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Scorsese's "Rolling Thunder Revue" Bob Dylan Documentary
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Now viewable on Netflix, Martin Scorsese’s documentary of Bob Dylan’s 1975-76 live performance peak, the Rolling Thunder Revue, records Dylan at his presumptive best in his mid 30s, with Bowie guitarist Mick Ronson and T-Bone Burnett:

 

Dylan at his peak:

“Isis” with Scarlett Rivera:

With performances by Joan Baez and Joni Mitchell:

Here’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam Shepard, rather nervous about what Dylan will think.

The only disappointment in Scorsese’s documentary is that it leaves out Dylan’s greatest 1970s song Tangled Up in Blue. So as public service, here’s what Scorsese left out: Dylan’s rather hoarse rendition of this Tangled Up in Blue (a reference to Joni Mitchell’s 1971 album Blue).

A friend of mine from high school, “Jeff Worthing,” played this song for me on our way to the 20th high school anniversary reunion:

So now I’m goin’ back again
I got to get to her somehow
All the people we used to know
They’re an illusion to me now
Some are mathematicians
Some are carpenters’ wives
Don’t know how it all got started
I don’t know what they’re doin’ with their lives
But me, I’m still on the road
Headin’ for another joint
We always did feel the same
We just saw it from a different point of view
Tangled up in blue

As you may have heard, about 10% of the documentary is a Spinal Tap-style spoof with fictitious characters, such as a mobbed-up promoter and a teenage Sharon Stone. I would have instead gone for adding a little boy Adam Sandler to the tour, since Bob and Adam are almost identical at this point.

 
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  1. A big part of local lore; the rehearsals for that tour. It happened at the site of the first golf course in Florida too! I wonder if some of this is in the movie?

  2. watch it after the dylan

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    Van Morrison's "Caravan" is the best performance of the concert, 2h20m-ish. It amped up the crowd and might be the original mic drop. Youtube has great color versions.
  3. It’s probably worth mentioning that this is, in a way, the companion piece to Martin Scorsese’s 2005 documentary No Direction Home, about the 1960s Dylan. And that documentary, in turn, leaned heavily on outtake footage from D.A. Pennebaker’s 1967 documentary about Bob Dylan’s 1965 U.K. tour, Don’t Look Back. Both are superb viewing, though, and not just for Dylan fans.

    • Replies: @Walsh2
    Hopefully he stops with the 70s. I saw Dylan in the 80s and he was awful - it was 2 hours of what sounded like my grandfather coughing up phlegm set to music. To be fair, it wasn't as bad as Jethro Tull. I knew I was in for a long night with that one when Ian Anderson burst on stage dressed in medieval garb, flute in hand, and began "jamming." I think the acronym WTF accurately describes the looks our party all gave each other.
  4. I just listened to Joni Mitchell’s interview on the Baby Boomers

    Thanks Steve! Never would have googled her without this post. Screw Dylan

    • Replies: @Anon
    Mitchell's certainly an expert on spoiled Boomer jerks. She abandoned a daughter because keeping a baby would have gotten in the way of her self-indulgent Boomer lifestyle.

    https://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=82
  5. Larry Sloman’s On the Road with Bob Dylan is a pretty good account of that tour and the people who came along. Some where along the tour, Rolling Stone mag fires the author and Dylan summons him to offer a per diam so he can keep writing.

    Not sure I would enjoy the book today, but it’s the best book I remember reading about Dylan, and I read them all up to 2000 or so.

  6. @PiltdownMan
    It's probably worth mentioning that this is, in a way, the companion piece to Martin Scorsese's 2005 documentary No Direction Home, about the 1960s Dylan. And that documentary, in turn, leaned heavily on outtake footage from D.A. Pennebaker's 1967 documentary about Bob Dylan's 1965 U.K. tour, Don't Look Back. Both are superb viewing, though, and not just for Dylan fans.

    https://youtu.be/kh1MZxgI_Pc

    Hopefully he stops with the 70s. I saw Dylan in the 80s and he was awful – it was 2 hours of what sounded like my grandfather coughing up phlegm set to music. To be fair, it wasn’t as bad as Jethro Tull. I knew I was in for a long night with that one when Ian Anderson burst on stage dressed in medieval garb, flute in hand, and began “jamming.” I think the acronym WTF accurately describes the looks our party all gave each other.

    • LOL: bomag
  7. I won’t get into my apparent inability to have, you know, actually wanted to listen to Bob Dylan at any point in the last 54 years. But here’s another cinematic tribute to his peculiar genius that I like a lot:

    • Replies: @Flemur
    I've always wondered what happened to the mouse with the overbite, can you see-'im?
    , @Lot
    From 1966, a minor hit in Texas by the band Mouse and the Traps:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q3D8bnvyQs
  8. Somebody will follow up this post who knows a lot more about the event and the film than I do, I’m sure, but The Last Waltz has always been my favorite concert movie/documentary. I thought it was magic captured on film. I used to pull it out and watch it at least once a year, but I haven’t watched in a while now. Electric Dylan showed up to play with his back-up band. Of all the guests who played in that show I found Ronnie Hawkins the only one to be less impressive than Dylan, but that’s just me.
    Being a Southern Man, I never needed Neil Young around anyhow, but even with coke in his nose he put on quite a performance. The version of Helpless they did, with Joni Mitchell singing in the background, still gives me chills. They did the best version ever of The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down ever recorded.

    • Replies: @Sane Left Libertarian
    You should track down Levon Helm's autobiography This Wheel's On Fire (c. 1990) for some background on this film and on The Band. Terrific read. Great movie.
    , @Malcolm X-Lax
    It is a great film. For me the highlight has always been Van Morrison's exuberant performance of Caravan. The DVD commentary to the film is excellent, too. Apparently, Morrison was terrified of performing live on this night (respecting the gravity of the company he was in) but boy does he pull it off. A standout performance on a night where every performance stood out.
    , @PiltdownMan
    The Band's performance of Mystery Train in that concert kinda grew on me, over time.
  9. I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue. When I finished and received the adulation of my friends, my wife was not so impressed and announced “Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!”

    That is a magisterial song. As with a number of Dylan songs, just lovely chord changes. We don’t think of his ‘composing’ side as much as his lyrical side obviously, but he’s written some great tunes. As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can’t think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.

    • Agree: Mr. Grey
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue. When I finished and received the adulation of my friends, my wife was not so impressed and announced “Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!”
     
    She was right. The lyrics are not very impressive.
    , @Anonymouse
    Joan Baez' Diamonds and Rust is on YouTube. I add my vote to the notion that Tangled Up In Blue is the ultimate Dylan song. The color of his eyes are as she says in what I nominate as the ultimate Joan Baez song.
    , @Malcolm X-Lax
    For about 20 years I sang "Split up on the docks that night/Both agreeing it was best" before I learned that was the wrong line. In most cases, I prefer my mondegreens to the original lyrics. But I agree, it is a transcendent song. But the surprising key changes, which are such a striking aspect of the song, weren't Dylan's idea. It was one of the guys in the band, a group of Minnesota locals Dylan's bro had assembled for the session.
    , @Old Prude
    "my wife was not so impressed and announced “Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!”"

    I hear you, brother!
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " That other great troubador, Springsteen"

    Damn I hope you are kidding with this perplexing statement. Springsteen is just about as talented as the gruesome off-key world champion Lou Reed, or nr 2 Leonard Cohen, or nr 3the stomach-turning Neil Young.

    Real pop artists : Neil Diamond, Doobie Bros, the marvelous Temptations, we can talk about.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" qualified since 1973, airborne trained US army vet, and pro jazz performer.

    , @Anon
    I think the best songs on BOTT are 'Simple Twist of Fate' and 'You're a Big Girl Now', but 'Tangled' is a great opener for the album.
    , @ben tillman

    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue.
     
    I'm not sure Jerry Garcia ever managed that.
  10. anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:

    Boomers really need to shut the hell up about boomer shit

    • Agree: Kylie
  11. … adding a little boy Adam Sandler to the tour, since Bob and Adam are almost identical at this point.

    Would a Dylan version of The Hanukka Song be better than the Sandler original?

  12. Bob who? This guy is so old he could be the pitching coach for the NY Mets. Do people still really care about Mr Zimmerman and his corny folk songs? He wasn’t any good when he was considered good.

    • Agree: Robert Dolan
    • Replies: @Hockamaw
    There are two kinds of American, and only two: people who get Bob Dylan and people who don't.
  13. Does the documentary explain why Dylan is wearing clown makeup? It looks absurd.

    leaves out Dylan’s greatest 1970s song Tangled Up in Blue

    Greatest? To each his own. I prefer Simple Twist of Fate and You’re A Big Girl Now from that same album. And while I’ve always been a sucker for Black Diamond Bay, I wouldn’t consider it a better song.

    Dylan had the strange habit of totally reworking songs for live performance, like the “Isis” posted above. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn’t, like in the “Isis” posted above, which tramples on the lilt of the original. Well, just Bob being Bob.

    Bob is also the ultimate sui generis rock star, and the best Jewish rock star by a country mile. Other than Dylan and a few other notable exceptions, Jews have been surprisingly under-represented among the great rock stars, considering their success in all other entertainment fields. Though like everywhere else, they are often over-praised by the Jewish rock press, witness the generally terrible Randy Newman as an example, and the good but over-rated Leonard Cohen as another.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."
    , @bomag
    I never could see Randy Newman's appeal. Others have noticed:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARP6dXMlWQ8

    Leonard Cohen is good if one's into lugubrious.

    Rush is good.

    , @Sparkon

    Dylan had the strange habit of totally reworking songs for live performance
     
    That's probably because Dylan couldn't sing his hits the way the studio produced his hits.

    I think a strong contender for Dylan's best is "Chimes of Freedom," although not the way he performed it.


    Far between sundown's finish an' midnight's broken toll
    We ducked inside the doorway, thunder crashing
    As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds
    Seeming to be the chimes of freedom flashing...

    Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight
    Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight
    An' for each an' ev'ry underdog soldier in the night
    An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing
     

    But the best version is by the Byrds from their 1965 album Mr. Tambourine Man

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaqC7QSXjDU

    Was Dylan a plagiarist?


    Dave Van Ronk gave his account of the song's origins: "Bob Dylan heard me fooling around with one of my grandmother's favorites, 'The Chimes of Trinity,' a sentimental ballad about Trinity Church, that went something like Tolling for the outcast, tolling for the gay/Tolling for the [something something], long since passed away/As we whiled away the hours, down on old Broadway/And we listened to the chimes of Trinity. He made me sing it for him a few times until he had the gist of it, then reworked it into 'Chimes of Freedom.' Her version was better."

    -- Wikipedia
     

  14. Emmanuel Derman on it:

    The Bob Dylan movie is about an America that had already ceased to exist at the time of the Rolling Thunder Revue in 1975, and absolutely doesn’t exist now.

    America in the Sixties was a spark of light. The movie’s 1975 participants are nostalgic for the early 196os, and the movie is nostalgic for the nostalgia of 1975. The source of it all is gone.

    • Replies: @Ibound1
    Like I keep saying, Trump is the only person even trying to save the country these liberals love, but they can’t see it. They just wonder why California is so much worse a place than it was in 1965, why the youth of today are so much less sparkling, why no one under 50 listens to their music, why the roads are so crowded, why no one wants to see their movies or read their books - while they curse Drumf and his Wall.
    , @Alfa158
    I like Derman’s job title; Professor of Financial Engineering. I think it is useful to be able to work in economics but still distinguish what you do from the run of the mill practitioners of the dismal “science” of economics typified by writers for The Economist.
    In these times when someone is writing as an economist you all too frequently can expect complex mathematical analysis distorted to the service of some crazy self-contradictory stew of left wing political axe grinding, open borders nation destruction, grievance mongering, pandering to rapacious global capitalism, wishful thinking, wacky sociology, consistently wrong forecasts, financial self-promotion and political polemics.
    When you identify as a Financial Engineer you can convey the message that you are at least attempting to build a mathematically designed, functional bridge made out of sound structural materials, unlike the other guys who are cobbling together a bridge using old statues of politicians and philosophers, and telling us it is safe to drive over it.
  15. As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can’t think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.

    Sprinsteen is a good lad – standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon…).
    Its what Steve Sailer once said, if you’re not that much of a genius, your arguments (=your songs) have to be good. And some of his songs are good.

    Darkness on the Edge of Town, Born in the USA (“Hey little girl is your daddy home…”), Nebraska (the cop who sings about his robber-brother: “nothing feels better than blood on blood” …).

    • Replies: @peterike

    Sprinsteen is a good lad – standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon…).

     

    Springsteen is NOT a good lad: he's a race and class traitor, and he suffered terrible depression because of it (that's Doctor Peterike's personal diagnosis of the cause of his depression, said depression being public knowledge). He is, however, arguably the best rock songwriter of all time. I said "arguably." Certainly among the ten best ever. Even more impressive since he was mostly play-acting at being the streetwise, hot-rod driving Jersey boy.
    , @ziel
    Agree, Bruce has written an usually large # of really good songs, but it's the combination of his lyrical genius and simple (but punchy) melodies that make them so memorable.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Springsteen is also one hell of a live performer. E.g. https://youtu.be/YV4iyk1dzS8
  16. As opposed to that other great troubadour, Springsteen, of whom I can’t think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.

    Springsteen is a good lad – standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon…).
    Its what Steve Sailer once said, if you’re not that much of a genius, your arguments (=your songs) have to be good. And some of his songs are good.

    Darkness on the Edge of Town, Born in the USA (“Hey little girl is your daddy home…”), Nebraska (the cop who sings about his robber-brother: “nothing feels better than blood on blood” …).

    • Replies: @JMcG
    I used to be a big fan. Saw him multiple times, bought his records up through Ghost of Tom Joad. I can’t bear to listen to him at all anymore. He’s a sanctimonious fraud through and through. I think he knows it himself, and I think it’s eating him up. I heard bits and pieces of his broadway show and it’s a transparent celebration of the scam he’s played on his fans over the years.
    Bob Seger is more like who Springsteen wishes he could be.
    I can’t even muster up the will to bash him any more.
    , @HHSIII
    Thunder Road and Badlands. Sandy.

    Then again, I’m from Jersey.
  17. @slumber_j
    I won't get into my apparent inability to have, you know, actually wanted to listen to Bob Dylan at any point in the last 54 years. But here's another cinematic tribute to his peculiar genius that I like a lot:

    https://youtu.be/9u5x9pdInTU

    I’ve always wondered what happened to the mouse with the overbite, can you see-‘im?

  18. Damn, Steve, now I’ll have to watch the whole bloody documentary and I hate Bob Dylan!

  19. Anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:

    So now I’m goin’ back again
    I got to get to her somehow
    All the people we used to know
    They’re an illusion to me now
    Some are mathematicians
    Some are carpenters’ wives
    Don’t know how it all got started
    I don’t know what they’re doin’ with their lives
    But me, I’m still on the road
    Headin’ for another joint
    We always did feel the same
    We just saw it from a different point of view
    Tangled up in blue

    These don’t seem like good lyrics, Steve.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    They're better within the (musical) context of the song, but Dylan wrote far better lyrics than that. Check out the kaleidoscopic imagery in "Mr Tangerine Man" for example.
  20. Anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:
    @ziel
    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue. When I finished and received the adulation of my friends, my wife was not so impressed and announced "Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!"

    That is a magisterial song. As with a number of Dylan songs, just lovely chord changes. We don't think of his 'composing' side as much as his lyrical side obviously, but he's written some great tunes. As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can't think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.

    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue. When I finished and received the adulation of my friends, my wife was not so impressed and announced “Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!”

    She was right. The lyrics are not very impressive.

  21. I think it’s true he got the white face paint idea from KISS.

  22. @ziel
    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue. When I finished and received the adulation of my friends, my wife was not so impressed and announced "Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!"

    That is a magisterial song. As with a number of Dylan songs, just lovely chord changes. We don't think of his 'composing' side as much as his lyrical side obviously, but he's written some great tunes. As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can't think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.

    Joan Baez’ Diamonds and Rust is on YouTube. I add my vote to the notion that Tangled Up In Blue is the ultimate Dylan song. The color of his eyes are as she says in what I nominate as the ultimate Joan Baez song.

  23. Sharon Stone is a hot baby boomer, it can’t be refuted. Since I am a gentleman, I won’t say she was hotter in her prime. She is beautiful and she has a very attractive figure.

    Sharon Stone is another American with English and German ancestry; there are a lot more than you might think.

    Sharon Stone has English, German, Scottish, Irish and Scotch-Irish/Northern Irish ancestry according to the internet at ethnicity of celebrities site. I changed the Scots to Scotch.

    Sharon Stone might be a baby boomer nutcake, but that could be attributable to her high IQ.

    Sharon Stone ain’t no female like Marine Le Pen in terms of political worldview. Marine Le Pen is a female treasure who wants to protect and advance the interests of France and European Christendom. Sharon Stone wants to make a buck and have some fun and spout off some baby boomer horseshit about this or that.

    Reminder that a good looking woman like Sharon Stone could be an annoying distaff wacko, but that doesn’t diminish her natural beauty or attractiveness.

    Marine Le Pen will be president of France in 2022 and Sharon Stone will be spouting off on some globaloney nonsense that don’t mean crud.

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    But if Marine Le Pen crossed and uncrossed her legs,well, how do you think Newman would react to that?
  24. Here’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam Shepard,

    That was good stuff

    • Agree: Captain Tripps
    • Replies: @syonredux
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il1x-bSkAZI
    , @Lot
    He’s alive and well at 96. Here he is on tour in Afghanistan in 2012.

    http://www.chuckyeager.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/120418-F-AX764-001x640.jpg
  25. @syonredux

    Here’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam Shepard,
     
    That was good stuff


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr02n1b8sUE

  26. Tulsi Gabbard is another American besides Sharon Stone with German and English ancestry.

    Certain elements within the JEW/WASP ruling class of the American Empire don’t like Tulsi Gabbard because Gabbard wants to put the interests of the United States ahead of the interests of other nations.

    The Neo-Conservatives and many other elements in the Swamp City DC foreign policy scam shop put the interests of Israel ahead of the interests of the United States.

    I don’t agree with Tulsi Gabbard on many issues, but I agree with her that the American Empire should be more circumspect in its decisions about going to war.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
    " Gabbard wants to put the interests of the United States ahead of the interests of the interests of other nations"

    Bullshit a thousand times over : No Democrat wants to uphold or promote the interests of the United States.
    The Republicans are bad enough, however the dissolute Democrats are the world champions at graft, deception and underhandedness and downright anti-American activities. Wake up.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army vet, and pro Jazz performer.
  27. Is Steve Sailer going along with the fun about this Martin Scorsese and Sharon Stone and Bob Dylan business?

    Scorsese inserts Sharon Stone into some bit about Bob Dylan out of Minnesota and then some Unz Review Commenter gives us a nostalgia within nostalgia take on the early 1960s as seen from a Bob Dylan concert tour in 1975?

  28. I watched about two-thirds of it the other night. I used to be obsessed this period of Dylan’s life, his break-up, his art, Desire, Blood on the Tracks etc. For anyone who hasn’t read it, Dylan’s deposition in Patty Valentine’s civil suit is highly entertaining in its own way. A humorous anecdote from one of his biographies describes a moment when Dylan and Co are playing a prison and the audience of mostly blacks are so uninterested and disrespectful that Joni Mitchell stops mid-song to reprimand them. If only there was video of that moment. White hippy love meets black power and comes up wanting. LOL.

    • Replies: @Anon
    "Pop stars come and pop stars go, but amid all this change there is one eternal truth:
    Whenever Bob Dylan writes a song about a guy, the guy is guilty as sin.

    "That was the case with California psychopath George Jackson ("Lord, lord they shot George Jackson down"), New York mobster Joey Gallo ("Joe-eee, Joe-eee, why did they have to come and blow you A-way") and Paterson's own Rubin "Hurricane" Carter (In perhaps the dumbest couplet of a dumb career, Dylan rhymes "trigger" with the N-word.)

    "https://www.nj.com/opinion/2014/04/spare_us_the_lies_about_the_late_hurricane_carter_mulshine.html
  29. @ziel
    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue. When I finished and received the adulation of my friends, my wife was not so impressed and announced "Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!"

    That is a magisterial song. As with a number of Dylan songs, just lovely chord changes. We don't think of his 'composing' side as much as his lyrical side obviously, but he's written some great tunes. As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can't think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.

    For about 20 years I sang “Split up on the docks that night/Both agreeing it was best” before I learned that was the wrong line. In most cases, I prefer my mondegreens to the original lyrics. But I agree, it is a transcendent song. But the surprising key changes, which are such a striking aspect of the song, weren’t Dylan’s idea. It was one of the guys in the band, a group of Minnesota locals Dylan’s bro had assembled for the session.

    • Replies: @peterike

    For about 20 years I sang “Split up on the docks that night/Both agreeing it was best” before I learned that was the wrong line.

     

    Lol! I always thought that was the line too. I just had to go look it up:

    We drove that car as far as we could
    Abandoned it out West
    Split up on a dark sad night
    Both agreeing it was best


    Honestly "split up on the docks that night" is a better lyric.
    , @Blodg
    There are no key changes in Tangled Up In Blue

    It’s in the key of A and stays in the key of A

    Btw, although there are seven verses they are easy to remember because the song is a story-the verses all connect
  30. Here is a decent picture of Sharon Stone in her prime from what appears to be that Dutch guy’s action science fiction movie with the Austrian arsehole that pushes mass legal immigration.

  31. Only one person, Bob Dylan, gets to play Bob Dylan? That’s kind of limiting, isn’t it?

    I thought Cate Blanchett was a pretty good Dylan.

  32. @Dieter Kief

    As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can’t think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.
     
    Sprinsteen is a good lad - standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon...).
    Its what Steve Sailer once said, if you're not that much of a genius, your arguments (=your songs) have to be good. And some of his songs are good.

    Darkness on the Edge of Town, Born in the USA ("Hey little girl is your daddy home..."), Nebraska (the cop who sings about his robber-brother: "nothing feels better than blood on blood" ...).

    Sprinsteen is a good lad – standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon…).

    Springsteen is NOT a good lad: he’s a race and class traitor, and he suffered terrible depression because of it (that’s Doctor Peterike’s personal diagnosis of the cause of his depression, said depression being public knowledge). He is, however, arguably the best rock songwriter of all time. I said “arguably.” Certainly among the ten best ever. Even more impressive since he was mostly play-acting at being the streetwise, hot-rod driving Jersey boy.

    • Replies: @J1234

    Even more impressive since he was mostly play-acting at being the streetwise, hot-rod driving Jersey boy.
     
    Prime example:

    I got a '69 Chevy with a 396 Fuelie heads and a Hurst on the floor
     
    If I was talking to car people - even Ford or Mopar people - and I told them I had fuelie heads on a BB Chevy, they wouldn't even bother laughing at me, so great would be their disdain.

    World famous Bruce Springsteen puts it in a song and it's largely overlooked. It isn't that he made a technical mistake in a song, it's that he's a cultural fake of the highest order. He's actually like a lot of other musicians who put on cultural costumes. White guys who play the blues are absolutely the worst in this regard. The more traditional the blues they play, the worse they are. I sort of abandoned bluegrass music for the same reasons.

    The difference is that early "Bruce" is/was sort of it's own "genre" of music (in a manner of speaking) and that does reveal an impressive amount of creativity on his part. I remember hearing his music for the first time in the 70's and thinking that his sound had some sort of stylistic connection with the past (in terms of rock and roll) without being "tribute" music - an impressive synthesis of old and new, really - but that may have been a wrong interpretation on my part. I've liked a few recent songs of his, but now ignore him because of his self-appointed social guru status and his phoniness.

    And Nebraska sucked as bad as the early reviews said it did. I think he surrounded himself with some very talented musicians, arrangers and producers in the early days, and (out of some sense of insecurity) wanted to make an album to prove his success was "all about the songwriting" and not the other stuff...an exercise in egotism, sort of. Despite being a gifted songwriter, he was wrong about his songwriting being able to stand alone, and Nebraska proved it in spades, but the pop mythology surrounding the album eventually took hold (pushed largely by himself.) Actually most of the songs on that album sucked,with a couple of notable exceptions. It rivals Brian Wilson's Smile as the most overrated album of all time.


    Steve said: 'Here’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam ShepardHere’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam Shepard'
     
    I can't for the life of me figure out why celebrities and entertainers are attracted to other celebrities and entertainers. It rarely works out and it costs them big time. I don't buy the "common outlook or interest" explanation. I worked in an engineering office, but wasn't attracted to female engineers (there were a few.) I was a musician but wasn't necessarily attracted to other musicians. I think of most celebrity and entertainer unions as great monuments to phoniness and emptiness.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    Nailed everything except the vegetarianism.

    His ability to project his, blue-collar, "Boss," persona as authentic is sociopathic.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    He is, however, arguably the best rock songwriter of all time. I said “arguably.”
     
    Oh, get real. His best album was the second, because he shut up for long stretches and let his band boogie on.

    His best songs were written with Steve Van Zandt for Southside Johnny. (Liner note: despite the Dutch surnames, this team is 75% Italian.) The discipline of writing for others helps.

    Some of his tighter songs, like "I'm on Fire", are okay, but, as with Dylan and Randy Newman, they sound much better coming from a professional singer. I like Madeleine Peyroux.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMYXtabfp-w
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ_P8ezZIrI
  33. Anonymous [AKA "Mr Skibby"] says:

    I have but one rule for determining if I want to hang out with someone.

    If they hate Dylan, I don’t want to be around them

    It is an accurate Dork Detector

    Only dorks hate Dylan

    Ancient footprints, everywhere

    • Replies: @Robert Dolan
    Dylan sucks.

    He always sucked.
  34. Jeebus, tried watching this with the wife. It is horrible. Gave up after about 45 minutes. I say this as a big fan of Blood on the Tracks – but I have the album and don’t need to see poor quality stage performances interspersed with nonsense camera monkey shines.

  35. Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did

    Airplane mattered. Starship was just a hit machine, like Wings(McCartney). And they had two great songs: Miracles and With Your Love... though the two songs sound almost identical.

    Now, this is a curious list, with Stone Roses at the very top. Never heard of the band.

    http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/observer.htm
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    Glory Days is one of Springsteen's top two anthems.

    Dancing in the Dark is a radio friendly unit shifter, Springsteen has said so himself.
    , @Anonymous
    If you’re going to fail in your criticism, fail hard.

    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.
     
    , @Mr McKenna

    We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did
     
    This is some kind of a joke, right? Will someone explain it for me?
    , @MEH 0910
    https://media.gq.com/photos/57c71b80ff4e739d495a583e/16:9/w_1280%2Cc_limit/we-built-this-shitty-lede-4.gif

    GQ:

    An Oral History of “We Built This City,” the Worst Song of All Time

    By ROB TANNENBAUM
    August 31, 2016

    Thirty years ago, radio stations and MTV put an insidiously catchy song called “We Built This City” into heavy rotation and kept it there. The hit single gave the members of the band Starship—which emerged from the ashes of Jefferson Starship, successor to Jefferson Airplane, the essential 1960s psychedelic band—unlikely second careers as pop stars. At the time, Starship's most famous member, singer Grace Slick, was 46.

    But over the years, as '80s music began to sound dated and ludicrous—and no song sounds more '80s than “We Built This City”—it developed a hideous reputation: the worst song of all time. Blender magazine first crowned it thus in 2004, and the label has stuck, thanks to a series of online polls, thickening into something close to empirical fact.
     
    , @JimDandy
    "Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did "

    Tell me you're joking. This is trolling, right? This is perhaps the most absurd comment ever posted in the history of the internet.
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Good job, Whiskey! It seems not everyone is up to speed on deep iSteve lore. You rode the wrecking ball into their guitars.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    "We Built This City" has a claim to notoriety, all right-- it helped put the RRHoF in Cleveland. That, and WMMS. 90% of calls in support of candidate cities came from Ohio.

    Starship wasn't much of an inspiration.

    They built that city on earthquake detritus, by the way.
    , @HHSIII
    Count on Me and Miracles are underrated.
  36. @Dieter Kief

    As opposed to that other great troubadour, Springsteen, of whom I can’t think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.
     
    Springsteen is a good lad - standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon...).
    Its what Steve Sailer once said, if you're not that much of a genius, your arguments (=your songs) have to be good. And some of his songs are good.

    Darkness on the Edge of Town, Born in the USA ("Hey little girl is your daddy home..."), Nebraska (the cop who sings about his robber-brother: "nothing feels better than blood on blood" ...).

    I used to be a big fan. Saw him multiple times, bought his records up through Ghost of Tom Joad. I can’t bear to listen to him at all anymore. He’s a sanctimonious fraud through and through. I think he knows it himself, and I think it’s eating him up. I heard bits and pieces of his broadway show and it’s a transparent celebration of the scam he’s played on his fans over the years.
    Bob Seger is more like who Springsteen wishes he could be.
    I can’t even muster up the will to bash him any more.

    • Agree: Ibound1
    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    "He's a sanctimonious fraud ..."

    I admit getting sucked into Springsteen's working class hero shtick in the 1980s. Born to Run (1975) and Born in the USA (1984), in retrospect, are gangrenous cheesefests. Darkness on the Edge of Town (1978) had its raw moments. But what ultimately sinks the Boss is the saxophone. Rock guitar and sax is an East Coast thing.
    , @Anonymous
    Springsteen is a hard worker, driven, but his "blue collar" persona is horseshit and he knows it.
    No one I knew who worked in a steel mill listened to him.

    He would not have lasted a week in a heavy industrial job.
    , @Dieter Kief
    Bruce Springsteen woke up as a star right in the middle of the crossroad (cf. Robert Johnson and Greil Marcus). That worked for a while. But then something strange happened, and his position in the middle of the crossroad running through the races and through big money and small banks - - marked the longer the more between egalitarianism (=idealism) and factual (sorry to mention such dirty letters here) racial differences. These strange things, which surfaced slowly but steadily along with Bruce Springsteen's ascend to megastardom were, what - the longer they lasted, the more so: Ripped his value system apart. - His coat of ideals became shiny and in the end was"Torn and Frayed" (Jagger/Richards).

    Dylan escaped these loopholes in the deteriorating crossroads I sketched above by finding religion. Springsteen tried hard not to get lost in the pitfalls of Western reality. But his vulnerability when he was out on the crossroads when the circumstances were more (incredibly more) peaceful and friendly (= USA 1970 ff.) turned out to be something completely different from the vulnerability he encountered at the time, The Times were a-changing - a-changing in a different way, than the optimistic mood of the Sixties had led people to expect. Times were becoming harder now, not least economically - starting in the late seventies, early eighties.
    And from then on, Bruce Springsteen got into big trouble: All of a sudden, he found himself in an "Exile on Main Street" (The Stones), which he could not handle at all. - Being exiled on main street USA, he got under the bus - and just because he is no sunny boy - since as such, he could have tried to simply laugh his way out of his (severe) conundrums.

    So - his value system did not fit reality any longer, and he had no cure for that. He started to dwindle down artistically (Tunnel of Love...) and - - - -to suffer from depression. - His status as a big star started to decline too, I agree with you on that.

    He did have a great time though. To appreciate this, one has to understand his limitations - and say goodbye to one's own blue-eyed glorious days of old(...) and days of gold (Dylan - Self-Portrait (!)), since as youth goes by, we all necessarily lose our youthful Purity (Jonathan Franzen) and have to confront (excuse me for using just one more dirty word) reality (see Steve Sailer's motto and Jackson Browne, in - - - - Cocaine).

    When that has happened, we have to come to grips with a life - - - - "After the Gold-Rush". There's nothing wrong with that. But it does mean to acknowledge, that life ain't a dream no more, its the real thing (Dylan/Senor - Dreams of Yankee Power on Slow Train Coming) - and as such, as the real thing, life is: Less sparkling and therefore more reliable. That's the existential deal of becoming a grown-up - - - if one has gotten out of this dream-stuff with one's senses intact, that is, after having traded in the ideals of one's youth (Schiller) for - - - sanity and reason. Freidrich Schiller adds (in Don Carlos), that it is important nonetheless, to hold the dreams of one's youth in dear respect - but as something, that has necessarily to be transformed, I'd add here, shortening a longer and more profound argument, but not disgracing it.
    All in all, that might sound harsher than it is though. - Hasn't it been quite boring and confusing too, at times, when we were young? And isn't life still sparkling, here and there, in our older eyes, too?

  37. @Dave Pinsen
    Emmanuel Derman on it:

    https://twitter.com/emanuelderman/status/1141318216465166341?s=21

    The Bob Dylan movie is about an America that had already ceased to exist at the time of the Rolling Thunder Revue in 1975, and absolutely doesn’t exist now.

    America in the Sixties was a spark of light. The movie’s 1975 participants are nostalgic for the early 196os, and the movie is nostalgic for the nostalgia of 1975. The source of it all is gone.
     

    Like I keep saying, Trump is the only person even trying to save the country these liberals love, but they can’t see it. They just wonder why California is so much worse a place than it was in 1965, why the youth of today are so much less sparkling, why no one under 50 listens to their music, why the roads are so crowded, why no one wants to see their movies or read their books – while they curse Drumf and his Wall.

  38. @slumber_j
    I won't get into my apparent inability to have, you know, actually wanted to listen to Bob Dylan at any point in the last 54 years. But here's another cinematic tribute to his peculiar genius that I like a lot:

    https://youtu.be/9u5x9pdInTU

    From 1966, a minor hit in Texas by the band Mouse and the Traps:

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    Yeah, that gets the job done more or less.
  39. @syonredux

    Here’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam Shepard,
     
    That was good stuff


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr02n1b8sUE

    He’s alive and well at 96. Here he is on tour in Afghanistan in 2012.

  40. @Dave Pinsen
    Emmanuel Derman on it:

    https://twitter.com/emanuelderman/status/1141318216465166341?s=21

    The Bob Dylan movie is about an America that had already ceased to exist at the time of the Rolling Thunder Revue in 1975, and absolutely doesn’t exist now.

    America in the Sixties was a spark of light. The movie’s 1975 participants are nostalgic for the early 196os, and the movie is nostalgic for the nostalgia of 1975. The source of it all is gone.
     

    I like Derman’s job title; Professor of Financial Engineering. I think it is useful to be able to work in economics but still distinguish what you do from the run of the mill practitioners of the dismal “science” of economics typified by writers for The Economist.
    In these times when someone is writing as an economist you all too frequently can expect complex mathematical analysis distorted to the service of some crazy self-contradictory stew of left wing political axe grinding, open borders nation destruction, grievance mongering, pandering to rapacious global capitalism, wishful thinking, wacky sociology, consistently wrong forecasts, financial self-promotion and political polemics.
    When you identify as a Financial Engineer you can convey the message that you are at least attempting to build a mathematically designed, functional bridge made out of sound structural materials, unlike the other guys who are cobbling together a bridge using old statues of politicians and philosophers, and telling us it is safe to drive over it.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Derman’s background is in physics, not economics: he was a PhD physicist before getting into finance. He talked a bit about that, and about financial engineering, in this commencement speech at Berkeley a few years ago: http://emanuelderman.com/speech-at-commencement-2014-to-berkeley-mse-grads/
  41. @ziel
    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue. When I finished and received the adulation of my friends, my wife was not so impressed and announced "Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!"

    That is a magisterial song. As with a number of Dylan songs, just lovely chord changes. We don't think of his 'composing' side as much as his lyrical side obviously, but he's written some great tunes. As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can't think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.

    “my wife was not so impressed and announced “Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!””

    I hear you, brother!

  42. Anonymous[419] • Disclaimer says:

    Bob Dylan is not a poet, he is not a musician, he is just horrible.

    One of the many bonuses that will accompany the decline of the Boomers is that we’ll stop hearing about Bob Dylan.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    boomers really need to shut the hell up about boomer shit. good god.


    BOB DYLAN WAS NEVER GOOD.

    JONI MITCHELL WAS NEVER GOOD.


    SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP
    , @Authenticjazzman
    Holy shit, someone with ears. CHAPEAU !

    AJM
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    "... the decline of the Boomers ..."

    Tom Petty. Pink Floyd. Van Halen. The Police. Rush. Led Zeppelin. The Partridge Family. And many more. The 70s and 80s golden era of Boomer rock. Rock hit the skids in the late 1990s as the African beats became triumphant.
  43. Anonymous[535] • Disclaimer says:

    Mid 70s was for Dylan like the John Travolta Redux moment.

    Travolta was on top of the world in the late 70s with SNF and Grease. But then he starred in one bomb after another and became a laughing stock. He was written off… until he made a huge comeback with Pulp Fiction. Travolta took full advantage of the good fortune and signed up for just about any movie, most of them stinkers. But he got a lot of paychecks. At least he got his second act in the movies.

    Dylan, for various reasons, had been sidelined for nearly a decade. Mostly it was self-exile. Even though he did key work in this period, especially John Wesley Harding and songs like ‘Lay Lady Lay’, he became more myth than reality. While others were at the forefront of the Zeitgeist, Dylan was in the shadows. Granted, his foray into neo-country had huge influence on others, but he refused to play the leading role. And in the early 70s, he was eclipsed by other singer-songwriters who were doing better work. Cat Stevens, Neil Young, and Joni Mitchell did some of their best work in late 60s and early 70s. Dylan was still releasing albums, but they didn’t get the respect that his key works in 65 and 66 did. New Morning and Planet Waves were very good, not great. As for Self-Portrait, a double album, it was mocked more than admired, with Greil Marcus leading the way.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/self-portrait-107056/

    [MORE]

    Dylan was being written off as a has-been and nostalgia act at best. No one expected greatness from Dylan anymore. Then came Blood on the Tracks, his best work since John Wesley Harding. And unlike Harding, it was commercially viable. It was like Dylan got his mojo back. 1975 also saw the release of Basement Tapes, featuring some of the best work by Dylan and the Band. Dylan felt like he was on top of the world again. He was at the center of culture, with Newsweek or Time featuring him on the cover. And he was gonna squeeze this moment for all it was worth. It was also his last spurt of ‘youth’ as he was in his mid-30s. An early onset of mid-age crisis. Rolling Thunder Revue was both nostalgia act and new beginning. Dylan was trying to revive the idealism of the 60s, and he would soon write his protest song ‘Hurricane’ that became a huge hit(though it’s mostly BS). Dylan gathered together his old friends, and it was like a family get-together or class reunion in Fellinesque style. But it wasn’t just basking in nostalgia as he also gathered together new talents and plowed ahead in a spirit of adventure and discovery. And in the following year in 76, Dylan would have his biggest hit ever, the album Desire(though in retrospect, it pales next to Tracks). In the Rolling Stone Consumer Guide, Marsh gave both albums 4 stars and said they were marred only by production values. True or not, Tracks has some great songs whereas Desire doesn’t. Its love song ‘Sara’ is sloppy. ‘Hurricane’ is great as music but is too stupid to take seriously. Only ‘Black Diamond Bay’ has lasting value.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/desire-255500/

    In 1966, when the eyes of the world were upon him, Dylan walked away. In the mid-70s when the entire 60s scene was fading into oblivion, Dylan made his last-ditch effort to be relevant again(and the media were on his side). But in the end, it was an Indian summer of Counterculture. The only 60s act that was still making a difference was Pink Floyd. Stones would soon do disco.
    It’s a common pattern we see among famous people. When they get so much attention, they assume it will be around forever and ignore it. But when they realize the attention is gone and no one really cares anymore, they crave the limelight. Despite the critical and commercial successes with Tracks and Desire, Dylan was swimming against the current unlike the earlier time when the current was carrying him along, if anything too fast, which is why he swam to ground and decided to withdraw from the cultural torrents.

    Dylan had the cinema jinx. This seems odd given his lively personalty and wit. In interviews from the 60s, he’s as engaging and funny as the Beatles with the media. But he never clicked with cinema. In Don’t Look Back, the Pennebaker documentary, he’s too aloof and indifferent for the camera. He comes alive only when he’s nastiest, and it’s not pleasant. In Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid, he just mopes around. Renaldo and Clara has been called one of the worst rock movies ever.

    http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/new_book_of_rock_lists.htm

    https://whitecitycinema.com/tag/renaldo-and-clara/

    Dylan had confidence in front of a live audience but not in front of the lone camera. On stage, he thrives on audience enthusiasm. In front of journalists, he can say funny things and make them laugh. But in front of a movie camera, he feels small, confused, or just bored. Elvis starred in many forgettable movies, but he had natural rapport with the camera because he was good-looking. Elvis could do nothing but still be a star. Dylan, in contrast, always had to be doing something, and the live audience, fans or media, made him come alive. But in front of camera and crew, he is diminished. Hearts of Fire was panned and ignored. Masked and Anonymous wasn’t much either. Even movies about Dylan could be dreadful, like the Todd Haynes film, a piece of complete nonsense, a movie doctoral dissertation on Dylan as ‘signs’.

    But then, Scorsese made a first-rate documentary of Dylan with No Direction Home. He also made one of the better Rock movies, the Last Waltz in the 70s. Scorsese seems more interested in the Rock scene than his peers like Spielberg, Lucas(whose musical taste seems to have been stuck on Top 40), Bogdanovich, and etc. DePalma made Phantom of Paradise, but it was Scorsese who devoted his life to making a series of documentary on key 60s rock figures such as Dylan, Stones, and Harrison. Part of the reason could be envious admiration. While film-makers can be ‘auteurs’, they are never the full authors of their material like song composers/performers. Dylan wrote his songs and performed them. More often than not, Scorsese worked on the scripts of others, and others did the performing. He was never the total artist that Dylan could be. Also, there is something about music that is mysterious. Of all the arts, it’s the toughest thing to pin down rationally. This may be why Scorsese was sympathetic toward Harrison. Unlike Lennon and McCartney who had musical genius, Harrison was like most people. He loved music without special knack for it. If not for his association with Lennon and McCartney, he would have been nothing. And yet, he stuck at it and managed to write a handful of classics. If any rock figure gives hope to the non-musician, it’s Harrison whose example suggests even the non-natural talent can, by much effort and good fortune, crank out a few great songs in his lifetime. It’s difficult to identify with genius as few people have it. But it’s easy to identify with non-genius who is, for few moments in time, grazed by genius. Scorsese’s Dylan docu is a tribute to the star of genius; his Harrison docu is a tribute to the shooting star that burns brightly if for a moment. Incredibly, Harrison supplied the best songs for both the White Album and Abbey Road.

    Scorsese’s Catholicism seems to be operative here as well. He isn’t just a fan but like a church scholar looking for ‘new saints’ to canonize. It’s the dark saints of the church of sin, but it too has its hierarchies and histories. Not everyone is allowed. Just like Sarris’ auteur rankings had an elaborate hierarchy, Rock music has its giants too. And Dylan is the messianic figure in the church of rock. Dylan may also be fascinating to Scorsese because both were serious artists involved in what is mostly a popular idiom. They took their work very seriously. And just like Scorsese’s struggle with Catholicism and sin, Dylan had its bouts with religion, Jewish and Christian, and worldly temptations, as well as conflicts between conservatism and liberalism, between traditional folklore and urban cosmopolitanism. In the age of internet and pop idols, Scorsese is anxious to spread the canonical reverence for old film masters and now old rock masters.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @HHSIII
    Christgau’s take on Hurricane was accurate. Before Dylan’s protest songs were about nobodies like Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll (although that had been a fairly well known incident). Carter was more a celebrity cause. Like you suggest, he’d become more a follower than a leader.
  44. My god, all of this is such peak whiteness. I need a pair of Oakleys.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    My god, all of this is such peak whiteness.
     
    Whiteness or Jewishness? Who would count as the last important Jewish figure who made a huge impact on culture? Seinfeld and Larry David(though not my cup of tea)? There are tons of Jewish talents all around, but have any been seminal, groundbreaking, or game-changing like Dylan, Roth, Allen, Mailer, Spielberg, and etc?
    Maybe with more elite routes open to Jews than in the past, many more Jews are headed for elite positions in law, finance, and high-tech than arts, culture, and letters. Also, the implosion of high/serious culture means fewer Jews are willing to sacrifice fortune for respect. When culture was taken seriously, plenty of talents were willing to make less money to gain more respect. Now, its hit the charts or hit the road. Or maybe arts and culture are truly exhausted in originality as Jacques Barzun argued. It's the time of decadence following the final explosions of modernism.

    Along with tributes to Dylan and 60s, there are tributes to New Cinema of 60s and 70s.
    Decade under the Influence is a terrible documentary and got most things wrong.
    Haven't seen What She Said, but Kael seems to be the ONE film critic who is remembered and lionized, which is rather unfair to others. It helps to have a personality, and she had it. Still, others get ignored as Kael and Kael alone gets canonized.

    https://youtu.be/EJ7MJcrazxE

    https://vimeo.com/user31561177/edandpauline

    If(though far from certain) Jews are going the way of Wasps, who will command intellectual/serious culture? Asian-Indians?

    In the Q/A section of the video, the Hindu man seems to be most inquisitive at 38:00.

    https://vimeo.com/33782386

    That said, there was convergence of quality and publicity in the case of Kael. She was a great critic who deserved attention. Likewise, someone like James Baldwin received lots of plaudits because he was a great writer. And whatever one thinks of Streisand, she was not without talent musically and comedically.

    https://video.wttw.com/video/wttw-featured-pauline-kael/

    https://search.alexanderstreet.com/preview/work/bibliographic_entity%7Cvideo_work%7C2191987 (video for academics only but transcript is on the side)

    But much that goes publicized today seems to be without merit. Coates for instance. This guy is no Baldwin. Lena Dunham has zero talent. Tarantino has been inflated way beyond his worth. The New Star Wars is crap. Black Panther is not the second coming of christ, black or not. But the sheer gaga hysteria from the mainstream media. Paglia, though more interesting than most, has been coasting on her publicity than real work for decades. NYT and media, as they shy from controversy, favor the approved than provocative. Granted, plenty of phonies were promoted in the past. Stanley Kramer and Stephen J. Gould, but the quality of the most publicized and promoted seem to have gotten worse. Or just plain crazy, like with the media calling every tranny kid 'amazing'. It's like promoting the possessed Regan in The Exorcist as so 'cool' and super.

    https://twitter.com/EvilHillaryPics/status/1141998180214747137
    , @Miro23

    My god, all of this is such peak whiteness. I need a pair of Oakleys.

     

    Jane Plain emigrate to Africa. It's vibrant and exciting and colorful and nothing like Europe/US. Just never ask to come back.
  45. “The only disappointment in Scorsese’s documentary is that it leaves out Dylan’s greatest 1970s song Tangled Up in Blue.”

    Mm. Steady there. Dunno if its better than “Knockin’ on Heaven’s Door”.

    • Replies: @Sane Left Libertarian
    I'll take this one. Especially this version

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ms1u_hkEmk
  46. Personally I think that we still have a lot of great singer/songwriters around and active. Probably not as good as Dylan and Kristofferson and John Stewart and John Phillips and Chris Hillman and Paul Simon, but good nevertheless. Check out Jason Boland , Cody Canada, Brian Henneman, Kevin Welch, Michael Fracasso, or anyone from the Austin scene.

    The problem is IMO that radio is given over completely to rap/techno, country, sports talk, and right wing talk (all with 25 min/hour of ads), NPR, and the occasional classical station. The vast majority of music has been deplatformed.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    The Summit.fm. Lots of singer-songwriter types on there.
  47. @ziel
    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue. When I finished and received the adulation of my friends, my wife was not so impressed and announced "Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!"

    That is a magisterial song. As with a number of Dylan songs, just lovely chord changes. We don't think of his 'composing' side as much as his lyrical side obviously, but he's written some great tunes. As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can't think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.

    ” That other great troubador, Springsteen”

    Damn I hope you are kidding with this perplexing statement. Springsteen is just about as talented as the gruesome off-key world champion Lou Reed, or nr 2 Leonard Cohen, or nr 3the stomach-turning Neil Young.

    Real pop artists : Neil Diamond, Doobie Bros, the marvelous Temptations, we can talk about.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US army vet, and pro jazz performer.

  48. anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Bob Dylan is not a poet, he is not a musician, he is just horrible.

    One of the many bonuses that will accompany the decline of the Boomers is that we’ll stop hearing about Bob Dylan.

    boomers really need to shut the hell up about boomer shit. good god.

    BOB DYLAN WAS NEVER GOOD.

    JONI MITCHELL WAS NEVER GOOD.

    SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP

    • Replies: @anonymous
    guns to their heads, retarded folk boomers bob dylan, joni mitchell, neil young, david crosby couldn't do this to save their fucking lives:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npZeVT4Puy4
  49. @Anonymous
    Bob Dylan is not a poet, he is not a musician, he is just horrible.

    One of the many bonuses that will accompany the decline of the Boomers is that we’ll stop hearing about Bob Dylan.

    Holy shit, someone with ears. CHAPEAU !

    AJM

  50. anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    boomers really need to shut the hell up about boomer shit. good god.


    BOB DYLAN WAS NEVER GOOD.

    JONI MITCHELL WAS NEVER GOOD.


    SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP

    guns to their heads, retarded folk boomers bob dylan, joni mitchell, neil young, david crosby couldn’t do this to save their fucking lives:

  51. @Charles Pewitt
    Tulsi Gabbard is another American besides Sharon Stone with German and English ancestry.

    Certain elements within the JEW/WASP ruling class of the American Empire don't like Tulsi Gabbard because Gabbard wants to put the interests of the United States ahead of the interests of other nations.

    The Neo-Conservatives and many other elements in the Swamp City DC foreign policy scam shop put the interests of Israel ahead of the interests of the United States.

    I don't agree with Tulsi Gabbard on many issues, but I agree with her that the American Empire should be more circumspect in its decisions about going to war.

    https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1141697206132576257

    ” Gabbard wants to put the interests of the United States ahead of the interests of the interests of other nations”

    Bullshit a thousand times over : No Democrat wants to uphold or promote the interests of the United States.
    The Republicans are bad enough, however the dissolute Democrats are the world champions at graft, deception and underhandedness and downright anti-American activities. Wake up.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army vet, and pro Jazz performer.

  52. Anonymous[416] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jane Plain
    My god, all of this is such peak whiteness. I need a pair of Oakleys.

    My god, all of this is such peak whiteness.

    Whiteness or Jewishness? Who would count as the last important Jewish figure who made a huge impact on culture? Seinfeld and Larry David(though not my cup of tea)? There are tons of Jewish talents all around, but have any been seminal, groundbreaking, or game-changing like Dylan, Roth, Allen, Mailer, Spielberg, and etc?
    Maybe with more elite routes open to Jews than in the past, many more Jews are headed for elite positions in law, finance, and high-tech than arts, culture, and letters. Also, the implosion of high/serious culture means fewer Jews are willing to sacrifice fortune for respect. When culture was taken seriously, plenty of talents were willing to make less money to gain more respect. Now, its hit the charts or hit the road. Or maybe arts and culture are truly exhausted in originality as Jacques Barzun argued. It’s the time of decadence following the final explosions of modernism.

    Along with tributes to Dylan and 60s, there are tributes to New Cinema of 60s and 70s.
    Decade under the Influence is a terrible documentary and got most things wrong.
    Haven’t seen What She Said, but Kael seems to be the ONE film critic who is remembered and lionized, which is rather unfair to others. It helps to have a personality, and she had it. Still, others get ignored as Kael and Kael alone gets canonized.

    If(though far from certain) Jews are going the way of Wasps, who will command intellectual/serious culture? Asian-Indians?

    In the Q/A section of the video, the Hindu man seems to be most inquisitive at 38:00.

    That said, there was convergence of quality and publicity in the case of Kael. She was a great critic who deserved attention. Likewise, someone like James Baldwin received lots of plaudits because he was a great writer. And whatever one thinks of Streisand, she was not without talent musically and comedically.

    https://video.wttw.com/video/wttw-featured-pauline-kael/

    https://search.alexanderstreet.com/preview/work/bibliographic_entity%7Cvideo_work%7C2191987 (video for academics only but transcript is on the side)

    But much that goes publicized today seems to be without merit. Coates for instance. This guy is no Baldwin. Lena Dunham has zero talent. Tarantino has been inflated way beyond his worth. The New Star Wars is crap. Black Panther is not the second coming of christ, black or not. But the sheer gaga hysteria from the mainstream media. Paglia, though more interesting than most, has been coasting on her publicity than real work for decades. NYT and media, as they shy from controversy, favor the approved than provocative. Granted, plenty of phonies were promoted in the past. Stanley Kramer and Stephen J. Gould, but the quality of the most publicized and promoted seem to have gotten worse. Or just plain crazy, like with the media calling every tranny kid ‘amazing’. It’s like promoting the possessed Regan in The Exorcist as so ‘cool’ and super.

  53. @Malcolm X-Lax
    For about 20 years I sang "Split up on the docks that night/Both agreeing it was best" before I learned that was the wrong line. In most cases, I prefer my mondegreens to the original lyrics. But I agree, it is a transcendent song. But the surprising key changes, which are such a striking aspect of the song, weren't Dylan's idea. It was one of the guys in the band, a group of Minnesota locals Dylan's bro had assembled for the session.

    For about 20 years I sang “Split up on the docks that night/Both agreeing it was best” before I learned that was the wrong line.

    Lol! I always thought that was the line too. I just had to go look it up:

    We drove that car as far as we could
    Abandoned it out West
    Split up on a dark sad night
    Both agreeing it was best

    Honestly “split up on the docks that night” is a better lyric.

    • Replies: @ziel
    I always thought it was pretty funny how Joan Baez got the words to "Night they Drove Ol' Dixie Down" so wrong, being that she was Dylan's lover and he was living with the Band at the time (or at least around the same time), and probably could have gotten it straightened out with one phone call. But then if she did call Bobby (and maybe she did), he probably would have just responded with something like "Hey, whatever words you hear are the right words for you, just go with it".
  54. @ziel
    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue. When I finished and received the adulation of my friends, my wife was not so impressed and announced "Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!"

    That is a magisterial song. As with a number of Dylan songs, just lovely chord changes. We don't think of his 'composing' side as much as his lyrical side obviously, but he's written some great tunes. As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can't think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.

    I think the best songs on BOTT are ‘Simple Twist of Fate’ and ‘You’re a Big Girl Now’, but ‘Tangled’ is a great opener for the album.

  55. @Charles Pewitt
    Sharon Stone is a hot baby boomer, it can't be refuted. Since I am a gentleman, I won't say she was hotter in her prime. She is beautiful and she has a very attractive figure.

    Sharon Stone is another American with English and German ancestry; there are a lot more than you might think.

    Sharon Stone has English, German, Scottish, Irish and Scotch-Irish/Northern Irish ancestry according to the internet at ethnicity of celebrities site. I changed the Scots to Scotch.

    Sharon Stone might be a baby boomer nutcake, but that could be attributable to her high IQ.

    Sharon Stone ain't no female like Marine Le Pen in terms of political worldview. Marine Le Pen is a female treasure who wants to protect and advance the interests of France and European Christendom. Sharon Stone wants to make a buck and have some fun and spout off some baby boomer horseshit about this or that.

    Reminder that a good looking woman like Sharon Stone could be an annoying distaff wacko, but that doesn't diminish her natural beauty or attractiveness.

    Marine Le Pen will be president of France in 2022 and Sharon Stone will be spouting off on some globaloney nonsense that don't mean crud.

    But if Marine Le Pen crossed and uncrossed her legs,well, how do you think Newman would react to that?

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    But if Marine Le Pen crossed and uncrossed her legs,well, how do you think Newman would react to that?

     

    Flop sweat still.

    Also, the True French are all set to take command and control of the nukes when Marine Le Pen wins in 2022, and the French military is reported to have contingency plans in place to use strategic deportations to maintain order in France, if necessary.

    My concern with Marine Le Pen is that she is a klutz prone to falling into bone dry swimming pools while mowing the lawn. A horrible wag might say she was gabbing with a pal on the phone while mowing the grass and she stepped into the waterless void inadvertently. Marine Le Pen might have crossed and uncrossed her legs while swearing up a storm while waiting to let gravity finish its work.
  56. Anon[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malcolm X-Lax
    I watched about two-thirds of it the other night. I used to be obsessed this period of Dylan's life, his break-up, his art, Desire, Blood on the Tracks etc. For anyone who hasn't read it, Dylan's deposition in Patty Valentine's civil suit is highly entertaining in its own way. A humorous anecdote from one of his biographies describes a moment when Dylan and Co are playing a prison and the audience of mostly blacks are so uninterested and disrespectful that Joni Mitchell stops mid-song to reprimand them. If only there was video of that moment. White hippy love meets black power and comes up wanting. LOL.

    “Pop stars come and pop stars go, but amid all this change there is one eternal truth:
    Whenever Bob Dylan writes a song about a guy, the guy is guilty as sin.

    “That was the case with California psychopath George Jackson (“Lord, lord they shot George Jackson down”), New York mobster Joey Gallo (“Joe-eee, Joe-eee, why did they have to come and blow you A-way”) and Paterson’s own Rubin “Hurricane” Carter (In perhaps the dumbest couplet of a dumb career, Dylan rhymes “trigger” with the N-word.)

    https://www.nj.com/opinion/2014/04/spare_us_the_lies_about_the_late_hurricane_carter_mulshine.html

    • Agree: Malcolm X-Lax
    • Replies: @Anon
    Dylan is a nasty racemonger. He tries to whip up hysteria (and make a lot of money) by writing narratives that insist that some noxious black criminal is innocent when the guy is actually guilty. People don't recognize the role Dylan has played in teaching a entire generation of Baby Boomers the art of using an Orwellian Big Lie about race. Dylan taught Boomers in our media that in lying about race, you sure can get a lot of publicity from it and make a lot of money out of it.

    He's an expert at whipping up hatred and setting blacks and whites against each other, and profiting financially from it. He's smart enough to know what he's doing. I'll be glad when he's dead and gone. When the Baby Boomers die off, hopefully Dylan's pernicious influence and constant lies will begin to die as well. Dylan constructed an entire fake narrative about his own life--he tried to create a fake Woody Guthie-style background for himself, and he fed it constantly to the press in the 1960s. Dylan also completely hid his marriage to Carol Dennis and his child by her--for decades. When you lie on a scale like that, you're a scoundrel.

    He's also notorious for his plagiarism. See these links (as well as moronic Boomer-excuse making about it):

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/06/bob-dylans-nobel-speech-plagiarism/

    and here: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/sep/28/bob-dylan-paintings

    There's a term to describe people who lie constantly to gain an advantage, and who abuse substances--in Dylan's case--alcohol--and who constantly plagiarize, namely SOCIOPATH. If you have to plagiarize to show talent, that means you don't have any in the first place.
    , @Malcolm X-Lax
    Someone once told me, cryptically, that there's a reason Dylan never plays Hurricane live anymore. Not sure if this is true or not. Whenever I think of Plato's reasoning for banning poets from his ideal Republic, I always think of how compelling Hurricane is and see that Plato had a point. P.S. Re "Joey", I always thought the chorus "King of the streets/Child of clay" was a bit silly. And of course, don't forget, his closest friends, while he was reading Nietzsche and Wilhelm Reich in the joint, were black men because...whatever.
  57. Joni is one of the few women around who have talent equal to a man

    • Replies: @Anon

    Joni is one of the few women around who have talent equal to a man
     
    Carole King was a great talent. Stevie Nicks wrote the best songs for Fleetwood.
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " Joni is one of the few women around who have talent equal to a man"

    Hogwash. There are umpteen women active in the Jazz world who indeed just as talented as any male Jazz player, and myself I prefer to play witha female drummer, when possible.

    In the field of artistic endeavor women are not one iota inferior to men, period, and I say this as a staunch conservative.

    AJM "Mensa" qualified since 1973, airborne trained US army vet, and pro jazz performer.
  58. Anon[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @Whiskey
    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did

    Airplane mattered. Starship was just a hit machine, like Wings(McCartney). And they had two great songs: Miracles and With Your Love… though the two songs sound almost identical.

    Now, this is a curious list, with Stone Roses at the very top. Never heard of the band.

    http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/observer.htm

    • Replies: @Anon
    I've heard the Stone Roses' music and they're horribly overrated. They must have friends in the industry who keep pushing them in the press, sort of the way that talentless band Radiohead keeps having their industry friends push them.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    Stone Roses were a great late 80s-early 90s rock band that had one great album and some good singles prior to succumbing to the drug-fueled lunacy of the Madchester scene.
    , @ben tillman

    Airplane mattered. Starship was just a hit machine, like Wings(McCartney). And they had two great songs: Miracles and With Your Love… though the two songs sound almost identical.
     
    Fast Buck Freddie and Ride the Tiger are better than those two.
    , @PiltdownMan
    It's a phase in their history that's mostly forgotten, but some of Jefferson Airplane's music with Signe Toly Anderson, before Grace Slick replaced her, was exceptional.
  59. How many songs were written about or for Joni? Tangled Up in Blue, Going to California, Sugar Mountain — what else?

  60. @ziel
    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue. When I finished and received the adulation of my friends, my wife was not so impressed and announced "Now you see why nothing ever gets done around our house!"

    That is a magisterial song. As with a number of Dylan songs, just lovely chord changes. We don't think of his 'composing' side as much as his lyrical side obviously, but he's written some great tunes. As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can't think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.

    I too have impressed a gathering of friends with my guitar by singing all 7 verses of Tangled Up in Blue.

    I’m not sure Jerry Garcia ever managed that.

  61. @jim jones
    Joni is one of the few women around who have talent equal to a man

    Joni is one of the few women around who have talent equal to a man

    Carole King was a great talent. Stevie Nicks wrote the best songs for Fleetwood.

  62. I could watch only 20 minutes or so. Will make another attempt.

    Don’t watch the movie if you don’t want it rubbed into your face how old you are. Many things are better off left with your foggy memories.

  63. Dylan sucks.

    I saw him in concert a few years ago and it was one of the worst
    concerts ever. It was just a wall of noise. You could not make out even one word
    or lyric. He simply brayed the whole evening.

    Dylan has to be the most overrated artist of all time.

    Owen Benjamin nails Dylan.

    Cucks love Dylan and that should tell you something.

  64. @Anon
    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did

    Airplane mattered. Starship was just a hit machine, like Wings(McCartney). And they had two great songs: Miracles and With Your Love... though the two songs sound almost identical.

    Now, this is a curious list, with Stone Roses at the very top. Never heard of the band.

    http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/observer.htm

    I’ve heard the Stone Roses’ music and they’re horribly overrated. They must have friends in the industry who keep pushing them in the press, sort of the way that talentless band Radiohead keeps having their industry friends push them.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    Radiohead were decent, but they are horribly overrated.

    The Stone Roses are a bit overrated.

    I would love to know who you believe are worthy musicians, but you're just another Anonfag.

  65. @Father O'Hara
    But if Marine Le Pen crossed and uncrossed her legs,well, how do you think Newman would react to that?

    But if Marine Le Pen crossed and uncrossed her legs,well, how do you think Newman would react to that?

    Flop sweat still.

    Also, the True French are all set to take command and control of the nukes when Marine Le Pen wins in 2022, and the French military is reported to have contingency plans in place to use strategic deportations to maintain order in France, if necessary.

    My concern with Marine Le Pen is that she is a klutz prone to falling into bone dry swimming pools while mowing the lawn. A horrible wag might say she was gabbing with a pal on the phone while mowing the grass and she stepped into the waterless void inadvertently. Marine Le Pen might have crossed and uncrossed her legs while swearing up a storm while waiting to let gravity finish its work.

  66. @Malcolm X-Lax
    For about 20 years I sang "Split up on the docks that night/Both agreeing it was best" before I learned that was the wrong line. In most cases, I prefer my mondegreens to the original lyrics. But I agree, it is a transcendent song. But the surprising key changes, which are such a striking aspect of the song, weren't Dylan's idea. It was one of the guys in the band, a group of Minnesota locals Dylan's bro had assembled for the session.

    There are no key changes in Tangled Up In Blue

    It’s in the key of A and stays in the key of A

    Btw, although there are seven verses they are easy to remember because the song is a story-the verses all connect

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Some of Dylan's songs are more repetitious than the normal verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus structure.
    , @HA
    "There are no key changes in Tangled Up In Blue. It’s in the key of A and stays in the key of A"

    No, the chord charts say the beginning of the verse consist of A, G and D, which is plain vanilla key-of-D.

    It is the rest of the verse or verse-chorus that is in A (up until the very last line, in which a key change is obvious enough to where even people who don't know much about that kind of thing can perceive it).

    It might be more correct to say the song shifts between A mixolydian and A major, but that's still a modulation, effectively.

  67. @peterike
    Does the documentary explain why Dylan is wearing clown makeup? It looks absurd.

    leaves out Dylan’s greatest 1970s song Tangled Up in Blue

    Greatest? To each his own. I prefer Simple Twist of Fate and You're A Big Girl Now from that same album. And while I've always been a sucker for Black Diamond Bay, I wouldn't consider it a better song.

    Dylan had the strange habit of totally reworking songs for live performance, like the "Isis" posted above. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't, like in the "Isis" posted above, which tramples on the lilt of the original. Well, just Bob being Bob.

    Bob is also the ultimate sui generis rock star, and the best Jewish rock star by a country mile. Other than Dylan and a few other notable exceptions, Jews have been surprisingly under-represented among the great rock stars, considering their success in all other entertainment fields. Though like everywhere else, they are often over-praised by the Jewish rock press, witness the generally terrible Randy Newman as an example, and the good but over-rated Leonard Cohen as another.

    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone….

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are “under-represented.”

    • Replies: @peterike

    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars.

     

    They are talentless hacks who wrote parody music.

    The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame.

     

    He's good.

    Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

     

    I know nothing about this person.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

     

    A non-entity.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone….

     

    David Lee Roth and Gene Simmons are both jokes and created nothing of value. Lou Reed and Paul Simon are included in the "few others" I referred to, and neither is among the greatest. The Ramones are B list.

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are “under-represented.”
     
    So Dylan, Reed, Simon, Fagen and I'll give you Joey Ramone and Adam Schlesinger, and half of Mick Jones. And I'll give you Billy Joel, too. That's seven and half people out of many hundreds. That's well below the usual Jewish representation in entertainment. Compare to, say, famous comedians. And only Dylan is top ten. Maybe even the only one in the top twenty.
    , @anon
    paul simon is quality.
    d.l. roth is a vaudeville act. obnoxious.
    gene simmons is a japanese make-up clown. 3rd rate.

    the others I don't know.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    Don't forget Marc Bolan, 10cc, and the Knopfler brothers across the Pond.

    Graham Gouldman of 10cc wrote a whole lot of hits for others in the 1960s. I'd call him the best Jewish rocker, though hardly a "star".
    , @flyingtiger
    Peter Green (baum) of Fleetwood Mac. I saw him ten years ago in a small club in Chicago. Words cannot express how good he was that night. You have to remember that he was past his prime at this time. Remember, he was the guy that Jimi Hendrix want to meet.
    , @nebulafox
    For those with punk tastes, Joey and Tommy Ramone-half the original lineup-were both Jewish.
    , @obwandiyag
    Sorry, but all of them suck except possibly Steely Dan and the Ramones.

    What, are you going to cite Kiss next? Gahhh.

    , @Anonymous
    Dick Dale
    Zal Yanovsky
    Chris Stein
    Lenny Kaye

    and of course Slash (Saul Hudson) and Lenny Kravitz, both "bluish" (Black/Jewish)

    and on the distaff side
    Carly Simon (and sisters)
    Amy Winehouse
    Phoebe Snow
    Genya Ravan



    and where would we be without Hilly (Hillel) Kristol of CBGBs fame?
    , @Malcolm X-Lax
    Hey, don't forget Paul Westerberg!

    "Children by the million sing for Alex Chilton"! As John Lennon said of Jerry Lee Lewis. This was the music of my youth and I'll always dig it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTSJYZyouek

    , @anon
    Hate to admit it because he seems to be a Californian Jewish liberal and I'm a Midwestern Gentile conservative, but after listening almost daily at work to the local mainstream alternative 80's/early 90's retro hour, I have to say Jewish Perry Ferrill and Jane's Addiction may have been the cream of the crop from that era (probably second only to the hippy 60's era for creativity, btw).

    PF has just such a remarkably unique and powerful voice, it's impossible not to be drawn to it (even if you get the feeling he probably regards your demographic group as needing to be re-educated in proper living from his). I actually find it a bit shocking that he seems from all I can tell to have largely disappeared from the performing side of the business and Jane's has been mostly reduced to a footnote in rock music history. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kAIMlISHhU

    , @John
    The entire original lineup of the J. Geils Band was Jewish except for the drummer.
    Peter Blankfeld aka Peter Wolf, Richard Solwitz aka Magic Dick.
    , @Ghost of Bull Moose
    Mick Jones.

    I love Joe and Paul, but the Clash without Mick were complete shite. 'Cut the Crap' indeed.
  68. @peterike

    Sprinsteen is a good lad – standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon…).

     

    Springsteen is NOT a good lad: he's a race and class traitor, and he suffered terrible depression because of it (that's Doctor Peterike's personal diagnosis of the cause of his depression, said depression being public knowledge). He is, however, arguably the best rock songwriter of all time. I said "arguably." Certainly among the ten best ever. Even more impressive since he was mostly play-acting at being the streetwise, hot-rod driving Jersey boy.

    Even more impressive since he was mostly play-acting at being the streetwise, hot-rod driving Jersey boy.

    Prime example:

    I got a ’69 Chevy with a 396 Fuelie heads and a Hurst on the floor

    If I was talking to car people – even Ford or Mopar people – and I told them I had fuelie heads on a BB Chevy, they wouldn’t even bother laughing at me, so great would be their disdain.

    World famous Bruce Springsteen puts it in a song and it’s largely overlooked. It isn’t that he made a technical mistake in a song, it’s that he’s a cultural fake of the highest order. He’s actually like a lot of other musicians who put on cultural costumes. White guys who play the blues are absolutely the worst in this regard. The more traditional the blues they play, the worse they are. I sort of abandoned bluegrass music for the same reasons.

    The difference is that early “Bruce” is/was sort of it’s own “genre” of music (in a manner of speaking) and that does reveal an impressive amount of creativity on his part. I remember hearing his music for the first time in the 70’s and thinking that his sound had some sort of stylistic connection with the past (in terms of rock and roll) without being “tribute” music – an impressive synthesis of old and new, really – but that may have been a wrong interpretation on my part. I’ve liked a few recent songs of his, but now ignore him because of his self-appointed social guru status and his phoniness.

    And Nebraska sucked as bad as the early reviews said it did. I think he surrounded himself with some very talented musicians, arrangers and producers in the early days, and (out of some sense of insecurity) wanted to make an album to prove his success was “all about the songwriting” and not the other stuff…an exercise in egotism, sort of. Despite being a gifted songwriter, he was wrong about his songwriting being able to stand alone, and Nebraska proved it in spades, but the pop mythology surrounding the album eventually took hold (pushed largely by himself.) Actually most of the songs on that album sucked,with a couple of notable exceptions. It rivals Brian Wilson’s Smile as the most overrated album of all time.

    Steve said: ‘Here’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam ShepardHere’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam Shepard’

    I can’t for the life of me figure out why celebrities and entertainers are attracted to other celebrities and entertainers. It rarely works out and it costs them big time. I don’t buy the “common outlook or interest” explanation. I worked in an engineering office, but wasn’t attracted to female engineers (there were a few.) I was a musician but wasn’t necessarily attracted to other musicians. I think of most celebrity and entertainer unions as great monuments to phoniness and emptiness.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Celebrities, such as playwright Sam Shepard, tend to be really good looking.
    , @Anonymous

    Prime example:

    I got a ’69 Chevy with a 396 Fuelie heads and a Hurst on the floor

    If I was talking to car people – even Ford or Mopar people – and I told them I had fuelie heads on a BB Chevy, they wouldn’t even bother laughing at me, so great would be their disdain.

    World famous Bruce Springsteen puts it in a song and it’s largely overlooked. It isn’t that he made a technical mistake in a song, it’s that he’s a cultural fake of the highest order. He’s actually like a lot of other musicians who put on cultural costumes. White guys who play the blues are absolutely the worst in this regard. The more traditional the blues they play, the worse they are. I sort of abandoned bluegrass music for the same reaso
     
    "Fuelie heads" were a small block thing, used on the Rochester mechanical FI engines offered in Corvettes from '57 to '63, but by the early seventies no actual hot rod builder wanted them, except for rules reasons in certain racing classes. Bruce didn't even go to the trouble of vetting his lyrics with actual hot rodders.

    Still: it brings up one thing GM and Fender had in common: stuff they made interchanged.
    Ford and Mopar were like Gibson and Gretsch. Their stuff does not.

    SB and BB engines do not interchange heads or cranks, but the bolt patterns are the same on the transmission end. With Ford, it's a clusterfuck.
  69. @peterike
    Does the documentary explain why Dylan is wearing clown makeup? It looks absurd.

    leaves out Dylan’s greatest 1970s song Tangled Up in Blue

    Greatest? To each his own. I prefer Simple Twist of Fate and You're A Big Girl Now from that same album. And while I've always been a sucker for Black Diamond Bay, I wouldn't consider it a better song.

    Dylan had the strange habit of totally reworking songs for live performance, like the "Isis" posted above. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't, like in the "Isis" posted above, which tramples on the lilt of the original. Well, just Bob being Bob.

    Bob is also the ultimate sui generis rock star, and the best Jewish rock star by a country mile. Other than Dylan and a few other notable exceptions, Jews have been surprisingly under-represented among the great rock stars, considering their success in all other entertainment fields. Though like everywhere else, they are often over-praised by the Jewish rock press, witness the generally terrible Randy Newman as an example, and the good but over-rated Leonard Cohen as another.

    I never could see Randy Newman’s appeal. Others have noticed:

    Leonard Cohen is good if one’s into lugubrious.

    Rush is good.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Randy Newman's extended family has won something like 50 Oscars. His uncle was head of the music scoring department for a big studio and insisted on getting a credit for everything his department turned out.

    Randy is an extremely funny talker in a Rodney Dangerfield sort of way. He might have made a better comedian than musician.

    , @Jim Don Bob
    Leonard Cohen's best song done right with Stevie Ray Vaughan on guitar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0rZ2CPCYBQ
  70. Hey Steve, do you ever by chance listen to “real” music, namely Jazz, and such great artists as Charlie Parker, Stan Getz, Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, Miles, Joe Pass, etc?

    AJM

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Not much.

    I won't come up with a theory to excuse myself. That's my fault.

  71. @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars.

    They are talentless hacks who wrote parody music.

    The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame.

    He’s good.

    Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    I know nothing about this person.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    A non-entity.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone….

    David Lee Roth and Gene Simmons are both jokes and created nothing of value. Lou Reed and Paul Simon are included in the “few others” I referred to, and neither is among the greatest. The Ramones are B list.

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are “under-represented.”

    So Dylan, Reed, Simon, Fagen and I’ll give you Joey Ramone and Adam Schlesinger, and half of Mick Jones. And I’ll give you Billy Joel, too. That’s seven and half people out of many hundreds. That’s well below the usual Jewish representation in entertainment. Compare to, say, famous comedians. And only Dylan is top ten. Maybe even the only one in the top twenty.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Yes, Jews are surprisingly under-over-represented among rock stars. I think it's a little like Italians are under-represented among famous rock stars. Italian pop singers were on top of the world just before the British Invasion, so they had a hard time adjusting to the new era of electric guitar rock.

    American rock and roll -- Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc. -- was pretty much a Red State phenomenon: e.g., Route 66.

    East Coast folks had to play catch-up.

    And the British Invasion: there weren't many Jews in Britain: the Bang the Gong guy and Dire Straits, but not too many others.

    , @HHSIII
    Re Beasties, their first album was parody to a degree but a good one. They were doing the shtick before most of the country had heard the genre.

    And Paul’s Boutique is a great record. Sabotage a great video. All a matter of taste.

    I think some of the Blue Oyster Cult guys were Jewish.
  72. Anon[328] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    "Pop stars come and pop stars go, but amid all this change there is one eternal truth:
    Whenever Bob Dylan writes a song about a guy, the guy is guilty as sin.

    "That was the case with California psychopath George Jackson ("Lord, lord they shot George Jackson down"), New York mobster Joey Gallo ("Joe-eee, Joe-eee, why did they have to come and blow you A-way") and Paterson's own Rubin "Hurricane" Carter (In perhaps the dumbest couplet of a dumb career, Dylan rhymes "trigger" with the N-word.)

    "https://www.nj.com/opinion/2014/04/spare_us_the_lies_about_the_late_hurricane_carter_mulshine.html

    Dylan is a nasty racemonger. He tries to whip up hysteria (and make a lot of money) by writing narratives that insist that some noxious black criminal is innocent when the guy is actually guilty. People don’t recognize the role Dylan has played in teaching a entire generation of Baby Boomers the art of using an Orwellian Big Lie about race. Dylan taught Boomers in our media that in lying about race, you sure can get a lot of publicity from it and make a lot of money out of it.

    He’s an expert at whipping up hatred and setting blacks and whites against each other, and profiting financially from it. He’s smart enough to know what he’s doing. I’ll be glad when he’s dead and gone. When the Baby Boomers die off, hopefully Dylan’s pernicious influence and constant lies will begin to die as well. Dylan constructed an entire fake narrative about his own life–he tried to create a fake Woody Guthie-style background for himself, and he fed it constantly to the press in the 1960s. Dylan also completely hid his marriage to Carol Dennis and his child by her–for decades. When you lie on a scale like that, you’re a scoundrel.

    He’s also notorious for his plagiarism. See these links (as well as moronic Boomer-excuse making about it):

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/06/bob-dylans-nobel-speech-plagiarism/

    and here: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/sep/28/bob-dylan-paintings

    There’s a term to describe people who lie constantly to gain an advantage, and who abuse substances–in Dylan’s case–alcohol–and who constantly plagiarize, namely SOCIOPATH. If you have to plagiarize to show talent, that means you don’t have any in the first place.

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    To my way of thinking Thev Boss had just one really great rock n roll song: 'Born To Run' o' course.
    Aside from that I never paid much attention to the guy. I liked 'Lonely Heart' ,if that's the right title.
    "Got a wife and kids in Baltimore, Jack. I went out for a ride and I never came back.."
    Baltimore?
    You should go back and get them out of there.
    Your kids will turn out like T'eensy Coates.
    Bruce is like Billy Joel. Not a fan,but here and there you hear good stuff. This devotion to Bruce is something that passed me by completely.

    Dylan? I love him. Lot of bad stuff but the good stuff...I was rather proud when I found out Dear Leader and I both appreciate 'Tangled.' Great minds etc.

    As for whiskey and 'We Built This City',he has got to be trolling youse. White women hate,hate,hate that song!
  73. @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    paul simon is quality.
    d.l. roth is a vaudeville act. obnoxious.
    gene simmons is a japanese make-up clown. 3rd rate.

    the others I don’t know.

  74. @peterike
    Does the documentary explain why Dylan is wearing clown makeup? It looks absurd.

    leaves out Dylan’s greatest 1970s song Tangled Up in Blue

    Greatest? To each his own. I prefer Simple Twist of Fate and You're A Big Girl Now from that same album. And while I've always been a sucker for Black Diamond Bay, I wouldn't consider it a better song.

    Dylan had the strange habit of totally reworking songs for live performance, like the "Isis" posted above. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't, like in the "Isis" posted above, which tramples on the lilt of the original. Well, just Bob being Bob.

    Bob is also the ultimate sui generis rock star, and the best Jewish rock star by a country mile. Other than Dylan and a few other notable exceptions, Jews have been surprisingly under-represented among the great rock stars, considering their success in all other entertainment fields. Though like everywhere else, they are often over-praised by the Jewish rock press, witness the generally terrible Randy Newman as an example, and the good but over-rated Leonard Cohen as another.

    Dylan had the strange habit of totally reworking songs for live performance

    That’s probably because Dylan couldn’t sing his hits the way the studio produced his hits.

    I think a strong contender for Dylan’s best is “Chimes of Freedom,” although not the way he performed it.

    Far between sundown’s finish an’ midnight’s broken toll
    We ducked inside the doorway, thunder crashing
    As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds
    Seeming to be the chimes of freedom flashing…

    Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight
    Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight
    An’ for each an’ ev’ry underdog soldier in the night
    An’ we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing

    But the best version is by the Byrds from their 1965 album Mr. Tambourine Man

    Was Dylan a plagiarist?

    Dave Van Ronk gave his account of the song’s origins: “Bob Dylan heard me fooling around with one of my grandmother’s favorites, ‘The Chimes of Trinity,’ a sentimental ballad about Trinity Church, that went something like Tolling for the outcast, tolling for the gay/Tolling for the [something something], long since passed away/As we whiled away the hours, down on old Broadway/And we listened to the chimes of Trinity. He made me sing it for him a few times until he had the gist of it, then reworked it into ‘Chimes of Freedom.’ Her version was better.”

    — Wikipedia

    • Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax
    I don't think anyone, including Dylan himself, could top his performance of Chimes of Freedom from the Newport Folk Festival in 1964.

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1qa67c
    , @J1234
    I've always had the impression that Dylan and Roger McGuinn didn't really like each other. I can't know this for sure (or care that much), but they've both made vaguely condescending public remarks about each other.

    I'm with you on this song, and generally feel that the Byrds' renditions of Dylan songs were a marked improvement over the originals. Dylan songs weren't something I was in the orbit of, however, so I'm no expert or even really a fan.
    , @Anon87
    Richie Havens would say Dylan "borrowed" All Along the Watchtower from him. He didn't seem bitter, just wanted people to know.
    , @Anonymous

    Was Dylan a plagiarist?
     
    At times, he was a plagiARTIST.
  75. @Lot
    From 1966, a minor hit in Texas by the band Mouse and the Traps:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q3D8bnvyQs

    Yeah, that gets the job done more or less.

  76. @peterike

    Sprinsteen is a good lad – standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon…).

     

    Springsteen is NOT a good lad: he's a race and class traitor, and he suffered terrible depression because of it (that's Doctor Peterike's personal diagnosis of the cause of his depression, said depression being public knowledge). He is, however, arguably the best rock songwriter of all time. I said "arguably." Certainly among the ten best ever. Even more impressive since he was mostly play-acting at being the streetwise, hot-rod driving Jersey boy.

    Nailed everything except the vegetarianism.

    His ability to project his, blue-collar, “Boss,” persona as authentic is sociopathic.

  77. @Whiskey
    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

    Glory Days is one of Springsteen’s top two anthems.

    Dancing in the Dark is a radio friendly unit shifter, Springsteen has said so himself.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Glory Days is one of Springsteen’s top two anthems.

    I had a friend was a big baseball player
    Back in high school
    He could throw that speed ball by you
    Make you look like a fool boy

    Uh ... it's a fastball, Bruce. A speed ball is something else.

  78. @peterike

    Sprinsteen is a good lad – standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon…).

     

    Springsteen is NOT a good lad: he's a race and class traitor, and he suffered terrible depression because of it (that's Doctor Peterike's personal diagnosis of the cause of his depression, said depression being public knowledge). He is, however, arguably the best rock songwriter of all time. I said "arguably." Certainly among the ten best ever. Even more impressive since he was mostly play-acting at being the streetwise, hot-rod driving Jersey boy.

    He is, however, arguably the best rock songwriter of all time. I said “arguably.”

    Oh, get real. His best album was the second, because he shut up for long stretches and let his band boogie on.

    His best songs were written with Steve Van Zandt for Southside Johnny. (Liner note: despite the Dutch surnames, this team is 75% Italian.) The discipline of writing for others helps.

    Some of his tighter songs, like “I’m on Fire”, are okay, but, as with Dylan and Randy Newman, they sound much better coming from a professional singer. I like Madeleine Peyroux.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Bruce's best song done right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfzcKpknSY4
  79. @Thoughts
    I just listened to Joni Mitchell's interview on the Baby Boomers

    Thanks Steve! Never would have googled her without this post. Screw Dylan

    Mitchell’s certainly an expert on spoiled Boomer jerks. She abandoned a daughter because keeping a baby would have gotten in the way of her self-indulgent Boomer lifestyle.

    https://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=82

  80. @Anon
    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did

    Airplane mattered. Starship was just a hit machine, like Wings(McCartney). And they had two great songs: Miracles and With Your Love... though the two songs sound almost identical.

    Now, this is a curious list, with Stone Roses at the very top. Never heard of the band.

    http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/observer.htm

    Stone Roses were a great late 80s-early 90s rock band that had one great album and some good singles prior to succumbing to the drug-fueled lunacy of the Madchester scene.

  81. Is Swastika Rehabilitation an annual thing? If so, it should be, pardon the expression, right around the corner.

    Or was it a one-off?

    Mark Your Calendars! It’s Swastika Rehabilitation Week!

    German Judges Allow Raelians to Display Swastikas. Shakira Should Not Have Apologized for Wearing Hers!

  82. @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    Don’t forget Marc Bolan, 10cc, and the Knopfler brothers across the Pond.

    Graham Gouldman of 10cc wrote a whole lot of hits for others in the 1960s. I’d call him the best Jewish rocker, though hardly a “star”.

    • Replies: @ziel
    " I’d call him the best Jewish rocker, though hardly a “star”." - Jews are well represented among songwriters and producers, but not really as stars - they lack that kind of charisma needed for a rock star. But relatively speaking, I think we can safely say that in the Rock world Jews are much less over-represented than they are in other entertainment fields, particularly among the biggest names.
  83. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "The only disappointment in Scorsese’s documentary is that it leaves out Dylan’s greatest 1970s song Tangled Up in Blue."

    Mm. Steady there. Dunno if its better than "Knockin' on Heaven's Door".

    I’ll take this one. Especially this version

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    https://youtu.be/0VLpgttfEM0
  84. @RebelWriter
    Somebody will follow up this post who knows a lot more about the event and the film than I do, I'm sure, but The Last Waltz has always been my favorite concert movie/documentary. I thought it was magic captured on film. I used to pull it out and watch it at least once a year, but I haven't watched in a while now. Electric Dylan showed up to play with his back-up band. Of all the guests who played in that show I found Ronnie Hawkins the only one to be less impressive than Dylan, but that's just me.
    Being a Southern Man, I never needed Neil Young around anyhow, but even with coke in his nose he put on quite a performance. The version of Helpless they did, with Joni Mitchell singing in the background, still gives me chills. They did the best version ever of The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down ever recorded.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jREUrbGGrgM

    You should track down Levon Helm’s autobiography This Wheel’s On Fire (c. 1990) for some background on this film and on The Band. Terrific read. Great movie.

  85. @Reg Cæsar
    Don't forget Marc Bolan, 10cc, and the Knopfler brothers across the Pond.

    Graham Gouldman of 10cc wrote a whole lot of hits for others in the 1960s. I'd call him the best Jewish rocker, though hardly a "star".

    ” I’d call him the best Jewish rocker, though hardly a “star”.” – Jews are well represented among songwriters and producers, but not really as stars – they lack that kind of charisma needed for a rock star. But relatively speaking, I think we can safely say that in the Rock world Jews are much less over-represented than they are in other entertainment fields, particularly among the biggest names.

  86. @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    Peter Green (baum) of Fleetwood Mac. I saw him ten years ago in a small club in Chicago. Words cannot express how good he was that night. You have to remember that he was past his prime at this time. Remember, he was the guy that Jimi Hendrix want to meet.

  87. @Dieter Kief

    As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can’t think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.
     
    Sprinsteen is a good lad - standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon...).
    Its what Steve Sailer once said, if you're not that much of a genius, your arguments (=your songs) have to be good. And some of his songs are good.

    Darkness on the Edge of Town, Born in the USA ("Hey little girl is your daddy home..."), Nebraska (the cop who sings about his robber-brother: "nothing feels better than blood on blood" ...).

    Agree, Bruce has written an usually large # of really good songs, but it’s the combination of his lyrical genius and simple (but punchy) melodies that make them so memorable.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Elvis has rock star charisma but couldn't write anything.

    Dylan could compose songs and perform but couldn't be a stage sensation like Elvis or James Brown.

    Springsteen has Elvis-like persona and song-writing chops, an odd combination.

    Some composer-performers had charisma and presence but nothing like that of Elvis. Beatles had power as a group. Each on his own wasn't much as stage act. Jagger was a savvy performer but he needed the band to complete him. He didn't have the lone star quality of Elvis.

    Springsteen really had alpha qualities on stage. He could take command all on his own. Sure, there was the band and Clarence with sax, but he was the dominant force. He alone could rock the audience.

    Singer-songwriters were popular in the 70s, but they tended to be poetic types, or beta-personalities like James Taylor and Jackson Brown. Herbivores. Neil Young was rougher and manlier, but he was still more poet than performer.
    Springsteen really made for an unlikely rock figure. He came across blue-collar and crude like a 50s greaser. Red meat and hearty serving of potatoes. And yet, his literary talents were comparable to those of the Folk-Beat scene.
    He was like the Fonz crossed with Allen Ginsburg. This is why I could never really get into him. True, he was one of the great rockers from 75 to 85, but I never quite bought his act, incredible as it was. "Thunder Road" is a great song. Very working class and earthy in emotions. But it sounds more like the product of Iowa University Writing Program than the passion of the common dude. It's also very wordy even though Springsteens' breathless gushing delivery turns into a blur and makes it work. Still, I'm both impressed and bemused.

    You can hide 'neath your covers and study your pain
    Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain
    Waste your summer praying in vain
    For a savior to rise from these streets
    Well now, I ain't no hero, that's understood
    All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
    With a chance to make it good somehow
    Hey, what else can we do now?

    That's some good stuff, but what Common Dude goes on about "Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain/Waste your summer praying in vain/For a savior to rise from these streets"?

    We're riding out tonight to case the promised land

    Wonderful, but I never heard a common dude go on about 'casing the promised land'.

    There were ghosts in the eyes of all the boys you sent away
    They haunt this dusty beach road in the skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets
    They scream your name at night in the street
    Your graduation gown lies in rags at their feet
    And in the lonely cool before dawn

    Tremendous use of imagery but "skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets" sounds more literary than lived. It sounds like Sha Na Na doing trying to do "Visions of Johanna".

    The harmonicas play
    The skeleton keys and the rain
    And these visions of Johanna
    Are now all that remain

    Still, Springsteen was like the Michelangelo of Rock in that he embodied everything. While other Renaissance artists were better at Michelangelo in certain things, he was the all-around artist like the gymnast who wins the medal for the combined events. Or like the decathlete. Springsteen could write, he could rock, he could be poet, he could be wild man, he was everything under the sun. He could do ballads, he could do hard rock. He could do folk, he could do electric. He could wow the elites, he could turn on the masses.. that is until his muse dried up after Born in the USA, a bigger hit than Born to Run and the River(his masterpiece) because he toned down the literary aspects and rocked harder.

  88. @peterike

    For about 20 years I sang “Split up on the docks that night/Both agreeing it was best” before I learned that was the wrong line.

     

    Lol! I always thought that was the line too. I just had to go look it up:

    We drove that car as far as we could
    Abandoned it out West
    Split up on a dark sad night
    Both agreeing it was best


    Honestly "split up on the docks that night" is a better lyric.

    I always thought it was pretty funny how Joan Baez got the words to “Night they Drove Ol’ Dixie Down” so wrong, being that she was Dylan’s lover and he was living with the Band at the time (or at least around the same time), and probably could have gotten it straightened out with one phone call. But then if she did call Bobby (and maybe she did), he probably would have just responded with something like “Hey, whatever words you hear are the right words for you, just go with it”.

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    I wonder if she got some blowback about that song from her old boyfriend ,Dr. Martin Luther King?
    "Now lookie here,why you be singing about dem crackazz fo?"
    Oh--
    I guess the timeline doesn't work,lol. Never mind.
  89. @Anon
    "Pop stars come and pop stars go, but amid all this change there is one eternal truth:
    Whenever Bob Dylan writes a song about a guy, the guy is guilty as sin.

    "That was the case with California psychopath George Jackson ("Lord, lord they shot George Jackson down"), New York mobster Joey Gallo ("Joe-eee, Joe-eee, why did they have to come and blow you A-way") and Paterson's own Rubin "Hurricane" Carter (In perhaps the dumbest couplet of a dumb career, Dylan rhymes "trigger" with the N-word.)

    "https://www.nj.com/opinion/2014/04/spare_us_the_lies_about_the_late_hurricane_carter_mulshine.html

    Someone once told me, cryptically, that there’s a reason Dylan never plays Hurricane live anymore. Not sure if this is true or not. Whenever I think of Plato’s reasoning for banning poets from his ideal Republic, I always think of how compelling Hurricane is and see that Plato had a point. P.S. Re “Joey”, I always thought the chorus “King of the streets/Child of clay” was a bit silly. And of course, don’t forget, his closest friends, while he was reading Nietzsche and Wilhelm Reich in the joint, were black men because…whatever.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    There are interview clips with an elderly Ruben "Hurricane" Carter in the movie dressed in a Superfly pimp suit costume.

    I assumed those were made up by Scorsese, but I guess not.

  90. @Alfa158
    I like Derman’s job title; Professor of Financial Engineering. I think it is useful to be able to work in economics but still distinguish what you do from the run of the mill practitioners of the dismal “science” of economics typified by writers for The Economist.
    In these times when someone is writing as an economist you all too frequently can expect complex mathematical analysis distorted to the service of some crazy self-contradictory stew of left wing political axe grinding, open borders nation destruction, grievance mongering, pandering to rapacious global capitalism, wishful thinking, wacky sociology, consistently wrong forecasts, financial self-promotion and political polemics.
    When you identify as a Financial Engineer you can convey the message that you are at least attempting to build a mathematically designed, functional bridge made out of sound structural materials, unlike the other guys who are cobbling together a bridge using old statues of politicians and philosophers, and telling us it is safe to drive over it.

    Derman’s background is in physics, not economics: he was a PhD physicist before getting into finance. He talked a bit about that, and about financial engineering, in this commencement speech at Berkeley a few years ago: http://emanuelderman.com/speech-at-commencement-2014-to-berkeley-mse-grads/

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    The Derman-paper you link to is interesting indeed!

    That's almost right:


    We don’t know the correct stochastic partial differential equations for a stock or its volatility. Maybe we never will, because people’s behavior changes. There are no proven models that work reliably.
     
    This is not quite right. It's rather safe to say: we never will. And the reason is, that not only people's behavior changes but - - - the world (our environment) does so too. And all that changes constantly, as does our understanding of a given situation - or a given environment. The world as perceived by humans (=our world) thus is never the same, and the fact that financial models work is a miracle of sorts - and will always be.

    His Goethe reference at the end of his paper is a bit disappointing. Not only because he talks about Goethe as the Romantic, what is a bit strange, since Goethe strongly opposed Romanticism and called it the ill mode of life. Derman seems to have read a book about Goethe, or maybe just an essay about a book about Goethe recently and seems to just talk about what he remembers.

    So no big wonder, that Derman does not get, that Goethe was an economist, too. He worked as the secretary of state for the Duke of Weimar for a few decades. - And Goethe discovered and practiced the hidden bidder system, which has been popularized by eBay. Not to mention Goehte's Faust II, which features not least a sub-plot about the improvement of the national income of a young prospering state.

    , @Miro23

    That’s how I like to picture what we can do in financial modeling – making a beautiful and truthful description of what we can see. We’re involved in intuiting, inventing or concocting approximate laws and patterns. We can synthesize both art and science in creating understanding. We can use our intuition, our scientific knowledge and our pedagogical skills to paint a picture of how think qualitatively, and then, within limits, quantitatively, about the world of human affairs, and in so doing, have an impact on how other people think.

    Go out there, have a good impact, and have a good time.
     
    Emanuel Derman. Commencement Speech Berkeley 2014 MSE Grads.

    OT, but that's how a whole a whole generation was eased into "financial engineering", and abandoned the hard sciences while what was left of unfashionable manufacturing was outsourced to Asia along with the supply networks, jobs and skills.
  91. Joe South is an underrated songwriter (“Games People Play”, “Walk a Mile in My Shoes”, “Don’t It Make You Want to Go Home?”). Here’s one he wrote for The Tams. (The lyrics on lyrics.com and all the rest are f—-d up.

    Not too long ago
    You said you’d love me till the end
    But lately you’re indifferent
    And I can’t even be your friend

    If I’m really such a bore
    And you don’t want me any more
    Release my heart so I can love again

    So untie me
    Untie me baby
    You’re not ever there when I need you
    You don’t care where I go or what I do
    So untie me

    Well if you’ve found a new love
    I won’t put the blame on you
    But just give me a chance
    To start my life anew

    If you’re really gonna go
    I want to be the first to know
    So break these chains that bind my heart to you

    So untie me etc.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Joe South is an underrated songwriter
     
    "I Never Promised You A Rose Garden" has to hold the record for the number of clichés packed into a song. I'm pretty certain Joe was being ironic, but Lynn and her customers, I'm not so sure about.

    These guys did South before "Smoke":


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W1PNvopXjbg
  92. @RebelWriter
    Somebody will follow up this post who knows a lot more about the event and the film than I do, I'm sure, but The Last Waltz has always been my favorite concert movie/documentary. I thought it was magic captured on film. I used to pull it out and watch it at least once a year, but I haven't watched in a while now. Electric Dylan showed up to play with his back-up band. Of all the guests who played in that show I found Ronnie Hawkins the only one to be less impressive than Dylan, but that's just me.
    Being a Southern Man, I never needed Neil Young around anyhow, but even with coke in his nose he put on quite a performance. The version of Helpless they did, with Joni Mitchell singing in the background, still gives me chills. They did the best version ever of The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down ever recorded.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jREUrbGGrgM

    It is a great film. For me the highlight has always been Van Morrison’s exuberant performance of Caravan. The DVD commentary to the film is excellent, too. Apparently, Morrison was terrified of performing live on this night (respecting the gravity of the company he was in) but boy does he pull it off. A standout performance on a night where every performance stood out.

  93. Anon[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @ziel
    Agree, Bruce has written an usually large # of really good songs, but it's the combination of his lyrical genius and simple (but punchy) melodies that make them so memorable.

    Elvis has rock star charisma but couldn’t write anything.

    Dylan could compose songs and perform but couldn’t be a stage sensation like Elvis or James Brown.

    Springsteen has Elvis-like persona and song-writing chops, an odd combination.

    Some composer-performers had charisma and presence but nothing like that of Elvis. Beatles had power as a group. Each on his own wasn’t much as stage act. Jagger was a savvy performer but he needed the band to complete him. He didn’t have the lone star quality of Elvis.

    Springsteen really had alpha qualities on stage. He could take command all on his own. Sure, there was the band and Clarence with sax, but he was the dominant force. He alone could rock the audience.

    Singer-songwriters were popular in the 70s, but they tended to be poetic types, or beta-personalities like James Taylor and Jackson Brown. Herbivores. Neil Young was rougher and manlier, but he was still more poet than performer.
    Springsteen really made for an unlikely rock figure. He came across blue-collar and crude like a 50s greaser. Red meat and hearty serving of potatoes. And yet, his literary talents were comparable to those of the Folk-Beat scene.
    He was like the Fonz crossed with Allen Ginsburg. This is why I could never really get into him. True, he was one of the great rockers from 75 to 85, but I never quite bought his act, incredible as it was. “Thunder Road” is a great song. Very working class and earthy in emotions. But it sounds more like the product of Iowa University Writing Program than the passion of the common dude. It’s also very wordy even though Springsteens’ breathless gushing delivery turns into a blur and makes it work. Still, I’m both impressed and bemused.

    You can hide ‘neath your covers and study your pain
    Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain
    Waste your summer praying in vain
    For a savior to rise from these streets
    Well now, I ain’t no hero, that’s understood
    All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
    With a chance to make it good somehow
    Hey, what else can we do now?

    That’s some good stuff, but what Common Dude goes on about “Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain/Waste your summer praying in vain/For a savior to rise from these streets”?

    We’re riding out tonight to case the promised land

    Wonderful, but I never heard a common dude go on about ‘casing the promised land’.

    There were ghosts in the eyes of all the boys you sent away
    They haunt this dusty beach road in the skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets
    They scream your name at night in the street
    Your graduation gown lies in rags at their feet
    And in the lonely cool before dawn

    Tremendous use of imagery but “skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets” sounds more literary than lived. It sounds like Sha Na Na doing trying to do “Visions of Johanna”.

    The harmonicas play
    The skeleton keys and the rain
    And these visions of Johanna
    Are now all that remain

    Still, Springsteen was like the Michelangelo of Rock in that he embodied everything. While other Renaissance artists were better at Michelangelo in certain things, he was the all-around artist like the gymnast who wins the medal for the combined events. Or like the decathlete. Springsteen could write, he could rock, he could be poet, he could be wild man, he was everything under the sun. He could do ballads, he could do hard rock. He could do folk, he could do electric. He could wow the elites, he could turn on the masses.. that is until his muse dried up after Born in the USA, a bigger hit than Born to Run and the River(his masterpiece) because he toned down the literary aspects and rocked harder.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Dylan says in Scorsese's documentary: What people don't know about Allen Ginsburg is he was a really great dancer.

    And Scorsese shows footage of the fat, middle-aged Ginsburg doing some 1940s dance -- the Lindy Hop? -- and, yeah, he was terrific.

    , @Anon
    It was too much Springsteen all over the place in the 1970s and 1980s that made start listening to punk. I was thoroughly sick of overwrought, silly music like his.
    , @Anonymous

    Some composer-performers had charisma and presence but nothing like that of Elvis. Beatles had power as a group. Each on his own wasn’t much as stage act. Jagger was a savvy performer but he needed the band to complete him. He didn’t have the lone star quality of Elvis.
     
    Jagger is the canonical and consummate front man for a rock and roll band, but he needs his band, the Rolling Stones. The Richards/Wyman/Watts rhythm engine made it work. Keith was a better solo artist than Mick.

    And as great as the Stones rhythm section is, it in turn needs a certain type of front man to work.
    I can't imagine Roger Daltrey fronting them, or Robert Plant. Maybe Freddie Mercury, maybe.

    The opposite of the Stones rhythm engine is what you see in those few bands that have succeeded with front women. In each case you have one dominant person laying down the beat in a very unambiguous fashion. That would be the drummer.
    , @BB753
    As for Dylan, he could do a lot of things but singing is not one of them. That's why Dylan covers sound better than Dylan's original versions.
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " He was everything under the sun"

    Yeah great except he has no fucking clue as what "singing" is, he is a screamer with no musical talent, a non-plus-ultra phoney, basta.

    AJM

  94. Anon[169] • Disclaimer says:

    https://soundopinions.org/show/3/#brucespringsteen

    It’s strange but I found myself agreeing 100% with Kot and 100% with Derogatis in the above recording.

    There’s no denying the all-around talent of Springsteen, but on some level, it’s almost like Broadway Rock, like Sha Na Na for serious people, but in some ways, phonier for the pretensions.

    In some ways, John Cougar Melonhead and Bryan Adams were more honest performers. Less pretension. Still, Springsteen was a giant, they weren’t.

    As for Derogatis’ complaint that Springsteen was ‘looking back’ whereas people like Smith and Ramones were ‘looking forward’, what does it matter? Good is good, bad is bad.
    Looking back, the best of Abba and Carpenters are preferable to Smith and Ramones.

  95. Bob Dylan is without a doubt the most overrated songwriter of all time. He is a pipsqueak next to Tom Waits and Brian Wilson

  96. Overrated:

    Bob Dylan
    Bruce Springsteen
    U2
    Phil Collins

  97. @Reg Cæsar

    He is, however, arguably the best rock songwriter of all time. I said “arguably.”
     
    Oh, get real. His best album was the second, because he shut up for long stretches and let his band boogie on.

    His best songs were written with Steve Van Zandt for Southside Johnny. (Liner note: despite the Dutch surnames, this team is 75% Italian.) The discipline of writing for others helps.

    Some of his tighter songs, like "I'm on Fire", are okay, but, as with Dylan and Randy Newman, they sound much better coming from a professional singer. I like Madeleine Peyroux.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMYXtabfp-w
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ_P8ezZIrI

    Bruce’s best song done right:

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    Finally. One of you comes up with a band that is actually good.
    , @ziel
    Absolutely 100% agree.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    No.

    This is Springsteen done right:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMaCg4fpJKg
  98. Anonymous [AKA "Suburban_elk_17"] says:
    @Whiskey
    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

    If you’re going to fail in your criticism, fail hard.

    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

  99. OT:

    Steve, looks like we’re going to need another Iran thread…

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    No, we're not. Trump pulled the plug on warmonger Bolton.
  100. @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    For those with punk tastes, Joey and Tommy Ramone-half the original lineup-were both Jewish.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Yeah, but it was Dee Dee who was their chief songwriter, and he wasn't Jewish. His mother was from Germany, in fact.
  101. @Whiskey
    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

    We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did

    This is some kind of a joke, right? Will someone explain it for me?

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    It’s an amusing jab at Steve. Misremembering the location he first heard it, three years ago Steve wrote this:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/who-is-kamala-harris/


    By the way, did Jefferson Airplane/Starship ever have another good song after Darby Slick’s “Somebody to Love” and Grace Slick’s “White Rabbit?” Granted, Jefferson Starship’s “We Built This City on Rock and Roll” is Homer Simpson’s favorite song, but when I worked in a dental repair equipment business in the summer of 1978, that always struck me as the worst song we had to listen to on the radio, and perhaps the worst song ever on the radio.
     
    , @Malcolm X-Lax
    Whiskey is a bit of jewish american psycho.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ruw9fsh3PNY

  102. @Anonymous

    So now I’m goin’ back again
    I got to get to her somehow
    All the people we used to know
    They’re an illusion to me now
    Some are mathematicians
    Some are carpenters’ wives
    Don’t know how it all got started
    I don’t know what they’re doin’ with their lives
    But me, I’m still on the road
    Headin’ for another joint
    We always did feel the same
    We just saw it from a different point of view
    Tangled up in blue

     
    These don't seem like good lyrics, Steve.

    They’re better within the (musical) context of the song, but Dylan wrote far better lyrics than that. Check out the kaleidoscopic imagery in “Mr Tangerine Man” for example.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    They’re better within the (musical) context of the song, but Dylan wrote far better lyrics than that. Check out the kaleidoscopic imagery in “Mr Tangerine Man” for example.

    They roll with the music perfectly.

    Were Dylan's earlier lyrics better earlier? They were fancier as Dylan was younger, more ambitious, and eager to display his mastery. He wanted to set himself apart from others and be the Eliot/Pound/Rimbaud of Rock. His symbolism reached its peak with Blonde on Blonde.

    But after BoB, his lyrics turned simpler. Dylan didn't like to repeat himself. His attitude was 'been there, done that'. Also, he understood that good writing isn't necessarily fancy or 'complex'.
    Lyrics can be deceptively simple but written to perfection to fit the music, and that is not easy. In some ways, fancy-ness or 'sophistication' can be a crutch for an artist... like Alan Parker's The Wall and Angel Heart that are junk but feign brilliance and significance with lots of fancy editing and tricks of light and shadow. (Artists in many fields turn or return to 'simplicity' once they feel they made their mark with overtly distinct expression. Those who fail to, like Fellini, often grow stale. Woody Allen for one did better to ditch arthouse pretensions and make straight comedy-dramas.)

    Dylan genuinely went through his symbolist stage of career and had nothing more to say in that regard. He abandoned, for the most part, the cryptic and surreal for the concrete and familiar. He'd been to Alice in Wonderland and reacquainted himself with the real and down to earth. Besides, what had been special with Dylan in the 65 and 66 became de riguer with countless artists from 67, what with even Brian Wilson teaming up with Van Dyke Parks to come up with lyrics like

    A diamond necklace played the pawn
    Hand in hand some drummed along, oh
    To a handsome man and baton
    A blind class aristocracy
    Back through the opera glass you see
    The pit and the pendulum drawn


    What had been singular with Dylan had become generic with everyone trying to write fancy lyrics.

    Lennon:

    She's well-acquainted with the touch of the velvet hand
    Like a lizard on a window pane
    The man in the crowd with the multicoloured mirrors
    On his hobnail boots
    Lying with his eyes while his hands are busy
    Working overtime
    A soap impression of his wife which he ate
    And donated to the National Trust


    There is good fancy and there is bad fancy, but fancy lyrics were all over the place in psychedelia to the point of self-parody:

    Good sense, innocence, cripplin' mankind
    Dead kings, many things I can't define
    Occasions, persuasions clutter your mind
    Incense and peppermints, the color of time


    It became a crowded field and Dylan came back to ground. And in some ways, it was more difficult to prove worth in forthright manner without resorting to showy artfulness. The song 'Brandy' by Looking Glass is just straight story-telling but done to perfection like a well-cut piece of diamond. And Dylan regarded Smokey Robinson as the best lyricist because there's nothing to add or subtract in his songs. He added just the right ingredients in the right amounts.

    A song like 'Simple Twist of Fate' has none of the overt poetics of his songs of mid-60s, but it's as powerful if not more so because of the directness of expression and emotions.

    They walked alone by the old canal
    A little confused, I remember well
    And stopped into a strange hotel
    With a neon burning bright
    He felt the heat of the night

    Hit him like a freight train
    Moving with a simple twist of fate

    A saxophone someplace far-off played
    As she was walking on by the arcade
    As the light bust through a beat-up shade
    Where he was wakin' up
    She dropped a coin into the cup
    Of a blind man at the gate
    And forgot about a simple twist of fate


    He woke up, the room was bare
    He didn't see her anywhere
    He told himself he didn't care
    Pushed the window open wide
    Felt an emptiness inside
    To which he just could not relate

    Brought on by a simple twist of fate


    It's Dylan's 'Norwegian Wood' and more powerful.
  103. @Dave Pinsen
    Derman’s background is in physics, not economics: he was a PhD physicist before getting into finance. He talked a bit about that, and about financial engineering, in this commencement speech at Berkeley a few years ago: http://emanuelderman.com/speech-at-commencement-2014-to-berkeley-mse-grads/

    The Derman-paper you link to is interesting indeed!

    That’s almost right:

    We don’t know the correct stochastic partial differential equations for a stock or its volatility. Maybe we never will, because people’s behavior changes. There are no proven models that work reliably.

    This is not quite right. It’s rather safe to say: we never will. And the reason is, that not only people’s behavior changes but – – – the world (our environment) does so too. And all that changes constantly, as does our understanding of a given situation – or a given environment. The world as perceived by humans (=our world) thus is never the same, and the fact that financial models work is a miracle of sorts – and will always be.

    His Goethe reference at the end of his paper is a bit disappointing. Not only because he talks about Goethe as the Romantic, what is a bit strange, since Goethe strongly opposed Romanticism and called it the ill mode of life. Derman seems to have read a book about Goethe, or maybe just an essay about a book about Goethe recently and seems to just talk about what he remembers.

    So no big wonder, that Derman does not get, that Goethe was an economist, too. He worked as the secretary of state for the Duke of Weimar for a few decades. – And Goethe discovered and practiced the hidden bidder system, which has been popularized by eBay. Not to mention Goehte’s Faust II, which features not least a sub-plot about the improvement of the national income of a young prospering state.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Derman’s response:

    https://twitter.com/emanuelderman/status/1142224698383749120?s=21

    When you’re as accomplished as he is in RL, there’s less need to argue online.
  104. @CK
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2yW372qWH8
    watch it after the dylan

    Van Morrison’s “Caravan” is the best performance of the concert, 2h20m-ish. It amped up the crowd and might be the original mic drop. Youtube has great color versions.

    • Replies: @Sane Left Libertarian
    Too many good ones to pick just one. Such A Night, Evangeline, Coyote...
  105. @JMcG
    I used to be a big fan. Saw him multiple times, bought his records up through Ghost of Tom Joad. I can’t bear to listen to him at all anymore. He’s a sanctimonious fraud through and through. I think he knows it himself, and I think it’s eating him up. I heard bits and pieces of his broadway show and it’s a transparent celebration of the scam he’s played on his fans over the years.
    Bob Seger is more like who Springsteen wishes he could be.
    I can’t even muster up the will to bash him any more.

    “He’s a sanctimonious fraud …”

    I admit getting sucked into Springsteen’s working class hero shtick in the 1980s. Born to Run (1975) and Born in the USA (1984), in retrospect, are gangrenous cheesefests. Darkness on the Edge of Town (1978) had its raw moments. But what ultimately sinks the Boss is the saxophone. Rock guitar and sax is an East Coast thing.

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    To my way of thinking Thev Boss had just one really great rock n roll song: 'Born To Run' o' course.
    Aside from that I never paid much attention to the guy. I liked 'Lonely Heart' ,if that's the right title.
    "Got a wife and kids in Baltimore, Jack. I went out for a ride and I never came back.."
    Baltimore?
    You should go back and get them out of there.
    Your kids will turn out like T'eensy Coates.
    Bruce is like Billy Joel. Not a fan,but here and there you hear good stuff. This devotion to Bruce is something that passed me by completely.

    Dylan? I love him. Lot of bad stuff but the good stuff...I was rather proud when I found out Dear Leader and I both appreciate 'Tangled.' Great minds etc.

    As for whiskey and 'We Built This City',he has got to be trolling youse. White women hate,hate,hate that song!
  106. @Jane Plain
    My god, all of this is such peak whiteness. I need a pair of Oakleys.

    My god, all of this is such peak whiteness. I need a pair of Oakleys.

    Jane Plain emigrate to Africa. It’s vibrant and exciting and colorful and nothing like Europe/US. Just never ask to come back.

  107. @Anonymous
    Bob Dylan is not a poet, he is not a musician, he is just horrible.

    One of the many bonuses that will accompany the decline of the Boomers is that we’ll stop hearing about Bob Dylan.

    “… the decline of the Boomers …”

    Tom Petty. Pink Floyd. Van Halen. The Police. Rush. Led Zeppelin. The Partridge Family. And many more. The 70s and 80s golden era of Boomer rock. Rock hit the skids in the late 1990s as the African beats became triumphant.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna

    Tom Petty. Pink Floyd. Van Halen. The Police. Rush. Led Zeppelin. The Partridge Family.
     
    :)

    Hmm....gonna go way out on a limb here and say that one of these things isn't quite like the others.

    , @Anon87
    Rock is dead. Anyone who was into these bands (besides the Partridge Family????) eventually got into metal or became frozen in time and stopped listening to new music.
  108. @Anonymous
    I have but one rule for determining if I want to hang out with someone.

    If they hate Dylan, I don’t want to be around them

    It is an accurate Dork Detector

    Only dorks hate Dylan

    Ancient footprints, everywhere

    Dylan sucks.

    He always sucked.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Eddie Cochran
    The Castaways
    Spider John Koerner
    Leo Kottke
    Lipps, Inc
    Prince
    Morris Day and the Time
    Michael Johnson
    The Gear Daddies
    The Replacements
    The Funseekers
    The Suburbs
    Husker Du
    Ross Sutter
    Rose Arrowsmith DeCoux
    Connie Evingson
    The New Standards
    Trampled By Turtles
    Martin Zellar
    Maud Hixson
    Robert Everest
    Joey Molland
    Haley Bonar

    These are, off the top of my head, acts from or based in Minnesota that are more entertaining than the Hibbing Minstrel ever was.

    I left out the Andrews Sisters and Soul Asylum because they could be as annoying as Bob, and Judy Garland because she left at age four or so and never came back.

  109. @Whiskey
    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

    GQ:

    An Oral History of “We Built This City,” the Worst Song of All Time

    By ROB TANNENBAUM
    August 31, 2016

    Thirty years ago, radio stations and MTV put an insidiously catchy song called “We Built This City” into heavy rotation and kept it there. The hit single gave the members of the band Starship—which emerged from the ashes of Jefferson Starship, successor to Jefferson Airplane, the essential 1960s psychedelic band—unlikely second careers as pop stars. At the time, Starship’s most famous member, singer Grace Slick, was 46.

    But over the years, as ’80s music began to sound dated and ludicrous—and no song sounds more ’80s than “We Built This City”—it developed a hideous reputation: the worst song of all time. Blender magazine first crowned it thus in 2004, and the label has stuck, thanks to a series of online polls, thickening into something close to empirical fact.

  110. @Mr McKenna

    We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did
     
    This is some kind of a joke, right? Will someone explain it for me?

    It’s an amusing jab at Steve. Misremembering the location he first heard it, three years ago Steve wrote this:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/who-is-kamala-harris/

    By the way, did Jefferson Airplane/Starship ever have another good song after Darby Slick’s “Somebody to Love” and Grace Slick’s “White Rabbit?” Granted, Jefferson Starship’s “We Built This City on Rock and Roll” is Homer Simpson’s favorite song, but when I worked in a dental repair equipment business in the summer of 1978, that always struck me as the worst song we had to listen to on the radio, and perhaps the worst song ever on the radio.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    Just a tad far-fetched, no? But I'm no expert on Whiskey.
  111. @Sane Left Libertarian
    Personally I think that we still have a lot of great singer/songwriters around and active. Probably not as good as Dylan and Kristofferson and John Stewart and John Phillips and Chris Hillman and Paul Simon, but good nevertheless. Check out Jason Boland , Cody Canada, Brian Henneman, Kevin Welch, Michael Fracasso, or anyone from the Austin scene.

    The problem is IMO that radio is given over completely to rap/techno, country, sports talk, and right wing talk (all with 25 min/hour of ads), NPR, and the occasional classical station. The vast majority of music has been deplatformed.

    The Summit.fm. Lots of singer-songwriter types on there.

    • Replies: @Sane Left Libertarian
    Thanks Red. I will give it a listen. I was introduced to many S/S through Mountain Stage which ran on a local college station, but does no longer.
  112. @Dave Pinsen
    Derman’s background is in physics, not economics: he was a PhD physicist before getting into finance. He talked a bit about that, and about financial engineering, in this commencement speech at Berkeley a few years ago: http://emanuelderman.com/speech-at-commencement-2014-to-berkeley-mse-grads/

    That’s how I like to picture what we can do in financial modeling – making a beautiful and truthful description of what we can see. We’re involved in intuiting, inventing or concocting approximate laws and patterns. We can synthesize both art and science in creating understanding. We can use our intuition, our scientific knowledge and our pedagogical skills to paint a picture of how think qualitatively, and then, within limits, quantitatively, about the world of human affairs, and in so doing, have an impact on how other people think.

    Go out there, have a good impact, and have a good time.

    Emanuel Derman. Commencement Speech Berkeley 2014 MSE Grads.

    OT, but that’s how a whole a whole generation was eased into “financial engineering”, and abandoned the hard sciences while what was left of unfashionable manufacturing was outsourced to Asia along with the supply networks, jobs and skills.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    You're blaming Derman's 2014 Berkeley commencement speech for the outsourcing of manufacturing to Asia?
  113. Idiot Wind is right up there, too–all of the significantly different released versions, including this blistering live one:

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Charlatan.
  114. @Rich
    Bob who? This guy is so old he could be the pitching coach for the NY Mets. Do people still really care about Mr Zimmerman and his corny folk songs? He wasn't any good when he was considered good.

    There are two kinds of American, and only two: people who get Bob Dylan and people who don’t.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I "get" him, alright. Doesn't make me a huge fan.

    He has some talent but is really weird on a very basic human level. There's no taking away what he's accomplished, but he's not likeable. Much of his oeuvre is pompous crap.
    , @Mr McKenna
    While I'm out here on this limb, I'm wondering if you can only 'get' one: Dylan or Springsteen. Dylan was so blinding with his talent early on that it might have been hard to believe he was real, but he was. Springsteen I always had my doubts about, though he could clearly write a great song or two.

    Similarly, you're either a Neil Simon fan or a Woody Allen fan, they say.
    I can't stand Neil Simon, but even he could write a joke, or two.
    , @Rich
    Really? In your opinion Mr Zimmerman is some kind of "icon" of American music? Some kind of demarcation line between the "hip" and the "unhip"? Funny. I remember when I was in junior high and kids used to say that about KISS. Pop music isn't really all that important, or, at least shouldn't be. But it takes all kinds.
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " There are two kinds of American, and only two: People who get Bob Dylan and people who don't"

    Okay myself, a professional Jazz performer (winds) with over fifty years on the road engaged in such, the only thing I "get" from Dylan is that he is basically full of shit and a quack musician, as is Springsteen, Lou Reed, L Cohen and the rest of his comrades.

    I guess you are trying to lend some kind of esoteric quality to his musical efforts which require a certain breed of leftist personality to "get".

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Ary vet and pro jazz musician.

  115. @nebulafox
    OT:

    Steve, looks like we're going to need another Iran thread...

    No, we’re not. Trump pulled the plug on warmonger Bolton.

  116. @Whiskey
    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

    “Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did ”

    Tell me you’re joking. This is trolling, right? This is perhaps the most absurd comment ever posted in the history of the internet.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    “Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did ”

    Tell me you’re joking. This is trolling, right? This is perhaps the most absurd comment ever posted in the history of the internet.

     

    It's a masterpiece troll in fact.
  117. @Dieter Kief
    The Derman-paper you link to is interesting indeed!

    That's almost right:


    We don’t know the correct stochastic partial differential equations for a stock or its volatility. Maybe we never will, because people’s behavior changes. There are no proven models that work reliably.
     
    This is not quite right. It's rather safe to say: we never will. And the reason is, that not only people's behavior changes but - - - the world (our environment) does so too. And all that changes constantly, as does our understanding of a given situation - or a given environment. The world as perceived by humans (=our world) thus is never the same, and the fact that financial models work is a miracle of sorts - and will always be.

    His Goethe reference at the end of his paper is a bit disappointing. Not only because he talks about Goethe as the Romantic, what is a bit strange, since Goethe strongly opposed Romanticism and called it the ill mode of life. Derman seems to have read a book about Goethe, or maybe just an essay about a book about Goethe recently and seems to just talk about what he remembers.

    So no big wonder, that Derman does not get, that Goethe was an economist, too. He worked as the secretary of state for the Duke of Weimar for a few decades. - And Goethe discovered and practiced the hidden bidder system, which has been popularized by eBay. Not to mention Goehte's Faust II, which features not least a sub-plot about the improvement of the national income of a young prospering state.

    Derman’s response:

    When you’re as accomplished as he is in RL, there’s less need to argue online.

  118. @Redneck farmer
    The Summit.fm. Lots of singer-songwriter types on there.

    Thanks Red. I will give it a listen. I was introduced to many S/S through Mountain Stage which ran on a local college station, but does no longer.

  119. @Whiskey
    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

    Good job, Whiskey! It seems not everyone is up to speed on deep iSteve lore. You rode the wrecking ball into their guitars.

  120. @Anon
    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did

    Airplane mattered. Starship was just a hit machine, like Wings(McCartney). And they had two great songs: Miracles and With Your Love... though the two songs sound almost identical.

    Now, this is a curious list, with Stone Roses at the very top. Never heard of the band.

    http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/observer.htm

    Airplane mattered. Starship was just a hit machine, like Wings(McCartney). And they had two great songs: Miracles and With Your Love… though the two songs sound almost identical.

    Fast Buck Freddie and Ride the Tiger are better than those two.

  121. @RebelWriter
    Somebody will follow up this post who knows a lot more about the event and the film than I do, I'm sure, but The Last Waltz has always been my favorite concert movie/documentary. I thought it was magic captured on film. I used to pull it out and watch it at least once a year, but I haven't watched in a while now. Electric Dylan showed up to play with his back-up band. Of all the guests who played in that show I found Ronnie Hawkins the only one to be less impressive than Dylan, but that's just me.
    Being a Southern Man, I never needed Neil Young around anyhow, but even with coke in his nose he put on quite a performance. The version of Helpless they did, with Joni Mitchell singing in the background, still gives me chills. They did the best version ever of The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down ever recorded.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jREUrbGGrgM

    The Band’s performance of Mystery Train in that concert kinda grew on me, over time.

  122. There is and always was a huge amount of ethnic nepotism involved in the promotion of Dylan. However, he did write a lot of great songs. I always lead off with Positively Fourth Street, but there are many more.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    There is and always was a huge amount of ethnic nepotism involved in the promotion of Dylan.
     
    There has always been ethnic nepotism in the promotion of songwriting talent in the music business, whether the lyricists of the great Broadway musicals or Brill Building songwriters, to name two obvious examples from a long, long list.

    But the ethnics in question had a way with words.
  123. @Dieter Kief

    As opposed to that other great troubador, Springsteen, of whom I can’t think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.
     
    Sprinsteen is a good lad - standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon...).
    Its what Steve Sailer once said, if you're not that much of a genius, your arguments (=your songs) have to be good. And some of his songs are good.

    Darkness on the Edge of Town, Born in the USA ("Hey little girl is your daddy home..."), Nebraska (the cop who sings about his robber-brother: "nothing feels better than blood on blood" ...).

    Springsteen is also one hell of a live performer. E.g.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    I saw Springsteen once perform in Zürich. I was there with a girl, who later became (and still is) my wife and a roommate, I'm still corresponding with and sharing ideas - - and we were in our best moods even days after the event, I remember that. So yes, you are right, of course, you are right about the life-performer Bruce Springsteen.

    There was one important thing that Springsteen got right and which resonates with the current discourse about our zeitgeist not least here at unz.com, but in the IDW as well (I think of Petersons' lobster now, for example) and that is that he did not succumb to the anarchistic hippie-ideal of structureless structures (=no need for hierarchies... - - - or a boss!)

    (That he embraced being The Boss might well be understood to hint at his (and Steve Bannon's I think) working-class roots, indeed).

  124. @ben tillman
    There is and always was a huge amount of ethnic nepotism involved in the promotion of Dylan. However, he did write a lot of great songs. I always lead off with Positively Fourth Street, but there are many more.

    There is and always was a huge amount of ethnic nepotism involved in the promotion of Dylan.

    There has always been ethnic nepotism in the promotion of songwriting talent in the music business, whether the lyricists of the great Broadway musicals or Brill Building songwriters, to name two obvious examples from a long, long list.

    But the ethnics in question had a way with words.

  125. @Anon
    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did

    Airplane mattered. Starship was just a hit machine, like Wings(McCartney). And they had two great songs: Miracles and With Your Love... though the two songs sound almost identical.

    Now, this is a curious list, with Stone Roses at the very top. Never heard of the band.

    http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/observer.htm

    It’s a phase in their history that’s mostly forgotten, but some of Jefferson Airplane’s music with Signe Toly Anderson, before Grace Slick replaced her, was exceptional.

  126. @Miro23

    That’s how I like to picture what we can do in financial modeling – making a beautiful and truthful description of what we can see. We’re involved in intuiting, inventing or concocting approximate laws and patterns. We can synthesize both art and science in creating understanding. We can use our intuition, our scientific knowledge and our pedagogical skills to paint a picture of how think qualitatively, and then, within limits, quantitatively, about the world of human affairs, and in so doing, have an impact on how other people think.

    Go out there, have a good impact, and have a good time.
     
    Emanuel Derman. Commencement Speech Berkeley 2014 MSE Grads.

    OT, but that's how a whole a whole generation was eased into "financial engineering", and abandoned the hard sciences while what was left of unfashionable manufacturing was outsourced to Asia along with the supply networks, jobs and skills.

    You’re blaming Derman’s 2014 Berkeley commencement speech for the outsourcing of manufacturing to Asia?

    • Replies: @Miro23

    OT, but that’s how a whole a whole generation was eased into “financial engineering”, and abandoned the hard sciences while what was left of unfashionable manufacturing was outsourced to Asia along with the supply networks, jobs and skills.

    You’re blaming Derman’s 2014 Berkeley commencement speech for the outsourcing of manufacturing to Asia?
     

     
    It doesn't belong on this thread, but Derman was making a speech about "financial engineering" (fashionable and exciting) not "industrial engineering" (dull and boring) in the already long running Neoliberal financialization tradition.

    In 1900 the British loved to hear speeches about their Imperial Destiny. It was the Zeitgeist.
  127. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @JMcG
    I used to be a big fan. Saw him multiple times, bought his records up through Ghost of Tom Joad. I can’t bear to listen to him at all anymore. He’s a sanctimonious fraud through and through. I think he knows it himself, and I think it’s eating him up. I heard bits and pieces of his broadway show and it’s a transparent celebration of the scam he’s played on his fans over the years.
    Bob Seger is more like who Springsteen wishes he could be.
    I can’t even muster up the will to bash him any more.

    Springsteen is a hard worker, driven, but his “blue collar” persona is horseshit and he knows it.
    No one I knew who worked in a steel mill listened to him.

    He would not have lasted a week in a heavy industrial job.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Springsteen has said his stage persona is modeled on his father's affect, not his own.
    , @Malcolm X-Lax
    I used to be a Springsteen fanatic. Saw him multiple times in the 1980s and early 90s. I even saw Bruce at the very first Neil Young Bridge Benefit concert (the one where they recorded Bruce doing "Fire" with Nils Lofgren. I was about 8th row center. I do still love his early stuff (from Greetings to The River) but, yeah, the working class hero stuff is long past its sell by date.

    I remember reading how one of his more stressful parenting decisions was whether to buy his daughter the $80k pony or the pony that only cost $50k. My understanding is he went with the $80k horse. Here's a little piece about her in business insider.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/jessica-springsteen-equestrian-life-2018-2#the-united-states-equestrian-federation-now-ranks-springsteen-as-the-ninth-best-show-jumper-in-the-country-since-2010-shes-won-1255443-in-prize-money-9

    P.S. Am I the only one surprised to read that Springsteen is only worth $75 million?
  128. @SunBakedSuburb
    "... the decline of the Boomers ..."

    Tom Petty. Pink Floyd. Van Halen. The Police. Rush. Led Zeppelin. The Partridge Family. And many more. The 70s and 80s golden era of Boomer rock. Rock hit the skids in the late 1990s as the African beats became triumphant.

    Tom Petty. Pink Floyd. Van Halen. The Police. Rush. Led Zeppelin. The Partridge Family.

    🙂

    Hmm….gonna go way out on a limb here and say that one of these things isn’t quite like the others.

  129. @Whiskey
    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

    “We Built This City” has a claim to notoriety, all right– it helped put the RRHoF in Cleveland. That, and WMMS. 90% of calls in support of candidate cities came from Ohio.

    Starship wasn’t much of an inspiration.

    They built that city on earthquake detritus, by the way.

  130. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    It’s an amusing jab at Steve. Misremembering the location he first heard it, three years ago Steve wrote this:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/who-is-kamala-harris/


    By the way, did Jefferson Airplane/Starship ever have another good song after Darby Slick’s “Somebody to Love” and Grace Slick’s “White Rabbit?” Granted, Jefferson Starship’s “We Built This City on Rock and Roll” is Homer Simpson’s favorite song, but when I worked in a dental repair equipment business in the summer of 1978, that always struck me as the worst song we had to listen to on the radio, and perhaps the worst song ever on the radio.
     

    Just a tad far-fetched, no? But I’m no expert on Whiskey.

  131. @Anon
    Elvis has rock star charisma but couldn't write anything.

    Dylan could compose songs and perform but couldn't be a stage sensation like Elvis or James Brown.

    Springsteen has Elvis-like persona and song-writing chops, an odd combination.

    Some composer-performers had charisma and presence but nothing like that of Elvis. Beatles had power as a group. Each on his own wasn't much as stage act. Jagger was a savvy performer but he needed the band to complete him. He didn't have the lone star quality of Elvis.

    Springsteen really had alpha qualities on stage. He could take command all on his own. Sure, there was the band and Clarence with sax, but he was the dominant force. He alone could rock the audience.

    Singer-songwriters were popular in the 70s, but they tended to be poetic types, or beta-personalities like James Taylor and Jackson Brown. Herbivores. Neil Young was rougher and manlier, but he was still more poet than performer.
    Springsteen really made for an unlikely rock figure. He came across blue-collar and crude like a 50s greaser. Red meat and hearty serving of potatoes. And yet, his literary talents were comparable to those of the Folk-Beat scene.
    He was like the Fonz crossed with Allen Ginsburg. This is why I could never really get into him. True, he was one of the great rockers from 75 to 85, but I never quite bought his act, incredible as it was. "Thunder Road" is a great song. Very working class and earthy in emotions. But it sounds more like the product of Iowa University Writing Program than the passion of the common dude. It's also very wordy even though Springsteens' breathless gushing delivery turns into a blur and makes it work. Still, I'm both impressed and bemused.

    You can hide 'neath your covers and study your pain
    Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain
    Waste your summer praying in vain
    For a savior to rise from these streets
    Well now, I ain't no hero, that's understood
    All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
    With a chance to make it good somehow
    Hey, what else can we do now?

    That's some good stuff, but what Common Dude goes on about "Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain/Waste your summer praying in vain/For a savior to rise from these streets"?

    We're riding out tonight to case the promised land

    Wonderful, but I never heard a common dude go on about 'casing the promised land'.

    There were ghosts in the eyes of all the boys you sent away
    They haunt this dusty beach road in the skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets
    They scream your name at night in the street
    Your graduation gown lies in rags at their feet
    And in the lonely cool before dawn

    Tremendous use of imagery but "skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets" sounds more literary than lived. It sounds like Sha Na Na doing trying to do "Visions of Johanna".

    The harmonicas play
    The skeleton keys and the rain
    And these visions of Johanna
    Are now all that remain

    Still, Springsteen was like the Michelangelo of Rock in that he embodied everything. While other Renaissance artists were better at Michelangelo in certain things, he was the all-around artist like the gymnast who wins the medal for the combined events. Or like the decathlete. Springsteen could write, he could rock, he could be poet, he could be wild man, he was everything under the sun. He could do ballads, he could do hard rock. He could do folk, he could do electric. He could wow the elites, he could turn on the masses.. that is until his muse dried up after Born in the USA, a bigger hit than Born to Run and the River(his masterpiece) because he toned down the literary aspects and rocked harder.

    Dylan says in Scorsese’s documentary: What people don’t know about Allen Ginsburg is he was a really great dancer.

    And Scorsese shows footage of the fat, middle-aged Ginsburg doing some 1940s dance — the Lindy Hop? — and, yeah, he was terrific.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    And Scorsese shows footage of the fat, middle-aged Ginsberg doing some 1940s dance — the Lindy Hop? — and, yeah, he was terrific.
     
    I'm afraid to ask who his partner was. Ginsberg was NAMBLA's best-known member.
  132. @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    Sorry, but all of them suck except possibly Steely Dan and the Ramones.

    What, are you going to cite Kiss next? Gahhh.

  133. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hockamaw
    There are two kinds of American, and only two: people who get Bob Dylan and people who don't.

    I “get” him, alright. Doesn’t make me a huge fan.

    He has some talent but is really weird on a very basic human level. There’s no taking away what he’s accomplished, but he’s not likeable. Much of his oeuvre is pompous crap.

  134. @Malcolm X-Lax
    Someone once told me, cryptically, that there's a reason Dylan never plays Hurricane live anymore. Not sure if this is true or not. Whenever I think of Plato's reasoning for banning poets from his ideal Republic, I always think of how compelling Hurricane is and see that Plato had a point. P.S. Re "Joey", I always thought the chorus "King of the streets/Child of clay" was a bit silly. And of course, don't forget, his closest friends, while he was reading Nietzsche and Wilhelm Reich in the joint, were black men because...whatever.

    There are interview clips with an elderly Ruben “Hurricane” Carter in the movie dressed in a Superfly pimp suit costume.

    I assumed those were made up by Scorsese, but I guess not.

  135. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @JimDandy
    "Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did "

    Tell me you're joking. This is trolling, right? This is perhaps the most absurd comment ever posted in the history of the internet.

    “Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did ”

    Tell me you’re joking. This is trolling, right? This is perhaps the most absurd comment ever posted in the history of the internet.

    It’s a masterpiece troll in fact.

  136. @Hockamaw
    There are two kinds of American, and only two: people who get Bob Dylan and people who don't.

    While I’m out here on this limb, I’m wondering if you can only ‘get’ one: Dylan or Springsteen. Dylan was so blinding with his talent early on that it might have been hard to believe he was real, but he was. Springsteen I always had my doubts about, though he could clearly write a great song or two.

    Similarly, you’re either a Neil Simon fan or a Woody Allen fan, they say.
    I can’t stand Neil Simon, but even he could write a joke, or two.

  137. @Anonymous
    Springsteen is a hard worker, driven, but his "blue collar" persona is horseshit and he knows it.
    No one I knew who worked in a steel mill listened to him.

    He would not have lasted a week in a heavy industrial job.

    Springsteen has said his stage persona is modeled on his father’s affect, not his own.

  138. @Jim Don Bob
    Bruce's best song done right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfzcKpknSY4

    Finally. One of you comes up with a band that is actually good.

  139. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    Dick Dale
    Zal Yanovsky
    Chris Stein
    Lenny Kaye

    and of course Slash (Saul Hudson) and Lenny Kravitz, both “bluish” (Black/Jewish)

    and on the distaff side
    Carly Simon (and sisters)
    Amy Winehouse
    Phoebe Snow
    Genya Ravan

    and where would we be without Hilly (Hillel) Kristol of CBGBs fame?

    • Replies: @Ripple Earthdevil
    Dick Dale was not a tribesman:

    Dick Dale was born Richard Anthony Monsour in Boston, Massachusetts, on May 4, 1937. He was of Lebanese descent from his father, James,[3] and of Polish-Belarusian descent from his mother, Sophia "Fern" (Danksewicz).

    Jorma Kaukonen -- along with Jack Cassady the real musicians in Jefferson Airplane -- is Jewish on his mother's side.

    Mickey Hart, born Michael Steven Hartman, of the Grateful Dead and now Dead and Company, is a tribesman.
  140. @peterike

    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars.

     

    They are talentless hacks who wrote parody music.

    The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame.

     

    He's good.

    Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

     

    I know nothing about this person.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

     

    A non-entity.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone….

     

    David Lee Roth and Gene Simmons are both jokes and created nothing of value. Lou Reed and Paul Simon are included in the "few others" I referred to, and neither is among the greatest. The Ramones are B list.

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are “under-represented.”
     
    So Dylan, Reed, Simon, Fagen and I'll give you Joey Ramone and Adam Schlesinger, and half of Mick Jones. And I'll give you Billy Joel, too. That's seven and half people out of many hundreds. That's well below the usual Jewish representation in entertainment. Compare to, say, famous comedians. And only Dylan is top ten. Maybe even the only one in the top twenty.

    Yes, Jews are surprisingly under-over-represented among rock stars. I think it’s a little like Italians are under-represented among famous rock stars. Italian pop singers were on top of the world just before the British Invasion, so they had a hard time adjusting to the new era of electric guitar rock.

    American rock and roll — Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc. — was pretty much a Red State phenomenon: e.g., Route 66.

    East Coast folks had to play catch-up.

    And the British Invasion: there weren’t many Jews in Britain: the Bang the Gong guy and Dire Straits, but not too many others.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    And the British Invasion: there weren’t many Jews in Britain: the Bang the Gong guy and Dire Straits, but not too many others.
     
    Marc Bolan's mother was indigenous, and it shows in "Ride a White Swan". He had every right to sing this:

    Wear a tall hat like a druid in the old days
    Wear a tall hat and a tatooed gown
    Ride a white swan like the people of the Beltane
    Wear your hair long, babe you can't go wrong…

    Graham Gouldman is the son of a Manchester cantor. You hear that in his '60s minor-key compositions, though 10cc stuck to major scales in the '70s.

    Gouldman played with Wayne Fontana (one of many fake American-sounding names), but farmed out his songs to others. And there were a lot of them.


    Between 1965 and 1967 alone he wrote "For Your Love", "Heart Full of Soul" and "Evil Hearted You" for the Yardbirds, "Look Through Any Window" (with Charles Silverman) and "Bus Stop" for the Hollies, "Listen People", "No Milk Today" and "East West" for Herman's Hermits, "Pamela, Pamela" for Wayne Fontana, "Behind the Door" for St. Louis Union (covered by Cher), "Tallyman" for Jeff Beck and "Going Home", which was a 1967 Australian hit for Normie Rowe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Gouldman#Early_life_and_1960s_pop_career:_1946–1968
     

  141. @Ron Mexico
    Van Morrison's "Caravan" is the best performance of the concert, 2h20m-ish. It amped up the crowd and might be the original mic drop. Youtube has great color versions.

    Too many good ones to pick just one. Such A Night, Evangeline, Coyote…

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    turn up your rah-dee-oh

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44wDwMQVqCc
  142. @Authenticjazzman
    Hey Steve, do you ever by chance listen to "real" music, namely Jazz, and such great artists as Charlie Parker, Stan Getz, Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, Miles, Joe Pass, etc?

    AJM

    Not much.

    I won’t come up with a theory to excuse myself. That’s my fault.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Not much.

    I won’t come up with a theory to excuse myself. That’s my fault.
     
    You should never apologise for not liking jazz. Life is too short to waste time listening to jazz.
  143. @bomag
    I never could see Randy Newman's appeal. Others have noticed:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARP6dXMlWQ8

    Leonard Cohen is good if one's into lugubrious.

    Rush is good.

    Randy Newman’s extended family has won something like 50 Oscars. His uncle was head of the music scoring department for a big studio and insisted on getting a credit for everything his department turned out.

    Randy is an extremely funny talker in a Rodney Dangerfield sort of way. He might have made a better comedian than musician.

  144. @Robert Dolan
    Dylan sucks.

    He always sucked.

    Eddie Cochran
    The Castaways
    Spider John Koerner
    Leo Kottke
    Lipps, Inc
    Prince
    Morris Day and the Time
    Michael Johnson
    The Gear Daddies
    The Replacements
    The Funseekers
    The Suburbs
    Husker Du
    Ross Sutter
    Rose Arrowsmith DeCoux
    Connie Evingson
    The New Standards
    Trampled By Turtles
    Martin Zellar
    Maud Hixson
    Robert Everest
    Joey Molland
    Haley Bonar

    These are, off the top of my head, acts from or based in Minnesota that are more entertaining than the Hibbing Minstrel ever was.

    I left out the Andrews Sisters and Soul Asylum because they could be as annoying as Bob, and Judy Garland because she left at age four or so and never came back.

  145. @J1234

    Even more impressive since he was mostly play-acting at being the streetwise, hot-rod driving Jersey boy.
     
    Prime example:

    I got a '69 Chevy with a 396 Fuelie heads and a Hurst on the floor
     
    If I was talking to car people - even Ford or Mopar people - and I told them I had fuelie heads on a BB Chevy, they wouldn't even bother laughing at me, so great would be their disdain.

    World famous Bruce Springsteen puts it in a song and it's largely overlooked. It isn't that he made a technical mistake in a song, it's that he's a cultural fake of the highest order. He's actually like a lot of other musicians who put on cultural costumes. White guys who play the blues are absolutely the worst in this regard. The more traditional the blues they play, the worse they are. I sort of abandoned bluegrass music for the same reasons.

    The difference is that early "Bruce" is/was sort of it's own "genre" of music (in a manner of speaking) and that does reveal an impressive amount of creativity on his part. I remember hearing his music for the first time in the 70's and thinking that his sound had some sort of stylistic connection with the past (in terms of rock and roll) without being "tribute" music - an impressive synthesis of old and new, really - but that may have been a wrong interpretation on my part. I've liked a few recent songs of his, but now ignore him because of his self-appointed social guru status and his phoniness.

    And Nebraska sucked as bad as the early reviews said it did. I think he surrounded himself with some very talented musicians, arrangers and producers in the early days, and (out of some sense of insecurity) wanted to make an album to prove his success was "all about the songwriting" and not the other stuff...an exercise in egotism, sort of. Despite being a gifted songwriter, he was wrong about his songwriting being able to stand alone, and Nebraska proved it in spades, but the pop mythology surrounding the album eventually took hold (pushed largely by himself.) Actually most of the songs on that album sucked,with a couple of notable exceptions. It rivals Brian Wilson's Smile as the most overrated album of all time.


    Steve said: 'Here’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam ShepardHere’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam Shepard'
     
    I can't for the life of me figure out why celebrities and entertainers are attracted to other celebrities and entertainers. It rarely works out and it costs them big time. I don't buy the "common outlook or interest" explanation. I worked in an engineering office, but wasn't attracted to female engineers (there were a few.) I was a musician but wasn't necessarily attracted to other musicians. I think of most celebrity and entertainer unions as great monuments to phoniness and emptiness.

    Celebrities, such as playwright Sam Shepard, tend to be really good looking.

    • Replies: @J1234

    Celebrities, such as playwright Sam Shepard, tend to be really good looking.
     
    But what did he see in Joni? She's not exactly homely, but she certainly didn't become famous because of her looks (she has a bony face.)

    I see good looking people everywhere. And scores of lesser Joni Mitchell level people every day. There are more ugly people in the world than pretty people, but there are pretty people in many different walks of life.

    A more plausible explanation for celebrity unions might be an aversion to gold diggers, maybe? Also, though I said I don't think common interests would be a factor, there still may be "shared values," i.e. a higher tolerance for infidelity or the self-absorbed degeneracy found in the entertainment class. I really have no idea. Whatever the rationale, the rate of success is exceptionally low.

  146. @Steve Sailer
    Dylan says in Scorsese's documentary: What people don't know about Allen Ginsburg is he was a really great dancer.

    And Scorsese shows footage of the fat, middle-aged Ginsburg doing some 1940s dance -- the Lindy Hop? -- and, yeah, he was terrific.

    And Scorsese shows footage of the fat, middle-aged Ginsberg doing some 1940s dance — the Lindy Hop? — and, yeah, he was terrific.

    I’m afraid to ask who his partner was. Ginsberg was NAMBLA’s best-known member.

    • LOL: Kylie
  147. @The Wild Geese Howard
    Glory Days is one of Springsteen's top two anthems.

    Dancing in the Dark is a radio friendly unit shifter, Springsteen has said so himself.

    Glory Days is one of Springsteen’s top two anthems.

    I had a friend was a big baseball player
    Back in high school
    He could throw that speed ball by you
    Make you look like a fool boy

    Uh … it’s a fastball, Bruce. A speed ball is something else.

    • Agree: ben tillman
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    A speed ball is something else.
     
    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0994/0730/products/Speedball_No._5_Pen_Set_large.jpg?v=1493431603


    Forgive him. He was messing with his frozen zone to remind him of the feeling of romance.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    Sure, but in this clip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vQpW9XRiyM

    ...the prominent neon 'Genesee' sign representing the upstate NY brewery is a pitch perfect call out to working class upstate NY.

    The Detroit Tigers cap on his video son was also a pitch perfect call out to one of the '80s, maybe one of the all-time most kick ass baseball teams.
  148. @Anonymous
    Springsteen is a hard worker, driven, but his "blue collar" persona is horseshit and he knows it.
    No one I knew who worked in a steel mill listened to him.

    He would not have lasted a week in a heavy industrial job.

    I used to be a Springsteen fanatic. Saw him multiple times in the 1980s and early 90s. I even saw Bruce at the very first Neil Young Bridge Benefit concert (the one where they recorded Bruce doing “Fire” with Nils Lofgren. I was about 8th row center. I do still love his early stuff (from Greetings to The River) but, yeah, the working class hero stuff is long past its sell by date.

    I remember reading how one of his more stressful parenting decisions was whether to buy his daughter the $80k pony or the pony that only cost $50k. My understanding is he went with the $80k horse. Here’s a little piece about her in business insider.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/jessica-springsteen-equestrian-life-2018-2#the-united-states-equestrian-federation-now-ranks-springsteen-as-the-ninth-best-show-jumper-in-the-country-since-2010-shes-won-1255443-in-prize-money-9

    P.S. Am I the only one surprised to read that Springsteen is only worth $75 million?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Springsteen's concerts gave excellent value for money.
    , @Anonymous
    but, yeah, the working class hero stuff is long past its sell by date.

    It worked for Moore and Trump.
  149. @Blodg
    There are no key changes in Tangled Up In Blue

    It’s in the key of A and stays in the key of A

    Btw, although there are seven verses they are easy to remember because the song is a story-the verses all connect

    Some of Dylan’s songs are more repetitious than the normal verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus structure.

  150. @Jim Don Bob
    Bruce's best song done right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfzcKpknSY4

    Absolutely 100% agree.

  151. @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    Hey, don’t forget Paul Westerberg!

    “Children by the million sing for Alex Chilton”! As John Lennon said of Jerry Lee Lewis. This was the music of my youth and I’ll always dig it.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Paul Westerberg is an American musician of Swedish descent...


    http://www.browsebiography.com/bio-paul_westerberg.html
  152. @Mr McKenna

    We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did
     
    This is some kind of a joke, right? Will someone explain it for me?

    Whiskey is a bit of jewish american psycho.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Whiskey is a bit of jewish american psycho.
     
    Jews are well aware that Dylan is hyped-up. It's the goys who go gaga over him.
  153. @Steve Sailer
    Not much.

    I won't come up with a theory to excuse myself. That's my fault.

    Not much.

    I won’t come up with a theory to excuse myself. That’s my fault.

    You should never apologise for not liking jazz. Life is too short to waste time listening to jazz.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    "You should never apologise for not liking jazz. Life is too short to waste time listening to jazz."

    Can't totally agree. Chet Baker was both a gifted vocalist and a gifted trumpeter. Time spent listening to his supreme artistry is not time wasted.
  154. @Malcolm X-Lax
    I used to be a Springsteen fanatic. Saw him multiple times in the 1980s and early 90s. I even saw Bruce at the very first Neil Young Bridge Benefit concert (the one where they recorded Bruce doing "Fire" with Nils Lofgren. I was about 8th row center. I do still love his early stuff (from Greetings to The River) but, yeah, the working class hero stuff is long past its sell by date.

    I remember reading how one of his more stressful parenting decisions was whether to buy his daughter the $80k pony or the pony that only cost $50k. My understanding is he went with the $80k horse. Here's a little piece about her in business insider.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/jessica-springsteen-equestrian-life-2018-2#the-united-states-equestrian-federation-now-ranks-springsteen-as-the-ninth-best-show-jumper-in-the-country-since-2010-shes-won-1255443-in-prize-money-9

    P.S. Am I the only one surprised to read that Springsteen is only worth $75 million?

    Springsteen’s concerts gave excellent value for money.

    • Agree: Malcolm X-Lax
  155. Celebrities, such as playwright Sam Shepard, tend to be really good looking.

    The men in Jessica Lange’s life:

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    Dwan was a real scorcher:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk34RXMFgM0
  156. @Malcolm X-Lax
    Hey, don't forget Paul Westerberg!

    "Children by the million sing for Alex Chilton"! As John Lennon said of Jerry Lee Lewis. This was the music of my youth and I'll always dig it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTSJYZyouek


    Paul Westerberg is an American musician of
    Swedish descent…

    http://www.browsebiography.com/bio-paul_westerberg.html

    • Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax
    Someone needs to tell Westerberg this because he's under the impression that he's jewish.

    https://westerberg-paul.livejournal.com/
  157. @Steve Sailer
    Glory Days is one of Springsteen’s top two anthems.

    I had a friend was a big baseball player
    Back in high school
    He could throw that speed ball by you
    Make you look like a fool boy

    Uh ... it's a fastball, Bruce. A speed ball is something else.

    A speed ball is something else.

    Forgive him. He was messing with his frozen zone to remind him of the feeling of romance.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Speedball (or powerball) is a mixture of cocaine (a stimulant) with heroin or morphine (an opioid), taken intravenously or by insufflation.

    Maybe that's what BS meant.
  158. HA says:
    @Blodg
    There are no key changes in Tangled Up In Blue

    It’s in the key of A and stays in the key of A

    Btw, although there are seven verses they are easy to remember because the song is a story-the verses all connect

    There are no key changes in Tangled Up In Blue. It’s in the key of A and stays in the key of A”

    No, the chord charts say the beginning of the verse consist of A, G and D, which is plain vanilla key-of-D.

    It is the rest of the verse or verse-chorus that is in A (up until the very last line, in which a key change is obvious enough to where even people who don’t know much about that kind of thing can perceive it).

    It might be more correct to say the song shifts between A mixolydian and A major, but that’s still a modulation, effectively.

    • Replies: @Blodg
    You are out of your depth on this topic I’m afraid

    There are chord changes but no key changes in TUIB

    First verse is A to G over A to D

    Then E-F#m-A-D then G-D-A

    The entire song is in A

    You don’t seem to understand what a key change is
  159. @Hockamaw
    There are two kinds of American, and only two: people who get Bob Dylan and people who don't.

    Really? In your opinion Mr Zimmerman is some kind of “icon” of American music? Some kind of demarcation line between the “hip” and the “unhip”? Funny. I remember when I was in junior high and kids used to say that about KISS. Pop music isn’t really all that important, or, at least shouldn’t be. But it takes all kinds.

  160. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @J1234

    Even more impressive since he was mostly play-acting at being the streetwise, hot-rod driving Jersey boy.
     
    Prime example:

    I got a '69 Chevy with a 396 Fuelie heads and a Hurst on the floor
     
    If I was talking to car people - even Ford or Mopar people - and I told them I had fuelie heads on a BB Chevy, they wouldn't even bother laughing at me, so great would be their disdain.

    World famous Bruce Springsteen puts it in a song and it's largely overlooked. It isn't that he made a technical mistake in a song, it's that he's a cultural fake of the highest order. He's actually like a lot of other musicians who put on cultural costumes. White guys who play the blues are absolutely the worst in this regard. The more traditional the blues they play, the worse they are. I sort of abandoned bluegrass music for the same reasons.

    The difference is that early "Bruce" is/was sort of it's own "genre" of music (in a manner of speaking) and that does reveal an impressive amount of creativity on his part. I remember hearing his music for the first time in the 70's and thinking that his sound had some sort of stylistic connection with the past (in terms of rock and roll) without being "tribute" music - an impressive synthesis of old and new, really - but that may have been a wrong interpretation on my part. I've liked a few recent songs of his, but now ignore him because of his self-appointed social guru status and his phoniness.

    And Nebraska sucked as bad as the early reviews said it did. I think he surrounded himself with some very talented musicians, arrangers and producers in the early days, and (out of some sense of insecurity) wanted to make an album to prove his success was "all about the songwriting" and not the other stuff...an exercise in egotism, sort of. Despite being a gifted songwriter, he was wrong about his songwriting being able to stand alone, and Nebraska proved it in spades, but the pop mythology surrounding the album eventually took hold (pushed largely by himself.) Actually most of the songs on that album sucked,with a couple of notable exceptions. It rivals Brian Wilson's Smile as the most overrated album of all time.


    Steve said: 'Here’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam ShepardHere’s Joni’s song about her love affair with cowboy playwright / actor (Chuck Yeager in The Right Stuff) Sam Shepard'
     
    I can't for the life of me figure out why celebrities and entertainers are attracted to other celebrities and entertainers. It rarely works out and it costs them big time. I don't buy the "common outlook or interest" explanation. I worked in an engineering office, but wasn't attracted to female engineers (there were a few.) I was a musician but wasn't necessarily attracted to other musicians. I think of most celebrity and entertainer unions as great monuments to phoniness and emptiness.

    Prime example:

    I got a ’69 Chevy with a 396 Fuelie heads and a Hurst on the floor

    If I was talking to car people – even Ford or Mopar people – and I told them I had fuelie heads on a BB Chevy, they wouldn’t even bother laughing at me, so great would be their disdain.

    World famous Bruce Springsteen puts it in a song and it’s largely overlooked. It isn’t that he made a technical mistake in a song, it’s that he’s a cultural fake of the highest order. He’s actually like a lot of other musicians who put on cultural costumes. White guys who play the blues are absolutely the worst in this regard. The more traditional the blues they play, the worse they are. I sort of abandoned bluegrass music for the same reaso

    “Fuelie heads” were a small block thing, used on the Rochester mechanical FI engines offered in Corvettes from ’57 to ’63, but by the early seventies no actual hot rod builder wanted them, except for rules reasons in certain racing classes. Bruce didn’t even go to the trouble of vetting his lyrics with actual hot rodders.

    Still: it brings up one thing GM and Fender had in common: stuff they made interchanged.
    Ford and Mopar were like Gibson and Gretsch. Their stuff does not.

    SB and BB engines do not interchange heads or cranks, but the bolt patterns are the same on the transmission end. With Ford, it’s a clusterfuck.

    • Replies: @J1234
    There was a guy on youtube who got between 600 and 700 hp out of a Y-block, Ford's earliest overhead valve v8. My understanding is that he had to more or less fit sb chevy heads/manifolds to the engine (or remake the existing heads essentially into sbc's) to make that happen. Kind of cheating, but the machinist skills needed to do that would be amazing. The Y-block was the antithesis of the sbc, but they're still fun in stock original vehicles. I have three old FoMoCo cars, yet I still don't understand the scope or purpose of all their varied engine designs during that era.
  161. @Sane Left Libertarian
    Too many good ones to pick just one. Such A Night, Evangeline, Coyote...

    turn up your rah-dee-oh

  162. @Reg Cæsar

    Paul Westerberg is an American musician of Swedish descent...


    http://www.browsebiography.com/bio-paul_westerberg.html

    Someone needs to tell Westerberg this because he’s under the impression that he’s jewish.

    https://westerberg-paul.livejournal.com/

    • Replies: @Anon
    That's interesting, because I once researched his ancestry out of curiosity, and the Westerbergs come from this part of Sweden that's right up by the armpit. That's so far north you're in the Arctic Circle. I really doubt any ancestral Jews settled there. It's possible he has a strain of Jewish ancestry from his mother, but his father? Highly unlikely.
  163. anon[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    Hate to admit it because he seems to be a Californian Jewish liberal and I’m a Midwestern Gentile conservative, but after listening almost daily at work to the local mainstream alternative 80’s/early 90’s retro hour, I have to say Jewish Perry Ferrill and Jane’s Addiction may have been the cream of the crop from that era (probably second only to the hippy 60’s era for creativity, btw).

    PF has just such a remarkably unique and powerful voice, it’s impossible not to be drawn to it (even if you get the feeling he probably regards your demographic group as needing to be re-educated in proper living from his). I actually find it a bit shocking that he seems from all I can tell to have largely disappeared from the performing side of the business and Jane’s has been mostly reduced to a footnote in rock music history.

  164. @Anon
    I've heard the Stone Roses' music and they're horribly overrated. They must have friends in the industry who keep pushing them in the press, sort of the way that talentless band Radiohead keeps having their industry friends push them.

    Radiohead were decent, but they are horribly overrated.

    The Stone Roses are a bit overrated.

    I would love to know who you believe are worthy musicians, but you’re just another Anonfag.

  165. @Sparkon

    Dylan had the strange habit of totally reworking songs for live performance
     
    That's probably because Dylan couldn't sing his hits the way the studio produced his hits.

    I think a strong contender for Dylan's best is "Chimes of Freedom," although not the way he performed it.


    Far between sundown's finish an' midnight's broken toll
    We ducked inside the doorway, thunder crashing
    As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds
    Seeming to be the chimes of freedom flashing...

    Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight
    Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight
    An' for each an' ev'ry underdog soldier in the night
    An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing
     

    But the best version is by the Byrds from their 1965 album Mr. Tambourine Man

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaqC7QSXjDU

    Was Dylan a plagiarist?


    Dave Van Ronk gave his account of the song's origins: "Bob Dylan heard me fooling around with one of my grandmother's favorites, 'The Chimes of Trinity,' a sentimental ballad about Trinity Church, that went something like Tolling for the outcast, tolling for the gay/Tolling for the [something something], long since passed away/As we whiled away the hours, down on old Broadway/And we listened to the chimes of Trinity. He made me sing it for him a few times until he had the gist of it, then reworked it into 'Chimes of Freedom.' Her version was better."

    -- Wikipedia
     

    I don’t think anyone, including Dylan himself, could top his performance of Chimes of Freedom from the Newport Folk Festival in 1964.

  166. @Steve Sailer
    Glory Days is one of Springsteen’s top two anthems.

    I had a friend was a big baseball player
    Back in high school
    He could throw that speed ball by you
    Make you look like a fool boy

    Uh ... it's a fastball, Bruce. A speed ball is something else.

    Sure, but in this clip:

    …the prominent neon ‘Genesee’ sign representing the upstate NY brewery is a pitch perfect call out to working class upstate NY.

    The Detroit Tigers cap on his video son was also a pitch perfect call out to one of the ’80s, maybe one of the all-time most kick ass baseball teams.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    …the prominent neon ‘Genesee’ sign representing the upstate NY brewery is a pitch perfect call out to working class upstate NY.
     
    By then he had good consultants?
    , @Ron Mexico
    " maybe one of the all-time most kick ass baseball teams." The Roar of '84, 35-5 to start, 17 straight road victories, 111-59 overall record.
    , @Anon87
    Never doubt the quantity of Genny Cream Ale Kodakers and Xeroids could pound back in the day.
  167. @Jim Don Bob
    Bruce's best song done right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfzcKpknSY4

    No.

    This is Springsteen done right:

  168. @Reg Cæsar

    Celebrities, such as playwright Sam Shepard, tend to be really good looking.
     
    The men in Jessica Lange's life:


    https://artfulliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/431940_263652800400978_1247236825_n-768x707.jpg

    https://iv1.lisimg.com/image/11654540/403full.jpg

    https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2011/12/19/ea0121cb-a644-11e2-a3f0-029118418759/thumbnail/620x465/21457f08ec9f2e6b900e50a4d436d229/57353023.jpg

    Dwan was a real scorcher:

  169. @Anon
    Elvis has rock star charisma but couldn't write anything.

    Dylan could compose songs and perform but couldn't be a stage sensation like Elvis or James Brown.

    Springsteen has Elvis-like persona and song-writing chops, an odd combination.

    Some composer-performers had charisma and presence but nothing like that of Elvis. Beatles had power as a group. Each on his own wasn't much as stage act. Jagger was a savvy performer but he needed the band to complete him. He didn't have the lone star quality of Elvis.

    Springsteen really had alpha qualities on stage. He could take command all on his own. Sure, there was the band and Clarence with sax, but he was the dominant force. He alone could rock the audience.

    Singer-songwriters were popular in the 70s, but they tended to be poetic types, or beta-personalities like James Taylor and Jackson Brown. Herbivores. Neil Young was rougher and manlier, but he was still more poet than performer.
    Springsteen really made for an unlikely rock figure. He came across blue-collar and crude like a 50s greaser. Red meat and hearty serving of potatoes. And yet, his literary talents were comparable to those of the Folk-Beat scene.
    He was like the Fonz crossed with Allen Ginsburg. This is why I could never really get into him. True, he was one of the great rockers from 75 to 85, but I never quite bought his act, incredible as it was. "Thunder Road" is a great song. Very working class and earthy in emotions. But it sounds more like the product of Iowa University Writing Program than the passion of the common dude. It's also very wordy even though Springsteens' breathless gushing delivery turns into a blur and makes it work. Still, I'm both impressed and bemused.

    You can hide 'neath your covers and study your pain
    Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain
    Waste your summer praying in vain
    For a savior to rise from these streets
    Well now, I ain't no hero, that's understood
    All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
    With a chance to make it good somehow
    Hey, what else can we do now?

    That's some good stuff, but what Common Dude goes on about "Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain/Waste your summer praying in vain/For a savior to rise from these streets"?

    We're riding out tonight to case the promised land

    Wonderful, but I never heard a common dude go on about 'casing the promised land'.

    There were ghosts in the eyes of all the boys you sent away
    They haunt this dusty beach road in the skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets
    They scream your name at night in the street
    Your graduation gown lies in rags at their feet
    And in the lonely cool before dawn

    Tremendous use of imagery but "skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets" sounds more literary than lived. It sounds like Sha Na Na doing trying to do "Visions of Johanna".

    The harmonicas play
    The skeleton keys and the rain
    And these visions of Johanna
    Are now all that remain

    Still, Springsteen was like the Michelangelo of Rock in that he embodied everything. While other Renaissance artists were better at Michelangelo in certain things, he was the all-around artist like the gymnast who wins the medal for the combined events. Or like the decathlete. Springsteen could write, he could rock, he could be poet, he could be wild man, he was everything under the sun. He could do ballads, he could do hard rock. He could do folk, he could do electric. He could wow the elites, he could turn on the masses.. that is until his muse dried up after Born in the USA, a bigger hit than Born to Run and the River(his masterpiece) because he toned down the literary aspects and rocked harder.

    It was too much Springsteen all over the place in the 1970s and 1980s that made start listening to punk. I was thoroughly sick of overwrought, silly music like his.

  170. @nebulafox
    For those with punk tastes, Joey and Tommy Ramone-half the original lineup-were both Jewish.

    Yeah, but it was Dee Dee who was their chief songwriter, and he wasn’t Jewish. His mother was from Germany, in fact.

  171. @Sane Left Libertarian
    I'll take this one. Especially this version

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ms1u_hkEmk

  172. Anon[137] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malcolm X-Lax
    Someone needs to tell Westerberg this because he's under the impression that he's jewish.

    https://westerberg-paul.livejournal.com/

    That’s interesting, because I once researched his ancestry out of curiosity, and the Westerbergs come from this part of Sweden that’s right up by the armpit. That’s so far north you’re in the Arctic Circle. I really doubt any ancestral Jews settled there. It’s possible he has a strain of Jewish ancestry from his mother, but his father? Highly unlikely.

    • Replies: @HHSIII
    “We are the sons of no one, bastards of young.”

    -Westerberg
    , @Reg Cæsar
    Westerberg is a Swedish name. Perhaps it's "very Jewish", too. Bergman is kind of like that.

    If his mother is the Jewish one, classify him with the Gyllenhaals (" I'm half Jewish and was raised as a Jew"-- Maggie), Scarlett Johannson, and Jorma Kaukonen.

    But not James "Iggy Pop" Osterberg.
  173. @the one they call Desanex
    Joe South is an underrated songwriter (“Games People Play”, “Walk a Mile in My Shoes”, “Don’t It Make You Want to Go Home?”). Here’s one he wrote for The Tams. (The lyrics on lyrics.com and all the rest are f----d up.

    Not too long ago
    You said you’d love me till the end
    But lately you’re indifferent
    And I can’t even be your friend

    If I’m really such a bore
    And you don’t want me any more
    Release my heart so I can love again

    So untie me
    Untie me baby
    You’re not ever there when I need you
    You don’t care where I go or what I do
    So untie me

    Well if you’ve found a new love
    I won’t put the blame on you
    But just give me a chance
    To start my life anew

    If you’re really gonna go
    I want to be the first to know
    So break these chains that bind my heart to you

    So untie me etc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ2KYOIbhng

    Joe South is an underrated songwriter

    “I Never Promised You A Rose Garden” has to hold the record for the number of clichés packed into a song. I’m pretty certain Joe was being ironic, but Lynn and her customers, I’m not so sure about.

    These guys did South before “Smoke”:

    • Replies: @the one they call Desanex
    I won’t post it here, but if you get a chance, you might want to listen to the last song Joe South ever recorded (in 2009), “Oprah Cried” (it’s on youtube). The lyrics are on genius.com, but where it says

    She rolled ’em right to the ceilin’
    I was about to climb the wall

    I think it should be

    She rolled ’er eyes to the ceilin’
    And was about to climb the wall

    It’s a funny song, and his voice still sounded great in his late sixties.

  174. @Steve Sailer
    Yes, Jews are surprisingly under-over-represented among rock stars. I think it's a little like Italians are under-represented among famous rock stars. Italian pop singers were on top of the world just before the British Invasion, so they had a hard time adjusting to the new era of electric guitar rock.

    American rock and roll -- Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc. -- was pretty much a Red State phenomenon: e.g., Route 66.

    East Coast folks had to play catch-up.

    And the British Invasion: there weren't many Jews in Britain: the Bang the Gong guy and Dire Straits, but not too many others.

    And the British Invasion: there weren’t many Jews in Britain: the Bang the Gong guy and Dire Straits, but not too many others.

    Marc Bolan’s mother was indigenous, and it shows in “Ride a White Swan”. He had every right to sing this:

    Wear a tall hat like a druid in the old days
    Wear a tall hat and a tatooed gown
    Ride a white swan like the people of the Beltane
    Wear your hair long, babe you can’t go wrong…

    Graham Gouldman is the son of a Manchester cantor. You hear that in his ’60s minor-key compositions, though 10cc stuck to major scales in the ’70s.

    Gouldman played with Wayne Fontana (one of many fake American-sounding names), but farmed out his songs to others. And there were a lot of them.

    Between 1965 and 1967 alone he wrote “For Your Love”, “Heart Full of Soul” and “Evil Hearted You” for the Yardbirds, “Look Through Any Window” (with Charles Silverman) and “Bus Stop” for the Hollies, “Listen People”, “No Milk Today” and “East West” for Herman’s Hermits, “Pamela, Pamela” for Wayne Fontana, “Behind the Door” for St. Louis Union (covered by Cher), “Tallyman” for Jeff Beck and “Going Home”, which was a 1967 Australian hit for Normie Rowe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Gouldman#Early_life_and_1960s_pop_career:_1946–1968

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Tons of Jewish composers in Brill Building and others. Most performers were black or white but the writers were often Jewish.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27ve_Lost_That_Lovin%27_Feelin%27
  175. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard
    Sure, but in this clip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vQpW9XRiyM

    ...the prominent neon 'Genesee' sign representing the upstate NY brewery is a pitch perfect call out to working class upstate NY.

    The Detroit Tigers cap on his video son was also a pitch perfect call out to one of the '80s, maybe one of the all-time most kick ass baseball teams.

    …the prominent neon ‘Genesee’ sign representing the upstate NY brewery is a pitch perfect call out to working class upstate NY.

    By then he had good consultants?

  176. @Malcolm X-Lax
    Whiskey is a bit of jewish american psycho.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ruw9fsh3PNY

    Whiskey is a bit of jewish american psycho.

    Jews are well aware that Dylan is hyped-up. It’s the goys who go gaga over him.

  177. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    Elvis has rock star charisma but couldn't write anything.

    Dylan could compose songs and perform but couldn't be a stage sensation like Elvis or James Brown.

    Springsteen has Elvis-like persona and song-writing chops, an odd combination.

    Some composer-performers had charisma and presence but nothing like that of Elvis. Beatles had power as a group. Each on his own wasn't much as stage act. Jagger was a savvy performer but he needed the band to complete him. He didn't have the lone star quality of Elvis.

    Springsteen really had alpha qualities on stage. He could take command all on his own. Sure, there was the band and Clarence with sax, but he was the dominant force. He alone could rock the audience.

    Singer-songwriters were popular in the 70s, but they tended to be poetic types, or beta-personalities like James Taylor and Jackson Brown. Herbivores. Neil Young was rougher and manlier, but he was still more poet than performer.
    Springsteen really made for an unlikely rock figure. He came across blue-collar and crude like a 50s greaser. Red meat and hearty serving of potatoes. And yet, his literary talents were comparable to those of the Folk-Beat scene.
    He was like the Fonz crossed with Allen Ginsburg. This is why I could never really get into him. True, he was one of the great rockers from 75 to 85, but I never quite bought his act, incredible as it was. "Thunder Road" is a great song. Very working class and earthy in emotions. But it sounds more like the product of Iowa University Writing Program than the passion of the common dude. It's also very wordy even though Springsteens' breathless gushing delivery turns into a blur and makes it work. Still, I'm both impressed and bemused.

    You can hide 'neath your covers and study your pain
    Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain
    Waste your summer praying in vain
    For a savior to rise from these streets
    Well now, I ain't no hero, that's understood
    All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
    With a chance to make it good somehow
    Hey, what else can we do now?

    That's some good stuff, but what Common Dude goes on about "Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain/Waste your summer praying in vain/For a savior to rise from these streets"?

    We're riding out tonight to case the promised land

    Wonderful, but I never heard a common dude go on about 'casing the promised land'.

    There were ghosts in the eyes of all the boys you sent away
    They haunt this dusty beach road in the skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets
    They scream your name at night in the street
    Your graduation gown lies in rags at their feet
    And in the lonely cool before dawn

    Tremendous use of imagery but "skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets" sounds more literary than lived. It sounds like Sha Na Na doing trying to do "Visions of Johanna".

    The harmonicas play
    The skeleton keys and the rain
    And these visions of Johanna
    Are now all that remain

    Still, Springsteen was like the Michelangelo of Rock in that he embodied everything. While other Renaissance artists were better at Michelangelo in certain things, he was the all-around artist like the gymnast who wins the medal for the combined events. Or like the decathlete. Springsteen could write, he could rock, he could be poet, he could be wild man, he was everything under the sun. He could do ballads, he could do hard rock. He could do folk, he could do electric. He could wow the elites, he could turn on the masses.. that is until his muse dried up after Born in the USA, a bigger hit than Born to Run and the River(his masterpiece) because he toned down the literary aspects and rocked harder.

    Some composer-performers had charisma and presence but nothing like that of Elvis. Beatles had power as a group. Each on his own wasn’t much as stage act. Jagger was a savvy performer but he needed the band to complete him. He didn’t have the lone star quality of Elvis.

    Jagger is the canonical and consummate front man for a rock and roll band, but he needs his band, the Rolling Stones. The Richards/Wyman/Watts rhythm engine made it work. Keith was a better solo artist than Mick.

    And as great as the Stones rhythm section is, it in turn needs a certain type of front man to work.
    I can’t imagine Roger Daltrey fronting them, or Robert Plant. Maybe Freddie Mercury, maybe.

    The opposite of the Stones rhythm engine is what you see in those few bands that have succeeded with front women. In each case you have one dominant person laying down the beat in a very unambiguous fashion. That would be the drummer.

  178. Anonymous[684] • Disclaimer says:
    @JimDandy
    Idiot Wind is right up there, too--all of the significantly different released versions, including this blistering live one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8DylAtPF0I

    Charlatan.

  179. @SunBakedSuburb
    "He's a sanctimonious fraud ..."

    I admit getting sucked into Springsteen's working class hero shtick in the 1980s. Born to Run (1975) and Born in the USA (1984), in retrospect, are gangrenous cheesefests. Darkness on the Edge of Town (1978) had its raw moments. But what ultimately sinks the Boss is the saxophone. Rock guitar and sax is an East Coast thing.

    To my way of thinking Thev Boss had just one really great rock n roll song: ‘Born To Run’ o’ course.
    Aside from that I never paid much attention to the guy. I liked ‘Lonely Heart’ ,if that’s the right title.
    “Got a wife and kids in Baltimore, Jack. I went out for a ride and I never came back..”
    Baltimore?
    You should go back and get them out of there.
    Your kids will turn out like T’eensy Coates.
    Bruce is like Billy Joel. Not a fan,but here and there you hear good stuff. This devotion to Bruce is something that passed me by completely.

    Dylan? I love him. Lot of bad stuff but the good stuff…I was rather proud when I found out Dear Leader and I both appreciate ‘Tangled.’ Great minds etc.

    As for whiskey and ‘We Built This City’,he has got to be trolling youse. White women hate,hate,hate that song!

  180. @Anon
    Dylan is a nasty racemonger. He tries to whip up hysteria (and make a lot of money) by writing narratives that insist that some noxious black criminal is innocent when the guy is actually guilty. People don't recognize the role Dylan has played in teaching a entire generation of Baby Boomers the art of using an Orwellian Big Lie about race. Dylan taught Boomers in our media that in lying about race, you sure can get a lot of publicity from it and make a lot of money out of it.

    He's an expert at whipping up hatred and setting blacks and whites against each other, and profiting financially from it. He's smart enough to know what he's doing. I'll be glad when he's dead and gone. When the Baby Boomers die off, hopefully Dylan's pernicious influence and constant lies will begin to die as well. Dylan constructed an entire fake narrative about his own life--he tried to create a fake Woody Guthie-style background for himself, and he fed it constantly to the press in the 1960s. Dylan also completely hid his marriage to Carol Dennis and his child by her--for decades. When you lie on a scale like that, you're a scoundrel.

    He's also notorious for his plagiarism. See these links (as well as moronic Boomer-excuse making about it):

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/06/bob-dylans-nobel-speech-plagiarism/

    and here: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/sep/28/bob-dylan-paintings

    There's a term to describe people who lie constantly to gain an advantage, and who abuse substances--in Dylan's case--alcohol--and who constantly plagiarize, namely SOCIOPATH. If you have to plagiarize to show talent, that means you don't have any in the first place.

    To my way of thinking Thev Boss had just one really great rock n roll song: ‘Born To Run’ o’ course.
    Aside from that I never paid much attention to the guy. I liked ‘Lonely Heart’ ,if that’s the right title.
    “Got a wife and kids in Baltimore, Jack. I went out for a ride and I never came back..”
    Baltimore?
    You should go back and get them out of there.
    Your kids will turn out like T’eensy Coates.
    Bruce is like Billy Joel. Not a fan,but here and there you hear good stuff. This devotion to Bruce is something that passed me by completely.

    Dylan? I love him. Lot of bad stuff but the good stuff…I was rather proud when I found out Dear Leader and I both appreciate ‘Tangled.’ Great minds etc.

    As for whiskey and ‘We Built This City’,he has got to be trolling youse. White women hate,hate,hate that song!

  181. @Dave Pinsen
    You're blaming Derman's 2014 Berkeley commencement speech for the outsourcing of manufacturing to Asia?

    OT, but that’s how a whole a whole generation was eased into “financial engineering”, and abandoned the hard sciences while what was left of unfashionable manufacturing was outsourced to Asia along with the supply networks, jobs and skills.

    You’re blaming Derman’s 2014 Berkeley commencement speech for the outsourcing of manufacturing to Asia?

    It doesn’t belong on this thread, but Derman was making a speech about “financial engineering” (fashionable and exciting) not “industrial engineering” (dull and boring) in the already long running Neoliberal financialization tradition.

    In 1900 the British loved to hear speeches about their Imperial Destiny. It was the Zeitgeist.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    He was making a speech about financial engineering because that’s his field and he was speaking to future quants; we wasn’t putting down industrial engineering.
  182. @ziel
    I always thought it was pretty funny how Joan Baez got the words to "Night they Drove Ol' Dixie Down" so wrong, being that she was Dylan's lover and he was living with the Band at the time (or at least around the same time), and probably could have gotten it straightened out with one phone call. But then if she did call Bobby (and maybe she did), he probably would have just responded with something like "Hey, whatever words you hear are the right words for you, just go with it".

    I wonder if she got some blowback about that song from her old boyfriend ,Dr. Martin Luther King?
    “Now lookie here,why you be singing about dem crackazz fo?”
    Oh–
    I guess the timeline doesn’t work,lol. Never mind.

  183. Anonymous[235] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malcolm X-Lax
    I used to be a Springsteen fanatic. Saw him multiple times in the 1980s and early 90s. I even saw Bruce at the very first Neil Young Bridge Benefit concert (the one where they recorded Bruce doing "Fire" with Nils Lofgren. I was about 8th row center. I do still love his early stuff (from Greetings to The River) but, yeah, the working class hero stuff is long past its sell by date.

    I remember reading how one of his more stressful parenting decisions was whether to buy his daughter the $80k pony or the pony that only cost $50k. My understanding is he went with the $80k horse. Here's a little piece about her in business insider.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/jessica-springsteen-equestrian-life-2018-2#the-united-states-equestrian-federation-now-ranks-springsteen-as-the-ninth-best-show-jumper-in-the-country-since-2010-shes-won-1255443-in-prize-money-9

    P.S. Am I the only one surprised to read that Springsteen is only worth $75 million?

    but, yeah, the working class hero stuff is long past its sell by date.

    It worked for Moore and Trump.

  184. Anonymous[235] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    And the British Invasion: there weren’t many Jews in Britain: the Bang the Gong guy and Dire Straits, but not too many others.
     
    Marc Bolan's mother was indigenous, and it shows in "Ride a White Swan". He had every right to sing this:

    Wear a tall hat like a druid in the old days
    Wear a tall hat and a tatooed gown
    Ride a white swan like the people of the Beltane
    Wear your hair long, babe you can't go wrong…

    Graham Gouldman is the son of a Manchester cantor. You hear that in his '60s minor-key compositions, though 10cc stuck to major scales in the '70s.

    Gouldman played with Wayne Fontana (one of many fake American-sounding names), but farmed out his songs to others. And there were a lot of them.


    Between 1965 and 1967 alone he wrote "For Your Love", "Heart Full of Soul" and "Evil Hearted You" for the Yardbirds, "Look Through Any Window" (with Charles Silverman) and "Bus Stop" for the Hollies, "Listen People", "No Milk Today" and "East West" for Herman's Hermits, "Pamela, Pamela" for Wayne Fontana, "Behind the Door" for St. Louis Union (covered by Cher), "Tallyman" for Jeff Beck and "Going Home", which was a 1967 Australian hit for Normie Rowe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Gouldman#Early_life_and_1960s_pop_career:_1946–1968
     

    Tons of Jewish composers in Brill Building and others. Most performers were black or white but the writers were often Jewish.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27ve_Lost_That_Lovin%27_Feelin%27

  185. @Dave Pinsen
    Springsteen is also one hell of a live performer. E.g. https://youtu.be/YV4iyk1dzS8

    I saw Springsteen once perform in Zürich. I was there with a girl, who later became (and still is) my wife and a roommate, I’m still corresponding with and sharing ideas – – and we were in our best moods even days after the event, I remember that. So yes, you are right, of course, you are right about the life-performer Bruce Springsteen.

    There was one important thing that Springsteen got right and which resonates with the current discourse about our zeitgeist not least here at unz.com, but in the IDW as well (I think of Petersons’ lobster now, for example) and that is that he did not succumb to the anarchistic hippie-ideal of structureless structures (=no need for hierarchies… – – – or a boss!)

    (That he embraced being The Boss might well be understood to hint at his (and Steve Bannon’s I think) working-class roots, indeed).

  186. @Anon
    Elvis has rock star charisma but couldn't write anything.

    Dylan could compose songs and perform but couldn't be a stage sensation like Elvis or James Brown.

    Springsteen has Elvis-like persona and song-writing chops, an odd combination.

    Some composer-performers had charisma and presence but nothing like that of Elvis. Beatles had power as a group. Each on his own wasn't much as stage act. Jagger was a savvy performer but he needed the band to complete him. He didn't have the lone star quality of Elvis.

    Springsteen really had alpha qualities on stage. He could take command all on his own. Sure, there was the band and Clarence with sax, but he was the dominant force. He alone could rock the audience.

    Singer-songwriters were popular in the 70s, but they tended to be poetic types, or beta-personalities like James Taylor and Jackson Brown. Herbivores. Neil Young was rougher and manlier, but he was still more poet than performer.
    Springsteen really made for an unlikely rock figure. He came across blue-collar and crude like a 50s greaser. Red meat and hearty serving of potatoes. And yet, his literary talents were comparable to those of the Folk-Beat scene.
    He was like the Fonz crossed with Allen Ginsburg. This is why I could never really get into him. True, he was one of the great rockers from 75 to 85, but I never quite bought his act, incredible as it was. "Thunder Road" is a great song. Very working class and earthy in emotions. But it sounds more like the product of Iowa University Writing Program than the passion of the common dude. It's also very wordy even though Springsteens' breathless gushing delivery turns into a blur and makes it work. Still, I'm both impressed and bemused.

    You can hide 'neath your covers and study your pain
    Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain
    Waste your summer praying in vain
    For a savior to rise from these streets
    Well now, I ain't no hero, that's understood
    All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
    With a chance to make it good somehow
    Hey, what else can we do now?

    That's some good stuff, but what Common Dude goes on about "Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain/Waste your summer praying in vain/For a savior to rise from these streets"?

    We're riding out tonight to case the promised land

    Wonderful, but I never heard a common dude go on about 'casing the promised land'.

    There were ghosts in the eyes of all the boys you sent away
    They haunt this dusty beach road in the skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets
    They scream your name at night in the street
    Your graduation gown lies in rags at their feet
    And in the lonely cool before dawn

    Tremendous use of imagery but "skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets" sounds more literary than lived. It sounds like Sha Na Na doing trying to do "Visions of Johanna".

    The harmonicas play
    The skeleton keys and the rain
    And these visions of Johanna
    Are now all that remain

    Still, Springsteen was like the Michelangelo of Rock in that he embodied everything. While other Renaissance artists were better at Michelangelo in certain things, he was the all-around artist like the gymnast who wins the medal for the combined events. Or like the decathlete. Springsteen could write, he could rock, he could be poet, he could be wild man, he was everything under the sun. He could do ballads, he could do hard rock. He could do folk, he could do electric. He could wow the elites, he could turn on the masses.. that is until his muse dried up after Born in the USA, a bigger hit than Born to Run and the River(his masterpiece) because he toned down the literary aspects and rocked harder.

    As for Dylan, he could do a lot of things but singing is not one of them. That’s why Dylan covers sound better than Dylan’s original versions.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Dylan singing Mr. Tambourine Man:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYF8Y47qZQY

    The Byrds

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyOzGPbn2tg

    , @Anonymous
    As for Dylan, he could do a lot of things but singing is not one of them. That’s why Dylan covers sound better than Dylan’s original versions.

    This is why he wrote personal songs that had maximum meaning when sung by him.

    "Like a Rolling Stone" is a great whiny bitter song. It makes sense coming from Dylan but would sound stupid from Sinatra, Andy Williams, or Elvis.

    Elvis singing the song would think,"Why am I ranting like a whiny loser dork about some tart when I can get all the girls?"

    Being a most unlikely rock star was part of Dylan's appeal.
    Prior to Dylan, a lot of Jews stuck to composing and left the performances to others, to those who could sing better. Dylan overrode this by making the music personal.

  187. @JMcG
    I used to be a big fan. Saw him multiple times, bought his records up through Ghost of Tom Joad. I can’t bear to listen to him at all anymore. He’s a sanctimonious fraud through and through. I think he knows it himself, and I think it’s eating him up. I heard bits and pieces of his broadway show and it’s a transparent celebration of the scam he’s played on his fans over the years.
    Bob Seger is more like who Springsteen wishes he could be.
    I can’t even muster up the will to bash him any more.

    Bruce Springsteen woke up as a star right in the middle of the crossroad (cf. Robert Johnson and Greil Marcus). That worked for a while. But then something strange happened, and his position in the middle of the crossroad running through the races and through big money and small banks – – marked the longer the more between egalitarianism (=idealism) and factual (sorry to mention such dirty letters here) racial differences. These strange things, which surfaced slowly but steadily along with Bruce Springsteen’s ascend to megastardom were, what – the longer they lasted, the more so: Ripped his value system apart. – His coat of ideals became shiny and in the end was“Torn and Frayed” (Jagger/Richards).

    Dylan escaped these loopholes in the deteriorating crossroads I sketched above by finding religion. Springsteen tried hard not to get lost in the pitfalls of Western reality. But his vulnerability when he was out on the crossroads when the circumstances were more (incredibly more) peaceful and friendly (= USA 1970 ff.) turned out to be something completely different from the vulnerability he encountered at the time, The Times were a-changing – a-changing in a different way, than the optimistic mood of the Sixties had led people to expect. Times were becoming harder now, not least economically – starting in the late seventies, early eighties.
    And from then on, Bruce Springsteen got into big trouble: All of a sudden, he found himself in an “Exile on Main Street” (The Stones), which he could not handle at all. – Being exiled on main street USA, he got under the bus – and just because he is no sunny boy – since as such, he could have tried to simply laugh his way out of his (severe) conundrums.

    So – his value system did not fit reality any longer, and he had no cure for that. He started to dwindle down artistically (Tunnel of Love…) and – – – -to suffer from depression. – His status as a big star started to decline too, I agree with you on that.

    He did have a great time though. To appreciate this, one has to understand his limitations – and say goodbye to one’s own blue-eyed glorious days of old(…) and days of gold (Dylan – Self-Portrait (!)), since as youth goes by, we all necessarily lose our youthful Purity (Jonathan Franzen) and have to confront (excuse me for using just one more dirty word) reality (see Steve Sailer’s motto and Jackson Browne, in – – – – Cocaine).

    When that has happened, we have to come to grips with a life – – – – “After the Gold-Rush”. There’s nothing wrong with that. But it does mean to acknowledge, that life ain’t a dream no more, its the real thing (Dylan/Senor – Dreams of Yankee Power on Slow Train Coming) – and as such, as the real thing, life is: Less sparkling and therefore more reliable. That’s the existential deal of becoming a grown-up – – – if one has gotten out of this dream-stuff with one’s senses intact, that is, after having traded in the ideals of one’s youth (Schiller) for – – – sanity and reason. Freidrich Schiller adds (in Don Carlos), that it is important nonetheless, to hold the dreams of one’s youth in dear respect – but as something, that has necessarily to be transformed, I’d add here, shortening a longer and more profound argument, but not disgracing it.
    All in all, that might sound harsher than it is though. – Hasn’t it been quite boring and confusing too, at times, when we were young? And isn’t life still sparkling, here and there, in our older eyes, too?

    • Replies: @HHSIII
    Greil Marcus’s father, Greil Gerstley, died during WWII. He was executive officer of the USS Hull, which sank during Typhoon Cobra. His men had asked him to take over for the commander but he refused, pointing out there’d never been a mutiny on a U.S. navy ship. It was the basis for The Caine Mutiny.
    , @JMcG
    Life is even more sparkling for me now as I age. It’s like the golden hour before sunset. I just wish I were leaving a better place for my kids.
  188. @peterike

    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars.

     

    They are talentless hacks who wrote parody music.

    The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame.

     

    He's good.

    Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

     

    I know nothing about this person.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

     

    A non-entity.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone….

     

    David Lee Roth and Gene Simmons are both jokes and created nothing of value. Lou Reed and Paul Simon are included in the "few others" I referred to, and neither is among the greatest. The Ramones are B list.

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are “under-represented.”
     
    So Dylan, Reed, Simon, Fagen and I'll give you Joey Ramone and Adam Schlesinger, and half of Mick Jones. And I'll give you Billy Joel, too. That's seven and half people out of many hundreds. That's well below the usual Jewish representation in entertainment. Compare to, say, famous comedians. And only Dylan is top ten. Maybe even the only one in the top twenty.

    Re Beasties, their first album was parody to a degree but a good one. They were doing the shtick before most of the country had heard the genre.

    And Paul’s Boutique is a great record. Sabotage a great video. All a matter of taste.

    I think some of the Blue Oyster Cult guys were Jewish.

  189. @Whiskey
    Bob Dylan, way over rated. Same with Springsteen. Though there is a hilarious parody is Springsteen singing the Flintstones theme song.

    Starship? Very under rated. We Built This City is a better song than anything Dylan ever did and only Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark matches it.

    Count on Me and Miracles are underrated.

  190. @Dieter Kief

    As opposed to that other great troubadour, Springsteen, of whom I can’t think of any song with particularly interesting chord sequences.
     
    Springsteen is a good lad - standing on the shoulders of his predecessors (Dylan, Page, Young, Lennon...).
    Its what Steve Sailer once said, if you're not that much of a genius, your arguments (=your songs) have to be good. And some of his songs are good.

    Darkness on the Edge of Town, Born in the USA ("Hey little girl is your daddy home..."), Nebraska (the cop who sings about his robber-brother: "nothing feels better than blood on blood" ...).

    Thunder Road and Badlands. Sandy.

    Then again, I’m from Jersey.

  191. @The Wild Geese Howard
    Sure, but in this clip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vQpW9XRiyM

    ...the prominent neon 'Genesee' sign representing the upstate NY brewery is a pitch perfect call out to working class upstate NY.

    The Detroit Tigers cap on his video son was also a pitch perfect call out to one of the '80s, maybe one of the all-time most kick ass baseball teams.

    ” maybe one of the all-time most kick ass baseball teams.” The Roar of ’84, 35-5 to start, 17 straight road victories, 111-59 overall record.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My friend Bill from Detroit wanted to go see the red hot Detroit Tigers play the White Sox on Saturday, April 7, 1984:

    Bill: "Jack Morris is pitching on Saturday!"
    Me: "Ehhh ... Let's go on Sunday."

    Saturday afternoon I turn on the game with 2 outs in the 9th and hear Vin Scully say:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kojLsWSm9A

    10 seconds later, the phone rings:

    Me: "Hi, Bill. Uh ... Sorry."

    Bill: "How'd you know it was me calling?"

    To make it worse, while it had been sunny and pleasant on Saturday when he wanted to go, it was about 40 degrees on Sunday when we did go to the game. At least he Tigers won again to mollify the poor guy.

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    The tragedy of that bunch is that they only won one World Series.

    Also pretty bitter about the WS Detroit choked away in '06 and '11.
  192. @BB753
    As for Dylan, he could do a lot of things but singing is not one of them. That's why Dylan covers sound better than Dylan's original versions.

    Dylan singing Mr. Tambourine Man:

    The Byrds

    • Replies: @BB753
    Also compare "All Around the Watchtower" by Dylan and Hendrix.

    https://youtu.be/bT7Hj-ea0VE


    https://youtu.be/TLV4_xaYynY
    , @HHSIII
    Dylan’s singing back then fit some of his songs. From a Buick 6.

    Or from your favorite Dylan album, Meet Me in the Morning.
  193. @Anon
    That's interesting, because I once researched his ancestry out of curiosity, and the Westerbergs come from this part of Sweden that's right up by the armpit. That's so far north you're in the Arctic Circle. I really doubt any ancestral Jews settled there. It's possible he has a strain of Jewish ancestry from his mother, but his father? Highly unlikely.

    “We are the sons of no one, bastards of young.”

    -Westerberg

  194. @Steve Sailer
    Dylan singing Mr. Tambourine Man:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYF8Y47qZQY

    The Byrds

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyOzGPbn2tg

    Also compare “All Around the Watchtower” by Dylan and Hendrix.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Ironically, Hendrix said he decided to sing because Dylan couldn't but did anyways.

    The 'singing' in Hendrix's All Along the Watchtower is by the guitar.
  195. @Ron Mexico
    " maybe one of the all-time most kick ass baseball teams." The Roar of '84, 35-5 to start, 17 straight road victories, 111-59 overall record.

    My friend Bill from Detroit wanted to go see the red hot Detroit Tigers play the White Sox on Saturday, April 7, 1984:

    Bill: “Jack Morris is pitching on Saturday!”
    Me: “Ehhh … Let’s go on Sunday.”

    Saturday afternoon I turn on the game with 2 outs in the 9th and hear Vin Scully say:

    10 seconds later, the phone rings:

    Me: “Hi, Bill. Uh … Sorry.”

    Bill: “How’d you know it was me calling?”

    To make it worse, while it had been sunny and pleasant on Saturday when he wanted to go, it was about 40 degrees on Sunday when we did go to the game. At least he Tigers won again to mollify the poor guy.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    Morris was one of my favorites on that team.

    Glad one of the best gunslingers is finally in the HoF.
    , @Ron Mexico
    Thanks for the story. My dad, who usually took me to one game a year when the Tigers were in Anaheim, went without me and saw the Tigers 17th straight road win. Then, because he worked in the Thoroughbred Horse Racing in SoCal (Del Mar, Holly Park and Santa Anita) and got tickets to great events, we were to go to game 6 of the WS in SD at the Murph. Kirk Gibson made sure game 6 didn't happen.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    I had the best ticket I ever had (not counting as a guest at a skybox party) right behind home plate. I arrived in the second inning. And am glad I did.

    Kirby Puckett's career had just ended in the first.

    That's when you want the worst seat in the house. Better yet, the concession stand or the toilet.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_VXeME6YMoY


    The other time being late was a blessing was at the Barcelona Olympics. In hellish heat and humidity, it took them two hours to get to the fourth inning.

  196. @Steve Sailer
    Dylan singing Mr. Tambourine Man:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYF8Y47qZQY

    The Byrds

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyOzGPbn2tg

    Dylan’s singing back then fit some of his songs. From a Buick 6.

    Or from your favorite Dylan album, Meet Me in the Morning.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Buick made only eights until the V6 in the mid 60s. "Buick Eight" makes sense. Six no.
  197. @Dieter Kief
    Bruce Springsteen woke up as a star right in the middle of the crossroad (cf. Robert Johnson and Greil Marcus). That worked for a while. But then something strange happened, and his position in the middle of the crossroad running through the races and through big money and small banks - - marked the longer the more between egalitarianism (=idealism) and factual (sorry to mention such dirty letters here) racial differences. These strange things, which surfaced slowly but steadily along with Bruce Springsteen's ascend to megastardom were, what - the longer they lasted, the more so: Ripped his value system apart. - His coat of ideals became shiny and in the end was"Torn and Frayed" (Jagger/Richards).

    Dylan escaped these loopholes in the deteriorating crossroads I sketched above by finding religion. Springsteen tried hard not to get lost in the pitfalls of Western reality. But his vulnerability when he was out on the crossroads when the circumstances were more (incredibly more) peaceful and friendly (= USA 1970 ff.) turned out to be something completely different from the vulnerability he encountered at the time, The Times were a-changing - a-changing in a different way, than the optimistic mood of the Sixties had led people to expect. Times were becoming harder now, not least economically - starting in the late seventies, early eighties.
    And from then on, Bruce Springsteen got into big trouble: All of a sudden, he found himself in an "Exile on Main Street" (The Stones), which he could not handle at all. - Being exiled on main street USA, he got under the bus - and just because he is no sunny boy - since as such, he could have tried to simply laugh his way out of his (severe) conundrums.

    So - his value system did not fit reality any longer, and he had no cure for that. He started to dwindle down artistically (Tunnel of Love...) and - - - -to suffer from depression. - His status as a big star started to decline too, I agree with you on that.

    He did have a great time though. To appreciate this, one has to understand his limitations - and say goodbye to one's own blue-eyed glorious days of old(...) and days of gold (Dylan - Self-Portrait (!)), since as youth goes by, we all necessarily lose our youthful Purity (Jonathan Franzen) and have to confront (excuse me for using just one more dirty word) reality (see Steve Sailer's motto and Jackson Browne, in - - - - Cocaine).

    When that has happened, we have to come to grips with a life - - - - "After the Gold-Rush". There's nothing wrong with that. But it does mean to acknowledge, that life ain't a dream no more, its the real thing (Dylan/Senor - Dreams of Yankee Power on Slow Train Coming) - and as such, as the real thing, life is: Less sparkling and therefore more reliable. That's the existential deal of becoming a grown-up - - - if one has gotten out of this dream-stuff with one's senses intact, that is, after having traded in the ideals of one's youth (Schiller) for - - - sanity and reason. Freidrich Schiller adds (in Don Carlos), that it is important nonetheless, to hold the dreams of one's youth in dear respect - but as something, that has necessarily to be transformed, I'd add here, shortening a longer and more profound argument, but not disgracing it.
    All in all, that might sound harsher than it is though. - Hasn't it been quite boring and confusing too, at times, when we were young? And isn't life still sparkling, here and there, in our older eyes, too?

    Greil Marcus’s father, Greil Gerstley, died during WWII. He was executive officer of the USS Hull, which sank during Typhoon Cobra. His men had asked him to take over for the commander but he refused, pointing out there’d never been a mutiny on a U.S. navy ship. It was the basis for The Caine Mutiny.

  198. @Anon
    That's interesting, because I once researched his ancestry out of curiosity, and the Westerbergs come from this part of Sweden that's right up by the armpit. That's so far north you're in the Arctic Circle. I really doubt any ancestral Jews settled there. It's possible he has a strain of Jewish ancestry from his mother, but his father? Highly unlikely.

    Westerberg is a Swedish name. Perhaps it’s “very Jewish”, too. Bergman is kind of like that.

    If his mother is the Jewish one, classify him with the Gyllenhaals (” I’m half Jewish and was raised as a Jew”– Maggie), Scarlett Johannson, and Jorma Kaukonen.

    But not James “Iggy Pop” Osterberg.

  199. @HA
    "There are no key changes in Tangled Up In Blue. It’s in the key of A and stays in the key of A"

    No, the chord charts say the beginning of the verse consist of A, G and D, which is plain vanilla key-of-D.

    It is the rest of the verse or verse-chorus that is in A (up until the very last line, in which a key change is obvious enough to where even people who don't know much about that kind of thing can perceive it).

    It might be more correct to say the song shifts between A mixolydian and A major, but that's still a modulation, effectively.

    You are out of your depth on this topic I’m afraid

    There are chord changes but no key changes in TUIB

    First verse is A to G over A to D

    Then E-F#m-A-D then G-D-A

    The entire song is in A

    You don’t seem to understand what a key change is

    • Replies: @HA
    "First verse is A to G over A to D. You are out of your depth..."

    And you're projecting. If you've got a G chord (or anything with a G natural for that matter), you're no longer in the key of A major. That's what that third sharp in the key signature of A stands for. It means that you play G-sharp instead of G-natural. If you've got an extended passage where D, G, and A are played, that extended passage is in the key of D, not A.

  200. Anonymous[843] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr McKenna
    They're better within the (musical) context of the song, but Dylan wrote far better lyrics than that. Check out the kaleidoscopic imagery in "Mr Tangerine Man" for example.

    They’re better within the (musical) context of the song, but Dylan wrote far better lyrics than that. Check out the kaleidoscopic imagery in “Mr Tangerine Man” for example.

    They roll with the music perfectly.

    Were Dylan’s earlier lyrics better earlier? They were fancier as Dylan was younger, more ambitious, and eager to display his mastery. He wanted to set himself apart from others and be the Eliot/Pound/Rimbaud of Rock. His symbolism reached its peak with Blonde on Blonde.

    But after BoB, his lyrics turned simpler. Dylan didn’t like to repeat himself. His attitude was ‘been there, done that’. Also, he understood that good writing isn’t necessarily fancy or ‘complex’.
    Lyrics can be deceptively simple but written to perfection to fit the music, and that is not easy. In some ways, fancy-ness or ‘sophistication’ can be a crutch for an artist… like Alan Parker’s The Wall and Angel Heart that are junk but feign brilliance and significance with lots of fancy editing and tricks of light and shadow. (Artists in many fields turn or return to ‘simplicity’ once they feel they made their mark with overtly distinct expression. Those who fail to, like Fellini, often grow stale. Woody Allen for one did better to ditch arthouse pretensions and make straight comedy-dramas.)

    Dylan genuinely went through his symbolist stage of career and had nothing more to say in that regard. He abandoned, for the most part, the cryptic and surreal for the concrete and familiar. He’d been to Alice in Wonderland and reacquainted himself with the real and down to earth. Besides, what had been special with Dylan in the 65 and 66 became de riguer with countless artists from 67, what with even Brian Wilson teaming up with Van Dyke Parks to come up with lyrics like

    A diamond necklace played the pawn
    Hand in hand some drummed along, oh
    To a handsome man and baton
    A blind class aristocracy
    Back through the opera glass you see
    The pit and the pendulum drawn

    What had been singular with Dylan had become generic with everyone trying to write fancy lyrics.

    Lennon:

    She’s well-acquainted with the touch of the velvet hand
    Like a lizard on a window pane
    The man in the crowd with the multicoloured mirrors
    On his hobnail boots
    Lying with his eyes while his hands are busy
    Working overtime
    A soap impression of his wife which he ate
    And donated to the National Trust

    There is good fancy and there is bad fancy, but fancy lyrics were all over the place in psychedelia to the point of self-parody:

    Good sense, innocence, cripplin’ mankind
    Dead kings, many things I can’t define
    Occasions, persuasions clutter your mind
    Incense and peppermints, the color of time

    It became a crowded field and Dylan came back to ground. And in some ways, it was more difficult to prove worth in forthright manner without resorting to showy artfulness. The song ‘Brandy’ by Looking Glass is just straight story-telling but done to perfection like a well-cut piece of diamond. And Dylan regarded Smokey Robinson as the best lyricist because there’s nothing to add or subtract in his songs. He added just the right ingredients in the right amounts.

    A song like ‘Simple Twist of Fate’ has none of the overt poetics of his songs of mid-60s, but it’s as powerful if not more so because of the directness of expression and emotions.

    They walked alone by the old canal
    A little confused, I remember well
    And stopped into a strange hotel
    With a neon burning bright
    He felt the heat of the night

    Hit him like a freight train
    Moving with a simple twist of fate

    A saxophone someplace far-off played
    As she was walking on by the arcade
    As the light bust through a beat-up shade
    Where he was wakin’ up
    She dropped a coin into the cup
    Of a blind man at the gate
    And forgot about a simple twist of fate

    He woke up, the room was bare
    He didn’t see her anywhere
    He told himself he didn’t care
    Pushed the window open wide
    Felt an emptiness inside
    To which he just could not relate

    Brought on by a simple twist of fate

    It’s Dylan’s ‘Norwegian Wood’ and more powerful.

  201. @Reg Cæsar

    Joe South is an underrated songwriter
     
    "I Never Promised You A Rose Garden" has to hold the record for the number of clichés packed into a song. I'm pretty certain Joe was being ironic, but Lynn and her customers, I'm not so sure about.

    These guys did South before "Smoke":


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W1PNvopXjbg

    I won’t post it here, but if you get a chance, you might want to listen to the last song Joe South ever recorded (in 2009), “Oprah Cried” (it’s on youtube). The lyrics are on genius.com, but where it says

    She rolled ’em right to the ceilin’
    I was about to climb the wall

    I think it should be

    She rolled ’er eyes to the ceilin’
    And was about to climb the wall

    It’s a funny song, and his voice still sounded great in his late sixties.

  202. Anonymous[843] • Disclaimer says:
    @BB753
    Also compare "All Around the Watchtower" by Dylan and Hendrix.

    https://youtu.be/bT7Hj-ea0VE


    https://youtu.be/TLV4_xaYynY

    Ironically, Hendrix said he decided to sing because Dylan couldn’t but did anyways.

    The ‘singing’ in Hendrix’s All Along the Watchtower is by the guitar.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Hendrix was an OK singer, right. Not a virtuoso by any means but way better than Dylan. But his version improved the whole song, along with his band.
  203. Anonymous[843] • Disclaimer says:
    @BB753
    As for Dylan, he could do a lot of things but singing is not one of them. That's why Dylan covers sound better than Dylan's original versions.

    As for Dylan, he could do a lot of things but singing is not one of them. That’s why Dylan covers sound better than Dylan’s original versions.

    This is why he wrote personal songs that had maximum meaning when sung by him.

    “Like a Rolling Stone” is a great whiny bitter song. It makes sense coming from Dylan but would sound stupid from Sinatra, Andy Williams, or Elvis.

    Elvis singing the song would think,”Why am I ranting like a whiny loser dork about some tart when I can get all the girls?”

    Being a most unlikely rock star was part of Dylan’s appeal.
    Prior to Dylan, a lot of Jews stuck to composing and left the performances to others, to those who could sing better. Dylan overrode this by making the music personal.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Perhaps, but I'd rather listen to The Band singing his songs than to Robert Zimmerman, an unlikely star indeed. Zero stage presence, mediocre guitar playing, whiny off-key voice, static, short and ugly, slitted eyes. IMHO, he should have stayed backstage as a composer or lyricist to other composers.
    Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of Bruce Springsteen either. Always struck me as a phony.
  204. @Anonymous
    Mid 70s was for Dylan like the John Travolta Redux moment.

    Travolta was on top of the world in the late 70s with SNF and Grease. But then he starred in one bomb after another and became a laughing stock. He was written off... until he made a huge comeback with Pulp Fiction. Travolta took full advantage of the good fortune and signed up for just about any movie, most of them stinkers. But he got a lot of paychecks. At least he got his second act in the movies.

    Dylan, for various reasons, had been sidelined for nearly a decade. Mostly it was self-exile. Even though he did key work in this period, especially John Wesley Harding and songs like 'Lay Lady Lay', he became more myth than reality. While others were at the forefront of the Zeitgeist, Dylan was in the shadows. Granted, his foray into neo-country had huge influence on others, but he refused to play the leading role. And in the early 70s, he was eclipsed by other singer-songwriters who were doing better work. Cat Stevens, Neil Young, and Joni Mitchell did some of their best work in late 60s and early 70s. Dylan was still releasing albums, but they didn't get the respect that his key works in 65 and 66 did. New Morning and Planet Waves were very good, not great. As for Self-Portrait, a double album, it was mocked more than admired, with Greil Marcus leading the way.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/self-portrait-107056/

    Dylan was being written off as a has-been and nostalgia act at best. No one expected greatness from Dylan anymore. Then came Blood on the Tracks, his best work since John Wesley Harding. And unlike Harding, it was commercially viable. It was like Dylan got his mojo back. 1975 also saw the release of Basement Tapes, featuring some of the best work by Dylan and the Band. Dylan felt like he was on top of the world again. He was at the center of culture, with Newsweek or Time featuring him on the cover. And he was gonna squeeze this moment for all it was worth. It was also his last spurt of 'youth' as he was in his mid-30s. An early onset of mid-age crisis. Rolling Thunder Revue was both nostalgia act and new beginning. Dylan was trying to revive the idealism of the 60s, and he would soon write his protest song 'Hurricane' that became a huge hit(though it's mostly BS). Dylan gathered together his old friends, and it was like a family get-together or class reunion in Fellinesque style. But it wasn't just basking in nostalgia as he also gathered together new talents and plowed ahead in a spirit of adventure and discovery. And in the following year in 76, Dylan would have his biggest hit ever, the album Desire(though in retrospect, it pales next to Tracks). In the Rolling Stone Consumer Guide, Marsh gave both albums 4 stars and said they were marred only by production values. True or not, Tracks has some great songs whereas Desire doesn't. Its love song 'Sara' is sloppy. 'Hurricane' is great as music but is too stupid to take seriously. Only 'Black Diamond Bay' has lasting value.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/desire-255500/

    In 1966, when the eyes of the world were upon him, Dylan walked away. In the mid-70s when the entire 60s scene was fading into oblivion, Dylan made his last-ditch effort to be relevant again(and the media were on his side). But in the end, it was an Indian summer of Counterculture. The only 60s act that was still making a difference was Pink Floyd. Stones would soon do disco.
    It's a common pattern we see among famous people. When they get so much attention, they assume it will be around forever and ignore it. But when they realize the attention is gone and no one really cares anymore, they crave the limelight. Despite the critical and commercial successes with Tracks and Desire, Dylan was swimming against the current unlike the earlier time when the current was carrying him along, if anything too fast, which is why he swam to ground and decided to withdraw from the cultural torrents.

    Dylan had the cinema jinx. This seems odd given his lively personalty and wit. In interviews from the 60s, he's as engaging and funny as the Beatles with the media. But he never clicked with cinema. In Don't Look Back, the Pennebaker documentary, he's too aloof and indifferent for the camera. He comes alive only when he's nastiest, and it's not pleasant. In Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid, he just mopes around. Renaldo and Clara has been called one of the worst rock movies ever.

    http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/new_book_of_rock_lists.htm

    https://whitecitycinema.com/tag/renaldo-and-clara/

    Dylan had confidence in front of a live audience but not in front of the lone camera. On stage, he thrives on audience enthusiasm. In front of journalists, he can say funny things and make them laugh. But in front of a movie camera, he feels small, confused, or just bored. Elvis starred in many forgettable movies, but he had natural rapport with the camera because he was good-looking. Elvis could do nothing but still be a star. Dylan, in contrast, always had to be doing something, and the live audience, fans or media, made him come alive. But in front of camera and crew, he is diminished. Hearts of Fire was panned and ignored. Masked and Anonymous wasn't much either. Even movies about Dylan could be dreadful, like the Todd Haynes film, a piece of complete nonsense, a movie doctoral dissertation on Dylan as 'signs'.

    But then, Scorsese made a first-rate documentary of Dylan with No Direction Home. He also made one of the better Rock movies, the Last Waltz in the 70s. Scorsese seems more interested in the Rock scene than his peers like Spielberg, Lucas(whose musical taste seems to have been stuck on Top 40), Bogdanovich, and etc. DePalma made Phantom of Paradise, but it was Scorsese who devoted his life to making a series of documentary on key 60s rock figures such as Dylan, Stones, and Harrison. Part of the reason could be envious admiration. While film-makers can be 'auteurs', they are never the full authors of their material like song composers/performers. Dylan wrote his songs and performed them. More often than not, Scorsese worked on the scripts of others, and others did the performing. He was never the total artist that Dylan could be. Also, there is something about music that is mysterious. Of all the arts, it's the toughest thing to pin down rationally. This may be why Scorsese was sympathetic toward Harrison. Unlike Lennon and McCartney who had musical genius, Harrison was like most people. He loved music without special knack for it. If not for his association with Lennon and McCartney, he would have been nothing. And yet, he stuck at it and managed to write a handful of classics. If any rock figure gives hope to the non-musician, it's Harrison whose example suggests even the non-natural talent can, by much effort and good fortune, crank out a few great songs in his lifetime. It's difficult to identify with genius as few people have it. But it's easy to identify with non-genius who is, for few moments in time, grazed by genius. Scorsese's Dylan docu is a tribute to the star of genius; his Harrison docu is a tribute to the shooting star that burns brightly if for a moment. Incredibly, Harrison supplied the best songs for both the White Album and Abbey Road.

    Scorsese's Catholicism seems to be operative here as well. He isn't just a fan but like a church scholar looking for 'new saints' to canonize. It's the dark saints of the church of sin, but it too has its hierarchies and histories. Not everyone is allowed. Just like Sarris' auteur rankings had an elaborate hierarchy, Rock music has its giants too. And Dylan is the messianic figure in the church of rock. Dylan may also be fascinating to Scorsese because both were serious artists involved in what is mostly a popular idiom. They took their work very seriously. And just like Scorsese's struggle with Catholicism and sin, Dylan had its bouts with religion, Jewish and Christian, and worldly temptations, as well as conflicts between conservatism and liberalism, between traditional folklore and urban cosmopolitanism. In the age of internet and pop idols, Scorsese is anxious to spread the canonical reverence for old film masters and now old rock masters.

    Christgau’s take on Hurricane was accurate. Before Dylan’s protest songs were about nobodies like Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll (although that had been a fairly well known incident). Carter was more a celebrity cause. Like you suggest, he’d become more a follower than a leader.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Hurricane is unintentionally hilarious

    All of Rubin's cards were marked in advance
    The trial was a pig-circus, he never had a chance
    The judge made Rubin's witnesses drunkards from the slums
    To the white folks who watched he was a revolutionary bum
    And to the black folks he was just a crazy ni**er
    No one doubted that he pulled the trigger
    And though they could not produce the gun
    The D.A. said he was the one who did the deed
    And the all-white jury agreed
     
    This was LOL when I heard it. Still is.
  205. Anonymous[382] • Disclaimer says:
    @HHSIII
    Christgau’s take on Hurricane was accurate. Before Dylan’s protest songs were about nobodies like Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll (although that had been a fairly well known incident). Carter was more a celebrity cause. Like you suggest, he’d become more a follower than a leader.

    Hurricane is unintentionally hilarious

    All of Rubin’s cards were marked in advance
    The trial was a pig-circus, he never had a chance
    The judge made Rubin’s witnesses drunkards from the slums
    To the white folks who watched he was a revolutionary bum
    And to the black folks he was just a crazy ni**er
    No one doubted that he pulled the trigger
    And though they could not produce the gun
    The D.A. said he was the one who did the deed
    And the all-white jury agreed

    This was LOL when I heard it. Still is.

  206. Anonymous[382] • Disclaimer says:

    Scorsese’s HUGO, though not a good movie, is very telling about the art of cinema. It is both big and awesome yet so fragile. Song-writing is a timeless and universal art. Even before machines and electricity, people composed verses and songs. Even if all of civilization were to fall apart, people would have music, and there would be song-writers and troubadours. Blacks had least in terms of civilization but plenty of music. Lyricists and poets can ply their trade anywhere. Homer orated the Iliad and Jews wrote Song of Solomon before there was anything close to modernity. Whether civilization rises or falls, words and music are forever, for any creative talent.

    The difference is if you were to put Dylan and Scorsese on an island full of savages, Dylan would still be somebody. He could sing to them and win their affection. But Scorsese would be nothing as cinema requires technology and modernity. Thus, the movie-maker’s time is locked and limited to a time and place. In HUGO, cinema goes up in flames with failure of technology(and lack of money). One can be penniless songwriter or poet but not a penniless moviemaker.

    Movies have conquered the world but cinema is totally dependent on technology. It is the Darth Vader of arts. It can’t live outside the helmet and armor. It envies the jedi knights of the earlier arts that were less dependent on technology.

    Same with religion. The Core of Christianity isn’t dependent on elaborate civilization. It grew from a handful of Jews, and anyone anywhere can partake of it. But the Catholic Church, like Hollywood, cannot exist without the support systems of a grand civilization and empire. Scorsese is a Catholic with neo-protestant inclinations. He reveres the Church and its canon and traditions but longs for the mean streets of truth as found outside the system.

    • Replies: @Hockamaw
    Excellent post.
  207. @Hockamaw
    There are two kinds of American, and only two: people who get Bob Dylan and people who don't.

    ” There are two kinds of American, and only two: People who get Bob Dylan and people who don’t”

    Okay myself, a professional Jazz performer (winds) with over fifty years on the road engaged in such, the only thing I “get” from Dylan is that he is basically full of shit and a quack musician, as is Springsteen, Lou Reed, L Cohen and the rest of his comrades.

    I guess you are trying to lend some kind of esoteric quality to his musical efforts which require a certain breed of leftist personality to “get”.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Ary vet and pro jazz musician.

  208. @Anon
    Elvis has rock star charisma but couldn't write anything.

    Dylan could compose songs and perform but couldn't be a stage sensation like Elvis or James Brown.

    Springsteen has Elvis-like persona and song-writing chops, an odd combination.

    Some composer-performers had charisma and presence but nothing like that of Elvis. Beatles had power as a group. Each on his own wasn't much as stage act. Jagger was a savvy performer but he needed the band to complete him. He didn't have the lone star quality of Elvis.

    Springsteen really had alpha qualities on stage. He could take command all on his own. Sure, there was the band and Clarence with sax, but he was the dominant force. He alone could rock the audience.

    Singer-songwriters were popular in the 70s, but they tended to be poetic types, or beta-personalities like James Taylor and Jackson Brown. Herbivores. Neil Young was rougher and manlier, but he was still more poet than performer.
    Springsteen really made for an unlikely rock figure. He came across blue-collar and crude like a 50s greaser. Red meat and hearty serving of potatoes. And yet, his literary talents were comparable to those of the Folk-Beat scene.
    He was like the Fonz crossed with Allen Ginsburg. This is why I could never really get into him. True, he was one of the great rockers from 75 to 85, but I never quite bought his act, incredible as it was. "Thunder Road" is a great song. Very working class and earthy in emotions. But it sounds more like the product of Iowa University Writing Program than the passion of the common dude. It's also very wordy even though Springsteens' breathless gushing delivery turns into a blur and makes it work. Still, I'm both impressed and bemused.

    You can hide 'neath your covers and study your pain
    Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain
    Waste your summer praying in vain
    For a savior to rise from these streets
    Well now, I ain't no hero, that's understood
    All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
    With a chance to make it good somehow
    Hey, what else can we do now?

    That's some good stuff, but what Common Dude goes on about "Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain/Waste your summer praying in vain/For a savior to rise from these streets"?

    We're riding out tonight to case the promised land

    Wonderful, but I never heard a common dude go on about 'casing the promised land'.

    There were ghosts in the eyes of all the boys you sent away
    They haunt this dusty beach road in the skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets
    They scream your name at night in the street
    Your graduation gown lies in rags at their feet
    And in the lonely cool before dawn

    Tremendous use of imagery but "skeleton frames of burned-out Chevrolets" sounds more literary than lived. It sounds like Sha Na Na doing trying to do "Visions of Johanna".

    The harmonicas play
    The skeleton keys and the rain
    And these visions of Johanna
    Are now all that remain

    Still, Springsteen was like the Michelangelo of Rock in that he embodied everything. While other Renaissance artists were better at Michelangelo in certain things, he was the all-around artist like the gymnast who wins the medal for the combined events. Or like the decathlete. Springsteen could write, he could rock, he could be poet, he could be wild man, he was everything under the sun. He could do ballads, he could do hard rock. He could do folk, he could do electric. He could wow the elites, he could turn on the masses.. that is until his muse dried up after Born in the USA, a bigger hit than Born to Run and the River(his masterpiece) because he toned down the literary aspects and rocked harder.

    ” He was everything under the sun”

    Yeah great except he has no fucking clue as what “singing” is, he is a screamer with no musical talent, a non-plus-ultra phoney, basta.

    AJM

  209. @Ron Mexico
    " maybe one of the all-time most kick ass baseball teams." The Roar of '84, 35-5 to start, 17 straight road victories, 111-59 overall record.

    The tragedy of that bunch is that they only won one World Series.

    Also pretty bitter about the WS Detroit choked away in ’06 and ’11.

  210. @Steve Sailer
    My friend Bill from Detroit wanted to go see the red hot Detroit Tigers play the White Sox on Saturday, April 7, 1984:

    Bill: "Jack Morris is pitching on Saturday!"
    Me: "Ehhh ... Let's go on Sunday."

    Saturday afternoon I turn on the game with 2 outs in the 9th and hear Vin Scully say:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kojLsWSm9A

    10 seconds later, the phone rings:

    Me: "Hi, Bill. Uh ... Sorry."

    Bill: "How'd you know it was me calling?"

    To make it worse, while it had been sunny and pleasant on Saturday when he wanted to go, it was about 40 degrees on Sunday when we did go to the game. At least he Tigers won again to mollify the poor guy.

    Morris was one of my favorites on that team.

    Glad one of the best gunslingers is finally in the HoF.

  211. @Steve Sailer
    My friend Bill from Detroit wanted to go see the red hot Detroit Tigers play the White Sox on Saturday, April 7, 1984:

    Bill: "Jack Morris is pitching on Saturday!"
    Me: "Ehhh ... Let's go on Sunday."

    Saturday afternoon I turn on the game with 2 outs in the 9th and hear Vin Scully say:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kojLsWSm9A

    10 seconds later, the phone rings:

    Me: "Hi, Bill. Uh ... Sorry."

    Bill: "How'd you know it was me calling?"

    To make it worse, while it had been sunny and pleasant on Saturday when he wanted to go, it was about 40 degrees on Sunday when we did go to the game. At least he Tigers won again to mollify the poor guy.

    Thanks for the story. My dad, who usually took me to one game a year when the Tigers were in Anaheim, went without me and saw the Tigers 17th straight road win. Then, because he worked in the Thoroughbred Horse Racing in SoCal (Del Mar, Holly Park and Santa Anita) and got tickets to great events, we were to go to game 6 of the WS in SD at the Murph. Kirk Gibson made sure game 6 didn’t happen.

  212. @jim jones
    Joni is one of the few women around who have talent equal to a man

    ” Joni is one of the few women around who have talent equal to a man”

    Hogwash. There are umpteen women active in the Jazz world who indeed just as talented as any male Jazz player, and myself I prefer to play witha female drummer, when possible.

    In the field of artistic endeavor women are not one iota inferior to men, period, and I say this as a staunch conservative.

    AJM “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US army vet, and pro jazz performer.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    "In the field of artistic endeavor women are not one iota inferior to men, period, and I say this as a staunch conservative."

    Too broad a statement. So to speak.

    As interpretive artists, women are definitely not inferior to men. As creative artists, they are, except in the field of literature. Most of the best composers and painters are men.

    I refer, of course, to high art. As pop artists, women are pretty much the equal of men, though even there, I think there are fewer females among creative artists.
  213. @bomag
    I never could see Randy Newman's appeal. Others have noticed:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARP6dXMlWQ8

    Leonard Cohen is good if one's into lugubrious.

    Rush is good.

    Leonard Cohen’s best song done right with Stevie Ray Vaughan on guitar.

  214. @Reg Cæsar

    A speed ball is something else.
     
    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0994/0730/products/Speedball_No._5_Pen_Set_large.jpg?v=1493431603


    Forgive him. He was messing with his frozen zone to remind him of the feeling of romance.

    Speedball (or powerball) is a mixture of cocaine (a stimulant) with heroin or morphine (an opioid), taken intravenously or by insufflation.

    Maybe that’s what BS meant.

  215. @dfordoom

    Not much.

    I won’t come up with a theory to excuse myself. That’s my fault.
     
    You should never apologise for not liking jazz. Life is too short to waste time listening to jazz.

    “You should never apologise for not liking jazz. Life is too short to waste time listening to jazz.”

    Can’t totally agree. Chet Baker was both a gifted vocalist and a gifted trumpeter. Time spent listening to his supreme artistry is not time wasted.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
    "Chet baker was both a gifted vocalist and a gifted trumpeter"

    True, and my humble self was a member of a band of which the drummer himself had toured Switzerland and Italy with Chet decades ago.

    AJM
  216. @Anonymous
    Dick Dale
    Zal Yanovsky
    Chris Stein
    Lenny Kaye

    and of course Slash (Saul Hudson) and Lenny Kravitz, both "bluish" (Black/Jewish)

    and on the distaff side
    Carly Simon (and sisters)
    Amy Winehouse
    Phoebe Snow
    Genya Ravan



    and where would we be without Hilly (Hillel) Kristol of CBGBs fame?

    Dick Dale was not a tribesman:

    Dick Dale was born Richard Anthony Monsour in Boston, Massachusetts, on May 4, 1937. He was of Lebanese descent from his father, James,[3] and of Polish-Belarusian descent from his mother, Sophia “Fern” (Danksewicz).

    Jorma Kaukonen — along with Jack Cassady the real musicians in Jefferson Airplane — is Jewish on his mother’s side.

    Mickey Hart, born Michael Steven Hartman, of the Grateful Dead and now Dead and Company, is a tribesman.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Lists of Jews in rock usually include Dale and he did a number of Jewish songs or adaptations of them. I had several conversations with him-he was the rock star I knew best, probably, except for Debbie Harry-but never asked him about it. I got the idea that as with most other subjects religion was a subject he had his own and unique angle on.
  217. @Anonymous
    Ironically, Hendrix said he decided to sing because Dylan couldn't but did anyways.

    The 'singing' in Hendrix's All Along the Watchtower is by the guitar.

    Hendrix was an OK singer, right. Not a virtuoso by any means but way better than Dylan. But his version improved the whole song, along with his band.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I never had problem with Dylan's voice until Empire Burlesque when it grew noticeably weaker.

    https://www.vulture.com/2015/02/why-does-bob-dylan-voice-sound-like-that.html
  218. @Anonymous
    As for Dylan, he could do a lot of things but singing is not one of them. That’s why Dylan covers sound better than Dylan’s original versions.

    This is why he wrote personal songs that had maximum meaning when sung by him.

    "Like a Rolling Stone" is a great whiny bitter song. It makes sense coming from Dylan but would sound stupid from Sinatra, Andy Williams, or Elvis.

    Elvis singing the song would think,"Why am I ranting like a whiny loser dork about some tart when I can get all the girls?"

    Being a most unlikely rock star was part of Dylan's appeal.
    Prior to Dylan, a lot of Jews stuck to composing and left the performances to others, to those who could sing better. Dylan overrode this by making the music personal.

    Perhaps, but I’d rather listen to The Band singing his songs than to Robert Zimmerman, an unlikely star indeed. Zero stage presence, mediocre guitar playing, whiny off-key voice, static, short and ugly, slitted eyes. IMHO, he should have stayed backstage as a composer or lyricist to other composers.
    Disclaimer: I’m not a fan of Bruce Springsteen either. Always struck me as a phony.

  219. @Authenticjazzman
    " Joni is one of the few women around who have talent equal to a man"

    Hogwash. There are umpteen women active in the Jazz world who indeed just as talented as any male Jazz player, and myself I prefer to play witha female drummer, when possible.

    In the field of artistic endeavor women are not one iota inferior to men, period, and I say this as a staunch conservative.

    AJM "Mensa" qualified since 1973, airborne trained US army vet, and pro jazz performer.

    “In the field of artistic endeavor women are not one iota inferior to men, period, and I say this as a staunch conservative.”

    Too broad a statement. So to speak.

    As interpretive artists, women are definitely not inferior to men. As creative artists, they are, except in the field of literature. Most of the best composers and painters are men.

    I refer, of course, to high art. As pop artists, women are pretty much the equal of men, though even there, I think there are fewer females among creative artists.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    As interpretive artists, women are definitely not inferior to men. As creative artists, they are, except in the field of literature. Most of the best composers and painters are men.
     
    Women are not at the bottom of musical or other creative endeavors, they are bunched up in the middle. But (until recently) no one wants to pay for the middle.

    In addition, women are rarely great composers because they are rarely bad composers. You have to take chances to innovate.
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " As creative artists, they are" : Inferior to men.

    You obviously never heard of Clara Schumann, as one example.

    Look friend, myself I have been active as a "Creative artist" a Jazz player, an improvisor of endless new melodies, for fifty-plus years, and I am more than certain that I am holding far more knowledge in the area of music creation than you are, basta.

    The creative aspect of human spirit holds no gender, and no race, Charlie Parkers melodic excursions were as deep and elaborate as those of JS Bach's.

    You are trying to "School" myself, which shuts me down completely, as you have along way to go before you reach my niveau as far the muses are concerned, so we shall just agree to disagree and end the debate.

    AJM
    , @Authenticjazzman
    Deleted due to duplication
  220. @Miro23

    OT, but that’s how a whole a whole generation was eased into “financial engineering”, and abandoned the hard sciences while what was left of unfashionable manufacturing was outsourced to Asia along with the supply networks, jobs and skills.

    You’re blaming Derman’s 2014 Berkeley commencement speech for the outsourcing of manufacturing to Asia?
     

     
    It doesn't belong on this thread, but Derman was making a speech about "financial engineering" (fashionable and exciting) not "industrial engineering" (dull and boring) in the already long running Neoliberal financialization tradition.

    In 1900 the British loved to hear speeches about their Imperial Destiny. It was the Zeitgeist.

    He was making a speech about financial engineering because that’s his field and he was speaking to future quants; we wasn’t putting down industrial engineering.

  221. @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    The entire original lineup of the J. Geils Band was Jewish except for the drummer.
    Peter Blankfeld aka Peter Wolf, Richard Solwitz aka Magic Dick.

  222. @Steve Sailer
    My friend Bill from Detroit wanted to go see the red hot Detroit Tigers play the White Sox on Saturday, April 7, 1984:

    Bill: "Jack Morris is pitching on Saturday!"
    Me: "Ehhh ... Let's go on Sunday."

    Saturday afternoon I turn on the game with 2 outs in the 9th and hear Vin Scully say:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kojLsWSm9A

    10 seconds later, the phone rings:

    Me: "Hi, Bill. Uh ... Sorry."

    Bill: "How'd you know it was me calling?"

    To make it worse, while it had been sunny and pleasant on Saturday when he wanted to go, it was about 40 degrees on Sunday when we did go to the game. At least he Tigers won again to mollify the poor guy.

    I had the best ticket I ever had (not counting as a guest at a skybox party) right behind home plate. I arrived in the second inning. And am glad I did.

    Kirby Puckett’s career had just ended in the first.

    That’s when you want the worst seat in the house. Better yet, the concession stand or the toilet.

    The other time being late was a blessing was at the Barcelona Olympics. In hellish heat and humidity, it took them two hours to get to the fourth inning.

  223. @Kylie
    "In the field of artistic endeavor women are not one iota inferior to men, period, and I say this as a staunch conservative."

    Too broad a statement. So to speak.

    As interpretive artists, women are definitely not inferior to men. As creative artists, they are, except in the field of literature. Most of the best composers and painters are men.

    I refer, of course, to high art. As pop artists, women are pretty much the equal of men, though even there, I think there are fewer females among creative artists.

    As interpretive artists, women are definitely not inferior to men. As creative artists, they are, except in the field of literature. Most of the best composers and painters are men.

    Women are not at the bottom of musical or other creative endeavors, they are bunched up in the middle. But (until recently) no one wants to pay for the middle.

    In addition, women are rarely great composers because they are rarely bad composers. You have to take chances to innovate.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    Good points. Thanks for clarifying.
  224. Anonymous [AKA "Paco Garcia"] says:

    As were the producers, lawyers, and accountants.

  225. @Reg Cæsar

    As interpretive artists, women are definitely not inferior to men. As creative artists, they are, except in the field of literature. Most of the best composers and painters are men.
     
    Women are not at the bottom of musical or other creative endeavors, they are bunched up in the middle. But (until recently) no one wants to pay for the middle.

    In addition, women are rarely great composers because they are rarely bad composers. You have to take chances to innovate.

    Good points. Thanks for clarifying.

  226. @Anonymous
    Scorsese's HUGO, though not a good movie, is very telling about the art of cinema. It is both big and awesome yet so fragile. Song-writing is a timeless and universal art. Even before machines and electricity, people composed verses and songs. Even if all of civilization were to fall apart, people would have music, and there would be song-writers and troubadours. Blacks had least in terms of civilization but plenty of music. Lyricists and poets can ply their trade anywhere. Homer orated the Iliad and Jews wrote Song of Solomon before there was anything close to modernity. Whether civilization rises or falls, words and music are forever, for any creative talent.

    The difference is if you were to put Dylan and Scorsese on an island full of savages, Dylan would still be somebody. He could sing to them and win their affection. But Scorsese would be nothing as cinema requires technology and modernity. Thus, the movie-maker's time is locked and limited to a time and place. In HUGO, cinema goes up in flames with failure of technology(and lack of money). One can be penniless songwriter or poet but not a penniless moviemaker.

    Movies have conquered the world but cinema is totally dependent on technology. It is the Darth Vader of arts. It can't live outside the helmet and armor. It envies the jedi knights of the earlier arts that were less dependent on technology.

    Same with religion. The Core of Christianity isn't dependent on elaborate civilization. It grew from a handful of Jews, and anyone anywhere can partake of it. But the Catholic Church, like Hollywood, cannot exist without the support systems of a grand civilization and empire. Scorsese is a Catholic with neo-protestant inclinations. He reveres the Church and its canon and traditions but longs for the mean streets of truth as found outside the system.

    Excellent post.

  227. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @BB753
    Hendrix was an OK singer, right. Not a virtuoso by any means but way better than Dylan. But his version improved the whole song, along with his band.

    I never had problem with Dylan’s voice until Empire Burlesque when it grew noticeably weaker.

    https://www.vulture.com/2015/02/why-does-bob-dylan-voice-sound-like-that.html

  228. HA says:
    @Blodg
    You are out of your depth on this topic I’m afraid

    There are chord changes but no key changes in TUIB

    First verse is A to G over A to D

    Then E-F#m-A-D then G-D-A

    The entire song is in A

    You don’t seem to understand what a key change is

    “First verse is A to G over A to D. You are out of your depth…”

    And you’re projecting. If you’ve got a G chord (or anything with a G natural for that matter), you’re no longer in the key of A major. That’s what that third sharp in the key signature of A stands for. It means that you play G-sharp instead of G-natural. If you’ve got an extended passage where D, G, and A are played, that extended passage is in the key of D, not A.

    • Replies: @cthulhu

    If you’ve got a G chord (or anything with a G natural for that matter), you’re no longer in the key of A major. That’s what that third sharp in the key signature of A stands for.

     

    In folk, blues, and rock, this would be called A Mixolydian. A is clearly the tonal center of the song. The chord progression A-G-D is then I-VIIb-IV, where the diatonic flat 7 is the Mixolydian distinctive chord. It’s a common chord progression in rock and blues; e.g., Traffic’s masterpiece Dear Mr. Fantasy is the same progression.

    Don’t expect perfect schoolhouse music theory in the blues, folk, and rock world and you won’t be disappointed :-)

  229. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ripple Earthdevil
    Dick Dale was not a tribesman:

    Dick Dale was born Richard Anthony Monsour in Boston, Massachusetts, on May 4, 1937. He was of Lebanese descent from his father, James,[3] and of Polish-Belarusian descent from his mother, Sophia "Fern" (Danksewicz).

    Jorma Kaukonen -- along with Jack Cassady the real musicians in Jefferson Airplane -- is Jewish on his mother's side.

    Mickey Hart, born Michael Steven Hartman, of the Grateful Dead and now Dead and Company, is a tribesman.

    Lists of Jews in rock usually include Dale and he did a number of Jewish songs or adaptations of them. I had several conversations with him-he was the rock star I knew best, probably, except for Debbie Harry-but never asked him about it. I got the idea that as with most other subjects religion was a subject he had his own and unique angle on.

  230. @Peter Akuleyev
    The Beastie Boys are the best Jewish rock stars. The most talented is probably Donald Fagen of Steely Dan fame. Adam Schlesinger, from Fountains of Wayne and dozens of film and tv soundtracks, is probably the most underrated.

    My favorite though is Geddy Lee of Rush.

    Then we have Lou reed, David Lee Roth, Gene Simmons, Paul Simon, Joey Ramone....

    Actually, it is hard to argue that Jews are "under-represented."

    Mick Jones.

    I love Joe and Paul, but the Clash without Mick were complete shite. ‘Cut the Crap’ indeed.

  231. @Steve Sailer
    Celebrities, such as playwright Sam Shepard, tend to be really good looking.

    Celebrities, such as playwright Sam Shepard, tend to be really good looking.

    But what did he see in Joni? She’s not exactly homely, but she certainly didn’t become famous because of her looks (she has a bony face.)

    I see good looking people everywhere. And scores of lesser Joni Mitchell level people every day. There are more ugly people in the world than pretty people, but there are pretty people in many different walks of life.

    A more plausible explanation for celebrity unions might be an aversion to gold diggers, maybe? Also, though I said I don’t think common interests would be a factor, there still may be “shared values,” i.e. a higher tolerance for infidelity or the self-absorbed degeneracy found in the entertainment class. I really have no idea. Whatever the rationale, the rate of success is exceptionally low.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Joni Mitchell was, for a few years, a genius.
  232. @J1234

    Celebrities, such as playwright Sam Shepard, tend to be really good looking.
     
    But what did he see in Joni? She's not exactly homely, but she certainly didn't become famous because of her looks (she has a bony face.)

    I see good looking people everywhere. And scores of lesser Joni Mitchell level people every day. There are more ugly people in the world than pretty people, but there are pretty people in many different walks of life.

    A more plausible explanation for celebrity unions might be an aversion to gold diggers, maybe? Also, though I said I don't think common interests would be a factor, there still may be "shared values," i.e. a higher tolerance for infidelity or the self-absorbed degeneracy found in the entertainment class. I really have no idea. Whatever the rationale, the rate of success is exceptionally low.

    Joni Mitchell was, for a few years, a genius.

    • Replies: @J1234
    That she was.
    , @BB753
    Men aren't swayed by genius or fame like women are.
    , @Anonymous
    Yes. Part of Mitchell's genius is that being physically limited by a polio attack, she made extensive use of open and modal tunings before that became a thing, outside of what people like John Fahey were doing. This was before Keith Richards got hevily into open tunings and so she was really a pioneer.
  233. @Anonymous

    Prime example:

    I got a ’69 Chevy with a 396 Fuelie heads and a Hurst on the floor

    If I was talking to car people – even Ford or Mopar people – and I told them I had fuelie heads on a BB Chevy, they wouldn’t even bother laughing at me, so great would be their disdain.

    World famous Bruce Springsteen puts it in a song and it’s largely overlooked. It isn’t that he made a technical mistake in a song, it’s that he’s a cultural fake of the highest order. He’s actually like a lot of other musicians who put on cultural costumes. White guys who play the blues are absolutely the worst in this regard. The more traditional the blues they play, the worse they are. I sort of abandoned bluegrass music for the same reaso
     
    "Fuelie heads" were a small block thing, used on the Rochester mechanical FI engines offered in Corvettes from '57 to '63, but by the early seventies no actual hot rod builder wanted them, except for rules reasons in certain racing classes. Bruce didn't even go to the trouble of vetting his lyrics with actual hot rodders.

    Still: it brings up one thing GM and Fender had in common: stuff they made interchanged.
    Ford and Mopar were like Gibson and Gretsch. Their stuff does not.

    SB and BB engines do not interchange heads or cranks, but the bolt patterns are the same on the transmission end. With Ford, it's a clusterfuck.

    There was a guy on youtube who got between 600 and 700 hp out of a Y-block, Ford’s earliest overhead valve v8. My understanding is that he had to more or less fit sb chevy heads/manifolds to the engine (or remake the existing heads essentially into sbc’s) to make that happen. Kind of cheating, but the machinist skills needed to do that would be amazing. The Y-block was the antithesis of the sbc, but they’re still fun in stock original vehicles. I have three old FoMoCo cars, yet I still don’t understand the scope or purpose of all their varied engine designs during that era.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Ford engine design is a baffling and bizarre thing. Basically nothing interchanges with anything else unless often bizarre mods are made. There were an enormous number of variations and often they made many different engines of similar displacement at the same time.

    Even into the modular era there might be two different versions of the same displacement engine with little or no internal interchangeability.

    Mopar was somewhat better, with G/RG, LA, B, RB families and at least a semi rational map of what fits what. Mopars rusted bad and the interiors were the cheesiest, but they had torsion bar front ends and mostly solid drivelines, with the turds being well defined.

    But overall Chevy was the best from a hot rod standpoint. Everyone knew them, parts were cheaper, and junkyards packed full of cores and aftermarket everything. From the late fifties to the early eighties Chevy was the default gearhead's choice. Ford had some attractive cars but never got their hands around what made the backyard wrench turner put his money down.
  234. @Steve Sailer
    Joni Mitchell was, for a few years, a genius.

    That she was.

  235. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @J1234
    There was a guy on youtube who got between 600 and 700 hp out of a Y-block, Ford's earliest overhead valve v8. My understanding is that he had to more or less fit sb chevy heads/manifolds to the engine (or remake the existing heads essentially into sbc's) to make that happen. Kind of cheating, but the machinist skills needed to do that would be amazing. The Y-block was the antithesis of the sbc, but they're still fun in stock original vehicles. I have three old FoMoCo cars, yet I still don't understand the scope or purpose of all their varied engine designs during that era.

    Ford engine design is a baffling and bizarre thing. Basically nothing interchanges with anything else unless often bizarre mods are made. There were an enormous number of variations and often they made many different engines of similar displacement at the same time.

    Even into the modular era there might be two different versions of the same displacement engine with little or no internal interchangeability.

    Mopar was somewhat better, with G/RG, LA, B, RB families and at least a semi rational map of what fits what. Mopars rusted bad and the interiors were the cheesiest, but they had torsion bar front ends and mostly solid drivelines, with the turds being well defined.

    But overall Chevy was the best from a hot rod standpoint. Everyone knew them, parts were cheaper, and junkyards packed full of cores and aftermarket everything. From the late fifties to the early eighties Chevy was the default gearhead’s choice. Ford had some attractive cars but never got their hands around what made the backyard wrench turner put his money down.

  236. @Steve Sailer
    Joni Mitchell was, for a few years, a genius.

    Men aren’t swayed by genius or fame like women are.

    • Replies: @J1234

    Men aren’t swayed by genius or fame like women are.
     
    That's very true, for the most part.
  237. @Kylie
    "In the field of artistic endeavor women are not one iota inferior to men, period, and I say this as a staunch conservative."

    Too broad a statement. So to speak.

    As interpretive artists, women are definitely not inferior to men. As creative artists, they are, except in the field of literature. Most of the best composers and painters are men.

    I refer, of course, to high art. As pop artists, women are pretty much the equal of men, though even there, I think there are fewer females among creative artists.

    ” As creative artists, they are” : Inferior to men.

    You obviously never heard of Clara Schumann, as one example.

    Look friend, myself I have been active as a “Creative artist” a Jazz player, an improvisor of endless new melodies, for fifty-plus years, and I am more than certain that I am holding far more knowledge in the area of music creation than you are, basta.

    The creative aspect of human spirit holds no gender, and no race, Charlie Parkers melodic excursions were as deep and elaborate as those of JS Bach’s.

    You are trying to “School” myself, which shuts me down completely, as you have along way to go before you reach my niveau as far the muses are concerned, so we shall just agree to disagree and end the debate.

    AJM

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    We all know that jazz is the most technical and skill-requiring kind of music, but some people just like I-IV-V, 4/4 songs that are simple, better. No harm no foul.
  238. @Kylie
    "You should never apologise for not liking jazz. Life is too short to waste time listening to jazz."

    Can't totally agree. Chet Baker was both a gifted vocalist and a gifted trumpeter. Time spent listening to his supreme artistry is not time wasted.

    “Chet baker was both a gifted vocalist and a gifted trumpeter”

    True, and my humble self was a member of a band of which the drummer himself had toured Switzerland and Italy with Chet decades ago.

    AJM

  239. @Kylie
    "In the field of artistic endeavor women are not one iota inferior to men, period, and I say this as a staunch conservative."

    Too broad a statement. So to speak.

    As interpretive artists, women are definitely not inferior to men. As creative artists, they are, except in the field of literature. Most of the best composers and painters are men.

    I refer, of course, to high art. As pop artists, women are pretty much the equal of men, though even there, I think there are fewer females among creative artists.

    Deleted due to duplication

  240. @Sparkon

    Dylan had the strange habit of totally reworking songs for live performance
     
    That's probably because Dylan couldn't sing his hits the way the studio produced his hits.

    I think a strong contender for Dylan's best is "Chimes of Freedom," although not the way he performed it.


    Far between sundown's finish an' midnight's broken toll
    We ducked inside the doorway, thunder crashing
    As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds
    Seeming to be the chimes of freedom flashing...

    Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight
    Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight
    An' for each an' ev'ry underdog soldier in the night
    An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing
     

    But the best version is by the Byrds from their 1965 album Mr. Tambourine Man

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaqC7QSXjDU

    Was Dylan a plagiarist?


    Dave Van Ronk gave his account of the song's origins: "Bob Dylan heard me fooling around with one of my grandmother's favorites, 'The Chimes of Trinity,' a sentimental ballad about Trinity Church, that went something like Tolling for the outcast, tolling for the gay/Tolling for the [something something], long since passed away/As we whiled away the hours, down on old Broadway/And we listened to the chimes of Trinity. He made me sing it for him a few times until he had the gist of it, then reworked it into 'Chimes of Freedom.' Her version was better."

    -- Wikipedia
     

    I’ve always had the impression that Dylan and Roger McGuinn didn’t really like each other. I can’t know this for sure (or care that much), but they’ve both made vaguely condescending public remarks about each other.

    I’m with you on this song, and generally feel that the Byrds’ renditions of Dylan songs were a marked improvement over the originals. Dylan songs weren’t something I was in the orbit of, however, so I’m no expert or even really a fan.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Dylan's songs could be improved if they weren't personal.

    Mr. Tambourine Man is a celebration and My Back Pages is an anthem.

    But Dylan owns songs like Just Like a Woman and One of Us Must Know. They are too closely wedded to his own feelings.
    , @Sparkon
    I saw Dylan live in '94 when he was in the middle of seemingly non-stop touring. His voice was shot: gravely, hissy, and flat. It sounded to me like he had laryngitis.

    I had an ongoing interest in Dylan's music. You couldn't live through the mid '60s without hearing his work, either his own renditions like "The Times are a' Changing" or "Blowin' in the Wind" by PP&M...

    These three slightly lesser known gems from Dylan are my recommendations for the day, with some really great playing behind him:

    Desolation Row


    They're selling postcards of the hanging, they're painting the passports brown
    The beauty parlor is filled with sailors, the circus is in town
    Here comes the blind commissioner, they've got him in a trance
    One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker, the other is in his pants
    And the riot squad they're restless, they need somewhere to go
    As Lady and I look out tonight, from Desolation Row
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUvcWXTIjcU

    ---

    Positively 4th Street


    You've got a lotta nerve to say you are my friend
    When I was down you just stood there grinnin'
    You've got a lotta nerve to say you got a helping hand to lend
    You just want to be on the side that's winnin'
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aehwEu8SBSo

    ---

    Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again

    Now the bricks lay on Grand Street
    Where the neon madmen climb
    They all fall there so perfectly
    It all seems so well timed
    An' here I sit so patiently
    Waiting to find out what price
    You have to pay to get out of
    Going through all these things twice

    Oh, Mama, is this really the end
    To be stuck here inside of Mobile
    With the Memphis blues again

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kh6K_-a0c4

    It's all sounding very good here this morning, especially since Trump didn't bomb Iran...

  241. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Authenticjazzman
    " As creative artists, they are" : Inferior to men.

    You obviously never heard of Clara Schumann, as one example.

    Look friend, myself I have been active as a "Creative artist" a Jazz player, an improvisor of endless new melodies, for fifty-plus years, and I am more than certain that I am holding far more knowledge in the area of music creation than you are, basta.

    The creative aspect of human spirit holds no gender, and no race, Charlie Parkers melodic excursions were as deep and elaborate as those of JS Bach's.

    You are trying to "School" myself, which shuts me down completely, as you have along way to go before you reach my niveau as far the muses are concerned, so we shall just agree to disagree and end the debate.

    AJM

    We all know that jazz is the most technical and skill-requiring kind of music, but some people just like I-IV-V, 4/4 songs that are simple, better. No harm no foul.

  242. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @HHSIII
    Dylan’s singing back then fit some of his songs. From a Buick 6.

    Or from your favorite Dylan album, Meet Me in the Morning.

    Buick made only eights until the V6 in the mid 60s. “Buick Eight” makes sense. Six no.

  243. @HA
    "First verse is A to G over A to D. You are out of your depth..."

    And you're projecting. If you've got a G chord (or anything with a G natural for that matter), you're no longer in the key of A major. That's what that third sharp in the key signature of A stands for. It means that you play G-sharp instead of G-natural. If you've got an extended passage where D, G, and A are played, that extended passage is in the key of D, not A.

    If you’ve got a G chord (or anything with a G natural for that matter), you’re no longer in the key of A major. That’s what that third sharp in the key signature of A stands for.

    In folk, blues, and rock, this would be called A Mixolydian. A is clearly the tonal center of the song. The chord progression A-G-D is then I-VIIb-IV, where the diatonic flat 7 is the Mixolydian distinctive chord. It’s a common chord progression in rock and blues; e.g., Traffic’s masterpiece Dear Mr. Fantasy is the same progression.

    Don’t expect perfect schoolhouse music theory in the blues, folk, and rock world and you won’t be disappointed 🙂

    • Replies: @HA
    "In folk, blues, and rock, this would be called A Mixolydian."

    Which I already noted in my first comment, but didn't really want to get into with someone who didn't even seem to know what A-major was. Moreover, any claim on what is or isn't the "tonal center" in this song would carry more weight if the passages in question didn't always resolve to a D-major chord, which they always do here.

    In any case, though containing the same notes, neither A-mixolydian nor D-major are the same as A-major, and the conspicuous lack of any G-sharps in those passages, coupled with the conspicous lack of G-naturals in the remaining plain-vanilla-A-major-scale parts (apart from the very last line which shifts back) make it clear that these are different scales/modes/etc. In fact, the sharp juxtaposition of the G-major chord in the last line (coming right after the E-major chord) is something that can be perceived as a modulation even to those who don't know much about key signatures or modes, and you could say it adds an extra oomph to that title line, which is presumably what the original poster meant by "surprising key changes".

    , @HA
    "In folk, BLUES, and rock,..."

    And while I'm at it, mixolydian is not really a blues thing, either -- these days, it seems to be more a European folk mode that carried over into rock, though now I probably am indeed getting out of my depth. I bet I could list a dozen popular mixolydian songs in addition to the ones listed here, but none of them are blues, or even by black artists. (The one song on that page by a black artist, despite its title being "All Blues" is noted in its own page as being a jazz composition, and at best is the exception that proves the rule).

    Yeah, it's sometimes true that artists often labelled as being blues-rock will go mixolydian (e.g. the "blues-rock" guitarist Eric Clapton in the instrumental section of "Badge"), but mixolydian songs are almost always either folk, or else they're by pasty-faced rockers who frequently try to sound bluesy (e.g., "Sweet Home Alabama", "Take the Money and Run", "Werewolves of London"), as opposed to anything that is actually blues.

  244. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Joni Mitchell was, for a few years, a genius.

    Yes. Part of Mitchell’s genius is that being physically limited by a polio attack, she made extensive use of open and modal tunings before that became a thing, outside of what people like John Fahey were doing. This was before Keith Richards got hevily into open tunings and so she was really a pioneer.

    • Replies: @J1234

    she made extensive use of open and modal tunings before that became a thing, outside of what people like John Fahey were doing. This was before Keith Richards got hevily into open tunings and so she was really a pioneer.
     
    Don't forget Nick Drake.
  245. Anonymous[113] • Disclaimer says:
    @J1234
    I've always had the impression that Dylan and Roger McGuinn didn't really like each other. I can't know this for sure (or care that much), but they've both made vaguely condescending public remarks about each other.

    I'm with you on this song, and generally feel that the Byrds' renditions of Dylan songs were a marked improvement over the originals. Dylan songs weren't something I was in the orbit of, however, so I'm no expert or even really a fan.

    Dylan’s songs could be improved if they weren’t personal.

    Mr. Tambourine Man is a celebration and My Back Pages is an anthem.

    But Dylan owns songs like Just Like a Woman and One of Us Must Know. They are too closely wedded to his own feelings.

  246. @J1234
    I've always had the impression that Dylan and Roger McGuinn didn't really like each other. I can't know this for sure (or care that much), but they've both made vaguely condescending public remarks about each other.

    I'm with you on this song, and generally feel that the Byrds' renditions of Dylan songs were a marked improvement over the originals. Dylan songs weren't something I was in the orbit of, however, so I'm no expert or even really a fan.

    I saw Dylan live in ’94 when he was in the middle of seemingly non-stop touring. His voice was shot: gravely, hissy, and flat. It sounded to me like he had laryngitis.

    I had an ongoing interest in Dylan’s music. You couldn’t live through the mid ’60s without hearing his work, either his own renditions like “The Times are a’ Changing” or “Blowin’ in the Wind” by PP&M…

    These three slightly lesser known gems from Dylan are my recommendations for the day, with some really great playing behind him:

    Desolation Row

    They’re selling postcards of the hanging, they’re painting the passports brown
    The beauty parlor is filled with sailors, the circus is in town
    Here comes the blind commissioner, they’ve got him in a trance
    One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker, the other is in his pants
    And the riot squad they’re restless, they need somewhere to go
    As Lady and I look out tonight, from Desolation Row

    Positively 4th Street

    You’ve got a lotta nerve to say you are my friend
    When I was down you just stood there grinnin’
    You’ve got a lotta nerve to say you got a helping hand to lend
    You just want to be on the side that’s winnin’

    Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again

    Now the bricks lay on Grand Street
    Where the neon madmen climb
    They all fall there so perfectly
    It all seems so well timed
    An’ here I sit so patiently
    Waiting to find out what price
    You have to pay to get out of
    Going through all these things twice

    Oh, Mama, is this really the end
    To be stuck here inside of Mobile
    With the Memphis blues again

    It’s all sounding very good here this morning, especially since Trump didn’t bomb Iran…

    • Replies: @J1234

    I saw Dylan live in ’94 when he was in the middle of seemingly non-stop touring. His voice was shot: gravely, hissy, and flat. It sounded to me like he had laryngitis.
     
    I'm pretty sure that I saw him on that tour as well - the only time I'd even seen him. Nothing made me want to see him again. His voice was bad (more than usual...permanently altered by some affliction, I think) the sound was way too loud for the venue (and the style of music) and he had some amateurish accompanying musicians.
  247. HA says:
    @cthulhu

    If you’ve got a G chord (or anything with a G natural for that matter), you’re no longer in the key of A major. That’s what that third sharp in the key signature of A stands for.

     

    In folk, blues, and rock, this would be called A Mixolydian. A is clearly the tonal center of the song. The chord progression A-G-D is then I-VIIb-IV, where the diatonic flat 7 is the Mixolydian distinctive chord. It’s a common chord progression in rock and blues; e.g., Traffic’s masterpiece Dear Mr. Fantasy is the same progression.

    Don’t expect perfect schoolhouse music theory in the blues, folk, and rock world and you won’t be disappointed :-)

    “In folk, blues, and rock, this would be called A Mixolydian.”

    Which I already noted in my first comment, but didn’t really want to get into with someone who didn’t even seem to know what A-major was. Moreover, any claim on what is or isn’t the “tonal center” in this song would carry more weight if the passages in question didn’t always resolve to a D-major chord, which they always do here.

    In any case, though containing the same notes, neither A-mixolydian nor D-major are the same as A-major, and the conspicuous lack of any G-sharps in those passages, coupled with the conspicous lack of G-naturals in the remaining plain-vanilla-A-major-scale parts (apart from the very last line which shifts back) make it clear that these are different scales/modes/etc. In fact, the sharp juxtaposition of the G-major chord in the last line (coming right after the E-major chord) is something that can be perceived as a modulation even to those who don’t know much about key signatures or modes, and you could say it adds an extra oomph to that title line, which is presumably what the original poster meant by “surprising key changes”.

  248. HA says:
    @cthulhu

    If you’ve got a G chord (or anything with a G natural for that matter), you’re no longer in the key of A major. That’s what that third sharp in the key signature of A stands for.

     

    In folk, blues, and rock, this would be called A Mixolydian. A is clearly the tonal center of the song. The chord progression A-G-D is then I-VIIb-IV, where the diatonic flat 7 is the Mixolydian distinctive chord. It’s a common chord progression in rock and blues; e.g., Traffic’s masterpiece Dear Mr. Fantasy is the same progression.

    Don’t expect perfect schoolhouse music theory in the blues, folk, and rock world and you won’t be disappointed :-)

    “In folk, BLUES, and rock,…”

    And while I’m at it, mixolydian is not really a blues thing, either — these days, it seems to be more a European folk mode that carried over into rock, though now I probably am indeed getting out of my depth. I bet I could list a dozen popular mixolydian songs in addition to the ones listed here, but none of them are blues, or even by black artists. (The one song on that page by a black artist, despite its title being “All Blues” is noted in its own page as being a jazz composition, and at best is the exception that proves the rule).

    Yeah, it’s sometimes true that artists often labelled as being blues-rock will go mixolydian (e.g. the “blues-rock” guitarist Eric Clapton in the instrumental section of “Badge”), but mixolydian songs are almost always either folk, or else they’re by pasty-faced rockers who frequently try to sound bluesy (e.g., “Sweet Home Alabama”, “Take the Money and Run”, “Werewolves of London”), as opposed to anything that is actually blues.

  249. @Anonymous
    Yes. Part of Mitchell's genius is that being physically limited by a polio attack, she made extensive use of open and modal tunings before that became a thing, outside of what people like John Fahey were doing. This was before Keith Richards got hevily into open tunings and so she was really a pioneer.

    she made extensive use of open and modal tunings before that became a thing, outside of what people like John Fahey were doing. This was before Keith Richards got hevily into open tunings and so she was really a pioneer.

    Don’t forget Nick Drake.

  250. @Dieter Kief
    Bruce Springsteen woke up as a star right in the middle of the crossroad (cf. Robert Johnson and Greil Marcus). That worked for a while. But then something strange happened, and his position in the middle of the crossroad running through the races and through big money and small banks - - marked the longer the more between egalitarianism (=idealism) and factual (sorry to mention such dirty letters here) racial differences. These strange things, which surfaced slowly but steadily along with Bruce Springsteen's ascend to megastardom were, what - the longer they lasted, the more so: Ripped his value system apart. - His coat of ideals became shiny and in the end was"Torn and Frayed" (Jagger/Richards).

    Dylan escaped these loopholes in the deteriorating crossroads I sketched above by finding religion. Springsteen tried hard not to get lost in the pitfalls of Western reality. But his vulnerability when he was out on the crossroads when the circumstances were more (incredibly more) peaceful and friendly (= USA 1970 ff.) turned out to be something completely different from the vulnerability he encountered at the time, The Times were a-changing - a-changing in a different way, than the optimistic mood of the Sixties had led people to expect. Times were becoming harder now, not least economically - starting in the late seventies, early eighties.
    And from then on, Bruce Springsteen got into big trouble: All of a sudden, he found himself in an "Exile on Main Street" (The Stones), which he could not handle at all. - Being exiled on main street USA, he got under the bus - and just because he is no sunny boy - since as such, he could have tried to simply laugh his way out of his (severe) conundrums.

    So - his value system did not fit reality any longer, and he had no cure for that. He started to dwindle down artistically (Tunnel of Love...) and - - - -to suffer from depression. - His status as a big star started to decline too, I agree with you on that.

    He did have a great time though. To appreciate this, one has to understand his limitations - and say goodbye to one's own blue-eyed glorious days of old(...) and days of gold (Dylan - Self-Portrait (!)), since as youth goes by, we all necessarily lose our youthful Purity (Jonathan Franzen) and have to confront (excuse me for using just one more dirty word) reality (see Steve Sailer's motto and Jackson Browne, in - - - - Cocaine).

    When that has happened, we have to come to grips with a life - - - - "After the Gold-Rush". There's nothing wrong with that. But it does mean to acknowledge, that life ain't a dream no more, its the real thing (Dylan/Senor - Dreams of Yankee Power on Slow Train Coming) - and as such, as the real thing, life is: Less sparkling and therefore more reliable. That's the existential deal of becoming a grown-up - - - if one has gotten out of this dream-stuff with one's senses intact, that is, after having traded in the ideals of one's youth (Schiller) for - - - sanity and reason. Freidrich Schiller adds (in Don Carlos), that it is important nonetheless, to hold the dreams of one's youth in dear respect - but as something, that has necessarily to be transformed, I'd add here, shortening a longer and more profound argument, but not disgracing it.
    All in all, that might sound harsher than it is though. - Hasn't it been quite boring and confusing too, at times, when we were young? And isn't life still sparkling, here and there, in our older eyes, too?

    Life is even more sparkling for me now as I age. It’s like the golden hour before sunset. I just wish I were leaving a better place for my kids.

    • Agree: Diversity is Great!
  251. @Sparkon

    Dylan had the strange habit of totally reworking songs for live performance
     
    That's probably because Dylan couldn't sing his hits the way the studio produced his hits.

    I think a strong contender for Dylan's best is "Chimes of Freedom," although not the way he performed it.


    Far between sundown's finish an' midnight's broken toll
    We ducked inside the doorway, thunder crashing
    As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds
    Seeming to be the chimes of freedom flashing...

    Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight
    Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight
    An' for each an' ev'ry underdog soldier in the night
    An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing
     

    But the best version is by the Byrds from their 1965 album Mr. Tambourine Man

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaqC7QSXjDU

    Was Dylan a plagiarist?


    Dave Van Ronk gave his account of the song's origins: "Bob Dylan heard me fooling around with one of my grandmother's favorites, 'The Chimes of Trinity,' a sentimental ballad about Trinity Church, that went something like Tolling for the outcast, tolling for the gay/Tolling for the [something something], long since passed away/As we whiled away the hours, down on old Broadway/And we listened to the chimes of Trinity. He made me sing it for him a few times until he had the gist of it, then reworked it into 'Chimes of Freedom.' Her version was better."

    -- Wikipedia
     

    Richie Havens would say Dylan “borrowed” All Along the Watchtower from him. He didn’t seem bitter, just wanted people to know.

  252. @SunBakedSuburb
    "... the decline of the Boomers ..."

    Tom Petty. Pink Floyd. Van Halen. The Police. Rush. Led Zeppelin. The Partridge Family. And many more. The 70s and 80s golden era of Boomer rock. Rock hit the skids in the late 1990s as the African beats became triumphant.

    Rock is dead. Anyone who was into these bands (besides the Partridge Family????) eventually got into metal or became frozen in time and stopped listening to new music.

  253. @The Wild Geese Howard
    Sure, but in this clip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vQpW9XRiyM

    ...the prominent neon 'Genesee' sign representing the upstate NY brewery is a pitch perfect call out to working class upstate NY.

    The Detroit Tigers cap on his video son was also a pitch perfect call out to one of the '80s, maybe one of the all-time most kick ass baseball teams.

    Never doubt the quantity of Genny Cream Ale Kodakers and Xeroids could pound back in the day.

  254. Anonymous[195] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sparkon

    Dylan had the strange habit of totally reworking songs for live performance
     
    That's probably because Dylan couldn't sing his hits the way the studio produced his hits.

    I think a strong contender for Dylan's best is "Chimes of Freedom," although not the way he performed it.


    Far between sundown's finish an' midnight's broken toll
    We ducked inside the doorway, thunder crashing
    As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds
    Seeming to be the chimes of freedom flashing...

    Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight
    Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight
    An' for each an' ev'ry underdog soldier in the night
    An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing
     

    But the best version is by the Byrds from their 1965 album Mr. Tambourine Man

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaqC7QSXjDU

    Was Dylan a plagiarist?


    Dave Van Ronk gave his account of the song's origins: "Bob Dylan heard me fooling around with one of my grandmother's favorites, 'The Chimes of Trinity,' a sentimental ballad about Trinity Church, that went something like Tolling for the outcast, tolling for the gay/Tolling for the [something something], long since passed away/As we whiled away the hours, down on old Broadway/And we listened to the chimes of Trinity. He made me sing it for him a few times until he had the gist of it, then reworked it into 'Chimes of Freedom.' Her version was better."

    -- Wikipedia
     

    Was Dylan a plagiarist?

    At times, he was a plagiARTIST.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Yup.
  255. @Anonymous

    Was Dylan a plagiarist?
     
    At times, he was a plagiARTIST.

    Yup.

  256. @BB753
    Men aren't swayed by genius or fame like women are.

    Men aren’t swayed by genius or fame like women are.

    That’s very true, for the most part.

  257. @Sparkon
    I saw Dylan live in '94 when he was in the middle of seemingly non-stop touring. His voice was shot: gravely, hissy, and flat. It sounded to me like he had laryngitis.

    I had an ongoing interest in Dylan's music. You couldn't live through the mid '60s without hearing his work, either his own renditions like "The Times are a' Changing" or "Blowin' in the Wind" by PP&M...

    These three slightly lesser known gems from Dylan are my recommendations for the day, with some really great playing behind him:

    Desolation Row


    They're selling postcards of the hanging, they're painting the passports brown
    The beauty parlor is filled with sailors, the circus is in town
    Here comes the blind commissioner, they've got him in a trance
    One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker, the other is in his pants
    And the riot squad they're restless, they need somewhere to go
    As Lady and I look out tonight, from Desolation Row
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUvcWXTIjcU

    ---

    Positively 4th Street


    You've got a lotta nerve to say you are my friend
    When I was down you just stood there grinnin'
    You've got a lotta nerve to say you got a helping hand to lend
    You just want to be on the side that's winnin'
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aehwEu8SBSo

    ---

    Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again

    Now the bricks lay on Grand Street
    Where the neon madmen climb
    They all fall there so perfectly
    It all seems so well timed
    An' here I sit so patiently
    Waiting to find out what price
    You have to pay to get out of
    Going through all these things twice

    Oh, Mama, is this really the end
    To be stuck here inside of Mobile
    With the Memphis blues again

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kh6K_-a0c4

    It's all sounding very good here this morning, especially since Trump didn't bomb Iran...

    I saw Dylan live in ’94 when he was in the middle of seemingly non-stop touring. His voice was shot: gravely, hissy, and flat. It sounded to me like he had laryngitis.

    I’m pretty sure that I saw him on that tour as well – the only time I’d even seen him. Nothing made me want to see him again. His voice was bad (more than usual…permanently altered by some affliction, I think) the sound was way too loud for the venue (and the style of music) and he had some amateurish accompanying musicians.

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