer than composer-artists.

    Performance was key.

    With the Beatles, performance became perfunctory after awhile.
    They became such a phenom that teenyboppers came to scream than listen.
    Beatles admitted they couldn’t even hear themselves play, and the crowd sure couldn’t hear nothing. So, their performance, which had been tight and intense in the beginning, just became lax and routine. And in 1966, they quit touring altogether and decided to become performer-artists, like Brian Wilson who quit touring and hired Glen Campbell to fill in for him.

    In the 60s, the cult of the artist-composer took precedence. Dylan also left the concert scene in 1966 and hid out in Woodstock and was more interested in composition and recording that performing. He made JOHN WESLEY HARDING and BASEMENT TAPES(released on bootlegs until officially released in 75).

    There continued to be powerful stage acts like the Who and Stones and Doors, but even they were about the stunt and phenom than about well-done stage acts.
    The Who was unpredictable, and were hit and miss on stage. Stones concerts were often mobbed by concert goers. Jim Morrison was often stoned out of his mind, and his stage acts turned into psycho-dramas. It was as if such wildness and craziness were more authentic. And the Grateful Dead was always hit or miss. Some days, it was on, some days they were off.

    Sinatra belonged to an older school. Good performance mattered. Professionalism and consistency and planning mattered. Choreography mattered.

    And when we look at today’s acts, everything is well-planned, formulated, tightly controlled, rehearsed many times over, and etc.
    Taylor Swift is like a windup doll. Rihanna’s ‘umbrella’ is one hell of a sizzling hot ho act. If trash can be masterpiece, that is it. Truly hot sizzling ho stuff. More negresses like her, and negro men might never look at a white ho. Anyway, it’s very professionally done. And the choreography is very slick and ‘classic’. Artificial and broadway-like than raw and authentic like Woostock or Altamont or Monterey.
    Even if obscene, it’s visually very clean and scrubbed. It’s like a 50s musical number.

    Also, formula is so important now. Young people now know what they like: what kind of rhythm, what kind of beat, what kind of aura, what kind of movement, and etc.
    And the industry just cranks this out over and over and over, and kids eat it up like cookies and cake. Kids are not asking for a new and different and personal like Neil Young or new Dylan or new artist-composer. They are happy with the same rap crap, Taylor Swift songs, and etc. The same Rihanna hot smoking ho stuff. J-pop, Euro-pop, K-pop, Latin-pop, etc pretty much follow the same formula.

    So, in that sense, Sinatra-ism has won.

    Btw, even if most people don’t listen to Sinatra, as long as there are movies, some of them will use his songs. Not to my taste, but some of them are great. And they are about men and women, as opposed to kids.

    The ending of BABY IT’S YOU. It’s beautiful cuz they are dancing as man and woman than boy and girl. They will part but they share a maturity of emtions that can’t be found in rock or youth pop.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    The biggest problem with trying to start, say, a rock band and get good at it is that there is no place for young people to gig and get feedback (and maybe a little money). You have to be 21 to play most alcohol serving places, and most of those want cover bands. The local venues with live music have Dennis the doctor, Larry the lawyer and Charlie the CPA, in their forties to sixties, with their vintage axes and boutique amps and snazzy stagewear and are being paid by them to let them play.

    That was why all those bands came out of CBGBs in New York, and later Athens and Akron, Ohio and a few other places with "scenes" like Seattle. There would be some place or a couple of them where people with marginal skills but some potential could gig-a lot-and some of them got good.

    Modern suburbs are terrible for that.

    Most blacks got their start in church music, and in certain places fundie churches provide white musicians an opportunity to play out, but you have to play somewhat different music. This seems to produce a lot more female singers, like Katy Perry and Amy Grant.
  164. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    While I agree that Beatles masterpieces such as "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" and "Yellow Submarine" will contine to be highly influential on future generations, he's probably right about Kraftwerk.

    The problem with the Beatles is that there's just too much hype. There are lots of people who buy Beatles albums, but it's just because they feel like they're supposed to. They never actually listen to them. So, the average person under thirty probably won't know too many Beatles songs either, except the ones that are still played on classic radio, which they probably won't listen to. And I doubt too many of them will be really all that impressed by "I Wanna Hold Your Hand".

    Maybe they should be, I don't know. But I don't think they will be.

    “And I doubt too many of them will be really all that impressed by ‘I Wanna Hold Your Hand’.”

    Then they are idiots.

    All the seminal Beatles stuff is the early stuff to 1965. They were good to the end, but their later stuff didn’t matter much with the possible exception of Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane. Others were doing just as good stuff, even better.

    But from 62 to 65, they were changing musical culture, and I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND is still fresh, explosive, and totally remarkable. SHE LOVES YOU is even greater.
    Beatles got more complicated and hit the peak with TICKET TO RIDE and some other songs in 65. That was their peak musically.

    Kids today might like early Beatles cuz stuff by Katy Perry and Swift owe a lot of that kind of burst-of-fresh-mint pop.
    It’s like Cyndi Lauperism with GIRLS JUST WANNA HAVE FUN, surely one of zaniest and most irresistible songs ever.

    • Replies: @cthulhu


    the seminal Beatles stuff is the early stuff to 1965. They were good to the end, but their later stuff didn’t matter much with the possible exception of Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane. Others were doing just as good stuff, even better.

     

    I think you're off by a year; Revolver was released in 1966, and for me (and lots of others, including a lot of music critics) that is their high water mark. Although Abbey Road almost gets there. The decision to stop playing live was IMHO a big part of their decline; rock music is at its most vital when played live by a good live band, and all of the time that the Beatles spent playing live in Liverpool and Hamburg made them into a damned good live band. Turning into exclusively studio auteurs not only diminished their songwriting, but was a part of the alienation among the band members that led to their breakup. The "White Album" is the best example: one great song (Harrison's While My Guitar Gently Weeps, a good song made great by Clapton's uncredited lead guitar), a handful of good songs, and a bunch of total drek. But they weren't a band at that point; just musicians reluctantly collaborating.
    , @anon
    I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND is still fresh, explosive, and totally remarkable.

    Remarkable? Are you joking?

    "Elenore" by The Turtles is a better song, and it was making fun of songs like that.

    But, to each his own, I guess. I have no problem with people liking The Beatles. Just pointing out the fact that nobody under the age of thirty is going to think of it as "explosive" or "fresh".
  165. @Former Darfur
    Chuck Berry got his thing from jump bands like Chick Webb and Illinois Jacquet and stripped it to its essence. They got it from Cab Calloway and the now forgotten Slim Gaillard. If you want to play rock and roll you had better start with Chuck Berry.

    Rap came from blacks who couldn't sing talking over the records of Chic, who in turn got their stuff secondhand, from white arena rock bands, from the same sources. (Later they went to the source.)

    All music that is uniquely American comes from either Jews in New York or a couple of dozen high-IQ mixed breed blacks in fin-de siecle New Orleans, 1920s New York or 1970s NY and California.

    Other than that, you have Anglo-Saxon and Celtic folk songs, classical music, the British music hall and a smattering of Scandinavian and Eastern European musics. If there is anything else I don't know what it is, and I studied musicology and music education in college and played in country, folk, rock, and church groups for almost forty years.

    “Rap came from blacks who couldn’t sing talking over the records of Chic”

    I always assumed they got it from Jamaican reggae – in the early to mid-70s “toasting” over the rhythm track became popular – here’s 1972 U Roy

    and of course the “toasters” probably got it from the calypsonians of Trinidad who would compose odes to pretty much everything – like a 1951 UK election

  166. @Anon
    "And I doubt too many of them will be really all that impressed by 'I Wanna Hold Your Hand'."

    Then they are idiots.

    All the seminal Beatles stuff is the early stuff to 1965. They were good to the end, but their later stuff didn't matter much with the possible exception of Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane. Others were doing just as good stuff, even better.

    But from 62 to 65, they were changing musical culture, and I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND is still fresh, explosive, and totally remarkable. SHE LOVES YOU is even greater.
    Beatles got more complicated and hit the peak with TICKET TO RIDE and some other songs in 65. That was their peak musically.

    Kids today might like early Beatles cuz stuff by Katy Perry and Swift owe a lot of that kind of burst-of-fresh-mint pop.
    It's like Cyndi Lauperism with GIRLS JUST WANNA HAVE FUN, surely one of zaniest and most irresistible songs ever.

    the seminal Beatles stuff is the early stuff to 1965. They were good to the end, but their later stuff didn’t matter much with the possible exception of Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane. Others were doing just as good stuff, even better.

    I think you’re off by a year; Revolver was released in 1966, and for me (and lots of others, including a lot of music critics) that is their high water mark. Although Abbey Road almost gets there. The decision to stop playing live was IMHO a big part of their decline; rock music is at its most vital when played live by a good live band, and all of the time that the Beatles spent playing live in Liverpool and Hamburg made them into a damned good live band. Turning into exclusively studio auteurs not only diminished their songwriting, but was a part of the alienation among the band members that led to their breakup. The “White Album” is the best example: one great song (Harrison’s While My Guitar Gently Weeps, a good song made great by Clapton’s uncredited lead guitar), a handful of good songs, and a bunch of total drek. But they weren’t a band at that point; just musicians reluctantly collaborating.

    • Replies: @Anon
    "I think you’re off by a year; Revolver was released in 1966, and for me (and lots of others, including a lot of music critics) that is their high water mark. Although Abbey Road almost gets there. "

    No, nein, nyet, ie.

    I've heard that stuff so many times, but it's from people who don't really get the Beatles.
    Maybe one can argue that the songs complement each other the best(than in other Beatles albums), and it's their closest to something like a 'concept album'.
    SGT PEPPER's concept is a bit too rich and starchy.

    Revolver is a great album, sort of. Lots of fine songs and etc, but how anyone can say it's their best is beyond me.

    For some reason, like the stark b/w cover, the sound is like an aural equivalent of b/w. The richness isn't there. Though stereo, it sounds mono. It sounds like it's been recorded through a telephone.

    And then, take the songs. Mostly fine, but there isn't a single great track except for maybe ELEANOR RIGBY, which is a bit artsy and poetsy.

    Among the rest, FOR NO ONE and I'M ONLY SLEEPING are exceptional, but the former is no match to YESTERDAY and the latter is no NORWEGIAN WOOD and only anticipates STRAWBERRY FIELDS FOREVER.
    SHE SAID, SHE SAID is also exceptional but rather strained with avant-garde touches and proto-psychedelia.

    Other top-notch songs are AND YOUR BIRD CAN SING and GOT TO GET YOU INTO MY LIFE, but both are bit simple, and the latter ends badly. Also, for a Motown-inspired song, GOT TO GET lacks groove and bounce.

    YELLOW SUBMARINE is a good children's song(though supposedly about drugs). Come to think of it, LUCY IN THE SKY in SGT PEPPER is also essentially a druggy children's song. Why were they making children's music?

    TOMORROW NEVER KNOWS is Lennon at its pompous almost-worst. It's overloaded with mumbo jumbo from the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It now sounds dated and ridiculous. Lennon was trying so hard to be weird, spiritual, profound, surreal, and etc. It's the Moody Blues way, like NIGHTS IN WHITE SATIN. And it got more ridiculous later with I'M THE WALRUS, which is really nothing more than a Dr. Seuss song. WALRUS is musically sort of amazing, but it's gimmicks and nonsense lyrics that really amount to nothing.
    Now, Dylan could enter the Strange Zone without such cheap tricks. He could plunge the depths while Lennon just splashed around with dyed water.
    Lennon was fantastically talented pop star, and he could be poetic and artistic with personal musings like NORWEGIAN WOOD. But he was deadly when he got 'profound', and TOMORROW NEVER KNOWS blows.

    As for ABBEY ROAD, it's one hell of an album with good tunes and dazzling orchestration on the second side, but it's all too slick and slight. SOMETHING by Harrison is probably its only great song. COME TOGETHER could have been powerful with a raw raggedy production, but it's too neat for its own good.

    Now, let me set you straight.

    If you're gonna pick the Beatles best album, it has to be

    WITH THE BEATLES, HELP, or RUBBER SOUL.

    WITH THE BEATLES(or US version MEET THE BEATLES with 'I wanna hold your hand' missing in WITH) may now sound elementary, but it features the essential Beatles sound that made them a phenom in the first place. It's a sound like no other. It still sounds fresh and new whenever it is played. And it's simply real, unlike punk rock that came later and tried so hard to 'go back to the real'. There is no idea or gimmick behind it. Lennon and McCartney, after so much practice and passion, finally stumbled on their gold. The slot machine of their creativity hit the jackpot. The music just tumbles out and explodes everywhere.

    But some might say WITH THE BEATLES is a bit one-dimensional since it's all about thrills and not much else. Beatles hadn't expanded their musical vocabulary yet. Okay, fair enough, but it is powerful stuff.

    And then you got HELP! It is surely the Beatles album with the most number of great songs: Help, Ticket to Ride, and Yesterday. All three are pure gold. Ticket to Ride may be their best song, Help is brilliant, and Yesterday, as we know, is an all-time classic.
    Three mega-songs on one album. That is truly remarkable.
    And it also a bunch of wonderful songs like You're Gonna Lose that Girl, Night Before, Another Girl, I Need You, You've Got to Hide Your Love Away, It's Only Shove, I've Just Seen a Face.
    So, one could easily choose HELP as their best.
    But what are the strikes against it.
    Some might say that it's more like a collection of singles than a comprehensive album united by a theme. One might also say that it's a transitional work caught somewhere between early style and more mature style. It's with RUBBER SOUL that the Beatles really completed the transition.
    And it's true enough that HELP isn't as unified or consistent in sound or theme than RUBBER or REVOLVER.
    But as I grow older, I care more about good songs than some concept or whatever. And HELP, with its titanic three songs and some very good ones, could be chosen as their best.

    And then you got RUBBER SOUL.
    I loved this album in high school. I mean the US version, which sounds more organic than the British version, but the latter has more songs. Drive My Car is a good song and Nowhere Man is special, but they are stylistically and thematically at odds with the rest. The US version actually gained something by including I've Just Seen a Face and It's Only Love(from the British HELP).

    I still think it's a great album, but let's face it. It has only one truly great song: NORWEGIAN WOOD. It has two excellent ones in NOWHERE MAN and YOU WON'T SEE ME. And IN MY LIFE is a nice beautiful song. Others are pretty good but nothing really special. I think RUBBER SOUL got a lot of mileage because it was one of the first of its kind: an intelligent and 'mature' rock album. Critics and fans alike were amazed that the Fab Four showed this other side of them, the ability to grow and change. This was something Dave Clark Five lacked and so they faded; they were stuck in their original sound forever.

    But in retrospect, except for NORWEGIAN WOOD and NOWHERE MAN(wonderful but essentially a children's song), RUBBER SOUL is sounding more and more thin as time goes by. Do I wanna listen to Michelle, Run for Your Life, Wait, The Word, etc?
    Okay, GIRL is nice, but then it has bouzouki and I can't resist that.

    It's good stuff but something you outgrow.

    One might mention the White Album, and if it were reduced to a single album, it could be in the competition. But there's too much junk there.
  167. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    "And I doubt too many of them will be really all that impressed by 'I Wanna Hold Your Hand'."

    Then they are idiots.

    All the seminal Beatles stuff is the early stuff to 1965. They were good to the end, but their later stuff didn't matter much with the possible exception of Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane. Others were doing just as good stuff, even better.

    But from 62 to 65, they were changing musical culture, and I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND is still fresh, explosive, and totally remarkable. SHE LOVES YOU is even greater.
    Beatles got more complicated and hit the peak with TICKET TO RIDE and some other songs in 65. That was their peak musically.

    Kids today might like early Beatles cuz stuff by Katy Perry and Swift owe a lot of that kind of burst-of-fresh-mint pop.
    It's like Cyndi Lauperism with GIRLS JUST WANNA HAVE FUN, surely one of zaniest and most irresistible songs ever.

    I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND is still fresh, explosive, and totally remarkable.

    Remarkable? Are you joking?

    “Elenore” by The Turtles is a better song, and it was making fun of songs like that.

    But, to each his own, I guess. I have no problem with people liking The Beatles. Just pointing out the fact that nobody under the age of thirty is going to think of it as “explosive” or “fresh”.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND is still fresh, explosive, and totally remarkable.

    Remarkable? Are you joking?


    I gather you haven't heard Al Green's cover.
    , @D. K.
    "Elenore" is a great pop record! As I recall, from the liner notes of a Turtles anthology that I bought, forty or more years ago, they locked themselves in a room and wrote it, very quickly, after their record company had told them that "Grim Reaper of Love" was not the label's idea of a potential hit!?! They said that they put as many cliches into it as they could think of-- but the lyric is pretty much beside the point, is it not?!?

    http://www.discogs.com/Turtles-Happy-Together-Again-The-Turtles-Greatest-Hits/release/1439105
  168. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @cthulhu


    the seminal Beatles stuff is the early stuff to 1965. They were good to the end, but their later stuff didn’t matter much with the possible exception of Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane. Others were doing just as good stuff, even better.

     

    I think you're off by a year; Revolver was released in 1966, and for me (and lots of others, including a lot of music critics) that is their high water mark. Although Abbey Road almost gets there. The decision to stop playing live was IMHO a big part of their decline; rock music is at its most vital when played live by a good live band, and all of the time that the Beatles spent playing live in Liverpool and Hamburg made them into a damned good live band. Turning into exclusively studio auteurs not only diminished their songwriting, but was a part of the alienation among the band members that led to their breakup. The "White Album" is the best example: one great song (Harrison's While My Guitar Gently Weeps, a good song made great by Clapton's uncredited lead guitar), a handful of good songs, and a bunch of total drek. But they weren't a band at that point; just musicians reluctantly collaborating.

    “I think you’re off by a year; Revolver was released in 1966, and for me (and lots of others, including a lot of music critics) that is their high water mark. Although Abbey Road almost gets there. ”

    No, nein, nyet, ie.

    I’ve heard that stuff so many times, but it’s from people who don’t really get the Beatles.
    Maybe one can argue that the songs complement each other the best(than in other Beatles albums), and it’s their closest to something like a ‘concept album’.
    SGT PEPPER’s concept is a bit too rich and starchy.

    Revolver is a great album, sort of. Lots of fine songs and etc, but how anyone can say it’s their best is beyond me.

    For some reason, like the stark b/w cover, the sound is like an aural equivalent of b/w. The richness isn’t there. Though stereo, it sounds mono. It sounds like it’s been recorded through a telephone.

    And then, take the songs. Mostly fine, but there isn’t a single great track except for maybe ELEANOR RIGBY, which is a bit artsy and poetsy.

    Among the rest, FOR NO ONE and I’M ONLY SLEEPING are exceptional, but the former is no match to YESTERDAY and the latter is no NORWEGIAN WOOD and only anticipates STRAWBERRY FIELDS FOREVER.
    SHE SAID, SHE SAID is also exceptional but rather strained with avant-garde touches and proto-psychedelia.

    Other top-notch songs are AND YOUR BIRD CAN SING and GOT TO GET YOU INTO MY LIFE, but both are bit simple, and the latter ends badly. Also, for a Motown-inspired song, GOT TO GET lacks groove and bounce.

    YELLOW SUBMARINE is a good children’s song(though supposedly about drugs). Come to think of it, LUCY IN THE SKY in SGT PEPPER is also essentially a druggy children’s song. Why were they making children’s music?

    TOMORROW NEVER KNOWS is Lennon at its pompous almost-worst. It’s overloaded with mumbo jumbo from the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It now sounds dated and ridiculous. Lennon was trying so hard to be weird, spiritual, profound, surreal, and etc. It’s the Moody Blues way, like NIGHTS IN WHITE SATIN. And it got more ridiculous later with I’M THE WALRUS, which is really nothing more than a Dr. Seuss song. WALRUS is musically sort of amazing, but it’s gimmicks and nonsense lyrics that really amount to nothing.
    Now, Dylan could enter the Strange Zone without such cheap tricks. He could plunge the depths while Lennon just splashed around with dyed water.
    Lennon was fantastically talented pop star, and he could be poetic and artistic with personal musings like NORWEGIAN WOOD. But he was deadly when he got ‘profound’, and TOMORROW NEVER KNOWS blows.

    As for ABBEY ROAD, it’s one hell of an album with good tunes and dazzling orchestration on the second side, but it’s all too slick and slight. SOMETHING by Harrison is probably its only great song. COME TOGETHER could have been powerful with a raw raggedy production, but it’s too neat for its own good.

    Now, let me set you straight.

    If you’re gonna pick the Beatles best album, it has to be

    WITH THE BEATLES, HELP, or RUBBER SOUL.

    WITH THE BEATLES(or US version MEET THE BEATLES with ‘I wanna hold your hand’ missing in WITH) may now sound elementary, but it features the essential Beatles sound that made them a phenom in the first place. It’s a sound like no other. It still sounds fresh and new whenever it is played. And it’s simply real, unlike punk rock that came later and tried so hard to ‘go back to the real’. There is no idea or gimmick behind it. Lennon and McCartney, after so much practice and passion, finally stumbled on their gold. The slot machine of their creativity hit the jackpot. The music just tumbles out and explodes everywhere.

    But some might say WITH THE BEATLES is a bit one-dimensional since it’s all about thrills and not much else. Beatles hadn’t expanded their musical vocabulary yet. Okay, fair enough, but it is powerful stuff.

    And then you got HELP! It is surely the Beatles album with the most number of great songs: Help, Ticket to Ride, and Yesterday. All three are pure gold. Ticket to Ride may be their best song, Help is brilliant, and Yesterday, as we know, is an all-time classic.
    Three mega-songs on one album. That is truly remarkable.
    And it also a bunch of wonderful songs like You’re Gonna Lose that Girl, Night Before, Another Girl, I Need You, You’ve Got to Hide Your Love Away, It’s Only Shove, I’ve Just Seen a Face.
    So, one could easily choose HELP as their best.
    But what are the strikes against it.
    Some might say that it’s more like a collection of singles than a comprehensive album united by a theme. One might also say that it’s a transitional work caught somewhere between early style and more mature style. It’s with RUBBER SOUL that the Beatles really completed the transition.
    And it’s true enough that HELP isn’t as unified or consistent in sound or theme than RUBBER or REVOLVER.
    But as I grow older, I care more about good songs than some concept or whatever. And HELP, with its titanic three songs and some very good ones, could be chosen as their best.

    And then you got RUBBER SOUL.
    I loved this album in high school. I mean the US version, which sounds more organic than the British version, but the latter has more songs. Drive My Car is a good song and Nowhere Man is special, but they are stylistically and thematically at odds with the rest. The US version actually gained something by including I’ve Just Seen a Face and It’s Only Love(from the British HELP).

    I still think it’s a great album, but let’s face it. It has only one truly great song: NORWEGIAN WOOD. It has two excellent ones in NOWHERE MAN and YOU WON’T SEE ME. And IN MY LIFE is a nice beautiful song. Others are pretty good but nothing really special. I think RUBBER SOUL got a lot of mileage because it was one of the first of its kind: an intelligent and ‘mature’ rock album. Critics and fans alike were amazed that the Fab Four showed this other side of them, the ability to grow and change. This was something Dave Clark Five lacked and so they faded; they were stuck in their original sound forever.

    But in retrospect, except for NORWEGIAN WOOD and NOWHERE MAN(wonderful but essentially a children’s song), RUBBER SOUL is sounding more and more thin as time goes by. Do I wanna listen to Michelle, Run for Your Life, Wait, The Word, etc?
    Okay, GIRL is nice, but then it has bouzouki and I can’t resist that.

    It’s good stuff but something you outgrow.

    One might mention the White Album, and if it were reduced to a single album, it could be in the competition. But there’s too much junk there.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Beatles albums frequently left off singles from the album recording session that were rushed out on 45s. The White Album is pretty thin, for example, but if it included Hey Jude and Revolution it would be a lot better.

    Their 1970 "Hey Jude" album of singles that (mostly) weren't on albums is pretty amazing:

    No. Title Length
    1. "Can't Buy Me Love" 2:19
    2. "I Should Have Known Better" 2:39
    3. "Paperback Writer" 2:14
    4. "Rain" 2:58
    5. "Lady Madonna" 2:14
    6. "Revolution" 3:21
    7. "Hey Jude" 7:06
    8. "Old Brown Shoe" 3:16
    9. "Don't Let Me Down" 3:30
    10. "The Ballad of John and Yoko" 2:55

    , @D. K.
    As an erstwhile Beatlemaniac-- who got an A+ on his English 101 term paper, over forty years ago, on the rise of Beatlemania in America-- my favorite (original) Beatles album is "Tutti per Uno"-- the Italian version of "A Hard Day's Night" that I bought in Rome, barely six months after my scoring a 98% on that aforementioned term paper, during my first semester of college!

    http://www.discogs.com/Beatles-Tutti-Per-Uno-A-Hard-Days-Night/release/3382095
  169. @flyingtiger
    My parents hated Sinatra. They were from the great depression/ greatest generation era. Sinatra was one of the most infamous draft dodger of his time. For that he was hated by my parents. My parents passed away a long time ago, but like a good son I still hate Sinatra for them.

    “My parents hated Sinatra.”

    He wasn’t a sap. He knew his country wasn’t his blood.

  170. @Anon
    "I think you’re off by a year; Revolver was released in 1966, and for me (and lots of others, including a lot of music critics) that is their high water mark. Although Abbey Road almost gets there. "

    No, nein, nyet, ie.

    I've heard that stuff so many times, but it's from people who don't really get the Beatles.
    Maybe one can argue that the songs complement each other the best(than in other Beatles albums), and it's their closest to something like a 'concept album'.
    SGT PEPPER's concept is a bit too rich and starchy.

    Revolver is a great album, sort of. Lots of fine songs and etc, but how anyone can say it's their best is beyond me.

    For some reason, like the stark b/w cover, the sound is like an aural equivalent of b/w. The richness isn't there. Though stereo, it sounds mono. It sounds like it's been recorded through a telephone.

    And then, take the songs. Mostly fine, but there isn't a single great track except for maybe ELEANOR RIGBY, which is a bit artsy and poetsy.

    Among the rest, FOR NO ONE and I'M ONLY SLEEPING are exceptional, but the former is no match to YESTERDAY and the latter is no NORWEGIAN WOOD and only anticipates STRAWBERRY FIELDS FOREVER.
    SHE SAID, SHE SAID is also exceptional but rather strained with avant-garde touches and proto-psychedelia.

    Other top-notch songs are AND YOUR BIRD CAN SING and GOT TO GET YOU INTO MY LIFE, but both are bit simple, and the latter ends badly. Also, for a Motown-inspired song, GOT TO GET lacks groove and bounce.

    YELLOW SUBMARINE is a good children's song(though supposedly about drugs). Come to think of it, LUCY IN THE SKY in SGT PEPPER is also essentially a druggy children's song. Why were they making children's music?

    TOMORROW NEVER KNOWS is Lennon at its pompous almost-worst. It's overloaded with mumbo jumbo from the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It now sounds dated and ridiculous. Lennon was trying so hard to be weird, spiritual, profound, surreal, and etc. It's the Moody Blues way, like NIGHTS IN WHITE SATIN. And it got more ridiculous later with I'M THE WALRUS, which is really nothing more than a Dr. Seuss song. WALRUS is musically sort of amazing, but it's gimmicks and nonsense lyrics that really amount to nothing.
    Now, Dylan could enter the Strange Zone without such cheap tricks. He could plunge the depths while Lennon just splashed around with dyed water.
    Lennon was fantastically talented pop star, and he could be poetic and artistic with personal musings like NORWEGIAN WOOD. But he was deadly when he got 'profound', and TOMORROW NEVER KNOWS blows.

    As for ABBEY ROAD, it's one hell of an album with good tunes and dazzling orchestration on the second side, but it's all too slick and slight. SOMETHING by Harrison is probably its only great song. COME TOGETHER could have been powerful with a raw raggedy production, but it's too neat for its own good.

    Now, let me set you straight.

    If you're gonna pick the Beatles best album, it has to be

    WITH THE BEATLES, HELP, or RUBBER SOUL.

    WITH THE BEATLES(or US version MEET THE BEATLES with 'I wanna hold your hand' missing in WITH) may now sound elementary, but it features the essential Beatles sound that made them a phenom in the first place. It's a sound like no other. It still sounds fresh and new whenever it is played. And it's simply real, unlike punk rock that came later and tried so hard to 'go back to the real'. There is no idea or gimmick behind it. Lennon and McCartney, after so much practice and passion, finally stumbled on their gold. The slot machine of their creativity hit the jackpot. The music just tumbles out and explodes everywhere.

    But some might say WITH THE BEATLES is a bit one-dimensional since it's all about thrills and not much else. Beatles hadn't expanded their musical vocabulary yet. Okay, fair enough, but it is powerful stuff.

    And then you got HELP! It is surely the Beatles album with the most number of great songs: Help, Ticket to Ride, and Yesterday. All three are pure gold. Ticket to Ride may be their best song, Help is brilliant, and Yesterday, as we know, is an all-time classic.
    Three mega-songs on one album. That is truly remarkable.
    And it also a bunch of wonderful songs like You're Gonna Lose that Girl, Night Before, Another Girl, I Need You, You've Got to Hide Your Love Away, It's Only Shove, I've Just Seen a Face.
    So, one could easily choose HELP as their best.
    But what are the strikes against it.
    Some might say that it's more like a collection of singles than a comprehensive album united by a theme. One might also say that it's a transitional work caught somewhere between early style and more mature style. It's with RUBBER SOUL that the Beatles really completed the transition.
    And it's true enough that HELP isn't as unified or consistent in sound or theme than RUBBER or REVOLVER.
    But as I grow older, I care more about good songs than some concept or whatever. And HELP, with its titanic three songs and some very good ones, could be chosen as their best.

    And then you got RUBBER SOUL.
    I loved this album in high school. I mean the US version, which sounds more organic than the British version, but the latter has more songs. Drive My Car is a good song and Nowhere Man is special, but they are stylistically and thematically at odds with the rest. The US version actually gained something by including I've Just Seen a Face and It's Only Love(from the British HELP).

    I still think it's a great album, but let's face it. It has only one truly great song: NORWEGIAN WOOD. It has two excellent ones in NOWHERE MAN and YOU WON'T SEE ME. And IN MY LIFE is a nice beautiful song. Others are pretty good but nothing really special. I think RUBBER SOUL got a lot of mileage because it was one of the first of its kind: an intelligent and 'mature' rock album. Critics and fans alike were amazed that the Fab Four showed this other side of them, the ability to grow and change. This was something Dave Clark Five lacked and so they faded; they were stuck in their original sound forever.

    But in retrospect, except for NORWEGIAN WOOD and NOWHERE MAN(wonderful but essentially a children's song), RUBBER SOUL is sounding more and more thin as time goes by. Do I wanna listen to Michelle, Run for Your Life, Wait, The Word, etc?
    Okay, GIRL is nice, but then it has bouzouki and I can't resist that.

    It's good stuff but something you outgrow.

    One might mention the White Album, and if it were reduced to a single album, it could be in the competition. But there's too much junk there.

    Beatles albums frequently left off singles from the album recording session that were rushed out on 45s. The White Album is pretty thin, for example, but if it included Hey Jude and Revolution it would be a lot better.

    Their 1970 “Hey Jude” album of singles that (mostly) weren’t on albums is pretty amazing:

    No. Title Length
    1. “Can’t Buy Me Love” 2:19
    2. “I Should Have Known Better” 2:39
    3. “Paperback Writer” 2:14
    4. “Rain” 2:58
    5. “Lady Madonna” 2:14
    6. “Revolution” 3:21
    7. “Hey Jude” 7:06
    8. “Old Brown Shoe” 3:16
    9. “Don’t Let Me Down” 3:30
    10. “The Ballad of John and Yoko” 2:55

    • Replies: @D. K.
    Prior to the Beatles' forming Apple Corps Ltd., in January 1968, Capitol Records published (most of) their American albums. Capitol famously cut songs off of British versions of Beatles albums, and later collected the excised songs in albums, much as Capitol previously had published Sinatra albums composed of previously released singles, and some previously unreleased album tracks, every couple of years. The infamous "butcher cover" of the Beatles' "Yesterday and Today" album, in 1966, which was quickly recalled, and is now a collector's item, was thought by many people to be a resentful statement by the group about the way that Capitol had treated their work, even though the Beatles claimed, instead, that it was a political statement against the Vietnam War!?!
  171. @anon
    I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND is still fresh, explosive, and totally remarkable.

    Remarkable? Are you joking?

    "Elenore" by The Turtles is a better song, and it was making fun of songs like that.

    But, to each his own, I guess. I have no problem with people liking The Beatles. Just pointing out the fact that nobody under the age of thirty is going to think of it as "explosive" or "fresh".

    I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND is still fresh, explosive, and totally remarkable.

    Remarkable? Are you joking?

    I gather you haven’t heard Al Green’s cover.

  172. Got You Under My Skin is a great Cole Porter classic and a jazz standard, but the question always remains in my mind when I hear it as to whether the song was really originally a sneaky ode to heroin.

    I’d tried so not to give in
    I said to myself this affair never will go so well
    But why should I try to resist when baby, I know so well
    I’ve got you under my skin
    I’d sacrifice anything come what might for the sake of having you near
    In spite of a warning voice that comes in the night and repeats
    Repeats in my ear
    Don’t you know little fool
    You never can win

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    the song was really originally a sneaky ode to heroin
     
    That would be this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkysjcs5vFU
    , @D. K.
    ***

    I get no kick from champagne
    Mere alcohol
    Doesn't thrill me at all
    So, tell me, why should it be true
    That I get a kick out of you

    Some get a kick from cocaine
    I'm sure that if
    I took even one sniff
    It would bore me terrifically too
    Yet I get a kick out of you

    ***

    http://www.lyricsfreak.com/f/frank+sinatra/i+get+a+kick+out+of+you_20055132.html
  173. @D. K.
    The one time that I traveled to Palm Springs, in the spring of 1996, I was really struck by just how prominent the mountain is. It looked like the sun would appear to be going down behind it in the afternoon, even during the summer solstice!?!

    The Palm Springs golf courses near the base of the mountain look spectacular in the morning sun but are in a weird gloom for most of the afternoon.

  174. While the Sinatra centenary was unworthy of a Doodle, I see that B.K.S. Iyengar got one for his 97th birthday today.

    Happy birthday, B.!

  175. Well, I’m disappointed, I had hoped at least on person would tell me that the song I posted had the worst singing they had ever heard. I like the song and the singing, but I had deliberately chosen it for it’s trolling value. No one took the bait (for once). Of course it is quite possible that no one even listened to it.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    Just for purposes of self-actualization, I have listened to that abysmal recording and, in reference to someone else's post, "you have my gratitude." It was, by the way, awful.
  176. @Jonathan Mason
    Got You Under My Skin is a great Cole Porter classic and a jazz standard, but the question always remains in my mind when I hear it as to whether the song was really originally a sneaky ode to heroin.

    I'd tried so not to give in
    I said to myself this affair never will go so well
    But why should I try to resist when baby, I know so well
    I've got you under my skin
    I'd sacrifice anything come what might for the sake of having you near
    In spite of a warning voice that comes in the night and repeats
    Repeats in my ear
    Don't you know little fool
    You never can win

     

    the song was really originally a sneaky ode to heroin

    That would be this:

  177. @Anon
    "The Beatles changed everything, including the pop musical world of Sinatra. It’s gone. Forever."

    Yet, Sinatra-ism is triumphant even though current music isn't Sinatra-like.

    Sinatra was a performer than composer-artists.

    Performance was key.

    With the Beatles, performance became perfunctory after awhile.
    They became such a phenom that teenyboppers came to scream than listen.
    Beatles admitted they couldn't even hear themselves play, and the crowd sure couldn't hear nothing. So, their performance, which had been tight and intense in the beginning, just became lax and routine. And in 1966, they quit touring altogether and decided to become performer-artists, like Brian Wilson who quit touring and hired Glen Campbell to fill in for him.

    In the 60s, the cult of the artist-composer took precedence. Dylan also left the concert scene in 1966 and hid out in Woodstock and was more interested in composition and recording that performing. He made JOHN WESLEY HARDING and BASEMENT TAPES(released on bootlegs until officially released in 75).

    There continued to be powerful stage acts like the Who and Stones and Doors, but even they were about the stunt and phenom than about well-done stage acts.
    The Who was unpredictable, and were hit and miss on stage. Stones concerts were often mobbed by concert goers. Jim Morrison was often stoned out of his mind, and his stage acts turned into psycho-dramas. It was as if such wildness and craziness were more authentic. And the Grateful Dead was always hit or miss. Some days, it was on, some days they were off.

    Sinatra belonged to an older school. Good performance mattered. Professionalism and consistency and planning mattered. Choreography mattered.

    And when we look at today's acts, everything is well-planned, formulated, tightly controlled, rehearsed many times over, and etc.
    Taylor Swift is like a windup doll. Rihanna's 'umbrella' is one hell of a sizzling hot ho act. If trash can be masterpiece, that is it. Truly hot sizzling ho stuff. More negresses like her, and negro men might never look at a white ho. Anyway, it's very professionally done. And the choreography is very slick and 'classic'. Artificial and broadway-like than raw and authentic like Woostock or Altamont or Monterey.
    Even if obscene, it's visually very clean and scrubbed. It's like a 50s musical number.

    Also, formula is so important now. Young people now know what they like: what kind of rhythm, what kind of beat, what kind of aura, what kind of movement, and etc.
    And the industry just cranks this out over and over and over, and kids eat it up like cookies and cake. Kids are not asking for a new and different and personal like Neil Young or new Dylan or new artist-composer. They are happy with the same rap crap, Taylor Swift songs, and etc. The same Rihanna hot smoking ho stuff. J-pop, Euro-pop, K-pop, Latin-pop, etc pretty much follow the same formula.

    So, in that sense, Sinatra-ism has won.

    Btw, even if most people don't listen to Sinatra, as long as there are movies, some of them will use his songs. Not to my taste, but some of them are great. And they are about men and women, as opposed to kids.

    The ending of BABY IT'S YOU. It's beautiful cuz they are dancing as man and woman than boy and girl. They will part but they share a maturity of emtions that can't be found in rock or youth pop.

    The biggest problem with trying to start, say, a rock band and get good at it is that there is no place for young people to gig and get feedback (and maybe a little money). You have to be 21 to play most alcohol serving places, and most of those want cover bands. The local venues with live music have Dennis the doctor, Larry the lawyer and Charlie the CPA, in their forties to sixties, with their vintage axes and boutique amps and snazzy stagewear and are being paid by them to let them play.

    That was why all those bands came out of CBGBs in New York, and later Athens and Akron, Ohio and a few other places with “scenes” like Seattle. There would be some place or a couple of them where people with marginal skills but some potential could gig-a lot-and some of them got good.

    Modern suburbs are terrible for that.

    Most blacks got their start in church music, and in certain places fundie churches provide white musicians an opportunity to play out, but you have to play somewhat different music. This seems to produce a lot more female singers, like Katy Perry and Amy Grant.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I was driving through Oceanside next to the giant Marine base at Camp Pendleton a few years ago and a theater advertised three local hard rock bands for $5.
  178. @Former Darfur
    The biggest problem with trying to start, say, a rock band and get good at it is that there is no place for young people to gig and get feedback (and maybe a little money). You have to be 21 to play most alcohol serving places, and most of those want cover bands. The local venues with live music have Dennis the doctor, Larry the lawyer and Charlie the CPA, in their forties to sixties, with their vintage axes and boutique amps and snazzy stagewear and are being paid by them to let them play.

    That was why all those bands came out of CBGBs in New York, and later Athens and Akron, Ohio and a few other places with "scenes" like Seattle. There would be some place or a couple of them where people with marginal skills but some potential could gig-a lot-and some of them got good.

    Modern suburbs are terrible for that.

    Most blacks got their start in church music, and in certain places fundie churches provide white musicians an opportunity to play out, but you have to play somewhat different music. This seems to produce a lot more female singers, like Katy Perry and Amy Grant.

    I was driving through Oceanside next to the giant Marine base at Camp Pendleton a few years ago and a theater advertised three local hard rock bands for $5.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Be interesting to know if they had to "buy the hall"-i.e., guarantee the ticket sales either by agreeing to pay the difference or actually paying the venue and selling tickets or door admission themselves. That became the mode on the Sunset Strip in the eighties after Randy Rhoads' brother, Kelle, made such an offer to a venue and it quickly became pervasive: LA punk rockers were famously waging a "stop pay to play" campaign in the early 90s.
  179. @Former Darfur
    Chuck Berry got his thing from jump bands like Chick Webb and Illinois Jacquet and stripped it to its essence. They got it from Cab Calloway and the now forgotten Slim Gaillard. If you want to play rock and roll you had better start with Chuck Berry.

    Rap came from blacks who couldn't sing talking over the records of Chic, who in turn got their stuff secondhand, from white arena rock bands, from the same sources. (Later they went to the source.)

    All music that is uniquely American comes from either Jews in New York or a couple of dozen high-IQ mixed breed blacks in fin-de siecle New Orleans, 1920s New York or 1970s NY and California.

    Other than that, you have Anglo-Saxon and Celtic folk songs, classical music, the British music hall and a smattering of Scandinavian and Eastern European musics. If there is anything else I don't know what it is, and I studied musicology and music education in college and played in country, folk, rock, and church groups for almost forty years.

    Chuck Berry is a far bigger swine than Frank Sinatra could have ever thought of being. Here is a man who bought a restaurant and put TV cameras over the stalls in the women’s bathrooms to film them, and who-I’ve seen it, Al Goldstein sold the tape which also had the Rob Lowe and Go-Go’s footage-filmed himself doing degrading and scatological acts with white young groupies. He was in jail several times and as Keith Richards alludes to in the documentary, he escaped many times for every time he was caught.

    From Wikipedia:

    Born into a middle-class African-American family in St. Louis, Missouri, Berry had an interest in music from an early age and gave his first public performance at Sumner High School. While still a high school student he was arrested, and served a prison sentence for armed robbery from 1944 to 1947.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Berry

    That said, he is a musical genius of sorts, even though he didn’t actually write the music itself to any of the big 50s hits he had. The lyrics were his, the guitar playing (which was actually a lot more elegant than it at first appears, especially on his Chess recordings) was his, and the showmanship was his. The actual melodies themselves were from a black piano player named Johnnie Johnston, as Keith Richards seems to almost realize live on camera in the movie. (The movie, Hail! Hail! Rock ‘n’ Roll, is probably the best of its genre ever and well worth watching to any Beatles, Stones, Beach Boys, or rockabilly, punk, new wave or roots music fan.)

    Of course, being black meant that he had to “put up with” a lot of ‘racist’ stuff in his heyday, (those laws not seeming quite as crazy now as they did to me in my racially ignorant days) but was protected from the full wrath of the law many times over in his later life of debauchery. Berry, far more than Sinatra, presents us with a real “Gauguin problem”.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Chuck was too cheap to pay for a band to tour with him according to a musician I was standing in line with in 1980.

    He said he'd played with Chuck Berry. When I said I was impressed, he said don't be, half the bass guitarists in the country have played with Chuck. His band got $25 from Chuck.

  180. @Steve Sailer
    I was driving through Oceanside next to the giant Marine base at Camp Pendleton a few years ago and a theater advertised three local hard rock bands for $5.

    Be interesting to know if they had to “buy the hall”-i.e., guarantee the ticket sales either by agreeing to pay the difference or actually paying the venue and selling tickets or door admission themselves. That became the mode on the Sunset Strip in the eighties after Randy Rhoads’ brother, Kelle, made such an offer to a venue and it quickly became pervasive: LA punk rockers were famously waging a “stop pay to play” campaign in the early 90s.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I'm trying to remember what the drinking age was in California when I'd go to the Whiskey on Sunset when I was 19. It must have been 18 back then because I don't remember any hassles about getting in, although I usually drove so I didn't drink. Or maybe it was 21 and you had to get your hand stamped or something to drink?

    It was 18 in Texas in the 1970s, or whatever age you were when you showed up at the Rice Pub.

    , @Steve Sailer
    Anyway, in the 1970s you could definitely scratch together enough kids to turn on the lights of the Whiskey and pay the band. Of course, that was the Baby Boom.
  181. @Former Darfur
    Be interesting to know if they had to "buy the hall"-i.e., guarantee the ticket sales either by agreeing to pay the difference or actually paying the venue and selling tickets or door admission themselves. That became the mode on the Sunset Strip in the eighties after Randy Rhoads' brother, Kelle, made such an offer to a venue and it quickly became pervasive: LA punk rockers were famously waging a "stop pay to play" campaign in the early 90s.

    I’m trying to remember what the drinking age was in California when I’d go to the Whiskey on Sunset when I was 19. It must have been 18 back then because I don’t remember any hassles about getting in, although I usually drove so I didn’t drink. Or maybe it was 21 and you had to get your hand stamped or something to drink?

    It was 18 in Texas in the 1970s, or whatever age you were when you showed up at the Rice Pub.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    John Mayall wrote in 1968 (he was living in Laurel Canyon at the time - his house (and extensive pornography collection) was destroyed in a 1979 fire)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLzYBTIDYO0


    "Watching all the people like the waves along the shore
    They hang around the Whiskey and every open store

    I'm walking on Sunset
    And I'll never reach the end
    I'm walking on Sunset
    Everything is like a friend

    All the pretty women, never seen a better crop
    Music all around, the flashing lights will never stop

    Standing at the corner watching every kind of car
    Friendly people come and say they wanna see your star

    The cops were in their cars but they never bothered me
    A new magic world - I never felt so free "
     

  182. @Former Darfur
    Be interesting to know if they had to "buy the hall"-i.e., guarantee the ticket sales either by agreeing to pay the difference or actually paying the venue and selling tickets or door admission themselves. That became the mode on the Sunset Strip in the eighties after Randy Rhoads' brother, Kelle, made such an offer to a venue and it quickly became pervasive: LA punk rockers were famously waging a "stop pay to play" campaign in the early 90s.

    Anyway, in the 1970s you could definitely scratch together enough kids to turn on the lights of the Whiskey and pay the band. Of course, that was the Baby Boom.

  183. @Former Darfur
    Chuck Berry is a far bigger swine than Frank Sinatra could have ever thought of being. Here is a man who bought a restaurant and put TV cameras over the stalls in the women's bathrooms to film them, and who-I've seen it, Al Goldstein sold the tape which also had the Rob Lowe and Go-Go's footage-filmed himself doing degrading and scatological acts with white young groupies. He was in jail several times and as Keith Richards alludes to in the documentary, he escaped many times for every time he was caught.

    From Wikipedia:


    Born into a middle-class African-American family in St. Louis, Missouri, Berry had an interest in music from an early age and gave his first public performance at Sumner High School. While still a high school student he was arrested, and served a prison sentence for armed robbery from 1944 to 1947.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Berry

    That said, he is a musical genius of sorts, even though he didn't actually write the music itself to any of the big 50s hits he had. The lyrics were his, the guitar playing (which was actually a lot more elegant than it at first appears, especially on his Chess recordings) was his, and the showmanship was his. The actual melodies themselves were from a black piano player named Johnnie Johnston, as Keith Richards seems to almost realize live on camera in the movie. (The movie, Hail! Hail! Rock 'n' Roll, is probably the best of its genre ever and well worth watching to any Beatles, Stones, Beach Boys, or rockabilly, punk, new wave or roots music fan.)

    Of course, being black meant that he had to "put up with" a lot of 'racist' stuff in his heyday, (those laws not seeming quite as crazy now as they did to me in my racially ignorant days) but was protected from the full wrath of the law many times over in his later life of debauchery. Berry, far more than Sinatra, presents us with a real "Gauguin problem".

    Chuck was too cheap to pay for a band to tour with him according to a musician I was standing in line with in 1980.

    He said he’d played with Chuck Berry. When I said I was impressed, he said don’t be, half the bass guitarists in the country have played with Chuck. His band got $25 from Chuck.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Yeah, they talk about this in the movie. Chuck's MO, for decades, was and is to get on a plane with his guitar and show up. The promoter agrees to furnish the band, "professional AFofM musicians conversant with Mr. Berry's music", the kind of amplifier Chuck prefers (I think it was a Fender Twin or Twin Reverb, most of which are crummy, as the movie also riffs on) and so forth and to pick Chuck up, on time, at the airport-in a Cadillac. It has to be a Cadillac, even in places like Switzerland, and even if it's snowing and only 4WD vehicles are safe.

    This led to Chuck being backed up by, among others, The Steve Miller Band, and on one occasion I think the Grateful Dead. Usually it was a bunch of casuals musicians and they were obviously contemptuous of Berry's music.
  184. @Steve Sailer
    Chuck was too cheap to pay for a band to tour with him according to a musician I was standing in line with in 1980.

    He said he'd played with Chuck Berry. When I said I was impressed, he said don't be, half the bass guitarists in the country have played with Chuck. His band got $25 from Chuck.

    Yeah, they talk about this in the movie. Chuck’s MO, for decades, was and is to get on a plane with his guitar and show up. The promoter agrees to furnish the band, “professional AFofM musicians conversant with Mr. Berry’s music”, the kind of amplifier Chuck prefers (I think it was a Fender Twin or Twin Reverb, most of which are crummy, as the movie also riffs on) and so forth and to pick Chuck up, on time, at the airport-in a Cadillac. It has to be a Cadillac, even in places like Switzerland, and even if it’s snowing and only 4WD vehicles are safe.

    This led to Chuck being backed up by, among others, The Steve Miller Band, and on one occasion I think the Grateful Dead. Usually it was a bunch of casuals musicians and they were obviously contemptuous of Berry’s music.

  185. @Steve Sailer
    I'm trying to remember what the drinking age was in California when I'd go to the Whiskey on Sunset when I was 19. It must have been 18 back then because I don't remember any hassles about getting in, although I usually drove so I didn't drink. Or maybe it was 21 and you had to get your hand stamped or something to drink?

    It was 18 in Texas in the 1970s, or whatever age you were when you showed up at the Rice Pub.

    John Mayall wrote in 1968 (he was living in Laurel Canyon at the time – his house (and extensive pornography collection) was destroyed in a 1979 fire)

    “Watching all the people like the waves along the shore
    They hang around the Whiskey and every open store

    I’m walking on Sunset
    And I’ll never reach the end
    I’m walking on Sunset
    Everything is like a friend

    All the pretty women, never seen a better crop
    Music all around, the flashing lights will never stop

    Standing at the corner watching every kind of car
    Friendly people come and say they wanna see your star

    The cops were in their cars but they never bothered me
    A new magic world – I never felt so free “

    • Replies: @D. K.
    ***

    Well, I hear that Laurel Canyon
    is full of famous stars,
    But I hate them worse than lepers
    and I'll kill them in their cars.

    ***

    http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/neilyoung/revolutionblues.html
  186. @Anonymous Nephew
    John Mayall wrote in 1968 (he was living in Laurel Canyon at the time - his house (and extensive pornography collection) was destroyed in a 1979 fire)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLzYBTIDYO0


    "Watching all the people like the waves along the shore
    They hang around the Whiskey and every open store

    I'm walking on Sunset
    And I'll never reach the end
    I'm walking on Sunset
    Everything is like a friend

    All the pretty women, never seen a better crop
    Music all around, the flashing lights will never stop

    Standing at the corner watching every kind of car
    Friendly people come and say they wanna see your star

    The cops were in their cars but they never bothered me
    A new magic world - I never felt so free "
     

    ***

    Well, I hear that Laurel Canyon
    is full of famous stars,
    But I hate them worse than lepers
    and I’ll kill them in their cars.

    ***

    http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/neilyoung/revolutionblues.html

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    I thought Neil Young and Joni got on pretty well. He'd have wiped out half her friends ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51m5UnZcWYc

    "Trina takes her paints and threads
    And weaves a pattern all her own
    Annie bakes her cakes and breads
    And gathers flowers for her home
    For her home she gathers flowers
    And Estrella dear companion
    Colors up the sunshine hours
    Pouring music down the canyon
    Coloring the sunshine hours
    They are the ladies of the canyon"
  187. @Jonathan Mason
    Got You Under My Skin is a great Cole Porter classic and a jazz standard, but the question always remains in my mind when I hear it as to whether the song was really originally a sneaky ode to heroin.

    I'd tried so not to give in
    I said to myself this affair never will go so well
    But why should I try to resist when baby, I know so well
    I've got you under my skin
    I'd sacrifice anything come what might for the sake of having you near
    In spite of a warning voice that comes in the night and repeats
    Repeats in my ear
    Don't you know little fool
    You never can win

     

    ***

    I get no kick from champagne
    Mere alcohol
    Doesn’t thrill me at all
    So, tell me, why should it be true
    That I get a kick out of you

    Some get a kick from cocaine
    I’m sure that if
    I took even one sniff
    It would bore me terrifically too
    Yet I get a kick out of you

    ***

    http://www.lyricsfreak.com/f/frank+sinatra/i+get+a+kick+out+of+you_20055132.html

  188. @Steve Sailer
    Beatles albums frequently left off singles from the album recording session that were rushed out on 45s. The White Album is pretty thin, for example, but if it included Hey Jude and Revolution it would be a lot better.

    Their 1970 "Hey Jude" album of singles that (mostly) weren't on albums is pretty amazing:

    No. Title Length
    1. "Can't Buy Me Love" 2:19
    2. "I Should Have Known Better" 2:39
    3. "Paperback Writer" 2:14
    4. "Rain" 2:58
    5. "Lady Madonna" 2:14
    6. "Revolution" 3:21
    7. "Hey Jude" 7:06
    8. "Old Brown Shoe" 3:16
    9. "Don't Let Me Down" 3:30
    10. "The Ballad of John and Yoko" 2:55

    Prior to the Beatles’ forming Apple Corps Ltd., in January 1968, Capitol Records published (most of) their American albums. Capitol famously cut songs off of British versions of Beatles albums, and later collected the excised songs in albums, much as Capitol previously had published Sinatra albums composed of previously released singles, and some previously unreleased album tracks, every couple of years. The infamous “butcher cover” of the Beatles’ “Yesterday and Today” album, in 1966, which was quickly recalled, and is now a collector’s item, was thought by many people to be a resentful statement by the group about the way that Capitol had treated their work, even though the Beatles claimed, instead, that it was a political statement against the Vietnam War!?!

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    We're talking about two different things. British pop albums traditionally had 14 cuts, but British pop albums also usually did not include on albums the songs that had been big hits on 45's, since it was felt to be double dipping the consumer. This was the opposite of American practice, which just assumed that the album would contain "everything" including the recent big hit, so in that sense buying an album for $3-$4 allowed you to save .50-.75 on the single that you did not buy.

    So, with the Beatles the first problem was that 2-3 songs were cut off each album, second, that the singles were not appearing on albums.

    This actually was a problem with the very first US Beatles album, "Meet the Beatles" because everyone expected it to have "Hold Your Hand", which was the driving single, but it wasn't on the British album, "With the Beatles." As a result several songs were cut and then reissued (with some singles) on "The Second Album." The same thing happened with "Something New" (which had some leftovers on it), "Beatles '65" and "Beatles VI" (which were essentially Xmas 1964 album, "Beatles for Sale" with various singles added), the US version of "Help!" which included only 7 songs from the British album, and then finally "Rubber Soul" which also cut from the original and added leftovers.

    For "Revolver" they again cut three, and then (IIRC) a few weeks before issued "Yesterday and Today" which is actually a compilation of songs from albums ranging from "Help!" up through "Revolver" with a few singles thrown in ("Day Tripper" being the most famous.) The album iSteve referenced,"Hey Jude" was entirely made up of singles that had never been memorialized on an album.

    The Beatles demanded a change in the practice even before Sgt Pepper beginning June, 1967. This was because that album was engineered such that breaks were not really feasible. The "Butcher Baby" cover pictures were in the context of a number of weird shoots, I actually don't think there was much of a message at all, but, popularly, it was believed to be about Vietnam at the time (general anti-war sentiment.) The idea that it was a reaction to cutting up albums came a bit later.
  189. @Anon
    "I think you’re off by a year; Revolver was released in 1966, and for me (and lots of others, including a lot of music critics) that is their high water mark. Although Abbey Road almost gets there. "

    No, nein, nyet, ie.

    I've heard that stuff so many times, but it's from people who don't really get the Beatles.
    Maybe one can argue that the songs complement each other the best(than in other Beatles albums), and it's their closest to something like a 'concept album'.
    SGT PEPPER's concept is a bit too rich and starchy.

    Revolver is a great album, sort of. Lots of fine songs and etc, but how anyone can say it's their best is beyond me.

    For some reason, like the stark b/w cover, the sound is like an aural equivalent of b/w. The richness isn't there. Though stereo, it sounds mono. It sounds like it's been recorded through a telephone.

    And then, take the songs. Mostly fine, but there isn't a single great track except for maybe ELEANOR RIGBY, which is a bit artsy and poetsy.

    Among the rest, FOR NO ONE and I'M ONLY SLEEPING are exceptional, but the former is no match to YESTERDAY and the latter is no NORWEGIAN WOOD and only anticipates STRAWBERRY FIELDS FOREVER.
    SHE SAID, SHE SAID is also exceptional but rather strained with avant-garde touches and proto-psychedelia.

    Other top-notch songs are AND YOUR BIRD CAN SING and GOT TO GET YOU INTO MY LIFE, but both are bit simple, and the latter ends badly. Also, for a Motown-inspired song, GOT TO GET lacks groove and bounce.

    YELLOW SUBMARINE is a good children's song(though supposedly about drugs). Come to think of it, LUCY IN THE SKY in SGT PEPPER is also essentially a druggy children's song. Why were they making children's music?

    TOMORROW NEVER KNOWS is Lennon at its pompous almost-worst. It's overloaded with mumbo jumbo from the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It now sounds dated and ridiculous. Lennon was trying so hard to be weird, spiritual, profound, surreal, and etc. It's the Moody Blues way, like NIGHTS IN WHITE SATIN. And it got more ridiculous later with I'M THE WALRUS, which is really nothing more than a Dr. Seuss song. WALRUS is musically sort of amazing, but it's gimmicks and nonsense lyrics that really amount to nothing.
    Now, Dylan could enter the Strange Zone without such cheap tricks. He could plunge the depths while Lennon just splashed around with dyed water.
    Lennon was fantastically talented pop star, and he could be poetic and artistic with personal musings like NORWEGIAN WOOD. But he was deadly when he got 'profound', and TOMORROW NEVER KNOWS blows.

    As for ABBEY ROAD, it's one hell of an album with good tunes and dazzling orchestration on the second side, but it's all too slick and slight. SOMETHING by Harrison is probably its only great song. COME TOGETHER could have been powerful with a raw raggedy production, but it's too neat for its own good.

    Now, let me set you straight.

    If you're gonna pick the Beatles best album, it has to be

    WITH THE BEATLES, HELP, or RUBBER SOUL.

    WITH THE BEATLES(or US version MEET THE BEATLES with 'I wanna hold your hand' missing in WITH) may now sound elementary, but it features the essential Beatles sound that made them a phenom in the first place. It's a sound like no other. It still sounds fresh and new whenever it is played. And it's simply real, unlike punk rock that came later and tried so hard to 'go back to the real'. There is no idea or gimmick behind it. Lennon and McCartney, after so much practice and passion, finally stumbled on their gold. The slot machine of their creativity hit the jackpot. The music just tumbles out and explodes everywhere.

    But some might say WITH THE BEATLES is a bit one-dimensional since it's all about thrills and not much else. Beatles hadn't expanded their musical vocabulary yet. Okay, fair enough, but it is powerful stuff.

    And then you got HELP! It is surely the Beatles album with the most number of great songs: Help, Ticket to Ride, and Yesterday. All three are pure gold. Ticket to Ride may be their best song, Help is brilliant, and Yesterday, as we know, is an all-time classic.
    Three mega-songs on one album. That is truly remarkable.
    And it also a bunch of wonderful songs like You're Gonna Lose that Girl, Night Before, Another Girl, I Need You, You've Got to Hide Your Love Away, It's Only Shove, I've Just Seen a Face.
    So, one could easily choose HELP as their best.
    But what are the strikes against it.
    Some might say that it's more like a collection of singles than a comprehensive album united by a theme. One might also say that it's a transitional work caught somewhere between early style and more mature style. It's with RUBBER SOUL that the Beatles really completed the transition.
    And it's true enough that HELP isn't as unified or consistent in sound or theme than RUBBER or REVOLVER.
    But as I grow older, I care more about good songs than some concept or whatever. And HELP, with its titanic three songs and some very good ones, could be chosen as their best.

    And then you got RUBBER SOUL.
    I loved this album in high school. I mean the US version, which sounds more organic than the British version, but the latter has more songs. Drive My Car is a good song and Nowhere Man is special, but they are stylistically and thematically at odds with the rest. The US version actually gained something by including I've Just Seen a Face and It's Only Love(from the British HELP).

    I still think it's a great album, but let's face it. It has only one truly great song: NORWEGIAN WOOD. It has two excellent ones in NOWHERE MAN and YOU WON'T SEE ME. And IN MY LIFE is a nice beautiful song. Others are pretty good but nothing really special. I think RUBBER SOUL got a lot of mileage because it was one of the first of its kind: an intelligent and 'mature' rock album. Critics and fans alike were amazed that the Fab Four showed this other side of them, the ability to grow and change. This was something Dave Clark Five lacked and so they faded; they were stuck in their original sound forever.

    But in retrospect, except for NORWEGIAN WOOD and NOWHERE MAN(wonderful but essentially a children's song), RUBBER SOUL is sounding more and more thin as time goes by. Do I wanna listen to Michelle, Run for Your Life, Wait, The Word, etc?
    Okay, GIRL is nice, but then it has bouzouki and I can't resist that.

    It's good stuff but something you outgrow.

    One might mention the White Album, and if it were reduced to a single album, it could be in the competition. But there's too much junk there.

    As an erstwhile Beatlemaniac– who got an A+ on his English 101 term paper, over forty years ago, on the rise of Beatlemania in America– my favorite (original) Beatles album is “Tutti per Uno”– the Italian version of “A Hard Day’s Night” that I bought in Rome, barely six months after my scoring a 98% on that aforementioned term paper, during my first semester of college!

    http://www.discogs.com/Beatles-Tutti-Per-Uno-A-Hard-Days-Night/release/3382095

  190. Capitol famously cut songs off of British versions of Beatles albums,

    Actually, it was common practice in the US for albums to carry 11 or 12 tracks, while in the UK the custom was 14. This had never been an issue before the Beatles, because other than the odd single , we weren’t importing British music. (We had enough Brits in Hollywood already!)

    After 1968, it ceased to be an issue again, as songs (or “cuts”) often broke the three-minute barrier which made those numbers relevant. Iron Butterfly’s monster hit (can never remember the punctuation!) took up a whole side in both countries.

    By the way, I just saw a newspaper ad for an upcoming Butterfly concert in February.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    Iron Butterfly's 18 minute "Inna Gadda da Vida" and no one could dance through the whole thing. Incidentally it's understood that the title is a drunken slurred version of "In the Garden of Eden", but nobody had a clue in 1966.
    , @D. K.
    The point is, there was no technical issue, in the mid-1960s, with releasing the same albums in the United States as were being released in Great Britain, on EMI's Parlophone label. Capitol Records was just greedy!

    I have the imported British version of Sinatra's "The Capitol Years" collection, which covers April 1953- July 1962-- before Pete Best even was fired and replaced with Ringo. These British CDs are not augmented with bonus tracks, as the American CD releases were. Some of Sinatra's albums, after the switch from 10' LPs to 12' LPs, had 16 tracks. "In the Wee Small Hours" (1955) does, for instance, and it runs 50:34, according to my CD player-- while "Sinatra's Swingin' Session!!!" (1961), with only 12 tracks, runs only 26:24!

    According to the playing times listed at Wikipedia.org, none of the Beatles' Parlophone LPs reached a playing time of 40 minutes. The two that came within seconds of doing so were "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" (1967)-- which was the first U.S. release to match the British release-- and "A Collection of Beatles Oldies" (1966)-- which I literally had never even heard of, until I just saw it listed, a few minutes ago, on Wikipedia.org, in its Beatles chronology!?! Of the Beatles albums that Capitol Records saw fit to fiddle with, the longest running time, for the full Parlophone version, was a meager 35:50, for "Rubber Soul" (1965), with 14 tracks instead of the American version's 12. As we used to say in law school: "res ipsa loquitur."

    By the way, also per Wikipedia.org:

    ***

    Frank Sinatra had recently become a father when he recorded "Soliloquy" for the first time on May 28, 1946. With the time limitation of about 3:30 on a 10" 78-rpm record his 7:57 long recording was released on Columbia's Masterwork label (the classical division) as two sides of a 12" record.

    ***

    The Beatles could have used a friend in "The House that 'Nat' Built" like the one that Frankie had had in Manie Sacks, during Sinatra's Columbia years (1943-1952):

    http://pennsylvaniamilitarycollege.org/maine-sacks-pied-piper-stars/

    http://www.thehousethatnatbuilt.com/natkingcole/
  191. Mark Steyn, with his encyclopedic knowledge of mid-Century songwriters…

    Every time I read one of his pieces, I always think, “Yeah, but does he know…” And by the end, he always shows me he does!

    The only person I envy more than Steyn is Michael Feinstein, who knows as much, and got to know and work with several of the surviving golden-age songwriters.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    What about Jonathan Schwartz (the elder son of composer Arthur Schwartz, the songwriting partner of lyricist, and MGM executive, Howard Dietz)?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Schwartz_(radio)

    There is also Will Friedwald:

    ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Friedwald
  192. @anon
    I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND is still fresh, explosive, and totally remarkable.

    Remarkable? Are you joking?

    "Elenore" by The Turtles is a better song, and it was making fun of songs like that.

    But, to each his own, I guess. I have no problem with people liking The Beatles. Just pointing out the fact that nobody under the age of thirty is going to think of it as "explosive" or "fresh".

    “Elenore” is a great pop record! As I recall, from the liner notes of a Turtles anthology that I bought, forty or more years ago, they locked themselves in a room and wrote it, very quickly, after their record company had told them that “Grim Reaper of Love” was not the label’s idea of a potential hit!?! They said that they put as many cliches into it as they could think of– but the lyric is pretty much beside the point, is it not?!?

    http://www.discogs.com/Turtles-Happy-Together-Again-The-Turtles-Greatest-Hits/release/1439105

  193. @Reg Cæsar

    Mark Steyn, with his encyclopedic knowledge of mid-Century songwriters…
     
    Every time I read one of his pieces, I always think, "Yeah, but does he know…" And by the end, he always shows me he does!

    The only person I envy more than Steyn is Michael Feinstein, who knows as much, and got to know and work with several of the surviving golden-age songwriters.

    What about Jonathan Schwartz (the elder son of composer Arthur Schwartz, the songwriting partner of lyricist, and MGM executive, Howard Dietz)?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Schwartz_(radio)

    There is also Will Friedwald:

    ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Friedwald

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    I have Friedland's Stardust Memories, and the video of Schwartz père at his YMHA talk.

    Revealing anecdote from the latter: Schwartz and Dietz used to mock a certain lyricist with lower standards than theirs with the "rhyming" couplet

    Lord, please save us
    from Benny Davis!


    Would anybody younger than Steve even get the joke?
  194. @D. K.
    Prior to the Beatles' forming Apple Corps Ltd., in January 1968, Capitol Records published (most of) their American albums. Capitol famously cut songs off of British versions of Beatles albums, and later collected the excised songs in albums, much as Capitol previously had published Sinatra albums composed of previously released singles, and some previously unreleased album tracks, every couple of years. The infamous "butcher cover" of the Beatles' "Yesterday and Today" album, in 1966, which was quickly recalled, and is now a collector's item, was thought by many people to be a resentful statement by the group about the way that Capitol had treated their work, even though the Beatles claimed, instead, that it was a political statement against the Vietnam War!?!

    We’re talking about two different things. British pop albums traditionally had 14 cuts, but British pop albums also usually did not include on albums the songs that had been big hits on 45’s, since it was felt to be double dipping the consumer. This was the opposite of American practice, which just assumed that the album would contain “everything” including the recent big hit, so in that sense buying an album for $3-$4 allowed you to save .50-.75 on the single that you did not buy.

    So, with the Beatles the first problem was that 2-3 songs were cut off each album, second, that the singles were not appearing on albums.

    This actually was a problem with the very first US Beatles album, “Meet the Beatles” because everyone expected it to have “Hold Your Hand”, which was the driving single, but it wasn’t on the British album, “With the Beatles.” As a result several songs were cut and then reissued (with some singles) on “The Second Album.” The same thing happened with “Something New” (which had some leftovers on it), “Beatles ’65” and “Beatles VI” (which were essentially Xmas 1964 album, “Beatles for Sale” with various singles added), the US version of “Help!” which included only 7 songs from the British album, and then finally “Rubber Soul” which also cut from the original and added leftovers.

    For “Revolver” they again cut three, and then (IIRC) a few weeks before issued “Yesterday and Today” which is actually a compilation of songs from albums ranging from “Help!” up through “Revolver” with a few singles thrown in (“Day Tripper” being the most famous.) The album iSteve referenced,”Hey Jude” was entirely made up of singles that had never been memorialized on an album.

    The Beatles demanded a change in the practice even before Sgt Pepper beginning June, 1967. This was because that album was engineered such that breaks were not really feasible. The “Butcher Baby” cover pictures were in the context of a number of weird shoots, I actually don’t think there was much of a message at all, but, popularly, it was believed to be about Vietnam at the time (general anti-war sentiment.) The idea that it was a reaction to cutting up albums came a bit later.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    Capitol Records actually came late to the party, because it had declined the option to distribute the Beatles' records in America-- until Beatlemania washed over the New World, a few months after it had manifested itself in the Old. That is why "Introducing . . . The Beatles" (1964), which was basically an American version of the Beatles' debut album in Britain, "Please Please Me" (1963), was released on Vee-Jay Records (which had been founded by a married couple, in 1953, in my future birthplace of Gary, before it moved on up to Chicago), ten days before "Meet the Beatles!" was released on Capitol. I think that my sister bought the "She Loves You" 45 (which I still should have, in storage, with the rest of my vinyl collection) on the Swan label, early in 1964, for the same reason!?! The "Please Please Me" 45 also was first released in America on Vee-Jay, and first played by Chicago legend Dick Biondi, on WLS:

    ***

    Capitol Records, EMI's United States label, was offered the right to release "Please Please Me" in the US, but turned it down.[24] Instead, it was placed with Transglobal, an EMI affiliate that worked to place foreign masters with US record labels.[24] It was told to find an American outlet for the record as quickly as possible, in order to appease Martin and Beatles manager Brian Epstein.[24] "Please Please Me" was then offered to Atlantic, which also rejected it.[24] Finally, Vee-Jay, which had released the top-five hit "I Remember You" by Frank Ifield in 1962 (another record that Capitol had turned down), was offered the right to issue "Please Please Me" in the States, and chose to do so.[24] The exact date of the US issue was lost for decades, but research published in 2004 showed that the single, "Please Please Me"/"Ask Me Why", was released by Vee-Jay on 7 February 1963,[25] coincidentally exactly one year before the Beatles' plane landed in New York on their first visit as a band to America.

    Dick Biondi, a disc jockey on WLS in Chicago and a friend of Vee-Jay executive Ewart Abner, played the song on the radio from February 1963, perhaps as early as 8 February 1963, thus becoming the first DJ to play a Beatles record in the United States.[26] Art Roberts, legendary DJ and music director at the time, tells how the record came to be played first at the station:

    "Let me tell you the story of 'Please Please Me'. The record was released on the Vee-Jay label. It was a local Chicago recording company. The owner, Ewart Abner, brought a copy of the record to WLS. I was the music director at the time and listened to his story about a group, and looked at pictures in teen magazines he brought back from England. I figured, what if this group would get as popular in the United States as they were in England and Europe. So I added the record to the list."

    On WLS "Please Please Me" peaked at number 35 on 15 March on the second of its two weeks on the "Silver Dollar Survey", in addition to its two airplay weeks.[26][27] However, the song did not chart on any other major national American survey until 1964.

    The first pressings of the Vee-Jay single, which was assigned the catalog number 498, featured a typographical error: the band's name was spelled "The Beattles" with two "t"s.[28][29] WLS used this spelling on its Silver Dollar Surveys in 1963. Later copies of the single corrected this.[30] Also, the composers on the Vee-Jay edition were credited on both sides as "J. Lennon-P. McCartney", unlike on the UK Parlophone edition (which listed the names in the reverse order). However, with the exception of Chicago, the record was a flop as it sold approximately 7,310 copies.[29] Today, copies of Vee-Jay 498—whether with the incorrect or correct spelling of the Beatles on the label—are valuable collector's items.

    ***

    For all I know, I and/or some of my siblings might well have been among that first radio audience ever to hear the Beatles on the American airwaves-- unless Dick Biondi played it after we all had nodded off, that Friday night, in February 1963!?! WLS was our top rock station; Biondi had the 9 p.m. to midnight shift (until he left the station, later that same year, as the result of a dispute):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Biondi

    Anyway, the normal practice for pop groups, prior to the Beatles, was to release singles, until they scored an appreciable hit, and then to make an album with the hit(s) on it, often filling it with covers of other peoples' hits. Someone like Sinatra, on the other hand, recorded albums as distinct works, while also releasing singles, which would later be collected onto albums, along with tracks that had not made it onto the albums for which they were originally recorded. The Capitol Records practice of cutting the early Beatles albums down from 14 to 12 tracks, vis-a-vis the Parlophone versions, was not simply a matter of excising their hit singles, so that fans would not be buying them twice-- nor dissuaded from buying the singles. For instance, for "Rubber Soul" (1965):

    ***

    The American edition differed markedly from its British counterpart. Four tracks were removed and set aside for the next American album, Yesterday and Today: "Drive My Car", "Nowhere Man", "What Goes On" and "If I Needed Someone". These were replaced with two tracks from the UK Help! album: "I've Just Seen a Face" and "It's Only Love". The total time was 28:55, nearly 7 minutes shorter than the British version. Through peculiarities of sequencing, by placing the Help! tracks at the beginning of each side, Rubber Soul was deliberately reconfigured to appear a "folk rock" album to angle the Beatles into that emergent lucrative American genre during 1965.[50]

    ***

    "Nowhere Man" was the only hit from among those several tracks, backed by "What Goes On" (1966), with the others not released as singles at all. Instead of being included on "Rubber Soul" (1965), they were released as a single, in February 1966, and then on "Yesterday and Today" (1966), a few months later. So, they were not cut from "Rubber Soul" because they already had been made available as singles, and they were later included on "Yesterday and Today" even though they had recently been on a hit 45. The importance of "Rubber Soul"-- from which those four songs had been excised, from its American version, with two others added-- was duly noted by another seminal figure in rock music:

    ***

    The US version of the album greatly influenced Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys. Wilson believed it was the first time in pop music that the focus had shifted from just making popular singles to making an actual album, without the usual filler tracks. He "answered" the album by releasing Pet Sounds in 1966.[44]

    ***

    Frank Sinatra, of course, had been doing that since the mid-1950s, on the Beatles' future label, Capitol Records. As I mentioned in a previous comment, those Sinatra albums had included as many as 16 tracks, from the mid-1950s, and occasionally exceeded 50 minutes in playing time.
  195. @Reg Cæsar

    Capitol famously cut songs off of British versions of Beatles albums,
     
    Actually, it was common practice in the US for albums to carry 11 or 12 tracks, while in the UK the custom was 14. This had never been an issue before the Beatles, because other than the odd single , we weren't importing British music. (We had enough Brits in Hollywood already!)

    After 1968, it ceased to be an issue again, as songs (or "cuts") often broke the three-minute barrier which made those numbers relevant. Iron Butterfly's monster hit (can never remember the punctuation!) took up a whole side in both countries.

    By the way, I just saw a newspaper ad for an upcoming Butterfly concert in February.

    Iron Butterfly’s 18 minute “Inna Gadda da Vida” and no one could dance through the whole thing. Incidentally it’s understood that the title is a drunken slurred version of “In the Garden of Eden”, but nobody had a clue in 1966.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    I knew that when I saw them at the Fillmore East in 1968. It was the first time I saw flame pots on the stage; they came on during the guitar solo. IIRC, Blue Cheer opened for them - the loudest band I ever heard.
  196. @Harold
    Well, I’m disappointed, I had hoped at least on person would tell me that the song I posted had the worst singing they had ever heard. I like the song and the singing, but I had deliberately chosen it for it’s trolling value. No one took the bait (for once). Of course it is quite possible that no one even listened to it.

    Just for purposes of self-actualization, I have listened to that abysmal recording and, in reference to someone else’s post, “you have my gratitude.” It was, by the way, awful.

    • Replies: @Harold
    Thank you!

    It was, by the way, awful.
     
    What!?! Maybe you just have bad taste. :-)
  197. @Reg Cæsar

    Capitol famously cut songs off of British versions of Beatles albums,
     
    Actually, it was common practice in the US for albums to carry 11 or 12 tracks, while in the UK the custom was 14. This had never been an issue before the Beatles, because other than the odd single , we weren't importing British music. (We had enough Brits in Hollywood already!)

    After 1968, it ceased to be an issue again, as songs (or "cuts") often broke the three-minute barrier which made those numbers relevant. Iron Butterfly's monster hit (can never remember the punctuation!) took up a whole side in both countries.

    By the way, I just saw a newspaper ad for an upcoming Butterfly concert in February.

    The point is, there was no technical issue, in the mid-1960s, with releasing the same albums in the United States as were being released in Great Britain, on EMI’s Parlophone label. Capitol Records was just greedy!

    I have the imported British version of Sinatra’s “The Capitol Years” collection, which covers April 1953- July 1962– before Pete Best even was fired and replaced with Ringo. These British CDs are not augmented with bonus tracks, as the American CD releases were. Some of Sinatra’s albums, after the switch from 10′ LPs to 12′ LPs, had 16 tracks. “In the Wee Small Hours” (1955) does, for instance, and it runs 50:34, according to my CD player– while “Sinatra’s Swingin’ Session!!!” (1961), with only 12 tracks, runs only 26:24!

    According to the playing times listed at Wikipedia.org, none of the Beatles’ Parlophone LPs reached a playing time of 40 minutes. The two that came within seconds of doing so were “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band” (1967)– which was the first U.S. release to match the British release– and “A Collection of Beatles Oldies” (1966)– which I literally had never even heard of, until I just saw it listed, a few minutes ago, on Wikipedia.org, in its Beatles chronology!?! Of the Beatles albums that Capitol Records saw fit to fiddle with, the longest running time, for the full Parlophone version, was a meager 35:50, for “Rubber Soul” (1965), with 14 tracks instead of the American version’s 12. As we used to say in law school: “res ipsa loquitur.”

    By the way, also per Wikipedia.org:

    ***

    Frank Sinatra had recently become a father when he recorded “Soliloquy” for the first time on May 28, 1946. With the time limitation of about 3:30 on a 10″ 78-rpm record his 7:57 long recording was released on Columbia’s Masterwork label (the classical division) as two sides of a 12″ record.

    ***

    The Beatles could have used a friend in “The House that ‘Nat’ Built” like the one that Frankie had had in Manie Sacks, during Sinatra’s Columbia years (1943-1952):

    http://pennsylvaniamilitarycollege.org/maine-sacks-pied-piper-stars/

    http://www.thehousethatnatbuilt.com/natkingcole/

  198. @D. K.
    ***

    Well, I hear that Laurel Canyon
    is full of famous stars,
    But I hate them worse than lepers
    and I'll kill them in their cars.

    ***

    http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/neilyoung/revolutionblues.html

    I thought Neil Young and Joni got on pretty well. He’d have wiped out half her friends …

    “Trina takes her paints and threads
    And weaves a pattern all her own
    Annie bakes her cakes and breads
    And gathers flowers for her home
    For her home she gathers flowers
    And Estrella dear companion
    Colors up the sunshine hours
    Pouring music down the canyon
    Coloring the sunshine hours
    They are the ladies of the canyon”

  199. @SPMoore8
    We're talking about two different things. British pop albums traditionally had 14 cuts, but British pop albums also usually did not include on albums the songs that had been big hits on 45's, since it was felt to be double dipping the consumer. This was the opposite of American practice, which just assumed that the album would contain "everything" including the recent big hit, so in that sense buying an album for $3-$4 allowed you to save .50-.75 on the single that you did not buy.

    So, with the Beatles the first problem was that 2-3 songs were cut off each album, second, that the singles were not appearing on albums.

    This actually was a problem with the very first US Beatles album, "Meet the Beatles" because everyone expected it to have "Hold Your Hand", which was the driving single, but it wasn't on the British album, "With the Beatles." As a result several songs were cut and then reissued (with some singles) on "The Second Album." The same thing happened with "Something New" (which had some leftovers on it), "Beatles '65" and "Beatles VI" (which were essentially Xmas 1964 album, "Beatles for Sale" with various singles added), the US version of "Help!" which included only 7 songs from the British album, and then finally "Rubber Soul" which also cut from the original and added leftovers.

    For "Revolver" they again cut three, and then (IIRC) a few weeks before issued "Yesterday and Today" which is actually a compilation of songs from albums ranging from "Help!" up through "Revolver" with a few singles thrown in ("Day Tripper" being the most famous.) The album iSteve referenced,"Hey Jude" was entirely made up of singles that had never been memorialized on an album.

    The Beatles demanded a change in the practice even before Sgt Pepper beginning June, 1967. This was because that album was engineered such that breaks were not really feasible. The "Butcher Baby" cover pictures were in the context of a number of weird shoots, I actually don't think there was much of a message at all, but, popularly, it was believed to be about Vietnam at the time (general anti-war sentiment.) The idea that it was a reaction to cutting up albums came a bit later.

    Capitol Records actually came late to the party, because it had declined the option to distribute the Beatles’ records in America– until Beatlemania washed over the New World, a few months after it had manifested itself in the Old. That is why “Introducing . . . The Beatles” (1964), which was basically an American version of the Beatles’ debut album in Britain, “Please Please Me” (1963), was released on Vee-Jay Records (which had been founded by a married couple, in 1953, in my future birthplace of Gary, before it moved on up to Chicago), ten days before “Meet the Beatles!” was released on Capitol. I think that my sister bought the “She Loves You” 45 (which I still should have, in storage, with the rest of my vinyl collection) on the Swan label, early in 1964, for the same reason!?! The “Please Please Me” 45 also was first released in America on Vee-Jay, and first played by Chicago legend Dick Biondi, on WLS:

    ***

    Capitol Records, EMI’s United States label, was offered the right to release “Please Please Me” in the US, but turned it down.[24] Instead, it was placed with Transglobal, an EMI affiliate that worked to place foreign masters with US record labels.[24] It was told to find an American outlet for the record as quickly as possible, in order to appease Martin and Beatles manager Brian Epstein.[24] “Please Please Me” was then offered to Atlantic, which also rejected it.[24] Finally, Vee-Jay, which had released the top-five hit “I Remember You” by Frank Ifield in 1962 (another record that Capitol had turned down), was offered the right to issue “Please Please Me” in the States, and chose to do so.[24] The exact date of the US issue was lost for decades, but research published in 2004 showed that the single, “Please Please Me”/”Ask Me Why”, was released by Vee-Jay on 7 February 1963,[25] coincidentally exactly one year before the Beatles’ plane landed in New York on their first visit as a band to America.

    Dick Biondi, a disc jockey on WLS in Chicago and a friend of Vee-Jay executive Ewart Abner, played the song on the radio from February 1963, perhaps as early as 8 February 1963, thus becoming the first DJ to play a Beatles record in the United States.[26] Art Roberts, legendary DJ and music director at the time, tells how the record came to be played first at the station:

    “Let me tell you the story of ‘Please Please Me’. The record was released on the Vee-Jay label. It was a local Chicago recording company. The owner, Ewart Abner, brought a copy of the record to WLS. I was the music director at the time and listened to his story about a group, and looked at pictures in teen magazines he brought back from England. I figured, what if this group would get as popular in the United States as they were in England and Europe. So I added the record to the list.”

    On WLS “Please Please Me” peaked at number 35 on 15 March on the second of its two weeks on the “Silver Dollar Survey”, in addition to its two airplay weeks.[26][27] However, the song did not chart on any other major national American survey until 1964.

    The first pressings of the Vee-Jay single, which was assigned the catalog number 498, featured a typographical error: the band’s name was spelled “The Beattles” with two “t”s.[28][29] WLS used this spelling on its Silver Dollar Surveys in 1963. Later copies of the single corrected this.[30] Also, the composers on the Vee-Jay edition were credited on both sides as “J. Lennon-P. McCartney”, unlike on the UK Parlophone edition (which listed the names in the reverse order). However, with the exception of Chicago, the record was a flop as it sold approximately 7,310 copies.[29] Today, copies of Vee-Jay 498—whether with the incorrect or correct spelling of the Beatles on the label—are valuable collector’s items.

    ***

    For all I know, I and/or some of my siblings might well have been among that first radio audience ever to hear the Beatles on the American airwaves– unless Dick Biondi played it after we all had nodded off, that Friday night, in February 1963!?! WLS was our top rock station; Biondi had the 9 p.m. to midnight shift (until he left the station, later that same year, as the result of a dispute):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Biondi

    Anyway, the normal practice for pop groups, prior to the Beatles, was to release singles, until they scored an appreciable hit, and then to make an album with the hit(s) on it, often filling it with covers of other peoples’ hits. Someone like Sinatra, on the other hand, recorded albums as distinct works, while also releasing singles, which would later be collected onto albums, along with tracks that had not made it onto the albums for which they were originally recorded. The Capitol Records practice of cutting the early Beatles albums down from 14 to 12 tracks, vis-a-vis the Parlophone versions, was not simply a matter of excising their hit singles, so that fans would not be buying them twice– nor dissuaded from buying the singles. For instance, for “Rubber Soul” (1965):

    ***

    The American edition differed markedly from its British counterpart. Four tracks were removed and set aside for the next American album, Yesterday and Today: “Drive My Car”, “Nowhere Man”, “What Goes On” and “If I Needed Someone”. These were replaced with two tracks from the UK Help! album: “I’ve Just Seen a Face” and “It’s Only Love”. The total time was 28:55, nearly 7 minutes shorter than the British version. Through peculiarities of sequencing, by placing the Help! tracks at the beginning of each side, Rubber Soul was deliberately reconfigured to appear a “folk rock” album to angle the Beatles into that emergent lucrative American genre during 1965.[50]

    ***

    “Nowhere Man” was the only hit from among those several tracks, backed by “What Goes On” (1966), with the others not released as singles at all. Instead of being included on “Rubber Soul” (1965), they were released as a single, in February 1966, and then on “Yesterday and Today” (1966), a few months later. So, they were not cut from “Rubber Soul” because they already had been made available as singles, and they were later included on “Yesterday and Today” even though they had recently been on a hit 45. The importance of “Rubber Soul”– from which those four songs had been excised, from its American version, with two others added– was duly noted by another seminal figure in rock music:

    ***

    The US version of the album greatly influenced Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys. Wilson believed it was the first time in pop music that the focus had shifted from just making popular singles to making an actual album, without the usual filler tracks. He “answered” the album by releasing Pet Sounds in 1966.[44]

    ***

    Frank Sinatra, of course, had been doing that since the mid-1950s, on the Beatles’ future label, Capitol Records. As I mentioned in a previous comment, those Sinatra albums had included as many as 16 tracks, from the mid-1950s, and occasionally exceeded 50 minutes in playing time.

  200. On The Sopranos it was a very good year.

  201. @anon
    It would appear as though Old Blue Eyes is a little too cishet and blue-eyed to merit a Google Doodle.

    “t would appear as though Old Blue Eyes is a little too cishet and blue-eyed to merit a Google Doodle.”

    Frank Sinatra is too Stale and Pale for Nonwhites who vote Democrat, which is the main demographic that Google caters to.

    What percentage of The Black Lives Matter members can name at least 1 Frank Sinatra song right off the top of their heads without having to Google it?

  202. @Former Darfur
    Elvis adored and was completely subservient to The Col. Even back then, people saw it as an abusive and domineering relationship, and Elvis knew it. He made his decision and that was that.

    If the Col. had been deported, Elvis would likely be here today.

    “If the Col. had been deported, Elvis would likely be here today.”

    If Donald Trump was old enough to have been president back than, he would have deported the Col. back to The Netherlands where he belonged.

  203. @SPMoore8
    Just for purposes of self-actualization, I have listened to that abysmal recording and, in reference to someone else's post, "you have my gratitude." It was, by the way, awful.

    Thank you!

    It was, by the way, awful.

    What!?! Maybe you just have bad taste. 🙂

  204. @ScarletNumber

    If we go by total sales here and abroad, then McDonald’s, which can boast of Billions Sold, takes the prize for the cuisine Most Relevant For Today.
     
    Yes because food and music are the same.

    “Yes because food and music are the same.”

    They pretty much are. Lil Wayne for example is one of the most successful music artists of all time if judging strictly by the number of albums he has sold and number of songs he has sold on music downloading sites like iTunes and Spotify for example.

    Lil Wayne is the Taco Bell of music. Quantity does not always equal quality. Just because it sells a lot, doesn’t make it good quality.

  205. Ginger haired Peter Pan sings a Frank Sinatra song for a Geico commercial.

  206. @SPMoore8
    Iron Butterfly's 18 minute "Inna Gadda da Vida" and no one could dance through the whole thing. Incidentally it's understood that the title is a drunken slurred version of "In the Garden of Eden", but nobody had a clue in 1966.

    I knew that when I saw them at the Fillmore East in 1968. It was the first time I saw flame pots on the stage; they came on during the guitar solo. IIRC, Blue Cheer opened for them – the loudest band I ever heard.

    • Agree: Spmoore8
  207. @D. K.
    What about Jonathan Schwartz (the elder son of composer Arthur Schwartz, the songwriting partner of lyricist, and MGM executive, Howard Dietz)?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Schwartz_(radio)

    There is also Will Friedwald:

    ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Friedwald

    I have Friedland’s Stardust Memories, and the video of Schwartz père at his YMHA talk.

    Revealing anecdote from the latter: Schwartz and Dietz used to mock a certain lyricist with lower standards than theirs with the “rhyming” couplet

    Lord, please save us
    from Benny Davis!

    Would anybody younger than Steve even get the joke?

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