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Rochester, NY Had Its First Racial Reckoning 50+ Years Ago: It Didn't Help
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Upstate New York was the Silicon Valley of the 19th Century, in part due to the Erie Canal, the abundant water power, and the population largely consisting of educated and enterprising post-Puritans from New England. Stanford U., for example, was largely an offshoot of the faculty and administration of Cornell U. in Ithaca, NY.

The small black population of upstate New York tended to be better educated and better accepted than in most of the rest of the country. Hence, a half century ago, upstate New York was famous for big liberal tech companies, such as Xerox and Corning Glass, that had ambitious affirmative action plans for blacks in business.

How’d that all work out anyway in places like Rochester and Syracuse?

Evidently, not so hot, because the medium-sized cities of upstate New York now tend to have some of the lowest-performing black communities in the U.S. For example, from my most recent article on the Stanford database of school test scores across the country:

Finally, San Francisco’s blacks score 1.0 grade levels below the national black average, worse even than blacks in Baltimore, Oakland, St. Louis, Buffalo, Cleveland, and…Detroit. For black performance, San Francisco beats only Rochester, Milwaukee, and Syracuse.

The New York Times runs a rare article looking back at the post-Emmett Till era:

‘Black Capitalism’ Promised a Better City for Everyone. What Happened?

In the wake of nationwide protests, corporate America has pledged to fight racism and support Black Americans. But a similar initiative started decades ago in Rochester shows it is a promise that is difficult to sustain.

By Michael Corkery and Photographs By Todd Heisler
Sept. 12, 2021

ROCHESTER, N.Y. … But Panther Graphics is the product of a complicated legacy. The company is one of the few sizable, Black-owned employers operating in Rochester, a city of 200,000 people, 40 percent of whom are Black.

There was a time, though, when Rochester was on the cutting edge of Black “community capitalism” — an effort to create companies owned, staffed and managed largely by Black people that could lift up the broader community.

Just as giant corporations have pledged billions to help combat racism and support Black Americans in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, corporate investments in Black businesses were seen as an antidote to racial unrest in the 1960s, a way to ease the tensions that threatened the reputations of burgeoning corporate hubs like Rochester.

Some of those efforts in Rochester were quite bold and innovative at the time. Looking back now, though, the long-term challenges of achieving those ambitions shows the limits of social activists partnering with big business and how such efforts may not make a substantial dent in the systemic issues of poverty and racism affecting the broader Black community. It is a disheartening case study for the many companies that have made public commitments to promote equity and inclusion this year.

Nearly 60 years ago, Xerox teamed up with a Black power group to create a factory that made vacuums and other parts for copying and film processing and was partly owned by its work force.

For decades, Kodak and Xerox — both with large operations in Rochester — dominated the city’s business landscape.

That company, which was eventually called Eltrex Industries, provided hundreds of manufacturing jobs to Black residents, including Mr. Jackson, who credits his experience there with providing the skills and connections he needed to start his own business.

As part of an effort to promote more racial equity, Xerox also recruited Black engineers and technicians to Rochester, including Ursula Burns, who rose to become the first Black woman to lead a Fortune 500 company as chief executive officer.

Eventually, Eltrex shut its doors in 2011. Its challenges were blamed on a mixture of racism and its reliance on winning contracts from Xerox and Kodak, which were fighting for their own survival in a digital age and whose ability to support the venture became more limited.

Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.

“With as many corporate entities as Rochester has, you wouldn’t think it would have such a large poor Black population,” said Dennis Bassett, a former executive at Kodak and Bausch + Lomb, who is Black and moved to Rochester in the 1970s.

That contrast seems even more stark these days, after a particularly tumultuous time for the city, which is the nation’s third poorest, by one measure, after Detroit and Cleveland.

I don’t see the word “welfare” in the article, but my guess would be that Upstate New York’s pre-1960s liberalism tended to attract the most industrious blacks. But after the state of New York started generously boosting welfare payments in 1961, Rochester et al tended to attract the laziest blacks.

 
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  1. Anon[323] • Disclaimer says:

    Eventually, Eltrex shut its doors in 2011. Its challenges were blamed on a mixture of racism and its reliance on winning contracts from Xerox and Kodak, which were fighting for their own survival in a digital age and whose ability to support the venture became more limited.

    Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.

    In other words, the company was not competitive with its rivals with its products, and its sales department was below par, so when the charity handouts stopped, the company went belly up.

    The corporate benefactors should have insisted that their business amount to no more than half of the company’s revenues, and then steadily reduced that.

    Question: How many employees, and how many managers, of this “black” company were white? Technically, they couldn’t discriminate. But maybe it was a little too black. “Black-owned” companies generally do best when the black is a figurehead to a white guy, and the company is mostly white. That’s how government contracting works. In the ideal case, the black co-owner “works from home” Covid-style and drops by the company every week or two.

  2. Gee, imagine focusing on profit, which companies are generally in business for, as well as providing products that consumers want to purchase? Versus sponsoring black activist identity. Color me shocked.

  3. “Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.”

  4. Rochester has arguably the worst weather of any city in the country. It needs all the help it can get. Unfortunately it’s not getting any.

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Polistra

    Winters are harsher farther inland in New York. That aside, you go out Midwest and you get hit with 'continentality' - baking in the summer (w/ tornados) and blizzards in the winter. The rap on Rochester is that it's overcast most of the time. Summertime at night is sweet.

    Replies: @charles w abbott, @Polistra

  5. Regression to mean.

    • Agree: Joseph Doaks, Bannon, 3g4me
  6. • Thanks: Stan d Mute
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Abe

    Cooperstown and Ithaca are nice.

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @Jake Barnes, @Hodag, @slumber_j, @profnasty, @36 ulster

    , @profnasty
    @Abe

    Benedict Arnold fought here baby!
    Couldn't stop laughing.
    They should put up a giant statue.
    He had it right.

    , @anonymous
    @Abe

    That was beautiful

    Very clever.

  7. ‘Black Capitalism’ Promised a Better City for Everyone. What Happened?

    Alinsky’s Farting Negroes

    • Thanks: Nicholas Stix, Ben tillman
    • LOL: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Reg Cæsar

    Truly breathtaking symbolism.

  8. White Rochesterians has been obsessed with Negroes ever since Frederick Douglass lived there and hooked up with a white woman in the 19th century.

    Today, the Negro population of the city is exceptionally violent and homicidal, and the black political class exceptionally corrupt. The black mayor and her husband were recently charged with illegal gun possession and child endangerment, in addition to the drug-dealing charges he was facing and the campaign fraud charges she was defending herself against. A black city judge was arrested for DUI a few years back, violated the terms of her probation, and was hit with felony charges for attempting to purchase a shotgun while on probation. Not to be outdone, a dreadlocked black city councilman went to prison last year for ripping off a HUD-funded program to uplift po’ urban black chillen.

    Yet the smug white liberals insist on thinking and acting as if they live in God’s own Eden, and you fail to agree it is only because you are too stupid and too racist to see how wonderful Rochester really is.

    • Thanks: Joseph Doaks
    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Dr. X


    Yet the smug white liberals insist on thinking and acting as if they live in God’s own Eden, and you fail to agree it is only because you are too stupid and too racist to see how wonderful Rochester really is.
     
    Well, Rochester was once called, "Smugtown, USA," not without reason.

    People here are very insular, and it is difficult to break into local circles.

    There are nice areas, but that's as high as the bar goes - nice. Never great, excellent, or sublime.

    At least the local road system is quite overbuilt versus the population so there are hardly ever any traffic jams.
    , @Art Deco
    @Dr. X

    Yet the smug white liberals insist on thinking and acting as if they live in God’s own Eden, and you fail to agree it is only because you are too stupid and too racist to see how wonderful Rochester really is.

    Doesn't describe Mrs. Towler at all, or the old Metro-Act crowd. (One of Mrs. Towler's shticks was that the nightlife was too dull to induce her children to stay there). Their problem is that they have the same solutions for every problem you name: hire more social workers, hire more teachers, and redistribute more income (or provide more 'services'). And they're certainly not inveterately opposed to the sort of sketchy public-private deals that are floated every so often to 'revive' downtown.

  9. People who think they are Black need to reject their socially constructed label.

    • LOL: Joseph Doaks
  10. @Reg Cæsar

    ‘Black Capitalism’ Promised a Better City for Everyone. What Happened?
     
    Alinsky’s Farting Negroes

    Replies: @Polistra

    Truly breathtaking symbolism.

    • LOL: Gary in Gramercy
  11. This quote really could’ve been from the Babylon Bee as opposed to the New York Times: “Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.” I guess this is why many black businesses don’t thrive; they are not interested in profit.

    • Replies: @West reanimator
    @PaceLaw

    Nah, the community leaders are correct. Focusing on profit means the black-owned firms have to compete on the free market,where they will fail. Focusing on black activism means they can just rent seek off the local government and successful corporations, where it is impossible to fail.

  12. @Abe
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VYTg4GY9SA4

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @profnasty, @anonymous

    Cooperstown and Ithaca are nice.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    @Steve Sailer

    Is the brewer of Maximus Super still in Ithaca?

    Replies: @Forbes

    , @Jake Barnes
    @Steve Sailer

    Even Syracuse, and even within the city limits, was a fine place to grow up through the 80s and 90s. No interest in ever going back, and have hardly visited in a decade. It is a shell of what was already a shell of itself. If it weren’t for the University and the SUNY medical school it would be much worse, which is a terrifying thought.

    Replies: @Forbes

    , @Hodag
    @Steve Sailer

    I have always wanted to play Leatherstocking but have never been in the region.

    , @slumber_j
    @Steve Sailer

    Corning's nice too--at least the downtown and the Glass Museum, which I recommend highly.

    We were there this spring on the way back to CT from a road trip to Cincinnati: not as prosperous a town as it should be, as I imagine Corning Inc. has offshored a lot of its manufacturing, but the company does seem to pump a lot of money into the town in order to be able to attract talent. We ate extraordinarily well in Corning, and it's in a very pretty setting. I don't think it ever had anywhere near the black population of Rochester e.g., so all that stuff never happened there.

    Replies: @hhsiii, @Anon87

    , @profnasty
    @Steve Sailer

    So is Clarence Center.
    What's your point?

    , @36 ulster
    @Steve Sailer

    As are Skaneateles and other towns in the Finger Lakes area. Syracuse, not so much. Once our train entered Buffalo, we seemed to be passing through the Alleyway of America from there to Syracuse--we never made it to Utica, but I believe that the "scenery" was similar.

    Replies: @additionalMike

  13. As a young bright eyed honkie from Detriot, I was incredibly depressed by my first visits to Upstate NY.

    One hears of these storied places and then one visits only to discover that they are exactly like Flint, Pontiac, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, Muskegon, and Bay City – criminal negro infested government parasitic shitholes.

    Kodak? Polaroid? IBM? No different than a thousand others across the Rust Belt. And every single one of them just created a Detriot on a smaller scale.

    The incessant whining of the negro, “Everywhere we go turns into shit” is pretty tedious in its lack of self-awareness. Is there a single successful example of white liberal corporate leaders embracing the negro? Every single time it seems to end badly for everyone except the white liberal (who invariably flees).

    • Agree: Ghost of Bull Moose
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Stan d Mute

    every single one of them just created a Detriot on a smaller scale.

    They didn't. There are slums in Upstate cities. You have slums where you have cities. Even the slums aren't as wrecked and disorderly as Detroit.

    , @S. Anonyia
    @Stan d Mute

    I don't think Poughkeepsie is technically part of the Rust belt but I drove through on an East Coast road trip and stopped for dinner; that place totally sucks, it looks and feels more rundown than many Mississippi Delta towns.

    Replies: @Polistra

  14. It would be good for American blacks to have their own nation.

    A place where they governed themselves, policed themselves, were responsible for themselves, and ideally–absent the whole “racism!” thing, avoid having a welfare state that promotes bad behavior and selection of the worst genes.

    Things only get turned around when people own it–own their own success or failure.

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @AnotherDad

    It would be good for American blacks to have their own nation.

    You have 41 million blacks in this country. There is one 2d tier metropolis where they account for about half the population, a few small metropolitan settlements where they are the majority, and some blocs of rural counties in Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia where they are the majority.

    Replies: @BB

    , @Ghost of Bull Moose
    @AnotherDad

    You mean Haiti? Blacks cannot create a modern, functional state of their own that is not wholly dependent on white charity. It can’t be done.

    Replies: @fredyetagain aka superhonky

  15. Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.

    Yes, focusing on the bottom line rather than activism is surely what doomed this affirmative action company. (And you gotta love the naked NYT editorializing covered by their standard “some say . . .” fig leaf.)

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @Bigdicknick
    @Hypnotoad666

    Also love how they claim racism caused a company created entirely to benefit blacks to fail. It's literally never enough.

  16. @Steve Sailer
    @Abe

    Cooperstown and Ithaca are nice.

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @Jake Barnes, @Hodag, @slumber_j, @profnasty, @36 ulster

    Is the brewer of Maximus Super still in Ithaca?

    • Replies: @Forbes
    @Jim Christian

    F,X. Matt Brewing Co/West End Brewing Co., brewers of Utica Club beer, and Saranac beers and ales.

    They also contract brewed Billy Beer back in the Jimmy Carter era.

    I don't know if Maximus Super is still produced.

    Replies: @Anon87

  17. Its challenges were blamed on a mixture of racism and its reliance on winning contracts from Xerox and Kodak,

    Non sequitur of the day!

    • Replies: @Bigdicknick
    @EdwardM

    This was also the standout sentence for me lol. It's a classic "uh...racism" sentence common in the mainstream press. No need to explain the mechanism by which racism caused the business to fail.

  18. @Steve Sailer
    @Abe

    Cooperstown and Ithaca are nice.

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @Jake Barnes, @Hodag, @slumber_j, @profnasty, @36 ulster

    Even Syracuse, and even within the city limits, was a fine place to grow up through the 80s and 90s. No interest in ever going back, and have hardly visited in a decade. It is a shell of what was already a shell of itself. If it weren’t for the University and the SUNY medical school it would be much worse, which is a terrifying thought.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    @Jake Barnes

    I'm back about four times a year--my mother is still alive.

    There is little reason to go into the city proper, or downtown. The north side (ghetto white) and the south side (ghetto black) are shambles compared to their former non-glory days. It's shocking to drive through parts of the city. Needless to say, there are still some nice neighborhoods.

    Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse have lost 40% of their population since 1950--when I believe Detroit was the 2nd most populous city in the US with the highest per capita income.

    In Syracuse, two non-profits (non-taxpaying) are the largest employers: Upstate Medical University (SUNY) and Syracuse University (private). Gone are the blue collar jobs that fueled the local economy: Carrier (air conditioning and corporate HQ) and GM (Fisher Body), which sustained many local business suppliers. The Chrysler (New Process Gear) plant was sold to the Canadian firm Magna Auto, and if the parking lot is any indication, they employ a fraction of its former UAW workforce, and at non-union wages. General Electric once employed 12,000 at its Electronics Park facility probably fields one-tenth that as now owned by General Dynamics. Bristol-Myers had a research and mfg operation (Bristol Laboratories) which produced 70% of the world's supply of penicillin until early this century. Now, after the destruction of 50 buildings and a half-million sf of facilities, employment drops fron over 2,000 to under 500.

    The downward spiral continues apace as people leave due to high property and income taxes--while college students don't return because there are no jobs. Two-thirds of my suburban HS graduating class found their futures elsewhere. Those who stayed were either professionals, or had a family business or started a business.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  19. Again, consider Sowell’s thesis in Black Rednecks, White Liberals. Black northerners from the old days were pretty well assimilated into the industrious northern culture. Black recruits in WWI from the north tested better on average than white southerners. Syracuse and Rochester’s present-day problems stem from the “upsouth” migration in such numbers that they were able to keep their Scots Borderers culture from the south. If they had come in fewer numbers and gotten the Oak Park effect who’s to say how they might be doing … (even within such innate limits as our host enjoys carping on about)?

    • Disagree: By-tor
    • LOL: 3g4me
  20. My neighbor is a high achieving black guy – he hosts a local tv show. The high achieving black people I know now all vacation every summer on Martha’s Vineyard. It is a huge networking thing.

    Our family also vacations at the beach but we drive to ours. My neighbor and I were chatting over beers one Friday about our various vacations. He said “It is nice just to go somewhere and relax and not deal with any of the bullshit” associated with having to deal with low class black people. Literally the Chris Rock thing.

    The talented tenth is real and are exhausted by the 90%.

    • Thanks: bomag
    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @Hodag

    Nothing new. Rich knigs have been going to the Vineyard for close to 100 years.

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Hodag

    I wonder if the talented tenth are much more likely to marry each other rather than the untalented 90th. Otherwise, regression towards the mean is more likely, and they are more likely than similarly situated Whites to be burdened by useless offspring.

    Replies: @Flip

    , @ia
    @Hodag


    My neighbor is a high achieving black guy – he hosts a local tv show.
     
    What's it called? I would assume it's blackety=black and therefore has a captive audience. Or maybe liberal whites score cheap diversity points by telling one another they watch it?

    The talented tenth is real and are exhausted by the 90%.
     
    You're not thinking. They couldn't do squat without them.
    , @Flip
    @Hodag

    I've run across a few high end blacks in Chicago in business dealings and they live in skyscrapers on the north side, far from the black west and south sides.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @3g4me
    @Hodag

    @18 Hodag: Regression to the mean is a real thing. As are your 'high achieving' black neighbor's cousins, and children's friends, and friends' stepfathers. Sure, sure, he's a unicorn and would have achieved regardless of skin color. And I bet he never even speaks in ebonics among family.

    The amazingly gullible and self-delusional normie.

  21. @Steve Sailer
    @Abe

    Cooperstown and Ithaca are nice.

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @Jake Barnes, @Hodag, @slumber_j, @profnasty, @36 ulster

    I have always wanted to play Leatherstocking but have never been in the region.

  22. So the author of the Times article just assumes, without a scrap of evidence, that poverty and racism are the causes of black failure. Predictable. Stupid, but predictable.

    • Replies: @Joseph Doaks
    @G. Poulin

    "So the author of the Times article just assumes, without a scrap of evidence, that poverty and racism are the causes of black failure. Predictable. Stupid, but predictable."

    Actually, the author undoubtedly is not stupid and knows that there is not a scrap of evidence that poverty and racism causes black failure, but is required to say otherwise because that's what he's paid to do. The destruction of honest journalism is leading to the downfall of this country. The "Fourth Estate" --- bah, humbug!

    , @Art Deco
    @G. Poulin

    It would be pretty nonsensical to say 'poverty' is a 'cause' of anyone's 'failure'. Measures of poverty are measures of people's deficient earnings; it's a manifestation of failure not a cause of it.

    I have an uncle living on the Florida space coast. 'Poverty' as it would have been understood the year he was born (1927) is exceedingly unusual in Rochester and most anywhere else in this country. What you do have is insecurity and disorder in people's lives. You can ameliorate that, but people like Michael Corkery aren't interested, because addressing that does not incorporate injuring people they despise and doesn't incorporate giving people things - at least does not incorporate giving people much more than redistributive agencies are already giving them. It does incorporate enhanced social discipline, but that would involve people Michael Corkery despises (cops) imposing standards on Michael Corkery's mascots (slum blacks) according to commonsensical standards favored by those cops and like-minded people (living yesterday, today, and tomorrow). Cannot have that as it upsets the status-hierarchies Michael Corkery takes for granted as an employee of the Sulzbergers (and a graduate of Brown University).

  23. There’s always Bermuda! The mulatto elite are pretty smart.

    In other news, the search for the Great White Defendant continues:

    US authorities are searching for a Florida woman who went missing during a road trip with her fiancé.

    22-year-old Gabrielle “Gabby” Petito has not spoken to her family since late August, when she was travelling with her boyfriend in Wyoming.

    Police say her boyfriend, Brian Laundrie, 23, who has returned home, is now a person of interest in the case.

    The couple had been documenting their cross-country campervan trip on social media.

    Mr Laundrie returned to their Florida home on 1 September, police say. Ms Petito’s parents reported her missing 10 days later.

    But police say Mr Laundrie is refusing to speak to them about her disappearance.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58579717

  24. @Hodag
    My neighbor is a high achieving black guy - he hosts a local tv show. The high achieving black people I know now all vacation every summer on Martha's Vineyard. It is a huge networking thing.

    Our family also vacations at the beach but we drive to ours. My neighbor and I were chatting over beers one Friday about our various vacations. He said "It is nice just to go somewhere and relax and not deal with any of the bullshit" associated with having to deal with low class black people. Literally the Chris Rock thing.

    The talented tenth is real and are exhausted by the 90%.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Hapalong Cassidy, @ia, @Flip, @3g4me

    Nothing new. Rich knigs have been going to the Vineyard for close to 100 years.

  25. Interesting, not a word about the globalist traitors in Washington who enabled the impoverishment of our country by allowing American industry to ship millions of good jobs overseas. Nope, just those good-for-nothing African freeloaders messing up again, how comforting to know it’s still OK to look down on them.

    • Agree: Gabe Ruth
  26. Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.

    This is a revealing line. Taken to its logical conclusion black identity isn’t compatible with profitability. Basically the activists wanted welfare not assistance in being competitive. They just wanted the appearance of black people being successful.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    @Ed


    Taken to its logical conclusion black identity isn’t compatible with profitability. Basically the activists wanted welfare not assistance in being competitive. They just wanted the appearance of black people being successful.
     
    Isn't that just another aspect of the impact of the repeal of Jim Crow laws; Black businesses could only compete if they had a captive market?
    , @Art Deco
    @Ed

    The justification for circumventing common and garden business finance would be to jump start a successful enterprise and perhaps induce local bankers to modify rules of thumb (in ways consistent with economic efficiency and the advancement of minorities). What you get is companies which remain viable due to patronage. I think the 20% down 30-year mortgage may be a successful innovation jump-started by public agencies (the FHA in this case), but I wouldn't wager you can accomplish something like that all that often.

    The Story of Our Life in race matters is that the establishment allows primary and secondary schools to decay, allows law enforcement to decay, and injures real estate markets with ill-considered planning and zoning ordinances and (in some loci) with rent control. Then they turn around and shovel underprepared students into higher education and cook up cockamamie schemes to 'expand affordable housing', 'create jobs', serve 'at risk' populations &c. And the schemes are henceforth perceived as necessary by patrons and clients alike.

    , @Neuday
    @Ed


    They just wanted the appearance of black people being successful.
     
    Aren't we sacrificing our nation, our children, all of Western Civilization, for exactly this?
  27. @Hypnotoad666

    Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.
     
    Yes, focusing on the bottom line rather than activism is surely what doomed this affirmative action company. (And you gotta love the naked NYT editorializing covered by their standard "some say . . ." fig leaf.)

    Replies: @Bigdicknick

    Also love how they claim racism caused a company created entirely to benefit blacks to fail. It’s literally never enough.

  28. @Steve Sailer
    @Abe

    Cooperstown and Ithaca are nice.

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @Jake Barnes, @Hodag, @slumber_j, @profnasty, @36 ulster

    Corning’s nice too–at least the downtown and the Glass Museum, which I recommend highly.

    We were there this spring on the way back to CT from a road trip to Cincinnati: not as prosperous a town as it should be, as I imagine Corning Inc. has offshored a lot of its manufacturing, but the company does seem to pump a lot of money into the town in order to be able to attract talent. We ate extraordinarily well in Corning, and it’s in a very pretty setting. I don’t think it ever had anywhere near the black population of Rochester e.g., so all that stuff never happened there.

    • Replies: @hhsiii
    @slumber_j

    We went to Corning when my daughter was 5 about 7 years ago. It’s a pretty nice little town. Confluence of the Chenango and Chemung.

    Replies: @hhsiii

    , @Anon87
    @slumber_j

    They have offshored quite a bit, but Gorilla Glass really saved them from hitting the skids as bad as Kodak and Xerox have.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  29. @Ed

    Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.
     
    This is a revealing line. Taken to its logical conclusion black identity isn’t compatible with profitability. Basically the activists wanted welfare not assistance in being competitive. They just wanted the appearance of black people being successful.

    Replies: @Bill Jones, @Art Deco, @Neuday

    Taken to its logical conclusion black identity isn’t compatible with profitability. Basically the activists wanted welfare not assistance in being competitive. They just wanted the appearance of black people being successful.

    Isn’t that just another aspect of the impact of the repeal of Jim Crow laws; Black businesses could only compete if they had a captive market?

    • Agree: Ben tillman
  30. I’ll demur here. Syracuse has a satisfactory quality of life; it’s just economically somnambulant.

    Rochester has all kinds of problems you do not see in Syracuse. It’s main problem, summarized is that the political class is addicted to business-as-usual and the electorate is content with that so long as their property taxes aren’t going up. The business sectors as far as I can see are composed of three sorts: businesses too modest to have much influence above and beyond the scale of a suburban township, businesses pre-occupied with their affairs and divorced from the political process in town (I think Paychex might be in that category), and businesses who re-inforce the tendencies of the political class.

    Note the sort of people the Democratic Party slates for public office: you end up with municipal councils chock-a-block with schoolteachers, social workers, and lawyers. What that gets you is the Fast Ferry disaster, wherein Mayor William Johnson (a lapsed social worker) fancied he was promoting ‘an aggressive economic development strategy’ with a showy tourism promotion scheme. A dear friend of mine in Rochester said at the time that given the price of the ticket, he’d take a ride on the Fast Ferry once for the novelty. He called it; it went under in short order in a manner that left the city government with some comical clean up.

    Note New York City’s successful crime control strategies. The reaction of Monroe County’s politicians was nada. You had four candidates for mayor in 2005, and only one (John Parinello, the one who had no chance to win) took an interest in New York City’s work at all (and his stated plans were rather vague). The mayor elected was Robert Duffy, Johnson’s personal choice, and a lapsed police officer. Didn’t do any good. The homicide rate was higher during his tenure than it was before or after. A critic of Duffy’s said his modus operandi was to hire a consultant to study something, consequent to which they’d receive a report which endorsed business as usual or a report which would be ignored.

    Meanwhile, the county government is generally in the hands of the Republicans. For 12 years, the county executive was one Maggie Brooks, a former TV reporter. Her shtick was that your property taxes would never go up, and most of the rent-free space in her head was devoted to dreaming up accounting shell-games so she could say she ‘kept’ her promise. That the core city in the county had a homicide rate 2.4x that of Utica and 3.7x that of New York City did not interest her.

    Wm. Johnson wanted some local services transferred from the municipal government to the county government, which is a sensible idea. Maggie Brooks would have none of it. Might complicate her shell games. Service consolidation is an idea to which suburban electorates have had a neuralgic reaction. The last attempt to set up a county police department went down to a 3-1 defeat (in part due to exceedingly poor salesmanship on the part of the then-mayor and then county manager).

    Demographics in the city being how they are, the body of officeholders in the core city is increasingly black. With Johnson’s retirement, the dean of the local black pols has been one David Gantt. Lovely Warren, a mediocre local lawyer, was installed in the mayor’s chair in 2013 consequent to Gantt’s patronage. Black pols are commonly interested in patronage and gestures of deference, and their electorates are content with that. Actually repairing anything doesn’t interest them. The big problem you have is quality of life issues in the core city in part consequent to having an understaffed police force which does not use best practices. (During my last years, ineffectual initiatives like neighborhood watch and show pieces mounted officers were promoted by the department). So, what’s the priority of public discussion? Some guy tripping on PCP died during an attempt to place him under arrest for civil commitment. (His family had called the police). The reaction will ensure the department is even more ineffectual than it has been heretofore, as officers head back to the doughnut shop to avoid career-ender controversies.

    Lovely Warren’s a crook from a family of crooks, and that’s generated enough embarrassment to get her blown out of office. Not holding out any hope for her successor, bar that he’s passably likely to get through his term without his wife being indicted for drug-trafficking.

    The city schools stink on ice. They have for about 60 years now. Older residents of my old neighborhood could date to the year when disciplinary problems spun out of control at the neighborhood elementary (1962).

    The Genesee Valley’s adapted passably to the evaporation of Eastman Kodak (which once directly employed 13% of the population therein). The suburbs have problems you see everywhere – a deficit of walkable neighborhoods, ugly commercial strips everywhere, and traffic congestion. There are some charming redoubts; you can’t afford a house in those places.

    And, of course, New York State in it’s wisdom has destroyed the autonomy of local government by larding the county governments and school districts with obligations to provide an array of funded and unfunded mandates. These aren’t small expenditures. When I was involved in local politics a while back, about 3/4 of the county budget was devoted to line items over which local elected officials had next-to-no discretion.

    / rant off.

    • Replies: @Ed
    @Art Deco

    I went to the Univ of Rochester for business school. I’ve lived in the Bronx and Baltimore. Spent a summer in Detroit. Rochester was easily the most depressed city. Detroit was bad too but the downtown wasn’t as far gone as Rochester’s even when I was there in the early 2000s.

    I was last in Rochester in ‘18 and the downtown had gotten worse. Whole buildings taken over by vagrants. The 19th ward is a waste land. The Univ of Rochester tried to develop some areas around the school with mixed success. When I visited there were already noticeable vacancies in the new developments.

    The Rochester suburbs are nice though.

    , @bomag
    @Art Deco

    Thanks.

    Much here is repeated around the country: those interested in public office are too often attracted by the flash and graft.


    When I was involved in local politics a while back, about 3/4 of the county budget was devoted to line items over which local elected officials had next-to-no discretion.
     
    That's a thing; so much is bound up in federal rules and money. And the feds now want us all to sit around putting condoms on bananas while chanting D, I, & E propaganda.

    Also on this thread, I wanted to work in the obligatory quip that Africa Wins Again.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @JMcG
    @Art Deco

    Thank you Art for that thoughtful comment. You must surely realize that no suburb in its right mind would willingly consolidate with a municipal core that is controlled by blacks. Indeed, the opposite holds true in places like Atlanta and Birmingham.
    I suspect we might be headed for city structures more like that of Paris. An upscale core, a dilapidated inner ring, and then a quick fade to Le France Profonde. Well, just outside that dilapidated inner ring will be a layer of subcontinental sand northeast Asians, at least until such time as their mother countries become more attractive than what’s left of the USA.

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Art Deco


    Syracuse has a satisfactory quality of life...
     
    Downtown Syracuse also has Al's Wine & Whiskey Lounge, which has a ludicrous selection of whiskies on hand.

    http://www.alswineandwhiskey.com/
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Art Deco


    That the core city in the county had a homicide rate 2.4x that of Utica and 3.7x that of New York City did not interest her.
     
    Arlington House, the publishing arm of the Conservative Book Club (or perhaps it was vice versa), put out a book in the 1970s called America's 50 Safest Cities, by David Franke. Utica was #4, Rome #2, making Oneida County perhaps the safest urban county in the land. IIRC, nine of the ten safest cities were in New York or Wisconsin. Lake effect?

    The book was honest. Utica's low crime rate was attributed to the fact that there was nothing left to steal.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  31. Thanks.

    An optimist thinks the glass is half full. A pessimist thinks the glass is half empty.

    A realist notices that the glass is half empty because water is seeping out of a crack in the bottom of the glass.

    I’ve lived in the suburbs of Rochester about half my life. Went to School Without Walls (alternative school in the city for misfits and rebels) back in the day when it was the third floor of what’s now the Harro East building. So I know the city with a bit of an outsider’s perspective.

    The quality of life in the suburbs of Rochester can be exceptionally high. Many people downplay the merits of the area but keep coming back. The area also has chronic problems that don’t yield to the programs and policies of well-meaning liberals with a pretty theory. The problems are concentrated in minority areas of the city–all the pathologies of the urban underclass are there.

    = – = – = – =

    It’s about one calendar year since a gunfight (perhaps 3 or 4 shooters) at a party near the Public Market in the city led to the deaths of two young adults. The two young people, from all accounts, seemed to be good kids, not trouble-makers or dead-end-kids. Three separate parties grew into a big gathering and people couldn’t behave themselves and just chill.

    Such events are exceptional–not an everyday event in the Rochester area. There were no immediate arrests, despite dozens of witnesses.

    Captain Frank Umbrino at RPD lost his cool and said what was on his mind about bail reform and the non-enforcement of gun laws on the books. Start at around 11:00 on the video.

    I might post more later. As a general principle, I would say that cities that are similar to Rochester in terms of size and demography and historical development might be Hartford CT and Milwaukee WI. We’re not East St. Louis or Gary IN but there’s something wrong and it’s been going on for decades.

    More money won’t solve the problem. More money might be necessary –more money is not sufficient.

    • Thanks: notsaying
    • Replies: @notsaying
    @charles w abbott

    I would line to hear more. I hope you come back and add to what you have already said. We need to hear more from people like this police captain. I would also love to hear what the good people trapped in these neighborhoods have to say. Yes, they are sick of things, as they should be. Are they willing to see the guys doing this stuff sent to prison even when they are the sons and brothers of people they know?

    Replies: @charles w abbott

    , @Inquiring Mind
    @charles w abbott

    40 rounds, 14 wounded, 2 dead.

    Replies: @charles w abbott

    , @Dnought
    @charles w abbott

    There was also the horrifying incident back in March where two black teens killed a 53 year old disabled guy by lighting him on fire.

    Umbrino had a bit to say about that too. Guy seems almost based.


    Replies: @charles w abbott, @Inquiring Mind

  32. @Ed

    Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.
     
    This is a revealing line. Taken to its logical conclusion black identity isn’t compatible with profitability. Basically the activists wanted welfare not assistance in being competitive. They just wanted the appearance of black people being successful.

    Replies: @Bill Jones, @Art Deco, @Neuday

    The justification for circumventing common and garden business finance would be to jump start a successful enterprise and perhaps induce local bankers to modify rules of thumb (in ways consistent with economic efficiency and the advancement of minorities). What you get is companies which remain viable due to patronage. I think the 20% down 30-year mortgage may be a successful innovation jump-started by public agencies (the FHA in this case), but I wouldn’t wager you can accomplish something like that all that often.

    The Story of Our Life in race matters is that the establishment allows primary and secondary schools to decay, allows law enforcement to decay, and injures real estate markets with ill-considered planning and zoning ordinances and (in some loci) with rent control. Then they turn around and shovel underprepared students into higher education and cook up cockamamie schemes to ‘expand affordable housing’, ‘create jobs’, serve ‘at risk’ populations &c. And the schemes are henceforth perceived as necessary by patrons and clients alike.

    • Agree: Ed, JMcG
  33. @Hodag
    My neighbor is a high achieving black guy - he hosts a local tv show. The high achieving black people I know now all vacation every summer on Martha's Vineyard. It is a huge networking thing.

    Our family also vacations at the beach but we drive to ours. My neighbor and I were chatting over beers one Friday about our various vacations. He said "It is nice just to go somewhere and relax and not deal with any of the bullshit" associated with having to deal with low class black people. Literally the Chris Rock thing.

    The talented tenth is real and are exhausted by the 90%.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Hapalong Cassidy, @ia, @Flip, @3g4me

    I wonder if the talented tenth are much more likely to marry each other rather than the untalented 90th. Otherwise, regression towards the mean is more likely, and they are more likely than similarly situated Whites to be burdened by useless offspring.

    • Replies: @Flip
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    I think they do. I went to high school with a black guy from a fancy background and he told me about Jack and Jill, which is an elite black social group.

  34. @Art Deco
    I'll demur here. Syracuse has a satisfactory quality of life; it's just economically somnambulant.

    Rochester has all kinds of problems you do not see in Syracuse. It's main problem, summarized is that the political class is addicted to business-as-usual and the electorate is content with that so long as their property taxes aren't going up. The business sectors as far as I can see are composed of three sorts: businesses too modest to have much influence above and beyond the scale of a suburban township, businesses pre-occupied with their affairs and divorced from the political process in town (I think Paychex might be in that category), and businesses who re-inforce the tendencies of the political class.

    Note the sort of people the Democratic Party slates for public office: you end up with municipal councils chock-a-block with schoolteachers, social workers, and lawyers. What that gets you is the Fast Ferry disaster, wherein Mayor William Johnson (a lapsed social worker) fancied he was promoting 'an aggressive economic development strategy' with a showy tourism promotion scheme. A dear friend of mine in Rochester said at the time that given the price of the ticket, he'd take a ride on the Fast Ferry once for the novelty. He called it; it went under in short order in a manner that left the city government with some comical clean up.

    Note New York City's successful crime control strategies. The reaction of Monroe County's politicians was nada. You had four candidates for mayor in 2005, and only one (John Parinello, the one who had no chance to win) took an interest in New York City's work at all (and his stated plans were rather vague). The mayor elected was Robert Duffy, Johnson's personal choice, and a lapsed police officer. Didn't do any good. The homicide rate was higher during his tenure than it was before or after. A critic of Duffy's said his modus operandi was to hire a consultant to study something, consequent to which they'd receive a report which endorsed business as usual or a report which would be ignored.

    Meanwhile, the county government is generally in the hands of the Republicans. For 12 years, the county executive was one Maggie Brooks, a former TV reporter. Her shtick was that your property taxes would never go up, and most of the rent-free space in her head was devoted to dreaming up accounting shell-games so she could say she 'kept' her promise. That the core city in the county had a homicide rate 2.4x that of Utica and 3.7x that of New York City did not interest her.

    Wm. Johnson wanted some local services transferred from the municipal government to the county government, which is a sensible idea. Maggie Brooks would have none of it. Might complicate her shell games. Service consolidation is an idea to which suburban electorates have had a neuralgic reaction. The last attempt to set up a county police department went down to a 3-1 defeat (in part due to exceedingly poor salesmanship on the part of the then-mayor and then county manager).

    Demographics in the city being how they are, the body of officeholders in the core city is increasingly black. With Johnson's retirement, the dean of the local black pols has been one David Gantt. Lovely Warren, a mediocre local lawyer, was installed in the mayor's chair in 2013 consequent to Gantt's patronage. Black pols are commonly interested in patronage and gestures of deference, and their electorates are content with that. Actually repairing anything doesn't interest them. The big problem you have is quality of life issues in the core city in part consequent to having an understaffed police force which does not use best practices. (During my last years, ineffectual initiatives like neighborhood watch and show pieces mounted officers were promoted by the department). So, what's the priority of public discussion? Some guy tripping on PCP died during an attempt to place him under arrest for civil commitment. (His family had called the police). The reaction will ensure the department is even more ineffectual than it has been heretofore, as officers head back to the doughnut shop to avoid career-ender controversies.

    Lovely Warren's a crook from a family of crooks, and that's generated enough embarrassment to get her blown out of office. Not holding out any hope for her successor, bar that he's passably likely to get through his term without his wife being indicted for drug-trafficking.

    The city schools stink on ice. They have for about 60 years now. Older residents of my old neighborhood could date to the year when disciplinary problems spun out of control at the neighborhood elementary (1962).

    The Genesee Valley's adapted passably to the evaporation of Eastman Kodak (which once directly employed 13% of the population therein). The suburbs have problems you see everywhere - a deficit of walkable neighborhoods, ugly commercial strips everywhere, and traffic congestion. There are some charming redoubts; you can't afford a house in those places.

    And, of course, New York State in it's wisdom has destroyed the autonomy of local government by larding the county governments and school districts with obligations to provide an array of funded and unfunded mandates. These aren't small expenditures. When I was involved in local politics a while back, about 3/4 of the county budget was devoted to line items over which local elected officials had next-to-no discretion.


    / rant off.

    Replies: @Ed, @bomag, @JMcG, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Reg Cæsar

    I went to the Univ of Rochester for business school. I’ve lived in the Bronx and Baltimore. Spent a summer in Detroit. Rochester was easily the most depressed city. Detroit was bad too but the downtown wasn’t as far gone as Rochester’s even when I was there in the early 2000s.

    I was last in Rochester in ‘18 and the downtown had gotten worse. Whole buildings taken over by vagrants. The 19th ward is a waste land. The Univ of Rochester tried to develop some areas around the school with mixed success. When I visited there were already noticeable vacancies in the new developments.

    The Rochester suburbs are nice though.

  35. @Art Deco
    I'll demur here. Syracuse has a satisfactory quality of life; it's just economically somnambulant.

    Rochester has all kinds of problems you do not see in Syracuse. It's main problem, summarized is that the political class is addicted to business-as-usual and the electorate is content with that so long as their property taxes aren't going up. The business sectors as far as I can see are composed of three sorts: businesses too modest to have much influence above and beyond the scale of a suburban township, businesses pre-occupied with their affairs and divorced from the political process in town (I think Paychex might be in that category), and businesses who re-inforce the tendencies of the political class.

    Note the sort of people the Democratic Party slates for public office: you end up with municipal councils chock-a-block with schoolteachers, social workers, and lawyers. What that gets you is the Fast Ferry disaster, wherein Mayor William Johnson (a lapsed social worker) fancied he was promoting 'an aggressive economic development strategy' with a showy tourism promotion scheme. A dear friend of mine in Rochester said at the time that given the price of the ticket, he'd take a ride on the Fast Ferry once for the novelty. He called it; it went under in short order in a manner that left the city government with some comical clean up.

    Note New York City's successful crime control strategies. The reaction of Monroe County's politicians was nada. You had four candidates for mayor in 2005, and only one (John Parinello, the one who had no chance to win) took an interest in New York City's work at all (and his stated plans were rather vague). The mayor elected was Robert Duffy, Johnson's personal choice, and a lapsed police officer. Didn't do any good. The homicide rate was higher during his tenure than it was before or after. A critic of Duffy's said his modus operandi was to hire a consultant to study something, consequent to which they'd receive a report which endorsed business as usual or a report which would be ignored.

    Meanwhile, the county government is generally in the hands of the Republicans. For 12 years, the county executive was one Maggie Brooks, a former TV reporter. Her shtick was that your property taxes would never go up, and most of the rent-free space in her head was devoted to dreaming up accounting shell-games so she could say she 'kept' her promise. That the core city in the county had a homicide rate 2.4x that of Utica and 3.7x that of New York City did not interest her.

    Wm. Johnson wanted some local services transferred from the municipal government to the county government, which is a sensible idea. Maggie Brooks would have none of it. Might complicate her shell games. Service consolidation is an idea to which suburban electorates have had a neuralgic reaction. The last attempt to set up a county police department went down to a 3-1 defeat (in part due to exceedingly poor salesmanship on the part of the then-mayor and then county manager).

    Demographics in the city being how they are, the body of officeholders in the core city is increasingly black. With Johnson's retirement, the dean of the local black pols has been one David Gantt. Lovely Warren, a mediocre local lawyer, was installed in the mayor's chair in 2013 consequent to Gantt's patronage. Black pols are commonly interested in patronage and gestures of deference, and their electorates are content with that. Actually repairing anything doesn't interest them. The big problem you have is quality of life issues in the core city in part consequent to having an understaffed police force which does not use best practices. (During my last years, ineffectual initiatives like neighborhood watch and show pieces mounted officers were promoted by the department). So, what's the priority of public discussion? Some guy tripping on PCP died during an attempt to place him under arrest for civil commitment. (His family had called the police). The reaction will ensure the department is even more ineffectual than it has been heretofore, as officers head back to the doughnut shop to avoid career-ender controversies.

    Lovely Warren's a crook from a family of crooks, and that's generated enough embarrassment to get her blown out of office. Not holding out any hope for her successor, bar that he's passably likely to get through his term without his wife being indicted for drug-trafficking.

    The city schools stink on ice. They have for about 60 years now. Older residents of my old neighborhood could date to the year when disciplinary problems spun out of control at the neighborhood elementary (1962).

    The Genesee Valley's adapted passably to the evaporation of Eastman Kodak (which once directly employed 13% of the population therein). The suburbs have problems you see everywhere - a deficit of walkable neighborhoods, ugly commercial strips everywhere, and traffic congestion. There are some charming redoubts; you can't afford a house in those places.

    And, of course, New York State in it's wisdom has destroyed the autonomy of local government by larding the county governments and school districts with obligations to provide an array of funded and unfunded mandates. These aren't small expenditures. When I was involved in local politics a while back, about 3/4 of the county budget was devoted to line items over which local elected officials had next-to-no discretion.


    / rant off.

    Replies: @Ed, @bomag, @JMcG, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Reg Cæsar

    Thanks.

    Much here is repeated around the country: those interested in public office are too often attracted by the flash and graft.

    When I was involved in local politics a while back, about 3/4 of the county budget was devoted to line items over which local elected officials had next-to-no discretion.

    That’s a thing; so much is bound up in federal rules and money. And the feds now want us all to sit around putting condoms on bananas while chanting D, I, & E propaganda.

    Also on this thread, I wanted to work in the obligatory quip that Africa Wins Again.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @bomag

    Federal rules aren't helpful, but it's mostly state rules which are the problem. Instead of sorting responsibilities and general revenues between different levels of government, the state during the 1960s gave special-purpose grants to county governments along with a menu of mandated functions. It's a big mess. There's no interest in state government in cleaning up the mess.

    I think if they were sensible, you'd have a set of state welfare departments which would take responsibility for Medicaid, for hands-on services (including custodial care) for the retarded and the insane, and for auditing custodial care provided by various parties (over and above what the health department examines). The state Labor Department would have branch offices where you could get referrals, apply for unemployment comp, and apply for workman's comp. Counties would have one department responsible for child protective, elder protective, and foster care and would have another department for purely local initiatives and for optional federally-funded miscellany like the Office for the Aging. Specialized state grant programs to local governments would be replaced with general revenue sharing distributed according to formulae and philanthropic agencies would be told to rely on private donations. Also, I suspect if you stopped subsidizing public housing from above, local governments would see fit to liquidate the residue of projects they currently operate.

  36. @Ed

    Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.
     
    This is a revealing line. Taken to its logical conclusion black identity isn’t compatible with profitability. Basically the activists wanted welfare not assistance in being competitive. They just wanted the appearance of black people being successful.

    Replies: @Bill Jones, @Art Deco, @Neuday

    They just wanted the appearance of black people being successful.

    Aren’t we sacrificing our nation, our children, all of Western Civilization, for exactly this?

  37. “Johnson wanted some local services transferred from the municipal government to the county government, which is a sensible idea.”

    Overall a great comment & analysis, Mr. Deco, but I must disagree with you there. Failing Dem cities will always try to pass off some of their obligations to the ‘burbs, because that is where the money and the honkies are. Camel’s nose under the tent, etc. The eventual goal is consolidation and political control of the suburbs by the Party and its legion of Black voters. Cuomo II tried to force this on Syracuse and Onondaga County, and neither the Mayor nor the county government would agree, which pissed him off mightily. True to form, he ranted publicly about this.

    There will be other opportunities, of course, and the consolidation may actually happen. Syracuse was starting to show some vitality during the Trump years (e.g., a lot of construction and refurb downtown), but is now sliding back down as a result of COVID and investor caution/fear. If the Dems can attain control of the County government, they will move quickly to consolidate, at which point I will move quickly, too. Like the Road Runner.
    Beep beep.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @additionalMike

    Overall a great comment & analysis, Mr. Deco, but I must disagree with you there. Failing Dem cities will always try to pass off some of their obligations to the ‘burbs, because that is where the money and the honkies are. Camel’s nose under the tent, etc. The eventual goal is consolidation and political control of the suburbs by the Party and its legion of Black voters. Cuomo II tried to force this on Syracuse and Onondaga County, and neither the Mayor nor the county government would agree, which pissed him off mightily. True to form, he ranted publicly about this.

    Vesting police services in municipal government is a convention, not an outgrown of some moral imperative. Up until 1924, city boundaries in New York followed advances in settlement. After that, you had fixed boundaries and city-settlements distributed over a number of municipalities. About 90% of the densely settled core of Monroe County was in the city in 1925, so it was sensible to have a police department so bounded and rely on sheriff's patrols in the rest of the county. It's not sensible when you have tract-development extending over 14 municipalities.

    The Democratic Party cannot take control of county governments or suburban governments by transferring service provision from municipalities to counties. They can only do so through gaining majorities in those counties or in those suburbs. Blacks account for 14% of the population of Monroe County and 9% of Onondaga County and they are concentrated in the core city in both counties, so they're not going to be much help in building a Democratic electoral base in the suburban townships in either county.

    Replies: @additionalMike

  38. @Steve Sailer
    @Abe

    Cooperstown and Ithaca are nice.

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @Jake Barnes, @Hodag, @slumber_j, @profnasty, @36 ulster

    So is Clarence Center.
    What’s your point?

  39. @Abe
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VYTg4GY9SA4

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @profnasty, @anonymous

    Benedict Arnold fought here baby!
    Couldn’t stop laughing.
    They should put up a giant statue.
    He had it right.

  40. @Stan d Mute
    As a young bright eyed honkie from Detriot, I was incredibly depressed by my first visits to Upstate NY.

    One hears of these storied places and then one visits only to discover that they are exactly like Flint, Pontiac, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, Muskegon, and Bay City - criminal negro infested government parasitic shitholes.

    Kodak? Polaroid? IBM? No different than a thousand others across the Rust Belt. And every single one of them just created a Detriot on a smaller scale.

    The incessant whining of the negro, “Everywhere we go turns into shit” is pretty tedious in its lack of self-awareness. Is there a single successful example of white liberal corporate leaders embracing the negro? Every single time it seems to end badly for everyone except the white liberal (who invariably flees).

    Replies: @Art Deco, @S. Anonyia

    every single one of them just created a Detriot on a smaller scale.

    They didn’t. There are slums in Upstate cities. You have slums where you have cities. Even the slums aren’t as wrecked and disorderly as Detroit.

  41. @AnotherDad
    It would be good for American blacks to have their own nation.

    A place where they governed themselves, policed themselves, were responsible for themselves, and ideally--absent the whole "racism!" thing, avoid having a welfare state that promotes bad behavior and selection of the worst genes.

    Things only get turned around when people own it--own their own success or failure.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Ghost of Bull Moose

    It would be good for American blacks to have their own nation.

    You have 41 million blacks in this country. There is one 2d tier metropolis where they account for about half the population, a few small metropolitan settlements where they are the majority, and some blocs of rural counties in Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia where they are the majority.

    • Replies: @BB
    @Art Deco

    350 million is too big for any democratic nation with wildly divergent populations and interests. A nation this big and diverse cannot be governed gently from the center - the government cannot make you feel it represents you. We need to either restore some local sovereignty or split up. Otherwise everyone, white and black and whatever, is going to feel oppressed by anyone that wins. If we do not figure this out, I see very bad things ahead. The country as it is organized has run its course.

  42. @additionalMike
    "Johnson wanted some local services transferred from the municipal government to the county government, which is a sensible idea."

    Overall a great comment & analysis, Mr. Deco, but I must disagree with you there. Failing Dem cities will always try to pass off some of their obligations to the 'burbs, because that is where the money and the honkies are. Camel's nose under the tent, etc. The eventual goal is consolidation and political control of the suburbs by the Party and its legion of Black voters. Cuomo II tried to force this on Syracuse and Onondaga County, and neither the Mayor nor the county government would agree, which pissed him off mightily. True to form, he ranted publicly about this.

    There will be other opportunities, of course, and the consolidation may actually happen. Syracuse was starting to show some vitality during the Trump years (e.g., a lot of construction and refurb downtown), but is now sliding back down as a result of COVID and investor caution/fear. If the Dems can attain control of the County government, they will move quickly to consolidate, at which point I will move quickly, too. Like the Road Runner.
    Beep beep.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Overall a great comment & analysis, Mr. Deco, but I must disagree with you there. Failing Dem cities will always try to pass off some of their obligations to the ‘burbs, because that is where the money and the honkies are. Camel’s nose under the tent, etc. The eventual goal is consolidation and political control of the suburbs by the Party and its legion of Black voters. Cuomo II tried to force this on Syracuse and Onondaga County, and neither the Mayor nor the county government would agree, which pissed him off mightily. True to form, he ranted publicly about this.

    Vesting police services in municipal government is a convention, not an outgrown of some moral imperative. Up until 1924, city boundaries in New York followed advances in settlement. After that, you had fixed boundaries and city-settlements distributed over a number of municipalities. About 90% of the densely settled core of Monroe County was in the city in 1925, so it was sensible to have a police department so bounded and rely on sheriff’s patrols in the rest of the county. It’s not sensible when you have tract-development extending over 14 municipalities.

    The Democratic Party cannot take control of county governments or suburban governments by transferring service provision from municipalities to counties. They can only do so through gaining majorities in those counties or in those suburbs. Blacks account for 14% of the population of Monroe County and 9% of Onondaga County and they are concentrated in the core city in both counties, so they’re not going to be much help in building a Democratic electoral base in the suburban townships in either county.

    • Replies: @additionalMike
    @Art Deco

    "The Democratic Party cannot take control of county governments or suburban governments by transferring service provision from municipalities to counties."
    Agree that they cannot "take control" thereby. Perhaps I was not clear.

    Transferring functions certainly has a surface appeal. But! I believe that, in the political world, this is an attempt to get the 'burbs to foot the bill for a failing city. In my experience, local governments are perfectly happy to have service agencies such as law enforcement, which arguably would be more efficiently provided by e.g., a county, so long as they can staff these agencies with their political supporters, friends & family (the Civil Service Law only goes so far, you know). No politician will ever give up the opportunity for patronage for mere efficiency, unless they are desperate, and see an opportunity to exploit the deal for their own benefit, e.g., by fiddling with the formula by which a municipality compensates the county for providing services.

    Regarding consolidation, I live in the 'burbs because I do not want any connection at all, to the extent this is possible, with a municipality with expensive, failing schools, 15 year-old gangbangers shooting and stabbing each other, and "no-go" areas for White people. I believe, and you apparently disagree, that shared services is a first step towards consolidation.
    Well, OK, we can agree to disagree.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  43. @Abe
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VYTg4GY9SA4

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @profnasty, @anonymous

    That was beautiful

    Very clever.

  44. Richard Reeves book _The dream hoarders_ is worth reading. His basic claim is that the top 20% has carved out a nice life and made things harder for everyone else. This can be analyzed in terms of class, without introducing race. The book is published by Brookings.

    = – = – = – =

    A lot of what ails Rochester is driven by “producer interests.” The Rochester City Schools probably don’t serve the students so much as they serve various “producer interests,” including all of the workers who need a steady job with benefits.

    A consequence is that teaching in the city schools can provide enough income to live in the suburbs and avoid sending your children to the city schools. I think I have seen the figures for the percentage of public school teachers in the City of Rochester who live in the suburbs. It’s pretty high. And the commutes are short–it’s only about 4 miles from downtown Rochester to the city line. Half the county’s population doesn’t live in the city.

    = – = – = – =

    In terms of general reading on the experience of Black Americans in the Yankee North, I am fond of Gene Dattel’s book _Reckoning with Race_ , published by Encounter. I had to buy my own copy online since what the Monroe County Library system (generally very respectable system) has acquired here is dozens of books on race apparently influenced by CRT and similar fashions. The grift and the correct opinion of the woke makes it harder to find heterodox opinions, even if they might be accurate.

    Dattel spends considerable time discussing examples from Connecticut, since he attended Yale after leaving Mississippi

    https://www.encounterbooks.com/books/reckoning-with-race/

    = – = – = – =

    Commenter Art Deco’s cynicism is well founded–what has come close to ruining Rochester is dozens of little grifts and scams and rackets and special interests. Not all of them are run by evil geniuses. I expect that there are many hard working well meaning professionals who are certain that they are working hard and on the right track, and that no one else can improve upon what they are doing. We just need to try harder, and to put in more money.

    The net result is public institutions that don’t function well, difficulty starting new businesses, “incentive traps” that make it tempting to avoid working one’s ass off rather than looking for means-teasted benefits, and various plausible projects to repair the consequences of the poor business climate. Add to that well-meaning liberal pieties that whatever happens to the Black Americans who came North is not their own fault, but rather society has failed them. And society owes them something. All this adds up.

    I can’t say I blame Black Rochesterians if they are pissed at smug white suburbanites. The question is who’s to blame for what, and who’s responsible for fixing what? It’s complex. Given the amount of dysfunction I’d say many people are actually pretty friendly and courteous across the lines of race and class. And we’re excited about the Bills this season.

    My guess is that lots of professions involve drinking the Kool-aid ™. Once you get a steady public sector job you think it’s essential and everyone you serve needs what you provide. Then you just need more money to provide it better. Why not let kids in high school drop out if they aren’t learning anything? Producer interests. How can you maximize the number of teacher jobs to retirement if the kids are working full time day jobs and dropped out of school last year?

    Albert O. Hirschman’s classic _Exit voice and loyalty_ is still worth reading.

    Now let me go read the NYT article before I keep opinionating

    • Thanks: Gabe Ruth
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @charles w abbott

    Thanks.

  45. @Hodag
    My neighbor is a high achieving black guy - he hosts a local tv show. The high achieving black people I know now all vacation every summer on Martha's Vineyard. It is a huge networking thing.

    Our family also vacations at the beach but we drive to ours. My neighbor and I were chatting over beers one Friday about our various vacations. He said "It is nice just to go somewhere and relax and not deal with any of the bullshit" associated with having to deal with low class black people. Literally the Chris Rock thing.

    The talented tenth is real and are exhausted by the 90%.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Hapalong Cassidy, @ia, @Flip, @3g4me

    My neighbor is a high achieving black guy – he hosts a local tv show.

    What’s it called? I would assume it’s blackety=black and therefore has a captive audience. Or maybe liberal whites score cheap diversity points by telling one another they watch it?

    The talented tenth is real and are exhausted by the 90%.

    You’re not thinking. They couldn’t do squat without them.

    • Agree: Nicholas Stix
  46. @Polistra
    Rochester has arguably the worst weather of any city in the country. It needs all the help it can get. Unfortunately it's not getting any.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Winters are harsher farther inland in New York. That aside, you go out Midwest and you get hit with ‘continentality’ – baking in the summer (w/ tornados) and blizzards in the winter. The rap on Rochester is that it’s overcast most of the time. Summertime at night is sweet.

    • Replies: @charles w abbott
    @Art Deco

    Summertime even during the day is nice in Rochester much of the time.

    The summer days can be hot but they are not uniformly oppressive, and often it is pleasantly cool at night.

    It's definitely not the Corn Belt. The summers are far less oppressive than the corn / soybean Midwest of Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, etc. And you can tell from the farm crops--we are in a dairy / vegetable belt, with orchards along Lake Ontario, vegetables in the "muck lands," some grapes in the wine country, and it gets more and more to dairying as you move south into the Southern Tier and away from the Finger Lakes proper.

    It's my guess that many people don't leave Rochester in the summer except to go boating or camping elsewhere in NYState.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    , @Polistra
    @Art Deco

    Rochester is the worst city in the country. You must love it!

    https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/annual-snowfall-by-city.php

    Replies: @Dnought, @syonredux

  47. @AnotherDad
    It would be good for American blacks to have their own nation.

    A place where they governed themselves, policed themselves, were responsible for themselves, and ideally--absent the whole "racism!" thing, avoid having a welfare state that promotes bad behavior and selection of the worst genes.

    Things only get turned around when people own it--own their own success or failure.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Ghost of Bull Moose

    You mean Haiti? Blacks cannot create a modern, functional state of their own that is not wholly dependent on white charity. It can’t be done.

    • Replies: @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    @Ghost of Bull Moose


    You mean Haiti? Blacks cannot create a modern, functional state of their own that is not wholly dependent on white charity. It can’t be done.
     
    I would tend to agree, but whether or not they can is irrelevant. The point is that we must separate from them. What they are or are not able to accomplish post-separation is none of my business.
  48. @bomag
    @Art Deco

    Thanks.

    Much here is repeated around the country: those interested in public office are too often attracted by the flash and graft.


    When I was involved in local politics a while back, about 3/4 of the county budget was devoted to line items over which local elected officials had next-to-no discretion.
     
    That's a thing; so much is bound up in federal rules and money. And the feds now want us all to sit around putting condoms on bananas while chanting D, I, & E propaganda.

    Also on this thread, I wanted to work in the obligatory quip that Africa Wins Again.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Federal rules aren’t helpful, but it’s mostly state rules which are the problem. Instead of sorting responsibilities and general revenues between different levels of government, the state during the 1960s gave special-purpose grants to county governments along with a menu of mandated functions. It’s a big mess. There’s no interest in state government in cleaning up the mess.

    I think if they were sensible, you’d have a set of state welfare departments which would take responsibility for Medicaid, for hands-on services (including custodial care) for the retarded and the insane, and for auditing custodial care provided by various parties (over and above what the health department examines). The state Labor Department would have branch offices where you could get referrals, apply for unemployment comp, and apply for workman’s comp. Counties would have one department responsible for child protective, elder protective, and foster care and would have another department for purely local initiatives and for optional federally-funded miscellany like the Office for the Aging. Specialized state grant programs to local governments would be replaced with general revenue sharing distributed according to formulae and philanthropic agencies would be told to rely on private donations. Also, I suspect if you stopped subsidizing public housing from above, local governments would see fit to liquidate the residue of projects they currently operate.

  49. But after the state of New York started generously boosting welfare payments in 1961, Rochester et al tended to attract the laziest blacks.

    Wherever they go, there they are.

  50. The decline of Rochester seems to also coincide with the end of The Jack Benny Show

  51. @Art Deco
    @additionalMike

    Overall a great comment & analysis, Mr. Deco, but I must disagree with you there. Failing Dem cities will always try to pass off some of their obligations to the ‘burbs, because that is where the money and the honkies are. Camel’s nose under the tent, etc. The eventual goal is consolidation and political control of the suburbs by the Party and its legion of Black voters. Cuomo II tried to force this on Syracuse and Onondaga County, and neither the Mayor nor the county government would agree, which pissed him off mightily. True to form, he ranted publicly about this.

    Vesting police services in municipal government is a convention, not an outgrown of some moral imperative. Up until 1924, city boundaries in New York followed advances in settlement. After that, you had fixed boundaries and city-settlements distributed over a number of municipalities. About 90% of the densely settled core of Monroe County was in the city in 1925, so it was sensible to have a police department so bounded and rely on sheriff's patrols in the rest of the county. It's not sensible when you have tract-development extending over 14 municipalities.

    The Democratic Party cannot take control of county governments or suburban governments by transferring service provision from municipalities to counties. They can only do so through gaining majorities in those counties or in those suburbs. Blacks account for 14% of the population of Monroe County and 9% of Onondaga County and they are concentrated in the core city in both counties, so they're not going to be much help in building a Democratic electoral base in the suburban townships in either county.

    Replies: @additionalMike

    “The Democratic Party cannot take control of county governments or suburban governments by transferring service provision from municipalities to counties.”
    Agree that they cannot “take control” thereby. Perhaps I was not clear.

    Transferring functions certainly has a surface appeal. But! I believe that, in the political world, this is an attempt to get the ‘burbs to foot the bill for a failing city. In my experience, local governments are perfectly happy to have service agencies such as law enforcement, which arguably would be more efficiently provided by e.g., a county, so long as they can staff these agencies with their political supporters, friends & family (the Civil Service Law only goes so far, you know). No politician will ever give up the opportunity for patronage for mere efficiency, unless they are desperate, and see an opportunity to exploit the deal for their own benefit, e.g., by fiddling with the formula by which a municipality compensates the county for providing services.

    Regarding consolidation, I live in the ‘burbs because I do not want any connection at all, to the extent this is possible, with a municipality with expensive, failing schools, 15 year-old gangbangers shooting and stabbing each other, and “no-go” areas for White people. I believe, and you apparently disagree, that shared services is a first step towards consolidation.
    Well, OK, we can agree to disagree.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @additionalMike

    Transferring functions certainly has a surface appeal. But! I believe that, in the political world, this is an attempt to get the ‘burbs to foot the bill for a failing city.

    All public services are costs socialized over some geographically defined body. If you're objecting to x paying for y, you're pretty much objecting to any sort of public sector per se. The trouble is, we have a public sector because certain sorts of services are not spontaneously generated by markets.

    Replies: @additionalMike

  52. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    @AnotherDad

    You mean Haiti? Blacks cannot create a modern, functional state of their own that is not wholly dependent on white charity. It can’t be done.

    Replies: @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    You mean Haiti? Blacks cannot create a modern, functional state of their own that is not wholly dependent on white charity. It can’t be done.

    I would tend to agree, but whether or not they can is irrelevant. The point is that we must separate from them. What they are or are not able to accomplish post-separation is none of my business.

    • Agree: Polistra
  53. @G. Poulin
    So the author of the Times article just assumes, without a scrap of evidence, that poverty and racism are the causes of black failure. Predictable. Stupid, but predictable.

    Replies: @Joseph Doaks, @Art Deco

    “So the author of the Times article just assumes, without a scrap of evidence, that poverty and racism are the causes of black failure. Predictable. Stupid, but predictable.”

    Actually, the author undoubtedly is not stupid and knows that there is not a scrap of evidence that poverty and racism causes black failure, but is required to say otherwise because that’s what he’s paid to do. The destruction of honest journalism is leading to the downfall of this country. The “Fourth Estate” — bah, humbug!

  54. @Jim Christian
    @Steve Sailer

    Is the brewer of Maximus Super still in Ithaca?

    Replies: @Forbes

    F,X. Matt Brewing Co/West End Brewing Co., brewers of Utica Club beer, and Saranac beers and ales.

    They also contract brewed Billy Beer back in the Jimmy Carter era.

    I don’t know if Maximus Super is still produced.

    • Replies: @Anon87
    @Forbes

    Unfortunately, it is not currently.

  55. @Art Deco
    @Polistra

    Winters are harsher farther inland in New York. That aside, you go out Midwest and you get hit with 'continentality' - baking in the summer (w/ tornados) and blizzards in the winter. The rap on Rochester is that it's overcast most of the time. Summertime at night is sweet.

    Replies: @charles w abbott, @Polistra

    Summertime even during the day is nice in Rochester much of the time.

    The summer days can be hot but they are not uniformly oppressive, and often it is pleasantly cool at night.

    It’s definitely not the Corn Belt. The summers are far less oppressive than the corn / soybean Midwest of Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, etc. And you can tell from the farm crops–we are in a dairy / vegetable belt, with orchards along Lake Ontario, vegetables in the “muck lands,” some grapes in the wine country, and it gets more and more to dairying as you move south into the Southern Tier and away from the Finger Lakes proper.

    It’s my guess that many people don’t leave Rochester in the summer except to go boating or camping elsewhere in NYState.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @charles w abbott

    I've never considered Midwestern summers oppressive. Winter is another story.

  56. @Jake Barnes
    @Steve Sailer

    Even Syracuse, and even within the city limits, was a fine place to grow up through the 80s and 90s. No interest in ever going back, and have hardly visited in a decade. It is a shell of what was already a shell of itself. If it weren’t for the University and the SUNY medical school it would be much worse, which is a terrifying thought.

    Replies: @Forbes

    I’m back about four times a year–my mother is still alive.

    There is little reason to go into the city proper, or downtown. The north side (ghetto white) and the south side (ghetto black) are shambles compared to their former non-glory days. It’s shocking to drive through parts of the city. Needless to say, there are still some nice neighborhoods.

    Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse have lost 40% of their population since 1950–when I believe Detroit was the 2nd most populous city in the US with the highest per capita income.

    In Syracuse, two non-profits (non-taxpaying) are the largest employers: Upstate Medical University (SUNY) and Syracuse University (private). Gone are the blue collar jobs that fueled the local economy: Carrier (air conditioning and corporate HQ) and GM (Fisher Body), which sustained many local business suppliers. The Chrysler (New Process Gear) plant was sold to the Canadian firm Magna Auto, and if the parking lot is any indication, they employ a fraction of its former UAW workforce, and at non-union wages. General Electric once employed 12,000 at its Electronics Park facility probably fields one-tenth that as now owned by General Dynamics. Bristol-Myers had a research and mfg operation (Bristol Laboratories) which produced 70% of the world’s supply of penicillin until early this century. Now, after the destruction of 50 buildings and a half-million sf of facilities, employment drops fron over 2,000 to under 500.

    The downward spiral continues apace as people leave due to high property and income taxes–while college students don’t return because there are no jobs. Two-thirds of my suburban HS graduating class found their futures elsewhere. Those who stayed were either professionals, or had a family business or started a business.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Forbes

    I think there are about 200,000 employed persons in Onondaga County. Syracuse University has about 5,000 employees. The population of Onondaga County has since 1980 declined by 0.7%. There isn't much of a downward spiral.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Jake Barnes, @Forbes

  57. @additionalMike
    @Art Deco

    "The Democratic Party cannot take control of county governments or suburban governments by transferring service provision from municipalities to counties."
    Agree that they cannot "take control" thereby. Perhaps I was not clear.

    Transferring functions certainly has a surface appeal. But! I believe that, in the political world, this is an attempt to get the 'burbs to foot the bill for a failing city. In my experience, local governments are perfectly happy to have service agencies such as law enforcement, which arguably would be more efficiently provided by e.g., a county, so long as they can staff these agencies with their political supporters, friends & family (the Civil Service Law only goes so far, you know). No politician will ever give up the opportunity for patronage for mere efficiency, unless they are desperate, and see an opportunity to exploit the deal for their own benefit, e.g., by fiddling with the formula by which a municipality compensates the county for providing services.

    Regarding consolidation, I live in the 'burbs because I do not want any connection at all, to the extent this is possible, with a municipality with expensive, failing schools, 15 year-old gangbangers shooting and stabbing each other, and "no-go" areas for White people. I believe, and you apparently disagree, that shared services is a first step towards consolidation.
    Well, OK, we can agree to disagree.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Transferring functions certainly has a surface appeal. But! I believe that, in the political world, this is an attempt to get the ‘burbs to foot the bill for a failing city.

    All public services are costs socialized over some geographically defined body. If you’re objecting to x paying for y, you’re pretty much objecting to any sort of public sector per se. The trouble is, we have a public sector because certain sorts of services are not spontaneously generated by markets.

    • Replies: @additionalMike
    @Art Deco

    "If you’re objecting to x paying for y, you’re pretty much objecting to any sort of public sector per se. "

    I do not believe that I have painted myself into that particular corner, but I admire your verbal agility.
    Live long and comment!

  58. @Forbes
    @Jake Barnes

    I'm back about four times a year--my mother is still alive.

    There is little reason to go into the city proper, or downtown. The north side (ghetto white) and the south side (ghetto black) are shambles compared to their former non-glory days. It's shocking to drive through parts of the city. Needless to say, there are still some nice neighborhoods.

    Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse have lost 40% of their population since 1950--when I believe Detroit was the 2nd most populous city in the US with the highest per capita income.

    In Syracuse, two non-profits (non-taxpaying) are the largest employers: Upstate Medical University (SUNY) and Syracuse University (private). Gone are the blue collar jobs that fueled the local economy: Carrier (air conditioning and corporate HQ) and GM (Fisher Body), which sustained many local business suppliers. The Chrysler (New Process Gear) plant was sold to the Canadian firm Magna Auto, and if the parking lot is any indication, they employ a fraction of its former UAW workforce, and at non-union wages. General Electric once employed 12,000 at its Electronics Park facility probably fields one-tenth that as now owned by General Dynamics. Bristol-Myers had a research and mfg operation (Bristol Laboratories) which produced 70% of the world's supply of penicillin until early this century. Now, after the destruction of 50 buildings and a half-million sf of facilities, employment drops fron over 2,000 to under 500.

    The downward spiral continues apace as people leave due to high property and income taxes--while college students don't return because there are no jobs. Two-thirds of my suburban HS graduating class found their futures elsewhere. Those who stayed were either professionals, or had a family business or started a business.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    I think there are about 200,000 employed persons in Onondaga County. Syracuse University has about 5,000 employees. The population of Onondaga County has since 1980 declined by 0.7%. There isn’t much of a downward spiral.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Art Deco


    Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse have lost 40% of their population since 1950.
     
    That's what the man said. Notice he was talking about cities?

    Stop trolling. Stay up there in your hellhole and be quiet.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @Jake Barnes
    @Art Deco

    The spiral is the city went from one where, in the University neighborhood, one could comfortably leave a door unlocked for years, to one where violent crime is rampant (I was stabbed in the spine by a jogger mugger, for example). I would sooner go to Riyadh as a Christian missionary and identify myself as such to the authorities than set foot in the city again.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @Forbes
    @Art Deco


    The population of Onondaga County has since 1980 declined by 0.7%. There isn’t much of a downward spiral.
     
    The peak in the Onondaga County population was in 1970, while the Syracuse city population has declined by ~50,000 (48,688) since 1970.

    No evidence of intra-metropolitan migration. For Syracuse, that's a 25% decline while the US grew 63%.

    I'd call that a downward spiral.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  59. @G. Poulin
    So the author of the Times article just assumes, without a scrap of evidence, that poverty and racism are the causes of black failure. Predictable. Stupid, but predictable.

    Replies: @Joseph Doaks, @Art Deco

    It would be pretty nonsensical to say ‘poverty’ is a ’cause’ of anyone’s ‘failure’. Measures of poverty are measures of people’s deficient earnings; it’s a manifestation of failure not a cause of it.

    I have an uncle living on the Florida space coast. ‘Poverty’ as it would have been understood the year he was born (1927) is exceedingly unusual in Rochester and most anywhere else in this country. What you do have is insecurity and disorder in people’s lives. You can ameliorate that, but people like Michael Corkery aren’t interested, because addressing that does not incorporate injuring people they despise and doesn’t incorporate giving people things – at least does not incorporate giving people much more than redistributive agencies are already giving them. It does incorporate enhanced social discipline, but that would involve people Michael Corkery despises (cops) imposing standards on Michael Corkery’s mascots (slum blacks) according to commonsensical standards favored by those cops and like-minded people (living yesterday, today, and tomorrow). Cannot have that as it upsets the status-hierarchies Michael Corkery takes for granted as an employee of the Sulzbergers (and a graduate of Brown University).

  60. Xerox also recruited Black engineers and technicians to Rochester, including Ursula Burns, who rose to become the first Black woman to lead a Fortune 500 company as chief executive officer.

    Ursula took over in July 2009 and left in December 2016. On her watch Xerox stock returned 6.6%. During the same period the S&P 500 returned 126.7% while the NASDAQ returned 172.1%.

    Eventually, Eltrex shut its doors in 2011. Its challenges were blamed on a mixture of racism…

    Of course they were.

    and its reliance on winning contracts from Xerox and Kodak,

    IOW, handouts.

    • Agree: Polistra
    • Replies: @res
    @William Badwhite

    One take on her tenure.
    https://247wallst.com/technology-3/2016/05/21/former-xerox-ceo-burns-who-nearly-destroyed-company-still-chair/


    Xerox Corp. (NYSE: XRX) CEO and Chair Ursula Burns did more to destroy the company than anyone in its decades long history.
     
    HBR interviewed her recently.
    https://hbr.org/2021/07/im-here-because-im-as-good-as-you

    Burns: When I was CEO, the job was relatively easy.
     

    Replies: @William Badwhite

  61. @Art Deco
    I'll demur here. Syracuse has a satisfactory quality of life; it's just economically somnambulant.

    Rochester has all kinds of problems you do not see in Syracuse. It's main problem, summarized is that the political class is addicted to business-as-usual and the electorate is content with that so long as their property taxes aren't going up. The business sectors as far as I can see are composed of three sorts: businesses too modest to have much influence above and beyond the scale of a suburban township, businesses pre-occupied with their affairs and divorced from the political process in town (I think Paychex might be in that category), and businesses who re-inforce the tendencies of the political class.

    Note the sort of people the Democratic Party slates for public office: you end up with municipal councils chock-a-block with schoolteachers, social workers, and lawyers. What that gets you is the Fast Ferry disaster, wherein Mayor William Johnson (a lapsed social worker) fancied he was promoting 'an aggressive economic development strategy' with a showy tourism promotion scheme. A dear friend of mine in Rochester said at the time that given the price of the ticket, he'd take a ride on the Fast Ferry once for the novelty. He called it; it went under in short order in a manner that left the city government with some comical clean up.

    Note New York City's successful crime control strategies. The reaction of Monroe County's politicians was nada. You had four candidates for mayor in 2005, and only one (John Parinello, the one who had no chance to win) took an interest in New York City's work at all (and his stated plans were rather vague). The mayor elected was Robert Duffy, Johnson's personal choice, and a lapsed police officer. Didn't do any good. The homicide rate was higher during his tenure than it was before or after. A critic of Duffy's said his modus operandi was to hire a consultant to study something, consequent to which they'd receive a report which endorsed business as usual or a report which would be ignored.

    Meanwhile, the county government is generally in the hands of the Republicans. For 12 years, the county executive was one Maggie Brooks, a former TV reporter. Her shtick was that your property taxes would never go up, and most of the rent-free space in her head was devoted to dreaming up accounting shell-games so she could say she 'kept' her promise. That the core city in the county had a homicide rate 2.4x that of Utica and 3.7x that of New York City did not interest her.

    Wm. Johnson wanted some local services transferred from the municipal government to the county government, which is a sensible idea. Maggie Brooks would have none of it. Might complicate her shell games. Service consolidation is an idea to which suburban electorates have had a neuralgic reaction. The last attempt to set up a county police department went down to a 3-1 defeat (in part due to exceedingly poor salesmanship on the part of the then-mayor and then county manager).

    Demographics in the city being how they are, the body of officeholders in the core city is increasingly black. With Johnson's retirement, the dean of the local black pols has been one David Gantt. Lovely Warren, a mediocre local lawyer, was installed in the mayor's chair in 2013 consequent to Gantt's patronage. Black pols are commonly interested in patronage and gestures of deference, and their electorates are content with that. Actually repairing anything doesn't interest them. The big problem you have is quality of life issues in the core city in part consequent to having an understaffed police force which does not use best practices. (During my last years, ineffectual initiatives like neighborhood watch and show pieces mounted officers were promoted by the department). So, what's the priority of public discussion? Some guy tripping on PCP died during an attempt to place him under arrest for civil commitment. (His family had called the police). The reaction will ensure the department is even more ineffectual than it has been heretofore, as officers head back to the doughnut shop to avoid career-ender controversies.

    Lovely Warren's a crook from a family of crooks, and that's generated enough embarrassment to get her blown out of office. Not holding out any hope for her successor, bar that he's passably likely to get through his term without his wife being indicted for drug-trafficking.

    The city schools stink on ice. They have for about 60 years now. Older residents of my old neighborhood could date to the year when disciplinary problems spun out of control at the neighborhood elementary (1962).

    The Genesee Valley's adapted passably to the evaporation of Eastman Kodak (which once directly employed 13% of the population therein). The suburbs have problems you see everywhere - a deficit of walkable neighborhoods, ugly commercial strips everywhere, and traffic congestion. There are some charming redoubts; you can't afford a house in those places.

    And, of course, New York State in it's wisdom has destroyed the autonomy of local government by larding the county governments and school districts with obligations to provide an array of funded and unfunded mandates. These aren't small expenditures. When I was involved in local politics a while back, about 3/4 of the county budget was devoted to line items over which local elected officials had next-to-no discretion.


    / rant off.

    Replies: @Ed, @bomag, @JMcG, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Reg Cæsar

    Thank you Art for that thoughtful comment. You must surely realize that no suburb in its right mind would willingly consolidate with a municipal core that is controlled by blacks. Indeed, the opposite holds true in places like Atlanta and Birmingham.
    I suspect we might be headed for city structures more like that of Paris. An upscale core, a dilapidated inner ring, and then a quick fade to Le France Profonde. Well, just outside that dilapidated inner ring will be a layer of subcontinental sand northeast Asians, at least until such time as their mother countries become more attractive than what’s left of the USA.

  62. @charles w abbott
    Thanks.

    An optimist thinks the glass is half full. A pessimist thinks the glass is half empty.

    A realist notices that the glass is half empty because water is seeping out of a crack in the bottom of the glass.

    I've lived in the suburbs of Rochester about half my life. Went to School Without Walls (alternative school in the city for misfits and rebels) back in the day when it was the third floor of what's now the Harro East building. So I know the city with a bit of an outsider's perspective.


    The quality of life in the suburbs of Rochester can be exceptionally high. Many people downplay the merits of the area but keep coming back. The area also has chronic problems that don't yield to the programs and policies of well-meaning liberals with a pretty theory. The problems are concentrated in minority areas of the city--all the pathologies of the urban underclass are there.

    = - = - = - =

    It's about one calendar year since a gunfight (perhaps 3 or 4 shooters) at a party near the Public Market in the city led to the deaths of two young adults. The two young people, from all accounts, seemed to be good kids, not trouble-makers or dead-end-kids. Three separate parties grew into a big gathering and people couldn't behave themselves and just chill.

    Such events are exceptional--not an everyday event in the Rochester area. There were no immediate arrests, despite dozens of witnesses.

    Captain Frank Umbrino at RPD lost his cool and said what was on his mind about bail reform and the non-enforcement of gun laws on the books. Start at around 11:00 on the video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjPeqZy5NUo

    I might post more later. As a general principle, I would say that cities that are similar to Rochester in terms of size and demography and historical development might be Hartford CT and Milwaukee WI. We're not East St. Louis or Gary IN but there's something wrong and it's been going on for decades.

    More money won't solve the problem. More money might be necessary --more money is not sufficient.

    Replies: @notsaying, @Inquiring Mind, @Dnought

    I would line to hear more. I hope you come back and add to what you have already said. We need to hear more from people like this police captain. I would also love to hear what the good people trapped in these neighborhoods have to say. Yes, they are sick of things, as they should be. Are they willing to see the guys doing this stuff sent to prison even when they are the sons and brothers of people they know?

    • Replies: @charles w abbott
    @notsaying

    I'm a middle class white guy from the suburbs, so take everything I have to say with a grain of salt.

    The good people who live in dangerous neighborhoods don't like predatory street crime and stupid shootings over insults, or "in search of respect." We can guess that raising children in such neighborhoods is hard. Some youngsters grow up and turn in dangerous direction.

    What exactly explains the blanket animosity toward the police I can't explain. For some people it's rational--they feel "hassled by the police" for no reason. On that issue I am going to "punt"--I have to disqualify myself from an attempt at a serious answer. I cannot add value in many discussions about policing. I can just notice that we lose a lot of human potential from violent crime.

    = - = - = - = - =

    RIT criminologist John Klofas gave a few good interviews that were published in _Rochester City Newspaper_ years ago--they are still worth reading today.

    Please note that these articles are more than ten years old:
    Part One is here:

    https://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/rochester/rochester-made-for-murder/Content?oid=2132212

    Part Two is here:

    https://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/rochester/what-options-for-a-city-made-for-murder/Content?oid=2132259

    Klofas makes the valid point that Giuliani and Bratton got the homicide rate down in New York City with stop and frisk...eventually people stopped carrying guns habitually, which reduced spur of the moment shootings. People still had guns--they left them at home.

    The literature on this is huge. Some people engage with it and talk about the genuine issues. I think there are tradeoffs.

    = - = - = - = - =

    One thing that comes to mind is the concept of "Swift, Sure, Certain." Megan McArdle had an article in Bloomberg roughly 5 years ago where she discusses the need to have immediate consequences for small offenses. The article may be paywalled. Otherwise kids start running wild in their mid teens or earlier and get a slap on the wrist a few times until they suddenly commit a more serious offense and are facing serious prison time. I think Klofas does a good job of discussing that general question.

    I was punished for doing stupid things when I was a teenager--it didn't immediately stop me, but it slowed me down and made me think, and eventually I wised up a little bit.

    I often go back and read James Q. Wilson's old article _What to do about crime_ . It's roughly 25 years old.

    I don't know if he's correct, but he points out that interventions have to start early. Midnight basketball for 17 year olds or 23 year olds is not enough. A visiting nurse program for the household of every troubled 6 year old would help more. Thus in the book _The dream hoarders_ Reeves advocates the home visit by the public health agency for all households with children. Just a thought. And this is going to cost real money--"whose ox are to you going to gore" to finance that?

    https://www.commentary.org/articles/james-wilson/what-to-do-about-crime/

    That article (James Q. Wilson) should not be paywalled--see if you can find the non-paywalled essay. Wilson was a very conservative fellow--he advocates bringing back the orphanage for single mothers and their children, with all need based government payments sent to the orphanage. Try running for public office on that platform!

    Another concept is the "investment in impulse control," also discussed by Wilson in _Thinking about crime_.

    The deeper questions are not just legal or administrative but moral. How can we make it so that goodness is fashionable, to quote Wilberforce.

    The general issue is not limited to "ghetto" demographics. The challenges vary by demographic. Historically the big threat for the middle and upper middle class suburbanites has been reckless driving and driving while intoxicated. More recently the opiate epidemic and fentanyl has taken over in the death rate.

    I enjoyed reading Jason Riley's book _Please stop helping us_--he discusses the way he found good men to emulate when he was a young man--some of his relatives were Jehovah's Witnesses! His brother took another road and I believe was dead well before 30.

    The most sensible dialogues I hear on race in the USA are from Glenn Loury and John McWhorter. Had I time, I would be watching every episode of The Glenn Show.

    https://bloggingheads.tv/programs/glenn-show

  63. For fun, I checked out the first 10 cities’ demographics: nine had White populations around 80%, with blacks less than 4%

    The only exception was a town where Whites were about 50% but Asians were another 20%.

    https://money.com/collection/best-places-to-live-2021/

    • Replies: @Jim Cochran
    @Sick of Orcs

    Any city that goes over 20% black is on the way down. If it goes over 50%, its finished.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs

  64. @Art Deco
    @Polistra

    Winters are harsher farther inland in New York. That aside, you go out Midwest and you get hit with 'continentality' - baking in the summer (w/ tornados) and blizzards in the winter. The rap on Rochester is that it's overcast most of the time. Summertime at night is sweet.

    Replies: @charles w abbott, @Polistra

    Rochester is the worst city in the country. You must love it!

    https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/annual-snowfall-by-city.php

    • Replies: @Dnought
    @Polistra

    Actually Rochester gets less snow than Syracuse. If you hate snow (as I do) Syracuse has the worst weather in the country.

    , @syonredux
    @Polistra

    I like snow.

  65. @Art Deco
    @Forbes

    I think there are about 200,000 employed persons in Onondaga County. Syracuse University has about 5,000 employees. The population of Onondaga County has since 1980 declined by 0.7%. There isn't much of a downward spiral.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Jake Barnes, @Forbes

    Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse have lost 40% of their population since 1950.

    That’s what the man said. Notice he was talking about cities?

    Stop trolling. Stay up there in your hellhole and be quiet.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Polistra

    That's from intra-metropolitan migration. Monroe County's population hasn't declined.

  66. @Hodag
    My neighbor is a high achieving black guy - he hosts a local tv show. The high achieving black people I know now all vacation every summer on Martha's Vineyard. It is a huge networking thing.

    Our family also vacations at the beach but we drive to ours. My neighbor and I were chatting over beers one Friday about our various vacations. He said "It is nice just to go somewhere and relax and not deal with any of the bullshit" associated with having to deal with low class black people. Literally the Chris Rock thing.

    The talented tenth is real and are exhausted by the 90%.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Hapalong Cassidy, @ia, @Flip, @3g4me

    I’ve run across a few high end blacks in Chicago in business dealings and they live in skyscrapers on the north side, far from the black west and south sides.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Flip

    Two of the 7 residents in my condo on the north lakefront in Chicago in the 1990s were black -- one a U. of Chicago MBA and the other a CPA from Trinidad.

  67. @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Hodag

    I wonder if the talented tenth are much more likely to marry each other rather than the untalented 90th. Otherwise, regression towards the mean is more likely, and they are more likely than similarly situated Whites to be burdened by useless offspring.

    Replies: @Flip

    I think they do. I went to high school with a black guy from a fancy background and he told me about Jack and Jill, which is an elite black social group.

  68. @Stan d Mute
    As a young bright eyed honkie from Detriot, I was incredibly depressed by my first visits to Upstate NY.

    One hears of these storied places and then one visits only to discover that they are exactly like Flint, Pontiac, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, Muskegon, and Bay City - criminal negro infested government parasitic shitholes.

    Kodak? Polaroid? IBM? No different than a thousand others across the Rust Belt. And every single one of them just created a Detriot on a smaller scale.

    The incessant whining of the negro, “Everywhere we go turns into shit” is pretty tedious in its lack of self-awareness. Is there a single successful example of white liberal corporate leaders embracing the negro? Every single time it seems to end badly for everyone except the white liberal (who invariably flees).

    Replies: @Art Deco, @S. Anonyia

    I don’t think Poughkeepsie is technically part of the Rust belt but I drove through on an East Coast road trip and stopped for dinner; that place totally sucks, it looks and feels more rundown than many Mississippi Delta towns.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @S. Anonyia

    Even by upstate NY standards, Poughkeepsie is incredibly forlorn and depressing. Right across the river is Newburgh which is even worse. Judging from the buildings in both larger and smaller towns further upstate, NYS had a great run around 100 to 200 years ago. That's a long time.

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Sick 'n Tired

  69. @EdwardM

    Its challenges were blamed on a mixture of racism and its reliance on winning contracts from Xerox and Kodak,
     
    Non sequitur of the day!

    Replies: @Bigdicknick

    This was also the standout sentence for me lol. It’s a classic “uh…racism” sentence common in the mainstream press. No need to explain the mechanism by which racism caused the business to fail.

  70. @Flip
    @Hodag

    I've run across a few high end blacks in Chicago in business dealings and they live in skyscrapers on the north side, far from the black west and south sides.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Two of the 7 residents in my condo on the north lakefront in Chicago in the 1990s were black — one a U. of Chicago MBA and the other a CPA from Trinidad.

  71. Any time there’s an artificial force driving migration, selection, attraction, you can get a population of blacks that is pretty good. But over time the population regresses to the mean. This is the “real” problem with black America — it’s not that there is no achievement or ability to be found. It’s that anywhere that black numbers grow over generations in large concentrated numbers, the results tend to be very disappointing.

    Conversely, the best thing about Nordic/Germanic white populations is not necessarily the highest heights their innovators reach (which is quite good), but really the decent level of outcomes their general population reaches. More of a “solid single” than a home run — not violent, not as much abject failure in school and life, the worst outcomes seeming to be despair and suicide.

  72. @Hodag
    My neighbor is a high achieving black guy - he hosts a local tv show. The high achieving black people I know now all vacation every summer on Martha's Vineyard. It is a huge networking thing.

    Our family also vacations at the beach but we drive to ours. My neighbor and I were chatting over beers one Friday about our various vacations. He said "It is nice just to go somewhere and relax and not deal with any of the bullshit" associated with having to deal with low class black people. Literally the Chris Rock thing.

    The talented tenth is real and are exhausted by the 90%.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @Hapalong Cassidy, @ia, @Flip, @3g4me

    @18 Hodag: Regression to the mean is a real thing. As are your ‘high achieving’ black neighbor’s cousins, and children’s friends, and friends’ stepfathers. Sure, sure, he’s a unicorn and would have achieved regardless of skin color. And I bet he never even speaks in ebonics among family.

    The amazingly gullible and self-delusional normie.

  73. @Steve Sailer
    @Abe

    Cooperstown and Ithaca are nice.

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @Jake Barnes, @Hodag, @slumber_j, @profnasty, @36 ulster

    As are Skaneateles and other towns in the Finger Lakes area. Syracuse, not so much. Once our train entered Buffalo, we seemed to be passing through the Alleyway of America from there to Syracuse–we never made it to Utica, but I believe that the “scenery” was similar.

    • Replies: @additionalMike
    @36 ulster

    One of the reasons that Skaneateles is so nice (though I hate to admit it, being a believer in the public having access to nice things) is because the lakefront is pretty much all in private hands, and there is almost no public access. A State boat ramp, a public beach smaller than my front yard, and that is all I know of.
    No big public beaches to attract busloads of Boom Box People to the area.

  74. @Art Deco
    @additionalMike

    Transferring functions certainly has a surface appeal. But! I believe that, in the political world, this is an attempt to get the ‘burbs to foot the bill for a failing city.

    All public services are costs socialized over some geographically defined body. If you're objecting to x paying for y, you're pretty much objecting to any sort of public sector per se. The trouble is, we have a public sector because certain sorts of services are not spontaneously generated by markets.

    Replies: @additionalMike

    “If you’re objecting to x paying for y, you’re pretty much objecting to any sort of public sector per se. ”

    I do not believe that I have painted myself into that particular corner, but I admire your verbal agility.
    Live long and comment!

    • Agree: JMcG, bomag
  75. @36 ulster
    @Steve Sailer

    As are Skaneateles and other towns in the Finger Lakes area. Syracuse, not so much. Once our train entered Buffalo, we seemed to be passing through the Alleyway of America from there to Syracuse--we never made it to Utica, but I believe that the "scenery" was similar.

    Replies: @additionalMike

    One of the reasons that Skaneateles is so nice (though I hate to admit it, being a believer in the public having access to nice things) is because the lakefront is pretty much all in private hands, and there is almost no public access. A State boat ramp, a public beach smaller than my front yard, and that is all I know of.
    No big public beaches to attract busloads of Boom Box People to the area.

  76. @Dr. X
    White Rochesterians has been obsessed with Negroes ever since Frederick Douglass lived there and hooked up with a white woman in the 19th century.

    Today, the Negro population of the city is exceptionally violent and homicidal, and the black political class exceptionally corrupt. The black mayor and her husband were recently charged with illegal gun possession and child endangerment, in addition to the drug-dealing charges he was facing and the campaign fraud charges she was defending herself against. A black city judge was arrested for DUI a few years back, violated the terms of her probation, and was hit with felony charges for attempting to purchase a shotgun while on probation. Not to be outdone, a dreadlocked black city councilman went to prison last year for ripping off a HUD-funded program to uplift po' urban black chillen.

    Yet the smug white liberals insist on thinking and acting as if they live in God's own Eden, and you fail to agree it is only because you are too stupid and too racist to see how wonderful Rochester really is.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Art Deco

    Yet the smug white liberals insist on thinking and acting as if they live in God’s own Eden, and you fail to agree it is only because you are too stupid and too racist to see how wonderful Rochester really is.

    Well, Rochester was once called, “Smugtown, USA,” not without reason.

    People here are very insular, and it is difficult to break into local circles.

    There are nice areas, but that’s as high as the bar goes – nice. Never great, excellent, or sublime.

    At least the local road system is quite overbuilt versus the population so there are hardly ever any traffic jams.

  77. @charles w abbott
    @Art Deco

    Summertime even during the day is nice in Rochester much of the time.

    The summer days can be hot but they are not uniformly oppressive, and often it is pleasantly cool at night.

    It's definitely not the Corn Belt. The summers are far less oppressive than the corn / soybean Midwest of Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, etc. And you can tell from the farm crops--we are in a dairy / vegetable belt, with orchards along Lake Ontario, vegetables in the "muck lands," some grapes in the wine country, and it gets more and more to dairying as you move south into the Southern Tier and away from the Finger Lakes proper.

    It's my guess that many people don't leave Rochester in the summer except to go boating or camping elsewhere in NYState.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    I’ve never considered Midwestern summers oppressive. Winter is another story.

  78. @S. Anonyia
    @Stan d Mute

    I don't think Poughkeepsie is technically part of the Rust belt but I drove through on an East Coast road trip and stopped for dinner; that place totally sucks, it looks and feels more rundown than many Mississippi Delta towns.

    Replies: @Polistra

    Even by upstate NY standards, Poughkeepsie is incredibly forlorn and depressing. Right across the river is Newburgh which is even worse. Judging from the buildings in both larger and smaller towns further upstate, NYS had a great run around 100 to 200 years ago. That’s a long time.

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @Polistra

    You ever pick your feet in Poughkeepsie?

    , @Sick 'n Tired
    @Polistra

    Poughkeepsie is a shithole, but Newburgh and Hudson (east of Newburgh across the river) have seen a resurgence in recent years from young families moving up there, because the NYC area priced them out. Houses were relatively cheap ($400k) and the train runs along the river right into Grand Central. Its a nice ride during fall when the leaves are changing, and only takes about an hour.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

  79. @Art Deco
    I'll demur here. Syracuse has a satisfactory quality of life; it's just economically somnambulant.

    Rochester has all kinds of problems you do not see in Syracuse. It's main problem, summarized is that the political class is addicted to business-as-usual and the electorate is content with that so long as their property taxes aren't going up. The business sectors as far as I can see are composed of three sorts: businesses too modest to have much influence above and beyond the scale of a suburban township, businesses pre-occupied with their affairs and divorced from the political process in town (I think Paychex might be in that category), and businesses who re-inforce the tendencies of the political class.

    Note the sort of people the Democratic Party slates for public office: you end up with municipal councils chock-a-block with schoolteachers, social workers, and lawyers. What that gets you is the Fast Ferry disaster, wherein Mayor William Johnson (a lapsed social worker) fancied he was promoting 'an aggressive economic development strategy' with a showy tourism promotion scheme. A dear friend of mine in Rochester said at the time that given the price of the ticket, he'd take a ride on the Fast Ferry once for the novelty. He called it; it went under in short order in a manner that left the city government with some comical clean up.

    Note New York City's successful crime control strategies. The reaction of Monroe County's politicians was nada. You had four candidates for mayor in 2005, and only one (John Parinello, the one who had no chance to win) took an interest in New York City's work at all (and his stated plans were rather vague). The mayor elected was Robert Duffy, Johnson's personal choice, and a lapsed police officer. Didn't do any good. The homicide rate was higher during his tenure than it was before or after. A critic of Duffy's said his modus operandi was to hire a consultant to study something, consequent to which they'd receive a report which endorsed business as usual or a report which would be ignored.

    Meanwhile, the county government is generally in the hands of the Republicans. For 12 years, the county executive was one Maggie Brooks, a former TV reporter. Her shtick was that your property taxes would never go up, and most of the rent-free space in her head was devoted to dreaming up accounting shell-games so she could say she 'kept' her promise. That the core city in the county had a homicide rate 2.4x that of Utica and 3.7x that of New York City did not interest her.

    Wm. Johnson wanted some local services transferred from the municipal government to the county government, which is a sensible idea. Maggie Brooks would have none of it. Might complicate her shell games. Service consolidation is an idea to which suburban electorates have had a neuralgic reaction. The last attempt to set up a county police department went down to a 3-1 defeat (in part due to exceedingly poor salesmanship on the part of the then-mayor and then county manager).

    Demographics in the city being how they are, the body of officeholders in the core city is increasingly black. With Johnson's retirement, the dean of the local black pols has been one David Gantt. Lovely Warren, a mediocre local lawyer, was installed in the mayor's chair in 2013 consequent to Gantt's patronage. Black pols are commonly interested in patronage and gestures of deference, and their electorates are content with that. Actually repairing anything doesn't interest them. The big problem you have is quality of life issues in the core city in part consequent to having an understaffed police force which does not use best practices. (During my last years, ineffectual initiatives like neighborhood watch and show pieces mounted officers were promoted by the department). So, what's the priority of public discussion? Some guy tripping on PCP died during an attempt to place him under arrest for civil commitment. (His family had called the police). The reaction will ensure the department is even more ineffectual than it has been heretofore, as officers head back to the doughnut shop to avoid career-ender controversies.

    Lovely Warren's a crook from a family of crooks, and that's generated enough embarrassment to get her blown out of office. Not holding out any hope for her successor, bar that he's passably likely to get through his term without his wife being indicted for drug-trafficking.

    The city schools stink on ice. They have for about 60 years now. Older residents of my old neighborhood could date to the year when disciplinary problems spun out of control at the neighborhood elementary (1962).

    The Genesee Valley's adapted passably to the evaporation of Eastman Kodak (which once directly employed 13% of the population therein). The suburbs have problems you see everywhere - a deficit of walkable neighborhoods, ugly commercial strips everywhere, and traffic congestion. There are some charming redoubts; you can't afford a house in those places.

    And, of course, New York State in it's wisdom has destroyed the autonomy of local government by larding the county governments and school districts with obligations to provide an array of funded and unfunded mandates. These aren't small expenditures. When I was involved in local politics a while back, about 3/4 of the county budget was devoted to line items over which local elected officials had next-to-no discretion.


    / rant off.

    Replies: @Ed, @bomag, @JMcG, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Reg Cæsar

    Syracuse has a satisfactory quality of life…

    Downtown Syracuse also has Al’s Wine & Whiskey Lounge, which has a ludicrous selection of whiskies on hand.

    http://www.alswineandwhiskey.com/

  80. @slumber_j
    @Steve Sailer

    Corning's nice too--at least the downtown and the Glass Museum, which I recommend highly.

    We were there this spring on the way back to CT from a road trip to Cincinnati: not as prosperous a town as it should be, as I imagine Corning Inc. has offshored a lot of its manufacturing, but the company does seem to pump a lot of money into the town in order to be able to attract talent. We ate extraordinarily well in Corning, and it's in a very pretty setting. I don't think it ever had anywhere near the black population of Rochester e.g., so all that stuff never happened there.

    Replies: @hhsiii, @Anon87

    We went to Corning when my daughter was 5 about 7 years ago. It’s a pretty nice little town. Confluence of the Chenango and Chemung.

    • Replies: @hhsiii
    @hhsiii

    or Susquehanna.

  81. @Forbes
    @Jim Christian

    F,X. Matt Brewing Co/West End Brewing Co., brewers of Utica Club beer, and Saranac beers and ales.

    They also contract brewed Billy Beer back in the Jimmy Carter era.

    I don't know if Maximus Super is still produced.

    Replies: @Anon87

    Unfortunately, it is not currently.

  82. @slumber_j
    @Steve Sailer

    Corning's nice too--at least the downtown and the Glass Museum, which I recommend highly.

    We were there this spring on the way back to CT from a road trip to Cincinnati: not as prosperous a town as it should be, as I imagine Corning Inc. has offshored a lot of its manufacturing, but the company does seem to pump a lot of money into the town in order to be able to attract talent. We ate extraordinarily well in Corning, and it's in a very pretty setting. I don't think it ever had anywhere near the black population of Rochester e.g., so all that stuff never happened there.

    Replies: @hhsiii, @Anon87

    They have offshored quite a bit, but Gorilla Glass really saved them from hitting the skids as bad as Kodak and Xerox have.

    • Thanks: slumber_j
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon87

    Right, Corning Glass invented the Gorilla Glass in your smartphone, a great invention. Otherwise, I would break a smartphone by dropping it every few months.

  83. @hhsiii
    @slumber_j

    We went to Corning when my daughter was 5 about 7 years ago. It’s a pretty nice little town. Confluence of the Chenango and Chemung.

    Replies: @hhsiii

    or Susquehanna.

  84. @Anon87
    @slumber_j

    They have offshored quite a bit, but Gorilla Glass really saved them from hitting the skids as bad as Kodak and Xerox have.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Right, Corning Glass invented the Gorilla Glass in your smartphone, a great invention. Otherwise, I would break a smartphone by dropping it every few months.

  85. @charles w abbott
    Richard Reeves book _The dream hoarders_ is worth reading. His basic claim is that the top 20% has carved out a nice life and made things harder for everyone else. This can be analyzed in terms of class, without introducing race. The book is published by Brookings.

    = - = - = - =

    A lot of what ails Rochester is driven by "producer interests." The Rochester City Schools probably don't serve the students so much as they serve various "producer interests," including all of the workers who need a steady job with benefits.

    A consequence is that teaching in the city schools can provide enough income to live in the suburbs and avoid sending your children to the city schools. I think I have seen the figures for the percentage of public school teachers in the City of Rochester who live in the suburbs. It's pretty high. And the commutes are short--it's only about 4 miles from downtown Rochester to the city line. Half the county's population doesn't live in the city.

    = - = - = - =

    In terms of general reading on the experience of Black Americans in the Yankee North, I am fond of Gene Dattel's book _Reckoning with Race_ , published by Encounter. I had to buy my own copy online since what the Monroe County Library system (generally very respectable system) has acquired here is dozens of books on race apparently influenced by CRT and similar fashions. The grift and the correct opinion of the woke makes it harder to find heterodox opinions, even if they might be accurate.

    Dattel spends considerable time discussing examples from Connecticut, since he attended Yale after leaving Mississippi

    https://www.encounterbooks.com/books/reckoning-with-race/

    = - = - = - =

    Commenter Art Deco's cynicism is well founded--what has come close to ruining Rochester is dozens of little grifts and scams and rackets and special interests. Not all of them are run by evil geniuses. I expect that there are many hard working well meaning professionals who are certain that they are working hard and on the right track, and that no one else can improve upon what they are doing. We just need to try harder, and to put in more money.

    The net result is public institutions that don't function well, difficulty starting new businesses, "incentive traps" that make it tempting to avoid working one's ass off rather than looking for means-teasted benefits, and various plausible projects to repair the consequences of the poor business climate. Add to that well-meaning liberal pieties that whatever happens to the Black Americans who came North is not their own fault, but rather society has failed them. And society owes them something. All this adds up.

    I can't say I blame Black Rochesterians if they are pissed at smug white suburbanites. The question is who's to blame for what, and who's responsible for fixing what? It's complex. Given the amount of dysfunction I'd say many people are actually pretty friendly and courteous across the lines of race and class. And we're excited about the Bills this season.

    My guess is that lots of professions involve drinking the Kool-aid (tm). Once you get a steady public sector job you think it's essential and everyone you serve needs what you provide. Then you just need more money to provide it better. Why not let kids in high school drop out if they aren't learning anything? Producer interests. How can you maximize the number of teacher jobs to retirement if the kids are working full time day jobs and dropped out of school last year?

    Albert O. Hirschman's classic _Exit voice and loyalty_ is still worth reading.

    Now let me go read the NYT article before I keep opinionating

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Thanks.

  86. @Art Deco
    I'll demur here. Syracuse has a satisfactory quality of life; it's just economically somnambulant.

    Rochester has all kinds of problems you do not see in Syracuse. It's main problem, summarized is that the political class is addicted to business-as-usual and the electorate is content with that so long as their property taxes aren't going up. The business sectors as far as I can see are composed of three sorts: businesses too modest to have much influence above and beyond the scale of a suburban township, businesses pre-occupied with their affairs and divorced from the political process in town (I think Paychex might be in that category), and businesses who re-inforce the tendencies of the political class.

    Note the sort of people the Democratic Party slates for public office: you end up with municipal councils chock-a-block with schoolteachers, social workers, and lawyers. What that gets you is the Fast Ferry disaster, wherein Mayor William Johnson (a lapsed social worker) fancied he was promoting 'an aggressive economic development strategy' with a showy tourism promotion scheme. A dear friend of mine in Rochester said at the time that given the price of the ticket, he'd take a ride on the Fast Ferry once for the novelty. He called it; it went under in short order in a manner that left the city government with some comical clean up.

    Note New York City's successful crime control strategies. The reaction of Monroe County's politicians was nada. You had four candidates for mayor in 2005, and only one (John Parinello, the one who had no chance to win) took an interest in New York City's work at all (and his stated plans were rather vague). The mayor elected was Robert Duffy, Johnson's personal choice, and a lapsed police officer. Didn't do any good. The homicide rate was higher during his tenure than it was before or after. A critic of Duffy's said his modus operandi was to hire a consultant to study something, consequent to which they'd receive a report which endorsed business as usual or a report which would be ignored.

    Meanwhile, the county government is generally in the hands of the Republicans. For 12 years, the county executive was one Maggie Brooks, a former TV reporter. Her shtick was that your property taxes would never go up, and most of the rent-free space in her head was devoted to dreaming up accounting shell-games so she could say she 'kept' her promise. That the core city in the county had a homicide rate 2.4x that of Utica and 3.7x that of New York City did not interest her.

    Wm. Johnson wanted some local services transferred from the municipal government to the county government, which is a sensible idea. Maggie Brooks would have none of it. Might complicate her shell games. Service consolidation is an idea to which suburban electorates have had a neuralgic reaction. The last attempt to set up a county police department went down to a 3-1 defeat (in part due to exceedingly poor salesmanship on the part of the then-mayor and then county manager).

    Demographics in the city being how they are, the body of officeholders in the core city is increasingly black. With Johnson's retirement, the dean of the local black pols has been one David Gantt. Lovely Warren, a mediocre local lawyer, was installed in the mayor's chair in 2013 consequent to Gantt's patronage. Black pols are commonly interested in patronage and gestures of deference, and their electorates are content with that. Actually repairing anything doesn't interest them. The big problem you have is quality of life issues in the core city in part consequent to having an understaffed police force which does not use best practices. (During my last years, ineffectual initiatives like neighborhood watch and show pieces mounted officers were promoted by the department). So, what's the priority of public discussion? Some guy tripping on PCP died during an attempt to place him under arrest for civil commitment. (His family had called the police). The reaction will ensure the department is even more ineffectual than it has been heretofore, as officers head back to the doughnut shop to avoid career-ender controversies.

    Lovely Warren's a crook from a family of crooks, and that's generated enough embarrassment to get her blown out of office. Not holding out any hope for her successor, bar that he's passably likely to get through his term without his wife being indicted for drug-trafficking.

    The city schools stink on ice. They have for about 60 years now. Older residents of my old neighborhood could date to the year when disciplinary problems spun out of control at the neighborhood elementary (1962).

    The Genesee Valley's adapted passably to the evaporation of Eastman Kodak (which once directly employed 13% of the population therein). The suburbs have problems you see everywhere - a deficit of walkable neighborhoods, ugly commercial strips everywhere, and traffic congestion. There are some charming redoubts; you can't afford a house in those places.

    And, of course, New York State in it's wisdom has destroyed the autonomy of local government by larding the county governments and school districts with obligations to provide an array of funded and unfunded mandates. These aren't small expenditures. When I was involved in local politics a while back, about 3/4 of the county budget was devoted to line items over which local elected officials had next-to-no discretion.


    / rant off.

    Replies: @Ed, @bomag, @JMcG, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Reg Cæsar

    That the core city in the county had a homicide rate 2.4x that of Utica and 3.7x that of New York City did not interest her.

    Arlington House, the publishing arm of the Conservative Book Club (or perhaps it was vice versa), put out a book in the 1970s called America’s 50 Safest Cities, by David Franke. Utica was #4, Rome #2, making Oneida County perhaps the safest urban county in the land. IIRC, nine of the ten safest cities were in New York or Wisconsin. Lake effect?

    The book was honest. Utica’s low crime rate was attributed to the fact that there was nothing left to steal.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Reg Cæsar

    The Utica commuter belt has a personal income per capita about 20% below national means. There's plenty to steal.

  87. @charles w abbott
    Thanks.

    An optimist thinks the glass is half full. A pessimist thinks the glass is half empty.

    A realist notices that the glass is half empty because water is seeping out of a crack in the bottom of the glass.

    I've lived in the suburbs of Rochester about half my life. Went to School Without Walls (alternative school in the city for misfits and rebels) back in the day when it was the third floor of what's now the Harro East building. So I know the city with a bit of an outsider's perspective.


    The quality of life in the suburbs of Rochester can be exceptionally high. Many people downplay the merits of the area but keep coming back. The area also has chronic problems that don't yield to the programs and policies of well-meaning liberals with a pretty theory. The problems are concentrated in minority areas of the city--all the pathologies of the urban underclass are there.

    = - = - = - =

    It's about one calendar year since a gunfight (perhaps 3 or 4 shooters) at a party near the Public Market in the city led to the deaths of two young adults. The two young people, from all accounts, seemed to be good kids, not trouble-makers or dead-end-kids. Three separate parties grew into a big gathering and people couldn't behave themselves and just chill.

    Such events are exceptional--not an everyday event in the Rochester area. There were no immediate arrests, despite dozens of witnesses.

    Captain Frank Umbrino at RPD lost his cool and said what was on his mind about bail reform and the non-enforcement of gun laws on the books. Start at around 11:00 on the video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjPeqZy5NUo

    I might post more later. As a general principle, I would say that cities that are similar to Rochester in terms of size and demography and historical development might be Hartford CT and Milwaukee WI. We're not East St. Louis or Gary IN but there's something wrong and it's been going on for decades.

    More money won't solve the problem. More money might be necessary --more money is not sufficient.

    Replies: @notsaying, @Inquiring Mind, @Dnought

    40 rounds, 14 wounded, 2 dead.

    • Replies: @charles w abbott
    @Inquiring Mind

    40 rounds.

    At least three shooters, perhaps four. Methinks it was determined that a minimum of three persons were shooting at each other. The theory of three shooters may not have been definitively established.

    The two kids who died in the exchange of gunfire had just graduated from high school. Those who knew them all say they were good kids, well behaved, with promising futures.

    Their names were Jaquayla Young and Jarvis Alexander. Both were 19 years old. May their souls rest in perfect peace.

    General opinion is that the two kids who died were not the targets of anyone. They may not have been well acquainted with the shooter(s) who ended their lives.

    14 persons injured.

    No arrests one year later.

    https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/local-news/1-year-later-still-no-arrests-in-pennsylvania-ave-mass-shooting/

  88. @Polistra
    @Art Deco

    Rochester is the worst city in the country. You must love it!

    https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/annual-snowfall-by-city.php

    Replies: @Dnought, @syonredux

    Actually Rochester gets less snow than Syracuse. If you hate snow (as I do) Syracuse has the worst weather in the country.

  89. @charles w abbott
    Thanks.

    An optimist thinks the glass is half full. A pessimist thinks the glass is half empty.

    A realist notices that the glass is half empty because water is seeping out of a crack in the bottom of the glass.

    I've lived in the suburbs of Rochester about half my life. Went to School Without Walls (alternative school in the city for misfits and rebels) back in the day when it was the third floor of what's now the Harro East building. So I know the city with a bit of an outsider's perspective.


    The quality of life in the suburbs of Rochester can be exceptionally high. Many people downplay the merits of the area but keep coming back. The area also has chronic problems that don't yield to the programs and policies of well-meaning liberals with a pretty theory. The problems are concentrated in minority areas of the city--all the pathologies of the urban underclass are there.

    = - = - = - =

    It's about one calendar year since a gunfight (perhaps 3 or 4 shooters) at a party near the Public Market in the city led to the deaths of two young adults. The two young people, from all accounts, seemed to be good kids, not trouble-makers or dead-end-kids. Three separate parties grew into a big gathering and people couldn't behave themselves and just chill.

    Such events are exceptional--not an everyday event in the Rochester area. There were no immediate arrests, despite dozens of witnesses.

    Captain Frank Umbrino at RPD lost his cool and said what was on his mind about bail reform and the non-enforcement of gun laws on the books. Start at around 11:00 on the video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjPeqZy5NUo

    I might post more later. As a general principle, I would say that cities that are similar to Rochester in terms of size and demography and historical development might be Hartford CT and Milwaukee WI. We're not East St. Louis or Gary IN but there's something wrong and it's been going on for decades.

    More money won't solve the problem. More money might be necessary --more money is not sufficient.

    Replies: @notsaying, @Inquiring Mind, @Dnought

    There was also the horrifying incident back in March where two black teens killed a 53 year old disabled guy by lighting him on fire.

    Umbrino had a bit to say about that too. Guy seems almost based.

    • Replies: @charles w abbott
    @Dnought

    Being a cop can be a very tough job. We can imagine that Umbrino deals with a lot of frustrating challenges.

    = - = - = - =


    There is an excellent book called _400 things cops know_ by Adam Plantinga.

    It is exceptionally well written. Peter Moskos recommended it at his _Cop in the hood_ blog. Moskos worked for a few years as street cop in Baltimore becoming a professor of criminology.


    Adam Plantinga had 13 years duty as a cop when he wrote his book.

    https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/400-things-cops-know-adam-plantinga/1118939696

    , @Inquiring Mind
    @Dnought

    "There are over a hundred witnesses. They need to come forward so we can hold the shooters accountable."

    Does the police captain expect this to happen, or is he uttering platitudes?

    Not fully based but almost based?

  90. @William Badwhite

    Xerox also recruited Black engineers and technicians to Rochester, including Ursula Burns, who rose to become the first Black woman to lead a Fortune 500 company as chief executive officer.
     
    Ursula took over in July 2009 and left in December 2016. On her watch Xerox stock returned 6.6%. During the same period the S&P 500 returned 126.7% while the NASDAQ returned 172.1%.


    Eventually, Eltrex shut its doors in 2011. Its challenges were blamed on a mixture of racism...
     
    Of course they were.

    and its reliance on winning contracts from Xerox and Kodak,
     
    IOW, handouts.

    Replies: @res

    One take on her tenure.
    https://247wallst.com/technology-3/2016/05/21/former-xerox-ceo-burns-who-nearly-destroyed-company-still-chair/

    Xerox Corp. (NYSE: XRX) CEO and Chair Ursula Burns did more to destroy the company than anyone in its decades long history.

    HBR interviewed her recently.
    https://hbr.org/2021/07/im-here-because-im-as-good-as-you

    Burns: When I was CEO, the job was relatively easy.

    • LOL: Yngvar
    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    @res

    https://hbr.org/resources/images/article_assets/2021/06/R2104K_SLOMAN.jpg

    Smug, arrogant, and stupid. Quite a combination.

    When I was CEO, the job was relatively easy.
     

    "The confidence of the idiot"

    You have to balance how much profit you make and how much cash you generate against how much of a positive impact you can have on society, your employees, and the communities where you do business.
     

    The Xerox board that hired this AA dolt should have all been sued into bankruptcy.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  91. @Reg Cæsar
    @Art Deco


    That the core city in the county had a homicide rate 2.4x that of Utica and 3.7x that of New York City did not interest her.
     
    Arlington House, the publishing arm of the Conservative Book Club (or perhaps it was vice versa), put out a book in the 1970s called America's 50 Safest Cities, by David Franke. Utica was #4, Rome #2, making Oneida County perhaps the safest urban county in the land. IIRC, nine of the ten safest cities were in New York or Wisconsin. Lake effect?

    The book was honest. Utica's low crime rate was attributed to the fact that there was nothing left to steal.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    The Utica commuter belt has a personal income per capita about 20% below national means. There’s plenty to steal.

  92. @Polistra
    @Art Deco


    Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse have lost 40% of their population since 1950.
     
    That's what the man said. Notice he was talking about cities?

    Stop trolling. Stay up there in your hellhole and be quiet.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    That’s from intra-metropolitan migration. Monroe County’s population hasn’t declined.

  93. @Dr. X
    White Rochesterians has been obsessed with Negroes ever since Frederick Douglass lived there and hooked up with a white woman in the 19th century.

    Today, the Negro population of the city is exceptionally violent and homicidal, and the black political class exceptionally corrupt. The black mayor and her husband were recently charged with illegal gun possession and child endangerment, in addition to the drug-dealing charges he was facing and the campaign fraud charges she was defending herself against. A black city judge was arrested for DUI a few years back, violated the terms of her probation, and was hit with felony charges for attempting to purchase a shotgun while on probation. Not to be outdone, a dreadlocked black city councilman went to prison last year for ripping off a HUD-funded program to uplift po' urban black chillen.

    Yet the smug white liberals insist on thinking and acting as if they live in God's own Eden, and you fail to agree it is only because you are too stupid and too racist to see how wonderful Rochester really is.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Art Deco

    Yet the smug white liberals insist on thinking and acting as if they live in God’s own Eden, and you fail to agree it is only because you are too stupid and too racist to see how wonderful Rochester really is.

    Doesn’t describe Mrs. Towler at all, or the old Metro-Act crowd. (One of Mrs. Towler’s shticks was that the nightlife was too dull to induce her children to stay there). Their problem is that they have the same solutions for every problem you name: hire more social workers, hire more teachers, and redistribute more income (or provide more ‘services’). And they’re certainly not inveterately opposed to the sort of sketchy public-private deals that are floated every so often to ‘revive’ downtown.

  94. The Rochester City School District is a catastrophe, of course.

    • English/math proficiency (a low standard) rates are ~13%.
    • The district admits that it charges taxpayers ~\$27K per kid.
    • The superintendent makes \$250K.

  95. @Art Deco
    @Forbes

    I think there are about 200,000 employed persons in Onondaga County. Syracuse University has about 5,000 employees. The population of Onondaga County has since 1980 declined by 0.7%. There isn't much of a downward spiral.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Jake Barnes, @Forbes

    The spiral is the city went from one where, in the University neighborhood, one could comfortably leave a door unlocked for years, to one where violent crime is rampant (I was stabbed in the spine by a jogger mugger, for example). I would sooner go to Riyadh as a Christian missionary and identify myself as such to the authorities than set foot in the city again.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Jake Barnes

    The homicide rate is approximately 2x what it was 25 years ago, 'tis true.

  96. @Sick of Orcs
    For fun, I checked out the first 10 cities' demographics: nine had White populations around 80%, with blacks less than 4%

    The only exception was a town where Whites were about 50% but Asians were another 20%.

    https://money.com/collection/best-places-to-live-2021/

    Replies: @Jim Cochran

    Any city that goes over 20% black is on the way down. If it goes over 50%, its finished.

    • Agree: Sick of Orcs
    • Replies: @Sick of Orcs
    @Jim Cochran

    With the current lawlessness and anti-Whitism, even 5% flatnoses is a menace.

  97. The only thing worth talking about is the re-migration of blacks out of Rochester.

  98. @Jake Barnes
    @Art Deco

    The spiral is the city went from one where, in the University neighborhood, one could comfortably leave a door unlocked for years, to one where violent crime is rampant (I was stabbed in the spine by a jogger mugger, for example). I would sooner go to Riyadh as a Christian missionary and identify myself as such to the authorities than set foot in the city again.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    The homicide rate is approximately 2x what it was 25 years ago, ’tis true.

  99. @Jim Cochran
    @Sick of Orcs

    Any city that goes over 20% black is on the way down. If it goes over 50%, its finished.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs

    With the current lawlessness and anti-Whitism, even 5% flatnoses is a menace.

  100. One of the things that currently cannot be said openly is that despite loads of media articles about the untapped potential of blacks and how diversity makes everything better, the default cultural mindset that has been inculcated in blacks is that they deserve to be taken care of by society (ie whites) and the only yardstick that matters is how blacks fare in relation to whites.

    Any person whose mentality is about keeping a running scorecard against some real or perceived adversary rather than just putting your head down and forging ahead is set up for failure and resentment. It’s a toxic form of dependency, and in the case of American blacks this concept is reinforced from birth by community ‘leaders’, our media, and political institutions.

  101. @PaceLaw
    This quote really could’ve been from the Babylon Bee as opposed to the New York Times: “Some community leaders say the company and its corporate sponsors veered from its mission by focusing on profit while shedding its Black activist identity.” I guess this is why many black businesses don’t thrive; they are not interested in profit.

    Replies: @West reanimator

    Nah, the community leaders are correct. Focusing on profit means the black-owned firms have to compete on the free market,where they will fail. Focusing on black activism means they can just rent seek off the local government and successful corporations, where it is impossible to fail.

  102. @Inquiring Mind
    @charles w abbott

    40 rounds, 14 wounded, 2 dead.

    Replies: @charles w abbott

    40 rounds.

    At least three shooters, perhaps four. Methinks it was determined that a minimum of three persons were shooting at each other. The theory of three shooters may not have been definitively established.

    The two kids who died in the exchange of gunfire had just graduated from high school. Those who knew them all say they were good kids, well behaved, with promising futures.

    Their names were Jaquayla Young and Jarvis Alexander. Both were 19 years old. May their souls rest in perfect peace.

    General opinion is that the two kids who died were not the targets of anyone. They may not have been well acquainted with the shooter(s) who ended their lives.

    14 persons injured.

    No arrests one year later.

    https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/local-news/1-year-later-still-no-arrests-in-pennsylvania-ave-mass-shooting/

  103. @Dnought
    @charles w abbott

    There was also the horrifying incident back in March where two black teens killed a 53 year old disabled guy by lighting him on fire.

    Umbrino had a bit to say about that too. Guy seems almost based.


    Replies: @charles w abbott, @Inquiring Mind

    Being a cop can be a very tough job. We can imagine that Umbrino deals with a lot of frustrating challenges.

    = – = – = – =

    There is an excellent book called _400 things cops know_ by Adam Plantinga.

    It is exceptionally well written. Peter Moskos recommended it at his _Cop in the hood_ blog. Moskos worked for a few years as street cop in Baltimore becoming a professor of criminology.

    Adam Plantinga had 13 years duty as a cop when he wrote his book.

    https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/400-things-cops-know-adam-plantinga/1118939696

  104. @Dnought
    @charles w abbott

    There was also the horrifying incident back in March where two black teens killed a 53 year old disabled guy by lighting him on fire.

    Umbrino had a bit to say about that too. Guy seems almost based.


    Replies: @charles w abbott, @Inquiring Mind

    “There are over a hundred witnesses. They need to come forward so we can hold the shooters accountable.”

    Does the police captain expect this to happen, or is he uttering platitudes?

    Not fully based but almost based?

  105. @res
    @William Badwhite

    One take on her tenure.
    https://247wallst.com/technology-3/2016/05/21/former-xerox-ceo-burns-who-nearly-destroyed-company-still-chair/


    Xerox Corp. (NYSE: XRX) CEO and Chair Ursula Burns did more to destroy the company than anyone in its decades long history.
     
    HBR interviewed her recently.
    https://hbr.org/2021/07/im-here-because-im-as-good-as-you

    Burns: When I was CEO, the job was relatively easy.
     

    Replies: @William Badwhite


    Smug, arrogant, and stupid. Quite a combination.

    When I was CEO, the job was relatively easy.

    “The confidence of the idiot”

    You have to balance how much profit you make and how much cash you generate against how much of a positive impact you can have on society, your employees, and the communities where you do business.

    The Xerox board that hired this AA dolt should have all been sued into bankruptcy.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @William Badwhite

    A previous Xerox CEO wrote a book which his publishers thought apposite to try to market under the title Winning the Brain Race. People talented in business aren't necessarily given to tasteful elegance in speech.

    Replies: @bigdicknick

  106. Anonymous[367] • Disclaimer says:

    It may not be that Rochester failed because Kodak or Xerox did, it may be that Kodak failed and Xerox stagnated because Rochester did. If no one good wants to move to your city, if all the best people leave, your company will stagnate. Why would any good engineer move or stay in Rochester, as opposed to (then) Silicon Valley or Austin or Manhattan or wherever. Eventually that will degrade you. Corporations used to look out for their cities for a reason. Once Rochester went, the pool of new good people willing to work at Kodak or Xerox had to drop.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Anonymous

    It may not be that Rochester failed because Kodak or Xerox did, it may be that Kodak failed and Xerox stagnated because Rochester did. If no one good wants to move to your city, if all the best people leave, your company will stagnate. Why would any good engineer move or stay in Rochester, as opposed to (then) Silicon Valley or Austin or Manhattan or wherever. Eventually that will degrade you. Corporations used to look out for their cities for a reason. Once Rochester went, the pool of new good people willing to work at Kodak or Xerox had to drop.

    They'll move there because (1) you can afford a house and (2) the commutes aren't bad and (3) Austin, Manhattan, and SV have no amenities you care about that you cannot find in a 2d or 3d tier city. Also, people who grew up locally and want what is familiar stay.

    You all keep forgetting that 2/3 of those living in the tract development in Monroe County do not live in the core city and half of those living in the core city are not living in bad neighborhoods or sketchy neighborhoods.



    If no one good

    Sort of amused that there are people who think in binaries by default.

    , @Jack D
    @Anonymous

    1. Most companies and regions are like humans - they have a life cycle. They start out as young and vigorous and then they get old and tired and die. Someday Apple will be as tired as NCR and Amazon will be as defunct as Woolworths. And Silicon Valley will be as slumlike as Rochester.

    2. Rochester, like a lot of American cities, was just hollowed out - all the white people fled the inner city for the suburbs. If you look at the Rochester region as a whole, it's doing fine. It's a shame that the inner city is more or less a shithole but the life of the white people in the suburbs is not much affected by it.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @epebble
    @Anonymous

    I think once we transitioned to Post-industrial economy (technology and services), advantages like seaports went away. New industries that didn't depend on past chose warmer places. Economy moved to coasts, and South and West. Midwest and New England with colder weather lost out (except NYC, for being very special due to being money center). There may also be some impact due to large number of Asians and immigrants working in modern Tech and service economies who don't have any attachment to the interior heartland and stay closer to coasts for better weather and easier travel abroad.

    , @Sick 'n Tired
    @Anonymous

    The only thing keeping people living in Rochester is Wegmans, according to the few Rochester people I know who love that grocery store (which isn't even that great IMO).

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Anon87

    , @Art Deco
    @Anonymous

    While we're at it, the Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes data on the ratio of working engineers to the total workforce is various commuter belts. The commuter belts where that ratio is highest would be as follows:

    Civil engineers:

    Fairbanks, AK
    Carson City, NV
    Yuba City, CA
    Walla Walla, WA
    Bismarck, ND
    Olympia-Tumwater, WA
    Raleigh, NC
    Trenton, NJ
    Anchorage, AK
    Kennewick-Richland, WA

    2.5x - 5.0x the national mean


    Mechanical engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Jackson, MI
    Dubuque, IA
    Monroe, MI
    New Bern, NC
    Bremerton-Silverdale, WA
    Mount Vernon-Anacortes, WA
    Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI

    3.4x - 7.9 x national means


    Industrial engineers:

    Columbus, IN
    Oshkosh-Neenah, WI
    Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI
    Sheboygan, WI
    Peoria, IL
    Racine, WI
    Elkhart-Goshen, IN
    Huntsville, AL
    Decatur, AL
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL


    2.8x - 6.5x national means


    Electrical engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Huntsville, AL
    Monroe, MI
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Tucson, AZ
    Pittsfield, MA
    Kennewick-Richland, WA
    Burlington-South Burlington, VT

    2.4x - 10.2x


    Electronics engineers, not computer:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Warner Robins, GA
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Boulder, CO
    Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA
    Huntsville, AL
    Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA
    Dayton, OH
    New Bern, NC
    Panama City, FL


    4.4x - 19.7x

    Computer hardware engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Fort Collins, CO
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    Boulder, CO
    Huntsville, AL
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Panama City, FL
    Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA

    2.8x - 14.2x


    Aerospace engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Huntsville, AL
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    New Bern, NC
    Boulder, CO
    Dayton, OH
    Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA
    Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Bakersfield, CA

    5.1x - 48.6x


    Environmental engineers:

    Kennewick-Richland, WA
    Jefferson City, MO
    Charleston, WV
    Sacramento--Roseville--Arden-Arcade, CA
    Carson City, NV
    Fairbanks, AK
    Trenton, NJ
    Bismarck, ND
    Sumter, SC
    Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC


    3.4x - 14.4x


    Looks like engineers are willing to live and work in provincial cities.

    Replies: @epebble, @Steve Sailer, @HammerJack

  107. @Art Deco
    @Forbes

    I think there are about 200,000 employed persons in Onondaga County. Syracuse University has about 5,000 employees. The population of Onondaga County has since 1980 declined by 0.7%. There isn't much of a downward spiral.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Jake Barnes, @Forbes

    The population of Onondaga County has since 1980 declined by 0.7%. There isn’t much of a downward spiral.

    The peak in the Onondaga County population was in 1970, while the Syracuse city population has declined by ~50,000 (48,688) since 1970.

    No evidence of intra-metropolitan migration. For Syracuse, that’s a 25% decline while the US grew 63%.

    I’d call that a downward spiral.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Forbes

    No evidence of intra-metropolitan migration. For Syracuse, that’s a 25% decline while the US grew 63%.

    If your core city declines in population but the surrounding county does not, that's net intra-metropolitan migration.

  108. @Polistra
    @S. Anonyia

    Even by upstate NY standards, Poughkeepsie is incredibly forlorn and depressing. Right across the river is Newburgh which is even worse. Judging from the buildings in both larger and smaller towns further upstate, NYS had a great run around 100 to 200 years ago. That's a long time.

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Sick 'n Tired

    You ever pick your feet in Poughkeepsie?

  109. @Polistra
    @S. Anonyia

    Even by upstate NY standards, Poughkeepsie is incredibly forlorn and depressing. Right across the river is Newburgh which is even worse. Judging from the buildings in both larger and smaller towns further upstate, NYS had a great run around 100 to 200 years ago. That's a long time.

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Sick 'n Tired

    Poughkeepsie is a shithole, but Newburgh and Hudson (east of Newburgh across the river) have seen a resurgence in recent years from young families moving up there, because the NYC area priced them out. Houses were relatively cheap (\$400k) and the train runs along the river right into Grand Central. Its a nice ride during fall when the leaves are changing, and only takes about an hour.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Sick 'n Tired


    Newburgh...
     
    ....is also home to Stewart International Airport (SWF), which was a joy to fly out of compared to Newark, JFK, LaGuardia, or Philly in the pre-WuFlu days.
  110. @Art Deco
    @AnotherDad

    It would be good for American blacks to have their own nation.

    You have 41 million blacks in this country. There is one 2d tier metropolis where they account for about half the population, a few small metropolitan settlements where they are the majority, and some blocs of rural counties in Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia where they are the majority.

    Replies: @BB

    350 million is too big for any democratic nation with wildly divergent populations and interests. A nation this big and diverse cannot be governed gently from the center – the government cannot make you feel it represents you. We need to either restore some local sovereignty or split up. Otherwise everyone, white and black and whatever, is going to feel oppressed by anyone that wins. If we do not figure this out, I see very bad things ahead. The country as it is organized has run its course.

  111. @Anonymous
    It may not be that Rochester failed because Kodak or Xerox did, it may be that Kodak failed and Xerox stagnated because Rochester did. If no one good wants to move to your city, if all the best people leave, your company will stagnate. Why would any good engineer move or stay in Rochester, as opposed to (then) Silicon Valley or Austin or Manhattan or wherever. Eventually that will degrade you. Corporations used to look out for their cities for a reason. Once Rochester went, the pool of new good people willing to work at Kodak or Xerox had to drop.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Jack D, @epebble, @Sick 'n Tired, @Art Deco

    It may not be that Rochester failed because Kodak or Xerox did, it may be that Kodak failed and Xerox stagnated because Rochester did. If no one good wants to move to your city, if all the best people leave, your company will stagnate. Why would any good engineer move or stay in Rochester, as opposed to (then) Silicon Valley or Austin or Manhattan or wherever. Eventually that will degrade you. Corporations used to look out for their cities for a reason. Once Rochester went, the pool of new good people willing to work at Kodak or Xerox had to drop.

    They’ll move there because (1) you can afford a house and (2) the commutes aren’t bad and (3) Austin, Manhattan, and SV have no amenities you care about that you cannot find in a 2d or 3d tier city. Also, people who grew up locally and want what is familiar stay.

    You all keep forgetting that 2/3 of those living in the tract development in Monroe County do not live in the core city and half of those living in the core city are not living in bad neighborhoods or sketchy neighborhoods.

    If no one good

    Sort of amused that there are people who think in binaries by default.

  112. @Forbes
    @Art Deco


    The population of Onondaga County has since 1980 declined by 0.7%. There isn’t much of a downward spiral.
     
    The peak in the Onondaga County population was in 1970, while the Syracuse city population has declined by ~50,000 (48,688) since 1970.

    No evidence of intra-metropolitan migration. For Syracuse, that's a 25% decline while the US grew 63%.

    I'd call that a downward spiral.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    No evidence of intra-metropolitan migration. For Syracuse, that’s a 25% decline while the US grew 63%.

    If your core city declines in population but the surrounding county does not, that’s net intra-metropolitan migration.

  113. @William Badwhite
    @res

    https://hbr.org/resources/images/article_assets/2021/06/R2104K_SLOMAN.jpg

    Smug, arrogant, and stupid. Quite a combination.

    When I was CEO, the job was relatively easy.
     

    "The confidence of the idiot"

    You have to balance how much profit you make and how much cash you generate against how much of a positive impact you can have on society, your employees, and the communities where you do business.
     

    The Xerox board that hired this AA dolt should have all been sued into bankruptcy.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    A previous Xerox CEO wrote a book which his publishers thought apposite to try to market under the title Winning the Brain Race. People talented in business aren’t necessarily given to tasteful elegance in speech.

    • Replies: @bigdicknick
    @Art Deco

    was she talented in business? how did xerox do under her tenure?

    Replies: @Art Deco

  114. @Anonymous
    It may not be that Rochester failed because Kodak or Xerox did, it may be that Kodak failed and Xerox stagnated because Rochester did. If no one good wants to move to your city, if all the best people leave, your company will stagnate. Why would any good engineer move or stay in Rochester, as opposed to (then) Silicon Valley or Austin or Manhattan or wherever. Eventually that will degrade you. Corporations used to look out for their cities for a reason. Once Rochester went, the pool of new good people willing to work at Kodak or Xerox had to drop.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Jack D, @epebble, @Sick 'n Tired, @Art Deco

    1. Most companies and regions are like humans – they have a life cycle. They start out as young and vigorous and then they get old and tired and die. Someday Apple will be as tired as NCR and Amazon will be as defunct as Woolworths. And Silicon Valley will be as slumlike as Rochester.

    2. Rochester, like a lot of American cities, was just hollowed out – all the white people fled the inner city for the suburbs. If you look at the Rochester region as a whole, it’s doing fine. It’s a shame that the inner city is more or less a shithole but the life of the white people in the suburbs is not much affected by it.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Jack D

    And Silicon Valley will be as slumlike as Rochester.

    Slums encompass no more of the population of greater Rochester than they do of an average city.



    2. Rochester, like a lot of American cities, was just hollowed out – all the white people fled the inner city for the suburbs.

    They didn't and there remain large numbers of whites in the core city to this day.

    My parents were not 'fleeing' in 1957. They just thought they'd benefit from a larger house. Some people did flee crime and school disorder. For others, migration to the suburbs was a function of post-war affluence. More production, more real income, more real income manifest in land and square footage. One part of the city was chock-a-block with rickety structures in which multiple families lived. This part of town emptied out as one stratum moved outward to new construction and was then replaced by a stratum that had lived in more cramped housing closer in. Much of the net loss in population was from this chain reaction. Another segment resulted from the gradual transition to smaller households.

    Replies: @Anon87

  115. @Anonymous
    It may not be that Rochester failed because Kodak or Xerox did, it may be that Kodak failed and Xerox stagnated because Rochester did. If no one good wants to move to your city, if all the best people leave, your company will stagnate. Why would any good engineer move or stay in Rochester, as opposed to (then) Silicon Valley or Austin or Manhattan or wherever. Eventually that will degrade you. Corporations used to look out for their cities for a reason. Once Rochester went, the pool of new good people willing to work at Kodak or Xerox had to drop.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Jack D, @epebble, @Sick 'n Tired, @Art Deco

    I think once we transitioned to Post-industrial economy (technology and services), advantages like seaports went away. New industries that didn’t depend on past chose warmer places. Economy moved to coasts, and South and West. Midwest and New England with colder weather lost out (except NYC, for being very special due to being money center). There may also be some impact due to large number of Asians and immigrants working in modern Tech and service economies who don’t have any attachment to the interior heartland and stay closer to coasts for better weather and easier travel abroad.

  116. @Anonymous
    It may not be that Rochester failed because Kodak or Xerox did, it may be that Kodak failed and Xerox stagnated because Rochester did. If no one good wants to move to your city, if all the best people leave, your company will stagnate. Why would any good engineer move or stay in Rochester, as opposed to (then) Silicon Valley or Austin or Manhattan or wherever. Eventually that will degrade you. Corporations used to look out for their cities for a reason. Once Rochester went, the pool of new good people willing to work at Kodak or Xerox had to drop.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Jack D, @epebble, @Sick 'n Tired, @Art Deco

    The only thing keeping people living in Rochester is Wegmans, according to the few Rochester people I know who love that grocery store (which isn’t even that great IMO).

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Sick 'n Tired

    No, that is not what keeps people living in Rochester, although it is an attraction. People have homes and jobs and family and friends.

    , @Anon87
    @Sick 'n Tired

    I agree, Wegmans isn't all that great anymore. Frankly, I think they suck now and avoid it as much as possible. Similar to how the Japanese ate away at Xerox and Kodak, Marianos, Giant Eagle, etc have closed the grocery gap big time. If you ever travel out of Upstate NY you can see how other chains have copied and franky improved on the Wegmans model. But at least I can say this is domestic competition, versus an Asian takeover, so the benefits go to American consumers without the rot of offshoring.

    Replies: @2BR

  117. @Jack D
    @Anonymous

    1. Most companies and regions are like humans - they have a life cycle. They start out as young and vigorous and then they get old and tired and die. Someday Apple will be as tired as NCR and Amazon will be as defunct as Woolworths. And Silicon Valley will be as slumlike as Rochester.

    2. Rochester, like a lot of American cities, was just hollowed out - all the white people fled the inner city for the suburbs. If you look at the Rochester region as a whole, it's doing fine. It's a shame that the inner city is more or less a shithole but the life of the white people in the suburbs is not much affected by it.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    And Silicon Valley will be as slumlike as Rochester.

    Slums encompass no more of the population of greater Rochester than they do of an average city.

    2. Rochester, like a lot of American cities, was just hollowed out – all the white people fled the inner city for the suburbs.

    They didn’t and there remain large numbers of whites in the core city to this day.

    My parents were not ‘fleeing’ in 1957. They just thought they’d benefit from a larger house. Some people did flee crime and school disorder. For others, migration to the suburbs was a function of post-war affluence. More production, more real income, more real income manifest in land and square footage. One part of the city was chock-a-block with rickety structures in which multiple families lived. This part of town emptied out as one stratum moved outward to new construction and was then replaced by a stratum that had lived in more cramped housing closer in. Much of the net loss in population was from this chain reaction. Another segment resulted from the gradual transition to smaller households.

    • Replies: @Anon87
    @Art Deco

    Please, the riots caused massive white flight to the burbs and it has been no looking back. The whites downtown are students, green hair losers eeking out a low rent existance, or deluded empty nesters and grads living in ridiculous lofts.

    Roc used to have affordable housing in the burbs, but holy crap is there a bubble. Nice houses on the east side at only 1400 sq ft are going for $300k+, which is lunacy.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Art Deco

  118. @Sick 'n Tired
    @Anonymous

    The only thing keeping people living in Rochester is Wegmans, according to the few Rochester people I know who love that grocery store (which isn't even that great IMO).

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Anon87

    No, that is not what keeps people living in Rochester, although it is an attraction. People have homes and jobs and family and friends.

  119. @Sick 'n Tired
    @Polistra

    Poughkeepsie is a shithole, but Newburgh and Hudson (east of Newburgh across the river) have seen a resurgence in recent years from young families moving up there, because the NYC area priced them out. Houses were relatively cheap ($400k) and the train runs along the river right into Grand Central. Its a nice ride during fall when the leaves are changing, and only takes about an hour.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    Newburgh…

    ….is also home to Stewart International Airport (SWF), which was a joy to fly out of compared to Newark, JFK, LaGuardia, or Philly in the pre-WuFlu days.

    • Agree: Sick 'n Tired
  120. @Sick 'n Tired
    @Anonymous

    The only thing keeping people living in Rochester is Wegmans, according to the few Rochester people I know who love that grocery store (which isn't even that great IMO).

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Anon87

    I agree, Wegmans isn’t all that great anymore. Frankly, I think they suck now and avoid it as much as possible. Similar to how the Japanese ate away at Xerox and Kodak, Marianos, Giant Eagle, etc have closed the grocery gap big time. If you ever travel out of Upstate NY you can see how other chains have copied and franky improved on the Wegmans model. But at least I can say this is domestic competition, versus an Asian takeover, so the benefits go to American consumers without the rot of offshoring.

    • Replies: @2BR
    @Anon87

    Kodak was wiped out because they were making so much money on chemical film, they refused to stop to invest in and market what they actually had developed - the digital electronic camera. A far seeing company would have junked chemical film, taken a few tough quarters and led the way on digital. They couldn’t see it until it was too late - the film camera business collapsed very quickly. Kodak and Xerox both could have been Apple, but they could not value what they had invented. Asians did not beat them. They let themselves get lazy, relying on old products.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Anon87

  121. @Art Deco
    @Jack D

    And Silicon Valley will be as slumlike as Rochester.

    Slums encompass no more of the population of greater Rochester than they do of an average city.



    2. Rochester, like a lot of American cities, was just hollowed out – all the white people fled the inner city for the suburbs.

    They didn't and there remain large numbers of whites in the core city to this day.

    My parents were not 'fleeing' in 1957. They just thought they'd benefit from a larger house. Some people did flee crime and school disorder. For others, migration to the suburbs was a function of post-war affluence. More production, more real income, more real income manifest in land and square footage. One part of the city was chock-a-block with rickety structures in which multiple families lived. This part of town emptied out as one stratum moved outward to new construction and was then replaced by a stratum that had lived in more cramped housing closer in. Much of the net loss in population was from this chain reaction. Another segment resulted from the gradual transition to smaller households.

    Replies: @Anon87

    Please, the riots caused massive white flight to the burbs and it has been no looking back. The whites downtown are students, green hair losers eeking out a low rent existance, or deluded empty nesters and grads living in ridiculous lofts.

    Roc used to have affordable housing in the burbs, but holy crap is there a bubble. Nice houses on the east side at only 1400 sq ft are going for \$300k+, which is lunacy.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Anon87

    Please, the riots caused massive white flight to the burbs

    People move out to the suburbs for a half dozen different reasons. The core city's population was stagnant from 1930 to 1950 and began to decline in the early 1950s, before the riots. The most rapid implosion occurred during the 1970s, when there were no riots. (The decline during the 1960s was 7%, that during the 1970s 18%).

    Replies: @Anon87

    , @Art Deco
    @Anon87

    Roc used to have affordable housing in the burbs, but holy crap is there a bubble. Nice houses on the east side at only 1400 sq ft are going for $300k+, which is lunacy.


    Re-read his kvetch. Are you comparing Rochester's housing costs to housing costs generally, to housing costs in his preferred commuter belt, or to your a priori conception of what a house should cost?

    Replies: @Anon87

  122. @Anon87
    @Sick 'n Tired

    I agree, Wegmans isn't all that great anymore. Frankly, I think they suck now and avoid it as much as possible. Similar to how the Japanese ate away at Xerox and Kodak, Marianos, Giant Eagle, etc have closed the grocery gap big time. If you ever travel out of Upstate NY you can see how other chains have copied and franky improved on the Wegmans model. But at least I can say this is domestic competition, versus an Asian takeover, so the benefits go to American consumers without the rot of offshoring.

    Replies: @2BR

    Kodak was wiped out because they were making so much money on chemical film, they refused to stop to invest in and market what they actually had developed – the digital electronic camera. A far seeing company would have junked chemical film, taken a few tough quarters and led the way on digital. They couldn’t see it until it was too late – the film camera business collapsed very quickly. Kodak and Xerox both could have been Apple, but they could not value what they had invented. Asians did not beat them. They let themselves get lazy, relying on old products.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @2BR

    That was the last act. They'd actually cut their workforce in Rochester by about 2/3 before the market for ordinary cameras and film imploded.

    Replies: @2BR, @Anon87

    , @Anon87
    @2BR

    Pretty sure the US government forced Xerox to give up their IP, and the Japanese ran with it. Most printers they sell today come from Asia.

    Not to deny Xerox's management follies. Certainly fat, dumb, and lazy so Asia ate their lunch. And they could have grown the PC business which they invented, but any MBA can tell you that story so no need to rehash for the millionth time.

  123. @Anon87
    @Art Deco

    Please, the riots caused massive white flight to the burbs and it has been no looking back. The whites downtown are students, green hair losers eeking out a low rent existance, or deluded empty nesters and grads living in ridiculous lofts.

    Roc used to have affordable housing in the burbs, but holy crap is there a bubble. Nice houses on the east side at only 1400 sq ft are going for $300k+, which is lunacy.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Art Deco

    Please, the riots caused massive white flight to the burbs

    People move out to the suburbs for a half dozen different reasons. The core city’s population was stagnant from 1930 to 1950 and began to decline in the early 1950s, before the riots. The most rapid implosion occurred during the 1970s, when there were no riots. (The decline during the 1960s was 7%, that during the 1970s 18%).

    • Replies: @Anon87
    @Art Deco

    I don't think riots need to be continously happening for it to be the direct cause of white flight in ROC. No BLM riots happening now, but the ripple effect of violence continues and probably will for a while. I may poke around at demographic numbers, because I suspect whites left very quickly. Census numbers might be misleading since the riots were late 60s.

    Replies: @charles w abbott, @Art Deco

  124. @2BR
    @Anon87

    Kodak was wiped out because they were making so much money on chemical film, they refused to stop to invest in and market what they actually had developed - the digital electronic camera. A far seeing company would have junked chemical film, taken a few tough quarters and led the way on digital. They couldn’t see it until it was too late - the film camera business collapsed very quickly. Kodak and Xerox both could have been Apple, but they could not value what they had invented. Asians did not beat them. They let themselves get lazy, relying on old products.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Anon87

    That was the last act. They’d actually cut their workforce in Rochester by about 2/3 before the market for ordinary cameras and film imploded.

    • Replies: @2BR
    @Art Deco

    To be clearer on my compressed timeline: Kodak invented the first digital camera in 1975 (!) and the engineer who invented it said Kodak had no interest in it, as it was film-less and Kodak’s entire business model was based on cheap cameras and selling film. Kodak was decades ahead of everyone at that point. The Japanese eventually discovered the technology. When Kodak realized what was happening, it was too late. In 2004, Kodak announced it would stop the sale of film cameras. 15,000 employees were made redundant and the numbers dropped very quickly from there. They could never catch up and went bankrupt in 2012. But it did not have to be that way.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    , @Anon87
    @Art Deco

    Agreed. And in hindsight, digital cameras would have only delayed the decline (market has collapsed due to cell phone cameras).

    They probably shouldn't have spun off any adjacent businesses (like Eastman Chemical), instead kept them in-house for more diverse lines of business and revenue streams to take up the slack as film declined. All eggs went into one basket though.

  125. @Art Deco
    @2BR

    That was the last act. They'd actually cut their workforce in Rochester by about 2/3 before the market for ordinary cameras and film imploded.

    Replies: @2BR, @Anon87

    To be clearer on my compressed timeline: Kodak invented the first digital camera in 1975 (!) and the engineer who invented it said Kodak had no interest in it, as it was film-less and Kodak’s entire business model was based on cheap cameras and selling film. Kodak was decades ahead of everyone at that point. The Japanese eventually discovered the technology. When Kodak realized what was happening, it was too late. In 2004, Kodak announced it would stop the sale of film cameras. 15,000 employees were made redundant and the numbers dropped very quickly from there. They could never catch up and went bankrupt in 2012. But it did not have to be that way.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @2BR


    The Japanese eventually discovered the technology. When Kodak realized what was happening, it was too late. In 2004, Kodak announced it would stop the sale of film cameras.
     
    I seem to remember that Kodak had an alliance with Nikon to produce digital cameras in those days, but it seemed a half-hearted effort at best.
  126. @Art Deco
    @2BR

    That was the last act. They'd actually cut their workforce in Rochester by about 2/3 before the market for ordinary cameras and film imploded.

    Replies: @2BR, @Anon87

    Agreed. And in hindsight, digital cameras would have only delayed the decline (market has collapsed due to cell phone cameras).

    They probably shouldn’t have spun off any adjacent businesses (like Eastman Chemical), instead kept them in-house for more diverse lines of business and revenue streams to take up the slack as film declined. All eggs went into one basket though.

  127. @2BR
    @Anon87

    Kodak was wiped out because they were making so much money on chemical film, they refused to stop to invest in and market what they actually had developed - the digital electronic camera. A far seeing company would have junked chemical film, taken a few tough quarters and led the way on digital. They couldn’t see it until it was too late - the film camera business collapsed very quickly. Kodak and Xerox both could have been Apple, but they could not value what they had invented. Asians did not beat them. They let themselves get lazy, relying on old products.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Anon87

    Pretty sure the US government forced Xerox to give up their IP, and the Japanese ran with it. Most printers they sell today come from Asia.

    Not to deny Xerox’s management follies. Certainly fat, dumb, and lazy so Asia ate their lunch. And they could have grown the PC business which they invented, but any MBA can tell you that story so no need to rehash for the millionth time.

  128. @Art Deco
    @Anon87

    Please, the riots caused massive white flight to the burbs

    People move out to the suburbs for a half dozen different reasons. The core city's population was stagnant from 1930 to 1950 and began to decline in the early 1950s, before the riots. The most rapid implosion occurred during the 1970s, when there were no riots. (The decline during the 1960s was 7%, that during the 1970s 18%).

    Replies: @Anon87

    I don’t think riots need to be continously happening for it to be the direct cause of white flight in ROC. No BLM riots happening now, but the ripple effect of violence continues and probably will for a while. I may poke around at demographic numbers, because I suspect whites left very quickly. Census numbers might be misleading since the riots were late 60s.

    • Replies: @charles w abbott
    @Anon87

    The riots in Rochester NY occurred early (relatively) in the 1960s--it was the summer of 1964. The proximate cause was policing issues. It is also claimed that Black migrants were crowded into small neighborhoods and found it difficult to rent housing elsewhere.

    Rochester has its own wiki--it's not gigantic but you can find some things there, "at your fingertips."

    https://rocwiki.org/1964_Race_Riot

    = - = - = - =

    There is so very much to discuss here. It is my fervent wish that Sir Steve keeps the comment window open long enough for us to have a rollicking discussion for some days yet.

    = - = - = - =

    Steve probably knows in the back of his head that Cornell University is not really all that old.

    It was founded in 1865, when two thirds of the 19th century had already gone past. I'm not sure that's either here nor there.

    Cornell University has a college of "Industrial Labor Relations" or ILR because the founder had genuine concerns about the class warfare that seemed a possibility during the Gilded Age. Someone has written about this, doubtless.

    to demonstrate that 1865 is "late" by historical standards, I'll point out that Cornell College in Mount Vermon, Iowa was founded 2 years before Cornell University in Ithaca, NY. Coe College in Cedar Rapids Iowa has its founding in 1850. Oberlin was founded earlier.

    Perhaps colleges and universities in that era didn't have much to do with industry. German universities helped spur German industrial innovation in the mid 1800s--perhaps that didn't really much happen here.

    = - = - = - =

    Steve is correct that most of Western New York State has a New England feel to it, because it was originally settled by New Englanders moving west. Rochester is thus part of the "Yankee" or "Puritan" expansion from New England into the Upper Midwest.

    A paradigmatic example is Northern Ohio's "Western Reserve," settled by people from Connecticut.

    This has cultural implications but also economic implications. New York State's "Middle Mohawk" zone was full of smallish factories producing non-durable consumer goods. You can imagine those cities to be rather like New England mill towns. You would be correct to imagine those Middle Mohawk" cities having the same experience of industrial decline from the production moving south to places like the Carolinas, and then overseas.

    Rochester lucked out by having a more robust industrial heritage.

    = - = - = - =

    As a general observation, Rochester lacks any good comprehensive history in book form that does a good job covering the last 50 or 60 years.


    Former City Historian Blake McKelvey wrote a multivolume history of Rochester but it doesn't really cover events in the 1960s very well. He did write an interesting biography of Joe Wilson of Xerox fame. _Business as a profession: The career of Joseph C. Wilson, the founder of Xerox_.

    _Rochester on the Genesee: the growth of a city_ came out in 1973. It was re-released in 1983 to mark the 150th anniversary of the city's founding, but there is no single book you can pick up with "good narrative drive" to learn about recent events in Rochester.

    In that sense, Buffalo has the historian Mark Goldman who has done very useful work on recent Buffalo history. There is no similar work on Rochester that fills that same role.

    https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781615923922/City-on-the-Lake-The-Challenge-of-Change-in-Buffalo-New-York

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Anon87

    , @Art Deco
    @Anon87

    I don’t think riots need to be continously happening for it to be the direct cause of white flight in ROC.

    If the implosion is more rapid in 1975 than it was in 1966, that's likely not the salient vector.

    Replies: @Anon87

  129. @Anon87
    @Art Deco

    I don't think riots need to be continously happening for it to be the direct cause of white flight in ROC. No BLM riots happening now, but the ripple effect of violence continues and probably will for a while. I may poke around at demographic numbers, because I suspect whites left very quickly. Census numbers might be misleading since the riots were late 60s.

    Replies: @charles w abbott, @Art Deco

    The riots in Rochester NY occurred early (relatively) in the 1960s–it was the summer of 1964. The proximate cause was policing issues. It is also claimed that Black migrants were crowded into small neighborhoods and found it difficult to rent housing elsewhere.

    Rochester has its own wiki–it’s not gigantic but you can find some things there, “at your fingertips.”

    https://rocwiki.org/1964_Race_Riot

    = – = – = – =

    There is so very much to discuss here. It is my fervent wish that Sir Steve keeps the comment window open long enough for us to have a rollicking discussion for some days yet.

    = – = – = – =

    Steve probably knows in the back of his head that Cornell University is not really all that old.

    It was founded in 1865, when two thirds of the 19th century had already gone past. I’m not sure that’s either here nor there.

    Cornell University has a college of “Industrial Labor Relations” or ILR because the founder had genuine concerns about the class warfare that seemed a possibility during the Gilded Age. Someone has written about this, doubtless.

    to demonstrate that 1865 is “late” by historical standards, I’ll point out that Cornell College in Mount Vermon, Iowa was founded 2 years before Cornell University in Ithaca, NY. Coe College in Cedar Rapids Iowa has its founding in 1850. Oberlin was founded earlier.

    Perhaps colleges and universities in that era didn’t have much to do with industry. German universities helped spur German industrial innovation in the mid 1800s–perhaps that didn’t really much happen here.

    = – = – = – =

    Steve is correct that most of Western New York State has a New England feel to it, because it was originally settled by New Englanders moving west. Rochester is thus part of the “Yankee” or “Puritan” expansion from New England into the Upper Midwest.

    A paradigmatic example is Northern Ohio’s “Western Reserve,” settled by people from Connecticut.

    This has cultural implications but also economic implications. New York State’s “Middle Mohawk” zone was full of smallish factories producing non-durable consumer goods. You can imagine those cities to be rather like New England mill towns. You would be correct to imagine those Middle Mohawk” cities having the same experience of industrial decline from the production moving south to places like the Carolinas, and then overseas.

    Rochester lucked out by having a more robust industrial heritage.

    = – = – = – =

    As a general observation, Rochester lacks any good comprehensive history in book form that does a good job covering the last 50 or 60 years.

    Former City Historian Blake McKelvey wrote a multivolume history of Rochester but it doesn’t really cover events in the 1960s very well. He did write an interesting biography of Joe Wilson of Xerox fame. _Business as a profession: The career of Joseph C. Wilson, the founder of Xerox_.

    _Rochester on the Genesee: the growth of a city_ came out in 1973. It was re-released in 1983 to mark the 150th anniversary of the city’s founding, but there is no single book you can pick up with “good narrative drive” to learn about recent events in Rochester.

    In that sense, Buffalo has the historian Mark Goldman who has done very useful work on recent Buffalo history. There is no similar work on Rochester that fills that same role.

    https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781615923922/City-on-the-Lake-The-Challenge-of-Change-in-Buffalo-New-York

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @charles w abbott


    Rochester lucked out by having a more robust industrial heritage.
     
    I'd posit that Rochester has been able to pivot away from Kodak and Xerox fairly well because the University of Rochester and RIT are both formidable universities, though it is quite disturbing how the U of R Health System appears to be devouring just about every bit of empty office space and real estate available.

    Replies: @Anon87

    , @Anon87
    @charles w abbott

    Ahh, RocWiki. I am afraid it is much less updated than it used to be, which seems to be similar to a lot of older, useful webpages.

    I think the lack of good news, either racial or economic, kills the need for a comprehensive historical look at the last 50 years. Unless the reader is a masocist.

  130. @Anon87
    @Art Deco

    I don't think riots need to be continously happening for it to be the direct cause of white flight in ROC. No BLM riots happening now, but the ripple effect of violence continues and probably will for a while. I may poke around at demographic numbers, because I suspect whites left very quickly. Census numbers might be misleading since the riots were late 60s.

    Replies: @charles w abbott, @Art Deco

    I don’t think riots need to be continously happening for it to be the direct cause of white flight in ROC.

    If the implosion is more rapid in 1975 than it was in 1966, that’s likely not the salient vector.

    • Replies: @Anon87
    @Art Deco

    Reasonable point. Potential theory is that the surrounding suburbs weren't built yet to escape the city, so lots of demand but not enough supply yet. I'd need yearly zip code population and building permit info to support that, but I'm not trying to write a book here either! So just speculation on my part.

    While the exodus had already started pre-riots, the riots most likely accelerated the inevitable. Once Southern blacks moved to Rochester the die was cast.

  131. @Anon87
    @Art Deco

    Please, the riots caused massive white flight to the burbs and it has been no looking back. The whites downtown are students, green hair losers eeking out a low rent existance, or deluded empty nesters and grads living in ridiculous lofts.

    Roc used to have affordable housing in the burbs, but holy crap is there a bubble. Nice houses on the east side at only 1400 sq ft are going for $300k+, which is lunacy.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Art Deco

    Roc used to have affordable housing in the burbs, but holy crap is there a bubble. Nice houses on the east side at only 1400 sq ft are going for \$300k+, which is lunacy.

    Re-read his kvetch. Are you comparing Rochester’s housing costs to housing costs generally, to housing costs in his preferred commuter belt, or to your a priori conception of what a house should cost?

    • Replies: @Anon87
    @Art Deco

    Comparing housing costs in Rochester's suburbs over the decades, as a native to the area.

  132. @Anonymous
    It may not be that Rochester failed because Kodak or Xerox did, it may be that Kodak failed and Xerox stagnated because Rochester did. If no one good wants to move to your city, if all the best people leave, your company will stagnate. Why would any good engineer move or stay in Rochester, as opposed to (then) Silicon Valley or Austin or Manhattan or wherever. Eventually that will degrade you. Corporations used to look out for their cities for a reason. Once Rochester went, the pool of new good people willing to work at Kodak or Xerox had to drop.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Jack D, @epebble, @Sick 'n Tired, @Art Deco

    While we’re at it, the Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes data on the ratio of working engineers to the total workforce is various commuter belts. The commuter belts where that ratio is highest would be as follows:

    Civil engineers:

    Fairbanks, AK
    Carson City, NV
    Yuba City, CA
    Walla Walla, WA
    Bismarck, ND
    Olympia-Tumwater, WA
    Raleigh, NC
    Trenton, NJ
    Anchorage, AK
    Kennewick-Richland, WA

    2.5x – 5.0x the national mean

    Mechanical engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Jackson, MI
    Dubuque, IA
    Monroe, MI
    New Bern, NC
    Bremerton-Silverdale, WA
    Mount Vernon-Anacortes, WA
    Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI

    3.4x – 7.9 x national means

    Industrial engineers:

    Columbus, IN
    Oshkosh-Neenah, WI
    Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI
    Sheboygan, WI
    Peoria, IL
    Racine, WI
    Elkhart-Goshen, IN
    Huntsville, AL
    Decatur, AL
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL

    2.8x – 6.5x national means

    Electrical engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Huntsville, AL
    Monroe, MI
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Tucson, AZ
    Pittsfield, MA
    Kennewick-Richland, WA
    Burlington-South Burlington, VT

    2.4x – 10.2x

    Electronics engineers, not computer:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Warner Robins, GA
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Boulder, CO
    Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA
    Huntsville, AL
    Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA
    Dayton, OH
    New Bern, NC
    Panama City, FL

    4.4x – 19.7x

    Computer hardware engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Fort Collins, CO
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    Boulder, CO
    Huntsville, AL
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Panama City, FL
    Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA

    2.8x – 14.2x

    Aerospace engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Huntsville, AL
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    New Bern, NC
    Boulder, CO
    Dayton, OH
    Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA
    Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Bakersfield, CA

    5.1x – 48.6x

    Environmental engineers:

    Kennewick-Richland, WA
    Jefferson City, MO
    Charleston, WV
    Sacramento–Roseville–Arden-Arcade, CA
    Carson City, NV
    Fairbanks, AK
    Trenton, NJ
    Bismarck, ND
    Sumter, SC
    Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC

    3.4x – 14.4x

    Looks like engineers are willing to live and work in provincial cities.

    • Replies: @epebble
    @Art Deco

    I think this list mostly consists of traditional "Making stuff" engineers famous for building 20th Century. Many are typically P.E. (Professional Engineers). The original poster was probably thinking of "modern" engineers like those who make iPhone, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook run. The so called "Hi-Tech" venerated by the public.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Art Deco

    Engineers tend to like having a house with a yard and a garage and proximity to outdoor recreation like hiking: e.g., Palo Alto in 1970 rather than San Francisco in 2021.

    , @HammerJack
    @Art Deco


    Looks like engineers are willing to live and work in provincial cities.
     
    No one denied that, you silly sperg. The argument was that superior engineering talent would naturally gravitate toward superior situations, and locales. Is that really so hard to understand? It's normal human behavior.

    Just as it's normal human behavior to avoid living in the armpit of the continent if you can.. And most of us can.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  133. @Art Deco
    @Anonymous

    While we're at it, the Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes data on the ratio of working engineers to the total workforce is various commuter belts. The commuter belts where that ratio is highest would be as follows:

    Civil engineers:

    Fairbanks, AK
    Carson City, NV
    Yuba City, CA
    Walla Walla, WA
    Bismarck, ND
    Olympia-Tumwater, WA
    Raleigh, NC
    Trenton, NJ
    Anchorage, AK
    Kennewick-Richland, WA

    2.5x - 5.0x the national mean


    Mechanical engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Jackson, MI
    Dubuque, IA
    Monroe, MI
    New Bern, NC
    Bremerton-Silverdale, WA
    Mount Vernon-Anacortes, WA
    Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI

    3.4x - 7.9 x national means


    Industrial engineers:

    Columbus, IN
    Oshkosh-Neenah, WI
    Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI
    Sheboygan, WI
    Peoria, IL
    Racine, WI
    Elkhart-Goshen, IN
    Huntsville, AL
    Decatur, AL
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL


    2.8x - 6.5x national means


    Electrical engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Huntsville, AL
    Monroe, MI
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Tucson, AZ
    Pittsfield, MA
    Kennewick-Richland, WA
    Burlington-South Burlington, VT

    2.4x - 10.2x


    Electronics engineers, not computer:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Warner Robins, GA
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Boulder, CO
    Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA
    Huntsville, AL
    Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA
    Dayton, OH
    New Bern, NC
    Panama City, FL


    4.4x - 19.7x

    Computer hardware engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Fort Collins, CO
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    Boulder, CO
    Huntsville, AL
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Panama City, FL
    Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA

    2.8x - 14.2x


    Aerospace engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Huntsville, AL
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    New Bern, NC
    Boulder, CO
    Dayton, OH
    Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA
    Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Bakersfield, CA

    5.1x - 48.6x


    Environmental engineers:

    Kennewick-Richland, WA
    Jefferson City, MO
    Charleston, WV
    Sacramento--Roseville--Arden-Arcade, CA
    Carson City, NV
    Fairbanks, AK
    Trenton, NJ
    Bismarck, ND
    Sumter, SC
    Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC


    3.4x - 14.4x


    Looks like engineers are willing to live and work in provincial cities.

    Replies: @epebble, @Steve Sailer, @HammerJack

    I think this list mostly consists of traditional “Making stuff” engineers famous for building 20th Century. Many are typically P.E. (Professional Engineers). The original poster was probably thinking of “modern” engineers like those who make iPhone, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook run. The so called “Hi-Tech” venerated by the public.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @epebble

    There are as we speak about 1.78 million engineers and architects in this country. The majority of engineers fit into the categories I offer you, with the most populous first (civil engineers, 300,000 in number) and the least populous (aerospace, 60,000 in number) last. Of course, there are smaller sets I did not list (e.g. petroleum engineers). Computer hardware engineers are listed, btw.


    I think you're talking about those in computer occupations, who are not usually called engineers (and there's no official category of 'software engineer'). The most numerous of nine computer occupations listed would be software developers and allied. They number 1.48 million. Here's the ranked list

    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA
    Boulder, CO
    Bloomington, IL
    Huntsville, AL
    Durham-Chapel Hill, NC
    San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA
    Madison, WI
    Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV
    Cedar Rapids, IA

    2.3x - 6.6x

    That's more consistent with his thesis, but I'm still seeing 3d tier and 4th tier cities on this list.


    In terms of population, the 2d ranking category is 'support specialists' (634,000)

    Carson City, NV
    Sacramento--Roseville--Arden-Arcade, CA
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Lansing-East Lansing, MI
    Ithaca, NY
    Boulder, CO
    Durham-Chapel Hill, NC
    Austin-Round Rock, TX
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Provo-Orem, UT

    1.9x - 4.2x


    The 3d most populous is 'systems analysts'

    Bloomington, IL
    California-Lexington Park, MD
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Des Moines-West Des Moines, IA
    Ames, IA
    Pittsfield, MA
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Raleigh, NC
    Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia, NC-SC
    Springfield, IL


    2.3x - 12.7x

  134. @Art Deco
    @William Badwhite

    A previous Xerox CEO wrote a book which his publishers thought apposite to try to market under the title Winning the Brain Race. People talented in business aren't necessarily given to tasteful elegance in speech.

    Replies: @bigdicknick

    was she talented in business? how did xerox do under her tenure?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @bigdicknick

    No clue. Likely a hack who came and went, but I wouldn't judge her performance on a bit of muddled phraseology she offered.

  135. @Art Deco
    @Anonymous

    While we're at it, the Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes data on the ratio of working engineers to the total workforce is various commuter belts. The commuter belts where that ratio is highest would be as follows:

    Civil engineers:

    Fairbanks, AK
    Carson City, NV
    Yuba City, CA
    Walla Walla, WA
    Bismarck, ND
    Olympia-Tumwater, WA
    Raleigh, NC
    Trenton, NJ
    Anchorage, AK
    Kennewick-Richland, WA

    2.5x - 5.0x the national mean


    Mechanical engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Jackson, MI
    Dubuque, IA
    Monroe, MI
    New Bern, NC
    Bremerton-Silverdale, WA
    Mount Vernon-Anacortes, WA
    Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI

    3.4x - 7.9 x national means


    Industrial engineers:

    Columbus, IN
    Oshkosh-Neenah, WI
    Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI
    Sheboygan, WI
    Peoria, IL
    Racine, WI
    Elkhart-Goshen, IN
    Huntsville, AL
    Decatur, AL
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL


    2.8x - 6.5x national means


    Electrical engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Huntsville, AL
    Monroe, MI
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Tucson, AZ
    Pittsfield, MA
    Kennewick-Richland, WA
    Burlington-South Burlington, VT

    2.4x - 10.2x


    Electronics engineers, not computer:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Warner Robins, GA
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Boulder, CO
    Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA
    Huntsville, AL
    Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA
    Dayton, OH
    New Bern, NC
    Panama City, FL


    4.4x - 19.7x

    Computer hardware engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Fort Collins, CO
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    Boulder, CO
    Huntsville, AL
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Panama City, FL
    Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA

    2.8x - 14.2x


    Aerospace engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Huntsville, AL
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    New Bern, NC
    Boulder, CO
    Dayton, OH
    Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA
    Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Bakersfield, CA

    5.1x - 48.6x


    Environmental engineers:

    Kennewick-Richland, WA
    Jefferson City, MO
    Charleston, WV
    Sacramento--Roseville--Arden-Arcade, CA
    Carson City, NV
    Fairbanks, AK
    Trenton, NJ
    Bismarck, ND
    Sumter, SC
    Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC


    3.4x - 14.4x


    Looks like engineers are willing to live and work in provincial cities.

    Replies: @epebble, @Steve Sailer, @HammerJack

    Engineers tend to like having a house with a yard and a garage and proximity to outdoor recreation like hiking: e.g., Palo Alto in 1970 rather than San Francisco in 2021.

  136. @Art Deco
    @Anonymous

    While we're at it, the Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes data on the ratio of working engineers to the total workforce is various commuter belts. The commuter belts where that ratio is highest would be as follows:

    Civil engineers:

    Fairbanks, AK
    Carson City, NV
    Yuba City, CA
    Walla Walla, WA
    Bismarck, ND
    Olympia-Tumwater, WA
    Raleigh, NC
    Trenton, NJ
    Anchorage, AK
    Kennewick-Richland, WA

    2.5x - 5.0x the national mean


    Mechanical engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Jackson, MI
    Dubuque, IA
    Monroe, MI
    New Bern, NC
    Bremerton-Silverdale, WA
    Mount Vernon-Anacortes, WA
    Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI

    3.4x - 7.9 x national means


    Industrial engineers:

    Columbus, IN
    Oshkosh-Neenah, WI
    Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI
    Sheboygan, WI
    Peoria, IL
    Racine, WI
    Elkhart-Goshen, IN
    Huntsville, AL
    Decatur, AL
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL


    2.8x - 6.5x national means


    Electrical engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Huntsville, AL
    Monroe, MI
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Tucson, AZ
    Pittsfield, MA
    Kennewick-Richland, WA
    Burlington-South Burlington, VT

    2.4x - 10.2x


    Electronics engineers, not computer:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Warner Robins, GA
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Boulder, CO
    Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA
    Huntsville, AL
    Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA
    Dayton, OH
    New Bern, NC
    Panama City, FL


    4.4x - 19.7x

    Computer hardware engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Fort Collins, CO
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    Boulder, CO
    Huntsville, AL
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Panama City, FL
    Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA

    2.8x - 14.2x


    Aerospace engineers:

    California-Lexington Park, MD
    Huntsville, AL
    Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL
    New Bern, NC
    Boulder, CO
    Dayton, OH
    Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA
    Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Bakersfield, CA

    5.1x - 48.6x


    Environmental engineers:

    Kennewick-Richland, WA
    Jefferson City, MO
    Charleston, WV
    Sacramento--Roseville--Arden-Arcade, CA
    Carson City, NV
    Fairbanks, AK
    Trenton, NJ
    Bismarck, ND
    Sumter, SC
    Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC


    3.4x - 14.4x


    Looks like engineers are willing to live and work in provincial cities.

    Replies: @epebble, @Steve Sailer, @HammerJack

    Looks like engineers are willing to live and work in provincial cities.

    No one denied that, you silly sperg. The argument was that superior engineering talent would naturally gravitate toward superior situations, and locales. Is that really so hard to understand? It’s normal human behavior.

    Just as it’s normal human behavior to avoid living in the armpit of the continent if you can.. And most of us can.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @HammerJack

    No one denied that, you silly sperg.

    Go back and read his complaint.


    The argument was that superior engineering talent would naturally gravitate toward superior situations, and locales. Is that really so hard to understand? It’s normal human behavior.

    He offered no argument, nor is your statement a reasonable gloss on what he did say.

    Whether a situation is 'superior' or 'inferior' is going to depend on the taste preferences of the engineer in question. That aside, since Rochester had consequential businesses built by locals (George Eastman and Joseph C. Wilson to name two), evidently it was satisfactory for the sort of engineering talent necessary to build those businesses (whether that talent meets your understanding of 'superior' or not). Question: why not anymore? There's an answer to that, but not the one he offers.

    Replies: @HammerJack

  137. @bigdicknick
    @Art Deco

    was she talented in business? how did xerox do under her tenure?

    Replies: @Art Deco

    No clue. Likely a hack who came and went, but I wouldn’t judge her performance on a bit of muddled phraseology she offered.

  138. @HammerJack
    @Art Deco


    Looks like engineers are willing to live and work in provincial cities.
     
    No one denied that, you silly sperg. The argument was that superior engineering talent would naturally gravitate toward superior situations, and locales. Is that really so hard to understand? It's normal human behavior.

    Just as it's normal human behavior to avoid living in the armpit of the continent if you can.. And most of us can.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    No one denied that, you silly sperg.

    Go back and read his complaint.

    The argument was that superior engineering talent would naturally gravitate toward superior situations, and locales. Is that really so hard to understand? It’s normal human behavior.

    He offered no argument, nor is your statement a reasonable gloss on what he did say.

    Whether a situation is ‘superior’ or ‘inferior’ is going to depend on the taste preferences of the engineer in question. That aside, since Rochester had consequential businesses built by locals (George Eastman and Joseph C. Wilson to name two), evidently it was satisfactory for the sort of engineering talent necessary to build those businesses (whether that talent meets your understanding of ‘superior’ or not). Question: why not anymore? There’s an answer to that, but not the one he offers.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @Art Deco

    Superior people generally gravitate toward superior options. No matter how you define them. This really needs explaining? And reiterating?

    A couple of generations ago, there were far fewer high-quality job options in the sun belt and coastal California. But times have changed.

    You keep referring to two companies which were founded in Rochester the better part of 100 years ago. Those times are long gone, pal. That whole region is a has-been, and attracts no one who has better options.

    Pretty much everyone has better options now.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  139. @epebble
    @Art Deco

    I think this list mostly consists of traditional "Making stuff" engineers famous for building 20th Century. Many are typically P.E. (Professional Engineers). The original poster was probably thinking of "modern" engineers like those who make iPhone, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook run. The so called "Hi-Tech" venerated by the public.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    There are as we speak about 1.78 million engineers and architects in this country. The majority of engineers fit into the categories I offer you, with the most populous first (civil engineers, 300,000 in number) and the least populous (aerospace, 60,000 in number) last. Of course, there are smaller sets I did not list (e.g. petroleum engineers). Computer hardware engineers are listed, btw.

    I think you’re talking about those in computer occupations, who are not usually called engineers (and there’s no official category of ‘software engineer’). The most numerous of nine computer occupations listed would be software developers and allied. They number 1.48 million. Here’s the ranked list

    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA
    Boulder, CO
    Bloomington, IL
    Huntsville, AL
    Durham-Chapel Hill, NC
    San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA
    Madison, WI
    Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV
    Cedar Rapids, IA

    2.3x – 6.6x

    That’s more consistent with his thesis, but I’m still seeing 3d tier and 4th tier cities on this list.

    In terms of population, the 2d ranking category is ‘support specialists’ (634,000)

    Carson City, NV
    Sacramento–Roseville–Arden-Arcade, CA
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Lansing-East Lansing, MI
    Ithaca, NY
    Boulder, CO
    Durham-Chapel Hill, NC
    Austin-Round Rock, TX
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Provo-Orem, UT

    1.9x – 4.2x

    The 3d most populous is ‘systems analysts’

    Bloomington, IL
    California-Lexington Park, MD
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA
    Des Moines-West Des Moines, IA
    Ames, IA
    Pittsfield, MA
    Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL
    Raleigh, NC
    Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia, NC-SC
    Springfield, IL

    2.3x – 12.7x

    • Thanks: epebble
  140. Based on the Rochester history, as told in the nyt, “black capitalism” is an oxymoron. These weren’t “capitalists,” they were black supremacist extortionists.

    Note that one must translate the nyt’s newspeak, e.g., “demonstrations,” whether 50 years ago or last year, means riots. Likewise, as someone else noted, whenever the ‘reporter” says that black capitalism failed due to “racism,” without providing any evidence, that’s just another fraudulent racial socialist tic. “black capitalism” was completely dependent on White support. How then, could “racism” (i.e., White people) be responsible for its failure?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Nicholas Stix

    I suspect if you unpacked it, there wasn't much extortion if any. The aspirant extortionists (e.g. the late James McCuller and his sidekick Franklin Florence) never had the chops to run a business of any description. (McCuller ran a grant-funded social work agency). It was a patronage-dependent business that shut down when the patronage evaporated.


    See TS Eliot:

    “Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm; but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves.”


    Rochester's blacks would have benefited from quality public services. Housing, business contracts, and commercial and industrial credit are not public services. Primary and secondary schooling are such only due to distributional concerns. The quality of primary and secondary schooling declined precipitously due to the collapse of fixed standards of performance and behavior; that of daily street life did so because there was an ineffectual response to the sort of cultural decay generating more disorder. (The welfare system was much more adept at generating employment for social workers than it was at improving the real incomes of impecunious families). More than 40 years later, the political class in Monroe County had learned zippo from their own experience and those of other loci.

    Replies: @charles w abbott

  141. @Nicholas Stix
    Based on the Rochester history, as told in the nyt, “black capitalism” is an oxymoron. These weren’t “capitalists,” they were black supremacist extortionists.

    Note that one must translate the nyt’s newspeak, e.g., “demonstrations,” whether 50 years ago or last year, means riots. Likewise, as someone else noted, whenever the ‘reporter” says that black capitalism failed due to “racism,” without providing any evidence, that’s just another fraudulent racial socialist tic. "black capitalism" was completely dependent on White support. How then, could "racism" (i.e., White people) be responsible for its failure?

    Replies: @Art Deco

    I suspect if you unpacked it, there wasn’t much extortion if any. The aspirant extortionists (e.g. the late James McCuller and his sidekick Franklin Florence) never had the chops to run a business of any description. (McCuller ran a grant-funded social work agency). It was a patronage-dependent business that shut down when the patronage evaporated.

    See TS Eliot:

    “Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don’t mean to do harm; but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves.”

    Rochester’s blacks would have benefited from quality public services. Housing, business contracts, and commercial and industrial credit are not public services. Primary and secondary schooling are such only due to distributional concerns. The quality of primary and secondary schooling declined precipitously due to the collapse of fixed standards of performance and behavior; that of daily street life did so because there was an ineffectual response to the sort of cultural decay generating more disorder. (The welfare system was much more adept at generating employment for social workers than it was at improving the real incomes of impecunious families). More than 40 years later, the political class in Monroe County had learned zippo from their own experience and those of other loci.

    • Replies: @charles w abbott
    @Art Deco

    I will argue that the Black and Puerto Rican urban poor of Rochester are failed by public sector institutions (k-12 education, policing, criminal justice) more than they are failed or exploited or "kept down" by the private sector

    Is "the man" keeping you down? Who is "the man" these days? It's the tangle of producer interests that keeps Rochester city children in inferior public schools, for example. Maybe some kids "aren't into book learning" and should just be allowed to spend more time in the labor market, where they might learn something on the job and pick up useful skills and attitudes from the older people who supervise their work.

    The cultural scold Mark Bauerlein makes that point in _The dumbest generation_: traditionally young people worked in an environment where they were supervised by an older cohort that managed and or trained them, at least informally.

    The minimum wage may keep such kids from getting a first honest job, the incumbent skilled labor trade unions may make it hard to learn craft skills, and mandatory school attendance keeps warm bodies in the classroom, guaranteeing employment for the teachers already in the system.


    Generally speaking, this is not a bizarre or controversial hypothesis if you study any economics, especially any "microeconomics" topics. I think too many people study sociology rather than microeconomics, and too much of the economics they get is warmed over notions of macro from Marx or Keynes. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!


    That is a hypothesis--it's an empirical question, not prone to a clear answer in the comment threads.

    I will go out on a limb and say that a lot of kids these days don't actually develop reading proficiency in the early grades. former Rochester City School District superintendent Bolgen Vargas asserted that the kids who aren't reading at grade level by second grade simply fall farther behind as they progress through the schools into the higher grades. Can't we do something about that? If you teach someone to read you liberate them. "First you learn to read--then you read to learn."

    on reading proficiency see Diane McGuiness.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_McGuinness

    Vargas also faulted parents from disorganized or troubled households who couldn't manage to get their kids to school. We're talking about 1st or 2d graders whose parents couldn't get the kids out to get on the school bus (few kids seem to walk to school anymore, and a surprising number don't attend schools within walking distance).

    = - = - = - =

    I don't know much of anything about policing or criminal justice--but I'll take a stab at that in another post here if the comments remain open.

  142. @Art Deco
    @HammerJack

    No one denied that, you silly sperg.

    Go back and read his complaint.


    The argument was that superior engineering talent would naturally gravitate toward superior situations, and locales. Is that really so hard to understand? It’s normal human behavior.

    He offered no argument, nor is your statement a reasonable gloss on what he did say.

    Whether a situation is 'superior' or 'inferior' is going to depend on the taste preferences of the engineer in question. That aside, since Rochester had consequential businesses built by locals (George Eastman and Joseph C. Wilson to name two), evidently it was satisfactory for the sort of engineering talent necessary to build those businesses (whether that talent meets your understanding of 'superior' or not). Question: why not anymore? There's an answer to that, but not the one he offers.

    Replies: @HammerJack

    Superior people generally gravitate toward superior options. No matter how you define them. This really needs explaining? And reiterating?

    A couple of generations ago, there were far fewer high-quality job options in the sun belt and coastal California. But times have changed.

    You keep referring to two companies which were founded in Rochester the better part of 100 years ago. Those times are long gone, pal. That whole region is a has-been, and attracts no one who has better options.

    Pretty much everyone has better options now.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @HammerJack

    Superior people generally gravitate toward superior options. No matter how you define them. This really needs explaining? And reiterating?

    What shouldn't require explaining is that 'superior' people and 'inferior' people evaluate their options according to what they want out of life. That, in turn, varies from person to person. This seems to escape you.

  143. @2BR
    @Art Deco

    To be clearer on my compressed timeline: Kodak invented the first digital camera in 1975 (!) and the engineer who invented it said Kodak had no interest in it, as it was film-less and Kodak’s entire business model was based on cheap cameras and selling film. Kodak was decades ahead of everyone at that point. The Japanese eventually discovered the technology. When Kodak realized what was happening, it was too late. In 2004, Kodak announced it would stop the sale of film cameras. 15,000 employees were made redundant and the numbers dropped very quickly from there. They could never catch up and went bankrupt in 2012. But it did not have to be that way.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    The Japanese eventually discovered the technology. When Kodak realized what was happening, it was too late. In 2004, Kodak announced it would stop the sale of film cameras.

    I seem to remember that Kodak had an alliance with Nikon to produce digital cameras in those days, but it seemed a half-hearted effort at best.

  144. @charles w abbott
    @Anon87

    The riots in Rochester NY occurred early (relatively) in the 1960s--it was the summer of 1964. The proximate cause was policing issues. It is also claimed that Black migrants were crowded into small neighborhoods and found it difficult to rent housing elsewhere.

    Rochester has its own wiki--it's not gigantic but you can find some things there, "at your fingertips."

    https://rocwiki.org/1964_Race_Riot

    = - = - = - =

    There is so very much to discuss here. It is my fervent wish that Sir Steve keeps the comment window open long enough for us to have a rollicking discussion for some days yet.

    = - = - = - =

    Steve probably knows in the back of his head that Cornell University is not really all that old.

    It was founded in 1865, when two thirds of the 19th century had already gone past. I'm not sure that's either here nor there.

    Cornell University has a college of "Industrial Labor Relations" or ILR because the founder had genuine concerns about the class warfare that seemed a possibility during the Gilded Age. Someone has written about this, doubtless.

    to demonstrate that 1865 is "late" by historical standards, I'll point out that Cornell College in Mount Vermon, Iowa was founded 2 years before Cornell University in Ithaca, NY. Coe College in Cedar Rapids Iowa has its founding in 1850. Oberlin was founded earlier.

    Perhaps colleges and universities in that era didn't have much to do with industry. German universities helped spur German industrial innovation in the mid 1800s--perhaps that didn't really much happen here.

    = - = - = - =

    Steve is correct that most of Western New York State has a New England feel to it, because it was originally settled by New Englanders moving west. Rochester is thus part of the "Yankee" or "Puritan" expansion from New England into the Upper Midwest.

    A paradigmatic example is Northern Ohio's "Western Reserve," settled by people from Connecticut.

    This has cultural implications but also economic implications. New York State's "Middle Mohawk" zone was full of smallish factories producing non-durable consumer goods. You can imagine those cities to be rather like New England mill towns. You would be correct to imagine those Middle Mohawk" cities having the same experience of industrial decline from the production moving south to places like the Carolinas, and then overseas.

    Rochester lucked out by having a more robust industrial heritage.

    = - = - = - =

    As a general observation, Rochester lacks any good comprehensive history in book form that does a good job covering the last 50 or 60 years.


    Former City Historian Blake McKelvey wrote a multivolume history of Rochester but it doesn't really cover events in the 1960s very well. He did write an interesting biography of Joe Wilson of Xerox fame. _Business as a profession: The career of Joseph C. Wilson, the founder of Xerox_.

    _Rochester on the Genesee: the growth of a city_ came out in 1973. It was re-released in 1983 to mark the 150th anniversary of the city's founding, but there is no single book you can pick up with "good narrative drive" to learn about recent events in Rochester.

    In that sense, Buffalo has the historian Mark Goldman who has done very useful work on recent Buffalo history. There is no similar work on Rochester that fills that same role.

    https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781615923922/City-on-the-Lake-The-Challenge-of-Change-in-Buffalo-New-York

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Anon87

    Rochester lucked out by having a more robust industrial heritage.

    I’d posit that Rochester has been able to pivot away from Kodak and Xerox fairly well because the University of Rochester and RIT are both formidable universities, though it is quite disturbing how the U of R Health System appears to be devouring just about every bit of empty office space and real estate available.

    • Replies: @Anon87
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Agreed, every day another U of R facility goes up (and I assume takes more land off the tax rolls).  I wouldn't be as annoyed if they hadn't cut employee benefits as they rake in the money.

    RIT isn't as bright.  Not a disaster exactly, but after a big spasm of campus expansion they are facing declining enrollment which started before Covid could be blamed.  Their approach has been to go ultra woke, ignore the SAT and ACT, and basically just start to accept warm bodies.  Sure there are plenty of your old school nerds taking engineering classes who will one day contribute to society (not in Rochester od course), but we all know where this road leads.

    The pivot is unfortinately to a lesser standard.  No more affordable family formation paying jobs, just lots and lots of service sector positions with a fatty upper layer of administrators.  Education and Wegmans is certainly a type of economy, but except for a few certainly inferior to a manufacturing and tech driven one.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @The Wild Geese Howard

  145. @Art Deco
    @Nicholas Stix

    I suspect if you unpacked it, there wasn't much extortion if any. The aspirant extortionists (e.g. the late James McCuller and his sidekick Franklin Florence) never had the chops to run a business of any description. (McCuller ran a grant-funded social work agency). It was a patronage-dependent business that shut down when the patronage evaporated.


    See TS Eliot:

    “Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm; but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves.”


    Rochester's blacks would have benefited from quality public services. Housing, business contracts, and commercial and industrial credit are not public services. Primary and secondary schooling are such only due to distributional concerns. The quality of primary and secondary schooling declined precipitously due to the collapse of fixed standards of performance and behavior; that of daily street life did so because there was an ineffectual response to the sort of cultural decay generating more disorder. (The welfare system was much more adept at generating employment for social workers than it was at improving the real incomes of impecunious families). More than 40 years later, the political class in Monroe County had learned zippo from their own experience and those of other loci.

    Replies: @charles w abbott

    I will argue that the Black and Puerto Rican urban poor of Rochester are failed by public sector institutions (k-12 education, policing, criminal justice) more than they are failed or exploited or “kept down” by the private sector

    Is “the man” keeping you down? Who is “the man” these days? It’s the tangle of producer interests that keeps Rochester city children in inferior public schools, for example. Maybe some kids “aren’t into book learning” and should just be allowed to spend more time in the labor market, where they might learn something on the job and pick up useful skills and attitudes from the older people who supervise their work.

    The cultural scold Mark Bauerlein makes that point in _The dumbest generation_: traditionally young people worked in an environment where they were supervised by an older cohort that managed and or trained them, at least informally.

    The minimum wage may keep such kids from getting a first honest job, the incumbent skilled labor trade unions may make it hard to learn craft skills, and mandatory school attendance keeps warm bodies in the classroom, guaranteeing employment for the teachers already in the system.

    Generally speaking, this is not a bizarre or controversial hypothesis if you study any economics, especially any “microeconomics” topics. I think too many people study sociology rather than microeconomics, and too much of the economics they get is warmed over notions of macro from Marx or Keynes. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

    That is a hypothesis–it’s an empirical question, not prone to a clear answer in the comment threads.

    I will go out on a limb and say that a lot of kids these days don’t actually develop reading proficiency in the early grades. former Rochester City School District superintendent Bolgen Vargas asserted that the kids who aren’t reading at grade level by second grade simply fall farther behind as they progress through the schools into the higher grades. Can’t we do something about that? If you teach someone to read you liberate them. “First you learn to read–then you read to learn.”

    on reading proficiency see Diane McGuiness.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_McGuinness

    Vargas also faulted parents from disorganized or troubled households who couldn’t manage to get their kids to school. We’re talking about 1st or 2d graders whose parents couldn’t get the kids out to get on the school bus (few kids seem to walk to school anymore, and a surprising number don’t attend schools within walking distance).

    = – = – = – =

    I don’t know much of anything about policing or criminal justice–but I’ll take a stab at that in another post here if the comments remain open.

  146. To get back to the original issue of this post as it is pitched, the justifiable frustrations of Rochester’s relatively recent migrants from the South erupted in riots that were precipitated by policing issues and crowded housing in the neighborhoods that were most open to Black Southern migrants.

    After the riots died down, a vast variety of programs were suggested. It was the era of “You’ve got a problem? We’ve got a policy.” Some of these programs or policies end up benefitting Black America’s “Talented Tenth,” rather than the poorest, most vulnerable, or most needy.

    If you are cynic, or merely a hard-eyed skeptic, you can look at it and say that this is not a bug but a feature.

    Somewhere this cynical interpretation has been made by Professor Glenn Loury. Some of the affirmative action programs for the business class are very obviously going to benefit opportunistic actors in business, perhaps competent or perhaps not (an empirical question). But “business set-asides” (for lack of a better term) for middle class Blacks can’t be presumed to benefit Blacks on the lowest levels of the socio-economic pyramid.

    I think in academic terms you could say that racial solidarity becomes the mask for class privilege and cronyism. Meanwhile the social problems continue, driven by whatever drives them.

    But what drives social problems? It occurs to me that the concept of “normative sociology” is useful here. Sorry to digress, but it’s relevant. Professor Arnold Kling has blogged on the topic, but the best introduction may be here:

    http://induecourse.ca/on-the-problem-of-normative-sociology/

  147. @HammerJack
    @Art Deco

    Superior people generally gravitate toward superior options. No matter how you define them. This really needs explaining? And reiterating?

    A couple of generations ago, there were far fewer high-quality job options in the sun belt and coastal California. But times have changed.

    You keep referring to two companies which were founded in Rochester the better part of 100 years ago. Those times are long gone, pal. That whole region is a has-been, and attracts no one who has better options.

    Pretty much everyone has better options now.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Superior people generally gravitate toward superior options. No matter how you define them. This really needs explaining? And reiterating?

    What shouldn’t require explaining is that ‘superior’ people and ‘inferior’ people evaluate their options according to what they want out of life. That, in turn, varies from person to person. This seems to escape you.

  148. @notsaying
    @charles w abbott

    I would line to hear more. I hope you come back and add to what you have already said. We need to hear more from people like this police captain. I would also love to hear what the good people trapped in these neighborhoods have to say. Yes, they are sick of things, as they should be. Are they willing to see the guys doing this stuff sent to prison even when they are the sons and brothers of people they know?

    Replies: @charles w abbott

    I’m a middle class white guy from the suburbs, so take everything I have to say with a grain of salt.

    The good people who live in dangerous neighborhoods don’t like predatory street crime and stupid shootings over insults, or “in search of respect.” We can guess that raising children in such neighborhoods is hard. Some youngsters grow up and turn in dangerous direction.

    What exactly explains the blanket animosity toward the police I can’t explain. For some people it’s rational–they feel “hassled by the police” for no reason. On that issue I am going to “punt”–I have to disqualify myself from an attempt at a serious answer. I cannot add value in many discussions about policing. I can just notice that we lose a lot of human potential from violent crime.

    = – = – = – = – =

    RIT criminologist John Klofas gave a few good interviews that were published in _Rochester City Newspaper_ years ago–they are still worth reading today.

    Please note that these articles are more than ten years old:
    Part One is here:

    https://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/rochester/rochester-made-for-murder/Content?oid=2132212

    Part Two is here:

    https://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/rochester/what-options-for-a-city-made-for-murder/Content?oid=2132259

    Klofas makes the valid point that Giuliani and Bratton got the homicide rate down in New York City with stop and frisk…eventually people stopped carrying guns habitually, which reduced spur of the moment shootings. People still had guns–they left them at home.

    The literature on this is huge. Some people engage with it and talk about the genuine issues. I think there are tradeoffs.

    = – = – = – = – =

    One thing that comes to mind is the concept of “Swift, Sure, Certain.” Megan McArdle had an article in Bloomberg roughly 5 years ago where she discusses the need to have immediate consequences for small offenses. The article may be paywalled. Otherwise kids start running wild in their mid teens or earlier and get a slap on the wrist a few times until they suddenly commit a more serious offense and are facing serious prison time. I think Klofas does a good job of discussing that general question.

    I was punished for doing stupid things when I was a teenager–it didn’t immediately stop me, but it slowed me down and made me think, and eventually I wised up a little bit.

    I often go back and read James Q. Wilson’s old article _What to do about crime_ . It’s roughly 25 years old.

    I don’t know if he’s correct, but he points out that interventions have to start early. Midnight basketball for 17 year olds or 23 year olds is not enough. A visiting nurse program for the household of every troubled 6 year old would help more. Thus in the book _The dream hoarders_ Reeves advocates the home visit by the public health agency for all households with children. Just a thought. And this is going to cost real money–“whose ox are to you going to gore” to finance that?

    https://www.commentary.org/articles/james-wilson/what-to-do-about-crime/

    That article (James Q. Wilson) should not be paywalled–see if you can find the non-paywalled essay. Wilson was a very conservative fellow–he advocates bringing back the orphanage for single mothers and their children, with all need based government payments sent to the orphanage. Try running for public office on that platform!

    Another concept is the “investment in impulse control,” also discussed by Wilson in _Thinking about crime_.

    The deeper questions are not just legal or administrative but moral. How can we make it so that goodness is fashionable, to quote Wilberforce.

    The general issue is not limited to “ghetto” demographics. The challenges vary by demographic. Historically the big threat for the middle and upper middle class suburbanites has been reckless driving and driving while intoxicated. More recently the opiate epidemic and fentanyl has taken over in the death rate.

    I enjoyed reading Jason Riley’s book _Please stop helping us_–he discusses the way he found good men to emulate when he was a young man–some of his relatives were Jehovah’s Witnesses! His brother took another road and I believe was dead well before 30.

    The most sensible dialogues I hear on race in the USA are from Glenn Loury and John McWhorter. Had I time, I would be watching every episode of The Glenn Show.

    https://bloggingheads.tv/programs/glenn-show

  149. @charles w abbott
    @Anon87

    The riots in Rochester NY occurred early (relatively) in the 1960s--it was the summer of 1964. The proximate cause was policing issues. It is also claimed that Black migrants were crowded into small neighborhoods and found it difficult to rent housing elsewhere.

    Rochester has its own wiki--it's not gigantic but you can find some things there, "at your fingertips."

    https://rocwiki.org/1964_Race_Riot

    = - = - = - =

    There is so very much to discuss here. It is my fervent wish that Sir Steve keeps the comment window open long enough for us to have a rollicking discussion for some days yet.

    = - = - = - =

    Steve probably knows in the back of his head that Cornell University is not really all that old.

    It was founded in 1865, when two thirds of the 19th century had already gone past. I'm not sure that's either here nor there.

    Cornell University has a college of "Industrial Labor Relations" or ILR because the founder had genuine concerns about the class warfare that seemed a possibility during the Gilded Age. Someone has written about this, doubtless.

    to demonstrate that 1865 is "late" by historical standards, I'll point out that Cornell College in Mount Vermon, Iowa was founded 2 years before Cornell University in Ithaca, NY. Coe College in Cedar Rapids Iowa has its founding in 1850. Oberlin was founded earlier.

    Perhaps colleges and universities in that era didn't have much to do with industry. German universities helped spur German industrial innovation in the mid 1800s--perhaps that didn't really much happen here.

    = - = - = - =

    Steve is correct that most of Western New York State has a New England feel to it, because it was originally settled by New Englanders moving west. Rochester is thus part of the "Yankee" or "Puritan" expansion from New England into the Upper Midwest.

    A paradigmatic example is Northern Ohio's "Western Reserve," settled by people from Connecticut.

    This has cultural implications but also economic implications. New York State's "Middle Mohawk" zone was full of smallish factories producing non-durable consumer goods. You can imagine those cities to be rather like New England mill towns. You would be correct to imagine those Middle Mohawk" cities having the same experience of industrial decline from the production moving south to places like the Carolinas, and then overseas.

    Rochester lucked out by having a more robust industrial heritage.

    = - = - = - =

    As a general observation, Rochester lacks any good comprehensive history in book form that does a good job covering the last 50 or 60 years.


    Former City Historian Blake McKelvey wrote a multivolume history of Rochester but it doesn't really cover events in the 1960s very well. He did write an interesting biography of Joe Wilson of Xerox fame. _Business as a profession: The career of Joseph C. Wilson, the founder of Xerox_.

    _Rochester on the Genesee: the growth of a city_ came out in 1973. It was re-released in 1983 to mark the 150th anniversary of the city's founding, but there is no single book you can pick up with "good narrative drive" to learn about recent events in Rochester.

    In that sense, Buffalo has the historian Mark Goldman who has done very useful work on recent Buffalo history. There is no similar work on Rochester that fills that same role.

    https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781615923922/City-on-the-Lake-The-Challenge-of-Change-in-Buffalo-New-York

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Anon87

    Ahh, RocWiki. I am afraid it is much less updated than it used to be, which seems to be similar to a lot of older, useful webpages.

    I think the lack of good news, either racial or economic, kills the need for a comprehensive historical look at the last 50 years. Unless the reader is a masocist.

  150. @Art Deco
    @Anon87

    I don’t think riots need to be continously happening for it to be the direct cause of white flight in ROC.

    If the implosion is more rapid in 1975 than it was in 1966, that's likely not the salient vector.

    Replies: @Anon87

    Reasonable point. Potential theory is that the surrounding suburbs weren’t built yet to escape the city, so lots of demand but not enough supply yet. I’d need yearly zip code population and building permit info to support that, but I’m not trying to write a book here either! So just speculation on my part.

    While the exodus had already started pre-riots, the riots most likely accelerated the inevitable. Once Southern blacks moved to Rochester the die was cast.

  151. @Art Deco
    @Anon87

    Roc used to have affordable housing in the burbs, but holy crap is there a bubble. Nice houses on the east side at only 1400 sq ft are going for $300k+, which is lunacy.


    Re-read his kvetch. Are you comparing Rochester's housing costs to housing costs generally, to housing costs in his preferred commuter belt, or to your a priori conception of what a house should cost?

    Replies: @Anon87

    Comparing housing costs in Rochester’s suburbs over the decades, as a native to the area.

  152. @The Wild Geese Howard
    @charles w abbott


    Rochester lucked out by having a more robust industrial heritage.
     
    I'd posit that Rochester has been able to pivot away from Kodak and Xerox fairly well because the University of Rochester and RIT are both formidable universities, though it is quite disturbing how the U of R Health System appears to be devouring just about every bit of empty office space and real estate available.

    Replies: @Anon87

    Agreed, every day another U of R facility goes up (and I assume takes more land off the tax rolls).  I wouldn’t be as annoyed if they hadn’t cut employee benefits as they rake in the money.

    RIT isn’t as bright.  Not a disaster exactly, but after a big spasm of campus expansion they are facing declining enrollment which started before Covid could be blamed.  Their approach has been to go ultra woke, ignore the SAT and ACT, and basically just start to accept warm bodies.  Sure there are plenty of your old school nerds taking engineering classes who will one day contribute to society (not in Rochester od course), but we all know where this road leads.

    The pivot is unfortinately to a lesser standard.  No more affordable family formation paying jobs, just lots and lots of service sector positions with a fatty upper layer of administrators.  Education and Wegmans is certainly a type of economy, but except for a few certainly inferior to a manufacturing and tech driven one.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Anon87

    RIT was founded as the Rochester Mechanics Institute. AFAIK, they have no academic majors. Their academic faculty are there to provide classes for distribution credits. At one time, the fare consisted of technology, full stop. Later they added other occupational programs (business, social work). They have some interesting curios, like the School of American Crafts. Not sure when they started offering research degrees.

    U of R has been a research institution for generations. It began with academics and then added occupational schools as time went on, generally post-baccalaureate. They have an engineering school, but otherwise (unless I'm mistaken) undergraduate degrees are in academic subjects (or in musical performance). The other occupational schools are for post-baccalaureate study.

    Two quite different cultures and histories.


    Interesting curio. There's a public university law school in Buffalo, a private (stand alone) law school in Albany, and two private university law schools in Central New York (one in Syracuse, one in Ithaca). No law school in Rochester.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Anon87


    RIT isn’t as bright. Not a disaster exactly, but after a big spasm of campus expansion they are facing declining enrollment which started before Covid could be blamed. Their approach has been to go ultra woke, ignore the SAT and ACT, and basically just start to accept warm bodies.
     
    A lot of that has to do with RIT's new president Dave Munson who was sourced from the University of Michigan, which has always been in a stiff competition with the University of Wisconsin to be, "...the Berkeley of the Midwest."

    His big vision is to turn RIT into a research-oriented school, much like Michigan or Wisconsin. Part of that is reducing, or even doing away with RIT's requirement for 4 semesters of co-op/internship time to earn a degree.

    That is dumb, because that has been one of RIT's key differentiators for decades. Their grads are well regarded because they already have a year of real-world experience right out of the gate.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Anon87

  153. @Polistra
    @Art Deco

    Rochester is the worst city in the country. You must love it!

    https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/annual-snowfall-by-city.php

    Replies: @Dnought, @syonredux

    I like snow.

  154. @Anon87
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Agreed, every day another U of R facility goes up (and I assume takes more land off the tax rolls).  I wouldn't be as annoyed if they hadn't cut employee benefits as they rake in the money.

    RIT isn't as bright.  Not a disaster exactly, but after a big spasm of campus expansion they are facing declining enrollment which started before Covid could be blamed.  Their approach has been to go ultra woke, ignore the SAT and ACT, and basically just start to accept warm bodies.  Sure there are plenty of your old school nerds taking engineering classes who will one day contribute to society (not in Rochester od course), but we all know where this road leads.

    The pivot is unfortinately to a lesser standard.  No more affordable family formation paying jobs, just lots and lots of service sector positions with a fatty upper layer of administrators.  Education and Wegmans is certainly a type of economy, but except for a few certainly inferior to a manufacturing and tech driven one.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @The Wild Geese Howard

    RIT was founded as the Rochester Mechanics Institute. AFAIK, they have no academic majors. Their academic faculty are there to provide classes for distribution credits. At one time, the fare consisted of technology, full stop. Later they added other occupational programs (business, social work). They have some interesting curios, like the School of American Crafts. Not sure when they started offering research degrees.

    U of R has been a research institution for generations. It began with academics and then added occupational schools as time went on, generally post-baccalaureate. They have an engineering school, but otherwise (unless I’m mistaken) undergraduate degrees are in academic subjects (or in musical performance). The other occupational schools are for post-baccalaureate study.

    Two quite different cultures and histories.

    Interesting curio. There’s a public university law school in Buffalo, a private (stand alone) law school in Albany, and two private university law schools in Central New York (one in Syracuse, one in Ithaca). No law school in Rochester.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Art Deco


    Not sure when they started offering research degrees.
     
    IIRC, RIT began granting PhD's in the very late '00s, I want to say around the '08-'09 timeframe.
  155. I forgot to mention that there is personal memoir, a “coming of age” type book set largely in Rochester that came out in last ten years and captures part of the Rochester “vibe.”

    The book _Kodak Elegy_ written by William Merrill Decker and published by Syracuse University Press. He has a photo of his middle school (mine too!) in the book.

    Please recall that book titles are frequently chosen by publishers with an eye toward marketability.

    https://press.syr.edu/supressbooks/714/kodak-elegy/

    = – = – = – =

    Offhand the three most interesting memoirs / essays of the Rochester area might be

    1. _Mount Allegro_ by Gerry Mangione, now very dated, about growing up in a clannish family of Sicilian immigrants on the Northeast side–the book is now dated but still a fun read. It was originally published in the early 1970s, methinks.

    https://press.syr.edu/supressbooks/1447/mount-allegro/

    2. _Kodak elegy_ mentioned above, and

    3. _Dispatches from the Muckdog Gazette_ by Bill Kauffman, a quirky collection of spunky polemical essays. Not really about Rochester at all, but focused on Batavia, the small industrial city halfway between Rochester and Syracuse.

    Kauffman publishes much of his writing in _The American Conservative_.

    https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780312423162/dispatchesfromthemuckdoggazette

    = – = – = – =

    That’s what pops into my head. Your mileage may vary.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @charles w abbott

    Henry Clune's old books would be quite dated but perhaps useful for historical reference. Zena Collier lived in Rochester for 40+ years, but AFAIK, her novels were not set there. One of the very few people who grew up locally who might merit a biography would be Philip Seymour Hoffman. There was a documentary about him issued a few years ago; don't know that there's been a full-dress biography.

    Replies: @charles w abbott

  156. @Anon87
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Agreed, every day another U of R facility goes up (and I assume takes more land off the tax rolls).  I wouldn't be as annoyed if they hadn't cut employee benefits as they rake in the money.

    RIT isn't as bright.  Not a disaster exactly, but after a big spasm of campus expansion they are facing declining enrollment which started before Covid could be blamed.  Their approach has been to go ultra woke, ignore the SAT and ACT, and basically just start to accept warm bodies.  Sure there are plenty of your old school nerds taking engineering classes who will one day contribute to society (not in Rochester od course), but we all know where this road leads.

    The pivot is unfortinately to a lesser standard.  No more affordable family formation paying jobs, just lots and lots of service sector positions with a fatty upper layer of administrators.  Education and Wegmans is certainly a type of economy, but except for a few certainly inferior to a manufacturing and tech driven one.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @The Wild Geese Howard

    RIT isn’t as bright. Not a disaster exactly, but after a big spasm of campus expansion they are facing declining enrollment which started before Covid could be blamed. Their approach has been to go ultra woke, ignore the SAT and ACT, and basically just start to accept warm bodies.

    A lot of that has to do with RIT’s new president Dave Munson who was sourced from the University of Michigan, which has always been in a stiff competition with the University of Wisconsin to be, “…the Berkeley of the Midwest.”

    His big vision is to turn RIT into a research-oriented school, much like Michigan or Wisconsin. Part of that is reducing, or even doing away with RIT’s requirement for 4 semesters of co-op/internship time to earn a degree.

    That is dumb, because that has been one of RIT’s key differentiators for decades. Their grads are well regarded because they already have a year of real-world experience right out of the gate.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    A lot of that has to do with RIT’s new president Dave Munson who was sourced from the University of Michigan, which has always been in a stiff competition with the University of Wisconsin to be, “…the Berkeley of the Midwest.”His big vision is to turn RIT into a research-oriented school, much like Michigan or Wisconsin. Part of that is reducing, or even doing away with RIT’s requirement for 4 semesters of co-op/internship time to earn a degree.

    Is there a board of trustees in the world of higher education that isn't dominated by irresponsible sh!ts? The great thing about RIT was its inner-directedness. What's maddening is that the board is predominantly made up of business people.

    , @Anon87
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Yup. The "logic" about going from trimesters to semesters was the ability to easily get more transfer students (more $$$), at the expense of intellectual rigor and co-ops.

    From rock solid job preparedness, to building more theaters and art exhibits. Shame.

  157. @Art Deco
    @Anon87

    RIT was founded as the Rochester Mechanics Institute. AFAIK, they have no academic majors. Their academic faculty are there to provide classes for distribution credits. At one time, the fare consisted of technology, full stop. Later they added other occupational programs (business, social work). They have some interesting curios, like the School of American Crafts. Not sure when they started offering research degrees.

    U of R has been a research institution for generations. It began with academics and then added occupational schools as time went on, generally post-baccalaureate. They have an engineering school, but otherwise (unless I'm mistaken) undergraduate degrees are in academic subjects (or in musical performance). The other occupational schools are for post-baccalaureate study.

    Two quite different cultures and histories.


    Interesting curio. There's a public university law school in Buffalo, a private (stand alone) law school in Albany, and two private university law schools in Central New York (one in Syracuse, one in Ithaca). No law school in Rochester.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    Not sure when they started offering research degrees.

    IIRC, RIT began granting PhD’s in the very late ’00s, I want to say around the ’08-’09 timeframe.

  158. @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Anon87


    RIT isn’t as bright. Not a disaster exactly, but after a big spasm of campus expansion they are facing declining enrollment which started before Covid could be blamed. Their approach has been to go ultra woke, ignore the SAT and ACT, and basically just start to accept warm bodies.
     
    A lot of that has to do with RIT's new president Dave Munson who was sourced from the University of Michigan, which has always been in a stiff competition with the University of Wisconsin to be, "...the Berkeley of the Midwest."

    His big vision is to turn RIT into a research-oriented school, much like Michigan or Wisconsin. Part of that is reducing, or even doing away with RIT's requirement for 4 semesters of co-op/internship time to earn a degree.

    That is dumb, because that has been one of RIT's key differentiators for decades. Their grads are well regarded because they already have a year of real-world experience right out of the gate.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Anon87

    A lot of that has to do with RIT’s new president Dave Munson who was sourced from the University of Michigan, which has always been in a stiff competition with the University of Wisconsin to be, “…the Berkeley of the Midwest.”His big vision is to turn RIT into a research-oriented school, much like Michigan or Wisconsin. Part of that is reducing, or even doing away with RIT’s requirement for 4 semesters of co-op/internship time to earn a degree.

    Is there a board of trustees in the world of higher education that isn’t dominated by irresponsible sh!ts? The great thing about RIT was its inner-directedness. What’s maddening is that the board is predominantly made up of business people.

  159. @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Anon87


    RIT isn’t as bright. Not a disaster exactly, but after a big spasm of campus expansion they are facing declining enrollment which started before Covid could be blamed. Their approach has been to go ultra woke, ignore the SAT and ACT, and basically just start to accept warm bodies.
     
    A lot of that has to do with RIT's new president Dave Munson who was sourced from the University of Michigan, which has always been in a stiff competition with the University of Wisconsin to be, "...the Berkeley of the Midwest."

    His big vision is to turn RIT into a research-oriented school, much like Michigan or Wisconsin. Part of that is reducing, or even doing away with RIT's requirement for 4 semesters of co-op/internship time to earn a degree.

    That is dumb, because that has been one of RIT's key differentiators for decades. Their grads are well regarded because they already have a year of real-world experience right out of the gate.

    Replies: @Art Deco, @Anon87

    Yup. The “logic” about going from trimesters to semesters was the ability to easily get more transfer students (more \$\$\$), at the expense of intellectual rigor and co-ops.

    From rock solid job preparedness, to building more theaters and art exhibits. Shame.

  160. @charles w abbott
    I forgot to mention that there is personal memoir, a "coming of age" type book set largely in Rochester that came out in last ten years and captures part of the Rochester "vibe."

    The book _Kodak Elegy_ written by William Merrill Decker and published by Syracuse University Press. He has a photo of his middle school (mine too!) in the book.

    Please recall that book titles are frequently chosen by publishers with an eye toward marketability.

    https://press.syr.edu/supressbooks/714/kodak-elegy/


    = - = - = - =

    Offhand the three most interesting memoirs / essays of the Rochester area might be


    1. _Mount Allegro_ by Gerry Mangione, now very dated, about growing up in a clannish family of Sicilian immigrants on the Northeast side--the book is now dated but still a fun read. It was originally published in the early 1970s, methinks.

    https://press.syr.edu/supressbooks/1447/mount-allegro/

    2. _Kodak elegy_ mentioned above, and

    3. _Dispatches from the Muckdog Gazette_ by Bill Kauffman, a quirky collection of spunky polemical essays. Not really about Rochester at all, but focused on Batavia, the small industrial city halfway between Rochester and Syracuse.

    Kauffman publishes much of his writing in _The American Conservative_.

    https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780312423162/dispatchesfromthemuckdoggazette

    = - = - = - =

    That's what pops into my head. Your mileage may vary.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Henry Clune’s old books would be quite dated but perhaps useful for historical reference. Zena Collier lived in Rochester for 40+ years, but AFAIK, her novels were not set there. One of the very few people who grew up locally who might merit a biography would be Philip Seymour Hoffman. There was a documentary about him issued a few years ago; don’t know that there’s been a full-dress biography.

    • Replies: @charles w abbott
    @Art Deco

    I had forgotten Henry Clune. _I always liked it here_ is a great title for a book.

    And _Smugtown_ was written by "Curt" Gerling. Smugtown is definitely worth reading, so long as you like satire. If you can get past the satire it probably contains real information on the social scene.

    https://rocwiki.org/Smugtown

    RocWiki doesn't seem to be updated much, but some of those old names can be looked up there.

    Emerson Klees has a variety of brief biographical sketches of prominent figures from years gone by. For example,

    https://www.lifeinthefingerlakes.com/emerson-klees-local-author-goes-beyond-finger-lakes-themes/

  161. @Art Deco
    @charles w abbott

    Henry Clune's old books would be quite dated but perhaps useful for historical reference. Zena Collier lived in Rochester for 40+ years, but AFAIK, her novels were not set there. One of the very few people who grew up locally who might merit a biography would be Philip Seymour Hoffman. There was a documentary about him issued a few years ago; don't know that there's been a full-dress biography.

    Replies: @charles w abbott

    I had forgotten Henry Clune. _I always liked it here_ is a great title for a book.

    And _Smugtown_ was written by “Curt” Gerling. Smugtown is definitely worth reading, so long as you like satire. If you can get past the satire it probably contains real information on the social scene.

    https://rocwiki.org/Smugtown

    RocWiki doesn’t seem to be updated much, but some of those old names can be looked up there.

    Emerson Klees has a variety of brief biographical sketches of prominent figures from years gone by. For example,

    https://www.lifeinthefingerlakes.com/emerson-klees-local-author-goes-beyond-finger-lakes-themes/

  162. RIT did indeed start as a “trade school.” The Rochester area still has a lot of small precision machining / manufacturing activity. Much of is automated, and the machine shop employers typically complain that they can’t find the skilled workers to hire.

    My machinist friends tell me that dumb mistakes are so expensive that no one wants to hire entry level workers who don’t already know what they are doing and will screw things up multiple times before they learn enough to be viable employees.

    = -= – = – =

    The University of Rochester is a respectable school–it’s long been a “Research One” university, though a bit on the small side compared to the largest state schools. The most well known portion of the school is probably the medical school and its affiliated hospital, Strong Memorial Hospital.

    In the old days, in any medium sized city the biggest employers were often a few industrial concerns. Now, the biggest employer in many medium sized cities is a university plus its teaching hospital. After that, a grocery store chain. That describes much of Upstate New York.

    = – = – = – =

    In academia, there is a perverse incentive where the administrators’ status (professors, too) comes from making everything more and more like a research university. It could be that RIT is moving in that direction. This is a topic for different discussion thread.

    • Agree: Anon87

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