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From Stat News:
By Usha Lee McFarling
Dec. 13, 2021
… While medicine as a whole, and even other elite specialties like dermatology, thoracic surgery, and otolaryngology, has begun to increase the number of people of color in its ranks, orthopedics’ numbers have barely budged. Less than 2% of those practicing in the field are Black, just 2.2% are Hispanic, and 0.4% are Native American. Even Asian American physicians, a group considered overrepresented in medicine, are much scarcer in orthopedics, making up just 6.7% of these specialists.
At \$511,000 in 2020, orthopedic specialists rank at the top of the medical pay charts, along with plastic surgeons, according to Dark Daily for pathologists. They averaged the highest bonus at \$116,000.
Orthopedics is also the most male of specialties:
Medscape found that women MDs chose certain medical specialties more often than others, including pathology, which ranked eighth. The top eight specialties employing female physicians are:
Pediatrics: 61%
Obstetrics/gynecology: 59%
Diabetes/endocrinology: 50%
Family medicine: 47%
Dermatology: 46%
Infectious diseases: 46%
Internal medicine: 44%
Pathology: 43%Specialties with the fewest female physicians are:
Plastic and general surgery: 20%
Cardiology: 14%
Urology: 11%
Orthopedics/orthopedics surgery: 9%
Orthopedic surgeons are kind of the carpenters of surgery, working on the musculoskeletal system. At the top of the game are the famous sports surgeons who have their famous athlete patients fly into Aspen or Vail to be operated upon.
Perhaps the orthopedic surgeon best known to the general public was Dr. Frank Jobe (1925-2014), who invented the Tommy John operation for baseball players in 1974. Not too surprisingly, I see that he had landed behind enemy lines in a glider on D-Day, then was captured at the Battle of the Bulge, and then escaped.
So I’m guessing that orthopedic surgeons tend to be winners.
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Good news for anyone facing a hip replacement, for instance. There’s only a 2 percent chance they’ll panic and have the urge to run out the door when they meet the surgeon and he looks like George Floyd.
Given that they need a hip replacement, the odds of them running out the door would seem pretty small regardless.
Jesus Christ. It was not called “Washington football team” back then. I hate shitlibs so much.
Academically competitive to get into (NB, among medical specialties) and it is the last corner of the professions where more upper body strength will make you better at the job.
I have a not-directly-related piece on sex and choice of specialty here: https://www.parhasard.net/entry/2018/10/23/01:28/
We need more female urologists. Or maybe not. Urology patients want a doctor who “looks like me.” What percentage of patients who need a urologist are female? Or rather, what percentage of urologist consultation hours are with females? Maybe equity would men women can easily find nd insist on a female urologist and men can easily find and insist on a male urologist. Who isn’t black, or if he is black, has his MCAT results framed on the wall.
Medscape found that women MDs chose certain medical specialties more often than others, including pathology, which ranked eighth.
Isn’t the attraction of women to pathology somewhat counter to expectations? Isn’t the trend normally for women to prefer working with people over slides and tissue samples? Is it easier to work flexible hours as a pathologist?
Similis simili gaudet.
Northwestern Orthopedics is mostly Indian nowadays, albeit jock-y American born Indian. My wife's ankle surgeon was great. But the other big orthopedic practices still have the stereotype - and they have the juice to tell Blue cross to pound sand.Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @slumber_j
And one look in a woman's handbag makes it clear, which is the sex attracted to disgusting things.
Orthopedists are useful doctors. They can really fix you up.
Public Heath “Doctors”, like Little Tony Fauci, on the other hand…………they ain’t worth a bucket of warm spit.
Remember William Gorgas, and all he did to successfully fight yellow fever and malaria? Or how Dr. John Snow (no, not the GOT Snow) found the link between contaminated water and cholera? Or how Kanehiro Tanaka solved the problem of beriberi? You get the idea.
Time to crack your spine, white boy!
Dermatology at \$394K ….. I thought that speciality would be over crowded –and hence lower compensation — with married MD women who want to work x3 days per week 9am to 5 pm?
"You don't get called at 3 am because someone has a nasty rash" Replies: @Mike Tre
He also told me one of the reasons he chose dermatology was because the hours were regular.Replies: @Bill Jones, @E. Rekshun
Uh, these happen to be the four highest paying specialties, right? Is that just coincidence? This will be good fodder for politicians braying about equal pay. Female doctors are underpaid! Says right here! Shut up about the details.
Positions of female physicians are as expected.
With, in my opinion, one exception- cardiology. There should be more female cardiologists, along the line: I’m killing you- I’m healing you.
Isn't the attraction of women to pathology somewhat counter to expectations? Isn't the trend normally for women to prefer working with people over slides and tissue samples? Is it easier to work flexible hours as a pathologist?Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Hodag, @Jim Lahey, @Hitmarck, @baythoven
Female psyche being something of a pathology on steroids, it is as expected.
Similis simili gaudet.
The New Segregation is Sane versus Insane, and the wrong side is winning.
You're just a Saneist. https://www.joannejacobs.com/2021/11/mad-studies-fights-saneism-on-campus/
There is really no end to your bigotry.
Perhaps the orthopedic surgeon best known to the general public was Dr. Frank Jobe (1925-2014), who invented the Tommy John operation for baseball players in 1974. Not too surprisingly, I see that he had landed behind enemy lines in a glider on D-Day, then was captured at the Battle of the Bulge, and then escaped.
Wow. Thanks, Steve.
Are we sure about these salaries? If true then the multiple between doctors salaries and an average middle class person is really high.
According to these links, the average lawyer makes \$122K and the average doctor is \$206K. Even if these lower salaries are true, I didn’t think doctors historically made twice what a lawyer does.
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/physician/salary
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/lawyer/salary
Then when they are 31 or so, they are in considerable debt (there are no scholarships for med school) or their parents really want to see a return on their investment. But they are finally ready to make money. Do they go into practice on their own? They take on yet more debt, then go through years of living hand to mouth before the big money comes. Buy a practice/get in on a practice with an existing clientele? More debt. Then come taxes. I’m not sure how professional practice is taxed, but I'm pretty sure they don’t pay capital gains tax rates. They pay ordinary income rates. And they pay the highest rate on most of their income.Unlike other high-flying professionals like corporate lawyers, they deal with the underclass all the time. Not just that, but they deal the most with the most irresponsible members of the underclass.To a large extent, that’s why they were historically Republicans. Today? Like the college-educated crowd, they are largely Democrats, I'm sure.The fact that so many people graduating medical schools and residencies are women means the supply is even further restricted when they take time off to have kids. But what about the debt? Don’t worry, their husbands are doctors.I have no idea how to get doctors on board with making medicine sane. Much less how to be fair to both old and new doctors. I think the “solution” we will have is inflation cutting their salaries down to what are arguably more reasonable numbers. There is also the fact that medicine competes for every smart, ambitious college student with finance. Once the Great American Bust Out is over, finance will be a much smaller chunk of the economy. That will cut doctors’ income over the long term.We might just make doctors either surgeons or managers, with the vast majority of patient contact being through nurse-practitioners or physicians assistants. Doctors will only see patients when the nurse practitioner has already screwed up their condition.
Before I even saw the 2nd excerpt, I had this in mind about Pediatrics. There are lots of women in it. So, do people just want to pay women less? No, there are many more women doctors than men who work fewer hours and even solidly part-time.
OTOH, I know a cardiologist who works his ass off, 10-12 hour days a lot, usually 6 a week, and often with some Locum Tenis work (look, it’s not my job to remember my Latin here – they could easily just write “contract work”) on some of what would be off weeks. I’m betting he makes a good bit more than the Cardiology average of \$459,000.
When I asked him why he’s working so hard, he said he’s “behind on bills”. !!! Dude! (Nope, he’s not divorced, even once, and he doesn’t own any big boats.)
No big deal.
I’ll be stealing that later today. I have occasion to chat with one.
“The Millionaire Next Door” talked about how doctors like your buddy exist.
I have a good friend who, though not a surgeon himself, works closely with them and is often present during surgery. This “carpenters of surgery” description is pretty apt. He said it’s just a horror show of hammers and saws, with lots of pounding and grunting. According to him, if you have a choice, always go with a neurosurgeon over an orthopedic (he specializes in back/spine issues, where both are usually an option).
There’s a purely practical reason for few women in orthopedics: it takes a lot of strength to dislocate a hip, cut out the original structure, implant the replacement and maneuver the whole thing back into alignment.
“You’ve seen that ‘Home Improvement’ programme? Like that.”Replies: @Jack D
And holding a hacksaw and pliers.
I prefer the orthopedic surgeons who don’t get captured
Strange that on TV they have black bodies or are wise Latina(x) Lesbians.
Isn't the attraction of women to pathology somewhat counter to expectations? Isn't the trend normally for women to prefer working with people over slides and tissue samples? Is it easier to work flexible hours as a pathologist?Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Hodag, @Jim Lahey, @Hitmarck, @baythoven
It’s the hours. Same with dermatology.
Northwestern Orthopedics is mostly Indian nowadays, albeit jock-y American born Indian. My wife’s ankle surgeon was great. But the other big orthopedic practices still have the stereotype – and they have the juice to tell Blue cross to pound sand.
“Even Asian American physicians, a group considered overrepresented in medicine, are much scarcer in orthopedics”
Maybe Orthopedic doctors are just better at handing their profession to their sons. White/Jewish people are circling the wagons around a few professions they are able to control.
What I would like to see are statistics about female vs. male doctors on measures such as (1) average hours worked a week; (2) vacation taken divided by years working; (3) age at which one started working part-time if one did; and (4) age at retirement. My question: Is non-discrimination at the pre-med and medical school level contributing to the shortage of doctors over all? (The second question would be, What are the main factors that contribute to the shortage of doctors?)
Longtime Chicago Bears long snapper Patrick Mannelly is married to Tommy John’s daughter.
Agreed.
“You don’t get called at 3 am because someone has a nasty rash”
Northwestern Orthopedics is mostly Indian nowadays, albeit jock-y American born Indian. My wife's ankle surgeon was great. But the other big orthopedic practices still have the stereotype - and they have the juice to tell Blue cross to pound sand.Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @slumber_j
The Indian doctor stereotype goes back a long way – this was written (lyrics Herbert Kretzmer, Dave Lee music) in 1960.
Wiki – “The song was conceived and instigated by George Martin, who was the producer at that time of Peter Sellers’s comedy recordings. Martin commissioned David Lee and Herbert Kretzmer to write the song. Martin himself produced the recording. Martin envisaged the song as a recording to be incorporated in the soundtrack of the film The Millionairess which was being filmed at that time starring Sellers and Loren. However, the film’s producers did not share his enthusiasm for including the song in the film’s soundtrack and did not utilize it. The studio was however happy to see the song released as a stand-alone single to promote the film.”
“Sellers and Loren developed a close relationship during filming, culminating in Sellers declaring his love for her in front of his wife. Sellers also woke his son at night to ask: “Do you think I should divorce your mummy?””
Another Jewish/Indian crossover/appropriation is Monty Norman’s Good Sign, Bad Sign, written for a stage production of Naipaul’s A House For Mr Biswas, but which ended up in John Barry’s hands as the James Bond theme.
Northwestern Orthopedics is mostly Indian nowadays, albeit jock-y American born Indian. My wife's ankle surgeon was great. But the other big orthopedic practices still have the stereotype - and they have the juice to tell Blue cross to pound sand.Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @slumber_j
Jock-y: the big-time orthopedic surgeon I know (Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC and now a private practice mostly for athletes, team doctor for an MLB ball club, etc.) rowed on the varsity heavyweight eight for Harvard. He has the winning attitude you want in surgeons generally, plus I think it may actually help to be big and strong when you’re in his particular line of work.
Moving from the endless middle to the bottom of the top *, especially in big cities, can be dangerous and can end in tears and humiliation:
https://nypost.com/2021/07/26/nyc-surgeon-beauty-queen-wife-settle-divorce-amid-hooker-allegations/
*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uixQtkbfO9c
I prefer my orthopedic surgeons not to be captured…
If you’ve ever witnessed a shoulder surgery absolutely. Docs look like they are hitting a tackling sled when they’re doing the procedure. Very violent. I’m surprised there are any women orthos
Orthopedic surgeons make just enough money that they can fall into a dangerous trap.
Moving from the endless middle to the bottom of the top *, especially in big cities, can be dangerous and can end in tears and humiliation:
https://nypost.com/2021/07/26/nyc-surgeon-beauty-queen-wife-settle-divorce-amid-hooker-allegations/
*
After almost 40 years of playing sports, I’ve gotten to know a few orthopedists over my life. All previously were old white guys with white hair, but the latest one, a hand specialist who repaired my carpel tunnel in both wrists, is a Texas-born Vietnamese guy and he’s great. Very manly, very athletic, very jock-y. More or less fits right in with the personalities of the others, right down to the accent.
But I found him as the result of a positive referral from a friend. I didn’t go around looking for a non-white doctor. Anyone who picks a doctor based on how their skin color makes them feel is a fool.
The important detail that journalists glide right by is how “progress” is made in increasing the representation of certain minorities in demanding fields like medicine. When they talk about removing barriers, what they really mean is removing standards that would get applied to whites or Asians.
So perhaps this is more a guide to which areas of medicine are most corrupted by political correctness. Similarly, Greatschools.org is supposedly a resource for parents about local schools and their performance, and their “equity” metric is particularly useful in determining where the parents of above average white or Asian kids should definitely not send them, although obviously that’s not what they intended it for.
If you use Schooldigger enough, you simply get used to:
Dark Blue and Dark Red = GOOD,
Yellowish-green = NOT HELPFUL
Orange = WHO KNOWS (so I'd better at least drive by during recess)
Light Blue = A NON-FACTOR (unless you are thinking of west-river S. Dakota)
Light Green = Gonna have a good wrestling team, if nothing else, and
Dark Green = BAD, mmmkaay?
I think Bill Cosby was onto something back in the 1970s.
In case you are confused by the above, Peak Stupidity explains it for you in The Legend of SchoolDigger.Replies: @Jack D, @Jenner Ickham Errican
It really did back when you had to amputate legs with a hand saw. For some reason, orthopedic surgery still attracts athletes. Maybe it’s because many youth athletes break bones and then wind up as the patients of orthopedic surgeons?
When I was an aspiring pre-med in the 1970s I encountered a black orthopedic surgeon named Daniel Gaither at the hospital where I did a summer externship. He was popular, successful and brilliant. Twenty years later he was killed by his estranged wife, who then committed suicide.
I actually have a friend whose younger sister recently became a urologist.
Steve-was the “winners” comment a dig on the late John McCain, and Trump’s famous campaign comment about not liking him?
If so, good one!
With, in my opinion, one exception- cardiology. There should be more female cardiologists, along the line: I'm killing you- I'm healing you.Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @guest007
Isn’t cardiology like neurosurgery – an all-consuming vocation with little room for part-timers?
From what I’ve heard from friends and acquaintances who have been to med school and gone through the matching process is that dermatology is one of the more competitive fields to enter for that very reason. Not everyone can enter their preferred field once they’ve completed med school and rotations or whatever process there is.
We need more female urologists. Or maybe not. Urology patients want a doctor who “looks like me.” What percentage of patients who need a urologist are female? Or rather, what percentage of urologist consultation hours are with females?
Various and sundry Tinkle Troubles such as bladder infections seem to be mostly a women’s thing. After all, a woman’s peehole and Hershey Highway exit ramp are very close together, making the passage of nasty bacteria quite easy.
Pee-wee stinging, "can't pee" events, and rashes are usually handled by a GP or a gynecologist since it only involves a cream prescription. The first time it happens it might involve a trip to the emergency room ("I can't pee!), but once the woman knows what it is, she doesn't make a special trip to a urologist. Actually, Walgrens staff can usually deal with this stuff.
Drippy older women may make a couple of visits until they figure out that the cure is diapers ... from Walgrens.
My GP is my one-stop guy. I will figure out what meds I need from a visit to a dermatologist or ENT or whatever, then have my GP do subsequent prescriptions. I bring in the medicine's data sheet so he'll know what to "diagnose." He's game for it. Even before Covid I hated wasting time at specialist doctor appointments.
Furthermore I believe a lot of dermatologists have a side hustle consisting of Botox and other skin-rejuvenating treatments.
That's not a side hustle, it's the majority of their business. Rashes are the side hustle.
As a urologist joked one time: I deal with old people who cannot pee. Most old people are women.
There are very few spots in residencies for dermatology and they are the most competitive. The big four are most difficulty to get into are dermatology, cardiology, radiology, and ophthalmology. Of course, cardiology requires a fellowship after an internal medicine residency.
With, in my opinion, one exception- cardiology. There should be more female cardiologists, along the line: I'm killing you- I'm healing you.Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @guest007
A big part of cardiology these days is being an interventional cardiologist that requires being cardiac cath qualified. It is probably the ultimate medical job requiring spatial relations since one has to look at two fluoroscopic images at the same time and image the 3-d image in one’s mind.
I thought neurosurgeons were at the top of the heap, but I don’t see them on the graph.
Thirty years ago, one of my brother’s friends was paid \$1000/hr as a temporary ER doc in DC, but I think he paid his own insurance.
From what I understand, while those orthopedists who specialize in sports medicine indeed may see some young athletic patients, the field’s patient base otherwise consists mainly of old people.
Here’s a link to 7 qualities of exceptional orthopedists. The article doesn’t really answer the question. I therefore think the actual answer is an unsayable. I think the answer lies in what I will call a high need for validation. The public perception is that most ortho tasks are largely mechanical. You don’t get much validation from being a guy who mainly works with plaster (casts), slings, walking boots, and crutches. Better to be a guy who works with a prescription pad and the inscrutable scribbling that arises from coming-up with a differential diagnosis.
https://orthoserviceline.com/2017/09/01/7-qualities-every-exceptional-orthopedic-surgeon-will/
LARRY DAVID: You’re comfortable with a strange woman sticking her finger up your ass?
SETH ROGEN: I don’t care who is sticking their finger up my ass. All sexes can do all jobs.
LARRY DAVID: What kind of woman becomes a urologist anyway?
SETH ROGEN: A very bright, enterprising woman who wants to make dicks and butts better!
I would have expected proctology to be the highest-paid speciality with an even 50/50 split. How many patients would want a proctologist of the opposite gender I wonder.
Interesting breakdown. I date this one ER doc casually and her other friends in residency say that ER is competitive because of better quality of life. They are mostly internists and pediatricians. This rather surprised me, having never been in an ER before in my life. I assumed it was a very demanding job emotionally and mentally, and even physically with the twelve hour shifts. Especially for a small woman like this girl I know. I figured that it mainly appealed to macho, adrenaline junkie types but all these other girl docs were jealous of my friends ER residency. Am I missing something?
ER docs don't really do much besides treat very minor ailments and triage. If someone comes in with mangled limbs from a car accident, you call the orthopedic trauma surgeon who takes them to the ER. If someone comes in having a heart attack, yeah, you start the treatment protocol but you call the internist on call who admits them to the ICU and takes it from there. It's not like on TV where the ER doc is actually treating all those things himself.Replies: @Aidan Kehoe
She will almost certainly earn more per hour than the paediatricians and possibly the internists, but when she finishes residency she may have to adjust her expectations away from how she sees her current attendings living. (This all assumes the doctor you’re dating is in the US.)
In my part of the world the remuneration isn't as extravagant (but is still good). Emergency Medicine isn't particularly attractive as a specialty here because there is no avenue to private work, so the salary in the public system will be all you earn. (Cardiologists can do private angiograms, orthopaedic surgeons can replace knees privately, as a GP I a) have private patients (in the Republic of Ireland) b) do minor surgery and other interventions other GPs don't, fee for service, and c) have the option of taking on more public patients and earning more money by working harder.)
I'd strongly prefer a average trained ED doc to be present if someone I cared about had something life-threatening going on, over the alternative of an average trained GP, an average trained cardiologist, or an average trained rheumatologist. But respect from other doctors doesn’t pay your child’s costs for college, it doesn't pay for your child's braces, exam prep; it's very hard to pay for a holiday with your family with it.Replies: @Anon
So perhaps this is more a guide to which areas of medicine are most corrupted by political correctness. Similarly, Greatschools.org is supposedly a resource for parents about local schools and their performance, and their "equity" metric is particularly useful in determining where the parents of above average white or Asian kids should definitely not send them, although obviously that's not what they intended it for.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
Agreed, Arclight. Just as with “Justice Map” which I use in a very different way than the creator intended, I, and many others I’m sure, use Schooldigger and Great Schools for their own ends. “Diversity is baaad, mmmkaaay?” [/Mr. Mackey]
If you use Schooldigger enough, you simply get used to:
Dark Blue and Dark Red = GOOD,
Yellowish-green = NOT HELPFUL
Orange = WHO KNOWS (so I’d better at least drive by during recess)
Light Blue = A NON-FACTOR (unless you are thinking of west-river S. Dakota)
Light Green = Gonna have a good wrestling team, if nothing else, and
Dark Green = BAD, mmmkaay?
I think Bill Cosby was onto something back in the 1970s.
In case you are confused by the above, Peak Stupidity explains it for you in The Legend of SchoolDigger.
Dr. Jobe would have been 19 on D-Day. The mind reels.
Tuition? That’s why I’m working my ass off. Kids are a bad investment. Very low ROI.
On the contrary , there is no higher return on investment.Replies: @JMcG
I had an unpleasant experience with an ortho this year. Gave me a cortisone treatment for my inflamed, arthritic hip. Arrogant and unpleasant. When I mentioned this to my primary care Dr. he replied…”That’s why orthos have more malpractice suits filed against them. They know everything better than any one else.” Conceit leads to procedure that are not necessary or safe. That’s what I heard. Need the extra money to pay their Malpractice Insurance preniums.
Usha Lee McFarling.
We need a datatbase of bylines from the stories Steve highlights, with maybe an annual award for the most creatively diverse or overwrought. There have been some real lulus in a profession once dominated by the Lous, Chucks and Susans of the world.
Isn't the attraction of women to pathology somewhat counter to expectations? Isn't the trend normally for women to prefer working with people over slides and tissue samples? Is it easier to work flexible hours as a pathologist?Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Hodag, @Jim Lahey, @Hitmarck, @baythoven
We have a friend, a lady pathologist, who said she left obstetrics because she was tired of dealing with obese women’s (and teens’) smelly pannus flaps. It seems to have discouraged her from having her own children, which is tragic. But now she works 9-5 in a lab. Not bad.
Not too many black Orthopedic doctors but probably one kid with that as a first name. A black thing, give your kid a profession for their first name, hence Lawyer Malloy and his brother Doctor Malloy and the brothers Priest and Bishop Holmes, all NFL players.
Augustus White III? Sure is!
This is true of most medical specialties other than those expressly reserved for younger people (pediatrics, obstetrics). Just like most independent garages work on older cars – when you get older is when things start to fail more often.
If you use Schooldigger enough, you simply get used to:
Dark Blue and Dark Red = GOOD,
Yellowish-green = NOT HELPFUL
Orange = WHO KNOWS (so I'd better at least drive by during recess)
Light Blue = A NON-FACTOR (unless you are thinking of west-river S. Dakota)
Light Green = Gonna have a good wrestling team, if nothing else, and
Dark Green = BAD, mmmkaay?
I think Bill Cosby was onto something back in the 1970s.
In case you are confused by the above, Peak Stupidity explains it for you in The Legend of SchoolDigger.Replies: @Jack D, @Jenner Ickham Errican
Did they change the color code? I just looked at that site and “green” means good schools (i.e. white and Asian population) and “red” means “bad” (everyone else).
At every medical practice in my mid-size city, all the medical staff practicing dermatology are all young female PAs and ARNPs, all working under one MD. The dermatologists’ waiting rooms are like an endless conveyor belt from 7:00am to 5:00pm, ringing up Medicare. The MD dermatologist has got to be making double what’s posted above. This is in Florida.
I found a good one, but sadly he is retiring at year end. I called two other dermatology practices and said that, while I was ok with a PA for routine visits, I wanted an MD for my initial visit. They said no.
PAs and Nurse Practitioners are the wave of the future. They are one of the few ways possible to hold down costs.
They are going to have to rename Washington soon because Washington was a slave owner. Maybe they could just say it is named in honor of George Washington Carver, but I heard a rumor that they are going to call it “City of Football Team”.
This happened in the other Washington. Seattle's King County honored Vice President William Rufus DeVane King, but was recently rededicated to that preacher man.
Both Kings are said to have shared beds with black men, so there is some continuity.
These salaries seem low. A family member doc works for a large health insurance company pushing paper and makes \$800K per year (including \$400K bonus). She left private practice 20 years ago and hasn’t seen a patient since. Been working from home for almost two years. Her boss (not a doc) makes \$100K more.
He’s probably just in the hock to his coke dealer and mob bookie.
No big deal.
I just had my knee replaced 5 weeks ago, and I’ll be having my hip replaced next month, both by the same surgeon. He’s 6’6″ tall and looks like Howdy Doody. More important, though, are his degrees from Duke and Johns Hopkins and his position as a staff orthopod at Mass General.
He cracked me up on my follow up. He was inspecting my well-healed incision and he turned to his PA to ask “That’s real nice. Did we do that?”!
I hope these operations put you in better shape, Brutusale.Replies: @Brutusale
If you use Schooldigger enough, you simply get used to:
Dark Blue and Dark Red = GOOD,
Yellowish-green = NOT HELPFUL
Orange = WHO KNOWS (so I'd better at least drive by during recess)
Light Blue = A NON-FACTOR (unless you are thinking of west-river S. Dakota)
Light Green = Gonna have a good wrestling team, if nothing else, and
Dark Green = BAD, mmmkaay?
I think Bill Cosby was onto something back in the 1970s.
In case you are confused by the above, Peak Stupidity explains it for you in The Legend of SchoolDigger.Replies: @Jack D, @Jenner Ickham Errican
AEN, it’s been mentioned here recently: Redfin and now Realtor are banning neighborhood crime data from their sites. Any kind of school rankings could be next.
I guess Realtor will soon pull or “private” this video:
Jack, that color code you’re talking about is pretty general. It’s based on test scores and that, which, of course, we all know is actually based, yes, on the proportion of White, Oriental, and •Indian kids.
You could, if you wanted, read my blog post, but to explain here, it’s when you get to the “Students” tabs that have actual demographic data that (on School Digger) has the legend I described for their bar graphs.
I don’t want the vague (Red-orange-yellow-light-green-dark-green) 1 through 10 scores. I want to see who goes to the school. I’m sure other parents think the same way.
I saw that Redfin gave a downright Orwellian explanation about this in a post by Paul Kersey the other day. They could have at least just bullshitted that they didn’t have all the data or had bugs, or whatever. What they wrote was so stupid as to be insulting.
Thanks.
When people are putting their life savings into a home they put their moral fantasies aside and turn on their reality radar. Lucky for them that high crime neighborhoods will always be easy to spot, just by looking at the race of the neighbors.
Most doctors have a pretty good sense of humor … unless you don’t have insurance…
I hope these operations put you in better shape, Brutusale.
Because of my excellent outcome on the knee, he said we could do the hip right away instead of waiting the usual 6 months, much to my gratification. Then last week his office called to tell me that our illustrious governor, Sorry Charlie Baker, declared a moratorium on "elective" surgeries! I want the bastard to spend ONE day experiencing the pain that I have right now.
So here I am, waiting.
I'd also like to take the opportunity to thanks all of those driven clean out of their minds by the WuFlu. With every twinge of pain I feel I owe a debt of gratitude to those sheep who acquiesced to each and every lunatic mandate. It must be making me stronger!
I wonder if there are any little black boys running around named Free Safety or Cornerback or Point Guard?
Orthopedic surgeons tend to be jock/frat-bro type guys. So it was only a matter of time before the wokists started to come for them.
I have an orthopedist friend who’s of Indian extraction, but American-born, conservative Evangelical Christian, and a sportsball fanatic. He complains about the liberalism of his few female colleagues and the constant push to get more of them into the field.
It’s because it offers lots of opportunity to do cash-on-the-barrelhead cosmetic procedures.
What about neurosurgery? That has to be one field that is just as if not more white male dominated than orthopedics. It’s also the highest paid field. Neurosurgeons routinely make over \$1M a year, especially with back/spine surgeries now becoming more commonplace. The chart only has neurology. Neurologists do not perform surgeries.
My mother’s cousin was an orthopedic surgeon, who chose to practice in Montana so he could hunt and fish. Pictures of him hauling huge portions of game out of the wilderness are common. And he retired to get a fine arts degree.
Absolutely right about the brute strength effect. Bone setting can require more of it than many female med students want to or can exert with high precision. Amazing how few people know this.
My old dermatologist in southern California had an interesting take on his job. He said “I’m a small businessman. It just so happens that the product I sell is dermatology.”
He also told me one of the reasons he chose dermatology was because the hours were regular.
They never die
They never get better
They never wake you in the middle of the night.
That was before Melanomas became fashionable.
If one thing is certain it’s that non-black home buyers (liberals included) will avoid high crime neighborhoods like the plague when choosing their new home. If the Realty websites stop giving out neighborhood crime stats then home buyers will seek other sites that have it. If crime stats are banned from all media then home buyers will get in their cars and drive around and look at the skin color of the people on the street.
When people are putting their life savings into a home they put their moral fantasies aside and turn on their reality radar. Lucky for them that high crime neighborhoods will always be easy to spot, just by looking at the race of the neighbors.
Isn't the attraction of women to pathology somewhat counter to expectations? Isn't the trend normally for women to prefer working with people over slides and tissue samples? Is it easier to work flexible hours as a pathologist?Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Hodag, @Jim Lahey, @Hitmarck, @baythoven
They are into Horror/Slasher Films more than men too in my experience.
And one look in a woman’s handbag makes it clear, which is the sex attracted to disgusting things.
I just tried again and the Color: % {Race} tabs seem to be broken on the maps. However, you can sort by race on the Table view. Here’s a hint – if you are white, do not send your kid to the Imhotep Institute Charter High School. The name gives it away.
Everybody tries to write like Sailer, myself included
I may or may not live in Louisiana, Jack, as this is just a sample. What I tried to do was give you a link that got you to the page the user gets to AFTER clicking the “Students” tab (6th one, “Overview”, “Boundary”, “Rankings”…. ) That didn’t didn’t work. The link gets you to the more general page. Those 7 tabs are approximately at the middle of the page up-and-down-wise. Click the “Students” one. I will say that on a tablet with a metric shit-ton of tabs open, the site sucks.
Right here for R.V. Kerr Middle School in Bossier City – LUV those Cajun names!
I picked the number 400 ranked school in the State of Louisiana of 700-odd schools, again as just a sample.
I like tables too, for actual numbers, but once you see this, you’ll see that there were a plurality of whites, errr, light blues, but there were almost as many blacks, errr, dark greens too. That was in the 1990s, though. Look at it for the last couple of years though! Owww! (It gives a nice yearly series of bars, so one can see the trends – also pretty important).
I don’t think this brings you to gender equity in urologist visit count or visit hours.
Pee-wee stinging, “can’t pee” events, and rashes are usually handled by a GP or a gynecologist since it only involves a cream prescription. The first time it happens it might involve a trip to the emergency room (“I can’t pee!), but once the woman knows what it is, she doesn’t make a special trip to a urologist. Actually, Walgrens staff can usually deal with this stuff.
Drippy older women may make a couple of visits until they figure out that the cure is diapers … from Walgrens.
My GP is my one-stop guy. I will figure out what meds I need from a visit to a dermatologist or ENT or whatever, then have my GP do subsequent prescriptions. I bring in the medicine’s data sheet so he’ll know what to “diagnose.” He’s game for it. Even before Covid I hated wasting time at specialist doctor appointments.
I’ve had 2 hugely long lasting and successful back operations and in both cases the big-Rolex-super confident-surgeon-to-pro athletes (selected by me as the best sign of competence) seemed almost exclusively interested in the surgical incision post-op.
Strange. In the UK orthopaedics is considered a dull speciality for plodders. The viola players of the profession.
In the UK, orthopedic surgery is also the highest pay specialty after plastic surgery. Time to re-evaluate viola players I guess.Replies: @HOOLIGAN
The first black mayor of Washington was named Washington. They can rename it after him.
This happened in the other Washington. Seattle’s King County honored Vice President William Rufus DeVane King, but was recently rededicated to that preacher man.
Both Kings are said to have shared beds with black men, so there is some continuity.
Isn't the attraction of women to pathology somewhat counter to expectations? Isn't the trend normally for women to prefer working with people over slides and tissue samples? Is it easier to work flexible hours as a pathologist?Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Hodag, @Jim Lahey, @Hitmarck, @baythoven
The appeal of pathology for a female Med student friend of mine was not having to deal with patients. In the end, however, I don’t think she much enjoyed her career as a pathologist, for she retired early, and that wasn’t with any purpose of rearing a family.
My first career was as a bank officer in a large metro area. Docs generally spend lavishly and have high debt levels. Many tend to be slow pay and are arrogant. “I have lots of money so why are you bothering me about my credit card limit?”
Some other observations: A neurosurgeon told me he liked surgery because he liked his patients asleep. He also said women docs tend to select specialties which require shorter periods of work because they have poorer bladder control. Brain surgery is for men.
Also, met a friend of my husband’s who is an orthopedic nurse and his wife is an orthopedic doc. I don’t know what she looks like but he is a huge man.
Do white people ever get credit for creating modern medicine? I suppose not. They don’t seem to get any credit for inventing modern life generally. Instead they’re forever damned as keeping nonwhites out. Yet these fields (like the modern West generally) wouldn’t exist at all if it weren’t for white people, and mostly white guys.
The Whitest Specialty in medicine is denial.
Africans and Indians have have broad-based Ivermectin/Hydroxy.. programs, meanwhile in the West
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/joe-rogan-peter-mccullough-doctors-worldwide-restricted-treating-covid-patients/
Censorship abounds
https://thenationalpulse.com/news/governments-want-crackdown-on-telegram-app-used-to-organize-anti-covid-lockdown-protests/
Hospital try to kill patients and ignore court orders
https://www.fauquier.com/news/update-judge-holds-fauquier-hospital-in-contempt-for-not-administering-ivermectin-to-covid-19-patient/article_8cb9853e-5c3d-11ec-8635-376fda43665b.html
And people are dropping like flies
https://www.zerohedge.com/medical/have-professional-athletes-become-canary-covid-coalmine
While in the oh so vaccinated halls of the Premier league soccer Teams games are called off because of an outbreak of the covid
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/dec/16/covid-premier-league-weekend-shutdown-brentford-thomas-frank
Not a mention of the year long death-shot program that was supposed to stop this.
A control-F search for vaccine finds nothing.
Lies, bullshit and murderous denial, that’s the White Specialty.
There was a time when most ER docs were trained in some primary care field, but as there have been a board of emergency medicine and emergency medicine residencies for decades now, they are almost all out and most ER docs now are emergency-medicine-residency trained.
ER docs don’t really do much besides treat very minor ailments and triage. If someone comes in with mangled limbs from a car accident, you call the orthopedic trauma surgeon who takes them to the ER. If someone comes in having a heart attack, yeah, you start the treatment protocol but you call the internist on call who admits them to the ICU and takes it from there. It’s not like on TV where the ER doc is actually treating all those things himself.
Orthopedists havc some of the highest rates of cancer of any professions known, due to their extremely high exposure to X-rays. Having the protons getting knocked off of your DNA constantly by ionizing radiation is really, really bad for you.
Speaking of cancer and X-rays, I wonder how many of the cases of cancer in otherwise healthy people are caused by the over-prescription of CT scans? According to the statistics I saw, they estimated that 2% of *all* cancers are caused by CT scans. A single abdominal CT scan, for instance, delivers roughly 15 milliSieverts of ionizing radiation. That is equivalent to as much as 1,000 chest X-rays and almost 6 years of background radiation that you get from bombardment from distant supernovae. Doctors over-prescribe these exams, which can significantly shorten your life, because insurance re-enburses hospitals and private practices for them, and they make huge amounts of money for it. It’s a quick, 15 minutes way for the doctor to make as much as 2K. Your halth is not as relevant as the doctor purchasing the second yatch. There are some situatiuons where a CT scan isa bsolutely necessary, like if you suffer a car crash and are all mangled inside and doctors need to see the damage to save your life. But at least 90% of the time, these exams are unnecesary, and doctors prescribe them just to make a quick \$\$\$\$\$\$. Capitalism at it’s finest.
Urology isn’t really about urine, or at least not predominantly. Most urologists are mostly about male genitals. A urologist is more or less the equivalent of a gynecologist, except for men.
There is a whole lot of overlap in the various subjects and fields but that’s because there is a lot of overlap between genitals and urine.
Similar to “Chelsea” Manning being named as the individual who released the Collateral Damage video to wikileaks.
According to these links, the average lawyer makes $122K and the average doctor is $206K. Even if these lower salaries are true, I didn't think doctors historically made twice what a lawyer does.
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/physician/salary
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/lawyer/salaryReplies: @Jack D, @Rob
There is an oversupply of lawyers vs. doctors. There are lots of lawyers who don’t even practice because they can’t get law jobs. Law school is (at least for the people who have the brains for it) a relatively easy 3 years and out. Medical education is much more grueling and takes much longer, especially in the specialties.
It's one thing to know how to amortize a life insurance policy with various and sundry tax considerations and to set up a model for it in excel, or to remember the basic gist of some judicial decision and be clever enough to apply it to your own particular situation and then go look up the reference.
But it's entirely another to memorize every bone and muscle in the body and all of the different complex chemical reactions between hormones and drugs and receptors and yada yada yada.
Although I'm not at all a hero worshipper of all doctors, I still respect what they had to accomplish to get their MD degree.
He also told me one of the reasons he chose dermatology was because the hours were regular.Replies: @Bill Jones, @E. Rekshun
A dermatologist once told me that a patient was an annuity:
They never die
They never get better
They never wake you in the middle of the night.
That was before Melanomas became fashionable.
I got a lot of CT scans back in the 1990s due to my cancer.
Are you trying to argue that because CT scans, which use radiation, are useful for seeing internal tumours, that somehow makes radiation benevolent when it comes to cancer? Because you are dead wrong. The Federal Government even recognizes radiation workers as people that deserve early retirement and extra pay due to the immense health risks that they run. for instance, men that work on nuclear submarines must already have children as they become infertile due to the radiation, and they get an extra in salary for the risks they take. People that work in nuclear power plants need to undergo exams twice a year to see what their white blood cell count is as leukemia often is a consequence of gamma rays killing your leucocytes.
I really don't understand where you are going with this one-liner comment out of nowhere. But "I got a lot of CT scans", followed by "for cancer treatment" are huge red flags that makes it seem like you are suggesting that I am wrong that ionizing radiation is bad for you. Maybe you should start using your brain? Because you are dead wrong.Replies: @Hibernian
There are two questions to ask an orthopedic surgeon: How tall are you and what sport did you play. It is rare to find an orthopedic surgeon who is under six feet and orthopedic surgery is where jocks go to practice medicine. I meet one who played football at Georgia and then did his residency in Buffalo.
The women have a tendency to become hand surgeons since they usually skip the knee joint replacement and hip replacement parts of their rotations during residency.
Furthermore I believe a lot of dermatologists have a side hustle consisting of Botox and other skin-rejuvenating treatments.
That’s not a side hustle, it’s the majority of their business. Rashes are the side hustle.
I had an Ob/Gyn who went through the manufacturers training course on using a skin rejuvenation laser. he said that women who were in the clinic for a check up could get the skin treatment. Of course, unlike the check up the skin rejuvenation was cash and carry medicine that had to be pre-paid.
Do [bipeds] ever get credit for creating modern medicine?
Do [mammals] ever get credit for creating modern medicine?
Do [vertebrates] ever get credit for creating modern medicine?
I think you have to be more specific. Anyway, the only reason to ask the question is in defense, as in “Do [men] ever get credit for creating modern medicine?” That’s a sign that there is a feminist in the immediate vicinity.
A canary-in-the-coalmine situation.
Tuition? That’s why I’m working my ass off. Kids are a bad investment. Very low ROI.
On the contrary , there is no higher return on investment.
I needed a dermatology referral last spring and I told my doctor that I wanted an old white guy not a 26 yo PA. White had nothing to do with it – I wanted an MD with experience.
I found a good one, but sadly he is retiring at year end. I called two other dermatology practices and said that, while I was ok with a PA for routine visits, I wanted an MD for my initial visit. They said no.
PAs and Nurse Practitioners are the wave of the future. They are one of the few ways possible to hold down costs.
The New Segregation is Sane versus Insane, and the wrong side is winning.
You’re just a Saneist. https://www.joannejacobs.com/2021/11/mad-studies-fights-saneism-on-campus/
There is really no end to your bigotry.
He also told me one of the reasons he chose dermatology was because the hours were regular.Replies: @Bill Jones, @E. Rekshun
A doctor friend once told me dermatology is easy, one basic rule – “If it’s dry, wet it. If it’s wet, dry it.”
I suppose you didn’t feel it appropriate to inquire about the Malpractice award?
On the contrary , there is no higher return on investment.Replies: @JMcG
It was written in jest. Of course they are the very best investment. Merry Christmas to you.
With something in between: “inter faeces et urinam nascimur”.
Strange. In the UK orthopaedics is considered a dull speciality for plodders. The viola players of the profession.
In the UK, orthopedic surgery is also the highest pay specialty after plastic surgery. Time to re-evaluate viola players I guess.
What percentage of black women can spell “orthopedist”? I’m guessing “Arthur Pedics” is as close as anyone will come.
Orthopedists are pretty conservative politically, since they don’t rely on socialized medical payments the way other specialists might (lots of elective surgeries from rich clients). Also a lot of former jocks, the “big swinging dicks” of the medical profession.
Not too many black Orthopedic doctors but probably one kid with that as a first name. A black thing, give your kid a profession for their first name, hence Lawyer Malloy and his brother Doctor Malloy and the brothers Priest and Bishop Holmes, all NFL players.
It’s not without historical precedent. After Charles Guiteau shot president James Garfield in 1881 Doctor Doctor Willard Bliss took charge of Garfield’s care. That’s correct, his first name was Doctor, though he normally went by Willard Bliss to avoid sounding absurd.
Bliss’ medical care was shockingly incompetent. In particular, he probed the wound channel with his unwashed finger, a practice that had once been commonplace but had almost entirely vanished by 1881. When Alexander Graham Bell tried to locate the bullet with a form of primitive metal detector Bliss allowed him to examine only one part of Garfield’s abdomen as he insisted that’s where the bullet surely must have been. The autopsy showed it to have been in a different area.
Thanks to Bliss’ incompetence a completely survivable wound became hugely infected, and Garfield died a hideous death a couple months later. Bliss then had the temerity to submit an enormous bill to the government; fortunately, he got nothing.
When Guiteau went on trial he argued that he may have shot Garfield but wasn’t responsible for his death because of all the medical incompetence. A novel argument, but it didn’t save him from a necktie party.
And then there's Prince.
(And there might be Andrew, the Autist formerly known as Prince- depending on what we learn in the Maxwell trial)
“Perhaps the orthopedic surgeon best known to the general public was Dr. Frank Jobe (1925-2014), who invented the Tommy John operation for baseball players in 1974.”
The orthopedic surgeon I know most about is Dr. Terry Trammell. He’s done pioneering work in auto racing safety and helped piece back together many race car drivers who suffered horrific foot, ankle, and leg injuries like Rick Mears, AJ Foyt, Jim Crawford, Derek Daly, and Nelson Piquet among others. Many former drivers owe their ability to stand and walk to his work on them.
According to these links, the average lawyer makes $122K and the average doctor is $206K. Even if these lower salaries are true, I didn't think doctors historically made twice what a lawyer does.
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/physician/salary
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/lawyer/salaryReplies: @Jack D, @Rob
You have to keep in mind the time it takes to start practicing for real money. Four years of med school is a long time. four to seven years as a resident. I don’t know how much residents make, but it’s not a lot.
You also should keep in mind that medicine pays so well that it draws smart, competitive peo0le who are mostly motivated by success. For a lot of people, they want success because they like winning. The years of college were probably not onerous. All their friends went, too. Parties, the prettiest girls go to college, especially given the income dependence of the obesity epidemic, so college is great.
Medical school, though is hard. The coursework is too difficult to allow much partying. Also, they are broke while their friends who did not go to medical school are flying high, especially so given the dominance of the financial sector. Their friends are making 100k plus a bonus after four years in finance, at least the ones they compare themselves to. They are looking to four years (minimum) of, too lazy to google, maybe 40k a year.
Then when they are 31 or so, they are in considerable debt (there are no scholarships for med school) or their parents really want to see a return on their investment. But they are finally ready to make money. Do they go into practice on their own? They take on yet more debt, then go through years of living hand to mouth before the big money comes. Buy a practice/get in on a practice with an existing clientele? More debt. Then come taxes. I’m not sure how professional practice is taxed, but I’m pretty sure they don’t pay capital gains tax rates. They pay ordinary income rates. And they pay the highest rate on most of their income.
Unlike other high-flying professionals like corporate lawyers, they deal with the underclass all the time. Not just that, but they deal the most with the most irresponsible members of the underclass.
To a large extent, that’s why they were historically Republicans. Today? Like the college-educated crowd, they are largely Democrats, I’m sure.
The fact that so many people graduating medical schools and residencies are women means the supply is even further restricted when they take time off to have kids. But what about the debt? Don’t worry, their husbands are doctors.
I have no idea how to get doctors on board with making medicine sane. Much less how to be fair to both old and new doctors. I think the “solution” we will have is inflation cutting their salaries down to what are arguably more reasonable numbers. There is also the fact that medicine competes for every smart, ambitious college student with finance. Once the Great American Bust Out is over, finance will be a much smaller chunk of the economy. That will cut doctors’ income over the long term.
We might just make doctors either surgeons or managers, with the vast majority of patient contact being through nurse-practitioners or physicians assistants. Doctors will only see patients when the nurse practitioner has already screwed up their condition.
Public Heath "Doctors", like Little Tony Fauci, on the other hand............they ain't worth a bucket of warm spit.Replies: @TG
Well, yes and no. Certainly Fauci is pretty much a fraud, but a GOOD AND HONEST ‘public health’ doctor is worth their weight in gold.
Remember William Gorgas, and all he did to successfully fight yellow fever and malaria? Or how Dr. John Snow (no, not the GOT Snow) found the link between contaminated water and cholera? Or how Kanehiro Tanaka solved the problem of beriberi? You get the idea.
Physician quality, like quality of meat, sofas, underwear, and so forth, ranges from crappy to exceptional. The reason why average salaries for doctors are significantly higher than that of other skilled laborers is due to government interference, particularly in how it boosts demand for medical services while restricting the supply of [credentialed] providers.
Like it does for schools/teachers.
I avoid going to the doctor; I give in so as to mollify my domestic partner. The only doctor whose professional services I am resigned to use (only because it’s legally unavoidable) is the guy who’ll sign my death certificate. Still, it’s really something how brief an actual appointment can be, after waiting many weeks to get in. It’s very tiresome to hear the doctor spit back the material he memorized from a textbook. No kidding?! WebMD told me the same thing.
You're very adept at persuading people you're a fanatic.Replies: @JMcG
"You don't get called at 3 am because someone has a nasty rash" Replies: @Mike Tre
You do if you’re Hunter Biden’s dermatologist.
I’ve never gotten paid for ordering a CT scan. The ordering doctor does not get paid for ordering it. The radiologist gets paid for reading it, but he doesn’t order it, so it’s not up to him whether it’s done in the first place.
I am not sure what is your point here. Radiotherapy, which is one of the most effective treatments for cancer, uses ionizing radiation to kill cancer cells. Does that make radiation anti-cancer? Sure, in that context. But ionizing radiation is one of the primary factors that causes double-strand breaks to DNA and, with it, cancer. 99% of the time ionizing radiation is pro-cancer and not anti-cancer.
Are you trying to argue that because CT scans, which use radiation, are useful for seeing internal tumours, that somehow makes radiation benevolent when it comes to cancer? Because you are dead wrong. The Federal Government even recognizes radiation workers as people that deserve early retirement and extra pay due to the immense health risks that they run. for instance, men that work on nuclear submarines must already have children as they become infertile due to the radiation, and they get an extra in salary for the risks they take. People that work in nuclear power plants need to undergo exams twice a year to see what their white blood cell count is as leukemia often is a consequence of gamma rays killing your leucocytes.
I really don’t understand where you are going with this one-liner comment out of nowhere. But “I got a lot of CT scans”, followed by “for cancer treatment” are huge red flags that makes it seem like you are suggesting that I am wrong that ionizing radiation is bad for you. Maybe you should start using your brain? Because you are dead wrong.
Kickers miss field goals all the time.
In 2000 I worked for a law firm that defended brokerage houses. They cover themselves against liability by requiring new customers to fill out a form as to income and preferred risk level. One such form I saw was by a NorCal dermatologist. He stated his income as \$2 million a year. He was suing because he lost \$500k.
I will never fail to enjoy reminding people that that the Secret Service has detailed some especially much-loved employee to make sure Hunter Biden does not accidentally set himself on fire when smoking crack.
In most cases today your PCP is an employee of an giant impersonal hospital system and has to meet very stringent productivity standards. He or she is on a hamster wheel, required to see another patient every 15 minutes all day long. Within the first minute of your visit they will be strategizing “how can I get this person out the door” and get ready for the next.
This makes me think of a talk I heard years ago from Eric Heiden, probably the greatest Olympic skater in history. His father was an orthopedic surgeon and forbade him from playing football because of the injury risk (or maybe certainty). So he went into other sports. Eric then became an orthopedic surgeon himself.
Aren’t they called gastroentorologists now?
Ortho means straight.
Any member of the “more equal than others” demographic knows that straight equals bad (i.e., bad meaning “not good” — not bad meaning good).
Well, just who is left to be the “orthos” when the “more equal than others” demographic self-selects themselves out of any activity related to straightness?
‘Good news for anyone facing a hip replacement, for instance. There’s only a 2 percent chance they’ll panic and have the urge to run out the door when they meet the surgeon and he looks like George Floyd.’
Given that they need a hip replacement, the odds of them running out the door would seem pretty small regardless.
I’d say your guess is closer to the truth than the decent guesses of Mr. McG, TWGH, and Bill Jones. He owns a number of different pieces of real estate, as the IRS would ream him even harder if he didn’t. I think he got behind putting money into some of these. Another of the things I think he might be behind in, again, is paying the IRS back taxes and penalties. He has a worse attitude than I have about the Infernal Revenue Service, if that’s even possible!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GXPd0fnpKwReplies: @Achmed E. Newman
Agreed, and the ability to follow the catheter without x-raying the living out of the patient to where his chest hairs catch on fire. Additionally, if you can do interventional an electrophysiology, you will be in high demand.
That’d work great in China, Joe. I don’t know if it was just a Mao/Commie thing, but it’s common there to call people by their professions, like “Teacher Luo” or whatever. That’s how you get your “Chairman Mao”. Apparently Chairman was not his real first name. It was Zedong. You could call him anything but not LateForDinner Mao.
I agree. In fact, I believe that the UK’s NHS, building on years of experience, tends to persuade women and smaller guys to paediatric orthopaedics. When I learned the “nuts and bolts” of the hip replacement procedures I’d be undergoing, it was a relief to see the surgeon looking like the veteran of a thousand rugby matches. The physiotherapist I had then (himself a retired Australian professional rugby player) attended the first operation; his description:
“You’ve seen that ‘Home Improvement’ programme? Like that.”
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/surgical-plates-screws-operation-traumatology-surgical-plates-screws-operation-traumatology-case-129813914.jpg
The whole business is not unlike carpentry.Replies: @Cortes
I would be curious to know where each specialty ranks on average among medical school graduates.
Anon[199], what’s going on there is Emergency Medicine in the US was very well remunerated for supply and demand reasons until the last couple of years (when the graduates of a big number of new residencies came on the market). This meant that you could have a good quality of life with twelve shifts a month. It also meant that EDs in undesirable (= non-SWPL) places were (and remain, in large part) staffed by doctors trained in other specialties, usually Family Medicine.
She will almost certainly earn more per hour than the paediatricians and possibly the internists, but when she finishes residency she may have to adjust her expectations away from how she sees her current attendings living. (This all assumes the doctor you’re dating is in the US.)
In my part of the world the remuneration isn’t as extravagant (but is still good). Emergency Medicine isn’t particularly attractive as a specialty here because there is no avenue to private work, so the salary in the public system will be all you earn. (Cardiologists can do private angiograms, orthopaedic surgeons can replace knees privately, as a GP I a) have private patients (in the Republic of Ireland) b) do minor surgery and other interventions other GPs don’t, fee for service, and c) have the option of taking on more public patients and earning more money by working harder.)
I’d strongly prefer a average trained ED doc to be present if someone I cared about had something life-threatening going on, over the alternative of an average trained GP, an average trained cardiologist, or an average trained rheumatologist. But respect from other doctors doesn’t pay your child’s costs for college, it doesn’t pay for your child’s braces, exam prep; it’s very hard to pay for a holiday with your family with it.
As far as I recollect, he didn't even do a residency when he graduated in the early 1970s. He just showed up at the Detroit ER after graduation and got his hands dirty working under the guys there who were pretty used to treating acute lead poisoning. I guess it was an ersatz residency but nothing formal, he just worked the floor there for two years and the chief of medicine of the hospital wrote him a letter saying "this guy is competent as a ER doctor in a level 1 trauma center" and he took that to the next place and the next place and so on. I always thought that seemed like an efficient system for producing docs, but it is far outside my expertise so perhaps the current system is better.
His big gripe with the path of Emergency Medicine in America was that yes, pay was increasing, but that the Doctor's role had been completely changed from sort of the quarterback of a group of nurses and midlevels to an internal consultant who PAs and NPs would bring in to provide expertise on "their" patients. In so many words: they were being paid more but the internal mystique and respect given to the ER doctor in the ward had evaporated as mid-levels and hospital administration completely removed doctors from almost all leadership roles in the hospital. I wonder if the same things are occurring in Ireland.Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Aidan Kehoe
As I wrote before, neurosurgery is about 90% male: https://www.unz.com/isteve/harvard-crimson-miasma-theory-of-white-supremacy/#comment-4991834
Here are the data sources:
https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/data/table-12-practice-specialty-females-race/ethnicity-2018
https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/data/table-13-practice-specialty-males-race/ethnicity-2018
I remember the good ole days when we called him Mao Tse-Tung.
Neurosurgery is the most remunerative speciality in Australia .Plastic surgery is somewhat behind . Most doctors would say this makes sense
ER docs don't really do much besides treat very minor ailments and triage. If someone comes in with mangled limbs from a car accident, you call the orthopedic trauma surgeon who takes them to the ER. If someone comes in having a heart attack, yeah, you start the treatment protocol but you call the internist on call who admits them to the ICU and takes it from there. It's not like on TV where the ER doc is actually treating all those things himself.Replies: @Aidan Kehoe
Hermes, as a US doctor, why was the money for ED work so good over there? My working guess as an outsider was that for a huge number of hospitals patients admitted through the ED bring in a big chunk of the revenue, and EMTALA meant it had to be a doctor who picked and chose whom to admit and whom to discharge; and those with specialist training would manage higher throughput.
In the UK, orthopedic surgery is also the highest pay specialty after plastic surgery. Time to re-evaluate viola players I guess.Replies: @HOOLIGAN
Snobbery, no doubt. This is the Brit middle classes.
Rather plebeian compared to Duke Ellington and Count Basie.
And then there’s Prince.
(And there might be Andrew, the Autist formerly known as Prince- depending on what we learn in the Maxwell trial)
It’s the gold standard of X rays. They’re ordered so often bc they work so well. They can be one a crutch bc docs don’t want to be sued for something they missed so they figure F it just get the best. Long term negative effects are unlikely though but they are expensive and over proscribed.
And the thighs on that man!
What’s Beth up to?
Not that my academic prowess is anything to brag about, but I’m amazed by the sheer amount of rote knowledge that doctors – of any specialty – are required to have.
It’s one thing to know how to amortize a life insurance policy with various and sundry tax considerations and to set up a model for it in excel, or to remember the basic gist of some judicial decision and be clever enough to apply it to your own particular situation and then go look up the reference.
But it’s entirely another to memorize every bone and muscle in the body and all of the different complex chemical reactions between hormones and drugs and receptors and yada yada yada.
Although I’m not at all a hero worshipper of all doctors, I still respect what they had to accomplish to get their MD degree.
It’s the Ob/Gyn equivalent of candy in the check-out lane.
Not only that, but they are required by their corporate employers to push certain narratives and care plans. This is hugely evident these days with regards to covid vaccines and treatments. Peter McCullough has done a fine job lately exposing this.
Private practice doctors have been much more publicly vocal about alternatives to the official narrative (i.e. HCQ and Ivermectin, vaccinating children, risk of reinfection, masks), whereas doctors who are employees of large systems will usually just parrot back whatever the “CDC recommendation” is when asked. I have experienced this firsthand over the past six months, both for myself and my children. These doctors don’t want to lose their jobs, after all, and when you are an employee, the boss is always right so they will tell patients whatever the boss tells them to say.
The federal government has worked really hard to consolidate medicine into large conglomerate practices over the past 20-30 years. One reason is bureaucratic efficiency and Medicare cost cutting but another is that like all large companies, big public health systems are run by conformists and are more willing to go along to get along when it comes to government regulation. They are much easier to control. To politicians, this is a feature, not a bug.
As mentioned above, a private practice physician is an entrepreneur and they usually think independently like entrepreneurs. When one is pushing collectivism for political purposes, independence anywhere cannot be abided.
(NB – one could also say that culturally, whites are the most likely to be independently minded and hard to control compared to a foreign born doctor who’s here on a visa of some kind… foreigners are used to government control and are less likely to buck their masters… but that’s a slightly different discussion.)
Colorectal surgeons.
Black doctors cause me anxiety, because affirmative action casts suspicion on skilled and incompetent black doctors alike. I therefore exclude black doctors solely on the basis of race.
“You’ve seen that ‘Home Improvement’ programme? Like that.”Replies: @Jack D
A few years ago I shattered my arm in a bike accident and it’s held together with stainless plates and screws. The screws look like something that you would buy at Home Depot (and so does the cordless drill that they use). You can see them quite clearly in x-rays.
The whole business is not unlike carpentry.
Having smashed a shoulder (tripping on a loose shoelace - oh! was that sore!) and enduring three ops, I know similar hardware.
The Aussie physio described the train of five carts carrying various tools for the hip replacement as like an industrial process, all delivering tools just-in-time to the surgeon.
Are you trying to argue that because CT scans, which use radiation, are useful for seeing internal tumours, that somehow makes radiation benevolent when it comes to cancer? Because you are dead wrong. The Federal Government even recognizes radiation workers as people that deserve early retirement and extra pay due to the immense health risks that they run. for instance, men that work on nuclear submarines must already have children as they become infertile due to the radiation, and they get an extra in salary for the risks they take. People that work in nuclear power plants need to undergo exams twice a year to see what their white blood cell count is as leukemia often is a consequence of gamma rays killing your leucocytes.
I really don't understand where you are going with this one-liner comment out of nowhere. But "I got a lot of CT scans", followed by "for cancer treatment" are huge red flags that makes it seem like you are suggesting that I am wrong that ionizing radiation is bad for you. Maybe you should start using your brain? Because you are dead wrong.Replies: @Hibernian
Do you mean sworn uniformed crew members, or shipyard workers working on the reactors?
Any member of the "more equal than others" demographic knows that straight equals bad (i.e., bad meaning "not good" -- not bad meaning good).
Well, just who is left to be the "orthos" when the "more equal than others" demographic self-selects themselves out of any activity related to straightness?Replies: @Hibernian
It means “right.” In geometry orthogonal means perpendicular.
She will almost certainly earn more per hour than the paediatricians and possibly the internists, but when she finishes residency she may have to adjust her expectations away from how she sees her current attendings living. (This all assumes the doctor you’re dating is in the US.)
In my part of the world the remuneration isn't as extravagant (but is still good). Emergency Medicine isn't particularly attractive as a specialty here because there is no avenue to private work, so the salary in the public system will be all you earn. (Cardiologists can do private angiograms, orthopaedic surgeons can replace knees privately, as a GP I a) have private patients (in the Republic of Ireland) b) do minor surgery and other interventions other GPs don't, fee for service, and c) have the option of taking on more public patients and earning more money by working harder.)
I'd strongly prefer a average trained ED doc to be present if someone I cared about had something life-threatening going on, over the alternative of an average trained GP, an average trained cardiologist, or an average trained rheumatologist. But respect from other doctors doesn’t pay your child’s costs for college, it doesn't pay for your child's braces, exam prep; it's very hard to pay for a holiday with your family with it.Replies: @Anon
Thanks that’s a good explanation. I wonder if the big influx of new Osteopathy schools trying to break the MD cartel fully is also playing a part. My dad just retired after 40 years in the ER as a DO, and certainly his pay seemed to spike in the last decade, although I had assumed that was due to senority or something. He says that when he first started working, DOs were such a rarity that MDs assumed (usually without rancor but not always) that he was a chiropractor of some kind and not an actual physician licensed by the board of medicine. I think that is much different now. I don’t even know if the new DO schools focus on alignment or whatever the special osteopathic chiropractic technique is, that’s old school.
As far as I recollect, he didn’t even do a residency when he graduated in the early 1970s. He just showed up at the Detroit ER after graduation and got his hands dirty working under the guys there who were pretty used to treating acute lead poisoning. I guess it was an ersatz residency but nothing formal, he just worked the floor there for two years and the chief of medicine of the hospital wrote him a letter saying “this guy is competent as a ER doctor in a level 1 trauma center” and he took that to the next place and the next place and so on. I always thought that seemed like an efficient system for producing docs, but it is far outside my expertise so perhaps the current system is better.
His big gripe with the path of Emergency Medicine in America was that yes, pay was increasing, but that the Doctor’s role had been completely changed from sort of the quarterback of a group of nurses and midlevels to an internal consultant who PAs and NPs would bring in to provide expertise on “their” patients. In so many words: they were being paid more but the internal mystique and respect given to the ER doctor in the ward had evaporated as mid-levels and hospital administration completely removed doctors from almost all leadership roles in the hospital. I wonder if the same things are occurring in Ireland.
As far as I recollect, he didn't even do a residency when he graduated in the early 1970s. He just showed up at the Detroit ER after graduation and got his hands dirty working under the guys there who were pretty used to treating acute lead poisoning. I guess it was an ersatz residency but nothing formal, he just worked the floor there for two years and the chief of medicine of the hospital wrote him a letter saying "this guy is competent as a ER doctor in a level 1 trauma center" and he took that to the next place and the next place and so on. I always thought that seemed like an efficient system for producing docs, but it is far outside my expertise so perhaps the current system is better.
His big gripe with the path of Emergency Medicine in America was that yes, pay was increasing, but that the Doctor's role had been completely changed from sort of the quarterback of a group of nurses and midlevels to an internal consultant who PAs and NPs would bring in to provide expertise on "their" patients. In so many words: they were being paid more but the internal mystique and respect given to the ER doctor in the ward had evaporated as mid-levels and hospital administration completely removed doctors from almost all leadership roles in the hospital. I wonder if the same things are occurring in Ireland.Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Aidan Kehoe
My ER doc at UCLA a dozen years ago was like what you’d expect at UCLA in 1970: a young Jewish guy with a lot on the ball. I looked him up and he’d gone to an osteopathy school.
Interesting because my impression was back then the DOs were kind of a gentilist movement and would in-kind discriminate against the Tribe. So your Doc must have been exceptional to overcome that.
The whole outlook or philosophy seems counter-judaic and very Greek "Heal Thyself" type of perspective where the physician is there to help the patient heal himself and isn't trying to obviate human resilience by cutting or dosing for every problem. Would be nice if we could be more discrete about the different philosophies and their underpinnings because they both have merit, but we don't live in a society that can hold two contradictory ideas in their mind simultaneously.
As far as I recollect, he didn't even do a residency when he graduated in the early 1970s. He just showed up at the Detroit ER after graduation and got his hands dirty working under the guys there who were pretty used to treating acute lead poisoning. I guess it was an ersatz residency but nothing formal, he just worked the floor there for two years and the chief of medicine of the hospital wrote him a letter saying "this guy is competent as a ER doctor in a level 1 trauma center" and he took that to the next place and the next place and so on. I always thought that seemed like an efficient system for producing docs, but it is far outside my expertise so perhaps the current system is better.
His big gripe with the path of Emergency Medicine in America was that yes, pay was increasing, but that the Doctor's role had been completely changed from sort of the quarterback of a group of nurses and midlevels to an internal consultant who PAs and NPs would bring in to provide expertise on "their" patients. In so many words: they were being paid more but the internal mystique and respect given to the ER doctor in the ward had evaporated as mid-levels and hospital administration completely removed doctors from almost all leadership roles in the hospital. I wonder if the same things are occurring in Ireland.Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Aidan Kehoe
So many things are so different here compared to the US, I could spend the rest of the evening going into detail. Two examples:— The 93% adult vaccination rate in the Republic of Ireland reflects a real trust in western medicine in the country that, almost certainly, makes my day go easier that it would if I were working in many parts of the US. — A huge proportion of native, locally-qualified doctors emigrate to New Zealand or Australia after their intern year, shortly after medical school. That would be very, very unusual in the US.
That’s interesting. About the only vaguely JQ-woke thing I ever heard my Dad say in his life was that as a gentile rural white kid he felt he had zero chance of admittance into an MD program because of aggressive in-group nepotism by Jewish admission boards into those programs, even as far back as the 1970s, and the religion/race of the premeds picked up for MD programs backed that, regardless of performance.
I wonder too if there might be a quality loss in DOs now that the stigma is gone, like you see with the decreasing performance of immigrant families over generations in some cases. Those first DOs in mainstream medicine like your doc had something to prove, and I imagine as a group they outperformed due to that inferiority complex. A lot of good has has done for the world by men and women who felt they had something to prove.
ER acts as kind of a filter for patients I guess because they legally can’t turn anyone away regardless of their ability to pay. Which to me makes them immediately at the top of the pile in terms of medical ethics. But it also means they deal with a much duskier patient pool than most doctors, and from my friend and dad, they prefer that- it’s like the healthy view of the whole CRT/DIE deal that we used to call Noblesse Oblige. Black and brown patients prefer a white or yellow doctor, racism be damned.
Another problem with DOs now is their whole shtick is holistic medicine and a strong bias against invasive surgery and especially against open ended Rxs. When you set yourself against the two biggest profit drivers in your industry for ethical reasons, you have to have strong convictions to sail into those headwinds. I think we need that kind of mindset now more than ever, and I hope the new DOs have the same grit as the first guys through the wall.
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Interesting because my impression was back then the DOs were kind of a gentilist movement and would in-kind discriminate against the Tribe. So your Doc must have been exceptional to overcome that.
The whole outlook or philosophy seems counter-judaic and very Greek “Heal Thyself” type of perspective where the physician is there to help the patient heal himself and isn’t trying to obviate human resilience by cutting or dosing for every problem. Would be nice if we could be more discrete about the different philosophies and their underpinnings because they both have merit, but we don’t live in a society that can hold two contradictory ideas in their mind simultaneously.
All them doctors to take care of our Intelligent Design.
Ha ha ha ha. Humans are a hot mess. Our Intelligent Designer must hate our guts.
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/surgical-plates-screws-operation-traumatology-surgical-plates-screws-operation-traumatology-case-129813914.jpg
The whole business is not unlike carpentry.Replies: @Cortes
Thanks.
Having smashed a shoulder (tripping on a loose shoelace – oh! was that sore!) and enduring three ops, I know similar hardware.
The Aussie physio described the train of five carts carrying various tools for the hip replacement as like an industrial process, all delivering tools just-in-time to the surgeon.
Perhaps not so different. It may be a similar trend that inspired Dad to strongly persuad me to be a military man (and ultimately oilman) instead of a 4th generation physician, which led to a life of interesting variety and debauched dissipation but little value to my community. Perhaps he was wrong or more likely he knew my temperament better than I do still.
And for emigration my understanding is that Eire is the most expedient academy for physicians, which I applaud. I know I would consider Ireland if I ever tried to redeem myself and enter the family business.
I used to work at The Hospital for Joint Diseases, as the head assistant to the Chief of Orthopedic Surgery there. (well there’s really no other kind of surgery there, except orthopedic surgery.) He was a good guy, and in general the staff were nice folks.
All the same, I have a few rather unusual and sort of un-cooked opinions about the whole scene of orthopedic surgery. Maybe some other time I’ll share a few.
The reason why average salaries for doctors are significantly higher than that of other skilled laborers is due to government interference,
You’re very adept at persuading people you’re a fanatic.
Is it possible that ‘I’m behind on bills’ is the cover story in front of ‘saves me from spending more time with my wife and children’?
You're very adept at persuading people you're a fanatic.Replies: @JMcG
Inasmuch as the government has ceded its licensing power to the AMA, there’s something to what he says. Artificially limiting the supply of physicians certainly drives their wages up. I’m agnostic as to whether that is a good thing or bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GXPd0fnpKwReplies: @Achmed E. Newman
Good guess, Art, cause I didn’t mention it, but he has no (legal) wife and no children.
Thanks for the Sam Kinison video! LOL!
I hope these operations put you in better shape, Brutusale.Replies: @Brutusale
Yeah, well, the knee was the most damaged part, as the original injury happened in high school 45 years ago, so it had to be done first. The hip was much more painful, and the doc gave me two cortisone injections in my hip during the knee surgery. He said that the hip would be fairly pain-free for 6-8 months, but in reality I was pain-free until the second physical therapy appointment.
Because of my excellent outcome on the knee, he said we could do the hip right away instead of waiting the usual 6 months, much to my gratification. Then last week his office called to tell me that our illustrious governor, Sorry Charlie Baker, declared a moratorium on “elective” surgeries! I want the bastard to spend ONE day experiencing the pain that I have right now.
So here I am, waiting.
I’d also like to take the opportunity to thanks all of those driven clean out of their minds by the WuFlu. With every twinge of pain I feel I owe a debt of gratitude to those sheep who acquiesced to each and every lunatic mandate. It must be making me stronger!
The AMA isn’t in charge of physician licensure. That would be state medical boards and the NBME (National Board of Medical Examiners.)
Too funny-
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10326079/Trevor-Noah-sues-New-York-doctor-hospital-botched-surgery-underwent-year.html