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Should Schools Reopen if Kids Really Aren't Very Infectious?
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How infectious are children? This is an important question, since it bears on whether or not to reopen schools, that we haven’t seen much research upon. With many contagious illnesses, school have long been notorious sites of spread. But so far schools have not been widely implicated as super-spreader sites with this new virus, which in turns ties back to the curious question of why so many things about this virus seem to correlate strongly with age.

Here’s an interesting anecdatum from The Guardian:

Boy with Covid-19 did not transmit disease to more than 170 contacts
Case of symptomatic nine-year-old suggests children may be less likely to pass on virus

Ian Sample Science editor, @iansample, Tue 21 Apr 2020 04.00 EDT

A nine-year-old boy who contracted Covid-19 in Eastern France did not pass the virus on despite coming into contact with more than 170 people, according to research that suggests children may not be major spreaders of the virus.

The boy was among a cluster of cases linked to Steve Walsh, the Hove-based businessman who became the first Briton to test positive for coronavirus after attending a sales conference in Singapore in January.

Walsh unwittingly passed the infection on when he joined 10 British adults and a family of five at a chalet in the ski resort of Contamines-Montjoie in the Haute-Savoie region after flying in from London.

Most of the chalet guests contracted the virus, but an investigation by Public Health France found that the nine-year-old did not pass it on to either of his siblings nor anyone else, despite coming into contact with 172 people, all of whom were quarantined as a precaution, and having lessons at three separate ski schools.

A report on the investigation published in Clinical Infectious Diseases describes how tests revealed the boy to be infected with Sars-Cov-2, the virus that causes Covid-19, and also influenza and a common cold virus. While both of his siblings caught the latter infections, neither picked up the coronavirus.

“One child, co-infected with other respiratory viruses, attended three schools while symptomatic, but did not transmit the virus, suggesting potential different transmission dynamics in children,” Kostas Danis, an epidemiologist at Public Health France told the French news agency AFP.

The boy had only mild symptoms and when tested was found to have levels of virus that were barely detectable. The low level of infection is thought to explain why he did not infect other people.

The researchers believe that since children typically have only mild symptoms, they may transmit the virus far less than infected adults. “Children might not be an important source of transmissions of this novel virus,” they write.

Why children generally escape the worst of the virus is not well understood, but many scientists suspect that their immune response is somehow able to clear the infections more rapidly than older adults, who tend to be hit much harder by the illness.

The report comes after researchers at UCL concluded this month that school closures would likely have only a small effect on the spread of the virus, and that this should be weighed up against the profound social and economic costs.

We need all the contact reports in the world made available to researchers. Google Translate appears to be amazingly good at translating many languages these days, so the idea of Western researchers reading through, say, Korean language accounts looking for patterns and, just as importantly, looking for Dogs That Do Not Bark, is more feasible than it would have been not many years ago.

 
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  1. I read that a Chinese baby hospitalized because both parents were ill exhaled large quantities of virus throughout her stay.

    And there was video of three small dead children being stuffed into one body bag.

    • Replies: @vinny
    @Elli

    Vincent Adultman got the 'rona?!

  2. My impression is that the only people anxious for school to start again are (some) house-bound parents.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Alec


    My impression is that the only people anxious for school to start again are (some) house-bound parents.
     
    Well there's also the issue of childcare. In our two income world, kids too young to stay home alone (a number that sadly in the US is probably up above 20) hove to go somewhere. Whether its schools or daycare or daycamp or something else, those need to open so that parents can go back to work.
    , @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    @Alec

    Disagree vehemently, and can tell from your comment you don’t have children. Keeping kindergarteners from peer interaction is actually heart breaking. I seldom appeal to emotion, but America’s kids have been “grounded”. It’s authenticity tragic

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @leterip
    @Alec

    Roughly 10% of homes are so bad that the children get no nurture and no decent nutrition. Daycares, preschools, and schools are their only respite. The abuse of children is certainly higher now as well.

    , @Old and Grumpy
    @Alec

    I think it the public education employees are more interested to get their indoctrination centers back up and running? Can you imagine what would happen if for example 5% of current housebound public educated kids become full time home-schooled? Gosh golly you might see school budget cuts and closures. Worse yet what if the few bright kids leave the public school system, and don't become liberal sheeple? No wonder Harvard law is starting war against homeschooling?

    Replies: @education realist

  3. anon[375] • Disclaimer says:

    In the US this decision does not have to be made for at least a month. Probably k – 12 will be some sort of hybrid thing. The taxpayers will be funding a lot of half-baked tech “solutions” just for a start.

    A bigger question looms over many, many small colleges and uni’s. If they do not open this fall, they may close permanently, but if they open this fall and become hotspots they may wind up closing anyway. Liberal arts + b-school places with 1500 – 3000 students are in a tight spot because they rely heavily on Pell grants and federal student loans, typically have no real endowment to backstop.

    The CARES act is supposed to tide such institutions over in a way similar to the PPP for small business. But that’s temporary, it is an open question whether face-to-face instruction is really worth the premium that college students have been paying with borrowed money. A permanent decline in college headcounts is in the demographic future, but this event may trigger an early exodus out of colleges.

    Which reminds me, Harvard has an endowment fund of $40,000,000,000 which produces a nice return annually. Harvard also received monies from the CARE, which supposedly went to students. A little auditing might be in order.

    Ask Shake Shack.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-claw-back-harvard-coronavirus-001042322.html

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @anon

    You have a good point about the universities, #375. There's a big effect on the rest of the economy in towns/cities with big schools. Near us, the university has easily 1,000 units of private housing built very recently near it on one end of the campus. The kids will move home, and those place will be SOL, as they will be out those near $1,000 PER PERSON rents in some of those apartments. The economic fall-out will be major.

    In the long run though, this could be a really good thing. Same with the lower schools.

  4. Anonymous[160] • Disclaimer says:

    The schools never should’ve been closed.

    Not only is there zero evidence that children are in harm’s way there’s also scant evidence of children as asymptomatic spreaders. Check any article that tries to infer such and you’ll find weasle words.

    Schools were closed long after the virus arrived. The stone cold fact is there never was a wave of school teachers infected in what should’ve been a nightmare classroom contagion environment.

    INFECTED SCHOOL TEACHERS SHOULD’VE BEEN FLOODING ICUs AROUND THE WORLD SPRING 2020 BUT IT DIDN’T HAPPEN.

    Mass school closings is just one of so many idiotic covid policies based on PROJECT FEAR media lies.

    • Disagree: Kronos
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Anonymous


    The schools never should’ve been closed.
     
    Do schools waste most of the food? It'd been said dairy farms dumped a lot of milk because schools closed down. But even if kids are at home, they still gotta drink milk. So, why was so much milk dumped on farms?

    Does that mean schools really purchase lots of stuff and just secretly dump them because kids don't consume most of them?

    Replies: @Alice, @ScarletNumber

    , @Hail
    @Anonymous


    The schools never should’ve been closed.
     
    We have a a winner!

    Denmark for its part has admitted its knee-jerk decision to close schools was wrong and has reopened.
    , @Anonymousse
    @Anonymous

    True, but if you apply Sailer’s corona butterknife... maybe schools should still be closed. Consider that all the studies and empirical evidence showing that corona is about as dangerous as the flu may all turn out to be completely wrong for a whole bunch of unrelated unspecifiable reasons... and the evidence that kids aren’t in danger and may not even carry the virus could also turn out to be wrong. Corona may turn out to cause asymptomatic children to spontaneously combust ten years down the line, I mean who can say? It hasn’t been DISproven, right?

    Maybe we should just close them down for a short time, maybe just a couple decades or so, until all the peer reviewed long term data is in. You know, just to be SURE. It’s a small matter when you’re talking about the possibility that people on the bitter end of the actuarial tables may die of corona instead of all the other things they’d die of around the same time.

    , @Kronos
    @Anonymous


    Mass school closings is just one of so many idiotic covid policies based on PROJECT FEAR media lies.
     
    It was a gamble that thankfully isn’t (so far) paying off. Back when schools physically closed there was even less information then we have now. By the time perfect information is presented its often too late to make the correct decision. Hindsight might be 20/20 but the unknown future is myopic.

    Also, if this virus had killed up to 0.05% of students in a given state (mainly type 1 diabetes with compromised immune systems and such) that may still lead to potential lawsuits and bad press.

    https://youtu.be/0_0U4bhe6ag

    Keep in mind this is still a relatively unknown virus that I still strongly believe was made in a lab.

  5. “Anecdatum” is a superb coinage. Is that one yours, Steve?

    Language Nazi approves: you are hereby awarded four Rommels.

    However, “seen much research upon” is a questionable usage of “upon” (better is the plainer “on”), and may be flat out wrong depending who you ask. (Note that the casual usage just now, though flippant, is justified by context: “depending upon whom you ask” would be stiff and trip up the flow.)

    Language Nazi scowls: you are hereby given three Goebbels.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    I would expect Language Nazi would reward innovative language with Goebbels rather than Rommels. Rommel, after all, being nothing more than a man of high courage and a War tactics genius. Goebbels, on the other hand, being a man of persuasion.

  6. Contamines-Montjoie seems to exist, to my surprise.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Cortes


    Contamines-Montjoie seems to exist, to my surprise.

     

    From Wikipedia:

    The original name of the village, Les Contamines, is from the word contamines, which in the ancient local dialect meant ploughable land on the estate of the squire.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Contamines-Montjoie

     

    Well, this is good news. In standard French, it would mean something like "infected hill of pleasure".

    Mons veneris infectis?

  7. Steve said

    “the curious question of why so many things about this virus seem to correlate strongly with age”

    Something to do with the condition of the immune system in the upper respiratory tract?

  8. Anonymous[160] • Disclaimer says:

    Steve Bannon warroom podcast has good covid info.

    But Bannon is totally obsessed with prosecuting biowarfare war crimes against CCP/China.

    So the truth is bent in order to fit this narrative.

    Result is Bannon complains the people aren’t focusing enough on the covid death toll rising fast toward 60k and beyond. Every toe tag is blood on China’s hands! Oh my!

    But obviously…

    THE PEOPLE STOPPED CARING BECAUSE THE DEATH TOLL NUMBERS ARE RELENTLESSY FUDGED.

    Poor Steve Bannon is stuck hyping the bogus body count… not a good look for a supposed maverick reformer.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Anonymous

    OK, now go listen to some leftist podcasts and report back to us in a week.

  9. @anon
    In the US this decision does not have to be made for at least a month. Probably k - 12 will be some sort of hybrid thing. The taxpayers will be funding a lot of half-baked tech "solutions" just for a start.

    A bigger question looms over many, many small colleges and uni's. If they do not open this fall, they may close permanently, but if they open this fall and become hotspots they may wind up closing anyway. Liberal arts + b-school places with 1500 - 3000 students are in a tight spot because they rely heavily on Pell grants and federal student loans, typically have no real endowment to backstop.

    The CARES act is supposed to tide such institutions over in a way similar to the PPP for small business. But that's temporary, it is an open question whether face-to-face instruction is really worth the premium that college students have been paying with borrowed money. A permanent decline in college headcounts is in the demographic future, but this event may trigger an early exodus out of colleges.

    Which reminds me, Harvard has an endowment fund of $40,000,000,000 which produces a nice return annually. Harvard also received monies from the CARE, which supposedly went to students. A little auditing might be in order.

    Ask Shake Shack.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-claw-back-harvard-coronavirus-001042322.html

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    You have a good point about the universities, #375. There’s a big effect on the rest of the economy in towns/cities with big schools. Near us, the university has easily 1,000 units of private housing built very recently near it on one end of the campus. The kids will move home, and those place will be SOL, as they will be out those near $1,000 PER PERSON rents in some of those apartments. The economic fall-out will be major.

    In the long run though, this could be a really good thing. Same with the lower schools.

  10. Should the Schools be Reopened Because Kids Aren’t Very Infectious?

    Principals and headmasters, usually at some graduation ceremony or the like, often extol a student’s or students’ infectious enthusiasm. Going forward upon reopening, such enthusiasm must be eliminated entirely—with corporal punishment and/or expulsion of the guilty vectors.

  11. Maybe I’m too cynical even for the folks here, but I got a feeling the Governors, along with the reasons of covering their asses and one-upping other Governors, figure the teachers would LUV a 2 month paid vacation. Teachers can pay them back at the voting booth.

    If the shutdowns go on through the fall though, things may really change drastically in this country – all for the best in the long run. Maybe small private schools, run with no interference from government, along with millions of homeschool groups, will be formed. A guy can dream, can’t he?

  12. Colleges should open immediately. Schools are a little more questionable because kids go home to their parents every day. College kids mostly just interact with each other and their professors. Vulnerable professors can do their classes remotely.

  13. Yeah, count me on the “we shouldn’t have closed the schools” team. And we should reopen them as soon as possible, with some safeguards. I don’t think seating kids 6 feet apart makes sense, but there are plenty of steps that could be taken to minimize risk.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @education realist


    ...but there are plenty of steps that could be taken to minimize risk.
     
    Yeah, I got some. Don't serve them that junk food every lunch time, and give them more than 20 minutes of recess.

    Replies: @education realist

    , @Alice
    @education realist

    Hi Ed Realist! I broke out of house arrest with dh and kids for Easter. 3 hours away in VA, outdoor Latin mass with sacraments! Now I'm eyeing Pigeon Forge for a long May vacation because the R-led houses of my state are led by squishes who deserve to lose and won't overrule our tyrant governor. Waiting to see if they allow HOA community pools to open. if no, we're leaving for summer.

    these bastards closed the freaking libraries and have kept them closed.

    Kids should go to school NOW, and I say that as a homeschooling parent who thinks public schools are wretched at their supposed mission.

    Kids need routine. They need their friends!! They need the chance to cooperate and take turns and tell stupid jokes. The kids who receive services at school are in desperate shape. none of the e-learning they are doing is anything like what a competent homeschooler would do, but even if schools are offering no learning benefits, the kids deserve to not be confined to house arrest. They need band and art and sports, too.

    Reasonable precautions against flu in terms of hygiene would be fantastic. Kids should have recess! outside! and gym! outside! and schools should use ozone machines again for sanitation! There are NO health risks for healthy kids. and obvious none for all but thr most elderly of teachers, who can be paid to stay home a lot more cheaply than all of us can be.

    , @ScarletNumber
    @education realist

    As you well know, this is a union issue. Teachers are going to cry "unsafe working environment" as long as they are collecting their full salaries "working" from home. If teachers were being laid off due to the closures, then the unions would fight for them to reopen.

    Replies: @David

  14. @education realist
    Yeah, count me on the "we shouldn't have closed the schools" team. And we should reopen them as soon as possible, with some safeguards. I don't think seating kids 6 feet apart makes sense, but there are plenty of steps that could be taken to minimize risk.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Alice, @ScarletNumber

    …but there are plenty of steps that could be taken to minimize risk.

    Yeah, I got some. Don’t serve them that junk food every lunch time, and give them more than 20 minutes of recess.

    • Replies: @education realist
    @Achmed E. Newman

    We don't serve them that. They buy it. And they get more than 20 minutes of recess. They get lunch. So close to an hour of a 6 hour day. Plus usually a brunch.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  15. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    The schools never should've been closed.

    Not only is there zero evidence that children are in harm's way there's also scant evidence of children as asymptomatic spreaders. Check any article that tries to infer such and you'll find weasle words.

    Schools were closed long after the virus arrived. The stone cold fact is there never was a wave of school teachers infected in what should've been a nightmare classroom contagion environment.

    INFECTED SCHOOL TEACHERS SHOULD'VE BEEN FLOODING ICUs AROUND THE WORLD SPRING 2020 BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

    Mass school closings is just one of so many idiotic covid policies based on PROJECT FEAR media lies.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Hail, @Anonymousse, @Kronos

    The schools never should’ve been closed.

    Do schools waste most of the food? It’d been said dairy farms dumped a lot of milk because schools closed down. But even if kids are at home, they still gotta drink milk. So, why was so much milk dumped on farms?

    Does that mean schools really purchase lots of stuff and just secretly dump them because kids don’t consume most of them?

    • Replies: @Alice
    @Anonymous

    where I live, the grocery stores are out of milk. Literally NONE on the shelves some days, and I have to go to three stores to find any gallons at all. some days no whole milk. some days no 2%.

    it is a misallocation problem.

    The dairy world is perhaps the farthest thing in the US from a free market, but leaving aside the ins and outs of the price fixing, the cartels, the regional boundaries, the short answer is the dairies that sell to the bigger firms that package /contract to ship the little cartons for schools (and make the chocolate milk!) aren't the dairies that sell to the bigger firms that package/ship for the plastic gallon market.

    of course there's literally tons of waste on the school markets. But its also this isn't like a market where you go and buy whatever. the contracts for who sells how much milk to whom for how much are extraordinarily complicated.

    Replies: @education realist, @LondonBob

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Anonymous

    I would say children drink more milk at school than at home.

  16. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    "Anecdatum" is a superb coinage. Is that one yours, Steve?

    Language Nazi approves: you are hereby awarded four Rommels.

    However, "seen much research upon" is a questionable usage of "upon" (better is the plainer "on"), and may be flat out wrong depending who you ask. (Note that the casual usage just now, though flippant, is justified by context: "depending upon whom you ask" would be stiff and trip up the flow.)

    Language Nazi scowls: you are hereby given three Goebbels.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton

    I would expect Language Nazi would reward innovative language with Goebbels rather than Rommels. Rommel, after all, being nothing more than a man of high courage and a War tactics genius. Goebbels, on the other hand, being a man of persuasion.

  17. @education realist
    Yeah, count me on the "we shouldn't have closed the schools" team. And we should reopen them as soon as possible, with some safeguards. I don't think seating kids 6 feet apart makes sense, but there are plenty of steps that could be taken to minimize risk.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Alice, @ScarletNumber

    Hi Ed Realist! I broke out of house arrest with dh and kids for Easter. 3 hours away in VA, outdoor Latin mass with sacraments! Now I’m eyeing Pigeon Forge for a long May vacation because the R-led houses of my state are led by squishes who deserve to lose and won’t overrule our tyrant governor. Waiting to see if they allow HOA community pools to open. if no, we’re leaving for summer.

    these bastards closed the freaking libraries and have kept them closed.

    Kids should go to school NOW, and I say that as a homeschooling parent who thinks public schools are wretched at their supposed mission.

    Kids need routine. They need their friends!! They need the chance to cooperate and take turns and tell stupid jokes. The kids who receive services at school are in desperate shape. none of the e-learning they are doing is anything like what a competent homeschooler would do, but even if schools are offering no learning benefits, the kids deserve to not be confined to house arrest. They need band and art and sports, too.

    Reasonable precautions against flu in terms of hygiene would be fantastic. Kids should have recess! outside! and gym! outside! and schools should use ozone machines again for sanitation! There are NO health risks for healthy kids. and obvious none for all but thr most elderly of teachers, who can be paid to stay home a lot more cheaply than all of us can be.

    • Agree: education realist
  18. Should Schools Reopen if Kids Really Aren’t Very Infectious?

    Yeah, the teachers’ unions are really gonna go for that… when their members are getting paid full salary to stay home.

  19. @Anonymous
    @Anonymous


    The schools never should’ve been closed.
     
    Do schools waste most of the food? It'd been said dairy farms dumped a lot of milk because schools closed down. But even if kids are at home, they still gotta drink milk. So, why was so much milk dumped on farms?

    Does that mean schools really purchase lots of stuff and just secretly dump them because kids don't consume most of them?

    Replies: @Alice, @ScarletNumber

    where I live, the grocery stores are out of milk. Literally NONE on the shelves some days, and I have to go to three stores to find any gallons at all. some days no whole milk. some days no 2%.

    it is a misallocation problem.

    The dairy world is perhaps the farthest thing in the US from a free market, but leaving aside the ins and outs of the price fixing, the cartels, the regional boundaries, the short answer is the dairies that sell to the bigger firms that package /contract to ship the little cartons for schools (and make the chocolate milk!) aren’t the dairies that sell to the bigger firms that package/ship for the plastic gallon market.

    of course there’s literally tons of waste on the school markets. But its also this isn’t like a market where you go and buy whatever. the contracts for who sells how much milk to whom for how much are extraordinarily complicated.

    • Replies: @education realist
    @Alice

    It's worth mentioning, as long as we're talking about schools, that schools turned around and began doing their best to educate in an entirely different way, and they did it with no notice. And despite horror stories, the bulk of schools are managing to educate (some doing too much, some doing too little, and some like baby bear doing it just right.)

    Meanwhile, it apparently defeats farmers and processors to figure out how to get milk to people who need it.

    I don't fucking want to hear a word about how wretched public schools are anymore.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @Alice, @Old and Grumpy, @Old and Grumpy, @Kronos

    , @LondonBob
    @Alice

    Consumption patterns have dramatically changed, loo paper not needed at workplaces but at homes instead, food needs to be redirected to homes not restaurants. Takes a little time to adjust supply chains. My corner shop always has ample eggs, strangely the supermarket struggles to have any.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  20. Goebbels was a natural born mediocrity: a failed playwright and a failed novelist, also a failed intellectual, whose “doctoral” dissertation was on a fellow mediocrity from early German Romanticism, of little reputation, whom nobody cared about. In other words, he squeaked past. Had he written a dissertation on a German writer of substance, anything he said would have been weighed by more serious thinkers, and his head would have been ripped off. So, an intellectual coward as well. As a “man of persuasion,” he either a) only persuaded people who really already wanted to be persuaded, or b) had a captive audience who were ‘persuaded’ by the rifles in their backs. Not impressive either way.

    Rommel was a man of skill and dexterity who understood complex rules-based systems, but who also had the insight and ability to transcend them when necessary. L’audace, toujours l’audace!

    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    Oops, this was intended as a response to Neil Templeton above, it's not some random babbling about Goebbels, sorry.

    , @Neil Templeton
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    Raise a draft, to Rommel.

    , @ScarletNumber
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    The day after Hitler killed himself Dr. and Mrs. Goebbels killed themselves and their six children. Is this common knowledge? I just learned this today.

    Replies: @anon, @Ancient Briton

  21. and more than anecdata,a preprint:

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.18.20071134v1

    Abstract
    Background: The Oise department in France has been heavily affected by COVID-19 in early 2020. Methods: Between 30 March and 4 April 2020, we conducted a retrospective closed cohort study among pupils, their parents and siblings, as well as teachers and non-teaching staff of a high-school located in Oise. Participants completed a questionnaire that covered history of fever and/or respiratory symptoms since 13 January 2020 and had blood tested for the presence of anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. The infection attack rate (IAR) was defined as the proportion of participants with confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection based on antibody detection. Blood samples from two blood donor centres collected between 23 and 27 March 2020 in the Oise department were also tested for presence of anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. Findings: Of the 661 participants (median age: 37 years), 171 participants had anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. The overall IAR was 25.9% (95% confidence interval (CI) = 22.6-29.4), and the infection fatality rate was 0% (one-sided 97.5% CI = 0-2.1). Nine of the ten participants hospitalised since mid-January were in the infected group, giving a hospitalisation rate of 5.3% (95% CI = 2.4-9.8). Anosmia and ageusia had high positive predictive values for SARS-CoV-2 infection (84.7% and 88.1%, respectively). Smokers had a lower IAR compared to non-smokers (7.2% versus 28.0%, P <0.001). The proportion of infected individuals who had no symptoms during the study period was 17.0% (95% CI = 11.2-23.4). The proportion of donors with anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in two nearby blood banks of the Oise department was 3.0% (95% CI = 1.1-6.4). Interpretation: The relatively low IAR observed in an area where SARS-CoV-2 actively circulated weeks before confinement measures indicates that establishing herd immunity will take time, and that lifting these measures in France will be long and complex.

  22. Should Schools Reopen if Kids Really Aren’t Very Infectious?

    How infectious kids are is a fine question.
    But given my frustration with the shutdown to me the title reads reads like a “Conjunction Effect” example (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy ) 🙂

    So:
    Should we reopen the schools if kids aren’t very infectious? yes
    Should we reopen the schools if Putin blackmailed Bernie into dropping out of the race with a telephoto lens? yes
    Should we reopen the schools if one equals zero?” yes

    We should reopen them in a boat
    We should reopen them with a goat
    … in the rain
    … on a train
    … in a tree
    … in a box
    … with a fox
    … in a house [though i guess that’s one place they’re already open]
    … with a mouse
    … here and there
    We should reopen anywhere!

    • Agree: Alice
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @vhrm

    Oh, I missed the one before. Thank you for the Dr. Suess, Vhrm!

    When we reopen, I want some green eggs and ham, courtesy of Uncle Sam I am.

  23. @Alec
    My impression is that the only people anxious for school to start again are (some) house-bound parents.

    Replies: @vhrm, @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang, @leterip, @Old and Grumpy

    My impression is that the only people anxious for school to start again are (some) house-bound parents.

    Well there’s also the issue of childcare. In our two income world, kids too young to stay home alone (a number that sadly in the US is probably up above 20) hove to go somewhere. Whether its schools or daycare or daycamp or something else, those need to open so that parents can go back to work.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  24. @Alec
    My impression is that the only people anxious for school to start again are (some) house-bound parents.

    Replies: @vhrm, @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang, @leterip, @Old and Grumpy

    Disagree vehemently, and can tell from your comment you don’t have children. Keeping kindergarteners from peer interaction is actually heart breaking. I seldom appeal to emotion, but America’s kids have been “grounded”. It’s authenticity tragic

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang

    It sounds like you are agreeing with Alec.

  25. @Achmed E. Newman
    @education realist


    ...but there are plenty of steps that could be taken to minimize risk.
     
    Yeah, I got some. Don't serve them that junk food every lunch time, and give them more than 20 minutes of recess.

    Replies: @education realist

    We don’t serve them that. They buy it. And they get more than 20 minutes of recess. They get lunch. So close to an hour of a 6 hour day. Plus usually a brunch.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @education realist

    Are you at a private school? As far as the lunches, no the kids don't buy it. The taxpayers buy it, and half is wasted because they don't have but 20 minutes to eat. The recess is 20 minutes, and there's no brunch (and neither should there be).

    I've already made many a comment about how we are using this time to get some real learning done, fractions, geography (with estimation and interpolation), and geometry (ruler, protractor, and compass). This is for a 2nd-grader.

    At his good school (good in the iSteve sense, as in good kids with good parents, in general), they waste a big part of the day doing pre-school-level arts & crafts that are supposedly part of the learning process. Oh, and we have been taking 1 1/2 to 2 hour recesses with time for the 1-2 hour work on the silly take-home school stuff, plus Raz kids(?) reading and a some language instruction from an on-line deal too.

    We could knock out elementary school in 2 years.

    Simply wretched...

    Replies: @education realist

  26. @Cortes
    Contamines-Montjoie seems to exist, to my surprise.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Contamines-Montjoie seems to exist, to my surprise.

    From Wikipedia:

    The original name of the village, Les Contamines, is from the word contamines, which in the ancient local dialect meant ploughable land on the estate of the squire.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Contamines-Montjoie

    Well, this is good news. In standard French, it would mean something like “infected hill of pleasure”.

    Mons veneris infectis?

  27. @Alice
    @Anonymous

    where I live, the grocery stores are out of milk. Literally NONE on the shelves some days, and I have to go to three stores to find any gallons at all. some days no whole milk. some days no 2%.

    it is a misallocation problem.

    The dairy world is perhaps the farthest thing in the US from a free market, but leaving aside the ins and outs of the price fixing, the cartels, the regional boundaries, the short answer is the dairies that sell to the bigger firms that package /contract to ship the little cartons for schools (and make the chocolate milk!) aren't the dairies that sell to the bigger firms that package/ship for the plastic gallon market.

    of course there's literally tons of waste on the school markets. But its also this isn't like a market where you go and buy whatever. the contracts for who sells how much milk to whom for how much are extraordinarily complicated.

    Replies: @education realist, @LondonBob

    It’s worth mentioning, as long as we’re talking about schools, that schools turned around and began doing their best to educate in an entirely different way, and they did it with no notice. And despite horror stories, the bulk of schools are managing to educate (some doing too much, some doing too little, and some like baby bear doing it just right.)

    Meanwhile, it apparently defeats farmers and processors to figure out how to get milk to people who need it.

    I don’t fucking want to hear a word about how wretched public schools are anymore.

    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    @education realist

    Lol schools adopted a policy of effectively dumping the rest of the school year down the drain but still cashing the full check. At least fairies aren’t demanding they still get paid.

    You are a glorified babysitter who is supposed to roughly certify with grades if a student is ready for the next level of babysitting. You haven’t done either for damn near six week.

    You are emblematic of the entire aging alt right. Blame all your fuck ups on blacks and then demand full protection for your guild.

    Replies: @Pericles

    , @Alice
    @education realist

    well as you are a realist, on wretchedness we may have to agree to disagree, but I will add two positives in your favor:

    our big district for the poor figured out in one week they could run the bus routes to deliver food to families who rely on school free lunch and breakfast, and did so.

    the gigantic district serving 160k students of rich poor urban suburban rural figured out how to deliver wireless hotspots to all the kids without internet access in under 4 weeks.

    , @Old and Grumpy
    @education realist

    https://www.lancasterfarming.com/farming/dairy/market-observations-from-a-local-dairy-farmer/article_74b5effb-1641-5713-8cf6-3da2cb3b2be4.html

    Replies: @education realist

    , @Old and Grumpy
    @education realist

    A good explanation about the monopoly plagued ag distribution system.

    https://www.lancasterfarming.com/farming/dairy/market-observations-from-a-local-dairy-farmer/article_74b5effb-1641-5713-8cf6-3da2cb3b2be4.html

    , @Kronos
    @education realist

    Have you noticed if the emergency online classes are more organized by teachers or the administration department?

  28. @Elli
    I read that a Chinese baby hospitalized because both parents were ill exhaled large quantities of virus throughout her stay.

    And there was video of three small dead children being stuffed into one body bag.

    Replies: @vinny

    Vincent Adultman got the ‘rona?!

  29. @education realist
    @Achmed E. Newman

    We don't serve them that. They buy it. And they get more than 20 minutes of recess. They get lunch. So close to an hour of a 6 hour day. Plus usually a brunch.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Are you at a private school? As far as the lunches, no the kids don’t buy it. The taxpayers buy it, and half is wasted because they don’t have but 20 minutes to eat. The recess is 20 minutes, and there’s no brunch (and neither should there be).

    I’ve already made many a comment about how we are using this time to get some real learning done, fractions, geography (with estimation and interpolation), and geometry (ruler, protractor, and compass). This is for a 2nd-grader.

    At his good school (good in the iSteve sense, as in good kids with good parents, in general), they waste a big part of the day doing pre-school-level arts & crafts that are supposedly part of the learning process. Oh, and we have been taking 1 1/2 to 2 hour recesses with time for the 1-2 hour work on the silly take-home school stuff, plus Raz kids(?) reading and a some language instruction from an on-line deal too.

    We could knock out elementary school in 2 years.

    Simply wretched…

    • Replies: @education realist
    @Achmed E. Newman

    The taxpayers don't buy lunch for everyone. Hence the term "free and reduced lunch". Now, I grant you that many school districts declare everyone poor--feel free to fix that. But by and large, they are paid for by people who can afford them and covered by the taxpayers for those who can't. And no, I don't teach at a private school. By the way, non-profit private school lunches are paid for by taxpayers, too.

    "We could knock out elementary school in 2 years."

    Sure, because your kid is emblematic of the average 7 year old. And, by the way, a lot of kids who can easily learn four or five years ahead material end up average intellects in high school. It has to do with reading and memory abilities, rather than IQ.

    I don't disagree we could do more to educate bright young kids, but like most people, you confuse acceleration with advanced material. It's not, and if I were designing a school for bright kids they wouldn't be learning calculus in fourth grade so their parents could brag about it.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  30. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    Goebbels was a natural born mediocrity: a failed playwright and a failed novelist, also a failed intellectual, whose "doctoral" dissertation was on a fellow mediocrity from early German Romanticism, of little reputation, whom nobody cared about. In other words, he squeaked past. Had he written a dissertation on a German writer of substance, anything he said would have been weighed by more serious thinkers, and his head would have been ripped off. So, an intellectual coward as well. As a "man of persuasion," he either a) only persuaded people who really already wanted to be persuaded, or b) had a captive audience who were 'persuaded' by the rifles in their backs. Not impressive either way.

    Rommel was a man of skill and dexterity who understood complex rules-based systems, but who also had the insight and ability to transcend them when necessary. L'audace, toujours l'audace!

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Neil Templeton, @ScarletNumber

    Oops, this was intended as a response to Neil Templeton above, it’s not some random babbling about Goebbels, sorry.

  31. Open the schools. Educate the children.

    Protect the nursing homes. Jeff Bezos can offer discounted meals to every American over 70 for the next 12 months.

  32. @education realist
    @Alice

    It's worth mentioning, as long as we're talking about schools, that schools turned around and began doing their best to educate in an entirely different way, and they did it with no notice. And despite horror stories, the bulk of schools are managing to educate (some doing too much, some doing too little, and some like baby bear doing it just right.)

    Meanwhile, it apparently defeats farmers and processors to figure out how to get milk to people who need it.

    I don't fucking want to hear a word about how wretched public schools are anymore.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @Alice, @Old and Grumpy, @Old and Grumpy, @Kronos

    Lol schools adopted a policy of effectively dumping the rest of the school year down the drain but still cashing the full check. At least fairies aren’t demanding they still get paid.

    You are a glorified babysitter who is supposed to roughly certify with grades if a student is ready for the next level of babysitting. You haven’t done either for damn near six week.

    You are emblematic of the entire aging alt right. Blame all your fuck ups on blacks and then demand full protection for your guild.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Sam Haysom


    You are emblematic of the entire aging alt right. Blame all your fuck ups on blacks and then demand full protection for your guild.

     

    A shekel for the good goy. Here Sam, don't spend it all in one place, heh heh.
  33. @education realist
    @Alice

    It's worth mentioning, as long as we're talking about schools, that schools turned around and began doing their best to educate in an entirely different way, and they did it with no notice. And despite horror stories, the bulk of schools are managing to educate (some doing too much, some doing too little, and some like baby bear doing it just right.)

    Meanwhile, it apparently defeats farmers and processors to figure out how to get milk to people who need it.

    I don't fucking want to hear a word about how wretched public schools are anymore.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @Alice, @Old and Grumpy, @Old and Grumpy, @Kronos

    well as you are a realist, on wretchedness we may have to agree to disagree, but I will add two positives in your favor:

    our big district for the poor figured out in one week they could run the bus routes to deliver food to families who rely on school free lunch and breakfast, and did so.

    the gigantic district serving 160k students of rich poor urban suburban rural figured out how to deliver wireless hotspots to all the kids without internet access in under 4 weeks.

  34. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    Goebbels was a natural born mediocrity: a failed playwright and a failed novelist, also a failed intellectual, whose "doctoral" dissertation was on a fellow mediocrity from early German Romanticism, of little reputation, whom nobody cared about. In other words, he squeaked past. Had he written a dissertation on a German writer of substance, anything he said would have been weighed by more serious thinkers, and his head would have been ripped off. So, an intellectual coward as well. As a "man of persuasion," he either a) only persuaded people who really already wanted to be persuaded, or b) had a captive audience who were 'persuaded' by the rifles in their backs. Not impressive either way.

    Rommel was a man of skill and dexterity who understood complex rules-based systems, but who also had the insight and ability to transcend them when necessary. L'audace, toujours l'audace!

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Neil Templeton, @ScarletNumber

    Raise a draft, to Rommel.

  35. @Alec
    My impression is that the only people anxious for school to start again are (some) house-bound parents.

    Replies: @vhrm, @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang, @leterip, @Old and Grumpy

    Roughly 10% of homes are so bad that the children get no nurture and no decent nutrition. Daycares, preschools, and schools are their only respite. The abuse of children is certainly higher now as well.

  36. @Alice
    @Anonymous

    where I live, the grocery stores are out of milk. Literally NONE on the shelves some days, and I have to go to three stores to find any gallons at all. some days no whole milk. some days no 2%.

    it is a misallocation problem.

    The dairy world is perhaps the farthest thing in the US from a free market, but leaving aside the ins and outs of the price fixing, the cartels, the regional boundaries, the short answer is the dairies that sell to the bigger firms that package /contract to ship the little cartons for schools (and make the chocolate milk!) aren't the dairies that sell to the bigger firms that package/ship for the plastic gallon market.

    of course there's literally tons of waste on the school markets. But its also this isn't like a market where you go and buy whatever. the contracts for who sells how much milk to whom for how much are extraordinarily complicated.

    Replies: @education realist, @LondonBob

    Consumption patterns have dramatically changed, loo paper not needed at workplaces but at homes instead, food needs to be redirected to homes not restaurants. Takes a little time to adjust supply chains. My corner shop always has ample eggs, strangely the supermarket struggles to have any.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @LondonBob

    Having had a "business" account at a couple of suppliers like Uline has come in handy. I ordered a case of asspaper and some packing supplies during the height of the toilet paper scare and it was here in 72 hours. I gave away half the rolls as gifts. Keeping the rest just in case.

    Uline is not a preferred supplier politically-they finance pro-cuck policies-but they have the stuff and the price is good. Their coffee is pretty good, not Porto Rico Coffee Co., Bleeker St., quality, but better than Folger's.

  37. anon[372] • Disclaimer says:

    Steve, there is no need to re-open schools. The Seattle Public Schools have found a better answer. From their latest e-mail to parents:

    Students taking high school courses will receive either an “A” or an “Incomplete” for the duration of the COVID-19 related school closure. This change applies to all high school students, including those receiving specialized services. The A/I grading option recognizes the challenges faced by all students during the extended closure and intentionally minimizes harm for students furthest away from educational justice.

    See? No schooling is necessary. Give all students an “A” without bothering with classes, and we will acheive the all-important goal of minimizing harm for “students furthest away from educational justice.”

    I think we’re going to be hearing that phrase “educational justice” a lot more from now on.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @anon

    Seattle seems to be competing with St. Paul for the lamest school district.

    , @Pericles
    @anon


    and intentionally minimizes harm for students furthest away from educational justice.

     

    Shoutout to Asian grinds, yo! Keep grinding, suckas!
  38. Schools should have never been closed but I am extremely anxious they won’t re-open them in the fall. The media certainly seems to be egging them on in that direction – the LA Times published a story last week that Cal State Fullerton would start the year on line. However, I read a comment buried on Twitter that their teacher union was not notified of this so the story might have been planted to push them in that direction and warm the public up to it. Campus Reform has a story that Boston University had to retract its announcement it might not open until January 2021. I am strongly considering having my oldest, who will be a senior next year – take the quarter off if it’s going to be on line again – the education is subpar and it’s a lot of money to waste on a crap experience.

    I don’t know what Newsom thinks he is doing. From various forums I am in, people seem ready to explode and come May 1, if not this weekend, I think many Californians will be done with obeying the restrictions. I’ll be surprised if violence doesn’t break out this weekend over the bullshit parking situations cities have set up at the beaches.

    • Replies: @Hail
    @AnonAnon


    Schools should have never been closed but I am extremely anxious they won’t re-open them in the fall
     
    Phrased another way: The cult will retain its true believers even after the prophesied Apocalypse fails to come and the sun rises as usual. The question: Will the (soon to be) large number of defectors from the cult, and the anti-cultists, have enough power to stop the madness?
    , @epebble
    @AnonAnon

    Would the large segment of the population that is dissatisfied with public education be happier if physical schools don't reopen and hence schooling becomes on-line - essentially, homeschooling with guidance? That would also make the debate over desegregation/resegregation, busing and such other historical disputes truly obsolete. What is the value of paying 200% or more for a desirable housing unit if everybody goes to school on the Zoombus? In fact, Covid can completely upend the ZIP code based sociology and allow us to reach the Friedmannian Flatworld Nirvana.

    , @RadicalCenter
    @AnonAnon

    Hey AA, we live in SoCal too, what’s up, brah. I think you’re right that in-person schooling needs to resume for these poor kids, but will not.

    Our older kids attend LAUSD. One of their teachers remarked that the Governor / Superintendent of Education “have already decided to start the new school year online, they just haven’t said it yet.”

    We’re guessing that CALIFORNIA will take an extreme position and keep physical schools (and playgrounds :( closed during the first half of the 2020-21 school year. First day of school here is Tuesday August 18, so Governor Newsom or LAUSD Superintendent Austin Beuttner will likely make the announcement in July.

    If there’s no need to be near their school until 2021, we may downsize from our current downtown LA apartment to a smaller, cheaper one nearby. The difference will be $500 to $700 per month.

    My wife & kids would go live with my family on the East Coast for the rest of 2020. I still need to go to a physical workplace some days, so I’d stay in LA and visit them periodically for a couple weeks at a time.

    The rent savings will pay for the very short move, the airfares and Uber. With money left over for a couple nice little regional road trips in the Fall and Spring. (Whichever Northeastern State is sensible enough to reopen WINERIES this Fall, there ye shall find us. We will bravely volunteer to be their first tourists in the supposed New Era 🍷 😊

    So, there is our own unusual plan if Mexifornian “authorities” extend the school closure into the new school year.

  39. @anon
    Steve, there is no need to re-open schools. The Seattle Public Schools have found a better answer. From their latest e-mail to parents:

    Students taking high school courses will receive either an “A” or an “Incomplete” for the duration of the COVID-19 related school closure. This change applies to all high school students, including those receiving specialized services. The A/I grading option recognizes the challenges faced by all students during the extended closure and intentionally minimizes harm for students furthest away from educational justice.
     
    See? No schooling is necessary. Give all students an "A" without bothering with classes, and we will acheive the all-important goal of minimizing harm for "students furthest away from educational justice."

    I think we're going to be hearing that phrase "educational justice" a lot more from now on.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Pericles

    Seattle seems to be competing with St. Paul for the lamest school district.

  40. @Anonymous
    Steve Bannon warroom podcast has good covid info.

    But Bannon is totally obsessed with prosecuting biowarfare war crimes against CCP/China.

    So the truth is bent in order to fit this narrative.

    Result is Bannon complains the people aren't focusing enough on the covid death toll rising fast toward 60k and beyond. Every toe tag is blood on China's hands! Oh my!

    But obviously...

    THE PEOPLE STOPPED CARING BECAUSE THE DEATH TOLL NUMBERS ARE RELENTLESSY FUDGED.

    Poor Steve Bannon is stuck hyping the bogus body count... not a good look for a supposed maverick reformer.

    Replies: @Pericles

    OK, now go listen to some leftist podcasts and report back to us in a week.

  41. @Sam Haysom
    @education realist

    Lol schools adopted a policy of effectively dumping the rest of the school year down the drain but still cashing the full check. At least fairies aren’t demanding they still get paid.

    You are a glorified babysitter who is supposed to roughly certify with grades if a student is ready for the next level of babysitting. You haven’t done either for damn near six week.

    You are emblematic of the entire aging alt right. Blame all your fuck ups on blacks and then demand full protection for your guild.

    Replies: @Pericles

    You are emblematic of the entire aging alt right. Blame all your fuck ups on blacks and then demand full protection for your guild.

    A shekel for the good goy. Here Sam, don’t spend it all in one place, heh heh.

  42. @anon
    Steve, there is no need to re-open schools. The Seattle Public Schools have found a better answer. From their latest e-mail to parents:

    Students taking high school courses will receive either an “A” or an “Incomplete” for the duration of the COVID-19 related school closure. This change applies to all high school students, including those receiving specialized services. The A/I grading option recognizes the challenges faced by all students during the extended closure and intentionally minimizes harm for students furthest away from educational justice.
     
    See? No schooling is necessary. Give all students an "A" without bothering with classes, and we will acheive the all-important goal of minimizing harm for "students furthest away from educational justice."

    I think we're going to be hearing that phrase "educational justice" a lot more from now on.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Pericles

    and intentionally minimizes harm for students furthest away from educational justice.

    Shoutout to Asian grinds, yo! Keep grinding, suckas!

  43. Should Schools Reopen if Kids Really Aren’t Very Infectious?

    Every day a school is closed is one day farther from the last effective dose of indoctrination. Indoctrination has a half-life of 90 days, which is the only reason they still allow Summer Vacation.

  44. @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang
    @Alec

    Disagree vehemently, and can tell from your comment you don’t have children. Keeping kindergarteners from peer interaction is actually heart breaking. I seldom appeal to emotion, but America’s kids have been “grounded”. It’s authenticity tragic

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    It sounds like you are agreeing with Alec.

  45. @education realist
    Yeah, count me on the "we shouldn't have closed the schools" team. And we should reopen them as soon as possible, with some safeguards. I don't think seating kids 6 feet apart makes sense, but there are plenty of steps that could be taken to minimize risk.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Alice, @ScarletNumber

    As you well know, this is a union issue. Teachers are going to cry “unsafe working environment” as long as they are collecting their full salaries “working” from home. If teachers were being laid off due to the closures, then the unions would fight for them to reopen.

    • Agree: Muggles
    • Replies: @David
    @ScarletNumber

    What's with the new scare quotes around working from home? A few weeks ago your effort justified increased compensation. Which is true?


    Of course we would. Why wouldn’t we? I’m working at home, and my contract says I work 180 days per year.
     

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  46. @Anonymous
    @Anonymous


    The schools never should’ve been closed.
     
    Do schools waste most of the food? It'd been said dairy farms dumped a lot of milk because schools closed down. But even if kids are at home, they still gotta drink milk. So, why was so much milk dumped on farms?

    Does that mean schools really purchase lots of stuff and just secretly dump them because kids don't consume most of them?

    Replies: @Alice, @ScarletNumber

    I would say children drink more milk at school than at home.

  47. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    Goebbels was a natural born mediocrity: a failed playwright and a failed novelist, also a failed intellectual, whose "doctoral" dissertation was on a fellow mediocrity from early German Romanticism, of little reputation, whom nobody cared about. In other words, he squeaked past. Had he written a dissertation on a German writer of substance, anything he said would have been weighed by more serious thinkers, and his head would have been ripped off. So, an intellectual coward as well. As a "man of persuasion," he either a) only persuaded people who really already wanted to be persuaded, or b) had a captive audience who were 'persuaded' by the rifles in their backs. Not impressive either way.

    Rommel was a man of skill and dexterity who understood complex rules-based systems, but who also had the insight and ability to transcend them when necessary. L'audace, toujours l'audace!

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Neil Templeton, @ScarletNumber

    The day after Hitler killed himself Dr. and Mrs. Goebbels killed themselves and their six children. Is this common knowledge? I just learned this today.

    • Replies: @anon
    @ScarletNumber

    The day after Hitler killed himself Dr. and Mrs. Goebbels killed themselves and their six children.

    In that order, too. You can see how very dangerous Nazis were.

    Is this common knowledge? I just learned this today.

    I can't wait to see what you will learn tomorrow!

    , @Ancient Briton
    @ScarletNumber

    Breaking News from 1945!

  48. “How infectious are children? This is an important question, since it bears on whether or not to reopen schools, that we haven’t seen much research upon.”

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30236-X/fulltext

    The most important finding to come from the present analysis is the clear evidence that children are susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 infection, but frequently do not have notable disease, raising the possibility that children could be facilitators of viral transmission. If children are important in viral transmission and amplification, social and public health policies (eg, avoiding interaction with elderly people) could be established to slow transmission and protect vulnerable populations. There is an urgent need to for further investigation of the role children have in the chain of transmission.

    https://hms.harvard.edu/news/covid-19-children

    “What seems to be consistent so far, in multiple settings in multiple countries, including the U.S., is that the majority of COVID-19 infections in individuals under the age of 19 tend to be mild,” she explained. “Infection in pediatric patients of all ages tends to be associated with significantly lower rates of hospitalization and significantly lower rates of critical and severe illness.” Most children haven’t met criteria for testing. Since testing for the virus has been limited to this point, Moffitt believes that a majority of infections in children and teens are going undiagnosed. “Right now, testing is being prioritized for patients who meet criteria for high risk of more severe infection,” she said. “Since the large majority of pediatric patients have relatively mild infection and symptoms, most of them will not meet criteria for testing.”

  49. Most (more than 50%) K-12 schools in the US are a waste of the “student’s” time and the taxpayers money. Most kids in American schools learn nothing f worthy note after 6th grade, and much earlier for some. Most (way over 50%) parents/guarians desperately want/need to have someone else be more-or-less responsible for tending (even feeding) their offspring, and care little if the three Rs are involved, as long as the kid is gone 6 or 7 hours per day.

    Some schools are doing valuable education work, with bright, interested students. Not many, but sme. Some students are going to learn their academic subjects no matter how bad the schools are, or if they are open at all. Some parents have learned that they can help their children learn, and love to do the job. Not to many, but sme.

    So after all this Coronavirus® bs hoax/scam/social distancing BS is revealed as the BS that it is, will we be willing to continue to spend all this money on an “education industry” that is clearly revealed to be a horrible, expensive waste of time? It will be interesting to see. If I were a minor administrator or gen ed teacher in an urban district, I would be very concerned. THings are not going to be like they used to be just a few short weeks ago. We are going to see that a lot of parental eyes have been opened, and re-enrollment next term (whenever that will be) is going to be a lot lower. Lower headcounts, lower funding. Lower funding means a lot of districts g bankrupt right now. We can hope, can’t we??

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  50. Anon[543] • Disclaimer says:

    Students are irrelevant in this equation. It’s teachers that are important. Children either aren’t getting Covid-19 or only get mild cases. But their teachers have the potential to get sicker or even die.

    If all your teachers are sick=no school.

    All our teachers need to get Covid-19 over the summer and recover from it completely before school starts, or school isn’t going to be able to start in fall, period. If they try to do it, teachers will be out sick at the rate medical workers will be in a hospital that’s getting crushed because they’ll be catching it right and left from their students.

    This is a cold-blooded assessment of the hurdle school openings have to clear.

    • Disagree: Hail
  51. Most (more than 50%) K-12 schools in the US are a waste of the “student’s” time and the taxpayers money. Most kids in American schools learn nothing f worthy note after 6th grade, and much earlier for some. Most (way over 50%) parents/guarians desperately want/need to have someone else be more-or-less responsible for tending (even feeding) their offspring, and care little if the three Rs are involved, as long as the kid is gone 6 or 7 hours per day.

    Some schools are doing valuable education work, with bright, interested students. Not many, but sme. Some students are going to learn their academic subjects no matter how bad the schools are, or if they are open at all. Some parents have learned that they can help their children learn, and love to do the job. Not to many, but sme.

    So after all this Coronavirus® bs hoax/scam/social distancing BS is revealed as the BS that it is, will we be willing to continue to spend all this money on an “education industry” that is clearly revealed to be a horrible, expensive waste of time? It will be interesting to see. If I were a minor administrator or gen ed teacher in an urban district, I would be very concerned. Things are not going to be like they used to be just a few short weeks ago. We are going to see that a lot of parental eyes have been opened, and re-enrollment next term (whenever that will be) is going to be a lot lower. Lower headcounts, lower funding. Lower funding means a lot of districts go bankrupt right now. We can hope, can’t we??

    Last is we do not need expensive, wasteful school systems as a stage for children to interact socially. Kids have been talking, playing, liking, hating, learning from each other for many thousands of years before formal schools came around.

  52. @Alec
    My impression is that the only people anxious for school to start again are (some) house-bound parents.

    Replies: @vhrm, @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang, @leterip, @Old and Grumpy

    I think it the public education employees are more interested to get their indoctrination centers back up and running? Can you imagine what would happen if for example 5% of current housebound public educated kids become full time home-schooled? Gosh golly you might see school budget cuts and closures. Worse yet what if the few bright kids leave the public school system, and don’t become liberal sheeple? No wonder Harvard law is starting war against homeschooling?

    • Replies: @education realist
    @Old and Grumpy

    Ha ha ha very ha ha.

    For one thing, if 5% of the current house bound public educated kids become full time home schooled, it would barely make a dent in school budgets and no one in public school would give a damn. (we care about charters and vouchers, but home schooling parents are of no interest).

    For another, we don't indoctrinate kids. If we can't teach kids how to read and write beyond their ability, or memorize history, why the hell are you so certain we can indoctrinate them?

    No, kids pick up their politics elsewhere. Not from school.

    Replies: @Lucius Somesuch, @Achmed E. Newman

  53. Personally I want a tax rebate for the amount of school that was out of session. I know …boomer. But seriously school is also about the adults working in the system. You have the bus drivers, janitorial staff, cafeteria workers, nurses , and the teachers. I have no doubt the superintendents and school shrinks will be working from golf courses… I mean homes. So despite the kids not spreading the plague, you can’t rule out the staff. Also here in PA, the teachers are being paid full salary and belong to powerful unions who bailed out Wolf Furniture for our current governor. Why would teachers want go back to work?

    Side note: You will all be happy to know Wolf Furniture’s cabinet division was considered essential due to shavings for animal bedding.

  54. @education realist
    @Alice

    It's worth mentioning, as long as we're talking about schools, that schools turned around and began doing their best to educate in an entirely different way, and they did it with no notice. And despite horror stories, the bulk of schools are managing to educate (some doing too much, some doing too little, and some like baby bear doing it just right.)

    Meanwhile, it apparently defeats farmers and processors to figure out how to get milk to people who need it.

    I don't fucking want to hear a word about how wretched public schools are anymore.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @Alice, @Old and Grumpy, @Old and Grumpy, @Kronos

    • Replies: @education realist
    @Old and Grumpy

    I"m well aware of why it's happening. I'm saying that's not an excuse, and if schools just shrugged and actually closed down for three months, we'd get more shit than these folks are.

  55. @education realist
    @Alice

    It's worth mentioning, as long as we're talking about schools, that schools turned around and began doing their best to educate in an entirely different way, and they did it with no notice. And despite horror stories, the bulk of schools are managing to educate (some doing too much, some doing too little, and some like baby bear doing it just right.)

    Meanwhile, it apparently defeats farmers and processors to figure out how to get milk to people who need it.

    I don't fucking want to hear a word about how wretched public schools are anymore.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @Alice, @Old and Grumpy, @Old and Grumpy, @Kronos

  56. @ScarletNumber
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    The day after Hitler killed himself Dr. and Mrs. Goebbels killed themselves and their six children. Is this common knowledge? I just learned this today.

    Replies: @anon, @Ancient Briton

    The day after Hitler killed himself Dr. and Mrs. Goebbels killed themselves and their six children.

    In that order, too. You can see how very dangerous Nazis were.

    Is this common knowledge? I just learned this today.

    I can’t wait to see what you will learn tomorrow!

  57. @ScarletNumber
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    The day after Hitler killed himself Dr. and Mrs. Goebbels killed themselves and their six children. Is this common knowledge? I just learned this today.

    Replies: @anon, @Ancient Briton

    Breaking News from 1945!

  58. First off, there are a good number of anecdotal reports of asymptomatic kids infecting a lot of others, to be opposed to this one case.
    Second, there’s an amount of data, especially from China (the medical admin, that is, that’s really on top of it) and Germany, which are the ones I followed, that the younger the person, the less symptomatic the disease. Meaning that children (almost) don’t get the disease, but do get the infection. And do generally transmit it.
    One established fact is that the more symptomatic the disease, the more virus load and the more infectivity; ie an asymptomatic person will not be as contagious as one with light disease, who will presumably be less contagious than a heavy case. Then there is a confounding observation: shedding/emission decreases when the disease progresses away from the nasopharynx, then gets up to maximum again when the patient develops pneumonia.

  59. @Achmed E. Newman
    @education realist

    Are you at a private school? As far as the lunches, no the kids don't buy it. The taxpayers buy it, and half is wasted because they don't have but 20 minutes to eat. The recess is 20 minutes, and there's no brunch (and neither should there be).

    I've already made many a comment about how we are using this time to get some real learning done, fractions, geography (with estimation and interpolation), and geometry (ruler, protractor, and compass). This is for a 2nd-grader.

    At his good school (good in the iSteve sense, as in good kids with good parents, in general), they waste a big part of the day doing pre-school-level arts & crafts that are supposedly part of the learning process. Oh, and we have been taking 1 1/2 to 2 hour recesses with time for the 1-2 hour work on the silly take-home school stuff, plus Raz kids(?) reading and a some language instruction from an on-line deal too.

    We could knock out elementary school in 2 years.

    Simply wretched...

    Replies: @education realist

    The taxpayers don’t buy lunch for everyone. Hence the term “free and reduced lunch”. Now, I grant you that many school districts declare everyone poor–feel free to fix that. But by and large, they are paid for by people who can afford them and covered by the taxpayers for those who can’t. And no, I don’t teach at a private school. By the way, non-profit private school lunches are paid for by taxpayers, too.

    “We could knock out elementary school in 2 years.”

    Sure, because your kid is emblematic of the average 7 year old. And, by the way, a lot of kids who can easily learn four or five years ahead material end up average intellects in high school. It has to do with reading and memory abilities, rather than IQ.

    I don’t disagree we could do more to educate bright young kids, but like most people, you confuse acceleration with advanced material. It’s not, and if I were designing a school for bright kids they wouldn’t be learning calculus in fourth grade so their parents could brag about it.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @education realist

    Calculus does not involve a whole lot of memorization, "Realist". Maybe you didn't advance that far.

    Listen, when I tell the kid to give me a latitude and longitude for a city within a degree, on an ~18" globe, with the smallest divisions at 15-deg increments, there's no memorization involved. He got the idea of coordinates quickly. Then I went on about "well, what's 1/2 way between 105 degrees E and 120 deg. E? OK, what about 1/3 of the way or 2/3 of the way? OK, show me about 1 degree off this line. That's interpolation AND estimation, good skill both.

    Yeah, he's a smart kid, but then I can tell I'm stretching his mind when he has to think like crazy. If he doesn't, he knows this will go on until he gets it, PERIOD. Then he gets it, and he likes it.

    Government schools do not stretch the kids' minds. They are full of Ed-School graduates who want to show that the $20,000 in student loans that SOMEBODY better pay off, is worth something, so they use words like "schema" and "learning strategy" in the KID'S HOMEWORK! Hell, I'm not even sure what a schema is. I haven't seen "rubric" yet, but I know it's coming.

    For geometry, the ruler, compass, and protractor are real objects he gets to play with, so it's already bit fun due to that. There is no rote memorization and no reading involved, is there?


    By the way, non-profit private school lunches are paid for by taxpayers, too.
     
    And that's the least the governments can do, if they're gonna feed the rest of them 2 meals a day. Those parents are already paying twice for school.
  60. @Old and Grumpy
    @Alec

    I think it the public education employees are more interested to get their indoctrination centers back up and running? Can you imagine what would happen if for example 5% of current housebound public educated kids become full time home-schooled? Gosh golly you might see school budget cuts and closures. Worse yet what if the few bright kids leave the public school system, and don't become liberal sheeple? No wonder Harvard law is starting war against homeschooling?

    Replies: @education realist

    Ha ha ha very ha ha.

    For one thing, if 5% of the current house bound public educated kids become full time home schooled, it would barely make a dent in school budgets and no one in public school would give a damn. (we care about charters and vouchers, but home schooling parents are of no interest).

    For another, we don’t indoctrinate kids. If we can’t teach kids how to read and write beyond their ability, or memorize history, why the hell are you so certain we can indoctrinate them?

    No, kids pick up their politics elsewhere. Not from school.

    • Replies: @Lucius Somesuch
    @education realist

    You deserve (in proportion to your more modest fame) all the derision due a Ben Shapiro. Though doubtless you labor only for your own sweet contentment, your unflagging exertions to police all discourse as it touches upon the hallowed profession you are stuck with render you as odious and unhelpful a public voice as he.

    How you so shamelessly peddle such feeble little lies and still live with yourself is God's own private mystery. You plainly hate your lot in life, and the preemptive, conversation-stopping way you fume at all the world shrieks that you are (anatomically as otherwise) a true Karen.

    I won't pretend that sticking to the belletrist schtick will save your soul. But it seems to be the only respite you enjoy from stewing in purblind know-it-all animosity towards all the world (your readers, your students, and yourself). And it's your talent, such as it is, albeit hobbled by self-importance and the endless strained platitudes you mouth about the nobility not only of your profession but of the "professionals" who fill it. The Gospel truth is that public schools suck--and if Steve's readers didn't enjoy itemizing all the ways they suck, he'd be out of about a third of his clicks right there.

    So if it bothers you so much to see others vent their anger at the dark Deweyite mills you so proudly toil under, stuff your fingers in your ears and go find some chitlins to browbeat for their betterment with "Life of Pi." Among sager sorts your Soccer Mom Socrates routine carries less weight.

    Replies: @vhrm

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @education realist


    No, kids pick up their politics elsewhere. Not from school.
     
    That's a flat-out lie. I've seen it in 1st grade.
  61. @Old and Grumpy
    @education realist

    https://www.lancasterfarming.com/farming/dairy/market-observations-from-a-local-dairy-farmer/article_74b5effb-1641-5713-8cf6-3da2cb3b2be4.html

    Replies: @education realist

    I”m well aware of why it’s happening. I’m saying that’s not an excuse, and if schools just shrugged and actually closed down for three months, we’d get more shit than these folks are.

  62. @Anonymous
    The schools never should've been closed.

    Not only is there zero evidence that children are in harm's way there's also scant evidence of children as asymptomatic spreaders. Check any article that tries to infer such and you'll find weasle words.

    Schools were closed long after the virus arrived. The stone cold fact is there never was a wave of school teachers infected in what should've been a nightmare classroom contagion environment.

    INFECTED SCHOOL TEACHERS SHOULD'VE BEEN FLOODING ICUs AROUND THE WORLD SPRING 2020 BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

    Mass school closings is just one of so many idiotic covid policies based on PROJECT FEAR media lies.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Hail, @Anonymousse, @Kronos

    The schools never should’ve been closed.

    We have a a winner!

    Denmark for its part has admitted its knee-jerk decision to close schools was wrong and has reopened.

  63. Hail says: • Website

    Should Schools Reopen if Kids Really Aren’t Very Infectious?

    Dr. Knut Wittkowski (writing April 21):

    The point of decision (at least in the US) was around March 10-15. At this time, there should have been a discussion involving epidemiologists who could question the Frankenssonian predictions. If that discussion would have had, we would not have had a shutdown.

    What to do now? We need to open schools, as the Leopoldina, the scientific advisopry board of the German government has urged. We should start with children, because they and young adults (teachers and parents) rarely end up in hospitals. At the same time or shortly thereafter we should start opening up businesses. This economy has suffered a lot.

    While we let the epidemic run, we should offer the elderly and vulnerable help with isolating themselves for a few weeks. Let the government pay for delivery of prescription drugs, meals, laundry, … .

    We should also have paid nurses in nursing homes overtime for staying there around the clock so that the homes could have been completely isolated to prevent the virus from entering. Unfortunately, this was not done, so we have now to find a strategy do the best we can.

    A discussion including scientists with expertise in different areas is something that should have been had around 03-10 needs to start now to prevent even more unnecessary damage and unnecessary deaths.

    The “even more unnecessary damage and unnecessary deaths” he is talking about — besides the obvious recession and months-long social disruption to people’s lives amounting to wasted time (all of our lives/time matters; life is of limited span for every one of us; what if some flu-fanatics had shut down your school in [pick your favorite years of high school]?) — is that more people even in the immediate-term may well end up dead of the Panic than of this flu virus, as is now demonstrable in New York City:

    Quantifying excess deaths caused by the Panic vs. excess deaths caused by the Virus in NYC:

    The Panic has very likely caused at least 2x the number of deaths as the virus, based on CDC data.

    observed deaths are consistent with the 0.1% fatality-rate range

  64. Hail says: • Website
    @AnonAnon
    Schools should have never been closed but I am extremely anxious they won’t re-open them in the fall. The media certainly seems to be egging them on in that direction - the LA Times published a story last week that Cal State Fullerton would start the year on line. However, I read a comment buried on Twitter that their teacher union was not notified of this so the story might have been planted to push them in that direction and warm the public up to it. Campus Reform has a story that Boston University had to retract its announcement it might not open until January 2021. I am strongly considering having my oldest, who will be a senior next year - take the quarter off if it’s going to be on line again - the education is subpar and it’s a lot of money to waste on a crap experience.

    I don’t know what Newsom thinks he is doing. From various forums I am in, people seem ready to explode and come May 1, if not this weekend, I think many Californians will be done with obeying the restrictions. I’ll be surprised if violence doesn’t break out this weekend over the bullshit parking situations cities have set up at the beaches.

    Replies: @Hail, @epebble, @RadicalCenter

    Schools should have never been closed but I am extremely anxious they won’t re-open them in the fall

    Phrased another way: The cult will retain its true believers even after the prophesied Apocalypse fails to come and the sun rises as usual. The question: Will the (soon to be) large number of defectors from the cult, and the anti-cultists, have enough power to stop the madness?

  65. @education realist
    @Old and Grumpy

    Ha ha ha very ha ha.

    For one thing, if 5% of the current house bound public educated kids become full time home schooled, it would barely make a dent in school budgets and no one in public school would give a damn. (we care about charters and vouchers, but home schooling parents are of no interest).

    For another, we don't indoctrinate kids. If we can't teach kids how to read and write beyond their ability, or memorize history, why the hell are you so certain we can indoctrinate them?

    No, kids pick up their politics elsewhere. Not from school.

    Replies: @Lucius Somesuch, @Achmed E. Newman

    You deserve (in proportion to your more modest fame) all the derision due a Ben Shapiro. Though doubtless you labor only for your own sweet contentment, your unflagging exertions to police all discourse as it touches upon the hallowed profession you are stuck with render you as odious and unhelpful a public voice as he.

    How you so shamelessly peddle such feeble little lies and still live with yourself is God’s own private mystery. You plainly hate your lot in life, and the preemptive, conversation-stopping way you fume at all the world shrieks that you are (anatomically as otherwise) a true Karen.

    I won’t pretend that sticking to the belletrist schtick will save your soul. But it seems to be the only respite you enjoy from stewing in purblind know-it-all animosity towards all the world (your readers, your students, and yourself). And it’s your talent, such as it is, albeit hobbled by self-importance and the endless strained platitudes you mouth about the nobility not only of your profession but of the “professionals” who fill it. The Gospel truth is that public schools suck–and if Steve’s readers didn’t enjoy itemizing all the ways they suck, he’d be out of about a third of his clicks right there.

    So if it bothers you so much to see others vent their anger at the dark Deweyite mills you so proudly toil under, stuff your fingers in your ears and go find some chitlins to browbeat for their betterment with “Life of Pi.” Among sager sorts your Soccer Mom Socrates routine carries less weight.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Lucius Somesuch

    dude, take it easy...
    What are you comparing public schools to?

    I've got problems with some of the wokeness in the curriculum in some places and the administration stuff and various other things but for the most part a school's a school.

    Your average district school, charter school and parochial school have more things in common than they have differences. Same for the teachers teaching there.

  66. @AnonAnon
    Schools should have never been closed but I am extremely anxious they won’t re-open them in the fall. The media certainly seems to be egging them on in that direction - the LA Times published a story last week that Cal State Fullerton would start the year on line. However, I read a comment buried on Twitter that their teacher union was not notified of this so the story might have been planted to push them in that direction and warm the public up to it. Campus Reform has a story that Boston University had to retract its announcement it might not open until January 2021. I am strongly considering having my oldest, who will be a senior next year - take the quarter off if it’s going to be on line again - the education is subpar and it’s a lot of money to waste on a crap experience.

    I don’t know what Newsom thinks he is doing. From various forums I am in, people seem ready to explode and come May 1, if not this weekend, I think many Californians will be done with obeying the restrictions. I’ll be surprised if violence doesn’t break out this weekend over the bullshit parking situations cities have set up at the beaches.

    Replies: @Hail, @epebble, @RadicalCenter

    Would the large segment of the population that is dissatisfied with public education be happier if physical schools don’t reopen and hence schooling becomes on-line – essentially, homeschooling with guidance? That would also make the debate over desegregation/resegregation, busing and such other historical disputes truly obsolete. What is the value of paying 200% or more for a desirable housing unit if everybody goes to school on the Zoombus? In fact, Covid can completely upend the ZIP code based sociology and allow us to reach the Friedmannian Flatworld Nirvana.

  67. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @LondonBob
    @Alice

    Consumption patterns have dramatically changed, loo paper not needed at workplaces but at homes instead, food needs to be redirected to homes not restaurants. Takes a little time to adjust supply chains. My corner shop always has ample eggs, strangely the supermarket struggles to have any.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Having had a “business” account at a couple of suppliers like Uline has come in handy. I ordered a case of asspaper and some packing supplies during the height of the toilet paper scare and it was here in 72 hours. I gave away half the rolls as gifts. Keeping the rest just in case.

    Uline is not a preferred supplier politically-they finance pro-cuck policies-but they have the stuff and the price is good. Their coffee is pretty good, not Porto Rico Coffee Co., Bleeker St., quality, but better than Folger’s.

  68. @Anonymous
    The schools never should've been closed.

    Not only is there zero evidence that children are in harm's way there's also scant evidence of children as asymptomatic spreaders. Check any article that tries to infer such and you'll find weasle words.

    Schools were closed long after the virus arrived. The stone cold fact is there never was a wave of school teachers infected in what should've been a nightmare classroom contagion environment.

    INFECTED SCHOOL TEACHERS SHOULD'VE BEEN FLOODING ICUs AROUND THE WORLD SPRING 2020 BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

    Mass school closings is just one of so many idiotic covid policies based on PROJECT FEAR media lies.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Hail, @Anonymousse, @Kronos

    True, but if you apply Sailer’s corona butterknife… maybe schools should still be closed. Consider that all the studies and empirical evidence showing that corona is about as dangerous as the flu may all turn out to be completely wrong for a whole bunch of unrelated unspecifiable reasons… and the evidence that kids aren’t in danger and may not even carry the virus could also turn out to be wrong. Corona may turn out to cause asymptomatic children to spontaneously combust ten years down the line, I mean who can say? It hasn’t been DISproven, right?

    Maybe we should just close them down for a short time, maybe just a couple decades or so, until all the peer reviewed long term data is in. You know, just to be SURE. It’s a small matter when you’re talking about the possibility that people on the bitter end of the actuarial tables may die of corona instead of all the other things they’d die of around the same time.

    • LOL: Mehen
  69. @Lucius Somesuch
    @education realist

    You deserve (in proportion to your more modest fame) all the derision due a Ben Shapiro. Though doubtless you labor only for your own sweet contentment, your unflagging exertions to police all discourse as it touches upon the hallowed profession you are stuck with render you as odious and unhelpful a public voice as he.

    How you so shamelessly peddle such feeble little lies and still live with yourself is God's own private mystery. You plainly hate your lot in life, and the preemptive, conversation-stopping way you fume at all the world shrieks that you are (anatomically as otherwise) a true Karen.

    I won't pretend that sticking to the belletrist schtick will save your soul. But it seems to be the only respite you enjoy from stewing in purblind know-it-all animosity towards all the world (your readers, your students, and yourself). And it's your talent, such as it is, albeit hobbled by self-importance and the endless strained platitudes you mouth about the nobility not only of your profession but of the "professionals" who fill it. The Gospel truth is that public schools suck--and if Steve's readers didn't enjoy itemizing all the ways they suck, he'd be out of about a third of his clicks right there.

    So if it bothers you so much to see others vent their anger at the dark Deweyite mills you so proudly toil under, stuff your fingers in your ears and go find some chitlins to browbeat for their betterment with "Life of Pi." Among sager sorts your Soccer Mom Socrates routine carries less weight.

    Replies: @vhrm

    dude, take it easy…
    What are you comparing public schools to?

    I’ve got problems with some of the wokeness in the curriculum in some places and the administration stuff and various other things but for the most part a school’s a school.

    Your average district school, charter school and parochial school have more things in common than they have differences. Same for the teachers teaching there.

  70. @education realist
    @Alice

    It's worth mentioning, as long as we're talking about schools, that schools turned around and began doing their best to educate in an entirely different way, and they did it with no notice. And despite horror stories, the bulk of schools are managing to educate (some doing too much, some doing too little, and some like baby bear doing it just right.)

    Meanwhile, it apparently defeats farmers and processors to figure out how to get milk to people who need it.

    I don't fucking want to hear a word about how wretched public schools are anymore.

    Replies: @Sam Haysom, @Alice, @Old and Grumpy, @Old and Grumpy, @Kronos

    Have you noticed if the emergency online classes are more organized by teachers or the administration department?

  71. @Anonymous
    The schools never should've been closed.

    Not only is there zero evidence that children are in harm's way there's also scant evidence of children as asymptomatic spreaders. Check any article that tries to infer such and you'll find weasle words.

    Schools were closed long after the virus arrived. The stone cold fact is there never was a wave of school teachers infected in what should've been a nightmare classroom contagion environment.

    INFECTED SCHOOL TEACHERS SHOULD'VE BEEN FLOODING ICUs AROUND THE WORLD SPRING 2020 BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

    Mass school closings is just one of so many idiotic covid policies based on PROJECT FEAR media lies.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Hail, @Anonymousse, @Kronos

    Mass school closings is just one of so many idiotic covid policies based on PROJECT FEAR media lies.

    It was a gamble that thankfully isn’t (so far) paying off. Back when schools physically closed there was even less information then we have now. By the time perfect information is presented its often too late to make the correct decision. Hindsight might be 20/20 but the unknown future is myopic.

    Also, if this virus had killed up to 0.05% of students in a given state (mainly type 1 diabetes with compromised immune systems and such) that may still lead to potential lawsuits and bad press.

    Keep in mind this is still a relatively unknown virus that I still strongly believe was made in a lab.

  72. @education realist
    @Achmed E. Newman

    The taxpayers don't buy lunch for everyone. Hence the term "free and reduced lunch". Now, I grant you that many school districts declare everyone poor--feel free to fix that. But by and large, they are paid for by people who can afford them and covered by the taxpayers for those who can't. And no, I don't teach at a private school. By the way, non-profit private school lunches are paid for by taxpayers, too.

    "We could knock out elementary school in 2 years."

    Sure, because your kid is emblematic of the average 7 year old. And, by the way, a lot of kids who can easily learn four or five years ahead material end up average intellects in high school. It has to do with reading and memory abilities, rather than IQ.

    I don't disagree we could do more to educate bright young kids, but like most people, you confuse acceleration with advanced material. It's not, and if I were designing a school for bright kids they wouldn't be learning calculus in fourth grade so their parents could brag about it.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Calculus does not involve a whole lot of memorization, “Realist”. Maybe you didn’t advance that far.

    Listen, when I tell the kid to give me a latitude and longitude for a city within a degree, on an ~18″ globe, with the smallest divisions at 15-deg increments, there’s no memorization involved. He got the idea of coordinates quickly. Then I went on about “well, what’s 1/2 way between 105 degrees E and 120 deg. E? OK, what about 1/3 of the way or 2/3 of the way? OK, show me about 1 degree off this line. That’s interpolation AND estimation, good skill both.

    Yeah, he’s a smart kid, but then I can tell I’m stretching his mind when he has to think like crazy. If he doesn’t, he knows this will go on until he gets it, PERIOD. Then he gets it, and he likes it.

    Government schools do not stretch the kids’ minds. They are full of Ed-School graduates who want to show that the $20,000 in student loans that SOMEBODY better pay off, is worth something, so they use words like “schema” and “learning strategy” in the KID’S HOMEWORK! Hell, I’m not even sure what a schema is. I haven’t seen “rubric” yet, but I know it’s coming.

    For geometry, the ruler, compass, and protractor are real objects he gets to play with, so it’s already bit fun due to that. There is no rote memorization and no reading involved, is there?

    By the way, non-profit private school lunches are paid for by taxpayers, too.

    And that’s the least the governments can do, if they’re gonna feed the rest of them 2 meals a day. Those parents are already paying twice for school.

  73. @vhrm

    Should Schools Reopen if Kids Really Aren't Very Infectious?
     
    How infectious kids are is a fine question.
    But given my frustration with the shutdown to me the title reads reads like a "Conjunction Effect" example (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy ) :-)

    So:
    Should we reopen the schools if kids aren't very infectious? yes
    Should we reopen the schools if Putin blackmailed Bernie into dropping out of the race with a telephoto lens? yes
    Should we reopen the schools if one equals zero?" yes

    We should reopen them in a boat
    We should reopen them with a goat
    ... in the rain
    ... on a train
    ... in a tree
    ... in a box
    ... with a fox
    ... in a house [though i guess that's one place they're already open]
    ... with a mouse
    ... here and there
    We should reopen anywhere!

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Oh, I missed the one before. Thank you for the Dr. Suess, Vhrm!

    When we reopen, I want some green eggs and ham, courtesy of Uncle Sam I am.

  74. @education realist
    @Old and Grumpy

    Ha ha ha very ha ha.

    For one thing, if 5% of the current house bound public educated kids become full time home schooled, it would barely make a dent in school budgets and no one in public school would give a damn. (we care about charters and vouchers, but home schooling parents are of no interest).

    For another, we don't indoctrinate kids. If we can't teach kids how to read and write beyond their ability, or memorize history, why the hell are you so certain we can indoctrinate them?

    No, kids pick up their politics elsewhere. Not from school.

    Replies: @Lucius Somesuch, @Achmed E. Newman

    No, kids pick up their politics elsewhere. Not from school.

    That’s a flat-out lie. I’ve seen it in 1st grade.

  75. Inside sources say Benito Cuomo is supposed to announce this week that schools in NYS will be closed until JANUARY.

    This would clearly please his #1 voting block, the teachers unions, who (along with all the admin slugs) are basically on a continuous paid vacation, ‘online class’ tomfoolery aside.

    Parents? – TFB.

    This fascist m-effer is absolutely out of control. And this being effectively a one-party state (like CA), who will challenge this BS? Certainly not the few pitiful RINOs in NY. He is absolutely reveling in his self-proclaimed dictatorial power.

    It will be interesting to see if Benito actually makes the announcement, and what normal people’s reactions will be. I’m sure the local and national media will redouble their fellating of this pig.

  76. @ScarletNumber
    @education realist

    As you well know, this is a union issue. Teachers are going to cry "unsafe working environment" as long as they are collecting their full salaries "working" from home. If teachers were being laid off due to the closures, then the unions would fight for them to reopen.

    Replies: @David

    What’s with the new scare quotes around working from home? A few weeks ago your effort justified increased compensation. Which is true?

    Of course we would. Why wouldn’t we? I’m working at home, and my contract says I work 180 days per year.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @David

    I never said my compensation should be increased from working at home.

  77. Not in that order. Dr. and Mrs. Goebbels killed their children first.

  78. @AnonAnon
    Schools should have never been closed but I am extremely anxious they won’t re-open them in the fall. The media certainly seems to be egging them on in that direction - the LA Times published a story last week that Cal State Fullerton would start the year on line. However, I read a comment buried on Twitter that their teacher union was not notified of this so the story might have been planted to push them in that direction and warm the public up to it. Campus Reform has a story that Boston University had to retract its announcement it might not open until January 2021. I am strongly considering having my oldest, who will be a senior next year - take the quarter off if it’s going to be on line again - the education is subpar and it’s a lot of money to waste on a crap experience.

    I don’t know what Newsom thinks he is doing. From various forums I am in, people seem ready to explode and come May 1, if not this weekend, I think many Californians will be done with obeying the restrictions. I’ll be surprised if violence doesn’t break out this weekend over the bullshit parking situations cities have set up at the beaches.

    Replies: @Hail, @epebble, @RadicalCenter

    Hey AA, we live in SoCal too, what’s up, brah. I think you’re right that in-person schooling needs to resume for these poor kids, but will not.

    Our older kids attend LAUSD. One of their teachers remarked that the Governor / Superintendent of Education “have already decided to start the new school year online, they just haven’t said it yet.”

    We’re guessing that CALIFORNIA will take an extreme position and keep physical schools (and playgrounds 🙁 closed during the first half of the 2020-21 school year. First day of school here is Tuesday August 18, so Governor Newsom or LAUSD Superintendent Austin Beuttner will likely make the announcement in July.

    If there’s no need to be near their school until 2021, we may downsize from our current downtown LA apartment to a smaller, cheaper one nearby. The difference will be $500 to $700 per month.

    My wife & kids would go live with my family on the East Coast for the rest of 2020. I still need to go to a physical workplace some days, so I’d stay in LA and visit them periodically for a couple weeks at a time.

    The rent savings will pay for the very short move, the airfares and Uber. With money left over for a couple nice little regional road trips in the Fall and Spring. (Whichever Northeastern State is sensible enough to reopen WINERIES this Fall, there ye shall find us. We will bravely volunteer to be their first tourists in the supposed New Era 🍷 😊

    So, there is our own unusual plan if Mexifornian “authorities” extend the school closure into the new school year.

  79. Some of the evidence used in Australia to justify re-opening schools following current holiday break.
    http://ncirs.org.au/covid-19-in-schools

  80. @David
    @ScarletNumber

    What's with the new scare quotes around working from home? A few weeks ago your effort justified increased compensation. Which is true?


    Of course we would. Why wouldn’t we? I’m working at home, and my contract says I work 180 days per year.
     

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    I never said my compensation should be increased from working at home.

  81. Yes – but Home Schooling with Friends is really, the Best!

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