The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
Scotland's Genetic Map
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

From The Scotsman:

Genetic ‘map’ shows Dark Age Scottish kingdoms live on in today’s Scots

SHAN ROSS
Monday 02 September 2019

It was a time when the warring kingdoms of Dark Ages Scotland such as Gododdin and Pictland were fighting for supremacy, with battle skills honed fighting Roman invaders.

But rather than all traces of such peoples being lost in the mists of time, Scotland’s first comprehensive genetic map reveals the DNA of Scottish people still contains signs of the ancient kingdoms, with many apparently living in the same areas as their ancestors more than a millennium ago.

Research from the University of Edinburgh shows Scotland is divided into six main clusters of genetically similar individuals located in the Borders, the south-west, the north-east, the Hebrides, Orkney and Shetland.

These groupings mirror Dark Age kingdoms such as Strathclyde in the south-west, Pictland in the north-east and Gododdin in the south-east. ….

Professor Jim Wilson, from the university’s Usher Institute and MRC Human Genetics unit, said: “It is remarkable how long the shadows of Scotland’s Dark Age kingdoms are, given the massive increase in movement from the industrial revolution to the modern era.

“We believe this is largely due to the majority of people marrying locally and preserving their genetic identity.”
Prof Wilson added:

The study specifically looked for people whose ancestors were homebodies:

The study looked at the genetic makeup of more than 2,500 people from Britain and Ireland, including almost 1,000 from Scotland, whose grandparents or great grandparents were born within 50 miles of each other.

Experts found Orkney and Shetland had the highest levels of Norwegian ancestry outside Scandinavia and that many islands within the archipelagos had their own unique genetic identity.

It also emerged the founders of Iceland may have originated from north-west Scotland and Ireland, and the Isle of Man is genetically predominantly Scottish.

Here’s the PDF.

 
Hide 101 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. Off Topic but iStevey:

    Mike Pence visits Ireland, actually is Irish, and lodges at Trump’s golf course in Doonbeg.

    This apparently qualifies as a scandal.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    It's a taxpayer funded stay at a Trump property, 180 miles away from he will be having meetings.
    , @Anon
    I'm sure it's vastly cheaper than any of the Obama's vacations that the taxpayer had to cover.
    , @NewAnon
    Irish beware. Mike Pence = Zionist puppet in the WH. Probably there to gin up support for Israhell.
    , @Clifford Brown
    Pence stayed in Doonbeg because that is where his great grandmother is from. Like Muhammad Ali, Pence is a Clare man. Pence lived in Doonbeg for a summer after college. Pence worked at a local pub and cut turf from the bog like any other real Irishman which is why he is staying in Doonbeg during his visit to Ireland.

    None of this is hard to find, but apparently American journalists don't have access to Google or Irish newspapers.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/mike-pence-s-visit-to-ancestral-clare-village-very-moving-1.4006922
  2. Despite the recent adaptation of Presbyterianism, The Outer Hebrides are Irish of a sort. Trump is Irish even if he might not admit it.

    Scottish Highlanders put the planet to shame with their Psalms to the Lord.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That’s the melody to Amazing Grace
    , @El Dato
    These landscapes are literally white privilege.
    , @Anonymous
    Huh ? The outer hebrides have very little in common with south east Ireland. Genetically, geographically or culturally. Lewis, from where Trumps mother Maryanne MacLeod, descends, is out near the arctic circle. MacLeod there is known as Torquil. ( Thors kettle )
    In Skye its Tormod ( Norman )
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    They are very very Protestant in Lewis, and Gaelic psalms don't sound Irish to me, more Korean. As recently noted, the Hebrideans do have a lot of Irish ancestry, but then a lot of Irish invaded Scotland in past times.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/08/27/1904761116

    One annoying thing about this paper (to a cursory glance by an ill-informed person like me) is that they don't seem to discriminate between male and female DNA.

    "This modern genetic structure suggests a northwestern British or Irish source population for the ancient Gaels that contributed to the founding of Iceland"


    I know the Vikings found Scottish monks there when they first came, but I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of Irish/Scottish DNA in Iceland will be from women taken by force in raids on Irish and Scottish coasts, not from Irishmen sailing there.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/dna-study-reveals-fate-of-irish-women-taken-by-vikings-as-slaves-to-iceland-1.3521206
  3. And they’re still producing fearsome warriors, like The Ginger Dwarf of the North:

    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Amerimutt Golems
    Warrior?

    Dwarf Woke Idiot wants to flood Scotland with blacks and browns.

    What is the SNP’s policy on immigration?
    https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-is-the-snp-s-policy-on-immigration/

    The SNP will continue to seek devolution of immigration powers so that Scotland can have an immigration policy that works for our economy and society. And we will stand firm against the demonisation of migrants.
    ...

    And for those that have already chosen to make Scotland their home, we want a more compassionate approach to family migration.
    , @Wilkey
    Groan.

    Fighting to the death for Scots independence from the English...so she can give it away to bureaucrats in Brussels, and to immigrants from Africa and Pakistan.

    There really is no way to comprehend the stupidity that has taken hold.
  4. Anonymous[414] • Disclaimer says:

    Experts found Orkney and Shetland had the highest levels of Norwegian ancestry outside Scandinavia and that many islands within the archipelagos had their own unique genetic identity.

    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish–the ancient Gaelic language, I mean–is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    • Replies: @Wilkey

    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish–the ancient Gaelic language, I mean–is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.
     
    If I'm reading the study right, Orkney and the Shetlands are only about 20-25% Scandinavian.

    That may seem like a lot, but much of the rest of Scotland has a fair amount of Germanic admixture, correct?
    , @dearieme
    those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where ... the ancient Gaelic language ... is still spoken natively

    On that you are, as far as I know, entirely wrong. The Gaelic speakers I've known have all been from Skye and the Outer Hebrides. The former language of the Northern Isles is Norn, not Gaelic. Before Norn it was presumably Pictish which is nowadays assumed to be Brythonic (though when I was a boy it was said to be of unknown affinity).
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish–the ancient Gaelic language, I mean–is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.
     
    Go right to the source and ask the horse. He'll give you an answer that you'll endorse:

    Do the people of Orkney speak Gaelic?

    No. Gaelic was never spoken in Orkney, unless the language of the Picts - the inhabitants of the islands before the Norsemen took them - was an early form of Gaelic. This is itself highly debatable...

    Orkney’s placenames are more or less completely derived from Old Norse with only handful of possible Gaelic "borrowed" words.

    http://www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/faq.htm
     

    'Recognisable yet strange': a guide to Shetlandic dialect

    What is Shetlandic?

    Shetlandic, or Shetland dialect, could be described as Old Scots (which is related to Middle English) with a strong Norse influence. It's a waageng (aftertaste) of Norn, an extinct North Germanic language spoken in Shetland until the 18th century...
     
    Gaelic is spoken in the northwest islands, not the northeast, where they've complained that compulsory Gaelic in the schools makes less sense than Norse.

    Gaelic is spoken in the Northeast of Nova Scotia, however.


    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/gaelic-e1529318345830.png


    http://www2.mystfx.ca/sites/mystfx.ca.celtic-studies/files/Gaelic%20in%20Eastern%20Maritimes%201901.jpg
    , @Gordo
    Nah, that's the Hebrides.

    Norn, a Norse language, died out in Caithness on the mainland maybe 17th Century, Orkney early 19th, Shetland mid to late 19th.

    I've tried to find a Ballad of Hildina in useable form on the interweb but no luck.

    In fact if you read Ane Pleasant Satyre of the Thrie Estaitis by Davis Lyndsay, in Middle Scots, 1552, there are loads of words which no longer exist in Scots but are still going strong in Norwegian.

    The Scottish Government is really pushing Gaelic, the subleties of Scotland's history are lost on those bullying fanatics in Edinburgh, every damned railway station has the name up in Gaelic now even when, as so often, they have to fabricate a name. If it's possibel to have a tiny vile ruling clique worse than London's then Edinburgh manages it.
    , @crusain
    There is no Gaelic spoken in Shetland or Orkney. Gaelic survives in parts of the Hebrides and in parts of the Highlands.
    , @crusain
    There is no Gaelic spoken in Shetland or Orkney. Gaelic survives in parts of the Hebrides and in parts of the Highlands.
    , @crusain
    There is no Gaelic spoken in Shetland or Orkney. Gaelic survives in parts of the Hebrides and in parts of the Highlands.
    , @Snootybaronet
    No, Gaelic is still spoken in islands of the Outer Hebrides and in parts of the Highlands. Gaelic is not spoken in Shetland or Orkney.
  5. @Clifford Brown
    Despite the recent adaptation of Presbyterianism, The Outer Hebrides are Irish of a sort. Trump is Irish even if he might not admit it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3MzZgPBL3Q

    Scottish Highlanders put the planet to shame with their Psalms to the Lord.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67jbBYbcqao

    That’s the melody to Amazing Grace

  6. Don’t worry, the Scottish are pale enough, future studies will “prove” this one wrong.

  7. @Anonymous
    Off Topic but iStevey:

    Mike Pence visits Ireland, actually is Irish, and lodges at Trump's golf course in Doonbeg.

    This apparently qualifies as a scandal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcCBX68-LM

    It’s a taxpayer funded stay at a Trump property, 180 miles away from he will be having meetings.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Sure, but unlike the local hotels, this one has bar soap and wash cloths. You should hear how Americans carp when European and British hotels don't have these.
    , @J.Ross
    Given the way Trump scandals have gone, all of this will prove to be untrue, but reporters will have moved on to complaining about the type of shoes Trump racistly wears.
  8. @Clifford Brown
    Despite the recent adaptation of Presbyterianism, The Outer Hebrides are Irish of a sort. Trump is Irish even if he might not admit it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3MzZgPBL3Q

    Scottish Highlanders put the planet to shame with their Psalms to the Lord.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67jbBYbcqao

    These landscapes are literally white privilege.

    • Replies: @Charon
    I know right? The mere fact that they're so traditionally "beautiful" should be evidence enough that they are redolent of privilege and need to be destroyed, or "deconstructed" as we like to say. Or do I mean "interrogated"?

    I get so confused. I just know it's wrong. All of it. White AF.

    , @Dube

    These landscapes are literally white privilege.
     
    The privilege was earned the hard way, as the landscapes themselves tell us.
  9. @Ali Choudhury
    It's a taxpayer funded stay at a Trump property, 180 miles away from he will be having meetings.

    Sure, but unlike the local hotels, this one has bar soap and wash cloths. You should hear how Americans carp when European and British hotels don’t have these.

  10. @The Alarmist
    And they're still producing fearsome warriors, like The Ginger Dwarf of the North:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/20/TELEMMGLPICT000126407719-xlarge_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqrnykcIhNBTQGIhNzmTaT-ZwGiqqVtj3T3l_hh_BDGXs.jpeg

    Warrior?

    Dwarf Woke Idiot wants to flood Scotland with blacks and browns.

    What is the SNP’s policy on immigration?
    https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-is-the-snp-s-policy-on-immigration/

    The SNP will continue to seek devolution of immigration powers so that Scotland can have an immigration policy that works for our economy and society. And we will stand firm against the demonisation of migrants.

    And for those that have already chosen to make Scotland their home, we want a more compassionate approach to family migration.

  11. I wonder if they did geneoloogical work on the subjects. Usually these studies stop at the four grandparents, since few people can supply reliable information on their eight great grandparents.

  12. @The Alarmist
    And they're still producing fearsome warriors, like The Ginger Dwarf of the North:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/20/TELEMMGLPICT000126407719-xlarge_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqrnykcIhNBTQGIhNzmTaT-ZwGiqqVtj3T3l_hh_BDGXs.jpeg

    Groan.

    Fighting to the death for Scots independence from the English…so she can give it away to bureaucrats in Brussels, and to immigrants from Africa and Pakistan.

    There really is no way to comprehend the stupidity that has taken hold.

    • Disagree: The Alarmist
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Sorry! My fat finger was supposed to hit AGREE.
    , @Flip
    Same thing with Ireland. If they are going to be a mini Brazil, why did they fight to leave the UK?
    , @Cowboy shaw
    She is disgusting.
  13. @El Dato
    These landscapes are literally white privilege.

    I know right? The mere fact that they’re so traditionally “beautiful” should be evidence enough that they are redolent of privilege and need to be destroyed, or “deconstructed” as we like to say. Or do I mean “interrogated”?

    I get so confused. I just know it’s wrong. All of it. White AF.

  14. @Anonymous

    Experts found Orkney and Shetland had the highest levels of Norwegian ancestry outside Scandinavia and that many islands within the archipelagos had their own unique genetic identity.
     
    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish--the ancient Gaelic language, I mean--is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish–the ancient Gaelic language, I mean–is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    If I’m reading the study right, Orkney and the Shetlands are only about 20-25% Scandinavian.

    That may seem like a lot, but much of the rest of Scotland has a fair amount of Germanic admixture, correct?

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    The border area, perhaps. But the impact of the Anglo-Saxon invasions on even England is overstated. Most genetic studies say the most “Germanic” part of England, East Anglia, was genetically more influenced by the later Viking/Scandinavian invasions than the Anglo-Saxon ones. And even there the folks are around 1/3 “native British.” The Anglo Saxons probably were merely an elite superimposed on the preexisting population, sort of like the Normans, they didn’t wipe out many natives, and the native elites were pushed to places like Wales or Cornwall. The Scandinavians seem to have brought a lot more female settlers too, when they came later. I think the whole emphasis on Anglo Saxons origin myths probably arose in the Middle Ages as a kind of anti-Norman/French thing because peasants/ordinary folks in England were dissatisfied and also wanted to claim to have been descended from super warrior invaders- but not the more recent Vikings who had a bad pagan reputation and were also associated with Normandy.
  15. @Wilkey
    Groan.

    Fighting to the death for Scots independence from the English...so she can give it away to bureaucrats in Brussels, and to immigrants from Africa and Pakistan.

    There really is no way to comprehend the stupidity that has taken hold.

    Sorry! My fat finger was supposed to hit AGREE.

    • Replies: @dr kill
    Fat? No people are fat like Scots are fat. What's a Scottish salad? A pile of cold chips.
  16. I am under the impression that Northern Ireland (plurality Protestant) is not as far along in practicing cultural and racial auto genocide as their Republic of Ireland (majority Catholic) neighbors.

    A request directed to more knowledgeable UR commentators: Am I correct? (And thanks for any response(s).)

    • Agree: jim jones
    • Replies: @Gordo

    I am under the impression that Northern Ireland (plurality Protestant) is not as far along in practicing cultural and racial auto genocide as their Republic of Ireland (majority Catholic) neighbors.
     
    There still exists a certain clannish, outside the Hajnal line aspect to Northen Ireland.

    Also communities there have a certain self sufficiency, both Unionist and Repubs. The government does not have a credible monopoly on violence, paramilitary forces are still armed and capable.

    NornIron will remain White for a while yet and I don't think any Rotherhams will happen soon either.
  17. @Anonymous

    Experts found Orkney and Shetland had the highest levels of Norwegian ancestry outside Scandinavia and that many islands within the archipelagos had their own unique genetic identity.
     
    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish--the ancient Gaelic language, I mean--is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where … the ancient Gaelic language … is still spoken natively

    On that you are, as far as I know, entirely wrong. The Gaelic speakers I’ve known have all been from Skye and the Outer Hebrides. The former language of the Northern Isles is Norn, not Gaelic. Before Norn it was presumably Pictish which is nowadays assumed to be Brythonic (though when I was a boy it was said to be of unknown affinity).

  18. So, West Virginia should be part of the red on that map, yes?

  19. @Anonymous

    Experts found Orkney and Shetland had the highest levels of Norwegian ancestry outside Scandinavia and that many islands within the archipelagos had their own unique genetic identity.
     
    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish--the ancient Gaelic language, I mean--is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish–the ancient Gaelic language, I mean–is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    Go right to the source and ask the horse. He’ll give you an answer that you’ll endorse:

    Do the people of Orkney speak Gaelic?

    No. Gaelic was never spoken in Orkney, unless the language of the Picts – the inhabitants of the islands before the Norsemen took them – was an early form of Gaelic. This is itself highly debatable…

    Orkney’s placenames are more or less completely derived from Old Norse with only handful of possible Gaelic “borrowed” words.

    http://www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/faq.htm

    ‘Recognisable yet strange’: a guide to Shetlandic dialect

    What is Shetlandic?

    Shetlandic, or Shetland dialect, could be described as Old Scots (which is related to Middle English) with a strong Norse influence. It’s a waageng (aftertaste) of Norn, an extinct North Germanic language spoken in Shetland until the 18th century…

    Gaelic is spoken in the northwest islands, not the northeast, where they’ve complained that compulsory Gaelic in the schools makes less sense than Norse.

    Gaelic is spoken in the Northeast of Nova Scotia, however.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Reg Caesar:

    The maps show it all. Thanks.
    , @Father O'Hara
    This is a bit trivial,but growing up,whenever I heard about the Welsh,for example Richard Burton or Tom Jones,I imagined Wales to be stuck on the right side of England. It didn't really make sense,but I guess the Welsh just seemed to be English,albeit with some weird place names,and they were in some remote nook in the east. Where they belonged.

    London, I always thought,was on the left coast. This was because the Beatles came from Liverpool,which was on the coast. We have relatives in Manchester,and visited Blackpool,so I assumed England,like our East Coast,had its premiere city on the coast in kind of a Western corridor with her other major cities.
    This shows implicit bias towards America. I was wrong.
    , @Verymuchalive
    As the Legend denotes, as recently as 1950, Breton had as many as I million speakers. Since the Revolution, at least, France has had a centralising government intolerant of native differences, that is Real Diversity. As recently as 1880, if not later, most inhabitants did not normally speak French. Indeed, many couldn't understand it at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7u8oyk/how_true_is_this_claim_in_1789_50_percent_of_the/


    Once upon a time, America had a decentralised society, with a widely based economy, and regions with peculiar and striking differences. Whatever happened to it ?
  20. See it’s okay for endless immigration because in the distant future they may be able to detect a gene that you existed. See all is not lost. No one is wiping the whites people out. They just hate the “white” supremacists.

  21. To visit my ancestral lands, I had to walk from Fort William to Loch Eil. It really felt like time had stood still. But that was 1994. I wouldn’t be surprised if that area has changed more in the last 25 years than in the previous 125. This was a fascinating article.

  22. @Wilkey
    Groan.

    Fighting to the death for Scots independence from the English...so she can give it away to bureaucrats in Brussels, and to immigrants from Africa and Pakistan.

    There really is no way to comprehend the stupidity that has taken hold.

    Same thing with Ireland. If they are going to be a mini Brazil, why did they fight to leave the UK?

    • Replies: @Kolya Krassotkin
    Ireland expeling the English and welcoming tbe Hutu hordes: a classic case of out of the frying pan and into the fire, not using your frontal lobes in your decision making.
    , @Wilkey

    Same thing with Ireland. If they are going to be a mini Brazil, why did they fight to leave the UK?
     
    Ireland fought for independence a century ago, and only recently embraced cultural suicide. Scotland is fighting for its independence and its subservience (and ultimately its destruction) at the exact same time. It is incomprehensible. The Scottish Nationalist Party isn't nationalist, and it's fighting to effectively abolish Scotland.

    Of the world's white English-speaking nations the United Kingdom, the historic birthplace of them all, is nearly the poorest. Ireland is richer incredible to me is that the United Kingdom, the birthplace of the world's Anglo-Saxon democracies, is financially near the bottom. The United States, Ireland, Canada, and Australia are all wealthier, and the UK just barely edges out New Zealand - a small, somewhat isolated island nation in the South Pacific.

    Of the other English-speaking countries only Ireland is a member of the European Union. It seems hard to make the argument that the UK can't thrive outside of the EU. Besides Ireland it's former colonies have kept their sovereignty and are all doing just fine.
    , @S. Anonyia
    Have you actually been to Ireland? It is still incredibly Irish. Largest minority are Poles and French/SE Asian guest workers in hotels. Even Dublin was really Irish aside from the taxi drivers who seemed like they had nothing to do.

    It also seemed quite wealthy and bucolic and there was a sense of genuine community, especially in the Western part of the island. Little old ladies go walking wherever they want without a worry, teenagers actually get into shenanigans outside instead of playing video games, cows/sheeps cause traffic jams on country roads and cheerful moms pushing strollers everywhere in the suburbs/small towns.

    My impression is that Ireland sure benefited from emigration and depopulation.

  23. @Reg Cæsar

    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish–the ancient Gaelic language, I mean–is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.
     
    Go right to the source and ask the horse. He'll give you an answer that you'll endorse:

    Do the people of Orkney speak Gaelic?

    No. Gaelic was never spoken in Orkney, unless the language of the Picts - the inhabitants of the islands before the Norsemen took them - was an early form of Gaelic. This is itself highly debatable...

    Orkney’s placenames are more or less completely derived from Old Norse with only handful of possible Gaelic "borrowed" words.

    http://www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/faq.htm
     

    'Recognisable yet strange': a guide to Shetlandic dialect

    What is Shetlandic?

    Shetlandic, or Shetland dialect, could be described as Old Scots (which is related to Middle English) with a strong Norse influence. It's a waageng (aftertaste) of Norn, an extinct North Germanic language spoken in Shetland until the 18th century...
     
    Gaelic is spoken in the northwest islands, not the northeast, where they've complained that compulsory Gaelic in the schools makes less sense than Norse.

    Gaelic is spoken in the Northeast of Nova Scotia, however.


    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/gaelic-e1529318345830.png


    http://www2.mystfx.ca/sites/mystfx.ca.celtic-studies/files/Gaelic%20in%20Eastern%20Maritimes%201901.jpg

    Reg Caesar:

    The maps show it all. Thanks.

  24. @Wilkey

    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish–the ancient Gaelic language, I mean–is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.
     
    If I'm reading the study right, Orkney and the Shetlands are only about 20-25% Scandinavian.

    That may seem like a lot, but much of the rest of Scotland has a fair amount of Germanic admixture, correct?

    The border area, perhaps. But the impact of the Anglo-Saxon invasions on even England is overstated. Most genetic studies say the most “Germanic” part of England, East Anglia, was genetically more influenced by the later Viking/Scandinavian invasions than the Anglo-Saxon ones. And even there the folks are around 1/3 “native British.” The Anglo Saxons probably were merely an elite superimposed on the preexisting population, sort of like the Normans, they didn’t wipe out many natives, and the native elites were pushed to places like Wales or Cornwall. The Scandinavians seem to have brought a lot more female settlers too, when they came later. I think the whole emphasis on Anglo Saxons origin myths probably arose in the Middle Ages as a kind of anti-Norman/French thing because peasants/ordinary folks in England were dissatisfied and also wanted to claim to have been descended from super warrior invaders- but not the more recent Vikings who had a bad pagan reputation and were also associated with Normandy.

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    "but not the more recent Vikings who had a bad pagan reputation"

    That's what made them so sexy. That and the berserkers.
    , @Ancient Briton
    There are very few extant Celtic place names in England - all those ham, ton, ly, ford, thorpe city/town suffixes are AS, as are county names, suggesting a pretty thorough replacement by the elite.
    , @Cagey Beast
    I think the whole emphasis on Anglo Saxons origin myths probably arose in the Middle Ages as a kind of anti-Norman/French thing ...

    I wonder if the emphasis on the Anglo-Saxons came much later? Were the Anglo-Saxons given prominence by Americans who wanted to distinguish themselves from the continental European "tyranny" the Normans supposedly brought with them? Is it something that only took off in the 18th or 19th century as new social classes from among "Albion's seed" grew in prominence? I only came to understand how big a deal some people make of the Anglo-Saxon narrative by seeing discussions online. Growing up and studying history at a Canadian university hadn't exposed me to it earlier.
  25. @Anonymous

    Experts found Orkney and Shetland had the highest levels of Norwegian ancestry outside Scandinavia and that many islands within the archipelagos had their own unique genetic identity.
     
    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish--the ancient Gaelic language, I mean--is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    Nah, that’s the Hebrides.

    Norn, a Norse language, died out in Caithness on the mainland maybe 17th Century, Orkney early 19th, Shetland mid to late 19th.

    I’ve tried to find a Ballad of Hildina in useable form on the interweb but no luck.

    In fact if you read Ane Pleasant Satyre of the Thrie Estaitis by Davis Lyndsay, in Middle Scots, 1552, there are loads of words which no longer exist in Scots but are still going strong in Norwegian.

    The Scottish Government is really pushing Gaelic, the subleties of Scotland’s history are lost on those bullying fanatics in Edinburgh, every damned railway station has the name up in Gaelic now even when, as so often, they have to fabricate a name. If it’s possibel to have a tiny vile ruling clique worse than London’s then Edinburgh manages it.

  26. @Dan Hayes
    I am under the impression that Northern Ireland (plurality Protestant) is not as far along in practicing cultural and racial auto genocide as their Republic of Ireland (majority Catholic) neighbors.

    A request directed to more knowledgeable UR commentators: Am I correct? (And thanks for any response(s).)

    I am under the impression that Northern Ireland (plurality Protestant) is not as far along in practicing cultural and racial auto genocide as their Republic of Ireland (majority Catholic) neighbors.

    There still exists a certain clannish, outside the Hajnal line aspect to Northen Ireland.

    Also communities there have a certain self sufficiency, both Unionist and Repubs. The government does not have a credible monopoly on violence, paramilitary forces are still armed and capable.

    NornIron will remain White for a while yet and I don’t think any Rotherhams will happen soon either.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Gordo:

    Thanks. Relatively good news, especially your last paragraph.
  27. @Clifford Brown
    Despite the recent adaptation of Presbyterianism, The Outer Hebrides are Irish of a sort. Trump is Irish even if he might not admit it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3MzZgPBL3Q

    Scottish Highlanders put the planet to shame with their Psalms to the Lord.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67jbBYbcqao

    Huh ? The outer hebrides have very little in common with south east Ireland. Genetically, geographically or culturally. Lewis, from where Trumps mother Maryanne MacLeod, descends, is out near the arctic circle. MacLeod there is known as Torquil. ( Thors kettle )
    In Skye its Tormod ( Norman )

    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    What language do they speak in the Outer Hebrides? Scottish? Olde Norse?
  28. RIP Franco Columbu, Pictish Scout in Conan The Barbarian.

    • Replies: @william munny
    The Sardinian Samson makes you think about how tough the Yamnaya were to conquer those Neolithic farmers.
  29. There needs to be a study of the correlations between what Colin Campbell (head of Clan Campbell) has called “The American Clearances” and the clearances of the Scots (and Scotch-Irish) to the new world. Measuring the selection pressures in terms of predisposition for freedom by may shed light on the biodiversity of individualism thence America’s settler culture culture of individual integrity.

    • Replies: @Anon
    I once tried to look up the Y-DNA of every male ancestor spread out through my entire tree, expecting to find a lot of R1b guys, but to my surprise, most of them came from the I lineages. The I lines are an older set of Northwest European lineages in the process of being swamped and overrun by the R1b types. Since most of my male ancestors immigrated to the US in the 1600s, it looks like the I-guys were not living in the best of circumstances back in Europe, and they looked around and said, 'Let's get the heck out of here for the New World. We're being muscled out and pushed around.'
    , @Hank Yobo
    Haven't Jack Bumsted and James Hunter already written extensively about these matters? The latter's, A Dance Called America, is an exceptional book about Highland immigration to the New World. Both argue that a desire for cultural continuity was a decisive factor in the "push" away from Scotland and the "pull" to North America where Scots could still settle in clan or extended family groups through the 1820's. Gaelic programming was still broadcast on the CBC to a wide audience the 1930's.
  30. @Wilkey
    Groan.

    Fighting to the death for Scots independence from the English...so she can give it away to bureaucrats in Brussels, and to immigrants from Africa and Pakistan.

    There really is no way to comprehend the stupidity that has taken hold.

    She is disgusting.

  31. @Anonymous
    Off Topic but iStevey:

    Mike Pence visits Ireland, actually is Irish, and lodges at Trump's golf course in Doonbeg.

    This apparently qualifies as a scandal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcCBX68-LM

    I’m sure it’s vastly cheaper than any of the Obama’s vacations that the taxpayer had to cover.

  32. Anon[917] • Disclaimer says:
    @James Bowery
    There needs to be a study of the correlations between what Colin Campbell (head of Clan Campbell) has called "The American Clearances" and the clearances of the Scots (and Scotch-Irish) to the new world. Measuring the selection pressures in terms of predisposition for freedom by may shed light on the biodiversity of individualism thence America's settler culture culture of individual integrity.

    I once tried to look up the Y-DNA of every male ancestor spread out through my entire tree, expecting to find a lot of R1b guys, but to my surprise, most of them came from the I lineages. The I lines are an older set of Northwest European lineages in the process of being swamped and overrun by the R1b types. Since most of my male ancestors immigrated to the US in the 1600s, it looks like the I-guys were not living in the best of circumstances back in Europe, and they looked around and said, ‘Let’s get the heck out of here for the New World. We’re being muscled out and pushed around.’

    • Replies: @Bruno
    Y-DNA I are the first Homo sapiens in Europe. The R guy expelled them from south east Europe (still majority) in Balkan and they survived in Scandinavia (one third).
  33. @S. Anonyia
    The border area, perhaps. But the impact of the Anglo-Saxon invasions on even England is overstated. Most genetic studies say the most “Germanic” part of England, East Anglia, was genetically more influenced by the later Viking/Scandinavian invasions than the Anglo-Saxon ones. And even there the folks are around 1/3 “native British.” The Anglo Saxons probably were merely an elite superimposed on the preexisting population, sort of like the Normans, they didn’t wipe out many natives, and the native elites were pushed to places like Wales or Cornwall. The Scandinavians seem to have brought a lot more female settlers too, when they came later. I think the whole emphasis on Anglo Saxons origin myths probably arose in the Middle Ages as a kind of anti-Norman/French thing because peasants/ordinary folks in England were dissatisfied and also wanted to claim to have been descended from super warrior invaders- but not the more recent Vikings who had a bad pagan reputation and were also associated with Normandy.

    “but not the more recent Vikings who had a bad pagan reputation”

    That’s what made them so sexy. That and the berserkers.

  34. Fake asylum seeker from the Côte d’Ivoire learns a smattering of Welsh. Is acclaimed as a genius and showered with benefits. There are a billion more where he came from: the language is saved!

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/asylum-seeker-who-learned-fluent-16728537

    (Note: the language instruction being offered appears to be merely token. Celtic languages are difficult. This is bullshit.)

  35. It’s odd that the southwest Lowlands and west Highlands have the same stock of people. My impression was that culturally they were very different . Maybe I’m wrong.

  36. Not for long. The multiculti cult of destruction is festering among them. Those who wanted Scottish independence actually wanted it because they wanted *more* immigration, not less.

  37. @Anonymous
    Off Topic but iStevey:

    Mike Pence visits Ireland, actually is Irish, and lodges at Trump's golf course in Doonbeg.

    This apparently qualifies as a scandal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcCBX68-LM

    Irish beware. Mike Pence = Zionist puppet in the WH. Probably there to gin up support for Israhell.

  38. Most Appalachians in the US are of Scots-Irish descent, and they are also an insular bunch. Some think the insularity may have been the main cause of their poverty, with low IQ an indirect result of possible inbreeding. But the Scottish don’t seem to be of particularly low IQ, even though they might be highly related.

    • Replies: @Faraday's Bobcat

    Most Appalachians in the US are of Scots-Irish descent, and they are also an insular bunch. Some think the insularity may have been the main cause of their poverty, with low IQ an indirect result of possible inbreeding. But the Scottish don’t seem to be of particularly low IQ, even though they might be highly related.
     
    Most Appalachian people have up and left. There are tens of millions of people spread all over the country who can trace ancestry back to the original white settlers of Appalachia, and I doubt they differ markedly from other white Americans in IQ. What you have left in rural Appalachia today is a very thin layer of able and responsible folks taking care of a big remnant underclass of people that can't or aren't able to leave and who wouldn't be able to deal with modern city life.

    Appalachians are probably a quarter German on average. Some came down from Pennsylvania with the Scots-Irish in the mid-1700s and some came there directly from Germany. German was spoken in many towns in Western Virginia up through the early 1800s.

    Scotland does swing well above its weight in intellectual history. Watt, Smith, Hume, Carlyle, Scott, Symington, Telford, and so on from a population smaller than that of today's Phoenix, Arizona.
    , @Ancient Briton
    E.g., Scots-Irish non-low IQ William Thomson, 1st. Baron Kelvin was one of the most brilliant scientists of all time.
    , @Matra
    Appalachians are more English than Scots-Irish. Though at this point they are so mixed it hardly matters.
  39. @Reg Cæsar

    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish–the ancient Gaelic language, I mean–is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.
     
    Go right to the source and ask the horse. He'll give you an answer that you'll endorse:

    Do the people of Orkney speak Gaelic?

    No. Gaelic was never spoken in Orkney, unless the language of the Picts - the inhabitants of the islands before the Norsemen took them - was an early form of Gaelic. This is itself highly debatable...

    Orkney’s placenames are more or less completely derived from Old Norse with only handful of possible Gaelic "borrowed" words.

    http://www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/faq.htm
     

    'Recognisable yet strange': a guide to Shetlandic dialect

    What is Shetlandic?

    Shetlandic, or Shetland dialect, could be described as Old Scots (which is related to Middle English) with a strong Norse influence. It's a waageng (aftertaste) of Norn, an extinct North Germanic language spoken in Shetland until the 18th century...
     
    Gaelic is spoken in the northwest islands, not the northeast, where they've complained that compulsory Gaelic in the schools makes less sense than Norse.

    Gaelic is spoken in the Northeast of Nova Scotia, however.


    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/gaelic-e1529318345830.png


    http://www2.mystfx.ca/sites/mystfx.ca.celtic-studies/files/Gaelic%20in%20Eastern%20Maritimes%201901.jpg

    This is a bit trivial,but growing up,whenever I heard about the Welsh,for example Richard Burton or Tom Jones,I imagined Wales to be stuck on the right side of England. It didn’t really make sense,but I guess the Welsh just seemed to be English,albeit with some weird place names,and they were in some remote nook in the east. Where they belonged.

    London, I always thought,was on the left coast. This was because the Beatles came from Liverpool,which was on the coast. We have relatives in Manchester,and visited Blackpool,so I assumed England,like our East Coast,had its premiere city on the coast in kind of a Western corridor with her other major cities.
    This shows implicit bias towards America. I was wrong.

  40. But the Scottish don’t seem to be of particularly low IQ, even though they might be highly related.

    The Scottish education system is quite highly rated and seems to produce quite a lot of literacy.

  41. @Reg Cæsar

    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish–the ancient Gaelic language, I mean–is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.
     
    Go right to the source and ask the horse. He'll give you an answer that you'll endorse:

    Do the people of Orkney speak Gaelic?

    No. Gaelic was never spoken in Orkney, unless the language of the Picts - the inhabitants of the islands before the Norsemen took them - was an early form of Gaelic. This is itself highly debatable...

    Orkney’s placenames are more or less completely derived from Old Norse with only handful of possible Gaelic "borrowed" words.

    http://www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/faq.htm
     

    'Recognisable yet strange': a guide to Shetlandic dialect

    What is Shetlandic?

    Shetlandic, or Shetland dialect, could be described as Old Scots (which is related to Middle English) with a strong Norse influence. It's a waageng (aftertaste) of Norn, an extinct North Germanic language spoken in Shetland until the 18th century...
     
    Gaelic is spoken in the northwest islands, not the northeast, where they've complained that compulsory Gaelic in the schools makes less sense than Norse.

    Gaelic is spoken in the Northeast of Nova Scotia, however.


    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/gaelic-e1529318345830.png


    http://www2.mystfx.ca/sites/mystfx.ca.celtic-studies/files/Gaelic%20in%20Eastern%20Maritimes%201901.jpg

    As the Legend denotes, as recently as 1950, Breton had as many as I million speakers. Since the Revolution, at least, France has had a centralising government intolerant of native differences, that is Real Diversity. As recently as 1880, if not later, most inhabitants did not normally speak French. Indeed, many couldn’t understand it at all.

    How true is this claim: "…in 1789, 50 percent of the French people did not speak [French] at all, and only 12 to 13 percent spoke it fairly well"? from AskHistorians

    Once upon a time, America had a decentralised society, with a widely based economy, and regions with peculiar and striking differences. Whatever happened to it ?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    As recently as 1880, if not later, most inhabitants did not normally speak French. Indeed, many couldn’t understand it at all.
     
    They like to call their country "The Hexagon". But all six of her vertices speak another language: Basque, Breton, Flemish, Alsatian, Piedmontese, Catalan.
    , @Faraday's Bobcat
    I read Hobsbawm's book on nationalism and he said anyone who is a nationalist is ipso facto disqualified from having an opinion on nationalism. Would that the same were true of Marxists.
    , @Ancient Briton
    Interstate and Defense Highways.
    , @JMcG
    Television
  42. @Ali Choudhury
    It's a taxpayer funded stay at a Trump property, 180 miles away from he will be having meetings.

    Given the way Trump scandals have gone, all of this will prove to be untrue, but reporters will have moved on to complaining about the type of shoes Trump racistly wears.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    Pence had one meeting in Shannon airport 45 miles east of Doonbeg after he landed, Then he stayed overnight at Doonbeg and drove back to the airport the following day to fly to his meetings in Dublin. Flew back to Shannon and headed back to Doonbeg when the day was done. The day after he left.

    That's a lot of time and resource wasted, when Dublin airport is a 30 minute bus ride from the centre.
  43. @Flip
    Same thing with Ireland. If they are going to be a mini Brazil, why did they fight to leave the UK?

    Ireland expeling the English and welcoming tbe Hutu hordes: a classic case of out of the frying pan and into the fire, not using your frontal lobes in your decision making.

  44. @Flip
    Same thing with Ireland. If they are going to be a mini Brazil, why did they fight to leave the UK?

    Same thing with Ireland. If they are going to be a mini Brazil, why did they fight to leave the UK?

    Ireland fought for independence a century ago, and only recently embraced cultural suicide. Scotland is fighting for its independence and its subservience (and ultimately its destruction) at the exact same time. It is incomprehensible. The Scottish Nationalist Party isn’t nationalist, and it’s fighting to effectively abolish Scotland.

    Of the world’s white English-speaking nations the United Kingdom, the historic birthplace of them all, is nearly the poorest. Ireland is richer incredible to me is that the United Kingdom, the birthplace of the world’s Anglo-Saxon democracies, is financially near the bottom. The United States, Ireland, Canada, and Australia are all wealthier, and the UK just barely edges out New Zealand – a small, somewhat isolated island nation in the South Pacific.

    Of the other English-speaking countries only Ireland is a member of the European Union. It seems hard to make the argument that the UK can’t thrive outside of the EU. Besides Ireland it’s former colonies have kept their sovereignty and are all doing just fine.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    Ireland's GDP is artificially inflated by lots of corporations being headquartered there for tax reasons, a quarter of its GDP is accounted for by multinational royalty payments.

    Canada and,Australia's wealth is largely based on natural resource exports, they will level off now Chinese growth and the commodities boom is flat-lining.
  45. My Y-DNA is L-165 wich is found mostly in outer Hebrides

  46. @Verymuchalive
    As the Legend denotes, as recently as 1950, Breton had as many as I million speakers. Since the Revolution, at least, France has had a centralising government intolerant of native differences, that is Real Diversity. As recently as 1880, if not later, most inhabitants did not normally speak French. Indeed, many couldn't understand it at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7u8oyk/how_true_is_this_claim_in_1789_50_percent_of_the/


    Once upon a time, America had a decentralised society, with a widely based economy, and regions with peculiar and striking differences. Whatever happened to it ?

    As recently as 1880, if not later, most inhabitants did not normally speak French. Indeed, many couldn’t understand it at all.

    They like to call their country “The Hexagon”. But all six of her vertices speak another language: Basque, Breton, Flemish, Alsatian, Piedmontese, Catalan.

  47. @Anonymous
    Huh ? The outer hebrides have very little in common with south east Ireland. Genetically, geographically or culturally. Lewis, from where Trumps mother Maryanne MacLeod, descends, is out near the arctic circle. MacLeod there is known as Torquil. ( Thors kettle )
    In Skye its Tormod ( Norman )

    What language do they speak in the Outer Hebrides? Scottish? Olde Norse?

    • Replies: @dearieme
    English and Gaelic.
    , @Snootybaronet
    Gaelic....
  48. @J.Ross
    Given the way Trump scandals have gone, all of this will prove to be untrue, but reporters will have moved on to complaining about the type of shoes Trump racistly wears.

    Pence had one meeting in Shannon airport 45 miles east of Doonbeg after he landed, Then he stayed overnight at Doonbeg and drove back to the airport the following day to fly to his meetings in Dublin. Flew back to Shannon and headed back to Doonbeg when the day was done. The day after he left.

    That’s a lot of time and resource wasted, when Dublin airport is a 30 minute bus ride from the centre.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Better golf courses on the west side of Ireland than on the east side.

    Somebody could check Bill Clinton's itineraries in Ireland: he spent so much time in Ballybunion in far western Ireland that there's a statue of him teeing off there now.

    , @JMcG
    Dublin is a s**thole. I never spend more time there than it takes to get a car and hit the bricks. The whole incident shows eminent good sense on the part of Mr. Pence.
    , @J.Ross
    So Obama crucified and destroyed a German family that wanted to homeschool their kids and Pence once golfed. Obama did everything he could to personally encourage civil violence and Pence doesn't plan vacations with the help of those AAA guides.
    One day the headline will be that Trump racistly wears evil shoes.
  49. It matters little since Scotland will be 80% Paki, Arab and Somali in 50 years.

  50. @Anonymous
    Off Topic but iStevey:

    Mike Pence visits Ireland, actually is Irish, and lodges at Trump's golf course in Doonbeg.

    This apparently qualifies as a scandal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcCBX68-LM

    Pence stayed in Doonbeg because that is where his great grandmother is from. Like Muhammad Ali, Pence is a Clare man. Pence lived in Doonbeg for a summer after college. Pence worked at a local pub and cut turf from the bog like any other real Irishman which is why he is staying in Doonbeg during his visit to Ireland.

    None of this is hard to find, but apparently American journalists don’t have access to Google or Irish newspapers.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/mike-pence-s-visit-to-ancestral-clare-village-very-moving-1.4006922

  51. @Clifford Brown
    What language do they speak in the Outer Hebrides? Scottish? Olde Norse?

    English and Gaelic.

  52. @Wilkey

    Same thing with Ireland. If they are going to be a mini Brazil, why did they fight to leave the UK?
     
    Ireland fought for independence a century ago, and only recently embraced cultural suicide. Scotland is fighting for its independence and its subservience (and ultimately its destruction) at the exact same time. It is incomprehensible. The Scottish Nationalist Party isn't nationalist, and it's fighting to effectively abolish Scotland.

    Of the world's white English-speaking nations the United Kingdom, the historic birthplace of them all, is nearly the poorest. Ireland is richer incredible to me is that the United Kingdom, the birthplace of the world's Anglo-Saxon democracies, is financially near the bottom. The United States, Ireland, Canada, and Australia are all wealthier, and the UK just barely edges out New Zealand - a small, somewhat isolated island nation in the South Pacific.

    Of the other English-speaking countries only Ireland is a member of the European Union. It seems hard to make the argument that the UK can't thrive outside of the EU. Besides Ireland it's former colonies have kept their sovereignty and are all doing just fine.

    Ireland’s GDP is artificially inflated by lots of corporations being headquartered there for tax reasons, a quarter of its GDP is accounted for by multinational royalty payments.

    Canada and,Australia’s wealth is largely based on natural resource exports, they will level off now Chinese growth and the commodities boom is flat-lining.

    • Replies: @Wilkey

    Ireland’s GDP is artificially inflated by lots of corporations being headquartered there for tax reasons, a quarter of its GDP is accounted for by multinational royalty payments. Canada and Australia’s wealth is largely based on natural resource exports, they will level off now Chinese growth and the commodities boom is flat-lining.

     

    I suspected that about Ireland.

    I certainly agree with the fact that Canada's and Australia's (and the USA's) per capita incomes are boosted by resource extraction, but that is actually a strong incentive to keep immigration rates low.

    While the value of various natural resources may go up and down, there value is never going away. If Canada and Australia double their populations then the contribution of resource extraction to their per capita incomes will fall by half, and the contribution to their trade balance will decline as more of those resources have to be used by Australians and Canadians instead of being exported.
    , @Wilkey
    I would add that the UK currently has a population of about 68 million, which is almost exactly the population of Canada, Australia and New Zealand combined. It has no shortage of skilled or unskilled labor for anything it wants to do. It has everything it needs to compete.

    Japan, the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Singapore, Israel, Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are not in the European Union, yet economically they all do quite well. The people of the United Kingdom do not need to surrender their freedom, their sovereignty and control of their nation's future to Germany and France in order to remain prosperous.

    The UK, along with so many other EU countries, is effectively a dumping ground for German exports. Germany - no, not China, but Germany - has had the world's largest trade surplus (about $300 billion) for three consecutive years. Its trade surplus with the UK is about $25 billion.

    In the EU the United Kingdom is basically in a position similar to that of California in the US. It attracts lots of rich foreigners because of its high quality of living, and it attracts lots of poor foreigners because incomes are far better than in their native countries. Who gets squeezed in all this? Native-born middle and working class Britons, who expect to have a decent quality of life and to not have to live three families to a home in order to get it.

    Native-born Americans have fled California by the millions since the early 90s. Non-Hispanic whites were about 75% of the population in 1960 but today are barely 40%. From 1990 to 2010 the non-Hispanic white population shrank by 2.1 million.

    But when whites were driven out of California due to high costs and excessive, corrupt, and incompetent government they at least had the option of moving to other English-speaking places.

    As the Brits keep getting squeezed of EU and other immigrants where are they supposed to go? Slovenia?

    Native-born Brits - especially working class Brits - have limited options when it comes to moving some place in the EU where they can understand the language and culture and that won't result in a huge hit to their quality of life. They can't just pack up and move to Oregon or Utah.
  53. @Verymuchalive
    As the Legend denotes, as recently as 1950, Breton had as many as I million speakers. Since the Revolution, at least, France has had a centralising government intolerant of native differences, that is Real Diversity. As recently as 1880, if not later, most inhabitants did not normally speak French. Indeed, many couldn't understand it at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7u8oyk/how_true_is_this_claim_in_1789_50_percent_of_the/


    Once upon a time, America had a decentralised society, with a widely based economy, and regions with peculiar and striking differences. Whatever happened to it ?

    I read Hobsbawm’s book on nationalism and he said anyone who is a nationalist is ipso facto disqualified from having an opinion on nationalism. Would that the same were true of Marxists.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    I do not have high regard for the late Prof Hobsbawn, who was tedious run of the mill Jewish Marxist. I do recommend you read the article in full, and if possible Graham Robb's book.
  54. @Gordo

    I am under the impression that Northern Ireland (plurality Protestant) is not as far along in practicing cultural and racial auto genocide as their Republic of Ireland (majority Catholic) neighbors.
     
    There still exists a certain clannish, outside the Hajnal line aspect to Northen Ireland.

    Also communities there have a certain self sufficiency, both Unionist and Repubs. The government does not have a credible monopoly on violence, paramilitary forces are still armed and capable.

    NornIron will remain White for a while yet and I don't think any Rotherhams will happen soon either.

    Gordo:

    Thanks. Relatively good news, especially your last paragraph.

  55. @NewAnon
    Most Appalachians in the US are of Scots-Irish descent, and they are also an insular bunch. Some think the insularity may have been the main cause of their poverty, with low IQ an indirect result of possible inbreeding. But the Scottish don't seem to be of particularly low IQ, even though they might be highly related.

    Most Appalachians in the US are of Scots-Irish descent, and they are also an insular bunch. Some think the insularity may have been the main cause of their poverty, with low IQ an indirect result of possible inbreeding. But the Scottish don’t seem to be of particularly low IQ, even though they might be highly related.

    Most Appalachian people have up and left. There are tens of millions of people spread all over the country who can trace ancestry back to the original white settlers of Appalachia, and I doubt they differ markedly from other white Americans in IQ. What you have left in rural Appalachia today is a very thin layer of able and responsible folks taking care of a big remnant underclass of people that can’t or aren’t able to leave and who wouldn’t be able to deal with modern city life.

    Appalachians are probably a quarter German on average. Some came down from Pennsylvania with the Scots-Irish in the mid-1700s and some came there directly from Germany. German was spoken in many towns in Western Virginia up through the early 1800s.

    Scotland does swing well above its weight in intellectual history. Watt, Smith, Hume, Carlyle, Scott, Symington, Telford, and so on from a population smaller than that of today’s Phoenix, Arizona.

  56. @The Alarmist
    Sorry! My fat finger was supposed to hit AGREE.

    Fat? No people are fat like Scots are fat. What’s a Scottish salad? A pile of cold chips.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Don't forget the fried Mars Bars ... mmm!

    From Wikipedia:


    The dish originated at chip shops in Scotland as a novelty item, but was never mainstream. Since various mass media began reporting on the practice in the mid-1990s, in part as a commentary on urban Scotland's notoriously unhealthy diet, the popularity of the dish has spread. The product has not received support from Mars, Inc., who said "deep-frying one of our products would go against our commitment to promoting healthy, active lifestyles."
     
    Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

    The commentary from Mars is richer than the dish.

  57. @Ali Choudhury
    Pence had one meeting in Shannon airport 45 miles east of Doonbeg after he landed, Then he stayed overnight at Doonbeg and drove back to the airport the following day to fly to his meetings in Dublin. Flew back to Shannon and headed back to Doonbeg when the day was done. The day after he left.

    That's a lot of time and resource wasted, when Dublin airport is a 30 minute bus ride from the centre.

    Better golf courses on the west side of Ireland than on the east side.

    Somebody could check Bill Clinton’s itineraries in Ireland: he spent so much time in Ballybunion in far western Ireland that there’s a statue of him teeing off there now.

  58. @Faraday's Bobcat
    I read Hobsbawm's book on nationalism and he said anyone who is a nationalist is ipso facto disqualified from having an opinion on nationalism. Would that the same were true of Marxists.

    I do not have high regard for the late Prof Hobsbawn, who was tedious run of the mill Jewish Marxist. I do recommend you read the article in full, and if possible Graham Robb’s book.

  59. @S. Anonyia
    The border area, perhaps. But the impact of the Anglo-Saxon invasions on even England is overstated. Most genetic studies say the most “Germanic” part of England, East Anglia, was genetically more influenced by the later Viking/Scandinavian invasions than the Anglo-Saxon ones. And even there the folks are around 1/3 “native British.” The Anglo Saxons probably were merely an elite superimposed on the preexisting population, sort of like the Normans, they didn’t wipe out many natives, and the native elites were pushed to places like Wales or Cornwall. The Scandinavians seem to have brought a lot more female settlers too, when they came later. I think the whole emphasis on Anglo Saxons origin myths probably arose in the Middle Ages as a kind of anti-Norman/French thing because peasants/ordinary folks in England were dissatisfied and also wanted to claim to have been descended from super warrior invaders- but not the more recent Vikings who had a bad pagan reputation and were also associated with Normandy.

    There are very few extant Celtic place names in England – all those ham, ton, ly, ford, thorpe city/town suffixes are AS, as are county names, suggesting a pretty thorough replacement by the elite.

    • Replies: @dearieme
    Kent, Devon, Cornwall, and Cumberland are old county names that are obviously Celtic (or earlier) in origin.

    Berkshire is a contender.

    Of the modern county names you can chuck in Avon and Wight (Isle of).

    Not a lot but not none.
  60. @S. Anonyia
    The border area, perhaps. But the impact of the Anglo-Saxon invasions on even England is overstated. Most genetic studies say the most “Germanic” part of England, East Anglia, was genetically more influenced by the later Viking/Scandinavian invasions than the Anglo-Saxon ones. And even there the folks are around 1/3 “native British.” The Anglo Saxons probably were merely an elite superimposed on the preexisting population, sort of like the Normans, they didn’t wipe out many natives, and the native elites were pushed to places like Wales or Cornwall. The Scandinavians seem to have brought a lot more female settlers too, when they came later. I think the whole emphasis on Anglo Saxons origin myths probably arose in the Middle Ages as a kind of anti-Norman/French thing because peasants/ordinary folks in England were dissatisfied and also wanted to claim to have been descended from super warrior invaders- but not the more recent Vikings who had a bad pagan reputation and were also associated with Normandy.

    I think the whole emphasis on Anglo Saxons origin myths probably arose in the Middle Ages as a kind of anti-Norman/French thing …

    I wonder if the emphasis on the Anglo-Saxons came much later? Were the Anglo-Saxons given prominence by Americans who wanted to distinguish themselves from the continental European “tyranny” the Normans supposedly brought with them? Is it something that only took off in the 18th or 19th century as new social classes from among “Albion’s seed” grew in prominence? I only came to understand how big a deal some people make of the Anglo-Saxon narrative by seeing discussions online. Growing up and studying history at a Canadian university hadn’t exposed me to it earlier.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Sir Walter Scott basically invented the historical novel in 1814. He wrote a lot about the conflicts in post-1066 between Normans and Saxons. Scott's works were enormously popular and influential in the 19th Century.
    , @S. Anonyia
    Great points. The idea may have arisen later than the Middle Ages. I'm sure the Hanoverian Kings had something to do with it....obviously it would be beneficial to them to popularize the notion that England was thoroughly "Anglo Saxon"....therefore they were "relatives" to their subjects and in a sense just as/possibly more "English" than the previous Stuart rulers. So their continental German origins then would have seemed less foreign to the British. Victoria and Albert even had a statue of themselves commissioned wearing traditional Anglo-Saxon clothing. It's an impressive statue with great posing, too bad neither of them were that good-looking because the faces kind of ruin the romanticist effect they were going for.
  61. @NewAnon
    Most Appalachians in the US are of Scots-Irish descent, and they are also an insular bunch. Some think the insularity may have been the main cause of their poverty, with low IQ an indirect result of possible inbreeding. But the Scottish don't seem to be of particularly low IQ, even though they might be highly related.

    E.g., Scots-Irish non-low IQ William Thomson, 1st. Baron Kelvin was one of the most brilliant scientists of all time.

    • Agree: kikz
    • Replies: @kikz
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000XUAEMG/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
  62. @Verymuchalive
    As the Legend denotes, as recently as 1950, Breton had as many as I million speakers. Since the Revolution, at least, France has had a centralising government intolerant of native differences, that is Real Diversity. As recently as 1880, if not later, most inhabitants did not normally speak French. Indeed, many couldn't understand it at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7u8oyk/how_true_is_this_claim_in_1789_50_percent_of_the/


    Once upon a time, America had a decentralised society, with a widely based economy, and regions with peculiar and striking differences. Whatever happened to it ?

    Interstate and Defense Highways.

  63. @Cagey Beast
    I think the whole emphasis on Anglo Saxons origin myths probably arose in the Middle Ages as a kind of anti-Norman/French thing ...

    I wonder if the emphasis on the Anglo-Saxons came much later? Were the Anglo-Saxons given prominence by Americans who wanted to distinguish themselves from the continental European "tyranny" the Normans supposedly brought with them? Is it something that only took off in the 18th or 19th century as new social classes from among "Albion's seed" grew in prominence? I only came to understand how big a deal some people make of the Anglo-Saxon narrative by seeing discussions online. Growing up and studying history at a Canadian university hadn't exposed me to it earlier.

    Sir Walter Scott basically invented the historical novel in 1814. He wrote a lot about the conflicts in post-1066 between Normans and Saxons. Scott’s works were enormously popular and influential in the 19th Century.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast, S. Anonyia
    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    https://youtu.be/XgJPkKJ16QQ
  64. @Steve Sailer
    Sir Walter Scott basically invented the historical novel in 1814. He wrote a lot about the conflicts in post-1066 between Normans and Saxons. Scott's works were enormously popular and influential in the 19th Century.

  65. @NewAnon
    Most Appalachians in the US are of Scots-Irish descent, and they are also an insular bunch. Some think the insularity may have been the main cause of their poverty, with low IQ an indirect result of possible inbreeding. But the Scottish don't seem to be of particularly low IQ, even though they might be highly related.

    Appalachians are more English than Scots-Irish. Though at this point they are so mixed it hardly matters.

  66. @Verymuchalive
    As the Legend denotes, as recently as 1950, Breton had as many as I million speakers. Since the Revolution, at least, France has had a centralising government intolerant of native differences, that is Real Diversity. As recently as 1880, if not later, most inhabitants did not normally speak French. Indeed, many couldn't understand it at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7u8oyk/how_true_is_this_claim_in_1789_50_percent_of_the/


    Once upon a time, America had a decentralised society, with a widely based economy, and regions with peculiar and striking differences. Whatever happened to it ?

    Television

  67. @Ali Choudhury
    Pence had one meeting in Shannon airport 45 miles east of Doonbeg after he landed, Then he stayed overnight at Doonbeg and drove back to the airport the following day to fly to his meetings in Dublin. Flew back to Shannon and headed back to Doonbeg when the day was done. The day after he left.

    That's a lot of time and resource wasted, when Dublin airport is a 30 minute bus ride from the centre.

    Dublin is a s**thole. I never spend more time there than it takes to get a car and hit the bricks. The whole incident shows eminent good sense on the part of Mr. Pence.

  68. @Ali Choudhury
    Pence had one meeting in Shannon airport 45 miles east of Doonbeg after he landed, Then he stayed overnight at Doonbeg and drove back to the airport the following day to fly to his meetings in Dublin. Flew back to Shannon and headed back to Doonbeg when the day was done. The day after he left.

    That's a lot of time and resource wasted, when Dublin airport is a 30 minute bus ride from the centre.

    So Obama crucified and destroyed a German family that wanted to homeschool their kids and Pence once golfed. Obama did everything he could to personally encourage civil violence and Pence doesn’t plan vacations with the help of those AAA guides.
    One day the headline will be that Trump racistly wears evil shoes.

  69. @El Dato
    These landscapes are literally white privilege.

    These landscapes are literally white privilege.

    The privilege was earned the hard way, as the landscapes themselves tell us.

  70. It shows that Donegal is different from both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. And in Ireland, I wonder whether they distinguished between Protestants with presumably English or Scottish ancestry, and Catholics, with presumably Irish ancestry.

  71. @Flip
    Same thing with Ireland. If they are going to be a mini Brazil, why did they fight to leave the UK?

    Have you actually been to Ireland? It is still incredibly Irish. Largest minority are Poles and French/SE Asian guest workers in hotels. Even Dublin was really Irish aside from the taxi drivers who seemed like they had nothing to do.

    It also seemed quite wealthy and bucolic and there was a sense of genuine community, especially in the Western part of the island. Little old ladies go walking wherever they want without a worry, teenagers actually get into shenanigans outside instead of playing video games, cows/sheeps cause traffic jams on country roads and cheerful moms pushing strollers everywhere in the suburbs/small towns.

    My impression is that Ireland sure benefited from emigration and depopulation.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Unfortunately, the "Irish Savant" presents an almost altogether different picture! (Although he does seem comfortable with some aspects of Polish immigration.)
  72. @Cagey Beast
    I think the whole emphasis on Anglo Saxons origin myths probably arose in the Middle Ages as a kind of anti-Norman/French thing ...

    I wonder if the emphasis on the Anglo-Saxons came much later? Were the Anglo-Saxons given prominence by Americans who wanted to distinguish themselves from the continental European "tyranny" the Normans supposedly brought with them? Is it something that only took off in the 18th or 19th century as new social classes from among "Albion's seed" grew in prominence? I only came to understand how big a deal some people make of the Anglo-Saxon narrative by seeing discussions online. Growing up and studying history at a Canadian university hadn't exposed me to it earlier.

    Great points. The idea may have arisen later than the Middle Ages. I’m sure the Hanoverian Kings had something to do with it….obviously it would be beneficial to them to popularize the notion that England was thoroughly “Anglo Saxon”….therefore they were “relatives” to their subjects and in a sense just as/possibly more “English” than the previous Stuart rulers. So their continental German origins then would have seemed less foreign to the British. Victoria and Albert even had a statue of themselves commissioned wearing traditional Anglo-Saxon clothing. It’s an impressive statue with great posing, too bad neither of them were that good-looking because the faces kind of ruin the romanticist effect they were going for.

    • Replies: @dearieme
    The notion of a "Norman yoke" is apparently a 17th century thing.
    , @Anonymous
    William the Conqueror had some Breton ancestry, and many of his soldiers were Bretons. His invasion wasn't an invasion -- it was the original Britons reclaiming their homeland.

    The mythology of King Arthur was also popularized by the Normans, displacing Anglo-Saxon/Viking stories such as Beowulf. Again, this served to emphasize the Norman/Briton connection and to legitimize Norman rule. (Before the Normans, the English had no interest in Arthur.)
  73. @Ali Choudhury
    Ireland's GDP is artificially inflated by lots of corporations being headquartered there for tax reasons, a quarter of its GDP is accounted for by multinational royalty payments.

    Canada and,Australia's wealth is largely based on natural resource exports, they will level off now Chinese growth and the commodities boom is flat-lining.

    Ireland’s GDP is artificially inflated by lots of corporations being headquartered there for tax reasons, a quarter of its GDP is accounted for by multinational royalty payments. Canada and Australia’s wealth is largely based on natural resource exports, they will level off now Chinese growth and the commodities boom is flat-lining.

    I suspected that about Ireland.

    I certainly agree with the fact that Canada’s and Australia’s (and the USA’s) per capita incomes are boosted by resource extraction, but that is actually a strong incentive to keep immigration rates low.

    While the value of various natural resources may go up and down, there value is never going away. If Canada and Australia double their populations then the contribution of resource extraction to their per capita incomes will fall by half, and the contribution to their trade balance will decline as more of those resources have to be used by Australians and Canadians instead of being exported.

  74. Incidentally, looking at the list of per capita incomes by country that Afghanistan is in the bottom 10 on two of the lists and just missed the bottom 10 on the third.

    The United States military has been in Afghanistan for going on 18 years now, and that nation still has a per capita income of $619 per person, at best, and a GDP of $22 billion. That is probably less than what the American military has been spending there for the last 18 years.

    I sure as hell hope we’re doing something very worthwhile there that our government just can’t tell us about, because otherwise it may be one of the greatest money pits in American history.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    A sane country would arrest all the people involved in perpetuating the money pit. At this point forget making Puerto Rico the 51st state, it might as well be Afghanistan. Might be cheaper. Personally I think our military (but really mostly the private contractors, military is likely just “there” to oversee things) is probably engaged in drug trafficking, human trafficking and mining rare materials there. Maybe it’s not even that sinister for the Afghans, but more sinister for us: they are just there to fuck around and waste money and have something to do & justify their jobs.

    Only way our adventures wouldn’t be a waste is if there is a damn star gate there or something. Or maybe an entrance to the hollow earth, if we want to get really weird here.
  75. @Ali Choudhury
    Ireland's GDP is artificially inflated by lots of corporations being headquartered there for tax reasons, a quarter of its GDP is accounted for by multinational royalty payments.

    Canada and,Australia's wealth is largely based on natural resource exports, they will level off now Chinese growth and the commodities boom is flat-lining.

    I would add that the UK currently has a population of about 68 million, which is almost exactly the population of Canada, Australia and New Zealand combined. It has no shortage of skilled or unskilled labor for anything it wants to do. It has everything it needs to compete.

    Japan, the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Singapore, Israel, Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are not in the European Union, yet economically they all do quite well. The people of the United Kingdom do not need to surrender their freedom, their sovereignty and control of their nation’s future to Germany and France in order to remain prosperous.

    The UK, along with so many other EU countries, is effectively a dumping ground for German exports. Germany – no, not China, but Germany – has had the world’s largest trade surplus (about $300 billion) for three consecutive years. Its trade surplus with the UK is about $25 billion.

    In the EU the United Kingdom is basically in a position similar to that of California in the US. It attracts lots of rich foreigners because of its high quality of living, and it attracts lots of poor foreigners because incomes are far better than in their native countries. Who gets squeezed in all this? Native-born middle and working class Britons, who expect to have a decent quality of life and to not have to live three families to a home in order to get it.

    Native-born Americans have fled California by the millions since the early 90s. Non-Hispanic whites were about 75% of the population in 1960 but today are barely 40%. From 1990 to 2010 the non-Hispanic white population shrank by 2.1 million.

    But when whites were driven out of California due to high costs and excessive, corrupt, and incompetent government they at least had the option of moving to other English-speaking places.

    As the Brits keep getting squeezed of EU and other immigrants where are they supposed to go? Slovenia?

    Native-born Brits – especially working class Brits – have limited options when it comes to moving some place in the EU where they can understand the language and culture and that won’t result in a huge hit to their quality of life. They can’t just pack up and move to Oregon or Utah.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    XThere are a surprising number of Brits working and living in Europe, particularly those in their 20s and 30s. Widespread English fluency means they can work in a lot of countries. A big chunk of the UK manufacturing, auto, pharmaceutical and agricultural industries are reliant on integrated supply chains with Europe, plenty of companies here have manufacturing lines that would shut down if there is more than a day of delay at ports and on roads. So maintaining a smooth trading relationship is a lot more important than it would be for Japan, Israel, Canada etc.

    Anyway the country will be leaving the EU eventually and EU immigration has already fallen off, partly because of the depreciation of the pound.

  76. @Wilkey
    Incidentally, looking at the list of per capita incomes by country that Afghanistan is in the bottom 10 on two of the lists and just missed the bottom 10 on the third.

    The United States military has been in Afghanistan for going on 18 years now, and that nation still has a per capita income of $619 per person, at best, and a GDP of $22 billion. That is probably less than what the American military has been spending there for the last 18 years.

    I sure as hell hope we're doing something very worthwhile there that our government just can't tell us about, because otherwise it may be one of the greatest money pits in American history.

    A sane country would arrest all the people involved in perpetuating the money pit. At this point forget making Puerto Rico the 51st state, it might as well be Afghanistan. Might be cheaper. Personally I think our military (but really mostly the private contractors, military is likely just “there” to oversee things) is probably engaged in drug trafficking, human trafficking and mining rare materials there. Maybe it’s not even that sinister for the Afghans, but more sinister for us: they are just there to fuck around and waste money and have something to do & justify their jobs.

    Only way our adventures wouldn’t be a waste is if there is a damn star gate there or something. Or maybe an entrance to the hollow earth, if we want to get really weird here.

  77. @Wilkey
    I would add that the UK currently has a population of about 68 million, which is almost exactly the population of Canada, Australia and New Zealand combined. It has no shortage of skilled or unskilled labor for anything it wants to do. It has everything it needs to compete.

    Japan, the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Singapore, Israel, Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are not in the European Union, yet economically they all do quite well. The people of the United Kingdom do not need to surrender their freedom, their sovereignty and control of their nation's future to Germany and France in order to remain prosperous.

    The UK, along with so many other EU countries, is effectively a dumping ground for German exports. Germany - no, not China, but Germany - has had the world's largest trade surplus (about $300 billion) for three consecutive years. Its trade surplus with the UK is about $25 billion.

    In the EU the United Kingdom is basically in a position similar to that of California in the US. It attracts lots of rich foreigners because of its high quality of living, and it attracts lots of poor foreigners because incomes are far better than in their native countries. Who gets squeezed in all this? Native-born middle and working class Britons, who expect to have a decent quality of life and to not have to live three families to a home in order to get it.

    Native-born Americans have fled California by the millions since the early 90s. Non-Hispanic whites were about 75% of the population in 1960 but today are barely 40%. From 1990 to 2010 the non-Hispanic white population shrank by 2.1 million.

    But when whites were driven out of California due to high costs and excessive, corrupt, and incompetent government they at least had the option of moving to other English-speaking places.

    As the Brits keep getting squeezed of EU and other immigrants where are they supposed to go? Slovenia?

    Native-born Brits - especially working class Brits - have limited options when it comes to moving some place in the EU where they can understand the language and culture and that won't result in a huge hit to their quality of life. They can't just pack up and move to Oregon or Utah.

    XThere are a surprising number of Brits working and living in Europe, particularly those in their 20s and 30s. Widespread English fluency means they can work in a lot of countries. A big chunk of the UK manufacturing, auto, pharmaceutical and agricultural industries are reliant on integrated supply chains with Europe, plenty of companies here have manufacturing lines that would shut down if there is more than a day of delay at ports and on roads. So maintaining a smooth trading relationship is a lot more important than it would be for Japan, Israel, Canada etc.

    Anyway the country will be leaving the EU eventually and EU immigration has already fallen off, partly because of the depreciation of the pound.

  78. @Ancient Briton
    There are very few extant Celtic place names in England - all those ham, ton, ly, ford, thorpe city/town suffixes are AS, as are county names, suggesting a pretty thorough replacement by the elite.

    Kent, Devon, Cornwall, and Cumberland are old county names that are obviously Celtic (or earlier) in origin.

    Berkshire is a contender.

    Of the modern county names you can chuck in Avon and Wight (Isle of).

    Not a lot but not none.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    English settlements are almost entirely mediaeval in origin. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority have English names, less have Danish or Norse names, some have French names. Urban life, i.e. towns , collapsed in the mid-C6th AD. As an example of this, the walls of Roman London and the urban areas of Saxon/Norman London do not overlap. Modern London is an entirely new post-Roman foundation.
    However, many natural features retain their names of Celtic, pre-Indo-European or Roman origin. A number of towns and cities have Chester, Caer, or Caster names indicating their Roman origins.
    A very few have names very close to their Roman names, notably London ( Londonium ) and Lincoln ( Lindum Colonia, from the clerical abbreviation Lin. Coln. )
    Always pleased to help an old Dearie.
  79. @S. Anonyia
    Great points. The idea may have arisen later than the Middle Ages. I'm sure the Hanoverian Kings had something to do with it....obviously it would be beneficial to them to popularize the notion that England was thoroughly "Anglo Saxon"....therefore they were "relatives" to their subjects and in a sense just as/possibly more "English" than the previous Stuart rulers. So their continental German origins then would have seemed less foreign to the British. Victoria and Albert even had a statue of themselves commissioned wearing traditional Anglo-Saxon clothing. It's an impressive statue with great posing, too bad neither of them were that good-looking because the faces kind of ruin the romanticist effect they were going for.

    The notion of a “Norman yoke” is apparently a 17th century thing.

  80. @prime noticer
    RIP Franco Columbu, Pictish Scout in Conan The Barbarian.

    https://i.imgur.com/TJJrMp0.png

    The Sardinian Samson makes you think about how tough the Yamnaya were to conquer those Neolithic farmers.

  81. @Anon
    I once tried to look up the Y-DNA of every male ancestor spread out through my entire tree, expecting to find a lot of R1b guys, but to my surprise, most of them came from the I lineages. The I lines are an older set of Northwest European lineages in the process of being swamped and overrun by the R1b types. Since most of my male ancestors immigrated to the US in the 1600s, it looks like the I-guys were not living in the best of circumstances back in Europe, and they looked around and said, 'Let's get the heck out of here for the New World. We're being muscled out and pushed around.'

    Y-DNA I are the first Homo sapiens in Europe. The R guy expelled them from south east Europe (still majority) in Balkan and they survived in Scandinavia (one third).

  82. @Clifford Brown
    Despite the recent adaptation of Presbyterianism, The Outer Hebrides are Irish of a sort. Trump is Irish even if he might not admit it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3MzZgPBL3Q

    Scottish Highlanders put the planet to shame with their Psalms to the Lord.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67jbBYbcqao

    They are very very Protestant in Lewis, and Gaelic psalms don’t sound Irish to me, more Korean. As recently noted, the Hebrideans do have a lot of Irish ancestry, but then a lot of Irish invaded Scotland in past times.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/08/27/1904761116

    One annoying thing about this paper (to a cursory glance by an ill-informed person like me) is that they don’t seem to discriminate between male and female DNA.

    “This modern genetic structure suggests a northwestern British or Irish source population for the ancient Gaels that contributed to the founding of Iceland”

    I know the Vikings found Scottish monks there when they first came, but I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority of Irish/Scottish DNA in Iceland will be from women taken by force in raids on Irish and Scottish coasts, not from Irishmen sailing there.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/dna-study-reveals-fate-of-irish-women-taken-by-vikings-as-slaves-to-iceland-1.3521206

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    It is widely accepted that a lot of the mixed Gael-Norse population of the Western Isles participated in the colonisation of Iceland. Some may have moved very early, but there seem to be 3 main periods. After the Battle of Clontarf, lots of Norse from Dublin and the Western Isles left for Iceland, Thereafter, there was less immigration, and a final spurt after the Battle of Largs ( 1263 ). Most were in Family Groups. There were not vast numbers of serfs, slaves or dependents.
    The end result was a much more Gaelic Western Isles and North West Highlands.
    , @Snootybaronet
    Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are dialects of the same language. I had an uncle, a native Irish speaker from the Connemara Gaeltacht in Ireland, he had no trouble communicating with Scottish Gaelic speakers from the Hebrides and the Highlands while working in England in WWII. Whereas, he had a helluva time speaking with native Irish speakers from West Donegal in Ireland.
  83. @Ancient Briton
    E.g., Scots-Irish non-low IQ William Thomson, 1st. Baron Kelvin was one of the most brilliant scientists of all time.

  84. @dr kill
    Fat? No people are fat like Scots are fat. What's a Scottish salad? A pile of cold chips.

    Don’t forget the fried Mars Bars … mmm!

    From Wikipedia:

    The dish originated at chip shops in Scotland as a novelty item, but was never mainstream. Since various mass media began reporting on the practice in the mid-1990s, in part as a commentary on urban Scotland’s notoriously unhealthy diet, the popularity of the dish has spread. The product has not received support from Mars, Inc., who said “deep-frying one of our products would go against our commitment to promoting healthy, active lifestyles.”

    Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

    The commentary from Mars is richer than the dish.

  85. the Isle of Man is genetically predominantly Scottish.

    Should the name be changed to the Isle of Scots-Man?

    • Replies: @Snootybaronet
    Oddly enough the Celtic language known as Manx (now extinct as a native language, there is a revival going on).... is considered close to Irish Gaelic. The longtime leader of Ireland, Eamon DeValera actually went to visit the last surviving native speaker of Manx in the 1930s.
  86. @dearieme
    Kent, Devon, Cornwall, and Cumberland are old county names that are obviously Celtic (or earlier) in origin.

    Berkshire is a contender.

    Of the modern county names you can chuck in Avon and Wight (Isle of).

    Not a lot but not none.

    English settlements are almost entirely mediaeval in origin. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority have English names, less have Danish or Norse names, some have French names. Urban life, i.e. towns , collapsed in the mid-C6th AD. As an example of this, the walls of Roman London and the urban areas of Saxon/Norman London do not overlap. Modern London is an entirely new post-Roman foundation.
    However, many natural features retain their names of Celtic, pre-Indo-European or Roman origin. A number of towns and cities have Chester, Caer, or Caster names indicating their Roman origins.
    A very few have names very close to their Roman names, notably London ( Londonium ) and Lincoln ( Lindum Colonia, from the clerical abbreviation Lin. Coln. )
    Always pleased to help an old Dearie.

  87. @YetAnotherAnon
    They are very very Protestant in Lewis, and Gaelic psalms don't sound Irish to me, more Korean. As recently noted, the Hebrideans do have a lot of Irish ancestry, but then a lot of Irish invaded Scotland in past times.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/08/27/1904761116

    One annoying thing about this paper (to a cursory glance by an ill-informed person like me) is that they don't seem to discriminate between male and female DNA.

    "This modern genetic structure suggests a northwestern British or Irish source population for the ancient Gaels that contributed to the founding of Iceland"


    I know the Vikings found Scottish monks there when they first came, but I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of Irish/Scottish DNA in Iceland will be from women taken by force in raids on Irish and Scottish coasts, not from Irishmen sailing there.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/dna-study-reveals-fate-of-irish-women-taken-by-vikings-as-slaves-to-iceland-1.3521206

    It is widely accepted that a lot of the mixed Gael-Norse population of the Western Isles participated in the colonisation of Iceland. Some may have moved very early, but there seem to be 3 main periods. After the Battle of Clontarf, lots of Norse from Dublin and the Western Isles left for Iceland, Thereafter, there was less immigration, and a final spurt after the Battle of Largs ( 1263 ). Most were in Family Groups. There were not vast numbers of serfs, slaves or dependents.
    The end result was a much more Gaelic Western Isles and North West Highlands.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    There were also the Gallowglass, who were ...

    ... a class of elite mercenary warriors who were principally members of the Norse-Gaelic clans of Scotland between the mid 13th century and late 16th century. As Scots, they were Gaels and shared a common background and language with the Irish, but as they were descendants of 10th century Norse settlers who had intermarried with the local population in western Scotland, the Irish called them Gall Gaeil ("foreign Gaels").
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallowglass

    I'm related to them on my father's side.

    The Wikipedia entry on the Norse Gaels looks interesting:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse%E2%80%93Gaels

    All this will only confuse and anger those here who don't want the Germanic Übermensch and Irish Aborigines to have never mixed.
  88. @James Bowery
    There needs to be a study of the correlations between what Colin Campbell (head of Clan Campbell) has called "The American Clearances" and the clearances of the Scots (and Scotch-Irish) to the new world. Measuring the selection pressures in terms of predisposition for freedom by may shed light on the biodiversity of individualism thence America's settler culture culture of individual integrity.

    Haven’t Jack Bumsted and James Hunter already written extensively about these matters? The latter’s, A Dance Called America, is an exceptional book about Highland immigration to the New World. Both argue that a desire for cultural continuity was a decisive factor in the “push” away from Scotland and the “pull” to North America where Scots could still settle in clan or extended family groups through the 1820’s. Gaelic programming was still broadcast on the CBC to a wide audience the 1930’s.

  89. Anonymous[219] • Disclaimer says:
    @S. Anonyia
    Great points. The idea may have arisen later than the Middle Ages. I'm sure the Hanoverian Kings had something to do with it....obviously it would be beneficial to them to popularize the notion that England was thoroughly "Anglo Saxon"....therefore they were "relatives" to their subjects and in a sense just as/possibly more "English" than the previous Stuart rulers. So their continental German origins then would have seemed less foreign to the British. Victoria and Albert even had a statue of themselves commissioned wearing traditional Anglo-Saxon clothing. It's an impressive statue with great posing, too bad neither of them were that good-looking because the faces kind of ruin the romanticist effect they were going for.

    William the Conqueror had some Breton ancestry, and many of his soldiers were Bretons. His invasion wasn’t an invasion — it was the original Britons reclaiming their homeland.

    The mythology of King Arthur was also popularized by the Normans, displacing Anglo-Saxon/Viking stories such as Beowulf. Again, this served to emphasize the Norman/Briton connection and to legitimize Norman rule. (Before the Normans, the English had no interest in Arthur.)

  90. @Verymuchalive
    It is widely accepted that a lot of the mixed Gael-Norse population of the Western Isles participated in the colonisation of Iceland. Some may have moved very early, but there seem to be 3 main periods. After the Battle of Clontarf, lots of Norse from Dublin and the Western Isles left for Iceland, Thereafter, there was less immigration, and a final spurt after the Battle of Largs ( 1263 ). Most were in Family Groups. There were not vast numbers of serfs, slaves or dependents.
    The end result was a much more Gaelic Western Isles and North West Highlands.

    There were also the Gallowglass, who were …

    … a class of elite mercenary warriors who were principally members of the Norse-Gaelic clans of Scotland between the mid 13th century and late 16th century. As Scots, they were Gaels and shared a common background and language with the Irish, but as they were descendants of 10th century Norse settlers who had intermarried with the local population in western Scotland, the Irish called them Gall Gaeil (“foreign Gaels”).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallowglass

    I’m related to them on my father’s side.

    The Wikipedia entry on the Norse Gaels looks interesting:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse%E2%80%93Gaels

    All this will only confuse and anger those here who don’t want the Germanic Übermensch and Irish Aborigines to have never mixed.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    Norse Settlement in Scotland was almost entirely in the Northern Isles, Caithness and north Sutherland and the Western Isles, with small pockets in the rest of the Hebrides and adjoining parts of the mainland. After the Battle of Largs, all apart from Orkney, Shetland and Caithness, became part of the Kingdom of Scots. Apart from these 3 areas, nearly all the remaining Norse speakers as well as many of Norse-Gael ancestry left for Iceland shortly thereafter. The Western Isles and other West Coast areas quickly reverted to monoglot Gaelic.
    Caithness and the Northern Isles remained under the Norwegian, later the Danish Crown until the late C15th. Even today, the change from Gaelic to Norse place-names as you leave Sutherland for Caithness is very abrupt. The 2 towns in Caithness have names of Norse origin - Wick and Thurso ( Thor's River ! ).

    As for Irish Abos, I would be careful what you say. The Celts, a Nordic people, came from continental Europe. There had already been a several waves of settlement previously. I take it you have Irish ancestry. Well I'm a Scot. I take it we would both have small amounts of ancest
  91. @Cagey Beast
    There were also the Gallowglass, who were ...

    ... a class of elite mercenary warriors who were principally members of the Norse-Gaelic clans of Scotland between the mid 13th century and late 16th century. As Scots, they were Gaels and shared a common background and language with the Irish, but as they were descendants of 10th century Norse settlers who had intermarried with the local population in western Scotland, the Irish called them Gall Gaeil ("foreign Gaels").
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallowglass

    I'm related to them on my father's side.

    The Wikipedia entry on the Norse Gaels looks interesting:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse%E2%80%93Gaels

    All this will only confuse and anger those here who don't want the Germanic Übermensch and Irish Aborigines to have never mixed.

    Norse Settlement in Scotland was almost entirely in the Northern Isles, Caithness and north Sutherland and the Western Isles, with small pockets in the rest of the Hebrides and adjoining parts of the mainland. After the Battle of Largs, all apart from Orkney, Shetland and Caithness, became part of the Kingdom of Scots. Apart from these 3 areas, nearly all the remaining Norse speakers as well as many of Norse-Gael ancestry left for Iceland shortly thereafter. The Western Isles and other West Coast areas quickly reverted to monoglot Gaelic.
    Caithness and the Northern Isles remained under the Norwegian, later the Danish Crown until the late C15th. Even today, the change from Gaelic to Norse place-names as you leave Sutherland for Caithness is very abrupt. The 2 towns in Caithness have names of Norse origin – Wick and Thurso ( Thor’s River ! ).

    As for Irish Abos, I would be careful what you say. The Celts, a Nordic people, came from continental Europe. There had already been a several waves of settlement previously. I take it you have Irish ancestry. Well I’m a Scot. I take it we would both have small amounts of ancest

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    continuation.

    I take it we both have small amounts ancestry from Western European Hunter Gatherers ( WEHG ) and the original Neolithic farmers. But genetic evidence seems to indicate that Yamnaya invaders virtually wiped out descendants of the first two about 4,500 years ago.. Abos aren't what they used be, I'm afraid

  92. @Verymuchalive
    Norse Settlement in Scotland was almost entirely in the Northern Isles, Caithness and north Sutherland and the Western Isles, with small pockets in the rest of the Hebrides and adjoining parts of the mainland. After the Battle of Largs, all apart from Orkney, Shetland and Caithness, became part of the Kingdom of Scots. Apart from these 3 areas, nearly all the remaining Norse speakers as well as many of Norse-Gael ancestry left for Iceland shortly thereafter. The Western Isles and other West Coast areas quickly reverted to monoglot Gaelic.
    Caithness and the Northern Isles remained under the Norwegian, later the Danish Crown until the late C15th. Even today, the change from Gaelic to Norse place-names as you leave Sutherland for Caithness is very abrupt. The 2 towns in Caithness have names of Norse origin - Wick and Thurso ( Thor's River ! ).

    As for Irish Abos, I would be careful what you say. The Celts, a Nordic people, came from continental Europe. There had already been a several waves of settlement previously. I take it you have Irish ancestry. Well I'm a Scot. I take it we would both have small amounts of ancest

    continuation.

    I take it we both have small amounts ancestry from Western European Hunter Gatherers ( WEHG ) and the original Neolithic farmers. But genetic evidence seems to indicate that Yamnaya invaders virtually wiped out descendants of the first two about 4,500 years ago.. Abos aren’t what they used be, I’m afraid

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
  93. @Anonymous

    Experts found Orkney and Shetland had the highest levels of Norwegian ancestry outside Scandinavia and that many islands within the archipelagos had their own unique genetic identity.
     
    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish--the ancient Gaelic language, I mean--is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    There is no Gaelic spoken in Shetland or Orkney. Gaelic survives in parts of the Hebrides and in parts of the Highlands.

  94. @Anonymous

    Experts found Orkney and Shetland had the highest levels of Norwegian ancestry outside Scandinavia and that many islands within the archipelagos had their own unique genetic identity.
     
    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish--the ancient Gaelic language, I mean--is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    There is no Gaelic spoken in Shetland or Orkney. Gaelic survives in parts of the Hebrides and in parts of the Highlands.

  95. @Anonymous

    Experts found Orkney and Shetland had the highest levels of Norwegian ancestry outside Scandinavia and that many islands within the archipelagos had their own unique genetic identity.
     
    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish--the ancient Gaelic language, I mean--is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    There is no Gaelic spoken in Shetland or Orkney. Gaelic survives in parts of the Hebrides and in parts of the Highlands.

  96. @Anonymous

    Experts found Orkney and Shetland had the highest levels of Norwegian ancestry outside Scandinavia and that many islands within the archipelagos had their own unique genetic identity.
     
    Ironically, although they are largely Scandinavian by descent, those far northern islands are about the last place in Scotland where Scottish--the ancient Gaelic language, I mean--is still spoken natively. Everywhere else in Scotland it died out long ago.

    No, Gaelic is still spoken in islands of the Outer Hebrides and in parts of the Highlands. Gaelic is not spoken in Shetland or Orkney.

  97. @Clifford Brown
    What language do they speak in the Outer Hebrides? Scottish? Olde Norse?

    Gaelic….

  98. @YetAnotherAnon
    They are very very Protestant in Lewis, and Gaelic psalms don't sound Irish to me, more Korean. As recently noted, the Hebrideans do have a lot of Irish ancestry, but then a lot of Irish invaded Scotland in past times.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/08/27/1904761116

    One annoying thing about this paper (to a cursory glance by an ill-informed person like me) is that they don't seem to discriminate between male and female DNA.

    "This modern genetic structure suggests a northwestern British or Irish source population for the ancient Gaels that contributed to the founding of Iceland"


    I know the Vikings found Scottish monks there when they first came, but I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of Irish/Scottish DNA in Iceland will be from women taken by force in raids on Irish and Scottish coasts, not from Irishmen sailing there.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/dna-study-reveals-fate-of-irish-women-taken-by-vikings-as-slaves-to-iceland-1.3521206

    Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are dialects of the same language. I had an uncle, a native Irish speaker from the Connemara Gaeltacht in Ireland, he had no trouble communicating with Scottish Gaelic speakers from the Hebrides and the Highlands while working in England in WWII. Whereas, he had a helluva time speaking with native Irish speakers from West Donegal in Ireland.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    My Donegal father and my Connacht mother found each other’s Irish to be amusing. My father was raised in an Irish speaking household whilst my mother learned her Irish in school. I used to sit in a tiny little pub in Southwest Donegal and listen to my Uncle and his friends rattle away in Irish; those days are gone now, most of them having died.
  99. @Mike Zwick

    the Isle of Man is genetically predominantly Scottish.
     
    Should the name be changed to the Isle of Scots-Man?

    Oddly enough the Celtic language known as Manx (now extinct as a native language, there is a revival going on)…. is considered close to Irish Gaelic. The longtime leader of Ireland, Eamon DeValera actually went to visit the last surviving native speaker of Manx in the 1930s.

  100. @Snootybaronet
    Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are dialects of the same language. I had an uncle, a native Irish speaker from the Connemara Gaeltacht in Ireland, he had no trouble communicating with Scottish Gaelic speakers from the Hebrides and the Highlands while working in England in WWII. Whereas, he had a helluva time speaking with native Irish speakers from West Donegal in Ireland.

    My Donegal father and my Connacht mother found each other’s Irish to be amusing. My father was raised in an Irish speaking household whilst my mother learned her Irish in school. I used to sit in a tiny little pub in Southwest Donegal and listen to my Uncle and his friends rattle away in Irish; those days are gone now, most of them having died.

  101. @S. Anonyia
    Have you actually been to Ireland? It is still incredibly Irish. Largest minority are Poles and French/SE Asian guest workers in hotels. Even Dublin was really Irish aside from the taxi drivers who seemed like they had nothing to do.

    It also seemed quite wealthy and bucolic and there was a sense of genuine community, especially in the Western part of the island. Little old ladies go walking wherever they want without a worry, teenagers actually get into shenanigans outside instead of playing video games, cows/sheeps cause traffic jams on country roads and cheerful moms pushing strollers everywhere in the suburbs/small towns.

    My impression is that Ireland sure benefited from emigration and depopulation.

    Unfortunately, the “Irish Savant” presents an almost altogether different picture! (Although he does seem comfortable with some aspects of Polish immigration.)

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS