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The leader of The Cars, the benchmark New Wave rock band of the late 1970s, Ric Ocasek, has died at age 75, which is a pretty good lifespan for a rock star.

You’ll note from his age that Ocasek didn’t hit it big until his mid-30s with The Cars debut album in 1978, which featured this music biz veteran’s correct anticipation of what Kids These Days would be into after the long reign of the Blues: more linear guitar-riffing with nerdier references.

Ocasek hit it very big: Here are Mr. and Mrs. O (the Polish model Paulina Porizkova, one of the very first of the now never-ending number of beautiful Slavic girls to emerge from Eastern Europe):

Update, this isn’t Paulina Porizkova above, it’s Susan Gallagher. This is Paulina:

 
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  1. Eddie Money on Friday and now Ric Ocasek. Neither of them were mentioned in that article (‘The coming death of just about every rock legend’) from the other week .

  2. Hi Steve! I’m pretty sure that not Paulina Porizkova in the video. For one thing, Paulina doesn’t have a turned-up nose.

    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
    She was in the video version of another Cars song "Drive" and she was from Czechoslovakia ( Now Czech Republic ) her parents were political dissidents who fled to Sweden which is where she grew up.
    , @dr kill
    All those times I checked her out in Playboy, and I never noticed her nose.
  3. Paulina was in the video for the song “Drive”.

    • Replies: @Realist
    Drive, One of my favorites.
  4. Anonymous[132] • Disclaimer says:

    Don’t like punk, but some of its vibe rubbed off well on The Cars that really hit their stride as a New Wave act. They took some of the impudence but mixed with jittery charm and bubblegum sweetness.

    DRIVE is an all-time great song. TONIGHT SHE COMES, YOU MIGHT THINK, and JUST WHAT I NEEDED are joyous. I’M NOT THE ONE is a great snowy night song.

  5. The story I heard re: why so many rock stars wind up with supermodels is that they’d get directors to cast them in their music videos. Ocasek met Porizkova during filming of the music video for “Drive.” He was married and 21 years her senior. He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.

    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    I don't know, Mick Jagger is one ugly dude. Be interesting to rank ugliest rock singers.
    , @Abe

    He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.
     
    Billy *COUGH* Joel
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    Ocasek was certainly one of the ugliest men I've ever seen, but Roger Waters, Tom Petty and Alice Cooper are up there with him.

    BTW, the music of The Cars was terrible.

    PS - no love for Eddie Money?
    , @syonredux
    Being a rock star definitely has its advantages....


    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/65/2c/01/652c0116cca9230e755a09e24b215519.jpg


    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/71/d2/11/71d21102ac11339921efa590a6533352--paulina-porizkova-supermodels.jpg

    https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/images/1985-Paulina-Porizkova-006273574.jpg


    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1f/b3/9b/1fb39b1a450856bb5d07220fb76bc511.jpg


    http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/styles/si_gallery_slide/public/2013/06/paulina2.jpg



    https://www.bellazon.com/main/uploads/monthly_07_2008/post-18318-1215540308.jpg
    , @R.G. Camara
    All women love musicians who play guitar, piano, or sing well.

    If you become famous/good at it there's a never-ending supply of models and 10s at your beck and call.

    Excuse me while I go practice my scales.
    , @Aft
    Story confirmed

    https://heartiste.net/alpha-male-of-the-month-how-did-ric-ocasek-get-paulina-porizkova/
    , @foulkes
    Ric was not conventionally attractive nor particularly talented. But he did have some qualities that worked with Paulina.

    He was of Czech descent

    He was tall- even tall girls want a taller guy.

    He was older than her. She was 19 when they met and most of her life she didn't have a father in her home life. Her dad fled Czechoslovakia when she was three and she was raised by her grandmother till she was about ten. Not long after she was reunited with her parents in Sweden, they broke up. She was off to Paris alone to model when she was 15. She wanted a stable older male presence
  6. RIP.

    The riff in Best Friend’s Girl is ripped from the Beatles’ I Will. Similarly the riff in Costello’s Two Little Hitlers is from Rebel Rebel.

    I saw Ocasek and Porsikova at an upscale pan-American foodie joint in Gramercy 25 years ago. Another tall model on his other arm. He was like 6’5” 140 pounds.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
    RIP Ric. You gave hope to all us ugly guys that we could indeed snag a hottie.

    It is my belief that the Fountains of Wayne song Stacy’s Mom is an homage to My Best Friend’s Girl.

    My favorite Cars number is You’re All I’ve Got Tonight/ Bye Bye Love
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Similarly the riff in Costello’s Two Little Hitlers is from Rebel Rebel.
     
    Did Elvis and his buddy Nick Lowe have a bet on who would write the better Hitler song?


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lEvMkvr7Wa0
    , @Days of Broken Arrows
    "Second Choice" by Any Trouble is based on the bridge to "Two Little Hitlers." I think they improved it too.
  7. Wow, that is nearly Beach Boy territory; I had no idea that they were that old!

  8. That’s not Paulina in the You Might Think video.

  9. Sorry Steve, but a quick Google search says that the girl in the video was Susan Gallagher, likely a pretty American girl. Paulina was in the video Drive.

    Btw, I’m not a big Cars fan. I just noticed that the girl in this video didn’t look much like Paulina whom I remember from my youth.

    Either way, Rick did very, very well for himself.

    • Replies: @M_Young
    "the video was Susan Gallagher, likely a pretty American girl."

    I think I remember Ben Stein once writing that a Persian Jewish Princess would spend thousands of dollars in rhinoplasties to look like a shop girl from Wales.
  10. @Wilkey
    The story I heard re: why so many rock stars wind up with supermodels is that they'd get directors to cast them in their music videos. Ocasek met Porizkova during filming of the music video for "Drive." He was married and 21 years her senior. He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.

    I don’t know, Mick Jagger is one ugly dude. Be interesting to rank ugliest rock singers.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Bowie eventually aged into handsomeness, but the classic rock star look tended to be symmetrical but unusual: too delicate or too alien or too gaunt or too something to be movie star handsome: e.g., Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith. Johnny Depp is a rare movie star who also looks like a rock star. Maybe Val Kilmer too.

    Generally, square-jawed Tom Cruise handsomeness isn't what rock stars have. Rock stars typically have high cheekbones and small jaws.

    In general, rock stars tend to be heterosexuals with some effeminate traits, such as dancing ability and loving the crowd's adoration. E.g., Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn't really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That's his dad's character he's playing. Bruce admits he's more of a delicate artsy type.

    , @R.G. Camara
    The great line about Mick Jagger I heard was that "Mick Jagger looks like Don Knotts." It has always stuck with me.

    There have been vague attempts by some to paint the always-on-the-prowl Jagger as "handsome" or "pretty" but it's all just old arty camera shots and his publicists working hard for him.

    , @Father O'Hara
    Mick was famous for embodying the new term androgyny. He had those lips and a narrow,slim physique. I don't think he was ugly a'tall. A bit odd,maybe,but to women he was very goodlooking.
    , @ScarletNumber

    Mick Jagger is one ugly dude
     
    If it makes you feel better his first wife was ugly as well. She ended up dating my congressman, and his people would cite this as a fact how hip his was: Oh, look, he is dating the ex-wife of a rock star.
    , @Hypnotoad666
    "Ugly" is a relative term for men. The more money/fame/talent/confidence you have, the more "attractive" you are.
  11. Czech, not Polish.

    • Replies: @inertial
    If you want to ruin a Czech's day tell them that they are from Eastern Europe.
    , @ken
    Yeah, unless she anglicized her name the v is a dead giveaway.
    , @Diversity Heretic
    Yes, she was Czech, but raised in Sweden, IIRC, due to a parental split. "The thinking man's Supermodel," she wrote books, had children, and stayed married to Ric.
  12. I discovered a sister term to ‘caucasity’, ‘white-ality’.

    The last time I seriously intended to skedaddle was in March 2014, when I went to New York for a working vacation. I reconnected with friends and family and did several readings. Hanging with folk I’ve known all my life and luxuriating in the warm embrace of an environment where I wasn’t incongruous filled me with a renewed sense of belonging. And, though my former hometown was gentrified to within an inch of being indistinguishable, it burst at the seams with vitality (though a bit too much “white-ality”). Bistros and bookstores had replaced barbershops and bodegas, and that industrious, chichi, upwardly mobile part of me saw plenty of opportunities to prosper. That had cinched it for me. I was putting together an exit strategy and a business plan on the plane back to Japan.

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2018/12/19/our-lives/2018-year-japan-began-listen/#.XX7GVWYo9PY

    This guys whole column series ‘Black Eye’ is amazing fodder. There is so much but I’ll limit to just one other excerpt.

    I expected Obama’s victory over there to result in changing attitudes over here. I expected Obama’s coup to be the mother lode of good vibrations that would reverberate wherever black people dwell. I knew it would inform black youth that their potential is unlimited, and that’s a beautiful thing, but was it powerful enough to have an impact on the Japanese assessment of “blackness” and to inspire some here to critically rethink the foul and/or ignorant notions that remain pervasive? Sad to report, I perceived not a smidgen of change. It’s like black excellence is viewed as an exception to the natural state of blackness.

    • Replies: @Bill B.
    Given how few blacks there are in Japan there is something extremely tedious about planting oneself on there and making a whole career off of perceived local reactions to oneself.
    , @Charon
    Sometimes I just can't help thinking...'Good Lord I am sick to death of negroes.'
    , @slumber_j

    Bistros and bookstores had replaced barbershops and bodegas
     
    I'll add a fifth b-word to that list: bullshit. Famously, bookstores haven't been replacing anything for a long time now.
    , @Ancient Briton
    White-ality rimes with vitality.
    , @El Dato

    I expected Obama’s coup to be the mother lode of good vibrations that would reverberate wherever black people dwell.
     
    Sorry. Indonesians are emitting on another frequency. There is no reception.
    , @Alden
    One black American President won’t undo the low and very accurate opinion of American blacks Japanese have formed after 75 years of American black military occupation.
  13. Saw the Cars in the late 1970s or early 1980s at Madison Square Garden. Simply the worst live act I can recall.Indifferent to the crowd, ran through their hits in workmanlike fashion, and didn’t play but 80 minutes during times when nobody cared about stage union OT. So bands usually played 2 hours even if they didn’t have that much material(and the Cars did not). Perhaps getting to the big time late in life made them jaded, but they played like they wanted to get off stage as soon as possible. May be to get with said Eastern Euro supermodels forthwith? RIP.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I never saw them. They didn't seem like a sincere Springsteen-type act that would really play their hearts out for the audience.
    , @Buzz Mohawk
    A friend saw them and said it was like staring at a Cars poster while listening to their albums.
    , @Mr. Anon
    I can understand why you felt cheated. They're entertainers, and if they are performing live, they should entertain.

    Still, I've never much liked rock concert performances. Pop music is such a synthetic creation that a lot of the sound depends on how it is produced in the studio. An orchestra can sound as good live as on a recording, but a rock group seldom so.
    , @Jack D
    The Cars were an MTV act. Seeing them live was bound to be disappointing because they couldn't do all the cute animations and special effects that they did in their videos which obscured the fact that when they were playing they pretty much just stood there and played - no outrageous costumes (by rock standards, no fireworks, etc.). The Cars had plenty of material if they were inclined to play it but it was better consumed in well crafted 3 minute videos.
    , @sasu
    First "real" concert unaccompanied by parents, 1981. As I recall Ocasek had on a widebrimmed hat and said maybe two words throughout the whole concert. I always thought the detachment was just part of their new wave mystique or something, or that he had serious stage fright. Or that maybe they knew "Shake it Up" was a crappy record. In any case, I like everything they did up until that record, and I'm still glad I got to see them.
    , @ngzax
    I had the same experience at a concert in Chicago. Worst big name band I ever saw live, hands down.
  14. @Wilkey
    The story I heard re: why so many rock stars wind up with supermodels is that they'd get directors to cast them in their music videos. Ocasek met Porizkova during filming of the music video for "Drive." He was married and 21 years her senior. He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.

    He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.

    Billy *COUGH* Joel

    • Agree: The Alarmist
    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    According to Joel in his recent autobiography, it was actually Christie Brinkley who came on to him---simultaneously with Elle MacPherson (then 19) and Whitney Houston.

    Joel states that he had just divorced his crazy manipulative first wife and fled to the Caribbean for a vacation. Joel was already famous at this point. Joel was still distraught on his divorce, but one night found an island piano bar and played himself happy. And around the piano flocked Brinkley, Houston, and MacPherson., all flirting with him.

    Eventually, the vacation ended, and Joel went back to NY. There, he simultaneously dated MacPherson and Brinkley, and even had a funny moment when both girls showed up at his apartment at the same time to go on a date with him. No threesomes for him, sadly; Brinkley coolly left, but she eventually won Joel from MacPherson.

    Or that's the story Joel is telling.

    Anyway, the moral of the story is: learn to play either the piano or the guitar well. No game or looks is required after that, the women will come to you. Have you ever known a loser lead guitar player in any band to be wanting for a girlfriend?

    , @Father O'Hara
    Billy turned into some kind of gnome as he aged.
    , @Charon
    May I remind you that Lyle Lovett snagged Julia Roberts. Yeah yeah, not really rock, but still.
  15. Chateau Heartiste ran polls and prime Porzikova was the only person rated a perfect 10.

    • Replies: @jb
    Of all the 80's supermodels I thought Paulina Porizkova was the most beautiful. And yet I remember reading an article she wrote once where she talked about how insecure she had always been about her looks!
    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    I've can't really argue with that.

    Peak Paulina was very, very, very very very good-looking.

    , @South Texas Guy
    I'd wholeheartedly agree. In her day, Paulina was absolutely stunning, and seemed to have kept most of her looks the last time I remember seeing her as a 40-something assassin in a relatively low-budget flick way 15 or so years back.
  16. They put a lot of effort into their music videos back then, lots of the artists, that is. When that song above was on MTV, in the early ’80’s, it was the heyday of MTV. They’d play 8 or 10 songs and then a commercial or two. That channel went to pot in about 1990 or so.

    Video killed the radio star.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    That was the first video ever aired on MTV, when it went on the air. They'd play it so often in that first year, circa 1981, that I'd wonder if was specially written for MTV, until I bought the 45 and saw that the credits on the label said 1979. As an aside, I try to explain to my kids how hard it was, in that age before google and the internet, to track down facts and follow up on on correlations one would notice.
    , @Lurker
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSUX9byu6NY
  17. I remember Heartiste shared a little ditty on how Ric and Paulina got together. She was cast in the video for “Drive”, and there is a scene in that video where Ric and Paulina are portraying a couple that is breaking up, and there is a lot of yelling from Ric and a lot of crying from Paulina. Apparently acting out that scene caused the two to form quite an emotional bond.

    • Agree: Aft
    • Replies: @Stebbing Heuer
    Pro-tip for ugly men seeking to date/marry a supermodel:

    Shout at her until she breaks down and cries.

    Recommended phrase: 'You know you can't go on thinking nothing's wrong, [insert name of bombshell here]. Who's going to drive you home? WHO'S GOING TO DRIVE YOU HOME??'
    , @The Alarmist

    Apparently acting out that scene caused the two to form quite an emotional bond.
     
    I took a drama class taught by one of the Universities that had offerings on base, and the prof teamed me up for that kind of scene with a girl who turned out to be the base commander's college-aged daughter. This is indeed powerful, but dangerous stuff.
  18. Polish model Paulina Porizkova

    Reminded me of this tweet:

    • Replies: @newrouter
    The Joyless Negro has to go back. Reparations $ will pay repatriation.
    , @Ripple Earthdevil
    Slovakia was part of Czechoslovakia, not Yugoslavia.
    , @Thirdeye
    "Soviet Yugoslavia?" WTF?
  19. @Wilkey
    The story I heard re: why so many rock stars wind up with supermodels is that they'd get directors to cast them in their music videos. Ocasek met Porizkova during filming of the music video for "Drive." He was married and 21 years her senior. He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.

    Ocasek was certainly one of the ugliest men I’ve ever seen, but Roger Waters, Tom Petty and Alice Cooper are up there with him.

    BTW, the music of The Cars was terrible.

    PS – no love for Eddie Money?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I saw Eddie Money (Eddie Mahoney) at a Houston bar in c. 1978. He was good. My vague memory is he came from a clan of New York cops and had briefly been a cop himself.
    , @Anonymous

    Ocasek was certainly one of the ugliest men I’ve ever seen, but Roger Waters, Tom Petty and Alice Cooper are up there with him.
     
    Waters was no looker but looked interesting. Perfect for the warped music that was Floyd.

    Petty was a pretty cool-looking guy. Ocasek looked weird than ugly. Perfect match of image and sound. A bit beetlejuicy.
    , @danand

    “no love for Eddie Money?”
     
    Mike,

    My Eddie Money story comes via my sister. Back in the mid ‘80’s one of my sisters close friends won a SF Bay Area radio contest. The prize was to have Eddie Money and his band perform at your party.

    My sisters friend had the party at her parents home in Santa Clara. Eddie, his band, and a small entourage showed up and performed a few songs. Eddie stayed for a few hours, most of the rest stayed past dawn. My sister said there were a lot of local girls at the party, and there was a lot of “activity” throughout the night. Eddie personally came through to ensure the friend was satisfied with the prize she had won.

    My sister was very disappointed in Eddie; as he had married to a much younger woman just a few months prior to the party. My sister was a few years junior Eddie’s bride and couldn't fathom how Eddie could “treat his wife” like that.

    PS - I personally wasn’t of the opinion that the Cars were terrible, but did tire of them relatively quickly; as most everyone I knew bought and wore out that first record.
    , @anonymous
    They probably didn't start out ugly but constant late nights, hard drinking, bad diet, smoking, and drugs don't make you pretty in the long run.
  20. Anon[280] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    I saw him once at the Masque, a tiny basement punk club run by Brendan Mullen during L.A.’s punk period. He wasn’t playing there. He was leaning against a wall with a model type girl on each side taking in the scene. In the context he was left alone, as if the clientele felt a little sorry for someone not as hip as they were.

  21. I see he also wasn’t into manspreading.

  22. RIP indeed…but it wasn’t Paulina in the “You Might Think” video. Model/actress named Susan Gallagher…who did not marry a rock star.

  23. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Two of the original five Cars are gone:
    Ric Ocasek – lead and backing vocals, rhythm guitar, keyboards (1976-1988, 2010-2011, 2018, died 2019)
    Elliot Easton – lead guitar, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018)
    Benjamin Orr – bass, backing and lead vocals (1976–1988; died 2000)
    David Robinson – drums, percussion, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018)
    Greg Hawkes – keyboards, guitars, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018), saxophone (1976-1979), bass (2010-2011)

    The Cars frontman Ric Ocasek found dead in Manhattan townhouse

    By Larry Celona and Jackie Salo

    September 15, 2019 | 8:10pm

    The Cars frontman Ric Ocasek found dead in Manhattan townhouse

    Ric Ocasek, the lead singer of iconic new wave rock band The Cars, was found dead in his Manhattan apartment on Sunday, law enforcement sources told The Post. He was 75 years old.

    Ocasek was discovered unconscious and unresponsive at around 4:14 p.m. inside his Gramercy Park pad by his estranged wife, Paulina Porizkova, sources said.

    He appeared to have died from natural causes, sources added.

    Ocasek and his seminal new wave band The Cars shot to fame with their self-titled hit album in the 1978, which included hits such as “My Best Friend’s Girl” and “Just What I Needed.”

    The singer reflected on his years in the band when he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame last year.

    “It’s certainly a wonderful feeling to be accepted by peers and you see the people that are in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, who gets inducted, it’s a positive feeling that you get,” Ocasek said in an interview with Rolling Stone.

    From 1978 to 1987, the band churned out six records — “five of which are good-to-great,” said Erik Adams, an AV Club music critic, in a 2018 article.

    “And then there are The Cars, the type of band that put out a perfect debut record, and then had the audacity to not pack it in after that,” the critic wrote.

    In 1984, the band received another notable accolade, winning MTV’s “Video of the Year” award for its hit song off its 5th album, “You Might Think.”

    After a long hiatus, the band reunited in 2011 and released an album called “Move Like This.” It was the band’s first, and only, album without late- bassist Benjamin Orr, who died in 2000.

    Ocasek had recently placed the home where he was found on the market after he and Porizkova announced their split in May 2018.

    The pair — who shared two children together — had been together for 28 years when they separated.

    https://pagesix.com/2019/09/15/the-cars-frontman-ric-ocasek-found-dead-in-manhattan-townhouse/

    Two of the original (Tom Petty) Heartbreakers are dead also. How many seventies/ eighties bands have all their original members still living?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    How many seventies/ eighties bands have all their original members still living?
     
    Or together? The Seekers, a Melbourne folk group with monster hits in the '60s, are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the original Ramones, who are all gone. They maintained the same lineup for over 50 years, far longer than anybody else. (Not counting married duos.)

    Ocasek and that Boston-the-band guy came from Ohio, and the leads in Aerosmith and J Geils were from New York. The whole "Beantown sound" was imported. I don't think there has ever been a true Yankee rock star-- and I mean that as a compliment!

    The most influential Massachusetts native in the rock era has to be Dick Dale. He was Lebanese and Slav, and made his name in California.

    Billy Squier is about the closest I can think to a Yankee rock idol. But I think the Squier family was in New Jersey in colonial days.
    , @Redneck farmer
    ZZ Top.
    , @Autochthon
    Kiss – all founders alive, but not together; retiring soon.

    The Police – all founders alive, not together.

    Rush – all founders alive, and together until they recently retired.

    Van Halen – all founders alive, not together.

    The Cure – all founders alive, not together.

    Genesis – all founders alive, not together.

    Actually, very many indeed rock bands who were big in the seventies and eighties have all their founding members still alive. Hell, it can even be said of Guns 'n' Roses – the poster children for self-destructive sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll!

    More rockstars should retire, by the way; it's far more dignified than becoming a parody of oneself. Paul Stanley, who had an amazing vocal range in his day, now warbles and rasps his way through shows; he should have retired sooner.

    Robert Plant has maintained his dignity by shifting to traditional folk and blues material (his roots, really, anyway); if he were still prancing around wailing, though, it would be embarrassing, and I reckon he knows this. His choice is acceptable, but most elderly rockers do not follow this example; Mick Jagger struts around like he is some young lion oozing sex appeal – it's pathetic.

    Even Phil Collins, who's never been pretentious whatsoever, is a shadow of himself: he sits on a stool and sings everything in a much lower key, unable to play drums any more at all. (Perhaps he's forced to keep working to fend off his parasitic ex-wives?)

    Why have so few learned the lesson of fat Elvis?
  24. @Wilkey
    The story I heard re: why so many rock stars wind up with supermodels is that they'd get directors to cast them in their music videos. Ocasek met Porizkova during filming of the music video for "Drive." He was married and 21 years her senior. He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.

    Being a rock star definitely has its advantages….

  25. Certainly an interesting video from a PUA perspective. Basically an ugly older guy is negging a supermodel and forcing her to qualify herself to him. I’m sure this works from time to time.

  26. Mrs. O separated from Mr. O last year, or so, …

    …only a decade, or so, after Mr. O produced this:

    bored identity doesn’t mind coming here
    wasting all his time…

  27. Why do rock stars f***, and frequently marry supermodels?

    Because they can.

  28. “Drive,” interestingly enough, was sung by bassist Benjamin Orr.

  29. Steve, that is not Paulina in that particular video. According to wikipedia,

    The video features band leader Ric Ocasek and model Susan Gallagher in a series of encounters

    Paulina appeared in the video for “Drive”.

    the Polish model Paulina Porizkova

    BTW, Paulina is a Czech, not a Pole.

    • Replies: @bored identity
    Stop snopesing every word!


    Uncle Sailer is Uncle Joe of iSteve, and bored identity likes it that way.
    , @Anonymous
    This is Alexander Jefferson level screw-up.
    , @Joe Schmoe
    Isn't Ocasek a Czech, too?
  30. I will always remember Paulina Porizkova primarily for raping Thomas Jayne in Thursday.

    • Replies: @bored identity
    bored identity wonders would this be a proper situation for men nowadays to say :

    me too !


    ???
    , @OzzyBonHalen
    That's what I remember her for , too. That was one insane, really good and seriously overlooked movie.
  31. His marriage to Paulina lasted a long time, and that’s saying something.

    “Good Times Roll” was the first song on The Cars great first album. It was the perfect introduction to their sound, and it made a big impression when first heard on the radio.

    • Replies: @Kibernetika
    Damn, for anyone who attended university near Boston in the mid- to-late seventies this news sucks especially :(

    https://youtu.be/UvI1RhNvQro
    , @Ganderson
    Great song great record
  32. He was also in the original Hairspray accompanying Pia Zadora, an unusual pairing to be sure.

  33. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Ocasek was certainly one of the ugliest men I've ever seen, but Roger Waters, Tom Petty and Alice Cooper are up there with him.

    BTW, the music of The Cars was terrible.

    PS - no love for Eddie Money?

    I saw Eddie Money (Eddie Mahoney) at a Houston bar in c. 1978. He was good. My vague memory is he came from a clan of New York cops and had briefly been a cop himself.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    I literally bumped into Tom Petty at this place back around 1994:

    http://jamminjersey.com/
    , @Dave Pinsen
    https://twitter.com/johncardillo/status/1172584089251143681?s=21
  34. @Steve Sailer
    I saw Eddie Money (Eddie Mahoney) at a Houston bar in c. 1978. He was good. My vague memory is he came from a clan of New York cops and had briefly been a cop himself.

    I literally bumped into Tom Petty at this place back around 1994:

    http://jamminjersey.com/

  35. Meanwile,

    “Corn Pop was a bad dude. And he ran a bunch of bad boys…” :

    There goes S.Carolina primary down the drain.

    • LOL: Daniel H
    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    I thought it was a pretty good story. How many politicians have fought delinquent greaser gangs armed with rusty shaving razors with a pool chain?

    Could Yang, Beto or Booker tell a similar story?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o-7MmhqNfA
    , @Father O'Hara
    The Corn Pop story was hilarious. I believe every word! If only our black thugs of today were more like Corn Pop.
    , @Hypnotoad666
    But who would win in a fight: Biden's imaginary gang friend "Corn Pop," or Cory Booker's imaginary gang friend "T-Bone?"

    Then, Booker said, “he looked at me with this vicious ferocity that he looked at me with when he first threatened my life, and he bit down hard on his lip and he burst into tears and he started crying and sobbing into my dashboard.” He told the New School in February 2007, “That rift between me and T-Bone was inches, we sat there, but I felt so alienated that there was a gulf as wide as the Grand Canyon between us, and I could not reach out to save this young man, and we drove back to Brick Towers, and I’ve never seen him again since that day.”
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/2013/08/cory-bookers-imaginary-friend-eliana-johnson/amp/
     
    I heard that T-Bone eventually got married and settled down with Obama's imaginary "composite white girlfriend." https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/2/president-says-girlfriend-book-was-composite/

    So Cory's imaginary melodrama has a happy ending.
  36. @Bugg
    Saw the Cars in the late 1970s or early 1980s at Madison Square Garden. Simply the worst live act I can recall.Indifferent to the crowd, ran through their hits in workmanlike fashion, and didn't play but 80 minutes during times when nobody cared about stage union OT. So bands usually played 2 hours even if they didn't have that much material(and the Cars did not). Perhaps getting to the big time late in life made them jaded, but they played like they wanted to get off stage as soon as possible. May be to get with said Eastern Euro supermodels forthwith? RIP.

    I never saw them. They didn’t seem like a sincere Springsteen-type act that would really play their hearts out for the audience.

    • Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Yeah, they seemed like a band that mostly loved the studio. Experimenting with the synths, and perfecting the recording mix. When you watch some of the documentary bits (on youtube) covering the early years of the band, they got jinxed in Europe around 1979 by bad press which framed them as Corporate Rock, too produced, too slick & heavily marketed.
    Apparently Ben Orr had a drug habit that got quite bad for a few years but it's not clear if that was causative in his cancer & death 20 years ago.
    In retrospect, Ric has done well to reach 75. He accomplished a lot.
    Hope they release a DVD of their 1982 performance at the US Festival. Only two songs of it on youtube. So much of the US Festival footage is being held hostage by recording labels, various legal squabbles.
  37. @Abe

    He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.
     
    Billy *COUGH* Joel

    According to Joel in his recent autobiography, it was actually Christie Brinkley who came on to him—simultaneously with Elle MacPherson (then 19) and Whitney Houston.

    Joel states that he had just divorced his crazy manipulative first wife and fled to the Caribbean for a vacation. Joel was already famous at this point. Joel was still distraught on his divorce, but one night found an island piano bar and played himself happy. And around the piano flocked Brinkley, Houston, and MacPherson., all flirting with him.

    Eventually, the vacation ended, and Joel went back to NY. There, he simultaneously dated MacPherson and Brinkley, and even had a funny moment when both girls showed up at his apartment at the same time to go on a date with him. No threesomes for him, sadly; Brinkley coolly left, but she eventually won Joel from MacPherson.

    Or that’s the story Joel is telling.

    Anyway, the moral of the story is: learn to play either the piano or the guitar well. No game or looks is required after that, the women will come to you. Have you ever known a loser lead guitar player in any band to be wanting for a girlfriend?

    • Replies: @anonymous
    There are other morals to this terrible story.

    The mating of the most beautiful Nordic model Christie Brinkley with the ahem Billy Joel resulted in their hideous skank daughter. This is a very strong case against race mixing and for birth control:

    https://images.app.goo.gl/4wYWk4W6FEn2zG1q7
  38. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    I don't know, Mick Jagger is one ugly dude. Be interesting to rank ugliest rock singers.

    Bowie eventually aged into handsomeness, but the classic rock star look tended to be symmetrical but unusual: too delicate or too alien or too gaunt or too something to be movie star handsome: e.g., Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith. Johnny Depp is a rare movie star who also looks like a rock star. Maybe Val Kilmer too.

    Generally, square-jawed Tom Cruise handsomeness isn’t what rock stars have. Rock stars typically have high cheekbones and small jaws.

    In general, rock stars tend to be heterosexuals with some effeminate traits, such as dancing ability and loving the crowd’s adoration. E.g., Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn’t really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That’s his dad’s character he’s playing. Bruce admits he’s more of a delicate artsy type.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Bowie probably hit peak handsomeness in his mid-fifties. Here he is at 55.

    https://youtu.be/3gk1DcFz-Uc

    Another rock star who fits the phenotype you describe here - and looks like a somewhat handsomer Ric Ocasek - is Richard Ashcroft.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/1173044347589275648?s=21
    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    A music star's good looks, or lack thereof, is one theme in 'The Commitments', a movie I'm very fond of.

    The lead singer of the eponymous group is a 17-year-old who's described as having a voice from God (he really does; it's incredible). As an adolescent guy who's becoming a star, he expects girls to fall at his feet, but the problem is that he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook. He's got none of that gamine rock star look going for him. Instead, he's all beefy and sweaty, and the girls in the band think he looks like a pig.

    https://tageswoche.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/imagescms-image-004725278-980x653.jpg
    , @anonymous2space
    John Lennon disparaged Mick's "faggy" dancing as well as his ripping off the Beatles.


    That could come off as prickly jealousy but nobody can say it wasn't true. So, a typical Lennon statement.

    John literally wrote the Stones' first hit and they really did copy the Beatles and Mick's dancing really was well, whatever, but John certainly wasn't wrong-wrong.
    , @peterike

    Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn’t really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That’s his dad’s character he’s playing. Bruce admits he’s more of a delicate artsy type.
     
    In other words, a phony and a class traitor. But, one must admit, a brilliant role player. Probably the best con man in musical history and a stone-cold great songwriter, possibly the best rock song writer ever.

    This is why Bruce ended up being a fey Leftist squish rather than the lunch-box Trump supporter he should be. The best that can be said of him is that he may have truly empathized with the plight of the white working class. But then he's too stupid to realize the politics he supports is a knife blade aimed right at the heart of the people he came from.
    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Another interesting thread is the changing masculinity of rock stars as you moved from the 1970s to 1980s. I was just a kid in the 70s, but looking at pictures of bands from the 70s, they seemed much more masculine (and, frankly, hairier) compared to 80s bands. (Queen being an obvious exception.)

    Even the 80s heavy metal bands were more effeminate compared to their 70s counter-parts. Actually, maybe effeminate isn't quite the right word. The 80s saw a slew of soy-boy bands, likely because college was becoming the main breeding ground of bands as well as how they made a name for themselves on tour. A band such as REM just screams college guys singing songs that college kids would like.

    Thankfully, The Replacements saved the day.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AH5NVFHeu4
    , @James J. O'Meara
    "In general, rock stars tend to be heterosexuals with some effeminate traits, such as dancing ability and loving the crowd’s adoration."

    Like that big fag Henry VIII. Or every other mediaeval/early modern monarch. It's not gender, it's race: white people aren't supposed to dance anymore.
    , @Thirdeye
    Here's a square-jawed rock star for ya!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCeCHe5sH2w
    , @Gandydancer
    "Generally, square-jawed Tom Cruise handsomeness isn’t what rock stars have. Rock stars typically have high cheekbones and small jaws."

    Except that the lead vocals on a lot of the best Cars songs were sung by Benjamin Orr, a reasonably handsome guy in my estimation.
  39. @Wilkey
    The story I heard re: why so many rock stars wind up with supermodels is that they'd get directors to cast them in their music videos. Ocasek met Porizkova during filming of the music video for "Drive." He was married and 21 years her senior. He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.

    All women love musicians who play guitar, piano, or sing well.

    If you become famous/good at it there’s a never-ending supply of models and 10s at your beck and call.

    Excuse me while I go practice my scales.

  40. Eddie Money… came from a clan of New York cops and had briefly been a cop himself.

    Boy George came from a clan of Irish boxers, and was briefly one himself:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jan/16/boy-george-sentenced-handcuffing-male-escort

    You’ll note from his age that Ocasek didn’t hit it big until his mid-30s…

    Others in that position were Sting, Ian Hunter, Debbie Harry, Cindy Lauper, Sheryl Crow, Pat Benatar, and, in a way, Bruce Springsteen. He had an early career as a cult figure, but had a four-year break due to contractual problems before hitting the big time. I was one of his earliest fans, and one of his earliest ex-fans.

    No one else I knew recognized Manfred Mann’s “douche” cover as Springsteen.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Deb was on her second go-around, having been with a trippy baroque folk rock group put out by Artie Kornfeld of Woodstock fame, called Wind in the Willows, circa 1968/69. They sounded like a cross between the Mamas and the Papas and It's A Beautiful Day, with a trifle Jefferson Airplane thrown in there. They really were pretty good, but they came out about a year too late, and their second album never got released. Supposedly the masters are lost, but rumor has it Peter Leeds (who was involved with Blondie, later, early on, and who D and Chris hate, hate, hate, he did fuck them over) has it stashed somewhere.

    D does not like to talk about this , I've brought it up and it was clear she was upset about something and I dropped the matter. I've also talked to (now Dr.) Wayne Kirby (currently a professor at UNC Asheville) about it and he seemed to not want to revisit the matter either.

    In about two weeks , Debbie's autobiography (also in a sense her second go around, after the largely autobiographical Making Tracks) will be released. Steve, you know, it would be a good idea really for you to review this book.

    , @Bubba

    No one else I knew recognized Manfred Mann’s “douche” cover as Springsteen.
     
    Thanks for the memories. One of my older sisters (a young teenager at the time) was an early, huge fan of Bruce Springsteen and constantly playing that "Greetings from Asbury Park" album so I had memorized "Blinded By the Light" by the end of 1974. At the time I kept asking her what the lyrics meant, but never got any satisfactory answers (even to this day as I remind her on most Thanksgiving dinners). A couple of years later I was completely baffled by the Manfred Mann success and the word "douche" when it was supposed to be "deuce."

    At the same time another older sister (again, a young teenager) was in love with Elton John and playing his "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" album whenever Bruce Springsteen wasn't blaring from the record player in their room. So I memorized most of those songs too, but whenever I had a question about the lyrics she would just hand me the double album cover (which they both covered with foil and used for tanning purposes prior to prom time), open it up to the lyrics and tell me to figure it out. When I kept asking her, "Why do "All the Young Girls Love Alice"?", she would tell me to "shut up" and tell me take out the newspapers or feed the dog.

    I was completely oblivious and somewhat annoyed with their infatuation with Bruce Springsteen and Elton John because I found this Saturday morning cartoon far more entertaining than any of their lyrics:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPoBE-E8VOc
  41. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    I don't know, Mick Jagger is one ugly dude. Be interesting to rank ugliest rock singers.

    The great line about Mick Jagger I heard was that “Mick Jagger looks like Don Knotts.” It has always stuck with me.

    There have been vague attempts by some to paint the always-on-the-prowl Jagger as “handsome” or “pretty” but it’s all just old arty camera shots and his publicists working hard for him.

    • Replies: @South Texas Guy

    The great line about Mick Jagger I heard was that “Mick Jagger looks like Don Knotts.
     
    I believe I remember seeing one of those biography programs that said Knotts was actually quite the ladies man back in the 60s post 'Mayberry.'
    , @Daniel H
    Mick Jagger is unusual looking, interesting to look at, attractive in a strange way to the eyes of both men and women, but he is in no way handsome.

    Here is a photo of Mick with his squeeze of the time, Marianne Faithful sitting with Alain Delon, the classically handsome French actor. Mick - with his skinny physique, rock and roll, unkempt clothes - looks like a court jester or fool compared to the very handsome and perfectly coiffed and clothed Delon. I wonder if this photo grated on Mick.

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2508/8586/t/6/assets/description_image_marianne-faithfull.jpg?14243084856038419497

  42. @istevefan
    Steve, that is not Paulina in that particular video. According to wikipedia,

    The video features band leader Ric Ocasek and model Susan Gallagher in a series of encounters
     
    Paulina appeared in the video for "Drive".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuZA6qiJVfU

    the Polish model Paulina Porizkova
     
    BTW, Paulina is a Czech, not a Pole.

    Stop snopesing every word!

    Uncle Sailer is Uncle Joe of iSteve, and bored identity likes it that way.

  43. Ocasek had SIX sons! God bless him. He will definitely RIP.

    Let’s Go was my favorite Cars song. Great band. Signified an era 79-85…at least for me.

    He wasn’t ugly either. Men shouldn’t denigrate other men’s looks. It’s FAGGY.

  44. @anonymous
    Chateau Heartiste ran polls and prime Porzikova was the only person rated a perfect 10.


    https://iv1.lisimg.com/image/1985743/323full-paulina-porizkova.jpg

    Of all the 80’s supermodels I thought Paulina Porizkova was the most beautiful. And yet I remember reading an article she wrote once where she talked about how insecure she had always been about her looks!

    • Replies: @Tlotsi
    Supposedly, she had bad teeth.
  45. • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    https://d1w7fb2mkkr3kw.cloudfront.net/assets/images/book/lrg/9781/8598/9781859844861.jpg
  46. • Replies: @MEH 0910
    https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/8459509/the-cars-debut-album-1978

    "We used to joke that the first album should be called The Cars Greatest Hits,” Easton joked in the liners to Just What I Needed.
     
  47. @Steve Sailer
    Bowie eventually aged into handsomeness, but the classic rock star look tended to be symmetrical but unusual: too delicate or too alien or too gaunt or too something to be movie star handsome: e.g., Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith. Johnny Depp is a rare movie star who also looks like a rock star. Maybe Val Kilmer too.

    Generally, square-jawed Tom Cruise handsomeness isn't what rock stars have. Rock stars typically have high cheekbones and small jaws.

    In general, rock stars tend to be heterosexuals with some effeminate traits, such as dancing ability and loving the crowd's adoration. E.g., Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn't really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That's his dad's character he's playing. Bruce admits he's more of a delicate artsy type.

    Bowie probably hit peak handsomeness in his mid-fifties. Here he is at 55.

    Another rock star who fits the phenotype you describe here – and looks like a somewhat handsomer Ric Ocasek – is Richard Ashcroft.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    The awfullest tale of an artist getting ripped off of his song writing royalties by his manager is the case of John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival and Saul Zantz. It is true, that Fogerty willingly signed away his royalties in a fit of anger. Fogerty is a hot head. There was tension in Creedence at the time and he didn't want to work with his bandmates anymore but Creedence had a few albums left that they were committed to record for Fantasy records. Instead of consulting a lawyer and finding away around the problem Fogerty signed away ALL of his songwriting royalties to get out of the record deal. Let's sit back and think. Fogerty signed away Proud Mary, Bad Moon Rising, Green River, Fortunate Son, Travelin Band, Who'll Stop the Rain, Up Around the Bend, Have You ever seen the Rain, Hey Tonight, Sweet Hitchhiker.... This catalogue has been played continuously from 1969 up untill the present day. Easily, tens of millions of songwriting royalties never landed in Fogerty's pocket because of this impulsive act. It seems to me the deal should have been voided as unconscionable.

    Anyway, there is a somewhat satisfactory ending to the tale. Around 10 years ago, some hedge fund mogul who was a big fan of Creedence, bought the songwriting catalogue from Zantz's estate and sold them to Fogerty on very favorable terms. Today, John Fogerty owns all of his songwriting royalties.
  48. 75? I thought he was younger, considering The Cars was a band that only got a break in the 1980s, he was therefore in his late 30s then. Anyway, that an famous but ugly dude like Ocasek married a hot young model proves that evolutionary biology is right that men look for fertile women and women look for a guy with a dependable income

  49. @Glaivester
    I will always remember Paulina Porizkova primarily for raping Thomas Jayne in Thursday.

    bored identity wonders would this be a proper situation for men nowadays to say :

    me too !

    ???

  50. @anonymous
    Chateau Heartiste ran polls and prime Porzikova was the only person rated a perfect 10.


    https://iv1.lisimg.com/image/1985743/323full-paulina-porizkova.jpg

    I’ve can’t really argue with that.

    Peak Paulina was very, very, very very very good-looking.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Is there anything more to life than being really, really, really ridiculously good-looking?
    , @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    , @Unladen Swallow
    No you can't, but want to know something incredible? Paulina Porizkova and Elle Macpherson ( aka The Body ) were roommates in NYC in the early 1980's. Between them they made 5 consecutive SI swimsuit covers.
  51. @Achmed E. Newman
    They put a lot of effort into their music videos back then, lots of the artists, that is. When that song above was on MTV, in the early '80's, it was the heyday of MTV. They'd play 8 or 10 songs and then a commercial or two. That channel went to pot in about 1990 or so.

    Video killed the radio star.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwuy4hHO3YQ

    That was the first video ever aired on MTV, when it went on the air. They’d play it so often in that first year, circa 1981, that I’d wonder if was specially written for MTV, until I bought the 45 and saw that the credits on the label said 1979. As an aside, I try to explain to my kids how hard it was, in that age before google and the internet, to track down facts and follow up on on correlations one would notice.

  52. @bored identity
    Meanwile,

    “Corn Pop was a bad dude. And he ran a bunch of bad boys...” :

    https://youtu.be/up9diHYgZ0g


    There goes S.Carolina primary down the drain.

    I thought it was a pretty good story. How many politicians have fought delinquent greaser gangs armed with rusty shaving razors with a pool chain?

    Could Yang, Beto or Booker tell a similar story?

    • Replies: @william munny
    That immediately came to my mind too.
    , @BenKenobi
    “Where was I? Oh right. So I was friends with segregationists, which was the style at the time.”
  53. RIP, Ric Ocasek. I’m reminded that I, like a lot people in my age cohort in America, were big on the Cars as the entry point into early New Wave generally, and that interest in punk followed that, rather than the other way around. I’m still mourning the loss, in a flood a few years ago, of my entire 400+ LP and EP collection of New Wave from that period, roughly from 1978-1983.

  54. @Anonymous
    Two of the original five Cars are gone:
    Ric Ocasek – lead and backing vocals, rhythm guitar, keyboards (1976-1988, 2010-2011, 2018, died 2019)
    Elliot Easton – lead guitar, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018)
    Benjamin Orr – bass, backing and lead vocals (1976–1988; died 2000)
    David Robinson – drums, percussion, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018)
    Greg Hawkes – keyboards, guitars, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018), saxophone (1976-1979), bass (2010-2011)



    The Cars frontman Ric Ocasek found dead in Manhattan townhouse


    By Larry Celona and Jackie Salo

    September 15, 2019 | 8:10pm

    The Cars frontman Ric Ocasek found dead in Manhattan townhouse


    Ric Ocasek, the lead singer of iconic new wave rock band The Cars, was found dead in his Manhattan apartment on Sunday, law enforcement sources told The Post. He was 75 years old.

    Ocasek was discovered unconscious and unresponsive at around 4:14 p.m. inside his Gramercy Park pad by his estranged wife, Paulina Porizkova, sources said.

    He appeared to have died from natural causes, sources added.

    Ocasek and his seminal new wave band The Cars shot to fame with their self-titled hit album in the 1978, which included hits such as “My Best Friend’s Girl” and “Just What I Needed.”

    The singer reflected on his years in the band when he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame last year.

    “It’s certainly a wonderful feeling to be accepted by peers and you see the people that are in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, who gets inducted, it’s a positive feeling that you get,” Ocasek said in an interview with Rolling Stone.

    From 1978 to 1987, the band churned out six records — “five of which are good-to-great,” said Erik Adams, an AV Club music critic, in a 2018 article.

    “And then there are The Cars, the type of band that put out a perfect debut record, and then had the audacity to not pack it in after that,” the critic wrote.

    In 1984, the band received another notable accolade, winning MTV’s “Video of the Year” award for its hit song off its 5th album, “You Might Think.”

    After a long hiatus, the band reunited in 2011 and released an album called “Move Like This.” It was the band’s first, and only, album without late- bassist Benjamin Orr, who died in 2000.

    Ocasek had recently placed the home where he was found on the market after he and Porizkova announced their split in May 2018.

    The pair — who shared two children together — had been together for 28 years when they separated.
     
    https://pagesix.com/2019/09/15/the-cars-frontman-ric-ocasek-found-dead-in-manhattan-townhouse/

    Two of the original (Tom Petty) Heartbreakers are dead also. How many seventies/ eighties bands have all their original members still living?

    How many seventies/ eighties bands have all their original members still living?

    Or together? The Seekers, a Melbourne folk group with monster hits in the ’60s, are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the original Ramones, who are all gone. They maintained the same lineup for over 50 years, far longer than anybody else. (Not counting married duos.)

    Ocasek and that Boston-the-band guy came from Ohio, and the leads in Aerosmith and J Geils were from New York. The whole “Beantown sound” was imported. I don’t think there has ever been a true Yankee rock star– and I mean that as a compliment!

    The most influential Massachusetts native in the rock era has to be Dick Dale. He was Lebanese and Slav, and made his name in California.

    Billy Squier is about the closest I can think to a Yankee rock idol. But I think the Squier family was in New Jersey in colonial days.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Dick Dale was a very remarkable man who I got to know a little bit, but his influence was more second and third hand. Before Quentin Tarantino used Misirlou

    Written by Fred Wise, Milton Leeds, Bob Russell, and Nicholas Roubanis
    Performed by Dick Dale (as Dick Dale & His Del-Tones)
    Courtesy of Rhino Records
     
    in Pulp Fiction he was known only to a few guitar geeks and old guys who were Southern California surfers in the late fifties and early 60s.

    He'd been on the cover of Guitar Player in the early to mid 80s and there was a sort of surf revival associated with SoCal punk and new wave at along that time, but I was absolutely unable to find a single Dick Dale record in the Midwest for several years. I think the first modern album rerelease occurred at right about the time that Ben (brother of MTM Show Ed) Asner's Caper's Corner record store ceased operations. He had been well and truly swept under the carpet.

    His history was interesting. He knocked around Southern California surfing and tried his hand at acting. (He was one of the three Elvis imitator prospects shown in the casting scene in Let's Make Love, essentially an Elvis movie with Marilyn Monroe in the vehicle driving role, and her last color film to be finished.) He developed an especially loud and intense guitar style and his playing was so intense he melted picks and caused Fender guitar amplifiers to blow up, causing Fender to heavily ruggedize their stuff which made, in turn, hard rock possible. (He was friends with Leo Fender who regarded him as the official Fender torture tester.) Most especially, Fender had the JBL D-130-F speaker designed, the first truly Daleproof driver ever designed and today popular with (and consequently very expensive now to buy) both guitarists and the twiode twat extreme hi fi fans who use them for subwoofers.)

    He played left handed on a left handed guitar strung right handed but with extremely heavy strings, even for the day in which he played. (By contrast, Jimi Hendrix played left handed on a right handed guitar strung left handed.) Hendrix and, well, every other early 'heavy' guitarist credited him as an influence, but his actual music was mostly unknown outside California.

    Another interesting aside: there was at the time Dale was working, another guy named Dick Dale who was also making music-with Lawrence Welk of all people! Aside from his name, he has had a Ramsey Kearney like footnote notoriety with this gem:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8tdmaEhMHE&list=RDt8tdmaEhMHE
    , @Autochthon

    The whole “Beantown sound” was imported. I don’t think there has ever been a true Yankee rock star– and I mean that as a compliment!
     
    https://youtu.be/IqP76XWHQI0

    (Technically, Bettencourt did not arrive in Massachusetts from Portugal until he was four, but that hardly makes him a poseur from out of town....)

    I do concede, they are about the only ones, but their innovation of what they called "funky metal music" and its influence on others, along with their virtuosity makes asserting no rockstar has ever come from Boston like saying no rockstar has ever come from Tupelo....
    , @Ancient Briton
    James Taylor, born in Boston and inducted in the Rock&Roll HoF - but not my idea of a rocker.
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican

    The most influential Massachusetts native in the rock era has to be Dick Dale.
     
    Reg, you missed the big one:

    Charles Michael Kittridge Thompson IV

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixies_(band)#Legacy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Francis
  55. @Bugg
    Saw the Cars in the late 1970s or early 1980s at Madison Square Garden. Simply the worst live act I can recall.Indifferent to the crowd, ran through their hits in workmanlike fashion, and didn't play but 80 minutes during times when nobody cared about stage union OT. So bands usually played 2 hours even if they didn't have that much material(and the Cars did not). Perhaps getting to the big time late in life made them jaded, but they played like they wanted to get off stage as soon as possible. May be to get with said Eastern Euro supermodels forthwith? RIP.

    A friend saw them and said it was like staring at a Cars poster while listening to their albums.

  56. @Steve Sailer
    Bowie eventually aged into handsomeness, but the classic rock star look tended to be symmetrical but unusual: too delicate or too alien or too gaunt or too something to be movie star handsome: e.g., Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith. Johnny Depp is a rare movie star who also looks like a rock star. Maybe Val Kilmer too.

    Generally, square-jawed Tom Cruise handsomeness isn't what rock stars have. Rock stars typically have high cheekbones and small jaws.

    In general, rock stars tend to be heterosexuals with some effeminate traits, such as dancing ability and loving the crowd's adoration. E.g., Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn't really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That's his dad's character he's playing. Bruce admits he's more of a delicate artsy type.

    A music star’s good looks, or lack thereof, is one theme in ‘The Commitments’, a movie I’m very fond of.

    The lead singer of the eponymous group is a 17-year-old who’s described as having a voice from God (he really does; it’s incredible). As an adolescent guy who’s becoming a star, he expects girls to fall at his feet, but the problem is that he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook. He’s got none of that gamine rock star look going for him. Instead, he’s all beefy and sweaty, and the girls in the band think he looks like a pig.

    • Replies: @Pericles

    the problem is that he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook. He’s got none of that gamine rock star look going for him. Instead, he’s all beefy and sweaty, and the girls in the band think he looks like a pig.

     

    True, true. Nevertheless, a friend of mine at university claimed he once picked up a girl by his looks reminding her of this singer whatever his name is. He did look a bit like him.
    , @Cloudbuster
    I'm pretty sure Meat Loaf never had any trouble getting laid and he's also a sweaty pig.
    , @Autochthon

    Described as having a voice from God (he really does; it’s incredible)...he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook[;] all beefy and sweaty[,] he looks like a pig.
     
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wDyK-Nnwn0Q/maxresdefault.jpg

    http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Tara+LeVox+52nd+Annual+ASCAP+Country+Music+kbSLQPv3zLbl.jpg

    http://adeleisfat.weebly.com/uploads/7/9/2/1/7921072/2422916_orig.jpg

    Those with truly amazing pipes are sometimes allowed to be tubby and make it big....

    Rockstars are, by definition, though, outliers. Go to any music department at a university and most of the best vocalists are chubby if not obese; this trend holds even among the majority of working singers – in night clubs, musical theatre, and so on (it's harder to make it big on Broadway or sell out arenas, though, without being attractive, too). I've often suspected one reason the guys in Kiss adopted the gimmick of the make-up is that they cleverly realised how ugly they were, and used it to avoid competing with the pretty boys of glam-rock who reigned supreme at the time. Peter Gabriel was a very handsome young man who nevertheless adopted make-up and masks, and even that crazily shaven hair with nothing but success to show for it – still, his peak commercial fame came later, when he cut his hair, took off the make-up, and began dressing like the leading man for a romantic comedy from central casting (around the time of So.

    Is there any single trait that can make life so dramatically difficult or easy as the mere accident of being born ugly or gorgeous? I really don't think there is....
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    Christopher Cross was doomed by being both unsightly and the explosion of MTV. The guy had a great voice though.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    Harry Nilsson, who didn't look all that bad, like an oversized Swedish gnome, had a perfectly respectable and remunerative career entirely in the studio.
  57. @Buzz Mohawk
    His marriage to Paulina lasted a long time, and that's saying something.

    "Good Times Roll" was the first song on The Cars great first album. It was the perfect introduction to their sound, and it made a big impression when first heard on the radio.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BDBzgHXf64

    Damn, for anyone who attended university near Boston in the mid- to-late seventies this news sucks especially 🙁

    • Replies: @Clyde
    Nice! Very nice! Live and rawish Cars. Downloaded to me computer via this mp3 converter >>>>> https://freegrabapp.com/product/free-youtube-to-mp3-converter/
  58. @Steve Sailer
    I saw Eddie Money (Eddie Mahoney) at a Houston bar in c. 1978. He was good. My vague memory is he came from a clan of New York cops and had briefly been a cop himself.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Bobby Sherman (still kicking)

    From best-selling music artist to LA EMT


    http://bobbyshermanfound.tripod.com/bsmd35.jpg
    , @ScarletNumber
    Money wasn't a cop per se, but rather a clerk/typist for the NYPD.
  59. The best musicians in the band were Easton (lead guitar) and Orr (bass guitar/vocals). Not sure if Ocasek knew anything more than barre chords. No offense intended to Ric O, just saying.

  60. @The Last Real Calvinist
    I've can't really argue with that.

    Peak Paulina was very, very, very very very good-looking.

    Is there anything more to life than being really, really, really ridiculously good-looking?

  61. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    How many seventies/ eighties bands have all their original members still living?
     
    Or together? The Seekers, a Melbourne folk group with monster hits in the '60s, are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the original Ramones, who are all gone. They maintained the same lineup for over 50 years, far longer than anybody else. (Not counting married duos.)

    Ocasek and that Boston-the-band guy came from Ohio, and the leads in Aerosmith and J Geils were from New York. The whole "Beantown sound" was imported. I don't think there has ever been a true Yankee rock star-- and I mean that as a compliment!

    The most influential Massachusetts native in the rock era has to be Dick Dale. He was Lebanese and Slav, and made his name in California.

    Billy Squier is about the closest I can think to a Yankee rock idol. But I think the Squier family was in New Jersey in colonial days.

    Dick Dale was a very remarkable man who I got to know a little bit, but his influence was more second and third hand. Before Quentin Tarantino used Misirlou

    Written by Fred Wise, Milton Leeds, Bob Russell, and Nicholas Roubanis
    Performed by Dick Dale (as Dick Dale & His Del-Tones)
    Courtesy of Rhino Records

    in Pulp Fiction he was known only to a few guitar geeks and old guys who were Southern California surfers in the late fifties and early 60s.

    He’d been on the cover of Guitar Player in the early to mid 80s and there was a sort of surf revival associated with SoCal punk and new wave at along that time, but I was absolutely unable to find a single Dick Dale record in the Midwest for several years. I think the first modern album rerelease occurred at right about the time that Ben (brother of MTM Show Ed) Asner’s Caper’s Corner record store ceased operations. He had been well and truly swept under the carpet.

    His history was interesting. He knocked around Southern California surfing and tried his hand at acting. (He was one of the three Elvis imitator prospects shown in the casting scene in Let’s Make Love, essentially an Elvis movie with Marilyn Monroe in the vehicle driving role, and her last color film to be finished.) He developed an especially loud and intense guitar style and his playing was so intense he melted picks and caused Fender guitar amplifiers to blow up, causing Fender to heavily ruggedize their stuff which made, in turn, hard rock possible. (He was friends with Leo Fender who regarded him as the official Fender torture tester.) Most especially, Fender had the JBL D-130-F speaker designed, the first truly Daleproof driver ever designed and today popular with (and consequently very expensive now to buy) both guitarists and the twiode twat extreme hi fi fans who use them for subwoofers.)

    He played left handed on a left handed guitar strung right handed but with extremely heavy strings, even for the day in which he played. (By contrast, Jimi Hendrix played left handed on a right handed guitar strung left handed.) Hendrix and, well, every other early ‘heavy’ guitarist credited him as an influence, but his actual music was mostly unknown outside California.

    Another interesting aside: there was at the time Dale was working, another guy named Dick Dale who was also making music-with Lawrence Welk of all people! Aside from his name, he has had a Ramsey Kearney like footnote notoriety with this gem:

    • LOL: Bubba
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    Thanks for the very interesting post, and for reminding us of what might be the apotheosis of Hee-Haw.

    If anyone ever tries to claim that it's not possible for cornball syncopation to exist, show them this video.
  62. @inertial

    Polish model Paulina Porizkova
     
    Reminded me of this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/joyannreid/status/888418586473136128

    The Joyless Negro has to go back. Reparations $ will pay repatriation.

  63. Anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Last Real Calvinist
    I've can't really argue with that.

    Peak Paulina was very, very, very very very good-looking.

    You know, I might not have believed in “super-models” in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I’d never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7’8 walked in the door and you were like, “Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7’8 before and I didn’t know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was.”

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars–I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren’t actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The one time I walked past Tom Hanks was about 18 years ago at the L.A. auto show, which is a very mass market, extremely crowded event. He had a baseball cap pulled down low over his eyes and was radiating a general vibe of not being interesting to look at, which he was adept at doing. People would walk right past him, then react after he was past. It's hard to describe, but he was doing it. It's kind of the opposite of Susan Strasberg's story of walking anonymously down the street with Marilyn Monroe and Marilyn tells her "watch this" and transforms herself on the spot into Marilyn Monroe and causes a sensation.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Her teenage daughter looks just like her. Saw her in a full page add in the FT’s How To Spend It.
    , @The Last Real Calvinist

    You know, I might not have believed in “super-models” in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I’d never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7’8 walked in the door and you were like, “Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7’8 before and I didn’t know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was.”

     

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I'd admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful -- absolutely mesmerizing.

    Of course, tastes, vary, but people who repeat (and pretend to believe) the canard 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' need to come face to face with someone who possesses that degree of almost unearthly comeliness. There's no arguing it doesn't exist when you've seen it.

    , @Redneck farmer
    Cindy Crawford is one of those women (I had a high school classmate the same way) who, after she had kids, needed to add some weight back. Those are super genes.
    , @slumber_j
    A very funny friend of mine got to know Cindy Crawford pretty well during his I think nine-year undergraduate career at Northwestern.

    One night a few years after college he was drinking with a mutual friend of theirs when Crawford's face came on the TV. My friend's friend stared at Crawford for a few seconds, then took another swig and proclaimed: "Here's the thing. She will never be able to say she didn't know us."
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    It’s also very true what they say about the camera adding ten pounds. You don’t get a sense of how truly thin these models and actresses are until you see them in person. I had a similar experience many years ago, when I was standing in line at Chipotle behind Jen Carfagno, who at the time was easily the hottest anchorwoman at The Weather Channel. Way hotter in person than on camera.
    , @William Badwhite

    You know, I might not have believed in “super-models” in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.
     
    I don't know if she counts as a super-model, but about 20 years ago I gave a ride to Linda Carter (her car had broken down on the side of a fairly busy DC area road). She was stunning, even standing there on the side of a road in 90+ degree heat and humidity. She'll be beautiful when she's 75.

    On top of that, she was very pleasant and had a good sense of humor. Robert Altman hit the jackpot.
    , @JMcG
    I remember seeing Molly Ringwald in NYC in the mid 80’s. She was absolutely luminous. Strangely so. On the other hand, I also saw Wallace Shawn around the same time. Not luminous at all.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    I saw Steve Van Zandt at the Minetta Tavern (owned by the same guy who owns Balthazar) in Manhattan a year or two after the Sopranos went off the air. No one bothered him.
    , @foulkes
    Once I was in the Roppongi district of Tokyo. This is where e Westerners hang out.
    I was walking down the street and maybe 30 feet ahead I saw and felt an aura of a beautiful woman coming my way. This stunning blonde with perfect features walked past my friend and me. My female friend muttered that she must be a model.

    Damn right she was. That was the most beautiful woman I have ever seen She was only about 5'5" so she couldn't model in the West so had to go to Japan
    , @PiltdownMan
    I had basically the same experience circa 1982, when I was having brunch at an Upper East Side diner with PiltdownBrother1, and he said "look! There's Cheryl Tiegs!" as she walked by the window of the restaurant. Then she came in and sat down, with a young child, at a table next to us. It took the greatest effort not to gawk, and continue with the meal.

    As you say, it is impossible to conceive of that kind of beauty in one's mind's eye, until you see it in real life. These people really are one in a hundred million or more.

  64. He sang like a man, not with the tiresome male falsetto so popular in the 70s. So did Eddie Money, for that matter.

    • Agree: bruce county
  65. @EK
    Czech, not Polish.

    If you want to ruin a Czech’s day tell them that they are from Eastern Europe.

    • Replies: @black sea
    I once told a Czech banker who had lived in various European cities that she was a gypsy, i.e. she had moved around a lot.

    She informed me rather evenly that this was the worst thing that you could call a Czech person.

  66. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Eddie Money... came from a clan of New York cops and had briefly been a cop himself.
     
    Boy George came from a clan of Irish boxers, and was briefly one himself:


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jan/16/boy-george-sentenced-handcuffing-male-escort


    You’ll note from his age that Ocasek didn’t hit it big until his mid-30s...
     
    Others in that position were Sting, Ian Hunter, Debbie Harry, Cindy Lauper, Sheryl Crow, Pat Benatar, and, in a way, Bruce Springsteen. He had an early career as a cult figure, but had a four-year break due to contractual problems before hitting the big time. I was one of his earliest fans, and one of his earliest ex-fans.

    No one else I knew recognized Manfred Mann's "douche" cover as Springsteen.

    Deb was on her second go-around, having been with a trippy baroque folk rock group put out by Artie Kornfeld of Woodstock fame, called Wind in the Willows, circa 1968/69. They sounded like a cross between the Mamas and the Papas and It’s A Beautiful Day, with a trifle Jefferson Airplane thrown in there. They really were pretty good, but they came out about a year too late, and their second album never got released. Supposedly the masters are lost, but rumor has it Peter Leeds (who was involved with Blondie, later, early on, and who D and Chris hate, hate, hate, he did fuck them over) has it stashed somewhere.

    D does not like to talk about this , I’ve brought it up and it was clear she was upset about something and I dropped the matter. I’ve also talked to (now Dr.) Wayne Kirby (currently a professor at UNC Asheville) about it and he seemed to not want to revisit the matter either.

    In about two weeks , Debbie’s autobiography (also in a sense her second go around, after the largely autobiographical Making Tracks) will be released. Steve, you know, it would be a good idea really for you to review this book.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    I'd recommend to anyone interested in D. Harry gossip etc. from back in the day 20th Century Boy: Notebooks of the Seventies by my acquaintance Duncan Hannah. Really fun light reading from a guy who knew pretty much everyone in NYC when he was a (very) young man.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    In about two weeks , Debbie’s autobiography (also in a sense her second go around, after the largely autobiographical Making Tracks) will be released. Steve, you know, it would be a good idea really for you to review this book.
     
    Debbie was adopted and grew up in New Jersey. I was told her parents retired to and ran a shop in Cooperstown, N.Y., where my stepfather worked for many years, and where my mother briefly ran a store, too, and claimed to have met them at the time. It would be fun to verify this. Mel Gibson's last US address before his family emigrated is a short drive away.
  67. this music biz veteran’s correct anticipation of what Kids These Days would be into after the long reign of the Blues: more linear guitar-riffing with nerdier references.

    Damn you Ocasek and Kids These Days!

  68. I was never a big fan of the Cars or Eddie Money, but given that they each had one really great song – Drive and Baby Hold on to Me, well,…………….I guess I am a big fan of them.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Cars or Eddie Money, but given that they each had one really great song
     
    You are deeply discounting the oeuvre of each of them. I can easily name at least 5 great songs by each without trying very hard.

    The Cars, much like Talking Heads, leveraged the popularity of MTV by producing memorable videos for the singles off of Heartbeat City. Ironically they didn't do shit after that.
    , @Autochthon
    You are no daisy, Sir. You didn't even single out Money's best – a veritable master-course in perfectly crafted anthemic rock production and performance.

    Money's idea to make what he deemed a mediocre song written by someone else into a smash by involving just the right collaborator is among great moments in musical insight, up there with the keyboard riff Prince wrote over "Stand Back" for Stevie Nicks (in about five minutes, apparently) or the Pet Shop Boys' convincing Dusty Springfield she was the only one who could possibly sing "What Have I Done to Deserve This?" with them.

    “I was scraping mashed potatoes off a big china platter when Eddie Money called,” Ronnie Spector wrote in her memoir. It was 1986, and he was calling to ask her to perform with him on a new song that his label had given him to record, called “Take Me Home Tonight,” which he didn’t much like. The only good thing, from Money’s perspective, as he later told a reporter... was that the song had a line from the Ronettes’ 1963 smash hit “Be My Baby” in the chorus, which gave him the idea that it’d be good to get Spector ... into the studio to reprise it. At the time, Spector was living in New York with her second husband and two young children, in semi-retirement. It had been twenty years since the Ronettes broke up, and more than a decade since Spector had fled the house she shared with her first husband, Phil Spector, the man who had helped build, and then derail, her career. In her memoir, Spector recalls Money asking her, “What are you doing these days.” She responded, “The dishes. . . . When can we get started?”
     
    https://youtu.be/JVj61ZX_8Cs
  69. @Bugg
    Saw the Cars in the late 1970s or early 1980s at Madison Square Garden. Simply the worst live act I can recall.Indifferent to the crowd, ran through their hits in workmanlike fashion, and didn't play but 80 minutes during times when nobody cared about stage union OT. So bands usually played 2 hours even if they didn't have that much material(and the Cars did not). Perhaps getting to the big time late in life made them jaded, but they played like they wanted to get off stage as soon as possible. May be to get with said Eastern Euro supermodels forthwith? RIP.

    I can understand why you felt cheated. They’re entertainers, and if they are performing live, they should entertain.

    Still, I’ve never much liked rock concert performances. Pop music is such a synthetic creation that a lot of the sound depends on how it is produced in the studio. An orchestra can sound as good live as on a recording, but a rock group seldom so.

    • Replies: @Charon
    Orchestras actually sound better live.

    Rock groups, not so much.
    , @bomag

    Pop music is such a synthetic creation...
     
    This.

    Ironic that it has its roots in folk music, which could be sung by anyone around a campfire a cappella/with simple instruments.
    , @ken
    If they make the performance sound like the album then what's the point. Petty was rather successful at changing the whole nature of a song and grab the crowd, but then the next day you might ask why did I howl "EAH""OHH" for two hours. If they never had to perform live the Replacements might still be putting out records/sober/alive/talking to each other. From the other side there are also many groups that play live really well, but never last long because their songs aren't radio friendly.
    , @Simply Simon
    I was a member of a US Army band in 1947-48, and most, if not all of us band members were big Stan Kenton fans. Many of his hit were on 78RPM Capitol Records. His music was called Progressive Jazz and he produced what to some people seemed weird arrangements. He did have capable musicians and an attractive female vocalist named June Christie. One concert I well remember was at the Mosque in Richmond Virginia, a very ornate theater indeed. I believe it still functions as a theater.
  70. @anonymous
    Chateau Heartiste ran polls and prime Porzikova was the only person rated a perfect 10.


    https://iv1.lisimg.com/image/1985743/323full-paulina-porizkova.jpg

    I’d wholeheartedly agree. In her day, Paulina was absolutely stunning, and seemed to have kept most of her looks the last time I remember seeing her as a 40-something assassin in a relatively low-budget flick way 15 or so years back.

  71. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    I don't know, Mick Jagger is one ugly dude. Be interesting to rank ugliest rock singers.

    Mick was famous for embodying the new term androgyny. He had those lips and a narrow,slim physique. I don’t think he was ugly a’tall. A bit odd,maybe,but to women he was very goodlooking.

  72. @Abe

    He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.
     
    Billy *COUGH* Joel

    Billy turned into some kind of gnome as he aged.

  73. The Rentals’ 1995 hit “Friends with P” is rumored to be about Paulina, presumably because Ric Ocasek produced Weezer’s debut Blue Album, and they may have all become friends:

  74. @bored identity
    Meanwile,

    “Corn Pop was a bad dude. And he ran a bunch of bad boys...” :

    https://youtu.be/up9diHYgZ0g


    There goes S.Carolina primary down the drain.

    The Corn Pop story was hilarious. I believe every word! If only our black thugs of today were more like Corn Pop.

  75. For years Ocasek’s listed year of birth was 1949. When the debut album hit stores in 1978 he could claim to still be in his twenties.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    The fact that he lied about his age shows you the value that rock once placed on youth ("never trust anyone over 30"). Rock was music by youth and for youth. Now everyone has aged and you have senior citizen rockers singing for senior citizen fans and the "never trust anyone over 30" bit is "no longer operative".
  76. @Anonymous
    Two of the original five Cars are gone:
    Ric Ocasek – lead and backing vocals, rhythm guitar, keyboards (1976-1988, 2010-2011, 2018, died 2019)
    Elliot Easton – lead guitar, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018)
    Benjamin Orr – bass, backing and lead vocals (1976–1988; died 2000)
    David Robinson – drums, percussion, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018)
    Greg Hawkes – keyboards, guitars, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018), saxophone (1976-1979), bass (2010-2011)



    The Cars frontman Ric Ocasek found dead in Manhattan townhouse


    By Larry Celona and Jackie Salo

    September 15, 2019 | 8:10pm

    The Cars frontman Ric Ocasek found dead in Manhattan townhouse


    Ric Ocasek, the lead singer of iconic new wave rock band The Cars, was found dead in his Manhattan apartment on Sunday, law enforcement sources told The Post. He was 75 years old.

    Ocasek was discovered unconscious and unresponsive at around 4:14 p.m. inside his Gramercy Park pad by his estranged wife, Paulina Porizkova, sources said.

    He appeared to have died from natural causes, sources added.

    Ocasek and his seminal new wave band The Cars shot to fame with their self-titled hit album in the 1978, which included hits such as “My Best Friend’s Girl” and “Just What I Needed.”

    The singer reflected on his years in the band when he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame last year.

    “It’s certainly a wonderful feeling to be accepted by peers and you see the people that are in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, who gets inducted, it’s a positive feeling that you get,” Ocasek said in an interview with Rolling Stone.

    From 1978 to 1987, the band churned out six records — “five of which are good-to-great,” said Erik Adams, an AV Club music critic, in a 2018 article.

    “And then there are The Cars, the type of band that put out a perfect debut record, and then had the audacity to not pack it in after that,” the critic wrote.

    In 1984, the band received another notable accolade, winning MTV’s “Video of the Year” award for its hit song off its 5th album, “You Might Think.”

    After a long hiatus, the band reunited in 2011 and released an album called “Move Like This.” It was the band’s first, and only, album without late- bassist Benjamin Orr, who died in 2000.

    Ocasek had recently placed the home where he was found on the market after he and Porizkova announced their split in May 2018.

    The pair — who shared two children together — had been together for 28 years when they separated.
     
    https://pagesix.com/2019/09/15/the-cars-frontman-ric-ocasek-found-dead-in-manhattan-townhouse/

    Two of the original (Tom Petty) Heartbreakers are dead also. How many seventies/ eighties bands have all their original members still living?

    ZZ Top.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    Stray Cats
  77. The nights were already getting strange before Ocasek died.

  78. @Altai
    I discovered a sister term to 'caucasity', 'white-ality'.

    The last time I seriously intended to skedaddle was in March 2014, when I went to New York for a working vacation. I reconnected with friends and family and did several readings. Hanging with folk I’ve known all my life and luxuriating in the warm embrace of an environment where I wasn’t incongruous filled me with a renewed sense of belonging. And, though my former hometown was gentrified to within an inch of being indistinguishable, it burst at the seams with vitality (though a bit too much “white-ality”). Bistros and bookstores had replaced barbershops and bodegas, and that industrious, chichi, upwardly mobile part of me saw plenty of opportunities to prosper. That had cinched it for me. I was putting together an exit strategy and a business plan on the plane back to Japan.
     
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2018/12/19/our-lives/2018-year-japan-began-listen/#.XX7GVWYo9PY

    This guys whole column series 'Black Eye' is amazing fodder. There is so much but I'll limit to just one other excerpt.

    I expected Obama’s victory over there to result in changing attitudes over here. I expected Obama’s coup to be the mother lode of good vibrations that would reverberate wherever black people dwell. I knew it would inform black youth that their potential is unlimited, and that’s a beautiful thing, but was it powerful enough to have an impact on the Japanese assessment of “blackness” and to inspire some here to critically rethink the foul and/or ignorant notions that remain pervasive? Sad to report, I perceived not a smidgen of change. It’s like black excellence is viewed as an exception to the natural state of blackness.
     

    Given how few blacks there are in Japan there is something extremely tedious about planting oneself on there and making a whole career off of perceived local reactions to oneself.

    • Replies: @bomag
    Yes.

    He calls Japanese racist and is proud of the attention it brings him.

    His disdain for Japan comes through, at one point saying that moving back to NY was a "master plan I was hatching to break out of this joint and re-enter reality." Reminds, again, that today's immigrant doesn't want to immerse and join another country, but show up and change it to suit his people.
    , @Altai
    My personal favourite is this gem.

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2018/05/20/our-lives/black-people-dangerous-japan/#.XX7FAmYo9PY

    I’d love to say these YouTubers are completely off their rockers with this diatribe, but the truth is, their concerns are not entirely unfounded. You see, I know for a fact, I am definitely a danger to Japan!

    The way I see it, the only way Japan could have avoided the danger that myself and like-minded people represent — the perils that invariably accompany transition — is if they had kept this island nation isolated. Maybe pull a Trump card and build a wall. But that would not have been in the country’s best interest. Nor is behaving as if the nation is in fact isolated, homogenous, or even capable of stemming the tide of foreign influence on the culture and customs here.

    Those days are over. The people here, both Japanese and foreign, who embrace this truth will position themselves to succeed in the years to come. Those that don’t, well, they will likely erect or support the erection of obstacles to progress, or spew hate on video, as backward thinkers everywhere tend to do.

    Meanwhile, the world is going to keep coming here, some with embossed invitations due to Japanese necessity, some with adventurous sensibilities and disposable cash, some seeking opportunities to prosper, and some running for their lives from desperate situations seeking refuge.
     
    Does he understand that that's a threat and pure spite? Japan doesn't belong to the Japanese and they have no right to expect not to be ethnically displaced just because 'globalisation'. The question I keep asking 'why?' never comes up. The only people who want Japan to stop being Japan are foreign ingrates in Japan.
  79. @Anonymous
    Hi Steve! I’m pretty sure that not Paulina Porizkova in the video. For one thing, Paulina doesn’t have a turned-up nose.

    She was in the video version of another Cars song “Drive” and she was from Czechoslovakia ( Now Czech Republic ) her parents were political dissidents who fled to Sweden which is where she grew up.

  80. @Dave Pinsen
    https://twitter.com/johncardillo/status/1172584089251143681?s=21

    Bobby Sherman (still kicking)

    From best-selling music artist to LA EMT

  81. @Wilkey
    The story I heard re: why so many rock stars wind up with supermodels is that they'd get directors to cast them in their music videos. Ocasek met Porizkova during filming of the music video for "Drive." He was married and 21 years her senior. He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.
  82. @The Last Real Calvinist
    I've can't really argue with that.

    Peak Paulina was very, very, very very very good-looking.

    No you can’t, but want to know something incredible? Paulina Porizkova and Elle Macpherson ( aka The Body ) were roommates in NYC in the early 1980’s. Between them they made 5 consecutive SI swimsuit covers.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Paulina Porizkova and Elle Macpherson ( aka The Body ) were roommates in NYC in the early 1980’s.

     

    I had no idea. That seems to transgress some kind of boundary in the time-space matrix.
  83. @The Last Real Calvinist
    A music star's good looks, or lack thereof, is one theme in 'The Commitments', a movie I'm very fond of.

    The lead singer of the eponymous group is a 17-year-old who's described as having a voice from God (he really does; it's incredible). As an adolescent guy who's becoming a star, he expects girls to fall at his feet, but the problem is that he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook. He's got none of that gamine rock star look going for him. Instead, he's all beefy and sweaty, and the girls in the band think he looks like a pig.

    https://tageswoche.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/imagescms-image-004725278-980x653.jpg

    the problem is that he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook. He’s got none of that gamine rock star look going for him. Instead, he’s all beefy and sweaty, and the girls in the band think he looks like a pig.

    True, true. Nevertheless, a friend of mine at university claimed he once picked up a girl by his looks reminding her of this singer whatever his name is. He did look a bit like him.

  84. @Unladen Swallow
    No you can't, but want to know something incredible? Paulina Porizkova and Elle Macpherson ( aka The Body ) were roommates in NYC in the early 1980's. Between them they made 5 consecutive SI swimsuit covers.

    Paulina Porizkova and Elle Macpherson ( aka The Body ) were roommates in NYC in the early 1980’s.

    I had no idea. That seems to transgress some kind of boundary in the time-space matrix.

    • Replies: @Charon
    Can you imagine having been their next-door neighbor, or even living down the hall? Among several other things, you'd learn not to bother telling people about it years later, because absolutely no one would believe you.
  85. A lot of the lady voices of the 1970s have been silenced. Sandy Denny. Dusty Springfield. Laura Nyro. Nico. Mariska Veres. Nicolette Larson. Kasey Cisyk (you know her numbers; look up the name).

    Karen Carpenter. Natalie Cole. Donna Summer.

    I am surprised to learn that Maria Muldaur and Vikki Carr are still with us. They came into the world as Maria Grazia Rosa Domenica D’Amato and Florencia Bisenta de Casillas-Martinez Cardona. At Greenwich Village and El Paso, respectively.

    Oh, and Concetta Rosa Maria Franconero, a.k.a Connie Francis, in Newark. But she’s ’60s, not ’70s, when she was mattressed and violated at a HoJo’s.

  86. Vikki Carr, along with Edith “Eydie Gorme” Gormezano, were two singers that didn’t quite bridge the generation gap but were phenomenal pop singers and made some really great records.

  87. Tangentially on-topic to the tangential topic of comely Slavs:

    Lots of intriguing maps at Jakub Marian’s site:

    Immigration in Europe: Map of the percentages and countries of origin of immigrants

    28 Maps That Will Completely Change The Way You View Europe

    • Replies: @Stebbing Heuer
    It's the Sailer Rule modified for European countries:

    'Invade X, invite X'.
    , @J.Ross
    I have heard quibbles about Marian's accuracy: his maps are so perfectly conversation-worthy that I'd be careful about defending them.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    If Norwegians invaded Poland, it was over a thousand years ago. Two thousand in the case of Italy and Romania!
  88. According to ethnicelebs.com, Ric Ocasek’s ethnicity was Czech
    so he and Porizkova probably found comfort in their common tribal identity.
    His birth name was Otcasek. The -ek ending is definitely Slavonic.

    Steve, if you’re thinking of Polish models, one example would be Joanna
    Krupa (born in Poland). No relation to the great drummer Gene
    Krupa (1909-73).

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Yes, Pavlina was Czech. Polish women are often attractive but not as attractive as Czechs, who, per capita, must produce the most stunning women in the world.
  89. @Hapalong Cassidy
    I remember Heartiste shared a little ditty on how Ric and Paulina got together. She was cast in the video for “Drive”, and there is a scene in that video where Ric and Paulina are portraying a couple that is breaking up, and there is a lot of yelling from Ric and a lot of crying from Paulina. Apparently acting out that scene caused the two to form quite an emotional bond.

    Pro-tip for ugly men seeking to date/marry a supermodel:

    Shout at her until she breaks down and cries.

    Recommended phrase: ‘You know you can’t go on thinking nothing’s wrong, [insert name of bombshell here]. Who’s going to drive you home? WHO’S GOING TO DRIVE YOU HOME??’

  90. @Kibernetika
    Damn, for anyone who attended university near Boston in the mid- to-late seventies this news sucks especially :(

    https://youtu.be/UvI1RhNvQro

    Nice! Very nice! Live and rawish Cars. Downloaded to me computer via this mp3 converter >>>>> https://freegrabapp.com/product/free-youtube-to-mp3-converter/

  91. @Reg Cæsar
    Tangentially on-topic to the tangential topic of comely Slavs:


    https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/immigrants-europe-country-of-origin.jpg


    Lots of intriguing maps at Jakub Marian's site:


    Immigration in Europe: Map of the percentages and countries of origin of immigrants

    28 Maps That Will Completely Change The Way You View Europe

    It’s the Sailer Rule modified for European countries:

    ‘Invade X, invite X’.

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
  92. @inertial

    Polish model Paulina Porizkova
     
    Reminded me of this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/joyannreid/status/888418586473136128

    Slovakia was part of Czechoslovakia, not Yugoslavia.

    • Agree: ben tillman
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
     
    , @Jack D
    And Yugoslavia was not Soviet - it was Communist but not Russian occupied.

    And Joy Reid is an idiot.
  93. @Steve Sailer
    Bowie eventually aged into handsomeness, but the classic rock star look tended to be symmetrical but unusual: too delicate or too alien or too gaunt or too something to be movie star handsome: e.g., Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith. Johnny Depp is a rare movie star who also looks like a rock star. Maybe Val Kilmer too.

    Generally, square-jawed Tom Cruise handsomeness isn't what rock stars have. Rock stars typically have high cheekbones and small jaws.

    In general, rock stars tend to be heterosexuals with some effeminate traits, such as dancing ability and loving the crowd's adoration. E.g., Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn't really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That's his dad's character he's playing. Bruce admits he's more of a delicate artsy type.

    John Lennon disparaged Mick’s “faggy” dancing as well as his ripping off the Beatles.

    That could come off as prickly jealousy but nobody can say it wasn’t true. So, a typical Lennon statement.

    John literally wrote the Stones’ first hit and they really did copy the Beatles and Mick’s dancing really was well, whatever, but John certainly wasn’t wrong-wrong.

  94. @Anon 2
    According to ethnicelebs.com, Ric Ocasek’s ethnicity was Czech
    so he and Porizkova probably found comfort in their common tribal identity.
    His birth name was Otcasek. The -ek ending is definitely Slavonic.

    Steve, if you’re thinking of Polish models, one example would be Joanna
    Krupa (born in Poland). No relation to the great drummer Gene
    Krupa (1909-73).

    Yes, Pavlina was Czech. Polish women are often attractive but not as attractive as Czechs, who, per capita, must produce the most stunning women in the world.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Please let fourth comment through.
    Jest Podling Iustitia. PODLING IUSTITIA!
    Peter, what the hell did the Polish do to you, anyway?
    Poles and Czechs are almost the same people and when Derrida joked that they spoke the same language, but agreed to pretend to distinction, he wasn't called an idiot. They are very similar languages.
    Anyone who has seen the Czech movie Closely Watched Trains or heard about Polish Catholicism might be able to provide an alternate explanation to your over-broad talent evaluation. Czechs embraced porn and Western media values early and hard, Poles are really really Catholic, which precludes that.
    There's a ton of gorgeous women in Kazakhstan and we're not seeing them sharing a website with Veronika Zemanova any time soon, for reasons that have nothing to do with talent.
    , @Anon 2
    Re: Czechs produce the most stunning women in the world

    Ukrainians would disagree with you. I’ve never seen as many
    symmetric faces as among the Ukrainian girls. Plus, unlike
    their male counterparts, they smile a lot which adds to their
    attractiveness. Another reason why American women, with
    their resting bitch faces, are no longer attractive. Make America
    Beautiful Again - bring back the American women from the
    1950s and ‘60s, and their beautiful smiles. Even many Manson
    girls were reasonably attractive, e.g., Leslie van Houten.

  95. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    The one time I walked past Tom Hanks was about 18 years ago at the L.A. auto show, which is a very mass market, extremely crowded event. He had a baseball cap pulled down low over his eyes and was radiating a general vibe of not being interesting to look at, which he was adept at doing. People would walk right past him, then react after he was past. It’s hard to describe, but he was doing it. It’s kind of the opposite of Susan Strasberg’s story of walking anonymously down the street with Marilyn Monroe and Marilyn tells her “watch this” and transforms herself on the spot into Marilyn Monroe and causes a sensation.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    My general experience in West LA was that nobody should feel sorry for celebrities because nobody bothered them where I normally saw them (high-end restaurants).

    So I assume the paparazzi stuff is planned with their PR departments to get them in the news.

    Sure, sometimes I'd see Al Pacino at Starbucks but most of the time I'd be seeing Brad Pitt at Toscana. Nobody who was a Toscana patron would dare bother the celebrities who dined there. I sat next to Rob Reiner and Luke Wilson and the female star (Kate Hudson?) when they had wrapped some movie that bombed hard. Nobody said nothin'.

    The Rock liked Dan Tanas and he can put away serious amounts of food.

    Larry David's favorite restaurant was Giorgio baldi. Good, if overpriced (who cares? We're all millionaires, right? Get the langoustine) . Everyone noticed him but nobody bothered him.

    Julie Andrews must have lived in Brentwood because I saw her consistently.

    Jan Michael Vincent was homeless in Santa Monica.

    Literally the only person I saw get asked for an autograph at a decent restaurant was Reba McIntyre of all people.

    But I will give credit to the in-n-out stars. because that place is a zoo and you realized they were only doing it for their kids sake.

    Surprises: when I saw David hasselhoff at spago he looked GOOD. easy to make fun of from a distance but in real life he looked like he should be famous. Arnold...is not 6'2. Jamie Lee Curtis would go to indie movies buying her own ticket and popcorn and talk to the employees.
    , @Charles Pewitt
    The best pictures of Marilyn Monroe I have seen are the ones where she is lifting weights or shooting an arrow with a bow.

    She looked good in those pool pictures too, but she's trying to be an extra scoop of Marilyn in those photos and she's nude. The picture of her in that translucent dress ain't too shabby.

    Tom Hanks is a baby boomer actor who gets on my nerves the older I get. Jeff Bridges is a baby boomer actor who doesn't irritate me too much.

    Hanks was OKAY in Gump!

    The first time I saw Trump was at a small political event in April of 2015 before he really jumped in the polls. Trump is the size of a retired linebacker and he has a good presence. Trump kept repeating things twice, like he was trying out lines for a movie or political slogans.

    I saw a fine looking lady in a nice shiny dress at the Trump event, and she caught everybody's eye. When Trump finished up his pitch the good looking lady put a sash on -- it turned out she was a past beauty pageant winner or the current beauty pageant winner of something and she eagerly rushed over to Trump to say hello. Trump owning the rights to that beauty pageant and Trump having Sinclair and the tabloids on his side helped tremendously -- of course that TV show helped too!

    Who could forget all the times Trump's pals in the tabloids had Hillary Clinton looking drunk or worse in big pictures at the checkout line magazine racks?
  96. @R.G. Camara
    The great line about Mick Jagger I heard was that "Mick Jagger looks like Don Knotts." It has always stuck with me.

    There have been vague attempts by some to paint the always-on-the-prowl Jagger as "handsome" or "pretty" but it's all just old arty camera shots and his publicists working hard for him.

    The great line about Mick Jagger I heard was that “Mick Jagger looks like Don Knotts.

    I believe I remember seeing one of those biography programs that said Knotts was actually quite the ladies man back in the 60s post ‘Mayberry.’

    • Replies: @Anon
    Recently, someone (Conan?) on a podcast was telling a 2nd hand story about how Knotts bedded a number of the young twenty-somethings that appeared on Three's Company despite being 30+ years their senior and married.
  97. @Hapalong Cassidy
    I remember Heartiste shared a little ditty on how Ric and Paulina got together. She was cast in the video for “Drive”, and there is a scene in that video where Ric and Paulina are portraying a couple that is breaking up, and there is a lot of yelling from Ric and a lot of crying from Paulina. Apparently acting out that scene caused the two to form quite an emotional bond.

    Apparently acting out that scene caused the two to form quite an emotional bond.

    I took a drama class taught by one of the Universities that had offerings on base, and the prof teamed me up for that kind of scene with a girl who turned out to be the base commander’s college-aged daughter. This is indeed powerful, but dangerous stuff.

  98. Ric went against the grain. Karen Berg, A & R at Electra, got the Cars signed based on hearing a crummy lo fi cassette and recognizing obvious hit potential. He didn’t worry about a fancy demo, knowing that the tunes would stand. He also said he chose his guitars based on how they looked. Muso heresy, for the time.
    The Cars didn’t “jam” or even do improvised solos, but that mechanical sound was a cool departure from 60’s-70’s blues-rock overdose.
    And Ric was of the Pill we call Red: “They call us a ‘beauty and the beast’ couple” he said about his wife. “But, I don’t think she looks that bad”.

    • Replies: @donvonburg
    The sound and the appearance of electric guitars in terms of color, outline, shape, etc. are in no way related. And to evaluate a guitar for playability you need to be pretty close.

    Certain design features like the type and placement of pickups, can give a clue, but humbuckers can have coil splits or taps.

    Guitar players all DO play certain guitars for looks, but not as the uninitiated would see it. Fans have certain expectations of what a certain kind of guitar does or should be used for and that's what many, maybe most, players will select.

    For example, people associate Telecasters with a certain school of virtuosity because Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton, etc. were "masters of the Telecaster". Working man Bruce Springsteen, riffmaster Keith Richards, and rock chick extraordinaire Chrissie Hynde all play Teles so that's what someone wanting to convey that image will pick even though in the studio they might have used a 335 Gibson, a Strat or a PRS on the record. Same is true with Les Pauls, or, well, anything.

    With acoustic guitars form follows function more, but still people pick them for looks and association more than anything else. Martins, in particular, are the most overrated guitars out there in my experience. Most made between the early seventies and early 2000s are mediocre guitars and they all tend to need structural work-neck resets, repaired top cracks from pickguard shrinkage, fingerboard replacements or back shaving-as time goes on. A high end ¥amaha or Takamine is usually a better sounding guitar that will need less work.

    The two companies that can really manufacture guitars that consistently play well out of the box and hold up are Taylor and PRS. Gibson, Fender, Martin, and Rickenbacker are all legacy messes with no consistency and widely varying quality. Ricks are somewhat consistent, but they are also beset with issues that make them a niche product-either you love them or you hate them.(I hate them.) Gibson is the worst-they have made some good guitars and a lot of turds, some of which there is no economic fix for, the work would exceed the value of the instrument. Fenders due to their modular construction you usually can get into shape with skilled neck and pocket work. Martins are all fixable, but you know you'll have to do it again in twenty years, and there are a lot of judgment calls to be made. Bluegrassers who string them with telephone cables and have the braces shaved for that "cannon" sound are the bane of any repairman. I hate bluegrassers from an instrument standpoint, there is no pleasing them because they want something that was a myth from the beginning.

    From that standpoint then Ocasek was completely rational.
  99. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    Her teenage daughter looks just like her. Saw her in a full page add in the FT’s How To Spend It.

    • Replies: @anonymous2space
    And Cindy was going to be an engineering major at Northwestern.


    And she seems emotionally stable (I don't remember any crazy scandals? And she's been famous about as long as I've been alive).



    So I guess she's just better than me.
    , @J.Ross
    I heard FT was in trouble but I had not realized ...
  100. Anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    The one time I walked past Tom Hanks was about 18 years ago at the L.A. auto show, which is a very mass market, extremely crowded event. He had a baseball cap pulled down low over his eyes and was radiating a general vibe of not being interesting to look at, which he was adept at doing. People would walk right past him, then react after he was past. It's hard to describe, but he was doing it. It's kind of the opposite of Susan Strasberg's story of walking anonymously down the street with Marilyn Monroe and Marilyn tells her "watch this" and transforms herself on the spot into Marilyn Monroe and causes a sensation.

    My general experience in West LA was that nobody should feel sorry for celebrities because nobody bothered them where I normally saw them (high-end restaurants).

    So I assume the paparazzi stuff is planned with their PR departments to get them in the news.

    Sure, sometimes I’d see Al Pacino at Starbucks but most of the time I’d be seeing Brad Pitt at Toscana. Nobody who was a Toscana patron would dare bother the celebrities who dined there. I sat next to Rob Reiner and Luke Wilson and the female star (Kate Hudson?) when they had wrapped some movie that bombed hard. Nobody said nothin’.

    The Rock liked Dan Tanas and he can put away serious amounts of food.

    Larry David’s favorite restaurant was Giorgio baldi. Good, if overpriced (who cares? We’re all millionaires, right? Get the langoustine) . Everyone noticed him but nobody bothered him.

    Julie Andrews must have lived in Brentwood because I saw her consistently.

    Jan Michael Vincent was homeless in Santa Monica.

    Literally the only person I saw get asked for an autograph at a decent restaurant was Reba McIntyre of all people.

    But I will give credit to the in-n-out stars. because that place is a zoo and you realized they were only doing it for their kids sake.

    Surprises: when I saw David hasselhoff at spago he looked GOOD. easy to make fun of from a distance but in real life he looked like he should be famous. Arnold…is not 6’2. Jamie Lee Curtis would go to indie movies buying her own ticket and popcorn and talk to the employees.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    I once saw Arnold Schwarzenegger doing a spot with the guys from one of those NFL shows---that would be Howie Long and Cris Collinsworth and whoever the hell the other two were---and he looked like a midget. Even the lanky Collinsworth had broader shoulders and thinker limbs than Arnold, and Howie positively dominated him.

    Howie Long is listed at 6'5", but I don't believe it. If you watch him and Kevin Costner together in 3000 Miles to Graceland, they are just about the same height and Kevin Costner is a generous 6'3''.

    So if Howie Long is 6'4" at most, then Arnie is stretching his last vertebrae to make it to 6'0" based on the evidence I've seen.

    Now ask me about the time I body-guarded Alice Cooper. It's a good story.
    , @Autochthon
    One cannot but wonder if the exception occurred because Reba McIntyre is such a nice and down-to-earth person, and her fanbase similarly just plain folks. Perhaps fans of hers are less intimidated about asking for an autograph (she's known to be a gracious lady) and more eager to get one (fans of country music are less jaded than average). Al Pacino may be affable and grandfatherly for all I know, but his public persona is the opposite (largely because of the tough-guy roles he's played), and his fanbase probably includes more hipsters who fancy themselves too cool for the room and unwilling to be impressed by a star in front of their friends....
  101. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    You know, I might not have believed in “super-models” in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I’d never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7’8 walked in the door and you were like, “Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7’8 before and I didn’t know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was.”

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I’d admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful — absolutely mesmerizing.

    Of course, tastes, vary, but people who repeat (and pretend to believe) the canard ‘beauty is in the eye of the beholder’ need to come face to face with someone who possesses that degree of almost unearthly comeliness. There’s no arguing it doesn’t exist when you’ve seen it.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I’d admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful — absolutely mesmerizing.
     
    This being the internet era, it would be nice if we could judge for ourselves the looks of this particular sloe-eyed beauty. Name, please (in English or otherwise, thanks to the miracle of cut and paste).
    , @nycer

    Of course, tastes, vary, but people who repeat (and pretend to believe) the canard ‘beauty is in the eye of the beholder’ need to come face to face with someone who possesses that degree of almost unearthly comeliness. There’s no arguing it doesn’t exist when you’ve seen it.
     
    When I lived in NYC, I had a job that entailed meeting and dealing with Ford models regularly, and what you say is absolutely true. Most people who talk about a "beautiful girl" have no idea what they're talking about.

    They're genetic freaks, and most are wretches, god bless 'em. Some know they're wretches leading ridiculous lives. Some don't. But most are.
    , @syonredux

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I’d admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful — absolutely mesmerizing.
     
    People tend to underestimate just how stunning the "beauty elite " (models, film stars, etc) really are. I've often theorized that it's a problem of context. Look at photos of Paulina Porizkova in a copy of the SI Swimsuit issue, and you're seeing her in the context of other stunning women. Sure, she might be more beautiful than the rest, but it's a matter of being a 9.9 vs a 9.5. Her beauty flattens out, as it were.But place her in a real world setting like the post office or the DMV, and the Everest-esque nature of her good looks becomes apparent.
    , @jb
    I once read about a study where they showed pictures of European women to European men and also to male South African Bushmen, and asked both groups to select the most attractive. They did the reverse as well, showing pictures of Bushman women to both groups of men. (Neither group was asked to compare European women with Bushman women).

    The result was agreement on all sides. Both groups picked out the same European women as most attractive, and both groups picked out the same Bushman women. This suggests that there is something intrinsic and universal about female beauty, and that it is not all in the eye of the beholder or socially constructed.

    , @Bill B.

    ...people who repeat (and pretend to believe) the canard ‘beauty is in the eye of the beholder’ need to come face to face with someone who possesses that degree of almost unearthly comeliness. There’s no arguing it doesn’t exist when you’ve seen it.
     
    Perhaps I've never seen the Everest peak of beauty then. My experience of seeing or (rarely) meeting highly-ranked models is to feel a mild sting of disappointment that the camera likes them more than the human eye does. I'm talking about mostly Asian models.

    I met Jane Seymour in the early 1980s (in Hong Kong) and she was stunning but I wouldn't go ga-ga over her. Perhaps it is just me; perhaps I find perfection off-putting and prefer something more approachable.

    For me a key test of attractiveness is the ability to draw the eye to the point where it takes a physical effort to look away. That can happen in unexpected places: a decade ago I took a cat to the local university veterinary clinic where no man in the room could take his eyes off one of the trainee vets who was technically merely pretty. But she had something.
  102. @inertial
    If you want to ruin a Czech's day tell them that they are from Eastern Europe.

    I once told a Czech banker who had lived in various European cities that she was a gypsy, i.e. she had moved around a lot.

    She informed me rather evenly that this was the worst thing that you could call a Czech person.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    People who think of Romani romantically are like those people who admire Red Indians, but experience postdates fantasy, and I am certain that Czechs are not the only European people who would be offended by the comparison.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    She informed me rather evenly that this was the worst thing that you could call a Czech person.
     
    The Finnish term for them-- and they have been in Finland for generations-- is mustalaista.

    -laista is the plural form of -lainen, the generic suffix for nationalities. Musta is black.

    The weirdest thing I ever saw in Scandinavia was an old, traditionally-dressed Gypsy matron, accompanied by a relative or two, walking down the aisle of a crowded Swedish train yelling "Tukholma? Tukholma?!" She wanted to know if they were headed to Stockholm.

    Almost any rudimentally educated Finn would know how to say Stockholm in Swedish, and say it that way in Sweden. (Quietly.) The city's Finnish name would be the butt of jokes in Sweden.

    A Gypsy wouldn't know, or more likely wouldn't care.

  103. @Anonymous
    Dick Dale was a very remarkable man who I got to know a little bit, but his influence was more second and third hand. Before Quentin Tarantino used Misirlou

    Written by Fred Wise, Milton Leeds, Bob Russell, and Nicholas Roubanis
    Performed by Dick Dale (as Dick Dale & His Del-Tones)
    Courtesy of Rhino Records
     
    in Pulp Fiction he was known only to a few guitar geeks and old guys who were Southern California surfers in the late fifties and early 60s.

    He'd been on the cover of Guitar Player in the early to mid 80s and there was a sort of surf revival associated with SoCal punk and new wave at along that time, but I was absolutely unable to find a single Dick Dale record in the Midwest for several years. I think the first modern album rerelease occurred at right about the time that Ben (brother of MTM Show Ed) Asner's Caper's Corner record store ceased operations. He had been well and truly swept under the carpet.

    His history was interesting. He knocked around Southern California surfing and tried his hand at acting. (He was one of the three Elvis imitator prospects shown in the casting scene in Let's Make Love, essentially an Elvis movie with Marilyn Monroe in the vehicle driving role, and her last color film to be finished.) He developed an especially loud and intense guitar style and his playing was so intense he melted picks and caused Fender guitar amplifiers to blow up, causing Fender to heavily ruggedize their stuff which made, in turn, hard rock possible. (He was friends with Leo Fender who regarded him as the official Fender torture tester.) Most especially, Fender had the JBL D-130-F speaker designed, the first truly Daleproof driver ever designed and today popular with (and consequently very expensive now to buy) both guitarists and the twiode twat extreme hi fi fans who use them for subwoofers.)

    He played left handed on a left handed guitar strung right handed but with extremely heavy strings, even for the day in which he played. (By contrast, Jimi Hendrix played left handed on a right handed guitar strung left handed.) Hendrix and, well, every other early 'heavy' guitarist credited him as an influence, but his actual music was mostly unknown outside California.

    Another interesting aside: there was at the time Dale was working, another guy named Dick Dale who was also making music-with Lawrence Welk of all people! Aside from his name, he has had a Ramsey Kearney like footnote notoriety with this gem:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8tdmaEhMHE&list=RDt8tdmaEhMHE

    Thanks for the very interesting post, and for reminding us of what might be the apotheosis of Hee-Haw.

    If anyone ever tries to claim that it’s not possible for cornball syncopation to exist, show them this video.

  104. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Sorry Steve, but a quick Google search says that the girl in the video was Susan Gallagher, likely a pretty American girl. Paulina was in the video Drive.

    Btw, I'm not a big Cars fan. I just noticed that the girl in this video didn't look much like Paulina whom I remember from my youth.

    Either way, Rick did very, very well for himself.

    “the video was Susan Gallagher, likely a pretty American girl.”

    I think I remember Ben Stein once writing that a Persian Jewish Princess would spend thousands of dollars in rhinoplasties to look like a shop girl from Wales.

    • Replies: @Bubba
    I think Ben Stein may have been referring to Jennifer Grey (Joel Grey’s daughter) because he wrote a column about how disappointed he was with her decision to change her appearance. Either way (before or after surgery) she is still smoking hot...

    https://img2.nickiswift.com/img/gallery/why-hollywood-wont-cast-jennifer-grey-anymore/who-replaced-jennifer-grey-with-this-other-jennifer-grey-1520620581.jpg
  105. Anon[751] • Disclaimer says:

    And Cindy Crawford’s husband might be a handsome billionaire married to Cindy Crawford but I had to teach him how to get into the restroom at In-N-Out. Due to all the bums it has a code lock on it but he was just standing by the door thinking it was occupied.

    So I got that going for me, which is nice.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    Isn't the Westwood In-N-Out right across the street from UCLA's campus? It seems like the authorities in Westwood would encourage the bums to move down the road to Santa Monica.
  106. Good times are now good memories and a big ‘Thank You’ is long overdue — their music was part of the soundtrack of my life, and the lives of many others too probably:

    Eddie Money –> Trinidad

    The Cars –> Just What I Needed

    Another sad death (suicide) some years ago: Brad Delp/Boston –> Feelin’ Satisfied

  107. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike
    Ocasek was certainly one of the ugliest men I've ever seen, but Roger Waters, Tom Petty and Alice Cooper are up there with him.

    BTW, the music of The Cars was terrible.

    PS - no love for Eddie Money?

    Ocasek was certainly one of the ugliest men I’ve ever seen, but Roger Waters, Tom Petty and Alice Cooper are up there with him.

    Waters was no looker but looked interesting. Perfect for the warped music that was Floyd.

    Petty was a pretty cool-looking guy. Ocasek looked weird than ugly. Perfect match of image and sound. A bit beetlejuicy.

  108. @istevefan
    Steve, that is not Paulina in that particular video. According to wikipedia,

    The video features band leader Ric Ocasek and model Susan Gallagher in a series of encounters
     
    Paulina appeared in the video for "Drive".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuZA6qiJVfU

    the Polish model Paulina Porizkova
     
    BTW, Paulina is a Czech, not a Pole.

    This is Alexander Jefferson level screw-up.

  109. Anonymous[751] • Disclaimer says:

    I’d seen and met plenty of celebrities–and I wasn’t some Cindy Crawford “fan” or anything–so what I’m describing I would have felt if she werent famous. She was just inhumanly beautiful.

    I was reminded of the height thing because I was in line at CVS of all places and I thought, “whoa, that guy is tall.” When I finally saw him I realized, “oh, that’s Rasheed Wallace.”

    But famous or not someone like Shaq would make an impression on you. You just don’t run into guys built like Shaq every day.

    • Replies: @Wolf Barney
    One of my high school buddies, an old basketball teamate, is 6'10" and has always received a lot of attention because of his height. When we attended the Chicago Jazz Festival in Grant Park in the early 80's and stood very close to 7' 2" NBA star Artis Gilmore, my tall friend didn't seem very tall. 7' 2" in real life is unbelievably tall.
    , @E. Rekshun
    I was reminded of the height thing because I was in line at CVS of all places and I thought, “whoa, that guy is tall.” When I finally saw him I realized, “oh, that’s Rasheed Wallace.”

    In the late '80s, I ran right into 7-7 Manute Bol as he was exiting the Boston DMV.

    The only other celebs I've run into were Hulk Hogan in a Tampa mall and Chic founder/guitarist Nile Rodgers at the Denver International Airport.

    For beautiful women, I favor Sophia Loren. The most beautifully exotic woman are found at the Miami International Airport. The most beautiful all-American young woman are found at the University of Florida, but I hear the University of Georgia is pretty great too!
  110. @Dave Pinsen
    Her teenage daughter looks just like her. Saw her in a full page add in the FT’s How To Spend It.

    And Cindy was going to be an engineering major at Northwestern.

    And she seems emotionally stable (I don’t remember any crazy scandals? And she’s been famous about as long as I’ve been alive).

    So I guess she’s just better than me.

  111. @MEH 0910
    The Cars playlist:
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nq_e_lWUWAgsT1bK6S2jj_r5L1kilmUrA

    Candy-O playlist:
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nVOV08coz1Zsd-wlJflHt_9iC0IZnJ1x8

    https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/8459509/the-cars-debut-album-1978

    “We used to joke that the first album should be called The Cars Greatest Hits,” Easton joked in the liners to Just What I Needed.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    While Easton isn't literally correct, it is worth noting that their debit album had 9 songs. Of those 9, 3 were released as singles and were all hits. Another 3 received heavy play on AOR stations. 6 out of 9 is pretty good. However, their biggest hits came off of Heartbeat City, mostly due to MTV.
  112. @Reg Cæsar
    Tangentially on-topic to the tangential topic of comely Slavs:


    https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/immigrants-europe-country-of-origin.jpg


    Lots of intriguing maps at Jakub Marian's site:


    Immigration in Europe: Map of the percentages and countries of origin of immigrants

    28 Maps That Will Completely Change The Way You View Europe

    I have heard quibbles about Marian’s accuracy: his maps are so perfectly conversation-worthy that I’d be careful about defending them.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    I said they were "intriguing", not precise. The questions are interesting, even if some of the answers are wrong. I'll defend their intrigue.
  113. @black sea
    I once told a Czech banker who had lived in various European cities that she was a gypsy, i.e. she had moved around a lot.

    She informed me rather evenly that this was the worst thing that you could call a Czech person.

    People who think of Romani romantically are like those people who admire Red Indians, but experience postdates fantasy, and I am certain that Czechs are not the only European people who would be offended by the comparison.

  114. @Dave Pinsen
    Her teenage daughter looks just like her. Saw her in a full page add in the FT’s How To Spend It.

    I heard FT was in trouble but I had not realized …

  115. @Peter Akuleyev
    Yes, Pavlina was Czech. Polish women are often attractive but not as attractive as Czechs, who, per capita, must produce the most stunning women in the world.

    Please let fourth comment through.
    Jest Podling Iustitia. PODLING IUSTITIA!
    Peter, what the hell did the Polish do to you, anyway?
    Poles and Czechs are almost the same people and when Derrida joked that they spoke the same language, but agreed to pretend to distinction, he wasn’t called an idiot. They are very similar languages.
    Anyone who has seen the Czech movie Closely Watched Trains or heard about Polish Catholicism might be able to provide an alternate explanation to your over-broad talent evaluation. Czechs embraced porn and Western media values early and hard, Poles are really really Catholic, which precludes that.
    There’s a ton of gorgeous women in Kazakhstan and we’re not seeing them sharing a website with Veronika Zemanova any time soon, for reasons that have nothing to do with talent.

  116. Are you a Wong Kar-wai fan?

    imo he might be our best living filmmaker.

  117. @Puremania
    Ric went against the grain. Karen Berg, A & R at Electra, got the Cars signed based on hearing a crummy lo fi cassette and recognizing obvious hit potential. He didn’t worry about a fancy demo, knowing that the tunes would stand. He also said he chose his guitars based on how they looked. Muso heresy, for the time.
    The Cars didn’t “jam” or even do improvised solos, but that mechanical sound was a cool departure from 60’s-70’s blues-rock overdose.
    And Ric was of the Pill we call Red: “They call us a ‘beauty and the beast’ couple” he said about his wife. “But, I don’t think she looks that bad”.

    The sound and the appearance of electric guitars in terms of color, outline, shape, etc. are in no way related. And to evaluate a guitar for playability you need to be pretty close.

    Certain design features like the type and placement of pickups, can give a clue, but humbuckers can have coil splits or taps.

    Guitar players all DO play certain guitars for looks, but not as the uninitiated would see it. Fans have certain expectations of what a certain kind of guitar does or should be used for and that’s what many, maybe most, players will select.

    For example, people associate Telecasters with a certain school of virtuosity because Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton, etc. were “masters of the Telecaster”. Working man Bruce Springsteen, riffmaster Keith Richards, and rock chick extraordinaire Chrissie Hynde all play Teles so that’s what someone wanting to convey that image will pick even though in the studio they might have used a 335 Gibson, a Strat or a PRS on the record. Same is true with Les Pauls, or, well, anything.

    With acoustic guitars form follows function more, but still people pick them for looks and association more than anything else. Martins, in particular, are the most overrated guitars out there in my experience. Most made between the early seventies and early 2000s are mediocre guitars and they all tend to need structural work-neck resets, repaired top cracks from pickguard shrinkage, fingerboard replacements or back shaving-as time goes on. A high end ¥amaha or Takamine is usually a better sounding guitar that will need less work.

    The two companies that can really manufacture guitars that consistently play well out of the box and hold up are Taylor and PRS. Gibson, Fender, Martin, and Rickenbacker are all legacy messes with no consistency and widely varying quality. Ricks are somewhat consistent, but they are also beset with issues that make them a niche product-either you love them or you hate them.(I hate them.) Gibson is the worst-they have made some good guitars and a lot of turds, some of which there is no economic fix for, the work would exceed the value of the instrument. Fenders due to their modular construction you usually can get into shape with skilled neck and pocket work. Martins are all fixable, but you know you’ll have to do it again in twenty years, and there are a lot of judgment calls to be made. Bluegrassers who string them with telephone cables and have the braces shaved for that “cannon” sound are the bane of any repairman. I hate bluegrassers from an instrument standpoint, there is no pleasing them because they want something that was a myth from the beginning.

    From that standpoint then Ocasek was completely rational.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    Springsteen used to play an Esquire, which was a poor man’s Tele back in the day as it only had one pickup. I have t paid attention in years, so no idea what he plays now, could be a celestial harp for all I care.
    , @kanye's doppelganger
    Gibson, Fender, Martin, and Rickenbacker are all legacy messes with no consistency and widely varying quality. Ricks are somewhat consistent, but they are also beset with issues that make them a niche product-either you love them or you hate them.(I hate them.) Gibson is the worst-they have made some good guitars and a lot of turds, some of which there is no economic fix for, the work would exceed the value of the instrument. Fenders due to their modular construction you usually can get into shape with skilled neck and pocket work.

    I'd agree. I'm currently a Gibson player, started as a Strat player. Gibson has literally no quality control. Their whole business model sucks. Here's one of the many "What Happened to Gibson" articles that's come out in the last few years. And here's a video of a shit Gibson guitar demolition that's been going around. I like LP fine- it's one of the Trad models, though that means a hefty 12 pounds, which most people don't want anymore. But is it worth what a comparably priced Fender would offer? No. Whatever their flaws, Fender retains long-time staff much more than Gibson does, and it shows in their quality control. I've finally settled into the "Let Gibson Die" mentality. They just don't deserve anyone's loyalty.

    I'l agree that PRS has pretty solid quality, but they really have no personality to them. They seem to be favored by guitarists who like a gainy, atmospheric sound- Dave Navarro comes to mind.

    The company that's coming along that really impresses me is Suhr. They're making a bid to become the next Fender- a company equally known for guitars and amps. I have to say, a lot of musicians I really respect have switched to their stuff, and it all sounds great.
  118. Ocasek may have written all of the Cars’ tunes and sung lead and more than half of their songs, but he was also smart enough to realize his own musical limitations, which is why he hired a better guitarist than himself (Elliott Easton) and Benjamin Orr as bassist and co-front man. After Orr died, Ocasek said while he never had confidence in his own singing voice, he always had confidence in Orr’s.

  119. @Anonymous
    My general experience in West LA was that nobody should feel sorry for celebrities because nobody bothered them where I normally saw them (high-end restaurants).

    So I assume the paparazzi stuff is planned with their PR departments to get them in the news.

    Sure, sometimes I'd see Al Pacino at Starbucks but most of the time I'd be seeing Brad Pitt at Toscana. Nobody who was a Toscana patron would dare bother the celebrities who dined there. I sat next to Rob Reiner and Luke Wilson and the female star (Kate Hudson?) when they had wrapped some movie that bombed hard. Nobody said nothin'.

    The Rock liked Dan Tanas and he can put away serious amounts of food.

    Larry David's favorite restaurant was Giorgio baldi. Good, if overpriced (who cares? We're all millionaires, right? Get the langoustine) . Everyone noticed him but nobody bothered him.

    Julie Andrews must have lived in Brentwood because I saw her consistently.

    Jan Michael Vincent was homeless in Santa Monica.

    Literally the only person I saw get asked for an autograph at a decent restaurant was Reba McIntyre of all people.

    But I will give credit to the in-n-out stars. because that place is a zoo and you realized they were only doing it for their kids sake.

    Surprises: when I saw David hasselhoff at spago he looked GOOD. easy to make fun of from a distance but in real life he looked like he should be famous. Arnold...is not 6'2. Jamie Lee Curtis would go to indie movies buying her own ticket and popcorn and talk to the employees.

    I once saw Arnold Schwarzenegger doing a spot with the guys from one of those NFL shows—that would be Howie Long and Cris Collinsworth and whoever the hell the other two were—and he looked like a midget. Even the lanky Collinsworth had broader shoulders and thinker limbs than Arnold, and Howie positively dominated him.

    Howie Long is listed at 6’5″, but I don’t believe it. If you watch him and Kevin Costner together in 3000 Miles to Graceland, they are just about the same height and Kevin Costner is a generous 6’3”.

    So if Howie Long is 6’4″ at most, then Arnie is stretching his last vertebrae to make it to 6’0″ based on the evidence I’ve seen.

    Now ask me about the time I body-guarded Alice Cooper. It’s a good story.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    I’ll bite, what about the time you bodyguarded Alice Cooper?
    , @Polynikes
    Saw and walked past Arnie last year. He might be 5'11", at best, in his old age. Maybe pushed 6' in his prime. And he was muscular, but not exceptionally wide like many of the similarly heighted pro football players you see. Guys that are six foot and can truly carry 250lbs of muscle are as unique as seven footers. I met DE Dwight freeney once and you could've hid my entire refrigerator behind him.
    , @Stan Adams
    Wilt Chamberlain, Ahh-nold, and Andre the Giant:
    https://i.redd.it/gdy86ljhies21.jpg
  120. @Clifford Brown
    I thought it was a pretty good story. How many politicians have fought delinquent greaser gangs armed with rusty shaving razors with a pool chain?

    Could Yang, Beto or Booker tell a similar story?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o-7MmhqNfA

    That immediately came to my mind too.

  121. @Bill B.
    Given how few blacks there are in Japan there is something extremely tedious about planting oneself on there and making a whole career off of perceived local reactions to oneself.

    Yes.

    He calls Japanese racist and is proud of the attention it brings him.

    His disdain for Japan comes through, at one point saying that moving back to NY was a “master plan I was hatching to break out of this joint and re-enter reality.” Reminds, again, that today’s immigrant doesn’t want to immerse and join another country, but show up and change it to suit his people.

  122. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    I don't know, Mick Jagger is one ugly dude. Be interesting to rank ugliest rock singers.

    Mick Jagger is one ugly dude

    If it makes you feel better his first wife was ugly as well. She ended up dating my congressman, and his people would cite this as a fact how hip his was: Oh, look, he is dating the ex-wife of a rock star.

  123. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Ocasek was certainly one of the ugliest men I've ever seen, but Roger Waters, Tom Petty and Alice Cooper are up there with him.

    BTW, the music of The Cars was terrible.

    PS - no love for Eddie Money?

    “no love for Eddie Money?”

    Mike,

    My Eddie Money story comes via my sister. Back in the mid ‘80’s one of my sisters close friends won a SF Bay Area radio contest. The prize was to have Eddie Money and his band perform at your party.

    My sisters friend had the party at her parents home in Santa Clara. Eddie, his band, and a small entourage showed up and performed a few songs. Eddie stayed for a few hours, most of the rest stayed past dawn. My sister said there were a lot of local girls at the party, and there was a lot of “activity” throughout the night. Eddie personally came through to ensure the friend was satisfied with the prize she had won.

    My sister was very disappointed in Eddie; as he had married to a much younger woman just a few months prior to the party. My sister was a few years junior Eddie’s bride and couldn’t fathom how Eddie could “treat his wife” like that.

    PS – I personally wasn’t of the opinion that the Cars were terrible, but did tire of them relatively quickly; as most everyone I knew bought and wore out that first record.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    Great story.
  124. @The Last Real Calvinist

    You know, I might not have believed in “super-models” in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I’d never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7’8 walked in the door and you were like, “Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7’8 before and I didn’t know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was.”

     

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I'd admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful -- absolutely mesmerizing.

    Of course, tastes, vary, but people who repeat (and pretend to believe) the canard 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' need to come face to face with someone who possesses that degree of almost unearthly comeliness. There's no arguing it doesn't exist when you've seen it.

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I’d admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful — absolutely mesmerizing.

    This being the internet era, it would be nice if we could judge for ourselves the looks of this particular sloe-eyed beauty. Name, please (in English or otherwise, thanks to the miracle of cut and paste).

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Name, please (in English or otherwise, thanks to the miracle of cut and paste).

     

    Sure; it was Rosamund Kwan.

    She's in her 50s now, but incident I'm recalling was quite a ways back, so she would have been in her 30s at that time.

    Here are a couple of photos:

    https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BZGRmNWFhN2Ut[email protected]._V1_.jpg

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rr4E3Q4lphM/TrGtwHfdXKI/AAAAAAAAsl8/nHzdKQusZx4/s1600/Rosamund%2BKwan1.jpg
  125. @Anonymous
    Paulina was in the video for the song “Drive”.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xuZA6qiJVfU

    Drive, One of my favorites.

  126. @Dave Pinsen
    https://twitter.com/johncardillo/status/1172584089251143681?s=21

    Money wasn’t a cop per se, but rather a clerk/typist for the NYPD.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Makes sense. He moved to Los Angeles at 19. I don't think there are many 19 year old cops in the NYPD or anywhere else in America. Most usually have a couple of years of military or college under their belt before the enter the academy.
  127. @Bill B.
    Given how few blacks there are in Japan there is something extremely tedious about planting oneself on there and making a whole career off of perceived local reactions to oneself.

    My personal favourite is this gem.

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2018/05/20/our-lives/black-people-dangerous-japan/#.XX7FAmYo9PY

    I’d love to say these YouTubers are completely off their rockers with this diatribe, but the truth is, their concerns are not entirely unfounded. You see, I know for a fact, I am definitely a danger to Japan!

    The way I see it, the only way Japan could have avoided the danger that myself and like-minded people represent — the perils that invariably accompany transition — is if they had kept this island nation isolated. Maybe pull a Trump card and build a wall. But that would not have been in the country’s best interest. Nor is behaving as if the nation is in fact isolated, homogenous, or even capable of stemming the tide of foreign influence on the culture and customs here.

    Those days are over. The people here, both Japanese and foreign, who embrace this truth will position themselves to succeed in the years to come. Those that don’t, well, they will likely erect or support the erection of obstacles to progress, or spew hate on video, as backward thinkers everywhere tend to do.

    Meanwhile, the world is going to keep coming here, some with embossed invitations due to Japanese necessity, some with adventurous sensibilities and disposable cash, some seeking opportunities to prosper, and some running for their lives from desperate situations seeking refuge.

    Does he understand that that’s a threat and pure spite? Japan doesn’t belong to the Japanese and they have no right to expect not to be ethnically displaced just because ‘globalisation’. The question I keep asking ‘why?’ never comes up. The only people who want Japan to stop being Japan are foreign ingrates in Japan.

  128. @Mr. Anon
    I was never a big fan of the Cars or Eddie Money, but given that they each had one really great song - Drive and Baby Hold on to Me, well,................I guess I am a big fan of them.

    Cars or Eddie Money, but given that they each had one really great song

    You are deeply discounting the oeuvre of each of them. I can easily name at least 5 great songs by each without trying very hard.

    The Cars, much like Talking Heads, leveraged the popularity of MTV by producing memorable videos for the singles off of Heartbeat City. Ironically they didn’t do shit after that.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    I've heard some of their other stuff, and I just don't think it's great. Your opinion differs, and that's fine. Opinions differ. My opinion is just my opinion - it's not authoritative.

    But we can agree that Drive is an iconic song of the 80s - I'd rate it as one of the 80's top five (and of those five, probably the best one). And Baby Hold on to Me is an iconic song of the 70s, and perhaps one of the top five of that era. I would vote both acts into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame just based on the strength of those songs.
  129. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    Cindy Crawford is one of those women (I had a high school classmate the same way) who, after she had kids, needed to add some weight back. Those are super genes.

  130. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Paulina Porizkova and Elle Macpherson ( aka The Body ) were roommates in NYC in the early 1980’s.

     

    I had no idea. That seems to transgress some kind of boundary in the time-space matrix.

    Can you imagine having been their next-door neighbor, or even living down the hall? Among several other things, you’d learn not to bother telling people about it years later, because absolutely no one would believe you.

  131. @Altai
    I discovered a sister term to 'caucasity', 'white-ality'.

    The last time I seriously intended to skedaddle was in March 2014, when I went to New York for a working vacation. I reconnected with friends and family and did several readings. Hanging with folk I’ve known all my life and luxuriating in the warm embrace of an environment where I wasn’t incongruous filled me with a renewed sense of belonging. And, though my former hometown was gentrified to within an inch of being indistinguishable, it burst at the seams with vitality (though a bit too much “white-ality”). Bistros and bookstores had replaced barbershops and bodegas, and that industrious, chichi, upwardly mobile part of me saw plenty of opportunities to prosper. That had cinched it for me. I was putting together an exit strategy and a business plan on the plane back to Japan.
     
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2018/12/19/our-lives/2018-year-japan-began-listen/#.XX7GVWYo9PY

    This guys whole column series 'Black Eye' is amazing fodder. There is so much but I'll limit to just one other excerpt.

    I expected Obama’s victory over there to result in changing attitudes over here. I expected Obama’s coup to be the mother lode of good vibrations that would reverberate wherever black people dwell. I knew it would inform black youth that their potential is unlimited, and that’s a beautiful thing, but was it powerful enough to have an impact on the Japanese assessment of “blackness” and to inspire some here to critically rethink the foul and/or ignorant notions that remain pervasive? Sad to report, I perceived not a smidgen of change. It’s like black excellence is viewed as an exception to the natural state of blackness.
     

    Sometimes I just can’t help thinking…’Good Lord I am sick to death of negroes.’

    • Replies: @Alden
    Me too. I’ve been sick of them since college and that was a long long time ago. Vicious nasty hateful and incessant sex harassers. I wish they’d just disappear.
  132. @Mr. Anon
    I can understand why you felt cheated. They're entertainers, and if they are performing live, they should entertain.

    Still, I've never much liked rock concert performances. Pop music is such a synthetic creation that a lot of the sound depends on how it is produced in the studio. An orchestra can sound as good live as on a recording, but a rock group seldom so.

    Orchestras actually sound better live.

    Rock groups, not so much.

  133. @The Last Real Calvinist
    A music star's good looks, or lack thereof, is one theme in 'The Commitments', a movie I'm very fond of.

    The lead singer of the eponymous group is a 17-year-old who's described as having a voice from God (he really does; it's incredible). As an adolescent guy who's becoming a star, he expects girls to fall at his feet, but the problem is that he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook. He's got none of that gamine rock star look going for him. Instead, he's all beefy and sweaty, and the girls in the band think he looks like a pig.

    https://tageswoche.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/imagescms-image-004725278-980x653.jpg

    I’m pretty sure Meat Loaf never had any trouble getting laid and he’s also a sweaty pig.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    I’m pretty sure Meat Loaf never had any trouble getting laid and he’s also a sweaty pig.

     

    No doubt. I'm just recalling the plot of the movie. It would be interesting to know what happened to the guy who played Deco, the lead singer in The Commitments, i.e. Andrew Strong. Has he led a Deco life, or a Meat Loaf life?

    I googled Andrew Strong, and it appears he's still around as a performer, sort of. His website (LINK) has a bio that has not been updated since 2011, but there is a notice about a performance earlier this year.

    The photos reveal that Strong's early-onset male pattern baldness, which was already well evident in The Commitments, has completed its work.

    Ironically, I said in my original comment that in the movie he looked 45 years old. That's exactly how old he is now, but he now looks 55.

    Would he have had a different career if he looked like Mick Jagger? Or even like Ric Ocasek?

  134. @Abe

    He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.
     
    Billy *COUGH* Joel

    May I remind you that Lyle Lovett snagged Julia Roberts. Yeah yeah, not really rock, but still.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    Lyle Lovett might be one of the nicest people I’ve ever met.
    , @sayless
    Good looks are one thing, magnetism is something else. Tom Cruise is good looking but doesn’t have it. For me, anyway.

    But Michael Dunn had it, especially onstage, and he was a dwarf.
    , @Thea
    Lovett is one of the most underrated contemporary musicians. A national treasure.
  135. @The Last Real Calvinist

    You know, I might not have believed in “super-models” in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I’d never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7’8 walked in the door and you were like, “Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7’8 before and I didn’t know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was.”

     

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I'd admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful -- absolutely mesmerizing.

    Of course, tastes, vary, but people who repeat (and pretend to believe) the canard 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' need to come face to face with someone who possesses that degree of almost unearthly comeliness. There's no arguing it doesn't exist when you've seen it.

    Of course, tastes, vary, but people who repeat (and pretend to believe) the canard ‘beauty is in the eye of the beholder’ need to come face to face with someone who possesses that degree of almost unearthly comeliness. There’s no arguing it doesn’t exist when you’ve seen it.

    When I lived in NYC, I had a job that entailed meeting and dealing with Ford models regularly, and what you say is absolutely true. Most people who talk about a “beautiful girl” have no idea what they’re talking about.

    They’re genetic freaks, and most are wretches, god bless ’em. Some know they’re wretches leading ridiculous lives. Some don’t. But most are.

  136. For the record:

    The Cars had TWO lead singers. Benjamin Orr was the lead singer, in fact, on many of their most popular songs — Just What I Needed, Let’s Go, Drive; also Moving in Stereo, You’re All I’ve Got Tonight, Bye Bye Love, It’s All I Can Do.

    in contrast to Ocasek’s famed ugliness and quirky “New Wave” vocal style, Orr was Jim Morrison-level handsome and had a good traditional rock voice, including a sensuous croon. “Drive” would not be the huge beloved hit that it is, had the lead singer been Ocasek. Ocasek, like Pete Townsend, was smart enough to know he needed someone else who could sing his songs better to be commercially successful.

    Interestingly, however, Ric Ocasek was always “the focal point” and Orr is almost unknown to the general public.

    Orr did not marry a supermodel. He had a bunch of kids with a bunch of women.

    Here is thorough background about The Cars:
    https://rockportraits.wordpress.com/2014/09/25/the-cars/

    Fun fact: Only the Cars’ drummer, David Robinson, was actually from the Boston area.

    • Replies: @anon
    Oddly enough, Ocasek and Orr were buddies and band mates for a long time before the Cars even.

    You rarely see (or at least it's my observation) young women of vastly different comeliness being friends. I guess that rule doesn't apply as much to males.
  137. @Altai
    I discovered a sister term to 'caucasity', 'white-ality'.

    The last time I seriously intended to skedaddle was in March 2014, when I went to New York for a working vacation. I reconnected with friends and family and did several readings. Hanging with folk I’ve known all my life and luxuriating in the warm embrace of an environment where I wasn’t incongruous filled me with a renewed sense of belonging. And, though my former hometown was gentrified to within an inch of being indistinguishable, it burst at the seams with vitality (though a bit too much “white-ality”). Bistros and bookstores had replaced barbershops and bodegas, and that industrious, chichi, upwardly mobile part of me saw plenty of opportunities to prosper. That had cinched it for me. I was putting together an exit strategy and a business plan on the plane back to Japan.
     
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2018/12/19/our-lives/2018-year-japan-began-listen/#.XX7GVWYo9PY

    This guys whole column series 'Black Eye' is amazing fodder. There is so much but I'll limit to just one other excerpt.

    I expected Obama’s victory over there to result in changing attitudes over here. I expected Obama’s coup to be the mother lode of good vibrations that would reverberate wherever black people dwell. I knew it would inform black youth that their potential is unlimited, and that’s a beautiful thing, but was it powerful enough to have an impact on the Japanese assessment of “blackness” and to inspire some here to critically rethink the foul and/or ignorant notions that remain pervasive? Sad to report, I perceived not a smidgen of change. It’s like black excellence is viewed as an exception to the natural state of blackness.
     

    Bistros and bookstores had replaced barbershops and bodegas

    I’ll add a fifth b-word to that list: bullshit. Famously, bookstores haven’t been replacing anything for a long time now.

    • LOL: bomag
  138. OT:

    “A former NFL player allegedly created a fake hate crime at his Georgia business in which he claimed burglars spray painted racial slurs, swastikas and “MAGA” at his bakery.”

    “Edawn Louis Coughman, 31, was arrested Thursday on charges of filing a false report of a crime, insurance fraud, and concealing a license plate after he told police a burglar was responsible for spray painting racist language and imagery on the walls of his bakery, according to Gwinett County Police.”

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1054591

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=U_rsJqEluZU

  139. @Ripple Earthdevil
    Slovakia was part of Czechoslovakia, not Yugoslavia.

    And Yugoslavia was not Soviet – it was Communist but not Russian occupied.

    And Joy Reid is an idiot.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    That last sentence was superfluous.
  140. My first concert ever. Camped out for tickets, Sunrise, Florida. Got 7th row seats. Great show. Met new long standing friends. Ahh teenage years in the 1980s.

    After 25 the ability to form new close friendships sharply declines .

  141. @South Texas Guy

    The great line about Mick Jagger I heard was that “Mick Jagger looks like Don Knotts.
     
    I believe I remember seeing one of those biography programs that said Knotts was actually quite the ladies man back in the 60s post 'Mayberry.'

    Recently, someone (Conan?) on a podcast was telling a 2nd hand story about how Knotts bedded a number of the young twenty-somethings that appeared on Three’s Company despite being 30+ years their senior and married.

  142. @Anonymous
    Deb was on her second go-around, having been with a trippy baroque folk rock group put out by Artie Kornfeld of Woodstock fame, called Wind in the Willows, circa 1968/69. They sounded like a cross between the Mamas and the Papas and It's A Beautiful Day, with a trifle Jefferson Airplane thrown in there. They really were pretty good, but they came out about a year too late, and their second album never got released. Supposedly the masters are lost, but rumor has it Peter Leeds (who was involved with Blondie, later, early on, and who D and Chris hate, hate, hate, he did fuck them over) has it stashed somewhere.

    D does not like to talk about this , I've brought it up and it was clear she was upset about something and I dropped the matter. I've also talked to (now Dr.) Wayne Kirby (currently a professor at UNC Asheville) about it and he seemed to not want to revisit the matter either.

    In about two weeks , Debbie's autobiography (also in a sense her second go around, after the largely autobiographical Making Tracks) will be released. Steve, you know, it would be a good idea really for you to review this book.

    I’d recommend to anyone interested in D. Harry gossip etc. from back in the day 20th Century Boy: Notebooks of the Seventies by my acquaintance Duncan Hannah. Really fun light reading from a guy who knew pretty much everyone in NYC when he was a (very) young man.

  143. @Hhsiii
    RIP.

    The riff in Best Friend’s Girl is ripped from the Beatles’ I Will. Similarly the riff in Costello’s Two Little Hitlers is from Rebel Rebel.

    I saw Ocasek and Porsikova at an upscale pan-American foodie joint in Gramercy 25 years ago. Another tall model on his other arm. He was like 6’5” 140 pounds.

    RIP Ric. You gave hope to all us ugly guys that we could indeed snag a hottie.

    It is my belief that the Fountains of Wayne song Stacy’s Mom is an homage to My Best Friend’s Girl.

    My favorite Cars number is You’re All I’ve Got Tonight/ Bye Bye Love

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    Bye Bye Love was a bit like the crystal left over from the Fortress of Solitude after Superman destroyed it. When someone played that song on the radio after years of change and I had destroyed my own fortress of solitude, it helped me rebuild it.
    , @Ron Mexico
    Interesting thought I never considered. And the visuals are based on that wonderful Phoebe Cates Fast Times scene in which Moving in Stereo plays. Makes sense.
  144. @Buzz Mohawk
    His marriage to Paulina lasted a long time, and that's saying something.

    "Good Times Roll" was the first song on The Cars great first album. It was the perfect introduction to their sound, and it made a big impression when first heard on the radio.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BDBzgHXf64

    Great song great record

  145. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    A very funny friend of mine got to know Cindy Crawford pretty well during his I think nine-year undergraduate career at Northwestern.

    One night a few years after college he was drinking with a mutual friend of theirs when Crawford’s face came on the TV. My friend’s friend stared at Crawford for a few seconds, then took another swig and proclaimed: “Here’s the thing. She will never be able to say she didn’t know us.”

  146. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    It’s also very true what they say about the camera adding ten pounds. You don’t get a sense of how truly thin these models and actresses are until you see them in person. I had a similar experience many years ago, when I was standing in line at Chipotle behind Jen Carfagno, who at the time was easily the hottest anchorwoman at The Weather Channel. Way hotter in person than on camera.

    • Replies: @anonymous2space
    I sat next to Kate Beckinsale at a small theater show.


    She was beautiful and yes noticeably extremely thin. I also buy the "camera adds 10 lbs." line unironically. Kate Beckinsale would stand out for that reason if you didn't know who she was.

    I think Steve has commented on being next to Reese Witherspoon and just thinking how tiny she is.

  147. @Achmed E. Newman
    They put a lot of effort into their music videos back then, lots of the artists, that is. When that song above was on MTV, in the early '80's, it was the heyday of MTV. They'd play 8 or 10 songs and then a commercial or two. That channel went to pot in about 1990 or so.

    Video killed the radio star.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwuy4hHO3YQ

    • Replies: @Bubba
    Those very talented kids were wonderful and I wonder what they are doing now. I think they may have gotten their name from this 1993 Wallace and Gromit skit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A16YuzuKN58

    https://www.sandiegoreader.com/bands/wrong-trousers/#
  148. @jb
    Of all the 80's supermodels I thought Paulina Porizkova was the most beautiful. And yet I remember reading an article she wrote once where she talked about how insecure she had always been about her looks!

    Supposedly, she had bad teeth.

  149. His very odd advanced age when he finally hit it big might explain why his departure from the spotlight to start working behind the scenes in production also seemed way earlier than expected in comparison to the typical big name musician.

  150. anon[398] • Disclaimer says:

    Ric Ocasek was not a handsome guy and was way too skinny. But nonetheless I think he is still an important example why you should watch your weight.

    He still existed enough in the world of the young record-buying public to become one of their musical icons in his mid-thirties. Something that seems unlikely for an over-weight guy at Ocasek’s break-through age. (Also didn’t hurt that his co-lead in the Cars, Benjamin Orr, was actually very handsome.)

  151. @Mr. Anon
    I can understand why you felt cheated. They're entertainers, and if they are performing live, they should entertain.

    Still, I've never much liked rock concert performances. Pop music is such a synthetic creation that a lot of the sound depends on how it is produced in the studio. An orchestra can sound as good live as on a recording, but a rock group seldom so.

    Pop music is such a synthetic creation…

    This.

    Ironic that it has its roots in folk music, which could be sung by anyone around a campfire a cappella/with simple instruments.

  152. @Anonymous
    Hi Steve! I’m pretty sure that not Paulina Porizkova in the video. For one thing, Paulina doesn’t have a turned-up nose.

    All those times I checked her out in Playboy, and I never noticed her nose.

  153. @Steve Sailer
    Bowie eventually aged into handsomeness, but the classic rock star look tended to be symmetrical but unusual: too delicate or too alien or too gaunt or too something to be movie star handsome: e.g., Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith. Johnny Depp is a rare movie star who also looks like a rock star. Maybe Val Kilmer too.

    Generally, square-jawed Tom Cruise handsomeness isn't what rock stars have. Rock stars typically have high cheekbones and small jaws.

    In general, rock stars tend to be heterosexuals with some effeminate traits, such as dancing ability and loving the crowd's adoration. E.g., Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn't really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That's his dad's character he's playing. Bruce admits he's more of a delicate artsy type.

    Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn’t really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That’s his dad’s character he’s playing. Bruce admits he’s more of a delicate artsy type.

    In other words, a phony and a class traitor. But, one must admit, a brilliant role player. Probably the best con man in musical history and a stone-cold great songwriter, possibly the best rock song writer ever.

    This is why Bruce ended up being a fey Leftist squish rather than the lunch-box Trump supporter he should be. The best that can be said of him is that he may have truly empathized with the plight of the white working class. But then he’s too stupid to realize the politics he supports is a knife blade aimed right at the heart of the people he came from.

    • Replies: @Macnucc11
    Well to be expected though. Working class dads did not bring up their children to follow them to a factory job. Like all parents they wanted better for their kids but you are spot on about his politics not matching his stage persona. That said keep in mind that not all working class = conservative. Many have bought into big government handouts. Democrat politicians rule most of our cities and many working class jobs are closed shop union jobs.
    , @donvonburg

    This is why Bruce ended up being a fey Leftist squish rather than the lunch-box Trump supporter he should be. The best that can be said of him is that he may have truly empathized with the plight of the white working class. But then he’s too stupid to realize the politics he supports is a knife blade aimed right at the heart of the people he came from.
     
    I suspect he realizes it fully, but like Kirk in the Star Trek episode where he has to let Joan Collins' character be killed to unwind the disaster of a history in which he will not be present, considers it the price that must be paid.

    Bruce owes his "street cred" to certain liberal press and opinionmakers' promotion and is afraid that if he "came clean", all the goodies he has would go away. Not just for himself, but the real trap of souls, for his family. Didn't his buying a six figure horse for his daughter make the news recently?

    Many a man, or woman, will sign a deal with the Devil (usually metaphorically, but not always) not for themselves but their family, their associates, their colleagues.

    Mr. Sailer has Bruce pegged as a heterosexual but artsy and even somewhat nebbishy man in the body and persona of an idealized (as opposed to actual) "windbreaker type", a union auto or steel worker or whatnot. Actual blue collar factory work-I did it, I was a sheet metal fabricator and a prefab roofing plant woodworker-would bore Bruce to tears, and he'd probably quit paying attention and hurt himself or someone else badly. I think he lives with this contradiction more than people realize.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Bruce has had a weird, countercyclical sensibility. He was an accidental beneficiary of the patriotic Reaganism wave in 1984, because “Born In The USA” sounded like a patriotic anthem if you ignored the other lyrics. Then he comes out with his nouveau Depression-themed “Ghost of Tom Joad” just when the late ‘90s economic boom is about to kick off. And then, in the depths of financial crisis, he plays an outrageously upbeat set during the Super Bowl.
    , @J.Ross
    Neil Strauss's compilation of music star interviews (Everyone Loves You When You're Dead) is suspiciously perfect in bearing out expectations: this could be Strauss tailoring information to feed biases and "sound correct," like every fortune teller, or it could be because these guys, being public figures, had already been accurately introduced through much other media.
    In the book, U2's Bono is a pretentious douchebag pseudo-martyr, Eddie Money might be a Nazi (well, he was a cop), Rick James is a dedicated partier, Neil Young is an ornery old man, and the brothers of Oasis are the most unapologetically self-important megalomaniacs to ever rip off the ideas of others, which is pretty much how they're seen.
    Bruce Springsteen comes off as a genuinely nice guy who tips well.
    , @black sea

    Probably the best con man in musical history and a stone-cold great songwriter, possibly the best rock song writer ever.
     
    Springsteen is indeed a song writer of immense talent, a fact which many people find hard to square with his equally immense commercial success. A lot of people hold it against him that he's attained such wealth and fame, because they want their artists poor, lonely, and known only to themselves and a handful of devotees. In other words, they're looking for beautiful losers, so that they can feel a bit less loserish themselves.

    As far as being a poseur, Springsteen is self-aware enough to know it and honest enough to admit it, which is more than you can say for most people, since we're all faking it to some extent anyway.

  154. America’s very own Prussian Sports Illustrated swimsuit model — Carol Alt — is much better looking than that Czech bow wow dog Porizkova.

    The Alt-Right was also named after Carol Alt because of her beauty and strength and because she is a strong and proud AMERICAN WOMAN!

    This Czech lady Porizkova was a Johnny-come-lately Sports Illustrated swimsuit model interloper to the AMERICAN GALS Tiegs, Brinkley, Alt, Ireland, Alexis and many, many other beautiful and shapely AMERICAN LADIES.

    Porizkova looks damn good in green, and nearly naked, but she ain’t an AMERICAN!

    AMERICAN SWIMSUIT MODELS FIRST!

    DAMMIT!

    Now for a good looking Polish woman in a swimsuit or nearly naked, how about Caroline Wozniacki?

    Caroline Wozniacki was born in Denmark to Polish parents and I guess she can hit a tennis ball or something. Caroline Wozniacki posed in Sports Illustrated and she should make the Polish people proud.

    I certainly wouldn’t turn down an offer of a pot roast and potato dinner cooked by Porizkova.

    We could discuss her fine writing style and that picture she did in a beret reading a book and looking stylish. Porizkova wrote a bit where she was somewhat irritated by some oaf on a plane who didn’t recognize her as one of the swimsuit models and it gave her more motivation to do her best in the photo shoot to prove to others that they can do their best at any age. She is a better writer than many of us Unz Review commenters — including me — even if the subject matter was boring. I’m just saying that Porizkova’s writing is indicative of a woman who has read well.

  155. RIP.

    Something about this one makes me feel like a certain age is passing away.

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    I often feel the same. For example, I read recently that Valery Harper, Rhoda Morgenstern, in The Mary Tyler Moore Show, had died. Although I never really cared for the character, I also felt that a certain age is passing away before my eyes.
  156. @EK
    Czech, not Polish.

    Yeah, unless she anglicized her name the v is a dead giveaway.

  157. @Mr. Anon
    I can understand why you felt cheated. They're entertainers, and if they are performing live, they should entertain.

    Still, I've never much liked rock concert performances. Pop music is such a synthetic creation that a lot of the sound depends on how it is produced in the studio. An orchestra can sound as good live as on a recording, but a rock group seldom so.

    If they make the performance sound like the album then what’s the point. Petty was rather successful at changing the whole nature of a song and grab the crowd, but then the next day you might ask why did I howl “EAH””OHH” for two hours. If they never had to perform live the Replacements might still be putting out records/sober/alive/talking to each other. From the other side there are also many groups that play live really well, but never last long because their songs aren’t radio friendly.

  158. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    You know, I might not have believed in “super-models” in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    I don’t know if she counts as a super-model, but about 20 years ago I gave a ride to Linda Carter (her car had broken down on the side of a fairly busy DC area road). She was stunning, even standing there on the side of a road in 90+ degree heat and humidity. She’ll be beautiful when she’s 75.

    On top of that, she was very pleasant and had a good sense of humor. Robert Altman hit the jackpot.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Linda Carter [sic] ... Robert Altman hit the jackpot.
     
    So we're clear, Lynda Carter isn't married to the film director.
  159. @The Last Real Calvinist
    A music star's good looks, or lack thereof, is one theme in 'The Commitments', a movie I'm very fond of.

    The lead singer of the eponymous group is a 17-year-old who's described as having a voice from God (he really does; it's incredible). As an adolescent guy who's becoming a star, he expects girls to fall at his feet, but the problem is that he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook. He's got none of that gamine rock star look going for him. Instead, he's all beefy and sweaty, and the girls in the band think he looks like a pig.

    https://tageswoche.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/imagescms-image-004725278-980x653.jpg

    Described as having a voice from God (he really does; it’s incredible)…he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook[;] all beefy and sweaty[,] he looks like a pig.

    Those with truly amazing pipes are sometimes allowed to be tubby and make it big….

    Rockstars are, by definition, though, outliers. Go to any music department at a university and most of the best vocalists are chubby if not obese; this trend holds even among the majority of working singers – in night clubs, musical theatre, and so on (it’s harder to make it big on Broadway or sell out arenas, though, without being attractive, too). I’ve often suspected one reason the guys in Kiss adopted the gimmick of the make-up is that they cleverly realised how ugly they were, and used it to avoid competing with the pretty boys of glam-rock who reigned supreme at the time. Peter Gabriel was a very handsome young man who nevertheless adopted make-up and masks, and even that crazily shaven hair with nothing but success to show for it – still, his peak commercial fame came later, when he cut his hair, took off the make-up, and began dressing like the leading man for a romantic comedy from central casting (around the time of So.

    Is there any single trait that can make life so dramatically difficult or easy as the mere accident of being born ugly or gorgeous? I really don’t think there is….

    • Replies: @danand

    “I’ve often suspected one reason the guys in Kiss adopted the gimmick of the make-up is that they cleverly realised how ugly they were, and used it to avoid competing with the pretty boys of glam-rock who reigned supreme at the time.”
     

    Autochthon,

    I use to think that Kiss simply took their inspiration from the henchman characters of the most memorable movie of my pre/early teens; Brian de Palma’s Phantom of the Paradise. But it could just as likely been Vice Versa I guess?

    https://flic.kr/p/2hgsbrz
    , @The Last Real Calvinist

    Those with truly amazing pipes are sometimes allowed to be tubby and make it big….

    ...

    Is there any single trait that can make life so dramatically difficult or easy as the mere accident of being born ugly or gorgeous? I really don’t think there is….
     
    This is a fascinating conundrum.

    Here's an interesting test case. There's a Christian singer named David Phelps; he's got a remarkable tenor voice -- tremendous range, good technique (he's classically-trained), and a nice warm tone (for a tenor).

    When he broke out, he was pretty chubby. He looked, in fact, much older than his years -- he was also balding -- and resembled a Texas short-order cook. He sang with the Gaither Vocal Band for quite a few years.

    Then he was suddenly skinny, he floofed out his hair somehow, and he went solo, although he's been back with the Gaithers off and on. But to me, he just does not sound as good as he did when he was fatter. His voice has lost some richness and attractiveness, although he seems to have retained most of the range.
    , @Clyde

    Peter Gabriel was a very handsome young man who nevertheless adopted make-up and masks, and even that crazily shaven hair with nothing but success to show for it – still, his peak commercial fame came later, when he cut his hair, took off the make-up, and began dressing like the leading man for a romantic comedy from central casting (around the time of So.
     
    He was very good back then. So was Sting. 1980s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AqkoidUZ8
  160. @William Badwhite

    You know, I might not have believed in “super-models” in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.
     
    I don't know if she counts as a super-model, but about 20 years ago I gave a ride to Linda Carter (her car had broken down on the side of a fairly busy DC area road). She was stunning, even standing there on the side of a road in 90+ degree heat and humidity. She'll be beautiful when she's 75.

    On top of that, she was very pleasant and had a good sense of humor. Robert Altman hit the jackpot.

    Linda Carter [sic] … Robert Altman hit the jackpot.

    So we’re clear, Lynda Carter isn’t married to the film director.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite

    So we’re clear, Lynda Carter isn’t married to the film director.

     

    True. In a bizarre coincidence, there is more than one person named Robert Altman in the world. She's married to the BCCI lawyer. He was pretty big news circa 1991-92. He did the near-impossible: get charged federally, refuse to plea bargain, then be acquitted of all charges.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1984/10/08/robert-altman-joins-ranks-of-super-lawyers/8dedd88b-1138-4c79-8718-e9d19710bd75/

    She's also not married to this guy:

    http://www.altmanlawoffices.com/our-attorneys/robert-bob-altman/
  161. @Anonymous
    My general experience in West LA was that nobody should feel sorry for celebrities because nobody bothered them where I normally saw them (high-end restaurants).

    So I assume the paparazzi stuff is planned with their PR departments to get them in the news.

    Sure, sometimes I'd see Al Pacino at Starbucks but most of the time I'd be seeing Brad Pitt at Toscana. Nobody who was a Toscana patron would dare bother the celebrities who dined there. I sat next to Rob Reiner and Luke Wilson and the female star (Kate Hudson?) when they had wrapped some movie that bombed hard. Nobody said nothin'.

    The Rock liked Dan Tanas and he can put away serious amounts of food.

    Larry David's favorite restaurant was Giorgio baldi. Good, if overpriced (who cares? We're all millionaires, right? Get the langoustine) . Everyone noticed him but nobody bothered him.

    Julie Andrews must have lived in Brentwood because I saw her consistently.

    Jan Michael Vincent was homeless in Santa Monica.

    Literally the only person I saw get asked for an autograph at a decent restaurant was Reba McIntyre of all people.

    But I will give credit to the in-n-out stars. because that place is a zoo and you realized they were only doing it for their kids sake.

    Surprises: when I saw David hasselhoff at spago he looked GOOD. easy to make fun of from a distance but in real life he looked like he should be famous. Arnold...is not 6'2. Jamie Lee Curtis would go to indie movies buying her own ticket and popcorn and talk to the employees.

    One cannot but wonder if the exception occurred because Reba McIntyre is such a nice and down-to-earth person, and her fanbase similarly just plain folks. Perhaps fans of hers are less intimidated about asking for an autograph (she’s known to be a gracious lady) and more eager to get one (fans of country music are less jaded than average). Al Pacino may be affable and grandfatherly for all I know, but his public persona is the opposite (largely because of the tough-guy roles he’s played), and his fanbase probably includes more hipsters who fancy themselves too cool for the room and unwilling to be impressed by a star in front of their friends….

  162. @anonymous
    For years Ocasek's listed year of birth was 1949. When the debut album hit stores in 1978 he could claim to still be in his twenties.

    The fact that he lied about his age shows you the value that rock once placed on youth (“never trust anyone over 30”). Rock was music by youth and for youth. Now everyone has aged and you have senior citizen rockers singing for senior citizen fans and the “never trust anyone over 30” bit is “no longer operative”.

  163. The Cars were ok….they sort of “mainstreamed” “new wave” (whatever that meant). I think their songs had a deliberate vapid meaningless about them that was on purpose (similar to Blondie), that’s why it never appealed to me much but a good sound and refreshing to hear on the radio as opposed to the same Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin, etc of the late 1970’s.

    I prefer E Costello, Squeeze, Nick Lowe/Dave Edmunds, Warren Zevon, John Hiatt, for my two cents.

    • Replies: @donvonburg
    The Cars and Blondie were in fact the two canonical American New Wave bands. Their music was, as Lester Bangs said, "Andy-school" it was based on the Warholian idea of conveying style with a substance that was no substance at all, so the viewer could read into it what he or she wanted. People with any political, religious, sexual, social orientation could equally like it, it accepted all on its own terms. Offending no one, challenging no one, except to like it in the moment.

    In both cases it was a smash hit. It's hard to not like their musics, that was the point. Few are rabid fans but enough people like them they're in rotation for the rest of their lives, and then some.

    I have never met anyone in either band but I did a lutherie workshop in a music store where Clem Burke, the Blondie drummer, was doing a drum clinic. People who were not Blondie fans-mostly metalheads and fusion nerds-were over there watching this guy, stunned into silence. What the **** was this guy doing with a band of trendy nincompoops led by an awkward retired stewardess type in her late fifties? I watched the guy for about ten minutes and came away thinking that it had to be some kind of cosmic chuckle of the universe. He was phenomenally solid and powerful.

    In the Cars, the real talent besides Ocasek's good judgment and lack of ego to hire people better than himself was Eliott Easton, the lefty phenomenon guitar player. Benjamin Orr was also great. Blondie's flaw, if they had one, is that none of the guys could sing (or if they could, they didn't) and so you didn't get the great advantage of mixed vocals like Fleetwood Mac. You saw that with Stevie's first solo album having a hit with Tom Petty, and later on the phenomenal, if underrated, record and tour Mark Knopfler did with country queen Emmylou Harris.

    In contrast British new wave outfits always had to make some kind of political or social statement, and you loved or hated them for it. There was always deeper emotion but it was usually over something later coming off as ridiculous or outright rotten.
  164. @Bugg
    Saw the Cars in the late 1970s or early 1980s at Madison Square Garden. Simply the worst live act I can recall.Indifferent to the crowd, ran through their hits in workmanlike fashion, and didn't play but 80 minutes during times when nobody cared about stage union OT. So bands usually played 2 hours even if they didn't have that much material(and the Cars did not). Perhaps getting to the big time late in life made them jaded, but they played like they wanted to get off stage as soon as possible. May be to get with said Eastern Euro supermodels forthwith? RIP.

    The Cars were an MTV act. Seeing them live was bound to be disappointing because they couldn’t do all the cute animations and special effects that they did in their videos which obscured the fact that when they were playing they pretty much just stood there and played – no outrageous costumes (by rock standards, no fireworks, etc.). The Cars had plenty of material if they were inclined to play it but it was better consumed in well crafted 3 minute videos.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    Seeing Devo live was similar to what you say. They weren't bad but until this moment I'd practically forgotten that show.

    Just wondering, would the Pretenders be considered roughly similar to the Cars in terms of being hip and influential for that era?
  165. @Reg Cæsar

    How many seventies/ eighties bands have all their original members still living?
     
    Or together? The Seekers, a Melbourne folk group with monster hits in the '60s, are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the original Ramones, who are all gone. They maintained the same lineup for over 50 years, far longer than anybody else. (Not counting married duos.)

    Ocasek and that Boston-the-band guy came from Ohio, and the leads in Aerosmith and J Geils were from New York. The whole "Beantown sound" was imported. I don't think there has ever been a true Yankee rock star-- and I mean that as a compliment!

    The most influential Massachusetts native in the rock era has to be Dick Dale. He was Lebanese and Slav, and made his name in California.

    Billy Squier is about the closest I can think to a Yankee rock idol. But I think the Squier family was in New Jersey in colonial days.

    The whole “Beantown sound” was imported. I don’t think there has ever been a true Yankee rock star– and I mean that as a compliment!

    (Technically, Bettencourt did not arrive in Massachusetts from Portugal until he was four, but that hardly makes him a poseur from out of town….)

    I do concede, they are about the only ones, but their innovation of what they called “funky metal music” and its influence on others, along with their virtuosity makes asserting no rockstar has ever come from Boston like saying no rockstar has ever come from Tupelo….

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    That Portugal is England's oldest ally and the House of Avis was half-English does not qualify a native of Praia da Vitória as a Yankee.

    You'd think someone named "Autochthon" would be the first to understand that.
  166. @Bugg
    Saw the Cars in the late 1970s or early 1980s at Madison Square Garden. Simply the worst live act I can recall.Indifferent to the crowd, ran through their hits in workmanlike fashion, and didn't play but 80 minutes during times when nobody cared about stage union OT. So bands usually played 2 hours even if they didn't have that much material(and the Cars did not). Perhaps getting to the big time late in life made them jaded, but they played like they wanted to get off stage as soon as possible. May be to get with said Eastern Euro supermodels forthwith? RIP.

    First “real” concert unaccompanied by parents, 1981. As I recall Ocasek had on a widebrimmed hat and said maybe two words throughout the whole concert. I always thought the detachment was just part of their new wave mystique or something, or that he had serious stage fright. Or that maybe they knew “Shake it Up” was a crappy record. In any case, I like everything they did up until that record, and I’m still glad I got to see them.

  167. OT: I hear the NYT has done a Sterling Job and found new 40-year old X-files about Kavanaugh pushing Penis towards Ladies.

    I can’t take another shitshow.

    Maybe it it time to take care of anyone associated to the NYT to finally have peace and quiet. By “take care” I mean, serve them high-calorie cake until they die of clogged arteries.

    More people in need of high-calorie cake. I can even be a force-baked gaycake:

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I am a Democrat candidate currently polling very low in the polls. I hereby double down on the demands of the other Democrat candidates. I demand that Bret Kavanaugh be DOUBLE impeached, as well as Donald Trump, whoever was the Attorney General during the hearings (I forget who), the headmaster of Kavanaugh's shitty privileged private school and anyone else who has ever spoken a kind word about this horribly lying white guy who not only dick slaps women but women of color such as the brave Deborrrrrrrrah Rrrrrrramirezzzzzz, a true Borrrrrrrrrrrrriquena . I know that this was all considered during the hearings but now we are in the thick of an election campaign and this is a slow news day (if you put aside that half the oil capacity of Saudi Arabia is now up in smoke because their air defenses are managed by Arabs) so now is a good time to bring this up. Thank you very much.
  168. @Anonymous
    Two of the original five Cars are gone:
    Ric Ocasek – lead and backing vocals, rhythm guitar, keyboards (1976-1988, 2010-2011, 2018, died 2019)
    Elliot Easton – lead guitar, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018)
    Benjamin Orr – bass, backing and lead vocals (1976–1988; died 2000)
    David Robinson – drums, percussion, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018)
    Greg Hawkes – keyboards, guitars, backing vocals (1976–1988, 2010–2011, 2018), saxophone (1976-1979), bass (2010-2011)



    The Cars frontman Ric Ocasek found dead in Manhattan townhouse


    By Larry Celona and Jackie Salo

    September 15, 2019 | 8:10pm

    The Cars frontman Ric Ocasek found dead in Manhattan townhouse


    Ric Ocasek, the lead singer of iconic new wave rock band The Cars, was found dead in his Manhattan apartment on Sunday, law enforcement sources told The Post. He was 75 years old.

    Ocasek was discovered unconscious and unresponsive at around 4:14 p.m. inside his Gramercy Park pad by his estranged wife, Paulina Porizkova, sources said.

    He appeared to have died from natural causes, sources added.

    Ocasek and his seminal new wave band The Cars shot to fame with their self-titled hit album in the 1978, which included hits such as “My Best Friend’s Girl” and “Just What I Needed.”

    The singer reflected on his years in the band when he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame last year.

    “It’s certainly a wonderful feeling to be accepted by peers and you see the people that are in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, who gets inducted, it’s a positive feeling that you get,” Ocasek said in an interview with Rolling Stone.

    From 1978 to 1987, the band churned out six records — “five of which are good-to-great,” said Erik Adams, an AV Club music critic, in a 2018 article.

    “And then there are The Cars, the type of band that put out a perfect debut record, and then had the audacity to not pack it in after that,” the critic wrote.

    In 1984, the band received another notable accolade, winning MTV’s “Video of the Year” award for its hit song off its 5th album, “You Might Think.”

    After a long hiatus, the band reunited in 2011 and released an album called “Move Like This.” It was the band’s first, and only, album without late- bassist Benjamin Orr, who died in 2000.

    Ocasek had recently placed the home where he was found on the market after he and Porizkova announced their split in May 2018.

    The pair — who shared two children together — had been together for 28 years when they separated.
     
    https://pagesix.com/2019/09/15/the-cars-frontman-ric-ocasek-found-dead-in-manhattan-townhouse/

    Two of the original (Tom Petty) Heartbreakers are dead also. How many seventies/ eighties bands have all their original members still living?

    Kiss – all founders alive, but not together; retiring soon.

    The Police – all founders alive, not together.

    Rush – all founders alive, and together until they recently retired.

    Van Halen – all founders alive, not together.

    The Cure – all founders alive, not together.

    Genesis – all founders alive, not together.

    Actually, very many indeed rock bands who were big in the seventies and eighties have all their founding members still alive. Hell, it can even be said of Guns ‘n’ Roses – the poster children for self-destructive sex, drugs, and rock ‘n’ roll!

    More rockstars should retire, by the way; it’s far more dignified than becoming a parody of oneself. Paul Stanley, who had an amazing vocal range in his day, now warbles and rasps his way through shows; he should have retired sooner.

    Robert Plant has maintained his dignity by shifting to traditional folk and blues material (his roots, really, anyway); if he were still prancing around wailing, though, it would be embarrassing, and I reckon he knows this. His choice is acceptable, but most elderly rockers do not follow this example; Mick Jagger struts around like he is some young lion oozing sex appeal – it’s pathetic.

    Even Phil Collins, who’s never been pretentious whatsoever, is a shadow of himself: he sits on a stool and sings everything in a much lower key, unable to play drums any more at all. (Perhaps he’s forced to keep working to fend off his parasitic ex-wives?)

    Why have so few learned the lesson of fat Elvis?

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Oops. John Rutsey is dead.

    I reckon the point stands, though....

    (I suppose the very fact that I forgot earlier about his playing on Rush and that I did not know he had died either makes me callous or him unremarkable....)
  169. @Peter Akuleyev
    Yes, Pavlina was Czech. Polish women are often attractive but not as attractive as Czechs, who, per capita, must produce the most stunning women in the world.

    Re: Czechs produce the most stunning women in the world

    Ukrainians would disagree with you. I’ve never seen as many
    symmetric faces as among the Ukrainian girls. Plus, unlike
    their male counterparts, they smile a lot which adds to their
    attractiveness. Another reason why American women, with
    their resting bitch faces, are no longer attractive. Make America
    Beautiful Again – bring back the American women from the
    1950s and ‘60s, and their beautiful smiles. Even many Manson
    girls were reasonably attractive, e.g., Leslie van Houten.

  170. @Steve Sailer
    Bowie eventually aged into handsomeness, but the classic rock star look tended to be symmetrical but unusual: too delicate or too alien or too gaunt or too something to be movie star handsome: e.g., Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith. Johnny Depp is a rare movie star who also looks like a rock star. Maybe Val Kilmer too.

    Generally, square-jawed Tom Cruise handsomeness isn't what rock stars have. Rock stars typically have high cheekbones and small jaws.

    In general, rock stars tend to be heterosexuals with some effeminate traits, such as dancing ability and loving the crowd's adoration. E.g., Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn't really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That's his dad's character he's playing. Bruce admits he's more of a delicate artsy type.

    Another interesting thread is the changing masculinity of rock stars as you moved from the 1970s to 1980s. I was just a kid in the 70s, but looking at pictures of bands from the 70s, they seemed much more masculine (and, frankly, hairier) compared to 80s bands. (Queen being an obvious exception.)

    Even the 80s heavy metal bands were more effeminate compared to their 70s counter-parts. Actually, maybe effeminate isn’t quite the right word. The 80s saw a slew of soy-boy bands, likely because college was becoming the main breeding ground of bands as well as how they made a name for themselves on tour. A band such as REM just screams college guys singing songs that college kids would like.

    Thankfully, The Replacements saved the day.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    Let's be honest most first people's first The Replacements was either I'll Be You or Merry Go Round. I only listened to College Rock that made it onto mainstream rock radio in high school and several years after.
    , @Feryl

    Another interesting thread is the changing masculinity of rock stars as you moved from the 1970s to 1980s. I was just a kid in the 70s, but looking at pictures of bands from the 70s, they seemed much more masculine (and, frankly, hairier) compared to 80s bands. (Queen being an obvious exception.)
     
    The 1980's bands, on average, were quite a bit younger than the 70's ones. You see, 70's music stars were often born in the early-mid 1940's. Whereas many 80's bands were often born in the late 50's and early 60's (Micheal Jackson as a solo artist, Prince, Motley Crue, Metallica etc. were all in their early-mid 20's when they released their first successful albums). Queen in the 1980's looked more masculine because they got older . And those 1970's beards and shaggy hair cuts also make you look old, whereas 1980's New Wave and heavy metal bands were typically clean shaven with more stylish hair cuts.

    I still think that the 1970's were an ugly Superfund site of a decade. The cars, the fashion (polyester, ridiculous collars, feathered bowl cuts and proto-mullets), the excessive drinking and drug use, the high abortion rates, women entering the work force in large numbers for the first time and delaying marriage, etc.
  171. You’ll note from his age that Ocasek didn’t hit it big until his mid-30s

    Which is why he made it to nearly median lifespan. He missed out on at least 10 years of self-destructive alcohol and drug use.

  172. Apropos of nothing, Ocasek means “little tail” in Czech.

  173. Sad to see all these aging rockers go. Eddie Money and now Rick Ocasek. Recall MTV with fondness in the 1980s. This was the pre-rapper era when band members didn’t regularly shoot each other and fill the airwaves with ear-splitting obscenities and spread gangster culture across society. Always wondered why MTV went hard for Rap music and ditched regular Rock-and-Roll. They totally changed music and society for the worse, in my opinion.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    It wasn't just rap; grunge rock and speed metal (Metallica and Megadeth released their best selling albums in 1991 and 1992) also were big in the early 90's. And I assume you are too old to remember how tastes changed again, in the late 90's, when pop punk, ska, boy bands, and bubble gum pop (Britney Spears and Xtina Aguilera) became really popular and youth crime rates fell dramatically.

    The old-timers out there need to understand that the early 90's were an incredibly nihilistic time period for pop culture, that hasn't been repeated, fortunately.
  174. Never a big fan, but The Cars debuted right around when I was getting into music (late 70s) and stayed relevant throughout my high school years (83-87). Even after, their songs were/are played on 80s stations.

    Oddly enough, Ocasek’s best songs IMO are from his solo work (Something To Grab For, Emotion In Motion). But his solo abums did poorly compared to his hits with The Cars.

    Seems strange that not too long ago, white music/groups dominated the airwaves with only an occasional Michael Jackson or Cool & The Gang song to break things up.

  175. Re: Supermodels from Central Europe

    The Polish supermodel Anja Rubik, 36, has little competition in this category.
    She debuted in Paris at 16. For many years she was Karl Lagerfeld’s personal
    favorite. She ended up on the cover of practically every fashion magazine in the world.
    In 2011 she was described as the world’s most-in-demand model. And, of course,
    now she is very rich.

    Just for giggles, look up Alexa Luczak, 5’9” – a runway model born and raised
    in Poland. Eerily she looks like a Japanese woman trying to look western. No
    wonder she is a very popular in Japan where she has lived since her late teens,
    and is fluent in Japanese.

    • Replies: @ken
    Alexa Luczak- I'm guessing some Tatar genes.
  176. Mrs. O (the Polish model Paulina Porizkova, one of the very first of the now never-ending number of beautiful Slavic girls to emerge from Eastern Europe)

    It explains why Slavs have become the bêtes noires of the social justice troll set. Slavs are beautiful Christian white people with fabulous hair who owe no colonial or slavery debt to the dark races. Not only that, they escaped slavery at the same time as American blacks but have accomplished so much more, including the defeat of Nazi Germany.

  177. I was 10 or 11 when this song came out. I remember not liking the music of the 80s because my Boomer parents were stuck on their 70s music and so thats what they played in the house. I regret not enjoying the 80s stuff more at the time because I look back longingly at these songs now.

  178. I was born early in 1960 so, perhaps unavoidably, I distrusted and dismissed all the punks and new-wave types loosed upon the musical landscape in the ’77-’81 period (my loyalty was to the 60s holdovers and the longhairs of the early/mid 70s). But I noticed something that, at the time, justified my suspicions: nearly all of those two-chord wonders the music press relentlessly rammed down our throats in those Punk Years tended to be in their 30s, although they were pawned off as the authentic voice of youth as opposed to the supposed Old Farts (whom they were mostly, and quietly, older than).

    Still a little shocked at Ocasek’s passing – and let me say this in his favor: unlike the sneering safety-pin types (generally phonies to a man), the Cars did not pretend to be the antidote to chart-topping rock n roll like so many of their contemporaries; they very much wanted to be on the radio and selling out big venues. Further to their credit, their debut album was and is a classic (and the followup, CANDY-O, was nearly as good). RIP.

  179. @The Last Real Calvinist

    You know, I might not have believed in “super-models” in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I’d never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7’8 walked in the door and you were like, “Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7’8 before and I didn’t know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was.”

     

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I'd admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful -- absolutely mesmerizing.

    Of course, tastes, vary, but people who repeat (and pretend to believe) the canard 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' need to come face to face with someone who possesses that degree of almost unearthly comeliness. There's no arguing it doesn't exist when you've seen it.

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I’d admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful — absolutely mesmerizing.

    People tend to underestimate just how stunning the “beauty elite ” (models, film stars, etc) really are. I’ve often theorized that it’s a problem of context. Look at photos of Paulina Porizkova in a copy of the SI Swimsuit issue, and you’re seeing her in the context of other stunning women. Sure, she might be more beautiful than the rest, but it’s a matter of being a 9.9 vs a 9.5. Her beauty flattens out, as it were.But place her in a real world setting like the post office or the DMV, and the Everest-esque nature of her good looks becomes apparent.

  180. @Dave Pinsen
    Bowie probably hit peak handsomeness in his mid-fifties. Here he is at 55.

    https://youtu.be/3gk1DcFz-Uc

    Another rock star who fits the phenotype you describe here - and looks like a somewhat handsomer Ric Ocasek - is Richard Ashcroft.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/1173044347589275648?s=21

    The awfullest tale of an artist getting ripped off of his song writing royalties by his manager is the case of John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival and Saul Zantz. It is true, that Fogerty willingly signed away his royalties in a fit of anger. Fogerty is a hot head. There was tension in Creedence at the time and he didn’t want to work with his bandmates anymore but Creedence had a few albums left that they were committed to record for Fantasy records. Instead of consulting a lawyer and finding away around the problem Fogerty signed away ALL of his songwriting royalties to get out of the record deal. Let’s sit back and think. Fogerty signed away Proud Mary, Bad Moon Rising, Green River, Fortunate Son, Travelin Band, Who’ll Stop the Rain, Up Around the Bend, Have You ever seen the Rain, Hey Tonight, Sweet Hitchhiker…. This catalogue has been played continuously from 1969 up untill the present day. Easily, tens of millions of songwriting royalties never landed in Fogerty’s pocket because of this impulsive act. It seems to me the deal should have been voided as unconscionable.

    Anyway, there is a somewhat satisfactory ending to the tale. Around 10 years ago, some hedge fund mogul who was a big fan of Creedence, bought the songwriting catalogue from Zantz’s estate and sold them to Fogerty on very favorable terms. Today, John Fogerty owns all of his songwriting royalties.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    Fogerty isn't just a hothead, he's probably a good definition of an idiot-savant. Very easily led by the nose to many nutcase conclusions, issues poorly thought-out arguements, but his good Irish looks and wonderful musical talents cover for him.

    Actually, he reminds me of Fredo Cuomo in terms of looks, except Fredo has no discernible talent besides being Andrews' brother.

    Both are really a couple of himbos, but Fogerty at least brings his music to the party.
  181. OT, though relevant to the Scramble for Europe posts:

    What’s Behind the Deadly Violence in South Africa?
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/16/opinion/south-africa-xenophobia-attacks.html

    This is not irrational violence or a spontaneous popular revolt. Nor is it simply “criminality,” as South Africa’s political leaders repeatedly claim. Rather, it is an act rooted in the failures of South Africa’s transformation. Continuing white privilege, world-leading levels of inequality and unemployment play a role. So too do erratic policing, cowardly political leaders and a disillusioned population.

    (i) this is … rational violence? irrational non-violence?
    (ii) south africans, mozambicans, and nigerians fighting each other … because of white privilege?

    South Africa has taught the world many lessons about forgiveness and reconciliation. As violent anti-immigrant rhetoric and policies ripple through Europe, the United States and elsewhere, perhaps it can teach the world another lesson — about how local hatreds emerge, and how they can be stopped.

    yeah … no.

  182. @R.G. Camara
    The great line about Mick Jagger I heard was that "Mick Jagger looks like Don Knotts." It has always stuck with me.

    There have been vague attempts by some to paint the always-on-the-prowl Jagger as "handsome" or "pretty" but it's all just old arty camera shots and his publicists working hard for him.

    Mick Jagger is unusual looking, interesting to look at, attractive in a strange way to the eyes of both men and women, but he is in no way handsome.

    Here is a photo of Mick with his squeeze of the time, Marianne Faithful sitting with Alain Delon, the classically handsome French actor. Mick – with his skinny physique, rock and roll, unkempt clothes – looks like a court jester or fool compared to the very handsome and perfectly coiffed and clothed Delon. I wonder if this photo grated on Mick.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    Here is a photo of Mick with his squeeze of the time, Marianne Faithful sitting with Alain Delon, the classically handsome French actor. Mick – with his skinny physique, rock and roll, unkempt clothes – looks like a court jester or fool compared to the very handsome and perfectly coiffed and clothed Delon. I wonder if this photo grated on Mick.

     

    That little bastard Mick Jagger is probably thinking about real estate prices like the upper middle class turd he always was. I don't care if he is now worth 400 million dollars or pounds or whatever, he is the eternal upper middle class striver limey turd bastard.

    Bowie loved loot too, but he had a laugh about it. Bowie Bonds!
    , @R.G. Camara
    Mick figured out very early on that if you were the lead singer of a hit rock and roll band you could bang anything you want. And then he met other rock and rollers and celebrities and realized most were pussies, so if he just acted with a modicum of confidence and sexual forwardness he could also steal their hot girlfriends.

    Mick's very cagey and intelligent, and has been living this gimmick since the start. Hence why he gives off such sexual energy----because he's one of the few pop musicians to both be a hit musician and actually behaves off stage as if he actually has testosterone.

    True story: Mick once stole Eric Clapton's hot model girlfriend right in front of him while the pussy Clapton was openly begging Mick not to do it like an abject servant to his master, and then rolled over when she went with Mick.

    Oh, and who was that slutty model? Carla Bruni, who went on to be the first lady of France, married to Nicolas Sarkozy.
    , @donvonburg

    Mick Jagger is unusual looking, interesting to look at, attractive in a strange way to the eyes of both men and women, but he is in no way handsome.
     
    Females beg to differ. They find him manly in an accessible and nonthreatening way.
  183. @Anon 2
    Re: Supermodels from Central Europe

    The Polish supermodel Anja Rubik, 36, has little competition in this category.
    She debuted in Paris at 16. For many years she was Karl Lagerfeld’s personal
    favorite. She ended up on the cover of practically every fashion magazine in the world.
    In 2011 she was described as the world’s most-in-demand model. And, of course,
    now she is very rich.

    Just for giggles, look up Alexa Luczak, 5’9” - a runway model born and raised
    in Poland. Eerily she looks like a Japanese woman trying to look western. No
    wonder she is a very popular in Japan where she has lived since her late teens,
    and is fluent in Japanese.

    Alexa Luczak- I’m guessing some Tatar genes.

  184. The 2005 album Substitution Mass Confusion is a various-artists compilation of Cars covers. Anyone else remember Damone?

  185. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    I remember seeing Molly Ringwald in NYC in the mid 80’s. She was absolutely luminous. Strangely so. On the other hand, I also saw Wallace Shawn around the same time. Not luminous at all.

  186. @Jack D
    The Cars were an MTV act. Seeing them live was bound to be disappointing because they couldn't do all the cute animations and special effects that they did in their videos which obscured the fact that when they were playing they pretty much just stood there and played - no outrageous costumes (by rock standards, no fireworks, etc.). The Cars had plenty of material if they were inclined to play it but it was better consumed in well crafted 3 minute videos.

    Seeing Devo live was similar to what you say. They weren’t bad but until this moment I’d practically forgotten that show.

    Just wondering, would the Pretenders be considered roughly similar to the Cars in terms of being hip and influential for that era?

    • Replies: @Feryl
    A lot of "alternative" bands are pretty idiosyncratic to begin with (and bands like the Cars and Devo basically were the first alternative rock groups). More populist minded bands often got their start by earning a reputation for being an exciting live band. "Alternative" type bands are, by definition, often estranged from popular sensibilities so it's no surprise that they don't necessarily understand how to be more appealing as live performers. I hear that even Soundgarden was rather shaky as a live band, even though their studio records seemed pretty confident as far as this sort of band goes.
  187. @EK
    Czech, not Polish.

    Yes, she was Czech, but raised in Sweden, IIRC, due to a parental split. “The thinking man’s Supermodel,” she wrote books, had children, and stayed married to Ric.

  188. @Ganderson
    RIP Ric. You gave hope to all us ugly guys that we could indeed snag a hottie.

    It is my belief that the Fountains of Wayne song Stacy’s Mom is an homage to My Best Friend’s Girl.

    My favorite Cars number is You’re All I’ve Got Tonight/ Bye Bye Love

    Bye Bye Love was a bit like the crystal left over from the Fortress of Solitude after Superman destroyed it. When someone played that song on the radio after years of change and I had destroyed my own fortress of solitude, it helped me rebuild it.

  189. @donvonburg
    The sound and the appearance of electric guitars in terms of color, outline, shape, etc. are in no way related. And to evaluate a guitar for playability you need to be pretty close.

    Certain design features like the type and placement of pickups, can give a clue, but humbuckers can have coil splits or taps.

    Guitar players all DO play certain guitars for looks, but not as the uninitiated would see it. Fans have certain expectations of what a certain kind of guitar does or should be used for and that's what many, maybe most, players will select.

    For example, people associate Telecasters with a certain school of virtuosity because Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton, etc. were "masters of the Telecaster". Working man Bruce Springsteen, riffmaster Keith Richards, and rock chick extraordinaire Chrissie Hynde all play Teles so that's what someone wanting to convey that image will pick even though in the studio they might have used a 335 Gibson, a Strat or a PRS on the record. Same is true with Les Pauls, or, well, anything.

    With acoustic guitars form follows function more, but still people pick them for looks and association more than anything else. Martins, in particular, are the most overrated guitars out there in my experience. Most made between the early seventies and early 2000s are mediocre guitars and they all tend to need structural work-neck resets, repaired top cracks from pickguard shrinkage, fingerboard replacements or back shaving-as time goes on. A high end ¥amaha or Takamine is usually a better sounding guitar that will need less work.

    The two companies that can really manufacture guitars that consistently play well out of the box and hold up are Taylor and PRS. Gibson, Fender, Martin, and Rickenbacker are all legacy messes with no consistency and widely varying quality. Ricks are somewhat consistent, but they are also beset with issues that make them a niche product-either you love them or you hate them.(I hate them.) Gibson is the worst-they have made some good guitars and a lot of turds, some of which there is no economic fix for, the work would exceed the value of the instrument. Fenders due to their modular construction you usually can get into shape with skilled neck and pocket work. Martins are all fixable, but you know you'll have to do it again in twenty years, and there are a lot of judgment calls to be made. Bluegrassers who string them with telephone cables and have the braces shaved for that "cannon" sound are the bane of any repairman. I hate bluegrassers from an instrument standpoint, there is no pleasing them because they want something that was a myth from the beginning.

    From that standpoint then Ocasek was completely rational.

    Springsteen used to play an Esquire, which was a poor man’s Tele back in the day as it only had one pickup. I have t paid attention in years, so no idea what he plays now, could be a celestial harp for all I care.

  190. @ScarletNumber

    Linda Carter [sic] ... Robert Altman hit the jackpot.
     
    So we're clear, Lynda Carter isn't married to the film director.

    So we’re clear, Lynda Carter isn’t married to the film director.

    True. In a bizarre coincidence, there is more than one person named Robert Altman in the world. She’s married to the BCCI lawyer. He was pretty big news circa 1991-92. He did the near-impossible: get charged federally, refuse to plea bargain, then be acquitted of all charges.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1984/10/08/robert-altman-joins-ranks-of-super-lawyers/8dedd88b-1138-4c79-8718-e9d19710bd75/

    She’s also not married to this guy:

    http://www.altmanlawoffices.com/our-attorneys/robert-bob-altman/

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    BCCI was a huge international scandal that got quickly hushed up probably because so many important people were involved. No one got punished. Shocking, I know.
  191. @Intelligent Dasein
    I once saw Arnold Schwarzenegger doing a spot with the guys from one of those NFL shows---that would be Howie Long and Cris Collinsworth and whoever the hell the other two were---and he looked like a midget. Even the lanky Collinsworth had broader shoulders and thinker limbs than Arnold, and Howie positively dominated him.

    Howie Long is listed at 6'5", but I don't believe it. If you watch him and Kevin Costner together in 3000 Miles to Graceland, they are just about the same height and Kevin Costner is a generous 6'3''.

    So if Howie Long is 6'4" at most, then Arnie is stretching his last vertebrae to make it to 6'0" based on the evidence I've seen.

    Now ask me about the time I body-guarded Alice Cooper. It's a good story.

    I’ll bite, what about the time you bodyguarded Alice Cooper?

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    I was in high school, and it was about this same September/October time of year. I got an after school job working security at one of the big,professionally produced haunted houses. Alice Cooper apparently had a stake in the venture and one night he appeared in person to sign autographs and do a promotional. As luck would have it, as we security personnel were suiting up and getting our assignments, the security boss pointed at me and said "You're on Alice." I intercepted him in the vestibule, ushered him to his signing table, and stood right by his side for several hours holding back his adoring fans until their appointed time. This is my lame claim to fame

    The point which occasioned this story is that he is an incredibly small man. I mean tiny. I mean you could probably pick him up with one arm and throw him over your shoulder. I was a bit taken aback by just how small he really was.

    And you know, I've never thought about this before, but looking back on it all now, I'm a little offended that he never asked to meet me or thank me or even shake my hand. I was a kid making 10 bucks an hour, putting my body on the line to guard a superstar. I never heard that he met or spoke with any of the staff. That's kind of rude if you ask me.
  192. @Intelligent Dasein
    I once saw Arnold Schwarzenegger doing a spot with the guys from one of those NFL shows---that would be Howie Long and Cris Collinsworth and whoever the hell the other two were---and he looked like a midget. Even the lanky Collinsworth had broader shoulders and thinker limbs than Arnold, and Howie positively dominated him.

    Howie Long is listed at 6'5", but I don't believe it. If you watch him and Kevin Costner together in 3000 Miles to Graceland, they are just about the same height and Kevin Costner is a generous 6'3''.

    So if Howie Long is 6'4" at most, then Arnie is stretching his last vertebrae to make it to 6'0" based on the evidence I've seen.

    Now ask me about the time I body-guarded Alice Cooper. It's a good story.

    Saw and walked past Arnie last year. He might be 5’11”, at best, in his old age. Maybe pushed 6′ in his prime. And he was muscular, but not exceptionally wide like many of the similarly heighted pro football players you see. Guys that are six foot and can truly carry 250lbs of muscle are as unique as seven footers. I met DE Dwight freeney once and you could’ve hid my entire refrigerator behind him.

  193. @Hhsiii
    RIP.

    The riff in Best Friend’s Girl is ripped from the Beatles’ I Will. Similarly the riff in Costello’s Two Little Hitlers is from Rebel Rebel.

    I saw Ocasek and Porsikova at an upscale pan-American foodie joint in Gramercy 25 years ago. Another tall model on his other arm. He was like 6’5” 140 pounds.

    Similarly the riff in Costello’s Two Little Hitlers is from Rebel Rebel.

    Did Elvis and his buddy Nick Lowe have a bet on who would write the better Hitler song?

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    Todd Rundgren did a cover version of EC's Two Little Hitlers:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4zJCaO9v5E
    , @GSR
    Haha......Nick & Elvis, probably my two faves.

    Elvis' "smartness" and Nick's every man take on life.

    Early EC promotion featured some photos, billboards, etc. that came a little close to AH's posters from early 1930's Germany. I always thought I was one of the few who picked up on that. Hahahahaha
    , @Hhsiii
    I thought that. Not just Hitler, but Little Hitler.

    Edmunds/Rockpile’s version of Girls Talk is better than EC’s, vice versa for EC’s What’s So Funny ‘Bout etc over Nick’s original.
  194. @Charon
    May I remind you that Lyle Lovett snagged Julia Roberts. Yeah yeah, not really rock, but still.

    Lyle Lovett might be one of the nicest people I’ve ever met.

  195. The major newsmedia have been crazy since 2016 but this weekend saw an abnormal burst of extra craziness worthy of the full moon on Friday the 13th. Here is a summary for those who don’t like Breitbart (linked article is boomerish and over-written but meaty):
    https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2019/09/16/nolte-last-weeks-fake-news-epidemic-led-by-cnn-politico-new-york-times/
    Kavanaugh a molester! Except the witness disagrees, and we went through this already.
    Trump responsible for CIA screwup in — of course — Russia! But this was during the Obama administration, and the extent of Trump’s KGB duties is to convince people to have John Brennan committed, not to interfere in operations.
    Trump forces government planes to use a certain airport near one of his properties — except that preferring that airport is an Obama administration policy left in place.
    The major media repeated debunked defamatory lies from various incidents years ago. The main people doing this are Democratic party operatives who got media jobs and are now calling themselves journalists. These lies were simply repeated without new data or reference to their debunking. As a result of this defamation a certain Nuyorican called for a certain beer enthusiast to be impeached, even though the media source she was reacting to had caught its mistake and retracted the story.

  196. @Pentheus
    For the record:

    The Cars had TWO lead singers. Benjamin Orr was the lead singer, in fact, on many of their most popular songs -- Just What I Needed, Let's Go, Drive; also Moving in Stereo, You're All I've Got Tonight, Bye Bye Love, It's All I Can Do.

    in contrast to Ocasek's famed ugliness and quirky "New Wave" vocal style, Orr was Jim Morrison-level handsome and had a good traditional rock voice, including a sensuous croon. "Drive" would not be the huge beloved hit that it is, had the lead singer been Ocasek. Ocasek, like Pete Townsend, was smart enough to know he needed someone else who could sing his songs better to be commercially successful.

    Interestingly, however, Ric Ocasek was always "the focal point" and Orr is almost unknown to the general public.

    Orr did not marry a supermodel. He had a bunch of kids with a bunch of women.

    Here is thorough background about The Cars:
    https://rockportraits.wordpress.com/2014/09/25/the-cars/

    Fun fact: Only the Cars' drummer, David Robinson, was actually from the Boston area.

    Oddly enough, Ocasek and Orr were buddies and band mates for a long time before the Cars even.

    You rarely see (or at least it’s my observation) young women of vastly different comeliness being friends. I guess that rule doesn’t apply as much to males.

  197. Spookiest looking high talent white rock (and country) star? I’m going with Claude Russell Bridges

  198. He’s right that whites are ultimately responsible. Children cannot be responsible and the whites refuse to embrace their duty as the local adults.

  199. @Steve Sailer
    The one time I walked past Tom Hanks was about 18 years ago at the L.A. auto show, which is a very mass market, extremely crowded event. He had a baseball cap pulled down low over his eyes and was radiating a general vibe of not being interesting to look at, which he was adept at doing. People would walk right past him, then react after he was past. It's hard to describe, but he was doing it. It's kind of the opposite of Susan Strasberg's story of walking anonymously down the street with Marilyn Monroe and Marilyn tells her "watch this" and transforms herself on the spot into Marilyn Monroe and causes a sensation.

    The best pictures of Marilyn Monroe I have seen are the ones where she is lifting weights or shooting an arrow with a bow.

    She looked good in those pool pictures too, but she’s trying to be an extra scoop of Marilyn in those photos and she’s nude. The picture of her in that translucent dress ain’t too shabby.

    Tom Hanks is a baby boomer actor who gets on my nerves the older I get. Jeff Bridges is a baby boomer actor who doesn’t irritate me too much.

    Hanks was OKAY in Gump!

    The first time I saw Trump was at a small political event in April of 2015 before he really jumped in the polls. Trump is the size of a retired linebacker and he has a good presence. Trump kept repeating things twice, like he was trying out lines for a movie or political slogans.

    I saw a fine looking lady in a nice shiny dress at the Trump event, and she caught everybody’s eye. When Trump finished up his pitch the good looking lady put a sash on — it turned out she was a past beauty pageant winner or the current beauty pageant winner of something and she eagerly rushed over to Trump to say hello. Trump owning the rights to that beauty pageant and Trump having Sinclair and the tabloids on his side helped tremendously — of course that TV show helped too!

    Who could forget all the times Trump’s pals in the tabloids had Hillary Clinton looking drunk or worse in big pictures at the checkout line magazine racks?

  200. @Altai
    I discovered a sister term to 'caucasity', 'white-ality'.

    The last time I seriously intended to skedaddle was in March 2014, when I went to New York for a working vacation. I reconnected with friends and family and did several readings. Hanging with folk I’ve known all my life and luxuriating in the warm embrace of an environment where I wasn’t incongruous filled me with a renewed sense of belonging. And, though my former hometown was gentrified to within an inch of being indistinguishable, it burst at the seams with vitality (though a bit too much “white-ality”). Bistros and bookstores had replaced barbershops and bodegas, and that industrious, chichi, upwardly mobile part of me saw plenty of opportunities to prosper. That had cinched it for me. I was putting together an exit strategy and a business plan on the plane back to Japan.
     
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2018/12/19/our-lives/2018-year-japan-began-listen/#.XX7GVWYo9PY

    This guys whole column series 'Black Eye' is amazing fodder. There is so much but I'll limit to just one other excerpt.

    I expected Obama’s victory over there to result in changing attitudes over here. I expected Obama’s coup to be the mother lode of good vibrations that would reverberate wherever black people dwell. I knew it would inform black youth that their potential is unlimited, and that’s a beautiful thing, but was it powerful enough to have an impact on the Japanese assessment of “blackness” and to inspire some here to critically rethink the foul and/or ignorant notions that remain pervasive? Sad to report, I perceived not a smidgen of change. It’s like black excellence is viewed as an exception to the natural state of blackness.
     

    White-ality rimes with vitality.

  201. @Daniel H
    Mick Jagger is unusual looking, interesting to look at, attractive in a strange way to the eyes of both men and women, but he is in no way handsome.

    Here is a photo of Mick with his squeeze of the time, Marianne Faithful sitting with Alain Delon, the classically handsome French actor. Mick - with his skinny physique, rock and roll, unkempt clothes - looks like a court jester or fool compared to the very handsome and perfectly coiffed and clothed Delon. I wonder if this photo grated on Mick.

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2508/8586/t/6/assets/description_image_marianne-faithfull.jpg?14243084856038419497

    Here is a photo of Mick with his squeeze of the time, Marianne Faithful sitting with Alain Delon, the classically handsome French actor. Mick – with his skinny physique, rock and roll, unkempt clothes – looks like a court jester or fool compared to the very handsome and perfectly coiffed and clothed Delon. I wonder if this photo grated on Mick.

    That little bastard Mick Jagger is probably thinking about real estate prices like the upper middle class turd he always was. I don’t care if he is now worth 400 million dollars or pounds or whatever, he is the eternal upper middle class striver limey turd bastard.

    Bowie loved loot too, but he had a laugh about it. Bowie Bonds!

  202. @Autochthon
    Kiss – all founders alive, but not together; retiring soon.

    The Police – all founders alive, not together.

    Rush – all founders alive, and together until they recently retired.

    Van Halen – all founders alive, not together.

    The Cure – all founders alive, not together.

    Genesis – all founders alive, not together.

    Actually, very many indeed rock bands who were big in the seventies and eighties have all their founding members still alive. Hell, it can even be said of Guns 'n' Roses – the poster children for self-destructive sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll!

    More rockstars should retire, by the way; it's far more dignified than becoming a parody of oneself. Paul Stanley, who had an amazing vocal range in his day, now warbles and rasps his way through shows; he should have retired sooner.

    Robert Plant has maintained his dignity by shifting to traditional folk and blues material (his roots, really, anyway); if he were still prancing around wailing, though, it would be embarrassing, and I reckon he knows this. His choice is acceptable, but most elderly rockers do not follow this example; Mick Jagger struts around like he is some young lion oozing sex appeal – it's pathetic.

    Even Phil Collins, who's never been pretentious whatsoever, is a shadow of himself: he sits on a stool and sings everything in a much lower key, unable to play drums any more at all. (Perhaps he's forced to keep working to fend off his parasitic ex-wives?)

    Why have so few learned the lesson of fat Elvis?

    Oops. John Rutsey is dead.

    I reckon the point stands, though….

    (I suppose the very fact that I forgot earlier about his playing on Rush and that I did not know he had died either makes me callous or him unremarkable….)

  203. @Autochthon

    The whole “Beantown sound” was imported. I don’t think there has ever been a true Yankee rock star– and I mean that as a compliment!
     
    https://youtu.be/IqP76XWHQI0

    (Technically, Bettencourt did not arrive in Massachusetts from Portugal until he was four, but that hardly makes him a poseur from out of town....)

    I do concede, they are about the only ones, but their innovation of what they called "funky metal music" and its influence on others, along with their virtuosity makes asserting no rockstar has ever come from Boston like saying no rockstar has ever come from Tupelo....

    That Portugal is England’s oldest ally and the House of Avis was half-English does not qualify a native of Praia da Vitória as a Yankee.

    You’d think someone named “Autochthon” would be the first to understand that.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    I reckon your argument is not far from one that the Van Halen brothers are Dutch, so their band cannot claim to bolster the idea Los Angeles has produced remarkable rock musicians.

    Metallica are likewise poseurs for claiming an association with San Francisco, because Ulrich was born in Denmark.

    (And John McCain was a Panamanian!)

    This thinking conflates two issues with a nuanced difference: whether a band whose members all grew up in Metropolis and got their start there are a Metropolitan band, and whether an immigrant is or is not, strictly speaking, a native of Metropolis.

    I take your point, but I think it is not meaningful in the context of whether New England ever produced any talented rockstars.

    Besides, even conceding your point leaves Gary Cherone, Patrick Badger, and Mike Mangini as ... what? Chopped liver?

    I was amazed to see, when investigating your original point, that all the bands I thought of as being out of Boston – the ones you'd already mentioned, but also the likes of 'Til Tuesday, etc. were indeed transplants.

    Except Extreme. Three quarters of them, at least; though, arguably, not the single most talented (Mangini having left the band and not having been a founder anyway – though he deserves mention in his own right.)

  204. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    I saw Steve Van Zandt at the Minetta Tavern (owned by the same guy who owns Balthazar) in Manhattan a year or two after the Sopranos went off the air. No one bothered him.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Van Zandt is one of the few celebrities who looks like he could respond to harassment with undocumented dentistry even as an old man.
  205. @ScarletNumber
    Money wasn't a cop per se, but rather a clerk/typist for the NYPD.

    Makes sense. He moved to Los Angeles at 19. I don’t think there are many 19 year old cops in the NYPD or anywhere else in America. Most usually have a couple of years of military or college under their belt before the enter the academy.

  206. @The Last Real Calvinist

    You know, I might not have believed in “super-models” in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I’d never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7’8 walked in the door and you were like, “Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7’8 before and I didn’t know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was.”

     

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I'd admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful -- absolutely mesmerizing.

    Of course, tastes, vary, but people who repeat (and pretend to believe) the canard 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' need to come face to face with someone who possesses that degree of almost unearthly comeliness. There's no arguing it doesn't exist when you've seen it.

    I once read about a study where they showed pictures of European women to European men and also to male South African Bushmen, and asked both groups to select the most attractive. They did the reverse as well, showing pictures of Bushman women to both groups of men. (Neither group was asked to compare European women with Bushman women).

    The result was agreement on all sides. Both groups picked out the same European women as most attractive, and both groups picked out the same Bushman women. This suggests that there is something intrinsic and universal about female beauty, and that it is not all in the eye of the beholder or socially constructed.

  207. @Anon
    And Cindy Crawford's husband might be a handsome billionaire married to Cindy Crawford but I had to teach him how to get into the restroom at In-N-Out. Due to all the bums it has a code lock on it but he was just standing by the door thinking it was occupied.

    So I got that going for me, which is nice.

    Isn’t the Westwood In-N-Out right across the street from UCLA’s campus? It seems like the authorities in Westwood would encourage the bums to move down the road to Santa Monica.

    • Replies: @Alden
    Westwood and West Los Angeles is full of black homeless. Most claim to be veterans en route to the multitude of services at the huge Veterans Administration facility just across the freeway from the UCLA campus.

    VA facilities draw deranged derelict blacks from hundreds of miles around. What is it about the military that turns black veterans into deranged derelicts? They aren’t in combat or anything resembling useful work. How does 3 or 4 years of theft, selling of stolen goods doing drugs smoking weed, attempting to and raping the women and do nothing no show jobs turn black military men into deranged derelicts?

    Or maybe they were already deranged derelicts when they enlisted. Scum and dregs.
    , @Autochthon
    I think it's just the opposite: the Beautiful People in Malibu and Santa Monica are foisting their detritus on Westwood. (You think college students have more influence in these matters than do the likes of Larry Ellison and Rob Reiner? (Their spawn go to Stanford, Harvard, and such, not lowly UCLA!).

    https://youtu.be/2rQj7ouLeqg
  208. @black sea
    I once told a Czech banker who had lived in various European cities that she was a gypsy, i.e. she had moved around a lot.

    She informed me rather evenly that this was the worst thing that you could call a Czech person.

    She informed me rather evenly that this was the worst thing that you could call a Czech person.

    The Finnish term for them– and they have been in Finland for generations– is mustalaista.

    laista is the plural form of –lainen, the generic suffix for nationalities. Musta is black.

    The weirdest thing I ever saw in Scandinavia was an old, traditionally-dressed Gypsy matron, accompanied by a relative or two, walking down the aisle of a crowded Swedish train yelling “Tukholma? Tukholma?!” She wanted to know if they were headed to Stockholm.

    Almost any rudimentally educated Finn would know how to say Stockholm in Swedish, and say it that way in Sweden. (Quietly.) The city’s Finnish name would be the butt of jokes in Sweden.

    A Gypsy wouldn’t know, or more likely wouldn’t care.

  209. @peterike

    Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn’t really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That’s his dad’s character he’s playing. Bruce admits he’s more of a delicate artsy type.
     
    In other words, a phony and a class traitor. But, one must admit, a brilliant role player. Probably the best con man in musical history and a stone-cold great songwriter, possibly the best rock song writer ever.

    This is why Bruce ended up being a fey Leftist squish rather than the lunch-box Trump supporter he should be. The best that can be said of him is that he may have truly empathized with the plight of the white working class. But then he's too stupid to realize the politics he supports is a knife blade aimed right at the heart of the people he came from.

    Well to be expected though. Working class dads did not bring up their children to follow them to a factory job. Like all parents they wanted better for their kids but you are spot on about his politics not matching his stage persona. That said keep in mind that not all working class = conservative. Many have bought into big government handouts. Democrat politicians rule most of our cities and many working class jobs are closed shop union jobs.

    • Replies: @donvonburg

    Democrat politicians rule most of our cities and many working class jobs are closed shop union jobs.
     
    If the labor unions still controlled the Democrat party this orgy of illegal immigration and wokeness would come to a halt. They'd be pro tariff and in favor of cutting back on immigration. And the hard hats never were that big on welfare programs for people that flat out didn't work.

    Sure, we'd pay more for stuff. The Teamsters would make truck driving back into a job that paid commensurately with the crummy lifestyle, and foreign cars would go up in price.

    But as a package deal I can live with that for a major blow to Democratic party extreme leftism.
  210. @RichardTaylor
    RIP.

    Something about this one makes me feel like a certain age is passing away.

    I often feel the same. For example, I read recently that Valery Harper, Rhoda Morgenstern, in The Mary Tyler Moore Show, had died. Although I never really cared for the character, I also felt that a certain age is passing away before my eyes.

  211. @Reg Cæsar

    Similarly the riff in Costello’s Two Little Hitlers is from Rebel Rebel.
     
    Did Elvis and his buddy Nick Lowe have a bet on who would write the better Hitler song?


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lEvMkvr7Wa0

    Todd Rundgren did a cover version of EC’s Two Little Hitlers:

  212. @Reg Cæsar

    Similarly the riff in Costello’s Two Little Hitlers is from Rebel Rebel.
     
    Did Elvis and his buddy Nick Lowe have a bet on who would write the better Hitler song?


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lEvMkvr7Wa0

    Haha……Nick & Elvis, probably my two faves.

    Elvis’ “smartness” and Nick’s every man take on life.

    Early EC promotion featured some photos, billboards, etc. that came a little close to AH’s posters from early 1930’s Germany. I always thought I was one of the few who picked up on that. Hahahahaha

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Early EC promotion featured some photos, billboards, etc. that came a little close to AH’s posters from early 1930’s Germany. I always thought I was one of the few who picked up on that. Hahahahaha
     
    Elvis C. had nothing on Ron Mael:

    https://media.giphy.com/media/Pzn9aWtMw5aQE/giphy.gif

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/53/d7/8b/53d78b8ccea04a9ba43a35f4079ac5b7.jpg

  213. @Daniel H
    The awfullest tale of an artist getting ripped off of his song writing royalties by his manager is the case of John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival and Saul Zantz. It is true, that Fogerty willingly signed away his royalties in a fit of anger. Fogerty is a hot head. There was tension in Creedence at the time and he didn't want to work with his bandmates anymore but Creedence had a few albums left that they were committed to record for Fantasy records. Instead of consulting a lawyer and finding away around the problem Fogerty signed away ALL of his songwriting royalties to get out of the record deal. Let's sit back and think. Fogerty signed away Proud Mary, Bad Moon Rising, Green River, Fortunate Son, Travelin Band, Who'll Stop the Rain, Up Around the Bend, Have You ever seen the Rain, Hey Tonight, Sweet Hitchhiker.... This catalogue has been played continuously from 1969 up untill the present day. Easily, tens of millions of songwriting royalties never landed in Fogerty's pocket because of this impulsive act. It seems to me the deal should have been voided as unconscionable.

    Anyway, there is a somewhat satisfactory ending to the tale. Around 10 years ago, some hedge fund mogul who was a big fan of Creedence, bought the songwriting catalogue from Zantz's estate and sold them to Fogerty on very favorable terms. Today, John Fogerty owns all of his songwriting royalties.

    Fogerty isn’t just a hothead, he’s probably a good definition of an idiot-savant. Very easily led by the nose to many nutcase conclusions, issues poorly thought-out arguements, but his good Irish looks and wonderful musical talents cover for him.

    Actually, he reminds me of Fredo Cuomo in terms of looks, except Fredo has no discernible talent besides being Andrews’ brother.

    Both are really a couple of himbos, but Fogerty at least brings his music to the party.

  214. @Reg Cæsar

    How many seventies/ eighties bands have all their original members still living?
     
    Or together? The Seekers, a Melbourne folk group with monster hits in the '60s, are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the original Ramones, who are all gone. They maintained the same lineup for over 50 years, far longer than anybody else. (Not counting married duos.)

    Ocasek and that Boston-the-band guy came from Ohio, and the leads in Aerosmith and J Geils were from New York. The whole "Beantown sound" was imported. I don't think there has ever been a true Yankee rock star-- and I mean that as a compliment!

    The most influential Massachusetts native in the rock era has to be Dick Dale. He was Lebanese and Slav, and made his name in California.

    Billy Squier is about the closest I can think to a Yankee rock idol. But I think the Squier family was in New Jersey in colonial days.

    James Taylor, born in Boston and inducted in the Rock&Roll HoF – but not my idea of a rocker.

    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @Bubba
    He is considered a "folk" singer and the last time I laughed at that old junkie fool he was making a mockery out of the Bataclan massacre in France.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kATwwRomMs

    If you visit the R&R HOF in Cleveland you'll see that the most of it has nothing to do with R&R. It is completely underwhelming and was annoyed that I wasted my time there. I could have been drinking at Parnell's.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    James Taylor, born in Boston and inducted in the Rock&Roll HoF – but not my idea of a rocker
     
    Taylor is apparently half-Yankee, but his father was a Southern Scot (hence another son named Livingston), and James grew up in Chapel Hill. Where Loudon Wainwright III, another almost-Yankee, almost-rocker was born. Loud grew up in Westchester, where his dad wrote a column for Life. Or Look. (Can never keep the two straight.)

    To complete the Chapel Hill-Yankee triad, Kay Kyser grew up practically on campus (at least four buildings are named for relatives; his "Kollege" was more than a gimmick), and after retirement served as president of the Christian Scientists in Boston.

    Harry Chapin claimed descent from the first New Englander hanged for incest. Steve was acquainted with his brother Jim.
    , @J.Ross
    There's a bad movie that got MST3K'd, from the "singer-songwriter" era, which has an interminable concert set piece with a guy who could be "James Taylor's sped brother Artie." The song itself was sort The Song of the Singer-Songwriter, about going out West to make music but getting caught in mediocrity.
  215. @Daniel H
    Mick Jagger is unusual looking, interesting to look at, attractive in a strange way to the eyes of both men and women, but he is in no way handsome.

    Here is a photo of Mick with his squeeze of the time, Marianne Faithful sitting with Alain Delon, the classically handsome French actor. Mick - with his skinny physique, rock and roll, unkempt clothes - looks like a court jester or fool compared to the very handsome and perfectly coiffed and clothed Delon. I wonder if this photo grated on Mick.

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2508/8586/t/6/assets/description_image_marianne-faithfull.jpg?14243084856038419497

    Mick figured out very early on that if you were the lead singer of a hit rock and roll band you could bang anything you want. And then he met other rock and rollers and celebrities and realized most were pussies, so if he just acted with a modicum of confidence and sexual forwardness he could also steal their hot girlfriends.

    Mick’s very cagey and intelligent, and has been living this gimmick since the start. Hence why he gives off such sexual energy—-because he’s one of the few pop musicians to both be a hit musician and actually behaves off stage as if he actually has testosterone.

    True story: Mick once stole Eric Clapton’s hot model girlfriend right in front of him while the pussy Clapton was openly begging Mick not to do it like an abject servant to his master, and then rolled over when she went with Mick.

    Oh, and who was that slutty model? Carla Bruni, who went on to be the first lady of France, married to Nicolas Sarkozy.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Mick Jagger was rehearsing his dance moves a month after heart surgery in his 70s. He’s very vigorous.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1128704900567904257?s=21
  216. @Altai
    I discovered a sister term to 'caucasity', 'white-ality'.

    The last time I seriously intended to skedaddle was in March 2014, when I went to New York for a working vacation. I reconnected with friends and family and did several readings. Hanging with folk I’ve known all my life and luxuriating in the warm embrace of an environment where I wasn’t incongruous filled me with a renewed sense of belonging. And, though my former hometown was gentrified to within an inch of being indistinguishable, it burst at the seams with vitality (though a bit too much “white-ality”). Bistros and bookstores had replaced barbershops and bodegas, and that industrious, chichi, upwardly mobile part of me saw plenty of opportunities to prosper. That had cinched it for me. I was putting together an exit strategy and a business plan on the plane back to Japan.
     
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2018/12/19/our-lives/2018-year-japan-began-listen/#.XX7GVWYo9PY

    This guys whole column series 'Black Eye' is amazing fodder. There is so much but I'll limit to just one other excerpt.

    I expected Obama’s victory over there to result in changing attitudes over here. I expected Obama’s coup to be the mother lode of good vibrations that would reverberate wherever black people dwell. I knew it would inform black youth that their potential is unlimited, and that’s a beautiful thing, but was it powerful enough to have an impact on the Japanese assessment of “blackness” and to inspire some here to critically rethink the foul and/or ignorant notions that remain pervasive? Sad to report, I perceived not a smidgen of change. It’s like black excellence is viewed as an exception to the natural state of blackness.
     

    I expected Obama’s coup to be the mother lode of good vibrations that would reverberate wherever black people dwell.

    Sorry. Indonesians are emitting on another frequency. There is no reception.

    • Agree: sayless
  217. @Reg Cæsar

    How many seventies/ eighties bands have all their original members still living?
     
    Or together? The Seekers, a Melbourne folk group with monster hits in the '60s, are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the original Ramones, who are all gone. They maintained the same lineup for over 50 years, far longer than anybody else. (Not counting married duos.)

    Ocasek and that Boston-the-band guy came from Ohio, and the leads in Aerosmith and J Geils were from New York. The whole "Beantown sound" was imported. I don't think there has ever been a true Yankee rock star-- and I mean that as a compliment!

    The most influential Massachusetts native in the rock era has to be Dick Dale. He was Lebanese and Slav, and made his name in California.

    Billy Squier is about the closest I can think to a Yankee rock idol. But I think the Squier family was in New Jersey in colonial days.

    The most influential Massachusetts native in the rock era has to be Dick Dale.

    Reg, you missed the big one:

    Charles Michael Kittridge Thompson IV

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixies_(band)#Legacy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Francis

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    That "IV" is a little suspicious, considering that his grandfather and great-grandfather were named Errol. However, the descent could have been lateral. I considered naming a son for my late half-brother, who was the Jr in the family, and calling the boy III. That would have been entirely legitimate.

    Another Bostonian rocker of possible Yankee origin-- although the surname is often Scottish-- is Chris Wilson, who wrote my favorite Flamin' Groovies songs during his tenure with that band. Nobody in the '70s nailed the '60s sound better, and many were trying.

    Wilson was hired, fired, and re-hired by Cyril Jordan, who I always thought had a strange look about him. Found out his father was Dutch and his mother Indonesian. Wilson had a contentious relationship with the bossy Jordan, but met and loved his mother. I can see that. Indonesians are Malays, like the Philippines, and many older Philippine women are just adorable.
    , @(((They))) Live
    Is Charles actually from Massachusetts, I think he just went to college there, love his work, one of the most underrated song writers ever IMO, back in the 90s I dreamed of the Pixies returning, now I want the Catholics back

    Also its only today that I learned that Ocasek produced Weezer's Blue and Green albums, early Weezer were great

  218. My brother got backstage passes all the time as he was a critic and occasional musician. One night in the early eighties I was waiting for him at the back to drive him home.

    There was a tour bus parked across the street from me. They would watch the girls approaching from either side if the girls were interested and intrigued they would gauge the age and likely interest and change the sign on the bus accordingly.

    Anything from the current band playing to Burt Reynolds. They would then negotiate with the girls about how the girls could get to meet the celebrities in the back. Most women piled right in. They were cruising back there to meet and presumably screw the celebrities in the first place.

    Gave me a jaundiced view of humanity.

  219. OFF TOPIC

    TRUMP IS A TREASONOUS SONOFABITCH BACKSTABBER ON IMMIGRATION POLICY

    Trump wants to flood the USA with mass legal immigration “in the largest numbers ever.”

    Trump refuses to deport the upwards of 30 million illegal alien infiltrators in the USA.

    Trump wants to flood the USA with tens of millions of visa foreigners and visa interlopers and green card foreigners and student visa foreigners and every other kind of visa foreigner he can think of.

    Trump pushes mass legal immigration.

    Trump is an anti-worker politician whore who will keep the H-1B visa floodgates wide open.

    Trump has always been in bed with the Republican Party CHEAP LABOR FACTION.

  220. @Autochthon

    Described as having a voice from God (he really does; it’s incredible)...he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook[;] all beefy and sweaty[,] he looks like a pig.
     
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wDyK-Nnwn0Q/maxresdefault.jpg

    http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Tara+LeVox+52nd+Annual+ASCAP+Country+Music+kbSLQPv3zLbl.jpg

    http://adeleisfat.weebly.com/uploads/7/9/2/1/7921072/2422916_orig.jpg

    Those with truly amazing pipes are sometimes allowed to be tubby and make it big....

    Rockstars are, by definition, though, outliers. Go to any music department at a university and most of the best vocalists are chubby if not obese; this trend holds even among the majority of working singers – in night clubs, musical theatre, and so on (it's harder to make it big on Broadway or sell out arenas, though, without being attractive, too). I've often suspected one reason the guys in Kiss adopted the gimmick of the make-up is that they cleverly realised how ugly they were, and used it to avoid competing with the pretty boys of glam-rock who reigned supreme at the time. Peter Gabriel was a very handsome young man who nevertheless adopted make-up and masks, and even that crazily shaven hair with nothing but success to show for it – still, his peak commercial fame came later, when he cut his hair, took off the make-up, and began dressing like the leading man for a romantic comedy from central casting (around the time of So.

    Is there any single trait that can make life so dramatically difficult or easy as the mere accident of being born ugly or gorgeous? I really don't think there is....

    “I’ve often suspected one reason the guys in Kiss adopted the gimmick of the make-up is that they cleverly realised how ugly they were, and used it to avoid competing with the pretty boys of glam-rock who reigned supreme at the time.”

    Autochthon,

    I use to think that Kiss simply took their inspiration from the henchman characters of the most memorable movie of my pre/early teens; Brian de Palma’s Phantom of the Paradise. But it could just as likely been Vice Versa I guess?

    Phantom 1974

  221. i mean, his main achievement was Paulina Porizkova

  222. Eddie Money doesn’t rate a Steve post.

    get ready though. in the 2020s, all the rock stars will die. it will be hit after hit. kind of like when music was at it’s peak, but instead of hit songs, it will be dead guys hitting the floor.

  223. @GSR
    The Cars were ok....they sort of "mainstreamed" "new wave" (whatever that meant). I think their songs had a deliberate vapid meaningless about them that was on purpose (similar to Blondie), that's why it never appealed to me much but a good sound and refreshing to hear on the radio as opposed to the same Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin, etc of the late 1970's.

    I prefer E Costello, Squeeze, Nick Lowe/Dave Edmunds, Warren Zevon, John Hiatt, for my two cents.

    The Cars and Blondie were in fact the two canonical American New Wave bands. Their music was, as Lester Bangs said, “Andy-school” it was based on the Warholian idea of conveying style with a substance that was no substance at all, so the viewer could read into it what he or she wanted. People with any political, religious, sexual, social orientation could equally like it, it accepted all on its own terms. Offending no one, challenging no one, except to like it in the moment.

    In both cases it was a smash hit. It’s hard to not like their musics, that was the point. Few are rabid fans but enough people like them they’re in rotation for the rest of their lives, and then some.

    I have never met anyone in either band but I did a lutherie workshop in a music store where Clem Burke, the Blondie drummer, was doing a drum clinic. People who were not Blondie fans-mostly metalheads and fusion nerds-were over there watching this guy, stunned into silence. What the **** was this guy doing with a band of trendy nincompoops led by an awkward retired stewardess type in her late fifties? I watched the guy for about ten minutes and came away thinking that it had to be some kind of cosmic chuckle of the universe. He was phenomenally solid and powerful.

    In the Cars, the real talent besides Ocasek’s good judgment and lack of ego to hire people better than himself was Eliott Easton, the lefty phenomenon guitar player. Benjamin Orr was also great. Blondie’s flaw, if they had one, is that none of the guys could sing (or if they could, they didn’t) and so you didn’t get the great advantage of mixed vocals like Fleetwood Mac. You saw that with Stevie’s first solo album having a hit with Tom Petty, and later on the phenomenal, if underrated, record and tour Mark Knopfler did with country queen Emmylou Harris.

    In contrast British new wave outfits always had to make some kind of political or social statement, and you loved or hated them for it. There was always deeper emotion but it was usually over something later coming off as ridiculous or outright rotten.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Here’s Burke saying that “Dreaming” could have been an even bigger hit if they gave him a chance to refine the drum track rather than using his first take.

    https://youtu.be/HEqXgPtbQ6w
    , @GSR
    I agree with your thoughts, you know that "punk and newwave" period as well as I.

    Arguably, Costello did more to create "new wave" than any other, I'd one looks at the release dates of his earliest recordings. The stripped down sound, less guitar, more keyboards, clever lyrics, etc. But new wave only lasted a brief time, it was a shot in the arm of the rock world. It was needed, but in the end, it was a modern adaption of early flrock and roll, late 50's stuff.

    Blondie, while I always respected them, struck me a bit too "New York art school" types, desperately trying to strike a pose. EC, while quite smart and clever, was still more of an "everyman" guy in a pub.

    Alas, I hate all the slow ballads Costello has specialized in for the past decade. LoL. But grown man shouldn't be singing "No Action", "Red Shoes", etc.

    Take care.
    , @Anonymous
    Jimmy Destri could sing a little as could Gary Lachman but not as well as Debbie, so they were Denied. Jimmy’s sister Donna and Liza Minnelli ‘s sister Lorna Luft sang on ETTB backing several tracks.

    Destri’s solo album is fairly decent.

    Do. Not. Mention Emmylou around Deb. They had an incident at Max’s in the early 70s, and D can hold a grudge like no one since Francis Albert. Too bad since they would harmonize well vocally.
  224. probably time for Steve to do an HBD post on how good looking europeans are, by country. no, they don’t all look the same, and yes, the Czech women are the best looking on average.

  225. @Daniel H
    Mick Jagger is unusual looking, interesting to look at, attractive in a strange way to the eyes of both men and women, but he is in no way handsome.

    Here is a photo of Mick with his squeeze of the time, Marianne Faithful sitting with Alain Delon, the classically handsome French actor. Mick - with his skinny physique, rock and roll, unkempt clothes - looks like a court jester or fool compared to the very handsome and perfectly coiffed and clothed Delon. I wonder if this photo grated on Mick.

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2508/8586/t/6/assets/description_image_marianne-faithfull.jpg?14243084856038419497

    Mick Jagger is unusual looking, interesting to look at, attractive in a strange way to the eyes of both men and women, but he is in no way handsome.

    Females beg to differ. They find him manly in an accessible and nonthreatening way.

  226. @peterike

    Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn’t really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That’s his dad’s character he’s playing. Bruce admits he’s more of a delicate artsy type.
     
    In other words, a phony and a class traitor. But, one must admit, a brilliant role player. Probably the best con man in musical history and a stone-cold great songwriter, possibly the best rock song writer ever.

    This is why Bruce ended up being a fey Leftist squish rather than the lunch-box Trump supporter he should be. The best that can be said of him is that he may have truly empathized with the plight of the white working class. But then he's too stupid to realize the politics he supports is a knife blade aimed right at the heart of the people he came from.

    This is why Bruce ended up being a fey Leftist squish rather than the lunch-box Trump supporter he should be. The best that can be said of him is that he may have truly empathized with the plight of the white working class. But then he’s too stupid to realize the politics he supports is a knife blade aimed right at the heart of the people he came from.

    I suspect he realizes it fully, but like Kirk in the Star Trek episode where he has to let Joan Collins’ character be killed to unwind the disaster of a history in which he will not be present, considers it the price that must be paid.

    Bruce owes his “street cred” to certain liberal press and opinionmakers’ promotion and is afraid that if he “came clean”, all the goodies he has would go away. Not just for himself, but the real trap of souls, for his family. Didn’t his buying a six figure horse for his daughter make the news recently?

    Many a man, or woman, will sign a deal with the Devil (usually metaphorically, but not always) not for themselves but their family, their associates, their colleagues.

    Mr. Sailer has Bruce pegged as a heterosexual but artsy and even somewhat nebbishy man in the body and persona of an idealized (as opposed to actual) “windbreaker type”, a union auto or steel worker or whatnot. Actual blue collar factory work-I did it, I was a sheet metal fabricator and a prefab roofing plant woodworker-would bore Bruce to tears, and he’d probably quit paying attention and hurt himself or someone else badly. I think he lives with this contradiction more than people realize.

  227. Serious question.What percent of people get goosebumps while listening to music they like? Of the seven people in my family i seem to be the only one.While i liked the Cars(even weirdly been to his houses in brookline and nantucket) they never gave the goosebumps that other groups did to me.

    • Replies: @(((They))) Live
    Debaser by the Pixies has that effect on me, still remember the first time I heard it

    I just need to hear the opening bass line

    , @Jack D
    I will get goosebumps on occasion but only for highly emotional music such as a high impact opera aria, rarely from rock:

    https://youtu.be/cWc7vYjgnTs?t=134

    But then again I think you'd have to be dead not to get goosebumps from that.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    I like rock music and I like the Cars, but it does not give me goose bumps.

    I saw Renee Fleming sing this earlier this year, and it gave me goose bumps.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT_prP_MNaQ

    The most beautiful duet ever written. Saw this live but sadly not these two:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV5zUa4zMnw
  228. @Anonymous
    I'd seen and met plenty of celebrities--and I wasn't some Cindy Crawford "fan" or anything--so what I'm describing I would have felt if she werent famous. She was just inhumanly beautiful.

    I was reminded of the height thing because I was in line at CVS of all places and I thought, "whoa, that guy is tall." When I finally saw him I realized, "oh, that's Rasheed Wallace."


    But famous or not someone like Shaq would make an impression on you. You just don't run into guys built like Shaq every day.

    One of my high school buddies, an old basketball teamate, is 6’10” and has always received a lot of attention because of his height. When we attended the Chicago Jazz Festival in Grant Park in the early 80’s and stood very close to 7′ 2″ NBA star Artis Gilmore, my tall friend didn’t seem very tall. 7′ 2″ in real life is unbelievably tall.

  229. One other Ocasek related story.One of my best friends older sister was a tutor for one of Ocaseks kids with his first wife.Now my friend was a wild kid whos dad had passed away when he was around ten.
    So we lived in Boston and he was the youngest of five kids with a widowed mom.Bostons pubic schools at the time were terrible,having been decimated by forced busing.Luckily for my friend his smart older sister used Ocaseks address to get him in the prestigious Brookline high where he thrived socially and athletically even getting a football scholarship to Northeastern despite only playing organized football one year.
    Now hes a good grown man married with 4 kids.I think Ocasek played his small role in my pals success …so props to him for that goosebumps or not.

  230. @Ganderson
    RIP Ric. You gave hope to all us ugly guys that we could indeed snag a hottie.

    It is my belief that the Fountains of Wayne song Stacy’s Mom is an homage to My Best Friend’s Girl.

    My favorite Cars number is You’re All I’ve Got Tonight/ Bye Bye Love

    Interesting thought I never considered. And the visuals are based on that wonderful Phoebe Cates Fast Times scene in which Moving in Stereo plays. Makes sense.

  231. @Dave Pinsen
    I saw Steve Van Zandt at the Minetta Tavern (owned by the same guy who owns Balthazar) in Manhattan a year or two after the Sopranos went off the air. No one bothered him.

    Van Zandt is one of the few celebrities who looks like he could respond to harassment with undocumented dentistry even as an old man.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    If you like Steve Van Zandt, check him out in the hilarious Lilyhammer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilyhammer

    Thanks to all who recommended Ghettoside. I read it this past week and it was eye opening.
    , @Anonymous
    From what I understand there is no question that he can and if provoked might. But is a decent guy if not abused.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    He wasn't exactly giving off an inviting vibe - sitting at a corner table with is back to the corner, wearing that hankie on his head.
  232. @istevefan
    Steve, that is not Paulina in that particular video. According to wikipedia,

    The video features band leader Ric Ocasek and model Susan Gallagher in a series of encounters
     
    Paulina appeared in the video for "Drive".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuZA6qiJVfU

    the Polish model Paulina Porizkova
     
    BTW, Paulina is a Czech, not a Pole.

    Isn’t Ocasek a Czech, too?

  233. @Hhsiii
    RIP.

    The riff in Best Friend’s Girl is ripped from the Beatles’ I Will. Similarly the riff in Costello’s Two Little Hitlers is from Rebel Rebel.

    I saw Ocasek and Porsikova at an upscale pan-American foodie joint in Gramercy 25 years ago. Another tall model on his other arm. He was like 6’5” 140 pounds.

    “Second Choice” by Any Trouble is based on the bridge to “Two Little Hitlers.” I think they improved it too.

  234. @Wilkey
    The story I heard re: why so many rock stars wind up with supermodels is that they'd get directors to cast them in their music videos. Ocasek met Porizkova during filming of the music video for "Drive." He was married and 21 years her senior. He was far from the only rock star to marry a supermodel, but he was almost certainly the ugliest.

    Ric was not conventionally attractive nor particularly talented. But he did have some qualities that worked with Paulina.

    He was of Czech descent

    He was tall- even tall girls want a taller guy.

    He was older than her. She was 19 when they met and most of her life she didn’t have a father in her home life. Her dad fled Czechoslovakia when she was three and she was raised by her grandmother till she was about ten. Not long after she was reunited with her parents in Sweden, they broke up. She was off to Paris alone to model when she was 15. She wanted a stable older male presence

  235. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    The most influential Massachusetts native in the rock era has to be Dick Dale.
     
    Reg, you missed the big one:

    Charles Michael Kittridge Thompson IV

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixies_(band)#Legacy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Francis

    That “IV” is a little suspicious, considering that his grandfather and great-grandfather were named Errol. However, the descent could have been lateral. I considered naming a son for my late half-brother, who was the Jr in the family, and calling the boy III. That would have been entirely legitimate.

    Another Bostonian rocker of possible Yankee origin– although the surname is often Scottish– is Chris Wilson, who wrote my favorite Flamin’ Groovies songs during his tenure with that band. Nobody in the ’70s nailed the ’60s sound better, and many were trying.

    Wilson was hired, fired, and re-hired by Cyril Jordan, who I always thought had a strange look about him. Found out his father was Dutch and his mother Indonesian. Wilson had a contentious relationship with the bossy Jordan, but met and loved his mother. I can see that. Indonesians are Malays, like the Philippines, and many older Philippine women are just adorable.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    Cars drummer David Robinson was a member of what was probably the first New Wave band.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Modern_Lovers

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy88-5pc7c8

    The Farrelly Brothers proving their local cred by using Modern Lovers frontman Jonathan Richman as the weird guy crooning throughout There's Something About Mary.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1Ev4kebjq0

    Plenty of "Boston" bands are formed by some of the kids who come here to attend one of the 89 colleges and universities that infest Greater Boston.

    This is a real local boy. He plays pretty well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTpyRCNbqy8
  236. @J.Ross
    I have heard quibbles about Marian's accuracy: his maps are so perfectly conversation-worthy that I'd be careful about defending them.

    I said they were “intriguing”, not precise. The questions are interesting, even if some of the answers are wrong. I’ll defend their intrigue.

  237. Bit cruel to say it The Cars effectively made one of the greatest propaganda videos of all time:

    Ethiopia

    Population1985: 40 million

    Population today: 110 million and climbing.

  238. Think this video with Paulina is better. Emotion in Motion.

  239. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    Once I was in the Roppongi district of Tokyo. This is where e Westerners hang out.
    I was walking down the street and maybe 30 feet ahead I saw and felt an aura of a beautiful woman coming my way. This stunning blonde with perfect features walked past my friend and me. My female friend muttered that she must be a model.

    Damn right she was. That was the most beautiful woman I have ever seen She was only about 5’5″ so she couldn’t model in the West so had to go to Japan

  240. @donvonburg
    The sound and the appearance of electric guitars in terms of color, outline, shape, etc. are in no way related. And to evaluate a guitar for playability you need to be pretty close.

    Certain design features like the type and placement of pickups, can give a clue, but humbuckers can have coil splits or taps.

    Guitar players all DO play certain guitars for looks, but not as the uninitiated would see it. Fans have certain expectations of what a certain kind of guitar does or should be used for and that's what many, maybe most, players will select.

    For example, people associate Telecasters with a certain school of virtuosity because Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton, etc. were "masters of the Telecaster". Working man Bruce Springsteen, riffmaster Keith Richards, and rock chick extraordinaire Chrissie Hynde all play Teles so that's what someone wanting to convey that image will pick even though in the studio they might have used a 335 Gibson, a Strat or a PRS on the record. Same is true with Les Pauls, or, well, anything.

    With acoustic guitars form follows function more, but still people pick them for looks and association more than anything else. Martins, in particular, are the most overrated guitars out there in my experience. Most made between the early seventies and early 2000s are mediocre guitars and they all tend to need structural work-neck resets, repaired top cracks from pickguard shrinkage, fingerboard replacements or back shaving-as time goes on. A high end ¥amaha or Takamine is usually a better sounding guitar that will need less work.

    The two companies that can really manufacture guitars that consistently play well out of the box and hold up are Taylor and PRS. Gibson, Fender, Martin, and Rickenbacker are all legacy messes with no consistency and widely varying quality. Ricks are somewhat consistent, but they are also beset with issues that make them a niche product-either you love them or you hate them.(I hate them.) Gibson is the worst-they have made some good guitars and a lot of turds, some of which there is no economic fix for, the work would exceed the value of the instrument. Fenders due to their modular construction you usually can get into shape with skilled neck and pocket work. Martins are all fixable, but you know you'll have to do it again in twenty years, and there are a lot of judgment calls to be made. Bluegrassers who string them with telephone cables and have the braces shaved for that "cannon" sound are the bane of any repairman. I hate bluegrassers from an instrument standpoint, there is no pleasing them because they want something that was a myth from the beginning.

    From that standpoint then Ocasek was completely rational.

    Gibson, Fender, Martin, and Rickenbacker are all legacy messes with no consistency and widely varying quality. Ricks are somewhat consistent, but they are also beset with issues that make them a niche product-either you love them or you hate them.(I hate them.) Gibson is the worst-they have made some good guitars and a lot of turds, some of which there is no economic fix for, the work would exceed the value of the instrument. Fenders due to their modular construction you usually can get into shape with skilled neck and pocket work.

    I’d agree. I’m currently a Gibson player, started as a Strat player. Gibson has literally no quality control. Their whole business model sucks. Here’s one of the many “What Happened to Gibson” articles that’s come out in the last few years. And here’s a video of a shit Gibson guitar demolition that’s been going around. I like LP fine- it’s one of the Trad models, though that means a hefty 12 pounds, which most people don’t want anymore. But is it worth what a comparably priced Fender would offer? No. Whatever their flaws, Fender retains long-time staff much more than Gibson does, and it shows in their quality control. I’ve finally settled into the “Let Gibson Die” mentality. They just don’t deserve anyone’s loyalty.

    I’l agree that PRS has pretty solid quality, but they really have no personality to them. They seem to be favored by guitarists who like a gainy, atmospheric sound- Dave Navarro comes to mind.

    The company that’s coming along that really impresses me is Suhr. They’re making a bid to become the next Fender- a company equally known for guitars and amps. I have to say, a lot of musicians I really respect have switched to their stuff, and it all sounds great.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I bought a PRS SE guitar and am quite happy with it. They are the Korean made line. The US made ones are called "Core" and cost much more, offer better (prettier) woods and finishes, but play about the same. I don't have the woodworking equipment or skills to build guitars from scratch but can do assembly and setup. I do build my own amps and stomp boxes though.

    Suhr is one of a dozen companies that have Fender specification parts made up by CNC houses like Warmoth (with differing head stock shapes and tweaks to the body, etc.) and finish and assemble them. The workmanship is good, but then they charge a high end price for it. These companies basically exist because Fender isn't fulfilling the desire of buyers to have a decent playing instrument at a non-stratospheric price. The out of case experience on a Suhr, a Grosh, a LSL, a Sadowsky, etc, etc, is good. They come set up and tweaked properly. Fenders come needing at least an hour of setup and occasionally a fret dress, cold solder joints fixed, the nut refitted or replaced, etc and then plan on fret sprout needing fixing when it gets cold outside the first two years you own it. Suhr's amps are also tweaked Fender or Marshall designs. They won't give you a schematic either because they think hobbyists will clone them but they will work well, being somewhat better built than a new Fender or Marshall.


    Les Pauls have gotten really really heavy because the originals happened to be built out of lightweight mahogany whereas most mahogany now is much heavier.Cchambering them works but isn't the way they did it in '58, so they don't. Les didn't care how heavy the guitar was because he was already an old man with a broken arm when he designed the LP and usually sat down when he played.
  241. @Anonymous
    Deb was on her second go-around, having been with a trippy baroque folk rock group put out by Artie Kornfeld of Woodstock fame, called Wind in the Willows, circa 1968/69. They sounded like a cross between the Mamas and the Papas and It's A Beautiful Day, with a trifle Jefferson Airplane thrown in there. They really were pretty good, but they came out about a year too late, and their second album never got released. Supposedly the masters are lost, but rumor has it Peter Leeds (who was involved with Blondie, later, early on, and who D and Chris hate, hate, hate, he did fuck them over) has it stashed somewhere.

    D does not like to talk about this , I've brought it up and it was clear she was upset about something and I dropped the matter. I've also talked to (now Dr.) Wayne Kirby (currently a professor at UNC Asheville) about it and he seemed to not want to revisit the matter either.

    In about two weeks , Debbie's autobiography (also in a sense her second go around, after the largely autobiographical Making Tracks) will be released. Steve, you know, it would be a good idea really for you to review this book.

    In about two weeks , Debbie’s autobiography (also in a sense her second go around, after the largely autobiographical Making Tracks) will be released. Steve, you know, it would be a good idea really for you to review this book.

    Debbie was adopted and grew up in New Jersey. I was told her parents retired to and ran a shop in Cooperstown, N.Y., where my stepfather worked for many years, and where my mother briefly ran a store, too, and claimed to have met them at the time. It would be fun to verify this. Mel Gibson’s last US address before his family emigrated is a short drive away.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Richard and Catherine Harry did in fact run a Cooperstown gift shop for years. They were somewhat besieged by Deb’s fans, usually gay men.

    For these Debheads the hajj to Hawthorne and then the parents’ gift shop was a rite of passage.

    The Harry’s passed away around the time that Deb reformed Blondie and became a somewhat successful rock and roller-particularly overseas-and this subculture moved on somewhat.
  242. RIP……HILDEGARD OF BIGEN……That’s Sister HILDEGARD OF BIGEN……Perhaps if Luther had listened to her music, we could have avoided the Protestant Revolution……

    Is the Bulgarian State Radio Women’s Choir still around…..They did a great rendition of “Oh Suzanna” on Letterman…….

    There is 400 year Lute Music Music that really rocks…..think Kapsburger…..think Bertali…..

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    Hildegarde of Bingen is still influencing musicians in Europe, eight hundred years later. I'm quite partial to this trip-hop version by Swedish folkies Garmarna.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJpIMrQmPng
  243. OFF TOPIC

    Trump should demand one trillion dollars from the Saudi camel jockey’s in exchange for launching a single cruise missile at the Iranians. Trump should then tell the Iranians to put some old truck out in the hinterlands of Iran somewhere and then Trumpy’s cruise missile could obliterate it. Trump could then give a 100 billion dollar slice to the Iranians and be done with it. That’s 900 billion dollars for the USA!

    How much is this new Saudi oil corporation going to be listed at? A trillion dollars? two trillion dollars?

    Trump isn’t getting enough oil loot from the Saudis. Trump is getting some war material money from the Saudis for US war production corporations, but it ain’t enough!

    Triple Cross Those Saudis, Trumpy!

    TAKE THE SAUDI OIL, TRUMPY!

    Trump in 2014:

  244. @Reg Cæsar
    Tangentially on-topic to the tangential topic of comely Slavs:


    https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/immigrants-europe-country-of-origin.jpg


    Lots of intriguing maps at Jakub Marian's site:


    Immigration in Europe: Map of the percentages and countries of origin of immigrants

    28 Maps That Will Completely Change The Way You View Europe

    If Norwegians invaded Poland, it was over a thousand years ago. Two thousand in the case of Italy and Romania!

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Sweden did more recently, and at the time I think it included Norway. Sweden was a major regional power for a while. However those are probably like the Poles of London, exiled plumbers, except these thought England would be too warm.
  245. So Ric Ocasek was older than John Fogerty? Weird.

  246. @Reg Cæsar
    If Norwegians invaded Poland, it was over a thousand years ago. Two thousand in the case of Italy and Romania!

    Sweden did more recently, and at the time I think it included Norway. Sweden was a major regional power for a while. However those are probably like the Poles of London, exiled plumbers, except these thought England would be too warm.

  247. anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:
    @R.G. Camara
    According to Joel in his recent autobiography, it was actually Christie Brinkley who came on to him---simultaneously with Elle MacPherson (then 19) and Whitney Houston.

    Joel states that he had just divorced his crazy manipulative first wife and fled to the Caribbean for a vacation. Joel was already famous at this point. Joel was still distraught on his divorce, but one night found an island piano bar and played himself happy. And around the piano flocked Brinkley, Houston, and MacPherson., all flirting with him.

    Eventually, the vacation ended, and Joel went back to NY. There, he simultaneously dated MacPherson and Brinkley, and even had a funny moment when both girls showed up at his apartment at the same time to go on a date with him. No threesomes for him, sadly; Brinkley coolly left, but she eventually won Joel from MacPherson.

    Or that's the story Joel is telling.

    Anyway, the moral of the story is: learn to play either the piano or the guitar well. No game or looks is required after that, the women will come to you. Have you ever known a loser lead guitar player in any band to be wanting for a girlfriend?

    There are other morals to this terrible story.

    The mating of the most beautiful Nordic model Christie Brinkley with the ahem Billy Joel resulted in their hideous skank daughter. This is a very strong case against race mixing and for birth control:

    https://images.app.goo.gl/4wYWk4W6FEn2zG1q7

  248. Anonymous[160] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    In about two weeks , Debbie’s autobiography (also in a sense her second go around, after the largely autobiographical Making Tracks) will be released. Steve, you know, it would be a good idea really for you to review this book.
     
    Debbie was adopted and grew up in New Jersey. I was told her parents retired to and ran a shop in Cooperstown, N.Y., where my stepfather worked for many years, and where my mother briefly ran a store, too, and claimed to have met them at the time. It would be fun to verify this. Mel Gibson's last US address before his family emigrated is a short drive away.

    Richard and Catherine Harry did in fact run a Cooperstown gift shop for years. They were somewhat besieged by Deb’s fans, usually gay men.

    For these Debheads the hajj to Hawthorne and then the parents’ gift shop was a rite of passage.

    The Harry’s passed away around the time that Deb reformed Blondie and became a somewhat successful rock and roller-particularly overseas-and this subculture moved on somewhat.

  249. @R.G. Camara
    Mick figured out very early on that if you were the lead singer of a hit rock and roll band you could bang anything you want. And then he met other rock and rollers and celebrities and realized most were pussies, so if he just acted with a modicum of confidence and sexual forwardness he could also steal their hot girlfriends.

    Mick's very cagey and intelligent, and has been living this gimmick since the start. Hence why he gives off such sexual energy----because he's one of the few pop musicians to both be a hit musician and actually behaves off stage as if he actually has testosterone.

    True story: Mick once stole Eric Clapton's hot model girlfriend right in front of him while the pussy Clapton was openly begging Mick not to do it like an abject servant to his master, and then rolled over when she went with Mick.

    Oh, and who was that slutty model? Carla Bruni, who went on to be the first lady of France, married to Nicolas Sarkozy.

    Mick Jagger was rehearsing his dance moves a month after heart surgery in his 70s. He’s very vigorous.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    Cocaine is a heckuva drug.
  250. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    The most influential Massachusetts native in the rock era has to be Dick Dale.
     
    Reg, you missed the big one:

    Charles Michael Kittridge Thompson IV

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixies_(band)#Legacy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Francis

    Is Charles actually from Massachusetts, I think he just went to college there, love his work, one of the most underrated song writers ever IMO, back in the 90s I dreamed of the Pixies returning, now I want the Catholics back

    Also its only today that I learned that Ocasek produced Weezer’s Blue and Green albums, early Weezer were great

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Is Charles actually from Massachusetts
     
    Yes. Condensed from Wikipedia:

    Black Francis was born in Boston and [most of ?] his school-age years were spent in Marblehead, MA and Westport, MA [two olde saltwater Yankee towns]. He dropped out of UMass and moved to Boston, recording with the Pixies at local studios Fort Apache, Q Division, and Downtown Recorders.

  251. @donvonburg
    The Cars and Blondie were in fact the two canonical American New Wave bands. Their music was, as Lester Bangs said, "Andy-school" it was based on the Warholian idea of conveying style with a substance that was no substance at all, so the viewer could read into it what he or she wanted. People with any political, religious, sexual, social orientation could equally like it, it accepted all on its own terms. Offending no one, challenging no one, except to like it in the moment.

    In both cases it was a smash hit. It's hard to not like their musics, that was the point. Few are rabid fans but enough people like them they're in rotation for the rest of their lives, and then some.

    I have never met anyone in either band but I did a lutherie workshop in a music store where Clem Burke, the Blondie drummer, was doing a drum clinic. People who were not Blondie fans-mostly metalheads and fusion nerds-were over there watching this guy, stunned into silence. What the **** was this guy doing with a band of trendy nincompoops led by an awkward retired stewardess type in her late fifties? I watched the guy for about ten minutes and came away thinking that it had to be some kind of cosmic chuckle of the universe. He was phenomenally solid and powerful.

    In the Cars, the real talent besides Ocasek's good judgment and lack of ego to hire people better than himself was Eliott Easton, the lefty phenomenon guitar player. Benjamin Orr was also great. Blondie's flaw, if they had one, is that none of the guys could sing (or if they could, they didn't) and so you didn't get the great advantage of mixed vocals like Fleetwood Mac. You saw that with Stevie's first solo album having a hit with Tom Petty, and later on the phenomenal, if underrated, record and tour Mark Knopfler did with country queen Emmylou Harris.

    In contrast British new wave outfits always had to make some kind of political or social statement, and you loved or hated them for it. There was always deeper emotion but it was usually over something later coming off as ridiculous or outright rotten.

    Here’s Burke saying that “Dreaming” could have been an even bigger hit if they gave him a chance to refine the drum track rather than using his first take.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Burke is one of the best working rock and roll drummers in the world. ahe's underrated because of the genres he's worked in and the generally low odor Blondie was traditionally held in Flyover America.

    The Cars were held in higher status somewhat, as were the Pretenders.

    My theory is that all successful female fronted rock bands, whether the rest of the band is male, female or mixed, have superior and forceful drumming behind them. One reason girl bands have problems-generally any female drummer who can play that way is a unphotogenic Brunhilde, and thy are rare at that.

    In addition to Burke, see Mick Fleetwood and Martin Chambers.

    Neither is the drummer Burke is (though both are still fine) but then again Harry is less confident and physically coordinated looking than either FM chick or Chrissie. her success has a lot to do with Clem's power drumming.
  252. @Dave Pinsen
    Mick Jagger was rehearsing his dance moves a month after heart surgery in his 70s. He’s very vigorous.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1128704900567904257?s=21

    Cocaine is a heckuva drug.

  253. @El Dato
    OT: I hear the NYT has done a Sterling Job and found new 40-year old X-files about Kavanaugh pushing Penis towards Ladies.

    I can't take another shitshow.

    Maybe it it time to take care of anyone associated to the NYT to finally have peace and quiet. By "take care" I mean, serve them high-calorie cake until they die of clogged arteries.

    More people in need of high-calorie cake. I can even be a force-baked gaycake:

    https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1173290967773982722

    https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1173250953103007745

    https://twitter.com/JulianCastro/status/1173075279687929856

    https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1173316283980554240

    I am a Democrat candidate currently polling very low in the polls. I hereby double down on the demands of the other Democrat candidates. I demand that Bret Kavanaugh be DOUBLE impeached, as well as Donald Trump, whoever was the Attorney General during the hearings (I forget who), the headmaster of Kavanaugh’s shitty privileged private school and anyone else who has ever spoken a kind word about this horribly lying white guy who not only dick slaps women but women of color such as the brave Deborrrrrrrrah Rrrrrrramirezzzzzz, a true Borrrrrrrrrrrrriquena . I know that this was all considered during the hearings but now we are in the thick of an election campaign and this is a slow news day (if you put aside that half the oil capacity of Saudi Arabia is now up in smoke because their air defenses are managed by Arabs) so now is a good time to bring this up. Thank you very much.

    • LOL: JMcG
  254. @peterike

    Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn’t really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That’s his dad’s character he’s playing. Bruce admits he’s more of a delicate artsy type.
     
    In other words, a phony and a class traitor. But, one must admit, a brilliant role player. Probably the best con man in musical history and a stone-cold great songwriter, possibly the best rock song writer ever.

    This is why Bruce ended up being a fey Leftist squish rather than the lunch-box Trump supporter he should be. The best that can be said of him is that he may have truly empathized with the plight of the white working class. But then he's too stupid to realize the politics he supports is a knife blade aimed right at the heart of the people he came from.

    Bruce has had a weird, countercyclical sensibility. He was an accidental beneficiary of the patriotic Reaganism wave in 1984, because “Born In The USA” sounded like a patriotic anthem if you ignored the other lyrics. Then he comes out with his nouveau Depression-themed “Ghost of Tom Joad” just when the late ‘90s economic boom is about to kick off. And then, in the depths of financial crisis, he plays an outrageously upbeat set during the Super Bowl.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    The chapter about selling Born In The USA in Goodman's A Mansion On The Hill," A Great Marketing Experience" is very depressing for someone who was just getting into music at the time.
  255. @Intelligent Dasein
    I once saw Arnold Schwarzenegger doing a spot with the guys from one of those NFL shows---that would be Howie Long and Cris Collinsworth and whoever the hell the other two were---and he looked like a midget. Even the lanky Collinsworth had broader shoulders and thinker limbs than Arnold, and Howie positively dominated him.

    Howie Long is listed at 6'5", but I don't believe it. If you watch him and Kevin Costner together in 3000 Miles to Graceland, they are just about the same height and Kevin Costner is a generous 6'3''.

    So if Howie Long is 6'4" at most, then Arnie is stretching his last vertebrae to make it to 6'0" based on the evidence I've seen.

    Now ask me about the time I body-guarded Alice Cooper. It's a good story.

    Wilt Chamberlain, Ahh-nold, and Andre the Giant:

  256. @Bostonvegas
    Serious question.What percent of people get goosebumps while listening to music they like? Of the seven people in my family i seem to be the only one.While i liked the Cars(even weirdly been to his houses in brookline and nantucket) they never gave the goosebumps that other groups did to me.

    Debaser by the Pixies has that effect on me, still remember the first time I heard it

    I just need to hear the opening bass line

  257. @Bostonvegas
    Serious question.What percent of people get goosebumps while listening to music they like? Of the seven people in my family i seem to be the only one.While i liked the Cars(even weirdly been to his houses in brookline and nantucket) they never gave the goosebumps that other groups did to me.

    I will get goosebumps on occasion but only for highly emotional music such as a high impact opera aria, rarely from rock:

    But then again I think you’d have to be dead not to get goosebumps from that.

  258. @Hapalong Cassidy
    It’s also very true what they say about the camera adding ten pounds. You don’t get a sense of how truly thin these models and actresses are until you see them in person. I had a similar experience many years ago, when I was standing in line at Chipotle behind Jen Carfagno, who at the time was easily the hottest anchorwoman at The Weather Channel. Way hotter in person than on camera.

    I sat next to Kate Beckinsale at a small theater show.

    She was beautiful and yes noticeably extremely thin. I also buy the “camera adds 10 lbs.” line unironically. Kate Beckinsale would stand out for that reason if you didn’t know who she was.

    I think Steve has commented on being next to Reese Witherspoon and just thinking how tiny she is.

  259. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    I don't know, Mick Jagger is one ugly dude. Be interesting to rank ugliest rock singers.

    “Ugly” is a relative term for men. The more money/fame/talent/confidence you have, the more “attractive” you are.

    • Replies: @danand

    ““Ugly” is a relative term for men.”

     

    Hypnotoad,

    What’s seems weird to me is that Ric Okasek, minus the ears, actually looks very ordinary in this high school photo. Most mens looks typically “peak” near their late 30’s; the age when, one could argue, Okasek looked his most awkward. Maybe too many amphetamines?

    https://flic.kr/p/2hgwess
  260. @Steve Sailer
    Bowie eventually aged into handsomeness, but the classic rock star look tended to be symmetrical but unusual: too delicate or too alien or too gaunt or too something to be movie star handsome: e.g., Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith. Johnny Depp is a rare movie star who also looks like a rock star. Maybe Val Kilmer too.

    Generally, square-jawed Tom Cruise handsomeness isn't what rock stars have. Rock stars typically have high cheekbones and small jaws.

    In general, rock stars tend to be heterosexuals with some effeminate traits, such as dancing ability and loving the crowd's adoration. E.g., Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn't really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That's his dad's character he's playing. Bruce admits he's more of a delicate artsy type.

    “In general, rock stars tend to be heterosexuals with some effeminate traits, such as dancing ability and loving the crowd’s adoration.”

    Like that big fag Henry VIII. Or every other mediaeval/early modern monarch. It’s not gender, it’s race: white people aren’t supposed to dance anymore.

  261. @Reg Cæsar
    That Portugal is England's oldest ally and the House of Avis was half-English does not qualify a native of Praia da Vitória as a Yankee.

    You'd think someone named "Autochthon" would be the first to understand that.

    I reckon your argument is not far from one that the Van Halen brothers are Dutch, so their band cannot claim to bolster the idea Los Angeles has produced remarkable rock musicians.

    Metallica are likewise poseurs for claiming an association with San Francisco, because Ulrich was born in Denmark.

    (And John McCain was a Panamanian!)

    This thinking conflates two issues with a nuanced difference: whether a band whose members all grew up in Metropolis and got their start there are a Metropolitan band, and whether an immigrant is or is not, strictly speaking, a native of Metropolis.

    I take your point, but I think it is not meaningful in the context of whether New England ever produced any talented rockstars.

    Besides, even conceding your point leaves Gary Cherone, Patrick Badger, and Mike Mangini as … what? Chopped liver?

    I was amazed to see, when investigating your original point, that all the bands I thought of as being out of Boston – the ones you’d already mentioned, but also the likes of ‘Til Tuesday, etc. were indeed transplants.

    Except Extreme. Three quarters of them, at least; though, arguably, not the single most talented (Mangini having left the band and not having been a founder anyway – though he deserves mention in his own right.)

    • Replies: @Feryl

    Metallica are likewise poseurs for claiming an association with San Francisco, because Ulrich was born in Denmark.
     
    Huh? Cliff Burton and Kirk Hammett were both from the Bay area. Hetfield and Mustaine were from L.A.

    In the mid-80's, half of Metallica's line-up was born and raised in the Bay area.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    I said there were no Yankee rock stars, not no Bostonian or New England ones. When I say "Yankee", I mean Yankee. Not guineas, micks, frogs, heebs, or portogees.

    Billy Squier has taken to volunteer gardening across the street in Central Park, which is a very Yankee thing to do. So I'd say he comes the closest.

    I don't know much about the Pixies, whom I've always confused with the Pogues. Maybe I should have confused them with the Dropkick Murphys. I'm still getting over the news that the Irish Rovers were Canadian, not Irish, even though I always knew their hit was written by a Chicago Jew.
  262. @War for Blair Mountain
    RIP......HILDEGARD OF BIGEN......That’s Sister HILDEGARD OF BIGEN......Perhaps if Luther had listened to her music, we could have avoided the Protestant Revolution......


    Is the Bulgarian State Radio Women’s Choir still around.....They did a great rendition of “Oh Suzanna” on Letterman.......


    There is 400 year Lute Music Music that really rocks.....think Kapsburger.....think Bertali.....

    Hildegarde of Bingen is still influencing musicians in Europe, eight hundred years later. I’m quite partial to this trip-hop version by Swedish folkies Garmarna.

    • Replies: @War for Blair Mountain
    I also recommend Armenian Church Music....Russian Orthodox Church Music number 1.....
    , @War for Blair Mountain
    Yep...that’s Sister Mary Hildergarde Music alright.....Since you are I are discussing Catholic Nuns......A Catholic Nun made a very important contribution to the Classification of Finite Simple Groups......Another Catholic Nun revolutionized the study of Special Functions.....Sister Celine....The Israelies held a conference in Sister Celine’s honor a few years back.....Those of you who are familiar with the book A=B....The book was based upon Sister Celine’s Algorithm.......

    Steve

    Bizzarly......Nobel Prize winning Physicist Paul Adrian Dirac...Dirac Equation...Anti-Matter...was a very big fan of Cher....Dirac thought that Cher was the greatest of Composers-Singers of all time.....Autism will do that to you.....Dirac had an obsession with Cher.....In the Realm of BATSHIT CRAZY......

  263. Bob Seger is the real Bruce Springsteen, or he should have been, if not for the east coast hype-machine that carried Springsteen to “everyman fame”. Seger was as big as Bruce from 78-81. He had a much better voice and wrote material just as good, or better than Bruce.

    Seger actually worked on a Ford car assembly-line. Stayed in Michigan where he still lives & BTW he’s doing his final concert tour this year.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    Bob Seger is the real Bruce Springsteen, or he should have been, if not for the east coast hype-machine that carried Springsteen to “everyman fame”. Seger was as big as Bruce from 78-81. He had a much better voice and wrote material just as good, or better than Bruce.

     

    Bob Seger was a fan of Van Morrison and at the end of Against The Wind when Seger says "let the cowboys ride" that is a nod to Morrison's song Sante Fe.

    https://youtu.be/PT7us6p5iD8
    , @JMcG
    Agree 100%. The working man’s Bruce Springsteen.
    , @Bill B.
    Famously Keith Richards said that if one closed one's eyes when listening to Bruce Springsteen he sounds like Neil Diamond. It was not a compliment.
  264. @bored identity
    Meanwile,

    “Corn Pop was a bad dude. And he ran a bunch of bad boys...” :

    https://youtu.be/up9diHYgZ0g


    There goes S.Carolina primary down the drain.

    But who would win in a fight: Biden’s imaginary gang friend “Corn Pop,” or Cory Booker’s imaginary gang friend “T-Bone?”

    Then, Booker said, “he looked at me with this vicious ferocity that he looked at me with when he first threatened my life, and he bit down hard on his lip and he burst into tears and he started crying and sobbing into my dashboard.” He told the New School in February 2007, “That rift between me and T-Bone was inches, we sat there, but I felt so alienated that there was a gulf as wide as the Grand Canyon between us, and I could not reach out to save this young man, and we drove back to Brick Towers, and I’ve never seen him again since that day.”
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/2013/08/cory-bookers-imaginary-friend-eliana-johnson/amp/

    I heard that T-Bone eventually got married and settled down with Obama’s imaginary “composite white girlfriend.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/2/president-says-girlfriend-book-was-composite/

    So Cory’s imaginary melodrama has a happy ending.

    • Replies: @bored identity
    First of all, Corn Pop wuz for real :

    http://mshades.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/young-neil-degrasse-tyson.jpg
  265. @donvonburg
    The Cars and Blondie were in fact the two canonical American New Wave bands. Their music was, as Lester Bangs said, "Andy-school" it was based on the Warholian idea of conveying style with a substance that was no substance at all, so the viewer could read into it what he or she wanted. People with any political, religious, sexual, social orientation could equally like it, it accepted all on its own terms. Offending no one, challenging no one, except to like it in the moment.

    In both cases it was a smash hit. It's hard to not like their musics, that was the point. Few are rabid fans but enough people like them they're in rotation for the rest of their lives, and then some.

    I have never met anyone in either band but I did a lutherie workshop in a music store where Clem Burke, the Blondie drummer, was doing a drum clinic. People who were not Blondie fans-mostly metalheads and fusion nerds-were over there watching this guy, stunned into silence. What the **** was this guy doing with a band of trendy nincompoops led by an awkward retired stewardess type in her late fifties? I watched the guy for about ten minutes and came away thinking that it had to be some kind of cosmic chuckle of the universe. He was phenomenally solid and powerful.

    In the Cars, the real talent besides Ocasek's good judgment and lack of ego to hire people better than himself was Eliott Easton, the lefty phenomenon guitar player. Benjamin Orr was also great. Blondie's flaw, if they had one, is that none of the guys could sing (or if they could, they didn't) and so you didn't get the great advantage of mixed vocals like Fleetwood Mac. You saw that with Stevie's first solo album having a hit with Tom Petty, and later on the phenomenal, if underrated, record and tour Mark Knopfler did with country queen Emmylou Harris.

    In contrast British new wave outfits always had to make some kind of political or social statement, and you loved or hated them for it. There was always deeper emotion but it was usually over something later coming off as ridiculous or outright rotten.

    I agree with your thoughts, you know that “punk and newwave” period as well as I.

    Arguably, Costello did more to create “new wave” than any other, I’d one looks at the release dates of his earliest recordings. The stripped down sound, less guitar, more keyboards, clever lyrics, etc. But new wave only lasted a brief time, it was a shot in the arm of the rock world. It was needed, but in the end, it was a modern adaption of early flrock and roll, late 50’s stuff.

    Blondie, while I always respected them, struck me a bit too “New York art school” types, desperately trying to strike a pose. EC, while quite smart and clever, was still more of an “everyman” guy in a pub.

    Alas, I hate all the slow ballads Costello has specialized in for the past decade. LoL. But grown man shouldn’t be singing “No Action”, “Red Shoes”, etc.

    Take care.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Blondie was always plugged into the latest new thing. E.g., Debbie Harry and her husband took Nile Rodgers of Chic to his first hip-hop concert where he was outraged to find that the kids were "rapping" over his guitar playing on "Good Times."

    I think that's a pretty funny story.

  266. @northeast
    Bob Seger is the real Bruce Springsteen, or he should have been, if not for the east coast hype-machine that carried Springsteen to "everyman fame". Seger was as big as Bruce from 78-81. He had a much better voice and wrote material just as good, or better than Bruce.

    Seger actually worked on a Ford car assembly-line. Stayed in Michigan where he still lives & BTW he's doing his final concert tour this year.

    Bob Seger is the real Bruce Springsteen, or he should have been, if not for the east coast hype-machine that carried Springsteen to “everyman fame”. Seger was as big as Bruce from 78-81. He had a much better voice and wrote material just as good, or better than Bruce.

    Bob Seger was a fan of Van Morrison and at the end of Against The Wind when Seger says “let the cowboys ride” that is a nod to Morrison’s song Sante Fe.

    • Replies: @northeast
    Bob & Bruce were big Van guys in the 70s. Van is a musical genius who's on a whole other level than his peers. He is as prolific today as he was in his youth.
  267. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Another interesting thread is the changing masculinity of rock stars as you moved from the 1970s to 1980s. I was just a kid in the 70s, but looking at pictures of bands from the 70s, they seemed much more masculine (and, frankly, hairier) compared to 80s bands. (Queen being an obvious exception.)

    Even the 80s heavy metal bands were more effeminate compared to their 70s counter-parts. Actually, maybe effeminate isn't quite the right word. The 80s saw a slew of soy-boy bands, likely because college was becoming the main breeding ground of bands as well as how they made a name for themselves on tour. A band such as REM just screams college guys singing songs that college kids would like.

    Thankfully, The Replacements saved the day.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AH5NVFHeu4

    Let’s be honest most first people’s first The Replacements was either I’ll Be You or Merry Go Round. I only listened to College Rock that made it onto mainstream rock radio in high school and several years after.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    First I heard (on Christina's Time Warp on 89x, the best thing in Detroit radio until the bastard suits killed it) was this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftTOEJfzdq0
    , @ken
    The book 'Trouble boys" makes the valid point that the Replacements were grunge ten years before grunge made it big and by then Bob was long gone and Paul was running the show with music that would have been better received 5-10 years earlier. Replacements didn't make it big due to being drunken assholes. To quote Westerberg about the group, “the little engine that could, but didn’t f*cking feel like it.” I was blessed to have WXRT and a college station introduce me early, although I'll freely admit "Pleased to meet me" and "Tim" are my favorites.
  268. @YetAnotherAnon
    Hildegarde of Bingen is still influencing musicians in Europe, eight hundred years later. I'm quite partial to this trip-hop version by Swedish folkies Garmarna.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJpIMrQmPng

    I also recommend Armenian Church Music….Russian Orthodox Church Music number 1…..

  269. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Bob Seger is the real Bruce Springsteen, or he should have been, if not for the east coast hype-machine that carried Springsteen to “everyman fame”. Seger was as big as Bruce from 78-81. He had a much better voice and wrote material just as good, or better than Bruce.

    It was the WEST coast machine, particularly Jann Wenner of Rolling Stone that heavily promoted Springsteen. Having said that, Springsteen and his E Street Band were musically and lyrically a lot more sophisticated than the prole-ish Seger.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Seger was real good. He had a bit of bad luck in that his dullest song "Old Time Rock and Roll" became his biggest hit. Compare it to his similar but better "Rock and Roll Never Forgets." He wasn't quite the lyricist Springsteen was, but he was well above average.

    Seger probably had some bad luck as well in having the same peak years as a guy with the same initials. Not being quite as good as Bruce Springsteen isn't bad.

    I vaguely think he has had some lengthy court battles over the rights to his songs that may be keeping his reputation lower than it could be.

  270. Last night….the homosexual PEDERAST Pete Townshend and his midget enabler Roger Daltry performed at the Jones Beach Theater……..to their adorning Boomer Fans…..

  271. @Dave Pinsen
    Bruce has had a weird, countercyclical sensibility. He was an accidental beneficiary of the patriotic Reaganism wave in 1984, because “Born In The USA” sounded like a patriotic anthem if you ignored the other lyrics. Then he comes out with his nouveau Depression-themed “Ghost of Tom Joad” just when the late ‘90s economic boom is about to kick off. And then, in the depths of financial crisis, he plays an outrageously upbeat set during the Super Bowl.

    The chapter about selling Born In The USA in Goodman’s A Mansion On The Hill,” A Great Marketing Experience” is very depressing for someone who was just getting into music at the time.

  272. @Hypnotoad666
    "Ugly" is a relative term for men. The more money/fame/talent/confidence you have, the more "attractive" you are.

    ““Ugly” is a relative term for men.”

    Hypnotoad,

    What’s seems weird to me is that Ric Okasek, minus the ears, actually looks very ordinary in this high school photo. Most mens looks typically “peak” near their late 30’s; the age when, one could argue, Okasek looked his most awkward. Maybe too many amphetamines?

    Rick High school

    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    That's amazing. That's by far the best picture of Okasek that I've ever seen.
    , @Feryl
    Good photography and "coaching" by the picture taker can make a huge difference. Also, Ocasek is one of those guys who looks better with well groomed short(er) hair; some guys can look a lot worse if their hair is cut a bit too short or grown out too long.
  273. @(((They))) Live
    Is Charles actually from Massachusetts, I think he just went to college there, love his work, one of the most underrated song writers ever IMO, back in the 90s I dreamed of the Pixies returning, now I want the Catholics back

    Also its only today that I learned that Ocasek produced Weezer's Blue and Green albums, early Weezer were great

    Is Charles actually from Massachusetts

    Yes. Condensed from Wikipedia:

    Black Francis was born in Boston and [most of ?] his school-age years were spent in Marblehead, MA and Westport, MA [two olde saltwater Yankee towns]. He dropped out of UMass and moved to Boston, recording with the Pixies at local studios Fort Apache, Q Division, and Downtown Recorders.

  274. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Here’s Burke saying that “Dreaming” could have been an even bigger hit if they gave him a chance to refine the drum track rather than using his first take.

    https://youtu.be/HEqXgPtbQ6w

    Burke is one of the best working rock and roll drummers in the world. ahe’s underrated because of the genres he’s worked in and the generally low odor Blondie was traditionally held in Flyover America.

    The Cars were held in higher status somewhat, as were the Pretenders.

    My theory is that all successful female fronted rock bands, whether the rest of the band is male, female or mixed, have superior and forceful drumming behind them. One reason girl bands have problems-generally any female drummer who can play that way is a unphotogenic Brunhilde, and thy are rare at that.

    In addition to Burke, see Mick Fleetwood and Martin Chambers.

    Neither is the drummer Burke is (though both are still fine) but then again Harry is less confident and physically coordinated looking than either FM chick or Chrissie. her success has a lot to do with Clem’s power drumming.

    • Replies: @flyingtiger
    That explains a lot. When some producer was working with Lita Ford, the most important issue was who was to be her drummer. He never resolved that issue and hence her career suffered.
    The only consistent female drummer is Denise Duford of Girlschool. Let's just say she is not the prettiest member of the band.
  275. @YetAnotherAnon
    Hildegarde of Bingen is still influencing musicians in Europe, eight hundred years later. I'm quite partial to this trip-hop version by Swedish folkies Garmarna.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJpIMrQmPng

    Yep…that’s Sister Mary Hildergarde Music alright…..Since you are I are discussing Catholic Nuns……A Catholic Nun made a very important contribution to the Classification of Finite Simple Groups……Another Catholic Nun revolutionized the study of Special Functions…..Sister Celine….The Israelies held a conference in Sister Celine’s honor a few years back…..Those of you who are familiar with the book A=B….The book was based upon Sister Celine’s Algorithm…….

    Steve

    Bizzarly……Nobel Prize winning Physicist Paul Adrian Dirac…Dirac Equation…Anti-Matter…was a very big fan of Cher….Dirac thought that Cher was the greatest of Composers-Singers of all time…..Autism will do that to you…..Dirac had an obsession with Cher…..In the Realm of BATSHIT CRAZY……

  276. Ric Ocasek also produced at least one Bad Brains album (I think the second one).
    I haven’t seen the video in probably over 36 years, but I remember some Bad Brains graffiti figuring prominently in the video for Ocasek’s song Jimmy Jimmy.
    RIP Ric Ocasek.

  277. @Mr. Anon
    I can understand why you felt cheated. They're entertainers, and if they are performing live, they should entertain.

    Still, I've never much liked rock concert performances. Pop music is such a synthetic creation that a lot of the sound depends on how it is produced in the studio. An orchestra can sound as good live as on a recording, but a rock group seldom so.

    I was a member of a US Army band in 1947-48, and most, if not all of us band members were big Stan Kenton fans. Many of his hit were on 78RPM Capitol Records. His music was called Progressive Jazz and he produced what to some people seemed weird arrangements. He did have capable musicians and an attractive female vocalist named June Christie. One concert I well remember was at the Mosque in Richmond Virginia, a very ornate theater indeed. I believe it still functions as a theater.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Wow, what a great age - too young for WWII, too old for Korea (I assume), not that they were going to send talented musicians to the front, and from the Depression birth cohort where there was not a lot of competition. But I assume you are pushing 90 now. I wish you continued good health. My MIL is 97 and still in pretty good shape (knock on wood) mentally and physically but the women seem to last longer.
  278. @danand

    “no love for Eddie Money?”
     
    Mike,

    My Eddie Money story comes via my sister. Back in the mid ‘80’s one of my sisters close friends won a SF Bay Area radio contest. The prize was to have Eddie Money and his band perform at your party.

    My sisters friend had the party at her parents home in Santa Clara. Eddie, his band, and a small entourage showed up and performed a few songs. Eddie stayed for a few hours, most of the rest stayed past dawn. My sister said there were a lot of local girls at the party, and there was a lot of “activity” throughout the night. Eddie personally came through to ensure the friend was satisfied with the prize she had won.

    My sister was very disappointed in Eddie; as he had married to a much younger woman just a few months prior to the party. My sister was a few years junior Eddie’s bride and couldn't fathom how Eddie could “treat his wife” like that.

    PS - I personally wasn’t of the opinion that the Cars were terrible, but did tire of them relatively quickly; as most everyone I knew bought and wore out that first record.

    Great story.

  279. @Anonymous

    Bob Seger is the real Bruce Springsteen, or he should have been, if not for the east coast hype-machine that carried Springsteen to “everyman fame”. Seger was as big as Bruce from 78-81. He had a much better voice and wrote material just as good, or better than Bruce.
     
    It was the WEST coast machine, particularly Jann Wenner of Rolling Stone that heavily promoted Springsteen. Having said that, Springsteen and his E Street Band were musically and lyrically a lot more sophisticated than the prole-ish Seger.

    Seger was real good. He had a bit of bad luck in that his dullest song “Old Time Rock and Roll” became his biggest hit. Compare it to his similar but better “Rock and Roll Never Forgets.” He wasn’t quite the lyricist Springsteen was, but he was well above average.

    Seger probably had some bad luck as well in having the same peak years as a guy with the same initials. Not being quite as good as Bruce Springsteen isn’t bad.

    I vaguely think he has had some lengthy court battles over the rights to his songs that may be keeping his reputation lower than it could be.

    • Replies: @northeast
    Seger basically semi-retired in the mid-80s & retired from 1996, until his 2006 comeback. He routinely outsold Springsteen in his prime & crushed him in radio play. That played a large part in Seger's overall decline concerning his public image.

    Seger's 3 albums since 2006 are better by far than anything Bruce has wrote in 20 years.

    In any event, by all measures, Bruce's voice was below average to terrible...Seger has one of the greatest, most versatile voices in rock history. It's music after all, and I'm not big on listening to someone like Springsteen straining to just sound painful.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Seger was a more authentic blue collar guy that Bruce and he had some excellent insights:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfoufXs01KU
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Seger was real good. He had a bit of bad luck in that his dullest song “Old Time Rock and Roll” became his biggest hit.
     
    That wasn't his song. It was written by two hacks for a movie, and Seger was hired to sing it. That's why it doesn't sound much like the rest of Seger. (I'd tell friends I agreed with the song, but still hated it.)

    I looked up the songwriters in Dick Jacobs's massive reference book of song hits and don't remember either of them credited with anything else. And the Jacobs book is quite thorough.

    In contrast, "Jet Airliner", written by Paul Pena, sounds like typical Steve Miller, except more articulate lyrically and musically.

    "I Got a Name" was written by veteran Hollywood writers Norman Gimbel and Charles Fox, who also wrote "Killing Me Softly". The former fit Jim Croce almost perfectly.

    Sometimes a band's least representative song becomes their calling card, and they're stuck with it. Stories had "Brother Louie", and the Knack "My Sharona", for example. The other members of REO hated "Keep On Loving You", but Kevin Cronin forced it upon them. I doubt they resented the performance royalties.
    , @Steve from Detroit
    The other Seger song that had enormous commercial success was Like a Rock, which was used by Chevrolet for many years to sell Silverado pickup trucks. It's actually a very good song that ironically came out when I turned 18 and didn't have a care.

    He is legendary in Detroit, as you might imagine. I have a friend whose children go to school with Seger's children and the friend says he is every bit as kind as you might expect. He has battled booze and other demons, including bad relationships, and he was financially in a tough spot for many years. The only (minor) criticism of him is that he has had a number of "farewell" tours, with the first being about 10 years ago. I think he gets some bad advice from his people and they have to use the farewell angle to sell more tickets. Kid Rock absolutely idolizes him, and I will leave it up to the rest of you to decide whether that is good or bad.

    If I could choose only one word to describe him, other than talented, it would be authentic, which is a rare commodity these days.
    , @Steve from Detroit
    The other Seger song that had enormous commercial success was Like a Rock, which was used by Chevrolet for many years to sell Silverado pickup trucks. It's actually a very good song that ironically came out when I turned 18 and didn't have a care.

    He is legendary in Detroit, as you might imagine. I have a friend whose children go to school with Seger's children and the friend says he is every bit as kind as you might expect. He has battled booze and other demons, including bad relationships, and he was financially in a tough spot for many years. The only (minor) criticism of him is that he has had a number of "farewell" tours, with the first being about 10 years ago. I think he gets some bad advice from his people and they have to use the farewell angle to sell more tickets. Kid Rock absolutely idolizes him, and I will leave it up to the rest of you to decide whether that is good or bad.

    If I could choose only one word to describe him, other than talented, it would be authentic, which is a rare commodity these days.
    , @R.G. Camara
    Seger was a poor man's Springsteen, as the saying goes.
  280. @Clifford Brown
    I thought it was a pretty good story. How many politicians have fought delinquent greaser gangs armed with rusty shaving razors with a pool chain?

    Could Yang, Beto or Booker tell a similar story?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o-7MmhqNfA

    “Where was I? Oh right. So I was friends with segregationists, which was the style at the time.”

  281. @The Last Real Calvinist
    A music star's good looks, or lack thereof, is one theme in 'The Commitments', a movie I'm very fond of.

    The lead singer of the eponymous group is a 17-year-old who's described as having a voice from God (he really does; it's incredible). As an adolescent guy who's becoming a star, he expects girls to fall at his feet, but the problem is that he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook. He's got none of that gamine rock star look going for him. Instead, he's all beefy and sweaty, and the girls in the band think he looks like a pig.

    https://tageswoche.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/imagescms-image-004725278-980x653.jpg

    Christopher Cross was doomed by being both unsightly and the explosion of MTV. The guy had a great voice though.

  282. @GSR
    I agree with your thoughts, you know that "punk and newwave" period as well as I.

    Arguably, Costello did more to create "new wave" than any other, I'd one looks at the release dates of his earliest recordings. The stripped down sound, less guitar, more keyboards, clever lyrics, etc. But new wave only lasted a brief time, it was a shot in the arm of the rock world. It was needed, but in the end, it was a modern adaption of early flrock and roll, late 50's stuff.

    Blondie, while I always respected them, struck me a bit too "New York art school" types, desperately trying to strike a pose. EC, while quite smart and clever, was still more of an "everyman" guy in a pub.

    Alas, I hate all the slow ballads Costello has specialized in for the past decade. LoL. But grown man shouldn't be singing "No Action", "Red Shoes", etc.

    Take care.

    Blondie was always plugged into the latest new thing. E.g., Debbie Harry and her husband took Nile Rodgers of Chic to his first hip-hop concert where he was outraged to find that the kids were “rapping” over his guitar playing on “Good Times.”

    I think that’s a pretty funny story.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Debbie Harry has no husband and never did. She is a never married barren doe.

    She was living with Chris Stein for almost 20 years but they never married and he left her because among other things she did not want to produce a child (and seeing as she was 40+ this made sense) so he married an aspiring actress, Barbara Sicurunza, and they promptly had two kids. She's about 20 years Stein's junior. Stein was six years younger than Harry to begin with.
  283. Paulina Porizkova is Slovak from my wife’s home town not Polish.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    Paulina Porizkova is Slovak from my wife’s home town not Polish.

     

    I apologize to the Czech people for calling Porizkova a Czech. In restitution for my error, I assure you the czech to purchase Slovak pilsner is in the mail. Czech that, pilsner is Czech too!

    Carol Alt, the American Prussian New Yorker, is ten times better looking than Porizkova!

    John Kasich is part Czech and part Croatian, but he is an all-around arsehole of the worst sort.

    Kasich pushes mass legal immigration and mass illegal immigration and REFUGEE OVERLOAD and ASYLUM SEEKER INUNDATION.
  284. @peterike

    Bruce Springsteen has admitted that he isn’t really masculine workingman type he plays on stage. That’s his dad’s character he’s playing. Bruce admits he’s more of a delicate artsy type.
     
    In other words, a phony and a class traitor. But, one must admit, a brilliant role player. Probably the best con man in musical history and a stone-cold great songwriter, possibly the best rock song writer ever.

    This is why Bruce ended up being a fey Leftist squish rather than the lunch-box Trump supporter he should be. The best that can be said of him is that he may have truly empathized with the plight of the white working class. But then he's too stupid to realize the politics he supports is a knife blade aimed right at the heart of the people he came from.

    Neil Strauss’s compilation of music star interviews (Everyone Loves You When You’re Dead) is suspiciously perfect in bearing out expectations: this could be Strauss tailoring information to feed biases and “sound correct,” like every fortune teller, or it could be because these guys, being public figures, had already been accurately introduced through much other media.
    In the book, U2’s Bono is a pretentious douchebag pseudo-martyr, Eddie Money might be a Nazi (well, he was a cop), Rick James is a dedicated partier, Neil Young is an ornery old man, and the brothers of Oasis are the most unapologetically self-important megalomaniacs to ever rip off the ideas of others, which is pretty much how they’re seen.
    Bruce Springsteen comes off as a genuinely nice guy who tips well.

  285. @Johann Ricke

    This is a very good analogy. I once came across a Hong Kong film star whom I’d admired on screen. I would have pegged her as an 8 based on films and photos. In real life, she was staggeringly beautiful — absolutely mesmerizing.
     
    This being the internet era, it would be nice if we could judge for ourselves the looks of this particular sloe-eyed beauty. Name, please (in English or otherwise, thanks to the miracle of cut and paste).

    Name, please (in English or otherwise, thanks to the miracle of cut and paste).

    Sure; it was Rosamund Kwan.

    She’s in her 50s now, but incident I’m recalling was quite a ways back, so she would have been in her 30s at that time.

    Here are a couple of photos:

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Sure; it was Rosamund Kwan.
     
    I'll have to agree that she's easy on the eyes. On this subject, the closest I've ever been to celebrity was passing within 3 feet of Uma Thurman on the street a couple of decades ago. I am certain it was her because she was with Ethan Hawke - her husband at the time. She looked just like she did in Pulp Fiction. Maybe I'm undiscerning, but I could swear that are any number of women I've seen in the workplace who are better-looking than she is. Maybe she wasn't radiating the charisma that movie stars are said to be able to turn on at will. Both were very friendly and approachable with the random passers-by who smiled at and greeted them.
  286. @Redneck farmer
    Let's be honest most first people's first The Replacements was either I'll Be You or Merry Go Round. I only listened to College Rock that made it onto mainstream rock radio in high school and several years after.

    First I heard (on Christina’s Time Warp on 89x, the best thing in Detroit radio until the bastard suits killed it) was this:

    • Replies: @AP
    89x no longer exists? Horrible...
    , @Redneck farmer
    When the Pittsburgh alternative rock station began putting it in relatively heavy rotation I remembered hearing Alex Chilson half asleep during the long gone show Brave New World on WDVE. Just before I began hearing Merry Go Round.
  287. @Ancient Briton
    James Taylor, born in Boston and inducted in the Rock&Roll HoF - but not my idea of a rocker.

    He is considered a “folk” singer and the last time I laughed at that old junkie fool he was making a mockery out of the Bataclan massacre in France.

    If you visit the R&R HOF in Cleveland you’ll see that the most of it has nothing to do with R&R. It is completely underwhelming and was annoyed that I wasted my time there. I could have been drinking at Parnell’s.

  288. @Cloudbuster
    I'm pretty sure Meat Loaf never had any trouble getting laid and he's also a sweaty pig.

    I’m pretty sure Meat Loaf never had any trouble getting laid and he’s also a sweaty pig.

    No doubt. I’m just recalling the plot of the movie. It would be interesting to know what happened to the guy who played Deco, the lead singer in The Commitments, i.e. Andrew Strong. Has he led a Deco life, or a Meat Loaf life?

    I googled Andrew Strong, and it appears he’s still around as a performer, sort of. His website (LINK) has a bio that has not been updated since 2011, but there is a notice about a performance earlier this year.

    The photos reveal that Strong’s early-onset male pattern baldness, which was already well evident in The Commitments, has completed its work.

    Ironically, I said in my original comment that in the movie he looked 45 years old. That’s exactly how old he is now, but he now looks 55.

    Would he have had a different career if he looked like Mick Jagger? Or even like Ric Ocasek?

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Would he have had a different career if he looked like Mick Jagger? Or even like Ric Ocasek?
     
    Yes.
  289. @Steve Sailer
    I never saw them. They didn't seem like a sincere Springsteen-type act that would really play their hearts out for the audience.

    Yeah, they seemed like a band that mostly loved the studio. Experimenting with the synths, and perfecting the recording mix. When you watch some of the documentary bits (on youtube) covering the early years of the band, they got jinxed in Europe around 1979 by bad press which framed them as Corporate Rock, too produced, too slick & heavily marketed.
    Apparently Ben Orr had a drug habit that got quite bad for a few years but it’s not clear if that was causative in his cancer & death 20 years ago.
    In retrospect, Ric has done well to reach 75. He accomplished a lot.
    Hope they release a DVD of their 1982 performance at the US Festival. Only two songs of it on youtube. So much of the US Festival footage is being held hostage by recording labels, various legal squabbles.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    Wow. This calls to mind a memory. 35 years ago when I was driving a cab in New York, some music bigwig got into my cab and we started talking. He was somehow involved with the Cars and he said they all hated each other. Refused to even work together. He said that by this time, for recordings the fundamental base and rhythm track would be sent by mail (Fedex?) to each of them in turn and they would record their parts separately. I recall him saying that the Cars were Ocasek's band. I never followed the Cars or bought any of their records. In my mind, just like Eddie Money and Tom Petty they were a "new" band.
  290. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Blondie was always plugged into the latest new thing. E.g., Debbie Harry and her husband took Nile Rodgers of Chic to his first hip-hop concert where he was outraged to find that the kids were "rapping" over his guitar playing on "Good Times."

    I think that's a pretty funny story.

    Debbie Harry has no husband and never did. She is a never married barren doe.

    She was living with Chris Stein for almost 20 years but they never married and he left her because among other things she did not want to produce a child (and seeing as she was 40+ this made sense) so he married an aspiring actress, Barbara Sicurunza, and they promptly had two kids. She’s about 20 years Stein’s junior. Stein was six years younger than Harry to begin with.

  291. @The Last Real Calvinist

    I’m pretty sure Meat Loaf never had any trouble getting laid and he’s also a sweaty pig.

     

    No doubt. I'm just recalling the plot of the movie. It would be interesting to know what happened to the guy who played Deco, the lead singer in The Commitments, i.e. Andrew Strong. Has he led a Deco life, or a Meat Loaf life?

    I googled Andrew Strong, and it appears he's still around as a performer, sort of. His website (LINK) has a bio that has not been updated since 2011, but there is a notice about a performance earlier this year.

    The photos reveal that Strong's early-onset male pattern baldness, which was already well evident in The Commitments, has completed its work.

    Ironically, I said in my original comment that in the movie he looked 45 years old. That's exactly how old he is now, but he now looks 55.

    Would he have had a different career if he looked like Mick Jagger? Or even like Ric Ocasek?

    Would he have had a different career if he looked like Mick Jagger? Or even like Ric Ocasek?

    Yes.

  292. @Charles Pewitt

    Bob Seger is the real Bruce Springsteen, or he should have been, if not for the east coast hype-machine that carried Springsteen to “everyman fame”. Seger was as big as Bruce from 78-81. He had a much better voice and wrote material just as good, or better than Bruce.

     

    Bob Seger was a fan of Van Morrison and at the end of Against The Wind when Seger says "let the cowboys ride" that is a nod to Morrison's song Sante Fe.

    https://youtu.be/PT7us6p5iD8

    Bob & Bruce were big Van guys in the 70s. Van is a musical genius who’s on a whole other level than his peers. He is as prolific today as he was in his youth.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    Van the Man! And on Cypress Avenue too.
    Van Morrison Up on Cyprus Avenue
    105,088 views•Published on Oct 23, 2015

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=CFQC9XQGwKE

  293. @Anonymous
    You know, I might not have believed in "super-models" in the sense that they were actually one in a billion attractive.

    But then I saw post-prime Cindy Crawford in real life. And she was stunning to a weird degree I'd never encountered before. Like if a guy who was 7'8 walked in the door and you were like, "Oh my God, Ive never seen someone 7'8 before and I didn't know that was humanly possible except that Google told me it was."

    This was probably 2002. She was in jeans and a t-shirt at In-N-Out with her husband and kids.

    BTW, the Westwood In-N-Out is a not-obvious place to see megastars--I also saw Tom Hanks there. In-N-Out is associated with LA but there aren't actually a lot of locations on the west side where the rich and famous live (when I was there, at least, there was no In-N-Out in Santa Monica, Brentwood, Palisades, Malibu, Beverly hills, or bel-air). So celebrities who were sane and stable enough to deal with the consequences took their kids to the Westwood In-N-Out so they could have the normal kid experience their friends did.

    Her husband, besides being born rich as hell, was tall and movie star good-looking. He now makes even more money doing silly business ventures with George Clooney. Some life.

    I had basically the same experience circa 1982, when I was having brunch at an Upper East Side diner with PiltdownBrother1, and he said “look! There’s Cheryl Tiegs!” as she walked by the window of the restaurant. Then she came in and sat down, with a young child, at a table next to us. It took the greatest effort not to gawk, and continue with the meal.

    As you say, it is impossible to conceive of that kind of beauty in one’s mind’s eye, until you see it in real life. These people really are one in a hundred million or more.

  294. @danand

    ““Ugly” is a relative term for men.”

     

    Hypnotoad,

    What’s seems weird to me is that Ric Okasek, minus the ears, actually looks very ordinary in this high school photo. Most mens looks typically “peak” near their late 30’s; the age when, one could argue, Okasek looked his most awkward. Maybe too many amphetamines?

    https://flic.kr/p/2hgwess

    That’s amazing. That’s by far the best picture of Okasek that I’ve ever seen.

  295. @Steve Sailer
    Seger was real good. He had a bit of bad luck in that his dullest song "Old Time Rock and Roll" became his biggest hit. Compare it to his similar but better "Rock and Roll Never Forgets." He wasn't quite the lyricist Springsteen was, but he was well above average.

    Seger probably had some bad luck as well in having the same peak years as a guy with the same initials. Not being quite as good as Bruce Springsteen isn't bad.

    I vaguely think he has had some lengthy court battles over the rights to his songs that may be keeping his reputation lower than it could be.

    Seger basically semi-retired in the mid-80s & retired from 1996, until his 2006 comeback. He routinely outsold Springsteen in his prime & crushed him in radio play. That played a large part in Seger’s overall decline concerning his public image.

    Seger’s 3 albums since 2006 are better by far than anything Bruce has wrote in 20 years.

    In any event, by all measures, Bruce’s voice was below average to terrible…Seger has one of the greatest, most versatile voices in rock history. It’s music after all, and I’m not big on listening to someone like Springsteen straining to just sound painful.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Seger is the better singer, his music is workmanlike and competent but you can see he's the kind of guy who could work a blue collar job. Bruce is, for all his posing and nonsense, at a higher level artistially, he's thinking in a more abstract way. And at his best he made some good thinking man's rock and roll records. Seger's music is what it is, entertaining, but has no deeper level you can think about. Not better or worse but simpler, more straight forward.
    , @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Springsteen's problem is that he takes himself waaaaay too seriously. He's like Jackson Browne & James Taylor: ok, they had 10-15 years of good song craft, but their egos tell them to start lecturing us about politics, philosophy, religion, civil rights etc.
    Springsteen's last good material was in 1987. Everything since has sounded tired, rehashed or too forced.
  296. @Simply Simon
    I was a member of a US Army band in 1947-48, and most, if not all of us band members were big Stan Kenton fans. Many of his hit were on 78RPM Capitol Records. His music was called Progressive Jazz and he produced what to some people seemed weird arrangements. He did have capable musicians and an attractive female vocalist named June Christie. One concert I well remember was at the Mosque in Richmond Virginia, a very ornate theater indeed. I believe it still functions as a theater.

    Wow, what a great age – too young for WWII, too old for Korea (I assume), not that they were going to send talented musicians to the front, and from the Depression birth cohort where there was not a lot of competition. But I assume you are pushing 90 now. I wish you continued good health. My MIL is 97 and still in pretty good shape (knock on wood) mentally and physically but the women seem to last longer.

    • Replies: @Simply Simon
    Thanks for the reply Jack D. I turned 91 in July, still in good health and have three women friends who seem to like me. Strangely enough, women seem more attracted to me now than when I was in my twenties. Besides reading blogs I play duplicate bridge and do the hard Sudoku puzzles.

    Our band leader was a Filipino Technical Sergeant who was with the Third Armored Division under General Patton during WWII. He was a member of a regimental band and played trumpet. Under Patton band members were also combat soldiers and M----- wore the combat infantryman badge and the Bronze Star with "V" attachment. He was married to an attractive red-head and we were stationed in that part of the country that still maintained Jim Crow laws but if he had a problem he did not tell us.
  297. @William Badwhite

    So we’re clear, Lynda Carter isn’t married to the film director.

     

    True. In a bizarre coincidence, there is more than one person named Robert Altman in the world. She's married to the BCCI lawyer. He was pretty big news circa 1991-92. He did the near-impossible: get charged federally, refuse to plea bargain, then be acquitted of all charges.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1984/10/08/robert-altman-joins-ranks-of-super-lawyers/8dedd88b-1138-4c79-8718-e9d19710bd75/

    She's also not married to this guy:

    http://www.altmanlawoffices.com/our-attorneys/robert-bob-altman/

    BCCI was a huge international scandal that got quickly hushed up probably because so many important people were involved. No one got punished. Shocking, I know.

  298. @JMcG
    I’ll bite, what about the time you bodyguarded Alice Cooper?

    I was in high school, and it was about this same September/October time of year. I got an after school job working security at one of the big,professionally produced haunted houses. Alice Cooper apparently had a stake in the venture and one night he appeared in person to sign autographs and do a promotional. As luck would have it, as we security personnel were suiting up and getting our assignments, the security boss pointed at me and said “You’re on Alice.” I intercepted him in the vestibule, ushered him to his signing table, and stood right by his side for several hours holding back his adoring fans until their appointed time. This is my lame claim to fame

    The point which occasioned this story is that he is an incredibly small man. I mean tiny. I mean you could probably pick him up with one arm and throw him over your shoulder. I was a bit taken aback by just how small he really was.

    And you know, I’ve never thought about this before, but looking back on it all now, I’m a little offended that he never asked to meet me or thank me or even shake my hand. I was a kid making 10 bucks an hour, putting my body on the line to guard a superstar. I never heard that he met or spoke with any of the staff. That’s kind of rude if you ask me.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    ... the time I body-guarded Alice Cooper. It’s a good story.
     
    WTF ?
    , @Reg Cæsar

    The point which occasioned this story is that he is an incredibly small man. I mean tiny. I mean you could probably pick him up with one arm and throw him over your shoulder.
     
    In contrast, Boy George is only six feet, but comes off as much bigger, according to someone I lodged with who'd sold something to the man early in his career. Fisticuffs run in the O'Dowd family.
  299. @Autochthon

    Described as having a voice from God (he really does; it’s incredible)...he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook[;] all beefy and sweaty[,] he looks like a pig.
     
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wDyK-Nnwn0Q/maxresdefault.jpg

    http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Tara+LeVox+52nd+Annual+ASCAP+Country+Music+kbSLQPv3zLbl.jpg

    http://adeleisfat.weebly.com/uploads/7/9/2/1/7921072/2422916_orig.jpg

    Those with truly amazing pipes are sometimes allowed to be tubby and make it big....

    Rockstars are, by definition, though, outliers. Go to any music department at a university and most of the best vocalists are chubby if not obese; this trend holds even among the majority of working singers – in night clubs, musical theatre, and so on (it's harder to make it big on Broadway or sell out arenas, though, without being attractive, too). I've often suspected one reason the guys in Kiss adopted the gimmick of the make-up is that they cleverly realised how ugly they were, and used it to avoid competing with the pretty boys of glam-rock who reigned supreme at the time. Peter Gabriel was a very handsome young man who nevertheless adopted make-up and masks, and even that crazily shaven hair with nothing but success to show for it – still, his peak commercial fame came later, when he cut his hair, took off the make-up, and began dressing like the leading man for a romantic comedy from central casting (around the time of So.

    Is there any single trait that can make life so dramatically difficult or easy as the mere accident of being born ugly or gorgeous? I really don't think there is....

    Those with truly amazing pipes are sometimes allowed to be tubby and make it big….

    Is there any single trait that can make life so dramatically difficult or easy as the mere accident of being born ugly or gorgeous? I really don’t think there is….

    This is a fascinating conundrum.

    Here’s an interesting test case. There’s a Christian singer named David Phelps; he’s got a remarkable tenor voice — tremendous range, good technique (he’s classically-trained), and a nice warm tone (for a tenor).

    When he broke out, he was pretty chubby. He looked, in fact, much older than his years — he was also balding — and resembled a Texas short-order cook. He sang with the Gaither Vocal Band for quite a few years.

    Then he was suddenly skinny, he floofed out his hair somehow, and he went solo, although he’s been back with the Gaithers off and on. But to me, he just does not sound as good as he did when he was fatter. His voice has lost some richness and attractiveness, although he seems to have retained most of the range.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    I'm friendly with a couple of professional cantors and they have told me the same thing. One of them, also a tenor, lost 60-70 lbs. and he said he lost a lot of timbre from his voice.
    , @Autochthon
    This change is not your imagination.

    The reason big people are often good vocalists is because they have larger instruments; more resonation from the diaphragm.

    Think of how a a gong is louder than a triangle; or a bass (drum) is richer, as you put it, than a small tom.
  300. @The Last Real Calvinist
    A music star's good looks, or lack thereof, is one theme in 'The Commitments', a movie I'm very fond of.

    The lead singer of the eponymous group is a 17-year-old who's described as having a voice from God (he really does; it's incredible). As an adolescent guy who's becoming a star, he expects girls to fall at his feet, but the problem is that he looks like a 45-year-old Irish short-order cook. He's got none of that gamine rock star look going for him. Instead, he's all beefy and sweaty, and the girls in the band think he looks like a pig.

    https://tageswoche.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/imagescms-image-004725278-980x653.jpg

    Harry Nilsson, who didn’t look all that bad, like an oversized Swedish gnome, had a perfectly respectable and remunerative career entirely in the studio.

  301. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @northeast
    Seger basically semi-retired in the mid-80s & retired from 1996, until his 2006 comeback. He routinely outsold Springsteen in his prime & crushed him in radio play. That played a large part in Seger's overall decline concerning his public image.

    Seger's 3 albums since 2006 are better by far than anything Bruce has wrote in 20 years.

    In any event, by all measures, Bruce's voice was below average to terrible...Seger has one of the greatest, most versatile voices in rock history. It's music after all, and I'm not big on listening to someone like Springsteen straining to just sound painful.

    Seger is the better singer, his music is workmanlike and competent but you can see he’s the kind of guy who could work a blue collar job. Bruce is, for all his posing and nonsense, at a higher level artistially, he’s thinking in a more abstract way. And at his best he made some good thinking man’s rock and roll records. Seger’s music is what it is, entertaining, but has no deeper level you can think about. Not better or worse but simpler, more straight forward.

    • Replies: @northeast
    People miss that Bob, for the most part, writes about interpersonal relationships, whereas Bruce writes political, ideological driven material. Seger turns a phrase as well as anyone, his sparse use of words does not mean his work is less meaningful, or profound than anything Bruce wrote. Bob uses the language more economically, thankfully.

    I have always felt Springsteen's so-called more cerebral work was nothing but a mishmash of leftist bromides, but to each his own.

    A figure no less than Bob Dylan considers Seger to be Springsteen's equal, or better. Bob has over 700 unreleased songs & when he gets around to putting that product out I expect his place in the music world will be upgraded significantly.
    , @JMcG
    Seger released The Fire Inside in the early 90’s if I remember correctly. It’s a really terrific record. I’ll agree that his music is pretty simple, but he’s a great lyricist.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    "Bruce is, for all his posing and nonsense, at a higher level artistically, he’s thinking in a more abstract way"

    Is abstract thinking a sign of higher artistic level? Songs are surely meant to be felt, not thought about.

    You don't have to know any Occitan to feel this emotional piece, on the most basic of subjects.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfdorvMeMBI

    A little shepherdess is sitting at the top of the woods
    Awaiting her lover, but he does not come!
    "Alas, I am deserted!
    I do not see my lover
    I thought he loved me, and I loved him so !"
    When the star comes out, the first star of evening,
    the poor shepherdess is still there, weeping
  302. @Reg Cæsar

    Eddie Money... came from a clan of New York cops and had briefly been a cop himself.
     
    Boy George came from a clan of Irish boxers, and was briefly one himself:


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jan/16/boy-george-sentenced-handcuffing-male-escort


    You’ll note from his age that Ocasek didn’t hit it big until his mid-30s...
     
    Others in that position were Sting, Ian Hunter, Debbie Harry, Cindy Lauper, Sheryl Crow, Pat Benatar, and, in a way, Bruce Springsteen. He had an early career as a cult figure, but had a four-year break due to contractual problems before hitting the big time. I was one of his earliest fans, and one of his earliest ex-fans.

    No one else I knew recognized Manfred Mann's "douche" cover as Springsteen.

    No one else I knew recognized Manfred Mann’s “douche” cover as Springsteen.

    Thanks for the memories. One of my older sisters (a young teenager at the time) was an early, huge fan of Bruce Springsteen and constantly playing that “Greetings from Asbury Park” album so I had memorized “Blinded By the Light” by the end of 1974. At the time I kept asking her what the lyrics meant, but never got any satisfactory answers (even to this day as I remind her on most Thanksgiving dinners). A couple of years later I was completely baffled by the Manfred Mann success and the word “douche” when it was supposed to be “deuce.”

    At the same time another older sister (again, a young teenager) was in love with Elton John and playing his “Goodbye Yellow Brick Road” album whenever Bruce Springsteen wasn’t blaring from the record player in their room. So I memorized most of those songs too, but whenever I had a question about the lyrics she would just hand me the double album cover (which they both covered with foil and used for tanning purposes prior to prom time), open it up to the lyrics and tell me to figure it out. When I kept asking her, “Why do “All the Young Girls Love Alice”?”, she would tell me to “shut up” and tell me take out the newspapers or feed the dog.

    I was completely oblivious and somewhat annoyed with their infatuation with Bruce Springsteen and Elton John because I found this Saturday morning cartoon far more entertaining than any of their lyrics:

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    A couple of years later I was completely baffled by the Manfred Mann success and the word “douche” when it was supposed to be “deuce.”
     
    Mann, like Spencer Davis, Dave Clark, Paul Revere, Edgar Winter, Elvin Bishop, Alan Parsons, and a few others, led an eponymous band in which someone else was the lead singer.

    In this case, it was Chris Thompson. (Paul Jones and Mike D'Abo sang for Mann in the '60s.) Thompson is from Kent, so it is more likely a speech impediment than a local accent.
    , @R.G. Camara
    For years, I interpreted "Blinded by the Light" as a song about a bunch of bar flies drinking in a dark pub middle of the day with few windows and then they are collected "blinded" by the light of someone opening the door to come in and the sun shining into their eyes. Most of the descriptions of the people mentioned seemed to be from the point of view of the songwriter observing them drinking and scheming.

    So kind of like "Piano Man".

    But Springsteen has given an explanation for the song that doesn't support this at all. Sad!
  303. @Bostonvegas
    Serious question.What percent of people get goosebumps while listening to music they like? Of the seven people in my family i seem to be the only one.While i liked the Cars(even weirdly been to his houses in brookline and nantucket) they never gave the goosebumps that other groups did to me.

    I like rock music and I like the Cars, but it does not give me goose bumps.

    I saw Renee Fleming sing this earlier this year, and it gave me goose bumps.

    The most beautiful duet ever written. Saw this live but sadly not these two:

    • Replies: @Bubba
    I'll miss Ric Ocazek. In high school we always played "The Cars" at parties. Even in college we played "Magic" often as it was one of the non-official songs of Summer in 1984. Fun and great memories...

    As for Roberto Alagna - I'm no fan as he's a real drama queen (and quite a nasty little fellow too) and he's lost most of his range over the years. As the late Herbert Breslin said of Roberto Alagna, “(he) was supposed to be the Second Coming. It turned out he wasn’t even the Fourth Coming.” Today “He doesn’t even sell out at the Met.”

    As for the best opera duet, my favorite is "Se inclinassi a prender moglie" from ""The Italian Girl in Algiers" sung by Frank Lopardo and Ruggero Raimondi on a Deutche Grammophon recording (it's on iTunes). The song is absolutely brilliant with those two talented opera singers, but unfortunately I never heard it sung live by them.

    This is a good rendition of it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWZPDbqDmZo
    , @JerseyJeffersonian
    Thanks for these performances. I am with you in your experiences of goose bumps when hearing the work of great classical vocalists performing masterworks.

    I can say I have had the good fortune to be present for two such happy occasions. The first of these was a performance by Jessye Norman with the Philadelphia Orchestra, conducted if I remember aright, by Riccardo Muti at the Academy of Music, the longtime home of the orchestra, and a performance space with a highly felicitous acoustic for opera and orchestral song. The work performed was Les nuits d'été, composed by Hector Berlioz. I was rapt, and the hair stood up on the back of my neck as I listened to the artistry of Ms Norman, accompanied with such delicacy and understanding by that great orchestra under the baton of Maestro Muti.

    The second occasion was in London at the Covent Garden Opera House, and the vocalist of renown here was Beverly Sills. The programmed work was Donizetti's Lucia di Lammermoor, and the moment of glory from Ms Sills came in her performance in the amazing Mad Scene. She made her entrance at the head of a long, curving stairway, clad in a white bridal gown drenched in the blood of the man she had stabbed after having been forced to marry. The dramatic scene itself was extraordinary, but the vocal mastery that she exhibited as she slowly descended that grand staircase was stunning in its concentration. This is among the greatest of coloratura arias, and her performance rose to the challenge.

    Both of these occasions are etched in my memory.
  304. @Intelligent Dasein
    I was in high school, and it was about this same September/October time of year. I got an after school job working security at one of the big,professionally produced haunted houses. Alice Cooper apparently had a stake in the venture and one night he appeared in person to sign autographs and do a promotional. As luck would have it, as we security personnel were suiting up and getting our assignments, the security boss pointed at me and said "You're on Alice." I intercepted him in the vestibule, ushered him to his signing table, and stood right by his side for several hours holding back his adoring fans until their appointed time. This is my lame claim to fame

    The point which occasioned this story is that he is an incredibly small man. I mean tiny. I mean you could probably pick him up with one arm and throw him over your shoulder. I was a bit taken aback by just how small he really was.

    And you know, I've never thought about this before, but looking back on it all now, I'm a little offended that he never asked to meet me or thank me or even shake my hand. I was a kid making 10 bucks an hour, putting my body on the line to guard a superstar. I never heard that he met or spoke with any of the staff. That's kind of rude if you ask me.

    … the time I body-guarded Alice Cooper. It’s a good story.

    WTF ?

  305. @J.Ross
    Van Zandt is one of the few celebrities who looks like he could respond to harassment with undocumented dentistry even as an old man.

    If you like Steve Van Zandt, check him out in the hilarious Lilyhammer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilyhammer

    Thanks to all who recommended Ghettoside. I read it this past week and it was eye opening.

  306. @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Yeah, they seemed like a band that mostly loved the studio. Experimenting with the synths, and perfecting the recording mix. When you watch some of the documentary bits (on youtube) covering the early years of the band, they got jinxed in Europe around 1979 by bad press which framed them as Corporate Rock, too produced, too slick & heavily marketed.
    Apparently Ben Orr had a drug habit that got quite bad for a few years but it's not clear if that was causative in his cancer & death 20 years ago.
    In retrospect, Ric has done well to reach 75. He accomplished a lot.
    Hope they release a DVD of their 1982 performance at the US Festival. Only two songs of it on youtube. So much of the US Festival footage is being held hostage by recording labels, various legal squabbles.

    Wow. This calls to mind a memory. 35 years ago when I was driving a cab in New York, some music bigwig got into my cab and we started talking. He was somehow involved with the Cars and he said they all hated each other. Refused to even work together. He said that by this time, for recordings the fundamental base and rhythm track would be sent by mail (Fedex?) to each of them in turn and they would record their parts separately. I recall him saying that the Cars were Ocasek’s band. I never followed the Cars or bought any of their records. In my mind, just like Eddie Money and Tom Petty they were a “new” band.

  307. @Steve Sailer
    Seger was real good. He had a bit of bad luck in that his dullest song "Old Time Rock and Roll" became his biggest hit. Compare it to his similar but better "Rock and Roll Never Forgets." He wasn't quite the lyricist Springsteen was, but he was well above average.

    Seger probably had some bad luck as well in having the same peak years as a guy with the same initials. Not being quite as good as Bruce Springsteen isn't bad.

    I vaguely think he has had some lengthy court battles over the rights to his songs that may be keeping his reputation lower than it could be.

    Seger was a more authentic blue collar guy that Bruce and he had some excellent insights:

  308. @Lurker
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSUX9byu6NY

    Those very talented kids were wonderful and I wonder what they are doing now. I think they may have gotten their name from this 1993 Wallace and Gromit skit:

    https://www.sandiegoreader.com/bands/wrong-trousers/#

  309. @Anonymous
    Seger is the better singer, his music is workmanlike and competent but you can see he's the kind of guy who could work a blue collar job. Bruce is, for all his posing and nonsense, at a higher level artistially, he's thinking in a more abstract way. And at his best he made some good thinking man's rock and roll records. Seger's music is what it is, entertaining, but has no deeper level you can think about. Not better or worse but simpler, more straight forward.

    People miss that Bob, for the most part, writes about interpersonal relationships, whereas Bruce writes political, ideological driven material. Seger turns a phrase as well as anyone, his sparse use of words does not mean his work is less meaningful, or profound than anything Bruce wrote. Bob uses the language more economically, thankfully.

    I have always felt Springsteen’s so-called more cerebral work was nothing but a mishmash of leftist bromides, but to each his own.

    A figure no less than Bob Dylan considers Seger to be Springsteen’s equal, or better. Bob has over 700 unreleased songs & when he gets around to putting that product out I expect his place in the music world will be upgraded significantly.

  310. @Steve Sailer
    Seger was real good. He had a bit of bad luck in that his dullest song "Old Time Rock and Roll" became his biggest hit. Compare it to his similar but better "Rock and Roll Never Forgets." He wasn't quite the lyricist Springsteen was, but he was well above average.

    Seger probably had some bad luck as well in having the same peak years as a guy with the same initials. Not being quite as good as Bruce Springsteen isn't bad.

    I vaguely think he has had some lengthy court battles over the rights to his songs that may be keeping his reputation lower than it could be.

    Seger was real good. He had a bit of bad luck in that his dullest song “Old Time Rock and Roll” became his biggest hit.

    That wasn’t his song. It was written by two hacks for a movie, and Seger was hired to sing it. That’s why it doesn’t sound much like the rest of Seger. (I’d tell friends I agreed with the song, but still hated it.)

    I looked up the songwriters in Dick Jacobs’s massive reference book of song hits and don’t remember either of them credited with anything else. And the Jacobs book is quite thorough.

    In contrast, “Jet Airliner”, written by Paul Pena, sounds like typical Steve Miller, except more articulate lyrically and musically.

    “I Got a Name” was written by veteran Hollywood writers Norman Gimbel and Charles Fox, who also wrote “Killing Me Softly”. The former fit Jim Croce almost perfectly.

    Sometimes a band’s least representative song becomes their calling card, and they’re stuck with it. Stories had “Brother Louie”, and the Knack “My Sharona”, for example. The other members of REO hated “Keep On Loving You”, but Kevin Cronin forced it upon them. I doubt they resented the performance royalties.

    • Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Seger claims he could have had a co-writing credit for Old Time Rock & Roll because of some small tweaks he made to it. But he declined, and end up forfeiting millions in royalties. He never expected it to be anywhere as big a hit as it became. Who knew Risky Business would immortalize it.
    , @JMcG
    Wow, I never knew that wasn’t a Seger song. I do hate it though.
    , @ScarletNumber

    I looked up the songwriters [of Old Time Rock and Roll] in Dick Jacobs’s massive reference book of song hits and don’t remember either of them credited with anything else.
     
    George Jackson also wrote One Bad Apple for the Jackson 5 who passed on it. He then took it to The Osmonds who made it a #1 hit.

    Sometimes a band’s least representative song becomes their calling card
     
    Someone mentioned Extreme upthread, and their biggest hit was More Than Words. Then again, the power ballad of a metal band is common enough to be a cliche.
  311. @J.Ross
    Van Zandt is one of the few celebrities who looks like he could respond to harassment with undocumented dentistry even as an old man.

    From what I understand there is no question that he can and if provoked might. But is a decent guy if not abused.

  312. @northeast
    Seger basically semi-retired in the mid-80s & retired from 1996, until his 2006 comeback. He routinely outsold Springsteen in his prime & crushed him in radio play. That played a large part in Seger's overall decline concerning his public image.

    Seger's 3 albums since 2006 are better by far than anything Bruce has wrote in 20 years.

    In any event, by all measures, Bruce's voice was below average to terrible...Seger has one of the greatest, most versatile voices in rock history. It's music after all, and I'm not big on listening to someone like Springsteen straining to just sound painful.

    Springsteen’s problem is that he takes himself waaaaay too seriously. He’s like Jackson Browne & James Taylor: ok, they had 10-15 years of good song craft, but their egos tell them to start lecturing us about politics, philosophy, religion, civil rights etc.
    Springsteen’s last good material was in 1987. Everything since has sounded tired, rehashed or too forced.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Bruce thinks he is the duly elected Pope of Rock and Roll and behaves accordingly.

    No, really he does.
    , @Dave Pinsen

    Springsteen’s last good material was in 1987. Everything since has sounded tired, rehashed or too forced.
     
    Audiences seem to disagree. Here’s “Waitin’ On A Sunny Day” (released in 2002):

    https://youtu.be/GWwlNnuJq2Q
  313. Never heard about The Cars. I grew up with Beat Dis

    and Paul Hardcastle

    And we never looked back.

  314. @Reg Cæsar

    Seger was real good. He had a bit of bad luck in that his dullest song “Old Time Rock and Roll” became his biggest hit.
     
    That wasn't his song. It was written by two hacks for a movie, and Seger was hired to sing it. That's why it doesn't sound much like the rest of Seger. (I'd tell friends I agreed with the song, but still hated it.)

    I looked up the songwriters in Dick Jacobs's massive reference book of song hits and don't remember either of them credited with anything else. And the Jacobs book is quite thorough.

    In contrast, "Jet Airliner", written by Paul Pena, sounds like typical Steve Miller, except more articulate lyrically and musically.

    "I Got a Name" was written by veteran Hollywood writers Norman Gimbel and Charles Fox, who also wrote "Killing Me Softly". The former fit Jim Croce almost perfectly.

    Sometimes a band's least representative song becomes their calling card, and they're stuck with it. Stories had "Brother Louie", and the Knack "My Sharona", for example. The other members of REO hated "Keep On Loving You", but Kevin Cronin forced it upon them. I doubt they resented the performance royalties.

    Seger claims he could have had a co-writing credit for Old Time Rock & Roll because of some small tweaks he made to it. But he declined, and end up forfeiting millions in royalties. He never expected it to be anywhere as big a hit as it became. Who knew Risky Business would immortalize it.