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Planned Alan Turing Memorial Dorkwad-Gaywad Alliance Craters as Slate's Gay Avengers Turn on "Imitation Game" Writer for Claiming Straight Weird Kids Are Victims Too
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Above: As President Clinton looks on, dorkwad and gaywad leaders sign the landmark Wad Alliance Treaty.

Back in December in my review of the Alan Turing biopic “The Imitation Game,” I pointed out that the message of the movie about the martyred gay proto-nerd was reminiscent of an old Onion article:

Gaywads, Dorkwads Sign Historic Wad Accord
Feb 10, 1999

ROCKVILLE, MD—In a historic show of wad solidarity, delegates representing gaywads and dorkwads signed the first-ever Wad Alliance Treaty Monday in the cafeteria of Adlai Stevenson Memorial High School.

The landmark accord, whose signing was presided over by President Clinton, is considered the most significant step ever taken toward wad unification. …

Gaywad Jeff Brunner, 14, agreed. “From this day forward,” he said, “we will no longer see each other as dorkwads and gaywads, but instead, simply as wads, brothers united in our collective struggle against wad persecution.”

Many of those present at the signing ceremony were overcome with emotion, necessitating the emergency use of a number of asthma inhalers. At least one attendee shot milk out of his nose.

“The road to wad healing has begun,” said Clinton, who, working closely with Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and the ASHS Key Club, was instrumental in the delicate after-school negotiations that led to Monday’s signing. “Thanks to the efforts of those on both sides, we can look forward to the day when the wads of this great nation can all sit down together and play Magic: The Gathering at the table of brotherhood.”

Though some feared there would be trouble at the signing ceremony, it went off mostly without incident. The notable exception was a brief episode in which a Games magazine belonging to major gaywad Stephen Tempelman, 15, was confiscated by three junior-varsity basketball players. After a brief scuffle, during which the popular athletes engaged Tempelman in a spirited game of “keep-away,” National Guardsmen were mobilized to seize the magazine and return it to its rightful gaywad owner. …

“The countless cruel acts perpetrated against wads, including swirlies, noogies, titty-twisters, wet willies, purple nurples and Indian sunburns, as well as the throwing of wad headgear and retainers onto the roof of the school, have been tolerated long enough,” said gaywad leader and chaotic evil magic-user/thief Lenny Berger, 15. “But such injustice will not cease until the day we finally join together, forming an unstoppable wad juggernaut to defend ourselves against the jocks, stoners, stuck-ups, cheerleaders, metalheads, gearheads and all others who would seek to destroy us. We can no longer afford to waste our efforts fighting against each other. Too many mathletes have died.”

I’m serious about the intent of the movie being to engineer a nerd-gay alliance. The screenwriter of The Imitation Game, Graham Moore, is the son of Democratic political operative Susan Sher, who was Mrs. Obama’s chief-of-staff and is now a bagwoman fundraiser for the Obama Library, so Moore has a good Chicago political head on his shoulders. The screenwriter comes more from the nerd side of the divide (Moore is apparently an effeminate heterosexual). His first book, The Sherlockian, was an updated Sherlock Holmes mystery; and his movie minimizes the gay stuff (which would have to have been about an aging toff with a taste for teenage rough trade) in favor of Benedict Cumberbatch doing his Sherlock-as-supercilious-nerd impression again.

So, everything was working according to Moore’s plan to build Clintonian bridges between the geeks and the gays until the screenwriter got up to give his Oscar acceptance speech. But he implied that being a “weird” kid in high school, like he was, is comparable in victimism Pokemon points to being a gay kid in high school, and all hell broke loose with the Designated Gay Avengers at Slate. Lesbian June Thomas immediately responded:

Moore went on to share with the millions of telecast viewers that at the age of 16, he tried to kill himself “because I felt weird, and I felt different, and I felt that I did not belong. And now I’m standing here, and I would like this moment to be for that kid out there who feels she’s weird or she’s different or she doesn’t fit in anywhere. Yes, you do. … Stay different, and then when it’s your turn, and you’re standing on this stage, please pass the message to the next person that comes along.”

I wish that Moore had drawn a clearer line between his comments about Turing—a man who was persecuted and prosecuted for his homosexuality—and his “it gets better” message to teens who are merely weird and different. … But it’s also important to note that being gay simply isn’t the same as being a “geek.” Moore may see them as comparable (and, though he has identified himself as straight, his affect may have opened him up to homophobic bullying), but the truth of the matter is that the social force behind anti-gay prejudice is far stronger and more pernicious than the animus against social outcasts. Moore’s heart was surely in the right place, but I wish he hadn’t conflated these identities.

The next day, professional homosexualist J. Bryan Lowder chimed in on Slate:

During his speech, Moore—who confirmed to BuzzFeed early Monday morning that despite widespread assumption to the contrary, he does not identify as gay—revealed that his own vague adolescent weirdness and concomitant difficulties led him to the precipice of suicide when he was 16, and he offered his success as a sort of “It Gets Better” case study for teens who might feel like outsiders themselves.

Obviously, Moore’s general sentiment is a fine one—nobody is debating that—and any criticism of his delivery must of course be tempered by an allowance for the craziness of speaking from the Oscar stage. But those who are expressing discomfort with the speech are not wrong to find fault with Graham’s implied comparison between the experience of being gay in a still largely homophobic society (liberal Hollywood award shows notwithstanding) and standard teenage disaffection. Moreover, the number and intensity of incredulous dismissals of that response (see the comments on June’s post for a bracing sample) suggest that a lot of people don’t understand or reject the difference entirely….

Homosexuality is a fundamental identity that, despite the occasional “it’s a small part of me” talking point, deeply determines how one sees and is seen by the world. On the other hand, being “weird” or “different” presumably involves a set of interests or chosen behaviors (however deeply beloved) that distance one from the cultural mainstream in a more limited way. Put differently: Being a straight weirdo is, on balance, just not as totalizing or stressful a situation as being a gay person. …

Bullying may suck for everyone, but being a Trekkie or socially awkward or straight edge or whatever just doesn’t have the same weight in that regard as being a sexual minority. For gays, the bully is the entire culture—a culture that often works its way insidiously inside your head—not just a stupid cool kid in third period.But for that, we need a social justice strategy focused on correcting deep-seated structural inequality rather than one that merely encourages a “tolerance” of diversity.

And then Lowder goes on to document that all his other gay activist friends on Twitter were as offended as he was.

To be clear, this isn’t about playing a round of “Oppression Olympics.”

Oh, yes it is.

Moore’s mistake was to think of Democratic Identity Politics as a game of coalition building. But it’s actually a negative sum game based on self-pity and hate, of being fringier-than-thou. Without an Emmanuel Goldstein / Haven Monahan hate figure to unite the minorities, the liberal coalition groups turn their knives on each other.

 
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  1. Turing was a genius. And a war hero. Two impressive things.

    Of course, he also was unwilling to keep his hands off teenage boys. The teenager he finally got caught with was 19. The rumors I always heard was that 19 was definitely the upper end of the age range that Turing liked his boys to be.

    I’m guessing Hollywood won’t be exploring that aspect of Turing’s life.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Chang

    Was he a chickenhawk?

  2. When I was in high school, the goths and other alternative “freak” types were the ones who seemed to get the most flack from the “popular” kids. It never would have occurred to me to associate “bullied” with “gay” – at least, not exclusively. Yeah, “fag” was a popular epithet, but anyone who wasn’t rich, athletic, and/or good-looking was fair game for harassment from a certain group of assholes. Some of the angriest, most-bullied, most-resentful guys I knew were also the straightest – they despised the jocks not because they shoved them around, but because they had the hottest girlfriends.

    I still don’t get why people are so willing to accept this “only gays get bullied” meme – don’t they remember what it was like?

    I was lucky – I was fat and acne-ridden, but my big frame discouraged kids from messing with me. I was a loner, anyway, so I didn’t care about not being able to play the reindeer games.

    • Replies: @Gunnar von Cowtown
    @Stan Adams

    I think you're right. Looking back, the most flamboyantly "came out of the closet in college" gay guys at my high school (circa 1987-1991) often hung out with cheerleaders and the super hot chicks on the drill team. In addition to being good dancers as Steve pointed out, they were also the leads in every schoo play and witty enough to deflect most of the jocks' rhetorical barbs. The Goth loners and uber-Trekkies seemed to have a much rougher time.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  3. Without an Emmanuel Goldstein / Haven Monahan hate figure to unite the minorities, the liberal coalition groups turn their knives on each other.

    Yeah, apparently Patricia Arquette is the Hated White Woman of the day for blacks on Twitter due to her comments at the Academy Awards.

  4. So long as we observers are standing outside of the leftist circular firing squad, what’s the problem? We don’t even have to pick favorites because they’ll all go down after the circular firing squad has finished the job. The Left eating their own is fantastic entertainment.

  5. @Chang
    Turing was a genius. And a war hero. Two impressive things.

    Of course, he also was unwilling to keep his hands off teenage boys. The teenager he finally got caught with was 19. The rumors I always heard was that 19 was definitely the upper end of the age range that Turing liked his boys to be.

    I'm guessing Hollywood won't be exploring that aspect of Turing's life.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Was he a chickenhawk?

  6. The onion article picks up on how there’s a certain constellation of traits whose incidence are correlated: nerd, gay, myopic, left-handed, awkward, libertarian, physically uncoordinated.

    If you’re any one of the above, you’re more likely than average to be one of the others.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Lot

    Does gay fit in with the rest of the traits: For example, are gays more likely to be awkward dancers?

    Replies: @Lot

  7. @Lot
    The onion article picks up on how there's a certain constellation of traits whose incidence are correlated: nerd, gay, myopic, left-handed, awkward, libertarian, physically uncoordinated.

    If you're any one of the above, you're more likely than average to be one of the others.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Does gay fit in with the rest of the traits: For example, are gays more likely to be awkward dancers?

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Steve Sailer

    Dancing isn't all that hard with interest and practice, and another gay tendency to be interested in arty pursuits probably offsets the nerd tendencies.

    I do think, however, that all else equal, including interest and practice, gays would be worse dancers than straight men, just like they seem to be worse athletes in general.

    There's really three groups of sports, one where you have practiced and memorized movements and gays do well, like diving and figure skating, second those that require quick reactions to others' motions, like basketball, where gays do poorly, and third that involve solo physical feats like track where I'd expect gays do poorly due to lack of interest and thus the required extreme dedication. Dancing is more the first group.

    The gay correlation with left handedness, lack of athleticism, and libertarianism* I am sure of, so the others should also follow.

    *I've been told by a reliable source in a position to know that active college libertarians, and the people working for the various Koch-funded libertarian groups, are about 20% gay, so 6X overrepresented.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Bill, @anon

  8. Steve’s links to Slate and other such websites usually have good intel on the latest neologisms of the left. I see that saying “X is straight” is now out and the correct terminology is “X identifies as straight”. I guess sexuality is just as much of a construct as race.

    • Replies: @The Z Blog
    @SnakeEyes

    The application of the grammatical term "gender: to biology was the first step down the road to "biology is a social construct." Way back when that started, a hood way to get the usual suspect cross with you was to insist on using the word "sex" rather than "gender." When the homos were initially up in arms, using the word "homosexual" rather than "gay" would get you a lecture.

    The hilarious (to me) irony of modern times is that the same people lecturing scott Walker about evolution are the same people arguing biology and DNA are myths.

  9. Moore didn’t get any brownie (or Pokemon) points for using the default female pronoun.

  10. They’re just getting started:
    http://thebea.st/1GmdrhG

    Arquette didn’t win any more points when she elaborated on her speech during a press conference backstage. Women remained the focal point: She stressed that “even though we sort of feel we have equal rights for women,” we still have a long way to go.

    “And it’s time for all the women in America—and all the men that love women and all the gay people and all the people of color that we’ve all fought for—to fight for us now.”

    More word parsing: The Frisky called it “tone deaf,” while Fusion rushed to decry Arquette’s “feminist whitesplaining” because she failed to clearly articulate “a basic fact: LGBT people and people of color are, in fact, women too.”

    Pontificating while white and failing to include trans men as women. It just gets harder and harder to keep up.

  11. “see the comments on June’s post for a bracing sample”
    Whenever there is some slight pushback btl from the very liberal readers of Slate/Salon etc the writers never think to themselves maybe I’ve overreached this time instead they always double down.

  12. The modern left is a bit like Hinduism.

    You are born into your caste. Your caste depends on your karma. Your karma is determined by actions of your forebears. Nothing you do affects your karma..you are stuck with it for life. Now in the leftwing victim caste system there are two sorts of karma..the good sort of karma is from how much oppression your caste supposedly receives. Lets call this “victim karma”. The more victim karma you have, the more inherently moral you are. You can also have negative Karma..lets call it “Privilege”. The more “Privilege” you have the worse you are. Your caste is determined by the difference between the two.

    Nothing you do has any effect on your victim karma. Your caste is set at birth. A black spree shooter has more inherent moral worth than a white philanthropist due to his superior karma. If you want to improve your karma, your only hope is that you can somehow convince the priesthood that you actually belong into a different caste. So you put on a wig and call yourself trans. Or you pretend to have mental disabilities.

    Now its not enough to have a caste..you have to show your caste in order to display your victim karma. So, with the precision of a scientist enumerating a new species you display all your adjectives so people can see where your victim caste is. You aren’t just a woman…you are a black cis gendered Jewish lesbian. That way you know precisely who you can feel superior too, and who you must grovel before.

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    @Zoodles

    [email protected] Zoodles - I took the liberty of posting your comment on the NYT. Hope you don't mind.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/opinion/research-shows-white-privilege-is-real.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region&region=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region

    Replies: @Zoodles, @ic1000, @syonredux

    , @Chang
    @Zoodles

    nicely said

    , @ladague
    @Zoodles

    I disagree that the modern left is like Hinduism with castes and karma. The left is all about being an hysterical young woman who wants to know whether you really love her.

    It's not just women, of course; this is how it works with kids. A kid will go to his mother and say, 'Do you love me?' and she will say 'Yes'. Then he will say, 'Would you love me if I made a mistake? 'Um, yes...' 'Would you love me if I sort of accidentally played football in the house and broke your favourite lamp?' What the kid means by 'love' here is 'Even though I did something really stupid, will you not yell at me or take away my pocket money?'

    So it is with women, especially young women. The woman wants to know whether you really love her despite the fact that she:

    (1) Ran off with her Internet lover who turned out not to be a fabulously rich jet-setter but a Guatemalan farmer with bad breath and no money. It's called 'exploring her sexuality'.

    (2) Maxed out the credit card. For the 18th time, of course. That's called 'exploring her fiscality'.

    (3) Shaved off all her hair and had 'Death to all Males' tattooed on her head. This is called 'exploring her skinality'.

    Despite all this, or anything else she cooks up, she wants, no needs, you to love her, to really, really love her. By that she means that you will never say one thing about anything she has done but to congratulate her on her 'exploring new frontiers'. By that she means that you will not leave her. By that she means that you will keep funding her 'little adventures'.

    If you don't do all these things, she will hate you forever because it means that you will have never loved her, not once, and that everything you did together was a sham. It was a falsehood. It was abuse. It was rape.

    It's all about loyalty, you see. Either you are loyal now, this time, every time, or you were never loyal, not once. That's what the left is all about: loyalty for the sake of loyalty. Loyalty equals power, for if you are loyal to them - unconditionally loyal to them - then they have power over you.

    Now while most people go through stages where they felt like this, especially as a teenager, most people also grow out of it. You make think you are a 'special snowflake', but the boss in your first job will not and he won't be shy telling you that. You may think that the world revolves around you until you are turned down for credit. You may think that everyone loves you until your true love tells you 'goodbye'. And so on. Reality punctures your little balloon, but you survive and grow up. You learn that you are not the only one in the world and that you must make compromises. You learn to think about something other than yourself.

    The funny thing is is that the left must experience some of these things. It's not possible that no-one on the left has never had anyone turn him down for something. So what happens? Why do these people not grow up? Why do they remain so self-absorbed?

    I am beginning to wonder whether there is some sort of genetic influence going on here. Think about it. Whites tend to mature later than blacks and so that means that certain genes do whatever it is they do at a different schedule. Suppose that there is, as usual, a range of when this maturity develops. It is possible, therefore, that some people mature too slowly. Maybe what we are seeing is genetic slow developers getting together and using the system to select for each other.

  13. @SnakeEyes
    Steve's links to Slate and other such websites usually have good intel on the latest neologisms of the left. I see that saying "X is straight" is now out and the correct terminology is "X identifies as straight". I guess sexuality is just as much of a construct as race.

    Replies: @The Z Blog

    The application of the grammatical term “gender: to biology was the first step down the road to “biology is a social construct.” Way back when that started, a hood way to get the usual suspect cross with you was to insist on using the word “sex” rather than “gender.” When the homos were initially up in arms, using the word “homosexual” rather than “gay” would get you a lecture.

    The hilarious (to me) irony of modern times is that the same people lecturing scott Walker about evolution are the same people arguing biology and DNA are myths.

  14. This gets to the central weakness of the victim game: being black, gay, etc can certainly be disadvantageous, but so can being fat, short, ugly, shy, nervous, and so on ad infinitum. Most people understand that a tall, good looking black guy will have an easier time of it than a short, white troll. That is a huge threat to the victim racket. If everyone’s on the list, then nobody is.

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    @Jean Cocteausten

    Ugly people have it worst of all. They are the true untouchables. Does anyone doubt that?

  15. @Stan Adams
    When I was in high school, the goths and other alternative "freak" types were the ones who seemed to get the most flack from the "popular" kids. It never would have occurred to me to associate "bullied" with "gay" - at least, not exclusively. Yeah, "fag" was a popular epithet, but anyone who wasn't rich, athletic, and/or good-looking was fair game for harassment from a certain group of assholes. Some of the angriest, most-bullied, most-resentful guys I knew were also the straightest - they despised the jocks not because they shoved them around, but because they had the hottest girlfriends.

    I still don't get why people are so willing to accept this "only gays get bullied" meme - don't they remember what it was like?

    I was lucky - I was fat and acne-ridden, but my big frame discouraged kids from messing with me. I was a loner, anyway, so I didn't care about not being able to play the reindeer games.

    Replies: @Gunnar von Cowtown

    I think you’re right. Looking back, the most flamboyantly “came out of the closet in college” gay guys at my high school (circa 1987-1991) often hung out with cheerleaders and the super hot chicks on the drill team. In addition to being good dancers as Steve pointed out, they were also the leads in every schoo play and witty enough to deflect most of the jocks’ rhetorical barbs. The Goth loners and uber-Trekkies seemed to have a much rougher time.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Gunnar von Cowtown

    "In addition to being good dancers as Steve pointed out, they were also the leads in every schoo play and witty enough to deflect most of the jocks’ rhetorical barbs."

    Right. Stan mentioned that, " ... anyone who wasn’t rich, athletic, and/or good-looking was fair game for harassment from a certain group of assholes." A trait he left off was charming, and a lot of gay guys are very charming. Charm holds a lot of value in our society, and can carry you pretty far.

    I agree with you and Stan that I have also never associated gay with bullying and was a little thrown off when that whole narrative got started.

    Replies: @ABN

  16. Two comments/observations:

    (1) When I read the Onion headline and saw the photograph I thought they were for real. OTOH, reading the “real” news items left me with a surreal feeling. We left Kansas a long time ago.

    (2) Until reading your post I did not understand the strange portrayal of Turing in the movie. In real life Turing was an Olympic level athlete. He would have made the 1936 British Olympic track team had an acute illness not kept him from the preliminary competition. He actually got along quite well with other people and had many friends. The material about his inept social skills at Bletchley Park was unfair fantasy; just as much as the suggestion that he was a superman who built the computer, programmed it, and solved the German codes with minimal help from bumbling assistants and interfering manangers. This is pure geek fantasy-revenge-for-imagined-high-school-slights material.

    (3) In the high school food chain, academic geeks are below athletes and cheerleaders and the student politicians and those voted most likely to ____ in the yearbook. But they are way up there above most of the rest of the student body. It is their ability to intellectualize their grudges that makes them feel so put upon. They are a perfect fit for this brave new world. (BTW, I speak from experience. It was my academic geekiness that saved me from a lot of misery in HS. I used to pity the more average students who were in a constant agony of fear that they would become the next butt of the alpha males and females and with no special status to protect them. I could not fully comprehend or verbalize this situation at the time but on some level I was aware of it.)

    • Replies: @Bill
    @Jus' Sayin'...


    (3) In the high school food chain, academic geeks are below athletes and cheerleaders and the student politicians and those voted most likely to ____ in the yearbook. But they are way up there above most of the rest of the student body. It is their ability to intellectualize their grudges that makes them feel so put upon. They are a perfect fit for this brave new world. (BTW, I speak from experience. It was my academic geekiness that saved me from a lot of misery in HS. I used to pity the more average students who were in a constant agony of fear that they would become the next butt of the alpha males and females and with no special status to protect them. I could not fully comprehend or verbalize this situation at the time but on some level I was aware of it.)
     
    That's very insightful. Deserves an orange box, IMHO.
  17. By the way everyone should start using http://www.archive.today instead of directly linking to Slate, Salon, Daily Beast and other stupid click bait “news” websites. Less clicks = less advertising revenues.

  18. Lowder :

    During his speech, Moore—who confirmed to BuzzFeed early Monday morning that despite widespread assumption to the contrary, he does not identify as gay

    Guess that Moore wasn’t smart enough to say that he “identifies” as bisexual.That’s what the trendy straight chicks in Hollywood do.It’s the easy way to grab an extra Pokemon victim point (cf Anna “I’m a bisexual” Paquin: married to a man, has two kids).Of course, people do take proclamations of bisexuality a bit more seriously from men. Cf the line from Sex and the City about bisexuality for men being a short layover on the way to Gaytown.

    Lowder:

    Homosexuality is a fundamental identity

    Gotta love how Lowder goes from “identifies” (the language of choice, the marketplace, and the sportsfan: I identify as a Patriot’s fan) to “fundamental” (the language of essentialism, which all good post-modernists are supposed to abhor). Having your cake and eating it, too?

  19. Didn’t feminists have this same problem of resentment when they first equated their situation with the black situation? One doesn’t hear a lot of black opposition anymore but I remember that it was quite spirited at the time. The black grassroots opposition to LGBT(n) is still in place.

  20. Clearly this dude was bullied for “seeming” gay, so shouldn’t he get a pass from the grievance micromanagers?

  21. It seemed for years that the gay folks were trying to pull on folks sensitivity to racism to gain victim points for themselves. I remember back in my college days having several conversations where people were arguing for just that. I also remember having conversations with blacks where they were very resentful of the comparison between the “black plight” and the “gay plight”. They would hear none of it.

    So now, everybody is falling over themselves to show their sensitivity for the “gay plight” and now it looks like the outcasts want in on the game and the gays are on the other side of the divide, resisting the encroachment of yet another victim group.

    I tend to think, though, that this drama won’t play out the same way as it did for the gays. The outcasts won’t pull much sympathy for the same reason they are outcasts in the first place. And they won’t be able to organize in the same way either, since the hallmark of the outcast is social awkwardness, which makes it difficult for them to even deal with each other, much less anyone else.

  22. For freaks and misfits and malcontents and every other type of bitter, resentful, irrational loser, this is a Golden Age.

  23. I wish I had known as a young, weird kid who got bullied that all I had to do to get people to give a shit was get caught with a dick in my mouth.

  24. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Gunnar von Cowtown
    @Stan Adams

    I think you're right. Looking back, the most flamboyantly "came out of the closet in college" gay guys at my high school (circa 1987-1991) often hung out with cheerleaders and the super hot chicks on the drill team. In addition to being good dancers as Steve pointed out, they were also the leads in every schoo play and witty enough to deflect most of the jocks' rhetorical barbs. The Goth loners and uber-Trekkies seemed to have a much rougher time.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    “In addition to being good dancers as Steve pointed out, they were also the leads in every schoo play and witty enough to deflect most of the jocks’ rhetorical barbs.”

    Right. Stan mentioned that, ” … anyone who wasn’t rich, athletic, and/or good-looking was fair game for harassment from a certain group of assholes.” A trait he left off was charming, and a lot of gay guys are very charming. Charm holds a lot of value in our society, and can carry you pretty far.

    I agree with you and Stan that I have also never associated gay with bullying and was a little thrown off when that whole narrative got started.

    • Replies: @ABN
    @Anonymous


    I agree with you and Stan that I have also never associated gay with bullying and was a little thrown off when that whole narrative got started.
     
    Maybe the incidence of it increased as homosexuality became normalized. Presumably a couple of generations ago gays would have been more likely to be closeted, or at any rate discreet and less flamboyant. But since the dominant culture now favors expressive individualism in general and homosexuality specifically, maybe gays have become more overt and conspicuous.

    Since everyone suppresses parts of their instincts or personalities sometimes in order to fit in and be well-socialized, you could argue that gay kids today are being used as ideological bait by leftists--i.e., they're encouraged not to suppress anything, and when their peers (who are, after all, immature kids) inevitably react to this behavior, good liberals can hammer the bad kids for homophobia and thereby gain status points.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  25. @Steve Sailer
    @Lot

    Does gay fit in with the rest of the traits: For example, are gays more likely to be awkward dancers?

    Replies: @Lot

    Dancing isn’t all that hard with interest and practice, and another gay tendency to be interested in arty pursuits probably offsets the nerd tendencies.

    I do think, however, that all else equal, including interest and practice, gays would be worse dancers than straight men, just like they seem to be worse athletes in general.

    There’s really three groups of sports, one where you have practiced and memorized movements and gays do well, like diving and figure skating, second those that require quick reactions to others’ motions, like basketball, where gays do poorly, and third that involve solo physical feats like track where I’d expect gays do poorly due to lack of interest and thus the required extreme dedication. Dancing is more the first group.

    The gay correlation with left handedness, lack of athleticism, and libertarianism* I am sure of, so the others should also follow.

    *I’ve been told by a reliable source in a position to know that active college libertarians, and the people working for the various Koch-funded libertarian groups, are about 20% gay, so 6X overrepresented.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Lot

    "I do think, however, that all else equal, including interest and practice, gays would be worse dancers than straight men, just like they seem to be worse athletes in general."

    This gay friend in college was the best male dancer at Rice U. I talked him into playing on my softball team, but he was a remarkably bad outfielder, even by my standards. One fly ball he had camped under came down and hit him right on the left elbow.

    , @Anonymous
    @Lot

    "There’s really three groups of sports, one where you have practiced and memorized movements and gays do well, like diving and figure skating ... "

    I don't think you're accurately characterizing ice skating and diving. What they require are gracefulness, flexibility and balance - traits that tend to be feminine. The fact that the movements are practiced and memorized are secondary.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Chrisnonymous

    , @Bill
    @Lot


    Dancing isn’t all that hard with interest and practice, and another gay tendency to be interested in arty pursuits probably offsets the nerd tendencies.

    I do think, however, that all else equal, including interest and practice, gays would be worse dancers than straight men, just like they seem to be worse athletes in general.
     
    Everyone's favorite gay, transvestite internet Nazi, James J. O'Meara, used to ramble on in this vein all the time over at Takimag. He even has a book about it. The near absence of straight men among dancers, figure skaters, and the like seems to be a relatively recent US-centric disease. Bad for straight men and bad for the arts. Men, however, definitely want other men to know that they are not homos. So, no dancing.

    Even nailing Jessica Lange in her prime, having a kid with her, and having three kids with a ballerina is not enough to put to rest rumors that Barishnykov is a big homo. It doesn't help, of course, that he prances around protesting Russia's anti-homo laws.
    , @anon
    @Lot

    A non-trivial number of gays play competitive ultimate frisbee (mild over-representation?). Some of them are damn good and very serious about it. Bring what I would call a sort of distinct gay intensity/aggression. Maybe it's the targeted channeling of non-reproductive energy. They aren't on the nerd spectrum at all, but probably have the higher prevalence of left-handedness. I guess they're simply gay jocks.

    Replies: @Lot

  26. @Lot
    @Steve Sailer

    Dancing isn't all that hard with interest and practice, and another gay tendency to be interested in arty pursuits probably offsets the nerd tendencies.

    I do think, however, that all else equal, including interest and practice, gays would be worse dancers than straight men, just like they seem to be worse athletes in general.

    There's really three groups of sports, one where you have practiced and memorized movements and gays do well, like diving and figure skating, second those that require quick reactions to others' motions, like basketball, where gays do poorly, and third that involve solo physical feats like track where I'd expect gays do poorly due to lack of interest and thus the required extreme dedication. Dancing is more the first group.

    The gay correlation with left handedness, lack of athleticism, and libertarianism* I am sure of, so the others should also follow.

    *I've been told by a reliable source in a position to know that active college libertarians, and the people working for the various Koch-funded libertarian groups, are about 20% gay, so 6X overrepresented.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Bill, @anon

    “I do think, however, that all else equal, including interest and practice, gays would be worse dancers than straight men, just like they seem to be worse athletes in general.”

    This gay friend in college was the best male dancer at Rice U. I talked him into playing on my softball team, but he was a remarkably bad outfielder, even by my standards. One fly ball he had camped under came down and hit him right on the left elbow.

  27. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    @Steve Sailer

    Dancing isn't all that hard with interest and practice, and another gay tendency to be interested in arty pursuits probably offsets the nerd tendencies.

    I do think, however, that all else equal, including interest and practice, gays would be worse dancers than straight men, just like they seem to be worse athletes in general.

    There's really three groups of sports, one where you have practiced and memorized movements and gays do well, like diving and figure skating, second those that require quick reactions to others' motions, like basketball, where gays do poorly, and third that involve solo physical feats like track where I'd expect gays do poorly due to lack of interest and thus the required extreme dedication. Dancing is more the first group.

    The gay correlation with left handedness, lack of athleticism, and libertarianism* I am sure of, so the others should also follow.

    *I've been told by a reliable source in a position to know that active college libertarians, and the people working for the various Koch-funded libertarian groups, are about 20% gay, so 6X overrepresented.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Bill, @anon

    “There’s really three groups of sports, one where you have practiced and memorized movements and gays do well, like diving and figure skating … ”

    I don’t think you’re accurately characterizing ice skating and diving. What they require are gracefulness, flexibility and balance – traits that tend to be feminine. The fact that the movements are practiced and memorized are secondary.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Anonymous


    …gracefulness, flexibility and balance – traits that tend to be feminine.
     
    By these standards, is there a single feminine politician in the land?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Anonymous

    I don’t think you’re accurately characterizing ice skating and diving. What they require are gracefulness, flexibility and balance – traits that tend to be feminine. The fact that the movements are practiced and memorized are secondary.

    Actually, this is a good characterization. What activities with practiced movements have in common is that you can rehearse them in your head. So all the narcissism and self-involvement can play out as productive performance-enhancement.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  28. No such thing as “oppression Olympics?”

    What do they think the “progressive stack” is all about?

    What is all this talk about “intersectionality” all about, but to paper over the internecine back stabbing within the coalition of the fringes?

    The only time where there’s coalition building in this Star Wars bar scene is when a mulatto needs to win an election. Otherwise, it’s every freak for itself.

    • Replies: @Hereward
    @countenance

    Intersectionality is Identity Politics’ version of heraldry – a method of determining dignity and precedence among the competing victims.  A member of the diverse community who prefaces a statement with “As a differently abled transwoman of color…” is essentially displaying the quarterings of her coat-of-arms.

  29. Sounds like a silly question but I’ve never heard an explanation of why gay males seem to lisp more often.is it an affectation or a real thing?

    • Replies: @keypusher
    @L7's

    I suspect it's an affectation, and not a very common one. I know a lot of gay men and none of them have a lisp.

    Replies: @syonredux

    , @donut
    @L7's

    In the 19th century upper class Englishmen affected to pronounce their r's as a w . And it wasn't just the pillow biters.

    Replies: @keypusher

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @L7's


    Sounds like a silly question but I’ve never heard an explanation of why gay males seem to lisp more often.is it an affectation or a real thing?

     

    It's probably less connected to "sexuality" than to epicenity-- is that a word?-- or refined tastes. There are plenty of straight guys with similar sibilance, e.g., Vincent Price, Al Gore, Donovan and Al Stewart when they sing.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Lot

  30. @Zoodles
    The modern left is a bit like Hinduism.

    You are born into your caste. Your caste depends on your karma. Your karma is determined by actions of your forebears. Nothing you do affects your karma..you are stuck with it for life. Now in the leftwing victim caste system there are two sorts of karma..the good sort of karma is from how much oppression your caste supposedly receives. Lets call this "victim karma". The more victim karma you have, the more inherently moral you are. You can also have negative Karma..lets call it "Privilege". The more "Privilege" you have the worse you are. Your caste is determined by the difference between the two.

    Nothing you do has any effect on your victim karma. Your caste is set at birth. A black spree shooter has more inherent moral worth than a white philanthropist due to his superior karma. If you want to improve your karma, your only hope is that you can somehow convince the priesthood that you actually belong into a different caste. So you put on a wig and call yourself trans. Or you pretend to have mental disabilities.

    Now its not enough to have a caste..you have to show your caste in order to display your victim karma. So, with the precision of a scientist enumerating a new species you display all your adjectives so people can see where your victim caste is. You aren't just a woman...you are a black cis gendered Jewish lesbian. That way you know precisely who you can feel superior too, and who you must grovel before.

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @Chang, @ladague

    • Replies: @Zoodles
    @Luke Lea

    Don't mind at all.

    I got this idea while reading two individuals arguing about who got to be the Most Oppressed. It was clear to me that they were jockeying for status and it had nothing to do with any kind of 'social justice'.

    , @ic1000
    @Luke Lea

    The NYT Op-Ed you link, Ian Ayres' When Whites Get a Free Pass: Research Shows White Privilege is Real, has 273 comments at the moment. (That website isn't this one: it's a pain in the neck to display them all... Bug or Feature.)

    Your repost of Zoodle's remark did not appear to meet the obviously-high standards of the Times' moderators. Perhaps if you'd celebrated Progressivism's resemblance to Hinduism as further evidence of the triumphant march of vibrant diversity...

    Replies: @Priss Factor

    , @syonredux
    @Luke Lea


    As they describe in two working papers, Redzo Mujcic and Paul Frijters, economists at the University of Queensland, trained and assigned 29 young adult testers (from both genders and different ethnic groups) to board public buses in Brisbane and insert an empty fare card into the bus scanner. After the scanner made a loud sound informing the driver that the card did not have enough value, the testers said, “I do not have any money, but I need to get to” a station about 1.2 miles away. (The station varied according to where the testers boarded.)

    With more than 1,500 observations, the study uncovered substantial, statistically significant race discrimination. Bus drivers were twice as willing to let white testers ride free as black testers (72 percent versus 36 percent of the time). Bus drivers showed some relative favoritism toward testers who shared their own race, but even black drivers still favored white testers over black testers (allowing free rides 83 percent versus 68 percent of the time).
     
    Who are the "black testers?" Australian Aborigines?Perhaps Melanesians?

    As for the test itself, maybe the drivers are more reluctant to let the "black" passengers on without paying because "blacks" are more likely to be pulling a scam?

    Replies: @Bill

  31. @Jean Cocteausten
    This gets to the central weakness of the victim game: being black, gay, etc can certainly be disadvantageous, but so can being fat, short, ugly, shy, nervous, and so on ad infinitum. Most people understand that a tall, good looking black guy will have an easier time of it than a short, white troll. That is a huge threat to the victim racket. If everyone's on the list, then nobody is.

    Replies: @Luke Lea

    Ugly people have it worst of all. They are the true untouchables. Does anyone doubt that?

  32. >>>Bullying may suck for everyone,

    Are “suck” metaphors really how “professional homosexualists” want to write?

  33. Jack Hanson says:

    It really is amazing how being gay went from being a choice to this genetic can never change ever sort of thing based off one identical twins study that has never been reproduced successfully.

    If there’s a narrative to fire up, its that being gay is a choice, like getting your ears pierced or a forehead tattoo, and not deserving of special victim status.

  34. Priss Factor [AKA "K. Arujo"] says:

    The real victims are not straight weird kids but straight normal kids who are being censored and blacklisted for expressing their normal views against the dogma pushed by the homo cabal.

    But who speaks up for the straight normal kids and people?

    In Washington, a flower shop has been attacked for refusing to decorate a ‘gay wedding’.

    Where is the GOP on this? Where are the conservatives?

    There is oppression and there is non-resistance against oppression. American Conservatives, by not resisting the homo cabal, are essentially aiding and abetting the sick agenda to remake American society.
    It’s not good enough for American Conservatives to say, “I didn’t push it”. If you don’t push back against it, then you’re just a fifth columnist whether you think of yourself as one or not.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/19/us-usa-washington-gaymarriage-idUSKBN0LN0B520150219

    It’s bad enough that ‘gay marriage’ has desecrated marriage. But now, the government is forcing everyone to participate in promoting this filth.
    But where are the Cons on this?
    And how come no one mentions that the main supporters/backers/enablers of the homo agenda have been the Jewish elites?
    But then, the GOP is the shit party that would have us believe that Obama is a stealth Muslim out to be hurt Jews when he’s been the product of Jewish power.
    Jews give us Obama, but American Conservatives beg Jews for the permission to protect them from Obama. Surreal. Jews must be cracking up at Cons who are either dumb or craven.

    Homo agenda is the aristocratization of leftism that is no longer any meaningful kind of leftism.

  35. @L7's
    Sounds like a silly question but I've never heard an explanation of why gay males seem to lisp more often.is it an affectation or a real thing?

    Replies: @keypusher, @donut, @Reg Cæsar

    I suspect it’s an affectation, and not a very common one. I know a lot of gay men and none of them have a lisp.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @keypusher


    I suspect it’s an affectation, and not a very common one. I know a lot of gay men and none of them have a lisp.
     
    I don't know.A lot of Gay men want to get rid of it:

    http://www.fastcocreate.com/3038409/do-i-sound-gay-explores-the-linguistic-and-cultural-roots-of-the-gay-voice

    http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201005/bob-corff-gay-voice-coach

    Frankly, when something is that prevalent, I do tend to wonder about a genetic component

    Replies: @Anonymous, @keypusher, @e

  36. I always read cis as Commonwealth of Independent States. I still don’t know what it means with respect to fagginess and I don’t care enough to Google it.

    • Replies: @Danindc
    @Jeff Albertson

    Ha- don't do it Jeff. Don't give them the fn satisfaction. I know how you feel.

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Jeff Albertson

    Dear Comic Book Guy,

    Cis- is simply the antonym of trans-.

    In other words, a cis-gendered man is someone with a penis who identifies as a man.

  37. @Luke Lea
    @Zoodles

    [email protected] Zoodles - I took the liberty of posting your comment on the NYT. Hope you don't mind.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/opinion/research-shows-white-privilege-is-real.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region&region=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region

    Replies: @Zoodles, @ic1000, @syonredux

    Don’t mind at all.

    I got this idea while reading two individuals arguing about who got to be the Most Oppressed. It was clear to me that they were jockeying for status and it had nothing to do with any kind of ‘social justice’.

  38. @Luke Lea
    @Zoodles

    [email protected] Zoodles - I took the liberty of posting your comment on the NYT. Hope you don't mind.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/opinion/research-shows-white-privilege-is-real.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region&region=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region

    Replies: @Zoodles, @ic1000, @syonredux

    The NYT Op-Ed you link, Ian Ayres’ When Whites Get a Free Pass: Research Shows White Privilege is Real, has 273 comments at the moment. (That website isn’t this one: it’s a pain in the neck to display them all… Bug or Feature.)

    Your repost of Zoodle’s remark did not appear to meet the obviously-high standards of the Times’ moderators. Perhaps if you’d celebrated Progressivism’s resemblance to Hinduism as further evidence of the triumphant march of vibrant diversity…

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    @ic1000

    "When Whites Get a Free Pass: Research Shows White Privilege is Real"

    Okay, if we say 'white privilege' is real, how about we also say 'black violence' is real.

    But.. we are told we must judge blacks as individuals...
    but we should judge whites as a group.

    So, if some blacks commit crime, we mustn't blame all blacks...

    but if some whites are privileged, all whites are said to be privileged.

    It turns out many of these privileged whites are Jews and homos and they use neo-blacklisting to censor and destroy any white person who won't get with the homo agenda.

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/apple-culture-war-criminal-same-sex-marriage/

  39. @keypusher
    @L7's

    I suspect it's an affectation, and not a very common one. I know a lot of gay men and none of them have a lisp.

    Replies: @syonredux

    I suspect it’s an affectation, and not a very common one. I know a lot of gay men and none of them have a lisp.

    I don’t know.A lot of Gay men want to get rid of it:

    http://www.fastcocreate.com/3038409/do-i-sound-gay-explores-the-linguistic-and-cultural-roots-of-the-gay-voice

    http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201005/bob-corff-gay-voice-coach

    Frankly, when something is that prevalent, I do tend to wonder about a genetic component

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @syonredux

    It could be a pathogen or disorder that expresses the phenotype in the body. Like rabies making you drool, or a stroke making you slur your speech.

    , @keypusher
    @syonredux

    OK, your first link is 2 1/2 minutes long. I watched it all the way through. There may have been one or two near-lisps in there, but I'm not sure there were any. I didn't bother with the second one.

    Sounding effeminate or "prissy" is not the same thing as lisping. Tim Gunn, the Project Runway guy, is on that clip. Do you think he's lisping? If so, you and I just have completely different understandings of what a lisp is.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @e
    @syonredux

    It wouldn't likely be genetic but rather biological---speech affected by some outside agent that reached the brain.

  40. Priss Factor [AKA "K. Arujo"] says:

    Is this dorkwad and gaywad alliance even necessary when Silicon Valley is filled with the likes of Tim Cook?

    Besides, I think Harry Potter has gaywadized all the future dorkwads.

    Turing and Potter. Both Brit phenoms. It used to be the joke was 25% of British men are gay.

    http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-18/news/mn-996_1_anglo-saxon-men-gay

    And there was something always a bit tutti-fruity about British ways. Even when UK was anti-homo, certain aspects of homo-ness had infiltrated into the very fabric of British life.
    Traditional Brit cultural style was like victorian homo repression of homo-ness. Maybe aristocratic homo types wanted to suppress the more flamboyant homos with no taste.
    And the neo-homo agenda is sort of British in this way. It’s homo-ness as genteel, pro-gentrification, and middle class. In Harry Potter, some homo instructor named dumbledork runs a school.

    (How did russell and keynes get away with their homo-ness?)
    And Andrew Sullivan, the ‘con’ homo.

    What is this? The Jewish-Anglo-homo alliance?

  41. I’m not sure why they wouldn’t want to bring another fringe group into the victim coalition.

    I feel like I’m missing something here. The more groups they can convince are fringe, the bigger the coalition becomes.

    Maybe this is just some knee jerk reaction? I’m starting to think that I put more thought into this than the people who wrote those articles did.

  42. @Zoodles
    The modern left is a bit like Hinduism.

    You are born into your caste. Your caste depends on your karma. Your karma is determined by actions of your forebears. Nothing you do affects your karma..you are stuck with it for life. Now in the leftwing victim caste system there are two sorts of karma..the good sort of karma is from how much oppression your caste supposedly receives. Lets call this "victim karma". The more victim karma you have, the more inherently moral you are. You can also have negative Karma..lets call it "Privilege". The more "Privilege" you have the worse you are. Your caste is determined by the difference between the two.

    Nothing you do has any effect on your victim karma. Your caste is set at birth. A black spree shooter has more inherent moral worth than a white philanthropist due to his superior karma. If you want to improve your karma, your only hope is that you can somehow convince the priesthood that you actually belong into a different caste. So you put on a wig and call yourself trans. Or you pretend to have mental disabilities.

    Now its not enough to have a caste..you have to show your caste in order to display your victim karma. So, with the precision of a scientist enumerating a new species you display all your adjectives so people can see where your victim caste is. You aren't just a woman...you are a black cis gendered Jewish lesbian. That way you know precisely who you can feel superior too, and who you must grovel before.

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @Chang, @ladague

    nicely said

  43. @Luke Lea
    @Zoodles

    [email protected] Zoodles - I took the liberty of posting your comment on the NYT. Hope you don't mind.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/opinion/research-shows-white-privilege-is-real.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region&region=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region

    Replies: @Zoodles, @ic1000, @syonredux

    As they describe in two working papers, Redzo Mujcic and Paul Frijters, economists at the University of Queensland, trained and assigned 29 young adult testers (from both genders and different ethnic groups) to board public buses in Brisbane and insert an empty fare card into the bus scanner. After the scanner made a loud sound informing the driver that the card did not have enough value, the testers said, “I do not have any money, but I need to get to” a station about 1.2 miles away. (The station varied according to where the testers boarded.)

    With more than 1,500 observations, the study uncovered substantial, statistically significant race discrimination. Bus drivers were twice as willing to let white testers ride free as black testers (72 percent versus 36 percent of the time). Bus drivers showed some relative favoritism toward testers who shared their own race, but even black drivers still favored white testers over black testers (allowing free rides 83 percent versus 68 percent of the time).

    Who are the “black testers?” Australian Aborigines?Perhaps Melanesians?

    As for the test itself, maybe the drivers are more reluctant to let the “black” passengers on without paying because “blacks” are more likely to be pulling a scam?

    • Replies: @Bill
    @syonredux


    As for the test itself, maybe the drivers are more reluctant to let the “black” passengers on without paying because “blacks” are more likely to be pulling a scam?
     
    If you're willing to ask that question in a seminar, I'd probably be willing to pay your airfare and hotel. Well, as long as you didn't tell anyone I did it. Or that you know me. And if you promise to sit far away from me in the seminar room. And not look at me. And not look at anyone else so that nobody thinks it's odd that you're not looking at me.

    The problem is, Ayers is an academic lawyer. Which means he is likely verbally facile (I don't think I've met him, so maybe not). He would just deflect it with some crap like "Yes, that's exactly what I have in mind. The bus drivers may have the perception that blacks are more likely to be scamming them. That kind of racism." This game of throwing around the word "perception" and not-so-slyly accusing your interlocutor of racism is pretty much de rigeur among the clowns doing this type of research.

    The much-remarked-upon hatred of black waiters for black diners is also racism, of course. The mere fact that blacks don't tip can't excuse waiters' assumption that blacks don't tip.
  44. Priss Factor [AKA "K. Arujo"] says:
    @ic1000
    @Luke Lea

    The NYT Op-Ed you link, Ian Ayres' When Whites Get a Free Pass: Research Shows White Privilege is Real, has 273 comments at the moment. (That website isn't this one: it's a pain in the neck to display them all... Bug or Feature.)

    Your repost of Zoodle's remark did not appear to meet the obviously-high standards of the Times' moderators. Perhaps if you'd celebrated Progressivism's resemblance to Hinduism as further evidence of the triumphant march of vibrant diversity...

    Replies: @Priss Factor

    “When Whites Get a Free Pass: Research Shows White Privilege is Real”

    Okay, if we say ‘white privilege’ is real, how about we also say ‘black violence’ is real.

    But.. we are told we must judge blacks as individuals…
    but we should judge whites as a group.

    So, if some blacks commit crime, we mustn’t blame all blacks…

    but if some whites are privileged, all whites are said to be privileged.

    It turns out many of these privileged whites are Jews and homos and they use neo-blacklisting to censor and destroy any white person who won’t get with the homo agenda.

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/apple-culture-war-criminal-same-sex-marriage/

  45. Let’s go the archives, please, before they are retconned by Ministry of Information staff and unpersons made to disappear. 1984. Apple’s iconic Superbowl commercial had just aired. People actually shop at Radio Shack. And a revolutionary little sex comedy is shattering box office expectations and lighting up the Reagan-era zeitgeist.

    I refer, of course, to REVENGE OF THE NERDS. Our cast of loveable misfits includes the stereotypical pocket protector-wearing STEM whizes, the asthmatic child prodigy, the hapless Asian foreign exchange student (“Takashi no know karate? OK, get jockstrap in face-y!”), the pothead slob sexual deviant, and other poindexters of various stripes (one of the characters is actually named Poindexter).

    But wait- what do we have here? Who is this gorgeous vision in lavendar? Why, it’s Lavar, our crew’s mincing black queen, who helps save the day after the nerds engineer a piece of equipment to match his limp-wristed throwing motion and win the campus Greek Games.

    Not only does this movie take for granted gay-nerd solidarity, it even implies nerd-bashing is akin to racial prejudice, as the only fraternity to give our hereos a chance is a historically black one.

    Obviously, such easy-going fraternization between camps cannot be let stand without further interrogation of the text, and subtext, and bodies involved, especially when one of the sides is so virulently heterosexual (has Slate/Salon used that yet, or can I trademark it?), going so far as to install peep-show cameras in a sorority house, or raping a co-ed by dressing up in a costume to impersonate her boyfriend*.

    * Which might have constituted an actual sexual crime, even in the benighted pre-Haven Monahan 80’s.

  46. I can’t believe no one’s mentioned the Geek Hierarchy chart, as a friend sent me this almost 10 years ago. Towards the very bottom of the status ladder are “furries”, nerds who apparently like to dress as anthropomorphized cute animals before engaging in sexual activity. This is followed closely by “bronies”, 20 to 30-ish old men who are obsessed by the little girl’s TV show MY LITTLE PONY. From what I can fathom, it’s not a completely sexualized thing, and not in any way a gay or trans thing, but mostly about “feelies”- grown men wanting to escape from the social, financial, and romantic pressures of manhood to immerse themselves in a cuddly, lil’ princess bedroom version of reality where everything is hugs and kisses and soft fuzzy teddybears.

    THIS is the how otherwise boringly cishet geeks get a pass to Camp Oppression- by claiming they were born ocelot, or koala, or painted mare, or else that they’re really 8 year old girls with extreme body-image dysmorphia and that your refusal to let them come to your daughter’s sleepover party is oppression- welcome to World War Tween!

  47. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Two comments/observations:

    (1) When I read the Onion headline and saw the photograph I thought they were for real. OTOH, reading the "real" news items left me with a surreal feeling. We left Kansas a long time ago.

    (2) Until reading your post I did not understand the strange portrayal of Turing in the movie. In real life Turing was an Olympic level athlete. He would have made the 1936 British Olympic track team had an acute illness not kept him from the preliminary competition. He actually got along quite well with other people and had many friends. The material about his inept social skills at Bletchley Park was unfair fantasy; just as much as the suggestion that he was a superman who built the computer, programmed it, and solved the German codes with minimal help from bumbling assistants and interfering manangers. This is pure geek fantasy-revenge-for-imagined-high-school-slights material.

    (3) In the high school food chain, academic geeks are below athletes and cheerleaders and the student politicians and those voted most likely to ____ in the yearbook. But they are way up there above most of the rest of the student body. It is their ability to intellectualize their grudges that makes them feel so put upon. They are a perfect fit for this brave new world. (BTW, I speak from experience. It was my academic geekiness that saved me from a lot of misery in HS. I used to pity the more average students who were in a constant agony of fear that they would become the next butt of the alpha males and females and with no special status to protect them. I could not fully comprehend or verbalize this situation at the time but on some level I was aware of it.)

    Replies: @Bill

    (3) In the high school food chain, academic geeks are below athletes and cheerleaders and the student politicians and those voted most likely to ____ in the yearbook. But they are way up there above most of the rest of the student body. It is their ability to intellectualize their grudges that makes them feel so put upon. They are a perfect fit for this brave new world. (BTW, I speak from experience. It was my academic geekiness that saved me from a lot of misery in HS. I used to pity the more average students who were in a constant agony of fear that they would become the next butt of the alpha males and females and with no special status to protect them. I could not fully comprehend or verbalize this situation at the time but on some level I was aware of it.)

    That’s very insightful. Deserves an orange box, IMHO.

  48. @Lot
    @Steve Sailer

    Dancing isn't all that hard with interest and practice, and another gay tendency to be interested in arty pursuits probably offsets the nerd tendencies.

    I do think, however, that all else equal, including interest and practice, gays would be worse dancers than straight men, just like they seem to be worse athletes in general.

    There's really three groups of sports, one where you have practiced and memorized movements and gays do well, like diving and figure skating, second those that require quick reactions to others' motions, like basketball, where gays do poorly, and third that involve solo physical feats like track where I'd expect gays do poorly due to lack of interest and thus the required extreme dedication. Dancing is more the first group.

    The gay correlation with left handedness, lack of athleticism, and libertarianism* I am sure of, so the others should also follow.

    *I've been told by a reliable source in a position to know that active college libertarians, and the people working for the various Koch-funded libertarian groups, are about 20% gay, so 6X overrepresented.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Bill, @anon

    Dancing isn’t all that hard with interest and practice, and another gay tendency to be interested in arty pursuits probably offsets the nerd tendencies.

    I do think, however, that all else equal, including interest and practice, gays would be worse dancers than straight men, just like they seem to be worse athletes in general.

    Everyone’s favorite gay, transvestite internet Nazi, James J. O’Meara, used to ramble on in this vein all the time over at Takimag. He even has a book about it. The near absence of straight men among dancers, figure skaters, and the like seems to be a relatively recent US-centric disease. Bad for straight men and bad for the arts. Men, however, definitely want other men to know that they are not homos. So, no dancing.

    Even nailing Jessica Lange in her prime, having a kid with her, and having three kids with a ballerina is not enough to put to rest rumors that Barishnykov is a big homo. It doesn’t help, of course, that he prances around protesting Russia’s anti-homo laws.

  49. Nerdiness, if it’s strong enough, IS a fundamental idenity. Making fun of nerds is now less frowned upon than making fun of gays. And of course nerds are a sexual minority. That Lowder guy is a jerk for denying all of that.

  50. @countenance
    No such thing as "oppression Olympics?"

    What do they think the "progressive stack" is all about?

    What is all this talk about "intersectionality" all about, but to paper over the internecine back stabbing within the coalition of the fringes?

    The only time where there's coalition building in this Star Wars bar scene is when a mulatto needs to win an election. Otherwise, it's every freak for itself.

    Replies: @Hereward

    Intersectionality is Identity Politics’ version of heraldry – a method of determining dignity and precedence among the competing victims.  A member of the diverse community who prefaces a statement with “As a differently abled transwoman of color…” is essentially displaying the quarterings of her coat-of-arms.

  51. @syonredux
    @Luke Lea


    As they describe in two working papers, Redzo Mujcic and Paul Frijters, economists at the University of Queensland, trained and assigned 29 young adult testers (from both genders and different ethnic groups) to board public buses in Brisbane and insert an empty fare card into the bus scanner. After the scanner made a loud sound informing the driver that the card did not have enough value, the testers said, “I do not have any money, but I need to get to” a station about 1.2 miles away. (The station varied according to where the testers boarded.)

    With more than 1,500 observations, the study uncovered substantial, statistically significant race discrimination. Bus drivers were twice as willing to let white testers ride free as black testers (72 percent versus 36 percent of the time). Bus drivers showed some relative favoritism toward testers who shared their own race, but even black drivers still favored white testers over black testers (allowing free rides 83 percent versus 68 percent of the time).
     
    Who are the "black testers?" Australian Aborigines?Perhaps Melanesians?

    As for the test itself, maybe the drivers are more reluctant to let the "black" passengers on without paying because "blacks" are more likely to be pulling a scam?

    Replies: @Bill

    As for the test itself, maybe the drivers are more reluctant to let the “black” passengers on without paying because “blacks” are more likely to be pulling a scam?

    If you’re willing to ask that question in a seminar, I’d probably be willing to pay your airfare and hotel. Well, as long as you didn’t tell anyone I did it. Or that you know me. And if you promise to sit far away from me in the seminar room. And not look at me. And not look at anyone else so that nobody thinks it’s odd that you’re not looking at me.

    The problem is, Ayers is an academic lawyer. Which means he is likely verbally facile (I don’t think I’ve met him, so maybe not). He would just deflect it with some crap like “Yes, that’s exactly what I have in mind. The bus drivers may have the perception that blacks are more likely to be scamming them. That kind of racism.” This game of throwing around the word “perception” and not-so-slyly accusing your interlocutor of racism is pretty much de rigeur among the clowns doing this type of research.

    The much-remarked-upon hatred of black waiters for black diners is also racism, of course. The mere fact that blacks don’t tip can’t excuse waiters’ assumption that blacks don’t tip.

  52. Gays are “libertarian” because full-blown libertarianism goes along with full-blown utilitarianism, and it preaches a free market for sex as well as for goods. Gays are libertarian for the same reason pornographers are libertarian. It allows them to do their thing.

    A lot of the weird things we see today are a consequence of the replacement (at least among the rule-makers in society) of natural law and Christian ethics with positive law and utilitarianism. Bentham – who even the Economist agrees was a grade-A psychopath – has replaced Jesus.

  53. @L7's
    Sounds like a silly question but I've never heard an explanation of why gay males seem to lisp more often.is it an affectation or a real thing?

    Replies: @keypusher, @donut, @Reg Cæsar

    In the 19th century upper class Englishmen affected to pronounce their r’s as a w . And it wasn’t just the pillow biters.

    • Replies: @keypusher
    @donut

    So did the Russian upper classes, if Tolstoy is any guide. Did this exist in other European countries? Anyone know?

  54. It’s funny, I would think those suffering most from bullying are white kids in majority-minority schools and neighborhoods.

    • Replies: @peterike
    @Dennis Dale


    It’s funny, I would think those suffering most from bullying are white kids in majority-minority schools and neighborhoods.

     

    They are. But that's not "bullying." That's "vibrant cultural self-expression" which must be encouraged. Everyone must follow their bliss, even if that means stealing whitey's lunch money every day for 12 years.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  55. @Zoodles
    The modern left is a bit like Hinduism.

    You are born into your caste. Your caste depends on your karma. Your karma is determined by actions of your forebears. Nothing you do affects your karma..you are stuck with it for life. Now in the leftwing victim caste system there are two sorts of karma..the good sort of karma is from how much oppression your caste supposedly receives. Lets call this "victim karma". The more victim karma you have, the more inherently moral you are. You can also have negative Karma..lets call it "Privilege". The more "Privilege" you have the worse you are. Your caste is determined by the difference between the two.

    Nothing you do has any effect on your victim karma. Your caste is set at birth. A black spree shooter has more inherent moral worth than a white philanthropist due to his superior karma. If you want to improve your karma, your only hope is that you can somehow convince the priesthood that you actually belong into a different caste. So you put on a wig and call yourself trans. Or you pretend to have mental disabilities.

    Now its not enough to have a caste..you have to show your caste in order to display your victim karma. So, with the precision of a scientist enumerating a new species you display all your adjectives so people can see where your victim caste is. You aren't just a woman...you are a black cis gendered Jewish lesbian. That way you know precisely who you can feel superior too, and who you must grovel before.

    Replies: @Luke Lea, @Chang, @ladague

    I disagree that the modern left is like Hinduism with castes and karma. The left is all about being an hysterical young woman who wants to know whether you really love her.

    It’s not just women, of course; this is how it works with kids. A kid will go to his mother and say, ‘Do you love me?’ and she will say ‘Yes’. Then he will say, ‘Would you love me if I made a mistake? ‘Um, yes…’ ‘Would you love me if I sort of accidentally played football in the house and broke your favourite lamp?’ What the kid means by ‘love’ here is ‘Even though I did something really stupid, will you not yell at me or take away my pocket money?’

    So it is with women, especially young women. The woman wants to know whether you really love her despite the fact that she:

    (1) Ran off with her Internet lover who turned out not to be a fabulously rich jet-setter but a Guatemalan farmer with bad breath and no money. It’s called ‘exploring her sexuality’.

    (2) Maxed out the credit card. For the 18th time, of course. That’s called ‘exploring her fiscality’.

    (3) Shaved off all her hair and had ‘Death to all Males’ tattooed on her head. This is called ‘exploring her skinality’.

    Despite all this, or anything else she cooks up, she wants, no needs, you to love her, to really, really love her. By that she means that you will never say one thing about anything she has done but to congratulate her on her ‘exploring new frontiers’. By that she means that you will not leave her. By that she means that you will keep funding her ‘little adventures’.

    If you don’t do all these things, she will hate you forever because it means that you will have never loved her, not once, and that everything you did together was a sham. It was a falsehood. It was abuse. It was rape.

    It’s all about loyalty, you see. Either you are loyal now, this time, every time, or you were never loyal, not once. That’s what the left is all about: loyalty for the sake of loyalty. Loyalty equals power, for if you are loyal to them – unconditionally loyal to them – then they have power over you.

    Now while most people go through stages where they felt like this, especially as a teenager, most people also grow out of it. You make think you are a ‘special snowflake’, but the boss in your first job will not and he won’t be shy telling you that. You may think that the world revolves around you until you are turned down for credit. You may think that everyone loves you until your true love tells you ‘goodbye’. And so on. Reality punctures your little balloon, but you survive and grow up. You learn that you are not the only one in the world and that you must make compromises. You learn to think about something other than yourself.

    The funny thing is is that the left must experience some of these things. It’s not possible that no-one on the left has never had anyone turn him down for something. So what happens? Why do these people not grow up? Why do they remain so self-absorbed?

    I am beginning to wonder whether there is some sort of genetic influence going on here. Think about it. Whites tend to mature later than blacks and so that means that certain genes do whatever it is they do at a different schedule. Suppose that there is, as usual, a range of when this maturity develops. It is possible, therefore, that some people mature too slowly. Maybe what we are seeing is genetic slow developers getting together and using the system to select for each other.

  56. @Jeff Albertson
    I always read cis as Commonwealth of Independent States. I still don't know what it means with respect to fagginess and I don't care enough to Google it.

    Replies: @Danindc, @ScarletNumber

    Ha- don’t do it Jeff. Don’t give them the fn satisfaction. I know how you feel.

  57. Sailer, do you remember the “Boy Who Would be Queen”? There are two types of gay men: the 20-30% hypomasculinized (the most feminine/least masculine of whom comprise the non-autogynephilic transsexuals). They frequently had gender dysphoria or gender atypical interests as children. These are the gay men with whom women are so comfortable. This type is over-represented in stereotypically ‘gay’ activities like figure skating or choral singing. These gay men where slaughtered by HIV when it showed up. I’m guessing they engage in anal sex less often than they used to, but maybe not. Steve’s fave, Andrew Sullivan is likely this type. Samoan fa’fafine are probably this type

    The other group of gay men are the hypermasculined 70-80% of gay men. The high-T type of gay men are pretty much invisible orientation-wise: they don’t lisp or prance/walk differently or whatever. The high-T sort of gays are basically bros who are into bros. Pretty sure this sort of gay man hits puberty pretty late: they don’t seem very masculine in high school. They’re underrepresented in sports because they’re late bloomers. They aren’t really into hanging out with chicks (or hypomasculinized gay men) because they don’t have lots of interests in common. Most insultingly, these are the Ernst Rohm types. Jason Collins is probably this type. By and large they’re oral, so STDs are pretty rare.

    If I had to guess, I’d say that the two sorts of gay dudes are pretty much mutually invisible to the other: not in the same closets years ago, and not really gelling today.

    If I had to take another guess, the first type are maybe ‘just’ accidents: something goes a little wrong with development. OTOH, fa’fafine provide childcare and waste few resources on unrelated children.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @rob

    Rob I think you're correct that there are two different types of homosexual males, perhaps with different causes. However, the distinction isn't as clear as you imply. To take your example of Andrew Sullivan, he is very gay in his voice and manner, but also had a masculine traits of extreme ambition, loudness, self-confidence, work ethic, and general will to power, all pretty far from a hair-dresser type.

    Perhaps he was a masculine type homosexual who adopted the speech and mannerisms of the feminine types out of a sense of solidarity with them.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @e
    @rob

    Did you make up those percentages (about what you call "hypo-masculinized" or "effeminate " homosexual men v. what you call "hyper-masculinized" or "high T" ones) or did Mike Bailey actually use them in that book? I ask because I've read many of Bailey's other writings on the subject and don't recall his using those numbers or anything close to them.

    BTW, while I've not read the entire book, I've read snippets, and I think it's not the "boy" but The Man Who Would Be Queen.

    Also, just for clarification's sake, serum testosterone levels don't differ for hetero v. homo men.

    Replies: @rob

    , @Bill
    @rob


    There are two types of gay men: the 20-30% hypomasculinized (the most feminine/least masculine of whom comprise the non-autogynephilic transsexuals) . . .

    The other group of gay men are the hypermasculined 70-80% of gay men.
     
    You've got the percentages backwards (and off). It's more like 90% femme and 10% butch. Bailey even has that cliche quoted in his book, the one that goes something like "Gay culture is a hundred bottoms looking for a top."

    Of course, the fact that the category "gay" is the union of two completely dissimilar types ought to be a red flag that the category "gay" is a piece of crap. That and the fact that there was no such category anywhere or anywhen prior to 19th C Europe. Those two things ought to be really, like, itchy.
  58. The general public cannot or will not deal with people with high mental ability. The evidence is pretty clear – smart people are more or less just like people with normal IQs.

    But that won’t do for drama or the popular press. For example it is easy to find plenty of articles and books that will claim that Feynman was the smartest man since Einstein. I have in fact read all of his popular books – most two or three times. I have read Gleick’s biography ‘Genius’ too. These writing contend that he was the smartest man on the planet. Personally I doubt if he was the even the smartest man in the room – his two man office. His office partner at Cal Tech was Murray Gel-Mann. He was also a Nobel prize winning physicist. I’m not qualified to judge who was smarter and who made the more profound contribution to science, but I do know for sure that Gel-Mann didn’t play the bongos. All these pop articles about Feynman avoid discussing the physics.

    Einstein we know now also nurtured his ‘wild and crazy guy’ image.

    So this year’s Oscars honor physicists and mathematicians but not for their work for their diseases and infirmities.

    TV used to do the same thing with detectives. We once had the paraplegic detective – ‘Ironside’. The incredibly old detective – ‘Barnaby Jones’. And that perennial standby the drug addict sociopath – ‘Sherlock Holmes’.

    The public can seem to warm up to a smart guy unless he has some serious defects.

  59. @Anonymous
    @Lot

    "There’s really three groups of sports, one where you have practiced and memorized movements and gays do well, like diving and figure skating ... "

    I don't think you're accurately characterizing ice skating and diving. What they require are gracefulness, flexibility and balance - traits that tend to be feminine. The fact that the movements are practiced and memorized are secondary.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Chrisnonymous

    …gracefulness, flexibility and balance – traits that tend to be feminine.

    By these standards, is there a single feminine politician in the land?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Reg Cæsar

    "By these standards, is there a single feminine politician in the land?"

    I dunno, but I would guess that being a politician generally requires a lot of what Steve might call "masculine energy".

    Replies: @Anonymous

  60. @L7's
    Sounds like a silly question but I've never heard an explanation of why gay males seem to lisp more often.is it an affectation or a real thing?

    Replies: @keypusher, @donut, @Reg Cæsar

    Sounds like a silly question but I’ve never heard an explanation of why gay males seem to lisp more often.is it an affectation or a real thing?

    It’s probably less connected to “sexuality” than to epicenity– is that a word?– or refined tastes. There are plenty of straight guys with similar sibilance, e.g., Vincent Price, Al Gore, Donovan and Al Stewart when they sing.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Reg Cæsar


    It’s probably less connected to “sexuality” than to epicenity– is that a word?– or refined tastes. There are plenty of straight guys with similar sibilance, e.g., Vincent Price, Al Gore, Donovan and Al Stewart when they sing.
     
    Not sure about Vincent Price.It seems to me that he simply has good diction.

    As for Al Gore:

    During
    the 2000 campaign, the most insightful comedians picked up on Gore’s
    persona problem. Harry
    Shearer, who provides the voices for such "Simpsons"
    characters as the evil billionaire Mr. Berns and his devoted male
    secretary Smithers,
    joked that the Vice President sounded like a "gay
    robot."

    Similarly,
    the New York Post’s "Page Six" gossip column reported,
    "Billy Crystal … noted that the sibilant serial embellisher
    [Gore] was not in the house – and took the opportunity to lambaste
    Gore’s lateral lisp. ‘What, is Al practicing sighing for his next
    debate?’ Crystal quipped. ‘Is he trying to sound more like a gay
    waiter?’"

    Camille
    Paglia psychoanalyzed (too harshly, in my judgment), "Gore isn’t
    gay, but his hothouse upbringing by his dominating parents probably
    produced his prissy, lisping Little Lord Fauntleroy persona, which
    borders on epicene." (God only knows how likely her guess is.)


    And
    Gore has
    a nearly subliminal version of that speech defect (the "lisssssssp")
    that’s much more common among gay men than among straight men, such as
    himself.

    You’ll
    recall the millions of words that right wing commentators like Jonah
    Goldberg spun out trying to explain, with little success, out why a lot
    of people found Gore disconcerting and unreal sounding. The simplest
    explanation is that the first time you hear Gore, he sound’s like he’s
    gay. But, you get used to it quickly, and forget about — which is why
    the press corps couldn’t put there finger on Gore’s problem.

    Shearer,
    a near genius at dissecting individual styles, gave me a precise description of Gore’s speaking style: "It’s not a
    lisp–as in ‘lithp.’ Rather, it’s a sibilant problem, in which the
    sibilants are pronounced in a thinner, more ‘hissy’ fashion than is
    normal among American males."

    This
    whole subject of this gay speech style is confused because we don’t have
    a good word for it. Everybody calls it a lisp, but it’s definitely not a
    lithp, it’s a lissssp. And it’s certainly not universal among male
    homosexuals, but they definitely have it more than straight men.

    A
    leading Canadian sexual orientation researcher who wishes to remain
    anonymous recalled a study in which laboratory subjects could reliably
    distinguish tape recordings of gay men and straight men reading a
    standard passage. He believes that gay men, rather than suffer from
    significant speech impediments, tend to speak with more precise
    articulation than heterosexual men do. In his career, this scholar has
    come across very few gays who substitute "th" for
    "s." Yet, he does find that some gays have a speech tendency
    that resembles Shearer’s description of Gore’s penchant for a hissy
    "s" sound. "One of the patterns of exaggerated
    articulation in the gay voice might be exaggerated "s" sounds,
    which give a hissing quality to the speech."

    Likewise,
    in 1995 Cecil Adams’ "The Straight Dope" column tackled this
    sensitive topic. "One fellow, a member of a gay chorus, wrote: ‘I
    always thought the most identifiable stereotypically gay speech
    mannerism wath not a lithp, but rather an overly ssssssibilant esssssss
    sssssound, which is the bane of gay men’s chorus conductors
    everywhere.’"

    Most
    stereotypes about gay men attribute feminine traits to them. The lisping
    cliché is odd, though, in that while many consider lisping effeminate,
    nobody consider lisping feminine. Straight women aren’t said to lisp
    more than straight men, or vice-versa. This suggests that the stereotype
    reflects empirical reality rather than a preconception.

    Evolutionary
    theorist Greg Cochran says, "No careful statistical study has been
    done (as far as I know). But my informants (trained linguists) say that
    the homosexual lisp exists in all the countries and languages they are
    familiar with – which means at this point North America, all of Europe,
    and Japan. I think it would be very interesting if someone knew of a
    country where gay men do not have this lisp – this would help us find
    out if it were a learned thing, like an accent, or an unlearned thing,
    possibly related to a biological cause of homosexuality. "

     

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/al-gore-was-quite-funny-on-saturday-night/

    Replies: @slumber_j, @e

    , @Lot
    @Reg Cæsar

    Donovan does say his 'S' long (e.g., "I'm just mad about Saffron"; "Fill me with song") but he doesn't sound gay because his delivery lacks the "pronounce every syllable precisely and with relish" style that is also associated with gay voice.

  61. @Dennis Dale
    It's funny, I would think those suffering most from bullying are white kids in majority-minority schools and neighborhoods.

    Replies: @peterike

    It’s funny, I would think those suffering most from bullying are white kids in majority-minority schools and neighborhoods.

    They are. But that’s not “bullying.” That’s “vibrant cultural self-expression” which must be encouraged. Everyone must follow their bliss, even if that means stealing whitey’s lunch money every day for 12 years.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @peterike

    Viola Davis has this amazing scene in Shanley's play "Doubt" where she explains to Catholic school principal / nun Meryl Streep that whatever Philip Seymour Hoffman's Catholic priest is doing to her gay son, it's better than what the other blacks were doing to him back in public school.

  62. @syonredux
    @keypusher


    I suspect it’s an affectation, and not a very common one. I know a lot of gay men and none of them have a lisp.
     
    I don't know.A lot of Gay men want to get rid of it:

    http://www.fastcocreate.com/3038409/do-i-sound-gay-explores-the-linguistic-and-cultural-roots-of-the-gay-voice

    http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201005/bob-corff-gay-voice-coach

    Frankly, when something is that prevalent, I do tend to wonder about a genetic component

    Replies: @Anonymous, @keypusher, @e

    It could be a pathogen or disorder that expresses the phenotype in the body. Like rabies making you drool, or a stroke making you slur your speech.

  63. @Jeff Albertson
    I always read cis as Commonwealth of Independent States. I still don't know what it means with respect to fagginess and I don't care enough to Google it.

    Replies: @Danindc, @ScarletNumber

    Dear Comic Book Guy,

    Cis- is simply the antonym of trans-.

    In other words, a cis-gendered man is someone with a penis who identifies as a man.

  64. @Reg Cæsar
    @Anonymous


    …gracefulness, flexibility and balance – traits that tend to be feminine.
     
    By these standards, is there a single feminine politician in the land?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    “By these standards, is there a single feminine politician in the land?”

    I dunno, but I would guess that being a politician generally requires a lot of what Steve might call “masculine energy”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Anonymous

    I meant to say, "what Steve calls 'masculine energy'" not, "what Steve might call 'masculine energy'" (at least IIRC that's what Steve has said in the past). :)

  65. @Anonymous
    @Gunnar von Cowtown

    "In addition to being good dancers as Steve pointed out, they were also the leads in every schoo play and witty enough to deflect most of the jocks’ rhetorical barbs."

    Right. Stan mentioned that, " ... anyone who wasn’t rich, athletic, and/or good-looking was fair game for harassment from a certain group of assholes." A trait he left off was charming, and a lot of gay guys are very charming. Charm holds a lot of value in our society, and can carry you pretty far.

    I agree with you and Stan that I have also never associated gay with bullying and was a little thrown off when that whole narrative got started.

    Replies: @ABN

    I agree with you and Stan that I have also never associated gay with bullying and was a little thrown off when that whole narrative got started.

    Maybe the incidence of it increased as homosexuality became normalized. Presumably a couple of generations ago gays would have been more likely to be closeted, or at any rate discreet and less flamboyant. But since the dominant culture now favors expressive individualism in general and homosexuality specifically, maybe gays have become more overt and conspicuous.

    Since everyone suppresses parts of their instincts or personalities sometimes in order to fit in and be well-socialized, you could argue that gay kids today are being used as ideological bait by leftists–i.e., they’re encouraged not to suppress anything, and when their peers (who are, after all, immature kids) inevitably react to this behavior, good liberals can hammer the bad kids for homophobia and thereby gain status points.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @ABN

    "Since everyone suppresses parts of their instincts or personalities sometimes in order to fit in and be well-socialized, you could argue that gay kids today are being used as ideological bait by leftists–i.e., they’re encouraged not to suppress anything, and when their peers (who are, after all, immature kids) inevitably react to this behavior, good liberals can hammer the bad kids for homophobia and thereby gain status points."

    You might be on to something. When I was growing up I wasn't aware that anyone was gay, even though a small number of boys were a bit effeminate and some girls were a bit tomboyish. But, really, no one I knew spoke in terms of people actually being gay or not gay. I think we assumed everyone was heterosexual. But of course, as at least one other person here (I think maybe Stan) has mentioned, the terms faggot and also gay were used as insults, but not in a literal manner.

  66. As far as the general matter of high-school social ostracism is concerned, I think going to a very large high school may be beneficial.

    I was a bit of an academic nerd in high school (early 2000’s), but I never felt really alienated or awkward about it. There were 1,000 kids in each class. Because of the huge size of the school, each subject had several different academic levels, and of course there were a lot of different extracurriculars and subcultures on offer. What this meant in practice was that I spent lots of time with people more or less like myself and much less time with other groups. The school was big enough for a live-and-let-live attitude among everyone. In fact, I doubt I knew more than 20% or so of my classmates.

    (Of course, it was a super-zip school, full of the kids of Ice People professionals, so that probably made it more congenial for nerdy types. As Steve likes to say, nice things are better than not-nice things.)

  67. Reminds me of the great ending in 1984’s “Revenge of the Nerds” when the nerds plead for nerd solidarity … and the entire marching band stands up. Video linked below, speech begins at 3.55.

    Gibert: I just wanted to say that I’m a nerd, and I’m here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds. I mean uh, all our lives we’ve been laughed at and made to feel inferior. And tonight, those bastards, they trashed our house. Why? Cause we’re smart? Cause we look different? Well, we’re not. I’m a nerd, and uh, I’m pretty proud of it.

    Lewis: Hi, Gilbert. I’m a nerd too. I just found that out tonight. We have news for the beautiful people. There’s a lot more of us than there are of you. I know there’s alumni here tonight. When you went to Adams you might’ve been called a spazz, or a dork, or a geek. Any of you that have ever felt stepped on, left out, picked on, put down, whether you think you’re a nerd or not, why don’t you just come down here and join us. Okay? Come on.

    Gibert: Just join us cos uh, no-one’s gonna really be free until nerd persecution ends.

  68. @syonredux
    @keypusher


    I suspect it’s an affectation, and not a very common one. I know a lot of gay men and none of them have a lisp.
     
    I don't know.A lot of Gay men want to get rid of it:

    http://www.fastcocreate.com/3038409/do-i-sound-gay-explores-the-linguistic-and-cultural-roots-of-the-gay-voice

    http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201005/bob-corff-gay-voice-coach

    Frankly, when something is that prevalent, I do tend to wonder about a genetic component

    Replies: @Anonymous, @keypusher, @e

    OK, your first link is 2 1/2 minutes long. I watched it all the way through. There may have been one or two near-lisps in there, but I’m not sure there were any. I didn’t bother with the second one.

    Sounding effeminate or “prissy” is not the same thing as lisping. Tim Gunn, the Project Runway guy, is on that clip. Do you think he’s lisping? If so, you and I just have completely different understandings of what a lisp is.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @keypusher

    2 basic kinds of lisps:

    - lithp - like Daffy Duck - not very gay

    - lisssssp - very gay

    Replies: @Lot, @syonredux

  69. OK, I looked at your second link. The voice coach, quite clearly, is not talking about lisping. He’s talking about feminine mannerisms in speech.

    Details: What are you hearing that sends off that signal?
    Bob Corff: Okay, well, let me start by telling you what it is that sounds “straight.” Straight actually turns out to be the perfect word to describe what straight guys do. It’s very straight—it has no curlicues, it has no frills or any kind of melodic turns. So they say, “Hi. How are you?” It’s simple, and the lines are very straight, instead of “Hi, how are yOOuu?” You know, women are much more melodic—their voices go up and they go down, and they even move their mouths more. There’s a lot more animation. A straight guy just goes, “Hey—this is as much energy and animation as I’m putting out for this thing.”

    Details: So it’s a monotone?
    Bob Corff: If you’re monotone, in either case, you’re going to be boring. You don’t have to be monotone. It’s more about—you can do that straight sound, but you can’t keep on starting in the same place. So if I say, “This is what I want you to do: I want you to go down the street. And then I want you to turn left,” even though my voice kept going down in this very straight, direct way, I wasn’t starting in the same place and ending in the same place on the scale.

    Details: Then there’s a narrow bandwidth of notes in a straight accent?
    Bob Corff: Right. Even in the face—the mouth is very simple, the lips stay close to the teeth, and the jaw just drops down.

    Details: And the gay accent?
    Bob Corff: There’s many levels of this. With some people there’s just this little thing that’s happening, and it’s not much, but it’s just this little tiny melody and inflection that tells you maybe there’s something there. And then there’s some people who are just [Slips into Charles Nelson Reilly mode] com-PLEEEET-ly doing THIIIIS, and you go, “Well, clearly, they’re not even attempting to . . . ”

  70. @Reg Cæsar
    @L7's


    Sounds like a silly question but I’ve never heard an explanation of why gay males seem to lisp more often.is it an affectation or a real thing?

     

    It's probably less connected to "sexuality" than to epicenity-- is that a word?-- or refined tastes. There are plenty of straight guys with similar sibilance, e.g., Vincent Price, Al Gore, Donovan and Al Stewart when they sing.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Lot

    It’s probably less connected to “sexuality” than to epicenity– is that a word?– or refined tastes. There are plenty of straight guys with similar sibilance, e.g., Vincent Price, Al Gore, Donovan and Al Stewart when they sing.

    Not sure about Vincent Price.It seems to me that he simply has good diction.

    As for Al Gore:

    During
    the 2000 campaign, the most insightful comedians picked up on Gore’s
    persona problem. Harry
    Shearer, who provides the voices for such “Simpsons”
    characters as the evil billionaire Mr. Berns and his devoted male
    secretary Smithers,
    joked that the Vice President sounded like a “gay
    robot.”

    Similarly,
    the New York Post’s “Page Six” gossip column reported,
    “Billy Crystal … noted that the sibilant serial embellisher
    [Gore] was not in the house – and took the opportunity to lambaste
    Gore’s lateral lisp. ‘What, is Al practicing sighing for his next
    debate?’ Crystal quipped. ‘Is he trying to sound more like a gay
    waiter?’”

    Camille
    Paglia psychoanalyzed (too harshly, in my judgment), “Gore isn’t
    gay, but his hothouse upbringing by his dominating parents probably
    produced his prissy, lisping Little Lord Fauntleroy persona, which
    borders on epicene.” (God only knows how likely her guess is.)

    And
    Gore has
    a nearly subliminal version of that speech defect (the “lisssssssp”)
    that’s much more common among gay men than among straight men, such as
    himself.

    You’ll
    recall the millions of words that right wing commentators like Jonah
    Goldberg spun out trying to explain, with little success, out why a lot
    of people found Gore disconcerting and unreal sounding. The simplest
    explanation is that the first time you hear Gore, he sound’s like he’s
    gay. But, you get used to it quickly, and forget about — which is why
    the press corps couldn’t put there finger on Gore’s problem.

    Shearer,
    a near genius at dissecting individual styles, gave me a precise description of Gore’s speaking style: “It’s not a
    lisp–as in ‘lithp.’ Rather, it’s a sibilant problem, in which the
    sibilants are pronounced in a thinner, more ‘hissy’ fashion than is
    normal among American males.”

    This
    whole subject of this gay speech style is confused because we don’t have
    a good word for it. Everybody calls it a lisp, but it’s definitely not a
    lithp, it’s a lissssp. And it’s certainly not universal among male
    homosexuals, but they definitely have it more than straight men.

    A
    leading Canadian sexual orientation researcher who wishes to remain
    anonymous recalled a study in which laboratory subjects could reliably
    distinguish tape recordings of gay men and straight men reading a
    standard passage. He believes that gay men, rather than suffer from
    significant speech impediments, tend to speak with more precise
    articulation than heterosexual men do. In his career, this scholar has
    come across very few gays who substitute “th” for
    “s.” Yet, he does find that some gays have a speech tendency
    that resembles Shearer’s description of Gore’s penchant for a hissy
    “s” sound. “One of the patterns of exaggerated
    articulation in the gay voice might be exaggerated “s” sounds,
    which give a hissing quality to the speech.”

    Likewise,
    in 1995 Cecil Adams’ “The Straight Dope” column tackled this
    sensitive topic. “One fellow, a member of a gay chorus, wrote: ‘I
    always thought the most identifiable stereotypically gay speech
    mannerism wath not a lithp, but rather an overly ssssssibilant esssssss
    sssssound, which is the bane of gay men’s chorus conductors
    everywhere.’”

    Most
    stereotypes about gay men attribute feminine traits to them. The lisping
    cliché is odd, though, in that while many consider lisping effeminate,
    nobody consider lisping feminine. Straight women aren’t said to lisp
    more than straight men, or vice-versa. This suggests that the stereotype
    reflects empirical reality rather than a preconception.

    Evolutionary
    theorist Greg Cochran says, “No careful statistical study has been
    done (as far as I know). But my informants (trained linguists) say that
    the homosexual lisp exists in all the countries and languages they are
    familiar with – which means at this point North America, all of Europe,
    and Japan. I think it would be very interesting if someone knew of a
    country where gay men do not have this lisp – this would help us find
    out if it were a learned thing, like an accent, or an unlearned thing,
    possibly related to a biological cause of homosexuality. ”

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/al-gore-was-quite-funny-on-saturday-night/

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    @syonredux

    Yes, it's an exaggerated sibilance rather than an actual lisp. Many women affect this as well--or at least I've always assumed it to be an affectation.

    An interesting case is the working / middle-class accent in Seville, Spain. Down there, they don't pronounce the letters C and Z with a "th" (which is how most other accents work in Castilian Spanish). Instead, they pronounce C, Z and S with the "s" sound, and all with a notable sibilance. Which is to say, most people in Seville end up sounding gay in that way.

    So there's a problem for Cochran's linguists.

    , @e
    @syonredux

    I'm no expert but this native Californian's ear occasionally has picked up on other men who speak like Gore, and they're all Southerners, but not Deep South Southerners.

    One that immediately comes to mind who is well-known is Jerry Falwell, who was from Virginia.

    That held-onto "s" coupled with a crisp articulation of other sounds results in the "prissy" sound. You'll also notice in watching them speak how they really work those lips in forming their sounds. Watching them is as fascinating as listening to them.

    I suspect it's a regional speech pattern, found among men who are educated and who took classes in public speaking (ironically).

    I've heard Southern preachers in the pulpit sound very much like those two.

  71. No one hates weird, uncool, non-conformist kids more than empowered, fascistic “gay” boys who are outraged that they haven’t yet been crowned homecoming queen.

    I have taught several students over the years who faced constant withering ridicule from the alpha queen in their high school class- whose megalomaniacal character, no longer pushed back against by hereto-normative prejudice,ran roughshod over other children with unrelenting demands for constant attention at their expense and endless drama created by compulsive injustice collecting.

    The american vision of the “gay” male youth as a vulnerable victim is utterly contradicted by the erotic history of the world and the manifold ways that intimacy and sexuality have been understood before the invention of marxist identity politics.

    The abuse of submissive homo-erotically obsessed individuals by dominant homo-erotically obsessed individuals is not only commonly understood to be the biggest problem of violence in the “gay” community (the broken rainbow) – iterations of this kind of bullying are also the fundamental fantasy that fuels “gay” life.

    Being abusively used, degraded, and discarded by a macho “straight” man is the most compelling fantasy that undergirds “gay” identity- and even though the psychological underpinnings are almost irreducibly complex and can not be productively argued here- one thing about “gays” and bullying is sure:

    They do it to themselves.

  72. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    @Steve Sailer

    Dancing isn't all that hard with interest and practice, and another gay tendency to be interested in arty pursuits probably offsets the nerd tendencies.

    I do think, however, that all else equal, including interest and practice, gays would be worse dancers than straight men, just like they seem to be worse athletes in general.

    There's really three groups of sports, one where you have practiced and memorized movements and gays do well, like diving and figure skating, second those that require quick reactions to others' motions, like basketball, where gays do poorly, and third that involve solo physical feats like track where I'd expect gays do poorly due to lack of interest and thus the required extreme dedication. Dancing is more the first group.

    The gay correlation with left handedness, lack of athleticism, and libertarianism* I am sure of, so the others should also follow.

    *I've been told by a reliable source in a position to know that active college libertarians, and the people working for the various Koch-funded libertarian groups, are about 20% gay, so 6X overrepresented.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous, @Bill, @anon

    A non-trivial number of gays play competitive ultimate frisbee (mild over-representation?). Some of them are damn good and very serious about it. Bring what I would call a sort of distinct gay intensity/aggression. Maybe it’s the targeted channeling of non-reproductive energy. They aren’t on the nerd spectrum at all, but probably have the higher prevalence of left-handedness. I guess they’re simply gay jocks.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @anon

    Is that the same as Frisbee golf? Whenever I've played, it has been a bunch of hippies and stoners also out playing. It is also vaguely like hunting so in rural Pennsylvania you also get some hunters doing it off season. I know nothing about people who do it competitively though.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anon

  73. The nerd-gay alliance is about 25 years old, and dates back before the rise of the new high-tech takeoff.

    Basically, adult gay males found it easier to convince teenage beta men to be “bottoms” if they appealed to their intellectual interests. So there is a very large cohort of gay men in math and computer science who encouraged other young men in math and cs that it would be more fun to be gay than to be unable to get a date. Young teenage ken wanting a mentor found their math profs intellecyualky and emotionally accessible: these profs in turn found the young men physically accessible.

    In this crowd, Turing was the uber nerd hounded to death for being gay.
    And in this crowd, the assumption is most men in math are now gay– and as gays take over the field, it will be moreso.

    This generational shift led to the big famous cs and math grad depts being very pro gay men (almost 0 dykes in such world, natch.) Google and many startups were tied into that community; being lucky enough to be rich sure didn’t hurt, and many men who were unhappily married betas found themselves enjoying crazy gay single life too.

    Chinese and Indian needs also had no way of being out of the closet at home, but were easy marks once thy were in the SF bay area.

    SF and PTown and the like basically have spent two decades telling every beta male “you aren’t a beta. You aren’t getting women because you’re gay.” The nerds are the most attrtacive of these betas.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Alice


    many men who were unhappily married betas found themselves enjoying crazy gay single life too
     
    That's not how male sexuality works Alice. A straight man may go gay in prison or a long stint at sea, while very young, or as a one-time experiment ("Once time a philosopher, twice a pervert" is how Voltaire put it). But in no event will he just decide that "hey, these gays have great parties and are a lot of fun, maybe I should become gay." If this were the case, the large number of men who women find repulsive would go gay in substantial numbers, and gays would be extremely ugly on average. Indeed, to some extent that describes gay women.

    I think the difference between prison/sea and just being a guy who is awful with women, is that in the latter case, there is at least a theoretical chance of sex with a woman, and regular social encounters with them on the street, in stores, at work, etc., and that's enough to stop a straight man from the mere thought of homosexual behavior.

  74. @keypusher
    @syonredux

    OK, your first link is 2 1/2 minutes long. I watched it all the way through. There may have been one or two near-lisps in there, but I'm not sure there were any. I didn't bother with the second one.

    Sounding effeminate or "prissy" is not the same thing as lisping. Tim Gunn, the Project Runway guy, is on that clip. Do you think he's lisping? If so, you and I just have completely different understandings of what a lisp is.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    2 basic kinds of lisps:

    – lithp – like Daffy Duck – not very gay

    – lisssssp – very gay

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Steve Sailer

    I think they both sound gay, just the sssssss version more so.

    For nature v. nurture, David Sedaris says that he had a severe lisp in elementary school and had to go to a special speech class for it, and the other boys there also seemed gay.

    I read about half his book on a long bus ride, and it was laugh out loud, almost Dave Berry good. But I couldn't really buy it, it would seem too gay.

    , @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer

    From the musical version of Mel Brooks' The Producers, perhaps the most elongated "S" in screen history (roughly 30 seconds in):


    https://vimeo.com/75092275

    Replies: @keypusher

  75. @peterike
    @Dennis Dale


    It’s funny, I would think those suffering most from bullying are white kids in majority-minority schools and neighborhoods.

     

    They are. But that's not "bullying." That's "vibrant cultural self-expression" which must be encouraged. Everyone must follow their bliss, even if that means stealing whitey's lunch money every day for 12 years.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Viola Davis has this amazing scene in Shanley’s play “Doubt” where she explains to Catholic school principal / nun Meryl Streep that whatever Philip Seymour Hoffman’s Catholic priest is doing to her gay son, it’s better than what the other blacks were doing to him back in public school.

  76. Gays should be willing to share their victim status with others.

  77. @Steve Sailer
    @keypusher

    2 basic kinds of lisps:

    - lithp - like Daffy Duck - not very gay

    - lisssssp - very gay

    Replies: @Lot, @syonredux

    I think they both sound gay, just the sssssss version more so.

    For nature v. nurture, David Sedaris says that he had a severe lisp in elementary school and had to go to a special speech class for it, and the other boys there also seemed gay.

    I read about half his book on a long bus ride, and it was laugh out loud, almost Dave Berry good. But I couldn’t really buy it, it would seem too gay.

  78. @Alice
    The nerd-gay alliance is about 25 years old, and dates back before the rise of the new high-tech takeoff.

    Basically, adult gay males found it easier to convince teenage beta men to be "bottoms" if they appealed to their intellectual interests. So there is a very large cohort of gay men in math and computer science who encouraged other young men in math and cs that it would be more fun to be gay than to be unable to get a date. Young teenage ken wanting a mentor found their math profs intellecyualky and emotionally accessible: these profs in turn found the young men physically accessible.



    In this crowd, Turing was the uber nerd hounded to death for being gay.
    And in this crowd, the assumption is most men in math are now gay-- and as gays take over the field, it will be moreso.

    This generational shift led to the big famous cs and math grad depts being very pro gay men (almost 0 dykes in such world, natch.) Google and many startups were tied into that community; being lucky enough to be rich sure didn't hurt, and many men who were unhappily married betas found themselves enjoying crazy gay single life too.

    Chinese and Indian needs also had no way of being out of the closet at home, but were easy marks once thy were in the SF bay area.

    SF and PTown and the like basically have spent two decades telling every beta male "you aren't a beta. You aren't getting women because you're gay." The nerds are the most attrtacive of these betas.

    Replies: @Lot

    many men who were unhappily married betas found themselves enjoying crazy gay single life too

    That’s not how male sexuality works Alice. A straight man may go gay in prison or a long stint at sea, while very young, or as a one-time experiment (“Once time a philosopher, twice a pervert” is how Voltaire put it). But in no event will he just decide that “hey, these gays have great parties and are a lot of fun, maybe I should become gay.” If this were the case, the large number of men who women find repulsive would go gay in substantial numbers, and gays would be extremely ugly on average. Indeed, to some extent that describes gay women.

    I think the difference between prison/sea and just being a guy who is awful with women, is that in the latter case, there is at least a theoretical chance of sex with a woman, and regular social encounters with them on the street, in stores, at work, etc., and that’s enough to stop a straight man from the mere thought of homosexual behavior.

  79. @anon
    @Lot

    A non-trivial number of gays play competitive ultimate frisbee (mild over-representation?). Some of them are damn good and very serious about it. Bring what I would call a sort of distinct gay intensity/aggression. Maybe it's the targeted channeling of non-reproductive energy. They aren't on the nerd spectrum at all, but probably have the higher prevalence of left-handedness. I guess they're simply gay jocks.

    Replies: @Lot

    Is that the same as Frisbee golf? Whenever I’ve played, it has been a bunch of hippies and stoners also out playing. It is also vaguely like hunting so in rural Pennsylvania you also get some hunters doing it off season. I know nothing about people who do it competitively though.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Lot

    Frisbee golf is big with Caltech / JPL guys.

    , @anon
    @Lot

    A bunch of Ultimate players also play disc golf, but completely different game.

    Non-contact team sport, 7 on 7, play on field similar to football field with end zones, teams score by catching disc in the endzone, teams advance disc only by passing (no running with it), a team loses possession if disc is dropped or intercepted.

    So similar to soccer in the amount of running and people scattered about. Similar to football with the passer/receivers and defenders chasing after potential receivers.

    Demographics definitely skew liberal. A Whitopia sport-- college educated, SWPLs mainly but a hippy and stoner presence as well. The competitive club teams are a bit of a different beast. All Type-A competitors with a vastly different culture.

  80. @syonredux
    @Reg Cæsar


    It’s probably less connected to “sexuality” than to epicenity– is that a word?– or refined tastes. There are plenty of straight guys with similar sibilance, e.g., Vincent Price, Al Gore, Donovan and Al Stewart when they sing.
     
    Not sure about Vincent Price.It seems to me that he simply has good diction.

    As for Al Gore:

    During
    the 2000 campaign, the most insightful comedians picked up on Gore’s
    persona problem. Harry
    Shearer, who provides the voices for such "Simpsons"
    characters as the evil billionaire Mr. Berns and his devoted male
    secretary Smithers,
    joked that the Vice President sounded like a "gay
    robot."

    Similarly,
    the New York Post’s "Page Six" gossip column reported,
    "Billy Crystal … noted that the sibilant serial embellisher
    [Gore] was not in the house – and took the opportunity to lambaste
    Gore’s lateral lisp. ‘What, is Al practicing sighing for his next
    debate?’ Crystal quipped. ‘Is he trying to sound more like a gay
    waiter?’"

    Camille
    Paglia psychoanalyzed (too harshly, in my judgment), "Gore isn’t
    gay, but his hothouse upbringing by his dominating parents probably
    produced his prissy, lisping Little Lord Fauntleroy persona, which
    borders on epicene." (God only knows how likely her guess is.)


    And
    Gore has
    a nearly subliminal version of that speech defect (the "lisssssssp")
    that’s much more common among gay men than among straight men, such as
    himself.

    You’ll
    recall the millions of words that right wing commentators like Jonah
    Goldberg spun out trying to explain, with little success, out why a lot
    of people found Gore disconcerting and unreal sounding. The simplest
    explanation is that the first time you hear Gore, he sound’s like he’s
    gay. But, you get used to it quickly, and forget about — which is why
    the press corps couldn’t put there finger on Gore’s problem.

    Shearer,
    a near genius at dissecting individual styles, gave me a precise description of Gore’s speaking style: "It’s not a
    lisp–as in ‘lithp.’ Rather, it’s a sibilant problem, in which the
    sibilants are pronounced in a thinner, more ‘hissy’ fashion than is
    normal among American males."

    This
    whole subject of this gay speech style is confused because we don’t have
    a good word for it. Everybody calls it a lisp, but it’s definitely not a
    lithp, it’s a lissssp. And it’s certainly not universal among male
    homosexuals, but they definitely have it more than straight men.

    A
    leading Canadian sexual orientation researcher who wishes to remain
    anonymous recalled a study in which laboratory subjects could reliably
    distinguish tape recordings of gay men and straight men reading a
    standard passage. He believes that gay men, rather than suffer from
    significant speech impediments, tend to speak with more precise
    articulation than heterosexual men do. In his career, this scholar has
    come across very few gays who substitute "th" for
    "s." Yet, he does find that some gays have a speech tendency
    that resembles Shearer’s description of Gore’s penchant for a hissy
    "s" sound. "One of the patterns of exaggerated
    articulation in the gay voice might be exaggerated "s" sounds,
    which give a hissing quality to the speech."

    Likewise,
    in 1995 Cecil Adams’ "The Straight Dope" column tackled this
    sensitive topic. "One fellow, a member of a gay chorus, wrote: ‘I
    always thought the most identifiable stereotypically gay speech
    mannerism wath not a lithp, but rather an overly ssssssibilant esssssss
    sssssound, which is the bane of gay men’s chorus conductors
    everywhere.’"

    Most
    stereotypes about gay men attribute feminine traits to them. The lisping
    cliché is odd, though, in that while many consider lisping effeminate,
    nobody consider lisping feminine. Straight women aren’t said to lisp
    more than straight men, or vice-versa. This suggests that the stereotype
    reflects empirical reality rather than a preconception.

    Evolutionary
    theorist Greg Cochran says, "No careful statistical study has been
    done (as far as I know). But my informants (trained linguists) say that
    the homosexual lisp exists in all the countries and languages they are
    familiar with – which means at this point North America, all of Europe,
    and Japan. I think it would be very interesting if someone knew of a
    country where gay men do not have this lisp – this would help us find
    out if it were a learned thing, like an accent, or an unlearned thing,
    possibly related to a biological cause of homosexuality. "

     

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/al-gore-was-quite-funny-on-saturday-night/

    Replies: @slumber_j, @e

    Yes, it’s an exaggerated sibilance rather than an actual lisp. Many women affect this as well–or at least I’ve always assumed it to be an affectation.

    An interesting case is the working / middle-class accent in Seville, Spain. Down there, they don’t pronounce the letters C and Z with a “th” (which is how most other accents work in Castilian Spanish). Instead, they pronounce C, Z and S with the “s” sound, and all with a notable sibilance. Which is to say, most people in Seville end up sounding gay in that way.

    So there’s a problem for Cochran’s linguists.

  81. @Steve Sailer
    @keypusher

    2 basic kinds of lisps:

    - lithp - like Daffy Duck - not very gay

    - lisssssp - very gay

    Replies: @Lot, @syonredux

    From the musical version of Mel Brooks’ The Producers, perhaps the most elongated “S” in screen history (roughly 30 seconds in):

    • Replies: @keypusher
    @syonredux

    That clip parodies (at about 4:04) another cliché -- the notion that most gay men are completely ignorant of politics and history. The director says he had no idea that the Third Reich was in Germany. I think there's something to that one. An acquaintance of mine coordinates pro bono for a large law firm, and of course a huge amount of that pro bono concerns LGBT issues. He recently told me that, before "The Imitation Game" came out, he had no idea who Alan Turing was.

  82. No one living in America, barring some Josef Fritzl-level of abuse, should consider themselves a victim…

    My two cents — I have an intense dislike of nerds and nerd culture, solidified by spending two years as a computer science major (at UM-College Park), before eventually dropping it and pursuing environmental engineering (because it seemed like the easiest engineering field). I don’t really see much overlap between nerds and gays, to be honest, except that both cultures inculcate mawkish self-pity in those who identify with them…I do have to hand it to the nerds, as they gave us the Internet, the 25 billion dollar video game industry, etc., while in the same time span gays have given the world…house music and the bottomless brunch.

    I worked through college, and for some time afterwards, as an escort and male stripper in Washington, DC. If as one commentator above suggests, there was an army of gay math/CS nerds, I must not have been their type.

    Interestingly, the club I danced at, Ziegfield/Secrets, (2004-2006) was emblematic of the gentrification of DC. It was a ROUGH location, until the property was seized by the DC city government to make way for the Nationals Park. By the time I stopped dancing in 2011, the Southwest waterfront, while not exactly ‘nice’, had improved to the point where it lacked the stomach-churning charnel-house vibe familiar to anyone who has taken a wrong turn in Baltimore, Philly, or St. Louis (you don’t get this out in LA, where even the worst areas still APPEAR nice).

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Logan Circle Dreaming

    If they're not nerds, what are the demographics of gays who are rich and/or ugly enough to need to hire an escort?

    I don't think straight nerds hire escorts too much either though. They are typically shy and undersexed, and it takes a certain bit of bravado they lack to do anything illegal (not l33t hacking 'n warez), and also a problems with short time orientation. Not many nerds go to straight strip clubs either, mostly it is 40 to 70 year old proles and uglier Mexican men.

    Replies: @Logan Circle Dreaming

  83. @Reg Cæsar
    @L7's


    Sounds like a silly question but I’ve never heard an explanation of why gay males seem to lisp more often.is it an affectation or a real thing?

     

    It's probably less connected to "sexuality" than to epicenity-- is that a word?-- or refined tastes. There are plenty of straight guys with similar sibilance, e.g., Vincent Price, Al Gore, Donovan and Al Stewart when they sing.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Lot

    Donovan does say his ‘S’ long (e.g., “I’m just mad about Saffron”; “Fill me with song”) but he doesn’t sound gay because his delivery lacks the “pronounce every syllable precisely and with relish” style that is also associated with gay voice.

  84. @Lot
    @anon

    Is that the same as Frisbee golf? Whenever I've played, it has been a bunch of hippies and stoners also out playing. It is also vaguely like hunting so in rural Pennsylvania you also get some hunters doing it off season. I know nothing about people who do it competitively though.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anon

    Frisbee golf is big with Caltech / JPL guys.

  85. @rob
    Sailer, do you remember the "Boy Who Would be Queen"? There are two types of gay men: the 20-30% hypomasculinized (the most feminine/least masculine of whom comprise the non-autogynephilic transsexuals). They frequently had gender dysphoria or gender atypical interests as children. These are the gay men with whom women are so comfortable. This type is over-represented in stereotypically 'gay' activities like figure skating or choral singing. These gay men where slaughtered by HIV when it showed up. I'm guessing they engage in anal sex less often than they used to, but maybe not. Steve's fave, Andrew Sullivan is likely this type. Samoan fa'fafine are probably this type

    The other group of gay men are the hypermasculined 70-80% of gay men. The high-T type of gay men are pretty much invisible orientation-wise: they don't lisp or prance/walk differently or whatever. The high-T sort of gays are basically bros who are into bros. Pretty sure this sort of gay man hits puberty pretty late: they don't seem very masculine in high school. They're underrepresented in sports because they're late bloomers. They aren't really into hanging out with chicks (or hypomasculinized gay men) because they don't have lots of interests in common. Most insultingly, these are the Ernst Rohm types. Jason Collins is probably this type. By and large they're oral, so STDs are pretty rare.

    If I had to guess, I'd say that the two sorts of gay dudes are pretty much mutually invisible to the other: not in the same closets years ago, and not really gelling today.

    If I had to take another guess, the first type are maybe 'just' accidents: something goes a little wrong with development. OTOH, fa'fafine provide childcare and waste few resources on unrelated children.

    Replies: @Lot, @e, @Bill

    Rob I think you’re correct that there are two different types of homosexual males, perhaps with different causes. However, the distinction isn’t as clear as you imply. To take your example of Andrew Sullivan, he is very gay in his voice and manner, but also had a masculine traits of extreme ambition, loudness, self-confidence, work ethic, and general will to power, all pretty far from a hair-dresser type.

    Perhaps he was a masculine type homosexual who adopted the speech and mannerisms of the feminine types out of a sense of solidarity with them.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Lot

    Andrew Sullivan, he is very gay in his voice and manner

    No. He's also lost most of his British accent after 30 years in the States. It was still much in evidence 18 years ago.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE49UnJiwE

  86. @Logan Circle Dreaming
    No one living in America, barring some Josef Fritzl-level of abuse, should consider themselves a victim...

    My two cents -- I have an intense dislike of nerds and nerd culture, solidified by spending two years as a computer science major (at UM-College Park), before eventually dropping it and pursuing environmental engineering (because it seemed like the easiest engineering field). I don't really see much overlap between nerds and gays, to be honest, except that both cultures inculcate mawkish self-pity in those who identify with them...I do have to hand it to the nerds, as they gave us the Internet, the 25 billion dollar video game industry, etc., while in the same time span gays have given the world...house music and the bottomless brunch.

    I worked through college, and for some time afterwards, as an escort and male stripper in Washington, DC. If as one commentator above suggests, there was an army of gay math/CS nerds, I must not have been their type.

    Interestingly, the club I danced at, Ziegfield/Secrets, (2004-2006) was emblematic of the gentrification of DC. It was a ROUGH location, until the property was seized by the DC city government to make way for the Nationals Park. By the time I stopped dancing in 2011, the Southwest waterfront, while not exactly 'nice', had improved to the point where it lacked the stomach-churning charnel-house vibe familiar to anyone who has taken a wrong turn in Baltimore, Philly, or St. Louis (you don't get this out in LA, where even the worst areas still APPEAR nice).

    Replies: @Lot

    If they’re not nerds, what are the demographics of gays who are rich and/or ugly enough to need to hire an escort?

    I don’t think straight nerds hire escorts too much either though. They are typically shy and undersexed, and it takes a certain bit of bravado they lack to do anything illegal (not l33t hacking ‘n warez), and also a problems with short time orientation. Not many nerds go to straight strip clubs either, mostly it is 40 to 70 year old proles and uglier Mexican men.

    • Replies: @Logan Circle Dreaming
    @Lot

    I'd break clients down like so:

    A third were foreigners.

    A third were older and generally unattractive. They usually wanted someone to spend the weekend with, maybe even go on a trip together, go on dates, etc. Some were certainly 'nerdy', in the sense of having IT/software careers, or a bit odd, but for those who requested the 'boyfriend experience', I never helped anyone arrange Star Trek figures or catalogue comic books. More common was to go watch a baseball game, go to the theatre, wine-tasting, art gallery.

    A third were just average guys who with very specific tastes or who were doing this as a one-off (birthday 'present').

  87. @Anonymous
    @Reg Cæsar

    "By these standards, is there a single feminine politician in the land?"

    I dunno, but I would guess that being a politician generally requires a lot of what Steve might call "masculine energy".

    Replies: @Anonymous

    I meant to say, “what Steve calls ‘masculine energy’” not, “what Steve might call ‘masculine energy’” (at least IIRC that’s what Steve has said in the past). 🙂

  88. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @ABN
    @Anonymous


    I agree with you and Stan that I have also never associated gay with bullying and was a little thrown off when that whole narrative got started.
     
    Maybe the incidence of it increased as homosexuality became normalized. Presumably a couple of generations ago gays would have been more likely to be closeted, or at any rate discreet and less flamboyant. But since the dominant culture now favors expressive individualism in general and homosexuality specifically, maybe gays have become more overt and conspicuous.

    Since everyone suppresses parts of their instincts or personalities sometimes in order to fit in and be well-socialized, you could argue that gay kids today are being used as ideological bait by leftists--i.e., they're encouraged not to suppress anything, and when their peers (who are, after all, immature kids) inevitably react to this behavior, good liberals can hammer the bad kids for homophobia and thereby gain status points.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    “Since everyone suppresses parts of their instincts or personalities sometimes in order to fit in and be well-socialized, you could argue that gay kids today are being used as ideological bait by leftists–i.e., they’re encouraged not to suppress anything, and when their peers (who are, after all, immature kids) inevitably react to this behavior, good liberals can hammer the bad kids for homophobia and thereby gain status points.”

    You might be on to something. When I was growing up I wasn’t aware that anyone was gay, even though a small number of boys were a bit effeminate and some girls were a bit tomboyish. But, really, no one I knew spoke in terms of people actually being gay or not gay. I think we assumed everyone was heterosexual. But of course, as at least one other person here (I think maybe Stan) has mentioned, the terms faggot and also gay were used as insults, but not in a literal manner.

  89. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A theory I came up with (based on nothing but my own ideas – no science here!) was that gay guys might adopt their way of speaking to keep girls at bay. For instance, I was once waiting in line at a Starbucks where this really good looking guy was working. I’m sure every woman would find him attractive. However, the moment he opened his mouth it was clear he wasn’t interested in women. Had he not spoken that way, he would probably have to spend his entire day fighting off advances from women. I would think that that would get old after awhile if you have no interest in women. Also, it lets guys know where your interests lie.

  90. @Lot
    @rob

    Rob I think you're correct that there are two different types of homosexual males, perhaps with different causes. However, the distinction isn't as clear as you imply. To take your example of Andrew Sullivan, he is very gay in his voice and manner, but also had a masculine traits of extreme ambition, loudness, self-confidence, work ethic, and general will to power, all pretty far from a hair-dresser type.

    Perhaps he was a masculine type homosexual who adopted the speech and mannerisms of the feminine types out of a sense of solidarity with them.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Andrew Sullivan, he is very gay in his voice and manner

    No. He’s also lost most of his British accent after 30 years in the States. It was still much in evidence 18 years ago.

  91. @Lot
    @Logan Circle Dreaming

    If they're not nerds, what are the demographics of gays who are rich and/or ugly enough to need to hire an escort?

    I don't think straight nerds hire escorts too much either though. They are typically shy and undersexed, and it takes a certain bit of bravado they lack to do anything illegal (not l33t hacking 'n warez), and also a problems with short time orientation. Not many nerds go to straight strip clubs either, mostly it is 40 to 70 year old proles and uglier Mexican men.

    Replies: @Logan Circle Dreaming

    I’d break clients down like so:

    A third were foreigners.

    A third were older and generally unattractive. They usually wanted someone to spend the weekend with, maybe even go on a trip together, go on dates, etc. Some were certainly ‘nerdy’, in the sense of having IT/software careers, or a bit odd, but for those who requested the ‘boyfriend experience’, I never helped anyone arrange Star Trek figures or catalogue comic books. More common was to go watch a baseball game, go to the theatre, wine-tasting, art gallery.

    A third were just average guys who with very specific tastes or who were doing this as a one-off (birthday ‘present’).

  92. anon • Disclaimer says:

    In my high school (Class of ’95!) the gays were popular with 100% of the girls and a respectable plurality of the guys. The geeks were ostracized and bullied by both. But it’s nice to hear that the gays still think they win the gold medal in the Oppression Olympics. Of course, whatever social friction they might think they experience by virtue of being gay can be eliminated by Not Telling People They Are Gay. I am quite confident geeks would love it if they could avail themselves of the same luxury.

  93. There should be an identity politics Pokemon card game with assorted designated oppressed groups complete with their points ranking. The new game could be called Victimon.

    “Start your Victimon card collection today! Buy ’em, trade ’em, collect ’em all!”

    • Replies: @ABN
    @Oswald Spengler

    Ask and ye shall receive.

    To the tune of:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqXlSwBIHFc

    * * *

    I wanna be the most oppressed,
    A victim of the Man,
    I wanna be microaggressed
    By Haven Monahan.

    I'm transgendered, gay, and black,
    Latino, overweight,
    Leading the progressive stack
    Against the white man's hate.

    Victimon!
    [Gonna bitch the most,]
    'Cause I see
    Intersectionality.
    Victimon!
    Check your privelige here,
    'Cause I'm colored and I'm queer.

    Victimon!
    [On my Tumblr,]
    I'm center-stage.
    Go check out my Facebook page.
    Revel in my righteous rage.
    Victimon!

    Gonna bitch the most.
    Victimon!

  94. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    @anon

    Is that the same as Frisbee golf? Whenever I've played, it has been a bunch of hippies and stoners also out playing. It is also vaguely like hunting so in rural Pennsylvania you also get some hunters doing it off season. I know nothing about people who do it competitively though.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anon

    A bunch of Ultimate players also play disc golf, but completely different game.

    Non-contact team sport, 7 on 7, play on field similar to football field with end zones, teams score by catching disc in the endzone, teams advance disc only by passing (no running with it), a team loses possession if disc is dropped or intercepted.

    So similar to soccer in the amount of running and people scattered about. Similar to football with the passer/receivers and defenders chasing after potential receivers.

    Demographics definitely skew liberal. A Whitopia sport– college educated, SWPLs mainly but a hippy and stoner presence as well. The competitive club teams are a bit of a different beast. All Type-A competitors with a vastly different culture.

  95. Mst people are missing the main points. One, screenwriting s terrble becase studios hire Obamas fundraisers son. Not some guy who writes really well. Two, screenwriting and mvis are very, very gay. Far gay than the Amercan public.

  96. @syonredux
    @keypusher


    I suspect it’s an affectation, and not a very common one. I know a lot of gay men and none of them have a lisp.
     
    I don't know.A lot of Gay men want to get rid of it:

    http://www.fastcocreate.com/3038409/do-i-sound-gay-explores-the-linguistic-and-cultural-roots-of-the-gay-voice

    http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201005/bob-corff-gay-voice-coach

    Frankly, when something is that prevalent, I do tend to wonder about a genetic component

    Replies: @Anonymous, @keypusher, @e

    It wouldn’t likely be genetic but rather biological—speech affected by some outside agent that reached the brain.

  97. @rob
    Sailer, do you remember the "Boy Who Would be Queen"? There are two types of gay men: the 20-30% hypomasculinized (the most feminine/least masculine of whom comprise the non-autogynephilic transsexuals). They frequently had gender dysphoria or gender atypical interests as children. These are the gay men with whom women are so comfortable. This type is over-represented in stereotypically 'gay' activities like figure skating or choral singing. These gay men where slaughtered by HIV when it showed up. I'm guessing they engage in anal sex less often than they used to, but maybe not. Steve's fave, Andrew Sullivan is likely this type. Samoan fa'fafine are probably this type

    The other group of gay men are the hypermasculined 70-80% of gay men. The high-T type of gay men are pretty much invisible orientation-wise: they don't lisp or prance/walk differently or whatever. The high-T sort of gays are basically bros who are into bros. Pretty sure this sort of gay man hits puberty pretty late: they don't seem very masculine in high school. They're underrepresented in sports because they're late bloomers. They aren't really into hanging out with chicks (or hypomasculinized gay men) because they don't have lots of interests in common. Most insultingly, these are the Ernst Rohm types. Jason Collins is probably this type. By and large they're oral, so STDs are pretty rare.

    If I had to guess, I'd say that the two sorts of gay dudes are pretty much mutually invisible to the other: not in the same closets years ago, and not really gelling today.

    If I had to take another guess, the first type are maybe 'just' accidents: something goes a little wrong with development. OTOH, fa'fafine provide childcare and waste few resources on unrelated children.

    Replies: @Lot, @e, @Bill

    Did you make up those percentages (about what you call “hypo-masculinized” or “effeminate ” homosexual men v. what you call “hyper-masculinized” or “high T” ones) or did Mike Bailey actually use them in that book? I ask because I’ve read many of Bailey’s other writings on the subject and don’t recall his using those numbers or anything close to them.

    BTW, while I’ve not read the entire book, I’ve read snippets, and I think it’s not the “boy” but The Man Who Would Be Queen.

    Also, just for clarification’s sake, serum testosterone levels don’t differ for hetero v. homo men.

    • Replies: @rob
    @e

    e,

    I thought he used those numbers in the book, but I read it years ago, and don't have it anymore. Do you remember Bailey using any numbers for hypo vs hyper-masculinized?

  98. @syonredux
    @Reg Cæsar


    It’s probably less connected to “sexuality” than to epicenity– is that a word?– or refined tastes. There are plenty of straight guys with similar sibilance, e.g., Vincent Price, Al Gore, Donovan and Al Stewart when they sing.
     
    Not sure about Vincent Price.It seems to me that he simply has good diction.

    As for Al Gore:

    During
    the 2000 campaign, the most insightful comedians picked up on Gore’s
    persona problem. Harry
    Shearer, who provides the voices for such "Simpsons"
    characters as the evil billionaire Mr. Berns and his devoted male
    secretary Smithers,
    joked that the Vice President sounded like a "gay
    robot."

    Similarly,
    the New York Post’s "Page Six" gossip column reported,
    "Billy Crystal … noted that the sibilant serial embellisher
    [Gore] was not in the house – and took the opportunity to lambaste
    Gore’s lateral lisp. ‘What, is Al practicing sighing for his next
    debate?’ Crystal quipped. ‘Is he trying to sound more like a gay
    waiter?’"

    Camille
    Paglia psychoanalyzed (too harshly, in my judgment), "Gore isn’t
    gay, but his hothouse upbringing by his dominating parents probably
    produced his prissy, lisping Little Lord Fauntleroy persona, which
    borders on epicene." (God only knows how likely her guess is.)


    And
    Gore has
    a nearly subliminal version of that speech defect (the "lisssssssp")
    that’s much more common among gay men than among straight men, such as
    himself.

    You’ll
    recall the millions of words that right wing commentators like Jonah
    Goldberg spun out trying to explain, with little success, out why a lot
    of people found Gore disconcerting and unreal sounding. The simplest
    explanation is that the first time you hear Gore, he sound’s like he’s
    gay. But, you get used to it quickly, and forget about — which is why
    the press corps couldn’t put there finger on Gore’s problem.

    Shearer,
    a near genius at dissecting individual styles, gave me a precise description of Gore’s speaking style: "It’s not a
    lisp–as in ‘lithp.’ Rather, it’s a sibilant problem, in which the
    sibilants are pronounced in a thinner, more ‘hissy’ fashion than is
    normal among American males."

    This
    whole subject of this gay speech style is confused because we don’t have
    a good word for it. Everybody calls it a lisp, but it’s definitely not a
    lithp, it’s a lissssp. And it’s certainly not universal among male
    homosexuals, but they definitely have it more than straight men.

    A
    leading Canadian sexual orientation researcher who wishes to remain
    anonymous recalled a study in which laboratory subjects could reliably
    distinguish tape recordings of gay men and straight men reading a
    standard passage. He believes that gay men, rather than suffer from
    significant speech impediments, tend to speak with more precise
    articulation than heterosexual men do. In his career, this scholar has
    come across very few gays who substitute "th" for
    "s." Yet, he does find that some gays have a speech tendency
    that resembles Shearer’s description of Gore’s penchant for a hissy
    "s" sound. "One of the patterns of exaggerated
    articulation in the gay voice might be exaggerated "s" sounds,
    which give a hissing quality to the speech."

    Likewise,
    in 1995 Cecil Adams’ "The Straight Dope" column tackled this
    sensitive topic. "One fellow, a member of a gay chorus, wrote: ‘I
    always thought the most identifiable stereotypically gay speech
    mannerism wath not a lithp, but rather an overly ssssssibilant esssssss
    sssssound, which is the bane of gay men’s chorus conductors
    everywhere.’"

    Most
    stereotypes about gay men attribute feminine traits to them. The lisping
    cliché is odd, though, in that while many consider lisping effeminate,
    nobody consider lisping feminine. Straight women aren’t said to lisp
    more than straight men, or vice-versa. This suggests that the stereotype
    reflects empirical reality rather than a preconception.

    Evolutionary
    theorist Greg Cochran says, "No careful statistical study has been
    done (as far as I know). But my informants (trained linguists) say that
    the homosexual lisp exists in all the countries and languages they are
    familiar with – which means at this point North America, all of Europe,
    and Japan. I think it would be very interesting if someone knew of a
    country where gay men do not have this lisp – this would help us find
    out if it were a learned thing, like an accent, or an unlearned thing,
    possibly related to a biological cause of homosexuality. "

     

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/al-gore-was-quite-funny-on-saturday-night/

    Replies: @slumber_j, @e

    I’m no expert but this native Californian’s ear occasionally has picked up on other men who speak like Gore, and they’re all Southerners, but not Deep South Southerners.

    One that immediately comes to mind who is well-known is Jerry Falwell, who was from Virginia.

    That held-onto “s” coupled with a crisp articulation of other sounds results in the “prissy” sound. You’ll also notice in watching them speak how they really work those lips in forming their sounds. Watching them is as fascinating as listening to them.

    I suspect it’s a regional speech pattern, found among men who are educated and who took classes in public speaking (ironically).

    I’ve heard Southern preachers in the pulpit sound very much like those two.

  99. Somewhat off-topic, but a good article on online shaming and Reputation Management.

    http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/21/internet-shaming-lindsey-stone-jon-ronson

  100. In white high schools today, no f-ing way are out of the closet gays victims of “bullying”.
    I’ll buy that in-closet gays or ‘haven’t figured out/accepted that they were gay yet” gays might get a little bit of “bullying”, but that’s a function of them seeming weird/maladjusted/creepy not being gay. Remember in 21 jump street when Channing Tatum punches the gay kid and everyone flips out on him? That’s what really happens today, no doubt in my mind.

    In my white high school circa 2001-2005, male bullying in the TV show sense of a tough guy going up to a random nerd and shoving him into a locker (or something like that) was a total non-issue. I never saw it happen or even heard about it, not even once. However the girls were horrible, and I mean horrible, to eachother.

    There was some stuff that might have looked like bullying, but it was really “Dazed and Confused” style hazing. You would have been glad to been a victim of that, it meant the older kids knew/cared who you were. And there were guys who had grudges deliberately messing with eachother.

    There weren’t any openly gay kids in my class (that I can remember). Post- high school there’s one guy I know of who came out as a transwoman and might have even got surgery. He probably remembers being bullied in high school, even though it never happened, because he has severe mental issues. What he remembers is constantly feeling miserable, due to the severe mental issues, and obviously it must have been those evil straight kids bullying him making him feel that way.

  101. @e
    @rob

    Did you make up those percentages (about what you call "hypo-masculinized" or "effeminate " homosexual men v. what you call "hyper-masculinized" or "high T" ones) or did Mike Bailey actually use them in that book? I ask because I've read many of Bailey's other writings on the subject and don't recall his using those numbers or anything close to them.

    BTW, while I've not read the entire book, I've read snippets, and I think it's not the "boy" but The Man Who Would Be Queen.

    Also, just for clarification's sake, serum testosterone levels don't differ for hetero v. homo men.

    Replies: @rob

    e,

    I thought he used those numbers in the book, but I read it years ago, and don’t have it anymore. Do you remember Bailey using any numbers for hypo vs hyper-masculinized?

  102. When I think of a film’s depiction of the gay diction, it’s Monty Python’s Augustus/Biggus Dickus riff in The Life of Brian:

    In high school, gays will always be less oppressed than nerds; they are more socially facile and personable. They will be popular with the girls because they have some of the same interests, like fashion and catty gossip. They will be as oppressive to the nerds as any football player.

  103. @rob
    Sailer, do you remember the "Boy Who Would be Queen"? There are two types of gay men: the 20-30% hypomasculinized (the most feminine/least masculine of whom comprise the non-autogynephilic transsexuals). They frequently had gender dysphoria or gender atypical interests as children. These are the gay men with whom women are so comfortable. This type is over-represented in stereotypically 'gay' activities like figure skating or choral singing. These gay men where slaughtered by HIV when it showed up. I'm guessing they engage in anal sex less often than they used to, but maybe not. Steve's fave, Andrew Sullivan is likely this type. Samoan fa'fafine are probably this type

    The other group of gay men are the hypermasculined 70-80% of gay men. The high-T type of gay men are pretty much invisible orientation-wise: they don't lisp or prance/walk differently or whatever. The high-T sort of gays are basically bros who are into bros. Pretty sure this sort of gay man hits puberty pretty late: they don't seem very masculine in high school. They're underrepresented in sports because they're late bloomers. They aren't really into hanging out with chicks (or hypomasculinized gay men) because they don't have lots of interests in common. Most insultingly, these are the Ernst Rohm types. Jason Collins is probably this type. By and large they're oral, so STDs are pretty rare.

    If I had to guess, I'd say that the two sorts of gay dudes are pretty much mutually invisible to the other: not in the same closets years ago, and not really gelling today.

    If I had to take another guess, the first type are maybe 'just' accidents: something goes a little wrong with development. OTOH, fa'fafine provide childcare and waste few resources on unrelated children.

    Replies: @Lot, @e, @Bill

    There are two types of gay men: the 20-30% hypomasculinized (the most feminine/least masculine of whom comprise the non-autogynephilic transsexuals) . . .

    The other group of gay men are the hypermasculined 70-80% of gay men.

    You’ve got the percentages backwards (and off). It’s more like 90% femme and 10% butch. Bailey even has that cliche quoted in his book, the one that goes something like “Gay culture is a hundred bottoms looking for a top.”

    Of course, the fact that the category “gay” is the union of two completely dissimilar types ought to be a red flag that the category “gay” is a piece of crap. That and the fact that there was no such category anywhere or anywhen prior to 19th C Europe. Those two things ought to be really, like, itchy.

  104. @donut
    @L7's

    In the 19th century upper class Englishmen affected to pronounce their r's as a w . And it wasn't just the pillow biters.

    Replies: @keypusher

    So did the Russian upper classes, if Tolstoy is any guide. Did this exist in other European countries? Anyone know?

  105. @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer

    From the musical version of Mel Brooks' The Producers, perhaps the most elongated "S" in screen history (roughly 30 seconds in):


    https://vimeo.com/75092275

    Replies: @keypusher

    That clip parodies (at about 4:04) another cliché — the notion that most gay men are completely ignorant of politics and history. The director says he had no idea that the Third Reich was in Germany. I think there’s something to that one. An acquaintance of mine coordinates pro bono for a large law firm, and of course a huge amount of that pro bono concerns LGBT issues. He recently told me that, before “The Imitation Game” came out, he had no idea who Alan Turing was.

  106. How much of victimization and it’s resultant bitterness springs from how we were treated in Jr. High and HS? Reading all these comments really is making a rock solid case for Homeschooling.

    What’s a good slogan? Three generations of bullied kids is enough!

    Steve, start a homeschooling blog. you’ve got more than enough material right here from your commenters.

  107. I’m no expert but this native Californian’s ear occasionally has picked up on other men who speak like Gore, and they’re all Southerners, but not Deep South Southerners.

    One that immediately comes to mind who is well-known is Jerry Falwell, who was from Virginia.

    I’ll narrow it down even further–I think it is an epiphenomenon of men specifically from Upper South/Border State highlands/mountains. N.B. Falwell was from Lynchburg, a Blue Ridge foothills city. Also in Virginia, a perennial statewide Democrat candidate this century is Creigh Deeds, who has run for both state AG and Governor. He’s a rarity–a white liberal hillbilly (from Bath County in the mountains)–and he also has that lispy, high pitch. In his 2009 race for Governor, Sheila Johnson, the co-founder of BET and the first US black female billionaire, broke ranks and publicly endorsed (and campaigned for) his GOP opponent.

    However, Johnson made a gaffe when in one speech, she mimicked Deeds’ voice to mock him–but whether she wanted to beat him because he was a white redneck, or because she wanted to imply something else about him, remains unclear. It could have been a real “macaca” moment, but Johnson, of course, got a general pass from the media and it was forgotten after one news cycle.

    • Replies: @e
    @The Man From K Street

    I think you have the area right.

  108. Notice how “suicide attempt” becomes “precipice of suicide”!

  109. @Anonymous
    @Lot

    "There’s really three groups of sports, one where you have practiced and memorized movements and gays do well, like diving and figure skating ... "

    I don't think you're accurately characterizing ice skating and diving. What they require are gracefulness, flexibility and balance - traits that tend to be feminine. The fact that the movements are practiced and memorized are secondary.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Chrisnonymous

    I don’t think you’re accurately characterizing ice skating and diving. What they require are gracefulness, flexibility and balance – traits that tend to be feminine. The fact that the movements are practiced and memorized are secondary.

    Actually, this is a good characterization. What activities with practiced movements have in common is that you can rehearse them in your head. So all the narcissism and self-involvement can play out as productive performance-enhancement.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Chrisnonymous

    "Actually, this is a good characterization. What activities with practiced movements have in common is that you can rehearse them in your head. So all the narcissism and self-involvement can play out as productive performance-enhancement."

    This sounds interesting, but I'm not really sure exactly what you mean.

  110. @Chrisnonymous
    @Anonymous

    I don’t think you’re accurately characterizing ice skating and diving. What they require are gracefulness, flexibility and balance – traits that tend to be feminine. The fact that the movements are practiced and memorized are secondary.

    Actually, this is a good characterization. What activities with practiced movements have in common is that you can rehearse them in your head. So all the narcissism and self-involvement can play out as productive performance-enhancement.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    “Actually, this is a good characterization. What activities with practiced movements have in common is that you can rehearse them in your head. So all the narcissism and self-involvement can play out as productive performance-enhancement.”

    This sounds interesting, but I’m not really sure exactly what you mean.

  111. @The Man From K Street

    I’m no expert but this native Californian’s ear occasionally has picked up on other men who speak like Gore, and they’re all Southerners, but not Deep South Southerners.

    One that immediately comes to mind who is well-known is Jerry Falwell, who was from Virginia.
     

    I'll narrow it down even further--I think it is an epiphenomenon of men specifically from Upper South/Border State highlands/mountains. N.B. Falwell was from Lynchburg, a Blue Ridge foothills city. Also in Virginia, a perennial statewide Democrat candidate this century is Creigh Deeds, who has run for both state AG and Governor. He's a rarity--a white liberal hillbilly (from Bath County in the mountains)--and he also has that lispy, high pitch. In his 2009 race for Governor, Sheila Johnson, the co-founder of BET and the first US black female billionaire, broke ranks and publicly endorsed (and campaigned for) his GOP opponent.

    However, Johnson made a gaffe when in one speech, she mimicked Deeds' voice to mock him--but whether she wanted to beat him because he was a white redneck, or because she wanted to imply something else about him, remains unclear. It could have been a real "macaca" moment, but Johnson, of course, got a general pass from the media and it was forgotten after one news cycle.

    Replies: @e

    I think you have the area right.

  112. @Oswald Spengler
    There should be an identity politics Pokemon card game with assorted designated oppressed groups complete with their points ranking. The new game could be called Victimon.

    "Start your Victimon card collection today! Buy 'em, trade 'em, collect 'em all!"

    Replies: @ABN

    Ask and ye shall receive.

    To the tune of:

    * * *

    I wanna be the most oppressed,
    A victim of the Man,
    I wanna be microaggressed
    By Haven Monahan.

    I’m transgendered, gay, and black,
    Latino, overweight,
    Leading the progressive stack
    Against the white man’s hate.

    Victimon!
    [Gonna bitch the most,]
    ‘Cause I see
    Intersectionality.
    Victimon!
    Check your privelige here,
    ‘Cause I’m colored and I’m queer.

    Victimon!
    [On my Tumblr,]
    I’m center-stage.
    Go check out my Facebook page.
    Revel in my righteous rage.
    Victimon!

    Gonna bitch the most.
    Victimon!

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