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Sen. Ron Johnson: Even Better Than a Big, Beautiful Wall Is a Big, Ugly Israeli-Style Fence
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If you are a younger Democrat like, say, Senator Cory Booker, who just a month ago was happily looking forward to a well-funded future of big donations from Jews paranoid about Trump’s purported anti-Semitism, you can’t be pleased with Obama’s decision during his lame duck period to drop the mask covering up his (admittedly understandable) resentment of Israel.

If Obama had just sucked it up through January 20, Democrats could have continued feasting off big money Jewish paranoia about Trump. But now the future is starting to look like a love feast between Israel and the Trumpified GOP, which can’t be good for Democratic fundraising efforts.

From the Washington Examiner:

Israel’s border ‘wall’ the model for Trump, Senate

By PAUL BEDARD (@SECRETSBEDARD) • 1/4/17 9:49 AM

U.S. officials and lawmakers eager to help President-elect Trump make good on his campaign promise to “build a wall” on the Mexico border are looking to the hastily built fence Israel constructed in just two years to stop the flow of illegal immigrants across its southern border.

The “barrier” fence between Israel and Egypt was built from 2011 to 2013 after thousands of Africans surged in, similar to what is happening on the U.S.-Mexico border now.

The fence is made of hard-to-cut metal rods, topped with razor wire and enhanced with technology to identify break-ins.

“It’s a very effective fence,” said Sen. Ron Johnson [R-WI], chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee. Johnson, whose panel must approve Trump’s wall, just returned from Israel where he toured the border and studied the wall. He left impressed.

“They had, like we have, an uncontrolled flow coming into the southern border. And they said they had to stop it,” the Wisconsin Republican told Secrets.

“There were thousands of primarily Africans coming through the southern border. It’s now down to the teens. And they did it in two years, spending about $400 million on a 260-kilometer fence, that’s about 163 miles. That’s about $2.5 million per mile. A very effective fence. You can see through it. It’s basically built with rebar and razor wire,” he added.

“They have about a five-minute response time. Nobody can use a wire cutter. You can cut through the fence, but it’s going to take some time. You’d need some serious tools to cut through this fence. You can also see through it, which is important,” he said.

The relatively low cost and speed of construction is a big plus, he said. And the Israeli company that built it, Magel Security Systems, which has completed hundreds of projects in the United States and more worldwide, is ready to go.

Johnson, an advocate for more fencing, said the Border Patrol also wants a longer and better barrier. The U.S. has a partial wall, but much of it is outdated and solid, preventing border agents from seeing the other side.

The senator said a see-through fence is key. “You want to see what’s happening so that you can respond. The fence stops people from quickly entering, gives border patrol agents time to respond, and as a result it’s been incredibly successful,” he said.

 
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  1. I think the Overton Window just moved quite some distance.

    • Replies: @The Millennial Falcon
    It's gonna be a big beautiful wall with a great big Overton Window.
    , @Johann Ricke

    If you are a younger Democrat like, say, Senator Cory Booker, who just a month ago was happily looking forward to a well-funded future of big donations from Jews paranoid about Trump’s purported anti-Semitism, you can’t be pleased with Obama’s decision during his lame duck period to drop the mask covering up his (admittedly understandable) resentment of Israel.
     
    Why is Obama's resentment of Israel understandable? What have the Israelis ever done to him personally?
  2. Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour. Much of our wall must be pre-cast in the factory or the cost will be staggering.

    Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots.

    • Replies: @JerryC
    A fence like that is easily affordable even paying welders $100 an hour. Lining some union pockets might even help to make the thing politically feasible.
    , @epebble
    Hmm, seems like a feature and not bug; Helping Trump constituents will only help him politically. Even at $125 rate, it will be a microscopic fraction of the F-35 (or Zumwalt) boondoggle.
    , @Olorin
    So you're suggesting that for every illegal the Dems have enfranchised, we give the vote to a welding robot?
    , @Jim Don Bob
    It's gonna be built in the South which is not exactly a union stronghold.
    , @Bill
    Yes, it's important to keep track of who our real enemies are. White, unionized welders.
    , @Bill P

    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour.
     
    No, they don't.
    , @cucksworth
    Union iron workers make $260,000 per year with 40 hours per week? How stupid do you this we are?
    , @Daniel Chieh
    I should have been a welder.
    , @Karl
    > Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots

    I grant to YOU, the privilege of being the first to drive a laden truck, across a bridge which was welded together by a robot.
  3. The “barrier” fence between Israel and Egypt was built from 2011 to 2013 after thousands of Africans surged in…

    A wall to keep out Africans? Africans? How racist is that? Quick, somebody call the New York Times so that they can do a front-page report on the racist Israeli fence!

    • Replies: @GW
    Or instead just act as if border fences are a normal and acceptable thing for nations wishing to preserve their sovereignty and way of life, regardless of the hysterics of the NYT. It's not like they're big fans of Israel to begin with anyway.
    , @snorlax
    They have, on numerous occasions.
    , @BucephalusXYZ
    Spain also has fences to keep Africans out:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta_border_fence
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla_border_fence

    (On a different note, maybe Spain and Morocco, as African nations, should settle their differences and join forces to construct a combined campaign to join the African Union.)
    , @biz
    How detached is some of the readership here from actual events? The NY Times has run a number of editorials against Israel's fence and its policy of limiting African immigration generally.
    , @RomanceWritR
    Does anyone need to be reminded that Egyptians are Africans.
  4. That’s about $2.5 million per mile. A very effective fence….It’s basically built with rebar and razor wire,”

    This will never fly in America. Not enough opportunities for graft. We need around 700 more miles of fence, so that’s less than $2 billion. The F-35 program will cost $1.5 TRILLION. $2 billion is not enough to excite any politicians. We need a “high tech” fence that costs AT LEAST $1 billion per mile like a NY subway. It should be made of carbon fiber and unobtanium as showcase of American technological prowess. It should be invisible on radar. Maybe it should be invisible period.

    • LOL: Abe, Fredrik, IHTG
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    It should be invisible on radar. Maybe it should be invisible period.
     
    Don't we already have one of those in place?
    , @Neil Templeton
    Maybe we could station a mime every quarter mile or so, to pretend he was stopped by a fence.
    , @James N. Kennett

    This will never fly in America. Not enough opportunities for graft. We need around 700 more miles of fence, so that’s less than $2 billion. The F-35 program will cost $1.5 TRILLION. $2 billion is not enough to excite any politicians.
     
    This will be the first test of Trump's political and managerial skill. If he can build the fence for less than $10 billion, before the end of his first term, he will pass the test.

    I'm looking forward to the squirming discomfort of those who said it was impossible, impractical, hideously expensive, not "who we are", and so on. People all over the world will realise that it is entirely possible to halt unwelcome mass migration if we choose to do so.
  5. Needs to be a double fence, separated by about 100 feet full of sensors, with the border patrol patrolling between them, so that even if somebody breaches or gets over the first, they are sitting ducks while trying to breach the second.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    And every single pork barrel legislator would agree.
    , @newrouter
    "separated by about 100 feet full of sensors,"

    landmines work better
    , @MBlanc46
    Separated by about 100 feet full of mines.
    , @whorefinder
    I would prefer something as near-unbreachable as the multi-layered Walls of Constantinople, which lasted for more than a thousand years against numerous enemies until the Turks finally figured out how to breach them---and, in doing so, inadvertently launched the European Renaissance:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Walls_of_Constantinople

    Go big or go home, baby!
    , @RW
    A nice idea, but the federal government could not claim or buy all that land.
  6. The Saudi one looks good to me.
    http://ijr.com/2015/01/233628-saudi-arabia-anti-isis-wall/

    At the end of the day it comes down to the willingness to shoot the first few illegals every day for a month.

    • Agree: MBlanc46
    • Replies: @Smartie
    I heard that the Saudi fence is built by Airbus.
    , @James N. Kennett
    When it comes to keeping out unwanted migrants, you have to hand it to the mad tribal Middle Easterners, whether Israeli or Saudi. We could learn a thing or two from them.
  7. @crank
    Needs to be a double fence, separated by about 100 feet full of sensors, with the border patrol patrolling between them, so that even if somebody breaches or gets over the first, they are sitting ducks while trying to breach the second.

    And every single pork barrel legislator would agree.

    • Replies: @whorefinder

    And every single pork barrel legislator would agree.
     
    Trump's Wall (as it will be known) may become the best, most useful, most important single, large-scale infrastructure investment in American history. Of course, Eisenhower's Interstate System will give it a run for it's money.

    If the pork barrel overruns are kept within the range of "eh, so long as it works", it will be worth it. As I've said, whatever the cost of building the wall, the cost of not building it is a thousand times more.

  8. @Hodag
    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour. Much of our wall must be pre-cast in the factory or the cost will be staggering.

    Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots.

    A fence like that is easily affordable even paying welders $100 an hour. Lining some union pockets might even help to make the thing politically feasible.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    The union boys---real union boys, not the Potemkin ones like the SEIU---would be very useful beyond building the wall and generating enthusiasm for the project.

    They might be very useful at, ahem, assisting in "crowd control" from the inevitable (and currently now being planned by Soros & Co. ) oppositional guerrilla warfare and open assaults (which the media will call "peaceful protests") :

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Hard_Hat_Riot

  9. @Bill Jones
    The Saudi one looks good to me.
    http://ijr.com/2015/01/233628-saudi-arabia-anti-isis-wall/

    At the end of the day it comes down to the willingness to shoot the first few illegals every day for a month.

    I heard that the Saudi fence is built by Airbus.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    I thought it was built by a German company, maybe Rheinmetall.
  10. Johnson is a smart guy….not a great politician, but a smart guy. I think he’s the only senator with a manufacturing background. I’d feel good if he was involved with this on the Senate side.

    • Replies: @Noah172
    Rojo got reelected against a former 3-term Senator after trailing in every single poll leading up to the election, in a state which had not reelected a Republican Senator since 1986. Sounds like a savvy politician to me.
  11. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Obama’s decision during his lame duck period to drop the mask covering up his (admittedly understandable) resentment of Israel.

    What’s the basis for the claim that Obama “resents” Israel? From what I can gather, Obama’s attitude towards Israel is in line with that of the WASP establishment that dominated US foreign policy for much of the 20th century but does no longer, but also somewhat less anti-Israel than the WASP establishment was:

    http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/features/features-on-jewish-world/george-bush-james-baker-and-the-jews/2014/10/31/

    • Agree: Sean
    • Replies: @SFG
    IMHO he's just refused to kiss Bibi's butt. I'm no fan of Hamas but Israel gets away with way too much.

    My less paranoid conspiracy theory is that Trump, like Nixon before him, has figured that you can't get all the New York Jews on your side but it pays to get some. So he'll just support Bibi in his s**tlording and have the Breitbart guys helping him out--they got him elected, after all. I suspect a lot of moderately-conservative guys don't really care about Israel one way or the other but figure it's a way to keep a lot of rich, politics-obsessed guys happy with them. And saying nice things about Israel is probably just a cost of doing business in New York, like pretending to like kielbasa in Chicago or getting drunk on St. Patty's day in Boston.

    My more paranoid conspiracy theory is that Trump, reading his copy of Hitler's speeches, figured, OK. The first thing I'm going to do different is find another group to pick on!
  12. US border a bit more complex.

    a/ Israel has basically one international airport. US has a hundred?

    b/ Israel has 2 seacoasts neither too long. Even excluding AK, HI, PR, VI the US has lots of islands and very long coasts. Look at all the Cubans who made landfall over the decades using far flimsier crafts than in the Mediterranean.

    c/ Canadian border. People of course will never smuggle themselves into Canada and then into the US, will they?

    Wall? Great. Then what?

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    You're kvetching about what someone's cholesterol might be when there's a femoral bleed. The answer is you TQ the bleed and worry about the cholesterol down the road.

    Or in this case, you build the wall and not worry about concern trolls such as yourself beyond "we'll get to it".

    , @SFG
    Actually enforcing E-verify would be much more effective than a wall, to be honest. Start fining businesses who employ illegal workers to the degree it doesn't pay to do it--if they can't get paid, they won't come.

    But, of course, that would go against Free Enterprise (tm) and all the businessmen who write the congressmen's campaign checks. So, hey, wall.
    , @anon
    Well at least a wall is a start. A wall is a symbolic gesture that a nation is SERIOUS about protecting its borders, sovereignty and general way of life. When a nation has the political will and self-respect to get SERIOUS about defending its borders, things have a way of happening.
    , @anon
    A Canadian fence will be the best WPA project for northern states. It covers many blue states giving an opportunity to convert to red by pumping in funds to the economy. It will be doubly good if a rule is made to use only U.S. made steel.
    , @Boomstick
    Sequentially apply several anti-border jumping measures.

    1) To begin with just some Hesco barriers to stop vehicles would be a good start. It's a five foot tall cardboard and chain link box filled with dirt. It can easily be climbed over, but the point is to stop and channelize vehicles.

    2) Barbed wire and chain link fence with sensors and a roving patrol

    3) E-Verify, deportation from interior cities

    5) Forfeit any earnings if discovered and deported

    6) Land mines and alligator-filled moat

    We'll worry about the Canadian border if it becomes a problem. It likely won't; the issue is masses of Central Americans and Mexicans using low-tech methods to cross the border. If they're required to get to Canada first that's not such a low-tech solution and the number of illegals will drop drastically.
    , @Xenophon Hendrix
    A solution that's even 85-90% effective will make the problem something we can live with.
    , @Frau Katze
    Very few Canadians of European descent are so desperate they want to become illegals in the US. That would apply even to immigrants, with one exception: a crazy Muslim might try it, thinking he could do more damage in the US.

    One tried, I think it was before 9/11. But he just tried to cross at a regular border point, on an sea route from Vancouver Island to Washington. The border officials checked his trunk and found a large amount of a white powder. They thought it was cocaine and had him hauled in.

    As for people from south of the US border, looking for day labour, how are they going get to Canada? Fly? That's not cheap.
  13. @anony-mouse
    US border a bit more complex.

    a/ Israel has basically one international airport. US has a hundred?

    b/ Israel has 2 seacoasts neither too long. Even excluding AK, HI, PR, VI the US has lots of islands and very long coasts. Look at all the Cubans who made landfall over the decades using far flimsier crafts than in the Mediterranean.

    c/ Canadian border. People of course will never smuggle themselves into Canada and then into the US, will they?

    Wall? Great. Then what?

    You’re kvetching about what someone’s cholesterol might be when there’s a femoral bleed. The answer is you TQ the bleed and worry about the cholesterol down the road.

    Or in this case, you build the wall and not worry about concern trolls such as yourself beyond “we’ll get to it”.

  14. Smart move would be to give the multi-billion dollar deal to Israeli contractors. That way everyone’s happy even the ADL and Chuck Schumer. Art of the deal.

  15. @anony-mouse
    US border a bit more complex.

    a/ Israel has basically one international airport. US has a hundred?

    b/ Israel has 2 seacoasts neither too long. Even excluding AK, HI, PR, VI the US has lots of islands and very long coasts. Look at all the Cubans who made landfall over the decades using far flimsier crafts than in the Mediterranean.

    c/ Canadian border. People of course will never smuggle themselves into Canada and then into the US, will they?

    Wall? Great. Then what?

    Actually enforcing E-verify would be much more effective than a wall, to be honest. Start fining businesses who employ illegal workers to the degree it doesn’t pay to do it–if they can’t get paid, they won’t come.

    But, of course, that would go against Free Enterprise ™ and all the businessmen who write the congressmen’s campaign checks. So, hey, wall.

    • Agree: Peter Akuleyev
    • Replies: @Prof. Woland
    Do both.
    , @International Jew
    You're right, of course, about workplace enforcement. Nonetheless, it would be good to have the Trump wall/fence in place when the next Democratic president comes around. He'll gut interior enforcement but (I can hope) he won't actually tear down a good border fence.
    , @Noah172
    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    A wall is also basically permanent (very difficult to remove).

    Immigration enforcement should be about both/and, not either/or. Use an "all of the above" strategy.
    , @Bill
    Screw fining them. Put some in prison. Make sure to explain what they are in prison for to the local white prison gang.
    , @Anonymous
    Start jailing people who knowingly employ illegals - and see illegal immigration plummeting in no time. It won't take long - within a year the things will be normalized if enough people will be made an example of. Start with GOP senators and Silicon Valley liberals for the best outcomes.
  16. @Anonymous

    Obama’s decision during his lame duck period to drop the mask covering up his (admittedly understandable) resentment of Israel.
     
    What's the basis for the claim that Obama "resents" Israel? From what I can gather, Obama's attitude towards Israel is in line with that of the WASP establishment that dominated US foreign policy for much of the 20th century but does no longer, but also somewhat less anti-Israel than the WASP establishment was:

    http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/features/features-on-jewish-world/george-bush-james-baker-and-the-jews/2014/10/31/

    IMHO he’s just refused to kiss Bibi’s butt. I’m no fan of Hamas but Israel gets away with way too much.

    My less paranoid conspiracy theory is that Trump, like Nixon before him, has figured that you can’t get all the New York Jews on your side but it pays to get some. So he’ll just support Bibi in his s**tlording and have the Breitbart guys helping him out–they got him elected, after all. I suspect a lot of moderately-conservative guys don’t really care about Israel one way or the other but figure it’s a way to keep a lot of rich, politics-obsessed guys happy with them. And saying nice things about Israel is probably just a cost of doing business in New York, like pretending to like kielbasa in Chicago or getting drunk on St. Patty’s day in Boston.

    My more paranoid conspiracy theory is that Trump, reading his copy of Hitler’s speeches, figured, OK. The first thing I’m going to do different is find another group to pick on!

    • Replies: @Jimi Shmendrix
    No. Completely wrong.

    Obama just reversed decades of US policy (AFTER he and his party were repudiated by the voters), by allowing the UN to redefine "settlements" (including the holy sites of Jerusalem) as illegally occupied, a subtle but significant difference that paves the way for further international interference.

    A bitch move by a lame duck, no matter how you look at it.
    , @Jim Christian

    And saying nice things about Israel is probably just a cost of doing business in New York, like pretending to like kielbasa in Chicago or getting drunk on St. Patty’s day in Boston.
     
    Just so you know Sir, we get drunk EVERY day in Boston! Then of course is the legal pot, will they pretend to like that too?

    As for Israel, it seems fairly fashionable in Liberal Jewish circles from Boston down to DC to tear down Israel over the Palestinian issues, the Israeli wall, etc. I know very, very few families who are pro-whatever-they-do Israel fans and I move between Boston and DC a fair amount of the year. I keep my trap shut with them, but THEY are all very vocal. I spent plenty of time in Israel in the military, yet interestingly, very few Jews here have ever made the trip. They ought to. Especially the Jews here that bitch about the wall THERE. They missed the festivities of the 2002-2005 Intifada period. Something about your bus and/or wedding blowing up focuses attention on the problem.
  17. @crank
    Needs to be a double fence, separated by about 100 feet full of sensors, with the border patrol patrolling between them, so that even if somebody breaches or gets over the first, they are sitting ducks while trying to breach the second.

    “separated by about 100 feet full of sensors,”

    landmines work better

    • Agree: Jim Christian
    • Replies: @anon
    Landmines may be considered inhumane; what would be smart is to spread a layer of radioactive material in between barriers at just enough level that whoever walks over it will be rendered sterile. That way, even if the intruders cross over to work, they won't be able to drop anchor babies to saddle us with.

    A generalization of this plan would be to legalize the illegals if they agree to be sterilized.
    , @Fredrik
    I guess then you don't want the Border Patrol to patrol in there?
    , @Bill
    chupacabras are cheaper.
  18. @Dr. X

    The “barrier” fence between Israel and Egypt was built from 2011 to 2013 after thousands of Africans surged in...
     
    A wall to keep out Africans? Africans? How racist is that? Quick, somebody call the New York Times so that they can do a front-page report on the racist Israeli fence!

    Or instead just act as if border fences are a normal and acceptable thing for nations wishing to preserve their sovereignty and way of life, regardless of the hysterics of the NYT. It’s not like they’re big fans of Israel to begin with anyway.

  19. @Dr. X

    The “barrier” fence between Israel and Egypt was built from 2011 to 2013 after thousands of Africans surged in...
     
    A wall to keep out Africans? Africans? How racist is that? Quick, somebody call the New York Times so that they can do a front-page report on the racist Israeli fence!

    They have, on numerous occasions.

    • Replies: @Gabriel M
    Don't bother, this particular meme is so well embedded among alt-righters at the moment that I don't think anything can budge it. The only time these people ever actually look at at an article in the NYT is when Sailer posts one and he's sure as hell not going to post one like that. They probably imagine that the NYT carries a weekly oped by Bibi.

    Radix had a short article trying to calm the madness a few months ago ( I can't remember what it was called and google isn't helping). Basically, some clownish anti-white Jewish leftist said something anti-white and clownish and he got spammed with a bunch of "What about Israel's immigration policy huh?, huh?" stuff on Twitter. The article pointed out that since this particular clownish anti-White Leftist was a prominent critic of Israel, it just made alt-righters look like crazy angry people with no grip on reality. The article got hundreds of comments by ... crazy angry people with no grip on reality. Genies and bottles and all that.
  20. So walls work. Who would have guessed? Uh, maybe the Romans in England about 2,000 years ago?

  21. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @anony-mouse
    US border a bit more complex.

    a/ Israel has basically one international airport. US has a hundred?

    b/ Israel has 2 seacoasts neither too long. Even excluding AK, HI, PR, VI the US has lots of islands and very long coasts. Look at all the Cubans who made landfall over the decades using far flimsier crafts than in the Mediterranean.

    c/ Canadian border. People of course will never smuggle themselves into Canada and then into the US, will they?

    Wall? Great. Then what?

    Well at least a wall is a start. A wall is a symbolic gesture that a nation is SERIOUS about protecting its borders, sovereignty and general way of life. When a nation has the political will and self-respect to get SERIOUS about defending its borders, things have a way of happening.

  22. @Hodag
    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour. Much of our wall must be pre-cast in the factory or the cost will be staggering.

    Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots.

    Hmm, seems like a feature and not bug; Helping Trump constituents will only help him politically. Even at $125 rate, it will be a microscopic fraction of the F-35 (or Zumwalt) boondoggle.

  23. @anony-mouse
    US border a bit more complex.

    a/ Israel has basically one international airport. US has a hundred?

    b/ Israel has 2 seacoasts neither too long. Even excluding AK, HI, PR, VI the US has lots of islands and very long coasts. Look at all the Cubans who made landfall over the decades using far flimsier crafts than in the Mediterranean.

    c/ Canadian border. People of course will never smuggle themselves into Canada and then into the US, will they?

    Wall? Great. Then what?

    A Canadian fence will be the best WPA project for northern states. It covers many blue states giving an opportunity to convert to red by pumping in funds to the economy. It will be doubly good if a rule is made to use only U.S. made steel.

  24. @SFG
    Actually enforcing E-verify would be much more effective than a wall, to be honest. Start fining businesses who employ illegal workers to the degree it doesn't pay to do it--if they can't get paid, they won't come.

    But, of course, that would go against Free Enterprise (tm) and all the businessmen who write the congressmen's campaign checks. So, hey, wall.

    Do both.

  25. @crank
    Needs to be a double fence, separated by about 100 feet full of sensors, with the border patrol patrolling between them, so that even if somebody breaches or gets over the first, they are sitting ducks while trying to breach the second.

    Separated by about 100 feet full of mines.

  26. OT: Wow, this is impressive! Gives a whole new meaning to Orient Express.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/03/asia/china-train-london-trnd/

    • Replies: @CK
    London is the Fifteenth European city to be so serviced.
    This was Mackinder's great fear. That the heartland of the world would become integrated without the need for ocean trade routes. Without ocean trade routes to threaten and interdict
    peripheral nations would become less puissant. Great Britain and the USA are the peripheral empires and the One Belt One Road routes around potential interference much like the internet does.
    The original silk road brought the silks and porcelains, the spices and dyes, the science and literature from the east to the west and took the science and literature and the silver of the west back. The new Silk Road will do all that and a lot more.
    The Bush and Obama administrations have done their worst to impede the development; one can only hope that the Trump administration can find a way to get dealt into the deal.
  27. This fence seems like the prudent baseline barrier for the entire border, except in a few spots where the terrain is so mountainous/forbidding (eg about 50 miles worth of Big Bend Natl Park in TX) or where there is already a wall (parts of El Pas0).

    After this fence is built, either a wall best be built as a secondary fortification, or another fence set 100m back from the first.
    The key thing is to develop a kind of no man’s land or neutral zone where intruders can be intercepted if the initial barrier is breached.

    There is some r&d potential here. Building material companies could be incentivized with tax breaks to use the border zone as a test area for assessing durability of new concrete/rebar technologies or for new brick, stone wall construction techniques using native materials, sourced as close as possible to the border. Perhaps a civil engineering design contest could be initiated, with reviews on an annual basis for half mile long sections from various university teams.

  28. @JerryC
    A fence like that is easily affordable even paying welders $100 an hour. Lining some union pockets might even help to make the thing politically feasible.

    The union boys—real union boys, not the Potemkin ones like the SEIU—would be very useful beyond building the wall and generating enthusiasm for the project.

    They might be very useful at, ahem, assisting in “crowd control” from the inevitable (and currently now being planned by Soros & Co. ) oppositional guerrilla warfare and open assaults (which the media will call “peaceful protests”) :

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Hard_Hat_Riot

  29. Good rule of thumb for Trump’s immigration czar: do what what the Israelis do, not what their nutty cousins living in the west tell you to do.

  30. A number of observations:

    One: Obama like most foreign Muslim nationals (he was raised in Indonesia and the least American of possessions, Hawaii) resents Israel for being filled with smart White people who show up Muslims for the pathetic failures that they are. Israel is a modern tech center and industrial nation, being built from nothing. Even with all that oil money Saudi Arabia is just a bunch of goat molesters in tents. If that.

    Obama’s comments along with Michelle’s at Rashid Khalidi’s going away party in LA were filled with anti-Semitic remarks and hatred towards Jews. One need only know that the LAT has tape of that event and refuses to release it to guess at the contents. However, attendees have reported on the general tenor of the remarks which was that Black and Brown people are oppressed by Jew-rays or something.

    Two: The Modern Democratic Party is a place for Blacks, various other non-Whites, and White women if they are dutifully obedient to the non-White male masters of the Party. Dudes like Chuck Schumer are the past and on their way out. People like James Webb cannot exist for long and it is only a matter of time before he is expelled for the “crime”of being a straight White male not ashamed of his penis.

    Three: The Cory Booker types are being shoved aside by the Keith Ellison X’s and the Bernie-ites. Bernie himself ran under an agreement with Hillary to be her controlled opposition in exchange for his campaign debts being paid off. He is in his late seventies and is not the future of the Party; his lunatic and stupid followers certainly are. THEY worship Blacks as totems of sacredness that make them GoodWhites against us BadWhites.

    Four: While Israel is no longer that important to the US after the Shale Revolution, support for Bibi and Israel both ticks off Muslims and liberal Jews who hate Bibi and their relatives in Israel as much as ISIS. Enraging Sarah Silverman and Abu Hamza alike is always fun and should be done as much as possible.

    Five: The Era of Trump is the Era of Deals that were obvious but PC constrained before. The deal to copy Israel’s fence and support Israel in exchange for a home for US Jews politically and socially is obvious but was papered over by flapdoodle and other pious humbug by the media and Dems like Hillary. Keith Ellison X’s party, not so much. The same with ObamaCare. Trump can rebrand it TRUMPCARE! and offer it FREE!!!!!! paid for by deporting every illegal and their dependent they can find.

    Let me repeat myself — FREE HEALTHCARE FOR AMERICANS. For the low, LOW! price of deporting illegals and their dependents.

    Now let me ask you, how many Americans looking at their bank statements would think, “gee I don’t want another $700-1,900 a month in my account — Tshombe and Jose would be out of luck. Better I get in the neck than they go back to their home.”

    • Agree: Frau Katze
  31. Trump could pull off a masterstroke if he encouraged millions of ordinary Americans to pay for the wall the same way school children in WW2 pitched in to buy bombers. The easiest way would be to simply set up a box on our form 1040 that would allow every taxpayer to make a tax deductible donation in whatever amount they want. Set up a go-fund-me account and get the alt-right / right wing media talk radio to promote it and it would be snowing money. It would probably raise 10 times the amount needed and build a real national spirit with the average person. This would also take the legs out from under the Democrats because they would not be able to gripe about spending public funds. Trump could let Americans know that when Mexico finally pays, either directly which won’t happen or indirectly, that they money will go towards extending the fence along Canada.

  32. Well duh, Trump is smarter than Hitler. Although many German socialists were Jewish most German Jews were bourgeois or petty bourgeois and may have supported a nationalist party (Mussolini had a lot of Jewish support until he allied himself with Hitler). Germans before Hitler were not particularly antisemitic (Austrians were more) and the Nazi’s downplayed their antisemitism in their election campaigns. Given that a Jewish scientist (Fritz Haber) was the brains behind Germany’s survival in World War (he invented the Haber process which let Germany create explosives even after they were blockaded) perhaps Hitler should have thought that he should have those scientists on his side. Instead the Jewish scientists (and many of their non-Jewish peers) fled to allied countries where they invented the A-bomb and improved other war technology. If you want to invade the world you probably should not persecute the smartest people in your country.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Hitler is a classic case of a politician turning his tactics into his goal. Hitler's stated goal, according to Mein Kampf and other numerous speeches, was turning all of Eastern Europe out to the Urals into a German "Wild West" which would be colonized by Germans and would turn Germany into an agriculturally self-sufficient, resource rich World Power on par with the US. What part of that plan required killing Jews? Presumably, given their unfortunate history in the Tsarist Empire, many local Jews would have been rather happy to side with Germans against Slavs (and they often did during WWI). Nor were Jews likely to compete with Germans over who was going to grab the best agricultural land in Ukraine, most Jews were quite happy turning cities like Lwow, Kiev and Vilnius into civilized interesting places that would have provided excellent markets for German agricultural and industrial products. But during his rise to power Hitler, whether out of conviction or cynicism, found it quite convenient to make German Jews his whipping boys, essentially dooming his long term project.
    , @Frau Katze
    Face it: Hitler was a loser and a stupid one at that.

    German Jews were well educated and tended to think of themselves as proud Germans.

    Why people continue to obsess over Jews after the the unmitigated disaster Hitler brought upon the German gentiles is a mystery to me.

    You couldn't have designed someone worse.
  33. @anony-mouse
    US border a bit more complex.

    a/ Israel has basically one international airport. US has a hundred?

    b/ Israel has 2 seacoasts neither too long. Even excluding AK, HI, PR, VI the US has lots of islands and very long coasts. Look at all the Cubans who made landfall over the decades using far flimsier crafts than in the Mediterranean.

    c/ Canadian border. People of course will never smuggle themselves into Canada and then into the US, will they?

    Wall? Great. Then what?

    Sequentially apply several anti-border jumping measures.

    1) To begin with just some Hesco barriers to stop vehicles would be a good start. It’s a five foot tall cardboard and chain link box filled with dirt. It can easily be climbed over, but the point is to stop and channelize vehicles.

    2) Barbed wire and chain link fence with sensors and a roving patrol

    3) E-Verify, deportation from interior cities

    5) Forfeit any earnings if discovered and deported

    6) Land mines and alligator-filled moat

    We’ll worry about the Canadian border if it becomes a problem. It likely won’t; the issue is masses of Central Americans and Mexicans using low-tech methods to cross the border. If they’re required to get to Canada first that’s not such a low-tech solution and the number of illegals will drop drastically.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    Criminal penalties for employers who employ illegals should work well.
    , @Momus
    Alligators? Really?
    , @Bill Jones
    The Saudis, of all people, seem to have the right idea.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/11344116/Revealed-Saudi-Arabias-Great-Wall-to-keep-out-Isil.html

    I imagine they'll just leave the bodies to rot.

    I would.
  34. @Jack D
    That’s about $2.5 million per mile. A very effective fence....It’s basically built with rebar and razor wire,”

    This will never fly in America. Not enough opportunities for graft. We need around 700 more miles of fence, so that's less than $2 billion. The F-35 program will cost $1.5 TRILLION. $2 billion is not enough to excite any politicians. We need a "high tech" fence that costs AT LEAST $1 billion per mile like a NY subway. It should be made of carbon fiber and unobtanium as showcase of American technological prowess. It should be invisible on radar. Maybe it should be invisible period.

    It should be invisible on radar. Maybe it should be invisible period.

    Don’t we already have one of those in place?

  35. That’s not a fence. This is a fence. India’s fence with Pakistan can be seen from outer space.

    https://scroll.in/article/689164/the-berlin-wall-may-have-fallen-but-indias-border-fences-are-getting-more-intimidating

    About 60 countries have fenced in their borders since 1990. I’ll post the link if I find it.

  36. @Boomstick
    Sequentially apply several anti-border jumping measures.

    1) To begin with just some Hesco barriers to stop vehicles would be a good start. It's a five foot tall cardboard and chain link box filled with dirt. It can easily be climbed over, but the point is to stop and channelize vehicles.

    2) Barbed wire and chain link fence with sensors and a roving patrol

    3) E-Verify, deportation from interior cities

    5) Forfeit any earnings if discovered and deported

    6) Land mines and alligator-filled moat

    We'll worry about the Canadian border if it becomes a problem. It likely won't; the issue is masses of Central Americans and Mexicans using low-tech methods to cross the border. If they're required to get to Canada first that's not such a low-tech solution and the number of illegals will drop drastically.

    Criminal penalties for employers who employ illegals should work well.

  37. @crank
    Needs to be a double fence, separated by about 100 feet full of sensors, with the border patrol patrolling between them, so that even if somebody breaches or gets over the first, they are sitting ducks while trying to breach the second.

    I would prefer something as near-unbreachable as the multi-layered Walls of Constantinople, which lasted for more than a thousand years against numerous enemies until the Turks finally figured out how to breach them—and, in doing so, inadvertently launched the European Renaissance:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Walls_of_Constantinople

    Go big or go home, baby!

    • Replies: @Bill
    The Turks aren't that hot on figuring things out. It was a Hungarian engineer named Orban.
  38. @Daniel Chieh
    And every single pork barrel legislator would agree.

    And every single pork barrel legislator would agree.

    Trump’s Wall (as it will be known) may become the best, most useful, most important single, large-scale infrastructure investment in American history. Of course, Eisenhower’s Interstate System will give it a run for it’s money.

    If the pork barrel overruns are kept within the range of “eh, so long as it works”, it will be worth it. As I’ve said, whatever the cost of building the wall, the cost of not building it is a thousand times more.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I think the wall is a good to great idea. I object to random additions like "100 feet of sensors" which would probably just bloat up the project and remind me terribly of the F-35 project. I personally feel that going after enforcement of employers is just as important, if not more so, than a physical barrier.
  39. @SFG
    Actually enforcing E-verify would be much more effective than a wall, to be honest. Start fining businesses who employ illegal workers to the degree it doesn't pay to do it--if they can't get paid, they won't come.

    But, of course, that would go against Free Enterprise (tm) and all the businessmen who write the congressmen's campaign checks. So, hey, wall.

    You’re right, of course, about workplace enforcement. Nonetheless, it would be good to have the Trump wall/fence in place when the next Democratic president comes around. He’ll gut interior enforcement but (I can hope) he won’t actually tear down a good border fence.

    • Replies: @Henry Bowman
    I can promise you no one would tear it down, any company that did that would be blacklisted at best, at worse they machines would be firebombed at night by vets..
  40. @Polynikes
    Johnson is a smart guy....not a great politician, but a smart guy. I think he's the only senator with a manufacturing background. I'd feel good if he was involved with this on the Senate side.

    Rojo got reelected against a former 3-term Senator after trailing in every single poll leading up to the election, in a state which had not reelected a Republican Senator since 1986. Sounds like a savvy politician to me.

    • Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Rojo largely won on Trump's coattails. He was careful to be mildly pro-Trump, but not too pro-Trump so he grabbed a few of the 3rd party voters put off by Trump's declasse persona.
    Russ Feingold was a simple pro-Hillary cipher this cycle, and he tied his fate very closely to her policy wise.
  41. @SFG
    Actually enforcing E-verify would be much more effective than a wall, to be honest. Start fining businesses who employ illegal workers to the degree it doesn't pay to do it--if they can't get paid, they won't come.

    But, of course, that would go against Free Enterprise (tm) and all the businessmen who write the congressmen's campaign checks. So, hey, wall.

    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    A wall is also basically permanent (very difficult to remove).

    Immigration enforcement should be about both/and, not either/or. Use an “all of the above” strategy.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    Those are precisely the issues the wall does nothing to stop. The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work. The wall won't stop drugs - Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes. Weapons go from the US south for the most part, they are already easy to obtain in the US.

    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat. If you actually care about stopping immigration, rather than just about annoying liberals, than focus on penalizing workers who hire illegals. Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers' licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment, or do most of the things one needs to do to live long term in a foreign country. Those fixes are not glamorous, and are going to result in countless sob-stories about poor immigrants being mistreated, but that is the serious way to address the problem.

    Given Trump's history of show over substance, I am a little worried the wall is going to be more of the same. A grand symbol to placate voters while little actually changes on the ground.
  42. “Big, Ugly Israeli-style Fence”

    coastal proclivities impinging on practical solutions. you go grrl!!11!!

    the landmines are important too

  43. @anony-mouse
    US border a bit more complex.

    a/ Israel has basically one international airport. US has a hundred?

    b/ Israel has 2 seacoasts neither too long. Even excluding AK, HI, PR, VI the US has lots of islands and very long coasts. Look at all the Cubans who made landfall over the decades using far flimsier crafts than in the Mediterranean.

    c/ Canadian border. People of course will never smuggle themselves into Canada and then into the US, will they?

    Wall? Great. Then what?

    A solution that’s even 85-90% effective will make the problem something we can live with.

  44. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @newrouter
    "separated by about 100 feet full of sensors,"

    landmines work better

    Landmines may be considered inhumane; what would be smart is to spread a layer of radioactive material in between barriers at just enough level that whoever walks over it will be rendered sterile. That way, even if the intruders cross over to work, they won’t be able to drop anchor babies to saddle us with.

    A generalization of this plan would be to legalize the illegals if they agree to be sterilized.

  45. @Noah172
    Rojo got reelected against a former 3-term Senator after trailing in every single poll leading up to the election, in a state which had not reelected a Republican Senator since 1986. Sounds like a savvy politician to me.

    Rojo largely won on Trump’s coattails. He was careful to be mildly pro-Trump, but not too pro-Trump so he grabbed a few of the 3rd party voters put off by Trump’s declasse persona.
    Russ Feingold was a simple pro-Hillary cipher this cycle, and he tied his fate very closely to her policy wise.

  46. @snorlax
    They have, on numerous occasions.

    Don’t bother, this particular meme is so well embedded among alt-righters at the moment that I don’t think anything can budge it. The only time these people ever actually look at at an article in the NYT is when Sailer posts one and he’s sure as hell not going to post one like that. They probably imagine that the NYT carries a weekly oped by Bibi.

    Radix had a short article trying to calm the madness a few months ago ( I can’t remember what it was called and google isn’t helping). Basically, some clownish anti-white Jewish leftist said something anti-white and clownish and he got spammed with a bunch of “What about Israel’s immigration policy huh?, huh?” stuff on Twitter. The article pointed out that since this particular clownish anti-White Leftist was a prominent critic of Israel, it just made alt-righters look like crazy angry people with no grip on reality. The article got hundreds of comments by … crazy angry people with no grip on reality. Genies and bottles and all that.

  47. Language nitpicking department:

    1. There’s no such thing as ‘razor wire’. There’s barbed wire, and there’s razor ribbon, which is not wire; nor is it made of wire. I realize that this is a rearguard action on my part, BTW.

    2. The possessive form of its does not take an apostrophe.

    Please stay seated; I’ll show myself out.

  48. @Dr. X

    The “barrier” fence between Israel and Egypt was built from 2011 to 2013 after thousands of Africans surged in...
     
    A wall to keep out Africans? Africans? How racist is that? Quick, somebody call the New York Times so that they can do a front-page report on the racist Israeli fence!

    Spain also has fences to keep Africans out:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta_border_fence
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla_border_fence

    (On a different note, maybe Spain and Morocco, as African nations, should settle their differences and join forces to construct a combined campaign to join the African Union.)

  49. @International Jew
    You're right, of course, about workplace enforcement. Nonetheless, it would be good to have the Trump wall/fence in place when the next Democratic president comes around. He'll gut interior enforcement but (I can hope) he won't actually tear down a good border fence.

    I can promise you no one would tear it down, any company that did that would be blacklisted at best, at worse they machines would be firebombed at night by vets..

  50. @Hodag
    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour. Much of our wall must be pre-cast in the factory or the cost will be staggering.

    Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots.

    So you’re suggesting that for every illegal the Dems have enfranchised, we give the vote to a welding robot?

  51. @newrouter
    "separated by about 100 feet full of sensors,"

    landmines work better

    I guess then you don’t want the Border Patrol to patrol in there?

    • Replies: @newrouter
    A "no man's land" is an effective border. See S/N Korea.
  52. To build the walls around prisons costs about $1000 per linear foot.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    $5 million per mile?
  53. Drones and cameras make the see-through feature of a fence less necessary. But while I love the idea of a Hadrian-style battlemented wall with a patrolled road on top, an Israeli-style fence, preferably double, seems most efficient. Cram it with sensors, patrol as necessary (vehicle, foot, helicopter – whatever’s needed to get defenders to a breach in good time.

  54. @map
    To build the walls around prisons costs about $1000 per linear foot.

    $5 million per mile?

    • Replies: @TheHardRight
    $1,000 per linear foot = $5 million per mile = $9.7 billion for the entire 1933 mile border. I'm pretty sure the defense budget can spare that.
    , @map
    I was watching a prison documentary a few years ago. The cost of building a prison wall, you know, the reinforced concrete and barbed wire, was $1,000 per linear foot.

    So we're talking about a very high quality wall.
  55. @crank
    Needs to be a double fence, separated by about 100 feet full of sensors, with the border patrol patrolling between them, so that even if somebody breaches or gets over the first, they are sitting ducks while trying to breach the second.

    A nice idea, but the federal government could not claim or buy all that land.

    • Disagree: CK
    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    Roosevelt Easement says otherwise.
  56. @Steve Sailer
    $5 million per mile?

    $1,000 per linear foot = $5 million per mile = $9.7 billion for the entire 1933 mile border. I’m pretty sure the defense budget can spare that.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    Big Ag/Pharma should have to pay for this.
  57. How about establishing communities of lesbians along the border?

  58. @SFG
    IMHO he's just refused to kiss Bibi's butt. I'm no fan of Hamas but Israel gets away with way too much.

    My less paranoid conspiracy theory is that Trump, like Nixon before him, has figured that you can't get all the New York Jews on your side but it pays to get some. So he'll just support Bibi in his s**tlording and have the Breitbart guys helping him out--they got him elected, after all. I suspect a lot of moderately-conservative guys don't really care about Israel one way or the other but figure it's a way to keep a lot of rich, politics-obsessed guys happy with them. And saying nice things about Israel is probably just a cost of doing business in New York, like pretending to like kielbasa in Chicago or getting drunk on St. Patty's day in Boston.

    My more paranoid conspiracy theory is that Trump, reading his copy of Hitler's speeches, figured, OK. The first thing I'm going to do different is find another group to pick on!

    No. Completely wrong.

    Obama just reversed decades of US policy (AFTER he and his party were repudiated by the voters), by allowing the UN to redefine “settlements” (including the holy sites of Jerusalem) as illegally occupied, a subtle but significant difference that paves the way for further international interference.

    A bitch move by a lame duck, no matter how you look at it.

    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
    It was one of the very few things Obama has gotten right in the past 8 years.
    , @Anonymous
    There have been plenty of UNSC resolutions that have gone against Israel's occupation, under previous Presidents. This happens to be the first one that Obama let through.
  59. @Boomstick
    Sequentially apply several anti-border jumping measures.

    1) To begin with just some Hesco barriers to stop vehicles would be a good start. It's a five foot tall cardboard and chain link box filled with dirt. It can easily be climbed over, but the point is to stop and channelize vehicles.

    2) Barbed wire and chain link fence with sensors and a roving patrol

    3) E-Verify, deportation from interior cities

    5) Forfeit any earnings if discovered and deported

    6) Land mines and alligator-filled moat

    We'll worry about the Canadian border if it becomes a problem. It likely won't; the issue is masses of Central Americans and Mexicans using low-tech methods to cross the border. If they're required to get to Canada first that's not such a low-tech solution and the number of illegals will drop drastically.

    Alligators? Really?

    • Replies: @snorlax
    Crocodiles or sharks with frickin' laser beams would also be acceptable.
    , @bored identity
    I don't see any problem with alligators; as long as they are properly e-verified....

    Nobody's complaining about TSA hiring primates from Somalia.
  60. 1. paint a big beautiful black line along the border
    2. program a predator drone to vaporize anything larger than X which crosses that line
    3. ???

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
    Already been done.


    Smart tower construction begins on Turkey's Syrian border
    ...
    The Turkish security authority has started constructing shooting gun towers that can warn and fire automatically
    ...
    An automated speaker from the tower will warn the element or person in three languages to leave the area immediately.

    An automated machine gun will start firing at the element if it does not comply.

     

  61. @Larry, San Francisco
    Well duh, Trump is smarter than Hitler. Although many German socialists were Jewish most German Jews were bourgeois or petty bourgeois and may have supported a nationalist party (Mussolini had a lot of Jewish support until he allied himself with Hitler). Germans before Hitler were not particularly antisemitic (Austrians were more) and the Nazi's downplayed their antisemitism in their election campaigns. Given that a Jewish scientist (Fritz Haber) was the brains behind Germany's survival in World War (he invented the Haber process which let Germany create explosives even after they were blockaded) perhaps Hitler should have thought that he should have those scientists on his side. Instead the Jewish scientists (and many of their non-Jewish peers) fled to allied countries where they invented the A-bomb and improved other war technology. If you want to invade the world you probably should not persecute the smartest people in your country.

    Hitler is a classic case of a politician turning his tactics into his goal. Hitler’s stated goal, according to Mein Kampf and other numerous speeches, was turning all of Eastern Europe out to the Urals into a German “Wild West” which would be colonized by Germans and would turn Germany into an agriculturally self-sufficient, resource rich World Power on par with the US. What part of that plan required killing Jews? Presumably, given their unfortunate history in the Tsarist Empire, many local Jews would have been rather happy to side with Germans against Slavs (and they often did during WWI). Nor were Jews likely to compete with Germans over who was going to grab the best agricultural land in Ukraine, most Jews were quite happy turning cities like Lwow, Kiev and Vilnius into civilized interesting places that would have provided excellent markets for German agricultural and industrial products. But during his rise to power Hitler, whether out of conviction or cynicism, found it quite convenient to make German Jews his whipping boys, essentially dooming his long term project.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    This is true but it's only half the story. The key to the puzzle is Hitler's relations with the West.

    Hitler blamed the Jews for his wars with the Western powers - France, Britain and above all the United States. He believed that without Jewish influence over these governments he would have had a 'free hand' in Eastern Europe.

    In other words, the Jews of Europe were hostages to the foreign policy of the Western powers, and Hitler's persecution of them progressively escalated in inverse proportion to his relations with those powers. (The killing reached its peak shortly after U.S. entry into the war.)

    Lots of Jews were going to die no matter what, but if the Western powers had stayed out of the war it's likely the the casualties would have been numbered in the thousands rather than millions.
  62. @Noah172
    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    A wall is also basically permanent (very difficult to remove).

    Immigration enforcement should be about both/and, not either/or. Use an "all of the above" strategy.

    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    Those are precisely the issues the wall does nothing to stop. The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work. The wall won’t stop drugs – Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes. Weapons go from the US south for the most part, they are already easy to obtain in the US.

    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat. If you actually care about stopping immigration, rather than just about annoying liberals, than focus on penalizing workers who hire illegals. Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers’ licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment, or do most of the things one needs to do to live long term in a foreign country. Those fixes are not glamorous, and are going to result in countless sob-stories about poor immigrants being mistreated, but that is the serious way to address the problem.

    Given Trump’s history of show over substance, I am a little worried the wall is going to be more of the same. A grand symbol to placate voters while little actually changes on the ground.

    • Replies: @Noah172
    If you read my comment, you would notice that I don't disagree with any of the interior enforcement measures you mention ("all of the above").

    Again, it's not wall or "unglamorous" measures; it's both.

    Interior enforcement is part of Trump's immigration platform in any case. He also has Sessions, S. Miller, and Kobach(?) on the team. Kelly at HomeSec also looks pretty good.
    , @Jack Hanson
    You are doom masturbating. "Muh tunnels and officials" are not responsible for the amount of drugs coming over. Dopers walking 50lb bundles over is where most of it is coming from.
    , @bomag

    The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work.
     
    Interesting phrasing. I've seen many show up; try to find work; not find it; go on welfare.

    Let us stop with the pity stories regarding immigrants.
    , @Lucas McCrudy
    The wall won’t stop drugs – Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes.

    What officials? Corrupt Mexican officials or the US officials? If it's the latter then Trump needs to crack down on them ASAP. We're not a Latin America banana republic; corruption shouldn't be given a wink, nod by an Anglo gov't that claims it respects the rule-of-law. And airplanes? Where would they land- LAX? Dallas-Fort Worth? That's where drug sniffing beagles can be deployed, among other things. The wall will help keep out the drugs Big League, Trust Me.


    Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers’ licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment

    If any state tried to ban illegals from buying cars or renting apartments the ACLU would scream bloody murder and start filing law suits left and right claiming "discrimination" (see Hazelton PA). I agree a measure like this should be taken at the fed. level, but I don't even think Trump has the cajones to take on such a fight.

    As for attending public schools, surely you've hear of Plyler v. Doe, the 1982 Supreme Court case where a 5-4 majority decreed that illegals have an unalienable right to free public education? "This is settled law!" liberals will howl. Remember CA's Prop 187 which passed w/ 59% of the vote but open borders leftists staged a mini coup d'état by getting one (1) Jimmy Carter appointed judge to annul the democratic will of the voters thus deciding the fate of the US's most populous state?

    , @CK
    The wall is to keep out illegal immigrants.
    Drug gang control is not its purpose.
    Your suggestions would be superb at helping the already resident illegals to decide to return home.
    Your last paragraph starts with a given that isn't but your concern trolling is noted.
    , @Wilkey
    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat.

    Who the hell are you arguing with? No one here thinks a wall is the only thing we need to secure our borders. Every single commenter understands the need for further interior enforcement, including stiff penalties for employers who hire illegals.

    A wall is essential, though, for several reasons. One is that it keeps out those, like drug smugglers, who come for reasons besides work. Yes, some of them have tunnels. But many don't, and it's easier to focus on locating and closing down the tunnels when the frontier is more secure. A wall is like a dishwasher, clothes washer, or vacuum cleaner. Those appliances don't end housework, they just make it a lot easier and more efficient.

    Second, current asylum policy allows people on out territory to request asylum. Well, they can't request asylum if they can't step onto our territory.

    Third, a wall is a physical manifestation of a desire to secure our border. Once it's there, every beautiful mile of it, let the Left dare to proclaim that securing our border was never part of "what our country was." Once that wall is in place it's going to be awfully hard to find the political will to tear the thing down.
    , @Cato
    I agree, wall plus making it difficult for border-jumpers to live and work here. In addition: 1) work towards a saner interpretation of the 14th amendment; 2) reduce the power of drug cartels by legalizing the least harmful of the recreational drugs (giving people enough legal ways to get high, will reduce demand for illegal drugs).
  63. • Replies: @bored identity
    You know who also had god win hunting guardsmen eager to machine-gun whatever got too close to barbed wire fence!?

    Those who don't own History Departments are destined to be on a permanent SPLC shitlist.
  64. @27 year old
    1. paint a big beautiful black line along the border
    2. program a predator drone to vaporize anything larger than X which crosses that line
    3. ???

    Already been done.

    Smart tower construction begins on Turkey’s Syrian border

    The Turkish security authority has started constructing shooting gun towers that can warn and fire automatically

    An automated speaker from the tower will warn the element or person in three languages to leave the area immediately.

    An automated machine gun will start firing at the element if it does not comply.

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    The second-best Korea has an Aliens-style automated sentry gun as well:

    http://newatlas.com/korea-dodamm-super-aegis-autonomos-robot-gun-turret/17198/

    But an alligator-filled moat seems more practical.
  65. OT–Peter Turchin is pretty pessimistic:

    http://phys.org/news/2017-01-social-instability-lies.html

    The victory of Donald Trump changes nothing in this equation. The “social pump” creating new aspirants for political offices continues to operate at full strength. In addition to politically ambitious multi-millionaires, the second important source of such aspirants is U.S. law schools, which every year churn out twice as many law graduates as there are job openings for them – about 25,000 “surplus” lawyers, many of whom are in debt. It is emblematic that the 2016 election pitted a billionaire against a lawyer.

    […]

    From what I have seen so far, it seems unlikely that the Trump administration will succeed in reversing these negative trends. And some of the proposed policies will likely make them worse. For example, drastically reducing taxes on wealthy Americans will hardly strengthen the fiscal health of the state.

  66. @Momus
    Alligators? Really?

    Crocodiles or sharks with frickin’ laser beams would also be acceptable.

  67. Unless something is done about legal immigration, refugee resettlement, and family reunification, you can build a wall or fence or whatever as high as you like, but in the end it will not make much difference.

    • Replies: @eah
    https://twitter.com/LanaLokteff/status/816298433954934784
    , @Buck Turgidson
    I support the idea of the wall, but along with the wall we also need to enforce immigration laws (including all the workplace sanctions that have been mentioned here) and greatly reduce immigration numbers. My preferred number is '0', as in full moratorium on all immigration and ending all family unification and refugee programs. Enough is enough, I think that message came through pretty clearly in Trump's election. If numbers were reduced and all laws enforced, I agree the need for a wall would be greatly reduced; however, since our elected officials are so reluctant to enforce all the laws like they should, build the wall. Further, not everyone is going to follow the law, and it's too easy for invaders to disappear and stay hidden in these ethnic enclaves that seem to be vast and in every large city. Not every invader is a Central American roofer or works at a meat processing plant and that shows up at a job site every day, and has an employer that can be fined.
  68. @Hodag
    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour. Much of our wall must be pre-cast in the factory or the cost will be staggering.

    Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots.

    It’s gonna be built in the South which is not exactly a union stronghold.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    California is.
  69. @whorefinder

    And every single pork barrel legislator would agree.
     
    Trump's Wall (as it will be known) may become the best, most useful, most important single, large-scale infrastructure investment in American history. Of course, Eisenhower's Interstate System will give it a run for it's money.

    If the pork barrel overruns are kept within the range of "eh, so long as it works", it will be worth it. As I've said, whatever the cost of building the wall, the cost of not building it is a thousand times more.

    I think the wall is a good to great idea. I object to random additions like “100 feet of sensors” which would probably just bloat up the project and remind me terribly of the F-35 project. I personally feel that going after enforcement of employers is just as important, if not more so, than a physical barrier.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    It's important to create something that isn't a mere Maginot Line that the invaders---ahem, illegals---circumvent. In WWII, it was by going around; here it would be by tunneling under.

    It's well-documented that illegals have built numerous tunnels under the existing fences along our southern border. The wall needs to structurally take care of this problem----i.e. be built with such deep foundations and such hardened materials that tunneling through would be very difficult and cause those above ground to notice.

    Constantinople had enemies trying to tunnel through, but such folks never succeeded. Whatever worked there to prevent tunneling should be employed now. Any new-fangled "sensors" would be nice, but the old ways would be best---and long-term way more cost effective.
  70. @Jim Don Bob
    It's gonna be built in the South which is not exactly a union stronghold.

    California is.

  71. @Peter Akuleyev
    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    Those are precisely the issues the wall does nothing to stop. The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work. The wall won't stop drugs - Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes. Weapons go from the US south for the most part, they are already easy to obtain in the US.

    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat. If you actually care about stopping immigration, rather than just about annoying liberals, than focus on penalizing workers who hire illegals. Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers' licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment, or do most of the things one needs to do to live long term in a foreign country. Those fixes are not glamorous, and are going to result in countless sob-stories about poor immigrants being mistreated, but that is the serious way to address the problem.

    Given Trump's history of show over substance, I am a little worried the wall is going to be more of the same. A grand symbol to placate voters while little actually changes on the ground.

    If you read my comment, you would notice that I don’t disagree with any of the interior enforcement measures you mention (“all of the above”).

    Again, it’s not wall or “unglamorous” measures; it’s both.

    Interior enforcement is part of Trump’s immigration platform in any case. He also has Sessions, S. Miller, and Kobach(?) on the team. Kelly at HomeSec also looks pretty good.

  72. @eah
    Unless something is done about legal immigration, refugee resettlement, and family reunification, you can build a wall or fence or whatever as high as you like, but in the end it will not make much difference.

  73. @Paul Murphy
    I think the Overton Window just moved quite some distance.

    It’s gonna be a big beautiful wall with a great big Overton Window.

  74. @RW
    A nice idea, but the federal government could not claim or buy all that land.

    Roosevelt Easement says otherwise.

  75. to drop the mask covering up his (admittedly understandable) resentment of Israel

    Why is Obama’s resentment towards Israel understandable? What did Jews do to Obama other than relentlessly promote and support his career?

    His resentment, which is confused with some reluctant admiration anyway, stems from some half-baked Third-Worldist rhetoric he picked up at his church combined with the utterly laughable foreign policy counsel of Ben Rhodes.

  76. @Peter Akuleyev
    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    Those are precisely the issues the wall does nothing to stop. The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work. The wall won't stop drugs - Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes. Weapons go from the US south for the most part, they are already easy to obtain in the US.

    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat. If you actually care about stopping immigration, rather than just about annoying liberals, than focus on penalizing workers who hire illegals. Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers' licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment, or do most of the things one needs to do to live long term in a foreign country. Those fixes are not glamorous, and are going to result in countless sob-stories about poor immigrants being mistreated, but that is the serious way to address the problem.

    Given Trump's history of show over substance, I am a little worried the wall is going to be more of the same. A grand symbol to placate voters while little actually changes on the ground.

    You are doom masturbating. “Muh tunnels and officials” are not responsible for the amount of drugs coming over. Dopers walking 50lb bundles over is where most of it is coming from.

  77. @Dr. X

    The “barrier” fence between Israel and Egypt was built from 2011 to 2013 after thousands of Africans surged in...
     
    A wall to keep out Africans? Africans? How racist is that? Quick, somebody call the New York Times so that they can do a front-page report on the racist Israeli fence!

    How detached is some of the readership here from actual events? The NY Times has run a number of editorials against Israel’s fence and its policy of limiting African immigration generally.

    • Replies: @Frau Katze
    Even the Jewish Bret Stephens at WSJ wrote a column criticizing Israel for this fence.

    The writers at NYT don't care about how many people try to get into Israel, it always wrong to stop them. They're consistent that way, there is no double standard.
  78. @Hodag
    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour. Much of our wall must be pre-cast in the factory or the cost will be staggering.

    Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots.

    Yes, it’s important to keep track of who our real enemies are. White, unionized welders.

  79. @Peter Akuleyev
    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    Those are precisely the issues the wall does nothing to stop. The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work. The wall won't stop drugs - Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes. Weapons go from the US south for the most part, they are already easy to obtain in the US.

    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat. If you actually care about stopping immigration, rather than just about annoying liberals, than focus on penalizing workers who hire illegals. Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers' licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment, or do most of the things one needs to do to live long term in a foreign country. Those fixes are not glamorous, and are going to result in countless sob-stories about poor immigrants being mistreated, but that is the serious way to address the problem.

    Given Trump's history of show over substance, I am a little worried the wall is going to be more of the same. A grand symbol to placate voters while little actually changes on the ground.

    The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work.

    Interesting phrasing. I’ve seen many show up; try to find work; not find it; go on welfare.

    Let us stop with the pity stories regarding immigrants.

    • Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    "Interesting phrasing. I’ve seen many show up; try to find work; not find it; go on welfare.

    Let us stop with the pity stories regarding immigrants."

    The more common scenario:

    They show up, find work under the table, pretend they can't find work, go on welfare, impregnate their senoritas, drop a few anchor babies, and now qualify for tons more welfare.

    Their cheap undocumented labor is ten times offset by foodstamps, TANF, medical care, daycare, public schooling (i.e., daycare for teenagers), SSI, and inevitable incarceration costs.

    Mexicants are a net drain on White America.
  80. @whorefinder
    I would prefer something as near-unbreachable as the multi-layered Walls of Constantinople, which lasted for more than a thousand years against numerous enemies until the Turks finally figured out how to breach them---and, in doing so, inadvertently launched the European Renaissance:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Walls_of_Constantinople

    Go big or go home, baby!

    The Turks aren’t that hot on figuring things out. It was a Hungarian engineer named Orban.

  81. @SFG
    Actually enforcing E-verify would be much more effective than a wall, to be honest. Start fining businesses who employ illegal workers to the degree it doesn't pay to do it--if they can't get paid, they won't come.

    But, of course, that would go against Free Enterprise (tm) and all the businessmen who write the congressmen's campaign checks. So, hey, wall.

    Screw fining them. Put some in prison. Make sure to explain what they are in prison for to the local white prison gang.

  82. @Hippopotamusdrome
    Already been done.


    Smart tower construction begins on Turkey's Syrian border
    ...
    The Turkish security authority has started constructing shooting gun towers that can warn and fire automatically
    ...
    An automated speaker from the tower will warn the element or person in three languages to leave the area immediately.

    An automated machine gun will start firing at the element if it does not comply.

     

    The second-best Korea has an Aliens-style automated sentry gun as well:

    http://newatlas.com/korea-dodamm-super-aegis-autonomos-robot-gun-turret/17198/

    But an alligator-filled moat seems more practical.

  83. @newrouter
    "separated by about 100 feet full of sensors,"

    landmines work better

    chupacabras are cheaper.

  84. @Peter Akuleyev
    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    Those are precisely the issues the wall does nothing to stop. The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work. The wall won't stop drugs - Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes. Weapons go from the US south for the most part, they are already easy to obtain in the US.

    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat. If you actually care about stopping immigration, rather than just about annoying liberals, than focus on penalizing workers who hire illegals. Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers' licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment, or do most of the things one needs to do to live long term in a foreign country. Those fixes are not glamorous, and are going to result in countless sob-stories about poor immigrants being mistreated, but that is the serious way to address the problem.

    Given Trump's history of show over substance, I am a little worried the wall is going to be more of the same. A grand symbol to placate voters while little actually changes on the ground.

    The wall won’t stop drugs – Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes.

    What officials? Corrupt Mexican officials or the US officials? If it’s the latter then Trump needs to crack down on them ASAP. We’re not a Latin America banana republic; corruption shouldn’t be given a wink, nod by an Anglo gov’t that claims it respects the rule-of-law. And airplanes? Where would they land- LAX? Dallas-Fort Worth? That’s where drug sniffing beagles can be deployed, among other things. The wall will help keep out the drugs Big League, Trust Me.

    Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers’ licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment

    If any state tried to ban illegals from buying cars or renting apartments the ACLU would scream bloody murder and start filing law suits left and right claiming “discrimination” (see Hazelton PA). I agree a measure like this should be taken at the fed. level, but I don’t even think Trump has the cajones to take on such a fight.

    As for attending public schools, surely you’ve hear of Plyler v. Doe, the 1982 Supreme Court case where a 5-4 majority decreed that illegals have an unalienable right to free public education? “This is settled law!” liberals will howl. Remember CA’s Prop 187 which passed w/ 59% of the vote but open borders leftists staged a mini coup d’état by getting one (1) Jimmy Carter appointed judge to annul the democratic will of the voters thus deciding the fate of the US’s most populous state?

    • Replies: @Moshe
    Talking about corruption on the American Border regarding drugs, I'd like to note that Border Cintrol (not PAtrol, which is further inland and less evil) is about as corrupt as they come. And not just corrupt but cruel and evil as well.

    I have the personal investigations and analytical acuity to be trusted on this matter though the latter I will leave to your judgement and the former I don't care to discuss.

    The disgusting wretches (many of whom are Mexican) at the American border, especially at out-of-the-way borders, rather than San Diego are so corrupt that there are government mandated signs in their back offices that are like Marlboro labels - of the Americans sort - that half-heartedly recommend not moving millions of dollars worth of drugs across.

    And to cover their own corruption, they fly fish innocent tourists into being intimidated by paid Mexicans into doing business with them.

    Also, if they have any reason to hope that you might be a drug businessman skipping out the border control middle man, they will violate every one of your constitutional rights in the off chance that you might be one of those people.

    Despite vaster powers and more opportunities for corruption, the border PAtrol are generally nicer, more honest, less Mexican and less in need of creating citizens scapegoats.

    Lest I be misunderstood, I should note that they as well do not care very much about finding illegal crossers (really. It just means boring paperwork). But they are a different sort of people than those working at the less busy borders.

    The interesting thing is that anyone attempting to sneak some small amount of an illegal substance across would have a much greater opportunity to do so at one of the busier borders.

    But the busier borders allow for much less Control corruption due to how many people they have on staff and how different people are many different lines at different times.

    Less common control points however are perfect for it.

    I think that a great way to solve much of America's illegal drug problem would be to drone strike every one of these small border crossings and then to re-man them with a random assortment of Americans who, with one exception I suppose, do not speak Mexican.

    But first the drone strikes. Everyone hit is guaranteed to be guilty and it would send a useful message.
  85. @anon
    OT: Wow, this is impressive! Gives a whole new meaning to Orient Express.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/03/asia/china-train-london-trnd/

    London is the Fifteenth European city to be so serviced.
    This was Mackinder’s great fear. That the heartland of the world would become integrated without the need for ocean trade routes. Without ocean trade routes to threaten and interdict
    peripheral nations would become less puissant. Great Britain and the USA are the peripheral empires and the One Belt One Road routes around potential interference much like the internet does.
    The original silk road brought the silks and porcelains, the spices and dyes, the science and literature from the east to the west and took the science and literature and the silver of the west back. The new Silk Road will do all that and a lot more.
    The Bush and Obama administrations have done their worst to impede the development; one can only hope that the Trump administration can find a way to get dealt into the deal.

    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    Good thing the USA has spent the past fifty years interdicting trade or otherwise this theory might seemed retarded.

    It's far easier to interdict land based trading because it's a lot easier to stop every truck than it is to stop every boat.

    But remember every poster on here is just a good old founding stock WASP- that somehow holds a giant resentment towards to the greatest WASP nations on earth.
    , @Neoconned
    A Russo-German alliance would make more sense for both parties than an Anglo American alliance where the Germans pretend they like to bee occupied by foreigners who attract foreign terrorists or to pretend they believe in free market free trade horseshit.

    I'm not familiar with Mackinder or his Homeland thesis. Thanks for the reference.

  86. @Peter Akuleyev
    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    Those are precisely the issues the wall does nothing to stop. The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work. The wall won't stop drugs - Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes. Weapons go from the US south for the most part, they are already easy to obtain in the US.

    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat. If you actually care about stopping immigration, rather than just about annoying liberals, than focus on penalizing workers who hire illegals. Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers' licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment, or do most of the things one needs to do to live long term in a foreign country. Those fixes are not glamorous, and are going to result in countless sob-stories about poor immigrants being mistreated, but that is the serious way to address the problem.

    Given Trump's history of show over substance, I am a little worried the wall is going to be more of the same. A grand symbol to placate voters while little actually changes on the ground.

    The wall is to keep out illegal immigrants.
    Drug gang control is not its purpose.
    Your suggestions would be superb at helping the already resident illegals to decide to return home.
    Your last paragraph starts with a given that isn’t but your concern trolling is noted.

  87. @TheHardRight
    $1,000 per linear foot = $5 million per mile = $9.7 billion for the entire 1933 mile border. I'm pretty sure the defense budget can spare that.

    Big Ag/Pharma should have to pay for this.

  88. @eah
    Unless something is done about legal immigration, refugee resettlement, and family reunification, you can build a wall or fence or whatever as high as you like, but in the end it will not make much difference.

    I support the idea of the wall, but along with the wall we also need to enforce immigration laws (including all the workplace sanctions that have been mentioned here) and greatly reduce immigration numbers. My preferred number is ‘0’, as in full moratorium on all immigration and ending all family unification and refugee programs. Enough is enough, I think that message came through pretty clearly in Trump’s election. If numbers were reduced and all laws enforced, I agree the need for a wall would be greatly reduced; however, since our elected officials are so reluctant to enforce all the laws like they should, build the wall. Further, not everyone is going to follow the law, and it’s too easy for invaders to disappear and stay hidden in these ethnic enclaves that seem to be vast and in every large city. Not every invader is a Central American roofer or works at a meat processing plant and that shows up at a job site every day, and has an employer that can be fined.

  89. @Hodag
    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour. Much of our wall must be pre-cast in the factory or the cost will be staggering.

    Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots.

    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour.

    No, they don’t.

    • Replies: @Neoconned
    I tried getting a welding job at both of Northrop Grummans old naval shipyards in New Orleans and Mississippi. Both shipyards have welders represented by different unions but mainly the boilermaker union.

    FIRST CLASS union welders with 5 plus years experiece of professional craft/trade knowledge there make $17-23 per hour based on seniorty, amount of time on the job, etc.

    In California welders make about 40$/hour in a welder craft union or a boilermaker union.

    NO WELDERS make $100/hour anywhere in this country unless they have side investments in the stock markets or something.

    I dunno where that guy got that number but he's full of shit. I know in Houston and Austin that welders make$25-30 per hr.....that poster is full of bullshit.
    , @Hodag
    http://iwlocal1.com/Wage%20Scale%20for%202014-2015.html

    A touch out of date but union Ironworkers in northern Illinois had a +$80 an hour wage package.

    There is a premium for high work.

    With federal government prevailing (read union) wage rates this is the cost of poker.

    On the union construction sites I am familiar with the Ironworkers would call dibs on that work.
  90. @Jimi Shmendrix
    No. Completely wrong.

    Obama just reversed decades of US policy (AFTER he and his party were repudiated by the voters), by allowing the UN to redefine "settlements" (including the holy sites of Jerusalem) as illegally occupied, a subtle but significant difference that paves the way for further international interference.

    A bitch move by a lame duck, no matter how you look at it.

    It was one of the very few things Obama has gotten right in the past 8 years.

    • Agree: Opinionator
  91. @Fredrik
    I guess then you don't want the Border Patrol to patrol in there?

    A “no man’s land” is an effective border. See S/N Korea.

  92. @Peter Akuleyev
    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    Those are precisely the issues the wall does nothing to stop. The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work. The wall won't stop drugs - Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes. Weapons go from the US south for the most part, they are already easy to obtain in the US.

    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat. If you actually care about stopping immigration, rather than just about annoying liberals, than focus on penalizing workers who hire illegals. Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers' licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment, or do most of the things one needs to do to live long term in a foreign country. Those fixes are not glamorous, and are going to result in countless sob-stories about poor immigrants being mistreated, but that is the serious way to address the problem.

    Given Trump's history of show over substance, I am a little worried the wall is going to be more of the same. A grand symbol to placate voters while little actually changes on the ground.

    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat.

    Who the hell are you arguing with? No one here thinks a wall is the only thing we need to secure our borders. Every single commenter understands the need for further interior enforcement, including stiff penalties for employers who hire illegals.

    A wall is essential, though, for several reasons. One is that it keeps out those, like drug smugglers, who come for reasons besides work. Yes, some of them have tunnels. But many don’t, and it’s easier to focus on locating and closing down the tunnels when the frontier is more secure. A wall is like a dishwasher, clothes washer, or vacuum cleaner. Those appliances don’t end housework, they just make it a lot easier and more efficient.

    Second, current asylum policy allows people on out territory to request asylum. Well, they can’t request asylum if they can’t step onto our territory.

    Third, a wall is a physical manifestation of a desire to secure our border. Once it’s there, every beautiful mile of it, let the Left dare to proclaim that securing our border was never part of “what our country was.” Once that wall is in place it’s going to be awfully hard to find the political will to tear the thing down.

  93. From Vox:

    Building a wall would represent an enormous change in the American attitude toward immigration, toward Mexico, toward its welcoming image in the rest of the world. It would have massive (and probably unanticipated) effects on immigration into and emigration out of the US, and it would very probably cost human lives.

    Mexico is in really rough shape right now. The country is facing nationwide protests (and occasional outbreaks of violence) because gas prices are rising and the peso is falling — and the peso is falling because of speculation about what’s going to happen under a Trump administration.

    Mexico’s government understands that it needs good relations with the US. President Enrique Peña Nieto just brought back Luis Videgaray, the former finance minister who arranged for Trump to visit Mexico during the campaign (and all but got sacked for it), to serve as foreign minister.

    Trump’s administration-in-waiting thinks it can work with Videgaray, according to Costa. They know they have the upper hand. Mexico knows that too. And both sides know that moving to build a wall will put huge pressure on Mexico. Because they know that who pays for the wall is ultimately less important, and has less of an impact, than the fact that a wall exists. …

    The incoming administration, though, is not proposing to build a metaphor. It’s proposing a physical barrier. And physical barriers have massive policy consequences. The buildup of border security in the late 1990s and 2000s led millions of unauthorized immigrants to settle in the US; hundreds of people have died trying to avoid fenced-off regions of the border by crossing inhospitable desert instead.

    The implications of the wall — demographic, environmental, symbolic — are huge. …

    The liberal talking points on immigration are getting more and more absurd. They don’t even have a real argument why we shouldn’t build a wall. Their entire case is essentially “wow, just wow”.

    • Replies: @Jasper Been
    I agree with you. And the USA no longer needs to have a "welcoming image." There are a lot better and more important images for this country to project.
  94. I am so sick of Jews and Israel. We can build a fence without the help of Israel, and we can run a first world nation without Jews and their issues.

    We don’t need a fence, anyway. We need to harshly punish people who come here illegally, and then deport them. Immigrants only show up because someone will welcome them. Destroy the welcome wagon and the problem is solved.

  95. @Hodag
    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour. Much of our wall must be pre-cast in the factory or the cost will be staggering.

    Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots.

    Union iron workers make $260,000 per year with 40 hours per week? How stupid do you this we are?

    • Replies: @Neoconned
    My former manager was married to a travelling union welder with the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers.

    He went all over. Out west, Midwest etc.

    She told me working 100 hours per week he cleared $120k per year. Pretax.....

    That number is full of shit.
  96. @Hodag
    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour. Much of our wall must be pre-cast in the factory or the cost will be staggering.

    Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots.

    I should have been a welder.

  97. Walls are stronger. A great wall thoroughly alienates, and gives no surveillance opportunities from the outside. Restricted, one-way surveilance is what’s needed.
    A fence will be a magnet. Not just for invaders, protestors and militants; but for the media, who will film hours of humanity porn for broadcast on CNN, et al.

  98. @Hodag
    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour. Much of our wall must be pre-cast in the factory or the cost will be staggering.

    Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots.

    > Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots

    I grant to YOU, the privilege of being the first to drive a laden truck, across a bridge which was welded together by a robot.

    • Replies: @Faraday's Bobcat
    The Saturn V launch vehicle was welded together by robots.
  99. I periodically drive a stretch of freeway that has pre-cast concrete barriers on either side. They appear to be at least 30 feet tall, and look substantial. Most of them were erected after the freeways were built, in response to noise-abatement regulations.

    It should not be difficult to use similar barriers as border walls. Of course they will have to be supplemented with active law enforcement. The Border Patrol used, at least, to field championship pistol teams. Col. Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Skelton were all at one time Border Patrolmen, and they had plenty of opportunity to exercise their skills on the job. We need to recruit similar men today and give them similar rules of engagement to those that prevailed in the heyday of Askins et al.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    You mention Col. Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Skelton as fabled Border Patrolmen, but let's not forget Tom Threepersons, featured in this excerpt from the San Antonio Light, July 25, 1937, titled "2,000 Miles of Trouble and Thrills for U.S.--Mexican Border Patrol."

    It is trite but true that this country is still the most attractive in the world for the individual who toils, and thousands of Mexicans—not to mention the Chinese, Japanese, Russians and others—are aware that it is true. They are willing to pay to get in. And there are smugglers anxious to accept the pay, in defiance of Federal law.

    Most of these contrabands are chronic failures and malcontents in their homelands. They are natural radicals. They are prime material for whatever agitation and dissension is afoot. Especially are they receptive to the propaganda of Communism. To combat them Uncle Sam relies almost solely on his too few guardians called the Border Patrol. The average "mountie" along the Rio Grande has 10 times the excitement and drama seen by the average Royal Canadian Mountie, notwithstanding the latter gentlemen's crimson uniform and volunteer press agents.

    The deficiency in the United States Border Patrol is that of numbers and equipment. It is miraculous that these officers have done as well as they have, for after all there are only 24 possible working hours even in a strong he-man officer's day. One recent instance will illustrate the point.

    Along one stretch of border, about 100 miles, five immigration officers — no more — were supposed to keep careful watch for a time. In one night twelve crossings were attempted, with probably half a dozen or more aliens in each group, under armed escort.

    It is true that the typical Border Patrolman with his pistol can shoot a tick off a cow at 200 yards, figuratively speaking, but even he cannot be omnipresent. Those five officers each had an average of twenty miles—rugged, waterless, thorny, desert miles—to cover. Between them they had two automobiles, one a truck; and eight horses, one with colt.

    Moreover, two of the crossings were effected in airplanes, for many dealers in human contraband are efficient and modern. The night carried no moon, and that added zest, no doubt, to the merry game of hide and seek. In spite of all that, eight of the attempts were thwarted and 22 arrests were made.

    Intercepting the' smugglers is largely a matter of outguessing them. Leaders in the Immigration and Naturalization Service of the Southwest, having spent years and frequently decades in the outdoors there, become so acquainted with the terrain and with the habits of foreigners that they can simply lie in wait.

    Two patrolmen, armed with automatic rifles, pistols and night flares, sometimes roundup a dozen aliens on one sally. The officers do not guarantee, however, that the aliens intercepted will all be alive.

    Probably the classic instance of this sort is that of Tom Threepersons, a huge man of Cherokee Indian blood, who served Uncle Sam for a time around El Paso, Texas. Tom really could shoot a tick off a cow, literally (although not at 200 yards). It was said, too, that he could smell smugglers as a dog smells birds.

    In any event, he had a hunch one midnight that something was stirring along the river and he went to a favored crossing spot with a friend. The Rio Grande there was not deep, Men could wade it safely in dry season. When Tom and his partner got there a group of aliens was already starting into the water from the Mexican side. Tom could see them plainly with his field glasses.

    "You better hustle back for help," whispered Tom's friend. "I'll hide here and watch which way they go."

    "Nope. You go, I'll watch." Tom was insistent. Soon he was alone.

    He crept to the shadows of a cottonwood tree near the American bank of the river. In a minute or two he was able to count sixteen 'men. Some of them carried sacks of contraband liquor, but they, too, were aliens, it developed later.

    Tom felt it as a personal affront that this many undesirables should try to sneak into his country, especially in his service zone. When they reached dry land he poked a pistol around each side of his cottonwood, straddling the tree with his arms.

    "Halt where you are!" he called, in Spanish. "You're under arrest."

    But the foreigners were disposed to argue about it, with bullets rather than words. A machine gun across the river picked up their side of the argument, too; but it proved to be ineffective in the darkness.

    Nobody will ever know just how many shots were fired, or exactly everything that happened. Cherokee Tom never was given to much conversation. His official reports were always meagre. The fact remains that he walked later that night into the county jail, herding five dazed Mexicans. Next day it was necessary to bury eleven more.

     

    , @Jack Hanson
    They still do.

    The National Border Patrol Council has a serious in with Trump right now. Right now the issue is whether or not the Border Patrol gets the interior enforcement mission back from ICE, who is more worried about counterfeit NFL merch than criminal aliens.

    , @Boomstick
    Hesco barriers like this:

    http://www.gabionbarrier.com/upload/20141025/20141025160648838.jpg

    Are popular in the military world. It's basically a box that you fill up with dirt using a front loader. They're good at stopping vehicles and can be put up fast. The bases built with them look like crusader forts. Hesco barriers can be combined with concertina wire and, of course, sensors. Dunno how the cost compares to precast concrete walls, plus the cost of moving the walls to the site. Maybe the Hescos are less vulnerable to the vandalism that will doubtless occur. The alligator-filled moat will also discourage vandalism.

    Any wall or obstacle is really just a way to force movement into choke points or to delay the invader long enough for guards to reach the area.
    , @Dan Hayes
    Crawfurdmiur:

    The operational definition of the Border Patrol at one time was "Shoot First and Ask Questions Later." For evidence of this note later replies to your post.
  100. @Paul Murphy
    I think the Overton Window just moved quite some distance.

    If you are a younger Democrat like, say, Senator Cory Booker, who just a month ago was happily looking forward to a well-funded future of big donations from Jews paranoid about Trump’s purported anti-Semitism, you can’t be pleased with Obama’s decision during his lame duck period to drop the mask covering up his (admittedly understandable) resentment of Israel.

    Why is Obama’s resentment of Israel understandable? What have the Israelis ever done to him personally?

  101. @Crawfurdmuir
    I periodically drive a stretch of freeway that has pre-cast concrete barriers on either side. They appear to be at least 30 feet tall, and look substantial. Most of them were erected after the freeways were built, in response to noise-abatement regulations.

    It should not be difficult to use similar barriers as border walls. Of course they will have to be supplemented with active law enforcement. The Border Patrol used, at least, to field championship pistol teams. Col. Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Skelton were all at one time Border Patrolmen, and they had plenty of opportunity to exercise their skills on the job. We need to recruit similar men today and give them similar rules of engagement to those that prevailed in the heyday of Askins et al.

    You mention Col. Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Skelton as fabled Border Patrolmen, but let’s not forget Tom Threepersons, featured in this excerpt from the San Antonio Light, July 25, 1937, titled “2,000 Miles of Trouble and Thrills for U.S.–Mexican Border Patrol.”

    It is trite but true that this country is still the most attractive in the world for the individual who toils, and thousands of Mexicans—not to mention the Chinese, Japanese, Russians and others—are aware that it is true. They are willing to pay to get in. And there are smugglers anxious to accept the pay, in defiance of Federal law.

    Most of these contrabands are chronic failures and malcontents in their homelands. They are natural radicals. They are prime material for whatever agitation and dissension is afoot. Especially are they receptive to the propaganda of Communism. To combat them Uncle Sam relies almost solely on his too few guardians called the Border Patrol. The average “mountie” along the Rio Grande has 10 times the excitement and drama seen by the average Royal Canadian Mountie, notwithstanding the latter gentlemen’s crimson uniform and volunteer press agents.

    The deficiency in the United States Border Patrol is that of numbers and equipment. It is miraculous that these officers have done as well as they have, for after all there are only 24 possible working hours even in a strong he-man officer’s day. One recent instance will illustrate the point.

    Along one stretch of border, about 100 miles, five immigration officers — no more — were supposed to keep careful watch for a time. In one night twelve crossings were attempted, with probably half a dozen or more aliens in each group, under armed escort.

    It is true that the typical Border Patrolman with his pistol can shoot a tick off a cow at 200 yards, figuratively speaking, but even he cannot be omnipresent. Those five officers each had an average of twenty miles—rugged, waterless, thorny, desert miles—to cover. Between them they had two automobiles, one a truck; and eight horses, one with colt.

    Moreover, two of the crossings were effected in airplanes, for many dealers in human contraband are efficient and modern. The night carried no moon, and that added zest, no doubt, to the merry game of hide and seek. In spite of all that, eight of the attempts were thwarted and 22 arrests were made.

    Intercepting the’ smugglers is largely a matter of outguessing them. Leaders in the Immigration and Naturalization Service of the Southwest, having spent years and frequently decades in the outdoors there, become so acquainted with the terrain and with the habits of foreigners that they can simply lie in wait.

    Two patrolmen, armed with automatic rifles, pistols and night flares, sometimes roundup a dozen aliens on one sally. The officers do not guarantee, however, that the aliens intercepted will all be alive.

    Probably the classic instance of this sort is that of Tom Threepersons, a huge man of Cherokee Indian blood, who served Uncle Sam for a time around El Paso, Texas. Tom really could shoot a tick off a cow, literally (although not at 200 yards). It was said, too, that he could smell smugglers as a dog smells birds.

    In any event, he had a hunch one midnight that something was stirring along the river and he went to a favored crossing spot with a friend. The Rio Grande there was not deep, Men could wade it safely in dry season. When Tom and his partner got there a group of aliens was already starting into the water from the Mexican side. Tom could see them plainly with his field glasses.

    “You better hustle back for help,” whispered Tom’s friend. “I’ll hide here and watch which way they go.”

    “Nope. You go, I’ll watch.” Tom was insistent. Soon he was alone.

    He crept to the shadows of a cottonwood tree near the American bank of the river. In a minute or two he was able to count sixteen ‘men. Some of them carried sacks of contraband liquor, but they, too, were aliens, it developed later.

    Tom felt it as a personal affront that this many undesirables should try to sneak into his country, especially in his service zone. When they reached dry land he poked a pistol around each side of his cottonwood, straddling the tree with his arms.

    “Halt where you are!” he called, in Spanish. “You’re under arrest.”

    But the foreigners were disposed to argue about it, with bullets rather than words. A machine gun across the river picked up their side of the argument, too; but it proved to be ineffective in the darkness.

    Nobody will ever know just how many shots were fired, or exactly everything that happened. Cherokee Tom never was given to much conversation. His official reports were always meagre. The fact remains that he walked later that night into the county jail, herding five dazed Mexicans. Next day it was necessary to bury eleven more.

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
    Thanks - a great story, and one that deserves to be retold repeatedly!
    , @ben tillman
    Wow -- that was really entertaining and just overall awesome!

    Tom really could shoot a tick off a cow, literally (although not at 200 yards).
     
    LOL!!!!!
  102. @Karl
    > Frankly, these could be manufactured easily with welding robots

    I grant to YOU, the privilege of being the first to drive a laden truck, across a bridge which was welded together by a robot.

    The Saturn V launch vehicle was welded together by robots.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    US submarines are welded by robots as are most cars. It is one thing robots do really well.
  103. @SFG
    Actually enforcing E-verify would be much more effective than a wall, to be honest. Start fining businesses who employ illegal workers to the degree it doesn't pay to do it--if they can't get paid, they won't come.

    But, of course, that would go against Free Enterprise (tm) and all the businessmen who write the congressmen's campaign checks. So, hey, wall.

    Start jailing people who knowingly employ illegals – and see illegal immigration plummeting in no time. It won’t take long – within a year the things will be normalized if enough people will be made an example of. Start with GOP senators and Silicon Valley liberals for the best outcomes.

  104. @Bill P

    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour.
     
    No, they don't.

    I tried getting a welding job at both of Northrop Grummans old naval shipyards in New Orleans and Mississippi. Both shipyards have welders represented by different unions but mainly the boilermaker union.

    FIRST CLASS union welders with 5 plus years experiece of professional craft/trade knowledge there make $17-23 per hour based on seniorty, amount of time on the job, etc.

    In California welders make about 40$/hour in a welder craft union or a boilermaker union.

    NO WELDERS make $100/hour anywhere in this country unless they have side investments in the stock markets or something.

    I dunno where that guy got that number but he’s full of shit. I know in Houston and Austin that welders make$25-30 per hr…..that poster is full of bullshit.

    • Replies: @epebble
    He may be talking about specialty welding skills like TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas welding) or Plasma Arc Welding. Not all welds are equal; If you are working on special metal welding for a military or aerospace contractor, I am sure you can make a lot more than as a commercial welder as you are protected from international competition.
  105. @Crawfurdmuir
    I periodically drive a stretch of freeway that has pre-cast concrete barriers on either side. They appear to be at least 30 feet tall, and look substantial. Most of them were erected after the freeways were built, in response to noise-abatement regulations.

    It should not be difficult to use similar barriers as border walls. Of course they will have to be supplemented with active law enforcement. The Border Patrol used, at least, to field championship pistol teams. Col. Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Skelton were all at one time Border Patrolmen, and they had plenty of opportunity to exercise their skills on the job. We need to recruit similar men today and give them similar rules of engagement to those that prevailed in the heyday of Askins et al.

    They still do.

    The National Border Patrol Council has a serious in with Trump right now. Right now the issue is whether or not the Border Patrol gets the interior enforcement mission back from ICE, who is more worried about counterfeit NFL merch than criminal aliens.

  106. @CK
    London is the Fifteenth European city to be so serviced.
    This was Mackinder's great fear. That the heartland of the world would become integrated without the need for ocean trade routes. Without ocean trade routes to threaten and interdict
    peripheral nations would become less puissant. Great Britain and the USA are the peripheral empires and the One Belt One Road routes around potential interference much like the internet does.
    The original silk road brought the silks and porcelains, the spices and dyes, the science and literature from the east to the west and took the science and literature and the silver of the west back. The new Silk Road will do all that and a lot more.
    The Bush and Obama administrations have done their worst to impede the development; one can only hope that the Trump administration can find a way to get dealt into the deal.

    Good thing the USA has spent the past fifty years interdicting trade or otherwise this theory might seemed retarded.

    It’s far easier to interdict land based trading because it’s a lot easier to stop every truck than it is to stop every boat.

    But remember every poster on here is just a good old founding stock WASP- that somehow holds a giant resentment towards to the greatest WASP nations on earth.

    • Replies: @CK
    You might want to ask the Japanese how easy it was to destroy their shipping.
    You might want to measure how far the One Road is from any airbase and the life expectancy of any interdicting Carrier group.
  107. @cucksworth
    Union iron workers make $260,000 per year with 40 hours per week? How stupid do you this we are?

    My former manager was married to a travelling union welder with the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers.

    He went all over. Out west, Midwest etc.

    She told me working 100 hours per week he cleared $120k per year. Pretax…..

    That number is full of shit.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian

    My former manager was married to a travelling union welder with the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers. He went all over. Out west, Midwest etc. She told me working 100 hours per week he cleared $120k per year. Pretax…..That number is full of shit.
     
    Free lancers, maybe? Welding is a pisser of a job, hard work, much outdoors, some underwater and I hear the rates are at the very most 65/hour and materials. My free-lance IT and telecom services bring $105/hour (time and a half weekends and evenings), plus trip charges and materials when cables are pulled or phones added. All the work is indoors, clean offices, clean travel, little danger except for the travel. I see a lot of guys out there that work their asses off in seemingly higher-skilled jobs than I occupy, yet they can only charge half or less.

    The markets feel skewed to me, I'm not bragging or complaining, but it mystifies me that (to me) not-so-special IT and Telecommunications skills command the money they do over serious skills that require far more effort to complete the mission..
  108. @CK
    London is the Fifteenth European city to be so serviced.
    This was Mackinder's great fear. That the heartland of the world would become integrated without the need for ocean trade routes. Without ocean trade routes to threaten and interdict
    peripheral nations would become less puissant. Great Britain and the USA are the peripheral empires and the One Belt One Road routes around potential interference much like the internet does.
    The original silk road brought the silks and porcelains, the spices and dyes, the science and literature from the east to the west and took the science and literature and the silver of the west back. The new Silk Road will do all that and a lot more.
    The Bush and Obama administrations have done their worst to impede the development; one can only hope that the Trump administration can find a way to get dealt into the deal.

    A Russo-German alliance would make more sense for both parties than an Anglo American alliance where the Germans pretend they like to bee occupied by foreigners who attract foreign terrorists or to pretend they believe in free market free trade horseshit.

    I’m not familiar with Mackinder or his Homeland thesis. Thanks for the reference.

    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    The last Russian-German "alliance" worked out great for East Germany.

    I think it would be useful if we just acknowledged straight up that the most important goal for a large contingent of posters here is the destruction of American power. That might save us the time of wading through everyone's fan fiction account of how that obliteration will occur.

    Only a person with no idea about history could think a Russian German alliance makes more sense than US-German alliance. Russia can't even eschew threatening Germany with energy blackmail. How on earth do you divine the basis for a political alliance between the two countries.
  109. @biz
    How detached is some of the readership here from actual events? The NY Times has run a number of editorials against Israel's fence and its policy of limiting African immigration generally.

    Even the Jewish Bret Stephens at WSJ wrote a column criticizing Israel for this fence.

    The writers at NYT don’t care about how many people try to get into Israel, it always wrong to stop them. They’re consistent that way, there is no double standard.

  110. @anony-mouse
    US border a bit more complex.

    a/ Israel has basically one international airport. US has a hundred?

    b/ Israel has 2 seacoasts neither too long. Even excluding AK, HI, PR, VI the US has lots of islands and very long coasts. Look at all the Cubans who made landfall over the decades using far flimsier crafts than in the Mediterranean.

    c/ Canadian border. People of course will never smuggle themselves into Canada and then into the US, will they?

    Wall? Great. Then what?

    Very few Canadians of European descent are so desperate they want to become illegals in the US. That would apply even to immigrants, with one exception: a crazy Muslim might try it, thinking he could do more damage in the US.

    One tried, I think it was before 9/11. But he just tried to cross at a regular border point, on an sea route from Vancouver Island to Washington. The border officials checked his trunk and found a large amount of a white powder. They thought it was cocaine and had him hauled in.

    As for people from south of the US border, looking for day labour, how are they going get to Canada? Fly? That’s not cheap.

  111. @Jack D
    That’s about $2.5 million per mile. A very effective fence....It’s basically built with rebar and razor wire,”

    This will never fly in America. Not enough opportunities for graft. We need around 700 more miles of fence, so that's less than $2 billion. The F-35 program will cost $1.5 TRILLION. $2 billion is not enough to excite any politicians. We need a "high tech" fence that costs AT LEAST $1 billion per mile like a NY subway. It should be made of carbon fiber and unobtanium as showcase of American technological prowess. It should be invisible on radar. Maybe it should be invisible period.

    Maybe we could station a mime every quarter mile or so, to pretend he was stopped by a fence.

  112. @Larry, San Francisco
    Well duh, Trump is smarter than Hitler. Although many German socialists were Jewish most German Jews were bourgeois or petty bourgeois and may have supported a nationalist party (Mussolini had a lot of Jewish support until he allied himself with Hitler). Germans before Hitler were not particularly antisemitic (Austrians were more) and the Nazi's downplayed their antisemitism in their election campaigns. Given that a Jewish scientist (Fritz Haber) was the brains behind Germany's survival in World War (he invented the Haber process which let Germany create explosives even after they were blockaded) perhaps Hitler should have thought that he should have those scientists on his side. Instead the Jewish scientists (and many of their non-Jewish peers) fled to allied countries where they invented the A-bomb and improved other war technology. If you want to invade the world you probably should not persecute the smartest people in your country.

    Face it: Hitler was a loser and a stupid one at that.

    German Jews were well educated and tended to think of themselves as proud Germans.

    Why people continue to obsess over Jews after the the unmitigated disaster Hitler brought upon the German gentiles is a mystery to me.

    You couldn’t have designed someone worse.

    • Replies: @SFG
    There are a metric ton of lefty Jews pushing leftism, basically. Notice in places like England where the Jewish population is less lopsidedly lefty (a slim majority actually went for Brexit) the far right is less aggressively anti-Semitic.

    I do agree Hitler blew it, big time. His big mistake, IMHO, was trying to run a racially pure empire; forget the Jews, it kept him from making various Slavs a better offer, especially considering that the alternative was frickin' Stalin. Empires are multi-ethnic; you have to give the various groups you're trying to conquer a stake in the game, and they have to be better off than they were under the last ruler. It's how all the empires of the ancient world worked. We just got lucky in that the Native Americans couldn't put up much of a fight, and we were able to fill the frontier with Americans.

  113. Why are so many commenters saying “a fence won’t solve all problems” so we might as well not bother but just sit around and whine about everything.

    It’s a start, and many commenters have other constructive suggestions. It’s also a powerful symbol.

    What’s the alternative?

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Confucious say, "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".
  114. @Sam Haysom
    Good thing the USA has spent the past fifty years interdicting trade or otherwise this theory might seemed retarded.

    It's far easier to interdict land based trading because it's a lot easier to stop every truck than it is to stop every boat.

    But remember every poster on here is just a good old founding stock WASP- that somehow holds a giant resentment towards to the greatest WASP nations on earth.

    You might want to ask the Japanese how easy it was to destroy their shipping.
    You might want to measure how far the One Road is from any airbase and the life expectancy of any interdicting Carrier group.

  115. How hard would it be for the CIA to infiltrate the Mexican cartels? With our electronic eavesdropping capability and Mexican’s natural inability to stop corruption, we probably would know when and where the tunnels will be before they did. Every time we find one, leak it out that some unwitting cartel member tipped off the Americanos and you will have them shooting and cutting each others heads in a heart beat. Hell, the Mexicans are so corrupt, we could probably bribe them to build tunnels to take back their citizens back.

    • Replies: @SFG
    Human intelligence and signals intelligence are two very different things. I doubt the CIA has that many Spanish-speaking agents.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Someone made the crack that a job in the CIA generally does not involve chronic diarrhea in a third world s******e. An air conditioned office in Langley is so much more pleasant.
  116. @Harry Baldwin
    You mention Col. Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Skelton as fabled Border Patrolmen, but let's not forget Tom Threepersons, featured in this excerpt from the San Antonio Light, July 25, 1937, titled "2,000 Miles of Trouble and Thrills for U.S.--Mexican Border Patrol."

    It is trite but true that this country is still the most attractive in the world for the individual who toils, and thousands of Mexicans—not to mention the Chinese, Japanese, Russians and others—are aware that it is true. They are willing to pay to get in. And there are smugglers anxious to accept the pay, in defiance of Federal law.

    Most of these contrabands are chronic failures and malcontents in their homelands. They are natural radicals. They are prime material for whatever agitation and dissension is afoot. Especially are they receptive to the propaganda of Communism. To combat them Uncle Sam relies almost solely on his too few guardians called the Border Patrol. The average "mountie" along the Rio Grande has 10 times the excitement and drama seen by the average Royal Canadian Mountie, notwithstanding the latter gentlemen's crimson uniform and volunteer press agents.

    The deficiency in the United States Border Patrol is that of numbers and equipment. It is miraculous that these officers have done as well as they have, for after all there are only 24 possible working hours even in a strong he-man officer's day. One recent instance will illustrate the point.

    Along one stretch of border, about 100 miles, five immigration officers — no more — were supposed to keep careful watch for a time. In one night twelve crossings were attempted, with probably half a dozen or more aliens in each group, under armed escort.

    It is true that the typical Border Patrolman with his pistol can shoot a tick off a cow at 200 yards, figuratively speaking, but even he cannot be omnipresent. Those five officers each had an average of twenty miles—rugged, waterless, thorny, desert miles—to cover. Between them they had two automobiles, one a truck; and eight horses, one with colt.

    Moreover, two of the crossings were effected in airplanes, for many dealers in human contraband are efficient and modern. The night carried no moon, and that added zest, no doubt, to the merry game of hide and seek. In spite of all that, eight of the attempts were thwarted and 22 arrests were made.

    Intercepting the' smugglers is largely a matter of outguessing them. Leaders in the Immigration and Naturalization Service of the Southwest, having spent years and frequently decades in the outdoors there, become so acquainted with the terrain and with the habits of foreigners that they can simply lie in wait.

    Two patrolmen, armed with automatic rifles, pistols and night flares, sometimes roundup a dozen aliens on one sally. The officers do not guarantee, however, that the aliens intercepted will all be alive.

    Probably the classic instance of this sort is that of Tom Threepersons, a huge man of Cherokee Indian blood, who served Uncle Sam for a time around El Paso, Texas. Tom really could shoot a tick off a cow, literally (although not at 200 yards). It was said, too, that he could smell smugglers as a dog smells birds.

    In any event, he had a hunch one midnight that something was stirring along the river and he went to a favored crossing spot with a friend. The Rio Grande there was not deep, Men could wade it safely in dry season. When Tom and his partner got there a group of aliens was already starting into the water from the Mexican side. Tom could see them plainly with his field glasses.

    "You better hustle back for help," whispered Tom's friend. "I'll hide here and watch which way they go."

    "Nope. You go, I'll watch." Tom was insistent. Soon he was alone.

    He crept to the shadows of a cottonwood tree near the American bank of the river. In a minute or two he was able to count sixteen 'men. Some of them carried sacks of contraband liquor, but they, too, were aliens, it developed later.

    Tom felt it as a personal affront that this many undesirables should try to sneak into his country, especially in his service zone. When they reached dry land he poked a pistol around each side of his cottonwood, straddling the tree with his arms.

    "Halt where you are!" he called, in Spanish. "You're under arrest."

    But the foreigners were disposed to argue about it, with bullets rather than words. A machine gun across the river picked up their side of the argument, too; but it proved to be ineffective in the darkness.

    Nobody will ever know just how many shots were fired, or exactly everything that happened. Cherokee Tom never was given to much conversation. His official reports were always meagre. The fact remains that he walked later that night into the county jail, herding five dazed Mexicans. Next day it was necessary to bury eleven more.

     

    Thanks – a great story, and one that deserves to be retold repeatedly!

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Thank you. Best of all, officers like Tom Threepersons were treated like the heroes they were. Today he'd get the Ramos and Compean treatment.
  117. Why does Steve Sailer keep comparing Israel to the U.S on this issue? The two countries are not comparable at all. Putting aside the fact that the Israeli fence *is* pseudo-Nazi, at least the Israelis have a real justification for it: they are a Jewish state surrounded, for the most part, by hostile Muslim states that want to annihilate them. Every Arab who crosses the border into Israel is a potential terrorist.

    Conversely, the majority of people crossing the U.S border are not dangerous. Sure, there are a few criminals, but the vast majority are peaceful laborers who just want to work and have a better life. While stopping criminals from crossing is important, their numbers and the dangers they represent do not justify a military-style electrified fence with heavily armed soldiers

    Does Steve Sailer realize just how cretinous his argument for building an Israeli-like securiity apparatus by equating America’s immigration problems to Israel’s geopolitical situation is? This is cretinously stupid.

    • Troll: CK
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Why are you so Islamophobic, Nick?
    , @Jasper Been
    I care about the peaceful laborers in my country, those in other countries quite a bit less. But nice try, neocon lite.
    , @Aaron Gross
    The article was clearly about Israel's border with Egypt, not its other borders. That border is mostly about economic migrants ("refugees") from Africa, not terrorists.

    That's why there was no effective barrier there until the occurrence of sometimes violent anti-migrant demonstrations in south Tel Aviv. Contra Steve Sailer, the Israeli government hadn't been listening to its citizens' complaints against migrants either.
    , @CK
    Israel has its friends to the west Jordan, the east Egypt, the south Saudi Arabia. No one is trying to enter Israel from the north where its " enemies " are.
    Saudi Arabia has built its fence along its border with Iraq and stops at its borders with Jordan and Kuwait. So the Sauds wish to keep the ISIS types from visiting while they keep on paying them to try to destroy Syria and Iraq.
    Every Mexican that crosses the US border illegally and takes yet another job from an American citizen is a criminal no matter how much they "just want to steal what isn't theirs."
    The Mexican immigrants can walk across and walk back whenever it suits them. They come to sponge. The 0ld Ellis Island immigrants did not have the luxury of going home when ever it suited them.
    Two problems can have the same solution. Israel appears to be doing quite well applying that solution to their situation. The solution will be applied to ours to our benefit.
  118. @Bill Jones
    The Saudi one looks good to me.
    http://ijr.com/2015/01/233628-saudi-arabia-anti-isis-wall/

    At the end of the day it comes down to the willingness to shoot the first few illegals every day for a month.

    When it comes to keeping out unwanted migrants, you have to hand it to the mad tribal Middle Easterners, whether Israeli or Saudi. We could learn a thing or two from them.

  119. @Jack D
    That’s about $2.5 million per mile. A very effective fence....It’s basically built with rebar and razor wire,”

    This will never fly in America. Not enough opportunities for graft. We need around 700 more miles of fence, so that's less than $2 billion. The F-35 program will cost $1.5 TRILLION. $2 billion is not enough to excite any politicians. We need a "high tech" fence that costs AT LEAST $1 billion per mile like a NY subway. It should be made of carbon fiber and unobtanium as showcase of American technological prowess. It should be invisible on radar. Maybe it should be invisible period.

    This will never fly in America. Not enough opportunities for graft. We need around 700 more miles of fence, so that’s less than $2 billion. The F-35 program will cost $1.5 TRILLION. $2 billion is not enough to excite any politicians.

    This will be the first test of Trump’s political and managerial skill. If he can build the fence for less than $10 billion, before the end of his first term, he will pass the test.

    I’m looking forward to the squirming discomfort of those who said it was impossible, impractical, hideously expensive, not “who we are”, and so on. People all over the world will realise that it is entirely possible to halt unwelcome mass migration if we choose to do so.

  120. @Daniel Chieh
    I think the wall is a good to great idea. I object to random additions like "100 feet of sensors" which would probably just bloat up the project and remind me terribly of the F-35 project. I personally feel that going after enforcement of employers is just as important, if not more so, than a physical barrier.

    It’s important to create something that isn’t a mere Maginot Line that the invaders—ahem, illegals—circumvent. In WWII, it was by going around; here it would be by tunneling under.

    It’s well-documented that illegals have built numerous tunnels under the existing fences along our southern border. The wall needs to structurally take care of this problem—-i.e. be built with such deep foundations and such hardened materials that tunneling through would be very difficult and cause those above ground to notice.

    Constantinople had enemies trying to tunnel through, but such folks never succeeded. Whatever worked there to prevent tunneling should be employed now. Any new-fangled “sensors” would be nice, but the old ways would be best—and long-term way more cost effective.

    • Replies: @CK
    Cheap listening devices deployed every quarter of a mile will stop the tunnelling.
    Triangulate the tunnel, counter bore and boom closed tunnel.
  121. @Harry Baldwin
    You mention Col. Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Skelton as fabled Border Patrolmen, but let's not forget Tom Threepersons, featured in this excerpt from the San Antonio Light, July 25, 1937, titled "2,000 Miles of Trouble and Thrills for U.S.--Mexican Border Patrol."

    It is trite but true that this country is still the most attractive in the world for the individual who toils, and thousands of Mexicans—not to mention the Chinese, Japanese, Russians and others—are aware that it is true. They are willing to pay to get in. And there are smugglers anxious to accept the pay, in defiance of Federal law.

    Most of these contrabands are chronic failures and malcontents in their homelands. They are natural radicals. They are prime material for whatever agitation and dissension is afoot. Especially are they receptive to the propaganda of Communism. To combat them Uncle Sam relies almost solely on his too few guardians called the Border Patrol. The average "mountie" along the Rio Grande has 10 times the excitement and drama seen by the average Royal Canadian Mountie, notwithstanding the latter gentlemen's crimson uniform and volunteer press agents.

    The deficiency in the United States Border Patrol is that of numbers and equipment. It is miraculous that these officers have done as well as they have, for after all there are only 24 possible working hours even in a strong he-man officer's day. One recent instance will illustrate the point.

    Along one stretch of border, about 100 miles, five immigration officers — no more — were supposed to keep careful watch for a time. In one night twelve crossings were attempted, with probably half a dozen or more aliens in each group, under armed escort.

    It is true that the typical Border Patrolman with his pistol can shoot a tick off a cow at 200 yards, figuratively speaking, but even he cannot be omnipresent. Those five officers each had an average of twenty miles—rugged, waterless, thorny, desert miles—to cover. Between them they had two automobiles, one a truck; and eight horses, one with colt.

    Moreover, two of the crossings were effected in airplanes, for many dealers in human contraband are efficient and modern. The night carried no moon, and that added zest, no doubt, to the merry game of hide and seek. In spite of all that, eight of the attempts were thwarted and 22 arrests were made.

    Intercepting the' smugglers is largely a matter of outguessing them. Leaders in the Immigration and Naturalization Service of the Southwest, having spent years and frequently decades in the outdoors there, become so acquainted with the terrain and with the habits of foreigners that they can simply lie in wait.

    Two patrolmen, armed with automatic rifles, pistols and night flares, sometimes roundup a dozen aliens on one sally. The officers do not guarantee, however, that the aliens intercepted will all be alive.

    Probably the classic instance of this sort is that of Tom Threepersons, a huge man of Cherokee Indian blood, who served Uncle Sam for a time around El Paso, Texas. Tom really could shoot a tick off a cow, literally (although not at 200 yards). It was said, too, that he could smell smugglers as a dog smells birds.

    In any event, he had a hunch one midnight that something was stirring along the river and he went to a favored crossing spot with a friend. The Rio Grande there was not deep, Men could wade it safely in dry season. When Tom and his partner got there a group of aliens was already starting into the water from the Mexican side. Tom could see them plainly with his field glasses.

    "You better hustle back for help," whispered Tom's friend. "I'll hide here and watch which way they go."

    "Nope. You go, I'll watch." Tom was insistent. Soon he was alone.

    He crept to the shadows of a cottonwood tree near the American bank of the river. In a minute or two he was able to count sixteen 'men. Some of them carried sacks of contraband liquor, but they, too, were aliens, it developed later.

    Tom felt it as a personal affront that this many undesirables should try to sneak into his country, especially in his service zone. When they reached dry land he poked a pistol around each side of his cottonwood, straddling the tree with his arms.

    "Halt where you are!" he called, in Spanish. "You're under arrest."

    But the foreigners were disposed to argue about it, with bullets rather than words. A machine gun across the river picked up their side of the argument, too; but it proved to be ineffective in the darkness.

    Nobody will ever know just how many shots were fired, or exactly everything that happened. Cherokee Tom never was given to much conversation. His official reports were always meagre. The fact remains that he walked later that night into the county jail, herding five dazed Mexicans. Next day it was necessary to bury eleven more.

     

    Wow — that was really entertaining and just overall awesome!

    Tom really could shoot a tick off a cow, literally (although not at 200 yards).

    LOL!!!!!

  122. @Prof. Woland
    How hard would it be for the CIA to infiltrate the Mexican cartels? With our electronic eavesdropping capability and Mexican's natural inability to stop corruption, we probably would know when and where the tunnels will be before they did. Every time we find one, leak it out that some unwitting cartel member tipped off the Americanos and you will have them shooting and cutting each others heads in a heart beat. Hell, the Mexicans are so corrupt, we could probably bribe them to build tunnels to take back their citizens back.

    Human intelligence and signals intelligence are two very different things. I doubt the CIA has that many Spanish-speaking agents.

  123. @Frau Katze
    Face it: Hitler was a loser and a stupid one at that.

    German Jews were well educated and tended to think of themselves as proud Germans.

    Why people continue to obsess over Jews after the the unmitigated disaster Hitler brought upon the German gentiles is a mystery to me.

    You couldn't have designed someone worse.

    There are a metric ton of lefty Jews pushing leftism, basically. Notice in places like England where the Jewish population is less lopsidedly lefty (a slim majority actually went for Brexit) the far right is less aggressively anti-Semitic.

    I do agree Hitler blew it, big time. His big mistake, IMHO, was trying to run a racially pure empire; forget the Jews, it kept him from making various Slavs a better offer, especially considering that the alternative was frickin’ Stalin. Empires are multi-ethnic; you have to give the various groups you’re trying to conquer a stake in the game, and they have to be better off than they were under the last ruler. It’s how all the empires of the ancient world worked. We just got lucky in that the Native Americans couldn’t put up much of a fight, and we were able to fill the frontier with Americans.

    • Replies: @Sam Haysom
    Ernest Nolte's theory was that Hitler had identified communism as the existential threat to Germany. In Hitler's mind the Jews and communism where intimately connected and as such the Holocaust emerged from this conflation of the two in Hitler's Mind.
  124. @Crawfurdmuir
    I periodically drive a stretch of freeway that has pre-cast concrete barriers on either side. They appear to be at least 30 feet tall, and look substantial. Most of them were erected after the freeways were built, in response to noise-abatement regulations.

    It should not be difficult to use similar barriers as border walls. Of course they will have to be supplemented with active law enforcement. The Border Patrol used, at least, to field championship pistol teams. Col. Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Skelton were all at one time Border Patrolmen, and they had plenty of opportunity to exercise their skills on the job. We need to recruit similar men today and give them similar rules of engagement to those that prevailed in the heyday of Askins et al.

    Hesco barriers like this:

    Are popular in the military world. It’s basically a box that you fill up with dirt using a front loader. They’re good at stopping vehicles and can be put up fast. The bases built with them look like crusader forts. Hesco barriers can be combined with concertina wire and, of course, sensors. Dunno how the cost compares to precast concrete walls, plus the cost of moving the walls to the site. Maybe the Hescos are less vulnerable to the vandalism that will doubtless occur. The alligator-filled moat will also discourage vandalism.

    Any wall or obstacle is really just a way to force movement into choke points or to delay the invader long enough for guards to reach the area.

  125. @Nick Diaz
    Why does Steve Sailer keep comparing Israel to the U.S on this issue? The two countries are not comparable at all. Putting aside the fact that the Israeli fence *is* pseudo-Nazi, at least the Israelis have a real justification for it: they are a Jewish state surrounded, for the most part, by hostile Muslim states that want to annihilate them. Every Arab who crosses the border into Israel is a potential terrorist.

    Conversely, the majority of people crossing the U.S border are not dangerous. Sure, there are a few criminals, but the vast majority are peaceful laborers who just want to work and have a better life. While stopping criminals from crossing is important, their numbers and the dangers they represent do not justify a military-style electrified fence with heavily armed soldiers

    Does Steve Sailer realize just how cretinous his argument for building an Israeli-like securiity apparatus by equating America's immigration problems to Israel's geopolitical situation is? This is cretinously stupid.

    Why are you so Islamophobic, Nick?

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    Islamophobia is a condition you pick up from watching Islamic asshats blow shit up and kill people in the name of Islam. It's a feature, not a problem. We could use lots of it throughout law enforcement and our politics. You cannot have enough. Never.
  126. I’m looking forward to the graffiti. You can’t put graffiti on re-bar and razor wire. The model should be the game of thrones wall. Damn the expense. If Mexico cant be forced to pay for it the FED can just print the money.

  127. @SFG
    IMHO he's just refused to kiss Bibi's butt. I'm no fan of Hamas but Israel gets away with way too much.

    My less paranoid conspiracy theory is that Trump, like Nixon before him, has figured that you can't get all the New York Jews on your side but it pays to get some. So he'll just support Bibi in his s**tlording and have the Breitbart guys helping him out--they got him elected, after all. I suspect a lot of moderately-conservative guys don't really care about Israel one way or the other but figure it's a way to keep a lot of rich, politics-obsessed guys happy with them. And saying nice things about Israel is probably just a cost of doing business in New York, like pretending to like kielbasa in Chicago or getting drunk on St. Patty's day in Boston.

    My more paranoid conspiracy theory is that Trump, reading his copy of Hitler's speeches, figured, OK. The first thing I'm going to do different is find another group to pick on!

    And saying nice things about Israel is probably just a cost of doing business in New York, like pretending to like kielbasa in Chicago or getting drunk on St. Patty’s day in Boston.

    Just so you know Sir, we get drunk EVERY day in Boston! Then of course is the legal pot, will they pretend to like that too?

    As for Israel, it seems fairly fashionable in Liberal Jewish circles from Boston down to DC to tear down Israel over the Palestinian issues, the Israeli wall, etc. I know very, very few families who are pro-whatever-they-do Israel fans and I move between Boston and DC a fair amount of the year. I keep my trap shut with them, but THEY are all very vocal. I spent plenty of time in Israel in the military, yet interestingly, very few Jews here have ever made the trip. They ought to. Especially the Jews here that bitch about the wall THERE. They missed the festivities of the 2002-2005 Intifada period. Something about your bus and/or wedding blowing up focuses attention on the problem.

    • Replies: @SFG
    No aspersions intended against the Irish, it was more of a politically-incorrect ethnic joke about the major ethnic groups in big cities I was somewhat familiar with. You guys have worked hard here and been through more than your fair share of local persecution in the nineteenth century, leaving aside the famine, hundreds of years of British domination, and so on in the motherland.

    Anyway, your larger point is right. You don't get much of the 'mortality salience induction' that drives you to the right on the Upper West Side (or in Brookline or Newton). I suspect Israelophilia among the goyish center-right may be a sort of vicarious whitish (pseudo-European) nationalism, as people here have suggested; you've got a more-European-looking population defending themselves against Muslims. My bigger concern is whether it's good for the country. You were in the military, you might be able to speak to this more than most. I get the sense we are attracting more heat than is worth it by supporting Israel; have you actually found the alliance to be useful?

    It might be a way for non-Jews with many Jewish clients (you're dealing with a lot of wealthy Jews in New York, after all) to signal they are not anti-Semitic. March in the Israel day parade, give to Italian charities, and whatever other groups have become prominent in New York since I left. I mean, you're trying to close a deal for a building, do you really care what one bunch of people is doing to the other in a war 6000 miles away? Say nice things about the side that's selling you the building or buying it, and that's it. Are you going to tell Pat O'Brien the Irish famine wasn't a genocide when trying to buy an apartment building from him?
  128. It seems no one is discussing Mexico paying for “The Wall”. Eventually, bring enough business back here, plants, autos, all the vegetable canneries, refining, haven’t we then made Mexico pay for The Wall? And then some?

  129. Anonymous [AKA "Santa Klaus"] says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Hitler is a classic case of a politician turning his tactics into his goal. Hitler's stated goal, according to Mein Kampf and other numerous speeches, was turning all of Eastern Europe out to the Urals into a German "Wild West" which would be colonized by Germans and would turn Germany into an agriculturally self-sufficient, resource rich World Power on par with the US. What part of that plan required killing Jews? Presumably, given their unfortunate history in the Tsarist Empire, many local Jews would have been rather happy to side with Germans against Slavs (and they often did during WWI). Nor were Jews likely to compete with Germans over who was going to grab the best agricultural land in Ukraine, most Jews were quite happy turning cities like Lwow, Kiev and Vilnius into civilized interesting places that would have provided excellent markets for German agricultural and industrial products. But during his rise to power Hitler, whether out of conviction or cynicism, found it quite convenient to make German Jews his whipping boys, essentially dooming his long term project.

    This is true but it’s only half the story. The key to the puzzle is Hitler’s relations with the West.

    Hitler blamed the Jews for his wars with the Western powers – France, Britain and above all the United States. He believed that without Jewish influence over these governments he would have had a ‘free hand’ in Eastern Europe.

    In other words, the Jews of Europe were hostages to the foreign policy of the Western powers, and Hitler’s persecution of them progressively escalated in inverse proportion to his relations with those powers. (The killing reached its peak shortly after U.S. entry into the war.)

    Lots of Jews were going to die no matter what, but if the Western powers had stayed out of the war it’s likely the the casualties would have been numbered in the thousands rather than millions.

  130. Desiderius –> “Why are you so Islamophobic, Nick?”

    I am not. I am anti-terrorist. There is a difference. So your pathetic attempt at sarcasm has been noted and dismissed.

    The Gulf countries have an anti-Israeli policy. The problem is not only in the religion of those countries, but in culture and government policy. There is a Mulsim community in Nice and Marseille, France, that has been living there for some400 years, and they are some of France’s best citizens. They are peaceful, law-abiding and educated – there are a lot of Muslim doctors, lawyers and professionals in France. The problem with Muslims in the middle east is their culture.

    So what I said stands the border situations of Israel and the U.S.A are not comparable, and what you brought up is not even germaine to the discussion.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    There is a Mulsim community in Nice and Marseille, France, that has been living there for some 400 years, and they are some of France’s best citizens. They are peaceful, law-abiding and educated – there are a lot of Muslim doctors, lawyers and professionals in France. The problem with Muslims in the middle east is their culture.
     
    I agree there may be a better proxy for this problem, which is Arabic people and their cultural baggage. But Islam is inextricably tied with Arabic supremacism, and its legacy is fatalistic, clannish, Big Man cultures that produce a lot of low IQ/high time-preference young men with no value in the labor or marriage markets. Not having strong proscriptions against cousin-marriage or polygamy is very damaging to your gene pool and social structure.

    Until your Muslim doctors, lawyers and professionals and their families start a ruthless beatdown on their Wahabbists and other troublemakers, then Islam per se will continue to be a problem. The project would be equivalent to the de-Nazification of Germany--a wholesale deconstruction and reform of Islam. Do you see this happening, ever?
    , @Desiderius

    So your pathetic attempt at sarcasm has been noted and dismissed.
     
    "Dismissed" by a paragraph of defense orders of magnitude longer than my, yes, (intentionally) pathetic attack.

    As your original attack was a pathetic attempt to induce us onto the defensive. Just because you're susceptible to being played, it does not follow that we will be.

    If you'd rather get a good faith response, offer a good faith comment.
  131. @Neoconned
    A Russo-German alliance would make more sense for both parties than an Anglo American alliance where the Germans pretend they like to bee occupied by foreigners who attract foreign terrorists or to pretend they believe in free market free trade horseshit.

    I'm not familiar with Mackinder or his Homeland thesis. Thanks for the reference.

    The last Russian-German “alliance” worked out great for East Germany.

    I think it would be useful if we just acknowledged straight up that the most important goal for a large contingent of posters here is the destruction of American power. That might save us the time of wading through everyone’s fan fiction account of how that obliteration will occur.

    Only a person with no idea about history could think a Russian German alliance makes more sense than US-German alliance. Russia can’t even eschew threatening Germany with energy blackmail. How on earth do you divine the basis for a political alliance between the two countries.

  132. @SFG
    There are a metric ton of lefty Jews pushing leftism, basically. Notice in places like England where the Jewish population is less lopsidedly lefty (a slim majority actually went for Brexit) the far right is less aggressively anti-Semitic.

    I do agree Hitler blew it, big time. His big mistake, IMHO, was trying to run a racially pure empire; forget the Jews, it kept him from making various Slavs a better offer, especially considering that the alternative was frickin' Stalin. Empires are multi-ethnic; you have to give the various groups you're trying to conquer a stake in the game, and they have to be better off than they were under the last ruler. It's how all the empires of the ancient world worked. We just got lucky in that the Native Americans couldn't put up much of a fight, and we were able to fill the frontier with Americans.

    Ernest Nolte’s theory was that Hitler had identified communism as the existential threat to Germany. In Hitler’s mind the Jews and communism where intimately connected and as such the Holocaust emerged from this conflation of the two in Hitler’s Mind.

    • Replies: @CK
    There was no Jewish influence in the Bolshevik uprising was there.
    If only we could get 200 Years Together published in the USA. Funny how none of the
    NYC publishing houses will attempt that.
  133. @Neoconned
    My former manager was married to a travelling union welder with the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers.

    He went all over. Out west, Midwest etc.

    She told me working 100 hours per week he cleared $120k per year. Pretax.....

    That number is full of shit.

    My former manager was married to a travelling union welder with the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers. He went all over. Out west, Midwest etc. She told me working 100 hours per week he cleared $120k per year. Pretax…..That number is full of shit.

    Free lancers, maybe? Welding is a pisser of a job, hard work, much outdoors, some underwater and I hear the rates are at the very most 65/hour and materials. My free-lance IT and telecom services bring $105/hour (time and a half weekends and evenings), plus trip charges and materials when cables are pulled or phones added. All the work is indoors, clean offices, clean travel, little danger except for the travel. I see a lot of guys out there that work their asses off in seemingly higher-skilled jobs than I occupy, yet they can only charge half or less.

    The markets feel skewed to me, I’m not bragging or complaining, but it mystifies me that (to me) not-so-special IT and Telecommunications skills command the money they do over serious skills that require far more effort to complete the mission..

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    You might get $100 per hour for welding on offshore oil rigs deep underwater.
    , @Desiderius
    Cost-plus accounting incentives high costs, including wage rates.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    I feel you. I went from a technical job into a managerial job, and now I feel like I barely do anything but am paid even more. Its not actually all that pleasant, I keep wishing that I can be allowed to "get my hands dirty" but its prohibited.
    , @Nico
    Regardless of apparent levels of skill and craftsmanship, there is still the idea that personnel for most IT jobs must be capable of passing classes in calculus, digital logic and relational algebra. People who fit this bill are far rarer relative to demand than are people who can be taught to weld beautifully and therefore are paid more.
  134. @Desiderius
    Why are you so Islamophobic, Nick?

    Islamophobia is a condition you pick up from watching Islamic asshats blow shit up and kill people in the name of Islam. It’s a feature, not a problem. We could use lots of it throughout law enforcement and our politics. You cannot have enough. Never.

  135. Surely part of the point of the wall is to humiliate – and deservedly so – the Mexican elite that has brazenly pushed much of its own Bellcurvius population north for so many decades.

    Its been win-win for Mexico – relieve social pressures and gain remittances.

    There is also the acknowledged expectation that in time large swathes of the US will become an extension of Mexico.

    In this light should not the wall be accompanied by a pointed information campaign by the Trump administration reviewing Mexico’s extraordinary chutzpah and insolence in this matter.

    It should also quickly seek to close many of the very large number of Mexican consulates that act as invasion enablers.

    All this ultimately will be good for Mexico as a nation-state (if it can get its act together to adapt) although of course not good for Mexico’s parasitic elite.

  136. @Jim Christian

    My former manager was married to a travelling union welder with the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers. He went all over. Out west, Midwest etc. She told me working 100 hours per week he cleared $120k per year. Pretax…..That number is full of shit.
     
    Free lancers, maybe? Welding is a pisser of a job, hard work, much outdoors, some underwater and I hear the rates are at the very most 65/hour and materials. My free-lance IT and telecom services bring $105/hour (time and a half weekends and evenings), plus trip charges and materials when cables are pulled or phones added. All the work is indoors, clean offices, clean travel, little danger except for the travel. I see a lot of guys out there that work their asses off in seemingly higher-skilled jobs than I occupy, yet they can only charge half or less.

    The markets feel skewed to me, I'm not bragging or complaining, but it mystifies me that (to me) not-so-special IT and Telecommunications skills command the money they do over serious skills that require far more effort to complete the mission..

    You might get $100 per hour for welding on offshore oil rigs deep underwater.

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    My grandfather made his initial stake that he used to open his car dealership underwater welding in the Gulf.
  137. @Bill P

    Union Ironworkers make between $65 to $125 an hour.
     
    No, they don't.

    http://iwlocal1.com/Wage%20Scale%20for%202014-2015.html

    A touch out of date but union Ironworkers in northern Illinois had a +$80 an hour wage package.

    There is a premium for high work.

    With federal government prevailing (read union) wage rates this is the cost of poker.

    On the union construction sites I am familiar with the Ironworkers would call dibs on that work.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    Here's a typical, up to date northern Illinois union ironworker wage scale:

    http://www.ironworkers111.org/wage-rates.html

    As you can see, not $65-125/hr.
  138. Anonymous [AKA "Ted Webb"] says:
    @Jimi Shmendrix
    No. Completely wrong.

    Obama just reversed decades of US policy (AFTER he and his party were repudiated by the voters), by allowing the UN to redefine "settlements" (including the holy sites of Jerusalem) as illegally occupied, a subtle but significant difference that paves the way for further international interference.

    A bitch move by a lame duck, no matter how you look at it.

    There have been plenty of UNSC resolutions that have gone against Israel’s occupation, under previous Presidents. This happens to be the first one that Obama let through.

  139. @Lucas McCrudy
    The wall won’t stop drugs – Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes.

    What officials? Corrupt Mexican officials or the US officials? If it's the latter then Trump needs to crack down on them ASAP. We're not a Latin America banana republic; corruption shouldn't be given a wink, nod by an Anglo gov't that claims it respects the rule-of-law. And airplanes? Where would they land- LAX? Dallas-Fort Worth? That's where drug sniffing beagles can be deployed, among other things. The wall will help keep out the drugs Big League, Trust Me.


    Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers’ licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment

    If any state tried to ban illegals from buying cars or renting apartments the ACLU would scream bloody murder and start filing law suits left and right claiming "discrimination" (see Hazelton PA). I agree a measure like this should be taken at the fed. level, but I don't even think Trump has the cajones to take on such a fight.

    As for attending public schools, surely you've hear of Plyler v. Doe, the 1982 Supreme Court case where a 5-4 majority decreed that illegals have an unalienable right to free public education? "This is settled law!" liberals will howl. Remember CA's Prop 187 which passed w/ 59% of the vote but open borders leftists staged a mini coup d'état by getting one (1) Jimmy Carter appointed judge to annul the democratic will of the voters thus deciding the fate of the US's most populous state?

    Talking about corruption on the American Border regarding drugs, I’d like to note that Border Cintrol (not PAtrol, which is further inland and less evil) is about as corrupt as they come. And not just corrupt but cruel and evil as well.

    I have the personal investigations and analytical acuity to be trusted on this matter though the latter I will leave to your judgement and the former I don’t care to discuss.

    The disgusting wretches (many of whom are Mexican) at the American border, especially at out-of-the-way borders, rather than San Diego are so corrupt that there are government mandated signs in their back offices that are like Marlboro labels – of the Americans sort – that half-heartedly recommend not moving millions of dollars worth of drugs across.

    And to cover their own corruption, they fly fish innocent tourists into being intimidated by paid Mexicans into doing business with them.

    Also, if they have any reason to hope that you might be a drug businessman skipping out the border control middle man, they will violate every one of your constitutional rights in the off chance that you might be one of those people.

    Despite vaster powers and more opportunities for corruption, the border PAtrol are generally nicer, more honest, less Mexican and less in need of creating citizens scapegoats.

    Lest I be misunderstood, I should note that they as well do not care very much about finding illegal crossers (really. It just means boring paperwork). But they are a different sort of people than those working at the less busy borders.

    The interesting thing is that anyone attempting to sneak some small amount of an illegal substance across would have a much greater opportunity to do so at one of the busier borders.

    But the busier borders allow for much less Control corruption due to how many people they have on staff and how different people are many different lines at different times.

    Less common control points however are perfect for it.

    I think that a great way to solve much of America’s illegal drug problem would be to drone strike every one of these small border crossings and then to re-man them with a random assortment of Americans who, with one exception I suppose, do not speak Mexican.

    But first the drone strikes. Everyone hit is guaranteed to be guilty and it would send a useful message.

  140. @Crawfurdmuir
    Thanks - a great story, and one that deserves to be retold repeatedly!

    Thank you. Best of all, officers like Tom Threepersons were treated like the heroes they were. Today he’d get the Ramos and Compean treatment.

  141. @Nick Diaz
    Desiderius --> "Why are you so Islamophobic, Nick?"

    I am not. I am anti-terrorist. There is a difference. So your pathetic attempt at sarcasm has been noted and dismissed.

    The Gulf countries have an anti-Israeli policy. The problem is not only in the religion of those countries, but in culture and government policy. There is a Mulsim community in Nice and Marseille, France, that has been living there for some400 years, and they are some of France's best citizens. They are peaceful, law-abiding and educated - there are a lot of Muslim doctors, lawyers and professionals in France. The problem with Muslims in the middle east is their culture.

    So what I said stands the border situations of Israel and the U.S.A are not comparable, and what you brought up is not even germaine to the discussion.

    There is a Mulsim community in Nice and Marseille, France, that has been living there for some 400 years, and they are some of France’s best citizens. They are peaceful, law-abiding and educated – there are a lot of Muslim doctors, lawyers and professionals in France. The problem with Muslims in the middle east is their culture.

    I agree there may be a better proxy for this problem, which is Arabic people and their cultural baggage. But Islam is inextricably tied with Arabic supremacism, and its legacy is fatalistic, clannish, Big Man cultures that produce a lot of low IQ/high time-preference young men with no value in the labor or marriage markets. Not having strong proscriptions against cousin-marriage or polygamy is very damaging to your gene pool and social structure.

    Until your Muslim doctors, lawyers and professionals and their families start a ruthless beatdown on their Wahabbists and other troublemakers, then Islam per se will continue to be a problem. The project would be equivalent to the de-Nazification of Germany–a wholesale deconstruction and reform of Islam. Do you see this happening, ever?

  142. @Lord Jeff Sessions
    From Vox:

    Building a wall would represent an enormous change in the American attitude toward immigration, toward Mexico, toward its welcoming image in the rest of the world. It would have massive (and probably unanticipated) effects on immigration into and emigration out of the US, and it would very probably cost human lives.

    Mexico is in really rough shape right now. The country is facing nationwide protests (and occasional outbreaks of violence) because gas prices are rising and the peso is falling — and the peso is falling because of speculation about what’s going to happen under a Trump administration.

    Mexico’s government understands that it needs good relations with the US. President Enrique Peña Nieto just brought back Luis Videgaray, the former finance minister who arranged for Trump to visit Mexico during the campaign (and all but got sacked for it), to serve as foreign minister.

    Trump’s administration-in-waiting thinks it can work with Videgaray, according to Costa. They know they have the upper hand. Mexico knows that too. And both sides know that moving to build a wall will put huge pressure on Mexico. Because they know that who pays for the wall is ultimately less important, and has less of an impact, than the fact that a wall exists. ...

    The incoming administration, though, is not proposing to build a metaphor. It’s proposing a physical barrier. And physical barriers have massive policy consequences. The buildup of border security in the late 1990s and 2000s led millions of unauthorized immigrants to settle in the US; hundreds of people have died trying to avoid fenced-off regions of the border by crossing inhospitable desert instead.

    The implications of the wall — demographic, environmental, symbolic — are huge. ...
     

    The liberal talking points on immigration are getting more and more absurd. They don't even have a real argument why we shouldn't build a wall. Their entire case is essentially "wow, just wow".

    I agree with you. And the USA no longer needs to have a “welcoming image.” There are a lot better and more important images for this country to project.

  143. @Nick Diaz
    Why does Steve Sailer keep comparing Israel to the U.S on this issue? The two countries are not comparable at all. Putting aside the fact that the Israeli fence *is* pseudo-Nazi, at least the Israelis have a real justification for it: they are a Jewish state surrounded, for the most part, by hostile Muslim states that want to annihilate them. Every Arab who crosses the border into Israel is a potential terrorist.

    Conversely, the majority of people crossing the U.S border are not dangerous. Sure, there are a few criminals, but the vast majority are peaceful laborers who just want to work and have a better life. While stopping criminals from crossing is important, their numbers and the dangers they represent do not justify a military-style electrified fence with heavily armed soldiers

    Does Steve Sailer realize just how cretinous his argument for building an Israeli-like securiity apparatus by equating America's immigration problems to Israel's geopolitical situation is? This is cretinously stupid.

    I care about the peaceful laborers in my country, those in other countries quite a bit less. But nice try, neocon lite.

  144. @Jim Christian

    And saying nice things about Israel is probably just a cost of doing business in New York, like pretending to like kielbasa in Chicago or getting drunk on St. Patty’s day in Boston.
     
    Just so you know Sir, we get drunk EVERY day in Boston! Then of course is the legal pot, will they pretend to like that too?

    As for Israel, it seems fairly fashionable in Liberal Jewish circles from Boston down to DC to tear down Israel over the Palestinian issues, the Israeli wall, etc. I know very, very few families who are pro-whatever-they-do Israel fans and I move between Boston and DC a fair amount of the year. I keep my trap shut with them, but THEY are all very vocal. I spent plenty of time in Israel in the military, yet interestingly, very few Jews here have ever made the trip. They ought to. Especially the Jews here that bitch about the wall THERE. They missed the festivities of the 2002-2005 Intifada period. Something about your bus and/or wedding blowing up focuses attention on the problem.

    No aspersions intended against the Irish, it was more of a politically-incorrect ethnic joke about the major ethnic groups in big cities I was somewhat familiar with. You guys have worked hard here and been through more than your fair share of local persecution in the nineteenth century, leaving aside the famine, hundreds of years of British domination, and so on in the motherland.

    Anyway, your larger point is right. You don’t get much of the ‘mortality salience induction’ that drives you to the right on the Upper West Side (or in Brookline or Newton). I suspect Israelophilia among the goyish center-right may be a sort of vicarious whitish (pseudo-European) nationalism, as people here have suggested; you’ve got a more-European-looking population defending themselves against Muslims. My bigger concern is whether it’s good for the country. You were in the military, you might be able to speak to this more than most. I get the sense we are attracting more heat than is worth it by supporting Israel; have you actually found the alliance to be useful?

    It might be a way for non-Jews with many Jewish clients (you’re dealing with a lot of wealthy Jews in New York, after all) to signal they are not anti-Semitic. March in the Israel day parade, give to Italian charities, and whatever other groups have become prominent in New York since I left. I mean, you’re trying to close a deal for a building, do you really care what one bunch of people is doing to the other in a war 6000 miles away? Say nice things about the side that’s selling you the building or buying it, and that’s it. Are you going to tell Pat O’Brien the Irish famine wasn’t a genocide when trying to buy an apartment building from him?

  145. @Faraday's Bobcat
    The Saturn V launch vehicle was welded together by robots.

    US submarines are welded by robots as are most cars. It is one thing robots do really well.

  146. @Frau Katze
    Why are so many commenters saying "a fence won't solve all problems" so we might as well not bother but just sit around and whine about everything.

    It's a start, and many commenters have other constructive suggestions. It's also a powerful symbol.

    What's the alternative?

    Confucious say, “A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step”.

  147. @Prof. Woland
    How hard would it be for the CIA to infiltrate the Mexican cartels? With our electronic eavesdropping capability and Mexican's natural inability to stop corruption, we probably would know when and where the tunnels will be before they did. Every time we find one, leak it out that some unwitting cartel member tipped off the Americanos and you will have them shooting and cutting each others heads in a heart beat. Hell, the Mexicans are so corrupt, we could probably bribe them to build tunnels to take back their citizens back.

    Someone made the crack that a job in the CIA generally does not involve chronic diarrhea in a third world s******e. An air conditioned office in Langley is so much more pleasant.

  148. @Momus
    Alligators? Really?

    I don’t see any problem with alligators; as long as they are properly e-verified….

    Nobody’s complaining about TSA hiring primates from Somalia.

  149. @Nick Diaz
    Why does Steve Sailer keep comparing Israel to the U.S on this issue? The two countries are not comparable at all. Putting aside the fact that the Israeli fence *is* pseudo-Nazi, at least the Israelis have a real justification for it: they are a Jewish state surrounded, for the most part, by hostile Muslim states that want to annihilate them. Every Arab who crosses the border into Israel is a potential terrorist.

    Conversely, the majority of people crossing the U.S border are not dangerous. Sure, there are a few criminals, but the vast majority are peaceful laborers who just want to work and have a better life. While stopping criminals from crossing is important, their numbers and the dangers they represent do not justify a military-style electrified fence with heavily armed soldiers

    Does Steve Sailer realize just how cretinous his argument for building an Israeli-like securiity apparatus by equating America's immigration problems to Israel's geopolitical situation is? This is cretinously stupid.

    The article was clearly about Israel’s border with Egypt, not its other borders. That border is mostly about economic migrants (“refugees”) from Africa, not terrorists.

    That’s why there was no effective barrier there until the occurrence of sometimes violent anti-migrant demonstrations in south Tel Aviv. Contra Steve Sailer, the Israeli government hadn’t been listening to its citizens’ complaints against migrants either.

  150. @Nick Diaz
    Desiderius --> "Why are you so Islamophobic, Nick?"

    I am not. I am anti-terrorist. There is a difference. So your pathetic attempt at sarcasm has been noted and dismissed.

    The Gulf countries have an anti-Israeli policy. The problem is not only in the religion of those countries, but in culture and government policy. There is a Mulsim community in Nice and Marseille, France, that has been living there for some400 years, and they are some of France's best citizens. They are peaceful, law-abiding and educated - there are a lot of Muslim doctors, lawyers and professionals in France. The problem with Muslims in the middle east is their culture.

    So what I said stands the border situations of Israel and the U.S.A are not comparable, and what you brought up is not even germaine to the discussion.

    So your pathetic attempt at sarcasm has been noted and dismissed.

    “Dismissed” by a paragraph of defense orders of magnitude longer than my, yes, (intentionally) pathetic attack.

    As your original attack was a pathetic attempt to induce us onto the defensive. Just because you’re susceptible to being played, it does not follow that we will be.

    If you’d rather get a good faith response, offer a good faith comment.

  151. @bomag

    The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work.
     
    Interesting phrasing. I've seen many show up; try to find work; not find it; go on welfare.

    Let us stop with the pity stories regarding immigrants.

    “Interesting phrasing. I’ve seen many show up; try to find work; not find it; go on welfare.

    Let us stop with the pity stories regarding immigrants.”

    The more common scenario:

    They show up, find work under the table, pretend they can’t find work, go on welfare, impregnate their senoritas, drop a few anchor babies, and now qualify for tons more welfare.

    Their cheap undocumented labor is ten times offset by foodstamps, TANF, medical care, daycare, public schooling (i.e., daycare for teenagers), SSI, and inevitable incarceration costs.

    Mexicants are a net drain on White America.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  152. @Steve Sailer
    You might get $100 per hour for welding on offshore oil rigs deep underwater.

    My grandfather made his initial stake that he used to open his car dealership underwater welding in the Gulf.

  153. @Hippopotamusdrome

    You know who also had god win hunting guardsmen eager to machine-gun whatever got too close to barbed wire fence!?

    Those who don’t own History Departments are destined to be on a permanent SPLC shitlist.

  154. • Replies: @Prof. Woland
    A secure fence along the US-Mexico border will trigger a nasty turf war between the various Mexican cartels because they will be competing over a shrinking number of smuggling routes. And if Trump really wants to stick a knife in the Mexicans, he will push to legalize Marijuana. That would leave the hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin, and crack, all of which are lucrative but carry harsher penalties. If the fence is good enough, we might even see the drugs come in by boat through Florida like back in the 1970s.
  155. @Jim Christian

    My former manager was married to a travelling union welder with the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers. He went all over. Out west, Midwest etc. She told me working 100 hours per week he cleared $120k per year. Pretax…..That number is full of shit.
     
    Free lancers, maybe? Welding is a pisser of a job, hard work, much outdoors, some underwater and I hear the rates are at the very most 65/hour and materials. My free-lance IT and telecom services bring $105/hour (time and a half weekends and evenings), plus trip charges and materials when cables are pulled or phones added. All the work is indoors, clean offices, clean travel, little danger except for the travel. I see a lot of guys out there that work their asses off in seemingly higher-skilled jobs than I occupy, yet they can only charge half or less.

    The markets feel skewed to me, I'm not bragging or complaining, but it mystifies me that (to me) not-so-special IT and Telecommunications skills command the money they do over serious skills that require far more effort to complete the mission..

    Cost-plus accounting incentives high costs, including wage rates.

  156. @Jim Christian

    My former manager was married to a travelling union welder with the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers. He went all over. Out west, Midwest etc. She told me working 100 hours per week he cleared $120k per year. Pretax…..That number is full of shit.
     
    Free lancers, maybe? Welding is a pisser of a job, hard work, much outdoors, some underwater and I hear the rates are at the very most 65/hour and materials. My free-lance IT and telecom services bring $105/hour (time and a half weekends and evenings), plus trip charges and materials when cables are pulled or phones added. All the work is indoors, clean offices, clean travel, little danger except for the travel. I see a lot of guys out there that work their asses off in seemingly higher-skilled jobs than I occupy, yet they can only charge half or less.

    The markets feel skewed to me, I'm not bragging or complaining, but it mystifies me that (to me) not-so-special IT and Telecommunications skills command the money they do over serious skills that require far more effort to complete the mission..

    I feel you. I went from a technical job into a managerial job, and now I feel like I barely do anything but am paid even more. Its not actually all that pleasant, I keep wishing that I can be allowed to “get my hands dirty” but its prohibited.

    • Replies: @SFG
    You wouldn't be the first techie in the world to have this feeling. The one thing I have noticed is they seem a lot more willing to keep old managers around--they love to fire old techies, thinking they're overpaid. It really hurts the company, because they know a lot, but they're often too far away from the technical side, or figure they'll be somewhere else, to care.

    YMMV and IMHO, of course.
    , @cthulhu
    I refuse to go into management despite off-and-on pressure from my managers to take the plunge, but fortunately my technical chops and experience are still in demand and I can get away with staying technical. And my employer is enlightened enough to realize that they need a certain number of crusty old farts around to keep even the sharp kids from making mistakes that they don't teach you about in school.
  157. While a wall is good, I hope people will persuade Trump to enact some sort of E-Verify. That is the most important thing to stop immigration. If people can’t get housing or jobs due to laws denying illegals those things they will leave and stop coming.

  158. @Boomstick
    Sequentially apply several anti-border jumping measures.

    1) To begin with just some Hesco barriers to stop vehicles would be a good start. It's a five foot tall cardboard and chain link box filled with dirt. It can easily be climbed over, but the point is to stop and channelize vehicles.

    2) Barbed wire and chain link fence with sensors and a roving patrol

    3) E-Verify, deportation from interior cities

    5) Forfeit any earnings if discovered and deported

    6) Land mines and alligator-filled moat

    We'll worry about the Canadian border if it becomes a problem. It likely won't; the issue is masses of Central Americans and Mexicans using low-tech methods to cross the border. If they're required to get to Canada first that's not such a low-tech solution and the number of illegals will drop drastically.

    The Saudis, of all people, seem to have the right idea.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/11344116/Revealed-Saudi-Arabias-Great-Wall-to-keep-out-Isil.html

    I imagine they’ll just leave the bodies to rot.

    I would.

  159. @Crawfurdmuir
    I periodically drive a stretch of freeway that has pre-cast concrete barriers on either side. They appear to be at least 30 feet tall, and look substantial. Most of them were erected after the freeways were built, in response to noise-abatement regulations.

    It should not be difficult to use similar barriers as border walls. Of course they will have to be supplemented with active law enforcement. The Border Patrol used, at least, to field championship pistol teams. Col. Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Skelton were all at one time Border Patrolmen, and they had plenty of opportunity to exercise their skills on the job. We need to recruit similar men today and give them similar rules of engagement to those that prevailed in the heyday of Askins et al.

    Crawfurdmiur:

    The operational definition of the Border Patrol at one time was “Shoot First and Ask Questions Later.” For evidence of this note later replies to your post.

  160. @Daniel Chieh
    I feel you. I went from a technical job into a managerial job, and now I feel like I barely do anything but am paid even more. Its not actually all that pleasant, I keep wishing that I can be allowed to "get my hands dirty" but its prohibited.

    You wouldn’t be the first techie in the world to have this feeling. The one thing I have noticed is they seem a lot more willing to keep old managers around–they love to fire old techies, thinking they’re overpaid. It really hurts the company, because they know a lot, but they’re often too far away from the technical side, or figure they’ll be somewhere else, to care.

    YMMV and IMHO, of course.

  161. @Hodag
    http://iwlocal1.com/Wage%20Scale%20for%202014-2015.html

    A touch out of date but union Ironworkers in northern Illinois had a +$80 an hour wage package.

    There is a premium for high work.

    With federal government prevailing (read union) wage rates this is the cost of poker.

    On the union construction sites I am familiar with the Ironworkers would call dibs on that work.

    Here’s a typical, up to date northern Illinois union ironworker wage scale:

    http://www.ironworkers111.org/wage-rates.html

    As you can see, not $65-125/hr.

  162. Why does Steve Sailer keep comparing Israel to the U.S on this issue? The two countries are not comparable at all. Putting aside the fact that the Israeli fence *is* pseudo-Nazi,

    I’d say Israel is quasi-Nazi, not pseudo-Nazi at all.

    at least the Israelis have a real justification for it: they are a Jewish state surrounded, for the most part, by hostile Muslim states that want to annihilate them. Every Arab who crosses the border into Israel is a potential terrorist.

    It’s interesting, how quickly leftists jettison their supposedly cherished beliefs, the second they hear the Jewish purse jingling.

    I mean, this is Nick Diaz we’re talking about. This is the guy who has made his name repeating over and over, with spergish stubbornness, that only a tiny minority of Muslim immigrants to the west commit acts of terrorism there. You can tell that Nick Diaz that every Muslim immigrant to the West is a potential terrorist (and you’d be right – every human being this side of a coma is a potential terrorist) as many times as you like, it will have no effect; he will just keep repeating that only a tiny fraction of one percent of Muslim immigrants ever commits an act of terrorism. This conversation played out many times, and each time, Nick had no time whatsoever for the argument that Muslim immigrants are potential terrorists.

    But when it comes to Israel, suddenly the situation changes. It’s funny, how often that is the case. In the case of Israel, Nick Diaz…Nick Diaz…says “every Arab who crosses the border into Israel is a potential terrorist.”

    Who can explain this sudden change in logic, the sudden reversal of polarity, that occurs somewhere over the Atlantic, between DC and Tel Aviv? Who knows? Maybe it isn’t Nick Diaz at all. Maybe it’s (((Nick Diaz))). In any case, it’s astounding to watch leftists abase themselves for Jews (and Jewish leftists debase their supposed leftism out of ethnocentrism) in this way.

  163. @Jim Christian

    My former manager was married to a travelling union welder with the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers. He went all over. Out west, Midwest etc. She told me working 100 hours per week he cleared $120k per year. Pretax…..That number is full of shit.
     
    Free lancers, maybe? Welding is a pisser of a job, hard work, much outdoors, some underwater and I hear the rates are at the very most 65/hour and materials. My free-lance IT and telecom services bring $105/hour (time and a half weekends and evenings), plus trip charges and materials when cables are pulled or phones added. All the work is indoors, clean offices, clean travel, little danger except for the travel. I see a lot of guys out there that work their asses off in seemingly higher-skilled jobs than I occupy, yet they can only charge half or less.

    The markets feel skewed to me, I'm not bragging or complaining, but it mystifies me that (to me) not-so-special IT and Telecommunications skills command the money they do over serious skills that require far more effort to complete the mission..

    Regardless of apparent levels of skill and craftsmanship, there is still the idea that personnel for most IT jobs must be capable of passing classes in calculus, digital logic and relational algebra. People who fit this bill are far rarer relative to demand than are people who can be taught to weld beautifully and therefore are paid more.

    • Replies: @anon
    But I thought the received wisdom is that there are two billion people on the other side of the globe with such skills and that is why IT folks here are starving.
    , @Jim Christian
    Heh, I am possessed of none of those skills. No math, a couple of years community college, started at the breakup of the Bells and that's it. Skills limited to comm skills, a minor in literacy and a few principles thrown in from working on A-6s in the Navy, playing shade tree mechanic, like that. I passed the Master's electrician's license test so I could pull low-voltage permits back in DC, but I'm no electrician. Good stuff to know, nonetheless.

    That's it. Best part is I only get my hands a little dirty pulling data wiring, but that's extra. Lots of broads work in these offices, work is a target-rich environment when it's someone ELSE'S office.
  164. @Neoconned
    I tried getting a welding job at both of Northrop Grummans old naval shipyards in New Orleans and Mississippi. Both shipyards have welders represented by different unions but mainly the boilermaker union.

    FIRST CLASS union welders with 5 plus years experiece of professional craft/trade knowledge there make $17-23 per hour based on seniorty, amount of time on the job, etc.

    In California welders make about 40$/hour in a welder craft union or a boilermaker union.

    NO WELDERS make $100/hour anywhere in this country unless they have side investments in the stock markets or something.

    I dunno where that guy got that number but he's full of shit. I know in Houston and Austin that welders make$25-30 per hr.....that poster is full of bullshit.

    He may be talking about specialty welding skills like TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas welding) or Plasma Arc Welding. Not all welds are equal; If you are working on special metal welding for a military or aerospace contractor, I am sure you can make a lot more than as a commercial welder as you are protected from international competition.

  165. @Harry Baldwin
    We really need to get that wall up before Mexico collapses:
    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/01/06/its-beginning-economic-micro-riots-erupt-in-mexico/#more-126722

    A secure fence along the US-Mexico border will trigger a nasty turf war between the various Mexican cartels because they will be competing over a shrinking number of smuggling routes. And if Trump really wants to stick a knife in the Mexicans, he will push to legalize Marijuana. That would leave the hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin, and crack, all of which are lucrative but carry harsher penalties. If the fence is good enough, we might even see the drugs come in by boat through Florida like back in the 1970s.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Based on what I've read, I understand that the high-quality marijuana grown in the US has put a serious dent in the demand for the schwag from Mexico, so much so that farmers in the Sierra Madres are growing opium poppies for the heroin trade rather than marijuana. Most of the heroin in the US comes across our southern border. I've talked to people who think it comes from Afghanistan, thereby blaming our foreign policy, but Afghanistan's heroin goes to Europe and Russia.
  166. ‘Svigor’

    “I’d say Israel is quasi-Nazi, not pseudo-Nazi at all.”

    No, it’s pseudo-Nazi, as in “fake nazis”. I watched a documentary where a bunch of Israeli soldiers gloat about how the Nazi SS had the right idea in terms of racial cleansing, but did it to the wrong people and should have done it to the Arabs instead. These soldiers clearly identified with the SS and wanted to be just like them. Hence, pseudo-nazis.

    “It’s interesting, how quickly leftists jettison their supposedly cherished beliefs, the second they hear the Jewish purse jingling.”

    I mean, this is Nick Diaz we’re talking about. This is the guy who has made his name repeating over and over, with spergish stubbornness, that only a tiny minority of Muslim immigrants to the west commit acts of terrorism there. You can tell that Nick Diaz that every Muslim immigrant to the West is a potential terrorist (and you’d be right – every human being this side of a coma is a potential terrorist) as many times as you like, it will have no effect; he will just keep repeating that only a tiny fraction of one percent of Muslim immigrants ever commits an act of terrorism. This conversation played out many times, and each time, Nick had no time whatsoever for the argument that Muslim immigrants are potential terrorists.

    But when it comes to Israel, suddenly the situation changes. It’s funny, how often that is the case. In the case of Israel, Nick Diaz…Nick Diaz…says “every Arab who crosses the border into Israel is a potential terrorist.”

    I think that you are paranoid and stupid. First, there is a lot more to the poltical spectrum than “left” and “right”. I know that, to you guys, anyone who isn’t a a conservative to a “t”, from being pro-family to pro-religion is a “leftist”. But just because you think that, it does not make it so.

    Secondly, I couldn’t care less about Israel or Jews. I have openly denounced Israel for it’s treatment of Palestineans many times. I am not a Jew, nor do I have Jewish relatives.

    The reason why I stated that America’s and Israel’s border situations are not comparable is because they are not. Isreal is surrounded by hostile states that want to destroy it. The U.S is not. Is the typical Mexican that crosses the U.S border the same potential threat as an Arab that crosses into Israel…of course *not*. The typical Arab has a death wish towards Israelis’, while the average Mexican just wants to work in America.

    *Arguing for an Israeli-style border fence for America on the grounds that America faces the same border problems as Israel is a flawed argument because the border situation of both countris is not comparble.*

    “Who can explain this sudden change in logic, the sudden reversal of polarity, that occurs somewhere over the Atlantic, between DC and Tel Aviv? Who knows? Maybe it isn’t Nick Diaz at all. Maybe it’s (((Nick Diaz))). In any case, it’s astounding to watch leftists abase themselves for Jews (and Jewish leftists debase their supposed leftism out of ethnocentrism) in this way.”

    What “change” in logic…my argument is logically consistent. You are an unintelligent paranoid who literally makes things up. Saying that I changed my argument is a straw man. Show me where.

    • Replies: @Gabriel M
    On the one hand, Svigor is indeed a unintelligent paranoid who literally makes things up, on the other hand he's right that your argument is completely dumb and irrelevant not least because the particular fence in question, as has been pointed out to you many times, is to keep out non-Muslim Africans..

    That said, it's true that Africans are a lot worse than Mexicans. America is relatively fortunate in terms of the quality of third world suprlus humans it picks up.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/170447

    But I'm not sure you want to go there.
  167. @Nick Diaz
    'Svigor'

    "I’d say Israel is quasi-Nazi, not pseudo-Nazi at all."

    No, it's pseudo-Nazi, as in "fake nazis". I watched a documentary where a bunch of Israeli soldiers gloat about how the Nazi SS had the right idea in terms of racial cleansing, but did it to the wrong people and should have done it to the Arabs instead. These soldiers clearly identified with the SS and wanted to be just like them. Hence, pseudo-nazis.

    "It’s interesting, how quickly leftists jettison their supposedly cherished beliefs, the second they hear the Jewish purse jingling."

    I mean, this is Nick Diaz we’re talking about. This is the guy who has made his name repeating over and over, with spergish stubbornness, that only a tiny minority of Muslim immigrants to the west commit acts of terrorism there. You can tell that Nick Diaz that every Muslim immigrant to the West is a potential terrorist (and you’d be right – every human being this side of a coma is a potential terrorist) as many times as you like, it will have no effect; he will just keep repeating that only a tiny fraction of one percent of Muslim immigrants ever commits an act of terrorism. This conversation played out many times, and each time, Nick had no time whatsoever for the argument that Muslim immigrants are potential terrorists.

    But when it comes to Israel, suddenly the situation changes. It’s funny, how often that is the case. In the case of Israel, Nick Diaz…Nick Diaz…says “every Arab who crosses the border into Israel is a potential terrorist.”

    I think that you are paranoid and stupid. First, there is a lot more to the poltical spectrum than "left" and "right". I know that, to you guys, anyone who isn't a a conservative to a "t", from being pro-family to pro-religion is a "leftist". But just because you think that, it does not make it so.

    Secondly, I couldn't care less about Israel or Jews. I have openly denounced Israel for it's treatment of Palestineans many times. I am not a Jew, nor do I have Jewish relatives.

    The reason why I stated that America's and Israel's border situations are not comparable is because they are not. Isreal is surrounded by hostile states that want to destroy it. The U.S is not. Is the typical Mexican that crosses the U.S border the same potential threat as an Arab that crosses into Israel...of course *not*. The typical Arab has a death wish towards Israelis', while the average Mexican just wants to work in America.

    *Arguing for an Israeli-style border fence for America on the grounds that America faces the same border problems as Israel is a flawed argument because the border situation of both countris is not comparble.*

    "Who can explain this sudden change in logic, the sudden reversal of polarity, that occurs somewhere over the Atlantic, between DC and Tel Aviv? Who knows? Maybe it isn’t Nick Diaz at all. Maybe it’s (((Nick Diaz))). In any case, it’s astounding to watch leftists abase themselves for Jews (and Jewish leftists debase their supposed leftism out of ethnocentrism) in this way."

    What "change" in logic...my argument is logically consistent. You are an unintelligent paranoid who literally makes things up. Saying that I changed my argument is a straw man. Show me where.

    On the one hand, Svigor is indeed a unintelligent paranoid who literally makes things up, on the other hand he’s right that your argument is completely dumb and irrelevant not least because the particular fence in question, as has been pointed out to you many times, is to keep out non-Muslim Africans..

    That said, it’s true that Africans are a lot worse than Mexicans. America is relatively fortunate in terms of the quality of third world suprlus humans it picks up.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/170447

    But I’m not sure you want to go there.

    • Replies: @Cato
    Most of the illegal aliens in Israel are Eritrean. Many of these are Muslim.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_from_Africa_to_Israel
  168. @Prof. Woland
    A secure fence along the US-Mexico border will trigger a nasty turf war between the various Mexican cartels because they will be competing over a shrinking number of smuggling routes. And if Trump really wants to stick a knife in the Mexicans, he will push to legalize Marijuana. That would leave the hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin, and crack, all of which are lucrative but carry harsher penalties. If the fence is good enough, we might even see the drugs come in by boat through Florida like back in the 1970s.

    Based on what I’ve read, I understand that the high-quality marijuana grown in the US has put a serious dent in the demand for the schwag from Mexico, so much so that farmers in the Sierra Madres are growing opium poppies for the heroin trade rather than marijuana. Most of the heroin in the US comes across our southern border. I’ve talked to people who think it comes from Afghanistan, thereby blaming our foreign policy, but Afghanistan’s heroin goes to Europe and Russia.

  169. @Dr. X

    The “barrier” fence between Israel and Egypt was built from 2011 to 2013 after thousands of Africans surged in...
     
    A wall to keep out Africans? Africans? How racist is that? Quick, somebody call the New York Times so that they can do a front-page report on the racist Israeli fence!

    Does anyone need to be reminded that Egyptians are Africans.

  170. @Peter Akuleyev
    E-Verify does nothing about drugs, weapons, or people crossing for reasons other than finding work.

    Those are precisely the issues the wall does nothing to stop. The wall will stop poor Mexicans and Central Americans trying to find work. The wall won't stop drugs - Cartels already have tunnels in place, the money to bribe officials, and, if need be, airplanes. Weapons go from the US south for the most part, they are already easy to obtain in the US.

    The wall is an expensive symbol that will do very little other than allow Trump supporters to gloat. If you actually care about stopping immigration, rather than just about annoying liberals, than focus on penalizing workers who hire illegals. Make it impossible for illegals to get drivers' licenses, buy cars, attend public schools, rent an apartment, or do most of the things one needs to do to live long term in a foreign country. Those fixes are not glamorous, and are going to result in countless sob-stories about poor immigrants being mistreated, but that is the serious way to address the problem.

    Given Trump's history of show over substance, I am a little worried the wall is going to be more of the same. A grand symbol to placate voters while little actually changes on the ground.

    I agree, wall plus making it difficult for border-jumpers to live and work here. In addition: 1) work towards a saner interpretation of the 14th amendment; 2) reduce the power of drug cartels by legalizing the least harmful of the recreational drugs (giving people enough legal ways to get high, will reduce demand for illegal drugs).

  171. @Gabriel M
    On the one hand, Svigor is indeed a unintelligent paranoid who literally makes things up, on the other hand he's right that your argument is completely dumb and irrelevant not least because the particular fence in question, as has been pointed out to you many times, is to keep out non-Muslim Africans..

    That said, it's true that Africans are a lot worse than Mexicans. America is relatively fortunate in terms of the quality of third world suprlus humans it picks up.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/170447

    But I'm not sure you want to go there.

    Most of the illegal aliens in Israel are Eritrean. Many of these are Muslim.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_from_Africa_to_Israel

  172. @Nico
    Regardless of apparent levels of skill and craftsmanship, there is still the idea that personnel for most IT jobs must be capable of passing classes in calculus, digital logic and relational algebra. People who fit this bill are far rarer relative to demand than are people who can be taught to weld beautifully and therefore are paid more.

    But I thought the received wisdom is that there are two billion people on the other side of the globe with such skills and that is why IT folks here are starving.

  173. @Daniel Chieh
    I feel you. I went from a technical job into a managerial job, and now I feel like I barely do anything but am paid even more. Its not actually all that pleasant, I keep wishing that I can be allowed to "get my hands dirty" but its prohibited.

    I refuse to go into management despite off-and-on pressure from my managers to take the plunge, but fortunately my technical chops and experience are still in demand and I can get away with staying technical. And my employer is enlightened enough to realize that they need a certain number of crusty old farts around to keep even the sharp kids from making mistakes that they don’t teach you about in school.

  174. @Nick Diaz
    Why does Steve Sailer keep comparing Israel to the U.S on this issue? The two countries are not comparable at all. Putting aside the fact that the Israeli fence *is* pseudo-Nazi, at least the Israelis have a real justification for it: they are a Jewish state surrounded, for the most part, by hostile Muslim states that want to annihilate them. Every Arab who crosses the border into Israel is a potential terrorist.

    Conversely, the majority of people crossing the U.S border are not dangerous. Sure, there are a few criminals, but the vast majority are peaceful laborers who just want to work and have a better life. While stopping criminals from crossing is important, their numbers and the dangers they represent do not justify a military-style electrified fence with heavily armed soldiers

    Does Steve Sailer realize just how cretinous his argument for building an Israeli-like securiity apparatus by equating America's immigration problems to Israel's geopolitical situation is? This is cretinously stupid.

    Israel has its friends to the west Jordan, the east Egypt, the south Saudi Arabia. No one is trying to enter Israel from the north where its ” enemies ” are.
    Saudi Arabia has built its fence along its border with Iraq and stops at its borders with Jordan and Kuwait. So the Sauds wish to keep the ISIS types from visiting while they keep on paying them to try to destroy Syria and Iraq.
    Every Mexican that crosses the US border illegally and takes yet another job from an American citizen is a criminal no matter how much they “just want to steal what isn’t theirs.”
    The Mexican immigrants can walk across and walk back whenever it suits them. They come to sponge. The 0ld Ellis Island immigrants did not have the luxury of going home when ever it suited them.
    Two problems can have the same solution. Israel appears to be doing quite well applying that solution to their situation. The solution will be applied to ours to our benefit.

  175. @whorefinder
    It's important to create something that isn't a mere Maginot Line that the invaders---ahem, illegals---circumvent. In WWII, it was by going around; here it would be by tunneling under.

    It's well-documented that illegals have built numerous tunnels under the existing fences along our southern border. The wall needs to structurally take care of this problem----i.e. be built with such deep foundations and such hardened materials that tunneling through would be very difficult and cause those above ground to notice.

    Constantinople had enemies trying to tunnel through, but such folks never succeeded. Whatever worked there to prevent tunneling should be employed now. Any new-fangled "sensors" would be nice, but the old ways would be best---and long-term way more cost effective.

    Cheap listening devices deployed every quarter of a mile will stop the tunnelling.
    Triangulate the tunnel, counter bore and boom closed tunnel.

  176. @Sam Haysom
    Ernest Nolte's theory was that Hitler had identified communism as the existential threat to Germany. In Hitler's mind the Jews and communism where intimately connected and as such the Holocaust emerged from this conflation of the two in Hitler's Mind.

    There was no Jewish influence in the Bolshevik uprising was there.
    If only we could get 200 Years Together published in the USA. Funny how none of the
    NYC publishing houses will attempt that.

  177. @Smartie
    I heard that the Saudi fence is built by Airbus.

    I thought it was built by a German company, maybe Rheinmetall.

  178. @Nico
    Regardless of apparent levels of skill and craftsmanship, there is still the idea that personnel for most IT jobs must be capable of passing classes in calculus, digital logic and relational algebra. People who fit this bill are far rarer relative to demand than are people who can be taught to weld beautifully and therefore are paid more.

    Heh, I am possessed of none of those skills. No math, a couple of years community college, started at the breakup of the Bells and that’s it. Skills limited to comm skills, a minor in literacy and a few principles thrown in from working on A-6s in the Navy, playing shade tree mechanic, like that. I passed the Master’s electrician’s license test so I could pull low-voltage permits back in DC, but I’m no electrician. Good stuff to know, nonetheless.

    That’s it. Best part is I only get my hands a little dirty pulling data wiring, but that’s extra. Lots of broads work in these offices, work is a target-rich environment when it’s someone ELSE’S office.

    • Replies: @Nico
    I must admit I had a somewhat narrower definition of "IT" in mind, probably more akin to software engineering. It is true that that is not the only lucrative subset of IT. Of course, the real explanation of why these jobs command so much is that a welder out of work for a day means the product gets finished slower, while an IT outage stops the work cycle altogether because nearly all companies are now 100% dependent on the Turing machine. It's the same reason plumbers make such a killing: no one nowadays is willing to go without a functioning toilet for any length of time.
  179. @Steve Sailer
    $5 million per mile?

    I was watching a prison documentary a few years ago. The cost of building a prison wall, you know, the reinforced concrete and barbed wire, was $1,000 per linear foot.

    So we’re talking about a very high quality wall.

  180. @Jim Christian
    Heh, I am possessed of none of those skills. No math, a couple of years community college, started at the breakup of the Bells and that's it. Skills limited to comm skills, a minor in literacy and a few principles thrown in from working on A-6s in the Navy, playing shade tree mechanic, like that. I passed the Master's electrician's license test so I could pull low-voltage permits back in DC, but I'm no electrician. Good stuff to know, nonetheless.

    That's it. Best part is I only get my hands a little dirty pulling data wiring, but that's extra. Lots of broads work in these offices, work is a target-rich environment when it's someone ELSE'S office.

    I must admit I had a somewhat narrower definition of “IT” in mind, probably more akin to software engineering. It is true that that is not the only lucrative subset of IT. Of course, the real explanation of why these jobs command so much is that a welder out of work for a day means the product gets finished slower, while an IT outage stops the work cycle altogether because nearly all companies are now 100% dependent on the Turing machine. It’s the same reason plumbers make such a killing: no one nowadays is willing to go without a functioning toilet for any length of time.

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