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Statistics Finland: "Total Fertility Rate at an All-Time Low"
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Unlike Israel, Finland is a country with a fair amount of room and an infinite amount of water. The economy took a beating when the iPhone did in Nokia, but it seems to have recovered somewhat in recent years. Yet, from the Finnish government’s Statistics Finland, the Total Fertility Rate (expected average number of babies per woman per lifetime) has fallen from 1.87 in 2010 to 1.49 in 2017:

Total fertility rate at an all-time low

Published: 27 April 2018

According to Statistics Finland’s data on population changes, the total fertility rate decreased for the seventh year in succession. At the fertility rate prevailing in 2017, a woman would give birth to an average of 1.49 children. The number is an all-time low. The number of children born in 2017 was 50,321.

Year 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017
Number of live births 59 530 60 430 60 980 59 961 59 493 58 134 57 232 55 472 52 814 50 321
Total fertility rate 1,85 1,86 1,87 1,83 1,80 1,75 1,71 1,65 1,57 1,49
Mother’s mean age by all live births 30,1 30,1 30,1 30,3 30,3 30,4 30,5 30,6 30,8 30,9
Mother’s mean age by first live birth 28,2 28,2 28,3 28,4 28,5 28,6 28,6 28,8 29,1 29,2
 
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  1. Its not the iPhone that did in Nokia.

  2. “Statistics Finland”? Have they been drinking with Canadians?

    As with the ridiculous “Czechia”, they don’t do this in their own language; why do they do it in ours?

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Uh... you are wayyyy too triggered over this.

    Czechia : Česko* :: Slovakia : Slovensko**

    * What Czechs call their own country

    **What Slovaks call their own country

    [Slovenia in Slovenian is Slovenija]

    , @Stan Adams
    In Miami, the Port of Miami is now called PortMiami (one word). The Historical Museum of South Florida is now HistoryMiami (also one word). Miami Jai-Alai is now Casino Miami. The Miami Metrozoo is now Zoo Miami.

    Where will it end?
    , @Autochthon
    It's all part of the ongoing stultification – er, sorry, enstupidification?:

    - WW (formerly Weight Watchers; and, no, it's not an acronym
    - EUR-Lex
    - Ryanair
    - Mastercard, like Prince Nelson once upon a time, ia now an unpronouncable symbol

    And so on...

    It's a confluence of several things, and one day I will probably finish my book about the exponential acceleration of the degradation of language and effective communication in recent years due to historically unprecendented changes in technology and demography (language has of course always changed, but never like it is now!). The most salient causes, though, include:

    1) Short Attention Span Theatre: Twitter, texting, and such make proper typing more difficult (because phones have tiny, shitty keyboards and the media encourage lazy abbreviations like b4, l8, bcuz, and such.

    2) Every Man a Writer: For a long time many stupid people seldom wrote, and that was just as well, since stupid people cannot master writing. Now every illiterate Negro in Chad and every savage cholo in Miami has a smartphone; as their writings proliferate, others are exposed again and again to shitty writing until it becomes internalised by other idiots, young people who don't know better, and others who just give up and assimilate to the stupidity.

    3) Kakistocracy: Corporations, government, and academia used to be run by smart people. Now they are run by clever fools, confidence artists, people chosen because they havw vaginas or brown skin, and so on. They are also now stuffed with those prone to flashy marketing, which is more important than ever to rule a people stupider than ever. Thus for titles in art, instead of The Posthumous Papers of the Pickwick Club we get American Dreamz (yes, I know that film was actually a quite brilliant satire of the very phenomenon about which I write, but the title is a good example); for pseudonyms instead of Publius we get Tekashi 6ix9ine, and so on.

    4) Style Without Substance (or, Baffle 'Em With Bullshit): Polysyllabic word salad, ostentatious jargon, and downright nonsense words have replaced concise writing precisely because the writing has no underlying substance to concisely convey. Thus we get Sophie Lewis and Tanasy Coats hemorrhaging reams upon reams about "transitioning" (transition is a noun, not a verb; the perfectly sound verb "changing" is usually what is meant); their "lived experiences" (are there any other kind? – I suppose a corpse may be said to experience burial, but that's straining the language); "white privilege" (privilege, like all abstact nouns, has no colour; one might write about "the privileges only white people have," or some such, but even then only if any such existed in the way the writer pretends they do...and they don't)...and so on. Pick up an academic paper anout he humanities, or any corporate white paper to be dazzled by more examples. Whether the writers are bemoaning "gendered heteronormativity" on campus or espousing "synergy in the technology space" from a skyscraper, they're babbling nonsense all the same.

    From The Guardian's own guidelines:

    abbreviations and acronyms

    Do not use full points in abbreviations, or spaces between initials, including those in proper names: IMF, mph, eg, 4am, M&S, No 10, AN Wilson, WH Smith, etc.

    Use all capitals if an abbreviation is pronounced as the individual letters (an initialism): BBC, CEO, US, VAT, etc; if it is an acronym (pronounced as a word) spell out with initial capital, eg Nasa, Nato, Unicef, unless it can be considered to have entered the language as an everyday word, such as awol, laser and, more recently, asbo, pin number and sim card. Note that pdf and plc are lowercase.

    If an abbreviation or acronym is to be used more than once in a piece, put it in brackets at first mention: so Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), seasonal affective disorder (Sad); alternatively, use the abbreviation with a brief description, eg the conservation charity the RSPB. Remember that our international online readership will not necessarily be aware of even well-known UK abbreviations. If an organisation is mentioned only once, it is not necessary to give its abbreviation or acronym.

    Cap up single letters in such expressions as C-list, F-word, "the word assassin contains four Ss", etc
     
    Cap up, lads, 'fore the Acpo come 'round fer ye at 4am!
  3. The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    This phenomenon, above all else, is why despair is a sin.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Yes, and the best lack children, while the worst have children at their expense.
    Goodbye, Finland.
    Tragic and unnecessary.
  4. Wow the degree of Jewish control over Finland has really gone up since 2005. Who knew?

    • Replies: @fnn
    Yeah. I'm sure Washington and Hollywood have no influence whatsoever on cultural trends in Finland.
    , @Anonymous
    America won WW2, and consequently American politics and culture have had no influence on European countries.
    , @reiner Tor
    That reminds me of the joke about the cowboy who goes into the bar and orders ten whiskies. Drinks them all, then orders eight whiskies. Drinks these as well, then orders six whiskies. After he drank these, too, he (now visibly drunk) says: "I don't understand. I'm drinking less and less, yet I'm getting drunker and drunker..."
  5. • Replies: @j2
    You find the report made by Finland from this site:
    https://www.arkisto.fi/uploads/Julkaisut/sarjajulkaisut/SS-VOLUNTEERS_verkkoon.pdf

    From page 2002 you find the final estimate, not all these civilians were Jews:
    "As the documentation on these events only occa­sionally mentions the number of civilians killed by Finnish volunteers, the real numbers are likely to be higher, perhaps at least a few dozens."

    The number of Russian PWOs shot by Finnish SS soldiers in SS Division Wiking Ukraine is probably larger.

    The Finnish report can be useful for estimating the number of Jews killed in the Eastern front. There were 6-7 SS divisions. Wiking is estimated to have killed 10,000 civilians, out of them over 4,000 to less than 7,000 were Jews. The Wehrmach participated in much fewer atrocities and was mostly in the first wave, the SS-Divisions were second wave to pacify the occupied area. Multiplying 7,000 by 7 gives a rough estimate 50,000 Jews killed by these divisions. Then followed Einsatzgruppen. They were smaller but more effective in killings. Estimating their death toll to 50,000 Jews, the total is around 100,000, which is the estimate I used in my final calculations. The total could be larger, say up to 200,000, but not much larger than that as these killings were done in the attack stage of the war.
  6. Curiously, 5+ births have gone from <4% of all births in 1990 to 5% of all births in 2017, and they've had a general trend of increase as well. This when Finland went from ~65k births in 1990 to ~50k births in 2017.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "Curiously, 5+ births have gone from <4% of all births in 1990 to 5% of all births in 2017"

    The headscarf and pushchair brigade are in Helsinki too, just not yet in Oslo quantity. Helsinki is still a lovely city to walk round, partly because it's still very Finnish, where so many European cities feature the same non-European minority groups*. But outside the centre women in headscarves with kids and strollers are not a rare sight.

    Pity, it's a lovely country, but middle class Finns seem pretty pozzed. Ideal job seems to be "something with the UN".


    * see the 2018 London homicides list - fewer and fewer native victims, though there's a continuing toll of the elderly poor who didn't get out in time.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46128268
    , @AnonFinn
    Not so curious.
    1990: the somalis and muslims started flowing in.

    Btw 2018 is even worse, closer to 47,5 k, I think.
  7. Well, someone’s got to make room for the four billion Africans on the way.

    • LOL: Stan d Mute
  8. The problem is not at all that of falling birthrates, the problem is what happens next. –
    Is the natural beauty and the economic stability which follows the falling birthrates a societal status, which is self-sufficient? Or one who seeks redemption (or, less dramatic: a solution) by growing nationally by other means (migrants, for example)?

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    I am guessing Finland doesn't have as large an immigrant population to inflate their birth figures as most Western countries do, so I suspect these figures aren't so bad. Sanctions on Russia also hit Finland hard, along with the collapse of Nokia. Of course much of Finland really isn't terribly inhabitable, bit like Sweden where almost all the population lives in the southern half of the country.
    , @Dmitry
    The problem is dependency ratio, and government attempt to resolve this by unfiltered immigration.

    By itself - if we ignore dependency ratio for a minute - there is a mix of positive and negatives to an ageing and smaller, or at least non-expanding) population like Japan, in which unfiltered immigration is not used as a solution to correct the population decline.

    Positively, there is a benefit to increasing per capita GDP growth (as the same capital base divided by less).

    With a certain configuration of aging population pyramid, crime rates will fall rapidly, other things equal, as the majority of crime is by young adults.

    At schools (as happened in Russia in the last years), there is less overcrowding and possibility for better student to teacher ratios in the classroom.

    It becomes easier, ceteris paribus, for young people (born in the small cohorts) to get good jobs, as the job to applicant ratio for graduates improves. Overall there is downward pressure on unemployment rates (and upward pressure on wages).

    There is a better situation in the housing market, and housing should be more affordable ceteris paribus.

    And there is much more political stability and even more conservative politics and voting patterns, with an aging population. For some countries, this "political stability" is less a problem anyway though (I doubt it is relevant to Finland).

    -

    All this is of course ignoring the problem of the increasing dependency ratio of aging population configurations. This can be partly ameliorated by raising pension ages, but this is extremely unpopular for politicians.

    There's also the fact that it can result in a decline in a countries' net power,other things equal.

    And the upward pressure on wages, is another topic which can be interpreted differently (as good or as bad) depending on if you are employee or employer.

    , @ken
    "Is the natural beauty and the economic stability which follows the falling birthrates" How does that happen?
  9. The figures are even lower in Helsinki, with the total fertility being 1.19 in 2017.

    Here is the ethnic breakdown of the figures, with the usual trend of certain groups far outpacing the native population with their fertility rates.

    https://ulkomaalaistaustaisethelsingissa.fi/en/content/birth-rate

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    Those fertility statistics from Helsinki are inexplicable when one considers the relative beauty of women from Helsinki and women from outside Helsinki having children in Helsinki.

    https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/theres-controversy-in-finland-after-the-miss-helsinki-2017-winner-ended-up-being-an-eh-looking-nigerian-lady/
    , @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
    Are you sure these are accurate? The Finnish TFR has been around 1.2 for the past 20 years, if it is.

    In order to be raised to 1.7, that would mean a disastrous amount of Somali and Arab children are being born.

    I'm sure its lower than the national average, but 1.2 seems very low.
  10. And now we face – the end of the Finnish.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    The Finnish Finish, you're saying?
  11. @The Practical Conservative
    Curiously, 5+ births have gone from <4% of all births in 1990 to 5% of all births in 2017, and they've had a general trend of increase as well. This when Finland went from ~65k births in 1990 to ~50k births in 2017.

    “Curiously, 5+ births have gone from <4% of all births in 1990 to 5% of all births in 2017"

    The headscarf and pushchair brigade are in Helsinki too, just not yet in Oslo quantity. Helsinki is still a lovely city to walk round, partly because it’s still very Finnish, where so many European cities feature the same non-European minority groups*. But outside the centre women in headscarves with kids and strollers are not a rare sight.

    Pity, it’s a lovely country, but middle class Finns seem pretty pozzed. Ideal job seems to be “something with the UN”.

    * see the 2018 London homicides list – fewer and fewer native victims, though there’s a continuing toll of the elderly poor who didn’t get out in time.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46128268

    • Replies: @Lot
    Anon253's link shows the average Helsinki Somali has 3.5 TFR, while Finn women it is one third of this.

    So there's your rebound in big families.
    , @Perspective
    A significant proportion of London murder victims seem to Somali, yet it seems this group is heavily favoured for refugee resettlement in European countries.
  12. @The Practical Conservative
    Curiously, 5+ births have gone from <4% of all births in 1990 to 5% of all births in 2017, and they've had a general trend of increase as well. This when Finland went from ~65k births in 1990 to ~50k births in 2017.

    Not so curious.
    1990: the somalis and muslims started flowing in.

    Btw 2018 is even worse, closer to 47,5 k, I think.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Not so curious.
    1990: the somalis and muslims started flowing in.
     
    Urban Minnesotans seem less worked-up than other places about Somalis because they arrived at the same time as native black welfare refugees from Illinois and other neighboring states, who turned the largest city into "Murderapolis". (Thankfully, mostly each other.)

    In comparison, the Somalis appear almost benign. And, as with most tight-family immigrant groups, their violent crime tends to be internal.
    , @Hail

    2018 is even worse, closer to 47,5 k, I think
     
    Sometimes it can be useful, as a thought exercise, to look at what the population will be if births hold at a given level indefinitely (this is a simplification of the factors involved [for one thing, as long as TFR is below 2.1, contraction is set to occur], of course, but benefits from its simplicity):

    47,500 births per year (x) 85 years (assumed average lifespan) = 4,000,000 Finns.

    This does not seem a bad number. Finland in 1950 had the same number of citizens.

    The question is only secondarily numbers and must, must, must primarily by the racial-stock of the new births.

  13. @Reg Cæsar
    "Statistics Finland"? Have they been drinking with Canadians?

    As with the ridiculous "Czechia", they don't do this in their own language; why do they do it in ours?



    https://smartvatten.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/tilastokeskus-artikkelikuva-300x130.png



    https://cdn.hssmedia.fi/jobben/company_logo/statistikcentralen-20160222084034.png

    Uh… you are wayyyy too triggered over this.

    Czechia : Česko* :: Slovakia : Slovensko**

    * What Czechs call their own country

    **What Slovaks call their own country

    [Slovenia in Slovenian is Slovenija]

    • Replies: @Doogie
    Monkey languages.
    , @Autochthon
    U.S.A.*
    Insufferable Polyglot Shithole**

    *What Africans, Chinese, Hindoos, Vietnamese, Arabs, Guatemalans, Mexicans, Dominicans, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, Panamanians, Ecuadorians, Colombians, Venezuelans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Laotians, Cambodians, Filipinos, Bolivians, Peruvians, Russians, Armenians, Jews, Haitians, Bahamians, Malaysians, Indonesians, Kazakhs, Turks, Iranians, Cubans, Taiwanese, Koreans, and, now, Japanese (organising their closets – another job Americans just won't do!) call their own country.

    **What actual Americans now call their own former country.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Uh… you are wayyyy too triggered over this.
     
    Just like that lookout on the flying bridge of the Titanic. The ice isn't that big, kid.
  14. Don’t worry, Steve.

    Didn’t you know that Somalis are the ‘new Finns’. Well, at least that’s what that ‘clever’ man in The Economist told me.

  15. It’s a bad sign. Fertility down, immigration up, and there goes another European country! Plus women run Finland.

  16. @Dieter Kief
    The problem is not at all that of falling birthrates, the problem is what happens next. -
    Is the natural beauty and the economic stability which follows the falling birthrates a societal status, which is self-sufficient? Or one who seeks redemption (or, less dramatic: a solution) by growing nationally by other means (migrants, for example)?

    I am guessing Finland doesn’t have as large an immigrant population to inflate their birth figures as most Western countries do, so I suspect these figures aren’t so bad. Sanctions on Russia also hit Finland hard, along with the collapse of Nokia. Of course much of Finland really isn’t terribly inhabitable, bit like Sweden where almost all the population lives in the southern half of the country.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Sanctions on Russia also hit Finland hard, along with the collapse of Nokia.
     
    Is there any actual evidence that economic problems on their own have a negative effect on the birth rate? Any evidence at all?

    Isn't it more likely that Finland is just gradually getting more pozzed? Isn't it more likely that it's almost always the poz that lowers fertility rates? Is any other explanation really needed?

    And the more prosperous a country is the faster the poz spreads.
  17. @danand
    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-finnish-soldiers-participated-in-mass-murders-of-jews-during-world-war-ii-report-fi-1.6917709

    I guess Finns are just not chosen enough to survive long term?

    You find the report made by Finland from this site:
    https://www.arkisto.fi/uploads/Julkaisut/sarjajulkaisut/SS-VOLUNTEERS_verkkoon.pdf

    From page 2002 you find the final estimate, not all these civilians were Jews:
    “As the documentation on these events only occa­sionally mentions the number of civilians killed by Finnish volunteers, the real numbers are likely to be higher, perhaps at least a few dozens.”

    The number of Russian PWOs shot by Finnish SS soldiers in SS Division Wiking Ukraine is probably larger.

    The Finnish report can be useful for estimating the number of Jews killed in the Eastern front. There were 6-7 SS divisions. Wiking is estimated to have killed 10,000 civilians, out of them over 4,000 to less than 7,000 were Jews. The Wehrmach participated in much fewer atrocities and was mostly in the first wave, the SS-Divisions were second wave to pacify the occupied area. Multiplying 7,000 by 7 gives a rough estimate 50,000 Jews killed by these divisions. Then followed Einsatzgruppen. They were smaller but more effective in killings. Estimating their death toll to 50,000 Jews, the total is around 100,000, which is the estimate I used in my final calculations. The total could be larger, say up to 200,000, but not much larger than that as these killings were done in the attack stage of the war.

  18. @Reg Cæsar
    "Statistics Finland"? Have they been drinking with Canadians?

    As with the ridiculous "Czechia", they don't do this in their own language; why do they do it in ours?



    https://smartvatten.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/tilastokeskus-artikkelikuva-300x130.png



    https://cdn.hssmedia.fi/jobben/company_logo/statistikcentralen-20160222084034.png

    In Miami, the Port of Miami is now called PortMiami (one word). The Historical Museum of South Florida is now HistoryMiami (also one word). Miami Jai-Alai is now Casino Miami. The Miami Metrozoo is now Zoo Miami.

    Where will it end?

    • Replies: @dearieme
    "Where will it end?"

    HellSatan.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    There is something called "Education Minnesota". I think it's the local NEA. Or AFT. Whatever.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    At least it's not the "Port of Authority", which always made me cringe.
  19. OK, can we finally say “Shut up!” to anyone who tells us how the Scandinavian welfare state is pro-family?

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    The northern welfare-state is in favor of families. What the Scandinavian welfare-state can't overcome though is the global economy. There aren't that many Nokias in Finland. And if such a big company declines, the welfare state can't fix the economic downfall, it can only dampen it. One way to react to such a downfall is to lower the birthrates. Perfectly reasonable.
    , @dfordoom

    OK, can we finally say “Shut up!” to anyone who tells us how the Scandinavian welfare state is pro-family?
     
    I don't think it's the welfare state at all. It's the cultural baggage that has been added on top. Feminism, LGBT activism. Mostly feminism. Plus increasing materialism and consumerism.

    Again it would be nice to see some evidence that it's the welfare state in itself that is the problem.

    It's always tempting to find simplistic bogeymen to blame for everything that has gone wrong. It's the welfare state. It's the commies. It's the Jews. It's the blacks.
  20. Anonymous[396] • Disclaimer says:

    Maybe Finns are naturally conscientious and if they feel they can’t support more children on their own, they don’t have them, as opposed to Somalis, who keep having children whether they can support them or not(even better when white taxpayers do it for them). Combining this with the ability to follow current events and economic trends and you might have a recipe for declining birth rates.

    Finland’s economy never recovered after the 2008 crash to the same extent as the rest of the Nordics. The English-language Finnish press is always full of doom-and-gloom stories about the economy. Also, if memory serves, Finland’s birth rate really dropped when they experienced severe economic problems(I think it was the early 1990’s), and it rose again after(though not to replacement levels).

    • Agree: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @bomag

    Finland’s economy never recovered after the 2008 crash to the same extent as the rest of the Nordics.
     
    In the West and Asia, rising wealth coincides with reduced fertility.

    Now we're finding out that an economic slowdown coincides with reduced fertility?

    We can't win.
    , @Hail

    Finland’s economy never recovered after the 2008 crash to the same extent as the rest of the Nordics.
     
    Finland's TFR loss from its 2008-2011 level (1.85) to its 2017 level (1.49) (see OP) is a loss of 0.36 TFR points (which, in practical terms, equals 10,000 fewer babies per year). This page gives the official the TFR data by region and year.

    It's no surprise that the lowest TFR is in the Helsinki region, population 1,488,236 (note: this population figure may constitute hate-speech in some EU member states). The Helsinki region sits at 1.38 as of 2017.

    Helsinki has 30% of the total population of Finland, so some might hypothesize that the modest TFR drop might be driven a large fall in Helsinki fertility: It is not. Helsinki's drop is actually below average.

    Finland's fertility decline is across the board and without any coherent regional or socioeconomic causation mechanism that jumps out. Here are the biggest and smallest TFR drops by region:

    TFR in 2008 / TFR in 2017 / Loss: Region of Finland
    - 1.78 / 1.61 / -0.17 points: Satakunta [Smallest drop]
    - 1.88 / 1.68 / -0.20 points: Åland Islands [2nd Smallest drop]
    - 1.70 / 1.38 / -0.32 points: Uusimaa (Helsinki) [Approx. average drop]
    - 1.85 / 1.49 / -0.36 points: Whole Country
    - 2.00 / 1.52 / -0.48 points: Lapland [2nd Largest drop]
    - 2.38 / 1.83 / -0.55 points: North Ostrobothnia [Largest drop]

    The largest-drop regions are simply those that started higher and had more space to fall.

    North Ostrobothnia's main city is Oulu, the metro area of which has half the state's population. It continues to attract new people, +63% population from 1980 to 2015 due to internal migrants. "At the end of 2015, 5,235 (2.6%) of Oulu residents were not Finnish citizens. Over 40% of them were from Asia and Oceania." These numbers are low (only ~1% of Oulu residents may be incompatible foreigners) and it doesn't seem plausible that their small presence will have directly depressed native fertility in Oulu in the 2010s.

    Lapland, otoh, is super rural and economically sluggish. It seems to be undergoing a longterm, modest brain drain, with a -10% net population loss from 1995 to 2015. A few, tiny non-Western 'beachheads' have been established up there, but collectively non-Europeans are still in the 1-2% range in Finnish Lapland, with the largest group being Myanmarese (415 people in 2017; 0.2%).

    The smallest-drop regions are also a mixed bag in socioeconomic terms; they started about even with the national average but are now well above it:

    Satakunta, like Lapland, has been in long-term population decline (-8% loss from the 1980s to mid 2010s) and wiki depicts it as not quite a Finnish Rust Belt area but having some affinity to such. Industries are energy (Satakunta produces one fourth of Finland's electricity) and agriculture. Pori is the largest city in the state (pop.: 85,000; 38% of the state's population), and its non-Western foreigner share is small, <2%. Pori's fertility is shockingly low, though, with population contraction already biting: In 2016, 722 babies were born in Pori, 1,244 Pori citizens died, and 218 new migrants came in, unspecified how many were domestic and how many international.

    The Aland Islands, off the southwest coast, are doing very well and have been steadily gaining net population. The Aland economy is "dominated by shipping, trade and tourism," and unemployment is very low. They use a lot of wind power. As for non-European foreigners in the Aland Islands, there are few, and not many at all of the most problematic sort (Muslims, Somalis): Thais at 153 people as of 2017 (0.5%) are the highest, second being Iranians at 106 people (0.3%), and third Filipinos at 72 people (0.2%).

    I am having a hard time finding a coherent narrative for why fertility declined in the 2010s in Finland. The presence of racial foreigners and Muslims on Finnish soil in non-trivial numbers, for the first time, is correlated with the decline, but the numbers do not really seem to correlate at the regional level, nor does any other narrative emerge from looking at where TFRs held up best and where they sank most.

  21. Where is going to be the last redoubt of the European? Hungary? Lapland? Russia?

    I visited the British Camp a few weeks ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Camp – apparently the last stand of the Brits against the Romans.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    No doubt built by the 'Beaker Folk' out of ancestral, almost genetic, engrained habit.

    Such massive earthworks are always the signature of Steppe peoples, in the same way as fans are the signatures of beavers.
  22. @TelfoedJohn
    Where is going to be the last redoubt of the European? Hungary? Lapland? Russia?

    I visited the British Camp a few weeks ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Camp - apparently the last stand of the Brits against the Romans.

    No doubt built by the ‘Beaker Folk’ out of ancestral, almost genetic, engrained habit.

    Such massive earthworks are always the signature of Steppe peoples, in the same way as fans are the signatures of beavers.

    • Replies: @Doogie
    The Bell Beaker culture died out roughly 1.5 millennia before that thing was constructed. They were never really steppe people.
  23. @Redneck farmer
    OK, can we finally say "Shut up!" to anyone who tells us how the Scandinavian welfare state is pro-family?

    The northern welfare-state is in favor of families. What the Scandinavian welfare-state can’t overcome though is the global economy. There aren’t that many Nokias in Finland. And if such a big company declines, the welfare state can’t fix the economic downfall, it can only dampen it. One way to react to such a downfall is to lower the birthrates. Perfectly reasonable.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    Finland can put on a bright face but losing Nokia is a heavy blow. New tech they come up with, China will duplicate and sell cheaper. Iceland crashed in 2008 but at least had and has huge fisheries that are export oriented.
    , @Anonymous
    Yes Finland has been in economic hardship for a decade now. The triple blow of the Euro crisis, the decline of Nokia, and the mini Cold War with Russia have all hit it hard. Don't birthrates always fall in economic recessions?
    , @Wilkey
    "One way to react to such a downfall is to lower the birthrates."

    Except that white birthrates are dropping in almost every Western country, irrelevant of economic performance. Or a better way to put it is that they tank when the economy tanks, but never fully recover when it improves. The collapse of birthrates is a cultural problem, not an economic one.
    , @Anonymous
    Finnish birthrates were higher when Finns were poor farmers.
  24. @Dieter Kief
    The northern welfare-state is in favor of families. What the Scandinavian welfare-state can't overcome though is the global economy. There aren't that many Nokias in Finland. And if such a big company declines, the welfare state can't fix the economic downfall, it can only dampen it. One way to react to such a downfall is to lower the birthrates. Perfectly reasonable.

    Finland can put on a bright face but losing Nokia is a heavy blow. New tech they come up with, China will duplicate and sell cheaper. Iceland crashed in 2008 but at least had and has huge fisheries that are export oriented.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I don't know.

    Finland's only got 5 million inhabitants or so but (so to speak) infinite woodland and lumber resources.
    If any of you had to do any DIY lately, you must know of the wicked price of sawn, prepared, planed, seasoned timber.
    Surely, there's enough money in lumber alone to support the Finns to a good standard of living.

    Hat tip:

    Timber is so rammed useful and versatile is a construction material that it will *never* be beaten by any artificial substitutes.
    , @Pericles
    Note that Nokia is still around as a telco vendor, but of course no longer is the leader in handset manufacturing.

    Regarding the fall of Nokia, I'd say it started with a bit of hubris, too much middle management infighting and too little CEO paranoia about competition while the smartphone train was leaving the station; then choosing the wrong new CEO; then the new CEO choosing the wrong new strategy. Poof, gone.
  25. The truth is that white “men” cannot satisfy their women. There is a reason more and more white females are bearing Children of Colored

    Why wound white girls or any girl want to bear the child of a weak wimpy man

    • Troll: IHTG
    • Replies: @Faraday's Bobcat
    Projection
    , @Anonymous
    Contradicting your hypothesis is the fact that the white men who tend to father the most children are the least like thugs:

    - Amish
    - Orthodox Jews
    - Mormon beta dads

    The only exception is polygamist cult leaders like Warren Jeffs and David Koresh.

    , @Corn
    “Why wound white girls or any girl want to bear the child of a weak wimpy man”

    Affirmative action for ducks?
  26. After the Iceland financial crises:
    Iceland second most fertile nation in Europe
    https://www.icelandreview.com/news/iceland-second-most-fertile-nation-europe/

    But a decade later the birthrate dropped to the Euro average:
    Fewer Births, Fertility Rate Drops in Iceland
    https://www.icelandreview.com/news/fewer-births-fertility-rate-drops-iceland/

    What happened? With no first-hand knowledge, just reading the banking crash reports, instead of strict austerity measures on the civilian population Iceland devalued its currency, allowed bond defaults, and allowed real estate prices to collapse. Military spending was not an issue for Iceland. This essentially channeled money into young people and reduced the cost of real estate which made having children easier.

    Curiously, increasing the number of Icelanders is what long term debt holders of Icelandic securities, including currency, would want. The solution the Eurocrats chose for the PIIGS is just the opposite, increase military spending while reducing the number of citizens in the PIIGS and increasing the number of immigrants.

    A general collapse of real estate prices in the PIIGS area does not seem to have been enough to change anything.

    • Replies: @Hail

    After the Iceland financial crises
     
    The article you link to is dated March 2007, which is definitely before the (Iceland) Financial Crisis. Iceland's financial-political crisis was a late 2008 to 2009 affair, in line with the timing of the global crisis.

    A change in fertility decisions, even if immediate following a political change, will tend to lag in the data by at least nine months for obvious reasons. The b.2010 cohort will be the first conceived after the crisis.

    I would suggest as a hypothesis that the political shock of late 2008 and 2009 is the cause of the downward fertility shift.

    Iceland TFRs, 1900 to 2018
    - 1900-1931: Relatively steady at ~3.8 (avg.)
    - 1932: 3.3
    - 1933: 3.1
    - 1934-1941: 2.85 average (Great Depression definitely seems to have put downward pressure on fertility in Iceland as elsewhere, causing a loss of nearly a full 1.0 TFR point over the pre-Depression average)
    - 1942: Sudden jump to 3.3 (Icelandic Baby Boom begins) [U.S. occupation of Iceland from June 1941]
    - 1942-1966: 3.8 average
    - 1967-1973: 3.0 average, new equilibrium (Following sudden drops in 1967 and 1968)
    - 1974 to mid 1980s: Iceland's TFR transitions downward to below replacement, similar trajectory but a little later than the core West (Iceland hits <2.1 first in 1984); low-point is 1.92 in 1986.
    - 1988 to 2010: Modest reversal of the 1980s downward trend; steady TFR through 2010 at a healthy 2.1 average (range: 1.95 to 2.3).
    - 2009: 2.22
    - 2010: 2.20
    - 2011: 2.02
    - 2012: 2.04
    - 2013: 1.93
    - 2014: 1.93
    - 2015: 1.81
    - 2016: 1.75
    - 2017: 1.71
    - 2018: (Looks like it will be ~1.85)

    It looks like the real decline is in the 2015 to 2017 period, when Iceland TFR dropped below the previous low-point of 1.9 for the first time. This is well after the political crisis. The losses of 2011-2014 are trivial, at just slightly below its longrun average of the late 1970s through early 2010s (2.1).

    What was happening in Iceland in the mid 2010s?

  27. The World Economic Forum (Davosman, WEF) has some highfalutin multivariable pseudo-explanation for ‘Happiness’, based on the following: “income, healthy life expectancy, social support, freedom, trust and generosity.” Let’s cut to the chase a tad more boldly. Data for 154 countries show that breeding (World Bank numbers) is bad for you. Fertility (lack of) explains almost half of ‘happiness’. (R2 0.45; the correlation is -0.65.)

    On this basis ‘happiness’ is a very transient (not the WEF’s many splendoured) thing. For pretty soon there won’t be any abstemious Finns (or Norwegians, or Danes, or Icelanders…ie John Derbyshire’s ‘Snow people’), guarding the dilution of their joy from potential offspring, left to be happy or sad. But even as still medieval birth rates trend-fall, there’ll be lots of Burundis, or Central African Republics or South Sudans etc (‘Sand people’: the unhappiest countries in the world).

    And – wild guess – the happiness of Snow Peoples will be enhanced/eroded (delete according to gut) by the advance of fecund Sand Peoples their way (by hook, crook or caravan).

  28. @Dieter Kief
    The northern welfare-state is in favor of families. What the Scandinavian welfare-state can't overcome though is the global economy. There aren't that many Nokias in Finland. And if such a big company declines, the welfare state can't fix the economic downfall, it can only dampen it. One way to react to such a downfall is to lower the birthrates. Perfectly reasonable.

    Yes Finland has been in economic hardship for a decade now. The triple blow of the Euro crisis, the decline of Nokia, and the mini Cold War with Russia have all hit it hard. Don’t birthrates always fall in economic recessions?

  29. Steve wrote on Murray that he was basically numbers-cruncher & this is, more or less, what this article about.

    1. everything has ups & downs

    2. we mostly don’t know why

    3. but we should try to investigate what are the causes, with enough honesty to acknowledge that we simply cannot predict most processes.

    World 1900. Don’t need to elaborate on

    World 1930. Cubism, psychoanalysis, planes, radio, tanks, cars, quantum mechanics, film, modernism in all arts, fascism, communism, commercial sound recording,

  30. @Stan Adams
    In Miami, the Port of Miami is now called PortMiami (one word). The Historical Museum of South Florida is now HistoryMiami (also one word). Miami Jai-Alai is now Casino Miami. The Miami Metrozoo is now Zoo Miami.

    Where will it end?

    “Where will it end?”

    HellSatan.

  31. @Lot
    Wow the degree of Jewish control over Finland has really gone up since 2005. Who knew?

    http://darkroom-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/12/AFP_Getty-455453645-760x506.jpg

    Yeah. I’m sure Washington and Hollywood have no influence whatsoever on cultural trends in Finland.

  32. They need more immigration because wombs are rotting the fields of abdomens.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    They need more immigration because wombs are rotting the fields of abdomens.
     
    Making babies: Another job Americans won't do.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    They need more immigration because wombs are rotting the fields of abdomens.
     
    Is this an argument for price supports?
  33. Largely off-topic – but reading these replies, seems like some of you are in need of some good news …

    For everyone who’s ever criticized Trump for not taking decisive executive action instead of waiting for a hostile Congress to act, google ICE / North Carolina / raids. Short summary: Charlotte, NC and several other cities and counties decided they would no longer forward immigration statuses of prisoners to the federal government. So Trump unleashes ICE on the area – multiple large workplace raids over the past week.

    No warnings, no “here’s your summons to appear in court next month.” Those without proof of valid immigration status get put in the back of the van.

    At a hotel in Burlington, NC, rumors abound that a team of ICE agents is staying there. A group of leftist protestors approach the hotel desk and demand that they kick out the federal agents. Hotel staff laughs and says “no.” Leftist agitators grumble and leave without doing anything about it.

    Small numbers, as of now, when compared to the massive illegal alien presence in NC. But it’s a start, and the usual liberal hand-wringing doesn’t appear to be having any effect.

    • Replies: @Corn
    “A group of leftist protestors approach the hotel desk and demand that they kick out the federal agents. Hotel staff laughs and says “no.” ”

    Good for them!
  34. @Tiny Duck
    The truth is that white "men" cannot satisfy their women. There is a reason more and more white females are bearing Children of Colored

    Why wound white girls or any girl want to bear the child of a weak wimpy man

    Projection

  35. Anonymous[185] • Disclaimer says:
    @Clyde
    Finland can put on a bright face but losing Nokia is a heavy blow. New tech they come up with, China will duplicate and sell cheaper. Iceland crashed in 2008 but at least had and has huge fisheries that are export oriented.

    I don’t know.

    Finland’s only got 5 million inhabitants or so but (so to speak) infinite woodland and lumber resources.
    If any of you had to do any DIY lately, you must know of the wicked price of sawn, prepared, planed, seasoned timber.
    Surely, there’s enough money in lumber alone to support the Finns to a good standard of living.

    Hat tip:

    Timber is so rammed useful and versatile is a construction material that it will *never* be beaten by any artificial substitutes.

    • Replies: @Clyde

    Finland’s only got 5 million inhabitants or so but (so to speak) infinite woodland and lumber resources.
     
    Then they should get on with it and start making mega-Euros from lumber. Are the Finnish guys up for this? This looks like a field the women cannot hijack. How come Finns were known for paper mills? That are now closed down? You feed B and C grade trees into paper mills. https://www.concordmonitor.com/logging-industry-law-future-nh-new-hampshire-10513758
  36. Taxation becomes extortionate at relatively low wages.

    33,000 Euro a month is just enough to get by. After taxes that’s maybe 1,400 a month. Try to raise more than one kid on that

    Annual income at Total tax rate
    €13,000 25%
    €33,000 57%
    €47,000 60%
    €83,000 67%
    €94,000 66%
    €127,000 65%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Finland

  37. There appears to be no way to induce atheists to have many babies.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    Bingo. Why should they? We die and that's it.

    The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their heats while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Ecc. 9:3.
  38. @Reg Cæsar
    "Statistics Finland"? Have they been drinking with Canadians?

    As with the ridiculous "Czechia", they don't do this in their own language; why do they do it in ours?



    https://smartvatten.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/tilastokeskus-artikkelikuva-300x130.png



    https://cdn.hssmedia.fi/jobben/company_logo/statistikcentralen-20160222084034.png

    It’s all part of the ongoing stultification – er, sorry, enstupidification?:

    – WW (formerly Weight Watchers; and, no, it’s not an acronym
    – EUR-Lex
    – Ryanair
    – Mastercard, like Prince Nelson once upon a time, ia now an unpronouncable symbol

    And so on…

    It’s a confluence of several things, and one day I will probably finish my book about the exponential acceleration of the degradation of language and effective communication in recent years due to historically unprecendented changes in technology and demography (language has of course always changed, but never like it is now!). The most salient causes, though, include:

    1) Short Attention Span Theatre: Twitter, texting, and such make proper typing more difficult (because phones have tiny, shitty keyboards and the media encourage lazy abbreviations like b4, l8, bcuz, and such.

    2) Every Man a Writer: For a long time many stupid people seldom wrote, and that was just as well, since stupid people cannot master writing. Now every illiterate Negro in Chad and every savage cholo in Miami has a smartphone; as their writings proliferate, others are exposed again and again to shitty writing until it becomes internalised by other idiots, young people who don’t know better, and others who just give up and assimilate to the stupidity.

    3) Kakistocracy: Corporations, government, and academia used to be run by smart people. Now they are run by clever fools, confidence artists, people chosen because they havw vaginas or brown skin, and so on. They are also now stuffed with those prone to flashy marketing, which is more important than ever to rule a people stupider than ever. Thus for titles in art, instead of The Posthumous Papers of the Pickwick Club we get American Dreamz (yes, I know that film was actually a quite brilliant satire of the very phenomenon about which I write, but the title is a good example); for pseudonyms instead of Publius we get Tekashi 6ix9ine, and so on.

    4) Style Without Substance (or, Baffle ‘Em With Bullshit): Polysyllabic word salad, ostentatious jargon, and downright nonsense words have replaced concise writing precisely because the writing has no underlying substance to concisely convey. Thus we get Sophie Lewis and Tanasy Coats hemorrhaging reams upon reams about “transitioning” (transition is a noun, not a verb; the perfectly sound verb “changing” is usually what is meant); their “lived experiences” (are there any other kind? – I suppose a corpse may be said to experience burial, but that’s straining the language); “white privilege” (privilege, like all abstact nouns, has no colour; one might write about “the privileges only white people have,” or some such, but even then only if any such existed in the way the writer pretends they do…and they don’t)…and so on. Pick up an academic paper anout he humanities, or any corporate white paper to be dazzled by more examples. Whether the writers are bemoaning “gendered heteronormativity” on campus or espousing “synergy in the technology space” from a skyscraper, they’re babbling nonsense all the same.

    From The Guardian‘s own guidelines:

    abbreviations and acronyms

    Do not use full points in abbreviations, or spaces between initials, including those in proper names: IMF, mph, eg, 4am, M&S, No 10, AN Wilson, WH Smith, etc.

    Use all capitals if an abbreviation is pronounced as the individual letters (an initialism): BBC, CEO, US, VAT, etc; if it is an acronym (pronounced as a word) spell out with initial capital, eg Nasa, Nato, Unicef, unless it can be considered to have entered the language as an everyday word, such as awol, laser and, more recently, asbo, pin number and sim card. Note that pdf and plc are lowercase.

    If an abbreviation or acronym is to be used more than once in a piece, put it in brackets at first mention: so Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), seasonal affective disorder (Sad); alternatively, use the abbreviation with a brief description, eg the conservation charity the RSPB. Remember that our international online readership will not necessarily be aware of even well-known UK abbreviations. If an organisation is mentioned only once, it is not necessary to give its abbreviation or acronym.

    Cap up single letters in such expressions as C-list, F-word, “the word assassin contains four Ss”, etc

    Cap up, lads, ‘fore the Acpo come ’round fer ye at 4am!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    pin number
     
    They allow redundancy?
  39. @Anonymous
    Maybe Finns are naturally conscientious and if they feel they can't support more children on their own, they don't have them, as opposed to Somalis, who keep having children whether they can support them or not(even better when white taxpayers do it for them). Combining this with the ability to follow current events and economic trends and you might have a recipe for declining birth rates.

    Finland's economy never recovered after the 2008 crash to the same extent as the rest of the Nordics. The English-language Finnish press is always full of doom-and-gloom stories about the economy. Also, if memory serves, Finland's birth rate really dropped when they experienced severe economic problems(I think it was the early 1990's), and it rose again after(though not to replacement levels).

    Finland’s economy never recovered after the 2008 crash to the same extent as the rest of the Nordics.

    In the West and Asia, rising wealth coincides with reduced fertility.

    Now we’re finding out that an economic slowdown coincides with reduced fertility?

    We can’t win.

  40. @Guy De Champlagne
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    This phenomenon, above all else, is why despair is a sin.

  41. Of course, taxation is so high because unemployable are numerous.

  42. In 2018 the TFR dropped even further to 1.4, the decline since 2010 has been the most rapid in Europe this decade, would be interesting to see if there are any Finns who could comment on what is going on.

  43. Let’s figure out how to blame Finland’s demographic death spiral on the Jooooooos!

  44. @Guy De Champlagne
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Yes, and the best lack children, while the worst have children at their expense.
    Goodbye, Finland.
    Tragic and unnecessary.

    • Replies: @Ragno
    Guess who's next?
    , @Corvinus
    "Yes, and the best lack children, while the worst have children at their expense."

    Who/Whom?

    "Goodbye, Finland."

    LOL, Finland is not going anywhere. They are not leaving. Why are you always so melodramatic?
  45. The Finnish should emulate the Israelis. Raise your birth rate if you want to survive as a people.

    There is successful propaganda that caring about that is racist and it’s immoral to have the will to survive as an ethnic group. Well, fight the propaganda.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "The Finnish should emulate the Israelis. Raise your birth rate if you want to survive as a people.'

    The Finnish are surviving as a people. Perhaps the Finns ought to follow in the footsteps of the Russians. Their government’s choice of aphrodisiac has been a combination of cash and propaganda. Since 2007, extra money has been given to parents on the birth of their second and third children. A special prize – the Order of Parental Glory – was established in 2008.

    Socialism at its finest!
  46. @Tiny Duck
    The truth is that white "men" cannot satisfy their women. There is a reason more and more white females are bearing Children of Colored

    Why wound white girls or any girl want to bear the child of a weak wimpy man

    Contradicting your hypothesis is the fact that the white men who tend to father the most children are the least like thugs:

    – Amish
    – Orthodox Jews
    – Mormon beta dads

    The only exception is polygamist cult leaders like Warren Jeffs and David Koresh.

  47. I’d like to know the causal relationship between these ever decreasing trends in fertility and the blight of obesity that seems to be plaguing ever larger swaths of the developed world.
    Whenever these demographic topics come up, I always invariably wind up doing a quick analysis of the issue as it relates to my near relations. When I think of the demographic trends as they apply to my nieces and nephews, sons, their friends, coworkers, or just the young people I observe going about my daily life, I’m always shocked by the number for whom getting physical with the opposite sex has got to be very very difficult.
    This has got to be “a factor” in this lengthy equation that explains this demographic phenomenon, thought clearly not “the factor”. I’d be interested to know how big a factor.

  48. I am not sure that a slightly declining population is such a terrible thing. The problem comes if you allow immigrants to come in and replace the native population over time.

    • Replies: @j2
    "I am not sure that a slightly declining population is such a terrible thing. The problem comes if you allow immigrants to come in and replace the native population over time."

    Agree, it is just like that. In 1870 the population of Finland was about 2 million, now it is 5 million. It could just as well be 2 million, but one should not replace the population with immigrants as that practically always causes problems in only a few decades, like it did in Sweden.
  49. @Dieter Kief
    The northern welfare-state is in favor of families. What the Scandinavian welfare-state can't overcome though is the global economy. There aren't that many Nokias in Finland. And if such a big company declines, the welfare state can't fix the economic downfall, it can only dampen it. One way to react to such a downfall is to lower the birthrates. Perfectly reasonable.

    “One way to react to such a downfall is to lower the birthrates.”

    Except that white birthrates are dropping in almost every Western country, irrelevant of economic performance. Or a better way to put it is that they tank when the economy tanks, but never fully recover when it improves. The collapse of birthrates is a cultural problem, not an economic one.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?
  50. If the TFR can fall that far in a decade, then it can rise again to the same degree (theoretically).

  51. Finns ain’t what they used to be.

  52. @Wilkey
    "One way to react to such a downfall is to lower the birthrates."

    Except that white birthrates are dropping in almost every Western country, irrelevant of economic performance. Or a better way to put it is that they tank when the economy tanks, but never fully recover when it improves. The collapse of birthrates is a cultural problem, not an economic one.

    What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?

    • Replies: @BB753
    K-pop?
    , @Lot
    "What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?"

    http://66.media.tumblr.com/b998d543a01a6ffec3f4ba0f96105a4a/tumblr_njk00j5WvP1s4lolfo1_400.jpg
    , @Oddsbodkins
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwabyeong

    Korean culture is very strange.
    , @dfordoom

    What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?
     
    Different sources quote slightly different figures but Taiwan and Singapore seem to be in just as much trouble. Singapore's TFR may be as low as 0.84. That's embracing the death cult with a vengeance.
  53. Seems all those depressed Finns are just too depressed to have sex.

  54. Considering everything with the EU and economics, Finland may be now somewhat overpopulated.

  55. As a long time Finnish iSteve reader, maybe I should comment as I have some personal experience in this matter.

    I belive the rapid decline in Finnish birth rates can be mostly explained by two development. 1. Economic development favoring big cities. 2. Immigration from the Middle East and Africa.

    Nokia’s decline and the closing of paper mills took away a lot of manufacturing and R & D jobs from cities with 50 000-200 000 inhabitants that were locally important.

    Now everybody feels the need to move to Helsinki, but because of immigration, living in neighbourhoods with “good schools” is very expensive.

    I think this situation has resulted in some kind of culture shock for Finns, because this used to be a very egalitarian country, meaning upper middle class kids could go to school with poor kids. Finns have a hard time adopting the snobbishness that would be required to protect your family in a multicultural environment. This culture shock can explain the rapidity of the development.

  56. @Tiny Duck
    The truth is that white "men" cannot satisfy their women. There is a reason more and more white females are bearing Children of Colored

    Why wound white girls or any girl want to bear the child of a weak wimpy man

    “Why wound white girls or any girl want to bear the child of a weak wimpy man”

    Affirmative action for ducks?

  57. @Anonymous
    The figures are even lower in Helsinki, with the total fertility being 1.19 in 2017.

    Here is the ethnic breakdown of the figures, with the usual trend of certain groups far outpacing the native population with their fertility rates.

    https://ulkomaalaistaustaisethelsingissa.fi/en/content/birth-rate

    Those fertility statistics from Helsinki are inexplicable when one considers the relative beauty of women from Helsinki and women from outside Helsinki having children in Helsinki.

    https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/theres-controversy-in-finland-after-the-miss-helsinki-2017-winner-ended-up-being-an-eh-looking-nigerian-lady/

  58. @Enochian
    And now we face - the end of the Finnish.

    The Finnish Finish, you’re saying?

  59. Recently Steve had an article about a small Finnish town having been established, by whatever procedure, as the happiest place on earth. The welcome polemic upshot was that the place was so remarkably undiverse, one more time demonstrating how non-diversity is a precondition for community welfare and happiness.

    Now this: Happy Finns are not having babies. So, could it be that white contentedness and reasonableness in modern advanced societies stands in the way of reproducing? After all, there is an element of craziness in fucking generally, and of unreasonableness in becoming a parent.

    Just asking.

  60. @Lot
    Wow the degree of Jewish control over Finland has really gone up since 2005. Who knew?

    http://darkroom-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/12/AFP_Getty-455453645-760x506.jpg

    America won WW2, and consequently American politics and culture have had no influence on European countries.

  61. @Tyrion 2
    What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?

    K-pop?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Can anyone adequately explain how the Korean male ideal became so feminized? I haven't known many Korean men, but the ones I have known have been industrious, tall, and decently handsome to my admittedly heterosexual male eye. If I were a woman, they'd seem like quite good marriage material. But Korean girls idolize guys who look like women in drag. What gives?
  62. @Dieter Kief
    The northern welfare-state is in favor of families. What the Scandinavian welfare-state can't overcome though is the global economy. There aren't that many Nokias in Finland. And if such a big company declines, the welfare state can't fix the economic downfall, it can only dampen it. One way to react to such a downfall is to lower the birthrates. Perfectly reasonable.

    Finnish birthrates were higher when Finns were poor farmers.

  63. @AndrewR
    Uh... you are wayyyy too triggered over this.

    Czechia : Česko* :: Slovakia : Slovensko**

    * What Czechs call their own country

    **What Slovaks call their own country

    [Slovenia in Slovenian is Slovenija]

    Monkey languages.

  64. @Anonymous
    No doubt built by the 'Beaker Folk' out of ancestral, almost genetic, engrained habit.

    Such massive earthworks are always the signature of Steppe peoples, in the same way as fans are the signatures of beavers.

    The Bell Beaker culture died out roughly 1.5 millennia before that thing was constructed. They were never really steppe people.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Oh yes they were!
  65. The internet is turning people, especially younger people, into zombies. That’s probably a bigger factor than any of the political or economic ones. Which still matter.

  66. • Replies: @Lot
    "South Korea’s fertility rate set to hit record low of 0.96"

    And a decent share of the 0.96 are Korean men with SE Asian brides.
    , @Perspective
    That article is written in typical Guardian style;

    The status of women in South Korea, a deeply patriarchal society, is a major driver of the trend, along with worsening job prospects for young people and rising property prices. Women are getting married and having children later in life, if at all, for fear of being denied promotions and facing discrimination at work.
     
    The UK and Sweden are basically matriarchal societies and they have sub-replacement fertility rates. Did this not occur to them or do they still erroneously believe that the UK is a patriarchal society?

    He suggested government housing subsidies for young couples, aggressively tackling the gender discrimination faced by new mothers and removing the stigma associated with single-parent households.
     
    Yeah, because that has worked so well in the West at reversing low TFR.

    I'm somewhat surprised, in an amused way, that the Guardian didn't advocate more immigration to South Korea.
  67. @Anonymous
    The figures are even lower in Helsinki, with the total fertility being 1.19 in 2017.

    Here is the ethnic breakdown of the figures, with the usual trend of certain groups far outpacing the native population with their fertility rates.

    https://ulkomaalaistaustaisethelsingissa.fi/en/content/birth-rate

    Are you sure these are accurate? The Finnish TFR has been around 1.2 for the past 20 years, if it is.

    In order to be raised to 1.7, that would mean a disastrous amount of Somali and Arab children are being born.

    I’m sure its lower than the national average, but 1.2 seems very low.

  68. Birth rates are falling everywhere except for the worst places like SS Africa, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc.

    Even the Duggar and Bates families are not seeing the same productivity in the second generation.

    Each family had 19 kids. I had hoped that each of the 19 would have 19 so that each has 361 grandchildren.

    But on current trends, I don’t think either family will exceed 50 grandchildren in the end.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The Duggars are no great asset to the survival of Whites as Whites in America. Success depends on smart people having reasonably large families they can and will properly educate, in the real sense of the word. I've seen zero race consciousness from any Duggar.

    Have three or four kids and have them understand the truth of race and the importance of solidarity and being pro-White in a sane way, not doing stupid or destructive things. Join a church with few or no nonwhites if that's your thing. They will have to learn about how to keep quiet to get through academia and the workplace.
  69. It’s completely normal and natural that birth rates decline in advanced and wealthy societies like Finland. What’s unnatural and wrong is to try to continue having demographic growth through mass third world immigration. Given the challenges of climate change and the fact that technological advances will make low-skill labour less necessary, it is high time for people on the right to start rejecting neo-liberal growth-at-all-costs and to instead embrace the concept of a steady state economy or even de-growth (décroissance). The intellectual founding father of the identitarian movement in Europe, Alain de Benoist, wrote an excellent book advocating décroissance.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Given the challenges of climate change and the fact that technological advances will make low-skill labour less necessary, it is high time for people on the right to start rejecting neo-liberal growth-at-all-costs and to instead embrace the concept of a steady state economy or even de-growth (décroissance).
     
    Apart from the climate change thing (climate change is so obviously a scam it's not worth considering) I do have some sympathy for the idea that slightly lower populations might be a good thing. I can certainly see many obvious benefits.

    The problem is that populations would have to be be reduced very very gradually otherwise you're going to have massive economic dislocation. So a TFR of around 2.05 (just below replacement levels) would be fine.

    But when you have a TFR of 0.96 like South Korea you're talking about rapid and almost certainly irreversible demographic collapse along with a dramatically ageing population. That is not a survivable proposition for any nation.
  70. Exclude Sub Saharan Africa, and the rest of the entire world combined is below replacement :

    The world weighted average is 2.42. Exclude SS-Africa, and it drops to about 2.0 or even a hair lower.

    Afghanistan is a peculiar pocket, but is too small to move the needle at the world level.

  71. The girls there are nice looking. There should be high fertility.

  72. @Tyrion 2
    South Korea's fertility rate set to hit record low of 0.96

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/03/south-koreas-fertility-rate-set-to-hit-record-low

    “South Korea’s fertility rate set to hit record low of 0.96”

    And a decent share of the 0.96 are Korean men with SE Asian brides.

  73. Anon[538] • Disclaimer says:

    I don’t know why so many people are obsessed with adding to the population. Most countries on this planet don’t grow enough food to sustain their own citizens, and they have to import food. Egypt is a good example of this. Their population has grown dramatically in the last few decades, but they have little usable farmland.

    Only a very small number of countries are food exporters on a large scale. If these countries have bad weather years at the same time, or have prolonged droughts–which do occur from time to time–most of the world is going to have famine.

    We need smaller populations in nearly all countries to have a healthy planet that isn’t tettering on the brink of disaster. For those who worry about a drop in innovative genius if we have a smaller world population, how many people in any country actually contribute something new? Only a small percentage does. The US in the 1800s was filled with inventors despite having a small population. What innovators and inventors need more than anything is the freedom and opportunity to be able to create.

    • Replies: @Guy De Champlagne
    I agree we should have smaller, higher quality populations but that's not what's happening. Not across countries certainly and not generally within them.
    , @ken
    "We need smaller populations in nearly all countries to have a healthy planet that isn’t tettering on the brink of disaster."- Malthusian crap that never seems to occur.
  74. @YetAnotherAnon
    "Curiously, 5+ births have gone from <4% of all births in 1990 to 5% of all births in 2017"

    The headscarf and pushchair brigade are in Helsinki too, just not yet in Oslo quantity. Helsinki is still a lovely city to walk round, partly because it's still very Finnish, where so many European cities feature the same non-European minority groups*. But outside the centre women in headscarves with kids and strollers are not a rare sight.

    Pity, it's a lovely country, but middle class Finns seem pretty pozzed. Ideal job seems to be "something with the UN".


    * see the 2018 London homicides list - fewer and fewer native victims, though there's a continuing toll of the elderly poor who didn't get out in time.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46128268

    Anon253’s link shows the average Helsinki Somali has 3.5 TFR, while Finn women it is one third of this.

    So there’s your rebound in big families.

    • Replies: @Clyde

    Anon253’s link shows the average Helsinki Somali has 3.5 TFR, while Finn women it is one third of this.
     
    40,000 Somalis in Finland and they are cranking up that heat to Kingdom Come 9 months a year. And the average yellow vest Finn taxpayers is paying for it. Imagining myself as a Somali .... I am thinking BumFunk Finland is the last place (via life's immigration lottery) I want to land. I will be pining to somehow, some way to crash myself into the UK, preferably London. With max bennies galore there and lower temps.
    This ongoing Kamala Harris stylized invasion of the European founded world sucks. By this I mean USA, Canada, Europe, Australia and NZ.
  75. Just as an aside – remember annual figures for total period fertility rate fluctuate quite a lot (even looking a portions of a few years), so can be more noise than signal – eventually, we will look at cohort total fertility rates to see the actual results.

    For example, in Russia there was from 1993, a rapid decline in total period fertility rate (which falls within some years later to 1,2).

    But cohort fertility rate will never have been nearly this low – what happened was the total fertility rate decline was exaggerated by “tempo effect” of raising age of childbirth as couples were delaying due to external economic conditions (they can nowadays attempt to adjust for this by applying “Bongaarts and Feeney formula”).

    In Western media, there was a lot of discussion about “Russia will be uninhabited soon” from observing the unadjusted total period fertility rate, when the severity of what they were seeing was being exaggerated by “tempo effect”.

    Interestingly though, within the Russian expert community, this also exaggerated the extent to which fertility rates were believed to be “coupled” to economic and political conditions, and to government assistance. People were delaying partly because of the economic situation – so in the data the total period fertility rate was temporarily very strongly “coupled” to economic conditions and government assistance like maternity capital.

    Cohort fertility rate is likely a lot less “coupled” to economic conditions and government programs like maternity capital and preferential mortgages (both of which impact more significantly just timing of childbirth).

  76. @Tyrion 2
    What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?

    “What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?”

    • LOL: Tyrion 2
  77. @AndrewR
    Uh... you are wayyyy too triggered over this.

    Czechia : Česko* :: Slovakia : Slovensko**

    * What Czechs call their own country

    **What Slovaks call their own country

    [Slovenia in Slovenian is Slovenija]

    U.S.A.*
    Insufferable Polyglot Shithole**

    *What Africans, Chinese, Hindoos, Vietnamese, Arabs, Guatemalans, Mexicans, Dominicans, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, Panamanians, Ecuadorians, Colombians, Venezuelans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Laotians, Cambodians, Filipinos, Bolivians, Peruvians, Russians, Armenians, Jews, Haitians, Bahamians, Malaysians, Indonesians, Kazakhs, Turks, Iranians, Cubans, Taiwanese, Koreans, and, now, Japanese (organising their closets – another job Americans just won’t do!) call their own country.

    **What actual Americans now call their own former country.

  78. If there is one people I would like not to disappear, it is the Finns. They never harmed anyone, they are happy (or depressed) in their frozen forests.

  79. @Dieter Kief
    The problem is not at all that of falling birthrates, the problem is what happens next. -
    Is the natural beauty and the economic stability which follows the falling birthrates a societal status, which is self-sufficient? Or one who seeks redemption (or, less dramatic: a solution) by growing nationally by other means (migrants, for example)?

    The problem is dependency ratio, and government attempt to resolve this by unfiltered immigration.

    By itself – if we ignore dependency ratio for a minute – there is a mix of positive and negatives to an ageing and smaller, or at least non-expanding) population like Japan, in which unfiltered immigration is not used as a solution to correct the population decline.

    Positively, there is a benefit to increasing per capita GDP growth (as the same capital base divided by less).

    With a certain configuration of aging population pyramid, crime rates will fall rapidly, other things equal, as the majority of crime is by young adults.

    At schools (as happened in Russia in the last years), there is less overcrowding and possibility for better student to teacher ratios in the classroom.

    It becomes easier, ceteris paribus, for young people (born in the small cohorts) to get good jobs, as the job to applicant ratio for graduates improves. Overall there is downward pressure on unemployment rates (and upward pressure on wages).

    There is a better situation in the housing market, and housing should be more affordable ceteris paribus.

    And there is much more political stability and even more conservative politics and voting patterns, with an aging population. For some countries, this “political stability” is less a problem anyway though (I doubt it is relevant to Finland).

    All this is of course ignoring the problem of the increasing dependency ratio of aging population configurations. This can be partly ameliorated by raising pension ages, but this is extremely unpopular for politicians.

    There’s also the fact that it can result in a decline in a countries’ net power,other things equal.

    And the upward pressure on wages, is another topic which can be interpreted differently (as good or as bad) depending on if you are employee or employer.

    • Replies: @Guy De Champlagne
    But surely the retirement system is going to have to be rejiggered at some point so that the dependency ratio can allow for an aging population. You can't expect to keep growing forever and ever. The US is kinda of lucky in that so much of the social spending is wasteful health care expenditures and so can be made to go much farther for the same money.
  80. The economy took a beating when the iPhone did in Nokia,

    Blame Microsoft.

  81. @Tyrion 2
    What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwabyeong

    Korean culture is very strange.

  82. Finns need some Miracle Whip:

    • LOL: Dieter Kief
  83. @Clyde
    Finland can put on a bright face but losing Nokia is a heavy blow. New tech they come up with, China will duplicate and sell cheaper. Iceland crashed in 2008 but at least had and has huge fisheries that are export oriented.

    Note that Nokia is still around as a telco vendor, but of course no longer is the leader in handset manufacturing.

    Regarding the fall of Nokia, I’d say it started with a bit of hubris, too much middle management infighting and too little CEO paranoia about competition while the smartphone train was leaving the station; then choosing the wrong new CEO; then the new CEO choosing the wrong new strategy. Poof, gone.

    • Replies: @bomag
    Nicely put.

    Also a template for the decline of the USA:

    Regarding the fall of the traditional USA, I’d say it started with a bit of hubris, too much bureaucratic infighting and too little political leadership paranoia about competition while the demographic train was leaving the station; then choosing the wrong new president; then the new president choosing the wrong new strategy. Poof, gone.
  84. @YetAnotherAnon
    "Curiously, 5+ births have gone from <4% of all births in 1990 to 5% of all births in 2017"

    The headscarf and pushchair brigade are in Helsinki too, just not yet in Oslo quantity. Helsinki is still a lovely city to walk round, partly because it's still very Finnish, where so many European cities feature the same non-European minority groups*. But outside the centre women in headscarves with kids and strollers are not a rare sight.

    Pity, it's a lovely country, but middle class Finns seem pretty pozzed. Ideal job seems to be "something with the UN".


    * see the 2018 London homicides list - fewer and fewer native victims, though there's a continuing toll of the elderly poor who didn't get out in time.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46128268

    A significant proportion of London murder victims seem to Somali, yet it seems this group is heavily favoured for refugee resettlement in European countries.

  85. @Tyrion 2
    South Korea's fertility rate set to hit record low of 0.96

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/03/south-koreas-fertility-rate-set-to-hit-record-low

    That article is written in typical Guardian style;

    The status of women in South Korea, a deeply patriarchal society, is a major driver of the trend, along with worsening job prospects for young people and rising property prices. Women are getting married and having children later in life, if at all, for fear of being denied promotions and facing discrimination at work.

    The UK and Sweden are basically matriarchal societies and they have sub-replacement fertility rates. Did this not occur to them or do they still erroneously believe that the UK is a patriarchal society?

    He suggested government housing subsidies for young couples, aggressively tackling the gender discrimination faced by new mothers and removing the stigma associated with single-parent households.

    Yeah, because that has worked so well in the West at reversing low TFR.

    I’m somewhat surprised, in an amused way, that the Guardian didn’t advocate more immigration to South Korea.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    The article is painfully stupid. So is this BBC one, though it does add a few paragraphs of sense for balance - the BBC journalists really so try, even if their efforts are poor.

    Speak to South Koreans from older generations about the low fertility rate and the contrast in attitude is sharp. They see people like Yun-hwa as too individualistic and selfish.

    I start chatting to two women in their 60s enjoying the stream-side park that runs through central Seoul. One tells me she has three daughters in their 40s, but none has had children.

    "I try to instil patriotism and duty to the country with the kids, and of course I would love to see them continuing the line," she says. "But their decision is not to do that."

    "There should be that sense of duty to the country," her friend chips in. "We're very worried about the low fertility rate here."

    Sadly, they follow it with applauding a solipsistic shrike for broadcasting her own soured personality. She also intends to remain childless and relationshipless forever! Paging Whiskey.

    Yun-hwa and her contemporaries, the children of a globalised world, aren't persuaded by such arguments.

    When I put it to her that if she and her contemporaries don't have children her country's culture will die, she tells me that it's time for the male-dominated culture to go.

    "Must die," she says, breaking into English. "Must die!"

    Safe to say that young Korean men of Yun-hwa's generation are some of the most feminine in the world, while the older were actually very macho. It seems the older generation maintain the respect of the women of their age, while the younger generation inspire nothing but fear and loathing from their generation's women.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/stories-45201725

    , @Lot
    "The UK and Sweden are basically matriarchal societies and they have sub-replacement fertility rates."

    But somewhat better than Korea/Japan and more traditional southern/eastern europe.

    Feminism is bad for fertility for sure. But I do think it is the case that rolling it back to Italian, Spanish, or NE Asian levels wouldn't help, and might even hurt.

    Cultural change is hard and slow.

    What can be fast is cold hard cash via the tax system. Why not a deduction for children under 10 of $50,000? That would be worth about $12,000-$15,000 a year to upper middle class families, but nothing for those who don't pay taxes because of low/no income or because they cheat.
  86. Viktor Orban has announced a major new policy for affordable family formation:

    https://voiceofeurope.com/2019/02/orban-announces-major-family-protection-package-for-hungary/

    If you have:

    2 children — you get a preferential mortgage
    3 children or more — the government makes payments on your mortgage
    4 children — the mother receives permanent exemption from the personal income tax

    • Agree: Hail, TWS
    • Replies: @Hail
    V. Orban vs D. Trump

    Action vs. Tweet
    Principle vs. Expediency
    Nationalism vs. Kushnerism
    Pro-Family vs. Pro-Israel
    Got Wall built without much fanfare vs. No wall and much complaining
    Soft-spoken/serious but gets job done vs. Nonstop reality-TV politics
    For Natives vs. For highest Leeegull Immigration Levels 'Ever'.

    Contrast finished.

    Conclusion:

    Viktor Orban for President of the United States, 2020.

    , @J.Ross
    So practical and self-evidently good, it will not only help save Hungary but create pressure on globalist elites in other countries who are not doing this because they say it's just too complicated. This is why Soros is freaking out, and specifically yelling at his flying monkeys in the European Parliament.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3
    Oh this is priceless! Orban has earned my gratitude, again!
  87. @ danand
    http://www.unz.com/isteve/statistics-finland-total-fertility-rate-at-an-all-time-low/#comment-3031468

    Oi No Wei ;

    Finish Jews had it so bad during Finishjewicide, that not one, not two, but three Finish Jews were
    not only awarded, but also quite demonstratively refused to accept the German Iron Cross for their courage in fightning against Red Army:

    “Major Leo Skurnik was a medical officer who performed surgery under difficult field conditions. In accordance with accepted medical ethics, he also saved many wounded Germans, and was thus awarded the Iron Cross, which he refused to take.

    “I’ll wipe your asses with your medal,” Skurnik is said to have told the Germans.

    But religiously observant Finish Jews who fought along the Germans had it even worse:

    “Germans are even reported to have visited a field synagogue that was erected near the front line.

    “It was an unbelievable picture,” Rony Smolar, the son of Isak Smolar, the man who founded the synagogue, told a conference in the United States in 2008.

    “German soldiers in their uniforms, sat shoulder to shoulder with praying Jewish men.

    The Jewish worshippers noticed that some of the Germans even showed a certain respect for the Jewish service.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/museums/10682975/The-Jews-who-fought-for-Hitler-We-did-not-help-the-Germans.-We-had-a-common-enemy.html

    https://www.haaretz.com/1.5122760

    Never more.

  88. @Perspective
    That article is written in typical Guardian style;

    The status of women in South Korea, a deeply patriarchal society, is a major driver of the trend, along with worsening job prospects for young people and rising property prices. Women are getting married and having children later in life, if at all, for fear of being denied promotions and facing discrimination at work.
     
    The UK and Sweden are basically matriarchal societies and they have sub-replacement fertility rates. Did this not occur to them or do they still erroneously believe that the UK is a patriarchal society?

    He suggested government housing subsidies for young couples, aggressively tackling the gender discrimination faced by new mothers and removing the stigma associated with single-parent households.
     
    Yeah, because that has worked so well in the West at reversing low TFR.

    I'm somewhat surprised, in an amused way, that the Guardian didn't advocate more immigration to South Korea.

    The article is painfully stupid. So is this BBC one, though it does add a few paragraphs of sense for balance – the BBC journalists really so try, even if their efforts are poor.

    Speak to South Koreans from older generations about the low fertility rate and the contrast in attitude is sharp. They see people like Yun-hwa as too individualistic and selfish.

    I start chatting to two women in their 60s enjoying the stream-side park that runs through central Seoul. One tells me she has three daughters in their 40s, but none has had children.

    “I try to instil patriotism and duty to the country with the kids, and of course I would love to see them continuing the line,” she says. “But their decision is not to do that.”

    “There should be that sense of duty to the country,” her friend chips in. “We’re very worried about the low fertility rate here.”

    Sadly, they follow it with applauding a solipsistic shrike for broadcasting her own soured personality. She also intends to remain childless and relationshipless forever! Paging Whiskey.

    Yun-hwa and her contemporaries, the children of a globalised world, aren’t persuaded by such arguments.

    When I put it to her that if she and her contemporaries don’t have children her country’s culture will die, she tells me that it’s time for the male-dominated culture to go.

    “Must die,” she says, breaking into English. “Must die!”

    Safe to say that young Korean men of Yun-hwa’s generation are some of the most feminine in the world, while the older were actually very macho. It seems the older generation maintain the respect of the women of their age, while the younger generation inspire nothing but fear and loathing from their generation’s women.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/stories-45201725

    • Replies: @midtown
    Yes, I would agree that feminism is a big component of this, and the flip side to that is the feminization and extended adolescence of too many youngish men. Both attitudes need to improve.
    , @Perspective

    “Must die,” she says, breaking into English. “Must die!”
     
    OK, that quote made me laugh. I'm sure 4chan could come up with a few good memes from it. I picture her saying it like the kid on the shining; "redrum" "redrum".
  89. • Replies: @Lot
    Wow! I'm mancrushing hard for Orban. THAT is what I call natalism. Will Poland and Slovakia's nationalist governments step up and follow too?

    https://pics.onsizzle.com/wasup-r-orban-pls-xd-kaizer-1609309.png

    http://nemkutya.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/1382906072-orban-drogok.hatasai-nemkutya.jpg

    https://m.epochtimes.fr/assets/uploads/2018/12/ORBAN.jpg

    https://img.aws.la-croix.com/2017/07/18/1200863789/Benjamin-Netanyahu-cotes-Viktor-Orbandune-conference-parlement-Budapest-Hongrie-18-juillet-2017_0_1398_931.jpg
    , @Anonymous
    Uhhhh....does that include gypsy women?
  90. Who-Whom-Know-How to… Finish The Race :

  91. @Perspective
    That article is written in typical Guardian style;

    The status of women in South Korea, a deeply patriarchal society, is a major driver of the trend, along with worsening job prospects for young people and rising property prices. Women are getting married and having children later in life, if at all, for fear of being denied promotions and facing discrimination at work.
     
    The UK and Sweden are basically matriarchal societies and they have sub-replacement fertility rates. Did this not occur to them or do they still erroneously believe that the UK is a patriarchal society?

    He suggested government housing subsidies for young couples, aggressively tackling the gender discrimination faced by new mothers and removing the stigma associated with single-parent households.
     
    Yeah, because that has worked so well in the West at reversing low TFR.

    I'm somewhat surprised, in an amused way, that the Guardian didn't advocate more immigration to South Korea.

    “The UK and Sweden are basically matriarchal societies and they have sub-replacement fertility rates.”

    But somewhat better than Korea/Japan and more traditional southern/eastern europe.

    Feminism is bad for fertility for sure. But I do think it is the case that rolling it back to Italian, Spanish, or NE Asian levels wouldn’t help, and might even hurt.

    Cultural change is hard and slow.

    What can be fast is cold hard cash via the tax system. Why not a deduction for children under 10 of $50,000? That would be worth about $12,000-$15,000 a year to upper middle class families, but nothing for those who don’t pay taxes because of low/no income or because they cheat.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    Cultural change is hard and slow.

    What can be fast is cold hard cash via the tax system. Why not a deduction for children under 10 of $50,000? That would be worth about $12,000-$15,000 a year to upper middle class families, but nothing for those who don’t pay taxes because of low/no income or because they cheat.
     
    Well i don't know about the first part. Cultural change--certainly judged by TFR--sure came hard and fast from 1960-1975. (Really from 1965-1975). And on the culture side, continues zipping along. It's a radically different America than from when i was a kid.

    But i know what you're getting at. It will be hard to turn this disaster around ... though seizing Hollyweird studios and tech media would be a start.


    Your last paragraph on tax deductions nails it--absolutely spot on. Another provable lie from globohomo media--along with all their other HBD and immigration provable lies--is that it's impossible to significantly affect fertility with incentives. Nonsense. Thought experiment: families with a passel of kids are enjoying a comfortable zero-income-tax lifestyle, while singletons and the childless labor away under a 90% tax rate yielding a subsistence lifestyle. Yeah, the result's a no-brainer.

    The modern lifestyle is ridiculously comfortable. Kids are a spending decision. (Though one that scales far better than many people think. Have more kids trust me!) Women aren't even having the number of children they *want* to have. You don't have to open rape-impregnation centers to fix this. Start cancelling out the net cost of kids with tax incentives and see what happens. There is some equilibrium between what we have now in singletons in penury that gives you an above replacement TFR. Math isn't hard.
  92. @Dieter Kief
    The problem is not at all that of falling birthrates, the problem is what happens next. -
    Is the natural beauty and the economic stability which follows the falling birthrates a societal status, which is self-sufficient? Or one who seeks redemption (or, less dramatic: a solution) by growing nationally by other means (migrants, for example)?

    “Is the natural beauty and the economic stability which follows the falling birthrates” How does that happen?

  93. @BRF
    The Guardian suppresses a sneer at a Hungarian solution.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/10/viktor-orban-no-tax-for-hungarian-women-with-four-or-more-children

    Wow! I’m mancrushing hard for Orban. THAT is what I call natalism. Will Poland and Slovakia’s nationalist governments step up and follow too?

  94. Steve, excellent juxaposition of posts.

    The uber point is that being part of a larger, coherent, confident community–a nation–is good for fertility. Israel has that. Finland has lost that.

    Finnish men could turn this around pretty easily:

    — Declare Finland a Finnish State, the homeland of the Finnish people.

    Immigration
    — End all immigration of non-Finns
    — Expel all immigrants and their dependents.
    You could screen on ethnic-Europeans who are in there under Schengen and others based on skills. But it’s critical to immediately get rid of all the Somalis, Arabs, Kurds, etc.
    — “Encourage” emmigration of any non-ethnic-European 2nd+ generation natives. Offer “voluntary” buyouts with the message that involuntary explusions will follow.
    — Encourage Finnish Jews to make aliyah. Finnish Russians to return to Russia. Finnish gypsies to get the hell out. (Pay ’em to leave!)

    Maleness\National Ownership
    — Mandatory military service for all ethnic-Finnish boys, who meet IQ, psych and criminal checks. Non-Finns exempt. Cultivate a high sense of defending the homeland. Stints of border patrolling. As well as lots of general training, search and rescue, outdoor competence, etc. (A male capability building and male bonding experience.)
    — All veterans are considered part of Finnish reserve. All are to keep their service weapon, safely stored in their homes.
    — Job preferences in government hiring and contracts for veterans.

    Ethno-Eugenic Fertility
    — Huge tax deductions for children from veterans (i.e. ethnic Finns of some baseline character). Essentially remove the tax burden from young Finn families. Non-Finns not eligible. Note these would be deductions–from income–not a welfare payment to low-income, non-working layabouts.
    — Appropriate family leave and other “family friendly” policies.
    — Adjust deductions and welfare policies to reach and maintain above replacement fertility for ethnic Finns. (In other words, you “just do it”. There is some set of policies where you make breeding desirable enough for ethnic Finns that they do it sufficiently. No half-measures, you adjust aggressively until you are there.)

    EU
    — Leave the Euro, restore the markka to enable an independent monetary policy.
    — But stay in the EU common market.
    — Limit Schengen (or leave) residency rights to EU citizens requested by industry. I.e. you want EU businesses to be able to run industries in Finland smoothly, but otherwise do not need random EU residents showing up.

    Further out
    — Push back toward patriarchy in voting. Ideally only voting by male headed households with children who are productively self-reliant. (Not on welfare, taking care of themselves.)

    I’m not Finnish, never been there, know nothing much about the place, so i can’t say anything intelligent about the large Swedish speaking minority. My rough guess is that you would try and “Finnishize” them. Treat them as ethnic Finns as long as they became “Finnish”–intermarried with Finns, spoke Finnish, etc. The idea is to move to a “one people” nation. Finns would know\figure out what the right approach would be.

    ~~~

    This basic policy suite:
    — Explicitly be a ethno-national state.
    — Stop immigration, send all undesirables you can back where they came from.
    — Cultivate male ethno-nationalist pride\duty–ownership of the nation.
    — Explicit ethno\eugenic fertility policies through tax system and welfare.
    works for most nations.

    This stuff isn’t rocket-science. It’s a matter of will–taking on the spew of globalist garbage, killing the Poz and regaining control of your nation. Out from under, the road back to national sanity is not a particularly complicated or difficult one.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    I'm not saying those policies are bad but I don't think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don't really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/126845/israels-bold-new-queen
    , @Lagertha

    Mandatory military service for all ethnic-Finnish boys
     
    There has been conscription since after WW2. All Finnish boys must serve about 1 year in the military when they turn 18 (19 if they completed their Bac education). They must serve before they turn 28. No girls/women are in the army.

    Unfortunately, Finland has been forced by the EU globalist overlords to take more and more MENA people every year. It is awful in that parallel and parasitic cultures are growing outside of Helsinki. Most of the male migrants complain that they are far from the city, but just like any city, Helsinki center is expensive. Most apartments are also owned, not rented.

    Finns are basically, clueless what is happening to their country, and a law was narrowly thwarted that would have encouraged children to rat-out their parents if they complained about migrants. I see packs of migrant men, every summer, preying on teenage girls. The summers in the Nordic countries are short, so everyone flocks to the parks and shoreline of major cities.

    The economy is very mediocre due to the same overlords forbidding centuries old business with Russia (and of course, all the bad decisions that others, here, mentioned).

    However, the well-connected are still able to shield themselves from the non-Finns, just like here, in the USA. Crime is up, and taxes are up and services are down/cut. This is why women have less children: taxes are high to support this large, growing underclass. Yet, the only thing keeping Finland from complete displacement may be because it has an unforgiving 7 month winter when it rains or snows. So far, that is the biggest complaint (and the food) from MENA people.

    Most of the MENA men work menial jobs (cab drivers and such) that do not support a large family, but they collect welfare benefits from the Finnish stooges. People feel cowed, but they also know they can't do anything about it. Here's an annoying vid I posted here some time ago.

    Https://youtu.be/ENXLHkJf4jk
  95. @AnotherDad
    Steve, excellent juxaposition of posts.

    The uber point is that being part of a larger, coherent, confident community--a nation--is good for fertility. Israel has that. Finland has lost that.

    Finnish men could turn this around pretty easily:

    -- Declare Finland a Finnish State, the homeland of the Finnish people.

    Immigration
    -- End all immigration of non-Finns
    -- Expel all immigrants and their dependents.
    You could screen on ethnic-Europeans who are in there under Schengen and others based on skills. But it's critical to immediately get rid of all the Somalis, Arabs, Kurds, etc.
    -- "Encourage" emmigration of any non-ethnic-European 2nd+ generation natives. Offer "voluntary" buyouts with the message that involuntary explusions will follow.
    -- Encourage Finnish Jews to make aliyah. Finnish Russians to return to Russia. Finnish gypsies to get the hell out. (Pay 'em to leave!)

    Maleness\National Ownership
    -- Mandatory military service for all ethnic-Finnish boys, who meet IQ, psych and criminal checks. Non-Finns exempt. Cultivate a high sense of defending the homeland. Stints of border patrolling. As well as lots of general training, search and rescue, outdoor competence, etc. (A male capability building and male bonding experience.)
    -- All veterans are considered part of Finnish reserve. All are to keep their service weapon, safely stored in their homes.
    -- Job preferences in government hiring and contracts for veterans.

    Ethno-Eugenic Fertility
    -- Huge tax deductions for children from veterans (i.e. ethnic Finns of some baseline character). Essentially remove the tax burden from young Finn families. Non-Finns not eligible. Note these would be deductions--from income--not a welfare payment to low-income, non-working layabouts.
    -- Appropriate family leave and other "family friendly" policies.
    -- Adjust deductions and welfare policies to reach and maintain above replacement fertility for ethnic Finns. (In other words, you "just do it". There is some set of policies where you make breeding desirable enough for ethnic Finns that they do it sufficiently. No half-measures, you adjust aggressively until you are there.)

    EU
    -- Leave the Euro, restore the markka to enable an independent monetary policy.
    -- But stay in the EU common market.
    -- Limit Schengen (or leave) residency rights to EU citizens requested by industry. I.e. you want EU businesses to be able to run industries in Finland smoothly, but otherwise do not need random EU residents showing up.

    Further out
    -- Push back toward patriarchy in voting. Ideally only voting by male headed households with children who are productively self-reliant. (Not on welfare, taking care of themselves.)

    I'm not Finnish, never been there, know nothing much about the place, so i can't say anything intelligent about the large Swedish speaking minority. My rough guess is that you would try and "Finnishize" them. Treat them as ethnic Finns as long as they became "Finnish"--intermarried with Finns, spoke Finnish, etc. The idea is to move to a "one people" nation. Finns would know\figure out what the right approach would be.

    ~~~

    This basic policy suite:
    -- Explicitly be a ethno-national state.
    -- Stop immigration, send all undesirables you can back where they came from.
    -- Cultivate male ethno-nationalist pride\duty--ownership of the nation.
    -- Explicit ethno\eugenic fertility policies through tax system and welfare.
    works for most nations.

    This stuff isn't rocket-science. It's a matter of will--taking on the spew of globalist garbage, killing the Poz and regaining control of your nation. Out from under, the road back to national sanity is not a particularly complicated or difficult one.

    I’m not saying those policies are bad but I don’t think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don’t really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/126845/israels-bold-new-queen

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I also think that you don’t really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?
     
    If most Israeli girls look like Barbra Streisand, then her victory was inevitable. And, maybe Jews just like their Titis.

    Has she done her military service yet? Does the Swoosie-with-the-Uzi effect help or hurt Israel in the international pageants?

    , @Guy De Champlagne
    I think Steve has a theory about Israeli jews do a limited number of high profile pro black actions relating to ethiopian jews to help win support from american jews and distract from the whole ethnic cleansing of muslims and christians thing. The ethiopian jews are basically Israelis black friends that they get to use to show off how great they are to people with ridiculous enough belief systems to buy into it.
    , @Lot
    2017 didn't have any black contestants.

    https://pageantsnews.com/en/news/international-contests/miss-world/4475-miss-israel-2017-meet-the-candidates
    , @AnotherDad

    I’m not saying those policies are bad but I don’t think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don’t really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?
     

    Seriously?

    North Korea isn't an ethno-nationalist state, it's a impoverished loony heriditary commie dictatorship whose national propaganda is aimed against their own ethnic kin across the border. Did i say "impoverished"? They aren't having two kids because they want to keep going out three nights a week and vacationing in Cancun, they are having two kids ... cause that's all they can afford. Two's actually pretty impressive under their conditions.

    China? Really? The Chinese government had the dramatically anti-natal one-child policy up until a few years ago.

    Iran is at least interesting. But it's not ethno-nationalist, it's an Islamic dictatorship state. And it had a huge population boom, with the population more than doubling since the revolution. Now is crowded. Lots of young people are sick of the islamic dictatorship. And it has slammed into the demographic transition.

    If you actually want a test case Hungary. Orban's been in power (round 2) 8 or 9 years now and the TFR has moved all of about 20% (1.25 to 1.5). If he or his party could actually stay in power a generation, really put in place policies similar to mine and not see the TFR recover then you'd have a point. Of course, it's hard to get a fair test, because globohomo is relentless and hates nationalists being in power anywhere.

    ~~~

    Israel. My comment wasn't about Israel, but you're right i don't know much about it. (Never been there. Only know a couple Israeli guys. Don't sit around studying it.) I know the situation--and the population--there is complex.

    That said, you're argument--a black beauty queen--is ridiculous. That means .... nothing. That's the cheesiest most meaningless version of PC virtue signalling. What has the nation actually done with blacks? Tried to keep them out and send the ones there home!

    Sure the Israeli TFR has some gotchas. A big blob are these Haredi welfare parasites. Still, even outside of these parasites, Jewish TFR is solid--solidly above replacement. That's unique among the white population of any white nation. The logical conclusion is that's Israeli Jews have a sense of identity and purpose and the nation's elite is on their side. Ethno-nationalism.

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3
    Non-representative sample. Your citation is at best statistically inaccurate and at worst statistically inaccurate and unethical.
    , @dfordoom

    but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?
     
    This is what people who blame the Jews for everything overlook. The poz is going to destroy Israel just as certainly as it's going to destroy western nations.
  96. @AnonFinn
    Not so curious.
    1990: the somalis and muslims started flowing in.

    Btw 2018 is even worse, closer to 47,5 k, I think.

    Not so curious.
    1990: the somalis and muslims started flowing in.

    Urban Minnesotans seem less worked-up than other places about Somalis because they arrived at the same time as native black welfare refugees from Illinois and other neighboring states, who turned the largest city into “Murderapolis”. (Thankfully, mostly each other.)

    In comparison, the Somalis appear almost benign. And, as with most tight-family immigrant groups, their violent crime tends to be internal.

  97. @Tyrion 2
    I'm not saying those policies are bad but I don't think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don't really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/126845/israels-bold-new-queen

    I also think that you don’t really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    If most Israeli girls look like Barbra Streisand, then her victory was inevitable. And, maybe Jews just like their Titis.

    Has she done her military service yet? Does the Swoosie-with-the-Uzi effect help or hurt Israel in the international pageants?

  98. @Anon
    I don't know why so many people are obsessed with adding to the population. Most countries on this planet don't grow enough food to sustain their own citizens, and they have to import food. Egypt is a good example of this. Their population has grown dramatically in the last few decades, but they have little usable farmland.

    Only a very small number of countries are food exporters on a large scale. If these countries have bad weather years at the same time, or have prolonged droughts--which do occur from time to time--most of the world is going to have famine.

    We need smaller populations in nearly all countries to have a healthy planet that isn't tettering on the brink of disaster. For those who worry about a drop in innovative genius if we have a smaller world population, how many people in any country actually contribute something new? Only a small percentage does. The US in the 1800s was filled with inventors despite having a small population. What innovators and inventors need more than anything is the freedom and opportunity to be able to create.

    I agree we should have smaller, higher quality populations but that’s not what’s happening. Not across countries certainly and not generally within them.

  99. @Stan Adams
    In Miami, the Port of Miami is now called PortMiami (one word). The Historical Museum of South Florida is now HistoryMiami (also one word). Miami Jai-Alai is now Casino Miami. The Miami Metrozoo is now Zoo Miami.

    Where will it end?

    There is something called “Education Minnesota”. I think it’s the local NEA. Or AFT. Whatever.

    • Replies: @Another Canadian
    We changed Revenue Canada to the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA), so that's progress!
  100. @Dmitry
    The problem is dependency ratio, and government attempt to resolve this by unfiltered immigration.

    By itself - if we ignore dependency ratio for a minute - there is a mix of positive and negatives to an ageing and smaller, or at least non-expanding) population like Japan, in which unfiltered immigration is not used as a solution to correct the population decline.

    Positively, there is a benefit to increasing per capita GDP growth (as the same capital base divided by less).

    With a certain configuration of aging population pyramid, crime rates will fall rapidly, other things equal, as the majority of crime is by young adults.

    At schools (as happened in Russia in the last years), there is less overcrowding and possibility for better student to teacher ratios in the classroom.

    It becomes easier, ceteris paribus, for young people (born in the small cohorts) to get good jobs, as the job to applicant ratio for graduates improves. Overall there is downward pressure on unemployment rates (and upward pressure on wages).

    There is a better situation in the housing market, and housing should be more affordable ceteris paribus.

    And there is much more political stability and even more conservative politics and voting patterns, with an aging population. For some countries, this "political stability" is less a problem anyway though (I doubt it is relevant to Finland).

    -

    All this is of course ignoring the problem of the increasing dependency ratio of aging population configurations. This can be partly ameliorated by raising pension ages, but this is extremely unpopular for politicians.

    There's also the fact that it can result in a decline in a countries' net power,other things equal.

    And the upward pressure on wages, is another topic which can be interpreted differently (as good or as bad) depending on if you are employee or employer.

    But surely the retirement system is going to have to be rejiggered at some point so that the dependency ratio can allow for an aging population. You can’t expect to keep growing forever and ever. The US is kinda of lucky in that so much of the social spending is wasteful health care expenditures and so can be made to go much farther for the same money.

  101. @Tyrion 2
    I'm not saying those policies are bad but I don't think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don't really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/126845/israels-bold-new-queen

    I think Steve has a theory about Israeli jews do a limited number of high profile pro black actions relating to ethiopian jews to help win support from american jews and distract from the whole ethnic cleansing of muslims and christians thing. The ethiopian jews are basically Israelis black friends that they get to use to show off how great they are to people with ridiculous enough belief systems to buy into it.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    No, they're normal full citizens and soon enough there'll be none left in Ethiopia and all in Israel. Naturally, they help with PR, but then, judging by the fact that every group I saw of national service people would have one among them, I think they're pretty glad to help.
  102. @Reg Cæsar
    There is something called "Education Minnesota". I think it's the local NEA. Or AFT. Whatever.

    We changed Revenue Canada to the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA), so that’s progress!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    And on their first day in office, Trudeau's(or rather Gerald Butts') government rebranded the Department of Foreign Affairs to Global Affairs Canada, so Canada now comes after the rest of the world in order of precedence. I also assume the f-word was simply too othering.
  103. @Lot
    "The UK and Sweden are basically matriarchal societies and they have sub-replacement fertility rates."

    But somewhat better than Korea/Japan and more traditional southern/eastern europe.

    Feminism is bad for fertility for sure. But I do think it is the case that rolling it back to Italian, Spanish, or NE Asian levels wouldn't help, and might even hurt.

    Cultural change is hard and slow.

    What can be fast is cold hard cash via the tax system. Why not a deduction for children under 10 of $50,000? That would be worth about $12,000-$15,000 a year to upper middle class families, but nothing for those who don't pay taxes because of low/no income or because they cheat.

    Cultural change is hard and slow.

    What can be fast is cold hard cash via the tax system. Why not a deduction for children under 10 of $50,000? That would be worth about $12,000-$15,000 a year to upper middle class families, but nothing for those who don’t pay taxes because of low/no income or because they cheat.

    Well i don’t know about the first part. Cultural change–certainly judged by TFR–sure came hard and fast from 1960-1975. (Really from 1965-1975). And on the culture side, continues zipping along. It’s a radically different America than from when i was a kid.

    But i know what you’re getting at. It will be hard to turn this disaster around … though seizing Hollyweird studios and tech media would be a start.

    Your last paragraph on tax deductions nails it–absolutely spot on. Another provable lie from globohomo media–along with all their other HBD and immigration provable lies–is that it’s impossible to significantly affect fertility with incentives. Nonsense. Thought experiment: families with a passel of kids are enjoying a comfortable zero-income-tax lifestyle, while singletons and the childless labor away under a 90% tax rate yielding a subsistence lifestyle. Yeah, the result’s a no-brainer.

    The modern lifestyle is ridiculously comfortable. Kids are a spending decision. (Though one that scales far better than many people think. Have more kids trust me!) Women aren’t even having the number of children they *want* to have. You don’t have to open rape-impregnation centers to fix this. Start cancelling out the net cost of kids with tax incentives and see what happens. There is some equilibrium between what we have now in singletons in penury that gives you an above replacement TFR. Math isn’t hard.

    • Replies: @Lot
    "Cultural change–certainly judged by TFR–sure came hard and fast from 1960-1975. (Really from 1965-1975). "

    Some of that was reversion back to the 1900-1945 trendline of increasing female education and work force participation. Another part was the pill and modern appliances reducing daily housework. Average age of first marriage is a good trendline to see how 1948-1965 was more of a belle epoque of egalitarian conservative prosperity than the end of a long conservative era.

    "seizing Hollyweird studios and tech media would be a start."

    Changing the Constitution to allow that isn't going to happen.

    On the other hand, why not spend $20 billion a year on wholesome and patriotic content creation and distribution? Voice of America and PBS, but run by GOP appointees. That's unlikely to happen either, but at least in the realm of possibility.

    $20 billion is enough for 10 big budget movies and 30 TV shows a year with commercial-free distribution online or cable. BBC and similar European channels are further precedent.
    , @Hail

    Cultural change–certainly judged by TFR–sure came hard and fast from 1960-1975. (Really from 1965-1975)
     
    What I find remarkable is how the fertility decline transcended national boundaries, cultural-linguistic divides, economic divides (capitalist vs. communist bloc countries both saw comparable declines at about the same time) all across the White world, all at the same time.

    Everyone was doing well into the mid 1960s. But by the mid 1970s, fertility had collapsed to wartime-like levels, sub-replacement, across the White West, where we have languished since. Only at the margins of the White world will we find outliers.

    Take Albania, who maintained above-replacement TFR for decades after the West (though I would not include Albanians as White-Westerners, anyway, being Muslims).

    Albania TFR snapshot:

    - 1960 to 1972: 5.6 (avg.)
    - 1972 to early 1980s: Transition from 5.2 to ~3.5 [note: core 1990s KLA militant birth cohorts]
    - early 1980s to early 1990s: Slow transition from 3.5 to 3.0
    - early 1990s to early 2000s: Roughly steady at ~2.5 (brief fall to 2.1 in 2000 following Bill Clinton's Kosovo War)
    - 2002-2017: Relatively steady at ~1.75 (range: 1.58 to 2.06)

    Even Albania's fertility declined substantially at just about the same time (1970s, fall from as high as 5.6 still in 1969 to 3.4 in 1981), if trailing the same trend in the West a little earlier and having a slower decline, only slipping into subreplacement by 2002.

    Albania, starting in the late 1980s, was/is a major source of emigrants to the West, though (cf. Switzerland's 'national' soccer team roster), which must be distorting the fertility picture a little, as it did in East Germany in the 1990s. Looking at their births-over-deaths figures for 1990 to 2017, Albania should have 4.2 million people today given zero migration. Their actual population in the late 2010s is circa 2.85 million (67.8% of the zero-outmigration-since-late-1980s figure).

    , @Reg Cæsar

    Math isn’t hard.
     
    It is for Barbie.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFh8WS0s8UQ
  104. Steve is fundamentally wrong and so are most of the commenters here thinking that the primary mover in reduced fertility is the economic well being of the native population.

    Look at Mexicans, Hondurans, Salvadorans, Somalis, and Haitians in high cost, highly urban environments such as Los Angeles, Miami, Minneapolis, New York City, Philadelphia, and Chicago. TFR among these groups with quite a bit less in household net income (including welfare and other benefits) is much higher than those of White or Asian households with far, far lower TFR but much higher household real wealth.

    This tracks with the experience of Muslims and Africans in France, the Netherlands, UK, Ireland, Germany, Denmark and Sweden, etc. All have much lower incomes and wealth, and much higher levels of fertility than the natives.

    Why does Israel alone have a higher TFR even among secular Jews? Why did the US have a much higher TFR in the late 1940s and 1950s?

    Its the male sexiness, stupid, to paraphrase Bill Clinton. A lot of returning military men who plausibly killed people in the War meant lots of male sexiness. Just as Israel turned around its fertility by its men being a lot, lot more attractive having plausibly killed a bunch of Palestinians or Lebanese or Hamas fighters in the very many recent military actions.

    Women crave killers, from Amanda Palmer, the common law wife of rockstar famous fantasy Writer Neil Gaiman (with at least one TV show based on his books in production — “American Gods”) to all those women sending love letters and bikini pics to that monster who killed his pregnant wife and little girls. Heck when a dude like Gaiman who has millions of adoring female fans who would be eager to supplant Ms. Palmer can’t keep his own woman from writing “love poems” to the surviving Tsarnaev Bomb Brother its pretty obvious how fertility lies.

    TFR is NOT a function of female attractiveness — that is shown by who has kids (hint its not the population with super hot chicks). It is a function of MALE sexiness — women choose even in highly patriarchal societies like Tunisia, or Iran. Both with below replacement level fertility. When men have both higher status and are seen as widely violent that is the route to female desire and pregnancy.

    If a wizard magically turned every White dude into a variant of John Gotti, or Whitey Bulger, or Sgt. York , the birth rate would rise significantly. Women don’t really care where and within what context violent killing of some other people occurred, just that it happened and the dudes are available.

    A falling TFR makes a wealthy country vulnerable to either outright invasion or immavasion, from Third World peoples who have quantity as their own quality, to quote Stalin. And TFR is based on male violence, from Mexico to Sub Saharan Africa. In order for men to be sexy enough for a YOUNG woman to bear his child, he either needs to be Tom Brady levels of looks, wealth, fame, and accomplishment. Or have a reputation for having been violent.

    Sure, the current system is male-oriented in that it reduces violent confrontations in which men are the general first-line losers, and our society is not a female fantasy like Game of Thrones, or HandMaid’s Tale (women tend to get off on that show). But it results in bitter harridans “settling and seething” with resentment for a soyboy at age 34 to have one fertility drug enhanced baby. If that. Meanwhile Juan may have gotten drunk and busted a beer bottle over Julio’s head causing the latter to expire back in Michoacan, but he’s knkocked up Maria at age 19 onwards and produced five kids.

    We will never solve this problem until we recognize that the overall goals and aims of women and men are mutually hostile and irreconcilable. Women want Game of Thrones in real life and men want Leave it to Beaver. The overall goal of women is to maximize their reproductive aims — kids by a few violent, top men they share and the rest of men off in some servitude. Men prefer a more egalitarian take where every man is paired up with some woman of roughly the same levels of attractiveness and status.

    To increase fertility in the West we need to: A. Effectively reduce women’s status by either simply reducing it or vastly increasing men’s; and B. Have most men be plausibly killers in some war.

  105. @AnotherDad
    Steve, excellent juxaposition of posts.

    The uber point is that being part of a larger, coherent, confident community--a nation--is good for fertility. Israel has that. Finland has lost that.

    Finnish men could turn this around pretty easily:

    -- Declare Finland a Finnish State, the homeland of the Finnish people.

    Immigration
    -- End all immigration of non-Finns
    -- Expel all immigrants and their dependents.
    You could screen on ethnic-Europeans who are in there under Schengen and others based on skills. But it's critical to immediately get rid of all the Somalis, Arabs, Kurds, etc.
    -- "Encourage" emmigration of any non-ethnic-European 2nd+ generation natives. Offer "voluntary" buyouts with the message that involuntary explusions will follow.
    -- Encourage Finnish Jews to make aliyah. Finnish Russians to return to Russia. Finnish gypsies to get the hell out. (Pay 'em to leave!)

    Maleness\National Ownership
    -- Mandatory military service for all ethnic-Finnish boys, who meet IQ, psych and criminal checks. Non-Finns exempt. Cultivate a high sense of defending the homeland. Stints of border patrolling. As well as lots of general training, search and rescue, outdoor competence, etc. (A male capability building and male bonding experience.)
    -- All veterans are considered part of Finnish reserve. All are to keep their service weapon, safely stored in their homes.
    -- Job preferences in government hiring and contracts for veterans.

    Ethno-Eugenic Fertility
    -- Huge tax deductions for children from veterans (i.e. ethnic Finns of some baseline character). Essentially remove the tax burden from young Finn families. Non-Finns not eligible. Note these would be deductions--from income--not a welfare payment to low-income, non-working layabouts.
    -- Appropriate family leave and other "family friendly" policies.
    -- Adjust deductions and welfare policies to reach and maintain above replacement fertility for ethnic Finns. (In other words, you "just do it". There is some set of policies where you make breeding desirable enough for ethnic Finns that they do it sufficiently. No half-measures, you adjust aggressively until you are there.)

    EU
    -- Leave the Euro, restore the markka to enable an independent monetary policy.
    -- But stay in the EU common market.
    -- Limit Schengen (or leave) residency rights to EU citizens requested by industry. I.e. you want EU businesses to be able to run industries in Finland smoothly, but otherwise do not need random EU residents showing up.

    Further out
    -- Push back toward patriarchy in voting. Ideally only voting by male headed households with children who are productively self-reliant. (Not on welfare, taking care of themselves.)

    I'm not Finnish, never been there, know nothing much about the place, so i can't say anything intelligent about the large Swedish speaking minority. My rough guess is that you would try and "Finnishize" them. Treat them as ethnic Finns as long as they became "Finnish"--intermarried with Finns, spoke Finnish, etc. The idea is to move to a "one people" nation. Finns would know\figure out what the right approach would be.

    ~~~

    This basic policy suite:
    -- Explicitly be a ethno-national state.
    -- Stop immigration, send all undesirables you can back where they came from.
    -- Cultivate male ethno-nationalist pride\duty--ownership of the nation.
    -- Explicit ethno\eugenic fertility policies through tax system and welfare.
    works for most nations.

    This stuff isn't rocket-science. It's a matter of will--taking on the spew of globalist garbage, killing the Poz and regaining control of your nation. Out from under, the road back to national sanity is not a particularly complicated or difficult one.

    Mandatory military service for all ethnic-Finnish boys

    There has been conscription since after WW2. All Finnish boys must serve about 1 year in the military when they turn 18 (19 if they completed their Bac education). They must serve before they turn 28. No girls/women are in the army.

    Unfortunately, Finland has been forced by the EU globalist overlords to take more and more MENA people every year. It is awful in that parallel and parasitic cultures are growing outside of Helsinki. Most of the male migrants complain that they are far from the city, but just like any city, Helsinki center is expensive. Most apartments are also owned, not rented.

    Finns are basically, clueless what is happening to their country, and a law was narrowly thwarted that would have encouraged children to rat-out their parents if they complained about migrants. I see packs of migrant men, every summer, preying on teenage girls. The summers in the Nordic countries are short, so everyone flocks to the parks and shoreline of major cities.

    The economy is very mediocre due to the same overlords forbidding centuries old business with Russia (and of course, all the bad decisions that others, here, mentioned).

    However, the well-connected are still able to shield themselves from the non-Finns, just like here, in the USA. Crime is up, and taxes are up and services are down/cut. This is why women have less children: taxes are high to support this large, growing underclass. Yet, the only thing keeping Finland from complete displacement may be because it has an unforgiving 7 month winter when it rains or snows. So far, that is the biggest complaint (and the food) from MENA people.

    Most of the MENA men work menial jobs (cab drivers and such) that do not support a large family, but they collect welfare benefits from the Finnish stooges. People feel cowed, but they also know they can’t do anything about it. Here’s an annoying vid I posted here some time ago.

  106. @Stan Adams
    In Miami, the Port of Miami is now called PortMiami (one word). The Historical Museum of South Florida is now HistoryMiami (also one word). Miami Jai-Alai is now Casino Miami. The Miami Metrozoo is now Zoo Miami.

    Where will it end?

    At least it’s not the “Port of Authority”, which always made me cringe.

  107. @AndrewR
    Uh... you are wayyyy too triggered over this.

    Czechia : Česko* :: Slovakia : Slovensko**

    * What Czechs call their own country

    **What Slovaks call their own country

    [Slovenia in Slovenian is Slovenija]

    Uh… you are wayyyy too triggered over this.

    Just like that lookout on the flying bridge of the Titanic. The ice isn’t that big, kid.

  108. @AnotherDad

    Cultural change is hard and slow.

    What can be fast is cold hard cash via the tax system. Why not a deduction for children under 10 of $50,000? That would be worth about $12,000-$15,000 a year to upper middle class families, but nothing for those who don’t pay taxes because of low/no income or because they cheat.
     
    Well i don't know about the first part. Cultural change--certainly judged by TFR--sure came hard and fast from 1960-1975. (Really from 1965-1975). And on the culture side, continues zipping along. It's a radically different America than from when i was a kid.

    But i know what you're getting at. It will be hard to turn this disaster around ... though seizing Hollyweird studios and tech media would be a start.


    Your last paragraph on tax deductions nails it--absolutely spot on. Another provable lie from globohomo media--along with all their other HBD and immigration provable lies--is that it's impossible to significantly affect fertility with incentives. Nonsense. Thought experiment: families with a passel of kids are enjoying a comfortable zero-income-tax lifestyle, while singletons and the childless labor away under a 90% tax rate yielding a subsistence lifestyle. Yeah, the result's a no-brainer.

    The modern lifestyle is ridiculously comfortable. Kids are a spending decision. (Though one that scales far better than many people think. Have more kids trust me!) Women aren't even having the number of children they *want* to have. You don't have to open rape-impregnation centers to fix this. Start cancelling out the net cost of kids with tax incentives and see what happens. There is some equilibrium between what we have now in singletons in penury that gives you an above replacement TFR. Math isn't hard.

    “Cultural change–certainly judged by TFR–sure came hard and fast from 1960-1975. (Really from 1965-1975). ”

    Some of that was reversion back to the 1900-1945 trendline of increasing female education and work force participation. Another part was the pill and modern appliances reducing daily housework. Average age of first marriage is a good trendline to see how 1948-1965 was more of a belle epoque of egalitarian conservative prosperity than the end of a long conservative era.

    “seizing Hollyweird studios and tech media would be a start.”

    Changing the Constitution to allow that isn’t going to happen.

    On the other hand, why not spend $20 billion a year on wholesome and patriotic content creation and distribution? Voice of America and PBS, but run by GOP appointees. That’s unlikely to happen either, but at least in the realm of possibility.

    $20 billion is enough for 10 big budget movies and 30 TV shows a year with commercial-free distribution online or cable. BBC and similar European channels are further precedent.

  109. @Tyrion 2
    I'm not saying those policies are bad but I don't think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don't really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/126845/israels-bold-new-queen
    • Replies: @Perspective
    The girl on the bottom row, second from the right, is the prettiest IMO.
  110. @Tyrion 2
    The article is painfully stupid. So is this BBC one, though it does add a few paragraphs of sense for balance - the BBC journalists really so try, even if their efforts are poor.

    Speak to South Koreans from older generations about the low fertility rate and the contrast in attitude is sharp. They see people like Yun-hwa as too individualistic and selfish.

    I start chatting to two women in their 60s enjoying the stream-side park that runs through central Seoul. One tells me she has three daughters in their 40s, but none has had children.

    "I try to instil patriotism and duty to the country with the kids, and of course I would love to see them continuing the line," she says. "But their decision is not to do that."

    "There should be that sense of duty to the country," her friend chips in. "We're very worried about the low fertility rate here."

    Sadly, they follow it with applauding a solipsistic shrike for broadcasting her own soured personality. She also intends to remain childless and relationshipless forever! Paging Whiskey.

    Yun-hwa and her contemporaries, the children of a globalised world, aren't persuaded by such arguments.

    When I put it to her that if she and her contemporaries don't have children her country's culture will die, she tells me that it's time for the male-dominated culture to go.

    "Must die," she says, breaking into English. "Must die!"

    Safe to say that young Korean men of Yun-hwa's generation are some of the most feminine in the world, while the older were actually very macho. It seems the older generation maintain the respect of the women of their age, while the younger generation inspire nothing but fear and loathing from their generation's women.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/stories-45201725

    Yes, I would agree that feminism is a big component of this, and the flip side to that is the feminization and extended adolescence of too many youngish men. Both attitudes need to improve.

  111. @Another Canadian
    We changed Revenue Canada to the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA), so that's progress!

    And on their first day in office, Trudeau’s(or rather Gerald Butts’) government rebranded the Department of Foreign Affairs to Global Affairs Canada, so Canada now comes after the rest of the world in order of precedence. I also assume the f-word was simply too othering.

  112. @AnotherDad

    Cultural change is hard and slow.

    What can be fast is cold hard cash via the tax system. Why not a deduction for children under 10 of $50,000? That would be worth about $12,000-$15,000 a year to upper middle class families, but nothing for those who don’t pay taxes because of low/no income or because they cheat.
     
    Well i don't know about the first part. Cultural change--certainly judged by TFR--sure came hard and fast from 1960-1975. (Really from 1965-1975). And on the culture side, continues zipping along. It's a radically different America than from when i was a kid.

    But i know what you're getting at. It will be hard to turn this disaster around ... though seizing Hollyweird studios and tech media would be a start.


    Your last paragraph on tax deductions nails it--absolutely spot on. Another provable lie from globohomo media--along with all their other HBD and immigration provable lies--is that it's impossible to significantly affect fertility with incentives. Nonsense. Thought experiment: families with a passel of kids are enjoying a comfortable zero-income-tax lifestyle, while singletons and the childless labor away under a 90% tax rate yielding a subsistence lifestyle. Yeah, the result's a no-brainer.

    The modern lifestyle is ridiculously comfortable. Kids are a spending decision. (Though one that scales far better than many people think. Have more kids trust me!) Women aren't even having the number of children they *want* to have. You don't have to open rape-impregnation centers to fix this. Start cancelling out the net cost of kids with tax incentives and see what happens. There is some equilibrium between what we have now in singletons in penury that gives you an above replacement TFR. Math isn't hard.

    Cultural change–certainly judged by TFR–sure came hard and fast from 1960-1975. (Really from 1965-1975)

    What I find remarkable is how the fertility decline transcended national boundaries, cultural-linguistic divides, economic divides (capitalist vs. communist bloc countries both saw comparable declines at about the same time) all across the White world, all at the same time.

    Everyone was doing well into the mid 1960s. But by the mid 1970s, fertility had collapsed to wartime-like levels, sub-replacement, across the White West, where we have languished since. Only at the margins of the White world will we find outliers.

    Take Albania, who maintained above-replacement TFR for decades after the West (though I would not include Albanians as White-Westerners, anyway, being Muslims).

    Albania TFR snapshot:

    – 1960 to 1972: 5.6 (avg.)
    – 1972 to early 1980s: Transition from 5.2 to ~3.5 [note: core 1990s KLA militant birth cohorts]
    – early 1980s to early 1990s: Slow transition from 3.5 to 3.0
    – early 1990s to early 2000s: Roughly steady at ~2.5 (brief fall to 2.1 in 2000 following Bill Clinton’s Kosovo War)
    – 2002-2017: Relatively steady at ~1.75 (range: 1.58 to 2.06)

    Even Albania’s fertility declined substantially at just about the same time (1970s, fall from as high as 5.6 still in 1969 to 3.4 in 1981), if trailing the same trend in the West a little earlier and having a slower decline, only slipping into subreplacement by 2002.

    Albania, starting in the late 1980s, was/is a major source of emigrants to the West, though (cf. Switzerland’s ‘national’ soccer team roster), which must be distorting the fertility picture a little, as it did in East Germany in the 1990s. Looking at their births-over-deaths figures for 1990 to 2017, Albania should have 4.2 million people today given zero migration. Their actual population in the late 2010s is circa 2.85 million (67.8% of the zero-outmigration-since-late-1980s figure).

    • Agree: Thea
  113. @BRF
    The Guardian suppresses a sneer at a Hungarian solution.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/10/viktor-orban-no-tax-for-hungarian-women-with-four-or-more-children

    Uhhhh….does that include gypsy women?

    • Replies: @BRF
    Do gypsies pay tax?
    , @Romanian
    Taxes are on thing. But the loans which are forgiven by the time the fourth child comes along will be a problem. We (Eastern Euros) have foreign watchdogs watching us like hawks for discrimination, especially against the gypsies, since they are our underclass minority. How do you funnel the loans to your own people while avoiding the appearance of discrimination? That is a problem. Even if you award the loans on the basis of keeping a steady job and paying your bills on time, which would weed out many gypsies, there will still be a mismatch. Not to mention that the banks may change their lending standards if they are sure the fine upstanding gentleman in front of them will have 4 kids and so his capacity for repayment is irrelevant.
  114. @Anon
    I don't know why so many people are obsessed with adding to the population. Most countries on this planet don't grow enough food to sustain their own citizens, and they have to import food. Egypt is a good example of this. Their population has grown dramatically in the last few decades, but they have little usable farmland.

    Only a very small number of countries are food exporters on a large scale. If these countries have bad weather years at the same time, or have prolonged droughts--which do occur from time to time--most of the world is going to have famine.

    We need smaller populations in nearly all countries to have a healthy planet that isn't tettering on the brink of disaster. For those who worry about a drop in innovative genius if we have a smaller world population, how many people in any country actually contribute something new? Only a small percentage does. The US in the 1800s was filled with inventors despite having a small population. What innovators and inventors need more than anything is the freedom and opportunity to be able to create.

    “We need smaller populations in nearly all countries to have a healthy planet that isn’t tettering on the brink of disaster.”- Malthusian crap that never seems to occur.

  115. @Tyrion 2
    I'm not saying those policies are bad but I don't think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don't really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/126845/israels-bold-new-queen

    I’m not saying those policies are bad but I don’t think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don’t really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    Seriously?

    North Korea isn’t an ethno-nationalist state, it’s a impoverished loony heriditary commie dictatorship whose national propaganda is aimed against their own ethnic kin across the border. Did i say “impoverished”? They aren’t having two kids because they want to keep going out three nights a week and vacationing in Cancun, they are having two kids … cause that’s all they can afford. Two’s actually pretty impressive under their conditions.

    China? Really? The Chinese government had the dramatically anti-natal one-child policy up until a few years ago.

    Iran is at least interesting. But it’s not ethno-nationalist, it’s an Islamic dictatorship state. And it had a huge population boom, with the population more than doubling since the revolution. Now is crowded. Lots of young people are sick of the islamic dictatorship. And it has slammed into the demographic transition.

    If you actually want a test case Hungary. Orban’s been in power (round 2) 8 or 9 years now and the TFR has moved all of about 20% (1.25 to 1.5). If he or his party could actually stay in power a generation, really put in place policies similar to mine and not see the TFR recover then you’d have a point. Of course, it’s hard to get a fair test, because globohomo is relentless and hates nationalists being in power anywhere.

    ~~~

    Israel. My comment wasn’t about Israel, but you’re right i don’t know much about it. (Never been there. Only know a couple Israeli guys. Don’t sit around studying it.) I know the situation–and the population–there is complex.

    That said, you’re argument–a black beauty queen–is ridiculous. That means …. nothing. That’s the cheesiest most meaningless version of PC virtue signalling. What has the nation actually done with blacks? Tried to keep them out and send the ones there home!

    Sure the Israeli TFR has some gotchas. A big blob are these Haredi welfare parasites. Still, even outside of these parasites, Jewish TFR is solid–solidly above replacement. That’s unique among the white population of any white nation. The logical conclusion is that’s Israeli Jews have a sense of identity and purpose and the nation’s elite is on their side. Ethno-nationalism.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    China? Really? The Chinese government had the dramatically anti-natal one-child policy up until a few years ago.
     
    Wasn't Chinese fertility in freefall well before the one child policy took effect?
    , @Lot
    "these Haredi welfare parasites"

    They aren't parasites, their job is to make more Jews, and they're doing it!

    It is also eugenic:

    1. They are about 80% full Ashkenazi (versus less than half of the rest of Israel)
    2. Some of them (about 45% of working age men) work. The ones on "permanent Torah scholar" welfare probably are mostly from the smartest half.
    3. They breed young, which is further eugenic.
    , @Tyrion 2

    That said, you’re argument–a black beauty queen–is ridiculous. That means …. nothing. That’s the cheesiest most meaningless version of PC virtue signalling. What has the nation actually done with blacks? Tried to keep them out and send the ones there home!
     
    No, they fly them in, house them well, give them years of free education and a full assimilation programme with paid "friends" and everything.

    This is what they do for all Jewish incomers. Indeed, they'd do it with all full Orthodox converts.

    I just wondered if that fit your definition of "ethno"-nationalism? I'd say it is instead a rather different beast, though with plenty of correlation - because they're both nationalisms of sorts.

    As for your dismissal of my other examples. I think you're wandering down the no true Scotsman fallacy. I mean, other than Hungary, is Israel, of the 190+ countries, the only "ethno"-nationalist state? Even while they fly in Ethiopians to take part in even cushier assimilation programmes than Norway? You know, if you're willing to do the full conversion process you can get exactly the same treatment?

    I guess my query is two fold. Israel is not the "ethno"-nationalist state you think. It is very much multi-ethnic, extremely so in fact. And other states that fit the bill don't have surging birth rates.
  116. @Tyrion 2
    The article is painfully stupid. So is this BBC one, though it does add a few paragraphs of sense for balance - the BBC journalists really so try, even if their efforts are poor.

    Speak to South Koreans from older generations about the low fertility rate and the contrast in attitude is sharp. They see people like Yun-hwa as too individualistic and selfish.

    I start chatting to two women in their 60s enjoying the stream-side park that runs through central Seoul. One tells me she has three daughters in their 40s, but none has had children.

    "I try to instil patriotism and duty to the country with the kids, and of course I would love to see them continuing the line," she says. "But their decision is not to do that."

    "There should be that sense of duty to the country," her friend chips in. "We're very worried about the low fertility rate here."

    Sadly, they follow it with applauding a solipsistic shrike for broadcasting her own soured personality. She also intends to remain childless and relationshipless forever! Paging Whiskey.

    Yun-hwa and her contemporaries, the children of a globalised world, aren't persuaded by such arguments.

    When I put it to her that if she and her contemporaries don't have children her country's culture will die, she tells me that it's time for the male-dominated culture to go.

    "Must die," she says, breaking into English. "Must die!"

    Safe to say that young Korean men of Yun-hwa's generation are some of the most feminine in the world, while the older were actually very macho. It seems the older generation maintain the respect of the women of their age, while the younger generation inspire nothing but fear and loathing from their generation's women.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/stories-45201725

    “Must die,” she says, breaking into English. “Must die!”

    OK, that quote made me laugh. I’m sure 4chan could come up with a few good memes from it. I picture her saying it like the kid on the shining; “redrum” “redrum”.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    If you were a girl and your father's generation had built a country from nothing, kept the North Koreans at bay militarily and were tough and kind of heroic, but your own generation of men were BTS wannabes who play computer games until they die of exhaustion, you'd be full of hatred too. "Must die...must die..." while swearing off relationships and child rearing.
  117. @O'Really
    Viktor Orban has announced a major new policy for affordable family formation:

    https://voiceofeurope.com/2019/02/orban-announces-major-family-protection-package-for-hungary/

    If you have:

    2 children -- you get a preferential mortgage
    3 children or more -- the government makes payments on your mortgage
    4 children -- the mother receives permanent exemption from the personal income tax

    V. Orban vs D. Trump

    Action vs. Tweet
    Principle vs. Expediency
    Nationalism vs. Kushnerism
    Pro-Family vs. Pro-Israel
    Got Wall built without much fanfare vs. No wall and much complaining
    Soft-spoken/serious but gets job done vs. Nonstop reality-TV politics
    For Natives vs. For highest Leeegull Immigration Levels ‘Ever’.

    Contrast finished.

    Conclusion:

    Viktor Orban for President of the United States, 2020.

  118. @LondonBob
    I am guessing Finland doesn't have as large an immigrant population to inflate their birth figures as most Western countries do, so I suspect these figures aren't so bad. Sanctions on Russia also hit Finland hard, along with the collapse of Nokia. Of course much of Finland really isn't terribly inhabitable, bit like Sweden where almost all the population lives in the southern half of the country.

    Sanctions on Russia also hit Finland hard, along with the collapse of Nokia.

    Is there any actual evidence that economic problems on their own have a negative effect on the birth rate? Any evidence at all?

    Isn’t it more likely that Finland is just gradually getting more pozzed? Isn’t it more likely that it’s almost always the poz that lowers fertility rates? Is any other explanation really needed?

    And the more prosperous a country is the faster the poz spreads.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Yes economic cycles are closely related to fertility rates, see Eastern Europe since communism and the US during the great recession, common sense too.
  119. @Lot
    2017 didn't have any black contestants.

    https://pageantsnews.com/en/news/international-contests/miss-world/4475-miss-israel-2017-meet-the-candidates

    The girl on the bottom row, second from the right, is the prettiest IMO.

  120. @AnotherDad

    Cultural change is hard and slow.

    What can be fast is cold hard cash via the tax system. Why not a deduction for children under 10 of $50,000? That would be worth about $12,000-$15,000 a year to upper middle class families, but nothing for those who don’t pay taxes because of low/no income or because they cheat.
     
    Well i don't know about the first part. Cultural change--certainly judged by TFR--sure came hard and fast from 1960-1975. (Really from 1965-1975). And on the culture side, continues zipping along. It's a radically different America than from when i was a kid.

    But i know what you're getting at. It will be hard to turn this disaster around ... though seizing Hollyweird studios and tech media would be a start.


    Your last paragraph on tax deductions nails it--absolutely spot on. Another provable lie from globohomo media--along with all their other HBD and immigration provable lies--is that it's impossible to significantly affect fertility with incentives. Nonsense. Thought experiment: families with a passel of kids are enjoying a comfortable zero-income-tax lifestyle, while singletons and the childless labor away under a 90% tax rate yielding a subsistence lifestyle. Yeah, the result's a no-brainer.

    The modern lifestyle is ridiculously comfortable. Kids are a spending decision. (Though one that scales far better than many people think. Have more kids trust me!) Women aren't even having the number of children they *want* to have. You don't have to open rape-impregnation centers to fix this. Start cancelling out the net cost of kids with tax incentives and see what happens. There is some equilibrium between what we have now in singletons in penury that gives you an above replacement TFR. Math isn't hard.

    Math isn’t hard.

    It is for Barbie.

  121. Anonymous[396] • Disclaimer says:
    @BB753
    K-pop?

    Can anyone adequately explain how the Korean male ideal became so feminized? I haven’t known many Korean men, but the ones I have known have been industrious, tall, and decently handsome to my admittedly heterosexual male eye. If I were a woman, they’d seem like quite good marriage material. But Korean girls idolize guys who look like women in drag. What gives?

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    It's a giant sh*t test?
    , @BB753
    I blame anime and the whacky Japanese.
  122. @AnotherDad

    I’m not saying those policies are bad but I don’t think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don’t really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?
     

    Seriously?

    North Korea isn't an ethno-nationalist state, it's a impoverished loony heriditary commie dictatorship whose national propaganda is aimed against their own ethnic kin across the border. Did i say "impoverished"? They aren't having two kids because they want to keep going out three nights a week and vacationing in Cancun, they are having two kids ... cause that's all they can afford. Two's actually pretty impressive under their conditions.

    China? Really? The Chinese government had the dramatically anti-natal one-child policy up until a few years ago.

    Iran is at least interesting. But it's not ethno-nationalist, it's an Islamic dictatorship state. And it had a huge population boom, with the population more than doubling since the revolution. Now is crowded. Lots of young people are sick of the islamic dictatorship. And it has slammed into the demographic transition.

    If you actually want a test case Hungary. Orban's been in power (round 2) 8 or 9 years now and the TFR has moved all of about 20% (1.25 to 1.5). If he or his party could actually stay in power a generation, really put in place policies similar to mine and not see the TFR recover then you'd have a point. Of course, it's hard to get a fair test, because globohomo is relentless and hates nationalists being in power anywhere.

    ~~~

    Israel. My comment wasn't about Israel, but you're right i don't know much about it. (Never been there. Only know a couple Israeli guys. Don't sit around studying it.) I know the situation--and the population--there is complex.

    That said, you're argument--a black beauty queen--is ridiculous. That means .... nothing. That's the cheesiest most meaningless version of PC virtue signalling. What has the nation actually done with blacks? Tried to keep them out and send the ones there home!

    Sure the Israeli TFR has some gotchas. A big blob are these Haredi welfare parasites. Still, even outside of these parasites, Jewish TFR is solid--solidly above replacement. That's unique among the white population of any white nation. The logical conclusion is that's Israeli Jews have a sense of identity and purpose and the nation's elite is on their side. Ethno-nationalism.

    China? Really? The Chinese government had the dramatically anti-natal one-child policy up until a few years ago.

    Wasn’t Chinese fertility in freefall well before the one child policy took effect?

  123. @Anonymous
    Uhhhh....does that include gypsy women?

    Do gypsies pay tax?

  124. @Tyrion 2
    I'm not saying those policies are bad but I don't think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don't really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/126845/israels-bold-new-queen

    Non-representative sample. Your citation is at best statistically inaccurate and at worst statistically inaccurate and unethical.

  125. @AnotherDad

    I’m not saying those policies are bad but I don’t think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don’t really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?
     

    Seriously?

    North Korea isn't an ethno-nationalist state, it's a impoverished loony heriditary commie dictatorship whose national propaganda is aimed against their own ethnic kin across the border. Did i say "impoverished"? They aren't having two kids because they want to keep going out three nights a week and vacationing in Cancun, they are having two kids ... cause that's all they can afford. Two's actually pretty impressive under their conditions.

    China? Really? The Chinese government had the dramatically anti-natal one-child policy up until a few years ago.

    Iran is at least interesting. But it's not ethno-nationalist, it's an Islamic dictatorship state. And it had a huge population boom, with the population more than doubling since the revolution. Now is crowded. Lots of young people are sick of the islamic dictatorship. And it has slammed into the demographic transition.

    If you actually want a test case Hungary. Orban's been in power (round 2) 8 or 9 years now and the TFR has moved all of about 20% (1.25 to 1.5). If he or his party could actually stay in power a generation, really put in place policies similar to mine and not see the TFR recover then you'd have a point. Of course, it's hard to get a fair test, because globohomo is relentless and hates nationalists being in power anywhere.

    ~~~

    Israel. My comment wasn't about Israel, but you're right i don't know much about it. (Never been there. Only know a couple Israeli guys. Don't sit around studying it.) I know the situation--and the population--there is complex.

    That said, you're argument--a black beauty queen--is ridiculous. That means .... nothing. That's the cheesiest most meaningless version of PC virtue signalling. What has the nation actually done with blacks? Tried to keep them out and send the ones there home!

    Sure the Israeli TFR has some gotchas. A big blob are these Haredi welfare parasites. Still, even outside of these parasites, Jewish TFR is solid--solidly above replacement. That's unique among the white population of any white nation. The logical conclusion is that's Israeli Jews have a sense of identity and purpose and the nation's elite is on their side. Ethno-nationalism.

    “these Haredi welfare parasites”

    They aren’t parasites, their job is to make more Jews, and they’re doing it!

    It is also eugenic:

    1. They are about 80% full Ashkenazi (versus less than half of the rest of Israel)
    2. Some of them (about 45% of working age men) work. The ones on “permanent Torah scholar” welfare probably are mostly from the smartest half.
    3. They breed young, which is further eugenic.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    They also have a lot of genetic diseases and terrible haircuts/sense of style.

    Seriously even the Amish are more aesthetic.
    , @Steve Sailer
    What percentage of Israeli haredis drop out and become normal productive taxpayers?
    , @AnotherDad
    Lot, maybe it's your Jewish half generating the confusion but smart != "not a parasite".

    We've got plenty of smart parasites here in the USA on Wall Street and in Washington.

    These Haredi do not (at least most of them) produce and basically loot other people--looting done by the government--for their food, clothing shelter. (Plus skipping their miltiary service obligation.) That's called being a "parasite". (Welfare case division.)

    And eugenic? Maybe. I'd want data. The Ashkenazi are smart folks--IQs seeming to run around 110 in the US--but i'd be very surprised if the Haredi are in that ballpark. And dedicating yourself to studying the Torah while "the world is full of interest" does not seem like something that would attract genuinely smart young men. But smart or not, they are parasites.


    BTW, the welfare policy the Haredi are milking is pretty much the exact opposite of the tax deduction policy your propose. If eugenic fertility is the concern--and yes it always should be--that's what the Israelis should be doing. And they'd be boosting the fertility of actually smart, competent, productive Israelis--religious, traditional and secular.
  126. @Redneck farmer
    OK, can we finally say "Shut up!" to anyone who tells us how the Scandinavian welfare state is pro-family?

    OK, can we finally say “Shut up!” to anyone who tells us how the Scandinavian welfare state is pro-family?

    I don’t think it’s the welfare state at all. It’s the cultural baggage that has been added on top. Feminism, LGBT activism. Mostly feminism. Plus increasing materialism and consumerism.

    Again it would be nice to see some evidence that it’s the welfare state in itself that is the problem.

    It’s always tempting to find simplistic bogeymen to blame for everything that has gone wrong. It’s the welfare state. It’s the commies. It’s the Jews. It’s the blacks.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I don’t think it’s the welfare state at all. It’s the cultural baggage that has been added on top.
     
    So the welfare state is the enabler.

    Grounds for returning welfare to the church, where it always belonged.
  127. @Lot
    "these Haredi welfare parasites"

    They aren't parasites, their job is to make more Jews, and they're doing it!

    It is also eugenic:

    1. They are about 80% full Ashkenazi (versus less than half of the rest of Israel)
    2. Some of them (about 45% of working age men) work. The ones on "permanent Torah scholar" welfare probably are mostly from the smartest half.
    3. They breed young, which is further eugenic.

    They also have a lot of genetic diseases and terrible haircuts/sense of style.

    Seriously even the Amish are more aesthetic.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Seriously even the Amish are more aesthetic.
     
    True, and that's saying a lot. Most Amish I see (not that I see that many) have that sort of south-of-I-70 Missouri small town look, if you know what I mean.

    A Kansas Citian only has to go to to one of the Oak Grove truck stops to see what i mean from some of the people that work there. Nice enough, but their faces have a similar weirdness, weak odd chins, et al.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Seriously even the Amish are more aesthetic.
     
    You must not live among them, like I do. But, yes, outdoor work does keep them sturdy.
  128. @Tyrion 2
    What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?

    What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?

    Different sources quote slightly different figures but Taiwan and Singapore seem to be in just as much trouble. Singapore’s TFR may be as low as 0.84. That’s embracing the death cult with a vengeance.

    • Replies: @Talha

    South Korean culture
     
    K-Pop...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBdVXkSdhwU

    I rest my case.

    Peace.

    Note: Ijma (scholarly consensus) is a difficult thing to reach these days, but I take solace that the ulema will unanimously agree that any reconstituted caliphate must go postal on K-pop within its jurisdiction.
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzKdiFFWwAEnn4I.jpg

    You can thank us later via charitable donations to the Bayt ul-Mal after the task has been finished.
  129. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thomm
    Birth rates are falling everywhere except for the worst places like SS Africa, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc.

    Even the Duggar and Bates families are not seeing the same productivity in the second generation.

    Each family had 19 kids. I had hoped that each of the 19 would have 19 so that each has 361 grandchildren.

    But on current trends, I don't think either family will exceed 50 grandchildren in the end.

    The Duggars are no great asset to the survival of Whites as Whites in America. Success depends on smart people having reasonably large families they can and will properly educate, in the real sense of the word. I’ve seen zero race consciousness from any Duggar.

    Have three or four kids and have them understand the truth of race and the importance of solidarity and being pro-White in a sane way, not doing stupid or destructive things. Join a church with few or no nonwhites if that’s your thing. They will have to learn about how to keep quiet to get through academia and the workplace.

  130. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @S. Anonyia
    They also have a lot of genetic diseases and terrible haircuts/sense of style.

    Seriously even the Amish are more aesthetic.

    Seriously even the Amish are more aesthetic.

    True, and that’s saying a lot. Most Amish I see (not that I see that many) have that sort of south-of-I-70 Missouri small town look, if you know what I mean.

    A Kansas Citian only has to go to to one of the Oak Grove truck stops to see what i mean from some of the people that work there. Nice enough, but their faces have a similar weirdness, weak odd chins, et al.

  131. @dfordoom

    OK, can we finally say “Shut up!” to anyone who tells us how the Scandinavian welfare state is pro-family?
     
    I don't think it's the welfare state at all. It's the cultural baggage that has been added on top. Feminism, LGBT activism. Mostly feminism. Plus increasing materialism and consumerism.

    Again it would be nice to see some evidence that it's the welfare state in itself that is the problem.

    It's always tempting to find simplistic bogeymen to blame for everything that has gone wrong. It's the welfare state. It's the commies. It's the Jews. It's the blacks.

    I don’t think it’s the welfare state at all. It’s the cultural baggage that has been added on top.

    So the welfare state is the enabler.

    Grounds for returning welfare to the church, where it always belonged.

  132. @S. Anonyia
    They also have a lot of genetic diseases and terrible haircuts/sense of style.

    Seriously even the Amish are more aesthetic.

    Seriously even the Amish are more aesthetic.

    You must not live among them, like I do. But, yes, outdoor work does keep them sturdy.

  133. @MikeatMikedotMike
    They need more immigration because wombs are rotting the fields of abdomens.

    They need more immigration because wombs are rotting the fields of abdomens.

    Making babies: Another job Americans won’t do.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Making babies: Another job Americans won’t do.
     
    Bear with us.
  134. @George
    After the Iceland financial crises:
    Iceland second most fertile nation in Europe
    https://www.icelandreview.com/news/iceland-second-most-fertile-nation-europe/

    But a decade later the birthrate dropped to the Euro average:
    Fewer Births, Fertility Rate Drops in Iceland
    https://www.icelandreview.com/news/fewer-births-fertility-rate-drops-iceland/

    What happened? With no first-hand knowledge, just reading the banking crash reports, instead of strict austerity measures on the civilian population Iceland devalued its currency, allowed bond defaults, and allowed real estate prices to collapse. Military spending was not an issue for Iceland. This essentially channeled money into young people and reduced the cost of real estate which made having children easier.

    Curiously, increasing the number of Icelanders is what long term debt holders of Icelandic securities, including currency, would want. The solution the Eurocrats chose for the PIIGS is just the opposite, increase military spending while reducing the number of citizens in the PIIGS and increasing the number of immigrants.

    A general collapse of real estate prices in the PIIGS area does not seem to have been enough to change anything.

    After the Iceland financial crises

    The article you link to is dated March 2007, which is definitely before the (Iceland) Financial Crisis. Iceland’s financial-political crisis was a late 2008 to 2009 affair, in line with the timing of the global crisis.

    A change in fertility decisions, even if immediate following a political change, will tend to lag in the data by at least nine months for obvious reasons. The b.2010 cohort will be the first conceived after the crisis.

    I would suggest as a hypothesis that the political shock of late 2008 and 2009 is the cause of the downward fertility shift.

    Iceland TFRs, 1900 to 2018
    – 1900-1931: Relatively steady at ~3.8 (avg.)
    – 1932: 3.3
    – 1933: 3.1
    – 1934-1941: 2.85 average (Great Depression definitely seems to have put downward pressure on fertility in Iceland as elsewhere, causing a loss of nearly a full 1.0 TFR point over the pre-Depression average)
    – 1942: Sudden jump to 3.3 (Icelandic Baby Boom begins) [U.S. occupation of Iceland from June 1941]
    – 1942-1966: 3.8 average
    – 1967-1973: 3.0 average, new equilibrium (Following sudden drops in 1967 and 1968)
    – 1974 to mid 1980s: Iceland’s TFR transitions downward to below replacement, similar trajectory but a little later than the core West (Iceland hits <2.1 first in 1984); low-point is 1.92 in 1986.
    – 1988 to 2010: Modest reversal of the 1980s downward trend; steady TFR through 2010 at a healthy 2.1 average (range: 1.95 to 2.3).
    – 2009: 2.22
    – 2010: 2.20
    – 2011: 2.02
    – 2012: 2.04
    – 2013: 1.93
    – 2014: 1.93
    – 2015: 1.81
    – 2016: 1.75
    – 2017: 1.71
    – 2018: (Looks like it will be ~1.85)

    It looks like the real decline is in the 2015 to 2017 period, when Iceland TFR dropped below the previous low-point of 1.9 for the first time. This is well after the political crisis. The losses of 2011-2014 are trivial, at just slightly below its longrun average of the late 1970s through early 2010s (2.1).

    What was happening in Iceland in the mid 2010s?

  135. @Autochthon
    It's all part of the ongoing stultification – er, sorry, enstupidification?:

    - WW (formerly Weight Watchers; and, no, it's not an acronym
    - EUR-Lex
    - Ryanair
    - Mastercard, like Prince Nelson once upon a time, ia now an unpronouncable symbol

    And so on...

    It's a confluence of several things, and one day I will probably finish my book about the exponential acceleration of the degradation of language and effective communication in recent years due to historically unprecendented changes in technology and demography (language has of course always changed, but never like it is now!). The most salient causes, though, include:

    1) Short Attention Span Theatre: Twitter, texting, and such make proper typing more difficult (because phones have tiny, shitty keyboards and the media encourage lazy abbreviations like b4, l8, bcuz, and such.

    2) Every Man a Writer: For a long time many stupid people seldom wrote, and that was just as well, since stupid people cannot master writing. Now every illiterate Negro in Chad and every savage cholo in Miami has a smartphone; as their writings proliferate, others are exposed again and again to shitty writing until it becomes internalised by other idiots, young people who don't know better, and others who just give up and assimilate to the stupidity.

    3) Kakistocracy: Corporations, government, and academia used to be run by smart people. Now they are run by clever fools, confidence artists, people chosen because they havw vaginas or brown skin, and so on. They are also now stuffed with those prone to flashy marketing, which is more important than ever to rule a people stupider than ever. Thus for titles in art, instead of The Posthumous Papers of the Pickwick Club we get American Dreamz (yes, I know that film was actually a quite brilliant satire of the very phenomenon about which I write, but the title is a good example); for pseudonyms instead of Publius we get Tekashi 6ix9ine, and so on.

    4) Style Without Substance (or, Baffle 'Em With Bullshit): Polysyllabic word salad, ostentatious jargon, and downright nonsense words have replaced concise writing precisely because the writing has no underlying substance to concisely convey. Thus we get Sophie Lewis and Tanasy Coats hemorrhaging reams upon reams about "transitioning" (transition is a noun, not a verb; the perfectly sound verb "changing" is usually what is meant); their "lived experiences" (are there any other kind? – I suppose a corpse may be said to experience burial, but that's straining the language); "white privilege" (privilege, like all abstact nouns, has no colour; one might write about "the privileges only white people have," or some such, but even then only if any such existed in the way the writer pretends they do...and they don't)...and so on. Pick up an academic paper anout he humanities, or any corporate white paper to be dazzled by more examples. Whether the writers are bemoaning "gendered heteronormativity" on campus or espousing "synergy in the technology space" from a skyscraper, they're babbling nonsense all the same.

    From The Guardian's own guidelines:

    abbreviations and acronyms

    Do not use full points in abbreviations, or spaces between initials, including those in proper names: IMF, mph, eg, 4am, M&S, No 10, AN Wilson, WH Smith, etc.

    Use all capitals if an abbreviation is pronounced as the individual letters (an initialism): BBC, CEO, US, VAT, etc; if it is an acronym (pronounced as a word) spell out with initial capital, eg Nasa, Nato, Unicef, unless it can be considered to have entered the language as an everyday word, such as awol, laser and, more recently, asbo, pin number and sim card. Note that pdf and plc are lowercase.

    If an abbreviation or acronym is to be used more than once in a piece, put it in brackets at first mention: so Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), seasonal affective disorder (Sad); alternatively, use the abbreviation with a brief description, eg the conservation charity the RSPB. Remember that our international online readership will not necessarily be aware of even well-known UK abbreviations. If an organisation is mentioned only once, it is not necessary to give its abbreviation or acronym.

    Cap up single letters in such expressions as C-list, F-word, "the word assassin contains four Ss", etc
     
    Cap up, lads, 'fore the Acpo come 'round fer ye at 4am!

    pin number

    They allow redundancy?

  136. @Anonymous

    They need more immigration because wombs are rotting the fields of abdomens.
     
    Making babies: Another job Americans won't do.

    Making babies: Another job Americans won’t do.

    Bear with us.

  137. @MikeatMikedotMike
    They need more immigration because wombs are rotting the fields of abdomens.

    They need more immigration because wombs are rotting the fields of abdomens.

    Is this an argument for price supports?

  138. @Flip
    I am not sure that a slightly declining population is such a terrible thing. The problem comes if you allow immigrants to come in and replace the native population over time.

    “I am not sure that a slightly declining population is such a terrible thing. The problem comes if you allow immigrants to come in and replace the native population over time.”

    Agree, it is just like that. In 1870 the population of Finland was about 2 million, now it is 5 million. It could just as well be 2 million, but one should not replace the population with immigrants as that practically always causes problems in only a few decades, like it did in Sweden.

  139. @Anonymous
    I don't know.

    Finland's only got 5 million inhabitants or so but (so to speak) infinite woodland and lumber resources.
    If any of you had to do any DIY lately, you must know of the wicked price of sawn, prepared, planed, seasoned timber.
    Surely, there's enough money in lumber alone to support the Finns to a good standard of living.

    Hat tip:

    Timber is so rammed useful and versatile is a construction material that it will *never* be beaten by any artificial substitutes.

    Finland’s only got 5 million inhabitants or so but (so to speak) infinite woodland and lumber resources.

    Then they should get on with it and start making mega-Euros from lumber. Are the Finnish guys up for this? This looks like a field the women cannot hijack. How come Finns were known for paper mills? That are now closed down? You feed B and C grade trees into paper mills. https://www.concordmonitor.com/logging-industry-law-future-nh-new-hampshire-10513758

  140. @Torn and Frayed
    It's completely normal and natural that birth rates decline in advanced and wealthy societies like Finland. What's unnatural and wrong is to try to continue having demographic growth through mass third world immigration. Given the challenges of climate change and the fact that technological advances will make low-skill labour less necessary, it is high time for people on the right to start rejecting neo-liberal growth-at-all-costs and to instead embrace the concept of a steady state economy or even de-growth (décroissance). The intellectual founding father of the identitarian movement in Europe, Alain de Benoist, wrote an excellent book advocating décroissance.

    Given the challenges of climate change and the fact that technological advances will make low-skill labour less necessary, it is high time for people on the right to start rejecting neo-liberal growth-at-all-costs and to instead embrace the concept of a steady state economy or even de-growth (décroissance).

    Apart from the climate change thing (climate change is so obviously a scam it’s not worth considering) I do have some sympathy for the idea that slightly lower populations might be a good thing. I can certainly see many obvious benefits.

    The problem is that populations would have to be be reduced very very gradually otherwise you’re going to have massive economic dislocation. So a TFR of around 2.05 (just below replacement levels) would be fine.

    But when you have a TFR of 0.96 like South Korea you’re talking about rapid and almost certainly irreversible demographic collapse along with a dramatically ageing population. That is not a survivable proposition for any nation.

  141. @Lot
    Anon253's link shows the average Helsinki Somali has 3.5 TFR, while Finn women it is one third of this.

    So there's your rebound in big families.

    Anon253’s link shows the average Helsinki Somali has 3.5 TFR, while Finn women it is one third of this.

    40,000 Somalis in Finland and they are cranking up that heat to Kingdom Come 9 months a year. And the average yellow vest Finn taxpayers is paying for it. Imagining myself as a Somali …. I am thinking BumFunk Finland is the last place (via life’s immigration lottery) I want to land. I will be pining to somehow, some way to crash myself into the UK, preferably London. With max bennies galore there and lower temps.
    This ongoing Kamala Harris stylized invasion of the European founded world sucks. By this I mean USA, Canada, Europe, Australia and NZ.

    • Replies: @Pericles

    I am thinking BumFunk Finland is the last place (via life’s immigration lottery) I want to land. I will be pining to somehow, some way to crash myself into the UK, preferably London.

     

    Well, not much is stopping you from collecting benefits in several countries. And have some patience, because at some point you can travel freely in the Schengen area. With that said, I see a lot of Somalis in the (Swedish) city/town I'm in. They got into scamming the welfare state pretty quickly, so maybe they enjoy the surroundings.
  142. @Tyrion 2
    I'm not saying those policies are bad but I don't think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don't really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/126845/israels-bold-new-queen

    but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?

    This is what people who blame the Jews for everything overlook. The poz is going to destroy Israel just as certainly as it’s going to destroy western nations.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    This is what people who blame the Jews for everything overlook. The poz is going to destroy Israel just as certainly as it’s going to destroy western nations.
     
    They'll turn off "the poz" once Western nations are destroyed. That is why it is on in the first place.
  143. @Guy De Champlagne
    I think Steve has a theory about Israeli jews do a limited number of high profile pro black actions relating to ethiopian jews to help win support from american jews and distract from the whole ethnic cleansing of muslims and christians thing. The ethiopian jews are basically Israelis black friends that they get to use to show off how great they are to people with ridiculous enough belief systems to buy into it.

    No, they’re normal full citizens and soon enough there’ll be none left in Ethiopia and all in Israel. Naturally, they help with PR, but then, judging by the fact that every group I saw of national service people would have one among them, I think they’re pretty glad to help.

  144. @Lot
    "these Haredi welfare parasites"

    They aren't parasites, their job is to make more Jews, and they're doing it!

    It is also eugenic:

    1. They are about 80% full Ashkenazi (versus less than half of the rest of Israel)
    2. Some of them (about 45% of working age men) work. The ones on "permanent Torah scholar" welfare probably are mostly from the smartest half.
    3. They breed young, which is further eugenic.

    What percentage of Israeli haredis drop out and become normal productive taxpayers?

  145. @AnotherDad

    I’m not saying those policies are bad but I don’t think that North Korea (TFR 1.9), China (1.6), Japan (even less), Iran (1.6) or others support your conclusions.

    I also think that you don’t really know a great deal about Israel. I can square this, but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?
     

    Seriously?

    North Korea isn't an ethno-nationalist state, it's a impoverished loony heriditary commie dictatorship whose national propaganda is aimed against their own ethnic kin across the border. Did i say "impoverished"? They aren't having two kids because they want to keep going out three nights a week and vacationing in Cancun, they are having two kids ... cause that's all they can afford. Two's actually pretty impressive under their conditions.

    China? Really? The Chinese government had the dramatically anti-natal one-child policy up until a few years ago.

    Iran is at least interesting. But it's not ethno-nationalist, it's an Islamic dictatorship state. And it had a huge population boom, with the population more than doubling since the revolution. Now is crowded. Lots of young people are sick of the islamic dictatorship. And it has slammed into the demographic transition.

    If you actually want a test case Hungary. Orban's been in power (round 2) 8 or 9 years now and the TFR has moved all of about 20% (1.25 to 1.5). If he or his party could actually stay in power a generation, really put in place policies similar to mine and not see the TFR recover then you'd have a point. Of course, it's hard to get a fair test, because globohomo is relentless and hates nationalists being in power anywhere.

    ~~~

    Israel. My comment wasn't about Israel, but you're right i don't know much about it. (Never been there. Only know a couple Israeli guys. Don't sit around studying it.) I know the situation--and the population--there is complex.

    That said, you're argument--a black beauty queen--is ridiculous. That means .... nothing. That's the cheesiest most meaningless version of PC virtue signalling. What has the nation actually done with blacks? Tried to keep them out and send the ones there home!

    Sure the Israeli TFR has some gotchas. A big blob are these Haredi welfare parasites. Still, even outside of these parasites, Jewish TFR is solid--solidly above replacement. That's unique among the white population of any white nation. The logical conclusion is that's Israeli Jews have a sense of identity and purpose and the nation's elite is on their side. Ethno-nationalism.

    That said, you’re argument–a black beauty queen–is ridiculous. That means …. nothing. That’s the cheesiest most meaningless version of PC virtue signalling. What has the nation actually done with blacks? Tried to keep them out and send the ones there home!

    No, they fly them in, house them well, give them years of free education and a full assimilation programme with paid “friends” and everything.

    This is what they do for all Jewish incomers. Indeed, they’d do it with all full Orthodox converts.

    I just wondered if that fit your definition of “ethno”-nationalism? I’d say it is instead a rather different beast, though with plenty of correlation – because they’re both nationalisms of sorts.

    As for your dismissal of my other examples. I think you’re wandering down the no true Scotsman fallacy. I mean, other than Hungary, is Israel, of the 190+ countries, the only “ethno”-nationalist state? Even while they fly in Ethiopians to take part in even cushier assimilation programmes than Norway? You know, if you’re willing to do the full conversion process you can get exactly the same treatment?

    I guess my query is two fold. Israel is not the “ethno”-nationalist state you think. It is very much multi-ethnic, extremely so in fact. And other states that fit the bill don’t have surging birth rates.

    • Replies: @Massimo Heitor

    I mean, other than Hungary, is Israel, of the 190+ countries, the only “ethno”-nationalist state? Even while they fly in Ethiopians to take part in even cushier assimilation programmes than Norway?
     

    I guess my query is two fold. Israel is not the “ethno”-nationalist state you think. It is very much multi-ethnic, extremely so in fact. And other states that fit the bill don’t have surging birth rates.
     
    I'm pro Jew and pro-Israel, but this is absurd.

    One piece I agree with you on and disagree with Another Dad: lots of nations are ethno-centric not just Israel. Maybe even most nations. China is very ethno-centric. Singapore is. Japan is. Most humans care deeply about various identity groups that they belong to.

    The Jewish identity is kind of an ethnic identity in many ways. It has tribal membership primarily inherited through birth lineage. The nation of Israel officially asserts the ethnic-like Jewish identity as the supreme identity of the nation.

    Israel has non-Jewish citizens and African citizens. It's "multi-ethnic" in that sense. Realistically every nation throughout time was multi-ethnic. Ethnic groups themselves are mixes of ancestor ethnic groups. All humans ultimately came from non-human apes.

    Israel flew in a relatively small number of Ethiopian Jews and aggressively blocks other Africans from coming to Israel. That's a good talking point but so what? Israel strictly limits the numbers of non-Jews admitted. They aggressively protect their Jewish demographics, the Jewish majority, and the Jewish identity. Most Africans are aggressively prohibited from entering Israel.

    Regarding the Jewish birth rate, that would be considered racist and evil for whites to do that in the US or Europe. The Jews are under less of that pressure and they care about their identity. I applaud them for taking constructive action regarding what they care about.
    , @AnotherDad
    Tyrion, Massimo Heitor tossed up some more points in response.

    But seriously. I said ethno-nationalism--sense of community\purpose\connection-to-the-future is key and gave an extended ethno-nationalist program, a good chunk of which was an explicit government pro-fertility program.

    Your, the-evidence-doesn't-support-you included China a nation which had a long extreme *anti-fertility* government program.

    At that point, that point what more is there to say?


    Then your Israel's not-ethno-nationalist assertion ... buttressed by the incredibly compelling evidence of the cheesy virtue signalling of a black beauty queen. (From the tiny ethiopean jewish community. While in fact Israel's taken great pains to get rid of Africans and stop them from entering.)

    ~~~

    Again. I stand by my assertion. The key to fertility and a future will be explicit ethno-nationalism ideology and policies that give people a larger sense of "belonging" to a nation and connection to the past and future.

    It also makes people's lives richer and makes them happier throughout the hatch-match-dispatch cycle of their lives.
  146. @Doogie
    The Bell Beaker culture died out roughly 1.5 millennia before that thing was constructed. They were never really steppe people.

    Oh yes they were!

  147. @Anonymous
    Maybe Finns are naturally conscientious and if they feel they can't support more children on their own, they don't have them, as opposed to Somalis, who keep having children whether they can support them or not(even better when white taxpayers do it for them). Combining this with the ability to follow current events and economic trends and you might have a recipe for declining birth rates.

    Finland's economy never recovered after the 2008 crash to the same extent as the rest of the Nordics. The English-language Finnish press is always full of doom-and-gloom stories about the economy. Also, if memory serves, Finland's birth rate really dropped when they experienced severe economic problems(I think it was the early 1990's), and it rose again after(though not to replacement levels).

    Finland’s economy never recovered after the 2008 crash to the same extent as the rest of the Nordics.

    Finland’s TFR loss from its 2008-2011 level (1.85) to its 2017 level (1.49) (see OP) is a loss of 0.36 TFR points (which, in practical terms, equals 10,000 fewer babies per year). This page gives the official the TFR data by region and year.

    It’s no surprise that the lowest TFR is in the Helsinki region, population 1,488,236 (note: this population figure may constitute hate-speech in some EU member states). The Helsinki region sits at 1.38 as of 2017.

    Helsinki has 30% of the total population of Finland, so some might hypothesize that the modest TFR drop might be driven a large fall in Helsinki fertility: It is not. Helsinki’s drop is actually below average.

    Finland’s fertility decline is across the board and without any coherent regional or socioeconomic causation mechanism that jumps out. Here are the biggest and smallest TFR drops by region:

    TFR in 2008 / TFR in 2017 / Loss: Region of Finland
    – 1.78 / 1.61 / -0.17 points: Satakunta [Smallest drop]
    – 1.88 / 1.68 / -0.20 points: Åland Islands [2nd Smallest drop]
    – 1.70 / 1.38 / -0.32 points: Uusimaa (Helsinki) [Approx. average drop]
    – 1.85 / 1.49 / -0.36 points: Whole Country
    – 2.00 / 1.52 / -0.48 points: Lapland [2nd Largest drop]
    – 2.38 / 1.83 / -0.55 points: North Ostrobothnia [Largest drop]

    The largest-drop regions are simply those that started higher and had more space to fall.

    North Ostrobothnia’s main city is Oulu, the metro area of which has half the state’s population. It continues to attract new people, +63% population from 1980 to 2015 due to internal migrants. “At the end of 2015, 5,235 (2.6%) of Oulu residents were not Finnish citizens. Over 40% of them were from Asia and Oceania.” These numbers are low (only ~1% of Oulu residents may be incompatible foreigners) and it doesn’t seem plausible that their small presence will have directly depressed native fertility in Oulu in the 2010s.

    [MORE]

    Lapland, otoh, is super rural and economically sluggish. It seems to be undergoing a longterm, modest brain drain, with a -10% net population loss from 1995 to 2015. A few, tiny non-Western ‘beachheads’ have been established up there, but collectively non-Europeans are still in the 1-2% range in Finnish Lapland, with the largest group being Myanmarese (415 people in 2017; 0.2%).

    The smallest-drop regions are also a mixed bag in socioeconomic terms; they started about even with the national average but are now well above it:

    Satakunta, like Lapland, has been in long-term population decline (-8% loss from the 1980s to mid 2010s) and wiki depicts it as not quite a Finnish Rust Belt area but having some affinity to such. Industries are energy (Satakunta produces one fourth of Finland’s electricity) and agriculture. Pori is the largest city in the state (pop.: 85,000; 38% of the state’s population), and its non-Western foreigner share is small, <2%. Pori's fertility is shockingly low, though, with population contraction already biting: In 2016, 722 babies were born in Pori, 1,244 Pori citizens died, and 218 new migrants came in, unspecified how many were domestic and how many international.

    The Aland Islands, off the southwest coast, are doing very well and have been steadily gaining net population. The Aland economy is "dominated by shipping, trade and tourism," and unemployment is very low. They use a lot of wind power. As for non-European foreigners in the Aland Islands, there are few, and not many at all of the most problematic sort (Muslims, Somalis): Thais at 153 people as of 2017 (0.5%) are the highest, second being Iranians at 106 people (0.3%), and third Filipinos at 72 people (0.2%).

    I am having a hard time finding a coherent narrative for why fertility declined in the 2010s in Finland. The presence of racial foreigners and Muslims on Finnish soil in non-trivial numbers, for the first time, is correlated with the decline, but the numbers do not really seem to correlate at the regional level, nor does any other narrative emerge from looking at where TFRs held up best and where they sank most.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Just what the frigging Hell are 'Myanmarese' - which I assume means 'Burmese', (or maybe even Rohingya?), are doing in Finland, let alone Lapland.

    The quintessential tropical people moving to the frozen Arctic.

    Just, what, exactly, in the name of buggery, is going on?
  148. @Anonymous
    Can anyone adequately explain how the Korean male ideal became so feminized? I haven't known many Korean men, but the ones I have known have been industrious, tall, and decently handsome to my admittedly heterosexual male eye. If I were a woman, they'd seem like quite good marriage material. But Korean girls idolize guys who look like women in drag. What gives?

    It’s a giant sh*t test?

  149. @dfordoom

    Sanctions on Russia also hit Finland hard, along with the collapse of Nokia.
     
    Is there any actual evidence that economic problems on their own have a negative effect on the birth rate? Any evidence at all?

    Isn't it more likely that Finland is just gradually getting more pozzed? Isn't it more likely that it's almost always the poz that lowers fertility rates? Is any other explanation really needed?

    And the more prosperous a country is the faster the poz spreads.

    Yes economic cycles are closely related to fertility rates, see Eastern Europe since communism and the US during the great recession, common sense too.

  150. @Perspective

    “Must die,” she says, breaking into English. “Must die!”
     
    OK, that quote made me laugh. I'm sure 4chan could come up with a few good memes from it. I picture her saying it like the kid on the shining; "redrum" "redrum".

    If you were a girl and your father’s generation had built a country from nothing, kept the North Koreans at bay militarily and were tough and kind of heroic, but your own generation of men were BTS wannabes who play computer games until they die of exhaustion, you’d be full of hatred too. “Must die…must die…” while swearing off relationships and child rearing.

  151. @Tyrion 2

    That said, you’re argument–a black beauty queen–is ridiculous. That means …. nothing. That’s the cheesiest most meaningless version of PC virtue signalling. What has the nation actually done with blacks? Tried to keep them out and send the ones there home!
     
    No, they fly them in, house them well, give them years of free education and a full assimilation programme with paid "friends" and everything.

    This is what they do for all Jewish incomers. Indeed, they'd do it with all full Orthodox converts.

    I just wondered if that fit your definition of "ethno"-nationalism? I'd say it is instead a rather different beast, though with plenty of correlation - because they're both nationalisms of sorts.

    As for your dismissal of my other examples. I think you're wandering down the no true Scotsman fallacy. I mean, other than Hungary, is Israel, of the 190+ countries, the only "ethno"-nationalist state? Even while they fly in Ethiopians to take part in even cushier assimilation programmes than Norway? You know, if you're willing to do the full conversion process you can get exactly the same treatment?

    I guess my query is two fold. Israel is not the "ethno"-nationalist state you think. It is very much multi-ethnic, extremely so in fact. And other states that fit the bill don't have surging birth rates.

    I mean, other than Hungary, is Israel, of the 190+ countries, the only “ethno”-nationalist state? Even while they fly in Ethiopians to take part in even cushier assimilation programmes than Norway?

    I guess my query is two fold. Israel is not the “ethno”-nationalist state you think. It is very much multi-ethnic, extremely so in fact. And other states that fit the bill don’t have surging birth rates.

    I’m pro Jew and pro-Israel, but this is absurd.

    One piece I agree with you on and disagree with Another Dad: lots of nations are ethno-centric not just Israel. Maybe even most nations. China is very ethno-centric. Singapore is. Japan is. Most humans care deeply about various identity groups that they belong to.

    The Jewish identity is kind of an ethnic identity in many ways. It has tribal membership primarily inherited through birth lineage. The nation of Israel officially asserts the ethnic-like Jewish identity as the supreme identity of the nation.

    Israel has non-Jewish citizens and African citizens. It’s “multi-ethnic” in that sense. Realistically every nation throughout time was multi-ethnic. Ethnic groups themselves are mixes of ancestor ethnic groups. All humans ultimately came from non-human apes.

    Israel flew in a relatively small number of Ethiopian Jews and aggressively blocks other Africans from coming to Israel. That’s a good talking point but so what? Israel strictly limits the numbers of non-Jews admitted. They aggressively protect their Jewish demographics, the Jewish majority, and the Jewish identity. Most Africans are aggressively prohibited from entering Israel.

    Regarding the Jewish birth rate, that would be considered racist and evil for whites to do that in the US or Europe. The Jews are under less of that pressure and they care about their identity. I applaud them for taking constructive action regarding what they care about.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2

    One piece I agree with you on and disagree with Another Dad: lots of nations are ethno-centric not just Israel. Maybe even most nations. China is very ethno-centric. Singapore is. Japan is. Most humans care deeply about various identity groups that they belong to.
     
    I'm basically happy to use either your or "AnotherDad's" definition. My point though, as I think you imply you recognise, was that Israel is a global outlier on birthrates but not an outlier on nationalism.

    The Jewish identity is kind of an ethnic identity in many ways. It has tribal membership primarily inherited through birth lineage. The nation of Israel officially asserts the ethnic-like Jewish identity as the supreme identity of the nation.

    Israel has non-Jewish citizens and African citizens. It’s “multi-ethnic” in that sense.
     

    I meant in my terminology, that it is multi-ethnic because Jews are multi-ethnic. Basically, how Jews define as a people is not the same as how ethnicity is generally defined. It also isn't merely religious.

    Actually, the old (true) definition of "American", that you share a bunch of cultural values or are related, is quite similar to Judaism in the Israeli sense. In other words, it is basically just nationalism with a bit of mystical archaic religious stuff mixed in. Lega Nord in Italy (now just Lega) practises something similar too. It has a black African Senator - because he is an Italian nationalist.

    I guess it is like a family. Your family is who you are blood related to, however people do hopefully join your family through other means! Like taking on your surname and becoming acculturated. Nationalism is that. Israel is now a collection of families and quite open to people joining through means other than being born. It just isn't made easy. They have standards.

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join. It doesn't matter how great they are to you, or how much they do for you. They are not your blood. This is a bit weird. It is so absolute and so mono-focussed.

    Conversely, the modern Western state would be, at best, anyone joining your family without having even met you or having any links to you at all and despising you. In fact, at worst, it is you are not your family and those people a thousand miles away who can't read or write are now actually your family! This is plainly mad.

  152. @Massimo Heitor

    I mean, other than Hungary, is Israel, of the 190+ countries, the only “ethno”-nationalist state? Even while they fly in Ethiopians to take part in even cushier assimilation programmes than Norway?
     

    I guess my query is two fold. Israel is not the “ethno”-nationalist state you think. It is very much multi-ethnic, extremely so in fact. And other states that fit the bill don’t have surging birth rates.
     
    I'm pro Jew and pro-Israel, but this is absurd.

    One piece I agree with you on and disagree with Another Dad: lots of nations are ethno-centric not just Israel. Maybe even most nations. China is very ethno-centric. Singapore is. Japan is. Most humans care deeply about various identity groups that they belong to.

    The Jewish identity is kind of an ethnic identity in many ways. It has tribal membership primarily inherited through birth lineage. The nation of Israel officially asserts the ethnic-like Jewish identity as the supreme identity of the nation.

    Israel has non-Jewish citizens and African citizens. It's "multi-ethnic" in that sense. Realistically every nation throughout time was multi-ethnic. Ethnic groups themselves are mixes of ancestor ethnic groups. All humans ultimately came from non-human apes.

    Israel flew in a relatively small number of Ethiopian Jews and aggressively blocks other Africans from coming to Israel. That's a good talking point but so what? Israel strictly limits the numbers of non-Jews admitted. They aggressively protect their Jewish demographics, the Jewish majority, and the Jewish identity. Most Africans are aggressively prohibited from entering Israel.

    Regarding the Jewish birth rate, that would be considered racist and evil for whites to do that in the US or Europe. The Jews are under less of that pressure and they care about their identity. I applaud them for taking constructive action regarding what they care about.

    One piece I agree with you on and disagree with Another Dad: lots of nations are ethno-centric not just Israel. Maybe even most nations. China is very ethno-centric. Singapore is. Japan is. Most humans care deeply about various identity groups that they belong to.

    I’m basically happy to use either your or “AnotherDad’s” definition. My point though, as I think you imply you recognise, was that Israel is a global outlier on birthrates but not an outlier on nationalism.

    The Jewish identity is kind of an ethnic identity in many ways. It has tribal membership primarily inherited through birth lineage. The nation of Israel officially asserts the ethnic-like Jewish identity as the supreme identity of the nation.

    Israel has non-Jewish citizens and African citizens. It’s “multi-ethnic” in that sense.

    I meant in my terminology, that it is multi-ethnic because Jews are multi-ethnic. Basically, how Jews define as a people is not the same as how ethnicity is generally defined. It also isn’t merely religious.

    Actually, the old (true) definition of “American”, that you share a bunch of cultural values or are related, is quite similar to Judaism in the Israeli sense. In other words, it is basically just nationalism with a bit of mystical archaic religious stuff mixed in. Lega Nord in Italy (now just Lega) practises something similar too. It has a black African Senator – because he is an Italian nationalist.

    I guess it is like a family. Your family is who you are blood related to, however people do hopefully join your family through other means! Like taking on your surname and becoming acculturated. Nationalism is that. Israel is now a collection of families and quite open to people joining through means other than being born. It just isn’t made easy. They have standards.

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join. It doesn’t matter how great they are to you, or how much they do for you. They are not your blood. This is a bit weird. It is so absolute and so mono-focussed.

    Conversely, the modern Western state would be, at best, anyone joining your family without having even met you or having any links to you at all and despising you. In fact, at worst, it is you are not your family and those people a thousand miles away who can’t read or write are now actually your family! This is plainly mad.

    • Agree: Tyrion 2
    • Replies: @Massimo Heitor

    My point though, as I think you imply you recognize, was that Israel is a global outlier on birthrates but not an outlier on nationalism.
     
    I agree with that.

    I meant in my terminology, that it is multi-ethnic because Jews are multi-ethnic.

     

    ok. In recent history, people don't think of Anglo-Saxon as an ethnic mix, they think of it as a pure distinct category. But obviously it is a mix as it is literally named as a mix of Angles and Saxons. Angles and Saxons are documented in history books, but are otherwise long forgotten as distinct identities. Japanese have ethnic mixture. Italians have ethnic mixture, etc. I still would consider all of the above ethnic groups in a political context.

    I guess it is like a family. Your family is who you are blood related to, however people do hopefully join your family through other means! Like taking on your surname and becoming acculturated. Nationalism is that. Israel is now a collection of families and quite open to people joining through means other than being born. It just isn’t made easy. They have standards.
     
    Yes! Marriage is the common route for non-blood relatives to join a family.

    That's what I think of as an ethnic group in a political context: and extended family with membership and a continuous identity based largely but not strictly by ancestral lineage.

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join.
     
    The selection of labels and word choice is extremely important in a political combat sense, but confuses the ideas. From a political combat perspective, confusing the ideas is often the point.

    "ethno-nationalism" is typically used in a pejorative sense, frequently in US + Europe to vilify people who want to keep their traditional extended family group identities, their traditional religions, cultures, and histories. And those that oppose those identities being deliberately undermined and blurred away.

    There is a big global ideological + political fight over whether different groups of people are allowed to keep their extended family-like tribal identity groups and whether they are allowed to form distinct semi-exclusive groups in which to govern themselves and have semi-exclusive nation states for themselves.

    One perspective that I find particularly hypocritical in this context is "tribalism (or nationalism) for me but not for thee".

    In the Jewish context, I see Yoram Hazony as one of many that is consistent on the pro-nationalist side. He thinks Europeans or Americans should be logically entitled to the same style of nationalism that he wants for himself and his identity. I see many the Jewish writers at Vox as consistent in the anti-nationalist sense. They believe all national and ethnic identities should be undermined and destroyed including the Jewish and Israeli identities. Then there are the Jewish political writers at the NYT, who really exemplify the "tribalism (or nationalism) for me but not for thee" mindset.
    , @Anonymous

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join. It doesn’t matter how great they are to you, or how much they do for you. They are not your blood. This is a bit weird. It is so absolute and so mono-focussed.
     
    But that's pretty much the way Ashkenazi Jews operated for centuries and centuries.
    , @Tyrion 2
    I did not mean to agree with my own comment. I meant to agree with the reply.
  153. @Hail

    Finland’s economy never recovered after the 2008 crash to the same extent as the rest of the Nordics.
     
    Finland's TFR loss from its 2008-2011 level (1.85) to its 2017 level (1.49) (see OP) is a loss of 0.36 TFR points (which, in practical terms, equals 10,000 fewer babies per year). This page gives the official the TFR data by region and year.

    It's no surprise that the lowest TFR is in the Helsinki region, population 1,488,236 (note: this population figure may constitute hate-speech in some EU member states). The Helsinki region sits at 1.38 as of 2017.

    Helsinki has 30% of the total population of Finland, so some might hypothesize that the modest TFR drop might be driven a large fall in Helsinki fertility: It is not. Helsinki's drop is actually below average.

    Finland's fertility decline is across the board and without any coherent regional or socioeconomic causation mechanism that jumps out. Here are the biggest and smallest TFR drops by region:

    TFR in 2008 / TFR in 2017 / Loss: Region of Finland
    - 1.78 / 1.61 / -0.17 points: Satakunta [Smallest drop]
    - 1.88 / 1.68 / -0.20 points: Åland Islands [2nd Smallest drop]
    - 1.70 / 1.38 / -0.32 points: Uusimaa (Helsinki) [Approx. average drop]
    - 1.85 / 1.49 / -0.36 points: Whole Country
    - 2.00 / 1.52 / -0.48 points: Lapland [2nd Largest drop]
    - 2.38 / 1.83 / -0.55 points: North Ostrobothnia [Largest drop]

    The largest-drop regions are simply those that started higher and had more space to fall.

    North Ostrobothnia's main city is Oulu, the metro area of which has half the state's population. It continues to attract new people, +63% population from 1980 to 2015 due to internal migrants. "At the end of 2015, 5,235 (2.6%) of Oulu residents were not Finnish citizens. Over 40% of them were from Asia and Oceania." These numbers are low (only ~1% of Oulu residents may be incompatible foreigners) and it doesn't seem plausible that their small presence will have directly depressed native fertility in Oulu in the 2010s.

    Lapland, otoh, is super rural and economically sluggish. It seems to be undergoing a longterm, modest brain drain, with a -10% net population loss from 1995 to 2015. A few, tiny non-Western 'beachheads' have been established up there, but collectively non-Europeans are still in the 1-2% range in Finnish Lapland, with the largest group being Myanmarese (415 people in 2017; 0.2%).

    The smallest-drop regions are also a mixed bag in socioeconomic terms; they started about even with the national average but are now well above it:

    Satakunta, like Lapland, has been in long-term population decline (-8% loss from the 1980s to mid 2010s) and wiki depicts it as not quite a Finnish Rust Belt area but having some affinity to such. Industries are energy (Satakunta produces one fourth of Finland's electricity) and agriculture. Pori is the largest city in the state (pop.: 85,000; 38% of the state's population), and its non-Western foreigner share is small, <2%. Pori's fertility is shockingly low, though, with population contraction already biting: In 2016, 722 babies were born in Pori, 1,244 Pori citizens died, and 218 new migrants came in, unspecified how many were domestic and how many international.

    The Aland Islands, off the southwest coast, are doing very well and have been steadily gaining net population. The Aland economy is "dominated by shipping, trade and tourism," and unemployment is very low. They use a lot of wind power. As for non-European foreigners in the Aland Islands, there are few, and not many at all of the most problematic sort (Muslims, Somalis): Thais at 153 people as of 2017 (0.5%) are the highest, second being Iranians at 106 people (0.3%), and third Filipinos at 72 people (0.2%).

    I am having a hard time finding a coherent narrative for why fertility declined in the 2010s in Finland. The presence of racial foreigners and Muslims on Finnish soil in non-trivial numbers, for the first time, is correlated with the decline, but the numbers do not really seem to correlate at the regional level, nor does any other narrative emerge from looking at where TFRs held up best and where they sank most.

    Just what the frigging Hell are ‘Myanmarese’ – which I assume means ‘Burmese’, (or maybe even Rohingya?), are doing in Finland, let alone Lapland.

    The quintessential tropical people moving to the frozen Arctic.

    Just, what, exactly, in the name of buggery, is going on?

    • Replies: @Pericles
    I can recall there was a lot of crying about Rohingya on Swedish TV, but as far as I could tell there was no popular enthusiasm for taking them in. A bit funny in that not even their neighbors and coreligionists in Bangladesh seems to want them, so why should we?

    However, I do recall seeing in the last year a handful of south-east asian muslim style people gliding about in the town center, so perhaps our dear state is just loading up on these essential contributors quietly.

    , @Hail

    what ... is going on?
     
    I think they are all refugee resettlements, i.e., people whose refugee lottery numbers don't do so well in the shuffle and get shipped off to Lapland. They might also lack the initiative to leave once they are dropped in by the government.

    Here is a 2017 article in the Nordic Labor Journal whose title suggests Burmese racial superiority over boring, dreary local Finns:


    Refugees bring new life to Finnish Punkalaidun, known for its coffins
    FEB 02, 2017 | Text: Bengt Östling, photo Cata Portin

    http://www.nordiclabourjournal.org/i-fokus/in-focus-2017/the-100-year-wave-hitting-nordic-labour-market/article.2017-02-01.8621719550/image

    The road to Punkalaidun is beautiful, but treacherously winding and slippery in the wintertime. This is far out into the countryside. The municipality is more than 150 kilometres north-west of Helsinki.

    The road name ”Taikayön tie” alludes to magical nights when anything can happen. For hundreds of refugees the dream has already become reality. They have been selected as quota refugees to come to Punkalaidun. [...]

    For the Burmese, Syrians or Ethiopians, the most common nationalities, most things are new. [...]
     

    The city under discussion in this article (Punkalaidun) is in the state of Pirkanmaa, whose population-change numbers suggest economic health given its steady gains in population (nearly +25% gradually gained since 1980, beating the national average [+17%]). It sits at 9% of the Finnish population.

    Pirkanmaa is no unqualified success story, though, as it has among the highest unemployment rates in Finland (14%), a number which raises the question of why refugees are being sent there and put to work in the first place when presumably some unemployed locals could get back to work.

    The state's population-by-first-language data shows a somewhat different picture today from what anyone in their 30s or older would remember of the former, defacto-ethnostate Pirkanmaa:

    Population of Pirkanmaa by first language

    1990
    Finnish: 424,101 [99.3%]
    Swedish: 1,568 [0.4%]
    English: 253 [0.1%]
    All Others: ca. 0.3%, of which English, Russian, and Estonian form nearly half and in that order.

    2017
    Finnish: 486,090 [94.9%]
    Russian: 4,199 [0.8%]
    Arabic: 2,339 [0.5%]
    Estonian: 2,224 [0.4%]
    Swedish: 1,957 [0.4%]
    Persian: 1,691 [0.3%]
    English: 1,454 [0.3%]
    Others languages: 2.4%

    Keeping in mind that these are dynamic numbers and all represent 'bridgeheads,' it's possible to imagine what Pirkanmaa's urban centers will look like by the 2040s under the current trajectory. It's a story we've seen before in NW Europe in earlier decades, just never in Finland.

    Only languages with 1,000+ speakers are listed, which means <1,000 (<0.2%) Somali speakers are officially in this state; Whatever the true of Somali(-speakers), it is far below the national, official rate of ca. 0.4%. Are they all in Helsinki?

    Here are the fertility-drop numbers for Pirkanmaa, calculated the same way as in my previous comment highlighting the 'best' and 'worst' performers:

    TFR in 2008 / TFR in 2017 / Loss: Region of Finland
    1.83 / 1.42 / -0.41 points: Pirkanmaa

    This is the fourth highest fertility drop, in absolute terms, of the nineteen Finnish states.


    Many other refugees have left the municipality after a few years, but those from Myanmar have stayed. It is also not the case that all refugees from big cities prefer to come to Finland’s big cities. If you have been living in primitive refugee camps, Punkalaidun is also a luxurious place, points out politicians and refugees both.

    The Finns Party in particular have been criticising fortune seekers who, according to common belief only expect benefits and getting everything served on a plate.
     

    The Finns Party (f.k.a. True Finns) is a soft-ethnonationalist party that has had 19% of national-legislature seats since spring 2011, and was in government as a junior partner with center-rightists from 2015 to mid 2017, at which time a kind of parliamentary coup to oust the Finns was engineered, at the end of which the Finns Party split in two: the civic-nationalist half stayed in government under a new banner (under obese frontman Timo Soini, a Finnish convert to Roman Catholicism) and the ethnonationalist-leaning half stayed loyal to the party but was now in opposition.

    The party seems to have been hurt by this affair and the attendant media campaign: The next national election is April 2019 and the Finns Party is expected to take only 10% of seats this time, with the ex-FinnsParty parliamentarian splinter group (Blue Reform) is expected to take 2-3% of seats. The pro-migrant Social Democratic Party may take up to 25% of seats and lead the new government. Or it could go on under a center-right government under the KOK party, as Finland has done all but four years since spring 1987, and under whose watch the nascent race problem has emerged. Sad.

    As for the Finnish ethnonationalist vote: The best state-level vote result for the True Finns in 2015 was in the state of Satakunta, mentioned in my post above as the state with the smallest fertility drop from 2008 to 2017:


    TFR in 2008 / TFR in 2017 / Loss: Region of Finland
    – 1.78 / 1.61 / -0.17 points: Satakunta [Smallest drop]
     
    I'd sugges that this humble little data point (the region with the highest True Finns vote in the 2010s and the lowest fertility drop over the course of the 2010s) could point to a below-the-surface political change whereby a Finnish ethnonationalist core is consolidating, and is turning/will turn the corner on low fertility. (Satakunta went from below average fertility in 2008 to above average in 2017.) It's still a long way off, though, and the outlook for Finland does seem "worse before better."
  154. Anon[426] • Disclaimer says:

    I have a theory that people who have a truly “White” genetic profile (loosely defined as minimal to no Arab, other Asian, or Black admixture) have a genetic behavioral predisposition to not procreate when in proximity to non-Whites.

    From a natural selection perspective, dropping the procreation rate around non-Whites could serve the purpose of lowering the genetic donation rate to the non-White out-group.

    It could also serve to lower the resource donation sum in any system wherein the non-White group was able to engineer a degree of socialism, leading to a faster non-White population collapse (see below).

    The underlying natural selection strategy would be to avoid improving the genetic fitness of the (faster breeding) competing group and therefore hopefully allow a smaller number of Whites a better chance at survival over the long term.

    Non-Whites procreate at a higher rate than us, and yet we exist at this point in history. Non-whites have likely been out-breeding us for tens of thousands of years if not longer. In early history, what kept them from overwhelming and eradicating us? Why are we still here? Even given technological, intellectual, and geographic advantages it would seem likely that the breeding rate of non-Whites, to include even East Asians, would have sufficed to overcome most of that advantage difference.

    Perhaps their breeding rate leads to inevitable social collapse over time, and that this has happened repeatedly to the end result of catastrophic population and civilization collapses (therefore eliminating gained knowledge). Could it be that the more prone a group is to breed, the more assured that it is that they will lack technology due to the deeper catastrophe that more dramatic population collapses bring? In turn, these hypothetical dramatic population collapses might genetically reinforce the instinct to having more children with less resources (in a bid to increase the chance that one will survive inevitable catastrophe).

    The genetically embedded strategy for White people to lower their procreation and avoid White genetic donation may be to prevent racial out-groups from gaining the genetics that would prompt them to breed more sensibly and become less prone to population collapse. It may also be to prevent better competitive competence in general.

    The population of Africa is slated to increase to some ungodly number within the next 50 years. I would bet a lot that, at some point during this time period, there will be a large population collapse within Africa, if not elsewhere, by some indeterminate means.

    From my personal perspective as a White man who lives around NAMs, this instinct to procreate less consciously manifests as not wishing any child to grow up around the dysfunctional personalities and communities of non-Whites.

    • Replies: @Hail

    “White”[s] [...] have a genetic behavioral predisposition to not procreate when in proximity to non-Whites.
     
    With a deep dive into the data, I'd bet you could find correlation on that, but how could you even begin to take a stab at causation?
  155. @Lot
    Wow the degree of Jewish control over Finland has really gone up since 2005. Who knew?

    http://darkroom-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/12/AFP_Getty-455453645-760x506.jpg

    That reminds me of the joke about the cowboy who goes into the bar and orders ten whiskies. Drinks them all, then orders eight whiskies. Drinks these as well, then orders six whiskies. After he drank these, too, he (now visibly drunk) says: “I don’t understand. I’m drinking less and less, yet I’m getting drunker and drunker…”

    • Replies: @Lot
    That's a good joke, but I'm to drunk to see the connection.
  156. @MKP
    Largely off-topic - but reading these replies, seems like some of you are in need of some good news ...

    For everyone who's ever criticized Trump for not taking decisive executive action instead of waiting for a hostile Congress to act, google ICE / North Carolina / raids. Short summary: Charlotte, NC and several other cities and counties decided they would no longer forward immigration statuses of prisoners to the federal government. So Trump unleashes ICE on the area - multiple large workplace raids over the past week.

    No warnings, no "here's your summons to appear in court next month." Those without proof of valid immigration status get put in the back of the van.

    At a hotel in Burlington, NC, rumors abound that a team of ICE agents is staying there. A group of leftist protestors approach the hotel desk and demand that they kick out the federal agents. Hotel staff laughs and says "no." Leftist agitators grumble and leave without doing anything about it.

    Small numbers, as of now, when compared to the massive illegal alien presence in NC. But it's a start, and the usual liberal hand-wringing doesn't appear to be having any effect.

    “A group of leftist protestors approach the hotel desk and demand that they kick out the federal agents. Hotel staff laughs and says “no.” ”

    Good for them!

  157. @Tyrion 2

    One piece I agree with you on and disagree with Another Dad: lots of nations are ethno-centric not just Israel. Maybe even most nations. China is very ethno-centric. Singapore is. Japan is. Most humans care deeply about various identity groups that they belong to.
     
    I'm basically happy to use either your or "AnotherDad's" definition. My point though, as I think you imply you recognise, was that Israel is a global outlier on birthrates but not an outlier on nationalism.

    The Jewish identity is kind of an ethnic identity in many ways. It has tribal membership primarily inherited through birth lineage. The nation of Israel officially asserts the ethnic-like Jewish identity as the supreme identity of the nation.

    Israel has non-Jewish citizens and African citizens. It’s “multi-ethnic” in that sense.
     

    I meant in my terminology, that it is multi-ethnic because Jews are multi-ethnic. Basically, how Jews define as a people is not the same as how ethnicity is generally defined. It also isn't merely religious.

    Actually, the old (true) definition of "American", that you share a bunch of cultural values or are related, is quite similar to Judaism in the Israeli sense. In other words, it is basically just nationalism with a bit of mystical archaic religious stuff mixed in. Lega Nord in Italy (now just Lega) practises something similar too. It has a black African Senator - because he is an Italian nationalist.

    I guess it is like a family. Your family is who you are blood related to, however people do hopefully join your family through other means! Like taking on your surname and becoming acculturated. Nationalism is that. Israel is now a collection of families and quite open to people joining through means other than being born. It just isn't made easy. They have standards.

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join. It doesn't matter how great they are to you, or how much they do for you. They are not your blood. This is a bit weird. It is so absolute and so mono-focussed.

    Conversely, the modern Western state would be, at best, anyone joining your family without having even met you or having any links to you at all and despising you. In fact, at worst, it is you are not your family and those people a thousand miles away who can't read or write are now actually your family! This is plainly mad.

    My point though, as I think you imply you recognize, was that Israel is a global outlier on birthrates but not an outlier on nationalism.

    I agree with that.

    I meant in my terminology, that it is multi-ethnic because Jews are multi-ethnic.

    ok. In recent history, people don’t think of Anglo-Saxon as an ethnic mix, they think of it as a pure distinct category. But obviously it is a mix as it is literally named as a mix of Angles and Saxons. Angles and Saxons are documented in history books, but are otherwise long forgotten as distinct identities. Japanese have ethnic mixture. Italians have ethnic mixture, etc. I still would consider all of the above ethnic groups in a political context.

    I guess it is like a family. Your family is who you are blood related to, however people do hopefully join your family through other means! Like taking on your surname and becoming acculturated. Nationalism is that. Israel is now a collection of families and quite open to people joining through means other than being born. It just isn’t made easy. They have standards.

    Yes! Marriage is the common route for non-blood relatives to join a family.

    That’s what I think of as an ethnic group in a political context: and extended family with membership and a continuous identity based largely but not strictly by ancestral lineage.

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join.

    The selection of labels and word choice is extremely important in a political combat sense, but confuses the ideas. From a political combat perspective, confusing the ideas is often the point.

    “ethno-nationalism” is typically used in a pejorative sense, frequently in US + Europe to vilify people who want to keep their traditional extended family group identities, their traditional religions, cultures, and histories. And those that oppose those identities being deliberately undermined and blurred away.

    There is a big global ideological + political fight over whether different groups of people are allowed to keep their extended family-like tribal identity groups and whether they are allowed to form distinct semi-exclusive groups in which to govern themselves and have semi-exclusive nation states for themselves.

    One perspective that I find particularly hypocritical in this context is “tribalism (or nationalism) for me but not for thee”.

    In the Jewish context, I see Yoram Hazony as one of many that is consistent on the pro-nationalist side. He thinks Europeans or Americans should be logically entitled to the same style of nationalism that he wants for himself and his identity. I see many the Jewish writers at Vox as consistent in the anti-nationalist sense. They believe all national and ethnic identities should be undermined and destroyed including the Jewish and Israeli identities. Then there are the Jewish political writers at the NYT, who really exemplify the “tribalism (or nationalism) for me but not for thee” mindset.

    • Replies: @Anon

    In the Jewish context, I see Yoram Hazony as one of many that is consistent on the pro-nationalist side. He thinks Europeans or Americans should be logically entitled to the same style of nationalism that he wants for himself and his identity. I see many the Jewish writers at Vox as consistent in the anti-nationalist sense. They believe all national and ethnic identities should be undermined and destroyed including the Jewish and Israeli identities. Then there are the Jewish political writers at the NYT, who really exemplify the “tribalism (or nationalism) for me but not for thee” mindset.
     
    None of that can be taken at face value, assuming that your political summary is accurate, given that Jewish identity at its root is ethno-supremacist.

    Jewish identity being defined by the Torah. The core of which being the Tanakh, which advocates for the nation destruction / submission of all other nations to Israel (a view that is the defining political characteristic of ethnic supremacism, in one of its possible phrasings).

    Jewish texts that comment on the Tanakh get worse in their supremacist views: predicting the eventual genocide of all non-Jews in declaring that all non-Jews represent represent an impurity that must and will be one day cleansed from the Earth.

    It would be disingenuous to try to assert that the political core of Judaism does not take every word in its Torah seriously or that Judaism is not fundamentalist at its political core: even if we were to not go beyond the prescriptions of the relatively milder Tanakh that simply calls for submission or national destruction of anyone who does not serve the Jews and worship the Jewish god (which long ago became an explicit metaphor for the Jewish people in Jewish writing).

    The defining factor of mainstream political Jewish identity is to take the primary prescriptions, themes, and prophecies of the Tanakh seriously. Therefore, to be Jewish is to be an ethnopolitical and spiritual supremacist. If you are Jewish and not these things, then your ideological status as a Jew is questionable. Good news: the Rabbis will still consider you to be a racial Jew and you will benefit from Torah-directed Jewish political action regardless.

    Its my view that most, if not all, Jewish political speech and action has to be considered to be opposition and controlled opposition in the public sphere: given that any expressed Jewish identity implies an out-group destruction agenda.

    In practice, look at what we have: essentially a bunch of Jews arguing with one another on both sides of the isle; supposedly representing the interests of hundreds of millions of non-Jews in the process (not likely).

    The Jewish New York Times prints a propaganda article, and Jewish Breitbart prints a response. etc, etc. Gentile owned (and much lower readership) publications like the Daily Caller are the occasional exception to the Jewish-media rule, but then again Tucker Carslon's job doesn't exactly allow him the freedom to critique Jews within any format. Which makes his content much less threatening to the Jewish political machine, to the point that it can de facto serve as controlled opposition.

    This situation is obviously dangerous for those non-Jews: two supposedly different factions of an ethno-supremacist and fundamentalist religion arguing over the fate of non-members. The situation would obviously channel the democracy-critiquing metaphor of two wolfs and a sheep arguing over what is for dinner, except in this case it seems to be the wolf arguing with itself in regard to the sheep.

  158. @RadicalCenter
    Yes, and the best lack children, while the worst have children at their expense.
    Goodbye, Finland.
    Tragic and unnecessary.

    Guess who’s next?

  159. @dfordoom

    but I wonder how you can square that this lady was Miss Israel with your perception of the country?
     
    This is what people who blame the Jews for everything overlook. The poz is going to destroy Israel just as certainly as it's going to destroy western nations.

    This is what people who blame the Jews for everything overlook. The poz is going to destroy Israel just as certainly as it’s going to destroy western nations.

    They’ll turn off “the poz” once Western nations are destroyed. That is why it is on in the first place.

    • Replies: @dfordoom


    This is what people who blame the Jews for everything overlook. The poz is going to destroy Israel just as certainly as it’s going to destroy western nations.
     
    They’ll turn off “the poz” once Western nations are destroyed. That is why it is on in the first place.
     
    You can't simply turn off the poz. It has a momentum that is almost impossible to stop. And it doesn't discriminate. It destroys all societies.
  160. @Thea
    There appears to be no way to induce atheists to have many babies.

    Bingo. Why should they? We die and that’s it.

    The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their heats while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Ecc. 9:3.

  161. Anonymous[410] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tyrion 2

    One piece I agree with you on and disagree with Another Dad: lots of nations are ethno-centric not just Israel. Maybe even most nations. China is very ethno-centric. Singapore is. Japan is. Most humans care deeply about various identity groups that they belong to.
     
    I'm basically happy to use either your or "AnotherDad's" definition. My point though, as I think you imply you recognise, was that Israel is a global outlier on birthrates but not an outlier on nationalism.

    The Jewish identity is kind of an ethnic identity in many ways. It has tribal membership primarily inherited through birth lineage. The nation of Israel officially asserts the ethnic-like Jewish identity as the supreme identity of the nation.

    Israel has non-Jewish citizens and African citizens. It’s “multi-ethnic” in that sense.
     

    I meant in my terminology, that it is multi-ethnic because Jews are multi-ethnic. Basically, how Jews define as a people is not the same as how ethnicity is generally defined. It also isn't merely religious.

    Actually, the old (true) definition of "American", that you share a bunch of cultural values or are related, is quite similar to Judaism in the Israeli sense. In other words, it is basically just nationalism with a bit of mystical archaic religious stuff mixed in. Lega Nord in Italy (now just Lega) practises something similar too. It has a black African Senator - because he is an Italian nationalist.

    I guess it is like a family. Your family is who you are blood related to, however people do hopefully join your family through other means! Like taking on your surname and becoming acculturated. Nationalism is that. Israel is now a collection of families and quite open to people joining through means other than being born. It just isn't made easy. They have standards.

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join. It doesn't matter how great they are to you, or how much they do for you. They are not your blood. This is a bit weird. It is so absolute and so mono-focussed.

    Conversely, the modern Western state would be, at best, anyone joining your family without having even met you or having any links to you at all and despising you. In fact, at worst, it is you are not your family and those people a thousand miles away who can't read or write are now actually your family! This is plainly mad.

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join. It doesn’t matter how great they are to you, or how much they do for you. They are not your blood. This is a bit weird. It is so absolute and so mono-focussed.

    But that’s pretty much the way Ashkenazi Jews operated for centuries and centuries.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    No, it isn't.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Well, it appears that tens of thousands of Jewish men (out of a far smaller population than today) took Italian nonJewish wives over the centuries. See Jon Entine column about Ashkenazi Jewish gene study, at Genetic Literacy Project.
  162. @Pericles
    Note that Nokia is still around as a telco vendor, but of course no longer is the leader in handset manufacturing.

    Regarding the fall of Nokia, I'd say it started with a bit of hubris, too much middle management infighting and too little CEO paranoia about competition while the smartphone train was leaving the station; then choosing the wrong new CEO; then the new CEO choosing the wrong new strategy. Poof, gone.

    Nicely put.

    Also a template for the decline of the USA:

    Regarding the fall of the traditional USA, I’d say it started with a bit of hubris, too much bureaucratic infighting and too little political leadership paranoia about competition while the demographic train was leaving the station; then choosing the wrong new president; then the new president choosing the wrong new strategy. Poof, gone.

  163. @Lot
    "these Haredi welfare parasites"

    They aren't parasites, their job is to make more Jews, and they're doing it!

    It is also eugenic:

    1. They are about 80% full Ashkenazi (versus less than half of the rest of Israel)
    2. Some of them (about 45% of working age men) work. The ones on "permanent Torah scholar" welfare probably are mostly from the smartest half.
    3. They breed young, which is further eugenic.

    Lot, maybe it’s your Jewish half generating the confusion but smart != “not a parasite”.

    We’ve got plenty of smart parasites here in the USA on Wall Street and in Washington.

    These Haredi do not (at least most of them) produce and basically loot other people–looting done by the government–for their food, clothing shelter. (Plus skipping their miltiary service obligation.) That’s called being a “parasite”. (Welfare case division.)

    And eugenic? Maybe. I’d want data. The Ashkenazi are smart folks–IQs seeming to run around 110 in the US–but i’d be very surprised if the Haredi are in that ballpark. And dedicating yourself to studying the Torah while “the world is full of interest” does not seem like something that would attract genuinely smart young men. But smart or not, they are parasites.

    BTW, the welfare policy the Haredi are milking is pretty much the exact opposite of the tax deduction policy your propose. If eugenic fertility is the concern–and yes it always should be–that’s what the Israelis should be doing. And they’d be boosting the fertility of actually smart, competent, productive Israelis–religious, traditional and secular.

    • Replies: @Lot
    "i’d be very surprised if the Haredi are in that ballpark"

    Regression to the mean means they are probably close to the AJ average.

    Even if a little below, they still bring up the average in a country full of non-AJs, including Arabs, Druze, Yemeni Jews (well under 100) and Sephardi and 3/4 Russians (likely around 100).

    My natalist proposal was much more eugenic than Orban's. You need to have a lot of earned income to get it, and it goes up for people in higher brackets.

    Israel's haredi policy isn't ideal from this standpoint, but having 15% of its population with a 6.2TFR has a logic of its own!

    As they grow in size, they are being forced to work and indirectly serve in the military. I think their democratic institutions will figure this out fairly.
  164. @Tyrion 2

    That said, you’re argument–a black beauty queen–is ridiculous. That means …. nothing. That’s the cheesiest most meaningless version of PC virtue signalling. What has the nation actually done with blacks? Tried to keep them out and send the ones there home!
     
    No, they fly them in, house them well, give them years of free education and a full assimilation programme with paid "friends" and everything.

    This is what they do for all Jewish incomers. Indeed, they'd do it with all full Orthodox converts.

    I just wondered if that fit your definition of "ethno"-nationalism? I'd say it is instead a rather different beast, though with plenty of correlation - because they're both nationalisms of sorts.

    As for your dismissal of my other examples. I think you're wandering down the no true Scotsman fallacy. I mean, other than Hungary, is Israel, of the 190+ countries, the only "ethno"-nationalist state? Even while they fly in Ethiopians to take part in even cushier assimilation programmes than Norway? You know, if you're willing to do the full conversion process you can get exactly the same treatment?

    I guess my query is two fold. Israel is not the "ethno"-nationalist state you think. It is very much multi-ethnic, extremely so in fact. And other states that fit the bill don't have surging birth rates.

    Tyrion, Massimo Heitor tossed up some more points in response.

    But seriously. I said ethno-nationalism–sense of community\purpose\connection-to-the-future is key and gave an extended ethno-nationalist program, a good chunk of which was an explicit government pro-fertility program.

    Your, the-evidence-doesn’t-support-you included China a nation which had a long extreme *anti-fertility* government program.

    At that point, that point what more is there to say?

    Then your Israel’s not-ethno-nationalist assertion … buttressed by the incredibly compelling evidence of the cheesy virtue signalling of a black beauty queen. (From the tiny ethiopean jewish community. While in fact Israel’s taken great pains to get rid of Africans and stop them from entering.)

    ~~~

    Again. I stand by my assertion. The key to fertility and a future will be explicit ethno-nationalism ideology and policies that give people a larger sense of “belonging” to a nation and connection to the past and future.

    It also makes people’s lives richer and makes them happier throughout the hatch-match-dispatch cycle of their lives.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Perhaps it would be helpful if you were to offer your definition of ethno-nationalism? It seems likely that we are not operating with the same one.
    , @Massimo Heitor

    But seriously. I said ethno-nationalism–sense of community\purpose\connection-to-the-future is key and gave an extended ethno-nationalist program, a good chunk of which was an explicit government pro-fertility program.

    Your, the-evidence-doesn’t-support-you included China a nation which had a long extreme *anti-fertility* government program.

    At that point, that point what more is there to say?
     
    China is absolutely ethno-nationlist. Yes, they had an anti-fertility program, which is backwards in my eyes and to this crowd. I imagine many rich Chinese got upset at all the poor Chinese having large families, similar to how, at one point, the English were annoyed by the Catholic Irish having large, poor families.
  165. About Finland: many Finns would not agree with my analysis, they never do, but that’s their problem.

    The declining birth rate has a number of reasons. I will not even try to explain them as it has something to do with a misplaced believe in education, but a declining birth rate is a correct response to the current situation and to what can be expected in foreseeable future. It is because there will not be jobs in Finland for supporting a population as large as now. Because of this simple reason, taking more foreigners is about the most stupid thing that still can be done.

    I say still, as the really stupid moves were already made and cannot be taken back as the money was already lost. The first was releasing capital movement as joining EU required it. The second was fixing the currency to the EU currency, also done in order to join EU. A heavily propagandistic campaign was carried out for joining EU and the political elite managed to fool the majority.

    Nokia’s temporary success was very harmful as it gave the impression that Finland could do well in EU. I tried to explain the issue with a ruler and a compass drawing a circle centered on the core of the EU, but nobody believed me as Nokia was doing so great. The final result of the collapse of Nokia mobiles was totally expected and could not have happened otherwise as the Finnish policy and geography dictated it.

    The basic truth is that Finland is too high up and to the east, unlike Sweden which is more to the south, and it has very modest natural resources, unlike Norway. A location like that is always in a disadvantage when deciding a new location for any investment. Foreign capital that came to Finland after releasing capital movements and joining EU was only for buying profitable Finnish enterprises. The concepts and innovations these enterprises have got copied and will finally be moved elsewhere, either closer to the center or to the third world. As long as capital movements were restricted, Finnish capital – though small as it was – was invested in Finland, which kept the industry in a competitive level. Investments in Finland fell after releasing capital movements, but unfortunately it was masked by some success stories, like Nokia, and the elite ignored the unavoidability of this mechanism. Later they noticed the truth, but it was too late. These intellectual giants, by the way, were not leftists this time. They were moderate rightists and praised themselves as economy experts. They believed everything the land-of-the-free super-geniuses told them.

    There is another basic truth in a location such as the one we are discussing. In a place like that a modern society must be supported by export: it is not a tourist county, not much grows, no oil. Naturally it can support about 2-3 million people, not more. Only very few fields have a natural advantage and can earn by export, like forests grow, though slowly. This money must be collected by taxes, which have to be relatively high, in order to support other fields. These other fields also need customs protection because the location is less favorable and they cannot compete long on totally free market. Removing customs in the EU had the expected result: a crash in 1993 caused by preparing joining and a crash in 2008 and a decline since. As export industry must be taxed in this model, the currency must be devaluated every now and then in order to keep the prices in the international market level. This is naturally not possible in EU.

    Combining these two basic truths it follows that producing almost anything is less profitable there than somewhere else. The money to divide must come from export since it does not grow in the land because of the weather or in the sea/lakes because they is what they are and there are only limited natural resources, which means that the few export products, like wood or chemical industry products must support the rest, but cannot be given a boost by devaluation, the population must be reduced: there can be: some export industry, sales of foreign products, and a limited public sector. And that’s about it.

    Just to verify my point, let us notice that Northern states of the USA (without oil or in a good position to an ocean) are somewhat below Finland, which rather well shows the direction: without borders less fortunate areas do not do so well. Finland (GDP per capita 45,700 US$, area 330,000 km2, population 5 million), Montana (GDP per capita 39,400 US$, area 381,000 km2, population 1 million), Maine (GDP per capita 38,900 US$, are 91,600 km2, population 1.3 million). That’s the way you go when being a remote part of a larger economic area. A population of about 2 million like in 1870, some paper industry factories and a gold mine may be the future for Finland. But they were asked and voted for it. It you want to create a working society in a less fortunate location with a fairly large population living on export, then do as it can be done. So, a declining birth rate is a good direction. There will be enough of Finns. So far the problem is not foreigners, but immigration should be restricted as there will not be work places for newcomers.

    • Replies: @AnonFinn

    The basic truth is that Finland is too high up and to the east, unlike Sweden which is more to the south, and it has very modest natural resources, unlike Norway. A location like that is always in a disadvantage when deciding a new location for any investment.
     
    How about all the natural riches in e.g. Hong Kong and Singapore?
    Did you now that western populations in low income rural and (declining) industrial areas also have worse polygenic risk scores for educational attainment?
    >degenerate baseline
    >progressively lower quality peripheral population due to meritocracy and selective migration to academic growth centers
    >stagnant growth in fly-over states
    >blah blah Montana, Maine...

    Naturally it can support about 2-3 million people, not more.
     
    I would also argue that population density can be a harsh limiting factor on growth on Information era. If a firm X needs e.g. 100 workers with IQ 130+ and a masters degree you would realistically need a population of >>10^4 to maximally cash in on economies of scale within commuting distance even if all the workers were capable and willing to work for the one company.
    In 1870 Finland was maybe a third poorer (per capita, ppp) than modern sub-saharan Africa and as a thought example halving the population in all Finnish cities would be awful for businessess and families: not enough information workers, declining culture and sport centers, no specialiced schools. Escalating dysgenic migration.

    Foreign capital that came to Finland after releasing capital movements and joining EU was only for buying profitable Finnish enterprises.
     
    Like the mining companies that cannot create a profit even with state subsidies?

    Combining these two basic truths it follows that producing almost anything is less profitable there than somewhere else
     
    Comparative advantage, econ101.
  166. @Anonymous

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join. It doesn’t matter how great they are to you, or how much they do for you. They are not your blood. This is a bit weird. It is so absolute and so mono-focussed.
     
    But that's pretty much the way Ashkenazi Jews operated for centuries and centuries.

    No, it isn’t.

  167. @AnotherDad
    Lot, maybe it's your Jewish half generating the confusion but smart != "not a parasite".

    We've got plenty of smart parasites here in the USA on Wall Street and in Washington.

    These Haredi do not (at least most of them) produce and basically loot other people--looting done by the government--for their food, clothing shelter. (Plus skipping their miltiary service obligation.) That's called being a "parasite". (Welfare case division.)

    And eugenic? Maybe. I'd want data. The Ashkenazi are smart folks--IQs seeming to run around 110 in the US--but i'd be very surprised if the Haredi are in that ballpark. And dedicating yourself to studying the Torah while "the world is full of interest" does not seem like something that would attract genuinely smart young men. But smart or not, they are parasites.


    BTW, the welfare policy the Haredi are milking is pretty much the exact opposite of the tax deduction policy your propose. If eugenic fertility is the concern--and yes it always should be--that's what the Israelis should be doing. And they'd be boosting the fertility of actually smart, competent, productive Israelis--religious, traditional and secular.

    “i’d be very surprised if the Haredi are in that ballpark”

    Regression to the mean means they are probably close to the AJ average.

    Even if a little below, they still bring up the average in a country full of non-AJs, including Arabs, Druze, Yemeni Jews (well under 100) and Sephardi and 3/4 Russians (likely around 100).

    My natalist proposal was much more eugenic than Orban’s. You need to have a lot of earned income to get it, and it goes up for people in higher brackets.

    Israel’s haredi policy isn’t ideal from this standpoint, but having 15% of its population with a 6.2TFR has a logic of its own!

    As they grow in size, they are being forced to work and indirectly serve in the military. I think their democratic institutions will figure this out fairly.

  168. @AnotherDad
    Tyrion, Massimo Heitor tossed up some more points in response.

    But seriously. I said ethno-nationalism--sense of community\purpose\connection-to-the-future is key and gave an extended ethno-nationalist program, a good chunk of which was an explicit government pro-fertility program.

    Your, the-evidence-doesn't-support-you included China a nation which had a long extreme *anti-fertility* government program.

    At that point, that point what more is there to say?


    Then your Israel's not-ethno-nationalist assertion ... buttressed by the incredibly compelling evidence of the cheesy virtue signalling of a black beauty queen. (From the tiny ethiopean jewish community. While in fact Israel's taken great pains to get rid of Africans and stop them from entering.)

    ~~~

    Again. I stand by my assertion. The key to fertility and a future will be explicit ethno-nationalism ideology and policies that give people a larger sense of "belonging" to a nation and connection to the past and future.

    It also makes people's lives richer and makes them happier throughout the hatch-match-dispatch cycle of their lives.

    Perhaps it would be helpful if you were to offer your definition of ethno-nationalism? It seems likely that we are not operating with the same one.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    I suppose my point is that over half of Jewish Israelis are of at least partial Mizrahi descent (Yemenese, Iraqi, Moroccan etc), while the same is true for Ashkenazi (German, Russian, French), even while Ethiopian Jews are 2% as well.

    Those, in total, are about 70% of the total population, with the rest being myriad other groups.

    It simply isn't a state that is big on racial purity.
  169. @Tyrion 2
    Perhaps it would be helpful if you were to offer your definition of ethno-nationalism? It seems likely that we are not operating with the same one.

    I suppose my point is that over half of Jewish Israelis are of at least partial Mizrahi descent (Yemenese, Iraqi, Moroccan etc), while the same is true for Ashkenazi (German, Russian, French), even while Ethiopian Jews are 2% as well.

    Those, in total, are about 70% of the total population, with the rest being myriad other groups.

    It simply isn’t a state that is big on racial purity.

    • Replies: @Anon

    I suppose my point is that over half of Jewish Israelis are of at least partial Mizrahi descent (Yemenese, Iraqi, Moroccan etc), while the same is true for Ashkenazi (German, Russian, French), even while Ethiopian Jews are 2% as well.

    Those, in total, are about 70% of the total population, with the rest being myriad other groups.

    It simply isn’t a state that is big on racial purity.
     
    Your definition of race is impoverished.

    Any state that uncritically maintains groups who have serious inbreeding genetic risks within any union of two members of a sub-group (ie: Ashkeanzim) by definition supports groups who are too racially close even to the taste of mother nature.

    This genetic closeness, especially as the number of such group expands, defines both race and the degree to which a group can be labeled as such. Nothing else does.

    Those Jewish groups maintain the same inbred genetic core wherever they go, no matter who they live among, and so to imagine that they can more easily do so in Israel is no stretch of the imagination.

    It has always been politically convenient for inbred and racially zealous Jews to point to their ideological group's genetic outliers in order to muster a weak effort to distract from their racialism. It has always helped to have Jewish media pronouncing itself as the only legitimate judge of such claims (dissenting analysis from anywhere else being labeled as antisemitic and thus invalid) , and their consistent validation of these weak arguments has always been predictable.

    Proper analysis would never be left on the table for any White gentile group target of the Jewish media when it chose to attack their group as apolitical entity. That being said, no politically significant White gentile group approaches the successful racialism of the Ashkenazim (for example).
  170. @Tyrion 2

    One piece I agree with you on and disagree with Another Dad: lots of nations are ethno-centric not just Israel. Maybe even most nations. China is very ethno-centric. Singapore is. Japan is. Most humans care deeply about various identity groups that they belong to.
     
    I'm basically happy to use either your or "AnotherDad's" definition. My point though, as I think you imply you recognise, was that Israel is a global outlier on birthrates but not an outlier on nationalism.

    The Jewish identity is kind of an ethnic identity in many ways. It has tribal membership primarily inherited through birth lineage. The nation of Israel officially asserts the ethnic-like Jewish identity as the supreme identity of the nation.

    Israel has non-Jewish citizens and African citizens. It’s “multi-ethnic” in that sense.
     

    I meant in my terminology, that it is multi-ethnic because Jews are multi-ethnic. Basically, how Jews define as a people is not the same as how ethnicity is generally defined. It also isn't merely religious.

    Actually, the old (true) definition of "American", that you share a bunch of cultural values or are related, is quite similar to Judaism in the Israeli sense. In other words, it is basically just nationalism with a bit of mystical archaic religious stuff mixed in. Lega Nord in Italy (now just Lega) practises something similar too. It has a black African Senator - because he is an Italian nationalist.

    I guess it is like a family. Your family is who you are blood related to, however people do hopefully join your family through other means! Like taking on your surname and becoming acculturated. Nationalism is that. Israel is now a collection of families and quite open to people joining through means other than being born. It just isn't made easy. They have standards.

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join. It doesn't matter how great they are to you, or how much they do for you. They are not your blood. This is a bit weird. It is so absolute and so mono-focussed.

    Conversely, the modern Western state would be, at best, anyone joining your family without having even met you or having any links to you at all and despising you. In fact, at worst, it is you are not your family and those people a thousand miles away who can't read or write are now actually your family! This is plainly mad.

    I did not mean to agree with my own comment. I meant to agree with the reply.

  171. @Clyde

    Anon253’s link shows the average Helsinki Somali has 3.5 TFR, while Finn women it is one third of this.
     
    40,000 Somalis in Finland and they are cranking up that heat to Kingdom Come 9 months a year. And the average yellow vest Finn taxpayers is paying for it. Imagining myself as a Somali .... I am thinking BumFunk Finland is the last place (via life's immigration lottery) I want to land. I will be pining to somehow, some way to crash myself into the UK, preferably London. With max bennies galore there and lower temps.
    This ongoing Kamala Harris stylized invasion of the European founded world sucks. By this I mean USA, Canada, Europe, Australia and NZ.

    I am thinking BumFunk Finland is the last place (via life’s immigration lottery) I want to land. I will be pining to somehow, some way to crash myself into the UK, preferably London.

    Well, not much is stopping you from collecting benefits in several countries. And have some patience, because at some point you can travel freely in the Schengen area. With that said, I see a lot of Somalis in the (Swedish) city/town I’m in. They got into scamming the welfare state pretty quickly, so maybe they enjoy the surroundings.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    Thanks for all your Sverige commentary at unz. Unfortunately I have only spent one warm idyllic August day there a while back. Came into Malmo via ferry fr Denmark. Then drove w friends in a Swedish made automobile about 20 miles north to a hobby/farm. We cut down nettles with a scythe and ate delicious goose berries off their bushes. Ripe and sweet at their peak. Nature has its own poetry.
  172. @Anonymous
    Just what the frigging Hell are 'Myanmarese' - which I assume means 'Burmese', (or maybe even Rohingya?), are doing in Finland, let alone Lapland.

    The quintessential tropical people moving to the frozen Arctic.

    Just, what, exactly, in the name of buggery, is going on?

    I can recall there was a lot of crying about Rohingya on Swedish TV, but as far as I could tell there was no popular enthusiasm for taking them in. A bit funny in that not even their neighbors and coreligionists in Bangladesh seems to want them, so why should we?

    However, I do recall seeing in the last year a handful of south-east asian muslim style people gliding about in the town center, so perhaps our dear state is just loading up on these essential contributors quietly.

  173. @Anonymous

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join. It doesn’t matter how great they are to you, or how much they do for you. They are not your blood. This is a bit weird. It is so absolute and so mono-focussed.
     
    But that's pretty much the way Ashkenazi Jews operated for centuries and centuries.

    Well, it appears that tens of thousands of Jewish men (out of a far smaller population than today) took Italian nonJewish wives over the centuries. See Jon Entine column about Ashkenazi Jewish gene study, at Genetic Literacy Project.

  174. Anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @Massimo Heitor

    My point though, as I think you imply you recognize, was that Israel is a global outlier on birthrates but not an outlier on nationalism.
     
    I agree with that.

    I meant in my terminology, that it is multi-ethnic because Jews are multi-ethnic.

     

    ok. In recent history, people don't think of Anglo-Saxon as an ethnic mix, they think of it as a pure distinct category. But obviously it is a mix as it is literally named as a mix of Angles and Saxons. Angles and Saxons are documented in history books, but are otherwise long forgotten as distinct identities. Japanese have ethnic mixture. Italians have ethnic mixture, etc. I still would consider all of the above ethnic groups in a political context.

    I guess it is like a family. Your family is who you are blood related to, however people do hopefully join your family through other means! Like taking on your surname and becoming acculturated. Nationalism is that. Israel is now a collection of families and quite open to people joining through means other than being born. It just isn’t made easy. They have standards.
     
    Yes! Marriage is the common route for non-blood relatives to join a family.

    That's what I think of as an ethnic group in a political context: and extended family with membership and a continuous identity based largely but not strictly by ancestral lineage.

    On the other hand, ethno-nationalism would be just you having your family and no one being able to join.
     
    The selection of labels and word choice is extremely important in a political combat sense, but confuses the ideas. From a political combat perspective, confusing the ideas is often the point.

    "ethno-nationalism" is typically used in a pejorative sense, frequently in US + Europe to vilify people who want to keep their traditional extended family group identities, their traditional religions, cultures, and histories. And those that oppose those identities being deliberately undermined and blurred away.

    There is a big global ideological + political fight over whether different groups of people are allowed to keep their extended family-like tribal identity groups and whether they are allowed to form distinct semi-exclusive groups in which to govern themselves and have semi-exclusive nation states for themselves.

    One perspective that I find particularly hypocritical in this context is "tribalism (or nationalism) for me but not for thee".

    In the Jewish context, I see Yoram Hazony as one of many that is consistent on the pro-nationalist side. He thinks Europeans or Americans should be logically entitled to the same style of nationalism that he wants for himself and his identity. I see many the Jewish writers at Vox as consistent in the anti-nationalist sense. They believe all national and ethnic identities should be undermined and destroyed including the Jewish and Israeli identities. Then there are the Jewish political writers at the NYT, who really exemplify the "tribalism (or nationalism) for me but not for thee" mindset.

    In the Jewish context, I see Yoram Hazony as one of many that is consistent on the pro-nationalist side. He thinks Europeans or Americans should be logically entitled to the same style of nationalism that he wants for himself and his identity. I see many the Jewish writers at Vox as consistent in the anti-nationalist sense. They believe all national and ethnic identities should be undermined and destroyed including the Jewish and Israeli identities. Then there are the Jewish political writers at the NYT, who really exemplify the “tribalism (or nationalism) for me but not for thee” mindset.

    None of that can be taken at face value, assuming that your political summary is accurate, given that Jewish identity at its root is ethno-supremacist.

    Jewish identity being defined by the Torah. The core of which being the Tanakh, which advocates for the nation destruction / submission of all other nations to Israel (a view that is the defining political characteristic of ethnic supremacism, in one of its possible phrasings).

    Jewish texts that comment on the Tanakh get worse in their supremacist views: predicting the eventual genocide of all non-Jews in declaring that all non-Jews represent represent an impurity that must and will be one day cleansed from the Earth.

    It would be disingenuous to try to assert that the political core of Judaism does not take every word in its Torah seriously or that Judaism is not fundamentalist at its political core: even if we were to not go beyond the prescriptions of the relatively milder Tanakh that simply calls for submission or national destruction of anyone who does not serve the Jews and worship the Jewish god (which long ago became an explicit metaphor for the Jewish people in Jewish writing).

    The defining factor of mainstream political Jewish identity is to take the primary prescriptions, themes, and prophecies of the Tanakh seriously. Therefore, to be Jewish is to be an ethnopolitical and spiritual supremacist. If you are Jewish and not these things, then your ideological status as a Jew is questionable. Good news: the Rabbis will still consider you to be a racial Jew and you will benefit from Torah-directed Jewish political action regardless.

    Its my view that most, if not all, Jewish political speech and action has to be considered to be opposition and controlled opposition in the public sphere: given that any expressed Jewish identity implies an out-group destruction agenda.

    In practice, look at what we have: essentially a bunch of Jews arguing with one another on both sides of the isle; supposedly representing the interests of hundreds of millions of non-Jews in the process (not likely).

    The Jewish New York Times prints a propaganda article, and Jewish Breitbart prints a response. etc, etc. Gentile owned (and much lower readership) publications like the Daily Caller are the occasional exception to the Jewish-media rule, but then again Tucker Carslon’s job doesn’t exactly allow him the freedom to critique Jews within any format. Which makes his content much less threatening to the Jewish political machine, to the point that it can de facto serve as controlled opposition.

    This situation is obviously dangerous for those non-Jews: two supposedly different factions of an ethno-supremacist and fundamentalist religion arguing over the fate of non-members. The situation would obviously channel the democracy-critiquing metaphor of two wolfs and a sheep arguing over what is for dinner, except in this case it seems to be the wolf arguing with itself in regard to the sheep.

    • Replies: @Massimo Heitor

    None of that can be taken at face value, assuming that your political summary is accurate, given that Jewish identity at its root is ethno-supremacist.

    Jewish identity being defined by the Torah. The core of which being the Tanakh, which advocates for the nation destruction / submission of all other nations to Israel
     
    This sounds crazy. I don't believe in any of this. This sounds conspiracy-ish and anti-semitic.
  175. Anon[267] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tyrion 2
    I suppose my point is that over half of Jewish Israelis are of at least partial Mizrahi descent (Yemenese, Iraqi, Moroccan etc), while the same is true for Ashkenazi (German, Russian, French), even while Ethiopian Jews are 2% as well.

    Those, in total, are about 70% of the total population, with the rest being myriad other groups.

    It simply isn't a state that is big on racial purity.

    I suppose my point is that over half of Jewish Israelis are of at least partial Mizrahi descent (Yemenese, Iraqi, Moroccan etc), while the same is true for Ashkenazi (German, Russian, French), even while Ethiopian Jews are 2% as well.

    Those, in total, are about 70% of the total population, with the rest being myriad other groups.

    It simply isn’t a state that is big on racial purity.

    Your definition of race is impoverished.

    Any state that uncritically maintains groups who have serious inbreeding genetic risks within any union of two members of a sub-group (ie: Ashkeanzim) by definition supports groups who are too racially close even to the taste of mother nature.

    This genetic closeness, especially as the number of such group expands, defines both race and the degree to which a group can be labeled as such. Nothing else does.

    Those Jewish groups maintain the same inbred genetic core wherever they go, no matter who they live among, and so to imagine that they can more easily do so in Israel is no stretch of the imagination.

    It has always been politically convenient for inbred and racially zealous Jews to point to their ideological group’s genetic outliers in order to muster a weak effort to distract from their racialism. It has always helped to have Jewish media pronouncing itself as the only legitimate judge of such claims (dissenting analysis from anywhere else being labeled as antisemitic and thus invalid) , and their consistent validation of these weak arguments has always been predictable.

    Proper analysis would never be left on the table for any White gentile group target of the Jewish media when it chose to attack their group as apolitical entity. That being said, no politically significant White gentile group approaches the successful racialism of the Ashkenazim (for example).

    • Troll: Tyrion 2
  176. @Anon
    I have a theory that people who have a truly "White" genetic profile (loosely defined as minimal to no Arab, other Asian, or Black admixture) have a genetic behavioral predisposition to not procreate when in proximity to non-Whites.

    From a natural selection perspective, dropping the procreation rate around non-Whites could serve the purpose of lowering the genetic donation rate to the non-White out-group.

    It could also serve to lower the resource donation sum in any system wherein the non-White group was able to engineer a degree of socialism, leading to a faster non-White population collapse (see below).

    The underlying natural selection strategy would be to avoid improving the genetic fitness of the (faster breeding) competing group and therefore hopefully allow a smaller number of Whites a better chance at survival over the long term.

    Non-Whites procreate at a higher rate than us, and yet we exist at this point in history. Non-whites have likely been out-breeding us for tens of thousands of years if not longer. In early history, what kept them from overwhelming and eradicating us? Why are we still here? Even given technological, intellectual, and geographic advantages it would seem likely that the breeding rate of non-Whites, to include even East Asians, would have sufficed to overcome most of that advantage difference.

    Perhaps their breeding rate leads to inevitable social collapse over time, and that this has happened repeatedly to the end result of catastrophic population and civilization collapses (therefore eliminating gained knowledge). Could it be that the more prone a group is to breed, the more assured that it is that they will lack technology due to the deeper catastrophe that more dramatic population collapses bring? In turn, these hypothetical dramatic population collapses might genetically reinforce the instinct to having more children with less resources (in a bid to increase the chance that one will survive inevitable catastrophe).

    The genetically embedded strategy for White people to lower their procreation and avoid White genetic donation may be to prevent racial out-groups from gaining the genetics that would prompt them to breed more sensibly and become less prone to population collapse. It may also be to prevent better competitive competence in general.

    The population of Africa is slated to increase to some ungodly number within the next 50 years. I would bet a lot that, at some point during this time period, there will be a large population collapse within Africa, if not elsewhere, by some indeterminate means.

    From my personal perspective as a White man who lives around NAMs, this instinct to procreate less consciously manifests as not wishing any child to grow up around the dysfunctional personalities and communities of non-Whites.

    “White”[s] […] have a genetic behavioral predisposition to not procreate when in proximity to non-Whites.

    With a deep dive into the data, I’d bet you could find correlation on that, but how could you even begin to take a stab at causation?

    • Replies: @Anon
    I doubt that you could prove it beyond correlation. Though, I don't have a University genetics education and don't know if it is possible to link any behavior to an overly specific genetic cause. If it is possible, then perhaps that proof would be a future possibility assuming someone was motivated enough.

    For me, its merely a useful theoretical model that seems to comport well enough. I wouldn't be surprised if it were some type of esoteric axiom, perhaps born out of long-standing knowledge earned in some deeper history, in some elite circles that know better what is going on in today's world. See my prior post in regard to the theoretical possibility of this population imbalance having happened before (and perhaps multiple times).
  177. @Anonymous
    Just what the frigging Hell are 'Myanmarese' - which I assume means 'Burmese', (or maybe even Rohingya?), are doing in Finland, let alone Lapland.

    The quintessential tropical people moving to the frozen Arctic.

    Just, what, exactly, in the name of buggery, is going on?

    what … is going on?

    I think they are all refugee resettlements, i.e., people whose refugee lottery numbers don’t do so well in the shuffle and get shipped off to Lapland. They might also lack the initiative to leave once they are dropped in by the government.

    Here is a 2017 article in the Nordic Labor Journal whose title suggests Burmese racial superiority over boring, dreary local Finns:

    Refugees bring new life to Finnish Punkalaidun, known for its coffins
    FEB 02, 2017 | Text: Bengt Östling, photo Cata Portin

    http://www.nordiclabourjournal.org/i-fokus/in-focus-2017/the-100-year-wave-hitting-nordic-labour-market/article.2017-02-01.8621719550/image

    The road to Punkalaidun is beautiful, but treacherously winding and slippery in the wintertime. This is far out into the countryside. The municipality is more than 150 kilometres north-west of Helsinki.

    The road name ”Taikayön tie” alludes to magical nights when anything can happen. For hundreds of refugees the dream has already become reality. They have been selected as quota refugees to come to Punkalaidun. […]

    For the Burmese, Syrians or Ethiopians, the most common nationalities, most things are new. […]

    The city under discussion in this article (Punkalaidun) is in the state of Pirkanmaa, whose population-change numbers suggest economic health given its steady gains in population (nearly +25% gradually gained since 1980, beating the national average [+17%]). It sits at 9% of the Finnish population.

    Pirkanmaa is no unqualified success story, though, as it has among the highest unemployment rates in Finland (14%), a number which raises the question of why refugees are being sent there and put to work in the first place when presumably some unemployed locals could get back to work.

    The state’s population-by-first-language data shows a somewhat different picture today from what anyone in their 30s or older would remember of the former, defacto-ethnostate Pirkanmaa:

    Population of Pirkanmaa by first language

    1990
    Finnish: 424,101 [99.3%]
    Swedish: 1,568 [0.4%]
    English: 253 [0.1%]
    All Others: ca. 0.3%, of which English, Russian, and Estonian form nearly half and in that order.

    2017
    Finnish: 486,090 [94.9%]
    Russian: 4,199 [0.8%]
    Arabic: 2,339 [0.5%]
    Estonian: 2,224 [0.4%]
    Swedish: 1,957 [0.4%]
    Persian: 1,691 [0.3%]
    English: 1,454 [0.3%]
    Others languages: 2.4%

    Keeping in mind that these are dynamic numbers and all represent ‘bridgeheads,’ it’s possible to imagine what Pirkanmaa’s urban centers will look like by the 2040s under the current trajectory. It’s a story we’ve seen before in NW Europe in earlier decades, just never in Finland.

    Only languages with 1,000+ speakers are listed, which means <1,000 (<0.2%) Somali speakers are officially in this state; Whatever the true of Somali(-speakers), it is far below the national, official rate of ca. 0.4%. Are they all in Helsinki?

    Here are the fertility-drop numbers for Pirkanmaa, calculated the same way as in my previous comment highlighting the ‘best’ and ‘worst’ performers:

    TFR in 2008 / TFR in 2017 / Loss: Region of Finland
    1.83 / 1.42 / -0.41 points: Pirkanmaa

    This is the fourth highest fertility drop, in absolute terms, of the nineteen Finnish states.

    Many other refugees have left the municipality after a few years, but those from Myanmar have stayed. It is also not the case that all refugees from big cities prefer to come to Finland’s big cities. If you have been living in primitive refugee camps, Punkalaidun is also a luxurious place, points out politicians and refugees both.

    The Finns Party in particular have been criticising fortune seekers who, according to common belief only expect benefits and getting everything served on a plate.

    The Finns Party (f.k.a. True Finns) is a soft-ethnonationalist party that has had 19% of national-legislature seats since spring 2011, and was in government as a junior partner with center-rightists from 2015 to mid 2017, at which time a kind of parliamentary coup to oust the Finns was engineered, at the end of which the Finns Party split in two: the civic-nationalist half stayed in government under a new banner (under obese frontman Timo Soini, a Finnish convert to Roman Catholicism) and the ethnonationalist-leaning half stayed loyal to the party but was now in opposition.

    The party seems to have been hurt by this affair and the attendant media campaign: The next national election is April 2019 and the Finns Party is expected to take only 10% of seats this time, with the ex-FinnsParty parliamentarian splinter group (Blue Reform) is expected to take 2-3% of seats. The pro-migrant Social Democratic Party may take up to 25% of seats and lead the new government. Or it could go on under a center-right government under the KOK party, as Finland has done all but four years since spring 1987, and under whose watch the nascent race problem has emerged. Sad.

    As for the Finnish ethnonationalist vote: The best state-level vote result for the True Finns in 2015 was in the state of Satakunta, mentioned in my post above as the state with the smallest fertility drop from 2008 to 2017:

    TFR in 2008 / TFR in 2017 / Loss: Region of Finland
    – 1.78 / 1.61 / -0.17 points: Satakunta [Smallest drop]

    I’d sugges that this humble little data point (the region with the highest True Finns vote in the 2010s and the lowest fertility drop over the course of the 2010s) could point to a below-the-surface political change whereby a Finnish ethnonationalist core is consolidating, and is turning/will turn the corner on low fertility. (Satakunta went from below average fertility in 2008 to above average in 2017.) It’s still a long way off, though, and the outlook for Finland does seem “worse before better.”

    • Replies: @Oikeamielinen
    Many rural councils in Finland are greedy to acquire 'reception centres' (Finnish acronym VOK) as they see them as a source of economic activity. Such an enterprise is often operated by 'the cousin' or 'the nephew'. It does not seem to be a consideration that state funds will eventually run out — arithmetic is not their strong suite.
    Pudasjärvi is anfamous municipality — 10% foreign residents is advocated there.
  178. @AnonFinn
    Not so curious.
    1990: the somalis and muslims started flowing in.

    Btw 2018 is even worse, closer to 47,5 k, I think.

    2018 is even worse, closer to 47,5 k, I think

    Sometimes it can be useful, as a thought exercise, to look at what the population will be if births hold at a given level indefinitely (this is a simplification of the factors involved [for one thing, as long as TFR is below 2.1, contraction is set to occur], of course, but benefits from its simplicity):

    47,500 births per year (x) 85 years (assumed average lifespan) = 4,000,000 Finns.

    This does not seem a bad number. Finland in 1950 had the same number of citizens.

    The question is only secondarily numbers and must, must, must primarily by the racial-stock of the new births.

    • Replies: @AnonFinn
    Atleast in Finland (even female) education is positively correlated with fertility.
    Could be worse.

    >Eugenic below replacement level fertility in the native stock
    >uncontrollable IQ 80-90 migration with large families
    >sturdy ethno-class society

    My biggest fear is doubling down on equity to break down the self-made hereditary classes no matter the costs.
    Populist socialists, supranational blank slatists (EU/UN bureaucrats), determined naive intellectuals..

    -aspiring realist yuppie doctor :)

  179. @RadicalCenter
    Yes, and the best lack children, while the worst have children at their expense.
    Goodbye, Finland.
    Tragic and unnecessary.

    “Yes, and the best lack children, while the worst have children at their expense.”

    Who/Whom?

    “Goodbye, Finland.”

    LOL, Finland is not going anywhere. They are not leaving. Why are you always so melodramatic?

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    Who/Whom?
     
    Your affection for V.I. Lenin, is noted, once again Corvinus. The blood of 100 million innocents stain your hands, yet you have no shame. The dead testify against you now. And when that day comes, the dead will testify against you again. What will you say? "LOL?" Or some other shallow, detached, and supercilious response?

    And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Rev. 14:20

    You have skipped sowing the wind. You have gone straight to sowing the whirlwind. When you reap, will you be able to swim in the blood trodden Corvinus? You will be the first to recognize the reckoning, and the last to realize your role in it.
  180. @Massimo Heitor
    The Finnish should emulate the Israelis. Raise your birth rate if you want to survive as a people.

    There is successful propaganda that caring about that is racist and it's immoral to have the will to survive as an ethnic group. Well, fight the propaganda.

    “The Finnish should emulate the Israelis. Raise your birth rate if you want to survive as a people.’

    The Finnish are surviving as a people. Perhaps the Finns ought to follow in the footsteps of the Russians. Their government’s choice of aphrodisiac has been a combination of cash and propaganda. Since 2007, extra money has been given to parents on the birth of their second and third children. A special prize – the Order of Parental Glory – was established in 2008.

    Socialism at its finest!

  181. @Hail

    what ... is going on?
     
    I think they are all refugee resettlements, i.e., people whose refugee lottery numbers don't do so well in the shuffle and get shipped off to Lapland. They might also lack the initiative to leave once they are dropped in by the government.

    Here is a 2017 article in the Nordic Labor Journal whose title suggests Burmese racial superiority over boring, dreary local Finns:


    Refugees bring new life to Finnish Punkalaidun, known for its coffins
    FEB 02, 2017 | Text: Bengt Östling, photo Cata Portin

    http://www.nordiclabourjournal.org/i-fokus/in-focus-2017/the-100-year-wave-hitting-nordic-labour-market/article.2017-02-01.8621719550/image

    The road to Punkalaidun is beautiful, but treacherously winding and slippery in the wintertime. This is far out into the countryside. The municipality is more than 150 kilometres north-west of Helsinki.

    The road name ”Taikayön tie” alludes to magical nights when anything can happen. For hundreds of refugees the dream has already become reality. They have been selected as quota refugees to come to Punkalaidun. [...]

    For the Burmese, Syrians or Ethiopians, the most common nationalities, most things are new. [...]
     

    The city under discussion in this article (Punkalaidun) is in the state of Pirkanmaa, whose population-change numbers suggest economic health given its steady gains in population (nearly +25% gradually gained since 1980, beating the national average [+17%]). It sits at 9% of the Finnish population.

    Pirkanmaa is no unqualified success story, though, as it has among the highest unemployment rates in Finland (14%), a number which raises the question of why refugees are being sent there and put to work in the first place when presumably some unemployed locals could get back to work.

    The state's population-by-first-language data shows a somewhat different picture today from what anyone in their 30s or older would remember of the former, defacto-ethnostate Pirkanmaa:

    Population of Pirkanmaa by first language

    1990
    Finnish: 424,101 [99.3%]
    Swedish: 1,568 [0.4%]
    English: 253 [0.1%]
    All Others: ca. 0.3%, of which English, Russian, and Estonian form nearly half and in that order.

    2017
    Finnish: 486,090 [94.9%]
    Russian: 4,199 [0.8%]
    Arabic: 2,339 [0.5%]
    Estonian: 2,224 [0.4%]
    Swedish: 1,957 [0.4%]
    Persian: 1,691 [0.3%]
    English: 1,454 [0.3%]
    Others languages: 2.4%

    Keeping in mind that these are dynamic numbers and all represent 'bridgeheads,' it's possible to imagine what Pirkanmaa's urban centers will look like by the 2040s under the current trajectory. It's a story we've seen before in NW Europe in earlier decades, just never in Finland.

    Only languages with 1,000+ speakers are listed, which means <1,000 (<0.2%) Somali speakers are officially in this state; Whatever the true of Somali(-speakers), it is far below the national, official rate of ca. 0.4%. Are they all in Helsinki?

    Here are the fertility-drop numbers for Pirkanmaa, calculated the same way as in my previous comment highlighting the 'best' and 'worst' performers:

    TFR in 2008 / TFR in 2017 / Loss: Region of Finland
    1.83 / 1.42 / -0.41 points: Pirkanmaa

    This is the fourth highest fertility drop, in absolute terms, of the nineteen Finnish states.


    Many other refugees have left the municipality after a few years, but those from Myanmar have stayed. It is also not the case that all refugees from big cities prefer to come to Finland’s big cities. If you have been living in primitive refugee camps, Punkalaidun is also a luxurious place, points out politicians and refugees both.

    The Finns Party in particular have been criticising fortune seekers who, according to common belief only expect benefits and getting everything served on a plate.
     

    The Finns Party (f.k.a. True Finns) is a soft-ethnonationalist party that has had 19% of national-legislature seats since spring 2011, and was in government as a junior partner with center-rightists from 2015 to mid 2017, at which time a kind of parliamentary coup to oust the Finns was engineered, at the end of which the Finns Party split in two: the civic-nationalist half stayed in government under a new banner (under obese frontman Timo Soini, a Finnish convert to Roman Catholicism) and the ethnonationalist-leaning half stayed loyal to the party but was now in opposition.

    The party seems to have been hurt by this affair and the attendant media campaign: The next national election is April 2019 and the Finns Party is expected to take only 10% of seats this time, with the ex-FinnsParty parliamentarian splinter group (Blue Reform) is expected to take 2-3% of seats. The pro-migrant Social Democratic Party may take up to 25% of seats and lead the new government. Or it could go on under a center-right government under the KOK party, as Finland has done all but four years since spring 1987, and under whose watch the nascent race problem has emerged. Sad.

    As for the Finnish ethnonationalist vote: The best state-level vote result for the True Finns in 2015 was in the state of Satakunta, mentioned in my post above as the state with the smallest fertility drop from 2008 to 2017:


    TFR in 2008 / TFR in 2017 / Loss: Region of Finland
    – 1.78 / 1.61 / -0.17 points: Satakunta [Smallest drop]
     
    I'd sugges that this humble little data point (the region with the highest True Finns vote in the 2010s and the lowest fertility drop over the course of the 2010s) could point to a below-the-surface political change whereby a Finnish ethnonationalist core is consolidating, and is turning/will turn the corner on low fertility. (Satakunta went from below average fertility in 2008 to above average in 2017.) It's still a long way off, though, and the outlook for Finland does seem "worse before better."

    Many rural councils in Finland are greedy to acquire ‘reception centres’ (Finnish acronym VOK) as they see them as a source of economic activity. Such an enterprise is often operated by ‘the cousin’ or ‘the nephew’. It does not seem to be a consideration that state funds will eventually run out — arithmetic is not their strong suite.
    Pudasjärvi is anfamous municipality — 10% foreign residents is advocated there.

    • Replies: @Oikeamielinen
    “anfamous” —> infamous
  182. @Hail

    2018 is even worse, closer to 47,5 k, I think
     
    Sometimes it can be useful, as a thought exercise, to look at what the population will be if births hold at a given level indefinitely (this is a simplification of the factors involved [for one thing, as long as TFR is below 2.1, contraction is set to occur], of course, but benefits from its simplicity):

    47,500 births per year (x) 85 years (assumed average lifespan) = 4,000,000 Finns.

    This does not seem a bad number. Finland in 1950 had the same number of citizens.

    The question is only secondarily numbers and must, must, must primarily by the racial-stock of the new births.

    Atleast in Finland (even female) education is positively correlated with fertility.
    Could be worse.

    >Eugenic below replacement level fertility in the native stock
    >uncontrollable IQ 80-90 migration with large families
    >sturdy ethno-class society

    My biggest fear is doubling down on equity to break down the self-made hereditary classes no matter the costs.
    Populist socialists, supranational blank slatists (EU/UN bureaucrats), determined naive intellectuals..

    -aspiring realist yuppie doctor 🙂

    • Replies: @Hail

    in Finland (even female) education is positively correlated with fertility
     
    Some notes on Finnish politician fertility:

    On the left:

    Social Democrat candidate for Prime Minister in 2011, Jutta Urpilainen (b.1975, Member of Parliment from 2003) is married to a fellow bureaucrat. They have no children but adopted a son from Colombia in 2016, after which Jutta took a year off for a kind of maternity leave. She has since faded. The former political Wunderkind (in parliament at 28) is now in her mid 40s and childless except for a racial importee from South America.

    Jutta's replacement as head of the Social Democrats, Mr. Antti Rinne (b.1962) and right now looking likely to be the next Prime Minister, has two children and at least one grandchild but is on his third marriage.

    Left Alliance chairwoman Li Andersson (b.1987), of Swedish-minority origin, is apparently unmarried and childless. She is a self-described Marxist. Shortly after her 24th birthday in May 2011, she was elected Chair of the Left Party at the Oulu Regional Assembly, and five years later (June 2016) began her tenure as head of the national-level Left Alliance party. She published a book called "The Extreme Right in Finland" in 2012.

    The Green Party's head, until late 2018, was Touko Aalto (b.1984) who is childless. He got married in August 2015, but the wife filed for divorce two years later following the revelation of Mr. Aalto's affair with a 24-year-old Green Party youth wing leader.

    _____________

    On the right:

    Current center-right Prime Minister Juha Sipila (b.1961, m.1981) has five children (b. early 1980s to early 1990s, at which time Finland's TFR was around 1.7), of whom four are now living (one is deceased, b.1993 d.2015).

    He has, as of now six, grandchildren which means his four surviving children have an aggregate TFR of 1.5 already, which will probably rise given that they are all yet in their 30s.

    Counting only PM Sipila's child-generation and speaking only mathematically, his 5 children were born while his fellow Finns were having only 1.7, which means he and his wife have a 3x greater genetic contribution (i.e., than the average Finn of their generation) to the genepool of the current young-adult generation in Finland.

    PM Sipila met his wife Minna-Maaria at a conservative Lutheran youth summer camp in the late 1970s, and they were married the year he turned 20. It looks likely that PM Sipila and his wife Minna-Maaria never had any other serious romantic interests other than each other. This story is rather against the prevailing trends already in place by late 1970s in Finland and certainly the situation which prevails today. Something of a throwback to a long-gone era...but success speaks for itself! Congratulations, Juha Sipila and Miina-Maaria.

    When Juha Sipila was rising towards the Prime Ministership in the early to mid 2010s, he downplayed his life-shaping ties to the church (through which he met his wife and had a large family). The church is of conservative Lutheran orientation but not part of the state Church of Finland.

    What may be the most likely figure to be the Right's Prime Minister (see seat projections for April 2019 Finnish national election), Mr. Petteri Orpo (b.1969, m.2003) of the National Coalition Party, who also has two children.

    Orpo may have a 2 in 10 chance of becoming PM in the odds I made up from eyeballing the numbers:


    While a rightist coalition will likely by mathematically possible, it would probably again require the Finns Party and this is unlikely in practice, given their ouster from the governing coalition in 2015.

    So the strong likelihood appears to be of a SocialDemocrat-Center “grand coalition” on Merkelian lines, under a Social Democrat Prime Minister (7 in 10 chance) or maybe under a National Coalition Party Prime Minister if they squeak by with more seats (2 in 10 chance), or a center-right coalition excluding any parties of the left (1 in 10 chance).
     

    As for Finns Party, looking set to consolidate down to a leaner 10% of seats, their head and thus PM candidate is Jussi Halla-aho (b.1971, m.2002 to wife Hilla [b.1975]). Mr. Halla-aho has five children: Four with his wife (b.2003 to b.2013) and one in 2015 with an unknown woman which caused a small tabloid scandal when revealed in 2017.

    An interesting, iSteve-related note on Halla-aho:


    [auto translate] Halla-aho has maintained since 2003 a blog called Scripta - the writings of a sinking the West , which includes his own words, "mainly immigration, multiculturalism, tolerance , freedom of expression and political correctness dealing with critical opinion articles"
     
    There is a very high likelihood that at some point between 2003 and the present, Halla-aho has been an iSteve reader. The Scripta blog is all in Finnish and has not been updated since April 2017, just before he took over the chairmanship of the True Finns.

    The former True Finns frontman, who defected following system pressure and formed a go-nowhere, system-friendly splinter party called Blue Reform, is Timo Soini (b.1962, m.1996). He has two children (b.1997 and b.1999).

    __________________

    Summary of four national-level left-wing figures (two men, two women):
    - 1977: Average birth year of political figure
    - 2: Aggregate number of children
    - 0.5: Fertility Rate (not necessarily complete given two are b.1980s)
    - 1: Number of adoptions from Colombia.

    Summary of four national-level right-wing figures (all men):
    - 1965: Average birth year of political figure
    - 14: Number of children (of whom one died in his early 20s)
    - 3.5: Fertility Rate (not necessarily complete given they are all men but likely at or near complete) (3.25 if excluding the early death).

    Sum total, including the Colombian adoption:
    - 17: Number of children for eight leading Finnish political figures.
    - 2.1: Implied fertility rate. (2.0 if excluding the early death).
    - Child-generation is 94% Finnish ancestral-stock, 6% South American mestizo-mulatto-etc. stock (via the Jutta Urpilainen adoption in 2016).

  183. @Oikeamielinen
    Many rural councils in Finland are greedy to acquire 'reception centres' (Finnish acronym VOK) as they see them as a source of economic activity. Such an enterprise is often operated by 'the cousin' or 'the nephew'. It does not seem to be a consideration that state funds will eventually run out — arithmetic is not their strong suite.
    Pudasjärvi is anfamous municipality — 10% foreign residents is advocated there.

    “anfamous” —> infamous

  184. @dfordoom

    What is it about South Korean culture that makes them have the lowest TFR in the world?
     
    Different sources quote slightly different figures but Taiwan and Singapore seem to be in just as much trouble. Singapore's TFR may be as low as 0.84. That's embracing the death cult with a vengeance.

    South Korean culture

    K-Pop…

    I rest my case.

    Peace.

    Note: Ijma (scholarly consensus) is a difficult thing to reach these days, but I take solace that the ulema will unanimously agree that any reconstituted caliphate must go postal on K-pop within its jurisdiction.

    You can thank us later via charitable donations to the Bayt ul-Mal after the task has been finished.

  185. @O'Really
    Viktor Orban has announced a major new policy for affordable family formation:

    https://voiceofeurope.com/2019/02/orban-announces-major-family-protection-package-for-hungary/

    If you have:

    2 children -- you get a preferential mortgage
    3 children or more -- the government makes payments on your mortgage
    4 children -- the mother receives permanent exemption from the personal income tax

    So practical and self-evidently good, it will not only help save Hungary but create pressure on globalist elites in other countries who are not doing this because they say it’s just too complicated. This is why Soros is freaking out, and specifically yelling at his flying monkeys in the European Parliament.

  186. @Pericles

    I am thinking BumFunk Finland is the last place (via life’s immigration lottery) I want to land. I will be pining to somehow, some way to crash myself into the UK, preferably London.

     

    Well, not much is stopping you from collecting benefits in several countries. And have some patience, because at some point you can travel freely in the Schengen area. With that said, I see a lot of Somalis in the (Swedish) city/town I'm in. They got into scamming the welfare state pretty quickly, so maybe they enjoy the surroundings.

    Thanks for all your Sverige commentary at unz. Unfortunately I have only spent one warm idyllic August day there a while back. Came into Malmo via ferry fr Denmark. Then drove w friends in a Swedish made automobile about 20 miles north to a hobby/farm. We cut down nettles with a scythe and ate delicious goose berries off their bushes. Ripe and sweet at their peak. Nature has its own poetry.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Why, thank you. There's a lot of nature, and it's very beautiful when in the mood. If you ever fly to Stockholm, look out the window and see how vast the spruce forests are, with lakes dotted everywhere and occasionally farms, villages, even towns. (Much like Finland, I'd say.)
  187. @Anonymous

    This is what people who blame the Jews for everything overlook. The poz is going to destroy Israel just as certainly as it’s going to destroy western nations.
     
    They'll turn off "the poz" once Western nations are destroyed. That is why it is on in the first place.

    This is what people who blame the Jews for everything overlook. The poz is going to destroy Israel just as certainly as it’s going to destroy western nations.

    They’ll turn off “the poz” once Western nations are destroyed. That is why it is on in the first place.

    You can’t simply turn off the poz. It has a momentum that is almost impossible to stop. And it doesn’t discriminate. It destroys all societies.

    • Agree: Talha
  188. @Anon

    In the Jewish context, I see Yoram Hazony as one of many that is consistent on the pro-nationalist side. He thinks Europeans or Americans should be logically entitled to the same style of nationalism that he wants for himself and his identity. I see many the Jewish writers at Vox as consistent in the anti-nationalist sense. They believe all national and ethnic identities should be undermined and destroyed including the Jewish and Israeli identities. Then there are the Jewish political writers at the NYT, who really exemplify the “tribalism (or nationalism) for me but not for thee” mindset.
     
    None of that can be taken at face value, assuming that your political summary is accurate, given that Jewish identity at its root is ethno-supremacist.

    Jewish identity being defined by the Torah. The core of which being the Tanakh, which advocates for the nation destruction / submission of all other nations to Israel (a view that is the defining political characteristic of ethnic supremacism, in one of its possible phrasings).

    Jewish texts that comment on the Tanakh get worse in their supremacist views: predicting the eventual genocide of all non-Jews in declaring that all non-Jews represent represent an impurity that must and will be one day cleansed from the Earth.

    It would be disingenuous to try to assert that the political core of Judaism does not take every word in its Torah seriously or that Judaism is not fundamentalist at its political core: even if we were to not go beyond the prescriptions of the relatively milder Tanakh that simply calls for submission or national destruction of anyone who does not serve the Jews and worship the Jewish god (which long ago became an explicit metaphor for the Jewish people in Jewish writing).

    The defining factor of mainstream political Jewish identity is to take the primary prescriptions, themes, and prophecies of the Tanakh seriously. Therefore, to be Jewish is to be an ethnopolitical and spiritual supremacist. If you are Jewish and not these things, then your ideological status as a Jew is questionable. Good news: the Rabbis will still consider you to be a racial Jew and you will benefit from Torah-directed Jewish political action regardless.

    Its my view that most, if not all, Jewish political speech and action has to be considered to be opposition and controlled opposition in the public sphere: given that any expressed Jewish identity implies an out-group destruction agenda.

    In practice, look at what we have: essentially a bunch of Jews arguing with one another on both sides of the isle; supposedly representing the interests of hundreds of millions of non-Jews in the process (not likely).

    The Jewish New York Times prints a propaganda article, and Jewish Breitbart prints a response. etc, etc. Gentile owned (and much lower readership) publications like the Daily Caller are the occasional exception to the Jewish-media rule, but then again Tucker Carslon's job doesn't exactly allow him the freedom to critique Jews within any format. Which makes his content much less threatening to the Jewish political machine, to the point that it can de facto serve as controlled opposition.

    This situation is obviously dangerous for those non-Jews: two supposedly different factions of an ethno-supremacist and fundamentalist religion arguing over the fate of non-members. The situation would obviously channel the democracy-critiquing metaphor of two wolfs and a sheep arguing over what is for dinner, except in this case it seems to be the wolf arguing with itself in regard to the sheep.

    None of that can be taken at face value, assuming that your political summary is accurate, given that Jewish identity at its root is ethno-supremacist.

    Jewish identity being defined by the Torah. The core of which being the Tanakh, which advocates for the nation destruction / submission of all other nations to Israel

    This sounds crazy. I don’t believe in any of this. This sounds conspiracy-ish and anti-semitic.

    • Replies: @Anon

    None of that can be taken at face value, assuming that your political summary is accurate, given that Jewish identity at its root is ethno-supremacist.

    Jewish identity being defined by the Torah. The core of which being the Tanakh, which advocates for the nation destruction / submission of all other nations to Israel
     


    This sounds crazy. I don’t believe in any of this. This sounds conspiracy-ish and anti-semitic.
     
    Stating that something "sounds crazy" is not a response. Rather, combined with what followed, sounds like typical hasbara rhetoric that seeks to merely label what it doesn't like as crazy and anti-Semitic rather than to base those accusations on a substantial argument or retort.

    Let's proceed from my statement. What exactly is "crazy", "conspiracy-ish", and "anti-semitic"?

    1. That Jewish identity, at its root, is ethno-supremacist?

    Jewish identity, at its root, is based on the Torah. That fact is not debatable. The core of the Torah is the aTanakh, with everything else being commentary on it. I could fill pages with quoted verse from the Tanakh that well confirm he fact that Jewish identity, as found in the Tanakh, is ethno-supremacist. In fact, the only challenge would be editing down the quoted verses to a manageable set of excerpts. Perhaps requesting those verses by topic would be one way to do that. So, on which topic do you want your proofs?:

    a. destruction of all other nations
    b. world domination
    c. destruction of all other religions
    d. genocide of non-Jews
    e. dispossession of non-Jews of their land.

    I have it pre-organized and ready to go.

    Their core five books, which every Christian has in their house, fully details their intentions and their core identity; with their expansive commentaries in the Talmud and Kabbalah not only confirming the long-standing validity of what is contained in those books (a standing validity that the Jews have a word for), but upping the intensity of their genocidal-fever and anti-gentile (anti-non-Jew) racism.

    Moreover, I have no shortage of recent Rabbinical commentary, as quoted in Jewish newspapers, which confirms all of this. The elderly Rabbis cannot help discussing their quest for slavery and genocide as they are drunk on their apparent success with Israel and the rest. No, the only conspiracy is one in fact. One that your lame protests are seeking to cover well-too-late.

    2. What is anti-Semitic? I would pose the question back to you. What is Semitic? If something is anti-Semitic, we have to know what the term Semitic ideologically implies.

    Semiticism seems to entail the national dispossession, genocide, and quest for world dominance if we are to both look at what the five core books state, at the constantly repeated accusations toward the Jews after each society observes them for a time, as well as the Jew's printed modern statements. After that, we can get into genocidal texts like the Zohar. For fun, we can identify all the places where it is explained that non-Jews are not human but instead considered to be livestock, other animals, rocks, etc. We can even look to Rashi's commentary for that.

    Being anti-Semitic is loyalty to humanity.

    I have multiple modern primary Jewish sources that outright admit what I am stating (aside from the main Torah source). See Rabbi Harry Waton's book " A Program for the Jews and Humanity"

    http://www.gwb.com.au/2000/myers/book.htm
    https://archive.org/details/AProgramForTheJewsAndAnAnswerToAllAntiSemites

    See Publications of the American Jewish Historical Society Number 28, page 33 (which I am staring at in this moment):


    "we, as a people, have not a great moral and, eventually, a physical struggle before us before the dawn of that immense day when in reality Israel will rule the world"
     
    However, I would not encourage others to look too far outside the core five books (The Old Testament). The core of it lies there.

    In summary:

    You have been called out too many times in history to have any credibility, your religious books admit your crimes, your Rabbis admit your crimes, your modern printed texts admit your crimes, and your crimes are obvious to the world. Your protests are child-like and almost funny in contrast. The paper thin barrier keeping your scam alive is a fast approaching tipping point that your media can barely delay. Now fuck off with your content-free posts and protests, Hasbara troll.

  189. @AnonFinn
    Atleast in Finland (even female) education is positively correlated with fertility.
    Could be worse.

    >Eugenic below replacement level fertility in the native stock
    >uncontrollable IQ 80-90 migration with large families
    >sturdy ethno-class society

    My biggest fear is doubling down on equity to break down the self-made hereditary classes no matter the costs.
    Populist socialists, supranational blank slatists (EU/UN bureaucrats), determined naive intellectuals..

    -aspiring realist yuppie doctor :)

    in Finland (even female) education is positively correlated with fertility

    Some notes on Finnish politician fertility:

    On the left:

    Social Democrat candidate for Prime Minister in 2011, Jutta Urpilainen (b.1975, Member of Parliment from 2003) is married to a fellow bureaucrat. They have no children but adopted a son from Colombia in 2016, after which Jutta took a year off for a kind of maternity leave. She has since faded. The former political Wunderkind (in parliament at 28) is now in her mid 40s and childless except for a racial importee from South America.

    Jutta’s replacement as head of the Social Democrats, Mr. Antti Rinne (b.1962) and right now looking likely to be the next Prime Minister, has two children and at least one grandchild but is on his third marriage.

    Left Alliance chairwoman Li Andersson (b.1987), of Swedish-minority origin, is apparently unmarried and childless. She is a self-described Marxist. Shortly after her 24th birthday in May 2011, she was elected Chair of the Left Party at the Oulu Regional Assembly, and five years later (June 2016) began her tenure as head of the national-level Left Alliance party. She published a book called “The Extreme Right in Finland” in 2012.

    The Green Party’s head, until late 2018, was Touko Aalto (b.1984) who is childless. He got married in August 2015, but the wife filed for divorce two years later following the revelation of Mr. Aalto’s affair with a 24-year-old Green Party youth wing leader.

    _____________

    On the right:

    Current center-right Prime Minister Juha Sipila (b.1961, m.1981) has five children (b. early 1980s to early 1990s, at which time Finland’s TFR was around 1.7), of whom four are now living (one is deceased, b.1993 d.2015).

    He has, as of now six, grandchildren which means his four surviving children have an aggregate TFR of 1.5 already, which will probably rise given that they are all yet in their 30s.

    Counting only PM Sipila’s child-generation and speaking only mathematically, his 5 children were born while his fellow Finns were having only 1.7, which means he and his wife have a 3x greater genetic contribution (i.e., than the average Finn of their generation) to the genepool of the current young-adult generation in Finland.

    PM Sipila met his wife Minna-Maaria at a conservative Lutheran youth summer camp in the late 1970s, and they were married the year he turned 20. It looks likely that PM Sipila and his wife Minna-Maaria never had any other serious romantic interests other than each other. This story is rather against the prevailing trends already in place by late 1970s in Finland and certainly the situation which prevails today. Something of a throwback to a long-gone era…but success speaks for itself! Congratulations, Juha Sipila and Miina-Maaria.

    When Juha Sipila was rising towards the Prime Ministership in the early to mid 2010s, he downplayed his life-shaping ties to the church (through which he met his wife and had a large family). The church is of conservative Lutheran orientation but not part of the state Church of Finland.

    What may be the most likely figure to be the Right’s Prime Minister (see seat projections for April 2019 Finnish national election), Mr. Petteri Orpo (b.1969, m.2003) of the National Coalition Party, who also has two children.

    Orpo may have a 2 in 10 chance of becoming PM in the odds I made up from eyeballing the numbers:

    While a rightist coalition will likely by mathematically possible, it would probably again require the Finns Party and this is unlikely in practice, given their ouster from the governing coalition in 2015.

    So the strong likelihood appears to be of a SocialDemocrat-Center “grand coalition” on Merkelian lines, under a Social Democrat Prime Minister (7 in 10 chance) or maybe under a National Coalition Party Prime Minister if they squeak by with more seats (2 in 10 chance), or a center-right coalition excluding any parties of the left (1 in 10 chance).

    As for Finns Party, looking set to consolidate down to a leaner 10% of seats, their head and thus PM candidate is Jussi Halla-aho (b.1971, m.2002 to wife Hilla [b.1975]). Mr. Halla-aho has five children: Four with his wife (b.2003 to b.2013) and one in 2015 with an unknown woman which caused a small tabloid scandal when revealed in 2017.

    An interesting, iSteve-related note on Halla-aho:

    [auto translate] Halla-aho has maintained since 2003 a blog called Scripta – the writings of a sinking the West , which includes his own words, “mainly immigration, multiculturalism, tolerance , freedom of expression and political correctness dealing with critical opinion articles”

    There is a very high likelihood that at some point between 2003 and the present, Halla-aho has been an iSteve reader. The Scripta blog is all in Finnish and has not been updated since April 2017, just before he took over the chairmanship of the True Finns.

    The former True Finns frontman, who defected following system pressure and formed a go-nowhere, system-friendly splinter party called Blue Reform, is Timo Soini (b.1962, m.1996). He has two children (b.1997 and b.1999).

    __________________

    Summary of four national-level left-wing figures (two men, two women):
    – 1977: Average birth year of political figure
    – 2: Aggregate number of children
    – 0.5: Fertility Rate (not necessarily complete given two are b.1980s)
    – 1: Number of adoptions from Colombia.

    Summary of four national-level right-wing figures (all men):
    – 1965: Average birth year of political figure
    – 14: Number of children (of whom one died in his early 20s)
    – 3.5: Fertility Rate (not necessarily complete given they are all men but likely at or near complete) (3.25 if excluding the early death).

    Sum total, including the Colombian adoption:
    – 17: Number of children for eight leading Finnish political figures.
    – 2.1: Implied fertility rate. (2.0 if excluding the early death).
    – Child-generation is 94% Finnish ancestral-stock, 6% South American mestizo-mulatto-etc. stock (via the Jutta Urpilainen adoption in 2016).

    • Replies: @AnonFinn

    Mr. Halla-aho has five children: Four with his wife (b.2003 to b.2013) and one in 2015 with an unknown womanMr.
     
    Not so unknown.
    Quite a miracle that they are still married because Halla-Aho has been banging the same young political groupie for more than 10 years now.
  190. @reiner Tor
    That reminds me of the joke about the cowboy who goes into the bar and orders ten whiskies. Drinks them all, then orders eight whiskies. Drinks these as well, then orders six whiskies. After he drank these, too, he (now visibly drunk) says: "I don't understand. I'm drinking less and less, yet I'm getting drunker and drunker..."

    That’s a good joke, but I’m to drunk to see the connection.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    You seemed to use the argument that since obviously Jewish influence wasn't increasing in Finland, it couldn't have been the ultimate reason for the TFR collapse. Of course it's a fallacy, since the effects could easily be cumulative. Similarly to how the shots of whiskey drunk by the cowboy had a cumulative effect, so even though his drinking was slowing down, its negative effects were getting better.
  191. @Corvinus
    "Yes, and the best lack children, while the worst have children at their expense."

    Who/Whom?

    "Goodbye, Finland."

    LOL, Finland is not going anywhere. They are not leaving. Why are you always so melodramatic?

    Who/Whom?

    Your affection for V.I. Lenin, is noted, once again Corvinus. The blood of 100 million innocents stain your hands, yet you have no shame. The dead testify against you now. And when that day comes, the dead will testify against you again. What will you say? “LOL?” Or some other shallow, detached, and supercilious response?

    And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Rev. 14:20

    You have skipped sowing the wind. You have gone straight to sowing the whirlwind. When you reap, will you be able to swim in the blood trodden Corvinus? You will be the first to recognize the reckoning, and the last to realize your role in it.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Your affection for V.I. Lenin, is noted, once again Corvinus."

    The Three Little Pigs thank you for your strawman.

    "You will be the first to recognize the reckoning, and the last to realize your role in it."

    So now you have a God complex as well? Only He himself knows. Why do you speak for Him?
  192. @O'Really
    Viktor Orban has announced a major new policy for affordable family formation:

    https://voiceofeurope.com/2019/02/orban-announces-major-family-protection-package-for-hungary/

    If you have:

    2 children -- you get a preferential mortgage
    3 children or more -- the government makes payments on your mortgage
    4 children -- the mother receives permanent exemption from the personal income tax

    Oh this is priceless! Orban has earned my gratitude, again!

    • Replies: @Hail
    Can we find even one specific policy from Donald "Highest Legal Immigration Ever" Trump that comes close to this? (Pro-natal policies for core national population).

    Anyone? -- Anyone? -- Bueller?
  193. @Charles Erwin Wilson 3
    Oh this is priceless! Orban has earned my gratitude, again!

    Can we find even one specific policy from Donald “Highest Legal Immigration Ever” Trump that comes close to this? (Pro-natal policies for core national population).

    Anyone? — Anyone? — Bueller?

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson 3
    No, but American public sentiment, and Hungarian public sentiment differ.

    Look, Trump is so much better than any of the Republicans would have been, and any of them would have been better (even if a little) than Hillary that we must remember not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
  194. @Hail
    Can we find even one specific policy from Donald "Highest Legal Immigration Ever" Trump that comes close to this? (Pro-natal policies for core national population).

    Anyone? -- Anyone? -- Bueller?

    No, but American public sentiment, and Hungarian public sentiment differ.

    Look, Trump is so much better than any of the Republicans would have been, and any of them would have been better (even if a little) than Hillary that we must remember not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    • Replies: @Hail

    Trump is so much better than any of the Republicans
     
    I understand what you mean in that I think we have all been tempted by this sentiment.

    I went over to Trump in Aug. 2015, after around two months of being pretty highly skeptical of what he said and ambivalent about the man himself, a position to which I have now reverted along with so many other ex-MAGA supporters. I'd say I firmly left the Trump camp as of late 2018 (once the dust cleared after the election in November). It was after wavering for a while. The first big symbolic act that the man was not what we were sold was the first bombing of Syria, April 2017. The dog that didn't bark, though, was the lack of any real progress on the FAIR/NumbersUSA agenda across the board.

    To summarize: Trump rules like Jeb, and the underlying trends of hundreds of thousands more net immigrant-stock Nonwhites per quarter since Jan. 2017, and parallel White contraction, have all proceeded as they would have under Jeb, Hillary, or any of the other 'frontrunners' of late 2015 to early 2016. We elected Trump the insurgent and he has failed, leading many to the plausible theory that he never cared.

    Adding insult to injury, his actions bespeak the fact that he does seem to prioritize at least one form of nationalism over globalism, but not ours: Israel's. The only 'Europeans' who got a nod from the 2019 State of the Union speech were Jews: The fifteen-minutes dedicated to the Holocaust in SotU (including obligatory standing ovations from both sides) were a real humiliation.

    In short, he is not better than any of the other Republicans, and may be worse.

    Cheerleading for Trump now is equivalent to enthusiastic campaigning for Dole '96, Bush Jr. '00, Bush Jr '04, McCain '08, etc. "They're not perfect but so much better than the other guy!"


    not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
     
    Here is another kind of maxim: Beware the temptations of cheerleading and its evil mutant twin, the full-blown personality cult. Maybe the personality cult can occasionally be acceptable or even good but definitely not when the image diverges so strongly from what the top figure and his group are delivering.
  195. @Hail

    in Finland (even female) education is positively correlated with fertility
     
    Some notes on Finnish politician fertility:

    On the left:

    Social Democrat candidate for Prime Minister in 2011, Jutta Urpilainen (b.1975, Member of Parliment from 2003) is married to a fellow bureaucrat. They have no children but adopted a son from Colombia in 2016, after which Jutta took a year off for a kind of maternity leave. She has since faded. The former political Wunderkind (in parliament at 28) is now in her mid 40s and childless except for a racial importee from South America.

    Jutta's replacement as head of the Social Democrats, Mr. Antti Rinne (b.1962) and right now looking likely to be the next Prime Minister, has two children and at least one grandchild but is on his third marriage.

    Left Alliance chairwoman Li Andersson (b.1987), of Swedish-minority origin, is apparently unmarried and childless. She is a self-described Marxist. Shortly after her 24th birthday in May 2011, she was elected Chair of the Left Party at the Oulu Regional Assembly, and five years later (June 2016) began her tenure as head of the national-level Left Alliance party. She published a book called "The Extreme Right in Finland" in 2012.

    The Green Party's head, until late 2018, was Touko Aalto (b.1984) who is childless. He got married in August 2015, but the wife filed for divorce two years later following the revelation of Mr. Aalto's affair with a 24-year-old Green Party youth wing leader.

    _____________

    On the right:

    Current center-right Prime Minister Juha Sipila (b.1961, m.1981) has five children (b. early 1980s to early 1990s, at which time Finland's TFR was around 1.7), of whom four are now living (one is deceased, b.1993 d.2015).

    He has, as of now six, grandchildren which means his four surviving children have an aggregate TFR of 1.5 already, which will probably rise given that they are all yet in their 30s.

    Counting only PM Sipila's child-generation and speaking only mathematically, his 5 children were born while his fellow Finns were having only 1.7, which means he and his wife have a 3x greater genetic contribution (i.e., than the average Finn of their generation) to the genepool of the current young-adult generation in Finland.

    PM Sipila met his wife Minna-Maaria at a conservative Lutheran youth summer camp in the late 1970s, and they were married the year he turned 20. It looks likely that PM Sipila and his wife Minna-Maaria never had any other serious romantic interests other than each other. This story is rather against the prevailing trends already in place by late 1970s in Finland and certainly the situation which prevails today. Something of a throwback to a long-gone era...but success speaks for itself! Congratulations, Juha Sipila and Miina-Maaria.

    When Juha Sipila was rising towards the Prime Ministership in the early to mid 2010s, he downplayed his life-shaping ties to the church (through which he met his wife and had a large family). The church is of conservative Lutheran orientation but not part of the state Church of Finland.

    What may be the most likely figure to be the Right's Prime Minister (see seat projections for April 2019 Finnish national election), Mr. Petteri Orpo (b.1969, m.2003) of the National Coalition Party, who also has two children.

    Orpo may have a 2 in 10 chance of becoming PM in the odds I made up from eyeballing the numbers:


    While a rightist coalition will likely by mathematically possible, it would probably again require the Finns Party and this is unlikely in practice, given their ouster from the governing coalition in 2015.

    So the strong likelihood appears to be of a SocialDemocrat-Center “grand coalition” on Merkelian lines, under a Social Democrat Prime Minister (7 in 10 chance) or maybe under a National Coalition Party Prime Minister if they squeak by with more seats (2 in 10 chance), or a center-right coalition excluding any parties of the left (1 in 10 chance).
     

    As for Finns Party, looking set to consolidate down to a leaner 10% of seats, their head and thus PM candidate is Jussi Halla-aho (b.1971, m.2002 to wife Hilla [b.1975]). Mr. Halla-aho has five children: Four with his wife (b.2003 to b.2013) and one in 2015 with an unknown woman which caused a small tabloid scandal when revealed in 2017.

    An interesting, iSteve-related note on Halla-aho:


    [auto translate] Halla-aho has maintained since 2003 a blog called Scripta - the writings of a sinking the West , which includes his own words, "mainly immigration, multiculturalism, tolerance , freedom of expression and political correctness dealing with critical opinion articles"
     
    There is a very high likelihood that at some point between 2003 and the present, Halla-aho has been an iSteve reader. The Scripta blog is all in Finnish and has not been updated since April 2017, just before he took over the chairmanship of the True Finns.

    The former True Finns frontman, who defected following system pressure and formed a go-nowhere, system-friendly splinter party called Blue Reform, is Timo Soini (b.1962, m.1996). He has two children (b.1997 and b.1999).

    __________________

    Summary of four national-level left-wing figures (two men, two women):
    - 1977: Average birth year of political figure
    - 2: Aggregate number of children
    - 0.5: Fertility Rate (not necessarily complete given two are b.1980s)
    - 1: Number of adoptions from Colombia.

    Summary of four national-level right-wing figures (all men):
    - 1965: Average birth year of political figure
    - 14: Number of children (of whom one died in his early 20s)
    - 3.5: Fertility Rate (not necessarily complete given they are all men but likely at or near complete) (3.25 if excluding the early death).

    Sum total, including the Colombian adoption:
    - 17: Number of children for eight leading Finnish political figures.
    - 2.1: Implied fertility rate. (2.0 if excluding the early death).
    - Child-generation is 94% Finnish ancestral-stock, 6% South American mestizo-mulatto-etc. stock (via the Jutta Urpilainen adoption in 2016).

    Mr. Halla-aho has five children: Four with his wife (b.2003 to b.2013) and one in 2015 with an unknown womanMr.

    Not so unknown.
    Quite a miracle that they are still married because Halla-Aho has been banging the same young political groupie for more than 10 years now.

    • Replies: @Hail
    I notice the same thing contributed to the undoing of the Finnish Green Party leader:

    The Green Party’s head, until late 2018, was Touko Aalto (b.1984) who is childless. He got married in August 2015, but the wife filed for divorce two years later following the revelation of Mr. Aalto’s affair with a 24-year-old Green Party youth wing leader.
     
    How long was the affair with the 24-year-old Green youth leader? All I find are the dates of marriage and filing of divorce, which are exactly 24 months apart (Aug. 2015 marriage; Aalto assumes leadership of Green Party in June 2017; divorce filed in Aug. 2017). That is remarkably fast for Mr. Aalto to give up on his own marriage, and rather pathetic viewed from a distance. I almost pity the man. This is what traditional morality is for, after all. Have some dignity, Touko.

    Why would he do it? Here is Aalto and then-wife Marja Johanna Pietiläinen:

    https://img.ilcdn.fi/R5EkRefYluGLGe7Hx6OEXo-lq5c=/full-fit-in/612x/img-s3.ilcdn.fi/71afd352c4544d403a868924cf85e6b44a26a40e194c5c9ed13068c96325dbc8.jpg

    It was reported in mid 2018 that


    Touko Aalto, the chairperson of the Green League, is currently on an indefinite sick leave due to exhaustion.
     
    But it actually follows his finalized divorce (early 2018) by a mere few months, so I would have to assume the divorce was the causative factor behind this "exhaustion." Did anyone in the Finnish media share this speculation?

    Aalto's departure also looks correlated with a drop in support for the Green Party, from 18% early in his tenure as Green Party Chair (nominally, June 2017 to Nov. 2018), down to 11% by the month he resigned.

    The seat forecasts are for the Greens to take 22 to 26 seats in April 2019 (11% to 13% of seats), which is still an increase over their current 15 (7.5% of seats). The new Green Party head, Pekka Haavisto (b.1958), is a biographical caricature of left-wing politics:


    Haavisto is openly gay; he lives in a registered partnership with Nexar Antonio Flores, an Ecuadorian man
     
    And yet one poll found him the most popular Prime Minister candidate in a hypothetical direct PM election (22%), ahead of a second-tier of three centrists (12 to 16% each), and then a meager 5% for ethnonationalist Finns Party Halla-Aho and the far-left's Li Andersson (on whom, see above). I presume Mr. Haavisto's relatively support is because of some kind of ambivalence about other left-wing figures like the likely next PM Antti Rinne.
  196. Anon[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Massimo Heitor

    None of that can be taken at face value, assuming that your political summary is accurate, given that Jewish identity at its root is ethno-supremacist.

    Jewish identity being defined by the Torah. The core of which being the Tanakh, which advocates for the nation destruction / submission of all other nations to Israel
     
    This sounds crazy. I don't believe in any of this. This sounds conspiracy-ish and anti-semitic.

    None of that can be taken at face value, assuming that your political summary is accurate, given that Jewish identity at its root is ethno-supremacist.

    Jewish identity being defined by the Torah. The core of which being the Tanakh, which advocates for the nation destruction / submission of all other nations to Israel

    This sounds crazy. I don’t believe in any of this. This sounds conspiracy-ish and anti-semitic.

    Stating that something “sounds crazy” is not a response. Rather, combined with what followed, sounds like typical hasbara rhetoric that seeks to merely label what it doesn’t like as crazy and anti-Semitic rather than to base those accusations on a substantial argument or retort.

    Let’s proceed from my statement. What exactly is “crazy”, “conspiracy-ish”, and “anti-semitic”?

    1. That Jewish identity, at its root, is ethno-supremacist?

    Jewish identity, at its root, is based on the Torah. That fact is not debatable. The core of the Torah is the aTanakh, with everything else being commentary on it. I could fill pages with quoted verse from the Tanakh that well confirm he fact that Jewish identity, as found in the Tanakh, is ethno-supremacist. In fact, the only challenge would be editing down the quoted verses to a manageable set of excerpts. Perhaps requesting those verses by topic would be one way to do that. So, on which topic do you want your proofs?:

    a. destruction of all other nations
    b. world domination
    c. destruction of all other religions
    d. genocide of non-Jews
    e. dispossession of non-Jews of their land.

    I have it pre-organized and ready to go.

    Their core five books, which every Christian has in their house, fully details their intentions and their core identity; with their expansive commentaries in the Talmud and Kabbalah not only confirming the long-standing validity of what is contained in those books (a standing validity that the Jews have a word for), but upping the intensity of their genocidal-fever and anti-gentile (anti-non-Jew) racism.

    Moreover, I have no shortage of recent Rabbinical commentary, as quoted in Jewish newspapers, which confirms all of this. The elderly Rabbis cannot help discussing their quest for slavery and genocide as they are drunk on their apparent success with Israel and the rest. No, the only conspiracy is one in fact. One that your lame protests are seeking to cover well-too-late.

    2. What is anti-Semitic? I would pose the question back to you. What is Semitic? If something is anti-Semitic, we have to know what the term Semitic ideologically implies.

    Semiticism seems to entail the national dispossession, genocide, and quest for world dominance if we are to both look at what the five core books state, at the constantly repeated accusations toward the Jews after each society observes them for a time, as well as the Jew’s printed modern statements. After that, we can get into genocidal texts like the Zohar. For fun, we can identify all the places where it is explained that non-Jews are not human but instead considered to be livestock, other animals, rocks, etc. We can even look to Rashi’s commentary for that.

    Being anti-Semitic is loyalty to humanity.

    I have multiple modern primary Jewish sources that outright admit what I am stating (aside from the main Torah source). See Rabbi Harry Waton’s book ” A Program for the Jews and Humanity”

    http://www.gwb.com.au/2000/myers/book.htm
    https://archive.org/details/AProgramForTheJewsAndAnAnswerToAllAntiSemites

    See Publications of the American Jewish Historical Society Number 28, page 33 (which I am staring at in this moment):

    “we, as a people, have not a great moral and, eventually, a physical struggle before us before the dawn of that immense day when in reality Israel will rule the world”

    However, I would not encourage others to look too far outside the core five books (The Old Testament). The core of it lies there.

    In summary:

    You have been called out too many times in history to have any credibility, your religious books admit your crimes, your Rabbis admit your crimes, your modern printed texts admit your crimes, and your crimes are obvious to the world. Your protests are child-like and almost funny in contrast. The paper thin barrier keeping your scam alive is a fast approaching tipping point that your media can barely delay. Now fuck off with your content-free posts and protests, Hasbara troll.

  197. Anon[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hail

    “White”[s] [...] have a genetic behavioral predisposition to not procreate when in proximity to non-Whites.
     
    With a deep dive into the data, I'd bet you could find correlation on that, but how could you even begin to take a stab at causation?

    I doubt that you could prove it beyond correlation. Though, I don’t have a University genetics education and don’t know if it is possible to link any behavior to an overly specific genetic cause. If it is possible, then perhaps that proof would be a future possibility assuming someone was motivated enough.

    For me, its merely a useful theoretical model that seems to comport well enough. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were some type of esoteric axiom, perhaps born out of long-standing knowledge earned in some deeper history, in some elite circles that know better what is going on in today’s world. See my prior post in regard to the theoretical possibility of this population imbalance having happened before (and perhaps multiple times).

    • Replies: @Hail

    See my prior post in regard to the theoretical possibility of this population imbalance having happened before
     
    It is inevitably harder to do this for an Anon. You seem like a good guy; Why not use a handle?
  198. @Anonymous
    Can anyone adequately explain how the Korean male ideal became so feminized? I haven't known many Korean men, but the ones I have known have been industrious, tall, and decently handsome to my admittedly heterosexual male eye. If I were a woman, they'd seem like quite good marriage material. But Korean girls idolize guys who look like women in drag. What gives?

    I blame anime and the whacky Japanese.

  199. @Lot
    That's a good joke, but I'm to drunk to see the connection.

    You seemed to use the argument that since obviously Jewish influence wasn’t increasing in Finland, it couldn’t have been the ultimate reason for the TFR collapse. Of course it’s a fallacy, since the effects could easily be cumulative. Similarly to how the shots of whiskey drunk by the cowboy had a cumulative effect, so even though his drinking was slowing down, its negative effects were getting better.

    • Replies: @Lot
    I see, Jewish influence is like whiskey for Finns. Tastes and feels good initially, but before long you have whiskey D and TFR crashes.
  200. @reiner Tor
    You seemed to use the argument that since obviously Jewish influence wasn't increasing in Finland, it couldn't have been the ultimate reason for the TFR collapse. Of course it's a fallacy, since the effects could easily be cumulative. Similarly to how the shots of whiskey drunk by the cowboy had a cumulative effect, so even though his drinking was slowing down, its negative effects were getting better.

    I see, Jewish influence is like whiskey for Finns. Tastes and feels good initially, but before long you have whiskey D and TFR crashes.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I don't think your original comment was very serious. Nor was mine. Analogies and comments are not to be followed that long.
  201. @Charles Erwin Wilson 3
    No, but American public sentiment, and Hungarian public sentiment differ.

    Look, Trump is so much better than any of the Republicans would have been, and any of them would have been better (even if a little) than Hillary that we must remember not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    Trump is so much better than any of the Republicans

    I understand what you mean in that I think we have all been tempted by this sentiment.

    I went over to Trump in Aug. 2015, after around two months of being pretty highly skeptical of what he said and ambivalent about the man himself, a position to which I have now reverted along with so many other ex-MAGA supporters. I’d say I firmly left the Trump camp as of late 2018 (once the dust cleared after the election in November). It was after wavering for a while. The first big symbolic act that the man was not what we were sold was the first bombing of Syria, April 2017. The dog that didn’t bark, though, was the lack of any real progress on the FAIR/NumbersUSA agenda across the board.

    To summarize: Trump rules like Jeb, and the underlying trends of hundreds of thousands more net immigrant-stock Nonwhites per quarter since Jan. 2017, and parallel White contraction, have all proceeded as they would have under Jeb, Hillary, or any of the other ‘frontrunners’ of late 2015 to early 2016. We elected Trump the insurgent and he has failed, leading many to the plausible theory that he never cared.

    Adding insult to injury, his actions bespeak the fact that he does seem to prioritize at least one form of nationalism over globalism, but not ours: Israel’s. The only ‘Europeans’ who got a nod from the 2019 State of the Union speech were Jews: The fifteen-minutes dedicated to the Holocaust in SotU (including obligatory standing ovations from both sides) were a real humiliation.

    In short, he is not better than any of the other Republicans, and may be worse.

    Cheerleading for Trump now is equivalent to enthusiastic campaigning for Dole ’96, Bush Jr. ’00, Bush Jr ’04, McCain ’08, etc. “They’re not perfect but so much better than the other guy!”

    not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    Here is another kind of maxim: Beware the temptations of cheerleading and its evil mutant twin, the full-blown personality cult. Maybe the personality cult can occasionally be acceptable or even good but definitely not when the image diverges so strongly from what the top figure and his group are delivering.

  202. @AnonFinn

    Mr. Halla-aho has five children: Four with his wife (b.2003 to b.2013) and one in 2015 with an unknown womanMr.
     
    Not so unknown.
    Quite a miracle that they are still married because Halla-Aho has been banging the same young political groupie for more than 10 years now.

    I notice the same thing contributed to the undoing of the Finnish Green Party leader:

    The Green Party’s head, until late 2018, was Touko Aalto (b.1984) who is childless. He got married in August 2015, but the wife filed for divorce two years later following the revelation of Mr. Aalto’s affair with a 24-year-old Green Party youth wing leader.

    How long was the affair with the 24-year-old Green youth leader? All I find are the dates of marriage and filing of divorce, which are exactly 24 months apart (Aug. 2015 marriage; Aalto assumes leadership of Green Party in June 2017; divorce filed in Aug. 2017). That is remarkably fast for Mr. Aalto to give up on his own marriage, and rather pathetic viewed from a distance. I almost pity the man. This is what traditional morality is for, after all. Have some dignity, Touko.

    Why would he do it? Here is Aalto and then-wife Marja Johanna Pietiläinen:

    It was reported in mid 2018 that

    Touko Aalto, the chairperson of the Green League, is currently on an indefinite sick leave due to exhaustion.

    But it actually follows his finalized divorce (early 2018) by a mere few months, so I would have to assume the divorce was the causative factor behind this “exhaustion.” Did anyone in the Finnish media share this speculation?

    Aalto’s departure also looks correlated with a drop in support for the Green Party, from 18% early in his tenure as Green Party Chair (nominally, June 2017 to Nov. 2018), down to 11% by the month he resigned.

    The seat forecasts are for the Greens to take 22 to 26 seats in April 2019 (11% to 13% of seats), which is still an increase over their current 15 (7.5% of seats). The new Green Party head, Pekka Haavisto (b.1958), is a biographical caricature of left-wing politics:

    Haavisto is openly gay; he lives in a registered partnership with Nexar Antonio Flores, an Ecuadorian man

    And yet one poll found him the most popular Prime Minister candidate in a hypothetical direct PM election (22%), ahead of a second-tier of three centrists (12 to 16% each), and then a meager 5% for ethnonationalist Finns Party Halla-Aho and the far-left’s Li Andersson (on whom, see above). I presume Mr. Haavisto’s relatively support is because of some kind of ambivalence about other left-wing figures like the likely next PM Antti Rinne.

    • Replies: @AnonFinn

    Why would he do it?
     
    I'd bet that young pussy + 2 reciprocal bipolars = gas and matches (and an unexpected sick leave due to deep depression)

    Don't mess with mania:
    https://www.ksml.fi/incoming/wx6uxh-toukopiiskaa.JPG/ALTERNATES/FREE_1140/toukopiiskaa.JPG
  203. @Anon
    I doubt that you could prove it beyond correlation. Though, I don't have a University genetics education and don't know if it is possible to link any behavior to an overly specific genetic cause. If it is possible, then perhaps that proof would be a future possibility assuming someone was motivated enough.

    For me, its merely a useful theoretical model that seems to comport well enough. I wouldn't be surprised if it were some type of esoteric axiom, perhaps born out of long-standing knowledge earned in some deeper history, in some elite circles that know better what is going on in today's world. See my prior post in regard to the theoretical possibility of this population imbalance having happened before (and perhaps multiple times).

    See my prior post in regard to the theoretical possibility of this population imbalance having happened before

    It is inevitably harder to do this for an Anon. You seem like a good guy; Why not use a handle?

  204. @Lot
    I see, Jewish influence is like whiskey for Finns. Tastes and feels good initially, but before long you have whiskey D and TFR crashes.

    I don’t think your original comment was very serious. Nor was mine. Analogies and comments are not to be followed that long.

  205. @Hail
    I notice the same thing contributed to the undoing of the Finnish Green Party leader:

    The Green Party’s head, until late 2018, was Touko Aalto (b.1984) who is childless. He got married in August 2015, but the wife filed for divorce two years later following the revelation of Mr. Aalto’s affair with a 24-year-old Green Party youth wing leader.
     
    How long was the affair with the 24-year-old Green youth leader? All I find are the dates of marriage and filing of divorce, which are exactly 24 months apart (Aug. 2015 marriage; Aalto assumes leadership of Green Party in June 2017; divorce filed in Aug. 2017). That is remarkably fast for Mr. Aalto to give up on his own marriage, and rather pathetic viewed from a distance. I almost pity the man. This is what traditional morality is for, after all. Have some dignity, Touko.

    Why would he do it? Here is Aalto and then-wife Marja Johanna Pietiläinen:

    https://img.ilcdn.fi/R5EkRefYluGLGe7Hx6OEXo-lq5c=/full-fit-in/612x/img-s3.ilcdn.fi/71afd352c4544d403a868924cf85e6b44a26a40e194c5c9ed13068c96325dbc8.jpg

    It was reported in mid 2018 that


    Touko Aalto, the chairperson of the Green League, is currently on an indefinite sick leave due to exhaustion.
     
    But it actually follows his finalized divorce (early 2018) by a mere few months, so I would have to assume the divorce was the causative factor behind this "exhaustion." Did anyone in the Finnish media share this speculation?

    Aalto's departure also looks correlated with a drop in support for the Green Party, from 18% early in his tenure as Green Party Chair (nominally, June 2017 to Nov. 2018), down to 11% by the month he resigned.

    The seat forecasts are for the Greens to take 22 to 26 seats in April 2019 (11% to 13% of seats), which is still an increase over their current 15 (7.5% of seats). The new Green Party head, Pekka Haavisto (b.1958), is a biographical caricature of left-wing politics:


    Haavisto is openly gay; he lives in a registered partnership with Nexar Antonio Flores, an Ecuadorian man
     
    And yet one poll found him the most popular Prime Minister candidate in a hypothetical direct PM election (22%), ahead of a second-tier of three centrists (12 to 16% each), and then a meager 5% for ethnonationalist Finns Party Halla-Aho and the far-left's Li Andersson (on whom, see above). I presume Mr. Haavisto's relatively support is because of some kind of ambivalence about other left-wing figures like the likely next PM Antti Rinne.

    Why would he do it?

    I’d bet that young pussy + 2 reciprocal bipolars = gas and matches (and an unexpected sick leave due to deep depression)

    Don’t mess with mania:

  206. @Clyde
    Thanks for all your Sverige commentary at unz. Unfortunately I have only spent one warm idyllic August day there a while back. Came into Malmo via ferry fr Denmark. Then drove w friends in a Swedish made automobile about 20 miles north to a hobby/farm. We cut down nettles with a scythe and ate delicious goose berries off their bushes. Ripe and sweet at their peak. Nature has its own poetry.

    Why, thank you. There’s a lot of nature, and it’s very beautiful when in the mood. If you ever fly to Stockholm, look out the window and see how vast the spruce forests are, with lakes dotted everywhere and occasionally farms, villages, even towns. (Much like Finland, I’d say.)

  207. @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    Who/Whom?
     
    Your affection for V.I. Lenin, is noted, once again Corvinus. The blood of 100 million innocents stain your hands, yet you have no shame. The dead testify against you now. And when that day comes, the dead will testify against you again. What will you say? "LOL?" Or some other shallow, detached, and supercilious response?

    And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Rev. 14:20

    You have skipped sowing the wind. You have gone straight to sowing the whirlwind. When you reap, will you be able to swim in the blood trodden Corvinus? You will be the first to recognize the reckoning, and the last to realize your role in it.

    “Your affection for V.I. Lenin, is noted, once again Corvinus.”

    The Three Little Pigs thank you for your strawman.

    “You will be the first to recognize the reckoning, and the last to realize your role in it.”

    So now you have a God complex as well? Only He himself knows. Why do you speak for Him?

  208. @AnotherDad
    Tyrion, Massimo Heitor tossed up some more points in response.

    But seriously. I said ethno-nationalism--sense of community\purpose\connection-to-the-future is key and gave an extended ethno-nationalist program, a good chunk of which was an explicit government pro-fertility program.

    Your, the-evidence-doesn't-support-you included China a nation which had a long extreme *anti-fertility* government program.

    At that point, that point what more is there to say?


    Then your Israel's not-ethno-nationalist assertion ... buttressed by the incredibly compelling evidence of the cheesy virtue signalling of a black beauty queen. (From the tiny ethiopean jewish community. While in fact Israel's taken great pains to get rid of Africans and stop them from entering.)

    ~~~

    Again. I stand by my assertion. The key to fertility and a future will be explicit ethno-nationalism ideology and policies that give people a larger sense of "belonging" to a nation and connection to the past and future.

    It also makes people's lives richer and makes them happier throughout the hatch-match-dispatch cycle of their lives.

    But seriously. I said ethno-nationalism–sense of community\purpose\connection-to-the-future is key and gave an extended ethno-nationalist program, a good chunk of which was an explicit government pro-fertility program.

    Your, the-evidence-doesn’t-support-you included China a nation which had a long extreme *anti-fertility* government program.

    At that point, that point what more is there to say?

    China is absolutely ethno-nationlist. Yes, they had an anti-fertility program, which is backwards in my eyes and to this crowd. I imagine many rich Chinese got upset at all the poor Chinese having large families, similar to how, at one point, the English were annoyed by the Catholic Irish having large, poor families.

  209. @j2
    About Finland: many Finns would not agree with my analysis, they never do, but that's their problem.

    The declining birth rate has a number of reasons. I will not even try to explain them as it has something to do with a misplaced believe in education, but a declining birth rate is a correct response to the current situation and to what can be expected in foreseeable future. It is because there will not be jobs in Finland for supporting a population as large as now. Because of this simple reason, taking more foreigners is about the most stupid thing that still can be done.

    I say still, as the really stupid moves were already made and cannot be taken back as the money was already lost. The first was releasing capital movement as joining EU required it. The second was fixing the currency to the EU currency, also done in order to join EU. A heavily propagandistic campaign was carried out for joining EU and the political elite managed to fool the majority.

    Nokia's temporary success was very harmful as it gave the impression that Finland could do well in EU. I tried to explain the issue with a ruler and a compass drawing a circle centered on the core of the EU, but nobody believed me as Nokia was doing so great. The final result of the collapse of Nokia mobiles was totally expected and could not have happened otherwise as the Finnish policy and geography dictated it.

    The basic truth is that Finland is too high up and to the east, unlike Sweden which is more to the south, and it has very modest natural resources, unlike Norway. A location like that is always in a disadvantage when deciding a new location for any investment. Foreign capital that came to Finland after releasing capital movements and joining EU was only for buying profitable Finnish enterprises. The concepts and innovations these enterprises have got copied and will finally be moved elsewhere, either closer to the center or to the third world. As long as capital movements were restricted, Finnish capital - though small as it was - was invested in Finland, which kept the industry in a competitive level. Investments in Finland fell after releasing capital movements, but unfortunately it was masked by some success stories, like Nokia, and the elite ignored the unavoidability of this mechanism. Later they noticed the truth, but it was too late. These intellectual giants, by the way, were not leftists this time. They were moderate rightists and praised themselves as economy experts. They believed everything the land-of-the-free super-geniuses told them.

    There is another basic truth in a location such as the one we are discussing. In a place like that a modern society must be supported by export: it is not a tourist county, not much grows, no oil. Naturally it can support about 2-3 million people, not more. Only very few fields have a natural advantage and can earn by export, like forests grow, though slowly. This money must be collected by taxes, which have to be relatively high, in order to support other fields. These other fields also need customs protection because the location is less favorable and they cannot compete long on totally free market. Removing customs in the EU had the expected result: a crash in 1993 caused by preparing joining and a crash in 2008 and a decline since. As export industry must be taxed in this model, the currency must be devaluated every now and then in order to keep the prices in the international market level. This is naturally not possible in EU.

    Combining these two basic truths it follows that producing almost anything is less profitable there than somewhere else. The money to divide must come from export since it does not grow in the land because of the weather or in the sea/lakes because they is what they are and there are only limited natural resources, which means that the few export products, like wood or chemical industry products must support the rest, but cannot be given a boost by devaluation, the population must be reduced: there can be: some export industry, sales of foreign products, and a limited public sector. And that's about it.

    Just to verify my point, let us notice that Northern states of the USA (without oil or in a good position to an ocean) are somewhat below Finland, which rather well shows the direction: without borders less fortunate areas do not do so well. Finland (GDP per capita 45,700 US$, area 330,000 km2, population 5 million), Montana (GDP per capita 39,400 US$, area 381,000 km2, population 1 million), Maine (GDP per capita 38,900 US$, are 91,600 km2, population 1.3 million). That's the way you go when being a remote part of a larger economic area. A population of about 2 million like in 1870, some paper industry factories and a gold mine may be the future for Finland. But they were asked and voted for it. It you want to create a working society in a less fortunate location with a fairly large population living on export, then do as it can be done. So, a declining birth rate is a good direction. There will be enough of Finns. So far the problem is not foreigners, but immigration should be restricted as there will not be work places for newcomers.

    The basic truth is that Finland is too high up and to the east, unlike Sweden which is more to the south, and it has very modest natural resources, unlike Norway. A location like that is always in a disadvantage when deciding a new location for any investment.

    How about all the natural riches in e.g. Hong Kong and Singapore?
    Did you now that western populations in low income rural and (declining) industrial areas also have worse polygenic risk scores for educational attainment?
    >degenerate baseline
    >progressively lower quality peripheral population due to meritocracy and selective migration to academic growth centers
    >stagnant growth in fly-over states
    >blah blah Montana, Maine…

    Naturally it can support about 2-3 million people, not more.

    I would also argue that population density can be a harsh limiting factor on growth on Information era. If a firm X needs e.g. 100 workers with IQ 130+ and a masters degree you would realistically need a population of >>10^4 to maximally cash in on economies of scale within commuting distance even if all the workers were capable and willing to work for the one company.
    In 1870 Finland was maybe a third poorer (per capita, ppp) than modern sub-saharan Africa and as a thought example halving the population in all Finnish cities would be awful for businessess and families: not enough information workers, declining culture and sport centers, no specialiced schools. Escalating dysgenic migration.

    Foreign capital that came to Finland after releasing capital movements and joining EU was only for buying profitable Finnish enterprises.

    Like the mining companies that cannot create a profit even with state subsidies?

    Combining these two basic truths it follows that producing almost anything is less profitable there than somewhere else

    Comparative advantage, econ101.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Interesting questions.

    Nokia couldn't keep it up forever, but it was hellaciously impressive that Finland led the world in cell phones for 10 or 15 years. I had an in-law who worked for Motorola when it was on top of the world in the booming cell phone business. Then the name "Nokia" started to crop up in his conversation. Uh-oh.

    On the other hand, if you are in the E.U. doesn't the weather seem better in Frankfurt, Stockholm, or London than in Helsinki?

  210. @AnonFinn

    The basic truth is that Finland is too high up and to the east, unlike Sweden which is more to the south, and it has very modest natural resources, unlike Norway. A location like that is always in a disadvantage when deciding a new location for any investment.
     
    How about all the natural riches in e.g. Hong Kong and Singapore?
    Did you now that western populations in low income rural and (declining) industrial areas also have worse polygenic risk scores for educational attainment?
    >degenerate baseline
    >progressively lower quality peripheral population due to meritocracy and selective migration to academic growth centers
    >stagnant growth in fly-over states
    >blah blah Montana, Maine...

    Naturally it can support about 2-3 million people, not more.
     
    I would also argue that population density can be a harsh limiting factor on growth on Information era. If a firm X needs e.g. 100 workers with IQ 130+ and a masters degree you would realistically need a population of >>10^4 to maximally cash in on economies of scale within commuting distance even if all the workers were capable and willing to work for the one company.
    In 1870 Finland was maybe a third poorer (per capita, ppp) than modern sub-saharan Africa and as a thought example halving the population in all Finnish cities would be awful for businessess and families: not enough information workers, declining culture and sport centers, no specialiced schools. Escalating dysgenic migration.

    Foreign capital that came to Finland after releasing capital movements and joining EU was only for buying profitable Finnish enterprises.
     
    Like the mining companies that cannot create a profit even with state subsidies?

    Combining these two basic truths it follows that producing almost anything is less profitable there than somewhere else
     
    Comparative advantage, econ101.

    Interesting questions.

    Nokia couldn’t keep it up forever, but it was hellaciously impressive that Finland led the world in cell phones for 10 or 15 years. I had an in-law who worked for Motorola when it was on top of the world in the booming cell phone business. Then the name “Nokia” started to crop up in his conversation. Uh-oh.

    On the other hand, if you are in the E.U. doesn’t the weather seem better in Frankfurt, Stockholm, or London than in Helsinki?

    • Replies: @AnonFinn

    On the other hand, if you are in the E.U. doesn’t the weather seem better in Frankfurt, Stockholm, or London than in Helsinki?
     
    Yeah much better.
    But for now free medical degree, 630$/month, subsidised transport, loans (effectively negative interest rates, even with margins) meals and housing with 99% white (not american "white") middle class families and college students is nice.

    The deprived peripheral areas also pay up to 4 times higher base salaries compared to starting salaries in university cities.

    Maybe it is a cultural thing (not fantasizing about lebensraum) being a 2nd generation elite school kid in a seemingly egalitarian society.
    I'd prefer to keep the tradition going instead of integrated village schools with the lower middle class kids and the refugees.
    Cities with <200 k population seem culturally and intellectualy medieval. (The top scorers, +96 th percentile, in the army IQ tests are also concentrated near bigger cities. My squad (conscription yay) in basic training had as many top scorers as an average company)

    With half the population density no salary would be enough to stay here.

    , @AnonFinn

    On the other hand, if you are in the E.U. doesn’t the weather seem better in Frankfurt, Stockholm, or London than in Helsinki?
     
    I think that the net migration of college educated people is about -2,5 k/year.
    And if the leavers are on average smarter than the new arrivals (corrected for education level) the reality is even worse.

    Every year:
    >2,5 k smart folks leave
    >up to 3 k smart folks replaced with mediocre people with bad options or failed dreams
    >10 k IQ 80-90 refugees

    Not good with only 45-50 k babies a year and positive economic IQ-/moxy-externalities.
    >Dwindling smart fraction
    >troubled heterogeneous schools
    >no new Nokia-miracles.

    The public sector, bureaucracies, is also the biggest employer of the smartest students. E.g
    our Nobelist Holmström has noted that in Finland more so than in neighbouring countries.

  211. @Steve Sailer
    Interesting questions.

    Nokia couldn't keep it up forever, but it was hellaciously impressive that Finland led the world in cell phones for 10 or 15 years. I had an in-law who worked for Motorola when it was on top of the world in the booming cell phone business. Then the name "Nokia" started to crop up in his conversation. Uh-oh.

    On the other hand, if you are in the E.U. doesn't the weather seem better in Frankfurt, Stockholm, or London than in Helsinki?

    On the other hand, if you are in the E.U. doesn’t the weather seem better in Frankfurt, Stockholm, or London than in Helsinki?

    Yeah much better.
    But for now free medical degree, 630$/month, subsidised transport, loans (effectively negative interest rates, even with margins) meals and housing with 99% white (not american “white”) middle class families and college students is nice.

    The deprived peripheral areas also pay up to 4 times higher base salaries compared to starting salaries in university cities.

    Maybe it is a cultural thing (not fantasizing about lebensraum) being a 2nd generation elite school kid in a seemingly egalitarian society.
    I’d prefer to keep the tradition going instead of integrated village schools with the lower middle class kids and the refugees.
    Cities with <200 k population seem culturally and intellectualy medieval. (The top scorers, +96 th percentile, in the army IQ tests are also concentrated near bigger cities. My squad (conscription yay) in basic training had as many top scorers as an average company)

    With half the population density no salary would be enough to stay here.

  212. @Steve Sailer
    Interesting questions.

    Nokia couldn't keep it up forever, but it was hellaciously impressive that Finland led the world in cell phones for 10 or 15 years. I had an in-law who worked for Motorola when it was on top of the world in the booming cell phone business. Then the name "Nokia" started to crop up in his conversation. Uh-oh.

    On the other hand, if you are in the E.U. doesn't the weather seem better in Frankfurt, Stockholm, or London than in Helsinki?

    On the other hand, if you are in the E.U. doesn’t the weather seem better in Frankfurt, Stockholm, or London than in Helsinki?

    I think that the net migration of college educated people is about -2,5 k/year.
    And if the leavers are on average smarter than the new arrivals (corrected for education level) the reality is even worse.

    Every year:
    >2,5 k smart folks leave
    >up to 3 k smart folks replaced with mediocre people with bad options or failed dreams
    >10 k IQ 80-90 refugees

    Not good with only 45-50 k babies a year and positive economic IQ-/moxy-externalities.
    >Dwindling smart fraction
    >troubled heterogeneous schools
    >no new Nokia-miracles.

    The public sector, bureaucracies, is also the biggest employer of the smartest students. E.g
    our Nobelist Holmström has noted that in Finland more so than in neighbouring countries.

    • Replies: @AnonFinn
    I must also add that our educational system with the current entrance exams and quotas is slightly rigged in favour of late bloomers (average student gets into a university on the 3rd try, I've also heard that in the past some of our standardised matriculation examinations have been reformed to lower the G-load) so many of our best students apply to foreign universities to avoid gap years and build CV.

    So those super smart cosmopolitan high school grads in the Ivy League ballpark, most of whom probably never return, would not be counted in those (tertiary educated net migration) statistics to begin with.
  213. @AnonFinn

    On the other hand, if you are in the E.U. doesn’t the weather seem better in Frankfurt, Stockholm, or London than in Helsinki?
     
    I think that the net migration of college educated people is about -2,5 k/year.
    And if the leavers are on average smarter than the new arrivals (corrected for education level) the reality is even worse.

    Every year:
    >2,5 k smart folks leave
    >up to 3 k smart folks replaced with mediocre people with bad options or failed dreams
    >10 k IQ 80-90 refugees

    Not good with only 45-50 k babies a year and positive economic IQ-/moxy-externalities.
    >Dwindling smart fraction
    >troubled heterogeneous schools
    >no new Nokia-miracles.

    The public sector, bureaucracies, is also the biggest employer of the smartest students. E.g
    our Nobelist Holmström has noted that in Finland more so than in neighbouring countries.

    I must also add that our educational system with the current entrance exams and quotas is slightly rigged in favour of late bloomers (average student gets into a university on the 3rd try, I’ve also heard that in the past some of our standardised matriculation examinations have been reformed to lower the G-load) so many of our best students apply to foreign universities to avoid gap years and build CV.

    So those super smart cosmopolitan high school grads in the Ivy League ballpark, most of whom probably never return, would not be counted in those (tertiary educated net migration) statistics to begin with.

  214. @Anonymous
    Uhhhh....does that include gypsy women?

    Taxes are on thing. But the loans which are forgiven by the time the fourth child comes along will be a problem. We (Eastern Euros) have foreign watchdogs watching us like hawks for discrimination, especially against the gypsies, since they are our underclass minority. How do you funnel the loans to your own people while avoiding the appearance of discrimination? That is a problem. Even if you award the loans on the basis of keeping a steady job and paying your bills on time, which would weed out many gypsies, there will still be a mismatch. Not to mention that the banks may change their lending standards if they are sure the fine upstanding gentleman in front of them will have 4 kids and so his capacity for repayment is irrelevant.

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