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Should Organic Chem Professors Ease Off on Today's Stressed-Out Premeds?
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From the New York Times news section:

At N.Y.U., Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. Who Was to Blame?

Maitland Jones Jr., a respected professor, defended his standards. But students started a petition, and the university dismissed him.

Students said Maitland Jones’s course was too hard and blamed him and his teaching methods for their poor showings.

By Stephanie Saul
Oct. 3, 2022

In the field of organic chemistry, Maitland Jones Jr. has a storied reputation. He taught the subject for decades, first at Princeton and then at New York University, and wrote an influential textbook. He received awards for his teaching, as well as recognition as one of N.Y.U.’s coolest professors.

But last spring, as the campus emerged from pandemic restrictions, 82 of his 350 students signed a petition against him.

Students said the high-stakes course — notorious for ending many a dream of medical school — was too hard, blaming Dr. Jones for their poor test scores.

The professor defended his standards. But just before the start of the fall semester, university deans terminated Dr. Jones’s contract.

Organic chemistry is a crucial course for a college, since it serves as the chief weed-out course for pre-meds.

NYU is, these days, a famous and prestigious college (like USC and George Lucas, NYU has benefited from Martin Scorsese’s long close association with it as a student and teacher. Indeed, Lucas recently gave a major gift to NYU to establish the Martin Scorsese Institute of Global Cinematic Arts. My view is that while it’s natural to resent their cultural influence, hugely successful individuals like George Lucas and Martin Scorsese are, actually, on the whole, excellent human beings who have made our lives better).

But NYU doesn’t have a huge endowment per student. So it’s more dependent than H-Y-P-S upon a lot of affluent people paying a lot of tuition for their kids to attend. There is a lot to be said for that market-responsiveness, but there are also downsides.

“The deans are obviously going for some bottom line, and they want happy students who are saying great things about the university so more people apply and the U.S. News rankings keep going higher,” said Paramjit Arora, a chemistry professor who has worked closely with Dr. Jones.

Professor Jones is 84. He retired from Princeton, where he had tenure, in 2007, and was since teaching at NYU on a non-tenure arrangement.

One of NYU’s distinctive strategies is that New York City is full of smart people who can teach, so don’t hire tenured professors, hire smart folks without tenure.

Jones is apparently a famous teacher.

But I can imagine that the various complications of learning to teach during the pandemic with new remote methods, hybrid methods, or whatever would not have been his strong suit.

As for Zoom access, he said the technology in the lecture hall made it impossible to record his white board problems.

I sure don’t intend to learn any new technologies in the my 80s. I’ve barely used Zoom in my 60s.

That said, it could well be that kids are getting lazier and dumber during the Great Awokening and especially since the 2020 cultural double whammy of covid and George Floyd. Which bodes ill for future patients, such as, well, us all.

In short, this one unhappy chemistry class could be a case study of the pressures on higher education as it tries to handle its Gen-Z student body. Should universities ease pressure on students, many of whom are still coping with the pandemic’s effects on their mental health and schooling? How should universities respond to the increasing number of complaints by students against professors? Do students have too much power over contract faculty members, who do not have the protections of tenure?

And how hard should organic chemistry be anyway?

My impression is that doctors generally aren’t Dr. House-level genius diagnosticians. But … they tend to be fanatically hard-working. And I appreciate that.

One reason for that level of doctoral diligence is that to go to medical school you have to do decently as an undergrad in Organic Chem, which is a really hard course.

Dr. Jones, 84, is known for changing the way the subject is taught. In addition to writing the 1,300-page textbook “Organic Chemistry,” now in its fifth edition, he pioneered a new method of instruction that relied less on rote memorization and more on problem solving.

After retiring from Princeton in 2007, he taught organic chemistry at N.Y.U. on a series of yearly contracts. About a decade ago, he said in an interview, he noticed a loss of focus among the students, even as more of them enrolled in his class, hoping to pursue medical careers. …

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said. …

Many students were having other problems. Kent Kirshenbaum, another chemistry professor at N.Y.U., said he discovered cheating during online tests.

When he pushed students’ grades down, noting the egregious misconduct, he said they protested that “they were not given grades that would allow them to get into medical school.”

Cheating is a growing problem in American education. Long ago, I went to a Southern college that had an honor code because it expected students to ask themselves, “What would Robert E. Lee do?” But to many students these days, “What would Jordan Belfort do?” seems a more relevant question.

By spring 2022, the university was returning with fewer Covid restrictions, but the anxiety continued and students seemed disengaged.

“They weren’t coming to class, that’s for sure, because I can count the house,” Dr. Jones said in an interview. “They weren’t watching the videos, and they weren’t able to answer the questions.”

The Not So Great Reset seems to be a general slacking off.

Strikingly, this article doesn’t bring up any Diversity angle, although I presume there was one to a moderate degree. An interesting question is whether a pay to play college like NYU has a greater or lesser Diversity Problem than richer colleges.

 
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  1. Knowing NYU, it’s my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.
    Also, it’s somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.

    • Troll: JimB
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @prosa123


    Also, it’s somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.
     
    A lot of universities now entrust teaching to contracted temps. It's because the universities themselves don't care about teaching. They'll flat out tell tenure-track faculty that teaching is irrelevant to their getting tenure. All that counts is how much sponsored research money they bring in, from which the university takes a cut. Then the administrators use the money to hire their pals (you can never have enough administrators) and hire lobbyists to work the legislature for more building funds (you can never have enough new administration buildings). So faculty members buy out of their teaching responsibilities (with their grant money) and then the university uses a fraction of that to hire a temp. I've seen the process at work.

    Academia - like everything else in our society - has become a racket.
    , @AndrewR
    @prosa123

    In college I studied physics with a guy around that age. He was very friendly and had some good stories. And his study guides were thorough and helped me ace the class. But his hearing was bad and a lot of students complained about it.

    , @fish
    @prosa123

    Also, it’s somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.


    Why? He rewrote the book on teaching O-Chem. This is what happens when this shit takes root! First it’s Dindu whining when he’d rather go “shoe shopping” during the festival of St.Floyd rather than finish his intermediate school quality senior thesis. Now what…..Asian cram students whining about actually learning rather than yet another of those temporary brain uploads that have been the bulk of their educations.

    It’s not just the country that’s fucked it’s the whole world!


    (After I saw this I bought Maitlands textbook! I’ll let you know!)

    , @Redman
    @prosa123

    That’s exactly what I told my liberal friends who all sent me this NYT article thinking I’d be incensed at the liberal lack of standards. What’s up with the ancient folks having such positions of power in America? Do we not know the meaning of retirement anymore? That was my first thought.

    Maybe after the Biden dementia debacle experiment we can get back to reality.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    , @PiltdownMan
    @prosa123


    Knowing NYU, it’s my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.
     
    It's also possible that a high percentage of the dismayed students are not Asian, or, at least, not East Asian. East Asian kids are used to academic pressure and having to grind through hard work, the norm for students in the cultures in their countries of origin, as well as in their immigrant families.

    They might be South Asians, though, since many first generation Indian-American kids opt to try to get into medical school, and they tend to be more vocal about, and perhaps more savvy about, using the levers afforded today in the form of complaints about selective discrimination, fairness, and so on.

    I'm just speculating, of course.

    Replies: @Bramble, @Dan Kurt

    , @Sam Hildebrand
    @prosa123


    Also, it’s somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.
     
    Better than an Asian grad student with poor English skills.
  2. An interesting question is whether a pay to play college like NYU has a greater or lesser Diversity Problem than richer colleges.

    They get dinged for diversity here, but not sure how they compare to “richer colleges.”
    https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/new-york-university/student-life/diversity/

    They are working on it though.
    https://www.nyu.edu/life/global-inclusion-and-diversity/policies-and-reporting/university-data.html

    NYU in New York City has admitted the most diverse undergraduate (2023) class in history:

    African American students representing 12 percent and
    Latinx students representing 22 percent of those accepted.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    @res

    NYU's faculty is 68% and there is no breakout of the percentage of whites that are Jewish. The undergrad student body is 25% white, even if another 15% is white from the international student group that only gets it up to 40%. What does this website want, for every college to be half black?

  3. You would think that if he had difficulties getting his whiteboard problems to work with Zoom, the university would have provided him with some technical help. Come on!

    Sounds like they just wanted to get rid of him because he was in his eighties.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Jonathan Mason

    No.

    As I mentioned in a comment on another post, the problem is that a certain percentage of pre-meds are to be filtered out in every filtering class. Too few and the med school acceptance rate gets too low. Too many and the total accepted goes down. Also, having a number of students pass first semester organic is required to provide students for second semester organic and more advanced chemistry and biology classes.

    The balance was broken by some combination of the professor, the students, and COVID. The professor is the one who can be fired.

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy

  4. Useful information for evaluation of the sources of this increased failure rate: the same massive decrease in student achievement under Covid-induced remote learning has also hit the UK and Ireland. Everyone in academia in UK and Ireland are talking about the shocking decline in exam performance last academic year. The remote learning technologies in use last year seemed plausible, but need some serious adjustment. The previous Covid years were not as shocking since exams were also on-line and hence poor measures of performance (lots of on-line cheating for example). This past year, teaching was mostly on-line (with optional in-person attendance) but with required in-person exams. It became clear how much standards had dropped. Nothing to do with diversity in this case.

  5. NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.

    • Agree: PiltdownMan, BosTex
    • Thanks: Coemgen
    • Replies: @Father Coughlin
    @Paleo Liberal

    Anecdotally, Asian students who receive bad grades in the US go ape-shit sometimes and have their parents, uncles, and even government ministers call the US professor to complain.

    Replies: @Unit472, @J.Ross

    , @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Paleo Liberal


    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.
     
    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive. A lot of formerly commuter-oriented schools generated cash flow by building dormitories and requiring on-campus living but boarding in NYU's dorms is probably well below market rents for the area.

    Of course, it could solve two problems at once by selling all of its real estate and decamping to an outer borough with more abundant, cheaper land but then it wouldn't really be NYU anymore, would it? I think a big part of its draw for a lot of students originating from elsewhere is getting to live in Lower Manhattan in one's late teens and early twenties. Take that away and it's just another boring but expensive University.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Technite78, @Anonymous

    , @guest007
    @Paleo Liberal

    Not only do foreign students pay full retail (no FAFSA completion required), those foreign students also pay a surcharge for extra support and programs. The big money maker for universities is setting up one year cheapie masters programs that cater to international students. That way, a large number of international students will pay full retail for a piece of paper that says NYU on it while learning very little. The other big money maker is setting up a campus in an oil rich country so that the international students do not mix with the real students.

    , @Hibernian
    @Paleo Liberal

    NYU was hit hard in the late '60s/early '70s by having to sell its traditional campus in the Bronx at a fire sale price, because the Bronx was falling apart. It spun off its engineering school and consolidated at its Downtown night school campus, which I believe was the original 19th century campus. The spun off engineering school merged with Brooklyn Poly, which years later merged with NYU. So NYU now has two very urban campuses, one each in Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan.

    , @Bugg
    @Paleo Liberal

    Graduated NYU undergrad biz school in 1986. Has transitioned since from a commuter school to more of a residental campus. In the process has acquired other schools like Polytechnic (an engineering school in downtown Brooklyn) , many buildings for dorms and hospitals across NYC. Arguably NYU now has as much realty in NYC as any private entity other than the Catholic Church.

    But to save $, NYU has forever employed graduate assistants and adjuncts to teach many undergrad courses. None are tenured, and many are foreign born and ESL.Other NY area schools, even less prestigous ones, simply don't do that. Every few years they go on strike to protest their lousy pay.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    , @BosTex
    @Paleo Liberal

    Both my wife and I went to Northeastern. She in the 2000s.

    Northeastern changed radically. The number of subcontinentals was incredible.

    This was a school that used to serve (mostly) local kids with a focus on vocational degrees like engineering and engineering technology,
    Business in all its aspects, physical therapy, law enforcement, etc.

    It had radically altered in the 2000s.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @That Would Be Telling

  6. Leftist contrarian Freddie DeBoer has a good take on this. https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/nyu-students-punch-down-at-adjunct

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Thanks: MEH 0910
  7. Cheating, or finding some other way of passing part of the core curriculum without actually learning it, always seemed counterproductive to me (when I was in school). How could you possibly do well in your chosen field if you didn’t master the basics?

    Of course we’re less of a meritocracy now, and more of a racial/ethnic kleptocracy… so the general idea seems to be that as long as you can somehow get the credential, you’ve got a license to steal.

    • Agree: fish
  8. In my experience (a million years ago) attending lectures on Organic Chemistry was deadly dull. On t’other hand doing the corresponding synthesis lab was great fun. Since I thrived in that lab I must assume that some of the content of the dismal lectures had lodged in my brain.

    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn’t have been based simply on directed reading and lab work. But my classmates insisted that lectures were necessary. I suspect they were right, but why? Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?

    • Replies: @fish
    @dearieme

    No….I think you’re on to something. I don’t remember a single second of the lab but I do remember the lecture portion…. vaguely. I think a front loaded lab section with a concise trailing lecture discussing the how and why of the lab would have been vastly more helpful!

    , @Dave from Oz
    @dearieme


    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn’t have been based simply on directed reading and lab work.
     
    I have suggested many times that the lecture and taking notes is a relic of the days before the printing press, when a student would literally need to listen and copy down the words of the Great Man to have any permanent copy of the information.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @dearieme


    Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?
     
    "Lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg..."

    and an age after YouTube.
    , @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @dearieme

    Presumably, lectures do allow students to ask questions of the instructor in order to clarify hard to understand topics covered in the lectures. Some of the questions asked will, of course, reflect the dullness or laziness of the student; others might reflect the poor delivery methods of content by the instructor or a poorly written textbook and others may simply reflect on the usefulness of a little back and forth between the student and the teacher.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    , @PhysicistDave
    @dearieme

    dearieme wrote:


    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn’t have been based simply on directed reading and lab work. But my classmates insisted that lectures were necessary. I suspect they were right, but why? Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?
     
    I took two years of courses, which were really a bit above my level, from Richard Feynman because he was a really great lecturer.

    I also heard Luis Alvarez give a lecture on the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs before he and his colleagues had published their results: word went out among the grad students at Stanford that Luis was coming across the Bay and had something important to talk about. Absolutely brilliant lecture: we were all stunned and completely convinced that they had nailed it.

    A great lecturer can really make a subject come alive.

    The problem of course is that, by and large, you do not become a university prof by being a great lecturer. Not all that many rise to the level even of mediocrity. The system does need to change.

    Replies: @David Davenport

    , @Rob
    @dearieme


    In my experience (a million years ago) attending lectures… Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?
     
    I think these two things are related. We have a lot more evolutionary experience learning from listening than from reading. If you had had another million years of evolution under your belt back in college, you would have gotten much more from lectures.
  9. @Jonathan Mason
    You would think that if he had difficulties getting his whiteboard problems to work with Zoom, the university would have provided him with some technical help. Come on!

    Sounds like they just wanted to get rid of him because he was in his eighties.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    No.

    As I mentioned in a comment on another post, the problem is that a certain percentage of pre-meds are to be filtered out in every filtering class. Too few and the med school acceptance rate gets too low. Too many and the total accepted goes down. Also, having a number of students pass first semester organic is required to provide students for second semester organic and more advanced chemistry and biology classes.

    The balance was broken by some combination of the professor, the students, and COVID. The professor is the one who can be fired.

    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Paleo Liberal

    I remember a friend from undergrad took that class and said it was not as impossibly hard as she had been led to believe. The kicker is that most medical schools want you to have at least a B in Organic. Getting a B both semesters is probably a much taller order than simply passing.

  10. @Paleo Liberal
    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.

    Replies: @Father Coughlin, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @guest007, @Hibernian, @Bugg, @BosTex

    Anecdotally, Asian students who receive bad grades in the US go ape-shit sometimes and have their parents, uncles, and even government ministers call the US professor to complain.

    • Agree: Polistra
    • Replies: @Unit472
    @Father Coughlin

    15 years ago I ordered some GPS jammers from China. They also blocked 3G phone service and police radios. I just wanted to bloc GPS signals to keep worthless public sector administrators from ''timing'' how long it took me to do a job since they promised they would never do that and it was just for our safety but it was apparent that was all they were doing and to use the little pocket units to shut down cellphones so I could have someones undivided attention since they requested the appointment.

    Anyway I got a bigger more powerful unit and found I could turn off cellphones at busy intersections so when the left turn arrow was green people would notice and drive instead of talking on the phone and make everyone miss the light.

    The Chinese instruction manual was amusing though since it specifically stated blocking cell and internet traffic was useful in the school setting to prevent students from cheating. I hadn't thought of that but maybe todays teachers should demand schools require them in examination rooms.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    , @J.Ross
    @Father Coughlin

    Right, because they don't think that grades are grades. They think it's like being denied a table at Dorsa.

  11. @prosa123
    Knowing NYU, it's my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.
    Also, it's somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @AndrewR, @fish, @Redman, @PiltdownMan, @Sam Hildebrand

    Also, it’s somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.

    A lot of universities now entrust teaching to contracted temps. It’s because the universities themselves don’t care about teaching. They’ll flat out tell tenure-track faculty that teaching is irrelevant to their getting tenure. All that counts is how much sponsored research money they bring in, from which the university takes a cut. Then the administrators use the money to hire their pals (you can never have enough administrators) and hire lobbyists to work the legislature for more building funds (you can never have enough new administration buildings). So faculty members buy out of their teaching responsibilities (with their grant money) and then the university uses a fraction of that to hire a temp. I’ve seen the process at work.

    Academia – like everything else in our society – has become a racket.

    • Agree: bomag
  12. The Putnam Exam is fucking hard….but how hard can Organic Chemistry be outside of memorization? Can’t they take some kind of jelly fish abstract? Or drink the blue blood of that weird looking Horseshoe crab from the North East of America…?

    • Replies: @War for Blair Mountain
    @War for Blair Mountain

    I mean organic chemistry is not like the classification of finite simple groups…gd cry babies…

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

    , @War for Blair Mountain
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Should read:‘jelly fish extract….”

    , @The Wobbly Guy
    @War for Blair Mountain

    I teach chemistry in Singapore at the pre-university level... but the content I teach is equivalent to university 1st and 2nd year content.
    https://www.seab.gov.sg/docs/default-source/national-examinations/syllabus/alevel/2022syllabus/9729_y22_sy.pdf

    There's much more to organic chemistry than mere memorization.

    There's synthesis - e.g. how do you get from compound A to compound B?

    Explanation - e.g. why is compound C more acidic than compound D?

    Mechanisms - e.g. why does compound E react this way when compound F reacts THAT way?

    And finally, the type of question my students hate the most, structural elucidation - here's unknown compound G. Here are some observations of its reactions and features. Figure out its structure.

    I can say I'm a damn good chemistry teacher - my students have consistently gotten value-added results, which is to say I've gotten them to score better than the system predicted them to be.

    As for its applicability to medicine... well, some of the stuff is relevant, but I also think it's really just a filter/weeding out process. Where organic chemistry is really relevant is probably more the pharmacy side.

    As for teaching it online, well, I guess as a child of the IT revolution I had no problems adapting to remote learning. Heck, I pioneered it in my school and pushed for more blended style learning, which paid huge dividends with covid. Got some nifty performance bonuses out of it too.

    To teach using zoom, all I need is a random name generator (used excel for it), a tablet laptop where I can draw on the screen, MS One Note, and maybe chemsketch. Heck, I did zoom teaching for almost all of 2020 and it went fine. Keep calling students, get them to answer, tell them to flash their written answers and hold it up on screen, or whatsapp me so I can put it up.

    But it works only for a smaller class, maybe 30, tops. Larger groups, harder to keep them on task, but that's where the pedagogy comes in and you've got to spice it up periodically with videos and other activities.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @War for Blair Mountain

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @War for Blair Mountain


    but how hard can Organic Chemistry be outside of memorization?
     
    Answering you, @Alec Leamas (working from home), yourself maybe, @theMann, @fish, and agreeing with @Rob, @Hibernian a lot harder because there's a lot more to it:

    You must be both a wordcel and a shape-rotator and use both skills together. You must memorize (and here that old sacked professor as described by the media (warning) sounds completely out to lunch) a bunch of names of molecules and groups of atoms which do have a system so it's not like random digits, and their 3D shapes, and you must literally rotate shapes and otherwise visualize them in 3D.

    Besides the possible but very dubious to me pharmacological tie in, and of course organic is a prerequisite of biochemistry, mastering these in the limited context of a single semester course (I saw someone say a second term is required?? but I don't know that, was on a science not premed track), should be an excellent weed-out for people who won't be able to memorize the similar style of data about the body including of course anatomy, for the latter the corresponding 3D shapes, then you don't have to as intensely shape-rotate it all but you still need to visualize everything all together in 3D.

    This is particularly true for surgeons including those athletic orthapeds who have to manipulate bones still attached to protesting muscles, it's also needed for diagnostics, and obviously radiology (creation and interpretation of images) and radiotherapy. And I'm sure other things.

    It's a lot of work, and if you can't do it you're not likely to become an adequate doctor. Even if you were to become for example a psychiatrist you need the more general medical education to know when something else is going on. You're also expected to have a clue in emergencies.

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

  13. Another opportunity for my perennial question: “Is organic chemistry necessary for the study of medicine for a general practitioner, or is it simply a weeding out course as a barrier to entry into the medical profession?”

    Medical doctors I’ve asked this question tend to fall into the latter camp – it’s just a science-y hoop to jump through to keep the numbers down.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Another opportunity for my perennial question: “Is organic chemistry necessary for the study of medicine for a general practitioner, or is it simply a weeding out course as a barrier to entry into the medical profession?”
    Medical doctors I’ve asked this question tend to fall into the latter camp – it’s just a science-y hoop to jump through to keep the numbers down.


    Chemistry and chemical engineering majors also have to take it, however the article seems to focus on just pre-med students.

    Replies: @Meretricious, @fish, @Frank the Prof

  14. @War for Blair Mountain
    The Putnam Exam is fucking hard….but how hard can Organic Chemistry be outside of memorization? Can’t they take some kind of jelly fish abstract? Or drink the blue blood of that weird looking Horseshoe crab from the North East of America…?

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @War for Blair Mountain, @The Wobbly Guy, @That Would Be Telling

    I mean organic chemistry is not like the classification of finite simple groups…gd cry babies…

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @War for Blair Mountain

    In my undergraduate years as a math major, the first encounter with group theory weeded out 60 out of 86 students who had declared intentions to major in pure and applied math. A lot of high school hotshots in mathematics who were good at algebra and calculus who had aspirations to become mathematicians found the kind of thinking required to successfully tackle and deal with mathematical structure, and finite mathematics in general, utterly alien and very hard to do.

    I think organic chemistry is unexpectedly hard for many pre-meds and chemistry undergrads for the same reason. It's about structure, especially spacial structure, and requires very different cognitive skills to master, as compared to the topics in chemistry they may have encountered previously.

    It also doesn't help that many an undergrad takes it at just the point where they've settled into college and are sophomores or juniors, and their dance cards are full, both socially and academically. Few have the wisdom and time planning skills to jettison what is inessential in their college lives and buckle down to tackle it.

    For those going to medical school, it does serve as a means to weed out pre-meds, but a full blown organic chemistry undergrad course is really designed for chemistry majors, and is almost certainly has way more information than most doctors need. An easier "Organic Chemistry for Pre Med" would work just as well, pedagogically speaking.

    But it would not serve the purpose of weeding out students who don't have the capacity to pull it together and work hard, an essential skill in a medicals student, resident, or hospital doctor.

    As many have pointed out above, a good strategy is to take it in the summer—even with a summer job, there is ample time for a college student in those two or three months to focus on the subject, and grind through it and learn it well.

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @War for Blair Mountain, @Brutusale

  15. Steve,

    A tenure track professor in a science has little to do with teaching or even publishing. There main job is to bring in research grants, and then oversee the research that is done by others. That makes successful science professors more like government contractors (funding, timeframes, deliverables, customers) than educators. The big difference between government contracting and academic research is that when a professor brings in a grant, 40% or so is kicked up to the administrators (bosses) to make sure everyone is taken care of.

  16. @Paleo Liberal
    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.

    Replies: @Father Coughlin, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @guest007, @Hibernian, @Bugg, @BosTex

    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.

    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive. A lot of formerly commuter-oriented schools generated cash flow by building dormitories and requiring on-campus living but boarding in NYU’s dorms is probably well below market rents for the area.

    Of course, it could solve two problems at once by selling all of its real estate and decamping to an outer borough with more abundant, cheaper land but then it wouldn’t really be NYU anymore, would it? I think a big part of its draw for a lot of students originating from elsewhere is getting to live in Lower Manhattan in one’s late teens and early twenties. Take that away and it’s just another boring but expensive University.

    • Agree: Polistra
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    "but boarding in NYU’s dorms is probably well below market rents for the area."

    It's actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Peterike, @kimchilover, @Anonymous, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    , @Technite78
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    NYU has gradually been buying up real estate in The East Village/NoLiTa/NoHo. Some years ago, it bought the building that used to be the Tower Records video store, and over 10 years or so turned it into the "Student Link Center"... it's very nice.

    https://www.nyu.edu/dam/nyu/oneStop/images/StudentLink/SLClocations/SLC_Manhattan4.jpg/jcr:content/renditions/cq5dam.web.1280.1280.jpeg

    https://www.nyu.edu/students/student-information-and-resources/student-centers-and-spaces/studentlink-center.html

    , @Anonymous
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)


    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive.
     
    Doesn’t NYU already own most of the land it is on? If so, it is sheltered from high real estate prices.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

  17. @Paleo Liberal
    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.

    Replies: @Father Coughlin, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @guest007, @Hibernian, @Bugg, @BosTex

    Not only do foreign students pay full retail (no FAFSA completion required), those foreign students also pay a surcharge for extra support and programs. The big money maker for universities is setting up one year cheapie masters programs that cater to international students. That way, a large number of international students will pay full retail for a piece of paper that says NYU on it while learning very little. The other big money maker is setting up a campus in an oil rich country so that the international students do not mix with the real students.

  18. Post Covid, entire swathes of the American population seem to think they can spend the rest of their lives basically fucking off without consequences. Well, don’t study and fail Organic Chem ( and cut the crap, it is not that hard) is behavior/consequence .
    Oh, but not to worry, just get the teacher fired – it is just as good as doing the work. So when you can’t successfully complete pre-med, what are the odds on succeeding in medical school? Oh wait, just fire the teachers !

    No society can survive the loss of standards .

    • Agree: fish, Seneca44
  19. In most colleges, organic chem is graded on a steep curve with a B-/C+ median, so in schools with a 1520 SAT average, many students take organic chemistry during summer session at a local junior college to guarantee getting at least an A-. You’d have to be a real glutton for punishment to take it from a world renowned chemistry teacher who has written a 1200 page textbook and emphasizes problem solving over rote memorization.

    • Replies: @Houston 1992
    @JimB

    I think med school admission committees look very closely to see where, what school etc one earned one's Organic Chem grades. A summer school class in a junior college wont impress the committees.

    Many schools also publish a grade pareto analysis i.e. how many earned A;'s, B;s etc in that class

    Replies: @JimB

  20. Pre-med students are driven. Just not always in ethical ways. Eat your vegetables everyone.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @AKAHorace

    Good comment. I noticed this in the 80's with my classmates who were determined to get to medical school even if they knew they didn't have the academic chops.

    If this particular TA won't give me an A, then I want a new section!
    I'm more likely to have an A average if I major in history, not molecular biology!

    The number of those kids who did go to med school was much lower than those who claimed to be on their way to it. The accepted were all Jewish, Asian or Indian (and good for them).

    Replies: @AKAHorace

  21. So if the good Professor was Jewish, a female/trans/gay or not White, he would still be employed?

    That is a good assumption.

    Alternative to firing him, they could offer flunked students a do-over course taught by someone else. See if the results are markedly different.

    One is tempted to assume that today’s Gen Z students, addicted to screens, can’t comprehend in class information. Or anything much else.

    Are these flunk=outs just stupid/lazy or is the prof here failing to teach them?

    From what he says it is likely that they are used to cramming and coasting, group study and faking using COVID as the generic excuse.

    Good luck with that brain surgery in 20 years. I probably won’t be needing it…

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Muggles

    The only thing that would have protected him was being black or maybe trans. Nowadays, being Jewish or female or gay (or even all three together) offers no protection against the Woke. Ask Amy Wax what kind of protection being a Jewish female offers. Nada. Zip.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @neutral

    , @Polistra
    @Muggles

    Uh oh, you used the J word! Now you're gonna get it.

    NB: try "tptb" — I don't think he screens for that yet.

    , @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    @Muggles

    "One is tempted to assume that today’s Gen Z students, addicted to screens, can’t comprehend in class information. Or anything much else."

    Nobody under 35 cares to comprehend or understand anything, they are not inquisitive. They don't want to learn anything remotely useful. They sit around, smoke pot and stare at the you-know-what. We are heading into a dark age. See: The Shallows.

    Replies: @Muggles

  22. Money quote from the article:

    Other students, though, seemed shellshocked from the experience. In interviews, several of them said that Dr. Jones was keen to help students who asked questions, but that he could also be sarcastic and downbeat about the class’s poor performance.

    After the second midterm for which the average hovered around 30 percent, they said that many feared for their futures. One student was hyperventilating.

    Pobrecito!

  23. Anonymous[980] • Disclaimer says:

    If you go to NYU you’re paying top dollah for a shit education by downtrodden lumpenprole adjuncts, so you damn well better get good grades. NYU, like USC, gives you that faint dimwit trust fund asshole smell. Meritocratic institutions pore over the minutiae of your second-rate good housekeeping seal of approval, like grades. Coming from schools where you don’t get the benefit of the doubt, you should stick to easy courses. Like alkaline hydrolysis is a lot harder than blowing Petraeus for As.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Anonymous


    NYU, like USC, gives you that faint dimwit trust fund asshole smell.
     
    LOL...can confirm...
  24. I sure don’t intend to learn any new technologies in the my 80s. I’ve barely used Zoom in my 60s.

    I think it’s important to keep up with technology as part of keeping your mind agile. My later father in law was a gifted engineer but for some reason (long before he became truly senile) he could just never grasp computers, even simple stuff.

    I think at the end of his career he must have missed out on consulting work because the younger engineers must have seen him as a dinosaur – his analytical methods (although valid) were stuck in the slide rule era. In the old days they used a lot of rules of thumb and short cut methods because it wasn’t practical to solve 1,000 equations to analyze one beam using a slide rule in order to get a precise answer. As a practical matter, you could simplify the problem and only solve ten or 20 equations and get a 95% accurate answer and then add in a safety factor and call it a day.

    Modern engineers think nothing of setting up a problem that requires you to solve 1,000 equations (0r even 1,000,000) because you aren’t going to be sitting there with a slide rule and solving them one by one – you are going to feed the problem into a computer and press a button and zip, the computer will do all that boring repetitive math. And in this era of high materials cost and high fuel costs, having your axle or weigh 5% more than is necessary or your building use 5% more steel or whatever because you are using crude analytical techniques is just not acceptable.

    • Thanks: AndrewR, Houston 1992
    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @Jack D

    My father could repair just about anything, was an airfield rat fixing and flying planes at age 17 and became a known technical innovator in his professional field -- but could never get the hang of personal computers. While still sharp at 80 it just was not in his nature to sit in front of a screen and type.

    My more on-topic thought here is just to wonder how all this would have played out if the professor was 54 or 64 instead of 84. And tenured, of course.

    Replies: @njguy73

  25. @prosa123
    Knowing NYU, it's my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.
    Also, it's somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @AndrewR, @fish, @Redman, @PiltdownMan, @Sam Hildebrand

    In college I studied physics with a guy around that age. He was very friendly and had some good stories. And his study guides were thorough and helped me ace the class. But his hearing was bad and a lot of students complained about it.

  26. @Muggles
    So if the good Professor was Jewish, a female/trans/gay or not White, he would still be employed?

    That is a good assumption.

    Alternative to firing him, they could offer flunked students a do-over course taught by someone else. See if the results are markedly different.

    One is tempted to assume that today's Gen Z students, addicted to screens, can't comprehend in class information. Or anything much else.

    Are these flunk=outs just stupid/lazy or is the prof here failing to teach them?

    From what he says it is likely that they are used to cramming and coasting, group study and faking using COVID as the generic excuse.

    Good luck with that brain surgery in 20 years. I probably won't be needing it...

    Replies: @Jack D, @Polistra, @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    The only thing that would have protected him was being black or maybe trans. Nowadays, being Jewish or female or gay (or even all three together) offers no protection against the Woke. Ask Amy Wax what kind of protection being a Jewish female offers. Nada. Zip.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @Jack D

    Ask Amy Wax what kind of protection being a Jewish female offers.

    It's always open season on conservative Jews, just as it's always open season on conservative blacks. You can say the most hateful things about the latter and get away with it.

    Replies: @Vladimir Berkov

    , @neutral
    @Jack D

    She still has her job, so very well protected.

  27. @prosa123
    Knowing NYU, it's my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.
    Also, it's somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @AndrewR, @fish, @Redman, @PiltdownMan, @Sam Hildebrand

    Also, it’s somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.

    Why? He rewrote the book on teaching O-Chem. This is what happens when this shit takes root! First it’s Dindu whining when he’d rather go “shoe shopping” during the festival of St.Floyd rather than finish his intermediate school quality senior thesis. Now what…..Asian cram students whining about actually learning rather than yet another of those temporary brain uploads that have been the bulk of their educations.

    It’s not just the country that’s fucked it’s the whole world!

    (After I saw this I bought Maitlands textbook! I’ll let you know!)

    • LOL: The Anti-Gnostic
  28. Could you take the time to thank commenter Dr. X, who just brought the article up in the previous thread?

    I’ll do it: H/T, Dr. X.

  29. @Jack D
    @Muggles

    The only thing that would have protected him was being black or maybe trans. Nowadays, being Jewish or female or gay (or even all three together) offers no protection against the Woke. Ask Amy Wax what kind of protection being a Jewish female offers. Nada. Zip.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @neutral

    Ask Amy Wax what kind of protection being a Jewish female offers.

    It’s always open season on conservative Jews, just as it’s always open season on conservative blacks. You can say the most hateful things about the latter and get away with it.

    • Agree: Polistra, Prester John
    • Replies: @Vladimir Berkov
    @Harry Baldwin

    That’s because being a black or Jewish conservative is an acceptable outlet for hate. They are still part of the media and the elite social scene just they are playing the heel. They pose no actual threat to the cathedral.

  30. “About a decade ago, he said in an interview, he noticed a loss of focus among the students”

    Obama being re-elected signaled that the old WASP America was officially over, and the new America 2.0 had begun.

    the amount of datapoints on this stuff is overwhelming. we don’t need to keep asking over and over what changed around the 2011 to 2014 time frame. things visibly went nuts in a dramatic acceleration of all the crazy stuff that had up until then been slowly increasing.

    the leftist takeover began in earnest in the mid 60s and moved on a slow and steady path until 2012, when it became ascendant. then the communist faction of the D party really asserted itself and began to remake America openly. Obama himself was a communist, born to communists, platformed by communists, and managed by communists.

    the current Biden-Harris administration is openly communist and literally staffed by several bolshevik communist descendents. they have trouble not running their mouths in public about their cultural marxist beliefs. why wouldn’t they? they’re in control now. Republican politicians are weak, defeated cowards who won’t resist.

    • Agree: Dr. X, Kylie
    • Replies: @Meretricious
    @prime noticer

    "Obama being re-elected signaled that the old WASP America was officially over"

    I like that quote but I'd substitute "meritocratic" for "old WASP." The key to understanding Barack Obama's rise is to realize just how far affirmative action can lift up black mediocrities like Obama, which is why I dubbed him 'Affirmative Action Barry'

    Replies: @Celt Darnell

  31. The number of people who end up as doctors who can’t handle molar calculations. You’d be scared.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @Altai

    There’s a lot of room for verbal intelligence in medicine. I’d take a doctor with 140 verbal IQ and 100 mathematical* than the other way around.

    I realize that’s a huge gap, but I have a verbal/math and performance IQ gap that’s bigger than that. The psychiatrist who tested me said it was the biggest gap he’d seen absent a disability, like 100/60 is rare but does happen with brain damage.

    For a surgeon, visuospatial ability is really important, along with manual dexterity and and sometimes strength. Organic chemistry is really good for weeding out people without the first. I’ve heard orthopedic surgery residencies like athletes a lot.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Dvnjbbgc, @gabriel alberton

  32. I’d guess it’s the confluence of two factors. The old professor admittedly could not adjust to online teaching. Neither did the young students. Peanut butter meet chocolate.

    I’m told students were confused, depressed, lazy, distressed – young and denied all social life, experiencing the first disruptive event in their short lives, and trodding through the dread alienation of zoom discourse. Because of the extremely poor quality of zoom training many instructors were lenient during the period. Much of student shortfall can be ascribed to their weak personalities: less their own fault than the fault of a culture that has coddled them, imbibed them with Hollywood and social-media inanities, and indoctrinated them in woke nonsense.

  33. NYU’s Brooklyn campus is where the action is:

    NYU students urged to ‘run, hide or fight’ as shots ring out near Brooklyn campus

    (This is actually the site of the former Polytechnic Institute of New York, my alma mater, now the Tandon School of Engineering since its absorption by NYU)

    https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/shots-fired-at-brooklyn-metrotech-center/

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Technite78

    The irony being that when NYU sold its old Bronx campus they promised to never have an engineering program again. Somehow buying Poly released them of that promise.

    Replies: @Inverness, @ScarletNumber

    , @Polistra
    @Technite78


    NYU students urged to ‘run, hide or fight’ as shots ring out
     
    Yeah, I saw that too. Q: Has anyone thought to ask NYU administration exactly what they meant by that tweet?

    Replies: @Peterike, @Technite78, @Charlotte

  34. I can’t imagine taking proper classes remotely and learning.

    I’m self motivated and able to teach myself now, but as 2nd year college student? I would get slaughtered in a course like organic chemistry without in-person instruction.

    • Replies: @Houston 1992
    @Kaz

    hmm try the Sadoway class MIT OCW.

    btw there is some very specific feedback on what Jones might have been doing wrong.
    https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1052652

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  35. And how hard should organic chemistry be anyway?

    This is the only relevant issue in this pseudo-controversy. (Along with the related issue of whether this old prof. made O-Chem harder than it should be).

    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor.

    So, if academia has decided to make O-Chem into a form of hazing that bottlenecks access to med school, then I’d say the kids have a good point. (Although their beef may be more against this tradition than their particular geezer prof.).

    Leaving O-Chem aside, the bigger issue is how hard should it be to become a doctor? Make it too easy and people will die from malpractice. Make it too hard, and people will die from a lack of affordable medical care. A classic Type I vs Type II error conundrum. (Complicated of course by the fact that the supply of doctors also impacts their compensation.)

    I don’t know if anyone has tackled this issue in a systematic cost-benefit way. But it’s kind of important.

    P.S., Why don’t they just grade the class on a normal curve and let the students sort themselves out?

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Hypnotoad666


    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor
     
    I really don't know how you can say this. Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them --which is what organic chemistry teaches -- is absolutely essential for every doctor. This is fundamental, because it will tell them things like which medications are going to interact poorly with the immune system or a patient or which implant is best. I certainly want a doctor who passed orgo, since I don't want him giving me a prescription for a medication that will kill me.

    Replies: @Meretricious, @ic1000, @Bill Jones, @Jack D, @Renter

    , @stillCARealist
    @Hypnotoad666

    The concepts are quite important to understand as you move on to bigger systems. Do you really want a doc who is ignorant about the chemistry behind what they're prescribing?

    And it's not really that hard. You just have to apply yourself and put in the work. LOTS of questions for the TA's and sharper students. LOTS of review of the problem sets. These days with the internet you can probably find old exam questions galore to practice.

    I'm only of middling smarts/diligence and I got through it.

    , @Hibernian
    @Hypnotoad666


    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor.
     
    I took two quarters of Organic Chemistry at Iowa State (I was in Chemical Engineering.) and there's more to it than that. They explain the 3D structures of the molecules. I think that's good for a doctor. I don't trust a doctor who's just committed the Merck medical handbook to memory.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  36. @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Paleo Liberal


    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.
     
    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive. A lot of formerly commuter-oriented schools generated cash flow by building dormitories and requiring on-campus living but boarding in NYU's dorms is probably well below market rents for the area.

    Of course, it could solve two problems at once by selling all of its real estate and decamping to an outer borough with more abundant, cheaper land but then it wouldn't really be NYU anymore, would it? I think a big part of its draw for a lot of students originating from elsewhere is getting to live in Lower Manhattan in one's late teens and early twenties. Take that away and it's just another boring but expensive University.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Technite78, @Anonymous

    “but boarding in NYU’s dorms is probably well below market rents for the area.”

    It’s actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    • Troll: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Steve Sailer

    NYU, unfortunately, does not have a campus per se -- there is no quad, no bucolic area that is clearly a "college". Going to undergrad there is basically like going to grad school at any other college -- no school spirit, no sense of belonging to a class, just a place to get a degree.

    Given its location deep in the Village, however, and the types students it attracts as a result, it never really needed one.

    Replies: @Technite78

    , @Peterike
    @Steve Sailer


    It’s actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

     

    That is, essentially, the entire reason NYU exists. So rich kids from around the world can hook up, get high and party for four years. NYU has been buying up properties like crazy in the West Village, even turning some beautiful pre-war apartments into dorms.

    They are also spending a billion dollars to build this monstrosity on what used to be some tennis courts and a gym.

    https://newyorkyimby.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/181-Mercer-Street2-777x673.jpg
    , @kimchilover
    @Steve Sailer

    After graduating from college I took a summer graduate course in filmmaking at NYU's TISH School of the Arts in the summer of 1997 (I was 23) and my 21 year old roommate was a white hiphop dj from Rhode Island who had been taking the least amount of classes year round to qualify for dorm life since he was 18 (his mom owned a bunch of convenance stores in RI). I gotta admit, he was having a VERY good time.

    , @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer


    It’s actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.
     
    What is good, specifically, about living in the romantic comedy capital?
    , @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Steve Sailer


    It’s actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.
     
    Yea - I suppose if you are cost sensitive it presents a choice of living in the Village for four years as an undergraduate while accumulating debt which would make living in the Village after graduation less likely.

    Hopefully the foreign students get as comically bad idea of "America" from NYU as American students do who "study abroad" in some former imperial European Capital. The American kids who come back from "studying" some remedial material in Rome or London while living in a posh area where a one bedroom flat would be $1.5 Million, eating nightly in restaurants, and seeing the jewels of the former empire daily and say "in Europe, blah blah . . . is better." No, dummies, you just lived in the equivalent of Beverly Hills on "student loan" credit for four months.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson

    , @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Steve Sailer

    Deleted duplicate post

  37. The failure to use Zoom for his lectures is, actually, likely a major reason for the freak out, because it’s messing with the current med school study plan.

    First, for the obvious reasons: if you miss a class, or if you can’t get to the classroom because you’re sick or lazy, watching it online or recorded is something kids are just used to by now. It’s been 25 years since the internet hit, watching online lectures is what they’re used to.

    Second, there is a very strong movement amongst premeds and medical students to “take no notes” in classes and save time by watching lectures online. The system is like this: you do the reading for the class ahead of time, then log in after the lecture is over, set the video speed to 1.25 or 1.5 the normal rate, and just sit and listen without taking notes. You’re supposed to have done the reading ahead of time for the lecture, so you’re listening for anything the professor stresses or anything you don’t remember reading and jot that down quickly so you can review it.

    Basically, this system is designed to allow you to actively listen without stenography, and thereby catch vital things you missed or else what the professor is hinting will be on the test. Done correctly, it saves time and stress. A premed on the make would definitely be following this system, and for such a vital, weeding out, very difficult class like organic chemistry to not allow this must be a huge monkey wrench into many premed’s plans — and these kids are stressed to the max in college (out of all the majors, premed in American universities is the one where the kids must decide on Day 1 of their freshman year, and every premed class is both crucial and not easy; these kids are on the knife’s edge for four years).

    This professor seems to be old school, wanting facetime from the students and therefore not allowing remote learning. Its much like when students first started taking laptops to class in the 1990s and/or attempted to record lectures on video cassettes: a lot of older professors objected to the technology distracting from actual learning. Of course, the kids should have rolled with the punches here, but we do live in the age of “he who whines the most gets the cheese”, so….

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @R.G. Camara


    Basically, this system is designed to allow you to actively listen without stenography,
     
    This is what I did during my entire educational career. I never took notes. If you are taking notes you can't be processing what you are hearing. If I needed notes I would get them from someone else (I usually didn't). In law school this was very systematized where certain people would prepare and circulate detailed class outlines.

    The fact that the class is on Zoom doesn't change this at all. Of course some people have the memory retention of a flea so if they don't write it down it's not available for recall later. But you can't memorize something that you never processed to begin with. When you take notes what you are hearing goes directly from your ear to your hand without really going thru your higher processing facilities - you might as well be taking down Swahili phonetically.

    Replies: @Ganderson, @scrivener3

  38. @Jack D

    I sure don’t intend to learn any new technologies in the my 80s. I’ve barely used Zoom in my 60s.
     
    I think it's important to keep up with technology as part of keeping your mind agile. My later father in law was a gifted engineer but for some reason (long before he became truly senile) he could just never grasp computers, even simple stuff.

    I think at the end of his career he must have missed out on consulting work because the younger engineers must have seen him as a dinosaur - his analytical methods (although valid) were stuck in the slide rule era. In the old days they used a lot of rules of thumb and short cut methods because it wasn't practical to solve 1,000 equations to analyze one beam using a slide rule in order to get a precise answer. As a practical matter, you could simplify the problem and only solve ten or 20 equations and get a 95% accurate answer and then add in a safety factor and call it a day.

    Modern engineers think nothing of setting up a problem that requires you to solve 1,000 equations (0r even 1,000,000) because you aren't going to be sitting there with a slide rule and solving them one by one - you are going to feed the problem into a computer and press a button and zip, the computer will do all that boring repetitive math. And in this era of high materials cost and high fuel costs, having your axle or weigh 5% more than is necessary or your building use 5% more steel or whatever because you are using crude analytical techniques is just not acceptable.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    My father could repair just about anything, was an airfield rat fixing and flying planes at age 17 and became a known technical innovator in his professional field — but could never get the hang of personal computers. While still sharp at 80 it just was not in his nature to sit in front of a screen and type.

    My more on-topic thought here is just to wonder how all this would have played out if the professor was 54 or 64 instead of 84. And tenured, of course.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    @Known Fact

    There seems to be this misconception that mechanical aptitude and technological aptitude are one and the same. One uses kinesthetic intelligence, the other mathematical.

    Replies: @Known Fact

  39. @res

    An interesting question is whether a pay to play college like NYU has a greater or lesser Diversity Problem than richer colleges.
     
    They get dinged for diversity here, but not sure how they compare to "richer colleges."
    https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/new-york-university/student-life/diversity/

    They are working on it though.
    https://www.nyu.edu/life/global-inclusion-and-diversity/policies-and-reporting/university-data.html

    NYU in New York City has admitted the most diverse undergraduate (2023) class in history:

    African American students representing 12 percent and
    Latinx students representing 22 percent of those accepted.
     

    Replies: @Barnard

    NYU’s faculty is 68% and there is no breakout of the percentage of whites that are Jewish. The undergrad student body is 25% white, even if another 15% is white from the international student group that only gets it up to 40%. What does this website want, for every college to be half black?

  40. @Hypnotoad666

    And how hard should organic chemistry be anyway?
     
    This is the only relevant issue in this pseudo-controversy. (Along with the related issue of whether this old prof. made O-Chem harder than it should be).

    It's out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor.

    So, if academia has decided to make O-Chem into a form of hazing that bottlenecks access to med school, then I'd say the kids have a good point. (Although their beef may be more against this tradition than their particular geezer prof.).

    Leaving O-Chem aside, the bigger issue is how hard should it be to become a doctor? Make it too easy and people will die from malpractice. Make it too hard, and people will die from a lack of affordable medical care. A classic Type I vs Type II error conundrum. (Complicated of course by the fact that the supply of doctors also impacts their compensation.)

    I don't know if anyone has tackled this issue in a systematic cost-benefit way. But it's kind of important.

    P.S., Why don't they just grade the class on a normal curve and let the students sort themselves out?

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @stillCARealist, @Hibernian

    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor

    I really don’t know how you can say this. Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them –which is what organic chemistry teaches — is absolutely essential for every doctor. This is fundamental, because it will tell them things like which medications are going to interact poorly with the immune system or a patient or which implant is best. I certainly want a doctor who passed orgo, since I don’t want him giving me a prescription for a medication that will kill me.

    • Thanks: Hibernian
    • Replies: @Meretricious
    @R.G. Camara

    Dude, all you have to do is read the CONTRAINDICATIONS in the prescribing info (or the Drug Interactions)--LOL. No orgo needed

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    , @ic1000
    @R.G. Camara

    > Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them –which is what organic chemistry teaches — is absolutely essential for every doctor.

    Well, that's pretty true. That course is Biochemistry, which pre-meds and bio majors take as an undergrad, and then aspiring doctors cover at a deeper level in the first year of medical school. Like our bodies, biochem is big on proteins, nucleic acids, lipids, and carbohydrates; enzymatic reactions take the top billing.

    Organic chemistry is mostly about hydrocarbons -- totally on-target for e.g. a refinery. It's challenging because it builds on general chemistry, but requires a lot of both rote memorization and subtle understanding. E.g. I studied how a molecule with an ethyl adduct will behave in this situation, what can I deduce or analogize about a molecule with an isopropyl adduct?

    So the successful student has to be smart (good recall and visual-spatial ability), diligent/conscientious ("do all of the problem sets"), and willing to learn an abstract science. It's somewhat like learning a new language.

    And a few parts of it do have subject-area relevance for certain advanced fields in medicine.

    Commenters who point out that organic chemistry has been the classic weed-out or sorting class for pre-meds are right. Yes, the choice of subject is arbitrary. Longstanding questions in medical education have been "Is this the best class to serve this function?," "How hard should the class be?," "What should be the lowest acceptable grade?," and "Should there be a weed-out class at all?"

    In these regards, it's like a lot of other social issues having to do with limited resources and the "best" way to allocate them. 82 of Maitland Jones' 350 students have weighed in; clearly 82 of the coveted medical school seats should go to them.

    Their future patients could not be reached for comment.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Zero Philosopher

    , @Bill Jones
    @R.G. Camara

    I thought he was being satirical.

    , @Jack D
    @R.G. Camara

    No, what it really is is a highly g loaded subject, one that requires BOTH a lot of memorization AND a lot of ability to comprehend complex materials. Thus, people who are JUST grinds can't do it and people who are brilliant but lack Sitzfleisch can't do it either. It could just as well be ancient Greek or multivariable calculus. It has relatively little that has DIRECTLY to do with what doctors need to know (great course for chemical engineers though) but a lot that INDIRECTLY relates in that it taps the same skill sets that will be needed later on in med school.

    Replies: @Anon, @R.G. Camara

    , @Renter
    @R.G. Camara

    "Mechanism of action is poorly understood"

  41. @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    Another opportunity for my perennial question: "Is organic chemistry necessary for the study of medicine for a general practitioner, or is it simply a weeding out course as a barrier to entry into the medical profession?"

    Medical doctors I've asked this question tend to fall into the latter camp - it's just a science-y hoop to jump through to keep the numbers down.

    Replies: @prosa123

    Another opportunity for my perennial question: “Is organic chemistry necessary for the study of medicine for a general practitioner, or is it simply a weeding out course as a barrier to entry into the medical profession?”
    Medical doctors I’ve asked this question tend to fall into the latter camp – it’s just a science-y hoop to jump through to keep the numbers down.

    Chemistry and chemical engineering majors also have to take it, however the article seems to focus on just pre-med students.

    • Replies: @Meretricious
    @prosa123

    NO--organic chem has nothing to do with clinical medicine. It's used strictly as a gatekeeping mechanism (and it's a great one)

    Replies: @Graveldips

    , @fish
    @prosa123

    Chemistry and chemical engineering majors also have to take it, however the article seems to focus on just pre-med students.


    If I had to guess, the thought of not being able to practice woke medicine was so hateful to the petitioners that they felt that they owed it to society to speak out. The toobies and ChemE’s not so much.

    , @Frank the Prof
    @prosa123


    "Chemistry and chemical engineering majors also have to take it, however the article seems to focus on just pre-med students."
     
    At many universities pre-med organic is a different and often easier course. Chemistry and chem E's don't find it a difficult one either. For chemists the big hump is physical chemistry, which consists of thermodynamics, kinetics and quantum.
  42. @Altai
    The number of people who end up as doctors who can't handle molar calculations. You'd be scared.

    Replies: @Rob

    There’s a lot of room for verbal intelligence in medicine. I’d take a doctor with 140 verbal IQ and 100 mathematical* than the other way around.

    I realize that’s a huge gap, but I have a verbal/math and performance IQ gap that’s bigger than that. The psychiatrist who tested me said it was the biggest gap he’d seen absent a disability, like 100/60 is rare but does happen with brain damage.

    For a surgeon, visuospatial ability is really important, along with manual dexterity and and sometimes strength. Organic chemistry is really good for weeding out people without the first. I’ve heard orthopedic surgery residencies like athletes a lot.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Rob


    There’s a lot of room for verbal intelligence in medicine. I’d take a doctor with 140 verbal IQ and 100 mathematical* than the other way around.
     
    Within the last 10 years they've added a reading comprehension section on the MCAT (the exam you take to get into med school). Far from being easy, its actually quite difficult, because the passages given are extremely-dense technical analyses, but not in science topics (e.g. in art or music or law or literary criticism), so the kids reading it are unfamiliar with the topics. And this section is a full 1/4 of the exam score, so you can't just breeze through it. And surprisingly, among Canadian med schools, it is this reading comprehension section that is the #1 weighted factor. In other words, blow this section, and Canadian med schools won't look at you, even if you get a perfect score on the science sections.

    However, they haven't worked out all the bugs yet, since a lot of the time of the 4 multiple choice answers at least 2 can be argued to be "correct", so its really a judgment call about what the question-writer believed was truest. Given that medicine is, you know, about getting the one correct answer to fix the patient, this section needs to be shored up so that there clearly is one correct answer.

    I’ve heard orthopedic surgery residencies like athletes a lot.
     

    Orthopedic surgeons are the most bro-tastic of all surgeons. They're basically ex-jocks who either had the brains to go with the brawn, or were over-compensating athletes who tried to be Rudy's, or else got injured themselves (and thus got really into the minutia of the surgeries that fixed them). They basically compete on who can work the most hours and do the most complex surgeries. It's very alpha male/frat house. Lots of white guys chest bumping when they nail something.

    Replies: @Rob, @Paleo Liberal

    , @Dvnjbbgc
    @Rob

    Even if O-chem is just for pulling weeds, that’s a good thing. I’d rather have a doctor who passed it than one who didn’t; smarter is always better.

    As for the verbal/math gap, I’d rather have a doctor who isn’t like you (or me). I need a doctor who knows his material, and can solve problems. I don’t need him for witty banter, or poetry recitation,

    , @gabriel alberton
    @Rob


    For a surgeon, visuospatial ability is really important, along with manual dexterity and and sometimes strength. Organic chemistry is really good for weeding out people without the first.
     
    Mostly stereochemistry. To really weed out those without visuospatial ability, whatever they are studying for, there is crystallography.
  43. @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    "but boarding in NYU’s dorms is probably well below market rents for the area."

    It's actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Peterike, @kimchilover, @Anonymous, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    NYU, unfortunately, does not have a campus per se — there is no quad, no bucolic area that is clearly a “college”. Going to undergrad there is basically like going to grad school at any other college — no school spirit, no sense of belonging to a class, just a place to get a degree.

    Given its location deep in the Village, however, and the types students it attracts as a result, it never really needed one.

    • Replies: @Technite78
    @R.G. Camara


    NYU, unfortunately, does not have a campus per se — there is no quad, no bucolic area that is clearly a “college”.
     
    I think most NYU students would consider Washington Square Park their "quad/bucolic area". 10 years ago, it was sanitized of most crime and homelessness, and was a great area for students to hang out. Since the pandemic... homelessness, open drug use, prostitution, and violent crime have returned.

    Replies: @Hibernian

  44. How does one expect to “get a good enough grade to get in to med school” in organic chemistry without bothering to go to class?

    There must be a massive amount of cheating.

    This professor must be an interesting guy. Most people wouldn’t want to teach a weeder organic chemistry class in their 80s. Why didn’t he retire years ago? 2020 remote learning should have been the last straw. Did the department guilt him in to staying a few more years?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Not Raul

    Some faculty regard teaching (esp. intro undergrad courses) as a burden. Others regard it as their life's work. This guy literally wrote the book on Organic Chem. If he retired, what was he going to do? Watch soap operas?

    Replies: @BosTex

  45. @Muggles
    So if the good Professor was Jewish, a female/trans/gay or not White, he would still be employed?

    That is a good assumption.

    Alternative to firing him, they could offer flunked students a do-over course taught by someone else. See if the results are markedly different.

    One is tempted to assume that today's Gen Z students, addicted to screens, can't comprehend in class information. Or anything much else.

    Are these flunk=outs just stupid/lazy or is the prof here failing to teach them?

    From what he says it is likely that they are used to cramming and coasting, group study and faking using COVID as the generic excuse.

    Good luck with that brain surgery in 20 years. I probably won't be needing it...

    Replies: @Jack D, @Polistra, @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    Uh oh, you used the J word! Now you’re gonna get it.

    NB: try “tptb” — I don’t think he screens for that yet.

  46. My view is that while it’s natural to resent their cultural influence, hugely successful individuals like George Lucas and Martin Scorsese are, actually, on the whole, excellent human beings who have made our lives better

    Cringe.

  47. @Anonymous
    If you go to NYU you're paying top dollah for a shit education by downtrodden lumpenprole adjuncts, so you damn well better get good grades. NYU, like USC, gives you that faint dimwit trust fund asshole smell. Meritocratic institutions pore over the minutiae of your second-rate good housekeeping seal of approval, like grades. Coming from schools where you don't get the benefit of the doubt, you should stick to easy courses. Like alkaline hydrolysis is a lot harder than blowing Petraeus for As.

    Replies: @Polistra

    NYU, like USC, gives you that faint dimwit trust fund asshole smell.

    LOL…can confirm…

  48. About a decade ago, he said in an interview, he noticed a loss of focus among the students, even as more of them enrolled in his class, hoping to pursue medical careers. …

    “Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,”

    Because they are getting dumber, year by year, Flynn effect notwithstanding. Each yearly cohort is a new generation. Gradually slipping under the waves of cognitive stress, and there is nothing anybody can do about it.

  49. In other life and death decisions The Fake Joe Biden is going to run again.
    We know it must be true because Al Sharpton says so.

    https://www.rt.com/news/564012-biden-2024-sharpton-us/

  50. @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Paleo Liberal


    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.
     
    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive. A lot of formerly commuter-oriented schools generated cash flow by building dormitories and requiring on-campus living but boarding in NYU's dorms is probably well below market rents for the area.

    Of course, it could solve two problems at once by selling all of its real estate and decamping to an outer borough with more abundant, cheaper land but then it wouldn't really be NYU anymore, would it? I think a big part of its draw for a lot of students originating from elsewhere is getting to live in Lower Manhattan in one's late teens and early twenties. Take that away and it's just another boring but expensive University.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Technite78, @Anonymous

    NYU has gradually been buying up real estate in The East Village/NoLiTa/NoHo. Some years ago, it bought the building that used to be the Tower Records video store, and over 10 years or so turned it into the “Student Link Center”… it’s very nice.

    https://www.nyu.edu/students/student-information-and-resources/student-centers-and-spaces/studentlink-center.html

  51. @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    "but boarding in NYU’s dorms is probably well below market rents for the area."

    It's actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Peterike, @kimchilover, @Anonymous, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    It’s actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    That is, essentially, the entire reason NYU exists. So rich kids from around the world can hook up, get high and party for four years. NYU has been buying up properties like crazy in the West Village, even turning some beautiful pre-war apartments into dorms.

    They are also spending a billion dollars to build this monstrosity on what used to be some tennis courts and a gym.

  52. @War for Blair Mountain
    The Putnam Exam is fucking hard….but how hard can Organic Chemistry be outside of memorization? Can’t they take some kind of jelly fish abstract? Or drink the blue blood of that weird looking Horseshoe crab from the North East of America…?

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @War for Blair Mountain, @The Wobbly Guy, @That Would Be Telling

    Should read:‘jelly fish extract….”

  53. @Technite78
    NYU's Brooklyn campus is where the action is:

    NYU students urged to ‘run, hide or fight’ as shots ring out near Brooklyn campus

     

    (This is actually the site of the former Polytechnic Institute of New York, my alma mater, now the Tandon School of Engineering since its absorption by NYU)

    https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/shots-fired-at-brooklyn-metrotech-center/

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Polistra

    The irony being that when NYU sold its old Bronx campus they promised to never have an engineering program again. Somehow buying Poly released them of that promise.

    • Replies: @Inverness
    @Paleo Liberal

    That "old Bronx campus" had some stunning neoclassical buildings! Too bad about the location. I'm sure it was quite pleasant a hundred years ago.


    https://untappedcities.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/New-York-University-Gould-Memorial-Library-Bronx-Community-Collge-NYC-2.jpg

    Replies: @Ralph L, @prosa123, @Hibernian

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Paleo Liberal

    Why would they need to make such a promise in the first place?

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

  54. @Technite78
    NYU's Brooklyn campus is where the action is:

    NYU students urged to ‘run, hide or fight’ as shots ring out near Brooklyn campus

     

    (This is actually the site of the former Polytechnic Institute of New York, my alma mater, now the Tandon School of Engineering since its absorption by NYU)

    https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/shots-fired-at-brooklyn-metrotech-center/

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Polistra

    NYU students urged to ‘run, hide or fight’ as shots ring out

    Yeah, I saw that too. Q: Has anyone thought to ask NYU administration exactly what they meant by that tweet?

    • Replies: @Peterike
    @Polistra


    NYU students urged to ‘run, hide or fight’ as shots ring out

     

    Yeah, I saw that too. Q: Has anyone thought to ask NYU administration exactly what they meant by that tweet?

    I guess they meant something like this:

    Run: for office! Only by claiming power can we put an end to systemic racism.

    Hide: from white supremacists! They are everywhere, and very dangerous.

    Fight: against white supremacy and systemic racism!
    , @Technite78
    @Polistra

    I haven't seen any explanation; and I don't think I've seen that advice before with respect to an "active shooter" situation (although this was more likely some kind of gang incident).

    Maybe they still have an active ROTC program? /sarc

    , @Charlotte
    @Polistra

    It’s the standard advice for dealing with an active shooter situation: run away if you can, hide if you can’t run, and fight if you can’t hide.

    Replies: @Polistra

  55. One thing to keep in mind:

    Back in the 20th Century I had a lot of inside information about what was going on in the science departments of various colleges in NYC. Every once in a while The NY Times would write an article about some situation. They often missed the most important points, and were sometimes just plain wrong.

    One time their science writer interviewed me after some people told her I had some important information. She misquoted me in a front page article in the Times. Fortunately a respected professor set up a meeting so I could explain and unruffle some feathers. Not one person I have met who has been interviewed by reporters was even slightly surprised.

    • Agree: slumber_j
    • Replies: @Inverness
    @Paleo Liberal

    Cf: Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect.

  56. @prime noticer
    "About a decade ago, he said in an interview, he noticed a loss of focus among the students"

    Obama being re-elected signaled that the old WASP America was officially over, and the new America 2.0 had begun.

    the amount of datapoints on this stuff is overwhelming. we don't need to keep asking over and over what changed around the 2011 to 2014 time frame. things visibly went nuts in a dramatic acceleration of all the crazy stuff that had up until then been slowly increasing.

    the leftist takeover began in earnest in the mid 60s and moved on a slow and steady path until 2012, when it became ascendant. then the communist faction of the D party really asserted itself and began to remake America openly. Obama himself was a communist, born to communists, platformed by communists, and managed by communists.

    the current Biden-Harris administration is openly communist and literally staffed by several bolshevik communist descendents. they have trouble not running their mouths in public about their cultural marxist beliefs. why wouldn't they? they're in control now. Republican politicians are weak, defeated cowards who won't resist.

    Replies: @Meretricious

    “Obama being re-elected signaled that the old WASP America was officially over”

    I like that quote but I’d substitute “meritocratic” for “old WASP.” The key to understanding Barack Obama’s rise is to realize just how far affirmative action can lift up black mediocrities like Obama, which is why I dubbed him ‘Affirmative Action Barry’

    • Replies: @Celt Darnell
    @Meretricious

    Yup. Affirmative Action was bad enough when only 10% of the population could benefit from it (and even then, it wasn’t applied to positions of consequence).

    When around 40% of the population becomes eligible for affirmative action, it’s game over.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

  57. stillCARealist [AKA "ForeverCARealist"] says:
    @AKAHorace
    Pre-med students are driven. Just not always in ethical ways. Eat your vegetables everyone.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

    Good comment. I noticed this in the 80’s with my classmates who were determined to get to medical school even if they knew they didn’t have the academic chops.

    If this particular TA won’t give me an A, then I want a new section!
    I’m more likely to have an A average if I major in history, not molecular biology!

    The number of those kids who did go to med school was much lower than those who claimed to be on their way to it. The accepted were all Jewish, Asian or Indian (and good for them).

    • Replies: @AKAHorace
    @stillCARealist


    Good comment. I noticed this in the 80’s with my classmates who were determined to get to medical school even if they knew they didn’t have the academic chops.

    If this particular TA won’t give me an A, then I want a new section!
    I’m more likely to have an A average if I major in history, not molecular biology!
     
    It has actually gotten worse as Medical schools now look at extra curricular things. So
    you have pre-meds signing up for clubs and sports that they are not interested in and struggling
    to become club president. There are also cases of pre meds getting into charities and then
    doing the bare minimum so that they look as if they are altruists.
  58. Many of the men in my family studied chemical engineering, of which organic chemistry was a required class. It was famous from generation to generation for being the most difficult course for the entire degree, a course that would weed out those not intelligent or diligent enough to be engineers (or doctors, but I always understood ochem in the context of chemical engineering more than premed since there wasn’t a “premed” major at my university). My relatives would tell me that that was the class which would drastically reduce the number of chemical engineering students by junior year.

    It seems a lot of this is the result of people who can’t cope with the difficulty of that specific STEM class, and in prior days it would be a sign for those students to either find a less rigorous major that is still premed track or give up their dreams of being a doctor/engineer. I know we’ll never get it, but I’d love to see the demographic breakdown of who signed the petition. I imagine that there probably aren’t many White or Asian men who signed it, but certain “entitled” demographics were probably outraged that #blackgirlmagic didn’t magically pass them.

  59. @dearieme
    In my experience (a million years ago) attending lectures on Organic Chemistry was deadly dull. On t'other hand doing the corresponding synthesis lab was great fun. Since I thrived in that lab I must assume that some of the content of the dismal lectures had lodged in my brain.

    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn't have been based simply on directed reading and lab work. But my classmates insisted that lectures were necessary. I suspect they were right, but why? Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?

    Replies: @fish, @Dave from Oz, @Reg Cæsar, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @PhysicistDave, @Rob

    No….I think you’re on to something. I don’t remember a single second of the lab but I do remember the lecture portion…. vaguely. I think a front loaded lab section with a concise trailing lecture discussing the how and why of the lab would have been vastly more helpful!

  60. Should universities ease pressure on students, many of whom are still coping with the pandemic’s effects on their mental health and schooling?

    This is world-class Tommy-rot. Sitting at home or in a dorm room and looking at a computer screen somehow throws off a generation which spends roughly 80% of its time staring at… computer and phone screens? Mental health? “This studying stuff makes me sad!” Ya think?

    The problem is – well, there are several problems – this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: Having an emotional meltdown will help me pass organic chemistry? One emotional meltdown, coming up!

    What’s infuriating is that these “news” outlets are such enablers. Gee, could there possibly be, I dunno, a conflict of interest in asking black kids if they might prefer an advantage in getting into exclusive colleges, or if college kids in general might prefer to have easier courses or harder courses? Hmmmm.

    It’s complicated!

    But George Floyd and the pandemic! That explains everything!

  61. @Paleo Liberal
    One thing to keep in mind:

    Back in the 20th Century I had a lot of inside information about what was going on in the science departments of various colleges in NYC. Every once in a while The NY Times would write an article about some situation. They often missed the most important points, and were sometimes just plain wrong.

    One time their science writer interviewed me after some people told her I had some important information. She misquoted me in a front page article in the Times. Fortunately a respected professor set up a meeting so I could explain and unruffle some feathers. Not one person I have met who has been interviewed by reporters was even slightly surprised.

    Replies: @Inverness

    Cf: Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect.

  62. stillCARealist [AKA "ForeverCARealist"] says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    And how hard should organic chemistry be anyway?
     
    This is the only relevant issue in this pseudo-controversy. (Along with the related issue of whether this old prof. made O-Chem harder than it should be).

    It's out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor.

    So, if academia has decided to make O-Chem into a form of hazing that bottlenecks access to med school, then I'd say the kids have a good point. (Although their beef may be more against this tradition than their particular geezer prof.).

    Leaving O-Chem aside, the bigger issue is how hard should it be to become a doctor? Make it too easy and people will die from malpractice. Make it too hard, and people will die from a lack of affordable medical care. A classic Type I vs Type II error conundrum. (Complicated of course by the fact that the supply of doctors also impacts their compensation.)

    I don't know if anyone has tackled this issue in a systematic cost-benefit way. But it's kind of important.

    P.S., Why don't they just grade the class on a normal curve and let the students sort themselves out?

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @stillCARealist, @Hibernian

    The concepts are quite important to understand as you move on to bigger systems. Do you really want a doc who is ignorant about the chemistry behind what they’re prescribing?

    And it’s not really that hard. You just have to apply yourself and put in the work. LOTS of questions for the TA’s and sharper students. LOTS of review of the problem sets. These days with the internet you can probably find old exam questions galore to practice.

    I’m only of middling smarts/diligence and I got through it.

    • Agree: Hibernian
  63. @prosa123
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Another opportunity for my perennial question: “Is organic chemistry necessary for the study of medicine for a general practitioner, or is it simply a weeding out course as a barrier to entry into the medical profession?”
    Medical doctors I’ve asked this question tend to fall into the latter camp – it’s just a science-y hoop to jump through to keep the numbers down.


    Chemistry and chemical engineering majors also have to take it, however the article seems to focus on just pre-med students.

    Replies: @Meretricious, @fish, @Frank the Prof

    NO–organic chem has nothing to do with clinical medicine. It’s used strictly as a gatekeeping mechanism (and it’s a great one)

    • Replies: @Graveldips
    @Meretricious

    What do you call the dumbest graduate of medical school? Doctor. Gatekeeping is good, it keeps the marginal cases out. If you'e going to be rooting around in my innards, I want you to be overqualified.

  64. apologies if already posted, but it’s related:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11272437/George-Washington-University-professor-canceled-enraging-class-n-word-discussion.html

    George Washington University human rights professor, 72, who’s ex-CIA analyst is CANCELED after he enraged woke students by saying N-word should be banned in rap

  65. does anyone have a link to NYU’s online videos?

    here is a 2009 UC Irvine organic chem class

    (btw the MIT OCW Sadoway Chemistry class is excellent)

    perhaps we should pass a CA state proposition that all publicly funded universities have to post up -to-date online classes so that the taxpayers can benefit from what they paid for? Hopefully, the CA Supreme Ct wont strike down such a proposition after it passes

  66. @Paleo Liberal
    @Technite78

    The irony being that when NYU sold its old Bronx campus they promised to never have an engineering program again. Somehow buying Poly released them of that promise.

    Replies: @Inverness, @ScarletNumber

    That “old Bronx campus” had some stunning neoclassical buildings! Too bad about the location. I’m sure it was quite pleasant a hundred years ago.

    • Replies: @Ralph L
    @Inverness

    I believe that's a Stanford White design.

    , @prosa123
    @Inverness

    One feature of the old Bronx campus is the Hall of Fame of Great Americans, a collection of about 100 busts of US historical figures. Bronx Community College now owns the campus and the HoF and has quite an inconsistent policy on visiting the latter. Although it's ostensibly open to visitors during specified hours the guards at the campus gate sometimes turn away people for no reason.

    , @Hibernian
    @Inverness

    There were once estates in the Bronx, still are (small ones) in Riverdale. That campus originally was one. Another one was owned by William B. Ogden, native of a town in the Catskills, who had made his fortune in Chicago as the main promoter of the Chicago and Northwestrn Railroad. (Now part of the Union Pacific.)

  67. @Polistra
    @Technite78


    NYU students urged to ‘run, hide or fight’ as shots ring out
     
    Yeah, I saw that too. Q: Has anyone thought to ask NYU administration exactly what they meant by that tweet?

    Replies: @Peterike, @Technite78, @Charlotte

    NYU students urged to ‘run, hide or fight’ as shots ring out

    Yeah, I saw that too. Q: Has anyone thought to ask NYU administration exactly what they meant by that tweet?

    I guess they meant something like this:

    Run: for office! Only by claiming power can we put an end to systemic racism.

    Hide: from white supremacists! They are everywhere, and very dangerous.

    Fight: against white supremacy and systemic racism!

    • Thanks: Polistra
  68. @R.G. Camara
    @Hypnotoad666


    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor
     
    I really don't know how you can say this. Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them --which is what organic chemistry teaches -- is absolutely essential for every doctor. This is fundamental, because it will tell them things like which medications are going to interact poorly with the immune system or a patient or which implant is best. I certainly want a doctor who passed orgo, since I don't want him giving me a prescription for a medication that will kill me.

    Replies: @Meretricious, @ic1000, @Bill Jones, @Jack D, @Renter

    Dude, all you have to do is read the CONTRAINDICATIONS in the prescribing info (or the Drug Interactions)–LOL. No orgo needed

    • Disagree: Hibernian
    • Troll: R.G. Camara
    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Meretricious

    Please tell me you're joking.

  69. Anon[146] • Disclaimer says:

    Organic chemistry is not hard to reason your way through. The problem is, it requires massive amounts of memorization. In anything even remotely connected to the biological sciences these days, the demand on your memory is massive. It’s getting to the point where only really gifted students are going to be the ones passing the premed courses. But then again, no one who isn’t gifted has any business being a doctor.

    Blacks and Hispanics just don’t have the biological programming to acquire massive amounts of information and retain it the way whites do.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Anon


    Blacks and Hispanics just don’t have the biological programming to acquire massive amounts of information and retain it the way whites do.
     
    Why didn’t you capitalize Whites?
    , @R.G. Camara
    @Anon


    Organic chemistry is not hard to reason your way through. The problem is, it requires massive amounts of memorization. In anything even remotely connected to the biological sciences these days, the demand on your memory is massive.
     
    The popular flash card programs currently available for computers/cellphones are, actually, kind of a new hack of memory, since they not only allow you to make flashcards you can take on the go, but they also space the repetition of them out at set intervals that correspond to most memory studies. Thus, if you're doing your daily review, they'll keep them hidden for a week, spring them on you, then wait 2 weeks, etc. This aids kids who might not know which flash cards to review when, or might not want to bring a whole pack with them on the go. So maybe premed programs are having to adjust to the fact that grinder students are getting better at memorization.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  70. @Polistra
    @Technite78


    NYU students urged to ‘run, hide or fight’ as shots ring out
     
    Yeah, I saw that too. Q: Has anyone thought to ask NYU administration exactly what they meant by that tweet?

    Replies: @Peterike, @Technite78, @Charlotte

    I haven’t seen any explanation; and I don’t think I’ve seen that advice before with respect to an “active shooter” situation (although this was more likely some kind of gang incident).

    Maybe they still have an active ROTC program? /sarc

  71. @R.G. Camara
    The failure to use Zoom for his lectures is, actually, likely a major reason for the freak out, because it's messing with the current med school study plan.

    First, for the obvious reasons: if you miss a class, or if you can't get to the classroom because you're sick or lazy, watching it online or recorded is something kids are just used to by now. It's been 25 years since the internet hit, watching online lectures is what they're used to.

    Second, there is a very strong movement amongst premeds and medical students to "take no notes" in classes and save time by watching lectures online. The system is like this: you do the reading for the class ahead of time, then log in after the lecture is over, set the video speed to 1.25 or 1.5 the normal rate, and just sit and listen without taking notes. You're supposed to have done the reading ahead of time for the lecture, so you're listening for anything the professor stresses or anything you don't remember reading and jot that down quickly so you can review it.

    Basically, this system is designed to allow you to actively listen without stenography, and thereby catch vital things you missed or else what the professor is hinting will be on the test. Done correctly, it saves time and stress. A premed on the make would definitely be following this system, and for such a vital, weeding out, very difficult class like organic chemistry to not allow this must be a huge monkey wrench into many premed's plans -- and these kids are stressed to the max in college (out of all the majors, premed in American universities is the one where the kids must decide on Day 1 of their freshman year, and every premed class is both crucial and not easy; these kids are on the knife's edge for four years).

    This professor seems to be old school, wanting facetime from the students and therefore not allowing remote learning. Its much like when students first started taking laptops to class in the 1990s and/or attempted to record lectures on video cassettes: a lot of older professors objected to the technology distracting from actual learning. Of course, the kids should have rolled with the punches here, but we do live in the age of "he who whines the most gets the cheese", so....

    Replies: @Jack D

    Basically, this system is designed to allow you to actively listen without stenography,

    This is what I did during my entire educational career. I never took notes. If you are taking notes you can’t be processing what you are hearing. If I needed notes I would get them from someone else (I usually didn’t). In law school this was very systematized where certain people would prepare and circulate detailed class outlines.

    The fact that the class is on Zoom doesn’t change this at all. Of course some people have the memory retention of a flea so if they don’t write it down it’s not available for recall later. But you can’t memorize something that you never processed to begin with. When you take notes what you are hearing goes directly from your ear to your hand without really going thru your higher processing facilities – you might as well be taking down Swahili phonetically.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
    • Replies: @Ganderson
    @Jack D

    I only took notes to help me stay awake.

    Re: online classes- online can be a good way to learn stuff that you really want to learn- not so good for required classes. I’d also add that there’s nothing like a really good lecturer spinning his (mostly his) yarns in person, but for the average run of college professors it probably doesn’t matter whether it’s live or if it’s Memorex.

    As an aside, I used to teach AP US History (to high schoolers) online, and was surprised to notice that the pupils’ exam scores were way higher in the online section than my f2f (a little remote education lingo) classes. I realized, after “chatting” with a few of the on-liners that they mostly took the class as a review!


    Oh, and in my last year of teaching high school I was called to the principal’s office because my grades were too low.

    My reputation among the students was “take Ganderson’s class if you don’t care about getting an ‘A’ “

    , @scrivener3
    @Jack D

    Plus one. your advice should be given to every student entering college.

    I was the typical scribbler of notes in college but before going to law school I bought a book about how to succeed in law school. The guy said most students even when reading the cases before class try to write the case (take accurate notes). He said just read the case as fast as you can to get what is going on. then read the case again more carefully - don't write anything down. Then read the case again - on the third time you probably think entirely differently about the case than in the first reading. On the third reading you really understand the case.

    By the time I got to the Socratic discussion of the case, I knew more about it than 90% of the students.

    If you just trust yourself you will remember everything significant about the case if you once truly understand it. Now law school readings are relatively short, the old cases are remarkably compressed and short so reading the assignment three times was doable, but the concept applies everywhere. Really read, really listen, you will remember what you need or a few jots like two sentences will be enough to bring back the facts and the reasoning if you knew it.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  72. NYU joke from an old Woody Allen movie:

    at 2:00

    • Replies: @VivaLaMigra
    @International Jew

    Speaking of Mailer, I tried wading through Mailer's "The Naked and the Dead." I think it was made into a movie at one time; no doubt the screenwriters had to shit-can more than half the book, just as they did with "From Here to Eternity" in the 50's.

  73. @Not Raul
    How does one expect to “get a good enough grade to get in to med school” in organic chemistry without bothering to go to class?

    There must be a massive amount of cheating.

    This professor must be an interesting guy. Most people wouldn’t want to teach a weeder organic chemistry class in their 80s. Why didn’t he retire years ago? 2020 remote learning should have been the last straw. Did the department guilt him in to staying a few more years?

    Replies: @Jack D

    Some faculty regard teaching (esp. intro undergrad courses) as a burden. Others regard it as their life’s work. This guy literally wrote the book on Organic Chem. If he retired, what was he going to do? Watch soap operas?

    • Agree: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @BosTex
    @Jack D

    Nah. He’ll get a job elsewhere, pretty quick.

    This is still a damn disgrace. No one has a right to
    pass a course. Maitland Jones sounds like a hell of a good teacher.

    I think we need to take the stigma out of being weeded out.

    Frankly there is no shame in it. Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.

    I work in a job with a ton of failure (sales). I want to discover likely failures: right away. It lets me focus on where I might succeed.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @PhysicistDave

  74. Never considered the significance of organic chem in the fortunes of premed students. Nevertheless, one needn’t be a science major to understand why it would be. Indeed, it would seem to be the single most important undergrad course that any aspiring medical student could ever take.

    Anyone who washes out in organic chem had better consider another line of work.

  75. @R.G. Camara
    @Steve Sailer

    NYU, unfortunately, does not have a campus per se -- there is no quad, no bucolic area that is clearly a "college". Going to undergrad there is basically like going to grad school at any other college -- no school spirit, no sense of belonging to a class, just a place to get a degree.

    Given its location deep in the Village, however, and the types students it attracts as a result, it never really needed one.

    Replies: @Technite78

    NYU, unfortunately, does not have a campus per se — there is no quad, no bucolic area that is clearly a “college”.

    I think most NYU students would consider Washington Square Park their “quad/bucolic area”. 10 years ago, it was sanitized of most crime and homelessness, and was a great area for students to hang out. Since the pandemic… homelessness, open drug use, prostitution, and violent crime have returned.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Technite78

    A lot of urban Unis, mostly Catholic, have small campuses with mini-quads. Not sure if University of Illinois / Chicago has one. De Paul, Loyola, and the U of C do; U of C also has a lot of old buildings on the north side of a very wide City owned boulevard. (This includes the buildings on the south side of the quad.) Increasingly there have been new buildings on the south side of the boulevard (Midway Plaisance) since the Law School established itself there in the '50s or '60s.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

  76. AMZN sells the 2000 AD version of his textbook

    • Thanks: fish
  77. @R.G. Camara
    @Hypnotoad666


    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor
     
    I really don't know how you can say this. Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them --which is what organic chemistry teaches -- is absolutely essential for every doctor. This is fundamental, because it will tell them things like which medications are going to interact poorly with the immune system or a patient or which implant is best. I certainly want a doctor who passed orgo, since I don't want him giving me a prescription for a medication that will kill me.

    Replies: @Meretricious, @ic1000, @Bill Jones, @Jack D, @Renter

    > Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them –which is what organic chemistry teaches — is absolutely essential for every doctor.

    Well, that’s pretty true. That course is Biochemistry, which pre-meds and bio majors take as an undergrad, and then aspiring doctors cover at a deeper level in the first year of medical school. Like our bodies, biochem is big on proteins, nucleic acids, lipids, and carbohydrates; enzymatic reactions take the top billing.

    Organic chemistry is mostly about hydrocarbons — totally on-target for e.g. a refinery. It’s challenging because it builds on general chemistry, but requires a lot of both rote memorization and subtle understanding. E.g. I studied how a molecule with an ethyl adduct will behave in this situation, what can I deduce or analogize about a molecule with an isopropyl adduct?

    So the successful student has to be smart (good recall and visual-spatial ability), diligent/conscientious (“do all of the problem sets”), and willing to learn an abstract science. It’s somewhat like learning a new language.

    And a few parts of it do have subject-area relevance for certain advanced fields in medicine.

    Commenters who point out that organic chemistry has been the classic weed-out or sorting class for pre-meds are right. Yes, the choice of subject is arbitrary. Longstanding questions in medical education have been “Is this the best class to serve this function?,” “How hard should the class be?,” “What should be the lowest acceptable grade?,” and “Should there be a weed-out class at all?”

    In these regards, it’s like a lot of other social issues having to do with limited resources and the “best” way to allocate them. 82 of Maitland Jones’ 350 students have weighed in; clearly 82 of the coveted medical school seats should go to them.

    Their future patients could not be reached for comment.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @ic1000

    Don't you think Organic Chemistry might be the foundation for Biochemistry? Sure, the immediate applications were in Chemical Engineering.

    Replies: @ic1000

    , @Zero Philosopher
    @ic1000

    "Organic chemistry is mostly about hydrocarbons — totally on-target for e.g. a refinery."

    This is one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read. Biochemists working at refineries? Wow. Do you have a working brain?

    Replies: @AKAHorace, @Hibernian

  78. @Rob
    @Altai

    There’s a lot of room for verbal intelligence in medicine. I’d take a doctor with 140 verbal IQ and 100 mathematical* than the other way around.

    I realize that’s a huge gap, but I have a verbal/math and performance IQ gap that’s bigger than that. The psychiatrist who tested me said it was the biggest gap he’d seen absent a disability, like 100/60 is rare but does happen with brain damage.

    For a surgeon, visuospatial ability is really important, along with manual dexterity and and sometimes strength. Organic chemistry is really good for weeding out people without the first. I’ve heard orthopedic surgery residencies like athletes a lot.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Dvnjbbgc, @gabriel alberton

    There’s a lot of room for verbal intelligence in medicine. I’d take a doctor with 140 verbal IQ and 100 mathematical* than the other way around.

    Within the last 10 years they’ve added a reading comprehension section on the MCAT (the exam you take to get into med school). Far from being easy, its actually quite difficult, because the passages given are extremely-dense technical analyses, but not in science topics (e.g. in art or music or law or literary criticism), so the kids reading it are unfamiliar with the topics. And this section is a full 1/4 of the exam score, so you can’t just breeze through it. And surprisingly, among Canadian med schools, it is this reading comprehension section that is the #1 weighted factor. In other words, blow this section, and Canadian med schools won’t look at you, even if you get a perfect score on the science sections.

    However, they haven’t worked out all the bugs yet, since a lot of the time of the 4 multiple choice answers at least 2 can be argued to be “correct”, so its really a judgment call about what the question-writer believed was truest. Given that medicine is, you know, about getting the one correct answer to fix the patient, this section needs to be shored up so that there clearly is one correct answer.

    I’ve heard orthopedic surgery residencies like athletes a lot.

    Orthopedic surgeons are the most bro-tastic of all surgeons. They’re basically ex-jocks who either had the brains to go with the brawn, or were over-compensating athletes who tried to be Rudy’s, or else got injured themselves (and thus got really into the minutia of the surgeries that fixed them). They basically compete on who can work the most hours and do the most complex surgeries. It’s very alpha male/frat house. Lots of white guys chest bumping when they nail something.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @R.G. Camara

    Re; Canadian schools weighing verbal heavily.

    There’s a ton of reading in medicine. To top that, vocabulary is the top (top 2?) subtext that correlates best with g. It might be possible to cram one’s way to perfect scores on the bio bases of behavior (bet they don’t cover the breeder’s equation!) or science sections, but memorizing enough to nail the verbal part is a Rainman-tier feat.

    , @Paleo Liberal
    @R.G. Camara

    I’ve heard that orthopedic surgeons take out insurance on their hands. A high percentage get injured during their residency. Not sure why

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

  79. @Kaz
    I can't imagine taking proper classes remotely and learning.

    I'm self motivated and able to teach myself now, but as 2nd year college student? I would get slaughtered in a course like organic chemistry without in-person instruction.

    Replies: @Houston 1992

    hmm try the Sadoway class MIT OCW.

    btw there is some very specific feedback on what Jones might have been doing wrong.
    https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1052652

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Houston 1992


    btw there is some very specific feedback on what Jones might have been doing wrong.
    https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1052652
     
    They're not useful. I've read the whole set of student reviews of a MIT professor who completely blew teaching a course outside of his specialty that he nonetheless understands and cares about along with caring very much about teaching well, then listened in an adjacent office as the department sat him down and made him read every one and then tell him he'd never be allowed to teach the course again (MIT really cares about undergraduate education and being an adequate instructor is required to get tenure).

    These reviews are all over the place, although there may be some false ones, I read too many that fit a template of "I was playing [varying] video game during the real time lectures, but the book etc. was fine to learn the material." They're what you'd expect from an inherently tough subject for which a large fraction simply don't have what it takes, as we've been told from NYU being a premier premed school that nonetheless weeds out a lot of those on that track.

    And if every lecture makes you cry, you're definitely not got what's required to be a life and death doctor, what will you did when you lose patients? What when that's because you made an acceptable but tragic mistake?

    Since the textbook is his writing, its the same as listening to his lectures.
     
    That's clearly not the case unless he'd suffered enough age induced cognitive decline for that and some of the other claimed bad behavior drove some of this 2022 debacle that ended with his being fired.

    Turns out I learned first term under a professor who was the coauthor of the book, the other author was instead of research one a premed oriented one at a selective but much less college. I assure you a good lecturer can do a lot better than repeat what's in his book. My favorite anecdote he related was about a chemical plant using the pot method that suddenly had their yields of a product go to hell. They couldn't figure out what was going on and finally resorted to 24x7 video camera surveillance. Which revealed a janitorial type was relieving himself into the "pot."

    Obviously this wouldn't be interesting except for the fact that guy was getting old and working fewer nights and the bad yields happened when he didn't do this. Something in his urine complexed with a contaminant and allowed it to be removed, the company's problem was that they didn't fully understand the real process they were using to make it.

    And he otherwise augmented and helped us understand the material that again was pretty much all in his book, which circumstances forced me to learn alone from for the end of the semester. Note though I'm not a representative example for the body of students who take organic and especially the premeds, was science track and am both a wordcel and shape-rotator.

    Replies: @Rob, @Anon, @James B. Shearer

  80. This makes the argument for separating the grader from the instructor.
    It’s possible that he was not as good of an instructor at 84 than he was at 64. But you really can’t compare course performance between instructors because they typically use different measurement tools (their own tests) to assign grades.
    But if you had something like an AP test for College Organic Chem, you could not only compare instructors within the same school, you could compare instructors between schools as well.
    And if you can bring in additional information, like SAT/ACT scores, AP test scores, etc, you could then control for cognitive ability.

    The real reason for this, though, should be to fight grade inflation. It really has gotten out of hand.

    http://www.gradeinflation.com

    • Replies: @tr
    @Half Canadian


    But if you had something like an AP test for College Organic Chem, you could not only compare instructors within the same school, you could compare instructors between schools as well.
     
    Like these? https://uwm.edu/acs-exams/instructors/assessment-materials/exams/
  81. @R.G. Camara
    @Hypnotoad666


    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor
     
    I really don't know how you can say this. Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them --which is what organic chemistry teaches -- is absolutely essential for every doctor. This is fundamental, because it will tell them things like which medications are going to interact poorly with the immune system or a patient or which implant is best. I certainly want a doctor who passed orgo, since I don't want him giving me a prescription for a medication that will kill me.

    Replies: @Meretricious, @ic1000, @Bill Jones, @Jack D, @Renter

    I thought he was being satirical.

  82. Anon[313] • Disclaimer says:

    The cover of the 5th edition appropriately enough shows a somewhat chubby white girl drawing a stick diagram with an indian girl and asian man looking on, judgingly. (Both authors appear to be white men though.)

    The advice from the foreword is:

    1. Work with a pencil
    2. Don’t memorize
    3. Work in groups
    4. Work the problems
    5. Use all the resources available to you

    Just reading that is like exhausting.

  83. @JimB
    In most colleges, organic chem is graded on a steep curve with a B-/C+ median, so in schools with a 1520 SAT average, many students take organic chemistry during summer session at a local junior college to guarantee getting at least an A-. You’d have to be a real glutton for punishment to take it from a world renowned chemistry teacher who has written a 1200 page textbook and emphasizes problem solving over rote memorization.

    Replies: @Houston 1992

    I think med school admission committees look very closely to see where, what school etc one earned one’s Organic Chem grades. A summer school class in a junior college wont impress the committees.

    Many schools also publish a grade pareto analysis i.e. how many earned A;’s, B;s etc in that class

    • Replies: @JimB
    @Houston 1992


    I think med school admission committees look very closely to see where, what school etc one earned one’s Organic Chem grades.
     
    I concur, but if you are a Harvard undergraduate weak in science, you are better off with an A- in OC from Bowling Green Junior college than a C+ from Harvard. With your unprestigious A- you might still get into Thomas Jefferson or Duke. But with a C+, I doubt you could even get into Rutgers. You’d end up having to attend some Med school in the Caribbean.
  84. Organic chemistry is an insanely difficult course. Lots of these kids are used to getting A+/4.0 GPAs their entire life. So it’s a shock when they get a B/3.0 in tough college classes.

    You have to remember that different universities often have WILDLY different standards for grading. Some universities will give A+/4.0 grades to the majority of students in a class, while other universities set the curve at B/3.0 (sometimes even lower a B-/2.7).

    When you try to get your first job, employers will scrutinize your GPA. If you apply to graduate school (MD, DDS, MBA, etc), employers will HEAVILY scrutinize your GPA.

    So one bad O-Chem grade can often mean the difference between becoming a $200K/yr doctor and becoming a $70K/yr lab assistant.

    It makes sense for these students to be taking advantage of the situation to lower grading standards. If anything, I’m surprised that this didn’t happen decades ago.

    Lots of prestigious Ivy League universities actually grade surprisingly easy. So it’s not surprising that these kids, who are high-achieving and often have elite parents, want the same privilege.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @JohnnyWalker123


    You have to remember that different universities often have WILDLY different standards for grading. Some universities will give A+/4.0 grades to the majority of students in a class, while other universities set the curve at B/3.0 (sometimes even lower a B-/2.7).
     
    And sufficiently selective schools don't grade on the curve at all because that would be a total disservice to their students. They instead grade on mastery of the material which of course is more or more difficult work for the instructor and his TAs, and if a student has chosen a suitable major he'll be earning As and Bs for almost all the courses for his major. Weasel word because that wonderful first term organic teacher I've been mentioning, a tenured MIT professor? He said he knew very few colleagues who hadn't totally bombed at least one class.
  85. Organic chemistry is essential to understanding medicine. How can one understand the tenants of pharmacology, toxicology, cell physiology, metabolism, or endocrinology without basic organic chemistry? Imagine trying to understand acid-base disorders, diabetes, thyroid disorders without organic chemistry. Imagine interpreting l abs from patients with alcohol disorders, overdoses, thyrotoxicosis, biliary dysfunction, heart failure, or renal failure. Organic chemistry provides the clues to all of this.

  86. “That said, it could well be that kids are getting lazier and dumber during the Great Awokening and especially since the 2020 cultural double whammy of covid and George Floyd. Which bodes ill for future patients, such as, well, us all.“

    Add in the neo cons, Jews, and Deep State, Me. Sailer.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Corvinus


    Add in the neo cons, Jews, and Deep State, Me. Sailer.
     
    OK, no problem.

    "Which bodes ill for future patients, such as, well, the neo cons, Jews, Deep State, Me, Sailer and us all."

    Replies: @Rob, @BosTex

  87. Here’s someone who was told in undergrad that she probably could not become a doctor, but she became a doctor anyway. (Being black may have helped.)

    Father of slain Mercy Hospital doctor: ‘Tammy’s profession was to save lives’

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/2018/11/20/18315221/father-of-slain-mercy-hospital-doctor-tammy-s-profession-was-to-save-lives

    “She always went after what she really wanted in life” her father said. At Purdue, he added, “she had a professor tell her that he didn’t think that she could become a doctor and that drove her and she proved him wrong,” he said.

  88. I noticed cheating on a Zoom-administered test here in Seoul, for English studies. The students were asked to identify a passage from a short story that we had read in class. The students took the passage and Googled it. Luckily, what came up was the title of the short story collection rather than the title of the short story. In this way, I was able to figure out that 3/4 of the class had either not read the short story or were crap at cheat-Googling.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Tony Lawless

    What did you do after you discovered the cheating?

  89. If you cannot handle Organic Chemistry, how are you going to handle residency? In most cases, a student being “weeded out” early from a professional path that they are not suited for is hugely beneficial to that student.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @EddieSpaghetti

    I’ve known a ton of people who started out as pre-meds and were vastly happier after leaving the pre-med program. Organic kills a lot of dreams, but in many cases those dreams were nightmares.

    , @Graveldips
    @EddieSpaghetti

    I know a tenured prof of computer science, and department chair, who took it upon himself to teach Comp Sci 101 to ensure that a thorough weeding took place immediately rather than waste the students' and the school's time. Between himself and a rotation of like-minded colleagues, very few got into the program who couldn't finish it. He was very clear that this was a policy of kindness as well as expedience.

    Replies: @BosTex, @Jim Don Bob

  90. @Corvinus
    “That said, it could well be that kids are getting lazier and dumber during the Great Awokening and especially since the 2020 cultural double whammy of covid and George Floyd. Which bodes ill for future patients, such as, well, us all.“

    Add in the neo cons, Jews, and Deep State, Me. Sailer.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Add in the neo cons, Jews, and Deep State, Me. Sailer.

    OK, no problem.

    “Which bodes ill for future patients, such as, well, the neo cons, Jews, Deep State, Me, Sailer and us all.”

    • LOL: Rob
    • Replies: @Rob
    @Jack D

    Seriously, I cannot stop laughimg at this.

    , @BosTex
    @Jack D

    Just re-read it again. That is
    Pretty dang funny.

  91. The key here is the emphasis on problem-solving i.e. his tests were likely tricky and required some degree of independent review of the material rather than a listen to the lecture and a look at the book to attain high scores. Depending on how the tests were normed it could be a high percentage of students failed who otherwise would have succeeded if he weren’t old-fashioned and tired of life. Maybe these kids who failed don’t deserve to be doctors or maybe they do. I didn’t take the course and there is no way to tell right or wrong by this article alone. Maybe the kids are all lazy and will get people killed. Maybe this old guy doesn’t care if they pass or not since they are not up to his standard. If I am paying a lot I would want a second chance but firing the prof seems like a way for the school to absolve themselves of the whole mess.

    • Agree: Hibernian
  92. @Father Coughlin
    @Paleo Liberal

    Anecdotally, Asian students who receive bad grades in the US go ape-shit sometimes and have their parents, uncles, and even government ministers call the US professor to complain.

    Replies: @Unit472, @J.Ross

    15 years ago I ordered some GPS jammers from China. They also blocked 3G phone service and police radios. I just wanted to bloc GPS signals to keep worthless public sector administrators from ”timing” how long it took me to do a job since they promised they would never do that and it was just for our safety but it was apparent that was all they were doing and to use the little pocket units to shut down cellphones so I could have someones undivided attention since they requested the appointment.

    Anyway I got a bigger more powerful unit and found I could turn off cellphones at busy intersections so when the left turn arrow was green people would notice and drive instead of talking on the phone and make everyone miss the light.

    The Chinese instruction manual was amusing though since it specifically stated blocking cell and internet traffic was useful in the school setting to prevent students from cheating. I hadn’t thought of that but maybe todays teachers should demand schools require them in examination rooms.

    • Thanks: Polistra
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Unit472

    My daughter recently took the nurse's test (and passed!). It's an adaptive test. They did some kind of biometric authentication before they let her in the door.

  93. @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    "but boarding in NYU’s dorms is probably well below market rents for the area."

    It's actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Peterike, @kimchilover, @Anonymous, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    After graduating from college I took a summer graduate course in filmmaking at NYU’s TISH School of the Arts in the summer of 1997 (I was 23) and my 21 year old roommate was a white hiphop dj from Rhode Island who had been taking the least amount of classes year round to qualify for dorm life since he was 18 (his mom owned a bunch of convenance stores in RI). I gotta admit, he was having a VERY good time.

  94. @stillCARealist
    @AKAHorace

    Good comment. I noticed this in the 80's with my classmates who were determined to get to medical school even if they knew they didn't have the academic chops.

    If this particular TA won't give me an A, then I want a new section!
    I'm more likely to have an A average if I major in history, not molecular biology!

    The number of those kids who did go to med school was much lower than those who claimed to be on their way to it. The accepted were all Jewish, Asian or Indian (and good for them).

    Replies: @AKAHorace

    Good comment. I noticed this in the 80’s with my classmates who were determined to get to medical school even if they knew they didn’t have the academic chops.

    If this particular TA won’t give me an A, then I want a new section!
    I’m more likely to have an A average if I major in history, not molecular biology!

    It has actually gotten worse as Medical schools now look at extra curricular things. So
    you have pre-meds signing up for clubs and sports that they are not interested in and struggling
    to become club president. There are also cases of pre meds getting into charities and then
    doing the bare minimum so that they look as if they are altruists.

  95. This is BS. Rich parents want their mediocre, entitled kids to be doctors, so they have to relax undergrad science standards?

    I wouldn’t dream of encouraging my kid to pursue medicine if he or she couldn’t handle undergrad chemistry. What kind of shortsighted people think anyone has a right to be a doctor?

    Also, the only advantages a working class kid can have over his or her wealthy peers are natural talent and perseverance. If people want to talk about social justice, where is the justice in blunting the effects of those traits?

    • Thanks: Hibernian
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Bill P


    Also, the only advantages a working class kid can have over his or her wealthy peers are natural talent and perseverance. If people want to talk about social justice, where is the justice in blunting the effects of those traits?
     
    Idiot, this is not about (white) working class kids, it is about blacks who have a well known and unfixable by any known means 1SD gap in IQ. "Social justice" is a code word for "more blacks" so any g-loaded filter is by definition the opposite of social justice and has got to go.

    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible. Sure you can be black and get into NYU and bullshit your way thru some "African Studies" major but them equations and that old cracker professor are totally unforgiving. You're just not allowed to say "this material is too difficult for blacks so we must dumb it down if we want more black doctors."

    Replies: @fish, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Zoos

  96. @R.G. Camara
    @Hypnotoad666


    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor
     
    I really don't know how you can say this. Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them --which is what organic chemistry teaches -- is absolutely essential for every doctor. This is fundamental, because it will tell them things like which medications are going to interact poorly with the immune system or a patient or which implant is best. I certainly want a doctor who passed orgo, since I don't want him giving me a prescription for a medication that will kill me.

    Replies: @Meretricious, @ic1000, @Bill Jones, @Jack D, @Renter

    No, what it really is is a highly g loaded subject, one that requires BOTH a lot of memorization AND a lot of ability to comprehend complex materials. Thus, people who are JUST grinds can’t do it and people who are brilliant but lack Sitzfleisch can’t do it either. It could just as well be ancient Greek or multivariable calculus. It has relatively little that has DIRECTLY to do with what doctors need to know (great course for chemical engineers though) but a lot that INDIRECTLY relates in that it taps the same skill sets that will be needed later on in med school.

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Troll: R.G. Camara
    • Replies: @Anon
    @Jack D

    https://www.twitter.com/SpeakingBee/status/1577188768628453377

    Replies: @Celt Darnell

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Jack D

    Shut up, fed.

    Unless you and your fellow enemies of the people can tell us what happened in Vegas ---how the greatest mass shooting in U.S. history occurred.

    How long did you groom him to do it?

  97. @Bill P
    This is BS. Rich parents want their mediocre, entitled kids to be doctors, so they have to relax undergrad science standards?

    I wouldn't dream of encouraging my kid to pursue medicine if he or she couldn't handle undergrad chemistry. What kind of shortsighted people think anyone has a right to be a doctor?

    Also, the only advantages a working class kid can have over his or her wealthy peers are natural talent and perseverance. If people want to talk about social justice, where is the justice in blunting the effects of those traits?

    Replies: @Jack D

    Also, the only advantages a working class kid can have over his or her wealthy peers are natural talent and perseverance. If people want to talk about social justice, where is the justice in blunting the effects of those traits?

    Idiot, this is not about (white) working class kids, it is about blacks who have a well known and unfixable by any known means 1SD gap in IQ. “Social justice” is a code word for “more blacks” so any g-loaded filter is by definition the opposite of social justice and has got to go.

    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible. Sure you can be black and get into NYU and bullshit your way thru some “African Studies” major but them equations and that old cracker professor are totally unforgiving. You’re just not allowed to say “this material is too difficult for blacks so we must dumb it down if we want more black doctors.”

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @fish
    @Jack D

    Now you’ve done it! Troof will have to post another World Star video clip showing whites doing something stupid to disprove your thesis.

    , @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Jack D


    Idiot, this is not about (white) working class kids, it is about blacks who have a well known and unfixable by any known means 1SD gap in IQ. “Social justice” is a code word for “more blacks” so any g-loaded filter is by definition the opposite of social justice and has got to go.
     
    I don't think they'd fire the Professor if it was working class white kids doing the complaining, so you're almost certainly correct here. And I don't think working class white kids have been trained to complain, since no one listens anyway.

    What you have to watch out for is the cumulative Affirmative Action bonuses for blacks in professions like Medicine - first undergrad (now with an equity-corrupted organic chemistry course), then Medical School, and then residencies and so on. What happens at the terminus of these serial Affirmative Action bites at the apple?

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @Zoos
    @Jack D


    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible.
     
    I don’t think that’s true. Although the entire bell curve for Black IQ heaves to the left of Whites, Asians, and Jews, it’s still a bell curve, and those blacks on the right side with a 120 IQ or more probably adds up to around 15 million.

    The black bell curve reliably shifting leftward compared to the above mentioned is enough of a social and economic problem without misrepresenting the problem as even worse than it is.

    Replies: @James B. Shearer, @International Jew, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Jack D

  98. @Jack D
    @Bill P


    Also, the only advantages a working class kid can have over his or her wealthy peers are natural talent and perseverance. If people want to talk about social justice, where is the justice in blunting the effects of those traits?
     
    Idiot, this is not about (white) working class kids, it is about blacks who have a well known and unfixable by any known means 1SD gap in IQ. "Social justice" is a code word for "more blacks" so any g-loaded filter is by definition the opposite of social justice and has got to go.

    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible. Sure you can be black and get into NYU and bullshit your way thru some "African Studies" major but them equations and that old cracker professor are totally unforgiving. You're just not allowed to say "this material is too difficult for blacks so we must dumb it down if we want more black doctors."

    Replies: @fish, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Zoos

    Now you’ve done it! Troof will have to post another World Star video clip showing whites doing something stupid to disprove your thesis.

  99. “Students said the high-stakes course — notorious for ending many a dream of medical school — was too hard, blaming Dr. Jones for their poor test score.”

    As a PhD biochemist, I sympathize. It’s not the most straightforward thing in the World to understand. You have to really, *really* love it like I did to pursue it and gather the motivation to understand it. One of the happiest days of my lofe was when I turned 8, and I was givena full chemistry set for my birthday. A little nerd? Sure. But since I was both taller and better-looking than most boys, the nerd taunt never bothered me much. I just found the idea that everything is made of atoms, and that I could combine atoms to form almost anything that I wanted, extremely interesting and tantalizing.

    Having said all this, the organic chemstry that you need to learn to become an M.D is really, really, really simple and basic stuff. If you can’t understand how the Krebs Cycle works, or how pyruvate dehydrogenase utilizes nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide to transform pyruvate into Acetyl-CoenzymeA, or how Selenium binds to proteins to form sellenoproteins, or how Zinc ions transfer works in cell surfaces via zinc finger proteins, etc. This is basic stuff. If you can’t understand these things, then there is something seriously wrong with your brain. It’s not like they are asking much of pre-med students, honestly.

    • Thanks: epebble
    • Replies: @epebble
    @Zero Philosopher


    If you can’t understand how the Krebs Cycle works, or how pyruvate dehydrogenase utilizes nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide to transform pyruvate into Acetyl-CoenzymeA, or how Selenium binds to proteins to form sellenoproteins, or how Zinc ions transfer works in cell surfaces via zinc finger proteins, etc.
     


    I studied organic chemistry in college and never studied any of that. Everything sounds like Biochemistry to me.

    Replies: @Rob, @Zero Philosopher

  100. Anonymous[365] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Paleo Liberal


    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.
     
    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive. A lot of formerly commuter-oriented schools generated cash flow by building dormitories and requiring on-campus living but boarding in NYU's dorms is probably well below market rents for the area.

    Of course, it could solve two problems at once by selling all of its real estate and decamping to an outer borough with more abundant, cheaper land but then it wouldn't really be NYU anymore, would it? I think a big part of its draw for a lot of students originating from elsewhere is getting to live in Lower Manhattan in one's late teens and early twenties. Take that away and it's just another boring but expensive University.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Technite78, @Anonymous

    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive.

    Doesn’t NYU already own most of the land it is on? If so, it is sheltered from high real estate prices.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    NYU sold its campus in the South Bronx (?) and moved to Greenwich Village about 50 years ago. (A smart move.) It doesn't have a campus like a traditional US college in Thomas Jefferson mode for the U. of Virginia. It's more like a Parisian college with buildings here and there around Washington Square. It does own a lot of land, but it's not like Rice U., which has steadily expanded into its vast football stadium parking lot for generations.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @ScarletNumber

    , @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Anonymous



    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive.
     
    Doesn’t NYU already own most of the land it is on? If so, it is sheltered from high real estate prices.

     

    If you've been around Universities in the last 20 years or so you'd understand that they're like sharks - they seem to feel the need to expand by consuming new land or that they'll die. They're adding country club like amenities to attract more would-be student applicants, and it's important that they have brand new labs and lecture halls and dormitories and student centers and gyms and so forth.

    So my point is that NYU can't as easily expand and add space as colleges surrounded by more abundant or cheaper land.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  101. @Known Fact
    @Jack D

    My father could repair just about anything, was an airfield rat fixing and flying planes at age 17 and became a known technical innovator in his professional field -- but could never get the hang of personal computers. While still sharp at 80 it just was not in his nature to sit in front of a screen and type.

    My more on-topic thought here is just to wonder how all this would have played out if the professor was 54 or 64 instead of 84. And tenured, of course.

    Replies: @njguy73

    There seems to be this misconception that mechanical aptitude and technological aptitude are one and the same. One uses kinesthetic intelligence, the other mathematical.

    • Agree: fish
    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @njguy73

    I don't even think it's a misconception anymore, because we've all become used to seeing people function so naturally in certain areas and yet remain clueless or just unable to adapt in others. And vice versa. Computer literacy is just one glaring modern example.

    We also know now that people really do learn differently, as we see in this debate over distance classes vs in-person classes, books vs. spoken lectures and so on. So likewise people also perform differently from one skill set to another, mechanical vs. mathematical being one example as you say. Even "renaissance men" can have a blind spot or Achilles Heel, as in the example of my father

  102. @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    "but boarding in NYU’s dorms is probably well below market rents for the area."

    It's actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Peterike, @kimchilover, @Anonymous, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    It’s actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    What is good, specifically, about living in the romantic comedy capital?

  103. I think at NYU you’re dealing with an especially woke and maybe self-involved student body (when you live in Manhattan you think you’re important). I do wonder what the diversity angle is. My impression of NYU is it’s very Asian.

  104. @Rob
    @Altai

    There’s a lot of room for verbal intelligence in medicine. I’d take a doctor with 140 verbal IQ and 100 mathematical* than the other way around.

    I realize that’s a huge gap, but I have a verbal/math and performance IQ gap that’s bigger than that. The psychiatrist who tested me said it was the biggest gap he’d seen absent a disability, like 100/60 is rare but does happen with brain damage.

    For a surgeon, visuospatial ability is really important, along with manual dexterity and and sometimes strength. Organic chemistry is really good for weeding out people without the first. I’ve heard orthopedic surgery residencies like athletes a lot.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Dvnjbbgc, @gabriel alberton

    Even if O-chem is just for pulling weeds, that’s a good thing. I’d rather have a doctor who passed it than one who didn’t; smarter is always better.

    As for the verbal/math gap, I’d rather have a doctor who isn’t like you (or me). I need a doctor who knows his material, and can solve problems. I don’t need him for witty banter, or poetry recitation,

  105. @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    "but boarding in NYU’s dorms is probably well below market rents for the area."

    It's actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Peterike, @kimchilover, @Anonymous, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    It’s actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    Yea – I suppose if you are cost sensitive it presents a choice of living in the Village for four years as an undergraduate while accumulating debt which would make living in the Village after graduation less likely.

    Hopefully the foreign students get as comically bad idea of “America” from NYU as American students do who “study abroad” in some former imperial European Capital. The American kids who come back from “studying” some remedial material in Rome or London while living in a posh area where a one bedroom flat would be $1.5 Million, eating nightly in restaurants, and seeing the jewels of the former empire daily and say “in Europe, blah blah . . . is better.” No, dummies, you just lived in the equivalent of Beverly Hills on “student loan” credit for four months.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    There used to be a school near me for Japanese high school kids to do their Year Abroad. Being Japanese, they don't actually like non-Japanese culture, so it was very insular. One thing I noticed is that affluent Japanese are just about the best dressers in the world lately. You could instantly tell the Japanese kids from the Harvard-Westlake rich kids by how much better they were dressed.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter

    , @Ganderson
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Not only that, but most who come back from “study” abroad programs can’t even say “the pencils are on the desk”, or “can you direct me to the railway station”? in said country’s language.

  106. @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    "but boarding in NYU’s dorms is probably well below market rents for the area."

    It's actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Peterike, @kimchilover, @Anonymous, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Deleted duplicate post

  107. @dearieme
    In my experience (a million years ago) attending lectures on Organic Chemistry was deadly dull. On t'other hand doing the corresponding synthesis lab was great fun. Since I thrived in that lab I must assume that some of the content of the dismal lectures had lodged in my brain.

    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn't have been based simply on directed reading and lab work. But my classmates insisted that lectures were necessary. I suspect they were right, but why? Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?

    Replies: @fish, @Dave from Oz, @Reg Cæsar, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @PhysicistDave, @Rob

    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn’t have been based simply on directed reading and lab work.

    I have suggested many times that the lecture and taking notes is a relic of the days before the printing press, when a student would literally need to listen and copy down the words of the Great Man to have any permanent copy of the information.

  108. @dearieme
    In my experience (a million years ago) attending lectures on Organic Chemistry was deadly dull. On t'other hand doing the corresponding synthesis lab was great fun. Since I thrived in that lab I must assume that some of the content of the dismal lectures had lodged in my brain.

    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn't have been based simply on directed reading and lab work. But my classmates insisted that lectures were necessary. I suspect they were right, but why? Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?

    Replies: @fish, @Dave from Oz, @Reg Cæsar, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @PhysicistDave, @Rob

    Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?

    “Lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg…”

    and an age after YouTube.

  109. @Jack D
    @Bill P


    Also, the only advantages a working class kid can have over his or her wealthy peers are natural talent and perseverance. If people want to talk about social justice, where is the justice in blunting the effects of those traits?
     
    Idiot, this is not about (white) working class kids, it is about blacks who have a well known and unfixable by any known means 1SD gap in IQ. "Social justice" is a code word for "more blacks" so any g-loaded filter is by definition the opposite of social justice and has got to go.

    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible. Sure you can be black and get into NYU and bullshit your way thru some "African Studies" major but them equations and that old cracker professor are totally unforgiving. You're just not allowed to say "this material is too difficult for blacks so we must dumb it down if we want more black doctors."

    Replies: @fish, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Zoos

    Idiot, this is not about (white) working class kids, it is about blacks who have a well known and unfixable by any known means 1SD gap in IQ. “Social justice” is a code word for “more blacks” so any g-loaded filter is by definition the opposite of social justice and has got to go.

    I don’t think they’d fire the Professor if it was working class white kids doing the complaining, so you’re almost certainly correct here. And I don’t think working class white kids have been trained to complain, since no one listens anyway.

    What you have to watch out for is the cumulative Affirmative Action bonuses for blacks in professions like Medicine – first undergrad (now with an equity-corrupted organic chemistry course), then Medical School, and then residencies and so on. What happens at the terminus of these serial Affirmative Action bites at the apple?

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)


    What happens at the terminus of these serial Affirmative Action bites at the apple?
     
    Redd Foxx figured this out years ago. In the Sanford and Son episode Tooth or Consequences (which originally aired 50 years ago next Thursday) he insisted on a white dentist because they are better than black dentists. Of course, since this was a Norman Lear production, they made the white dentist an inexperienced intern and his black boss the most experienced guy in the clinic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDbmWeunheU
  110. @International Jew
    NYU joke from an old Woody Allen movie:
    https://youtu.be/QzfuRV462_I at 2:00

    Replies: @VivaLaMigra

    Speaking of Mailer, I tried wading through Mailer’s “The Naked and the Dead.” I think it was made into a movie at one time; no doubt the screenwriters had to shit-can more than half the book, just as they did with “From Here to Eternity” in the 50’s.

  111. @Jack D
    @R.G. Camara

    No, what it really is is a highly g loaded subject, one that requires BOTH a lot of memorization AND a lot of ability to comprehend complex materials. Thus, people who are JUST grinds can't do it and people who are brilliant but lack Sitzfleisch can't do it either. It could just as well be ancient Greek or multivariable calculus. It has relatively little that has DIRECTLY to do with what doctors need to know (great course for chemical engineers though) but a lot that INDIRECTLY relates in that it taps the same skill sets that will be needed later on in med school.

    Replies: @Anon, @R.G. Camara

    • Thanks: Celt Darnell
    • Replies: @Celt Darnell
    @Anon

    “The teacher was fired for sabotaging students’ careers with low grades…Students aren’t there to get low grades.”

    That really is the bleak statement of this whole story.

    Because students have no control over their grades whatsoever, right? Grades are just randomly assigned to the helpless students.

  112. @Paleo Liberal
    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.

    Replies: @Father Coughlin, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @guest007, @Hibernian, @Bugg, @BosTex

    NYU was hit hard in the late ’60s/early ’70s by having to sell its traditional campus in the Bronx at a fire sale price, because the Bronx was falling apart. It spun off its engineering school and consolidated at its Downtown night school campus, which I believe was the original 19th century campus. The spun off engineering school merged with Brooklyn Poly, which years later merged with NYU. So NYU now has two very urban campuses, one each in Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan.

  113. @prosa123
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Another opportunity for my perennial question: “Is organic chemistry necessary for the study of medicine for a general practitioner, or is it simply a weeding out course as a barrier to entry into the medical profession?”
    Medical doctors I’ve asked this question tend to fall into the latter camp – it’s just a science-y hoop to jump through to keep the numbers down.


    Chemistry and chemical engineering majors also have to take it, however the article seems to focus on just pre-med students.

    Replies: @Meretricious, @fish, @Frank the Prof

    Chemistry and chemical engineering majors also have to take it, however the article seems to focus on just pre-med students.

    If I had to guess, the thought of not being able to practice woke medicine was so hateful to the petitioners that they felt that they owed it to society to speak out. The toobies and ChemE’s not so much.

  114. @Hypnotoad666

    And how hard should organic chemistry be anyway?
     
    This is the only relevant issue in this pseudo-controversy. (Along with the related issue of whether this old prof. made O-Chem harder than it should be).

    It's out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor.

    So, if academia has decided to make O-Chem into a form of hazing that bottlenecks access to med school, then I'd say the kids have a good point. (Although their beef may be more against this tradition than their particular geezer prof.).

    Leaving O-Chem aside, the bigger issue is how hard should it be to become a doctor? Make it too easy and people will die from malpractice. Make it too hard, and people will die from a lack of affordable medical care. A classic Type I vs Type II error conundrum. (Complicated of course by the fact that the supply of doctors also impacts their compensation.)

    I don't know if anyone has tackled this issue in a systematic cost-benefit way. But it's kind of important.

    P.S., Why don't they just grade the class on a normal curve and let the students sort themselves out?

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @stillCARealist, @Hibernian

    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor.

    I took two quarters of Organic Chemistry at Iowa State (I was in Chemical Engineering.) and there’s more to it than that. They explain the 3D structures of the molecules. I think that’s good for a doctor. I don’t trust a doctor who’s just committed the Merck medical handbook to memory.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Hibernian


    They explain the 3D structures of the molecules. I think that’s good for a doctor.
     
    Why?

    Replies: @epebble

  115. @ic1000
    @R.G. Camara

    > Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them –which is what organic chemistry teaches — is absolutely essential for every doctor.

    Well, that's pretty true. That course is Biochemistry, which pre-meds and bio majors take as an undergrad, and then aspiring doctors cover at a deeper level in the first year of medical school. Like our bodies, biochem is big on proteins, nucleic acids, lipids, and carbohydrates; enzymatic reactions take the top billing.

    Organic chemistry is mostly about hydrocarbons -- totally on-target for e.g. a refinery. It's challenging because it builds on general chemistry, but requires a lot of both rote memorization and subtle understanding. E.g. I studied how a molecule with an ethyl adduct will behave in this situation, what can I deduce or analogize about a molecule with an isopropyl adduct?

    So the successful student has to be smart (good recall and visual-spatial ability), diligent/conscientious ("do all of the problem sets"), and willing to learn an abstract science. It's somewhat like learning a new language.

    And a few parts of it do have subject-area relevance for certain advanced fields in medicine.

    Commenters who point out that organic chemistry has been the classic weed-out or sorting class for pre-meds are right. Yes, the choice of subject is arbitrary. Longstanding questions in medical education have been "Is this the best class to serve this function?," "How hard should the class be?," "What should be the lowest acceptable grade?," and "Should there be a weed-out class at all?"

    In these regards, it's like a lot of other social issues having to do with limited resources and the "best" way to allocate them. 82 of Maitland Jones' 350 students have weighed in; clearly 82 of the coveted medical school seats should go to them.

    Their future patients could not be reached for comment.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Zero Philosopher

    Don’t you think Organic Chemistry might be the foundation for Biochemistry? Sure, the immediate applications were in Chemical Engineering.

    • Agree: fish
    • Replies: @ic1000
    @Hibernian

    > Don’t you think Organic Chemistry [is] the foundation for Biochemistry?
    Yes.

  116. So…

    Never agree to be treated by a doctor under thirty?

  117. Anonymous[954] • Disclaimer says:

    Are private jet pilots unionized? Whether they are or not, the number of pilots of color, especially Black and Mexican pilots, are sorely underrepresented.

    I think there should be a national effort to right this enduring wrong, and get Blacks and Mexicans into the private cockpits, based on the law of equity!

    The commercial pilot industry can wait for a bit, as I have places to fly this year, but for the private pilot sector, this shit has been going on for TOO LONG!! It would also provide a ground floor opportunity for our undocumented migrants.

    LET’S MAKE THINGS RIGHT!!

    RIGHT NOW!!

  118. @Paleo Liberal
    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.

    Replies: @Father Coughlin, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @guest007, @Hibernian, @Bugg, @BosTex

    Graduated NYU undergrad biz school in 1986. Has transitioned since from a commuter school to more of a residental campus. In the process has acquired other schools like Polytechnic (an engineering school in downtown Brooklyn) , many buildings for dorms and hospitals across NYC. Arguably NYU now has as much realty in NYC as any private entity other than the Catholic Church.

    But to save $, NYU has forever employed graduate assistants and adjuncts to teach many undergrad courses. None are tenured, and many are foreign born and ESL.Other NY area schools, even less prestigous ones, simply don’t do that. Every few years they go on strike to protest their lousy pay.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Bugg

    Yes, the transformation from a commuter safety school to an elite school started while you were there, with the hiring of John Brademas as NYU President. His plan was to raise $1 billion, raise the tuition to make people think it was a better school, and recruit better students. They had all sorts of full scholarships to attract top notch students. Also, they started recruiting like crazy in Asia. In the early 1990s a Korean friend pointed out a guy at NYU and told me the guy was a big Korean star. I think an actor. It seems he was widely hated by the Koreans at NYU. A few year earlier an NYU frat boy told me that student Chasity Bono always hung out at the frat parties. I couldn’t figure out why, since Chasity was rumored to be a dyke. Now that Chasity is Chaz, maybe it was just to hang out with the guys.

    These days NYU Med has a large enough endowment they are giving free tuition to all their students. Make it the Cooper Union of med schools. I hear these days almost every prospective med student applies to NYU med, so it will soon be the most selective med school in the world.

    Replies: @Polistra

  119. @Jack D
    @Bill P


    Also, the only advantages a working class kid can have over his or her wealthy peers are natural talent and perseverance. If people want to talk about social justice, where is the justice in blunting the effects of those traits?
     
    Idiot, this is not about (white) working class kids, it is about blacks who have a well known and unfixable by any known means 1SD gap in IQ. "Social justice" is a code word for "more blacks" so any g-loaded filter is by definition the opposite of social justice and has got to go.

    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible. Sure you can be black and get into NYU and bullshit your way thru some "African Studies" major but them equations and that old cracker professor are totally unforgiving. You're just not allowed to say "this material is too difficult for blacks so we must dumb it down if we want more black doctors."

    Replies: @fish, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Zoos

    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible.

    I don’t think that’s true. Although the entire bell curve for Black IQ heaves to the left of Whites, Asians, and Jews, it’s still a bell curve, and those blacks on the right side with a 120 IQ or more probably adds up to around 15 million.

    The black bell curve reliably shifting leftward compared to the above mentioned is enough of a social and economic problem without misrepresenting the problem as even worse than it is.

    • Replies: @James B. Shearer
    @Zoos

    "I don’t think that’s true. .."

    So what do you think the correct number is?

    Replies: @Zoos

    , @International Jew
    @Zoos


    those blacks on the right side with a 120 IQ or more probably adds up to around 15 million.
     
    That's wildly off the mark. 120 is 2⅓ standard deviations above the Black mean. Plug that into here...
    https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/normal
    and you get 1%. 1% of our roughly forty million Blacks is 400,000.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Zoos

    Is that number worldwide or for American blacks only?

    Incidentally, my dad (a former Econ professor) told me the smartest student he ever taught was an Igbo from Nigeria. I’ve heard some things about how that tribe may be more specifically selected for intelligence - kind of like the upper castes in India. If they had been successful in breaking away from the rest of Nigeria in the 60s, we’d probably have the closest thing to a real-life Wakanda.

    , @Jack D
    @Zoos

    I didn't misrepresent nuffin. You OTOH with your 15 million blacks above 120 I Q are blatantly lying or else you are incredibly misinformed and living in some Wakanda fantasy world.

  120. @Hibernian
    @ic1000

    Don't you think Organic Chemistry might be the foundation for Biochemistry? Sure, the immediate applications were in Chemical Engineering.

    Replies: @ic1000

    > Don’t you think Organic Chemistry [is] the foundation for Biochemistry?
    Yes.

  121. classification of finite simple groups

    There is a correspondence of group theory to chemistry (and of course even further in physics) through symmetry.

    Understanding finite simple groups like the Tits group requires thinking at a higher level of abstraction than for organic chemistry. It does requires higher IQ but the people who do it, like many Chinese mathematicians are as boring as drywall.

    NYU’s math department named after Richard Courant, who fled University of Göttingen in 1933 (David Hilbert in East Prussian dialect on the Göttingen math department: Jelitten? Dat hat nich jelitten, Herr Minister. Dat jibt es doch janich mehr! Suffered? they have not suffered, Herr Minister, there are no more left!) is ranked first in the world for applied math.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    NYU's math department was well-regarded and considered first rank decades before the rest of NYU acquired the kind of reputation that it seems to have these days. Back when I was an undergraduate, NYU was seen as being a sort of ultimate safety school to apply to. The reputation of most of its graduate departments wasn't much better.

  122. Derek Lowe (the medicinal chemist, not the baseball pitcher) has a judicious post on this and the comments are also worth reading:

    https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/organic-chemistry-s-place-world

    • Thanks: ic1000
  123. @War for Blair Mountain
    @War for Blair Mountain

    I mean organic chemistry is not like the classification of finite simple groups…gd cry babies…

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

    In my undergraduate years as a math major, the first encounter with group theory weeded out 60 out of 86 students who had declared intentions to major in pure and applied math. A lot of high school hotshots in mathematics who were good at algebra and calculus who had aspirations to become mathematicians found the kind of thinking required to successfully tackle and deal with mathematical structure, and finite mathematics in general, utterly alien and very hard to do.

    I think organic chemistry is unexpectedly hard for many pre-meds and chemistry undergrads for the same reason. It’s about structure, especially spacial structure, and requires very different cognitive skills to master, as compared to the topics in chemistry they may have encountered previously.

    It also doesn’t help that many an undergrad takes it at just the point where they’ve settled into college and are sophomores or juniors, and their dance cards are full, both socially and academically. Few have the wisdom and time planning skills to jettison what is inessential in their college lives and buckle down to tackle it.

    For those going to medical school, it does serve as a means to weed out pre-meds, but a full blown organic chemistry undergrad course is really designed for chemistry majors, and is almost certainly has way more information than most doctors need. An easier “Organic Chemistry for Pre Med” would work just as well, pedagogically speaking.

    But it would not serve the purpose of weeding out students who don’t have the capacity to pull it together and work hard, an essential skill in a medicals student, resident, or hospital doctor.

    As many have pointed out above, a good strategy is to take it in the summer—even with a summer job, there is ample time for a college student in those two or three months to focus on the subject, and grind through it and learn it well.

    • Replies: @War for Blair Mountain
    @PiltdownMan

    Piltdown Man

    I saw the same thing….Some people…lots of People just seemed to hit a wall at abstract algebra-group theory. I loved Abstract Algebra-Group Theory…So many real world interesting applications to boot. I have this beautiful book-with lots of beautiful pictures by the late GREAT John Conway(‘the Monster Group-Leech Latice) on Groups…..Of course, Groups have deep and beautiful applications in Chemistry….Physics….Theoretical Computer Science…..Seriuosly, Group Theory is the language of Mathematics and Physics….You would be surprised how many math puzzles can be solved with group theory…….

    The classification of finite simple groups is a breath-taking achievement of the human mind(along with the Thompson-Fiet Odd order theorem……Interestingly, The Odd Order theorem was solved using Character Theory which has very important applications in Chemistry…probably in Organic Chemistry…I mean, what is Organic Chemistry other than the study of symmetry and using symmetry to classify molecules….Crystallography is Finite Group Theory…..

    The Ribric’s Cube….the solution is a interesting application of the commutator…really intersting…

    , @War for Blair Mountain
    @PiltdownMan

    Since I mentioned the classification of Finite Groups….and the Rubic’s Cube:The symmetry group that characterizes the Rubi’s Cube twiddling is on the the list of The Classification Theorem…one of the exotic type of finite groups……

    , @Brutusale
    @PiltdownMan

    https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Dummies-Lifestyle/dp/1119293375

    Replies: @AKAHorace

  124. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    classification of finite simple groups

    There is a correspondence of group theory to chemistry (and of course even further in physics) through symmetry.

    Understanding finite simple groups like the Tits group requires thinking at a higher level of abstraction than for organic chemistry. It does requires higher IQ but the people who do it, like many Chinese mathematicians are as boring as drywall.

    NYU's math department named after Richard Courant, who fled University of Göttingen in 1933 (David Hilbert in East Prussian dialect on the Göttingen math department: Jelitten? Dat hat nich jelitten, Herr Minister. Dat jibt es doch janich mehr! Suffered? they have not suffered, Herr Minister, there are no more left!) is ranked first in the world for applied math.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

    NYU’s math department was well-regarded and considered first rank decades before the rest of NYU acquired the kind of reputation that it seems to have these days. Back when I was an undergraduate, NYU was seen as being a sort of ultimate safety school to apply to. The reputation of most of its graduate departments wasn’t much better.

  125. @War for Blair Mountain
    The Putnam Exam is fucking hard….but how hard can Organic Chemistry be outside of memorization? Can’t they take some kind of jelly fish abstract? Or drink the blue blood of that weird looking Horseshoe crab from the North East of America…?

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @War for Blair Mountain, @The Wobbly Guy, @That Would Be Telling

    I teach chemistry in Singapore at the pre-university level… but the content I teach is equivalent to university 1st and 2nd year content.
    https://www.seab.gov.sg/docs/default-source/national-examinations/syllabus/alevel/2022syllabus/9729_y22_sy.pdf

    There’s much more to organic chemistry than mere memorization.

    There’s synthesis – e.g. how do you get from compound A to compound B?

    Explanation – e.g. why is compound C more acidic than compound D?

    Mechanisms – e.g. why does compound E react this way when compound F reacts THAT way?

    And finally, the type of question my students hate the most, structural elucidation – here’s unknown compound G. Here are some observations of its reactions and features. Figure out its structure.

    I can say I’m a damn good chemistry teacher – my students have consistently gotten value-added results, which is to say I’ve gotten them to score better than the system predicted them to be.

    As for its applicability to medicine… well, some of the stuff is relevant, but I also think it’s really just a filter/weeding out process. Where organic chemistry is really relevant is probably more the pharmacy side.

    As for teaching it online, well, I guess as a child of the IT revolution I had no problems adapting to remote learning. Heck, I pioneered it in my school and pushed for more blended style learning, which paid huge dividends with covid. Got some nifty performance bonuses out of it too.

    To teach using zoom, all I need is a random name generator (used excel for it), a tablet laptop where I can draw on the screen, MS One Note, and maybe chemsketch. Heck, I did zoom teaching for almost all of 2020 and it went fine. Keep calling students, get them to answer, tell them to flash their written answers and hold it up on screen, or whatsapp me so I can put it up.

    But it works only for a smaller class, maybe 30, tops. Larger groups, harder to keep them on task, but that’s where the pedagogy comes in and you’ve got to spice it up periodically with videos and other activities.

    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @The Wobbly Guy

    Interesting.

    I confess: when I took it 30+ years ago I didn't learn much from the lectures. Most of my learning came from discussing it with the TA and the sharp tacks in the class. There were students in there, all of 19 years old, who could expatiate grandly on reaction mechanisms. It was awe-inspiring and I listened eagerly to their questions and answers. Almost like Jesus at the temple when he was 12.

    My suspicion is that some students are taking classes in HS that are college level and getting a head start on this stuff. They know early on how bright they are and go leaping ahead of everybody else. I'd like to see more of this and less of the accommodation of whining slackers in college.

    , @War for Blair Mountain
    @The Wobbly Guy

    Wobbly

    I completely agree with you. To the extent that an Organic Chemistry Course tests for conceptual and algorithmic thinking it serves the purpose of screening out students who are deficient in this. Why would anyone want people without these skills working as a Doctor?

    I raised the issue of classifying finite groups because Organic Chemistry reminds of this…

    If you are gonna be a Physician you should know about the logic and structure of carbon…

  126. If I had a do-over, I wouldn’t attend a research university. Those autistic professors are not hired for their teaching abilities. It’s only worth the trouble if you are planning to be a research professor yourself. Attend college where you’ll learn the most, not someplace where you’ll suffer the most and get to brag about it if you survive.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Butler T. Reynolds


    I wouldn’t attend a research university. Those autistic professors are not hired for their teaching abilities.
     
    That's quite a broad brush there. Would you consider Princeton and Yale to be research universities? Because they've traditionally been known to hire according to teaching ability as much or more than research; most or all of the top profs teach undergraduates; and Harvard, Stanford, and Berkeley have traditionally gone the other way.
  127. @Paleo Liberal
    @Technite78

    The irony being that when NYU sold its old Bronx campus they promised to never have an engineering program again. Somehow buying Poly released them of that promise.

    Replies: @Inverness, @ScarletNumber

    Why would they need to make such a promise in the first place?

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @ScarletNumber

    So as not to compete with the engineering school they sold.

    Someone else explained that the sold school merged with Brooklyn Poly so when NYU bought Poly they simply acquired their old engineering school. Which I suppose means they couldn’t compete with a school they now owned.

  128. OC offers essentially nothing useful to the physician providing patient care. Perhaps to MD PhDs who focus on research and should have just skipped the MD anyway. The only useful undergrad courses for physicians are in biology and to a much lesser extent, biochemistry and molecular biology. Most undergrad and even med school curriculum is useless to the average physician. It’s all a huge waste of time and money. Give rising HS freshmen an IQ test or stand-in and those who excel could be academically prepared to be a good doctor by HS graduation. Nobody wants 18 yo docs though and for good reason, even if you also screen for desirable personality characteristics. Maybe put them through a paid apprenticeship where they gain experience learning how to interact with patients for a few years then onto internship and residency. Probably have them better prepared by age 25 without debt, while the current system delays it to age 30+ while going deeply in debt.

    As a previous commenter noted, OC is basically the IQ plus conscientiousness screen in microcosm that standardized test plus GPA now assesses. You can’t cram. You must be able to figure out novel problems on the spot, repeatedly. This is exactly what you want in a doctor. So, though clinically irrelevant, it is a great “weed out” for potential MDs.

    Unlike most undergrad classes, where basically everyone scores between 70-100, in OC it is not unusual for an 80 to be an A, or a 65 a B. This unnecessarily freaks out kids who have never gotten less than a 90, even though they will still get an A or B. Very few students will outright fail the class. Even if you get a C, med school admissions doesn’t disqualify a student based only on that one grade. If the GPA and MCAT are in order, you’ll still get in. Undergrads are too anxious about this class. Yes, it’s hard. But put in some work, pass it, attend to your other classes and MCAT, which is now watered down, and you’ll be fine. In the past, doing badly in OC was more a marker that you weren’t going to cut it on the MCAT, so better to bail now than waste another 1-2 years down a dead end path.

    • Thanks: Hypnotoad666
    • Replies: @Houston 1992
    @PartridgeBro

    1)one wonders if the petition list will eventually leak. The petitioners to have an adjunct fired may find that admission committees will be alert to their apps

    2) Those who earned poor grades still have to earn/ acquire a good grade for the OC class so just getting it removed from their transcript and re-taking the course if still on the pre-med path was a good option.

  129. @War for Blair Mountain
    The Putnam Exam is fucking hard….but how hard can Organic Chemistry be outside of memorization? Can’t they take some kind of jelly fish abstract? Or drink the blue blood of that weird looking Horseshoe crab from the North East of America…?

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @War for Blair Mountain, @The Wobbly Guy, @That Would Be Telling

    but how hard can Organic Chemistry be outside of memorization?

    Answering you, , yourself maybe, @theMann, , and agreeing with , a lot harder because there’s a lot more to it:

    You must be both a wordcel and a shape-rotator and use both skills together. You must memorize (and here that old sacked professor as described by the media (warning) sounds completely out to lunch) a bunch of names of molecules and groups of atoms which do have a system so it’s not like random digits, and their 3D shapes, and you must literally rotate shapes and otherwise visualize them in 3D.

    Besides the possible but very dubious to me pharmacological tie in, and of course organic is a prerequisite of biochemistry, mastering these in the limited context of a single semester course (I saw someone say a second term is required?? but I don’t know that, was on a science not premed track), should be an excellent weed-out for people who won’t be able to memorize the similar style of data about the body including of course anatomy, for the latter the corresponding 3D shapes, then you don’t have to as intensely shape-rotate it all but you still need to visualize everything all together in 3D.

    This is particularly true for surgeons including those athletic orthapeds who have to manipulate bones still attached to protesting muscles, it’s also needed for diagnostics, and obviously radiology (creation and interpretation of images) and radiotherapy. And I’m sure other things.

    It’s a lot of work, and if you can’t do it you’re not likely to become an adequate doctor. Even if you were to become for example a psychiatrist you need the more general medical education to know when something else is going on. You’re also expected to have a clue in emergencies.

    • Agree: ic1000, PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @War for Blair Mountain
    @That Would Be Telling

    That would be Telling

    Yes there is mathematical structure hidden in Organic Chemistry…and it’s not even hidden…I mean the Orthogonal Group gotta be in there somewhere…isometries and metric spaces also…

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @Shale boi

    , @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @That Would Be Telling


    It’s a lot of work, and if you can’t do it you’re not likely to become an adequate doctor. Even if you were to become for example a psychiatrist you need the more general medical education to know when something else is going on. You’re also expected to have a clue in emergencies.
     
    Perhaps but my unscientific survey of doctors runs at near uniform "no, I don't use organic chemistry in the practice of medicine, nor did I rely upon it in medical school."

    It wouldn't be so much of an issue if the current cursus for selecting medical doctors yielded a sufficient number of medical doctors to meet demand. Insofar as it is generally acknowledged that the U.S. suffers from a "doctor shortage" to the point that proposals to permit nurses and physician assistants and the rest to begin practicing medicine within a certain scope, it is perhaps time to reevaluate how someone becomes a medical doctor, and determine whether all of the requisites are selecting for the best doctor candidates or merely cutting away people who can't master organic chemistry or some other subject which is nevertheless not predictive of being a good doctor.

    My sense is that there is a substantial difference in specialized knowledge between being a general practitioner or dermatologist or Obstetrician versus a neurosurgeon, and I think as long as we don't have enough doctors generally we should try to modernize the selection system to recognize such differences.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  130. @Hibernian
    @Hypnotoad666


    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor.
     
    I took two quarters of Organic Chemistry at Iowa State (I was in Chemical Engineering.) and there's more to it than that. They explain the 3D structures of the molecules. I think that's good for a doctor. I don't trust a doctor who's just committed the Merck medical handbook to memory.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    They explain the 3D structures of the molecules. I think that’s good for a doctor.

    Why?

    • Replies: @epebble
    @ScarletNumber

    A lot of biochemical/physiological processes that occur in human body deal with very large molecules. A part of their reaction mechanism depends on the shape of the molecule. An example is the recent Covid-19 infection. A proper understanding of how the virus enters into the body depends on understanding the shape of the molecule.

    This is the structure of the vehicle on which the virus hitches a ride: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angiotensin-converting_enzyme_2#/media/File:Protein_ACE2_PDB_1r42.png

    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angiotensin-converting_enzyme_2

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  131. @Father Coughlin
    @Paleo Liberal

    Anecdotally, Asian students who receive bad grades in the US go ape-shit sometimes and have their parents, uncles, and even government ministers call the US professor to complain.

    Replies: @Unit472, @J.Ross

    Right, because they don’t think that grades are grades. They think it’s like being denied a table at Dorsa.

    • Agree: Polistra
  132. @Harry Baldwin
    @Jack D

    Ask Amy Wax what kind of protection being a Jewish female offers.

    It's always open season on conservative Jews, just as it's always open season on conservative blacks. You can say the most hateful things about the latter and get away with it.

    Replies: @Vladimir Berkov

    That’s because being a black or Jewish conservative is an acceptable outlet for hate. They are still part of the media and the elite social scene just they are playing the heel. They pose no actual threat to the cathedral.

  133. My college used Inorganic Analysis to do the weeding, so pre-meds could find out halfway through freshman year if they should change majors. There was a lot of math and numbers, and you had to be very precise and careful in the lab to get decent grades and not burn yourself with acid or potassium permanganate. I got good grades and a few holes in my pants and shoes. All I can remember about the first half of Organic was extracting caffeine from tea and changing the essence of fennel seeds to its stereoisomer, oil of peppermint. That didn’t seem as useful to a doctor as a titration.

  134. @Butler T. Reynolds
    If I had a do-over, I wouldn't attend a research university. Those autistic professors are not hired for their teaching abilities. It's only worth the trouble if you are planning to be a research professor yourself. Attend college where you'll learn the most, not someplace where you'll suffer the most and get to brag about it if you survive.

    Replies: @Polistra

    I wouldn’t attend a research university. Those autistic professors are not hired for their teaching abilities.

    That’s quite a broad brush there. Would you consider Princeton and Yale to be research universities? Because they’ve traditionally been known to hire according to teaching ability as much or more than research; most or all of the top profs teach undergraduates; and Harvard, Stanford, and Berkeley have traditionally gone the other way.

  135. @Polistra
    @Technite78


    NYU students urged to ‘run, hide or fight’ as shots ring out
     
    Yeah, I saw that too. Q: Has anyone thought to ask NYU administration exactly what they meant by that tweet?

    Replies: @Peterike, @Technite78, @Charlotte

    It’s the standard advice for dealing with an active shooter situation: run away if you can, hide if you can’t run, and fight if you can’t hide.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Charlotte

    Yes, thanks, only I was wondering how they intend for people to fight against someone armed with a gun and (presumably) not within arm's reach.

  136. @ScarletNumber
    @Hibernian


    They explain the 3D structures of the molecules. I think that’s good for a doctor.
     
    Why?

    Replies: @epebble

    A lot of biochemical/physiological processes that occur in human body deal with very large molecules. A part of their reaction mechanism depends on the shape of the molecule. An example is the recent Covid-19 infection. A proper understanding of how the virus enters into the body depends on understanding the shape of the molecule.

    This is the structure of the vehicle on which the virus hitches a ride:

    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angiotensin-converting_enzyme_2

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @epebble

    This doesn't explain why your local family practitioner needs to know this.

  137. @Muggles
    So if the good Professor was Jewish, a female/trans/gay or not White, he would still be employed?

    That is a good assumption.

    Alternative to firing him, they could offer flunked students a do-over course taught by someone else. See if the results are markedly different.

    One is tempted to assume that today's Gen Z students, addicted to screens, can't comprehend in class information. Or anything much else.

    Are these flunk=outs just stupid/lazy or is the prof here failing to teach them?

    From what he says it is likely that they are used to cramming and coasting, group study and faking using COVID as the generic excuse.

    Good luck with that brain surgery in 20 years. I probably won't be needing it...

    Replies: @Jack D, @Polistra, @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    “One is tempted to assume that today’s Gen Z students, addicted to screens, can’t comprehend in class information. Or anything much else.”

    Nobody under 35 cares to comprehend or understand anything, they are not inquisitive. They don’t want to learn anything remotely useful. They sit around, smoke pot and stare at the you-know-what. We are heading into a dark age. See: The Shallows.

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    I don't often agree with you but I give you props for this.

    Sad to say, but you may be right.

    My only consolation is that older folks have been saying much the same about the younger generation since the ancient Greeks.

    Now we can debate which Dark Age was the worst. Of course calling something bad "dark" nowadays will get you cancelled. But not on Unz.

    One of the dozen points of light still visible.

  138. @ScarletNumber
    @Paleo Liberal

    Why would they need to make such a promise in the first place?

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    So as not to compete with the engineering school they sold.

    Someone else explained that the sold school merged with Brooklyn Poly so when NYU bought Poly they simply acquired their old engineering school. Which I suppose means they couldn’t compete with a school they now owned.

  139. @Bugg
    @Paleo Liberal

    Graduated NYU undergrad biz school in 1986. Has transitioned since from a commuter school to more of a residental campus. In the process has acquired other schools like Polytechnic (an engineering school in downtown Brooklyn) , many buildings for dorms and hospitals across NYC. Arguably NYU now has as much realty in NYC as any private entity other than the Catholic Church.

    But to save $, NYU has forever employed graduate assistants and adjuncts to teach many undergrad courses. None are tenured, and many are foreign born and ESL.Other NY area schools, even less prestigous ones, simply don't do that. Every few years they go on strike to protest their lousy pay.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    Yes, the transformation from a commuter safety school to an elite school started while you were there, with the hiring of John Brademas as NYU President. His plan was to raise $1 billion, raise the tuition to make people think it was a better school, and recruit better students. They had all sorts of full scholarships to attract top notch students. Also, they started recruiting like crazy in Asia. In the early 1990s a Korean friend pointed out a guy at NYU and told me the guy was a big Korean star. I think an actor. It seems he was widely hated by the Koreans at NYU. A few year earlier an NYU frat boy told me that student Chasity Bono always hung out at the frat parties. I couldn’t figure out why, since Chasity was rumored to be a dyke. Now that Chasity is Chaz, maybe it was just to hang out with the guys.

    These days NYU Med has a large enough endowment they are giving free tuition to all their students. Make it the Cooper Union of med schools. I hear these days almost every prospective med student applies to NYU med, so it will soon be the most selective med school in the world.

    • Agree: PiltdownMan, prosa123
    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Paleo Liberal


    These days NYU Med has a large enough endowment they are giving free tuition to all their students. Make it the Cooper Union of med schools. I hear these days almost every prospective med student applies to NYU med, so it will soon be the most selective med school in the world.
     
    Certainly any prospective med school applicant should now consider NYU, unless s/he comes from money, in which case I probably wouldn't bother. Frankly I'd feel guilty taking a paid spot from a poor student and I sort of wonder why they're footing the bill for any rich kids at all..

    I'm also sort of surprised that none of the rival med schools has stepped up likewise. They're all pretty well funded, right? A rival dean could steal NYU's thunder by going one better and not financing rich kids' degrees.

  140. OT — We have no legal system — Tranny found guilty of doing $250M worth of damage, will not see the inside of a prison because the law does not apply to trannies. In other news, hire a tranny, or the Justice Department will sue you.
    https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-tech-worker-paige-thompson-sentenced-in-massive-capitol-one-hack-amazon-web-services-erratic-fbi#

  141. @Paleo Liberal
    NYU is always either #1 or #2 in the country for the number of foreign students admitted. Boston U and Northeastern (on the other side of Fenway Park from BU) are also very high in the list.

    These were schools that used to be where middle class and working class kids from NYC or Boston would attend college, with a mix of students ranging from quite dull to brilliant. The two Boston schools would also get a fair number of Canadians, if they were talented hockey players.

    In order to “upgrade” from lower tier working kids’ schools to elite schools, they all rely heavily on wealthy foreigners.

    Replies: @Father Coughlin, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @guest007, @Hibernian, @Bugg, @BosTex

    Both my wife and I went to Northeastern. She in the 2000s.

    Northeastern changed radically. The number of subcontinentals was incredible.

    This was a school that used to serve (mostly) local kids with a focus on vocational degrees like engineering and engineering technology,
    Business in all its aspects, physical therapy, law enforcement, etc.

    It had radically altered in the 2000s.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @BosTex


    Both my wife and I went to Northeastern. She in the 2000s.

    Northeastern changed radically. The number of subcontinentals was incredible.
     

    The United States is under invasion and you and Steve have your dander up about Russia seeking control over a territory it has legitimate historic claims to. What the hell is wrong with you two?

    Replies: @neutral, @BosTex

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @BosTex

    WTF? I know Northeastern to an extent by having lived in the Boston area nearby for a dozen years, attended a couple of Ring Cycles there, and from all the great computer science stuff done at it, students taught that, etc. It was no MIT EECS, but earned a good reputation in some subfields.

    As you imply It's a complete betrayal of its traditional mission to pack it with subcontinentals who no doubt are paying for their full load and providing a traitorous administration with lots of unrestricted money (most donors don't trust their schools and earmark their donations, and even that's corrupted, see the Princeton Wilson Institute debacle).

    To no doubt for example spiff up the college, it's modest or was as you note, solid but architecture that would not be out of place in a K-12 school system that watched what it spent and got good money for it. In the middle of the last century; I went to such a place in the late 1960s through the 1970s.

    Damn.

    Replies: @Anon, @BosTex, @BosTex, @Brutusale

  142. @prosa123
    Knowing NYU, it's my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.
    Also, it's somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @AndrewR, @fish, @Redman, @PiltdownMan, @Sam Hildebrand

    That’s exactly what I told my liberal friends who all sent me this NYT article thinking I’d be incensed at the liberal lack of standards. What’s up with the ancient folks having such positions of power in America? Do we not know the meaning of retirement anymore? That was my first thought.

    Maybe after the Biden dementia debacle experiment we can get back to reality.

    • Agree: prosa123
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Redman

    Sure, he was 84, an Organic Chemistry Tony La Russa. Still the firing was triggered by the PC complaints of snowflakes.

  143. OT — One of the private companies running our elections (by the way, why is that allowed?) is a Chinese intelligence asset sending protected personal data to Beijing. The NYT wrings it hands over the possibility that this might embolden irresponsible conspiracy theorists.
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/10/huge-truethevote-right-election-company-konnech-ceo-eugene-yu-arrested-los-angeles-theft-personal-data/

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @J.Ross


    One of the private companies running our elections (by the way, why is that allowed?) is a Chinese intelligence asset...
     
    Just one? Dominion Voting Systems is based at 215 Spadina Ave.


    https://tayloronhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/dscn0589_thumb.jpg

    , @Polistra
    @J.Ross


    The NYT wrings it hands over the possibility that this might embolden irresponsible conspiracy theorists.
     
    This is always the risk when something inopportune happens during a Democrat administration. Fortunately we control the vertical....
  144. @Jack D
    @Not Raul

    Some faculty regard teaching (esp. intro undergrad courses) as a burden. Others regard it as their life's work. This guy literally wrote the book on Organic Chem. If he retired, what was he going to do? Watch soap operas?

    Replies: @BosTex

    Nah. He’ll get a job elsewhere, pretty quick.

    This is still a damn disgrace. No one has a right to
    pass a course. Maitland Jones sounds like a hell of a good teacher.

    I think we need to take the stigma out of being weeded out.

    Frankly there is no shame in it. Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.

    I work in a job with a ton of failure (sales). I want to discover likely failures: right away. It lets me focus on where I might succeed.

    • Agree: fish
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @BosTex


    Frankly there is no shame in it. Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.

    I work in a job with a ton of failure (sales). I want to discover likely failures: right away. It lets me focus on where I might succeed.
     
    Interesting comment.

    Replies: @BosTex

    , @PhysicistDave
    @BosTex

    BosTex wrote:


    Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.
     
    The person in my extended family who is a physician loved OChem, especially the lab where you had to figure out the structure of an unknown.

    Thankfully, as a physics major, I did not need to take it: I view OChem as sorta a House of Horrors.

    My best friend from high school did his BS in physics at what is now the Missouri University of Sceince and Technology in Rolla. There, physics majors had to take OChem.

    Which really violates the Constitutional prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment!

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @That Would Be Telling

  145. @prosa123
    Knowing NYU, it's my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.
    Also, it's somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @AndrewR, @fish, @Redman, @PiltdownMan, @Sam Hildebrand

    Knowing NYU, it’s my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.

    It’s also possible that a high percentage of the dismayed students are not Asian, or, at least, not East Asian. East Asian kids are used to academic pressure and having to grind through hard work, the norm for students in the cultures in their countries of origin, as well as in their immigrant families.

    They might be South Asians, though, since many first generation Indian-American kids opt to try to get into medical school, and they tend to be more vocal about, and perhaps more savvy about, using the levers afforded today in the form of complaints about selective discrimination, fairness, and so on.

    I’m just speculating, of course.

    • Replies: @Bramble
    @PiltdownMan

    I agree with you that it's very possible these students aren't East Asian. Just to generalize (and perhaps offend) a little, EA's tend to work hard and also tend to be less vocal. Because of the former, they're more likely to do well and not have to complain. Because of the latter, they're less likely to complain if they do happen to screw up. The exception is rich kids from Asia who are as entitled as any international student (who tend to pay full tuition, donate big $$, etc), but then you're no longer talking typical EA; you're talking about money.

    , @Dan Kurt
    @PiltdownMan

    RE: " East Asian kids are used to academic pressure and having to grind through hard work." PiltdownMan

    I will try to make this short. My son, who has a MS and Ph.D. in Mech. Eng. and now is a staff engineer at one of the really big Defense Contractors as a Rocket Scientist dynamicist, had an experience during his time at a large research university working on his MS. There was a course given every two years in the Applied Math Department that was ranked at Six credit hours--it was considered to be the hardest math class at the university. All types of math and hard science Ph.D. students were encouraged to take the course during their time getting their Ph.D. The course was called Numerical Methods. Two Masters students signed up: my son (against the advice of his advisor) and a Math student. The rest, nearly 125 in number, were Ph.D. students. After drop day there were less than 75 students left in the course. There were two exams in the course, a mid term and final. After the course ended there were two A level grades received by my son and the other Math MS student. There were a handful of B level grades, a double handful of C level ones but more than half of the class received D level or Failed the course.

    About twenty five North Asians as a group protested their grades saying that they never during their education got less than A grades, or some such, that the professor was not a competent teacher, and other excuses. To make a long story short, the dean of the graduate division responsible for math and science asked my son and the other student with A level grade if the professor could use their mid term and final tests to show that there were students who could and did master the material. The professor was upheld by the university and no grades were changed for any of the complaining students who were almost, if not, all from Communist China.

    Dan Kurt

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

  146. @epebble
    @ScarletNumber

    A lot of biochemical/physiological processes that occur in human body deal with very large molecules. A part of their reaction mechanism depends on the shape of the molecule. An example is the recent Covid-19 infection. A proper understanding of how the virus enters into the body depends on understanding the shape of the molecule.

    This is the structure of the vehicle on which the virus hitches a ride: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angiotensin-converting_enzyme_2#/media/File:Protein_ACE2_PDB_1r42.png

    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angiotensin-converting_enzyme_2

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    This doesn’t explain why your local family practitioner needs to know this.

    • Disagree: Hibernian
  147. I see “covid” has been demoted to an unceremonious lowercase spelling now from Steve. It really has been amazing watching the boomers destroy the economy and now act like it was no big deal.

    • Thanks: Je Suis Omar Mateen
  148. OT:
    Paige Thompson, aka “erratic”, the transgender Seattle tech worker who stole 100 million names from Capital One, costing over $250M in damages, has been sentenced in Seattle to a whopping 5 years of probation.

    The judge recognized Paige’s need, as a transgender, for special handling at sentencing:

    During the sentencing hearing Tuesday, U.S. District Judge Robert S. Lasnik said that time in prison would be difficult because of her mental health and the “widely recognized medical, mental, and physical risks she will face in prison as a transgender woman.”

    This is one of the biggest identity theft crimes in US history. Five years’ probation.

  149. Organic chemistry is a crucial course for a college, since it serves as the chief weed-out course for pre-meds…

    One reason for that level of doctoral diligence is that to go to medical school you have to do decently as an undergrad in Organic Chem, which is a really hard course.

    Organic chemistry = Yo! Screaming rich! Marrying choices!

  150. @J.Ross
    OT -- One of the private companies running our elections (by the way, why is that allowed?) is a Chinese intelligence asset sending protected personal data to Beijing. The NYT wrings it hands over the possibility that this might embolden irresponsible conspiracy theorists.
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/10/huge-truethevote-right-election-company-konnech-ceo-eugene-yu-arrested-los-angeles-theft-personal-data/

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Polistra

    One of the private companies running our elections (by the way, why is that allowed?) is a Chinese intelligence asset…

    Just one? Dominion Voting Systems is based at 215 Spadina Ave.

  151. @Paleo Liberal
    @Bugg

    Yes, the transformation from a commuter safety school to an elite school started while you were there, with the hiring of John Brademas as NYU President. His plan was to raise $1 billion, raise the tuition to make people think it was a better school, and recruit better students. They had all sorts of full scholarships to attract top notch students. Also, they started recruiting like crazy in Asia. In the early 1990s a Korean friend pointed out a guy at NYU and told me the guy was a big Korean star. I think an actor. It seems he was widely hated by the Koreans at NYU. A few year earlier an NYU frat boy told me that student Chasity Bono always hung out at the frat parties. I couldn’t figure out why, since Chasity was rumored to be a dyke. Now that Chasity is Chaz, maybe it was just to hang out with the guys.

    These days NYU Med has a large enough endowment they are giving free tuition to all their students. Make it the Cooper Union of med schools. I hear these days almost every prospective med student applies to NYU med, so it will soon be the most selective med school in the world.

    Replies: @Polistra

    These days NYU Med has a large enough endowment they are giving free tuition to all their students. Make it the Cooper Union of med schools. I hear these days almost every prospective med student applies to NYU med, so it will soon be the most selective med school in the world.

    Certainly any prospective med school applicant should now consider NYU, unless s/he comes from money, in which case I probably wouldn’t bother. Frankly I’d feel guilty taking a paid spot from a poor student and I sort of wonder why they’re footing the bill for any rich kids at all..

    I’m also sort of surprised that none of the rival med schools has stepped up likewise. They’re all pretty well funded, right? A rival dean could steal NYU’s thunder by going one better and not financing rich kids’ degrees.

  152. Anonymous[100] • Disclaimer says:
    @BosTex
    @Paleo Liberal

    Both my wife and I went to Northeastern. She in the 2000s.

    Northeastern changed radically. The number of subcontinentals was incredible.

    This was a school that used to serve (mostly) local kids with a focus on vocational degrees like engineering and engineering technology,
    Business in all its aspects, physical therapy, law enforcement, etc.

    It had radically altered in the 2000s.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @That Would Be Telling

    Both my wife and I went to Northeastern. She in the 2000s.

    Northeastern changed radically. The number of subcontinentals was incredible.

    The United States is under invasion and you and Steve have your dander up about Russia seeking control over a territory it has legitimate historic claims to. What the hell is wrong with you two?

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @neutral
    @Anonymous


    What the hell is wrong with you two?
     
    It is simply ersatz nationalism, they yearn to belong to some nation, so they will seek anything that gives them that. The fact that they are supporting the very people that seek to destroy that everywhere seems to escape them.
    , @BosTex
    @Anonymous

    Respectfully bro: you haven’t read my comments about Russia/Ukraine.

    I am definitely in the: mind your business, DGAF, we have plenty of problems here to deal with column with respect to Russia/Ukraine.

  153. Anonymous[100] • Disclaimer says:
    @BosTex
    @Jack D

    Nah. He’ll get a job elsewhere, pretty quick.

    This is still a damn disgrace. No one has a right to
    pass a course. Maitland Jones sounds like a hell of a good teacher.

    I think we need to take the stigma out of being weeded out.

    Frankly there is no shame in it. Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.

    I work in a job with a ton of failure (sales). I want to discover likely failures: right away. It lets me focus on where I might succeed.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @PhysicistDave

    Frankly there is no shame in it. Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.

    I work in a job with a ton of failure (sales). I want to discover likely failures: right away. It lets me focus on where I might succeed.

    Interesting comment.

    • Replies: @BosTex
    @Anonymous

    Thanks.

    There are a lot of really smart people on here. Smarter than me, for sure.

    If you find a comment helpful, by all means, crib it.

    At work: I will literally ask for possibility (can we win? Explain why? Always polite, of course) and try to discover every possible failure point in an rfp/rfq.

    What’s left over is what I can win.

    As a sales rep: I want to know exactly how and where we suck as a company (sometimes that can even mean: we don’t working with you. Don’t be a cry baby, that’s life) decline (very politely) and keep moving.

    That process earns me $300-$500k per year as a sales rep for the last 10 years or so.

    That ain’t bad for poor boy from Boston who has a BA in History. (GPA 3.8: back when that still meant something).

  154. @J.Ross
    OT -- One of the private companies running our elections (by the way, why is that allowed?) is a Chinese intelligence asset sending protected personal data to Beijing. The NYT wrings it hands over the possibility that this might embolden irresponsible conspiracy theorists.
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/10/huge-truethevote-right-election-company-konnech-ceo-eugene-yu-arrested-los-angeles-theft-personal-data/

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Polistra

    The NYT wrings it hands over the possibility that this might embolden irresponsible conspiracy theorists.

    This is always the risk when something inopportune happens during a Democrat administration. Fortunately we control the vertical….

  155. Jones was a highly respected teacher at Princeton.

  156. Given that Organic Chemistry is essentially the chemistry of carbon, and given that carbon is an evil element upon which humanity has declared Holy War, shouldn’t O-Chem simply be banned as an affront to all that is good and righteous?

    • LOL: Prester John
  157. @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Steve Sailer


    It’s actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.
     
    Yea - I suppose if you are cost sensitive it presents a choice of living in the Village for four years as an undergraduate while accumulating debt which would make living in the Village after graduation less likely.

    Hopefully the foreign students get as comically bad idea of "America" from NYU as American students do who "study abroad" in some former imperial European Capital. The American kids who come back from "studying" some remedial material in Rome or London while living in a posh area where a one bedroom flat would be $1.5 Million, eating nightly in restaurants, and seeing the jewels of the former empire daily and say "in Europe, blah blah . . . is better." No, dummies, you just lived in the equivalent of Beverly Hills on "student loan" credit for four months.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson

    There used to be a school near me for Japanese high school kids to do their Year Abroad. Being Japanese, they don’t actually like non-Japanese culture, so it was very insular. One thing I noticed is that affluent Japanese are just about the best dressers in the world lately. You could instantly tell the Japanese kids from the Harvard-Westlake rich kids by how much better they were dressed.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @Steve Sailer

    What if everybody were naked? How could ya tell then?

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

  158. Anon[251] • Disclaimer says:

    … he pioneered a new method of instruction that relied less on rote memorization and more on problem solving …

    In other words the class is closer to an IQ test than a combination IQ minimum threshold plus conscientiousness/grit test. I predict that this caused not only racial diversity problems, but that women also took a hit.

    Most “girls are great at math” research relies on memorized recipe-style problems and not more free-form problems where the very nature of the problem may not be immediately clear. Right-tail guys, many of whom may not have paid much attention in high school, blow away women in this type of class. Test performance differences can be stark and shocking.

    • Replies: @BosTex
    @Anon

    Have to agree: it was probably all the broads, dames, cutie patooties, making the noise.

    They are used to being handed rote problems and when given a problem that is free form, as you say, given a problem where the problem may not even be clear at first read.

    Guys do have a tendency to be able to see what the underlying question/problem is and solve for that.

    Humans are just different that way.

  159. @Anonymous
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)


    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive.
     
    Doesn’t NYU already own most of the land it is on? If so, it is sheltered from high real estate prices.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    NYU sold its campus in the South Bronx (?) and moved to Greenwich Village about 50 years ago. (A smart move.) It doesn’t have a campus like a traditional US college in Thomas Jefferson mode for the U. of Virginia. It’s more like a Parisian college with buildings here and there around Washington Square. It does own a lot of land, but it’s not like Rice U., which has steadily expanded into its vast football stadium parking lot for generations.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Steve Sailer

    NYU already had the downtown campus. It was where the art school and law school were, for example.

    After the sale, there was a lot of tension in many departments between professors who had always been downtown and those who came down from the Bronx. Since in many departments the Bronx campus was considered the superior department, the University Heights professors looked down on the old Washington Square professors. The professors hired when NYU was a more prestigious institution looked down on both.

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Steve Sailer


    Rice U., which has steadily expanded into its vast football stadium parking lot for generations
     
    Since Rice is now a G5 school (the lower-level of the upper tier of college football) they don't draw big crowds for football games any more. Crosstown rival Houston is making the jump to the Big XII next year, creating a chasm between the two schools.
  160. From the NYT article:

    Ryan Xue, who took the course, said he found Dr. Jones both likable and inspiring.

    “This is a big lecture course, and it also has the reputation of being a weed-out class,” said Mr. Xue, who has transferred and is now a junior at Brown. “So there are people who will not get the best grades. Some of the comments might have been very heavily influenced by what grade students have gotten.”

    It’s not often that profs are described as “inspiring,” let alone ones teaching weed-out science classes like organic chem, so this Jones guy must have been pretty good. That, or Xue is one of the few students who is mature, thoughtful, and has a genuine desire to learn. Making it all the more a shame that that NYU lost both of them–Jones to firing, Xue to transferring out.

    Or maybe it’s fitting. This case seems like yet another example of entitled, pampered brats getting their way because mommy has money. Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t think you can pull this off at most other places. I actually took organic chemistry at a state university (Univ Cal system) filled with pre-meds, and while half the class got D’s and F’s, I don’t recall any petitions to get the professor fired or censured in that course or any of the other science classes with comparably harsh curves. People who failed just retook the class either at the university or a nearby community college. There’s simply a different mentality at public schools; students quickly learn that the school doesn’t need you because, for one thing, the money you’re paying is a pittance. By contrast, students at expensive private universities are more likely to feel that they can game the system; after all, that’s how some of them got in to begin with

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Bramble

    I took a biology course at a nothing place once, but I thought the course was great and the professor was great. When the professor offered to answer questions about grading after the final grades were effectively known, I stayed out of sheer curiosity even though I was getting an A and had no complaints. The questions made me quietly slip out after about five minutes, because they weren't questions. There was a subset of kids who simply had not considered what it meant to take a college science course, and they were baffled that they couldn't just buy the grade they needed to qualify for the next level course.
    Or:
    Consider the old, well-circulated video of the agitated black student who loudly, repeatedly demands of his professor to get a particular grade (I forget which) until ejected.

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @Bramble


    There’s simply a different mentality at public schools; students quickly learn that the school doesn’t need you because, for one thing, the money you’re paying is a pittance. By contrast, students at expensive private universities are more likely to feel that they can game the system; after all, that’s how some of them got in to begin with
     
    Or not when I got into MIT except in 20/20 hindsight due to geographic distribution, which I'll bet is no longer a thing for deep Red state flyover country and now JROTC, FFF, 4H etc. are big negatives, and demonstrating I could do projects, an extremely good predictor for success at MIT. Then again Caltech and MIT can't fake it, can't consider legacy admits until the student passes the bar of "can he do the work?" which removes most applicants from the admissions process in its first step.

    More importantly, even if the individual state school student is unimportant and his tuition etc. is small compared to that of a private school's, both are golden to administrators because they're unrestricted, they can spend the money on anything they want. See my numerous comments on how big endowments are often much less than they seem, in this discussion strangely enough most donors don't trust the administration and earmark their funds, and of course they still get cheated. There are many legends about the woman who donated the money for Harvard's main library building, which is awesome....

    I'd also note freshmen are cheap to teach, so admitting a lot and flunking a bunch of them out is likely a financial win. At MIT in the 1980s, about half their tuition ... that radically changed as soon as they got out of the core science requirements and started using labs, $$$$$$$ computers, needed lower TA to student ratios for harder subjects like ... organic chemistry! and so on. MIT also forgoes the overhead tax on undergraduate salaries for research, which of course incentivizes professors to hire them. In my two (unpaid) experiences there was also more than a bit of E.E. 'Doc' Smith's beginning of Galactic Patrol, we worked on hard problems no one had come close to solving.
  161. I’ve written a couple of comments about the revamped MCAT vs when I took it in 2006 or so. In short, the committee (or whatever it was) that was in charge of redoing seriously considered making it pass/fail.

    The old MCAT had 3 sections, Physical Science, Biological Science, and Verbal Reasoning. There was also an essay with a letter grade, scored something like J-T. Each section was scored from 3-15.

    Check out the score conversion table at https://mededits.com/medical-school-admissions/old-mcat-to-new-mcat-score-conversion/ Old scores from 39-45 were in the top percentile of test takers. “The new MCAT is scored on a scale from 472-528 with a mean score of 500. Um, why? You tell someone you got a 3 on the MCAT, it sounds like a low score. You say you scored 480 and the max was 528, it sounds like you did at least ok. Why not a minimum score of zero, a mean of 28, and a max of 56? Then, a score of 8 sounds like the low score that it is.

    I understand that there is no true zero to these sorts of numbers, but c’mon. Heck, set the mean for 100 and the sd to 15. Or the mean to zero and the sd whatever, say 24! That way, your negative score sounds terrible! That has much to recommend it. It’s harder to hide strong bias that way. Maybe people with negative scores would be too embarrassed to g9 to med school?

    I can totally see a reckoning coming for higher and lower education, and probably the department of education when Republicans control Congress and the Presidency (assuming this is possible) might the chopping block extend to medicine? If we ever go single-payer, there is a lot of bureaucracy in healthcare that’d be on the chopping block.

    You know the idea that instead of doing half-assed compromises that never work we should work towards trading off really big things cons want for really big things progs want. Like, such a ban on “assault-style” rifles in exchange for no more immigrants ever. Or trades where they get to keep something, but in exchange, it applies to men and whites. Perhaps, affirmative action stays, but boys and men get it in healthcare, education, administration, and literacy, or HEAL, according to Richard V Reeves in Of Boys and Men. He’s interviewed in the Atlantic here.

  162. @PiltdownMan
    @prosa123


    Knowing NYU, it’s my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.
     
    It's also possible that a high percentage of the dismayed students are not Asian, or, at least, not East Asian. East Asian kids are used to academic pressure and having to grind through hard work, the norm for students in the cultures in their countries of origin, as well as in their immigrant families.

    They might be South Asians, though, since many first generation Indian-American kids opt to try to get into medical school, and they tend to be more vocal about, and perhaps more savvy about, using the levers afforded today in the form of complaints about selective discrimination, fairness, and so on.

    I'm just speculating, of course.

    Replies: @Bramble, @Dan Kurt

    I agree with you that it’s very possible these students aren’t East Asian. Just to generalize (and perhaps offend) a little, EA’s tend to work hard and also tend to be less vocal. Because of the former, they’re more likely to do well and not have to complain. Because of the latter, they’re less likely to complain if they do happen to screw up. The exception is rich kids from Asia who are as entitled as any international student (who tend to pay full tuition, donate big $$, etc), but then you’re no longer talking typical EA; you’re talking about money.

  163. @Anon
    Organic chemistry is not hard to reason your way through. The problem is, it requires massive amounts of memorization. In anything even remotely connected to the biological sciences these days, the demand on your memory is massive. It's getting to the point where only really gifted students are going to be the ones passing the premed courses. But then again, no one who isn't gifted has any business being a doctor.

    Blacks and Hispanics just don't have the biological programming to acquire massive amounts of information and retain it the way whites do.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @R.G. Camara

    Blacks and Hispanics just don’t have the biological programming to acquire massive amounts of information and retain it the way whites do.

    Why didn’t you capitalize Whites?

  164. @Zoos
    @Jack D


    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible.
     
    I don’t think that’s true. Although the entire bell curve for Black IQ heaves to the left of Whites, Asians, and Jews, it’s still a bell curve, and those blacks on the right side with a 120 IQ or more probably adds up to around 15 million.

    The black bell curve reliably shifting leftward compared to the above mentioned is enough of a social and economic problem without misrepresenting the problem as even worse than it is.

    Replies: @James B. Shearer, @International Jew, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Jack D

    “I don’t think that’s true. ..”

    So what do you think the correct number is?

    • Replies: @Zoos
    @James B. Shearer


    So what do you think the correct number is?
     
    I gave you my best guess that’s probably in the ballpark.

    Point being, the claim that almost no blacks can handle med school can’t be true, and uselessly obfuscates what the real problem is: that blacks who occupy the left side of the bell curve, and are statistically overrepresented there, are likely headed to prison, or somehow wards of the state, since once they get below an IQ of 85, there’s few employment opportunities they will be qualified for, and there’s enough of them on the left side of the curve to create perpetual, dreadful problems in a modern society. That fundamental problem is not going away unless science finds a way. That's not gonna be anytime soon.

    The real question is the the question that everyone who finally becomes a believer in the science of measuring IQ poses:

    "Well… what do we do now?"

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Jack D

  165. Searched the thread and found no “Kanye”….oh here he is.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Polistra

    White people were too pussy to proclaim that. Instead with their pleading of “All Lives Matter.” Pathetic.

    Oh, and the ADL has determined that White Lives Matter constitutes hate speech.

    https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/white-lives-matter

  166. @PartridgeBro
    OC offers essentially nothing useful to the physician providing patient care. Perhaps to MD PhDs who focus on research and should have just skipped the MD anyway. The only useful undergrad courses for physicians are in biology and to a much lesser extent, biochemistry and molecular biology. Most undergrad and even med school curriculum is useless to the average physician. It's all a huge waste of time and money. Give rising HS freshmen an IQ test or stand-in and those who excel could be academically prepared to be a good doctor by HS graduation. Nobody wants 18 yo docs though and for good reason, even if you also screen for desirable personality characteristics. Maybe put them through a paid apprenticeship where they gain experience learning how to interact with patients for a few years then onto internship and residency. Probably have them better prepared by age 25 without debt, while the current system delays it to age 30+ while going deeply in debt.

    As a previous commenter noted, OC is basically the IQ plus conscientiousness screen in microcosm that standardized test plus GPA now assesses. You can't cram. You must be able to figure out novel problems on the spot, repeatedly. This is exactly what you want in a doctor. So, though clinically irrelevant, it is a great "weed out" for potential MDs.

    Unlike most undergrad classes, where basically everyone scores between 70-100, in OC it is not unusual for an 80 to be an A, or a 65 a B. This unnecessarily freaks out kids who have never gotten less than a 90, even though they will still get an A or B. Very few students will outright fail the class. Even if you get a C, med school admissions doesn't disqualify a student based only on that one grade. If the GPA and MCAT are in order, you'll still get in. Undergrads are too anxious about this class. Yes, it's hard. But put in some work, pass it, attend to your other classes and MCAT, which is now watered down, and you'll be fine. In the past, doing badly in OC was more a marker that you weren't going to cut it on the MCAT, so better to bail now than waste another 1-2 years down a dead end path.

    Replies: @Houston 1992

    1)one wonders if the petition list will eventually leak. The petitioners to have an adjunct fired may find that admission committees will be alert to their apps

    2) Those who earned poor grades still have to earn/ acquire a good grade for the OC class so just getting it removed from their transcript and re-taking the course if still on the pre-med path was a good option.

  167. @Inverness
    @Paleo Liberal

    That "old Bronx campus" had some stunning neoclassical buildings! Too bad about the location. I'm sure it was quite pleasant a hundred years ago.


    https://untappedcities.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/New-York-University-Gould-Memorial-Library-Bronx-Community-Collge-NYC-2.jpg

    Replies: @Ralph L, @prosa123, @Hibernian

    I believe that’s a Stanford White design.

  168. OT, but this weirdly grating:

    https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/british-couple-slain-fed-to-crocodiles-cops

    »A British couple was kidnapped, murdered and fed to crocodiles while searching a nature reserve in South Africa for rare seeds, a court heard Tuesday. Horticulturist Rod Saunders, 74, and his wife, microbiologist Dr. Rachel Saunders, 63, were camping in the remote Ngoye Forest Reserve when they disappeared in February 2018, the Daily Mail reported. …

    Police now say that Sayefundeen Aslam Del Vecchio, his wife, Bibi Fatima Patel, and their tenant Mussa Ahmad Jackson kidnapped, robbed and murdered the couple on the night of Feb. 10, the same day they were reported missing.

    Among the evidence presented in Durban High Court this week were text messages from Del Vecchio to Patel and Jackson stating that there was an elderly couple nearby to “target” for a “hunt.” …

    Another message to an unknown person said “it is very important that the body of the victims is never found.” Del Vecchio and Patel, who are believed to have flown an Islamic State flag at their home, were already on a watchlist when they were arrested on Feb. 15, 2018.«

  169. @Polistra
    https://i.ibb.co/DDmRJy6/Screenshot-20221005-025441-Daily-Mail-Online.jpg

    Searched the thread and found no "Kanye"....oh here he is.

    Replies: @Anon

    White people were too pussy to proclaim that. Instead with their pleading of “All Lives Matter.” Pathetic.

    Oh, and the ADL has determined that White Lives Matter constitutes hate speech.

    https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/white-lives-matter

  170. @Jack D
    @Muggles

    The only thing that would have protected him was being black or maybe trans. Nowadays, being Jewish or female or gay (or even all three together) offers no protection against the Woke. Ask Amy Wax what kind of protection being a Jewish female offers. Nada. Zip.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @neutral

    She still has her job, so very well protected.

  171. @Anonymous
    @BosTex


    Both my wife and I went to Northeastern. She in the 2000s.

    Northeastern changed radically. The number of subcontinentals was incredible.
     

    The United States is under invasion and you and Steve have your dander up about Russia seeking control over a territory it has legitimate historic claims to. What the hell is wrong with you two?

    Replies: @neutral, @BosTex

    What the hell is wrong with you two?

    It is simply ersatz nationalism, they yearn to belong to some nation, so they will seek anything that gives them that. The fact that they are supporting the very people that seek to destroy that everywhere seems to escape them.

    • Thanks: YetAnotherAnon
  172. @James B. Shearer
    @Zoos

    "I don’t think that’s true. .."

    So what do you think the correct number is?

    Replies: @Zoos

    So what do you think the correct number is?

    I gave you my best guess that’s probably in the ballpark.

    Point being, the claim that almost no blacks can handle med school can’t be true, and uselessly obfuscates what the real problem is: that blacks who occupy the left side of the bell curve, and are statistically overrepresented there, are likely headed to prison, or somehow wards of the state, since once they get below an IQ of 85, there’s few employment opportunities they will be qualified for, and there’s enough of them on the left side of the curve to create perpetual, dreadful problems in a modern society. That fundamental problem is not going away unless science finds a way. That’s not gonna be anytime soon.

    The real question is the the question that everyone who finally becomes a believer in the science of measuring IQ poses:

    “Well… what do we do now?”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Zoos


    since once they get below an IQ of 85, there’s few employment opportunities they will be qualified for, and there’s enough of them on the left side of the curve to create perpetual, dreadful problems in a modern society.
     
    What are examples of some jobs you can do at an IQ of 85 or below? Amazon and the Internet have created a lot of jobs for packing, loading, driving, and delivery type services.

    Replies: @International Jew

    , @Jack D
    @Zoos


    Point being, the claim that almost no blacks can handle med school can’t be true,
     
    Eppur si muove.

    Absent affirmative action, med school enrollment would be somewhere around 1 or 2% black. The left shift has even more profound consequences on the right tail.

    Replies: @Anon

  173. OT

    On September 4, around the time when US Navy helicopters were circling over what would be the NordStream explosion sites off Bornholm, a private Cessna jet crashed between Bornholm and the Latvian coast.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11180987/Ghost-plane-pilot-named-German-businessman-private-jet-crashed-Baltic-Sea.html

    NATO jets scrambled to intercept the plane which stopped responding to controllers’ calls after problems were reported in the cabin.

    German and Danish warplanes were sent up to observe the aircraft as it flew blind over northern Europe on Sunday afternoon but were unable to spot anybody on board, possibly because they had passed out.

    The family was in southern Spain where they own a lavish holiday home and they were returning to their main house in Cologne.

    Mr Griesmann was also head of the Griesmann Group, based in Cologne and specialising in construction projects and large industrial plants, and was president of the annual Cologne carnival, one of the largest in Germany.

    ‘I can confirm that it was the private jet of our owner, Karl-Peter Griesemann,’ said a spokesperson for Quick Air.

    Some anons online are claiming the company had a contract to maintain NS2, but I can’t find any evidence of this. And one site “Teller Report” says it’s not true, fwiw. Odd happenstance though.

    • Replies: @FPD72
    @YetAnotherAnon

    The Karl-Peter Griesemann crash brought to mind the death of golf great Payne Stewart, in which all aboard a Lear Jet died of hypoxia. The plane flew Northwest until it ran out of fuel and crashed in South Dakota, just months after Stewart’s victory in the 1999 US Open.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

  174. @Bramble
    From the NYT article:

    Ryan Xue, who took the course, said he found Dr. Jones both likable and inspiring.

    "This is a big lecture course, and it also has the reputation of being a weed-out class," said Mr. Xue, who has transferred and is now a junior at Brown. "So there are people who will not get the best grades. Some of the comments might have been very heavily influenced by what grade students have gotten."
     

    It's not often that profs are described as "inspiring," let alone ones teaching weed-out science classes like organic chem, so this Jones guy must have been pretty good. That, or Xue is one of the few students who is mature, thoughtful, and has a genuine desire to learn. Making it all the more a shame that that NYU lost both of them--Jones to firing, Xue to transferring out.

    Or maybe it's fitting. This case seems like yet another example of entitled, pampered brats getting their way because mommy has money. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think you can pull this off at most other places. I actually took organic chemistry at a state university (Univ Cal system) filled with pre-meds, and while half the class got D's and F's, I don't recall any petitions to get the professor fired or censured in that course or any of the other science classes with comparably harsh curves. People who failed just retook the class either at the university or a nearby community college. There's simply a different mentality at public schools; students quickly learn that the school doesn't need you because, for one thing, the money you're paying is a pittance. By contrast, students at expensive private universities are more likely to feel that they can game the system; after all, that's how some of them got in to begin with

    Replies: @J.Ross, @That Would Be Telling

    I took a biology course at a nothing place once, but I thought the course was great and the professor was great. When the professor offered to answer questions about grading after the final grades were effectively known, I stayed out of sheer curiosity even though I was getting an A and had no complaints. The questions made me quietly slip out after about five minutes, because they weren’t questions. There was a subset of kids who simply had not considered what it meant to take a college science course, and they were baffled that they couldn’t just buy the grade they needed to qualify for the next level course.
    Or:
    Consider the old, well-circulated video of the agitated black student who loudly, repeatedly demands of his professor to get a particular grade (I forget which) until ejected.

  175. I see that this guy is 84
    Would any other ( so called ) Western country have 84 year old college teachers ? ( yes I realise that maybe eminent scholars might still be hanging around the place but for routine undergraduate teaching? )
    Americans seem to just not retire . I guess for many this is for financial reasons but for others surely because they just have very little if anything else in their life but work? No hobbies ,other interests ? No grandchildren to care for ?

    Not sure how this is a good thing for the society at large ( and the USA is not exactly a world leader in lengthy lifespans )

    • Replies: @Anon
    @sb

    Der literally Ewige Boomer.

    , @Paleo Liberal
    @sb

    There are a number of elderly people who want to phase into retirement. This includes professionals who go from working insane hours to sane hours to few hours to none. For example my grandfather was an attorney who went from working all day every day to just taking the more interesting and lucrative cases to none at all.

    This is more common in Asian societies, and would probably be beneficial if it were more common in the US.

    There are a number of tenured professors who pretty much give up on their research in their later years and just teach a course or two. Quiet quitting of sorts. In this case the professor retired from an insane workload at Princeton and took on a much more relaxed workload at NYU. He could just do the teaching he loved and forget about the research.

    In earlier times the big organic textbook was Morrison and Boyd, who were both NYU professors. At one point they realized they were making far more money from their book than from their professor work. They retired and just worked on new editions of their book. Morrison went down to Florida and Boyd stayed in NYC. At that point NYU stopped using their book. I used to run across Boyd at times in NYC. Great guy to talk to. The remaining NYU professors pretty much shunned Morrison and Boyd after they retired. Jealousy perhaps.

    Replies: @prosa123

  176. @Zoos
    @Jack D


    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible.
     
    I don’t think that’s true. Although the entire bell curve for Black IQ heaves to the left of Whites, Asians, and Jews, it’s still a bell curve, and those blacks on the right side with a 120 IQ or more probably adds up to around 15 million.

    The black bell curve reliably shifting leftward compared to the above mentioned is enough of a social and economic problem without misrepresenting the problem as even worse than it is.

    Replies: @James B. Shearer, @International Jew, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Jack D

    those blacks on the right side with a 120 IQ or more probably adds up to around 15 million.

    That’s wildly off the mark. 120 is 2⅓ standard deviations above the Black mean. Plug that into here…
    https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/normal
    and you get 1%. 1% of our roughly forty million Blacks is 400,000.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @International Jew

    But if you take 85 as mean for the whole of Africa (2 billion people) you'll get 20m Africans with 120+ IQs. Admittedly not all of these will actually have had any post-primary education.

    Don't tell Liz Truss, she will want them all here for "muh economy".

  177. @Anonymous
    @BosTex


    Frankly there is no shame in it. Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.

    I work in a job with a ton of failure (sales). I want to discover likely failures: right away. It lets me focus on where I might succeed.
     
    Interesting comment.

    Replies: @BosTex

    Thanks.

    There are a lot of really smart people on here. Smarter than me, for sure.

    If you find a comment helpful, by all means, crib it.

    At work: I will literally ask for possibility (can we win? Explain why? Always polite, of course) and try to discover every possible failure point in an rfp/rfq.

    What’s left over is what I can win.

    As a sales rep: I want to know exactly how and where we suck as a company (sometimes that can even mean: we don’t working with you. Don’t be a cry baby, that’s life) decline (very politely) and keep moving.

    That process earns me $300-$500k per year as a sales rep for the last 10 years or so.

    That ain’t bad for poor boy from Boston who has a BA in History. (GPA 3.8: back when that still meant something).

  178. @Anon

    … he pioneered a new method of instruction that relied less on rote memorization and more on problem solving …
     
    In other words the class is closer to an IQ test than a combination IQ minimum threshold plus conscientiousness/grit test. I predict that this caused not only racial diversity problems, but that women also took a hit.

    Most “girls are great at math” research relies on memorized recipe-style problems and not more free-form problems where the very nature of the problem may not be immediately clear. Right-tail guys, many of whom may not have paid much attention in high school, blow away women in this type of class. Test performance differences can be stark and shocking.

    Replies: @BosTex

    Have to agree: it was probably all the broads, dames, cutie patooties, making the noise.

    They are used to being handed rote problems and when given a problem that is free form, as you say, given a problem where the problem may not even be clear at first read.

    Guys do have a tendency to be able to see what the underlying question/problem is and solve for that.

    Humans are just different that way.

  179. @dearieme
    In my experience (a million years ago) attending lectures on Organic Chemistry was deadly dull. On t'other hand doing the corresponding synthesis lab was great fun. Since I thrived in that lab I must assume that some of the content of the dismal lectures had lodged in my brain.

    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn't have been based simply on directed reading and lab work. But my classmates insisted that lectures were necessary. I suspect they were right, but why? Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?

    Replies: @fish, @Dave from Oz, @Reg Cæsar, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @PhysicistDave, @Rob

    Presumably, lectures do allow students to ask questions of the instructor in order to clarify hard to understand topics covered in the lectures. Some of the questions asked will, of course, reflect the dullness or laziness of the student; others might reflect the poor delivery methods of content by the instructor or a poorly written textbook and others may simply reflect on the usefulness of a little back and forth between the student and the teacher.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Jim Bob Lassiter

    In classes with 350 students, nobody asks questions. They save the questions and ask their TAs in recitation sections.

  180. @Anonymous
    @BosTex


    Both my wife and I went to Northeastern. She in the 2000s.

    Northeastern changed radically. The number of subcontinentals was incredible.
     

    The United States is under invasion and you and Steve have your dander up about Russia seeking control over a territory it has legitimate historic claims to. What the hell is wrong with you two?

    Replies: @neutral, @BosTex

    Respectfully bro: you haven’t read my comments about Russia/Ukraine.

    I am definitely in the: mind your business, DGAF, we have plenty of problems here to deal with column with respect to Russia/Ukraine.

  181. @R.G. Camara
    @Hypnotoad666


    It’s out of my expertise, but it seems pretty implausible that memorizing a bunch of chemical reactions is really a necessary condition to going to med school or being a competent practising doctor
     
    I really don't know how you can say this. Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them --which is what organic chemistry teaches -- is absolutely essential for every doctor. This is fundamental, because it will tell them things like which medications are going to interact poorly with the immune system or a patient or which implant is best. I certainly want a doctor who passed orgo, since I don't want him giving me a prescription for a medication that will kill me.

    Replies: @Meretricious, @ic1000, @Bill Jones, @Jack D, @Renter

    “Mechanism of action is poorly understood”

  182. @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    There used to be a school near me for Japanese high school kids to do their Year Abroad. Being Japanese, they don't actually like non-Japanese culture, so it was very insular. One thing I noticed is that affluent Japanese are just about the best dressers in the world lately. You could instantly tell the Japanese kids from the Harvard-Westlake rich kids by how much better they were dressed.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter

    What if everybody were naked? How could ya tell then?

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Jim Bob Lassiter

    I lived in Hawaii for a short time. It got to where I could tell the difference between a Japanese tourist and a local Japanese in a few seconds or less. Not just the way they dressed, but their entire demeanor. Not to mention the locals were darker, having spent more time in the tropical sun.

    I knew some Japanese foreign students. They were more Americanized (or Honoluluized) than the tourists but still acted somewhat Japanese.

    They tended to dress more American but not as downscale as the locals.

    So there are still often ways to tell the difference between a Japanese National and a Japanese American. The Japanese Americans just act more American.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter

  183. @dearieme
    In my experience (a million years ago) attending lectures on Organic Chemistry was deadly dull. On t'other hand doing the corresponding synthesis lab was great fun. Since I thrived in that lab I must assume that some of the content of the dismal lectures had lodged in my brain.

    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn't have been based simply on directed reading and lab work. But my classmates insisted that lectures were necessary. I suspect they were right, but why? Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?

    Replies: @fish, @Dave from Oz, @Reg Cæsar, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @PhysicistDave, @Rob

    dearieme wrote:

    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn’t have been based simply on directed reading and lab work. But my classmates insisted that lectures were necessary. I suspect they were right, but why? Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?

    I took two years of courses, which were really a bit above my level, from Richard Feynman because he was a really great lecturer.

    I also heard Luis Alvarez give a lecture on the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs before he and his colleagues had published their results: word went out among the grad students at Stanford that Luis was coming across the Bay and had something important to talk about. Absolutely brilliant lecture: we were all stunned and completely convinced that they had nailed it.

    A great lecturer can really make a subject come alive.

    The problem of course is that, by and large, you do not become a university prof by being a great lecturer. Not all that many rise to the level even of mediocrity. The system does need to change.

    • Replies: @David Davenport
    @PhysicistDave

    I also heard Luis Alvarez give a lecture on the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs before he and his colleagues had published their results: word went out among the grad students at Stanford that Luis was coming across the Bay and had something important to talk about. Absolutely brilliant lecture: we were all stunned and completely convinced that they had nailed it.

    A great lecturer can really make a subject come alive.


    Long lectures are basically pre-Gutenberg. You listen to a long university lecture, some approaching 1:30 minutes in non-stop length, and frantically take notes because ... why?

    Because before the Gutenberg, there were none or not many books to buy, and no Youtube containing worthwhile 12 to 15 minute lectures on an array of science and mathematics topics, some of them quite abstruse. These lectures can be played over and over, or stopped to take notes, or played faster or slower.

    Long university lectures as standard fare are obsolete. Lecturers such as Richard Feynman can indeed be inspiring, but my experience has been that most U. lectures are not inspiring.

    I agree with Jack D. that I could seldom really absorb what the professor was saying if I was business taking notes on everything the prof. said. @ Jack D

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

  184. @YetAnotherAnon
    OT

    On September 4, around the time when US Navy helicopters were circling over what would be the NordStream explosion sites off Bornholm, a private Cessna jet crashed between Bornholm and the Latvian coast.

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/09/05/10/62050455-11180987-image-m-18_1662371950280.jpg

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11180987/Ghost-plane-pilot-named-German-businessman-private-jet-crashed-Baltic-Sea.html


    NATO jets scrambled to intercept the plane which stopped responding to controllers' calls after problems were reported in the cabin.

    German and Danish warplanes were sent up to observe the aircraft as it flew blind over northern Europe on Sunday afternoon but were unable to spot anybody on board, possibly because they had passed out.

    The family was in southern Spain where they own a lavish holiday home and they were returning to their main house in Cologne.

    Mr Griesmann was also head of the Griesmann Group, based in Cologne and specialising in construction projects and large industrial plants, and was president of the annual Cologne carnival, one of the largest in Germany.

    'I can confirm that it was the private jet of our owner, Karl-Peter Griesemann,' said a spokesperson for Quick Air.
     

    Some anons online are claiming the company had a contract to maintain NS2, but I can't find any evidence of this. And one site "Teller Report" says it's not true, fwiw. Odd happenstance though.

    Replies: @FPD72

    The Karl-Peter Griesemann crash brought to mind the death of golf great Payne Stewart, in which all aboard a Lear Jet died of hypoxia. The plane flew Northwest until it ran out of fuel and crashed in South Dakota, just months after Stewart’s victory in the 1999 US Open.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @FPD72

    Payne Stewart died on October 25.

    A few days later, in the wee hours of Halloween morning, the captain of an EgyptAir 767 en route from New York to Cairo left the cockpit to use the toilet. The co-pilot said a quick prayer and then initiated a nosedive into the ocean. The plane hit the water about 60 miles off Nantucket. There were no survivors.

  185. @BosTex
    @Jack D

    Nah. He’ll get a job elsewhere, pretty quick.

    This is still a damn disgrace. No one has a right to
    pass a course. Maitland Jones sounds like a hell of a good teacher.

    I think we need to take the stigma out of being weeded out.

    Frankly there is no shame in it. Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.

    I work in a job with a ton of failure (sales). I want to discover likely failures: right away. It lets me focus on where I might succeed.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @PhysicistDave

    BosTex wrote:

    Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.

    The person in my extended family who is a physician loved OChem, especially the lab where you had to figure out the structure of an unknown.

    Thankfully, as a physics major, I did not need to take it: I view OChem as sorta a House of Horrors.

    My best friend from high school did his BS in physics at what is now the Missouri University of Sceince and Technology in Rolla. There, physics majors had to take OChem.

    Which really violates the Constitutional prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment!

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @PhysicistDave


    Thankfully, as a physics major, I did not need to take it: I view OChem as sorta a House of Horrors.
     
    You are not entirely wrong. Derek "Things I Won't Work With" Lowe devotes some of his blog postings to various details of that; here's my favorite of things he'll work with:

    Let me speak metaphorically, for those outside the field or who have never had the experience. Total synthesis of a complex natural product is like. . .it's like assembling a huge balloon sculpture, all twists and turns, knots and bulges, only half of the balloons are rubber and half of them are made of blown glass. And you can't just reach in and grab the thing, either, and they don't give you any pliers or glue. What you get is a huge pile of miscellaneous stuff - bamboo poles, cricket bats, spiral-wound copper tubing, balsa-wood dowels, and several barrels of even more mixed-up junk: croquet balls, doughnuts, wadded-up aluminum foil, wobbly Frisbees, and so on.

    The balloon sculpture is your molecule. The piles of junk are the available chemical methods you use to assemble it. Gradually, you work out that if you brace this part over here in a cradle of used fence posts, held together with turkey twine, you can poke this part over here into it in a way that makes it stick if you just use that right-angled metal doohicky to hold it from the right while you hit the top end of it with a thrown tennis ball at the right angle. Step by step, this is how you proceed. Some of the steps are pretty obvious, and work more or less the way you pictured them, using things that are on top of one of the junk piles. Others require you to rummage through the whole damn collection, whittling parts down and tying stuff together to assemble some tool that you don't have, maybe something that no one has ever made at all.
     
    But for someone with physical intuition but much weaker at math than you, the right sort of memory and being both a wordcel and shape-rotator it's what revealed chemistry was my calling.

    Note for the above, in first term organic chemistry you're at least expected to understand all sorts of details about the molecules in questions, how their different parts behave which feeds into the above sorts of synthesis, and the most fun is in the "natural" bit, that implies is has one or more chiral centers, generally a carbon atom bonded tetrahedrally to four other atoms which has a "handiness," is by convention "right" or "left" handed, dextro/d-/'+" or levo/l-/"." Note for example we can only? usefully? take up left handed amino acids to then synthesize proteins.

    So when you do reactions on chiral reagents, you have to be very careful to maintain that handiness and not produce a racemic mixture that's 50/50 of each.... And I'll have more to say about this topic in my next post because of an amazing result in this year's chemistry Nobel which was just announced.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @PhysicistDave

    OK, this is amazing and I think rare to be almost unheard of, a researcher getting a second Nobel in the same general field he got his first. One of the three awardees this year is Karl Barry Sharpless, who at the beginning of his first lecture in second term organic chemistry confidently told he us he'd get a Nobel as he did a decade later and just by himself (it was shared with another for something different).

    OK, he wasn't arrogant to my observation, but by then in our stage of learning organic from an institution with a very strong chemical engineering department, all he had to do was to tell us how he'd figured out how to create (almost entirely) cheap chiral reagents from achiral ones, a holy grail vs. starting with natural product. If he lived long enough it was blatantly obvious he'd get the award, and was also the sort of thing that allowed him to walk away from what I'm pretty sure was a tenured position at MIT.

    Actually seems to have serious wanderlust, after his postdocs MIT -> Standford -> back to MIT -> Scripts Research Institute -> Kyushu University. Scripts is where he started his click chemistry work—I wonder if this has anything to do with intellectual property policies, MIT's is that unless you do it on your one day a week do your own thing we allow you, we own it but may give you some of the proceeds. MIT was also either still horrible about licensing IP, as in just plain incompetent, slow and pettifogging focusing "on the mechanics," or that was a recent memory and perhaps reasonable expectation after the office was in theory reformed.

    So apparently starting about the same time another #%(*# white male Dane independently developed a click reaction which per Wikipedia Sharpless "referred to this cycloaddition as 'the cream of the crop' of click chemistry and 'the premier example of a click reaction.'" He developed a new field of again intensely practical chemistry, named it, etc. This time he shares his part with the Dane, while a woman got an award for something mostly different which I'm not qualified to discern the quality of. Although "she discovered that viruses can bind to sugars in the body" is certainly in that direction.

    I'm sure it's a complete coincidence she's a lesbian (actually very possibly is, real scientists care about the science, not so much the package). Her award though sounds like it's in the pattern that I think it was Derek Lowe who observed the Nobel Chemistry Prize, his field of course, had become a second Medicine (Biology) award.

    Then again, glycobiology is very important, for example the naturally although I'm not sure vaccine manufactured COVID SPIKE PROTEIN!!! incorporates some sugars. In something I've never heard of but obviously happens she and her fellow Ph.D. candidates had to finish their work at U.C. Berkeley without a supervisor when he got colon cancer and then enrolled in med school. She founded her own field of bioorthogonal chemistry, "any chemical reaction that can occur inside of living systems without interfering with native biochemical processes" per Wikipedia and also per that and common sense includes click reactions.

  186. stillCARealist [AKA "ForeverCARealist"] says:
    @The Wobbly Guy
    @War for Blair Mountain

    I teach chemistry in Singapore at the pre-university level... but the content I teach is equivalent to university 1st and 2nd year content.
    https://www.seab.gov.sg/docs/default-source/national-examinations/syllabus/alevel/2022syllabus/9729_y22_sy.pdf

    There's much more to organic chemistry than mere memorization.

    There's synthesis - e.g. how do you get from compound A to compound B?

    Explanation - e.g. why is compound C more acidic than compound D?

    Mechanisms - e.g. why does compound E react this way when compound F reacts THAT way?

    And finally, the type of question my students hate the most, structural elucidation - here's unknown compound G. Here are some observations of its reactions and features. Figure out its structure.

    I can say I'm a damn good chemistry teacher - my students have consistently gotten value-added results, which is to say I've gotten them to score better than the system predicted them to be.

    As for its applicability to medicine... well, some of the stuff is relevant, but I also think it's really just a filter/weeding out process. Where organic chemistry is really relevant is probably more the pharmacy side.

    As for teaching it online, well, I guess as a child of the IT revolution I had no problems adapting to remote learning. Heck, I pioneered it in my school and pushed for more blended style learning, which paid huge dividends with covid. Got some nifty performance bonuses out of it too.

    To teach using zoom, all I need is a random name generator (used excel for it), a tablet laptop where I can draw on the screen, MS One Note, and maybe chemsketch. Heck, I did zoom teaching for almost all of 2020 and it went fine. Keep calling students, get them to answer, tell them to flash their written answers and hold it up on screen, or whatsapp me so I can put it up.

    But it works only for a smaller class, maybe 30, tops. Larger groups, harder to keep them on task, but that's where the pedagogy comes in and you've got to spice it up periodically with videos and other activities.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @War for Blair Mountain

    Interesting.

    I confess: when I took it 30+ years ago I didn’t learn much from the lectures. Most of my learning came from discussing it with the TA and the sharp tacks in the class. There were students in there, all of 19 years old, who could expatiate grandly on reaction mechanisms. It was awe-inspiring and I listened eagerly to their questions and answers. Almost like Jesus at the temple when he was 12.

    My suspicion is that some students are taking classes in HS that are college level and getting a head start on this stuff. They know early on how bright they are and go leaping ahead of everybody else. I’d like to see more of this and less of the accommodation of whining slackers in college.

  187. My memory of organic Chem is that it is a bunch of wrote learning.

    Nothing particularly difficult.

    Now. Physical Chemistry -that was a tough course.

    Explain using mathematics why you can’t unfry an egg (20 points)

    The exam was only 2 questions long.

  188. @Jack D
    @Corvinus


    Add in the neo cons, Jews, and Deep State, Me. Sailer.
     
    OK, no problem.

    "Which bodes ill for future patients, such as, well, the neo cons, Jews, Deep State, Me, Sailer and us all."

    Replies: @Rob, @BosTex

    Seriously, I cannot stop laughimg at this.

  189. @R.G. Camara
    @Rob


    There’s a lot of room for verbal intelligence in medicine. I’d take a doctor with 140 verbal IQ and 100 mathematical* than the other way around.
     
    Within the last 10 years they've added a reading comprehension section on the MCAT (the exam you take to get into med school). Far from being easy, its actually quite difficult, because the passages given are extremely-dense technical analyses, but not in science topics (e.g. in art or music or law or literary criticism), so the kids reading it are unfamiliar with the topics. And this section is a full 1/4 of the exam score, so you can't just breeze through it. And surprisingly, among Canadian med schools, it is this reading comprehension section that is the #1 weighted factor. In other words, blow this section, and Canadian med schools won't look at you, even if you get a perfect score on the science sections.

    However, they haven't worked out all the bugs yet, since a lot of the time of the 4 multiple choice answers at least 2 can be argued to be "correct", so its really a judgment call about what the question-writer believed was truest. Given that medicine is, you know, about getting the one correct answer to fix the patient, this section needs to be shored up so that there clearly is one correct answer.

    I’ve heard orthopedic surgery residencies like athletes a lot.
     

    Orthopedic surgeons are the most bro-tastic of all surgeons. They're basically ex-jocks who either had the brains to go with the brawn, or were over-compensating athletes who tried to be Rudy's, or else got injured themselves (and thus got really into the minutia of the surgeries that fixed them). They basically compete on who can work the most hours and do the most complex surgeries. It's very alpha male/frat house. Lots of white guys chest bumping when they nail something.

    Replies: @Rob, @Paleo Liberal

    Re; Canadian schools weighing verbal heavily.

    There’s a ton of reading in medicine. To top that, vocabulary is the top (top 2?) subtext that correlates best with g. It might be possible to cram one’s way to perfect scores on the bio bases of behavior (bet they don’t cover the breeder’s equation!) or science sections, but memorizing enough to nail the verbal part is a Rainman-tier feat.

  190. @dearieme
    In my experience (a million years ago) attending lectures on Organic Chemistry was deadly dull. On t'other hand doing the corresponding synthesis lab was great fun. Since I thrived in that lab I must assume that some of the content of the dismal lectures had lodged in my brain.

    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn't have been based simply on directed reading and lab work. But my classmates insisted that lectures were necessary. I suspect they were right, but why? Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?

    Replies: @fish, @Dave from Oz, @Reg Cæsar, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @PhysicistDave, @Rob

    In my experience (a million years ago) attending lectures… Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?

    I think these two things are related. We have a lot more evolutionary experience learning from listening than from reading. If you had had another million years of evolution under your belt back in college, you would have gotten much more from lectures.

  191. Anonymous[373] • Disclaimer says:
    @Zoos
    @James B. Shearer


    So what do you think the correct number is?
     
    I gave you my best guess that’s probably in the ballpark.

    Point being, the claim that almost no blacks can handle med school can’t be true, and uselessly obfuscates what the real problem is: that blacks who occupy the left side of the bell curve, and are statistically overrepresented there, are likely headed to prison, or somehow wards of the state, since once they get below an IQ of 85, there’s few employment opportunities they will be qualified for, and there’s enough of them on the left side of the curve to create perpetual, dreadful problems in a modern society. That fundamental problem is not going away unless science finds a way. That's not gonna be anytime soon.

    The real question is the the question that everyone who finally becomes a believer in the science of measuring IQ poses:

    "Well… what do we do now?"

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Jack D

    since once they get below an IQ of 85, there’s few employment opportunities they will be qualified for, and there’s enough of them on the left side of the curve to create perpetual, dreadful problems in a modern society.

    What are examples of some jobs you can do at an IQ of 85 or below? Amazon and the Internet have created a lot of jobs for packing, loading, driving, and delivery type services.

    • Replies: @International Jew
    @Anonymous

    You could do some aspects of my job with an 85 IQ.

  192. General Chemistry itself is a weed out course, and you have to get through that to even be allowed to take Organic, so I imagine Organic must be pretty tough. Chemistry, Calculus, and Physics were the big weed out courses at the engineering-heavy state university I went to, But even they’ve slacked off a bit. Calculus was a five-hour course when I went there – now it’s four. And the engineering department only requires one semester of Chem instead of two for the general prerequisites.

  193. @R.G. Camara
    @Rob


    There’s a lot of room for verbal intelligence in medicine. I’d take a doctor with 140 verbal IQ and 100 mathematical* than the other way around.
     
    Within the last 10 years they've added a reading comprehension section on the MCAT (the exam you take to get into med school). Far from being easy, its actually quite difficult, because the passages given are extremely-dense technical analyses, but not in science topics (e.g. in art or music or law or literary criticism), so the kids reading it are unfamiliar with the topics. And this section is a full 1/4 of the exam score, so you can't just breeze through it. And surprisingly, among Canadian med schools, it is this reading comprehension section that is the #1 weighted factor. In other words, blow this section, and Canadian med schools won't look at you, even if you get a perfect score on the science sections.

    However, they haven't worked out all the bugs yet, since a lot of the time of the 4 multiple choice answers at least 2 can be argued to be "correct", so its really a judgment call about what the question-writer believed was truest. Given that medicine is, you know, about getting the one correct answer to fix the patient, this section needs to be shored up so that there clearly is one correct answer.

    I’ve heard orthopedic surgery residencies like athletes a lot.
     

    Orthopedic surgeons are the most bro-tastic of all surgeons. They're basically ex-jocks who either had the brains to go with the brawn, or were over-compensating athletes who tried to be Rudy's, or else got injured themselves (and thus got really into the minutia of the surgeries that fixed them). They basically compete on who can work the most hours and do the most complex surgeries. It's very alpha male/frat house. Lots of white guys chest bumping when they nail something.

    Replies: @Rob, @Paleo Liberal

    I’ve heard that orthopedic surgeons take out insurance on their hands. A high percentage get injured during their residency. Not sure why

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Paleo Liberal

    "A high percentage get injured during their residency. Not sure why"

    I imagine that, like butchers and carpenters, using very sharp implements daily carries injury hazard, and you can't protect yourself with chainsaw gloves!

    Orthopaedics I understand needs strength as well as skill. Applying strength to sharp things probably carries more risk than say brain surgery.

    I thought in the UK a lot of brain surgery tools were destroyed (melted down) after single use now - the risk of prions surviving autoclaving is too great. Prions seem hard to destroy. But apparently not so.

    https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/IPG666/InformationForPublic


    "for the procedures covered by this guidance, single use instruments cannot be recommended to reduce the risk of CJD transmission; this is because the evidence shows they are not cost effective"
     

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  194. @PiltdownMan
    @War for Blair Mountain

    In my undergraduate years as a math major, the first encounter with group theory weeded out 60 out of 86 students who had declared intentions to major in pure and applied math. A lot of high school hotshots in mathematics who were good at algebra and calculus who had aspirations to become mathematicians found the kind of thinking required to successfully tackle and deal with mathematical structure, and finite mathematics in general, utterly alien and very hard to do.

    I think organic chemistry is unexpectedly hard for many pre-meds and chemistry undergrads for the same reason. It's about structure, especially spacial structure, and requires very different cognitive skills to master, as compared to the topics in chemistry they may have encountered previously.

    It also doesn't help that many an undergrad takes it at just the point where they've settled into college and are sophomores or juniors, and their dance cards are full, both socially and academically. Few have the wisdom and time planning skills to jettison what is inessential in their college lives and buckle down to tackle it.

    For those going to medical school, it does serve as a means to weed out pre-meds, but a full blown organic chemistry undergrad course is really designed for chemistry majors, and is almost certainly has way more information than most doctors need. An easier "Organic Chemistry for Pre Med" would work just as well, pedagogically speaking.

    But it would not serve the purpose of weeding out students who don't have the capacity to pull it together and work hard, an essential skill in a medicals student, resident, or hospital doctor.

    As many have pointed out above, a good strategy is to take it in the summer—even with a summer job, there is ample time for a college student in those two or three months to focus on the subject, and grind through it and learn it well.

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @War for Blair Mountain, @Brutusale

    Piltdown Man

    I saw the same thing….Some people…lots of People just seemed to hit a wall at abstract algebra-group theory. I loved Abstract Algebra-Group Theory…So many real world interesting applications to boot. I have this beautiful book-with lots of beautiful pictures by the late GREAT John Conway(‘the Monster Group-Leech Latice) on Groups…..Of course, Groups have deep and beautiful applications in Chemistry….Physics….Theoretical Computer Science…..Seriuosly, Group Theory is the language of Mathematics and Physics….You would be surprised how many math puzzles can be solved with group theory…….

    The classification of finite simple groups is a breath-taking achievement of the human mind(along with the Thompson-Fiet Odd order theorem……Interestingly, The Odd Order theorem was solved using Character Theory which has very important applications in Chemistry…probably in Organic Chemistry…I mean, what is Organic Chemistry other than the study of symmetry and using symmetry to classify molecules….Crystallography is Finite Group Theory…..

    The Ribric’s Cube….the solution is a interesting application of the commutator…really intersting…

    • Agree: PiltdownMan
  195. @PiltdownMan
    @War for Blair Mountain

    In my undergraduate years as a math major, the first encounter with group theory weeded out 60 out of 86 students who had declared intentions to major in pure and applied math. A lot of high school hotshots in mathematics who were good at algebra and calculus who had aspirations to become mathematicians found the kind of thinking required to successfully tackle and deal with mathematical structure, and finite mathematics in general, utterly alien and very hard to do.

    I think organic chemistry is unexpectedly hard for many pre-meds and chemistry undergrads for the same reason. It's about structure, especially spacial structure, and requires very different cognitive skills to master, as compared to the topics in chemistry they may have encountered previously.

    It also doesn't help that many an undergrad takes it at just the point where they've settled into college and are sophomores or juniors, and their dance cards are full, both socially and academically. Few have the wisdom and time planning skills to jettison what is inessential in their college lives and buckle down to tackle it.

    For those going to medical school, it does serve as a means to weed out pre-meds, but a full blown organic chemistry undergrad course is really designed for chemistry majors, and is almost certainly has way more information than most doctors need. An easier "Organic Chemistry for Pre Med" would work just as well, pedagogically speaking.

    But it would not serve the purpose of weeding out students who don't have the capacity to pull it together and work hard, an essential skill in a medicals student, resident, or hospital doctor.

    As many have pointed out above, a good strategy is to take it in the summer—even with a summer job, there is ample time for a college student in those two or three months to focus on the subject, and grind through it and learn it well.

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @War for Blair Mountain, @Brutusale

    Since I mentioned the classification of Finite Groups….and the Rubic’s Cube:The symmetry group that characterizes the Rubi’s Cube twiddling is on the the list of The Classification Theorem…one of the exotic type of finite groups……

  196. @Paleo Liberal
    @Jonathan Mason

    No.

    As I mentioned in a comment on another post, the problem is that a certain percentage of pre-meds are to be filtered out in every filtering class. Too few and the med school acceptance rate gets too low. Too many and the total accepted goes down. Also, having a number of students pass first semester organic is required to provide students for second semester organic and more advanced chemistry and biology classes.

    The balance was broken by some combination of the professor, the students, and COVID. The professor is the one who can be fired.

    Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy

    I remember a friend from undergrad took that class and said it was not as impossibly hard as she had been led to believe. The kicker is that most medical schools want you to have at least a B in Organic. Getting a B both semesters is probably a much taller order than simply passing.

  197. @sb
    I see that this guy is 84
    Would any other ( so called ) Western country have 84 year old college teachers ? ( yes I realise that maybe eminent scholars might still be hanging around the place but for routine undergraduate teaching? )
    Americans seem to just not retire . I guess for many this is for financial reasons but for others surely because they just have very little if anything else in their life but work? No hobbies ,other interests ? No grandchildren to care for ?

    Not sure how this is a good thing for the society at large ( and the USA is not exactly a world leader in lengthy lifespans )

    Replies: @Anon, @Paleo Liberal

    Der literally Ewige Boomer.

  198. @Inverness
    @Paleo Liberal

    That "old Bronx campus" had some stunning neoclassical buildings! Too bad about the location. I'm sure it was quite pleasant a hundred years ago.


    https://untappedcities.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/New-York-University-Gould-Memorial-Library-Bronx-Community-Collge-NYC-2.jpg

    Replies: @Ralph L, @prosa123, @Hibernian

    One feature of the old Bronx campus is the Hall of Fame of Great Americans, a collection of about 100 busts of US historical figures. Bronx Community College now owns the campus and the HoF and has quite an inconsistent policy on visiting the latter. Although it’s ostensibly open to visitors during specified hours the guards at the campus gate sometimes turn away people for no reason.

  199. @Zoos
    @Jack D


    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible.
     
    I don’t think that’s true. Although the entire bell curve for Black IQ heaves to the left of Whites, Asians, and Jews, it’s still a bell curve, and those blacks on the right side with a 120 IQ or more probably adds up to around 15 million.

    The black bell curve reliably shifting leftward compared to the above mentioned is enough of a social and economic problem without misrepresenting the problem as even worse than it is.

    Replies: @James B. Shearer, @International Jew, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Jack D

    Is that number worldwide or for American blacks only?

    Incidentally, my dad (a former Econ professor) told me the smartest student he ever taught was an Igbo from Nigeria. I’ve heard some things about how that tribe may be more specifically selected for intelligence – kind of like the upper castes in India. If they had been successful in breaking away from the rest of Nigeria in the 60s, we’d probably have the closest thing to a real-life Wakanda.

  200. @International Jew
    @Zoos


    those blacks on the right side with a 120 IQ or more probably adds up to around 15 million.
     
    That's wildly off the mark. 120 is 2⅓ standard deviations above the Black mean. Plug that into here...
    https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/normal
    and you get 1%. 1% of our roughly forty million Blacks is 400,000.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    But if you take 85 as mean for the whole of Africa (2 billion people) you’ll get 20m Africans with 120+ IQs. Admittedly not all of these will actually have had any post-primary education.

    Don’t tell Liz Truss, she will want them all here for “muh economy”.

  201. @PiltdownMan
    @War for Blair Mountain

    In my undergraduate years as a math major, the first encounter with group theory weeded out 60 out of 86 students who had declared intentions to major in pure and applied math. A lot of high school hotshots in mathematics who were good at algebra and calculus who had aspirations to become mathematicians found the kind of thinking required to successfully tackle and deal with mathematical structure, and finite mathematics in general, utterly alien and very hard to do.

    I think organic chemistry is unexpectedly hard for many pre-meds and chemistry undergrads for the same reason. It's about structure, especially spacial structure, and requires very different cognitive skills to master, as compared to the topics in chemistry they may have encountered previously.

    It also doesn't help that many an undergrad takes it at just the point where they've settled into college and are sophomores or juniors, and their dance cards are full, both socially and academically. Few have the wisdom and time planning skills to jettison what is inessential in their college lives and buckle down to tackle it.

    For those going to medical school, it does serve as a means to weed out pre-meds, but a full blown organic chemistry undergrad course is really designed for chemistry majors, and is almost certainly has way more information than most doctors need. An easier "Organic Chemistry for Pre Med" would work just as well, pedagogically speaking.

    But it would not serve the purpose of weeding out students who don't have the capacity to pull it together and work hard, an essential skill in a medicals student, resident, or hospital doctor.

    As many have pointed out above, a good strategy is to take it in the summer—even with a summer job, there is ample time for a college student in those two or three months to focus on the subject, and grind through it and learn it well.

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @War for Blair Mountain, @Brutusale

    • Replies: @AKAHorace
    @Brutusale

    The dummies books are well written and for those who are trying to learn. A lot of science textbooks are written to impress other profs.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  202. @EddieSpaghetti
    If you cannot handle Organic Chemistry, how are you going to handle residency? In most cases, a student being "weeded out" early from a professional path that they are not suited for is hugely beneficial to that student.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Graveldips

    I’ve known a ton of people who started out as pre-meds and were vastly happier after leaving the pre-med program. Organic kills a lot of dreams, but in many cases those dreams were nightmares.

  203. @Houston 1992
    @Kaz

    hmm try the Sadoway class MIT OCW.

    btw there is some very specific feedback on what Jones might have been doing wrong.
    https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1052652

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    btw there is some very specific feedback on what Jones might have been doing wrong.
    https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1052652

    They’re not useful. I’ve read the whole set of student reviews of a MIT professor who completely blew teaching a course outside of his specialty that he nonetheless understands and cares about along with caring very much about teaching well, then listened in an adjacent office as the department sat him down and made him read every one and then tell him he’d never be allowed to teach the course again (MIT really cares about undergraduate education and being an adequate instructor is required to get tenure).

    These reviews are all over the place, although there may be some false ones, I read too many that fit a template of “I was playing [varying] video game during the real time lectures, but the book etc. was fine to learn the material.” They’re what you’d expect from an inherently tough subject for which a large fraction simply don’t have what it takes, as we’ve been told from NYU being a premier premed school that nonetheless weeds out a lot of those on that track.

    And if every lecture makes you cry, you’re definitely not got what’s required to be a life and death doctor, what will you did when you lose patients? What when that’s because you made an acceptable but tragic mistake?

    Since the textbook is his writing, its the same as listening to his lectures.

    That’s clearly not the case unless he’d suffered enough age induced cognitive decline for that and some of the other claimed bad behavior drove some of this 2022 debacle that ended with his being fired.

    Turns out I learned first term under a professor who was the coauthor of the book, the other author was instead of research one a premed oriented one at a selective but much less college. I assure you a good lecturer can do a lot better than repeat what’s in his book. My favorite anecdote he related was about a chemical plant using the pot method that suddenly had their yields of a product go to hell. They couldn’t figure out what was going on and finally resorted to 24×7 video camera surveillance. Which revealed a janitorial type was relieving himself into the “pot.”

    Obviously this wouldn’t be interesting except for the fact that guy was getting old and working fewer nights and the bad yields happened when he didn’t do this. Something in his urine complexed with a contaminant and allowed it to be removed, the company’s problem was that they didn’t fully understand the real process they were using to make it.

    And he otherwise augmented and helped us understand the material that again was pretty much all in his book, which circumstances forced me to learn alone from for the end of the semester. Note though I’m not a representative example for the body of students who take organic and especially the premeds, was science track and am both a wordcel and shape-rotator.

    • LOL: Rob
    • Replies: @Rob
    @That Would Be Telling

    To be clear, I'm loling at the chemical plant anecdote. Gonna save that one.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    , @Anon
    @That Would Be Telling


    They’re what you’d expect from an inherently tough subject for which a large fraction simply don’t have what it takes, as we’ve been told from NYU being a premier premed school that nonetheless weeds out a lot of those on that track.
     
    Since when is NYU a premier premed school?
    , @James B. Shearer
    @That Would Be Telling

    "... My favorite anecdote he related was about a chemical plant using the pot method that suddenly had their yields of a product go to hell. .."

    I suspect this is an urban legend. In the version I heard it was a Swiss gold company that wondered why their gold had lost its special luster. And the recently retired employee responsible hated the company.

  204. @JohnnyWalker123
    Organic chemistry is an insanely difficult course. Lots of these kids are used to getting A+/4.0 GPAs their entire life. So it's a shock when they get a B/3.0 in tough college classes.

    You have to remember that different universities often have WILDLY different standards for grading. Some universities will give A+/4.0 grades to the majority of students in a class, while other universities set the curve at B/3.0 (sometimes even lower a B-/2.7).

    When you try to get your first job, employers will scrutinize your GPA. If you apply to graduate school (MD, DDS, MBA, etc), employers will HEAVILY scrutinize your GPA.

    So one bad O-Chem grade can often mean the difference between becoming a $200K/yr doctor and becoming a $70K/yr lab assistant.

    It makes sense for these students to be taking advantage of the situation to lower grading standards. If anything, I'm surprised that this didn't happen decades ago.

    Lots of prestigious Ivy League universities actually grade surprisingly easy. So it's not surprising that these kids, who are high-achieving and often have elite parents, want the same privilege.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    You have to remember that different universities often have WILDLY different standards for grading. Some universities will give A+/4.0 grades to the majority of students in a class, while other universities set the curve at B/3.0 (sometimes even lower a B-/2.7).

    And sufficiently selective schools don’t grade on the curve at all because that would be a total disservice to their students. They instead grade on mastery of the material which of course is more or more difficult work for the instructor and his TAs, and if a student has chosen a suitable major he’ll be earning As and Bs for almost all the courses for his major. Weasel word because that wonderful first term organic teacher I’ve been mentioning, a tenured MIT professor? He said he knew very few colleagues who hadn’t totally bombed at least one class.

  205. @Jack D
    @R.G. Camara


    Basically, this system is designed to allow you to actively listen without stenography,
     
    This is what I did during my entire educational career. I never took notes. If you are taking notes you can't be processing what you are hearing. If I needed notes I would get them from someone else (I usually didn't). In law school this was very systematized where certain people would prepare and circulate detailed class outlines.

    The fact that the class is on Zoom doesn't change this at all. Of course some people have the memory retention of a flea so if they don't write it down it's not available for recall later. But you can't memorize something that you never processed to begin with. When you take notes what you are hearing goes directly from your ear to your hand without really going thru your higher processing facilities - you might as well be taking down Swahili phonetically.

    Replies: @Ganderson, @scrivener3

    I only took notes to help me stay awake.

    Re: online classes- online can be a good way to learn stuff that you really want to learn- not so good for required classes. I’d also add that there’s nothing like a really good lecturer spinning his (mostly his) yarns in person, but for the average run of college professors it probably doesn’t matter whether it’s live or if it’s Memorex.

    As an aside, I used to teach AP US History (to high schoolers) online, and was surprised to notice that the pupils’ exam scores were way higher in the online section than my f2f (a little remote education lingo) classes. I realized, after “chatting” with a few of the on-liners that they mostly took the class as a review!

    Oh, and in my last year of teaching high school I was called to the principal’s office because my grades were too low.

    My reputation among the students was “take Ganderson’s class if you don’t care about getting an ‘A’ “

  206. @Jack D
    @Corvinus


    Add in the neo cons, Jews, and Deep State, Me. Sailer.
     
    OK, no problem.

    "Which bodes ill for future patients, such as, well, the neo cons, Jews, Deep State, Me, Sailer and us all."

    Replies: @Rob, @BosTex

    Just re-read it again. That is
    Pretty dang funny.

  207. @Tony Lawless
    I noticed cheating on a Zoom-administered test here in Seoul, for English studies. The students were asked to identify a passage from a short story that we had read in class. The students took the passage and Googled it. Luckily, what came up was the title of the short story collection rather than the title of the short story. In this way, I was able to figure out that 3/4 of the class had either not read the short story or were crap at cheat-Googling.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    What did you do after you discovered the cheating?

  208. @Paleo Liberal
    @R.G. Camara

    I’ve heard that orthopedic surgeons take out insurance on their hands. A high percentage get injured during their residency. Not sure why

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    “A high percentage get injured during their residency. Not sure why”

    I imagine that, like butchers and carpenters, using very sharp implements daily carries injury hazard, and you can’t protect yourself with chainsaw gloves!

    Orthopaedics I understand needs strength as well as skill. Applying strength to sharp things probably carries more risk than say brain surgery.

    I thought in the UK a lot of brain surgery tools were destroyed (melted down) after single use now – the risk of prions surviving autoclaving is too great. Prions seem hard to destroy. But apparently not so.

    https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/IPG666/InformationForPublic

    “for the procedures covered by this guidance, single use instruments cannot be recommended to reduce the risk of CJD transmission; this is because the evidence shows they are not cost effective”

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @YetAnotherAnon


    I thought in the UK a lot of brain surgery tools were destroyed (melted down) after single use now – the risk of prions surviving autoclaving is too great. Prions seem hard to destroy. But apparently not so.

    https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/IPG666/InformationForPublic

    “for the procedures covered by this guidance, single use instruments cannot be recommended to reduce the risk of CJD transmission; this is because the evidence shows they are not cost effective”
     

     
    NICE is the Orwellian named National Institute for Health and Care Excellence which has a major role in rationing medical care for the people stuck in the National Health System. Here they're just saying they don't want to spend the money for one use and then dispose instruments. Above that bullet item in the list they're taking various chances in cleaning multiple use items, like keep the instruments moist and segregated before cleaning.
  209. @Unit472
    @Father Coughlin

    15 years ago I ordered some GPS jammers from China. They also blocked 3G phone service and police radios. I just wanted to bloc GPS signals to keep worthless public sector administrators from ''timing'' how long it took me to do a job since they promised they would never do that and it was just for our safety but it was apparent that was all they were doing and to use the little pocket units to shut down cellphones so I could have someones undivided attention since they requested the appointment.

    Anyway I got a bigger more powerful unit and found I could turn off cellphones at busy intersections so when the left turn arrow was green people would notice and drive instead of talking on the phone and make everyone miss the light.

    The Chinese instruction manual was amusing though since it specifically stated blocking cell and internet traffic was useful in the school setting to prevent students from cheating. I hadn't thought of that but maybe todays teachers should demand schools require them in examination rooms.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    My daughter recently took the nurse’s test (and passed!). It’s an adaptive test. They did some kind of biometric authentication before they let her in the door.

  210. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    NYU sold its campus in the South Bronx (?) and moved to Greenwich Village about 50 years ago. (A smart move.) It doesn't have a campus like a traditional US college in Thomas Jefferson mode for the U. of Virginia. It's more like a Parisian college with buildings here and there around Washington Square. It does own a lot of land, but it's not like Rice U., which has steadily expanded into its vast football stadium parking lot for generations.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @ScarletNumber

    NYU already had the downtown campus. It was where the art school and law school were, for example.

    After the sale, there was a lot of tension in many departments between professors who had always been downtown and those who came down from the Bronx. Since in many departments the Bronx campus was considered the superior department, the University Heights professors looked down on the old Washington Square professors. The professors hired when NYU was a more prestigious institution looked down on both.

  211. @njguy73
    @Known Fact

    There seems to be this misconception that mechanical aptitude and technological aptitude are one and the same. One uses kinesthetic intelligence, the other mathematical.

    Replies: @Known Fact

    I don’t even think it’s a misconception anymore, because we’ve all become used to seeing people function so naturally in certain areas and yet remain clueless or just unable to adapt in others. And vice versa. Computer literacy is just one glaring modern example.

    We also know now that people really do learn differently, as we see in this debate over distance classes vs in-person classes, books vs. spoken lectures and so on. So likewise people also perform differently from one skill set to another, mechanical vs. mathematical being one example as you say. Even “renaissance men” can have a blind spot or Achilles Heel, as in the example of my father

  212. Simples — NYU sees its students as paying customers, and the customer is always right. Either the parents are paying, or a racist/for blacks & browns/ scholarship is paying. Student might (yeah right!) be working. Student might be taking out loans. Nonetheless, they are customers.

    These not so smart students see Professor Maitland as an obstacle to them becoming inferior doctors, or in other careers. So Maitland is out! I believe another University will pick him up, but then he will prolly have to relocate. Which sounds like a good idea — “Escape From New York” — Home of the random homeless and crazed rapists and assaulters of color.

  213. @sb
    I see that this guy is 84
    Would any other ( so called ) Western country have 84 year old college teachers ? ( yes I realise that maybe eminent scholars might still be hanging around the place but for routine undergraduate teaching? )
    Americans seem to just not retire . I guess for many this is for financial reasons but for others surely because they just have very little if anything else in their life but work? No hobbies ,other interests ? No grandchildren to care for ?

    Not sure how this is a good thing for the society at large ( and the USA is not exactly a world leader in lengthy lifespans )

    Replies: @Anon, @Paleo Liberal

    There are a number of elderly people who want to phase into retirement. This includes professionals who go from working insane hours to sane hours to few hours to none. For example my grandfather was an attorney who went from working all day every day to just taking the more interesting and lucrative cases to none at all.

    This is more common in Asian societies, and would probably be beneficial if it were more common in the US.

    There are a number of tenured professors who pretty much give up on their research in their later years and just teach a course or two. Quiet quitting of sorts. In this case the professor retired from an insane workload at Princeton and took on a much more relaxed workload at NYU. He could just do the teaching he loved and forget about the research.

    In earlier times the big organic textbook was Morrison and Boyd, who were both NYU professors. At one point they realized they were making far more money from their book than from their professor work. They retired and just worked on new editions of their book. Morrison went down to Florida and Boyd stayed in NYC. At that point NYU stopped using their book. I used to run across Boyd at times in NYC. Great guy to talk to. The remaining NYU professors pretty much shunned Morrison and Boyd after they retired. Jealousy perhaps.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @Paleo Liberal

    There are a number of tenured professors who pretty much give up on their research in their later years and just teach a course or two. Quiet quitting of sorts. In this case the professor retired from an insane workload at Princeton and took on a much more relaxed workload at NYU. He could just do the teaching he loved and forget about the research.

    That makes sense as a general rule. What does not make sense is having Jones teach such a vitally important course, one that can change the trajectory of student lives in a way no other can.

  214. @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Steve Sailer


    It’s actually a pretty cheap way to live in the romantic comedy capital of the USA for for a few years.
     
    Yea - I suppose if you are cost sensitive it presents a choice of living in the Village for four years as an undergraduate while accumulating debt which would make living in the Village after graduation less likely.

    Hopefully the foreign students get as comically bad idea of "America" from NYU as American students do who "study abroad" in some former imperial European Capital. The American kids who come back from "studying" some remedial material in Rome or London while living in a posh area where a one bedroom flat would be $1.5 Million, eating nightly in restaurants, and seeing the jewels of the former empire daily and say "in Europe, blah blah . . . is better." No, dummies, you just lived in the equivalent of Beverly Hills on "student loan" credit for four months.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson

    Not only that, but most who come back from “study” abroad programs can’t even say “the pencils are on the desk”, or “can you direct me to the railway station”? in said country’s language.

  215. @That Would Be Telling
    @Houston 1992


    btw there is some very specific feedback on what Jones might have been doing wrong.
    https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1052652
     
    They're not useful. I've read the whole set of student reviews of a MIT professor who completely blew teaching a course outside of his specialty that he nonetheless understands and cares about along with caring very much about teaching well, then listened in an adjacent office as the department sat him down and made him read every one and then tell him he'd never be allowed to teach the course again (MIT really cares about undergraduate education and being an adequate instructor is required to get tenure).

    These reviews are all over the place, although there may be some false ones, I read too many that fit a template of "I was playing [varying] video game during the real time lectures, but the book etc. was fine to learn the material." They're what you'd expect from an inherently tough subject for which a large fraction simply don't have what it takes, as we've been told from NYU being a premier premed school that nonetheless weeds out a lot of those on that track.

    And if every lecture makes you cry, you're definitely not got what's required to be a life and death doctor, what will you did when you lose patients? What when that's because you made an acceptable but tragic mistake?

    Since the textbook is his writing, its the same as listening to his lectures.
     
    That's clearly not the case unless he'd suffered enough age induced cognitive decline for that and some of the other claimed bad behavior drove some of this 2022 debacle that ended with his being fired.

    Turns out I learned first term under a professor who was the coauthor of the book, the other author was instead of research one a premed oriented one at a selective but much less college. I assure you a good lecturer can do a lot better than repeat what's in his book. My favorite anecdote he related was about a chemical plant using the pot method that suddenly had their yields of a product go to hell. They couldn't figure out what was going on and finally resorted to 24x7 video camera surveillance. Which revealed a janitorial type was relieving himself into the "pot."

    Obviously this wouldn't be interesting except for the fact that guy was getting old and working fewer nights and the bad yields happened when he didn't do this. Something in his urine complexed with a contaminant and allowed it to be removed, the company's problem was that they didn't fully understand the real process they were using to make it.

    And he otherwise augmented and helped us understand the material that again was pretty much all in his book, which circumstances forced me to learn alone from for the end of the semester. Note though I'm not a representative example for the body of students who take organic and especially the premeds, was science track and am both a wordcel and shape-rotator.

    Replies: @Rob, @Anon, @James B. Shearer

    To be clear, I’m loling at the chemical plant anecdote. Gonna save that one.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Rob

    Yeah, it's a keeper along with:


    "[Favorable equilibrium combined with high energy barrier] is generally the case with high explosives. Explosives without this barrier are not likely to store well. A company which makes these is likely to go out of business unexpectedly."
     
    And damn it, COVID killed him in May 2020, granted at age 83 and "after a battle with dementia."
  216. @Inverness
    @Paleo Liberal

    That "old Bronx campus" had some stunning neoclassical buildings! Too bad about the location. I'm sure it was quite pleasant a hundred years ago.


    https://untappedcities.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/New-York-University-Gould-Memorial-Library-Bronx-Community-Collge-NYC-2.jpg

    Replies: @Ralph L, @prosa123, @Hibernian

    There were once estates in the Bronx, still are (small ones) in Riverdale. That campus originally was one. Another one was owned by William B. Ogden, native of a town in the Catskills, who had made his fortune in Chicago as the main promoter of the Chicago and Northwestrn Railroad. (Now part of the Union Pacific.)

  217. @Zoos
    @Jack D


    Everyone is talking around the fact that organic chemistry is the kind of course that 99% of blacks, even AA admitted blacks to NYU, find impossible.
     
    I don’t think that’s true. Although the entire bell curve for Black IQ heaves to the left of Whites, Asians, and Jews, it’s still a bell curve, and those blacks on the right side with a 120 IQ or more probably adds up to around 15 million.

    The black bell curve reliably shifting leftward compared to the above mentioned is enough of a social and economic problem without misrepresenting the problem as even worse than it is.

    Replies: @James B. Shearer, @International Jew, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Jack D

    I didn’t misrepresent nuffin. You OTOH with your 15 million blacks above 120 I Q are blatantly lying or else you are incredibly misinformed and living in some Wakanda fantasy world.

  218. @Meretricious
    @R.G. Camara

    Dude, all you have to do is read the CONTRAINDICATIONS in the prescribing info (or the Drug Interactions)--LOL. No orgo needed

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    Please tell me you’re joking.

  219. @Technite78
    @R.G. Camara


    NYU, unfortunately, does not have a campus per se — there is no quad, no bucolic area that is clearly a “college”.
     
    I think most NYU students would consider Washington Square Park their "quad/bucolic area". 10 years ago, it was sanitized of most crime and homelessness, and was a great area for students to hang out. Since the pandemic... homelessness, open drug use, prostitution, and violent crime have returned.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    A lot of urban Unis, mostly Catholic, have small campuses with mini-quads. Not sure if University of Illinois / Chicago has one. De Paul, Loyola, and the U of C do; U of C also has a lot of old buildings on the north side of a very wide City owned boulevard. (This includes the buildings on the south side of the quad.) Increasingly there have been new buildings on the south side of the boulevard (Midway Plaisance) since the Law School established itself there in the ’50s or ’60s.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Hibernian

    Fordham, a Catholic university in Da Bronx, has a shockingly beautiful quad-campus in the middle of a craphole Bronx neighborhood.

  220. @Anon
    Organic chemistry is not hard to reason your way through. The problem is, it requires massive amounts of memorization. In anything even remotely connected to the biological sciences these days, the demand on your memory is massive. It's getting to the point where only really gifted students are going to be the ones passing the premed courses. But then again, no one who isn't gifted has any business being a doctor.

    Blacks and Hispanics just don't have the biological programming to acquire massive amounts of information and retain it the way whites do.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @R.G. Camara

    Organic chemistry is not hard to reason your way through. The problem is, it requires massive amounts of memorization. In anything even remotely connected to the biological sciences these days, the demand on your memory is massive.

    The popular flash card programs currently available for computers/cellphones are, actually, kind of a new hack of memory, since they not only allow you to make flashcards you can take on the go, but they also space the repetition of them out at set intervals that correspond to most memory studies. Thus, if you’re doing your daily review, they’ll keep them hidden for a week, spring them on you, then wait 2 weeks, etc. This aids kids who might not know which flash cards to review when, or might not want to bring a whole pack with them on the go. So maybe premed programs are having to adjust to the fact that grinder students are getting better at memorization.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @R.G. Camara


    The popular flash card programs currently available for computers/cellphones are, actually, kind of a new hack of memory, since they not only allow you to make flashcards you can take on the go, but they also space the repetition of them out at set intervals that correspond to most memory studies.
     
    Do you have a reference or two for these programs?

    Replies: @tr, @R.G. Camara

  221. @Hibernian
    @Technite78

    A lot of urban Unis, mostly Catholic, have small campuses with mini-quads. Not sure if University of Illinois / Chicago has one. De Paul, Loyola, and the U of C do; U of C also has a lot of old buildings on the north side of a very wide City owned boulevard. (This includes the buildings on the south side of the quad.) Increasingly there have been new buildings on the south side of the boulevard (Midway Plaisance) since the Law School established itself there in the '50s or '60s.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    Fordham, a Catholic university in Da Bronx, has a shockingly beautiful quad-campus in the middle of a craphole Bronx neighborhood.

  222. Anon[886] • Disclaimer says:
    @That Would Be Telling
    @Houston 1992


    btw there is some very specific feedback on what Jones might have been doing wrong.
    https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1052652
     
    They're not useful. I've read the whole set of student reviews of a MIT professor who completely blew teaching a course outside of his specialty that he nonetheless understands and cares about along with caring very much about teaching well, then listened in an adjacent office as the department sat him down and made him read every one and then tell him he'd never be allowed to teach the course again (MIT really cares about undergraduate education and being an adequate instructor is required to get tenure).

    These reviews are all over the place, although there may be some false ones, I read too many that fit a template of "I was playing [varying] video game during the real time lectures, but the book etc. was fine to learn the material." They're what you'd expect from an inherently tough subject for which a large fraction simply don't have what it takes, as we've been told from NYU being a premier premed school that nonetheless weeds out a lot of those on that track.

    And if every lecture makes you cry, you're definitely not got what's required to be a life and death doctor, what will you did when you lose patients? What when that's because you made an acceptable but tragic mistake?

    Since the textbook is his writing, its the same as listening to his lectures.
     
    That's clearly not the case unless he'd suffered enough age induced cognitive decline for that and some of the other claimed bad behavior drove some of this 2022 debacle that ended with his being fired.

    Turns out I learned first term under a professor who was the coauthor of the book, the other author was instead of research one a premed oriented one at a selective but much less college. I assure you a good lecturer can do a lot better than repeat what's in his book. My favorite anecdote he related was about a chemical plant using the pot method that suddenly had their yields of a product go to hell. They couldn't figure out what was going on and finally resorted to 24x7 video camera surveillance. Which revealed a janitorial type was relieving himself into the "pot."

    Obviously this wouldn't be interesting except for the fact that guy was getting old and working fewer nights and the bad yields happened when he didn't do this. Something in his urine complexed with a contaminant and allowed it to be removed, the company's problem was that they didn't fully understand the real process they were using to make it.

    And he otherwise augmented and helped us understand the material that again was pretty much all in his book, which circumstances forced me to learn alone from for the end of the semester. Note though I'm not a representative example for the body of students who take organic and especially the premeds, was science track and am both a wordcel and shape-rotator.

    Replies: @Rob, @Anon, @James B. Shearer

    They’re what you’d expect from an inherently tough subject for which a large fraction simply don’t have what it takes, as we’ve been told from NYU being a premier premed school that nonetheless weeds out a lot of those on that track.

    Since when is NYU a premier premed school?

  223. @Redman
    @prosa123

    That’s exactly what I told my liberal friends who all sent me this NYT article thinking I’d be incensed at the liberal lack of standards. What’s up with the ancient folks having such positions of power in America? Do we not know the meaning of retirement anymore? That was my first thought.

    Maybe after the Biden dementia debacle experiment we can get back to reality.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    Sure, he was 84, an Organic Chemistry Tony La Russa. Still the firing was triggered by the PC complaints of snowflakes.

  224. @The Wobbly Guy
    @War for Blair Mountain

    I teach chemistry in Singapore at the pre-university level... but the content I teach is equivalent to university 1st and 2nd year content.
    https://www.seab.gov.sg/docs/default-source/national-examinations/syllabus/alevel/2022syllabus/9729_y22_sy.pdf

    There's much more to organic chemistry than mere memorization.

    There's synthesis - e.g. how do you get from compound A to compound B?

    Explanation - e.g. why is compound C more acidic than compound D?

    Mechanisms - e.g. why does compound E react this way when compound F reacts THAT way?

    And finally, the type of question my students hate the most, structural elucidation - here's unknown compound G. Here are some observations of its reactions and features. Figure out its structure.

    I can say I'm a damn good chemistry teacher - my students have consistently gotten value-added results, which is to say I've gotten them to score better than the system predicted them to be.

    As for its applicability to medicine... well, some of the stuff is relevant, but I also think it's really just a filter/weeding out process. Where organic chemistry is really relevant is probably more the pharmacy side.

    As for teaching it online, well, I guess as a child of the IT revolution I had no problems adapting to remote learning. Heck, I pioneered it in my school and pushed for more blended style learning, which paid huge dividends with covid. Got some nifty performance bonuses out of it too.

    To teach using zoom, all I need is a random name generator (used excel for it), a tablet laptop where I can draw on the screen, MS One Note, and maybe chemsketch. Heck, I did zoom teaching for almost all of 2020 and it went fine. Keep calling students, get them to answer, tell them to flash their written answers and hold it up on screen, or whatsapp me so I can put it up.

    But it works only for a smaller class, maybe 30, tops. Larger groups, harder to keep them on task, but that's where the pedagogy comes in and you've got to spice it up periodically with videos and other activities.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @War for Blair Mountain

    Wobbly

    I completely agree with you. To the extent that an Organic Chemistry Course tests for conceptual and algorithmic thinking it serves the purpose of screening out students who are deficient in this. Why would anyone want people without these skills working as a Doctor?

    I raised the issue of classifying finite groups because Organic Chemistry reminds of this…

    If you are gonna be a Physician you should know about the logic and structure of carbon…

    • Agree: The Wobbly Guy
  225. @BosTex
    @Paleo Liberal

    Both my wife and I went to Northeastern. She in the 2000s.

    Northeastern changed radically. The number of subcontinentals was incredible.

    This was a school that used to serve (mostly) local kids with a focus on vocational degrees like engineering and engineering technology,
    Business in all its aspects, physical therapy, law enforcement, etc.

    It had radically altered in the 2000s.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @That Would Be Telling

    WTF? I know Northeastern to an extent by having lived in the Boston area nearby for a dozen years, attended a couple of Ring Cycles there, and from all the great computer science stuff done at it, students taught that, etc. It was no MIT EECS, but earned a good reputation in some subfields.

    As you imply It’s a complete betrayal of its traditional mission to pack it with subcontinentals who no doubt are paying for their full load and providing a traitorous administration with lots of unrestricted money (most donors don’t trust their schools and earmark their donations, and even that’s corrupted, see the Princeton Wilson Institute debacle).

    To no doubt for example spiff up the college, it’s modest or was as you note, solid but architecture that would not be out of place in a K-12 school system that watched what it spent and got good money for it. In the middle of the last century; I went to such a place in the late 1960s through the 1970s.

    Damn.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @That Would Be Telling


    As you imply It’s a complete betrayal of its traditional mission to pack it with subcontinentals who no doubt are paying for their full load and providing a traitorous administration with lots of unrestricted money
     
    Should American colleges be allowed to admit foreigners? These foreigners come here and compete against Americans for seats, grades, spouses, and post-degree American jobs.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    , @BosTex
    @That Would Be Telling

    It used to be such a good deal for the smart Irish, Italian and Jewish kids of the Boston area who came from very, very modest means. (Like me! I am actually mostly Swedish, English and Spanish. Whatever! I look Irish).

    (If you are rich Irish: you go to BC. If you are rich Jewish you go to BU. If you are rich Italian…business major at Bentley!)

    I was there in the 1980s, early 90s. I think the net cost for my degree was $25k or less (I also worked full time for an employer that had a crazy good tuition reimbursement policy.)

    As you note: not a fancy campus. Do not walk over to Columbus Ave at night! Nasty black projects there.

    Used to be Plain Jane, but really decent quality, across the board, especially their vocational oriented programs (stress on work/study, so nice offset to expense): engineering, computer science, business, physical therapy, law enforcement. All really strong.

    I think the main down side is that there was no national presence to the school. Decently known in New England and mid Atlantic, that was it.

    Whatever. You can’t have everything. I am sure it is more nationally known now, but just loaded with subcons. I’ll take the old school, any day.

    Just a crazy and radical change from the traditional student body that was there, I think for the better part of a century.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    , @BosTex
    @That Would Be Telling

    Just looked back at a picture of my wife’s graduation: seemed like quite a lot of subcons, but not overwhelming.

    I think I had mixed the graduation with a job fair that she had asked me to go to with her at northeastern. There was definitely a press of subcons at that one. Holy mackerel.

    Looking at the picture of graduation: it does seem like a very foreign group and a lot more women than I remember. Maybe a significant majority? That’s a huge change.

    , @Brutusale
    @That Would Be Telling

    Northeastern had to up its profile to compete with their neighboring "betters", as BC did in the 70s. They now cater to monied foreign students as well as local strivers. I think they've built on the sustainability of their coop program and improved their standing, as opposed to their neighbors, some of whom seem to be intentionally destroying their brands.

  226. @That Would Be Telling
    @War for Blair Mountain


    but how hard can Organic Chemistry be outside of memorization?
     
    Answering you, @Alec Leamas (working from home), yourself maybe, @theMann, @fish, and agreeing with @Rob, @Hibernian a lot harder because there's a lot more to it:

    You must be both a wordcel and a shape-rotator and use both skills together. You must memorize (and here that old sacked professor as described by the media (warning) sounds completely out to lunch) a bunch of names of molecules and groups of atoms which do have a system so it's not like random digits, and their 3D shapes, and you must literally rotate shapes and otherwise visualize them in 3D.

    Besides the possible but very dubious to me pharmacological tie in, and of course organic is a prerequisite of biochemistry, mastering these in the limited context of a single semester course (I saw someone say a second term is required?? but I don't know that, was on a science not premed track), should be an excellent weed-out for people who won't be able to memorize the similar style of data about the body including of course anatomy, for the latter the corresponding 3D shapes, then you don't have to as intensely shape-rotate it all but you still need to visualize everything all together in 3D.

    This is particularly true for surgeons including those athletic orthapeds who have to manipulate bones still attached to protesting muscles, it's also needed for diagnostics, and obviously radiology (creation and interpretation of images) and radiotherapy. And I'm sure other things.

    It's a lot of work, and if you can't do it you're not likely to become an adequate doctor. Even if you were to become for example a psychiatrist you need the more general medical education to know when something else is going on. You're also expected to have a clue in emergencies.

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    That would be Telling

    Yes there is mathematical structure hidden in Organic Chemistry…and it’s not even hidden…I mean the Orthogonal Group gotta be in there somewhere…isometries and metric spaces also…

    • Replies: @War for Blair Mountain
    @War for Blair Mountain

    If the foundations of Organic Chemistry is spectroscopy and crystallography-experimentally speaking-I suppose you can say Organic Chemistry has group theory DNA…..Perhaps this is an odd way of putting it...but reduce Organic Chemistry to quantum mechanics-maybe not so odd…

    , @Shale boi
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Group theory is big in spectroscopy (bending moments affecting IR, etc.) You see it stressed a little more in inorganic than organic grad school, but still. And the inorganic is molecular, coordination compounds. Solid state inorganicers are more about space groups for crystallography, not point groups for IR, NMR.

    Here is a decent (and accessible) text:

    https://www.amazon.com/Chemical-Applications-Group-Theory-3rd/dp/0471510947

    P.s. the funny thing is I first saw this comment outside the Steve-o-sphere....but thought this was such a Steve thing he would cover it. Guess my Bayesian instincts are sound...

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain

  227. @Rob
    @That Would Be Telling

    To be clear, I'm loling at the chemical plant anecdote. Gonna save that one.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Yeah, it’s a keeper along with:

    “[Favorable equilibrium combined with high energy barrier] is generally the case with high explosives. Explosives without this barrier are not likely to store well. A company which makes these is likely to go out of business unexpectedly.”

    And damn it, COVID killed him in May 2020, granted at age 83 and “after a battle with dementia.”

  228. @Zoos
    @James B. Shearer


    So what do you think the correct number is?
     
    I gave you my best guess that’s probably in the ballpark.

    Point being, the claim that almost no blacks can handle med school can’t be true, and uselessly obfuscates what the real problem is: that blacks who occupy the left side of the bell curve, and are statistically overrepresented there, are likely headed to prison, or somehow wards of the state, since once they get below an IQ of 85, there’s few employment opportunities they will be qualified for, and there’s enough of them on the left side of the curve to create perpetual, dreadful problems in a modern society. That fundamental problem is not going away unless science finds a way. That's not gonna be anytime soon.

    The real question is the the question that everyone who finally becomes a believer in the science of measuring IQ poses:

    "Well… what do we do now?"

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Jack D

    Point being, the claim that almost no blacks can handle med school can’t be true,

    Eppur si muove.

    Absent affirmative action, med school enrollment would be somewhere around 1 or 2% black. The left shift has even more profound consequences on the right tail.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Jack D


    Absent affirmative action, med school enrollment would be somewhere around 1 or 2% black.
     
    How many of those are recent immigrants from Africa versus descendants of American slaves? Those slots should go to DOAS.

    Replies: @Jack D

  229. @Meretricious
    @prime noticer

    "Obama being re-elected signaled that the old WASP America was officially over"

    I like that quote but I'd substitute "meritocratic" for "old WASP." The key to understanding Barack Obama's rise is to realize just how far affirmative action can lift up black mediocrities like Obama, which is why I dubbed him 'Affirmative Action Barry'

    Replies: @Celt Darnell

    Yup. Affirmative Action was bad enough when only 10% of the population could benefit from it (and even then, it wasn’t applied to positions of consequence).

    When around 40% of the population becomes eligible for affirmative action, it’s game over.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Celt Darnell

    Not completely true.

    The largest group of AA recipients has been white females.

  230. Anon[227] • Disclaimer says:
    @That Would Be Telling
    @BosTex

    WTF? I know Northeastern to an extent by having lived in the Boston area nearby for a dozen years, attended a couple of Ring Cycles there, and from all the great computer science stuff done at it, students taught that, etc. It was no MIT EECS, but earned a good reputation in some subfields.

    As you imply It's a complete betrayal of its traditional mission to pack it with subcontinentals who no doubt are paying for their full load and providing a traitorous administration with lots of unrestricted money (most donors don't trust their schools and earmark their donations, and even that's corrupted, see the Princeton Wilson Institute debacle).

    To no doubt for example spiff up the college, it's modest or was as you note, solid but architecture that would not be out of place in a K-12 school system that watched what it spent and got good money for it. In the middle of the last century; I went to such a place in the late 1960s through the 1970s.

    Damn.

    Replies: @Anon, @BosTex, @BosTex, @Brutusale

    As you imply It’s a complete betrayal of its traditional mission to pack it with subcontinentals who no doubt are paying for their full load and providing a traitorous administration with lots of unrestricted money

    Should American colleges be allowed to admit foreigners? These foreigners come here and compete against Americans for seats, grades, spouses, and post-degree American jobs.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Anon


    Should American colleges be allowed to admit foreigners? These foreigners come here and compete against Americans for seats, grades, spouses, and post-degree American jobs.
     
    That battle was lost in the mid-1980s, and Lord knows what it'll take to recover from it.

    Reagan picked one (((Erich Bloch))), an IBM EE manager without a Ph.D. or any science experience besides what he picked up in I'll admit an exciting period where he was the engineering manager for the 7030 STRETCH ... which was an ambitious Second System Syndrome failure that still taught IBM a lot and from memory I think he may have been the noteworthy leader who was rehabilitated inside IBM by the time of the wildly successful System/360.

    So the NSF started a huge campaign about how we didn't have enough scientists. Which was a blatant lie unless you weight by quality of course which is impossible at a large nation level when they're most productive. This was to simply stuff the pipeline with cheap graduate students and maybe postdocs most of whom would never get a good, real job in the field, let alone become a tenured professor. And of course the H-1B visa program came out of that. All in the cause of cheap bench level scientific labor.

    You've got to have a calling and wealth and/or a willingness to live cheaply to be a white male and go into science. And now of course be woke or fake it perfectly. Also sucks for women in academia who are the real thing since so few will get tenure, the raw math is brutal. Which itself is become passe, especially outside of R1 research universities where well fed administrators have taken to hiring lots of associate professors for cheap a term or two at a time, like the one that got sacked that's the topic of this iSteve posting.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

  231. @Jack D
    @Zoos


    Point being, the claim that almost no blacks can handle med school can’t be true,
     
    Eppur si muove.

    Absent affirmative action, med school enrollment would be somewhere around 1 or 2% black. The left shift has even more profound consequences on the right tail.

    Replies: @Anon

    Absent affirmative action, med school enrollment would be somewhere around 1 or 2% black.

    How many of those are recent immigrants from Africa versus descendants of American slaves? Those slots should go to DOAS.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Anon

    The slots should go to the best qualified people.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Anon

  232. I was a chem major. O chem is pretty hard for some reason. Am pretty balanced in math/verbal ability, but O chem is just a lot of content and a high pace (drinking from the firehose). And if you get behind, it’s hard to catch up. In terms of specific problems, it’s not as hard as p-chem or EE or physics. But overall, it’s harder because of the amount of content.

    And it’s not “just memorization”. That’s trivializing learning many different concepts and how to apply them together, in synthesis.

  233. @Anon
    @Jack D

    https://www.twitter.com/SpeakingBee/status/1577188768628453377

    Replies: @Celt Darnell

    “The teacher was fired for sabotaging students’ careers with low grades…Students aren’t there to get low grades.”

    That really is the bleak statement of this whole story.

    Because students have no control over their grades whatsoever, right? Grades are just randomly assigned to the helpless students.

    • Agree: BosTex
  234. Reading isteve commenters makes me feel dumb.

  235. @War for Blair Mountain
    @That Would Be Telling

    That would be Telling

    Yes there is mathematical structure hidden in Organic Chemistry…and it’s not even hidden…I mean the Orthogonal Group gotta be in there somewhere…isometries and metric spaces also…

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @Shale boi

    If the foundations of Organic Chemistry is spectroscopy and crystallography-experimentally speaking-I suppose you can say Organic Chemistry has group theory DNA…..Perhaps this is an odd way of putting it…but reduce Organic Chemistry to quantum mechanics-maybe not so odd…

  236. @That Would Be Telling
    @BosTex

    WTF? I know Northeastern to an extent by having lived in the Boston area nearby for a dozen years, attended a couple of Ring Cycles there, and from all the great computer science stuff done at it, students taught that, etc. It was no MIT EECS, but earned a good reputation in some subfields.

    As you imply It's a complete betrayal of its traditional mission to pack it with subcontinentals who no doubt are paying for their full load and providing a traitorous administration with lots of unrestricted money (most donors don't trust their schools and earmark their donations, and even that's corrupted, see the Princeton Wilson Institute debacle).

    To no doubt for example spiff up the college, it's modest or was as you note, solid but architecture that would not be out of place in a K-12 school system that watched what it spent and got good money for it. In the middle of the last century; I went to such a place in the late 1960s through the 1970s.

    Damn.

    Replies: @Anon, @BosTex, @BosTex, @Brutusale

    It used to be such a good deal for the smart Irish, Italian and Jewish kids of the Boston area who came from very, very modest means. (Like me! I am actually mostly Swedish, English and Spanish. Whatever! I look Irish).

    (If you are rich Irish: you go to BC. If you are rich Jewish you go to BU. If you are rich Italian…business major at Bentley!)

    I was there in the 1980s, early 90s. I think the net cost for my degree was $25k or less (I also worked full time for an employer that had a crazy good tuition reimbursement policy.)

    As you note: not a fancy campus. Do not walk over to Columbus Ave at night! Nasty black projects there.

    Used to be Plain Jane, but really decent quality, across the board, especially their vocational oriented programs (stress on work/study, so nice offset to expense): engineering, computer science, business, physical therapy, law enforcement. All really strong.

    I think the main down side is that there was no national presence to the school. Decently known in New England and mid Atlantic, that was it.

    Whatever. You can’t have everything. I am sure it is more nationally known now, but just loaded with subcons. I’ll take the old school, any day.

    Just a crazy and radical change from the traditional student body that was there, I think for the better part of a century.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @BosTex

    Northeastern has done several things to get themselves a higher US News ranking. Note that NYU does most or all of these as well



    1. Lots of foreign students. Usually second only to NYU which has more students. Occasionally they have more foreign students than NYU. On a percentage basis, they have more than any other big university.

    2. Multiple campuses. Many abroad. These students don’t count in the rankings. For example, NU recently purchased a women’s college in California. These are essentially a fourth tier of students. These campuses are also used for Boston campus students who want a semester or year abroad.

    3. The “NU in” program. Rich students who can’t get acceptance in their main admissions. They spend their first semester abroad in a different NU campus, then to Boston for the Spring semester. Their places are taken abroad by students who want a spring semester abroad. These students aren’t part of the main admission so they don’t bring down the rankings. Sort of a third tier, and far less financial aid. That is why mostly rich kids.

    4. Honors students. These are a special first tier who get special privileges. This is to entice the really top students to attend NU. Note that many other colleges do this as well.

    5. Very good financial aid compared to their peer schools. Of course an Ivy or similar top tier school will have even better aid, but this is to entice students away from BU or NYU, for example. This is especially for their first (honors) and second (regular) tier students. But the first and second tiers are what counts in the US News rankings.

    6. An excellent co-op program. One of the very best in the country, if not THE best. Work experience can be vital to landing the first job.

    7. A few extremely strong programs like Public Health, which entices pre-meds. The idea being that someone who washes out of the pre-med program at least has a degree from one of the very top public health programs, while someone who washes out of the pre-med program at NYU is stuck with a second rate biochemistry degree. Also, pre-med washouts can go into the NU pharmacy program. I did know a pharmacy student at LIU in Brooklyn who had washed out of the NYU pre-med program. Had she been at NU she wouldn’t have needed to transfer.

    Replies: @BosTex

  237. @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @Steve Sailer

    What if everybody were naked? How could ya tell then?

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    I lived in Hawaii for a short time. It got to where I could tell the difference between a Japanese tourist and a local Japanese in a few seconds or less. Not just the way they dressed, but their entire demeanor. Not to mention the locals were darker, having spent more time in the tropical sun.

    I knew some Japanese foreign students. They were more Americanized (or Honoluluized) than the tourists but still acted somewhat Japanese.

    They tended to dress more American but not as downscale as the locals.

    So there are still often ways to tell the difference between a Japanese National and a Japanese American. The Japanese Americans just act more American.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @Paleo Liberal

    Interesting and very plausible, but that wasn't quite what my perverted prankster mind was getting at when messing with Steve. I had some experience on East Coast many years ago with Japanese and Anglo-Japanese offspring populations in a military town. It was a mixed bag of odd personality types.

  238. @PhysicistDave
    @BosTex

    BosTex wrote:


    Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.
     
    The person in my extended family who is a physician loved OChem, especially the lab where you had to figure out the structure of an unknown.

    Thankfully, as a physics major, I did not need to take it: I view OChem as sorta a House of Horrors.

    My best friend from high school did his BS in physics at what is now the Missouri University of Sceince and Technology in Rolla. There, physics majors had to take OChem.

    Which really violates the Constitutional prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment!

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @That Would Be Telling

    Thankfully, as a physics major, I did not need to take it: I view OChem as sorta a House of Horrors.

    You are not entirely wrong. Derek “Things I Won’t Work With” Lowe devotes some of his blog postings to various details of that; here’s my favorite of things he’ll work with:

    Let me speak metaphorically, for those outside the field or who have never had the experience. Total synthesis of a complex natural product is like. . .it’s like assembling a huge balloon sculpture, all twists and turns, knots and bulges, only half of the balloons are rubber and half of them are made of blown glass. And you can’t just reach in and grab the thing, either, and they don’t give you any pliers or glue. What you get is a huge pile of miscellaneous stuff – bamboo poles, cricket bats, spiral-wound copper tubing, balsa-wood dowels, and several barrels of even more mixed-up junk: croquet balls, doughnuts, wadded-up aluminum foil, wobbly Frisbees, and so on.

    The balloon sculpture is your molecule. The piles of junk are the available chemical methods you use to assemble it. Gradually, you work out that if you brace this part over here in a cradle of used fence posts, held together with turkey twine, you can poke this part over here into it in a way that makes it stick if you just use that right-angled metal doohicky to hold it from the right while you hit the top end of it with a thrown tennis ball at the right angle. Step by step, this is how you proceed. Some of the steps are pretty obvious, and work more or less the way you pictured them, using things that are on top of one of the junk piles. Others require you to rummage through the whole damn collection, whittling parts down and tying stuff together to assemble some tool that you don’t have, maybe something that no one has ever made at all.

    But for someone with physical intuition but much weaker at math than you, the right sort of memory and being both a wordcel and shape-rotator it’s what revealed chemistry was my calling.

    Note for the above, in first term organic chemistry you’re at least expected to understand all sorts of details about the molecules in questions, how their different parts behave which feeds into the above sorts of synthesis, and the most fun is in the “natural” bit, that implies is has one or more chiral centers, generally a carbon atom bonded tetrahedrally to four other atoms which has a “handiness,” is by convention “right” or “left” handed, dextro/d-/’+” or levo/l-/”.” Note for example we can only? usefully? take up left handed amino acids to then synthesize proteins.

    So when you do reactions on chiral reagents, you have to be very careful to maintain that handiness and not produce a racemic mixture that’s 50/50 of each…. And I’ll have more to say about this topic in my next post because of an amazing result in this year’s chemistry Nobel which was just announced.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @That Would Be Telling

    That Would Be Telling wrote to me:


    Note for the above, in first term organic chemistry you’re at least expected to understand all sorts of details about the molecules in questions, how their different parts behave which feeds into the above sorts of synthesis, and the most fun is in the “natural” bit, that implies is has one or more chiral centers, generally a carbon atom bonded tetrahedrally to four other atoms which has a “handiness,” is by convention “right” or “left” handed, dextro/d-/’+” or levo/l-/”.” Note for example we can only? usefully? take up left handed amino acids to then synthesize proteins.
     
    Of course, as a physicist, I understand all that: back in my student days, I even knew how to use character tables from group theory to figure out which transitions were allowed/prohibited. And MO theory comes pretty naturally to me: QM is my bread and butter.

    And yet... it is still all magic. You guys have this way of thinking that transcends normal human minds.

    I've been looking into the history of chemistry recently: they figured out all this stuff without being able to see the molecules or atoms. We physicists, even when dealing with subatomic particles, can sort of "see" them: tracks in cloud chambers or bubble chambers or, nowadays, more sophisticated detectors that provide great computer graphics displays.

    We physicists pretend to look down upon chemists, but, in truth, we know you guys can do stuff we could never do.
  239. @Celt Darnell
    @Meretricious

    Yup. Affirmative Action was bad enough when only 10% of the population could benefit from it (and even then, it wasn’t applied to positions of consequence).

    When around 40% of the population becomes eligible for affirmative action, it’s game over.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    Not completely true.

    The largest group of AA recipients has been white females.

    • Thanks: Celt Darnell
  240. @That Would Be Telling
    @BosTex

    WTF? I know Northeastern to an extent by having lived in the Boston area nearby for a dozen years, attended a couple of Ring Cycles there, and from all the great computer science stuff done at it, students taught that, etc. It was no MIT EECS, but earned a good reputation in some subfields.

    As you imply It's a complete betrayal of its traditional mission to pack it with subcontinentals who no doubt are paying for their full load and providing a traitorous administration with lots of unrestricted money (most donors don't trust their schools and earmark their donations, and even that's corrupted, see the Princeton Wilson Institute debacle).

    To no doubt for example spiff up the college, it's modest or was as you note, solid but architecture that would not be out of place in a K-12 school system that watched what it spent and got good money for it. In the middle of the last century; I went to such a place in the late 1960s through the 1970s.

    Damn.

    Replies: @Anon, @BosTex, @BosTex, @Brutusale

    Just looked back at a picture of my wife’s graduation: seemed like quite a lot of subcons, but not overwhelming.

    I think I had mixed the graduation with a job fair that she had asked me to go to with her at northeastern. There was definitely a press of subcons at that one. Holy mackerel.

    Looking at the picture of graduation: it does seem like a very foreign group and a lot more women than I remember. Maybe a significant majority? That’s a huge change.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  241. @Houston 1992
    @JimB

    I think med school admission committees look very closely to see where, what school etc one earned one's Organic Chem grades. A summer school class in a junior college wont impress the committees.

    Many schools also publish a grade pareto analysis i.e. how many earned A;'s, B;s etc in that class

    Replies: @JimB

    I think med school admission committees look very closely to see where, what school etc one earned one’s Organic Chem grades.

    I concur, but if you are a Harvard undergraduate weak in science, you are better off with an A- in OC from Bowling Green Junior college than a C+ from Harvard. With your unprestigious A- you might still get into Thomas Jefferson or Duke. But with a C+, I doubt you could even get into Rutgers. You’d end up having to attend some Med school in the Caribbean.

  242. @Anon
    @That Would Be Telling


    As you imply It’s a complete betrayal of its traditional mission to pack it with subcontinentals who no doubt are paying for their full load and providing a traitorous administration with lots of unrestricted money
     
    Should American colleges be allowed to admit foreigners? These foreigners come here and compete against Americans for seats, grades, spouses, and post-degree American jobs.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Should American colleges be allowed to admit foreigners? These foreigners come here and compete against Americans for seats, grades, spouses, and post-degree American jobs.

    That battle was lost in the mid-1980s, and Lord knows what it’ll take to recover from it.

    Reagan picked one (((Erich Bloch))), an IBM EE manager without a Ph.D. or any science experience besides what he picked up in I’ll admit an exciting period where he was the engineering manager for the 7030 STRETCH … which was an ambitious Second System Syndrome failure that still taught IBM a lot and from memory I think he may have been the noteworthy leader who was rehabilitated inside IBM by the time of the wildly successful System/360.

    So the NSF started a huge campaign about how we didn’t have enough scientists. Which was a blatant lie unless you weight by quality of course which is impossible at a large nation level when they’re most productive. This was to simply stuff the pipeline with cheap graduate students and maybe postdocs most of whom would never get a good, real job in the field, let alone become a tenured professor. And of course the H-1B visa program came out of that. All in the cause of cheap bench level scientific labor.

    You’ve got to have a calling and wealth and/or a willingness to live cheaply to be a white male and go into science. And now of course be woke or fake it perfectly. Also sucks for women in academia who are the real thing since so few will get tenure, the raw math is brutal. Which itself is become passe, especially outside of R1 research universities where well fed administrators have taken to hiring lots of associate professors for cheap a term or two at a time, like the one that got sacked that’s the topic of this iSteve posting.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @That Would Be Telling

    This is part of what destroyed my life.

    I got a PhD and the most I could do was get aw assistant professor position in a place I hated. That was after years of adjunct and temporary assignments.

    So I learned to code, and within a few months I was making more than double.

    Then the dot com bust happened. And they flooded the market of programmers with H1-B visas.

    Now, a senior programmer with over 20 years experience and my salary adjusted for inflation is about what I was making in 2000.

    The whole point is to get cheap labor for everything. The middle class is dying so fast in this country.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  243. @Anonymous
    @Zoos


    since once they get below an IQ of 85, there’s few employment opportunities they will be qualified for, and there’s enough of them on the left side of the curve to create perpetual, dreadful problems in a modern society.
     
    What are examples of some jobs you can do at an IQ of 85 or below? Amazon and the Internet have created a lot of jobs for packing, loading, driving, and delivery type services.

    Replies: @International Jew

    You could do some aspects of my job with an 85 IQ.

  244. @Anon
    @Jack D


    Absent affirmative action, med school enrollment would be somewhere around 1 or 2% black.
     
    How many of those are recent immigrants from Africa versus descendants of American slaves? Those slots should go to DOAS.

    Replies: @Jack D

    The slots should go to the best qualified people.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Jack D


    The slots should go to the best qualified people.
     
    In general practice or similar I think I'd want neither a triple dipped Affirmative Action case nor a bright foreigner who can't speak proper English sufficient to communicate with me about my medical conditions and prognoses.
    , @Anon
    @Jack D


    The slots should go to the best qualified people.
     
    They should go to the best qualified Americans, not to Africans or other foreigners.
  245. @Anonymous
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)


    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive.
     
    Doesn’t NYU already own most of the land it is on? If so, it is sheltered from high real estate prices.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive.

    Doesn’t NYU already own most of the land it is on? If so, it is sheltered from high real estate prices.

    If you’ve been around Universities in the last 20 years or so you’d understand that they’re like sharks – they seem to feel the need to expand by consuming new land or that they’ll die. They’re adding country club like amenities to attract more would-be student applicants, and it’s important that they have brand new labs and lecture halls and dormitories and student centers and gyms and so forth.

    So my point is that NYU can’t as easily expand and add space as colleges surrounded by more abundant or cheaper land.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Rice U. owns a 300 acre campus. When I was there, half of it was empty parking lot for the 70,000 seat football stadium that only filled up when U of Texas or Texas A&M came to play. Now, much of it has been converted to academic buildings, allowing Rice to boost enrollment.

    Replies: @Anon

  246. @Charlotte
    @Polistra

    It’s the standard advice for dealing with an active shooter situation: run away if you can, hide if you can’t run, and fight if you can’t hide.

    Replies: @Polistra

    Yes, thanks, only I was wondering how they intend for people to fight against someone armed with a gun and (presumably) not within arm’s reach.

  247. @PhysicistDave
    @BosTex

    BosTex wrote:


    Organic Chem is a hard course. You are young, you have been given the gift of a different direction in life. Keep moving: no one has a right to be a physician.
     
    The person in my extended family who is a physician loved OChem, especially the lab where you had to figure out the structure of an unknown.

    Thankfully, as a physics major, I did not need to take it: I view OChem as sorta a House of Horrors.

    My best friend from high school did his BS in physics at what is now the Missouri University of Sceince and Technology in Rolla. There, physics majors had to take OChem.

    Which really violates the Constitutional prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment!

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @That Would Be Telling

    OK, this is amazing and I think rare to be almost unheard of, a researcher getting a second Nobel in the same general field he got his first. One of the three awardees this year is Karl Barry Sharpless, who at the beginning of his first lecture in second term organic chemistry confidently told he us he’d get a Nobel as he did a decade later and just by himself (it was shared with another for something different).

    OK, he wasn’t arrogant to my observation, but by then in our stage of learning organic from an institution with a very strong chemical engineering department, all he had to do was to tell us how he’d figured out how to create (almost entirely) cheap chiral reagents from achiral ones, a holy grail vs. starting with natural product. If he lived long enough it was blatantly obvious he’d get the award, and was also the sort of thing that allowed him to walk away from what I’m pretty sure was a tenured position at MIT.

    Actually seems to have serious wanderlust, after his postdocs MIT -> Standford -> back to MIT -> Scripts Research Institute -> Kyushu University. Scripts is where he started his click chemistry work—I wonder if this has anything to do with intellectual property policies, MIT’s is that unless you do it on your one day a week do your own thing we allow you, we own it but may give you some of the proceeds. MIT was also either still horrible about licensing IP, as in just plain incompetent, slow and pettifogging focusing “on the mechanics,” or that was a recent memory and perhaps reasonable expectation after the office was in theory reformed.

    So apparently starting about the same time another #%(*# white male Dane independently developed a click reaction which per Wikipedia Sharpless “referred to this cycloaddition as ‘the cream of the crop’ of click chemistry and ‘the premier example of a click reaction.’” He developed a new field of again intensely practical chemistry, named it, etc. This time he shares his part with the Dane, while a woman got an award for something mostly different which I’m not qualified to discern the quality of. Although “she discovered that viruses can bind to sugars in the body” is certainly in that direction.

    I’m sure it’s a complete coincidence she’s a lesbian (actually very possibly is, real scientists care about the science, not so much the package). Her award though sounds like it’s in the pattern that I think it was Derek Lowe who observed the Nobel Chemistry Prize, his field of course, had become a second Medicine (Biology) award.

    Then again, glycobiology is very important, for example the naturally although I’m not sure vaccine manufactured COVID SPIKE PROTEIN!!! incorporates some sugars. In something I’ve never heard of but obviously happens she and her fellow Ph.D. candidates had to finish their work at U.C. Berkeley without a supervisor when he got colon cancer and then enrolled in med school. She founded her own field of bioorthogonal chemistry, “any chemical reaction that can occur inside of living systems without interfering with native biochemical processes” per Wikipedia and also per that and common sense includes click reactions.

    • Thanks: PhysicistDave
  248. @That Would Be Telling
    @War for Blair Mountain


    but how hard can Organic Chemistry be outside of memorization?
     
    Answering you, @Alec Leamas (working from home), yourself maybe, @theMann, @fish, and agreeing with @Rob, @Hibernian a lot harder because there's a lot more to it:

    You must be both a wordcel and a shape-rotator and use both skills together. You must memorize (and here that old sacked professor as described by the media (warning) sounds completely out to lunch) a bunch of names of molecules and groups of atoms which do have a system so it's not like random digits, and their 3D shapes, and you must literally rotate shapes and otherwise visualize them in 3D.

    Besides the possible but very dubious to me pharmacological tie in, and of course organic is a prerequisite of biochemistry, mastering these in the limited context of a single semester course (I saw someone say a second term is required?? but I don't know that, was on a science not premed track), should be an excellent weed-out for people who won't be able to memorize the similar style of data about the body including of course anatomy, for the latter the corresponding 3D shapes, then you don't have to as intensely shape-rotate it all but you still need to visualize everything all together in 3D.

    This is particularly true for surgeons including those athletic orthapeds who have to manipulate bones still attached to protesting muscles, it's also needed for diagnostics, and obviously radiology (creation and interpretation of images) and radiotherapy. And I'm sure other things.

    It's a lot of work, and if you can't do it you're not likely to become an adequate doctor. Even if you were to become for example a psychiatrist you need the more general medical education to know when something else is going on. You're also expected to have a clue in emergencies.

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    It’s a lot of work, and if you can’t do it you’re not likely to become an adequate doctor. Even if you were to become for example a psychiatrist you need the more general medical education to know when something else is going on. You’re also expected to have a clue in emergencies.

    Perhaps but my unscientific survey of doctors runs at near uniform “no, I don’t use organic chemistry in the practice of medicine, nor did I rely upon it in medical school.”

    It wouldn’t be so much of an issue if the current cursus for selecting medical doctors yielded a sufficient number of medical doctors to meet demand. Insofar as it is generally acknowledged that the U.S. suffers from a “doctor shortage” to the point that proposals to permit nurses and physician assistants and the rest to begin practicing medicine within a certain scope, it is perhaps time to reevaluate how someone becomes a medical doctor, and determine whether all of the requisites are selecting for the best doctor candidates or merely cutting away people who can’t master organic chemistry or some other subject which is nevertheless not predictive of being a good doctor.

    My sense is that there is a substantial difference in specialized knowledge between being a general practitioner or dermatologist or Obstetrician versus a neurosurgeon, and I think as long as we don’t have enough doctors generally we should try to modernize the selection system to recognize such differences.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)


    Perhaps but my unscientific survey of doctors runs at near uniform “no, I don’t use organic chemistry in the practice of medicine, nor did I rely upon it in medical school.”
     
    Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant to say the skills you demonstrate in doing well in organic chemistry map straight into the skills required to learn general medicine, and even specialists like psychiatrists are expected to have that basic general skill set and knowledge base.

    For everything from doing differential diagnosis to not being useless if they're the only medical type available in an emergency. They of course prescribe drugs heavily, that's all they can get paid by insurers to do in the US today, but their chemical knowledge is empirical, how is this metabolized and how quickly, what are the interactions with other drugs and for example grapefruit, that being a metabolic issue which some at least in times past used to take less of certain expensive drugs.

    It wouldn’t be so much of an issue if the current cursus for selecting medical doctors yielded a sufficient number of medical doctors to meet demand. Insofar as it is generally acknowledged that the U.S. suffers from a “doctor shortage”
     
    As I understand it, the AMA tightly holds onto this, from medical school to residency slots. Fortunately the osteopaths are expanding all of the above to meet the demands of an aging population.

    to the point that proposals to permit nurses and physician assistants and the rest to begin practicing medicine within a certain scope,
     
    We've been there for decades, although unless they're in remote Alaska they work under the general supervision of a M.D. or D.O.
  249. @That Would Be Telling
    @Anon


    Should American colleges be allowed to admit foreigners? These foreigners come here and compete against Americans for seats, grades, spouses, and post-degree American jobs.
     
    That battle was lost in the mid-1980s, and Lord knows what it'll take to recover from it.

    Reagan picked one (((Erich Bloch))), an IBM EE manager without a Ph.D. or any science experience besides what he picked up in I'll admit an exciting period where he was the engineering manager for the 7030 STRETCH ... which was an ambitious Second System Syndrome failure that still taught IBM a lot and from memory I think he may have been the noteworthy leader who was rehabilitated inside IBM by the time of the wildly successful System/360.

    So the NSF started a huge campaign about how we didn't have enough scientists. Which was a blatant lie unless you weight by quality of course which is impossible at a large nation level when they're most productive. This was to simply stuff the pipeline with cheap graduate students and maybe postdocs most of whom would never get a good, real job in the field, let alone become a tenured professor. And of course the H-1B visa program came out of that. All in the cause of cheap bench level scientific labor.

    You've got to have a calling and wealth and/or a willingness to live cheaply to be a white male and go into science. And now of course be woke or fake it perfectly. Also sucks for women in academia who are the real thing since so few will get tenure, the raw math is brutal. Which itself is become passe, especially outside of R1 research universities where well fed administrators have taken to hiring lots of associate professors for cheap a term or two at a time, like the one that got sacked that's the topic of this iSteve posting.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    This is part of what destroyed my life.

    I got a PhD and the most I could do was get aw assistant professor position in a place I hated. That was after years of adjunct and temporary assignments.

    So I learned to code, and within a few months I was making more than double.

    Then the dot com bust happened. And they flooded the market of programmers with H1-B visas.

    Now, a senior programmer with over 20 years experience and my salary adjusted for inflation is about what I was making in 2000.

    The whole point is to get cheap labor for everything. The middle class is dying so fast in this country.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob, Mr. Anon
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Paleo Liberal

    Yes, the whole "we don't have enough scientists and engineers" line during the 80s and 90s was a load of crap. Universities and scientific societies pushed it in order to maintain the supply of cheap grad student labor for professors to exploit. But now those professors are dying off and the next generation of academics who did make tenure are knee-capping their own professions by giving into all the woke nonsense. I sense that in the case of many of them it is reluctantly. They started believing it, but as enough of these vicious young Race and Gender commisars got inside the tent, now the older profs are just afraid of what might happen to their careers.

    Academic science, both as a discipline and an enterprise, is dying.

  250. @Jack D
    @Anon

    The slots should go to the best qualified people.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Anon

    The slots should go to the best qualified people.

    In general practice or similar I think I’d want neither a triple dipped Affirmative Action case nor a bright foreigner who can’t speak proper English sufficient to communicate with me about my medical conditions and prognoses.

  251. @prosa123
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Another opportunity for my perennial question: “Is organic chemistry necessary for the study of medicine for a general practitioner, or is it simply a weeding out course as a barrier to entry into the medical profession?”
    Medical doctors I’ve asked this question tend to fall into the latter camp – it’s just a science-y hoop to jump through to keep the numbers down.


    Chemistry and chemical engineering majors also have to take it, however the article seems to focus on just pre-med students.

    Replies: @Meretricious, @fish, @Frank the Prof

    “Chemistry and chemical engineering majors also have to take it, however the article seems to focus on just pre-med students.”

    At many universities pre-med organic is a different and often easier course. Chemistry and chem E’s don’t find it a difficult one either. For chemists the big hump is physical chemistry, which consists of thermodynamics, kinetics and quantum.

  252. His Orgo textbook is in its Fifth Edition. Yeah, I think he’s a little bit of a famous teacher. And, from veterans of Orgo whose opinions I trust, if the snowflakes think they have it bad, they should have taken the course before Jones, it used to be sheer, raw rote memorization and now it is much less so.

    As to the making of doctors, your mission Mr Sailer (should you choose to accept it) is to try and find a book called Chasing the Neon H. It is apparently out of print (it’s tempting to think that the author said too much). A certain number of slots were reserved for “future leaders” (they probably got repurposed as diversity slots) who had easier courses available for them at Harvard Med. Not quite the Harvard Med School equivalent of OneL, but you would find it interesting if you can find it…

  253. @Bramble
    From the NYT article:

    Ryan Xue, who took the course, said he found Dr. Jones both likable and inspiring.

    "This is a big lecture course, and it also has the reputation of being a weed-out class," said Mr. Xue, who has transferred and is now a junior at Brown. "So there are people who will not get the best grades. Some of the comments might have been very heavily influenced by what grade students have gotten."
     

    It's not often that profs are described as "inspiring," let alone ones teaching weed-out science classes like organic chem, so this Jones guy must have been pretty good. That, or Xue is one of the few students who is mature, thoughtful, and has a genuine desire to learn. Making it all the more a shame that that NYU lost both of them--Jones to firing, Xue to transferring out.

    Or maybe it's fitting. This case seems like yet another example of entitled, pampered brats getting their way because mommy has money. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think you can pull this off at most other places. I actually took organic chemistry at a state university (Univ Cal system) filled with pre-meds, and while half the class got D's and F's, I don't recall any petitions to get the professor fired or censured in that course or any of the other science classes with comparably harsh curves. People who failed just retook the class either at the university or a nearby community college. There's simply a different mentality at public schools; students quickly learn that the school doesn't need you because, for one thing, the money you're paying is a pittance. By contrast, students at expensive private universities are more likely to feel that they can game the system; after all, that's how some of them got in to begin with

    Replies: @J.Ross, @That Would Be Telling

    There’s simply a different mentality at public schools; students quickly learn that the school doesn’t need you because, for one thing, the money you’re paying is a pittance. By contrast, students at expensive private universities are more likely to feel that they can game the system; after all, that’s how some of them got in to begin with

    Or not when I got into MIT except in 20/20 hindsight due to geographic distribution, which I’ll bet is no longer a thing for deep Red state flyover country and now JROTC, FFF, 4H etc. are big negatives, and demonstrating I could do projects, an extremely good predictor for success at MIT. Then again Caltech and MIT can’t fake it, can’t consider legacy admits until the student passes the bar of “can he do the work?” which removes most applicants from the admissions process in its first step.

    More importantly, even if the individual state school student is unimportant and his tuition etc. is small compared to that of a private school’s, both are golden to administrators because they’re unrestricted, they can spend the money on anything they want. See my numerous comments on how big endowments are often much less than they seem, in this discussion strangely enough most donors don’t trust the administration and earmark their funds, and of course they still get cheated. There are many legends about the woman who donated the money for Harvard’s main library building, which is awesome….

    I’d also note freshmen are cheap to teach, so admitting a lot and flunking a bunch of them out is likely a financial win. At MIT in the 1980s, about half their tuition … that radically changed as soon as they got out of the core science requirements and started using labs, $$$$$$$ computers, needed lower TA to student ratios for harder subjects like … organic chemistry! and so on. MIT also forgoes the overhead tax on undergraduate salaries for research, which of course incentivizes professors to hire them. In my two (unpaid) experiences there was also more than a bit of E.E. ‘Doc’ Smith’s beginning of Galactic Patrol, we worked on hard problems no one had come close to solving.

  254. @Half Canadian
    This makes the argument for separating the grader from the instructor.
    It's possible that he was not as good of an instructor at 84 than he was at 64. But you really can't compare course performance between instructors because they typically use different measurement tools (their own tests) to assign grades.
    But if you had something like an AP test for College Organic Chem, you could not only compare instructors within the same school, you could compare instructors between schools as well.
    And if you can bring in additional information, like SAT/ACT scores, AP test scores, etc, you could then control for cognitive ability.

    The real reason for this, though, should be to fight grade inflation. It really has gotten out of hand.

    www.gradeinflation.com

    Replies: @tr

    But if you had something like an AP test for College Organic Chem, you could not only compare instructors within the same school, you could compare instructors between schools as well.

    Like these? https://uwm.edu/acs-exams/instructors/assessment-materials/exams/

  255. Anonymous[311] • Disclaimer says:
    @R.G. Camara
    @Anon


    Organic chemistry is not hard to reason your way through. The problem is, it requires massive amounts of memorization. In anything even remotely connected to the biological sciences these days, the demand on your memory is massive.
     
    The popular flash card programs currently available for computers/cellphones are, actually, kind of a new hack of memory, since they not only allow you to make flashcards you can take on the go, but they also space the repetition of them out at set intervals that correspond to most memory studies. Thus, if you're doing your daily review, they'll keep them hidden for a week, spring them on you, then wait 2 weeks, etc. This aids kids who might not know which flash cards to review when, or might not want to bring a whole pack with them on the go. So maybe premed programs are having to adjust to the fact that grinder students are getting better at memorization.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    The popular flash card programs currently available for computers/cellphones are, actually, kind of a new hack of memory, since they not only allow you to make flashcards you can take on the go, but they also space the repetition of them out at set intervals that correspond to most memory studies.

    Do you have a reference or two for these programs?

    • Replies: @tr
    @Anonymous


    The popular flash card programs currently available for computers/cellphones are, actually, kind of a new hack of memory, since they not only allow you to make flashcards you can take on the go, but they also space the repetition of them out at set intervals that correspond to most memory studies.

    Do you have a reference or two for these programs?
     
    One example is Anki. A book on using it to learn foreign languages is Fluent Forever.
    , @R.G. Camara
    @Anonymous

    Anki is the big one. And its free. Lots of YouTube videos on how to use it.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Anki_(software)

  256. @Jack D
    @Anon

    The slots should go to the best qualified people.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Anon

    The slots should go to the best qualified people.

    They should go to the best qualified Americans, not to Africans or other foreigners.

  257. @Zero Philosopher
    "Students said the high-stakes course — notorious for ending many a dream of medical school — was too hard, blaming Dr. Jones for their poor test score."

    As a PhD biochemist, I sympathize. It's not the most straightforward thing in the World to understand. You have to really, *really* love it like I did to pursue it and gather the motivation to understand it. One of the happiest days of my lofe was when I turned 8, and I was givena full chemistry set for my birthday. A little nerd? Sure. But since I was both taller and better-looking than most boys, the nerd taunt never bothered me much. I just found the idea that everything is made of atoms, and that I could combine atoms to form almost anything that I wanted, extremely interesting and tantalizing.

    Having said all this, the organic chemstry that you need to learn to become an M.D is really, really, really simple and basic stuff. If you can't understand how the Krebs Cycle works, or how pyruvate dehydrogenase utilizes nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide to transform pyruvate into Acetyl-CoenzymeA, or how Selenium binds to proteins to form sellenoproteins, or how Zinc ions transfer works in cell surfaces via zinc finger proteins, etc. This is basic stuff. If you can't understand these things, then there is something seriously wrong with your brain. It's not like they are asking much of pre-med students, honestly.

    Replies: @epebble

    If you can’t understand how the Krebs Cycle works, or how pyruvate dehydrogenase utilizes nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide to transform pyruvate into Acetyl-CoenzymeA, or how Selenium binds to proteins to form sellenoproteins, or how Zinc ions transfer works in cell surfaces via zinc finger proteins, etc.

    I studied organic chemistry in college and never studied any of that. Everything sounds like Biochemistry to me.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @epebble

    There’s an o chem textbook, Organic Chemistry with a Biological Emphasis by Timothy Soderberg. I think it’s creative commons, but don’t have a link handy. The book’s theme is that most people doing o chem ate a lot more interested in biochemistry than organic synthesis. So it teaches o chem in the context of dilute solutions in water with enzymes instead of chemicals in high concentrations in organic solvents.

    The hard parts of o chem are the visuospatial things and memorizing abstract info, like a list of the ten best leaving groups in nucleophilic substitution or the pKa ranges for twenty different functional groups.

    These are skills that schools don’t emphasize. I think the former is because of the sex gap in vs ability. I don’t think teachers want to teach material where 14-year-old boys outshine them,

    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.

    I know people mature at different rates, but IQ at fourteen correlates well with IQ at 22, does it not? Like, maybe people who want to be neurosurgeons but have 95 IQs could be shunted into nursing or the various para health professionals.

    For anyone here with a knack for chemistry, is it possible to teach organic chemistry without teaching a bunch of people how to make meth?

    Replies: @epebble, @PhysicistDave, @Anon, @The Wobbly Guy

    , @Zero Philosopher
    @epebble

    "I studied organic chemistry in college and never studied any of that. Everything sounds like Biochemistry to me."

    If you studied organic chemistry(like me), then you didn't learn that directly because the teaching of pure organic chemistry is much more general and not geared towards physiology, which is what medical students learn in pre-med.

    Everything that I described is *the basic organic chemistry of life* And it is extremely relevant to one becoming a doctor. All of the chemistry of life is organic chemistry, because Carbon has this amazing ability to form tetravalent bonds that allows it to form extremely complex molecules, both structural as well as it can directly create energy via Carbon fixation. There are a few other elements with similar properties, like Silicon, but Silicon has other problems that precludes it from serving as a catalyst for life reactions.

    So. no, you are wrong in what you said. What "pure" organic chemistry students learn and what medical students learn in terms of organic chemistry are different. Organ chemistry majors learn much broader organic chemistry, while medical students learn organic chemistry that is relevant to human physiology.

  258. @Jack D
    @R.G. Camara


    Basically, this system is designed to allow you to actively listen without stenography,
     
    This is what I did during my entire educational career. I never took notes. If you are taking notes you can't be processing what you are hearing. If I needed notes I would get them from someone else (I usually didn't). In law school this was very systematized where certain people would prepare and circulate detailed class outlines.

    The fact that the class is on Zoom doesn't change this at all. Of course some people have the memory retention of a flea so if they don't write it down it's not available for recall later. But you can't memorize something that you never processed to begin with. When you take notes what you are hearing goes directly from your ear to your hand without really going thru your higher processing facilities - you might as well be taking down Swahili phonetically.

    Replies: @Ganderson, @scrivener3

    Plus one. your advice should be given to every student entering college.

    I was the typical scribbler of notes in college but before going to law school I bought a book about how to succeed in law school. The guy said most students even when reading the cases before class try to write the case (take accurate notes). He said just read the case as fast as you can to get what is going on. then read the case again more carefully – don’t write anything down. Then read the case again – on the third time you probably think entirely differently about the case than in the first reading. On the third reading you really understand the case.

    By the time I got to the Socratic discussion of the case, I knew more about it than 90% of the students.

    If you just trust yourself you will remember everything significant about the case if you once truly understand it. Now law school readings are relatively short, the old cases are remarkably compressed and short so reading the assignment three times was doable, but the concept applies everywhere. Really read, really listen, you will remember what you need or a few jots like two sentences will be enough to bring back the facts and the reasoning if you knew it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @scrivener3


    I was the typical scribbler of notes in college but before going to law school I bought a book about how to succeed in law school. The guy said most students even when reading the cases before class try to write the case (take accurate notes). He said just read the case as fast as you can to get what is going on.
     
    Can you really get what is going on if you are reading something for the first time and reading it fast?

    What was the name of the law school book?
  259. @prosa123
    Knowing NYU, it's my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.
    Also, it's somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @AndrewR, @fish, @Redman, @PiltdownMan, @Sam Hildebrand

    Also, it’s somewhat odd that an 84-year-old was entrusted with teaching such a vital course.

    Better than an Asian grad student with poor English skills.

  260. @Paleo Liberal
    @sb

    There are a number of elderly people who want to phase into retirement. This includes professionals who go from working insane hours to sane hours to few hours to none. For example my grandfather was an attorney who went from working all day every day to just taking the more interesting and lucrative cases to none at all.

    This is more common in Asian societies, and would probably be beneficial if it were more common in the US.

    There are a number of tenured professors who pretty much give up on their research in their later years and just teach a course or two. Quiet quitting of sorts. In this case the professor retired from an insane workload at Princeton and took on a much more relaxed workload at NYU. He could just do the teaching he loved and forget about the research.

    In earlier times the big organic textbook was Morrison and Boyd, who were both NYU professors. At one point they realized they were making far more money from their book than from their professor work. They retired and just worked on new editions of their book. Morrison went down to Florida and Boyd stayed in NYC. At that point NYU stopped using their book. I used to run across Boyd at times in NYC. Great guy to talk to. The remaining NYU professors pretty much shunned Morrison and Boyd after they retired. Jealousy perhaps.

    Replies: @prosa123

    There are a number of tenured professors who pretty much give up on their research in their later years and just teach a course or two. Quiet quitting of sorts. In this case the professor retired from an insane workload at Princeton and took on a much more relaxed workload at NYU. He could just do the teaching he loved and forget about the research.

    That makes sense as a general rule. What does not make sense is having Jones teach such a vitally important course, one that can change the trajectory of student lives in a way no other can.

  261. @War for Blair Mountain
    @That Would Be Telling

    That would be Telling

    Yes there is mathematical structure hidden in Organic Chemistry…and it’s not even hidden…I mean the Orthogonal Group gotta be in there somewhere…isometries and metric spaces also…

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain, @Shale boi

    Group theory is big in spectroscopy (bending moments affecting IR, etc.) You see it stressed a little more in inorganic than organic grad school, but still. And the inorganic is molecular, coordination compounds. Solid state inorganicers are more about space groups for crystallography, not point groups for IR, NMR.

    Here is a decent (and accessible) text:

    P.s. the funny thing is I first saw this comment outside the Steve-o-sphere….but thought this was such a Steve thing he would cover it. Guess my Bayesian instincts are sound…

    • Replies: @War for Blair Mountain
    @Shale boi

    I was going to ask about point groups…but you answered it…thanks…

  262. @ic1000
    @R.G. Camara

    > Knowing how the chemical processes vital to life and what can impede them –which is what organic chemistry teaches — is absolutely essential for every doctor.

    Well, that's pretty true. That course is Biochemistry, which pre-meds and bio majors take as an undergrad, and then aspiring doctors cover at a deeper level in the first year of medical school. Like our bodies, biochem is big on proteins, nucleic acids, lipids, and carbohydrates; enzymatic reactions take the top billing.

    Organic chemistry is mostly about hydrocarbons -- totally on-target for e.g. a refinery. It's challenging because it builds on general chemistry, but requires a lot of both rote memorization and subtle understanding. E.g. I studied how a molecule with an ethyl adduct will behave in this situation, what can I deduce or analogize about a molecule with an isopropyl adduct?

    So the successful student has to be smart (good recall and visual-spatial ability), diligent/conscientious ("do all of the problem sets"), and willing to learn an abstract science. It's somewhat like learning a new language.

    And a few parts of it do have subject-area relevance for certain advanced fields in medicine.

    Commenters who point out that organic chemistry has been the classic weed-out or sorting class for pre-meds are right. Yes, the choice of subject is arbitrary. Longstanding questions in medical education have been "Is this the best class to serve this function?," "How hard should the class be?," "What should be the lowest acceptable grade?," and "Should there be a weed-out class at all?"

    In these regards, it's like a lot of other social issues having to do with limited resources and the "best" way to allocate them. 82 of Maitland Jones' 350 students have weighed in; clearly 82 of the coveted medical school seats should go to them.

    Their future patients could not be reached for comment.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Zero Philosopher

    “Organic chemistry is mostly about hydrocarbons — totally on-target for e.g. a refinery.”

    This is one of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever read. Biochemists working at refineries? Wow. Do you have a working brain?

    • Replies: @AKAHorace
    @Zero Philosopher


    This is one of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever read. Biochemists working at refineries? Wow. Do you have a working brain?
     
    Read it again. I think that he meant organic chemists working refineries. And even if it was an ignorant comment your reply was over the top.
    , @Hibernian
    @Zero Philosopher

    Petroleum, and coal, are products of decayed organic matter. As has been discussed above, Organic Chemistry includes compounds such as methane, ethane, and longer chain hydrocarbons found in gasoline, kerosene, etc. Also discussed above is that Organic Chemistry and Biochemistry are two different, although closely related, subjects. Or are you engaging in deadpan sarcasm?

    I remember that a route to at least one alcohol was to chlorinate it and combine the chlorinated hydrocarbon with steam under high pressure at high temperature, possibly in the presence of a catalyst, I'm not sure. (I've never used this. For the last 13 years I've worked in construction management for a sewage treatment agency.)

  263. @Paleo Liberal
    @Jim Bob Lassiter

    I lived in Hawaii for a short time. It got to where I could tell the difference between a Japanese tourist and a local Japanese in a few seconds or less. Not just the way they dressed, but their entire demeanor. Not to mention the locals were darker, having spent more time in the tropical sun.

    I knew some Japanese foreign students. They were more Americanized (or Honoluluized) than the tourists but still acted somewhat Japanese.

    They tended to dress more American but not as downscale as the locals.

    So there are still often ways to tell the difference between a Japanese National and a Japanese American. The Japanese Americans just act more American.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Interesting and very plausible, but that wasn’t quite what my perverted prankster mind was getting at when messing with Steve. I had some experience on East Coast many years ago with Japanese and Anglo-Japanese offspring populations in a military town. It was a mixed bag of odd personality types.

  264. @Zero Philosopher
    @ic1000

    "Organic chemistry is mostly about hydrocarbons — totally on-target for e.g. a refinery."

    This is one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read. Biochemists working at refineries? Wow. Do you have a working brain?

    Replies: @AKAHorace, @Hibernian

    This is one of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever read. Biochemists working at refineries? Wow. Do you have a working brain?

    Read it again. I think that he meant organic chemists working refineries. And even if it was an ignorant comment your reply was over the top.

  265. @Brutusale
    @PiltdownMan

    https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-Dummies-Lifestyle/dp/1119293375

    Replies: @AKAHorace

    The dummies books are well written and for those who are trying to learn. A lot of science textbooks are written to impress other profs.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @AKAHorace


    The dummies books are well written and for those who are trying to learn.
     
    Are the Organic Chemistry ones in particular well written and good for learning?
  266. @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Jack D


    Idiot, this is not about (white) working class kids, it is about blacks who have a well known and unfixable by any known means 1SD gap in IQ. “Social justice” is a code word for “more blacks” so any g-loaded filter is by definition the opposite of social justice and has got to go.
     
    I don't think they'd fire the Professor if it was working class white kids doing the complaining, so you're almost certainly correct here. And I don't think working class white kids have been trained to complain, since no one listens anyway.

    What you have to watch out for is the cumulative Affirmative Action bonuses for blacks in professions like Medicine - first undergrad (now with an equity-corrupted organic chemistry course), then Medical School, and then residencies and so on. What happens at the terminus of these serial Affirmative Action bites at the apple?

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    What happens at the terminus of these serial Affirmative Action bites at the apple?

    Redd Foxx figured this out years ago. In the Sanford and Son episode Tooth or Consequences (which originally aired 50 years ago next Thursday) he insisted on a white dentist because they are better than black dentists. Of course, since this was a Norman Lear production, they made the white dentist an inexperienced intern and his black boss the most experienced guy in the clinic.

  267. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Paleo Liberal

    "A high percentage get injured during their residency. Not sure why"

    I imagine that, like butchers and carpenters, using very sharp implements daily carries injury hazard, and you can't protect yourself with chainsaw gloves!

    Orthopaedics I understand needs strength as well as skill. Applying strength to sharp things probably carries more risk than say brain surgery.

    I thought in the UK a lot of brain surgery tools were destroyed (melted down) after single use now - the risk of prions surviving autoclaving is too great. Prions seem hard to destroy. But apparently not so.

    https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/IPG666/InformationForPublic


    "for the procedures covered by this guidance, single use instruments cannot be recommended to reduce the risk of CJD transmission; this is because the evidence shows they are not cost effective"
     

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I thought in the UK a lot of brain surgery tools were destroyed (melted down) after single use now – the risk of prions surviving autoclaving is too great. Prions seem hard to destroy. But apparently not so.

    https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/IPG666/InformationForPublic

    “for the procedures covered by this guidance, single use instruments cannot be recommended to reduce the risk of CJD transmission; this is because the evidence shows they are not cost effective”

    NICE is the Orwellian named National Institute for Health and Care Excellence which has a major role in rationing medical care for the people stuck in the National Health System. Here they’re just saying they don’t want to spend the money for one use and then dispose instruments. Above that bullet item in the list they’re taking various chances in cleaning multiple use items, like keep the instruments moist and segregated before cleaning.

  268. @Zero Philosopher
    @ic1000

    "Organic chemistry is mostly about hydrocarbons — totally on-target for e.g. a refinery."

    This is one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read. Biochemists working at refineries? Wow. Do you have a working brain?

    Replies: @AKAHorace, @Hibernian

    Petroleum, and coal, are products of decayed organic matter. As has been discussed above, Organic Chemistry includes compounds such as methane, ethane, and longer chain hydrocarbons found in gasoline, kerosene, etc. Also discussed above is that Organic Chemistry and Biochemistry are two different, although closely related, subjects. Or are you engaging in deadpan sarcasm?

    I remember that a route to at least one alcohol was to chlorinate it and combine the chlorinated hydrocarbon with steam under high pressure at high temperature, possibly in the presence of a catalyst, I’m not sure. (I’ve never used this. For the last 13 years I’ve worked in construction management for a sewage treatment agency.)

  269. @Anonymous
    @R.G. Camara


    The popular flash card programs currently available for computers/cellphones are, actually, kind of a new hack of memory, since they not only allow you to make flashcards you can take on the go, but they also space the repetition of them out at set intervals that correspond to most memory studies.
     
    Do you have a reference or two for these programs?

    Replies: @tr, @R.G. Camara

    The popular flash card programs currently available for computers/cellphones are, actually, kind of a new hack of memory, since they not only allow you to make flashcards you can take on the go, but they also space the repetition of them out at set intervals that correspond to most memory studies.

    Do you have a reference or two for these programs?

    One example is Anki. A book on using it to learn foreign languages is Fluent Forever.

    • Thanks: R.G. Camara
  270. @PhysicistDave
    @dearieme

    dearieme wrote:


    It did make me wonder, vaguely, whether the whole course shouldn’t have been based simply on directed reading and lab work. But my classmates insisted that lectures were necessary. I suspect they were right, but why? Why do lectures, designed for an age before Gutenberg, still have utility?
     
    I took two years of courses, which were really a bit above my level, from Richard Feynman because he was a really great lecturer.

    I also heard Luis Alvarez give a lecture on the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs before he and his colleagues had published their results: word went out among the grad students at Stanford that Luis was coming across the Bay and had something important to talk about. Absolutely brilliant lecture: we were all stunned and completely convinced that they had nailed it.

    A great lecturer can really make a subject come alive.

    The problem of course is that, by and large, you do not become a university prof by being a great lecturer. Not all that many rise to the level even of mediocrity. The system does need to change.

    Replies: @David Davenport

    I also heard Luis Alvarez give a lecture on the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs before he and his colleagues had published their results: word went out among the grad students at Stanford that Luis was coming across the Bay and had something important to talk about. Absolutely brilliant lecture: we were all stunned and completely convinced that they had nailed it.

    A great lecturer can really make a subject come alive.

    Long lectures are basically pre-Gutenberg. You listen to a long university lecture, some approaching 1:30 minutes in non-stop length, and frantically take notes because … why?

    Because before the Gutenberg, there were none or not many books to buy, and no Youtube containing worthwhile 12 to 15 minute lectures on an array of science and mathematics topics, some of them quite abstruse. These lectures can be played over and over, or stopped to take notes, or played faster or slower.

    Long university lectures as standard fare are obsolete. Lecturers such as Richard Feynman can indeed be inspiring, but my experience has been that most U. lectures are not inspiring.

    I agree with Jack D. that I could seldom really absorb what the professor was saying if I was business taking notes on everything the prof. said. @ Jack D

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @David Davenport

    David Davenport wrote to me:


    Long lectures are basically pre-Gutenberg. You listen to a long university lecture, some approaching 1:30 minutes in non-stop length, and frantically take notes because … why?
     
    Well... in my four undergrad years, I believe I took three pages of notes. Total.

    My theory was that they were talking, and therefore it was my job to listen and try to understand.

    I graduated with a 4.0 from Caltech, so I guess it worked.

    In fairness, there was one class where the professor decided not to use a textbook for the first quarter and instead scribbled dozens of blackboards worth of equations throughout the lecture: we had those sliding blackboards -- he'd fill them all up (nine total, I think)... and then erase and start over. Fortunately, there were two women in the class who could take notes as fast as the prof could scribble on the boards, and so we all used their notes.

    After the first quarter, he deigned to use a textbook, so we stopped going to class (the only college class that I generally cut).

    Aside from that one class, I really did rely on the textbook and on my memory of the lecture.

    My point here is that the lecture really should not just be regurgitating the textbook or dumping material on the students that should be in a textbook. The lecture should be an opportunity for the lecturer to help the students get a different perspective that helps them grasp the material in the textbook.

    To be sure, that requires more effort than a lot of profs are willing to exert.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous

  271. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    NYU sold its campus in the South Bronx (?) and moved to Greenwich Village about 50 years ago. (A smart move.) It doesn't have a campus like a traditional US college in Thomas Jefferson mode for the U. of Virginia. It's more like a Parisian college with buildings here and there around Washington Square. It does own a lot of land, but it's not like Rice U., which has steadily expanded into its vast football stadium parking lot for generations.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @ScarletNumber

    Rice U., which has steadily expanded into its vast football stadium parking lot for generations

    Since Rice is now a G5 school (the lower-level of the upper tier of college football) they don’t draw big crowds for football games any more. Crosstown rival Houston is making the jump to the Big XII next year, creating a chasm between the two schools.

  272. @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Anonymous



    NYU is in a bit of a pickle given its comparatively small endowment and the fact that it is in one of the highest cost real estate markets in the nation, making expansions for classroom space and dormitories prohibitively expensive.
     
    Doesn’t NYU already own most of the land it is on? If so, it is sheltered from high real estate prices.

     

    If you've been around Universities in the last 20 years or so you'd understand that they're like sharks - they seem to feel the need to expand by consuming new land or that they'll die. They're adding country club like amenities to attract more would-be student applicants, and it's important that they have brand new labs and lecture halls and dormitories and student centers and gyms and so forth.

    So my point is that NYU can't as easily expand and add space as colleges surrounded by more abundant or cheaper land.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Rice U. owns a 300 acre campus. When I was there, half of it was empty parking lot for the 70,000 seat football stadium that only filled up when U of Texas or Texas A&M came to play. Now, much of it has been converted to academic buildings, allowing Rice to boost enrollment.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Steve Sailer


    Now, much of it has been converted to academic buildings, allowing Rice to boost enrollment.
     
    One would think that boosting enrollment could drive up the acceptance rate and drive down the USNWR ranking.
  273. @epebble
    @Zero Philosopher


    If you can’t understand how the Krebs Cycle works, or how pyruvate dehydrogenase utilizes nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide to transform pyruvate into Acetyl-CoenzymeA, or how Selenium binds to proteins to form sellenoproteins, or how Zinc ions transfer works in cell surfaces via zinc finger proteins, etc.
     


    I studied organic chemistry in college and never studied any of that. Everything sounds like Biochemistry to me.

    Replies: @Rob, @Zero Philosopher

    There’s an o chem textbook, Organic Chemistry with a Biological Emphasis by Timothy Soderberg. I think it’s creative commons, but don’t have a link handy. The book’s theme is that most people doing o chem ate a lot more interested in biochemistry than organic synthesis. So it teaches o chem in the context of dilute solutions in water with enzymes instead of chemicals in high concentrations in organic solvents.

    The hard parts of o chem are the visuospatial things and memorizing abstract info, like a list of the ten best leaving groups in nucleophilic substitution or the pKa ranges for twenty different functional groups.

    These are skills that schools don’t emphasize. I think the former is because of the sex gap in vs ability. I don’t think teachers want to teach material where 14-year-old boys outshine them,

    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.

    I know people mature at different rates, but IQ at fourteen correlates well with IQ at 22, does it not? Like, maybe people who want to be neurosurgeons but have 95 IQs could be shunted into nursing or the various para health professionals.

    For anyone here with a knack for chemistry, is it possible to teach organic chemistry without teaching a bunch of people how to make meth?

    • Replies: @epebble
    @Rob


    visuospatial things and memorizing abstract info, like a list of the ten best leaving groups in nucleophilic substitution or the pKa ranges for twenty different functional groups.
     


    I think organic chemistry has lot more analytical knowledge than just 3-D shapes and memorizing lists. e.g. This discussion is way more intricate than memorizing how to assemble balls and sticks or list of functional groups.

    Which carbons in pyrrole have the highest electron density?
    https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/64418/which-carbons-in-pyrrole-have-the-highest-electron-density
    , @PhysicistDave
    @Rob

    Rob asked epebble:


    For anyone here with a knack for chemistry, is it possible to teach organic chemistry without teaching a bunch of people how to make meth?
     
    I'll defer to the chemists here, but I am pretty sure the answer is "No."

    I myself synthesized sulfanilamide in a summer science program when I was in high school. I still have the test tube with the stuff somewhere: who knows when you'll need an antibacterial drug?

    And I was pretty bad in chem lab. So, anyone who made it through OChem lab would, I suspect, find it pretty trivial to synthesize meth.

    (Yes, I know your question was rhetorical.)

    Replies: @epebble

    , @Anon
    @Rob


    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.
     
    Would testing for spatial ability disadvantage Jews vis-a-vis Europeans though?

    How important is it to test specifically for spatial ability when selecting for future surgeons? Does spatial ability get tested for indirectly by other filters like Organic Chemistry?

    Replies: @Rob

    , @The Wobbly Guy
    @Rob


    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.
     
    We do this in Singapore, and in countries which do not use the pre-med system, but rather direct admission to medicine. Why waste time?

    Admissions for my country's premier medical course. Maths and Chemistry are the must-have subjects for applicants, who must take the local modified version of the A Level examinations at the age of 18/19.
    https://medicine.nus.edu.sg/prospective-students/nus-medicine-pre-requisites/

    I've talked about the chemistry syllabus in my country before, and here's the one for maths. It's also quite difficult.
    https://www.seab.gov.sg/docs/default-source/national-examinations/syllabus/alevel/2022syllabus/9758_y22_sy.pdf

    The requirements for entering medicine sounds bland, but a near-perfect score is required to even get to the interview stage.
  274. @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @dearieme

    Presumably, lectures do allow students to ask questions of the instructor in order to clarify hard to understand topics covered in the lectures. Some of the questions asked will, of course, reflect the dullness or laziness of the student; others might reflect the poor delivery methods of content by the instructor or a poorly written textbook and others may simply reflect on the usefulness of a little back and forth between the student and the teacher.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    In classes with 350 students, nobody asks questions. They save the questions and ask their TAs in recitation sections.

  275. @Rob
    @epebble

    There’s an o chem textbook, Organic Chemistry with a Biological Emphasis by Timothy Soderberg. I think it’s creative commons, but don’t have a link handy. The book’s theme is that most people doing o chem ate a lot more interested in biochemistry than organic synthesis. So it teaches o chem in the context of dilute solutions in water with enzymes instead of chemicals in high concentrations in organic solvents.

    The hard parts of o chem are the visuospatial things and memorizing abstract info, like a list of the ten best leaving groups in nucleophilic substitution or the pKa ranges for twenty different functional groups.

    These are skills that schools don’t emphasize. I think the former is because of the sex gap in vs ability. I don’t think teachers want to teach material where 14-year-old boys outshine them,

    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.

    I know people mature at different rates, but IQ at fourteen correlates well with IQ at 22, does it not? Like, maybe people who want to be neurosurgeons but have 95 IQs could be shunted into nursing or the various para health professionals.

    For anyone here with a knack for chemistry, is it possible to teach organic chemistry without teaching a bunch of people how to make meth?

    Replies: @epebble, @PhysicistDave, @Anon, @The Wobbly Guy

    visuospatial things and memorizing abstract info, like a list of the ten best leaving groups in nucleophilic substitution or the pKa ranges for twenty different functional groups.

    I think organic chemistry has lot more analytical knowledge than just 3-D shapes and memorizing lists. e.g. This discussion is way more intricate than memorizing how to assemble balls and sticks or list of functional groups.

    Which carbons in pyrrole have the highest electron density?
    https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/64418/which-carbons-in-pyrrole-have-the-highest-electron-density

  276. @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @That Would Be Telling


    It’s a lot of work, and if you can’t do it you’re not likely to become an adequate doctor. Even if you were to become for example a psychiatrist you need the more general medical education to know when something else is going on. You’re also expected to have a clue in emergencies.
     
    Perhaps but my unscientific survey of doctors runs at near uniform "no, I don't use organic chemistry in the practice of medicine, nor did I rely upon it in medical school."

    It wouldn't be so much of an issue if the current cursus for selecting medical doctors yielded a sufficient number of medical doctors to meet demand. Insofar as it is generally acknowledged that the U.S. suffers from a "doctor shortage" to the point that proposals to permit nurses and physician assistants and the rest to begin practicing medicine within a certain scope, it is perhaps time to reevaluate how someone becomes a medical doctor, and determine whether all of the requisites are selecting for the best doctor candidates or merely cutting away people who can't master organic chemistry or some other subject which is nevertheless not predictive of being a good doctor.

    My sense is that there is a substantial difference in specialized knowledge between being a general practitioner or dermatologist or Obstetrician versus a neurosurgeon, and I think as long as we don't have enough doctors generally we should try to modernize the selection system to recognize such differences.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Perhaps but my unscientific survey of doctors runs at near uniform “no, I don’t use organic chemistry in the practice of medicine, nor did I rely upon it in medical school.”

    Sorry I wasn’t clear, I meant to say the skills you demonstrate in doing well in organic chemistry map straight into the skills required to learn general medicine, and even specialists like psychiatrists are expected to have that basic general skill set and knowledge base.

    For everything from doing differential diagnosis to not being useless if they’re the only medical type available in an emergency. They of course prescribe drugs heavily, that’s all they can get paid by insurers to do in the US today, but their chemical knowledge is empirical, how is this metabolized and how quickly, what are the interactions with other drugs and for example grapefruit, that being a metabolic issue which some at least in times past used to take less of certain expensive drugs.

    It wouldn’t be so much of an issue if the current cursus for selecting medical doctors yielded a sufficient number of medical doctors to meet demand. Insofar as it is generally acknowledged that the U.S. suffers from a “doctor shortage”

    As I understand it, the AMA tightly holds onto this, from medical school to residency slots. Fortunately the osteopaths are expanding all of the above to meet the demands of an aging population.

    to the point that proposals to permit nurses and physician assistants and the rest to begin practicing medicine within a certain scope,

    We’ve been there for decades, although unless they’re in remote Alaska they work under the general supervision of a M.D. or D.O.

  277. @BosTex
    @That Would Be Telling

    It used to be such a good deal for the smart Irish, Italian and Jewish kids of the Boston area who came from very, very modest means. (Like me! I am actually mostly Swedish, English and Spanish. Whatever! I look Irish).

    (If you are rich Irish: you go to BC. If you are rich Jewish you go to BU. If you are rich Italian…business major at Bentley!)

    I was there in the 1980s, early 90s. I think the net cost for my degree was $25k or less (I also worked full time for an employer that had a crazy good tuition reimbursement policy.)

    As you note: not a fancy campus. Do not walk over to Columbus Ave at night! Nasty black projects there.

    Used to be Plain Jane, but really decent quality, across the board, especially their vocational oriented programs (stress on work/study, so nice offset to expense): engineering, computer science, business, physical therapy, law enforcement. All really strong.

    I think the main down side is that there was no national presence to the school. Decently known in New England and mid Atlantic, that was it.

    Whatever. You can’t have everything. I am sure it is more nationally known now, but just loaded with subcons. I’ll take the old school, any day.

    Just a crazy and radical change from the traditional student body that was there, I think for the better part of a century.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    Northeastern has done several things to get themselves a higher US News ranking. Note that NYU does most or all of these as well

    [MORE]

    1. Lots of foreign students. Usually second only to NYU which has more students. Occasionally they have more foreign students than NYU. On a percentage basis, they have more than any other big university.

    2. Multiple campuses. Many abroad. These students don’t count in the rankings. For example, NU recently purchased a women’s college in California. These are essentially a fourth tier of students. These campuses are also used for Boston campus students who want a semester or year abroad.

    3. The “NU in” program. Rich students who can’t get acceptance in their main admissions. They spend their first semester abroad in a different NU campus, then to Boston for the Spring semester. Their places are taken abroad by students who want a spring semester abroad. These students aren’t part of the main admission so they don’t bring down the rankings. Sort of a third tier, and far less financial aid. That is why mostly rich kids.

    4. Honors students. These are a special first tier who get special privileges. This is to entice the really top students to attend NU. Note that many other colleges do this as well.

    5. Very good financial aid compared to their peer schools. Of course an Ivy or similar top tier school will have even better aid, but this is to entice students away from BU or NYU, for example. This is especially for their first (honors) and second (regular) tier students. But the first and second tiers are what counts in the US News rankings.

    6. An excellent co-op program. One of the very best in the country, if not THE best. Work experience can be vital to landing the first job.

    7. A few extremely strong programs like Public Health, which entices pre-meds. The idea being that someone who washes out of the pre-med program at least has a degree from one of the very top public health programs, while someone who washes out of the pre-med program at NYU is stuck with a second rate biochemistry degree. Also, pre-med washouts can go into the NU pharmacy program. I did know a pharmacy student at LIU in Brooklyn who had washed out of the NYU pre-med program. Had she been at NU she wouldn’t have needed to transfer.

    • Replies: @BosTex
    @Paleo Liberal

    Great summary, I appreciate it. I don’t keep track of what is going on there.

    Replies: @Brutusale

  278. @Paleo Liberal
    @That Would Be Telling

    This is part of what destroyed my life.

    I got a PhD and the most I could do was get aw assistant professor position in a place I hated. That was after years of adjunct and temporary assignments.

    So I learned to code, and within a few months I was making more than double.

    Then the dot com bust happened. And they flooded the market of programmers with H1-B visas.

    Now, a senior programmer with over 20 years experience and my salary adjusted for inflation is about what I was making in 2000.

    The whole point is to get cheap labor for everything. The middle class is dying so fast in this country.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Yes, the whole “we don’t have enough scientists and engineers” line during the 80s and 90s was a load of crap. Universities and scientific societies pushed it in order to maintain the supply of cheap grad student labor for professors to exploit. But now those professors are dying off and the next generation of academics who did make tenure are knee-capping their own professions by giving into all the woke nonsense. I sense that in the case of many of them it is reluctantly. They started believing it, but as enough of these vicious young Race and Gender commisars got inside the tent, now the older profs are just afraid of what might happen to their careers.

    Academic science, both as a discipline and an enterprise, is dying.

  279. @FPD72
    @YetAnotherAnon

    The Karl-Peter Griesemann crash brought to mind the death of golf great Payne Stewart, in which all aboard a Lear Jet died of hypoxia. The plane flew Northwest until it ran out of fuel and crashed in South Dakota, just months after Stewart’s victory in the 1999 US Open.

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    Payne Stewart died on October 25.

    A few days later, in the wee hours of Halloween morning, the captain of an EgyptAir 767 en route from New York to Cairo left the cockpit to use the toilet. The co-pilot said a quick prayer and then initiated a nosedive into the ocean. The plane hit the water about 60 miles off Nantucket. There were no survivors.

  280. @That Would Be Telling
    @PhysicistDave


    Thankfully, as a physics major, I did not need to take it: I view OChem as sorta a House of Horrors.
     
    You are not entirely wrong. Derek "Things I Won't Work With" Lowe devotes some of his blog postings to various details of that; here's my favorite of things he'll work with:

    Let me speak metaphorically, for those outside the field or who have never had the experience. Total synthesis of a complex natural product is like. . .it's like assembling a huge balloon sculpture, all twists and turns, knots and bulges, only half of the balloons are rubber and half of them are made of blown glass. And you can't just reach in and grab the thing, either, and they don't give you any pliers or glue. What you get is a huge pile of miscellaneous stuff - bamboo poles, cricket bats, spiral-wound copper tubing, balsa-wood dowels, and several barrels of even more mixed-up junk: croquet balls, doughnuts, wadded-up aluminum foil, wobbly Frisbees, and so on.

    The balloon sculpture is your molecule. The piles of junk are the available chemical methods you use to assemble it. Gradually, you work out that if you brace this part over here in a cradle of used fence posts, held together with turkey twine, you can poke this part over here into it in a way that makes it stick if you just use that right-angled metal doohicky to hold it from the right while you hit the top end of it with a thrown tennis ball at the right angle. Step by step, this is how you proceed. Some of the steps are pretty obvious, and work more or less the way you pictured them, using things that are on top of one of the junk piles. Others require you to rummage through the whole damn collection, whittling parts down and tying stuff together to assemble some tool that you don't have, maybe something that no one has ever made at all.
     
    But for someone with physical intuition but much weaker at math than you, the right sort of memory and being both a wordcel and shape-rotator it's what revealed chemistry was my calling.

    Note for the above, in first term organic chemistry you're at least expected to understand all sorts of details about the molecules in questions, how their different parts behave which feeds into the above sorts of synthesis, and the most fun is in the "natural" bit, that implies is has one or more chiral centers, generally a carbon atom bonded tetrahedrally to four other atoms which has a "handiness," is by convention "right" or "left" handed, dextro/d-/'+" or levo/l-/"." Note for example we can only? usefully? take up left handed amino acids to then synthesize proteins.

    So when you do reactions on chiral reagents, you have to be very careful to maintain that handiness and not produce a racemic mixture that's 50/50 of each.... And I'll have more to say about this topic in my next post because of an amazing result in this year's chemistry Nobel which was just announced.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    That Would Be Telling wrote to me:

    Note for the above, in first term organic chemistry you’re at least expected to understand all sorts of details about the molecules in questions, how their different parts behave which feeds into the above sorts of synthesis, and the most fun is in the “natural” bit, that implies is has one or more chiral centers, generally a carbon atom bonded tetrahedrally to four other atoms which has a “handiness,” is by convention “right” or “left” handed, dextro/d-/’+” or levo/l-/”.” Note for example we can only? usefully? take up left handed amino acids to then synthesize proteins.

    Of course, as a physicist, I understand all that: back in my student days, I even knew how to use character tables from group theory to figure out which transitions were allowed/prohibited. And MO theory comes pretty naturally to me: QM is my bread and butter.

    And yet… it is still all magic. You guys have this way of thinking that transcends normal human minds.

    I’ve been looking into the history of chemistry recently: they figured out all this stuff without being able to see the molecules or atoms. We physicists, even when dealing with subatomic particles, can sort of “see” them: tracks in cloud chambers or bubble chambers or, nowadays, more sophisticated detectors that provide great computer graphics displays.

    We physicists pretend to look down upon chemists, but, in truth, we know you guys can do stuff we could never do.

  281. @Paleo Liberal
    @BosTex

    Northeastern has done several things to get themselves a higher US News ranking. Note that NYU does most or all of these as well



    1. Lots of foreign students. Usually second only to NYU which has more students. Occasionally they have more foreign students than NYU. On a percentage basis, they have more than any other big university.

    2. Multiple campuses. Many abroad. These students don’t count in the rankings. For example, NU recently purchased a women’s college in California. These are essentially a fourth tier of students. These campuses are also used for Boston campus students who want a semester or year abroad.

    3. The “NU in” program. Rich students who can’t get acceptance in their main admissions. They spend their first semester abroad in a different NU campus, then to Boston for the Spring semester. Their places are taken abroad by students who want a spring semester abroad. These students aren’t part of the main admission so they don’t bring down the rankings. Sort of a third tier, and far less financial aid. That is why mostly rich kids.

    4. Honors students. These are a special first tier who get special privileges. This is to entice the really top students to attend NU. Note that many other colleges do this as well.

    5. Very good financial aid compared to their peer schools. Of course an Ivy or similar top tier school will have even better aid, but this is to entice students away from BU or NYU, for example. This is especially for their first (honors) and second (regular) tier students. But the first and second tiers are what counts in the US News rankings.

    6. An excellent co-op program. One of the very best in the country, if not THE best. Work experience can be vital to landing the first job.

    7. A few extremely strong programs like Public Health, which entices pre-meds. The idea being that someone who washes out of the pre-med program at least has a degree from one of the very top public health programs, while someone who washes out of the pre-med program at NYU is stuck with a second rate biochemistry degree. Also, pre-med washouts can go into the NU pharmacy program. I did know a pharmacy student at LIU in Brooklyn who had washed out of the NYU pre-med program. Had she been at NU she wouldn’t have needed to transfer.

    Replies: @BosTex

    Great summary, I appreciate it. I don’t keep track of what is going on there.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @BosTex

    Things are changing pretty quickly in Boston. I know people are surprised when I say that the city is headed down, but photos lie less than words.

    https://www.bostonherald.com/2022/10/05/juvenile-accused-of-shooting-student-at-dorchesters-jeremiah-burke-high-school-held-without-bail/

    No Bostonian of a certain age would have believed that a picture like this would ever happen. How'd you like to be that token white cop?

    Replies: @BosTex

  282. One of the great benefits I have teaching middle school math at a school with 80% Hispanic and just 20% Black is dealing with parents

    Never has a parent complaining to me concerning their grades. My wife opened my eyes after teaching in a wealthy school district, which has high performing students and parents. The worst part was having the parents on her case each week when their child received less than an A

    [MORE]

    Now she teaches at a school with a bilingual program…She teaches Biology and Chemistry in Spanish. 100% of her students speak Spanish, most arrived in America within the last 3 years. If she tries to teach them in English she risks losing her job, and the bilingual cert gives her a bigger salary than those teaching in English, like me. While the administration is 90% Black the district gets a $5,000 bonus for every student in the bilingual program. Plus the Hispanic students are docile and rarely cause problems so they can fit 30 students in each class, while the general Ed typically has just 22 students per class, but 4 are Black. The bilingual population is completely segregated in another building, so she never has to see or deal with any Black Students.

    The school district was 90% Black 20 years ago and it was difficult keeping teachers….but today it is a better environment than the white schools, since more than 80% of the students are Hispanic. Teaching my classes now is a dream since my typical class has just 2 Black Boys. Just 3 years ago the typical class had 4 Black boys per class….it is like teaching at a different school now, although all the administrators and principals are still Black. This year all the teachers are stunned, by reducing the Black population from 30% to the current 20% has made a world of difference and the number of students in the bilingual program keeps growing, which gets the school increased funding from the state. On the down side these Hispanic kids are all from Central America and are actually less intelligent than the Blacks. Usually my best student in each class is Black or Dominican. The worst students tend to be from Guatemala or Honduras but I have some 2 bright students from Salvador each year. From my experience I would put the average Black IQ higher than the Central America mestizos. Much of this could be due to them speaking Spanish at home and being very timid in school. They rarely speak unless you direct a question to them, and they hide behind heir masks to avoid being called on. 90% of my Hispanic students are still wearing cloth masks while just half the Blacks are still wearing masks. We ended the mask mandate in April 2022, yet most of the staff and students continue to submit.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco

    I taught for a little while at a college where about half my students were Latin American and about half were Caribbean. It was quite pleasant. Since I taught English language sections, I got the best of the Latin students. The ones who were dull or lazy always took the Spanish language sections.

  283. @That Would Be Telling
    @Houston 1992


    btw there is some very specific feedback on what Jones might have been doing wrong.
    https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1052652
     
    They're not useful. I've read the whole set of student reviews of a MIT professor who completely blew teaching a course outside of his specialty that he nonetheless understands and cares about along with caring very much about teaching well, then listened in an adjacent office as the department sat him down and made him read every one and then tell him he'd never be allowed to teach the course again (MIT really cares about undergraduate education and being an adequate instructor is required to get tenure).

    These reviews are all over the place, although there may be some false ones, I read too many that fit a template of "I was playing [varying] video game during the real time lectures, but the book etc. was fine to learn the material." They're what you'd expect from an inherently tough subject for which a large fraction simply don't have what it takes, as we've been told from NYU being a premier premed school that nonetheless weeds out a lot of those on that track.

    And if every lecture makes you cry, you're definitely not got what's required to be a life and death doctor, what will you did when you lose patients? What when that's because you made an acceptable but tragic mistake?

    Since the textbook is his writing, its the same as listening to his lectures.
     
    That's clearly not the case unless he'd suffered enough age induced cognitive decline for that and some of the other claimed bad behavior drove some of this 2022 debacle that ended with his being fired.

    Turns out I learned first term under a professor who was the coauthor of the book, the other author was instead of research one a premed oriented one at a selective but much less college. I assure you a good lecturer can do a lot better than repeat what's in his book. My favorite anecdote he related was about a chemical plant using the pot method that suddenly had their yields of a product go to hell. They couldn't figure out what was going on and finally resorted to 24x7 video camera surveillance. Which revealed a janitorial type was relieving himself into the "pot."

    Obviously this wouldn't be interesting except for the fact that guy was getting old and working fewer nights and the bad yields happened when he didn't do this. Something in his urine complexed with a contaminant and allowed it to be removed, the company's problem was that they didn't fully understand the real process they were using to make it.

    And he otherwise augmented and helped us understand the material that again was pretty much all in his book, which circumstances forced me to learn alone from for the end of the semester. Note though I'm not a representative example for the body of students who take organic and especially the premeds, was science track and am both a wordcel and shape-rotator.

    Replies: @Rob, @Anon, @James B. Shearer

    “… My favorite anecdote he related was about a chemical plant using the pot method that suddenly had their yields of a product go to hell. ..”

    I suspect this is an urban legend. In the version I heard it was a Swiss gold company that wondered why their gold had lost its special luster. And the recently retired employee responsible hated the company.

  284. @David Davenport
    @PhysicistDave

    I also heard Luis Alvarez give a lecture on the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs before he and his colleagues had published their results: word went out among the grad students at Stanford that Luis was coming across the Bay and had something important to talk about. Absolutely brilliant lecture: we were all stunned and completely convinced that they had nailed it.

    A great lecturer can really make a subject come alive.


    Long lectures are basically pre-Gutenberg. You listen to a long university lecture, some approaching 1:30 minutes in non-stop length, and frantically take notes because ... why?

    Because before the Gutenberg, there were none or not many books to buy, and no Youtube containing worthwhile 12 to 15 minute lectures on an array of science and mathematics topics, some of them quite abstruse. These lectures can be played over and over, or stopped to take notes, or played faster or slower.

    Long university lectures as standard fare are obsolete. Lecturers such as Richard Feynman can indeed be inspiring, but my experience has been that most U. lectures are not inspiring.

    I agree with Jack D. that I could seldom really absorb what the professor was saying if I was business taking notes on everything the prof. said. @ Jack D

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    David Davenport wrote to me:

    Long lectures are basically pre-Gutenberg. You listen to a long university lecture, some approaching 1:30 minutes in non-stop length, and frantically take notes because … why?

    Well… in my four undergrad years, I believe I took three pages of notes. Total.

    My theory was that they were talking, and therefore it was my job to listen and try to understand.

    I graduated with a 4.0 from Caltech, so I guess it worked.

    In fairness, there was one class where the professor decided not to use a textbook for the first quarter and instead scribbled dozens of blackboards worth of equations throughout the lecture: we had those sliding blackboards — he’d fill them all up (nine total, I think)… and then erase and start over. Fortunately, there were two women in the class who could take notes as fast as the prof could scribble on the boards, and so we all used their notes.

    After the first quarter, he deigned to use a textbook, so we stopped going to class (the only college class that I generally cut).

    Aside from that one class, I really did rely on the textbook and on my memory of the lecture.

    My point here is that the lecture really should not just be regurgitating the textbook or dumping material on the students that should be in a textbook. The lecture should be an opportunity for the lecturer to help the students get a different perspective that helps them grasp the material in the textbook.

    To be sure, that requires more effort than a lot of profs are willing to exert.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @PhysicistDave

    I am glad to hear that so many here agree with my "listen to the lecture and don't spend all your time taking notes" approach. It always seemed to me as if most of my classmates were furiously scribbling in their notebooks.

    However, I think that what we have here is not a true cross-section (so I am hesitant to say that this is the best approach for everyone). The key to not taking notes is having a memory like a steel trap. Most people's memories are more like a leaky sieve - in one ear and out the other so unless you capture it on paper it is gone with the wind. But like many things in life (which is not fair or "equitable" - the One who distributes gifts does not give them out evenly) , you go from strength to strength and weakness to weakness - having a strong memory gives you the luxury of allowing yourself to give your full undivided attention to listening and comprehending and memorizing instead of scribbling.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Wobbly Guy, @PhysicistDave, @Jim Don Bob

    , @Anonymous
    @PhysicistDave


    Aside from that one class, I really did rely on the textbook and on my memory of the lecture.
     
    What kind of preparation did you do before the lectures?

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

  285. @epebble
    @Zero Philosopher


    If you can’t understand how the Krebs Cycle works, or how pyruvate dehydrogenase utilizes nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide to transform pyruvate into Acetyl-CoenzymeA, or how Selenium binds to proteins to form sellenoproteins, or how Zinc ions transfer works in cell surfaces via zinc finger proteins, etc.
     


    I studied organic chemistry in college and never studied any of that. Everything sounds like Biochemistry to me.

    Replies: @Rob, @Zero Philosopher

    “I studied organic chemistry in college and never studied any of that. Everything sounds like Biochemistry to me.”

    If you studied organic chemistry(like me), then you didn’t learn that directly because the teaching of pure organic chemistry is much more general and not geared towards physiology, which is what medical students learn in pre-med.

    Everything that I described is *the basic organic chemistry of life* And it is extremely relevant to one becoming a doctor. All of the chemistry of life is organic chemistry, because Carbon has this amazing ability to form tetravalent bonds that allows it to form extremely complex molecules, both structural as well as it can directly create energy via Carbon fixation. There are a few other elements with similar properties, like Silicon, but Silicon has other problems that precludes it from serving as a catalyst for life reactions.

    So. no, you are wrong in what you said. What “pure” organic chemistry students learn and what medical students learn in terms of organic chemistry are different. Organ chemistry majors learn much broader organic chemistry, while medical students learn organic chemistry that is relevant to human physiology.

  286. @Rob
    @epebble

    There’s an o chem textbook, Organic Chemistry with a Biological Emphasis by Timothy Soderberg. I think it’s creative commons, but don’t have a link handy. The book’s theme is that most people doing o chem ate a lot more interested in biochemistry than organic synthesis. So it teaches o chem in the context of dilute solutions in water with enzymes instead of chemicals in high concentrations in organic solvents.

    The hard parts of o chem are the visuospatial things and memorizing abstract info, like a list of the ten best leaving groups in nucleophilic substitution or the pKa ranges for twenty different functional groups.

    These are skills that schools don’t emphasize. I think the former is because of the sex gap in vs ability. I don’t think teachers want to teach material where 14-year-old boys outshine them,

    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.

    I know people mature at different rates, but IQ at fourteen correlates well with IQ at 22, does it not? Like, maybe people who want to be neurosurgeons but have 95 IQs could be shunted into nursing or the various para health professionals.

    For anyone here with a knack for chemistry, is it possible to teach organic chemistry without teaching a bunch of people how to make meth?

    Replies: @epebble, @PhysicistDave, @Anon, @The Wobbly Guy

    Rob asked epebble:

    For anyone here with a knack for chemistry, is it possible to teach organic chemistry without teaching a bunch of people how to make meth?

    I’ll defer to the chemists here, but I am pretty sure the answer is “No.”

    I myself synthesized sulfanilamide in a summer science program when I was in high school. I still have the test tube with the stuff somewhere: who knows when you’ll need an antibacterial drug?

    And I was pretty bad in chem lab. So, anyone who made it through OChem lab would, I suspect, find it pretty trivial to synthesize meth.

    (Yes, I know your question was rhetorical.)

    • Replies: @epebble
    @PhysicistDave

    trivial to synthesize meth

    Most Meth cooks and users are functionally illiterate. Organic chemistry is at least a couple of orders of magnitude more demanding.

  287. @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco
    One of the great benefits I have teaching middle school math at a school with 80% Hispanic and just 20% Black is dealing with parents

    Never has a parent complaining to me concerning their grades. My wife opened my eyes after teaching in a wealthy school district, which has high performing students and parents. The worst part was having the parents on her case each week when their child received less than an A



    Now she teaches at a school with a bilingual program...She teaches Biology and Chemistry in Spanish. 100% of her students speak Spanish, most arrived in America within the last 3 years. If she tries to teach them in English she risks losing her job, and the bilingual cert gives her a bigger salary than those teaching in English, like me. While the administration is 90% Black the district gets a $5,000 bonus for every student in the bilingual program. Plus the Hispanic students are docile and rarely cause problems so they can fit 30 students in each class, while the general Ed typically has just 22 students per class, but 4 are Black. The bilingual population is completely segregated in another building, so she never has to see or deal with any Black Students.

    The school district was 90% Black 20 years ago and it was difficult keeping teachers....but today it is a better environment than the white schools, since more than 80% of the students are Hispanic. Teaching my classes now is a dream since my typical class has just 2 Black Boys. Just 3 years ago the typical class had 4 Black boys per class....it is like teaching at a different school now, although all the administrators and principals are still Black. This year all the teachers are stunned, by reducing the Black population from 30% to the current 20% has made a world of difference and the number of students in the bilingual program keeps growing, which gets the school increased funding from the state. On the down side these Hispanic kids are all from Central America and are actually less intelligent than the Blacks. Usually my best student in each class is Black or Dominican. The worst students tend to be from Guatemala or Honduras but I have some 2 bright students from Salvador each year. From my experience I would put the average Black IQ higher than the Central America mestizos. Much of this could be due to them speaking Spanish at home and being very timid in school. They rarely speak unless you direct a question to them, and they hide behind heir masks to avoid being called on. 90% of my Hispanic students are still wearing cloth masks while just half the Blacks are still wearing masks. We ended the mask mandate in April 2022, yet most of the staff and students continue to submit.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    I taught for a little while at a college where about half my students were Latin American and about half were Caribbean. It was quite pleasant. Since I taught English language sections, I got the best of the Latin students. The ones who were dull or lazy always took the Spanish language sections.

  288. @That Would Be Telling
    @BosTex

    WTF? I know Northeastern to an extent by having lived in the Boston area nearby for a dozen years, attended a couple of Ring Cycles there, and from all the great computer science stuff done at it, students taught that, etc. It was no MIT EECS, but earned a good reputation in some subfields.

    As you imply It's a complete betrayal of its traditional mission to pack it with subcontinentals who no doubt are paying for their full load and providing a traitorous administration with lots of unrestricted money (most donors don't trust their schools and earmark their donations, and even that's corrupted, see the Princeton Wilson Institute debacle).

    To no doubt for example spiff up the college, it's modest or was as you note, solid but architecture that would not be out of place in a K-12 school system that watched what it spent and got good money for it. In the middle of the last century; I went to such a place in the late 1960s through the 1970s.

    Damn.

    Replies: @Anon, @BosTex, @BosTex, @Brutusale

    Northeastern had to up its profile to compete with their neighboring “betters”, as BC did in the 70s. They now cater to monied foreign students as well as local strivers. I think they’ve built on the sustainability of their coop program and improved their standing, as opposed to their neighbors, some of whom seem to be intentionally destroying their brands.

  289. @BosTex
    @Paleo Liberal

    Great summary, I appreciate it. I don’t keep track of what is going on there.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    Things are changing pretty quickly in Boston. I know people are surprised when I say that the city is headed down, but photos lie less than words.

    https://www.bostonherald.com/2022/10/05/juvenile-accused-of-shooting-student-at-dorchesters-jeremiah-burke-high-school-held-without-bail/

    No Bostonian of a certain age would have believed that a picture like this would ever happen. How’d you like to be that token white cop?

    • Replies: @BosTex
    @Brutusale

    Brutusale- love the handle. Italiano?

    Thanks for the comment.

    Not surprised by the shooting. Burke has been a dump since the 1970s.

    I was up in Boston July, short vacation with the family and was surprised at how dirty the city looked (Boston has been a pretty clean city) and how damn scruffy and overweight everyone looked.

    Picture is not surprising. Have a cousin that works for the Boston Housing Authority and she says the city hires mostly black cops, at this
    point.

    We are headed backwards. How can people be so stupid?

    Ok-gotta go make some money. Family demands it!

  290. @Shale boi
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Group theory is big in spectroscopy (bending moments affecting IR, etc.) You see it stressed a little more in inorganic than organic grad school, but still. And the inorganic is molecular, coordination compounds. Solid state inorganicers are more about space groups for crystallography, not point groups for IR, NMR.

    Here is a decent (and accessible) text:

    https://www.amazon.com/Chemical-Applications-Group-Theory-3rd/dp/0471510947

    P.s. the funny thing is I first saw this comment outside the Steve-o-sphere....but thought this was such a Steve thing he would cover it. Guess my Bayesian instincts are sound...

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain

    I was going to ask about point groups…but you answered it…thanks…

  291. @Brutusale
    @BosTex

    Things are changing pretty quickly in Boston. I know people are surprised when I say that the city is headed down, but photos lie less than words.

    https://www.bostonherald.com/2022/10/05/juvenile-accused-of-shooting-student-at-dorchesters-jeremiah-burke-high-school-held-without-bail/

    No Bostonian of a certain age would have believed that a picture like this would ever happen. How'd you like to be that token white cop?

    Replies: @BosTex

    Brutusale- love the handle. Italiano?

    Thanks for the comment.

    Not surprised by the shooting. Burke has been a dump since the 1970s.

    I was up in Boston July, short vacation with the family and was surprised at how dirty the city looked (Boston has been a pretty clean city) and how damn scruffy and overweight everyone looked.

    Picture is not surprising. Have a cousin that works for the Boston Housing Authority and she says the city hires mostly black cops, at this
    point.

    We are headed backwards. How can people be so stupid?

    Ok-gotta go make some money. Family demands it!

  292. @PhysicistDave
    @David Davenport

    David Davenport wrote to me:


    Long lectures are basically pre-Gutenberg. You listen to a long university lecture, some approaching 1:30 minutes in non-stop length, and frantically take notes because … why?
     
    Well... in my four undergrad years, I believe I took three pages of notes. Total.

    My theory was that they were talking, and therefore it was my job to listen and try to understand.

    I graduated with a 4.0 from Caltech, so I guess it worked.

    In fairness, there was one class where the professor decided not to use a textbook for the first quarter and instead scribbled dozens of blackboards worth of equations throughout the lecture: we had those sliding blackboards -- he'd fill them all up (nine total, I think)... and then erase and start over. Fortunately, there were two women in the class who could take notes as fast as the prof could scribble on the boards, and so we all used their notes.

    After the first quarter, he deigned to use a textbook, so we stopped going to class (the only college class that I generally cut).

    Aside from that one class, I really did rely on the textbook and on my memory of the lecture.

    My point here is that the lecture really should not just be regurgitating the textbook or dumping material on the students that should be in a textbook. The lecture should be an opportunity for the lecturer to help the students get a different perspective that helps them grasp the material in the textbook.

    To be sure, that requires more effort than a lot of profs are willing to exert.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous

    I am glad to hear that so many here agree with my “listen to the lecture and don’t spend all your time taking notes” approach. It always seemed to me as if most of my classmates were furiously scribbling in their notebooks.

    However, I think that what we have here is not a true cross-section (so I am hesitant to say that this is the best approach for everyone). The key to not taking notes is having a memory like a steel trap. Most people’s memories are more like a leaky sieve – in one ear and out the other so unless you capture it on paper it is gone with the wind. But like many things in life (which is not fair or “equitable” – the One who distributes gifts does not give them out evenly) , you go from strength to strength and weakness to weakness – having a strong memory gives you the luxury of allowing yourself to give your full undivided attention to listening and comprehending and memorizing instead of scribbling.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jack D


    I am glad to hear that so many here agree with my “listen to the lecture and don’t spend all your time taking notes” approach. It always seemed to me as if most of my classmates were furiously scribbling in their notebooks.
     
    What did you do to prepare for lectures?
    , @The Wobbly Guy
    @Jack D

    Teaching in a pre-university course, I also have to lecture. So this note taking thing seems kinda weird to me.

    Over here, at least in my school, we give them filled out lecture notes, so the students just have to pay attention, maybe add a bit more here and there, highlight important stuff, or write down insights that particularly struck them.

    After every key section, or maybe about 10 minutes, our lectures take a pause and we pose a relatively simple problem to the students that requires them to utilize what they just learned, that takes about 3-4 minutes. It breaks the tedium and keeps them interested, sorta. Actually applying the concepts also gives them confidence and imprints them more strongly in their minds.

    Even for pre-recorded lectures (which we're currently using, even if covid is over), we do this. And we also break lectures up into segments not more than 30 min for each segment (we call them 'bite-sized') so it's easier for the students to access, and also to review again if they run into problems when doing the questions.

    Here's what my department did:
    https://sites.google.com/moe.edu.sg/h2chem2022-2023/lectures/jc1-topics/9-introduction-to-organic-chemistry-isomerism

    Note that in our website, we even have a Q&A padlet.

    The days of lecturers just droning on and on are over, and have, I think, never been particularly effective. Maybe it was okay when dealing with the highly motivated cognitive elite, but pushing it downwards and the need to also educate the not-so-elite means we need to adapt our methods. Also, the young adults nowadays are definitely different with shorter attention spans due to the widespread use of social media and IT.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    , @PhysicistDave
    @Jack D

    Jack D wrote to me:


    I am glad to hear that so many here agree with my “listen to the lecture and don’t spend all your time taking notes” approach. It always seemed to me as if most of my classmates were furiously scribbling in their notebooks.

    However, I think that what we have here is not a true cross-section (so I am hesitant to say that this is the best approach for everyone). The key to not taking notes is having a memory like a steel trap.
     
    Well, I would not say that my memory is like a steel trap! My memory seems to be a fair amount about average, at least for things that interest me, but not spectacular.

    My best friend in high school had a truly photographic memory, but I got slight higher grades than he did, because I focused on understanding, not just memorizing. We were in honors courses, so rote memorization alone was not that much of a help. (Let me make clear that my friend was pretty good at understanding, also: I'm just pointing out that his photographic memory was of limited value.)

    As I said in another comment above, my approach may also have worked simply because of the nature of physics. A physicist with a horrific memory is going to be in trouble, of course, but "seeing" how it all fits together is much, much more important than storing huge numbers of facts.

    Other fields may differ.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    @Jack D

    The old joke about the girls as Barnard was that the professor would come in to class and say, "Good morning." Each girl would then write "It is a good morning" in her notebook, underline it, and use a yellow high lighter for emphasis.

  293. @Rob
    @Altai

    There’s a lot of room for verbal intelligence in medicine. I’d take a doctor with 140 verbal IQ and 100 mathematical* than the other way around.

    I realize that’s a huge gap, but I have a verbal/math and performance IQ gap that’s bigger than that. The psychiatrist who tested me said it was the biggest gap he’d seen absent a disability, like 100/60 is rare but does happen with brain damage.

    For a surgeon, visuospatial ability is really important, along with manual dexterity and and sometimes strength. Organic chemistry is really good for weeding out people without the first. I’ve heard orthopedic surgery residencies like athletes a lot.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Dvnjbbgc, @gabriel alberton

    For a surgeon, visuospatial ability is really important, along with manual dexterity and and sometimes strength. Organic chemistry is really good for weeding out people without the first.

    Mostly stereochemistry. To really weed out those without visuospatial ability, whatever they are studying for, there is crystallography.

  294. @Meretricious
    @prosa123

    NO--organic chem has nothing to do with clinical medicine. It's used strictly as a gatekeeping mechanism (and it's a great one)

    Replies: @Graveldips

    What do you call the dumbest graduate of medical school? Doctor. Gatekeeping is good, it keeps the marginal cases out. If you’e going to be rooting around in my innards, I want you to be overqualified.

    • Thanks: Hibernian
  295. @EddieSpaghetti
    If you cannot handle Organic Chemistry, how are you going to handle residency? In most cases, a student being "weeded out" early from a professional path that they are not suited for is hugely beneficial to that student.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Graveldips

    I know a tenured prof of computer science, and department chair, who took it upon himself to teach Comp Sci 101 to ensure that a thorough weeding took place immediately rather than waste the students’ and the school’s time. Between himself and a rotation of like-minded colleagues, very few got into the program who couldn’t finish it. He was very clear that this was a policy of kindness as well as expedience.

    • Replies: @BosTex
    @Graveldips

    This is truly a kind policy. It really is terrible if someone wastes time and resources on a course of study for which they are ill suited.

    Frankly to be weeded out this way is a gift: it gives a student a moment to step back and self reflect: what are they good at? What do they enjoy?

    It should probably be phrased to the student that way and then be followed with capability analysis and a heavy dose of career guidance.

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @Graveldips

    My younger daughter started a physics major at a well regarded state tech school. She was gently told at the end of her freshman year that perhaps physics was not for her. She was glad for the advice and went on to get a degree in math with a minor in physics.

    Encouraging and pumping up students' expectations beyond their capabilities is not fair, and is one of the tragedies of AA.

  296. I don’t know how people blow off going to class so cavalierly. Forty years later, I still have nightmares about missing weeks of class or forgetting where it was held.

    The one time I really needed notes, an art history class, someone stole my first 2 weeks worth (this was a school where we locked our dorm rooms only during home football/bball games), and the ones I borrowed were useless. Most of the paintings, artists, titles, and dates we had to recall weren’t in the textbooks.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Ralph L


    I don’t know how people blow off going to class so cavalierly. Forty years later, I still have nightmares about missing weeks of class or forgetting where it was held.
     
    A lot of people are able to learn the material from simply reading the textbooks or doing problem sets.
  297. @Anonymous
    @R.G. Camara


    The popular flash card programs currently available for computers/cellphones are, actually, kind of a new hack of memory, since they not only allow you to make flashcards you can take on the go, but they also space the repetition of them out at set intervals that correspond to most memory studies.
     
    Do you have a reference or two for these programs?

    Replies: @tr, @R.G. Camara

    Anki is the big one. And its free. Lots of YouTube videos on how to use it.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Anki_(software)

  298. @Graveldips
    @EddieSpaghetti

    I know a tenured prof of computer science, and department chair, who took it upon himself to teach Comp Sci 101 to ensure that a thorough weeding took place immediately rather than waste the students' and the school's time. Between himself and a rotation of like-minded colleagues, very few got into the program who couldn't finish it. He was very clear that this was a policy of kindness as well as expedience.

    Replies: @BosTex, @Jim Don Bob

    This is truly a kind policy. It really is terrible if someone wastes time and resources on a course of study for which they are ill suited.

    Frankly to be weeded out this way is a gift: it gives a student a moment to step back and self reflect: what are they good at? What do they enjoy?

    It should probably be phrased to the student that way and then be followed with capability analysis and a heavy dose of career guidance.

  299. @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    @Muggles

    "One is tempted to assume that today’s Gen Z students, addicted to screens, can’t comprehend in class information. Or anything much else."

    Nobody under 35 cares to comprehend or understand anything, they are not inquisitive. They don't want to learn anything remotely useful. They sit around, smoke pot and stare at the you-know-what. We are heading into a dark age. See: The Shallows.

    Replies: @Muggles

    I don’t often agree with you but I give you props for this.

    Sad to say, but you may be right.

    My only consolation is that older folks have been saying much the same about the younger generation since the ancient Greeks.

    Now we can debate which Dark Age was the worst. Of course calling something bad “dark” nowadays will get you cancelled. But not on Unz.

    One of the dozen points of light still visible.

  300. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:
    @scrivener3
    @Jack D

    Plus one. your advice should be given to every student entering college.

    I was the typical scribbler of notes in college but before going to law school I bought a book about how to succeed in law school. The guy said most students even when reading the cases before class try to write the case (take accurate notes). He said just read the case as fast as you can to get what is going on. then read the case again more carefully - don't write anything down. Then read the case again - on the third time you probably think entirely differently about the case than in the first reading. On the third reading you really understand the case.

    By the time I got to the Socratic discussion of the case, I knew more about it than 90% of the students.

    If you just trust yourself you will remember everything significant about the case if you once truly understand it. Now law school readings are relatively short, the old cases are remarkably compressed and short so reading the assignment three times was doable, but the concept applies everywhere. Really read, really listen, you will remember what you need or a few jots like two sentences will be enough to bring back the facts and the reasoning if you knew it.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    I was the typical scribbler of notes in college but before going to law school I bought a book about how to succeed in law school. The guy said most students even when reading the cases before class try to write the case (take accurate notes). He said just read the case as fast as you can to get what is going on.

    Can you really get what is going on if you are reading something for the first time and reading it fast?

    What was the name of the law school book?

  301. @AKAHorace
    @Brutusale

    The dummies books are well written and for those who are trying to learn. A lot of science textbooks are written to impress other profs.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    The dummies books are well written and for those who are trying to learn.

    Are the Organic Chemistry ones in particular well written and good for learning?

  302. @Steve Sailer
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Rice U. owns a 300 acre campus. When I was there, half of it was empty parking lot for the 70,000 seat football stadium that only filled up when U of Texas or Texas A&M came to play. Now, much of it has been converted to academic buildings, allowing Rice to boost enrollment.

    Replies: @Anon

    Now, much of it has been converted to academic buildings, allowing Rice to boost enrollment.

    One would think that boosting enrollment could drive up the acceptance rate and drive down the USNWR ranking.

  303. Anon[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob
    @epebble

    There’s an o chem textbook, Organic Chemistry with a Biological Emphasis by Timothy Soderberg. I think it’s creative commons, but don’t have a link handy. The book’s theme is that most people doing o chem ate a lot more interested in biochemistry than organic synthesis. So it teaches o chem in the context of dilute solutions in water with enzymes instead of chemicals in high concentrations in organic solvents.

    The hard parts of o chem are the visuospatial things and memorizing abstract info, like a list of the ten best leaving groups in nucleophilic substitution or the pKa ranges for twenty different functional groups.

    These are skills that schools don’t emphasize. I think the former is because of the sex gap in vs ability. I don’t think teachers want to teach material where 14-year-old boys outshine them,

    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.

    I know people mature at different rates, but IQ at fourteen correlates well with IQ at 22, does it not? Like, maybe people who want to be neurosurgeons but have 95 IQs could be shunted into nursing or the various para health professionals.

    For anyone here with a knack for chemistry, is it possible to teach organic chemistry without teaching a bunch of people how to make meth?

    Replies: @epebble, @PhysicistDave, @Anon, @The Wobbly Guy

    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.

    Would testing for spatial ability disadvantage Jews vis-a-vis Europeans though?

    How important is it to test specifically for spatial ability when selecting for future surgeons? Does spatial ability get tested for indirectly by other filters like Organic Chemistry?

    • Replies: @Rob
    @Anon

    It does get tested in organic chemistry. But by sophomore year of college, people are kind of set on their dreams. If you could move people to more realistic tracks earlier, they wouldn’t have to waste so much time failing o chem (like moi)

  304. @PhysicistDave
    @David Davenport

    David Davenport wrote to me:


    Long lectures are basically pre-Gutenberg. You listen to a long university lecture, some approaching 1:30 minutes in non-stop length, and frantically take notes because … why?
     
    Well... in my four undergrad years, I believe I took three pages of notes. Total.

    My theory was that they were talking, and therefore it was my job to listen and try to understand.

    I graduated with a 4.0 from Caltech, so I guess it worked.

    In fairness, there was one class where the professor decided not to use a textbook for the first quarter and instead scribbled dozens of blackboards worth of equations throughout the lecture: we had those sliding blackboards -- he'd fill them all up (nine total, I think)... and then erase and start over. Fortunately, there were two women in the class who could take notes as fast as the prof could scribble on the boards, and so we all used their notes.

    After the first quarter, he deigned to use a textbook, so we stopped going to class (the only college class that I generally cut).

    Aside from that one class, I really did rely on the textbook and on my memory of the lecture.

    My point here is that the lecture really should not just be regurgitating the textbook or dumping material on the students that should be in a textbook. The lecture should be an opportunity for the lecturer to help the students get a different perspective that helps them grasp the material in the textbook.

    To be sure, that requires more effort than a lot of profs are willing to exert.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous

    Aside from that one class, I really did rely on the textbook and on my memory of the lecture.

    What kind of preparation did you do before the lectures?

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @Anonymous

    Anonymous[157] asked me:


    What kind of preparation did you do before the lectures?
     
    I was good about reading the assigned text before lecture: I read it slightly more carefully than I would a novel -- i.e., not poring over every detail but also not just skimming.

    I think there is a good chance that physics is different from many other fields. The physician in my extended family has told me that my approach would have been catastrophic in medical school.

    The game in physics is to "see" how it all fits together so that you can derive anything yourself if need be: if you cannot derive it yourself, you do not really understand it. Rote memorization is of almost zero value.

    Feynman once told our class that he went into physics because his memory was not that good, but that in physics you could always reconstruct what you had forgotten from whatever you remembered. He was being overly modest, but he did have a point.

    Supposedly on Fenman's blackboard when he died was written: ""What I cannot create, I do not understand." This is sometimes misunderstood to mean that he had some sort of God complex, but that is missing the point. The point is that if a physicist cannot derive some phenomenon from first principles, he does not fully understand it.

    For example, a year or so ago, I figured out how to derive the "hole" effect in semiconductors from basic principles of quantum mechanics. I think I am now finally starting to understand it, even though I have known about the basic phenomenon for decades.

    On the other hand, I cannot go up to a blackboard and derive superconductivity (Cooper pairs and all that) from first principles, so I still do not think I really understand that, even though of course I know a fair amount about superconductivity.
  305. Anonymous[157] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    @PhysicistDave

    I am glad to hear that so many here agree with my "listen to the lecture and don't spend all your time taking notes" approach. It always seemed to me as if most of my classmates were furiously scribbling in their notebooks.

    However, I think that what we have here is not a true cross-section (so I am hesitant to say that this is the best approach for everyone). The key to not taking notes is having a memory like a steel trap. Most people's memories are more like a leaky sieve - in one ear and out the other so unless you capture it on paper it is gone with the wind. But like many things in life (which is not fair or "equitable" - the One who distributes gifts does not give them out evenly) , you go from strength to strength and weakness to weakness - having a strong memory gives you the luxury of allowing yourself to give your full undivided attention to listening and comprehending and memorizing instead of scribbling.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Wobbly Guy, @PhysicistDave, @Jim Don Bob

    I am glad to hear that so many here agree with my “listen to the lecture and don’t spend all your time taking notes” approach. It always seemed to me as if most of my classmates were furiously scribbling in their notebooks.

    What did you do to prepare for lectures?

  306. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ralph L
    I don't know how people blow off going to class so cavalierly. Forty years later, I still have nightmares about missing weeks of class or forgetting where it was held.

    The one time I really needed notes, an art history class, someone stole my first 2 weeks worth (this was a school where we locked our dorm rooms only during home football/bball games), and the ones I borrowed were useless. Most of the paintings, artists, titles, and dates we had to recall weren't in the textbooks.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    I don’t know how people blow off going to class so cavalierly. Forty years later, I still have nightmares about missing weeks of class or forgetting where it was held.

    A lot of people are able to learn the material from simply reading the textbooks or doing problem sets.

  307. @PhysicistDave
    @Rob

    Rob asked epebble:


    For anyone here with a knack for chemistry, is it possible to teach organic chemistry without teaching a bunch of people how to make meth?
     
    I'll defer to the chemists here, but I am pretty sure the answer is "No."

    I myself synthesized sulfanilamide in a summer science program when I was in high school. I still have the test tube with the stuff somewhere: who knows when you'll need an antibacterial drug?

    And I was pretty bad in chem lab. So, anyone who made it through OChem lab would, I suspect, find it pretty trivial to synthesize meth.

    (Yes, I know your question was rhetorical.)

    Replies: @epebble

    trivial to synthesize meth

    Most Meth cooks and users are functionally illiterate. Organic chemistry is at least a couple of orders of magnitude more demanding.

  308. @Rob
    @epebble

    There’s an o chem textbook, Organic Chemistry with a Biological Emphasis by Timothy Soderberg. I think it’s creative commons, but don’t have a link handy. The book’s theme is that most people doing o chem ate a lot more interested in biochemistry than organic synthesis. So it teaches o chem in the context of dilute solutions in water with enzymes instead of chemicals in high concentrations in organic solvents.

    The hard parts of o chem are the visuospatial things and memorizing abstract info, like a list of the ten best leaving groups in nucleophilic substitution or the pKa ranges for twenty different functional groups.

    These are skills that schools don’t emphasize. I think the former is because of the sex gap in vs ability. I don’t think teachers want to teach material where 14-year-old boys outshine them,

    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.

    I know people mature at different rates, but IQ at fourteen correlates well with IQ at 22, does it not? Like, maybe people who want to be neurosurgeons but have 95 IQs could be shunted into nursing or the various para health professionals.

    For anyone here with a knack for chemistry, is it possible to teach organic chemistry without teaching a bunch of people how to make meth?

    Replies: @epebble, @PhysicistDave, @Anon, @The Wobbly Guy

    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.

    We do this in Singapore, and in countries which do not use the pre-med system, but rather direct admission to medicine. Why waste time?

    Admissions for my country’s premier medical course. Maths and Chemistry are the must-have subjects for applicants, who must take the local modified version of the A Level examinations at the age of 18/19.
    https://medicine.nus.edu.sg/prospective-students/nus-medicine-pre-requisites/

    I’ve talked about the chemistry syllabus in my country before, and here’s the one for maths. It’s also quite difficult.
    https://www.seab.gov.sg/docs/default-source/national-examinations/syllabus/alevel/2022syllabus/9758_y22_sy.pdf

    The requirements for entering medicine sounds bland, but a near-perfect score is required to even get to the interview stage.

  309. @Jack D
    @PhysicistDave

    I am glad to hear that so many here agree with my "listen to the lecture and don't spend all your time taking notes" approach. It always seemed to me as if most of my classmates were furiously scribbling in their notebooks.

    However, I think that what we have here is not a true cross-section (so I am hesitant to say that this is the best approach for everyone). The key to not taking notes is having a memory like a steel trap. Most people's memories are more like a leaky sieve - in one ear and out the other so unless you capture it on paper it is gone with the wind. But like many things in life (which is not fair or "equitable" - the One who distributes gifts does not give them out evenly) , you go from strength to strength and weakness to weakness - having a strong memory gives you the luxury of allowing yourself to give your full undivided attention to listening and comprehending and memorizing instead of scribbling.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Wobbly Guy, @PhysicistDave, @Jim Don Bob

    Teaching in a pre-university course, I also have to lecture. So this note taking thing seems kinda weird to me.

    Over here, at least in my school, we give them filled out lecture notes, so the students just have to pay attention, maybe add a bit more here and there, highlight important stuff, or write down insights that particularly struck them.

    After every key section, or maybe about 10 minutes, our lectures take a pause and we pose a relatively simple problem to the students that requires them to utilize what they just learned, that takes about 3-4 minutes. It breaks the tedium and keeps them interested, sorta. Actually applying the concepts also gives them confidence and imprints them more strongly in their minds.

    Even for pre-recorded lectures (which we’re currently using, even if covid is over), we do this. And we also break lectures up into segments not more than 30 min for each segment (we call them ‘bite-sized’) so it’s easier for the students to access, and also to review again if they run into problems when doing the questions.

    Here’s what my department did:
    https://sites.google.com/moe.edu.sg/h2chem2022-2023/lectures/jc1-topics/9-introduction-to-organic-chemistry-isomerism

    Note that in our website, we even have a Q&A padlet.

    The days of lecturers just droning on and on are over, and have, I think, never been particularly effective. Maybe it was okay when dealing with the highly motivated cognitive elite, but pushing it downwards and the need to also educate the not-so-elite means we need to adapt our methods. Also, the young adults nowadays are definitely different with shorter attention spans due to the widespread use of social media and IT.

    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    @The Wobbly Guy

    The Wobbly Guy wrote to Jack D:


    After every key section, or maybe about 10 minutes, our lectures take a pause and we pose a relatively simple problem to the students that requires them to utilize what they just learned, that takes about 3-4 minutes. It breaks the tedium and keeps them interested, sorta.
     
    Of course, a big part of the problem of education is: how do you get the damn students to pay attention even if the lecturer is really good?

    Some friends have told me that taking notes is their way of making sure they stay engaged.

    Part of my approach was to play a game of trying to anticipate what the lecturer is leading up to: if I guess right, I feel rewarded, and if I guess wrong, I sit up and realize I better really listen carefully. Another trick is to think of possible examples, questions, or problems with what the lecturer is saying.

    Of course, some lecturers are so boring, it's just hopeless.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan, @R.G. Camara

  310. The funny thing is I remember just five or six years ago the NYT published an Op-Ed by a female medical school student. She was a non traditional student, married, early 40’s, with two kids and she wrote quite candidly about how difficult she thought organic chemistry was and how much homework was required in it and that it was used to weed out those without the smarts to be doctors. She even said it took her most of the semester to “get it” and finally started getting good grades, but once she did she saw it’s utility in medical training.

  311. @PiltdownMan
    @prosa123


    Knowing NYU, it’s my reasoned guess that a high percentage of the dismayed students are Asian.
     
    It's also possible that a high percentage of the dismayed students are not Asian, or, at least, not East Asian. East Asian kids are used to academic pressure and having to grind through hard work, the norm for students in the cultures in their countries of origin, as well as in their immigrant families.

    They might be South Asians, though, since many first generation Indian-American kids opt to try to get into medical school, and they tend to be more vocal about, and perhaps more savvy about, using the levers afforded today in the form of complaints about selective discrimination, fairness, and so on.

    I'm just speculating, of course.

    Replies: @Bramble, @Dan Kurt

    RE: ” East Asian kids are used to academic pressure and having to grind through hard work.” PiltdownMan

    I will try to make this short. My son, who has a MS and Ph.D. in Mech. Eng. and now is a staff engineer at one of the really big Defense Contractors as a Rocket Scientist dynamicist, had an experience during his time at a large research university working on his MS. There was a course given every two years in the Applied Math Department that was ranked at Six credit hours–it was considered to be the hardest math class at the university. All types of math and hard science Ph.D. students were encouraged to take the course during their time getting their Ph.D. The course was called Numerical Methods. Two Masters students signed up: my son (against the advice of his advisor) and a Math student. The rest, nearly 125 in number, were Ph.D. students. After drop day there were less than 75 students left in the course. There were two exams in the course, a mid term and final. After the course ended there were two A level grades received by my son and the other Math MS student. There were a handful of B level grades, a double handful of C level ones but more than half of the class received D level or Failed the course.

    About twenty five North Asians as a group protested their grades saying that they never during their education got less than A grades, or some such, that the professor was not a competent teacher, and other excuses. To make a long story short, the dean of the graduate division responsible for math and science asked my son and the other student with A level grade if the professor could use their mid term and final tests to show that there were students who could and did master the material. The professor was upheld by the university and no grades were changed for any of the complaining students who were almost, if not, all from Communist China.

    Dan Kurt

    • Thanks: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @Dan Kurt

    As I said, I speculated. Your anecdote about the complaining mainland Chinese renders it moot.


    There was a course given every two years in the Applied Math Department that was ranked at Six credit hours–it was considered to be the hardest math class at the university. All types of math and hard science Ph.D. students were encouraged to take the course during their time getting their Ph.D. The course was called Numerical Methods.
     
    Math students, especially those with a pure math background, tend to find Numerical Methods relatively easy, as a topic, and, in fact, are rarely required to take it, if they're on the Pure Math side. Either stripe of Math Major finds it easy, because, in fact, their grounding in analytical methods is so strong that it becomes easy to follow what the Numerical Method (and underlying Numerical Analysis in its kernel) is trying to do. In fact, without the burden of the rigor required in analytical solutions, there is a certain amount of relief.

    By contrast, students who come to Numerical Methods with a less strong background in the math it attempts to simulate or approximate, often tend to find themselves somewhat at sea, especially the weaker students who've gotten to that point in their education through sheer grind.

    The drop-off numbers you cite are unsurprising.

    PS: Good for your son.
  312. @Anonymous
    @PhysicistDave


    Aside from that one class, I really did rely on the textbook and on my memory of the lecture.
     
    What kind of preparation did you do before the lectures?

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    Anonymous[157] asked me:

    What kind of preparation did you do before the lectures?

    I was good about reading the assigned text before lecture: I read it slightly more carefully than I would a novel — i.e., not poring over every detail but also not just skimming.

    I think there is a good chance that physics is different from many other fields. The physician in my extended family has told me that my approach would have been catastrophic in medical school.

    The game in physics is to “see” how it all fits together so that you can derive anything yourself if need be: if you cannot derive it yourself, you do not really understand it. Rote memorization is of almost zero value.

    Feynman once told our class that he went into physics because his memory was not that good, but that in physics you could always reconstruct what you had forgotten from whatever you remembered. He was being overly modest, but he did have a point.

    Supposedly on Fenman’s blackboard when he died was written: “”What I cannot create, I do not understand.” This is sometimes misunderstood to mean that he had some sort of God complex, but that is missing the point. The point is that if a physicist cannot derive some phenomenon from first principles, he does not fully understand it.

    For example, a year or so ago, I figured out how to derive the “hole” effect in semiconductors from basic principles of quantum mechanics. I think I am now finally starting to understand it, even though I have known about the basic phenomenon for decades.

    On the other hand, I cannot go up to a blackboard and derive superconductivity (Cooper pairs and all that) from first principles, so I still do not think I really understand that, even though of course I know a fair amount about superconductivity.

  313. @Jack D
    @PhysicistDave

    I am glad to hear that so many here agree with my "listen to the lecture and don't spend all your time taking notes" approach. It always seemed to me as if most of my classmates were furiously scribbling in their notebooks.

    However, I think that what we have here is not a true cross-section (so I am hesitant to say that this is the best approach for everyone). The key to not taking notes is having a memory like a steel trap. Most people's memories are more like a leaky sieve - in one ear and out the other so unless you capture it on paper it is gone with the wind. But like many things in life (which is not fair or "equitable" - the One who distributes gifts does not give them out evenly) , you go from strength to strength and weakness to weakness - having a strong memory gives you the luxury of allowing yourself to give your full undivided attention to listening and comprehending and memorizing instead of scribbling.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Wobbly Guy, @PhysicistDave, @Jim Don Bob

    Jack D wrote to me:

    I am glad to hear that so many here agree with my “listen to the lecture and don’t spend all your time taking notes” approach. It always seemed to me as if most of my classmates were furiously scribbling in their notebooks.

    However, I think that what we have here is not a true cross-section (so I am hesitant to say that this is the best approach for everyone). The key to not taking notes is having a memory like a steel trap.

    Well, I would not say that my memory is like a steel trap! My memory seems to be a fair amount about average, at least for things that interest me, but not spectacular.

    My best friend in high school had a truly photographic memory, but I got slight higher grades than he did, because I focused on understanding, not just memorizing. We were in honors courses, so rote memorization alone was not that much of a help. (Let me make clear that my friend was pretty good at understanding, also: I’m just pointing out that his photographic memory was of limited value.)

    As I said in another comment above, my approach may also have worked simply because of the nature of physics. A physicist with a horrific memory is going to be in trouble, of course, but “seeing” how it all fits together is much, much more important than storing huge numbers of facts.

    Other fields may differ.

  314. @The Wobbly Guy
    @Jack D

    Teaching in a pre-university course, I also have to lecture. So this note taking thing seems kinda weird to me.

    Over here, at least in my school, we give them filled out lecture notes, so the students just have to pay attention, maybe add a bit more here and there, highlight important stuff, or write down insights that particularly struck them.

    After every key section, or maybe about 10 minutes, our lectures take a pause and we pose a relatively simple problem to the students that requires them to utilize what they just learned, that takes about 3-4 minutes. It breaks the tedium and keeps them interested, sorta. Actually applying the concepts also gives them confidence and imprints them more strongly in their minds.

    Even for pre-recorded lectures (which we're currently using, even if covid is over), we do this. And we also break lectures up into segments not more than 30 min for each segment (we call them 'bite-sized') so it's easier for the students to access, and also to review again if they run into problems when doing the questions.

    Here's what my department did:
    https://sites.google.com/moe.edu.sg/h2chem2022-2023/lectures/jc1-topics/9-introduction-to-organic-chemistry-isomerism

    Note that in our website, we even have a Q&A padlet.

    The days of lecturers just droning on and on are over, and have, I think, never been particularly effective. Maybe it was okay when dealing with the highly motivated cognitive elite, but pushing it downwards and the need to also educate the not-so-elite means we need to adapt our methods. Also, the young adults nowadays are definitely different with shorter attention spans due to the widespread use of social media and IT.

    Replies: @PhysicistDave

    The Wobbly Guy wrote to Jack D:

    After every key section, or maybe about 10 minutes, our lectures take a pause and we pose a relatively simple problem to the students that requires them to utilize what they just learned, that takes about 3-4 minutes. It breaks the tedium and keeps them interested, sorta.

    Of course, a big part of the problem of education is: how do you get the damn students to pay attention even if the lecturer is really good?

    Some friends have told me that taking notes is their way of making sure they stay engaged.

    Part of my approach was to play a game of trying to anticipate what the lecturer is leading up to: if I guess right, I feel rewarded, and if I guess wrong, I sit up and realize I better really listen carefully. Another trick is to think of possible examples, questions, or problems with what the lecturer is saying.

    Of course, some lecturers are so boring, it’s just hopeless.

    • Troll: R.G. Camara
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @PhysicistDave


    Some friends have told me that taking notes is their way of making sure they stay engaged.
     
    I think that's true of many of those who take notes all through the class. The act of jotting down what they're hearing helps them stay focused.

    A fortunate few (very few) have self-mastered the art of listening most of the time and following, and taking notes in simple outline form, which helps them both engage, while yanking themselves back, periodically, to what the lecturer is going on about.

    A hour long lecture, or even a 45 minute lecture, is a long period of time for an individual to sustain attention solely toward what the teacher is saying, even a good one, as you point out.

    Anyway, the students who do that (and classmates who did that, in my memory) also have an advantage in that their revision of material after the class is a much more efficient process.

    A lucky few, often gifted, don't even need to do that—to hearken back to the lecture by revising the material within days after the class, such as your friend with the photographic memory. The stuff gets imprinted permanently in their minds.
    , @R.G. Camara
    @PhysicistDave

    lol. Shut up, gammatard.

    How did Caesar pay his armies, dummy?

  315. @Dan Kurt
    @PiltdownMan

    RE: " East Asian kids are used to academic pressure and having to grind through hard work." PiltdownMan

    I will try to make this short. My son, who has a MS and Ph.D. in Mech. Eng. and now is a staff engineer at one of the really big Defense Contractors as a Rocket Scientist dynamicist, had an experience during his time at a large research university working on his MS. There was a course given every two years in the Applied Math Department that was ranked at Six credit hours--it was considered to be the hardest math class at the university. All types of math and hard science Ph.D. students were encouraged to take the course during their time getting their Ph.D. The course was called Numerical Methods. Two Masters students signed up: my son (against the advice of his advisor) and a Math student. The rest, nearly 125 in number, were Ph.D. students. After drop day there were less than 75 students left in the course. There were two exams in the course, a mid term and final. After the course ended there were two A level grades received by my son and the other Math MS student. There were a handful of B level grades, a double handful of C level ones but more than half of the class received D level or Failed the course.

    About twenty five North Asians as a group protested their grades saying that they never during their education got less than A grades, or some such, that the professor was not a competent teacher, and other excuses. To make a long story short, the dean of the graduate division responsible for math and science asked my son and the other student with A level grade if the professor could use their mid term and final tests to show that there were students who could and did master the material. The professor was upheld by the university and no grades were changed for any of the complaining students who were almost, if not, all from Communist China.

    Dan Kurt

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

    As I said, I speculated. Your anecdote about the complaining mainland Chinese renders it moot.

    There was a course given every two years in the Applied Math Department that was ranked at Six credit hours–it was considered to be the hardest math class at the university. All types of math and hard science Ph.D. students were encouraged to take the course during their time getting their Ph.D. The course was called Numerical Methods.

    Math students, especially those with a pure math background, tend to find Numerical Methods relatively easy, as a topic, and, in fact, are rarely required to take it, if they’re on the Pure Math side. Either stripe of Math Major finds it easy, because, in fact, their grounding in analytical methods is so strong that it becomes easy to follow what the Numerical Method (and underlying Numerical Analysis in its kernel) is trying to do. In fact, without the burden of the rigor required in analytical solutions, there is a certain amount of relief.

    By contrast, students who come to Numerical Methods with a less strong background in the math it attempts to simulate or approximate, often tend to find themselves somewhat at sea, especially the weaker students who’ve gotten to that point in their education through sheer grind.

    The drop-off numbers you cite are unsurprising.

    PS: Good for your son.

  316. @PhysicistDave
    @The Wobbly Guy

    The Wobbly Guy wrote to Jack D:


    After every key section, or maybe about 10 minutes, our lectures take a pause and we pose a relatively simple problem to the students that requires them to utilize what they just learned, that takes about 3-4 minutes. It breaks the tedium and keeps them interested, sorta.
     
    Of course, a big part of the problem of education is: how do you get the damn students to pay attention even if the lecturer is really good?

    Some friends have told me that taking notes is their way of making sure they stay engaged.

    Part of my approach was to play a game of trying to anticipate what the lecturer is leading up to: if I guess right, I feel rewarded, and if I guess wrong, I sit up and realize I better really listen carefully. Another trick is to think of possible examples, questions, or problems with what the lecturer is saying.

    Of course, some lecturers are so boring, it's just hopeless.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan, @R.G. Camara

    Some friends have told me that taking notes is their way of making sure they stay engaged.

    I think that’s true of many of those who take notes all through the class. The act of jotting down what they’re hearing helps them stay focused.

    A fortunate few (very few) have self-mastered the art of listening most of the time and following, and taking notes in simple outline form, which helps them both engage, while yanking themselves back, periodically, to what the lecturer is going on about.

    A hour long lecture, or even a 45 minute lecture, is a long period of time for an individual to sustain attention solely toward what the teacher is saying, even a good one, as you point out.

    Anyway, the students who do that (and classmates who did that, in my memory) also have an advantage in that their revision of material after the class is a much more efficient process.

    A lucky few, often gifted, don’t even need to do that—to hearken back to the lecture by revising the material within days after the class, such as your friend with the photographic memory. The stuff gets imprinted permanently in their minds.

  317. @Anon
    @Rob


    I wonder if we couldn’t weed out people from the MD track before they’re nineteen or twenty. Maybe testing for spatial ability like we (used to) test verbal and mathematical ability for college admissions. The rank order would not be popular with the zeitgeist, though.
     
    Would testing for spatial ability disadvantage Jews vis-a-vis Europeans though?

    How important is it to test specifically for spatial ability when selecting for future surgeons? Does spatial ability get tested for indirectly by other filters like Organic Chemistry?

    Replies: @Rob

    It does get tested in organic chemistry. But by sophomore year of college, people are kind of set on their dreams. If you could move people to more realistic tracks earlier, they wouldn’t have to waste so much time failing o chem (like moi)

  318. @Jack D
    @PhysicistDave

    I am glad to hear that so many here agree with my "listen to the lecture and don't spend all your time taking notes" approach. It always seemed to me as if most of my classmates were furiously scribbling in their notebooks.

    However, I think that what we have here is not a true cross-section (so I am hesitant to say that this is the best approach for everyone). The key to not taking notes is having a memory like a steel trap. Most people's memories are more like a leaky sieve - in one ear and out the other so unless you capture it on paper it is gone with the wind. But like many things in life (which is not fair or "equitable" - the One who distributes gifts does not give them out evenly) , you go from strength to strength and weakness to weakness - having a strong memory gives you the luxury of allowing yourself to give your full undivided attention to listening and comprehending and memorizing instead of scribbling.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Wobbly Guy, @PhysicistDave, @Jim Don Bob

    The old joke about the girls as Barnard was that the professor would come in to class and say, “Good morning.” Each girl would then write “It is a good morning” in her notebook, underline it, and use a yellow high lighter for emphasis.

  319. @Graveldips
    @EddieSpaghetti

    I know a tenured prof of computer science, and department chair, who took it upon himself to teach Comp Sci 101 to ensure that a thorough weeding took place immediately rather than waste the students' and the school's time. Between himself and a rotation of like-minded colleagues, very few got into the program who couldn't finish it. He was very clear that this was a policy of kindness as well as expedience.

    Replies: @BosTex, @Jim Don Bob

    My younger daughter started a physics major at a well regarded state tech school. She was gently told at the end of her freshman year that perhaps physics was not for her. She was glad for the advice and went on to get a degree in math with a minor in physics.

    Encouraging and pumping up students’ expectations beyond their capabilities is not fair, and is one of the tragedies of AA.

  320. Daughter with a Math degree took two semesters of Numerical Methods and said it wasn’t that hard if you were a Math or Physics major. OTOH, the EEs had a hard time with it, but the Math/Physics kids looked down on them.

    She also said that the exams were problems to be solved, not multiple choice, so cramming wouldn’t work. You had to know the material well enough to use it, not just regurgitate it.

  321. @Jack D
    @R.G. Camara

    No, what it really is is a highly g loaded subject, one that requires BOTH a lot of memorization AND a lot of ability to comprehend complex materials. Thus, people who are JUST grinds can't do it and people who are brilliant but lack Sitzfleisch can't do it either. It could just as well be ancient Greek or multivariable calculus. It has relatively little that has DIRECTLY to do with what doctors need to know (great course for chemical engineers though) but a lot that INDIRECTLY relates in that it taps the same skill sets that will be needed later on in med school.

    Replies: @Anon, @R.G. Camara

    Shut up, fed.

    Unless you and your fellow enemies of the people can tell us what happened in Vegas —how the greatest mass shooting in U.S. history occurred.

    How long did you groom him to do it?

  322. @PhysicistDave
    @The Wobbly Guy

    The Wobbly Guy wrote to Jack D:


    After every key section, or maybe about 10 minutes, our lectures take a pause and we pose a relatively simple problem to the students that requires them to utilize what they just learned, that takes about 3-4 minutes. It breaks the tedium and keeps them interested, sorta.
     
    Of course, a big part of the problem of education is: how do you get the damn students to pay attention even if the lecturer is really good?

    Some friends have told me that taking notes is their way of making sure they stay engaged.

    Part of my approach was to play a game of trying to anticipate what the lecturer is leading up to: if I guess right, I feel rewarded, and if I guess wrong, I sit up and realize I better really listen carefully. Another trick is to think of possible examples, questions, or problems with what the lecturer is saying.

    Of course, some lecturers are so boring, it's just hopeless.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan, @R.G. Camara

    lol. Shut up, gammatard.

    How did Caesar pay his armies, dummy?

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