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This reminds me of Noam Chomsky’s joke from 1999:

For some time, I’ve been compelled to arrange speaking engagements long in advance. Sometimes a title is requested for a talk scheduled several years ahead. There is, I’ve found, one title that always works: “The current crisis in the Middle East.”

 
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  1. Here in Germany they regularly show the news program from 20 years ago — just a rerun of the eight o’clock news t-20. My niece recently caught an episode and told me it was hard to tell the difference from today’s news: The main topics were climate change and delays in finishing Berlin’s new airport.

    • LOL: Digital Samizdat
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    And did the report on climate change predict mass extinction in 20 years should carbon emissions not end?
    , @Reg Cæsar

    ...and delays in finishing Berlin’s new airport.
     
    It will still beat the Omsk Metro and that bullet train in the California Republic.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_FiJOxYHuJk

    , @danand

    "The main topics were climate change"
     
    Lemmus, could be re-running for quite a while:

    "Germany, where coal, hard coal, and lignite combined currently provide around 35 percent of power generation, has a longer timetable for phasing out coal than the UK and Italy, for example—who plan their coal exit by 2025—not only because of its vast coal industry, but also because Germany will shut down all its nuclear power plants within the next three years."

     

    https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Germany-Aims-To-Close-All-Nuclear-Plants-By-2022.html
    , @Lot
    Watching random episodes of CBS or NBC evening news from decades ago is interesting on YouTube. Brings one back to the actual feel and mindset of the era in a way written histories can’t.

    The tone and content in the early 80s was very hostile to Reagan and similar to Trump’s coverage. They had a little more substance to work with back then however, as the 1982 recession was short (16 months), but extremely deep, with double digit unemployment and mortgage rates.

    “The unemployment rate for auto workers rose from just 3.8% in early-1978 to 24% by the end of 1982; construction worker unemployment peaked at 22% during the same time.”
    , @bigdicknick
    On another forum I frequent someone recently posted an Observer article from 2004 about climate change predicting nuclear war and England under water by 2020. Here it is:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2004/feb/22/usnews.theobserver

    Imagine if we made public policy based on what the moonbats were saying in 2004 about climate change. That it was literally a life of death struggle and failure to act would mean we are all dead.

    We will probably be hearing in 2040 that we have to stop climate change immediately or England will be underwater by 2060.
    , @J.Ross
    The exact opposite effect used to be viewable on a now censored YouTube channel which might have been saved on another platform. A righteously angry black Hotep would replay local TV evening news from the 70s and 80s. If the suspect of a violent crime was black, they would call him black, and they might show his face or a police drawing. People were startlingly frank. One pseudo-intellectual professor who studied pimps comes off as the crank he is when he hurriedly babbles about pimps being "trickster-heroes." Blacks are well dressed and actually speak English. There are homeless people, but you have to find them, they don't confront you or shower you in Toronto gold.
  2. “Newspaper headline,
    ‘Middle East Deadline’,
    Jazz musicians are down on the breadline.”

    “Soho (Needless to Say)”, Al Stewart, British folkie still active , from Past, Present, and Future.

    1973.

    Happy New Year all.

    • Replies: @G. Poulin
    Was that the guy who did "Year of the Cat"?
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    It's great to see another Al Stewart fan here, Jack! That is the more obscure stuff. I did not know these lyrics either, though I own Past, Present, and Future. My chronic lyricosis has been flaring up lately. Favorites from that album: 1) Nostradamus (of course), 2) Roads to Moscow, and 3) Warren Gamaliel Harding.
  3. I like to say that on the day I was born (in 1953) the headline was “Trouble in the Middle East” and on the day I die (whenever that might be) the headline is likely to be the same.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    In 1953, Uncle Sam didn’t like the outcome of an Iranian election, and installed the Shah, who ruled until 1979. If the government of Iran in that year had replaced President Eisenhower with a king, would you have accepted it?

    Americans should be ashamed of what has been done in their name to the Middle East for your entire life. Instead, most of us — if we pay any attention at all — smugly look down on those resisting Washington.

  4. The Middle East will always be in crisis and has always been. Why bother?

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    The Middle East will always be in crisis and has always been.
     
    This is mistaken. The chief source of conflict in the region has been the Jews’ conquest of Palestine. That project is now nearing completion. Expect calmer times ahead, ceterus paribus. Steve’s snark is unwarranted.
  5. I was about to ask….when is the ME NOT in chaos?

    • Agree: kikz
  6. Will it be as tumultuous as Ilhan Omar’s love life?,

  7. “Middle East” is really ill-defined and these days can go as far as Kazahkstand and Murrocco, which is completely ridiculous.

    This “MSM Middle East” is an enormous area with a lot of cynical local players and foreign grand players who have the war socialism and paper money to act as well as the media pipes to generate narratives and focus or defocus attention.

    While the peons try to make do.

    • Replies: @Prester John
    That part of the world used to be geographically fine-tuned by the "experts" so that it was divided into "Near" and "Middle" East, with the former including those countries hugging the shores of the Red and Mediterranean Seas (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel etc.) and the latter including Iraq, Iran and even Pakistan. Yeah, now one can include all of North Africa in the former case and Kazakhstan in the latter.

    Anyway you cut it, it's all arbitrary horse dung.
  8. “Expect a tumultuous 2020 in the Middle East”

    That kind of insight is why they’re an elite paper. I keep hearing the 2020s will have lots of upheaval. Financial ruin, war, etc. But I don’t see a big crash coming. Probably just stagnation or slow growth.

    However, by 2028, the WaPo may look back to the days of Trump with nostalgia. The political polarization continues apace.

    • Replies: @Brutus
    I remember being advised that the Clinton years will be looked on the same way.

    Brutus
  9. The recent protesters at the US Embassy are so obviously backed by the CIA and/or the State Department. I mean, even the slogan they are shouting, “Death to America” is totally Hollywood.

    • Replies: @Prester John
    Well, at the very least I hope that they've learned their lesson and aren't sporting crew cuts and wearing white socks like the crew who were directed to infiltrate "The Movement" during the late Sixties.
    , @J.Ross
    The coverage is mysterious.
    We are told that we must take the steps necessary to pertek ar chrupes. Why would they need any protection if they were home? Why are we talking about this, instead of that priority to which troop welfare is secondary -- mission accomplishment? What is the mission here? Is it get shot so folks back home are okay with ten more years of war? If that's the case, why not strip our soldiers of all protection?
    We are told that we must get Iranian influence out of Iraq. The speaker was perhaps unaware that one third of the population of Iraq is militantly Iranian-allied while being nationally, genealogically, culinarily, governmentally, linguistically, residentially, authentically Iraqi. You saw how that worked in German Czecho-Slovakia.
    , @El Dato
    Nah, that's standard Iranian sloganeering since at the Revolution. Nothing special or surprising.
  10. Hey wait — how can you be here when your show is on live?

  11. Al Stewart, British folkie still active

    It’s the wine. He’s an œnophile who settled in the Napa Valley.

  12. 1. Stop referring to these people as elite

    2. That account has 50k followers and gets single digit engagements lmao

  13. @LemmusLemmus
    Here in Germany they regularly show the news program from 20 years ago -- just a rerun of the eight o'clock news t-20. My niece recently caught an episode and told me it was hard to tell the difference from today's news: The main topics were climate change and delays in finishing Berlin's new airport.

    And did the report on climate change predict mass extinction in 20 years should carbon emissions not end?

    • Replies: @(((Owen)))
    We have only 12 years to avoid total disaster now, so it follows that in 2000 the climate change alarm was telling us that we had only 32 years to avoid total disaster.
    , @LemmusLemmus
    Don't know -- didn't ask.
    , @SFG
    Come on, every year is the hottest year on record. We get two or three giant hurricanes a year when they used to come every few years.

    Just because the left is wrong on lots of stuff, doesn't mean they're wrong on everything. As Derb says, some things are true even though the Party says they are.
  14. Maybe it’s a forewarning of Israel and their neocon lackeys in the West using the cover of the election to instigate ‘Lebanese Civil War 2: This Time The Christians Are Really Doomed’.

    There have been a few half-hearted attempts to kick things off recently but every time the explanation that the sudden sectarian terrorism was an Israeli plot seems to have been accepted and no retribution sought. But the pressure brought has been very low, if it was kicked up, a new conflict might emerge, particularly with Syria dying down.

  15. Also OT: Theres a mini meltdown on ROGD twitter (Really just 15-21 yr old BPD twitter) about a new study that many trans children display some gender atypical play and thus this proves they are transgender.

    But the ROGDs are angry since they always were normal girls but found claiming to be trans a coping mechanism for their severe cluster B personality disorders. Can we ever talk about how transmen are just 90% women with BPD?

  16. And from 150+ years ago, here’s Melville

    “And, doubtless, my going on this whaling voyage,
    formed part of the grand programme of Providence that was drawn up a
    long time ago. It came in as a sort of brief interlude and solo
    between more extensive performances. I take it that this part of the
    bill must have run something like this:

    “GRAND CONTESTED ELECTION FOR THE PRESIDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES.
    “WHALING VOYAGE BY ONE ISHMAEL.
    “BLOODY BATTLE IN AFGHANISTAN.”

    • Thanks: Haruto Rat
  17. @LemmusLemmus
    Here in Germany they regularly show the news program from 20 years ago -- just a rerun of the eight o'clock news t-20. My niece recently caught an episode and told me it was hard to tell the difference from today's news: The main topics were climate change and delays in finishing Berlin's new airport.

    …and delays in finishing Berlin’s new airport.

    It will still beat the Omsk Metro and that bullet train in the California Republic.

    • Replies: @LemmusLemmus
    That remains to be seen. They now say it'll be finished by the end of 2020, but I'll believe it when I see it. I doubt they'll fill the airport with sand, though.
  18. Tony Heller on RealClimateScience.com also enjoys presenting evergreen headlines that scream “catastrophe!”

    Arctic sea ice is disappearing!
    https://realclimatescience.com/2019/12/near-record-fraudulent-arctic-reporting/

    “_____________” is warming TWICE as fast as the rest of the planet!
    https://realclimatescience.com/2019/12/warming-twice-as-fast/

    The Maldive Islands are drowning! every thirty years
    https://realclimatescience.com/2019/12/new-video-maldives-to-drown-every-30-years/

  19. “The current achievement gap crisis”

  20. Will Donald Trump retreat from Baghdad like Ronald Reagan retreated from Beirut after the 1983 attack on the U.S. Marine barracks?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'Will Donald Trump retreat from Baghdad like Ronald Reagan retreated from Beirut after the 1983 attack on the U.S. Marine barracks?'

    One can hope.
  21. @BB753
    The Middle East will always be in crisis and has always been. Why bother?

    The Middle East will always be in crisis and has always been.

    This is mistaken. The chief source of conflict in the region has been the Jews’ conquest of Palestine. That project is now nearing completion. Expect calmer times ahead, ceterus paribus. Steve’s snark is unwarranted.

    • Replies: @Paul
    "Expect calmer times ahead"


    LOL. Sometime after the second coming.
    , @Herzog
    BS. Iraqi Arabs don't hate Kurds because of Israel. Sunnis don't hate Shias (and vice versa) because of Israel. Yemenis don't hate Saudis (and vice versa) because of Israel. Northern Sudanese Arabs didn't kill about million Southern Sudanese and Darfuri non-Arabs because of Israel. Etc. etc.
    , @El Dato
    Nobody cares about the Palestinians.

    Didn't you watch TV back when Druze militias ran a Warshaw Ghetto show on the side and Israel just stood by, smoking cigs, even providing night-time illumination?

    https://youtu.be/fh2cDKyFdyU?t=1671
  22. @El Dato
    "Middle East" is really ill-defined and these days can go as far as Kazahkstand and Murrocco, which is completely ridiculous.

    This "MSM Middle East" is an enormous area with a lot of cynical local players and foreign grand players who have the war socialism and paper money to act as well as the media pipes to generate narratives and focus or defocus attention.

    While the peons try to make do.

    That part of the world used to be geographically fine-tuned by the “experts” so that it was divided into “Near” and “Middle” East, with the former including those countries hugging the shores of the Red and Mediterranean Seas (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel etc.) and the latter including Iraq, Iran and even Pakistan. Yeah, now one can include all of North Africa in the former case and Kazakhstan in the latter.

    Anyway you cut it, it’s all arbitrary horse dung.

  23. @rexl
    The recent protesters at the US Embassy are so obviously backed by the CIA and/or the State Department. I mean, even the slogan they are shouting, "Death to America" is totally Hollywood.

    Well, at the very least I hope that they’ve learned their lesson and aren’t sporting crew cuts and wearing white socks like the crew who were directed to infiltrate “The Movement” during the late Sixties.

  24. @LemmusLemmus
    Here in Germany they regularly show the news program from 20 years ago -- just a rerun of the eight o'clock news t-20. My niece recently caught an episode and told me it was hard to tell the difference from today's news: The main topics were climate change and delays in finishing Berlin's new airport.

    “The main topics were climate change”

    Lemmus, could be re-running for quite a while:

    Germany, where coal, hard coal, and lignite combined currently provide around 35 percent of power generation, has a longer timetable for phasing out coal than the UK and Italy, for example—who plan their coal exit by 2025—not only because of its vast coal industry, but also because Germany will shut down all its nuclear power plants within the next three years.”

    https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Germany-Aims-To-Close-All-Nuclear-Plants-By-2022.html

  25. This year’s Tournament of Roses theme is “The Power of Hope”. I take it this is nostalgia for the Obama years, and likely a salvo in the presidential campaign.

    If it’s the latter, it should really have been titled “The Hope of Power”.

  26. @Anonymous

    The Middle East will always be in crisis and has always been.
     
    This is mistaken. The chief source of conflict in the region has been the Jews’ conquest of Palestine. That project is now nearing completion. Expect calmer times ahead, ceterus paribus. Steve’s snark is unwarranted.

    “Expect calmer times ahead”

    LOL. Sometime after the second coming.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    “Expect calmer times ahead”

    LOL. Sometime after the second coming.
     
    It was relatively calm before the Jews invaded. It will become calmer after the Jews have consolidated their rule and further vanquished those who would oppose them.
    , @JMcG
    Well that would certainly settle their hash.
  27. The “Middle East” has a tried-and-true recipe for perpetual trouble:

    Mix 1 part cousin marriage (consanguinity), 1 part Islam, with 2 parts Zionist Israel

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    The “Middle East” has a tried-and-true recipe for perpetual trouble:

    Mix 1 part cousin marriage (consanguinity), 1 part Islam, with 2 parts Zionist Israel
     
    One part Zionist Israel is the only necessary ingredient. Would any non-Muslim people take it lying down if Zionists invaded their country and sought to impose Jewish supremacy on them or tried to ethnically cleanse them.
  28. @LemmusLemmus
    Here in Germany they regularly show the news program from 20 years ago -- just a rerun of the eight o'clock news t-20. My niece recently caught an episode and told me it was hard to tell the difference from today's news: The main topics were climate change and delays in finishing Berlin's new airport.

    Watching random episodes of CBS or NBC evening news from decades ago is interesting on YouTube. Brings one back to the actual feel and mindset of the era in a way written histories can’t.

    The tone and content in the early 80s was very hostile to Reagan and similar to Trump’s coverage. They had a little more substance to work with back then however, as the 1982 recession was short (16 months), but extremely deep, with double digit unemployment and mortgage rates.

    “The unemployment rate for auto workers rose from just 3.8% in early-1978 to 24% by the end of 1982; construction worker unemployment peaked at 22% during the same time.”

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    '... The tone and content in the early 80s was very hostile to Reagan and similar to Trump’s coverage. They had a little more substance to work with back then however, as the 1982 recession was short (16 months), but extremely deep, with double digit unemployment and mortgage rates.

    “The unemployment rate for auto workers rose from just 3.8% in early-1978 to 24% by the end of 1982; construction worker unemployment peaked at 22% during the same time.”'

    I was trying to find work during that recession; not amusing.
    , @Kronos

    Watching random episodes of CBS or NBC evening news from decades ago is interesting on YouTube. Brings one back to the actual feel and mindset of the era in a way written histories can’t.
     
    I’m assuming it was still slanted toward focusing on urban issues than rural ones right?
  29. @LemmusLemmus
    Here in Germany they regularly show the news program from 20 years ago -- just a rerun of the eight o'clock news t-20. My niece recently caught an episode and told me it was hard to tell the difference from today's news: The main topics were climate change and delays in finishing Berlin's new airport.

    On another forum I frequent someone recently posted an Observer article from 2004 about climate change predicting nuclear war and England under water by 2020. Here it is:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2004/feb/22/usnews.theobserver

    Imagine if we made public policy based on what the moonbats were saying in 2004 about climate change. That it was literally a life of death struggle and failure to act would mean we are all dead.

    We will probably be hearing in 2040 that we have to stop climate change immediately or England will be underwater by 2060.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    On another forum I frequent someone recently posted an Observer article from 2004 about climate change predicting nuclear war and England under water by 2020.
     
    Nuclear war would lead to nuclear winter, which would indeed lead to climate change. But not in the direction they're preparing us for.

    I suppose England would be under ice, which would qualify as under water.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter#Producing_food_without_sunlight


    https://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/what-would-nuclear-winter-look.html
  30. @Harry Baldwin
    And did the report on climate change predict mass extinction in 20 years should carbon emissions not end?

    We have only 12 years to avoid total disaster now, so it follows that in 2000 the climate change alarm was telling us that we had only 32 years to avoid total disaster.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'We have only 12 years to avoid total disaster now, so it follows that in 2000 the climate change alarm was telling us that we had only 32 years to avoid total disaster.'

    It's like aging. Each year is almost the same as the one before, but...
  31. @JackOH
    "Newspaper headline,
    'Middle East Deadline',
    Jazz musicians are down on the breadline."

    "Soho (Needless to Say)", Al Stewart, British folkie still active , from Past, Present, and Future.

    1973.

    Happy New Year all.

    Was that the guy who did “Year of the Cat”?

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Yes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak_MTXQALa0
  32. @Paul
    Will Donald Trump retreat from Baghdad like Ronald Reagan retreated from Beirut after the 1983 attack on the U.S. Marine barracks?

    ‘Will Donald Trump retreat from Baghdad like Ronald Reagan retreated from Beirut after the 1983 attack on the U.S. Marine barracks?’

    One can hope.

    • Agree: TomSchmidt
  33. @(((Owen)))
    We have only 12 years to avoid total disaster now, so it follows that in 2000 the climate change alarm was telling us that we had only 32 years to avoid total disaster.

    ‘We have only 12 years to avoid total disaster now, so it follows that in 2000 the climate change alarm was telling us that we had only 32 years to avoid total disaster.’

    It’s like aging. Each year is almost the same as the one before, but…

  34. @Lot
    Watching random episodes of CBS or NBC evening news from decades ago is interesting on YouTube. Brings one back to the actual feel and mindset of the era in a way written histories can’t.

    The tone and content in the early 80s was very hostile to Reagan and similar to Trump’s coverage. They had a little more substance to work with back then however, as the 1982 recession was short (16 months), but extremely deep, with double digit unemployment and mortgage rates.

    “The unemployment rate for auto workers rose from just 3.8% in early-1978 to 24% by the end of 1982; construction worker unemployment peaked at 22% during the same time.”

    ‘… The tone and content in the early 80s was very hostile to Reagan and similar to Trump’s coverage. They had a little more substance to work with back then however, as the 1982 recession was short (16 months), but extremely deep, with double digit unemployment and mortgage rates.

    “The unemployment rate for auto workers rose from just 3.8% in early-1978 to 24% by the end of 1982; construction worker unemployment peaked at 22% during the same time.”’

    I was trying to find work during that recession; not amusing.

  35. @LemmusLemmus
    Here in Germany they regularly show the news program from 20 years ago -- just a rerun of the eight o'clock news t-20. My niece recently caught an episode and told me it was hard to tell the difference from today's news: The main topics were climate change and delays in finishing Berlin's new airport.

    The exact opposite effect used to be viewable on a now censored YouTube channel which might have been saved on another platform. A righteously angry black Hotep would replay local TV evening news from the 70s and 80s. If the suspect of a violent crime was black, they would call him black, and they might show his face or a police drawing. People were startlingly frank. One pseudo-intellectual professor who studied pimps comes off as the crank he is when he hurriedly babbles about pimps being “trickster-heroes.” Blacks are well dressed and actually speak English. There are homeless people, but you have to find them, they don’t confront you or shower you in Toronto gold.

  36. @rexl
    The recent protesters at the US Embassy are so obviously backed by the CIA and/or the State Department. I mean, even the slogan they are shouting, "Death to America" is totally Hollywood.

    The coverage is mysterious.
    We are told that we must take the steps necessary to pertek ar chrupes. Why would they need any protection if they were home? Why are we talking about this, instead of that priority to which troop welfare is secondary — mission accomplishment? What is the mission here? Is it get shot so folks back home are okay with ten more years of war? If that’s the case, why not strip our soldiers of all protection?
    We are told that we must get Iranian influence out of Iraq. The speaker was perhaps unaware that one third of the population of Iraq is militantly Iranian-allied while being nationally, genealogically, culinarily, governmentally, linguistically, residentially, authentically Iraqi. You saw how that worked in German Czecho-Slovakia.

  37. @Lot
    Watching random episodes of CBS or NBC evening news from decades ago is interesting on YouTube. Brings one back to the actual feel and mindset of the era in a way written histories can’t.

    The tone and content in the early 80s was very hostile to Reagan and similar to Trump’s coverage. They had a little more substance to work with back then however, as the 1982 recession was short (16 months), but extremely deep, with double digit unemployment and mortgage rates.

    “The unemployment rate for auto workers rose from just 3.8% in early-1978 to 24% by the end of 1982; construction worker unemployment peaked at 22% during the same time.”

    Watching random episodes of CBS or NBC evening news from decades ago is interesting on YouTube. Brings one back to the actual feel and mindset of the era in a way written histories can’t.

    I’m assuming it was still slanted toward focusing on urban issues than rural ones right?

  38. @Anonymous

    The Middle East will always be in crisis and has always been.
     
    This is mistaken. The chief source of conflict in the region has been the Jews’ conquest of Palestine. That project is now nearing completion. Expect calmer times ahead, ceterus paribus. Steve’s snark is unwarranted.

    BS. Iraqi Arabs don’t hate Kurds because of Israel. Sunnis don’t hate Shias (and vice versa) because of Israel. Yemenis don’t hate Saudis (and vice versa) because of Israel. Northern Sudanese Arabs didn’t kill about million Southern Sudanese and Darfuri non-Arabs because of Israel. Etc. etc.

    • Agree: BB753, El Dato
    • Replies: @anonymous
    How much time have you spent in those countries? If any, doing what?
    , @fnn
    But you do have to wonder how large Christian (and Yazidi and Jewish) communities were able to do fairly well under Muslim rule for over a millennium. What's a good book to read about that?
  39. We have only 12 years to avoid total disaster now,

    It’s worse than that!

    https://apnews.com/bd45c372caf118ec99964ea547880cd0

  40. “There is, I’ve found, one title that always works: “The current crisis in the Middle East.”

    Ironic smile.

  41. @JackOH
    "Newspaper headline,
    'Middle East Deadline',
    Jazz musicians are down on the breadline."

    "Soho (Needless to Say)", Al Stewart, British folkie still active , from Past, Present, and Future.

    1973.

    Happy New Year all.

    It’s great to see another Al Stewart fan here, Jack! That is the more obscure stuff. I did not know these lyrics either, though I own Past, Present, and Future. My chronic lyricosis has been flaring up lately. Favorites from that album: 1) Nostradamus (of course), 2) Roads to Moscow, and 3) Warren Gamaliel Harding.

    • Replies: @JackOH
    Yeah, pretty admirable guy. First saw him in D. C. in the 1970s; then a few times the last decade. He made money in a tough line of work. He showed courage by dropping confessional folk for historical folk, then again when he backed off that Top-40 friendly "Time Passages" stuff. Fine lyricist. A decent gent, and, maybe less recognized, he got damned lucky when a man needs a spot of luck.

    There are plenty of worse epitaphs out there, that's for sure.
  42. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tank
    I like to say that on the day I was born (in 1953) the headline was "Trouble in the Middle East" and on the day I die (whenever that might be) the headline is likely to be the same.

    In 1953, Uncle Sam didn’t like the outcome of an Iranian election, and installed the Shah, who ruled until 1979. If the government of Iran in that year had replaced President Eisenhower with a king, would you have accepted it?

    Americans should be ashamed of what has been done in their name to the Middle East for your entire life. Instead, most of us — if we pay any attention at all — smugly look down on those resisting Washington.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    It’s been going on quite a bit longer than that. They use our name to obscure their own. Does your conscience bother you? Tell me true.
  43. @rexl
    The recent protesters at the US Embassy are so obviously backed by the CIA and/or the State Department. I mean, even the slogan they are shouting, "Death to America" is totally Hollywood.

    Nah, that’s standard Iranian sloganeering since at the Revolution. Nothing special or surprising.

  44. @Herzog
    BS. Iraqi Arabs don't hate Kurds because of Israel. Sunnis don't hate Shias (and vice versa) because of Israel. Yemenis don't hate Saudis (and vice versa) because of Israel. Northern Sudanese Arabs didn't kill about million Southern Sudanese and Darfuri non-Arabs because of Israel. Etc. etc.

    How much time have you spent in those countries? If any, doing what?

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    What does spending time in countries have to do with his position. Standard lame argument from someone who can't defend his position.
    I spent a lot of time in ME including Iraq and Jordan and speak passable Arabic and Farsi and have friends across the board . Let me tell you the number one boogeyman for Arabs is not Israel but Iran. Arabs Animus with Iran and Kurds predates the existence of Judaism.
    The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion
    If anything Israel galvanized and United Arabs ...for a while and now they are falling back to the mean. Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do.
    , @Herzog
    Mostly, I have inspected brothels in "those countries," sparing no sacrifice to detect gaps in public hygiene and alerting competent and helpful authorities to them. On aggregate, that occupied me for close to a year.

    As a side effect, my Arabic was improved somewhat too, though, regrettably, not only with kosher vocabulary .
  45. @Anonymous

    The Middle East will always be in crisis and has always been.
     
    This is mistaken. The chief source of conflict in the region has been the Jews’ conquest of Palestine. That project is now nearing completion. Expect calmer times ahead, ceterus paribus. Steve’s snark is unwarranted.

    Nobody cares about the Palestinians.

    Didn’t you watch TV back when Druze militias ran a Warshaw Ghetto show on the side and Israel just stood by, smoking cigs, even providing night-time illumination?

  46. The last president of the USA who did’t bomb Iraq was Ronald Reagan.

    Every American under the age of 31 has lived their entire life under presidents who bombed Iraq.

    • Replies: @Old Prude
    Every American born after 1941 has lived under Presidents who have sent boys overseas to die meddling in other people's affairs. Will that shit EVER end?
  47. They are finally going to put Elizabeth Holmes on trial this year. I predict a doozie. Hopefully it will not be as bad as Dan White’s defense but it will likely be in that genre. Probability that it comes out during the trial she was sexually abused by her dad has got to be more than 1 in 4.

    Will she or won’t she get locked up as long as Patty Hearst was? I say no, but everybody I talk to says yes.

    • Replies: @anon
    They are finally going to put Elizabeth Holmes on trial this year.

    https://media.giphy.com/media/l4FGAUNfnbgnygLNC/giphy.gif
    , @Dr Van Nostrand
    Did no one at the confirmation hearings of Gen "mad dog" Mattis ask him why this mad dog became a cuddly puppy in the arms of Elizabeth Holmes?
  48. One thing to watch for our type of people will be the speed with which bay area and broader CA descends into chaos, as it has been mentioned elsewhere under new California law any theft thousand dollars is basically not prosecuted.

    https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/12/31/person-critically-injured-after-laptop-theft-outside-oakland-starbucks/

    This is actually a nicer part of Oakland, the victim’s name has not been announced yet, but the poor guys shoes laying on the street strongly indicated that he was a white hipster.

    • Replies: @houston 1992
    yes I agree. Could we get a working criminal law attorney to comment on what charges , if any, the thieves could face.
    Since stealing a (used) laptop is not a felony now I believe, < $1K, then the thieves cannot be charged with felony-murder.

    btw Hos is the value calculated? original sales price? what is the depreciation schedule for a laptop? Maybe it was worth over the new higher threshold amount?

    , @danand

    One thing to watch for our type of people will be the speed with which bay area and broader CA descends into chaos, as it has been mentioned elsewhere under new California law any theft thousand dollars is basically not prosecuted.

     

    Indocon, news from tonight indicates 2 perps have been apprehended. No info on them, nor the victim:

    https://youtu.be/33y8g-wXx6U
    , @danand

    This is actually a nicer part of Oakland, the victim’s name has not been announced yet, but the poor guys shoes laying on the street strongly indicated that he was a white hipster.
     
    Indocon, turned out the victim was a Chinese engineer, who worked for IBM. The killers were of the US’s most typical variety. One of the perps sisters told the interviewing reporter her brother is a good boy; one who doesn’t deserve to be held responsible for his deeds/works. As proof she showed a picture of her young child playing with his killer uncle. The newscaster then proceeded list off priors from the killers rap sheet.
  49. @Morton's toes
    They are finally going to put Elizabeth Holmes on trial this year. I predict a doozie. Hopefully it will not be as bad as Dan White's defense but it will likely be in that genre. Probability that it comes out during the trial she was sexually abused by her dad has got to be more than 1 in 4.

    Will she or won't she get locked up as long as Patty Hearst was? I say no, but everybody I talk to says yes.

    They are finally going to put Elizabeth Holmes on trial this year.

  50. @Herzog
    BS. Iraqi Arabs don't hate Kurds because of Israel. Sunnis don't hate Shias (and vice versa) because of Israel. Yemenis don't hate Saudis (and vice versa) because of Israel. Northern Sudanese Arabs didn't kill about million Southern Sudanese and Darfuri non-Arabs because of Israel. Etc. etc.

    But you do have to wonder how large Christian (and Yazidi and Jewish) communities were able to do fairly well under Muslim rule for over a millennium. What’s a good book to read about that?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    ...fairly well under Muslim rule for over a millennium.
     
    ...fairly well under [corrupt] Muslim rule for over a millennium.


    The reformers are always in the background, ready to purify once they can seize power. It's telling that Mohammedan rulers had to look outside their community for any progress.
    , @Herzog
    Well, so "fairly well" that even in Egypt, the country with the largest Christian community in the ME, Copts now amount to only about ten per cent of the population --- after Egypt being virtually one hundred per cent Christian when the Muhammadans first invaded the country almost 1,400 years ago.

    Admittedly, there wasn't immediate wholesale conversion or genocide of Christians. But given the religious demographic ratios, that would have been difficult to impossible to achieve for quite some time, and moreover econnomically self-defeating. Christians likely were the (decreasing) demographic majority in Egypt until the high Middle Ages.

    So, instead of wholesale conversion and / or genocide, you had relentless heckling, degradation, discrimination, with the occasional massacre intercalated (medieval Western persecution of Jews pales by comparison). And yes, probably some decades of relative tranquility as well. But the overall picture is clear: Relentless pressure, yielding an inexorable chipping away.

    Bat Ye'or has chronicled some of the fate and decline of Oriental Christians.
  51. @indocon
    One thing to watch for our type of people will be the speed with which bay area and broader CA descends into chaos, as it has been mentioned elsewhere under new California law any theft thousand dollars is basically not prosecuted.

    https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/12/31/person-critically-injured-after-laptop-theft-outside-oakland-starbucks/

    This is actually a nicer part of Oakland, the victim's name has not been announced yet, but the poor guys shoes laying on the street strongly indicated that he was a white hipster.

    yes I agree. Could we get a working criminal law attorney to comment on what charges , if any, the thieves could face.
    Since stealing a (used) laptop is not a felony now I believe, < $1K, then the thieves cannot be charged with felony-murder.

    btw Hos is the value calculated? original sales price? what is the depreciation schedule for a laptop? Maybe it was worth over the new higher threshold amount?

  52. While receiving enthusiastic servicing from the brave smart men who stand on a … not a wall, and claim that they will protect you from the evil Russians, Chinese men with a legally publicly incorporated business are selling classified documents. To anybody. On Wal-Mart dot com.

    Classified/Top Secret documents are being sold on mainstream websites like Wal-Mart.

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/ISAT-CONTRACT-A00VJH-AGSI-EU-DEPARTMENT-OF-DEFENSE/194114077
    http://archive.is/Uyv5X

    K Sparkle lists a public business phone number on their Wal-Mart seller profile. The number is registered to ZK Sparkle Enterprises LLC in Florida.

    https://start.cortera.com/company/research/l6o5qwn5o/zk-sparkle-enterprises-llc

    ZK Sparkle Enterprises LLC is owned by Yanqiong Guan and Cai Zhen.

    https://www.deltawareincsolutions.com/brand/view/index/id/5779/?limit=20&p=16

    There [are] even documents on Fort Knox selling for over $600,000.

    thread:
    http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/237967914

    It’s not a matter of justice or revenge: in the name of our survival, the CIA and FBI must be uprooted and replaced.

    • Agree: Old Prude
    • Replies: @Charon
    Ooooooh! Mr Sparkle!

    https://giphy.com/gifs/the-simpsons-season-8-in-marge-we-trust-POQu57nXZiHC0

  53. https://nypost.com/2020/01/01/jewish-man-attacked-by-two-women-after-trying-to-film-anti-semitic-tirade/

    Expect more such headlines in 2020 and beyond. Waiting for the coordinated counter attack, via lawfare, boundary-defining walls, or vigilante Jews. Not kidding either.

  54. @fnn
    But you do have to wonder how large Christian (and Yazidi and Jewish) communities were able to do fairly well under Muslim rule for over a millennium. What's a good book to read about that?

    …fairly well under Muslim rule for over a millennium.

    …fairly well under [corrupt] Muslim rule for over a millennium.

    The reformers are always in the background, ready to purify once they can seize power. It’s telling that Mohammedan rulers had to look outside their community for any progress.

  55. Steve, OT, but pertaining to the Latino Littering issue, I was reminded of the popularity of Post’s books in the past.

    From the NYT on Post and her book

    Such books had always been popular in America: the country’s exotic mix of immigrants and newly rich were eager to fit in with the establishment. Men had to be taught not to blow their noses into their hands or to spit tobacco onto ladies’ backs. Arthur M. Schlesinger, who wrote “Learning How to Behave: A Historical Study of American Etiquette Books” in 1946, said that etiquette books were part of “the leveling-up process of democracy,”

  56. That could be a sure sign your in the afterlife, there’s no crisis in the Levant.

  57. @bigdicknick
    On another forum I frequent someone recently posted an Observer article from 2004 about climate change predicting nuclear war and England under water by 2020. Here it is:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2004/feb/22/usnews.theobserver

    Imagine if we made public policy based on what the moonbats were saying in 2004 about climate change. That it was literally a life of death struggle and failure to act would mean we are all dead.

    We will probably be hearing in 2040 that we have to stop climate change immediately or England will be underwater by 2060.

    On another forum I frequent someone recently posted an Observer article from 2004 about climate change predicting nuclear war and England under water by 2020.

    Nuclear war would lead to nuclear winter, which would indeed lead to climate change. But not in the direction they’re preparing us for.

    I suppose England would be under ice, which would qualify as under water.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter#Producing_food_without_sunlight

    https://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/what-would-nuclear-winter-look.html

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    Nuclear war would lead to nuclear winter, which would indeed lead to climate change. But not in the direction they’re preparing us for.
     
    Nuke the Middle East. It will be worth it.
  58. Anonymous[374] • Disclaimer says:
    @Element59
    The "Middle East" has a tried-and-true recipe for perpetual trouble:

    Mix 1 part cousin marriage (consanguinity), 1 part Islam, with 2 parts Zionist Israel

    The “Middle East” has a tried-and-true recipe for perpetual trouble:

    Mix 1 part cousin marriage (consanguinity), 1 part Islam, with 2 parts Zionist Israel

    One part Zionist Israel is the only necessary ingredient. Would any non-Muslim people take it lying down if Zionists invaded their country and sought to impose Jewish supremacy on them or tried to ethnically cleanse them.

    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    I dunno, the Americans have been taking all that stuff lying down for decades.
    , @anonymous
    On the other hand Muslim people in the Middle East had no problem with fomenting sectarian and tribal war for the 1500 years before Zionism was a thing.
  59. @Paul
    "Expect calmer times ahead"


    LOL. Sometime after the second coming.

    “Expect calmer times ahead”

    LOL. Sometime after the second coming.

    It was relatively calm before the Jews invaded. It will become calmer after the Jews have consolidated their rule and further vanquished those who would oppose them.

    • Replies: @anon

    It was relatively calm before the Jews invaded.


    Nah. The US Navy ran anti-slaver patrols in the Med during the 19th century. Even during the 1861 war between the states there were Navy frigates on patrol off the coast of Tunis, Algeria, Libya, etc. One of the first actions of the US Navy in the 18th century was to free sailors captured by the Barbary pirates. That's long before 1948. Read some history, dude.
  60. @Reg Cæsar

    On another forum I frequent someone recently posted an Observer article from 2004 about climate change predicting nuclear war and England under water by 2020.
     
    Nuclear war would lead to nuclear winter, which would indeed lead to climate change. But not in the direction they're preparing us for.

    I suppose England would be under ice, which would qualify as under water.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter#Producing_food_without_sunlight


    https://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/what-would-nuclear-winter-look.html

    Nuclear war would lead to nuclear winter, which would indeed lead to climate change. But not in the direction they’re preparing us for.

    Nuke the Middle East. It will be worth it.

  61. @G. Poulin
    Was that the guy who did "Year of the Cat"?

    Yes.

  62. anon[100] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    “Expect calmer times ahead”

    LOL. Sometime after the second coming.
     
    It was relatively calm before the Jews invaded. It will become calmer after the Jews have consolidated their rule and further vanquished those who would oppose them.


    It was relatively calm before the Jews invaded.

    Nah. The US Navy ran anti-slaver patrols in the Med during the 19th century. Even during the 1861 war between the states there were Navy frigates on patrol off the coast of Tunis, Algeria, Libya, etc. One of the first actions of the US Navy in the 18th century was to free sailors captured by the Barbary pirates. That’s long before 1948. Read some history, dude.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Nah. The US Navy ran anti-slaver patrols in the Med during the 19th century. Even during the 1861 war between the states there were Navy frigates on patrol off the coast of Tunis, Algeria, Libya, etc. One of the first actions of the US Navy in the 18th century was to free sailors captured by the Barbary pirates. That’s long before 1948. Read some history, dude
     
    The Jewish invasion of Palestine began long before 1948, dude.

    But whatever the case, the Barbary pirate activity is external affairs (to the extent it even belongs in the same category of “conflict”).
  63. @Anonymous

    The “Middle East” has a tried-and-true recipe for perpetual trouble:

    Mix 1 part cousin marriage (consanguinity), 1 part Islam, with 2 parts Zionist Israel
     
    One part Zionist Israel is the only necessary ingredient. Would any non-Muslim people take it lying down if Zionists invaded their country and sought to impose Jewish supremacy on them or tried to ethnically cleanse them.

    I dunno, the Americans have been taking all that stuff lying down for decades.

    • Agree: TomSchmidt, donut
  64. @John Gruskos
    The last president of the USA who did't bomb Iraq was Ronald Reagan.

    Every American under the age of 31 has lived their entire life under presidents who bombed Iraq.

    Every American born after 1941 has lived under Presidents who have sent boys overseas to die meddling in other people’s affairs. Will that shit EVER end?

  65. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    It was relatively calm before the Jews invaded.


    Nah. The US Navy ran anti-slaver patrols in the Med during the 19th century. Even during the 1861 war between the states there were Navy frigates on patrol off the coast of Tunis, Algeria, Libya, etc. One of the first actions of the US Navy in the 18th century was to free sailors captured by the Barbary pirates. That's long before 1948. Read some history, dude.

    Nah. The US Navy ran anti-slaver patrols in the Med during the 19th century. Even during the 1861 war between the states there were Navy frigates on patrol off the coast of Tunis, Algeria, Libya, etc. One of the first actions of the US Navy in the 18th century was to free sailors captured by the Barbary pirates. That’s long before 1948. Read some history, dude

    The Jewish invasion of Palestine began long before 1948, dude.

    But whatever the case, the Barbary pirate activity is external affairs (to the extent it even belongs in the same category of “conflict”).

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn't make anything of it.
  66. @Reg Cæsar

    ...and delays in finishing Berlin’s new airport.
     
    It will still beat the Omsk Metro and that bullet train in the California Republic.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_FiJOxYHuJk

    That remains to be seen. They now say it’ll be finished by the end of 2020, but I’ll believe it when I see it. I doubt they’ll fill the airport with sand, though.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I doubt they’ll fill the airport with sand, though.
     
    Sand is at a high premium now. The developing world needs it to develop. China used more concrete in three years than the U.S. did in the whole 20th century. Saudi Arabia imports it (their own is the wrong kind), and whole beaches are being stolen.

    There are few Jews left in Berlin, but I suppose they could fill the holes with Turks and "Syrians".


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_theft

  67. @indocon
    One thing to watch for our type of people will be the speed with which bay area and broader CA descends into chaos, as it has been mentioned elsewhere under new California law any theft thousand dollars is basically not prosecuted.

    https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/12/31/person-critically-injured-after-laptop-theft-outside-oakland-starbucks/

    This is actually a nicer part of Oakland, the victim's name has not been announced yet, but the poor guys shoes laying on the street strongly indicated that he was a white hipster.

    One thing to watch for our type of people will be the speed with which bay area and broader CA descends into chaos, as it has been mentioned elsewhere under new California law any theft thousand dollars is basically not prosecuted.

    Indocon, news from tonight indicates 2 perps have been apprehended. No info on them, nor the victim:

  68. @Harry Baldwin
    And did the report on climate change predict mass extinction in 20 years should carbon emissions not end?

    Don’t know — didn’t ask.

  69. @Achmed E. Newman
    It's great to see another Al Stewart fan here, Jack! That is the more obscure stuff. I did not know these lyrics either, though I own Past, Present, and Future. My chronic lyricosis has been flaring up lately. Favorites from that album: 1) Nostradamus (of course), 2) Roads to Moscow, and 3) Warren Gamaliel Harding.

    Yeah, pretty admirable guy. First saw him in D. C. in the 1970s; then a few times the last decade. He made money in a tough line of work. He showed courage by dropping confessional folk for historical folk, then again when he backed off that Top-40 friendly “Time Passages” stuff. Fine lyricist. A decent gent, and, maybe less recognized, he got damned lucky when a man needs a spot of luck.

    There are plenty of worse epitaphs out there, that’s for sure.

  70. @Paul
    "Expect calmer times ahead"


    LOL. Sometime after the second coming.

    Well that would certainly settle their hash.

  71. @anonymous
    How much time have you spent in those countries? If any, doing what?

    What does spending time in countries have to do with his position. Standard lame argument from someone who can’t defend his position.
    I spent a lot of time in ME including Iraq and Jordan and speak passable Arabic and Farsi and have friends across the board . Let me tell you the number one boogeyman for Arabs is not Israel but Iran. Arabs Animus with Iran and Kurds predates the existence of Judaism.
    The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion
    If anything Israel galvanized and United Arabs …for a while and now they are falling back to the mean. Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do.

    • Replies: @Hibernian

    Arabs Animus with Iran and Kurds predates the existence of Judaism.
     
    Prior to the time of Abraham? Please elaborate.
    , @anonymous
    I was curious if he had any first hand information —> my question.

    Now one for you: is any of what’s wrong with the ME today the responsibility (in both senses, causal and remedial) of Uncle Sam? Because my sense is that you will say, not “our” fault, yet “our” job to bomb these savages into democracy. But you tell me.
    , @Oscar Peterson

    "The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion"
     
    Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting--usually other Arabs.

    It's true Arab-Persian animosity goes back a good way, but so does practically every other permutation of inter-racial/ethnic/tribal rivalry.

    The Persians, like the Byzantines, had a rich and intricate culture and tended to have little regard for most of the Arabs they came into contact with.

    But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created--Islam--and make it more Persian than Arab.

    When Iran was converted to Twelver Shiism in the early 16th century and fought a long series of wars with Sunni Ottoman Turkey for control of Mesopotamia, Arab distrust kindled into animosity.

    "Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do."
     
    Absolutely untrue.

    For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    When Iran-backed Hezbollah was perceived to have dealt Israel a blow in the 2006 Lebanon War, it resulted in much admiration for Hezbollah. Almost immediately afterwards however, AQI bombed the al Askari shrine in Samarra, Iraq, setting off much blood letting between Shia and Sunnis and scotching any possible rapprochement. Just goes to show how useful Sunni anti-Shia violence has been to Israeli strategy in the region.

    The ruling and clerical elites of the Sunni Arab world are another matter. They are the ones who really inherit the historical animosity to Iran, which is aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to. The general feeling is that they have no hope of saving the Palestinians but, on the other hand, Israel is not viewed by them as an expansionist threat beyond the Jordan Valley, Gaza, the Golan and Lebanon. The traditional Arab leadership fear that Persians might try to "steal" Islam from its Arab creators is now supplemented by the fear that a dynamic and technologically proficient Iranian state might seek and gain "hegemony" in the region. It's quite difficult to see how Iran could really do this even if it tried, but such is the mindset of many Sunni Arab leaders, both Islamist and secular. Muhammed Morsi was prepared to explore better relations with Iran after becoming Egypt's first elected president. But then he was overthrown. There may well be some connection there.
  72. @Anonymous

    Nah. The US Navy ran anti-slaver patrols in the Med during the 19th century. Even during the 1861 war between the states there were Navy frigates on patrol off the coast of Tunis, Algeria, Libya, etc. One of the first actions of the US Navy in the 18th century was to free sailors captured by the Barbary pirates. That’s long before 1948. Read some history, dude
     
    The Jewish invasion of Palestine began long before 1948, dude.

    But whatever the case, the Barbary pirate activity is external affairs (to the extent it even belongs in the same category of “conflict”).

    There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn’t make anything of it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn’t make anything of it.
     
    Lmao. Hasbara alert!
    , @but an humble craftsman
    Thank you for the much needed infusion of humour in this thread.

    Hopefully the resident antisemites get your irony otherwise some serious trolling might ensue.
    , @Oscar Peterson

    "There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn’t make anything of it."
     
    You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

    At the end of WW II, various Jewish owners, the Jewish national Fund being the largest, owned about 6% of all the land in the Palestine mandate, and there was little change between 1945 and 1948. What Jews had title to lay almost entirely in a coastal strip and in substantial chunks of the Galilee. Essentially it was a beachhead allowing Jews to position themselves for the military conquests to come.

    In any case, does it need to be pointed out to you that land purchase, however extensive, is nowhere in the world recognized as conferring political sovereignty? So your reasoning is fallacious--if not mendacious--from start to finish.

    The influx of Zionist Jews, protected by British imperial bayonets and intent on creating a state for themselves at the expense of the native Arab population was a crypto-invasion that turned into a conventional invasion in the war and state-formation of 1948. Arabs made up at least 93% of the population of the area in 1918 and were absolutely opposed to the imposition of a Jewish state ("national home") so it was always going to require aggressively invasive scheme to impose Israel on them.

  73. @Morton's toes
    They are finally going to put Elizabeth Holmes on trial this year. I predict a doozie. Hopefully it will not be as bad as Dan White's defense but it will likely be in that genre. Probability that it comes out during the trial she was sexually abused by her dad has got to be more than 1 in 4.

    Will she or won't she get locked up as long as Patty Hearst was? I say no, but everybody I talk to says yes.

    Did no one at the confirmation hearings of Gen “mad dog” Mattis ask him why this mad dog became a cuddly puppy in the arms of Elizabeth Holmes?

  74. @J.Ross
    While receiving enthusiastic servicing from the brave smart men who stand on a ... not a wall, and claim that they will protect you from the evil Russians, Chinese men with a legally publicly incorporated business are selling classified documents. To anybody. On Wal-Mart dot com.

    Classified/Top Secret documents are being sold on mainstream websites like Wal-Mart.
     
    https://www.walmart.com/ip/ISAT-CONTRACT-A00VJH-AGSI-EU-DEPARTMENT-OF-DEFENSE/194114077
    http://archive.is/Uyv5X

    K Sparkle lists a public business phone number on their Wal-Mart seller profile. The number is registered to ZK Sparkle Enterprises LLC in Florida.
     
    https://start.cortera.com/company/research/l6o5qwn5o/zk-sparkle-enterprises-llc

    ZK Sparkle Enterprises LLC is owned by Yanqiong Guan and Cai Zhen.
     
    https://www.deltawareincsolutions.com/brand/view/index/id/5779/?limit=20&p=16

    There [are] even documents on Fort Knox selling for over $600,000.
     
    thread:
    http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/237967914

    It's not a matter of justice or revenge: in the name of our survival, the CIA and FBI must be uprooted and replaced.
    • Agree: Ozymandias
  75. @RichardTaylor
    "Expect a tumultuous 2020 in the Middle East"

    That kind of insight is why they're an elite paper. I keep hearing the 2020s will have lots of upheaval. Financial ruin, war, etc. But I don't see a big crash coming. Probably just stagnation or slow growth.

    However, by 2028, the WaPo may look back to the days of Trump with nostalgia. The political polarization continues apace.

    I remember being advised that the Clinton years will be looked on the same way.

    Brutus

  76. @Harry Baldwin
    And did the report on climate change predict mass extinction in 20 years should carbon emissions not end?

    Come on, every year is the hottest year on record. We get two or three giant hurricanes a year when they used to come every few years.

    Just because the left is wrong on lots of stuff, doesn’t mean they’re wrong on everything. As Derb says, some things are true even though the Party says they are.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Come on, every year is the hottest year on record.

    According to the global warming experts, 2012 was the hottest year on record. And when we're talking about "hottest" we're referring to increments of hundredths of a degree.

    The global average temperature shows a warming of 0.85°C, in the period 1880, ten years after the end of the Little Ice Age, to 2012, the hottest year on record.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we can manage this. There are a lot of other problems that'll get us first.

    https://www.climatecentral.org/gallery/graphics/10-hottest-us-years-on-record
    https://www.eh-resources.org/timeline-middle-ages/
    , @nebulafox
    As a non-scientist, I accept the scientific consensus on global warming. This makes the Right mad at me. I also accept that IQ has a heavily genetic basis, also as per scientific research. This makes the Left mad at me.

    But when I suggest nuclear power as a feasible interim way to reverse the environmental situation without wholly reshaping American society, the Left gets mad. And when I suggest that chalking up the struggles of the less cognitively gifted to their laziness and lack of character is not just counterproductive and wrong, but downright cruel, the Right gets mad.

    Maybe if you are pissing off ideologues of every stripe, you are doing something right.

    , @JMcG
    Insty just linked to a story about Glacier National Park removing all its signs warning that the namesake glaciers would be gone by 2020. If all the remedies didn’t involve accumulating more power in the hands of our betters, I’d be more willing to listen.
    The newspapers in Ireland recently featured a story about government considering a ban on the burning of solid fuel for warmth, something those in the countryside have done for time out of mind, juxtaposed with the same government’s plans to expand Dublin airport with an eye toward increasing its traffic from 30 to 40 million passengers annually by 2023.
    Now, who are the rubes here?
    , @Brutusale
    Is climate change real? I'd be a fool to ignore the historical record that the climate changes.

    Anthropomorphic climate change? I need the bad and contrived "science" from the likes of Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann and his ilk to be a tad more convincing.
  77. @Anonymous

    The “Middle East” has a tried-and-true recipe for perpetual trouble:

    Mix 1 part cousin marriage (consanguinity), 1 part Islam, with 2 parts Zionist Israel
     
    One part Zionist Israel is the only necessary ingredient. Would any non-Muslim people take it lying down if Zionists invaded their country and sought to impose Jewish supremacy on them or tried to ethnically cleanse them.

    On the other hand Muslim people in the Middle East had no problem with fomenting sectarian and tribal war for the 1500 years before Zionism was a thing.

  78. @anonymous
    How much time have you spent in those countries? If any, doing what?

    Mostly, I have inspected brothels in “those countries,” sparing no sacrifice to detect gaps in public hygiene and alerting competent and helpful authorities to them. On aggregate, that occupied me for close to a year.

    As a side effect, my Arabic was improved somewhat too, though, regrettably, not only with kosher vocabulary .

  79. We get two or three giant hurricanes a year when they used to come every few years.

    I’m agnostic about AGW and it’s effects in general but this is basically B.S. See https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/

    ” In other words,
    there is little evidence from current dynamical models that 21st century climate warming will lead to large (~300%) increases in tropical storm numbers, hurricane numbers, or PDI in the Atlantic. As noted above, there is some indication from high resolution models of substantial increases in the numbers of the most intense hurricanes even if the overall number of tropical storms or hurricanes decreases.

    Finally, one can ask when a large increase in Category 4-5 hurricanes, as projected by our earlier Bender et al. (2010) study, would be expected to be detectable in the Atlantic hurricane records, if it occurred in the real world. Owing to the large interannual to decadal variability of SST and hurricane activity in the basin, Bender et al (2010) estimate that detection of an anthropogenic influence on intense hurricanes would not be expected for a number of decades, even assuming a large underlying increasing trend (+10% per decade) occurs. While there is a large rising trend since the mid 1940’s in observed category 4-5 numbers in the Atlantic, our view is that these data are not reliable for trend calculations, until they have been further assessed for data homogeneity problems, such as those due to changing observing practices..”

  80. @fnn
    But you do have to wonder how large Christian (and Yazidi and Jewish) communities were able to do fairly well under Muslim rule for over a millennium. What's a good book to read about that?

    Well, so “fairly well” that even in Egypt, the country with the largest Christian community in the ME, Copts now amount to only about ten per cent of the population — after Egypt being virtually one hundred per cent Christian when the Muhammadans first invaded the country almost 1,400 years ago.

    Admittedly, there wasn’t immediate wholesale conversion or genocide of Christians. But given the religious demographic ratios, that would have been difficult to impossible to achieve for quite some time, and moreover econnomically self-defeating. Christians likely were the (decreasing) demographic majority in Egypt until the high Middle Ages.

    So, instead of wholesale conversion and / or genocide, you had relentless heckling, degradation, discrimination, with the occasional massacre intercalated (medieval Western persecution of Jews pales by comparison). And yes, probably some decades of relative tranquility as well. But the overall picture is clear: Relentless pressure, yielding an inexorable chipping away.

    Bat Ye’or has chronicled some of the fate and decline of Oriental Christians.

  81. @SFG
    Come on, every year is the hottest year on record. We get two or three giant hurricanes a year when they used to come every few years.

    Just because the left is wrong on lots of stuff, doesn't mean they're wrong on everything. As Derb says, some things are true even though the Party says they are.

    Come on, every year is the hottest year on record.

    According to the global warming experts, 2012 was the hottest year on record. And when we’re talking about “hottest” we’re referring to increments of hundredths of a degree.

    The global average temperature shows a warming of 0.85°C, in the period 1880, ten years after the end of the Little Ice Age, to 2012, the hottest year on record.

    Maybe I’m wrong, but I think we can manage this. There are a lot of other problems that’ll get us first.

    https://www.climatecentral.org/gallery/graphics/10-hottest-us-years-on-record
    https://www.eh-resources.org/timeline-middle-ages/

  82. @Dr Van Nostrand
    There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn't make anything of it.

    There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn’t make anything of it.

    Lmao. Hasbara alert!

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    I was not expecting an intelligent rebuttal.
  83. @Dr Van Nostrand
    What does spending time in countries have to do with his position. Standard lame argument from someone who can't defend his position.
    I spent a lot of time in ME including Iraq and Jordan and speak passable Arabic and Farsi and have friends across the board . Let me tell you the number one boogeyman for Arabs is not Israel but Iran. Arabs Animus with Iran and Kurds predates the existence of Judaism.
    The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion
    If anything Israel galvanized and United Arabs ...for a while and now they are falling back to the mean. Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do.

    Arabs Animus with Iran and Kurds predates the existence of Judaism.

    Prior to the time of Abraham? Please elaborate.

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    We do not know whether or not a specific personality such as Abraham existed or not though Akkadian records from 2200BC to 1800 BC mention simiilarr sounding names in Southern Iraq . When I speak of Judaism, I mean the first attestations of Israelites or a similar ethnic group i.e probably the Merneptah steel around 1000 BC.
    Even before that proto Iranian and Arabian tribes were battling it out in the Persian gulf area and the Elamite plateau. At this time the Fars were chafing under Assyrian and Babylonian yoke from which they eventually free themselves but other Iranian tribes led a nomadic existence and this put them in conflict with settled and nomadic Semitic groups. UAE tribes such as the Al Qasimi praise heroes from around 1000BC or before for battling Iranian foes.
  84. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dr Van Nostrand
    What does spending time in countries have to do with his position. Standard lame argument from someone who can't defend his position.
    I spent a lot of time in ME including Iraq and Jordan and speak passable Arabic and Farsi and have friends across the board . Let me tell you the number one boogeyman for Arabs is not Israel but Iran. Arabs Animus with Iran and Kurds predates the existence of Judaism.
    The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion
    If anything Israel galvanized and United Arabs ...for a while and now they are falling back to the mean. Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do.

    I was curious if he had any first hand information —> my question.

    Now one for you: is any of what’s wrong with the ME today the responsibility (in both senses, causal and remedial) of Uncle Sam? Because my sense is that you will say, not “our” fault, yet “our” job to bomb these savages into democracy. But you tell me.

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand

    Now one for you: is any of what’s wrong with the ME today the responsibility (in both senses, causal and remedial) of Uncle Sam? Because my sense is that you will say, not “our” fault, yet “our” job to bomb these savages into democracy. But you tell me.
     
    Depends on how far back you want to go. And even that it is quite complicated as the Middle East is a big place with various sects and tribes(though mostly Muslim) still at odds with each other. Most of the maladies affecting the Middle East are due to the Sykes Picot treaty and creating nation states out of thin air with no regard to ethnic composition or geographic realities. We are now witnessing the collapse of these WWI era entities almost a 100 years later. The only ones which survive are Egypt ,GCC and North African countries which more or less correspond to some degree of ethno linguistic commonality. Obviously the Arabic language and Islam is not a sufficient glue absent the Caliph to cement such a large region.
    Whether or not U.S would have destroyed Iraq, it would have destroyed itself. Though U.S should have avoided that due to bad karma. All in all, U.S may withdraw from the Middle East due to fracking (have you hugged a fracker today as Instapundit put it) and need not patrol the straits of Hormuz.
    Leave them alone and let them go at it and let Allah/Yahweh figure it out.
  85. @LemmusLemmus
    That remains to be seen. They now say it'll be finished by the end of 2020, but I'll believe it when I see it. I doubt they'll fill the airport with sand, though.

    I doubt they’ll fill the airport with sand, though.

    Sand is at a high premium now. The developing world needs it to develop. China used more concrete in three years than the U.S. did in the whole 20th century. Saudi Arabia imports it (their own is the wrong kind), and whole beaches are being stolen.

    There are few Jews left in Berlin, but I suppose they could fill the holes with Turks and “Syrians”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_theft

    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson

    "There are few Jews left in Berlin,"
     
    Actually, the Jewish population of Berlin has risen quite sharply over the last couple decades--from a low base number, it's true.
    , @Anonymous
    Is Saudi sand good for anything?
  86. @Dr Van Nostrand
    There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn't make anything of it.

    Thank you for the much needed infusion of humour in this thread.

    Hopefully the resident antisemites get your irony otherwise some serious trolling might ensue.

  87. @anonymous
    In 1953, Uncle Sam didn’t like the outcome of an Iranian election, and installed the Shah, who ruled until 1979. If the government of Iran in that year had replaced President Eisenhower with a king, would you have accepted it?

    Americans should be ashamed of what has been done in their name to the Middle East for your entire life. Instead, most of us — if we pay any attention at all — smugly look down on those resisting Washington.

    It’s been going on quite a bit longer than that. They use our name to obscure their own. Does your conscience bother you? Tell me true.

  88. I used to work at IAD in the early ‘80’s. On morning radio was the start of the whole shock jock phenomenon. One of them had a canned traffic announcement that took all of the typical backups on the beltway and just repeated the same thing every day. It was almost always correct.

  89. @Hibernian

    Arabs Animus with Iran and Kurds predates the existence of Judaism.
     
    Prior to the time of Abraham? Please elaborate.

    We do not know whether or not a specific personality such as Abraham existed or not though Akkadian records from 2200BC to 1800 BC mention simiilarr sounding names in Southern Iraq . When I speak of Judaism, I mean the first attestations of Israelites or a similar ethnic group i.e probably the Merneptah steel around 1000 BC.
    Even before that proto Iranian and Arabian tribes were battling it out in the Persian gulf area and the Elamite plateau. At this time the Fars were chafing under Assyrian and Babylonian yoke from which they eventually free themselves but other Iranian tribes led a nomadic existence and this put them in conflict with settled and nomadic Semitic groups. UAE tribes such as the Al Qasimi praise heroes from around 1000BC or before for battling Iranian foes.

  90. @Dr Van Nostrand
    There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn't make anything of it.

    “There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn’t make anything of it.”

    You have no idea what you’re talking about, do you?

    At the end of WW II, various Jewish owners, the Jewish national Fund being the largest, owned about 6% of all the land in the Palestine mandate, and there was little change between 1945 and 1948. What Jews had title to lay almost entirely in a coastal strip and in substantial chunks of the Galilee. Essentially it was a beachhead allowing Jews to position themselves for the military conquests to come.

    In any case, does it need to be pointed out to you that land purchase, however extensive, is nowhere in the world recognized as conferring political sovereignty? So your reasoning is fallacious–if not mendacious–from start to finish.

    The influx of Zionist Jews, protected by British imperial bayonets and intent on creating a state for themselves at the expense of the native Arab population was a crypto-invasion that turned into a conventional invasion in the war and state-formation of 1948. Arabs made up at least 93% of the population of the area in 1918 and were absolutely opposed to the imposition of a Jewish state (“national home”) so it was always going to require aggressively invasive scheme to impose Israel on them.

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    Selective historical incidents may fly with your crew but not here. You conveniently ignore what transpired before WWII i.e the Palestinian rioting and the British who acquired Ottoman holdings promptly tore up the Balfour declaration to curry favor with the Arabs. By then the Zionists were ambitious enough to include Western Jordan in their maps but usurpers from the Hejaz i.e the Hashemites were given control of Jordan and Iraq.
    It was the Israeli militias who drove out the British and battled the Arabs. Hardly an arms from U.K or U.S were forthcoming so their support for nationhood at the U.N wasnt really worth squat.
    , @Anonymous
    This may be the most morally bankrupt post Steve has ever made.

    Israel and the United States bomb, invade, and occupy the Middle East for a century and counting and Steve makes a snarky top post insinuation that Arabs are conflict prone.
  91. @Reg Cæsar

    I doubt they’ll fill the airport with sand, though.
     
    Sand is at a high premium now. The developing world needs it to develop. China used more concrete in three years than the U.S. did in the whole 20th century. Saudi Arabia imports it (their own is the wrong kind), and whole beaches are being stolen.

    There are few Jews left in Berlin, but I suppose they could fill the holes with Turks and "Syrians".


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_theft

    “There are few Jews left in Berlin,”

    Actually, the Jewish population of Berlin has risen quite sharply over the last couple decades–from a low base number, it’s true.

  92. @anonymous
    I was curious if he had any first hand information —> my question.

    Now one for you: is any of what’s wrong with the ME today the responsibility (in both senses, causal and remedial) of Uncle Sam? Because my sense is that you will say, not “our” fault, yet “our” job to bomb these savages into democracy. But you tell me.

    Now one for you: is any of what’s wrong with the ME today the responsibility (in both senses, causal and remedial) of Uncle Sam? Because my sense is that you will say, not “our” fault, yet “our” job to bomb these savages into democracy. But you tell me.

    Depends on how far back you want to go. And even that it is quite complicated as the Middle East is a big place with various sects and tribes(though mostly Muslim) still at odds with each other. Most of the maladies affecting the Middle East are due to the Sykes Picot treaty and creating nation states out of thin air with no regard to ethnic composition or geographic realities. We are now witnessing the collapse of these WWI era entities almost a 100 years later. The only ones which survive are Egypt ,GCC and North African countries which more or less correspond to some degree of ethno linguistic commonality. Obviously the Arabic language and Islam is not a sufficient glue absent the Caliph to cement such a large region.
    Whether or not U.S would have destroyed Iraq, it would have destroyed itself. Though U.S should have avoided that due to bad karma. All in all, U.S may withdraw from the Middle East due to fracking (have you hugged a fracker today as Instapundit put it) and need not patrol the straits of Hormuz.
    Leave them alone and let them go at it and let Allah/Yahweh figure it out.

    • Replies: @Ozymandias
    "Most of the maladies affecting the Middle East are due to the Sykes Picot treaty and creating nation states out of thin air with no regard to ethnic composition or geographic realities."

    Seems more like it was specifically designed to split some of those compositions up. Long ago Wokeness. Diversity will be their strength! Worked out well...
  93. @Anonymous

    There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn’t make anything of it.
     
    Lmao. Hasbara alert!

    I was not expecting an intelligent rebuttal.

  94. @Reg Cæsar

    I doubt they’ll fill the airport with sand, though.
     
    Sand is at a high premium now. The developing world needs it to develop. China used more concrete in three years than the U.S. did in the whole 20th century. Saudi Arabia imports it (their own is the wrong kind), and whole beaches are being stolen.

    There are few Jews left in Berlin, but I suppose they could fill the holes with Turks and "Syrians".


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_theft

    Is Saudi sand good for anything?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Is Saudi sand good for anything?
     
    Blinding pursuers?
    , @Ozymandias
    "Is Saudi sand good for anything?"

    Pounding. A preoccupation we should strongly encourage them to take up.
  95. @Dr Van Nostrand
    What does spending time in countries have to do with his position. Standard lame argument from someone who can't defend his position.
    I spent a lot of time in ME including Iraq and Jordan and speak passable Arabic and Farsi and have friends across the board . Let me tell you the number one boogeyman for Arabs is not Israel but Iran. Arabs Animus with Iran and Kurds predates the existence of Judaism.
    The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion
    If anything Israel galvanized and United Arabs ...for a while and now they are falling back to the mean. Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do.

    “The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion”

    Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting–usually other Arabs.

    It’s true Arab-Persian animosity goes back a good way, but so does practically every other permutation of inter-racial/ethnic/tribal rivalry.

    The Persians, like the Byzantines, had a rich and intricate culture and tended to have little regard for most of the Arabs they came into contact with.

    But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created–Islam–and make it more Persian than Arab.

    When Iran was converted to Twelver Shiism in the early 16th century and fought a long series of wars with Sunni Ottoman Turkey for control of Mesopotamia, Arab distrust kindled into animosity.

    “Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do.”

    Absolutely untrue.

    For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    When Iran-backed Hezbollah was perceived to have dealt Israel a blow in the 2006 Lebanon War, it resulted in much admiration for Hezbollah. Almost immediately afterwards however, AQI bombed the al Askari shrine in Samarra, Iraq, setting off much blood letting between Shia and Sunnis and scotching any possible rapprochement. Just goes to show how useful Sunni anti-Shia violence has been to Israeli strategy in the region.

    The ruling and clerical elites of the Sunni Arab world are another matter. They are the ones who really inherit the historical animosity to Iran, which is aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to. The general feeling is that they have no hope of saving the Palestinians but, on the other hand, Israel is not viewed by them as an expansionist threat beyond the Jordan Valley, Gaza, the Golan and Lebanon. The traditional Arab leadership fear that Persians might try to “steal” Islam from its Arab creators is now supplemented by the fear that a dynamic and technologically proficient Iranian state might seek and gain “hegemony” in the region. It’s quite difficult to see how Iran could really do this even if it tried, but such is the mindset of many Sunni Arab leaders, both Islamist and secular. Muhammed Morsi was prepared to explore better relations with Iran after becoming Egypt’s first elected president. But then he was overthrown. There may well be some connection there.

    • Replies: @anonymous

    aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to
     
    I don't get this sense. Iran has been a relatively poor country. The level of prosperity it did have was largely fueled by oil exports. On the Nature Index is is between Mexico and Chile: https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/score
    , @nebulafox
    >Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting–usually other Arabs.

    The Arabs really were the 7th Century, Eastern empire equivalent to the Germanic confederations that took down the West. Like many of the men from the north, they'd already been largely introduced to monotheism and more advanced political systems through centuries of contact with Rome. Many of the Rashidun commanders probably once fought for the Byzantines until Heraclius tried to stiff them. (Though in fairness to Heraclius, he really didn't have any money by the time he finally managed to eject the Sassanids.)

    Of course, a few centuries later when all the conquered Romans and Mesopotamians had become Islamized and Arabized, the Turkish slave soldiers would become their own Germanic-warlord style puppeteers behind the throne...

    >But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created–Islam–and make it more Persian than Arab.

    And in many ways, it did: a lot of the stuff about cleanliness and purity you see in Islam has Zoroastrian origins, as do the intellectual strains in the faith. A lot of the stuff about the ritual segregation of women also has Persian origin: Arab women in the 7th Century were notorious for being fierce and violent, alongside their menfolk. Islam as a faith took time to coalesce after the conquests, like any other religion, despite what the dogma says. It's no different from the strain of Hellenistic Platonic philosophy found in Christianity.

    It's best to look at Christianity and Islam as half-brothers who share the same Judaic mother, but were raised by different fathers, one Greco-Roman, the other Persian. The caliphs of Baghdad were repeating-in pious Islamic idiom, of course-many of the pretensions of the long gone Shahanshahs, much like the Catholic Church and Germanic warlords imitated the structure and form of the fallen Roman civilization. Hell, to this day, the Pope is Pontifex Maximus!

    >For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    There's an ugly strain of truth to the reality that Israel's Middle Eastern foreign policy successes only last insofar as non-populist, un-democratic regimes-or alternatively, chaos-persists in the region. I wouldn't go so far as to say that's the whole story behind the vast improvement in Israel's foreign policy situation over the last 50 years: their relations with non-Western powers have improved dramatically, and in the cases of Russia, India, and to a more limited extent, China have a basis in genuine ideological sympathy. But that's definitely a big part of it. The masses in Egypt and Saudi Arabia have no say over what their government does, and that's crucial in a way the AIPAC crowd will never admit to.

    As far as the Iranians go, persistently overblowing Tehran's capabilities-regardless of what they actually want-is a well-honed exercise in the Beltway that will not cease for the forseeable future.

    , @Dr Van Nostrand

    Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting–usually other Arabs.

    It’s true Arab-Persian animosity goes back a good way, but so does practically every other permutation of inter-racial/ethnic/tribal rivalry.
     
    This argument is the equivalent of hand waving . I cannot take your position seriously if you give so little thought into such matters. Islam was essentially a souped version of Judaism meant for Arabs. If there was no constant Persian (and to a lesser extant) Byzantine expansion there would be no Islam. Anyhow there is no historical evidence of Mohammad . There is a strong likelihood that he was a Christian warlord who got mythologized into various contacts with Byzantines and Sassanid and that the Abbasids cooked him up. Either way Persian Arab led to Islam which delivered Sassanids a death blow.


    But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created–Islam–and make it more Persian than Arab.
     
    Arabs were rather in awe of Persian culture as they were richer, more cosmopolitan and materially advanced and while initially there was disdain for Persian peoples as a conquered race. In time Arabs in Persia and elswhere adopted Persian culture, dress, manners and language and got Persianized. Remember Islam was spread across the Eastern sphere in a Persianate form. In the West ARabic predominated because Iraq,Jordan, Syria and Palestine were Semitic speaking and Arabic was easy fit. North Africa apart from a few cities was mostly sparsely populated by Amazigh tribes. Egypt was the only linguistic crossover on a considerable scale. It is similar Romans viewed Greece though Arabs in Arab territories proper never got Persianized when compared to educated Romans who started speaking Greek. They never percieved it as a cultural threat but a vehicle to promote Islam. There was a genuine syncretic culture which seemed to somewhat rehabilitate Arab /Persian hatreds but the Turks put a dent in that before it could be completed and they reverted to competing factions.

    "When Iran was converted to Twelver Shiism in the early 16th century and fought a long series of wars with Sunni Ottoman Turkey for control of Mesopotamia, Arab distrust kindled into animosity."
    Hahaha. No. This Sunni Shia as a proxy for Arab /Persian is even more recent than the 16th century. The very first Shias were Arab and remained so for a while. True Sunni political and demographic ascedancy started really with the Wahhabis who can be viewed as Lutherans to Shia's catholics. They had a profound cultural impact on the region. Safavids and Ottomans did battle it out and their wars had a sectarian basis but it was mostly garden variety jousting of neighboring empires. The Sunni Mughals only had a minor skirmish with the Safavids over Samarkhand . Otherwise their relations were cordial.

    For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    When Iran-backed Hezbollah was perceived to have dealt Israel a blow in the 2006 Lebanon War, it resulted in much admiration for Hezbollah. Almost immediately afterwards however, AQI bombed the al Askari shrine in Samarra, Iraq, setting off much blood letting between Shia and Sunnis and scotching any possible rapprochement. Just goes to show how useful Sunni anti-Shia violence has been to Israeli strategy in the region.

    The ruling and clerical elites of the Sunni Arab world are another matter. They are the ones who really inherit the historical animosity to Iran, which is aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to. The general feeling is that they have no hope of saving the Palestinians but, on the other hand, Israel is not viewed by them as an expansionist threat beyond the Jordan Valley, Gaza, the Golan and Lebanon. The traditional Arab leadership fear that Persians might try to “steal” Islam from its Arab creators is now supplemented by the fear that a dynamic and technologically proficient Iranian state might seek and gain “hegemony” in the region. It’s quite difficult to see how Iran could really do this even if it tried, but such is the mindset of many Sunni Arab leaders, both Islamist and secular. Muhammed Morsi was prepared to explore better relations with Iran after becoming Egypt’s first elected president. But then he was overthrown. There may well be some connection there.
     
    Sunni countries do protest Israel but there is a larger story here. Before the neo Arabization of the muslim world in the 1970s many Muslim countries were rather friendly to Israel. Pakistan and Afghanistan both had some warmth towards the Jewish state. Afghans went as far to proclaim themselves the lost tribes of Israel. Caucasus Muslim countries such as Azerbaijan have good relations with Israel to this day. Your chronology of the Lebanon war and Al Askari is upside down. Al askari was destroyed in Feb 2006 and the Lebanon war commenced in May 2006. Hezbollah was badly damaged in that war even as its PR got a temporary boost. Remember late 2005 to 2007 Iran was actually praised by Arabs for standing up to the West by ramping up its nuclear program, holding a Holocaust cartoons (in response to Mohammad cartoons by the Danish newspaper) , also banning Danish products and threatening to destroy Israel and of course its faction Hezbollahs activities. In their euphoria and hatred of Ariel Sharon(despite his disengagement from Gaza) and general impotence they went gaga over Iran. The hangover occured in 2008 when they realized Iran had essentially captured Iraq and was eyeing more Arab territory.
    Regarding Morsi- atleast give Egyptians some autonomy over their own actions. A lot of Arabs saw the horrors of Islamist regimes to which they were becoming increasingly sympathetic and wished to do away with them.
    , @Ozymandias
    "For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians"

    Oh, absolutely. They care very deeply. Just not enough to let any of them into their own countries. I mean let's not get carried away here.
  96. anonymous[443] • Disclaimer says:
    @Oscar Peterson

    "The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion"
     
    Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting--usually other Arabs.

    It's true Arab-Persian animosity goes back a good way, but so does practically every other permutation of inter-racial/ethnic/tribal rivalry.

    The Persians, like the Byzantines, had a rich and intricate culture and tended to have little regard for most of the Arabs they came into contact with.

    But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created--Islam--and make it more Persian than Arab.

    When Iran was converted to Twelver Shiism in the early 16th century and fought a long series of wars with Sunni Ottoman Turkey for control of Mesopotamia, Arab distrust kindled into animosity.

    "Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do."
     
    Absolutely untrue.

    For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    When Iran-backed Hezbollah was perceived to have dealt Israel a blow in the 2006 Lebanon War, it resulted in much admiration for Hezbollah. Almost immediately afterwards however, AQI bombed the al Askari shrine in Samarra, Iraq, setting off much blood letting between Shia and Sunnis and scotching any possible rapprochement. Just goes to show how useful Sunni anti-Shia violence has been to Israeli strategy in the region.

    The ruling and clerical elites of the Sunni Arab world are another matter. They are the ones who really inherit the historical animosity to Iran, which is aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to. The general feeling is that they have no hope of saving the Palestinians but, on the other hand, Israel is not viewed by them as an expansionist threat beyond the Jordan Valley, Gaza, the Golan and Lebanon. The traditional Arab leadership fear that Persians might try to "steal" Islam from its Arab creators is now supplemented by the fear that a dynamic and technologically proficient Iranian state might seek and gain "hegemony" in the region. It's quite difficult to see how Iran could really do this even if it tried, but such is the mindset of many Sunni Arab leaders, both Islamist and secular. Muhammed Morsi was prepared to explore better relations with Iran after becoming Egypt's first elected president. But then he was overthrown. There may well be some connection there.

    aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to

    I don’t get this sense. Iran has been a relatively poor country. The level of prosperity it did have was largely fueled by oil exports. On the Nature Index is is between Mexico and Chile: https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/global/All/score

  97. @Oscar Peterson

    "There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn’t make anything of it."
     
    You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

    At the end of WW II, various Jewish owners, the Jewish national Fund being the largest, owned about 6% of all the land in the Palestine mandate, and there was little change between 1945 and 1948. What Jews had title to lay almost entirely in a coastal strip and in substantial chunks of the Galilee. Essentially it was a beachhead allowing Jews to position themselves for the military conquests to come.

    In any case, does it need to be pointed out to you that land purchase, however extensive, is nowhere in the world recognized as conferring political sovereignty? So your reasoning is fallacious--if not mendacious--from start to finish.

    The influx of Zionist Jews, protected by British imperial bayonets and intent on creating a state for themselves at the expense of the native Arab population was a crypto-invasion that turned into a conventional invasion in the war and state-formation of 1948. Arabs made up at least 93% of the population of the area in 1918 and were absolutely opposed to the imposition of a Jewish state ("national home") so it was always going to require aggressively invasive scheme to impose Israel on them.

    Selective historical incidents may fly with your crew but not here. You conveniently ignore what transpired before WWII i.e the Palestinian rioting and the British who acquired Ottoman holdings promptly tore up the Balfour declaration to curry favor with the Arabs. By then the Zionists were ambitious enough to include Western Jordan in their maps but usurpers from the Hejaz i.e the Hashemites were given control of Jordan and Iraq.
    It was the Israeli militias who drove out the British and battled the Arabs. Hardly an arms from U.K or U.S were forthcoming so their support for nationhood at the U.N wasnt really worth squat.

    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson

    "Selective historical incidents may fly with your crew but not here. You conveniently ignore what transpired before WWII i.e the Palestinian rioting and the British who acquired Ottoman holdings promptly tore up the Balfour declaration to curry favor with the Arabs. By then the Zionists were ambitious enough to include Western Jordan in their maps but usurpers from the Hejaz i.e the Hashemites were given control of Jordan and Iraq.
    It was the Israeli militias who drove out the British and battled the Arabs. Hardly an arms from U.K or U.S were forthcoming so their support for nationhood at the U.N wasnt really worth squat."
     
    Are you writing in English here? I'd be embarrassed to post something this incoherent. It's as though you used a random word generator to formulate the post.

    I presented specific historical facts to you, and you reply with drivel that has no relevance to anything in your original post much less to anything in my reply to it.

    Perhaps you are still recovering from New Year's Eve.
  98. @Oscar Peterson

    "The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion"
     
    Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting--usually other Arabs.

    It's true Arab-Persian animosity goes back a good way, but so does practically every other permutation of inter-racial/ethnic/tribal rivalry.

    The Persians, like the Byzantines, had a rich and intricate culture and tended to have little regard for most of the Arabs they came into contact with.

    But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created--Islam--and make it more Persian than Arab.

    When Iran was converted to Twelver Shiism in the early 16th century and fought a long series of wars with Sunni Ottoman Turkey for control of Mesopotamia, Arab distrust kindled into animosity.

    "Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do."
     
    Absolutely untrue.

    For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    When Iran-backed Hezbollah was perceived to have dealt Israel a blow in the 2006 Lebanon War, it resulted in much admiration for Hezbollah. Almost immediately afterwards however, AQI bombed the al Askari shrine in Samarra, Iraq, setting off much blood letting between Shia and Sunnis and scotching any possible rapprochement. Just goes to show how useful Sunni anti-Shia violence has been to Israeli strategy in the region.

    The ruling and clerical elites of the Sunni Arab world are another matter. They are the ones who really inherit the historical animosity to Iran, which is aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to. The general feeling is that they have no hope of saving the Palestinians but, on the other hand, Israel is not viewed by them as an expansionist threat beyond the Jordan Valley, Gaza, the Golan and Lebanon. The traditional Arab leadership fear that Persians might try to "steal" Islam from its Arab creators is now supplemented by the fear that a dynamic and technologically proficient Iranian state might seek and gain "hegemony" in the region. It's quite difficult to see how Iran could really do this even if it tried, but such is the mindset of many Sunni Arab leaders, both Islamist and secular. Muhammed Morsi was prepared to explore better relations with Iran after becoming Egypt's first elected president. But then he was overthrown. There may well be some connection there.

    >Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting–usually other Arabs.

    The Arabs really were the 7th Century, Eastern empire equivalent to the Germanic confederations that took down the West. Like many of the men from the north, they’d already been largely introduced to monotheism and more advanced political systems through centuries of contact with Rome. Many of the Rashidun commanders probably once fought for the Byzantines until Heraclius tried to stiff them. (Though in fairness to Heraclius, he really didn’t have any money by the time he finally managed to eject the Sassanids.)

    Of course, a few centuries later when all the conquered Romans and Mesopotamians had become Islamized and Arabized, the Turkish slave soldiers would become their own Germanic-warlord style puppeteers behind the throne…

    >But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created–Islam–and make it more Persian than Arab.

    And in many ways, it did: a lot of the stuff about cleanliness and purity you see in Islam has Zoroastrian origins, as do the intellectual strains in the faith. A lot of the stuff about the ritual segregation of women also has Persian origin: Arab women in the 7th Century were notorious for being fierce and violent, alongside their menfolk. Islam as a faith took time to coalesce after the conquests, like any other religion, despite what the dogma says. It’s no different from the strain of Hellenistic Platonic philosophy found in Christianity.

    It’s best to look at Christianity and Islam as half-brothers who share the same Judaic mother, but were raised by different fathers, one Greco-Roman, the other Persian. The caliphs of Baghdad were repeating-in pious Islamic idiom, of course-many of the pretensions of the long gone Shahanshahs, much like the Catholic Church and Germanic warlords imitated the structure and form of the fallen Roman civilization. Hell, to this day, the Pope is Pontifex Maximus!

    >For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    There’s an ugly strain of truth to the reality that Israel’s Middle Eastern foreign policy successes only last insofar as non-populist, un-democratic regimes-or alternatively, chaos-persists in the region. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that’s the whole story behind the vast improvement in Israel’s foreign policy situation over the last 50 years: their relations with non-Western powers have improved dramatically, and in the cases of Russia, India, and to a more limited extent, China have a basis in genuine ideological sympathy. But that’s definitely a big part of it. The masses in Egypt and Saudi Arabia have no say over what their government does, and that’s crucial in a way the AIPAC crowd will never admit to.

    As far as the Iranians go, persistently overblowing Tehran’s capabilities-regardless of what they actually want-is a well-honed exercise in the Beltway that will not cease for the forseeable future.

    • Agree: Oscar Peterson
    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    "There’s an ugly strain of truth to the reality that Israel’s Middle Eastern foreign policy successes only last insofar as non-populist, un-democratic regimes-or alternatively, chaos-persists in the region. "

    Yes and no. Yes in that populist and revolutionary Arab movements are far more anti Israel than the repressive authoritarian counterparts. No because these countries military capabality and diplomatic outreach is rather poor. Also in time the populists turn into tyrants themselves- see Husseins Jordan and Saddams Iraq.
  99. @SFG
    Come on, every year is the hottest year on record. We get two or three giant hurricanes a year when they used to come every few years.

    Just because the left is wrong on lots of stuff, doesn't mean they're wrong on everything. As Derb says, some things are true even though the Party says they are.

    As a non-scientist, I accept the scientific consensus on global warming. This makes the Right mad at me. I also accept that IQ has a heavily genetic basis, also as per scientific research. This makes the Left mad at me.

    But when I suggest nuclear power as a feasible interim way to reverse the environmental situation without wholly reshaping American society, the Left gets mad. And when I suggest that chalking up the struggles of the less cognitively gifted to their laziness and lack of character is not just counterproductive and wrong, but downright cruel, the Right gets mad.

    Maybe if you are pissing off ideologues of every stripe, you are doing something right.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Consider the massive thermal exhaust port of your split-the-difference-ism.

    Likewise a large majority are non-ideological, so your undue concern with "left" and "right" is likely to lead you astray of that which really matters.

  100. @Oscar Peterson

    "The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion"
     
    Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting--usually other Arabs.

    It's true Arab-Persian animosity goes back a good way, but so does practically every other permutation of inter-racial/ethnic/tribal rivalry.

    The Persians, like the Byzantines, had a rich and intricate culture and tended to have little regard for most of the Arabs they came into contact with.

    But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created--Islam--and make it more Persian than Arab.

    When Iran was converted to Twelver Shiism in the early 16th century and fought a long series of wars with Sunni Ottoman Turkey for control of Mesopotamia, Arab distrust kindled into animosity.

    "Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do."
     
    Absolutely untrue.

    For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    When Iran-backed Hezbollah was perceived to have dealt Israel a blow in the 2006 Lebanon War, it resulted in much admiration for Hezbollah. Almost immediately afterwards however, AQI bombed the al Askari shrine in Samarra, Iraq, setting off much blood letting between Shia and Sunnis and scotching any possible rapprochement. Just goes to show how useful Sunni anti-Shia violence has been to Israeli strategy in the region.

    The ruling and clerical elites of the Sunni Arab world are another matter. They are the ones who really inherit the historical animosity to Iran, which is aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to. The general feeling is that they have no hope of saving the Palestinians but, on the other hand, Israel is not viewed by them as an expansionist threat beyond the Jordan Valley, Gaza, the Golan and Lebanon. The traditional Arab leadership fear that Persians might try to "steal" Islam from its Arab creators is now supplemented by the fear that a dynamic and technologically proficient Iranian state might seek and gain "hegemony" in the region. It's quite difficult to see how Iran could really do this even if it tried, but such is the mindset of many Sunni Arab leaders, both Islamist and secular. Muhammed Morsi was prepared to explore better relations with Iran after becoming Egypt's first elected president. But then he was overthrown. There may well be some connection there.

    Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting–usually other Arabs.

    It’s true Arab-Persian animosity goes back a good way, but so does practically every other permutation of inter-racial/ethnic/tribal rivalry.

    This argument is the equivalent of hand waving . I cannot take your position seriously if you give so little thought into such matters. Islam was essentially a souped version of Judaism meant for Arabs. If there was no constant Persian (and to a lesser extant) Byzantine expansion there would be no Islam. Anyhow there is no historical evidence of Mohammad . There is a strong likelihood that he was a Christian warlord who got mythologized into various contacts with Byzantines and Sassanid and that the Abbasids cooked him up. Either way Persian Arab led to Islam which delivered Sassanids a death blow.

    But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created–Islam–and make it more Persian than Arab.

    Arabs were rather in awe of Persian culture as they were richer, more cosmopolitan and materially advanced and while initially there was disdain for Persian peoples as a conquered race. In time Arabs in Persia and elswhere adopted Persian culture, dress, manners and language and got Persianized. Remember Islam was spread across the Eastern sphere in a Persianate form. In the West ARabic predominated because Iraq,Jordan, Syria and Palestine were Semitic speaking and Arabic was easy fit. North Africa apart from a few cities was mostly sparsely populated by Amazigh tribes. Egypt was the only linguistic crossover on a considerable scale. It is similar Romans viewed Greece though Arabs in Arab territories proper never got Persianized when compared to educated Romans who started speaking Greek. They never percieved it as a cultural threat but a vehicle to promote Islam. There was a genuine syncretic culture which seemed to somewhat rehabilitate Arab /Persian hatreds but the Turks put a dent in that before it could be completed and they reverted to competing factions.

    “When Iran was converted to Twelver Shiism in the early 16th century and fought a long series of wars with Sunni Ottoman Turkey for control of Mesopotamia, Arab distrust kindled into animosity.”
    Hahaha. No. This Sunni Shia as a proxy for Arab /Persian is even more recent than the 16th century. The very first Shias were Arab and remained so for a while. True Sunni political and demographic ascedancy started really with the Wahhabis who can be viewed as Lutherans to Shia’s catholics. They had a profound cultural impact on the region. Safavids and Ottomans did battle it out and their wars had a sectarian basis but it was mostly garden variety jousting of neighboring empires. The Sunni Mughals only had a minor skirmish with the Safavids over Samarkhand . Otherwise their relations were cordial.

    For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    When Iran-backed Hezbollah was perceived to have dealt Israel a blow in the 2006 Lebanon War, it resulted in much admiration for Hezbollah. Almost immediately afterwards however, AQI bombed the al Askari shrine in Samarra, Iraq, setting off much blood letting between Shia and Sunnis and scotching any possible rapprochement. Just goes to show how useful Sunni anti-Shia violence has been to Israeli strategy in the region.

    The ruling and clerical elites of the Sunni Arab world are another matter. They are the ones who really inherit the historical animosity to Iran, which is aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to. The general feeling is that they have no hope of saving the Palestinians but, on the other hand, Israel is not viewed by them as an expansionist threat beyond the Jordan Valley, Gaza, the Golan and Lebanon. The traditional Arab leadership fear that Persians might try to “steal” Islam from its Arab creators is now supplemented by the fear that a dynamic and technologically proficient Iranian state might seek and gain “hegemony” in the region. It’s quite difficult to see how Iran could really do this even if it tried, but such is the mindset of many Sunni Arab leaders, both Islamist and secular. Muhammed Morsi was prepared to explore better relations with Iran after becoming Egypt’s first elected president. But then he was overthrown. There may well be some connection there.

    Sunni countries do protest Israel but there is a larger story here. Before the neo Arabization of the muslim world in the 1970s many Muslim countries were rather friendly to Israel. Pakistan and Afghanistan both had some warmth towards the Jewish state. Afghans went as far to proclaim themselves the lost tribes of Israel. Caucasus Muslim countries such as Azerbaijan have good relations with Israel to this day. Your chronology of the Lebanon war and Al Askari is upside down. Al askari was destroyed in Feb 2006 and the Lebanon war commenced in May 2006. Hezbollah was badly damaged in that war even as its PR got a temporary boost. Remember late 2005 to 2007 Iran was actually praised by Arabs for standing up to the West by ramping up its nuclear program, holding a Holocaust cartoons (in response to Mohammad cartoons by the Danish newspaper) , also banning Danish products and threatening to destroy Israel and of course its faction Hezbollahs activities. In their euphoria and hatred of Ariel Sharon(despite his disengagement from Gaza) and general impotence they went gaga over Iran. The hangover occured in 2008 when they realized Iran had essentially captured Iraq and was eyeing more Arab territory.
    Regarding Morsi- atleast give Egyptians some autonomy over their own actions. A lot of Arabs saw the horrors of Islamist regimes to which they were becoming increasingly sympathetic and wished to do away with them.

    • Thanks: Lot
    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson
    Most of what you say here is semi-coherent.

    "This argument is the equivalent of hand waving . I cannot take your position seriously if you give so little thought into such matters."
     
    I have no idea what this means.

    The only valid point I can see in your entire post is the one about the relative timing of the first al Askari shrine bombing and the July, 2006 Lebanon War (with the second al Askari bombing following in 2007.) Nevertheless, the basic point is still valid. As the NYT reported in the immediate aftermath of the war:

    "Now, with hundreds of Lebanese dead and Hezbollah holding out against the vaunted Israeli military for more than two weeks, the tide of public opinion across the Arab world is surging behind the organization, transforming the Shiite group’s leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, into a folk hero and forcing a change in official statements.

    The Saudi royal family and King Abdullah II of Jordan, who were initially more worried about the rising power of Shiite Iran, Hezbollah’s main sponsor, are scrambling to distance themselves from Washington.

    An outpouring of newspaper columns, cartoons, blogs and public poetry readings have showered praise on Hezbollah while attacking the United States and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice for trumpeting American plans for a “new Middle East” that they say has led only to violence and repression."
     
    Support across the Muslim world for Hezbollah's achievements in the summer of 2006 was very high despite the early condemnations of Hezbollah by stooges like Mubarak and Abdullah II of Jordan. However, the cumulative effects of the two al-Askari mosque bombings, increasing Sunni-Shia violence in Iraq, and the cleansing of Sunnis from most parts of Baghdad in 2006-7 in conjunction with the US "surge" essentially reversed the gains in Sunni-Shia relations that Hezbollah's success against the IDF had generated.
    , @Dr Van Nostrand

    Either way Persian Arab led to Islam which delivered Sassanids a death blow.
     
    I meant the millennia old Persian Arab rivalry where Arabs were usually at the receiving end led to Islam.
  101. @SFG
    Come on, every year is the hottest year on record. We get two or three giant hurricanes a year when they used to come every few years.

    Just because the left is wrong on lots of stuff, doesn't mean they're wrong on everything. As Derb says, some things are true even though the Party says they are.

    Insty just linked to a story about Glacier National Park removing all its signs warning that the namesake glaciers would be gone by 2020. If all the remedies didn’t involve accumulating more power in the hands of our betters, I’d be more willing to listen.
    The newspapers in Ireland recently featured a story about government considering a ban on the burning of solid fuel for warmth, something those in the countryside have done for time out of mind, juxtaposed with the same government’s plans to expand Dublin airport with an eye toward increasing its traffic from 30 to 40 million passengers annually by 2023.
    Now, who are the rubes here?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    SFG's a little slow on the uptake. He'll get there eventually.

    https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/BAMS-D-17-0184.1

  102. @nebulafox
    >Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting–usually other Arabs.

    The Arabs really were the 7th Century, Eastern empire equivalent to the Germanic confederations that took down the West. Like many of the men from the north, they'd already been largely introduced to monotheism and more advanced political systems through centuries of contact with Rome. Many of the Rashidun commanders probably once fought for the Byzantines until Heraclius tried to stiff them. (Though in fairness to Heraclius, he really didn't have any money by the time he finally managed to eject the Sassanids.)

    Of course, a few centuries later when all the conquered Romans and Mesopotamians had become Islamized and Arabized, the Turkish slave soldiers would become their own Germanic-warlord style puppeteers behind the throne...

    >But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created–Islam–and make it more Persian than Arab.

    And in many ways, it did: a lot of the stuff about cleanliness and purity you see in Islam has Zoroastrian origins, as do the intellectual strains in the faith. A lot of the stuff about the ritual segregation of women also has Persian origin: Arab women in the 7th Century were notorious for being fierce and violent, alongside their menfolk. Islam as a faith took time to coalesce after the conquests, like any other religion, despite what the dogma says. It's no different from the strain of Hellenistic Platonic philosophy found in Christianity.

    It's best to look at Christianity and Islam as half-brothers who share the same Judaic mother, but were raised by different fathers, one Greco-Roman, the other Persian. The caliphs of Baghdad were repeating-in pious Islamic idiom, of course-many of the pretensions of the long gone Shahanshahs, much like the Catholic Church and Germanic warlords imitated the structure and form of the fallen Roman civilization. Hell, to this day, the Pope is Pontifex Maximus!

    >For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    There's an ugly strain of truth to the reality that Israel's Middle Eastern foreign policy successes only last insofar as non-populist, un-democratic regimes-or alternatively, chaos-persists in the region. I wouldn't go so far as to say that's the whole story behind the vast improvement in Israel's foreign policy situation over the last 50 years: their relations with non-Western powers have improved dramatically, and in the cases of Russia, India, and to a more limited extent, China have a basis in genuine ideological sympathy. But that's definitely a big part of it. The masses in Egypt and Saudi Arabia have no say over what their government does, and that's crucial in a way the AIPAC crowd will never admit to.

    As far as the Iranians go, persistently overblowing Tehran's capabilities-regardless of what they actually want-is a well-honed exercise in the Beltway that will not cease for the forseeable future.

    “There’s an ugly strain of truth to the reality that Israel’s Middle Eastern foreign policy successes only last insofar as non-populist, un-democratic regimes-or alternatively, chaos-persists in the region. ”

    Yes and no. Yes in that populist and revolutionary Arab movements are far more anti Israel than the repressive authoritarian counterparts. No because these countries military capabality and diplomatic outreach is rather poor. Also in time the populists turn into tyrants themselves- see Husseins Jordan and Saddams Iraq.

  103. @JMcG
    Insty just linked to a story about Glacier National Park removing all its signs warning that the namesake glaciers would be gone by 2020. If all the remedies didn’t involve accumulating more power in the hands of our betters, I’d be more willing to listen.
    The newspapers in Ireland recently featured a story about government considering a ban on the burning of solid fuel for warmth, something those in the countryside have done for time out of mind, juxtaposed with the same government’s plans to expand Dublin airport with an eye toward increasing its traffic from 30 to 40 million passengers annually by 2023.
    Now, who are the rubes here?

    SFG’s a little slow on the uptake. He’ll get there eventually.

    https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/BAMS-D-17-0184.1

  104. @nebulafox
    As a non-scientist, I accept the scientific consensus on global warming. This makes the Right mad at me. I also accept that IQ has a heavily genetic basis, also as per scientific research. This makes the Left mad at me.

    But when I suggest nuclear power as a feasible interim way to reverse the environmental situation without wholly reshaping American society, the Left gets mad. And when I suggest that chalking up the struggles of the less cognitively gifted to their laziness and lack of character is not just counterproductive and wrong, but downright cruel, the Right gets mad.

    Maybe if you are pissing off ideologues of every stripe, you are doing something right.

    Consider the massive thermal exhaust port of your split-the-difference-ism.

    Likewise a large majority are non-ideological, so your undue concern with “left” and “right” is likely to lead you astray of that which really matters.

  105. @Dr Van Nostrand
    Selective historical incidents may fly with your crew but not here. You conveniently ignore what transpired before WWII i.e the Palestinian rioting and the British who acquired Ottoman holdings promptly tore up the Balfour declaration to curry favor with the Arabs. By then the Zionists were ambitious enough to include Western Jordan in their maps but usurpers from the Hejaz i.e the Hashemites were given control of Jordan and Iraq.
    It was the Israeli militias who drove out the British and battled the Arabs. Hardly an arms from U.K or U.S were forthcoming so their support for nationhood at the U.N wasnt really worth squat.

    “Selective historical incidents may fly with your crew but not here. You conveniently ignore what transpired before WWII i.e the Palestinian rioting and the British who acquired Ottoman holdings promptly tore up the Balfour declaration to curry favor with the Arabs. By then the Zionists were ambitious enough to include Western Jordan in their maps but usurpers from the Hejaz i.e the Hashemites were given control of Jordan and Iraq.
    It was the Israeli militias who drove out the British and battled the Arabs. Hardly an arms from U.K or U.S were forthcoming so their support for nationhood at the U.N wasnt really worth squat.”

    Are you writing in English here? I’d be embarrassed to post something this incoherent. It’s as though you used a random word generator to formulate the post.

    I presented specific historical facts to you, and you reply with drivel that has no relevance to anything in your original post much less to anything in my reply to it.

    Perhaps you are still recovering from New Year’s Eve.

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    If you can't understand or are thoroughly ignorant of basic facts and concepts don't blame the messenger. You should be indeed be embarrassed for attempting to pass blame on me for using this lame trolling attempt.
  106. @Dr Van Nostrand

    Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting–usually other Arabs.

    It’s true Arab-Persian animosity goes back a good way, but so does practically every other permutation of inter-racial/ethnic/tribal rivalry.
     
    This argument is the equivalent of hand waving . I cannot take your position seriously if you give so little thought into such matters. Islam was essentially a souped version of Judaism meant for Arabs. If there was no constant Persian (and to a lesser extant) Byzantine expansion there would be no Islam. Anyhow there is no historical evidence of Mohammad . There is a strong likelihood that he was a Christian warlord who got mythologized into various contacts with Byzantines and Sassanid and that the Abbasids cooked him up. Either way Persian Arab led to Islam which delivered Sassanids a death blow.


    But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created–Islam–and make it more Persian than Arab.
     
    Arabs were rather in awe of Persian culture as they were richer, more cosmopolitan and materially advanced and while initially there was disdain for Persian peoples as a conquered race. In time Arabs in Persia and elswhere adopted Persian culture, dress, manners and language and got Persianized. Remember Islam was spread across the Eastern sphere in a Persianate form. In the West ARabic predominated because Iraq,Jordan, Syria and Palestine were Semitic speaking and Arabic was easy fit. North Africa apart from a few cities was mostly sparsely populated by Amazigh tribes. Egypt was the only linguistic crossover on a considerable scale. It is similar Romans viewed Greece though Arabs in Arab territories proper never got Persianized when compared to educated Romans who started speaking Greek. They never percieved it as a cultural threat but a vehicle to promote Islam. There was a genuine syncretic culture which seemed to somewhat rehabilitate Arab /Persian hatreds but the Turks put a dent in that before it could be completed and they reverted to competing factions.

    "When Iran was converted to Twelver Shiism in the early 16th century and fought a long series of wars with Sunni Ottoman Turkey for control of Mesopotamia, Arab distrust kindled into animosity."
    Hahaha. No. This Sunni Shia as a proxy for Arab /Persian is even more recent than the 16th century. The very first Shias were Arab and remained so for a while. True Sunni political and demographic ascedancy started really with the Wahhabis who can be viewed as Lutherans to Shia's catholics. They had a profound cultural impact on the region. Safavids and Ottomans did battle it out and their wars had a sectarian basis but it was mostly garden variety jousting of neighboring empires. The Sunni Mughals only had a minor skirmish with the Safavids over Samarkhand . Otherwise their relations were cordial.

    For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    When Iran-backed Hezbollah was perceived to have dealt Israel a blow in the 2006 Lebanon War, it resulted in much admiration for Hezbollah. Almost immediately afterwards however, AQI bombed the al Askari shrine in Samarra, Iraq, setting off much blood letting between Shia and Sunnis and scotching any possible rapprochement. Just goes to show how useful Sunni anti-Shia violence has been to Israeli strategy in the region.

    The ruling and clerical elites of the Sunni Arab world are another matter. They are the ones who really inherit the historical animosity to Iran, which is aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to. The general feeling is that they have no hope of saving the Palestinians but, on the other hand, Israel is not viewed by them as an expansionist threat beyond the Jordan Valley, Gaza, the Golan and Lebanon. The traditional Arab leadership fear that Persians might try to “steal” Islam from its Arab creators is now supplemented by the fear that a dynamic and technologically proficient Iranian state might seek and gain “hegemony” in the region. It’s quite difficult to see how Iran could really do this even if it tried, but such is the mindset of many Sunni Arab leaders, both Islamist and secular. Muhammed Morsi was prepared to explore better relations with Iran after becoming Egypt’s first elected president. But then he was overthrown. There may well be some connection there.
     
    Sunni countries do protest Israel but there is a larger story here. Before the neo Arabization of the muslim world in the 1970s many Muslim countries were rather friendly to Israel. Pakistan and Afghanistan both had some warmth towards the Jewish state. Afghans went as far to proclaim themselves the lost tribes of Israel. Caucasus Muslim countries such as Azerbaijan have good relations with Israel to this day. Your chronology of the Lebanon war and Al Askari is upside down. Al askari was destroyed in Feb 2006 and the Lebanon war commenced in May 2006. Hezbollah was badly damaged in that war even as its PR got a temporary boost. Remember late 2005 to 2007 Iran was actually praised by Arabs for standing up to the West by ramping up its nuclear program, holding a Holocaust cartoons (in response to Mohammad cartoons by the Danish newspaper) , also banning Danish products and threatening to destroy Israel and of course its faction Hezbollahs activities. In their euphoria and hatred of Ariel Sharon(despite his disengagement from Gaza) and general impotence they went gaga over Iran. The hangover occured in 2008 when they realized Iran had essentially captured Iraq and was eyeing more Arab territory.
    Regarding Morsi- atleast give Egyptians some autonomy over their own actions. A lot of Arabs saw the horrors of Islamist regimes to which they were becoming increasingly sympathetic and wished to do away with them.

    Most of what you say here is semi-coherent.

    “This argument is the equivalent of hand waving . I cannot take your position seriously if you give so little thought into such matters.”

    I have no idea what this means.

    The only valid point I can see in your entire post is the one about the relative timing of the first al Askari shrine bombing and the July, 2006 Lebanon War (with the second al Askari bombing following in 2007.) Nevertheless, the basic point is still valid. As the NYT reported in the immediate aftermath of the war:

    “Now, with hundreds of Lebanese dead and Hezbollah holding out against the vaunted Israeli military for more than two weeks, the tide of public opinion across the Arab world is surging behind the organization, transforming the Shiite group’s leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, into a folk hero and forcing a change in official statements.

    The Saudi royal family and King Abdullah II of Jordan, who were initially more worried about the rising power of Shiite Iran, Hezbollah’s main sponsor, are scrambling to distance themselves from Washington.

    An outpouring of newspaper columns, cartoons, blogs and public poetry readings have showered praise on Hezbollah while attacking the United States and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice for trumpeting American plans for a “new Middle East” that they say has led only to violence and repression.”

    Support across the Muslim world for Hezbollah’s achievements in the summer of 2006 was very high despite the early condemnations of Hezbollah by stooges like Mubarak and Abdullah II of Jordan. However, the cumulative effects of the two al-Askari mosque bombings, increasing Sunni-Shia violence in Iraq, and the cleansing of Sunnis from most parts of Baghdad in 2006-7 in conjunction with the US “surge” essentially reversed the gains in Sunni-Shia relations that Hezbollah’s success against the IDF had generated.

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    "I have no idea what this means."

    From your posts I can see you have no idea of what anything means. You are a like a time traveller from the Dark ages trying to figure out an iphone.
  107. @Oscar Peterson

    "There was no invasion as there was nothing to invade one most of the land did not belong to the Palestinians. The Zionist settlers purchased the lands from the ottomans and landlords who couldn’t make anything of it."
     
    You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

    At the end of WW II, various Jewish owners, the Jewish national Fund being the largest, owned about 6% of all the land in the Palestine mandate, and there was little change between 1945 and 1948. What Jews had title to lay almost entirely in a coastal strip and in substantial chunks of the Galilee. Essentially it was a beachhead allowing Jews to position themselves for the military conquests to come.

    In any case, does it need to be pointed out to you that land purchase, however extensive, is nowhere in the world recognized as conferring political sovereignty? So your reasoning is fallacious--if not mendacious--from start to finish.

    The influx of Zionist Jews, protected by British imperial bayonets and intent on creating a state for themselves at the expense of the native Arab population was a crypto-invasion that turned into a conventional invasion in the war and state-formation of 1948. Arabs made up at least 93% of the population of the area in 1918 and were absolutely opposed to the imposition of a Jewish state ("national home") so it was always going to require aggressively invasive scheme to impose Israel on them.

    This may be the most morally bankrupt post Steve has ever made.

    Israel and the United States bomb, invade, and occupy the Middle East for a century and counting and Steve makes a snarky top post insinuation that Arabs are conflict prone.

    • Troll: XYZ (no Mr.)
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Israel and the United States bomb, invade, and occupy the Middle East for a century and counting
     
    True, but the US and Israel can get away with so much of this because there is so much bad blood in the Arab/Muslim world along sectarian and clan lines. What the US and Israel learned from Libya and Syria is you don't need to really invade to mess up the nation. Just arm one faction and they will fight other factions. Jews are united, Arabs are divided. It's a sad fact.
    , @Dr Van Nostrand
    Yes , the Arab world would be a Scandinavia if it werent for Israel and U.S. Carry on.
  108. @Anonymous
    Is Saudi sand good for anything?

    Is Saudi sand good for anything?

    Blinding pursuers?

  109. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    This may be the most morally bankrupt post Steve has ever made.

    Israel and the United States bomb, invade, and occupy the Middle East for a century and counting and Steve makes a snarky top post insinuation that Arabs are conflict prone.

    Israel and the United States bomb, invade, and occupy the Middle East for a century and counting

    True, but the US and Israel can get away with so much of this because there is so much bad blood in the Arab/Muslim world along sectarian and clan lines. What the US and Israel learned from Libya and Syria is you don’t need to really invade to mess up the nation. Just arm one faction and they will fight other factions. Jews are united, Arabs are divided. It’s a sad fact.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The heaviest burden on my heart and my mind is the realization of what I did in Iraq.

    Those poor fucking sand people were a bunch of simpletons in mud huts... and this big fucking 800 pound American gorilla was in their back yard and it (the gorilla... me and my 240G) thumped them when they acted out of place and we called it defensive, justified, understandable, and bloody well American. God Bless the US fucking A.

    Then I became aware of the JQ. Slowly. At some point the coincidences began to form a pattern, and it was as if every time I looked into a subject of moral and national concern, there they were with their little hats.

    Then one day I began to look into the neoconservative movement. I used to consider myself one. I thought Iraq was the right thing to do.

    Then I saw the names. Dozens of them. Movers and shakers of the political ruling class, all with a distinctive je ne sais quois.... but we do.

    I look into my son’s eyes that are nearly identical to mine, and I know one day he will feel the call of the cadence march and drum. I only hope that by that time we live in a nation we can call our own, who only lets slip the dogs of war to survive.

    All those angry little shits over there... keep the embassy. Y’all fucking suck, but it’s your patch of shit. Do as you will with it as you have for the last three thousand years.
  110. @Oscar Peterson

    "Selective historical incidents may fly with your crew but not here. You conveniently ignore what transpired before WWII i.e the Palestinian rioting and the British who acquired Ottoman holdings promptly tore up the Balfour declaration to curry favor with the Arabs. By then the Zionists were ambitious enough to include Western Jordan in their maps but usurpers from the Hejaz i.e the Hashemites were given control of Jordan and Iraq.
    It was the Israeli militias who drove out the British and battled the Arabs. Hardly an arms from U.K or U.S were forthcoming so their support for nationhood at the U.N wasnt really worth squat."
     
    Are you writing in English here? I'd be embarrassed to post something this incoherent. It's as though you used a random word generator to formulate the post.

    I presented specific historical facts to you, and you reply with drivel that has no relevance to anything in your original post much less to anything in my reply to it.

    Perhaps you are still recovering from New Year's Eve.

    If you can’t understand or are thoroughly ignorant of basic facts and concepts don’t blame the messenger. You should be indeed be embarrassed for attempting to pass blame on me for using this lame trolling attempt.

  111. @Oscar Peterson
    Most of what you say here is semi-coherent.

    "This argument is the equivalent of hand waving . I cannot take your position seriously if you give so little thought into such matters."
     
    I have no idea what this means.

    The only valid point I can see in your entire post is the one about the relative timing of the first al Askari shrine bombing and the July, 2006 Lebanon War (with the second al Askari bombing following in 2007.) Nevertheless, the basic point is still valid. As the NYT reported in the immediate aftermath of the war:

    "Now, with hundreds of Lebanese dead and Hezbollah holding out against the vaunted Israeli military for more than two weeks, the tide of public opinion across the Arab world is surging behind the organization, transforming the Shiite group’s leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, into a folk hero and forcing a change in official statements.

    The Saudi royal family and King Abdullah II of Jordan, who were initially more worried about the rising power of Shiite Iran, Hezbollah’s main sponsor, are scrambling to distance themselves from Washington.

    An outpouring of newspaper columns, cartoons, blogs and public poetry readings have showered praise on Hezbollah while attacking the United States and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice for trumpeting American plans for a “new Middle East” that they say has led only to violence and repression."
     
    Support across the Muslim world for Hezbollah's achievements in the summer of 2006 was very high despite the early condemnations of Hezbollah by stooges like Mubarak and Abdullah II of Jordan. However, the cumulative effects of the two al-Askari mosque bombings, increasing Sunni-Shia violence in Iraq, and the cleansing of Sunnis from most parts of Baghdad in 2006-7 in conjunction with the US "surge" essentially reversed the gains in Sunni-Shia relations that Hezbollah's success against the IDF had generated.

    “I have no idea what this means.”

    From your posts I can see you have no idea of what anything means. You are a like a time traveller from the Dark ages trying to figure out an iphone.

    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson
    Well, at least you're writing in English this time. Maybe the key for you is to keep comments to one paragraph like this one. It's always best to know one's limitations.
  112. @Dr Van Nostrand

    Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting–usually other Arabs.

    It’s true Arab-Persian animosity goes back a good way, but so does practically every other permutation of inter-racial/ethnic/tribal rivalry.
     
    This argument is the equivalent of hand waving . I cannot take your position seriously if you give so little thought into such matters. Islam was essentially a souped version of Judaism meant for Arabs. If there was no constant Persian (and to a lesser extant) Byzantine expansion there would be no Islam. Anyhow there is no historical evidence of Mohammad . There is a strong likelihood that he was a Christian warlord who got mythologized into various contacts with Byzantines and Sassanid and that the Abbasids cooked him up. Either way Persian Arab led to Islam which delivered Sassanids a death blow.


    But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created–Islam–and make it more Persian than Arab.
     
    Arabs were rather in awe of Persian culture as they were richer, more cosmopolitan and materially advanced and while initially there was disdain for Persian peoples as a conquered race. In time Arabs in Persia and elswhere adopted Persian culture, dress, manners and language and got Persianized. Remember Islam was spread across the Eastern sphere in a Persianate form. In the West ARabic predominated because Iraq,Jordan, Syria and Palestine were Semitic speaking and Arabic was easy fit. North Africa apart from a few cities was mostly sparsely populated by Amazigh tribes. Egypt was the only linguistic crossover on a considerable scale. It is similar Romans viewed Greece though Arabs in Arab territories proper never got Persianized when compared to educated Romans who started speaking Greek. They never percieved it as a cultural threat but a vehicle to promote Islam. There was a genuine syncretic culture which seemed to somewhat rehabilitate Arab /Persian hatreds but the Turks put a dent in that before it could be completed and they reverted to competing factions.

    "When Iran was converted to Twelver Shiism in the early 16th century and fought a long series of wars with Sunni Ottoman Turkey for control of Mesopotamia, Arab distrust kindled into animosity."
    Hahaha. No. This Sunni Shia as a proxy for Arab /Persian is even more recent than the 16th century. The very first Shias were Arab and remained so for a while. True Sunni political and demographic ascedancy started really with the Wahhabis who can be viewed as Lutherans to Shia's catholics. They had a profound cultural impact on the region. Safavids and Ottomans did battle it out and their wars had a sectarian basis but it was mostly garden variety jousting of neighboring empires. The Sunni Mughals only had a minor skirmish with the Safavids over Samarkhand . Otherwise their relations were cordial.

    For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    When Iran-backed Hezbollah was perceived to have dealt Israel a blow in the 2006 Lebanon War, it resulted in much admiration for Hezbollah. Almost immediately afterwards however, AQI bombed the al Askari shrine in Samarra, Iraq, setting off much blood letting between Shia and Sunnis and scotching any possible rapprochement. Just goes to show how useful Sunni anti-Shia violence has been to Israeli strategy in the region.

    The ruling and clerical elites of the Sunni Arab world are another matter. They are the ones who really inherit the historical animosity to Iran, which is aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to. The general feeling is that they have no hope of saving the Palestinians but, on the other hand, Israel is not viewed by them as an expansionist threat beyond the Jordan Valley, Gaza, the Golan and Lebanon. The traditional Arab leadership fear that Persians might try to “steal” Islam from its Arab creators is now supplemented by the fear that a dynamic and technologically proficient Iranian state might seek and gain “hegemony” in the region. It’s quite difficult to see how Iran could really do this even if it tried, but such is the mindset of many Sunni Arab leaders, both Islamist and secular. Muhammed Morsi was prepared to explore better relations with Iran after becoming Egypt’s first elected president. But then he was overthrown. There may well be some connection there.
     
    Sunni countries do protest Israel but there is a larger story here. Before the neo Arabization of the muslim world in the 1970s many Muslim countries were rather friendly to Israel. Pakistan and Afghanistan both had some warmth towards the Jewish state. Afghans went as far to proclaim themselves the lost tribes of Israel. Caucasus Muslim countries such as Azerbaijan have good relations with Israel to this day. Your chronology of the Lebanon war and Al Askari is upside down. Al askari was destroyed in Feb 2006 and the Lebanon war commenced in May 2006. Hezbollah was badly damaged in that war even as its PR got a temporary boost. Remember late 2005 to 2007 Iran was actually praised by Arabs for standing up to the West by ramping up its nuclear program, holding a Holocaust cartoons (in response to Mohammad cartoons by the Danish newspaper) , also banning Danish products and threatening to destroy Israel and of course its faction Hezbollahs activities. In their euphoria and hatred of Ariel Sharon(despite his disengagement from Gaza) and general impotence they went gaga over Iran. The hangover occured in 2008 when they realized Iran had essentially captured Iraq and was eyeing more Arab territory.
    Regarding Morsi- atleast give Egyptians some autonomy over their own actions. A lot of Arabs saw the horrors of Islamist regimes to which they were becoming increasingly sympathetic and wished to do away with them.

    Either way Persian Arab led to Islam which delivered Sassanids a death blow.

    I meant the millennia old Persian Arab rivalry where Arabs were usually at the receiving end led to Islam.

  113. Anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Israel and the United States bomb, invade, and occupy the Middle East for a century and counting
     
    True, but the US and Israel can get away with so much of this because there is so much bad blood in the Arab/Muslim world along sectarian and clan lines. What the US and Israel learned from Libya and Syria is you don't need to really invade to mess up the nation. Just arm one faction and they will fight other factions. Jews are united, Arabs are divided. It's a sad fact.

    The heaviest burden on my heart and my mind is the realization of what I did in Iraq.

    Those poor fucking sand people were a bunch of simpletons in mud huts… and this big fucking 800 pound American gorilla was in their back yard and it (the gorilla… me and my 240G) thumped them when they acted out of place and we called it defensive, justified, understandable, and bloody well American. God Bless the US fucking A.

    Then I became aware of the JQ. Slowly. At some point the coincidences began to form a pattern, and it was as if every time I looked into a subject of moral and national concern, there they were with their little hats.

    Then one day I began to look into the neoconservative movement. I used to consider myself one. I thought Iraq was the right thing to do.

    Then I saw the names. Dozens of them. Movers and shakers of the political ruling class, all with a distinctive je ne sais quois…. but we do.

    I look into my son’s eyes that are nearly identical to mine, and I know one day he will feel the call of the cadence march and drum. I only hope that by that time we live in a nation we can call our own, who only lets slip the dogs of war to survive.

    All those angry little shits over there… keep the embassy. Y’all fucking suck, but it’s your patch of shit. Do as you will with it as you have for the last three thousand years.

    • Thanks: JMcG
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I used to admire Neocons too. Supported the Iraq War even though I knew WMD was BS; I still thought neocons and others were partly driven by idealism to reform the Middle East. And then, the scales began to fall off. The problem wasn't just with 'left-wing Jews' as I once thought. Neocons and 'liberal' Jews were always working together. All this 'democracy' and 'liberal' talk is total BS. Jews will work with neo-nazis in Ukraine and Saudis & Isis in Middle East. It all comes down to "Is it superduper for Jews?" And if millions of lives are destroyed? In Jewish eyes, they are all cattle, untermensch. The rape of Russia, the anti-white smears, White Nakba, sodomy as new religion, pornification of pop culture, outrageous Russia collusion hoax, and etc. all can be mainly traced back to Jews. Jewish power has gotten vile beyond what I thought was possible.
  114. @Anonymous
    This may be the most morally bankrupt post Steve has ever made.

    Israel and the United States bomb, invade, and occupy the Middle East for a century and counting and Steve makes a snarky top post insinuation that Arabs are conflict prone.

    Yes , the Arab world would be a Scandinavia if it werent for Israel and U.S. Carry on.

  115. @Dr Van Nostrand

    Now one for you: is any of what’s wrong with the ME today the responsibility (in both senses, causal and remedial) of Uncle Sam? Because my sense is that you will say, not “our” fault, yet “our” job to bomb these savages into democracy. But you tell me.
     
    Depends on how far back you want to go. And even that it is quite complicated as the Middle East is a big place with various sects and tribes(though mostly Muslim) still at odds with each other. Most of the maladies affecting the Middle East are due to the Sykes Picot treaty and creating nation states out of thin air with no regard to ethnic composition or geographic realities. We are now witnessing the collapse of these WWI era entities almost a 100 years later. The only ones which survive are Egypt ,GCC and North African countries which more or less correspond to some degree of ethno linguistic commonality. Obviously the Arabic language and Islam is not a sufficient glue absent the Caliph to cement such a large region.
    Whether or not U.S would have destroyed Iraq, it would have destroyed itself. Though U.S should have avoided that due to bad karma. All in all, U.S may withdraw from the Middle East due to fracking (have you hugged a fracker today as Instapundit put it) and need not patrol the straits of Hormuz.
    Leave them alone and let them go at it and let Allah/Yahweh figure it out.

    “Most of the maladies affecting the Middle East are due to the Sykes Picot treaty and creating nation states out of thin air with no regard to ethnic composition or geographic realities.”

    Seems more like it was specifically designed to split some of those compositions up. Long ago Wokeness. Diversity will be their strength! Worked out well…

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    Before the 1970s Lebanon was held as a role model for sectarian unity where Christians, Shias and Sunnis could live together in peace with the Lebanese identity and their charming and quaint mix of Francophone and Levantine cultures. That fell apart quickly when Muslims realized that they were the majority and should be running the show. The Maronites thought otherwise and cozied up to Israel. Meanwhile the Orthodox and Shias invited Syria and supported Palestine even as Syrians hated Palestinians . Mustafa Talas referred to Arafat as the son of 50000 whores. Later after the Israelis withdrew in disgrace due to the megalomania of then defense minister Ariel Sharon, the Shias and Maronites got together because...I dont care anymore. My point is this a region of shifting alliances, todays good guys and allies and tomorrows hostiles and vice versa. There is no point making sense of such countries. Syria is Lebanon on steroids. Why even bother? Ill just say this about Assad- no one was more dedicated to protecting the Christian minority in the Middle East. "secular" Mubarak let the Ikhwaan loose on the Copts while Saddam sidelined them when he included Allahu Akbar in the flag post Gulf War I to help heal wounds with other Arab states. Jordanian monarchy tolerate Palestinian Christians but dont allow them to build any new churches. Usual deal. But then Assad wasnt really Muslim but an Allawi - a renegade sect of Ismaili Islam . Allawis are as Muslim as Christians are Jewish or so the analogy goes.
  116. @Oscar Peterson

    "The people of UAE have poems nearly 3000 years old which celebrate the heroism of local bedouin chieftains thwarting Iranian plans of expansion"
     
    Arab poetry has alway been focused on celebrating the often highly exaggerated exploits of tribal chiefs against whomever they were fighting--usually other Arabs.

    It's true Arab-Persian animosity goes back a good way, but so does practically every other permutation of inter-racial/ethnic/tribal rivalry.

    The Persians, like the Byzantines, had a rich and intricate culture and tended to have little regard for most of the Arabs they came into contact with.

    But the real basis for Arab-Persian animosity is in the Islamic era. Persians quickly became a major intellectual and literary force in Islamic thought, and from early on, Arab leaders of Islam were probably threatened by the idea that the clever Persians might take the one thing that Arabs had created--Islam--and make it more Persian than Arab.

    When Iran was converted to Twelver Shiism in the early 16th century and fought a long series of wars with Sunni Ottoman Turkey for control of Mesopotamia, Arab distrust kindled into animosity.

    "Palestinians are regarded as chopped liver by all Arabs except loser states such as Egypt and Jordan who have nothing better to do."
     
    Absolutely untrue.

    For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians, but they are conscious of their impotence against the Judeosupremacist onslaught in Palestine and are shamed into silence by it.

    When Iran-backed Hezbollah was perceived to have dealt Israel a blow in the 2006 Lebanon War, it resulted in much admiration for Hezbollah. Almost immediately afterwards however, AQI bombed the al Askari shrine in Samarra, Iraq, setting off much blood letting between Shia and Sunnis and scotching any possible rapprochement. Just goes to show how useful Sunni anti-Shia violence has been to Israeli strategy in the region.

    The ruling and clerical elites of the Sunni Arab world are another matter. They are the ones who really inherit the historical animosity to Iran, which is aggravated by the obvious modern superiority of Iranian technological culture to anything the Arabs can hope to aspire to. The general feeling is that they have no hope of saving the Palestinians but, on the other hand, Israel is not viewed by them as an expansionist threat beyond the Jordan Valley, Gaza, the Golan and Lebanon. The traditional Arab leadership fear that Persians might try to "steal" Islam from its Arab creators is now supplemented by the fear that a dynamic and technologically proficient Iranian state might seek and gain "hegemony" in the region. It's quite difficult to see how Iran could really do this even if it tried, but such is the mindset of many Sunni Arab leaders, both Islamist and secular. Muhammed Morsi was prepared to explore better relations with Iran after becoming Egypt's first elected president. But then he was overthrown. There may well be some connection there.

    “For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians”

    Oh, absolutely. They care very deeply. Just not enough to let any of them into their own countries. I mean let’s not get carried away here.

    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson

    "Oh, absolutely. They care very deeply [about the Palestinians.] Just not enough to let any of them into their own countries."

     

    Why should they assist in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? Sure, Israel would love it if the Arab countries would help make the rest of its untermenschen go away, providing Großisrael with all the Lebensraum it deserves--"from Dan to Beersheba," as they say.

    But no dice.

    Does that frustrate you?

  117. @Anonymous
    Is Saudi sand good for anything?

    “Is Saudi sand good for anything?”

    Pounding. A preoccupation we should strongly encourage them to take up.

    • Agree: JMcG
  118. I think I was a tad too acrid in comments towards a person who believes that Abdullah of Jordan and Mubarak were “stooges” for not opposing Hezbollah which is why Steve deleted them . Fair enough.
    Let me just say in milder tones that these two individuals ,corrupt and greedy as they are ,had more foresight than they are given credit for. Some Israel bashers are understandably nostalgic about 2005-2007 when the entire Muslim world practically was united against them. Of course the current day reality is just too painful for them when most Muslim countries collectively shrug while Israel exponentially increases the number of settlements in “Palestinian land”. My friend whose mother is Palestinian just returned from the territories(i.e Judea and Samaria) and notes that Palestinian birth rate is indeed collapsing. His 25 year old cousin for instance is just now pregnant while her mother already had 3 critters when she barely 23. And she has no plans for any more. Israel has completely subsumed the Palestinian economy and even culture. More Palestinians watch Israeli shows than Arabic shows and Hebrew is slowly entering the home whence before it was only a work language. Many are doing the unthinkable and even selling lands to settlers. In 2003 this would earn you an automatic death sentence . Nowadays its just “meh”. Who knows in the future they may revert to Judaism. Problem solved.
    Most Muslims across the world may do an occasional protest when an Israeli border guard shoots some random vermin but thats half hearted and easily dissipated.
    Those posters here who look at the current situation with agony while tripping over themselves praising Hezbollah are likely to mourn their hero Qassem Soleimani who was incinerated in Baghdad today. The Shia world just lost its right arm.

  119. @Ozymandias
    "Most of the maladies affecting the Middle East are due to the Sykes Picot treaty and creating nation states out of thin air with no regard to ethnic composition or geographic realities."

    Seems more like it was specifically designed to split some of those compositions up. Long ago Wokeness. Diversity will be their strength! Worked out well...

    Before the 1970s Lebanon was held as a role model for sectarian unity where Christians, Shias and Sunnis could live together in peace with the Lebanese identity and their charming and quaint mix of Francophone and Levantine cultures. That fell apart quickly when Muslims realized that they were the majority and should be running the show. The Maronites thought otherwise and cozied up to Israel. Meanwhile the Orthodox and Shias invited Syria and supported Palestine even as Syrians hated Palestinians . Mustafa Talas referred to Arafat as the son of 50000 whores. Later after the Israelis withdrew in disgrace due to the megalomania of then defense minister Ariel Sharon, the Shias and Maronites got together because…I dont care anymore. My point is this a region of shifting alliances, todays good guys and allies and tomorrows hostiles and vice versa. There is no point making sense of such countries. Syria is Lebanon on steroids. Why even bother? Ill just say this about Assad- no one was more dedicated to protecting the Christian minority in the Middle East. “secular” Mubarak let the Ikhwaan loose on the Copts while Saddam sidelined them when he included Allahu Akbar in the flag post Gulf War I to help heal wounds with other Arab states. Jordanian monarchy tolerate Palestinian Christians but dont allow them to build any new churches. Usual deal. But then Assad wasnt really Muslim but an Allawi – a renegade sect of Ismaili Islam . Allawis are as Muslim as Christians are Jewish or so the analogy goes.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    My friend whose mother is Palestinian just returned from the territories(i.e Judea and Samaria) and notes that Palestinian birth rate is indeed collapsing.
     
    All according to plan.
  120. @Dr Van Nostrand
    Before the 1970s Lebanon was held as a role model for sectarian unity where Christians, Shias and Sunnis could live together in peace with the Lebanese identity and their charming and quaint mix of Francophone and Levantine cultures. That fell apart quickly when Muslims realized that they were the majority and should be running the show. The Maronites thought otherwise and cozied up to Israel. Meanwhile the Orthodox and Shias invited Syria and supported Palestine even as Syrians hated Palestinians . Mustafa Talas referred to Arafat as the son of 50000 whores. Later after the Israelis withdrew in disgrace due to the megalomania of then defense minister Ariel Sharon, the Shias and Maronites got together because...I dont care anymore. My point is this a region of shifting alliances, todays good guys and allies and tomorrows hostiles and vice versa. There is no point making sense of such countries. Syria is Lebanon on steroids. Why even bother? Ill just say this about Assad- no one was more dedicated to protecting the Christian minority in the Middle East. "secular" Mubarak let the Ikhwaan loose on the Copts while Saddam sidelined them when he included Allahu Akbar in the flag post Gulf War I to help heal wounds with other Arab states. Jordanian monarchy tolerate Palestinian Christians but dont allow them to build any new churches. Usual deal. But then Assad wasnt really Muslim but an Allawi - a renegade sect of Ismaili Islam . Allawis are as Muslim as Christians are Jewish or so the analogy goes.

    My friend whose mother is Palestinian just returned from the territories(i.e Judea and Samaria) and notes that Palestinian birth rate is indeed collapsing.

    All according to plan.

  121. Abba Eban interviewed by Mike Wallace, 1958.

  122. @Ozymandias
    "For the mass of the population of the Sunni world, Israel would probably be number one enemy most of the time, and they do care a good deal about the Palestinians"

    Oh, absolutely. They care very deeply. Just not enough to let any of them into their own countries. I mean let's not get carried away here.

    “Oh, absolutely. They care very deeply [about the Palestinians.] Just not enough to let any of them into their own countries.”

    Why should they assist in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? Sure, Israel would love it if the Arab countries would help make the rest of its untermenschen go away, providing Großisrael with all the Lebensraum it deserves–“from Dan to Beersheba,” as they say.

    But no dice.

    Does that frustrate you?

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    Sikhs and Hindus were cleansed from Pakistan and Muslims from India in 1947 to 48. Greeks and Germans are evicted from their ancestral lands in WWI and WWII respectively. They don't whine and mewl like Palestinians but get on with their lives by being productive. There is nothing special about palestinian culture that's sets it apart from Southern Syria. Just as Greeks from Anatolia aren't all different those in from Greece. Palestinians can drop dead for all I care. And as seen their collapsing birthrate, they are doing so in slow motion. Baruch hashem hahaha

    BTW PLO is now reduced to spying on their own subjects on behalf of Israel. Does that frustrate you ?

    , @Colin Wright
    'Why should they assist in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? Sure, Israel would love it if the Arab countries would help make the rest of its untermenschen go away, providing Großisrael with all the Lebensraum it deserves–“from Dan to Beersheba,” as they say...'

    The irony is that even this wouldn't do any good.

    The Jews collected in Israel are neither a nation nor truly one people. The only way they can pretend otherwise is to arrange to endlessly have an 'enemy at the gates' against whom they can band together.

    Hence the almost monotonous aggression and oppression. If they do manage to wreck Iran, they'll just have to find another enemy, and if they ever do drive the Palestinians away, they'd follow them to wherever they went so that they'd still have an 'other' to oppress and define themselves against.

    It'll never end. It can't.
  123. @Dr Van Nostrand
    "I have no idea what this means."

    From your posts I can see you have no idea of what anything means. You are a like a time traveller from the Dark ages trying to figure out an iphone.

    Well, at least you’re writing in English this time. Maybe the key for you is to keep comments to one paragraph like this one. It’s always best to know one’s limitations.

    • Replies: @Dr Van Nostrand
    Your knowledge of geopolitical affairs reminds if Bruno's grasp of the same. I can see that you are really into issues. Keep it up.
  124. @Oscar Peterson
    Well, at least you're writing in English this time. Maybe the key for you is to keep comments to one paragraph like this one. It's always best to know one's limitations.

    Your knowledge of geopolitical affairs reminds if Bruno’s grasp of the same. I can see that you are really into issues. Keep it up.

  125. @Oscar Peterson

    "Oh, absolutely. They care very deeply [about the Palestinians.] Just not enough to let any of them into their own countries."

     

    Why should they assist in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? Sure, Israel would love it if the Arab countries would help make the rest of its untermenschen go away, providing Großisrael with all the Lebensraum it deserves--"from Dan to Beersheba," as they say.

    But no dice.

    Does that frustrate you?

    Sikhs and Hindus were cleansed from Pakistan and Muslims from India in 1947 to 48. Greeks and Germans are evicted from their ancestral lands in WWI and WWII respectively. They don’t whine and mewl like Palestinians but get on with their lives by being productive. There is nothing special about palestinian culture that’s sets it apart from Southern Syria. Just as Greeks from Anatolia aren’t all different those in from Greece. Palestinians can drop dead for all I care. And as seen their collapsing birthrate, they are doing so in slow motion. Baruch hashem hahaha

    BTW PLO is now reduced to spying on their own subjects on behalf of Israel. Does that frustrate you ?

  126. @indocon
    One thing to watch for our type of people will be the speed with which bay area and broader CA descends into chaos, as it has been mentioned elsewhere under new California law any theft thousand dollars is basically not prosecuted.

    https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/12/31/person-critically-injured-after-laptop-theft-outside-oakland-starbucks/

    This is actually a nicer part of Oakland, the victim's name has not been announced yet, but the poor guys shoes laying on the street strongly indicated that he was a white hipster.

    This is actually a nicer part of Oakland, the victim’s name has not been announced yet, but the poor guys shoes laying on the street strongly indicated that he was a white hipster.

    Indocon, turned out the victim was a Chinese engineer, who worked for IBM. The killers were of the US’s most typical variety. One of the perps sisters told the interviewing reporter her brother is a good boy; one who doesn’t deserve to be held responsible for his deeds/works. As proof she showed a picture of her young child playing with his killer uncle. The newscaster then proceeded list off priors from the killers rap sheet.

    • Replies: @danand
    Looks like it will likely be charged as manslaughter? Sister of perp interviewed:

    https://youtu.be/2XE2V5_Tfz4
  127. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    The heaviest burden on my heart and my mind is the realization of what I did in Iraq.

    Those poor fucking sand people were a bunch of simpletons in mud huts... and this big fucking 800 pound American gorilla was in their back yard and it (the gorilla... me and my 240G) thumped them when they acted out of place and we called it defensive, justified, understandable, and bloody well American. God Bless the US fucking A.

    Then I became aware of the JQ. Slowly. At some point the coincidences began to form a pattern, and it was as if every time I looked into a subject of moral and national concern, there they were with their little hats.

    Then one day I began to look into the neoconservative movement. I used to consider myself one. I thought Iraq was the right thing to do.

    Then I saw the names. Dozens of them. Movers and shakers of the political ruling class, all with a distinctive je ne sais quois.... but we do.

    I look into my son’s eyes that are nearly identical to mine, and I know one day he will feel the call of the cadence march and drum. I only hope that by that time we live in a nation we can call our own, who only lets slip the dogs of war to survive.

    All those angry little shits over there... keep the embassy. Y’all fucking suck, but it’s your patch of shit. Do as you will with it as you have for the last three thousand years.

    I used to admire Neocons too. Supported the Iraq War even though I knew WMD was BS; I still thought neocons and others were partly driven by idealism to reform the Middle East. And then, the scales began to fall off. The problem wasn’t just with ‘left-wing Jews’ as I once thought. Neocons and ‘liberal’ Jews were always working together. All this ‘democracy’ and ‘liberal’ talk is total BS. Jews will work with neo-nazis in Ukraine and Saudis & Isis in Middle East. It all comes down to “Is it superduper for Jews?” And if millions of lives are destroyed? In Jewish eyes, they are all cattle, untermensch. The rape of Russia, the anti-white smears, White Nakba, sodomy as new religion, pornification of pop culture, outrageous Russia collusion hoax, and etc. all can be mainly traced back to Jews. Jewish power has gotten vile beyond what I thought was possible.

  128. @danand

    This is actually a nicer part of Oakland, the victim’s name has not been announced yet, but the poor guys shoes laying on the street strongly indicated that he was a white hipster.
     
    Indocon, turned out the victim was a Chinese engineer, who worked for IBM. The killers were of the US’s most typical variety. One of the perps sisters told the interviewing reporter her brother is a good boy; one who doesn’t deserve to be held responsible for his deeds/works. As proof she showed a picture of her young child playing with his killer uncle. The newscaster then proceeded list off priors from the killers rap sheet.

    Looks like it will likely be charged as manslaughter? Sister of perp interviewed:

  129. @Oscar Peterson

    "Oh, absolutely. They care very deeply [about the Palestinians.] Just not enough to let any of them into their own countries."

     

    Why should they assist in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? Sure, Israel would love it if the Arab countries would help make the rest of its untermenschen go away, providing Großisrael with all the Lebensraum it deserves--"from Dan to Beersheba," as they say.

    But no dice.

    Does that frustrate you?

    ‘Why should they assist in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? Sure, Israel would love it if the Arab countries would help make the rest of its untermenschen go away, providing Großisrael with all the Lebensraum it deserves–“from Dan to Beersheba,” as they say…’

    The irony is that even this wouldn’t do any good.

    The Jews collected in Israel are neither a nation nor truly one people. The only way they can pretend otherwise is to arrange to endlessly have an ‘enemy at the gates’ against whom they can band together.

    Hence the almost monotonous aggression and oppression. If they do manage to wreck Iran, they’ll just have to find another enemy, and if they ever do drive the Palestinians away, they’d follow them to wherever they went so that they’d still have an ‘other’ to oppress and define themselves against.

    It’ll never end. It can’t.

  130. @SFG
    Come on, every year is the hottest year on record. We get two or three giant hurricanes a year when they used to come every few years.

    Just because the left is wrong on lots of stuff, doesn't mean they're wrong on everything. As Derb says, some things are true even though the Party says they are.

    Is climate change real? I’d be a fool to ignore the historical record that the climate changes.

    Anthropomorphic climate change? I need the bad and contrived “science” from the likes of Michael “Hockey Stick” Mann and his ilk to be a tad more convincing.

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