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From the New York Times science section:

The DNA of Roma People Has Long Been Misused, Scientists Reveal

An op-ed in Nature calls for higher ethical standards in the usage and analysis of genetic information from the Romani, a marginalized group in Europe.

By Sabrina Imbler
Nov. 17, 2021

… For five years, a team of researchers in Germany and the United Kingdom pored over more than 450 papers that used the DNA of Roma people to understand how geneticists and other scholars obtained, interpreted and shared that genetic information. Their analysis, published Wednesday in an op-ed in the journal Nature, revealed many instances of clear misuse or questionable ethics.

In 1981, when scientists in Hungary sampled the blood of Roma people incarcerated in Hungarian prisons, they classified prisoners as Romani based solely on their appearance, which the authors of the new paper argue is unscientific.

I’m shocked, shocked that scientists in Communist Hungary in 1981 used phenotype rather than genotype to select Roma criminals for a study. (I notice that a lot of people these days take it as an article of faith that statistical disparities must be due to poor selection techniques.)

But now it’s bad when they do use DNA:

In 1993, another group sampling Romani DNA concluded that there were three distinct ethnic groups in the country, drawing a line between “the genuine Hungarian ethnical groups” and “Jews” and “Gypsies” — a research premise the authors of the new paper argue was racist. In the 2000s, papers on the genetics of Roma people still referred to the group with the outdated term “Gypsy,” which is considered a slur,

Until enough years go by that sufficient people recognize “Romani” as those people who scammed your mom out of \$1300 (it already appears that “Roma” is perhaps on the Naughty List), at which point using “Romani” will be racist and the sensitive will instead be referring to them as “People of Gypsitude.”

or with pejorative terms such as “inbred” or “consanguineous.”

Consanguineous means practicing cousin marriage, which Roma do to a fairly high extent, although not as much as in Pakistan (which is likely more or less where they come from). According to one study, cousin marriage has become more common among Romani. They already have plenty of trouble with dyslexia, so adding genetic defects through inbreeding is not wise.

“It’s just horrifying,” said Ethel Brooks, a Romani scholar and chair of the department of women’s, gender and sexuality studies at Rutgers University in New Jersey. “But of course, it’s all things we’ve known and suspected.”

The analysis spanned papers published between 1921 and 2021, most of which were published in the last 30 years. The earlier papers included “so many shocking surprises,” said Veronika Lipphardt, a science historian at the University of Freiburg, Germany, such as the samples taken from incarcerated Roma people and many instances of racist language.

“Many didn’t believe us,” Dr. Lipphardt said, “because it was simply so hard to believe” that such practices were “ongoing.”

… In 2015, the Slovakian government defended its practice of segregating Roma children in schools, falsely citing “mild mental disabilities” tied to “high levels of inbreeding” in Romani communities.

And that’s false because?

… Mihai Surdu, a visiting sociologist at the University of Freiburg and an author on the paper, conceptualized the project when he was writing a book on the Roma people. While searching for publications with the words “Roma” or “Gypsies” in the titles, Dr. Surdu found what seemed like an outsized number of studies on Roma DNA — nearly 20 papers.

When Dr. Surdu wrote to Dr. Lipphardt in 2012 about this phenomenon, he was unsure if it was a fluke. But over the course of their study, the researchers uncovered more than 450 genetic papers with Roma subjects.

Uh-oh, scientific study. That’s bad.

… One 2015 study pointing to Indian origins of the Roma people uploaded their amassed DNA data set to two public databases that law enforcement agencies across the world use for genetic references to solve crimes, a purpose to which the original participants likely did not consent.

Similarly, the Golden State Killer didn’t consent to his distant cousins uploading their genome to public databases.

Even though much of this DNA was collected decades ago, its presence in public databases poses a present danger to modern communities. The 2015 study uploaded Roma DNA to the Y-STR Haplotype Reference Database, or YHRD, a searchable worldwide collection of anonymous Y-chromosome profiles that has become a crucial and contested tool helping police solve crimes. In YHRD, the national database for Bulgaria lists 52.7 percent of its data sets as “Romani” even though Roma people only make up 4.9 percent of the country’s population. If a minority population is disproportionately represented in a DNA database, this could create bias against “suspect populations,” some scholars argue. Some of these profiles came from population studies where the researchers thanked police forces for collecting the DNA.

It’s almost as if those stereotypes about Roma committing a lot of crimes are true.

Marginalized groups like the Roma people are subject to increased surveillance and policing because of personal, institutional and cultural bias,

Not because they commit crime at increased rates.

said Matthias Wienroth, a social scientist and ethicist at Northumbria University in the United Kingdom and an author on the paper. “The continued use of genetic samples and data from marginalized communities further marginalizes these communities.”

How dare scientists do research when it might get criminals arrested?

 
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  1. That’s the thing with euphemisms, they get found out after a while. You gotta keep coming up with variations, or even brand new ones. It’s exhausting … for all of us. Negro–Colored–Afro-American– Black–African American–What’s Next?

    As for these Gypsies, oops Roma, oops, Romani, they’ve got one more iteration at least before they have to gyp pay a consultant.

    “Single Moms, tramps, and thieves”, we’d hear it from the people of the apartment,
    Schneider’d call us, “Single Moms, tramps, and well, one real hottie, I gotta say.”

    • LOL: Cool Daddy Jimbo
    • Replies: @Forbes
  2. My godson is in elementary school in Romania. He got himself moved to a different class to get away from the Gypsy children. He said they smelled bad and were rude and stupid. He self-segregated to a class with more Hungarian children like himself.

    If a kid can figure this stuff out, why can’t adults?

    (The good news is that in Eastern Europe plenty of people still do understand, and they had no problem moving my godson on that basis. You couldn’t do that here in “The Greatest Country in the World.”™)

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    , @Luzzatto
  3. Arclight says:

    The Soviet Union might be dead and buried, but the effects of its various psy-ops against the US linger on. The weaponization of racial guilt was enormously effective and spread through every left of center party in the West as well as the right to some extent. The residual popularity of Marxism and its ideas in academia and journalism is because it provides a political framework for the redistributive racial and economic policies that cannot be justified under the system intended by our founders, although it has been bent out of shape thanks to activists and the courts.

    A biproduct is that our betters will tie themselves in intellectual knots to avoid speaking uncomfortable truths about human biodiversity, either out of conviction or fear of the outrage mob. John Derbyshire used to say that the weight of genetic knowledge will become too overwhelming to ignore at some point, but so far I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

  4. AndrewR says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    People in Western Europe understand too but are often blocked from rational responses to the gypsy problem by their governments which are run by a different parasitic, consanguineous tribe.

    Calling gypsies “marginalized” is so dishonest as to defy comprehension.

    Yes, it’s true in a strict sense, but they are the ones aggressively marginalizing themselves. Time after time, they are given the chance to assimilate into their host societies instead of living solely through theft and fraud, and they always reject this.

  5. @Arclight

    One wonders what role America’s geopolitical enemies and competitors might be playing in our current insanity. Seriously, how better to weaken us, to break us down, than to surreptitiously facilitate this?

    A good example from recent and still current American history is the anti-nuclear power movement. There were communists behind the scenes, because they knew that nuclear power would make the United States even more independent and powerful. The oil companies were involved too, and probably Israel as well (with its vested interest in the US involvement in their Middle East shithole.)

    Fact is: Go with your gut. You’re right. We’re right. All else is noise designed to weaken us and break us apart, because we are the strongest.

    And if this is wrong, it doesn’t even matter, so go with it anyway. Safe bet.

  6. Art Deco says:

    What Richard John Neuhaus said: “What is the function of intellectuals, but to tell us that things are not as ordinary people perceive them”. And also to insist that the chattering classes are determiners of strata of value rather than ordinary people or politicians listening to ordinary people.

    He said they smelled bad and were rude and stupid. .

    About 30 years ago, 60 Minutes did a segment on gangs of child pickpockets in Paris and other European cities, and how difficult it was given the common practices of French courts to locate and prosecute the petty gangsters who were running these scams. The children were Gypsy. During the course of the report, Diane Sawyer was filmed on a city bus with a bunch of these kids around her (median age about 11), and they managed to filch something from her. She remarked in her voice-over how much they stank. There was a book by an anthropologist named Isabel Fonseca on Gypsy populations in the Balkans published 25 years ago. One reviewer noted that the author attempted to accentuate the appealing features of the population she studied, but only succeeded in impressing the reader at how extraordinarily disagreeable they were to be around; one aspect of that disagreeableness is their smell. It’s a signature of that population.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @ScarletNumber
  7. dearieme says:

    the outdated term “Gypsy,” which is considered a slur

    There used to be at least two different mobs in Britain, the ones of Asian origin and the Irish ones. The latter were called “tinks” when I was a boy; in East Anglia they are “pikeys”, though maybe that covers both groups.

    The trouble is there are lots of people who sentimentalise both lots until they run across a few in real life.

    I remember once a London policeman expressing his disappointment at a bunch of “New Age travellers”. He’d hoped they wouldn’t enter the same criminal world as the others but then he’d caught some up to the same tricks. Still, I suppose they were bringing a dose of multiculturalism to Gypsy World. That should surely earn some praise. But do they bring healthy cross-breeding? Dunno but I doubt it. I expect tribalism rules.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  8. AndrewR says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Perhaps the geopolitical rivals of the US are subscribing to the old adage about not interrupting your enemy while they’re making a mistake, but I think it’s debateable how much of a mistake the ideology/actions of our ruling class are. Certainly the ruling class agenda is disasterous to the vast majority of Americans (although many people don’t understand this, and many more people are accruing short-term benefits from going along with it), but is the ruling class really making a mistake? I think reasonable people can disagree on this. What I do know is that “evil” does not necessarily imply “foolish.”

    Personally I think that if China/Russia/Iran/etc really wanted to stick it to the US ruling class, they would support pro-white people in the US – at least rhetorically – but I could be wrong.

    • Agree: Ben tillman
  9. The Romani Mask is necessary enter the Milk Bar and play the Ballad of the Wind Fish, which you must do to complete the Indigo-Go side quest and obtain the Troupe Leader’s Mask.

  10. @Buzz Mohawk

    I realize there are the Unz’s and China trolls who will insist that this is all Sinophobic, and I am a Neocon now, but there is plenty of behind-the-scenes Chinese influence on the cultural and political ruination too. I have had a number of examples told to me by Chinese people here.

    We think they are happy to just laugh at it all. I’m sure they are, but they are pushing here and there too. There was especially some Chinese push, via their WeChat app and so forth to help Donald Trump look bad on the ’20 campaign trial … not that he needed so much help with that …

    • Replies: @Lockean Proviso
  11. Ralph L says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    probably Israel as well (with its vested interest in the US involvement in their Middle East shithole.)

    So we would appease their enemies? The Shah and Saudis spread a lot of money around Washington.

  12. Art Deco says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The oil companies were involved too, and probably Israel as well (with its vested interest in the US involvement in their Middle East shithole.)

    Israel isn’t a sh!thole and the notion that Israel benefits from enhancing the significance of Arab countries is silly.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  13. My guess is that these types are upset that modern science can show that Roma/Gypsies are actually genetically distinct populations originating from South Asia and not just a subculture of itinerant peace-loving proto-hippies that the greater society treated poorly for no particular reason. (Thus deflating the standard liberal morality tale imposed upon the Gypsies in Europe). I think Gypsies perhaps fill some of the romantic ideals for lefty Euros that Indians do in North America – Gypsies weren’t greedy enough to fence in the land and claim it (this is what many of them claim is the origin of private property leading to capitalism leading to everything bad).

    They consider Gypsy a “slur” because it is derived from the word “Egypt,” where it was commonly believed that these people originated (I’d imagine as well that ordinary folks considered “Egypt” as shorthand for oriental cultures of swarthy peoples with gaudy clothes and jewelry – a sort of orientalism). So the Europeans who observed these people were correct that they were from the East, they just got the latitude incorrect. I doubt that the PMC types would prefer that they be called “Pakis” as a corrective.

    I think now we all deserve a short gif of Kari Wuhrer playing a film Gypsy who is probably not smelly:

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    , @TWS
  14. @Art Deco

    Right on time, Mr. Deco.

    Howdy!

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    , @Joe Stalin
  15. How dare scientists do research when it might get criminals arrested?

    I’m a broken record, but minoritarianism is just a cancer.

    There was a time–i was actually born into it!–when getting criminals arrested, generally upholding society’s norms, was just understood to be a good thing.

    • Agree: Forbes, seminumerical
    • Thanks: Calvin Hobbes
  16. El Dato says:

    “It’s just horrifying,” “Many didn’t believe us,” “it was simply so hard to believe” that such practices were “ongoing.”

    Sampling DNA is now like eating albinos in Africa.

    “The continued use of genetic samples and data from marginalized communities further marginalizes these communities.”

    But will this one weird trick get rid of organized (though marginalized) knife and axe-wielding hordes and their stolen puppy dogs, taking over your city and aggressively demanding gibs (cash only)?

  17. Mr. Anon says:

    An op-ed in Nature calls for higher ethical standards in the usage and analysis of genetic information from the Romani, a marginalized group in Europe.

    Gypsies are not “marginalized”. They are marginal. They put themselves on the margins of society through their own actions.

    “It’s just horrifying,” said Ethel Brooks, a Romani scholar and chair of the department of women’s, gender and sexuality studies at Rutgers University in New Jersey.

    A whole department which ought not to exist.

    • Replies: @Bill B.
  18. @Buzz Mohawk

    One wonders what role America’s geopolitical enemies and competitors might be playing in our current insanity. Seriously, how better to weaken us, to break us down, than to surreptitiously facilitate this?

    Buzz, I think that most of our wounds are self-inflicted. Let’s not turn into Democrats, who blame everything on Russia, or inflation on Saudi Arabia. They are the crybullies, we aren’t.

    That said, I’m not the only one to point out that when/if China wants to invade Taiwan, they should first send 150 agents to the US with sharpies to scrawl the word “Jogger”* on toilet seats, from sea to shining sea. Watch the US implode. Invade.

    About Israel, they do interfere in US policy in many ways, but encouraging the oil sheiks? That’s one I don’t get. I do think that US/Israeli relations are about to get mighty interesting, as the US/China war heats up. China is investing a lot in Israel.

    *wink wink

    • Agree: Sam Malone, Escher
    • Replies: @Rob
  19. Mr. Anon says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Art Deco could be a verse in A Christmas Carol:

    Eight Shills a-shilling………………….

    Seven Liars lieing………………………

  20. TPTB really do not want people thinking critically about–much less actively studying the genetics–the Gypsies.

    The problem with the Gypsies is that they are so openly a parasite ethnic group.

    In general, even intelligent, curious people don’t think very clearly or critically about minority groups. They aren’t supposed to–thinking critically is bad!

    But the Gypsies are so obviously an ethnic group that settled on the “parasite” game-theory solution to making a living amidst other peoples. If people realize that, they may start thinking about the game-theory solutions that other minority ethnic groups have evolved and whether those are actually beneficial in the long term to the nation’s people.

    One of the most obvious social facts of the modern world is how assiduously minority groups cling to living in the West, and in fact flock to the West, despite all our–racist, anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, xenophobic.–oppression, that we hear so much about. We try and try, but just can’t seem to get minorities to go away! Hmm?

    Thinking very hard about the Gypsies–how they live, how they interact with a nation’s majority, how their “diversity” enriches–is likely to engender thoughts that are not narrative compliant.

  21. Ok, they shall now be known as Romanix. And, how it is bad to point out that the Roma or Gypsies lead a lifestyle based on grifting and scamming. It’s in their DNA.

  22. inertial says:

    In the 2000s, papers on the genetics of Roma people still referred to the group with the outdated term “Gypsy,” which is considered a slur

    I feel for foreign researchers. Not only they are required to write papers in another language, they are expected to know what terms in that language are “outdated” in the Current Year. Just looking up words in a dictionary is not enough anymore.

    • Replies: @tr
  23. @Buzz Mohawk

    There were communists behind the scenes, because they knew that nuclear power would make the United States even more independent and powerful. The oil companies were involved too, and probably Israel as well (with its vested interest in the US involvement in their Middle East shithole.)

    Don’t get the Israel bit. I’m with James Watt (Interior sec. not steam engine) on the nuclear energy/Israel logic.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  24. @AnotherDad

    One event which I was stunned by and have seen zero media comment. In his heavyweight championship fight the gypsy king was licking the blood of his opponent in clinch. I have not heard of that since 1476.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

  25. nebulafox says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The old rule of intelligence services is this: nobody, no matter how competent or effective, can create political situations in targeted nations. You can exacerbate them, but you don’t create the underlying tensions at work. This is fundamentally rooted in the fact that a nation’s foreign policy is always at least (and often more) rooted in domestic politics, no matter how much we pretend otherwise.

    The brutal truth is that nobody in Beijing forced our leadership over the past 30 years to be so venal and/or stupid, any more than Moscow brainwashed millions of Midwesterners into electing Donald Trump in 2016. Do they take advantage of that and further encourage it? Certainly: it is in their national interests to do so, that’s what Serious Nations do! Blaming a rival for doing that is like blaming a dog for going after red meat. We’re at fault for the fact that we aren’t a Serious Nation-and unless that changes quick, hard times are ahead.

    If you are dumb enough to believe in that “end of history” BS and refuse to accept eternal human nature for what it is, or believe that ideas take precedence over material strength and physical reality, as our elites have, bad times will come when the credit runs out. And it has run out, or is about to.

  26. nebulafox says:
    @AnotherDad

    I take a middle ground on the topic. No matter how hard AIPAC tries to pretend otherwise, Israeli espionage and political manipulation is famously aggressive-and mendacious-against allied states as much as their enemies. But pointing the figure at Israel being the main factor for our Middle Eastern blunders ignores the fact that Israel needs us far less than they did 50 years ago. Israel’s far more geopolitically secure these days outside the Western World, both in the immediate region, and with the Russia/China/Indias of the world.

    Again: Americans are the ones who screwed up America, above all our elites, economic, media, political, bureaucratic, and military. It’s not that hard. It’s just not politically palatable.

  27. The Gypsies raise the practical/moral issue of what to do with useless/socially-destructive people?

    A nationalist, i think ethnic issues have a relatively straightforward solution–separate nations. Ethnic groups that want to maintain themselves as separate, should be in separate nations, where they can live and govern themselves according to their own norms and values.

    That suggests a “Gypsystan” for the Gypsies. But that would immediately be a comically bad shithole. You’d have to force all the Gypsies to go there.

    Inside a nation, the solution is “eugenics”. You encourage the productive and responsible to breed and discourage–and for the criminal and/or incompetent prohibit–the unproductive and irresponsible.

    But in this case, that would be just “genociding” the Gypsies because they are basically all unproductive, criminals.

    But doing nothing–let the Gypsies be Gypsy–you are just telling the majority, the nation’s people, they must put up with this ongoing parasitic criminality. And because the Gypsies are more fertile, are growing criminal tribe. You’re allowing the parasite to grow at the expense of the host.

  28. @Buffalo Joe

    when we visited Italy a few years ago with a tour group, there were explicit warnings from our guides about the Roma. They were all beggars with fake wounds and disabilities, apparently, who would prey on the sympathy of rich American tourists. We were not to give them a dime! Or a euro, or something. Also, they were all thieves, and we should guard our belongings carefully at all times.

    It reminded me of our homeless population here in CA, which exists solely to take drugs, camp out, and steal stuff. I wonder if the Roma are plugged into the drug network for organized sales. Our homeless bums aren’t cogent enough for anything sophisticated; they imbibe what they get and zone out on the ground all day.

    • Replies: @Rob
    , @Luzzatto
    , @Buffalo Joe
  29. Forbes says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Ach–It’s exhausting, as you say, running on the euphemism treadmill…

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @tr
  30. @AnotherDad

    I’d visit it for the music, mostly.

    I wouldn’t carry much cash on me, though.

  31. @AnotherDad

    The Gypsies raise the practical/moral issue of what to do with useless/socially-destructive people?

    A nationalist, i think ethnic issues have a relatively straightforward solution–separate nations. Ethnic groups that want to maintain themselves as separate, should be in separate nations, where they can live and govern themselves according to their own norms and values.

    The Irish have their own quasi-Gypsies, called the “Travelers.” They’re itinerant tinkerers, horse traders/thieves and known to bring drunkenness, brawling, and street crime wherever they go. Tyson Fury is from an Irish Traveler background, though raised in England. Genetically, it has been proven that they have no genetic link to Gypsies, and simply diverged from the settled Irish population at some point.

    In order to get them under control, the Irish had passed laws aimed at settling Travelers and outlawing their itinerancy. But Americanism has infected the Irish, and so there was a successful counter-campaign to repeal laws which oppressed the Travelers (again, they were just Irish who took up an itinerant, trouble-making lifestyle in the 1600s and are not genetically distinct from the settled Irish population).

    I think my point here is that one feature of the GAE and Americanism is that social disruption is a desired product, rather than an issue collateral to some great utopian vision.

  32. Art Deco says:
    @AnotherDad

    You could try vigorously enforcing the law, especially child protective. The better among them will learn to live on the right side of it and the worse will be sequestered in prison. Many will emigrate to countries where law enforcement is not so vigorous.

  33. Anonymous[218] • Disclaimer says:
    @Arclight

    the effects of [the Soviet Union’s] various psy-ops against the US linger on. The weaponization of racial guilt was enormously effective and spread through every left of center party in the West as well as the right to some extent.

    Undoubtedly the Soviets worked hard and smart to foster and weaponize racial guilt. However, most of the heavy lifting to establish this pernicious creed was done in America.

    Further, as has been pointed out by many observers including iSteve and HBD Chick, a substrate of residual if receding Christianity combined with infra-Hajnal genetic tendency to trust non-relatives contributed greatly to the West’s susceptibility to suicidal race ideation.

  34. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco

    It’s possible that gypsies really do smell. The ones I’ve seen begging on the streets of Europe didn’t look particularly clean. Gypsy caravans (to the extent that they still live in them) did not traditionally have indoor plumbing.

    But, it’s also kind of a natural human thing to think of people you don’t like (and generally humans don’t like anyone who is not part of their own group) as being “smelly”. This may be biological in that different genetics may lead to different people have different smells and we are perhaps programmed on a deep unconscious lizard brain level to be repelled by the differences or maybe this is due to differences in diet (more garlic or whatever). Japanese used to say that the Dutch (some of the first Westerners they had contact with) “smelled like butter” and this was not a compliment – to them butter smelled like something rancid. And in those days, Japanese were more in the habit of bathing than Westerners.

    Or else, just like “Jew” is to some people here (some people just refuse to believe that Rosenbaum is not Jewish no matter how many times this is debunked), “smelly” is sometimes just a euphemism for “people I don’t like” and doesn’t mean that the person in question is actually smelly.

  35. Anon[385] • Disclaimer says:

    OT: Biden’s pick for bank regulator has a shoplifting record. Naturally, she’s a Marxist. The own goals Biden has been committing are really something else. What a fool. Of course, considering the way he raised his dirtbag son Hunter, maybe he thinks character doesn’t matter. We can’t impeach Biden soon enough.

  36. Luzzatto says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    There is a a lot of Hungarian children in Romanian elementary schools?

    In The U.S you can not remove your kid out of a classroom because you do not want them to be around Gypsy kids? Which unified school district in The U.S has a lot of Gypsy kids?

    • Replies: @Houston 1992
  37. @Buffalo Joe

    Ok, they shall now be known as Romanix. And, how it is bad to point out that the Roma or Gypsies lead a lifestyle based on grifting and scamming. It’s in their DNA.

    Back home, my mom says they were called Tsigoyner. Has a nice ring to it.

    • Thanks: Buffalo Joe
  38. SafeNow says:

    How dare scientists do research

    Last night Tucker interviewed Dr. Atlas, Trump’s Covid expert. Atlas described how he knew the studies down to the “materials and methods” level whereas the Fauci-Birx-Redfield triumvirate operated at the “NY Times blurb” level. Atlas said that, at meetings, CDC docs even mispronounced medical terms. He said they could not get a job as an assistant professor at the institutions where he was.

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
  39. Luzzatto says:
    @Jack D

    In San Francisco there a lot of Gypsy families who perform on the streets with musical instruments. I’ve seen them upclose and I did not get a scent of bad smell hygienes coming from them.

    The Black and Anglo Saxon junkies in San Francisco smell way worst than the Gypsies.

  40. 2015 study pointing to Indian origins of the Roma

    I seem to remember hearing they got to be called Gypsies because they originated out of Egypt. Anyone else out there hear of such a thing?

  41. @Jack D

    It’s possible that gypsies really do smell. The ones I’ve seen begging on the streets of Europe didn’t look particularly clean. Gypsy caravans (to the extent that they still live in them) did not traditionally have indoor plumbing.

    Diane Sawyer being the typical far left journalist she is, it’s unlikely she’d have said this on camera if it weren’t similar to what you get from a random hobo who empties out subway cars in NYC.

  42. Muggles says:

    “The continued use of genetic samples and data from marginalized communities further marginalizes these communities.”

    This comment now on special Black Friday sale (oh-oh, another racist trope!) from Tautologies R Us.

  43. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D

    But, it’s also kind of a natural human thing to think of people you don’t like (and generally humans don’t like anyone who is not part of their own group) as being “smelly”.

    Take it up with Diane Sawyer and Isabel Fonseca.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
  44. @AnotherDad

    It’s the lack of intelligence. When your scams are pickpocketing, dropping your baby and bad roofing jobs, it’s hard to hide your parasitism. When it’s banking, financing, moneylending, etc. it’s easier to pose as “doing God’s work” as Larry Summers (?) described Goldman Sachs.

    Jews, Irish, Italians, Gypsies all start off as crooks, but only the gypsies stay that way.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  45. @Jack D

    “Or else, just like “Jew” is to some people here (some people just refuse to believe that Rosenbaum is not Jewish no matter how many times this is debunked), “smelly” is sometimes just a euphemism for “people I don’t like” and doesn’t mean that the person in question is actually smelly.”

    Orwell seemed to be particularly smell-oriented; perhaps due to hanging around the British working classes. There’s a lot of stench mentioned in 1984, and two of his most quoted lines are “smelly little orthodoxies” and how compared with other politicians of the 30s, “what a clean smell [Gandhi] left behind.”

    The latter is ironic, since according to Alain Danielou (who despised him), Gandhi’s Vedic doctor told him if he ate raw garlic he’d live forever, and so “a cloud of garlic stench” surrounded the Mahatma.

    • Replies: @utu
  46. “The continued use of genetic samples and data from marginalized communities further marginalizes these communities.”

    So, if science ignores them, it’s marginalizing them; and if science studies them, it’s marginalizing them. Got it.

    Who/Whom, as per usual.

    • Agree: res
  47. J.Ross says:

    >gypsies come from Pakistan
    >”British” people come from a particular valley in Pakistan
    >Pakistanis come from Pakistan
    And then one day, for no reason at all, the nations of the world agreed to erase Pakistan with fire.

    • Replies: @Cortes
  48. @AnotherDad

    A nationalist, i think ethnic issues have a relatively straightforward solution–separate nations. Ethnic groups that want to maintain themselves as separate, should be in separate nations, where they can live and govern themselves according to their own norms and values.

    AnotherDad, you may be interested to know that Reg Cæsar and I had a debate about your defining mantra as a commenter, which Reg self-contradictorily endorses, and I maintain is unrealistic:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/rittenhouse-and-his-antifa-attackers-good-guys-vs-bad-guys/#comment-5006129 (#416, etc.)

    Reg, getting thrashed, bowed out of our argument by failing to refute any of my points and bizarrely whining I “argue like Corvinus” (which would be an improvement over arguing like Reg on that thread, but I digress).

    But maybe you can clarify: You’ve long said you want “peaceful separation” into “separate nations” with White Nationalism (my term) being, in effect, your motivation:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/its-exhausting-to-be-at-the-top-of-the-intersectional-totem-pole/#comment-4743427

    The minoritarians have managed to get away with their crap because of generic white American goodwill. But what they continually fail to grasp, is that all this minority whining logically makes a clear case for … “separate nations”.

    If it’s such a big burden to be around us tedious “white bread” Americans … then, you know, hey let’s just stop doing it! Go do your own thing and leave us out of it. More and more white Americans are figuring that out.

    I argue that in reality such separation would almost certainly be massively violent (i.e. it would never be allowed by TPTB without a fight). Since you’ve given no details on how “separate nations” can come about peacefully, how would that occur? And what would that look like, according to your ideals, geographically; i.e. what specific borders?

    Because your longstanding Underpants Gnomes “straightforward solution” …

    Phase 1 “Guys, we must peacefully separate into separate nations.”
    Phase 2 … ?
    Phase 3 “OMG it’s so nice peacefully living in our separate nation.”

    … merely serves as a form of right-wing or tribalist virtue signaling. It broadcasts that you’re a ‘nice guy’ (NTTAWWT) but it isn’t practical or useful as stated. Are you up to the challenge of upgrading your commentary with some realistic solutions (subject to debate of course) to at least get some of what you want, or are you going to merely chant “Nirvana, now… please?” until the End of Days?

  49. @Jack D

    But, it’s also kind of a natural human thing to think of people you don’t like (and generally humans don’t like anyone who is not part of their own group) as being “smelly”. This may be biological in that different genetics may lead to different people have different smells and we are perhaps programmed on a deep unconscious lizard brain level to be repelled by the differences or maybe this is due to differences in diet (more garlic or whatever).

    No, I think lots of foreigners do indeed smell bad. I was making a deposit in one of the heavily Russian areas of our shared fair city years ago, and I could not help but smell “Sergei’s” horrific body odor while he was behind the teller wall and I was in the rope line waiting to be called. I knew a guy from Azerbaijan once who smelled like a goat which had been washed in cheap cologne. These were not natural healthy smells, but truly odious and arresting.

    My surmise here is that these people are simply used to bathing less frequently than Americans, and are not accustomed to the balms and lotions that we use to suppress body odor which makes us inoffensive to our neighbors.

    Japanese used to say that the Dutch (some of the first Westerners they had contact with) “smelled like butter” and this was not a compliment – to them butter smelled like something rancid. And in those days, Japanese were more in the habit of bathing than Westerners

    If I recall, East Asians have fewer sweat glands than Europeans and others, and they’re less hirsute, so their bodies are not as hospitable to hosting colonies of bacteria that cause bad smells than other races. It’s the various acids and fatty compounds in sweat (and which can be trapped in hair) that feed odor-producing bacteria. East Asians were probably just generally more sensitive to body odors because they’re much less pronounced among their own peoples.

    And my guess is that the Dutch were consuming many more dairy products than the Japanese, and probably more cultured dairy products which have a definite twang to them. After I eat something like a steamed lobster or littleneck clams with drawn butter I can smell that twangy, tending to rancid smell on myself for a few hours no matter how well I wash my hands, arms, and face afterwards.

  50. We have a large and growing Gypsy population in Ireland, if it keeps growing at the current rate we will soon have more Gypsies than Irish Travellers, and if you have a growing Gypsy population, people start to notice certain things, like crime for example, but its a bad idea to say it out loud

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/garda-reaches-settlement-with-us-professor-over-member-s-racist-outburst-1.4700966

  51. Art Deco says:
    @James J O'Meara

    When it’s banking, financing, moneylending, etc. it’s easier to pose as “doing God’s work” as Larry Summers (?) described Goldman Sachs.

    There’s no pose there. Financing enterprises, underwriting enterprises, and providing a conduit for people to redistribute consumer purchases over time periods are real services; people voluntarily pay for those services for a reason.

    • Replies: @scrivener3
  52. So you think gypsies steal because its genetic. I see. That makes sense.

  53. Yeah, those Gypsy Kings. Really bad. Their music obviously smells. They stole their ability to play their instruments and sing. That flamenco sucks too. Too gypsy.

  54. Rob says:
    @Paperback Writer

    Jogger is a great euphemism. I hear people on tv talk about the trials of the men who shot Amaud Arby’s, a jogger… and I think wow, holy crap batman, they just called him a jogger on national tv. Then I remember that they don’t even know that j*gger is another way of saying ninja.

    I feel sorry for people who run a lot, having everyone call them a horrible slur all the time.

    But seriously, calling him a jogger is the lying-without-lying that the MSM is so good at. A better media would refer to him as a chronic thief who used “jogging” as part of his MO.

  55. Yugoslavia likes its gypsies. Places like Czechoslovakia don’t. (Can’t wait for the corrections.)

    • Replies: @JMcG
  56. @Art Deco

    Agee. like it or not capital allication is an important job, one that public quasi governmental entities always fail at.
    the public finance markets in America is one reason we have more innovation than Europe where banks finance everything meaning established business gets all investment

  57. Art Deco says:
    @AndrewR

    People in Western Europe understand too but are often blocked from rational responses to the gypsy problem by their governments which are run by a different parasitic, consanguineous tribe.

    Yeah, European governments are run by a communal segment accounting for 0.16% of the population of the continent.

    • Agree: AndrewR, nokangaroos
  58. Anon[373] • Disclaimer says:

    More OT: There is talk Biden would like to dump Harris before 2024. If so, that means he thinks he can get elected again without her. But the only way he can win for certain is to cheat.

    So keep this in mind: If Biden does dump Harris, and risks outraging the entire minority-butt-kissing progressive wing of the Democrats, it’s because he’s made an arrangement to cheat his way to the presidency again. Biden cannot risk losing the massive Democratic left, so there has to be a sound reason why he would.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  59. Anonymous[332] • Disclaimer says:

    The worst odor that I’ve *ever* had to endure emanating from a living human body – the mystery is how can a human being produce such smells? – issued forth from some indeterminate swarthy character, with extremely bad broken English, who undoubtedly was one of Blair’s People, the massive importation of human cargo into the UK in the early 2000s.

    The only way I can describe the smell is by comparing it to a mixture of rancid linseed oil varnish intimately mixed with rotten – to the extreme – kebab meat.
    It was *extremely* hard to endure.

  60. Rob says:
    @stillCARealist

    I wonder if the Roma are plugged into the drug network for organized sales.

    I would be really surprised if they were. Even the most honest of dealers step on stuff a little. The profit margins for low-level dealers are just too low otherwise. Probably there’s an exception for rich people paying 2-3 times market prices. Also, pot dealers are better. No one is addicted to pot, and 50/50 pot and baby formula is really obvious.

    Buying drugs requires trust. Trust that it’s drugs. Trust that it’s the drug they say it is. Trust that it hasn’t been too stepped on. I cannot imagine anyone trusting a Gypsy enough to buy drugs from them. I cannot see gypsies being trustworthy enough that their potential clients would be passing up a good deal in avoiding them.

    Maybe some gypsies will sell you a good gram now so they can sell a fake eight ball later.

    There is also the matter of selling drugs to the gypsies. What makes you so sure you won’t be ripped off. Maybe having guns on them will help. Maybe. But currency can be counterfeit. The scales can be rigged. Maybe I cannot come up with a way to scam cautious wholesalers. Would the wholesalers be confident the Gypsies could not work it out?

    I have this nagging thought, though, that Europe does not have much of our population who are foolish enough to take the risks of dealing. Without blacks willing to take the risk for easy money, drugs would be more expensive and harder to get.

    God, I feel bad for Europeans if they have to get their drugs from Gypsies.

    That would make rehab look like a good time.

    • Replies: @Luzzatto
  61. Luzzatto says:
    @Rob

    A lot of Muslims in Europe are drug dealers. I watched a documentary on Tunisian and Egyptian drug dealers in Paris.

  62. Luzzatto says:
    @stillCARealist

    Gypsies? The drugs that California junkies consume come from Mexico. Are there a lot of Mexican Gypsies in the Cartels?

  63. @Art Deco

    In some British tabloids, she is probably doomed to be known forever as Isabel “Fun-seeker,” the bosomy American home wrecker who in 1994 busted up Mr. Amis’s first marriage and made him fire his longtime agent, the wife of his best friend, so that he could extort from his publisher more money to spend on cosmetic dentistry.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/fashion/20fonseca.html

  64. hhsiii says:

    OT: NPR breaks news that racial covenants are still in old recorded deeds, and something must be done (even though they haven’t been enforceable since 1948):

    https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1049052531

  65. @dearieme

    dearime, Great,in my opinion movie, “Snatch”, directed by Guy Ritchie, starring Brad Pitt as a bareknuckle “pikey” fighter. I would give it a solid three stars. Never heard the term “pikey” until I watched this movie. Dennis Farina has a great role too. Stay safe.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
  66. @Rob

    And then there’s its derivation: jogga, as in “shoot me jogga! shoot me jogga!”

  67. @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Alec, she can pick my pocket! I’ll keep all the money in the front pockets!

    • Replies: @JMcG
  68. @Rob

    Jogger Is a great euphemism.

    How about motorist Rodney King? He was always referred to as motorist Rodney King, as if it were part of his name, with no mention that he was a drugged-up criminal driving 120 mph..

  69. @Forbes

    Indeed, Mr. Forbes. While I’m writing, just to clear this up, I should have written:

    Romanos, tramps, and thieves…“, for those unfamiliar with 1970s TV. Ann Romano is the single Mom, and no, she’s not the hot one – that’d be her TV daughter Valerie Bertinelli.

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    , @Reg Cæsar
  70. tr says:
    @inertial

    I feel for foreign researchers. Not only they are required to write papers in another language, they are expected to know what terms in that language are “outdated” in the Current Year. Just looking up words in a dictionary is not enough anymore.

    That’s why they put dictionaries online, so that they can be updated in an afternoon to match the direction the zeitgeist is blowing. Too bad peer review takes months.

  71. tr says:
    @Forbes

    Ach–It’s exhausting, as you say, running on the euphemism treadmill…

    We live in inflationary times—you need to expect inflationary euphemism.

  72. Hhsiii says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I saw Bonnie Franklin sing at the Algonquin circa 1993. Not bad, standards mostly.

  73. O/T, re World War Hair

    ‘Gorilla Glue girl’ releasing rap single detailing her hair horror’

    https://nypost.com/2021/11/18/gorilla-glue-girl-releasing-rap-song-about-her-hair-horror/

  74. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Yes its true that the food you eat will have an effect on your odor, but the Japanese complaint about Dutch/European sailors was probably a fair one, the Japanese were meeting men who had spend months at sea, water is important at sea, back in the day it was mainly for drinking not washing, you should watch the Russell Crow film Master and Commander

  75. TWS says:
    @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    IIRC they lied about being from Egypt. Who could tell at this point? They lie as easily as breathing

  76. European, ca. 1980: Why don’t you Americans treat your black people with compassion?

    American: Why don’t you Europeans treat your Gypsies with compassion?

    European: That’s different. They really are as bad as we say they are!

    Joy Reid: “If you want to know why critical race theory exists, the actual law school theory that emphasizes that supposedly colorblind laws in America often still have racially discriminatory outcomes...”

    Mx. Reid is right. Colorblind laws have racially discriminatory output thanks to racially discriminatory input. All laws enacted by white people are inherently discriminatory because they reflect a white worldview– e.g., murder and rape are evil, not “what the bitch had comin’”.

    Were whites isolated (as we should be), white supremacism would be impossible. We really should take a look at (a literal) critical race theory, and consider smacking them with their own weapon.

    In other words, pull a Rosenbaum.

    • Replies: @Luzzatto
  77. TWS says:

    Steve, you should repost your article on the guys who went to prove the gypsies were not criminals and the gypsies wound up strong arming them

  78. anon[307] • Disclaimer says:

    SERIOUS QUESTION!

    does anyone know why (or if) the nazis targeted the gypsies?

    does anyone know that this is a MYTH?

    it doesn’t make sense from the historical linguistics perspective nor from what himmler himself said. nor from the supposed body count. if the nazis had wanted to genocide the gypsies in europe, they did a really bad job, only 25% supposedly. and there were also (non-euphemistic) deportations, to transnistria for example.

  79. @Achmed E. Newman

    The Hollies’ follow-up to their Distant Light album was called Romany, after a Colin Horton-Jennings song on it. The cover, by Hipgnosis, is a winter take on the summer pond scene of the previous one. Apparently it’s the same man at the pond as well.

    What made the whole thing bizarre was that the lead singer had (temporarily) departed, and the group had imported another from Sweden, one with a much deeper voice and an accent thick enough to notice in song.

    The Romany in the song was a ship.

  80. @Arclight

    John Derbyshire used to say that the weight of genetic knowledge will become too overwhelming to ignore at some point

    If Derbyshire believes that, he’s stupid.

    The zeitgeist does not change as a result of the accumulation of facts; it changes through organised propaganda that operates on what people believe.

    This in turn is because the vast majority of human beings are imbeciles whose cognition[sic] places almost no weight on epistemic value. Expecting the Mass Man to critically evaluate empirical evidence is as stupid as expecting a dog to tune a piano.

    but so far I don’t see that happening anytime soon

    If you want a sensible way to form an expectation, consider that we’ve had almost 2 generations of relatively-unfettered archaeological research into the likely facts surrounding the primary (claimed) beliefs of the three major religions that infest the Mass Mind in the West. It has been established to a near-certainty that they are pretty much fact-free. (That should have been obvious to anyone who knows where the back-stories unfolded, and the proximity of a major literate Empire in the vicinity: bear in mind that from Avaris/Hutwaret – the largest city in the world at the time – to Be’er Sheva is less than 200 miles).

    Very few people have changed what they (claim to) believe: all that has happened is that people who (claimed to) believe have died off, and have not been replaced.

    This is how things change: the Old Guard dies; to the extent that they indoctrinate their offspring, the stock of people who (claim to) believe grows or declines; if the indoctrination is half-hearted the stock of people who (claim to) believe goes to zero.

    Form your expectations on that basis, and you will never be surprised.

    There will not come a time when the Mass Man ‘works out’ that the Pfizer shots are not vaccines; that they do not immunise; that they are utterly useless, and likely counterproductive, even for the aged.

    But they will know that we have always been at war with Eastasia.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  81. @kaganovitch

    Is that yiddish? In german it’s Zigeuner pronounced the same phonetically.

  82. @Buffalo Joe

    You beat me to it Joe. I watched Snatch again last week (got it from the library) and it was still as funny as when I first saw it. Ritchie’s latest The Gentlemen is also good if you like British crime capers.

    • Thanks: Buffalo Joe
  83. utu says:
    @James J O'Meara

    “smelly little orthodoxies” – To Gen. Patton Jews (from description of the attire they could have been Hasidic) he encountered in Germany were very smelly.

    We entered the synagogue, which was packed with the greatest stinking bunch of humanity I have ever seen. When we got about halfway up, the head rabbi, who was dressed in a fur hat similar to that worn by Henry VIII of England and in a surplice heavily embroidered and very filthy, came down and met the General…. The smell was so terrible that I almost fainted and actually about three hours later lost my lunch as the result of remembering it….

    • Replies: @Ralph L
  84. It’s worth noting that all this nonsense about Gypsies owes little to the Gypsies themselves: do they complain or protest at all?

    No, it’s all the ideologues — and they’re usually from countries without a lot of Gypsies. Actual contact with Gypsies seems to lead to a swift decline in sympathy.

  85. @stillCARealist

    stillCA, ah the homeless in Ca., now known as the unhoused, fuels a NGO industry that pays big dividends to the “directors” of non profits. SF is setting up a safe site for the use of drugs. Sad.

  86. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    In about 2012 I walked past an apartment in my then-complex where some real Russian-speaking Russians lived. The door was wide open for some reason, I think maybe they were moving out, and a bunch of them were standing in there chatting, and to this day I can remember the flood of sheer horror as the smell from inside came out and assaulted my senses with such phenomenal power as I briefly passed. I literally could not understand how they could possibly be in there at all, much less stand living there. A real eye opener. Good god that smell was unbelievable, musty, stale, and just dirty. I admire Russia and the Russian people in many ways, but that experience did some damage.

    And then about 5 to 10 years ago the place I was working had a company on a nearby floor that seemed to hire only Indians, so they often rode the elevators with me and my co-workers. They didn’t seem to speak much English and their body oder was always noticeable and sometimes quietly remarked on – I remember wondering whether Hinduism had a ban on deoderant. However, I’ve known many American-born and raised Indians, and never noticed a smell at all, so it would seem to indicate a lower standard of foreign hygiene.

  87. Ralph L says:
    @utu

    That was before they began removing the carcasses from their fur hats.

  88. Luzzatto says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    If Gypsies are worst than Blacks why do European nations with a large Gypsy population all have a lower per capita murder rate than The U.S with it’s large Black population? Why isn’t Sofia with it’s large Gypsy population more dangerous than St. Louis for example?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Art Deco
  89. Anon[370] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Hopeful Covid news? Here in Japan we’ve had weirdly low Covid rates, now down to a couple of dozen or fewer in Tokyo, and down to zero in many prefectures (state-level entities, including Tokyo). This summer, with half the U.S.’s population Japan has had a tenth fewer daily infections. The explanation has been mask wearing, rule following citizens, and a smaller anti-vax contingent. but trains are jammed and bars and pachinko parlors are jammed when they are not shut down. The government has little legal enforcement power shutdowns. So it’s really puzzling.

    This article has a new theory that Delta wiped out the competition, but then went haywire and wiped itself out. It sounds nutty, but the researchers behind it seem legit. Until the New York Times covers this, I remain skeptical.

    What’s behind the rapid disappearance of the delta variant in Japan? It could be self-extinction.
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/11/1

    But the chief reason may be related to the genetic changes that the coronavirus undergoes during reproduction, at a pace of around two mutations per month. According to a potentially revolutionary theory proposed by Ituro Inoue, a professor at the National Institute of Genetics, the delta variant in Japan accumulated too many mutations to the virus’s error-correcting, non-structural protein called nsp14. As a result, the virus struggled to repair the errors in time, ultimately leading to “self-destruction.”

    Studies have shown that more people in Asia have a defense enzyme called APOBEC3A that attacks RNA viruses, including the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID-19, when compared to people in Europe and Africa.

    So the researchers from the National Institute of Genetics and Niigata University set out to discover how the APOBEC3A protein affects the nsp14 protein and whether it can inhibit the activity of the coronavirus. The team conducted an analysis of the genetic diversity data for the alpha and delta variants from infected clinical specimens in Japan from June to October.

    They then visualized the relationships among the DNA sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus to show genetic diversity in a diagram called a haplotype network. In general, the bigger the network is, the more positive cases it represents.

    The network of the alpha variant, which was the main driver for Japan’s fourth wave from March to June, had five major groups with many mutations branching out, confirming a high level of genetic diversity. The researchers thought the delta variant, which the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says is more than twice as contagious as previous variants and might cause more severe illness in unvaccinated people, would have a far more vibrant genetic diversity.

    Surprisingly, they found the opposite to be true. The haplotype network had only two major groups and the mutations seemed to come to a sudden stop in the middle of its evolutionary development process. When the researchers went on to examine the virus’s error-correcting enzyme nsp14, they discovered that the vast majority of nsp14 specimens in Japan seemed to have undergone many genetic changes in mutation sites called A394V.

    “We were literally shocked to see the findings,” Inoue told The Japan Times. “The delta variant in Japan was highly transmissible and keeping other variants out. But as the mutations piled up, we believe it eventually became a faulty virus and it was unable to make copies of itself. Considering that the cases haven’t been increasing, we think that at some point during such mutations it headed straight toward its natural extinction.”

    Inoue’s theory, while innovative, would lend support to the mysterious disappearance of the delta variant’s spread in Japan. While much of the rest of the world with similarly high vaccination rates, including South Korea and some Western countries, are suffering from record waves of new infections, Japan appears to be a peculiar case in that COVID-19 cases have remained subdued despite trains and restaurants filling up following the end of the most recent state of emergency.

    • Replies: @Rob
    , @Art Deco
  90. Anon[370] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Scott Alexander, formerly of Slate Star Codex, did a deep dive into the Ivermectin research, and determines that it works … but only in countries with high parasitic worm infections … apparently because Ivermectin kills the worms, which weaken patients against Covid.

    This explains all the studies from Third World Countries that seemed to be positive on Ivermectin, but were pooh-poohed as fraudulent or sloppy research by elite scientists. The whole issue was clouded by a few studies that actually were fraudulent or sloppy.

    Along the way Alexander explains all the cool tricks and techniques that can be used to detect bad research, techniques that have been developed since the replication crisis hit. He also recommends radical open data release, which would have sped up detection of fraud and mistakes, and explains why in some situations it’s not a good idea to believe the scientists.

    Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted To Know
    https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted

    • Thanks: res
  91. Bill B. says:
    @Mr. Anon

    Ethel should spend time with this delightful man who was never AFAIK referred to in the press by his origins:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi_Bellfield#Early_life

  92. @Jack D

    To us,you honkies smell like wet dogs!

    • Replies: @Jack D
  93. Science Denialism Through Quibbling

    J. K. Rowling might say “science denialism through quidditch”.

    As for Gypsies, when will these songs be canceled?

    [MORE]

    (Written for something called the Mask and Wig Club!)

  94. @Fidelios Automata

    In the Slavic languages, it’s some variant on tsiganskee, in French and Spanish Gitan, in Italian Zingaro. The English “Gypsy” appears to be an outlier, deriving from the common false belief that this race originated in Egypt.

  95. @Luzzatto

    Why isn’t Sofia with it’s [sic] large Gypsy population more dangerous than St. Louis for example?

    Because having your pocket picked isn’t fatal.

    What you are saying is that Europeans should be less prejudiced toward Gypsies than Americans are toward blacks. But they are not.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  96. Rob says:

    For people better at ethnic looks, does Ethel Brooks look like a stereotypical gypsy? I also wonder at her blood quantum of gypsitude. Is she maybe an Elizabeth Warren? Using a vague story of tiny ethnic ancestry to give herself a hook in cutthroat academia? I sure wouldn’t want to tell a “prominent Gypsy academic” that Gypsy moths got their name because, yes, they are similar to Gypsies.

    I also wonder, I know the costumes are very different, but if you had to do a two-of-three cluster of Slavs, Jews, and Gypsies, would Jews and Gypsies be the cluster? Like, could some antisemitism be misplaced antiziganistic feelings?

  97. Agitprop says:
    @Arclight

    Sorry, no. You’ll never understand the current year, much less fight against it, if you continue to see it in those terms.
    They don’t feel white guilt. They see themselves as honorary blacks.
    Just look at Grosskreutz.

  98. lavoisier says: • Website

    Marginalized groups like the Roma people are subject to increased surveillance and policing because of personal, institutional and cultural bias,

    Not because they commit crime at increased rates.

    said Matthias Wienroth, a social scientist and ethicist at Northumbria University in the United Kingdom and an author on the paper.

    People like Matthias Wienroth are why the world is in such a mess.

    Why are so many academics nothing more than professional prevaricators?

    Matthias Wienroth is a very stupid man.

  99. @Fidelios Automata

    Yes that was Yiddish . But now that you mention it, it’s much more likely my mom was in fact speaking German than Yiddish as German is her first language. I will ask her tomorrow d.v.

  100. Anon[379] • Disclaimer says:

    OT: There are reports that fighting in public school has become an epidemic right now. Missing a year of socialization has made the ferals even more feral. This headline is a classic and shows the dysfunction of blacks:

    “Video shows brawl at Cleveland school that caused lockdown, ended college fair.” Yes that’s right, fights among blacks ended their chances to get scholarships to college.

    https://fox8.com/news/i-team/video-shows-brawl-at-cleveland-school-that-caused-lockdown-ended-college-fair/

  101. @Luzzatto

    Hmm I think Hungarians , (and perhaps the odd remaining German) in Transylvania register as ethnic Romanians and speak Romanian as needed to avoid discrimination….

  102. @Fidelios Automata

    In [G]erman it’s Zigeuner pronounced the same phonetically.

    And in French:

    • Replies: @Gary in Gramercy
  103. @Reg Cæsar

    ‘What you are saying is that Europeans should be less prejudiced toward Gypsies than Americans are toward blacks. But they are not.’

    After encountering them, I decided Gypsies could be described as blacks with brains. I don’t mean that as a compliment to either group.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  104. Anon[393] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Merkel”s Mistake East?

    In major shift, Japan looks to allow more foreign workers to stay indefinitely

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/11/18/national/japan-indefinite-visas/

    In a major shift for a country long reluctant to accept immigrants, Japan is looking to allow foreign nationals in certain blue-collar jobs to stay indefinitely starting as early as the 2022 fiscal year, a Justice Ministry official said on Thursday.

    Under a law that took effect in 2019, a category of “specified skilled workers” in 14 sectors such as farming, construction and sanitation have been allowed to stay for up to five years, but without their family members.

    The government had been looking to ease those restrictions, which had been cited by companies as among reasons that they were hesitant to hire such workers.

    “As the shrinking population becomes a more serious problem and if Japan wants to be seen as a good option for overseas workers, it needs to communicate that it has the proper structure in place to welcome them,” said Toshihiro Menju, managing director of think tank Japan Center for International Exchange.

    They mention Vietnam and China. Filipino workers have married Japanese men in the countryside, and from all reports assimilate culturally very fast, with children who are basically Japanese (but maybe not in IQ terms). There are also Indonesians and Malaysians, who are mostly lovely people, but who are Muslims, bad news long term. Many, many Chinese are here. They are smart, but culturally tend to be rule breakers, litterers, not group altruistic, and with a narrow radius of trust, unlike Japanese, so to the extent those traits are partially genetic, bad news.

    The big potential problem are Nigerians. They are here for construction. And now they can stay indefinitely, rather than five years? Sheesh. Big mistake.

    The article mentions “shrinking population.” They need to connect the dots between that and “fertile immigrants bringing their families” and “demographic inertia.”

    • Replies: @Luzzatto
  105. An op-ed in Nature

    is much less work than a research paper, and yet grants its authors an equally prestigious journal citation.

    or with pejorative terms such as “inbred” or “consanguineous.”

    The latter is not actually pejorative, but is a technical term that seldom enters everyday speech. Either term is factually accurate.

    It is hideously embarrassing – for the academics who write about such matters – to admit that a minority ethnic group practises a vice that most of us do not, and that the outcome for them is predictably bad.

  106. @Reg Cæsar

    The eternal enigma: a Havana is a cigar fit for Hashem, but une Gitane is pour tout le monde:

  107. @Art Deco

    one aspect of that disagreeableness is their smell

    Just like The Blues Brothers (2:21)

  108. Anon[102] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    There’re news stories now about a Chinese tennis star posting a #metoo style post on Weibo. The impression is that she was raped by a senior party official.

    (Pet peeve: articles that do not link to the original documents, whether it be a law or bill or indictment or complaint or, as here, a single social media post.)

    After extensive Googlejutsu I found a link to the “Washington Post” translation. 404. I looked for it in the Wayback Machine. “Access not allowed” for the two crawls on the 15th and 16th. I perservered and found a screen shot of the Chinese, a screenshot of an English translation, and a YouTube video that scrolls up another English translation. Verdict: Another neurotic woman who simply had an unsatisfying relationship.

    The #metoo incident was a consensual, non-forced sexual relationship over three years with a married politician in his 60s, consummated in his bedroom while his wife was in the house. The tennis player mentions romantic feelings and being hurt by the relationship’s being kept secret and by being ghosted three years into it when the guy was promoted. When he left the post seven years later (recently) he invited her out of the blue to his house to have dinner with him and his wife (who didn’t know about the relationship maybe, but it’s not clear … and kind of defies belief) and had sex with him afterwards. The post implies some degree of hysteria by her towards him because she feels he hasn’t treated her right. At no point did this guy have any particular specific power over her or her sports career. Now the tennis player has supposedly “disappeared,” at least in the sense that she is not contacting Western media or overseas acquaintances … which might simple mean she is living her life in China just the way she had been prior to her #metoo fame. (This is a pet peeve, like articles that talk about “reclusive novelists” who live normal lives, go to PTA meetings, and whose reclusiveness is simply that they don’t do publicity to outlets the writer reads.)

    As a #metoo this ranks as lamer than Aziz Ansari and about the same level as Chris Hardwick and his crazy girlfriend Chloe Dykstra. Any relationship that a woman decides, maybe months or years later, is not the Disney princess movie she wanted, is apparently now abusive and a #metoo.

    The big problem is how this incident is being completely misrepresented by the media.

    Full translation of Peng Shuai’s Weibo post, accusing Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli of sexual assault from tennis

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    , @Jack D
  109. Rob says:
    @Anon

    If I explain things that you already know, especially if I am mansplaining them — explaining things to you that you know better than I do, then let me apologize here.

    This hypothesis looks wrong. APOBEC3G messes with retroviruses by making cytosine (C) to uracil (U) mutations. Which is followed by demethylation to make thymine? Sounds unlikely, probably followed by error repair reading the deoxyuracil as thymine and correcting the complementing G to A, which would require there to be a complementary strand, so it would happen after integration into a chromosome. Some APOBEC3 proteins do use ssRNA, including A3A.

    Not to mention, there is no “delta strain” genome that mutates. Every virion in a SARS-CoV-2- delta (or any other) strain infection has its own genome. The ns14 exonuclease is the coronavirus proofreading enzyme. Its gene will not mutate in every delta variant genome at the same time.

    SARS coronavirus with a catalytic dyad double-mutation (each one is abrogating) in ns14 was propagated in culture for a hundred or maybe 200 passages without having a total mutational meltdown. They stopped passaging because it started forming syncytia huge, multinucleated cells) because the fusion protein was fusing cells together instead of only virions to cells. So, it adapted to culture conditions. If it was still producing functional virions, then it did not really experience mutational meltdown.

    In serial passaging, usually the “infectious dose” the next culture gets is much larger than in person-to-person transmission. People also have more antiviral defenses than a cell culture and more viral generations, but syncitia-forming genomes have no interhost fitness unless they also produce functioning virions. So, more selection against (better innate antiviral response and adaptive immunity) and smaller interhost population transfer mean smaller effective population size, so it’s possible that a proofreading enzyme null mutant took over, but it’s still really unlikely.

    Ok, I found a paper that a proofreading deficient mutant CV protected old, immunocompromised mice from a challenge, ie. it was a vaccine. So, if you infect a host with exoN- virus, the host is not only not killed, he’s immune. That’s a minor point in the author’s favor. What that paper did not look into was a “mixed” infection, proofreading and non-proofreading in the same infectious dose. My guess, if the deficient one died out in immunocompromised mice, is that the proofreading one wins out. But maybe? Getting a virus that acts as a vaccine and spreads from the vaccinee to new hosts and vaccinates them without mutating to virulence is a really hard needle to thread. It would be super-cool if covid did it on its own, but if it dies out in an immunocompromised host, it’s really unlikely to pass through several hosts.

    The proofreading deficient virus being nonlethal in an immunocompromised host suggests a test for the researchers’ hypothesis. What was the death rate for people infected with A314V virus, if the hypothesis is true, it’s really low.

    It suggests another test. When viruses are given a scenario that increases the mutation rate in vitro, usually by nucleotide analog (a chemical analog of A, T, C, or G that is incorporated in lieu of one base but is read as a different one or is incorporated for two bases) the virus usually evolves a higher fidelity polymerase, the enzyme that synthesizes the genome. This happened with the in vitro passages exoN- minus coronavirus. Did this happen with the putative exoN- virus in Japan?

    The group’s analysis is not really consistent with an editing enzyme null mutation takeover. One would expect more divergence following the takeover but before the entire effective population of virions experienced a mutational meltdown. A thousand flowers bloom in each host, and they each beget more flowers (divergence) but those flowers all have mutations, and by happenstance, the immune system of the host kills the ones that are not mutators.

    Typically, mutational meltdown requires an extreme bottleneck, so that just by dumb luck, the mutator strain is the only one that’s around.

    Lastly, A to V is alanine to valine. These are fairly similar amino acids. Both have an aliphatic R group — the part that defines an aa — aliphatic is carbons bonded to only hydrogens and (single-bonded) to carbons. Neither alanine nor valine is likely to be involved in catalyzing the proofreading, preventing mutations in the coronavirus genome. By unlikely, I mean it’s not catalytically active. It’s possible that the protein does not fold with valine there (it’s bigger) but ns14 binding to the rdrp (the protein that synthesizes the genome and mRNAs) is necessary for the virus to replicate at all.

    So, second lastly, A3A does do ssRNA as a substrate. It seems to require a hairpin loop, or at least that’s one of potentially several substrates. For ssDNA, the preferred substrates are TTCA, TTCG, CTCA, and CTCG (mutation target bolded) according to the paper. Let’s check out alanine and valine codons
    Alanine: GCN
    Valine: GUN
    Where N is any base. So, if A3A has the same preferences for ssRNA as ssDNA, NGCN is not a good substrate for the enzyme.

    All in all, it seems more likely thst something else is keeping delta rare in Japan.

    Thank you, btw. This was fun.

    • Replies: @Anon
  110. EdwardM says:

    Great title, Steve. Perhaps you are referring in part to the technique, a common pursuit in all areas of academic research these days, of combing through old badthink in every type of media to produce these types of meta-analyses. This is the yeomans’ work required as a prerequisite to scrubbing it, 1984 style. I suppose it can get you tenure, at least until an AI program is developed to do the research for us.

    I can picture the wide-eyed grad students’ utter glee every time they come upon the word “Gypsy” in some obscure academic journal from 1971 and strike through it with a yellow highlighter (or the on-screen equivalent). (Maybe they use green highlighters for references to “DNA” and orange ones for “criminality.) Then there is the more senior grad student or assistant professor who gets to write the rubric (algorithm) for searching through these articles and entering the results in a spreadsheet to be loaded into SAS, then the more junior students, perhaps Chloe working on her undergraduate thesis, who have the task of tracing through all of the references behind the highlighted passages, recursively covering the entire literature. She probably has a folder on her desktop called Also Problematic where she downloads articles to use in future studies on different topics.

    I am sure that the researchers’ fervor makes this all very fulfilling for them. An analogy I have used before is the students who took over the U.S. embassy in Tehran trying to piece together the shards in the document shredder.

    • LOL: YetAnotherAnon
  111. @Rob

    I feel sorry for people who run a lot, having everyone call them a horrible slur all the time.

    The more serious ones among us have always referred to ourselves as runners; joggers were those slowpokes who went out once a week. But now I kinda wish I could become a “jogger” over the last hundred yards of my next 10k.

  112. @Achmed E. Newman

    Some anon on twitter was saying that the ChiComms were behind TiKTok algos pushing the video of black girls on the SEPTA train beating up Asians. If so, thank you Xi for doing an end run around the censors here.

    Maybe they’re trying to scare Chinese students with the reality of urban black crime and encourage their brains to stay home instead of coming to our universities now that every idea worth stealing has been stolen. What else have you seen or heard of Chinese subversive influence on the breakdown of the West?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  113. @kaganovitch

    Tzigane was the French word.

    Wiki can sometimes be wonderful. In one item, the existence of the luthéal, the existence of a violinist called Jelly d’Arányi, and a short dissertation on “gypsy music”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzigane

    The name of the piece is derived from the generic European term for “gypsy” (in French: gitan, tsigane or tzigane rather than the Hungarian cigány) although it does not use any authentic Gypsy melodies. Note that in Ravel’s days in Paris gypsy/gitan/tsigane/tzigane did not so much refer to the Roma (Gypsy) people in any strict sense: the “gypsy” style of the work was rather a kind of popular musical exoticism, comparable to the Spanish exoticism in Wagner’s day (compare Emmanuel Chabrier’s España), or the Janissary exoticism in Mozart’s day (Rondo alla Turca).

    I’d take issue with that last bit – isn’t a lot of the exoticism of Spanish music, especially flamenco, heavily gypsy-influenced? I remember caves in Granada where gypsies lived who played a lot of music – while others picked the pockets of tourists.

    Wiki again, on a young Django Reinhardt, born on a Romany site.

    “He became adept at stealing chickens.” Having married at 17 then deserted his wife and child, “accompanying him on his travels was his new girlfriend, Sophie Ziegler. Nicknamed “Naguine,” she and Reinhardt were distant cousins.

    There’s hatefacts everywhere.

    We are all told of the terrible treatment and prejudice that travellers suffer when they move into a settled community. Here you can find out what happens when a couple of nice liberal social-worker types pitch their caravan alongside Irish travellers, at the annual Stow Horse Fair in the well-heeled Cotswolds.

    http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001511.php

  114. @Anon

    To be fair that is a very sad post, if genuine.

    It’s not sexual assault, its a guy who’ll say absolutely anything to a woman in order to get in her pants, a story as old as time*, though the power differential must have played a part. But she was willing to be his concubine.

    ” I thought I would just accompany you quietly, not making any noise”

    Is the original Weibo post still extant as a copy?

    Someone should bring this to the attention of “at”heldavidson, who’s writing about sexual assault. I don’t twut.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/peng-shuai-missing-tennis-star-china-story-whisper

    * from “La Delaissado” by Canteloube through the Irish song “Blackwaterside” to Whitesnake’s “Would I Lie To You”. I bet there are much earlier examples, sometimes I regret not having a classical education.

    • Replies: @Anon
  115. Art Deco says:
    @Anon

    I think you mean Biden’s handlers. It’s doubtful that he’s making any decisions at all. His verbal facility has declined so quickly in the last two years that it’s a passable wager he’ll be in assisted living by 2024 unless (as was done with Ronald Reagan) he’s at home in Delaware and we’ve put the Secret Service to work as an elder care squad.

  116. Art Deco says:
    @Luzzatto

    Because their book of business is theft, fraud, and general disorder, not violent crime.

  117. Art Deco says:
    @Anon

    I’m wagering they engineered the virus in such a way that it would be less lethal to Oriental populations.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
  118. JMcG says:
    @obwandiyag

    Well, for a start, there is no longer a Yugoslavia.

  119. JMcG says:
    @Buffalo Joe

    Joe, years ago there was a beautiful girl who drove a roach coach around the job sites in Chester County, PA. I mean beautiful. The secret to her devoted following was that she’d always put your change into your pocket for you. I miss her so.

    Take good care of yourself and Happy Thanksgiving to you and all your family.

  120. Jack D says:
    @kaganovitch

    Like many Yiddish nouns, this one was borrowed from the local language. It’s hard to say which local language because some variation is the name for gypsies (oops, Romani) in almost every European language. Gypsy was the outlier.

    From the Hungarian cigány via French tzigane, from Byzantine Greek τσιγγάνος (tsingános, “Gypsy”).[1][2][3] Cognate to Italian zigano, zingano and zingaro, Spanish cíngaro, German Zigeuner, Dutch zigeuner, Afrikaans sigeuner, Portuguese cigano, Romanian țigan, Polish Cygan, Czech Cikán, Russian цыган (cygan), Turkish Çingene.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tzigane

    The Greek word derives from “untouchable” and is therefore negative. Gypsy is derived from Egyptian, a mistaken guess as to where they were from, and so is neutral in nature but became negative because the word became associated with some of the negative characteristics of the Romani.

  121. JMcG says:
    @Colin Wright

    Well, there goes that plan.

  122. Jack D says:
    @Anon

    Now the tennis player has supposedly “disappeared,” at least in the sense that she is not contacting Western media or overseas acquaintances … which might simple mean she is living her life in China just the way she had been prior to her #metoo fame.

    I agree with you that this is really not much of a #metoo but the idea that she is just living her life and hasn’t (at the very least) been told by the Party to shut up or else is currently in some kind of detention is laughable if you know how things work in China.

    Here is here latest “everything is fine” and I just made up all the allegations screenshot. The chances that this wasn’t coerced (if she wrote it at all) are zero:

    https://twitter.com/CGTNOfficial/status/1461025491842916358/photo/1

    • Replies: @Anon
  123. @Lockean Proviso

    No, that wasn’t one of the deals I had in mind, L.P. You are right about “Thank you, Chairman Xi” on that one!

    No, keeping the Chinese out of American universities would surely NOT be a good move by the Chinese. There is still quite a bit of intellectual property yet to steal. Additionally, Chinese students (along with Indians) keep decent Americans from getting decent RA or post-Doc money by doing the work for cheap. It’d be great for US if they all left tomorrow.

    One of the moves was about giving false information about tickets to a Trump rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I will have to get back to you on the details (after consulting with my source – I saw the WeChat thing back then 1 1/2 years ago), as I can’t remember if it was about the reservation of tickets by the app users who would not go. The big idea was to keep the turnout low.

    Honestly, the Chinese don’t know Americans, as I wouldn’t really care what the turn-out was in Tulsa, were Trump to have a rally nearby. The Chinese think “losing face” is the worst thing in the world. If that was the case, Trump would be the scum of the earth to me. He’s not.

    They’ve got their hands in things. Mr. Proviso. Amazingly, even the universities are not lefty enough to have not noticed what the “Confucius Centers” are up to. Many have been shut down.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  124. @Houston 1992

    Hmm I think Hungarians , (and perhaps the odd remaining German) in Transylvania register as ethnic Romanians and speak Romanian as needed to avoid discrimination….

    They of course speak Romanian, because they are smart enough to be bi-lingual and because, as realists, they accept that Romanian is the language of the political entity in which they live. All Hungarians in Transylvania (millions of them) are bilingual in this way.

    They do not “register as ethnic Romanians,” however. The distinctions are clear there, and everyone freely identifies as what they are. It is an honest culture, unlike what we have here in the West.

    The previous commenter, Mr. Luzzatto, appears to be an aggressive, Aspergery nerd who takes things literally and who doesn’t know shit about Transylvania.

    My godson lives among many Hungarian Transylvanians close to the border with Hungary. The Treaty of Trianon drew a very unnatural border separating him from his countrymen to the west, and thus now, 100 years later, he must grow up negotiating this nonsense with Gypsies and Romanians.

    Don’t get me wrong. I like Romanian people. They are warm and friendly, more so than the Hungarians, truly, but I despise Gypsies. They are trash, and the people of Romania and Hungary agree with me because they actually have to live with them.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    , @Cortes
  125. Anon[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob

    Wow! Way over my head, I have to admit.

    Japan really has had it relatively easy, and the cultural explanations seem too pat, not to mention racist. I wish I knew why the infection rate has been so low. I want to avoid infection until all the antiviral medicines are approved and available over here. We have the Regeneron IV and injection cocktail already approved, but stock is limited and few places can offer it. The new tablets and the other antibody cocktails are not yet in the approval process.

  126. @Buzz Mohawk

    BTW, there are clearly identified, ethnic political parties in Romania. There are unabashed Hungarian parties, and they routinely win portions of the national vote. Thereby, they are represented in the national assembly.

    This is all out in the open, totally ethnic and realistic. You could never have this in America or Western Europe today. It really is a different world, and a very refreshing one to this (admittedly flawed) commenter.

    • Replies: @IHTG
  127. @Joe Stalin

    I used to buy gold from a family-owned company in California from which John Wayne himself bought gold. Everything up to kilo bars. Unfortunately, they have gone out of business, but you can take it to the bank that Mr. Wayne invested in real, physical gold that he purchased from that company. They were great to deal with, even from all the way across America.

  128. Anon[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    I did find and download an image copy of the Chinese post. It’s somewhere on Chinese Twitter, meaning on normal Twitter in a tweet in Chinese. I didn’t note the URL.

  129. @AndrewR

    Thank you. You understand this issue. Every time I am in Romania, I see the free houses built for Gypsies by American charities. Western people, Americans in particular, don’t understand. They are pouring their dollars down a toilet bowl.

    None of this sympathy or charity has changed anything. It is truly sad, because WE wish it would make life “better” for them as we see it.

    But they do not want to change. This is why I use the analogy of weeds in a garden, or parasites on a farm. Unfortunately, our opinion-makers are city people with no experience of life in nature.

    Gypsies are parasites, weeds to be rid of. Nevermind that they look human. You people have given them every chance. Good for you. You are good. They are weeds and parasites.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  130. PSR says:

    a Romani scholar and chair of the department of women’s, gender and sexuality studies at Rutgers University in New Jersey.

    That has GOT to be the least demanding academic teaching position imaginable.

  131. Jack D says:
    @Martin Luther King

    Funny you should mention dogs. Dogs (owned by white people) notoriously don’t like blacks. This is a known thing.

    https://zora.medium.com/wow-dogs-really-dont-like-black-people-f7618445b43a

    My own dog, a labradoodle who generally speaking likes everybody, used to bark furiously whenever she saw a Negro, to the point where it was noticeable and embarrassing. And no I wasn’t giving the dog racist training. Since dogs go more by smell than appearance, I assume that blacks must smell different to a dog.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  132. Luzzatto says:
    @Anon

    The Japanese are part of the same race as the Chinese, Indonesians, Filipinos, Vietnamese, Malaysians, etc so it’s not race mixing, so what’s the problem?

    You are one of those extremely low IQ White Supremacists who believe the Japanese are racially closer to Caucasoids than they are to other Mongoloid groups.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  133. @Jack D

    My own dog, a labradoodle who generally speaking likes everybody, used to bark furiously whenever she saw a Negro, to the point where it was noticeable and embarrassing. And no I wasn’t giving the dog racist training. Since dogs go more by smell than appearance, I assume that blacks must smell different to a dog.

    It’s possible that on average, blacks are a simmering cauldron of anger and resentment, and emit the corresponding pheromones. That triggers canine reactions, since they can literally smell impending aggression.

  134. Jack D says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I understand your analogy but it’s not a good thing to say. If a creature is a parasite, it naturally follows that you should exterminate it. You-know-who took this quite literally.

    Jefferson had it right – all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life.

    Hate the sin, love the sinner.

    In the Old Order, gypsies served a socially useful function. If they had done nothing but steal, they would not have been tolerated. Aside from entertaining people with music and fortunetelling and being very good with horses, they were skilled tinkers. A tinker is a metalworker, specializing in the repair of pots and pans. In the days before people could afford to throw their stuff in the trash and just order fresh stuff from China, this was a valuable skill (but not one that was needed on a daily basis). My mother remembered the gypsies showing up in her shtetl in their wagons maybe once a year. Everyone would bring out their dented and sooty cookware. The gypsies would build a huge fire (the equivalent of a self cleaning oven) and burn off all the accumulated soot and grease. They would hammer out the dents and solder the pinholes (look up tinker’s dam) and return your cookware looking as good as new for a modest payment. Then it was back into their wagons and off to the next town. Maybe a few chickens went mysteriously missing but cie la vie. Everyone has got to eat.

    The extremely dysfunctional gypsy that does nothing BUT steal is an artifact of modern society.

  135. @Jack D

    My wife reminds me that just a couple of months before we bought our current house at a bargain price, we dropped some American dollars to the Gypsies on New Years Day.

    You see, it is a tradition that they will come around playing music on the first day of the year, and you give them something. My wife says if you are generous then you will have good luck. I had nothing less than a \$20 bill in my wallet, so that is what we dropped over our balcony. They cheered and waved to us!

    Less than two months later, we got our house at a ridiculously low price.

    She says, half seriously, that’s why.

    I just say okay. BTW I’ve heard from her all about the tinkers. She also reminds me that some great musicians have come from Gypsy families. Doctors, even. Forgive me if I sound cruel. I can be that way sometimes. This is the intardnet, and I am an intard.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  136. IHTG says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    ??? Native ethnic minorities in Western Europe most certainly do have their own political parties. The Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru, the Catalans and the Basques, the Swedes in Finland?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  137. Jack D says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Doctors, even

    Gypsy play music at your wedding – yes.

    Gypsy fix your pots – yes.

    Gypsy train your horse – yes.

    Gypsy tell your fortune – yes.

    Gypsy do your heart surgery – NFW.

    Traditionally gypsies were completely illiterate as their lifestyle did not allow them to send their kids to school. To this day, gypsies are considered to have a high rate of dyslexia even though they can be skilled musicians and artists and conduct very elaborate cons – their brains just ain’t wired for book larnin’. Some gypsies must have settled down and lived a non-itinerant lifestyle and intermarried with the locals (gypsies did not have their own religion as such) such that it wouldn’t surprise me if the average Hungarian or Romanian has some small % of Romani DNA but I wouldn’t call those people “Romani” or “Gypsy” any more than Liz Warren is an “Indian”.

    • LOL: JMcG
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    , @Reg Cæsar
  138. @Jack D

    Gypsy do your heart surgery – NFW.

    … I wouldn’t call those people “Romani” or “Gypsy” any more than Liz Warren is an “Indian”.

    LOL. Point well taken.

    But if any of them come around playing music, be sure to give them a generous donation!

  139. nebulafox says:
    @Luzzatto

    >The Japanese are part of the same race as the Chinese, Indonesians, Filipinos, Vietnamese, Malaysians, etc so it’s not race mixing…

    This is not true. To put it mildly. Japanese, Punjabis, and Javanese are probably more significantly genetically further apart than Irishmen, Portuguese, and Ukrainians are from each other.

    • Replies: @Luzzatto
    , @res
  140. nebulafox says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    It’s still a work in progress, but China’s universities are developing to the point where they attract their own foreign graduate students from developing countries who want expertise they can’t get at home-Indonesians seem to be particularly common in “student cities” like Wuhan. It’s still relatively affordable, obviously much closer to home than Europe or the US, and Mandarin language skills aren’t terribly uncommon even among bumis (“native” Indonesians, i.e, not ethnic Chinese) thanks to the popularity of Singaporean media and pop culture through the region. This is pretty astounding given that knowing Mandarin would have gotten you in serious trouble back in the Suharto days, which weren’t all that long ago, relatively speaking.

    China’s main weakness is that they lack as solid a “middle-to-lower” class of universities as other developed countries (and especially America, at least until the great awokening). But there’s no reason to believe that this is always going to be true.

    India… yeah, that’s another story.

  141. nebulafox says:
    @AndrewR

    The Jews didn’t like the Romani any more than other antebellum Europeans. The latter were complete outsiders to the European mainstream in a way the Jews weren’t, and lacking literacy and being *so* visibly alien, couldn’t really have assimilated even if they wanted to back in those days. (Nowadays, obviously, things are different.)

    It’s not remembered as much as the Holocaust, in part because it wasn’t as complete or systematized, in part because the Romani aren’t predisposed to keeping the memory of genocide alive in the way that settled, literate cultures (such as the Jews) are, and of course, lack the necessary social capital. But the Nazis did try to “solve” the Gypsy problem back in a time period when they weren’t as much of a nuisance. Strangely enough, I don’t think that made things better.

  142. megabar says:

    > at which point using “Romani” will be racist and the sensitive will instead be referring to them as “People of Gypsitude.”

    If the terms used to describe something change, with the older terms no longer considered merely passe but offensive, it’s an indicator.

  143. @Jack D

    Gypsy play music at your wedding – yes.

    Well, they did give us flamenco, Django, “Volare”, and “Djobi Djoba”, so they must know something about music.

    Apparently djobi djoba refers to a Gypsy slut, “livin’ la vida loca”. ¿Cancelación, anyone?

    • Replies: @AndrewR
  144. Luzzatto says:
    @nebulafox

    The Japanese are just as equally Mongoloid as the other Asians. Which is why Japanese people are always mistaken for being Chinese by White people and Black people.

    • Replies: @res
  145. Cortes says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Hungarians are spread throughout former Habsburg lands. There’s an unhappy bunch in the south west of Ukraine. I used to be friendly with a Hungarian Serb. Any European with experience of living with Gypsies has nothing but loathing for them.

  146. AndrewR says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Yes the Gipsy Kings are great

  147. @Houston 1992

    No, Hungarians of Romania live in compact areas, often away from Hungary. Nobody knows what they are talking about, and what language they speak.

    They hardly speak Romanian until high school, and even there it’s a shitshow. They can take the equivalent of SAT in Hungarian, and go study in Cluj or Mures, stuff like maths, marketing, botany or whatever, all in Hungarian, and all paid by the Romanian government.

    After that, they usually go clean the toilets in Italy, like many Romanian graduates, since the job market in Hungary proper is worse than in Romania, and they can’t pass a job interview in their birth country either.

    Since Viktor Orban came to power, the Hungarians of Romania got various kinds of glitter: so-called private radio stations broadcasting any type of programming in their language, so-called private investors paying for laughable soccer or ice hockey teams. The sad thing is, this year, Romania overtook Hungary in income after adjusting for PPP, so the few tens of thousands of fooled youngsters have smaller-than-ever real attachment to the Hun Entity.

    Really, the majority of Hungarians of Romania are like the proper Romanians with regards to religion. That is, 95% declare to pollsters that they love religion, but fewer than 10% attend mass weekly.

    Also, the Hungarians of Romania have an ethnic party which takes about 5% of the national vote, so it’s often the case that a government cannot be put together in Romania without their ayatollahs. Although the Hungarian-majority counties are, by some metrics, worst place in Romania (for example, lowest vaccine rate), the ayatollahs are leaning right, and always supporting more tax cuts for the rich.

    Amazingly, the Hungarian-speaking voters do vote for their ayatollahs in as large numbers as the majority votes for the other parties, despite being screwed by the ayatollahs. If they were crypto-Hungarians, they wouldn’t vote so, but they are excessively proud of their marginal status.

    Re. Gypsies, go check any census map of Romania on Wikipedia, and you will find that the percentage of Gypsies correlates with the percentage of Hungarians. There are Gypsy favelas in Cluj and Mures, next to the Hungarian-language universities, so ugly you wouldn’t see them in the villages of Moldova. Not the sort of no-go areas around Paris, but still very unsafe places that burn down every few years. Pata Rat, in Cluj, was shown on 3 hour-long episodes on Channel 4.

  148. @SafeNow

    Atlas said that, at meetings, CDC docs even mispronounced medical terms. He said they could not get a job as an assistant professor at the institutions where he was.

    This is typical of the top level of the US .gov bureaucracy who are normally political appointees.

    They are _way_ out of their element in the intricacies of operations in the bureaucratic world–both technical and organizational.

    Most of what they present to the media in press conferences or interviews is a combination of fantasy and agenda-driven false narratives.

    I know of one case where one of these political appointee folks honestly believed and publicly stated a specific number that was off by a factor of one hundred. Several folks from the outside and inside tried to convince them the number was crazy wrong but they just weren’t buying it….of course the reporters were so ignorant of the subject matter they had no clue.

  149. Anon[393] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    currently in some kind of detention is laughable if you know how things work in China

    I side more with a modified Hanlon’s Razor observation that China haters tend to jump the the worst possible interpretation. I think the email could just be her trying, futilely, to shut down the viral story about her. Why? I think the original post is embarrassing for her, paints her as a neurotic, manipulable, naive, hysterical woman. She realized that quick after she “sobered up,” and she deleted the message. As with any viral situation, you are the fuel, and the deletion threw fuel on the fire and caused it to explode. The only solution to an internet/Twitter viral event involving you is for you the fuel source to shit-the-fuck-up for three weeks. Then they are on to something else. She may have realized that, or she may just not want to answer questions about her weird sexual relationship with an elderly married man.

    Could the Chinese government, in its distributed, “working towards the Fuhrer” manner, be censoring mentions of the incident? Certainly. Simultaneously they are censoring tens of thousands of other things written by tens of thousands of other, ordinary Chinese. That is not any sort of proof that she was raped, which she never ever claimed herself, or carted off to a prison camp.

    Because of my training I read news stories like a lawyer. What are they saying, exactly, not what are they implying? Is passive voice involved, and if so, who is the intended subject of the sentence? Who is the source for each claim? Is the anonymous source for this claim the same as for that claim, or different? Is the source the journalist, based on what he read on Twitter? So let’s work through the claim that this woman has “disappeared.” Let’s use the New York Times.

    Concern and Anger Build Over Missing Athlete’s Sexual Assault Allegations

    The case of Peng Shuai has prompted the women’s tennis tour to rethink its heavy focus in China, where it has threatened to pull events if it cannot verify that she is safe and that her allegations are investigated….

    “I hope she’s safe,” McHale said.

    … Chinese tennis star who has been unreachable since making public her allegations ….

    … the tour wants verifiable proof that Peng is safe. He has said that no one in the tennis community has been able to contact her directly….

    … “She didn’t speak any English, and she was with us for two years,” Chris Evert said on Friday. “She was painfully shy, and most of our coaching was with sign language. I remember we were always trying to make her laugh. She was intense on the court. It was hard for her to fit in with the language barrier, and I sensed a real loneliness.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/19/sports/peng-shaui-china.html

    So, is she missing, according to evidence from the newspaper of record?:

    [MORE]

    1. She’s painfully shy and lonely. So she probably has few close friends who keep in touch with her.

    2. She doesn’t speak English. (So the email is either fake or written for her, perhaps at the advice of someone or under some pressure, or perhaps on her own initiative in an attempt to make the embarrassing controversy go away.)

    3. Someone who is not stated to have ever been in the sort of relationship with her that would involve regular contact with her in China “hopes she is safe.”

    4. She is passively-voice “unreachable,” since making allegations. Was she reachable before the allegations. Had she been regularly “reached” by people prior to that date” Who are they? What was the instrumentality of their “reaching”? Email? Phone calls? Video calls or meetings of some sort? She’s shy and had trouble making friends, and her carreer has peaked: Why would there have been regular contact with her before, and why has it caused suspicion that there isn’t now?

    5. The tennis authorities unilaterally “want proof she is safe.” This is probably a true statement. It is not evidence that she has disappeared.

    6. Nobody in “the tennis community” has “been able” to “contact her directly.” This is mush. This sentence should be something like this: “Bob Smith, her former U.S. coach. has kept in touch with Peng, both by email and by phone, with two or more contacts per week during the pandemic. Immediately after the Weibo post he emailed and has continued to email her, with no response. A call by him to her number three days ago was answered by a male voice in Chinese, and he was hung up on.” And so on. There should be facts. And hopefully the facts should somehow be inconsistent with “she just wants to ghost people for now until things die down, because she knows her ‘friends’ will immediately contact the media or tweet out something, and the controversy will explode even bigger.

    So the New York Times gives no support to the “missing” theory. But they put the word “missing” in the fucking title. And other media now feel like they have cover for that claim.

    I might be wrong, and presumably future events will tell, but can you understand my frustration with how sloppy the media has become? “China is evil” is the narrative, so every story involving China must be presented as proof of evil.

  150. @IHTG

    OK. I’m wrong about Western Europe. Thank you for teaching me.

    In America there is no such thing, and if tried a huge backlash and accusations of “racism” would occur. However, we all know the Democrat party is the Black party and also the Anti-White Party.

  151. res says:
    @nebulafox

    Some data on Japanese genetic distance from other groups.

    First, worth noting that there are three distinct genetic groups in contemporary Japan, but the Hondo comprise 99% of the Japanese.
    The fine-scale genetic structure and evolution of the Japanese population
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0185487

    Abstract
    The contemporary Japanese populations largely consist of three genetically distinct groups—Hondo, Ryukyu and Ainu. By principal-component analysis, while the three groups can be clearly separated, the Hondo people, comprising 99% of the Japanese, form one almost indistinguishable cluster.

    This paper looks at the genetics of East Asian populations in the HGDP.
    Analysis of East Asia Genetic Substructure Using Genome-Wide SNP Arrays
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0003862

    The PCA plot in Figure 1 gives an idea of which are most/least closely related. Unfortunately, their Fst matrix omits values for the Japanese (JPT) except for their relation to the Chinese (CHB).

    I think the BEDASSLE R package provides a good way to look at this, but don’t have the time to do it now.
    https://search.r-project.org/CRAN/refmans/BEDASSLE/html/calculate.all.pairwise.Fst.html

    This figure looks like a good comparison across 51 HGDP populations.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506643/figure/pone-0049438-g001/?report=objectonly

  152. res says:
    @Luzzatto

    For someone who is referring to others as “extremely low IQ White Supremacists” you seem to have an awfully naive view of Asian genetics. See the figure at the end of my previous comment and then maybe we can turn this into a reasonable conversation?

    • Replies: @Luzzatto
  153. MEH 0910 says:
    @Kratoklastes

    John Derbyshire used to say that the weight of genetic knowledge will become too overwhelming to ignore at some point

    If Derbyshire believes that, he’s stupid.

    Derb:
    https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/place-your-bets-jim-crow-jim-snow-or-murraytopia/

    Charles Murray wrote this latest book, he tells us, as a warning: If we don’t return to a more balanced, more realistic view of human nature, he says, there will be a rising resentment among white Americans against the Jim Snow order, with unpleasant consequences.

    In Murray’s preferred state of society, people accept reality, including the reality of race differences, and social advancement is strictly meritocratic, without racial favor or disfavor. He says this meritocratic Murraytopia, is what we should strive for. If we don’t, then white resentment will eventually boil over, and we’ll be back to something like Jim Crow.

    I say he’s dreaming, and I think Razib agrees. To swallow reality, as laid out by Murray, you need to be able to think in a formally quantitative way about statistical distributions. How many people can do that? It takes a somewhat above-average intelligence: I’d guess an IQ of 110 or more. That’s 25 percent of whites but only five percent of blacks: nothing like enough to propel us to Murraytopia. Sorry, Charles, no sale.

  154. @Jack D

    “You know who took that quite literally.”

    I assume you’re referring to Hellstorm?

  155. Luzzatto says:
    @res

    Why are Japanese ALWAYS mistaken for Chinese by the masses but NEVER mistaken for Nordic Aryans by the masses? There have been cases of Japanese people being blamed for the Chinese Covid by Black and White Americans who can not tell Japanese and Chinese people apart.

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