The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
Slate: Beethoven Has a First Name
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

The cultural commissars are increasingly worried that the upcoming 250th birthday of Beethoven in December might distract from celebrating all things black. Thus from Slate:

Beethoven Has a First Name
It’s time to “fullname” all composers in classical music.
By CHRIS WHITE
OCT 24, 20206:00 AM

There will be a time when we’ll go to concerts again. We will buy our tickets, shuffle shoulder to shoulder down the aisle, and find our seats. The lights will dim, and the conductor will walk onto the stage to introduce the program. They might talk about Beethoven, Schumann, and Bartók. And they might talk about Alma Mahler, Florence Price, Henry Burleigh, and Caroline Shaw. Many of us, used to the conventions of classical performance, will hardly notice the difference: “traditional” white male composers being introduced with only surnames, full names for everyone else, especially women and composers of color.

The habitual, two-tiered way we talk about classical composers is ubiquitous. For instance, coverage of an early October livestream by the Louisville Orchestra praised the ensemble’s performance of a “Beethoven” symphony, and the debut of a composition memorializing Breonna Taylor by “Davóne Tines” and “Igee Dieudonné.”

It’s almost as if more people have heard of Beethoven than of Davone Tines or Igee Dieudonne (who is a white guy). And it’s almost as if the Eroica Symphony is “better” than this 3 minute composition by Davóne Tines and Igee Dieudonné.

If you’re a music teacher who’s been demonstrating some concept with a piece by Ludwig van Beethoven or Wolfgang Mozart, these resources will guide you to an alternative piece of music by, say, Elizabeth Cotten (the guitarist responsible for the “Cotten picking” performance style).

Similar dynamics are increasingly evident within other musical fields, including music performance. The Metropolitan Opera, upon canceling its 2020–21 season, also announced that it would begin its next season with Terence Blanchard’s Fire Shut Up in My Bones, the first opera by a Black composer to appear on the Met’s stage.

Terence Blanchard’s depressing movie scores have pretty much destroyed Spike Lee’s career since he fired his dad, who scored Lee’s first few movies back when everybody thought he was going to turn into somebody good.

Encouraging as it is, this trend is butting headlong into the Western European musical canon. For a lot of intersecting reasons, music critics, academics, consumers, and performers in the mid-19th through early 20th centuries thought about music history as the story of a few great men producing great works of art. (Of course, this tactic is very common in how we tell our histories in many domains.) Tied up in the respect and ubiquity afforded to these men is the mononym, or a single word sufficing for a person’s whole name. These canonized demigods became so ensconced in elite musical society’s collective consciousness that only one word was needed to evoke their awesome specter. Mouthfuls of full names became truncated to terse sets of universally recognized syllables: Mozart. Beethoven. Bach.

If you want to argue that referring to the classical giants like Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach by one name is unfair, you ought to start with the Other Bachs, Johann Sebastian’s sons. J.S. Bach, although influential upon his peers such as Mozart and Beethoven, fell out of public popularity for almost 80 years following his death in 1750, during which some of his sons were more famous composers. Finally, in 1829, the 20-year-old Felix Mendelssohn arranged and conducted a famous performance of the St. Matthew’s Passion in Berlin, and the elder Bach has been a huge figure ever since.

On the one hand, then, initiatives toward diversity and inclusion are placing new names on concert programs, syllabi, and research papers, names that might not have been there 10 or 20 years ago—or even last year. But these names are appearing next to those that have been drilled deep into our brains by the forces of the inherited canon. This collision between increasing diversity and the mononyms of music history has created a hierarchical system that, whether or not you find it useful, can now only be seen as outdated and harmful.

As we usher wider arrays of composers into our concerts and classrooms, this dual approach only exacerbates the exclusionary practices that suppressed nonwhite and nonmale composers in the first place. When we say, “Tonight, you’ll be hearing symphonies by Brahms and Edmond Dédé,” we’re linguistically treating the former as being on a different plane than the latter, a difference originally created by centuries of systematic prejudice, exclusion, sexism, and racism. (Dédé was a freeborn Creole composer whose music packed concert halls in Europe and America in the mid-19th century.)

Edmond Dede was a black guy from New Orleans who enjoyed a reasonable career on the conducting side in France in the late 19th Century, although it’s misleading to say he packed concert halls as a composer. It’s more like every few decades somebody in New Orleans would put on a concert of his pieces as a show of civic pride by the creole of color community.

More to the point, interest in Dede at present seems negligible. I can’t find a Youtube video about him or of his music with even 2,000 views. There are countless 19th composers who were fine talents but who are forgotten today.

In contrast, the most popular Brahms video on Youtube has 7 million views.

I would imagine Dede felt Brahms was a much better composer than him.

The hierarchy of classical music composers isn’t actually a conspiracy, it’s based on who the greats think was great. As I wrote in my 2003 review of Charles Murray’s Human Accomplishment:

The best single confirmation of Beethoven’s greatness might be Brahms’s explanation of why he spent decades fussing before finally unveiling his First Symphony: “You have no idea how it feels for someone like me to hear behind him the tramp of a giant like Beethoven.”

Back to Slate:

Going forward, we need to “fullname” all composers when we write, talk, and teach about music. If mononyms linguistically place composers in a canonical pantheon, fullnaming never places them there to begin with. When we say, “Tonight, you’ll be hearing symphonies by Johannes Brahms and Edmond Dédé,” we’re linguistically treating both composers as being equally worthy of attention. And while fullnaming might seem like a small act in the face of centuries of harm and injustice, by adopting a stance of referential egalitarianism, fullnaming at least does no more harm. …

But by using everyone’s full names, we can focus more on their music rather than on the past cultural practices that elevated straight white men at the expense of everyone else.

Musicians, academics, and teachers have a lot of work ahead to confront the racist and sexist history of classical music. Fullnaming composers, especially those who have been elevated to mononymic status by this complicated history, will challenge us to at the very least afford the same respect to all of the individuals whose music we talk and write about. When we do return to the concert halls, let’s return to concerts that play Ludwig Beethoven alongside Florence Price, and Edmond Dédé alongside Johannes Brahms.

Sorry, but Beethoven’s full name isn’t “Ludwig Beethoven,” it’s Ludwig van Beethoven:

Amusingly, saying the long names of the Big Three — Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Johann Sebastian Bach, and Ludwig van Beethoven — just makes them sound even more awesome than saying only their last names.

I’m looking forward to Professor Chris White’s essay about how referring to “Marx,” “Foucault” and “Derrida” is racist and sexist, especially considering how unjust that is to “Adam Smith.”

 
Hide 349 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. Can’t we just trigger the woke to jump out of windows like in “A Clockwork Orange?” So when they hear classical western music they’ll jump just to escape the whiteness.

    • Replies: @International Jew
    @Kronos

    I would have jumped to escape that girly decor.

    Replies: @SFG

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Kronos

    Confirming my opinion: novels are invariably better than movies. In the novel, I vaguely remember this scene as great; here, it is hilarious.

    And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors.

    The same goes for Straw Dogs, 2001 Odyssey, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Little Big Man, ..

    On the other hand, Spielberg's movie is better than Benchley's novel, while other Spielberg's film is as bad as Walker's (Alice?) novel.

    Replies: @Lace, @SunBakedSuburb, @Sollipsist, @Kronos, @dfordoom, @Nicholas Stix

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Kronos

    Clockwork Orange (1971) is Kubrick's weakest film. By 1970, 2001 was not proving to be the commercial or critical hit K. anticipated; he looked for a snapback, something he could film cheap and quick. Something to capitalize on the youth-in-revolt culture of the period. Because it is Kubrick it is still interesting and better than anything Tinseltown has produced in the last 12 months (low standard). Malcolm McDowell's performance is the best thing about it.

    Replies: @MEH 0910

  2. Never heard of Prince, Rihanna, Beyonce, Usher, Tupac, Nelly,Seal, Ludacris, etc

    • Thanks: Buffalo Joe, Sollipsist
    • Replies: @Gary in Gramercy
    @HammerJack

    You forgot "Diddy," the megalomaniac formerly known as P.Diddy, formerly known as Puff Daddy, formerly known as Sean Combs.

    Replies: @HammerJack

    , @reactionry
    @HammerJack

    Was slow to post this and note that you later mentioned Aubrey* "DRAKE" Graham. As Tiny Duck (and Whiskey) would surely agree, that rapper has been the object of the affections of scads of white women. T.D.(who's probably "on the spectrum") would also likely feel some kinship with the awesomely named Ludwig Von Drake - a polymath and composer of the "The Spectrum Song."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhD-DaT456w
    The above suggests that the (feathered) Drake, like Vladimir Nabokov, might have experienced synesthesia.


    * Aubrey - "Elf Ruler"**- initially a boys' name, then almost exclusively for girls*** - though now sometimes "gender neutral." A glance at the Canadian's facial hair suggests that "Beardsley" might be a swell nickname.
    ** Also see Erlkönig -Franz Schubert & GOETHE -white kid beguiled away by forces of darkness (vague memories here of my old man reciting it for a bedtime story) https://www.google.com/search?ei=-q-WX5y0Ase7tQbWk6-YDg&q=Erlkonig&oq=Erlkonig&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIICC4QyQMQkwIyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAA6DggAEOoCELQCEJoBEOUCOgoILhDJAxBDEJMCOgQILhBDOggIABCxAxCDAToFCAAQsQM6BQgAEJECOgUILhCRAjoECAAQQzoICC4QxwEQrwE6CAguELEDEIMBOggILhDHARCjAjoICC4QkQIQkwI6EAguELEDEIMBEMkDEAoQkwI6CggAELEDEIMBEAo6BAgAEAo6BAguEAo6CgguEMcBEK8BEAo6BwguEEMQkwI6CgguELEDEIMBEEM6BQguELEDOg4ILhCxAxDJAxCRAhCTAjoOCC4QsQMQgwEQyQMQkwJQ0BRYmFVgsVpoBnAAeACAAWeIAeQIkgEEMTEuMpgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXqwAQbAAQE&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwicmcT1kNLsAhXHXc0KHdbJC-MQ4dUDCA0&uact=5
    *** https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=XKdaBlpQXkI&list=RDAMVMXKdaBlpQXkI

    , @M_Young
    @HammerJack

    And in another field, Pele, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho...

  3. It’ll be hard work commentating on the Brazilian football team in future.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @Henry's Cat


    It’ll be hard work commentating on the Brazilian football team in future.
     
    Fred will be pissed, the first name's not the problem. Try getting "Frederico Rodrigues de Paula Santos " on the back of the shirt.

    https://cdn.swisscows.ch//https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0188/0122/products/IMG_20190130_120513_grande.jpg?v=1571438558

    Replies: @Rob McX, @M_Young

  4. The Strauss guys need some serious clarification. There’s the waltz guys, pere, fils, and fils-frere, and fils was more talented than pere. And then there’s the 2001 Nazi guy, unrelated.

    • Replies: @guest
    @Anon

    The Two Johanns, yes. Odds are one would be referring to the Younger, a.k.a. the "Waltz King." But one must be doubly sure.

    Strauss the Younger also wrote opera, in which realm Richard Strauss was famous. So you can't just say "the Opera Strauss."

    Replies: @Anon, @Bardon Kaldian

  5. No. The one name wonders don’t affect contemporary composers negatively. I suspect there are more than a few with secret dreams of being referred to by just their last names someday. Why remove that hope?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @notsaying

    Philip Glass is componsing away like crazy in his old age. I presume he hopes someday after his death to be known to the public as Glass.

    Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @SFG, @MEH 0910, @Lace, @guest

    , @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    @notsaying

    "I suspect there are more than a few with secret dreams of being referred to by just their last names someday. Why remove that hope?"

    Shostakovich died 1975. He is the last composer I can think of commonly referred to by last name alone. Edit: aww, damn, forgot about Copland and Bernstein.

    Nobody says "Williams" whilst referring to the great film composer John Williams. Even fanciers of minimalist composer Glass call him Philip Glass. Same with John Adams or Steve Reich.

    After Shosty (and Copland and Bernie), can you think of another classical cat called by last name alone? I'd nominate Kapustin whose eight concert etudes are frequently performed and recorded these days.

    Replies: @guest

  6. It’s better than the nearly universal online practice of referring to prominent women solely by their first names. For instance, Kamala Harris no longer has a last name, for all intents and purposes. No one wins in this practice: it dehumanizes men, who are last named, and infantilizes women.

    • Agree: jim jones, Dissident
    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @prosa123

    If the first name is out, does Joe's Ho have to become Biden's Ho?

    , @gent
    @prosa123

    It is notable the opposite happened with Hillary Clinton. While she went by Hillary in her 2008 attempt, by 2016 she had integrated her husband's identity fully and was simply "Clinton." The same applies to Thatcher and Merkel.

    Replies: @Dissident

  7. Making the greats less white with names accessible to Blacks.

    L’ud vanqan Baywatch

    WolfDX My Man Mozert

    The Cat Men and Son

  8. Steve, can you review the new Borat movie? It just came out on Amazon Prime. Prime is running a free 30 day trial if you don’t have it.

    • Disagree: International Jew, Polistra
    • Replies: @ic1000
    @Anonymous

    Steve, your review of Sacha’s original movie also works for the current release. Not much new.

    , @SFG
    @Anonymous

    He'd have to give him money.

    SBC probably gets a few cents if that from a single viewing, so it's not a huge thing.

    , @Johnny Smoggins
    @Anonymous

    I can have a go at a quick review of the new Borat movie;

    A childish, annoying, stupid, unfunny Jew makes fun of White people and mocks their culture for an hour and a half.

    Save your money and make a cash donation to the ADL instead.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @J.Ross
    @Anonymous

    Irrelevance is his best possible fate; the best response was already written by George Saunders.
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/12/04/borat-the-memo

    Replies: @International Jew

    , @ThreeCranes
    @Anonymous

    I made it through about 15 minutes of it.

  9. Who writes this things? Who reads this things?
    Such dumb articles might as well be written and read by robots.
    They are pointless and a waste of time.
    I have no idea how Slate makes any money, if it does.

    • Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account
    @Dumbo


    Who reads this things?
     
    Pretty much just Steve Sailer
    , @John Achterhof
    @Dumbo

    It's a niche market of writing among those nursing a socialistic hard-on for those that appear before them - like the Covington boy - smugly nestled in mainstream society. At least he is not summoning some reason for toppling Beethoven's statue.

    , @El Dato
    @Dumbo

    Woke Kampf Test:

    We have a pair of Antagonistic Neural Networks:

    One network writes the article.

    The other network, previously house-trained on wokery of all kinds and well-informed about all aspects concerning intersectionality, triangulation, critical race theory, project 1619 and the superiority of Black Egyptians/Black Greeks/Black Slavs/Black Celts, reads the result. It then either accepts or rejects the submission.

    If the article is rejected, it goes back be amended by network #1.

    If the article is accepted, it gets published in Slate.

    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Dumbo


    Who writes this things? Who reads this things?
    Such dumb articles might as well be written and read by robots.
    They are pointless and a waste of time.
    I have no idea how Slate makes any money, if it does.
     
    If your worldview has been significantly influenced by neoliberal woke ideology - probably by way of post-secondary education in our nation's Colleges and Universities - these pieces offer minor daily reinforcements of your worldview. I imagine that it's the analog of Mexican peasants perceiving images of Jesus or Mary in the peculiar shading of a tortilla.

    It's also an act of leftist aggression against a field of endeavor largely previously immune from woke insanity due to the general disinterest of blacks, Hispanics, and the rest in Classical Music. The message is that there is no place to which to escape, and nothing will be permitted to be enjoyed for its own sake.
  10. Louisville Orchestra praised the ensemble’s performance of a “Beethoven” symphony, and the debut of a composition memorializing Breonna Taylor by “Davóne Tines” and “Igee Dieudonné.”

    It wouldn’t be so bad if they put the crap after intermission, but they never do.

    • Agree: Polistra
    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @JMcG
    @International Jew

    It’s like bundling cable channels. You are forced to pay for BET if you want to watch ESPN. I find it disappointing that many of the voices calling for an end to funding NPR do effectively the same thing in their private lives.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    , @vinteuil
    @International Jew


    It wouldn’t be so bad if they put the crap after intermission, but they never do.
     
    So true. First, the sugar pill - e.g., an overture by Rossini. Then, before intermission, the medicine.

    In the good old days, that would be, say, Three, or Five, or Six Pieces for Orchestra by Berg, or Schoenberg, or Webern. Annoying, but fairly short.

    These days, you may have to snooze through a good half an hour of some black or female nonentity.

    Then the intermission, & then the Beethoven or Brahms or Tchaikovsky Concerto or Symphony that everybody's heard a million times before.

    Sigh.

  11. Tied up in the respect and ubiquity afforded to these women is the mononym, or a single word sufficing for a person’s whole name. These canonized demigoddesses became so ensconced in elite musical society’s collective consciousness that only one word was needed to evoke their awesome specter. Mouthfuls of full names became truncated to terse sets of universally recognized syllables: Cher. Madonna. Beyoncé.

    Musicians, academics, and disc jockeys have a lot of work ahead to confront the racist and sexist history of popular music. Fullnaming composers, especially those who have been elevated to mononymic status by this complicated history, will challenge us to at the very least afford the same respect to all of the individuals whose music we talk and write about.

  12. One could distinguish between artists who are great with the public and artists who are great with other artists. For instance, James Joyce wrote rather uninteresting books anout rather uninteresting people (“Dubliners” are the most interesting), but he was the first with a lot of new technical tricks, which later artists copied for their own and more interesting subjects. So he is highly esteemed by insiders, and insofar rightly.

  13. J.S. Bach was misnamed, according to Beethoven. “Nicht Bach, sondern Meer” (not a Brook, but a Sea”) was the verdict on “the Father/Abraham of Harmony.”

    • Agree: M_Young
  14. That piece reeks of desperation – the author appears to be a straight gentile white male trying to stay alive in the most liberal part of academia. He is only an assistant professor so he is not tenured yet and he might never get that tenure because of his profile. It looks like he has already failed to get a tenure at least once, so yeah, if he fails at U. Mass. he is basically unemployable.

    That whole situation reminded me of this classic, tenure-related horror movie scene

    • Replies: @Charles St. Charles
    @Black-hole creator


    That piece reeks of desperation – the author appears to be a straight gentile white male trying to stay alive in the most liberal part of academia. He is only an assistant professor so he is not tenured yet and he might never get that tenure because of his profile. It looks like he has already failed to get a tenure at least once, so yeah, if he fails at U. Mass. he is basically unemployable.
     
    You’re on to something here. I recently applied for a university fine arts teaching position. In nearly four decades of working and applying for teaching positions, this is the first application requiring a separate document - in addition to a cover letter and CV - describing my past, present, and future efforts to promote diversity and inclusion. I’m a White guy, so my chances are already slim for this gig.

    I think Chris, in writing and getting this stupid article published, is just adding ally points to his future tenure packet. White guys in academia are frantically trying to get a woke Passover sign painted above their office doors. Especially those whose employment is “precarious”, as they say.
    , @Close Reader
    @Black-hole creator

    No, actually. As can be seen from this other piece by him, the author is as gay as can be: https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/08/can-music-be-gay-listening-to-soundscapes-in-provincetown.html?via=recirc_recent

    Replies: @Rob McX, @Black-hole creator

  15. Beethoven wasn’t born until 1770, 20 years after J.S. Bach died. How were they “peers”? Beethoven also died in 1827, before you allege Mendelssohn to have repopularized Bach.

    Your rush to make your hot, contrarian takes often makes you look like a moron. Focus on quality instead of smartass “comedy” and quantity.

    • Replies: @International Jew
    @AndrewR

    Well, that wasn't very nice.

    But it's true that Bach influenced Beethoven. It's enough to listen to the fugal movements of Beethoven's late sonatas.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Lace

    , @J.Ross
    @AndrewR

    Because a peer is an equal (especially in art, where you want to be able to make comparisons across generations) and not necessarily a concurrent. They're in the same ballpark as far as how good they are. One of the stock criticisms of medieval art was that it didn't offer peers to classical and renaissance artists, which it wouldn't be able to anyhow if the timing was part of it.

    , @Lace
    @AndrewR

    I think he knew that, don't be so fucking pedantic. Blog writing does not have to be that formal.

    , @Richard S
    @AndrewR


    a person of the same age, status, or ability as another specified person.
    "he has incurred much criticism from his academic peers"
     
    Please, get a fresher shtick than just angry misunderstanding, it has become tedious.
    , @vinteuil
    @AndrewR

    AndrewR, the eclipse of J.S. Bach's reputation for a couple of generations after his death is a completely uncontroversial historical fact, as is the role of Mendelssohn in reviving the interest of the general public in his works.

    You're the one making a fool of himself, here.

    Replies: @Lace

    , @Alfa158
    @AndrewR

    Merriam Webster:
    “ Definition of peer (Entry 1 of 3)
    1 : one that is of equal standing with another : EQUAL”
    Tell us again who’s the moron here.
    You’re too lazy to even look up the definition of a word before you criticize the usage.

  16. So, will Sting (aka Gordon Sumner) next be cancelled? How about The Edge (David Evans)?

  17. @Henry's Cat
    It'll be hard work commentating on the Brazilian football team in future.

    Replies: @Bill Jones

    It’ll be hard work commentating on the Brazilian football team in future.

    Fred will be pissed, the first name’s not the problem. Try getting “Frederico Rodrigues de Paula Santos ” on the back of the shirt.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @Bill Jones

    He'll have to switch to sumo wrestling if he wants to fit his full name on his shirt.

    , @M_Young
    @Bill Jones

    My favorite is 'Socrates' from the great 70s, Pele years.

    BTW Rin tin tin is way more famous than either Socrates, so three names are better than one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVtt6Cd1s94&feature=emb_logo

  18. @Kronos
    Can’t we just trigger the woke to jump out of windows like in “A Clockwork Orange?” So when they hear classical western music they’ll jump just to escape the whiteness.

    https://youtu.be/PDkzbIIKDJU

    Replies: @International Jew, @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    I would have jumped to escape that girly decor.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @International Jew

    He's not gay, he's British. Had a zheena Alex found cute enough to go for the old in-out, in-out with, though being Alex he didn't actually ask first.

    Replies: @MEH 0910

  19. @prosa123
    It's better than the nearly universal online practice of referring to prominent women solely by their first names. For instance, Kamala Harris no longer has a last name, for all intents and purposes. No one wins in this practice: it dehumanizes men, who are last named, and infantilizes women.

    Replies: @Bill Jones, @gent

    If the first name is out, does Joe’s Ho have to become Biden’s Ho?

  20. “we can focus more on their music”. That isn’t going to end well for the people who currently aren’t “fullnamed”.

    • Replies: @Lace
    @Redneck farmer

    Especially since it will keep this type from 'focussing on the music', which is not their interest at all. Someone down the thread linked to this Chris White's story on Provincetown 'gay music' with how he could hear the 'gay sound' more as the str8 tourists left and they approached such phenomena as 'Tea Dance' and 'After Tea Dance' and 'campy drag-queen singers' who aren't so 'highbrow' (but 'that's fine', of course).

    What an asshole he must be. He wants to be able to 'focus on what's gay in the dance music of Provincetown'--but because it is gay. He doesn't want to focus on the music of Beethoven unless he is set aside as 'sounding like a straight white male'.

    In other words, he doesn't want to 'focus on the music' of anyone, even his 'my type of gay' (which he names some--and I don't think Anderson Cooper is quite of the same species, frankly.) He DOES only want to focus on where whatever music comes from socio-politically liberal or NOT.

    He can't HEAR. Just feels cute 'n' cuddly around 'music that sounds gay'. That wouldn't include music by Tchaikowsky, which doesn't sound gay or straight, but rather masterful, or Ravel, which is glamorous but doesn't 'sound gay', or even Ned Rorem, who at 94, always sounded sort of gay to me, but more whiny--I like one of the sonatas and used to play it--but 'Mister' White is not talking about even the Rorem kind of 'gay sound'.

    God, that article about Provincetown was a chore, but explains everything stupid about the excerpts Steve quoted. Yeah, more like a 'Michael Musto' kind of gay, he's so smarmy it's unbearable. And somebody like that has the right to talk about Beethoven and then leave out the 'van' as well?

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix

  21. “Terence Blanchard’s depressing movie scores have pretty much destroyed Spike Lee’s career since he fired his dad”

    Wasn’t his career negatively affected by something else? Something he said?

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Both can be true!

  22. Hello, journalist-type person! Want to take a shot at King Beethoven but don’t want to be caught saying “Beethoven sucks because white” and/or “Beethoven was awesomely black?” Follow these steps:

    1. Reverse cause-and-effect by pretending famous compositional names are famous because their surnames are famous.

    2. ???

    3. Profit!

    • Agree: Abe
  23. @Anon
    The Strauss guys need some serious clarification. There's the waltz guys, pere, fils, and fils-frere, and fils was more talented than pere. And then there's the 2001 Nazi guy, unrelated.

    Replies: @guest

    The Two Johanns, yes. Odds are one would be referring to the Younger, a.k.a. the “Waltz King.” But one must be doubly sure.

    Strauss the Younger also wrote opera, in which realm Richard Strauss was famous. So you can’t just say “the Opera Strauss.”

    • Replies: @Anon
    @guest

    Johann Strauss II had two brothers who composed but never made a splash. So it was a Bach-like family.

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @guest

    When I think of it- Kubrick chose the only valuable part of "Zarathustra". Most of the rest is insufferable.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan, @Mr. Anon

  24. @prosa123
    It's better than the nearly universal online practice of referring to prominent women solely by their first names. For instance, Kamala Harris no longer has a last name, for all intents and purposes. No one wins in this practice: it dehumanizes men, who are last named, and infantilizes women.

    Replies: @Bill Jones, @gent

    It is notable the opposite happened with Hillary Clinton. While she went by Hillary in her 2008 attempt, by 2016 she had integrated her husband’s identity fully and was simply “Clinton.” The same applies to Thatcher and Merkel.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @gent


    It is notable the opposite happened with Hillary Clinton. While she went by Hillary in her 2008 attempt, by 2016 she had integrated her husband’s identity fully and was simply “Clinton.”
     
    Remember when it was Hillary Rodham-Clinton? I always wondered why the former First Lady dropped the hyphenation, and how, given how strongly the trend has been in the opposite direction, she got away with it as easily as she seems to have done.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Reg Cæsar

  25. Is such an article the counterpart of ideological bullshit that had to be regularly generated by researchers on the other side of the iron curtain?

    Musicians, academics, and teachers have a lot of work ahead to confront the racist and sexist history of classical music.

    What kind of work is that and how does it help “confronting history” and what does that even mean?

    Slate says:

    Chris White is an assistant professor of music theory at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, where he teaches and researches the ways we form musical expectations, how music is and is not a language, and how we can apply big data techniques to music analysis. He is co-writing “Murder Hornets: A New Musical for 2020”, a fundraiser for musicians whose livelihoods have been affected by the pandemic.

    Wouldn’t it have been better to call it “masks blowing in the wind” than “murder hornets” then?

    At UMass:

    Christopher White recently published several articles including “Influences of Chord Change on Metric Accent” in Psychomusicology, Autocorrelation of Pitch-Event Vectors in Meter Finding in Mathematics and Computation in Music (CITE), and “Meter’s Influence on Theoretical and Corpus-Derived Harmonic Grammars” in Indiana Theory Review. He also recently presented at Mathematics and Computation in Music, Society for Music Perception and Cognition, and Wellesley’s Music Lecture Series. Chris is currently Chair of the Society for Music Theory’s Music Informatics Group, Secretary of the New England Conference of Music Theorists, and a Civic Engagement and Service-Learning Faculty Fellow at UMass Amherst.

    “IT” and “Big data” is powered by theory and tools invented by white and (((white))) men.

    Even eugenicists.

    Is it really for you, Chris?

  26. We all know the future is beatdowns to the tune of Ludwig Van.

    • Agree: Polistra
    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Ghost of Bull Moose


    We all know the future is beatdowns to the tune of Ludwig Van.
     
    I think the future is being strapped down with your eyes pinned opened.

    I just don't know whether it's going to be aversion therapy with endless inescapable scenes of pleasant middle class heterosexual family life accompanied by Beethoven's 9th.

    or

    just a steady diet of diversity "education", featuring the middle passage, slavery, red-lining, Emmett Till and of course the Holocaust, followed by lectures on structural racism and white fragility ... followed by homosexual love scenes and miscegenation porn.

    There are still surprises left in this world.

    Replies: @SFG

  27. “they might talk about Alma Mahler, Florence Price, Henry Burleigh, and Caroline Shaw.”

    They might, but no one cares. Or rather not enough to keep the lights on.

    “especially women and composers of color”

    Because their music isn’t as good. Unless your concert hall is playing jazz or pop. In which genres famous women and Persons of Color often go by singular names.

    “thought about music history…this tactic is very common”

    Thinking is a tactic? Or thinking a certain way. A tactic I perform upon myself? Get out of my brain, Slate.

    By the way, while one might say there is heavy correlation between fame and whether or not people need to use a full name to identify someone, it’s not an absolute. Bach is currently placed at the top of classical music’s Mount Olympus. But, as you point out, he has famous sons. It’s common for him to be identified as J.S. Bach.

    Moreover, everyone knows Beethoven and Mozart’s first names. They are unique enough that that you can identify them by their first name alone, as well. Ludwig and Wolgang, who else would they be? Which may appear to work in favor of this mad Slate writer, but if we know first and last names by themselves, we’ve probably heard full names before. If not from concert hall stages, then elsewhere.

    Finally, you’ll find an awful lot of Christian names of famous composers in the air. Commonly enough for laypeople to know them. Especially if they’re Anglicizable, so to speak, for English-speakers like myself. I hear all the time: *Richard* Wagner, *Felix* Mendelssohn, *Franz* Schubert, Freddy Chopin, etc.

    Even when the names are foreigny, they can be fun to say. I like the alliterative ones: Bela Bartok, Modest Mussgorsky, etc.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @guest

    Richard Wagner would be more famous in America today if he had had an elaborate middle name, like, say, Richard Theophilus Wagner. Being named "Richard Wagner," people get him confused with the actor who played Number Two in "Austin Powers."

    Replies: @Verymuchalive, @njguy73, @Known Fact

  28. Requiring people to say “I am going to a Ludwig von Beethoven concert tonight” in place of “I am going to a Beethoven concert tonight “is pure, unadulterated virtue-signaling. The extra three syllables have zero information content.

    • Agree: notsaying
    • Replies: @bomag
    @Peter Johnson


    The extra three syllables have zero information content.
     
    Seems to be the main point of Wokesters: if they can get you to worry, and waste your time and resources, QED.
  29. @guest
    "they might talk about Alma Mahler, Florence Price, Henry Burleigh, and Caroline Shaw."

    They might, but no one cares. Or rather not enough to keep the lights on.

    "especially women and composers of color"

    Because their music isn't as good. Unless your concert hall is playing jazz or pop. In which genres famous women and Persons of Color often go by singular names.

    "thought about music history...this tactic is very common"

    Thinking is a tactic? Or thinking a certain way. A tactic I perform upon myself? Get out of my brain, Slate.


    By the way, while one might say there is heavy correlation between fame and whether or not people need to use a full name to identify someone, it's not an absolute. Bach is currently placed at the top of classical music's Mount Olympus. But, as you point out, he has famous sons. It's common for him to be identified as J.S. Bach.

    Moreover, everyone knows Beethoven and Mozart's first names. They are unique enough that that you can identify them by their first name alone, as well. Ludwig and Wolgang, who else would they be? Which may appear to work in favor of this mad Slate writer, but if we know first and last names by themselves, we've probably heard full names before. If not from concert hall stages, then elsewhere.

    Finally, you'll find an awful lot of Christian names of famous composers in the air. Commonly enough for laypeople to know them. Especially if they're Anglicizable, so to speak, for English-speakers like myself. I hear all the time: *Richard* Wagner, *Felix* Mendelssohn, *Franz* Schubert, Freddy Chopin, etc.

    Even when the names are foreigny, they can be fun to say. I like the alliterative ones: Bela Bartok, Modest Mussgorsky, etc.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Richard Wagner would be more famous in America today if he had had an elaborate middle name, like, say, Richard Theophilus Wagner. Being named “Richard Wagner,” people get him confused with the actor who played Number Two in “Austin Powers.”

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @Steve Sailer

    I tend to think that, if Wagner were alive today, he would be rebranded as Rick Wagner for the American market. Of course, he would never actually be allowed to visit America. The ADL, SPLC et al would see to that.

    Replies: @Single malt

    , @njguy73
    @Steve Sailer

    One's pronounced "WAG-ner" and the other's pronounced "VAHG-ner."

    As no, that's not being PC, or being nitpicky. You wouldn't call hockey's "Rocket" Maurice "Richard" as in "sounds like first name of late President Nixon." It's "ri-SHARD."

    , @Known Fact
    @Steve Sailer

    But Wagner does at least benefit mightily from the pretentious foreign pronunciation of his name -- Reek-hard Vaahgner. Imagine if he was just a good ol' American Richard as in Simmons or Dreyfuss, and Wagner as in former Angels slugger Leon Wagner -- Daddy Wags! I mean, The Ring Cycle by Dick Wagner lacks a certain gravitas.

  30. @notsaying
    No. The one name wonders don't affect contemporary composers negatively. I suspect there are more than a few with secret dreams of being referred to by just their last names someday. Why remove that hope?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    Philip Glass is componsing away like crazy in his old age. I presume he hopes someday after his death to be known to the public as Glass.

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account
    @Steve Sailer

    Knock knock

    Who's there?

    Knock knock

    Who's there?

    Knock knock

    Who's there?

    Knock knock

    Who's there?

    Philip Glass

    , @SFG
    @Steve Sailer

    Hey, they play 4'33" all the time, even if he doesn't get credit.

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe, @Brás Cubas

    , @MEH 0910
    @Steve Sailer

    P. D. Q. Bach: Prelude to "Einstein on the Fritz"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uumLxMLBv-Y

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._D._Q._Bach#Music


    There is often a startling juxtaposition of styles within a single P. D. Q. Bach piece. The Prelude to Einstein on the Fritz, which alludes to Philip Glass' opera Einstein on the Beach, provides an example. The underlying music is J.S. Bach's first prelude from The Well-Tempered Clavier, but at double the normal speed, with each phrase repeated interminably in a minimalist manner that parodies Glass. On top of this mind-numbing structure is added everything from jazz phrases to snoring to heavily harmonized versions of "Three Blind Mice" to the chanting of a meaningless phrase ("Koy Hotsy-Totsy," alluding to the art film Koyaanisqatsi for which Glass wrote the score). Through all these mutilations, the piece never deviates from Bach's original harmonic structure.[2]
     
    , @Lace
    @Steve Sailer

    Sometimes already has been. Jerome Robbins did a ballet Glass Pieces, which was thoroughly embarassing, as ugly as the music. You know--metropolitan people walking past each other, always looking ahead and never looking at each other in a 'friendly way' (very 'people talking without speaking, people hearing without listening), as if big cities didn't automatically make you do that. That was trite even then, but I cannot stand Philip Glass--I don't know about now, but when it became big at first, the fans were often using Glass and Steve Reich as their 'serious music' along with their pop, as Joy Division or Blondie, still that way to a certain extent. 'Cool stuff' that is mainly easy-listening 'serious music.' When I was 20, I used to listen to Reich stoned, and thought I was the most au courant person...But I must concede that I think 'Glass' is already known by his last name, as is 'Eno', although people probably say 'Philip Glass' and 'Brian Eno' more than they do Elliott Carter or Pierre Boulez. Just looked up Eno: Full Name is Brian Peter George St John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Polistra

    , @guest
    @Steve Sailer

    Glass does a lot of movie scores, doesn't he? I assume that's his most known work amongst the general public. Movie composers don't tend to get the one-name treatment.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  31. @guest
    @Anon

    The Two Johanns, yes. Odds are one would be referring to the Younger, a.k.a. the "Waltz King." But one must be doubly sure.

    Strauss the Younger also wrote opera, in which realm Richard Strauss was famous. So you can't just say "the Opera Strauss."

    Replies: @Anon, @Bardon Kaldian

    Johann Strauss II had two brothers who composed but never made a splash. So it was a Bach-like family.

  32. @Steve Sailer
    @guest

    Richard Wagner would be more famous in America today if he had had an elaborate middle name, like, say, Richard Theophilus Wagner. Being named "Richard Wagner," people get him confused with the actor who played Number Two in "Austin Powers."

    Replies: @Verymuchalive, @njguy73, @Known Fact

    I tend to think that, if Wagner were alive today, he would be rebranded as Rick Wagner for the American market. Of course, he would never actually be allowed to visit America. The ADL, SPLC et al would see to that.

    • Replies: @Single malt
    @Verymuchalive

    Frank Zappa’s kid Ahmet wanted to be called “Rick” when he was teased about his name at school.

  33. Is there any area of human endeavour where Europeans have not wiped the floor with all comers?

    • Replies: @James Speaks
    @jim jones

    Egg rolls and soy sauce come to mind. Also Dim Sum.

    We try. To wit: Moo Goo Gai Pan and General Tso’s chicken.

    , @tr
    @jim jones

    Defect-free automobile manufacture?

    , @anonymous as usual
    @jim jones

    Naval maneuvers under sail,
    allusive lyric poetry,
    flower arranging,
    clothing of beautiful women,
    swordmaking,
    the writing of military history,
    paper making,
    balloon and kite making,
    allusive drawings in dark ink,
    non-trivial games of strategy,
    and a few others.

    Then there are the 20th century Asians like Ramanujan who excelled in Western mathematics and several 20 and 21st century classical musicians who are, at least, primus or prima inter pares among their peers.

  34. Geez, it’s been less than a week and already music academics are slavishly following the lead of Jeffrey Toobin.

    • Replies: @JerseyJeffersonian
    @Richard of Melbourne

    What, wankin' it on Zoom?

    , @duncsbaby
    @Richard of Melbourne

    Yes, when it comes to mental masturbation, there is no better example than this article.

  35. Could someone elaborate on what is Psychomusicology? Who practices it? What does it do?

    • Replies: @JerseyJeffersonian
    @Miss Laura

    It generates potential tenure track jobs in academia. Beyond that, it requires no justification. As with much of modern day academia I might, somewhat superfluously, add. In its essence, it is likely comprised of much jargon, expounded upon at length by grifting HIQIs. In common with many theses, much verbiage expended upon a vanishingly small advance of useful knowledge, today's equivalent of disputations over how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin.

    Replies: @Dissident

  36. When we say, “Tonight, you’ll be hearing symphonies by Johannes Brahms and Edmond Dédé,” we’re linguistically treating both composers as being equally worthy of attention.

    It still stuns to find that there exist people daft enough to think this gaslighting would actually work.

  37. @Steve Sailer
    @notsaying

    Philip Glass is componsing away like crazy in his old age. I presume he hopes someday after his death to be known to the public as Glass.

    Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @SFG, @MEH 0910, @Lace, @guest

    Knock knock

    Who’s there?

    Knock knock

    Who’s there?

    Knock knock

    Who’s there?

    Knock knock

    Who’s there?

    Philip Glass

    • LOL: Kolya Krassotkin
  38. Am I supposed to fullname Miles, Duke, Bird and Prez, too?

    • Replies: @Gary in Gramercy
    @TheUmpteenthGermanOnHere

    Or Bud, Sonny, Monk, Mingus or Dolphy? C'mon, man!

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @TheUmpteenthGermanOnHere

    So why is Count Basie always full named?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  39. @Dumbo
    Who writes this things? Who reads this things?
    Such dumb articles might as well be written and read by robots.
    They are pointless and a waste of time.
    I have no idea how Slate makes any money, if it does.

    Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @John Achterhof, @El Dato, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Who reads this things?

    Pretty much just Steve Sailer

  40. Classical Jazz and Jazzish: Scott Joplin is occasionally referred to as Joplin. Fats Waller and Jelly Roll Morton are usually referred to just like that. Duke Ellington and Count Basie are often called simply Ellington or Basie. Benny Goodman usually gets both names. Louis Armstrong was referred to as Louis, or Satch, or …

    Bix Beiderbecke often gets just Bix; Frankie Trumbauer was often simply “Tram”; Eddie Lang got both names. In case those mean nothing to you, here’s a sample

    Anyway, I fail to see a racial pattern.

    • Replies: @Elmer T. Jones
    @dearieme

    Bix is great. Have a CD in my car and the tunes just get better with each listen.

    Since the topic is music, I recently enjoyed a recorded book for my commute titled "Everybody's Doin' It: Sex, Music, and Dance in New York, 1840-1917" by Dale Cockrell, a history of the evolution of American popular music and dance and its relation to prostitution. Apparently NYC was one big brothel back in the 19th century. As a former Dance Sensation myself it was quite interesting to me. There is a Library of Congress short from 1903 showing a "tough dance" as described in the book. Would like to find more examples of cakewalks and ragtime. We laugh now at how quaint it seems but those folks were really cutting the rug. Scandalous, really.

    Replies: @fnn, @Dissident

  41. First order reality; the music itself as it is played and listened to.

    Second order reality; commentary on and speculation about the music as it may be altered, as it may have been intended, as the composer may have thought about it, as the orchestra and conductor may have interpreted it, as different period instruments may have played it or as the acoustics of different venues may have altered its presentation.

    Third order reality; speculation about the music from the point of view of the wider society in which it occurred, how the music is a reflection of its time, a child of its cultural milieu. Assigns the music an inclusive period label such as “Romantic” or “Classical” or “Jazz”.

    Forth order reality; speculation from a viewpoint removed about how the music as a representation of the milieu in which it occurred relates to today’s prevailing norms and customs. Considers the music as a whole unit, a hard-boiled egg. Not interested in analysis into component parts as music, but evaluates it with respect to a category that is alien to music itself, e.g. political import. The Forth-order removed from reality critic has no interest in and may be utterly ignorant of the music itself. That is not their concern. They don’t give a damn about the music and may, in light of their evaluation of it, come to the conclusion that the phenomenon of the music itself is antithetical to the aims that inhere in the moral judgements implicit in the categories they bring to bear on the issue.

    The Slate article, inasmuch as it is written entirely from the perspective of forth order reality, engages in precisely what it criticizes. It treats the music of Beethoven, Bach and the like as simple, one unit eggs. The writer doesn’t bother to engage the music on any other level. Their conclusions are therefore, lamentably, foregone; all too predictable and unenlightening. Dreary, joyless, repackaged Marxism espoused by gray Marxists; they manage to take the melody and harmony out of everything they touch.

    • Agree: Lace
  42. Beethoven’s first name was Ludwig? I thought it was Camper.

    • Replies: @Sollipsist
    @PhilK

    Currently under investigation for taking the skinheads bowling.

  43. @Anonymous
    Steve, can you review the new Borat movie? It just came out on Amazon Prime. Prime is running a free 30 day trial if you don't have it.

    Replies: @ic1000, @SFG, @Johnny Smoggins, @J.Ross, @ThreeCranes

    Steve, your review of Sacha’s original movie also works for the current release. Not much new.

  44. @Dumbo
    Who writes this things? Who reads this things?
    Such dumb articles might as well be written and read by robots.
    They are pointless and a waste of time.
    I have no idea how Slate makes any money, if it does.

    Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @John Achterhof, @El Dato, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    It’s a niche market of writing among those nursing a socialistic hard-on for those that appear before them – like the Covington boy – smugly nestled in mainstream society. At least he is not summoning some reason for toppling Beethoven’s statue.

  45. Hands up anyone who thought his first name was Rollover.

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @Henry's Cat


    Hands up anyone who thought his first name was Rollover.

     

    And tell Tchaikovsky the news
  46. Coltrane and Hendrix don’t have first names.

    Because they were actually preeminent in their fields.

  47. How about Picasso and van Gogh?

  48. @Steve Sailer
    @guest

    Richard Wagner would be more famous in America today if he had had an elaborate middle name, like, say, Richard Theophilus Wagner. Being named "Richard Wagner," people get him confused with the actor who played Number Two in "Austin Powers."

    Replies: @Verymuchalive, @njguy73, @Known Fact

    One’s pronounced “WAG-ner” and the other’s pronounced “VAHG-ner.”

    As no, that’s not being PC, or being nitpicky. You wouldn’t call hockey’s “Rocket” Maurice “Richard” as in “sounds like first name of late President Nixon.” It’s “ri-SHARD.”

  49. The Slate piece is yet another variation of the soft bigotry of low expectations. Take a mediocre minority composer, refer to him by his full name, force your contemporaries to “full name” the truly outstanding but white composers, and the music universe with ring out with thousands of performances of people who were obscure for good reasons.

  50. @AndrewR
    Beethoven wasn't born until 1770, 20 years after J.S. Bach died. How were they "peers"? Beethoven also died in 1827, before you allege Mendelssohn to have repopularized Bach.

    Your rush to make your hot, contrarian takes often makes you look like a moron. Focus on quality instead of smartass "comedy" and quantity.

    Replies: @International Jew, @J.Ross, @Lace, @Richard S, @vinteuil, @Alfa158

    Well, that wasn’t very nice.

    But it’s true that Bach influenced Beethoven. It’s enough to listen to the fugal movements of Beethoven’s late sonatas.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @International Jew

    No one denied that Bach influenced Beethoven. Bach influences people today. Does that make Bach a peer of 21st century composers?

    , @Lace
    @International Jew

    The 'Fugue' of the Hammerklavier is fantastic, but the whole piece is quite 'mighty' and magnificent. I worked on it a lot but never performed it.

  51. *But by using everyone’s full names, we can focus more on their music rather than on the past cultural practices that elevated straight white men at the expense of everyone else.*

    This is a great example of “how to say something that is 180-degrees opposite of the truth.”

  52. Okay, so Orpah Gail Winfrey (yes, Orpah! from the Bible), Madonna Louise Ciccone, Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta, Cherilyn Sarkisian.

    If we’re going to follow the J.S. Bach model, that would be OG Winfrey (that worked out!), ML Ciccone, SJA Germanotta, etc. I can’t help it if Cherilyn Sarkisian didn’t have a prestigious middle name.

  53. @Anonymous
    Steve, can you review the new Borat movie? It just came out on Amazon Prime. Prime is running a free 30 day trial if you don't have it.

    Replies: @ic1000, @SFG, @Johnny Smoggins, @J.Ross, @ThreeCranes

    He’d have to give him money.

    SBC probably gets a few cents if that from a single viewing, so it’s not a huge thing.

  54. Oh gosh, white and male composers succeeded in their white countries located in white Europe. The horrors. Absolutely we must print their entire name to remind us what white men can seriously achieve when allowed to.

  55. @Steve Sailer
    @notsaying

    Philip Glass is componsing away like crazy in his old age. I presume he hopes someday after his death to be known to the public as Glass.

    Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @SFG, @MEH 0910, @Lace, @guest

    Hey, they play 4’33” all the time, even if he doesn’t get credit.

    • LOL: Rob McX
    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
    @SFG

    “4’33” - John Cage, not Philip Glass.

    Actually, I sort of liked Glass’s soundtrack to Errol Morris’s “The Fog Of War”:

    https://youtu.be/VgA98V1Ubk8

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    , @Brás Cubas
    @SFG

    That's by John Cage. But I hear Philip Glass is doing a new orchestration.

  56. File this away as yet another example of minorities inferiority complex demanding the destruction of examples of the superiority of Western civilization and its works.

  57. @International Jew
    @Kronos

    I would have jumped to escape that girly decor.

    Replies: @SFG

    He’s not gay, he’s British. Had a zheena Alex found cute enough to go for the old in-out, in-out with, though being Alex he didn’t actually ask first.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @SFG


    Had a zheena Alex found cute enough to go for the old in-out, in-out with, though being Alex he didn’t actually ask first.
     
    Before or after the Ludovico Technique?

    Bart v. Cupcakes
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0uUF3mK7Xk

    https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IllLateIndianpalmsquirrel-size_restricted.gif

    http://aclockworkorangecollector.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-simpsons-kubrick-fied-or-kubrick-in.html
  58. “Slate: Beethoven Has a First Name”

    Yeah? My baloney has a first name.

  59. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    We all know the future is beatdowns to the tune of Ludwig Van.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    We all know the future is beatdowns to the tune of Ludwig Van.

    I think the future is being strapped down with your eyes pinned opened.

    I just don’t know whether it’s going to be aversion therapy with endless inescapable scenes of pleasant middle class heterosexual family life accompanied by Beethoven’s 9th.

    or

    just a steady diet of diversity “education”, featuring the middle passage, slavery, red-lining, Emmett Till and of course the Holocaust, followed by lectures on structural racism and white fragility … followed by homosexual love scenes and miscegenation porn.

    There are still surprises left in this world.

    • Agree: duncsbaby
    • Replies: @SFG
    @AnotherDad

    There have been lots of Hollywood movies showing how straight white middle-class life is invariably hiding abuse and repression, all with Hollywood production values and so on, so I'd say that's more effective than prying people's eyes open. More flies with honey than vinegar as they say.

    The rest is as you say.

  60. I would imagine Dede felt Brahms was a much better composer than him.

    If you complete the sentence, the correct case of the personal pronoun becomes obvious:

    Brahms was a much better composer than he [was].

    This column offers further proof that UR commenters have poor taste and knowledge of classical music, when it’s Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach all the way down, but no mention of Franz Josef Haydn, the greatest composer of them all.

    • Troll: Lace
    • Replies: @Lace
    @Sparkon

    How totally absurd. Are you fucking serious? Of course Haydn was one of the greatest, but deciding on the BIG THREE is not really my thing. But picking out ONE and saying UR commenters don't have taste in music is pretty dreary, because they hadn't mentioned Haydn yet (I do in a comment way below), and in a recent Steve thread about 'White People Have to Realize that Bach, Beethoven...etc., Were White', Haydn was mentioned all the time. As well he should, but saying he was the greatest of all as if YOU know is quite repellent--as was the pedantry, but you're obviously a troll.

    Replies: @Sparkon

    , @Hangnail Hans
    @Sparkon

    Haydn is unlistenable tripe. Only stupid people like him.

  61. I wonder why there are no black death metal bands. Since death seems to be ubiquitous in the black teen community, you’d think such dark inflected music would be popular.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @JimB

    I think that sort of thing and rap have the same appeal - an upraised middle finger.

    I have a dear cousin who is a 38 year old married father with a supervisory job (lapsed teacher). He sends out this Fakebook plea recently for some advice on finding 1970s heavy metal of interest. Some part of his head is still back in a disagreeable adolescence.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb

  62. So my question is:

    Do a single one of these, uhm, tertiary talents even measure up to John Williams?

    (BTW, I have attended a live performance of that work – the tuba player didn’t even faint at the end.)

  63. We used to have mice standing on the shoulders of giants. Now we have mice scrabbling in the dirt at the feet of giants, angry that the giants exist and oblivious to the debt they owe to them.

    • Agree: Dissident
  64. @International Jew
    @AndrewR

    Well, that wasn't very nice.

    But it's true that Bach influenced Beethoven. It's enough to listen to the fugal movements of Beethoven's late sonatas.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Lace

    No one denied that Bach influenced Beethoven. Bach influences people today. Does that make Bach a peer of 21st century composers?

  65. This article is spot on and couldn’t be more relevant for everyday life in America in 2020. Everyone in my town talks about classical music on Sunday afternoons in the fall, while we supervise the staff as they polish our Bentleys. But they always refer to the DWMs by their last names. This is why I always consult the latest critical studies to learn the proper words to use. I’m one of the more popular folks in town due to my constant judging of others’ choice of language.

  66. Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

    • Replies: @Henry's Cat
    @Buffalo Joe

    And Pol Pot and Genghis Khan.

    'Adolf Hitler.....say his name!'

    , @Known Fact
    @Buffalo Joe

    And don't forget Pol Pot. Why not just Pot?

    Replies: @nebulafox

    , @Dmon
    @Buffalo Joe

    And talk about racism - Shaka (Zulu) genocided an estimated 1 million people using nothing but edged weapons, and he doesn't even rate a mention.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Buffalo Joe


    Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

     

    Roku offers a Dictators Channel. We have it on ours. Their National Parks channel disappeared, though, and when we reinstalled it, it was a shadow of its former self. Hope the tinpots get better treatment.

    https://www.rokuguide.com/channels/dictators-channel


    Mussalini [sic]
     
    Joe, I thought you were Italian!

    Replies: @Charles St. Charles

    , @Gary in Gramercy
    @Buffalo Joe

    Mao. Just Mao.

    , @Charlotte
    @Buffalo Joe

    “Mao” just goes to show that Chinese are honorary whites!

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @Gordo
    @Buffalo Joe

    Mobuto

  67. Is the first name of The Artist Formerly Known as Prince “The Artist Formerly Known as”, and his last name is “Prince”?

  68. @Anonymous
    Steve, can you review the new Borat movie? It just came out on Amazon Prime. Prime is running a free 30 day trial if you don't have it.

    Replies: @ic1000, @SFG, @Johnny Smoggins, @J.Ross, @ThreeCranes

    I can have a go at a quick review of the new Borat movie;

    A childish, annoying, stupid, unfunny Jew makes fun of White people and mocks their culture for an hour and a half.

    Save your money and make a cash donation to the ADL instead.

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Johnny Smoggins

    That's one level and interpretation of the movie. But note that the main interpretation for most average American viewers is that Borat the character and the movies are making fun of and mocking weird foreign people. Especially since Borat came out in the 2000s when Muslim terrorism and the Mideast wars were prominent in the media and public consciousness. Ask your "normie" conservative and right wing American friends and acquaintances. They generally think it's about mocking and insulting weird Mideastern-ish/Muslim-ish foreign people and think it's hilarious for doing so. In that sense, it's a very conservative, right-wing, nationalistic movie from an American perspective, since it's interpreted as making fun of non-American foreigners. The people who interpret it as being "really" about mocking white people tend to be liberals who are trying to rationalize away the more widespread interpretation that it's mocking foreigners.

    Replies: @Dissident

  69. Nobody forces you to enjoy music you don’t like. If a composer is a single-name entity, then he earned it.

  70. @AnotherDad
    @Ghost of Bull Moose


    We all know the future is beatdowns to the tune of Ludwig Van.
     
    I think the future is being strapped down with your eyes pinned opened.

    I just don't know whether it's going to be aversion therapy with endless inescapable scenes of pleasant middle class heterosexual family life accompanied by Beethoven's 9th.

    or

    just a steady diet of diversity "education", featuring the middle passage, slavery, red-lining, Emmett Till and of course the Holocaust, followed by lectures on structural racism and white fragility ... followed by homosexual love scenes and miscegenation porn.

    There are still surprises left in this world.

    Replies: @SFG

    There have been lots of Hollywood movies showing how straight white middle-class life is invariably hiding abuse and repression, all with Hollywood production values and so on, so I’d say that’s more effective than prying people’s eyes open. More flies with honey than vinegar as they say.

    The rest is as you say.

  71. @Buffalo Joe
    Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Known Fact, @Dmon, @Reg Cæsar, @Gary in Gramercy, @Charlotte, @Gordo

    And Pol Pot and Genghis Khan.

    ‘Adolf Hitler…..say his name!’

  72. Austrian saying about the stature of Richard Strauss: If Strauss then Johann if Richard then Wagner.

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Prester John
    @utu

    Richard Strauss allegedly once said about himself that "I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer."

    This, from the composer of "Death and Transfiguration."

    Replies: @Lace

    , @Morton's toes
    @utu

    On my local NPR music franchise (I have lived in three cities with them) Richard Strauss has always been more popular than Johann Strauss and my only recollection of Johann is from the annual New Years Day show broadcast on time delay from Vienna.

    Do the Austrians know this? Does the Salzberg antifa want to tear these down:

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-waymarking-images/f307ed68-7d65-49cc-82f0-f58e7f54023f_d.JPG

    ?

  73. Professor Chris White of course has a Twitter page :

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Calvin Hobbes

    This public humiliation is, actually- sad.

    , @duncsbaby
    @Calvin Hobbes

    "Y'all," is the true linguistic sign of a social justice grifter.

  74. A peculiarity of high brow music.

    If I casually refer to Ruth, Gehrig, Mays, or Aaron, imagine how confused the mid brow baseball fan would be. When you think about it, “Barry Bonds” is an insult because no one could ever confuse him with “Bobby Bonds”. And they don’t even call Eldrick Woods by his real name, just “Tiger”, an obvious diss when we speak of “Nicklaus”.

    /irony

    If you want to go about life looking for reasons to be offended, you’d have to be pretty dim to fail.

    • Replies: @guest
    @Dr. DoomNGloom

    I enjoy the alliteration of “Barry Bonds.” Sounds like a Marvel superhero.

    Though baseball’s real superhero was a man called “Bo.”

  75. “…butting headlong…” lol really?

  76. Are they pissed that Cher is more famous than Seal?

  77. We need to do this in sports, too. No more references to Magic, Michael, Kobe or LeBron. It minimizes the worth of Kurt Rambis and Bill Laimbeer

    • LOL: MEH 0910
  78. @SFG
    @Steve Sailer

    Hey, they play 4'33" all the time, even if he doesn't get credit.

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe, @Brás Cubas

    “4’33” – John Cage, not Philip Glass.

    Actually, I sort of liked Glass’s soundtrack to Errol Morris’s “The Fog Of War”:

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @Paul Jolliffe

    His Candyman theme isn't bad:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5-AHluVrJw

    Replies: @Black-hole creator

  79. @utu
    Austrian saying about the stature of Richard Strauss: If Strauss then Johann if Richard then Wagner.

    Replies: @Prester John, @Morton's toes

    Richard Strauss allegedly once said about himself that “I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer.”

    This, from the composer of “Death and Transfiguration.”

    • Thanks: utu
    • Replies: @Lace
    @Prester John

    But Richard Strauss was a first-rate composer. I just think of seeing and hearing Arabella sung by Kiri TeKanawa around 1994 at the Met, or her Marschallin--with that gorgeous music with the Kavalier--however I do not like that opera, because although they needed a second woman for the music, the Kavalier is supposed to be male, and they never even dress him as anything but a woman with very obvious hips. Very disagreeable. And his own waltz in Der Rosenkavalier is as elegant as any his earlier non-relative Johann Strauss II wrote--Balanchine's Vienna Waltzes has 3 by Johann II, one by Lehar, and the finale is the 'first sequence of waltzes from Der Rosenkavalier'. And of course the dancers look far more elegant than even the richest Viennese do at the real balls. Beautiful piece, much better than just hearing them with the orchestra or even in the opera in this case.

  80. If stuff like this is grist for Slate’s mill tells you all you need to know about Slate.

  81. @AndrewR
    Beethoven wasn't born until 1770, 20 years after J.S. Bach died. How were they "peers"? Beethoven also died in 1827, before you allege Mendelssohn to have repopularized Bach.

    Your rush to make your hot, contrarian takes often makes you look like a moron. Focus on quality instead of smartass "comedy" and quantity.

    Replies: @International Jew, @J.Ross, @Lace, @Richard S, @vinteuil, @Alfa158

    Because a peer is an equal (especially in art, where you want to be able to make comparisons across generations) and not necessarily a concurrent. They’re in the same ballpark as far as how good they are. One of the stock criticisms of medieval art was that it didn’t offer peers to classical and renaissance artists, which it wouldn’t be able to anyhow if the timing was part of it.

  82. @International Jew

    Louisville Orchestra praised the ensemble’s performance of a “Beethoven” symphony, and the debut of a composition memorializing Breonna Taylor by “Davóne Tines” and “Igee Dieudonné.”
     
    It wouldn't be so bad if they put the crap after intermission, but they never do.

    Replies: @JMcG, @vinteuil

    It’s like bundling cable channels. You are forced to pay for BET if you want to watch ESPN. I find it disappointing that many of the voices calling for an end to funding NPR do effectively the same thing in their private lives.

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @JMcG

    "You are forced to pay for BET if you want to watch ESPN."

    There's a difference?

  83. There’s a new Canadian artist whose voice and style sounds exactly like Sarah MacLachlan, and she has issued a reasonably pretty MacLachlanism which in lyrics (and, more clearly, video) is meant to teach that only white people culturally appropriate, and when they do, it is wrong, and somehow stops subcontinentals from being able to enjoy curry any more. You ate it for thousands of years but now it’s ours and not yours so be angry. The video looks like a CBC public service message from the mid-90s.

  84. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart isn’t Mozart’s long name. His full name at baptism was Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart. Perhaps we should take this argument to its absurd conclusion and use the long baptismal names.

    Also, Mendelssohn is usually credited with the Bach revival and there is some merit to that (works by Bach weren’t being programmed by orchestras but usually by the composer or conductor who put on the show) but Bach was well-known among other composers. Mozart traveled to England early in his life and met Bach’s son JC Bach (London Bach) and the Well-Tempered Clavier was standard repertoire for serious pianists (Mendelssohn’s similarly talented sister Fanny [whom the author should have mentioned] presented book I of the WTC to her father as a birthday gift when she was 12). Programming Bach was a big deal because usually it was contemporaries that got orchestral performances, but he was by no means unknown. As always, our esteemed historians play favorites and will credit Mendelssohn regardless

    • Agree: Lace
    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @Pop Warner


    Mendelssohn is usually credited with the Bach revival and there is some merit to that (works by Bach weren’t being programmed by orchestras but usually by the composer or conductor who put on the show) but Bach was well-known among other composers.
     
    Mendelssohn's role was way bigger than that. Before him, Nobody outside of professional circles cared all that much about past composers. He, more than anybody else, & for better or worse, pioneered the idea of a canon of great composers who you've just gotta know. Starting with Bach & Handel.
    , @Tex
    @Pop Warner


    Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart isn’t Mozart’s long name. His full name at baptism was Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart.
     
    Egads! What does this do to "Rock Me Amadeus"?!? Not only does Johann "Hans" Hölzel one-name Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart, but it's the wrong name!

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

  85. There will only be one Lemmy.

  86. @Anonymous
    Steve, can you review the new Borat movie? It just came out on Amazon Prime. Prime is running a free 30 day trial if you don't have it.

    Replies: @ic1000, @SFG, @Johnny Smoggins, @J.Ross, @ThreeCranes

    Irrelevance is his best possible fate; the best response was already written by George Saunders.
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/12/04/borat-the-memo

    • Replies: @International Jew
    @J.Ross

    That was pretty funny, thanks. Of course now he's a hero because of his Giuliani stunt.

  87. This is the first time I have ever seen Mahler’s first name. Because I am a poorly educated hick, I never knew what it was, nor cared, even though I enjoyed his music.

    Even at my alma mater we didn’t call him Alma Mahler. These people are full of Shit, first name Bull.

    — Mohawk

    • LOL: duncsbaby
    • Replies: @Larry, San Francisco
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Well it was Gustav Mahler. Alma was his wife. I wasn't aware that she wrote any music although she inspired a lot. She was the Patty Boyd of her time.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Eagle Eye

    , @Elsewhere
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Mahler is Gustav Mahler. Alma Mahler is his wife, which is why you never heard of Alma. I hadn't either until I looked it up on Wikipedia.

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Well, that was stupid.

  88. Do people drop the surname Beethoven?

    Being greeted with “da da da DA” must get old by the time you go to high school.

  89. Beethoven, Mozart, Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, Bach, Handel, Etc. A big part of the reason these men all go by one name is because that’s what sells tickets and puts butts in the seats. It’s marketing. Every other piece performed during a classical concert is filler. Some of it is fantastic, and some of it is absolute shit. But for whatever reason it doesn’t put butts in the seats.

    Example: my local symphony orchestra is performing Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture later this season. A great piece, by one of the greatest composers ever (and he was gay!) But it’s as overperformed a classical piece as ever there was, and not close to being Tchaikovsky’s best. The below-the-fold pieces are a couple of works by two Latin American composers, and Gabriel Faure’s Requiem – as sublime a musical composition as ever there was, and completely accessible to the modern listener. But it’s not even the headline number. Faure almost never is. Because most listeners have never heard of him, and he doesn’t put butts in the seats. And if Faure – excuse me, Gabriel Faure – can’t put butts in seats, then how is “Burleigh!” going to?

    And if “Faure!” seldom if ever gets his name on the marquee then I can guarantee you that orchestras will never have “Tines!” or “Burleigh!” or “Shaw!” on their advertisements because they would go broke if they did. Because it’s filler, and anyone who has ever been to classical concert knows that a large percentage of filler is crap, especially if it’s by a non-white guy or anyone born after, oh, 1900 (unless it’s a pops concert). Even some of the good classical stuff is hard to sit through, but a lot of the filler is torture.

    And Alma Mahler? I never even knew she wrote music. The only musical number I know in relation to her is *about* her.

    Tom Lehrer: “Oh the loveliest girl in Vienna was Alma, the smartest as well. Once you picked her up on your antenna you’d never be free of her spell…Alma tell us. All modern women are jealous. Tell us which of your magical wands got you Walter and Gustav and Franz.”

    As in Walter Gropius, Gustav Mahler, and Franz Werfel. Apparently her musical talents were so prodigious that Gustav insisted that she stop composing while they were married. So the Tom Lehrer number is all we have to go on.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    @Wilkey

    Alma was played on BBC 3 only last week. This was the lunchtime concert from Wigmore Hall. I caught it while driving along to my bookbinder who, as usual, was closed.

    I heard the announcer tell us that we were about to get two songs by Gustav and then a few more by Alma. We had recounted to us, dutifully, the story about Gustav shutting off her creative juices, not once, but twice.

    So how was she? I can't say, having been unable to get through even the first of Gustav's inevitable train wrecks.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @vinteuil

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Wilkey


    Beethoven, Mozart, Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, Bach, Handel
     
    There are several Bachs, and Mozart's father and son also composed. But we always seem to know which is being talked about with merely "Bach" or "Mozart".
  90. There’s a 7-11 in the River North neighborhood of Chicago which plays classical music, presumably to discourage the homeless who hang out on the sidewalk. Don’t know if it is working or not.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Flip

    Where is it? I'd like to go there when I return to my office which is near Michigan and Chicago.

    Replies: @Flip

  91. Van Beethoven is a Flemish surname. (The V capitalized here only because it begins a sentence.) Flemings and Dutch don’t drop the van. We don’t say Gogh, Buren, or Damme.

    Germans, however, drop the particule von E.g., Humboldt.. Thus, Herr van Beethoven has been assimilated to Teutonic culture.

    My favorite “fullname” (as a name, not as a composer) is Mrs H. H. A. Beach, whom moderns rudely refer to as Amy. She was one of those tough Victorian ladies who put today’s snowflake ideologues to shame.

    She’s being slowly cancelled for racial reasons, though. She mocked Dvořák’s suggestion we incorporate Negro and Red Indian elements into our music. We’re Brits, dammit!

    (BTW, Mr Besos, we need hačeks on the Kindle keyboard! I’m tired of search-and-paste.)

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Reg Cæsar


    My favorite “fullname” (as a name, not as a composer) is Mrs H. H. A. Beach
     
    Nothing beats former Alabama safety Ha’Sean Treshon Clinton-Dix.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  92. Actually- woke idiocy & music aside- this article made me think.

    Why do we always say the first name of prominent females?

    I get it when their husbands were also prominent (Marie Curie, Gerty Cori,…)- but why do we always say Emmy Noether instead of just Noether? There is no other Noether out there. Janice Joplin is because of Scott Joplin.

    Flannery O’Connor? There is an Irish writer with that surname, but …? Virginia Woolf – OK, there is Leonard. But Willa Cather, and not just Cather? Watson is just Watson, Crick is only Crick, but Rosalind Franklin is always Rosalind Franklin.

    On the other hand, Margaret Thatcher is mostly just- Thatcher…..

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Bardon Kaldian


    On the other hand, Margaret Thatcher is mostly just- Thatcher…..
     
    Maggie Thatcher to her friends, Thatcher the Milk Snatcher to her enemies.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Richard S

    , @El Dato
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I would assume "Noether" was a guy. It sounds guy-ish. You can see him smashing an invariant with a heavy axe.

    If you precede that name with "Emmy", you know it's not.

    These days, there still could be a transsexual in there, but not in the 19th century.

    OTOH, "Ada" is always "Ada, Countess of Lovelace", La Reine des Ordinateurs.

    , @Uncle Jack
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Emmy Noether's father Max was a very prominent mathematician.
    Her brother Fritz was also a mathematician but is remembered now
    mainly for his terrible, and terribly ironic, fate. He left Germany
    in the thirties for the obvious reasons, resettling in the Soviet Union.
    His career flourished there for a few years but he was in due course accused of
    "anti-soviet propaganda" or something, imprisoned, and shot.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    , @Lace
    @Bardon Kaldian

    No, there are numerous women writers referred to by their last names, at least they often are: Hellman, Austen, Didion, Sontag, McCullers, Sagan, maybe even Eliot (but not usually probably), Dickinson, Rowling sometimes, Oates, I'm sure I could think of a lot more. I'm sure 'Cather' is used often enough.

  93. @Black-hole creator
    That piece reeks of desperation - the author appears to be a straight gentile white male trying to stay alive in the most liberal part of academia. He is only an assistant professor so he is not tenured yet and he might never get that tenure because of his profile. It looks like he has already failed to get a tenure at least once, so yeah, if he fails at U. Mass. he is basically unemployable.

    That whole situation reminded me of this classic, tenure-related horror movie scene
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvIZ4ST6HqE

    Replies: @Charles St. Charles, @Close Reader

    That piece reeks of desperation – the author appears to be a straight gentile white male trying to stay alive in the most liberal part of academia. He is only an assistant professor so he is not tenured yet and he might never get that tenure because of his profile. It looks like he has already failed to get a tenure at least once, so yeah, if he fails at U. Mass. he is basically unemployable.

    You’re on to something here. I recently applied for a university fine arts teaching position. In nearly four decades of working and applying for teaching positions, this is the first application requiring a separate document – in addition to a cover letter and CV – describing my past, present, and future efforts to promote diversity and inclusion. I’m a White guy, so my chances are already slim for this gig.

    I think Chris, in writing and getting this stupid article published, is just adding ally points to his future tenure packet. White guys in academia are frantically trying to get a woke Passover sign painted above their office doors. Especially those whose employment is “precarious”, as they say.

    • Thanks: Black-hole creator
  94. Imagine if Beethoven’s first name had been Emmett.

  95. @utu
    Austrian saying about the stature of Richard Strauss: If Strauss then Johann if Richard then Wagner.

    Replies: @Prester John, @Morton's toes

    On my local NPR music franchise (I have lived in three cities with them) Richard Strauss has always been more popular than Johann Strauss and my only recollection of Johann is from the annual New Years Day show broadcast on time delay from Vienna.

    Do the Austrians know this? Does the Salzberg antifa want to tear these down:

    ?

  96. @Buzz Mohawk
    This is the first time I have ever seen Mahler's first name. Because I am a poorly educated hick, I never knew what it was, nor cared, even though I enjoyed his music.

    Even at my alma mater we didn't call him Alma Mahler. These people are full of Shit, first name Bull.

    -- Mohawk

    Replies: @Larry, San Francisco, @Elsewhere, @Buzz Mohawk

    Well it was Gustav Mahler. Alma was his wife. I wasn’t aware that she wrote any music although she inspired a lot. She was the Patty Boyd of her time.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Larry, San Francisco

    https://assets.ecenglish.com/blogs/uploads/sites/19/2017/10/homer_doh-w800-h600.jpg

    Reading comprehension not so good.

    , @Eagle Eye
    @Larry, San Francisco


    Alma was [Gustav Mahler's] wife. I wasn’t aware that she wrote any music although she inspired a lot.
     
    Alma certainly inspired a lot of men, including Gustav Mahler, Walter Gropius (architect, Bauhaus) and Franz Werfel (writer).

    Posthumously, Alma inspired a fun ballad by Tom Lehrer:

    Alma (ballad)

  97. @SFG
    @Steve Sailer

    Hey, they play 4'33" all the time, even if he doesn't get credit.

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe, @Brás Cubas

    That’s by John Cage. But I hear Philip Glass is doing a new orchestration.

  98. I think that the greatest talent is the ability to compose music. To be able to hear a melody in your head and then orchestrate it is beyond my grasp. I am referring to clasical music, so I guess that is racist.

    • Replies: @International Jew
    @Buffalo Joe

    Don't be too impressed. Harmonization (if that's what you mean by "orchestration") can be taught. A lot of people can even learn to do it, passably, in real time (on a piano or on a guitar).

    If you're kinda interested and you have the time, it's a fun and mind-expanding thing to learn.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    , @J.Ross
    @Buffalo Joe

    (The video is a huge letdown compared to the music)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak3PuKKukd8

  99. @Buzz Mohawk
    This is the first time I have ever seen Mahler's first name. Because I am a poorly educated hick, I never knew what it was, nor cared, even though I enjoyed his music.

    Even at my alma mater we didn't call him Alma Mahler. These people are full of Shit, first name Bull.

    -- Mohawk

    Replies: @Larry, San Francisco, @Elsewhere, @Buzz Mohawk

    Mahler is Gustav Mahler. Alma Mahler is his wife, which is why you never heard of Alma. I hadn’t either until I looked it up on Wikipedia.

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
  100. @Steve Sailer
    @notsaying

    Philip Glass is componsing away like crazy in his old age. I presume he hopes someday after his death to be known to the public as Glass.

    Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @SFG, @MEH 0910, @Lace, @guest

    P. D. Q. Bach: Prelude to “Einstein on the Fritz”

    [MORE]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._D._Q._Bach#Music

    There is often a startling juxtaposition of styles within a single P. D. Q. Bach piece. The Prelude to Einstein on the Fritz, which alludes to Philip Glass’ opera Einstein on the Beach, provides an example. The underlying music is J.S. Bach’s first prelude from The Well-Tempered Clavier, but at double the normal speed, with each phrase repeated interminably in a minimalist manner that parodies Glass. On top of this mind-numbing structure is added everything from jazz phrases to snoring to heavily harmonized versions of “Three Blind Mice” to the chanting of a meaningless phrase (“Koy Hotsy-Totsy,” alluding to the art film Koyaanisqatsi for which Glass wrote the score). Through all these mutilations, the piece never deviates from Bach’s original harmonic structure.[2]

  101. @Kronos
    Can’t we just trigger the woke to jump out of windows like in “A Clockwork Orange?” So when they hear classical western music they’ll jump just to escape the whiteness.

    https://youtu.be/PDkzbIIKDJU

    Replies: @International Jew, @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    Confirming my opinion: novels are invariably better than movies. In the novel, I vaguely remember this scene as great; here, it is hilarious.

    And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors.

    The same goes for Straw Dogs, 2001 Odyssey, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, Little Big Man, ..

    On the other hand, Spielberg’s movie is better than Benchley’s novel, while other Spielberg’s film is as bad as Walker’s (Alice?) novel.

    • Replies: @Lace
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, once in a while the movie actually improves upon the novel, as The Shining is infinitely better IMO than Stephen King's book (I mean mainly the corny, unscary ending of the book), although he was furious and made his own TV movie, already forgotten mostly. J.B. Priestley's novel Lost Empires was made into a marvelous Masterpiece Theater mini-series, and good as that novel is--with details not possible to include in the teleplay--the mini-series is better, but was probably too arcane to become popular (WWI Music Hall). I'm sure Gone With the Wind is better than the novel, which I've never been able to make myself read. Showboat is much better as a musical play or movie than the Edna Ferber book was (I did read that as a child.)

    Probably a few others, but of course, you're right for the most part, although I thought the first Far From the Madding Crowd was at least equal to the Hardy classic.

    On a side note, it's even more frequent that B'way shows are much worse when Hollywoodized.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Bardon Kaldian

    "And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors"

    I recently found newspaper adverts from 1973 for a double-bill of Clockwork Orange (1971) and Deliverance (1972). Extraordinary, although not a good choice for date night if one desires coitus at the end of the evening. Boomers were spoiled when it came to culture, particularly films. The 60s and 70s were celluloid golden years. Boomer music, however, is mostly a dud. The Beatles were good, though Lennon without McCartney is Yoko Ono. And how about Ringo, the gypsy goober hitting the skins? He's no Danny Carey. The worst offender is Eric Clapton. The only thing more sonically boring than blue-eye blues with an excremental Clapton solo over it is black blues.

    Replies: @Dissident, @Jack D

    , @Sollipsist
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I'd generally agree with you about the vast majority of films, but A Clockwork Orange may be the ONLY Kubrick film that isn't clearly higher quality than the source material.

    , @Kronos
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Don’t forget “The Godfather.” It’s one of the few instances when the film was superior to the book.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @dfordoom
    @Bardon Kaldian


    Confirming my opinion: novels are invariably better than movies.
     
    There have been plenty of movies that have been better than the books they were based on. For starters, The Shining. The novel on which Vertigo was based is pretty good, but Hitchcock's movie is better.
    , @Nicholas Stix
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Shane. A readable, if childish book. The author, Jack Schaefer, made the eponymous hero a tall, broad-shouldered, dark-haired superman. By contrast, George Stevens made Shane a blonde-haired, very mortal runt.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  102. @Dumbo
    Who writes this things? Who reads this things?
    Such dumb articles might as well be written and read by robots.
    They are pointless and a waste of time.
    I have no idea how Slate makes any money, if it does.

    Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @John Achterhof, @El Dato, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Woke Kampf Test:

    We have a pair of Antagonistic Neural Networks:

    One network writes the article.

    The other network, previously house-trained on wokery of all kinds and well-informed about all aspects concerning intersectionality, triangulation, critical race theory, project 1619 and the superiority of Black Egyptians/Black Greeks/Black Slavs/Black Celts, reads the result. It then either accepts or rejects the submission.

    If the article is rejected, it goes back be amended by network #1.

    If the article is accepted, it gets published in Slate.

  103. @YetAnotherAnon
    "Terence Blanchard’s depressing movie scores have pretty much destroyed Spike Lee’s career since he fired his dad"

    Wasn't his career negatively affected by something else? Something he said?

    Replies: @El Dato

    Both can be true!

  104. @guest
    @Anon

    The Two Johanns, yes. Odds are one would be referring to the Younger, a.k.a. the "Waltz King." But one must be doubly sure.

    Strauss the Younger also wrote opera, in which realm Richard Strauss was famous. So you can't just say "the Opera Strauss."

    Replies: @Anon, @Bardon Kaldian

    When I think of it- Kubrick chose the only valuable part of “Zarathustra”. Most of the rest is insufferable.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, but Salome is pure concentrated malevolent genius.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Kubrick hired Alex North to write a score for 2001 (North had composed the music for Kubrick's one-and-only big Hollywood movie, Spartacus). North wrote it too, or at least parts of it. But during the editing, Kubrick had started using other music as a place holder - The Blue Danube, Also Sprach Zarathustra, etc. - and eventually decided he liked those better.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekDscvvYOFg

    Replies: @Cortes

  105. Anonymous[504] • Disclaimer says:

    He is making a stupid point, but I wonder why White doesn’t just come out and say “equality in name length.” Then it becomes OK for him to admit the causation flows from admirers shortening greats’ names, not greats’ racial privilege shielding them against fulldub for doubleplusgood non-ingsoc; and that he actually hates the present-day admirers way more than he cares about the dead mononymic persyns. In the zeitgeist it’d have to run vice versa, however, so Mobutu Sese Seko Kuku Ngbendu Wa Za Banga gets shortened to a prestigious/compliant initialism a la RBG, ACB, AOC, RG3, and R2D2 (“It was the 70s, we didn’t have *time* back then!”). Of course the new naming fashion will disadvantage the various unwieldy Madonna Louise Ciconnes and Hillary Rodham Clintons in the process but that’s intentional.

    • LOL: El Dato
    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Anonymous

    This reminds of just the other day when a little stinky flower appeared in the low-wattage sewage stream that is modern politicial discourse, which turned out to be AOC being malcontent about something or other.

    Peak ‘faux outrage’? AOC berates Republicans for using nicknames when addressing female colleagues… even though she does the same

    No, not "wench", etc. but (I suppose) "Nancy", "Casio" etc.


    I wonder if Republicans understand how much they advertise their disrespect of women in debates when they consistently call women members of Congress by nicknames or first names while using titles & last names when referring to men of = stature.Women notice. It conveys a lot.

    — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@AOC) October 23, 2020
     

    https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1319497076842110976

    Stop hanging around uselessly on Twitter and go back to your required reading on the Green New Deal, Casio. Thermodynamics 101 at 18:00.

  106. When we do return to the concert halls, let’s return to concerts that play Ludwig Beethoven alongside Florence Price,

    Yup, once people start using Beethoven’s full name, we’ll realize that compositions like the 7th Symphony are hideously overrated……

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
  107. I wonder if this can be explained by the idea that back in the day of straight white male patriarchal supremacy men typically addressed each other by surname.

    Don’t forget also, that the Haydns, Mozarts and Beethovens were regarded as little more than servants by the grand Viennese swells that patronized them.

    Beethoven was forever falling in love with his aristocratic girl piano students. But he never got to marry any of them. I wonder why, daddy?

  108. @Black-hole creator
    That piece reeks of desperation - the author appears to be a straight gentile white male trying to stay alive in the most liberal part of academia. He is only an assistant professor so he is not tenured yet and he might never get that tenure because of his profile. It looks like he has already failed to get a tenure at least once, so yeah, if he fails at U. Mass. he is basically unemployable.

    That whole situation reminded me of this classic, tenure-related horror movie scene
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvIZ4ST6HqE

    Replies: @Charles St. Charles, @Close Reader

    No, actually. As can be seen from this other piece by him, the author is as gay as can be: https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/08/can-music-be-gay-listening-to-soundscapes-in-provincetown.html?via=recirc_recent

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @Close Reader


    Listening for Gayness in the Soundscapes of Provincetown
     
    That reminds me of this.

    https://youtu.be/OMdPj3HXMgQ
    , @Black-hole creator
    @Close Reader


    No, actually. As can be seen from this other piece by him, the author is as gay as can be: https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/08/can-music-be-gay-listening-to-soundscapes-in-provincetown.html?via=recirc_recent
     
    My bad - I only looked at his CV. I guess in some places being gay is no longer considered to be enough to offset that evil white maleness.

    Replies: @Dissident

  109. @Steve Sailer
    @guest

    Richard Wagner would be more famous in America today if he had had an elaborate middle name, like, say, Richard Theophilus Wagner. Being named "Richard Wagner," people get him confused with the actor who played Number Two in "Austin Powers."

    Replies: @Verymuchalive, @njguy73, @Known Fact

    But Wagner does at least benefit mightily from the pretentious foreign pronunciation of his name — Reek-hard Vaahgner. Imagine if he was just a good ol’ American Richard as in Simmons or Dreyfuss, and Wagner as in former Angels slugger Leon Wagner — Daddy Wags! I mean, The Ring Cycle by Dick Wagner lacks a certain gravitas.

  110. Amadeus, Amadeus

    Amadeus

    Amadeus, Amadeus

    Amadeus

    Amadeus, Amadeus

    Oh, oh, oh, Amadeus

  111. Zipf’s law. Trying to replace monosyllabic ‘Bach’ with six-syllable ‘Johann Sebastian Bach’ will fail for the same reason that six-syllable ‘Afro-American’ failed to replace monosyllabic ‘black.’

  112. @SFG
    @International Jew

    He's not gay, he's British. Had a zheena Alex found cute enough to go for the old in-out, in-out with, though being Alex he didn't actually ask first.

    Replies: @MEH 0910

    Had a zheena Alex found cute enough to go for the old in-out, in-out with, though being Alex he didn’t actually ask first.

    Before or after the Ludovico Technique?

    Bart v. Cupcakes

    http://aclockworkorangecollector.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-simpsons-kubrick-fied-or-kubrick-in.html

  113. @Reg Cæsar
    Van Beethoven is a Flemish surname. (The V capitalized here only because it begins a sentence.) Flemings and Dutch don't drop the van. We don't say Gogh, Buren, or Damme.

    Germans, however, drop the particule von E.g., Humboldt.. Thus, Herr van Beethoven has been assimilated to Teutonic culture.

    My favorite "fullname" (as a name, not as a composer) is Mrs H. H. A. Beach, whom moderns rudely refer to as Amy. She was one of those tough Victorian ladies who put today's snowflake ideologues to shame.

    She's being slowly cancelled for racial reasons, though. She mocked Dvořák's suggestion we incorporate Negro and Red Indian elements into our music. We're Brits, dammit!

    (BTW, Mr Besos, we need hačeks on the Kindle keyboard! I'm tired of search-and-paste.)

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    My favorite “fullname” (as a name, not as a composer) is Mrs H. H. A. Beach

    Nothing beats former Alabama safety Ha’Sean Treshon Clinton-Dix.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @ScarletNumber


    Nothing beats former Alabama safety Ha’Sean Treshon Clinton-Dix.

     

    Please restrain yourself. Nobody wants to hear about Clinton-Dix anymore!


    Ha’Sean Treshon Clinton-Dix = 9/6 cartoon handle.

  114. We need to start calling her Cherilyn Sarkisian instead of Cher so Britney Spears feels better I guess.

  115. @Buffalo Joe
    Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Known Fact, @Dmon, @Reg Cæsar, @Gary in Gramercy, @Charlotte, @Gordo

    And don’t forget Pol Pot. Why not just Pot?

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Known Fact

    Pol Pot wasn't his real name-he used it as an alias in the revolutionary underground. Same deal for Ho Chi Minh-he was born Nguyen Sinh Cung.

    Amongst the others, like many Javanese, Suharto had only one name. Many dictators like Assad, Marcos, Khomeini, and Castro were addressed by their surnames, as much as I can tell-I have no clue why Saddam wasn't, maybe just the MSM there. And in East Asia, the family name comes first, so the likes of Mao, Chiang, and Kim were indeed being addressed by their surnames.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  116. And they might talk about Alma Mahler, Florence Price, Henry Burleigh, and Caroline Shaw.

    No, unless you are in music academia (as I am), you are not talking about any of these people. Regular classical music fans see these names on a program and see it as a kind of broccoli or cod liver oil they must digest before they get to have their Black Forest Cake or Cannoli. These fifth-tier also-rans – selected in academia more for having vaginas and/or melanin than genius – will never be one-namers.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    @Charles St. Charles

    The BBC is forcing woman composers down our throats quite regularly now.
    The lessons imparted are not, I suspect, what its editors had hoped for.

    One learns, for example, that Clara Schumann, widely acknowledged to have been one of the greatest pianists of her time, wrote music that is eminently forgettable. A wiser generation than our own, realising this, and being unencumbered by jejune theories of equality and justice, promptly did forget it.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Dr. Mabuse

  117. Full names with emphasis on the middle name are for assassins

    John Wilkes Booth
    Lee Harvey Oswald

    and for presidents under an impeachment process

    William Jefferson Clinton

    • Replies: @Kolya Krassotkin
    @utu

    "Full names with emphasis on the middle name are for assasins."

    Does that also work for Hillary Rodham Clinton?

  118. Having Last Name status is clearly the greatest honor that can be bestowed in the classical music world. Composers such as Faure, Berlioz and Scriabin are always scrabbling away, just barely in or out of the club. But Borodin? In like Flynn!

    But there’s another name factor in classical — having a great middle name. Charles Villiers Stanford will never make the cut and just be Stanford, and Charles Stanford just doesn’t cut it either. But throw in that middle name and it’s magic. William Grant Still, the black US composer, benefits from this effect. Who would care about Bill Still?

  119. When a performer takes on a (stage) uni-name, it is for short-term, commercial purposes. Forgettable.

    When the modern-day followers of some guy who has been dead for a long time (thousands of years!) refer to the object of their fascination by a uni-name, it’s a sign of the object’s high esteem or infamy.

    A uni-name that is a first name, e.g. Moses, is the highest homage.

    Guys who use their middle names as a brand, e.g. John Maynard Keynes, are obnoxious.

  120. @Peter Johnson
    Requiring people to say "I am going to a Ludwig von Beethoven concert tonight" in place of "I am going to a Beethoven concert tonight "is pure, unadulterated virtue-signaling. The extra three syllables have zero information content.

    Replies: @bomag

    The extra three syllables have zero information content.

    Seems to be the main point of Wokesters: if they can get you to worry, and waste your time and resources, QED.

  121. @Wilkey
    Beethoven, Mozart, Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, Bach, Handel, Etc. A big part of the reason these men all go by one name is because that’s what sells tickets and puts butts in the seats. It’s marketing. Every other piece performed during a classical concert is filler. Some of it is fantastic, and some of it is absolute shit. But for whatever reason it doesn’t put butts in the seats.

    Example: my local symphony orchestra is performing Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture later this season. A great piece, by one of the greatest composers ever (and he was gay!) But it’s as overperformed a classical piece as ever there was, and not close to being Tchaikovsky’s best. The below-the-fold pieces are a couple of works by two Latin American composers, and Gabriel Faure’s Requiem - as sublime a musical composition as ever there was, and completely accessible to the modern listener. But it’s not even the headline number. Faure almost never is. Because most listeners have never heard of him, and he doesn’t put butts in the seats. And if Faure - excuse me, Gabriel Faure - can’t put butts in seats, then how is “Burleigh!” going to?

    And if “Faure!” seldom if ever gets his name on the marquee then I can guarantee you that orchestras will never have “Tines!” or “Burleigh!” or “Shaw!” on their advertisements because they would go broke if they did. Because it’s filler, and anyone who has ever been to classical concert knows that a large percentage of filler is crap, especially if it’s by a non-white guy or anyone born after, oh, 1900 (unless it’s a pops concert). Even some of the good classical stuff is hard to sit through, but a lot of the filler is torture.

    And Alma Mahler? I never even knew she wrote music. The only musical number I know in relation to her is *about* her.

    Tom Lehrer: “Oh the loveliest girl in Vienna was Alma, the smartest as well. Once you picked her up on your antenna you’d never be free of her spell...Alma tell us. All modern women are jealous. Tell us which of your magical wands got you Walter and Gustav and Franz.”

    As in Walter Gropius, Gustav Mahler, and Franz Werfel. Apparently her musical talents were so prodigious that Gustav insisted that she stop composing while they were married. So the Tom Lehrer number is all we have to go on.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan, @Reg Cæsar

    Alma was played on BBC 3 only last week. This was the lunchtime concert from Wigmore Hall. I caught it while driving along to my bookbinder who, as usual, was closed.

    I heard the announcer tell us that we were about to get two songs by Gustav and then a few more by Alma. We had recounted to us, dutifully, the story about Gustav shutting off her creative juices, not once, but twice.

    So how was she? I can’t say, having been unable to get through even the first of Gustav’s inevitable train wrecks.

    • LOL: Wilkey
    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @Old Palo Altan


    So how was she [Alma Mahler]? I can’t say, having been unable to get through even the first of Gustav’s inevitable train wrecks.
     
    Well, suffice it to say that you wouldn't have liked her stuff. Think the harmonic language of the Rückert-Lieder, or of Zemlinsky, with never any glimpse of a tune.

    Still, very competent - you might be surprised. Good enough, at any rate, to add some color to the legend that the musical world lost a great female voice because of Gustav's sexism...

    Except that it's far from clear that Gustav ever forbade her to compose, and it's very clear that in the last couple of years of their nine year marriage he positively encouraged her career as a composer.

    Anyway, YouTube has a collection of her surviving songs in a good orchestral arrangement by a certain Julian Reynolds. Worth a listen, if only to be able to say that you've been there & done that.

    Replies: @guest, @Old Palo Altan

    , @vinteuil
    @Old Palo Altan

    Oh, and...just for the record...I can't get enough of the songs of Gustav Mahler.

    Fischer-Dieskau's 1954 *Wayfaring Youth* with Furtwängler...

    Kathleen Ferrier's 1949 *Kindertotenlieder* with Bruno Walter...

    If only I could be 13 again, ready to discover such wonders, for the first time.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

  122. @Steve Sailer
    @notsaying

    Philip Glass is componsing away like crazy in his old age. I presume he hopes someday after his death to be known to the public as Glass.

    Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @SFG, @MEH 0910, @Lace, @guest

    Sometimes already has been. Jerome Robbins did a ballet Glass Pieces, which was thoroughly embarassing, as ugly as the music. You know–metropolitan people walking past each other, always looking ahead and never looking at each other in a ‘friendly way’ (very ‘people talking without speaking, people hearing without listening), as if big cities didn’t automatically make you do that. That was trite even then, but I cannot stand Philip Glass–I don’t know about now, but when it became big at first, the fans were often using Glass and Steve Reich as their ‘serious music’ along with their pop, as Joy Division or Blondie, still that way to a certain extent. ‘Cool stuff’ that is mainly easy-listening ‘serious music.’ When I was 20, I used to listen to Reich stoned, and thought I was the most au courant person…But I must concede that I think ‘Glass’ is already known by his last name, as is ‘Eno’, although people probably say ‘Philip Glass’ and ‘Brian Eno’ more than they do Elliott Carter or Pierre Boulez. Just looked up Eno: Full Name is Brian Peter George St John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Lace

    Sounds fabulous for the meeting of two British guys:

    First guy:
    Bond
    James Bond

    Then, the other guy:
    Eno
    Salle Eno
    de la Salle Eno
    Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    George Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    Peter George Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    Brian Peter George Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno

    Replies: @Cortes

    , @Polistra
    @Lace

    I've seen people refer to cellist yo-yo as simply "ma" but should not the family name come first? I'd be okay with "ma yo-yo" if he could be coaxed to play "my ding-a-ling"..

  123. We’ll have to extend this across the board, talking of William Shakespeare and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. And then there’s Plato, Socrates, Sophocles, etc. Their parents gave them a head start by making sure they had only one name to begin with. White privilege has deep roots.

  124. @AndrewR
    Beethoven wasn't born until 1770, 20 years after J.S. Bach died. How were they "peers"? Beethoven also died in 1827, before you allege Mendelssohn to have repopularized Bach.

    Your rush to make your hot, contrarian takes often makes you look like a moron. Focus on quality instead of smartass "comedy" and quantity.

    Replies: @International Jew, @J.Ross, @Lace, @Richard S, @vinteuil, @Alfa158

    I think he knew that, don’t be so fucking pedantic. Blog writing does not have to be that formal.

  125. @Bill Jones
    @Henry's Cat


    It’ll be hard work commentating on the Brazilian football team in future.
     
    Fred will be pissed, the first name's not the problem. Try getting "Frederico Rodrigues de Paula Santos " on the back of the shirt.

    https://cdn.swisscows.ch//https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0188/0122/products/IMG_20190130_120513_grande.jpg?v=1571438558

    Replies: @Rob McX, @M_Young

    He’ll have to switch to sumo wrestling if he wants to fit his full name on his shirt.

  126. @International Jew
    @AndrewR

    Well, that wasn't very nice.

    But it's true that Bach influenced Beethoven. It's enough to listen to the fugal movements of Beethoven's late sonatas.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Lace

    The ‘Fugue’ of the Hammerklavier is fantastic, but the whole piece is quite ‘mighty’ and magnificent. I worked on it a lot but never performed it.

  127. @Close Reader
    @Black-hole creator

    No, actually. As can be seen from this other piece by him, the author is as gay as can be: https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/08/can-music-be-gay-listening-to-soundscapes-in-provincetown.html?via=recirc_recent

    Replies: @Rob McX, @Black-hole creator

    Listening for Gayness in the Soundscapes of Provincetown

    That reminds me of this.

  128. @Lace
    @Steve Sailer

    Sometimes already has been. Jerome Robbins did a ballet Glass Pieces, which was thoroughly embarassing, as ugly as the music. You know--metropolitan people walking past each other, always looking ahead and never looking at each other in a 'friendly way' (very 'people talking without speaking, people hearing without listening), as if big cities didn't automatically make you do that. That was trite even then, but I cannot stand Philip Glass--I don't know about now, but when it became big at first, the fans were often using Glass and Steve Reich as their 'serious music' along with their pop, as Joy Division or Blondie, still that way to a certain extent. 'Cool stuff' that is mainly easy-listening 'serious music.' When I was 20, I used to listen to Reich stoned, and thought I was the most au courant person...But I must concede that I think 'Glass' is already known by his last name, as is 'Eno', although people probably say 'Philip Glass' and 'Brian Eno' more than they do Elliott Carter or Pierre Boulez. Just looked up Eno: Full Name is Brian Peter George St John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Polistra

    Sounds fabulous for the meeting of two British guys:

    First guy:
    Bond
    James Bond

    Then, the other guy:
    Eno
    Salle Eno
    de la Salle Eno
    Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    George Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    Peter George Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    Brian Peter George Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno

    • Agree: Lace
    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Superb! Thanks.

  129. @Bardon Kaldian
    @guest

    When I think of it- Kubrick chose the only valuable part of "Zarathustra". Most of the rest is insufferable.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan, @Mr. Anon

    Yes, but Salome is pure concentrated malevolent genius.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Old Palo Altan

    I am not very qualified re these matters, but I've, some time ago, come to the conclusion that R. Strauss is one of those creators whose reputation had sunk below his actual "weight" (whatever this may be). Nazi connection may have contributed, but the changes of taste- to call it that- seem to be of greater importance.

    Heidegger's reputation, on the other hand, only profited from the Nazi mystique. He wouldn't have been considered so towering a figure in post-war period had it not been for that aura of perverse Natsee quasi-erotic mystification.

  130. @Charles St. Charles

    And they might talk about Alma Mahler, Florence Price, Henry Burleigh, and Caroline Shaw.
     
    No, unless you are in music academia (as I am), you are not talking about any of these people. Regular classical music fans see these names on a program and see it as a kind of broccoli or cod liver oil they must digest before they get to have their Black Forest Cake or Cannoli. These fifth-tier also-rans - selected in academia more for having vaginas and/or melanin than genius - will never be one-namers.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

    The BBC is forcing woman composers down our throats quite regularly now.
    The lessons imparted are not, I suspect, what its editors had hoped for.

    One learns, for example, that Clara Schumann, widely acknowledged to have been one of the greatest pianists of her time, wrote music that is eminently forgettable. A wiser generation than our own, realising this, and being unencumbered by jejune theories of equality and justice, promptly did forget it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Old Palo Altan


    The BBC is forcing woman composers down our throats quite regularly now.
    The lessons imparted are not, I suspect, what its editors had hoped for.
     
    Sirius XM seems to give a lot of air-time to contemporary women composers. Some of it isn't bad, I guess. But generally modern symphonic music mostly just falls flat. European high culture seems to be running on fumes.
    , @Dr. Mabuse
    @Old Palo Altan

    The CBC is doing the same thing during their classical music programs. I think I've heard the complete musical output of Fanny Mendelssohn 3 times now. It's not that these musical works are bad; they're just forgettable. And all the time I'm listening to them, I'm thinking that I could be listening to Bach or Beethoven or Mendelssohn instead.

    How many other male composers of the past have been completely forgotten today in favour of the great One-Names mentioned here? I'll bet if you went on an alphabetical tour of Italy, nearly every small town or village would have some native son composer they could point to with pride. Being male didn't save them from being forgotten outside their little home circle. These painfully dredged up female composers are roughly on the same level as the unknown talented local boy who wrote masses for the village church back in the 17th century.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Fox, @guest

  131. I’m surprised that Edmond Dédé was as black as he was. Usually, accomplished 19th century people claimed as glories of the “black race” were mulattoes or quadroons. The unofficial motto of the American black and mulatto elite intelligentsia seems to be “Superior white blood will do the work and inferior Negro blood will get all the credit.”

  132. @Kronos
    Can’t we just trigger the woke to jump out of windows like in “A Clockwork Orange?” So when they hear classical western music they’ll jump just to escape the whiteness.

    https://youtu.be/PDkzbIIKDJU

    Replies: @International Jew, @Bardon Kaldian, @SunBakedSuburb

    Clockwork Orange (1971) is Kubrick’s weakest film. By 1970, 2001 was not proving to be the commercial or critical hit K. anticipated; he looked for a snapback, something he could film cheap and quick. Something to capitalize on the youth-in-revolt culture of the period. Because it is Kubrick it is still interesting and better than anything Tinseltown has produced in the last 12 months (low standard). Malcolm McDowell’s performance is the best thing about it.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    @SunBakedSuburb

    Why Kubrick decided to make A Clockwork Orange (1971) | MAKING FILM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyhthLszjEk


    A Clockwork Orange is perhaps Stanley Kubrick’s most controversial film and one “highly praised” by the likes of Fellini, Bunuel, and Kurosawa as well as “educational, scientific, political, religious and even law-enforcement groups," but it was really supposed to be a small film sandwiched between two epics— those being the monumental 2001: A Space Odyssey and Kubrick’s white whale… Napoleon.
     

    A Clockwork Orange | Making Film - playlist:
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGciYgiR4atGgpzCH5AHzCJR7WhTGHaa2

    https://www.youtube.com/c/CinemaTyler/playlists
  133. @JimB
    I wonder why there are no black death metal bands. Since death seems to be ubiquitous in the black teen community, you’d think such dark inflected music would be popular.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    I think that sort of thing and rap have the same appeal – an upraised middle finger.

    I have a dear cousin who is a 38 year old married father with a supervisory job (lapsed teacher). He sends out this Fakebook plea recently for some advice on finding 1970s heavy metal of interest. Some part of his head is still back in a disagreeable adolescence.

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Art Deco

    "disagreeable adolescence"

    I listen to progressive metal and instrumental stoner rock. I also listen to Debussy, Sibelius, Brahms, and Arvo Part. All of this music contains deep, transcendental melodies that brings one closer to the Universal Consciousness you call Jesus.

    Replies: @JimB

  134. re Alma
    To join this hussy to the 90s CBC theme, there’s a painfully badly written movie (at one point Gropius stands before a picture of a building and says that the design of buildings should reflect their function, in about those words) titled Bride of the Wind.

  135. @Flip
    There's a 7-11 in the River North neighborhood of Chicago which plays classical music, presumably to discourage the homeless who hang out on the sidewalk. Don't know if it is working or not.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    Where is it? I’d like to go there when I return to my office which is near Michigan and Chicago.

    • Replies: @Flip
    @Hibernian

    State and Illinois

  136. @Bardon Kaldian
    Actually- woke idiocy & music aside- this article made me think.

    Why do we always say the first name of prominent females?

    I get it when their husbands were also prominent (Marie Curie, Gerty Cori,...)- but why do we always say Emmy Noether instead of just Noether? There is no other Noether out there. Janice Joplin is because of Scott Joplin.

    Flannery O'Connor? There is an Irish writer with that surname, but ...? Virginia Woolf - OK, there is Leonard. But Willa Cather, and not just Cather? Watson is just Watson, Crick is only Crick, but Rosalind Franklin is always Rosalind Franklin.

    On the other hand, Margaret Thatcher is mostly just- Thatcher.....

    Replies: @Hibernian, @El Dato, @Uncle Jack, @Lace

    On the other hand, Margaret Thatcher is mostly just- Thatcher…..

    Maggie Thatcher to her friends, Thatcher the Milk Snatcher to her enemies.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Hibernian

    Anyway, she was the real deal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odb8ux3g9_8

    , @Richard S
    @Hibernian

    Lol, the “Iron Lady” to her (“friends” is too strong a word, but say) acolytes.

    “Target no. 1” and “that aul’ hooer in no.10” for certain 1980s politically active chaps with whom you presumably share an ethnic homeland.

    Replies: @Hibernian

  137. @Buffalo Joe
    I think that the greatest talent is the ability to compose music. To be able to hear a melody in your head and then orchestrate it is beyond my grasp. I am referring to clasical music, so I guess that is racist.

    Replies: @International Jew, @J.Ross

    Don’t be too impressed. Harmonization (if that’s what you mean by “orchestration”) can be taught. A lot of people can even learn to do it, passably, in real time (on a piano or on a guitar).

    If you’re kinda interested and you have the time, it’s a fun and mind-expanding thing to learn.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @International Jew

    Speaking of people going by first name and learning orchestration, there's Antony (of Antony & the Johnsons fame, if anyone knows David Tibet & Co.). Many years ago a mutual friend sneered about his first album: "Antony needs to learn that arranging is more that writing the same part for each instrument."

    Hmm, in more recent and relevant developments, Antony announces "her" new name is "Anohni".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_and_the_Johnsons

  138. Roll over Beethoven, and tell Tchaikovsky the news.

  139. America revealed its great racism back in the 1950s when it called that great Latinx composer “Desi Arnaz” or sometimes even Desi when he should have always been referred to by his full name, Desiderio Alberto Arnaz y de Acha III. Also do you remember than when he tried to miscegenate with a red haired white woman, the very next day his lifeless body was found hanging from a tree limb by a NOOSE? They would never have allowed such an interracial marriage to be depicted on TV.

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
  140. @AndrewR
    Beethoven wasn't born until 1770, 20 years after J.S. Bach died. How were they "peers"? Beethoven also died in 1827, before you allege Mendelssohn to have repopularized Bach.

    Your rush to make your hot, contrarian takes often makes you look like a moron. Focus on quality instead of smartass "comedy" and quantity.

    Replies: @International Jew, @J.Ross, @Lace, @Richard S, @vinteuil, @Alfa158

    a person of the same age, status, or ability as another specified person.
    “he has incurred much criticism from his academic peers”

    Please, get a fresher shtick than just angry misunderstanding, it has become tedious.

  141. @Old Palo Altan
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, but Salome is pure concentrated malevolent genius.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    I am not very qualified re these matters, but I’ve, some time ago, come to the conclusion that R. Strauss is one of those creators whose reputation had sunk below his actual “weight” (whatever this may be). Nazi connection may have contributed, but the changes of taste- to call it that- seem to be of greater importance.

    Heidegger’s reputation, on the other hand, only profited from the Nazi mystique. He wouldn’t have been considered so towering a figure in post-war period had it not been for that aura of perverse Natsee quasi-erotic mystification.

  142. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Kronos

    Confirming my opinion: novels are invariably better than movies. In the novel, I vaguely remember this scene as great; here, it is hilarious.

    And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors.

    The same goes for Straw Dogs, 2001 Odyssey, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Little Big Man, ..

    On the other hand, Spielberg's movie is better than Benchley's novel, while other Spielberg's film is as bad as Walker's (Alice?) novel.

    Replies: @Lace, @SunBakedSuburb, @Sollipsist, @Kronos, @dfordoom, @Nicholas Stix

    Yes, once in a while the movie actually improves upon the novel, as The Shining is infinitely better IMO than Stephen King’s book (I mean mainly the corny, unscary ending of the book), although he was furious and made his own TV movie, already forgotten mostly. J.B. Priestley’s novel Lost Empires was made into a marvelous Masterpiece Theater mini-series, and good as that novel is–with details not possible to include in the teleplay–the mini-series is better, but was probably too arcane to become popular (WWI Music Hall). I’m sure Gone With the Wind is better than the novel, which I’ve never been able to make myself read. Showboat is much better as a musical play or movie than the Edna Ferber book was (I did read that as a child.)

    Probably a few others, but of course, you’re right for the most part, although I thought the first Far From the Madding Crowd was at least equal to the Hardy classic.

    On a side note, it’s even more frequent that B’way shows are much worse when Hollywoodized.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Lace

    I think the works of certain novelists lend themselves readily to be filmed while others are essentially un-filmable. I put in the unfilmable category Tom Wolfe (The Right Stuff was an OK movie but not nearly as good as the book. Bonfire of the Vanities was a great novel but the movie fell completely flat. No one has even tried to film his late novels.) Ditto Philip Roth, although I thought that the recent Plot Against America mini-series was very well done (as a work of art, putting its politics aside).

    Replies: @Lace

    , @Anonymous
    @Lace

    The novel Gone with the Wind is much, much better than the movie, which is a total snooze IMHO.
    I thought the movie version of The Third Man was orders of magnitude better than the novel, which was a totally forgettable "entertainment" in Graham Greene's wording.

    Replies: @Lace

  143. @HammerJack
    Never heard of Prince, Rihanna, Beyonce, Usher, Tupac, Nelly,Seal, Ludacris, etc

    Replies: @Gary in Gramercy, @reactionry, @M_Young

    You forgot “Diddy,” the megalomaniac formerly known as P.Diddy, formerly known as Puff Daddy, formerly known as Sean Combs.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @Gary in Gramercy

    Thanks! I also forgot DRAKE

  144. Beethoven’s friend and pupil Ferdinand Ries is a fine example of a pretty damn good composer who will never enjoy Last Name status in the classical world, much less among the wider public. (Sadly there will never be a Mostly Mozart type festival dubbed Ries’ Pieces)

    • LOL: James Speaks
  145. @Hibernian
    @Bardon Kaldian


    On the other hand, Margaret Thatcher is mostly just- Thatcher…..
     
    Maggie Thatcher to her friends, Thatcher the Milk Snatcher to her enemies.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Richard S

    Anyway, she was the real deal.

  146. @J.Ross
    @Anonymous

    Irrelevance is his best possible fate; the best response was already written by George Saunders.
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/12/04/borat-the-memo

    Replies: @International Jew

    That was pretty funny, thanks. Of course now he’s a hero because of his Giuliani stunt.

  147. @jim jones
    Is there any area of human endeavour where Europeans have not wiped the floor with all comers?

    Replies: @James Speaks, @tr, @anonymous as usual

    Egg rolls and soy sauce come to mind. Also Dim Sum.

    We try. To wit: Moo Goo Gai Pan and General Tso’s chicken.

    • Agree: jim jones
  148. @Buffalo Joe
    Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Known Fact, @Dmon, @Reg Cæsar, @Gary in Gramercy, @Charlotte, @Gordo

    And talk about racism – Shaka (Zulu) genocided an estimated 1 million people using nothing but edged weapons, and he doesn’t even rate a mention.

  149. @Hibernian
    @Bardon Kaldian


    On the other hand, Margaret Thatcher is mostly just- Thatcher…..
     
    Maggie Thatcher to her friends, Thatcher the Milk Snatcher to her enemies.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Richard S

    Lol, the “Iron Lady” to her (“friends” is too strong a word, but say) acolytes.

    “Target no. 1” and “that aul’ hooer in no.10” for certain 1980s politically active chaps with whom you presumably share an ethnic homeland.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Richard S

    I have always been opposed to the IRA in the form that it has taken in my lifetime. The IRA of 1916 is another story.

    Replies: @Cortes, @Richard S

  150. @TheUmpteenthGermanOnHere
    Am I supposed to fullname Miles, Duke, Bird and Prez, too?

    Replies: @Gary in Gramercy, @Jonathan Mason

    Or Bud, Sonny, Monk, Mingus or Dolphy? C’mon, man!

  151. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Kronos

    Confirming my opinion: novels are invariably better than movies. In the novel, I vaguely remember this scene as great; here, it is hilarious.

    And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors.

    The same goes for Straw Dogs, 2001 Odyssey, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Little Big Man, ..

    On the other hand, Spielberg's movie is better than Benchley's novel, while other Spielberg's film is as bad as Walker's (Alice?) novel.

    Replies: @Lace, @SunBakedSuburb, @Sollipsist, @Kronos, @dfordoom, @Nicholas Stix

    “And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors”

    I recently found newspaper adverts from 1973 for a double-bill of Clockwork Orange (1971) and Deliverance (1972). Extraordinary, although not a good choice for date night if one desires coitus at the end of the evening. Boomers were spoiled when it came to culture, particularly films. The 60s and 70s were celluloid golden years. Boomer music, however, is mostly a dud. The Beatles were good, though Lennon without McCartney is Yoko Ono. And how about Ringo, the gypsy goober hitting the skins? He’s no Danny Carey. The worst offender is Eric Clapton. The only thing more sonically boring than blue-eye blues with an excremental Clapton solo over it is black blues.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @SunBakedSuburb


    although not a good choice for date night if one desires coitus at the end of the evening.
     
    Ah, yes, the incidental, gratutious boast of fornication. Seems it's never too long before it surfaces in the comments here...

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb

    , @Jack D
    @SunBakedSuburb


    Deliverance (1972). Extraordinary, although not a good choice for date night if one desires coitus at the end of the evening.
     
    I dunno. Certain hillbillies might find it to be stimulating.
  152. @Anonymous
    He is making a stupid point, but I wonder why White doesn't just come out and say "equality in name length." Then it becomes OK for him to admit the causation flows from admirers shortening greats' names, not greats' racial privilege shielding them against fulldub for doubleplusgood non-ingsoc; and that he actually hates the present-day admirers way more than he cares about the dead mononymic persyns. In the zeitgeist it'd have to run vice versa, however, so Mobutu Sese Seko Kuku Ngbendu Wa Za Banga gets shortened to a prestigious/compliant initialism a la RBG, ACB, AOC, RG3, and R2D2 ("It was the 70s, we didn't have *time* back then!"). Of course the new naming fashion will disadvantage the various unwieldy Madonna Louise Ciconnes and Hillary Rodham Clintons in the process but that's intentional.

    Replies: @El Dato

    This reminds of just the other day when a little stinky flower appeared in the low-wattage sewage stream that is modern politicial discourse, which turned out to be AOC being malcontent about something or other.

    Peak ‘faux outrage’? AOC berates Republicans for using nicknames when addressing female colleagues… even though she does the same

    No, not “wench”, etc. but (I suppose) “Nancy”, “Casio” etc.

    I wonder if Republicans understand how much they advertise their disrespect of women in debates when they consistently call women members of Congress by nicknames or first names while using titles & last names when referring to men of = stature.Women notice. It conveys a lot.

    — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@AOC) October 23, 2020

    Stop hanging around uselessly on Twitter and go back to your required reading on the Green New Deal, Casio. Thermodynamics 101 at 18:00.

  153. @Calvin Hobbes
    Professor Chris White of course has a Twitter page :

    https://twitter.com/chriswmwhite

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @duncsbaby

    This public humiliation is, actually- sad.

  154. A uni-name that is a first name, e.g. Moses, is the highest homage.

    Ann-Margret worked out sort of uncannily, and that really is her first name. Lots of pop and rock singers, but often not their real names.

  155. @Buffalo Joe
    Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Known Fact, @Dmon, @Reg Cæsar, @Gary in Gramercy, @Charlotte, @Gordo

    Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

    Roku offers a Dictators Channel. We have it on ours. Their National Parks channel disappeared, though, and when we reinstalled it, it was a shadow of its former self. Hope the tinpots get better treatment.

    https://www.rokuguide.com/channels/dictators-channel

    Mussalini [sic]

    Joe, I thought you were Italian!

    • Replies: @Charles St. Charles
    @Reg Cæsar

    I notice in the list of Roku’s featured dictators they leave off Portugal’s Salazar, probably the best educated most effective least oppressive dictator of the 20th century. He rarely gets discussed because we can’t have people thinking maybe dictatorship could work better than democracy...

  156. @Art Deco
    @JimB

    I think that sort of thing and rap have the same appeal - an upraised middle finger.

    I have a dear cousin who is a 38 year old married father with a supervisory job (lapsed teacher). He sends out this Fakebook plea recently for some advice on finding 1970s heavy metal of interest. Some part of his head is still back in a disagreeable adolescence.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb

    “disagreeable adolescence”

    I listen to progressive metal and instrumental stoner rock. I also listen to Debussy, Sibelius, Brahms, and Arvo Part. All of this music contains deep, transcendental melodies that brings one closer to the Universal Consciousness you call Jesus.

    • Replies: @JimB
    @SunBakedSuburb

    The granddaddies of death metal/heavy metal started off as a fun time blues band, but nobody paid attention. After seeing a movie marquee in 1968 advertising a schlock Boris Karloff movie, the guitarist got the bright idea to detune his guitar and change the name of his band from Earth to Black Sabbath. I’m not sure he was thinking about “Universal Consciousness” at the time since he was practically unconscious from drug use. Actually, to my puckish delight, I find from Wikipedia that all the founding members are still alive.

    http://www.moviemusic.com/imgcover/285/blacksabbath.gif

  157. @Bardon Kaldian
    Actually- woke idiocy & music aside- this article made me think.

    Why do we always say the first name of prominent females?

    I get it when their husbands were also prominent (Marie Curie, Gerty Cori,...)- but why do we always say Emmy Noether instead of just Noether? There is no other Noether out there. Janice Joplin is because of Scott Joplin.

    Flannery O'Connor? There is an Irish writer with that surname, but ...? Virginia Woolf - OK, there is Leonard. But Willa Cather, and not just Cather? Watson is just Watson, Crick is only Crick, but Rosalind Franklin is always Rosalind Franklin.

    On the other hand, Margaret Thatcher is mostly just- Thatcher.....

    Replies: @Hibernian, @El Dato, @Uncle Jack, @Lace

    I would assume “Noether” was a guy. It sounds guy-ish. You can see him smashing an invariant with a heavy axe.

    If you precede that name with “Emmy”, you know it’s not.

    These days, there still could be a transsexual in there, but not in the 19th century.

    OTOH, “Ada” is always “Ada, Countess of Lovelace”, La Reine des Ordinateurs.

  158. @jim jones
    Is there any area of human endeavour where Europeans have not wiped the floor with all comers?

    Replies: @James Speaks, @tr, @anonymous as usual

    Defect-free automobile manufacture?

  159. SAY HIS (full) NAME!!! SAY HIS (full) NAME!!!!!!!

  160. Beethoven’s name was not “van.” He was born Ludwig Beethoven. He himself as an adult added the aristocratic particle “van” to his birth name (using the Dutch article “van” instead of the German article “von” in order to confound Germans who knew their aristocracy) so that people would think he was aristocratic, which he wasn’t.

    Learn what you’re talking about before you talk about it.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @obwandiyag

    He was the son of Johann van Beethoven and the grandson of Ludwig van Beethoven.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @obwandiyag


    Learn what you’re talking about before you talk about it.
     
    DID YOU KNOW THAT LUDWIG VAN BEETHOVEN'S ROOTS LIE IN MECHELEN?

    https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ee8bb9_cf5ec71729864b9ab39763bf35ac469f~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_473,h_292,al_c,lg_1,q_80/ee8bb9_cf5ec71729864b9ab39763bf35ac469f~mv2.webp

  161. @Hibernian
    @Flip

    Where is it? I'd like to go there when I return to my office which is near Michigan and Chicago.

    Replies: @Flip

    State and Illinois

  162. @Reg Cæsar
    @Buffalo Joe


    Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

     

    Roku offers a Dictators Channel. We have it on ours. Their National Parks channel disappeared, though, and when we reinstalled it, it was a shadow of its former self. Hope the tinpots get better treatment.

    https://www.rokuguide.com/channels/dictators-channel


    Mussalini [sic]
     
    Joe, I thought you were Italian!

    Replies: @Charles St. Charles

    I notice in the list of Roku’s featured dictators they leave off Portugal’s Salazar, probably the best educated most effective least oppressive dictator of the 20th century. He rarely gets discussed because we can’t have people thinking maybe dictatorship could work better than democracy…

  163. @Bardon Kaldian
    @guest

    When I think of it- Kubrick chose the only valuable part of "Zarathustra". Most of the rest is insufferable.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan, @Mr. Anon

    Kubrick hired Alex North to write a score for 2001 (North had composed the music for Kubrick’s one-and-only big Hollywood movie, Spartacus). North wrote it too, or at least parts of it. But during the editing, Kubrick had started using other music as a place holder – The Blue Danube, Also Sprach Zarathustra, etc. – and eventually decided he liked those better.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Mr. Anon

    Zarathustra was used as the theme music for the BBC coverage of the Apollo missions. The programmes were fronted by James Burke, one of the presenters of the “Tomorrow’s World” flagship popular science series which promised us a guaranteed future of jet pack and flying car travel, endless expansion into the Cosmos etc.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  164. @Old Palo Altan
    @Charles St. Charles

    The BBC is forcing woman composers down our throats quite regularly now.
    The lessons imparted are not, I suspect, what its editors had hoped for.

    One learns, for example, that Clara Schumann, widely acknowledged to have been one of the greatest pianists of her time, wrote music that is eminently forgettable. A wiser generation than our own, realising this, and being unencumbered by jejune theories of equality and justice, promptly did forget it.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Dr. Mabuse

    The BBC is forcing woman composers down our throats quite regularly now.
    The lessons imparted are not, I suspect, what its editors had hoped for.

    Sirius XM seems to give a lot of air-time to contemporary women composers. Some of it isn’t bad, I guess. But generally modern symphonic music mostly just falls flat. European high culture seems to be running on fumes.

  165. @Buffalo Joe
    Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Known Fact, @Dmon, @Reg Cæsar, @Gary in Gramercy, @Charlotte, @Gordo

    Mao. Just Mao.

  166. @PhilK
    Beethoven's first name was Ludwig? I thought it was Camper.

    Replies: @Sollipsist

    Currently under investigation for taking the skinheads bowling.

  167. @Old Palo Altan
    @Charles St. Charles

    The BBC is forcing woman composers down our throats quite regularly now.
    The lessons imparted are not, I suspect, what its editors had hoped for.

    One learns, for example, that Clara Schumann, widely acknowledged to have been one of the greatest pianists of her time, wrote music that is eminently forgettable. A wiser generation than our own, realising this, and being unencumbered by jejune theories of equality and justice, promptly did forget it.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Dr. Mabuse

    The CBC is doing the same thing during their classical music programs. I think I’ve heard the complete musical output of Fanny Mendelssohn 3 times now. It’s not that these musical works are bad; they’re just forgettable. And all the time I’m listening to them, I’m thinking that I could be listening to Bach or Beethoven or Mendelssohn instead.

    How many other male composers of the past have been completely forgotten today in favour of the great One-Names mentioned here? I’ll bet if you went on an alphabetical tour of Italy, nearly every small town or village would have some native son composer they could point to with pride. Being male didn’t save them from being forgotten outside their little home circle. These painfully dredged up female composers are roughly on the same level as the unknown talented local boy who wrote masses for the village church back in the 17th century.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Dr. Mabuse

    And then there's all the forgotten pieces by the one-name giants ... like one of the best operas I went to in recent years at the Pacific Opera Project was "La Gazette" by Rossini (the Lone Ranger Theme guy). This was only its second production ever in the US in its 200 years of existence.

    Replies: @Lace, @Polistra, @Franz Liszt von Raiding

    , @Fox
    @Dr. Mabuse

    That made me think of La Wally by Alfredo Catalani; it's a great opera, but hardly known.
    It is noteworthy that since 1945 there has been a steep decline in creative production in the world. The "morphic field" that fertilized, inspired and drove on to more understanding and penetration of our world's reality has been destroyed by the two world cataclysms. While we know little or nothing of many of the composers of the past because they were forgotten amidst a wealth of other great talent and genius, we seem to have no great creative talent that is active today.

    , @guest
    @Dr. Mabuse

    500 years--give or take--contains such an enormous variety of music. I didn't know how many great composers there were until I stepped foot in the classical world. Then I was overcome and had to put ones with whom I was familiar in perspective. And I'm not talking "Oh, I heard her name once" perspective.

    The person writing this Slate article has in mind great-greats and lesser-greats. The girlies listed should be at least four layers down from there.

    Say your local boys and incidental wives of more famous composers are together on rank five.

    First rank would be the Immortals. Killer Bs, Mozart, Wagner, Tchaikovsky. Maybe a few more.

    Second rank would be guys the general public has heard all their lives, even if they can't attach a name to the music. Vivaldi, Chopin, Liszt, Berlioz, Bizet, Debussy, Rossini, Verdi, etc.

    Third rank would be names every fan of classical music knows which didn't manage to stick in public consciousness. Like Telemann, Scarlatti, Cherubini, Purcell, etc.

    Fourth rank would be guys who either were one-hit wonders (like the Sorcerer's Apprentice guy) or who churned out quality work without ever gaining special notice in the longview of history. Chiefly the province of academics or classical obsessives. Not because a general audience wouldn't enjoy them, but because no one is looking. I feel the movie Amadeus consigned Salieri to this level. There's nothing wrong with him. In fact, I enjoy what I've heard. It's just that no one's interested .

    Finally, we reach the fifth rank. The rank of Everyone Else. One must dig through literally hundreds of names to get here. Maybe you find a gem. Maybe you find nothing. But there is simply so much high-quality material on the other ranks.

  168. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Lace

    Sounds fabulous for the meeting of two British guys:

    First guy:
    Bond
    James Bond

    Then, the other guy:
    Eno
    Salle Eno
    de la Salle Eno
    Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    George Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    Peter George Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno
    Brian Peter George Saint John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno

    Replies: @Cortes

    Superb! Thanks.

  169. @Henry's Cat
    Hands up anyone who thought his first name was Rollover.

    Replies: @Muggles

    Hands up anyone who thought his first name was Rollover.

    And tell Tchaikovsky the news

  170. @Gary in Gramercy
    @HammerJack

    You forgot "Diddy," the megalomaniac formerly known as P.Diddy, formerly known as Puff Daddy, formerly known as Sean Combs.

    Replies: @HammerJack

    Thanks! I also forgot DRAKE

  171. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Kronos

    Confirming my opinion: novels are invariably better than movies. In the novel, I vaguely remember this scene as great; here, it is hilarious.

    And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors.

    The same goes for Straw Dogs, 2001 Odyssey, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Little Big Man, ..

    On the other hand, Spielberg's movie is better than Benchley's novel, while other Spielberg's film is as bad as Walker's (Alice?) novel.

    Replies: @Lace, @SunBakedSuburb, @Sollipsist, @Kronos, @dfordoom, @Nicholas Stix

    I’d generally agree with you about the vast majority of films, but A Clockwork Orange may be the ONLY Kubrick film that isn’t clearly higher quality than the source material.

    • Agree: West reanimator
  172. So what about Kobe, Michael, Magic, Hakeem, Yao, Manute, Tiger, et. al?

    None of those is a white guy (White!) is he?

    Does this moronic “professor” think that this single name “fetish” of recognition demeans traditional Euro Americans in sports?

    White people also invented the fork. So does this mean spearing your steak is an inherently racist way of eating?

    Looks like there are plenty of grievances out there for aspiring non tenured academics to write about. Curious though, that so far none of this whining about trivia is coming from actual black people, usually, especially those living in Africa. White gay academics must go there and teach them about this!

    Of course this line of authoritarianism goes: first we tell you what words you can use/not use, then we demand that you spell them differently than the way they have always been spelled. Then we publicly shame/persecute you if you don’t obey our commands. E.g. “sexual preference.”

    All of these inventions are designed to stamp out WrongThink. You know, the way you think about things now. But you have to keep up. Today’s RightThink may be tomorrow’s WrongThink. Keep up with those Twitter feeds or be damned!

  173. @Close Reader
    @Black-hole creator

    No, actually. As can be seen from this other piece by him, the author is as gay as can be: https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/08/can-music-be-gay-listening-to-soundscapes-in-provincetown.html?via=recirc_recent

    Replies: @Rob McX, @Black-hole creator

    No, actually. As can be seen from this other piece by him, the author is as gay as can be: https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/08/can-music-be-gay-listening-to-soundscapes-in-provincetown.html?via=recirc_recent

    My bad – I only looked at his CV. I guess in some places being gay is no longer considered to be enough to offset that evil white maleness.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Black-hole creator


    I guess in some places being gay is no longer considered to be enough to offset that evil white maleness.
     
    Might the examples of Andrew Sullivan and Douglas Murray illustrate what you speak of?

    More than than that, an individual can be solidly Gay and be a member of one or even more than one additional intersectionality-favored groups, but if he runs afoul of the Woke orthodoxy in some key area...Consider the examples of Glenn Greenwald and Andy Ngo.

    I am now reminded of a piece that appeared on VDARE within a short time of the 2016 election, about individuals who were fully "out" as Gay (and suffered no negative consequences for such openness) but who dared not come out as Trump supporters (or perhaps even merely as immigration restrictionists), lest they face very real, very negative consequences for doing so.

    Then there are those individuals who may, in one form or another, have homoerotic proclivities (whether to the exclusion of heteroerotic ones or in addition to them) yet resolutely reject one or more of the doctrinaire assertions of LGBTQ ideology, as well as one more aspects of the prevailing Gay behaviors and lifestyle. There are even at least some such individuals who vehemently reject pretty-much all of the aforementioned, and who hold dissident, deplorable views in other areas.

    It should not be difficult to imagine a case where such an individual's anti-Woke views would cancel-out whatever points of intersectionality he would otherwise enjoy. With some further thought, one should even be able to conceive of a case in which such "intersectionality Pokemon points" that would otherwise work favorably toward such an individual, would instead actively work against him, as negative points. Now imagine an individual for whom all of the aforementioned factors applied, plus an additional one. Namely, that his personal homoerotic proclivities would be of a particular nature that makes them highly conducive to being cynically, blatantly hypocritically weaponized against him-- by the very same individuals who would, in the case of a Goodthinker, defend and even extol and champion (almost*) the very same proclivities in-question. Adding all of the aforementioned together, one should be able to imagine a case of what might, if you will, be called inverted intersectionality.

    *The subjects of attraction could be identical. The nature of the attraction, though, would differ in some critical and fundamental aspects.)

    Those interested in some further, related writing of mine, may wish to start with this recent past comment of mine.

  174. @Known Fact
    @Buffalo Joe

    And don't forget Pol Pot. Why not just Pot?

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Pol Pot wasn’t his real name-he used it as an alias in the revolutionary underground. Same deal for Ho Chi Minh-he was born Nguyen Sinh Cung.

    Amongst the others, like many Javanese, Suharto had only one name. Many dictators like Assad, Marcos, Khomeini, and Castro were addressed by their surnames, as much as I can tell-I have no clue why Saddam wasn’t, maybe just the MSM there. And in East Asia, the family name comes first, so the likes of Mao, Chiang, and Kim were indeed being addressed by their surnames.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @nebulafox


    Amongst the others, like many Javanese, Suharto had only one name.
     
    In Mongolia, Dugar Khorloogiin became Choibalsan as a tween monastic seminarian, and kept the name for his career as a Communist leader. Mongolians have patronymics rather than surnames, as do many other peoples (notably in the West, Icelanders), so calling them by their first names is natural. Otherwise it's dad's name, as with Ibn Khaldun, whose own name seems to have been lost.

    However, Choibalsan was apparently a bastard, so he had a matronymic. I'd read he'd tried to force all Mongolians to go mononymic like him. Mongolia is big, by the way:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/montana-in-mongolia-photo-u1-49901.jpg


    Now, for something completely different-- Steve's county has more people than all but seven states:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/blue-states-have-a-smaller-population-than-los-angeles-county-photo-u1-93645.jpg?width=800&height=505


    Texas's most important map:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/texas-in-africa-photo-u1-83635.jpg?width=800&height=533



    (Texas's least important map/Najmniej ważna mapa Teksasu)


    Now here's an Electoral College map to beat all-- shades of 1924!



    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/popular-coffee-shop-chains-by-number-of-locations-photo-u1-96212.jpg?width=800&height=491

    Starbucks: 343
    Dunkin' 185
    Caribou 10

    https://gisgeography.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/US-Election-1924.png

    Coolidge: 382
    Davis: 136
    La Follette: 13


    Density-- the only map on which Rhode Island dwarfs Alaska:

    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/1002050868-photo-u1-39749.jpg?width=800&height=706


    Diversity will be our strength in Iowaq, Guatemaine, and Zimzona:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Countries-fitting-inside-the-United-States-88354.jpg?width=800&height=671

    Replies: @Wilkey, @Dr. Mabuse

  175. Anonymous[734] • Disclaimer says:
    @Johnny Smoggins
    @Anonymous

    I can have a go at a quick review of the new Borat movie;

    A childish, annoying, stupid, unfunny Jew makes fun of White people and mocks their culture for an hour and a half.

    Save your money and make a cash donation to the ADL instead.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    That’s one level and interpretation of the movie. But note that the main interpretation for most average American viewers is that Borat the character and the movies are making fun of and mocking weird foreign people. Especially since Borat came out in the 2000s when Muslim terrorism and the Mideast wars were prominent in the media and public consciousness. Ask your “normie” conservative and right wing American friends and acquaintances. They generally think it’s about mocking and insulting weird Mideastern-ish/Muslim-ish foreign people and think it’s hilarious for doing so. In that sense, it’s a very conservative, right-wing, nationalistic movie from an American perspective, since it’s interpreted as making fun of non-American foreigners. The people who interpret it as being “really” about mocking white people tend to be liberals who are trying to rationalize away the more widespread interpretation that it’s mocking foreigners.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Anonymous


    Especially since Borat came out in the 2000s when Muslim terrorism and the Mideast wars were prominent in the media and public consciousness.
     
    The individual you were replying-to, "Johnny Smoggins", commented specifically on the new, i.e., recently-released, "Borat" film. Your comment seems to overwhelmingly be about the first one.
  176. @notsaying
    No. The one name wonders don't affect contemporary composers negatively. I suspect there are more than a few with secret dreams of being referred to by just their last names someday. Why remove that hope?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    “I suspect there are more than a few with secret dreams of being referred to by just their last names someday. Why remove that hope?”

    Shostakovich died 1975. He is the last composer I can think of commonly referred to by last name alone. Edit: aww, damn, forgot about Copland and Bernstein.

    Nobody says “Williams” whilst referring to the great film composer John Williams. Even fanciers of minimalist composer Glass call him Philip Glass. Same with John Adams or Steve Reich.

    After Shosty (and Copland and Bernie), can you think of another classical cat called by last name alone? I’d nominate Kapustin whose eight concert etudes are frequently performed and recorded these days.

    • Replies: @guest
    @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    I get a little shaky here, because I barely consider these guys classical composers. However, I think Stockhausen, Babbitt, Ligeti, and Hindemith attained one-name status.

    That is, within the world of modernist music. The general public has no idea who they were. The general concert-going public might have heard the names but wouldn't want to hear the music.

    Replies: @Lace

  177. That’s right nebulafox, Mr. Pot actually was born Saloth Sar. Anyway, building a brand as an iconic last-name-only despot (or first name only, as in Evita!) doesn’t quite click if some dopey wife or relative — Imelda Marcos for example — makes it necessary to distinguish who you’re talking about.

  178. @Paul Jolliffe
    @SFG

    “4’33” - John Cage, not Philip Glass.

    Actually, I sort of liked Glass’s soundtrack to Errol Morris’s “The Fog Of War”:

    https://youtu.be/VgA98V1Ubk8

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    His Candyman theme isn’t bad:

    • Disagree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @Black-hole creator
    @Stan Adams

    Occasionally, Glass can be awesome

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-WjAOdkU5E

  179. Anonymous[374] • Disclaimer says:

    Christopher White recently published several articles including “Influences of Chord Change on Metric Accent” in Psychomusicology, Autocorrelation of Pitch-Event Vectors in Meter Finding in Mathematics and Computation in Music (CITE), and “Meter’s Influence on Theoretical and Corpus-Derived Harmonic Grammars” in Indiana Theory Review. He also recently presented at Mathematics and Computation in Music, Society for Music Perception and Cognition, and Wellesley’s Music Lecture Series. Chris is currently Chair of the Society for Music Theory’s Music Informatics Group, Secretary of the New England Conference of Music Theorists, and a Civic Engagement and Service-Learning Faculty Fellow at UMass Amherst.

    Well, like wow or something. But Chris, I composed a jingle for a friend’s cookie shop, recorded myself playing it on the piano and singing the lyrics that I also wrote, and it was broadcast over local radio and one day when I was shopping in Wall Barf I was in the cookie aisle and I heard a customer singing it to himself, substituting some made-up mildly scatological lyrics rather than those I wrote (what rhymes with cookie…?)
    How about that, huh?

  180. Anonymous[463] • Disclaimer says:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/newsbeat-54660408

    Misty Copeland: Ballet’s listening after George Floyd

    “As the world is changing, as it grows more diverse, if the ballet world doesn’t evolve with it, then it’s going to die,” Misty Copeland tells reporter Jenna Adae.

    The American ballet star is one the most famous black dancers in the world.

    She says that after George Floyd’s death and the focus on Black Lives Matter, for the first time in her 20-year career, people are starting to listen to her about the problem of diversity within the global ballet industry.

    She became the first black woman to become the principal dancer at the American Ballet Theatre in its 81-year history.

    “There’s so many communities that are not going to support an art form that they feel doesn’t want them to be a part of it,” she says.

    As part of Black History Month, Newsbeat also speaks to other dancers about the importance of role models and pre-conceived ideas about body shape.

  181. So, I guess there go the rest of the great ‘old, dead white guys’ that are all known by their first names or their surnames only … da Vinci, Shakespeare, Galileo, Einstein, Edison, Bell, Wagner, Plato, Aristotle, Rembrandt, Renoir, Socrates, Gutenberg, Buddha and countless other composers, artists, inventors, etc.

    • Replies: @Lace
    @Dago Shoes

    Except that you have to know which domain you're talking about to use 'Renoir' as a last-name-only. Painting or film--Pierre-Auguste or Jean.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Dago Shoes


    their surnames only … da Vinci
     
    Leonardo was his name. "Da Vinci" was his address. Indeed, that's one way to tell an expert from a poseur.

    What kind of dago are you, anyway, to make that mistake. And Buffalo Joe misspelled "Mussolini". Honor your heritage!

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Dago Shoes

    , @anonymous coward
    @Dago Shoes

    Missing the big one.


    Hitler
     
    There. I said it. Time to dismantle Western European civilization. What's worse than Hitler?

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

  182. More bologna has a first name
    Its O-S-C-A-R

  183. @nebulafox
    @Known Fact

    Pol Pot wasn't his real name-he used it as an alias in the revolutionary underground. Same deal for Ho Chi Minh-he was born Nguyen Sinh Cung.

    Amongst the others, like many Javanese, Suharto had only one name. Many dictators like Assad, Marcos, Khomeini, and Castro were addressed by their surnames, as much as I can tell-I have no clue why Saddam wasn't, maybe just the MSM there. And in East Asia, the family name comes first, so the likes of Mao, Chiang, and Kim were indeed being addressed by their surnames.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Amongst the others, like many Javanese, Suharto had only one name.

    In Mongolia, Dugar Khorloogiin became Choibalsan as a tween monastic seminarian, and kept the name for his career as a Communist leader. Mongolians have patronymics rather than surnames, as do many other peoples (notably in the West, Icelanders), so calling them by their first names is natural. Otherwise it’s dad’s name, as with Ibn Khaldun, whose own name seems to have been lost.

    However, Choibalsan was apparently a bastard, so he had a matronymic. I’d read he’d tried to force all Mongolians to go mononymic like him. Mongolia is big, by the way:

    Now, for something completely different– Steve’s county has more people than all but seven states:

    Texas’s most important map:

    (Texas’s least important map/Najmniej ważna mapa Teksasu)

    Now here’s an Electoral College map to beat all– shades of 1924!

    [MORE]

    Starbucks: 343
    Dunkin’ 185
    Caribou 10

    Coolidge: 382
    Davis: 136
    La Follette: 13

    Density– the only map on which Rhode Island dwarfs Alaska:

    Diversity will be our strength in Iowaq, Guatemaine, and Zimzona:

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    @Reg Cæsar


    Texas’s most important map:
     
    One of my college history professors (who, yes, was black) liked to point out that standard Mercator projection maps make Africa look much smaller than it actually is. It was clearly a matter of pride for him: "Look how big MY continent is compared to yours." I'm not sure if it was ever that popular to point out, or if that was just his obsession, but I don't seem to hear it mentioned much nowadays. Most of the maps I see are still Mercator maps.

    My pet theory for why pointing out Africa's real size has never become a popular cause is because people might get the idea that since Africans already have a pretty big damn continent of their own there's no reason for Europeans to give them their puny little peninsula, as well.

    * If you're keeping score, Africa (11.73 million square miles) is almost exactly three times as large as Europe (3.93 million square miles).
    , @Dr. Mabuse
    @Reg Cæsar

    Texas's most important map? I beg to differ! Surely that was SCTV's "What Fits Into Russia" sketch, where "the long-horned, anti-Leninists of Texas" are put in their place.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXqKkYYALMU

  184. @Anonymous
    Steve, can you review the new Borat movie? It just came out on Amazon Prime. Prime is running a free 30 day trial if you don't have it.

    Replies: @ic1000, @SFG, @Johnny Smoggins, @J.Ross, @ThreeCranes

    I made it through about 15 minutes of it.

  185. @Steve Sailer
    @notsaying

    Philip Glass is componsing away like crazy in his old age. I presume he hopes someday after his death to be known to the public as Glass.

    Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @SFG, @MEH 0910, @Lace, @guest

    Glass does a lot of movie scores, doesn’t he? I assume that’s his most known work amongst the general public. Movie composers don’t tend to get the one-name treatment.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @guest

    Movie scores are anti-music; just enough sound to not make you realize that you're listening to silence.

  186. “When we say, ‘Tonight, you’ll be hearing symphonies by Johannes Brahms and Edmond Dédé,’ we’re linguistically treating both composers as being equally worthy of attention.”

    But they’re not, so why would we mislead people, as to their relative worth?

    And this guy’s a professor of music and dance?! Yet another tenured, paid liar.

  187. I seem to say this every week, but yeah, this perfesser’s opus may be the stupidest “article” I’ve ever skimmed through.

    Isn’t it obvious to everyone that famous people with uncommon names get called “Beethoven” or “Mozart,” while say, John Adams (the composer, see?) gets the full name treatment, because otherwise WE’D HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT?

    Thus, “As Foucault said…” rather than “As Smith said (who? Huston? Joseph?, etc.)

    Actually, people like “Davóne Tines” and “Igee Dieudonné” would be perfect for the same treatment, except that NO ONE CARES ABOUT THEM. Instead, this idiot inverts cause and effect: If things were fair and everyone was called by their full name, Davóne Tine and Igee Dieudonné would at least have a fair chance. As if the decision to use the first name came first, then fame, rather than the other way around.

    Idiot. Typical Leftist who thinks words determine things (hence PC, microagressions, pronouns, etc.)

    • Replies: @Cortes
    @James O'Meara

    Well said.

    The Hispanic tradition of using two surnames, the paternal followed by the maternal, is often disapplied when the paternal name of someone notable is much more “bog standard” or less distinctive than the maternal.

    Márquez for Gabriel Garcia Marquez
    Lorca for Federico Garcia Lorca

    And recently in Spanish politics

    Zapatero for Rodriguez Zapatero

  188. @JMcG
    @International Jew

    It’s like bundling cable channels. You are forced to pay for BET if you want to watch ESPN. I find it disappointing that many of the voices calling for an end to funding NPR do effectively the same thing in their private lives.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    “You are forced to pay for BET if you want to watch ESPN.”

    There’s a difference?

  189. @Larry, San Francisco
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Well it was Gustav Mahler. Alma was his wife. I wasn't aware that she wrote any music although she inspired a lot. She was the Patty Boyd of her time.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Eagle Eye


    Reading comprehension not so good.

  190. @Buzz Mohawk
    This is the first time I have ever seen Mahler's first name. Because I am a poorly educated hick, I never knew what it was, nor cared, even though I enjoyed his music.

    Even at my alma mater we didn't call him Alma Mahler. These people are full of Shit, first name Bull.

    -- Mohawk

    Replies: @Larry, San Francisco, @Elsewhere, @Buzz Mohawk

    Well, that was stupid.

  191. @utu
    Full names with emphasis on the middle name are for assassins

    John Wilkes Booth
    Lee Harvey Oswald

    and for presidents under an impeachment process

    William Jefferson Clinton

    Replies: @Kolya Krassotkin

    “Full names with emphasis on the middle name are for assasins.”

    Does that also work for Hillary Rodham Clinton?

  192. @International Jew
    @Buffalo Joe

    Don't be too impressed. Harmonization (if that's what you mean by "orchestration") can be taught. A lot of people can even learn to do it, passably, in real time (on a piano or on a guitar).

    If you're kinda interested and you have the time, it's a fun and mind-expanding thing to learn.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    Speaking of people going by first name and learning orchestration, there’s Antony (of Antony & the Johnsons fame, if anyone knows David Tibet & Co.). Many years ago a mutual friend sneered about his first album: “Antony needs to learn that arranging is more that writing the same part for each instrument.”

    Hmm, in more recent and relevant developments, Antony announces “her” new name is “Anohni”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_and_the_Johnsons

  193. @TheUmpteenthGermanOnHere
    Am I supposed to fullname Miles, Duke, Bird and Prez, too?

    Replies: @Gary in Gramercy, @Jonathan Mason

    So why is Count Basie always full named?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    So why is Count Basie always full named?

     

    Since when has William James Basie ever been fully named? Hell, I'm quite read up on 20th-century musicology, and still had to look him up.

    Sun Ra and Ozzy Osbourne have been known to have forgotten their own real names at times. Considering their mental states, that isn't much of a surprise.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

  194. @Wilkey
    Beethoven, Mozart, Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, Bach, Handel, Etc. A big part of the reason these men all go by one name is because that’s what sells tickets and puts butts in the seats. It’s marketing. Every other piece performed during a classical concert is filler. Some of it is fantastic, and some of it is absolute shit. But for whatever reason it doesn’t put butts in the seats.

    Example: my local symphony orchestra is performing Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture later this season. A great piece, by one of the greatest composers ever (and he was gay!) But it’s as overperformed a classical piece as ever there was, and not close to being Tchaikovsky’s best. The below-the-fold pieces are a couple of works by two Latin American composers, and Gabriel Faure’s Requiem - as sublime a musical composition as ever there was, and completely accessible to the modern listener. But it’s not even the headline number. Faure almost never is. Because most listeners have never heard of him, and he doesn’t put butts in the seats. And if Faure - excuse me, Gabriel Faure - can’t put butts in seats, then how is “Burleigh!” going to?

    And if “Faure!” seldom if ever gets his name on the marquee then I can guarantee you that orchestras will never have “Tines!” or “Burleigh!” or “Shaw!” on their advertisements because they would go broke if they did. Because it’s filler, and anyone who has ever been to classical concert knows that a large percentage of filler is crap, especially if it’s by a non-white guy or anyone born after, oh, 1900 (unless it’s a pops concert). Even some of the good classical stuff is hard to sit through, but a lot of the filler is torture.

    And Alma Mahler? I never even knew she wrote music. The only musical number I know in relation to her is *about* her.

    Tom Lehrer: “Oh the loveliest girl in Vienna was Alma, the smartest as well. Once you picked her up on your antenna you’d never be free of her spell...Alma tell us. All modern women are jealous. Tell us which of your magical wands got you Walter and Gustav and Franz.”

    As in Walter Gropius, Gustav Mahler, and Franz Werfel. Apparently her musical talents were so prodigious that Gustav insisted that she stop composing while they were married. So the Tom Lehrer number is all we have to go on.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan, @Reg Cæsar

    Beethoven, Mozart, Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, Bach, Handel

    There are several Bachs, and Mozart’s father and son also composed. But we always seem to know which is being talked about with merely “Bach” or “Mozart”.

  195. @Buffalo Joe
    I think that the greatest talent is the ability to compose music. To be able to hear a melody in your head and then orchestrate it is beyond my grasp. I am referring to clasical music, so I guess that is racist.

    Replies: @International Jew, @J.Ross

    (The video is a huge letdown compared to the music)

  196. @Jonathan Mason
    @TheUmpteenthGermanOnHere

    So why is Count Basie always full named?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    So why is Count Basie always full named?

    Since when has William James Basie ever been fully named? Hell, I’m quite read up on 20th-century musicology, and still had to look him up.

    Sun Ra and Ozzy Osbourne have been known to have forgotten their own real names at times. Considering their mental states, that isn’t much of a surprise.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @Reg Cæsar

    Herman Blount does not quite have the same ring to it.

  197. @International Jew

    Louisville Orchestra praised the ensemble’s performance of a “Beethoven” symphony, and the debut of a composition memorializing Breonna Taylor by “Davóne Tines” and “Igee Dieudonné.”
     
    It wouldn't be so bad if they put the crap after intermission, but they never do.

    Replies: @JMcG, @vinteuil

    It wouldn’t be so bad if they put the crap after intermission, but they never do.

    So true. First, the sugar pill – e.g., an overture by Rossini. Then, before intermission, the medicine.

    In the good old days, that would be, say, Three, or Five, or Six Pieces for Orchestra by Berg, or Schoenberg, or Webern. Annoying, but fairly short.

    These days, you may have to snooze through a good half an hour of some black or female nonentity.

    Then the intermission, & then the Beethoven or Brahms or Tchaikovsky Concerto or Symphony that everybody’s heard a million times before.

    Sigh.

  198. @AndrewR
    Beethoven wasn't born until 1770, 20 years after J.S. Bach died. How were they "peers"? Beethoven also died in 1827, before you allege Mendelssohn to have repopularized Bach.

    Your rush to make your hot, contrarian takes often makes you look like a moron. Focus on quality instead of smartass "comedy" and quantity.

    Replies: @International Jew, @J.Ross, @Lace, @Richard S, @vinteuil, @Alfa158

    AndrewR, the eclipse of J.S. Bach’s reputation for a couple of generations after his death is a completely uncontroversial historical fact, as is the role of Mendelssohn in reviving the interest of the general public in his works.

    You’re the one making a fool of himself, here.

    • Replies: @Lace
    @vinteuil

    I should add to this little odd exchange that, although not widely known to the public for some years, J.S. Bach was well-known to be very influential on both Mozart and Haydn, through Johann Christian Bach and Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach--so as directly as possible short of Bach still being alive. And of course Mozart and Haydn were more or less in between Bach and Beethoven, Haydn born well before Bach's death and Mozart a few years after.

    I had been interested that Mozart is said to have wanted to write fugues like Bach, but it's hard to believe he couldn't if he really wanted to, and I'm sure did write some fugues (although I don't know about them.) Such complex polyphony was not where Mozart and Haydn were ultimately situated musically, and their similarity of musical language is obvious--with neither sound like anything I can think of by J.S. Bach. I know almost nothing of the music of J.C. Bach and C.P.E. Bach. FUGUE was always taught as a course in itself along with Harmony and Counterpoint, part of Counterpoint--and although Ravel is supposed to have 'written a very beautiful one', by then it had long been an exercise, not real music, just as it is with harmony and counterpoint; we don't hear this fugue that Ravel wrote at the Conservatoire.

    Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @Lace

  199. https://www.umass.edu/music/member/christopher-white

    Week 5 Part 1

    Applied chords to vi and ii. Some concerns about dinosaurs. A discussion CW’s favorite bird.

    https://www.huffpost.com/author/cwmwhite-112

    Chris White is an Assistant Professor of Music Theory at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. He teaches and researches the ways we form musical expectations, how music is and is not a language, and how we can apply big data techniques to the analysis of music, things he’s currently writing a book about. He holds a BA from Oberlin College, an MA from Queens College – CUNY, and a PhD from Yale University. He currently lives in Western Massachusetts with his lovely husband, Rob.

    • Replies: @Gary in Gramercy
    @MEH 0910

    I bet his favorite bird is the Tiny Duck.

  200. Hey, when the concert halls re-open, Beethoven will have STILL rolled over!

    See, you Slate author moron. The Whites have their classics, and the Blacks have theirs.

    By the way, Chuck plays all his songs in keys more appropriate for piano, in this case D# major. None of that plain old E major or G major white bread stuff.

  201. @Bardon Kaldian
    Actually- woke idiocy & music aside- this article made me think.

    Why do we always say the first name of prominent females?

    I get it when their husbands were also prominent (Marie Curie, Gerty Cori,...)- but why do we always say Emmy Noether instead of just Noether? There is no other Noether out there. Janice Joplin is because of Scott Joplin.

    Flannery O'Connor? There is an Irish writer with that surname, but ...? Virginia Woolf - OK, there is Leonard. But Willa Cather, and not just Cather? Watson is just Watson, Crick is only Crick, but Rosalind Franklin is always Rosalind Franklin.

    On the other hand, Margaret Thatcher is mostly just- Thatcher.....

    Replies: @Hibernian, @El Dato, @Uncle Jack, @Lace

    Emmy Noether’s father Max was a very prominent mathematician.
    Her brother Fritz was also a mathematician but is remembered now
    mainly for his terrible, and terribly ironic, fate. He left Germany
    in the thirties for the obvious reasons, resettling in the Soviet Union.
    His career flourished there for a few years but he was in due course accused of
    “anti-soviet propaganda” or something, imprisoned, and shot.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Uncle Jack

    I did not realize that about Emmy Noether's family. And Fritz's three children were a chemist, a mathematician, and a statistician. That is one accomplished family!

  202. @vinteuil
    @AndrewR

    AndrewR, the eclipse of J.S. Bach's reputation for a couple of generations after his death is a completely uncontroversial historical fact, as is the role of Mendelssohn in reviving the interest of the general public in his works.

    You're the one making a fool of himself, here.

    Replies: @Lace

    I should add to this little odd exchange that, although not widely known to the public for some years, J.S. Bach was well-known to be very influential on both Mozart and Haydn, through Johann Christian Bach and Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach–so as directly as possible short of Bach still being alive. And of course Mozart and Haydn were more or less in between Bach and Beethoven, Haydn born well before Bach’s death and Mozart a few years after.

    I had been interested that Mozart is said to have wanted to write fugues like Bach, but it’s hard to believe he couldn’t if he really wanted to, and I’m sure did write some fugues (although I don’t know about them.) Such complex polyphony was not where Mozart and Haydn were ultimately situated musically, and their similarity of musical language is obvious–with neither sound like anything I can think of by J.S. Bach. I know almost nothing of the music of J.C. Bach and C.P.E. Bach. FUGUE was always taught as a course in itself along with Harmony and Counterpoint, part of Counterpoint–and although Ravel is supposed to have ‘written a very beautiful one’, by then it had long been an exercise, not real music, just as it is with harmony and counterpoint; we don’t hear this fugue that Ravel wrote at the Conservatoire.

    • Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    @Lace

    "Ravel is supposed to have ‘written a very beautiful one’, by then it had long been an exercise, not real music, just as it is with harmony and counterpoint; we don’t hear this fugue that Ravel wrote at the Conservatoire."

    You're a poseur. The second movement of Ravel's Le Tombeau de Couperin is indeed a beautiful fugue, and if you are a pianist as you claim, you would know it well. It's among the easiest pieces Ravel ever wrote. No wonder you adore a charlatan like Glenn Gould - you don't know anything about the piano.

    Replies: @Lace

    , @Lace
    @Lace

    Since *je suis omar mateen* wrote LOL on this one, I should clarify that I meant 'Fugue' as in a class, in which you're taught how to write fugues, but are not writing original fugues you thought up on your own. This could be Dubois's Traité de contrepoint et de fugue, which follows his Traité d'harmonie théorique et pratique when taught. Boulanger started with the harmony treatise, and these are all exercises you do to learn the basics of tonal music, avoid your parellel 5ths and octaves, and she would say 'That is a beautiful exercise', when it was always a banal nothing whether with root positions, 6 chords, or 6/4 chords, or the modulation chapter, which she said was wrong. She used Dubois's Counterpoint treatise too, but for fugue in particular, she taught it with Andre Gedalge's Traité de la fugue. She was the one who was in Ravel's Fugue Class who said "our fugues were so awful, but Ravel wrote a very beautiful one". I forgot that when Le Tombeau de Couperin includes a Fugue in the original piano version. I much prefer the orchestral transcription, which leave out both the 'Fugue' and the 'Toccata' of the piano original. But that Fugue wouldn't have been the one he wrote at the Conservatoire, where he is known to have been tortured by Dubois, a supreme pedant, and Nadia could be just like him shoving his things up your ass.

    There are lots of fugues written in the 20th century, but those are real pieces, not 'fugue exercises' taught via Dubois or Gedalge. People often wouldn't know that 'Fugue' is taught like Harmony and Counterpoint, which at best would not be the composer's imagination. If a concert Fugue ever came out of a Fugue Class, I never heard of it, although I suppose it's possible. The point was to follow the rules in these classes, not to write 'imaginative fugues' (or any other kind of imaginative, creative music from any of these, for that matter.)

    Pianists often do the Toccata from Le Tombeau by itself, it's virtuosic and showy. I like much better the orchestra with the Prelude, Rigaudon, Forlane and Menuet. But there have been several orchestrations of all 6 pieces by other composers--David Diamond did one, and there's another orchestration of the Fugue and Toccata by Michael Round (?), that Ashkenazy played, and probably some more.

    Balanchine's ballet of Le Tombeau uses the orchestral version, and it's something I've never managed to see, NYCB does not do it with any regularity--in fact, I've never seen it scheduled. I listen to the orchestral version (with Ravel's smaller orchestra than the larger ones that came later) more than I do to the piano version--the 'Fugue' is all right, and the Toccata too, but I prefer the 4 originals for orchestra. Stravinsky wrote many fugues, including one that is very baroque. I don't think I've listened to the Symphony of Psalms all the way through though, which is something I ought to do soon.

    Replies: @Known Fact

  203. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Kronos

    Confirming my opinion: novels are invariably better than movies. In the novel, I vaguely remember this scene as great; here, it is hilarious.

    And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors.

    The same goes for Straw Dogs, 2001 Odyssey, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Little Big Man, ..

    On the other hand, Spielberg's movie is better than Benchley's novel, while other Spielberg's film is as bad as Walker's (Alice?) novel.

    Replies: @Lace, @SunBakedSuburb, @Sollipsist, @Kronos, @dfordoom, @Nicholas Stix

    Don’t forget “The Godfather.” It’s one of the few instances when the film was superior to the book.

    • Agree: Lace
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Kronos

    Kronos, a close second, in my opinion was, "Day of the Jackal." The book was a page turner, the movie, with a cast of non Hollywood stars, was Four Star.

    Replies: @Lace

  204. @dearieme
    Classical Jazz and Jazzish: Scott Joplin is occasionally referred to as Joplin. Fats Waller and Jelly Roll Morton are usually referred to just like that. Duke Ellington and Count Basie are often called simply Ellington or Basie. Benny Goodman usually gets both names. Louis Armstrong was referred to as Louis, or Satch, or ...

    Bix Beiderbecke often gets just Bix; Frankie Trumbauer was often simply "Tram"; Eddie Lang got both names. In case those mean nothing to you, here's a sample
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ue9igC7flI

    Anyway, I fail to see a racial pattern.

    Replies: @Elmer T. Jones

    Bix is great. Have a CD in my car and the tunes just get better with each listen.

    Since the topic is music, I recently enjoyed a recorded book for my commute titled “Everybody’s Doin’ It: Sex, Music, and Dance in New York, 1840-1917” by Dale Cockrell, a history of the evolution of American popular music and dance and its relation to prostitution. Apparently NYC was one big brothel back in the 19th century. As a former Dance Sensation myself it was quite interesting to me. There is a Library of Congress short from 1903 showing a “tough dance” as described in the book. Would like to find more examples of cakewalks and ragtime. We laugh now at how quaint it seems but those folks were really cutting the rug. Scandalous, really.

    • Replies: @fnn
    @Elmer T. Jones

    NYC said to be very negrophobic in the 1830s. The Draft Riots in 1863 seemed to show not much had changed:
    https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2012/01/race-relations-in-early-new-york/


    Chancing one day at the Ordinary at Bunker’s to sit next an English merchant from St. Domingo, in the course of conversation, he mentioned the following circumstances. The son of a Haytian general, high in the favour of Boyer, recently accompanied him to New York, which he came to visit for pleasure and instruction. This young man, though a mulatto, was pleasing in manner, and with more intelligence than is usually to be met with in a country in which education is so defective. At home, he had been accustomed to receive all the deference due to his rank, and when he arrived in New York, it was with high anticipations of the pleasure that awaited him in a city so opulent and enlightened.

    On landing, he inquired for the best hotel, and directed his baggage to be conveyed there. He was rudely refused admittance, and tried several others with similar result. At length he was forced to take up his abode in a miserable lodging-house kept by a Negro woman. The pride of the young Haytian (who, sooth to say, was something of a dandy, and made imposing display of gold chains and brooches,) was sadly galled by this, and the experience of every hour tended farther to confirm the conviction, that, in this country, he was regarded as a degraded being, with whom the meanest white man would hold it disgraceful to associate. In the evening, he went to the theatre, and tendered his money to the box-keeper. It was tossed back to him, with a disdainful intimation, that the place for persons of his colour was the upper gallery.

    On the following morning, my countryman, who had frequently been a guest at the table of his father, paid him a visit. He found the young Haytian in despair. All his dreams of pleasure were gone, and he returned to his native island by the first conveyance, to visit the United States no more.
     
    , @Dissident
    @Elmer T. Jones


    Apparently NYC was one big brothel back in the 19th century. [...]
     
    Not for nothing were big cities denounced as hotbeds of sin.

    We laugh now at how quaint it seems but those folks were really cutting the rug. Scandalous, really.
     
    All the more so when one considers the relatively primitive state of contraception back then. Either there was an awful lot of bastardy* or an awful lot of abortion...

    *In the literal sense, that is. That there was in the figurative sense, would seem to require no mention.

    Incidentally, I take it the book you cited discusses the etymology of the very term jazz itself...

    Replies: @Jack D

  205. @ScarletNumber
    @Reg Cæsar


    My favorite “fullname” (as a name, not as a composer) is Mrs H. H. A. Beach
     
    Nothing beats former Alabama safety Ha’Sean Treshon Clinton-Dix.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Nothing beats former Alabama safety Ha’Sean Treshon Clinton-Dix.

    Please restrain yourself. Nobody wants to hear about Clinton-Dix anymore!

    Ha’Sean Treshon Clinton-Dix = 9/6 cartoon handle.

  206. @Richard of Melbourne
    Geez, it's been less than a week and already music academics are slavishly following the lead of Jeffrey Toobin.

    Replies: @JerseyJeffersonian, @duncsbaby

    What, wankin’ it on Zoom?

  207. @Redneck farmer
    "we can focus more on their music". That isn't going to end well for the people who currently aren't "fullnamed".

    Replies: @Lace

    Especially since it will keep this type from ‘focussing on the music’, which is not their interest at all. Someone down the thread linked to this Chris White’s story on Provincetown ‘gay music’ with how he could hear the ‘gay sound’ more as the str8 tourists left and they approached such phenomena as ‘Tea Dance’ and ‘After Tea Dance’ and ‘campy drag-queen singers’ who aren’t so ‘highbrow’ (but ‘that’s fine’, of course).

    What an asshole he must be. He wants to be able to ‘focus on what’s gay in the dance music of Provincetown’–but because it is gay. He doesn’t want to focus on the music of Beethoven unless he is set aside as ‘sounding like a straight white male’.

    In other words, he doesn’t want to ‘focus on the music’ of anyone, even his ‘my type of gay’ (which he names some–and I don’t think Anderson Cooper is quite of the same species, frankly.) He DOES only want to focus on where whatever music comes from socio-politically liberal or NOT.

    He can’t HEAR. Just feels cute ‘n’ cuddly around ‘music that sounds gay’. That wouldn’t include music by Tchaikowsky, which doesn’t sound gay or straight, but rather masterful, or Ravel, which is glamorous but doesn’t ‘sound gay’, or even Ned Rorem, who at 94, always sounded sort of gay to me, but more whiny–I like one of the sonatas and used to play it–but ‘Mister’ White is not talking about even the Rorem kind of ‘gay sound’.

    God, that article about Provincetown was a chore, but explains everything stupid about the excerpts Steve quoted. Yeah, more like a ‘Michael Musto’ kind of gay, he’s so smarmy it’s unbearable. And somebody like that has the right to talk about Beethoven and then leave out the ‘van’ as well?

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @Lace

    Militant homosexualists took over many an academic department of music many years ago.

    In 1999, American Enterprise Magazine Book Editor Bill Kauffman commissioned me to review University of Houston music professor Howard Pollock’s Aaron Copland biography. Most of it was good. However, Pollock felt obligated to waste a chapter on “queer theory.” [Complete, 1999 review here:
    http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2013/05/american-anthems-music-of-aaron-copland.html ]

    [Brief version I posted at Amazon:]

    While occasionally indulging in tendentious “theory,” University of Houston professor of music Howard Pollack’s ambitious, uneven book is redeemed by the author’s encyclopedic knowledge, informed affection for Copland’s (1900-1990) person and music, and the biographer’s ability, more often than not, to write technically sophisticated musical analyses without obscuring the music.

    Given the identity politics dominating the new musicology, for all its flaws, Aaron Copland: The Life and Work of an Uncommon Man, is a good and valuable book. It contains information from previously unavailable letters and interviews with the late composer’s friends and relations. But why does a tenured, respected professor writing for a trade house adopt the method of cobbling on end chapters dealing with tendentious, identity-political theory that can only detract from the work? And yet, at present, this may be as good as can be hoped for: Some theory as encore, to satisfy the commissars. The alternative is, increasingly, all tin-eared theory, and no music.

    Replies: @Lace

  208. @Miss Laura
    Could someone elaborate on what is Psychomusicology? Who practices it? What does it do?

    Replies: @JerseyJeffersonian

    It generates potential tenure track jobs in academia. Beyond that, it requires no justification. As with much of modern day academia I might, somewhat superfluously, add. In its essence, it is likely comprised of much jargon, expounded upon at length by grifting HIQIs. In common with many theses, much verbiage expended upon a vanishingly small advance of useful knowledge, today’s equivalent of disputations over how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @JerseyJeffersonian


    today’s equivalent of disputations over how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin.
     
    Is that even a question anymore? Isn't the answer however many entities identify as angels who identify as dancing upon whatever they identify as the head of a pin?
  209. @Sparkon

    I would imagine Dede felt Brahms was a much better composer than him.
     
    If you complete the sentence, the correct case of the personal pronoun becomes obvious:

    Brahms was a much better composer than he [was].

    This column offers further proof that UR commenters have poor taste and knowledge of classical music, when it's Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach all the way down, but no mention of Franz Josef Haydn, the greatest composer of them all.

    Replies: @Lace, @Hangnail Hans

    How totally absurd. Are you fucking serious? Of course Haydn was one of the greatest, but deciding on the BIG THREE is not really my thing. But picking out ONE and saying UR commenters don’t have taste in music is pretty dreary, because they hadn’t mentioned Haydn yet (I do in a comment way below), and in a recent Steve thread about ‘White People Have to Realize that Bach, Beethoven…etc., Were White’, Haydn was mentioned all the time. As well he should, but saying he was the greatest of all as if YOU know is quite repellent–as was the pedantry, but you’re obviously a troll.

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @Sparkon
    @Lace

    Yes, I'm serious, and I'm entitled to my own opinion, which happens to be that Franz Josef Haydn was the greatest classical composer of all. I base my opinion about Haydn on the total volume of his work, and his mastery of the classical form. Nevertheless, Haydn constantly gets short shrift in any discussion of the greats of classical music, if not being entirely overlooked, so I reserve the right to speak up on his behalf. If you don't like it, tough darts. When I made my comment, Haydn had not been mentioned here at all.

    Apparently, just as Wagner's music is "better than it sounds," Haydn's music sounds better than it is.

    You call me a troll, but who was it resorting to to F-bombs, all caps, and name-calling? I'd say it's another classic case of the pot calling the teacup black.

    Sailer's previous article you mention was titled, in full:


    "New Yorker: White People Must Start to Realize That Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Verdi, Debussy, and Strauss Were All White"
     
    Somehow Haydn didn't merit mention in Steve's headline. I'd be willing to bet there are few commenters here who have listened to ten, or even five, of Haydn's symphonies, and he wrote over 100.

    Note remarks about classical music by 'guest' #224. He mentions 15 composers, but excludes Haydn.

    As for taste in music among UR commenters, I note his remark about popular music by SunBakedSuburb #153:

    Boomer music, however, is mostly a dud.
     
    What can one say? Only complete ignorance or very bad taste in music could lead to such a ridiculous comment. Given the enduring popularity of music from the '50s, '60s, and '70s, I'd say Boomer music has been anything but a "dud," but maybe SBS was just engaging in some formulaic Boomer bashing.

    Finally, I also reserve the right to point out errors in English. Some people pay big money for an English tutor to learn the fine points of the language, so look at it as a free lesson.

    Replies: @Lace, @anon, @SunBakedSuburb, @Franz Liszt von Raiding

  210. @Dr. Mabuse
    @Old Palo Altan

    The CBC is doing the same thing during their classical music programs. I think I've heard the complete musical output of Fanny Mendelssohn 3 times now. It's not that these musical works are bad; they're just forgettable. And all the time I'm listening to them, I'm thinking that I could be listening to Bach or Beethoven or Mendelssohn instead.

    How many other male composers of the past have been completely forgotten today in favour of the great One-Names mentioned here? I'll bet if you went on an alphabetical tour of Italy, nearly every small town or village would have some native son composer they could point to with pride. Being male didn't save them from being forgotten outside their little home circle. These painfully dredged up female composers are roughly on the same level as the unknown talented local boy who wrote masses for the village church back in the 17th century.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Fox, @guest

    And then there’s all the forgotten pieces by the one-name giants … like one of the best operas I went to in recent years at the Pacific Opera Project was “La Gazette” by Rossini (the Lone Ranger Theme guy). This was only its second production ever in the US in its 200 years of existence.

    • Replies: @Lace
    @Steve Sailer

    I just saw a list of Haydn's operas, and he's certainly a giant--but there were 17, and most of them are never performed. 15 were written for the Eszterhazy family, and were then often performed. I saw one vhs maybe 12 years ago and I can't remember which one it was. Either Orlando Paladino or Amida. Wasn't paying much attention, it was a small Swiss company I never heard of. NYCOpera did some of them back in the 60s, and I remember reading good reviews of them. But the also then-obscure Handel operas managed to catch hold around the same time--and the stiffness of the ones I've seen made them extremely boring to me, but I've never been able to 'get into' much Handel.

    Would recommend some Callas youtubes of Bellini, Rossini, Donizetti, and Puccini back in her 'fat period', some were recorded in Mexico City--when she lost the weight, the high notes could be the most strident, godawful sounds you ever heard, but those earlier ones (early 50s, some with Giovanni Di Stefano) are super-powerful.

    , @Polistra
    @Steve Sailer


    “La Gazette” by Rossini (the Lone Ranger Theme guy)
     
    LOL oh that hurts
    , @Franz Liszt von Raiding
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve, Apparently The grievance mob has now set its sights on the Oft overlooked art form that can’t be so easily faked. An insufferably jejune video appeared recently and a “famous” jazz YouTuber tried to persuade us claiming music theory was “white supremacist”. He said more black and female composers need to be given as examples in theory books. His words “do we need fifty examples of a concept from Bach and zero from a female composer?” This Youtuber (straight white male) Got most of this cancerous virus-drivel from a gay, paper-bag-test-failed modern music theorist who’s “brave” theory amounted to Human surface trait superficialities REALLY matter in composing music.

    Speaking of Talented forgotten composers overshadowed by the greats please listen to:
    Adolf von Henselt
    Sergei Bortkiewicz
    Pancho Vladigerov
    Sergei Lyapunov
    Nikolai Medtner
    Sorabji
    Joseph Marx
    Ferrucio Busoni
    Felix Blumenfeld
    Amadee Mereaux
    Charles Valentin Alkan (Chopins neighbor)
    Anton Rubinstein
    Yes Karl Czerny

  211. @Prester John
    @utu

    Richard Strauss allegedly once said about himself that "I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer."

    This, from the composer of "Death and Transfiguration."

    Replies: @Lace

    But Richard Strauss was a first-rate composer. I just think of seeing and hearing Arabella sung by Kiri TeKanawa around 1994 at the Met, or her Marschallin–with that gorgeous music with the Kavalier–however I do not like that opera, because although they needed a second woman for the music, the Kavalier is supposed to be male, and they never even dress him as anything but a woman with very obvious hips. Very disagreeable. And his own waltz in Der Rosenkavalier is as elegant as any his earlier non-relative Johann Strauss II wrote–Balanchine’s Vienna Waltzes has 3 by Johann II, one by Lehar, and the finale is the ‘first sequence of waltzes from Der Rosenkavalier’. And of course the dancers look far more elegant than even the richest Viennese do at the real balls. Beautiful piece, much better than just hearing them with the orchestra or even in the opera in this case.

  212. @Verymuchalive
    @Steve Sailer

    I tend to think that, if Wagner were alive today, he would be rebranded as Rick Wagner for the American market. Of course, he would never actually be allowed to visit America. The ADL, SPLC et al would see to that.

    Replies: @Single malt

    Frank Zappa’s kid Ahmet wanted to be called “Rick” when he was teased about his name at school.

  213. @MEH 0910
    https://www.umass.edu/music/member/christopher-white

    Week 5 Part 1
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtD5GQ8j2Ko

    Applied chords to vi and ii. Some concerns about dinosaurs. A discussion CW's favorite bird.
     
    https://www.huffpost.com/author/cwmwhite-112

    Chris White is an Assistant Professor of Music Theory at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. He teaches and researches the ways we form musical expectations, how music is and is not a language, and how we can apply big data techniques to the analysis of music, things he's currently writing a book about. He holds a BA from Oberlin College, an MA from Queens College – CUNY, and a PhD from Yale University. He currently lives in Western Massachusetts with his lovely husband, Rob.
     

    Replies: @Gary in Gramercy

    I bet his favorite bird is the Tiny Duck.

  214. That last sentence really delivered the coup de grace.

  215. @obwandiyag
    Beethoven's name was not "van." He was born Ludwig Beethoven. He himself as an adult added the aristocratic particle "van" to his birth name (using the Dutch article "van" instead of the German article "von" in order to confound Germans who knew their aristocracy) so that people would think he was aristocratic, which he wasn't.

    Learn what you're talking about before you talk about it.

    Replies: @Rob McX, @Reg Cæsar

    He was the son of Johann van Beethoven and the grandson of Ludwig van Beethoven.

    • Agree: Lace
  216. @Dr. Mabuse
    @Old Palo Altan

    The CBC is doing the same thing during their classical music programs. I think I've heard the complete musical output of Fanny Mendelssohn 3 times now. It's not that these musical works are bad; they're just forgettable. And all the time I'm listening to them, I'm thinking that I could be listening to Bach or Beethoven or Mendelssohn instead.

    How many other male composers of the past have been completely forgotten today in favour of the great One-Names mentioned here? I'll bet if you went on an alphabetical tour of Italy, nearly every small town or village would have some native son composer they could point to with pride. Being male didn't save them from being forgotten outside their little home circle. These painfully dredged up female composers are roughly on the same level as the unknown talented local boy who wrote masses for the village church back in the 17th century.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Fox, @guest

    That made me think of La Wally by Alfredo Catalani; it’s a great opera, but hardly known.
    It is noteworthy that since 1945 there has been a steep decline in creative production in the world. The “morphic field” that fertilized, inspired and drove on to more understanding and penetration of our world’s reality has been destroyed by the two world cataclysms. While we know little or nothing of many of the composers of the past because they were forgotten amidst a wealth of other great talent and genius, we seem to have no great creative talent that is active today.

  217. … so many German composers … Germans!

    And we all know what that means …

    • Replies: @guest
    @anon

    Tbf, people tend to lump Austrians in with the Germans. If we pretend for a moment Austrians are Japanese (for the sake of fancy), German Supremacy isn’t quite so dominant.

  218. @Elmer T. Jones
    @dearieme

    Bix is great. Have a CD in my car and the tunes just get better with each listen.

    Since the topic is music, I recently enjoyed a recorded book for my commute titled "Everybody's Doin' It: Sex, Music, and Dance in New York, 1840-1917" by Dale Cockrell, a history of the evolution of American popular music and dance and its relation to prostitution. Apparently NYC was one big brothel back in the 19th century. As a former Dance Sensation myself it was quite interesting to me. There is a Library of Congress short from 1903 showing a "tough dance" as described in the book. Would like to find more examples of cakewalks and ragtime. We laugh now at how quaint it seems but those folks were really cutting the rug. Scandalous, really.

    Replies: @fnn, @Dissident

    NYC said to be very negrophobic in the 1830s. The Draft Riots in 1863 seemed to show not much had changed:
    https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2012/01/race-relations-in-early-new-york/

    Chancing one day at the Ordinary at Bunker’s to sit next an English merchant from St. Domingo, in the course of conversation, he mentioned the following circumstances. The son of a Haytian general, high in the favour of Boyer, recently accompanied him to New York, which he came to visit for pleasure and instruction. This young man, though a mulatto, was pleasing in manner, and with more intelligence than is usually to be met with in a country in which education is so defective. At home, he had been accustomed to receive all the deference due to his rank, and when he arrived in New York, it was with high anticipations of the pleasure that awaited him in a city so opulent and enlightened.

    On landing, he inquired for the best hotel, and directed his baggage to be conveyed there. He was rudely refused admittance, and tried several others with similar result. At length he was forced to take up his abode in a miserable lodging-house kept by a Negro woman. The pride of the young Haytian (who, sooth to say, was something of a dandy, and made imposing display of gold chains and brooches,) was sadly galled by this, and the experience of every hour tended farther to confirm the conviction, that, in this country, he was regarded as a degraded being, with whom the meanest white man would hold it disgraceful to associate. In the evening, he went to the theatre, and tendered his money to the box-keeper. It was tossed back to him, with a disdainful intimation, that the place for persons of his colour was the upper gallery.

    On the following morning, my countryman, who had frequently been a guest at the table of his father, paid him a visit. He found the young Haytian in despair. All his dreams of pleasure were gone, and he returned to his native island by the first conveyance, to visit the United States no more.

  219. @Larry, San Francisco
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Well it was Gustav Mahler. Alma was his wife. I wasn't aware that she wrote any music although she inspired a lot. She was the Patty Boyd of her time.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Eagle Eye

    Alma was [Gustav Mahler’s] wife. I wasn’t aware that she wrote any music although she inspired a lot.

    Alma certainly inspired a lot of men, including Gustav Mahler, Walter Gropius (architect, Bauhaus) and Franz Werfel (writer).

    Posthumously, Alma inspired a fun ballad by Tom Lehrer:

    Alma (ballad)

  220. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Kronos

    Confirming my opinion: novels are invariably better than movies. In the novel, I vaguely remember this scene as great; here, it is hilarious.

    And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors.

    The same goes for Straw Dogs, 2001 Odyssey, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Little Big Man, ..

    On the other hand, Spielberg's movie is better than Benchley's novel, while other Spielberg's film is as bad as Walker's (Alice?) novel.

    Replies: @Lace, @SunBakedSuburb, @Sollipsist, @Kronos, @dfordoom, @Nicholas Stix

    Confirming my opinion: novels are invariably better than movies.

    There have been plenty of movies that have been better than the books they were based on. For starters, The Shining. The novel on which Vertigo was based is pretty good, but Hitchcock’s movie is better.

  221. @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    So why is Count Basie always full named?

     

    Since when has William James Basie ever been fully named? Hell, I'm quite read up on 20th-century musicology, and still had to look him up.

    Sun Ra and Ozzy Osbourne have been known to have forgotten their own real names at times. Considering their mental states, that isn't much of a surprise.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    Herman Blount does not quite have the same ring to it.

  222. @Dr. Mabuse
    @Old Palo Altan

    The CBC is doing the same thing during their classical music programs. I think I've heard the complete musical output of Fanny Mendelssohn 3 times now. It's not that these musical works are bad; they're just forgettable. And all the time I'm listening to them, I'm thinking that I could be listening to Bach or Beethoven or Mendelssohn instead.

    How many other male composers of the past have been completely forgotten today in favour of the great One-Names mentioned here? I'll bet if you went on an alphabetical tour of Italy, nearly every small town or village would have some native son composer they could point to with pride. Being male didn't save them from being forgotten outside their little home circle. These painfully dredged up female composers are roughly on the same level as the unknown talented local boy who wrote masses for the village church back in the 17th century.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Fox, @guest

    500 years–give or take–contains such an enormous variety of music. I didn’t know how many great composers there were until I stepped foot in the classical world. Then I was overcome and had to put ones with whom I was familiar in perspective. And I’m not talking “Oh, I heard her name once” perspective.

    The person writing this Slate article has in mind great-greats and lesser-greats. The girlies listed should be at least four layers down from there.

    Say your local boys and incidental wives of more famous composers are together on rank five.

    First rank would be the Immortals. Killer Bs, Mozart, Wagner, Tchaikovsky. Maybe a few more.

    Second rank would be guys the general public has heard all their lives, even if they can’t attach a name to the music. Vivaldi, Chopin, Liszt, Berlioz, Bizet, Debussy, Rossini, Verdi, etc.

    Third rank would be names every fan of classical music knows which didn’t manage to stick in public consciousness. Like Telemann, Scarlatti, Cherubini, Purcell, etc.

    Fourth rank would be guys who either were one-hit wonders (like the Sorcerer’s Apprentice guy) or who churned out quality work without ever gaining special notice in the longview of history. Chiefly the province of academics or classical obsessives. Not because a general audience wouldn’t enjoy them, but because no one is looking. I feel the movie Amadeus consigned Salieri to this level. There’s nothing wrong with him. In fact, I enjoy what I’ve heard. It’s just that no one’s interested .

    Finally, we reach the fifth rank. The rank of Everyone Else. One must dig through literally hundreds of names to get here. Maybe you find a gem. Maybe you find nothing. But there is simply so much high-quality material on the other ranks.

  223. @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    @notsaying

    "I suspect there are more than a few with secret dreams of being referred to by just their last names someday. Why remove that hope?"

    Shostakovich died 1975. He is the last composer I can think of commonly referred to by last name alone. Edit: aww, damn, forgot about Copland and Bernstein.

    Nobody says "Williams" whilst referring to the great film composer John Williams. Even fanciers of minimalist composer Glass call him Philip Glass. Same with John Adams or Steve Reich.

    After Shosty (and Copland and Bernie), can you think of another classical cat called by last name alone? I'd nominate Kapustin whose eight concert etudes are frequently performed and recorded these days.

    Replies: @guest

    I get a little shaky here, because I barely consider these guys classical composers. However, I think Stockhausen, Babbitt, Ligeti, and Hindemith attained one-name status.

    That is, within the world of modernist music. The general public has no idea who they were. The general concert-going public might have heard the names but wouldn’t want to hear the music.

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @Lace
    @guest

    Yes, I think you are correct about most of that. Stockhausen and Boulez are definitely last-namers, and certainly Hindemith--probably not Babbitt, he was as unpleasant as his music was ugly, although that's beside the point. He was so rigid in every possible way. Probably Ligeti and Berio to a certain degree too. Stockhausen is also famous for his remarks about 9/11 which scandalized people: "the biggest work of art there has ever been"--so, in his case, he became famous to even people who never heard one of his works. Berio and his wife, the superhuman-voiced Cathy Berberian, were well-known, and her voice was written for by many other major composers, and I just saw that Steely Dan had a lyric "Even Cathy Berberian knows/There's one roulade she can't sing", from the song 'Your Gold Teeth'. But I suppose, even with her freak-fabulous talent, these names are not so famous to the general public. I already wrote about Glass.

    Choreographers even more so. I can't think of anybody but Martha Graham and George Balanchine or Marius Petipa that are last-namers. Dancers: Nureyev, Baryshnikov, Nijinsky, Pavlova. These names are even well-known to the public insofar as they ever heard of ballet or modern dance at all.

    Replies: @guest, @Polistra

  224. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Kronos

    Confirming my opinion: novels are invariably better than movies. In the novel, I vaguely remember this scene as great; here, it is hilarious.

    And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors.

    The same goes for Straw Dogs, 2001 Odyssey, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Little Big Man, ..

    On the other hand, Spielberg's movie is better than Benchley's novel, while other Spielberg's film is as bad as Walker's (Alice?) novel.

    Replies: @Lace, @SunBakedSuburb, @Sollipsist, @Kronos, @dfordoom, @Nicholas Stix

    Shane. A readable, if childish book. The author, Jack Schaefer, made the eponymous hero a tall, broad-shouldered, dark-haired superman. By contrast, George Stevens made Shane a blonde-haired, very mortal runt.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Nicholas Stix

    Yes, Shane was on my mind too, just I didn't write it. Also, one of the exceptions is The Thin Red Line, and, I guess, most Stephen King based movies (I don't read King's novels). This could be also the case with Crichton's novels like Jurassic Park.

    Of course, with the classics things are different.

    Movies are best in depiction of action, of rendering of atmosphere of a certain age (costumes, manner of speech etc.). But, in most other fields, film language is sorely lacking. For instance, brilliant acting & music are the only tools in description of horror, when Hoskins’ character realizes he’s being driven away by the IRA gang to be executed. His grimaces are the most film language can come up with, while a good novelist could extract pages & pages about the same scene.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P806BdqA0k

    Replies: @Cortes

  225. The fact that music composed by white men dominates the classical repertoire isn’t a relic of racism or sexism. Obviously music has gone in a lot of different directions since the days before rock n’ roll, movies, radio, etc. Most of the talent that would be composing classical music today has been diverted to other musical pursuits.

    But if you look at the most comparable music being still being composed in significant amounts today – which I suppose would be movie scores, some Broadway musicals, and perhaps some religious music – the vast majority of it is written by white men. Of women, Rachel Portman is the only major female composer who comes to mind. The only “person of color” who comes to mind is A.R. Rahman, who won an Oscar for “Slumdog Millionaire” and has written some other works of note.

    But aside from being more Jewish, the major Broadway and movie composers today look a lot like the major classical composers did back in 1800.

  226. @Steve Sailer
    @Dr. Mabuse

    And then there's all the forgotten pieces by the one-name giants ... like one of the best operas I went to in recent years at the Pacific Opera Project was "La Gazette" by Rossini (the Lone Ranger Theme guy). This was only its second production ever in the US in its 200 years of existence.

    Replies: @Lace, @Polistra, @Franz Liszt von Raiding

    I just saw a list of Haydn’s operas, and he’s certainly a giant–but there were 17, and most of them are never performed. 15 were written for the Eszterhazy family, and were then often performed. I saw one vhs maybe 12 years ago and I can’t remember which one it was. Either Orlando Paladino or Amida. Wasn’t paying much attention, it was a small Swiss company I never heard of. NYCOpera did some of them back in the 60s, and I remember reading good reviews of them. But the also then-obscure Handel operas managed to catch hold around the same time–and the stiffness of the ones I’ve seen made them extremely boring to me, but I’ve never been able to ‘get into’ much Handel.

    Would recommend some Callas youtubes of Bellini, Rossini, Donizetti, and Puccini back in her ‘fat period’, some were recorded in Mexico City–when she lost the weight, the high notes could be the most strident, godawful sounds you ever heard, but those earlier ones (early 50s, some with Giovanni Di Stefano) are super-powerful.

    • Thanks: Polistra
  227. @Reg Cæsar
    @nebulafox


    Amongst the others, like many Javanese, Suharto had only one name.
     
    In Mongolia, Dugar Khorloogiin became Choibalsan as a tween monastic seminarian, and kept the name for his career as a Communist leader. Mongolians have patronymics rather than surnames, as do many other peoples (notably in the West, Icelanders), so calling them by their first names is natural. Otherwise it's dad's name, as with Ibn Khaldun, whose own name seems to have been lost.

    However, Choibalsan was apparently a bastard, so he had a matronymic. I'd read he'd tried to force all Mongolians to go mononymic like him. Mongolia is big, by the way:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/montana-in-mongolia-photo-u1-49901.jpg


    Now, for something completely different-- Steve's county has more people than all but seven states:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/blue-states-have-a-smaller-population-than-los-angeles-county-photo-u1-93645.jpg?width=800&height=505


    Texas's most important map:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/texas-in-africa-photo-u1-83635.jpg?width=800&height=533



    (Texas's least important map/Najmniej ważna mapa Teksasu)


    Now here's an Electoral College map to beat all-- shades of 1924!



    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/popular-coffee-shop-chains-by-number-of-locations-photo-u1-96212.jpg?width=800&height=491

    Starbucks: 343
    Dunkin' 185
    Caribou 10

    https://gisgeography.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/US-Election-1924.png

    Coolidge: 382
    Davis: 136
    La Follette: 13


    Density-- the only map on which Rhode Island dwarfs Alaska:

    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/1002050868-photo-u1-39749.jpg?width=800&height=706


    Diversity will be our strength in Iowaq, Guatemaine, and Zimzona:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Countries-fitting-inside-the-United-States-88354.jpg?width=800&height=671

    Replies: @Wilkey, @Dr. Mabuse

    Texas’s most important map:

    One of my college history professors (who, yes, was black) liked to point out that standard Mercator projection maps make Africa look much smaller than it actually is. It was clearly a matter of pride for him: “Look how big MY continent is compared to yours.” I’m not sure if it was ever that popular to point out, or if that was just his obsession, but I don’t seem to hear it mentioned much nowadays. Most of the maps I see are still Mercator maps.

    My pet theory for why pointing out Africa’s real size has never become a popular cause is because people might get the idea that since Africans already have a pretty big damn continent of their own there’s no reason for Europeans to give them their puny little peninsula, as well.

    * If you’re keeping score, Africa (11.73 million square miles) is almost exactly three times as large as Europe (3.93 million square miles).

  228. @Stan Adams
    @Paul Jolliffe

    His Candyman theme isn't bad:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5-AHluVrJw

    Replies: @Black-hole creator

    Occasionally, Glass can be awesome

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
  229. @Buffalo Joe
    Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Known Fact, @Dmon, @Reg Cæsar, @Gary in Gramercy, @Charlotte, @Gordo

    “Mao” just goes to show that Chinese are honorary whites!

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Charlotte

    Charlotte, you get a reply, because the game was White despots. Honorary with a lower case "w." Thank you for the reply.

  230. @guest
    @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    I get a little shaky here, because I barely consider these guys classical composers. However, I think Stockhausen, Babbitt, Ligeti, and Hindemith attained one-name status.

    That is, within the world of modernist music. The general public has no idea who they were. The general concert-going public might have heard the names but wouldn't want to hear the music.

    Replies: @Lace

    Yes, I think you are correct about most of that. Stockhausen and Boulez are definitely last-namers, and certainly Hindemith–probably not Babbitt, he was as unpleasant as his music was ugly, although that’s beside the point. He was so rigid in every possible way. Probably Ligeti and Berio to a certain degree too. Stockhausen is also famous for his remarks about 9/11 which scandalized people: “the biggest work of art there has ever been”–so, in his case, he became famous to even people who never heard one of his works. Berio and his wife, the superhuman-voiced Cathy Berberian, were well-known, and her voice was written for by many other major composers, and I just saw that Steely Dan had a lyric “Even Cathy Berberian knows/There’s one roulade she can’t sing”, from the song ‘Your Gold Teeth’. But I suppose, even with her freak-fabulous talent, these names are not so famous to the general public. I already wrote about Glass.

    Choreographers even more so. I can’t think of anybody but Martha Graham and George Balanchine or Marius Petipa that are last-namers. Dancers: Nureyev, Baryshnikov, Nijinsky, Pavlova. These names are even well-known to the public insofar as they ever heard of ballet or modern dance at all.

    • Replies: @guest
    @Lace

    There is of course Fosse. But his fame stretches beyond dance to filmmaking and general celebrity.

    It occurred to me that in the case of Babbitt you’d have to specify you’re talking about music. Because a lot of people will think of the Sinclair Lewis character.

    , @Polistra
    @Lace


    Stockhausen is also famous for his remarks about 9/11 which scandalized people: “the biggest work of art there has ever been”
     
    Well now that's a fascinating little fact. I've only become acquainted with Stockhausen in this past year and the quote is new to me. Anyway I'd argue that 9/11 is fairly trivial compared with Hiroshima for instance.

    The sense in which 9/11 towers above most everything else is that this nation chose to incinerate trillions of dollars in response, and irrelevantly.

  231. Talking about dead white males, but this Chris White guy is guilty of some dead white prose. Reading the outtakes that Steve presented was like laying my head on a cold anvil and not being able to move for 15 minutes. (Sorry if this point was already made, I’m late as usual to the comments section.)

  232. @Dago Shoes
    So, I guess there go the rest of the great 'old, dead white guys' that are all known by their first names or their surnames only … da Vinci, Shakespeare, Galileo, Einstein, Edison, Bell, Wagner, Plato, Aristotle, Rembrandt, Renoir, Socrates, Gutenberg, Buddha and countless other composers, artists, inventors, etc.

    Replies: @Lace, @Reg Cæsar, @anonymous coward

    Except that you have to know which domain you’re talking about to use ‘Renoir’ as a last-name-only. Painting or film–Pierre-Auguste or Jean.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Lace

    Good point. I'll try to think of some other unfairly deprived mononyms.

    Replies: @Rob McX

  233. @Uncle Jack
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Emmy Noether's father Max was a very prominent mathematician.
    Her brother Fritz was also a mathematician but is remembered now
    mainly for his terrible, and terribly ironic, fate. He left Germany
    in the thirties for the obvious reasons, resettling in the Soviet Union.
    His career flourished there for a few years but he was in due course accused of
    "anti-soviet propaganda" or something, imprisoned, and shot.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    I did not realize that about Emmy Noether’s family. And Fritz’s three children were a chemist, a mathematician, and a statistician. That is one accomplished family!

  234. Anonymous[311] • Disclaimer says:

    “. . .the mononyms of music history has created a hierarchical system that, whether or not you find it useful, can now only be seen as outdated and harmful.” – Chris White

    Just for fun, let’s call all the great ones by their antonyms for a while and see if that appeases this annoying creep.

  235. @Richard of Melbourne
    Geez, it's been less than a week and already music academics are slavishly following the lead of Jeffrey Toobin.

    Replies: @JerseyJeffersonian, @duncsbaby

    Yes, when it comes to mental masturbation, there is no better example than this article.

  236. @Steve Sailer
    @Dr. Mabuse

    And then there's all the forgotten pieces by the one-name giants ... like one of the best operas I went to in recent years at the Pacific Opera Project was "La Gazette" by Rossini (the Lone Ranger Theme guy). This was only its second production ever in the US in its 200 years of existence.

    Replies: @Lace, @Polistra, @Franz Liszt von Raiding

    “La Gazette” by Rossini (the Lone Ranger Theme guy)

    LOL oh that hurts

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
  237. @Calvin Hobbes
    Professor Chris White of course has a Twitter page :

    https://twitter.com/chriswmwhite

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @duncsbaby

    “Y’all,” is the true linguistic sign of a social justice grifter.

  238. @Lace
    @Steve Sailer

    Sometimes already has been. Jerome Robbins did a ballet Glass Pieces, which was thoroughly embarassing, as ugly as the music. You know--metropolitan people walking past each other, always looking ahead and never looking at each other in a 'friendly way' (very 'people talking without speaking, people hearing without listening), as if big cities didn't automatically make you do that. That was trite even then, but I cannot stand Philip Glass--I don't know about now, but when it became big at first, the fans were often using Glass and Steve Reich as their 'serious music' along with their pop, as Joy Division or Blondie, still that way to a certain extent. 'Cool stuff' that is mainly easy-listening 'serious music.' When I was 20, I used to listen to Reich stoned, and thought I was the most au courant person...But I must concede that I think 'Glass' is already known by his last name, as is 'Eno', although people probably say 'Philip Glass' and 'Brian Eno' more than they do Elliott Carter or Pierre Boulez. Just looked up Eno: Full Name is Brian Peter George St John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Polistra

    I’ve seen people refer to cellist yo-yo as simply “ma” but should not the family name come first? I’d be okay with “ma yo-yo” if he could be coaxed to play “my ding-a-ling”..

    • LOL: Lace
  239. @Lace
    @Dago Shoes

    Except that you have to know which domain you're talking about to use 'Renoir' as a last-name-only. Painting or film--Pierre-Auguste or Jean.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Good point. I’ll try to think of some other unfairly deprived mononyms.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @Steve Sailer

    Talking about matching names, are you leading a secret double life?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  240. @Mr. Anon
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Kubrick hired Alex North to write a score for 2001 (North had composed the music for Kubrick's one-and-only big Hollywood movie, Spartacus). North wrote it too, or at least parts of it. But during the editing, Kubrick had started using other music as a place holder - The Blue Danube, Also Sprach Zarathustra, etc. - and eventually decided he liked those better.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekDscvvYOFg

    Replies: @Cortes

    Zarathustra was used as the theme music for the BBC coverage of the Apollo missions. The programmes were fronted by James Burke, one of the presenters of the “Tomorrow’s World” flagship popular science series which promised us a guaranteed future of jet pack and flying car travel, endless expansion into the Cosmos etc.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Cortes

    I watched Burke's Connections when it first appeared on american television. It was an interesting and thought-provoking, if occasionally fanciful, history of technology.

  241. @Lace
    @Redneck farmer

    Especially since it will keep this type from 'focussing on the music', which is not their interest at all. Someone down the thread linked to this Chris White's story on Provincetown 'gay music' with how he could hear the 'gay sound' more as the str8 tourists left and they approached such phenomena as 'Tea Dance' and 'After Tea Dance' and 'campy drag-queen singers' who aren't so 'highbrow' (but 'that's fine', of course).

    What an asshole he must be. He wants to be able to 'focus on what's gay in the dance music of Provincetown'--but because it is gay. He doesn't want to focus on the music of Beethoven unless he is set aside as 'sounding like a straight white male'.

    In other words, he doesn't want to 'focus on the music' of anyone, even his 'my type of gay' (which he names some--and I don't think Anderson Cooper is quite of the same species, frankly.) He DOES only want to focus on where whatever music comes from socio-politically liberal or NOT.

    He can't HEAR. Just feels cute 'n' cuddly around 'music that sounds gay'. That wouldn't include music by Tchaikowsky, which doesn't sound gay or straight, but rather masterful, or Ravel, which is glamorous but doesn't 'sound gay', or even Ned Rorem, who at 94, always sounded sort of gay to me, but more whiny--I like one of the sonatas and used to play it--but 'Mister' White is not talking about even the Rorem kind of 'gay sound'.

    God, that article about Provincetown was a chore, but explains everything stupid about the excerpts Steve quoted. Yeah, more like a 'Michael Musto' kind of gay, he's so smarmy it's unbearable. And somebody like that has the right to talk about Beethoven and then leave out the 'van' as well?

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix

    Militant homosexualists took over many an academic department of music many years ago.

    In 1999, American Enterprise Magazine Book Editor Bill Kauffman commissioned me to review University of Houston music professor Howard Pollock’s Aaron Copland biography. Most of it was good. However, Pollock felt obligated to waste a chapter on “queer theory.” [Complete, 1999 review here:
    http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2013/05/american-anthems-music-of-aaron-copland.html ]

    [Brief version I posted at Amazon:]

    While occasionally indulging in tendentious “theory,” University of Houston professor of music Howard Pollack’s ambitious, uneven book is redeemed by the author’s encyclopedic knowledge, informed affection for Copland’s (1900-1990) person and music, and the biographer’s ability, more often than not, to write technically sophisticated musical analyses without obscuring the music.

    Given the identity politics dominating the new musicology, for all its flaws, Aaron Copland: The Life and Work of an Uncommon Man, is a good and valuable book. It contains information from previously unavailable letters and interviews with the late composer’s friends and relations. But why does a tenured, respected professor writing for a trade house adopt the method of cobbling on end chapters dealing with tendentious, identity-political theory that can only detract from the work? And yet, at present, this may be as good as can be hoped for: Some theory as encore, to satisfy the commissars. The alternative is, increasingly, all tin-eared theory, and no music.

    • Thanks: Dissident
    • Replies: @Lace
    @Nicholas Stix

    Very good comment. You're saying the same thing I was saying. Music is no longer music if it is FIRST identity-politics, whether 'queer theory', 'straight theory', 'feminist theory', or any of these things. The breakdown in music and classical dance is very obvious. That reminds me, I need to look at that commenter with quotes by Misty Copeland, of whom I am so sick. I guess 'white ballets' died this summer after Floyd, and now Misty imagines she'll get all of Diana Vishneva's roles--and she might, in this stupid era. But somebody has her quoted, which hardly comes as even the slightest surprise. Even without George Floyd, she was ubiquitous--I hardly ever watch TV for 40 years, but I used to watch Charlie Rose a lot and she went on and on then. And he was definitely always the flatterer of his guests, unless he did a really hard interview, as with Al-Assad or Putin, and then he had to be at his best. The idiotic ones were as with Lily Tomlin--he told her 'you are a poet'. It was ridiculous, and that movie she was plugging at the time Grandma, which I saw and it was awful. Proved the lesbian stereotype of slovenliness was quite often exactly that.

    I can imagine that such an otherwise excellent book must have been a pain to deal with--although Copland was definitely gay--or at least all the friends through whom I met him just for a few seconds said so--although I never heard any sex details about him, homo or hetero. I met him briefly at a concert either at Juilliard or Alice Tully Hall or Philharmonic Hall in the mid-70s, but I think we didn't even have a chance to converse, sorry to say. I think Robert Helps, who was a fine pianist at the time, and I knew somewhat, may have introduced me. I also worked on one of his pieces that was written at that time, was it called 'Night Thoughts'? I haven't thought of it since. It was fairly easy and short.

    There were a number of Nadia Boulanger's big-name students who were homosexual. Virgil Thomson certainly, and I've never been sure if Ned Rorem actually studied with her or just knew her very well. She thought highly of his songs when young, but told him he should 'pay more attention to the details of his life', which he ignored, as The Paris Diary documents. That was enough of his diaries for me, but it was interesting for the 50s atmosphere and a young ambitious American doing all the cliched American-in-Paris things--and publishing such things way too soon, I might say... I met Thomson a number of times, he was not so pleasant and I've never cared much for his music. Carter I never met but he lived a block away and I saw him often in the neighbourhood. I don't know if I saw his wife and/or son, because I wouldn't recognize them, but I just saw he stayed in that apartment only till 2003. He died a couple of days after Hurricane Sandy, and I had assumed he was still there.

    For me, he is mainly his 'Ballet for Martha', which is one of the perfect pieces of Americana that stands up to anything European. But I admit I know much more about her ballets than I do about his music.

    But, of course, what Chris White is doing to music is going to be what other, more talented musicians have to compromise to as well, and in dance it's already sterilized, except POB and Kirov, who don't pay any attention (yet.) But literature, certainly, and film, all of the Arts now have to be scrutinized through this lens of identity politics. It is perfectly horrifying.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  242. @Bardon Kaldian
    Actually- woke idiocy & music aside- this article made me think.

    Why do we always say the first name of prominent females?

    I get it when their husbands were also prominent (Marie Curie, Gerty Cori,...)- but why do we always say Emmy Noether instead of just Noether? There is no other Noether out there. Janice Joplin is because of Scott Joplin.

    Flannery O'Connor? There is an Irish writer with that surname, but ...? Virginia Woolf - OK, there is Leonard. But Willa Cather, and not just Cather? Watson is just Watson, Crick is only Crick, but Rosalind Franklin is always Rosalind Franklin.

    On the other hand, Margaret Thatcher is mostly just- Thatcher.....

    Replies: @Hibernian, @El Dato, @Uncle Jack, @Lace

    No, there are numerous women writers referred to by their last names, at least they often are: Hellman, Austen, Didion, Sontag, McCullers, Sagan, maybe even Eliot (but not usually probably), Dickinson, Rowling sometimes, Oates, I’m sure I could think of a lot more. I’m sure ‘Cather’ is used often enough.

  243. @Dago Shoes
    So, I guess there go the rest of the great 'old, dead white guys' that are all known by their first names or their surnames only … da Vinci, Shakespeare, Galileo, Einstein, Edison, Bell, Wagner, Plato, Aristotle, Rembrandt, Renoir, Socrates, Gutenberg, Buddha and countless other composers, artists, inventors, etc.

    Replies: @Lace, @Reg Cæsar, @anonymous coward

    their surnames only … da Vinci

    Leonardo was his name. “Da Vinci” was his address. Indeed, that’s one way to tell an expert from a poseur.

    What kind of dago are you, anyway, to make that mistake. And Buffalo Joe misspelled “Mussolini”. Honor your heritage!

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Reg Cæsar

    Reg, when we make a list of resident PIAs, you will simply be known as Reg.

    , @Dago Shoes
    @Reg Cæsar

    I know it was his address … but that's how most folks know of him -- I'll venture that if you asked 100 people what his first name is, maybe 8-10 would know it …

  244. Apparently, the van Beethoven name died out among his siblings’ progeny. Perhaps he had cousins with the name.

  245. @obwandiyag
    Beethoven's name was not "van." He was born Ludwig Beethoven. He himself as an adult added the aristocratic particle "van" to his birth name (using the Dutch article "van" instead of the German article "von" in order to confound Germans who knew their aristocracy) so that people would think he was aristocratic, which he wasn't.

    Learn what you're talking about before you talk about it.

    Replies: @Rob McX, @Reg Cæsar

    Learn what you’re talking about before you talk about it.

    DID YOU KNOW THAT LUDWIG VAN BEETHOVEN’S ROOTS LIE IN MECHELEN?

  246. @Cortes
    @Mr. Anon

    Zarathustra was used as the theme music for the BBC coverage of the Apollo missions. The programmes were fronted by James Burke, one of the presenters of the “Tomorrow’s World” flagship popular science series which promised us a guaranteed future of jet pack and flying car travel, endless expansion into the Cosmos etc.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    I watched Burke’s Connections when it first appeared on american television. It was an interesting and thought-provoking, if occasionally fanciful, history of technology.

  247. @Lace
    @guest

    Yes, I think you are correct about most of that. Stockhausen and Boulez are definitely last-namers, and certainly Hindemith--probably not Babbitt, he was as unpleasant as his music was ugly, although that's beside the point. He was so rigid in every possible way. Probably Ligeti and Berio to a certain degree too. Stockhausen is also famous for his remarks about 9/11 which scandalized people: "the biggest work of art there has ever been"--so, in his case, he became famous to even people who never heard one of his works. Berio and his wife, the superhuman-voiced Cathy Berberian, were well-known, and her voice was written for by many other major composers, and I just saw that Steely Dan had a lyric "Even Cathy Berberian knows/There's one roulade she can't sing", from the song 'Your Gold Teeth'. But I suppose, even with her freak-fabulous talent, these names are not so famous to the general public. I already wrote about Glass.

    Choreographers even more so. I can't think of anybody but Martha Graham and George Balanchine or Marius Petipa that are last-namers. Dancers: Nureyev, Baryshnikov, Nijinsky, Pavlova. These names are even well-known to the public insofar as they ever heard of ballet or modern dance at all.

    Replies: @guest, @Polistra

    There is of course Fosse. But his fame stretches beyond dance to filmmaking and general celebrity.

    It occurred to me that in the case of Babbitt you’d have to specify you’re talking about music. Because a lot of people will think of the Sinclair Lewis character.

    • Agree: Lace
  248. anon[388] • Disclaimer says:

    “There is only one composer I know who measures up to Ludwig van Beethoven and that is Anton Bruckner” – – Richard Wagner

    Somewhat altered quote to conform to the demands of fullnaming. Not bad, actually. I think I should have used a quote about Wolf Mozart.

    Or,

    “There is only one composer I know who measures up to Louie Beethoven and that is Tony Bruckner” — Dick Wagner

    Now that’s egalitarian!

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @anon

    Speaking of egalitarian, in all of the Democrat ads, whenever Sen. Harris is talking about him, etc., he's always "Jobiden" or even just "Joe". You would think that they would want to remind people that he was once the VP (esp. Obama's VP) but the polling must have told them to call him just "Joe".

  249. @Dago Shoes
    So, I guess there go the rest of the great 'old, dead white guys' that are all known by their first names or their surnames only … da Vinci, Shakespeare, Galileo, Einstein, Edison, Bell, Wagner, Plato, Aristotle, Rembrandt, Renoir, Socrates, Gutenberg, Buddha and countless other composers, artists, inventors, etc.

    Replies: @Lace, @Reg Cæsar, @anonymous coward

    Missing the big one.

    Hitler

    There. I said it. Time to dismantle Western European civilization. What’s worse than Hitler?

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    @anonymous coward

    Hitler rises even above that:

    Er ist wieder da. Book 2012, film 2015:

    In Germany at least, no one had to be told who "er" was.

  250. @guest
    @Steve Sailer

    Glass does a lot of movie scores, doesn't he? I assume that's his most known work amongst the general public. Movie composers don't tend to get the one-name treatment.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    Movie scores are anti-music; just enough sound to not make you realize that you’re listening to silence.

    • Disagree: Lace
  251. @Steve Sailer
    @Lace

    Good point. I'll try to think of some other unfairly deprived mononyms.

    Replies: @Rob McX

    Talking about matching names, are you leading a secret double life?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Rob McX

    There are a lot of Sailers on the northern Great Plains. It's a surprisingly common name, but Sailers don't make the newspapers much.

  252. @Rob McX
    @Steve Sailer

    Talking about matching names, are you leading a secret double life?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    There are a lot of Sailers on the northern Great Plains. It’s a surprisingly common name, but Sailers don’t make the newspapers much.

  253. @Dr. DoomNGloom
    A peculiarity of high brow music.

    If I casually refer to Ruth, Gehrig, Mays, or Aaron, imagine how confused the mid brow baseball fan would be. When you think about it, "Barry Bonds" is an insult because no one could ever confuse him with "Bobby Bonds". And they don't even call Eldrick Woods by his real name, just "Tiger", an obvious diss when we speak of "Nicklaus".

    /irony

    If you want to go about life looking for reasons to be offended, you'd have to be pretty dim to fail.

    Replies: @guest

    I enjoy the alliteration of “Barry Bonds.” Sounds like a Marvel superhero.

    Though baseball’s real superhero was a man called “Bo.”

  254. @anon
    ... so many German composers ... Germans!

    And we all know what that means ...

    Replies: @guest

    Tbf, people tend to lump Austrians in with the Germans. If we pretend for a moment Austrians are Japanese (for the sake of fancy), German Supremacy isn’t quite so dominant.

  255. @Nicholas Stix
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Shane. A readable, if childish book. The author, Jack Schaefer, made the eponymous hero a tall, broad-shouldered, dark-haired superman. By contrast, George Stevens made Shane a blonde-haired, very mortal runt.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, Shane was on my mind too, just I didn’t write it. Also, one of the exceptions is The Thin Red Line, and, I guess, most Stephen King based movies (I don’t read King’s novels). This could be also the case with Crichton’s novels like Jurassic Park.

    Of course, with the classics things are different.

    Movies are best in depiction of action, of rendering of atmosphere of a certain age (costumes, manner of speech etc.). But, in most other fields, film language is sorely lacking. For instance, brilliant acting & music are the only tools in description of horror, when Hoskins’ character realizes he’s being driven away by the IRA gang to be executed. His grimaces are the most film language can come up with, while a good novelist could extract pages & pages about the same scene.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Bardon Kaldian

    That ending is wonderful, not least for the riveting introduction of Brosnan as the smiling assassin. Mirren is great also. The music and focus on Hoskins shouldn’t detract from the others.

  256. @Lace
    @guest

    Yes, I think you are correct about most of that. Stockhausen and Boulez are definitely last-namers, and certainly Hindemith--probably not Babbitt, he was as unpleasant as his music was ugly, although that's beside the point. He was so rigid in every possible way. Probably Ligeti and Berio to a certain degree too. Stockhausen is also famous for his remarks about 9/11 which scandalized people: "the biggest work of art there has ever been"--so, in his case, he became famous to even people who never heard one of his works. Berio and his wife, the superhuman-voiced Cathy Berberian, were well-known, and her voice was written for by many other major composers, and I just saw that Steely Dan had a lyric "Even Cathy Berberian knows/There's one roulade she can't sing", from the song 'Your Gold Teeth'. But I suppose, even with her freak-fabulous talent, these names are not so famous to the general public. I already wrote about Glass.

    Choreographers even more so. I can't think of anybody but Martha Graham and George Balanchine or Marius Petipa that are last-namers. Dancers: Nureyev, Baryshnikov, Nijinsky, Pavlova. These names are even well-known to the public insofar as they ever heard of ballet or modern dance at all.

    Replies: @guest, @Polistra

    Stockhausen is also famous for his remarks about 9/11 which scandalized people: “the biggest work of art there has ever been”

    Well now that’s a fascinating little fact. I’ve only become acquainted with Stockhausen in this past year and the quote is new to me. Anyway I’d argue that 9/11 is fairly trivial compared with Hiroshima for instance.

    The sense in which 9/11 towers above most everything else is that this nation chose to incinerate trillions of dollars in response, and irrelevantly.

  257. @Steve Sailer
    @Dr. Mabuse

    And then there's all the forgotten pieces by the one-name giants ... like one of the best operas I went to in recent years at the Pacific Opera Project was "La Gazette" by Rossini (the Lone Ranger Theme guy). This was only its second production ever in the US in its 200 years of existence.

    Replies: @Lace, @Polistra, @Franz Liszt von Raiding

    Steve, Apparently The grievance mob has now set its sights on the Oft overlooked art form that can’t be so easily faked. An insufferably jejune video appeared recently and a “famous” jazz YouTuber tried to persuade us claiming music theory was “white supremacist”. He said more black and female composers need to be given as examples in theory books. His words “do we need fifty examples of a concept from Bach and zero from a female composer?” This Youtuber (straight white male) Got most of this cancerous virus-drivel from a gay, paper-bag-test-failed modern music theorist who’s “brave” theory amounted to Human surface trait superficialities REALLY matter in composing music.

    Speaking of Talented forgotten composers overshadowed by the greats please listen to:
    Adolf von Henselt
    Sergei Bortkiewicz
    Pancho Vladigerov
    Sergei Lyapunov
    Nikolai Medtner
    Sorabji
    Joseph Marx
    Ferrucio Busoni
    Felix Blumenfeld
    Amadee Mereaux
    Charles Valentin Alkan (Chopins neighbor)
    Anton Rubinstein
    Yes Karl Czerny

  258. @HammerJack
    Never heard of Prince, Rihanna, Beyonce, Usher, Tupac, Nelly,Seal, Ludacris, etc

    Replies: @Gary in Gramercy, @reactionry, @M_Young

    Was slow to post this and note that you later mentioned Aubrey* “DRAKE” Graham. As Tiny Duck (and Whiskey) would surely agree, that rapper has been the object of the affections of scads of white women. T.D.(who’s probably “on the spectrum”) would also likely feel some kinship with the awesomely named Ludwig Von Drake – a polymath and composer of the “The Spectrum Song.”

    The above suggests that the (feathered) Drake, like Vladimir Nabokov, might have experienced synesthesia.

  259. @anonymous coward
    @Dago Shoes

    Missing the big one.


    Hitler
     
    There. I said it. Time to dismantle Western European civilization. What's worse than Hitler?

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

    Hitler rises even above that:

    Er ist wieder da. Book 2012, film 2015:

    In Germany at least, no one had to be told who “er” was.

  260. @Sparkon

    I would imagine Dede felt Brahms was a much better composer than him.
     
    If you complete the sentence, the correct case of the personal pronoun becomes obvious:

    Brahms was a much better composer than he [was].

    This column offers further proof that UR commenters have poor taste and knowledge of classical music, when it's Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach all the way down, but no mention of Franz Josef Haydn, the greatest composer of them all.

    Replies: @Lace, @Hangnail Hans

    Haydn is unlistenable tripe. Only stupid people like him.

    • Disagree: Lace
  261. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Kronos

    Clockwork Orange (1971) is Kubrick's weakest film. By 1970, 2001 was not proving to be the commercial or critical hit K. anticipated; he looked for a snapback, something he could film cheap and quick. Something to capitalize on the youth-in-revolt culture of the period. Because it is Kubrick it is still interesting and better than anything Tinseltown has produced in the last 12 months (low standard). Malcolm McDowell's performance is the best thing about it.

    Replies: @MEH 0910

    Why Kubrick decided to make A Clockwork Orange (1971) | MAKING FILM

    A Clockwork Orange is perhaps Stanley Kubrick’s most controversial film and one “highly praised” by the likes of Fellini, Bunuel, and Kurosawa as well as “educational, scientific, political, religious and even law-enforcement groups,” but it was really supposed to be a small film sandwiched between two epics— those being the monumental 2001: A Space Odyssey and Kubrick’s white whale… Napoleon.

  262. @Dumbo
    Who writes this things? Who reads this things?
    Such dumb articles might as well be written and read by robots.
    They are pointless and a waste of time.
    I have no idea how Slate makes any money, if it does.

    Replies: @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @John Achterhof, @El Dato, @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Who writes this things? Who reads this things?
    Such dumb articles might as well be written and read by robots.
    They are pointless and a waste of time.
    I have no idea how Slate makes any money, if it does.

    If your worldview has been significantly influenced by neoliberal woke ideology – probably by way of post-secondary education in our nation’s Colleges and Universities – these pieces offer minor daily reinforcements of your worldview. I imagine that it’s the analog of Mexican peasants perceiving images of Jesus or Mary in the peculiar shading of a tortilla.

    It’s also an act of leftist aggression against a field of endeavor largely previously immune from woke insanity due to the general disinterest of blacks, Hispanics, and the rest in Classical Music. The message is that there is no place to which to escape, and nothing will be permitted to be enjoyed for its own sake.

  263. @Lace
    @Sparkon

    How totally absurd. Are you fucking serious? Of course Haydn was one of the greatest, but deciding on the BIG THREE is not really my thing. But picking out ONE and saying UR commenters don't have taste in music is pretty dreary, because they hadn't mentioned Haydn yet (I do in a comment way below), and in a recent Steve thread about 'White People Have to Realize that Bach, Beethoven...etc., Were White', Haydn was mentioned all the time. As well he should, but saying he was the greatest of all as if YOU know is quite repellent--as was the pedantry, but you're obviously a troll.

    Replies: @Sparkon

    Yes, I’m serious, and I’m entitled to my own opinion, which happens to be that Franz Josef Haydn was the greatest classical composer of all. I base my opinion about Haydn on the total volume of his work, and his mastery of the classical form. Nevertheless, Haydn constantly gets short shrift in any discussion of the greats of classical music, if not being entirely overlooked, so I reserve the right to speak up on his behalf. If you don’t like it, tough darts. When I made my comment, Haydn had not been mentioned here at all.

    Apparently, just as Wagner’s music is “better than it sounds,” Haydn’s music sounds better than it is.

    You call me a troll, but who was it resorting to to F-bombs, all caps, and name-calling? I’d say it’s another classic case of the pot calling the teacup black.

    Sailer’s previous article you mention was titled, in full:

    “New Yorker: White People Must Start to Realize That Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Verdi, Debussy, and Strauss Were All White”

    Somehow Haydn didn’t merit mention in Steve’s headline. I’d be willing to bet there are few commenters here who have listened to ten, or even five, of Haydn’s symphonies, and he wrote over 100.

    Note remarks about classical music by ‘guest’ #224. He mentions 15 composers, but excludes Haydn.

    As for taste in music among UR commenters, I note his remark about popular music by SunBakedSuburb #153:

    Boomer music, however, is mostly a dud.

    What can one say? Only complete ignorance or very bad taste in music could lead to such a ridiculous comment. Given the enduring popularity of music from the ’50s, ’60s, and ’70s, I’d say Boomer music has been anything but a “dud,” but maybe SBS was just engaging in some formulaic Boomer bashing.

    Finally, I also reserve the right to point out errors in English. Some people pay big money for an English tutor to learn the fine points of the language, so look at it as a free lesson.

    • Replies: @Lace
    @Sparkon


    Apparently, just as Wagner’s music is “better than it sounds,” Haydn’s music sounds better than it is.
     
    Who wrote that rubbish?

    Yes, you have a right to your opinion that Haydn was the greatest, but you presented it as FACT in your first comment. I noticed later that I had already written about Haydn in a post, but that it had not been released yet. I wrote a number of posts about Haydn and Mozart, Bach, Beethoven later. So maybe Steve didn't put Haydn in the list on that New Yorker thread, but if you read that thread you'd see that I and a number of others talk about Haydn extensively--and always favourably.

    I'm probably just allergic to 'the greatest' in any domain. I'd probably choose Bach if I had to choose a single greatest, but I don't have to choose. I don't mind 'my favourite composer' or 'my favourite actress', etc., but hype such as 'greatest city in the world' is boring (even if I live in what is supposedly just that, or was.) I have favourites, but am not an extreme fan of anybody or anything--it always feels like putting myself into a lowly position, which I do not find pleasant.

    Finally, I also reserve the right to point out errors in English. Some people pay big money for an English tutor to learn the fine points of the language, so look at it as a free lesson.
     
    No thank you. It's your fucking social skills I so greatly admire and envy.

    Replies: @anon

    , @anon
    @Sparkon

    Opinions.

    Stravinsky ranked Prokofiev the second greatest Russian composer, after himself, and despised Shostakovich. He called Bartok "the great musician," but they disagreed vigorously on aesthetics.

    Tchaikovsky disliked Brahms' music and the latter was cold to Tchaikovsky's music, but they got along passably as drinking buddies.

    Wagner scoffed at Brahms and dissed him repeatedly.

    Brahms praised Wagner's Meistersaenger but loathed his influence on German youth. Brahms called Bruckner's music "symphonic boa constrictors." Later he changed his mind . . . a little.

    Beethoven wrote to Rossini, "I like your opera. I think I shall set it to music."

    Bartok is reported to have said that there may be composers who don't believe in God, but they all believe in Bach.

    Bach was of the opinion that anybody could do what he did if they were willing to work hard enough. He liked muscatel.

    The list goes on. But in response to your post . . .

    Prokofiev "adored" Haydn. Prokofiev's "Classical Symphony" is his idea of what Haydn would have written if he had lived in the 20th century.

    The pianist Richter preferred Haydn to Mozart.

    The pianist Richter was dismissed by the pianist Yudina as a pianist "for Rachmaninoff."

    The pianists Van Clyburn and Arthur Rubinstein were both brought to tears upon their respective first hearings of the pianist Richter.

    So what are opinions worth - even the supposedly expert ones?

    There is always controversy about who was the greatest composer ever. I don't know if Louie Beethoven wrote the greatest music of all time, but I do know it was the greatest music ever written by a deaf guy.

    Oh, and Gustav Mahler's mother thought her son's friend Hans Rott was the better composer of the two.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Sparkon

    "SBS was just engaging in some formulaic Boomer bashing"

    Just engaging in typically formulaic smartassery. There's much to love about Boomer music.

    , @Franz Liszt von Raiding
    @Sparkon

    The Greatest composer Ever wrote the most often programmed work in recitals to this day Ie His Sonata. In fact he invented the whole idea of a single performer recital and named the event a “recital”. He was the first to go on a concert tour and raise awareness for the greatness of Beethoven by holding a charity concert series to pay for a marble statue of the “banger from Bonn”. At his Paris debut at age 18 he ***brought the house down*** with his own arrangement of William Tell overture by Rossini which mAny in attendance thought was more sonorous than an entire orchestras performance of the very same. I’ll stop now. Read Alan Walker’s three volume set about his life to learn more. Franz Liszt

  264. @Lace
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, once in a while the movie actually improves upon the novel, as The Shining is infinitely better IMO than Stephen King's book (I mean mainly the corny, unscary ending of the book), although he was furious and made his own TV movie, already forgotten mostly. J.B. Priestley's novel Lost Empires was made into a marvelous Masterpiece Theater mini-series, and good as that novel is--with details not possible to include in the teleplay--the mini-series is better, but was probably too arcane to become popular (WWI Music Hall). I'm sure Gone With the Wind is better than the novel, which I've never been able to make myself read. Showboat is much better as a musical play or movie than the Edna Ferber book was (I did read that as a child.)

    Probably a few others, but of course, you're right for the most part, although I thought the first Far From the Madding Crowd was at least equal to the Hardy classic.

    On a side note, it's even more frequent that B'way shows are much worse when Hollywoodized.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous

    I think the works of certain novelists lend themselves readily to be filmed while others are essentially un-filmable. I put in the unfilmable category Tom Wolfe (The Right Stuff was an OK movie but not nearly as good as the book. Bonfire of the Vanities was a great novel but the movie fell completely flat. No one has even tried to film his late novels.) Ditto Philip Roth, although I thought that the recent Plot Against America mini-series was very well done (as a work of art, putting its politics aside).

    • Replies: @Lace
    @Jack D

    I would agree with that. Faulkner doesn't seem to be possible to translate to cinema (the ones I've seen never passed muster), and even the one film of Proust that was praised Le Temps retrouvé didn't work well even with such a cast as it had in my opinion. There's a film from the mid/late 60s of Joyce's Ulysses, although I'm pretty sure it's not really possible to do--there's a grammar of film, but Joyce's linguistic aims were hardly that. Definitely agree about Bonfire of the Vanities, although I'm not sure it had to be impossible--the thing that came out certainly was bad. McCullers did pretty well in the theater and on film--The Member of the Wedding (both) and Reflections in a Golden Eye, which still stands up surprisingly well. The very worst film version of a novel I've ever seen is David Rocksavage's Other Voices, Other Rooms, which is a ghastly travesty, and more or less completely ignores Capote's novel.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan, @Bardon Kaldian

  265. @anon
    "There is only one composer I know who measures up to Ludwig van Beethoven and that is Anton Bruckner" - - Richard Wagner

    Somewhat altered quote to conform to the demands of fullnaming. Not bad, actually. I think I should have used a quote about Wolf Mozart.

    Or,

    "There is only one composer I know who measures up to Louie Beethoven and that is Tony Bruckner" -- Dick Wagner

    Now that's egalitarian!

    Replies: @Jack D

    Speaking of egalitarian, in all of the Democrat ads, whenever Sen. Harris is talking about him, etc., he’s always “Jobiden” or even just “Joe”. You would think that they would want to remind people that he was once the VP (esp. Obama’s VP) but the polling must have told them to call him just “Joe”.

  266. @gent
    @prosa123

    It is notable the opposite happened with Hillary Clinton. While she went by Hillary in her 2008 attempt, by 2016 she had integrated her husband's identity fully and was simply "Clinton." The same applies to Thatcher and Merkel.

    Replies: @Dissident

    It is notable the opposite happened with Hillary Clinton. While she went by Hillary in her 2008 attempt, by 2016 she had integrated her husband’s identity fully and was simply “Clinton.”

    Remember when it was Hillary Rodham-Clinton? I always wondered why the former First Lady dropped the hyphenation, and how, given how strongly the trend has been in the opposite direction, she got away with it as easily as she seems to have done.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Dissident

    Hillary has not a genuine bone in her entire body. If she dropped Rodham, it was because they tested the polling and she polled better without it. As I mentioned before, VP Biden is now "Jobiden" for the same reason.

    Replies: @Dissident

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Dissident


    I always wondered why the former First Lady dropped the hyphenation...
     
    Ask your friendly neighborhood focus group.

    Kim Ode of the Minneapolis Star Tribune did a column, in early 2001 I think, about married women keeping their maiden names. I researching it, she was stunned to find out that as late as the opening of the 21st century, not even 10% did. The other 90% happily went with their husbands'.

    Replies: @Dissident

  267. When we say, “Tonight, you’ll be hearing symphonies by Johannes Brahms and Edmond Dédé,” we’re linguistically treating both composers as being equally worthy of attention.

    But they’re not.

  268. @Reg Cæsar
    @nebulafox


    Amongst the others, like many Javanese, Suharto had only one name.
     
    In Mongolia, Dugar Khorloogiin became Choibalsan as a tween monastic seminarian, and kept the name for his career as a Communist leader. Mongolians have patronymics rather than surnames, as do many other peoples (notably in the West, Icelanders), so calling them by their first names is natural. Otherwise it's dad's name, as with Ibn Khaldun, whose own name seems to have been lost.

    However, Choibalsan was apparently a bastard, so he had a matronymic. I'd read he'd tried to force all Mongolians to go mononymic like him. Mongolia is big, by the way:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/montana-in-mongolia-photo-u1-49901.jpg


    Now, for something completely different-- Steve's county has more people than all but seven states:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/blue-states-have-a-smaller-population-than-los-angeles-county-photo-u1-93645.jpg?width=800&height=505


    Texas's most important map:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/texas-in-africa-photo-u1-83635.jpg?width=800&height=533



    (Texas's least important map/Najmniej ważna mapa Teksasu)


    Now here's an Electoral College map to beat all-- shades of 1924!



    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/popular-coffee-shop-chains-by-number-of-locations-photo-u1-96212.jpg?width=800&height=491

    Starbucks: 343
    Dunkin' 185
    Caribou 10

    https://gisgeography.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/US-Election-1924.png

    Coolidge: 382
    Davis: 136
    La Follette: 13


    Density-- the only map on which Rhode Island dwarfs Alaska:

    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/1002050868-photo-u1-39749.jpg?width=800&height=706


    Diversity will be our strength in Iowaq, Guatemaine, and Zimzona:


    https://www.exploredplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Countries-fitting-inside-the-United-States-88354.jpg?width=800&height=671

    Replies: @Wilkey, @Dr. Mabuse

    Texas’s most important map? I beg to differ! Surely that was SCTV’s “What Fits Into Russia” sketch, where “the long-horned, anti-Leninists of Texas” are put in their place.

  269. Beethoven, ironically, was thought to be part “black” since 1907. Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, a mixed race British composer thought so.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/sep/07/beethoven-was-black-why-the-radical-idea-still-has-power-today

    Exactly 80 years after Beethoven’s death, in 1907, the British composer Samuel Coleridge-Taylor began speculating that Beethoven was black. Colderidge-Taylor was mixed race – with a white English mother and a Sierra Leonean father – and said that he couldn’t help noticing remarkable likenesses between his own facial features and images of Beethoven’s. Having recently returned from the segregated US, Coleridge-Taylor projected his experiences there onto the German composer. “If the greatest of all musicians were alive today, he would find it impossible to obtain hotel accommodation in certain American cities.”

    This possibility was brought up again in the 1960s during the civil rights era.

    His words would prove prophetic. During the 1960s, the mantra “Beethoven was black” became part of the struggle for civil rights. By then Coleridge-Taylor had been dead for 50 years and was all but forgotten, but as campaigner Stokely Carmichael raged against the deeply ingrained assumption that white European culture was inherently superior to black culture, the baton was passed. “Beethoven was as black as you and I,” he told a mainly black audience in Seattle, “but they don’t tell us that.” A few years earlier, Malcolm X had given voice to that same idea when he told an interviewer that Beethoven’s father had been “one of the blackamoors that hired themselves out in Europe as professional soldiers”.

  270. @Dissident
    @gent


    It is notable the opposite happened with Hillary Clinton. While she went by Hillary in her 2008 attempt, by 2016 she had integrated her husband’s identity fully and was simply “Clinton.”
     
    Remember when it was Hillary Rodham-Clinton? I always wondered why the former First Lady dropped the hyphenation, and how, given how strongly the trend has been in the opposite direction, she got away with it as easily as she seems to have done.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Reg Cæsar

    Hillary has not a genuine bone in her entire body. If she dropped Rodham, it was because they tested the polling and she polled better without it. As I mentioned before, VP Biden is now “Jobiden” for the same reason.

    • Agree: jim jones
    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Jack D


    Hillary has not a genuine bone in her entire body.
     
    Remember when she cried (on-camera) while speaking at some event during (If I recall correctly) the 2008 primary season? And how people debated whether said display was contrived or not?

    Not that honesty and sincerity are traits that politicians are known to exemplify. And as clearly preferable as the President is to me over the alternative, to hear blindly partisan pro-Trump zealots harangue HRC, Biden or just about anyone else, while acting as if their man is above reproach, has always been a bit much to take.

    Replies: @Hibernian

  271. For Bach there’s usually a first name. the reason is instructive.

  272. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Bardon Kaldian

    "And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors"

    I recently found newspaper adverts from 1973 for a double-bill of Clockwork Orange (1971) and Deliverance (1972). Extraordinary, although not a good choice for date night if one desires coitus at the end of the evening. Boomers were spoiled when it came to culture, particularly films. The 60s and 70s were celluloid golden years. Boomer music, however, is mostly a dud. The Beatles were good, though Lennon without McCartney is Yoko Ono. And how about Ringo, the gypsy goober hitting the skins? He's no Danny Carey. The worst offender is Eric Clapton. The only thing more sonically boring than blue-eye blues with an excremental Clapton solo over it is black blues.

    Replies: @Dissident, @Jack D

    although not a good choice for date night if one desires coitus at the end of the evening.

    Ah, yes, the incidental, gratutious boast of fornication. Seems it’s never too long before it surfaces in the comments here…

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Dissident

    "gratuitous boast of fornication"

    I was four years old when Warner Bros. issued its re-release of the two films. Not old enough for fornication or Clockwork Orange. However. Please forgive my descent into tawdry tomfoolery.

    Replies: @Dissident

  273. @Buffalo Joe
    Next up an article on how White despots are recognized by just their last name, Hitler, Stalin, Mussalini, but you have to say Idi Amin.

    Replies: @Henry's Cat, @Known Fact, @Dmon, @Reg Cæsar, @Gary in Gramercy, @Charlotte, @Gordo

    Mobuto

  274. @Old Palo Altan
    @Wilkey

    Alma was played on BBC 3 only last week. This was the lunchtime concert from Wigmore Hall. I caught it while driving along to my bookbinder who, as usual, was closed.

    I heard the announcer tell us that we were about to get two songs by Gustav and then a few more by Alma. We had recounted to us, dutifully, the story about Gustav shutting off her creative juices, not once, but twice.

    So how was she? I can't say, having been unable to get through even the first of Gustav's inevitable train wrecks.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @vinteuil

    So how was she [Alma Mahler]? I can’t say, having been unable to get through even the first of Gustav’s inevitable train wrecks.

    Well, suffice it to say that you wouldn’t have liked her stuff. Think the harmonic language of the Rückert-Lieder, or of Zemlinsky, with never any glimpse of a tune.

    Still, very competent – you might be surprised. Good enough, at any rate, to add some color to the legend that the musical world lost a great female voice because of Gustav’s sexism…

    Except that it’s far from clear that Gustav ever forbade her to compose, and it’s very clear that in the last couple of years of their nine year marriage he positively encouraged her career as a composer.

    Anyway, YouTube has a collection of her surviving songs in a good orchestral arrangement by a certain Julian Reynolds. Worth a listen, if only to be able to say that you’ve been there & done that.

    • Replies: @guest
    @vinteuil

    Vaguely reminiscent of Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald. He rather selfishly preempted her from writing about certain life experiences because he was using them for his novel Tender Is the Night. There has been a great wringing of hands over “what might have been” regarding her throttled potential.

    I’ve read snippets of her work, and it’s it horrible, I suppose. But it was also weird stream-of-consciousness type stuff for which I don’t care.

    , @Old Palo Altan
    @vinteuil

    Not impressed with her creative talent (no evidence of any) but I agree that her work is very well constructed.

    You must be referring to the late Zemlinsky: I listened to some of his early song cycles and found them both tuneful and charming.

  275. @Jack D
    @Lace

    I think the works of certain novelists lend themselves readily to be filmed while others are essentially un-filmable. I put in the unfilmable category Tom Wolfe (The Right Stuff was an OK movie but not nearly as good as the book. Bonfire of the Vanities was a great novel but the movie fell completely flat. No one has even tried to film his late novels.) Ditto Philip Roth, although I thought that the recent Plot Against America mini-series was very well done (as a work of art, putting its politics aside).

    Replies: @Lace

    I would agree with that. Faulkner doesn’t seem to be possible to translate to cinema (the ones I’ve seen never passed muster), and even the one film of Proust that was praised Le Temps retrouvé didn’t work well even with such a cast as it had in my opinion. There’s a film from the mid/late 60s of Joyce’s Ulysses, although I’m pretty sure it’s not really possible to do–there’s a grammar of film, but Joyce’s linguistic aims were hardly that. Definitely agree about Bonfire of the Vanities, although I’m not sure it had to be impossible–the thing that came out certainly was bad. McCullers did pretty well in the theater and on film–The Member of the Wedding (both) and Reflections in a Golden Eye, which still stands up surprisingly well. The very worst film version of a novel I’ve ever seen is David Rocksavage’s Other Voices, Other Rooms, which is a ghastly travesty, and more or less completely ignores Capote’s novel.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    @Lace

    If you think that is the worst film version of a novel then you haven't seen Hollywood's version of Waugh's The Loved One.

    Only the title has any relationship of any kind to the book. I only hope that Waugh was paid well for the privilege of seeing one of his slighter, if still very funny and beautifully written, novellas so comprehensively trashed.

    Replies: @Dube

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Lace

    Let's not ignore instances when both the novel & the movie are simply horrible, the most famous example being Battlefield Earth.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUDtKzgZPLw

  276. @Old Palo Altan
    @Wilkey

    Alma was played on BBC 3 only last week. This was the lunchtime concert from Wigmore Hall. I caught it while driving along to my bookbinder who, as usual, was closed.

    I heard the announcer tell us that we were about to get two songs by Gustav and then a few more by Alma. We had recounted to us, dutifully, the story about Gustav shutting off her creative juices, not once, but twice.

    So how was she? I can't say, having been unable to get through even the first of Gustav's inevitable train wrecks.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @vinteuil

    Oh, and…just for the record…I can’t get enough of the songs of Gustav Mahler.

    Fischer-Dieskau’s 1954 *Wayfaring Youth* with Furtwängler…

    Kathleen Ferrier’s 1949 *Kindertotenlieder* with Bruno Walter…

    If only I could be 13 again, ready to discover such wonders, for the first time.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    @vinteuil

    Tried both last night. Love Fischer-Dieskau, Furtwängler (and was interested to read that he liked Mahler's songs but not his symphonies) and Ferrier, but don't tend to hear much Walter (I was impressed by his quality here however).

    But still ... well, you know what I am going to say, so instead I'll just remark that I'm glad somebody likes him.

    And 13! So true, and just wait till that is 60 years in your past if you think you have nostalgic regrets now.

    Replies: @vinteuil

  277. @Sparkon
    @Lace

    Yes, I'm serious, and I'm entitled to my own opinion, which happens to be that Franz Josef Haydn was the greatest classical composer of all. I base my opinion about Haydn on the total volume of his work, and his mastery of the classical form. Nevertheless, Haydn constantly gets short shrift in any discussion of the greats of classical music, if not being entirely overlooked, so I reserve the right to speak up on his behalf. If you don't like it, tough darts. When I made my comment, Haydn had not been mentioned here at all.

    Apparently, just as Wagner's music is "better than it sounds," Haydn's music sounds better than it is.

    You call me a troll, but who was it resorting to to F-bombs, all caps, and name-calling? I'd say it's another classic case of the pot calling the teacup black.

    Sailer's previous article you mention was titled, in full:


    "New Yorker: White People Must Start to Realize That Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Verdi, Debussy, and Strauss Were All White"
     
    Somehow Haydn didn't merit mention in Steve's headline. I'd be willing to bet there are few commenters here who have listened to ten, or even five, of Haydn's symphonies, and he wrote over 100.

    Note remarks about classical music by 'guest' #224. He mentions 15 composers, but excludes Haydn.

    As for taste in music among UR commenters, I note his remark about popular music by SunBakedSuburb #153:

    Boomer music, however, is mostly a dud.
     
    What can one say? Only complete ignorance or very bad taste in music could lead to such a ridiculous comment. Given the enduring popularity of music from the '50s, '60s, and '70s, I'd say Boomer music has been anything but a "dud," but maybe SBS was just engaging in some formulaic Boomer bashing.

    Finally, I also reserve the right to point out errors in English. Some people pay big money for an English tutor to learn the fine points of the language, so look at it as a free lesson.

    Replies: @Lace, @anon, @SunBakedSuburb, @Franz Liszt von Raiding

    Apparently, just as Wagner’s music is “better than it sounds,” Haydn’s music sounds better than it is.

    Who wrote that rubbish?

    Yes, you have a right to your opinion that Haydn was the greatest, but you presented it as FACT in your first comment. I noticed later that I had already written about Haydn in a post, but that it had not been released yet. I wrote a number of posts about Haydn and Mozart, Bach, Beethoven later. So maybe Steve didn’t put Haydn in the list on that New Yorker thread, but if you read that thread you’d see that I and a number of others talk about Haydn extensively–and always favourably.

    I’m probably just allergic to ‘the greatest’ in any domain. I’d probably choose Bach if I had to choose a single greatest, but I don’t have to choose. I don’t mind ‘my favourite composer’ or ‘my favourite actress’, etc., but hype such as ‘greatest city in the world’ is boring (even if I live in what is supposedly just that, or was.) I have favourites, but am not an extreme fan of anybody or anything–it always feels like putting myself into a lowly position, which I do not find pleasant.

    Finally, I also reserve the right to point out errors in English. Some people pay big money for an English tutor to learn the fine points of the language, so look at it as a free lesson.

    No thank you. It’s your fucking social skills I so greatly admire and envy.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Lace

    "Who wrote that rubbish?"


    Uhm, that would have been Mark Twain. The full quote is supposed to have been:

    "I'm told that Wagner's music is better than it sounds."

    Replies: @Lace, @Sparkon

  278. @Lace
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, once in a while the movie actually improves upon the novel, as The Shining is infinitely better IMO than Stephen King's book (I mean mainly the corny, unscary ending of the book), although he was furious and made his own TV movie, already forgotten mostly. J.B. Priestley's novel Lost Empires was made into a marvelous Masterpiece Theater mini-series, and good as that novel is--with details not possible to include in the teleplay--the mini-series is better, but was probably too arcane to become popular (WWI Music Hall). I'm sure Gone With the Wind is better than the novel, which I've never been able to make myself read. Showboat is much better as a musical play or movie than the Edna Ferber book was (I did read that as a child.)

    Probably a few others, but of course, you're right for the most part, although I thought the first Far From the Madding Crowd was at least equal to the Hardy classic.

    On a side note, it's even more frequent that B'way shows are much worse when Hollywoodized.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous

    The novel Gone with the Wind is much, much better than the movie, which is a total snooze IMHO.
    I thought the movie version of The Third Man was orders of magnitude better than the novel, which was a totally forgettable “entertainment” in Graham Greene’s wording.

    • Replies: @Lace
    @Anonymous

    That's interesting. I knew a woman who read Gone With the Wind once a year (which I find hard to imagine doing with any book.) I probably won't be able to get around to it. I was probably influenced by W.J. Cash's book The Mind of the South and, although originally a Southerner myself, I took some of what he said and rejected others. He thought the Mitchell novel was an example of 'Southern myth sentimentality', which I thought might be true (of course I don't know without reading it, and the characters don't interest me that much), but he also thought William Faulkner was--which is ridiculous. Faulkner told you the truth about the South, and if there was a touching moment here and there (and sometimes he's very touching, as in Absalom!Absalom! and in the Snopes Trilogy, especially about Mink Snopes), it is still very realistic about what the South really was. Only New Orleans had any cosmopolitanism, although there were (and are still many in Louisiana at least) the ante-bellum mansions which BLM will surely get to...I've seen a few in Alabama, Mississippi and the few in New Orleans itself, but most surround New Orleans, up inland into La.--they have these big tours of them.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  279. anon[161] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sparkon
    @Lace

    Yes, I'm serious, and I'm entitled to my own opinion, which happens to be that Franz Josef Haydn was the greatest classical composer of all. I base my opinion about Haydn on the total volume of his work, and his mastery of the classical form. Nevertheless, Haydn constantly gets short shrift in any discussion of the greats of classical music, if not being entirely overlooked, so I reserve the right to speak up on his behalf. If you don't like it, tough darts. When I made my comment, Haydn had not been mentioned here at all.

    Apparently, just as Wagner's music is "better than it sounds," Haydn's music sounds better than it is.

    You call me a troll, but who was it resorting to to F-bombs, all caps, and name-calling? I'd say it's another classic case of the pot calling the teacup black.

    Sailer's previous article you mention was titled, in full:


    "New Yorker: White People Must Start to Realize That Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Verdi, Debussy, and Strauss Were All White"
     
    Somehow Haydn didn't merit mention in Steve's headline. I'd be willing to bet there are few commenters here who have listened to ten, or even five, of Haydn's symphonies, and he wrote over 100.

    Note remarks about classical music by 'guest' #224. He mentions 15 composers, but excludes Haydn.

    As for taste in music among UR commenters, I note his remark about popular music by SunBakedSuburb #153:

    Boomer music, however, is mostly a dud.
     
    What can one say? Only complete ignorance or very bad taste in music could lead to such a ridiculous comment. Given the enduring popularity of music from the '50s, '60s, and '70s, I'd say Boomer music has been anything but a "dud," but maybe SBS was just engaging in some formulaic Boomer bashing.

    Finally, I also reserve the right to point out errors in English. Some people pay big money for an English tutor to learn the fine points of the language, so look at it as a free lesson.

    Replies: @Lace, @anon, @SunBakedSuburb, @Franz Liszt von Raiding

    Opinions.

    Stravinsky ranked Prokofiev the second greatest Russian composer, after himself, and despised Shostakovich. He called Bartok “the great musician,” but they disagreed vigorously on aesthetics.

    Tchaikovsky disliked Brahms’ music and the latter was cold to Tchaikovsky’s music, but they got along passably as drinking buddies.

    Wagner scoffed at Brahms and dissed him repeatedly.

    Brahms praised Wagner’s Meistersaenger but loathed his influence on German youth. Brahms called Bruckner’s music “symphonic boa constrictors.” Later he changed his mind . . . a little.

    Beethoven wrote to Rossini, “I like your opera. I think I shall set it to music.”

    Bartok is reported to have said that there may be composers who don’t believe in God, but they all believe in Bach.

    Bach was of the opinion that anybody could do what he did if they were willing to work hard enough. He liked muscatel.

    The list goes on. But in response to your post . . .

    Prokofiev “adored” Haydn. Prokofiev’s “Classical Symphony” is his idea of what Haydn would have written if he had lived in the 20th century.

    The pianist Richter preferred Haydn to Mozart.

    The pianist Richter was dismissed by the pianist Yudina as a pianist “for Rachmaninoff.”

    The pianists Van Clyburn and Arthur Rubinstein were both brought to tears upon their respective first hearings of the pianist Richter.

    So what are opinions worth – even the supposedly expert ones?

    There is always controversy about who was the greatest composer ever. I don’t know if Louie Beethoven wrote the greatest music of all time, but I do know it was the greatest music ever written by a deaf guy.

    Oh, and Gustav Mahler’s mother thought her son’s friend Hans Rott was the better composer of the two.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @anon

    Good thing these guys didn't have Twitter back then

  280. @Lace
    @Sparkon


    Apparently, just as Wagner’s music is “better than it sounds,” Haydn’s music sounds better than it is.
     
    Who wrote that rubbish?

    Yes, you have a right to your opinion that Haydn was the greatest, but you presented it as FACT in your first comment. I noticed later that I had already written about Haydn in a post, but that it had not been released yet. I wrote a number of posts about Haydn and Mozart, Bach, Beethoven later. So maybe Steve didn't put Haydn in the list on that New Yorker thread, but if you read that thread you'd see that I and a number of others talk about Haydn extensively--and always favourably.

    I'm probably just allergic to 'the greatest' in any domain. I'd probably choose Bach if I had to choose a single greatest, but I don't have to choose. I don't mind 'my favourite composer' or 'my favourite actress', etc., but hype such as 'greatest city in the world' is boring (even if I live in what is supposedly just that, or was.) I have favourites, but am not an extreme fan of anybody or anything--it always feels like putting myself into a lowly position, which I do not find pleasant.

    Finally, I also reserve the right to point out errors in English. Some people pay big money for an English tutor to learn the fine points of the language, so look at it as a free lesson.
     
    No thank you. It's your fucking social skills I so greatly admire and envy.

    Replies: @anon

    “Who wrote that rubbish?”

    Uhm, that would have been Mark Twain. The full quote is supposed to have been:

    “I’m told that Wagner’s music is better than it sounds.”

    • Replies: @Lace
    @anon

    Thank you. It proves that even our sages can say wise-ass stupid things. Not a thing to recommend that Twain quote.

    Replies: @Dissident

    , @Sparkon
    @anon

    According to the Quote Investigator, the quip about Wagner's music originated with American humorist Edgar Wilson "Bill" Nye (1850-1896):


    In 1902 Mark Twain delivered a commencement address at the “University of Missouri” [sic] in Columbia, and he credited Nye with the Wagner version of the jest:


    I do not know the first principles of music and I should say that there are no standards of music, none at all, except for those people who have climbed through years of exertion until they stand upon the cold Alpine heights, where the air is so rarefied that they can detect a false note, and they lose much by that. I do not detect the false note, and it took me some time to get myself educated up to the point where I could enjoy Wagner. I am satisfied if I get it in the proper doses but I do feel about it a good deal as Bill Nye said. He said he had heard that Wagner’s music was better than it sounds.
     

     
    https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/11/25/wagner-better/
  281. @Anonymous
    @Johnny Smoggins

    That's one level and interpretation of the movie. But note that the main interpretation for most average American viewers is that Borat the character and the movies are making fun of and mocking weird foreign people. Especially since Borat came out in the 2000s when Muslim terrorism and the Mideast wars were prominent in the media and public consciousness. Ask your "normie" conservative and right wing American friends and acquaintances. They generally think it's about mocking and insulting weird Mideastern-ish/Muslim-ish foreign people and think it's hilarious for doing so. In that sense, it's a very conservative, right-wing, nationalistic movie from an American perspective, since it's interpreted as making fun of non-American foreigners. The people who interpret it as being "really" about mocking white people tend to be liberals who are trying to rationalize away the more widespread interpretation that it's mocking foreigners.

    Replies: @Dissident

    Especially since Borat came out in the 2000s when Muslim terrorism and the Mideast wars were prominent in the media and public consciousness.

    The individual you were replying-to, “Johnny Smoggins”, commented specifically on the new, i.e., recently-released, “Borat” film. Your comment seems to overwhelmingly be about the first one.

  282. @Pop Warner
    Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart isn't Mozart's long name. His full name at baptism was Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart. Perhaps we should take this argument to its absurd conclusion and use the long baptismal names.

    Also, Mendelssohn is usually credited with the Bach revival and there is some merit to that (works by Bach weren't being programmed by orchestras but usually by the composer or conductor who put on the show) but Bach was well-known among other composers. Mozart traveled to England early in his life and met Bach's son JC Bach (London Bach) and the Well-Tempered Clavier was standard repertoire for serious pianists (Mendelssohn's similarly talented sister Fanny [whom the author should have mentioned] presented book I of the WTC to her father as a birthday gift when she was 12). Programming Bach was a big deal because usually it was contemporaries that got orchestral performances, but he was by no means unknown. As always, our esteemed historians play favorites and will credit Mendelssohn regardless

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Tex

    Mendelssohn is usually credited with the Bach revival and there is some merit to that (works by Bach weren’t being programmed by orchestras but usually by the composer or conductor who put on the show) but Bach was well-known among other composers.

    Mendelssohn’s role was way bigger than that. Before him, Nobody outside of professional circles cared all that much about past composers. He, more than anybody else, & for better or worse, pioneered the idea of a canon of great composers who you’ve just gotta know. Starting with Bach & Handel.

  283. @Richard S
    @Hibernian

    Lol, the “Iron Lady” to her (“friends” is too strong a word, but say) acolytes.

    “Target no. 1” and “that aul’ hooer in no.10” for certain 1980s politically active chaps with whom you presumably share an ethnic homeland.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    I have always been opposed to the IRA in the form that it has taken in my lifetime. The IRA of 1916 is another story.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    @Hibernian

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jbFL4uDyMdw

    The good old days.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    , @Richard S
    @Hibernian

    The IRA of your lifetime was massively more successful in effecting political change than those clowns in 1916.

    This sissified “Free State-ism” we shall knock out of our southern comrades. A bit of Belfast efficiency is what they need ;-)

    Replies: @JMcG

  284. @Lace
    @Jack D

    I would agree with that. Faulkner doesn't seem to be possible to translate to cinema (the ones I've seen never passed muster), and even the one film of Proust that was praised Le Temps retrouvé didn't work well even with such a cast as it had in my opinion. There's a film from the mid/late 60s of Joyce's Ulysses, although I'm pretty sure it's not really possible to do--there's a grammar of film, but Joyce's linguistic aims were hardly that. Definitely agree about Bonfire of the Vanities, although I'm not sure it had to be impossible--the thing that came out certainly was bad. McCullers did pretty well in the theater and on film--The Member of the Wedding (both) and Reflections in a Golden Eye, which still stands up surprisingly well. The very worst film version of a novel I've ever seen is David Rocksavage's Other Voices, Other Rooms, which is a ghastly travesty, and more or less completely ignores Capote's novel.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan, @Bardon Kaldian

    If you think that is the worst film version of a novel then you haven’t seen Hollywood’s version of Waugh’s The Loved One.

    Only the title has any relationship of any kind to the book. I only hope that Waugh was paid well for the privilege of seeing one of his slighter, if still very funny and beautifully written, novellas so comprehensively trashed.

    • Replies: @Dube
    @Old Palo Altan

    If you think that is the worst film version of a novel then you haven’t seen Hollywood’s version of Waugh’s The Loved One.

    By any other name, perhaps more sweet?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  285. @Lace
    @Jack D

    I would agree with that. Faulkner doesn't seem to be possible to translate to cinema (the ones I've seen never passed muster), and even the one film of Proust that was praised Le Temps retrouvé didn't work well even with such a cast as it had in my opinion. There's a film from the mid/late 60s of Joyce's Ulysses, although I'm pretty sure it's not really possible to do--there's a grammar of film, but Joyce's linguistic aims were hardly that. Definitely agree about Bonfire of the Vanities, although I'm not sure it had to be impossible--the thing that came out certainly was bad. McCullers did pretty well in the theater and on film--The Member of the Wedding (both) and Reflections in a Golden Eye, which still stands up surprisingly well. The very worst film version of a novel I've ever seen is David Rocksavage's Other Voices, Other Rooms, which is a ghastly travesty, and more or less completely ignores Capote's novel.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan, @Bardon Kaldian

    Let’s not ignore instances when both the novel & the movie are simply horrible, the most famous example being Battlefield Earth.

  286. @Elmer T. Jones
    @dearieme

    Bix is great. Have a CD in my car and the tunes just get better with each listen.

    Since the topic is music, I recently enjoyed a recorded book for my commute titled "Everybody's Doin' It: Sex, Music, and Dance in New York, 1840-1917" by Dale Cockrell, a history of the evolution of American popular music and dance and its relation to prostitution. Apparently NYC was one big brothel back in the 19th century. As a former Dance Sensation myself it was quite interesting to me. There is a Library of Congress short from 1903 showing a "tough dance" as described in the book. Would like to find more examples of cakewalks and ragtime. We laugh now at how quaint it seems but those folks were really cutting the rug. Scandalous, really.

    Replies: @fnn, @Dissident

    Apparently NYC was one big brothel back in the 19th century. […]

    Not for nothing were big cities denounced as hotbeds of sin.

    We laugh now at how quaint it seems but those folks were really cutting the rug. Scandalous, really.

    All the more so when one considers the relatively primitive state of contraception back then. Either there was an awful lot of bastardy* or an awful lot of abortion…

    *In the literal sense, that is. That there was in the figurative sense, would seem to require no mention.

    Incidentally, I take it the book you cited discusses the etymology of the very term jazz itself…

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Dissident

    In those days there was a lot less unpaid amateur extramarital sex and a lot more of the paid professional kind. I think this has a lot to do with the availability of cheap labor in the 19th century (not to mention changing female attitudes toward sex outside of marriage). In Victorian days there were a whole host of specialized professional service providers that are largely extinct today. By professional I don't mean doctors and lawyers but laundresses and knife grinders and icemen and barbers who would give you a shave and shoe shine boys and on and on. The array of services that are available at an affordable price nowadays is pathetic compared to back in the day. Nowadays, unless you are super rich everything has to be DIY, even sex.

  287. Bird.
    Bud.
    Miles.
    Trane.
    Duke.
    Ella.
    On and on.

    Then there’s bluesmen, rappers, you get the idea.

    Ignore all fools.

  288. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Bardon Kaldian

    "And Kubrick is one of 10-15 greatest directors"

    I recently found newspaper adverts from 1973 for a double-bill of Clockwork Orange (1971) and Deliverance (1972). Extraordinary, although not a good choice for date night if one desires coitus at the end of the evening. Boomers were spoiled when it came to culture, particularly films. The 60s and 70s were celluloid golden years. Boomer music, however, is mostly a dud. The Beatles were good, though Lennon without McCartney is Yoko Ono. And how about Ringo, the gypsy goober hitting the skins? He's no Danny Carey. The worst offender is Eric Clapton. The only thing more sonically boring than blue-eye blues with an excremental Clapton solo over it is black blues.

    Replies: @Dissident, @Jack D

    Deliverance (1972). Extraordinary, although not a good choice for date night if one desires coitus at the end of the evening.

    I dunno. Certain hillbillies might find it to be stimulating.

  289. @Dissident
    @gent


    It is notable the opposite happened with Hillary Clinton. While she went by Hillary in her 2008 attempt, by 2016 she had integrated her husband’s identity fully and was simply “Clinton.”
     
    Remember when it was Hillary Rodham-Clinton? I always wondered why the former First Lady dropped the hyphenation, and how, given how strongly the trend has been in the opposite direction, she got away with it as easily as she seems to have done.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Reg Cæsar

    I always wondered why the former First Lady dropped the hyphenation…

    Ask your friendly neighborhood focus group.

    Kim Ode of the Minneapolis Star Tribune did a column, in early 2001 I think, about married women keeping their maiden names. I researching it, she was stunned to find out that as late as the opening of the 21st century, not even 10% did. The other 90% happily went with their husbands’.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Reg Cæsar


    Kim Ode of the Minneapolis Star Tribune did a column, in early 2001 I think, about married women keeping their maiden names. I[n] researching it, she was stunned to find out that as late as the opening of the 21st century, not even 10% did. The other 90% happily went with their husbands’.
     
    That was well before The Great Awokening, though. It would be interesting to see how the numbers compare now. So much else has changed dramatically over the past two decades.

    As for our esteemed former First Lady, I wanted to add that I used to make a point of using the Rodham when referring to her in order to highlight the apparent hypocrisy of the woman being marketed to us as the foremost strong, independent, accomplished woman reverting to the exclusive use of her husband's surname as her own.
  290. @vinteuil
    @Old Palo Altan


    So how was she [Alma Mahler]? I can’t say, having been unable to get through even the first of Gustav’s inevitable train wrecks.
     
    Well, suffice it to say that you wouldn't have liked her stuff. Think the harmonic language of the Rückert-Lieder, or of Zemlinsky, with never any glimpse of a tune.

    Still, very competent - you might be surprised. Good enough, at any rate, to add some color to the legend that the musical world lost a great female voice because of Gustav's sexism...

    Except that it's far from clear that Gustav ever forbade her to compose, and it's very clear that in the last couple of years of their nine year marriage he positively encouraged her career as a composer.

    Anyway, YouTube has a collection of her surviving songs in a good orchestral arrangement by a certain Julian Reynolds. Worth a listen, if only to be able to say that you've been there & done that.

    Replies: @guest, @Old Palo Altan

    Vaguely reminiscent of Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald. He rather selfishly preempted her from writing about certain life experiences because he was using them for his novel Tender Is the Night. There has been a great wringing of hands over “what might have been” regarding her throttled potential.

    I’ve read snippets of her work, and it’s it horrible, I suppose. But it was also weird stream-of-consciousness type stuff for which I don’t care.

  291. @Kronos
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Don’t forget “The Godfather.” It’s one of the few instances when the film was superior to the book.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Kronos, a close second, in my opinion was, “Day of the Jackal.” The book was a page turner, the movie, with a cast of non Hollywood stars, was Four Star.

    • Replies: @Lace
    @Buffalo Joe

    This pleasure won't probably go over well with either literary or film connoisseurs, but I think BUtterfield 8 is great both as a book and a movie. But then I totally reject such as Michiko Kakutani's assessment of John O'Hara, who called him a "2nd-rate writer and a jerk". She would, but had already been punished by Norman Mailer so well... A few years ago, I read all of the most important ones, not just Appointment in Samarra, but also Ten North Frederick and From the Terrace (he thought that was his best, and I thought it was pretty great too, plus the Newman/Woodward movie is not bad...not as great as the book again, though, in this case), and there are (I think) incredible short stories, very raw and erotic and brash, some are the best noir I've read outside Chandler. And people don't even seem to remember that there would be no Pal Joey without O'Hara: He not only originated The Joey Stories, he wrote the book to the Rodgers and Hart show. Never gets any credit at all for it. A Rage to Live is way too long and not as good as the others, though.

    But the MOVIE of BUtterfield 8 is Liz Taylor's best, in my opinion. She utterly inhabits the part, and of course, dizzy gal that she was, totally rejected the movie as 'trash' nevermind she was as comfy as possible doing a whore. Well, she wasn't always the brightest, but she was perfect as Cathy: "I TOOK MONEY!"

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  292. @Charlotte
    @Buffalo Joe

    “Mao” just goes to show that Chinese are honorary whites!

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Charlotte, you get a reply, because the game was White despots. Honorary with a lower case “w.” Thank you for the reply.

  293. @Reg Cæsar
    @Dago Shoes


    their surnames only … da Vinci
     
    Leonardo was his name. "Da Vinci" was his address. Indeed, that's one way to tell an expert from a poseur.

    What kind of dago are you, anyway, to make that mistake. And Buffalo Joe misspelled "Mussolini". Honor your heritage!

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Dago Shoes

    Reg, when we make a list of resident PIAs, you will simply be known as Reg.

  294. @Lace
    @vinteuil

    I should add to this little odd exchange that, although not widely known to the public for some years, J.S. Bach was well-known to be very influential on both Mozart and Haydn, through Johann Christian Bach and Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach--so as directly as possible short of Bach still being alive. And of course Mozart and Haydn were more or less in between Bach and Beethoven, Haydn born well before Bach's death and Mozart a few years after.

    I had been interested that Mozart is said to have wanted to write fugues like Bach, but it's hard to believe he couldn't if he really wanted to, and I'm sure did write some fugues (although I don't know about them.) Such complex polyphony was not where Mozart and Haydn were ultimately situated musically, and their similarity of musical language is obvious--with neither sound like anything I can think of by J.S. Bach. I know almost nothing of the music of J.C. Bach and C.P.E. Bach. FUGUE was always taught as a course in itself along with Harmony and Counterpoint, part of Counterpoint--and although Ravel is supposed to have 'written a very beautiful one', by then it had long been an exercise, not real music, just as it is with harmony and counterpoint; we don't hear this fugue that Ravel wrote at the Conservatoire.

    Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @Lace

    “Ravel is supposed to have ‘written a very beautiful one’, by then it had long been an exercise, not real music, just as it is with harmony and counterpoint; we don’t hear this fugue that Ravel wrote at the Conservatoire.”

    You’re a poseur. The second movement of Ravel’s Le Tombeau de Couperin is indeed a beautiful fugue, and if you are a pianist as you claim, you would know it well. It’s among the easiest pieces Ravel ever wrote. No wonder you adore a charlatan like Glenn Gould – you don’t know anything about the piano.

    • Troll: Lace
    • Replies: @Lace
    @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    I continued before reading your thoroughly insulting and ignorant attack here, due to you LOL, which I thought might not indicate enough the kinds of fugues written as exercises in Fugue Classes and from the Traites by Dubois and Gedalge, and actual fugues from the earliest ones, the baroque ones, up until the Fugue in Le Tombeau, which is not included in the orchestral version. Or did you not know, you lovely fruit, that it began as a 6-piece piano piece and was later orchestrated without the Fugue and Toccata? I rarely listen to the piano version even though it's the original, and although I'm familiar with the Fugue it's my least favourite movement, although I don't really love the Toccata either.

    I do know the Fugue from Le Tombeau as well as I want to--it usually just passes by, since I so much prefer the 4 orchestral movements. But the 'beautiful fugue' that Ravel wrote in Fugue Class at the Conservatoire in the same class with Nadia Boulanger cannot be the fugue in Le Tombeau. That would be the same thing as passing off one of the Dubois Harmonie exercises as a child's nursery piece, but just write large. Read my longer previous post. I know you did not do ANY of that business with the 'sluggish action pianos' the 'Kawais, Yamahas, and Steinways' and why the fuck anybody would be doing such an idiotic exercise, especially on Yamahas and Kawais to try to 'private-detective Glenn Gould is beyond me. Nobody would have done it, and you didn't do it. You're a total fraud yourself, and you are perfectly aware that I know a LOT about music and that I have a virtuoso technique. LOL all you want, you fruit.

  295. @AndrewR
    Beethoven wasn't born until 1770, 20 years after J.S. Bach died. How were they "peers"? Beethoven also died in 1827, before you allege Mendelssohn to have repopularized Bach.

    Your rush to make your hot, contrarian takes often makes you look like a moron. Focus on quality instead of smartass "comedy" and quantity.

    Replies: @International Jew, @J.Ross, @Lace, @Richard S, @vinteuil, @Alfa158

    Merriam Webster:
    “ Definition of peer (Entry 1 of 3)
    1 : one that is of equal standing with another : EQUAL”
    Tell us again who’s the moron here.
    You’re too lazy to even look up the definition of a word before you criticize the usage.

  296. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Nicholas Stix

    Yes, Shane was on my mind too, just I didn't write it. Also, one of the exceptions is The Thin Red Line, and, I guess, most Stephen King based movies (I don't read King's novels). This could be also the case with Crichton's novels like Jurassic Park.

    Of course, with the classics things are different.

    Movies are best in depiction of action, of rendering of atmosphere of a certain age (costumes, manner of speech etc.). But, in most other fields, film language is sorely lacking. For instance, brilliant acting & music are the only tools in description of horror, when Hoskins’ character realizes he’s being driven away by the IRA gang to be executed. His grimaces are the most film language can come up with, while a good novelist could extract pages & pages about the same scene.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P806BdqA0k

    Replies: @Cortes

    That ending is wonderful, not least for the riveting introduction of Brosnan as the smiling assassin. Mirren is great also. The music and focus on Hoskins shouldn’t detract from the others.

  297. @Hibernian
    @Richard S

    I have always been opposed to the IRA in the form that it has taken in my lifetime. The IRA of 1916 is another story.

    Replies: @Cortes, @Richard S

    The good old days.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Cortes

    At least one of the killings seems to be clearly a case of justifiable self defense to me, probably a second one is also. If the informant was really setting up an ambush his killing was definitely a betrayal, although it may serve as a payback for some previous offense, or he may just be inconvenient to have around.

    If he's just the usual type of informer and the target just happened to be prepared, it's understandable revenge and no great loss. I would never claim they played by the same rules the American Patriots generally played by, but they didn't engage in the massive slaughter of civilians that marked the Troubles of approx. 1965-1995.

  298. Classical too white, veterinarians too white, hockey too white … I ask again, when will they be coming for metal?

  299. @Dissident
    @SunBakedSuburb


    although not a good choice for date night if one desires coitus at the end of the evening.
     
    Ah, yes, the incidental, gratutious boast of fornication. Seems it's never too long before it surfaces in the comments here...

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb

    “gratuitous boast of fornication”

    I was four years old when Warner Bros. issued its re-release of the two films. Not old enough for fornication or Clockwork Orange. However. Please forgive my descent into tawdry tomfoolery.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @SunBakedSuburb


    However. Please forgive my descent into tawdry tomfoolery.
     
    Please forgive me for seeming to single you out for censure, or coming across as too harsh.
  300. @Sparkon
    @Lace

    Yes, I'm serious, and I'm entitled to my own opinion, which happens to be that Franz Josef Haydn was the greatest classical composer of all. I base my opinion about Haydn on the total volume of his work, and his mastery of the classical form. Nevertheless, Haydn constantly gets short shrift in any discussion of the greats of classical music, if not being entirely overlooked, so I reserve the right to speak up on his behalf. If you don't like it, tough darts. When I made my comment, Haydn had not been mentioned here at all.

    Apparently, just as Wagner's music is "better than it sounds," Haydn's music sounds better than it is.

    You call me a troll, but who was it resorting to to F-bombs, all caps, and name-calling? I'd say it's another classic case of the pot calling the teacup black.

    Sailer's previous article you mention was titled, in full:


    "New Yorker: White People Must Start to Realize That Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Verdi, Debussy, and Strauss Were All White"
     
    Somehow Haydn didn't merit mention in Steve's headline. I'd be willing to bet there are few commenters here who have listened to ten, or even five, of Haydn's symphonies, and he wrote over 100.

    Note remarks about classical music by 'guest' #224. He mentions 15 composers, but excludes Haydn.

    As for taste in music among UR commenters, I note his remark about popular music by SunBakedSuburb #153:

    Boomer music, however, is mostly a dud.
     
    What can one say? Only complete ignorance or very bad taste in music could lead to such a ridiculous comment. Given the enduring popularity of music from the '50s, '60s, and '70s, I'd say Boomer music has been anything but a "dud," but maybe SBS was just engaging in some formulaic Boomer bashing.

    Finally, I also reserve the right to point out errors in English. Some people pay big money for an English tutor to learn the fine points of the language, so look at it as a free lesson.

    Replies: @Lace, @anon, @SunBakedSuburb, @Franz Liszt von Raiding

    “SBS was just engaging in some formulaic Boomer bashing”

    Just engaging in typically formulaic smartassery. There’s much to love about Boomer music.

  301. @Lace
    @vinteuil

    I should add to this little odd exchange that, although not widely known to the public for some years, J.S. Bach was well-known to be very influential on both Mozart and Haydn, through Johann Christian Bach and Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach--so as directly as possible short of Bach still being alive. And of course Mozart and Haydn were more or less in between Bach and Beethoven, Haydn born well before Bach's death and Mozart a few years after.

    I had been interested that Mozart is said to have wanted to write fugues like Bach, but it's hard to believe he couldn't if he really wanted to, and I'm sure did write some fugues (although I don't know about them.) Such complex polyphony was not where Mozart and Haydn were ultimately situated musically, and their similarity of musical language is obvious--with neither sound like anything I can think of by J.S. Bach. I know almost nothing of the music of J.C. Bach and C.P.E. Bach. FUGUE was always taught as a course in itself along with Harmony and Counterpoint, part of Counterpoint--and although Ravel is supposed to have 'written a very beautiful one', by then it had long been an exercise, not real music, just as it is with harmony and counterpoint; we don't hear this fugue that Ravel wrote at the Conservatoire.

    Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @Lace

    Since *je suis omar mateen* wrote LOL on this one, I should clarify that I meant ‘Fugue’ as in a class, in which you’re taught how to write fugues, but are not writing original fugues you thought up on your own. This could be Dubois’s Traité de contrepoint et de fugue, which follows his Traité d’harmonie théorique et pratique when taught. Boulanger started with the harmony treatise, and these are all exercises you do to learn the basics of tonal music, avoid your parellel 5ths and octaves, and she would say ‘That is a beautiful exercise’, when it was always a banal nothing whether with root positions, 6 chords, or 6/4 chords, or the modulation chapter, which she said was wrong. She used Dubois’s Counterpoint treatise too, but for fugue in particular, she taught it with Andre Gedalge’s Traité de la fugue. She was the one who was in Ravel’s Fugue Class who said “our fugues were so awful, but Ravel wrote a very beautiful one”. I forgot that when Le Tombeau de Couperin includes a Fugue in the original piano version. I much prefer the orchestral transcription, which leave out both the ‘Fugue’ and the ‘Toccata’ of the piano original. But that Fugue wouldn’t have been the one he wrote at the Conservatoire, where he is known to have been tortured by Dubois, a supreme pedant, and Nadia could be just like him shoving his things up your ass.

    There are lots of fugues written in the 20th century, but those are real pieces, not ‘fugue exercises’ taught via Dubois or Gedalge. People often wouldn’t know that ‘Fugue’ is taught like Harmony and Counterpoint, which at best would not be the composer’s imagination. If a concert Fugue ever came out of a Fugue Class, I never heard of it, although I suppose it’s possible. The point was to follow the rules in these classes, not to write ‘imaginative fugues’ (or any other kind of imaginative, creative music from any of these, for that matter.)

    Pianists often do the Toccata from Le Tombeau by itself, it’s virtuosic and showy. I like much better the orchestra with the Prelude, Rigaudon, Forlane and Menuet. But there have been several orchestrations of all 6 pieces by other composers–David Diamond did one, and there’s another orchestration of the Fugue and Toccata by Michael Round (?), that Ashkenazy played, and probably some more.

    Balanchine’s ballet of Le Tombeau uses the orchestral version, and it’s something I’ve never managed to see, NYCB does not do it with any regularity–in fact, I’ve never seen it scheduled. I listen to the orchestral version (with Ravel’s smaller orchestra than the larger ones that came later) more than I do to the piano version–the ‘Fugue’ is all right, and the Toccata too, but I prefer the 4 originals for orchestra. Stravinsky wrote many fugues, including one that is very baroque. I don’t think I’ve listened to the Symphony of Psalms all the way through though, which is something I ought to do soon.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @Lace

    Interesting that psychology uses the term fugue as a break or disconnection from reality or personal identity

  302. @anon
    @Lace

    "Who wrote that rubbish?"


    Uhm, that would have been Mark Twain. The full quote is supposed to have been:

    "I'm told that Wagner's music is better than it sounds."

    Replies: @Lace, @Sparkon

    Thank you. It proves that even our sages can say wise-ass stupid things. Not a thing to recommend that Twain quote.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Lace


    It proves that even our sages can say wise-ass stupid things.
     
    Perhaps but it does not appear to be Twain who originated the quote-in-question here.

    From Quote Investigator:
    Wagner’s Music Is Really Much Better Than It Sounds

    Mark Twain? Bill Nye? Ambrose Bierce? Punch Magazine?
     

    In conclusion, Bill Nye (Edgar Wilson Nye) should be credited with the closely related quips about classical music and Wagner’s music. Mark Twain helped to popularize the Wagner remark, but he credited Nye.
     
    Seems like yet another of the many quips that are popularly mis-attributed to the legendary Twain (born Samuel Langhorne Clemens).

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  303. @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    @Lace

    "Ravel is supposed to have ‘written a very beautiful one’, by then it had long been an exercise, not real music, just as it is with harmony and counterpoint; we don’t hear this fugue that Ravel wrote at the Conservatoire."

    You're a poseur. The second movement of Ravel's Le Tombeau de Couperin is indeed a beautiful fugue, and if you are a pianist as you claim, you would know it well. It's among the easiest pieces Ravel ever wrote. No wonder you adore a charlatan like Glenn Gould - you don't know anything about the piano.

    Replies: @Lace

    I continued before reading your thoroughly insulting and ignorant attack here, due to you LOL, which I thought might not indicate enough the kinds of fugues written as exercises in Fugue Classes and from the Traites by Dubois and Gedalge, and actual fugues from the earliest ones, the baroque ones, up until the Fugue in Le Tombeau, which is not included in the orchestral version. Or did you not know, you lovely fruit, that it began as a 6-piece piano piece and was later orchestrated without the Fugue and Toccata? I rarely listen to the piano version even though it’s the original, and although I’m familiar with the Fugue it’s my least favourite movement, although I don’t really love the Toccata either.

    I do know the Fugue from Le Tombeau as well as I want to–it usually just passes by, since I so much prefer the 4 orchestral movements. But the ‘beautiful fugue’ that Ravel wrote in Fugue Class at the Conservatoire in the same class with Nadia Boulanger cannot be the fugue in Le Tombeau. That would be the same thing as passing off one of the Dubois Harmonie exercises as a child’s nursery piece, but just write large. Read my longer previous post. I know you did not do ANY of that business with the ‘sluggish action pianos’ the ‘Kawais, Yamahas, and Steinways’ and why the fuck anybody would be doing such an idiotic exercise, especially on Yamahas and Kawais to try to ‘private-detective Glenn Gould is beyond me. Nobody would have done it, and you didn’t do it. You’re a total fraud yourself, and you are perfectly aware that I know a LOT about music and that I have a virtuoso technique. LOL all you want, you fruit.

  304. @James O'Meara
    I seem to say this every week, but yeah, this perfesser's opus may be the stupidest "article" I've ever skimmed through.

    Isn't it obvious to everyone that famous people with uncommon names get called "Beethoven" or "Mozart," while say, John Adams (the composer, see?) gets the full name treatment, because otherwise WE'D HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT?

    Thus, "As Foucault said..." rather than "As Smith said (who? Huston? Joseph?, etc.)

    Actually, people like "Davóne Tines” and “Igee Dieudonné" would be perfect for the same treatment, except that NO ONE CARES ABOUT THEM. Instead, this idiot inverts cause and effect: If things were fair and everyone was called by their full name, Davóne Tine and Igee Dieudonné would at least have a fair chance. As if the decision to use the first name came first, then fame, rather than the other way around.

    Idiot. Typical Leftist who thinks words determine things (hence PC, microagressions, pronouns, etc.)

    Replies: @Cortes

    Well said.

    The Hispanic tradition of using two surnames, the paternal followed by the maternal, is often disapplied when the paternal name of someone notable is much more “bog standard” or less distinctive than the maternal.

    Márquez for Gabriel Garcia Marquez
    Lorca for Federico Garcia Lorca

    And recently in Spanish politics

    Zapatero for Rodriguez Zapatero

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
  305. @anon
    @Sparkon

    Opinions.

    Stravinsky ranked Prokofiev the second greatest Russian composer, after himself, and despised Shostakovich. He called Bartok "the great musician," but they disagreed vigorously on aesthetics.

    Tchaikovsky disliked Brahms' music and the latter was cold to Tchaikovsky's music, but they got along passably as drinking buddies.

    Wagner scoffed at Brahms and dissed him repeatedly.

    Brahms praised Wagner's Meistersaenger but loathed his influence on German youth. Brahms called Bruckner's music "symphonic boa constrictors." Later he changed his mind . . . a little.

    Beethoven wrote to Rossini, "I like your opera. I think I shall set it to music."

    Bartok is reported to have said that there may be composers who don't believe in God, but they all believe in Bach.

    Bach was of the opinion that anybody could do what he did if they were willing to work hard enough. He liked muscatel.

    The list goes on. But in response to your post . . .

    Prokofiev "adored" Haydn. Prokofiev's "Classical Symphony" is his idea of what Haydn would have written if he had lived in the 20th century.

    The pianist Richter preferred Haydn to Mozart.

    The pianist Richter was dismissed by the pianist Yudina as a pianist "for Rachmaninoff."

    The pianists Van Clyburn and Arthur Rubinstein were both brought to tears upon their respective first hearings of the pianist Richter.

    So what are opinions worth - even the supposedly expert ones?

    There is always controversy about who was the greatest composer ever. I don't know if Louie Beethoven wrote the greatest music of all time, but I do know it was the greatest music ever written by a deaf guy.

    Oh, and Gustav Mahler's mother thought her son's friend Hans Rott was the better composer of the two.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    Good thing these guys didn’t have Twitter back then

  306. @Anonymous
    @Lace

    The novel Gone with the Wind is much, much better than the movie, which is a total snooze IMHO.
    I thought the movie version of The Third Man was orders of magnitude better than the novel, which was a totally forgettable "entertainment" in Graham Greene's wording.

    Replies: @Lace

    That’s interesting. I knew a woman who read Gone With the Wind once a year (which I find hard to imagine doing with any book.) I probably won’t be able to get around to it. I was probably influenced by W.J. Cash’s book The Mind of the South and, although originally a Southerner myself, I took some of what he said and rejected others. He thought the Mitchell novel was an example of ‘Southern myth sentimentality’, which I thought might be true (of course I don’t know without reading it, and the characters don’t interest me that much), but he also thought William Faulkner was–which is ridiculous. Faulkner told you the truth about the South, and if there was a touching moment here and there (and sometimes he’s very touching, as in Absalom!Absalom! and in the Snopes Trilogy, especially about Mink Snopes), it is still very realistic about what the South really was. Only New Orleans had any cosmopolitanism, although there were (and are still many in Louisiana at least) the ante-bellum mansions which BLM will surely get to…I’ve seen a few in Alabama, Mississippi and the few in New Orleans itself, but most surround New Orleans, up inland into La.–they have these big tours of them.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Lace

    Here, Roth was right:

    https://www.webofstories.com/play/philip.roth/146

  307. @Black-hole creator
    @Close Reader


    No, actually. As can be seen from this other piece by him, the author is as gay as can be: https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/08/can-music-be-gay-listening-to-soundscapes-in-provincetown.html?via=recirc_recent
     
    My bad - I only looked at his CV. I guess in some places being gay is no longer considered to be enough to offset that evil white maleness.

    Replies: @Dissident

    I guess in some places being gay is no longer considered to be enough to offset that evil white maleness.

    Might the examples of Andrew Sullivan and Douglas Murray illustrate what you speak of?

    More than than that, an individual can be solidly Gay and be a member of one or even more than one additional intersectionality-favored groups, but if he runs afoul of the Woke orthodoxy in some key area…Consider the examples of Glenn Greenwald and Andy Ngo.

    I am now reminded of a piece that appeared on VDARE within a short time of the 2016 election, about individuals who were fully “out” as Gay (and suffered no negative consequences for such openness) but who dared not come out as Trump supporters (or perhaps even merely as immigration restrictionists), lest they face very real, very negative consequences for doing so.

    Then there are those individuals who may, in one form or another, have homoerotic proclivities (whether to the exclusion of heteroerotic ones or in addition to them) yet resolutely reject one or more of the doctrinaire assertions of LGBTQ ideology, as well as one more aspects of the prevailing Gay behaviors and lifestyle. There are even at least some such individuals who vehemently reject pretty-much all of the aforementioned, and who hold dissident, deplorable views in other areas.

    It should not be difficult to imagine a case where such an individual’s anti-Woke views would cancel-out whatever points of intersectionality he would otherwise enjoy.

    [MORE]
    With some further thought, one should even be able to conceive of a case in which such “intersectionality Pokemon points” that would otherwise work favorably toward such an individual, would instead actively work against him, as negative points. Now imagine an individual for whom all of the aforementioned factors applied, plus an additional one. Namely, that his personal homoerotic proclivities would be of a particular nature that makes them highly conducive to being cynically, blatantly hypocritically weaponized against him– by the very same individuals who would, in the case of a Goodthinker, defend and even extol and champion (almost*) the very same proclivities in-question. Adding all of the aforementioned together, one should be able to imagine a case of what might, if you will, be called inverted intersectionality.

    *The subjects of attraction could be identical. The nature of the attraction, though, would differ in some critical and fundamental aspects.)

    Those interested in some further, related writing of mine, may wish to start with this recent past comment of mine.

  308. @JerseyJeffersonian
    @Miss Laura

    It generates potential tenure track jobs in academia. Beyond that, it requires no justification. As with much of modern day academia I might, somewhat superfluously, add. In its essence, it is likely comprised of much jargon, expounded upon at length by grifting HIQIs. In common with many theses, much verbiage expended upon a vanishingly small advance of useful knowledge, today's equivalent of disputations over how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin.

    Replies: @Dissident

    today’s equivalent of disputations over how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin.

    Is that even a question anymore? Isn’t the answer however many entities identify as angels who identify as dancing upon whatever they identify as the head of a pin?

  309. @Dissident
    @Elmer T. Jones


    Apparently NYC was one big brothel back in the 19th century. [...]
     
    Not for nothing were big cities denounced as hotbeds of sin.

    We laugh now at how quaint it seems but those folks were really cutting the rug. Scandalous, really.
     
    All the more so when one considers the relatively primitive state of contraception back then. Either there was an awful lot of bastardy* or an awful lot of abortion...

    *In the literal sense, that is. That there was in the figurative sense, would seem to require no mention.

    Incidentally, I take it the book you cited discusses the etymology of the very term jazz itself...

    Replies: @Jack D

    In those days there was a lot less unpaid amateur extramarital sex and a lot more of the paid professional kind. I think this has a lot to do with the availability of cheap labor in the 19th century (not to mention changing female attitudes toward sex outside of marriage). In Victorian days there were a whole host of specialized professional service providers that are largely extinct today. By professional I don’t mean doctors and lawyers but laundresses and knife grinders and icemen and barbers who would give you a shave and shoe shine boys and on and on. The array of services that are available at an affordable price nowadays is pathetic compared to back in the day. Nowadays, unless you are super rich everything has to be DIY, even sex.

  310. @Cortes
    @Hibernian

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jbFL4uDyMdw

    The good old days.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    At least one of the killings seems to be clearly a case of justifiable self defense to me, probably a second one is also. If the informant was really setting up an ambush his killing was definitely a betrayal, although it may serve as a payback for some previous offense, or he may just be inconvenient to have around.

    If he’s just the usual type of informer and the target just happened to be prepared, it’s understandable revenge and no great loss. I would never claim they played by the same rules the American Patriots generally played by, but they didn’t engage in the massive slaughter of civilians that marked the Troubles of approx. 1965-1995.

    • Thanks: Dissident
  311. @Old Palo Altan
    @Lace

    If you think that is the worst film version of a novel then you haven't seen Hollywood's version of Waugh's The Loved One.

    Only the title has any relationship of any kind to the book. I only hope that Waugh was paid well for the privilege of seeing one of his slighter, if still very funny and beautifully written, novellas so comprehensively trashed.

    Replies: @Dube

    If you think that is the worst film version of a novel then you haven’t seen Hollywood’s version of Waugh’s The Loved One.

    By any other name, perhaps more sweet?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Dube

    "The Loved One" is not a good movie, but it's a pretty interesting one.

  312. @HammerJack
    Never heard of Prince, Rihanna, Beyonce, Usher, Tupac, Nelly,Seal, Ludacris, etc

    Replies: @Gary in Gramercy, @reactionry, @M_Young

    And in another field, Pele, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho…

  313. @Bill Jones
    @Henry's Cat


    It’ll be hard work commentating on the Brazilian football team in future.
     
    Fred will be pissed, the first name's not the problem. Try getting "Frederico Rodrigues de Paula Santos " on the back of the shirt.

    https://cdn.swisscows.ch//https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0188/0122/products/IMG_20190130_120513_grande.jpg?v=1571438558

    Replies: @Rob McX, @M_Young

    My favorite is ‘Socrates’ from the great 70s, Pele years.

    BTW Rin tin tin is way more famous than either Socrates, so three names are better than one.

  314. @Dube
    @Old Palo Altan

    If you think that is the worst film version of a novel then you haven’t seen Hollywood’s version of Waugh’s The Loved One.

    By any other name, perhaps more sweet?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    “The Loved One” is not a good movie, but it’s a pretty interesting one.

  315. @Nicholas Stix
    @Lace

    Militant homosexualists took over many an academic department of music many years ago.

    In 1999, American Enterprise Magazine Book Editor Bill Kauffman commissioned me to review University of Houston music professor Howard Pollock’s Aaron Copland biography. Most of it was good. However, Pollock felt obligated to waste a chapter on “queer theory.” [Complete, 1999 review here:
    http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2013/05/american-anthems-music-of-aaron-copland.html ]

    [Brief version I posted at Amazon:]

    While occasionally indulging in tendentious “theory,” University of Houston professor of music Howard Pollack’s ambitious, uneven book is redeemed by the author’s encyclopedic knowledge, informed affection for Copland’s (1900-1990) person and music, and the biographer’s ability, more often than not, to write technically sophisticated musical analyses without obscuring the music.

    Given the identity politics dominating the new musicology, for all its flaws, Aaron Copland: The Life and Work of an Uncommon Man, is a good and valuable book. It contains information from previously unavailable letters and interviews with the late composer’s friends and relations. But why does a tenured, respected professor writing for a trade house adopt the method of cobbling on end chapters dealing with tendentious, identity-political theory that can only detract from the work? And yet, at present, this may be as good as can be hoped for: Some theory as encore, to satisfy the commissars. The alternative is, increasingly, all tin-eared theory, and no music.

    Replies: @Lace

    Very good comment. You’re saying the same thing I was saying. Music is no longer music if it is FIRST identity-politics, whether ‘queer theory’, ‘straight theory’, ‘feminist theory’, or any of these things. The breakdown in music and classical dance is very obvious. That reminds me, I need to look at that commenter with quotes by Misty Copeland, of whom I am so sick. I guess ‘white ballets’ died this summer after Floyd, and now Misty imagines she’ll get all of Diana Vishneva’s roles–and she might, in this stupid era. But somebody has her quoted, which hardly comes as even the slightest surprise. Even without George Floyd, she was ubiquitous–I hardly ever watch TV for 40 years, but I used to watch Charlie Rose a lot and she went on and on then. And he was definitely always the flatterer of his guests, unless he did a really hard interview, as with Al-Assad or Putin, and then he had to be at his best. The idiotic ones were as with Lily Tomlin–he told her ‘you are a poet’. It was ridiculous, and that movie she was plugging at the time Grandma, which I saw and it was awful. Proved the lesbian stereotype of slovenliness was quite often exactly that.

    I can imagine that such an otherwise excellent book must have been a pain to deal with–although Copland was definitely gay–or at least all the friends through whom I met him just for a few seconds said so–although I never heard any sex details about him, homo or hetero. I met him briefly at a concert either at Juilliard or Alice Tully Hall or Philharmonic Hall in the mid-70s, but I think we didn’t even have a chance to converse, sorry to say. I think Robert Helps, who was a fine pianist at the time, and I knew somewhat, may have introduced me. I also worked on one of his pieces that was written at that time, was it called ‘Night Thoughts’? I haven’t thought of it since. It was fairly easy and short.

    There were a number of Nadia Boulanger’s big-name students who were homosexual. Virgil Thomson certainly, and I’ve never been sure if Ned Rorem actually studied with her or just knew her very well. She thought highly of his songs when young, but told him he should ‘pay more attention to the details of his life’, which he ignored, as The Paris Diary documents. That was enough of his diaries for me, but it was interesting for the 50s atmosphere and a young ambitious American doing all the cliched American-in-Paris things–and publishing such things way too soon, I might say… I met Thomson a number of times, he was not so pleasant and I’ve never cared much for his music. Carter I never met but he lived a block away and I saw him often in the neighbourhood. I don’t know if I saw his wife and/or son, because I wouldn’t recognize them, but I just saw he stayed in that apartment only till 2003. He died a couple of days after Hurricane Sandy, and I had assumed he was still there.

    For me, he is mainly his ‘Ballet for Martha’, which is one of the perfect pieces of Americana that stands up to anything European. But I admit I know much more about her ballets than I do about his music.

    But, of course, what Chris White is doing to music is going to be what other, more talented musicians have to compromise to as well, and in dance it’s already sterilized, except POB and Kirov, who don’t pay any attention (yet.) But literature, certainly, and film, all of the Arts now have to be scrutinized through this lens of identity politics. It is perfectly horrifying.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Lace

    Waiting for gay nonlinear partial differential equations & queer quasars .....

  316. @Buffalo Joe
    @Kronos

    Kronos, a close second, in my opinion was, "Day of the Jackal." The book was a page turner, the movie, with a cast of non Hollywood stars, was Four Star.

    Replies: @Lace

    This pleasure won’t probably go over well with either literary or film connoisseurs, but I think BUtterfield 8 is great both as a book and a movie. But then I totally reject such as Michiko Kakutani’s assessment of John O’Hara, who called him a “2nd-rate writer and a jerk”. She would, but had already been punished by Norman Mailer so well… A few years ago, I read all of the most important ones, not just Appointment in Samarra, but also Ten North Frederick and From the Terrace (he thought that was his best, and I thought it was pretty great too, plus the Newman/Woodward movie is not bad…not as great as the book again, though, in this case), and there are (I think) incredible short stories, very raw and erotic and brash, some are the best noir I’ve read outside Chandler. And people don’t even seem to remember that there would be no Pal Joey without O’Hara: He not only originated The Joey Stories, he wrote the book to the Rodgers and Hart show. Never gets any credit at all for it. A Rage to Live is way too long and not as good as the others, though.

    But the MOVIE of BUtterfield 8 is Liz Taylor’s best, in my opinion. She utterly inhabits the part, and of course, dizzy gal that she was, totally rejected the movie as ‘trash’ nevermind she was as comfy as possible doing a whore. Well, she wasn’t always the brightest, but she was perfect as Cathy: “I TOOK MONEY!”

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Lace

    O'Hara is one of those authors who, somehow, disappear from a wider reading audience consciousness. Among English-language writers I put Frank Norris, W. S. Maugham (yes, even him), Arnold Bennett, George Moore & a few others into that category. Perhaps Dreiser, too.

    Classical naturalist authors are out of fashion; experimental modernists have a mixed fortune: Joyce's central novel hardly anyone reads; Faulkner's 2 or 3 major works are still read, while Woolf is read, as a novelist, mostly for ideological reasons.

    The luckiest, with regard to the reading public, are subtle modernists who hadn't unnecessarily indulged into technical bravuras (Forster, Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Flannery O'Connor, ...)

    Thomas Wolfe has, essentially, vanished.

    Replies: @Lace

  317. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Dissident

    "gratuitous boast of fornication"

    I was four years old when Warner Bros. issued its re-release of the two films. Not old enough for fornication or Clockwork Orange. However. Please forgive my descent into tawdry tomfoolery.

    Replies: @Dissident

    However. Please forgive my descent into tawdry tomfoolery.

    Please forgive me for seeming to single you out for censure, or coming across as too harsh.

  318. @Lace
    @Nicholas Stix

    Very good comment. You're saying the same thing I was saying. Music is no longer music if it is FIRST identity-politics, whether 'queer theory', 'straight theory', 'feminist theory', or any of these things. The breakdown in music and classical dance is very obvious. That reminds me, I need to look at that commenter with quotes by Misty Copeland, of whom I am so sick. I guess 'white ballets' died this summer after Floyd, and now Misty imagines she'll get all of Diana Vishneva's roles--and she might, in this stupid era. But somebody has her quoted, which hardly comes as even the slightest surprise. Even without George Floyd, she was ubiquitous--I hardly ever watch TV for 40 years, but I used to watch Charlie Rose a lot and she went on and on then. And he was definitely always the flatterer of his guests, unless he did a really hard interview, as with Al-Assad or Putin, and then he had to be at his best. The idiotic ones were as with Lily Tomlin--he told her 'you are a poet'. It was ridiculous, and that movie she was plugging at the time Grandma, which I saw and it was awful. Proved the lesbian stereotype of slovenliness was quite often exactly that.

    I can imagine that such an otherwise excellent book must have been a pain to deal with--although Copland was definitely gay--or at least all the friends through whom I met him just for a few seconds said so--although I never heard any sex details about him, homo or hetero. I met him briefly at a concert either at Juilliard or Alice Tully Hall or Philharmonic Hall in the mid-70s, but I think we didn't even have a chance to converse, sorry to say. I think Robert Helps, who was a fine pianist at the time, and I knew somewhat, may have introduced me. I also worked on one of his pieces that was written at that time, was it called 'Night Thoughts'? I haven't thought of it since. It was fairly easy and short.

    There were a number of Nadia Boulanger's big-name students who were homosexual. Virgil Thomson certainly, and I've never been sure if Ned Rorem actually studied with her or just knew her very well. She thought highly of his songs when young, but told him he should 'pay more attention to the details of his life', which he ignored, as The Paris Diary documents. That was enough of his diaries for me, but it was interesting for the 50s atmosphere and a young ambitious American doing all the cliched American-in-Paris things--and publishing such things way too soon, I might say... I met Thomson a number of times, he was not so pleasant and I've never cared much for his music. Carter I never met but he lived a block away and I saw him often in the neighbourhood. I don't know if I saw his wife and/or son, because I wouldn't recognize them, but I just saw he stayed in that apartment only till 2003. He died a couple of days after Hurricane Sandy, and I had assumed he was still there.

    For me, he is mainly his 'Ballet for Martha', which is one of the perfect pieces of Americana that stands up to anything European. But I admit I know much more about her ballets than I do about his music.

    But, of course, what Chris White is doing to music is going to be what other, more talented musicians have to compromise to as well, and in dance it's already sterilized, except POB and Kirov, who don't pay any attention (yet.) But literature, certainly, and film, all of the Arts now have to be scrutinized through this lens of identity politics. It is perfectly horrifying.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Waiting for gay nonlinear partial differential equations & queer quasars …..

  319. @Lace
    @Buffalo Joe

    This pleasure won't probably go over well with either literary or film connoisseurs, but I think BUtterfield 8 is great both as a book and a movie. But then I totally reject such as Michiko Kakutani's assessment of John O'Hara, who called him a "2nd-rate writer and a jerk". She would, but had already been punished by Norman Mailer so well... A few years ago, I read all of the most important ones, not just Appointment in Samarra, but also Ten North Frederick and From the Terrace (he thought that was his best, and I thought it was pretty great too, plus the Newman/Woodward movie is not bad...not as great as the book again, though, in this case), and there are (I think) incredible short stories, very raw and erotic and brash, some are the best noir I've read outside Chandler. And people don't even seem to remember that there would be no Pal Joey without O'Hara: He not only originated The Joey Stories, he wrote the book to the Rodgers and Hart show. Never gets any credit at all for it. A Rage to Live is way too long and not as good as the others, though.

    But the MOVIE of BUtterfield 8 is Liz Taylor's best, in my opinion. She utterly inhabits the part, and of course, dizzy gal that she was, totally rejected the movie as 'trash' nevermind she was as comfy as possible doing a whore. Well, she wasn't always the brightest, but she was perfect as Cathy: "I TOOK MONEY!"

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    O’Hara is one of those authors who, somehow, disappear from a wider reading audience consciousness. Among English-language writers I put Frank Norris, W. S. Maugham (yes, even him), Arnold Bennett, George Moore & a few others into that category. Perhaps Dreiser, too.

    Classical naturalist authors are out of fashion; experimental modernists have a mixed fortune: Joyce’s central novel hardly anyone reads; Faulkner’s 2 or 3 major works are still read, while Woolf is read, as a novelist, mostly for ideological reasons.

    The luckiest, with regard to the reading public, are subtle modernists who hadn’t unnecessarily indulged into technical bravuras (Forster, Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Flannery O’Connor, …)

    Thomas Wolfe has, essentially, vanished.

    • Replies: @Lace
    @Bardon Kaldian

    By now, 'Thomas Wolfe' probably is thought to be the same as Tom Wolfe--and that was always sort of unfortunate, although I'm not sure I ever got all the way through one of Thomas's novels. Proust is still read, people especially want to make sure people know they've read all of it, especially those who've read it in French. Hadn't thought of Maugham for years, but never read much of him either.

    There is some sort of club for O'Hara lovers, or was. Fran Liebowitz was a member, and I haven't heard of her for many years either. But I'm glad, I think O'Hara was a great writer. I had forgotten the title of one of the best 'long short stories' A Few Trips and Some Poetry--that's thoroughly brilliant. He once held the record of "most New Yorker stories published", and may still, although Barthelme always published, but I don't think over a long enough period.

    Balzac is still read, and reminds me I want to reread La Cousine Bette.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  320. @SunBakedSuburb
    @Art Deco

    "disagreeable adolescence"

    I listen to progressive metal and instrumental stoner rock. I also listen to Debussy, Sibelius, Brahms, and Arvo Part. All of this music contains deep, transcendental melodies that brings one closer to the Universal Consciousness you call Jesus.

    Replies: @JimB

    The granddaddies of death metal/heavy metal started off as a fun time blues band, but nobody paid attention. After seeing a movie marquee in 1968 advertising a schlock Boris Karloff movie, the guitarist got the bright idea to detune his guitar and change the name of his band from Earth to Black Sabbath. I’m not sure he was thinking about “Universal Consciousness” at the time since he was practically unconscious from drug use. Actually, to my puckish delight, I find from Wikipedia that all the founding members are still alive.

  321. @Lace
    @Lace

    Since *je suis omar mateen* wrote LOL on this one, I should clarify that I meant 'Fugue' as in a class, in which you're taught how to write fugues, but are not writing original fugues you thought up on your own. This could be Dubois's Traité de contrepoint et de fugue, which follows his Traité d'harmonie théorique et pratique when taught. Boulanger started with the harmony treatise, and these are all exercises you do to learn the basics of tonal music, avoid your parellel 5ths and octaves, and she would say 'That is a beautiful exercise', when it was always a banal nothing whether with root positions, 6 chords, or 6/4 chords, or the modulation chapter, which she said was wrong. She used Dubois's Counterpoint treatise too, but for fugue in particular, she taught it with Andre Gedalge's Traité de la fugue. She was the one who was in Ravel's Fugue Class who said "our fugues were so awful, but Ravel wrote a very beautiful one". I forgot that when Le Tombeau de Couperin includes a Fugue in the original piano version. I much prefer the orchestral transcription, which leave out both the 'Fugue' and the 'Toccata' of the piano original. But that Fugue wouldn't have been the one he wrote at the Conservatoire, where he is known to have been tortured by Dubois, a supreme pedant, and Nadia could be just like him shoving his things up your ass.

    There are lots of fugues written in the 20th century, but those are real pieces, not 'fugue exercises' taught via Dubois or Gedalge. People often wouldn't know that 'Fugue' is taught like Harmony and Counterpoint, which at best would not be the composer's imagination. If a concert Fugue ever came out of a Fugue Class, I never heard of it, although I suppose it's possible. The point was to follow the rules in these classes, not to write 'imaginative fugues' (or any other kind of imaginative, creative music from any of these, for that matter.)

    Pianists often do the Toccata from Le Tombeau by itself, it's virtuosic and showy. I like much better the orchestra with the Prelude, Rigaudon, Forlane and Menuet. But there have been several orchestrations of all 6 pieces by other composers--David Diamond did one, and there's another orchestration of the Fugue and Toccata by Michael Round (?), that Ashkenazy played, and probably some more.

    Balanchine's ballet of Le Tombeau uses the orchestral version, and it's something I've never managed to see, NYCB does not do it with any regularity--in fact, I've never seen it scheduled. I listen to the orchestral version (with Ravel's smaller orchestra than the larger ones that came later) more than I do to the piano version--the 'Fugue' is all right, and the Toccata too, but I prefer the 4 originals for orchestra. Stravinsky wrote many fugues, including one that is very baroque. I don't think I've listened to the Symphony of Psalms all the way through though, which is something I ought to do soon.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    Interesting that psychology uses the term fugue as a break or disconnection from reality or personal identity

    • Agree: Lace
  322. @Sparkon
    @Lace

    Yes, I'm serious, and I'm entitled to my own opinion, which happens to be that Franz Josef Haydn was the greatest classical composer of all. I base my opinion about Haydn on the total volume of his work, and his mastery of the classical form. Nevertheless, Haydn constantly gets short shrift in any discussion of the greats of classical music, if not being entirely overlooked, so I reserve the right to speak up on his behalf. If you don't like it, tough darts. When I made my comment, Haydn had not been mentioned here at all.

    Apparently, just as Wagner's music is "better than it sounds," Haydn's music sounds better than it is.

    You call me a troll, but who was it resorting to to F-bombs, all caps, and name-calling? I'd say it's another classic case of the pot calling the teacup black.

    Sailer's previous article you mention was titled, in full:


    "New Yorker: White People Must Start to Realize That Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Wagner, Verdi, Debussy, and Strauss Were All White"
     
    Somehow Haydn didn't merit mention in Steve's headline. I'd be willing to bet there are few commenters here who have listened to ten, or even five, of Haydn's symphonies, and he wrote over 100.

    Note remarks about classical music by 'guest' #224. He mentions 15 composers, but excludes Haydn.

    As for taste in music among UR commenters, I note his remark about popular music by SunBakedSuburb #153:

    Boomer music, however, is mostly a dud.
     
    What can one say? Only complete ignorance or very bad taste in music could lead to such a ridiculous comment. Given the enduring popularity of music from the '50s, '60s, and '70s, I'd say Boomer music has been anything but a "dud," but maybe SBS was just engaging in some formulaic Boomer bashing.

    Finally, I also reserve the right to point out errors in English. Some people pay big money for an English tutor to learn the fine points of the language, so look at it as a free lesson.

    Replies: @Lace, @anon, @SunBakedSuburb, @Franz Liszt von Raiding

    The Greatest composer Ever wrote the most often programmed work in recitals to this day Ie His Sonata. In fact he invented the whole idea of a single performer recital and named the event a “recital”. He was the first to go on a concert tour and raise awareness for the greatness of Beethoven by holding a charity concert series to pay for a marble statue of the “banger from Bonn”. At his Paris debut at age 18 he ***brought the house down*** with his own arrangement of William Tell overture by Rossini which mAny in attendance thought was more sonorous than an entire orchestras performance of the very same. I’ll stop now. Read Alan Walker’s three volume set about his life to learn more. Franz Liszt

  323. @vinteuil
    @Old Palo Altan

    Oh, and...just for the record...I can't get enough of the songs of Gustav Mahler.

    Fischer-Dieskau's 1954 *Wayfaring Youth* with Furtwängler...

    Kathleen Ferrier's 1949 *Kindertotenlieder* with Bruno Walter...

    If only I could be 13 again, ready to discover such wonders, for the first time.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

    Tried both last night. Love Fischer-Dieskau, Furtwängler (and was interested to read that he liked Mahler’s songs but not his symphonies) and Ferrier, but don’t tend to hear much Walter (I was impressed by his quality here however).

    But still … well, you know what I am going to say, so instead I’ll just remark that I’m glad somebody likes him.

    And 13! So true, and just wait till that is 60 years in your past if you think you have nostalgic regrets now.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @Old Palo Altan


    Love Fischer-Dieskau
     
    Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau was, in contempt of question, the greatest singer ever. He could do anything, and do it more beautifully & more sensitively than anybody else.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Old Palo Altan

  324. @vinteuil
    @Old Palo Altan


    So how was she [Alma Mahler]? I can’t say, having been unable to get through even the first of Gustav’s inevitable train wrecks.
     
    Well, suffice it to say that you wouldn't have liked her stuff. Think the harmonic language of the Rückert-Lieder, or of Zemlinsky, with never any glimpse of a tune.

    Still, very competent - you might be surprised. Good enough, at any rate, to add some color to the legend that the musical world lost a great female voice because of Gustav's sexism...

    Except that it's far from clear that Gustav ever forbade her to compose, and it's very clear that in the last couple of years of their nine year marriage he positively encouraged her career as a composer.

    Anyway, YouTube has a collection of her surviving songs in a good orchestral arrangement by a certain Julian Reynolds. Worth a listen, if only to be able to say that you've been there & done that.

    Replies: @guest, @Old Palo Altan

    Not impressed with her creative talent (no evidence of any) but I agree that her work is very well constructed.

    You must be referring to the late Zemlinsky: I listened to some of his early song cycles and found them both tuneful and charming.

  325. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Lace

    O'Hara is one of those authors who, somehow, disappear from a wider reading audience consciousness. Among English-language writers I put Frank Norris, W. S. Maugham (yes, even him), Arnold Bennett, George Moore & a few others into that category. Perhaps Dreiser, too.

    Classical naturalist authors are out of fashion; experimental modernists have a mixed fortune: Joyce's central novel hardly anyone reads; Faulkner's 2 or 3 major works are still read, while Woolf is read, as a novelist, mostly for ideological reasons.

    The luckiest, with regard to the reading public, are subtle modernists who hadn't unnecessarily indulged into technical bravuras (Forster, Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Flannery O'Connor, ...)

    Thomas Wolfe has, essentially, vanished.

    Replies: @Lace

    By now, ‘Thomas Wolfe’ probably is thought to be the same as Tom Wolfe–and that was always sort of unfortunate, although I’m not sure I ever got all the way through one of Thomas’s novels. Proust is still read, people especially want to make sure people know they’ve read all of it, especially those who’ve read it in French. Hadn’t thought of Maugham for years, but never read much of him either.

    There is some sort of club for O’Hara lovers, or was. Fran Liebowitz was a member, and I haven’t heard of her for many years either. But I’m glad, I think O’Hara was a great writer. I had forgotten the title of one of the best ‘long short stories’ A Few Trips and Some Poetry–that’s thoroughly brilliant. He once held the record of “most New Yorker stories published”, and may still, although Barthelme always published, but I don’t think over a long enough period.

    Balzac is still read, and reminds me I want to reread La Cousine Bette.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Lace

    Proust is-- here I agree with Forster- along with Dostoevsky & Tolstoy, the greatest of novelists. He is in the category of supreme writers.

    Maugham, in my opinion, remains a very powerful imperfect novelist in "Of Human Bondage"- apart from weak ending. The very limitation of the author's stubborn naturalist, atheist & essentially desperate, forced Stoic world-view only adds to the novel's strength.

    O'Hara is a master, but I think his bad (or good?) luck is that academics & arbiters of taste have given up on him.

    Proust is a life changing experience (I don't care for snobs who read him for social status). I guess he is, along a few core authors & texts- here I place Plato, NT, Confucius, Lao Tzu, parts of the Upanishads, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky & a few others who- now, this will sound inflated- reveal the zenith & the nadir of human destiny.

    Since my take on Proust would probably bore most readers, I'll insert More tag.

    Proust's erotic life (intensely homo) seems to me like a materia poetica for this monumental work, irradiating a specific sensibility of the mutable, all-seeing mind. Although his illness (asthma) and sexual orientation (homosexual) are undoubtedly of paramount importance, they do not inform the center of his work and worldview. Both Plato and Whitman were bi/homosexuals & yet there is no such pessimism in them about life which, as rendered in Proust's masterwork, is the practical embodiment of the Buddhist apothegm: "Everything is painful, everything is transient."

    How so and why?

    A sharpened metaphysical mind and an overdeveloped sensibility seem to necessarily lead to pessimism about mortality and Weltschmertz. This lament over transience is overcome in Goethe's "Faust" by religious epiphany at the end; in Plato's "Symposium," Socrates ascends through the ladder of Love, through the terrifying-liberating daemon Eros, to the source of all, the One who is Good and Love; in Whitman's theophanies erotic torments and other travails, from the suffering of a decaying body paralyzed by stroke and the "unpleasant" experiences he describes (amputations without anesthetics, except a few gulps of alcohol) - and do not provoke pessimism, because everything is actually "good" since All is the manifestation of the Being, God, the Tao ...

    But Proust has no God, at least as a compass needle (although he personally had a religious consciousness - for example, a month before his death he wrote to an acquaintance, the Catholic poet Francis Jammes, to pray to St. Joseph for him; when he died, his maid Celeste gave him, at his request, the Rosary of Mary directly from Jerusalem, supposedly a powerful relic). Thus, in Proust's case, it is not an ideological atheism, but a complex psyche which, because of richness of insight and wealth of experience, is necessarily focused on transcendence - and yet, cannot find it in a more traditional way.

    The English writer Happold divided mysticism, roughly, into three types: theistic (some tampering with God), the mysticism of Nature or pantheism (one can find it in poets & in versions of Taoism, for example), and "mysticism of the soul". Having in mind his path of introversion and self-analysis. Proust obviously falls into the third category.

    In this category are all the usual contemplatives like Zen meditations practitioners, parts of yoga, etc., but Proust was not a dogmatic meditator and structured contemplative practice would be boring to him. Perhaps it is not an extravagant thesis that puts his creative undertaking close to the Hindu-Buddhist effort to separate oneself from the dark energies of Tamas binding one to the Samsaric world through introspection and to come, gradually, to the intense joy of inner Self. In the case of Proust, this self-analysis is not only a chewing and reliving of life's torments (and some joys), but also a heroic path towards overcoming of ego-personality, albeit without dogmatic religious goals. It is a path of self-realization of a non-dogmatic sage. Here he was well served by the decadent quasi-religion of Art as something eternal, which in the absence of a muse (no male Beatrice, that would be absurd & hyper-comical), or religious dynamics which suffused, in various ways, Plato and Dostoevsky - turned out for him to be the royal path to salvation — whatever that meant.

    According to Freud, ego is the seat of suffering. For a developed consciousness, if there are no temporary emotional-mental analgesics to lull and numb it, the way out is in transcendence. There are different paths to it, and how "successful" they are depends on intelligence, temperament of an individual. For most people, I guess, ordinary faith and trust in God are enough; many do not need it, because they are doing relatively well in life, and they do not possess a hyper-developed imagination, sensibility and "higher mind". But if they have, like Proust did, and by temperament & intelligence are dissatisfied with the usual life's lullabies - then they follow their own search for a fulfilled, abundant life. It was the case with Proust.

    But, enough with dry philosophizing.

    Proust was primarily a wisdom writer, not a philosopher. Obviously, for Proust, writing was a therapy for life's pain & meaninglessness. He could not have been satisfied by ordinary consolations of a religion; nor with social movements, etc .; in fact, aside from sexual orientation, his is a rare case of a highly intelligent and hypersensitive individual who needs absolutes in life and does not find them- and then arrives to a kind of self-realization through hyperanalysis that, finally, results in earthly wisdom and re-affirms the magic & mesmerizing mystery of life's abundance despite all its torments and disappointments .

    Replies: @Lace

  326. @Pop Warner
    Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart isn't Mozart's long name. His full name at baptism was Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart. Perhaps we should take this argument to its absurd conclusion and use the long baptismal names.

    Also, Mendelssohn is usually credited with the Bach revival and there is some merit to that (works by Bach weren't being programmed by orchestras but usually by the composer or conductor who put on the show) but Bach was well-known among other composers. Mozart traveled to England early in his life and met Bach's son JC Bach (London Bach) and the Well-Tempered Clavier was standard repertoire for serious pianists (Mendelssohn's similarly talented sister Fanny [whom the author should have mentioned] presented book I of the WTC to her father as a birthday gift when she was 12). Programming Bach was a big deal because usually it was contemporaries that got orchestral performances, but he was by no means unknown. As always, our esteemed historians play favorites and will credit Mendelssohn regardless

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Tex

    Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart isn’t Mozart’s long name. His full name at baptism was Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart.

    Egads! What does this do to “Rock Me Amadeus”?!? Not only does Johann “Hans” Hölzel one-name Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart, but it’s the wrong name!

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    @Tex

    "Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus" will never have been Mozart's day-to-day name, but merely what a priest wrote into the baptismal record.

    Mozart himself, after many a variant, ended up mostly writing "Wolfgang Amadé".

  327. @anon
    @Lace

    "Who wrote that rubbish?"


    Uhm, that would have been Mark Twain. The full quote is supposed to have been:

    "I'm told that Wagner's music is better than it sounds."

    Replies: @Lace, @Sparkon

    According to the Quote Investigator, the quip about Wagner’s music originated with American humorist Edgar Wilson “Bill” Nye (1850-1896):

    In 1902 Mark Twain delivered a commencement address at the “University of Missouri” [sic] in Columbia, and he credited Nye with the Wagner version of the jest:

    I do not know the first principles of music and I should say that there are no standards of music, none at all, except for those people who have climbed through years of exertion until they stand upon the cold Alpine heights, where the air is so rarefied that they can detect a false note, and they lose much by that. I do not detect the false note, and it took me some time to get myself educated up to the point where I could enjoy Wagner. I am satisfied if I get it in the proper doses but I do feel about it a good deal as Bill Nye said. He said he had heard that Wagner’s music was better than it sounds.

    https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/11/25/wagner-better/

  328. @Lace
    @Anonymous

    That's interesting. I knew a woman who read Gone With the Wind once a year (which I find hard to imagine doing with any book.) I probably won't be able to get around to it. I was probably influenced by W.J. Cash's book The Mind of the South and, although originally a Southerner myself, I took some of what he said and rejected others. He thought the Mitchell novel was an example of 'Southern myth sentimentality', which I thought might be true (of course I don't know without reading it, and the characters don't interest me that much), but he also thought William Faulkner was--which is ridiculous. Faulkner told you the truth about the South, and if there was a touching moment here and there (and sometimes he's very touching, as in Absalom!Absalom! and in the Snopes Trilogy, especially about Mink Snopes), it is still very realistic about what the South really was. Only New Orleans had any cosmopolitanism, although there were (and are still many in Louisiana at least) the ante-bellum mansions which BLM will surely get to...I've seen a few in Alabama, Mississippi and the few in New Orleans itself, but most surround New Orleans, up inland into La.--they have these big tours of them.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    • Thanks: Lace
  329. Beethoven Has a First Name

    And a middle name — Roll Over.

  330. @Lace
    @Bardon Kaldian

    By now, 'Thomas Wolfe' probably is thought to be the same as Tom Wolfe--and that was always sort of unfortunate, although I'm not sure I ever got all the way through one of Thomas's novels. Proust is still read, people especially want to make sure people know they've read all of it, especially those who've read it in French. Hadn't thought of Maugham for years, but never read much of him either.

    There is some sort of club for O'Hara lovers, or was. Fran Liebowitz was a member, and I haven't heard of her for many years either. But I'm glad, I think O'Hara was a great writer. I had forgotten the title of one of the best 'long short stories' A Few Trips and Some Poetry--that's thoroughly brilliant. He once held the record of "most New Yorker stories published", and may still, although Barthelme always published, but I don't think over a long enough period.

    Balzac is still read, and reminds me I want to reread La Cousine Bette.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Proust is– here I agree with Forster- along with Dostoevsky & Tolstoy, the greatest of novelists. He is in the category of supreme writers.

    Maugham, in my opinion, remains a very powerful imperfect novelist in “Of Human Bondage”- apart from weak ending. The very limitation of the author’s stubborn naturalist, atheist & essentially desperate, forced Stoic world-view only adds to the novel’s strength.

    O’Hara is a master, but I think his bad (or good?) luck is that academics & arbiters of taste have given up on him.

    Proust is a life changing experience (I don’t care for snobs who read him for social status). I guess he is, along a few core authors & texts- here I place Plato, NT, Confucius, Lao Tzu, parts of the Upanishads, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky & a few others who- now, this will sound inflated- reveal the zenith & the nadir of human destiny.

    Since my take on Proust would probably bore most readers, I’ll insert More tag.

    [MORE]

    Proust’s erotic life (intensely homo) seems to me like a materia poetica for this monumental work, irradiating a specific sensibility of the mutable, all-seeing mind. Although his illness (asthma) and sexual orientation (homosexual) are undoubtedly of paramount importance, they do not inform the center of his work and worldview. Both Plato and Whitman were bi/homosexuals & yet there is no such pessimism in them about life which, as rendered in Proust’s masterwork, is the practical embodiment of the Buddhist apothegm: “Everything is painful, everything is transient.”

    How so and why?

    A sharpened metaphysical mind and an overdeveloped sensibility seem to necessarily lead to pessimism about mortality and Weltschmertz. This lament over transience is overcome in Goethe’s “Faust” by religious epiphany at the end; in Plato’s “Symposium,” Socrates ascends through the ladder of Love, through the terrifying-liberating daemon Eros, to the source of all, the One who is Good and Love; in Whitman’s theophanies erotic torments and other travails, from the suffering of a decaying body paralyzed by stroke and the “unpleasant” experiences he describes (amputations without anesthetics, except a few gulps of alcohol) – and do not provoke pessimism, because everything is actually “good” since All is the manifestation of the Being, God, the Tao …

    But Proust has no God, at least as a compass needle (although he personally had a religious consciousness – for example, a month before his death he wrote to an acquaintance, the Catholic poet Francis Jammes, to pray to St. Joseph for him; when he died, his maid Celeste gave him, at his request, the Rosary of Mary directly from Jerusalem, supposedly a powerful relic). Thus, in Proust’s case, it is not an ideological atheism, but a complex psyche which, because of richness of insight and wealth of experience, is necessarily focused on transcendence – and yet, cannot find it in a more traditional way.

    The English writer Happold divided mysticism, roughly, into three types: theistic (some tampering with God), the mysticism of Nature or pantheism (one can find it in poets & in versions of Taoism, for example), and “mysticism of the soul”. Having in mind his path of introversion and self-analysis. Proust obviously falls into the third category.

    In this category are all the usual contemplatives like Zen meditations practitioners, parts of yoga, etc., but Proust was not a dogmatic meditator and structured contemplative practice would be boring to him. Perhaps it is not an extravagant thesis that puts his creative undertaking close to the Hindu-Buddhist effort to separate oneself from the dark energies of Tamas binding one to the Samsaric world through introspection and to come, gradually, to the intense joy of inner Self. In the case of Proust, this self-analysis is not only a chewing and reliving of life’s torments (and some joys), but also a heroic path towards overcoming of ego-personality, albeit without dogmatic religious goals. It is a path of self-realization of a non-dogmatic sage. Here he was well served by the decadent quasi-religion of Art as something eternal, which in the absence of a muse (no male Beatrice, that would be absurd & hyper-comical), or religious dynamics which suffused, in various ways, Plato and Dostoevsky – turned out for him to be the royal path to salvation — whatever that meant.

    According to Freud, ego is the seat of suffering. For a developed consciousness, if there are no temporary emotional-mental analgesics to lull and numb it, the way out is in transcendence. There are different paths to it, and how “successful” they are depends on intelligence, temperament of an individual. For most people, I guess, ordinary faith and trust in God are enough; many do not need it, because they are doing relatively well in life, and they do not possess a hyper-developed imagination, sensibility and “higher mind”. But if they have, like Proust did, and by temperament & intelligence are dissatisfied with the usual life’s lullabies – then they follow their own search for a fulfilled, abundant life. It was the case with Proust.

    But, enough with dry philosophizing.

    Proust was primarily a wisdom writer, not a philosopher. Obviously, for Proust, writing was a therapy for life’s pain & meaninglessness. He could not have been satisfied by ordinary consolations of a religion; nor with social movements, etc .; in fact, aside from sexual orientation, his is a rare case of a highly intelligent and hypersensitive individual who needs absolutes in life and does not find them- and then arrives to a kind of self-realization through hyperanalysis that, finally, results in earthly wisdom and re-affirms the magic & mesmerizing mystery of life’s abundance despite all its torments and disappointments .

    • Replies: @Lace
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Thanks for all that, quite wonderful, and I'll be re-reading it. I read Recherches in summer 2000; it took about two months. It says something about me that I then reread in French (way too long to do all in French, mine's not good enough--I've only read one novel straight through in French, La Maison de Rendezvous of Robbe-Grillet, one of my absolute favourites, as his (with Resnais) Last Year at Marienbad is, as well, in my top 10 of films, I've watched it many times, it's gorgeous) only the 100 pages or so in The Guermantes Way that are the afternoon and early evening of Oriane's salon. And then it says something else about me that I found Albertine a bore without name. I also loved the 'custard waves' at Balbec, and there was this sort of psychic thing that happened (I would never mention such things if their happening wasn't uncanny) when I went out to Far Rockaway Beach as I used to before the perfect part of it was destroyed (by Giuliani) and the waves were particularly sinous, and I thought quite explicitly of their 'being like custard'--before coming home and either that evening or the next day reading about the Custard Waves of Balbec... Where there were also 'creamed eggs' (not as anachronistic as he was making them, by the way: I make them frequently, and they're one of the best things) and St.-Loup's 'beautiful clothes' and monocle. But it was truly striking that I would sea Custard very consciously and explicitly and then read about the same within a day or two--there definitely had been no allusion to such an image before I got to the next part of the text.

    Gilles Deleuze wrote Proust and Signs, and there were several things that stick in the mind with Deleuze--with me, always, he is easily the 20th c. philosopher who has influenced me the most, he was quite a singular genius. Curious that he and Foucault were close and considered each other alter egos, but Foucault broke off the relationship, and it sounds as if he had somehow felt 'wounded' and that Deleuze didn't even understand why, and in any case, wasn't going to go and 'beg Foucault' for forgiveness for whatever it was or anything else. I've read a fair amount of Foucault, including all of the History of Sexuality volumes he finished, but Deleuze is the *hot one* for me. That's a dazzling intellect, and he can scare you it's so potent and protean. A lot of people who fall for his work don't know how to 'reterritorialize' at that moment that you must.

    Anyway, in Proust and Signs, Deleuze finally makes a formulation that ends up with "Homosexuality is the true test of love". That could mean a lot of things and is surely meant to be at least somewhat unfathomable. There is a homosexual aura to Recherches that you find in certain homosexual texts, one of which I've just finished on the recommendation of UR commenter 'The Latest in Decay'--Edmund White's Caricole, which has the devastating fictional portrait of Susan Sontag and her son David, but also, in this fantastically pyrotechnical way, writes in erotics-saturated way, but only about heterosexuality in quite worldly circles, which would always have plenty of homosexuals, whether in the 'intellectual patriots' or the 'rich conquerors' (it's not a specific place, but has a lot of the sense of Paris during the German occupation.) I think it's a masterpiece and am already so grateful to this UR person for telling me about it. There really are some highly cultured people here, yourself included, of course. I had only read a couple of White's books, and thought they were good (one because the main character turned out to be based on someone I was very close friends with in the 90s before I read the book or knew it was based on him, and the other is so long ago I can barely remember it, but that was explicitly homosexual and there was lots of hype at the time, A Boy's Own Story, the one that made Sontag give him a lot of pumping-up before he 'betrayed' her with this novel Caricole), but I did not think they were exactly great. They didn't make me want to read the rest of his oeuvre. I corresponded with him some about this character we knew, White in the early 70s when they were young, and me in the mid-90s, some years before he died: White I have never met, although he wanted some of my work and I had to leave it at his place 8 blocks up. I never heard back, and don't really have any idea what he thought of it. But that 'homosexual aura' is explicit, of course, even in Proust, with Jupien and Charlus in Sodom and Gomorrah and Charlus's evolution into S & M during WWI, so it's strange that this singular aura was still there in White's book (which I only finished a few days ago) while he has painstakingly made sure that there are not even allusions to homosexuality anywhere in the novel. Quite an unusual feat, and an odd one, since White is known as a 'gay writer'.



    This is a music thread and another not mentioned who would always be understood as a 'last name' is Schumann (and that one you don't have to worry about confusing--one has to say 'William Schuman', the last name only always means 'the Robert one'), and Deleuze thought you could learn all sorts of things from what is in Schumann's music (I need to refresh myself on that; he also had an extraordinary conversation with the POB ballerina Sylvie Guillem, which is also difficult, I half understand it.) Oh yeah, I am pretty sure that it was in this Deleuze & Guattari volume where he says something like--and your comment about Freud made me remember this--"Proust was going to *HAVE* his ego!" That made a strong impression on me, and I think I do know what that means. Because if Freud thought that the ego was the seat of suffering, so do many religions and even New Age religions which accept fiat currency so that you can buy your way out of 'ego'...but it is, of course, also the seat of Pleasure. What Deleuze said about this was much more formative for me when I got to it (about 2002) than any more talk about 'non-body'...hell, I was already living that way anyway, so this made me consistent, because I knew that reaching toward various ideas and ideals of transcendence was not going to take away any of the suffering that Denial of Pleasure would mean. Of course, that's a bit reckless, but obviously I take some risks, but it has not changed since, and I did throw out more of the explicitly 'spiritual' things, in that I don't think about them, although I've done a lot of yoga and still do. I don't even have to care what Deleuze meant about Proust's ego, and he cannot have known all about it. Or maybe not know about even our own, not all of it, but decide that that's the thing to want. Or some of us go that route.

    You say 'very homosexual', and it may be true of Proust despite all that Albertine business, but I have never known nor thought to research it, or read bios of any kind. I do know that there was an affair with the composer Reynaldo Hahn, but know no details about it. That's all I ever heard, and in one of the volumes, I think the same one with the Custard Waves, In the Budding Grove, he talks about 'cheap sexuality' and 'instant gratification' sorts of qualities he can observe in some and not see in others--so that would likely lead to his not being promiscuous at all. Of course, the superficial in my nature would like, as I said, Orianismes and the rest of all that long passage, but I was old enough to allow such an indulgence. You know, Nietzsche said that one of the things that made the Greeks so great was their shameless enjoyment of the superficial charms of life. We know that is not all, but there was a Met Museum exhibition about 20 years ago called *GREEK GOLD* from the 5th century B.C., and these were all in perfect shape still, with necklaces of tiny gold pomegranates and flowers--so it wasn't all seriousness at all times as it was for Socrates, of course. You could 'brush up your Greek' that you wouldn't have allowed yourself during The Symposium.


    results in earthly wisdom and re-affirms the magic & mesmerizing mystery of life’s abundance despite all its torments and disappointments .
     
    Yes, that is close to the ideas I was thinking about most, and move toward the most naturally. From the madeleine to the horses' hooves and the spoon and teacup, he says these recherches 'saved him from death'. Which is interesting, because you can't keep from thinking this literally--he found these abilities to *possess the past*--but just in time, though, and with especially formidable obstacles--his illness and the early final death at 51.

    I just looked up Hahn, and they apparently did all sorts of travels and projects together, but it says he was 'closeted' and had been 'critical of homosexuals and homosexuality in his letters', so I don't know anything about Proust's active sex life. And, of course, there is the man Proust and the 'Marcel' of the novel, but it still sounds as if there was some sort of bisexual component if he could find in Albertine so much interest (god knows I couldn't, but I was already too decadent for those later volumes.) There is that odd 'homosexual diva worship' that he would feel for Odette and Oriane, much like gay men have always 'worshipped' such as opera singers, ballet dancers, and some female pop singers. I had never heard of anything 'campy' like this in a serious literary work, or at least in a work as serious as Recherches. This was an interesting thing to encounter--I think he first sees Oriane not as the Duchesse de Guermantes but as the Princess des Laumes at the church in Combray and idolizes her. Later, he is almost flippant as he casts her aside as 'a mediocre woman', he makes fun of such things as the way she praises the 'Spinning Song' from The Flying Dutchman--the rest of the opera is not so much for sun-worshippers, he'd have thought. I must admit I've always quite liked it myself, and have been called both a 'power-worshipper' and 'sun-worshipper'. At this point, there's no use arguing, since it's probably true and whatever cards remain to be shown will follow for good or ill.
  331. @Lace
    @anon

    Thank you. It proves that even our sages can say wise-ass stupid things. Not a thing to recommend that Twain quote.

    Replies: @Dissident

    It proves that even our sages can say wise-ass stupid things.

    Perhaps but it does not appear to be Twain who originated the quote-in-question here.

    From Quote Investigator:
    Wagner’s Music Is Really Much Better Than It Sounds

    Mark Twain? Bill Nye? Ambrose Bierce? Punch Magazine?

    In conclusion, Bill Nye (Edgar Wilson Nye) should be credited with the closely related quips about classical music and Wagner’s music. Mark Twain helped to popularize the Wagner remark, but he credited Nye.

    Seems like yet another of the many quips that are popularly mis-attributed to the legendary Twain (born Samuel Langhorne Clemens).

    • Thanks: Lace
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Dissident

    Credit for random witty remarks tends to gravitate toward Twain and Churchill.

    Replies: @Dissident

  332. @Jack D
    @Dissident

    Hillary has not a genuine bone in her entire body. If she dropped Rodham, it was because they tested the polling and she polled better without it. As I mentioned before, VP Biden is now "Jobiden" for the same reason.

    Replies: @Dissident

    Hillary has not a genuine bone in her entire body.

    Remember when she cried (on-camera) while speaking at some event during (If I recall correctly) the 2008 primary season? And how people debated whether said display was contrived or not?

    Not that honesty and sincerity are traits that politicians are known to exemplify. And as clearly preferable as the President is to me over the alternative, to hear blindly partisan pro-Trump zealots harangue HRC, Biden or just about anyone else, while acting as if their man is above reproach, has always been a bit much to take.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Dissident

    She might cry real tears when finding that the flow of crooked money is reduced.

  333. @Hibernian
    @Richard S

    I have always been opposed to the IRA in the form that it has taken in my lifetime. The IRA of 1916 is another story.

    Replies: @Cortes, @Richard S

    The IRA of your lifetime was massively more successful in effecting political change than those clowns in 1916.

    This sissified “Free State-ism” we shall knock out of our southern comrades. A bit of Belfast efficiency is what they need 😉

    • Troll: Hibernian
    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Richard S

    They certainly blew up a lot of little kids. When they weren’t busy dropping dimes on each other to the Brits. Dollars to doughnuts that worthless pr**k Gerry Adams was Thatcher’s favorite informer.

  334. @Dissident
    @Lace


    It proves that even our sages can say wise-ass stupid things.
     
    Perhaps but it does not appear to be Twain who originated the quote-in-question here.

    From Quote Investigator:
    Wagner’s Music Is Really Much Better Than It Sounds

    Mark Twain? Bill Nye? Ambrose Bierce? Punch Magazine?
     

    In conclusion, Bill Nye (Edgar Wilson Nye) should be credited with the closely related quips about classical music and Wagner’s music. Mark Twain helped to popularize the Wagner remark, but he credited Nye.
     
    Seems like yet another of the many quips that are popularly mis-attributed to the legendary Twain (born Samuel Langhorne Clemens).

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Credit for random witty remarks tends to gravitate toward Twain and Churchill.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Steve Sailer


    Credit for random witty remarks tends to gravitate toward Twain and Churchill.
     
    In the case of Twain, at least, I've heard it said that the quips mis-attributed to him tend to be markedly less witty than any of the authentic ones. (Specifically, by former WNYC radio host Leonard Lopate and a guest of his, the etymologist Patricia T. O'Connor, if memory serves.)

    Also, similar to this case, the attribution to Churchill of the famous quote about democracy (the worst form of government-- except for all the others) is not entirely in error. Churchill did say the words in a speech, he just attributed them an unnamed third-party. ("It's been said..." if I recall correctly.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  335. @Steve Sailer
    @Dissident

    Credit for random witty remarks tends to gravitate toward Twain and Churchill.

    Replies: @Dissident

    Credit for random witty remarks tends to gravitate toward Twain and Churchill.

    In the case of Twain, at least, I’ve heard it said that the quips mis-attributed to him tend to be markedly less witty than any of the authentic ones. (Specifically, by former WNYC radio host Leonard Lopate and a guest of his, the etymologist Patricia T. O’Connor, if memory serves.)

    Also, similar to this case, the attribution to Churchill of the famous quote about democracy (the worst form of government– except for all the others) is not entirely in error. Churchill did say the words in a speech, he just attributed them an unnamed third-party. (“It’s been said…” if I recall correctly.)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Dissident

    Who said "Golf is a good walk spoiled?" I've seen it attributed to both Twain and Churchill.

    The Quote Investigator website is really good at tracking these down.

    A lot of them turn out to be random witticisms that were just going around in 1935 or whenever: being used as filler at the bottom of newspaper columns, that sort of thing.

  336. @Dissident
    @Steve Sailer


    Credit for random witty remarks tends to gravitate toward Twain and Churchill.
     
    In the case of Twain, at least, I've heard it said that the quips mis-attributed to him tend to be markedly less witty than any of the authentic ones. (Specifically, by former WNYC radio host Leonard Lopate and a guest of his, the etymologist Patricia T. O'Connor, if memory serves.)

    Also, similar to this case, the attribution to Churchill of the famous quote about democracy (the worst form of government-- except for all the others) is not entirely in error. Churchill did say the words in a speech, he just attributed them an unnamed third-party. ("It's been said..." if I recall correctly.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Who said “Golf is a good walk spoiled?” I’ve seen it attributed to both Twain and Churchill.

    The Quote Investigator website is really good at tracking these down.

    A lot of them turn out to be random witticisms that were just going around in 1935 or whenever: being used as filler at the bottom of newspaper columns, that sort of thing.

  337. @Dissident
    @Jack D


    Hillary has not a genuine bone in her entire body.
     
    Remember when she cried (on-camera) while speaking at some event during (If I recall correctly) the 2008 primary season? And how people debated whether said display was contrived or not?

    Not that honesty and sincerity are traits that politicians are known to exemplify. And as clearly preferable as the President is to me over the alternative, to hear blindly partisan pro-Trump zealots harangue HRC, Biden or just about anyone else, while acting as if their man is above reproach, has always been a bit much to take.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    She might cry real tears when finding that the flow of crooked money is reduced.

  338. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Lace

    Proust is-- here I agree with Forster- along with Dostoevsky & Tolstoy, the greatest of novelists. He is in the category of supreme writers.

    Maugham, in my opinion, remains a very powerful imperfect novelist in "Of Human Bondage"- apart from weak ending. The very limitation of the author's stubborn naturalist, atheist & essentially desperate, forced Stoic world-view only adds to the novel's strength.

    O'Hara is a master, but I think his bad (or good?) luck is that academics & arbiters of taste have given up on him.

    Proust is a life changing experience (I don't care for snobs who read him for social status). I guess he is, along a few core authors & texts- here I place Plato, NT, Confucius, Lao Tzu, parts of the Upanishads, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky & a few others who- now, this will sound inflated- reveal the zenith & the nadir of human destiny.

    Since my take on Proust would probably bore most readers, I'll insert More tag.

    Proust's erotic life (intensely homo) seems to me like a materia poetica for this monumental work, irradiating a specific sensibility of the mutable, all-seeing mind. Although his illness (asthma) and sexual orientation (homosexual) are undoubtedly of paramount importance, they do not inform the center of his work and worldview. Both Plato and Whitman were bi/homosexuals & yet there is no such pessimism in them about life which, as rendered in Proust's masterwork, is the practical embodiment of the Buddhist apothegm: "Everything is painful, everything is transient."

    How so and why?

    A sharpened metaphysical mind and an overdeveloped sensibility seem to necessarily lead to pessimism about mortality and Weltschmertz. This lament over transience is overcome in Goethe's "Faust" by religious epiphany at the end; in Plato's "Symposium," Socrates ascends through the ladder of Love, through the terrifying-liberating daemon Eros, to the source of all, the One who is Good and Love; in Whitman's theophanies erotic torments and other travails, from the suffering of a decaying body paralyzed by stroke and the "unpleasant" experiences he describes (amputations without anesthetics, except a few gulps of alcohol) - and do not provoke pessimism, because everything is actually "good" since All is the manifestation of the Being, God, the Tao ...

    But Proust has no God, at least as a compass needle (although he personally had a religious consciousness - for example, a month before his death he wrote to an acquaintance, the Catholic poet Francis Jammes, to pray to St. Joseph for him; when he died, his maid Celeste gave him, at his request, the Rosary of Mary directly from Jerusalem, supposedly a powerful relic). Thus, in Proust's case, it is not an ideological atheism, but a complex psyche which, because of richness of insight and wealth of experience, is necessarily focused on transcendence - and yet, cannot find it in a more traditional way.

    The English writer Happold divided mysticism, roughly, into three types: theistic (some tampering with God), the mysticism of Nature or pantheism (one can find it in poets & in versions of Taoism, for example), and "mysticism of the soul". Having in mind his path of introversion and self-analysis. Proust obviously falls into the third category.

    In this category are all the usual contemplatives like Zen meditations practitioners, parts of yoga, etc., but Proust was not a dogmatic meditator and structured contemplative practice would be boring to him. Perhaps it is not an extravagant thesis that puts his creative undertaking close to the Hindu-Buddhist effort to separate oneself from the dark energies of Tamas binding one to the Samsaric world through introspection and to come, gradually, to the intense joy of inner Self. In the case of Proust, this self-analysis is not only a chewing and reliving of life's torments (and some joys), but also a heroic path towards overcoming of ego-personality, albeit without dogmatic religious goals. It is a path of self-realization of a non-dogmatic sage. Here he was well served by the decadent quasi-religion of Art as something eternal, which in the absence of a muse (no male Beatrice, that would be absurd & hyper-comical), or religious dynamics which suffused, in various ways, Plato and Dostoevsky - turned out for him to be the royal path to salvation — whatever that meant.

    According to Freud, ego is the seat of suffering. For a developed consciousness, if there are no temporary emotional-mental analgesics to lull and numb it, the way out is in transcendence. There are different paths to it, and how "successful" they are depends on intelligence, temperament of an individual. For most people, I guess, ordinary faith and trust in God are enough; many do not need it, because they are doing relatively well in life, and they do not possess a hyper-developed imagination, sensibility and "higher mind". But if they have, like Proust did, and by temperament & intelligence are dissatisfied with the usual life's lullabies - then they follow their own search for a fulfilled, abundant life. It was the case with Proust.

    But, enough with dry philosophizing.

    Proust was primarily a wisdom writer, not a philosopher. Obviously, for Proust, writing was a therapy for life's pain & meaninglessness. He could not have been satisfied by ordinary consolations of a religion; nor with social movements, etc .; in fact, aside from sexual orientation, his is a rare case of a highly intelligent and hypersensitive individual who needs absolutes in life and does not find them- and then arrives to a kind of self-realization through hyperanalysis that, finally, results in earthly wisdom and re-affirms the magic & mesmerizing mystery of life's abundance despite all its torments and disappointments .

    Replies: @Lace

    Thanks for all that, quite wonderful, and I’ll be re-reading it. I read Recherches in summer 2000; it took about two months. It says something about me that I then reread in French (way too long to do all in French, mine’s not good enough–I’ve only read one novel straight through in French, La Maison de Rendezvous of Robbe-Grillet, one of my absolute favourites, as his (with Resnais) Last Year at Marienbad is, as well, in my top 10 of films, I’ve watched it many times, it’s gorgeous) only the 100 pages or so in The Guermantes Way that are the afternoon and early evening of Oriane’s salon. And then it says something else about me that I found Albertine a bore without name. I also loved the ‘custard waves’ at Balbec, and there was this sort of psychic thing that happened (I would never mention such things if their happening wasn’t uncanny) when I went out to Far Rockaway Beach as I used to before the perfect part of it was destroyed (by Giuliani) and the waves were particularly sinous, and I thought quite explicitly of their ‘being like custard’–before coming home and either that evening or the next day reading about the Custard Waves of Balbec… Where there were also ‘creamed eggs’ (not as anachronistic as he was making them, by the way: I make them frequently, and they’re one of the best things) and St.-Loup’s ‘beautiful clothes’ and monocle. But it was truly striking that I would sea Custard very consciously and explicitly and then read about the same within a day or two–there definitely had been no allusion to such an image before I got to the next part of the text.

    Gilles Deleuze wrote Proust and Signs, and there were several things that stick in the mind with Deleuze–with me, always, he is easily the 20th c. philosopher who has influenced me the most, he was quite a singular genius. Curious that he and Foucault were close and considered each other alter egos, but Foucault broke off the relationship, and it sounds as if he had somehow felt ‘wounded’ and that Deleuze didn’t even understand why, and in any case, wasn’t going to go and ‘beg Foucault’ for forgiveness for whatever it was or anything else. I’ve read a fair amount of Foucault, including all of the History of Sexuality volumes he finished, but Deleuze is the *hot one* for me. That’s a dazzling intellect, and he can scare you it’s so potent and protean. A lot of people who fall for his work don’t know how to ‘reterritorialize’ at that moment that you must.

    Anyway, in Proust and Signs, Deleuze finally makes a formulation that ends up with “Homosexuality is the true test of love”. That could mean a lot of things and is surely meant to be at least somewhat unfathomable. There is a homosexual aura to Recherches that you find in certain homosexual texts, one of which I’ve just finished on the recommendation of UR commenter ‘The Latest in Decay’–Edmund White’s Caricole, which has the devastating fictional portrait of Susan Sontag and her son David, but also, in this fantastically pyrotechnical way, writes in erotics-saturated way, but only about heterosexuality in quite worldly circles, which would always have plenty of homosexuals, whether in the ‘intellectual patriots’ or the ‘rich conquerors’ (it’s not a specific place, but has a lot of the sense of Paris during the German occupation.) I think it’s a masterpiece and am already so grateful to this UR person for telling me about it. There really are some highly cultured people here, yourself included, of course. I had only read a couple of White’s books, and thought they were good (one because the main character turned out to be based on someone I was very close friends with in the 90s before I read the book or knew it was based on him, and the other is so long ago I can barely remember it, but that was explicitly homosexual and there was lots of hype at the time, A Boy’s Own Story, the one that made Sontag give him a lot of pumping-up before he ‘betrayed’ her with this novel Caricole), but I did not think they were exactly great. They didn’t make me want to read the rest of his oeuvre. I corresponded with him some about this character we knew, White in the early 70s when they were young, and me in the mid-90s, some years before he died: White I have never met, although he wanted some of my work and I had to leave it at his place 8 blocks up. I never heard back, and don’t really have any idea what he thought of it. But that ‘homosexual aura’ is explicit, of course, even in Proust, with Jupien and Charlus in Sodom and Gomorrah and Charlus’s evolution into S & M during WWI, so it’s strange that this singular aura was still there in White’s book (which I only finished a few days ago) while he has painstakingly made sure that there are not even allusions to homosexuality anywhere in the novel. Quite an unusual feat, and an odd one, since White is known as a ‘gay writer’.

    [MORE]

    This is a music thread and another not mentioned who would always be understood as a ‘last name’ is Schumann (and that one you don’t have to worry about confusing–one has to say ‘William Schuman’, the last name only always means ‘the Robert one’), and Deleuze thought you could learn all sorts of things from what is in Schumann’s music (I need to refresh myself on that; he also had an extraordinary conversation with the POB ballerina Sylvie Guillem, which is also difficult, I half understand it.) Oh yeah, I am pretty sure that it was in this Deleuze & Guattari volume where he says something like–and your comment about Freud made me remember this–“Proust was going to *HAVE* his ego!” That made a strong impression on me, and I think I do know what that means. Because if Freud thought that the ego was the seat of suffering, so do many religions and even New Age religions which accept fiat currency so that you can buy your way out of ‘ego’…but it is, of course, also the seat of Pleasure. What Deleuze said about this was much more formative for me when I got to it (about 2002) than any more talk about ‘non-body’…hell, I was already living that way anyway, so this made me consistent, because I knew that reaching toward various ideas and ideals of transcendence was not going to take away any of the suffering that Denial of Pleasure would mean. Of course, that’s a bit reckless, but obviously I take some risks, but it has not changed since, and I did throw out more of the explicitly ‘spiritual’ things, in that I don’t think about them, although I’ve done a lot of yoga and still do. I don’t even have to care what Deleuze meant about Proust’s ego, and he cannot have known all about it. Or maybe not know about even our own, not all of it, but decide that that’s the thing to want. Or some of us go that route.

    You say ‘very homosexual’, and it may be true of Proust despite all that Albertine business, but I have never known nor thought to research it, or read bios of any kind. I do know that there was an affair with the composer Reynaldo Hahn, but know no details about it. That’s all I ever heard, and in one of the volumes, I think the same one with the Custard Waves, In the Budding Grove, he talks about ‘cheap sexuality’ and ‘instant gratification’ sorts of qualities he can observe in some and not see in others–so that would likely lead to his not being promiscuous at all. Of course, the superficial in my nature would like, as I said, Orianismes and the rest of all that long passage, but I was old enough to allow such an indulgence. You know, Nietzsche said that one of the things that made the Greeks so great was their shameless enjoyment of the superficial charms of life. We know that is not all, but there was a Met Museum exhibition about 20 years ago called *GREEK GOLD* from the 5th century B.C., and these were all in perfect shape still, with necklaces of tiny gold pomegranates and flowers–so it wasn’t all seriousness at all times as it was for Socrates, of course. You could ‘brush up your Greek’ that you wouldn’t have allowed yourself during The Symposium.

    results in earthly wisdom and re-affirms the magic & mesmerizing mystery of life’s abundance despite all its torments and disappointments .

    Yes, that is close to the ideas I was thinking about most, and move toward the most naturally. From the madeleine to the horses’ hooves and the spoon and teacup, he says these recherches ‘saved him from death’. Which is interesting, because you can’t keep from thinking this literally–he found these abilities to *possess the past*–but just in time, though, and with especially formidable obstacles–his illness and the early final death at 51.

    I just looked up Hahn, and they apparently did all sorts of travels and projects together, but it says he was ‘closeted’ and had been ‘critical of homosexuals and homosexuality in his letters’, so I don’t know anything about Proust’s active sex life. And, of course, there is the man Proust and the ‘Marcel’ of the novel, but it still sounds as if there was some sort of bisexual component if he could find in Albertine so much interest (god knows I couldn’t, but I was already too decadent for those later volumes.) There is that odd ‘homosexual diva worship’ that he would feel for Odette and Oriane, much like gay men have always ‘worshipped’ such as opera singers, ballet dancers, and some female pop singers. I had never heard of anything ‘campy’ like this in a serious literary work, or at least in a work as serious as Recherches. This was an interesting thing to encounter–I think he first sees Oriane not as the Duchesse de Guermantes but as the Princess des Laumes at the church in Combray and idolizes her. Later, he is almost flippant as he casts her aside as ‘a mediocre woman’, he makes fun of such things as the way she praises the ‘Spinning Song’ from The Flying Dutchman–the rest of the opera is not so much for sun-worshippers, he’d have thought. I must admit I’ve always quite liked it myself, and have been called both a ‘power-worshipper’ and ‘sun-worshipper’. At this point, there’s no use arguing, since it’s probably true and whatever cards remain to be shown will follow for good or ill.

    • Thanks: Bardon Kaldian
  339. @Reg Cæsar
    @Dissident


    I always wondered why the former First Lady dropped the hyphenation...
     
    Ask your friendly neighborhood focus group.

    Kim Ode of the Minneapolis Star Tribune did a column, in early 2001 I think, about married women keeping their maiden names. I researching it, she was stunned to find out that as late as the opening of the 21st century, not even 10% did. The other 90% happily went with their husbands'.

    Replies: @Dissident

    Kim Ode of the Minneapolis Star Tribune did a column, in early 2001 I think, about married women keeping their maiden names. I[n] researching it, she was stunned to find out that as late as the opening of the 21st century, not even 10% did. The other 90% happily went with their husbands’.

    That was well before The Great Awokening, though. It would be interesting to see how the numbers compare now. So much else has changed dramatically over the past two decades.

    As for our esteemed former First Lady, I wanted to add that I used to make a point of using the Rodham when referring to her in order to highlight the apparent hypocrisy of the woman being marketed to us as the foremost strong, independent, accomplished woman reverting to the exclusive use of her husband’s surname as her own.

  340. Some individuals are smarter than others, some are more gifted in mathematics, some in basketball, some in music. Some periods and cultures have produced an abundance of great music, while others have produced great science. What never happens is uniformity. So it would be astonishing if Dede were considered “as being equally worthy of attention” as Brahms. Diversity *means* very few great composers, very many mediocre ones. Ask Salieri.

  341. @Richard S
    @Hibernian

    The IRA of your lifetime was massively more successful in effecting political change than those clowns in 1916.

    This sissified “Free State-ism” we shall knock out of our southern comrades. A bit of Belfast efficiency is what they need ;-)

    Replies: @JMcG

    They certainly blew up a lot of little kids. When they weren’t busy dropping dimes on each other to the Brits. Dollars to doughnuts that worthless pr**k Gerry Adams was Thatcher’s favorite informer.

    • LOL: Richard S
  342. @Tex
    @Pop Warner


    Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart isn’t Mozart’s long name. His full name at baptism was Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart.
     
    Egads! What does this do to "Rock Me Amadeus"?!? Not only does Johann "Hans" Hölzel one-name Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart, but it's the wrong name!

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

    “Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus” will never have been Mozart’s day-to-day name, but merely what a priest wrote into the baptismal record.

    Mozart himself, after many a variant, ended up mostly writing “Wolfgang Amadé”.

  343. @Old Palo Altan
    @vinteuil

    Tried both last night. Love Fischer-Dieskau, Furtwängler (and was interested to read that he liked Mahler's songs but not his symphonies) and Ferrier, but don't tend to hear much Walter (I was impressed by his quality here however).

    But still ... well, you know what I am going to say, so instead I'll just remark that I'm glad somebody likes him.

    And 13! So true, and just wait till that is 60 years in your past if you think you have nostalgic regrets now.

    Replies: @vinteuil

    Love Fischer-Dieskau

    Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau was, in contempt of question, the greatest singer ever. He could do anything, and do it more beautifully & more sensitively than anybody else.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    @vinteuil

    Even in roles to which he was not naturally suited, like Wagner's Hans Sachs or Verdi's Falstaff, he beat all.

    , @Old Palo Altan
    @vinteuil

    As you were discovering him, along with Mahler, when you were 13, so I, at the same age, was discovering him, along with Heinrich Schütz. in Symphoniae Sacrae, opus 6. That was in 1961.

    Venite ad me was one of my favourites, and it is to be found on Youtube.

    I find that even today I prefer the spare, chaste sound one finds there to the needlessly warm, even passionate manner of modern interpreters.

  344. @vinteuil
    @Old Palo Altan


    Love Fischer-Dieskau
     
    Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau was, in contempt of question, the greatest singer ever. He could do anything, and do it more beautifully & more sensitively than anybody else.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Old Palo Altan

    Even in roles to which he was not naturally suited, like Wagner’s Hans Sachs or Verdi’s Falstaff, he beat all.

  345. @vinteuil
    @Old Palo Altan


    Love Fischer-Dieskau
     
    Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau was, in contempt of question, the greatest singer ever. He could do anything, and do it more beautifully & more sensitively than anybody else.

    Replies: @vinteuil, @Old Palo Altan

    As you were discovering him, along with Mahler, when you were 13, so I, at the same age, was discovering him, along with Heinrich Schütz. in Symphoniae Sacrae, opus 6. That was in 1961.

    Venite ad me was one of my favourites, and it is to be found on Youtube.

    I find that even today I prefer the spare, chaste sound one finds there to the needlessly warm, even passionate manner of modern interpreters.

  346. @jim jones
    Is there any area of human endeavour where Europeans have not wiped the floor with all comers?

    Replies: @James Speaks, @tr, @anonymous as usual

    Naval maneuvers under sail,
    allusive lyric poetry,
    flower arranging,
    clothing of beautiful women,
    swordmaking,
    the writing of military history,
    paper making,
    balloon and kite making,
    allusive drawings in dark ink,
    non-trivial games of strategy,
    and a few others.

    Then there are the 20th century Asians like Ramanujan who excelled in Western mathematics and several 20 and 21st century classical musicians who are, at least, primus or prima inter pares among their peers.

  347. @Reg Cæsar
    @Dago Shoes


    their surnames only … da Vinci
     
    Leonardo was his name. "Da Vinci" was his address. Indeed, that's one way to tell an expert from a poseur.

    What kind of dago are you, anyway, to make that mistake. And Buffalo Joe misspelled "Mussolini". Honor your heritage!

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Dago Shoes

    I know it was his address … but that’s how most folks know of him — I’ll venture that if you asked 100 people what his first name is, maybe 8-10 would know it …

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS