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Screenshot 2017-12-18 00.53.44From The Conversation:

Study reveals racial inequality in Mexico, disproving its ‘race-blind’ rhetoric

by Daniel Zizumbo-Colunga

Some of this is genetic, while some is likely due to indoor/outdoor labor class differences: i.e., people with a lot of education get office jobs while people with little education get outdoor jobs and tans.

In Latin America, skin tone genes often don’t correlate as much with other genes as in North America.

Because there is more of a color continuum than a color line, there is more of a premium in Latin America put on genes specifically for fairness: for instance, the fairer sister is likely to marry up the social ladder and the darker sister down.

Rinse and repeat this kind of selection over many generations and you can get a lot of disjunction between looks and ancestry. Mexicans made a whole lot of movies in the 1950s about fair upscale couples who have a dark “throwback” babies. In general, in Mexican movies, African looks were seen as more socially scandalous than Amerindian looks.

 
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  1. Oh, and by the way #metoo has ensnared Linda Sarsour.

    Some interesting quotes:
    “Asmi claims one of Majed’s alleged favorite past times was sneaking up on her with a full erection.”

    “She alleges she was dismissed by Sarsour outright. “She called me a liar because ‘Something like this didn’t happen to women who looked like me,’” (Basically, you are too ugly to be abused)

    “According to Fathelbab, Sarsour threatened legal and professional damage if she went public with the sexual assault claims.”

    “Jaber told me my stalker was a ‘God-fearing man’ who was ‘always at the Mosque,’ so he wouldn’t do something like that,” Fathelbab claims. “He wanted to make it loud and clear this guy was a good Muslim and I was a bad Muslim for “complaining.”

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/17/linda-sarsour-accused-of-enabling-sexual-assault-against-woman-who-worked-for-her/

    • Replies: @CK
    Sometimes biter bit is delicious.
    , @ThreeCranes
    In the first place, any man who thinks that ejaculating on a woman’s thigh is an irresistible come on (sorry) is seriously clueless about what women find sexy. As a start, these men should acquaint themselves with what turns women on by reading a book about women's fantasies. They differ from ours.

    But on to the point, "(Basically, you are too ugly to be abused)" and also from your linked article, this quote; “They made it about her weight, saying she was not attractive enough to be harassed and then swept it under the rug”.

    The inverse applies as well. For every gal who is too ugly to be considered as a likely candidate for having been victimized there is a dude who is too lowly to be accused of abuse. (They should pair up)

    Somewhere earlier (I can't remember the term) Steve came up with a name for what is at the center of this phenomenon and as usual, his nose has put him on the right track: women's vanity. If an accusation redounds to a woman's credit by reflecting how seemingly irresistibly attractive she is then it will fly. However there is an important caveat at play and that is that it’s only profitable if the harassed woman brings down a big name. The bigger the better.

    To bring credit to a gal she has to bag and make a trophy out of an alpha elephant. Exposing the office dweeb isn't going to earn a gal enough points to make the whole effort worthwhile--diminishes her even, to be seen as the fantasy of a low-ranking male.
    , @Autochthon
    Who the Hell are any of these people? Should we know? Should we care? I'm not trying to be a smartass. Ive never heard of any of these people in my life, despite consuming far more news and popular culture than I wish I did and than anyone probably should.
    , @J.Ross
    >good Muslim
    >not "[taking] a slave of the right hand"
    >not punishing a publicly underclothed women
    Hmmm ...
  2. It’s a fairly safe heuristic to run, that in a choice between any horrid, unkind stereotype and any politically correct goodthink homily, the odds are heavily stacked that reality is reflected in the stereotype.

    • Replies: @istevefan
    A stereotype can never take hold unless there is a kernel of truth in it.
  3. “Zizumbo-Colunga” … Sounds like a ride at Busch Gardens.

    :p

    • LOL: fish
  4. Mexicans made a whole lot of movies in the 1950s about fair upscale couples who have a dark “throwback” babies.

    Skin tone is similarly socially charged in India. All Bollywood stars and starlets are notably pale skinned. The classified ads for marriage partners often belabour the fair skinned attributes of its subject or specifiy it as a requirement for a prospective bride.

    See for yourselves – just search the page for ‘fair’.

    • Replies: @Wally
    The practically all euro white Mexican Congress:

    https://www.jsg.utexas.edu/lacp/files/mexico-congress.jpg
  5. This sliding scale of skin tones happens in African American culture and some Asian cultures, too (hence, all the skin lightening creams). I think Brazil too.

    I wonder if it is an innate biological selection preference or if it is more social/culture. Maybe a response to the Euro-Anglo global dominance the last few centuries?

    • Replies: @Travis
    Asian skin whitening has a tradition that stretches back 2,000 years..."The feminine ideal during the Han period for women of the court was almost unearthly white, white skin. Moon-like roundish faces, long black hair. You can see how a culture that maintained that as an ideal might continue with an ideal that light skin equals beauty," said Anne Rose Kitagawa, assistant curator of Japanese art at Harvard’s Sackler Museum. The beauty industries in Taiwan emphasize different skin tones and say that if you can be as white as Japanese women you can be as beautiful as a cherry blossom.

    It's not surprising why Japan has such an abundance of whitening products. The preference for white, flawless skin has been around forever in Japan - long before the influences of western culture. There's even an old Japanese proverb that translates to "white skin covers the seven flaws," meaning that even a woman with unattractive facial features can seem beautiful if she has fair skin. as early as the third century Japanese women used bags of rice bran and supplies of nightingale droppings to whiten their skin.
  6. Mexicans made a whole lot of movies in the 1950s about fair upscale couples who have a dark “throwback” babies.

    I’m going to guess that with the availability of genetic testing (and brides being aware of it), there are a lot fewer “throwback” babies among the upper classes in Mexico these days.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    Or maybe the wives are screwing the gardener less often.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    The "throwback" is a baby who looks more black than the parents. On the long list of Spanish racial categories, it's called a Saltapatras. A Saltapatras is the product of a mixed-race marriage, especially when the racial mixture of one party is "up in the air," or Tentenelaire.

    Here is one version of the list:

    Peninsular = Spaniard born on the Iberian Peninsula (Spain)
    Creole (Criollo) = Child of a Peninsular but born in Mexico (New World)
    Mestizo = Spanish father and Indian mother
    Castizo = Mestizo and a Creole
    Cholo, Coyote = Indian and a Mestizo
    Mulatto = Peninsular and a Black.
    Zambo or Cafuzo = Black and an Indian
    Lobo = Indian man and a black woman
    Chino = Peninsular man and an Indian woman
    Jibaro = Lobo and a China
    Cuarteron (Quadroon)= Mulatto and a White
    Terceron (Octoroon) = Quadroon and a White.
    Tentenelaire = (translates as "up in the air") Terceron and a Mulatto, or Chino and Indian
    Albarazado = Tentenelaire and Mulatto, or Jibaro and Mulata
    Cambujo = Child of Albazardo and black
    Barcino = Child of Albarazado and Indian
    Calpamulato = Child of Barcino and Cambuja
    Euromeztizo = Indian with Spanish characteristics dominating
    Indomeztizo = A Spaniard with Indian characteristics dominating.
    Pardo = Colored, can be used to refer to any mixed race person.
    Saltapatras = a genetic throwback. It usually refers to the product of a mixed-race marriage in which the offspring looks more black than the parents.
  7. That graph looks a little too perfect, like when you plan out your faked data and get distracted and forget to run the data points through the plus/minus randomizer before publication.

    • Agree: Bill B.
  8. @rogue-one
    Oh, and by the way #metoo has ensnared Linda Sarsour.

    Some interesting quotes:
    "Asmi claims one of Majed’s alleged favorite past times was sneaking up on her with a full erection."

    "She alleges she was dismissed by Sarsour outright. “She called me a liar because ‘Something like this didn’t happen to women who looked like me,'” (Basically, you are too ugly to be abused)

    "According to Fathelbab, Sarsour threatened legal and professional damage if she went public with the sexual assault claims."

    “Jaber told me my stalker was a ‘God-fearing man’ who was ‘always at the Mosque,’ so he wouldn’t do something like that,” Fathelbab claims. “He wanted to make it loud and clear this guy was a good Muslim and I was a bad Muslim for “complaining.”

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/17/linda-sarsour-accused-of-enabling-sexual-assault-against-woman-who-worked-for-her/

    Sometimes biter bit is delicious.

  9. @rogue-one
    Oh, and by the way #metoo has ensnared Linda Sarsour.

    Some interesting quotes:
    "Asmi claims one of Majed’s alleged favorite past times was sneaking up on her with a full erection."

    "She alleges she was dismissed by Sarsour outright. “She called me a liar because ‘Something like this didn’t happen to women who looked like me,'” (Basically, you are too ugly to be abused)

    "According to Fathelbab, Sarsour threatened legal and professional damage if she went public with the sexual assault claims."

    “Jaber told me my stalker was a ‘God-fearing man’ who was ‘always at the Mosque,’ so he wouldn’t do something like that,” Fathelbab claims. “He wanted to make it loud and clear this guy was a good Muslim and I was a bad Muslim for “complaining.”

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/17/linda-sarsour-accused-of-enabling-sexual-assault-against-woman-who-worked-for-her/

    In the first place, any man who thinks that ejaculating on a woman’s thigh is an irresistible come on (sorry) is seriously clueless about what women find sexy. As a start, these men should acquaint themselves with what turns women on by reading a book about women’s fantasies. They differ from ours.

    But on to the point, “(Basically, you are too ugly to be abused)” and also from your linked article, this quote; “They made it about her weight, saying she was not attractive enough to be harassed and then swept it under the rug”.

    The inverse applies as well. For every gal who is too ugly to be considered as a likely candidate for having been victimized there is a dude who is too lowly to be accused of abuse. (They should pair up)

    Somewhere earlier (I can’t remember the term) Steve came up with a name for what is at the center of this phenomenon and as usual, his nose has put him on the right track: women’s vanity. If an accusation redounds to a woman’s credit by reflecting how seemingly irresistibly attractive she is then it will fly. However there is an important caveat at play and that is that it’s only profitable if the harassed woman brings down a big name. The bigger the better.

    To bring credit to a gal she has to bag and make a trophy out of an alpha elephant. Exposing the office dweeb isn’t going to earn a gal enough points to make the whole effort worthwhile–diminishes her even, to be seen as the fantasy of a low-ranking male.

  10. I’m unfamiliar with mid-century Mexican cinema. Where could one read more about the type of film Steve describes above?

    • Replies: @Anon
    Sailer wants to ignite the commentariat. The only well-known movie with "dark" babies is "Angelitos Negros", in which the dark baby is not mestizo or brown, but mulatto, black. Melodramatic in tone, the moral characters in the movie love the baby. Part of the "teaching" about correct moral choices the media did back then.

    The Spanish Crown promoted marriage anytime a baby was in the stakes, (and they kept clear records and understanding of the mixes), that is why there is a mixed race, not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.

    Mexico is not overall a racist country, it is simply very classist (class conscious or discriminatory). Pure Indians, of which there there are few left, are often pitied. The U.S. is racist (race conscious or discriminatory) and more classist than it publicly admits.
  11. Entirely off-topic, but here’s an ultra-iSteveish subject I only recently became aware of: the now politically imperiled President of Peru Pedro Pablo Kuczynski, father of former (I think) NYT “journalist” Alex Kuczynski, whom I first heard of about twenty years ago when she gratuitously outed my old friend Ed Conlon as the pseudonymous NYPD-officer author of a series of pieces in The New Yorker.

    Steve Sailer will really want to read President Kuczynski’s Wikipedia entry, containing as it does such sentences as:

    He is the first cousin of film director Jean-Luc Godard.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Pablo_Kuczynski

    • Replies: @DFH

    As is often true among educated persons of Polish origin, Kuczynski is a polyglot, fluent in Spanish, English, German and French
     
    I particularly enjoyed this sentence, although I would hardly describe him as 'of Polish origin'.
    , @Steve Sailer
    I went to a museum exhibit in L.A. in 2007. The exhibit had posters from a number of mid-century Mexican films on the topic.
  12. Mestizo and Amerindian illegal alien invaders have been invading the United States for half a century and more. The evil WASP / Jew ruling class of the United States is colluding with the mostly White ruling class of Mexico to keep the border open and the invasion unchecked.

    The Alt-Right must make the bold pledge to begin mass deportations of all illegal alien invaders in the United States. Any attempt by President Trump to collude with the Democrat Party to give amnesty to any illegal alien invaders, under any circumstances, should be called out as a threat to US national security.

    Kate Steinle is dead and all her future children will be unborn because ordinary Americans are too cowardly to stop the WASP / Jew ruling class from snuffing out our nation with legal and illegal immigration.

    IMMIGRATION MORATORIUM NOW!

    DEPORT ALL ILLEGAL ALIEN INVADERS NOW!

    MASS DEPORTATIONS OF FOREIGNERS NOW!

    White Core Americans must destroy the open borders mass immigration supporting WASP / Jew ruling class or we’ll see 100 million more Third Worlders invade the United States.

    The evil WASP / Jew ruling class puts the interests of foreigners ahead of the interests of the European Christian ancestral core of the United States.

    Amerindian or Mestizo or Spaniard or German or Lebanese?

  13. Some commenters to the article pointed out what’s actually happening, and Daniel Zizumbo-Colunga’s dishonest twisting of their statements (“How could low IQ make your skin dark?”) in his responses seems to imply that he also knows, but dare not admit it.

  14. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @TGGP
    I'm unfamiliar with mid-century Mexican cinema. Where could one read more about the type of film Steve describes above?

    Sailer wants to ignite the commentariat. The only well-known movie with “dark” babies is “Angelitos Negros”, in which the dark baby is not mestizo or brown, but mulatto, black. Melodramatic in tone, the moral characters in the movie love the baby. Part of the “teaching” about correct moral choices the media did back then.

    The Spanish Crown promoted marriage anytime a baby was in the stakes, (and they kept clear records and understanding of the mixes), that is why there is a mixed race, not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.

    Mexico is not overall a racist country, it is simply very classist (class conscious or discriminatory). Pure Indians, of which there there are few left, are often pitied. The U.S. is racist (race conscious or discriminatory) and more classist than it publicly admits.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    The Spanish Crown promoted marriage anytime a baby was in the stakes, (and they kept clear records and understanding of the mixes), that is why there is a mixed race, not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.
     
    Mixed-marriages were a necessity in Mexico; there simply weren't enough European women to go around.Hence, Spanish men had to turn to Amerind women for sexual release. There was also a lot of de facto polygyny/concubinage (the Church just looked the other way). Mainland Anglo-America, in contrast, had a much more favorable sex ratio between European men and women. In the Massachusetts Bay Colony, for example, it was nearly 50/50.

    not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.
     
    No, the Spaniards favored things like the Encomienda and Repartimiento, brutal systems for extracting labor from Amerinds for the benefit of Spanish overlords

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repartimiento

    Mexico is not overall a racist country, it is simply very classist (class conscious or discriminatory).
     
    Class and race in Mexico tend to go together.....

    Pure Indians, of which there there are few left, are often pitied.
     
    Lots of those Mestizos are 75% + Amerind....and there are lots of 100% Amerinds in places like Yucatan....

    According to the National Commission for the Development of Indigenous Peoples (Comisión Nacional para el Desarrollo de los Pueblos Indígenas, or CDI in Spanish) and the INEGI (official census institute), in 2015, 25,694,928 people in Mexico self-identify as being indigenous[3] of many different ethnic groups,[4] which constitute 21.5% of Mexico's population.[1][2]

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Mexico
    , @anonguy

    Sailer wants to ignite the commentariat.
     
    That is what I thought. Must be a slow news day for Steve.
    , @anon
    In fact the conquistadors were very efficient in exterminating huge numbers of Indians. Probably more Indians were killed in Mexico in a few years then died in the whole history of settlement of the USA.
    , @Disordered
    As a Latin from a similar country, I would have to say Mexico is racist - they just display it in a different way, much more subtle.

    Since the conquistadors desperately needed women and slave labor, as well as having the excuse/mandate to evangelize the world for the Pope, obviously intermarriage was allowed alongside forced conversion and serfdom schemes such as encomiendas, misiones, mitas, obrajes, etc. Anglo settlers usually had enough women for themselves; and since they weren't employees of the Crown sent to extract all they could like the conquistadors, Anglos didn't bother integrating Indians into society. You could say they were racist and genocidal then, and that perhaps they are too race-conscious now; however, I would argue that Latins are less race-conscious but more racist in effect, given that when it comes to classes, they are incredibly class-conscious - and modern classes in Latin America are likewise invariably connected to the old Spanish racial caste system, which has survived in spite of Latin America having achieved independence nearly two centuries ago now. Why would that be, if indeed all races and cultures are equally able to achieve enlightenment? And no, we really cannot blame the gringos for absolutely everything. The conquistadors, maybe a bit more, but again, not absolutely everything.

    Said caste system, by the way, as you mention, was established by the Crown itself - isn't that incredibly race-conscious too, monitoring every nook and cranny of your family tree and making up many terms? The Anglos may have had an unfair one-drop rule regarding blacks that turned blacks into second class citizens, but the reverse one-drop rule of Latins (just one drop of white makes you not an Indian and not a black) effectively meant that the mixed ones were second class and the fully-brown-and-black were now third class. And this establishment survives to the present day; the only reason we don't have race wars is that intermarriage worked to a degree to prevent them, while also on the other hand enabling the class wars that invariably arise every generation. Right now for example, we are seeing mostly-brown and worker-peasant-bureaucrat-led Socialismo del Siglo 21 swing back to 90s-style elite-friendly, OAS-friendly, IMF-friendly white and mixed-middle-class right-of-center parties. Which will probably lose power as they get too greedy... again.

    Just like the peninsulares of old, the white Latin criollo elite likewise holds its nose when it sees their daughter going out with someone that looks too "poor", who invariably also tends to look more mestizo, Indian or black. And likewise, many mestizos and mulattos (who can be mixed in many degrees, usually less than half) tend to aspire to be just like the white criollos when they get paid. Just like in America, blacks and Hispanics love white women - even if they prefer that they have bigger butts and tans.

    And sure, Indians always get the Holocaust tear-eyed treatment come October 12 by the world's left, but no one in Latin America dares to call it "Día de los Indios" - first because we are not dumb and realize Indians rather remember their own ancestral holidays and not the day their civilizations ended, but also because we are not dumb and realize most of our ancestors were conquistadors or were screwed by one. Not to mention, without conquistadors, maybe just now we would be figuring out that wheels could be used to haul things, or finally leaving behind apocalyptic hieroglyphs about 2012. Besides, Indians either live willfully abstracted from the modern Latin world (which does not mind keeping them stuck at the bottom of the ladder, anyway), or try unsuccessfully to force utopian values on the rest of society through indigenist and leftist organizations (the latter usually pushed by Indian leaders who have selfish political purposes and don't care about their communities; and I say utopian because one of their common demands is universal free access to water). Therefore, Indians in Latin America are seldom taken seriously in the political realm, unless it is to use them; sadly so, because some of them would like to both keep their traditions and communities while not become fellow travelers to white Marxists. (See a pattern, by the way?). In the US, you could say they have suffered greatly and somewhat still do - but hey, nowhere else are they huge casino owners either.
  15. The truth is that we need to encourage white girls to have children with Men of Color so that white skin privilege will disappear. That is the only way white supremacy and racism will end

    • Replies: @fish
    Ohs Tinys.....all yo’s “babys”be brown.


    -Lednerts “teh voyce ob teh gerayshuns” pibbity Pitz
    , @Anonymous
    Along with Supermarkets!!!!!
    , @George Taylor

    The truth is that we need to encourage white girls to have children with Men of Color so that white skin privilege will disappear. That is the only way white supremacy and racism will end
     
    But Tiny you know this upsets your Black sisters, right? https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-problem-with-black-men-who-refuse-to-date-black-women_us_57ec06ede4b082aad9b8a2b8
  16. @rogue-one
    Oh, and by the way #metoo has ensnared Linda Sarsour.

    Some interesting quotes:
    "Asmi claims one of Majed’s alleged favorite past times was sneaking up on her with a full erection."

    "She alleges she was dismissed by Sarsour outright. “She called me a liar because ‘Something like this didn’t happen to women who looked like me,'” (Basically, you are too ugly to be abused)

    "According to Fathelbab, Sarsour threatened legal and professional damage if she went public with the sexual assault claims."

    “Jaber told me my stalker was a ‘God-fearing man’ who was ‘always at the Mosque,’ so he wouldn’t do something like that,” Fathelbab claims. “He wanted to make it loud and clear this guy was a good Muslim and I was a bad Muslim for “complaining.”

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/17/linda-sarsour-accused-of-enabling-sexual-assault-against-woman-who-worked-for-her/

    Who the Hell are any of these people? Should we know? Should we care? I’m not trying to be a smartass. Ive never heard of any of these people in my life, despite consuming far more news and popular culture than I wish I did and than anyone probably should.

    • Replies: @biz
    Short explanation:

    Linda Sarsour is a Saudi regime shill and former Iraqi regime shill who has been embraced by "woke" feminists because she is extremely anti-Trump, wears a headscarf, talks with a Brooklyn accent, and is supposedly a Palestinian who is against Israel. She was the chairperson of the pussy hat march against Trump.

    Those other people are nobodies who worked for/with her before she pretended to be a feminist, back when she worked at a Muslim organization.
  17. In Latin America, race works differently, as a spectrum. That’s the trick: guys like Ramos or Garcetti would be European descended criollos in Central America, at the top of the societal privilege latter, yet pass themselves off as oppressed minorities in the US, akin to the mestizo illegal migrants. It’s a massive con. In truth, the Mexican elite openly despise the darker-skinned masses, viewing them at best as mindless pawns in their schemes, and aren’t subtle about it.

    (Obviously, Latin America isn’t a hegemon. You have places like Argentina or Chile which are more or less outposts of Europe, and places that are predominantly indigenous, like Peru. Northeastern Brazil-Bahia-is heavily African, whereas the Southeast is a mixing pot between various European groups, Japanese, and Maronite Lebanese. Comparing Argentina to Bolivia is like comparing the Philippines to South Korea: yes, they are both “Asian”, roughly speaking, but don’t share much in common.)

    >In general, in Mexican movies, African looks were seen as more socially scandalous than Amerindian looks.

    This seems to be something that Mexico actually shares in common with the US. Our Founding Fathers tended to view natives much like Tacitus views the ancient German and Briton tribes-aka, their ancestors before Rome brought civilization, a fact that wasn’t lost on many in 1700s America and elicited mixed feelings. The whole “noble savage” thing-backward, primitive, and barbaric, but also strictly honorable and un-corrupt, honest, simple, tough, egalitarian, and a living reproach to the soft decadence and Machiavellian manipulation of court politics in Europe. It wasn’t until the 1800s came along that the ambivalent approach to the indigenous peoples gave way to the more exploitative Manifest Destiny.

    It was considered a point of pride by many aristocratic planter families in the old South in particular to claim to have a little Cherokee or Creek warrior blood flowing through their veins. African blood, on the other hand, was to be swept under the carpet, at all costs, in spite of being a very visible elephant in the room.

    • Replies: @AP

    guys like Ramos or Garcetti would be European descended criollos in Central America, at the top of the societal privilege latter, yet pass themselves off as oppressed minorities in the US, akin to the mestizo illegal migrants
     
    I know a few Latin Americans from wealthy families. I suppose they might check off "Hispanic" on applications and reap the benefits, but they do not mix with lower class Latinos (I know a Mexican who forced her Anglo husband to turn down a lucrative job offer in LA, too may poor Mexicans there) and have very non-PC and are public about it. One South American girl told me that she and another one, the only non-"whites" (these two were European-looking too) in some diversity class at a liberal arts college, got the worst grades in the class due to constantly challenging the professor's B.S. about privilege and oppression.
  18. OT:
    – Illegal-alien Hispanic maid
    – White customer
    – thousands of dollars’ worth of property stolen
    – “Mendez Ortega told a series of lies from the start, and then unfurled a tragic life story”
    – Jury “feels sorry” for the illegal-alien criminal
    – veredict: no jail time
    – verdict: fine is mandatory; set $60 by jury
    – jury collects fine among themselves, hands over to the convicted (actually hand over $80)
    – That the criminal is an illegal is buried in the end of the initial press report (Wash Post).
    – illegal immigrant criminal is 19 years old, with one baby already and pregnant

    “The general sentiment was she was a victim, too,” said the jury foreman, Jeffery Memmott. “Two of the women [jurors] were crying because of how bad they felt. One lady pulled out a $20 bill, and just about everybody chipped in.” […]
    [A]nother juror, Janice Woolridge, explainin[ed]…“[T]here’s also got be some compassion somewhere. Young people make bad decisions.”

    (“First the jury convicted this 19-year-old maid for stealing. Then they took up a collection to pay her fine.”), Washington Post, Dec 15, 2017

    My verdict:
    – dysgenics
    – ethnomasochism

    • Replies: @a reader
    Assuredly, a cruel but fair moment.
    , @J.Ross
    I would have voted with them and paid the whole fine myself.
    Serves the victim right -- she hired an illegal.
    It's like these fake, spam, viral marketing threads at 4chan's political discussion board: "Hey you guys, my fellow normal American teenagers, is the latest white genocide propaganda to come out of Hollywood 'red-pilled'?" Or "I went to see Quentin Bigelow's 'Kill Every White Baby' and boy was I shocked to see white babies being killed." Well, it's a mainstream Hollywood product. There is absolutely no mystery about what you are seeing and nobody forced you to see it.
    This woman let an illegal into her house because she wanted a modern-day slave. She's like the pothead who calls the police attempting to recover his stolen marijuana.
    , @dr kill
    I think compassion is fine, but exceptions are forbidden.
  19. @slumber_j
    Entirely off-topic, but here's an ultra-iSteveish subject I only recently became aware of: the now politically imperiled President of Peru Pedro Pablo Kuczynski, father of former (I think) NYT "journalist" Alex Kuczynski, whom I first heard of about twenty years ago when she gratuitously outed my old friend Ed Conlon as the pseudonymous NYPD-officer author of a series of pieces in The New Yorker.

    Steve Sailer will really want to read President Kuczynski's Wikipedia entry, containing as it does such sentences as:

    He is the first cousin of film director Jean-Luc Godard.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Pablo_Kuczynski

    As is often true among educated persons of Polish origin, Kuczynski is a polyglot, fluent in Spanish, English, German and French

    I particularly enjoyed this sentence, although I would hardly describe him as ‘of Polish origin’.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    The best polyglots are Hungarian, and the Dutch are well established below them, and in both cases they will tell you it's because nobody's going to learn Dutch or Hungarian.
    , @Anon
    As is often true among educated persons of Polish origin, Kuczynski is a polyglot, fluent in Spanish, English, German and French

    You mean like this?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vFi-neN5H_0

  20. It seems to me that the original article is fundamentally flawed because they are using the term “race” as if it were synonymous with “skin tone.”

    But this is absurd because a person whose ancestry is 100% indigenous meso-american could easily have darker skin than someone who is, say, 50% sub-Saharan African and 50% European. And yet those two individuals would have nothing in common racially.

    • Replies: @David Allan coe
    Excellent point..Some Spaniards are very dark, darker than some mestizos.

    My nanny was from Chile. And appears 100% white. Her grandfather was English, she has her DNA sequences and we were surprised to discover she is 25% amerindian, also 25% British 10% German and 40% Spanish
    , @edgeslider
    The article is about the Mexico. Not the entire World.
  21. I don’t know if this is another case of Americans insisting on viewing every damn society on the face of the planet through an American lens.

    For some social characteristic to be worth analyzing as obsessively as race, there has to be a fairly impermeable social BARRIER separating out communities of people. Skin color worked for the US but I’ve no idea whether it’ll work for Mexico. Religion works in many countries. Or it could be occupation.

    If skin tone works more or less like height or thinness, then analyzing whether lighter people do better is about as interesting than analyzing whether tall people or skinny people do better.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    For some social characteristic to be worth analyzing as obsessively as race, there has to be a fairly impermeable social BARRIER separating out communities of people.
     
    Not true. Ok, maybe true with the "as obsessively as race" qualifier. But a "fairly impermeable social BARRIER" is not required for some genetic characteristic to be interesting and worth analyzing. You only need some sort of selection/discrimination going on.

    Steve's already given a pretty good explanation of how the Latin American color continuum works in a few articles long ago. It's iSteve canon. There's the very well known salience of color within blacks in the US--"brown paper tests" and all that--and it's definitely a continuum not a barrier, but very important for understanding the social dynamics there.

    I thought you were an Indian guy? That color is reproductively and socially salient there, but not a "barrier" should be obvious.

    Skin color worked for the US but I’ve no idea whether it’ll work for Mexico.
     
    And someone has collected the data and found out the answer is ... "yes".
  22. The graph is surprising in that it’s so linear. The correlation between euro ancestry and academics couldn’t be more pronounced visually.

  23. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The indigenous Indians aren’t very good looking and their body proportions aren’t very pleasing, tending to look stubby and short. Spanish tv showcases their better looking types and they invariably trend towards European features with some having suggestions of indigenous admixture. The Indians have a boring monochromatic uniformity, everyone having the same black hair and brown eyes. Even they don’t particularly want to see just themselves on their shows.

  24. If this is true,it would seem that Jeb Bush really married below his station.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    Apparently his older brother (a very experienced cross-border mongerer) didn't show him the ropes that well.
    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Yes, he did.

    In Mexico, a wealthy white man might take a mestiza as a mistress, but he probably wouldn't marry her. He'd marry a white woman.

    I don't think that Columba Bush appreciates that fact. She's a Mexican who lives in the US. She told her thuggish-looking son George Prescott Bush (who married a blonde) to "fight for his people." Jeb registered as a "Hispanic" on the Florida voter roll. Why don't they just move back to Mexico and be done with it?

    Heavens, I detest the whole family, despite having voted for them in the presidential elections.
  25. @Hail
    OT:
    - Illegal-alien Hispanic maid
    - White customer
    - thousands of dollars' worth of property stolen
    - "Mendez Ortega told a series of lies from the start, and then unfurled a tragic life story"
    - Jury "feels sorry" for the illegal-alien criminal
    - veredict: no jail time
    - verdict: fine is mandatory; set $60 by jury
    - jury collects fine among themselves, hands over to the convicted (actually hand over $80)
    - That the criminal is an illegal is buried in the end of the initial press report (Wash Post).
    - illegal immigrant criminal is 19 years old, with one baby already and pregnant

    “The general sentiment was she was a victim, too,” said the jury foreman, Jeffery Memmott. “Two of the women [jurors] were crying because of how bad they felt. One lady pulled out a $20 bill, and just about everybody chipped in.” [...]
    [A]nother juror, Janice Woolridge, explainin[ed]...“[T]here’s also got be some compassion somewhere. Young people make bad decisions."

    ("First the jury convicted this 19-year-old maid for stealing. Then they took up a collection to pay her fine."), Washington Post, Dec 15, 2017
     
    My verdict:
    - dysgenics
    - ethnomasochism

    Assuredly, a cruel but fair moment.

  26. I spent a fair amount of time in Mexico from about the late 1960s through the early 1990s. Not a LOT, but a total of a few months of time in a few decades, interspersed with an occasional visit to San Diego that would include a day trip to TJ.

    It didn’t take very long for me to notice the differences in color between the wealthier people and their servants. Or between the middle class and the rural peasants.

    Illegal immigration always struck me as a way for Mexico to dump their surplus dark skinned peoples on the US. The light skinned Mexicans find a way to come here legally.

  27. The vast middle of the cline in the graphs likely represents people with roughly the same amount of Oppressor and Oppressed ancestry. This raises a question society needs to answer: is phenotype or genotype more important for determining diversity points?

    • Replies: @bomag

    is phenotype or genotype more important for determining diversity points?
     
    Looks like either one will score you the bling.
  28. Curiously, whiteness seems to be a dominant characteristic among Time Magazine’s 25 Most Influential Hispanics in America.

    http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2008201_2008200_2008183,00.html

  29. How the data about skin tone from 1 to 11 is collected?

  30. @jay-w
    It seems to me that the original article is fundamentally flawed because they are using the term "race" as if it were synonymous with "skin tone."

    But this is absurd because a person whose ancestry is 100% indigenous meso-american could easily have darker skin than someone who is, say, 50% sub-Saharan African and 50% European. And yet those two individuals would have nothing in common racially.

    Excellent point..Some Spaniards are very dark, darker than some mestizos.

    My nanny was from Chile. And appears 100% white. Her grandfather was English, she has her DNA sequences and we were surprised to discover she is 25% amerindian, also 25% British 10% German and 40% Spanish

  31. We need to emphasize how ugly the racial realities are in Latin America. And how it has been that way for centuries.

    In order to short circuit all the happy talk about our gloriously Diverse future.

  32. One of the most striking sequences in Our Brand Is Crisis has Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada (the guy that was replaced as leader of Bolivia by Chavez-with-a-brain Evo Morales) talking to journalists in what would be his final election campaign. Bolivians are formally mad at Chileans because of a past map redraw that cost Bolivia some coastline. A big issue in that campaign was where to place a new pipeline, and there was a popular sentiment that, wherever they put it, they don’t want Chile benefitting. So a journalist of apparent mixed ancestry asks this candidate if he will consult the people regarding pipeline placement, and with a gentle smile Lozada demurs because “it would be like asking a child about surgery.” The reaction on the journalist’s face is one of the great moments of photography.

  33. @flyingtiger
    If this is true,it would seem that Jeb Bush really married below his station.

    Apparently his older brother (a very experienced cross-border mongerer) didn’t show him the ropes that well.

  34. @Tiny Duck
    The truth is that we need to encourage white girls to have children with Men of Color so that white skin privilege will disappear. That is the only way white supremacy and racism will end

    Ohs Tinys…..all yo’s “babys”be brown.

    -Lednerts “teh voyce ob teh gerayshuns” pibbity Pitz

  35. @DFH

    As is often true among educated persons of Polish origin, Kuczynski is a polyglot, fluent in Spanish, English, German and French
     
    I particularly enjoyed this sentence, although I would hardly describe him as 'of Polish origin'.

    The best polyglots are Hungarian, and the Dutch are well established below them, and in both cases they will tell you it’s because nobody’s going to learn Dutch or Hungarian.

    • Replies: @Amasius
    I have a pet theory that the reason Jesuits are such language-heads is because Loyola and Xavier were Basques.
    , @Old Palo Altan
    Dutch is easy, especially if you already know German.
    But there ain't nothin' you can learn beforehand which will make Hungarian any less of a nightmare.
    Thomas Molnar once told me ruefully that, after the fall of Communism and his triumphant return to Hungarian academe, he had to relearn his own language after some forty years of disuse.

    In fact of the Western European languages it is more Danish than Dutch which is unlikely to be learned by a foreigner. Indeed, the best non-native speaker of English I know is a subject of that nation's gracious queen.

  36. @jay-w
    It seems to me that the original article is fundamentally flawed because they are using the term "race" as if it were synonymous with "skin tone."

    But this is absurd because a person whose ancestry is 100% indigenous meso-american could easily have darker skin than someone who is, say, 50% sub-Saharan African and 50% European. And yet those two individuals would have nothing in common racially.

    The article is about the Mexico. Not the entire World.

  37. @Anon
    Sailer wants to ignite the commentariat. The only well-known movie with "dark" babies is "Angelitos Negros", in which the dark baby is not mestizo or brown, but mulatto, black. Melodramatic in tone, the moral characters in the movie love the baby. Part of the "teaching" about correct moral choices the media did back then.

    The Spanish Crown promoted marriage anytime a baby was in the stakes, (and they kept clear records and understanding of the mixes), that is why there is a mixed race, not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.

    Mexico is not overall a racist country, it is simply very classist (class conscious or discriminatory). Pure Indians, of which there there are few left, are often pitied. The U.S. is racist (race conscious or discriminatory) and more classist than it publicly admits.

    The Spanish Crown promoted marriage anytime a baby was in the stakes, (and they kept clear records and understanding of the mixes), that is why there is a mixed race, not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.

    Mixed-marriages were a necessity in Mexico; there simply weren’t enough European women to go around.Hence, Spanish men had to turn to Amerind women for sexual release. There was also a lot of de facto polygyny/concubinage (the Church just looked the other way). Mainland Anglo-America, in contrast, had a much more favorable sex ratio between European men and women. In the Massachusetts Bay Colony, for example, it was nearly 50/50.

    not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.

    No, the Spaniards favored things like the Encomienda and Repartimiento, brutal systems for extracting labor from Amerinds for the benefit of Spanish overlords

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repartimiento

    Mexico is not overall a racist country, it is simply very classist (class conscious or discriminatory).

    Class and race in Mexico tend to go together…..

    Pure Indians, of which there there are few left, are often pitied.

    Lots of those Mestizos are 75% + Amerind….and there are lots of 100% Amerinds in places like Yucatan….

    According to the National Commission for the Development of Indigenous Peoples (Comisión Nacional para el Desarrollo de los Pueblos Indígenas, or CDI in Spanish) and the INEGI (official census institute), in 2015, 25,694,928 people in Mexico self-identify as being indigenous[3] of many different ethnic groups,[4] which constitute 21.5% of Mexico’s population.[1][2]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Mexico

    • Replies: @Anon
    @ mixed marriages were a necessity ... Turn to for sexual release.... Spanish Encomienda

    You are seriously saying sexual release necessitates marriage? The Spanish Crown (starting with Queen Isabella) for moral (Christian) considerations, promoted marriage. Indians were legally recognized as "having souls", and as such as having the same rights as Spaniards. Mexico was a province of Spain, with recourse to courts (Cortes de Indias) same as other parts of the Empire (Naples). One has to remember that Colón was covered with acclaim, title and rewards after his first return, but (having proved to be an incompetent, often cruel administrator), made his last return to Spain in chains.

    The mestizo "race" was born under Spanish conquest. Try finding some under British colonies. You might not like mestizos, but from the Indian point of view, it went much better if you were conquered by Spain than by England.

    The Encomienda system was quite imperfect and was slowly modified. The misión es worked well for the misiónados, on the other hand. Of course the Indians, a more backward civilization, were conquered and abused. But international law was born because Charles V ask Dominican priests whether the conquered Indians could be freely dispossessed of their lands, and the answer was no. A statue of Vitoria stands in NY, in the UN plaza, because of that. (Or maybe not anymore, but it used to.) 

    Also, what Spain did do: 
    - spent men and treasure to evangelize (yes, it counts, for it helped preserve locals tongues and helped in the education/assimilation)
    - technology transfer (too long, but the mill, the wheel, several types of metallurgy, the plow, gunpowder, printing press, writing itself... Long list)
    - built hospitals (Isabella specified in 1503 for poor people, christians and Indians alike)
    - built universities (already 13 by the time Harvard was founded in 1636:  Santo Domingo, Lima, México, Santiago, Bogotá, ... I'll leave it there)
    - the missionaries lobbyed successfully for exempting the Indians from tithing since the XVI, though regular (white) christians were not.
    - The Crown outlawed slavery for Indians,mand the Jesuits even helped them defend themselves against slavers. There's a good article about the Battle of Mbororé in Wikipedia, quite interesting.

    Do not wholly believe the "Black Legend", forged deliberately against Spain by recognized fraudsters such as Theodore de Bry.

    @ class and race in Mexico go together.... 75% Amerindians

    My point is precisely that Mexico is mostly homogenous: mestizo, and thus classist instead of  racist. You need different races to be racist.The official site for population numbers, INEGI, gives the number of "indigenous language speakers" as 7 million, out of 119 million. No numbers given for whites. Yes, many whites are elite, and probably very few are in extreme poverty (but there are some "pretty white" that live in ejidos in northern states such as Sonora). OTOH, the President is clearly mestizo, as are many top politicians and media personalities. 

    http://cuentame.inegi.org.mx/poblacion/lindigena.aspx?tema=P

    Sorry about not finding link in English, I'm rushed but tried answering anyway, even if disjointedly. I think your link is playing fast and loose with definitions, either out of the need to indoctrinate hatred or because of government handouts, or both, take a look at what "cultural activists" prefer:

    The category of "indigena" (indigenous) can be defined narrowly according to linguistic criteria including only persons that speak one of Mexico's 89 indigenous languages, this is the categorization used by the National Mexican Institute of Statistics. It can also be defined broadly to include all persons who self identify as having an indigenous cultural background, whether or not they speak the language of the indigenous group they identify with. This means that the percentage of the Mexican population defined as "indigenous" varies according to the definition applied; cultural activists have referred to the usage of the narrow definition of the term for census purposes as "statistical genocide".[8][9]
  38. @Anon
    Sailer wants to ignite the commentariat. The only well-known movie with "dark" babies is "Angelitos Negros", in which the dark baby is not mestizo or brown, but mulatto, black. Melodramatic in tone, the moral characters in the movie love the baby. Part of the "teaching" about correct moral choices the media did back then.

    The Spanish Crown promoted marriage anytime a baby was in the stakes, (and they kept clear records and understanding of the mixes), that is why there is a mixed race, not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.

    Mexico is not overall a racist country, it is simply very classist (class conscious or discriminatory). Pure Indians, of which there there are few left, are often pitied. The U.S. is racist (race conscious or discriminatory) and more classist than it publicly admits.

    Sailer wants to ignite the commentariat.

    That is what I thought. Must be a slow news day for Steve.

  39. This topic lends itself very nicely to reminding everyone of the Poor Little Rich Girls of Mexico. Honestly, who doesn’t love looking at these pictures?

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2012/12/11/daniela_rossell_documenting_the_rich_and_famous_mexican_youth_photos.html

    • Replies: @Bill B.

    Poor Little Rich Girls of Mexico.
     
    Good job Freud's discredited; we might have read an awful lot into some of those snaps.
  40. @Seth Largo
    The vast middle of the cline in the graphs likely represents people with roughly the same amount of Oppressor and Oppressed ancestry. This raises a question society needs to answer: is phenotype or genotype more important for determining diversity points?

    is phenotype or genotype more important for determining diversity points?

    Looks like either one will score you the bling.

  41. @DFH

    As is often true among educated persons of Polish origin, Kuczynski is a polyglot, fluent in Spanish, English, German and French
     
    I particularly enjoyed this sentence, although I would hardly describe him as 'of Polish origin'.

    As is often true among educated persons of Polish origin, Kuczynski is a polyglot, fluent in Spanish, English, German and French

    You mean like this?

  42. Something I’ve noticed over the years is that young Latin (mostly Mexican/Central American) women often look Asiatic, to the point that at first glance it’s not always apparent whether a young woman is Latin or Asian. Generally her identity becomes apparent after a few seconds. This almost never occurs among males or among females past their early 20’s.

    • Replies: @anonguy

    Something I’ve noticed over the years is that young Latin (mostly Mexican/Central American) women often look Asiatic, to the point that at first glance it’s not always apparent whether a young woman is Latin or Asian. Generally her identity becomes apparent after a few seconds. This almost never occurs among males or among females past their early 20′s.
     
    I've noticed this too, but I think it is coincidental - the young women are not trying to look Asian but some currently popular styling cues add up to that impression in some eyes.
  43. @sabril

    Mexicans made a whole lot of movies in the 1950s about fair upscale couples who have a dark “throwback” babies.
     
    I'm going to guess that with the availability of genetic testing (and brides being aware of it), there are a lot fewer "throwback" babies among the upper classes in Mexico these days.

    Or maybe the wives are screwing the gardener less often.

  44. @Tiny Duck
    The truth is that we need to encourage white girls to have children with Men of Color so that white skin privilege will disappear. That is the only way white supremacy and racism will end

    Along with Supermarkets!!!!!

  45. @NickG
    It's a fairly safe heuristic to run, that in a choice between any horrid, unkind stereotype and any politically correct goodthink homily, the odds are heavily stacked that reality is reflected in the stereotype.

    A stereotype can never take hold unless there is a kernel of truth in it.

  46. @prosa123
    Something I've noticed over the years is that young Latin (mostly Mexican/Central American) women often look Asiatic, to the point that at first glance it's not always apparent whether a young woman is Latin or Asian. Generally her identity becomes apparent after a few seconds. This almost never occurs among males or among females past their early 20's.

    Something I’ve noticed over the years is that young Latin (mostly Mexican/Central American) women often look Asiatic, to the point that at first glance it’s not always apparent whether a young woman is Latin or Asian. Generally her identity becomes apparent after a few seconds. This almost never occurs among males or among females past their early 20′s.

    I’ve noticed this too, but I think it is coincidental – the young women are not trying to look Asian but some currently popular styling cues add up to that impression in some eyes.

  47. @flyingtiger
    If this is true,it would seem that Jeb Bush really married below his station.

    Yes, he did.

    In Mexico, a wealthy white man might take a mestiza as a mistress, but he probably wouldn’t marry her. He’d marry a white woman.

    I don’t think that Columba Bush appreciates that fact. She’s a Mexican who lives in the US. She told her thuggish-looking son George Prescott Bush (who married a blonde) to “fight for his people.” Jeb registered as a “Hispanic” on the Florida voter roll. Why don’t they just move back to Mexico and be done with it?

    Heavens, I detest the whole family, despite having voted for them in the presidential elections.

  48. @Tiny Duck
    The truth is that we need to encourage white girls to have children with Men of Color so that white skin privilege will disappear. That is the only way white supremacy and racism will end

    The truth is that we need to encourage white girls to have children with Men of Color so that white skin privilege will disappear. That is the only way white supremacy and racism will end

    But Tiny you know this upsets your Black sisters, right? https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-problem-with-black-men-who-refuse-to-date-black-women_us_57ec06ede4b082aad9b8a2b8

  49. @Polynikes
    This sliding scale of skin tones happens in African American culture and some Asian cultures, too (hence, all the skin lightening creams). I think Brazil too.

    I wonder if it is an innate biological selection preference or if it is more social/culture. Maybe a response to the Euro-Anglo global dominance the last few centuries?

    Asian skin whitening has a tradition that stretches back 2,000 years…”The feminine ideal during the Han period for women of the court was almost unearthly white, white skin. Moon-like roundish faces, long black hair. You can see how a culture that maintained that as an ideal might continue with an ideal that light skin equals beauty,” said Anne Rose Kitagawa, assistant curator of Japanese art at Harvard’s Sackler Museum. The beauty industries in Taiwan emphasize different skin tones and say that if you can be as white as Japanese women you can be as beautiful as a cherry blossom.

    It’s not surprising why Japan has such an abundance of whitening products. The preference for white, flawless skin has been around forever in Japan – long before the influences of western culture. There’s even an old Japanese proverb that translates to “white skin covers the seven flaws,” meaning that even a woman with unattractive facial features can seem beautiful if she has fair skin. as early as the third century Japanese women used bags of rice bran and supplies of nightingale droppings to whiten their skin.

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    Interesting. I wonder if it is an innate biological desire or something else. Just thinking out loud...
  50. @Hail
    OT:
    - Illegal-alien Hispanic maid
    - White customer
    - thousands of dollars' worth of property stolen
    - "Mendez Ortega told a series of lies from the start, and then unfurled a tragic life story"
    - Jury "feels sorry" for the illegal-alien criminal
    - veredict: no jail time
    - verdict: fine is mandatory; set $60 by jury
    - jury collects fine among themselves, hands over to the convicted (actually hand over $80)
    - That the criminal is an illegal is buried in the end of the initial press report (Wash Post).
    - illegal immigrant criminal is 19 years old, with one baby already and pregnant

    “The general sentiment was she was a victim, too,” said the jury foreman, Jeffery Memmott. “Two of the women [jurors] were crying because of how bad they felt. One lady pulled out a $20 bill, and just about everybody chipped in.” [...]
    [A]nother juror, Janice Woolridge, explainin[ed]...“[T]here’s also got be some compassion somewhere. Young people make bad decisions."

    ("First the jury convicted this 19-year-old maid for stealing. Then they took up a collection to pay her fine."), Washington Post, Dec 15, 2017
     
    My verdict:
    - dysgenics
    - ethnomasochism

    I would have voted with them and paid the whole fine myself.
    Serves the victim right — she hired an illegal.
    It’s like these fake, spam, viral marketing threads at 4chan’s political discussion board: “Hey you guys, my fellow normal American teenagers, is the latest white genocide propaganda to come out of Hollywood ‘red-pilled’?” Or “I went to see Quentin Bigelow’s ‘Kill Every White Baby’ and boy was I shocked to see white babies being killed.” Well, it’s a mainstream Hollywood product. There is absolutely no mystery about what you are seeing and nobody forced you to see it.
    This woman let an illegal into her house because she wanted a modern-day slave. She’s like the pothead who calls the police attempting to recover his stolen marijuana.

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Serves the victim right — she hired an illegal.

    The victim did not hire the maid. The victim hired a cleaning service and the maid happened to be an employee of the service. Three maids from the cleaning service were at the victim's house. The criminal returned the stolen items to her boss who was the guy who ran the cleaning service.

    Fairfax City police investigated and interviewed the three women who had cleaned the home. All three denied taking or seeing the rings, court records show, and no one was charged. ... But after the interviews, Mendez Ortega reportedly felt bad about the theft, admitted to her boss that she had the rings and turned them over to him. ... She confessed, but claimed that the rings were in the bathroom. And then she tried to blame her boss.”
     

  51. @J.Ross
    I would have voted with them and paid the whole fine myself.
    Serves the victim right -- she hired an illegal.
    It's like these fake, spam, viral marketing threads at 4chan's political discussion board: "Hey you guys, my fellow normal American teenagers, is the latest white genocide propaganda to come out of Hollywood 'red-pilled'?" Or "I went to see Quentin Bigelow's 'Kill Every White Baby' and boy was I shocked to see white babies being killed." Well, it's a mainstream Hollywood product. There is absolutely no mystery about what you are seeing and nobody forced you to see it.
    This woman let an illegal into her house because she wanted a modern-day slave. She's like the pothead who calls the police attempting to recover his stolen marijuana.

    Serves the victim right — she hired an illegal.

    The victim did not hire the maid. The victim hired a cleaning service and the maid happened to be an employee of the service. Three maids from the cleaning service were at the victim’s house. The criminal returned the stolen items to her boss who was the guy who ran the cleaning service.

    Fairfax City police investigated and interviewed the three women who had cleaned the home. All three denied taking or seeing the rings, court records show, and no one was charged. … But after the interviews, Mendez Ortega reportedly felt bad about the theft, admitted to her boss that she had the rings and turned them over to him. … She confessed, but claimed that the rings were in the bathroom. And then she tried to blame her boss.”

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Okay I take back what I said, should've read more carefully.
    (But the lack of civil war within the Republican party is still very frustrating. The slavers themselves ought to be targets of ten times whatever the illegals get flung at them, but they are still treated by respectable discourse as non-criminals.)
    All the same hostility should go to the cleaning company. We are not going after businesses that use illegals aggressively enough, and until we do, it was all a lot of noise.
  52. @sabril

    Mexicans made a whole lot of movies in the 1950s about fair upscale couples who have a dark “throwback” babies.
     
    I'm going to guess that with the availability of genetic testing (and brides being aware of it), there are a lot fewer "throwback" babies among the upper classes in Mexico these days.

    The “throwback” is a baby who looks more black than the parents. On the long list of Spanish racial categories, it’s called a Saltapatras. A Saltapatras is the product of a mixed-race marriage, especially when the racial mixture of one party is “up in the air,” or Tentenelaire.

    Here is one version of the list:

    Peninsular = Spaniard born on the Iberian Peninsula (Spain)
    Creole (Criollo) = Child of a Peninsular but born in Mexico (New World)
    Mestizo = Spanish father and Indian mother
    Castizo = Mestizo and a Creole
    Cholo, Coyote = Indian and a Mestizo
    Mulatto = Peninsular and a Black.
    Zambo or Cafuzo = Black and an Indian
    Lobo = Indian man and a black woman
    Chino = Peninsular man and an Indian woman
    Jibaro = Lobo and a China
    Cuarteron (Quadroon)= Mulatto and a White
    Terceron (Octoroon) = Quadroon and a White.
    Tentenelaire = (translates as “up in the air”) Terceron and a Mulatto, or Chino and Indian
    Albarazado = Tentenelaire and Mulatto, or Jibaro and Mulata
    Cambujo = Child of Albazardo and black
    Barcino = Child of Albarazado and Indian
    Calpamulato = Child of Barcino and Cambuja
    Euromeztizo = Indian with Spanish characteristics dominating
    Indomeztizo = A Spaniard with Indian characteristics dominating.
    Pardo = Colored, can be used to refer to any mixed race person.
    Saltapatras = a genetic throwback. It usually refers to the product of a mixed-race marriage in which the offspring looks more black than the parents.

    • Replies: @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    "Saltapatras = a genetic throwback. It usually refers to the product of a mixed-race marriage in which the offspring looks more black than the parents."

    My admittedly limited education in genetics tells me that this is not possible. My understanding is that dark skin color is a dominate genetic trait, so if both parents have light skin, they both have two recessive light skin genes. Thus neither can pass a skin color gene to a child that is darker than either parent.

    But perhaps it is more complicated than that?
    , @J.Ross
    This is the kill shot of this discussion. We used to have an English vocabulary of racial purity (mulatto, octaroon, quatroon, high yeller, redbone). We stopped using it before I was born, during a period now thought of as unacceptably racist. The Spanish-speaking world still has and still uses this categorization set, and it will probably still do so after I am dead.
  53. @Hail
    OT:
    - Illegal-alien Hispanic maid
    - White customer
    - thousands of dollars' worth of property stolen
    - "Mendez Ortega told a series of lies from the start, and then unfurled a tragic life story"
    - Jury "feels sorry" for the illegal-alien criminal
    - veredict: no jail time
    - verdict: fine is mandatory; set $60 by jury
    - jury collects fine among themselves, hands over to the convicted (actually hand over $80)
    - That the criminal is an illegal is buried in the end of the initial press report (Wash Post).
    - illegal immigrant criminal is 19 years old, with one baby already and pregnant

    “The general sentiment was she was a victim, too,” said the jury foreman, Jeffery Memmott. “Two of the women [jurors] were crying because of how bad they felt. One lady pulled out a $20 bill, and just about everybody chipped in.” [...]
    [A]nother juror, Janice Woolridge, explainin[ed]...“[T]here’s also got be some compassion somewhere. Young people make bad decisions."

    ("First the jury convicted this 19-year-old maid for stealing. Then they took up a collection to pay her fine."), Washington Post, Dec 15, 2017
     
    My verdict:
    - dysgenics
    - ethnomasochism

    I think compassion is fine, but exceptions are forbidden.

  54. @Harry Baldwin
    The "throwback" is a baby who looks more black than the parents. On the long list of Spanish racial categories, it's called a Saltapatras. A Saltapatras is the product of a mixed-race marriage, especially when the racial mixture of one party is "up in the air," or Tentenelaire.

    Here is one version of the list:

    Peninsular = Spaniard born on the Iberian Peninsula (Spain)
    Creole (Criollo) = Child of a Peninsular but born in Mexico (New World)
    Mestizo = Spanish father and Indian mother
    Castizo = Mestizo and a Creole
    Cholo, Coyote = Indian and a Mestizo
    Mulatto = Peninsular and a Black.
    Zambo or Cafuzo = Black and an Indian
    Lobo = Indian man and a black woman
    Chino = Peninsular man and an Indian woman
    Jibaro = Lobo and a China
    Cuarteron (Quadroon)= Mulatto and a White
    Terceron (Octoroon) = Quadroon and a White.
    Tentenelaire = (translates as "up in the air") Terceron and a Mulatto, or Chino and Indian
    Albarazado = Tentenelaire and Mulatto, or Jibaro and Mulata
    Cambujo = Child of Albazardo and black
    Barcino = Child of Albarazado and Indian
    Calpamulato = Child of Barcino and Cambuja
    Euromeztizo = Indian with Spanish characteristics dominating
    Indomeztizo = A Spaniard with Indian characteristics dominating.
    Pardo = Colored, can be used to refer to any mixed race person.
    Saltapatras = a genetic throwback. It usually refers to the product of a mixed-race marriage in which the offspring looks more black than the parents.

    “Saltapatras = a genetic throwback. It usually refers to the product of a mixed-race marriage in which the offspring looks more black than the parents.”

    My admittedly limited education in genetics tells me that this is not possible. My understanding is that dark skin color is a dominate genetic trait, so if both parents have light skin, they both have two recessive light skin genes. Thus neither can pass a skin color gene to a child that is darker than either parent.

    But perhaps it is more complicated than that?

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Sandra Laing, a black South African born to white parents who were members of the Nationalist Party. They had the Supreme Court declare her white. (LINK)

    Zachary and Riva Timas (both black) with their four biological children (LINK)

    David Justice (half white/half black) and white Hispanic wife and their three biologial children (LINK)

    Jason Taylor's children have one black grandparent and three white grandparents (LINK)

  55. Surprise surprise! Mexicans with lighter skin complete more years of schooling (on average) than those with darker skin. Anyone who’s well read on the IQ and race issue (behind the well-documented 85/100 black/white IQ gap in the US) should know that Amerindians have an average IQ somewhere in the neighborhood of 87-89. Conversely Spaniards (who have made the largest DNA contribution for the Euro side of the Mexican gene pool) have an average IQ of approximately 98- although it’s been claimed that IQs in Spain increase from a mean of 95 in the south to over 100 in the north.

    If Americans weren’t so brainwashed by fake science from the fake media re: IQ genes and race maybe they’d realized long ago we shouldn’t be importing the problem/dilemma of Latin America’s tangled and intractable race/casta system. Even with aggressive social engineering only so much can be done to mediate differences caused by intractable IQ disparities.

  56. A few points I’d like to make about this article. First, I knew what the data would show before I read the article. I used to date a language teacher who taught Spanish and had been to Mexico numerous times. I asked her about this because I had numerous Spanish channels which I would peruse occasionally. What I saw astounded me because the majority of actors were not only white but there was no diversity at all on these channels. She told me that many of the actors were Danish and from Europe. As long as you were fluent in Spanish you could get the part. Some of the actors are Northern Germans that have ancestors in Mexico or come from South America.

    Years before that I had a buddy who was part Puerto Rican and some other Hispanic mix and he hit me with the comment, “You white people are so stupid about this diversity bullshit. Look at the television of other countries (Hispanic).” I never quite understood what he meant till I watched all the so called Spanish and Mexican television. Americans are stupid and intimidated by this stuff. Of course, if you point this out you will be called racist.

    Look at the various Miss Mexico contestants in beauty pageants. Are they dark or light?

  57. @rogue-one
    Oh, and by the way #metoo has ensnared Linda Sarsour.

    Some interesting quotes:
    "Asmi claims one of Majed’s alleged favorite past times was sneaking up on her with a full erection."

    "She alleges she was dismissed by Sarsour outright. “She called me a liar because ‘Something like this didn’t happen to women who looked like me,'” (Basically, you are too ugly to be abused)

    "According to Fathelbab, Sarsour threatened legal and professional damage if she went public with the sexual assault claims."

    “Jaber told me my stalker was a ‘God-fearing man’ who was ‘always at the Mosque,’ so he wouldn’t do something like that,” Fathelbab claims. “He wanted to make it loud and clear this guy was a good Muslim and I was a bad Muslim for “complaining.”

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/17/linda-sarsour-accused-of-enabling-sexual-assault-against-woman-who-worked-for-her/

    >good Muslim
    >not “[taking] a slave of the right hand”
    >not punishing a publicly underclothed women
    Hmmm …

  58. @Triumph104
    Serves the victim right — she hired an illegal.

    The victim did not hire the maid. The victim hired a cleaning service and the maid happened to be an employee of the service. Three maids from the cleaning service were at the victim's house. The criminal returned the stolen items to her boss who was the guy who ran the cleaning service.

    Fairfax City police investigated and interviewed the three women who had cleaned the home. All three denied taking or seeing the rings, court records show, and no one was charged. ... But after the interviews, Mendez Ortega reportedly felt bad about the theft, admitted to her boss that she had the rings and turned them over to him. ... She confessed, but claimed that the rings were in the bathroom. And then she tried to blame her boss.”
     

    Okay I take back what I said, should’ve read more carefully.
    (But the lack of civil war within the Republican party is still very frustrating. The slavers themselves ought to be targets of ten times whatever the illegals get flung at them, but they are still treated by respectable discourse as non-criminals.)
    All the same hostility should go to the cleaning company. We are not going after businesses that use illegals aggressively enough, and until we do, it was all a lot of noise.

  59. @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    "Saltapatras = a genetic throwback. It usually refers to the product of a mixed-race marriage in which the offspring looks more black than the parents."

    My admittedly limited education in genetics tells me that this is not possible. My understanding is that dark skin color is a dominate genetic trait, so if both parents have light skin, they both have two recessive light skin genes. Thus neither can pass a skin color gene to a child that is darker than either parent.

    But perhaps it is more complicated than that?

    Sandra Laing, a black South African born to white parents who were members of the Nationalist Party. They had the Supreme Court declare her white. (LINK)

    Zachary and Riva Timas (both black) with their four biological children (LINK)

    David Justice (half white/half black) and white Hispanic wife and their three biologial children (LINK)

    Jason Taylor’s children have one black grandparent and three white grandparents (LINK)

    • Replies: @prosa123
    Then there's Saul "Canelo" Alvarez, the great Mexican middleweight boxer. He has reddish hair and very pale skin, in fact Canelo means cinnamon in Spanish. He basically looks completely white.
    Alvarez attributes his fighting skills to his coloration. His parents and siblings are much more mestizo looking than he is, and when growing up other kids used to say that his mother must have fooled around with a white man. He somewhat reluctantly had to get into fistfights to defend her honor, and the skills he learned made him into a top boxer.
  60. @Harry Baldwin
    The "throwback" is a baby who looks more black than the parents. On the long list of Spanish racial categories, it's called a Saltapatras. A Saltapatras is the product of a mixed-race marriage, especially when the racial mixture of one party is "up in the air," or Tentenelaire.

    Here is one version of the list:

    Peninsular = Spaniard born on the Iberian Peninsula (Spain)
    Creole (Criollo) = Child of a Peninsular but born in Mexico (New World)
    Mestizo = Spanish father and Indian mother
    Castizo = Mestizo and a Creole
    Cholo, Coyote = Indian and a Mestizo
    Mulatto = Peninsular and a Black.
    Zambo or Cafuzo = Black and an Indian
    Lobo = Indian man and a black woman
    Chino = Peninsular man and an Indian woman
    Jibaro = Lobo and a China
    Cuarteron (Quadroon)= Mulatto and a White
    Terceron (Octoroon) = Quadroon and a White.
    Tentenelaire = (translates as "up in the air") Terceron and a Mulatto, or Chino and Indian
    Albarazado = Tentenelaire and Mulatto, or Jibaro and Mulata
    Cambujo = Child of Albazardo and black
    Barcino = Child of Albarazado and Indian
    Calpamulato = Child of Barcino and Cambuja
    Euromeztizo = Indian with Spanish characteristics dominating
    Indomeztizo = A Spaniard with Indian characteristics dominating.
    Pardo = Colored, can be used to refer to any mixed race person.
    Saltapatras = a genetic throwback. It usually refers to the product of a mixed-race marriage in which the offspring looks more black than the parents.

    This is the kill shot of this discussion. We used to have an English vocabulary of racial purity (mulatto, octaroon, quatroon, high yeller, redbone). We stopped using it before I was born, during a period now thought of as unacceptably racist. The Spanish-speaking world still has and still uses this categorization set, and it will probably still do so after I am dead.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Well. Don't trust Internet education. He meant the list of 'castes' attempted during colonial times. By around 1750's people already stated the obvious: "the distinctions would have no end". Thus were born the mestizos. People today only use Indian, mestizo and white. Though the term mulatto is also known, I'd say negro is more common.
  61. @slumber_j
    Entirely off-topic, but here's an ultra-iSteveish subject I only recently became aware of: the now politically imperiled President of Peru Pedro Pablo Kuczynski, father of former (I think) NYT "journalist" Alex Kuczynski, whom I first heard of about twenty years ago when she gratuitously outed my old friend Ed Conlon as the pseudonymous NYPD-officer author of a series of pieces in The New Yorker.

    Steve Sailer will really want to read President Kuczynski's Wikipedia entry, containing as it does such sentences as:

    He is the first cousin of film director Jean-Luc Godard.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Pablo_Kuczynski

    I went to a museum exhibit in L.A. in 2007. The exhibit had posters from a number of mid-century Mexican films on the topic.

  62. The colonial bureaucrats of Spanish America propounded an ornate classification system of admixtures of indigenes, Spaniards, and slaves, with names for the mixes. For instance, an Indian/African mix was called a zambo [pronounced ‘sambo’]. Ring any bells? A certain Indio/Spanish mix was called a coyote. When I was a kid growing up in New Mexico, most of the Spanish-speakers were of stock going back to the 17th Century. ‘Coyote’ was the slang for a gringo/Spanish cross, or sometimes cauterón, a lot like quadroon, classifications that appear in the colonial system. For visuals, search for ‘pinturas de castas,’ paintings that illustrated the purported characteristics of different mixes. All interesting; many of the paintings are lovely as well as educational.
    I always wondered why Chino was a nickname for a curly-headed guy as it means Chinese, not at all curly-headed. Turns out that some black mix produced a head of hair that curled like the tail of a pig, a ‘cochino,’ and the ‘co’ went away leaving the chino.

    • Replies: @a reader

    For visuals, search for ‘pinturas de castas,’ paintings that illustrated the purported characteristics of different mixes.
     
    Thanks.
  63. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    The Spanish Crown promoted marriage anytime a baby was in the stakes, (and they kept clear records and understanding of the mixes), that is why there is a mixed race, not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.
     
    Mixed-marriages were a necessity in Mexico; there simply weren't enough European women to go around.Hence, Spanish men had to turn to Amerind women for sexual release. There was also a lot of de facto polygyny/concubinage (the Church just looked the other way). Mainland Anglo-America, in contrast, had a much more favorable sex ratio between European men and women. In the Massachusetts Bay Colony, for example, it was nearly 50/50.

    not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.
     
    No, the Spaniards favored things like the Encomienda and Repartimiento, brutal systems for extracting labor from Amerinds for the benefit of Spanish overlords

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repartimiento

    Mexico is not overall a racist country, it is simply very classist (class conscious or discriminatory).
     
    Class and race in Mexico tend to go together.....

    Pure Indians, of which there there are few left, are often pitied.
     
    Lots of those Mestizos are 75% + Amerind....and there are lots of 100% Amerinds in places like Yucatan....

    According to the National Commission for the Development of Indigenous Peoples (Comisión Nacional para el Desarrollo de los Pueblos Indígenas, or CDI in Spanish) and the INEGI (official census institute), in 2015, 25,694,928 people in Mexico self-identify as being indigenous[3] of many different ethnic groups,[4] which constitute 21.5% of Mexico's population.[1][2]

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Mexico

    @ mixed marriages were a necessity … Turn to for sexual release…. Spanish Encomienda

    You are seriously saying sexual release necessitates marriage? The Spanish Crown (starting with Queen Isabella) for moral (Christian) considerations, promoted marriage. Indians were legally recognized as “having souls”, and as such as having the same rights as Spaniards. Mexico was a province of Spain, with recourse to courts (Cortes de Indias) same as other parts of the Empire (Naples). One has to remember that Colón was covered with acclaim, title and rewards after his first return, but (having proved to be an incompetent, often cruel administrator), made his last return to Spain in chains.

    The mestizo “race” was born under Spanish conquest. Try finding some under British colonies. You might not like mestizos, but from the Indian point of view, it went much better if you were conquered by Spain than by England.

    The Encomienda system was quite imperfect and was slowly modified. The misión es worked well for the misiónados, on the other hand. Of course the Indians, a more backward civilization, were conquered and abused. But international law was born because Charles V ask Dominican priests whether the conquered Indians could be freely dispossessed of their lands, and the answer was no. A statue of Vitoria stands in NY, in the UN plaza, because of that. (Or maybe not anymore, but it used to.) 

    Also, what Spain did do: 
    – spent men and treasure to evangelize (yes, it counts, for it helped preserve locals tongues and helped in the education/assimilation)
    – technology transfer (too long, but the mill, the wheel, several types of metallurgy, the plow, gunpowder, printing press, writing itself… Long list)
    – built hospitals (Isabella specified in 1503 for poor people, christians and Indians alike)
    – built universities (already 13 by the time Harvard was founded in 1636:  Santo Domingo, Lima, México, Santiago, Bogotá, … I’ll leave it there)
    – the missionaries lobbyed successfully for exempting the Indians from tithing since the XVI, though regular (white) christians were not.
    – The Crown outlawed slavery for Indians,mand the Jesuits even helped them defend themselves against slavers. There’s a good article about the Battle of Mbororé in Wikipedia, quite interesting.

    Do not wholly believe the “Black Legend”, forged deliberately against Spain by recognized fraudsters such as Theodore de Bry.

    @ class and race in Mexico go together…. 75% Amerindians

    My point is precisely that Mexico is mostly homogenous: mestizo, and thus classist instead of  racist. You need different races to be racist.The official site for population numbers, INEGI, gives the number of “indigenous language speakers” as 7 million, out of 119 million. No numbers given for whites. Yes, many whites are elite, and probably very few are in extreme poverty (but there are some “pretty white” that live in ejidos in northern states such as Sonora). OTOH, the President is clearly mestizo, as are many top politicians and media personalities. 

    http://cuentame.inegi.org.mx/poblacion/lindigena.aspx?tema=P

    Sorry about not finding link in English, I’m rushed but tried answering anyway, even if disjointedly. I think your link is playing fast and loose with definitions, either out of the need to indoctrinate hatred or because of government handouts, or both, take a look at what “cultural activists” prefer:

    The category of “indigena” (indigenous) can be defined narrowly according to linguistic criteria including only persons that speak one of Mexico’s 89 indigenous languages, this is the categorization used by the National Mexican Institute of Statistics. It can also be defined broadly to include all persons who self identify as having an indigenous cultural background, whether or not they speak the language of the indigenous group they identify with. This means that the percentage of the Mexican population defined as “indigenous” varies according to the definition applied; cultural activists have referred to the usage of the narrow definition of the term for census purposes as “statistical genocide”.[8][9]

    • Replies: @Anon
    Oh, and about men's needs. If a Spanish woman slept with an Indian or mestizo, marriage it was. It was really a universal moral order, based on the conduct itself.
    , @syonredux

    @ mixed marriages were a necessity … Turn to for sexual release…. Spanish Encomienda

    You are seriously saying sexual release necessitates marriage?
     

    Makes a nice add-on. And lots of Spaniards supplemented the wife with concubines/secondary wives. And then there's rape.....A Mexicanist colleague of mine likes to joke about Mexico being one vast "rape-a-thon" for the Spaniards....

    The mestizo “race” was born under Spanish conquest.
     
    Please don't start on that "cosmic race" rubbish....

    Try finding some under British colonies.
     
    No need for 'em. The English colonies had European women.

    You might not like mestizos,
     
    Smarter than Amerinds, dumber than Europeans.

    but from the Indian point of view, it went much better if you were conquered by Spain than by England.
     
    Dunno. The die-off was pretty awful ...

    Coe, Snow and Benson, Atlas of Ancient America (1986)
    Total pre-Columbian population: 40M
    Mexico: Original population of 11M to 25M ("lower figure commands more support") fell to 1.25M (1625)
    Peru: Pop. fell from 9M (1533) to >500,000 (early 17th C)
    Brazil: Original population of 2.5M to 5.0M ("recent commentators favoring the higher") fell to 1M


    Massimo Livi-Bacci, Concise History of World Population History 2d (1996)
    Mexico: Population fell from 6.3M (1548) to 1.9M (1580) to 1M (1605)
    Peru: Pop. fell from 1.3M (1572) to 600,000 (1620)

    Skidmore & Smith, Modern Latin America (1997)
    Mexico: Population fell from 25M (1519) to 16.8M (1523) to 1.9M (1580) to 1M (1605)
    Peru: from 1.3M (1570, forty years after Conquest) to <600,000 (1620)

     


    The Encomienda system was quite imperfect
     
    That's putting it mildly.....

    Also, what Spain did do:
    - spent men and treasure to evangelize (yes, it counts, for it helped preserve locals tongues and helped in the education/assimilation)
    - technology transfer (too long, but the mill, the wheel, several types of metallurgy, the plow, gunpowder, printing press, writing itself… Long list)
    - built hospitals (Isabella specified in 1503 for poor people, christians and Indians alike)
    - built universities (already 13 by the time Harvard was founded in 1636: Santo Domingo, Lima, México, Santiago, Bogotá, … I’ll leave it there)
     
    On the other hand, the Puritans founded Harvard only six years after the founding of the colony itself...and they didn't have the backing of a King or an established Church...

    - the missionaries lobbyed successfully for exempting the Indians from tithing since the XVI, though regular (white) christians were not.
    - The Crown outlawed slavery for Indians,mand the Jesuits even helped them defend themselves against slavers. There’s a good article about the Battle of Mbororé in Wikipedia, quite interesting.
     
    and yet Amerinds kept on dying....

    Do not wholly believe the “Black Legend”, forged deliberately against Spain by recognized fraudsters such as Theodore de Bry.
     
    And, in your case, dear boy, try not to fall for the White Legend....

    @ class and race in Mexico go together…. 75% Amerindians

    My point is precisely that Mexico is mostly homogenous: mestizo, and thus classist instead of racist
     

    Far from homogeneous, dear boy. The Whiter you are, the better off you are:

    Mestizo actors conspicuously absent from commercial ads in Mexico

    Light-skinned actors get the vast majority of roles in television commercials in Mexico, laying bare the racism that persists in this majority mestizo nation.

    “Commercials for consumer products require an aspirational profile, and that is white with light eyes, medium height and between 25 and 45 years old. The international Latino type,” actor Rodrigo Franco, president of the National Interpreters Association, told EFE.

    The 51-year-old Franco, who is 1.56 meters (5-foot-1) in height and has “typical Mexican” features, said he had faced repeated discrimination in the advertising and acting worlds.

    He said that unfair treatment had included being asked by a director to furnish an acting degree at an audition for a part as a construction worker and being kicked off a set by a security guard who said he could not be part of the cast because of his appearance.


    Options for the “native Mexican” are restricted to commercials on government programs, which make up just 5 percent of television ads, Franco said.

    In August 2013, a casting call sparked outrage. Mexico’s flagship air carrier, Aeromexico, said it was looking for actors and actresses for one of its commercials but specified that it wanted “nobody dark-skinned.”

     

    http://www.efe.com/efe/english/life/mestizo-actors-conspicuously-absent-from-commercial-ads-in-mexico/50000263-3133515

    . You need different races to be racist.
     
    And you've got 'em, dear boy.

    The official site for population numbers, INEGI, gives the number of “indigenous language speakers” as 7 million, out of 119 million.
     
    Too low. There are Amerinds who don't speak Amerind languages...

    No numbers given for whites.
     
    Estimates that I've seen are around 10% of the population.

    OTOH, the President is clearly mestizo,
     
    Dunno. He looks White to me


    http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/files/2015/06/Enrique-Pena-Nieto.jpg

  64. @Anon
    @ mixed marriages were a necessity ... Turn to for sexual release.... Spanish Encomienda

    You are seriously saying sexual release necessitates marriage? The Spanish Crown (starting with Queen Isabella) for moral (Christian) considerations, promoted marriage. Indians were legally recognized as "having souls", and as such as having the same rights as Spaniards. Mexico was a province of Spain, with recourse to courts (Cortes de Indias) same as other parts of the Empire (Naples). One has to remember that Colón was covered with acclaim, title and rewards after his first return, but (having proved to be an incompetent, often cruel administrator), made his last return to Spain in chains.

    The mestizo "race" was born under Spanish conquest. Try finding some under British colonies. You might not like mestizos, but from the Indian point of view, it went much better if you were conquered by Spain than by England.

    The Encomienda system was quite imperfect and was slowly modified. The misión es worked well for the misiónados, on the other hand. Of course the Indians, a more backward civilization, were conquered and abused. But international law was born because Charles V ask Dominican priests whether the conquered Indians could be freely dispossessed of their lands, and the answer was no. A statue of Vitoria stands in NY, in the UN plaza, because of that. (Or maybe not anymore, but it used to.) 

    Also, what Spain did do: 
    - spent men and treasure to evangelize (yes, it counts, for it helped preserve locals tongues and helped in the education/assimilation)
    - technology transfer (too long, but the mill, the wheel, several types of metallurgy, the plow, gunpowder, printing press, writing itself... Long list)
    - built hospitals (Isabella specified in 1503 for poor people, christians and Indians alike)
    - built universities (already 13 by the time Harvard was founded in 1636:  Santo Domingo, Lima, México, Santiago, Bogotá, ... I'll leave it there)
    - the missionaries lobbyed successfully for exempting the Indians from tithing since the XVI, though regular (white) christians were not.
    - The Crown outlawed slavery for Indians,mand the Jesuits even helped them defend themselves against slavers. There's a good article about the Battle of Mbororé in Wikipedia, quite interesting.

    Do not wholly believe the "Black Legend", forged deliberately against Spain by recognized fraudsters such as Theodore de Bry.

    @ class and race in Mexico go together.... 75% Amerindians

    My point is precisely that Mexico is mostly homogenous: mestizo, and thus classist instead of  racist. You need different races to be racist.The official site for population numbers, INEGI, gives the number of "indigenous language speakers" as 7 million, out of 119 million. No numbers given for whites. Yes, many whites are elite, and probably very few are in extreme poverty (but there are some "pretty white" that live in ejidos in northern states such as Sonora). OTOH, the President is clearly mestizo, as are many top politicians and media personalities. 

    http://cuentame.inegi.org.mx/poblacion/lindigena.aspx?tema=P

    Sorry about not finding link in English, I'm rushed but tried answering anyway, even if disjointedly. I think your link is playing fast and loose with definitions, either out of the need to indoctrinate hatred or because of government handouts, or both, take a look at what "cultural activists" prefer:

    The category of "indigena" (indigenous) can be defined narrowly according to linguistic criteria including only persons that speak one of Mexico's 89 indigenous languages, this is the categorization used by the National Mexican Institute of Statistics. It can also be defined broadly to include all persons who self identify as having an indigenous cultural background, whether or not they speak the language of the indigenous group they identify with. This means that the percentage of the Mexican population defined as "indigenous" varies according to the definition applied; cultural activists have referred to the usage of the narrow definition of the term for census purposes as "statistical genocide".[8][9]

    Oh, and about men’s needs. If a Spanish woman slept with an Indian or mestizo, marriage it was. It was really a universal moral order, based on the conduct itself.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Oh, and about men’s needs. If a Spanish woman slept with an Indian or mestizo, marriage it was. It was really a universal moral order, based on the conduct itself.
     
    And if he slept with nine or ten, it was polygyny.....
  65. @Travis
    Asian skin whitening has a tradition that stretches back 2,000 years..."The feminine ideal during the Han period for women of the court was almost unearthly white, white skin. Moon-like roundish faces, long black hair. You can see how a culture that maintained that as an ideal might continue with an ideal that light skin equals beauty," said Anne Rose Kitagawa, assistant curator of Japanese art at Harvard’s Sackler Museum. The beauty industries in Taiwan emphasize different skin tones and say that if you can be as white as Japanese women you can be as beautiful as a cherry blossom.

    It's not surprising why Japan has such an abundance of whitening products. The preference for white, flawless skin has been around forever in Japan - long before the influences of western culture. There's even an old Japanese proverb that translates to "white skin covers the seven flaws," meaning that even a woman with unattractive facial features can seem beautiful if she has fair skin. as early as the third century Japanese women used bags of rice bran and supplies of nightingale droppings to whiten their skin.

    Interesting. I wonder if it is an innate biological desire or something else. Just thinking out loud…

  66. @nebulafox
    In Latin America, race works differently, as a spectrum. That's the trick: guys like Ramos or Garcetti would be European descended criollos in Central America, at the top of the societal privilege latter, yet pass themselves off as oppressed minorities in the US, akin to the mestizo illegal migrants. It's a massive con. In truth, the Mexican elite openly despise the darker-skinned masses, viewing them at best as mindless pawns in their schemes, and aren't subtle about it.

    (Obviously, Latin America isn't a hegemon. You have places like Argentina or Chile which are more or less outposts of Europe, and places that are predominantly indigenous, like Peru. Northeastern Brazil-Bahia-is heavily African, whereas the Southeast is a mixing pot between various European groups, Japanese, and Maronite Lebanese. Comparing Argentina to Bolivia is like comparing the Philippines to South Korea: yes, they are both "Asian", roughly speaking, but don't share much in common.)

    >In general, in Mexican movies, African looks were seen as more socially scandalous than Amerindian looks.

    This seems to be something that Mexico actually shares in common with the US. Our Founding Fathers tended to view natives much like Tacitus views the ancient German and Briton tribes-aka, their ancestors before Rome brought civilization, a fact that wasn't lost on many in 1700s America and elicited mixed feelings. The whole "noble savage" thing-backward, primitive, and barbaric, but also strictly honorable and un-corrupt, honest, simple, tough, egalitarian, and a living reproach to the soft decadence and Machiavellian manipulation of court politics in Europe. It wasn't until the 1800s came along that the ambivalent approach to the indigenous peoples gave way to the more exploitative Manifest Destiny.

    It was considered a point of pride by many aristocratic planter families in the old South in particular to claim to have a little Cherokee or Creek warrior blood flowing through their veins. African blood, on the other hand, was to be swept under the carpet, at all costs, in spite of being a very visible elephant in the room.

    guys like Ramos or Garcetti would be European descended criollos in Central America, at the top of the societal privilege latter, yet pass themselves off as oppressed minorities in the US, akin to the mestizo illegal migrants

    I know a few Latin Americans from wealthy families. I suppose they might check off “Hispanic” on applications and reap the benefits, but they do not mix with lower class Latinos (I know a Mexican who forced her Anglo husband to turn down a lucrative job offer in LA, too may poor Mexicans there) and have very non-PC and are public about it. One South American girl told me that she and another one, the only non-“whites” (these two were European-looking too) in some diversity class at a liberal arts college, got the worst grades in the class due to constantly challenging the professor’s B.S. about privilege and oppression.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @ I know a Mexican who forced her Anglo husband to turn down a lucrative job offer in LA, too may poor Mexicans there).

    I somehow doubt that. They could have lived among the upper class Mexicans, as they do in Miami, New York or Houston. Or among same-class Anglos. There is even a little enclave in Pasadena. Perhaps they did not like the general LA vibe, I know of one particular couple who relocated to Houston because of the more family-friendly atmosphere.
  67. @Triumph104
    Sandra Laing, a black South African born to white parents who were members of the Nationalist Party. They had the Supreme Court declare her white. (LINK)

    Zachary and Riva Timas (both black) with their four biological children (LINK)

    David Justice (half white/half black) and white Hispanic wife and their three biologial children (LINK)

    Jason Taylor's children have one black grandparent and three white grandparents (LINK)

    Then there’s Saul “Canelo” Alvarez, the great Mexican middleweight boxer. He has reddish hair and very pale skin, in fact Canelo means cinnamon in Spanish. He basically looks completely white.
    Alvarez attributes his fighting skills to his coloration. His parents and siblings are much more mestizo looking than he is, and when growing up other kids used to say that his mother must have fooled around with a white man. He somewhat reluctantly had to get into fistfights to defend her honor, and the skills he learned made him into a top boxer.

    • Replies: @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    I understand that a couple can have a child with lighter skin color than either parent. Each parent could have a recessive gene for lighter skin and each could pass that recessive gene to a child, resulting in a child with lighter skin than either parent.

    But I still don't understand how two light skin parents can have a child with darker skin than either parent.

    Clearly if a child is out in the sun more than either parent, that child might appear to be more dark skinned, but that has nothing to do with genetics.
  68. There is a popular cookie sold in Japan called “White Lover”.

  69. @J.Ross
    This is the kill shot of this discussion. We used to have an English vocabulary of racial purity (mulatto, octaroon, quatroon, high yeller, redbone). We stopped using it before I was born, during a period now thought of as unacceptably racist. The Spanish-speaking world still has and still uses this categorization set, and it will probably still do so after I am dead.

    Well. Don’t trust Internet education. He meant the list of ‘castes’ attempted during colonial times. By around 1750’s people already stated the obvious: “the distinctions would have no end”. Thus were born the mestizos. People today only use Indian, mestizo and white. Though the term mulatto is also known, I’d say negro is more common.

  70. Mexicans want to be white.

  71. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    guys like Ramos or Garcetti would be European descended criollos in Central America, at the top of the societal privilege latter, yet pass themselves off as oppressed minorities in the US, akin to the mestizo illegal migrants
     
    I know a few Latin Americans from wealthy families. I suppose they might check off "Hispanic" on applications and reap the benefits, but they do not mix with lower class Latinos (I know a Mexican who forced her Anglo husband to turn down a lucrative job offer in LA, too may poor Mexicans there) and have very non-PC and are public about it. One South American girl told me that she and another one, the only non-"whites" (these two were European-looking too) in some diversity class at a liberal arts college, got the worst grades in the class due to constantly challenging the professor's B.S. about privilege and oppression.

    @ I know a Mexican who forced her Anglo husband to turn down a lucrative job offer in LA, too may poor Mexicans there).

    I somehow doubt that. They could have lived among the upper class Mexicans, as they do in Miami, New York or Houston. Or among same-class Anglos. There is even a little enclave in Pasadena. Perhaps they did not like the general LA vibe, I know of one particular couple who relocated to Houston because of the more family-friendly atmosphere.

    • Replies: @AP

    They could have lived among the upper class Mexicans, as they do in Miami, New York or Houston.
     
    They indeed ended up moving to one of those non-Houston cities, then leaving for Europe. But LA was out of the question. She was horrified after visiting it, and had no intention of living in a metro area full of those kind of Mexicans.
  72. @Anon
    Sailer wants to ignite the commentariat. The only well-known movie with "dark" babies is "Angelitos Negros", in which the dark baby is not mestizo or brown, but mulatto, black. Melodramatic in tone, the moral characters in the movie love the baby. Part of the "teaching" about correct moral choices the media did back then.

    The Spanish Crown promoted marriage anytime a baby was in the stakes, (and they kept clear records and understanding of the mixes), that is why there is a mixed race, not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.

    Mexico is not overall a racist country, it is simply very classist (class conscious or discriminatory). Pure Indians, of which there there are few left, are often pitied. The U.S. is racist (race conscious or discriminatory) and more classist than it publicly admits.

    In fact the conquistadors were very efficient in exterminating huge numbers of Indians. Probably more Indians were killed in Mexico in a few years then died in the whole history of settlement of the USA.

    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @Anon
    Well. Probably more died in absolute terms, certainly, because there were a lot more Aztecs and Incas than apaches and Comanches. Their civilizations were sedentary, Tenochtitlan was larger than many Europeans capitals. However, this "extermination" was not government policy, rather the natural result of the spread of diseases to which the indigenous population had no resistance.

    And, as noted above, from 1503, a network of hospitals was built with specific instructions that they be for the poor "Christians and Indias alike." Same for the universities. The New Spain was, from a legal standpoint, the same as a continental Spain province. There were the Cortes de Indias,and direct appeals could --and were-- made to the King. The network of the Misiones also worked well for the misiónados, and not only evangelized, but were a highly efficient way of transferring technology and skills.

    Of course the stronger groups (Spanish) abused the weaker Indians. But the Spanish colonial policies were much more benevolent and fair (same rules for all) than English ones.
  73. @Bu'bha al-Teksani
    The colonial bureaucrats of Spanish America propounded an ornate classification system of admixtures of indigenes, Spaniards, and slaves, with names for the mixes. For instance, an Indian/African mix was called a zambo [pronounced 'sambo']. Ring any bells? A certain Indio/Spanish mix was called a coyote. When I was a kid growing up in New Mexico, most of the Spanish-speakers were of stock going back to the 17th Century. 'Coyote' was the slang for a gringo/Spanish cross, or sometimes cauterón, a lot like quadroon, classifications that appear in the colonial system. For visuals, search for 'pinturas de castas,' paintings that illustrated the purported characteristics of different mixes. All interesting; many of the paintings are lovely as well as educational.
    I always wondered why Chino was a nickname for a curly-headed guy as it means Chinese, not at all curly-headed. Turns out that some black mix produced a head of hair that curled like the tail of a pig, a 'cochino,' and the 'co' went away leaving the chino.

    For visuals, search for ‘pinturas de castas,’ paintings that illustrated the purported characteristics of different mixes.

    Thanks.

  74. @J.Ross
    The best polyglots are Hungarian, and the Dutch are well established below them, and in both cases they will tell you it's because nobody's going to learn Dutch or Hungarian.

    I have a pet theory that the reason Jesuits are such language-heads is because Loyola and Xavier were Basques.

  75. @peterike
    This topic lends itself very nicely to reminding everyone of the Poor Little Rich Girls of Mexico. Honestly, who doesn't love looking at these pictures?

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2012/12/11/daniela_rossell_documenting_the_rich_and_famous_mexican_youth_photos.html

    Poor Little Rich Girls of Mexico.

    Good job Freud’s discredited; we might have read an awful lot into some of those snaps.

  76. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    In fact the conquistadors were very efficient in exterminating huge numbers of Indians. Probably more Indians were killed in Mexico in a few years then died in the whole history of settlement of the USA.

    Well. Probably more died in absolute terms, certainly, because there were a lot more Aztecs and Incas than apaches and Comanches. Their civilizations were sedentary, Tenochtitlan was larger than many Europeans capitals. However, this “extermination” was not government policy, rather the natural result of the spread of diseases to which the indigenous population had no resistance.

    And, as noted above, from 1503, a network of hospitals was built with specific instructions that they be for the poor “Christians and Indias alike.” Same for the universities. The New Spain was, from a legal standpoint, the same as a continental Spain province. There were the Cortes de Indias,and direct appeals could –and were– made to the King. The network of the Misiones also worked well for the misiónados, and not only evangelized, but were a highly efficient way of transferring technology and skills.

    Of course the stronger groups (Spanish) abused the weaker Indians. But the Spanish colonial policies were much more benevolent and fair (same rules for all) than English ones.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.
  77. @Autochthon
    Who the Hell are any of these people? Should we know? Should we care? I'm not trying to be a smartass. Ive never heard of any of these people in my life, despite consuming far more news and popular culture than I wish I did and than anyone probably should.

    Short explanation:

    Linda Sarsour is a Saudi regime shill and former Iraqi regime shill who has been embraced by “woke” feminists because she is extremely anti-Trump, wears a headscarf, talks with a Brooklyn accent, and is supposedly a Palestinian who is against Israel. She was the chairperson of the pussy hat march against Trump.

    Those other people are nobodies who worked for/with her before she pretended to be a feminist, back when she worked at a Muslim organization.

  78. @Anon
    Well. Probably more died in absolute terms, certainly, because there were a lot more Aztecs and Incas than apaches and Comanches. Their civilizations were sedentary, Tenochtitlan was larger than many Europeans capitals. However, this "extermination" was not government policy, rather the natural result of the spread of diseases to which the indigenous population had no resistance.

    And, as noted above, from 1503, a network of hospitals was built with specific instructions that they be for the poor "Christians and Indias alike." Same for the universities. The New Spain was, from a legal standpoint, the same as a continental Spain province. There were the Cortes de Indias,and direct appeals could --and were-- made to the King. The network of the Misiones also worked well for the misiónados, and not only evangelized, but were a highly efficient way of transferring technology and skills.

    Of course the stronger groups (Spanish) abused the weaker Indians. But the Spanish colonial policies were much more benevolent and fair (same rules for all) than English ones.

    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.

    • Replies: @BB753
    That's right, but Las Casas' efforts to protect Amerindians brought about the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Which almost totally ruined the New World.
    , @Dan Hayes
    Steve & Anon:

    Yours are welcome antithesises to The Black Legend.
    , @anonguy

    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.
     
    And the popular perception today is the direct opposite and the result of the Black Legend.
    , @syonredux

    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.
     
    and yet, the Amerind die-off was tremendous....
  79. @Steve Sailer
    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.

    That’s right, but Las Casas’ efforts to protect Amerindians brought about the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Which almost totally ruined the New World.

  80. @prosa123
    Then there's Saul "Canelo" Alvarez, the great Mexican middleweight boxer. He has reddish hair and very pale skin, in fact Canelo means cinnamon in Spanish. He basically looks completely white.
    Alvarez attributes his fighting skills to his coloration. His parents and siblings are much more mestizo looking than he is, and when growing up other kids used to say that his mother must have fooled around with a white man. He somewhat reluctantly had to get into fistfights to defend her honor, and the skills he learned made him into a top boxer.

    I understand that a couple can have a child with lighter skin color than either parent. Each parent could have a recessive gene for lighter skin and each could pass that recessive gene to a child, resulting in a child with lighter skin than either parent.

    But I still don’t understand how two light skin parents can have a child with darker skin than either parent.

    Clearly if a child is out in the sun more than either parent, that child might appear to be more dark skinned, but that has nothing to do with genetics.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    But I still don’t understand how two light skin parents can have a child with darker skin than either parent.
     
    Simple additive genetic effects. Same way my son is taller than I am even though my wife is shorter than average (i.e. shorter than I am even normalized for sex). Same way i'm smarter than both my parents.

    This is how most genetic characteristics work. And it's easy to do for skin color because there are four or five genes with pretty huge effects.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color#Europe

    If you're from a mixed population where one or more of them are not fixed, then there's a good chance you can toss your kid one or the other ("light" or "dark") and if your wife is from a mixed population she's doing the same. The odds of quite a bit of variation among your children--"the fair one", "the dark one"--are high.
  81. @Steve Sailer
    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.

    Steve & Anon:

    Yours are welcome antithesises to The Black Legend.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Steve & Anon:

    Yours are welcome antithesises to The Black Legend.
     
    Try not to fall for the White Legend....
  82. @J.Ross
    The best polyglots are Hungarian, and the Dutch are well established below them, and in both cases they will tell you it's because nobody's going to learn Dutch or Hungarian.

    Dutch is easy, especially if you already know German.
    But there ain’t nothin’ you can learn beforehand which will make Hungarian any less of a nightmare.
    Thomas Molnar once told me ruefully that, after the fall of Communism and his triumphant return to Hungarian academe, he had to relearn his own language after some forty years of disuse.

    In fact of the Western European languages it is more Danish than Dutch which is unlikely to be learned by a foreigner. Indeed, the best non-native speaker of English I know is a subject of that nation’s gracious queen.

  83. @Anon
    Sailer wants to ignite the commentariat. The only well-known movie with "dark" babies is "Angelitos Negros", in which the dark baby is not mestizo or brown, but mulatto, black. Melodramatic in tone, the moral characters in the movie love the baby. Part of the "teaching" about correct moral choices the media did back then.

    The Spanish Crown promoted marriage anytime a baby was in the stakes, (and they kept clear records and understanding of the mixes), that is why there is a mixed race, not extermination/reservations like in the U.S.

    Mexico is not overall a racist country, it is simply very classist (class conscious or discriminatory). Pure Indians, of which there there are few left, are often pitied. The U.S. is racist (race conscious or discriminatory) and more classist than it publicly admits.

    As a Latin from a similar country, I would have to say Mexico is racist – they just display it in a different way, much more subtle.

    Since the conquistadors desperately needed women and slave labor, as well as having the excuse/mandate to evangelize the world for the Pope, obviously intermarriage was allowed alongside forced conversion and serfdom schemes such as encomiendas, misiones, mitas, obrajes, etc. Anglo settlers usually had enough women for themselves; and since they weren’t employees of the Crown sent to extract all they could like the conquistadors, Anglos didn’t bother integrating Indians into society. You could say they were racist and genocidal then, and that perhaps they are too race-conscious now; however, I would argue that Latins are less race-conscious but more racist in effect, given that when it comes to classes, they are incredibly class-conscious – and modern classes in Latin America are likewise invariably connected to the old Spanish racial caste system, which has survived in spite of Latin America having achieved independence nearly two centuries ago now. Why would that be, if indeed all races and cultures are equally able to achieve enlightenment? And no, we really cannot blame the gringos for absolutely everything. The conquistadors, maybe a bit more, but again, not absolutely everything.

    Said caste system, by the way, as you mention, was established by the Crown itself – isn’t that incredibly race-conscious too, monitoring every nook and cranny of your family tree and making up many terms? The Anglos may have had an unfair one-drop rule regarding blacks that turned blacks into second class citizens, but the reverse one-drop rule of Latins (just one drop of white makes you not an Indian and not a black) effectively meant that the mixed ones were second class and the fully-brown-and-black were now third class. And this establishment survives to the present day; the only reason we don’t have race wars is that intermarriage worked to a degree to prevent them, while also on the other hand enabling the class wars that invariably arise every generation. Right now for example, we are seeing mostly-brown and worker-peasant-bureaucrat-led Socialismo del Siglo 21 swing back to 90s-style elite-friendly, OAS-friendly, IMF-friendly white and mixed-middle-class right-of-center parties. Which will probably lose power as they get too greedy… again.

    Just like the peninsulares of old, the white Latin criollo elite likewise holds its nose when it sees their daughter going out with someone that looks too “poor”, who invariably also tends to look more mestizo, Indian or black. And likewise, many mestizos and mulattos (who can be mixed in many degrees, usually less than half) tend to aspire to be just like the white criollos when they get paid. Just like in America, blacks and Hispanics love white women – even if they prefer that they have bigger butts and tans.

    And sure, Indians always get the Holocaust tear-eyed treatment come October 12 by the world’s left, but no one in Latin America dares to call it “Día de los Indios” – first because we are not dumb and realize Indians rather remember their own ancestral holidays and not the day their civilizations ended, but also because we are not dumb and realize most of our ancestors were conquistadors or were screwed by one. Not to mention, without conquistadors, maybe just now we would be figuring out that wheels could be used to haul things, or finally leaving behind apocalyptic hieroglyphs about 2012. Besides, Indians either live willfully abstracted from the modern Latin world (which does not mind keeping them stuck at the bottom of the ladder, anyway), or try unsuccessfully to force utopian values on the rest of society through indigenist and leftist organizations (the latter usually pushed by Indian leaders who have selfish political purposes and don’t care about their communities; and I say utopian because one of their common demands is universal free access to water). Therefore, Indians in Latin America are seldom taken seriously in the political realm, unless it is to use them; sadly so, because some of them would like to both keep their traditions and communities while not become fellow travelers to white Marxists. (See a pattern, by the way?). In the US, you could say they have suffered greatly and somewhat still do – but hey, nowhere else are they huge casino owners either.

  84. @NickG

    Mexicans made a whole lot of movies in the 1950s about fair upscale couples who have a dark “throwback” babies.
     
    Skin tone is similarly socially charged in India. All Bollywood stars and starlets are notably pale skinned. The classified ads for marriage partners often belabour the fair skinned attributes of its subject or specifiy it as a requirement for a prospective bride.

    See for yourselves - just search the page for 'fair'.

    The practically all euro white Mexican Congress:

  85. @Anon
    @ I know a Mexican who forced her Anglo husband to turn down a lucrative job offer in LA, too may poor Mexicans there).

    I somehow doubt that. They could have lived among the upper class Mexicans, as they do in Miami, New York or Houston. Or among same-class Anglos. There is even a little enclave in Pasadena. Perhaps they did not like the general LA vibe, I know of one particular couple who relocated to Houston because of the more family-friendly atmosphere.

    They could have lived among the upper class Mexicans, as they do in Miami, New York or Houston.

    They indeed ended up moving to one of those non-Houston cities, then leaving for Europe. But LA was out of the question. She was horrified after visiting it, and had no intention of living in a metro area full of those kind of Mexicans.

  86. I was wondering, “how did they measure skin lightness?” I mean, how exactly would you do that? It’s not a straightforward thing – skin tone varies over the body, photos vary with lighting. I’m not saying that lighter/darker isn’t a thing, I’m saying that it would actually be rather difficult to measure.

    I mean, rather than this nice bar graph with it’s neat little ranges, I would expect a scatter graph.

    Then, all be came clear: “Overall, populations identified as having the lightest skin ”

    “identified as having”. Passive voice. Who did this identification? The researchers. How? They aren’t saying. “Populations” – not individuals.

    What has happened here is that these researchers have divvied up the population into strata based on education/income, and then gone “Yup – that bunch of people definitely look whiter to me than that bunch of people”.

  87. @Steve Sailer
    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.

    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.

    And the popular perception today is the direct opposite and the result of the Black Legend.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.

    And the popular perception today is the direct opposite and the result of the Black Legend.
     
    Depends. Some people are awfully fond of the White Legend....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend#White_Legend
  88. @Anon
    @ mixed marriages were a necessity ... Turn to for sexual release.... Spanish Encomienda

    You are seriously saying sexual release necessitates marriage? The Spanish Crown (starting with Queen Isabella) for moral (Christian) considerations, promoted marriage. Indians were legally recognized as "having souls", and as such as having the same rights as Spaniards. Mexico was a province of Spain, with recourse to courts (Cortes de Indias) same as other parts of the Empire (Naples). One has to remember that Colón was covered with acclaim, title and rewards after his first return, but (having proved to be an incompetent, often cruel administrator), made his last return to Spain in chains.

    The mestizo "race" was born under Spanish conquest. Try finding some under British colonies. You might not like mestizos, but from the Indian point of view, it went much better if you were conquered by Spain than by England.

    The Encomienda system was quite imperfect and was slowly modified. The misión es worked well for the misiónados, on the other hand. Of course the Indians, a more backward civilization, were conquered and abused. But international law was born because Charles V ask Dominican priests whether the conquered Indians could be freely dispossessed of their lands, and the answer was no. A statue of Vitoria stands in NY, in the UN plaza, because of that. (Or maybe not anymore, but it used to.) 

    Also, what Spain did do: 
    - spent men and treasure to evangelize (yes, it counts, for it helped preserve locals tongues and helped in the education/assimilation)
    - technology transfer (too long, but the mill, the wheel, several types of metallurgy, the plow, gunpowder, printing press, writing itself... Long list)
    - built hospitals (Isabella specified in 1503 for poor people, christians and Indians alike)
    - built universities (already 13 by the time Harvard was founded in 1636:  Santo Domingo, Lima, México, Santiago, Bogotá, ... I'll leave it there)
    - the missionaries lobbyed successfully for exempting the Indians from tithing since the XVI, though regular (white) christians were not.
    - The Crown outlawed slavery for Indians,mand the Jesuits even helped them defend themselves against slavers. There's a good article about the Battle of Mbororé in Wikipedia, quite interesting.

    Do not wholly believe the "Black Legend", forged deliberately against Spain by recognized fraudsters such as Theodore de Bry.

    @ class and race in Mexico go together.... 75% Amerindians

    My point is precisely that Mexico is mostly homogenous: mestizo, and thus classist instead of  racist. You need different races to be racist.The official site for population numbers, INEGI, gives the number of "indigenous language speakers" as 7 million, out of 119 million. No numbers given for whites. Yes, many whites are elite, and probably very few are in extreme poverty (but there are some "pretty white" that live in ejidos in northern states such as Sonora). OTOH, the President is clearly mestizo, as are many top politicians and media personalities. 

    http://cuentame.inegi.org.mx/poblacion/lindigena.aspx?tema=P

    Sorry about not finding link in English, I'm rushed but tried answering anyway, even if disjointedly. I think your link is playing fast and loose with definitions, either out of the need to indoctrinate hatred or because of government handouts, or both, take a look at what "cultural activists" prefer:

    The category of "indigena" (indigenous) can be defined narrowly according to linguistic criteria including only persons that speak one of Mexico's 89 indigenous languages, this is the categorization used by the National Mexican Institute of Statistics. It can also be defined broadly to include all persons who self identify as having an indigenous cultural background, whether or not they speak the language of the indigenous group they identify with. This means that the percentage of the Mexican population defined as "indigenous" varies according to the definition applied; cultural activists have referred to the usage of the narrow definition of the term for census purposes as "statistical genocide".[8][9]

    @ mixed marriages were a necessity … Turn to for sexual release…. Spanish Encomienda

    You are seriously saying sexual release necessitates marriage?

    Makes a nice add-on. And lots of Spaniards supplemented the wife with concubines/secondary wives. And then there’s rape…..A Mexicanist colleague of mine likes to joke about Mexico being one vast “rape-a-thon” for the Spaniards….

    The mestizo “race” was born under Spanish conquest.

    Please don’t start on that “cosmic race” rubbish….

    Try finding some under British colonies.

    No need for ’em. The English colonies had European women.

    You might not like mestizos,

    Smarter than Amerinds, dumber than Europeans.

    but from the Indian point of view, it went much better if you were conquered by Spain than by England.

    Dunno. The die-off was pretty awful …

    Coe, Snow and Benson, Atlas of Ancient America (1986)
    Total pre-Columbian population: 40M
    Mexico: Original population of 11M to 25M (“lower figure commands more support”) fell to 1.25M (1625)
    Peru: Pop. fell from 9M (1533) to >500,000 (early 17th C)
    Brazil: Original population of 2.5M to 5.0M (“recent commentators favoring the higher”) fell to 1M

    Massimo Livi-Bacci, Concise History of World Population History 2d (1996)
    Mexico: Population fell from 6.3M (1548) to 1.9M (1580) to 1M (1605)
    Peru: Pop. fell from 1.3M (1572) to 600,000 (1620)

    Skidmore & Smith, Modern Latin America (1997)
    Mexico: Population fell from 25M (1519) to 16.8M (1523) to 1.9M (1580) to 1M (1605)
    Peru: from 1.3M (1570, forty years after Conquest) to <600,000 (1620)

    The Encomienda system was quite imperfect

    That’s putting it mildly…..

    Also, what Spain did do:
    – spent men and treasure to evangelize (yes, it counts, for it helped preserve locals tongues and helped in the education/assimilation)
    – technology transfer (too long, but the mill, the wheel, several types of metallurgy, the plow, gunpowder, printing press, writing itself… Long list)
    – built hospitals (Isabella specified in 1503 for poor people, christians and Indians alike)
    – built universities (already 13 by the time Harvard was founded in 1636: Santo Domingo, Lima, México, Santiago, Bogotá, … I’ll leave it there)

    On the other hand, the Puritans founded Harvard only six years after the founding of the colony itself…and they didn’t have the backing of a King or an established Church…

    – the missionaries lobbyed successfully for exempting the Indians from tithing since the XVI, though regular (white) christians were not.
    – The Crown outlawed slavery for Indians,mand the Jesuits even helped them defend themselves against slavers. There’s a good article about the Battle of Mbororé in Wikipedia, quite interesting.

    and yet Amerinds kept on dying….

    Do not wholly believe the “Black Legend”, forged deliberately against Spain by recognized fraudsters such as Theodore de Bry.

    And, in your case, dear boy, try not to fall for the White Legend….

    @ class and race in Mexico go together…. 75% Amerindians

    My point is precisely that Mexico is mostly homogenous: mestizo, and thus classist instead of racist

    Far from homogeneous, dear boy. The Whiter you are, the better off you are:

    Mestizo actors conspicuously absent from commercial ads in Mexico

    Light-skinned actors get the vast majority of roles in television commercials in Mexico, laying bare the racism that persists in this majority mestizo nation.

    “Commercials for consumer products require an aspirational profile, and that is white with light eyes, medium height and between 25 and 45 years old. The international Latino type,” actor Rodrigo Franco, president of the National Interpreters Association, told EFE.

    The 51-year-old Franco, who is 1.56 meters (5-foot-1) in height and has “typical Mexican” features, said he had faced repeated discrimination in the advertising and acting worlds.

    He said that unfair treatment had included being asked by a director to furnish an acting degree at an audition for a part as a construction worker and being kicked off a set by a security guard who said he could not be part of the cast because of his appearance.

    Options for the “native Mexican” are restricted to commercials on government programs, which make up just 5 percent of television ads, Franco said.

    In August 2013, a casting call sparked outrage. Mexico’s flagship air carrier, Aeromexico, said it was looking for actors and actresses for one of its commercials but specified that it wanted “nobody dark-skinned.”

    http://www.efe.com/efe/english/life/mestizo-actors-conspicuously-absent-from-commercial-ads-in-mexico/50000263-3133515

    . You need different races to be racist.

    And you’ve got ’em, dear boy.

    The official site for population numbers, INEGI, gives the number of “indigenous language speakers” as 7 million, out of 119 million.

    Too low. There are Amerinds who don’t speak Amerind languages…

    No numbers given for whites.

    Estimates that I’ve seen are around 10% of the population.

    OTOH, the President is clearly mestizo,

    Dunno. He looks White to me

    • Replies: @BB753
    I understand modern Mexican anthropologists use two very useful terms for "mestizo" : "euromestizo"
    ( mestizo with predominant European ancestry) and "indomestizo" (the converse).

    As for Nieto Pena, if you're familiar with Mediterranean Europeans, you'll notice he has very abundant (for his age) and thick hair (a giveaway for admixture), which is very unusual in the old world, where over 3/4 of men Nieto Pena's age would be balding and probably more grey. That's Amerindian hair, if you ask me, while the rest of his features are pretty European.
    I don't know where the cut-off lies in Mexico for the white or whitish elites to be considered fully white ( only 10 or 5 % Amerindian? ), so Nieto Pena could be considered socially white in Mexico but a bit Mestizo anywhere else. In anthropological terms, he's most likely "euromestizo".

  89. @Anon
    Oh, and about men's needs. If a Spanish woman slept with an Indian or mestizo, marriage it was. It was really a universal moral order, based on the conduct itself.

    Oh, and about men’s needs. If a Spanish woman slept with an Indian or mestizo, marriage it was. It was really a universal moral order, based on the conduct itself.

    And if he slept with nine or ten, it was polygyny…..

  90. @Steve Sailer
    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.

    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.

    and yet, the Amerind die-off was tremendous….

  91. @anonguy

    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.
     
    And the popular perception today is the direct opposite and the result of the Black Legend.

    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.

    And the popular perception today is the direct opposite and the result of the Black Legend.

    Depends. Some people are awfully fond of the White Legend….

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend#White_Legend

    • Replies: @anonguy

    Depends. Some people are awfully fond of the White Legend….

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend#White_Legend
     
    Of course, people like binary black or white positions while most issues are in real life are shades of gray. I'm sure the reality about the Spanish lies somewhere between these two poles.
  92. @Dan Hayes
    Steve & Anon:

    Yours are welcome antithesises to The Black Legend.

    Steve & Anon:

    Yours are welcome antithesises to The Black Legend.

    Try not to fall for the White Legend….

  93. @syonredux

    The Spanish government was more concerned with indigenous welfare in the 1500s than the American government was for most of the 1800s. The Spanish pretty much invented modern human rights concerns.

    And the popular perception today is the direct opposite and the result of the Black Legend.
     
    Depends. Some people are awfully fond of the White Legend....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend#White_Legend

    Depends. Some people are awfully fond of the White Legend….

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend#White_Legend

    Of course, people like binary black or white positions while most issues are in real life are shades of gray. I’m sure the reality about the Spanish lies somewhere between these two poles.

  94. @Vinay
    I don’t know if this is another case of Americans insisting on viewing every damn society on the face of the planet through an American lens.

    For some social characteristic to be worth analyzing as obsessively as race, there has to be a fairly impermeable social BARRIER separating out communities of people. Skin color worked for the US but I’ve no idea whether it’ll work for Mexico. Religion works in many countries. Or it could be occupation.

    If skin tone works more or less like height or thinness, then analyzing whether lighter people do better is about as interesting than analyzing whether tall people or skinny people do better.

    For some social characteristic to be worth analyzing as obsessively as race, there has to be a fairly impermeable social BARRIER separating out communities of people.

    Not true. Ok, maybe true with the “as obsessively as race” qualifier. But a “fairly impermeable social BARRIER” is not required for some genetic characteristic to be interesting and worth analyzing. You only need some sort of selection/discrimination going on.

    Steve’s already given a pretty good explanation of how the Latin American color continuum works in a few articles long ago. It’s iSteve canon. There’s the very well known salience of color within blacks in the US–“brown paper tests” and all that–and it’s definitely a continuum not a barrier, but very important for understanding the social dynamics there.

    I thought you were an Indian guy? That color is reproductively and socially salient there, but not a “barrier” should be obvious.

    Skin color worked for the US but I’ve no idea whether it’ll work for Mexico.

    And someone has collected the data and found out the answer is … “yes”.

  95. @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    I understand that a couple can have a child with lighter skin color than either parent. Each parent could have a recessive gene for lighter skin and each could pass that recessive gene to a child, resulting in a child with lighter skin than either parent.

    But I still don't understand how two light skin parents can have a child with darker skin than either parent.

    Clearly if a child is out in the sun more than either parent, that child might appear to be more dark skinned, but that has nothing to do with genetics.

    But I still don’t understand how two light skin parents can have a child with darker skin than either parent.

    Simple additive genetic effects. Same way my son is taller than I am even though my wife is shorter than average (i.e. shorter than I am even normalized for sex). Same way i’m smarter than both my parents.

    This is how most genetic characteristics work. And it’s easy to do for skin color because there are four or five genes with pretty huge effects.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color#Europe

    If you’re from a mixed population where one or more of them are not fixed, then there’s a good chance you can toss your kid one or the other (“light” or “dark”) and if your wife is from a mixed population she’s doing the same. The odds of quite a bit of variation among your children–“the fair one”, “the dark one”–are high.

  96. @syonredux

    @ mixed marriages were a necessity … Turn to for sexual release…. Spanish Encomienda

    You are seriously saying sexual release necessitates marriage?
     

    Makes a nice add-on. And lots of Spaniards supplemented the wife with concubines/secondary wives. And then there's rape.....A Mexicanist colleague of mine likes to joke about Mexico being one vast "rape-a-thon" for the Spaniards....

    The mestizo “race” was born under Spanish conquest.
     
    Please don't start on that "cosmic race" rubbish....

    Try finding some under British colonies.
     
    No need for 'em. The English colonies had European women.

    You might not like mestizos,
     
    Smarter than Amerinds, dumber than Europeans.

    but from the Indian point of view, it went much better if you were conquered by Spain than by England.
     
    Dunno. The die-off was pretty awful ...

    Coe, Snow and Benson, Atlas of Ancient America (1986)
    Total pre-Columbian population: 40M
    Mexico: Original population of 11M to 25M ("lower figure commands more support") fell to 1.25M (1625)
    Peru: Pop. fell from 9M (1533) to >500,000 (early 17th C)
    Brazil: Original population of 2.5M to 5.0M ("recent commentators favoring the higher") fell to 1M


    Massimo Livi-Bacci, Concise History of World Population History 2d (1996)
    Mexico: Population fell from 6.3M (1548) to 1.9M (1580) to 1M (1605)
    Peru: Pop. fell from 1.3M (1572) to 600,000 (1620)

    Skidmore & Smith, Modern Latin America (1997)
    Mexico: Population fell from 25M (1519) to 16.8M (1523) to 1.9M (1580) to 1M (1605)
    Peru: from 1.3M (1570, forty years after Conquest) to <600,000 (1620)

     


    The Encomienda system was quite imperfect
     
    That's putting it mildly.....

    Also, what Spain did do:
    - spent men and treasure to evangelize (yes, it counts, for it helped preserve locals tongues and helped in the education/assimilation)
    - technology transfer (too long, but the mill, the wheel, several types of metallurgy, the plow, gunpowder, printing press, writing itself… Long list)
    - built hospitals (Isabella specified in 1503 for poor people, christians and Indians alike)
    - built universities (already 13 by the time Harvard was founded in 1636: Santo Domingo, Lima, México, Santiago, Bogotá, … I’ll leave it there)
     
    On the other hand, the Puritans founded Harvard only six years after the founding of the colony itself...and they didn't have the backing of a King or an established Church...

    - the missionaries lobbyed successfully for exempting the Indians from tithing since the XVI, though regular (white) christians were not.
    - The Crown outlawed slavery for Indians,mand the Jesuits even helped them defend themselves against slavers. There’s a good article about the Battle of Mbororé in Wikipedia, quite interesting.
     
    and yet Amerinds kept on dying....

    Do not wholly believe the “Black Legend”, forged deliberately against Spain by recognized fraudsters such as Theodore de Bry.
     
    And, in your case, dear boy, try not to fall for the White Legend....

    @ class and race in Mexico go together…. 75% Amerindians

    My point is precisely that Mexico is mostly homogenous: mestizo, and thus classist instead of racist
     

    Far from homogeneous, dear boy. The Whiter you are, the better off you are:

    Mestizo actors conspicuously absent from commercial ads in Mexico

    Light-skinned actors get the vast majority of roles in television commercials in Mexico, laying bare the racism that persists in this majority mestizo nation.

    “Commercials for consumer products require an aspirational profile, and that is white with light eyes, medium height and between 25 and 45 years old. The international Latino type,” actor Rodrigo Franco, president of the National Interpreters Association, told EFE.

    The 51-year-old Franco, who is 1.56 meters (5-foot-1) in height and has “typical Mexican” features, said he had faced repeated discrimination in the advertising and acting worlds.

    He said that unfair treatment had included being asked by a director to furnish an acting degree at an audition for a part as a construction worker and being kicked off a set by a security guard who said he could not be part of the cast because of his appearance.


    Options for the “native Mexican” are restricted to commercials on government programs, which make up just 5 percent of television ads, Franco said.

    In August 2013, a casting call sparked outrage. Mexico’s flagship air carrier, Aeromexico, said it was looking for actors and actresses for one of its commercials but specified that it wanted “nobody dark-skinned.”

     

    http://www.efe.com/efe/english/life/mestizo-actors-conspicuously-absent-from-commercial-ads-in-mexico/50000263-3133515

    . You need different races to be racist.
     
    And you've got 'em, dear boy.

    The official site for population numbers, INEGI, gives the number of “indigenous language speakers” as 7 million, out of 119 million.
     
    Too low. There are Amerinds who don't speak Amerind languages...

    No numbers given for whites.
     
    Estimates that I've seen are around 10% of the population.

    OTOH, the President is clearly mestizo,
     
    Dunno. He looks White to me


    http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/files/2015/06/Enrique-Pena-Nieto.jpg

    I understand modern Mexican anthropologists use two very useful terms for “mestizo” : “euromestizo”
    ( mestizo with predominant European ancestry) and “indomestizo” (the converse).

    As for Nieto Pena, if you’re familiar with Mediterranean Europeans, you’ll notice he has very abundant (for his age) and thick hair (a giveaway for admixture), which is very unusual in the old world, where over 3/4 of men Nieto Pena’s age would be balding and probably more grey. That’s Amerindian hair, if you ask me, while the rest of his features are pretty European.
    I don’t know where the cut-off lies in Mexico for the white or whitish elites to be considered fully white ( only 10 or 5 % Amerindian? ), so Nieto Pena could be considered socially white in Mexico but a bit Mestizo anywhere else. In anthropological terms, he’s most likely “euromestizo”.

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