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Q. Why Is the SAT Falling Out of Favor? A. Asian Supremacy
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My best guess for why the SAT is falling out of favor, as exemplified by it getting Cancelled at the U. of California campuses, would be what you see in this 2019 graph by Unsilenced Science:

Namely, Asians have been pulling away from everybody else on the SAT college admissions test, especially since David “Common Core” Coleman got his hands on the SAT a few years back, opening an unprecedented 100 point lead over whites in the last couple of years.

But the news media practically never ever mentions this 20-year-long development in Asian average test scores pulling away from everybody else like Secretariat in the Belmont.

It just doesn’t fit into the reigning worldview. Nonetheless, I think at the level of upper middle class white parents with kids in high school, their growing awareness of Asian Supremacy is a big deal, and is a major cause of growing white disenchantment with the SAT, even though it is almost never phrased in those terms. Are the Asians genetically superior, culturally superior, or are they cheating more? Nobody knows for sure, but whites are increasingly seeing the SAT as a game they are destined to lose at to Asians.

At the University of California schools, Asian dominance of undergraduate admissions is pretty obvious. For example, here is the demographics of the #3 prestige college in the system. UC San Diego in paradisiacal La Jolla.

Asian Americans make up 37% of undergrads versus only 19% of white Americans. But another 19% are international students, most of them Asian, so Asians probably outnumber white about 2..5 to one at UC San Diego among undergrads.

Going to UC schools isn’t as super cheap anymore as when I got an MBA from UCLA and our valedictorian asked for a round of applause for the taxpayers of California for subsidizing our educations so munificently. But still …

Making college admissions more subjective seems like it would hurt white parents in Santa Monica less than it would hurt Asian parents in Arcadia, because upscale whites are cooler than upscale Asians. Santa Monica parents can invent and follow new fashions in college application “Me!” essays that are more appealing to Berkeley admissions staffers than what Arcadia parents can come up with for their kids.

Let’s see what answers the New York Times news section comes up with to these questions:

Why Is the SAT Falling Out of Favor?
The University of California will no longer use SAT and ACT scores in admissions decisions. Critics say the tests put less wealthy students at a disadvantage.

By Shawn Hubler, May 23, 2020, 5:00 a.m. ET

SACRAMENTO — The University of California’s decision this past week to stop requiring the SAT and ACT tests for admissions renewed a debate that could be a prompt on a college application: Are the tests that were first deployed to diversify the Ivy League beyond rich prep schoolers a worthwhile yardstick, or are they, as one U.S. regent put it, “a proxy for privilege”? …

At the University of California, a faculty task force found that standardized tests were a better predictor of college success than high school grades were. They also found that including the SAT and ACT in the formula for admissions helped some black, Hispanic and low-income students by offering an additional metric for those who might have been rejected based on grades.

As I pointed out in February, the University of California faculty task force found that the r2 of GPA-only forecasting models was 16% but the r2 of SAT-only forecasting models was 21%.

So why the move away from the tests?

Higher education is running out of white kids. They are looking at a hyper stratified future of Asians versus Latinos, so they are engaging in various kinds of Shoot the Messenger behavior.

Critics of the tests cite decades of data indicating that they are inherently biased in favor of affluent, white and Asian-American students. During the debate among the California regents this week, numerous speakers used the word “racist” to describe the exams.

Critics also say the tests are too easily gamed by students who can pay thousands of dollars for private coaching and test prep. Carol Christ, the chancellor of the University of California, Berkeley, has long called for a move away from standardized testing for admissions. She cited the recent college admissions bribery scandal as a case in point, calling the episode “grotesque.”

Obviously, because the Desperate Housewives actress got herself in big legal trouble for paying $15k to have a ringer take the test for her daughter, we must abolish the SAT and ACT, just like Spanish classes nationally abolished holding tests after Ted Kennedy was caught paying a ringer to take his Spanish test for him at Harvard in 1951.

Plaintiffs in a lawsuit pending against the University of California say use of the tests build on existing disparities. According to the College Board, which administers the SAT, 55 percent of Asian-American test takers and 45 percent of white test takers scored a 1200 or higher on the SAT in 2019. For Hispanic and black students, those numbers were 12 percent and 9 percent.

Proponents of a change say it is fairer to judge students by other measures, such as teacher recommendations. Some studies have suggested that high school grades better measure a student’s likelihood of graduation and cumulative performance in college.

The conventional wisdom among the well-informed was long that GPA was a better single measure than SAT, but SAT was a good complement to GPA. But the new U of C faculty task force study found SAT dominated GPA.

And some school officials say the tests are superfluous. California’s community college chancellor, Eloy Ortiz Oakley, who is also a University of California regent, reminded the board this week that the university already enrolls tens of thousands of transfer students who are not required to take any standardized admission tests.

Non-Armenian white people generally don’t know about or think about this huge back door to a UCLA degree. They assume you must go to a 4 year college for 4 years, but lots of Armenians send their kids to decent junior colleges like Pasadena, Glendale or Santa Monica for two years, then off to UCLA for the last two years for the fancy diploma.

What will happen next?
John A. Pérez, chairman of the system’s board of regents, said that college officials in other states had told him privately that they would likely follow suit if California moved to eliminate the test from its admissions requirements.

“I have talked to leaders at other public universities over the last couple of months,” Mr. Pérez said, “and would not be surprised if others looked at this question as well.” …

The end of the SAT and ACT in California’s most prestigious public universities will not necessarily mean the end of admissions testing there. University officials said they were studying the feasibility of developing their own replacement test — with less baggage.

How hard could it be to invent a valid test on which blacks and Hispanics score as well as Asians? Obviously, the reason we don’t have such a test today is because it never ever occurred to anybody until last week to try to invent one.

Everybody claims they want to deepsix the SAT because, they say, the SAT is so racistly biased toward whites and against blacks, but little has changed over the generations in that regard. What has changed over the last two decades is the emergence of Asian Supremacy. That’s a big deal even if nobody talks about it.

 
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  1. anon[715] • Disclaimer says:

    I’d think many good students headed for engineering or the hard sciences will still take one of the tests to demonstrate their credentials. I don’t know how much leaders in those disciplines can influence admissions decisions.

    But even worse for the UC future is the diversity statement roadblock for new hires that will force many top people to look elsewhere or to have to bullshit their way past the first hurdle in faculty hiring. We can only hope the coming COVID financial crisis will flush out some administrators and grievance faculty that support the DIE initiatives.

    Bill in Glendale

    • Replies: @allensheep
    @anon

    It's an interesting question with these "diversity statements". I'm a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I'm not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I'd feel some guilt over it.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Jack D, @jon, @Truth, @Hypnotoad666, @SFG, @JerseyJeffersonian, @anonymous, @Pericles

    , @Simple Simone
    @anon

    All very true, colleges should have their own entrance exams.

    For example:

    https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2019/11/total-recall-2.html


    This was even more true in Soviet times where average Soviet school graduate received three times more instruction in math, physics, chemistry and biology than it was stipulated for the entrance to MIT.
     

    [T]he bubble of gas with the diameter d has occurred at the bottom of the pond. During ascent to the surface its diameter increased n-times. Find the depth of this pond in this place. Atmospheric pressure Po, coefficient of surface tension (lower case sigma) and water's density p (rho) to be considered known. During the expansion gas temperature remains constant.
     

    A typical problem for a school graduate. Requirements for entrance to MIT you can see here. While tests for Physics you may see here--as expected from College Board. In fact, you are not even required to take Physics exam, you can take Biology instead. Wanna know what Math 1 stands for? Browse MIT site. Hell, while at it go to Math 2 also, and why not. The point? The point is that students who have to solve trigonometric equations like this by the 10th grade:
    an extremely easy equation based on basic identities and quadratic substitutions, will have very little difficulty after going though hell of physics-math-language entrance exams getting to serious calculus and differential equations, not to mention mechanics and, eventually, weapons' and industrial design.
     
    , @Anonymous
    @anon

    NO the SAT will fall out of use-favor because IT hurts JEWISH IQ...supremacy...myth...

  2. Or, it’s simply provides less complicated way to admit an adequate number of full tuition paying students and provide them with the proper kind diverse environment they that good money for.

    • Disagree: James Stark
  3. because the Desperate Housewives actress got herself in big legal trouble

    You left out Aunt Becky from Full House.

  4. Higher education is running out of white kids

    What do you mean by this? There are probably still more whites than either Asians or Latinos taken as individual groups.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @LostInTgeWoods


    For the first time, non-Hispanic white residents now make up less than half (49.9%) of the nation’s under age 15 population, newly released 2018 U.S. Census Bureau estimates show.
     
    https://www.brookings.edu/research/less-than-half-of-us-children-under-15-are-white-census-shows/

    Reflecting a demographic shift, 109 U.S. counties have become majority nonwhite since 2000
     
    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/21/u-s-counties-majority-nonwhite/

    The new statistics project that the nation will become “minority white” in 2045.
     
    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2018/03/14/the-us-will-become-minority-white-in-2045-census-projects/
    , @Gyre07
    @LostInTgeWoods

    Apparently you didn't read the article. The stats for UCSD show the student body is 37% Asian and 19% white.

    , @Justsaying
    @LostInTgeWoods

    Interesting that the disenchantment with SAT is now coming from Whites. I thought all along that that was the exclusive preserve of the purportedly genetically inferior Blacks and Latinos. Shifting the goal posts became necessary when Asians stopped reading the script and started excelling. How dare they!

    Replies: @Truth

  5. Grades are useless too, right? I saw that at /Teachers. How colleges are supposed to evaluate applicants is beyond me. Better ace that interview!

    Is the MCAT next?

    • Replies: @Rob
    @Carol

    MCAT already got nerfed. The new scoring scale is silly, from 118 to 132 for each of 4 sections, means set to 125. So the overall score is 472 to 528. The goal must be to obscure the scores for less intelligent minorities. According to Kaptest.com:


    The AAMC stresses that this scale emphasizes the importance of the central portion of the score distribution, where most students score (around 125 per section, or 500 total), rather than putting an undue focus on the high end of the scale.
     
    So they’re basically admitting that they’re providing cover for schools to admit minorities who nearly reach. The MCAT was scored for three sections, physical science, biological science, and verbal reasoning each from 1 or maybe 3 to 15. I don’t think anyone ever got a 45, but I could be wrong.

    Along with 2 essays assigned a combined letter grade. The top essay score was a T. I got a 36S, and only 2.3% did better, maybe 2% got a 36. Once you knew the material, it was basically an IQ test. I’m pretty sure the essays were intended to sniff out WrongThink. One of my essays was something like ‘when should an oppressed group be expected to advocate for themselves, and when is it appropriate for others to do so. I picked early women’s rights warriors and the civil rights movement and sounded exactly like a liberal, but an analytical one.

    New MCAT’s sections are “Biological and Biochemical Foundations of Living Systems,” Chemical and Physical Foundations of Biological Systems,” Psychological, Social, and Biological Foundations of Behavior,” and “ Critical Analysis and Reasoning Skills.” There should be biochem on the test, though if you learned organic chemistry, you’ll learn biochem fine. Hell, just about every reaction is catalyzed, so you don’t even have to decide which groups are more reactive, what temperature to run the reaction, what solvent to use...I can see foundations of behavior, but unless the word “heritability” shows up, it probably doesn’t touch on the real bases of behavior.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Unladen Swallow

    , @Charon
    @Carol

    Hardly any schools use interviews nowadays--too labor-intensive, not to mention subjective. Those that do declare specifically that they are informational for the student and not intended as admissions tests. There are a few exceptions, mostly specialty programs.

    From the article:


    Proponents of a change say it is fairer to judge students by other measures, such as teacher recommendations.
     
    Offhand it's hard to think of a metric which might be less fair than teacher recommendations. Maybe skin color?

    Replies: @Alden

    , @Chunkachunk
    @Carol

    It’s already hit medicine. Not the MCAT but the first round of medical board exams that determines which specialty you will be: neurosurgeon or family medicine, etc. Also if you will be at Mt Sinai in NYC or trucking it in rural North Dakota between hospitals hundreds of miles apart.

    The US Medical Licensing Exam (USMLE) decided to switch to pass/fail for probably similar reasons.

    There was a feeling that people were studying for the exam and rote memorization which would lead to good test takers but doctors unprepared for a future that requires more creativity and innovation. And board prep companies making a racket off this, undermining the medical schools themselves.

    More explosive is the racial side. While racial disparities can be controlled to a certain extant by medical school interviews and affirmative action at the hospital residency level, it would be impossible to defend in the face clear statistical evidence of disparities in medical knowledge via the board exam. The lawyers could find out if the diversity doc just barely passed or aced boards, unless it was P/F. The fact that international schools filled with Asians could take the exam and embarrass the admission board selected American med school graduates undercut the argument that med schools select for medical talent and knowledge. P/F makes it easier to ignore low prestige and international medical school graduates by their grades being merely Pass, and not a significant deviation above the politically connected Harvard Med school grad who also now just gets a Pass.

    Pass -Fail is the new trend in medicine that allows for claiming a token of merit but all the political advantages and corruption that cannot develop a resolved picture of merit by knowledge, but only via the subjective assessments of senior physicians, administrators, and the powers that be.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @cthulhu
    @Carol


    How colleges are supposed to evaluate applicants is beyond me. Better ace that interview!
     
    My high school senior year, I killed the ACT and did well but not commensurately spectacular on the SAT (small, very rural school in a small, rural state; nearest SAT testing location was 1.5 hrs away; in the last five years, only three seniors at my high school had bothered to take the SAT; I took it because I was a National Merit semi-finalist). I had straight-A’s and was class salutatorian, but again, small, very rural, not academically well known high school.

    However, due to a combination of grades and test scores, I ended up in the finalist pool of about two dozen for the state university’s top scholarship program; ten awarded each year (freshman class averaged about 8000 per year, total undergraduate enrollment about 25k). They interviewed me, I didn’t get it but I did easily get the second tier, still a four-year scholarship but substantially less $. One of the freshman year obligations for these two scholarships was to attend a high school recruiting event. On the hour-long bus ride, I ended up sitting next to one of my scholarship interviewers, a long-time administrator at the university; he remembered me and chatted very openly with me. He told me that this had been the first year they added the interview component to the top-tier scholarship, and had selected about half the recipients more on the interview results than test scores, GPA, and class standing; he said he had argued for me but I wasn’t at the top of the interview results. It turned out (he said) that every one of the scholarship recipients whose interview tipped the balance were in academic trouble and in danger of being stripped of their scholarship (at the end of the freshman year, out of the ten, three ended up losing the scholarship). This was much worse than any of the previous years, and they de-emphasized the interview the next few years at least.

    Me? I graduated summa cum laude with an engineering degree and have been very successful ever since. I averaged 17-18 hrs per semester and never had a semester GPA less than 3.75. Interviews are overrated...

  6. Maybe do like Texas, the top 10 in every class get to go to the public university of their choice?

    • Replies: @Charon
    @Redneck farmer

    Top 10% you mean? Given the wild variations in high school quality, that's a way to produce a lot of mismatches in the student body as well as a way to drive off the best students.

    So yeah, sounds like a plan. Popular anyway.

    Replies: @Alice

    , @FPD72
    @Redneck farmer

    At UT-Austin, only the top 7% are automatically accepted. I think the other schools all accept the top 10%, although I’m not sure about A&M or UT-Dallas. The top 10% law was passed in response to the Hopwood decision, which ruled that UT had discriminated against a white applicant on the basis of race. As long as Texas high schools are racially de facto segregated, this will insure that a good number of black and Hispanic students will get accepted.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  7. I agree with the hypothesis that Asians mature faster in terms of intelligence and have a higher comparative IQ at the high school level, but it evens out and then they fall behind whites later on in life. They are also far less creative on average, which may not matter as much for an SAT test, but matters a whole lot throughout your career.

    Anyway, the SAT will likely not go away but what will happen is that colleges will start to take more into account things like “personality”, “extracurriculars”, “leadership potential”, etc. as a way of preventing a campus full of Changs and Lings who do nothing but study and then don’t donate anything.

    What may also happen is that Asians effectively take over the current top schools, but later on the schools that are majority-white become the de facto unspoken top schools that most companies would prefer to hire from as the long-term results of majority-white vs majority-Asian staff become evident. This is part of the ultimate fate of any mixing of ethnicities in one territory: balkanization by race. Whites will have their own neighbourhoods, high schools, colleges, and companies. So will Asians, Indians. Jews will move in between and attempt to control all. Blacks and Latinos (except white Latinos who will merge into White) will be forever proles.

    • Disagree: Mary Marianne
    • Replies: @education realist
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    Yeah, I think this is not unlikely BUT the rich and connected will be the folks who get into the top schools.

    But if the state Unis in Iowa, Idaho, Georgia, Dakotas, all the central states, guaranteed admission to SAT 600 X2 and up, and make a big deal about it, that would help.

    Replies: @anon

    , @Senzo
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    "They are also far less creative on average,"

    Pfff - cope.

    Replies: @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    , @Anonymous
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium


    Anyway, the SAT will likely not go away but what will happen is that colleges will start to take more into account things like “personality”, “extracurriculars”, “leadership potential”, etc. as a way of preventing a campus full of Changs and Lings who do nothing but study and then don’t donate anything.
     
    Chinese donate a lot to US universities. That's why universities have been recruiting Chinese students. Not just because they often pay full tuition, but because they donate a lot:

    https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iWNZgFNNy.8A/v0/-1x-1.png

    https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iDCpUYG23JnY/v0/-1x-1.png

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Biff
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium


    but it evens out and then they fall behind whites later on in life. They are also far less creative on average, which may not matter as much for an SAT test, but matters a whole lot throughout your career.
     
    Could you quantify this? Or is it just an opinion to help yourself feel better?
    , @Derek Jeter
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    The IQ differences are all bullshit. ALL races are the same on average. Lot of white folks here are fetishizing Asians because it's a PC-way to express their hatred towards blacks. These whites do not speak for Asians. I highly doubt there are any Asians here on Unz. The Asians I've met don't go around bragging about high IQs and ethnic supremacy. They are just out there to advance their career and couldn't care less about demonstrating their high IQs. It's just whites who use the Asian IQ scores to do circuitous, sidelong attacks against blacks and Hispanics.

    Fact of the matter is: the supposed IQ differences are all BS. The whole test is a load of baloney. Just an ideological tool and construct. As far as SAT scores go, if you study all day, including doing after-school programs until 9 p.m. like many Asians are forced to do, believe it or not, but you will get a high SAT score too.

    IQ supremacy in itelf is gay af. In Asian countries, people don't look down on low IQ countrymen.
    How many girls actually are into "high IQ" guys (and I know it's not mutually exclusive with other abilities)? People boasting of "high IQ" usually are deficient in other areas of life (social skills, charisma, athleticism, etc.), and they cling to the IQ stuff because it protects their fragile egos. High IQ types are autistic weirdos with no social skills. A decent amount of smarts is good, but beyond that, it's a diminishing returns kind of thing.

    Replies: @jack daniels, @reezy, @Dino, @Duke84

    , @in the middle
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    white Latinos.

    As opposed to white what? Back in the 1600s when Europeans were 'whites', they migrated to all parts of the world. Whosoever came up with 'white latinos', should came up with 'central european whites', 'western european whites', 'african whites', etc. Ever since the US was colonized, and people from all over settled there, there was lots of different tribes, and guess what, the southwest was already peopled by,..Mexicans, where were considered white, until the 60s and 70s, when the term 'hispanics' was invented.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Chinaman
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium


    Asians mature faster
     
    Haven’t heard this one before. I think it is the other way round. Whites and black learn to walk and reach puberty faster. I guess all that growth is happening around the groin and not enough up top.

    Asians never complains about the size of their dicks and is at peace with it, may be whites shouldn't be so self conscious about their small brains ( I think 100cc difference in brain size )

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Derek Jeter, @Derek Jeter, @Fred C Dobbs, @Poco

    , @Jeremygg5
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    How do you quantify that the asians are less creative than the whites, when China had just overtaken US as the largest international patent applicant in 2019, and that 20% of US patent holders are ethnic Chinese?

    Replies: @128

  8. Anonymous[369] • Disclaimer says:

    Obviously, because the Desperate Housewives actress got herself in big legal trouble for paying $15k to have a ringer take the test for her daughter

    The daughter has to settle for Carnegie-Mellon, where she’ll be matriculating this fall.

    https://dailycaller.com/2020/04/28/felicity-huffman-college-admissions-sophia-macy-carnegie-mellon/

    Felicity Huffman’s Daughter Gets Into Carnegie Mellon On Her Own SAT Scores Following Admissions Scandal

    Actress Felicity Huffman’s daughter has gained admission into a top tier college following the college admissions scandal.

    Sophia Macy has seemingly been admitted to Carnegie Mellon University, according to a report published by People magazine. Macy will be attending the theater program at the university starting in the fall.

    I guess it’s not Point Park University in ‘The Burgh’ (where Dennis Miller went) but it’ll do.

    • Replies: @SaneClownPosse
    @Anonymous

    All that fuss and she's majoring in Theater? She's going to be in Hollywood or Broadway anyway, it's in her genealogy.

  9. According to the College Board, which administers the SAT, 55 percent of Asian-American test takers and 45 percent of white test takers scored a 1200 or higher on the SAT in 2019. For Hispanic and black students, those numbers were 12 percent and 9 percent.

    And that’s all you need to know…..

    Critics also say the tests are too easily gamed by students who can pay thousands of dollars for private coaching and test prep.

    Kinda seems to me that that would also be a factor in terms of using GPA as the metric….

    Carol Christ, the chancellor of the University of California, Berkeley, has long called for a move away from standardized testing for admissions. She cited the recent college admissions bribery scandal as a case in point, calling the episode “grotesque.”

    They also faked athletic achievements….Maybe we should stop using that as a factor in admissions, particularly where girls are concerned….

    Proponents of a change say it is fairer to judge students by other measures, such as teacher recommendations.

    That seems a tad subjective….of course, that’s probably the point. Objective metrics tend to be racially biased…

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @syonredux

    Kinda seems to me that that would also be a factor in terms of using GPA as the metric….

    GPA is being gamed by so-called Advanced Placement courses. They give the students one grade point higher than the normal classes so we have kids with GPAs higher than 4.00. Many schools with a lot of Asians provide them but many other schools do not.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alice

    , @Old Palo Altan
    @syonredux

    "Thousands of dollars for private coaching and test prep"?

    In my day we didn't even know the day the test would be administered.

    "SAT today, boys" and that was that.

    Replies: @anon

  10. Anonymous[867] • Disclaimer says:

    What evidence is there for how Jewish scores would plot on the graph in OP? Would the line be above or below the Asian one and similarly in decline as the others? I would be surprised if it would top the huge 100-point Asian lead, and yet American Jewish achievement per capita has been historically astronomical

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Anonymous

    Insofar as it was real, they (generally) have not only more creativity than Asians but also a kind of extra para-creativity bonus from being both within and without this society; that is, they see things being fungible which others take for granted. And of course some of that achievement was just clannishness such as the Indians have been able to establish and exceed.

    Replies: @DigDoug

    , @128
    @Anonymous

    How many East Asian engineers are working for BMW, Audi, Porsche, or Ferrari? F1 is the pinnacle of motor sports and I do not recall seeing many East Asians among the technical personnel.

    Replies: @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Anonymous

    I don't know whether this applies to the topic, yet: I've read years ago interview of eminent literary critic & scholar, Harold Bloom of Yale (himself Jewish). He claimed that while Jews had excelled when he was a student, during the 1950s or so, now they're mostly mediocre because they adopted hedonistic & anti-intellectual culture of the majority. He said his best students were Asian.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Marshal Marlow

  11. The thing is, the UC system has been trying to manipulate the SAT for years to make the test less g-dependent. That did two things, at different times.

    First, by removing all the vocabulary (first antonyms, then analogies,) and the quantitative comparisons and other g-loaded math questions that weren’t necessarily advanced, but were difficult.

    Then, by *increasing* the years of math needed to do well on the test.

    So an easier verbal section and a math section that rewards swotting, not brains.

    Couple that with something that Americans, regardless of race, really can’t comprehend, which is the hours and hours and hours and hours that otherwise ordinary immigrant Asian kids put into the SAT.

    UC spent 15 years thinking it was a black/white world, and now they have too many Asians.

    I mean, leave aside cheating, which seems to be rampant overseas and, given the shocking ease that random rich folks had in bringing in proxies into the testing room, it may be here as well.

    But I don’t think that they’ll be able to stay the “No test” course and as you point out, Steve, they’re already saying they’ll develop their own test, which will have all the same issues.

    Not sure where it goes from here, except I can’t seriously see the top UCs maintaining their ranking if all become UC Riverside.

    I’ve seen some mention of them using the CA state test, the SBAC. That only has four scores. But even 4 scores creates a huge achievement gap.

    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @education realist

    When I went to college back in the antedeluvian they had a test that if you didn't pass it you had to take remedial courses. Also they gave people F's and kicked people out of school if they didn't get a minimum 1.90 gpa or something like that. I had a friend who flunked out. He liked to smoke weed and when he was stoned he did not like to study. I had another friend who flunked out because he spent too much time romancing his girlfriend and not enough time studying.

    As long as they flunk people out who don't do the work the university will do fine. Apparently professors today have to talk to parents lobbying for their children's marks. Back in the antedeluvian we never heard of a parent talking to a professor about a kid's mark. Ever. I can't imagine having a PTA meeting with the parent of somebody who is old enough to go to war.

    Replies: @anon

    , @Some Guy
    @education realist

    If changes to the SAT caused the Asian rise then you would expect it to jump right after the changes, not steadily rise year over year.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Gimeiyo
    @education realist



    Couple that with something that Americans, regardless of race, really can’t comprehend, which is the hours and hours and hours and hours that otherwise ordinary immigrant Asian kids put into the SAT.
     
    I think you're confusing cram school with SAT prep. Cram school isn't exclusively focused on SAT prep -- it's also just about racking up good grades at school in general by getting ahead of the curriculum. If university admissions were based 100% on test scores, yeah, it probably would be pretty much test focused. But the people who run these things aren't stupid -- they know grades factor in too.

    As a result, although Asian American schoolchildren do some test prep, they don't need as much test-specific prep. Blacks/Hispanics apparently do more than Whites/Asians.

    http://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/salon/files/2011/11/Racial_differences_SFJ_89_2_Alon-final.pdf

    Back when vocabulary was a big part of the test (i.e. when I was young) I think English vocab was the biggest focus of Asian test prep, since a lot of Asians grow up in households where the parents spoke more limited/less fluent English. Probably less of an issue now, though, since more Asians are second or third generation and the test itself deemphasizes vocabulary.

    Replies: @education realist

    , @Bumpkin
    @education realist


    Not sure where it goes from here
     
    Oh, that's simple, the complete destruction of academia. It could have been done decades ago, but internet entrepreneurs are fairly stupid, so they're only getting around to it now. Now that all the travel agents, TV executives, and taxi dispatchers have been replaced by software, academics are next.
    , @Happy tapir
    @education realist

    This is interesting. They also “recentered” the sat mean in 1995, which had the effect of compressing the top 200 points of scores, 1400-1600. High iq societies stopped accepting the sat at that time. In the book Affirmative Action Hoax, Farron makes a very detailed argument that this action was clearly aimed at lessening the gap between whites and blacks. I highly recommend this book to Sailer and his readers. The section on the usmle, the medical licensure exam, is the most shocking. I have heard they were planning to dumb that test down again because certain students were having trouble passing. Hmm, given that 99.5% of whites pass in three tries, I wonder who they could be referring to!?

    I would be interested to know the dates on which the various actions to prevent g loading occurred.

    Replies: @Truth

  12. With or without a particular test, the Asians will still take what societal commanding heights are left to them after the diversity mafia and the purple gang protect their turf.
    Remind me, how do these paper geniuses feel about speechfreedom, the Second Amendment, and not demonizing white people?

    • Agree: Old and Grumpy
    • Replies: @in the middle
    @J.Ross

    Its is crazy how the US is so divided between races!. So divided. I personally don't like Asians that much. Can't care less if some one calls me names. Now a day, people are scared of what others say. I told my neighbor, I had it with been scared about people calling me racist. If you don't like some people, hey, let it be. I don't like some people's behavior don't care what their color or race is. A talmudist called me anti-Semite and I did ask 'what is a Semite?" He did not know, so that was it.

  13. Lot says:

    NE Asian-American competition is not a big deal for whites. First, there aren’t enough of them to be a factor in most selective colleges. Only in maybe the 10% most asian areas (coastal CA and NYC) and 2% most selective schools are they really taking up a lot of slots. And even then, the Asian share is often held back by race norming their scores downward.

    The foreign asians when they become too numerous have a mildly negative impact on campus life. Their English isn’t very good so you have the non-STEM intro level classes dumbed down to accommodate them for example. They also fill up shared dorm fridges with stinky dishes from home.

    Heavily offsetting this however is the fact they pay full tuition so subsidize everyone else.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Lot

    Asians are kind of a big, big deal in the U. of California, such as being 36% of undergrads at Berkeley to only 24% white.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Anonymous
    @Lot

    Oriental grinds take up med and elite STEM grad slots and leave us with technically competent but don’t-think-out-of-the-box doctors and researchers. And their communications skills are mediocre. The real answer is more slots but the AMA is entrenched by cuckpublican state legislators. We would be better off to federalize the accreditation because the doctor union would lose power against other pressure groups.

    Replies: @anon

    , @ATBOTL
    @Lot


    Don't worry about the Asians taking over your country, it's no big deal, goy.
     
    Anyone else notice that Lot and the other neocons here are always giving bad faith advice to white people?
  14. Anon[226] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m not sure about how the mechanics of the Sailer theory work, because the public face of the anti-SAT movement is clearly the woke, not white middle class parents. Is the idea that there is a silent majority of white people who tacitly agree to not protest this particular woke jihad?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Anon

    White people are not allowed to talk about this stuff openly but they can vote with their choice of schools and school policy; also some Jews can act as "white people who are allowed to speak," as was displayed in New York City recently when their ostensibly good schools were held hostage by a mariachi pagliacci.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @black sea

    , @Alice
    @Anon

    There aren't any white middle class kids who can afford to go to the UC anymore anyway, and they certainly can't afford SAT prep. the white kids going were kids of Woke Karens.

    Cost to go to Cal for 1 year: $40k in-state
    https://admissions.berkeley.edu/cost

    Estimated Student Budget 2019-2020
    CA RESIDENT NONRESIDENT*
    Tuition and Fees $14,254 $14,254
    Nonresident supplemental tuition - $29,754
    Student Health Insurance Plan** $3,286 $3,286
    *Room and board $17,220 $17,220
    Food $1,644 $1,644
    Books and supplies $870 $870
    Personal $1,876 $1,876
    Transportation $400 $400
    TOTAL $39,550 $69,304
    *Calculated based on students living in the residence halls.


    That's right, it's 2k a month to live in Unit 2. living in Berkeley is not cheaper.

    UC San Diego: $25k a year if you live at home

    Cost of Attendance Living with Parents On Campus Off Campus
    CA Resident Tuition/Feesa, d, e (View Components) $14,451 $14,451 $14,451
    Housing and Meals $6,579 $14,295 $13,614
    Books and Supplies $1,128 $1,128 $1,128
    Transportation $1,506 $534 $1,104
    Personal Expenses $1,647 $1,479 $1,590
    Estimated CA Resident Cost Totalsb $25,311 $31,887 $31,887

    Replies: @Anon, @Hibernian, @RAZ, @Pericles, @Anonymous

    , @in the middle
    @Anon

    white Latinos.

    As opposed to white what? Back in the 1600s when Europeans were 'whites', they migrated to all parts of the world. Whosoever came up with 'white latinos', should came up with 'central european whites', 'western european whites', 'african whites', etc. Ever since the US was colonized, and people from all over settled there, there was lots of different tribes, and guess what, the southwest was already peopled by,..Mexicans, where were considered white, until the 60s and 70s, when the term 'hispanics' was invented.

  15. “ Asians have been pulling away from everybody else on the SAT college admissions test, especially since David Coleman got his hands on the SAT, opening an unprecedented 100 point lead over whites in the last couple of years.”

    What did Mr. (((Coleman))) do to give Asians an edge?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Ian Smith

    Coleman revamped the SAT a few years ago, which caused both white and Asian scores to plunge, but Asians immediately regroups and continued onward and upward to new highs.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @JerseyJeffersonian, @Alice in Wonderland, @James N. Kennett, @Happy tapir

  16. @LostInTgeWoods
    Higher education is running out of white kids

    What do you mean by this? There are probably still more whites than either Asians or Latinos taken as individual groups.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Gyre07, @Justsaying

    For the first time, non-Hispanic white residents now make up less than half (49.9%) of the nation’s under age 15 population, newly released 2018 U.S. Census Bureau estimates show.

    https://www.brookings.edu/research/less-than-half-of-us-children-under-15-are-white-census-shows/

    Reflecting a demographic shift, 109 U.S. counties have become majority nonwhite since 2000

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/21/u-s-counties-majority-nonwhite/

    The new statistics project that the nation will become “minority white” in 2045.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2018/03/14/the-us-will-become-minority-white-in-2045-census-projects/

  17. @TheMassageIsTheMedium
    I agree with the hypothesis that Asians mature faster in terms of intelligence and have a higher comparative IQ at the high school level, but it evens out and then they fall behind whites later on in life. They are also far less creative on average, which may not matter as much for an SAT test, but matters a whole lot throughout your career.

    Anyway, the SAT will likely not go away but what will happen is that colleges will start to take more into account things like "personality", "extracurriculars", "leadership potential", etc. as a way of preventing a campus full of Changs and Lings who do nothing but study and then don't donate anything.

    What may also happen is that Asians effectively take over the current top schools, but later on the schools that are majority-white become the de facto unspoken top schools that most companies would prefer to hire from as the long-term results of majority-white vs majority-Asian staff become evident. This is part of the ultimate fate of any mixing of ethnicities in one territory: balkanization by race. Whites will have their own neighbourhoods, high schools, colleges, and companies. So will Asians, Indians. Jews will move in between and attempt to control all. Blacks and Latinos (except white Latinos who will merge into White) will be forever proles.

    Replies: @education realist, @Senzo, @Anonymous, @Biff, @Derek Jeter, @in the middle, @Chinaman, @Jeremygg5

    Yeah, I think this is not unlikely BUT the rich and connected will be the folks who get into the top schools.

    But if the state Unis in Iowa, Idaho, Georgia, Dakotas, all the central states, guaranteed admission to SAT 600 X2 and up, and make a big deal about it, that would help.

    • Replies: @anon
    @education realist


    Unis in Iowa, Idaho, Georgia, Dakotas, all the central states
     
    They have all been 100% white & American for nearly a Century. How well known have they become compared to the coastal Unis?

    Replies: @Lagertha, @anon, @Twinkie

  18. @TheMassageIsTheMedium
    I agree with the hypothesis that Asians mature faster in terms of intelligence and have a higher comparative IQ at the high school level, but it evens out and then they fall behind whites later on in life. They are also far less creative on average, which may not matter as much for an SAT test, but matters a whole lot throughout your career.

    Anyway, the SAT will likely not go away but what will happen is that colleges will start to take more into account things like "personality", "extracurriculars", "leadership potential", etc. as a way of preventing a campus full of Changs and Lings who do nothing but study and then don't donate anything.

    What may also happen is that Asians effectively take over the current top schools, but later on the schools that are majority-white become the de facto unspoken top schools that most companies would prefer to hire from as the long-term results of majority-white vs majority-Asian staff become evident. This is part of the ultimate fate of any mixing of ethnicities in one territory: balkanization by race. Whites will have their own neighbourhoods, high schools, colleges, and companies. So will Asians, Indians. Jews will move in between and attempt to control all. Blacks and Latinos (except white Latinos who will merge into White) will be forever proles.

    Replies: @education realist, @Senzo, @Anonymous, @Biff, @Derek Jeter, @in the middle, @Chinaman, @Jeremygg5

    “They are also far less creative on average,”

    Pfff – cope.

    • Replies: @TheMassageIsTheMedium
    @Senzo

    Look at their societies vs ours. The last 3000 years of history. The art they've created. The technology. The political and social systems. It's not a cope, it's a fact. They are still the ones wanting to move here, not vice versa.

    Replies: @Wilkey

  19. GPA kind of works in the UK because the High School exams are set by a central body so you are comparing apples with apples but even then for medicine and a few other courses you need to take an aptitude test

  20. @Ian Smith
    “ Asians have been pulling away from everybody else on the SAT college admissions test, especially since David Coleman got his hands on the SAT, opening an unprecedented 100 point lead over whites in the last couple of years.”

    What did Mr. (((Coleman))) do to give Asians an edge?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Coleman revamped the SAT a few years ago, which caused both white and Asian scores to plunge, but Asians immediately regroups and continued onward and upward to new highs.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Steve Sailer

    Is that what that big dip is circa 2017? It looks like The Late Obama Age Collapse: SAT Edition.

    , @JerseyJeffersonian
    @Steve Sailer

    Wow, so he contrived to shiv two groups competitive to The Tribe, but at least one of these groups, the one rapidly increasing in numbers, figured out how to compensate.

    Whoo boy. Whither minoritarianism (in its originally-intended form as guaranteeing the primacy of The Tribe in a minoritarian nation), if your advocacy for well nigh unlimited immigration as a way to attack the white gentile majority winds up backfiring?

    Bad when the pets start ruling the roost.

    , @Alice in Wonderland
    @Steve Sailer

    here's my take on the sudden, severe dip in Asian scores on the new test. You can tell me where I go wrong.

    The lowest point of the dip is the real Asian average score because real test prep wasn't available for that test.

    What do I mean my by real test prep? That is test prep based on the actual questions on the real test. Test prep companies have people go take the real test and come back with the real test items. There are released tests but those items are not on the tests students take later. Also, test items must appear on later versions because some items are not scored because they appear so they can be tested for reliability and validity and then used on later versions. Tutors who have seen the real test have those items and use them to prepare students. It is much easier to get items right when you have already seen them and have seen the correct answers.

    Okay, where am I wrong?

    , @James N. Kennett
    @Steve Sailer


    Coleman revamped the SAT a few years ago, which caused both white and Asian scores to plunge, but Asians immediately regroups and continued onward and upward to new highs.
     
    That revamp also seems to have reduced the male/female achievement gap.
    , @Happy tapir
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve, how was the test revamped? What were the effects?

  21. Asian superiority? not in my high-IQ industry.

  22. The SAT rewards practice. By far the best “study” method is taking sample exams. Most students who do NOT practice a lot will gain 60-70 points the second time they take the SAT and another 30-40 the third time. The correct method is to take a few tests UNTIMED first, making absolutely sure you give yourself every possible chance to struggle with a problem before giving up, to find out what you don’t know.

    Then, timed versions where you do the best you can in the allotted time and then see how much more you can improve with more time on a separate answer sheet, checking over your work carefully for errors and misunderstandings. Finally, speed drills.

    There are 3 requirements to score well and you MUST master them in that order:
    1. Knowledge
    2. Accuracy
    3. Speed

    • Replies: @Charon
    @Polymath


    Most students who do NOT practice a lot will gain 60-70 points the second time they take the SAT
     
    Fascinating. That's exactly what happened in my case. I didn't practice and my second score was adequate to purpose so I left it there.

    We had a few students who took preparatory courses but I considered them grinds. But this was decades ago and we didn't think that the college you attended was going to make or break your life.

    Frankly I still don't, so long as you attend a respectable college undergrad and use the opportunity to leapfrog to a top-flight university for your graduate/professional degree.

    , @Jack D
    @Polymath

    The SAT is primarily an intelligence test - intelligent people also tend to be knowledgeable. People who are highly intelligent are also said to be "quick" - they process problems and come up with answers faster than people who are "slow". For the Math SAT there are various shortcut methods that you can memorize to allow you to arrive at the correct answer faster. If you are going to sit there and methodically set up equations and solve for x you are not going to get thru all the problems, especially if you are kind of "slow" to begin with. So knowledge and speed are two sides of the same coin.

    Accuracy is really the hardest one. Both of my kids (and I) scored in the high 700s but not 800 because we would always make at least 1 or 2 dumb mistakes. As a practical matter this makes no difference - if MIT likes your app with a 780, they are not going to like you any better with an 800. They know full well that the difference between 780 and 800 is 1 incorrect answer. If they don't like your app, then an 800 is not going to change their mind. They put a huge # of 1600 SAT applications in their reject pile.

  23. @Lot
    NE Asian-American competition is not a big deal for whites. First, there aren’t enough of them to be a factor in most selective colleges. Only in maybe the 10% most asian areas (coastal CA and NYC) and 2% most selective schools are they really taking up a lot of slots. And even then, the Asian share is often held back by race norming their scores downward.

    The foreign asians when they become too numerous have a mildly negative impact on campus life. Their English isn’t very good so you have the non-STEM intro level classes dumbed down to accommodate them for example. They also fill up shared dorm fridges with stinky dishes from home.

    Heavily offsetting this however is the fact they pay full tuition so subsidize everyone else.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @ATBOTL

    Asians are kind of a big, big deal in the U. of California, such as being 36% of undergrads at Berkeley to only 24% white.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    I don't know Steve - I've always been skeptical of people on the right (i.e. you and Murray) who use Asians as a justification for the elimination of Affirmative Action and as a hammer to bash NAMs. I mean - yes if we decided to let 1,000,000 Asians into the U.S. every year instead of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans/Guatamelans/etc wouldn't every university system in the U.S. look like California's. High average SAT scores, lots of STEM grads. However, seeing how this little Coronavirus thing has played out (Depression level unemployment levels, negative GDP growth) is this what "we" really want - an Asian socialized elite. Is that what you, Murray and Derbyshire are still trying to sell?

    Replies: @education realist, @Anonymous

  24. @Anonymous
    What evidence is there for how Jewish scores would plot on the graph in OP? Would the line be above or below the Asian one and similarly in decline as the others? I would be surprised if it would top the huge 100-point Asian lead, and yet American Jewish achievement per capita has been historically astronomical

    Replies: @J.Ross, @128, @Bardon Kaldian

    Insofar as it was real, they (generally) have not only more creativity than Asians but also a kind of extra para-creativity bonus from being both within and without this society; that is, they see things being fungible which others take for granted. And of course some of that achievement was just clannishness such as the Indians have been able to establish and exceed.

    • Replies: @DigDoug
    @J.Ross

    More creativity than Asians? Sure, there are a lot of elite Jewish scientists, many of them Nobelists. But Asia quickly picked up the pace from the post-war era on. One of the most celebrated Jewish scientists, Richard Feynman, was awarded the Nobel with another Jewish physicist, Julian Schwinger, but also a Japanese - who didn't have the educational pedigree or resources that those other two had (Caltech and Columbia). Yet he developed a theory of Quantum Electrodynamics equivalent to Feynman's and Schwingers in isolation, while Tokyo was undergoing bombing raids.

    Also, if you take out expat foreign scientists in the US who won Nobels, Japan has won Nobels at an equal rate to the U.S. since 2000. For the last 25 yrs, this rate has been higher than traditional powerhouses Germany and France.

    But I think invention is more indicative. And in this, China takes the cake, according to Felipe Fernandez Armesto, who studies civilizations. He says that the Chinese have been the most inventive people in history. Evidence? Much of the stuff that our modern society is based on: paper, paper money, printing, movable type, the compass, gunpowder, rockets, guns, crossbow, repeating crossbow, cast iron, blast furnace, the modern steelmaking process (a Yale professor around 1900 said that Bessemer actually got his idea from Chinese workers in his employ, and other researchers said that the Japanese had used this process - and that they'd gotten it from the Chinese), mechanical clock, seismograph, porcelain, chain pump, trip hammer, rudder, bulkheads, and my favorite, soccer (even the FIFA website confirms this).

    Do I think they're MORE creative than Jews? No. But there's little evidence that they're any less. As far as Asians here in the US, they do focus on medicine and law as that is what their (social climbing) parents push them into. But what few Asian American scientists there are have been at the forefront. Qian Xuesun was called a 'veritable genius' by Caltech rocket scientist Theodore Karman. An Wang invented computer memory, then created one of the first personal computer companies. And the University of California's own former chancellor, Chang-lin Tien, invented the heat-resistant technology that made reusable spacecraft like the Shuttle possible. And don't forget Obama's Sec of Energy, Nobelist Steve Chu, who on the fly designed the device that shut down the leaks from Deepwater Horizon.

    Replies: @Derek Jeter, @Derek Jeter

  25. @Steve Sailer
    @Ian Smith

    Coleman revamped the SAT a few years ago, which caused both white and Asian scores to plunge, but Asians immediately regroups and continued onward and upward to new highs.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @JerseyJeffersonian, @Alice in Wonderland, @James N. Kennett, @Happy tapir

    Is that what that big dip is circa 2017? It looks like The Late Obama Age Collapse: SAT Edition.

  26. @Steve Sailer
    @Ian Smith

    Coleman revamped the SAT a few years ago, which caused both white and Asian scores to plunge, but Asians immediately regroups and continued onward and upward to new highs.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @JerseyJeffersonian, @Alice in Wonderland, @James N. Kennett, @Happy tapir

    Wow, so he contrived to shiv two groups competitive to The Tribe, but at least one of these groups, the one rapidly increasing in numbers, figured out how to compensate.

    Whoo boy. Whither minoritarianism (in its originally-intended form as guaranteeing the primacy of The Tribe in a minoritarian nation), if your advocacy for well nigh unlimited immigration as a way to attack the white gentile majority winds up backfiring?

    Bad when the pets start ruling the roost.

  27. @Anon
    I'm not sure about how the mechanics of the Sailer theory work, because the public face of the anti-SAT movement is clearly the woke, not white middle class parents. Is the idea that there is a silent majority of white people who tacitly agree to not protest this particular woke jihad?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Alice, @in the middle

    White people are not allowed to talk about this stuff openly but they can vote with their choice of schools and school policy; also some Jews can act as “white people who are allowed to speak,” as was displayed in New York City recently when their ostensibly good schools were held hostage by a mariachi pagliacci.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @J.Ross


    a mariachi pagliacci.
     
    Were George and Władziu Liberace kolache Pagliaccis?


    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WbGjgpJpOzc/UfjztetHHtI/AAAAAAAAHaQ/aL2DAThCGuY/s320/getimage.mmexe.jpg


    (Yes. I know it's kołaczki in Polish. But it rhymes in English.)

    , @black sea
    @J.Ross


    “white people who are allowed to speak,”
     
    This is a great line, by the way.
  28. You’ve always missed something vital on this question, Steve. I think we all have.

    I was a 1600-scoring Jew in the early ’90s and still, probably because my extracurriculars weren’t ruling-class-coded enough—I was, vulgarly, a professional rock musician by the time I applied for college—I needed a world-famous friend of my father’s, an alumnus who’d won three Pulitzers, to vouch for me so I’d be allowed into Cornell. At 16-fucking-hundred, imputed IQ 168, I was a special, exceptional, ethno-/nepoto-favoritism “admit.”

    American Asians aren’t beating us on only test scores. They’re winning on other, more important, publicly unspoken criteria, too. I don’t know which. Is playing violin instead of guitar really worth so much? Maybe. Maybe because that’s what Jews used to do, and Asians imitate previous generations of us, and that’s who decides.

    ?

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Hemid

    I think you may have gotten unlucky or written particularly unappealing essays or SOMETHING.
    1600 in the early 90s was a pretty big deal though they were never a guarantee for any particular top school.

    Did you apply to other top schools as well?

    Also the Asians aren't beating the non-Asians on other stuff... there are just more of them at the top level of performance so it seems that they are.

    i.e. more Asians w/ 1600 SAT are rejected than whites with a 1600.

    , @Redneck farmer
    @Hemid

    Don't give too much away, but how did your band(s) do?

    , @Happy tapir
    @Hemid

    Was that on the pre 1995 sat?

  29. Anon[338] • Disclaimer says:

    The same thing has happened in programming interviews in Silicon Valley. Over the past decade, technical interviews have been thoroughly gamed by Chinese H1B’s, to the point where you have subscription services, like LeetCode.com, that coach experienced developers for 1-2 months, just so they can be ready to interview. Not entry-level developers. Experienced developers, who have 5+ years under their belt.

    Everyone knows the system is broken, but people are too politically correct to acknowledge the problem with Chinese H1B’s. Spergy younger American developers — who have never known another system — will often brag about their achievements on LeetCode, which is basically the equivalent of taking pride in a SAT-prep course.

    The technical interviews themselves started because you had Indian H1B’s that would blatantly lie about everything on their resume, along with having someone sit in on an initial technical phone screen for them.

    Using H1B’s, it strips out any sense of good faith or honesty in the interview process.

    • Agree: Charon, Lowe
    • Replies: @Lowe
    @Anon

    This is a gold comment.

    , @Neoconned
    @Anon

    Isn't rent in the Bay Area like ~3-4k$$ per month?

    I've always wondered how the h1bs afford that sh-t.....do they stack them in bunk beds 10 to a small room like in boot camp or something? That would drop rent to like 300 to 400 a month I suppose....

    Replies: @nebulafox, @dvorak

  30. Two things, from what I read in the California papers, dropping SAT/ACT and grades for admission is because of the COVID-19 disruption of classes. I did not get the sense that this is permanent, but temporary things often become permanent where the left dominates. So maybe COVID-19 was a convenient excuse. Teachers and coaches often have a solid opinion of how a student will do in college. Students that devote time to study and practice usually can navigate study away from home. Just my opinion.

    • Replies: @Hannah Katz
    @Buffalo Joe

    When my daughter applied to Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo (later graduated, BTW), it was all about test scores and grades. The extracurricular activities field on the application was a Yes/No item. Not surprisingly, she found the student body there to be whiter than most Cali schools, and more conservative. Nice bunch of kids. Good school. No monkey business. Rare in California and I am sure they are looking for ways to "transform" it.

    Sadly, they will have to dumb down the UC schools or the Dreamers, misfits and rejects that they will be trying to push in, based on demographic data, will flunk out in massive numbers. "The prof tol' us to do all dis stuff, but I dindu nuffin."

  31. Rob says:
    @Carol
    Grades are useless too, right? I saw that at /Teachers. How colleges are supposed to evaluate applicants is beyond me. Better ace that interview!

    Is the MCAT next?

    Replies: @Rob, @Charon, @Chunkachunk, @cthulhu

    MCAT already got nerfed. The new scoring scale is silly, from 118 to 132 for each of 4 sections, means set to 125. So the overall score is 472 to 528. The goal must be to obscure the scores for less intelligent minorities. According to Kaptest.com:

    The AAMC stresses that this scale emphasizes the importance of the central portion of the score distribution, where most students score (around 125 per section, or 500 total), rather than putting an undue focus on the high end of the scale.

    So they’re basically admitting that they’re providing cover for schools to admit minorities who nearly reach. The MCAT was scored for three sections, physical science, biological science, and verbal reasoning each from 1 or maybe 3 to 15. I don’t think anyone ever got a 45, but I could be wrong.

    Along with 2 essays assigned a combined letter grade. The top essay score was a T. I got a 36S, and only 2.3% did better, maybe 2% got a 36. Once you knew the material, it was basically an IQ test. I’m pretty sure the essays were intended to sniff out WrongThink. One of my essays was something like ‘when should an oppressed group be expected to advocate for themselves, and when is it appropriate for others to do so. I picked early women’s rights warriors and the civil rights movement and sounded exactly like a liberal, but an analytical one.

    New MCAT’s sections are “Biological and Biochemical Foundations of Living Systems,” Chemical and Physical Foundations of Biological Systems,” Psychological, Social, and Biological Foundations of Behavior,” and “ Critical Analysis and Reasoning Skills.” There should be biochem on the test, though if you learned organic chemistry, you’ll learn biochem fine. Hell, just about every reaction is catalyzed, so you don’t even have to decide which groups are more reactive, what temperature to run the reaction, what solvent to use…I can see foundations of behavior, but unless the word “heritability” shows up, it probably doesn’t touch on the real bases of behavior.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Rob


    One of my essays was something like ‘when should an oppressed group be expected to advocate for themselves, and when is it appropriate for others to do so.
     
    When they are in the wrong, no one should advocate for them. When they are in the right, everyone should. But I'm guessing that's not the answer they were looking for.
    , @Unladen Swallow
    @Rob

    Interesting, I remember reading in the early 2000s that a majority of black medical school graduates never passed the state board certification (51%) compared to only 12 percent for whites. Are those certifications being dumbed down as well now?

  32. @Senzo
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    "They are also far less creative on average,"

    Pfff - cope.

    Replies: @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    Look at their societies vs ours. The last 3000 years of history. The art they’ve created. The technology. The political and social systems. It’s not a cope, it’s a fact. They are still the ones wanting to move here, not vice versa.

    • Agree: Mike Tre
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    I agree, to a large extent. It would be stupid to write off Asian intelligence and work ethic and entirely. It’s pretty damn impressive and should be emulated.

    However...if you look at actual career performance - in business, arts, entertainment, politics, whatever - the reality is that Asians, outside of tech, just don’t really do as well as you would expect based on their SAT scores or admission rates to top colleges. If they really were that awesome they’d be even more dominant than Jews and, well, they aren’t. They aren’t even close. They do better than whites overall, to be sure, but not so much better that they deserve to comprise 30-40-50% of the Ivy League student body, or even the UCLA student body. Which is why I can understand why the UC system would choose to ditch the tests. If the end result is that a larger proportion of the student body ends up being white then it might actually improve the UC system.

    Replies: @Stephen Dodge, @AaronB, @Anon

  33. @Carol
    Grades are useless too, right? I saw that at /Teachers. How colleges are supposed to evaluate applicants is beyond me. Better ace that interview!

    Is the MCAT next?

    Replies: @Rob, @Charon, @Chunkachunk, @cthulhu

    Hardly any schools use interviews nowadays–too labor-intensive, not to mention subjective. Those that do declare specifically that they are informational for the student and not intended as admissions tests. There are a few exceptions, mostly specialty programs.

    From the article:

    Proponents of a change say it is fairer to judge students by other measures, such as teacher recommendations.

    Offhand it’s hard to think of a metric which might be less fair than teacher recommendations. Maybe skin color?

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Charon

    Teacher recommendations sounds very corrupt third world. Just bribe the teachers.

    Someone should tell the Teachers Union that they could be sued if a student they wrote a recommendation for didn’t get into a college.

    That’s why employers don’t write references any more except for “ So and so worked as a whatever from March 2010 to March 2020”

    White parents can do one of two things to ensure acceptance and scholarships

    1 Be sure to check the African American box
    2 Change your child’s last name to a common Hispanic one at age 4.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

  34. @anon
    I'd think many good students headed for engineering or the hard sciences will still take one of the tests to demonstrate their credentials. I don't know how much leaders in those disciplines can influence admissions decisions.

    But even worse for the UC future is the diversity statement roadblock for new hires that will force many top people to look elsewhere or to have to bullshit their way past the first hurdle in faculty hiring. We can only hope the coming COVID financial crisis will flush out some administrators and grievance faculty that support the DIE initiatives.

    Bill in Glendale

    Replies: @allensheep, @Simple Simone, @Anonymous

    It’s an interesting question with these “diversity statements”. I’m a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I’m not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I’d feel some guilt over it.

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    @allensheep

    Whites are gonna have to adopt some form of "SJW-taqqiya" in the near future.

    , @Jack D
    @allensheep

    Don't feel guilty. If the system is corrupt (and it is) it's an honor to lie. Lie your head off. They don't deserve better.

    Replies: @XYZ (no Mr.)

    , @jon
    @allensheep

    Here is the scoring system for the Diversity Statement:

    http://ofew.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/rubric_to_assess_candidate_contributions_to_diversity_equity_and_inclusion.pdf

    Replies: @vhrm, @James N. Kennett

    , @Truth
    @allensheep

    4. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and start a business like so many Great What Ammurkuns have done for the last 240 years Son. Be a Commodore Vanderbuilt or a JP Morgan and stop depending on the red, commie Guburment cheese for your living!

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @allensheep

    It's not under oath. Think of it as a creative writing assignment, in which you are being tested in your ability to write a fictional character sketch of the ultimate self-loathing, white academic, who merely wishes to be a subservient "ally" to all the "marginalized people" who justifiably hate you.

    Just remember, objectivity and truth are white supremacists values. And don't forget to mention Emmett Till.

    Alternatively, you could get a real job.

    , @SFG
    @allensheep

    Taqiyya, as they say.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

    I don't have the schmooze or the skill, but if you have the brains to begin a long march through the institutions, this could be the only way to reverse the damage done to the universities.

    Don't feel bad about lying. The Marxists did!

    , @JerseyJeffersonian
    @allensheep

    Well, you could certainly be evasive, or just outright lie, and maybe that might help you to land an entry level position.

    But. It won't stop there, because then you will be under direct scrutiny all of the time by your fellow faculty members as well as by their leftist students who will rat you out like dutiful little Stasi. So, God help you if you get tripped up by relaxing enough to reveal your actual thoughts and sentiments. This is a sobering prospect.

    Yet, as commenter SFG observed, if the dominance of the cultural marxists in the universities is ever to be challenged, maybe some of that taqqiya stuff may be the only available tactical, and over the longer range, strategic avenue open to you and those similarly minded.

    Good luck.

    Replies: @Jim Christian

    , @anonymous
    @allensheep


    Practically #3 is still realistic.
     
    Not so fast. Many schools do not yet require a formal written statement with the application like the UCs do, but all will ask you at some point during the interview process (if you make it that far) 'what are your thoughts are on diversity and inclusion' if not something more specific like 'what will you do to raise the proportion of underrespresented groups in your field.' At probably 70% of places this question will be asked by, among others, an administrator or dean specifically charged with D&I. How much weight that administrator's assessment will be given varies tremendously by institution and department. But either way, have an answer ready to go, and that answer should not be "I really beleive in diversity of thought and viewpoint" if you want the job.
    , @Pericles
    @allensheep

    Option 2, of course. Atone for your guilt once you're in by not granting tenure to SJW assistant professors, promoting rightwingers, and so on. If you need advice, don't hesitate to ask.

  35. @Redneck farmer
    Maybe do like Texas, the top 10 in every class get to go to the public university of their choice?

    Replies: @Charon, @FPD72

    Top 10% you mean? Given the wild variations in high school quality, that’s a way to produce a lot of mismatches in the student body as well as a way to drive off the best students.

    So yeah, sounds like a plan. Popular anyway.

    • Replies: @Alice
    @Charon

    They already have a guarantee that the top n% get into the UC. There's too many kids for them to all go to their "first choice."

    Every college admissions counselor in hs has told all of their even vaguely poaaibly college bound kids about going the Community College route to the guaranteed UC admission. It's well known, but it still requires a high degree of conscientiousness and planning that most kids and their parents can't manage, if they aren't already highly paid/highly g loaded. The system is byzantine, and certain cultures are much better at it than what's left of the culture created by those of European extraction.

    Replies: @education realist

  36. Anonymous[284] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Lot

    Asians are kind of a big, big deal in the U. of California, such as being 36% of undergrads at Berkeley to only 24% white.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    I don’t know Steve – I’ve always been skeptical of people on the right (i.e. you and Murray) who use Asians as a justification for the elimination of Affirmative Action and as a hammer to bash NAMs. I mean – yes if we decided to let 1,000,000 Asians into the U.S. every year instead of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans/Guatamelans/etc wouldn’t every university system in the U.S. look like California’s. High average SAT scores, lots of STEM grads. However, seeing how this little Coronavirus thing has played out (Depression level unemployment levels, negative GDP growth) is this what “we” really want – an Asian socialized elite. Is that what you, Murray and Derbyshire are still trying to sell?

    • Replies: @education realist
    @Anonymous

    Steve isn't one of the people opposing AA because of Asians.

    @iansmith

    "What did Mr. (((Coleman))) do to give Asians an edge?"

    He eliminated all difficulty from the verbal section. He bumped the math achievement up to high level A2, and eliminated all high g questions, focusing on achievement.

    "Is the idea that there is a silent majority of white people who tacitly agree to not protest this "

    No. Non-woke, non-rich whites have just bailed out of high ranked colleges unless they have money or connections. Which is why Lot's comment here:

    "NE Asian-American competition is not a big deal for whites. First, there aren’t enough of them to be a factor in most selective colleges. Only in maybe the 10% most asian areas (coastal CA and NYC) and 2% most selective schools are they really taking up a lot of slots. And even then, the Asian share is often held back by race norming their scores downward."

    is just batshit wrong.

    The influx of Asians, coupled with AA and the ever increasing legacy admits, has made top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.

    Replies: @Lot

    , @Anonymous
    @Anonymous

    The Asian invasion is (for now) limited to coastal states in the NE and West Coast, and maybe the top 25 private universities. The vast majority of liberal arts colleges, flagship universities of all Mid Western, SE and Mountain states are all either close to or well over 70% white. University of Vermont and New Hampshire are 80% white.

    Even in the coastal states, regional universities outside the flagship are still white dominant, e.g. Washington State is 61% white, 15% Hispanic, 6% Asian; Western Washington is 71% white, 9% Hispanic, 6% Asian vs. UW 42% white, 24% Asian, 8% Hispanic.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  37. Nonetheless, I think at the level of upper middle class white parents with kids in high school, their growing awareness of Asian Supremacy is a big deal, and is a major cause of growing white disenchantment with the SAT,

    I think that Asian youth academic success also has a lot to do with the emerging hate China attitude coming from the professional class, across the board politically. The spawn of the professional class are the ones getting eight balled by Asian youth.

  38. I can explain rising Asian SAT scores in two words: Khan Academy

    • Replies: @education realist
    @JimB

    Yeah, no. Khan Academy is mostly invented for white folks. Asians *pay* for test prep.

    In high school life, Khan is basically used at home to look up a subject if the kid either didn't understand or didn't care what the teacher said.

    Moreover, Khan Academy was invented in 2008,when the rise began back in the mid-90s.

  39. @Polymath
    The SAT rewards practice. By far the best “study” method is taking sample exams. Most students who do NOT practice a lot will gain 60-70 points the second time they take the SAT and another 30-40 the third time. The correct method is to take a few tests UNTIMED first, making absolutely sure you give yourself every possible chance to struggle with a problem before giving up, to find out what you don’t know.

    Then, timed versions where you do the best you can in the allotted time and then see how much more you can improve with more time on a separate answer sheet, checking over your work carefully for errors and misunderstandings. Finally, speed drills.

    There are 3 requirements to score well and you MUST master them in that order:
    1. Knowledge
    2. Accuracy
    3. Speed

    Replies: @Charon, @Jack D

    Most students who do NOT practice a lot will gain 60-70 points the second time they take the SAT

    Fascinating. That’s exactly what happened in my case. I didn’t practice and my second score was adequate to purpose so I left it there.

    We had a few students who took preparatory courses but I considered them grinds. But this was decades ago and we didn’t think that the college you attended was going to make or break your life.

    Frankly I still don’t, so long as you attend a respectable college undergrad and use the opportunity to leapfrog to a top-flight university for your graduate/professional degree.

  40. @Anon
    I'm not sure about how the mechanics of the Sailer theory work, because the public face of the anti-SAT movement is clearly the woke, not white middle class parents. Is the idea that there is a silent majority of white people who tacitly agree to not protest this particular woke jihad?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Alice, @in the middle

    There aren’t any white middle class kids who can afford to go to the UC anymore anyway, and they certainly can’t afford SAT prep. the white kids going were kids of Woke Karens.

    Cost to go to Cal for 1 year: $40k in-state
    https://admissions.berkeley.edu/cost

    Estimated Student Budget 2019-2020
    CA RESIDENT NONRESIDENT*
    Tuition and Fees $14,254 $14,254
    Nonresident supplemental tuition – $29,754
    Student Health Insurance Plan** $3,286 $3,286
    *Room and board $17,220 $17,220
    Food $1,644 $1,644
    Books and supplies $870 $870
    Personal $1,876 $1,876
    Transportation $400 $400
    TOTAL $39,550 $69,304
    *Calculated based on students living in the residence halls.

    That’s right, it’s 2k a month to live in Unit 2. living in Berkeley is not cheaper.

    UC San Diego: $25k a year if you live at home

    Cost of Attendance Living with Parents On Campus Off Campus
    CA Resident Tuition/Feesa, d, e (View Components) $14,451 $14,451 $14,451
    Housing and Meals $6,579 $14,295 $13,614
    Books and Supplies $1,128 $1,128 $1,128
    Transportation $1,506 $534 $1,104
    Personal Expenses $1,647 $1,479 $1,590
    Estimated CA Resident Cost Totalsb $25,311 $31,887 $31,887

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Alice


    Cost to go to Cal for 1 year: $40k in-state
     
    Yikes. I assume it was much cheaper before? Is this one of those “list price” that nobody really pays situations?

    Personally, I went to UCLA for free, so I never paid much attention to the costs: I got a huge envelope in the mail, unsolicited, apparently based on my SAT score, offering me a “Regents Scholarship,” which in the late 1970s consisted of four-year full freight support for tuition and fees, room and board via guaranteed dorm approval, free guaranteed parking space, a faculty advisor, and what I didn’t appreciate at the time but which was probably very valuable: my class requests were run in a batch before the normal run, guaranteeing my first choice of classes and times. This favored group consisted of Regents Scholars, athletes (who probably weren’t competing with me for classes), and the staff of the college newspaper, The Daily Bruin (not sure why they got this favored treatment).

    So yay for the SAT as far as I’m concerned This came out of the blue for me, with no application. I never paid attention to grades. I did take maybe three AP classes. But my extracurriculars were things like orchestra ... well, actually, that’s about it.

    , @Hibernian
    @Alice

    Back in the day, state schools in CA were almost free, nominally no tuition, but there were small "fees." Reagan changed that in response to what Berkeley had become, and rightfully so. At Iowa State, my alma mater, I paid $200 a quarter tuition '72 t0 '76, $600 annually. If you wanted to work off your room and board, or room only or board only, I forget which, they'd hire you, no questions asked, to work in the dining hall. One guy was fired for continually eating off the plates going into the dishwasher.

    , @RAZ
    @Alice

    That is daunting. Wonder how many middle class kids admittable to top UC's go to much less expensive but high rated out of state Honors programs like ASU Barrett (their website says more Merit scholars than MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, etc.)?

    When my son was looking at colleges he received an unsolicited offer (it may have been full ride) from our in state honors program. Wasn't enough to convince him. Went to a NE liberal arts school. But he was one of the lucky ones with a grandparent created college fund.

    Replies: @AnonAnon

    , @Pericles
    @Alice

    Crazy. Among other things, paying $6579 for meals at UCSD when you're living at home sticks in my craw. For a 40 week year, that's $33 per day. Does that include a sommelier and a nice bottle of red?

    Imagine having your Berkeley kid turning into an antifa rat. All that money down the toilet.

    , @Anonymous
    @Alice


    Student Health Insurance Plan** $3,286
     
    That is a pretty staggering amount considering that it is for some of the healthiest people. They are virtually all young and there are almost no very sick people among them because you have to be healthy enough to attend the classes.

    College students are healthier than their peers who are not attending. So, they are even healthier than their already very healthy age group.

    I think this price is somehow subsidizing other UC folks like staff or faculty.

  41. I have a more pressing question, why aren’t people calling the mayor of Chicago “Black Karen”?

    Here’s her answer to people who might question her reluctance to loosen the city’s lockdown:

    “I will say the same thing that I tell my 12-year-old: I don’t care what other people do. You’re my kid.”

    Black Karen.

  42. @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    I don't know Steve - I've always been skeptical of people on the right (i.e. you and Murray) who use Asians as a justification for the elimination of Affirmative Action and as a hammer to bash NAMs. I mean - yes if we decided to let 1,000,000 Asians into the U.S. every year instead of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans/Guatamelans/etc wouldn't every university system in the U.S. look like California's. High average SAT scores, lots of STEM grads. However, seeing how this little Coronavirus thing has played out (Depression level unemployment levels, negative GDP growth) is this what "we" really want - an Asian socialized elite. Is that what you, Murray and Derbyshire are still trying to sell?

    Replies: @education realist, @Anonymous

    Steve isn’t one of the people opposing AA because of Asians.

    @iansmith

    “What did Mr. (((Coleman))) do to give Asians an edge?”

    He eliminated all difficulty from the verbal section. He bumped the math achievement up to high level A2, and eliminated all high g questions, focusing on achievement.

    “Is the idea that there is a silent majority of white people who tacitly agree to not protest this ”

    No. Non-woke, non-rich whites have just bailed out of high ranked colleges unless they have money or connections. Which is why Lot’s comment here:

    “NE Asian-American competition is not a big deal for whites. First, there aren’t enough of them to be a factor in most selective colleges. Only in maybe the 10% most asian areas (coastal CA and NYC) and 2% most selective schools are they really taking up a lot of slots. And even then, the Asian share is often held back by race norming their scores downward.”

    is just batshit wrong.

    The influx of Asians, coupled with AA and the ever increasing legacy admits, has made top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.

    • Agree: AnonAnon
    • Thanks: Charon
    • Replies: @Lot
    @education realist

    “ The influx of Asians, coupled with AA and the ever increasing legacy admits, has made top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.”

    What share of white 20 year olds are at top colleges now versus 1980? I doubt it is much different. The colleges are mostly the same size to slightly larger, while the number of white 20 year olds is much lower. At the same time, more colleges are now highly selective and prestigious compared to 1980 (NYU, GW, UCI, UNC, UT Austin). So your factual premise isn’t right.

    Moreover, “non-rich whites” rarely going to top colleges has always been the case, and several generations of assortive mating has drained a fair amount of the talent from the white middle and working class.

    Chinese and Korean Americans are 1.9% of the US population and don’t have many kids. There are just too few of them to make “ top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.” And the ones coming from abroad aren’t displacing anyone, they are more than paying their own way and leading to expansion of colleges who can attract them. I don’t think that’s a good thing since higher ed is bloated and corrupting, but it also isn’t displacing anyone.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alden, @Charon, @GU, @Anonymous

  43. @Charon
    @Redneck farmer

    Top 10% you mean? Given the wild variations in high school quality, that's a way to produce a lot of mismatches in the student body as well as a way to drive off the best students.

    So yeah, sounds like a plan. Popular anyway.

    Replies: @Alice

    They already have a guarantee that the top n% get into the UC. There’s too many kids for them to all go to their “first choice.”

    Every college admissions counselor in hs has told all of their even vaguely poaaibly college bound kids about going the Community College route to the guaranteed UC admission. It’s well known, but it still requires a high degree of conscientiousness and planning that most kids and their parents can’t manage, if they aren’t already highly paid/highly g loaded. The system is byzantine, and certain cultures are much better at it than what’s left of the culture created by those of European extraction.

    • Replies: @education realist
    @Alice

    Not true at all. Whites and Hispanics are slightly more of the transfer population than Asians (31 to 28%). Black transfers are practically non-existent, for obvious reasons.

    Replies: @Alice

  44. @allensheep
    @anon

    It's an interesting question with these "diversity statements". I'm a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I'm not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I'd feel some guilt over it.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Jack D, @jon, @Truth, @Hypnotoad666, @SFG, @JerseyJeffersonian, @anonymous, @Pericles

    Whites are gonna have to adopt some form of “SJW-taqqiya” in the near future.

  45. @allensheep
    @anon

    It's an interesting question with these "diversity statements". I'm a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I'm not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I'd feel some guilt over it.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Jack D, @jon, @Truth, @Hypnotoad666, @SFG, @JerseyJeffersonian, @anonymous, @Pericles

    Don’t feel guilty. If the system is corrupt (and it is) it’s an honor to lie. Lie your head off. They don’t deserve better.

    • Agree: jon
    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @XYZ (no Mr.)
    @Jack D

    Isn't this the rationalisation of all those black Americans you dislike so much? Many of them feel our system is corrupt...in a different way. So your philosophy certainly gives them moral sanction to lie.

    Replies: @Pericles, @bomag, @Anonymous

  46. It’s perfectly rational to dump the SAT when it gives orientals an advantage. That is exactly what Chinese would do if any non-Chinese group scored higher than Han Chinese in China.

    Could we come up with a test that gave white boys an advantage? You bet we could, especially if we devoted entire departments in universities to crapping on orientals and discouraging them from even trying in the first place.

    If there’s any industry that deserves what this corona panic is doing to us, it’s higher ed.

    • Replies: @education realist
    @Bill P

    Asians have a much bigger advantage with grades than test scores.

    the way to disadvantage swots from presenting SAT scores that were non-representative.

    1) return to 1995 and earlier SAT
    2) require test prep companies to turn over records of their students.
    3) require the College Board to spend real money requiring an original essay--not five paragraphs, but analytic--on a topic that draws in literature and historical examples.
    4) forbid non-students from taking the SAT.
    5) End the international SAT, requiring any student who wants to take it to be in US, other than US citizens taking it at an embassy.

    Replies: @vhrm

    , @haha
    @Bill P

    I was fascinated reading your post, simply fascinated.
    "Could we come up with a test that gave white boys an advantage? You bet we could, especially if we devoted entire departments in universities to crapping on orientals and discouraging them from even trying in the first place."
    Crapping all over the place and guzzling six packs in between doing drugs is definitely going to elevate the whites. But hey, then what is wrong about blacks demanding tests that don't discriminate against their low scholastic abilities?

    , @Anon
    @Bill P


    Could we come up with a test that gave white boys an advantage?
     
    Since the common complaint is Asians are not creative, presumably compared to whites, perhaps we could come up with a test that specifically tests creativity. Our local school district has such a test to test elementary kids into the gifted program, it involves getting kids to draw a bunch of pictures based on a theme, solve a puzzle, and write a short story based on a picture that they drew, with only 10 minutes to complete each portion.

    Unfortunately they combine the result of that test with the CogAT test which tests verbal, math and spatial reasoning, and an achievement test like Iowa Achievement Test for English and math. Many Asian kids test prep for the CogAT, though I've heard of parents who paid >$1,000 for the test and the kids still didn't get in. At the end of the day though, 95% of the gifted class is still Asian. White kids just don't care. Their parents care more about them excelling in sports. Our kids didn't get in and we didn't particularly care.

    Maybe that's the same problem with elite colleges. Most white parents are like us, just want our kids to go to the nearest state U to study business. Only Jews and Asians care about elite colleges.

    Replies: @BRK

  47. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Steve:

    Why is President Trump not ordering the National Park Service to re-open the Golden Gate National Recreation Area right in Gov. “Newsom” Gruesome’s backyard?

    The NPS claims to be taking guidance from local county officials on this, including the ridiculous and elitist mandate that people attend beaches and parks only locally without driving. Why even have a FEDERAL National Park Service if all they do is look to local Karens for guidance?

    IT’S STILL NOT TOO LATE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP TO ORDER A DRAMATIC OPENING OF ALL NATIONAL PARKS IN TIME FOR MEMORIAL DAY. SUCH A MOVE WOULD INSTANTLY TAKE THE WIND OUT OF THE SAILS OF THE ELITIST DICTATORS IN BLUE STATES AND COUNTIES.

    https://www.nps.gov/goga/planyourvisit/temporary-facilities-closure-advisory.htm

    • Replies: @anon
    @Anonymous

    May be because they know the "open" drama is a political circus? ICUs are overflowing in Alabama and Minnesota. Mini NY/NJs are popping up in the interiors.

    https://www.al.com/news/2020/05/montgomery-running-out-of-icu-beds-as-coronavirus-cases-double-in-may.html

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/05/23/latest-on-covid19-in-mn

    , @Paco Wové
    @Anonymous

    Why are you shouting at Sailer?

  48. Just throwing a few out there to see if they stick:

    1) modern whites are generally lazy compared to recent immigrants. I’m a rare example of a white person who can outcompete Chinese, but only because I was raised around them and know how hard they work.

    2) upper and upper-middle-class whites have few children. This is the only group, courtesy of research by some Asian fellow at Princeton, that can easily beat the Asians on SATs and the like. There are fewer and fewer of them and more and more Asians.

    3) modern whites are less intelligent on average than they used to be, thanks to dysgenic reproduction. They are competing with Chinese and Indians who have not experienced 100 or so years of a welfare state that enables the less intelligent to have more children.

    4) upper and middle class whites can, as with rich Asians, benefit from alternative entry methods such as nepotism, legacies, and outright bribery. Hence they don’t put much effort into SATs.

    5) Asian parents don’t allow their kids to spend so much time on TV and the internet.

    • Replies: @Stephen Dodge
    @jbwilson24

    I know people who can outcompete almost anyone, people who can write better poetry than the most famous English poets, people who can school the top tier of Chinese mathematicians on what mathematics really is, and vice versa, and it is not because they have rejected laziness.

    The two words you need in order to understand the world are "angelic" and "inspiration".

    Trust me, no one is impressed by a fellow human being who works hard, the only thing that impresses a fellow human being is access to angelic inspiration, and trust me, nobody is talking about that. Absolutely nobody thinks that little Bill Gates is a genius, much less Zuckerberg or Warren Buffett or that Ali Baba dude. We all understand why they are rich - right place, right time, lots of sweat and late nights doing boring crap in order to get a leg up on the other guy ---- but let's face it, none of them are young men with beautiful wives, and we all know that for that reason they are not elite.

    I could give you good advice, but I already did. Verbum sapienti sufficit. Reread Proverbs 8 if this comment confused you.

    Replies: @Bumpkin

    , @Truth
    @jbwilson24


    I’m a rare example of a white person who can outcompete Chinese,
     
    You might rupture a ligament with that kind of back-patting, Old Sport.
  49. @education realist
    The thing is, the UC system has been trying to manipulate the SAT for years to make the test less g-dependent. That did two things, at different times.

    First, by removing all the vocabulary (first antonyms, then analogies,) and the quantitative comparisons and other g-loaded math questions that weren't necessarily advanced, but were difficult.

    Then, by *increasing* the years of math needed to do well on the test.

    So an easier verbal section and a math section that rewards swotting, not brains.

    Couple that with something that Americans, regardless of race, really can't comprehend, which is the hours and hours and hours and hours that otherwise ordinary immigrant Asian kids put into the SAT.

    UC spent 15 years thinking it was a black/white world, and now they have too many Asians.

    I mean, leave aside cheating, which seems to be rampant overseas and, given the shocking ease that random rich folks had in bringing in proxies into the testing room, it may be here as well.

    But I don't think that they'll be able to stay the "No test" course and as you point out, Steve, they're already saying they'll develop their own test, which will have all the same issues.

    Not sure where it goes from here, except I can't seriously see the top UCs maintaining their ranking if all become UC Riverside.

    I've seen some mention of them using the CA state test, the SBAC. That only has four scores. But even 4 scores creates a huge achievement gap.

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @Some Guy, @Gimeiyo, @Bumpkin, @Happy tapir

    When I went to college back in the antedeluvian they had a test that if you didn’t pass it you had to take remedial courses. Also they gave people F’s and kicked people out of school if they didn’t get a minimum 1.90 gpa or something like that. I had a friend who flunked out. He liked to smoke weed and when he was stoned he did not like to study. I had another friend who flunked out because he spent too much time romancing his girlfriend and not enough time studying.

    As long as they flunk people out who don’t do the work the university will do fine. Apparently professors today have to talk to parents lobbying for their children’s marks. Back in the antedeluvian we never heard of a parent talking to a professor about a kid’s mark. Ever. I can’t imagine having a PTA meeting with the parent of somebody who is old enough to go to war.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Morton's toes

    When I went to college back in the antedeluvian

    The past is a different country.

  50. @Alice
    @Charon

    They already have a guarantee that the top n% get into the UC. There's too many kids for them to all go to their "first choice."

    Every college admissions counselor in hs has told all of their even vaguely poaaibly college bound kids about going the Community College route to the guaranteed UC admission. It's well known, but it still requires a high degree of conscientiousness and planning that most kids and their parents can't manage, if they aren't already highly paid/highly g loaded. The system is byzantine, and certain cultures are much better at it than what's left of the culture created by those of European extraction.

    Replies: @education realist

    Not true at all. Whites and Hispanics are slightly more of the transfer population than Asians (31 to 28%). Black transfers are practically non-existent, for obvious reasons.

    • Replies: @Alice
    @education realist

    Because the Asians got in the first time, and more Asians can afford to attend 4 years, as they have the highest median income in CA, 25% higher than white median income. They are less dependent on the CC transfer system.

    My point was not that hispanics and whites don't get in via transfer. It was that Steve is wrong that hs students, esp white hs students, do not about this path. Everyone knows.

    and also, the idea that there's some hidden group of whites who aren't the ones going to private 4 yr colleges elsewhere who could be a higher percentage of transfers is silly.

  51. @Bill P
    It's perfectly rational to dump the SAT when it gives orientals an advantage. That is exactly what Chinese would do if any non-Chinese group scored higher than Han Chinese in China.

    Could we come up with a test that gave white boys an advantage? You bet we could, especially if we devoted entire departments in universities to crapping on orientals and discouraging them from even trying in the first place.

    If there's any industry that deserves what this corona panic is doing to us, it's higher ed.

    Replies: @education realist, @haha, @Anon

    Asians have a much bigger advantage with grades than test scores.

    the way to disadvantage swots from presenting SAT scores that were non-representative.

    1) return to 1995 and earlier SAT
    2) require test prep companies to turn over records of their students.
    3) require the College Board to spend real money requiring an original essay–not five paragraphs, but analytic–on a topic that draws in literature and historical examples.
    4) forbid non-students from taking the SAT.
    5) End the international SAT, requiring any student who wants to take it to be in US, other than US citizens taking it at an embassy.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @education realist


    3) require the College Board to spend real money requiring an original essay–not five paragraphs, but analytic–on a topic that draws in literature and historical examples.
     
    I think extemporaneous essays on random topics on tests are a terrible idea and I'm glad essays in general were dropped from the SAT.

    A good essay depends too much on subject matter expertise and being able to research and check sources.

    High school students (or anyone) writing off the cuff you'd get this kind of thing: (video clips follow from Clueless and Billy Madison)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYYoiRBH3PM

    and this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec7rCsNFn30

    (and that clueless clip is a good example: i remembered "Legally Blonde" and had to search a little to find "Clueless". And if YouTube wasn't around there's no way i could even use the reference since all i remembered was that she made fast talking speeches to work the system)
  52. @Jack D
    @allensheep

    Don't feel guilty. If the system is corrupt (and it is) it's an honor to lie. Lie your head off. They don't deserve better.

    Replies: @XYZ (no Mr.)

    Isn’t this the rationalisation of all those black Americans you dislike so much? Many of them feel our system is corrupt…in a different way. So your philosophy certainly gives them moral sanction to lie.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @XYZ (no Mr.)

    Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

    , @bomag
    @XYZ (no Mr.)


    Isn’t this the rationalisation of all those black Americans... ?
     
    Perhaps so, but is it an honest assessment? Blacks have done comparatively well in the US, and in some part from the system putting a thumb on the scale in their favor.
    , @Anonymous
    @XYZ (no Mr.)


    Isn’t this the rationalisation of all those black Americans you dislike so much? Many of them feel our system is corrupt…in a different way. So your philosophy certainly gives them moral sanction to lie.
     
    If my son can beat me in the 100m dash, it isn't because of cheating. If I beat him, it is.
  53. But white parents and CA university administrators very likely have rather different reasons for not liking the SAT.

    • Agree: Hibernian
  54. @allensheep
    @anon

    It's an interesting question with these "diversity statements". I'm a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I'm not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I'd feel some guilt over it.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Jack D, @jon, @Truth, @Hypnotoad666, @SFG, @JerseyJeffersonian, @anonymous, @Pericles

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @jon

    That is chilling to read.

    You have to really demonstrate your love for Big Brother in detail and your track record of struggle against the man.

    From an implementation point of view it's not a bad set of criteria, but it could so easily come out of the Cultural Revolution or something during the Inquisition...

    , @James N. Kennett
    @jon


    Here is the scoring system for the Diversity Statement:

    http://ofew.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/rubric_to_assess_candidate_contributions_to_diversity_equity_and_inclusion.pdf
     
    That is a truly revolting document. Produced by Berkeley's "Office for Faculty Equity & Welfare", whose name alone implies ironic Orwellian definitions of both "equity" and "welfare".

    When it mentions "mentoring of underrepresented students", I guess this does not include white students, although nowadays whites are probably as under-represented at Berkeley as they are at UCSD.

    Apart from anything else, it is a mechanism for screening out candidates who are not up to date on the latest SJW ideas. It is a political test.

    What an absolute disgrace.
  55. Genetics? Sure, but before we anoint the Chinese as a master race, remember there are a lot of Asian people on the planet, and we’re seeing the cream of the crop from the “fancy” Asians. It’s the same with sub-continentals: For every Dr. Patel over here, there are a few dozen distant cousins back home sitting in squalor.

    Hard work? Absolutely. Good genes combined with a tight, success-oriented family structure.

    Cheating? Not nearly as important as good genes and hard work, but not insignificant. Everything else is rigged these days (securities trading, “banking”), why should we believe standardized tests are any different? Everybody gets straight As nowadays, and backs it up with strong extra-cirriculars. Amongst the non-legacy elites, whether you get in or not comes down to standardized tests. I’m sure they’ve tightened test security from when I took the SAT back in the 80s (“drivers license please”… LOL), but even still…

  56. I don’t think it has anything to do with more Asians versus a diminishing pool of white kids…it has always been about POC not having the scores ( 700’s+/category) to get into the Elite U’s. It has always been about supposed inequity and barriers, of POC kids.

    And, please, for God’s sake, Steve, don’t ever use ‘Secretariat pulling away at Belmont’…just don’t! Secretariat was perfect...and he wasn’t Asian; he was a super being that puts all professors, college students (Asian or not) Tech moguls, Wall S. banksters, smug people of all races to shame! Humans are not as talented, energetic nor as humble, nor as magnificent as Secretariat.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Lagertha

    And, HS kids need to write well in English - f*ck yeah...same deal in Northern Europe.

    , @Lagertha
    @Lagertha

    Youtube is messing with my posts here, and everywhere else.

    https://youtu.be/61cceAXnC6w

  57. @jbwilson24
    Just throwing a few out there to see if they stick:

    1) modern whites are generally lazy compared to recent immigrants. I'm a rare example of a white person who can outcompete Chinese, but only because I was raised around them and know how hard they work.

    2) upper and upper-middle-class whites have few children. This is the only group, courtesy of research by some Asian fellow at Princeton, that can easily beat the Asians on SATs and the like. There are fewer and fewer of them and more and more Asians.

    3) modern whites are less intelligent on average than they used to be, thanks to dysgenic reproduction. They are competing with Chinese and Indians who have not experienced 100 or so years of a welfare state that enables the less intelligent to have more children.

    4) upper and middle class whites can, as with rich Asians, benefit from alternative entry methods such as nepotism, legacies, and outright bribery. Hence they don't put much effort into SATs.

    5) Asian parents don't allow their kids to spend so much time on TV and the internet.

    Replies: @Stephen Dodge, @Truth

    I know people who can outcompete almost anyone, people who can write better poetry than the most famous English poets, people who can school the top tier of Chinese mathematicians on what mathematics really is, and vice versa, and it is not because they have rejected laziness.

    The two words you need in order to understand the world are “angelic” and “inspiration”.

    Trust me, no one is impressed by a fellow human being who works hard, the only thing that impresses a fellow human being is access to angelic inspiration, and trust me, nobody is talking about that. Absolutely nobody thinks that little Bill Gates is a genius, much less Zuckerberg or Warren Buffett or that Ali Baba dude. We all understand why they are rich – right place, right time, lots of sweat and late nights doing boring crap in order to get a leg up on the other guy —- but let’s face it, none of them are young men with beautiful wives, and we all know that for that reason they are not elite.

    I could give you good advice, but I already did. Verbum sapienti sufficit. Reread Proverbs 8 if this comment confused you.

    • Replies: @Bumpkin
    @Stephen Dodge

    Good point. It never ceases to amaze me how much normal people, including most commenters here, don't realize that real intellectual accomplishment has nothing to do with college or academia and is not really about "hard work," at least much of the time and as they'd imagine it. Put all the high-scoring grunts or high-achieving academics you want in a room and tell them to independently come up with what Claude Shannon, the father of information theory which underlies electrical circuits and telecommunications, did and you might as well be waiting on monkeys banging away on typewriters for a thousand years for all the results you'd get.

    That's because intellectual discipline, the ability to reject ideological fashions, and creativity, the motive to ramble around along with a "nose" to sniff out promising lines of thought, have always been severely dismissed, even more so with current college tests and job hiring. Yet those are the most valuable abilities now, but nobody talks about them (only disagree with the non sequitur about "beautiful wives:" they couldn't pick out a Shannon if their life depended on it, or be attracted to him).

  58. @allensheep
    @anon

    It's an interesting question with these "diversity statements". I'm a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I'm not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I'd feel some guilt over it.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Jack D, @jon, @Truth, @Hypnotoad666, @SFG, @JerseyJeffersonian, @anonymous, @Pericles

    4. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and start a business like so many Great What Ammurkuns have done for the last 240 years Son. Be a Commodore Vanderbuilt or a JP Morgan and stop depending on the red, commie Guburment cheese for your living!

  59. “Could we come up with a test that gave white boys an advantage?”

    Explain why the Ancient Mariner shot the albatross.
    Why is April “the cruelest month”?
    In Fargo, why is Marge’s encounter at the Radisson buffet relevant to the plot of the movie?

    etc.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @SafeNow

    In Fargo, why is Marge’s encounter at the Radisson buffet relevant to the plot of the movie?

    Why is it?

    Replies: @MC, @J

  60. Anonymous[867] • Disclaimer says:

    So how are the Jews in charge as representatives of the white race, since they actually are white equivalent to something like southern Italians and southern Greeks, holding up against the East Asian invasion to protect the whites in the US?

  61. @jbwilson24
    Just throwing a few out there to see if they stick:

    1) modern whites are generally lazy compared to recent immigrants. I'm a rare example of a white person who can outcompete Chinese, but only because I was raised around them and know how hard they work.

    2) upper and upper-middle-class whites have few children. This is the only group, courtesy of research by some Asian fellow at Princeton, that can easily beat the Asians on SATs and the like. There are fewer and fewer of them and more and more Asians.

    3) modern whites are less intelligent on average than they used to be, thanks to dysgenic reproduction. They are competing with Chinese and Indians who have not experienced 100 or so years of a welfare state that enables the less intelligent to have more children.

    4) upper and middle class whites can, as with rich Asians, benefit from alternative entry methods such as nepotism, legacies, and outright bribery. Hence they don't put much effort into SATs.

    5) Asian parents don't allow their kids to spend so much time on TV and the internet.

    Replies: @Stephen Dodge, @Truth

    I’m a rare example of a white person who can outcompete Chinese,

    You might rupture a ligament with that kind of back-patting, Old Sport.

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
  62. Steve, RIT used to be very focused on churning out employment ready grads for Kodak, Xerox, Bausch & Lomb, etc. Now, as the campus has grown quite a bit very quickly thanks to liberal deans:

    https://www.rit.edu/news/rit-will-no-longer-require-sat-or-act-scores-applicants-beginning-fall-2021

    Word from people on campus is that an admissions bubble is bursting and they are ready to accept any warm body with cash. Very sad for a former rigorous institution. Is this an outlier, or a trend? The liberal changes began well before KungFlu hit, BTW.

  63. @Redneck farmer
    Maybe do like Texas, the top 10 in every class get to go to the public university of their choice?

    Replies: @Charon, @FPD72

    At UT-Austin, only the top 7% are automatically accepted. I think the other schools all accept the top 10%, although I’m not sure about A&M or UT-Dallas. The top 10% law was passed in response to the Hopwood decision, which ruled that UT had discriminated against a white applicant on the basis of race. As long as Texas high schools are racially de facto segregated, this will insure that a good number of black and Hispanic students will get accepted.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @FPD72

    The problem with automatically letting in top 10% of high school classes is it just whomps the chances of the black kids who probably would be competitive, as shown by them doing well but not top 10% at tough high schools.

    Replies: @Lagertha

  64. @SafeNow
    “Could we come up with a test that gave white boys an advantage?”

    Explain why the Ancient Mariner shot the albatross.
    Why is April “the cruelest month”?
    In Fargo, why is Marge’s encounter at the Radisson buffet relevant to the plot of the movie?

    etc.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    In Fargo, why is Marge’s encounter at the Radisson buffet relevant to the plot of the movie?

    Why is it?

    • Replies: @MC
    @Steve Sailer

    Roger Ebert's Answer:

    "[I]t separates her two crucial meetings with the suspect Jerry Lundegaard (William H. Macy). She interviews Jerry almost as an afterthought at the car dealership (where she went looking for Shep Proudfoot). Then she has dinner with her old friend Mike. The next morning, she learns in a phone call that everything he told her was a fabrication. Then we see her looking thoughtful in her squad car. Then she returns to the dealership to ask Jerry more questions--and this time he cracks and flees the interview. Being deceived by the school friend nudged her to replay her original interview with Jerry. Imagine the Lundegaard interview as one unbroken scene, and you can see how much less effective it would have been. The delay between the scenes also allows us to imagine Lundegaard marinating in his guilt and fear, setting up his extreme nervousness when she returns."

    https://www.rogerebert.com/answer-man/movie-answer-man-06011997

    , @J
    @Steve Sailer

    Marge discovers that Mike is crazy. That insight (i.e. people has non-obvious mental problems) is thematically relevant.

  65. By eyeball it looks like the median SAT for the best demographic is about 1225 (on a 1600 scale); that’s worse than the 75th percentile (of SAT test-takers).

    It’s ~200 points shy of the bottom quartile entry SAT at a decent university – e.g., Brown, where the bottom quartile is 1420 (1420 is also the mean SAT for Boston U, which at #98 is the bottom US university in the Global100).

    At #57 (just above my alma mater) Brown is near the top of the bottom half of the Global Top100. Cornell is #8, and also has a bottom quartile cutoff of 1420.

    Anyhow… quality seems to be maintained until the mid-50s, then drops off reasonably quickly towards the bottom of the top 100: scores that were ~1.5σ below the mean at #57 are the mean at #98.

    I’ve deliberately excluded MIT or Caltech (genuinely élite élite, where the 25th percentile is over 1500) or the Eastern Ivies (where legacy is more important and – along with AA – fucks up merit lists).

    There must be soooo many disappointed Tiger Mums… I bet they secretly wish their kids were half-black, to get Yale and Harvard Wokemon points.

    • Replies: @sb
    @Kratoklastes

    Monash ?

    , @Slimer
    @Kratoklastes


    There must be soooo many disappointed Tiger Mums… I bet they secretly wish their kids were half-black, to get Yale and Harvard Wokemon points.
     
    Hmmm, next time I hear "no rike a brack" I'll mention these Wokemon points.

    Doubt it'll work though. People want to attend Harvard and Yale because they're the pinnacle of white prestige, and having too many black or even half-black faces on campus would taint their reputation. This would be true even if blacks were stellar students.There's an article somewhere about foolish Africans being lured into Chinese universities with promises of academic scholarships, only to see them given instead to lower performing white students. So Asians by and large are probably unbothered by universities scrapping the SAT requirement, as they want the best schools to remain somewhat white.

    Replies: @anon

  66. Anon[646] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alice
    @Anon

    There aren't any white middle class kids who can afford to go to the UC anymore anyway, and they certainly can't afford SAT prep. the white kids going were kids of Woke Karens.

    Cost to go to Cal for 1 year: $40k in-state
    https://admissions.berkeley.edu/cost

    Estimated Student Budget 2019-2020
    CA RESIDENT NONRESIDENT*
    Tuition and Fees $14,254 $14,254
    Nonresident supplemental tuition - $29,754
    Student Health Insurance Plan** $3,286 $3,286
    *Room and board $17,220 $17,220
    Food $1,644 $1,644
    Books and supplies $870 $870
    Personal $1,876 $1,876
    Transportation $400 $400
    TOTAL $39,550 $69,304
    *Calculated based on students living in the residence halls.


    That's right, it's 2k a month to live in Unit 2. living in Berkeley is not cheaper.

    UC San Diego: $25k a year if you live at home

    Cost of Attendance Living with Parents On Campus Off Campus
    CA Resident Tuition/Feesa, d, e (View Components) $14,451 $14,451 $14,451
    Housing and Meals $6,579 $14,295 $13,614
    Books and Supplies $1,128 $1,128 $1,128
    Transportation $1,506 $534 $1,104
    Personal Expenses $1,647 $1,479 $1,590
    Estimated CA Resident Cost Totalsb $25,311 $31,887 $31,887

    Replies: @Anon, @Hibernian, @RAZ, @Pericles, @Anonymous

    Cost to go to Cal for 1 year: $40k in-state

    Yikes. I assume it was much cheaper before? Is this one of those “list price” that nobody really pays situations?

    Personally, I went to UCLA for free, so I never paid much attention to the costs: I got a huge envelope in the mail, unsolicited, apparently based on my SAT score, offering me a “Regents Scholarship,” which in the late 1970s consisted of four-year full freight support for tuition and fees, room and board via guaranteed dorm approval, free guaranteed parking space, a faculty advisor, and what I didn’t appreciate at the time but which was probably very valuable: my class requests were run in a batch before the normal run, guaranteeing my first choice of classes and times. This favored group consisted of Regents Scholars, athletes (who probably weren’t competing with me for classes), and the staff of the college newspaper, The Daily Bruin (not sure why they got this favored treatment).

    So yay for the SAT as far as I’m concerned This came out of the blue for me, with no application. I never paid attention to grades. I did take maybe three AP classes. But my extracurriculars were things like orchestra … well, actually, that’s about it.

  67. These do not look like the right numbers and I don’t know where you got them from

    As I pointed out in February, the University of California faculty task force found that the r of GPA-only forecasting models was only 0.26 but the r of SAT-only forecasting models was 0.44. That’s pretty huge.

    As from your own link you in the table GPA All only R/slope=0.39, R^2=0.16 SAT only R/slope=0.46, R^2=0.21
    and your description is

    The SAT explains 21% of the variance in freshman grades at U of California campuses, compared to only 16% for high school grade point averages.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Jim Doe

    Thanks, I'll fix it.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Jim Doe

    thanks, I screwed up.

  68. Anonymous[968] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    NE Asian-American competition is not a big deal for whites. First, there aren’t enough of them to be a factor in most selective colleges. Only in maybe the 10% most asian areas (coastal CA and NYC) and 2% most selective schools are they really taking up a lot of slots. And even then, the Asian share is often held back by race norming their scores downward.

    The foreign asians when they become too numerous have a mildly negative impact on campus life. Their English isn’t very good so you have the non-STEM intro level classes dumbed down to accommodate them for example. They also fill up shared dorm fridges with stinky dishes from home.

    Heavily offsetting this however is the fact they pay full tuition so subsidize everyone else.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @ATBOTL

    Oriental grinds take up med and elite STEM grad slots and leave us with technically competent but don’t-think-out-of-the-box doctors and researchers. And their communications skills are mediocre. The real answer is more slots but the AMA is entrenched by cuckpublican state legislators. We would be better off to federalize the accreditation because the doctor union would lose power against other pressure groups.

    • Agree: Lot
    • Replies: @anon
    @Anonymous

    The real answer is more slots but the AMA is entrenched by cuckpublican state legislators. We would be better off to federalize the accreditation because the doctor union would lose power against other pressure groups.

    Utter nonsense. You have no idea how med students become doctors, thus you cannot know where the bottlenecks in the system are. If you want to learn, look up "residency" and "preceptor" for a start.

  69. Policy wise, I like the idea of open admission: 18+ year old students can take classes at whatever school they want. No selective admission required.

    Lots of academic material is hard, not everyone is ready for that, but the challenge should be in mastering the material, not in being allowed to enroll and try a class out.

  70. OT: Flynn case is getting weirder. Judge Sullivan has just hired a lawyer for himself. Bizarre.

    • Replies: @Charon
    @Anon

    I'm sitting here praying that the judge's lawyer will soon find it necessary to hire his own lawyer. Then. The Singularity.

    , @Anon
    @Anon

    Oh, this is news to me. Judge Sullivan is black, undergrad and J.D. from Howard University.

    So he’s probably an affirmative action judge. And historically there has been a lot of corruption surrounding black judges. I’d check his bank deposits.

    Replies: @dr kill, @EdwardM

  71. So what’s with the catastrophic drop in Native (presumably Native American) scores?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @James B. Shearer

    A friend said that reading about the Flynn case is like trying to listen to someone explain the plot of Christopher Nolan's "Inception" if you have never seen it.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  72. Cato says:

    The Charles Murray comment is a badge of honor that your children should cherish.

    Asians might be pushing ahead because of the number of exceptional Asians (mostly Chinese in the last 30 years, but Koreans before that) who go through grad school in the US, and then obtain residency. They push their (very talented) children hard, and most do very well in the university selection process.

  73. The Asians living in America are not a representative sample, in terms of intelligence and diligence, of Asians in general.

    The tiny fraction of Asians worldwide who take the SAT are not a representative sample, in terms of intelligence and diligence, of Asians in general.

    The vast majority of Whites living in America take the SAT or ACT.

    The education of Asians who come from countries such as China is a 13-year-long test-taking boot camp, with parents and teachers serving as the drill sergeants. A large percentage of the students who end up taking the SAT take many, many practice tests and take “crack-the-SAT” classes at tutoring centers taught by people who know the test backwards and forwards — and there are ALWAYS questions that allegedly will be on the next scheduled test floating around. Many international high schools offer SAT-prep courses. Teachers who teach subjects such as English and Math are sometimes required to add in to their classes material aimed at preparing students for the SAT. I’ve taught at SAT-prep centers and international schools in China. What I’ve observed is that, if a student’s entire life is taking tests and then that student takes 25 SAT practice exams, takes 20 to 40 hours of SAT-prep classes at a tutoring center, and takes SAT-prep classes in high school, that student’s SAT score invariably increases — by a lot. That is a large part of the explanation for foreign Asians’ SAT scores. It has less to do with intelligence and more to do with simply putting in the time and effort preparing. Looking at the level of Asian achievement when it comes to producing novel insights in pretty much any field, including the ones they’re supposedly good at, I think the evidence bears out this conclusion.

    • Replies: @anonymous jew
    @Pooh Bear 250

    There are a handful of studies on Fancy Asians adopted at birth and raised by Whites in Western countries. I don't think Asians put out for adoption are representative of Asians in general either. And yet these adopted Fancy Asian rejects still - just slightly - outperform Whites.

    Fancy Asians aren't necessarily succeeding (at least on tests) because they're some cognitive elite of the East. Also, the behaviors that you describe - ie being agreeable and focused - are heritable just like IQ. I think cultural factors could explain a lot, particularly Asians pulling away. But even if US Asians were completely representative of their populations and fully assimilated, there's plenty of evidence they would still produce more high scoring grinds that never make it beyond middle management.

    But I do agree that there's more to success than IQ. I noted before that I think Jews' low levels of agreeableness can actually be an advantage in many fields. (I think there's more to Jewish success than being tribal and nepotism, but that's another story).

    Replies: @Lot, @Bardon Kaldian, @Lowry Samuel, @Anon

  74. @James B. Shearer
    So what's with the catastrophic drop in Native (presumably Native American) scores?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    A friend said that reading about the Flynn case is like trying to listen to someone explain the plot of Christopher Nolan’s “Inception” if you have never seen it.

    • LOL: vhrm
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpN_wAlYZSs

    You should watch this, the whole thing, but especially 3m in. My sides!

  75. Why not consider a different question?

    Namely, how can white kids be taught to work hard. Or perhaps, how can white parents be taught to raise their kids to work hard.

    And similarly, of course, for black Americans. And across the board.

    BTW, one of my favourite quotes is, “Other people read books; Jews study them”. (Quoting from memory. Too lazy to look it up.)

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Felix M

    Do you have kids? Teaching kids to work hard won't happen, unless you as the parent are a hard worker. It has to be in the genes, and they have to see it modeled. You can't sit on the couch and yell, "Go do your homework! And then practice the piano! And then study some extra Latin!" But if you sit patiently with them and explain the math problems and try reading their literature so you can discuss it with them and let them hear you practicing the piano, you might see them work a little harder.

    It sounds like I'm talking about homeschooling, but even homeschool parents struggle to get some of their kids to finish a daily, simple assignment. Hard work isn't just a class you can take at school or a video you can watch on youtube. It might be close to the ability to carry a tune: you're either born with it, or with much struggle and in the right environment you can get near to the mark.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    , @Sin City Milla
    @Felix M

    I thought it was: Other people write books; Jews publish them--and decide who will be published.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  76. Since everything is racial bean-counting now anyway, why not just split up the UC system into pre-selected racial satrapies?

    UC Irvine — Asians
    UC Berkeley — Jews and overflow Asians crowded out of UCI
    UCLA — serious Whites
    UC Santa Cruz, UC Santa Barbara — unserious Whites
    UC San Diego — Mixed bag free-for-all
    UC Davis, UC Merced — Latinos
    UC Riverside — Muslims and Negroes

    You’ll need some sort of screening technology to keep the Jews and hapas from constantly trying to sneak or scam their way into the White schools, and athletic scholarships will have to be re-thought, but otherwise, why not just admit that everything is now a race-hustle, and structure accordingly?

    Either that, or do away with all testing and just give everybody a Basketball Exam.

    • Troll: ScarletNumber
  77. @education realist
    @Alice

    Not true at all. Whites and Hispanics are slightly more of the transfer population than Asians (31 to 28%). Black transfers are practically non-existent, for obvious reasons.

    Replies: @Alice

    Because the Asians got in the first time, and more Asians can afford to attend 4 years, as they have the highest median income in CA, 25% higher than white median income. They are less dependent on the CC transfer system.

    My point was not that hispanics and whites don’t get in via transfer. It was that Steve is wrong that hs students, esp white hs students, do not about this path. Everyone knows.

    and also, the idea that there’s some hidden group of whites who aren’t the ones going to private 4 yr colleges elsewhere who could be a higher percentage of transfers is silly.

  78. @TheMassageIsTheMedium
    @Senzo

    Look at their societies vs ours. The last 3000 years of history. The art they've created. The technology. The political and social systems. It's not a cope, it's a fact. They are still the ones wanting to move here, not vice versa.

    Replies: @Wilkey

    I agree, to a large extent. It would be stupid to write off Asian intelligence and work ethic and entirely. It’s pretty damn impressive and should be emulated.

    However…if you look at actual career performance – in business, arts, entertainment, politics, whatever – the reality is that Asians, outside of tech, just don’t really do as well as you would expect based on their SAT scores or admission rates to top colleges. If they really were that awesome they’d be even more dominant than Jews and, well, they aren’t. They aren’t even close. They do better than whites overall, to be sure, but not so much better that they deserve to comprise 30-40-50% of the Ivy League student body, or even the UCLA student body. Which is why I can understand why the UC system would choose to ditch the tests. If the end result is that a larger proportion of the student body ends up being white then it might actually improve the UC system.

    • Replies: @Stephen Dodge
    @Wilkey

    I am in a really good mood tonight (big successes last week in real world efforts) so take what I am gonna say with a grain of salt.

    WE ALL KNOW how Canadians like to amuse themselves with what they think is a subtle form of humor, we all know Mexicans don't expect their kids to do a damn thing about the fact that most of their fellow Mexicans are, unfortunately, helots who have to work extremely difficult jobs just to get by, and we all know that people from Jamaica are pretty much what they are.

    Look, it does not matter, life in North America - Canada, America, Mexico, and off the coast, places like Jamaica, is pretty sweet compared to life in many other parts of the world. ALMOST NOBODY UNDERSTANDS that Mexicans don't care AT ALL about their academic failures and their failures to keep their grandmas from living and dying in poverty, they all (well, most of them, anyway) think they are THE BEST OF THE BEST because they live their lives as if they were the stars of some telenovela, even the fat Mexican women consider themselves precious (they are right) and the hardworking helots love themselves, because they pay for their kid's food, even if they let grandma almost starve to death because they are simply not concerned about working hard to make life better for everyone, the way people in other countries do. THEY ALL THINK THEY ARE HEROES. They aren't, but they think they are.

    Now think of life in some dorm in some college that is the best college in its province of China, I GUARANTEE YOU that most people there do not think all that much of themselves, and they work hard,

    now think of how Jamaicans think of themselves. I think there is no lack of self-esteem there.

    Canadians like to pride themselves on their dry humor, but there are not a lot of them, and they have access to an awful lot of beautiful land.

    Think about it - Mexicans love themselves whether or not they get good test scores and whether or not they have any idea about how to keep their cities sanitary, Canadians straight up love themselves as the best people on the planet, and Jamaicans have no lack of self-esteem.

    I leave the question of what the citizens of the United States think about "test scores" as an exercise for the reader.

    Replies: @TheMassageIsTheMedium, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Anonymous

    , @AaronB
    @Wilkey

    Asians are like 25% of top schools, but have won only 5% of Nobels. (Equal to their share of the population, not their share of top schools.)

    So clearly Asian attendance in top schools does not reflect their ability.

    In any event, the SAT no longer does what it was intended - screen for innate ability.

    The SAT was a cultural artifact - assuming a certain type of population with certain attitudes to study, it was a decent tool to screen for innate ability.

    But it only works in that kind of culture - I guess mid-20th century white America, with its particular attitude to studying.

    It is not a useful tool for screening for innate ability in a culture of grinds. The myth that you cannot study for the SAT has now been definitively disproven by Asians.

    Now that America is a different place, with a population with different values, we need to come up with a better way to screen for innate ability.

    I think admitting anyone who wants to go to any college, while flunking those who can't compete in the first year, is not such a bad idea. Universities will acquire reputations that will scare away those who aren't fit for the most part.

    Perhaps the only requirement should be an interview - like they do in Oxford, and used to do to select officers in the WW2 German Army.

    It may be the American obsession with scientific testing is less able to select for talent than more simple human systems like interviews, and the future will see a return to such systems.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    , @Anon
    @Wilkey


    if you look at actual career performance – in business, arts, entertainment, politics, whatever – the reality is that Asians, outside of tech, just don’t really do as well as you would expect based on their SAT scores or admission rates to top colleges. If they really were that awesome they’d be even more dominant than Jews and, well, they aren’t.
     
    To what extent is that due to racism and Jewish ethnic nepotism? A large extent, I believe. Jews dominate Wall Street, Hollywood, SV, DC, media, academia, the law profession not so much through talent but through clannish loyalty. I recently watched a TV show called "Suits", a legal drama originally on USA now on Amazon Prime. Almost all the male characters are played by Jewish/Israeli actors, and they overwhelmingly hook up with the shiksas. The only characters not Jewish are black, with an occasional Indian lawyer, East Asians are non-existent on the show.

    Indians are now doing the same thing in tech, banking and law, they hire and promote one another based on ethnic nepotism. Whites and East Asians are probably the least clannish, that's why they keep losing out. If you look at Asian achievement in East Asia (China, Japan, and the Asian Tigers) - they have no problem starting and running successful corporations, banks, write novels, compose their own pop music, produce their own movies and TV shows, build good infrastructure, run relatively safe and crime free societies.

    East Asian universities are also moving up the rankings. Look at this QS ranking of world universities in 2020: https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2020, the top 2 Asian universities (both in Singapore) are now ranked #11, ahead of all the Ivy League except Harvard, while only 4 US universities are in the top 10 (MIT, Stanford, Harvard, UChicago). 3 other Asian universities also made the top 25: Tsinghua Univ and Peking University from China (#16 and #22), and University of Tokyo, #22.

  79. vhrm says:
    @Hemid
    You've always missed something vital on this question, Steve. I think we all have.

    I was a 1600-scoring Jew in the early '90s and still, probably because my extracurriculars weren't ruling-class-coded enough—I was, vulgarly, a professional rock musician by the time I applied for college—I needed a world-famous friend of my father's, an alumnus who'd won three Pulitzers, to vouch for me so I'd be allowed into Cornell. At 16-fucking-hundred, imputed IQ 168, I was a special, exceptional, ethno-/nepoto-favoritism "admit."

    American Asians aren't beating us on only test scores. They're winning on other, more important, publicly unspoken criteria, too. I don't know which. Is playing violin instead of guitar really worth so much? Maybe. Maybe because that's what Jews used to do, and Asians imitate previous generations of us, and that's who decides.

    ?

    Replies: @vhrm, @Redneck farmer, @Happy tapir

    I think you may have gotten unlucky or written particularly unappealing essays or SOMETHING.
    1600 in the early 90s was a pretty big deal though they were never a guarantee for any particular top school.

    Did you apply to other top schools as well?

    Also the Asians aren’t beating the non-Asians on other stuff… there are just more of them at the top level of performance so it seems that they are.

    i.e. more Asians w/ 1600 SAT are rejected than whites with a 1600.

  80. After hectoring us for weeks to social distance for our own safety and to show consideration to frontline workers, and after weeks of lecturing us that NY state will re-open based on the data, data, data, Cuomo bowed to ultra Orthodox Jewish pressure and signed an order allowing up to 10 people to gather for religious services anywhere in the state. This even though the CITY has not met his metrics for re-opening.

    The ACLU sued and so now gatherings up to 10 are allowed for any reason.

    What a farce.

    • Replies: @TheMassageIsTheMedium
    @merema

    Can the senior management of all major Wall Street and mainstream media organizations be asked to start meeting in person too? Windows closed and in a small room please.

  81. @Wilkey
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    I agree, to a large extent. It would be stupid to write off Asian intelligence and work ethic and entirely. It’s pretty damn impressive and should be emulated.

    However...if you look at actual career performance - in business, arts, entertainment, politics, whatever - the reality is that Asians, outside of tech, just don’t really do as well as you would expect based on their SAT scores or admission rates to top colleges. If they really were that awesome they’d be even more dominant than Jews and, well, they aren’t. They aren’t even close. They do better than whites overall, to be sure, but not so much better that they deserve to comprise 30-40-50% of the Ivy League student body, or even the UCLA student body. Which is why I can understand why the UC system would choose to ditch the tests. If the end result is that a larger proportion of the student body ends up being white then it might actually improve the UC system.

    Replies: @Stephen Dodge, @AaronB, @Anon

    I am in a really good mood tonight (big successes last week in real world efforts) so take what I am gonna say with a grain of salt.

    WE ALL KNOW how Canadians like to amuse themselves with what they think is a subtle form of humor, we all know Mexicans don’t expect their kids to do a damn thing about the fact that most of their fellow Mexicans are, unfortunately, helots who have to work extremely difficult jobs just to get by, and we all know that people from Jamaica are pretty much what they are.

    Look, it does not matter, life in North America – Canada, America, Mexico, and off the coast, places like Jamaica, is pretty sweet compared to life in many other parts of the world. ALMOST NOBODY UNDERSTANDS that Mexicans don’t care AT ALL about their academic failures and their failures to keep their grandmas from living and dying in poverty, they all (well, most of them, anyway) think they are THE BEST OF THE BEST because they live their lives as if they were the stars of some telenovela, even the fat Mexican women consider themselves precious (they are right) and the hardworking helots love themselves, because they pay for their kid’s food, even if they let grandma almost starve to death because they are simply not concerned about working hard to make life better for everyone, the way people in other countries do. THEY ALL THINK THEY ARE HEROES. They aren’t, but they think they are.

    Now think of life in some dorm in some college that is the best college in its province of China, I GUARANTEE YOU that most people there do not think all that much of themselves, and they work hard,

    now think of how Jamaicans think of themselves. I think there is no lack of self-esteem there.

    Canadians like to pride themselves on their dry humor, but there are not a lot of them, and they have access to an awful lot of beautiful land.

    Think about it – Mexicans love themselves whether or not they get good test scores and whether or not they have any idea about how to keep their cities sanitary, Canadians straight up love themselves as the best people on the planet, and Jamaicans have no lack of self-esteem.

    I leave the question of what the citizens of the United States think about “test scores” as an exercise for the reader.

    • Replies: @TheMassageIsTheMedium
    @Stephen Dodge

    Sir this is an Arby's

    Replies: @Stephen Dodge

    , @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Stephen Dodge

    Jamal, can you please call a taxi for Mr. Biden? Oh, and Destiny, you can just go ahead and charge those dances to the house, I'll work it all out with you tomorrow.

    , @Anonymous
    @Stephen Dodge

    Good question. The best thing to do to be happy is to stay away from the news, esp. Unz Review, nothing but piss and vinegar.

  82. Looking at both the math and verbal portions, picking 2017 as an example…

    Asian students are four points ahead of whites in math, but are sixty points ahead in verbal.

    Based on my sample size of two children, both of whom are now working their way to STEM PhDs, white kids don’t read anything. Zip. And you simply can’t convince them to study to try to make up for it.

    My son knew he was going to get a math PhD when he was in the eighth grade. And he knew that his verbal score wouldn’t matter. And it didn’t.

    So maybe whites kids are more pragmatic and don’t have the immigrant impetus to hyper achieve.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon7

    "Asian students are four points ahead of whites in math, but are sixty points ahead in verbal."

    Other way around?

    Replies: @Anon7

  83. Is the increase in Asian SAT scores more from newer immigrants (1st or 2nd generation) or is the increase the same for more established Asians? If it’s mainly from the newer immigrants it could be either we are getting the cream of the Asian crop or they are more likely to see cheating as acceptable way to get ahead and they don’t apply the same moral standards as whites (Christians) do. If the SAT score increase is also from Asians who have been culturally absorbed into the US, then maybe they do have some cognitive advantage over whites.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Arthur Biggs


    If it’s mainly from the newer immigrants it could be either we are getting the cream of the Asian crop...

     

    Bloody hell, it took 84 comments for someone to bring this point up? Is everybody's Ctrl-F "immi" button not working?

    How much of this is mere selection bias? Are we drawing from the top of China and Korea like we are drawing from the bottom of Latin America?

    Replies: @Lagertha, @education realist

  84. @Morton's toes
    @education realist

    When I went to college back in the antedeluvian they had a test that if you didn't pass it you had to take remedial courses. Also they gave people F's and kicked people out of school if they didn't get a minimum 1.90 gpa or something like that. I had a friend who flunked out. He liked to smoke weed and when he was stoned he did not like to study. I had another friend who flunked out because he spent too much time romancing his girlfriend and not enough time studying.

    As long as they flunk people out who don't do the work the university will do fine. Apparently professors today have to talk to parents lobbying for their children's marks. Back in the antedeluvian we never heard of a parent talking to a professor about a kid's mark. Ever. I can't imagine having a PTA meeting with the parent of somebody who is old enough to go to war.

    Replies: @anon

    When I went to college back in the antedeluvian

    The past is a different country.

  85. @Anon7
    Looking at both the math and verbal portions, picking 2017 as an example...

    Asian students are four points ahead of whites in math, but are sixty points ahead in verbal.

    Based on my sample size of two children, both of whom are now working their way to STEM PhDs, white kids don’t read anything. Zip. And you simply can’t convince them to study to try to make up for it.

    My son knew he was going to get a math PhD when he was in the eighth grade. And he knew that his verbal score wouldn’t matter. And it didn’t.

    So maybe whites kids are more pragmatic and don’t have the immigrant impetus to hyper achieve.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    “Asian students are four points ahead of whites in math, but are sixty points ahead in verbal.”

    Other way around?

    • Replies: @Anon7
    @Steve Sailer

    Sorry about that.

    I asked my son who the smartest math students in grad school are, and he said Asians. Among the Asians, he says the Chinese are the smartest. If you ask him why that is, he shrugs and says their N is bigger, 1.4 billion Chinese vs. 0.33 billion Americans.

    And they send the cream of their crop here. There are only just so many spots at the top. Game over.

    Replies: @Anon, @PiltdownMan, @Lin

  86. @education realist
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    Yeah, I think this is not unlikely BUT the rich and connected will be the folks who get into the top schools.

    But if the state Unis in Iowa, Idaho, Georgia, Dakotas, all the central states, guaranteed admission to SAT 600 X2 and up, and make a big deal about it, that would help.

    Replies: @anon

    Unis in Iowa, Idaho, Georgia, Dakotas, all the central states

    They have all been 100% white & American for nearly a Century. How well known have they become compared to the coastal Unis?

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @anon

    at 2020, did you not realize that no one cares about the interior? - I do, but most of the USA dismisses "privileged white kids."

    , @anon
    @anon

    They have all been 100% white & American for nearly a Century

    All of those uni's have students from China and the Middle East. Every one of them. Such students are cash cows, and highly prized. Even a degree from Idaho or Iowa or South Dakota State is worth more prestige points. Word gets back to the home country.

    One of the big questions to be determined later this year: how many foreign, cash paying, students will return to US universities? A few? Some? Many? Most? It's gonna make a difference, because even with a state appropriation and Pell grants and Federal loans, that sweet tuition cash matters.

    The smaller private schools may fail if they can't get foreign cash.

    Replies: @education realist

    , @Twinkie
    @anon


    Unis in Iowa
     
    University of Iowa now has a huge foreign Chinese student contingent, which has created some tension in Iowa City:

    https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2015/07/us/culture-clash-american-story/

    The rise of Chinese students is most pronounced in the Midwest, with Big Ten universities heavily recruiting students within China over the last decade. Among the top 20 American universities with the highest Chinese student populations, nine are from the Big Ten, according to The Brookings Institution.

    The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign leads the way with 10,000 international students, including about 4,900 from China. Purdue is not far behind with 9,000 international students, including 4,600 Chinese. At both universities, international students make up nearly one-quarter of the entire student body.

    Michigan State has the highest population of Chinese students in the nation, with more than 5,300. Ohio State, Indiana, Minnesota and Michigan have seen an explosion in their Chinese student bodies: Each school has more than 3,000 Chinese students.

    At Iowa, the number of Chinese students outnumbers the combined African-American and Latino student population.

    The influx of Chinese students began about eight years ago, the result of America's great recession and China's burgeoning middle class. American universities were in crisis mode with their budgets getting slashed. Administrators needed a viable financial alternative.

    "Those are the two forces that are bringing about this huge growth of foreign students into the United States," says Neil G. Ruiz, a senior policy analyst and associate fellow for the Brookings Institution. "The impact is great. It helps the universities in the short run get the tuition and the students they need in terms of revenue."
     

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Anonymous

  87. Just make UCB and UCLA 100% black, the rest of the UCs 100% Hispanic, mandate that Asians and whites can only attend Cal States, problem solved.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Anon

    Or, we could just mandate that one needed an IQ of above Room temperature in North Dakota, July to post on chatboards.

  88. @Jim Doe
    These do not look like the right numbers and I don't know where you got them from

    As I pointed out in February, the University of California faculty task force found that the r of GPA-only forecasting models was only 0.26 but the r of SAT-only forecasting models was 0.44. That’s pretty huge.
     
    As from your own link you in the table GPA All only R/slope=0.39, R^2=0.16 SAT only R/slope=0.46, R^2=0.21
    and your description is

    The SAT explains 21% of the variance in freshman grades at U of California campuses, compared to only 16% for high school grade point averages.
     

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Steve Sailer

    Thanks, I’ll fix it.

  89. @FPD72
    @Redneck farmer

    At UT-Austin, only the top 7% are automatically accepted. I think the other schools all accept the top 10%, although I’m not sure about A&M or UT-Dallas. The top 10% law was passed in response to the Hopwood decision, which ruled that UT had discriminated against a white applicant on the basis of race. As long as Texas high schools are racially de facto segregated, this will insure that a good number of black and Hispanic students will get accepted.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    The problem with automatically letting in top 10% of high school classes is it just whomps the chances of the black kids who probably would be competitive, as shown by them doing well but not top 10% at tough high schools.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Steve Sailer

    well, that's the situation no one wants to admit! Schools' best students are not necessarily the most intelligent when it comes to hard math.

  90. @Anonymous
    OT

    Steve:

    Why is President Trump not ordering the National Park Service to re-open the Golden Gate National Recreation Area right in Gov. "Newsom" Gruesome's backyard?

    The NPS claims to be taking guidance from local county officials on this, including the ridiculous and elitist mandate that people attend beaches and parks only locally without driving. Why even have a FEDERAL National Park Service if all they do is look to local Karens for guidance?

    IT'S STILL NOT TOO LATE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP TO ORDER A DRAMATIC OPENING OF ALL NATIONAL PARKS IN TIME FOR MEMORIAL DAY. SUCH A MOVE WOULD INSTANTLY TAKE THE WIND OUT OF THE SAILS OF THE ELITIST DICTATORS IN BLUE STATES AND COUNTIES.

    https://www.nps.gov/goga/planyourvisit/temporary-facilities-closure-advisory.htm

    Replies: @anon, @Paco Wové

    May be because they know the “open” drama is a political circus? ICUs are overflowing in Alabama and Minnesota. Mini NY/NJs are popping up in the interiors.

    https://www.al.com/news/2020/05/montgomery-running-out-of-icu-beds-as-coronavirus-cases-double-in-may.html

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/05/23/latest-on-covid19-in-mn

  91. @Anon
    Just make UCB and UCLA 100% black, the rest of the UCs 100% Hispanic, mandate that Asians and whites can only attend Cal States, problem solved.

    Replies: @Truth

    Or, we could just mandate that one needed an IQ of above Room temperature in North Dakota, July to post on chatboards.

  92. @Pooh Bear 250
    The Asians living in America are not a representative sample, in terms of intelligence and diligence, of Asians in general.

    The tiny fraction of Asians worldwide who take the SAT are not a representative sample, in terms of intelligence and diligence, of Asians in general.

    The vast majority of Whites living in America take the SAT or ACT.

    The education of Asians who come from countries such as China is a 13-year-long test-taking boot camp, with parents and teachers serving as the drill sergeants. A large percentage of the students who end up taking the SAT take many, many practice tests and take "crack-the-SAT" classes at tutoring centers taught by people who know the test backwards and forwards -- and there are ALWAYS questions that allegedly will be on the next scheduled test floating around. Many international high schools offer SAT-prep courses. Teachers who teach subjects such as English and Math are sometimes required to add in to their classes material aimed at preparing students for the SAT. I've taught at SAT-prep centers and international schools in China. What I've observed is that, if a student's entire life is taking tests and then that student takes 25 SAT practice exams, takes 20 to 40 hours of SAT-prep classes at a tutoring center, and takes SAT-prep classes in high school, that student's SAT score invariably increases -- by a lot. That is a large part of the explanation for foreign Asians' SAT scores. It has less to do with intelligence and more to do with simply putting in the time and effort preparing. Looking at the level of Asian achievement when it comes to producing novel insights in pretty much any field, including the ones they're supposedly good at, I think the evidence bears out this conclusion.

    Replies: @anonymous jew

    There are a handful of studies on Fancy Asians adopted at birth and raised by Whites in Western countries. I don’t think Asians put out for adoption are representative of Asians in general either. And yet these adopted Fancy Asian rejects still – just slightly – outperform Whites.

    Fancy Asians aren’t necessarily succeeding (at least on tests) because they’re some cognitive elite of the East. Also, the behaviors that you describe – ie being agreeable and focused – are heritable just like IQ. I think cultural factors could explain a lot, particularly Asians pulling away. But even if US Asians were completely representative of their populations and fully assimilated, there’s plenty of evidence they would still produce more high scoring grinds that never make it beyond middle management.

    But I do agree that there’s more to success than IQ. I noted before that I think Jews’ low levels of agreeableness can actually be an advantage in many fields. (I think there’s more to Jewish success than being tribal and nepotism, but that’s another story).

    • Replies: @Lot
    @anonymous jew

    “ But I do agree that there’s more to success than IQ. I noted before that I think Jews’ low levels of agreeableness”

    Dunkel’s study has Jews with the highest level of agreeableness, by more than half a SD, in one study, and exactly average in another.

    http://www.midus.wisc.edu/findings/pdfs/1488.pdf

    Replies: @SFG

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @anonymous jew


    But I do agree that there’s more to success than IQ.
     
    Of course. Just, most people here think if you're not an IQ fetishist, then you must be an IQ "denier".

    Life is more complicated.

    It all boils down to unreliability of psychometry as such. And I’m not talking about geniuses, bursts of creativity & similar stuff.

    Simply, what those tests should measure is talent, gift, capability for some area. If limited to such, rather narrow field, psychometry tests could work very well.They could show that some people are gifted for numbers, or for engineering tasks, good with words, or good in space orientation etc.

    But it is absurd to derive (I know the argument of factor analysis, but it is bollocks) that some magical number, IQ, is the final product which will show a person’s success in life in general. What is “success”? How can we measure capability of an individual to attain”success” in a given field?

    There are many problems with IQ ideology which remain insurmountable.

    We all use the word “intelligence” & even if we look at psychology dictionaries & agree with it, nonetheless the concept remains vague. Probably there are a few types of intelligence: verbal, arithmetic, geometrical & maybe a few others. Why would we lump these types of intelligence together is beyond my comprehension.

    As for musical ability, various types of talents in other fields…better not call this “intelligence” (social “intelligence, emotional “intelligence”,..). This is a misuse of the word. Ability, talent, whatever…

    Intelligence, as defined by textbooks, is by no means as important & decisive in modern societies as IQ religionists would like us to believe. More, I would rather call it TQ (talent quotient) or CQ (capability quotient), than IQ. There are a few CQ, we all know this:

    * CQ for something like mathematics
    * CQ for abstract thinking in words (not eloquence)
    * CQ for ….

    In short, old “multiple intelligences” theory was onto something, although not in the old, dogmatic way. How many capabilities are to be measured- I’d leave it to psychometricians as long as they follow common sense. I’d say 10-15.

    But to “extract” one number from all those variegated talents is absurd (I don’t buy the factor analysis argument). If one could, say, try to assess AQ (artistic quotient) from areas of literary writing, music, painting, dance, … for a guy who is a genius painter, but abysmally bad in dancing, music,…- we would get a mediocre AQ, a figure which doesn’t tell us anything. The guy is a genius in one area & moron in others.

    Then, there remains the big, big elephant of creativity. Sorry, but creativity is something different & cannot be reduced to any psycho test; it, at its peaks, comes in flashes including intuition, dreaming, imagination,…

    Creativity is not, as yet, described or classified satisfactorily. For instance, invention is somehow connected to creativity, but these terms are not identical.

    Then, there are different types of creativity: “flash” type of creativity, which is “inspiration”, like in Haiku or Zen painting, so different from long, “high structural” creativity, a good example being Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel.

    Perhaps in some future we will be able to ascertain, experimentally, through neuro-imagining, neurophysiology, brain investigation …. some new aspects & dimensions of human cognition and behavior (emotion, impulse control, ethical development,..) and intuition and imagination and …

    Until then, IQ “wars” are like masturbation compared to real sex.

    And it is even more absurd to try it with human collectives.

    We all see with our own eyes what different human collectives are capable of, and it is not some magical number that will give us varieties of human accomplishment & functionality of human collectives, given the historical moment, ideas, manners, environment, … and even more- hope, self-reliance, adaptability, stubbornness, morals..

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/mn-mongolia

    Mongolia: Avg. IQ 101

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 13,700

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/lt-lithuania

    Lithuania: Avg. IQ 91

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 32,400

    Replies: @Charon, @RAZ, @dr kill, @anonymous

    , @Lowry Samuel
    @anonymous jew

    Think people are missing current developments at Top Ivies and Bugle Bracket Banks/Elite Boutiques. Asians (East Asians and Indians) are hugely overrepresented in Economics majors and finance club last at Top Schools (HYPSW)...and have been funneling into bulge bracket banks/elite boutiques/PE for years now. Tons of Asians are present in low/middle ranks in these places and will soon, say 10 yrs, dominate upper management (elite bankers/money managers) there too. Forget medicine, consulting, law. These finance gigs pay very serious money and in 20 yrs they will be hugely Asian...from top to bottom.

    Once these heights are conquered, many, many results will flow through American society. Plus, what do the remaining white gentiles and Jews do? Dominance will flow from here...plus there is a neever ending supply of new Asian immigrants to expand the beachhead and take the place of any Asians that might slack off.

    , @Anon
    @anonymous jew


    I noted before that I think Jews’ low levels of agreeableness can actually be an advantage in many fields. (I think there’s more to Jewish success than being tribal and nepotism, but that’s another story).
     
    Alan Dershowitz says Jews succeed because of Chutzpah, I translate that to "shameless dishonesty". Many Jews think everything they do is justified due to the perceived two thousand year oppression, pogroms, Holocaust etc. Jews are always the victims in their minds, they don't accept that it takes two to tango. Even now that they run the show and are the oppressors rather than the oppressed, they still think they're the victims. That's why I don't buy the whole "Judeo-Christian" garbage that Dennis Prager keeps touting. Jews are not Christians. Jewish ethics are completely different from Protestant ethics. Simply put, they have none, other than "Fuck everybody I'm here to take what's owed to me".
  93. @education realist
    The thing is, the UC system has been trying to manipulate the SAT for years to make the test less g-dependent. That did two things, at different times.

    First, by removing all the vocabulary (first antonyms, then analogies,) and the quantitative comparisons and other g-loaded math questions that weren't necessarily advanced, but were difficult.

    Then, by *increasing* the years of math needed to do well on the test.

    So an easier verbal section and a math section that rewards swotting, not brains.

    Couple that with something that Americans, regardless of race, really can't comprehend, which is the hours and hours and hours and hours that otherwise ordinary immigrant Asian kids put into the SAT.

    UC spent 15 years thinking it was a black/white world, and now they have too many Asians.

    I mean, leave aside cheating, which seems to be rampant overseas and, given the shocking ease that random rich folks had in bringing in proxies into the testing room, it may be here as well.

    But I don't think that they'll be able to stay the "No test" course and as you point out, Steve, they're already saying they'll develop their own test, which will have all the same issues.

    Not sure where it goes from here, except I can't seriously see the top UCs maintaining their ranking if all become UC Riverside.

    I've seen some mention of them using the CA state test, the SBAC. That only has four scores. But even 4 scores creates a huge achievement gap.

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @Some Guy, @Gimeiyo, @Bumpkin, @Happy tapir

    If changes to the SAT caused the Asian rise then you would expect it to jump right after the changes, not steadily rise year over year.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Some Guy

    Or it opened the door to test prepping?

  94. @Lagertha
    I don't think it has anything to do with more Asians versus a diminishing pool of white kids...it has always been about POC not having the scores ( 700's+/category) to get into the Elite U's. It has always been about supposed inequity and barriers, of POC kids.

    And, please, for God's sake, Steve, don't ever use 'Secretariat pulling away at Belmont'...just don't! Secretariat was perfect...and he wasn't Asian; he was a super being that puts all professors, college students (Asian or not) Tech moguls, Wall S. banksters, smug people of all races to shame! Humans are not as talented, energetic nor as humble, nor as magnificent as Secretariat.

    https://youtu.be/61cceAXnC6w

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Lagertha

    And, HS kids need to write well in English – f*ck yeah…same deal in Northern Europe.

  95. @Steve Sailer
    @FPD72

    The problem with automatically letting in top 10% of high school classes is it just whomps the chances of the black kids who probably would be competitive, as shown by them doing well but not top 10% at tough high schools.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    well, that’s the situation no one wants to admit! Schools’ best students are not necessarily the most intelligent when it comes to hard math.

  96. @anon
    @education realist


    Unis in Iowa, Idaho, Georgia, Dakotas, all the central states
     
    They have all been 100% white & American for nearly a Century. How well known have they become compared to the coastal Unis?

    Replies: @Lagertha, @anon, @Twinkie

    at 2020, did you not realize that no one cares about the interior? – I do, but most of the USA dismisses “privileged white kids.”

  97. @Some Guy
    @education realist

    If changes to the SAT caused the Asian rise then you would expect it to jump right after the changes, not steadily rise year over year.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Or it opened the door to test prepping?

  98. Lot says:
    @education realist
    @Anonymous

    Steve isn't one of the people opposing AA because of Asians.

    @iansmith

    "What did Mr. (((Coleman))) do to give Asians an edge?"

    He eliminated all difficulty from the verbal section. He bumped the math achievement up to high level A2, and eliminated all high g questions, focusing on achievement.

    "Is the idea that there is a silent majority of white people who tacitly agree to not protest this "

    No. Non-woke, non-rich whites have just bailed out of high ranked colleges unless they have money or connections. Which is why Lot's comment here:

    "NE Asian-American competition is not a big deal for whites. First, there aren’t enough of them to be a factor in most selective colleges. Only in maybe the 10% most asian areas (coastal CA and NYC) and 2% most selective schools are they really taking up a lot of slots. And even then, the Asian share is often held back by race norming their scores downward."

    is just batshit wrong.

    The influx of Asians, coupled with AA and the ever increasing legacy admits, has made top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.

    Replies: @Lot

    “ The influx of Asians, coupled with AA and the ever increasing legacy admits, has made top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.”

    What share of white 20 year olds are at top colleges now versus 1980? I doubt it is much different. The colleges are mostly the same size to slightly larger, while the number of white 20 year olds is much lower. At the same time, more colleges are now highly selective and prestigious compared to 1980 (NYU, GW, UCI, UNC, UT Austin). So your factual premise isn’t right.

    Moreover, “non-rich whites” rarely going to top colleges has always been the case, and several generations of assortive mating has drained a fair amount of the talent from the white middle and working class.

    Chinese and Korean Americans are 1.9% of the US population and don’t have many kids. There are just too few of them to make “ top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.” And the ones coming from abroad aren’t displacing anyone, they are more than paying their own way and leading to expansion of colleges who can attract them. I don’t think that’s a good thing since higher ed is bloated and corrupting, but it also isn’t displacing anyone.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Lot

    In your neighborhood, UC San Diego undergrad is only 19% white American, but 37% Asian-American and 19% foreign (mostly Asian), so about 2.5 to 1 more Asians than whites in suburban La Jolla, CA.

    Replies: @Lot

    , @Alden
    @Lot

    check university websites and you’ll see the percentage of Asians.

    , @Charon
    @Lot

    There are over 400,000 Chinese students in America's colleges today, and that's not even counting a single "Chinese-American".

    , @GU
    @Lot

    Schools like NYU, GW, UCI, UNC, UT Austin, etc. are only competitive now *precisely because* various factors have exponentially increased the difficulty of white college admissions. Affirmative Action, soft racial and ethnic quotas, Jewish nepotism, and admitting a ludicrous number of foreign undergraduates (20% at UCSD, a public university, WTF!?) has made it quite difficult for whites.

    If college admissions were still like they were in, say, 1950, or even 1975, a lot of this stuff wouldn’t be an issue.

    , @Anonymous
    @Lot


    Chinese and Korean Americans are 1.9% of the US population and don’t have many kids. There are just too few of them to make “ top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.” And the ones coming from abroad aren’t displacing anyone, they are more than paying their own way and leading to expansion of colleges who can attract them.
     
    Misleading stats. Chinese and Koreans may make up 1.9% of the total population, but what % of college age kids in the US? Probably many times higher.

    International kids absolutely are displacing white kids, not just at elite colleges but also at state colleges. My state flagship was only 3% international in 2000, now it is 18% international. Yet due to land limitations, the school cannot build more dorms or classrooms, so they aren't accepting more students than they did in 2000, so you do the math. I know of many white kids in my neighborhood who previously would've gotten in easily who got rejected to make room for these full fee paying international students, at least 50% are from China alone, just so our colleges can afford a dean and associate dean of diversity for every department, center for climate change studies, LGBTQ support etc.

    The international students didn't come for the degree, they are using it as a stepping stone for immigration, they came for the Optional Practical Training, and H1b visas, to pave the way for an eventual green card. If Trump cancels the OPT and H1b, our colleges' international enrollment particularly from China and India would plummet, and that is exactly what we need to kill off this progressive lunacy started by our colleges.

  99. It’s not like lowering admissions standards/removing objective standardized tests is some revolutionary experiment; most famously/disastrously, it was implemented at CUNY in the late 1960s. Heather Mac Donald summarized in 1994:

    Though CUNY had launched the nation’s first affirmative action program for
    minority students in 1966, both the university and the city continued to be
    rocked by racial disturbances. So in 1970, CUNY undertook to change its
    demographics on a far larger scale, through what came to be known as “open
    admissions.” Buell Gallagher, president of City College, explained that if
    the university did not increase its intake of blacks and Puerto Ricans, the
    city would become “a balkanized collection of hostile groups held together
    only by a common sewer system.” CUNY dismantled its entrance requirements;
    unprepared students would be admitted and given whatever remedial training
    they needed to participate in traditional college classes. In addition to
    providing a college education, in other words, CUNY’s mission now included preparing
    students for college on an unprecedented scale.

    CUNY’s experiment in large-scale remedial education may now be declared a
    failure. Proponents of open admissions at the time insisted that the remedial
    students would be brought up to the level of the college’s high standards.
    Instead, academic standards have dropped toward the level of the new
    students. Just how low is underscored by a comparison with the State
    University of New York, where 56 percent of students graduate within six
    years-more than double CUNY’s eight-year rate.

    While open admissions affected CUNY’s colleges differentially, all have
    been hurt. City College, having achieved the greatest prominence, had the
    greatest distance to fall-and fall it did, shattering its reputation as the “Harvard
    of the poor” almost overnight. Queens College, on the other hand, has by all
    accounts been most successful in maintaining its academic caliber, leading,
    predictably, to charges of “elitism.”

    There remain good students and good programs throughout the system, but it
    is harder and harder for those students to get the education they deserve,
    because CUNY’s remedial functions are swallowing up all others. Like a
    compulsive gambler, CUNY continues to direct a disproportionate share of its
    resources to students with the least chance of success, while academically
    prepared students are largely left to fend for themselves. (The exception is
    CUNY’s graduate programs, many of which remain of high caliber.)

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/downward-mobility-12583.html

  100. Henry Harpending’s view was that the pre-1995 SAT Verbal section was one of the best IQ tests ever due to its huge high end — Only a few dozen kids per year got a perfect 800 on the Verbal section. In 1987, for example, only 9 students in America got perfect 1600s.

    But the math test back then topped out at a more moderate level. I once heard somebody at Rice U. say, “Yeah, sure I got an 800 on math, but I’m not a real 800 like Joe is.”

    • Replies: @education realist
    @Steve Sailer

    As I mentioned on Twitter, the GRE was basically the SAT verbal pre-1995. On the SAT, anything over 700 was 99th percentile.

    The math might not have been hard from a knowledge standpoint, but it was pretty g-loaded. The GRE Quant was like that as well. When I coached the GRE, I would routinely run into engineers and other technical people who had taken calculus and more, yet had a tough time on the test--not low scores, but 650, 700.

    There are far more high IQ math than hi IQ verbal, I think which is why verbal scores are rarer.

    Replies: @prime noticer

    , @James Speaks
    @Steve Sailer

    My experience with both the SAT and GRE before 1982 was that the quantitive part measured how perfectly you could do tenth grade math.

    Replies: @International Jew

    , @Fred C Dobbs
    @Steve Sailer

    I haven't kept up to speed on the SATs, though I was aware they changed the scoring.......I took them 45 years ago, as you did.......So I was surprised that a 1200 is now a lousy score. I got a 1210, which I recall was a respectable 85th percentile or so. Probably slightly better at verbal than math.

    8 years later my GMATs also came in at the 85th percentile. (High 70s math, low 90s verbal). Darned if I can remember the actual score.

    According to this, the average in 1975 was 1010. https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time

  101. anon[194] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    @Lot

    Oriental grinds take up med and elite STEM grad slots and leave us with technically competent but don’t-think-out-of-the-box doctors and researchers. And their communications skills are mediocre. The real answer is more slots but the AMA is entrenched by cuckpublican state legislators. We would be better off to federalize the accreditation because the doctor union would lose power against other pressure groups.

    Replies: @anon

    The real answer is more slots but the AMA is entrenched by cuckpublican state legislators. We would be better off to federalize the accreditation because the doctor union would lose power against other pressure groups.

    Utter nonsense. You have no idea how med students become doctors, thus you cannot know where the bottlenecks in the system are. If you want to learn, look up “residency” and “preceptor” for a start.

  102. Anonymous[413] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @James B. Shearer

    A friend said that reading about the Flynn case is like trying to listen to someone explain the plot of Christopher Nolan's "Inception" if you have never seen it.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    You should watch this, the whole thing, but especially 3m in. My sides!

  103. @Lot
    @education realist

    “ The influx of Asians, coupled with AA and the ever increasing legacy admits, has made top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.”

    What share of white 20 year olds are at top colleges now versus 1980? I doubt it is much different. The colleges are mostly the same size to slightly larger, while the number of white 20 year olds is much lower. At the same time, more colleges are now highly selective and prestigious compared to 1980 (NYU, GW, UCI, UNC, UT Austin). So your factual premise isn’t right.

    Moreover, “non-rich whites” rarely going to top colleges has always been the case, and several generations of assortive mating has drained a fair amount of the talent from the white middle and working class.

    Chinese and Korean Americans are 1.9% of the US population and don’t have many kids. There are just too few of them to make “ top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.” And the ones coming from abroad aren’t displacing anyone, they are more than paying their own way and leading to expansion of colleges who can attract them. I don’t think that’s a good thing since higher ed is bloated and corrupting, but it also isn’t displacing anyone.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alden, @Charon, @GU, @Anonymous

    In your neighborhood, UC San Diego undergrad is only 19% white American, but 37% Asian-American and 19% foreign (mostly Asian), so about 2.5 to 1 more Asians than whites in suburban La Jolla, CA.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Steve Sailer

    UCSD is especially Asian because it is STEM focused. 25% of undergrads are majoring in life sciences, 4% in humanities. It also draws most students from outside San Diego. It is also prestigious within its specialties in partly thanks to its very smart NE Asian-American students.

    San Diego State serves as the local generalist quasi-UC because of UCSD’s specialization, leading to SDSU having much higher SATs than the other Cal States. It is 34% non-hispanic white and 13% Asian. (Adjust both upward if you want to exclude other, unknown, mixed race, and foreign which total 18%.)

    https://www.thoughtco.com/sat-scores-for-admission-to-cal-state-788606

    Not sure I’d call La Jolla suburban anymore, too many apartments, office towers, walkable neighborhoods. It is more like a cleaner and more wholesome version of Santa Monica. The only areas that really feel suburban still are areas too ultra-rich and/or too mountainous for denser development.

    Replies: @Znzn

  104. Lot says:
    @anonymous jew
    @Pooh Bear 250

    There are a handful of studies on Fancy Asians adopted at birth and raised by Whites in Western countries. I don't think Asians put out for adoption are representative of Asians in general either. And yet these adopted Fancy Asian rejects still - just slightly - outperform Whites.

    Fancy Asians aren't necessarily succeeding (at least on tests) because they're some cognitive elite of the East. Also, the behaviors that you describe - ie being agreeable and focused - are heritable just like IQ. I think cultural factors could explain a lot, particularly Asians pulling away. But even if US Asians were completely representative of their populations and fully assimilated, there's plenty of evidence they would still produce more high scoring grinds that never make it beyond middle management.

    But I do agree that there's more to success than IQ. I noted before that I think Jews' low levels of agreeableness can actually be an advantage in many fields. (I think there's more to Jewish success than being tribal and nepotism, but that's another story).

    Replies: @Lot, @Bardon Kaldian, @Lowry Samuel, @Anon

    “ But I do agree that there’s more to success than IQ. I noted before that I think Jews’ low levels of agreeableness”

    Dunkel’s study has Jews with the highest level of agreeableness, by more than half a SD, in one study, and exactly average in another.

    http://www.midus.wisc.edu/findings/pdfs/1488.pdf

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Lot

    Higher agreeableness I could buy if they asked too many social justice questions in the survey. Higher openness--sure, that's heavily loaded on left-right. Higher extraversion...it kinda fits the stereotype. Lower conscientiousness...I *guess*...

    But lower *neuroticism*, Lot? (In an American, not Israeli, sample?) Not buying it.

  105. anon[194] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    @education realist


    Unis in Iowa, Idaho, Georgia, Dakotas, all the central states
     
    They have all been 100% white & American for nearly a Century. How well known have they become compared to the coastal Unis?

    Replies: @Lagertha, @anon, @Twinkie

    They have all been 100% white & American for nearly a Century

    All of those uni’s have students from China and the Middle East. Every one of them. Such students are cash cows, and highly prized. Even a degree from Idaho or Iowa or South Dakota State is worth more prestige points. Word gets back to the home country.

    One of the big questions to be determined later this year: how many foreign, cash paying, students will return to US universities? A few? Some? Many? Most? It’s gonna make a difference, because even with a state appropriation and Pell grants and Federal loans, that sweet tuition cash matters.

    The smaller private schools may fail if they can’t get foreign cash.

    • Replies: @education realist
    @anon

    @lot

    "What share of white 20 year olds are at top colleges now versus 1980? "

    You really should look up this data before you make a jackass of yourself.


    @anon

    I can't grasp the anons, but the anon who wonders why middle America unis "overwhelmingly white" aren't already doing well. The other anon said correctly that the middle American unis are not overwhelmingly white, and are collecting money from Chinese students. However, what *I* said, and the first anon somehow missed, is that those universities should restrict admission to students with 600 per test or higher, which they don't do now, so the first anon's question is absurd.

    @morton's toes:

    California universities have ended all remedial classes. I wrote about it here.


    @vhrm

    I didn't say random topics. Kid can choose the topic. You want to reward actual smart people without test prep, that's how you do it.

    @someguy:

    As Steve says, and I mentioned somewhere (having this convo in two places), the 9os is when there was a huge Asian influx and the rise of Asian test prep began. (first company I know of began in 1987, I think). The test prep companies began studying the test, paying people to take it, building the curriculum, and creating test prep classes four or five times as long.

  106. @Steve Sailer
    Henry Harpending's view was that the pre-1995 SAT Verbal section was one of the best IQ tests ever due to its huge high end -- Only a few dozen kids per year got a perfect 800 on the Verbal section. In 1987, for example, only 9 students in America got perfect 1600s.

    But the math test back then topped out at a more moderate level. I once heard somebody at Rice U. say, "Yeah, sure I got an 800 on math, but I'm not a real 800 like Joe is."

    Replies: @education realist, @James Speaks, @Fred C Dobbs

    As I mentioned on Twitter, the GRE was basically the SAT verbal pre-1995. On the SAT, anything over 700 was 99th percentile.

    The math might not have been hard from a knowledge standpoint, but it was pretty g-loaded. The GRE Quant was like that as well. When I coached the GRE, I would routinely run into engineers and other technical people who had taken calculus and more, yet had a tough time on the test–not low scores, but 650, 700.

    There are far more high IQ math than hi IQ verbal, I think which is why verbal scores are rarer.

    • Replies: @prime noticer
    @education realist

    "There are far more high IQ math than hi IQ verbal, I think which is why verbal scores are rarer."

    i've thought about this for 30 years, and i think i can explain what's happening here.

    it's the difficulty of the test, not the distribution of ability. the math test is less difficult.

    might post a longer explanation at some point. if i feel like it. nobody is paying me.

  107. vhrm says:
    @education realist
    @Bill P

    Asians have a much bigger advantage with grades than test scores.

    the way to disadvantage swots from presenting SAT scores that were non-representative.

    1) return to 1995 and earlier SAT
    2) require test prep companies to turn over records of their students.
    3) require the College Board to spend real money requiring an original essay--not five paragraphs, but analytic--on a topic that draws in literature and historical examples.
    4) forbid non-students from taking the SAT.
    5) End the international SAT, requiring any student who wants to take it to be in US, other than US citizens taking it at an embassy.

    Replies: @vhrm

    3) require the College Board to spend real money requiring an original essay–not five paragraphs, but analytic–on a topic that draws in literature and historical examples.

    I think extemporaneous essays on random topics on tests are a terrible idea and I’m glad essays in general were dropped from the SAT.

    A good essay depends too much on subject matter expertise and being able to research and check sources.

    High school students (or anyone) writing off the cuff you’d get this kind of thing: (video clips follow from Clueless and Billy Madison)

    [MORE]

    and this

    (and that clueless clip is a good example: i remembered “Legally Blonde” and had to search a little to find “Clueless”. And if YouTube wasn’t around there’s no way i could even use the reference since all i remembered was that she made fast talking speeches to work the system)

  108. @Stephen Dodge
    @Wilkey

    I am in a really good mood tonight (big successes last week in real world efforts) so take what I am gonna say with a grain of salt.

    WE ALL KNOW how Canadians like to amuse themselves with what they think is a subtle form of humor, we all know Mexicans don't expect their kids to do a damn thing about the fact that most of their fellow Mexicans are, unfortunately, helots who have to work extremely difficult jobs just to get by, and we all know that people from Jamaica are pretty much what they are.

    Look, it does not matter, life in North America - Canada, America, Mexico, and off the coast, places like Jamaica, is pretty sweet compared to life in many other parts of the world. ALMOST NOBODY UNDERSTANDS that Mexicans don't care AT ALL about their academic failures and their failures to keep their grandmas from living and dying in poverty, they all (well, most of them, anyway) think they are THE BEST OF THE BEST because they live their lives as if they were the stars of some telenovela, even the fat Mexican women consider themselves precious (they are right) and the hardworking helots love themselves, because they pay for their kid's food, even if they let grandma almost starve to death because they are simply not concerned about working hard to make life better for everyone, the way people in other countries do. THEY ALL THINK THEY ARE HEROES. They aren't, but they think they are.

    Now think of life in some dorm in some college that is the best college in its province of China, I GUARANTEE YOU that most people there do not think all that much of themselves, and they work hard,

    now think of how Jamaicans think of themselves. I think there is no lack of self-esteem there.

    Canadians like to pride themselves on their dry humor, but there are not a lot of them, and they have access to an awful lot of beautiful land.

    Think about it - Mexicans love themselves whether or not they get good test scores and whether or not they have any idea about how to keep their cities sanitary, Canadians straight up love themselves as the best people on the planet, and Jamaicans have no lack of self-esteem.

    I leave the question of what the citizens of the United States think about "test scores" as an exercise for the reader.

    Replies: @TheMassageIsTheMedium, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Anonymous

    Sir this is an Arby’s

    • Thanks: Charon
    • Replies: @Stephen Dodge
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    "communication is very difficult after the inflation point of two standard deviations"

  109. @merema
    After hectoring us for weeks to social distance for our own safety and to show consideration to frontline workers, and after weeks of lecturing us that NY state will re-open based on the data, data, data, Cuomo bowed to ultra Orthodox Jewish pressure and signed an order allowing up to 10 people to gather for religious services anywhere in the state. This even though the CITY has not met his metrics for re-opening.

    The ACLU sued and so now gatherings up to 10 are allowed for any reason.

    What a farce.

    Replies: @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    Can the senior management of all major Wall Street and mainstream media organizations be asked to start meeting in person too? Windows closed and in a small room please.

  110. @J.Ross
    @Anon

    White people are not allowed to talk about this stuff openly but they can vote with their choice of schools and school policy; also some Jews can act as "white people who are allowed to speak," as was displayed in New York City recently when their ostensibly good schools were held hostage by a mariachi pagliacci.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @black sea

    a mariachi pagliacci.

    Were George and Władziu Liberace kolache Pagliaccis?

    (Yes. I know it’s kołaczki in Polish. But it rhymes in English.)

  111. Anonymous[310] • Disclaimer says:

    More than anything, this illustrates the sheer, stinking hypocrisy of the University of California system – and its sheer lust for money grubbing and paying staffers *BIG* salaries, just like big business does, from the hard won fees of children.

    Oh! Plenty of Asian students are just fine and dandy! – just as long as they pony up the cash and let us drink from the Horn of Plenty!

    Oh!, what! ‘Minorities’ are being crowded out! Did you know that universities are not about ‘academic excellence’ and curating and furthering knowledge,! No. The purpose is to ensure that minorities get to run society!

    Something went seriously wrong with American universities after WW2. When the idea took hold of letting the entire cohort of middle class births in. After that date they more or less transformed into grade inflating accreditation mills – with staff on a big retainer for issuing those tickets, and, oh, hotbeds of entitled silliness.

  112. vhrm says:
    @jon
    @allensheep

    Here is the scoring system for the Diversity Statement:

    http://ofew.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/rubric_to_assess_candidate_contributions_to_diversity_equity_and_inclusion.pdf

    Replies: @vhrm, @James N. Kennett

    That is chilling to read.

    You have to really demonstrate your love for Big Brother in detail and your track record of struggle against the man.

    From an implementation point of view it’s not a bad set of criteria, but it could so easily come out of the Cultural Revolution or something during the Inquisition…

    • Agree: bomag
  113. How hard could it be to invent a valid test on which blacks and Hispanics score as well as Asians?

    You could start by having the tested wield knives. Just not Ginsus.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Reg Cæsar


    How hard could it be to invent a valid test on which blacks and Hispanics score as well as Asians?
     
    A test of 2 choices only: basketball skills or lawn mowing skills.
  114. @anon
    @anon

    They have all been 100% white & American for nearly a Century

    All of those uni's have students from China and the Middle East. Every one of them. Such students are cash cows, and highly prized. Even a degree from Idaho or Iowa or South Dakota State is worth more prestige points. Word gets back to the home country.

    One of the big questions to be determined later this year: how many foreign, cash paying, students will return to US universities? A few? Some? Many? Most? It's gonna make a difference, because even with a state appropriation and Pell grants and Federal loans, that sweet tuition cash matters.

    The smaller private schools may fail if they can't get foreign cash.

    Replies: @education realist

    @lot

    “What share of white 20 year olds are at top colleges now versus 1980? ”

    You really should look up this data before you make a jackass of yourself.

    I can’t grasp the anons, but the anon who wonders why middle America unis “overwhelmingly white” aren’t already doing well. The other anon said correctly that the middle American unis are not overwhelmingly white, and are collecting money from Chinese students. However, what *I* said, and the first anon somehow missed, is that those universities should restrict admission to students with 600 per test or higher, which they don’t do now, so the first anon’s question is absurd.

    @morton’s toes:

    California universities have ended all remedial classes. I wrote about it here.

    I didn’t say random topics. Kid can choose the topic. You want to reward actual smart people without test prep, that’s how you do it.

    @someguy:

    As Steve says, and I mentioned somewhere (having this convo in two places), the 9os is when there was a huge Asian influx and the rise of Asian test prep began. (first company I know of began in 1987, I think). The test prep companies began studying the test, paying people to take it, building the curriculum, and creating test prep classes four or five times as long.

    • Agree: Alice
    • Troll: Lot
  115. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon7

    "Asian students are four points ahead of whites in math, but are sixty points ahead in verbal."

    Other way around?

    Replies: @Anon7

    Sorry about that.

    I asked my son who the smartest math students in grad school are, and he said Asians. Among the Asians, he says the Chinese are the smartest. If you ask him why that is, he shrugs and says their N is bigger, 1.4 billion Chinese vs. 0.33 billion Americans.

    And they send the cream of their crop here. There are only just so many spots at the top. Game over.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Anon7

    Love the use of an anecdote as solid evidence.

    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/engineering

    Favourite coping mechanisms by most commenter here: they only send their best here, they don’t do well later in life, they can’t apply that knowledge to real world advancements.

    Replies: @Charon, @Anon7

    , @PiltdownMan
    @Anon7

    Somewhat OT:

    Here's an article from yesterday's Washington Post about a woman mathematician which, very unusually for these times, doesn't go on and on about the fact that she is a woman, and instead, focuses on her accomplishment.


    Graduate student untangles nature of Conway knot

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/graduate-student-untangles-nature-of-conway-knot/2020/05/22/9a38bebe-9ace-11ea-ac72-3841fcc9b35f_story.html

     

    PS: It also provides a to another, slightly more detailed (and similarly dispassionate) article in Quanta.

    https://www.quantamagazine.org/graduate-student-solves-decades-old-conway-knot-problem-20200519

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Lin
    @Anon7


    And they send the cream of their crop here.
     
    Any stats on how creamy are the Chinese students went to US universities?

    In 2015,"..China’s prestigious Tsinghua University has bested the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to become the top school in the world for engineering research.."

    https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/10/08/chinese-university-tops-mit-in-engineering-rankings/

    Replies: @Anon7

  116. @Arthur Biggs
    Is the increase in Asian SAT scores more from newer immigrants (1st or 2nd generation) or is the increase the same for more established Asians? If it's mainly from the newer immigrants it could be either we are getting the cream of the Asian crop or they are more likely to see cheating as acceptable way to get ahead and they don't apply the same moral standards as whites (Christians) do. If the SAT score increase is also from Asians who have been culturally absorbed into the US, then maybe they do have some cognitive advantage over whites.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    If it’s mainly from the newer immigrants it could be either we are getting the cream of the Asian crop…

    Bloody hell, it took 84 comments for someone to bring this point up? Is everybody’s Ctrl-F “immi” button not working?

    How much of this is mere selection bias? Are we drawing from the top of China and Korea like we are drawing from the bottom of Latin America?

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Reg Cæsar

    Linus Torvalds was not Chinese, btw.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @anon

    , @education realist
    @Reg Cæsar

    I saw the question. There's not really enough data to answer about what third and fourth gen Asian Americans are doing except the Japanese, and they've fallen off.

    But I kind of figured--perhaps wrongly--that everyone would realize how extremely odd it was that .5 Asian immigrants would ace a reading test. Maybe you just need to see dozens and dozens of kids with incredibly weak writing, shaky verbal skills, and an 800 SAT reading to realize why selection bias doesn't work as an explanation.

  117. Are the Asians genetically superior, culturally superior, or are they cheating more?

    Those aren’t the only choices. For example, there are already 100+ comments and no one has mentioned the fact that today’s “Asians” in America aren’t the same Asians from decades ago. The composition of Asians in America today is vastly different from that of yesteryears.

    In 1940, Indians were 1% of Asians in America. In 1980, they were 10%. Now, they are more than 20% of Asians in America and growing faster than any other Asian group (some, such as Koreans, have shrunk). Moreover, the Indian immigration to the U.S. is extremely selective in terms of education attainment. For example, about half of Korean immigrants in America have college degrees (the corresponding number is 55% in South Korea, so the selection is mildly negative). Among Indian immigrants in America, over 70% do (the percentage in India is about 15%) and a staggering 40% have graduate degrees.

    Indeed, look at foreign medical doctors in America. Today, only about 2% of them is Korean and another 2% is from China. More than 20% of all foreign medical doctors in the U.S. now hail from India.

    For that matter, what was the best known test prep center in the past? Kumon (which began in Osaka, Japan). What’s the best known test prep center today? Khan Academy (started by a man whose father is from Bangladesh and whose mother is from India).

  118. just got it across after the 5th time, btw

  119. @Reg Cæsar
    @Arthur Biggs


    If it’s mainly from the newer immigrants it could be either we are getting the cream of the Asian crop...

     

    Bloody hell, it took 84 comments for someone to bring this point up? Is everybody's Ctrl-F "immi" button not working?

    How much of this is mere selection bias? Are we drawing from the top of China and Korea like we are drawing from the bottom of Latin America?

    Replies: @Lagertha, @education realist

    Linus Torvalds was not Chinese, btw.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Lagertha


    Linus Torvalds was not Chinese, btw.
     
    "Was not"? Is he now?

    I thought he's a Moomintroll brought to life.

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Lagertha

    , @anon
    @Lagertha

    Linus Torvalds was not Chinese, btw.

    He's not in charge of LINUX anymore, either, thanks to the SJW's.
    I doubt the Han Chinese allow anything retarded special snowflake "Trust & Safety Committee" to be in charge of their software, either. That's strictly for 白左

    Replies: @Lagertha

  120. @anon
    @education realist


    Unis in Iowa, Idaho, Georgia, Dakotas, all the central states
     
    They have all been 100% white & American for nearly a Century. How well known have they become compared to the coastal Unis?

    Replies: @Lagertha, @anon, @Twinkie

    Unis in Iowa

    University of Iowa now has a huge foreign Chinese student contingent, which has created some tension in Iowa City:

    https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2015/07/us/culture-clash-american-story/

    The rise of Chinese students is most pronounced in the Midwest, with Big Ten universities heavily recruiting students within China over the last decade. Among the top 20 American universities with the highest Chinese student populations, nine are from the Big Ten, according to The Brookings Institution.

    The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign leads the way with 10,000 international students, including about 4,900 from China. Purdue is not far behind with 9,000 international students, including 4,600 Chinese. At both universities, international students make up nearly one-quarter of the entire student body.

    Michigan State has the highest population of Chinese students in the nation, with more than 5,300. Ohio State, Indiana, Minnesota and Michigan have seen an explosion in their Chinese student bodies: Each school has more than 3,000 Chinese students.

    At Iowa, the number of Chinese students outnumbers the combined African-American and Latino student population.

    The influx of Chinese students began about eight years ago, the result of America’s great recession and China’s burgeoning middle class. American universities were in crisis mode with their budgets getting slashed. Administrators needed a viable financial alternative.

    “Those are the two forces that are bringing about this huge growth of foreign students into the United States,” says Neil G. Ruiz, a senior policy analyst and associate fellow for the Brookings Institution. “The impact is great. It helps the universities in the short run get the tuition and the students they need in terms of revenue.”

    • Thanks: bomag
    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Twinkie

    These aren't the mentally brightest or hardest working China has, anymore than H1B visa-wallahs bring skills that companies cannot (just cannot, we tell you!) manage to find native talent in the US. And universities, like Big Tech, have the political heft to have their self-serving version of reality made law.

    That's why their affluent parents are sending them to the US. They know they don't stand a chance on the gaokao against the most brilliant people the country has to offer. This is particularly true when they going up against the brilliant (and often slightly autistic-the gaokao suits that particular mental profile well) but poor kids who pop up in backwater China with surprising if relative frequency to lower IQ parents, and whose parents can't even begin to afford American college tuition fees. Their only choice is to invest everything they've got into the domestic game. Middle class parents have alternatives if their kid visibly does not stand a chance: and if you have an alternative in life, for most people, you are already at an innate disadvantage against somebody with only one path forward.

    (As you probably already know, this can place intense pressure on the kid who has all the family's hopes staked on him. Some of China's most famous rebels were failed examination candidates who had breakdowns: Li Zicheng, Hong Xiuquan, etc.)

    If UMC Chinese parents early that their kids are not going to be the types who crush the admissions exam, whether in terms of native intellect, work ethic, or both have an easy out: the US. And the public universities loooove people who pay full-on, out of state tuition, even if they don't speak English well or bring more serious negatives. For the rich, it can often start even younger. There are plenty of towns in California where Chinese millionaires buy houses to deposit their teenager in so they can graduate from an American high school. The effect that this has on local rental prices need not be elaborated.

    , @Anonymous
    @Twinkie

    When I was going to Iowa State in the mid 80's, the largest group of international students (400+) were from Malaysia. They were mostly Muslim and lived off campus. The biggest problem then was many landlords didn't want to rent to them because their group prayers freaked out the neighbors. I'm guessing not too many of them come here anymore after 9/11. Good riddance.

    Hopefully this pandemic will keep most of these international students home, for good.

    Trump needs to seize this opportunity of high unemployment in the US and cancel the OPT and H1B visas. International enrollment in our colleges will drop like a rock. That's the main reason they're here, not for the diploma but for the green card. In turn, colleges will have no choice but to cut all the wasteful progressive programs like the dean of diversity, minority support, LBGTQ center, climate change center etc., i.e. all the progressive lunacy that's been driving up tuition, putting an end to the left wing takeover of our campuses. Kill two birds with one stone. Do it Trump!

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Fred C Dobbs

  121. @Charon
    @Carol

    Hardly any schools use interviews nowadays--too labor-intensive, not to mention subjective. Those that do declare specifically that they are informational for the student and not intended as admissions tests. There are a few exceptions, mostly specialty programs.

    From the article:


    Proponents of a change say it is fairer to judge students by other measures, such as teacher recommendations.
     
    Offhand it's hard to think of a metric which might be less fair than teacher recommendations. Maybe skin color?

    Replies: @Alden

    Teacher recommendations sounds very corrupt third world. Just bribe the teachers.

    Someone should tell the Teachers Union that they could be sued if a student they wrote a recommendation for didn’t get into a college.

    That’s why employers don’t write references any more except for “ So and so worked as a whatever from March 2010 to March 2020”

    White parents can do one of two things to ensure acceptance and scholarships

    1 Be sure to check the African American box
    2 Change your child’s last name to a common Hispanic one at age 4.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Alden

    3 Give $5 million to the school

  122. @Reg Cæsar
    @Arthur Biggs


    If it’s mainly from the newer immigrants it could be either we are getting the cream of the Asian crop...

     

    Bloody hell, it took 84 comments for someone to bring this point up? Is everybody's Ctrl-F "immi" button not working?

    How much of this is mere selection bias? Are we drawing from the top of China and Korea like we are drawing from the bottom of Latin America?

    Replies: @Lagertha, @education realist

    I saw the question. There’s not really enough data to answer about what third and fourth gen Asian Americans are doing except the Japanese, and they’ve fallen off.

    But I kind of figured–perhaps wrongly–that everyone would realize how extremely odd it was that .5 Asian immigrants would ace a reading test. Maybe you just need to see dozens and dozens of kids with incredibly weak writing, shaky verbal skills, and an 800 SAT reading to realize why selection bias doesn’t work as an explanation.

  123. @education realist
    The thing is, the UC system has been trying to manipulate the SAT for years to make the test less g-dependent. That did two things, at different times.

    First, by removing all the vocabulary (first antonyms, then analogies,) and the quantitative comparisons and other g-loaded math questions that weren't necessarily advanced, but were difficult.

    Then, by *increasing* the years of math needed to do well on the test.

    So an easier verbal section and a math section that rewards swotting, not brains.

    Couple that with something that Americans, regardless of race, really can't comprehend, which is the hours and hours and hours and hours that otherwise ordinary immigrant Asian kids put into the SAT.

    UC spent 15 years thinking it was a black/white world, and now they have too many Asians.

    I mean, leave aside cheating, which seems to be rampant overseas and, given the shocking ease that random rich folks had in bringing in proxies into the testing room, it may be here as well.

    But I don't think that they'll be able to stay the "No test" course and as you point out, Steve, they're already saying they'll develop their own test, which will have all the same issues.

    Not sure where it goes from here, except I can't seriously see the top UCs maintaining their ranking if all become UC Riverside.

    I've seen some mention of them using the CA state test, the SBAC. That only has four scores. But even 4 scores creates a huge achievement gap.

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @Some Guy, @Gimeiyo, @Bumpkin, @Happy tapir

    Couple that with something that Americans, regardless of race, really can’t comprehend, which is the hours and hours and hours and hours that otherwise ordinary immigrant Asian kids put into the SAT.

    I think you’re confusing cram school with SAT prep. Cram school isn’t exclusively focused on SAT prep — it’s also just about racking up good grades at school in general by getting ahead of the curriculum. If university admissions were based 100% on test scores, yeah, it probably would be pretty much test focused. But the people who run these things aren’t stupid — they know grades factor in too.

    As a result, although Asian American schoolchildren do some test prep, they don’t need as much test-specific prep. Blacks/Hispanics apparently do more than Whites/Asians.

    http://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/salon/files/2011/11/Racial_differences_SFJ_89_2_Alon-final.pdf

    Back when vocabulary was a big part of the test (i.e. when I was young) I think English vocab was the biggest focus of Asian test prep, since a lot of Asians grow up in households where the parents spoke more limited/less fluent English. Probably less of an issue now, though, since more Asians are second or third generation and the test itself deemphasizes vocabulary.

    • Replies: @education realist
    @Gimeiyo

    I work at an SAT academy, and I'm not confused at all. SAT prep in Asian schools is at *minimum* five hours a day, four days a week, with the 5th day being a test. For 8 weeks. that's on top of classes they take in the math class they'll be taking the next year, where they go through the whole book in advance, often taking the tests that the math teacher they'll have next year uses.

    Replies: @vhrm, @stillCARealist, @Alden

  124. @JimB
    I can explain rising Asian SAT scores in two words: Khan Academy

    Replies: @education realist

    Yeah, no. Khan Academy is mostly invented for white folks. Asians *pay* for test prep.

    In high school life, Khan is basically used at home to look up a subject if the kid either didn’t understand or didn’t care what the teacher said.

    Moreover, Khan Academy was invented in 2008,when the rise began back in the mid-90s.

  125. President Biden, old China Joe, and VP Stacey Abrams, will make sure every university is mostly Chinese with some Blacks. No Whites need apply.The

    UC can propose what it likes. But California belongs to China now. Gwailos better know their place. Bow to their masters.

    If course, China now has a substantial African population. Who are predictably keeping it real!

    • Troll: 128
    • Replies: @Neoconned
    @Whiskey

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/05/23/business/omegaverse-erotica-copyright.amp.html

    Whiskey when you get some spare time read this.....its friggen hilarious....

    Bimbos are war-fighting in federal court over werewolf erotic fanfiction....

  126. @Lot
    @education realist

    “ The influx of Asians, coupled with AA and the ever increasing legacy admits, has made top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.”

    What share of white 20 year olds are at top colleges now versus 1980? I doubt it is much different. The colleges are mostly the same size to slightly larger, while the number of white 20 year olds is much lower. At the same time, more colleges are now highly selective and prestigious compared to 1980 (NYU, GW, UCI, UNC, UT Austin). So your factual premise isn’t right.

    Moreover, “non-rich whites” rarely going to top colleges has always been the case, and several generations of assortive mating has drained a fair amount of the talent from the white middle and working class.

    Chinese and Korean Americans are 1.9% of the US population and don’t have many kids. There are just too few of them to make “ top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.” And the ones coming from abroad aren’t displacing anyone, they are more than paying their own way and leading to expansion of colleges who can attract them. I don’t think that’s a good thing since higher ed is bloated and corrupting, but it also isn’t displacing anyone.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alden, @Charon, @GU, @Anonymous

    check university websites and you’ll see the percentage of Asians.

  127. @Lagertha
    @Reg Cæsar

    Linus Torvalds was not Chinese, btw.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @anon

    Linus Torvalds was not Chinese, btw.

    “Was not”? Is he now?

    I thought he’s a Moomintroll brought to life.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Reg Cæsar

    I so want him to be Muumipeikko.

    , @Lagertha
    @Reg Cæsar

    I believe in Muumi.

    Replies: @Lagertha

  128. @J.Ross
    @Anon

    White people are not allowed to talk about this stuff openly but they can vote with their choice of schools and school policy; also some Jews can act as "white people who are allowed to speak," as was displayed in New York City recently when their ostensibly good schools were held hostage by a mariachi pagliacci.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @black sea

    “white people who are allowed to speak,”

    This is a great line, by the way.

  129. @Stephen Dodge
    @Wilkey

    I am in a really good mood tonight (big successes last week in real world efforts) so take what I am gonna say with a grain of salt.

    WE ALL KNOW how Canadians like to amuse themselves with what they think is a subtle form of humor, we all know Mexicans don't expect their kids to do a damn thing about the fact that most of their fellow Mexicans are, unfortunately, helots who have to work extremely difficult jobs just to get by, and we all know that people from Jamaica are pretty much what they are.

    Look, it does not matter, life in North America - Canada, America, Mexico, and off the coast, places like Jamaica, is pretty sweet compared to life in many other parts of the world. ALMOST NOBODY UNDERSTANDS that Mexicans don't care AT ALL about their academic failures and their failures to keep their grandmas from living and dying in poverty, they all (well, most of them, anyway) think they are THE BEST OF THE BEST because they live their lives as if they were the stars of some telenovela, even the fat Mexican women consider themselves precious (they are right) and the hardworking helots love themselves, because they pay for their kid's food, even if they let grandma almost starve to death because they are simply not concerned about working hard to make life better for everyone, the way people in other countries do. THEY ALL THINK THEY ARE HEROES. They aren't, but they think they are.

    Now think of life in some dorm in some college that is the best college in its province of China, I GUARANTEE YOU that most people there do not think all that much of themselves, and they work hard,

    now think of how Jamaicans think of themselves. I think there is no lack of self-esteem there.

    Canadians like to pride themselves on their dry humor, but there are not a lot of them, and they have access to an awful lot of beautiful land.

    Think about it - Mexicans love themselves whether or not they get good test scores and whether or not they have any idea about how to keep their cities sanitary, Canadians straight up love themselves as the best people on the planet, and Jamaicans have no lack of self-esteem.

    I leave the question of what the citizens of the United States think about "test scores" as an exercise for the reader.

    Replies: @TheMassageIsTheMedium, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Anonymous

    Jamal, can you please call a taxi for Mr. Biden? Oh, and Destiny, you can just go ahead and charge those dances to the house, I’ll work it all out with you tomorrow.

  130. MC says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @SafeNow

    In Fargo, why is Marge’s encounter at the Radisson buffet relevant to the plot of the movie?

    Why is it?

    Replies: @MC, @J

    Roger Ebert’s Answer:

    “[I]t separates her two crucial meetings with the suspect Jerry Lundegaard (William H. Macy). She interviews Jerry almost as an afterthought at the car dealership (where she went looking for Shep Proudfoot). Then she has dinner with her old friend Mike. The next morning, she learns in a phone call that everything he told her was a fabrication. Then we see her looking thoughtful in her squad car. Then she returns to the dealership to ask Jerry more questions–and this time he cracks and flees the interview. Being deceived by the school friend nudged her to replay her original interview with Jerry. Imagine the Lundegaard interview as one unbroken scene, and you can see how much less effective it would have been. The delay between the scenes also allows us to imagine Lundegaard marinating in his guilt and fear, setting up his extreme nervousness when she returns.”

    https://www.rogerebert.com/answer-man/movie-answer-man-06011997

  131. @Kratoklastes
    By eyeball it looks like the median SAT for the best demographic is about 1225 (on a 1600 scale); that's worse than the 75th percentile (of SAT test-takers).

    It's ~200 points shy of the bottom quartile entry SAT at a decent university - e.g., Brown, where the bottom quartile is 1420 (1420 is also the mean SAT for Boston U, which at #98 is the bottom US university in the Global100).

    At #57 (just above my alma mater) Brown is near the top of the bottom half of the Global Top100. Cornell is #8, and also has a bottom quartile cutoff of 1420.

    Anyhow... quality seems to be maintained until the mid-50s, then drops off reasonably quickly towards the bottom of the top 100: scores that were ~1.5σ below the mean at #57 are the mean at #98.


    I've deliberately excluded MIT or Caltech (genuinely élite élite, where the 25th percentile is over 1500) or the Eastern Ivies (where legacy is more important and - along with AA - fucks up merit lists).

    There must be soooo many disappointed Tiger Mums... I bet they secretly wish their kids were half-black, to get Yale and Harvard Wokemon points.

    Replies: @sb, @Slimer

    Monash ?

  132. @Steve Sailer
    @SafeNow

    In Fargo, why is Marge’s encounter at the Radisson buffet relevant to the plot of the movie?

    Why is it?

    Replies: @MC, @J

    Marge discovers that Mike is crazy. That insight (i.e. people has non-obvious mental problems) is thematically relevant.

  133. @Kratoklastes
    By eyeball it looks like the median SAT for the best demographic is about 1225 (on a 1600 scale); that's worse than the 75th percentile (of SAT test-takers).

    It's ~200 points shy of the bottom quartile entry SAT at a decent university - e.g., Brown, where the bottom quartile is 1420 (1420 is also the mean SAT for Boston U, which at #98 is the bottom US university in the Global100).

    At #57 (just above my alma mater) Brown is near the top of the bottom half of the Global Top100. Cornell is #8, and also has a bottom quartile cutoff of 1420.

    Anyhow... quality seems to be maintained until the mid-50s, then drops off reasonably quickly towards the bottom of the top 100: scores that were ~1.5σ below the mean at #57 are the mean at #98.


    I've deliberately excluded MIT or Caltech (genuinely élite élite, where the 25th percentile is over 1500) or the Eastern Ivies (where legacy is more important and - along with AA - fucks up merit lists).

    There must be soooo many disappointed Tiger Mums... I bet they secretly wish their kids were half-black, to get Yale and Harvard Wokemon points.

    Replies: @sb, @Slimer

    There must be soooo many disappointed Tiger Mums… I bet they secretly wish their kids were half-black, to get Yale and Harvard Wokemon points.

    Hmmm, next time I hear “no rike a brack” I’ll mention these Wokemon points.

    Doubt it’ll work though. People want to attend Harvard and Yale because they’re the pinnacle of white prestige, and having too many black or even half-black faces on campus would taint their reputation. This would be true even if blacks were stellar students.There’s an article somewhere about foolish Africans being lured into Chinese universities with promises of academic scholarships, only to see them given instead to lower performing white students. So Asians by and large are probably unbothered by universities scrapping the SAT requirement, as they want the best schools to remain somewhat white.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Slimer

    People want to attend Harvard and Yale because they’re the pinnacle of white globalhomo prestige,

    Fixed.

    Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

  134. @Anonymous
    What evidence is there for how Jewish scores would plot on the graph in OP? Would the line be above or below the Asian one and similarly in decline as the others? I would be surprised if it would top the huge 100-point Asian lead, and yet American Jewish achievement per capita has been historically astronomical

    Replies: @J.Ross, @128, @Bardon Kaldian

    How many East Asian engineers are working for BMW, Audi, Porsche, or Ferrari? F1 is the pinnacle of motor sports and I do not recall seeing many East Asians among the technical personnel.

    • Replies: @eastkekiisawhiteguy
    @128

    mazda lemans, honda formula one, subaru rally, toyota rally , mitsubishi rally , In my opinion rally racing is the best motor sports. Japan makes the best cornering cars been like this since the nineties , the nissan gtr is an incredible car even though its heavy, it corners ferociously with all kinds of technology to help it corner that well

    Replies: @Jim Christian

  135. wren says:

    What portion of the Asian Americans were born and raised American?

    I’m increasingly getting the vibe from Xi that all your base are belong to us, and have heard that some overseas Chinese reflect this on campus now, but have no personal experience with it.

    YouTube just provided me with this gem: no less than the first lady of China!

    • Replies: @SOL
    @wren

    Mainland students are certainly causing problems for HK students supporting the protests in HK.

  136. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:

    If there’s any force that may be pushing for SAT replacement, it may not be ‘running out of white kids.’

    They’re running out of Jews. That’s the crux of the problem. Jews, historically, scored well. However, the most recent generation of Jews is more interbred with plain old whites than ever, and their IQs are getting dumber. They’re developed a love of playing video games instead of reading. They’re not competing with Asians as a group so well anymore on standardized tests. Do you remember a while back it was discovered that Jews with weak test scores were still getting into places like Harvard in disproportionately large numbers?

    This is a problem because Jews are a LOT wealthier, on average, than Asians. They can pay full tuition, and they’re more likely to donate to the college as alumni than Asians (Asians are notorious tightwads about this, and this really matters to college administrators). Jews are also more interconnected when it comes to getting grants than Asians are.

    There’s another factor. US colleges are stuffed with Jews who control administrative positions, stuffed with Jewish profs who have a political agenda they want to push in the classroom, and they really doesn’t want to be replaced by Asians. They’ll lose their hold over America’s education if they’re replaced by Asians. Asians also have a habit of not listening to or believing everything Jews tell them.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Anon

    I agree with a lot of this, but wouldn't chalk it up to genetics.

    Ruling classes getting lazy and getting deposed by more energetic newcomers is one of the oldest stories in history.

  137. @Anon7
    @Steve Sailer

    Sorry about that.

    I asked my son who the smartest math students in grad school are, and he said Asians. Among the Asians, he says the Chinese are the smartest. If you ask him why that is, he shrugs and says their N is bigger, 1.4 billion Chinese vs. 0.33 billion Americans.

    And they send the cream of their crop here. There are only just so many spots at the top. Game over.

    Replies: @Anon, @PiltdownMan, @Lin

    Love the use of an anecdote as solid evidence.

    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/engineering

    Favourite coping mechanisms by most commenter here: they only send their best here, they don’t do well later in life, they can’t apply that knowledge to real world advancements.

    • Replies: @Charon
    @Anon

    You only think they're the best "global colleges" because you haven't tried switching the Rs and Ls yet.

    , @Anon7
    @Anon

    Love the use of an anecdote as solid evidence.

    I know, right? OTOH, the world of the top applied math graduate schools in the world is not a big universe, and they're all here (for now), except for Oxford and Cambridge. And (until recently) they all participated in the same conferences and collaborated on papers, etc.

    But yeah, just an anecdote of what it looks like from the viewpoint of a peon grad student. I wonder what it looks like in other STEM disciplines? Anecdotally.

  138. @allensheep
    @anon

    It's an interesting question with these "diversity statements". I'm a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I'm not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I'd feel some guilt over it.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Jack D, @jon, @Truth, @Hypnotoad666, @SFG, @JerseyJeffersonian, @anonymous, @Pericles

    It’s not under oath. Think of it as a creative writing assignment, in which you are being tested in your ability to write a fictional character sketch of the ultimate self-loathing, white academic, who merely wishes to be a subservient “ally” to all the “marginalized people” who justifiably hate you.

    Just remember, objectivity and truth are white supremacists values. And don’t forget to mention Emmett Till.

    Alternatively, you could get a real job.

  139. @Rob
    @Carol

    MCAT already got nerfed. The new scoring scale is silly, from 118 to 132 for each of 4 sections, means set to 125. So the overall score is 472 to 528. The goal must be to obscure the scores for less intelligent minorities. According to Kaptest.com:


    The AAMC stresses that this scale emphasizes the importance of the central portion of the score distribution, where most students score (around 125 per section, or 500 total), rather than putting an undue focus on the high end of the scale.
     
    So they’re basically admitting that they’re providing cover for schools to admit minorities who nearly reach. The MCAT was scored for three sections, physical science, biological science, and verbal reasoning each from 1 or maybe 3 to 15. I don’t think anyone ever got a 45, but I could be wrong.

    Along with 2 essays assigned a combined letter grade. The top essay score was a T. I got a 36S, and only 2.3% did better, maybe 2% got a 36. Once you knew the material, it was basically an IQ test. I’m pretty sure the essays were intended to sniff out WrongThink. One of my essays was something like ‘when should an oppressed group be expected to advocate for themselves, and when is it appropriate for others to do so. I picked early women’s rights warriors and the civil rights movement and sounded exactly like a liberal, but an analytical one.

    New MCAT’s sections are “Biological and Biochemical Foundations of Living Systems,” Chemical and Physical Foundations of Biological Systems,” Psychological, Social, and Biological Foundations of Behavior,” and “ Critical Analysis and Reasoning Skills.” There should be biochem on the test, though if you learned organic chemistry, you’ll learn biochem fine. Hell, just about every reaction is catalyzed, so you don’t even have to decide which groups are more reactive, what temperature to run the reaction, what solvent to use...I can see foundations of behavior, but unless the word “heritability” shows up, it probably doesn’t touch on the real bases of behavior.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Unladen Swallow

    One of my essays was something like ‘when should an oppressed group be expected to advocate for themselves, and when is it appropriate for others to do so.

    When they are in the wrong, no one should advocate for them. When they are in the right, everyone should. But I’m guessing that’s not the answer they were looking for.

  140. @Whiskey
    President Biden, old China Joe, and VP Stacey Abrams, will make sure every university is mostly Chinese with some Blacks. No Whites need apply.The

    UC can propose what it likes. But California belongs to China now. Gwailos better know their place. Bow to their masters.

    If course, China now has a substantial African population. Who are predictably keeping it real!

    Replies: @Neoconned

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/05/23/business/omegaverse-erotica-copyright.amp.html

    Whiskey when you get some spare time read this…..its friggen hilarious….

    Bimbos are war-fighting in federal court over werewolf erotic fanfiction….

  141. @Steve Sailer
    Henry Harpending's view was that the pre-1995 SAT Verbal section was one of the best IQ tests ever due to its huge high end -- Only a few dozen kids per year got a perfect 800 on the Verbal section. In 1987, for example, only 9 students in America got perfect 1600s.

    But the math test back then topped out at a more moderate level. I once heard somebody at Rice U. say, "Yeah, sure I got an 800 on math, but I'm not a real 800 like Joe is."

    Replies: @education realist, @James Speaks, @Fred C Dobbs

    My experience with both the SAT and GRE before 1982 was that the quantitive part measured how perfectly you could do tenth grade math.

    • Replies: @International Jew
    @James Speaks

    I took the GRE in 1980 and it had something called "logical reasoning" which was quite hard and genuinely interesting. I spent some fun evenings in the dorms going over practice problems with a few friends.
    Also, the top score on each test was 900, when 800 was already pretty far out on the tail.

    Having a really deep high end is actually not that necessary on the GRE because anyone smart enough to score really really high will have already come to the attention of a professor who's well enough connected to place him into a top graduate institution.

    Replies: @Faraday's Bobcat

  142. @Jim Doe
    These do not look like the right numbers and I don't know where you got them from

    As I pointed out in February, the University of California faculty task force found that the r of GPA-only forecasting models was only 0.26 but the r of SAT-only forecasting models was 0.44. That’s pretty huge.
     
    As from your own link you in the table GPA All only R/slope=0.39, R^2=0.16 SAT only R/slope=0.46, R^2=0.21
    and your description is

    The SAT explains 21% of the variance in freshman grades at U of California campuses, compared to only 16% for high school grade point averages.
     

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Steve Sailer

    thanks, I screwed up.

  143. @Hemid
    You've always missed something vital on this question, Steve. I think we all have.

    I was a 1600-scoring Jew in the early '90s and still, probably because my extracurriculars weren't ruling-class-coded enough—I was, vulgarly, a professional rock musician by the time I applied for college—I needed a world-famous friend of my father's, an alumnus who'd won three Pulitzers, to vouch for me so I'd be allowed into Cornell. At 16-fucking-hundred, imputed IQ 168, I was a special, exceptional, ethno-/nepoto-favoritism "admit."

    American Asians aren't beating us on only test scores. They're winning on other, more important, publicly unspoken criteria, too. I don't know which. Is playing violin instead of guitar really worth so much? Maybe. Maybe because that's what Jews used to do, and Asians imitate previous generations of us, and that's who decides.

    ?

    Replies: @vhrm, @Redneck farmer, @Happy tapir

    Don’t give too much away, but how did your band(s) do?

  144. @Anonymous
    What evidence is there for how Jewish scores would plot on the graph in OP? Would the line be above or below the Asian one and similarly in decline as the others? I would be surprised if it would top the huge 100-point Asian lead, and yet American Jewish achievement per capita has been historically astronomical

    Replies: @J.Ross, @128, @Bardon Kaldian

    I don’t know whether this applies to the topic, yet: I’ve read years ago interview of eminent literary critic & scholar, Harold Bloom of Yale (himself Jewish). He claimed that while Jews had excelled when he was a student, during the 1950s or so, now they’re mostly mediocre because they adopted hedonistic & anti-intellectual culture of the majority. He said his best students were Asian.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Back in the 1970s I hung out a lot with the Beverly Hills HS debate team, who were smart and focused individuals. But, I eventually discovered, much of the rest of BHHS was high ALL the time.

    , @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Bardon Kaldian

    This is one of those topics that is rather ripe for revision: we are now living in the sunset era of the "victors' history" of the twentieth century, and the exit review is just getting started.

    What I mean is, I was never much impressed by the much-insisted-upon "brilliance" of mid twentieth century liberal-arts Jewish intellectual achievements (I'll leave the sciences for those who can speak to that). As a youngster I had to of course read Lionel Trilling and Oscar Handlin and Daniel Bell and Hofstadter and Harold Bloom and all the usual suspects, and I was rather underwhelmed. They struck me as simply being loud and insistent and omnipresent and unrelenting and just plain hogging the microphone; I mean, have you ever tried to actually read the art criticism of say Clement Greenberg? So much of ostensible Jewish-American 'brilliance' is simply the result of relentless log-rolling, nepotism and hype, as well as just being everywhere at once, drowning out the room and sucking all the air out of every open space in sight. Which is not to say that their gentile counterparts were any sort of supernovas: in the great dust-up between Philip Roth and John Updike, I think everyone's wondering "Can't they both lose?"

    It's said that the poet Frank O'Hara was present in a room packed with Beat literary royalty for the first public reading of Allen Ginsberg's "Howl," and as Allen intoned the famous opening line "I saw the best minds of my generation..." Frank scanned the room and said, in a catty stage whisper, "Who's he /talking/ about?"

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    , @Marshal Marlow
    @Bardon Kaldian

    The solution is quite easy: Saturate asian societies with modern western culture and in 30 years they'll be producing hedonistic children just like the west does now.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

  145. Well…I think Steve is right on the money.

  146. @Lot
    @education realist

    “ The influx of Asians, coupled with AA and the ever increasing legacy admits, has made top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.”

    What share of white 20 year olds are at top colleges now versus 1980? I doubt it is much different. The colleges are mostly the same size to slightly larger, while the number of white 20 year olds is much lower. At the same time, more colleges are now highly selective and prestigious compared to 1980 (NYU, GW, UCI, UNC, UT Austin). So your factual premise isn’t right.

    Moreover, “non-rich whites” rarely going to top colleges has always been the case, and several generations of assortive mating has drained a fair amount of the talent from the white middle and working class.

    Chinese and Korean Americans are 1.9% of the US population and don’t have many kids. There are just too few of them to make “ top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.” And the ones coming from abroad aren’t displacing anyone, they are more than paying their own way and leading to expansion of colleges who can attract them. I don’t think that’s a good thing since higher ed is bloated and corrupting, but it also isn’t displacing anyone.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alden, @Charon, @GU, @Anonymous

    There are over 400,000 Chinese students in America’s colleges today, and that’s not even counting a single “Chinese-American”.

  147. @Alice
    @Anon

    There aren't any white middle class kids who can afford to go to the UC anymore anyway, and they certainly can't afford SAT prep. the white kids going were kids of Woke Karens.

    Cost to go to Cal for 1 year: $40k in-state
    https://admissions.berkeley.edu/cost

    Estimated Student Budget 2019-2020
    CA RESIDENT NONRESIDENT*
    Tuition and Fees $14,254 $14,254
    Nonresident supplemental tuition - $29,754
    Student Health Insurance Plan** $3,286 $3,286
    *Room and board $17,220 $17,220
    Food $1,644 $1,644
    Books and supplies $870 $870
    Personal $1,876 $1,876
    Transportation $400 $400
    TOTAL $39,550 $69,304
    *Calculated based on students living in the residence halls.


    That's right, it's 2k a month to live in Unit 2. living in Berkeley is not cheaper.

    UC San Diego: $25k a year if you live at home

    Cost of Attendance Living with Parents On Campus Off Campus
    CA Resident Tuition/Feesa, d, e (View Components) $14,451 $14,451 $14,451
    Housing and Meals $6,579 $14,295 $13,614
    Books and Supplies $1,128 $1,128 $1,128
    Transportation $1,506 $534 $1,104
    Personal Expenses $1,647 $1,479 $1,590
    Estimated CA Resident Cost Totalsb $25,311 $31,887 $31,887

    Replies: @Anon, @Hibernian, @RAZ, @Pericles, @Anonymous

    Back in the day, state schools in CA were almost free, nominally no tuition, but there were small “fees.” Reagan changed that in response to what Berkeley had become, and rightfully so. At Iowa State, my alma mater, I paid $200 a quarter tuition ’72 t0 ’76, $600 annually. If you wanted to work off your room and board, or room only or board only, I forget which, they’d hire you, no questions asked, to work in the dining hall. One guy was fired for continually eating off the plates going into the dishwasher.

  148. @Anon
    OT: Flynn case is getting weirder. Judge Sullivan has just hired a lawyer for himself. Bizarre.

    https://twitter.com/Techno_Fog/status/1264301988856111104?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1264301988856111104&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fmarkets%2Fflynn-judge-outsources-high-profile-lawyer-explain-why-he-wont-dismiss-case

    Replies: @Charon, @Anon

    I’m sitting here praying that the judge’s lawyer will soon find it necessary to hire his own lawyer. Then. The Singularity.

  149. @Anon
    @Anon7

    Love the use of an anecdote as solid evidence.

    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/engineering

    Favourite coping mechanisms by most commenter here: they only send their best here, they don’t do well later in life, they can’t apply that knowledge to real world advancements.

    Replies: @Charon, @Anon7

    You only think they’re the best “global colleges” because you haven’t tried switching the Rs and Ls yet.

  150. SFG says:
    @allensheep
    @anon

    It's an interesting question with these "diversity statements". I'm a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I'm not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I'd feel some guilt over it.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Jack D, @jon, @Truth, @Hypnotoad666, @SFG, @JerseyJeffersonian, @anonymous, @Pericles

    Taqiyya, as they say.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

    I don’t have the schmooze or the skill, but if you have the brains to begin a long march through the institutions, this could be the only way to reverse the damage done to the universities.

    Don’t feel bad about lying. The Marxists did!

  151. @Anon
    If there's any force that may be pushing for SAT replacement, it may not be 'running out of white kids.'

    They're running out of Jews. That's the crux of the problem. Jews, historically, scored well. However, the most recent generation of Jews is more interbred with plain old whites than ever, and their IQs are getting dumber. They're developed a love of playing video games instead of reading. They're not competing with Asians as a group so well anymore on standardized tests. Do you remember a while back it was discovered that Jews with weak test scores were still getting into places like Harvard in disproportionately large numbers?

    This is a problem because Jews are a LOT wealthier, on average, than Asians. They can pay full tuition, and they're more likely to donate to the college as alumni than Asians (Asians are notorious tightwads about this, and this really matters to college administrators). Jews are also more interconnected when it comes to getting grants than Asians are.

    There's another factor. US colleges are stuffed with Jews who control administrative positions, stuffed with Jewish profs who have a political agenda they want to push in the classroom, and they really doesn't want to be replaced by Asians. They'll lose their hold over America's education if they're replaced by Asians. Asians also have a habit of not listening to or believing everything Jews tell them.

    Replies: @SFG

    I agree with a lot of this, but wouldn’t chalk it up to genetics.

    Ruling classes getting lazy and getting deposed by more energetic newcomers is one of the oldest stories in history.

  152. @Carol
    Grades are useless too, right? I saw that at /Teachers. How colleges are supposed to evaluate applicants is beyond me. Better ace that interview!

    Is the MCAT next?

    Replies: @Rob, @Charon, @Chunkachunk, @cthulhu

    It’s already hit medicine. Not the MCAT but the first round of medical board exams that determines which specialty you will be: neurosurgeon or family medicine, etc. Also if you will be at Mt Sinai in NYC or trucking it in rural North Dakota between hospitals hundreds of miles apart.

    The US Medical Licensing Exam (USMLE) decided to switch to pass/fail for probably similar reasons.

    There was a feeling that people were studying for the exam and rote memorization which would lead to good test takers but doctors unprepared for a future that requires more creativity and innovation. And board prep companies making a racket off this, undermining the medical schools themselves.

    More explosive is the racial side. While racial disparities can be controlled to a certain extant by medical school interviews and affirmative action at the hospital residency level, it would be impossible to defend in the face clear statistical evidence of disparities in medical knowledge via the board exam. The lawyers could find out if the diversity doc just barely passed or aced boards, unless it was P/F. The fact that international schools filled with Asians could take the exam and embarrass the admission board selected American med school graduates undercut the argument that med schools select for medical talent and knowledge. P/F makes it easier to ignore low prestige and international medical school graduates by their grades being merely Pass, and not a significant deviation above the politically connected Harvard Med school grad who also now just gets a Pass.

    Pass -Fail is the new trend in medicine that allows for claiming a token of merit but all the political advantages and corruption that cannot develop a resolved picture of merit by knowledge, but only via the subjective assessments of senior physicians, administrators, and the powers that be.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Chunkachunk


    There was a feeling that people were studying for the exam and rote memorization which would lead to good test takers but doctors unprepared for a future that requires more creativity and innovation.
     
    Today's WSJ has an article on why coronavirus death rates are so low in HK and Singapore (0.4% and 0.1% respectively). They attribute it to the following 3 factors:
    1) Widespread testing which means a more accurate measure of the denominator.
    2) Aggressive quarantine.
    3) Early treatment. This is the most important of all. CDC stupidly tells our infected to stay home and try to tough it out, do not go to the hospital until they are blue in the face and can't breath. By then it is too late, no drug can help them. They have to go on the ventilator, overwhelm the hospitals and have also infected family members.

    Per the article, in HK and Singapore, doctors experimented and quickly zeroed in on three drugs administered to patients with mild to moderate cases of Covid-19: interferon beta-1b, which was developed to treat multiple sclerosis; ribavirin, which is used in the treatment of hepatitis C; and lopinavir-ritonavir, also known by its brand name, Kaletra. They found that the patients healed faster and were less contagious than a control group treated with lopinavir–ritonavir alone. The regimen has become the standard therapy in Hong Kong. Singapore uses the same treatment.

    Similarly, hydroxycholorquine and the antibiotic and zinc combination also need to be used early to be successful. A doctor wrote to the WSJ about it back in March. Yet CDC still has not updated its guideline and our doctors are still floundering. Over 1,000 are still dying per day. More will probably die as states reopen.

    American doctors aren't looking so hot these days. The Asian "rote memorization", "uncreative" doctors are kicking our butts.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  153. @Lot
    @anonymous jew

    “ But I do agree that there’s more to success than IQ. I noted before that I think Jews’ low levels of agreeableness”

    Dunkel’s study has Jews with the highest level of agreeableness, by more than half a SD, in one study, and exactly average in another.

    http://www.midus.wisc.edu/findings/pdfs/1488.pdf

    Replies: @SFG

    Higher agreeableness I could buy if they asked too many social justice questions in the survey. Higher openness–sure, that’s heavily loaded on left-right. Higher extraversion…it kinda fits the stereotype. Lower conscientiousness…I *guess*

    But lower *neuroticism*, Lot? (In an American, not Israeli, sample?) Not buying it.

  154. @education realist
    The thing is, the UC system has been trying to manipulate the SAT for years to make the test less g-dependent. That did two things, at different times.

    First, by removing all the vocabulary (first antonyms, then analogies,) and the quantitative comparisons and other g-loaded math questions that weren't necessarily advanced, but were difficult.

    Then, by *increasing* the years of math needed to do well on the test.

    So an easier verbal section and a math section that rewards swotting, not brains.

    Couple that with something that Americans, regardless of race, really can't comprehend, which is the hours and hours and hours and hours that otherwise ordinary immigrant Asian kids put into the SAT.

    UC spent 15 years thinking it was a black/white world, and now they have too many Asians.

    I mean, leave aside cheating, which seems to be rampant overseas and, given the shocking ease that random rich folks had in bringing in proxies into the testing room, it may be here as well.

    But I don't think that they'll be able to stay the "No test" course and as you point out, Steve, they're already saying they'll develop their own test, which will have all the same issues.

    Not sure where it goes from here, except I can't seriously see the top UCs maintaining their ranking if all become UC Riverside.

    I've seen some mention of them using the CA state test, the SBAC. That only has four scores. But even 4 scores creates a huge achievement gap.

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @Some Guy, @Gimeiyo, @Bumpkin, @Happy tapir

    Not sure where it goes from here

    Oh, that’s simple, the complete destruction of academia. It could have been done decades ago, but internet entrepreneurs are fairly stupid, so they’re only getting around to it now. Now that all the travel agents, TV executives, and taxi dispatchers have been replaced by software, academics are next.

  155. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Anonymous

    I don't know whether this applies to the topic, yet: I've read years ago interview of eminent literary critic & scholar, Harold Bloom of Yale (himself Jewish). He claimed that while Jews had excelled when he was a student, during the 1950s or so, now they're mostly mediocre because they adopted hedonistic & anti-intellectual culture of the majority. He said his best students were Asian.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Marshal Marlow

    Back in the 1970s I hung out a lot with the Beverly Hills HS debate team, who were smart and focused individuals. But, I eventually discovered, much of the rest of BHHS was high ALL the time.

  156. @Anon
    OT: Flynn case is getting weirder. Judge Sullivan has just hired a lawyer for himself. Bizarre.

    https://twitter.com/Techno_Fog/status/1264301988856111104?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1264301988856111104&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fmarkets%2Fflynn-judge-outsources-high-profile-lawyer-explain-why-he-wont-dismiss-case

    Replies: @Charon, @Anon

    Oh, this is news to me. Judge Sullivan is black, undergrad and J.D. from Howard University.

    So he’s probably an affirmative action judge. And historically there has been a lot of corruption surrounding black judges. I’d check his bank deposits.

    • Replies: @dr kill
    @Anon

    And there's some serious internet swirl about his kids, too. Not enough attention on extortion and coercion in Teh Fed Gov . I believe it to be everywhere, it explains to my satisfaction all the otherwise incomprehensible shit I observe.

    , @EdwardM
    @Anon

    Yep. I hadn't thought of corruption, but rather that perhaps he is not capable of drafting a Circuit-Court-ready brief. Anyone ever read his decisions? I suppose he doesn't have clerks anymore.

  157. Murray’s been pushing to end SAT for years. I’m not going to dig it up but he’s been saying for years that SAT is no improvement over subject matter exams.

  158. It is genetic…

    1. MRI scans of living human brains have lately revealed that Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans (Orientals for short) have larger brains than white people, with more neurones, even. There is an association between brain size and intelligence.

    2. Orientals score higher on IQ tests than white people, by around four or five IQ points. These tests were developed by white psychologists, so it is a bit of a stretch to claim that this is because the tests are culturally biased towards Orientals. If anything, any cultural bias on the tests would surely be in favour of whites.

    3. When Orientals come to live in the West, they adapt very well to Western culture and norms. They have very low rates of crime, they do well at school and acquire academic qualifications at all levels, they have low rates of substance abuse and illegitimacy. In short, they are at the top of all the positive social indices and at the bottom of all the negative social indices. They behave in exactly the way that one expects of a high IQ group of people, so the world is exactly as you would predict if the IQ data were true. There is thus no prima facie reason to dispute the IQ data.

    4. Darwin’s theory of evolution, a theory that all intelligent people are supposed to accept as true at least in its broad generality, states that a species of animal, when separated into distinct colonies by some contingency such as the search for resources or natural disaster, those distinct colonies will, in the course of thousands of generations, begin to diverge from one another genetically, owing to the diverse environmental pressures they are severally subjected to. The brain is an organ like any other, and is subject to evolution just like any other. Therefore it would disprove evolution and probably prove the existence of God if by some miracle the Races of Man had all either retained the same cognitive traits as their common ancestor or else evolved in exactly the same way.

    5. I have been involved in education almost all my working life and in my extensive experience the children of poorly educated Chinese “take away people” from Fujian province in China have higher average IQ’s than children of white educated upper middle class parents living in posh places like Islington. The adults can scarcely speak English so all this “their parents push them” bullshit is just bullshit.

    You can imagine how much I enjoyed telling smug educated white Labour Party Islington parents (and their children) all this whenever I got the chance. Sadly never these days. Young women used to hate to hear it the most. I can’t understand why white advocates don’t use the white Asian IQ gap more. After all, if anyone defends white people in all this then they are trying to say something positive about white people and are therefore a Racist.

    • Replies: @Charon
    @martin_2

    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/are-we-nearing-civil-war/#comment-1905365

    , @Sam Malone
    @martin_2

    Great post. And you're right, I don't know why we don't highlight the oriental-European gap more - as you say, for anyone to disagree would mean defending whites and devaluing Asian achievements.

    Replies: @Znzn

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @martin_2

    All true, but- insufficient. It doesn't explain bursts of creativity, or, better, creative chaos needed for revolutionary breakthroughs. Here Darwinian approach seems to be inadequate. Not wrong, just lacking.

    1. there is no g, not some quantifiable IQ. There are different, 5-15, say, types of cognitive abilities & that’s all. Forget about factor analysis & similar phlogistons- there is not a cat-mouse which is a combo of a cat & a mouse.

    2. life around us, history, world … show us that cognitive abilities differ in individuals, sexes, races, perhaps other collectives.

    3. intelligence is just one trait, now more important than before, but other traits, both measurable & non-measurable are perhaps even more important. For instance, creativity, imagination, something…

    E.M. Forster wrote his best & last novel “A Passage to India” in 1924; he died when he was 91, 1970. Why for almost half a century he had been writing only minor & trivial things? Laziness? Or muse had, alas, definitely departed.

    Most theoretical physicists are finished by their 35, max 40 (including the greatest, Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, or among truly moderns Dirac & Heisenberg). Why? We don’t know.

    With regard to intellectual creativity on highest levels we can glean from history that philosophers & mathematicians age well, while physicists are like women, especially Nordic white & Japanese- they, alas, don’t age well.

    4. A brief excursus: historically, some collectives are astonishingly not only “over-represented”, but truly incomprehensible in their creativity (“intelligence”) & influence: ancient Greeks from 700-200 BC, Italians from 1300-1600, English from 1500-1750, Germans from 1750-1850 (a rough sketch, of course). Greeks are doubtlessly the greatest genius of a people in history. How, why, …? We don’t know.

    The English had created immensely from, say, 1500 to 1900 (and swallowed a quarter of the globe in the process). How, why, …? There was a significant pre-Norman English culture, but Normans (French Vikings) had destroyed most of it & English nation had begun to form, anew, somewhere around 1350-1400. So, English made in 500 years more than Chinese in 4000 years, globally.

    Why?

    We don't know.

    Anytime, every time, someone is prominent above average, and especially on much larger scale (see Greeks, Italians, Germans, English..). Such is life. Rise & fall. Ups & downs.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Anonymous
    @martin_2

    All of what you write is fine and dandy but Im still at a loss developing a reasonable basis for justifying the fact that white taxpayers in Iowa are asked to support universities whose student bodies are almost 25% foreign born Chinese. I know the common justification is that the universities need these students to stay afloat financially. However, this Corona crisis has revealed that most of these "costs" are adminstrative bloat - pensions for system retirees, high paying Director of Diversity jobs, etc.

    There are all sorts of opportunities to cut costs such as online course delivery. Do we really need a professor of mechanical engineering to walk into a classrom 25 days a semester to teach thermodynamics? Couldnt "great lecture series" versions of these lectures be recorded and delivered to students on some online platform. Do we really need 4 different people at each university to teach introductory thermodynamics. I looked through my nephews Introduction to Thermodynamics textbook and it was basically the same material from my text from 30 years ago. However, he spent nearly 200 dollars on a new textbook. Why is this model of educational delivery still considered reasonable?

    , @Menes
    @martin_2


    Orientals score higher on IQ tests than white people, by around four or five IQ points.
     
    Wrong. The difference is closer to 10 points when average East Asian IQ is compared to average European IQ.

    Making it worse is the steady decline in European IQ, the reverse Flynn Effect.
    , @Chinaman
    @martin_2


    Orientals score higher on IQ tests than white people, by around four or five IQ points. These tests were developed by white psychologists, so it is a bit of a stretch to claim that this is because the tests are culturally biased towards Orientals. If anything, any cultural bias on the tests would surely be in favour of whites.
     
    Norm against the Zhejiang province with a population of 100m people (area that surrounds Shanghai) , whites are bordering retardation since the average IQ in zhejiang is 115. That’s a full standard deviation and as large as the black white gap. Most of what America gets are the lower caste Chinese who can’t make it in China and the Chinese diaspora is often used as a proxy ( which suffers from adverse selection too too) so I think the IQ of 105 you quoted is understated just as IQ of the average American is not reflective of white IQ since it is diluted by blacks and browns. Hans are not as homogenous as one would think. A lot of Northern Chinese have Mongolian admixture ( or Manchurian) which drags down their IQ. There are also 56 minorities in China which represents 10% of the population, they are also low IQ and test often need to be dumb down for them.

    Replies: @Derek Jeter, @Derek Jeter

    , @Anonymous
    @martin_2

    If East Asians are so high IQ and so awesome, why aren't their societies much better than Western societies? Why do they still want to move here? Clearly we are still superior in most ways, and continue to have better societies than theirs. Having more of them here will just turn us into more like their shitty society that they try to run away from - dishonesty, corruption, horrible manners, selfishness, filth, dog eat dog.

    What's more these people make the worst neighbors. Even when they bought million dollar homes, they destroy the neighborhood by always being the ones with the most unkempt yards, shitty roofs and houses that badly need repainting. And don't even get me started on their diet, these people will eat anything that moves. Every single SARS virus was started by their disgusting eating habits.

    Replies: @Chinaman

  159. @Anon7
    @Steve Sailer

    Sorry about that.

    I asked my son who the smartest math students in grad school are, and he said Asians. Among the Asians, he says the Chinese are the smartest. If you ask him why that is, he shrugs and says their N is bigger, 1.4 billion Chinese vs. 0.33 billion Americans.

    And they send the cream of their crop here. There are only just so many spots at the top. Game over.

    Replies: @Anon, @PiltdownMan, @Lin

    Somewhat OT:

    Here’s an article from yesterday’s Washington Post about a woman mathematician which, very unusually for these times, doesn’t go on and on about the fact that she is a woman, and instead, focuses on her accomplishment.

    Graduate student untangles nature of Conway knot

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/graduate-student-untangles-nature-of-conway-knot/2020/05/22/9a38bebe-9ace-11ea-ac72-3841fcc9b35f_story.html

    PS: It also provides a to another, slightly more detailed (and similarly dispassionate) article in Quanta.

    https://www.quantamagazine.org/graduate-student-solves-decades-old-conway-knot-problem-20200519

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @PiltdownMan

    She got the idea from another female professor, at Steve's alma mater.

    The article names John Conway as a Covid-19 victim. Did he comment on it? Conway got a nice tribute on the Numberphile channel.

    If you like smart math girls who don't make a fuss about being girls, that's the place to go. I like their self-described "Champaign Mathematician" Holly Krieger. PBS's Kelsey Houston-Edwards is even more chipper. Eugenia Cheng unites maths-- she's a Sussex girl, schooled at Roedean-- with cooking.

    Now that's the kind of feminization I can go for!

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

  160. The Armenian thing you mention is what basically everyone from east of the former Iron Curtain does

  161. @anonymous jew
    @Pooh Bear 250

    There are a handful of studies on Fancy Asians adopted at birth and raised by Whites in Western countries. I don't think Asians put out for adoption are representative of Asians in general either. And yet these adopted Fancy Asian rejects still - just slightly - outperform Whites.

    Fancy Asians aren't necessarily succeeding (at least on tests) because they're some cognitive elite of the East. Also, the behaviors that you describe - ie being agreeable and focused - are heritable just like IQ. I think cultural factors could explain a lot, particularly Asians pulling away. But even if US Asians were completely representative of their populations and fully assimilated, there's plenty of evidence they would still produce more high scoring grinds that never make it beyond middle management.

    But I do agree that there's more to success than IQ. I noted before that I think Jews' low levels of agreeableness can actually be an advantage in many fields. (I think there's more to Jewish success than being tribal and nepotism, but that's another story).

    Replies: @Lot, @Bardon Kaldian, @Lowry Samuel, @Anon

    But I do agree that there’s more to success than IQ.

    Of course. Just, most people here think if you’re not an IQ fetishist, then you must be an IQ “denier”.

    Life is more complicated.

    It all boils down to unreliability of psychometry as such. And I’m not talking about geniuses, bursts of creativity & similar stuff.

    Simply, what those tests should measure is talent, gift, capability for some area. If limited to such, rather narrow field, psychometry tests could work very well.They could show that some people are gifted for numbers, or for engineering tasks, good with words, or good in space orientation etc.

    But it is absurd to derive (I know the argument of factor analysis, but it is bollocks) that some magical number, IQ, is the final product which will show a person’s success in life in general. What is “success”? How can we measure capability of an individual to attain”success” in a given field?

    There are many problems with IQ ideology which remain insurmountable.

    We all use the word “intelligence” & even if we look at psychology dictionaries & agree with it, nonetheless the concept remains vague. Probably there are a few types of intelligence: verbal, arithmetic, geometrical & maybe a few others. Why would we lump these types of intelligence together is beyond my comprehension.

    As for musical ability, various types of talents in other fields…better not call this “intelligence” (social “intelligence, emotional “intelligence”,..). This is a misuse of the word. Ability, talent, whatever…

    Intelligence, as defined by textbooks, is by no means as important & decisive in modern societies as IQ religionists would like us to believe. More, I would rather call it TQ (talent quotient) or CQ (capability quotient), than IQ. There are a few CQ, we all know this:

    * CQ for something like mathematics
    * CQ for abstract thinking in words (not eloquence)
    * CQ for ….

    In short, old “multiple intelligences” theory was onto something, although not in the old, dogmatic way. How many capabilities are to be measured- I’d leave it to psychometricians as long as they follow common sense. I’d say 10-15.

    But to “extract” one number from all those variegated talents is absurd (I don’t buy the factor analysis argument). If one could, say, try to assess AQ (artistic quotient) from areas of literary writing, music, painting, dance, … for a guy who is a genius painter, but abysmally bad in dancing, music,…- we would get a mediocre AQ, a figure which doesn’t tell us anything. The guy is a genius in one area & moron in others.

    Then, there remains the big, big elephant of creativity. Sorry, but creativity is something different & cannot be reduced to any psycho test; it, at its peaks, comes in flashes including intuition, dreaming, imagination,…

    Creativity is not, as yet, described or classified satisfactorily. For instance, invention is somehow connected to creativity, but these terms are not identical.

    Then, there are different types of creativity: “flash” type of creativity, which is “inspiration”, like in Haiku or Zen painting, so different from long, “high structural” creativity, a good example being Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel.

    Perhaps in some future we will be able to ascertain, experimentally, through neuro-imagining, neurophysiology, brain investigation …. some new aspects & dimensions of human cognition and behavior (emotion, impulse control, ethical development,..) and intuition and imagination and …

    Until then, IQ “wars” are like masturbation compared to real sex.

    And it is even more absurd to try it with human collectives.

    We all see with our own eyes what different human collectives are capable of, and it is not some magical number that will give us varieties of human accomplishment & functionality of human collectives, given the historical moment, ideas, manners, environment, … and even more- hope, self-reliance, adaptability, stubbornness, morals..

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/mn-mongolia

    Mongolia: Avg. IQ 101

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 13,700

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/lt-lithuania

    Lithuania: Avg. IQ 91

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 32,400

    • Replies: @Charon
    @Bardon Kaldian


    "Conversation enriches the understanding, but solitude is the school of genius.” --Gibbon

     

    How many people are there in Asia?
    , @RAZ
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Not just raw intelligence and innate capabilities. Lithuanian GDP benefits from their being lucky to be located in Europe. Mongolian GDP hurt by being located in Central Asia.

    , @dr kill
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Why, it's almost as if you're arguing in favor of Individualism. If only there was a land where such a concept could be tried.

    , @anonymous
    @Bardon Kaldian


    Perhaps in some future we will be able to ascertain, experimentally, through neuro-imagining, neurophysiology, brain investigation …. some new aspects & dimensions of human cognition and behavior (emotion, impulse control, ethical development,..) and intuition and imagination and …
     
    Can you recommend any literature on these dimensions of intelligence beyond simple IQ?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  162. I got a his idea from Razib Khan – once standardized testing goes it will all be patronage networks determining admission.

    How much of this is Jewish fears of intermarriage, especially Jewish women who seethe at top Jewish men marrying Asian women? The list is long but Zuckerberg, Chua etc?

  163. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Anonymous

    I don't know whether this applies to the topic, yet: I've read years ago interview of eminent literary critic & scholar, Harold Bloom of Yale (himself Jewish). He claimed that while Jews had excelled when he was a student, during the 1950s or so, now they're mostly mediocre because they adopted hedonistic & anti-intellectual culture of the majority. He said his best students were Asian.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Marshal Marlow

    This is one of those topics that is rather ripe for revision: we are now living in the sunset era of the “victors’ history” of the twentieth century, and the exit review is just getting started.

    What I mean is, I was never much impressed by the much-insisted-upon “brilliance” of mid twentieth century liberal-arts Jewish intellectual achievements (I’ll leave the sciences for those who can speak to that). As a youngster I had to of course read Lionel Trilling and Oscar Handlin and Daniel Bell and Hofstadter and Harold Bloom and all the usual suspects, and I was rather underwhelmed. They struck me as simply being loud and insistent and omnipresent and unrelenting and just plain hogging the microphone; I mean, have you ever tried to actually read the art criticism of say Clement Greenberg? So much of ostensible Jewish-American ‘brilliance’ is simply the result of relentless log-rolling, nepotism and hype, as well as just being everywhere at once, drowning out the room and sucking all the air out of every open space in sight. Which is not to say that their gentile counterparts were any sort of supernovas: in the great dust-up between Philip Roth and John Updike, I think everyone’s wondering “Can’t they both lose?”

    It’s said that the poet Frank O’Hara was present in a room packed with Beat literary royalty for the first public reading of Allen Ginsberg’s “Howl,” and as Allen intoned the famous opening line “I saw the best minds of my generation…” Frank scanned the room and said, in a catty stage whisper, “Who’s he /talking/ about?”

    • Troll: ScarletNumber
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    I'll just repeat what I already said:

    a) Bloom was a very erudite litcrit. I've read ca. 10 of his books & I think he was, mostly, right re imaginative literature (some omissions & hyperbolas aside), while he was mostly wrong about religion and similar stuff. I've read some Trilling, too- not bad. I didn't read other guys.

    b) Bloom & comp. were not original or profound thinkers in their respective fields. For deep stuff in that area, one has to go to Mikhail Bakhtin, Bruno Snell, Ernst Curtius, Erich Auerbach, Albin Lesky and, perhaps, Northrop Frye.

    Bloom was brilliant, just- his brilliance was of an eclectic erudite literary mind for an educated audience. There was probably some Jewish nepotism in his case, but, in my opinion, it was not essential.

    Anyway, Jewish or Gentile- Bloom was, warts and all, a force for the good. Unlike Foucault, Derrida & other Franco-Heideggerians.

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease

  164. @martin_2
    It is genetic...

    1. MRI scans of living human brains have lately revealed that Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans (Orientals for short) have larger brains than white people, with more neurones, even. There is an association between brain size and intelligence.

    2. Orientals score higher on IQ tests than white people, by around four or five IQ points. These tests were developed by white psychologists, so it is a bit of a stretch to claim that this is because the tests are culturally biased towards Orientals. If anything, any cultural bias on the tests would surely be in favour of whites.

    3. When Orientals come to live in the West, they adapt very well to Western culture and norms. They have very low rates of crime, they do well at school and acquire academic qualifications at all levels, they have low rates of substance abuse and illegitimacy. In short, they are at the top of all the positive social indices and at the bottom of all the negative social indices. They behave in exactly the way that one expects of a high IQ group of people, so the world is exactly as you would predict if the IQ data were true. There is thus no prima facie reason to dispute the IQ data.

    4. Darwin's theory of evolution, a theory that all intelligent people are supposed to accept as true at least in its broad generality, states that a species of animal, when separated into distinct colonies by some contingency such as the search for resources or natural disaster, those distinct colonies will, in the course of thousands of generations, begin to diverge from one another genetically, owing to the diverse environmental pressures they are severally subjected to. The brain is an organ like any other, and is subject to evolution just like any other. Therefore it would disprove evolution and probably prove the existence of God if by some miracle the Races of Man had all either retained the same cognitive traits as their common ancestor or else evolved in exactly the same way.

    5. I have been involved in education almost all my working life and in my extensive experience the children of poorly educated Chinese "take away people" from Fujian province in China have higher average IQ's than children of white educated upper middle class parents living in posh places like Islington. The adults can scarcely speak English so all this "their parents push them" bullshit is just bullshit.

    You can imagine how much I enjoyed telling smug educated white Labour Party Islington parents (and their children) all this whenever I got the chance. Sadly never these days. Young women used to hate to hear it the most. I can't understand why white advocates don't use the white Asian IQ gap more. After all, if anyone defends white people in all this then they are trying to say something positive about white people and are therefore a Racist.

    Replies: @Charon, @Sam Malone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Anonymous, @Menes, @Chinaman, @Anonymous

  165. The future is cram schools for everyone.

    The eldest lil Hodag got into a highly competitive junior high program for next fall (bragging). You get to start high school in seventh grade and the last two years is all AP and taxpayer funded college work at Loyola or Uof Chicago.

    Almost every parent of smart kids wants them in this program. 1/3 of the admission criteria is an IQ test. The results are published and this year the score to get in went up 5 or 6 IQ points, just like when NY was forced to scrap the IQ test for kindergarten. I wonder what the class will look like. I guess mostly Asian since they test prep like crazy.

    • Replies: @Anon7
    @Hodag

    "The future is cram schools for everyone."

    Yech, that sounds awful and maybe true. This is why we all need our own countries. All of us national groups have our preferred HBD-evolved ways of doing civilization (if indeed your national group does civilization - I don't think everyone does) and not everyone brings the cream to the top with standardized tests for which you can cram.

    As Asians get more places in our top universities, the "culture" will shift away from ours and toward theirs.

    So yeah, if you want to get into grad school, go to a cram school.

    Congrats on lil Hodag, btw. My son did something similar in academics, if less formalized. I'm not sure if he ever did anything like cramming; it was more like watering a plant. He loves math.

  166. Namely, Asians have been pulling away from everybody else on the SAT college admissions test, especially since David “Common Core” Coleman got his hands on the SAT a few years back, opening an unprecedented 100 point lead over whites in the last couple of years.

    Or, everyone else is falling away from Asians. I’m sure you’ve seen something along the lines of my Grandfather’s 8th grade test from circa 1910, which the average grad student today would find challenging.

    • Agree: Hibernian
  167. @Bardon Kaldian
    @anonymous jew


    But I do agree that there’s more to success than IQ.
     
    Of course. Just, most people here think if you're not an IQ fetishist, then you must be an IQ "denier".

    Life is more complicated.

    It all boils down to unreliability of psychometry as such. And I’m not talking about geniuses, bursts of creativity & similar stuff.

    Simply, what those tests should measure is talent, gift, capability for some area. If limited to such, rather narrow field, psychometry tests could work very well.They could show that some people are gifted for numbers, or for engineering tasks, good with words, or good in space orientation etc.

    But it is absurd to derive (I know the argument of factor analysis, but it is bollocks) that some magical number, IQ, is the final product which will show a person’s success in life in general. What is “success”? How can we measure capability of an individual to attain”success” in a given field?

    There are many problems with IQ ideology which remain insurmountable.

    We all use the word “intelligence” & even if we look at psychology dictionaries & agree with it, nonetheless the concept remains vague. Probably there are a few types of intelligence: verbal, arithmetic, geometrical & maybe a few others. Why would we lump these types of intelligence together is beyond my comprehension.

    As for musical ability, various types of talents in other fields…better not call this “intelligence” (social “intelligence, emotional “intelligence”,..). This is a misuse of the word. Ability, talent, whatever…

    Intelligence, as defined by textbooks, is by no means as important & decisive in modern societies as IQ religionists would like us to believe. More, I would rather call it TQ (talent quotient) or CQ (capability quotient), than IQ. There are a few CQ, we all know this:

    * CQ for something like mathematics
    * CQ for abstract thinking in words (not eloquence)
    * CQ for ….

    In short, old “multiple intelligences” theory was onto something, although not in the old, dogmatic way. How many capabilities are to be measured- I’d leave it to psychometricians as long as they follow common sense. I’d say 10-15.

    But to “extract” one number from all those variegated talents is absurd (I don’t buy the factor analysis argument). If one could, say, try to assess AQ (artistic quotient) from areas of literary writing, music, painting, dance, … for a guy who is a genius painter, but abysmally bad in dancing, music,…- we would get a mediocre AQ, a figure which doesn’t tell us anything. The guy is a genius in one area & moron in others.

    Then, there remains the big, big elephant of creativity. Sorry, but creativity is something different & cannot be reduced to any psycho test; it, at its peaks, comes in flashes including intuition, dreaming, imagination,…

    Creativity is not, as yet, described or classified satisfactorily. For instance, invention is somehow connected to creativity, but these terms are not identical.

    Then, there are different types of creativity: “flash” type of creativity, which is “inspiration”, like in Haiku or Zen painting, so different from long, “high structural” creativity, a good example being Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel.

    Perhaps in some future we will be able to ascertain, experimentally, through neuro-imagining, neurophysiology, brain investigation …. some new aspects & dimensions of human cognition and behavior (emotion, impulse control, ethical development,..) and intuition and imagination and …

    Until then, IQ “wars” are like masturbation compared to real sex.

    And it is even more absurd to try it with human collectives.

    We all see with our own eyes what different human collectives are capable of, and it is not some magical number that will give us varieties of human accomplishment & functionality of human collectives, given the historical moment, ideas, manners, environment, … and even more- hope, self-reliance, adaptability, stubbornness, morals..

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/mn-mongolia

    Mongolia: Avg. IQ 101

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 13,700

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/lt-lithuania

    Lithuania: Avg. IQ 91

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 32,400

    Replies: @Charon, @RAZ, @dr kill, @anonymous

    “Conversation enriches the understanding, but solitude is the school of genius.” –Gibbon

    How many people are there in Asia?

  168. @Alden
    @Charon

    Teacher recommendations sounds very corrupt third world. Just bribe the teachers.

    Someone should tell the Teachers Union that they could be sued if a student they wrote a recommendation for didn’t get into a college.

    That’s why employers don’t write references any more except for “ So and so worked as a whatever from March 2010 to March 2020”

    White parents can do one of two things to ensure acceptance and scholarships

    1 Be sure to check the African American box
    2 Change your child’s last name to a common Hispanic one at age 4.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    3 Give $5 million to the school

  169. RAZ says:
    @Alice
    @Anon

    There aren't any white middle class kids who can afford to go to the UC anymore anyway, and they certainly can't afford SAT prep. the white kids going were kids of Woke Karens.

    Cost to go to Cal for 1 year: $40k in-state
    https://admissions.berkeley.edu/cost

    Estimated Student Budget 2019-2020
    CA RESIDENT NONRESIDENT*
    Tuition and Fees $14,254 $14,254
    Nonresident supplemental tuition - $29,754
    Student Health Insurance Plan** $3,286 $3,286
    *Room and board $17,220 $17,220
    Food $1,644 $1,644
    Books and supplies $870 $870
    Personal $1,876 $1,876
    Transportation $400 $400
    TOTAL $39,550 $69,304
    *Calculated based on students living in the residence halls.


    That's right, it's 2k a month to live in Unit 2. living in Berkeley is not cheaper.

    UC San Diego: $25k a year if you live at home

    Cost of Attendance Living with Parents On Campus Off Campus
    CA Resident Tuition/Feesa, d, e (View Components) $14,451 $14,451 $14,451
    Housing and Meals $6,579 $14,295 $13,614
    Books and Supplies $1,128 $1,128 $1,128
    Transportation $1,506 $534 $1,104
    Personal Expenses $1,647 $1,479 $1,590
    Estimated CA Resident Cost Totalsb $25,311 $31,887 $31,887

    Replies: @Anon, @Hibernian, @RAZ, @Pericles, @Anonymous

    That is daunting. Wonder how many middle class kids admittable to top UC’s go to much less expensive but high rated out of state Honors programs like ASU Barrett (their website says more Merit scholars than MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, etc.)?

    When my son was looking at colleges he received an unsolicited offer (it may have been full ride) from our in state honors program. Wasn’t enough to convince him. Went to a NE liberal arts school. But he was one of the lucky ones with a grandparent created college fund.

    • Replies: @AnonAnon
    @RAZ


    Wonder how many middle class kids admittable to top UC’s go to much less expensive but high rated out of state Honors programs like ASU Barrett (their website says more Merit scholars than MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, etc.)?
     
    ASU (and U of Az) is very aggressive about recruiting California kids. They offer a number of automatic merit scholarships based on ACT/SAT scores and/or GPA. My son didn’t get the very top tier but I believe he was offered something in the realm of $16K per year, bringing the cost down to just above that of a Cal State, which at the time was about $10K less than a UC. However, I doubt any California resident child that worked their tail off to get into UCLA or Berkeley (or even UCSD or UCSB) is turning their back on those schools, currently ranked #20 and #22. You need to walk on water these days - near 5.0 GPA, 1550+ SAT, four year varsity athlete, multiple extra curriculums to get into those schools (standards are lower for out of state kids). Perhaps once you are out of the top four UCs, the trade off becomes more difficult. (I am only taking about kids who pay resident rates. $69K for a UC is another ball of wax. Moreover, most flagship state schools are running their residents at least $30K a year. The only “cheap” way to go to a highly regarded flagship school is the CC transfer route.) I’m still not sold on the honors college concept. Maybe it’s because we were looking at engineering programs and it’s not a factor for that major. At the end of the day, your linkedin profile still says ASU, which is ranked #117. There is also the oppressive hot weather to deal with. My husband has a co-worker whose son is going to ASU who wanted to transfer back to college in Southern California because of the heat. The temp was 114 on his freshmen move in day. Moreover, ASU has 58,000+ students. It’s a very large college and it feels like it. The UCs certainly aren’t small but they are not nearly the behemoth ASU is. The top UCs also have a much higher overall caliber student body. The girls are pretty stunning at ASU, though, I hear.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  170. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Bardon Kaldian

    This is one of those topics that is rather ripe for revision: we are now living in the sunset era of the "victors' history" of the twentieth century, and the exit review is just getting started.

    What I mean is, I was never much impressed by the much-insisted-upon "brilliance" of mid twentieth century liberal-arts Jewish intellectual achievements (I'll leave the sciences for those who can speak to that). As a youngster I had to of course read Lionel Trilling and Oscar Handlin and Daniel Bell and Hofstadter and Harold Bloom and all the usual suspects, and I was rather underwhelmed. They struck me as simply being loud and insistent and omnipresent and unrelenting and just plain hogging the microphone; I mean, have you ever tried to actually read the art criticism of say Clement Greenberg? So much of ostensible Jewish-American 'brilliance' is simply the result of relentless log-rolling, nepotism and hype, as well as just being everywhere at once, drowning out the room and sucking all the air out of every open space in sight. Which is not to say that their gentile counterparts were any sort of supernovas: in the great dust-up between Philip Roth and John Updike, I think everyone's wondering "Can't they both lose?"

    It's said that the poet Frank O'Hara was present in a room packed with Beat literary royalty for the first public reading of Allen Ginsberg's "Howl," and as Allen intoned the famous opening line "I saw the best minds of my generation..." Frank scanned the room and said, in a catty stage whisper, "Who's he /talking/ about?"

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    I’ll just repeat what I already said:

    a) Bloom was a very erudite litcrit. I’ve read ca. 10 of his books & I think he was, mostly, right re imaginative literature (some omissions & hyperbolas aside), while he was mostly wrong about religion and similar stuff. I’ve read some Trilling, too- not bad. I didn’t read other guys.

    b) Bloom & comp. were not original or profound thinkers in their respective fields. For deep stuff in that area, one has to go to Mikhail Bakhtin, Bruno Snell, Ernst Curtius, Erich Auerbach, Albin Lesky and, perhaps, Northrop Frye.

    Bloom was brilliant, just- his brilliance was of an eclectic erudite literary mind for an educated audience. There was probably some Jewish nepotism in his case, but, in my opinion, it was not essential.

    Anyway, Jewish or Gentile- Bloom was, warts and all, a force for the good. Unlike Foucault, Derrida & other Franco-Heideggerians.

    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Well I'd agree with you about Harold Bloom -- more than anything else he was a remarkable resource, a guy who read pretty much really everything in his entire field, and managed to keep it all at his fingertips. A rather superhuman feat. I think his Shakespeare criticism is often original and insightful. I grow impatient when he gets oracular, and I'm skeptical of his grander theories, but you have to allow a mind like that its indulgences.

    As for the rest, it seems like I was getting into something that's rather perpendicular to your original point, so I'll leave it be unless you want to dig into it some more...

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  171. @Bardon Kaldian
    @anonymous jew


    But I do agree that there’s more to success than IQ.
     
    Of course. Just, most people here think if you're not an IQ fetishist, then you must be an IQ "denier".

    Life is more complicated.

    It all boils down to unreliability of psychometry as such. And I’m not talking about geniuses, bursts of creativity & similar stuff.

    Simply, what those tests should measure is talent, gift, capability for some area. If limited to such, rather narrow field, psychometry tests could work very well.They could show that some people are gifted for numbers, or for engineering tasks, good with words, or good in space orientation etc.

    But it is absurd to derive (I know the argument of factor analysis, but it is bollocks) that some magical number, IQ, is the final product which will show a person’s success in life in general. What is “success”? How can we measure capability of an individual to attain”success” in a given field?

    There are many problems with IQ ideology which remain insurmountable.

    We all use the word “intelligence” & even if we look at psychology dictionaries & agree with it, nonetheless the concept remains vague. Probably there are a few types of intelligence: verbal, arithmetic, geometrical & maybe a few others. Why would we lump these types of intelligence together is beyond my comprehension.

    As for musical ability, various types of talents in other fields…better not call this “intelligence” (social “intelligence, emotional “intelligence”,..). This is a misuse of the word. Ability, talent, whatever…

    Intelligence, as defined by textbooks, is by no means as important & decisive in modern societies as IQ religionists would like us to believe. More, I would rather call it TQ (talent quotient) or CQ (capability quotient), than IQ. There are a few CQ, we all know this:

    * CQ for something like mathematics
    * CQ for abstract thinking in words (not eloquence)
    * CQ for ….

    In short, old “multiple intelligences” theory was onto something, although not in the old, dogmatic way. How many capabilities are to be measured- I’d leave it to psychometricians as long as they follow common sense. I’d say 10-15.

    But to “extract” one number from all those variegated talents is absurd (I don’t buy the factor analysis argument). If one could, say, try to assess AQ (artistic quotient) from areas of literary writing, music, painting, dance, … for a guy who is a genius painter, but abysmally bad in dancing, music,…- we would get a mediocre AQ, a figure which doesn’t tell us anything. The guy is a genius in one area & moron in others.

    Then, there remains the big, big elephant of creativity. Sorry, but creativity is something different & cannot be reduced to any psycho test; it, at its peaks, comes in flashes including intuition, dreaming, imagination,…

    Creativity is not, as yet, described or classified satisfactorily. For instance, invention is somehow connected to creativity, but these terms are not identical.

    Then, there are different types of creativity: “flash” type of creativity, which is “inspiration”, like in Haiku or Zen painting, so different from long, “high structural” creativity, a good example being Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel.

    Perhaps in some future we will be able to ascertain, experimentally, through neuro-imagining, neurophysiology, brain investigation …. some new aspects & dimensions of human cognition and behavior (emotion, impulse control, ethical development,..) and intuition and imagination and …

    Until then, IQ “wars” are like masturbation compared to real sex.

    And it is even more absurd to try it with human collectives.

    We all see with our own eyes what different human collectives are capable of, and it is not some magical number that will give us varieties of human accomplishment & functionality of human collectives, given the historical moment, ideas, manners, environment, … and even more- hope, self-reliance, adaptability, stubbornness, morals..

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/mn-mongolia

    Mongolia: Avg. IQ 101

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 13,700

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/lt-lithuania

    Lithuania: Avg. IQ 91

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 32,400

    Replies: @Charon, @RAZ, @dr kill, @anonymous

    Not just raw intelligence and innate capabilities. Lithuanian GDP benefits from their being lucky to be located in Europe. Mongolian GDP hurt by being located in Central Asia.

  172. Going to the College of Aeronautics 2001 – 2004 I was painfully aware that I was only one of a handful of White students.

    In one advances avionics class I sat in the front row with 4 asain students. The blacks sat in the rear. The asains would pass papers back and forth amongs themselves discussing in detail every little detail. They would lean over to me to have me explain certain concepts and things. They were very open and friendly and did very well in this class. They were refreshing to be around.

    The blacks, when the reports were due would walk up to one or another of the asains with his blank paper and stand there in front of him at his table. Eventually the asain would take the paper and fill out the assignment and hand it back to the blacks and the blacks would get their passing grade. There was only one other white dude in the class and he was a Russian kid with language, communication, issues. No wonder SAT’s show what they show. If white kids communicated and showed interest in thinks the way asains do the gaps would be a lot tighter. Part nature, part nurture. But statistically asains do have a higher average IQ then whites. I’m white and I’m cool with this fact.

  173. @Anon
    @Anon

    Oh, this is news to me. Judge Sullivan is black, undergrad and J.D. from Howard University.

    So he’s probably an affirmative action judge. And historically there has been a lot of corruption surrounding black judges. I’d check his bank deposits.

    Replies: @dr kill, @EdwardM

    And there’s some serious internet swirl about his kids, too. Not enough attention on extortion and coercion in Teh Fed Gov . I believe it to be everywhere, it explains to my satisfaction all the otherwise incomprehensible shit I observe.

  174. @martin_2
    It is genetic...

    1. MRI scans of living human brains have lately revealed that Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans (Orientals for short) have larger brains than white people, with more neurones, even. There is an association between brain size and intelligence.

    2. Orientals score higher on IQ tests than white people, by around four or five IQ points. These tests were developed by white psychologists, so it is a bit of a stretch to claim that this is because the tests are culturally biased towards Orientals. If anything, any cultural bias on the tests would surely be in favour of whites.

    3. When Orientals come to live in the West, they adapt very well to Western culture and norms. They have very low rates of crime, they do well at school and acquire academic qualifications at all levels, they have low rates of substance abuse and illegitimacy. In short, they are at the top of all the positive social indices and at the bottom of all the negative social indices. They behave in exactly the way that one expects of a high IQ group of people, so the world is exactly as you would predict if the IQ data were true. There is thus no prima facie reason to dispute the IQ data.

    4. Darwin's theory of evolution, a theory that all intelligent people are supposed to accept as true at least in its broad generality, states that a species of animal, when separated into distinct colonies by some contingency such as the search for resources or natural disaster, those distinct colonies will, in the course of thousands of generations, begin to diverge from one another genetically, owing to the diverse environmental pressures they are severally subjected to. The brain is an organ like any other, and is subject to evolution just like any other. Therefore it would disprove evolution and probably prove the existence of God if by some miracle the Races of Man had all either retained the same cognitive traits as their common ancestor or else evolved in exactly the same way.

    5. I have been involved in education almost all my working life and in my extensive experience the children of poorly educated Chinese "take away people" from Fujian province in China have higher average IQ's than children of white educated upper middle class parents living in posh places like Islington. The adults can scarcely speak English so all this "their parents push them" bullshit is just bullshit.

    You can imagine how much I enjoyed telling smug educated white Labour Party Islington parents (and their children) all this whenever I got the chance. Sadly never these days. Young women used to hate to hear it the most. I can't understand why white advocates don't use the white Asian IQ gap more. After all, if anyone defends white people in all this then they are trying to say something positive about white people and are therefore a Racist.

    Replies: @Charon, @Sam Malone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Anonymous, @Menes, @Chinaman, @Anonymous

    Great post. And you’re right, I don’t know why we don’t highlight the oriental-European gap more – as you say, for anyone to disagree would mean defending whites and devaluing Asian achievements.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @Sam Malone

    Brb finding pictures of the firebombing of Tokyo from the interwebs......

  175. @Bardon Kaldian
    @anonymous jew


    But I do agree that there’s more to success than IQ.
     
    Of course. Just, most people here think if you're not an IQ fetishist, then you must be an IQ "denier".

    Life is more complicated.

    It all boils down to unreliability of psychometry as such. And I’m not talking about geniuses, bursts of creativity & similar stuff.

    Simply, what those tests should measure is talent, gift, capability for some area. If limited to such, rather narrow field, psychometry tests could work very well.They could show that some people are gifted for numbers, or for engineering tasks, good with words, or good in space orientation etc.

    But it is absurd to derive (I know the argument of factor analysis, but it is bollocks) that some magical number, IQ, is the final product which will show a person’s success in life in general. What is “success”? How can we measure capability of an individual to attain”success” in a given field?

    There are many problems with IQ ideology which remain insurmountable.

    We all use the word “intelligence” & even if we look at psychology dictionaries & agree with it, nonetheless the concept remains vague. Probably there are a few types of intelligence: verbal, arithmetic, geometrical & maybe a few others. Why would we lump these types of intelligence together is beyond my comprehension.

    As for musical ability, various types of talents in other fields…better not call this “intelligence” (social “intelligence, emotional “intelligence”,..). This is a misuse of the word. Ability, talent, whatever…

    Intelligence, as defined by textbooks, is by no means as important & decisive in modern societies as IQ religionists would like us to believe. More, I would rather call it TQ (talent quotient) or CQ (capability quotient), than IQ. There are a few CQ, we all know this:

    * CQ for something like mathematics
    * CQ for abstract thinking in words (not eloquence)
    * CQ for ….

    In short, old “multiple intelligences” theory was onto something, although not in the old, dogmatic way. How many capabilities are to be measured- I’d leave it to psychometricians as long as they follow common sense. I’d say 10-15.

    But to “extract” one number from all those variegated talents is absurd (I don’t buy the factor analysis argument). If one could, say, try to assess AQ (artistic quotient) from areas of literary writing, music, painting, dance, … for a guy who is a genius painter, but abysmally bad in dancing, music,…- we would get a mediocre AQ, a figure which doesn’t tell us anything. The guy is a genius in one area & moron in others.

    Then, there remains the big, big elephant of creativity. Sorry, but creativity is something different & cannot be reduced to any psycho test; it, at its peaks, comes in flashes including intuition, dreaming, imagination,…

    Creativity is not, as yet, described or classified satisfactorily. For instance, invention is somehow connected to creativity, but these terms are not identical.

    Then, there are different types of creativity: “flash” type of creativity, which is “inspiration”, like in Haiku or Zen painting, so different from long, “high structural” creativity, a good example being Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel.

    Perhaps in some future we will be able to ascertain, experimentally, through neuro-imagining, neurophysiology, brain investigation …. some new aspects & dimensions of human cognition and behavior (emotion, impulse control, ethical development,..) and intuition and imagination and …

    Until then, IQ “wars” are like masturbation compared to real sex.

    And it is even more absurd to try it with human collectives.

    We all see with our own eyes what different human collectives are capable of, and it is not some magical number that will give us varieties of human accomplishment & functionality of human collectives, given the historical moment, ideas, manners, environment, … and even more- hope, self-reliance, adaptability, stubbornness, morals..

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/mn-mongolia

    Mongolia: Avg. IQ 101

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 13,700

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/lt-lithuania

    Lithuania: Avg. IQ 91

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 32,400

    Replies: @Charon, @RAZ, @dr kill, @anonymous

    Why, it’s almost as if you’re arguing in favor of Individualism. If only there was a land where such a concept could be tried.

  176. Anonymous[352] • Disclaimer says:

    Basically, American universities have degenerated into yet another facet of corporate America, exploiting the great American capitalist rip off, much in the same way as the US healthcare, sports and legal system industries do.
    The business model can be summed up as ripping off the consumer to the maximum extent possible by charting the highest fees you can get away with – and at the other end paying the directors of these monopoly industries the biggest fattest salaries that can be squeezed out of the paying mug customer.
    This formula basically explains corporate America.

    Reading the biographies of leading American ‘porn stars’, I’m struck by the proportion of such females who claim that ‘paying college fees’ enticed them into this particular mode of prostitution. Justifiably, I’m sure many an American university can be accused, effectively, of ‘living off immoral earnings’, as the legalese goes.

    As an aside,in today’s f*cked up world driven by this so called ‘equality’ nonsense, women demand the ‘opportunity’ of university – and thus the danger of an immoral life – the more intelligent people of the past would have none of this nonsense; nubile women would be married off right away.

    So just *what* are universities*for*?

    Doling out ‘tickets’ to get non nasty employment?
    Social engineering?
    Big salaries for its functionaries?
    Custodians of knowledge?
    Giving self important ass holes a chance to act out?

    The whole thing has become an unholy mess.

  177. anon[462] • Disclaimer says:

    They are also thinking about getting rid of university rankings. This is something I thought would eventually happen. The dumb dumbs have finally realised that giving everyone a degree doesn’t work, because what matters has shifted from the degree itself to what university the degree is from.

    Fine, equalise the rankings so that Harvard has the same rank as Evergreen State College. But Harvard will find a way to make itself stand out. It’s as inescapable as gravity.

    The logical conclusion is make all universities part of the Harvard System. Now everyone goes to Harvard. But then what will happen is that Harvard will issue different classes of degree, similar to what Cambridge and Oxford do with their First and Second Class degrees. So I suppose the solution to this is to mandate that there can only be one degree. Ok, but then what will happen is that your GPA will be what matters, not the degree.
    So then they will mandate that everyone be reward the same GPA…
    https://www.chronicle.com/article/Why-One-Former-Campus-Leader/248831?cid=wcontentlist_hp_latest

    BTW, wouldn’t the ultimate act of anti-racism and progressivism be to donate your position at an elite school to a less privileged person? Why is no one doing this? People drone on and on about admission being unfair — ok, so why don’t you give up your seat?

  178. Somewhat OT: Why did the SAT average dip to a minimum in the five years after I took it (1974?) What was going on?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @PiltdownMan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwZ0ZUy7P3E

    , @res
    @PiltdownMan

    I think the Wikipedia explanation is on target.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#1960s_and_1970s_score_declines


    starting in the mid-1960s and continuing until the early 1980s, SAT scores declined: the average verbal score dropped by about 50 points, and the average math score fell by about 30 points. By the late 1970s, only the upper third of test takers were doing as well as the upper half of those taking the SAT in 1963. From 1961 to 1977, the number of SATs taken per year doubled, suggesting that the decline could be explained by demographic changes in the group of students taking the SAT. Commissioned by the College Board, an independent study of the decline found that most (up to about 75%) of the test decline in the 1960s could be explained by compositional changes in the group of students taking the test; however, only about 25 percent of the 1970s decrease in test scores could similarly be explained.[56] Later analyses suggested that up to 40 percent of the 1970s decline in scores could be explained by demographic changes, leaving unknown at least some of the reasons for the decline.[62]
     
  179. anonymous[363] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian
    @anonymous jew


    But I do agree that there’s more to success than IQ.
     
    Of course. Just, most people here think if you're not an IQ fetishist, then you must be an IQ "denier".

    Life is more complicated.

    It all boils down to unreliability of psychometry as such. And I’m not talking about geniuses, bursts of creativity & similar stuff.

    Simply, what those tests should measure is talent, gift, capability for some area. If limited to such, rather narrow field, psychometry tests could work very well.They could show that some people are gifted for numbers, or for engineering tasks, good with words, or good in space orientation etc.

    But it is absurd to derive (I know the argument of factor analysis, but it is bollocks) that some magical number, IQ, is the final product which will show a person’s success in life in general. What is “success”? How can we measure capability of an individual to attain”success” in a given field?

    There are many problems with IQ ideology which remain insurmountable.

    We all use the word “intelligence” & even if we look at psychology dictionaries & agree with it, nonetheless the concept remains vague. Probably there are a few types of intelligence: verbal, arithmetic, geometrical & maybe a few others. Why would we lump these types of intelligence together is beyond my comprehension.

    As for musical ability, various types of talents in other fields…better not call this “intelligence” (social “intelligence, emotional “intelligence”,..). This is a misuse of the word. Ability, talent, whatever…

    Intelligence, as defined by textbooks, is by no means as important & decisive in modern societies as IQ religionists would like us to believe. More, I would rather call it TQ (talent quotient) or CQ (capability quotient), than IQ. There are a few CQ, we all know this:

    * CQ for something like mathematics
    * CQ for abstract thinking in words (not eloquence)
    * CQ for ….

    In short, old “multiple intelligences” theory was onto something, although not in the old, dogmatic way. How many capabilities are to be measured- I’d leave it to psychometricians as long as they follow common sense. I’d say 10-15.

    But to “extract” one number from all those variegated talents is absurd (I don’t buy the factor analysis argument). If one could, say, try to assess AQ (artistic quotient) from areas of literary writing, music, painting, dance, … for a guy who is a genius painter, but abysmally bad in dancing, music,…- we would get a mediocre AQ, a figure which doesn’t tell us anything. The guy is a genius in one area & moron in others.

    Then, there remains the big, big elephant of creativity. Sorry, but creativity is something different & cannot be reduced to any psycho test; it, at its peaks, comes in flashes including intuition, dreaming, imagination,…

    Creativity is not, as yet, described or classified satisfactorily. For instance, invention is somehow connected to creativity, but these terms are not identical.

    Then, there are different types of creativity: “flash” type of creativity, which is “inspiration”, like in Haiku or Zen painting, so different from long, “high structural” creativity, a good example being Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel.

    Perhaps in some future we will be able to ascertain, experimentally, through neuro-imagining, neurophysiology, brain investigation …. some new aspects & dimensions of human cognition and behavior (emotion, impulse control, ethical development,..) and intuition and imagination and …

    Until then, IQ “wars” are like masturbation compared to real sex.

    And it is even more absurd to try it with human collectives.

    We all see with our own eyes what different human collectives are capable of, and it is not some magical number that will give us varieties of human accomplishment & functionality of human collectives, given the historical moment, ideas, manners, environment, … and even more- hope, self-reliance, adaptability, stubbornness, morals..

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/mn-mongolia

    Mongolia: Avg. IQ 101

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 13,700

    https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country/lt-lithuania

    Lithuania: Avg. IQ 91

    GDP per capita- PPP: $ 32,400

    Replies: @Charon, @RAZ, @dr kill, @anonymous

    Perhaps in some future we will be able to ascertain, experimentally, through neuro-imagining, neurophysiology, brain investigation …. some new aspects & dimensions of human cognition and behavior (emotion, impulse control, ethical development,..) and intuition and imagination and …

    Can you recommend any literature on these dimensions of intelligence beyond simple IQ?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @anonymous

    Not literature, but a few readable articles on various topics:

    https://www.livescience.com/54370-math-brain-network-discovered.html

    Mathematical Ability Revealed in Brain Scans

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-does-a-mathematician-s-brain-differ-from-that-of-a-mere-mortal/

    How Does a Mathematician's Brain Differ from That of a Mere Mortal?

    https://www.seeker.com/mathematical-ability-revealed-in-brain-scans-1771191893.html

    Mathematical Ability Revealed in Brain Scans

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_music

    Neuroscience of music

    https://mappingignorance.org/2018/05/02/music-maths-language-and-the-brain/

    Music, maths, language… and the brain

  180. @PiltdownMan
    Somewhat OT: Why did the SAT average dip to a minimum in the five years after I took it (1974?) What was going on?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @res

  181. @allensheep
    @anon

    It's an interesting question with these "diversity statements". I'm a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I'm not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I'd feel some guilt over it.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Jack D, @jon, @Truth, @Hypnotoad666, @SFG, @JerseyJeffersonian, @anonymous, @Pericles

    Well, you could certainly be evasive, or just outright lie, and maybe that might help you to land an entry level position.

    But. It won’t stop there, because then you will be under direct scrutiny all of the time by your fellow faculty members as well as by their leftist students who will rat you out like dutiful little Stasi. So, God help you if you get tripped up by relaxing enough to reveal your actual thoughts and sentiments. This is a sobering prospect.

    Yet, as commenter SFG observed, if the dominance of the cultural marxists in the universities is ever to be challenged, maybe some of that taqqiya stuff may be the only available tactical, and over the longer range, strategic avenue open to you and those similarly minded.

    Good luck.

    • Agree: Jim Christian
    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    @JerseyJeffersonian


    But. It won’t stop there, because then you will be under direct scrutiny all of the time by your fellow faculty members as well as by their leftist students who will rat you out like dutiful little Stasi. So, God help you if you get tripped up by relaxing enough to reveal your actual thoughts and sentiments. This is a sobering prospect.
     
    Great take. How to twist your inner-pretzel to present for a job? And how to compromise your soul to have to live lies as they all do? It's bigger than sobering. To me it would be a crushing of the aforementioned soul. How they rationalize it all is beyond my vision..
  182. GU says:
    @Lot
    @education realist

    “ The influx of Asians, coupled with AA and the ever increasing legacy admits, has made top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.”

    What share of white 20 year olds are at top colleges now versus 1980? I doubt it is much different. The colleges are mostly the same size to slightly larger, while the number of white 20 year olds is much lower. At the same time, more colleges are now highly selective and prestigious compared to 1980 (NYU, GW, UCI, UNC, UT Austin). So your factual premise isn’t right.

    Moreover, “non-rich whites” rarely going to top colleges has always been the case, and several generations of assortive mating has drained a fair amount of the talent from the white middle and working class.

    Chinese and Korean Americans are 1.9% of the US population and don’t have many kids. There are just too few of them to make “ top colleges almost inaccessible to non-rich whites.” And the ones coming from abroad aren’t displacing anyone, they are more than paying their own way and leading to expansion of colleges who can attract them. I don’t think that’s a good thing since higher ed is bloated and corrupting, but it also isn’t displacing anyone.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alden, @Charon, @GU, @Anonymous

    Schools like NYU, GW, UCI, UNC, UT Austin, etc. are only competitive now *precisely because* various factors have exponentially increased the difficulty of white college admissions. Affirmative Action, soft racial and ethnic quotas, Jewish nepotism, and admitting a ludicrous number of foreign undergraduates (20% at UCSD, a public university, WTF!?) has made it quite difficult for whites.

    If college admissions were still like they were in, say, 1950, or even 1975, a lot of this stuff wouldn’t be an issue.

  183. @Anonymous
    OT

    Steve:

    Why is President Trump not ordering the National Park Service to re-open the Golden Gate National Recreation Area right in Gov. "Newsom" Gruesome's backyard?

    The NPS claims to be taking guidance from local county officials on this, including the ridiculous and elitist mandate that people attend beaches and parks only locally without driving. Why even have a FEDERAL National Park Service if all they do is look to local Karens for guidance?

    IT'S STILL NOT TOO LATE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP TO ORDER A DRAMATIC OPENING OF ALL NATIONAL PARKS IN TIME FOR MEMORIAL DAY. SUCH A MOVE WOULD INSTANTLY TAKE THE WIND OUT OF THE SAILS OF THE ELITIST DICTATORS IN BLUE STATES AND COUNTIES.

    https://www.nps.gov/goga/planyourvisit/temporary-facilities-closure-advisory.htm

    Replies: @anon, @Paco Wové

    Why are you shouting at Sailer?

  184. @martin_2
    It is genetic...

    1. MRI scans of living human brains have lately revealed that Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans (Orientals for short) have larger brains than white people, with more neurones, even. There is an association between brain size and intelligence.

    2. Orientals score higher on IQ tests than white people, by around four or five IQ points. These tests were developed by white psychologists, so it is a bit of a stretch to claim that this is because the tests are culturally biased towards Orientals. If anything, any cultural bias on the tests would surely be in favour of whites.

    3. When Orientals come to live in the West, they adapt very well to Western culture and norms. They have very low rates of crime, they do well at school and acquire academic qualifications at all levels, they have low rates of substance abuse and illegitimacy. In short, they are at the top of all the positive social indices and at the bottom of all the negative social indices. They behave in exactly the way that one expects of a high IQ group of people, so the world is exactly as you would predict if the IQ data were true. There is thus no prima facie reason to dispute the IQ data.

    4. Darwin's theory of evolution, a theory that all intelligent people are supposed to accept as true at least in its broad generality, states that a species of animal, when separated into distinct colonies by some contingency such as the search for resources or natural disaster, those distinct colonies will, in the course of thousands of generations, begin to diverge from one another genetically, owing to the diverse environmental pressures they are severally subjected to. The brain is an organ like any other, and is subject to evolution just like any other. Therefore it would disprove evolution and probably prove the existence of God if by some miracle the Races of Man had all either retained the same cognitive traits as their common ancestor or else evolved in exactly the same way.

    5. I have been involved in education almost all my working life and in my extensive experience the children of poorly educated Chinese "take away people" from Fujian province in China have higher average IQ's than children of white educated upper middle class parents living in posh places like Islington. The adults can scarcely speak English so all this "their parents push them" bullshit is just bullshit.

    You can imagine how much I enjoyed telling smug educated white Labour Party Islington parents (and their children) all this whenever I got the chance. Sadly never these days. Young women used to hate to hear it the most. I can't understand why white advocates don't use the white Asian IQ gap more. After all, if anyone defends white people in all this then they are trying to say something positive about white people and are therefore a Racist.

    Replies: @Charon, @Sam Malone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Anonymous, @Menes, @Chinaman, @Anonymous

    All true, but- insufficient. It doesn’t explain bursts of creativity, or, better, creative chaos needed for revolutionary breakthroughs. Here Darwinian approach seems to be inadequate. Not wrong, just lacking.

    1. there is no g, not some quantifiable IQ. There are different, 5-15, say, types of cognitive abilities & that’s all. Forget about factor analysis & similar phlogistons- there is not a cat-mouse which is a combo of a cat & a mouse.

    2. life around us, history, world … show us that cognitive abilities differ in individuals, sexes, races, perhaps other collectives.

    3. intelligence is just one trait, now more important than before, but other traits, both measurable & non-measurable are perhaps even more important. For instance, creativity, imagination, something…

    E.M. Forster wrote his best & last novel “A Passage to India” in 1924; he died when he was 91, 1970. Why for almost half a century he had been writing only minor & trivial things? Laziness? Or muse had, alas, definitely departed.

    Most theoretical physicists are finished by their 35, max 40 (including the greatest, Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, or among truly moderns Dirac & Heisenberg). Why? We don’t know.

    With regard to intellectual creativity on highest levels we can glean from history that philosophers & mathematicians age well, while physicists are like women, especially Nordic white & Japanese- they, alas, don’t age well.

    4. A brief excursus: historically, some collectives are astonishingly not only “over-represented”, but truly incomprehensible in their creativity (“intelligence”) & influence: ancient Greeks from 700-200 BC, Italians from 1300-1600, English from 1500-1750, Germans from 1750-1850 (a rough sketch, of course). Greeks are doubtlessly the greatest genius of a people in history. How, why, …? We don’t know.

    The English had created immensely from, say, 1500 to 1900 (and swallowed a quarter of the globe in the process). How, why, …? There was a significant pre-Norman English culture, but Normans (French Vikings) had destroyed most of it & English nation had begun to form, anew, somewhere around 1350-1400. So, English made in 500 years more than Chinese in 4000 years, globally.

    Why?

    We don’t know.

    Anytime, every time, someone is prominent above average, and especially on much larger scale (see Greeks, Italians, Germans, English..). Such is life. Rise & fall. Ups & downs.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Bardon Kaldian

    A lot of intellectual innovation is based on the opportunity to work at it. If you were brilliant as a student and did much innovative work as a young man, much of your time and energy in later life gets eaten up by being a professor. You need to write up lectures, give them, grade papers, see students between classes who want to discuss papers, problems, and be mentored. That's a full-time job. There are profs who barely do any research once they get into teaching. In the sciences, your time can get eaten up by the need to run your lab. Ordering supplies, organizing the lab room for experiments, managing your lab assistants, as well teaching the labs and grading experiments.

    The most creative minds should not be burdened with teaching at all. It takes up so much of their time that they have no time to incubate ideas of their own. What's more important? Coming up with a brilliant breakthrough, or mentoring 90 minds every semester who are either going to drop out of the field or produce work that's mediocre in comparison to your own?

    We need to arrange a way for the most brilliant minds to continue to work full-time without the burden of teaching. Teaching done by the most brilliant is a waste of resources. It's the second and third tier minds who should be teaching. Furthermore, they are often the best explainers.

  185. Something that is hard to understand in the history of the sciences: Where are the Asian Isaac Newtons? There is the “Asians can’t innovate” theory although Northeast Asians are good at learning the work of people of European descent.

    • Replies: @Menschmaschine
    @Paul

    The simplest explanation is of course that some region had to be the first one - it was always implausible that several would reach the age of science and the industrial revolution at exactly the same time. This does not rule out that genetic factors like a stronger tendency for conformism played some role, but there is no reason to assume that Asians wouldn't have gotten there eventually on their own.

    Replies: @vhrm, @Paul, @MarkinLA

  186. “The conventional wisdom among the well-informed was long that GPA was a better single measure than SAT, but SAT was a good complement to GPA. But the new U of C faculty task force study found SAT dominated GPA”

    That may be but in my town’s school district there were many, many high schools where the valedictorian had straight A’s but the ACT test scores were around 21 or so.

    California is fast becoming the first Socialist state of the union.

    “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need”

    Indeed the so called Hispanics and Negroes have a lot of needs.

  187. anonymous[211] • Disclaimer says:
    @allensheep
    @anon

    It's an interesting question with these "diversity statements". I'm a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I'm not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I'd feel some guilt over it.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Jack D, @jon, @Truth, @Hypnotoad666, @SFG, @JerseyJeffersonian, @anonymous, @Pericles

    Practically #3 is still realistic.

    Not so fast. Many schools do not yet require a formal written statement with the application like the UCs do, but all will ask you at some point during the interview process (if you make it that far) ‘what are your thoughts are on diversity and inclusion’ if not something more specific like ‘what will you do to raise the proportion of underrespresented groups in your field.’ At probably 70% of places this question will be asked by, among others, an administrator or dean specifically charged with D&I. How much weight that administrator’s assessment will be given varies tremendously by institution and department. But either way, have an answer ready to go, and that answer should not be “I really beleive in diversity of thought and viewpoint” if you want the job.

  188. Lin says:
    @Anon7
    @Steve Sailer

    Sorry about that.

    I asked my son who the smartest math students in grad school are, and he said Asians. Among the Asians, he says the Chinese are the smartest. If you ask him why that is, he shrugs and says their N is bigger, 1.4 billion Chinese vs. 0.33 billion Americans.

    And they send the cream of their crop here. There are only just so many spots at the top. Game over.

    Replies: @Anon, @PiltdownMan, @Lin

    And they send the cream of their crop here.

    Any stats on how creamy are the Chinese students went to US universities?

    In 2015,”..China’s prestigious Tsinghua University has bested the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to become the top school in the world for engineering research..”

    https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/10/08/chinese-university-tops-mit-in-engineering-rankings/

    • Replies: @Anon7
    @Lin

    This doesn’t surprise me, many people predicted this in the 1990’s when so much of the world’s manufacturing went to China.

    At first, people laugh and say so what, China makes the best pig iron in the world. But the country doing all The manufacturing eventually needs the best engineers and the money for schools goes where the manufacturing is. The Chinese invested heavily and they own the best now.

    As far as I can tell, they’ve been less successful with having the best medical schools in spite of spending a fortune in collaborations with US schools.

  189. I generally think that Asian parents are much more likely to invest in test prep than white students. Asians follow the middleman minority strategy. It’s no secret that they put much greater emphasis on educational performance. I only knew a couple kids who did test prep in high school, but I’ve read about how Asian community groups provide test prep for Asian students (and demands from Black and Latino activists to make that test prep available to everyone).

    I think the tendency among white parents is to focus on the interpersonal and social aspects of childhood development. They want their kids to have fun and become well-rounded individuals. There’s a greater emphasis on extracurricular activities. More critically, these extracurricular activities are perceived as an end in themselves, rather than simply another chance to display excellence on a college application.

    Of course, these are generalizations about tendencies, but the test scores aren’t all that different either, so small difference may account for them.

    However, what I find fascinating is that white students constitute a much larger and less-selected group. White students run the gamut from very poor to very rich, but still perform very well on average. Asian households have a much higher median income than white households, and a huge proportion have highly-driven immigrant parents who came here due to tenacity and/or high skills. They’re also more likely to be attend test prep and perform rigorous study routines.

    In other words, it’s actually quite impressive how consistently well white students score as a large group against the much smaller and more affluent progeny of high-achieving Asian Americans. For seemingly trying so much harder, Asian students aren’t actually doing all that much better. If you were to take out the subset of very affluent white students, I think their scores would probably blow everyone else out of the water.

    • Replies: @XYZ (no Mr.)
    @somebody_somewhere

    I actually think SAT preparation is quite fine, and think Asian-Americans should be praised for their fine scholastic acheivements. I do dislike the fact 'Asian' and 'Asian-American' are lumped together for reporting. Because I do think at least 5 to 10 percent of test takers are not American citizens, or of unknown citizenship.

    But absolutely, I 100 percent agree with you. As the largest subset of young Americans, most who have families who have been in this land for generations, white Americans do well for themselves.

    Which is why I continuously say that we don't need to import talent, except perhaps in the most rare cases. We have plenty of good home grown ability here to work with.

    , @AaronB
    @somebody_somewhere


    In other words, it’s actually quite impressive how consistently well white students score as a large group against the much smaller and more affluent progeny of high-achieving Asian Americans. For seemingly trying so much harder, Asian students aren’t actually doing all that much better. If you were to take out the subset of very affluent white students, I think their scores would probably blow everyone else out of the water
     
    That's a good point that occurred to me as well.

    In general, you can get like 80% of the results with reasonable effort. To leap past that you have to put in super human efforts. In other words it doesn't progress proportionately - you may be putting in 10 times the effort that got you to 80%, and only get an additional 10% better.

    The real question as a society we have to ask ourselves - is it worth it? What's a good life/work balance?

    Do we want to be like Asians - if we know for sure that working as hard as Asians will get us the same results, should we do it? Or do we have other values in life?

    Asians are at a particular point in their history - they need to prove themselves, so for the time being, they're willing to work like crazy just to be a bit more competitive.

    Are we at the same point in our history? Or are we at a point where we can start thinking about life/work balance, after centuries of incredible achievements.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  190. @Gimeiyo
    @education realist



    Couple that with something that Americans, regardless of race, really can’t comprehend, which is the hours and hours and hours and hours that otherwise ordinary immigrant Asian kids put into the SAT.
     
    I think you're confusing cram school with SAT prep. Cram school isn't exclusively focused on SAT prep -- it's also just about racking up good grades at school in general by getting ahead of the curriculum. If university admissions were based 100% on test scores, yeah, it probably would be pretty much test focused. But the people who run these things aren't stupid -- they know grades factor in too.

    As a result, although Asian American schoolchildren do some test prep, they don't need as much test-specific prep. Blacks/Hispanics apparently do more than Whites/Asians.

    http://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/salon/files/2011/11/Racial_differences_SFJ_89_2_Alon-final.pdf

    Back when vocabulary was a big part of the test (i.e. when I was young) I think English vocab was the biggest focus of Asian test prep, since a lot of Asians grow up in households where the parents spoke more limited/less fluent English. Probably less of an issue now, though, since more Asians are second or third generation and the test itself deemphasizes vocabulary.

    Replies: @education realist

    I work at an SAT academy, and I’m not confused at all. SAT prep in Asian schools is at *minimum* five hours a day, four days a week, with the 5th day being a test. For 8 weeks. that’s on top of classes they take in the math class they’ll be taking the next year, where they go through the whole book in advance, often taking the tests that the math teacher they’ll have next year uses.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @education realist

    and with all that cramming how do they actually score on the SAT when they take it?

    and what's the improvement curve from day the 2nd test to the 8th?

    Also does your school play it straight or do they give a harder than usual test up front so that they can show improvement? (i heard that's a plot at some US test prep programs, but i haven't looked into it)

    , @stillCARealist
    @education realist

    Do tell. What is an Asian school? What is an SAT academy? Is all this test prep happening during the summer? This extra math class they're taking, are we talking about HS Juniors preparing for their senior year, or for their first year of college?

    My kids did a PSAT prep class and it was 8 weeks long, but they only met once a week and the rest of the time the kids were supposed to be practicing and studying on their own. This class was sufficient to get them through the SAT as well, with extra practice tests available. Even this level of prep was a battle to get them to buckle down and get through it.

    Replies: @education realist

    , @Alden
    @education realist

    That’s a trick asian college students do. They know they’ll have to take X102 next year. So they take X102 at the community college this year and drop out on the last possible day.

    So when they take X102 they are really repeating a course they’ve already taken. And of course they buy all next year’s text books and study them before classes begin. Whites can do it too. Why not?

    Replies: @GazaPlanet

  191. In Harvard Crimson admission post, there are date for SAT scores on everything except Jewish. They don’t look at any religious group score btw.

    A half of whites are Jewish, it would be interesting to know the scores. It must be a well kept secret because Ron Unz didn’t had this information wich is available for any race so he had to rely on indirect information (semi-finalist, prizes, competitions)

  192. @Anon
    The same thing has happened in programming interviews in Silicon Valley. Over the past decade, technical interviews have been thoroughly gamed by Chinese H1B's, to the point where you have subscription services, like LeetCode.com, that coach experienced developers for 1-2 months, just so they can be ready to interview. Not entry-level developers. Experienced developers, who have 5+ years under their belt.

    Everyone knows the system is broken, but people are too politically correct to acknowledge the problem with Chinese H1B's. Spergy younger American developers -- who have never known another system -- will often brag about their achievements on LeetCode, which is basically the equivalent of taking pride in a SAT-prep course.

    The technical interviews themselves started because you had Indian H1B's that would blatantly lie about everything on their resume, along with having someone sit in on an initial technical phone screen for them.

    Using H1B's, it strips out any sense of good faith or honesty in the interview process.

    Replies: @Lowe, @Neoconned

    This is a gold comment.

  193. Anonymous[284] • Disclaimer says:
    @martin_2
    It is genetic...

    1. MRI scans of living human brains have lately revealed that Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans (Orientals for short) have larger brains than white people, with more neurones, even. There is an association between brain size and intelligence.

    2. Orientals score higher on IQ tests than white people, by around four or five IQ points. These tests were developed by white psychologists, so it is a bit of a stretch to claim that this is because the tests are culturally biased towards Orientals. If anything, any cultural bias on the tests would surely be in favour of whites.

    3. When Orientals come to live in the West, they adapt very well to Western culture and norms. They have very low rates of crime, they do well at school and acquire academic qualifications at all levels, they have low rates of substance abuse and illegitimacy. In short, they are at the top of all the positive social indices and at the bottom of all the negative social indices. They behave in exactly the way that one expects of a high IQ group of people, so the world is exactly as you would predict if the IQ data were true. There is thus no prima facie reason to dispute the IQ data.

    4. Darwin's theory of evolution, a theory that all intelligent people are supposed to accept as true at least in its broad generality, states that a species of animal, when separated into distinct colonies by some contingency such as the search for resources or natural disaster, those distinct colonies will, in the course of thousands of generations, begin to diverge from one another genetically, owing to the diverse environmental pressures they are severally subjected to. The brain is an organ like any other, and is subject to evolution just like any other. Therefore it would disprove evolution and probably prove the existence of God if by some miracle the Races of Man had all either retained the same cognitive traits as their common ancestor or else evolved in exactly the same way.

    5. I have been involved in education almost all my working life and in my extensive experience the children of poorly educated Chinese "take away people" from Fujian province in China have higher average IQ's than children of white educated upper middle class parents living in posh places like Islington. The adults can scarcely speak English so all this "their parents push them" bullshit is just bullshit.

    You can imagine how much I enjoyed telling smug educated white Labour Party Islington parents (and their children) all this whenever I got the chance. Sadly never these days. Young women used to hate to hear it the most. I can't understand why white advocates don't use the white Asian IQ gap more. After all, if anyone defends white people in all this then they are trying to say something positive about white people and are therefore a Racist.

    Replies: @Charon, @Sam Malone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Anonymous, @Menes, @Chinaman, @Anonymous

    All of what you write is fine and dandy but Im still at a loss developing a reasonable basis for justifying the fact that white taxpayers in Iowa are asked to support universities whose student bodies are almost 25% foreign born Chinese. I know the common justification is that the universities need these students to stay afloat financially. However, this Corona crisis has revealed that most of these “costs” are adminstrative bloat – pensions for system retirees, high paying Director of Diversity jobs, etc.

    There are all sorts of opportunities to cut costs such as online course delivery. Do we really need a professor of mechanical engineering to walk into a classrom 25 days a semester to teach thermodynamics? Couldnt “great lecture series” versions of these lectures be recorded and delivered to students on some online platform. Do we really need 4 different people at each university to teach introductory thermodynamics. I looked through my nephews Introduction to Thermodynamics textbook and it was basically the same material from my text from 30 years ago. However, he spent nearly 200 dollars on a new textbook. Why is this model of educational delivery still considered reasonable?

  194. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:

    Rubio did the Armenian move at University of Florida which like UCLA has to reject 10s of thousands every year, but by state law must accept JUCO transfers in some bizarre anachronism. The Faculty were apoplectic about the quality of the students, but as with so much of modern thought paralyzed from publicly denouncing the scam by cowardice and fear of appearing elitist racist ist ist etc.

  195. @Anon
    @Anon7

    Love the use of an anecdote as solid evidence.

    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/engineering

    Favourite coping mechanisms by most commenter here: they only send their best here, they don’t do well later in life, they can’t apply that knowledge to real world advancements.

    Replies: @Charon, @Anon7

    Love the use of an anecdote as solid evidence.

    I know, right? OTOH, the world of the top applied math graduate schools in the world is not a big universe, and they’re all here (for now), except for Oxford and Cambridge. And (until recently) they all participated in the same conferences and collaborated on papers, etc.

    But yeah, just an anecdote of what it looks like from the viewpoint of a peon grad student. I wonder what it looks like in other STEM disciplines? Anecdotally.

  196. @Polymath
    The SAT rewards practice. By far the best “study” method is taking sample exams. Most students who do NOT practice a lot will gain 60-70 points the second time they take the SAT and another 30-40 the third time. The correct method is to take a few tests UNTIMED first, making absolutely sure you give yourself every possible chance to struggle with a problem before giving up, to find out what you don’t know.

    Then, timed versions where you do the best you can in the allotted time and then see how much more you can improve with more time on a separate answer sheet, checking over your work carefully for errors and misunderstandings. Finally, speed drills.

    There are 3 requirements to score well and you MUST master them in that order:
    1. Knowledge
    2. Accuracy
    3. Speed

    Replies: @Charon, @Jack D

    The SAT is primarily an intelligence test – intelligent people also tend to be knowledgeable. People who are highly intelligent are also said to be “quick” – they process problems and come up with answers faster than people who are “slow”. For the Math SAT there are various shortcut methods that you can memorize to allow you to arrive at the correct answer faster. If you are going to sit there and methodically set up equations and solve for x you are not going to get thru all the problems, especially if you are kind of “slow” to begin with. So knowledge and speed are two sides of the same coin.

    Accuracy is really the hardest one. Both of my kids (and I) scored in the high 700s but not 800 because we would always make at least 1 or 2 dumb mistakes. As a practical matter this makes no difference – if MIT likes your app with a 780, they are not going to like you any better with an 800. They know full well that the difference between 780 and 800 is 1 incorrect answer. If they don’t like your app, then an 800 is not going to change their mind. They put a huge # of 1600 SAT applications in their reject pile.

  197. @Rob
    @Carol

    MCAT already got nerfed. The new scoring scale is silly, from 118 to 132 for each of 4 sections, means set to 125. So the overall score is 472 to 528. The goal must be to obscure the scores for less intelligent minorities. According to Kaptest.com:


    The AAMC stresses that this scale emphasizes the importance of the central portion of the score distribution, where most students score (around 125 per section, or 500 total), rather than putting an undue focus on the high end of the scale.
     
    So they’re basically admitting that they’re providing cover for schools to admit minorities who nearly reach. The MCAT was scored for three sections, physical science, biological science, and verbal reasoning each from 1 or maybe 3 to 15. I don’t think anyone ever got a 45, but I could be wrong.

    Along with 2 essays assigned a combined letter grade. The top essay score was a T. I got a 36S, and only 2.3% did better, maybe 2% got a 36. Once you knew the material, it was basically an IQ test. I’m pretty sure the essays were intended to sniff out WrongThink. One of my essays was something like ‘when should an oppressed group be expected to advocate for themselves, and when is it appropriate for others to do so. I picked early women’s rights warriors and the civil rights movement and sounded exactly like a liberal, but an analytical one.

    New MCAT’s sections are “Biological and Biochemical Foundations of Living Systems,” Chemical and Physical Foundations of Biological Systems,” Psychological, Social, and Biological Foundations of Behavior,” and “ Critical Analysis and Reasoning Skills.” There should be biochem on the test, though if you learned organic chemistry, you’ll learn biochem fine. Hell, just about every reaction is catalyzed, so you don’t even have to decide which groups are more reactive, what temperature to run the reaction, what solvent to use...I can see foundations of behavior, but unless the word “heritability” shows up, it probably doesn’t touch on the real bases of behavior.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Unladen Swallow

    Interesting, I remember reading in the early 2000s that a majority of black medical school graduates never passed the state board certification (51%) compared to only 12 percent for whites. Are those certifications being dumbed down as well now?

  198. @Hodag
    The future is cram schools for everyone.

    The eldest lil Hodag got into a highly competitive junior high program for next fall (bragging). You get to start high school in seventh grade and the last two years is all AP and taxpayer funded college work at Loyola or Uof Chicago.

    Almost every parent of smart kids wants them in this program. 1/3 of the admission criteria is an IQ test. The results are published and this year the score to get in went up 5 or 6 IQ points, just like when NY was forced to scrap the IQ test for kindergarten. I wonder what the class will look like. I guess mostly Asian since they test prep like crazy.

    Replies: @Anon7

    “The future is cram schools for everyone.”

    Yech, that sounds awful and maybe true. This is why we all need our own countries. All of us national groups have our preferred HBD-evolved ways of doing civilization (if indeed your national group does civilization – I don’t think everyone does) and not everyone brings the cream to the top with standardized tests for which you can cram.

    As Asians get more places in our top universities, the “culture” will shift away from ours and toward theirs.

    So yeah, if you want to get into grad school, go to a cram school.

    Congrats on lil Hodag, btw. My son did something similar in academics, if less formalized. I’m not sure if he ever did anything like cramming; it was more like watering a plant. He loves math.

  199. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Lot

    In your neighborhood, UC San Diego undergrad is only 19% white American, but 37% Asian-American and 19% foreign (mostly Asian), so about 2.5 to 1 more Asians than whites in suburban La Jolla, CA.

    Replies: @Lot

    UCSD is especially Asian because it is STEM focused. 25% of undergrads are majoring in life sciences, 4% in humanities. It also draws most students from outside San Diego. It is also prestigious within its specialties in partly thanks to its very smart NE Asian-American students.

    San Diego State serves as the local generalist quasi-UC because of UCSD’s specialization, leading to SDSU having much higher SATs than the other Cal States. It is 34% non-hispanic white and 13% Asian. (Adjust both upward if you want to exclude other, unknown, mixed race, and foreign which total 18%.)

    https://www.thoughtco.com/sat-scores-for-admission-to-cal-state-788606

    Not sure I’d call La Jolla suburban anymore, too many apartments, office towers, walkable neighborhoods. It is more like a cleaner and more wholesome version of Santa Monica. The only areas that really feel suburban still are areas too ultra-rich and/or too mountainous for denser development.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @Lot

    Why are there so few East Asian race engineers or technical directors in F1, which is the pinnacle of motorsport, and any Japanese teams that do enter F1 are actually ran by white people, and Wall Street is ran by Whites, Indians, or Jews, and Jews, Indians, or Whites like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos run Silicon Valley. In fact you have an Indian as the former head of Deutsche Bank and a Black Africa as an CEO of Credit Suisse, but no East Asian as the CEO of any large European or US bank.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  200. We’re back to “nurture vs nature” here…
    Asians performing better is not just IQ, They work harder and more diligently than whites, black, Hispanics, men from Mars pick a race… Jews of course are their own catagory and have the IQ but fall victim to the pit falls of American culture more so than Asians, partying, laziness other distractions. Asians as a culture are obsessed with school performance from K through college and later on into job performance. Look at the Tiger mom phenomena. This is another example of where “experts” fuck up everything! Blaming Meth or opioids for other races under achieving? The other reason is that college is a big business and no longer exists for the purpose of education but to indoctrinate as we all know. They want as many bodies on campus from genius to dolt, doesn’t matter, and the money is guaranteed regardless of whether or not the morons they want to admit pass or fail, they care not! Also the left believes if you throw any minority in to college, they will become successful like whites and Asians and the iSteve crowd knows all too well how that works out! They don’t want to use SAT’s because not enough zombies can score well on them!

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @VinnyVette

    How well do corporate promotion performance correlate with SAT scores anong East Asians? East Asian overperformance in High School vs. relative mediocrity in college and the corporate world seems to the career equivalent of a premature ejaculation. And as for Jewish dysfunction, maybe that is due to higher neuroticism?

    Replies: @VinnyVette

  201. @allensheep
    @anon

    It's an interesting question with these "diversity statements". I'm a PhD student and thinking about going onto the faculty job market next year, and I can see three options:

    1. Write a truthful, but perhaps somewhat evasive essay.

    2. Write an extremely-SJW essay (i.e. just lie to get through it).

    3. Avoid schools that require such a statement.

    I'm not sure. Practically #3 is still realistic. #2 is probably the smartest, but I'd feel some guilt over it.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Jack D, @jon, @Truth, @Hypnotoad666, @SFG, @JerseyJeffersonian, @anonymous, @Pericles

    Option 2, of course. Atone for your guilt once you’re in by not granting tenure to SJW assistant professors, promoting rightwingers, and so on. If you need advice, don’t hesitate to ask.

  202. @Alice
    @Anon

    There aren't any white middle class kids who can afford to go to the UC anymore anyway, and they certainly can't afford SAT prep. the white kids going were kids of Woke Karens.

    Cost to go to Cal for 1 year: $40k in-state
    https://admissions.berkeley.edu/cost

    Estimated Student Budget 2019-2020
    CA RESIDENT NONRESIDENT*
    Tuition and Fees $14,254 $14,254
    Nonresident supplemental tuition - $29,754
    Student Health Insurance Plan** $3,286 $3,286
    *Room and board $17,220 $17,220
    Food $1,644 $1,644
    Books and supplies $870 $870
    Personal $1,876 $1,876
    Transportation $400 $400
    TOTAL $39,550 $69,304
    *Calculated based on students living in the residence halls.


    That's right, it's 2k a month to live in Unit 2. living in Berkeley is not cheaper.

    UC San Diego: $25k a year if you live at home

    Cost of Attendance Living with Parents On Campus Off Campus
    CA Resident Tuition/Feesa, d, e (View Components) $14,451 $14,451 $14,451
    Housing and Meals $6,579 $14,295 $13,614
    Books and Supplies $1,128 $1,128 $1,128
    Transportation $1,506 $534 $1,104
    Personal Expenses $1,647 $1,479 $1,590
    Estimated CA Resident Cost Totalsb $25,311 $31,887 $31,887

    Replies: @Anon, @Hibernian, @RAZ, @Pericles, @Anonymous

    Crazy. Among other things, paying $6579 for meals at UCSD when you’re living at home sticks in my craw. For a 40 week year, that’s $33 per day. Does that include a sommelier and a nice bottle of red?

    Imagine having your Berkeley kid turning into an antifa rat. All that money down the toilet.

  203. @XYZ (no Mr.)
    @Jack D

    Isn't this the rationalisation of all those black Americans you dislike so much? Many of them feel our system is corrupt...in a different way. So your philosophy certainly gives them moral sanction to lie.

    Replies: @Pericles, @bomag, @Anonymous

    Don’t hate the playa, hate the game.

  204. If they are so intellectually superior why do they have to spend so much time studying?

    Supererogatory effort and intelligence have very little correlation. Jordan Peterson probably has a graph on it.

  205. In my large Texas city adjacent very highly regarded local school district, suburban middle and upper class, a listing of 2020 Outstanding Students of Merit showed about 18, one from each high school.

    Every single face was Asian. Most east Asian, a few south Asian. While there are many Asians living in the district, this is not reflective of the racial makeup overall.

    Of course it may be accurate, depending on what is measured.

    One factor may be parental discipline. Tiger Moms and similar. Most secondary school success is a result of doing homework, reading, studying, paying attention, being on time. I suspect also being involved in extra curricular programs also. Staying out of trouble.

    Asians in general seem to have more family discipline and aim for higher education. There are many international residents out here, most from educated families in the energy business or professions. They know education is highly important.

    Whether Asian kids internalize values important for scholastic success better than others is a good question. Teens go wild to a great degree, but some manage to cope with their educational burdens also. Most Asians have two parent households. Basic family structure and enforced values like discipline seem key. Better educated parents tend to also have these values to pass on.

    Test scores reflect all of this. While blacks probably get a disproportionate share of athletic scholarships, due to merit, without good study discipline and basic foundational knowledge that leads to a higher dropout rate. Athletics is as bad or worse for long term career potential as say, entertainment. Other than coaching, teaching. Even then. Learned skills are more important than talent, though pop culture would have kids think otherwise.

  206. @somebody_somewhere
    I generally think that Asian parents are much more likely to invest in test prep than white students. Asians follow the middleman minority strategy. It's no secret that they put much greater emphasis on educational performance. I only knew a couple kids who did test prep in high school, but I've read about how Asian community groups provide test prep for Asian students (and demands from Black and Latino activists to make that test prep available to everyone).

    I think the tendency among white parents is to focus on the interpersonal and social aspects of childhood development. They want their kids to have fun and become well-rounded individuals. There's a greater emphasis on extracurricular activities. More critically, these extracurricular activities are perceived as an end in themselves, rather than simply another chance to display excellence on a college application.

    Of course, these are generalizations about tendencies, but the test scores aren't all that different either, so small difference may account for them.

    However, what I find fascinating is that white students constitute a much larger and less-selected group. White students run the gamut from very poor to very rich, but still perform very well on average. Asian households have a much higher median income than white households, and a huge proportion have highly-driven immigrant parents who came here due to tenacity and/or high skills. They're also more likely to be attend test prep and perform rigorous study routines.

    In other words, it's actually quite impressive how consistently well white students score as a large group against the much smaller and more affluent progeny of high-achieving Asian Americans. For seemingly trying so much harder, Asian students aren't actually doing all that much better. If you were to take out the subset of very affluent white students, I think their scores would probably blow everyone else out of the water.

    Replies: @XYZ (no Mr.), @AaronB

    I actually think SAT preparation is quite fine, and think Asian-Americans should be praised for their fine scholastic acheivements. I do dislike the fact ‘Asian’ and ‘Asian-American’ are lumped together for reporting. Because I do think at least 5 to 10 percent of test takers are not American citizens, or of unknown citizenship.

    But absolutely, I 100 percent agree with you. As the largest subset of young Americans, most who have families who have been in this land for generations, white Americans do well for themselves.

    Which is why I continuously say that we don’t need to import talent, except perhaps in the most rare cases. We have plenty of good home grown ability here to work with.

  207. @Wilkey
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    I agree, to a large extent. It would be stupid to write off Asian intelligence and work ethic and entirely. It’s pretty damn impressive and should be emulated.

    However...if you look at actual career performance - in business, arts, entertainment, politics, whatever - the reality is that Asians, outside of tech, just don’t really do as well as you would expect based on their SAT scores or admission rates to top colleges. If they really were that awesome they’d be even more dominant than Jews and, well, they aren’t. They aren’t even close. They do better than whites overall, to be sure, but not so much better that they deserve to comprise 30-40-50% of the Ivy League student body, or even the UCLA student body. Which is why I can understand why the UC system would choose to ditch the tests. If the end result is that a larger proportion of the student body ends up being white then it might actually improve the UC system.

    Replies: @Stephen Dodge, @AaronB, @Anon

    Asians are like 25% of top schools, but have won only 5% of Nobels. (Equal to their share of the population, not their share of top schools.)

    So clearly Asian attendance in top schools does not reflect their ability.

    In any event, the SAT no longer does what it was intended – screen for innate ability.

    The SAT was a cultural artifact – assuming a certain type of population with certain attitudes to study, it was a decent tool to screen for innate ability.

    But it only works in that kind of culture – I guess mid-20th century white America, with its particular attitude to studying.

    It is not a useful tool for screening for innate ability in a culture of grinds. The myth that you cannot study for the SAT has now been definitively disproven by Asians.

    Now that America is a different place, with a population with different values, we need to come up with a better way to screen for innate ability.

    I think admitting anyone who wants to go to any college, while flunking those who can’t compete in the first year, is not such a bad idea. Universities will acquire reputations that will scare away those who aren’t fit for the most part.

    Perhaps the only requirement should be an interview – like they do in Oxford, and used to do to select officers in the WW2 German Army.

    It may be the American obsession with scientific testing is less able to select for talent than more simple human systems like interviews, and the future will see a return to such systems.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @AaronB


    Asians are like 25% of top schools, but have won only 5% of Nobels. (Equal to their share of the population, not their share of top schools.)
    So clearly Asian attendance in top schools does not reflect their ability.
     
    Nobels are a lagging indicator. Most of the winners of the Nobel prize have been born over 80 years ago by now, many others are long dead. So the demographics at that time was what mattered, and East Asian countries were largely much poorer with the exception of Japan.

    We will likely see many more East Asian Nobel prize winners this century, but then again the Nobel committee is becoming more politicised with more "affirmative action" pressure on them, too, in recent years.

    Replies: @Paul, @Biff

  208. res says:
    @PiltdownMan
    Somewhat OT: Why did the SAT average dip to a minimum in the five years after I took it (1974?) What was going on?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @res

    I think the Wikipedia explanation is on target.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#1960s_and_1970s_score_declines

    starting in the mid-1960s and continuing until the early 1980s, SAT scores declined: the average verbal score dropped by about 50 points, and the average math score fell by about 30 points. By the late 1970s, only the upper third of test takers were doing as well as the upper half of those taking the SAT in 1963. From 1961 to 1977, the number of SATs taken per year doubled, suggesting that the decline could be explained by demographic changes in the group of students taking the SAT. Commissioned by the College Board, an independent study of the decline found that most (up to about 75%) of the test decline in the 1960s could be explained by compositional changes in the group of students taking the test; however, only about 25 percent of the 1970s decrease in test scores could similarly be explained.[56] Later analyses suggested that up to 40 percent of the 1970s decline in scores could be explained by demographic changes, leaving unknown at least some of the reasons for the decline.[62]

  209. @Bardon Kaldian
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    I'll just repeat what I already said:

    a) Bloom was a very erudite litcrit. I've read ca. 10 of his books & I think he was, mostly, right re imaginative literature (some omissions & hyperbolas aside), while he was mostly wrong about religion and similar stuff. I've read some Trilling, too- not bad. I didn't read other guys.

    b) Bloom & comp. were not original or profound thinkers in their respective fields. For deep stuff in that area, one has to go to Mikhail Bakhtin, Bruno Snell, Ernst Curtius, Erich Auerbach, Albin Lesky and, perhaps, Northrop Frye.

    Bloom was brilliant, just- his brilliance was of an eclectic erudite literary mind for an educated audience. There was probably some Jewish nepotism in his case, but, in my opinion, it was not essential.

    Anyway, Jewish or Gentile- Bloom was, warts and all, a force for the good. Unlike Foucault, Derrida & other Franco-Heideggerians.

    Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease

    Well I’d agree with you about Harold Bloom — more than anything else he was a remarkable resource, a guy who read pretty much really everything in his entire field, and managed to keep it all at his fingertips. A rather superhuman feat. I think his Shakespeare criticism is often original and insightful. I grow impatient when he gets oracular, and I’m skeptical of his grander theories, but you have to allow a mind like that its indulgences.

    As for the rest, it seems like I was getting into something that’s rather perpendicular to your original point, so I’ll leave it be unless you want to dig into it some more…

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    Well....I don't want to dig into anything. However, I've noticed that one of my best comments hadn't been posted.

    Strange ....

    https://i.postimg.cc/j5grR0Tp/MFWP-They-Live.jpg


    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e9/c8/f2/e9c8f2181a21f15bf6d4b9a914276445.gif

  210. @somebody_somewhere
    I generally think that Asian parents are much more likely to invest in test prep than white students. Asians follow the middleman minority strategy. It's no secret that they put much greater emphasis on educational performance. I only knew a couple kids who did test prep in high school, but I've read about how Asian community groups provide test prep for Asian students (and demands from Black and Latino activists to make that test prep available to everyone).

    I think the tendency among white parents is to focus on the interpersonal and social aspects of childhood development. They want their kids to have fun and become well-rounded individuals. There's a greater emphasis on extracurricular activities. More critically, these extracurricular activities are perceived as an end in themselves, rather than simply another chance to display excellence on a college application.

    Of course, these are generalizations about tendencies, but the test scores aren't all that different either, so small difference may account for them.

    However, what I find fascinating is that white students constitute a much larger and less-selected group. White students run the gamut from very poor to very rich, but still perform very well on average. Asian households have a much higher median income than white households, and a huge proportion have highly-driven immigrant parents who came here due to tenacity and/or high skills. They're also more likely to be attend test prep and perform rigorous study routines.

    In other words, it's actually quite impressive how consistently well white students score as a large group against the much smaller and more affluent progeny of high-achieving Asian Americans. For seemingly trying so much harder, Asian students aren't actually doing all that much better. If you were to take out the subset of very affluent white students, I think their scores would probably blow everyone else out of the water.

    Replies: @XYZ (no Mr.), @AaronB

    In other words, it’s actually quite impressive how consistently well white students score as a large group against the much smaller and more affluent progeny of high-achieving Asian Americans. For seemingly trying so much harder, Asian students aren’t actually doing all that much better. If you were to take out the subset of very affluent white students, I think their scores would probably blow everyone else out of the water

    That’s a good point that occurred to me as well.

    In general, you can get like 80% of the results with reasonable effort. To leap past that you have to put in super human efforts. In other words it doesn’t progress proportionately – you may be putting in 10 times the effort that got you to 80%, and only get an additional 10% better.

    The real question as a society we have to ask ourselves – is it worth it? What’s a good life/work balance?

    Do we want to be like Asians – if we know for sure that working as hard as Asians will get us the same results, should we do it? Or do we have other values in life?

    Asians are at a particular point in their history – they need to prove themselves, so for the time being, they’re willing to work like crazy just to be a bit more competitive.

    Are we at the same point in our history? Or are we at a point where we can start thinking about life/work balance, after centuries of incredible achievements.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @AaronB


    Do we want to be like Asians – if we know for sure that working as hard as Asians will get us the same results, should we do it?
     
    https://northfieldneighbors.today/images/gifs/clint%20hell%20no.gif
  211. International Jew [AKA "Hebrew National"] says:

    Comparing the color schemes in a politically correct graph/chart against those of, here, “Unsilenced Science”, I can’t help but laugh. Looking at the first, I have to keep referring to the legend every two seconds. In the second, I have to consult the legend once (at most!) It’s hella racist and even sexist though — pink for women!

  212. vhrm says:
    @education realist
    @Gimeiyo

    I work at an SAT academy, and I'm not confused at all. SAT prep in Asian schools is at *minimum* five hours a day, four days a week, with the 5th day being a test. For 8 weeks. that's on top of classes they take in the math class they'll be taking the next year, where they go through the whole book in advance, often taking the tests that the math teacher they'll have next year uses.

    Replies: @vhrm, @stillCARealist, @Alden

    and with all that cramming how do they actually score on the SAT when they take it?

    and what’s the improvement curve from day the 2nd test to the 8th?

    Also does your school play it straight or do they give a harder than usual test up front so that they can show improvement? (i heard that’s a plot at some US test prep programs, but i haven’t looked into it)

  213. @Sam Malone
    @martin_2

    Great post. And you're right, I don't know why we don't highlight the oriental-European gap more - as you say, for anyone to disagree would mean defending whites and devaluing Asian achievements.

    Replies: @Znzn

    Brb finding pictures of the firebombing of Tokyo from the interwebs……

  214. International Jew [AKA "Hebrew National"] says:
    @James Speaks
    @Steve Sailer

    My experience with both the SAT and GRE before 1982 was that the quantitive part measured how perfectly you could do tenth grade math.

    Replies: @International Jew

    I took the GRE in 1980 and it had something called “logical reasoning” which was quite hard and genuinely interesting. I spent some fun evenings in the dorms going over practice problems with a few friends.
    Also, the top score on each test was 900, when 800 was already pretty far out on the tail.

    Having a really deep high end is actually not that necessary on the GRE because anyone smart enough to score really really high will have already come to the attention of a professor who’s well enough connected to place him into a top graduate institution.

    • Replies: @Faraday's Bobcat
    @International Jew


    Having a really deep high end is actually not that necessary on the GRE because anyone smart enough to score really really high will have already come to the attention of a professor who’s well enough connected to place him into a top graduate institution.
     
    2250 GRE in a year long ago when the average was 1581, and I didn't come to anyone's attention. I went to a big state school where the professors were busy teaching 200-student sections and groveling for NSF grants, not cultivating young scholars.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @education realist, @Alice

  215. Znzn says:
    @Lot
    @Steve Sailer

    UCSD is especially Asian because it is STEM focused. 25% of undergrads are majoring in life sciences, 4% in humanities. It also draws most students from outside San Diego. It is also prestigious within its specialties in partly thanks to its very smart NE Asian-American students.

    San Diego State serves as the local generalist quasi-UC because of UCSD’s specialization, leading to SDSU having much higher SATs than the other Cal States. It is 34% non-hispanic white and 13% Asian. (Adjust both upward if you want to exclude other, unknown, mixed race, and foreign which total 18%.)

    https://www.thoughtco.com/sat-scores-for-admission-to-cal-state-788606

    Not sure I’d call La Jolla suburban anymore, too many apartments, office towers, walkable neighborhoods. It is more like a cleaner and more wholesome version of Santa Monica. The only areas that really feel suburban still are areas too ultra-rich and/or too mountainous for denser development.

    Replies: @Znzn

    Why are there so few East Asian race engineers or technical directors in F1, which is the pinnacle of motorsport, and any Japanese teams that do enter F1 are actually ran by white people, and Wall Street is ran by Whites, Indians, or Jews, and Jews, Indians, or Whites like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos run Silicon Valley. In fact you have an Indian as the former head of Deutsche Bank and a Black Africa as an CEO of Credit Suisse, but no East Asian as the CEO of any large European or US bank.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Znzn

    Maybe East Asians are racially and culturally incompatible with the rest of the human race?

    After all, although Indian and Black African immigrants do quite well in White nations, their own home nations are doing a good deal . . . worse . . . than the East Asian region.

    This tells me that East Asian individuals can be very high-performing in their own lands, and among their own racial-cultural mind-set. It stands to reason, because East Asian CEOs, managerial talent, and governance, as well as Asian chief-engineers and Asian head-researchers make these societies successful, no one else.

    East Asians, however, struggle mightily to make headway in other cultural milieux.

    As an aggregate group, East Asians do well anywhere, but as individuals, East Asians are mediocre anywhere outside North East Asia, South East Asia or Africa. They are middle-tier material in most white economies, only coming into their own when starting companies in Silicon Valley, and other fields where culture matters less than usual.

    Does the central thesis, that Easy Asians, and by extension even Asians in the West, are very alien and incompatible to the rest of humanity, hold any water?

    Replies: @128, @vhrm, @Bardon Kaldian, @Anon

  216. @Buffalo Joe
    Two things, from what I read in the California papers, dropping SAT/ACT and grades for admission is because of the COVID-19 disruption of classes. I did not get the sense that this is permanent, but temporary things often become permanent where the left dominates. So maybe COVID-19 was a convenient excuse. Teachers and coaches often have a solid opinion of how a student will do in college. Students that devote time to study and practice usually can navigate study away from home. Just my opinion.

    Replies: @Hannah Katz

    When my daughter applied to Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo (later graduated, BTW), it was all about test scores and grades. The extracurricular activities field on the application was a Yes/No item. Not surprisingly, she found the student body there to be whiter than most Cali schools, and more conservative. Nice bunch of kids. Good school. No monkey business. Rare in California and I am sure they are looking for ways to “transform” it.

    Sadly, they will have to dumb down the UC schools or the Dreamers, misfits and rejects that they will be trying to push in, based on demographic data, will flunk out in massive numbers. “The prof tol’ us to do all dis stuff, but I dindu nuffin.”

  217. @VinnyVette
    We're back to "nurture vs nature" here...
    Asians performing better is not just IQ, They work harder and more diligently than whites, black, Hispanics, men from Mars pick a race... Jews of course are their own catagory and have the IQ but fall victim to the pit falls of American culture more so than Asians, partying, laziness other distractions. Asians as a culture are obsessed with school performance from K through college and later on into job performance. Look at the Tiger mom phenomena. This is another example of where "experts" fuck up everything! Blaming Meth or opioids for other races under achieving? The other reason is that college is a big business and no longer exists for the purpose of education but to indoctrinate as we all know. They want as many bodies on campus from genius to dolt, doesn't matter, and the money is guaranteed regardless of whether or not the morons they want to admit pass or fail, they care not! Also the left believes if you throw any minority in to college, they will become successful like whites and Asians and the iSteve crowd knows all too well how that works out! They don't want to use SAT's because not enough zombies can score well on them!

    Replies: @Znzn

    How well do corporate promotion performance correlate with SAT scores anong East Asians? East Asian overperformance in High School vs. relative mediocrity in college and the corporate world seems to the career equivalent of a premature ejaculation. And as for Jewish dysfunction, maybe that is due to higher neuroticism?

    • Replies: @VinnyVette
    @Znzn

    I was't saying they are "all world" in terms of high ranking positions of power in the financial world. They mostly perform well in STEM / Tech / medical fields. They do not as a group perform poorly relative to other races in college! Steve has posted enough articles / stats to verify that. They usually end up middle class or upper middle class. They are not very creative, they can play Paganini note for note but they can't write anything good themselves. They as well as the Japanese are great copiers! They simply out work other races in today's environment. Your analogy of F1 racing being dominated by whites is a good example of their weaknesses! Jews as neurotics spot on! Woody Allen is the poster boy!

    Replies: @128

  218. @hibernian

    My husband recalls that in the early 90s ugrad tuition+fees at Cal was $1150 a semester. I cant prove it, but
    https://www.dailycal.org/2014/12/22/history-uc-tuition-since-1868/

    shows mid 80s was half that and mid 90s twice that, so his memory is certainly in the ballpark.

    Even by then, the rent thing was becoming a problem. I rented a shoebox hovel apt in S Berkeley for $360 a month in 1991; by 1995, it was more like $600, and by the dot-com blow up in 2000, grad students were living homeless in their cars for months because there was no housing. You were lucky to find a room for rent for under 1k.
    Kids can’t put themselves they college on that without all getting that data science job at FB, which is why 1200 kids are enrolled in the first course in their newly minted data science sequence. It is obscene.

    For a real middle class family (not a 400k a year dual income bay area family) MIT is cheaper than Cal because they cover the gap between what you can pay and their tuition, without you taking out loans. Several other privates have been doing this as well, though they all figure it differently. Cal forces you to take loans.

    Savvy students do go to other states’ honors colleges for full rides, and these places use your SAT scores for the scholarships even when the college itself does away with their use in admissions, but usually they are restricted in how many out of state takers can win. i had a friend whose son went to Montana that way, and another to a state school in VA that way.

    But a lot is going to change at colleges. Would you pay 40k a year to go to Cal when you can’t even be on campus? Well, at least it drops to 16k a year without room and board. Okay..still–worth it to live at home and never set foot in campus?

  219. @PiltdownMan
    @Anon7

    Somewhat OT:

    Here's an article from yesterday's Washington Post about a woman mathematician which, very unusually for these times, doesn't go on and on about the fact that she is a woman, and instead, focuses on her accomplishment.


    Graduate student untangles nature of Conway knot

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/graduate-student-untangles-nature-of-conway-knot/2020/05/22/9a38bebe-9ace-11ea-ac72-3841fcc9b35f_story.html

     

    PS: It also provides a to another, slightly more detailed (and similarly dispassionate) article in Quanta.

    https://www.quantamagazine.org/graduate-student-solves-decades-old-conway-knot-problem-20200519

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    She got the idea from another female professor, at Steve’s alma mater.

    The article names John Conway as a Covid-19 victim. Did he comment on it? Conway got a nice tribute on the Numberphile channel.

    If you like smart math girls who don’t make a fuss about being girls, that’s the place to go. I like their self-described “Champaign Mathematician” Holly Krieger. PBS’s Kelsey Houston-Edwards is even more chipper. Eugenia Cheng unites maths– she’s a Sussex girl, schooled at Roedean– with cooking.

    Now that’s the kind of feminization I can go for!

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @Reg Cæsar


    Did he comment on it?
     
    In the comments to that Quanta article, Conway’s widow, Diana Conway, mentions that he did not learn of the solution before he died. I daresay he would have, had he fallen ill only a couple of weeks or so later.

    That’s sad-fate is cruel.
  220. Anon[187] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian
    @martin_2

    All true, but- insufficient. It doesn't explain bursts of creativity, or, better, creative chaos needed for revolutionary breakthroughs. Here Darwinian approach seems to be inadequate. Not wrong, just lacking.

    1. there is no g, not some quantifiable IQ. There are different, 5-15, say, types of cognitive abilities & that’s all. Forget about factor analysis & similar phlogistons- there is not a cat-mouse which is a combo of a cat & a mouse.

    2. life around us, history, world … show us that cognitive abilities differ in individuals, sexes, races, perhaps other collectives.

    3. intelligence is just one trait, now more important than before, but other traits, both measurable & non-measurable are perhaps even more important. For instance, creativity, imagination, something…

    E.M. Forster wrote his best & last novel “A Passage to India” in 1924; he died when he was 91, 1970. Why for almost half a century he had been writing only minor & trivial things? Laziness? Or muse had, alas, definitely departed.

    Most theoretical physicists are finished by their 35, max 40 (including the greatest, Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, or among truly moderns Dirac & Heisenberg). Why? We don’t know.

    With regard to intellectual creativity on highest levels we can glean from history that philosophers & mathematicians age well, while physicists are like women, especially Nordic white & Japanese- they, alas, don’t age well.

    4. A brief excursus: historically, some collectives are astonishingly not only “over-represented”, but truly incomprehensible in their creativity (“intelligence”) & influence: ancient Greeks from 700-200 BC, Italians from 1300-1600, English from 1500-1750, Germans from 1750-1850 (a rough sketch, of course). Greeks are doubtlessly the greatest genius of a people in history. How, why, …? We don’t know.

    The English had created immensely from, say, 1500 to 1900 (and swallowed a quarter of the globe in the process). How, why, …? There was a significant pre-Norman English culture, but Normans (French Vikings) had destroyed most of it & English nation had begun to form, anew, somewhere around 1350-1400. So, English made in 500 years more than Chinese in 4000 years, globally.

    Why?

    We don't know.

    Anytime, every time, someone is prominent above average, and especially on much larger scale (see Greeks, Italians, Germans, English..). Such is life. Rise & fall. Ups & downs.

    Replies: @Anon

    A lot of intellectual innovation is based on the opportunity to work at it. If you were brilliant as a student and did much innovative work as a young man, much of your time and energy in later life gets eaten up by being a professor. You need to write up lectures, give them, grade papers, see students between classes who want to discuss papers, problems, and be mentored. That’s a full-time job. There are profs who barely do any research once they get into teaching. In the sciences, your time can get eaten up by the need to run your lab. Ordering supplies, organizing the lab room for experiments, managing your lab assistants, as well teaching the labs and grading experiments.

    The most creative minds should not be burdened with teaching at all. It takes up so much of their time that they have no time to incubate ideas of their own. What’s more important? Coming up with a brilliant breakthrough, or mentoring 90 minds every semester who are either going to drop out of the field or produce work that’s mediocre in comparison to your own?

    We need to arrange a way for the most brilliant minds to continue to work full-time without the burden of teaching. Teaching done by the most brilliant is a waste of resources. It’s the second and third tier minds who should be teaching. Furthermore, they are often the best explainers.

  221. @LostInTgeWoods
    Higher education is running out of white kids

    What do you mean by this? There are probably still more whites than either Asians or Latinos taken as individual groups.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Gyre07, @Justsaying

    Apparently you didn’t read the article. The stats for UCSD show the student body is 37% Asian and 19% white.

  222. @Steve Sailer
    @Ian Smith

    Coleman revamped the SAT a few years ago, which caused both white and Asian scores to plunge, but Asians immediately regroups and continued onward and upward to new highs.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @JerseyJeffersonian, @Alice in Wonderland, @James N. Kennett, @Happy tapir

    here’s my take on the sudden, severe dip in Asian scores on the new test. You can tell me where I go wrong.

    The lowest point of the dip is the real Asian average score because real test prep wasn’t available for that test.

    What do I mean my by real test prep? That is test prep based on the actual questions on the real test. Test prep companies have people go take the real test and come back with the real test items. There are released tests but those items are not on the tests students take later. Also, test items must appear on later versions because some items are not scored because they appear so they can be tested for reliability and validity and then used on later versions. Tutors who have seen the real test have those items and use them to prepare students. It is much easier to get items right when you have already seen them and have seen the correct answers.

    Okay, where am I wrong?

  223. @Lagertha
    @Reg Cæsar

    Linus Torvalds was not Chinese, btw.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @anon

    Linus Torvalds was not Chinese, btw.

    He’s not in charge of LINUX anymore, either, thanks to the SJW’s.
    I doubt the Han Chinese allow anything retarded special snowflake “Trust & Safety Committee” to be in charge of their software, either. That’s strictly for 白左

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @anon

    sigh

  224. @Felix M
    Why not consider a different question?

    Namely, how can white kids be taught to work hard. Or perhaps, how can white parents be taught to raise their kids to work hard.

    And similarly, of course, for black Americans. And across the board.

    BTW, one of my favourite quotes is, “Other people read books; Jews study them”. (Quoting from memory. Too lazy to look it up.)

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Sin City Milla

    Do you have kids? Teaching kids to work hard won’t happen, unless you as the parent are a hard worker. It has to be in the genes, and they have to see it modeled. You can’t sit on the couch and yell, “Go do your homework! And then practice the piano! And then study some extra Latin!” But if you sit patiently with them and explain the math problems and try reading their literature so you can discuss it with them and let them hear you practicing the piano, you might see them work a little harder.

    It sounds like I’m talking about homeschooling, but even homeschool parents struggle to get some of their kids to finish a daily, simple assignment. Hard work isn’t just a class you can take at school or a video you can watch on youtube. It might be close to the ability to carry a tune: you’re either born with it, or with much struggle and in the right environment you can get near to the mark.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @stillCARealist


    work isn’t just a class you can take at school or a video you can watch on youtube.

     

    You've definitely got a point. But "hard work," I believe, is kind of a slippery concept. For example, some people genuinely enjoy learning certain subjects. Should they get credit for "working hard" when, for them, it's fun instead of work?

    Part of the skill set is tricking yourself into finding your "work" interesting. These people probably do better in the long run than those who just have a high tolerance for tedium.
  225. @XYZ (no Mr.)
    @Jack D

    Isn't this the rationalisation of all those black Americans you dislike so much? Many of them feel our system is corrupt...in a different way. So your philosophy certainly gives them moral sanction to lie.

    Replies: @Pericles, @bomag, @Anonymous

    Isn’t this the rationalisation of all those black Americans… ?

    Perhaps so, but is it an honest assessment? Blacks have done comparatively well in the US, and in some part from the system putting a thumb on the scale in their favor.

  226. Anonymous[110] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alice
    @Anon

    There aren't any white middle class kids who can afford to go to the UC anymore anyway, and they certainly can't afford SAT prep. the white kids going were kids of Woke Karens.

    Cost to go to Cal for 1 year: $40k in-state
    https://admissions.berkeley.edu/cost

    Estimated Student Budget 2019-2020
    CA RESIDENT NONRESIDENT*
    Tuition and Fees $14,254 $14,254
    Nonresident supplemental tuition - $29,754
    Student Health Insurance Plan** $3,286 $3,286
    *Room and board $17,220 $17,220
    Food $1,644 $1,644
    Books and supplies $870 $870
    Personal $1,876 $1,876
    Transportation $400 $400
    TOTAL $39,550 $69,304
    *Calculated based on students living in the residence halls.


    That's right, it's 2k a month to live in Unit 2. living in Berkeley is not cheaper.

    UC San Diego: $25k a year if you live at home

    Cost of Attendance Living with Parents On Campus Off Campus
    CA Resident Tuition/Feesa, d, e (View Components) $14,451 $14,451 $14,451
    Housing and Meals $6,579 $14,295 $13,614
    Books and Supplies $1,128 $1,128 $1,128
    Transportation $1,506 $534 $1,104
    Personal Expenses $1,647 $1,479 $1,590
    Estimated CA Resident Cost Totalsb $25,311 $31,887 $31,887

    Replies: @Anon, @Hibernian, @RAZ, @Pericles, @Anonymous

    Student Health Insurance Plan** $3,286

    That is a pretty staggering amount considering that it is for some of the healthiest people. They are virtually all young and there are almost no very sick people among them because you have to be healthy enough to attend the classes.

    College students are healthier than their peers who are not attending. So, they are even healthier than their already very healthy age group.

    I think this price is somehow subsidizing other UC folks like staff or faculty.

  227. @Slimer
    @Kratoklastes


    There must be soooo many disappointed Tiger Mums… I bet they secretly wish their kids were half-black, to get Yale and Harvard Wokemon points.
     
    Hmmm, next time I hear "no rike a brack" I'll mention these Wokemon points.

    Doubt it'll work though. People want to attend Harvard and Yale because they're the pinnacle of white prestige, and having too many black or even half-black faces on campus would taint their reputation. This would be true even if blacks were stellar students.There's an article somewhere about foolish Africans being lured into Chinese universities with promises of academic scholarships, only to see them given instead to lower performing white students. So Asians by and large are probably unbothered by universities scrapping the SAT requirement, as they want the best schools to remain somewhat white.

    Replies: @anon

    People want to attend Harvard and Yale because they’re the pinnacle of white globalhomo prestige,

    Fixed.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    @anon

    The Trump administration is just as dominated by Ivy Leaguers as the previous four.

    Replies: @anon, @res

  228. @education realist
    @Gimeiyo

    I work at an SAT academy, and I'm not confused at all. SAT prep in Asian schools is at *minimum* five hours a day, four days a week, with the 5th day being a test. For 8 weeks. that's on top of classes they take in the math class they'll be taking the next year, where they go through the whole book in advance, often taking the tests that the math teacher they'll have next year uses.

    Replies: @vhrm, @stillCARealist, @Alden

    Do tell. What is an Asian school? What is an SAT academy? Is all this test prep happening during the summer? This extra math class they’re taking, are we talking about HS Juniors preparing for their senior year, or for their first year of college?

    My kids did a PSAT prep class and it was 8 weeks long, but they only met once a week and the rest of the time the kids were supposed to be practicing and studying on their own. This class was sufficient to get them through the SAT as well, with extra practice tests available. Even this level of prep was a battle to get them to buckle down and get through it.

    • Replies: @education realist
    @stillCARealist

    It happens throught the summer and then all year round. The extra math class is every summer. They take algebra the summer before they take it in a public school, using the same book that the district uses. Other schools (not mine) collect the tests given by various teachers in the district. Then geometry. Then algebra 2. So when they take the course they've already seen the book and content at least, in less ethical ones they've seen tests and quizzes as well. They start PSAT prep as 7th graders on Saturdays, then do an intense PSAT their sophomore summer, then SAT prep their junior year, usually taking their test in September/October. They take 8 practice tests the summer before, as well as three or four in the weeks leading up to the SAT.

    "My kids did a PSAT prep class and it was 8 weeks long, but they only met once a week and the rest of the time the kids were supposed to be practicing and studying on their own."

    that's American prep, a la Kaplan and Princeton.

  229. Anonymous[401] • Disclaimer says:

    The verbal section of the SAT, which I believe is no longer called “verbal”, has gotten easier over the past 30 years. In 1995, they fiddled with the scoring, effectively making it easier to score higher. And in 2005, they got rid of the analogy section, which was regarded as the most difficult part of the verbal test. I would imagine this has benefited the Asian scores.

  230. Anonymous[205] • Disclaimer says:
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium
    I agree with the hypothesis that Asians mature faster in terms of intelligence and have a higher comparative IQ at the high school level, but it evens out and then they fall behind whites later on in life. They are also far less creative on average, which may not matter as much for an SAT test, but matters a whole lot throughout your career.

    Anyway, the SAT will likely not go away but what will happen is that colleges will start to take more into account things like "personality", "extracurriculars", "leadership potential", etc. as a way of preventing a campus full of Changs and Lings who do nothing but study and then don't donate anything.

    What may also happen is that Asians effectively take over the current top schools, but later on the schools that are majority-white become the de facto unspoken top schools that most companies would prefer to hire from as the long-term results of majority-white vs majority-Asian staff become evident. This is part of the ultimate fate of any mixing of ethnicities in one territory: balkanization by race. Whites will have their own neighbourhoods, high schools, colleges, and companies. So will Asians, Indians. Jews will move in between and attempt to control all. Blacks and Latinos (except white Latinos who will merge into White) will be forever proles.

    Replies: @education realist, @Senzo, @Anonymous, @Biff, @Derek Jeter, @in the middle, @Chinaman, @Jeremygg5

    Anyway, the SAT will likely not go away but what will happen is that colleges will start to take more into account things like “personality”, “extracurriculars”, “leadership potential”, etc. as a way of preventing a campus full of Changs and Lings who do nothing but study and then don’t donate anything.

    Chinese donate a lot to US universities. That’s why universities have been recruiting Chinese students. Not just because they often pay full tuition, but because they donate a lot:

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    But Harvard getting under $100 million out of China while they were running a fund-raising drive to bring in $6.5 billion and wound up raising an absurd $9.6 billion isn't all that big of a deal.

  231. @Anonymous
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium


    Anyway, the SAT will likely not go away but what will happen is that colleges will start to take more into account things like “personality”, “extracurriculars”, “leadership potential”, etc. as a way of preventing a campus full of Changs and Lings who do nothing but study and then don’t donate anything.
     
    Chinese donate a lot to US universities. That's why universities have been recruiting Chinese students. Not just because they often pay full tuition, but because they donate a lot:

    https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iWNZgFNNy.8A/v0/-1x-1.png

    https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iDCpUYG23JnY/v0/-1x-1.png

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    But Harvard getting under $100 million out of China while they were running a fund-raising drive to bring in $6.5 billion and wound up raising an absurd $9.6 billion isn’t all that big of a deal.

  232. All I know is that smart admissions directors at elite schools don’t want too many Asian grinds who never become Elon Musk

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Meretricious

    Another common trope. East Asians can’t create or lead companies. Look at the number of Global Fortune 500 that are East Asian.

    https://fortune.com/global500/

    They can create, lead and grow companies perfectly well. Have you considered that the reason East Asians don’t lead Western companies is that they are confounded by the “me me me I’m awesome” culture?

  233. It could be the cream of asia was skimmed off and came here screwing our own moderately intelligent white people. Along with the propensity of their parents to make them walk over hot coals to attain a goal. I taught some fairly bright asians, years ago, they could read a book and regurgitate chapter and verse – but almost anything else was a mystery. Maybe they’ve improved on that model.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Malcolm Y

    From what I have seen in Asia, having been assigned there, the Asian cream of the crop do not go to the West at all.

    If you could divide a population into slices of 25% (so-called "quartiles"), the the top quartile of East Asia are so privileged and comfortable at home that they don't bother emigrating. They are already the smartest and best performers at home, with the best jobs, opportunities and lifestyles, and - very importantly - surrounded by their own kind to boot (that is very important!)

    What you need to watch out for is that 2nd highest quartile, below the cream of the crop but themselves smarter and better than the rest of their population.

    This group has way, way less leeway and favor in Asia. All the top corporate spots are taken, all the successful businesses are owned by the top 25%, they are priced out of the best neighborhoods, their kids aren't quite as smart as those above them, etc., such that the 2nd 25% find it hard to enjoy the best lifestyles.

    But they remain a very ambitious, competitive and hard-working group, and are in the upper half of Asian performance, just not quite the best.

    This is the population quartile that emigrates to White nations, and are not to be underestimated.

    Replies: @128

  234. Anonymous[412] • Disclaimer says:
    @XYZ (no Mr.)
    @Jack D

    Isn't this the rationalisation of all those black Americans you dislike so much? Many of them feel our system is corrupt...in a different way. So your philosophy certainly gives them moral sanction to lie.

    Replies: @Pericles, @bomag, @Anonymous

    Isn’t this the rationalisation of all those black Americans you dislike so much? Many of them feel our system is corrupt…in a different way. So your philosophy certainly gives them moral sanction to lie.

    If my son can beat me in the 100m dash, it isn’t because of cheating. If I beat him, it is.

  235. @128
    @Anonymous

    How many East Asian engineers are working for BMW, Audi, Porsche, or Ferrari? F1 is the pinnacle of motor sports and I do not recall seeing many East Asians among the technical personnel.

    Replies: @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    mazda lemans, honda formula one, subaru rally, toyota rally , mitsubishi rally , In my opinion rally racing is the best motor sports. Japan makes the best cornering cars been like this since the nineties , the nissan gtr is an incredible car even though its heavy, it corners ferociously with all kinds of technology to help it corner that well

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    @eastkekiisawhiteguy


    Japan makes the best cornering cars been like this since the nineties , the nissan gtr is an incredible car even though its heavy, it corners ferociously with all kinds of technology to help it corner that well
     
    Agreed. They do ok with motorcycles, too. An awful lot of folks would argue for the Italians and Lambo for cornering and go-fast and probably more would argue for Mercedes AMG. These days are a golden age if you're into speed. There is a LOT of Go-Fast in the car and motorcycle business of today. Too bad the skill to ride these beasts doesn't come along with the money to buy them.
  236. @anonymous
    @Bardon Kaldian


    Perhaps in some future we will be able to ascertain, experimentally, through neuro-imagining, neurophysiology, brain investigation …. some new aspects & dimensions of human cognition and behavior (emotion, impulse control, ethical development,..) and intuition and imagination and …
     
    Can you recommend any literature on these dimensions of intelligence beyond simple IQ?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Not literature, but a few readable articles on various topics:

    https://www.livescience.com/54370-math-brain-network-discovered.html

    Mathematical Ability Revealed in Brain Scans

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-does-a-mathematician-s-brain-differ-from-that-of-a-mere-mortal/

    How Does a Mathematician’s Brain Differ from That of a Mere Mortal?

    https://www.seeker.com/mathematical-ability-revealed-in-brain-scans-1771191893.html

    Mathematical Ability Revealed in Brain Scans

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_music

    Neuroscience of music

    https://mappingignorance.org/2018/05/02/music-maths-language-and-the-brain/

    Music, maths, language… and the brain

  237. Anon[134] • Disclaimer says:
    @Meretricious
    All I know is that smart admissions directors at elite schools don't want too many Asian grinds who never become Elon Musk

    Replies: @Anon

    Another common trope. East Asians can’t create or lead companies. Look at the number of Global Fortune 500 that are East Asian.

    https://fortune.com/global500/

    They can create, lead and grow companies perfectly well. Have you considered that the reason East Asians don’t lead Western companies is that they are confounded by the “me me me I’m awesome” culture?

    • Agree: Mary Marianne
  238. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Well I'd agree with you about Harold Bloom -- more than anything else he was a remarkable resource, a guy who read pretty much really everything in his entire field, and managed to keep it all at his fingertips. A rather superhuman feat. I think his Shakespeare criticism is often original and insightful. I grow impatient when he gets oracular, and I'm skeptical of his grander theories, but you have to allow a mind like that its indulgences.

    As for the rest, it seems like I was getting into something that's rather perpendicular to your original point, so I'll leave it be unless you want to dig into it some more...

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Well….I don’t want to dig into anything. However, I’ve noticed that one of my best comments hadn’t been posted.

    Strange ….

  239. @Reg Cæsar
    @PiltdownMan

    She got the idea from another female professor, at Steve's alma mater.

    The article names John Conway as a Covid-19 victim. Did he comment on it? Conway got a nice tribute on the Numberphile channel.

    If you like smart math girls who don't make a fuss about being girls, that's the place to go. I like their self-described "Champaign Mathematician" Holly Krieger. PBS's Kelsey Houston-Edwards is even more chipper. Eugenia Cheng unites maths-- she's a Sussex girl, schooled at Roedean-- with cooking.

    Now that's the kind of feminization I can go for!

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

    Did he comment on it?

    In the comments to that Quanta article, Conway’s widow, Diana Conway, mentions that he did not learn of the solution before he died. I daresay he would have, had he fallen ill only a couple of weeks or so later.

    That’s sad-fate is cruel.

  240. @AaronB
    @somebody_somewhere


    In other words, it’s actually quite impressive how consistently well white students score as a large group against the much smaller and more affluent progeny of high-achieving Asian Americans. For seemingly trying so much harder, Asian students aren’t actually doing all that much better. If you were to take out the subset of very affluent white students, I think their scores would probably blow everyone else out of the water
     
    That's a good point that occurred to me as well.

    In general, you can get like 80% of the results with reasonable effort. To leap past that you have to put in super human efforts. In other words it doesn't progress proportionately - you may be putting in 10 times the effort that got you to 80%, and only get an additional 10% better.

    The real question as a society we have to ask ourselves - is it worth it? What's a good life/work balance?

    Do we want to be like Asians - if we know for sure that working as hard as Asians will get us the same results, should we do it? Or do we have other values in life?

    Asians are at a particular point in their history - they need to prove themselves, so for the time being, they're willing to work like crazy just to be a bit more competitive.

    Are we at the same point in our history? Or are we at a point where we can start thinking about life/work balance, after centuries of incredible achievements.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Do we want to be like Asians – if we know for sure that working as hard as Asians will get us the same results, should we do it?

    • LOL: AaronB
  241. @Anon
    The same thing has happened in programming interviews in Silicon Valley. Over the past decade, technical interviews have been thoroughly gamed by Chinese H1B's, to the point where you have subscription services, like LeetCode.com, that coach experienced developers for 1-2 months, just so they can be ready to interview. Not entry-level developers. Experienced developers, who have 5+ years under their belt.

    Everyone knows the system is broken, but people are too politically correct to acknowledge the problem with Chinese H1B's. Spergy younger American developers -- who have never known another system -- will often brag about their achievements on LeetCode, which is basically the equivalent of taking pride in a SAT-prep course.

    The technical interviews themselves started because you had Indian H1B's that would blatantly lie about everything on their resume, along with having someone sit in on an initial technical phone screen for them.

    Using H1B's, it strips out any sense of good faith or honesty in the interview process.

    Replies: @Lowe, @Neoconned

    Isn’t rent in the Bay Area like ~3-4k$$ per month?

    I’ve always wondered how the h1bs afford that sh-t…..do they stack them in bunk beds 10 to a small room like in boot camp or something? That would drop rent to like 300 to 400 a month I suppose….

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Neoconned

    It's not that bad if you do not insist on living by yourself in downtown San Francisco or Palo Alto. When I was looking at apartments (always with a roommate) in the East Bay, it was usually in the 1k range: not cheap, but easily compatible with a solid standard of living on your typical 120K base salary. And while BART sucks, it at least exists, so commuting isn't a problem. I have heard from acquaintances who work at Google that accommodation in Mountain View is significantly tougher, but they have the salaries to handle that.

    As far as the H1-Bs go, they typically pool their money together, rent out whole clusters of apartments and room tight. Once they have enough money to bring over a wife, they'll move out. Other cities offer better options: in Redmond, Microsoft has loads of proximate close-campus housing units, which are usually a good fit for American 20-somethings as well. The campus as a whole offers basically everything you need: even cricket fields, where nightly matches are common when the whether is good.

    Replies: @Alice

    , @dvorak
    @Neoconned


    Isn’t rent in the Bay Area like ~3-4k$$ per month?
     
    There are plenty of unfashionable spots in/near Silicon Valley where an apartment is less than 3-4k per month.
  242. In my experience, teaching at various colleges over the years, East-Asian students – Korean, Chinese, whatever – were always friendly & subservient, and fairly good at math, but hopeless at English.

    I could never figure out how they got in.

  243. @Carol
    Grades are useless too, right? I saw that at /Teachers. How colleges are supposed to evaluate applicants is beyond me. Better ace that interview!

    Is the MCAT next?

    Replies: @Rob, @Charon, @Chunkachunk, @cthulhu

    How colleges are supposed to evaluate applicants is beyond me. Better ace that interview!

    My high school senior year, I killed the ACT and did well but not commensurately spectacular on the SAT (small, very rural school in a small, rural state; nearest SAT testing location was 1.5 hrs away; in the last five years, only three seniors at my high school had bothered to take the SAT; I took it because I was a National Merit semi-finalist). I had straight-A’s and was class salutatorian, but again, small, very rural, not academically well known high school.

    However, due to a combination of grades and test scores, I ended up in the finalist pool of about two dozen for the state university’s top scholarship program; ten awarded each year (freshman class averaged about 8000 per year, total undergraduate enrollment about 25k). They interviewed me, I didn’t get it but I did easily get the second tier, still a four-year scholarship but substantially less $. One of the freshman year obligations for these two scholarships was to attend a high school recruiting event. On the hour-long bus ride, I ended up sitting next to one of my scholarship interviewers, a long-time administrator at the university; he remembered me and chatted very openly with me. He told me that this had been the first year they added the interview component to the top-tier scholarship, and had selected about half the recipients more on the interview results than test scores, GPA, and class standing; he said he had argued for me but I wasn’t at the top of the interview results. It turned out (he said) that every one of the scholarship recipients whose interview tipped the balance were in academic trouble and in danger of being stripped of their scholarship (at the end of the freshman year, out of the ten, three ended up losing the scholarship). This was much worse than any of the previous years, and they de-emphasized the interview the next few years at least.

    Me? I graduated summa cum laude with an engineering degree and have been very successful ever since. I averaged 17-18 hrs per semester and never had a semester GPA less than 3.75. Interviews are overrated…

  244. @Steve Sailer
    @Ian Smith

    Coleman revamped the SAT a few years ago, which caused both white and Asian scores to plunge, but Asians immediately regroups and continued onward and upward to new highs.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @JerseyJeffersonian, @Alice in Wonderland, @James N. Kennett, @Happy tapir

    Coleman revamped the SAT a few years ago, which caused both white and Asian scores to plunge, but Asians immediately regroups and continued onward and upward to new highs.

    That revamp also seems to have reduced the male/female achievement gap.

  245. @education realist
    @Steve Sailer

    As I mentioned on Twitter, the GRE was basically the SAT verbal pre-1995. On the SAT, anything over 700 was 99th percentile.

    The math might not have been hard from a knowledge standpoint, but it was pretty g-loaded. The GRE Quant was like that as well. When I coached the GRE, I would routinely run into engineers and other technical people who had taken calculus and more, yet had a tough time on the test--not low scores, but 650, 700.

    There are far more high IQ math than hi IQ verbal, I think which is why verbal scores are rarer.

    Replies: @prime noticer

    “There are far more high IQ math than hi IQ verbal, I think which is why verbal scores are rarer.”

    i’ve thought about this for 30 years, and i think i can explain what’s happening here.

    it’s the difficulty of the test, not the distribution of ability. the math test is less difficult.

    might post a longer explanation at some point. if i feel like it. nobody is paying me.

    • Agree: James Speaks
  246. @jon
    @allensheep

    Here is the scoring system for the Diversity Statement:

    http://ofew.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/rubric_to_assess_candidate_contributions_to_diversity_equity_and_inclusion.pdf

    Replies: @vhrm, @James N. Kennett

    Here is the scoring system for the Diversity Statement:

    http://ofew.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/rubric_to_assess_candidate_contributions_to_diversity_equity_and_inclusion.pdf

    That is a truly revolting document. Produced by Berkeley’s “Office for Faculty Equity & Welfare”, whose name alone implies ironic Orwellian definitions of both “equity” and “welfare”.

    When it mentions “mentoring of underrepresented students”, I guess this does not include white students, although nowadays whites are probably as under-represented at Berkeley as they are at UCSD.

    Apart from anything else, it is a mechanism for screening out candidates who are not up to date on the latest SJW ideas. It is a political test.

    What an absolute disgrace.

  247. @International Jew
    @James Speaks

    I took the GRE in 1980 and it had something called "logical reasoning" which was quite hard and genuinely interesting. I spent some fun evenings in the dorms going over practice problems with a few friends.
    Also, the top score on each test was 900, when 800 was already pretty far out on the tail.

    Having a really deep high end is actually not that necessary on the GRE because anyone smart enough to score really really high will have already come to the attention of a professor who's well enough connected to place him into a top graduate institution.

    Replies: @Faraday's Bobcat

    Having a really deep high end is actually not that necessary on the GRE because anyone smart enough to score really really high will have already come to the attention of a professor who’s well enough connected to place him into a top graduate institution.

    2250 GRE in a year long ago when the average was 1581, and I didn’t come to anyone’s attention. I went to a big state school where the professors were busy teaching 200-student sections and groveling for NSF grants, not cultivating young scholars.

    • Agree: Alice
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    Right, maybe if you go to Williams or Amherst, you will come to the attention of your well-connected professor, but at the U. of Illinois?

    Replies: @black sea

    , @education realist
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    The GRE never totalled the scores like that, because the percentiles are too different. So 2250 is a meaningless score.

    But you're correct, no one cares about high GRE scores.

    Replies: @GazaPlanet, @Faraday's Bobcat

    , @Alice
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    25+ years ago, I scored a perfect 800 on each of three GRE exams, walking in cold. They were easier than the SAT had been 10 years before that. I was at MIT, and I didn't come to anyone's attention because my grades were poor and, frankly, I was too immature a student to do research; maybe a perfect 800 on the subject physics GRE would have helped.. What the GRE proved 20 years ago might have helped the kid from Iowa State or UNT or some other state school of no real reputation, but what it proves now is probably nothing but your english proficiency assuming you didn't cheat. But the cheating is rampant.

    It's long past time when profs gave a damn about bringing up new students into their field. They don't care.

    Replies: @Hang All Text Drivers

  248. @Faraday's Bobcat
    @International Jew


    Having a really deep high end is actually not that necessary on the GRE because anyone smart enough to score really really high will have already come to the attention of a professor who’s well enough connected to place him into a top graduate institution.
     
    2250 GRE in a year long ago when the average was 1581, and I didn't come to anyone's attention. I went to a big state school where the professors were busy teaching 200-student sections and groveling for NSF grants, not cultivating young scholars.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @education realist, @Alice

    Right, maybe if you go to Williams or Amherst, you will come to the attention of your well-connected professor, but at the U. of Illinois?

    • Replies: @black sea
    @Steve Sailer

    I know a retired engineering professor who used to pitch his exams at a very high level, then curve the grades substantially. His son, a friend of mine, asked him why he gave such hard exams, and he answered that every once in a while you came across a student who got an uncurved 90 or 95, and you immediately identified him as someone with PhD potential.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

  249. @Paul
    Something that is hard to understand in the history of the sciences: Where are the Asian Isaac Newtons? There is the "Asians can't innovate" theory although Northeast Asians are good at learning the work of people of European descent.

    Replies: @Menschmaschine

    The simplest explanation is of course that some region had to be the first one – it was always implausible that several would reach the age of science and the industrial revolution at exactly the same time. This does not rule out that genetic factors like a stronger tendency for conformism played some role, but there is no reason to assume that Asians wouldn’t have gotten there eventually on their own.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Menschmaschine

    And this is a good argument for, dare i say it, diversity!

    In the sense that while one civilization goes off and has some Dark Age, Cultural Revolution, Woke-astrophy, or other unhelpful diversion others can take the ball and run with it. Then, when the revolutionaries flame out and the societies have productive capacity again they don't have to start from scratch since the flame has been maintained and nurtured elsewhere in some form or another.

    , @Paul
    @Menschmaschine

    "The simplest explanation is of course that some region had to be the first one – it was always implausible that several would reach the age of science and the industrial revolution at exactly the same time."

    Those were, of course, long ago.

    , @MarkinLA
    @Menschmaschine

    A lot of it is cultural. They simply have a societal belief system that frowns upon what we view as modern science or they already have systems in place that are non-scientific but have been with them for generations. Examples, would be making autopsies illegal for religious reasons so we tend to slow the rate of development of medical science. You also have traditional medical practices that we know today are unscientific but society won't let go of them like shamanism or Traditional Chinese Medicine.

    The problem with a cultural bias is that the society may never break out of it's handcuffs. The only thing that would force it is a stronger power making them take stock of their relative weakness like what happened to Japan. China always had periods of major scientific and technological advancement but always fell backwards at some point. They never got to where they continually systematically carried things forward like what happened with the European universities.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  250. @syonredux

    According to the College Board, which administers the SAT, 55 percent of Asian-American test takers and 45 percent of white test takers scored a 1200 or higher on the SAT in 2019. For Hispanic and black students, those numbers were 12 percent and 9 percent.
     
    And that's all you need to know.....

    Critics also say the tests are too easily gamed by students who can pay thousands of dollars for private coaching and test prep.
     
    Kinda seems to me that that would also be a factor in terms of using GPA as the metric....

    Carol Christ, the chancellor of the University of California, Berkeley, has long called for a move away from standardized testing for admissions. She cited the recent college admissions bribery scandal as a case in point, calling the episode “grotesque.”

     

    They also faked athletic achievements....Maybe we should stop using that as a factor in admissions, particularly where girls are concerned....

    Proponents of a change say it is fairer to judge students by other measures, such as teacher recommendations.

     

    That seems a tad subjective....of course, that's probably the point. Objective metrics tend to be racially biased...

    Replies: @MarkinLA, @Old Palo Altan

    Kinda seems to me that that would also be a factor in terms of using GPA as the metric….

    GPA is being gamed by so-called Advanced Placement courses. They give the students one grade point higher than the normal classes so we have kids with GPAs higher than 4.00. Many schools with a lot of Asians provide them but many other schools do not.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @MarkinLA

    University of California did a study and found that giving a full 1.0 higher grade for an AP class was inflated, that 0.5 would be right on the nose in terms of predicting college GPA. I think the Asian legislators protested, so no reform was done.

    , @Alice
    @MarkinLA

    the UC has their own weighting scheme for calculating GPA.

    the public district where I am gives 6 points for an AP A, and 4 for an AP C. (honors classes bumped up 1 point.) It ain't Asians getting the bump from that C.

    Replies: @MarkinLA

  251. @stillCARealist
    @Felix M

    Do you have kids? Teaching kids to work hard won't happen, unless you as the parent are a hard worker. It has to be in the genes, and they have to see it modeled. You can't sit on the couch and yell, "Go do your homework! And then practice the piano! And then study some extra Latin!" But if you sit patiently with them and explain the math problems and try reading their literature so you can discuss it with them and let them hear you practicing the piano, you might see them work a little harder.

    It sounds like I'm talking about homeschooling, but even homeschool parents struggle to get some of their kids to finish a daily, simple assignment. Hard work isn't just a class you can take at school or a video you can watch on youtube. It might be close to the ability to carry a tune: you're either born with it, or with much struggle and in the right environment you can get near to the mark.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    work isn’t just a class you can take at school or a video you can watch on youtube.

    You’ve definitely got a point. But “hard work,” I believe, is kind of a slippery concept. For example, some people genuinely enjoy learning certain subjects. Should they get credit for “working hard” when, for them, it’s fun instead of work?

    Part of the skill set is tricking yourself into finding your “work” interesting. These people probably do better in the long run than those who just have a high tolerance for tedium.

  252. @Twinkie
    @anon


    Unis in Iowa
     
    University of Iowa now has a huge foreign Chinese student contingent, which has created some tension in Iowa City:

    https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2015/07/us/culture-clash-american-story/

    The rise of Chinese students is most pronounced in the Midwest, with Big Ten universities heavily recruiting students within China over the last decade. Among the top 20 American universities with the highest Chinese student populations, nine are from the Big Ten, according to The Brookings Institution.

    The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign leads the way with 10,000 international students, including about 4,900 from China. Purdue is not far behind with 9,000 international students, including 4,600 Chinese. At both universities, international students make up nearly one-quarter of the entire student body.

    Michigan State has the highest population of Chinese students in the nation, with more than 5,300. Ohio State, Indiana, Minnesota and Michigan have seen an explosion in their Chinese student bodies: Each school has more than 3,000 Chinese students.

    At Iowa, the number of Chinese students outnumbers the combined African-American and Latino student population.

    The influx of Chinese students began about eight years ago, the result of America's great recession and China's burgeoning middle class. American universities were in crisis mode with their budgets getting slashed. Administrators needed a viable financial alternative.

    "Those are the two forces that are bringing about this huge growth of foreign students into the United States," says Neil G. Ruiz, a senior policy analyst and associate fellow for the Brookings Institution. "The impact is great. It helps the universities in the short run get the tuition and the students they need in terms of revenue."
     

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Anonymous

    These aren’t the mentally brightest or hardest working China has, anymore than H1B visa-wallahs bring skills that companies cannot (just cannot, we tell you!) manage to find native talent in the US. And universities, like Big Tech, have the political heft to have their self-serving version of reality made law.

    That’s why their affluent parents are sending them to the US. They know they don’t stand a chance on the gaokao against the most brilliant people the country has to offer. This is particularly true when they going up against the brilliant (and often slightly autistic-the gaokao suits that particular mental profile well) but poor kids who pop up in backwater China with surprising if relative frequency to lower IQ parents, and whose parents can’t even begin to afford American college tuition fees. Their only choice is to invest everything they’ve got into the domestic game. Middle class parents have alternatives if their kid visibly does not stand a chance: and if you have an alternative in life, for most people, you are already at an innate disadvantage against somebody with only one path forward.

    (As you probably already know, this can place intense pressure on the kid who has all the family’s hopes staked on him. Some of China’s most famous rebels were failed examination candidates who had breakdowns: Li Zicheng, Hong Xiuquan, etc.)

    If UMC Chinese parents early that their kids are not going to be the types who crush the admissions exam, whether in terms of native intellect, work ethic, or both have an easy out: the US. And the public universities loooove people who pay full-on, out of state tuition, even if they don’t speak English well or bring more serious negatives. For the rich, it can often start even younger. There are plenty of towns in California where Chinese millionaires buy houses to deposit their teenager in so they can graduate from an American high school. The effect that this has on local rental prices need not be elaborated.

  253. @MarkinLA
    @syonredux

    Kinda seems to me that that would also be a factor in terms of using GPA as the metric….

    GPA is being gamed by so-called Advanced Placement courses. They give the students one grade point higher than the normal classes so we have kids with GPAs higher than 4.00. Many schools with a lot of Asians provide them but many other schools do not.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alice

    University of California did a study and found that giving a full 1.0 higher grade for an AP class was inflated, that 0.5 would be right on the nose in terms of predicting college GPA. I think the Asian legislators protested, so no reform was done.

  254. @Neoconned
    @Anon

    Isn't rent in the Bay Area like ~3-4k$$ per month?

    I've always wondered how the h1bs afford that sh-t.....do they stack them in bunk beds 10 to a small room like in boot camp or something? That would drop rent to like 300 to 400 a month I suppose....

    Replies: @nebulafox, @dvorak

    It’s not that bad if you do not insist on living by yourself in downtown San Francisco or Palo Alto. When I was looking at apartments (always with a roommate) in the East Bay, it was usually in the 1k range: not cheap, but easily compatible with a solid standard of living on your typical 120K base salary. And while BART sucks, it at least exists, so commuting isn’t a problem. I have heard from acquaintances who work at Google that accommodation in Mountain View is significantly tougher, but they have the salaries to handle that.

    As far as the H1-Bs go, they typically pool their money together, rent out whole clusters of apartments and room tight. Once they have enough money to bring over a wife, they’ll move out. Other cities offer better options: in Redmond, Microsoft has loads of proximate close-campus housing units, which are usually a good fit for American 20-somethings as well. The campus as a whole offers basically everything you need: even cricket fields, where nightly matches are common when the whether is good.

    • Replies: @Alice
    @nebulafox

    Ah! you've reminded me of one of my favorite anecdotes, only slightly related to this thread. But it fits the general premise of the blog.

    On a family trip to the Triangle NC area, our family was having a picnic at a local state park near Morrisville, NC. My husband and son found a group of Indian lads playing cricket, and asked to join in. They, I guess out of shock, agreed. They played for 15 minutes or so, and after my husband scored, one boy, about 15 or maybe 20, told my husband "I didn't know any white people knew how to play cricket!"

    Husband told him it was invented by whites-- he scoffed, thought my husband was putting him on.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  255. @TheMassageIsTheMedium
    @Stephen Dodge

    Sir this is an Arby's

    Replies: @Stephen Dodge

    “communication is very difficult after the inflation point of two standard deviations”

  256. vhrm says:
    @Menschmaschine
    @Paul

    The simplest explanation is of course that some region had to be the first one - it was always implausible that several would reach the age of science and the industrial revolution at exactly the same time. This does not rule out that genetic factors like a stronger tendency for conformism played some role, but there is no reason to assume that Asians wouldn't have gotten there eventually on their own.

    Replies: @vhrm, @Paul, @MarkinLA

    And this is a good argument for, dare i say it, diversity!

    In the sense that while one civilization goes off and has some Dark Age, Cultural Revolution, Woke-astrophy, or other unhelpful diversion others can take the ball and run with it. Then, when the revolutionaries flame out and the societies have productive capacity again they don’t have to start from scratch since the flame has been maintained and nurtured elsewhere in some form or another.

  257. @nebulafox
    @Neoconned

    It's not that bad if you do not insist on living by yourself in downtown San Francisco or Palo Alto. When I was looking at apartments (always with a roommate) in the East Bay, it was usually in the 1k range: not cheap, but easily compatible with a solid standard of living on your typical 120K base salary. And while BART sucks, it at least exists, so commuting isn't a problem. I have heard from acquaintances who work at Google that accommodation in Mountain View is significantly tougher, but they have the salaries to handle that.

    As far as the H1-Bs go, they typically pool their money together, rent out whole clusters of apartments and room tight. Once they have enough money to bring over a wife, they'll move out. Other cities offer better options: in Redmond, Microsoft has loads of proximate close-campus housing units, which are usually a good fit for American 20-somethings as well. The campus as a whole offers basically everything you need: even cricket fields, where nightly matches are common when the whether is good.

    Replies: @Alice

    Ah! you’ve reminded me of one of my favorite anecdotes, only slightly related to this thread. But it fits the general premise of the blog.

    On a family trip to the Triangle NC area, our family was having a picnic at a local state park near Morrisville, NC. My husband and son found a group of Indian lads playing cricket, and asked to join in. They, I guess out of shock, agreed. They played for 15 minutes or so, and after my husband scored, one boy, about 15 or maybe 20, told my husband “I didn’t know any white people knew how to play cricket!”

    Husband told him it was invented by whites– he scoffed, thought my husband was putting him on.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Alice

    The fields in Redmond are huge: big enough to have tournaments on, and when it isn't pouring, the weather in Seattle can be, contrary to stereotype, very nice. Crisper and chillier than anybody from India is used to, obviously, but weirdly enough, the cooler weather makes one hungrier for physical activity, and if you've been pounding out code and chugging coffee all day you typically have a lot of pent up energy to release.

    I've had similar experiences in China when sitting down for street shaokao or Sichuan/Hunan food when they bluntly expressed surprise that I liked this stuff, but in their defense, it was their country and these were migrant construction workers who usually hadn't talked to a foreigner before. They were nonetheless a lot more enjoyable to interact with than noveau riche teenagers. (Singapore now has shaokao joints in places like Kallang-once a Malay dominated area-thanks to mass PRC immigration, but they are all indoors and it just isn't the same.)

  258. BRK says:

    My theory of the drop of the SAT is that this is aimed at boosting Non-Asian Minority prospects. NAMs can often get good grades because of grade inflation, but then bomb the SAT. There are lots of NAM valedictorians from terrible schools that have a 4.0 GPA but score 1200 on the SAT. I don’t think there’s anything more nefarious going on here than the UC system finally buckling under the pressure to enroll more NAMs like every other college in the nation, which is a damn shame.

    Its hard for me to see this as a volley by upper-middle class whites against asians. In my own experience, I’ve seen “white flight” from schools with a reputation for grindy asians, but I’ve never seen whites take a stand against Asian outperformance. It seems like all the fight went out of upper middle class white families after the civil rights movement. Since then upper middle class white families have been making one retreat after another rather than get into any sort of confrontation.

    I’ve attended institutions with 30%+ Asians. There wasn’t any friction between whites and asians. UCLA is still cool even though it’s now only 27% white. Thats because whites have their own parties and asians have their own parties with some friendly mixture.

    This is a big loss for asians, a loss for whites, and a big win for NAMs. Just more evidence that our country is sliding from merit to politics.

    • Agree: vhrm
  259. @MarkinLA
    @syonredux

    Kinda seems to me that that would also be a factor in terms of using GPA as the metric….

    GPA is being gamed by so-called Advanced Placement courses. They give the students one grade point higher than the normal classes so we have kids with GPAs higher than 4.00. Many schools with a lot of Asians provide them but many other schools do not.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Alice

    the UC has their own weighting scheme for calculating GPA.

    the public district where I am gives 6 points for an AP A, and 4 for an AP C. (honors classes bumped up 1 point.) It ain’t Asians getting the bump from that C.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @Alice

    No but Asian parents flock to schools where almost every discipline has an AP class. That is why we have all those valedictorians with 4.90 GPAs. The problem is that not every kid is in one of those schools nor are those classes really an indicator of how smart someone is. It just gives the grinders a leg up on other students just like cramming for the SAT or SAT prep courses give someone a leg up.

    When I went to college, you just showed up and took the SAT ONCE. Your only prep was taking the PSAT the year before to see if you could qualify for a national merit scholarship.

  260. @martin_2
    It is genetic...

    1. MRI scans of living human brains have lately revealed that Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans (Orientals for short) have larger brains than white people, with more neurones, even. There is an association between brain size and intelligence.

    2. Orientals score higher on IQ tests than white people, by around four or five IQ points. These tests were developed by white psychologists, so it is a bit of a stretch to claim that this is because the tests are culturally biased towards Orientals. If anything, any cultural bias on the tests would surely be in favour of whites.

    3. When Orientals come to live in the West, they adapt very well to Western culture and norms. They have very low rates of crime, they do well at school and acquire academic qualifications at all levels, they have low rates of substance abuse and illegitimacy. In short, they are at the top of all the positive social indices and at the bottom of all the negative social indices. They behave in exactly the way that one expects of a high IQ group of people, so the world is exactly as you would predict if the IQ data were true. There is thus no prima facie reason to dispute the IQ data.

    4. Darwin's theory of evolution, a theory that all intelligent people are supposed to accept as true at least in its broad generality, states that a species of animal, when separated into distinct colonies by some contingency such as the search for resources or natural disaster, those distinct colonies will, in the course of thousands of generations, begin to diverge from one another genetically, owing to the diverse environmental pressures they are severally subjected to. The brain is an organ like any other, and is subject to evolution just like any other. Therefore it would disprove evolution and probably prove the existence of God if by some miracle the Races of Man had all either retained the same cognitive traits as their common ancestor or else evolved in exactly the same way.

    5. I have been involved in education almost all my working life and in my extensive experience the children of poorly educated Chinese "take away people" from Fujian province in China have higher average IQ's than children of white educated upper middle class parents living in posh places like Islington. The adults can scarcely speak English so all this "their parents push them" bullshit is just bullshit.

    You can imagine how much I enjoyed telling smug educated white Labour Party Islington parents (and their children) all this whenever I got the chance. Sadly never these days. Young women used to hate to hear it the most. I can't understand why white advocates don't use the white Asian IQ gap more. After all, if anyone defends white people in all this then they are trying to say something positive about white people and are therefore a Racist.

    Replies: @Charon, @Sam Malone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Anonymous, @Menes, @Chinaman, @Anonymous

    Orientals score higher on IQ tests than white people, by around four or five IQ points.

    Wrong. The difference is closer to 10 points when average East Asian IQ is compared to average European IQ.

    Making it worse is the steady decline in European IQ, the reverse Flynn Effect.

    • Troll: GazaPlanet
  261. @Lin
    @Anon7


    And they send the cream of their crop here.
     
    Any stats on how creamy are the Chinese students went to US universities?

    In 2015,"..China’s prestigious Tsinghua University has bested the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to become the top school in the world for engineering research.."

    https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/10/08/chinese-university-tops-mit-in-engineering-rankings/

    Replies: @Anon7

    This doesn’t surprise me, many people predicted this in the 1990’s when so much of the world’s manufacturing went to China.

    At first, people laugh and say so what, China makes the best pig iron in the world. But the country doing all The manufacturing eventually needs the best engineers and the money for schools goes where the manufacturing is. The Chinese invested heavily and they own the best now.

    As far as I can tell, they’ve been less successful with having the best medical schools in spite of spending a fortune in collaborations with US schools.

  262. @Alice
    @nebulafox

    Ah! you've reminded me of one of my favorite anecdotes, only slightly related to this thread. But it fits the general premise of the blog.

    On a family trip to the Triangle NC area, our family was having a picnic at a local state park near Morrisville, NC. My husband and son found a group of Indian lads playing cricket, and asked to join in. They, I guess out of shock, agreed. They played for 15 minutes or so, and after my husband scored, one boy, about 15 or maybe 20, told my husband "I didn't know any white people knew how to play cricket!"

    Husband told him it was invented by whites-- he scoffed, thought my husband was putting him on.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    The fields in Redmond are huge: big enough to have tournaments on, and when it isn’t pouring, the weather in Seattle can be, contrary to stereotype, very nice. Crisper and chillier than anybody from India is used to, obviously, but weirdly enough, the cooler weather makes one hungrier for physical activity, and if you’ve been pounding out code and chugging coffee all day you typically have a lot of pent up energy to release.

    I’ve had similar experiences in China when sitting down for street shaokao or Sichuan/Hunan food when they bluntly expressed surprise that I liked this stuff, but in their defense, it was their country and these were migrant construction workers who usually hadn’t talked to a foreigner before. They were nonetheless a lot more enjoyable to interact with than noveau riche teenagers. (Singapore now has shaokao joints in places like Kallang-once a Malay dominated area-thanks to mass PRC immigration, but they are all indoors and it just isn’t the same.)

  263. @stillCARealist
    @education realist

    Do tell. What is an Asian school? What is an SAT academy? Is all this test prep happening during the summer? This extra math class they're taking, are we talking about HS Juniors preparing for their senior year, or for their first year of college?

    My kids did a PSAT prep class and it was 8 weeks long, but they only met once a week and the rest of the time the kids were supposed to be practicing and studying on their own. This class was sufficient to get them through the SAT as well, with extra practice tests available. Even this level of prep was a battle to get them to buckle down and get through it.

    Replies: @education realist

    It happens throught the summer and then all year round. The extra math class is every summer. They take algebra the summer before they take it in a public school, using the same book that the district uses. Other schools (not mine) collect the tests given by various teachers in the district. Then geometry. Then algebra 2. So when they take the course they’ve already seen the book and content at least, in less ethical ones they’ve seen tests and quizzes as well. They start PSAT prep as 7th graders on Saturdays, then do an intense PSAT their sophomore summer, then SAT prep their junior year, usually taking their test in September/October. They take 8 practice tests the summer before, as well as three or four in the weeks leading up to the SAT.

    “My kids did a PSAT prep class and it was 8 weeks long, but they only met once a week and the rest of the time the kids were supposed to be practicing and studying on their own.”

    that’s American prep, a la Kaplan and Princeton.

  264. @Faraday's Bobcat
    @International Jew


    Having a really deep high end is actually not that necessary on the GRE because anyone smart enough to score really really high will have already come to the attention of a professor who’s well enough connected to place him into a top graduate institution.
     
    2250 GRE in a year long ago when the average was 1581, and I didn't come to anyone's attention. I went to a big state school where the professors were busy teaching 200-student sections and groveling for NSF grants, not cultivating young scholars.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @education realist, @Alice

    The GRE never totalled the scores like that, because the percentiles are too different. So 2250 is a meaningless score.

    But you’re correct, no one cares about high GRE scores.

    • Disagree: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @GazaPlanet
    @education realist

    Adding the three scores (weighting them the same) doesn't really matter much on the right side of the curve because they are not independent variables. If you can do well on the Verbal you should be able to do well on the Quantitative and Analytical, if properly educated (note, Orientals are properly educated with discipline. Whites are not because of an anti-intellectual "egalitarianism" that prevails among American whites. To a large degree, it's just that simple)

    Someone with a poor quantitative has either a cognitive deficit or a very poor mathematical education. Someone with an 800 is at least not noticeably lacking. The old pre-2001 Analytical was easy to game, easier to game the LSAT Analytical, but it was harder than the Quantitative and good test. The GRE Verbal was more or less very close the SAT Verbal. Hard to do well on that. I took the GRE Verbal CAT in 2000 and only scored 730 (2330 total). Lower than all my practice tests, lower than my SATs would have predicted. Still 99 percentile, but how may of the other test takers were foreigners with English as a second language? But the GRE Verbal was the hardest to do perfectly (and of course I did not). Scored 750 with two wrong on the early 1995 (pre change) SAT Verbal.

    And if people are ANNOYED reading this, they may understand the reason the SAT is unpopular. It really is reducing people and their futures to a single test and a single number. It is profoundly anti-egalitarian and it is still a sort of proxy IQ test (even though the g-loading was reduced), in a nation where IQ tests for employment are basically banned because of the IQ disparities among the races.

    , @Faraday's Bobcat
    @education realist

    That may be true. I got a 740 on the quantitative which was only about the 70th %ile for you edumatricians out there. Probably should have at least read through the sample questions in the booklet, or joined an Asian cheating ring.

    I now have a hard science PhD and many publications, but I only got into grad school by taking my first classes at night while I was working 50 hours a week.

  265. @AaronB
    @Wilkey

    Asians are like 25% of top schools, but have won only 5% of Nobels. (Equal to their share of the population, not their share of top schools.)

    So clearly Asian attendance in top schools does not reflect their ability.

    In any event, the SAT no longer does what it was intended - screen for innate ability.

    The SAT was a cultural artifact - assuming a certain type of population with certain attitudes to study, it was a decent tool to screen for innate ability.

    But it only works in that kind of culture - I guess mid-20th century white America, with its particular attitude to studying.

    It is not a useful tool for screening for innate ability in a culture of grinds. The myth that you cannot study for the SAT has now been definitively disproven by Asians.

    Now that America is a different place, with a population with different values, we need to come up with a better way to screen for innate ability.

    I think admitting anyone who wants to go to any college, while flunking those who can't compete in the first year, is not such a bad idea. Universities will acquire reputations that will scare away those who aren't fit for the most part.

    Perhaps the only requirement should be an interview - like they do in Oxford, and used to do to select officers in the WW2 German Army.

    It may be the American obsession with scientific testing is less able to select for talent than more simple human systems like interviews, and the future will see a return to such systems.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Asians are like 25% of top schools, but have won only 5% of Nobels. (Equal to their share of the population, not their share of top schools.)
    So clearly Asian attendance in top schools does not reflect their ability.

    Nobels are a lagging indicator. Most of the winners of the Nobel prize have been born over 80 years ago by now, many others are long dead. So the demographics at that time was what mattered, and East Asian countries were largely much poorer with the exception of Japan.

    We will likely see many more East Asian Nobel prize winners this century, but then again the Nobel committee is becoming more politicised with more “affirmative action” pressure on them, too, in recent years.

    • Replies: @Paul
    @Thulean Friend

    "We will likely see many more East Asian Nobel prize winners this century, but then again the Nobel committee is becoming more politicised with more 'affirmative action' pressure on them, too, in recent years."


    Didn't the Nobel committee, desperate to give a prize in economics to a woman, give one to a woman who is not even an economist?

    , @Biff
    @Thulean Friend


    Nobel committee is becoming more politicised
     
    When they give a prize to a silver tongued stranger from Chicago, who was selected and funded by a crooked banker to enter a crooked election process, and the electronic voting machines do the rest for the big win - then I would say yea the Nobel committee is political.
  266. @anon
    @Slimer

    People want to attend Harvard and Yale because they’re the pinnacle of white globalhomo prestige,

    Fixed.

    Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

    The Trump administration is just as dominated by Ivy Leaguers as the previous four.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Peter Akuleyev

    The Trump administration is just as dominated by Ivy Leaguers as the previous four.

    So?

    Replies: @jack daniels, @Anon

    , @res
    @Peter Akuleyev


    The Trump administration is just as dominated by Ivy Leaguers as the previous four.
     
    Have any data to support that? Obama's cabinet was especially Ivy League dominated.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/6F3ATTVNOIYB5LWCKCOTJ6XAJA.png

    Trump's cabinet is close to GWB's in Ivy League representation, but far from Obama's. More at
    https://quiznox.com/2017/01/23/how-educated-is-trumps-cabinet/

    https://quiznox.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/trump-cabinet-edu-with-acosta-v21.png

    Is anything you say true?

    Replies: @Corvinus

  267. Paul says:
    @Thulean Friend
    @AaronB


    Asians are like 25% of top schools, but have won only 5% of Nobels. (Equal to their share of the population, not their share of top schools.)
    So clearly Asian attendance in top schools does not reflect their ability.
     
    Nobels are a lagging indicator. Most of the winners of the Nobel prize have been born over 80 years ago by now, many others are long dead. So the demographics at that time was what mattered, and East Asian countries were largely much poorer with the exception of Japan.

    We will likely see many more East Asian Nobel prize winners this century, but then again the Nobel committee is becoming more politicised with more "affirmative action" pressure on them, too, in recent years.

    Replies: @Paul, @Biff

    “We will likely see many more East Asian Nobel prize winners this century, but then again the Nobel committee is becoming more politicised with more ‘affirmative action’ pressure on them, too, in recent years.”

    Didn’t the Nobel committee, desperate to give a prize in economics to a woman, give one to a woman who is not even an economist?

  268. Asians can’t innovate, but Northeast Asians can imitate.

    • Replies: @128
    @Paul

    I think they have a better eye for detail than whites? Like Sony TVs vs RCA or Zenith Tvs?

    Replies: @Paul, @MarkinLA

  269. Biff says:
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium
    I agree with the hypothesis that Asians mature faster in terms of intelligence and have a higher comparative IQ at the high school level, but it evens out and then they fall behind whites later on in life. They are also far less creative on average, which may not matter as much for an SAT test, but matters a whole lot throughout your career.

    Anyway, the SAT will likely not go away but what will happen is that colleges will start to take more into account things like "personality", "extracurriculars", "leadership potential", etc. as a way of preventing a campus full of Changs and Lings who do nothing but study and then don't donate anything.

    What may also happen is that Asians effectively take over the current top schools, but later on the schools that are majority-white become the de facto unspoken top schools that most companies would prefer to hire from as the long-term results of majority-white vs majority-Asian staff become evident. This is part of the ultimate fate of any mixing of ethnicities in one territory: balkanization by race. Whites will have their own neighbourhoods, high schools, colleges, and companies. So will Asians, Indians. Jews will move in between and attempt to control all. Blacks and Latinos (except white Latinos who will merge into White) will be forever proles.

    Replies: @education realist, @Senzo, @Anonymous, @Biff, @Derek Jeter, @in the middle, @Chinaman, @Jeremygg5

    but it evens out and then they fall behind whites later on in life. They are also far less creative on average, which may not matter as much for an SAT test, but matters a whole lot throughout your career.

    Could you quantify this? Or is it just an opinion to help yourself feel better?

  270. Biff says:
    @Thulean Friend
    @AaronB


    Asians are like 25% of top schools, but have won only 5% of Nobels. (Equal to their share of the population, not their share of top schools.)
    So clearly Asian attendance in top schools does not reflect their ability.
     
    Nobels are a lagging indicator. Most of the winners of the Nobel prize have been born over 80 years ago by now, many others are long dead. So the demographics at that time was what mattered, and East Asian countries were largely much poorer with the exception of Japan.

    We will likely see many more East Asian Nobel prize winners this century, but then again the Nobel committee is becoming more politicised with more "affirmative action" pressure on them, too, in recent years.

    Replies: @Paul, @Biff

    Nobel committee is becoming more politicised

    When they give a prize to a silver tongued stranger from Chicago, who was selected and funded by a crooked banker to enter a crooked election process, and the electronic voting machines do the rest for the big win – then I would say yea the Nobel committee is political.

  271. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Could we just say human rights Tienanmen reasons and restrict US undergrad slots for PRC nationals to 100 or so? For all schols total? Just tell them go to Canada, Europe, anywhere, not here. An excemption for US yeshivas, madrassas, Christian divinity schools and wherever Buddhists go. Another 100 slots each.

    Because reasons.

  272. You know what is sad? So many anons here that can’t face reality and in full blown denial. Even with Steve blasting the truth to their faces.

    • Agree: vox4non
  273. @Peter Akuleyev
    @anon

    The Trump administration is just as dominated by Ivy Leaguers as the previous four.

    Replies: @anon, @res

    The Trump administration is just as dominated by Ivy Leaguers as the previous four.

    So?

    • Replies: @jack daniels
    @anon

    So Trump's "populism" is largely phony.

    Why not "a cabinet that looks like America" instead of "a cabinet that looks like Harvard"?

    , @Anon
    @anon



    The Trump administration is just as dominated by Ivy Leaguers as the previous four.
     
    So?
     
    So group think.

    The US would be much better off if we simply shut down the (((Traitorous Eight))), or just force them to move the hell out of the country.

  274. Since everything is structured and interpreted around group identities now, maybe we could switch over to some group-oriented testing…

    — a test for which group builds the best societies that other groups want to live in rather than their own,

    — a test for which group can build the best large, sophisticated, high-prestige public university system,

    — a test for which group is best at scamming, cheating, and gaming arrangements to gain access to systems built by other groups,

    — a test for which group is best at sneaking into a system under false pretenses and then switching the power structure to benefit themselves…

    Still waiting for high-IQ, high-earning, high-achieving Asians to build world-class Sun Yat-sen University, way out in Joshua Tree, after they develop the place and make it habitable and pleasant to live in, using legendary Asian hard work and vision…

    • Replies: @res
    @The Germ Theory of Disease


    Still waiting for high-IQ, high-earning, high-achieving Asians to build world-class Sun Yat-sen University
     
    Be careful what you ask for.
    https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings-articles/qs-best-student-cities/beijing
    https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2020
  275. Armenian are cheaters. We went to school with a bunch of them. Good ass kissers, but bad mediocre students

    • Replies: @GazaPlanet
    @Charles babbage

    Armenians are good at Chess.

  276. @Stephen Dodge
    @jbwilson24

    I know people who can outcompete almost anyone, people who can write better poetry than the most famous English poets, people who can school the top tier of Chinese mathematicians on what mathematics really is, and vice versa, and it is not because they have rejected laziness.

    The two words you need in order to understand the world are "angelic" and "inspiration".

    Trust me, no one is impressed by a fellow human being who works hard, the only thing that impresses a fellow human being is access to angelic inspiration, and trust me, nobody is talking about that. Absolutely nobody thinks that little Bill Gates is a genius, much less Zuckerberg or Warren Buffett or that Ali Baba dude. We all understand why they are rich - right place, right time, lots of sweat and late nights doing boring crap in order to get a leg up on the other guy ---- but let's face it, none of them are young men with beautiful wives, and we all know that for that reason they are not elite.

    I could give you good advice, but I already did. Verbum sapienti sufficit. Reread Proverbs 8 if this comment confused you.

    Replies: @Bumpkin

    Good point. It never ceases to amaze me how much normal people, including most commenters here, don’t realize that real intellectual accomplishment has nothing to do with college or academia and is not really about “hard work,” at least much of the time and as they’d imagine it. Put all the high-scoring grunts or high-achieving academics you want in a room and tell them to independently come up with what Claude Shannon, the father of information theory which underlies electrical circuits and telecommunications, did and you might as well be waiting on monkeys banging away on typewriters for a thousand years for all the results you’d get.

    That’s because intellectual discipline, the ability to reject ideological fashions, and creativity, the motive to ramble around along with a “nose” to sniff out promising lines of thought, have always been severely dismissed, even more so with current college tests and job hiring. Yet those are the most valuable abilities now, but nobody talks about them (only disagree with the non sequitur about “beautiful wives:” they couldn’t pick out a Shannon if their life depended on it, or be attracted to him).

  277. @anonymous jew
    @Pooh Bear 250

    There are a handful of studies on Fancy Asians adopted at birth and raised by Whites in Western countries. I don't think Asians put out for adoption are representative of Asians in general either. And yet these adopted Fancy Asian rejects still - just slightly - outperform Whites.

    Fancy Asians aren't necessarily succeeding (at least on tests) because they're some cognitive elite of the East. Also, the behaviors that you describe - ie being agreeable and focused - are heritable just like IQ. I think cultural factors could explain a lot, particularly Asians pulling away. But even if US Asians were completely representative of their populations and fully assimilated, there's plenty of evidence they would still produce more high scoring grinds that never make it beyond middle management.

    But I do agree that there's more to success than IQ. I noted before that I think Jews' low levels of agreeableness can actually be an advantage in many fields. (I think there's more to Jewish success than being tribal and nepotism, but that's another story).

    Replies: @Lot, @Bardon Kaldian, @Lowry Samuel, @Anon

    Think people are missing current developments at Top Ivies and Bugle Bracket Banks/Elite Boutiques. Asians (East Asians and Indians) are hugely overrepresented in Economics majors and finance club last at Top Schools (HYPSW)…and have been funneling into bulge bracket banks/elite boutiques/PE for years now. Tons of Asians are present in low/middle ranks in these places and will soon, say 10 yrs, dominate upper management (elite bankers/money managers) there too. Forget medicine, consulting, law. These finance gigs pay very serious money and in 20 yrs they will be hugely Asian…from top to bottom.

    Once these heights are conquered, many, many results will flow through American society. Plus, what do the remaining white gentiles and Jews do? Dominance will flow from here…plus there is a neever ending supply of new Asian immigrants to expand the beachhead and take the place of any Asians that might slack off.

  278. It’s not that hard to game these tests. Whites have a very strong anti-intellectual anti-pedantic bias that oriental families, only a couple of generations from the rice paddy, have not yet developed. Had I been properly schooled and in better mental physical condition I would have scored close to a 1600 on the SAT. I did fine, I did fine on the GRE too. (have a sibling accepted to Harvard, another sibling neurosurgeon) But if I were an oriental with oriental parents I’m pretty sure I would have done better.

    The tests no longer benefit Jews as they are now. Even with their special test days (because the SAT usually takes place for all the gentiles on Saturday). Now that everyone knows how Charles Schumer scored well, it just doesn’t benefit them the way it did in the past. Besides, with money, the Jared Kushners don’t have to lower themselves to the level of rigging a test. They are far too meritocratic for the sort of society that has developed, that cares primarily about conformity to the elite agenda, and cannot tolerate the use of a test (once a virtual proxy for IQ, that was done away with years ago). In the WWII era they tried to put farm boys from Southern Indiana into Yale – one of them was my next door neighbor. Those days are long gone.

    Let’s not blame the orientals doing well on the SAT for the demise of the SAT. For most people, the SAT is NOT a ticket to a higher level of status. To the contrary, for most people, for the vast majority, the SAT is a barrier to advancement. And most perniciously for the wealthy and upper middle class who after all know that spoiling their children is more important to their overall status than any test score ever.

    The SAT is not going away because orientals work hard enough to game the test that is not nearly as difficult to ace as it was in the past. The SAT is not going away because of the peculiar maturation of orientals relative to whites (the different races have different maturation rates, another reason that forced racial integration MUST BE ABOLISHED). The SAT is going away because the SAT is resolutely despised by the Kushners and everyone who sees it as an obstacle to their success, an “unfair” “biased” test that after all is only a “multiple choice test” that has nothing to do with “common sense” or “refinement and artistic sensibility” or “social awareness and emotional depth.”

    The slants are just test taking automata churned out like everything else in Asia. They are fundamentally mimickers. They have no personality, no pizazz, they aren’t cool like black people. And their women all want white men. So the SAT must be banned. Because of the poor hapless orientals, an entire RACE OF NERDS, are too damned good at it!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @GazaPlanet

    You sound bitter and delusion.

    Someone is envious of his siblings and orientals.

    Keep telling yourself you could have pulled a 1600 on the SAT. You can’t even write a couple of paragraphs without repeatedly contradictIng yourself.

    Replies: @GazaPlanet, @GazaPlanet

    , @eastkekiisawhiteguy
    @GazaPlanet

    Have these nerds ever last a war with the small brain british till today my friend, these nerds ever deserted the battlefield, did british race invent any fighting arts, you jealous because the nerds are now desired by every woman in the world or a slant eyed woman rejected you incel

  279. @Steve Sailer
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    Right, maybe if you go to Williams or Amherst, you will come to the attention of your well-connected professor, but at the U. of Illinois?

    Replies: @black sea

    I know a retired engineering professor who used to pitch his exams at a very high level, then curve the grades substantially. His son, a friend of mine, asked him why he gave such hard exams, and he answered that every once in a while you came across a student who got an uncurved 90 or 95, and you immediately identified him as someone with PhD potential.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @black sea

    Harder tests are actually more fair. They separate those who know the material pretty well from those who know it really well.

  280. @education realist
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    The GRE never totalled the scores like that, because the percentiles are too different. So 2250 is a meaningless score.

    But you're correct, no one cares about high GRE scores.

    Replies: @GazaPlanet, @Faraday's Bobcat

    Adding the three scores (weighting them the same) doesn’t really matter much on the right side of the curve because they are not independent variables. If you can do well on the Verbal you should be able to do well on the Quantitative and Analytical, if properly educated (note, Orientals are properly educated with discipline. Whites are not because of an anti-intellectual “egalitarianism” that prevails among American whites. To a large degree, it’s just that simple)

    Someone with a poor quantitative has either a cognitive deficit or a very poor mathematical education. Someone with an 800 is at least not noticeably lacking. The old pre-2001 Analytical was easy to game, easier to game the LSAT Analytical, but it was harder than the Quantitative and good test. The GRE Verbal was more or less very close the SAT Verbal. Hard to do well on that. I took the GRE Verbal CAT in 2000 and only scored 730 (2330 total). Lower than all my practice tests, lower than my SATs would have predicted. Still 99 percentile, but how may of the other test takers were foreigners with English as a second language? But the GRE Verbal was the hardest to do perfectly (and of course I did not). Scored 750 with two wrong on the early 1995 (pre change) SAT Verbal.

    And if people are ANNOYED reading this, they may understand the reason the SAT is unpopular. It really is reducing people and their futures to a single test and a single number. It is profoundly anti-egalitarian and it is still a sort of proxy IQ test (even though the g-loading was reduced), in a nation where IQ tests for employment are basically banned because of the IQ disparities among the races.

  281. @Menschmaschine
    @Paul

    The simplest explanation is of course that some region had to be the first one - it was always implausible that several would reach the age of science and the industrial revolution at exactly the same time. This does not rule out that genetic factors like a stronger tendency for conformism played some role, but there is no reason to assume that Asians wouldn't have gotten there eventually on their own.

    Replies: @vhrm, @Paul, @MarkinLA

    “The simplest explanation is of course that some region had to be the first one – it was always implausible that several would reach the age of science and the industrial revolution at exactly the same time.”

    Those were, of course, long ago.

  282. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:
    @Znzn
    @Lot

    Why are there so few East Asian race engineers or technical directors in F1, which is the pinnacle of motorsport, and any Japanese teams that do enter F1 are actually ran by white people, and Wall Street is ran by Whites, Indians, or Jews, and Jews, Indians, or Whites like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos run Silicon Valley. In fact you have an Indian as the former head of Deutsche Bank and a Black Africa as an CEO of Credit Suisse, but no East Asian as the CEO of any large European or US bank.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Maybe East Asians are racially and culturally incompatible with the rest of the human race?

    After all, although Indian and Black African immigrants do quite well in White nations, their own home nations are doing a good deal . . . worse . . . than the East Asian region.

    This tells me that East Asian individuals can be very high-performing in their own lands, and among their own racial-cultural mind-set. It stands to reason, because East Asian CEOs, managerial talent, and governance, as well as Asian chief-engineers and Asian head-researchers make these societies successful, no one else.

    East Asians, however, struggle mightily to make headway in other cultural milieux.

    As an aggregate group, East Asians do well anywhere, but as individuals, East Asians are mediocre anywhere outside North East Asia, South East Asia or Africa. They are middle-tier material in most white economies, only coming into their own when starting companies in Silicon Valley, and other fields where culture matters less than usual.

    Does the central thesis, that Easy Asians, and by extension even Asians in the West, are very alien and incompatible to the rest of humanity, hold any water?

    • Replies: @128
    @Anonymous

    East Asians actually underperform Whites, Indians, and Jews by a lot in Silicon Valley. East Asian countries like Korea, Taiwan, and Japan actually have pretty low per capita GDP compared to the US or Western Europe relative to GDP.

    , @vhrm
    @Anonymous


    Does the central thesis, that Easy Asians, and by extension even Asians in the West, are very alien and incompatible to the rest of humanity, hold any water?
     
    imo, not at all. As you said yourself, they tend to do fine. Why would lower rates of being CEOs indicate anything as serious as "very alien" or "incompatible to rest of humanity"? Maybe I've been living in the SF Bay Area too long, but here they're just normal people... some of them are doctors, some of them are bus drivers, some of the immigrants work at 99 ranch (Asian supermarket) or restaurants or in construction their whole lives and never learn English...
    All the highschool kids listen to Drake and mumble rap crap like everyone else. Some of them listen to EDM and go to raves...

    Having to adapt to a new language and culture probably IS a bigger obstacle to East Asian immigrants, more than those from western cultures. English seems pretty hard for East Asians. American Born Chinese though are pretty darned American across the board. More consistently so than 2nd gen Latinos I'd say (though i don't know Latinos as well)

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Anonymous


    Maybe East Asians are racially and culturally incompatible with the rest of the human race?

    After all, although Indian and Black African immigrants do quite well in White nations, their own home nations are doing a good deal . . . worse . . . than the East Asian region.
     

    I don't think so. They are very successful in intellectual professions, sciences, engineering, finances (just check who are the richest individuals in Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia,..).

    They are not very visible in the area of entertainment (sports, music, film,..) & chattering classes plus law (journalism, public "intellectuals", media, lawyers,..)- but this only shows that contemporary Western values gravitate towards idiocracy, and east Asians won't, or can't, be a part of that circus.

    Replies: @Derek Jeter, @Truth

    , @Anon
    @Anonymous

    IMO East Asians' non-confrontational nature hurt them in career advancements and in professions like law, media, journalism, academia, politics, i.e. the chattering classes as Bardon Kaldian pointed out. The reason they haven't received more recognition in scientific research or technological innovation is because the (((white))) professor/founder usually gets all the credit for their work. They are much more like the understated, introverted Germans, Swiss and Scandinavians (though not as honest) than the chest-thumping Jews, Indians and blacks.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @Alden

  283. @Charles babbage
    Armenian are cheaters. We went to school with a bunch of them. Good ass kissers, but bad mediocre students

    Replies: @GazaPlanet

    Armenians are good at Chess.

  284. I’d like you all to contemplate this:

    What if the coeducational public funded secondary school was established primarily to give Freemasons and their sons (or local Communist Party leaders) more access to the local young women? What if the real purpose of the whole modern secondary education system in the USA and to a lesser extent in other countries was to make young women available for easy seduction and revolutionary “sexual liberation.” I really think it’s quite possible that that is the reason.

    Because the reason for the public secondary education system in the US SURE AS HELL isn’t about helping the intelligent boys achieve success in life through education.

    John Von Neumann said the schools needed better teachers. Well that would mean rewarding intelligent young men, nobodies, with respectable wages. Putting them in close proximity to young women! No way in hell American liberals would put up with that.

    • Replies: @vot tak
    @GazaPlanet

    Yes, good point, shlomo, "loose" females are the bane of homosexual predation. If your typical male has a choice between girls and boys to choose from, most will naturally choose to be with girls. So they must have that choice taken away from them, the girl choice needs to be removed, so they will be more susceptible to homosexual predation. ;-D

    Replies: @GazaPlanet

  285. @Paul
    Asians can't innovate, but Northeast Asians can imitate.

    Replies: @128

    I think they have a better eye for detail than whites? Like Sony TVs vs RCA or Zenith Tvs?

    • Replies: @Paul
    @128

    Japanese car companies seem to like American design. They will hire American designers.

    , @MarkinLA
    @128

    The whole TV thing was Jimmy Carter letting the Japanese dump TVs into the US market in return for Japan saying nothing about US warships docked in Japan carrying nuclear weapons which was against the Japanese Constitution the US forced on them. Japanese TV makers were backed by MITI. The US ones had to survive based on their own resources and couldn't keep up.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  286. Anonymous[798] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malcolm Y
    It could be the cream of asia was skimmed off and came here screwing our own moderately intelligent white people. Along with the propensity of their parents to make them walk over hot coals to attain a goal. I taught some fairly bright asians, years ago, they could read a book and regurgitate chapter and verse - but almost anything else was a mystery. Maybe they've improved on that model.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    From what I have seen in Asia, having been assigned there, the Asian cream of the crop do not go to the West at all.

    If you could divide a population into slices of 25% (so-called “quartiles”), the the top quartile of East Asia are so privileged and comfortable at home that they don’t bother emigrating. They are already the smartest and best performers at home, with the best jobs, opportunities and lifestyles, and – very importantly – surrounded by their own kind to boot (that is very important!)

    What you need to watch out for is that 2nd highest quartile, below the cream of the crop but themselves smarter and better than the rest of their population.

    This group has way, way less leeway and favor in Asia. All the top corporate spots are taken, all the successful businesses are owned by the top 25%, they are priced out of the best neighborhoods, their kids aren’t quite as smart as those above them, etc., such that the 2nd 25% find it hard to enjoy the best lifestyles.

    But they remain a very ambitious, competitive and hard-working group, and are in the upper half of Asian performance, just not quite the best.

    This is the population quartile that emigrates to White nations, and are not to be underestimated.

    • Replies: @128
    @Anonymous

    Like how Toyota makes better SUVs than the Big 3 now? We have seen how their top quartile performs for a long time already, look at Taiwan, Japan, and Korea, honestly they are not all that.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @eastkekiisawhiteguy

  287. @Anonymous
    @Malcolm Y

    From what I have seen in Asia, having been assigned there, the Asian cream of the crop do not go to the West at all.

    If you could divide a population into slices of 25% (so-called "quartiles"), the the top quartile of East Asia are so privileged and comfortable at home that they don't bother emigrating. They are already the smartest and best performers at home, with the best jobs, opportunities and lifestyles, and - very importantly - surrounded by their own kind to boot (that is very important!)

    What you need to watch out for is that 2nd highest quartile, below the cream of the crop but themselves smarter and better than the rest of their population.

    This group has way, way less leeway and favor in Asia. All the top corporate spots are taken, all the successful businesses are owned by the top 25%, they are priced out of the best neighborhoods, their kids aren't quite as smart as those above them, etc., such that the 2nd 25% find it hard to enjoy the best lifestyles.

    But they remain a very ambitious, competitive and hard-working group, and are in the upper half of Asian performance, just not quite the best.

    This is the population quartile that emigrates to White nations, and are not to be underestimated.

    Replies: @128

    Like how Toyota makes better SUVs than the Big 3 now? We have seen how their top quartile performs for a long time already, look at Taiwan, Japan, and Korea, honestly they are not all that.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @128

    Americans don't like Lexus SUVs?

    Replies: @128, @thordaddy

    , @eastkekiisawhiteguy
    @128

    Toyota suvs are the cream of the crop like the Landcruiser, lexuslx570, RX350 and 350H. RAVS annd a bunch of others I cant bother to look up, hondas ,mdx, pilot, CRV ,all infinitis ,all mazdas , suzukis from asia like the Jimny, nissan patrol aka infinity Q80 and Armada, give me a german or british thats better let alone any from the big three.Everyone of them has excellent resale while the germans will be 30% of what they were brand new in five years , germans, britzys and americans autos are truly disposable.

  288. @Anonymous
    @Znzn

    Maybe East Asians are racially and culturally incompatible with the rest of the human race?

    After all, although Indian and Black African immigrants do quite well in White nations, their own home nations are doing a good deal . . . worse . . . than the East Asian region.

    This tells me that East Asian individuals can be very high-performing in their own lands, and among their own racial-cultural mind-set. It stands to reason, because East Asian CEOs, managerial talent, and governance, as well as Asian chief-engineers and Asian head-researchers make these societies successful, no one else.

    East Asians, however, struggle mightily to make headway in other cultural milieux.

    As an aggregate group, East Asians do well anywhere, but as individuals, East Asians are mediocre anywhere outside North East Asia, South East Asia or Africa. They are middle-tier material in most white economies, only coming into their own when starting companies in Silicon Valley, and other fields where culture matters less than usual.

    Does the central thesis, that Easy Asians, and by extension even Asians in the West, are very alien and incompatible to the rest of humanity, hold any water?

    Replies: @128, @vhrm, @Bardon Kaldian, @Anon

    East Asians actually underperform Whites, Indians, and Jews by a lot in Silicon Valley. East Asian countries like Korea, Taiwan, and Japan actually have pretty low per capita GDP compared to the US or Western Europe relative to GDP.

  289. vhrm says:
    @Anonymous
    @Znzn

    Maybe East Asians are racially and culturally incompatible with the rest of the human race?

    After all, although Indian and Black African immigrants do quite well in White nations, their own home nations are doing a good deal . . . worse . . . than the East Asian region.

    This tells me that East Asian individuals can be very high-performing in their own lands, and among their own racial-cultural mind-set. It stands to reason, because East Asian CEOs, managerial talent, and governance, as well as Asian chief-engineers and Asian head-researchers make these societies successful, no one else.

    East Asians, however, struggle mightily to make headway in other cultural milieux.

    As an aggregate group, East Asians do well anywhere, but as individuals, East Asians are mediocre anywhere outside North East Asia, South East Asia or Africa. They are middle-tier material in most white economies, only coming into their own when starting companies in Silicon Valley, and other fields where culture matters less than usual.

    Does the central thesis, that Easy Asians, and by extension even Asians in the West, are very alien and incompatible to the rest of humanity, hold any water?

    Replies: @128, @vhrm, @Bardon Kaldian, @Anon

    Does the central thesis, that Easy Asians, and by extension even Asians in the West, are very alien and incompatible to the rest of humanity, hold any water?

    imo, not at all. As you said yourself, they tend to do fine. Why would lower rates of being CEOs indicate anything as serious as “very alien” or “incompatible to rest of humanity”? Maybe I’ve been living in the SF Bay Area too long, but here they’re just normal people… some of them are doctors, some of them are bus drivers, some of the immigrants work at 99 ranch (Asian supermarket) or restaurants or in construction their whole lives and never learn English…
    All the highschool kids listen to Drake and mumble rap crap like everyone else. Some of them listen to EDM and go to raves…

    Having to adapt to a new language and culture probably IS a bigger obstacle to East Asian immigrants, more than those from western cultures. English seems pretty hard for East Asians. American Born Chinese though are pretty darned American across the board. More consistently so than 2nd gen Latinos I’d say (though i don’t know Latinos as well)

  290. @128
    @Anonymous

    Like how Toyota makes better SUVs than the Big 3 now? We have seen how their top quartile performs for a long time already, look at Taiwan, Japan, and Korea, honestly they are not all that.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    Americans don’t like Lexus SUVs?

    • Replies: @128
    @Steve Sailer

    Sequia? Lexus only seems to sell well in US. Elsewhere Mercedes and BMW SUVs seem to be prominent. Curiously Japanese and Korean automakers never seem to have made much headway in Europe.

    Replies: @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    , @thordaddy
    @Steve Sailer

    In this context, the use of upper-cased (S)upremacy is fallacious.

    Objective Supremacy understood properly is Perfection.

    Ergo, “Asian Supremacy” would translate to an Asian desire for Perfection.

    In your scenarios, “Asian (s)upremacy” would be more appropriate given the relational juxtapositioning of whites and Asians.

  291. @TheMassageIsTheMedium
    I agree with the hypothesis that Asians mature faster in terms of intelligence and have a higher comparative IQ at the high school level, but it evens out and then they fall behind whites later on in life. They are also far less creative on average, which may not matter as much for an SAT test, but matters a whole lot throughout your career.

    Anyway, the SAT will likely not go away but what will happen is that colleges will start to take more into account things like "personality", "extracurriculars", "leadership potential", etc. as a way of preventing a campus full of Changs and Lings who do nothing but study and then don't donate anything.

    What may also happen is that Asians effectively take over the current top schools, but later on the schools that are majority-white become the de facto unspoken top schools that most companies would prefer to hire from as the long-term results of majority-white vs majority-Asian staff become evident. This is part of the ultimate fate of any mixing of ethnicities in one territory: balkanization by race. Whites will have their own neighbourhoods, high schools, colleges, and companies. So will Asians, Indians. Jews will move in between and attempt to control all. Blacks and Latinos (except white Latinos who will merge into White) will be forever proles.

    Replies: @education realist, @Senzo, @Anonymous, @Biff, @Derek Jeter, @in the middle, @Chinaman, @Jeremygg5

    The IQ differences are all bullshit. ALL races are the same on average. Lot of white folks here are fetishizing Asians because it’s a PC-way to express their hatred towards blacks. These whites do not speak for Asians. I highly doubt there are any Asians here on Unz. The Asians I’ve met don’t go around bragging about high IQs and ethnic supremacy. They are just out there to advance their career and couldn’t care less about demonstrating their high IQs. It’s just whites who use the Asian IQ scores to do circuitous, sidelong attacks against blacks and Hispanics.

    Fact of the matter is: the supposed IQ differences are all BS. The whole test is a load of baloney. Just an ideological tool and construct. As far as SAT scores go, if you study all day, including doing after-school programs until 9 p.m. like many Asians are forced to do, believe it or not, but you will get a high SAT score too.

    IQ supremacy in itelf is gay af. In Asian countries, people don’t look down on low IQ countrymen.
    How many girls actually are into “high IQ” guys (and I know it’s not mutually exclusive with other abilities)? People boasting of “high IQ” usually are deficient in other areas of life (social skills, charisma, athleticism, etc.), and they cling to the IQ stuff because it protects their fragile egos. High IQ types are autistic weirdos with no social skills. A decent amount of smarts is good, but beyond that, it’s a diminishing returns kind of thing.

    • Agree: Derek Jeter
    • LOL: TheTrumanShow
    • Replies: @jack daniels
    @Derek Jeter

    I agree there is a tendency to think one's high IQ = superiority; that is human nature. The guy with a big penis thinks that too indicates superiority. However IQ affords an objective measure of ability that correlates well with both academic and job success.

    You are right that Asian IQ is invoked by non-Asians to justify anti-black or anti-Latino attitudes. However, we live in a society where every area in which minorities under-perform is regarded as an effect of white oppression. Surely this is "BS" and whites are justified in looking for ways to respond. That Asian superiority in IQ refutes the "white privilege" account of IQ tests explains why it is often mentioned, or at least why it is reasonable to mention it.

    , @reezy
    @Derek Jeter

    Lulz whatever makes you sleep better at night Brotha

    , @Dino
    @Derek Jeter

    @derek

    I read somewhere that basically there are only few - 16, types of human personality, of course with infinite combination of traits. They exists in every strata of society. Nurturing and surrounding is big factor for your success no matter what you do and success itslef is a very relative term. Having said that there are smart people every where without without college degree and so are the dumb. We have people with character and leeches too...some are flexible, some are rigid. Everyone games the system, unless they are passionate about it. Once you are passionate about what you are doing and can make a successful living, you dont have to game, but you will still have tonprotect your turf. Life is brutal, which ever way you want to think :)

    , @Duke84
    @Derek Jeter

    People who say IQ tests are BS usually didn't score very high when they took one.

  292. @Anonymous
    @Znzn

    Maybe East Asians are racially and culturally incompatible with the rest of the human race?

    After all, although Indian and Black African immigrants do quite well in White nations, their own home nations are doing a good deal . . . worse . . . than the East Asian region.

    This tells me that East Asian individuals can be very high-performing in their own lands, and among their own racial-cultural mind-set. It stands to reason, because East Asian CEOs, managerial talent, and governance, as well as Asian chief-engineers and Asian head-researchers make these societies successful, no one else.

    East Asians, however, struggle mightily to make headway in other cultural milieux.

    As an aggregate group, East Asians do well anywhere, but as individuals, East Asians are mediocre anywhere outside North East Asia, South East Asia or Africa. They are middle-tier material in most white economies, only coming into their own when starting companies in Silicon Valley, and other fields where culture matters less than usual.

    Does the central thesis, that Easy Asians, and by extension even Asians in the West, are very alien and incompatible to the rest of humanity, hold any water?

    Replies: @128, @vhrm, @Bardon Kaldian, @Anon

    Maybe East Asians are racially and culturally incompatible with the rest of the human race?

    After all, although Indian and Black African immigrants do quite well in White nations, their own home nations are doing a good deal . . . worse . . . than the East Asian region.

    I don’t think so. They are very successful in intellectual professions, sciences, engineering, finances (just check who are the richest individuals in Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia,..).

    They are not very visible in the area of entertainment (sports, music, film,..) & chattering classes plus law (journalism, public “intellectuals”, media, lawyers,..)- but this only shows that contemporary Western values gravitate towards idiocracy, and east Asians won’t, or can’t, be a part of that circus.

    • Replies: @Derek Jeter
    @Bardon Kaldian


    They are not very visible in the area of entertainment (sports, music, film,..) & chattering classes plus law (journalism, public “intellectuals”, media, lawyers,..)- but this only shows that contemporary Western values gravitate towards idiocracy, and east Asians won’t, or can’t, be a part of that circus.
     
    Connie Chung disagrees with you.

    Sarah Jeong too.
    , @Truth
    @Bardon Kaldian


    but this only shows that contemporary Western values gravitate towards idiocracy, and east Asians won’t, or can’t, be a part of that circus.
     
    No? but 1.3 billion of them will willingly be part of a "social credit" system which enslaves them by their cell phones?
  293. @Steve Sailer
    @128

    Americans don't like Lexus SUVs?

    Replies: @128, @thordaddy

    Sequia? Lexus only seems to sell well in US. Elsewhere Mercedes and BMW SUVs seem to be prominent. Curiously Japanese and Korean automakers never seem to have made much headway in Europe.

    • Replies: @eastkekiisawhiteguy
    @128

    Your a moron like the rest of the redneck male that buys only american trucks, europeans also will never buy buy asian cars ,If it was'nt for asians and minorities and women, japanese cars in US would also have gone the same route as in europe you people buy crap even if it is disposable for this reason german and american cars are never gonna improve their reliability, asians save more of our money buying reliable japanese cars as opposed to you guys that throw your money away leasing disposable european cars that has lost 70% of its purchase price in five years

  294. @128
    @Paul

    I think they have a better eye for detail than whites? Like Sony TVs vs RCA or Zenith Tvs?

    Replies: @Paul, @MarkinLA

    Japanese car companies seem to like American design. They will hire American designers.

  295. There are about 2 billion Asian people in the World. Whites are about 700 million. It’s natural that there will be many smart Asian people simple because Asian people are more.

  296. At the University of California schools, Asian dominance of undergraduate admissions is pretty obvious. For example, here is the demographics of the #3 prestige college in the system. UC San Diego in paradisiacal La Jolla.

    Asian Americans make up 37% of undergrads versus only 19% of white Americans. But another 19% are international students, most of them Asian, so Asians probably outnumber white about 2..5 to one at UC San Diego among undergrads.

    It would be unthinkable in China that white Anglos take up more than half of undergraduate places in their universities.

    And the Chinese wouldn’t care about test scores. It would be based on the fact that China is the national home of ethnic Chinese, and the purpose of Chinese education is to advance ethnic Chinese people. In other words it’s a decision based on racial Chinese nationalism.

    At some point (soon) Anglo Americans are going to have to break out of the MSM/multicultural trap and say that North America is their home, they founded it, and they’ll run it for the development and wellbeing of Anglo American people.

    In fact, they need to to do everything that the Jewish run administration/media/academia aims to prevent – with their ongoing race replacement project (from the mid 1960’s). The object is the destruction of white Anglo identity with their removal from society, the same as Jews were demonized and physically removed from Central and Eastern Europe 1933 – 1945.

    There is a genuine Jewish war on Anglo-American society.

  297. @LostInTgeWoods
    Higher education is running out of white kids

    What do you mean by this? There are probably still more whites than either Asians or Latinos taken as individual groups.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Gyre07, @Justsaying

    Interesting that the disenchantment with SAT is now coming from Whites. I thought all along that that was the exclusive preserve of the purportedly genetically inferior Blacks and Latinos. Shifting the goal posts became necessary when Asians stopped reading the script and started excelling. How dare they!

    • Agree: Biff, vox4non
    • Replies: @Truth
    @Justsaying


    How dare they!

     

    Hah!

    It is funny, 10 years ago "Thuuuur making the SATs unecessary!!!"

    Now "We neeeed to make the SATs unecessary..!!!"


    https://youtu.be/pRrsjky4sM8?t=56
  298. LOL, when whites dominated sat scores, sat was cool. Now that whites don’t dominate the sat scores, sat is not cool, basically sums up this article.

  299. @Steve Sailer
    @128

    Americans don't like Lexus SUVs?

    Replies: @128, @thordaddy

    In this context, the use of upper-cased (S)upremacy is fallacious.

    Objective Supremacy understood properly is Perfection.

    Ergo, “Asian Supremacy” would translate to an Asian desire for Perfection.

    In your scenarios, “Asian (s)upremacy” would be more appropriate given the relational juxtapositioning of whites and Asians.

  300. @education realist
    The thing is, the UC system has been trying to manipulate the SAT for years to make the test less g-dependent. That did two things, at different times.

    First, by removing all the vocabulary (first antonyms, then analogies,) and the quantitative comparisons and other g-loaded math questions that weren't necessarily advanced, but were difficult.

    Then, by *increasing* the years of math needed to do well on the test.

    So an easier verbal section and a math section that rewards swotting, not brains.

    Couple that with something that Americans, regardless of race, really can't comprehend, which is the hours and hours and hours and hours that otherwise ordinary immigrant Asian kids put into the SAT.

    UC spent 15 years thinking it was a black/white world, and now they have too many Asians.

    I mean, leave aside cheating, which seems to be rampant overseas and, given the shocking ease that random rich folks had in bringing in proxies into the testing room, it may be here as well.

    But I don't think that they'll be able to stay the "No test" course and as you point out, Steve, they're already saying they'll develop their own test, which will have all the same issues.

    Not sure where it goes from here, except I can't seriously see the top UCs maintaining their ranking if all become UC Riverside.

    I've seen some mention of them using the CA state test, the SBAC. That only has four scores. But even 4 scores creates a huge achievement gap.

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @Some Guy, @Gimeiyo, @Bumpkin, @Happy tapir

    This is interesting. They also “recentered” the sat mean in 1995, which had the effect of compressing the top 200 points of scores, 1400-1600. High iq societies stopped accepting the sat at that time. In the book Affirmative Action Hoax, Farron makes a very detailed argument that this action was clearly aimed at lessening the gap between whites and blacks. I highly recommend this book to Sailer and his readers. The section on the usmle, the medical licensure exam, is the most shocking. I have heard they were planning to dumb that test down again because certain students were having trouble passing. Hmm, given that 99.5% of whites pass in three tries, I wonder who they could be referring to!?

    I would be interested to know the dates on which the various actions to prevent g loading occurred.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Happy tapir


    Hmm, given that 99.5% of whites pass in three tries
     
    Wow, that's impressive.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it2EDnPRrcI

    Replies: @Happy tapir

  301. Anonymous[578] • Disclaimer says:
    @GazaPlanet
    It's not that hard to game these tests. Whites have a very strong anti-intellectual anti-pedantic bias that oriental families, only a couple of generations from the rice paddy, have not yet developed. Had I been properly schooled and in better mental physical condition I would have scored close to a 1600 on the SAT. I did fine, I did fine on the GRE too. (have a sibling accepted to Harvard, another sibling neurosurgeon) But if I were an oriental with oriental parents I'm pretty sure I would have done better.

    The tests no longer benefit Jews as they are now. Even with their special test days (because the SAT usually takes place for all the gentiles on Saturday). Now that everyone knows how Charles Schumer scored well, it just doesn't benefit them the way it did in the past. Besides, with money, the Jared Kushners don't have to lower themselves to the level of rigging a test. They are far too meritocratic for the sort of society that has developed, that cares primarily about conformity to the elite agenda, and cannot tolerate the use of a test (once a virtual proxy for IQ, that was done away with years ago). In the WWII era they tried to put farm boys from Southern Indiana into Yale - one of them was my next door neighbor. Those days are long gone.

    Let's not blame the orientals doing well on the SAT for the demise of the SAT. For most people, the SAT is NOT a ticket to a higher level of status. To the contrary, for most people, for the vast majority, the SAT is a barrier to advancement. And most perniciously for the wealthy and upper middle class who after all know that spoiling their children is more important to their overall status than any test score ever.

    The SAT is not going away because orientals work hard enough to game the test that is not nearly as difficult to ace as it was in the past. The SAT is not going away because of the peculiar maturation of orientals relative to whites (the different races have different maturation rates, another reason that forced racial integration MUST BE ABOLISHED). The SAT is going away because the SAT is resolutely despised by the Kushners and everyone who sees it as an obstacle to their success, an "unfair" "biased" test that after all is only a "multiple choice test" that has nothing to do with "common sense" or "refinement and artistic sensibility" or "social awareness and emotional depth."

    The slants are just test taking automata churned out like everything else in Asia. They are fundamentally mimickers. They have no personality, no pizazz, they aren't cool like black people. And their women all want white men. So the SAT must be banned. Because of the poor hapless orientals, an entire RACE OF NERDS, are too damned good at it!

    Replies: @Anonymous, @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    You sound bitter and delusion.

    Someone is envious of his siblings and orientals.

    Keep telling yourself you could have pulled a 1600 on the SAT. You can’t even write a couple of paragraphs without repeatedly contradictIng yourself.

    • Replies: @GazaPlanet
    @Anonymous

    delete

    , @GazaPlanet
    @Anonymous

    You know I was discussing with some mainland Chinese about 20 years ago, my sister's acceptance to Harvard. They said the whole family would work together to make sure a child could take such an opportunity. In fact my sister opted for Georgetown, over Princeton and Yale, which seems stupid and contrarian, but that maybe that's how we are sometimes. I suppose I am rather full of bitterness, but not for my siblings, that would be ridiculous. Nor am I bitter at orientals, they remain objects of pity, as they were in 1920. Besides the orientals must be immune to prodding. I am not bitter at Orientals but envious. Just kidding. No, I am bitter at myself alone. As for delusion. It's certainly possible I'm underestimating the difficulty of raising my score a few points, but seeing as I did raise my score the next year on the other section, no I don't think so. I am convinced those tests (at least when I took them) can be gamed, and had I had a better education over the years, it stands to reason my scores would have been higher. I don't think I could have scored perfectly though, barring extraordinary luck.

  302. There are historical examples regarding the impact of “open university admissions”. In the 1960s, any Kansas high school graduate was automatically admitted to Kansas State University, a Land Grant institution. The freshman year was a calculated “weeding out” operation. As university professors were wont to say at the time, “We might have to take them … but we don’t have to keep them.”

    I suspect that California universities will develop similar “weeding out” processes … that is, until woke academics conclude that linking grades to performance is “institutional racism” because Asian and White students are hogging the good grades. Hence, going forward, students will be graded according to their racial identities rather than their performance, fully mindful that officially race does not exist. At that point, the classical university system will have outlived its purpose.

    Regardless, the outcome of 50+ years of equity mandates and race hustling in American society seems to always produce the same result: no matter how you rack-and-stack Blacks, Amerindians, Hispanics, Whites, and Asians, Whites and Asians tend to float to the top. That should not surprise us. They spring from the same populations and cultures that have historically produced advanced civilizations. “It’s in their genes,” as the saying goes.

    P.S. I spend a lot of time helping out at my grandson’s elementary school. Third grade. My grandson’s best friend is Chinese … born in the US from parents who immigrated from China. The friend is exceptional in math, reading, writing, spelling, and punctuation. He also won the school spelling bee. I’ve graded his papers. His facility in punctuation is at a university level. I presumed a “Tiger Mom”. No, it comes naturally.

  303. Seems colleges should select from the bottom.
    Easy to see the mess the top grads have made.

  304. Anon[322] • Disclaimer says:

    This enrollment breakdown from UCB is illuminating:
    https://opa.berkeley.edu/uc-berkeley-fall-enrollment-data

    2019 Fall Enrollment:
    Black: 2.8%
    Mexican: 11.5%
    Other Hispanic: 3.6%
    White: 21.1%
    International: 12.8%
    Asian: 43.1% further broken down:
    Chinese 17.3%
    — Korean 4.7%
    — Japanese 1.5%
    — Filipino 3.4%
    — Vietnamese 3.3%
    — Other Asian 1.4%
    South Asian 11.5%

    I suspect the breakdown for “Asians” is similar at other elite colleges. Over 50% of “International” are also probably Asian, and mostly from China, which means America’s college enrollment problem can be attributed to only 2 groups: Chinese and Indians.

    There are now roughly 800,000 Americans of Japanese descent and their numbers are dwindling due to intermarriage, while there are at least 4 million each Chinese and Indians and their numbers are surging. The answer is clear, immediately end all Chinese and Indian immigration to the US, send all non-citizens packing and our higher ed diversity problem will end overnight.

  305. Everybody claims they want to deepsix the SAT because, they say, the SAT is so racistly biased toward whites and against blacks, but little has changed over the generations in that regard. What has changed over the last two decades is the emergence of Asian Supremacy. That’s a big deal even if nobody talks about it.

    I think we need to crystallize this even further. I suspect the real push to get rid of the SAT is that the Asians are not only dominating the whites, they are dominating the only whites that matter–the Jews.

    Based on the statistics on National Merit Finalists presented by Ron Unz, the Jews are having their lunch handed to them by the Asians.

    Cannot have that now can we?

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @lavoisier

    Woah. Now we are talking. This actually makes sense as Jewish control of admission offices and school board can do this.

  306. Q. Why Is the SAT Falling Out of Favor?
    A. Asian Supremacy

    Q. Why Is the SAT Falling Out of Favor?
    A. Jewish Supremacy

    Elaboration…

    Higher education is running out of white kids.

    Who was responsible for Hart-Celler getting passed?

  307. I suspect Jews continue to outscore everyone else, but cannot be mentioned for the usual reasons. The problem is (at top schools) that Jews get most of the places allocated to ‘whites’ leaving little room for gentiles from Missouri.

    Affirmative action could be offered to POOR applicants but that wouldn’t please the elite in that many whites would qualify.

  308. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Anonymous


    Maybe East Asians are racially and culturally incompatible with the rest of the human race?

    After all, although Indian and Black African immigrants do quite well in White nations, their own home nations are doing a good deal . . . worse . . . than the East Asian region.
     

    I don't think so. They are very successful in intellectual professions, sciences, engineering, finances (just check who are the richest individuals in Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia,..).

    They are not very visible in the area of entertainment (sports, music, film,..) & chattering classes plus law (journalism, public "intellectuals", media, lawyers,..)- but this only shows that contemporary Western values gravitate towards idiocracy, and east Asians won't, or can't, be a part of that circus.

    Replies: @Derek Jeter, @Truth

    They are not very visible in the area of entertainment (sports, music, film,..) & chattering classes plus law (journalism, public “intellectuals”, media, lawyers,..)- but this only shows that contemporary Western values gravitate towards idiocracy, and east Asians won’t, or can’t, be a part of that circus.

    Connie Chung disagrees with you.

    Sarah Jeong too.

  309. ko says:

    Trust me, many, many, many, many of the Asian students cheat on SAT’s, entrance and language proficiency tests. How, they pay others to test for them. It’s easy to make fake id’s for a paid test taker. Yes, they use photo’s. No problem they can even make up a face to look similar to the identity of the student paying.

    Work at school in USA? No problem. They pay for their assignments to be completed by someone back in China.

    As for in-class exams, obviously it’s harder. But, if they are allowed to use translation apps, which has become a norm, many students communicate with someone back home. It’s easy to scan a test and the paid test taker back in China or Vietnam can supply answers.

    I have encountered these things with students from every class I’ve taught. It’s all very common.

    Outside of elite mathematics, physics, and other similar fields, I’d bet all of your money that most Asians can’t think in a critical way, can’t research, can’t suppose, can’t deduce properly, have trouble to predict, are dumb as shit.

    So, Asian supremacy? I cast serious doubt on that idea.

    No way China’s education is better than America’s, and that’s not a high bar to ascend.

    • Thanks: vhrm
  310. @Derek Jeter
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    The IQ differences are all bullshit. ALL races are the same on average. Lot of white folks here are fetishizing Asians because it's a PC-way to express their hatred towards blacks. These whites do not speak for Asians. I highly doubt there are any Asians here on Unz. The Asians I've met don't go around bragging about high IQs and ethnic supremacy. They are just out there to advance their career and couldn't care less about demonstrating their high IQs. It's just whites who use the Asian IQ scores to do circuitous, sidelong attacks against blacks and Hispanics.

    Fact of the matter is: the supposed IQ differences are all BS. The whole test is a load of baloney. Just an ideological tool and construct. As far as SAT scores go, if you study all day, including doing after-school programs until 9 p.m. like many Asians are forced to do, believe it or not, but you will get a high SAT score too.

    IQ supremacy in itelf is gay af. In Asian countries, people don't look down on low IQ countrymen.
    How many girls actually are into "high IQ" guys (and I know it's not mutually exclusive with other abilities)? People boasting of "high IQ" usually are deficient in other areas of life (social skills, charisma, athleticism, etc.), and they cling to the IQ stuff because it protects their fragile egos. High IQ types are autistic weirdos with no social skills. A decent amount of smarts is good, but beyond that, it's a diminishing returns kind of thing.

    Replies: @jack daniels, @reezy, @Dino, @Duke84

    I agree there is a tendency to think one’s high IQ = superiority; that is human nature. The guy with a big penis thinks that too indicates superiority. However IQ affords an objective measure of ability that correlates well with both academic and job success.

    You are right that Asian IQ is invoked by non-Asians to justify anti-black or anti-Latino attitudes. However, we live in a society where every area in which minorities under-perform is regarded as an effect of white oppression. Surely this is “BS” and whites are justified in looking for ways to respond. That Asian superiority in IQ refutes the “white privilege” account of IQ tests explains why it is often mentioned, or at least why it is reasonable to mention it.

  311. @anon
    @Peter Akuleyev

    The Trump administration is just as dominated by Ivy Leaguers as the previous four.

    So?

    Replies: @jack daniels, @Anon

    So Trump’s “populism” is largely phony.

    Why not “a cabinet that looks like America” instead of “a cabinet that looks like Harvard”?

  312. Anon[694] • Disclaimer says:

    Per this article in National Review: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/democrats-want-to-bring-racial-preferences-back-forever/

    Caucasian Americans are now only 19 percent of UC students, down from 38 percent a quarter century ago

    Examined more closely, whites, Asians and Hispanics all have their dominant campuses. Whites dominate UCSB and UCSC, Hispanics dominate UCM, while Asians dominate the rest.

    Asian majority campuses:
    UCB: 43% Asian, 21% white, 15% Hispanic, 3% black, 13% international.
    UCLA: 35% Asian, 21% Hispanic, 6% black, 25% white, 9% international.
    UCSD: 37% Asian, 24% Hispanic, 17% white, 3% black, 16% international
    UCI: 39% Asian, 26% Hispanic, 11% white, 3% black, 19% international
    UCD: 36% Asian, 25% Hispanic, 21% white, 4% black, 13% international
    UCR: 45% Asian, 35% Hispanic, 10% white, 5% black, 3% international

    White majority campuses:
    UCSB: 27% white, 24% Asian, 24% Hispanic, 4% black, 19% international
    UCSC: 31% white, 27% Asian, 23% Hispanic, 3% black, 13% international

    Hispanic majority campuses:
    UCM: 63% Hispanic, 21% Asian, 7% white, 6% black, 1% international

    Comparatively, Stanford which uses holistic admission (but still requires SAT) is 23% Asian, 7% black, 17% Hispanic, 32% white, 9% two or more races, 11% International.

    What the UCs really want is to achieve the demographics of Stanford, but instead of going “holistic” they want to take a shortcut by dropping test scores. It’ll be interesting to see what they come up with without the SAT. But as long as they continue to accept large numbers of “international” a.k.a. China students, they will always look “too Asian”. This problem will only be addressed if they start including international students in their overall racial demographic profiles.

    Just look at University of Washington. It is 24% Asian, 42% white, 18% international which is heavily Asian with at least 50% from China alone, which means it is basically 42% Asian. Now add to that graduate students which is even more “international” a.k.a. Asian, and all you see is a sea of Asians.

  313. @GazaPlanet
    It's not that hard to game these tests. Whites have a very strong anti-intellectual anti-pedantic bias that oriental families, only a couple of generations from the rice paddy, have not yet developed. Had I been properly schooled and in better mental physical condition I would have scored close to a 1600 on the SAT. I did fine, I did fine on the GRE too. (have a sibling accepted to Harvard, another sibling neurosurgeon) But if I were an oriental with oriental parents I'm pretty sure I would have done better.

    The tests no longer benefit Jews as they are now. Even with their special test days (because the SAT usually takes place for all the gentiles on Saturday). Now that everyone knows how Charles Schumer scored well, it just doesn't benefit them the way it did in the past. Besides, with money, the Jared Kushners don't have to lower themselves to the level of rigging a test. They are far too meritocratic for the sort of society that has developed, that cares primarily about conformity to the elite agenda, and cannot tolerate the use of a test (once a virtual proxy for IQ, that was done away with years ago). In the WWII era they tried to put farm boys from Southern Indiana into Yale - one of them was my next door neighbor. Those days are long gone.

    Let's not blame the orientals doing well on the SAT for the demise of the SAT. For most people, the SAT is NOT a ticket to a higher level of status. To the contrary, for most people, for the vast majority, the SAT is a barrier to advancement. And most perniciously for the wealthy and upper middle class who after all know that spoiling their children is more important to their overall status than any test score ever.

    The SAT is not going away because orientals work hard enough to game the test that is not nearly as difficult to ace as it was in the past. The SAT is not going away because of the peculiar maturation of orientals relative to whites (the different races have different maturation rates, another reason that forced racial integration MUST BE ABOLISHED). The SAT is going away because the SAT is resolutely despised by the Kushners and everyone who sees it as an obstacle to their success, an "unfair" "biased" test that after all is only a "multiple choice test" that has nothing to do with "common sense" or "refinement and artistic sensibility" or "social awareness and emotional depth."

    The slants are just test taking automata churned out like everything else in Asia. They are fundamentally mimickers. They have no personality, no pizazz, they aren't cool like black people. And their women all want white men. So the SAT must be banned. Because of the poor hapless orientals, an entire RACE OF NERDS, are too damned good at it!

    Replies: @Anonymous, @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    Have these nerds ever last a war with the small brain british till today my friend, these nerds ever deserted the battlefield, did british race invent any fighting arts, you jealous because the nerds are now desired by every woman in the world or a slant eyed woman rejected you incel

  314. @Derek Jeter
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    The IQ differences are all bullshit. ALL races are the same on average. Lot of white folks here are fetishizing Asians because it's a PC-way to express their hatred towards blacks. These whites do not speak for Asians. I highly doubt there are any Asians here on Unz. The Asians I've met don't go around bragging about high IQs and ethnic supremacy. They are just out there to advance their career and couldn't care less about demonstrating their high IQs. It's just whites who use the Asian IQ scores to do circuitous, sidelong attacks against blacks and Hispanics.

    Fact of the matter is: the supposed IQ differences are all BS. The whole test is a load of baloney. Just an ideological tool and construct. As far as SAT scores go, if you study all day, including doing after-school programs until 9 p.m. like many Asians are forced to do, believe it or not, but you will get a high SAT score too.

    IQ supremacy in itelf is gay af. In Asian countries, people don't look down on low IQ countrymen.
    How many girls actually are into "high IQ" guys (and I know it's not mutually exclusive with other abilities)? People boasting of "high IQ" usually are deficient in other areas of life (social skills, charisma, athleticism, etc.), and they cling to the IQ stuff because it protects their fragile egos. High IQ types are autistic weirdos with no social skills. A decent amount of smarts is good, but beyond that, it's a diminishing returns kind of thing.

    Replies: @jack daniels, @reezy, @Dino, @Duke84

    Lulz whatever makes you sleep better at night Brotha

  315. @education realist
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    The GRE never totalled the scores like that, because the percentiles are too different. So 2250 is a meaningless score.

    But you're correct, no one cares about high GRE scores.

    Replies: @GazaPlanet, @Faraday's Bobcat

    That may be true. I got a 740 on the quantitative which was only about the 70th %ile for you edumatricians out there. Probably should have at least read through the sample questions in the booklet, or joined an Asian cheating ring.

    I now have a hard science PhD and many publications, but I only got into grad school by taking my first classes at night while I was working 50 hours a week.

  316. @128
    @Anonymous

    Like how Toyota makes better SUVs than the Big 3 now? We have seen how their top quartile performs for a long time already, look at Taiwan, Japan, and Korea, honestly they are not all that.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    Toyota suvs are the cream of the crop like the Landcruiser, lexuslx570, RX350 and 350H. RAVS annd a bunch of others I cant bother to look up, hondas ,mdx, pilot, CRV ,all infinitis ,all mazdas , suzukis from asia like the Jimny, nissan patrol aka infinity Q80 and Armada, give me a german or british thats better let alone any from the big three.Everyone of them has excellent resale while the germans will be 30% of what they were brand new in five years , germans, britzys and americans autos are truly disposable.

  317. Anon[341] • Disclaimer says:

    Elite universities are a direct contradiction of the concept of equality championed by the left. How can we have a truly equal society if we continue to have elite universities? What is the point of having these universities other than to create a country club of elites?

    If the left is actually sincere about creating a more equal society, the first thing they’d do is to abolish the concept of elite universities altogether. All universities should simply accept any applicant who passes a minimum qualification, i.e. a high school diploma, by lottery. Anything else is just hypocrisy. All rejigging of acceptance criteria is a giant waste of time.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Anon


    Anything else is just hypocrisy. All rejigging of acceptance criteria is a giant waste of time.
     
    It is all hypocrisy, and the constant rejigging of acceptance criteria is just to cover up their hypocrisy, as they try to protect they and their children's elite status.
    , @jack daniels
    @Anon

    Well, the idea is that society benefits if the best older minds tutor the best young minds.
    Would you want Einstein tutoring the kids who flunked physics? That would be quite an extravagance.

  318. @Faraday's Bobcat
    @International Jew


    Having a really deep high end is actually not that necessary on the GRE because anyone smart enough to score really really high will have already come to the attention of a professor who’s well enough connected to place him into a top graduate institution.
     
    2250 GRE in a year long ago when the average was 1581, and I didn't come to anyone's attention. I went to a big state school where the professors were busy teaching 200-student sections and groveling for NSF grants, not cultivating young scholars.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @education realist, @Alice

    25+ years ago, I scored a perfect 800 on each of three GRE exams, walking in cold. They were easier than the SAT had been 10 years before that. I was at MIT, and I didn’t come to anyone’s attention because my grades were poor and, frankly, I was too immature a student to do research; maybe a perfect 800 on the subject physics GRE would have helped.. What the GRE proved 20 years ago might have helped the kid from Iowa State or UNT or some other state school of no real reputation, but what it proves now is probably nothing but your english proficiency assuming you didn’t cheat. But the cheating is rampant.

    It’s long past time when profs gave a damn about bringing up new students into their field. They don’t care.

    • Replies: @Hang All Text Drivers
    @Alice

    """"25+ years ago, I scored a perfect 800 on each of three GRE exams, walking in cold. They were easier than the SAT had been 10 years before that."""

    The math GRE is easier than the math SAT because most kids don't take any math courses in college.

  319. @Steve Sailer
    @Ian Smith

    Coleman revamped the SAT a few years ago, which caused both white and Asian scores to plunge, but Asians immediately regroups and continued onward and upward to new highs.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @JerseyJeffersonian, @Alice in Wonderland, @James N. Kennett, @Happy tapir

    Steve, how was the test revamped? What were the effects?

  320. @black sea
    @Steve Sailer

    I know a retired engineering professor who used to pitch his exams at a very high level, then curve the grades substantially. His son, a friend of mine, asked him why he gave such hard exams, and he answered that every once in a while you came across a student who got an uncurved 90 or 95, and you immediately identified him as someone with PhD potential.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

    Harder tests are actually more fair. They separate those who know the material pretty well from those who know it really well.

  321. I have worked part-time for many years as a teacher, substitute teacher, and teacher’s aide. What I have seen is the morphing of aspirations by most students away from the mantra of the 1950’s and 1960’s. Namely: “You better get a college education or your income will be limited.” It does not take a genius to see how this lie has led to the graduation of legions of Boomers and Gen-Xer’s with useless, unmarketable BA degrees.
    Now, there is a shortage nationwide of plumbers, electricians, and other craft persons. Their wages are quite high. The way to go these days is a two-year path in a community college, with an AS degree in the health care field or some aspect of construction technology. Let the asians get their college training. They will still need someone to fix their toilets, wire their homes, or perform respiratory therapy on their sorry, chain-smoking asses.

    • Agree: Mark G.
  322. Anonymous[390] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    I don't know Steve - I've always been skeptical of people on the right (i.e. you and Murray) who use Asians as a justification for the elimination of Affirmative Action and as a hammer to bash NAMs. I mean - yes if we decided to let 1,000,000 Asians into the U.S. every year instead of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans/Guatamelans/etc wouldn't every university system in the U.S. look like California's. High average SAT scores, lots of STEM grads. However, seeing how this little Coronavirus thing has played out (Depression level unemployment levels, negative GDP growth) is this what "we" really want - an Asian socialized elite. Is that what you, Murray and Derbyshire are still trying to sell?

    Replies: @education realist, @Anonymous

    The Asian invasion is (for now) limited to coastal states in the NE and West Coast, and maybe the top 25 private universities. The vast majority of liberal arts colleges, flagship universities of all Mid Western, SE and Mountain states are all either close to or well over 70% white. University of Vermont and New Hampshire are 80% white.

    Even in the coastal states, regional universities outside the flagship are still white dominant, e.g. Washington State is 61% white, 15% Hispanic, 6% Asian; Western Washington is 71% white, 9% Hispanic, 6% Asian vs. UW 42% white, 24% Asian, 8% Hispanic.

    • Troll: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Washington State is in Pullman, WA near the Idaho border. U. of Washington is in the middle of Seattle.

    Replies: @vot tak

  323. Anonymous[390] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    Elite universities are a direct contradiction of the concept of equality championed by the left. How can we have a truly equal society if we continue to have elite universities? What is the point of having these universities other than to create a country club of elites?

    If the left is actually sincere about creating a more equal society, the first thing they'd do is to abolish the concept of elite universities altogether. All universities should simply accept any applicant who passes a minimum qualification, i.e. a high school diploma, by lottery. Anything else is just hypocrisy. All rejigging of acceptance criteria is a giant waste of time.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @jack daniels

    Anything else is just hypocrisy. All rejigging of acceptance criteria is a giant waste of time.

    It is all hypocrisy, and the constant rejigging of acceptance criteria is just to cover up their hypocrisy, as they try to protect they and their children’s elite status.

  324. @Hemid
    You've always missed something vital on this question, Steve. I think we all have.

    I was a 1600-scoring Jew in the early '90s and still, probably because my extracurriculars weren't ruling-class-coded enough—I was, vulgarly, a professional rock musician by the time I applied for college—I needed a world-famous friend of my father's, an alumnus who'd won three Pulitzers, to vouch for me so I'd be allowed into Cornell. At 16-fucking-hundred, imputed IQ 168, I was a special, exceptional, ethno-/nepoto-favoritism "admit."

    American Asians aren't beating us on only test scores. They're winning on other, more important, publicly unspoken criteria, too. I don't know which. Is playing violin instead of guitar really worth so much? Maybe. Maybe because that's what Jews used to do, and Asians imitate previous generations of us, and that's who decides.

    ?

    Replies: @vhrm, @Redneck farmer, @Happy tapir

    Was that on the pre 1995 sat?

  325. Could it be that Jews are having a tougher time circumventing the stricter identification requirements necessary when entering to take the test, and therefore have become in grave danger of becoming under-overrepresented?

  326. Dino says:
    @Derek Jeter
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    The IQ differences are all bullshit. ALL races are the same on average. Lot of white folks here are fetishizing Asians because it's a PC-way to express their hatred towards blacks. These whites do not speak for Asians. I highly doubt there are any Asians here on Unz. The Asians I've met don't go around bragging about high IQs and ethnic supremacy. They are just out there to advance their career and couldn't care less about demonstrating their high IQs. It's just whites who use the Asian IQ scores to do circuitous, sidelong attacks against blacks and Hispanics.

    Fact of the matter is: the supposed IQ differences are all BS. The whole test is a load of baloney. Just an ideological tool and construct. As far as SAT scores go, if you study all day, including doing after-school programs until 9 p.m. like many Asians are forced to do, believe it or not, but you will get a high SAT score too.

    IQ supremacy in itelf is gay af. In Asian countries, people don't look down on low IQ countrymen.
    How many girls actually are into "high IQ" guys (and I know it's not mutually exclusive with other abilities)? People boasting of "high IQ" usually are deficient in other areas of life (social skills, charisma, athleticism, etc.), and they cling to the IQ stuff because it protects their fragile egos. High IQ types are autistic weirdos with no social skills. A decent amount of smarts is good, but beyond that, it's a diminishing returns kind of thing.

    Replies: @jack daniels, @reezy, @Dino, @Duke84

    @derek

    I read somewhere that basically there are only few – 16, types of human personality, of course with infinite combination of traits. They exists in every strata of society. Nurturing and surrounding is big factor for your success no matter what you do and success itslef is a very relative term. Having said that there are smart people every where without without college degree and so are the dumb. We have people with character and leeches too…some are flexible, some are rigid. Everyone games the system, unless they are passionate about it. Once you are passionate about what you are doing and can make a successful living, you dont have to game, but you will still have tonprotect your turf. Life is brutal, which ever way you want to think 🙂

  327. @Justsaying
    @LostInTgeWoods

    Interesting that the disenchantment with SAT is now coming from Whites. I thought all along that that was the exclusive preserve of the purportedly genetically inferior Blacks and Latinos. Shifting the goal posts became necessary when Asians stopped reading the script and started excelling. How dare they!

    Replies: @Truth

    How dare they!

    Hah!

    It is funny, 10 years ago “Thuuuur making the SATs unecessary!!!”

    Now “We neeeed to make the SATs unecessary..!!!”

  328. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Anonymous


    Maybe East Asians are racially and culturally incompatible with the rest of the human race?

    After all, although Indian and Black African immigrants do quite well in White nations, their own home nations are doing a good deal . . . worse . . . than the East Asian region.
     

    I don't think so. They are very successful in intellectual professions, sciences, engineering, finances (just check who are the richest individuals in Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia,..).

    They are not very visible in the area of entertainment (sports, music, film,..) & chattering classes plus law (journalism, public "intellectuals", media, lawyers,..)- but this only shows that contemporary Western values gravitate towards idiocracy, and east Asians won't, or can't, be a part of that circus.

    Replies: @Derek Jeter, @Truth

    but this only shows that contemporary Western values gravitate towards idiocracy, and east Asians won’t, or can’t, be a part of that circus.

    No? but 1.3 billion of them will willingly be part of a “social credit” system which enslaves them by their cell phones?

  329. @Happy tapir
    @education realist

    This is interesting. They also “recentered” the sat mean in 1995, which had the effect of compressing the top 200 points of scores, 1400-1600. High iq societies stopped accepting the sat at that time. In the book Affirmative Action Hoax, Farron makes a very detailed argument that this action was clearly aimed at lessening the gap between whites and blacks. I highly recommend this book to Sailer and his readers. The section on the usmle, the medical licensure exam, is the most shocking. I have heard they were planning to dumb that test down again because certain students were having trouble passing. Hmm, given that 99.5% of whites pass in three tries, I wonder who they could be referring to!?

    I would be interested to know the dates on which the various actions to prevent g loading occurred.

    Replies: @Truth

    Hmm, given that 99.5% of whites pass in three tries

    Wow, that’s impressive.

    • Replies: @Happy tapir
    @Truth

    This is the national board of medical examiners test, which is a national standardized test. I take that statistic from Farrons book. Bar exam for law school is different and on state to state basis, but farron talks about that too, and it’s just as big a joke wrt minority passage.

  330. @anon
    I'd think many good students headed for engineering or the hard sciences will still take one of the tests to demonstrate their credentials. I don't know how much leaders in those disciplines can influence admissions decisions.

    But even worse for the UC future is the diversity statement roadblock for new hires that will force many top people to look elsewhere or to have to bullshit their way past the first hurdle in faculty hiring. We can only hope the coming COVID financial crisis will flush out some administrators and grievance faculty that support the DIE initiatives.

    Bill in Glendale

    Replies: @allensheep, @Simple Simone, @Anonymous

    All very true, colleges should have their own entrance exams.

    For example:

    https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2019/11/total-recall-2.html

    This was even more true in Soviet times where average Soviet school graduate received three times more instruction in math, physics, chemistry and biology than it was stipulated for the entrance to MIT.

    [T]he bubble of gas with the diameter d has occurred at the bottom of the pond. During ascent to the surface its diameter increased n-times. Find the depth of this pond in this place. Atmospheric pressure Po, coefficient of surface tension (lower case sigma) and water’s density p (rho) to be considered known. During the expansion gas temperature remains constant.

    A typical problem for a school graduate. Requirements for entrance to MIT you can see here. While tests for Physics you may see here–as expected from College Board. In fact, you are not even required to take Physics exam, you can take Biology instead. Wanna know what Math 1 stands for? Browse MIT site. Hell, while at it go to Math 2 also, and why not. The point? The point is that students who have to solve trigonometric equations like this by the 10th grade:
    an extremely easy equation based on basic identities and quadratic substitutions, will have very little difficulty after going though hell of physics-math-language entrance exams getting to serious calculus and differential equations, not to mention mechanics and, eventually, weapons’ and industrial design.

  331. 56% of college students who started at a 4 year college drop out by year 6 of their college career

    https://www.collegeatlas.org/college-dropout.html
    What’s wrong with this statistic? What is glaring is the “by year 6” factor. That’s 2 years past when they should have graduated.
    The US education model is out of kilter. SATS and other admission standards aren’t really followed, are they. The student loan is the only real admission test.
    US higher education needs a complete make over, beginning with the out lawing of student loans, and instituting sensible entry standards. Not everyone is college material. That’s a stark truth.
    There’s a lot more to the equation than mentioned here, and a lot of changes need to be made, however I’ll leave it at this.

  332. @Derek Jeter
    @TheMassageIsTheMedium

    The IQ differences are all bullshit. ALL races are the same on average. Lot of white folks here are fetishizing Asians because it's a PC-way to express their hatred towards blacks. These whites do not speak for Asians. I highly doubt there are any Asians here on Unz. The Asians I've met don't go around bragging about high IQs and ethnic supremacy. They are just out there to advance their career and couldn't care less about demonstrating their high IQs. It's just whites who use the Asian IQ scores to do circuitous, sidelong attacks against blacks and Hispanics.

    Fact of the matter is: the supposed IQ differences are all BS. The whole test is a load of baloney. Just an ideological tool and construct. As far as SAT scores go, if you study all day, including doing after-school programs until 9 p.m. like many Asians are forced to do, believe it or not, but you will get a high SAT score too.

    IQ supremacy in itelf is gay af. In Asian countries, people don't look down on low IQ countrymen.
    How many girls actually are into "high IQ" guys (and I know it's not mutually exclusive with other abilities)? People boasting of "high IQ" usually are deficient in other areas of life (social skills, charisma, athleticism, etc.), and they cling to the IQ stuff because it protects their fragile egos. High IQ types are autistic weirdos with no social skills. A decent amount of smarts is good, but beyond that, it's a diminishing returns kind of thing.

    Replies: @jack daniels, @reezy, @Dino, @Duke84

    People who say IQ tests are BS usually didn’t score very high when they took one.

  333. Gee I wonder if Asians, who are virtually non-existent in Texas (except El Paso…wierd), have this SAT advantage over whites…

    But kuddos to the author for mentioning the greatest athlete of all times–Secretariat! Wins the Belmont Stakes by 31 lengths…. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! Right…five miles from where I grew up! Tom Brady has nothing on this true GOAT! Sorry, horse…

  334. This article is liberal BS. Schools drop the SAT because blacks do so poorly on it. In the past we were told that’s because the tests are written by white people and for white people. The fact that asians do so well means the libs can’t use that argument any more.

    Why can’t we just say what everybody knows.? Blacks are very inferior mentally.

  335. @Alice
    @Faraday's Bobcat

    25+ years ago, I scored a perfect 800 on each of three GRE exams, walking in cold. They were easier than the SAT had been 10 years before that. I was at MIT, and I didn't come to anyone's attention because my grades were poor and, frankly, I was too immature a student to do research; maybe a perfect 800 on the subject physics GRE would have helped.. What the GRE proved 20 years ago might have helped the kid from Iowa State or UNT or some other state school of no real reputation, but what it proves now is probably nothing but your english proficiency assuming you didn't cheat. But the cheating is rampant.

    It's long past time when profs gave a damn about bringing up new students into their field. They don't care.

    Replies: @Hang All Text Drivers

    “”””25+ years ago, I scored a perfect 800 on each of three GRE exams, walking in cold. They were easier than the SAT had been 10 years before that.”””

    The math GRE is easier than the math SAT because most kids don’t take any math courses in college.

  336. Anonymous[341] • Disclaimer says:

    An article from the WSJ today: Is the SAT Really The Problem?

    Here are some excerpts:

    When the University of California announced it will stop using the SAT and ACT for admissions, it sent tremors through the world of higher education. If only because of its sheer size—the UC system covers 285,000 students over several campuses—others are bound to follow.

    Undeniably wealth is a big advantage. But if the idea is to address what’s keeping children from a college degree, instead of papering over the achievement gap, it might be better to address the elephant in the room: family.

    A graph Who Gets Through College – Likelihood of graduating from a selective college within 10 years, by living arrangement as a high school sophomore shows the following breakdown:
    Married birth parents: 20%
    Widowed mom or dad: 12%
    Divorced mother: 11%
    Separated/divorced dad: 10%
    Adoptive parents: 10%
    Birth & step parent: 8%
    Foster parents: 7%
    Separated mother: 6%
    Cohabiting birth parents: 6%
    Never married mother: 6%
    Grandparents: 3%

    It’s taboo to raise it, but for all the invocations of “science” and “data-driven decisions,” seldom is any recognition given to what the data tell us about the most privileged kids of all: those living with their biological parents under the same roof.

    “Family structure is about as important as family income in predicting who graduates from college today,” says W. Bradford Wilcox, a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, professor of sociology at the University of Virginia and a senior fellow at the Institute for Family Studies. “In the absence of SAT scores, which can pinpoint kids from difficult family backgrounds with great academic potential, family stability is likely to loom even larger in determining who makes it past the college finish line in California.”

    So basically dropping the SAT might just make it worse for smart kids from disadvantaged families in favor of not so smart from intact families who do their homework diligently.

    The data are pretty conclusive. The more intact the family, the better the education outcomes. In a new IFS study released Monday, research psychologist Nicholas Zill reports that when it comes to graduation from top colleges, “students from intact families are twice as likely to do so as those from all other family types combined.”

    I once read that 90% of kids at Cornell came from families with married biological parents. The step parent scenario in elite colleges is probably rich dad on to 2nd, 3rd or 4th wife, but rich enough to buy his kid a spot.

    By dropping SATs, UC hopes to produce a student body that includes higher percentages of blacks and Latinos. This requires discrediting the SATs as an indicator of college performance (a point contested by the UC Academic Senate). It also requires finding a way to make room for the students it wants by reducing the number of Asian-Americans (13.6% of California’s population but 29.5% of UC undergraduates). This is why the Asian American Coalition for Education warned the regents that, without the SAT, Asian-American applicants will “become easy victims of various radical acts of racial balancing.”

    Wenyuan Wu, who addressed the regents on the coalition’s behalf, tells me she cringes whenever the anti-SAT crowd invokes the “racial/socioeconomic biases argument.” She asks: “What about those Chinatown kids whose parents toil in ethnic enclaves with low incomes and tremendous language barriers?” Which raises a further indelicate question: Is it a coincidence that Asian-Americans, who disproportionately earn entry into UC, disproportionately come from intact families?

    Right. Too many Asian grinds. Just like there were once too many Jewish greasy grinds, now that the Jews are in charge, Asians are the new barbarians at the gate.

    If it’s unjust that rich kids get test prep from their parents, why doesn’t the university simply come up with a good prep course and provide it free to anyone who wants it? If the rejoinder is that the wealthy kids enjoy the further advantage of better schools, why do so many SAT opponents also reject measures that might help level the playing field—vouchers and charter schools come to mind—by giving underserved kids the opportunity of going to a good school too?

    The modern American university isn’t afraid to weigh in when it comes to issues outside its direct purview. Two days before UC announced its decision on the SAT, it boasted of having completely divested from fossil fuels. But when it comes to addressing a major factor keeping students out of its system and thus widening the achievement gap—crickets.

    Zing!

    As Charles Murray noted in “Coming Apart” (2012), the data showing the advantage to children of living with their biological parents across a range of outcomes are broadly accepted by social scientists. But those data are “resolutely” ignored by “network news programs, editorial writers for the major newspapers, and politicians of both major political parties.” Not to mention the UC regents.

    “Given the science,” Mr. Wilcox says, “why can’t universities bring themselves to tell the truth that if you’d like your kids to get a college degree—especially from a selective college—you’d do well to get and stay married?”

    That’s the gist of it.

  337. LOL – simple answer: Lori Loughlin

  338. @RAZ
    @Alice

    That is daunting. Wonder how many middle class kids admittable to top UC's go to much less expensive but high rated out of state Honors programs like ASU Barrett (their website says more Merit scholars than MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, etc.)?

    When my son was looking at colleges he received an unsolicited offer (it may have been full ride) from our in state honors program. Wasn't enough to convince him. Went to a NE liberal arts school. But he was one of the lucky ones with a grandparent created college fund.

    Replies: @AnonAnon

    Wonder how many middle class kids admittable to top UC’s go to much less expensive but high rated out of state Honors programs like ASU Barrett (their website says more Merit scholars than MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, etc.)?

    ASU (and U of Az) is very aggressive about recruiting California kids. They offer a number of automatic merit scholarships based on ACT/SAT scores and/or GPA. My son didn’t get the very top tier but I believe he was offered something in the realm of $16K per year, bringing the cost down to just above that of a Cal State, which at the time was about $10K less than a UC. However, I doubt any California resident child that worked their tail off to get into UCLA or Berkeley (or even UCSD or UCSB) is turning their back on those schools, currently ranked #20 and #22. You need to walk on water these days – near 5.0 GPA, 1550+ SAT, four year varsity athlete, multiple extra curriculums to get into those schools (standards are lower for out of state kids). Perhaps once you are out of the top four UCs, the trade off becomes more difficult. (I am only taking about kids who pay resident rates. $69K for a UC is another ball of wax. Moreover, most flagship state schools are running their residents at least $30K a year. The only “cheap” way to go to a highly regarded flagship school is the CC transfer route.) I’m still not sold on the honors college concept. Maybe it’s because we were looking at engineering programs and it’s not a factor for that major. At the end of the day, your linkedin profile still says ASU, which is ranked #117. There is also the oppressive hot weather to deal with. My husband has a co-worker whose son is going to ASU who wanted to transfer back to college in Southern California because of the heat. The temp was 114 on his freshmen move in day. Moreover, ASU has 58,000+ students. It’s a very large college and it feels like it. The UCs certainly aren’t small but they are not nearly the behemoth ASU is. The top UCs also have a much higher overall caliber student body. The girls are pretty stunning at ASU, though, I hear.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @AnonAnon

    Most of the UC schools are situated on choice real estate: e.g., UCLA is across Sunset Blvd. from the Bel-Air Country Club. The home sites overlooking the Bel-Air CC, beloved by Russian oligarchs, are possibly the most expensive in the US.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @vot tak

  339. @Anonymous
    @GazaPlanet

    You sound bitter and delusion.

    Someone is envious of his siblings and orientals.

    Keep telling yourself you could have pulled a 1600 on the SAT. You can’t even write a couple of paragraphs without repeatedly contradictIng yourself.

    Replies: @GazaPlanet, @GazaPlanet

    delete

  340. @Lot
    NE Asian-American competition is not a big deal for whites. First, there aren’t enough of them to be a factor in most selective colleges. Only in maybe the 10% most asian areas (coastal CA and NYC) and 2% most selective schools are they really taking up a lot of slots. And even then, the Asian share is often held back by race norming their scores downward.

    The foreign asians when they become too numerous have a mildly negative impact on campus life. Their English isn’t very good so you have the non-STEM intro level classes dumbed down to accommodate them for example. They also fill up shared dorm fridges with stinky dishes from home.

    Heavily offsetting this however is the fact they pay full tuition so subsidize everyone else.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @ATBOTL

    Don’t worry about the Asians taking over your country, it’s no big deal, goy.

    Anyone else notice that Lot and the other neocons here are always giving bad faith advice to white people?

  341. @lavoisier

    Everybody claims they want to deepsix the SAT because, they say, the SAT is so racistly biased toward whites and against blacks, but little has changed over the generations in that regard. What has changed over the last two decades is the emergence of Asian Supremacy. That’s a big deal even if nobody talks about it.
     
    I think we need to crystallize this even further. I suspect the real push to get rid of the SAT is that the Asians are not only dominating the whites, they are dominating the only whites that matter--the Jews.

    Based on the statistics on National Merit Finalists presented by Ron Unz, the Jews are having their lunch handed to them by the Asians.

    Cannot have that now can we?

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    Woah. Now we are talking. This actually makes sense as Jewish control of admission offices and school board can do this.

  342. @Anonymous
    @GazaPlanet

    You sound bitter and delusion.

    Someone is envious of his siblings and orientals.

    Keep telling yourself you could have pulled a 1600 on the SAT. You can’t even write a couple of paragraphs without repeatedly contradictIng yourself.

    Replies: @GazaPlanet, @GazaPlanet

    You know I was discussing with some mainland Chinese about 20 years ago, my sister’s acceptance to Harvard. They said the whole family would work together to make sure a child could take such an opportunity. In fact my sister opted for Georgetown, over Princeton and Yale, which seems stupid and contrarian, but that maybe that’s how we are sometimes. I suppose I am rather full of bitterness, but not for my siblings, that would be ridiculous. Nor am I bitter at orientals, they remain objects of pity, as they were in 1920. Besides the orientals must be immune to prodding. I am not bitter at Orientals but envious. Just kidding. No, I am bitter at myself alone. As for delusion. It’s certainly possible I’m underestimating the difficulty of raising my score a few points, but seeing as I did raise my score the next year on the other section, no I don’t think so. I am convinced those tests (at least when I took them) can be gamed, and had I had a better education over the years, it stands to reason my scores would have been higher. I don’t think I could have scored perfectly though, barring extraordinary luck.

  343. Try searching Chinese nationals cheating on SAT, it’s unreal, on a near annual basis there are stories of tests given here having been previously released in China. I first learned of this last June after my son took the test, within a few hours of the test, Chinese National brought the issue to social media. Of course, the corrupt College Board said don’t worry, it was a mistake, we can catch cheaters, etc., lies. Then, of course, the Varsity Blues scandal broke, on the same day another, less known scandal broke where Chinese Nationals, 5 of them UCLA students were caught in fraud ring where they took English proficiency tests for Chinese applicants. On and on it goes, and viola Chinese mysteriously do better on the exam – you don’t say?! The colleges are in cahoots because they get the international tuition, it’s a huge scam that is destroying our colleges.

  344. @128
    @Steve Sailer

    Sequia? Lexus only seems to sell well in US. Elsewhere Mercedes and BMW SUVs seem to be prominent. Curiously Japanese and Korean automakers never seem to have made much headway in Europe.

    Replies: @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    Your a moron like the rest of the redneck male that buys only american trucks, europeans also will never buy buy asian cars ,If it was’nt for asians and minorities and women, japanese cars in US would also have gone the same route as in europe you people buy crap even if it is disposable for this reason german and american cars are never gonna improve their reliability, asians save more of our money buying reliable japanese cars as opposed to you guys that throw your money away leasing disposable european cars that has lost 70% of its purchase price in five years

  345. Anonymous[341] • Disclaimer says:

    I guess our elite colleges are in a tough spot. Either they get swamped by Chindians or they have to admit substantially more under qualified blacks/Hispanics, either way their white demographic will continue to dwindle (except for Jews) and as whites retreat, they become less and less prestigious.

    I say let them burn. Our current sorry state of affairs was all brought on by elite educated globohomo. AFAIC, if all our elite universities disappear tomorrow, America will actually be much better off. In fact, America cannot right itself until these elite universities all die. Let them be consumed by the Asians, blacks, Hispanics, Jews. The sooner they die the sooner America can come back.

  346. @Neoconned
    @Anon

    Isn't rent in the Bay Area like ~3-4k$$ per month?

    I've always wondered how the h1bs afford that sh-t.....do they stack them in bunk beds 10 to a small room like in boot camp or something? That would drop rent to like 300 to 400 a month I suppose....

    Replies: @nebulafox, @dvorak

    Isn’t rent in the Bay Area like ~3-4k$$ per month?

    There are plenty of unfashionable spots in/near Silicon Valley where an apartment is less than 3-4k per month.

  347. Anonymous[341] • Disclaimer says:
    @Stephen Dodge
    @Wilkey

    I am in a really good mood tonight (big successes last week in real world efforts) so take what I am gonna say with a grain of salt.

    WE ALL KNOW how Canadians like to amuse themselves with what they think is a subtle form of humor, we all know Mexicans don't expect their kids to do a damn thing about the fact that most of their fellow Mexicans are, unfortunately, helots who have to work extremely difficult jobs just to get by, and we all know that people from Jamaica are pretty much what they are.

    Look, it does not matter, life in North America - Canada, America, Mexico, and off the coast, places like Jamaica, is pretty sweet compared to life in many other parts of the world. ALMOST NOBODY UNDERSTANDS that Mexicans don't care AT ALL about their academic failures and their failures to keep their grandmas from living and dying in poverty, they all (well, most of them, anyway) think they are THE BEST OF THE BEST because they live their lives as if they were the stars of some telenovela, even the fat Mexican women consider themselves precious (they are right) and the hardworking helots love themselves, because they pay for their kid's food, even if they let grandma almost starve to death because they are simply not concerned about working hard to make life better for everyone, the way people in other countries do. THEY ALL THINK THEY ARE HEROES. They aren't, but they think they are.

    Now think of life in some dorm in some college that is the best college in its province of China, I GUARANTEE YOU that most people there do not think all that much of themselves, and they work hard,

    now think of how Jamaicans think of themselves. I think there is no lack of self-esteem there.

    Canadians like to pride themselves on their dry humor, but there are not a lot of them, and they have access to an awful lot of beautiful land.

    Think about it - Mexicans love themselves whether or not they get good test scores and whether or not they have any idea about how to keep their cities sanitary, Canadians straight up love themselves as the best people on the planet, and Jamaicans have no lack of self-esteem.

    I leave the question of what the citizens of the United States think about "test scores" as an exercise for the reader.

    Replies: @TheMassageIsTheMedium, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Anonymous

    Good question. The best thing to do to be happy is to stay away from the news, esp. Unz Review, nothing but piss and vinegar.

  348. @GazaPlanet
    I'd like you all to contemplate this:

    What if the coeducational public funded secondary school was established primarily to give Freemasons and their sons (or local Communist Party leaders) more access to the local young women? What if the real purpose of the whole modern secondary education system in the USA and to a lesser extent in other countries was to make young women available for easy seduction and revolutionary "sexual liberation." I really think it's quite possible that that is the reason.

    Because the reason for the public secondary education system in the US SURE AS HELL isn't about helping the intelligent boys achieve success in life through education.

    John Von Neumann said the schools needed better teachers. Well that would mean rewarding intelligent young men, nobodies, with respectable wages. Putting them in close proximity to young women! No way in hell American liberals would put up with that.

    Replies: @vot tak

    Yes, good point, shlomo, “loose” females are the bane of homosexual predation. If your typical male has a choice between girls and boys to choose from, most will naturally choose to be with girls. So they must have that choice taken away from them, the girl choice needs to be removed, so they will be more susceptible to homosexual predation. ;-D

    • Replies: @GazaPlanet
    @vot tak

    Well, that's what the Freemasons (or those with that general outlook) in charge of education like to say about all-male institutions (other than their own!), in particularly all-male religious institutions. Militaries need the females or the homosexuals will take over the front lines, that seems to be the level of logic you're using. But I want you to seriously contemplate what I'm saying, rather than just reflexively react against my anti-feminism with insinuations of homosexuality. There's a reason our ancestors believed in segregating education. Segregating by sex, segregating by race. Very good reasons. In particular, girls are incredibly distracting for a teenage boy in class. Boys and girls reach maturity at different ages.

    Let me just suggest to you that much of America's education problems stem from the manifest reality, that secondary education is primarily about social and sex competition in an artificial environment, rather than about learning. Movies about high school aren't about learning. Now and then there's a movie where the bright boy scores high on the test and achieves his goal, Almost all high school movies are in some way about sex. And yes, movies are entertainment, not serious. But what is the emphasis in high school education? What is the real purpose, don't tell me it's about learning. The SAT isn't about sex, and that's a problem for it in the current climate. (look at the rainbow flags everywhere, what is that but a form of collective insanity?) Also it's kind of "racist."

    I mean when Attorney General William Barr's father gave Jeffrey Epstein a job as a teacher at a very prestigious school, was that about education? What was the REAL MOTIVATION. What is the real function of these schools? And how has that function changed over the years?

    I'm generally against all-male all-female boarding schools and I think there is definitely greater potential for homosexual predation in all male institutions. I don't think institutions were all male in the past as a front for homosexuality. I think it was a matter of COMMON SENSE, like having men in combat or on a construction site, but this common sense is deeply offensive to subversive radicals. The US abandoned sex and race segregation because it places radical ideology far above education in importance. Far above the importance of suitable preparation for family life.

    One thing those Chinese do, is worry about what their ancestors think. And how they are going to honor their ancestors, carry on their family line. The West has been under the influence of subversives who have prevailed upon the general population that they shouldn't worry about such things.

    Replies: @vot tak

  349. “but whites are increasingly seeing the SAT as a game they are destined to lose at to Asians.”

    And the evidence for this is…what?

  350. @Anon
    Elite universities are a direct contradiction of the concept of equality championed by the left. How can we have a truly equal society if we continue to have elite universities? What is the point of having these universities other than to create a country club of elites?

    If the left is actually sincere about creating a more equal society, the first thing they'd do is to abolish the concept of elite universities altogether. All universities should simply accept any applicant who passes a minimum qualification, i.e. a high school diploma, by lottery. Anything else is just hypocrisy. All rejigging of acceptance criteria is a giant waste of time.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @jack daniels

    Well, the idea is that society benefits if the best older minds tutor the best young minds.
    Would you want Einstein tutoring the kids who flunked physics? That would be quite an extravagance.

  351. Why can’t we just Have A TRUE MERITOCRACY and let the Chips fall as they may? If 100% of the School winds up Asian so be it, If 100% are Black or White or Spanish so be it, It will almost never be 100% of any group, but whatever the mixture at a School or Job or Sport as long as everyone was allowed a fair shot to try to earn the spot and the best are the ones that get the spots Then NOBODY Should Complain as it is based on fair criteria and competition.

    • Replies: @GazaPlanet
    @USA 1943

    Because as A. Abbot Lowell said about Jews (and Orientals in general) "They cheat."

    We cannot have a meritocracy with Orientals gaming the system. It's impossible. Of course they are pulling the ladder up behind them as they have achieved dominance. And no, it doesn't have to do with high Oriental test scores. As Buchanan pointed out many years ago, white gentiles are disproportionately excluded from elite institutions.

    That being said, I don't believe phasing out the SAT has anything to do with Oriental success on the test. The test has been changing for many years now. It was once a proxy for IQ. Left-wing ideology prevailing in the universities and sorting by IQ do not mix. Anymore than segregating rest rooms by sex and liberal enlightenment values mix.

  352. @AnonAnon
    @RAZ


    Wonder how many middle class kids admittable to top UC’s go to much less expensive but high rated out of state Honors programs like ASU Barrett (their website says more Merit scholars than MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, etc.)?
     
    ASU (and U of Az) is very aggressive about recruiting California kids. They offer a number of automatic merit scholarships based on ACT/SAT scores and/or GPA. My son didn’t get the very top tier but I believe he was offered something in the realm of $16K per year, bringing the cost down to just above that of a Cal State, which at the time was about $10K less than a UC. However, I doubt any California resident child that worked their tail off to get into UCLA or Berkeley (or even UCSD or UCSB) is turning their back on those schools, currently ranked #20 and #22. You need to walk on water these days - near 5.0 GPA, 1550+ SAT, four year varsity athlete, multiple extra curriculums to get into those schools (standards are lower for out of state kids). Perhaps once you are out of the top four UCs, the trade off becomes more difficult. (I am only taking about kids who pay resident rates. $69K for a UC is another ball of wax. Moreover, most flagship state schools are running their residents at least $30K a year. The only “cheap” way to go to a highly regarded flagship school is the CC transfer route.) I’m still not sold on the honors college concept. Maybe it’s because we were looking at engineering programs and it’s not a factor for that major. At the end of the day, your linkedin profile still says ASU, which is ranked #117. There is also the oppressive hot weather to deal with. My husband has a co-worker whose son is going to ASU who wanted to transfer back to college in Southern California because of the heat. The temp was 114 on his freshmen move in day. Moreover, ASU has 58,000+ students. It’s a very large college and it feels like it. The UCs certainly aren’t small but they are not nearly the behemoth ASU is. The top UCs also have a much higher overall caliber student body. The girls are pretty stunning at ASU, though, I hear.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Most of the UC schools are situated on choice real estate: e.g., UCLA is across Sunset Blvd. from the Bel-Air Country Club. The home sites overlooking the Bel-Air CC, beloved by Russian oligarchs, are possibly the most expensive in the US.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Steve Sailer

    Same with UC Berkeley. Gorgeous.

    UC Davis, however, is right in the middle of a heat/dust storm. People still spend tens of thousands to go there.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @vot tak
    @Steve Sailer

    "Most of the UC schools are situated on choice real estate: e.g., UCLA is across Sunset Blvd. from the Bel-Air Country Club."

    Happy 100th birthday UCLA. Here’s how it all started

    https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/lore-how-ucla-came-into-being-100-years-ago

    "Interest from several cities was investigated and the final candidates for a new campus narrowed to locations in Burbank and Pasadena, Fullerton in Orange County, and on the Palos Verdes Peninsula near the Port of Los Angeles. Dickson, a growing voice among the regents and in Los Angeles civic circles, favored a fifth site, on a grassy slope west of the small enclave of Beverly Hills, 13 miles from downtown Los Angeles and well beyond the city limits.

    The land, originally within the 4,400-acre Rancho San Jose de Buenos Ayres granted to Don Maximo Alanis, a Spanish soldier and settler of the Los Angles pueblo, had gorgeous views of the Pacific Ocean and the Santa Monica Mountains and reminded Dickson of Berkeley’s setting. Significantly, the Letts tract, named for a previous land owner, lay in the direction of Los Angeles’ inevitable westward expansion across the coastal plain.

    Real estate developers Harold and Edwin Janss owned the land and they had dreams for a new community, Westwood, to grow adjacent to the university. They foresaw homes for tens of thousands of families, movie studios, and a shopping village that would rise into “one of the most unusual business districts in the United States.”

    Furious politicking carried on behind the scenes, until on May 21, 1925, the Board of Regents formally voted in favor of the Letts tract, also called the “Beverly site.”

    “The site was chosen generally because it was believed be in the trend of population growth in Los Angeles, and to have available excellent transportation facilities,” the regents said. “The splendid topography and climate of the site chosen were also compelling arguments in its favor.”

    Not everyone was impressed. “The campus is so far out in the country that it’s obvious only farmers will ever be the students’ neighbors,” a newspaper observed at the time.

    A condition imposed by the regents put up a daunting obstacle. State money raised through bond issues would help pay for construction, but the regents required that acquiring the land not cost the University of California anything. That was a problem since the Janss brothers wanted to sell 300 acres for $2,000 each, and another 75 acres for $7,500 each. The land was worth much more on the open market, they argued.

    A remarkable election campaign within the cities of Los Angeles, Beverly Hills, Santa Monica and Venice needed to convince voters to approve bond measures to cover the cost of the land.

    High school and college students campaigned on radio stations and showed a 10-minute film in movie theaters to persuade voters. The film, “College Days,” depicted tearful farewells at train stations as sons and daughters went away to college. “The clear message,” said the history book “UCLA: The First Century,” was that “such sad partings would be unneccessary if an adequate local institution were available.”

    A giant bonfire and rally was held in Westwood the night before the election, and more than 2,000 students were stationed in pairs near polling places to make sure the message was heard. On May 5, 1925, Proposition 2 passed in Los Angeles by a nearly 3-to-1 yes vote.

    Voters in the other cities also agreed to tax themselves. The University of California at Los Angeles, the new formal name, was now destined to rise at the center of a new Los Angeles region. (The name University of Beverly was also considered.)

    In February 1926, a 75-ton granite boulder was trucked over 10 days from a quarry in Perris Valley and placed on the wild hillside west of Beverly Hills. Founders’ Rock was the idea of Edward Dickson, and the ceremony celebrating its placement marked the symbolic start of construction on the new campus."

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  353. @vot tak
    @GazaPlanet

    Yes, good point, shlomo, "loose" females are the bane of homosexual predation. If your typical male has a choice between girls and boys to choose from, most will naturally choose to be with girls. So they must have that choice taken away from them, the girl choice needs to be removed, so they will be more susceptible to homosexual predation. ;-D

    Replies: @GazaPlanet

    Well, that’s what the Freemasons (or those with that general outlook) in charge of education like to say about all-male institutions (other than their own!), in particularly all-male religious institutions. Militaries need the females or the homosexuals will take over the front lines, that seems to be the level of logic you’re using. But I want you to seriously contemplate what I’m saying, rather than just reflexively react against my anti-feminism with insinuations of homosexuality. There’s a reason our ancestors believed in segregating education. Segregating by sex, segregating by race. Very good reasons. In particular, girls are incredibly distracting for a teenage boy in class. Boys and girls reach maturity at different ages.

    Let me just suggest to you that much of America’s education problems stem from the manifest reality, that secondary education is primarily about social and sex competition in an artificial environment, rather than about learning. Movies about high school aren’t about learning. Now and then there’s a movie where the bright boy scores high on the test and achieves his goal, Almost all high school movies are in some way about sex. And yes, movies are entertainment, not serious. But what is the emphasis in high school education? What is the real purpose, don’t tell me it’s about learning. The SAT isn’t about sex, and that’s a problem for it in the current climate. (look at the rainbow flags everywhere, what is that but a form of collective insanity?) Also it’s kind of “racist.”

    I mean when Attorney General William Barr’s father gave Jeffrey Epstein a job as a teacher at a very prestigious school, was that about education? What was the REAL MOTIVATION. What is the real function of these schools? And how has that function changed over the years?

    I’m generally against all-male all-female boarding schools and I think there is definitely greater potential for homosexual predation in all male institutions. I don’t think institutions were all male in the past as a front for homosexuality. I think it was a matter of COMMON SENSE, like having men in combat or on a construction site, but this common sense is deeply offensive to subversive radicals. The US abandoned sex and race segregation because it places radical ideology far above education in importance. Far above the importance of suitable preparation for family life.

    One thing those Chinese do, is worry about what their ancestors think. And how they are going to honor their ancestors, carry on their family line. The West has been under the influence of subversives who have prevailed upon the general population that they shouldn’t worry about such things.

    • Replies: @vot tak
    @GazaPlanet

    And homosexual males wonder why they encounter so much pushback when they mount their soap boxes. :-D

    Replies: @GazaPlanet

  354. @Steve Sailer
    @AnonAnon

    Most of the UC schools are situated on choice real estate: e.g., UCLA is across Sunset Blvd. from the Bel-Air Country Club. The home sites overlooking the Bel-Air CC, beloved by Russian oligarchs, are possibly the most expensive in the US.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @vot tak

    Same with UC Berkeley. Gorgeous.

    UC Davis, however, is right in the middle of a heat/dust storm. People still spend tens of thousands to go there.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @stillCARealist

    Davis, CA still has the nicest weather in the agricultural Central Valley: the breeze often blows off the cool San Francisco Bay to cool down Davis.

    UC should have bought up a lot of land in Napa or Sonoma 60 years ago for another campus.

    Cal State San Luis Obispo occupies the prime spot with a UC near the Central Coast.

    A sleeper is the old lunatic asylum that is now Cal State Channel Islands in Camarillo in Ventura County. It would be a reasonable site to promote to UC status.

  355. A presidential historian once wrote that Jimmy Carter was probably the smartest president “in the college-board sense.” I thought that phrase was a useful epigram, and adopted it to use on appropriate occasions, namely when a smart person has, as Dirty Harry would say, his limitations. I guess I must soon consign this epigram to my epigram dustbin. Just recently, this happened with “that’s like missing a tuba in a telephone booth” when a young person asked me “what is a telephone booth?”

    • Replies: @Hang All Text Drivers
    @SafeNow

    """"A presidential historian once wrote that Jimmy Carter was probably the smartest president “in the college-board sense.” I thought that phrase was a useful epigram, and adopted it to use on appropriate occasions, namely when a smart person has, as Dirty Harry would say, his limitations."""


    The media has brainwashed you into thinking carter was a bad president. Carter didn't do much because he didn't want to. He believed in states rights (as did the founding fathers). He had huge majorities in both houses of congress and could have reshaped the country but chose not to.

  356. @USA 1943
    Why can't we just Have A TRUE MERITOCRACY and let the Chips fall as they may? If 100% of the School winds up Asian so be it, If 100% are Black or White or Spanish so be it, It will almost never be 100% of any group, but whatever the mixture at a School or Job or Sport as long as everyone was allowed a fair shot to try to earn the spot and the best are the ones that get the spots Then NOBODY Should Complain as it is based on fair criteria and competition.

    Replies: @GazaPlanet

    Because as A. Abbot Lowell said about Jews (and Orientals in general) “They cheat.”

    We cannot have a meritocracy with Orientals gaming the system. It’s impossible. Of course they are pulling the ladder up behind them as they have achieved dominance. And no, it doesn’t have to do with high Oriental test scores. As Buchanan pointed out many years ago, white gentiles are disproportionately excluded from elite institutions.

    That being said, I don’t believe phasing out the SAT has anything to do with Oriental success on the test. The test has been changing for many years now. It was once a proxy for IQ. Left-wing ideology prevailing in the universities and sorting by IQ do not mix. Anymore than segregating rest rooms by sex and liberal enlightenment values mix.

  357. @stillCARealist
    @Steve Sailer

    Same with UC Berkeley. Gorgeous.

    UC Davis, however, is right in the middle of a heat/dust storm. People still spend tens of thousands to go there.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Davis, CA still has the nicest weather in the agricultural Central Valley: the breeze often blows off the cool San Francisco Bay to cool down Davis.

    UC should have bought up a lot of land in Napa or Sonoma 60 years ago for another campus.

    Cal State San Luis Obispo occupies the prime spot with a UC near the Central Coast.

    A sleeper is the old lunatic asylum that is now Cal State Channel Islands in Camarillo in Ventura County. It would be a reasonable site to promote to UC status.

  358. Anonymous[916] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    I'd think many good students headed for engineering or the hard sciences will still take one of the tests to demonstrate their credentials. I don't know how much leaders in those disciplines can influence admissions decisions.

    But even worse for the UC future is the diversity statement roadblock for new hires that will force many top people to look elsewhere or to have to bullshit their way past the first hurdle in faculty hiring. We can only hope the coming COVID financial crisis will flush out some administrators and grievance faculty that support the DIE initiatives.

    Bill in Glendale

    Replies: @allensheep, @Simple Simone, @Anonymous

    NO the SAT will fall out of use-favor because IT hurts JEWISH IQ…supremacy…myth…

  359. @Anonymous
    @Anonymous

    The Asian invasion is (for now) limited to coastal states in the NE and West Coast, and maybe the top 25 private universities. The vast majority of liberal arts colleges, flagship universities of all Mid Western, SE and Mountain states are all either close to or well over 70% white. University of Vermont and New Hampshire are 80% white.

    Even in the coastal states, regional universities outside the flagship are still white dominant, e.g. Washington State is 61% white, 15% Hispanic, 6% Asian; Western Washington is 71% white, 9% Hispanic, 6% Asian vs. UW 42% white, 24% Asian, 8% Hispanic.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Washington State is in Pullman, WA near the Idaho border. U. of Washington is in the middle of Seattle.

    • Replies: @vot tak
    @Steve Sailer

    "Washington State is in Pullman, WA near the Idaho border. U. of Washington is in the middle of Seattle."

    So?

    You're talking about less than a days drive. Like heading up tothe bay area from la in ca.

    Regardless, washington state should be considered as part of the midwest. Same generally rightwing intollerant world view among the monkeys there. I found very little difference between the denizens of wash and idaho in most matters. Very right wing. Very intollerant of "auslanders" and their views. In fact, washington staters came across as more extreme.

    For example a woman I talked with back in the early 1990s had moved to seattle. She told me about a seattle pasttime called keying cars. If they saw a car with ca license plates, they would scratch it along the side with a key as they walked by. Unoccupied cars, of course, being the bog standard chickenshit pindo scum of midwest type persuasion.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Poco

  360. @Truth
    @Happy tapir


    Hmm, given that 99.5% of whites pass in three tries
     
    Wow, that's impressive.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it2EDnPRrcI

    Replies: @Happy tapir

    This is the national board of medical examiners test, which is a national standardized test. I take that statistic from Farrons book. Bar exam for law school is different and on state to state basis, but farron talks about that too, and it’s just as big a joke wrt minority passage.

  361. haha says:
    @Bill P
    It's perfectly rational to dump the SAT when it gives orientals an advantage. That is exactly what Chinese would do if any non-Chinese group scored higher than Han Chinese in China.

    Could we come up with a test that gave white boys an advantage? You bet we could, especially if we devoted entire departments in universities to crapping on orientals and discouraging them from even trying in the first place.

    If there's any industry that deserves what this corona panic is doing to us, it's higher ed.

    Replies: @education realist, @haha, @Anon

    I was fascinated reading your post, simply fascinated.
    “Could we come up with a test that gave white boys an advantage? You bet we could, especially if we devoted entire departments in universities to crapping on orientals and discouraging them from even trying in the first place.”
    Crapping all over the place and guzzling six packs in between doing drugs is definitely going to elevate the whites. But hey, then what is wrong about blacks demanding tests that don’t discriminate against their low scholastic abilities?

  362. @syonredux

    According to the College Board, which administers the SAT, 55 percent of Asian-American test takers and 45 percent of white test takers scored a 1200 or higher on the SAT in 2019. For Hispanic and black students, those numbers were 12 percent and 9 percent.
     
    And that's all you need to know.....

    Critics also say the tests are too easily gamed by students who can pay thousands of dollars for private coaching and test prep.
     
    Kinda seems to me that that would also be a factor in terms of using GPA as the metric....

    Carol Christ, the chancellor of the University of California, Berkeley, has long called for a move away from standardized testing for admissions. She cited the recent college admissions bribery scandal as a case in point, calling the episode “grotesque.”

     

    They also faked athletic achievements....Maybe we should stop using that as a factor in admissions, particularly where girls are concerned....

    Proponents of a change say it is fairer to judge students by other measures, such as teacher recommendations.

     

    That seems a tad subjective....of course, that's probably the point. Objective metrics tend to be racially biased...

    Replies: @MarkinLA, @Old Palo Altan

    “Thousands of dollars for private coaching and test prep”?

    In my day we didn’t even know the day the test would be administered.

    “SAT today, boys” and that was that.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Old Palo Altan

    In my day we didn’t even know the day the test would be administered.

    Wasn't it a challenge taking the SAT by writing with chalk on a slate?

  363. @GazaPlanet
    @vot tak

    Well, that's what the Freemasons (or those with that general outlook) in charge of education like to say about all-male institutions (other than their own!), in particularly all-male religious institutions. Militaries need the females or the homosexuals will take over the front lines, that seems to be the level of logic you're using. But I want you to seriously contemplate what I'm saying, rather than just reflexively react against my anti-feminism with insinuations of homosexuality. There's a reason our ancestors believed in segregating education. Segregating by sex, segregating by race. Very good reasons. In particular, girls are incredibly distracting for a teenage boy in class. Boys and girls reach maturity at different ages.

    Let me just suggest to you that much of America's education problems stem from the manifest reality, that secondary education is primarily about social and sex competition in an artificial environment, rather than about learning. Movies about high school aren't about learning. Now and then there's a movie where the bright boy scores high on the test and achieves his goal, Almost all high school movies are in some way about sex. And yes, movies are entertainment, not serious. But what is the emphasis in high school education? What is the real purpose, don't tell me it's about learning. The SAT isn't about sex, and that's a problem for it in the current climate. (look at the rainbow flags everywhere, what is that but a form of collective insanity?) Also it's kind of "racist."

    I mean when Attorney General William Barr's father gave Jeffrey Epstein a job as a teacher at a very prestigious school, was that about education? What was the REAL MOTIVATION. What is the real function of these schools? And how has that function changed over the years?

    I'm generally against all-male all-female boarding schools and I think there is definitely greater potential for homosexual predation in all male institutions. I don't think institutions were all male in the past as a front for homosexuality. I think it was a matter of COMMON SENSE, like having men in combat or on a construction site, but this common sense is deeply offensive to subversive radicals. The US abandoned sex and race segregation because it places radical ideology far above education in importance. Far above the importance of suitable preparation for family life.

    One thing those Chinese do, is worry about what their ancestors think. And how they are going to honor their ancestors, carry on their family line. The West has been under the influence of subversives who have prevailed upon the general population that they shouldn't worry about such things.

    Replies: @vot tak

    And homosexual males wonder why they encounter so much pushback when they mount their soap boxes. 😀

    • Replies: @GazaPlanet
    @vot tak

    If you're interested in a real conversation, try to engage the content of the post. Sex segregation in the past was not generally motivated by homosexuality. It was motivated by the psychological differences of the sexes and the obvious problems of bringing them together during adolescence. The rainbow flag people are a menace to society, but they were let loose by the libertines, who think high school should be a sex romp, and that learning is relatively unimportant. The historical institution of coeducation was definitely motivated by the desire to promote liberal sexual mores. It wasn't about education.

    Replies: @anon, @vot tak

  364. Wouldn’t it be better to dispassionately look at the facts?

    For instance, check this. You’ll see that a very big chunk of graduate students & postdocs are Asians, especially the Chinese. So, it must be more that simply grinding hard work…

    Harvard
    https://www.math.harvard.edu/people/

    Princeton
    https://www.math.princeton.edu/people

    https://www.math.princeton.edu/people/graduate-students

    Caltech
    https://pma.caltech.edu/people?cat_one=all&cat_two=Mathematics

    MIT
    https://math.mit.edu/directory/graduate.php

    Stanford
    https://mathematics.stanford.edu/people/graduate-students

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Bardon Kaldian

    This thread is getting pretty old, but apparently it's a status marker for Asians to get graduate degrees, even if they're unnecessary. Other races would just rather go get jobs. This comes from my professor brother who watched all his Asian students go off to grad school and his white students go off to work.

  365. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Washington State is in Pullman, WA near the Idaho border. U. of Washington is in the middle of Seattle.

    Replies: @vot tak

    “Washington State is in Pullman, WA near the Idaho border. U. of Washington is in the middle of Seattle.”

    So?

    You’re talking about less than a days drive. Like heading up tothe bay area from la in ca.

    Regardless, washington state should be considered as part of the midwest. Same generally rightwing intollerant world view among the monkeys there. I found very little difference between the denizens of wash and idaho in most matters. Very right wing. Very intollerant of “auslanders” and their views. In fact, washington staters came across as more extreme.

    For example a woman I talked with back in the early 1990s had moved to seattle. She told me about a seattle pasttime called keying cars. If they saw a car with ca license plates, they would scratch it along the side with a key as they walked by. Unoccupied cars, of course, being the bog standard chickenshit pindo scum of midwest type persuasion.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @vot tak

    After all, whoever heard of a white man starting a successful business in Seattle. I mean, other than Boeing, Nordstrom, Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, and Costco ...

    Replies: @vot tak

    , @Poco
    @vot tak

    Tolerance is for chumps. Intolerant auslander.

    Replies: @vot tak

  366. @vot tak
    @GazaPlanet

    And homosexual males wonder why they encounter so much pushback when they mount their soap boxes. :-D

    Replies: @GazaPlanet

    If you’re interested in a real conversation, try to engage the content of the post. Sex segregation in the past was not generally motivated by homosexuality. It was motivated by the psychological differences of the sexes and the obvious problems of bringing them together during adolescence. The rainbow flag people are a menace to society, but they were let loose by the libertines, who think high school should be a sex romp, and that learning is relatively unimportant. The historical institution of coeducation was definitely motivated by the desire to promote liberal sexual mores. It wasn’t about education.

    • Replies: @anon
    @GazaPlanet

    If you’re interested in a real conversation, try to engage the content of the post.

    Please take your own advice. Thanks!

    , @vot tak
    @GazaPlanet

    "Sex segregation in the past was not generally motivated by homosexuality."

    Yes it was and it still is. Overwhelmingly. Who but homosexuals would want to prevent people of both genders being together? The practice was intended to prevent gender togetherness and foster seperatism. Who but homosexuals in the past would want this?

    As for the present, and recent past (20th century), this effort to promote inter gender hostility ispart of the same work promoting racial hostilities. Part of the divide and conquer strategy used by zionazi-gays, and their jailhouse suka fellow travellers to keep people down, occupied fighting each other, rather than those who keep them down.

    Then there are also the sorts who personally cant see having a relationship with another without it being one of master and slave/domestic animal. This psychotic mentality dovetails well with the divisive male vs female psywar promoted by that guardianista gazaplanet websayan.

    Replies: @anon, @GazaPlanet

  367. @vot tak
    @Steve Sailer

    "Washington State is in Pullman, WA near the Idaho border. U. of Washington is in the middle of Seattle."

    So?

    You're talking about less than a days drive. Like heading up tothe bay area from la in ca.

    Regardless, washington state should be considered as part of the midwest. Same generally rightwing intollerant world view among the monkeys there. I found very little difference between the denizens of wash and idaho in most matters. Very right wing. Very intollerant of "auslanders" and their views. In fact, washington staters came across as more extreme.

    For example a woman I talked with back in the early 1990s had moved to seattle. She told me about a seattle pasttime called keying cars. If they saw a car with ca license plates, they would scratch it along the side with a key as they walked by. Unoccupied cars, of course, being the bog standard chickenshit pindo scum of midwest type persuasion.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Poco

    After all, whoever heard of a white man starting a successful business in Seattle. I mean, other than Boeing, Nordstrom, Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, and Costco …

    • Replies: @vot tak
    @Steve Sailer

    "After all, whoever heard of a white man starting a successful business in Seattle. I mean, other than Boeing, Nordstrom, Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, and Costco …"

    And that relates to what I wrote in what way?

  368. @Old Palo Altan
    @syonredux

    "Thousands of dollars for private coaching and test prep"?

    In my day we didn't even know the day the test would be administered.

    "SAT today, boys" and that was that.

    Replies: @anon

    In my day we didn’t even know the day the test would be administered.

    Wasn’t it a challenge taking the SAT b