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Ivy Leaguers Strike Back at Trump's Election by Tearing Down Portrait of Shakespeare
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From The Root:

Penn Students Remove Picture of William Shakespeare, Replace it With Audre Lorde

“We invite everyone to join us in the task of critical thinking about the changing nature of authorship, the history of language, and the political life of symbols,” Jed Esty, chair of the University of Pennsylvania’s English department, wrote.

BY: MONIQUE JUDGE
Posted: December 12, 2016

The blackest thing ever happened on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania: A group of students recently removed a picture of William Shakespeare and replaced it with one of Audre Lorde.

Monique Judge is black, so she’s allowed to say things like “The blackest thing ever happened …”

Fisher-Bennett Hall is home to Penn’s English department, and the portrait of Shakespeare has resided over the main staircase in the building for years. The English department, in an effort to represent more diversity in writing, voted a few years ago to relocate the portrait and replace it.

Despite the vote, the picture was left in the entranceway of the building. The Daily Pennsylvanian reports that on Dec. 1, after an English-department town hall meeting discussing the election, a group of students removed Shakespeare’s portrait, delivered it to the office of English professor and department Chair Jed Esty, and replaced it with a photograph of black feminist writer Audre Lorde.

Esty, who declined to be interviewed, said in an email to the Daily Pennsylvanian, “Students removed the Shakespeare portrait and delivered it to my office as a way of affirming their commitment to a more inclusive mission for the English department.”

Esty added that the image of Lorde will remain until the department reaches a decision about what to do with the space.

Katherine Kvellestad, a sophomore English major at Penn, told the paper that she commended the actions of the students and said that replacing Shakespeare’s portrait with one of Lorde sends a positive message.

“You don’t necessarily need to have a portrait of Shakespeare up,” Kvellestad said. “He’s pretty iconic.”

Her comments were echoed by junior English major Mike Benz, who told the newspaper that college curricula typically focus on European and Western ideals, leaving outside texts to be ignored or set aside.

“It is a cool example of culture jamming,” Benz said.

From Wikipedia:

Audre Lorde (/ˈɔːdri lɔːrd/; born Audrey Geraldine Lorde, February 18, 1934 – November 17, 1992) was an African American writer, feminist, womanist, lesbian, and civil rights activist. As a poet, she is best known for technical mastery and emotional expression, particularly in her poems expressing anger and outrage at civil and social injustices she observed throughout her life.[1] Her poems and prose largely dealt with issues related to civil rights, feminism, and the exploration of black female identity.

In relation to non-intersectional feminism in the United States, Lorde famously said, “Those of us who stand outside the circle of this society’s definition of acceptable women; those of us who have been forged in the crucibles of difference — those of us who are poor, who are lesbians, who are Black, who are older — know that survival is not an academic skill.

“It is learning how to take our differences and make them strengths. For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change. And this fact is only threatening to those women who still define the master’s house as their only source of support.”[2]

I’m not sure what precisely this means, other than that Audre Lorde scores more Intersectional Diversity Pokemon Points than Shakespeare does.

And that’s what really matters in Ivy League English Departments, not who is better at English:

 
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  1. With the ferocity they tore Shakespeare’s portrait down, you would have thought it was a Confederate Battle Flag.

    • Replies: @jake
    @countenance

    Same difference.

    As Sam Francis, following up on the views of many predecessors, wrote repeatedly: hatred for, even tolerance of hatred for, things Confederate and white Southern would eventually be exposed as war against all things white.

    If you lack the brains and/or balls to defend Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and Jefferson Davis; the Sons of Confederate Veterans, the United Daughters of the Confederacy, and John C. Calhoun - then you lack what it takes to defend Davy Crockett and the men who died at the Alamo, as well as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson and James K. Polk.

    When you cannot defend, and promote, Southern literature, then you help the subsequent war to remove even Shakespeare.

    Replies: @WorkingClass

    , @Neoconned
    @countenance

    The history of language eh?

    They sound almost like that lunatic who shot Rep. iffords in Tucson.

    He kept talking about the meaning of words and their political connotations

  2. So they know more about Lorde than Shakespeare. Don’t pictures in your home tend to feature people you know rather than those you don’t?

    • Replies: @Bill B.
    @anony-mouse

    They are not at home.


    Fool:

    "He's mad that trusts in the tameness of a wolf, a horse's health,
    a boy's love, or a whore's oath."

    King Lear (III, vi, 19-21)

     

    And in SJWs...
  3. I love this. The Left is actively making themselves stupid. By conscious choice. It’s like watching Luddities marauding their own countryside, burning and destroying and breaking all their advanced machinery.

    I mean removing the greatest writer in the English language for a tokenism is the height of hysteria and nonsense.

    The longer they keep up this charade that Ugly is Beautiful, Men Are Women, Gays are The Same As Straight, Blacks Are the Same As Whites, Whitey is Awful, etc., the dumber, poorer, and more miserable they will get.

    Delicious to watch. Trump is actually triggering them to hurt themselves.

    Is there anything Trump can’t do?

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    @whorefinder

    "All the world's a stage, and the men and women merely players. They have their entrances and exits, and one man in his time plays many parts."

    - William Shakespeare, As You Like It

    , @Dieter Kief
    @whorefinder


    Is there anything Trump can’t do?
     
    Bother about this Shakespearean comedy going on in Penn?

    - Maybe he even could - but I'd guess h e won't.
    , @Stephen R. Diamond
    @whorefinder


    The Left is actively making themselves stupid.
     
    Well, they've got to catch up with Trump.

    Replies: @whorefinder

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @whorefinder


    Is there anything Trump can’t do?
     
    Make Leftists think rationally. I'd put money on that.
  4. So Shakespeare wasn’t gay after all?

    Or was that the Earl of Oxford? 😉

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @Joe Magarac

    I see you're in the mood to start a fight.

    If you can tie the Shakespeare Authorship Conspiracy in with 9/11 Trooferism and Oswald Denialists, this thread will never end.

    Replies: @Lagertha

  5. Audre Lorde scores more Intersectional Diversity Pokemon Points than Shakespeare does

    In the picture the students put up she looks like a man.

    While not too feminine, in nearly all her other photos she is unambiguously female.

  6. Real Commie News: A 22 year old American guy was just sentenced to a long prison term in North Korea for tearing down a poster. No word on when Mr. Monahan will be up for parole, or if Norks even consider that.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Ivy

    Yessss, Ivy; our Ivy! These fracking, intellectually lazy & challenged students should be fighting like crazy for Otto Warmbier (warm beer, whatever...:)) who did stupid stuff (now must serve 15 years hard labor??????!!!!!) with a flag in N. Korea.

    I really hate these Ivy students of today - God, I hate these kids - thank god my sons are not like these epic assholes. They are so full of narcissism that they don't even know they are losers - haha. They don't care about rights/freedom/free speech, never did, They have proved to the public that they are ok to ignore a fellow student imprisoned in North Korea - this is national news....oh shit, I am expecting too much from Millennials.

    They don't give a shit about Otto (too Waspy/German and all that) except to talk about their petty "safe space" or "identitarian" shit. Memo to students: Shakespeare is way over your stupid ass; white or black - sorry he was smarter and cooler than you centuries ago - ouch. Go fight for Otto and get him the F out of North Korea! - prove to me that you have balls/c*nt, or are as strong as a Shield Maiden! Forget Trump; this is something all you dumb-ass, privileged Ivy League kids, could actually get your 15 minutes to prove to many that you are not the coddled, weak, spoiled and useless people everyone thinks you are! I love my sons (and their friends I know), I hate so many of their peers because they are useless and give excuses, excuses, excuses. My grandfather's day: excuses=frozen to death.

    Replies: @Cwhatfuture, @Buffalo Joe

  7. there is a whole lot of speculation as to whether or not Shakespeare wrote any of the works attributed to him anyway. Nevertheless, good move.

    Shakespeare is lauded everywhere so I don’t get the big deal. People of Color have been overlooked for far too long

    white mediocrity is deemed worth more than the real blood, sweat, and tears of People of Color

    Most People of Color agree with this action. That tells you something right there

    • Replies: @Hunsdon
    @Tiny Duck

    You have not yet acknowledged your love for the God Emperor, my tiny friend? I am sad. I am sad for you, cut off from such miraculous strength and such freedom. Please know, brother, that soon you will accept him, and your confusion will fade away. It will be a glorious day!

    Replies: @Tiny Duck

    , @PSR
    @Tiny Duck

    Problem is, you need to produce something praiseworthy before you expect to be praised. I'm thinking you don't quite comprehend that.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Tiny Duck

    "Most People of Color agree with this action. That tells you something right there."

    Why, indeed it does.

    I'm only replying to you assuming that you are an actual unironic self-caricature of a stupid lefty, rather than an ironic troll-like caricature of one. It's hard to tell sometimes.

    , @Authenticjazzman
    @Tiny Duck

    " Shakespeare is lauded everywhere so I don't get the big deal"

    You don't get the big deal because you are not endowed with the intelligence required to comprehend his works.

    "People of color have been overlooked for far too long".

    BS, I am sure that you have never heard a recording of Charlie Parker or John Coltrane in your entire existance, these being great artists which have been " Overlooked" by yourself.

    You are a charlatan, and everything you post is unadulterated nonsense.

    Authenticjazzman, "Mensa" society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

    , @Cloudbuster
    @Tiny Duck

    When a Black produces something comparable to Shakespeare, then he can receive equal reverence.

    A mediocre diversity-checkbox-er does not compare.

    I went and looked up possible worthy Black authors for this post and, wow, the pickings are pretty thin. The most cited -- Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, W.E.B. Dubois, Frederick Douglas, etc. -- are all pretty much still in the ghetto -- famous for being Black and/or writing about the Black experience.

    You're really not ready for the canon until your race is incidental to the quality of your work, not integral to it.

    Women did it -- we have many women who are simply famous for being good writers not "good female writers."

    Replies: @Johnny Smoggins

    , @Johanus de Morgateroyde
    @Tiny Duck

    Sometimes I just come here to watch Tiny Duck step on his Tiny D*ck. With cleats. :-)

    That parody of leftists is indistinguishable from actual leftists these days is quite amusing.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Tiny Duck

    As a Person of Color, I identify you as an idiot. I don't agree with this action at all - it literally is just trying to score more Diversity Points.

    The University of Beijing does not put up drawings of minority writers just because, nor does it need to. If Han Chinese writers happen to be amongst our best, so they should be honored. Nothing else needs to matter.

    , @Lagertha
    @Tiny Duck

    Don't respond to this loser. Don't respond anymore; not worth your time.

  8. Wait, I thought Shakespeare was already black. Wasn’t he a famous African-American Inventor?

    • Replies: @415 reasons
    @Anonymous

    You're thinking of George Washington who invented the peanut.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Lurker

    , @Flip
    @Anonymous

    I think that was Beethoven.

  9. • Replies: @Anon
    @Anonymous

    I wonder if the tweet was prepared and sitting on Twitter's server, though not yet published, and some of the people who run Twitter make a habit of spying on this activity (or pass info along to friends or reporters who pay for scoops) and the spies were able to react early. If you were Twitter's CEO, you could make a killing in your stock portfolio just by keeping an eye on Trump.

    , @snorlax
    @Anonymous

    Occam's Razor: Trump tweeted at 8:20, then deleted and reposted the tweet because he made a typo. (Which is something he frequently does).

    , @MikeJa
    @Anonymous

    I went to the yahoo page for LMT. At the highest resolution a single pixel is 6 minutes. Most likely it's just a graph drawing bug

    , @antipater_1
    @Anonymous

    How the hell does Putin keep doing it?!

  10. I guess these students aren’t real big fans of George Orwell…

    • Replies: @bomag
    @JohnnyD

    I was thinking that the appropriate portrait would be a boot coming down on a human face...

  11. Here’s some of a Lorde poem titled “Never to Dream of Spiders”

    Time collapses between the lips of strangers
    my days collapse into a hollow tube
    soon implodes against now
    like an iron wall
    my eyes are blocked with rubble
    a smear of perspectives
    blurring each horizon
    in the breathless precision of silence
    one word is made.

    [blah blah blah blah]

    Day three day four day ten
    the seventh step
    a veiled door leading to my golden anniversary
    flameproofed free-paper shredded
    in the teeth of a pillaging dog
    never to dream of spiders
    and when they turned the hoses upon me
    a burst of light.

    [the end]

    Here’s a poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, titled “The Children’s Hour”

    Between the dark and the daylight,
    When the night is beginning to lower,
    Comes a pause in the day’s occupations,
    That is known as the Children’s Hour.

    I hear in the chamber above me
    The patter of little feet,
    The sound of a door that is opened,
    And voices soft and sweet.

    From my study I see in the lamplight,
    Descending the broad hall stair,
    Grave Alice, and laughing Allegra,
    And Edith with golden hair.

    A whisper, and then a silence:
    Yet I know by their merry eyes
    They are plotting and planning together
    To take me by surprise.

    A sudden rush from the stairway,
    A sudden raid from the hall!
    By three doors left unguarded
    They enter my castle wall!

    They climb up into my turret
    O’er the arms and back of my chair;
    If I try to escape, they surround me;
    They seem to be everywhere.

    They almost devour me with kisses,
    Their arms about me entwine,
    Till I think of the Bishop of Bingen
    In his Mouse-Tower on the Rhine!

    Do you think, O blue-eyed banditti,
    Because you have scaled the wall,
    Such an old mustache as I am
    Is not a match for you all!

    I have you fast in my fortress,
    And will not let you depart,
    But put you down into the dungeon
    In the round-tower of my heart.

    And there will I keep you forever,
    Yes, forever and a day,
    Till the walls shall crumble to ruin,
    And moulder in dust away!

    http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/never-to-dream-of-spiders/

    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/44628

    • Replies: @Olorin
    @Mike Sylwester

    And let Bassanio reply to the former:


    So may the outward shows be least themselves:
    The world is still deceived with ornament.
    In law, what plea so tainted and corrupt,
    But, being seasoned with a gracious voice,
    Obscures the show of evil? In religion,
    What damned error, but some sober brow
    Will bless it and approve it with a text,
    Hiding the grossness with fair ornament?
    There is no vice so simple but assumes
    Some mark of virtue on his outward parts:
    How many cowards, whose hearts are all as false
    As stairs of sand, wear yet upon their chins
    The beards of Hercules and frowning Mars;
    Who, inward search'd, have livers white as milk;
    And these assume but valour's excrement
    To render them redoubted! Look on beauty,
    And you shall see 'tis purchased by the weight;
    Which therein works a miracle in nature,
    Making them lightest that wear most of it:
    So are those crisped snaky golden locks
    Which make such wanton gambols with the wind,
    Upon supposed fairness, often known
    To be the dowry of a second head,
    The skull that bred them in the sepulchre.
     
    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Mike Sylwester

    Mike, If I read and understand her words correctly, the dog ate her homework..."in the teeth of a pillaging Dog." It's not a poem but an excuse for missing a homework assignment. Must have gotten into the poetry portfolio by mistake. By the way, who penned the classic " There once was a man from Nantucket"?

  12. @Tiny Duck
    there is a whole lot of speculation as to whether or not Shakespeare wrote any of the works attributed to him anyway. Nevertheless, good move.

    Shakespeare is lauded everywhere so I don't get the big deal. People of Color have been overlooked for far too long

    white mediocrity is deemed worth more than the real blood, sweat, and tears of People of Color

    Most People of Color agree with this action. That tells you something right there

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @PSR, @Mr. Anon, @Authenticjazzman, @Cloudbuster, @Johanus de Morgateroyde, @Daniel Chieh, @Lagertha

    You have not yet acknowledged your love for the God Emperor, my tiny friend? I am sad. I am sad for you, cut off from such miraculous strength and such freedom. Please know, brother, that soon you will accept him, and your confusion will fade away. It will be a glorious day!

    • Replies: @Tiny Duck
    @Hunsdon

    Too bad he will not be president

    You know don't you that there is proof that he collided with Russia to steal election. That is treason

    Replies: @Opinionator, @anonymous, @Lurker

  13. Whatever it costs to bribe the blacks to move to their own separate homeland is worth it; no price is too high to achieve this goal.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    In all seriousness, this really is what separate countries are for. Blacks resent and are uncomfortable with white history, white culture and white heroes, much as I would feel if forced to hear rap everywhere I went, read slam poetry, and pretend I admired Mumia Abu-Jamal.

    Blacks chafe constantly under white-run society. They regard it as uptight and pretentious at best, and unjust and oppressive at worst. There are probably not two more immiscible races on Earth than African-descended and Anglo-European-descended. Unfortunately we're all trapped in a bubble of liberal delusion at this point, and the more it becomes obvious that the two cultures need to go their separate ways, the more frantic the efforts to make this misbegotten marriage work. And as if that weren't enough, we insist on importing millions more browner, cheaper, resentful people on which to lavish our affections.

    In the demotic State, this conciliatory process only goes in one direction. White high culture is disappearing, withdrawing into high-IQ redoubts. We are now in the Christmas season, and getting our perennial dose of every song and sacred hymn rendered into R & B or Gospel.

    Replies: @ice hole, @Corvinus

    , @MBlanc46
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    Indeed. But they'll never leave. For any price.

  14. @Anonymous
    Wait, I thought Shakespeare was already black. Wasn't he a famous African-American Inventor?

    Replies: @415 reasons, @Flip

    You’re thinking of George Washington who invented the peanut.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @415 reasons

    "You’re thinking of George Washington who invented the peanut."

    Didn't he also invent grills? Of course, back then, they were made of wood.

    , @Lurker
    @415 reasons

    Also peas. And nuts.

  15. @Hunsdon
    @Tiny Duck

    You have not yet acknowledged your love for the God Emperor, my tiny friend? I am sad. I am sad for you, cut off from such miraculous strength and such freedom. Please know, brother, that soon you will accept him, and your confusion will fade away. It will be a glorious day!

    Replies: @Tiny Duck

    Too bad he will not be president

    You know don’t you that there is proof that he collided with Russia to steal election. That is treason

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    @Tiny Duck

    I would be interested in reading up on the evidence of collusion. Can you provide a cite?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @anonymous
    @Tiny Duck

    Collided with Russia? Ouch, must have hurt.

    Come on, admit it, you're really one of us deplorables.

    Replies: @Kyle a

    , @Lurker
    @Tiny Duck

    What proof?

  16. The old American New York Avant-Garde Antiracist Left was smarter than today’s:

    @SFG

    @Veracitor

    They had a great culture to tear down. Now that more tearing down has gone on...

  • Roll over Ben Franklin. This could possibly cause a few more white men donating big money to schools like Penn to realize that their donations are being used against them. Although if they haven’t figured that out yet, I don’t know what it would take.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Barnard

    Yep. It's hard to believe that these idiots, er, uh, college presidents, did not notice what happened to enrollment, alumni giving, etc. at U Missouri.

    A few high profile student expulsions and faculty firings would nip this in the bud. Start with cuck Jed Esty. What kind of name is that?

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    , @Percy Gryce
    @Barnard

    That was the message of God and Man at Yale, published more than 60 years ago. We still haven't learned.

  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I don’t know if Ron Unz reads comments here, but unz.com and unz.com/isteve open in ‘Mobile.’ I’m using a laptop, but it’s not really mobile. How can I see unz.com stuff in the normal window? I’m using Windows 10 and Chrome browser. Any help would be appreciated.

    Btw, your Mobile format is not very good. If I gotta be in mobile, I don’t want a long-ass list of Unz contributors, I wanna see Sailer’s posts before all that jazz.

    Thankya kindly.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Anonymous


    I don’t know if Ron Unz reads comments here, but unz.com and unz.com/isteve open in ‘Mobile.’ I’m using a laptop, but it’s not really mobile. How can I see unz.com stuff in the normal window? I’m using Windows 10 and Chrome browser. Any help would be appreciated.

    Btw, your Mobile format is not very good. If I gotta be in mobile, I don’t want a long-ass list of Unz contributors, I wanna see Sailer’s posts before all that jazz.
     

    Normally I don't, but you got lucky this time.

    Your question is odd. The Mobile version does *not* display the list of contributors; that's one of the main distinctions from the Desktop version.

    But switching from the Detect/Default mode to either Mobile or Desktop is easy. Click "Menu" at the top control bar. Select "User Settings". Change the Version field to "Desktop" or "Mobile", then press Save/Reload.

  • Pfffffff,

    Our government just decided to remove our first prime minister from the $10 bill and replace him with a black woman who bought a ticket to the theatre in the 1940’s. You all have some catchin’ up to do.

    /sarc

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-banknote-woman-1.3885844

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    @Pontius

    I'll see you your $10 replacement, and raise you the replacement of Old Hickory on the front of the U.S. $20 bill with an illiterate Negresse.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Pontius

    Pontius, I wonder what movie was playing, golden if it was an "Amos and Andy" short.

  • I’m waiting for these children to take down every white man’s modern convenience they depend on.

    After all, things like central heat, indoor plumbing, electrification, automobiles, medicine, dentistry…

    Aww, you know what I mean.

    (The way things are going, at some point after I’m dead, they may succeed in taking it all down and starving in their own filth.)

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Buzz Mohawk

    "I’m waiting for these children to take down every white man’s modern convenience they depend on.

    After all, things like central heat, indoor plumbing, electrification, automobiles, medicine, dentistry…"

    Invented by White men? Where are you getting your hateful racist fake news from? Breitbart? All of those things were invented by Black Lesbian Muslims you racist White supremacist.

    , @Lagertha
    @Buzz Mohawk

    No, I would have killed them all off on your behalf, before that! haha! Hmmm....so many of my FB friends are really pissing me off these days; so, once again, I am checking my list, checking it twice; who I will allow to my funeral!!! We have this running joke with my cousins when we are together for 2 sublime weeks in the summer: "Fuck yeah, those people/ that woman/that jerk we all hated/that person who screwed us in business/hurt our family... is never coming to my funeral.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

  • @Tiny Duck
    there is a whole lot of speculation as to whether or not Shakespeare wrote any of the works attributed to him anyway. Nevertheless, good move.

    Shakespeare is lauded everywhere so I don't get the big deal. People of Color have been overlooked for far too long

    white mediocrity is deemed worth more than the real blood, sweat, and tears of People of Color

    Most People of Color agree with this action. That tells you something right there

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @PSR, @Mr. Anon, @Authenticjazzman, @Cloudbuster, @Johanus de Morgateroyde, @Daniel Chieh, @Lagertha

    Problem is, you need to produce something praiseworthy before you expect to be praised. I’m thinking you don’t quite comprehend that.

  • “The blackest thing ever happened on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania.”

    Indeed it did.

    Jed Esty – your heart is burst, you have lost half your soul. Even now, now, very now, an old black lesbian is replacing your white bard.

    • Replies: @Rob Lee
    @Mr. Anon

    No no NO Mr. Anon!

    You have to respond to those who still believe in the relevancy of the dead white scribblers like this:

    Jed Esty – your heart
    is burst, you have
    lost half your soul.
    Even now,
    now,
    very now,
    an old black lesbian
    is replacing
    your white bard.

    Now THAT is delivered in the truest of the blackest! (I believe "technical mastery" is how Lorde's work is described...)

    , @Olorin
    @Mr. Anon

    I've searched for a CV for Jed Esty with no luck. But from his list of courses taught at his Penn home page, I see no evidence he ever got closer to William Shakespeare than the year 1900.

    https://www.english.upenn.edu/people/jed-esty

    Note that he is the Vartan Gregorian professor of English.

    Interesting, because I don't recall Vic--president of the $3-bn Carnegie Corporation in NY--ever having anything to do with English at Penn.

    https://www.carnegie.org/about/trustees-and-staff/vartan-gregorian/

    Replies: @CCZ, @CCZ

  • “Monique Judge is black,”

    Even without the picture the name Monique is a dead giveaway that she is Black. I have never met a White woman named Monique, just like I’ve never met a Black woman named Becky.

    • Replies: @SD
    @Jefferson

    "I have never met a White woman named Monique, just like I’ve never met a Black woman named Becky."

    Among American women maybe. Monique is a fairly common name among Dutch, Belgian and French women.

    , @Chris Mallory
    @Jefferson

    Of the 4 black girls in my high school graduating class, one was named "Heather", another "Monica". A third was named "Garry Lynn", she was round as wide as she was tall. I don't remember the 4th's name.

  • • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @eah


    scholars of color
     
    Nice one, I like how they diligently signal that they aren't real scholars but "scholars of color".
  • @415 reasons
    @Anonymous

    You're thinking of George Washington who invented the peanut.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Lurker

    “You’re thinking of George Washington who invented the peanut.”

    Didn’t he also invent grills? Of course, back then, they were made of wood.

  • Damn.

    Someone should have made a musical about Shakespeare as a black rapper singing, “To be or not to be, dat be da bomb!!”

    Then the students would have spared Willy Chuckspeare and gone after Robert Frost or someone else.

  • “We invite everyone to join us in the task of critical thinking…”

    Critical thinking is quite different from systems thinking. Siskel and Ebert versus Einstein and Feynman I’d say. Thumbs up and thumbs down is the hallmark of critical thinking; “Noticing things” is a feature of systems thinking; . A mon Avis

    Also I point to The Times for this unexpected article that is right up iSteve Alley.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/three-year-olds-can-be-identified-as-criminals-of-the-future-5vwwf8lkq

    • Replies: @Trelane
    @Trelane

    Note: iSteve Alley intersects Privilege Place, not far from Race Road. You can find it off the Affordable Family Formation Cul de Sac near the Invade the World/Invite the World Freeway. Oak Hill Country Club is nearby (Jews accepted since 1972).

    , @res
    @Trelane

    Thanks for that The Times link!

    The full paper behind that The Times article is available at http://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-016-0005

    Here is an iSteve article from two years ago about the Dunedin Study: https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-dunedin-study-nature-nurture-over-40-years/

    And here is a link to James Thompson's blog (mentioned by Steve) calling out an early keynote speech about this paper: http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.com/2014/12/attending-conferences-test-of.html

    Hopefully Dr. Thompson and/or Steve will comment on the current paper.

    More about the Dunedin Study and its members: http://dunedinstudy.otago.ac.nz/studies/assessment-phases/the-study-members

    Regarding the paper:

    I thought Figure 4 did a good job of showing the dramatic cost differences between the high cost (22% of subjects) and the low cost (30%) groups.

    There is more detail in the supplementary materials PDF including this:


    The dataset reported in the current article is not publicly available due to lack of informed consent and ethical approval, but is available from the corresponding author on reasonable request by qualified scientists.
     
    Page 9 of the SM had an interesting table of social cost category burden by sex. Not surprising that men dominated (~75%) crime and injury claims, but I was a bit surprised by how much women dominated hospital stays and prescription fills (by 71/63%).

    Page 7 of the SM has details of the age 3 test(s) they used.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @guest
    @Trelane

    "Critical thinking" doesn't mean thinking like a movie critic on tv. Most commonly it means nothing, just something to say. Often it is intended to mean thinking deconstructively. As in, tearing things down.

    You know: hey-hey, ho-ho, Western Civ. gas got to go!

  • Trump derangement syndrome in action.

    • Replies: @Amasius
    @Anonymous

    I'm so sad and embarrassed I watched that guy during the Bush years.

    , @fish
    @Anonymous

    Uh oh! That's the Olberman serious face......shit's getting real now!


    https://youtu.be/GNpoJ8W53D8

    , @guest
    @Anonymous

    He'd probably be happier if POTUS declassifies nothing, because their evidence against Russia I'm guessing amounts to "Wikileaks totally feels like them, man."

    , @Hubbub
    @Anonymous

    Cry Havoc! The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming...

    Replies: @Ivy

  • What the hell did she say? That was an even tougher read than old Willy.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    @Kyle a

    "What the hell did she say?"

    "Blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black black..."

    That's as far as I got.

    Replies: @Jefferson, @Lagertha

  • @Anonymous
    Wait, I thought Shakespeare was already black. Wasn't he a famous African-American Inventor?

    Replies: @415 reasons, @Flip

    I think that was Beethoven.

  • @Ivy
    Real Commie News: A 22 year old American guy was just sentenced to a long prison term in North Korea for tearing down a poster. No word on when Mr. Monahan will be up for parole, or if Norks even consider that.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    Yessss, Ivy; our Ivy! These fracking, intellectually lazy & challenged students should be fighting like crazy for Otto Warmbier (warm beer, whatever…:)) who did stupid stuff (now must serve 15 years hard labor??????!!!!!) with a flag in N. Korea.

    I really hate these Ivy students of today – God, I hate these kids – thank god my sons are not like these epic assholes. They are so full of narcissism that they don’t even know they are losers – haha. They don’t care about rights/freedom/free speech, never did, They have proved to the public that they are ok to ignore a fellow student imprisoned in North Korea – this is national news….oh shit, I am expecting too much from Millennials.

    They don’t give a shit about Otto (too Waspy/German and all that) except to talk about their petty “safe space” or “identitarian” shit. Memo to students: Shakespeare is way over your stupid ass; white or black – sorry he was smarter and cooler than you centuries ago – ouch. Go fight for Otto and get him the F out of North Korea! – prove to me that you have balls/c*nt, or are as strong as a Shield Maiden! Forget Trump; this is something all you dumb-ass, privileged Ivy League kids, could actually get your 15 minutes to prove to many that you are not the coddled, weak, spoiled and useless people everyone thinks you are! I love my sons (and their friends I know), I hate so many of their peers because they are useless and give excuses, excuses, excuses. My grandfather’s day: excuses=frozen to death.

    • Replies: @Cwhatfuture
    @Lagertha

    And yet the Ivies are overwhelmed with applications.... Nevertheless, their students, if this is a typical example, do not seem very impressive at all.... But despite that they seem secure the plum jobs - especially in government.

    How does this happen?

    No wonder this country is so screwed up.

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Lagertha

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Lagertha

    Lagertha, Hate is such a strong word and emotion. Dial your feelings back a notch or two before it effects your mental well being. Otherwise, I like your comments.

    Replies: @Lagertha

  • Anon • Disclaimer says:

    You know… I’m for multi-culti humanities from now on.

    No more forcing non-whites to study white/Western culture and literature.

    Only white kids should be allowed to study white history, western lit, and western art, and etc.

    Let blacks only study black stuff… esp in Swahili or some African language since English is European.

    Yeah, let different races study different things. And this will be good for white power. The less the non-whites study white history and culture, the less they will be inspired by Human Achievement and Human Genius.

    It’d be like a black film student refusing to see movies made by whites and Jews and only sticking with black-made films. OK.

    Henceforth, Alt Right should lead a movement.

    NO MORE REQUIREMENT FOR NON-WHITES TO STUDY WHITE/WESTERN CULTURE,

  • @Tiny Duck
    there is a whole lot of speculation as to whether or not Shakespeare wrote any of the works attributed to him anyway. Nevertheless, good move.

    Shakespeare is lauded everywhere so I don't get the big deal. People of Color have been overlooked for far too long

    white mediocrity is deemed worth more than the real blood, sweat, and tears of People of Color

    Most People of Color agree with this action. That tells you something right there

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @PSR, @Mr. Anon, @Authenticjazzman, @Cloudbuster, @Johanus de Morgateroyde, @Daniel Chieh, @Lagertha

    “Most People of Color agree with this action. That tells you something right there.”

    Why, indeed it does.

    I’m only replying to you assuming that you are an actual unironic self-caricature of a stupid lefty, rather than an ironic troll-like caricature of one. It’s hard to tell sometimes.

  • Some words from the Bard to the Ivies about their future:

    Eyes, look your last.
    Arms, take your last embrace. And, lips, O you
    The doors of breath, seal with a righteous kiss
    A dateless bargain to engrossing death.
    Come, bitter conduct, come, unsavoury guide.
    Thou desperate pilot, now at once run on
    The dashing rocks thy seasick, weary bark.

  • @Buzz Mohawk
    I'm waiting for these children to take down every white man's modern convenience they depend on.

    After all, things like central heat, indoor plumbing, electrification, automobiles, medicine, dentistry...

    Aww, you know what I mean.

    (The way things are going, at some point after I'm dead, they may succeed in taking it all down and starving in their own filth.)

    Replies: @Jefferson, @Lagertha

    “I’m waiting for these children to take down every white man’s modern convenience they depend on.

    After all, things like central heat, indoor plumbing, electrification, automobiles, medicine, dentistry…”

    Invented by White men? Where are you getting your hateful racist fake news from? Breitbart? All of those things were invented by Black Lesbian Muslims you racist White supremacist.

  • In Shakespeare’s play Henry VIII, there is a scene where Cardinal Wolsey is trying to convince Queen Katherine, Henry’s Spanish-born first wife, to abdicate and to go live in a convent so that Henry can marry Anne Boleyn. Katherine refuses and then declares:

    Would I had never trod this English earth,
    Or felt the flatteries that grow upon it!
    Ye have angels’ faces, but heaven knows your hearts.

    What will become of me now, wretched lady!
    I am the most unhappy woman living.

    Alas, poor wenches, where are now your fortunes!
    Shipwreck’d upon a kingdom, where no pity,
    No friend, no hope; no kindred weep for me;
    Almost no grave allow’d me: like the lily,
    That once was mistress of the field and flourish’d,
    I’ll hang my head and perish.

    For comparison, here’s a poem by Audre Lorde, titled “Sisters in Arms”:

    The edge of our bed was a wide grid
    where your fifteen-year-old daughter was hanging
    gut-sprung on police wheels
    a cablegram nailed to the wood
    next to a map of the Western Reserve
    I could not return with you to bury the body
    reconstruct your nightly cardboards
    against the seeping Transvaal cold
    I could not plant the other limpet mine
    against a wall at the railroad station
    nor carry either of your souls back from the river
    in a calabash upon my head
    so I bought you a ticket to Durban
    on my American Express
    and we lay together
    in the first light of a new season.

    [blah blah blah blah]

    Mmanthatisi turns away from the cloth
    her daughters-in-law are dyeing
    the baby drools milk from her breast
    she hands him half-asleep to his sister
    dresses again for war
    knowing the men will follow.
    In the intricate Maseru twilights
    quick sad vital
    she maps the next day’s battle
    dreams of Durban sometimes
    visions the deep wry song of beach pebbles
    running after the sea.

    [the end]

    http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/sisters-in-arms/

  • Monique Judge is black, so she’s allowed to say things like “The blackest thing ever happened …”

    I don’t know. Judge looks fairly light-skinned. Is there a darker-shaded individual available to give a definitive determination as to the exact level of blackness achieved by any given event? If we’re going to burdened with a Progressive Stack, might as well put it to use.

    • Replies: @NOTA
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    We all agree it was a black day for the English department, we just disagree on how that phrase should be interpreted.

  • Anonymous [AKA "Haute Cuisine"] says:

    We’ve reached peak leftism.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Anonymous


    We’ve reached peak leftism.
     
    They're just getting warmed up.

    It won't peak until they have to come to terms with real, personal defeat.

    Replies: @Prof. Woland, @NOTA

    , @Daniel H
    @Anonymous

    >>We’ve reached peak leftism.

    Nope, there is still a long, long way down, and we will surely get there, sooner or later.

    Replies: @bomag

    , @David In TN
    @Anonymous

    "We've reached peak leftism."

    There is no bottom with these people, or no "peak," if you prefer.

    Replies: @syonredux, @David

  • Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?

    My sense is that part of the reason such hallmarks of our culture are now vulnerable (in addition, of course, to the malignant forces actually doing the attacking) is that we’ve fallen out of practice at advocating for them (that culture merits more than mere defense).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Desiderius

    Academic English departments have been the primary locus of postmodernism and deconstructionist philosophy in the US.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Desiderius

    "Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?"

    He is the most influential dramatist in the English language. His plays continue to be performed to this day in thier (mostly) original form - even as movies intended for a wider audience. And they serve as the inspiration for much popular culture, such as Broadway musicals (West Side Story, Kiss Me Kate), movies (Ran, Throne of Blood, Forbidden Planet, The Lion King, etc.).

    Shakespeare was the greatest single phrase-maker in the English language, save perhaps for the King James Bible; Quotes of his show up everywhere. There were probably half-a-dozen Star Trek episodes, or more, the titles of which were drawn from Shakespeare's works.

    Isaac Asimov (a great Shakespeare fan, and author of Asimov's Guide to Shakespeare) posited that Shakespeare's corpus of work might have served as a break on the evolution of the English language - that the importance of his work meant that English could not change so much that Shakespeare would become unintelligible or unappreciable to, at least, educated speakers.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Lagertha, @AKAHorace, @NOTA

    , @syonredux
    @Desiderius


    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?
     
    Read I Henry IV, Macbeth , King Lear, The Tempest, etc

    If that doesn't do it, nothing will.

    Replies: @Opinionator, @Desiderius, @NOTA

    , @bored identity
    @Desiderius

    'cuz he white, a'ight ?!

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @Anonymous
    @Desiderius


    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?

    My sense is that part of the reason such hallmarks of our culture are now vulnerable (in addition, of course, to the malignant forces actually doing the attacking) is that we’ve fallen out of practice at advocating for them (that culture merits more than mere defense).
     

    I will weep for thee,
    for this revolt of thine methinks
    is like another fall of man...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=680NlRI3v2I

    , @SFG
    @Desiderius

    The time is out of joint, and something is rotten in the state of Denmark; there are too many who say that there's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so, though of course there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in all their philosophy. And, indeed, they are false liars; one may smile and smile and be a villain, and the Devil hath power to assume a pleasing shape. For, when one speaks of a feminist, the lady doth protest too much, methinks.

    I'd like to get rid of them; one must be cruel only to be kind. For in my heart there is a kind of fighting that will not let me sleep. I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offences at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in.


    And that's just from Hamlet.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  • “And that’s what really matters in Ivy League English Departments, not who is better at English:”

    Ebonics is English you racist White supremacist. Ebonics is just English with a different accent just like New York English, New Jersey English, Boston English, Southern U.S English, Australian English, Kiwi English, Scottish English, Jamaican English, etc. Sorry not everybody speaks English with a neutral generic accent like you.

    • Replies: @TGGP
    @Jefferson

    A dialect like ebonics (or the regional varieties of English you listed) is not simply a different way of saying the same words, an accent. There are also different words & phrases not found in other dialects. Although Lorde doesn't appear to actually be writing in ebonics, just writing English in a way intended to repel most readers, as is common in modern poetry.

    The idea that Shakespeare is so iconic he doesn't need portraits is at least novel. Just exactly why Lorde deserves to be made more familiar to students is another story.

    I've always found that expression about the master's tools & house odd. You'd expect the tools used on the house would be exactly the sort useful for tearing it down. You're not going to tear down Trump Tower with a stone axe. And carrying the analogy into the political, revolutionaries tend to come from the same elite class they are supposed to be overthrowing.

    Replies: @Hockamaw

    , @Authenticjazzman
    @Jefferson

    " Ebonics is English you racist White supremacist."

    Yeah sure it is, only difference is that it is English reduced down to a maximum of fifty words.

    Authenticjazzman, "Mensa" Society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

    , @SFG
    @Jefferson

    Technically, it's known as AAVE (African-American Vernacular English) and has a few extra sub-tenses, or phases, useful for fine gradations of the present tense.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English#Tense_and_aspect

    Proves the time-preference HBD truism, actually. ;)

  • @Desiderius
    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?

    My sense is that part of the reason such hallmarks of our culture are now vulnerable (in addition, of course, to the malignant forces actually doing the attacking) is that we've fallen out of practice at advocating for them (that culture merits more than mere defense).

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @syonredux, @bored identity, @Anonymous, @SFG

    Academic English departments have been the primary locus of postmodernism and deconstructionist philosophy in the US.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Anonymous


    Academic English departments have been the primary locus of postmodernism and deconstructionist philosophy in the US.
     
    Indeed so.

    I contend they pushed on a door too easily opened.
  • Audre’ Lorde looks like Obama.

    • Replies: @bored identity
    @Androgynous Misogynist

    And wherever you find a bathhouse community organizer, rest assured that Jimmy Savile also can't be too far away:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audre_Lorde#/media/File:Audre_Lorde,_Meridel_Lesueur,_Adrienne_Rich_1980.jpg

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Androgynous Misogynist

    Androgynous, So maybe Obama does have a son.

  • Flush twice. It’s a long way to the English Department.

  • @Buzz Mohawk
    I'm waiting for these children to take down every white man's modern convenience they depend on.

    After all, things like central heat, indoor plumbing, electrification, automobiles, medicine, dentistry...

    Aww, you know what I mean.

    (The way things are going, at some point after I'm dead, they may succeed in taking it all down and starving in their own filth.)

    Replies: @Jefferson, @Lagertha

    No, I would have killed them all off on your behalf, before that! haha! Hmmm….so many of my FB friends are really pissing me off these days; so, once again, I am checking my list, checking it twice; who I will allow to my funeral!!! We have this running joke with my cousins when we are together for 2 sublime weeks in the summer: “Fuck yeah, those people/ that woman/that jerk we all hated/that person who screwed us in business/hurt our family… is never coming to my funeral.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Lagertha

    Lagertha, babe, don't post under the influence. This is the voice of experience talking.

    Replies: @Lagertha

  • @Trelane
    “We invite everyone to join us in the task of critical thinking..."

    Critical thinking is quite different from systems thinking. Siskel and Ebert versus Einstein and Feynman I'd say. Thumbs up and thumbs down is the hallmark of critical thinking; "Noticing things" is a feature of systems thinking; . A mon Avis

    Also I point to The Times for this unexpected article that is right up iSteve Alley.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/three-year-olds-can-be-identified-as-criminals-of-the-future-5vwwf8lkq

    Replies: @Trelane, @res, @guest

    Note: iSteve Alley intersects Privilege Place, not far from Race Road. You can find it off the Affordable Family Formation Cul de Sac near the Invade the World/Invite the World Freeway. Oak Hill Country Club is nearby (Jews accepted since 1972).

  • @Desiderius
    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?

    My sense is that part of the reason such hallmarks of our culture are now vulnerable (in addition, of course, to the malignant forces actually doing the attacking) is that we've fallen out of practice at advocating for them (that culture merits more than mere defense).

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @syonredux, @bored identity, @Anonymous, @SFG

    “Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?”

    He is the most influential dramatist in the English language. His plays continue to be performed to this day in thier (mostly) original form – even as movies intended for a wider audience. And they serve as the inspiration for much popular culture, such as Broadway musicals (West Side Story, Kiss Me Kate), movies (Ran, Throne of Blood, Forbidden Planet, The Lion King, etc.).

    Shakespeare was the greatest single phrase-maker in the English language, save perhaps for the King James Bible; Quotes of his show up everywhere. There were probably half-a-dozen Star Trek episodes, or more, the titles of which were drawn from Shakespeare’s works.

    Isaac Asimov (a great Shakespeare fan, and author of Asimov’s Guide to Shakespeare) posited that Shakespeare’s corpus of work might have served as a break on the evolution of the English language – that the importance of his work meant that English could not change so much that Shakespeare would become unintelligible or unappreciable to, at least, educated speakers.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Mr. Anon

    Thanks.

    That's a good start.

    , @Lagertha
    @Mr. Anon

    Bravo..wonderful.

    , @AKAHorace
    @Mr. Anon

    Was he the greatest phrase maker because he was William Shakespeare, or because he was writing at a time when the language was changing quickly ? Is he so much better than Marlowe and others of his time ?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cletus Rothschild, @Mr. Anon, @res

    , @NOTA
    @Mr. Anon

    Also, Shakespeare and the KJV bible have *shaped* the English language.

  • Lol, so would the “whitest thing” that could happen on campus be, say, original ground-breaking research in some cutting edge field? Or maybe even just quietly working on coursework in the library??

    Because I’d better not say what the “blackest thing” that could happen on campus brings to mind..

    I would love it if they tried something similar in a science department. It’s odd that there’s no black lesbian feminists working to use “the masters’ tools” to investigate baryonic dark matter or higher-dimensional topographical manifolds or the like..

    Come on, sassy black women! Now’s your chance finally to demonstrate that talent and creativity of yours, which is so often alleged.

    • Replies: @Daniel Williams
    @Richard S


    Lol, so would the “whitest thing” that could happen on campus be, say, original ground-breaking research in some cutting edge field? Or maybe even just quietly working on coursework in the library??
     
    I dunno...

    Reporting a violent crime in progress?
    Asking someone to turn down his stereo?
    Getting a B on a math test and not caring?

  • As a poet, she is best known for technical mastery…

    I googled this womanist’s alleged poems, and none of them appear to employ rhyme or meter. So what sort of technical mastery am I looking for?

  • While this action was childish, attention-seeking, and mildly disruptive, I hardly think that it qualifies as “the blackest thing ever.” In the contemporary context, the list of contenders for the blackest thing ever would have to be quite a bit more “transgressive” than this.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @ice hole

    Ice, To me this is disrespectful at best, but not quite as bad as tipping over gravestones. I think we will see that next, after all, monuments and statues are all ready being removed.

  • @Lagertha
    @Ivy

    Yessss, Ivy; our Ivy! These fracking, intellectually lazy & challenged students should be fighting like crazy for Otto Warmbier (warm beer, whatever...:)) who did stupid stuff (now must serve 15 years hard labor??????!!!!!) with a flag in N. Korea.

    I really hate these Ivy students of today - God, I hate these kids - thank god my sons are not like these epic assholes. They are so full of narcissism that they don't even know they are losers - haha. They don't care about rights/freedom/free speech, never did, They have proved to the public that they are ok to ignore a fellow student imprisoned in North Korea - this is national news....oh shit, I am expecting too much from Millennials.

    They don't give a shit about Otto (too Waspy/German and all that) except to talk about their petty "safe space" or "identitarian" shit. Memo to students: Shakespeare is way over your stupid ass; white or black - sorry he was smarter and cooler than you centuries ago - ouch. Go fight for Otto and get him the F out of North Korea! - prove to me that you have balls/c*nt, or are as strong as a Shield Maiden! Forget Trump; this is something all you dumb-ass, privileged Ivy League kids, could actually get your 15 minutes to prove to many that you are not the coddled, weak, spoiled and useless people everyone thinks you are! I love my sons (and their friends I know), I hate so many of their peers because they are useless and give excuses, excuses, excuses. My grandfather's day: excuses=frozen to death.

    Replies: @Cwhatfuture, @Buffalo Joe

    And yet the Ivies are overwhelmed with applications…. Nevertheless, their students, if this is a typical example, do not seem very impressive at all…. But despite that they seem secure the plum jobs – especially in government.

    How does this happen?

    No wonder this country is so screwed up.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Cwhatfuture

    What you know about the college application process/the admitted students is false. Simply false and actually, sad. The Ivies & Co. are the worst offenders...and the first to be losers big league, as the intelligentia is moving on to state "honors colleges," with no debt. The trailblazers don't care about corporate labels anymore...if they can the stepping stone degree, the BA, cheap-no debt well, yaaaa. HS students want sun, beach, riding/skiing- Rocky mountains for 4 years...not debt in some boring small, cold town with no satellites from SV. .

    Replies: @Cwhatfuture

    , @Lagertha
    @Cwhatfuture

    also, govt jobs are so over. Trump will shutter dumb-ass govt wasteful jobs.

  • @whorefinder
    I love this. The Left is actively making themselves stupid. By conscious choice. It's like watching Luddities marauding their own countryside, burning and destroying and breaking all their advanced machinery.

    I mean removing the greatest writer in the English language for a tokenism is the height of hysteria and nonsense.

    The longer they keep up this charade that Ugly is Beautiful, Men Are Women, Gays are The Same As Straight, Blacks Are the Same As Whites, Whitey is Awful, etc., the dumber, poorer, and more miserable they will get.

    Delicious to watch. Trump is actually triggering them to hurt themselves.

    Is there anything Trump can't do?

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Dieter Kief, @Stephen R. Diamond, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    “All the world’s a stage, and the men and women merely players. They have their entrances and exits, and one man in his time plays many parts.”

    – William Shakespeare, As You Like It

  • I can see why Shakespeare was replaced by Lorde.

  • Pennsylvania also offers another cool example of culture jamming ;

    Welcome to lawless Trumpmerica in which Audre Lorde’s innocent brethren gets punished only because she dindu bring into existence three guberment cheese consuming pickaninnies -Thomas, Tomalyia, and Tyreik :

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4026790/Pennsylvania-woman-collected-130-000-welfare-benefits-three-children-never-existed.html

  • @Joe Magarac
    So Shakespeare wasn't gay after all?

    Or was that the Earl of Oxford? ;)

    Replies: @whorefinder

    I see you’re in the mood to start a fight.

    If you can tie the Shakespeare Authorship Conspiracy in with 9/11 Trooferism and Oswald Denialists, this thread will never end.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @whorefinder

    eff all you guys, named Joe. My mother (late 80's now) wrote her Master's Thesis on the truthiness of Shakespeare in 1951. I will, only, if you all want it posted here (somehow..Steve & Ron will have to help me do that...so yeah, never gonna happen! - cause I'm too " out there!") about her conclusion that WS absolutely wrote his own SH*T. My mother, just lately said, "why are people still debating this? Is it so hard for people today to think that people centuries ago weren't burdened with all the stuff that we are burdened with and confounded with today?" In her own words, she said that there were always people like her son (my brother) who were hell-bent on questioning the status quo. And, Steve, Ron, many others, are the guys who have the very forums where we, the lost/jaded/tired, come and find other people talking about truthiness. Shit, I'm outta time! I'm still...aaw forget it. I have to get up early and be alert.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

  • A suitable prank at this point would be to replace the pic of Lorde with one of the eponymous young white Kiwi songstress.

    • Replies: @Johnny Smoggins
    @Dave Pinsen

    ...or Harambe if one were feeling particularly puckish.

    Replies: @frayedthread

    , @The Plutonium Kid
    @Dave Pinsen

    Or replace it with a photo of any random black woman and see if anybody even notices.

  • @Anonymous
    @Desiderius

    Academic English departments have been the primary locus of postmodernism and deconstructionist philosophy in the US.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Academic English departments have been the primary locus of postmodernism and deconstructionist philosophy in the US.

    Indeed so.

    I contend they pushed on a door too easily opened.

  • @Cwhatfuture
    @Lagertha

    And yet the Ivies are overwhelmed with applications.... Nevertheless, their students, if this is a typical example, do not seem very impressive at all.... But despite that they seem secure the plum jobs - especially in government.

    How does this happen?

    No wonder this country is so screwed up.

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Lagertha

    What you know about the college application process/the admitted students is false. Simply false and actually, sad. The Ivies & Co. are the worst offenders…and the first to be losers big league, as the intelligentia is moving on to state “honors colleges,” with no debt. The trailblazers don’t care about corporate labels anymore…if they can the stepping stone degree, the BA, cheap-no debt well, yaaaa. HS students want sun, beach, riding/skiing- Rocky mountains for 4 years…not debt in some boring small, cold town with no satellites from SV. .

    • Replies: @Cwhatfuture
    @Lagertha

    Well I can believe it as everything I see from the Ivy League (from the news) makes their students look stupid - unintelligent and badly educated. I'm sure the sciences are still very strong but the liberal arts students sound like morons. But it does make sense to me that that they still secure the best government jobs, as everything our government does seems stupid to me as well.

    Replies: @Lagertha

  • @Mr. Anon
    @Desiderius

    "Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?"

    He is the most influential dramatist in the English language. His plays continue to be performed to this day in thier (mostly) original form - even as movies intended for a wider audience. And they serve as the inspiration for much popular culture, such as Broadway musicals (West Side Story, Kiss Me Kate), movies (Ran, Throne of Blood, Forbidden Planet, The Lion King, etc.).

    Shakespeare was the greatest single phrase-maker in the English language, save perhaps for the King James Bible; Quotes of his show up everywhere. There were probably half-a-dozen Star Trek episodes, or more, the titles of which were drawn from Shakespeare's works.

    Isaac Asimov (a great Shakespeare fan, and author of Asimov's Guide to Shakespeare) posited that Shakespeare's corpus of work might have served as a break on the evolution of the English language - that the importance of his work meant that English could not change so much that Shakespeare would become unintelligible or unappreciable to, at least, educated speakers.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Lagertha, @AKAHorace, @NOTA

    Thanks.

    That’s a good start.

  • Off topic, but of interest.

    Anna Di Franco’s argument for/against the Electoral college.

    http://www.salon.com/2016/12/13/ani-difranco-we-the-people-are-in-charge-and-we-can-insist-the-electoral-college-voters-save-our-democracy/

    A functioning media does not simply spread lies or amplify would-be dictators because it’s good for ratings. The media is in many ways complicit in, if not responsible for, the Trump phenomenon. The overwhelming support of him by the media, intentional or not, has driven and will continue to drive our relationship with the man.

    [exised]

    Enough citizens working in the media must acknowledge the existence of the Electoral College to inspire enough other citizens to call their state assembly members, contact their electors, march on their state capitols and demand that the Electoral College fulfill its suddenly crucial duty of oversight. We need a critical mass of citizens to demand that the Electoral College provide the antidote to the very disease it created.

    Then, I believe, we should abolish it once and for all before it can wreak such havoc again. The Electoral College is an undemocratic convolution that stands between us and the concept of one person, one vote that Americans live by. It is the reason that we are in this mess to begin. It is, ironically, the only thing now that can get us out. We should use it to correct its mistake and then we should remove it from obstructing direct democracy in the future.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @AKAHorace

    You can be sure that if Hillary had won in the Electoral College but lost the popular vote that this same writer would be defending to the death this valuable Constitutional check on the rabble as a cornerstone of our freedom. It's all who-whom with them. They are all still in various stages of grief and keep imagining various ways to cheat the Grim Reaper - they will demand a recount, they will convince the electors to become faithless, they will amend the Constitution so this won't happen again, etc. After Jan. 20 they will demand that Trump be impeached every time he sneezes or tweets. It will all go nowhere. Feel free to ignore them.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @AKAHorace

    AKA, Is this Ani Di Franco, the ex patriot Buffalo song writer, who wrote this? I remember Ms. Di Franco being shunned and shamed because she had the temerity to host a women's forum at a resort with the word Plantation in it's name. Is it safe for Ani to show her face yet?

  • @Anonymous
    We've reached peak leftism.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Daniel H, @David In TN

    We’ve reached peak leftism.

    They’re just getting warmed up.

    It won’t peak until they have to come to terms with real, personal defeat.

    • Replies: @Prof. Woland
    @Desiderius

    Our comedians and actors have failed us as well so perhaps this attack on Shakespeare is fitting. In a healthy non-fearful society they would be the first line of defense against such silly assertions. Public chiding and gentle humiliations should be enough to discourage this type of stupidity and give heart to the school administrators to prevent themselves from being pissed all over by their students. But like some autoimmune dysfunction, our national joke and story tellers are the most heavily infected with the disorder to the point that they would rather not be funny than say something that puts them at risk. They are the last one's to get the joke.

    Replies: @anon

    , @NOTA
    @Desiderius

    Now Venezuela, on the other hand, really does look to have reached peak leftism.

  • @whorefinder
    @Joe Magarac

    I see you're in the mood to start a fight.

    If you can tie the Shakespeare Authorship Conspiracy in with 9/11 Trooferism and Oswald Denialists, this thread will never end.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    eff all you guys, named Joe. My mother (late 80’s now) wrote her Master’s Thesis on the truthiness of Shakespeare in 1951. I will, only, if you all want it posted here (somehow..Steve & Ron will have to help me do that…so yeah, never gonna happen! – cause I’m too ” out there!”) about her conclusion that WS absolutely wrote his own SH*T. My mother, just lately said, “why are people still debating this? Is it so hard for people today to think that people centuries ago weren’t burdened with all the stuff that we are burdened with and confounded with today?” In her own words, she said that there were always people like her son (my brother) who were hell-bent on questioning the status quo. And, Steve, Ron, many others, are the guys who have the very forums where we, the lost/jaded/tired, come and find other people talking about truthiness. Shit, I’m outta time! I’m still…aaw forget it. I have to get up early and be alert.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Lagertha

    Lagertha, Thanks for the invitation to, well you know what. I'll ask my wife if it's ok with her.

  • @Richard S
    Lol, so would the "whitest thing" that could happen on campus be, say, original ground-breaking research in some cutting edge field? Or maybe even just quietly working on coursework in the library??

    Because I'd better not say what the "blackest thing" that could happen on campus brings to mind..

    I would love it if they tried something similar in a science department. It's odd that there's no black lesbian feminists working to use "the masters' tools" to investigate baryonic dark matter or higher-dimensional topographical manifolds or the like..

    Come on, sassy black women! Now's your chance finally to demonstrate that talent and creativity of yours, which is so often alleged.

    Replies: @Daniel Williams

    Lol, so would the “whitest thing” that could happen on campus be, say, original ground-breaking research in some cutting edge field? Or maybe even just quietly working on coursework in the library??

    I dunno…

    Reporting a violent crime in progress?
    Asking someone to turn down his stereo?
    Getting a B on a math test and not caring?

  • Shakespeare looks like colin kaepernick.

  • @Jefferson
    "And that’s what really matters in Ivy League English Departments, not who is better at English:"

    Ebonics is English you racist White supremacist. Ebonics is just English with a different accent just like New York English, New Jersey English, Boston English, Southern U.S English, Australian English, Kiwi English, Scottish English, Jamaican English, etc. Sorry not everybody speaks English with a neutral generic accent like you.

    Replies: @TGGP, @Authenticjazzman, @SFG

    A dialect like ebonics (or the regional varieties of English you listed) is not simply a different way of saying the same words, an accent. There are also different words & phrases not found in other dialects. Although Lorde doesn’t appear to actually be writing in ebonics, just writing English in a way intended to repel most readers, as is common in modern poetry.

    The idea that Shakespeare is so iconic he doesn’t need portraits is at least novel. Just exactly why Lorde deserves to be made more familiar to students is another story.

    I’ve always found that expression about the master’s tools & house odd. You’d expect the tools used on the house would be exactly the sort useful for tearing it down. You’re not going to tear down Trump Tower with a stone axe. And carrying the analogy into the political, revolutionaries tend to come from the same elite class they are supposed to be overthrowing.

    • Replies: @Hockamaw
    @TGGP

    In fact, Ebonics (the true language of the street Africans, not the "Ebonics" of the black Marxist self-parodies in university English departments) is a form of creole dialect. It is indeed a sort of pidgin tongue.

  • @Kyle a
    What the hell did she say? That was an even tougher read than old Willy.

    Replies: @Kylie

    “What the hell did she say?”

    “Blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black black…”

    That’s as far as I got.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Kylie

    "“What the hell did she say?”

    “Blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black black…”

    That’s as far as I got."

    These people need to go to an ivy league college to discover that they are Black? They can't just look at a mirror? It sure would help them avoid thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt over a useless Black studies bachelor's degree.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    , @Lagertha
    @Kylie

    hahhahhh, so funny, Kylie. So agree that this was an article that we all need to take a stab at. With Trump in office, stuff will still be thick with fight and intrigue. It will be a ferocious fight for 4 years.

    Replies: @Kylie

  • @Lagertha
    @Cwhatfuture

    What you know about the college application process/the admitted students is false. Simply false and actually, sad. The Ivies & Co. are the worst offenders...and the first to be losers big league, as the intelligentia is moving on to state "honors colleges," with no debt. The trailblazers don't care about corporate labels anymore...if they can the stepping stone degree, the BA, cheap-no debt well, yaaaa. HS students want sun, beach, riding/skiing- Rocky mountains for 4 years...not debt in some boring small, cold town with no satellites from SV. .

    Replies: @Cwhatfuture

    Well I can believe it as everything I see from the Ivy League (from the news) makes their students look stupid – unintelligent and badly educated. I’m sure the sciences are still very strong but the liberal arts students sound like morons. But it does make sense to me that that they still secure the best government jobs, as everything our government does seems stupid to me as well.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Cwhatfuture

    They are only accepting 5% of the top 5-10% in the country....accepting 10 % of the top 5% of foreign students (for the $$$).

    So, 70- 75% are sooo mediocre..incredibly average in intelligence. In my day 85% were the top 5%; not 20% today. Also, I am not talking about the athletes (20-25%) at all, from all over the world. A very small percentage of the athletes are in the top 5% (worldwide) of academic ability/intelligence/test scores. The Ivy & Co. are gonna be epic-bullshit in a few decades - all the startups will come from state universities...as the elite schools will graduate awesome volumes of SJW's but, they will be cheap alumni givers. haha. I mean, the Ivies have doubled-down to get the smart football players to come to their school. Weird factoid: Football players are the most generous alumni donors. IRONIC, RIGHT??? My sons didn't like the zeitgeist at these campuses...and, times are a changing again.

  • I don’t think I’d ever heard of The Root before, but it’s an interesting convergence point of iSteveish topics:

    • Haim Saban: √ (they’re owned by Univision)

    • Henry Louis Gates: √ (founded “under his leadership”; I’m assuming some kind of advisory role)

    • Sailer’s First Law of Female Journalism: √ ( http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2016/12/is-my-natural-hair-holding-back-my-career/ )

  • @Desiderius
    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?

    My sense is that part of the reason such hallmarks of our culture are now vulnerable (in addition, of course, to the malignant forces actually doing the attacking) is that we've fallen out of practice at advocating for them (that culture merits more than mere defense).

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @syonredux, @bored identity, @Anonymous, @SFG

    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?

    Read I Henry IV, Macbeth , King Lear, The Tempest, etc

    If that doesn’t do it, nothing will.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    @syonredux

    What do you like about The Tempest?

    Replies: @syonredux, @Mike Sylwester, @Sayless

    , @Desiderius
    @syonredux

    In other words, you've got nothing or can't be bothered.

    Not good enough.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @David, @syonredux

    , @NOTA
    @syonredux

    Reading the plays is good, but seeing the plays (videos of good productions are easy to come by) really brings things out that are hard to catch just by reading, especially if you're not used to reading plays.

    Replies: @syonredux

  • @Cwhatfuture
    @Lagertha

    And yet the Ivies are overwhelmed with applications.... Nevertheless, their students, if this is a typical example, do not seem very impressive at all.... But despite that they seem secure the plum jobs - especially in government.

    How does this happen?

    No wonder this country is so screwed up.

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Lagertha

    also, govt jobs are so over. Trump will shutter dumb-ass govt wasteful jobs.

  • @Kylie
    @Kyle a

    "What the hell did she say?"

    "Blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black black..."

    That's as far as I got.

    Replies: @Jefferson, @Lagertha

    ““What the hell did she say?”

    “Blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black black…”

    That’s as far as I got.”

    These people need to go to an ivy league college to discover that they are Black? They can’t just look at a mirror? It sure would help them avoid thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt over a useless Black studies bachelor’s degree.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Jefferson

    they have no debt. They are on full FAFSA scholarship. If they default, one day, we are all paying for that degree! OK, the most disgusting thing, since I am an immigrant and all (American citizen), elite U's have tons of illegals whose education is also paid by the Federal Govt....and, if they default, we all pay for it. I can't stand the Ivies and Elite U's! Why should regular folks pay for Illegals at Ivies & Co's???? really????

  • @Mr. Anon
    @Desiderius

    "Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?"

    He is the most influential dramatist in the English language. His plays continue to be performed to this day in thier (mostly) original form - even as movies intended for a wider audience. And they serve as the inspiration for much popular culture, such as Broadway musicals (West Side Story, Kiss Me Kate), movies (Ran, Throne of Blood, Forbidden Planet, The Lion King, etc.).

    Shakespeare was the greatest single phrase-maker in the English language, save perhaps for the King James Bible; Quotes of his show up everywhere. There were probably half-a-dozen Star Trek episodes, or more, the titles of which were drawn from Shakespeare's works.

    Isaac Asimov (a great Shakespeare fan, and author of Asimov's Guide to Shakespeare) posited that Shakespeare's corpus of work might have served as a break on the evolution of the English language - that the importance of his work meant that English could not change so much that Shakespeare would become unintelligible or unappreciable to, at least, educated speakers.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Lagertha, @AKAHorace, @NOTA

    Bravo..wonderful.

    • Agree: ic1000
  • @Androgynous Misogynist
    Audre' Lorde looks like Obama.

    Replies: @bored identity, @Buffalo Joe

    And wherever you find a bathhouse community organizer, rest assured that Jimmy Savile also can’t be too far away:

  • @Cwhatfuture
    @Lagertha

    Well I can believe it as everything I see from the Ivy League (from the news) makes their students look stupid - unintelligent and badly educated. I'm sure the sciences are still very strong but the liberal arts students sound like morons. But it does make sense to me that that they still secure the best government jobs, as everything our government does seems stupid to me as well.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    They are only accepting 5% of the top 5-10% in the country….accepting 10 % of the top 5% of foreign students (for the $$$).

    So, 70- 75% are sooo mediocre..incredibly average in intelligence. In my day 85% were the top 5%; not 20% today. Also, I am not talking about the athletes (20-25%) at all, from all over the world. A very small percentage of the athletes are in the top 5% (worldwide) of academic ability/intelligence/test scores. The Ivy & Co. are gonna be epic-bullshit in a few decades – all the startups will come from state universities…as the elite schools will graduate awesome volumes of SJW’s but, they will be cheap alumni givers. haha. I mean, the Ivies have doubled-down to get the smart football players to come to their school. Weird factoid: Football players are the most generous alumni donors. IRONIC, RIGHT??? My sons didn’t like the zeitgeist at these campuses…and, times are a changing again.

  • @Tiny Duck
    @Hunsdon

    Too bad he will not be president

    You know don't you that there is proof that he collided with Russia to steal election. That is treason

    Replies: @Opinionator, @anonymous, @Lurker

    I would be interested in reading up on the evidence of collusion. Can you provide a cite?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Opinionator

    No, no, you are doing Ducklet an injustice. He said Trump collided with Russia. It was at night and snowing hard. Trump apologized, then asked, "Excuse me, is this the way to the White House?"

    Replies: @neon2

  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/808407221616918528

    Replies: @Anon, @snorlax, @MikeJa, @antipater_1

    I wonder if the tweet was prepared and sitting on Twitter’s server, though not yet published, and some of the people who run Twitter make a habit of spying on this activity (or pass info along to friends or reporters who pay for scoops) and the spies were able to react early. If you were Twitter’s CEO, you could make a killing in your stock portfolio just by keeping an eye on Trump.

  • @syonredux
    @Desiderius


    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?
     
    Read I Henry IV, Macbeth , King Lear, The Tempest, etc

    If that doesn't do it, nothing will.

    Replies: @Opinionator, @Desiderius, @NOTA

    What do you like about The Tempest?

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Opinionator


    What do you like about The Tempest?
     
    Where to start? Where to end? The masterly delineation of character, the beautiful manipulation of language, the brief evocation of utopian speculations in 2.1, the meta-theatrical gestures, the contrast between Ariel and Caliban, etc


    *
    , @Mike Sylwester
    @Opinionator


    What do you like about The Tempest?
     
    The play teaches us to make what we can from our brief, mystical existence.

    Prospero, born a duke, has been overthrown and exiled with his child-daughter to an island. There, Prospero develops magical powers and develops a kingdom populated by a few strange creatures. Eventually Prospero manages to marry his daughter to a nice young man who has been shipwrecked to the same island. Finally, Prospero is satisfied by his daughter's happiness, and so he retires from his magical kingship. He sums up his acquired philosophy as follows:


    Our revels now are ended.
    These our actors, as I foretold you,
    Were all spirits and are melted into air,
    Into thin air.

    And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
    The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
    The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
    Ye all which it inherit, shall dissolve.

    And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
    Leave not a rack behind.

    We are such stuff
    As dreams are made on, and our little life
    Is rounded with a sleep.
     

    Life is an illusion, but it includes moments of happiness -- such as helping our children to succeed us.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @SFG

    , @Sayless
    @Opinionator

    "What do you like about the tempest?"

    The dialogue.

    Replies: @Opinionator

  • @Jefferson
    @Kylie

    "“What the hell did she say?”

    “Blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black black…”

    That’s as far as I got."

    These people need to go to an ivy league college to discover that they are Black? They can't just look at a mirror? It sure would help them avoid thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt over a useless Black studies bachelor's degree.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    they have no debt. They are on full FAFSA scholarship. If they default, one day, we are all paying for that degree! OK, the most disgusting thing, since I am an immigrant and all (American citizen), elite U’s have tons of illegals whose education is also paid by the Federal Govt….and, if they default, we all pay for it. I can’t stand the Ivies and Elite U’s! Why should regular folks pay for Illegals at Ivies & Co’s???? really????

  • @Kylie
    @Kyle a

    "What the hell did she say?"

    "Blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black blackety black black blackety black black black I am woman hear me bore blackety black black black..."

    That's as far as I got.

    Replies: @Jefferson, @Lagertha

    hahhahhh, so funny, Kylie. So agree that this was an article that we all need to take a stab at. With Trump in office, stuff will still be thick with fight and intrigue. It will be a ferocious fight for 4 years.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    @Lagertha

    "With Trump in office, stuff will still be thick with fight and intrigue. It will be a ferocious fight for 4 years."

    Definitely. What's so hilarious is the leftists (especially the distaff did) aren't digging in their heels as a matter of principle but simply because for the first time in ages, they've been thwarted.

    For your viewing pleasure:

    https://youtu.be/aVlHZh5dvbA

  • @Desiderius
    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?

    My sense is that part of the reason such hallmarks of our culture are now vulnerable (in addition, of course, to the malignant forces actually doing the attacking) is that we've fallen out of practice at advocating for them (that culture merits more than mere defense).

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @syonredux, @bored identity, @Anonymous, @SFG

    ‘cuz he white, a’ight ?!

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @bored identity

    They've been out of the Shakespeare business for a long time. They're now feeling their oats enough to let it be widely known. It's is at least somewhat on us that it wasn't already.

    The business they are in is impeding the traditional means of social mobility (such as liberal education - there is a reason Shakespeare drew huge crowds in both the pit and the box) in order to enhance the value of the illegitimate means of advancement they exclusively sell.

  • Very OT, H&M ad directed by Wes Anderson with Adrien Brody. Typical Wes Anderson–you expect something to happen but it doesn’t really. Yet, pastel colours and fancy decor.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @theo the kraut

    Loved it. He always creates a world I'd like to live in.

  • My favorite black wordsmith is Aaron.

    Alas, but he is a character conjured by the rascal himself.

    I have the good fortune to see Titus Andronicus performed live, and then the good sense to see it performed on the following two consecutive evenings.

    http://www.shakespeare-online.com/plays/titus_5_1.html

    • Replies: @NOTA
    @Moshe

    Villain, I have *done* thy mother.

  • @Opinionator
    @syonredux

    What do you like about The Tempest?

    Replies: @syonredux, @Mike Sylwester, @Sayless

    What do you like about The Tempest?

    Where to start? Where to end? The masterly delineation of character, the beautiful manipulation of language, the brief evocation of utopian speculations in 2.1, the meta-theatrical gestures, the contrast between Ariel and Caliban, etc

    *

  • @Mr. Anon
    @Desiderius

    "Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?"

    He is the most influential dramatist in the English language. His plays continue to be performed to this day in thier (mostly) original form - even as movies intended for a wider audience. And they serve as the inspiration for much popular culture, such as Broadway musicals (West Side Story, Kiss Me Kate), movies (Ran, Throne of Blood, Forbidden Planet, The Lion King, etc.).

    Shakespeare was the greatest single phrase-maker in the English language, save perhaps for the King James Bible; Quotes of his show up everywhere. There were probably half-a-dozen Star Trek episodes, or more, the titles of which were drawn from Shakespeare's works.

    Isaac Asimov (a great Shakespeare fan, and author of Asimov's Guide to Shakespeare) posited that Shakespeare's corpus of work might have served as a break on the evolution of the English language - that the importance of his work meant that English could not change so much that Shakespeare would become unintelligible or unappreciable to, at least, educated speakers.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Lagertha, @AKAHorace, @NOTA

    Was he the greatest phrase maker because he was William Shakespeare, or because he was writing at a time when the language was changing quickly ? Is he so much better than Marlowe and others of his time ?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @AKAHorace

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn't a high prestige field. It's kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn't hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.

    Replies: @JimB, @keypusher, @Daniel Williams, @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @guest, @guest

    , @Cletus Rothschild
    @AKAHorace

    "Was he the greatest phrase maker because he was William Shakespeare, or because he was writing at a time when the language was changing quickly ?"

    You could ask the same question about the advances that The Beatles had in rock music and recording techniques and the answer is the same: it doesn't matter, because Shakespeare and The Beatles are the ones who were creative enough to make the advance happen when and how they happened. It's their fingerprints all over them, not someone eles's.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @AKAHorace

    I say he is the greatest phrase maker, because quotes of his permeate our culture, even to this day.

    , @res
    @AKAHorace

    What other writers have contributions on the order of:
    http://shakespeare-online.com/biography/wordsinvented.html
    http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/phrases-sayings-shakespeare.html

    As Mr. Anon noted in his wonderful summary, the King James Bible is a worthy contender:
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2011/feb/18/phrases-king-james-bible
    but coined fewer new words (if you only follow one link here make it this one):
    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-12205084
    a good summary from that article:


    He also found that the Bible coined few new words. Shakespeare by comparison, introduced about 100 phrases into our idiom, to the Bible's 257, but something like 1,000 new words. The English Bible introduced only 40 or so, including "battering ram" and "backsliding".

    "This reflects their different jobs," says Crystal. "The whole point of being a dramatist is to be original in your language. The Bible translators, in contrast, were under strict instructions not to be innovative but to look backwards to what earlier translators had done." Earlier translators whose only concern was to translate the Bible literally.
     
    Also worth noting:

    "Only 18 (res: of the 257 phrases) of that total were unique to the King James Bible. It didn't originate these usages, it acted as a kind of conduit through which they became popular. Tyndale was the number one influence."
     
    P.S. You make a good point about English changing quickly at the time, but it's hard to be sure about the direction of causality and I think a good case can be made for Shakespeare and the King James Bible solidifying the English language.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dieter Kief

  • @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/808407221616918528

    Replies: @Anon, @snorlax, @MikeJa, @antipater_1

    Occam’s Razor: Trump tweeted at 8:20, then deleted and reposted the tweet because he made a typo. (Which is something he frequently does).

  • Pet theory: 80% of the Shakespeare authorship conspiracies would disappear if we just knew where he was during the “lost” years—1585 to 1592. Those years are critical, because in 1585 he was nobody but by 1592 he had established himself enough to be a threat to current playwrights/actors and was insulted by Robert Greene as such an upstart.

    I think one day we’ll find out Will was apprenticed/schooled at some white-collar job befitting a new father/husband who was also the bright son of a social-climbing mayor, and then drifted away to become a playwright, perhaps by punching up a few scripts for other actors or showing some talent at acting on the stage. Such a white collar job/schooling would give Will enough additional education to make the anti-Will snobs give up the ghost.

    Elizabeth’s secret service was vast enough to catch Will’s father illegally dealing in wool, and we found those records recently. I’m sure she kept records of apprentices/new students of white collar jobs, just to see who might be a budding intellectual threat or potential recruit for her intelligensia. I think we’ll find that record somewhere someday.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    Shakespeare might have been a law clerk.

    A huge fraction of the great writers and composers in European history studied and/or worked in the law. It's probably the second most common intended career of famous guys whose didn't follow their dad into his art. A very common story is Dad ordering Junior to go into the law because it pays well, and Junior complaining that it's boring. It comes up over and over in the lives of famous (non-visual) artists across hundreds of years of European history. (Visual artists, in contrast, typically apprenticed young into painting or sculpting.)

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Amasius, @FPD72, @I, Libertine, @whorefinder, @Kylie

  • @Anonymous
    We've reached peak leftism.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Daniel H, @David In TN

    >>We’ve reached peak leftism.

    Nope, there is still a long, long way down, and we will surely get there, sooner or later.

    • Replies: @bomag
    @Daniel H


    there is still a long, long way down
     
    Indeed.

    Such self-annihilating doomsday cults like nothing better than to signal their virtue by giving it all for the cause.
  • Well, at least we can expect that while a bust of Isaac Newton might be destroyed, no one would ever lay a finger on a photograph of Einstein or Feynman…

  • @AKAHorace
    @Mr. Anon

    Was he the greatest phrase maker because he was William Shakespeare, or because he was writing at a time when the language was changing quickly ? Is he so much better than Marlowe and others of his time ?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cletus Rothschild, @Mr. Anon, @res

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn’t a high prestige field. It’s kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn’t hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.

    • Replies: @JimB
    @Steve Sailer

    You're channeling Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, a timeless movie classic.

    , @keypusher
    @Steve Sailer

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn’t a high prestige field.

    It's a little more complicated than than. Yes, actors were considered little better than criminals, but on the other hand Shakespeare's company appeared regularly before Queen Elizabeth and then King James. They were called the Lord Chamberlain's Men, and then the King's Men, and it wasn't just a figure of speech.

    A number of books gathering examples of fine writing were published in London around 1600. Non-dramatic poets got the most citations, but playwrights also got plenty of quotes, and Shakespeare by far the most among playwrights (of course Venus and Adonis and The Rape of Lucrece got cited too). Plays (especially Shakespeare's) were a staple in the bookshops.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn’t hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    That's fair. His reputation in the 17th century is hard to get a handle on. Bentley wrote a book arguing that Jonson had a better reputation among writers, but the publication data indicates pretty clearly that Shakespeare remained much more popular among readers. Different critics had different favorites, but my sense is that there was no consensus that Shakespeare was better than Jonson or Beaumont and Fletcher. Interestingly, Dryden said that Beaumont and Fletcher were better at portraying gentlemen, evidently because they came from a higher social class.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Daniel Williams
    @Steve Sailer


    It’s kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.
     
    Ha ha ha. And then future Ivy Leaguers will claim he appropriated his shtick from Piolín.
    , @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    It's also because English intellectuals went looking for a Shakespeare, and found him.

    In the 18th Century, England was battling France for domination of the Western world. They of course battled militarily, but also culturally. England had long ceded to France the crown of most cultured (it was a mark of high class in England to speak and read French), but in the 18th Century England tried to assert its own culture as superior to that of France. In searching its history, its cultural propagandists found Shakespeare and held him up as the example of the world's greatest playwright.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Desiderius
    @Steve Sailer


    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.
     
    Shakespeare is a not inconsiderable reason why English spread around the globe, and certainly why such a field as English exists to pay Prof. Esty's considerable salary.

    Bach likewise took awhile to catch on.

    Replies: @frayedthread

    , @guest
    @Steve Sailer

    I once heard Vince McMahon argue that his art was the Shakespeare of our day because Shakespeare was also looked down upon. Of course, that's at best half an argument.

    Don't get carried away with yourself. Barely anyone bothers relistening to episodes of Howard Stern, let alone reads transcripts of them. It would be better to pick, I don't know, Harry Potter as eventually being considered High Art.

    Ifsoever Stern is placed alongside Shakespeare, it would mean our civilization had already collapsed. Shakespeare's world had of course ceased to be by the time his reputation was inflated all out of proportion to his contemporaries in the last couple of centuries. But there was and is still something of Western Civilization amongst us.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Desiderius

    , @guest
    @Steve Sailer

    Furthermore, no DJ has yet scaled our cultural heights. However playwrights were looked down upon in Shakespeare's time, his culture did esteem some of them. Even if they had to reach back into Greek antiquity to find worthies.

  • @Tiny Duck
    @Hunsdon

    Too bad he will not be president

    You know don't you that there is proof that he collided with Russia to steal election. That is treason

    Replies: @Opinionator, @anonymous, @Lurker

    Collided with Russia? Ouch, must have hurt.

    Come on, admit it, you’re really one of us deplorables.

    • Replies: @Kyle a
    @anonymous

    No she isn't.

  • @whorefinder
    Pet theory: 80% of the Shakespeare authorship conspiracies would disappear if we just knew where he was during the "lost" years---1585 to 1592. Those years are critical, because in 1585 he was nobody but by 1592 he had established himself enough to be a threat to current playwrights/actors and was insulted by Robert Greene as such an upstart.

    I think one day we'll find out Will was apprenticed/schooled at some white-collar job befitting a new father/husband who was also the bright son of a social-climbing mayor, and then drifted away to become a playwright, perhaps by punching up a few scripts for other actors or showing some talent at acting on the stage. Such a white collar job/schooling would give Will enough additional education to make the anti-Will snobs give up the ghost.

    Elizabeth's secret service was vast enough to catch Will's father illegally dealing in wool, and we found those records recently. I'm sure she kept records of apprentices/new students of white collar jobs, just to see who might be a budding intellectual threat or potential recruit for her intelligensia. I think we'll find that record somewhere someday.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Shakespeare might have been a law clerk.

    A huge fraction of the great writers and composers in European history studied and/or worked in the law. It’s probably the second most common intended career of famous guys whose didn’t follow their dad into his art. A very common story is Dad ordering Junior to go into the law because it pays well, and Junior complaining that it’s boring. It comes up over and over in the lives of famous (non-visual) artists across hundreds of years of European history. (Visual artists, in contrast, typically apprenticed young into painting or sculpting.)

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Steve Sailer

    You're probably correct in that...the 'doing something' like apprenticing with someone, to pay the bills and all.

    My mother's theory was that he had children whom he had to provide for, so for a couple of years, he did boring stoop labor. However, my mother still believes that WS was profoundly gifted. Her thesis dealt with the authenticity of his work vis a' vis the other contemporary male writers & the speculation that their work may have been his. My mother called bullshit in 1951. And, I have read her thesis...and it is hard to not notice. My mother referred to envy being a yuge factor. Who the frack really knows, right?, even my mother still says that it is inconclusive. But, what a great one was he, right? How could he be so cool and still be relevant?

    , @Amasius
    @Steve Sailer

    Interesting comment. The pattern goes all the way back to Ovid (if not further). His situation was just like you describe: pushed into law, didn't like it. Wiki has it:

    "His father wanted him to study rhetoric toward the practice of law. According to Seneca the Elder, Ovid tended to the emotional, not the argumentative pole of rhetoric. After the death of his brother at 20 years of age, Ovid renounced law and began travelling to Athens, Asia Minor, and Sicily.[6] He held minor public posts, as one of the tresviri capitales,[7] as a member of the Centumviral court[8] and as one of the decemviri litibus iudicandis,[9] but resigned to pursue poetry probably around 29–25 BC, a decision his father apparently disapproved of."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovid#Birth.2C_early_life.2C_and_marriage

    "Quod temptabam dicere versus erat."

    (Whatever I tried to say came out as poetry.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @FPD72
    @Steve Sailer

    Both Martin Luther and John Calvin studied and prepared for a career in law as well before turning to theological pursuits.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    , @I, Libertine
    @Steve Sailer

    For most of the "might haves" or "must haves" we have for William Shakspere (or Shagsper, or other variations of the spelling on his six extant signatures, none of them "Shakespeare") of Stratford, we have "definitely did" for Edward DeVere. Intimate knowledge of the language of law is one of them, requiring Stratfordians to include "service as a law clerk" as one of the many things he "must have" or at least "might have" done during the lost years.

    If you really want to get a feel for how deeply the language of the law is ingrained into the speech of Shakespeare's characters, check out the work Sir George Greenwood.

    As a salient example, I quote Mistress Page from The Merry Wives of Windsor:

    The spirit of wantonness is, sure, scared out of
    him: if the devil have him not in fee-simple, with
    fine and recovery, he will never, I think, in the
    way of waste, attempt us again.

    Here is Shakespeare placing in the mouth of a housewife (indeed, a commoner) "fine and recovery," a term for obscure legal proceeding, which she tosses out during a casual conversation.

    Shakespeare studied law, alright.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @keypusher, @whorefinder, @dfordoom

    , @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    Law clerk sounds like a great idea. But perhaps it was law student?

    From my (basic) research, it seems England of the time didn't train lawyers via becoming law clerks, but instead sent kids to law school in London---the famous Inns of Court.

    Some English king (probably Henry II or Edward II) way back in medieval times had made it a requirement that if you wanted to practice non-ecclesiastical law in England, you had to study at the Inns of Court---no apprenticeships.

    And all the Inns of Court were in London, right under the King's nose.

    Probably this requirement was made so the King could have an army of lawyers trained by people loyal to him and kept under his watchful eyes. The Church's lawyers threatened his powers and were well trained, but were limited to ecclesiastical courts. Local lords could have had their own lawyers if apprenticeships were allowed, and they could threaten him. By making all non-Church lawyers train under his watch and by his men in his town, the King kept local lords from amassing legal eagles to become hostile to him, and also allowed for a more polished lawyer loyal to him to take on the Church's canon lawyers.

    Anyway, perhaps Shakespeare and his Dad, worried about his growing family with no income, sent him off to London to the Inns of Court. There, he studied, got bored, watched the plays performed in the law schools (law schools would sponsor plays to entertain the students), went to the theater, and got recruited to the stage.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Kylie
    @Steve Sailer

    Robert Schumann was sent by his widowed mother and his guardian to study law to fulfill the terms of his inheritance.

    He was intent on a career in music, though, and finally wrote his mother that, "My whole life has been a struggle between Poetry and Prose, or call it Music and Law." Schumann, as eloquent a writer as he was taciturn in conversation, managed to prevail and began studying piano under the master teacher, Friedrich Wieck. Luckily an injured finger ended his dream if becoming a virtuoso pianist and he turned to composing music instead.

  • @415 reasons
    @Anonymous

    You're thinking of George Washington who invented the peanut.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Lurker

    Also peas. And nuts.

  • In the old age black was not counted fair,
    Or if it were, it bore not beauty’s name;
    But now is black beauty’s successive heir,
    And beauty slandered with a bastard shame:
    For since each hand hath put on Nature’s power,
    Fairing the foul with Art’s false borrowed face,
    Sweet beauty hath no name, no holy bower,
    But is profaned, if not lives in disgrace.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    Shakespeare might have been a law clerk.

    A huge fraction of the great writers and composers in European history studied and/or worked in the law. It's probably the second most common intended career of famous guys whose didn't follow their dad into his art. A very common story is Dad ordering Junior to go into the law because it pays well, and Junior complaining that it's boring. It comes up over and over in the lives of famous (non-visual) artists across hundreds of years of European history. (Visual artists, in contrast, typically apprenticed young into painting or sculpting.)

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Amasius, @FPD72, @I, Libertine, @whorefinder, @Kylie

    You’re probably correct in that…the ‘doing something’ like apprenticing with someone, to pay the bills and all.

    My mother’s theory was that he had children whom he had to provide for, so for a couple of years, he did boring stoop labor. However, my mother still believes that WS was profoundly gifted. Her thesis dealt with the authenticity of his work vis a’ vis the other contemporary male writers & the speculation that their work may have been his. My mother called bullshit in 1951. And, I have read her thesis…and it is hard to not notice. My mother referred to envy being a yuge factor. Who the frack really knows, right?, even my mother still says that it is inconclusive. But, what a great one was he, right? How could he be so cool and still be relevant?

  • I knew someone who knew Audre Lourde’s son. My friend said that her son joined the marines to get away from his mom, was often emotionally shut down and non-communicative, but did volunteer that he hated his mom and her lesbian coven of friends and felt like they had tortured him growing up.

  • @theo the kraut
    Very OT, H&M ad directed by Wes Anderson with Adrien Brody. Typical Wes Anderson--you expect something to happen but it doesn't really. Yet, pastel colours and fancy decor.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDinoNRC49c

    Replies: @Lurker

    Loved it. He always creates a world I’d like to live in.

  • F off Sailer. Lorde nailed the subject -verb agreement. Woman ARE powerful and dangerous. Tough to say whose quote was better.

  • @Tiny Duck
    @Hunsdon

    Too bad he will not be president

    You know don't you that there is proof that he collided with Russia to steal election. That is treason

    Replies: @Opinionator, @anonymous, @Lurker

    What proof?

  • Victim lit has always been for mediocre writers who can’t compete

    Lorde, Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, Frantz Fanon, Ta-Nehisi Coates and other oppression narrators all pretty much amount to trash who try really hard to not seem like trash. Seriously, read their stuff. The tryhard is palpable, and almost sad. Reminds me of authors in China who keep pumping out books about what happened to them during the 70’s until people just got tired of them.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    @Jason Liu

    >>Victim lit has always been for mediocre writers who can’t compete.

    "All art is quite useless"
    Oscar Wilde

    That is a compliment to art, in fact, it's greatest tribute.

    , @anonymous coward
    @Jason Liu


    Lorde, Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, Frantz Fanon, Ta-Nehisi Coates
     
    Morrison doesn't really belong on that list, she has talent and writes amusing red-pilled books. I think she is the only writer who managed to insert an antisemitic barb into a novel and get a Nobel Prize for it.
  • “…an African American writer, feminist, womanist, lesbian, and civil rights activist.”

    Wait, she’s a “womanist?” That changes everything!

    I was thinking that it wasn’t quite enough just her being a feminist, lesbian, and civil right activist. But “womanist?!” I’m now sold. What could top that? Put her on Mt. Rushmore and replace Lennon’s pic on the cover of “Meet the Beatles” with her too.

    • Replies: @ogunsiron
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    Womanists = black feminists who are even uglier than white and ((( white ))) feminists and who kvetch about it

  • @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/808476572529360897

    Trump derangement syndrome in action.

    Replies: @Amasius, @fish, @guest, @Hubbub

    I’m so sad and embarrassed I watched that guy during the Bush years.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    Shakespeare might have been a law clerk.

    A huge fraction of the great writers and composers in European history studied and/or worked in the law. It's probably the second most common intended career of famous guys whose didn't follow their dad into his art. A very common story is Dad ordering Junior to go into the law because it pays well, and Junior complaining that it's boring. It comes up over and over in the lives of famous (non-visual) artists across hundreds of years of European history. (Visual artists, in contrast, typically apprenticed young into painting or sculpting.)

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Amasius, @FPD72, @I, Libertine, @whorefinder, @Kylie

    Interesting comment. The pattern goes all the way back to Ovid (if not further). His situation was just like you describe: pushed into law, didn’t like it. Wiki has it:

    “His father wanted him to study rhetoric toward the practice of law. According to Seneca the Elder, Ovid tended to the emotional, not the argumentative pole of rhetoric. After the death of his brother at 20 years of age, Ovid renounced law and began travelling to Athens, Asia Minor, and Sicily.[6] He held minor public posts, as one of the tresviri capitales,[7] as a member of the Centumviral court[8] and as one of the decemviri litibus iudicandis,[9] but resigned to pursue poetry probably around 29–25 BC, a decision his father apparently disapproved of.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovid#Birth.2C_early_life.2C_and_marriage

    “Quod temptabam dicere versus erat.”

    (Whatever I tried to say came out as poetry.)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Amasius

    Probably a majority of famous artists have been sons of somebody in their eventual field, but among future famous artists who were bourgeois and not the sons of artists, a career in the law comes up all the time as the safe choice promoted by their parents.

    For example, Robert Louis Stevenson came from a dynasty of lighthouse architects. His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn't terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he'd study law to be safe in case the writing didn't work out. Stevenson passed the bar exam, and his father invested in a brass nameplate reading "R.L. Stevenson, Advocate," but he never practiced law.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @guest, @Karl

  • @Mike Sylwester
    Here's some of a Lorde poem titled "Never to Dream of Spiders"

    Time collapses between the lips of strangers
    my days collapse into a hollow tube
    soon implodes against now
    like an iron wall
    my eyes are blocked with rubble
    a smear of perspectives
    blurring each horizon
    in the breathless precision of silence
    one word is made.

    [blah blah blah blah]

    Day three day four day ten
    the seventh step
    a veiled door leading to my golden anniversary
    flameproofed free-paper shredded
    in the teeth of a pillaging dog
    never to dream of spiders
    and when they turned the hoses upon me
    a burst of light.

    [the end]
     

    Here's a poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, titled "The Children's Hour"

    Between the dark and the daylight,
    When the night is beginning to lower,
    Comes a pause in the day's occupations,
    That is known as the Children's Hour.

    I hear in the chamber above me
    The patter of little feet,
    The sound of a door that is opened,
    And voices soft and sweet.

    From my study I see in the lamplight,
    Descending the broad hall stair,
    Grave Alice, and laughing Allegra,
    And Edith with golden hair.

    A whisper, and then a silence:
    Yet I know by their merry eyes
    They are plotting and planning together
    To take me by surprise.

    A sudden rush from the stairway,
    A sudden raid from the hall!
    By three doors left unguarded
    They enter my castle wall!

    They climb up into my turret
    O'er the arms and back of my chair;
    If I try to escape, they surround me;
    They seem to be everywhere.

    They almost devour me with kisses,
    Their arms about me entwine,
    Till I think of the Bishop of Bingen
    In his Mouse-Tower on the Rhine!

    Do you think, O blue-eyed banditti,
    Because you have scaled the wall,
    Such an old mustache as I am
    Is not a match for you all!

    I have you fast in my fortress,
    And will not let you depart,
    But put you down into the dungeon
    In the round-tower of my heart.

    And there will I keep you forever,
    Yes, forever and a day,
    Till the walls shall crumble to ruin,
    And moulder in dust away!
     

    http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/never-to-dream-of-spiders/

    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/44628

    Replies: @Olorin, @Buffalo Joe

    And let Bassanio reply to the former:

    So may the outward shows be least themselves:
    The world is still deceived with ornament.
    In law, what plea so tainted and corrupt,
    But, being seasoned with a gracious voice,
    Obscures the show of evil? In religion,
    What damned error, but some sober brow
    Will bless it and approve it with a text,
    Hiding the grossness with fair ornament?
    There is no vice so simple but assumes
    Some mark of virtue on his outward parts:
    How many cowards, whose hearts are all as false
    As stairs of sand, wear yet upon their chins
    The beards of Hercules and frowning Mars;
    Who, inward search’d, have livers white as milk;
    And these assume but valour’s excrement
    To render them redoubted! Look on beauty,
    And you shall see ’tis purchased by the weight;
    Which therein works a miracle in nature,
    Making them lightest that wear most of it:
    So are those crisped snaky golden locks
    Which make such wanton gambols with the wind,
    Upon supposed fairness, often known
    To be the dowry of a second head,
    The skull that bred them in the sepulchre.

  • My take on the Ivy League grads I’ve encountered in my professional career? Overrated. Soft. Weak. Narcissistic. Pathetic. Breezy. Kick up lots of dust and hot air. Insecure. Loud. Self-centered. Shallow. Rude. Arrogant. Unreliable. Sloppy thinkers and poor writers and analysts. Asspains. Credentialed not educated. Have lived their lives in wealthy urban bubbles and rarely have been off concrete. Zero outdoor skills or talents, wouldn’t rely on them to pitch a tent properly or start a propane cook stove. Never have rolled up their sleeves and have done real work at a crap job. Never have been on a farm or shoveled manure etc. Spoiled and entitled beyond belief. No real world experience in anything. Brainwashed. No sense of humor. Don’t know how to tell a joke. Prickly and intolerant. Would break out in hives if forced to drink beer from a can. Insufferable. Scared of dirt. Lazy. Poor free throw and 3-pt shooters. To be avoided whenever possible. Overwhelmed and bedazzled by their self-perceived importance, and general awesomeness. Got their degree via connections or affirmative action or both. Terrible team players. Bad listeners. Uninteresting. Loud mouthed. Trying way too hard to impress. Lose their cool under pressure. I probably missed a few but those are off the top of my head. Apologies to Ivy Leaguers who aren’t like this, I am generalizing. Not all are like this, I’ve worked with some great ones, but stereotypes exist for a reason. Think obama and his ilk. On reflection, every one of these applies to lightweight obozo the pretender in chief.

    The Ivy League profs I’ve worked with generally are not this way, at all. They have impressed me as super smart, down to Earth, mega-reliable, super creative, and top flight analysts writers and thinkers. Powerful intellects. Great team players,and great leaders. Respected and respectable. Modest. Great public speakers. Funny! Great sense of humor. Good people and fun to be with. Interesting. Good listeners and world class conversationalists, definitely very cool people to have a single malt or three with. Maybe the smartest guy in the room (they all have been guys, sorry ladies) but would not care or even think about this, and likely to say “I don’t think so!” if you asked him. Maybe think Larry Summers. I’ve worked with folks in engineering sciences and economics, though, and not ‘creative’ writing or wymyns studies.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Buck Turgidson

    Buck, But they have lots of credibility with people who don't know them like you. My son, a Market Analyst , was brought to a meeting to advise a woman who controlled a large family trust. She asked him one question, "Did you graduate from Harvard ?" My son answered no. She then said, "Why should I listen to you?" His answer was simply "You won't", as he stood up and left. My son tracked her investments and he would have made her a solid 6% more than she earned. He has been quoted in the WSJ and retired at age 40. He didn't need her, she could have used him.

    , @Harry Baldwin
    @Buck Turgidson

    I helped my friend's son move into his four-person dorm room when he entered Yale. One of the other boys was assembling a floor lamp and when joining two tubular sections pinched the skin on his finger. The resulted in a tiny blood blister such as you or I would barely notice. He rushed off to seek medical treatment and came back awhile later with his finger in a cup of crushed ice. I tried to imagine the sort of sheltered upbringing this kid must have had.

    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Buck Turgidson


    My take on the Ivy League grads I’ve encountered in my professional career? Overrated. Soft. Weak. Narcissistic. Pathetic. Breezy. Kick up lots of dust and hot air. Insecure. Loud. Self-centered. Shallow. Rude. Arrogant. Unreliable. Sloppy thinkers and poor writers and analysts. Asspains. Credentialed not educated. Have lived their lives in wealthy urban bubbles and rarely have been off concrete. Zero outdoor skills or talents, wouldn’t rely on them to pitch a tent properly or start a propane cook stove. Never have rolled up their sleeves and have done real work at a crap job. Never have been on a farm or shoveled manure etc. Spoiled and entitled beyond belief. No real world experience in anything. Brainwashed. No sense of humor. Don’t know how to tell a joke. Prickly and intolerant. Would break out in hives if forced to drink beer from a can. Insufferable. Scared of dirt. Lazy. Poor free throw and 3-pt shooters. To be avoided whenever possible. Overwhelmed and bedazzled by their self-perceived importance, and general awesomeness. Got their degree via connections or affirmative action or both. Terrible team players. Bad listeners. Uninteresting. Loud mouthed. Trying way too hard to impress. Lose their cool under pressure. I probably missed a few but those are off the top of my head.
     
    But other than that, they're basically okay, right?

    The Ivy Leaguers I've met have varied quite a bit; there's a couple I became friends with and whom I respect greatly, including intellectually. There were also a few who met some of the criteria you set out above.

    Anyway, that rant is hilarious -- 'poor free throw and 3-pt shooters', indeed -- thanks!

    Replies: @Desiderius

  • anon • Disclaimer says:

    I am personally in favour of this move. I want the mainstream universities to completely become SJW, to the very top. Not a single white male in the curriculum. Cut these people off completely, culturally speaking.

    That way, we can have a clean separation. They can wallow in their mediocrity while we get the fruits of Western civilisation and carry the torch onwards.

    These Ivy League universities still have competitive STEM and econ departments, but for humanities you’d be better off in high-caliber East Asian universities like in Singapore, Hong Kong or parts of Eastern Europe.

  • @Pontius
    Pfffffff,

    Our government just decided to remove our first prime minister from the $10 bill and replace him with a black woman who bought a ticket to the theatre in the 1940's. You all have some catchin' up to do.


    /sarc

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-banknote-woman-1.3885844

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @Buffalo Joe

    I’ll see you your $10 replacement, and raise you the replacement of Old Hickory on the front of the U.S. $20 bill with an illiterate Negresse.

  • @Amasius
    @Steve Sailer

    Interesting comment. The pattern goes all the way back to Ovid (if not further). His situation was just like you describe: pushed into law, didn't like it. Wiki has it:

    "His father wanted him to study rhetoric toward the practice of law. According to Seneca the Elder, Ovid tended to the emotional, not the argumentative pole of rhetoric. After the death of his brother at 20 years of age, Ovid renounced law and began travelling to Athens, Asia Minor, and Sicily.[6] He held minor public posts, as one of the tresviri capitales,[7] as a member of the Centumviral court[8] and as one of the decemviri litibus iudicandis,[9] but resigned to pursue poetry probably around 29–25 BC, a decision his father apparently disapproved of."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovid#Birth.2C_early_life.2C_and_marriage

    "Quod temptabam dicere versus erat."

    (Whatever I tried to say came out as poetry.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Probably a majority of famous artists have been sons of somebody in their eventual field, but among future famous artists who were bourgeois and not the sons of artists, a career in the law comes up all the time as the safe choice promoted by their parents.

    For example, Robert Louis Stevenson came from a dynasty of lighthouse architects. His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn’t terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he’d study law to be safe in case the writing didn’t work out. Stevenson passed the bar exam, and his father invested in a brass nameplate reading “R.L. Stevenson, Advocate,” but he never practiced law.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Steve Sailer

    Also, Wallace Stevens, who went to law school and then worked at The Hartford insurance company for decades.

    , @guest
    @Steve Sailer

    For most of human history almost all intellectual occupations have been lowly or middling. Certainly that's been the case for a majority of the time in which we've documented and cared (or pretended to care) about the lives of artists. What line of work would a Good Burgher push his egghead son into? The "professions," obviously: doctor, lawyer. If he's good with words, lawyer is the best fit.

    You can't be too proud of a newspaperman or a schoolteacher.

    , @Karl
    @Steve Sailer

    > His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn’t terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he’d study law to be safe in case the writing didn’t work out


    I vaguely remember reading that (saxophonist) Kenny G's father, made him complete his degree in accounting before allowing him to go work paid gigs for a living.


    PS: concur on the opens-in-mobile-by-default problem.

    Replies: @Authenticjazzman, @Authenticjazzman, @Jim Don Bob, @Authenticjazzman

  • There is a solution to this, simply argue for this theory:
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/was-william-shakespeare-a-jewish-woman-in-disguise-1.246717

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @neutral

    Jews and blacks have a profound desire to appropriate white gentile geniuses and creations as their own.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Pericles
    @neutral

    I'll give them the next idea for free: "Is Lebron James Secretly Jewish?" No, strike that, no reader of Haaretz cares about sports. Their sports section is probably about the intricacies of trading american pro teams.

    Here's a better one, "Was Alexander Hamilton Actually a Black Jew?"

  • @whorefinder
    I love this. The Left is actively making themselves stupid. By conscious choice. It's like watching Luddities marauding their own countryside, burning and destroying and breaking all their advanced machinery.

    I mean removing the greatest writer in the English language for a tokenism is the height of hysteria and nonsense.

    The longer they keep up this charade that Ugly is Beautiful, Men Are Women, Gays are The Same As Straight, Blacks Are the Same As Whites, Whitey is Awful, etc., the dumber, poorer, and more miserable they will get.

    Delicious to watch. Trump is actually triggering them to hurt themselves.

    Is there anything Trump can't do?

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Dieter Kief, @Stephen R. Diamond, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Is there anything Trump can’t do?

    Bother about this Shakespearean comedy going on in Penn?

    – Maybe he even could – but I’d guess h e won’t.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @Amasius

    Probably a majority of famous artists have been sons of somebody in their eventual field, but among future famous artists who were bourgeois and not the sons of artists, a career in the law comes up all the time as the safe choice promoted by their parents.

    For example, Robert Louis Stevenson came from a dynasty of lighthouse architects. His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn't terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he'd study law to be safe in case the writing didn't work out. Stevenson passed the bar exam, and his father invested in a brass nameplate reading "R.L. Stevenson, Advocate," but he never practiced law.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @guest, @Karl

    Also, Wallace Stevens, who went to law school and then worked at The Hartford insurance company for decades.

  • Peak hysteria?

    • LOL: Amasius
    • Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    @IHTG

    Yes. And peak fake news.

    , @Anonymous
    @IHTG

    Keith Olberman has fallen from a cable network job to... "GQ Pundit"?

    In a world of "golden parachutes," all Keith got was a whoopee cushion.

    Biggest question for me is, what job does Keith have to be offered before he figures out that broadcasting just isn't his bag? It must be a devastating existential blow to love something, devote your life to it, and wind up discovering very late that you're bad at it. I guess that happens to a lot of entertainers. It almost broke David Hasselhoff.

    I guess in that scenario then, if you lack grit, railing at the dying of the light is the only option except resigning to insanity. The bitter irony is that committing to the first option ensures the other option.

    The tragedy of Keith Olberman could be averted, if he just resigned, and took a painting class.

  • @Jason Liu
    Victim lit has always been for mediocre writers who can't compete

    Lorde, Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, Frantz Fanon, Ta-Nehisi Coates and other oppression narrators all pretty much amount to trash who try really hard to not seem like trash. Seriously, read their stuff. The tryhard is palpable, and almost sad. Reminds me of authors in China who keep pumping out books about what happened to them during the 70's until people just got tired of them.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @anonymous coward

    >>Victim lit has always been for mediocre writers who can’t compete.

    “All art is quite useless”
    Oscar Wilde

    That is a compliment to art, in fact, it’s greatest tribute.

  • Could Shakespeare have been an admiralty lawyer, given the many maritime references in his places?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Foreign Expert

    Very little is known about the life of Shakespeare. There is absolutely no evidence that he ever practised law.
    What is known, however, is that Shakespeare was the son of a glove-maker from Stratford-upon-Avon who attended the local grammar school. As an aside, the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s destroyed centuries old grammar schools in the name of Marxist dogma.
    Apart from that little 'upstart crow' contemporary rant, very little is known about Shakespeare's London days, and what he did before becoming a major playwright. Many have surmised that he was, himself, an actor. It is also surmised that Shakespeare picked up a great deal of his maritime, geographical etc references by mixing with people in the thriving London tavern life of the day.

  • @anonymous
    @Tiny Duck

    Collided with Russia? Ouch, must have hurt.

    Come on, admit it, you're really one of us deplorables.

    Replies: @Kyle a

    No she isn’t.

  • @Mr. Anon
    "The blackest thing ever happened on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania."

    Indeed it did.

    Jed Esty - your heart is burst, you have lost half your soul. Even now, now, very now, an old black lesbian is replacing your white bard.

    Replies: @Rob Lee, @Olorin

    No no NO Mr. Anon!

    You have to respond to those who still believe in the relevancy of the dead white scribblers like this:

    Jed Esty – your heart
    is burst, you have
    lost half your soul.
    Even now,
    now,
    very now,
    an old black lesbian
    is replacing
    your white bard.

    Now THAT is delivered in the truest of the blackest! (I believe “technical mastery” is how Lorde’s work is described…)

  • Rather than get bogged down on Shakespeare (and who wrote what), let’s turn our attention to our own Shakespeare, I mean, Ta Nehisi Coates, and his latest spectacular retrospective on the Obama presidency, entitled — wait for it — “My President Was Black”

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/01/my-president-was-black/508793/

    • Replies: @Connecticut Famer
    @SPMoore8

    Thanks for this. I was wondering where Genius Coates was hiding.

    , @bomag
    @SPMoore8

    I happened to catch NPR's breathless interview with Genius this morning. He said something like, "until this election, I had no idea the depth of White supremacy in this country."

    Yeah, a guy who has spent his career observing and chronicling, is caught flat footed, so, surprise surprise, we have to root and hack even harder until the warm glow of racial happiness descends on us all.

    Replies: @Spotted Toad

    , @Ivy
    @SPMoore8

    Tennessee Overcoat will be hung up in the closet soon after January 20. The primary reason for his presence was the election of Obama. They both had their 15 minutes of fame.

    Now that that lamentable O period is ending, normal people will be more free to move and think about the country.

  • I enjoyed Stephen Greenblatt’s “Will in the World,” which puts our limited knowledge of his biography alongside more general social history of the time and uses it to analyze the plays. Even if you don’t agree with every argument in the book, you walk away with a better sense of how Shakespeare fit into his time.

    As for the U Penn thing, I always wonder about a point Steve has brought up a few times, which is why there’s such a huge market for this stuff. That is, why aren’t there more fancy colleges where “Shakespeare was a great writer,” isn’t really a live source of debate? You’d think that the market would segment out into a SJW-friendly and an SJW unfriendly section, or that some parents would push their kids towards something structured and traditional. But while I’m sure UVA is still different from Oberlin, it’s all one continuum, and the humanities in particular looks equally politicized practically everywhere. (Actually, Penn at least used to have a reputation as fratty and jocky and apolitical relative to its peer schools.)

    The obvious answer I guess is that the schools have settled on this kind of thing (the spirit of Audra Lorde hanging over them, benignly or in punishing rage) as the moral justification for the school in the first place. Why does U Penn’s endowment get to have bazillions of dollars in the bank? Because they listen sympathetically to black kids when they do stuff like this rather than punish them or even openly disagree, the way the Princeton President and dean just listened and nodded when kids took over their office to yell at them about Woodrow Wilson last year. Heresy is more of a threat to the medieval church than simony, and so forth. But it still seems odd that there’s not more market segmentation. I guess if you’re a kid with interest and ability in books, there’s just never a point at which its better to go to a lower ranked school offering a more traditional curriculum rather than go to an Ivy where they’re tearing down Shakespeare, and in practice all the straight white males have already left the English department anyways.

    • Replies: @Buck Turgidson
    @Spotted Toad

    Is Penn Ivy League? (ha ha)

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @Desiderius
    @Spotted Toad


    That is, why aren’t there more fancy colleges where “Shakespeare was a great writer,” isn’t really a live source of debate?
     
    It's not really at Penn either, it's just that it's beside the point.

    Great writing is superfluous shading toward inimical to what they are in fact about.
    , @Lord Jeff Sessions
    @Spotted Toad


    I guess if you’re a kid with interest and ability in books, there’s just never a point at which its better to go to a lower ranked school offering a more traditional curriculum rather than go to an Ivy where they’re tearing down Shakespeare, and in practice all the straight white males have already left the English department anyways.
     
    I've never me someone who chosen to matriculate into a college other than the most prestigious school he has been admitted to. Things like political climate are negligible; what matters far more than anything else is how elite the school is. For instance, in high school I knew a girl who got into Duke (#8 on US News) and Brown (#14 on US News), and she chose Duke. But, when Yale let her via wait-list, she changed to Yale (#3 on US News).

    Replies: @MC

  • @Dave Pinsen
    A suitable prank at this point would be to replace the pic of Lorde with one of the eponymous young white Kiwi songstress.

    Replies: @Johnny Smoggins, @The Plutonium Kid

    …or Harambe if one were feeling particularly puckish.

    • Replies: @frayedthread
    @Johnny Smoggins

    Gentle Anthropoid American literary giants fully back this inquest into the changing nature of authorship.

  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Foreign Expert
    Could Shakespeare have been an admiralty lawyer, given the many maritime references in his places?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Very little is known about the life of Shakespeare. There is absolutely no evidence that he ever practised law.
    What is known, however, is that Shakespeare was the son of a glove-maker from Stratford-upon-Avon who attended the local grammar school. As an aside, the Labour governments of the 1960s and 1970s destroyed centuries old grammar schools in the name of Marxist dogma.
    Apart from that little ‘upstart crow’ contemporary rant, very little is known about Shakespeare’s London days, and what he did before becoming a major playwright. Many have surmised that he was, himself, an actor. It is also surmised that Shakespeare picked up a great deal of his maritime, geographical etc references by mixing with people in the thriving London tavern life of the day.

  • @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/808407221616918528

    Replies: @Anon, @snorlax, @MikeJa, @antipater_1

    I went to the yahoo page for LMT. At the highest resolution a single pixel is 6 minutes. Most likely it’s just a graph drawing bug

  • What did Shakespeare ever do for the English language? Out, damned spot.

  • @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    Whatever it costs to bribe the blacks to move to their own separate homeland is worth it; no price is too high to achieve this goal.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @MBlanc46

    In all seriousness, this really is what separate countries are for. Blacks resent and are uncomfortable with white history, white culture and white heroes, much as I would feel if forced to hear rap everywhere I went, read slam poetry, and pretend I admired Mumia Abu-Jamal.

    Blacks chafe constantly under white-run society. They regard it as uptight and pretentious at best, and unjust and oppressive at worst. There are probably not two more immiscible races on Earth than African-descended and Anglo-European-descended. Unfortunately we’re all trapped in a bubble of liberal delusion at this point, and the more it becomes obvious that the two cultures need to go their separate ways, the more frantic the efforts to make this misbegotten marriage work. And as if that weren’t enough, we insist on importing millions more browner, cheaper, resentful people on which to lavish our affections.

    In the demotic State, this conciliatory process only goes in one direction. White high culture is disappearing, withdrawing into high-IQ redoubts. We are now in the Christmas season, and getting our perennial dose of every song and sacred hymn rendered into R & B or Gospel.

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @ice hole
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    "You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence.... It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated." -- Abraham Lincoln, speech to a group of black freedmen in Washington D.C., August 1862

    , @Corvinus
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    "In all seriousness, this really is what separate countries are for."

    America since it's inception has never been a "one racial horse" town. It is separated by race, religion, and political ideology, but bound by an unnerving resolve by its citizens to remain as one.

    "Blacks resent and are uncomfortable with white history, white culture and white heroes, much as I would feel if forced to hear rap everywhere I went, read slam poetry, and pretend I admired Mumia Abu-Jamal."

    Some blacks feel this way, as demonstrated by this cultural appropriation by a group that represents the Coalition of the Left Fringe group.

    "There are probably not two more immiscible races on Earth than African-descended and Anglo-European-descended."

    I applaud your tendency to wildly exaggerate matters. Remember, however, you invaded and invited the darkies to the party in the first place for their labor.

    "Unfortunately we’re all trapped in a bubble of liberal delusion at this point, and the more it becomes obvious that the two cultures need to go their separate ways, the more frantic the efforts to make this misbegotten marriage work."

    It's delusion all right, one of epic proportions on your part to keep insisting that blacks and whites remain separate.

    "White high culture is disappearing, withdrawing into high-IQ redoubts."

    White high culture is actually flourishing. Go read Vox Day's blog for a preview.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

  • I’ve read every book Ms. Lorde has ever written. If you’re into subliterate black lesbian commies, Audre’s your girl! Er, non-binary genderqueer womyn…

    • LOL: Buffalo Joe
  • @AKAHorace
    @Mr. Anon

    Was he the greatest phrase maker because he was William Shakespeare, or because he was writing at a time when the language was changing quickly ? Is he so much better than Marlowe and others of his time ?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cletus Rothschild, @Mr. Anon, @res

    “Was he the greatest phrase maker because he was William Shakespeare, or because he was writing at a time when the language was changing quickly ?”

    You could ask the same question about the advances that The Beatles had in rock music and recording techniques and the answer is the same: it doesn’t matter, because Shakespeare and The Beatles are the ones who were creative enough to make the advance happen when and how they happened. It’s their fingerprints all over them, not someone eles’s.

  • @Spotted Toad
    I enjoyed Stephen Greenblatt's "Will in the World," which puts our limited knowledge of his biography alongside more general social history of the time and uses it to analyze the plays. Even if you don't agree with every argument in the book, you walk away with a better sense of how Shakespeare fit into his time.

    As for the U Penn thing, I always wonder about a point Steve has brought up a few times, which is why there's such a huge market for this stuff. That is, why aren't there more fancy colleges where "Shakespeare was a great writer," isn't really a live source of debate? You'd think that the market would segment out into a SJW-friendly and an SJW unfriendly section, or that some parents would push their kids towards something structured and traditional. But while I'm sure UVA is still different from Oberlin, it's all one continuum, and the humanities in particular looks equally politicized practically everywhere. (Actually, Penn at least used to have a reputation as fratty and jocky and apolitical relative to its peer schools.)

    The obvious answer I guess is that the schools have settled on this kind of thing (the spirit of Audra Lorde hanging over them, benignly or in punishing rage) as the moral justification for the school in the first place. Why does U Penn's endowment get to have bazillions of dollars in the bank? Because they listen sympathetically to black kids when they do stuff like this rather than punish them or even openly disagree, the way the Princeton President and dean just listened and nodded when kids took over their office to yell at them about Woodrow Wilson last year. Heresy is more of a threat to the medieval church than simony, and so forth. But it still seems odd that there's not more market segmentation. I guess if you're a kid with interest and ability in books, there's just never a point at which its better to go to a lower ranked school offering a more traditional curriculum rather than go to an Ivy where they're tearing down Shakespeare, and in practice all the straight white males have already left the English department anyways.

    Replies: @Buck Turgidson, @Desiderius, @Lord Jeff Sessions

    Is Penn Ivy League? (ha ha)

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Buck Turgidson


    Is Penn Ivy League?
     
    Yes, too much so.

    Replies: @Buck Turgidson

  • @The Anti-Gnostic
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    In all seriousness, this really is what separate countries are for. Blacks resent and are uncomfortable with white history, white culture and white heroes, much as I would feel if forced to hear rap everywhere I went, read slam poetry, and pretend I admired Mumia Abu-Jamal.

    Blacks chafe constantly under white-run society. They regard it as uptight and pretentious at best, and unjust and oppressive at worst. There are probably not two more immiscible races on Earth than African-descended and Anglo-European-descended. Unfortunately we're all trapped in a bubble of liberal delusion at this point, and the more it becomes obvious that the two cultures need to go their separate ways, the more frantic the efforts to make this misbegotten marriage work. And as if that weren't enough, we insist on importing millions more browner, cheaper, resentful people on which to lavish our affections.

    In the demotic State, this conciliatory process only goes in one direction. White high culture is disappearing, withdrawing into high-IQ redoubts. We are now in the Christmas season, and getting our perennial dose of every song and sacred hymn rendered into R & B or Gospel.

    Replies: @ice hole, @Corvinus

    “You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence…. It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated.” — Abraham Lincoln, speech to a group of black freedmen in Washington D.C., August 1862

  • Shakespeare would have been an AMAZING rapper if he was born in this era. Shame he wasn’t….

    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
    @Danindc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcLtFJsV-1o

    , @anon
    @Danindc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_auc2Z67OM

  • @Tiny Duck
    there is a whole lot of speculation as to whether or not Shakespeare wrote any of the works attributed to him anyway. Nevertheless, good move.

    Shakespeare is lauded everywhere so I don't get the big deal. People of Color have been overlooked for far too long

    white mediocrity is deemed worth more than the real blood, sweat, and tears of People of Color

    Most People of Color agree with this action. That tells you something right there

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @PSR, @Mr. Anon, @Authenticjazzman, @Cloudbuster, @Johanus de Morgateroyde, @Daniel Chieh, @Lagertha

    ” Shakespeare is lauded everywhere so I don’t get the big deal”

    You don’t get the big deal because you are not endowed with the intelligence required to comprehend his works.

    “People of color have been overlooked for far too long”.

    BS, I am sure that you have never heard a recording of Charlie Parker or John Coltrane in your entire existance, these being great artists which have been ” Overlooked” by yourself.

    You are a charlatan, and everything you post is unadulterated nonsense.

    Authenticjazzman, “Mensa” society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

  • “It is a cool example of culture jamming,”

    English major eh?

    And who, pray tell, is “Andre Lorde”?

  • @SPMoore8
    Rather than get bogged down on Shakespeare (and who wrote what), let's turn our attention to our own Shakespeare, I mean, Ta Nehisi Coates, and his latest spectacular retrospective on the Obama presidency, entitled -- wait for it -- "My President Was Black"

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/01/my-president-was-black/508793/

    Replies: @Connecticut Famer, @bomag, @Ivy

    Thanks for this. I was wondering where Genius Coates was hiding.

  • @Jefferson
    "And that’s what really matters in Ivy League English Departments, not who is better at English:"

    Ebonics is English you racist White supremacist. Ebonics is just English with a different accent just like New York English, New Jersey English, Boston English, Southern U.S English, Australian English, Kiwi English, Scottish English, Jamaican English, etc. Sorry not everybody speaks English with a neutral generic accent like you.

    Replies: @TGGP, @Authenticjazzman, @SFG

    ” Ebonics is English you racist White supremacist.”

    Yeah sure it is, only difference is that it is English reduced down to a maximum of fifty words.

    Authenticjazzman, “Mensa” Society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

  • @bored identity
    @Desiderius

    'cuz he white, a'ight ?!

    Replies: @Desiderius

    They’ve been out of the Shakespeare business for a long time. They’re now feeling their oats enough to let it be widely known. It’s is at least somewhat on us that it wasn’t already.

    The business they are in is impeding the traditional means of social mobility (such as liberal education – there is a reason Shakespeare drew huge crowds in both the pit and the box) in order to enhance the value of the illegitimate means of advancement they exclusively sell.

  • @Buck Turgidson
    @Spotted Toad

    Is Penn Ivy League? (ha ha)

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Is Penn Ivy League?

    Yes, too much so.

    • Replies: @Buck Turgidson
    @Desiderius

    Pat smart/dumb aleck comment upon meeting a grad of Columbia, Harvard, etc. -- "Isn't that an Ivy League school?"

  • @Danindc
    Shakespeare would have been an AMAZING rapper if he was born in this era. Shame he wasn't....

    Replies: @TelfoedJohn, @anon

  • “For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house.”

    That doesn’t even make sense as a metaphor.

  • @Spotted Toad
    I enjoyed Stephen Greenblatt's "Will in the World," which puts our limited knowledge of his biography alongside more general social history of the time and uses it to analyze the plays. Even if you don't agree with every argument in the book, you walk away with a better sense of how Shakespeare fit into his time.

    As for the U Penn thing, I always wonder about a point Steve has brought up a few times, which is why there's such a huge market for this stuff. That is, why aren't there more fancy colleges where "Shakespeare was a great writer," isn't really a live source of debate? You'd think that the market would segment out into a SJW-friendly and an SJW unfriendly section, or that some parents would push their kids towards something structured and traditional. But while I'm sure UVA is still different from Oberlin, it's all one continuum, and the humanities in particular looks equally politicized practically everywhere. (Actually, Penn at least used to have a reputation as fratty and jocky and apolitical relative to its peer schools.)

    The obvious answer I guess is that the schools have settled on this kind of thing (the spirit of Audra Lorde hanging over them, benignly or in punishing rage) as the moral justification for the school in the first place. Why does U Penn's endowment get to have bazillions of dollars in the bank? Because they listen sympathetically to black kids when they do stuff like this rather than punish them or even openly disagree, the way the Princeton President and dean just listened and nodded when kids took over their office to yell at them about Woodrow Wilson last year. Heresy is more of a threat to the medieval church than simony, and so forth. But it still seems odd that there's not more market segmentation. I guess if you're a kid with interest and ability in books, there's just never a point at which its better to go to a lower ranked school offering a more traditional curriculum rather than go to an Ivy where they're tearing down Shakespeare, and in practice all the straight white males have already left the English department anyways.

    Replies: @Buck Turgidson, @Desiderius, @Lord Jeff Sessions

    That is, why aren’t there more fancy colleges where “Shakespeare was a great writer,” isn’t really a live source of debate?

    It’s not really at Penn either, it’s just that it’s beside the point.

    Great writing is superfluous shading toward inimical to what they are in fact about.

  • @Tiny Duck
    there is a whole lot of speculation as to whether or not Shakespeare wrote any of the works attributed to him anyway. Nevertheless, good move.

    Shakespeare is lauded everywhere so I don't get the big deal. People of Color have been overlooked for far too long

    white mediocrity is deemed worth more than the real blood, sweat, and tears of People of Color

    Most People of Color agree with this action. That tells you something right there

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @PSR, @Mr. Anon, @Authenticjazzman, @Cloudbuster, @Johanus de Morgateroyde, @Daniel Chieh, @Lagertha

    When a Black produces something comparable to Shakespeare, then he can receive equal reverence.

    A mediocre diversity-checkbox-er does not compare.

    I went and looked up possible worthy Black authors for this post and, wow, the pickings are pretty thin. The most cited — Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, W.E.B. Dubois, Frederick Douglas, etc. — are all pretty much still in the ghetto — famous for being Black and/or writing about the Black experience.

    You’re really not ready for the canon until your race is incidental to the quality of your work, not integral to it.

    Women did it — we have many women who are simply famous for being good writers not “good female writers.”

    • Replies: @Johnny Smoggins
    @Cloudbuster

    "Women did it — we have many women who are simply famous for being good writers not “good female writers.”

    Really? So where have they been hiding all these centuries?

    Replies: @guest

  • @JohnnyD
    I guess these students aren't real big fans of George Orwell...

    Replies: @bomag

    I was thinking that the appropriate portrait would be a boot coming down on a human face…

  • @Jefferson
    "Monique Judge is black,"

    Even without the picture the name Monique is a dead giveaway that she is Black. I have never met a White woman named Monique, just like I've never met a Black woman named Becky.

    Replies: @SD, @Chris Mallory

    “I have never met a White woman named Monique, just like I’ve never met a Black woman named Becky.”

    Among American women maybe. Monique is a fairly common name among Dutch, Belgian and French women.

  • @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/808407221616918528

    Replies: @Anon, @snorlax, @MikeJa, @antipater_1

    How the hell does Putin keep doing it?!

  • @countenance
    With the ferocity they tore Shakespeare's portrait down, you would have thought it was a Confederate Battle Flag.

    Replies: @jake, @Neoconned

    Same difference.

    As Sam Francis, following up on the views of many predecessors, wrote repeatedly: hatred for, even tolerance of hatred for, things Confederate and white Southern would eventually be exposed as war against all things white.

    If you lack the brains and/or balls to defend Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and Jefferson Davis; the Sons of Confederate Veterans, the United Daughters of the Confederacy, and John C. Calhoun – then you lack what it takes to defend Davy Crockett and the men who died at the Alamo, as well as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson and James K. Polk.

    When you cannot defend, and promote, Southern literature, then you help the subsequent war to remove even Shakespeare.

    • Replies: @WorkingClass
    @jake


    When you cannot defend, and promote, Southern literature, then you help the subsequent war to remove even Shakespeare.
     
    True and well said Mr. Jake.
  • Shakespeare, who the F cares? Did the BBC really chuck Jeremy Clarkson and the Top Gear crew? Over political correctness?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @George

    Apparently, Clarkson punched an Irish BBC staffer in the face and called him an opprobious name because his dinner, after a hard day's shooting, was late.

    Replies: @Pericles

  • @AKAHorace
    @Mr. Anon

    Was he the greatest phrase maker because he was William Shakespeare, or because he was writing at a time when the language was changing quickly ? Is he so much better than Marlowe and others of his time ?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cletus Rothschild, @Mr. Anon, @res

    I say he is the greatest phrase maker, because quotes of his permeate our culture, even to this day.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @AKAHorace

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn't a high prestige field. It's kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn't hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.

    Replies: @JimB, @keypusher, @Daniel Williams, @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @guest, @guest

    You’re channeling Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure, a timeless movie classic.

  • @Jefferson
    "Monique Judge is black,"

    Even without the picture the name Monique is a dead giveaway that she is Black. I have never met a White woman named Monique, just like I've never met a Black woman named Becky.

    Replies: @SD, @Chris Mallory

    Of the 4 black girls in my high school graduating class, one was named “Heather”, another “Monica”. A third was named “Garry Lynn”, she was round as wide as she was tall. I don’t remember the 4th’s name.

  • @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/808476572529360897

    Trump derangement syndrome in action.

    Replies: @Amasius, @fish, @guest, @Hubbub

    Uh oh! That’s the Olberman serious face……shit’s getting real now!

  • “A policeman who shot down a ten year old in Queens
    stood over the boy with his cop shoes in childish blood
    and a voice said “Die you little motherfucker” and
    there are tapes to prove it. At his trial
    this policeman said in his own defense
    “I didn’t notice the size nor nothing else
    only the color”. And
    there are tapes to prove that, too.”

    Audre Lorde, Power

    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/53918

    Either there are tapes to prove it or this is straightforward blood libel.

    • Replies: @bomag
    @Desiderius


    or this is straightforward blood libel.
     
    She will no doubt claim artistic license.

    That disgusting poem is nothing but psychological projection: she is upset because she thinks White people can kill without consequence, and that is the Power she desires.
  • @Desiderius
    @Buck Turgidson


    Is Penn Ivy League?
     
    Yes, too much so.

    Replies: @Buck Turgidson

    Pat smart/dumb aleck comment upon meeting a grad of Columbia, Harvard, etc. — “Isn’t that an Ivy League school?”

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    Shakespeare might have been a law clerk.

    A huge fraction of the great writers and composers in European history studied and/or worked in the law. It's probably the second most common intended career of famous guys whose didn't follow their dad into his art. A very common story is Dad ordering Junior to go into the law because it pays well, and Junior complaining that it's boring. It comes up over and over in the lives of famous (non-visual) artists across hundreds of years of European history. (Visual artists, in contrast, typically apprenticed young into painting or sculpting.)

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Amasius, @FPD72, @I, Libertine, @whorefinder, @Kylie

    Both Martin Luther and John Calvin studied and prepared for a career in law as well before turning to theological pursuits.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @FPD72

    This coincidence becomes less of a miracle if you consider, that there wasn't much that they could have studied instead.

  • The blackest thing ever happened on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania

    No, the blackest thing was when some grad student didn’t give up his wallet fast enough and his mugger shot and killed him. Ever since then, Penn has security guards posted on every street corner on the campus and 5 blocks out into the surrounding “community” (ghetto). This costs them millions of $ every year but moving out of the city or becoming a school that whites and Asians are afraid to attend would have cost them billions.

    Notice that she doesn’t say that this is the best thing, just the blackest. Even she doesn’t have the balls to claim that Lorde is a better poet than Shakespeare.

    The problem with playing “the blackest” game is that Monique and these “black” Penn students ain’t very black – on any street corner in W. Philly you could find ten brothas who are blacker than they are, inside and out. In fact, they pull these stunts BECAUSE they are insecure about their own blackness – even with affirmative action, in order to make it into the Penn English Dept. you have to use a lot of the “master’s tools” and Monique looks like she is a good 50% white (there is enough Monique to make two reasonable size women, one white and one black). So if the criteria for canonization is “who is the blackest” then someone is going to tear down Lorde’s picture and put up cop killer Abu Jamal’s. Contests like these quickly turn into races to the bottom and those who start the contest rarely make it to the finish line. The revolution always eats its own.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    @Jack D

    The revolution won't be televised, but it might be Snapchatted, Instagrammed or otherwise mediaized.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Jack D

    Jack, Philly can be a shithole city. A few weeks ago roaming bands of blacks harassed and beat Temple University students, both male and female, punching and stomping them. I have a violent temper when left unchecked and I've floored more than a few A-holes, but I never stomped on anyone, who would do that to a girl? Such animalistic anger.

    Replies: @Kylie

  • @Daniel H
    @Anonymous

    >>We’ve reached peak leftism.

    Nope, there is still a long, long way down, and we will surely get there, sooner or later.

    Replies: @bomag

    there is still a long, long way down

    Indeed.

    Such self-annihilating doomsday cults like nothing better than to signal their virtue by giving it all for the cause.

  • @Desiderius
    "A policeman who shot down a ten year old in Queens
    stood over the boy with his cop shoes in childish blood
    and a voice said “Die you little motherfucker” and
    there are tapes to prove it. At his trial
    this policeman said in his own defense
    “I didn't notice the size nor nothing else
    only the color”. And
    there are tapes to prove that, too."

    Audre Lorde, Power

    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/53918

    Either there are tapes to prove it or this is straightforward blood libel.

    Replies: @bomag

    or this is straightforward blood libel.

    She will no doubt claim artistic license.

    That disgusting poem is nothing but psychological projection: she is upset because she thinks White people can kill without consequence, and that is the Power she desires.

  • @Opinionator
    @syonredux

    What do you like about The Tempest?

    Replies: @syonredux, @Mike Sylwester, @Sayless

    What do you like about The Tempest?

    The play teaches us to make what we can from our brief, mystical existence.

    Prospero, born a duke, has been overthrown and exiled with his child-daughter to an island. There, Prospero develops magical powers and develops a kingdom populated by a few strange creatures. Eventually Prospero manages to marry his daughter to a nice young man who has been shipwrecked to the same island. Finally, Prospero is satisfied by his daughter’s happiness, and so he retires from his magical kingship. He sums up his acquired philosophy as follows:

    Our revels now are ended.
    These our actors, as I foretold you,
    Were all spirits and are melted into air,
    Into thin air.

    And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
    The cloud-capp’d towers, the gorgeous palaces,
    The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
    Ye all which it inherit, shall dissolve.

    And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
    Leave not a rack behind.

    We are such stuff
    As dreams are made on, and our little life
    Is rounded with a sleep.

    Life is an illusion, but it includes moments of happiness — such as helping our children to succeed us.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Mike Sylwester

    That's very well-summarized; thanks.

    , @SFG
    @Mike Sylwester

    It's also his last play, so there's suspicion it may have been a speech saying goodbye to the theater.

  • @SPMoore8
    Rather than get bogged down on Shakespeare (and who wrote what), let's turn our attention to our own Shakespeare, I mean, Ta Nehisi Coates, and his latest spectacular retrospective on the Obama presidency, entitled -- wait for it -- "My President Was Black"

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/01/my-president-was-black/508793/

    Replies: @Connecticut Famer, @bomag, @Ivy

    I happened to catch NPR’s breathless interview with Genius this morning. He said something like, “until this election, I had no idea the depth of White supremacy in this country.”

    Yeah, a guy who has spent his career observing and chronicling, is caught flat footed, so, surprise surprise, we have to root and hack even harder until the warm glow of racial happiness descends on us all.

    • Replies: @Spotted Toad
    @bomag

    It occurs to me that the "Tragedy of History" approach that Ta Nehisi Coates takes is basically a mirror image of a biological determinist approach; in both cases, there is nothing to be done, our failures are preordained, and in fact biological determinism *is* historical determinism, since the evolutionary differentiation of different human groups occurred in time, and maybe not all that distant time. Coates's answer allows for the allocation of moral responsibility exclusively on one group, corrupted by the taint of white supremacy, of course.

    The funny part is that a substantial number of counties went twice for Obama and then for Trump (against a white woman) and somehow that shows the depth of white supremacy. More generally, I am beginning to suspect that the idolization of people like Coates has less to do with the specific grievances of black Americans than the desire to use black suffering as an engine to pull along the train of Diversity; why else would the victory of an arguably anti-Muslim and anti-Mexican candidate be so relentlessly described by Bouie and Coates as anti-black? The actual black voters in Milwaukee didn't show up to vote for Hillary.

  • @Desiderius
    @Anonymous


    We’ve reached peak leftism.
     
    They're just getting warmed up.

    It won't peak until they have to come to terms with real, personal defeat.

    Replies: @Prof. Woland, @NOTA

    Our comedians and actors have failed us as well so perhaps this attack on Shakespeare is fitting. In a healthy non-fearful society they would be the first line of defense against such silly assertions. Public chiding and gentle humiliations should be enough to discourage this type of stupidity and give heart to the school administrators to prevent themselves from being pissed all over by their students. But like some autoimmune dysfunction, our national joke and story tellers are the most heavily infected with the disorder to the point that they would rather not be funny than say something that puts them at risk. They are the last one’s to get the joke.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Prof. Woland


    Our comedians and actors have failed us as well so perhaps this attack on Shakespeare is fitting.
     
    Funny you should mention that. I agree with Scorsese. I used to love movies. Ain't been to one in a long time.

    One part of that is now I see outspoken actor/actressess I've grown to despise from seeing them going off on whatever news or talk show, and find it impossible to watch a movie with them in it. I can't get the stupid things they say in real life out of my head.

    I truly believe they don't get how much they're despised by a significant number of americans. Even after this election, they just keep going on. If I were an actor, whether I was on the left or right, I'd review my job description, and I would be shutting the fuck up.

    Sooner or later, their rhetoric will catch up with them, and shorten their careers. In the meantime, it's fucking up the movie experience, as well as the general entertainment experience for me. Even Neil Young is pissing me off, and I loved the guy! David Crosby has totally fucked CSNY for me for eternity.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/martin-scorsese-silence-new-films-disposable-over-saturation-press-conference-a7471996.html

  • @George
    Shakespeare, who the F cares? Did the BBC really chuck Jeremy Clarkson and the Top Gear crew? Over political correctness?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Apparently, Clarkson punched an Irish BBC staffer in the face and called him an opprobious name because his dinner, after a hard day’s shooting, was late.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Anonymous

    I'm sure the Irish are mortified that the staffer didn't ground and pound old Clarkson, Trayvon-like, until pulled away by the other two. Clarkson then would have done the next shoot with a nice, bold shiner, and ratings would have skyrocketed.

  • @AKAHorace
    Off topic, but of interest.

    Anna Di Franco's argument for/against the Electoral college.

    http://www.salon.com/2016/12/13/ani-difranco-we-the-people-are-in-charge-and-we-can-insist-the-electoral-college-voters-save-our-democracy/


    A functioning media does not simply spread lies or amplify would-be dictators because it’s good for ratings. The media is in many ways complicit in, if not responsible for, the Trump phenomenon. The overwhelming support of him by the media, intentional or not, has driven and will continue to drive our relationship with the man.

    [exised]

    Enough citizens working in the media must acknowledge the existence of the Electoral College to inspire enough other citizens to call their state assembly members, contact their electors, march on their state capitols and demand that the Electoral College fulfill its suddenly crucial duty of oversight. We need a critical mass of citizens to demand that the Electoral College provide the antidote to the very disease it created.

    Then, I believe, we should abolish it once and for all before it can wreak such havoc again. The Electoral College is an undemocratic convolution that stands between us and the concept of one person, one vote that Americans live by. It is the reason that we are in this mess to begin. It is, ironically, the only thing now that can get us out. We should use it to correct its mistake and then we should remove it from obstructing direct democracy in the future.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Buffalo Joe

    You can be sure that if Hillary had won in the Electoral College but lost the popular vote that this same writer would be defending to the death this valuable Constitutional check on the rabble as a cornerstone of our freedom. It’s all who-whom with them. They are all still in various stages of grief and keep imagining various ways to cheat the Grim Reaper – they will demand a recount, they will convince the electors to become faithless, they will amend the Constitution so this won’t happen again, etc. After Jan. 20 they will demand that Trump be impeached every time he sneezes or tweets. It will all go nowhere. Feel free to ignore them.

  • @Trelane
    “We invite everyone to join us in the task of critical thinking..."

    Critical thinking is quite different from systems thinking. Siskel and Ebert versus Einstein and Feynman I'd say. Thumbs up and thumbs down is the hallmark of critical thinking; "Noticing things" is a feature of systems thinking; . A mon Avis

    Also I point to The Times for this unexpected article that is right up iSteve Alley.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/three-year-olds-can-be-identified-as-criminals-of-the-future-5vwwf8lkq

    Replies: @Trelane, @res, @guest

    Thanks for that The Times link!

    The full paper behind that The Times article is available at http://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-016-0005

    Here is an iSteve article from two years ago about the Dunedin Study: https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-dunedin-study-nature-nurture-over-40-years/

    And here is a link to James Thompson’s blog (mentioned by Steve) calling out an early keynote speech about this paper: http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.com/2014/12/attending-conferences-test-of.html

    Hopefully Dr. Thompson and/or Steve will comment on the current paper.

    More about the Dunedin Study and its members: http://dunedinstudy.otago.ac.nz/studies/assessment-phases/the-study-members

    Regarding the paper:

    I thought Figure 4 did a good job of showing the dramatic cost differences between the high cost (22% of subjects) and the low cost (30%) groups.

    There is more detail in the supplementary materials PDF including this:

    The dataset reported in the current article is not publicly available due to lack of informed consent and ethical approval, but is available from the corresponding author on reasonable request by qualified scientists.

    Page 9 of the SM had an interesting table of social cost category burden by sex. Not surprising that men dominated (~75%) crime and injury claims, but I was a bit surprised by how much women dominated hospital stays and prescription fills (by 71/63%).

    Page 7 of the SM has details of the age 3 test(s) they used.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @res

    Thanks, I'll post.

  • @Barnard
    Roll over Ben Franklin. This could possibly cause a few more white men donating big money to schools like Penn to realize that their donations are being used against them. Although if they haven't figured that out yet, I don't know what it would take.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Percy Gryce

    Yep. It’s hard to believe that these idiots, er, uh, college presidents, did not notice what happened to enrollment, alumni giving, etc. at U Missouri.

    A few high profile student expulsions and faculty firings would nip this in the bud. Start with cuck Jed Esty. What kind of name is that?

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Jim Don Bob


    Yep. It’s hard to believe that these idiots, er, uh, college presidents, did not notice what happened to enrollment, alumni giving, etc. at U Missouri.

     

    Unfortunately, in American higher ed, what's happened to U Missouri means little (my apologies to any UM grads who might be reading, but this is true of the vast majority of American colleges and universities). Yes, some administrators at similar places might worry about something like this happening on their turf, but the forces pushing them ever leftward are still much stronger.

    No, real change will come about only when someplace that sets the tone takes a hit, and that's limited to maybe 40-50 names at most -- likely even fewer.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @The Last Real Calvinist

  • @Steve Sailer
    @AKAHorace

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn't a high prestige field. It's kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn't hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.

    Replies: @JimB, @keypusher, @Daniel Williams, @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @guest, @guest

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn’t a high prestige field.

    It’s a little more complicated than than. Yes, actors were considered little better than criminals, but on the other hand Shakespeare’s company appeared regularly before Queen Elizabeth and then King James. They were called the Lord Chamberlain’s Men, and then the King’s Men, and it wasn’t just a figure of speech.

    A number of books gathering examples of fine writing were published in London around 1600. Non-dramatic poets got the most citations, but playwrights also got plenty of quotes, and Shakespeare by far the most among playwrights (of course Venus and Adonis and The Rape of Lucrece got cited too). Plays (especially Shakespeare’s) were a staple in the bookshops.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn’t hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    That’s fair. His reputation in the 17th century is hard to get a handle on. Bentley wrote a book arguing that Jonson had a better reputation among writers, but the publication data indicates pretty clearly that Shakespeare remained much more popular among readers. Different critics had different favorites, but my sense is that there was no consensus that Shakespeare was better than Jonson or Beaumont and Fletcher. Interestingly, Dryden said that Beaumont and Fletcher were better at portraying gentlemen, evidently because they came from a higher social class.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @keypusher

    Probably Shakespeare was a fairly big pop culture figure in his time who got invited to a lot of aristocratic get-togethers, although kind of a behind the scenes figure for the people in the know, but few at the time expected his work to last.

    Perhaps Swedish pop songwriter Max Martin might be a present day analog. He's clearly the top man in his field and respected by other top people, although he's not as famous with the general public as the stars he writes for. But nobody expects his songs to be remembered in 400 years.

    Granted, many of my speculations about Shakespeare are influenced by "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure ..." where Bill and Ted's future heavy metal band Wyyyld Stallions are the basis of the culture of the 27th Century.

    Replies: @Ttjy, @Njguy73

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    Shakespeare might have been a law clerk.

    A huge fraction of the great writers and composers in European history studied and/or worked in the law. It's probably the second most common intended career of famous guys whose didn't follow their dad into his art. A very common story is Dad ordering Junior to go into the law because it pays well, and Junior complaining that it's boring. It comes up over and over in the lives of famous (non-visual) artists across hundreds of years of European history. (Visual artists, in contrast, typically apprenticed young into painting or sculpting.)

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Amasius, @FPD72, @I, Libertine, @whorefinder, @Kylie

    For most of the “might haves” or “must haves” we have for William Shakspere (or Shagsper, or other variations of the spelling on his six extant signatures, none of them “Shakespeare”) of Stratford, we have “definitely did” for Edward DeVere. Intimate knowledge of the language of law is one of them, requiring Stratfordians to include “service as a law clerk” as one of the many things he “must have” or at least “might have” done during the lost years.

    If you really want to get a feel for how deeply the language of the law is ingrained into the speech of Shakespeare’s characters, check out the work Sir George Greenwood.

    As a salient example, I quote Mistress Page from The Merry Wives of Windsor:

    The spirit of wantonness is, sure, scared out of
    him: if the devil have him not in fee-simple, with
    fine and recovery, he will never, I think, in the
    way of waste, attempt us again.

    Here is Shakespeare placing in the mouth of a housewife (indeed, a commoner) “fine and recovery,” a term for obscure legal proceeding, which she tosses out during a casual conversation.

    Shakespeare studied law, alright.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @I, Libertine

    Shakespeare learned a lot of stuff. For example, Hamlet has some astronomy in it. Shakespeare seems to have been interested in the Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe and the debates over geocentrism vs. heliocentrism. When Tom Stoppard directed the movie version of Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead with Oldman and Roth, he was into his science phase of self-education, so made the castle of Elsinore look like an observatory like Tycho's.

    Stoppard's plays have lots and lots of learned references suggesting formal study or apprenticeship in different fields, but, like Shakespeare, he never went to college.

    It would be interesting to see how far you could get developing a theory that Stoppard was just a front man for the real author of Stoppard's plays, who was actually Edward St. Aubyn or William D. Hamilton or Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones who, as we all know, faked his death in 1969 to get out of the limelight so he could concentrate on his playwrighting (notice the hair style similarities), or Dirk Bogarde or Prince Charles.

    Replies: @syonredux, @I, Libertine

    , @keypusher
    @I, Libertine

    Oh, god, not this.

    De Vere got an honorary degree as a teenager. There is no evidence that he knew much about law or anything else. His Latin was miserable. Some people seem to have gotten the idea that he was brilliant as a youth. If so, he got dropped on his head shortly after that. You can read all his letters and memos, if you can stand them, here.

    http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ahnelson/oxlets.html

    A biographer had this to say:

    Variability. Oxford had no settled way of spelling many common words: see, for example, his eleven different ways of spelling "halfpenny", or six of "buy" (also by, buye, bvy, bwy, bwye). Given his presumed legal training (for which there is in fact no solid evidence), it is noteworthy that he had no consistent way of spelling "attorney" (also atturney, atturnie, atturnye, aturnye) and had eleven different ways of spelling "suit" along with "suitor" and their plurals.

    Selective consistency. Oxford tended to write "cowld" for could, "showld" for should, and most particularly "wowld" for would (but on one occasion, he wrote "sowlde" for "should"). He almost always (and very idiosyncratically) wrote "lek" for like, not only in the simple verb, but in such combination forms as "misleke" and "leklywhodes". These spellings alone are almost enough to identify a piece of writing as his.

    Dialectal variants. Oxford uniformly wrote "oft" or "ofte" for ought (OED defines "oft" as an obsolete or dialectal form of aught, ought) and wrote "lek" for like (discussed above). He often put a "t" (sometimes "th") at the end of "although", "enough", "though", or "through". He also put a "t" at the end of "prop", spelling it "propt"; similarly, he wrote "slypte" for "slip", and "hightnes" for "highness". He usually spelled "satisfy" as "satisfise". Instead of so and so many pounds "a year", he wrote so and so many pounds "of year"; conversely, for "any kind of way" he wrote "any kind away". His spelling of like in almost all forms as "lek" and his spelling of liklihoods as "leklywhodes" and falsehood as "falswhood" reveal e-for-i and wh-for-h substitutions which are fully characteristic of the East Anglian dialect - Oxford spent his formative years in Essex and Cambridge. Clearly, Oxford habitually spoke a dialect recognized by contemporaries as provincial and even as rustic.

    Idiosyncratic substitutions. Oxford often wrote "v" for "w" or "u", resulting in the highly unusual spelling of law as "lave" and lawyers as "lavers"; see also variants of "buy" in No. 1 above.
    Spellings based on the mis-hearing of words. The most startling instance is Oxford's spelling of "stannary" as "stammerye". The "stannaries" were the tin mines, from late Latin stannum.
    Clearly, Oxford misheard the n's as m's and did not make the correction (as any person cognizant of Latin would certainly have done) from an awareness of the word's etymology. Such misheard words are legion in Oxford's letters.

    Defective Latin. When writing Latin, particularly legal Latin, Oxford frequently made serious grammatical errors and sometimes misspelled words.


    http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ahnelson/oxspell.html

    In the so-called authorship question, it's pretty simple: there's evidence that William Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the canon, and there is zero evidence for anyone else. But even if it wasn't Shakespeare of Stratford, it sure as hell wasn't the idiot Earl of Oxford.

    For much, much more, see: http://oxfraud.com/

    Replies: @I, Libertine

    , @whorefinder
    @I, Libertine

    Alternatively, he picked up knowledge merely from apprenticing in the theater.

    Too many people discount the fact that many terms and subjects Shakespeare was dealing with were already part of theater language. Plays and source material of his time already dealt with subjects such as law, religion, astronomy, war, etc. You didn't need a background in it, and if you did you could just grab someone with some knowledge of the area and pump them for some info to fill in the occasional gap.

    Picture it this way: a screenwriter today could get away with writing a Western without any first hand knowledge about being a cowboy. Why? Simple: because we have a ton of movies and books about being cowboys. He could just watch a bunch of them, read an encyclopedia entry on things he needed more info on, and then talk to a few people familiar with a few actual cowboys or cowboy historians to fill in any remaining gaps.

    Every time people say Shakespeare must have had a background in this area or that, I think of this scene from Catch Me If You Can where Leo's character Frank Abignale is a con artist, is not a pilot and has absolutely no background or ability to fly a plane, but cons the two pilots into giving him a free ride by knowing the pilot lingo cold just from listening to other pilots from before:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow8mG8qutkw

    Replies: @David, @I, Libertine

    , @dfordoom
    @I, Libertine


    Shakespeare studied law, alright.
     
    There's his famous line, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." That sounds to me like the kind of line that would really appeal to a lawyer. They tend to be amused by the fact that most people hate them. I think it strengthens the assertion that he studied law.

    Replies: @keypusher

  • @AKAHorace
    @Mr. Anon

    Was he the greatest phrase maker because he was William Shakespeare, or because he was writing at a time when the language was changing quickly ? Is he so much better than Marlowe and others of his time ?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Cletus Rothschild, @Mr. Anon, @res

    What other writers have contributions on the order of:
    http://shakespeare-online.com/biography/wordsinvented.html
    http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/phrases-sayings-shakespeare.html

    As Mr. Anon noted in his wonderful summary, the King James Bible is a worthy contender:
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2011/feb/18/phrases-king-james-bible
    but coined fewer new words (if you only follow one link here make it this one):
    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-12205084
    a good summary from that article:

    He also found that the Bible coined few new words. Shakespeare by comparison, introduced about 100 phrases into our idiom, to the Bible’s 257, but something like 1,000 new words. The English Bible introduced only 40 or so, including “battering ram” and “backsliding”.

    “This reflects their different jobs,” says Crystal. “The whole point of being a dramatist is to be original in your language. The Bible translators, in contrast, were under strict instructions not to be innovative but to look backwards to what earlier translators had done.” Earlier translators whose only concern was to translate the Bible literally.

    Also worth noting:

    “Only 18 (res: of the 257 phrases) of that total were unique to the King James Bible. It didn’t originate these usages, it acted as a kind of conduit through which they became popular. Tyndale was the number one influence.”

    P.S. You make a good point about English changing quickly at the time, but it’s hard to be sure about the direction of causality and I think a good case can be made for Shakespeare and the King James Bible solidifying the English language.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @res

    There's another important era in English literature following the copyright act of 1709 when English prose finally gets its act together with the establishment of magazines and publication of popular novels like Robinson Crusoe. The French had already developed a classic prose style a couple of generations before, but the English didn't until writers had the property rights protection to make reliable money off prose.

    Replies: @syonredux

    , @Dieter Kief
    @res

    I've had a quick look at the phrases-article on wikpedia and did check one phrase, for which they claim a shakesperen origin: To find out, that the claim is wrong.

    I know from experience, that such lists are often times just not reliable.

    My example: In the mind's eye

    One's visual memory or imagination.

    Origin

    The concept of us having an 'eye in our mind' is ancient and dates back to at least the 14th century, when Chaucer used it in The Man of Law's Tale, circa 1390:

    "It were with thilke eyen of his mynde, With whiche men seen, after that they been blynde."

    The first actual mention of mind's eye comes in 1577 when Hubert Languet used it in a letter. This was subsequently printed in The Correspondence of Sir Philip Sidney and Hubert Languet, 1845:

    "What will not these golden mountains effect ... which I dare say stand before your mind's eye day and night?"

    Cobbe family portrait of William ShakespeareThe term probably became known through the work of Shakespeare. He uses it in the best-known of all plays - Hamlet, 1602, in a scene where Hamlet is recalling his father:

    HAMLET:
    Thrift, thrift, Horatio! the funeral baked meats
    Did coldly furnish forth the marriage tables.
    Would I had met my dearest foe in heaven
    Or ever I had seen that day, Horatio!
    My father! - methinks I see my father.

    HORATIO:
    Where, my lord?

    HAMLET:
    In my mind's eye, Horatio.

    Conclusion: Shakespeare is definitely better than some of his admirers.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

  • The University of Pennsylvania really needs to clear up this confusion.

    Have one degree course in English literature and another degree course in Lesbian Feminist & Multicultural literature and have each awarded degree clearly marked.

    Then the students can choose which degree they want, and employers know what they are getting. Traditional employers will probably go for English literature and PC LGBT employers for the Lesbian Feminist & Multicultural variant.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Miro23

    Stanford did that for awhile with anthropology: Anthropological Sciences (e.g., Cavalli-Sforza's gene people) vs. Cultural Anthropology. Condi Rice brokered a deal to get them back together.

    Replies: @CJ

    , @NOTA
    @Miro23

    How many people are looking to hire someone with an English degree? More likely, they either want a reasonably bright and functional person (any college degree will do) or they want specific skills or aptitudes (engineering, chemistry, accounting, nursing). The IQ test aspect is probably fulfilled as much by studying mediocre trendy writers as great writers of history.

  • @SPMoore8
    Rather than get bogged down on Shakespeare (and who wrote what), let's turn our attention to our own Shakespeare, I mean, Ta Nehisi Coates, and his latest spectacular retrospective on the Obama presidency, entitled -- wait for it -- "My President Was Black"

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/01/my-president-was-black/508793/

    Replies: @Connecticut Famer, @bomag, @Ivy

    Tennessee Overcoat will be hung up in the closet soon after January 20. The primary reason for his presence was the election of Obama. They both had their 15 minutes of fame.

    Now that that lamentable O period is ending, normal people will be more free to move and think about the country.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @AKAHorace

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn't a high prestige field. It's kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn't hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.

    Replies: @JimB, @keypusher, @Daniel Williams, @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @guest, @guest

    It’s kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.

    Ha ha ha. And then future Ivy Leaguers will claim he appropriated his shtick from Piolín.

  • @Jack D

    The blackest thing ever happened on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania
     
    No, the blackest thing was when some grad student didn't give up his wallet fast enough and his mugger shot and killed him. Ever since then, Penn has security guards posted on every street corner on the campus and 5 blocks out into the surrounding "community" (ghetto). This costs them millions of $ every year but moving out of the city or becoming a school that whites and Asians are afraid to attend would have cost them billions.

    Notice that she doesn't say that this is the best thing, just the blackest. Even she doesn't have the balls to claim that Lorde is a better poet than Shakespeare.

    The problem with playing "the blackest" game is that Monique and these "black" Penn students ain't very black - on any street corner in W. Philly you could find ten brothas who are blacker than they are, inside and out. In fact, they pull these stunts BECAUSE they are insecure about their own blackness - even with affirmative action, in order to make it into the Penn English Dept. you have to use a lot of the "master's tools" and Monique looks like she is a good 50% white (there is enough Monique to make two reasonable size women, one white and one black). So if the criteria for canonization is "who is the blackest" then someone is going to tear down Lorde's picture and put up cop killer Abu Jamal's. Contests like these quickly turn into races to the bottom and those who start the contest rarely make it to the finish line. The revolution always eats its own.

    Replies: @Ivy, @Buffalo Joe

    The revolution won’t be televised, but it might be Snapchatted, Instagrammed or otherwise mediaized.

  • @Spotted Toad
    I enjoyed Stephen Greenblatt's "Will in the World," which puts our limited knowledge of his biography alongside more general social history of the time and uses it to analyze the plays. Even if you don't agree with every argument in the book, you walk away with a better sense of how Shakespeare fit into his time.

    As for the U Penn thing, I always wonder about a point Steve has brought up a few times, which is why there's such a huge market for this stuff. That is, why aren't there more fancy colleges where "Shakespeare was a great writer," isn't really a live source of debate? You'd think that the market would segment out into a SJW-friendly and an SJW unfriendly section, or that some parents would push their kids towards something structured and traditional. But while I'm sure UVA is still different from Oberlin, it's all one continuum, and the humanities in particular looks equally politicized practically everywhere. (Actually, Penn at least used to have a reputation as fratty and jocky and apolitical relative to its peer schools.)

    The obvious answer I guess is that the schools have settled on this kind of thing (the spirit of Audra Lorde hanging over them, benignly or in punishing rage) as the moral justification for the school in the first place. Why does U Penn's endowment get to have bazillions of dollars in the bank? Because they listen sympathetically to black kids when they do stuff like this rather than punish them or even openly disagree, the way the Princeton President and dean just listened and nodded when kids took over their office to yell at them about Woodrow Wilson last year. Heresy is more of a threat to the medieval church than simony, and so forth. But it still seems odd that there's not more market segmentation. I guess if you're a kid with interest and ability in books, there's just never a point at which its better to go to a lower ranked school offering a more traditional curriculum rather than go to an Ivy where they're tearing down Shakespeare, and in practice all the straight white males have already left the English department anyways.

    Replies: @Buck Turgidson, @Desiderius, @Lord Jeff Sessions

    I guess if you’re a kid with interest and ability in books, there’s just never a point at which its better to go to a lower ranked school offering a more traditional curriculum rather than go to an Ivy where they’re tearing down Shakespeare, and in practice all the straight white males have already left the English department anyways.

    I’ve never me someone who chosen to matriculate into a college other than the most prestigious school he has been admitted to. Things like political climate are negligible; what matters far more than anything else is how elite the school is. For instance, in high school I knew a girl who got into Duke (#8 on US News) and Brown (#14 on US News), and she chose Duke. But, when Yale let her via wait-list, she changed to Yale (#3 on US News).

    • Replies: @MC
    @Lord Jeff Sessions

    I don't doubt that what you are saying is true, but I've lived on both sides of the continental divide, and I think the obsession with going to the very highest school that picked you, as opposed to the one that offers the best scholarship, or is closest to home, or has a great football team, is more of an East Coast than a West Coast thing. Or maybe it's an upper class as opposed to middle or UMC thing. Because there are lots of very very smart middle class kids in the Midwest, South, Southwest, or Mountain West, who could get into some lesser Ivy or Near Ivy, but go to the flagship State U. because it's plenty good, is close (but not too close) to home, costs a fraction as much, and is a helluva lot more fun.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

  • The Nobel Prize-winning author, V. S. Naipaul, from Trinidad would have been a better choice than Andre Lorde if the issue was simply finding a non-White writer-of-note to replace Shakespeare.

    Naipaul “mainlined” a classical British education, including matriculating at Oxford. As I recall from reading his works years ago, Naipaul was in love with all things European — especially what was British — as the epitome of high culture and civilization. I guess that disqualified him. It had to be someone who was “colored” and unknown and detested Western Civilization as the world’s single source of “intersectional oppression” imposed on everyone who is non-White.

    I’m pessimistic that the Millennials can get an education that can equal Naipaul’s in the current atmosphere in academia … especially at Ivy League schools.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @TheJester

    My upstairs neighbor in Chicago, an accountant from Trinidad, said Naipaul had been a substitute teacher at his high school. It sounds like it was a pretty good school.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Jack D
    @TheJester

    Naipaul is politically incorrect. A Bend in the River is scathing in its portrayal of Africans, even more so because it is absolutely true to life. He talks about European infrastructure returning to the bush once the Europeans leave. Indians (there was a large Indian merchant community in Africa, especially Uganda, that occupied the same niche that Jews occupied in E. Europe and in American ghettos but was ultimately expelled - they went to England and are doing very well there) are not that crazy about Africans and they are not as afraid as white people to tell the truth since they are semi-immune from charges of racism.

    , @Bill B.
    @TheJester


    The Nobel Prize-winning author, V. S. Naipaul, from Trinidad would have been a better choice than Andre Lorde if the issue was simply finding a non-White writer-of-note to replace Shakespeare...

    I’m pessimistic that the Millennials can get an education that can equal Naipaul’s in the current atmosphere in academia … especially at Ivy League schools.


     

    Correct.

    I heard a Naipaul speech about a decade ago in which he excoriated Oxford University for dumbing down its English degree, turning into a "reading romp" instead of the "hard, hard" course he took in the 50s requiring IIRC deep knowledge of early English, French, the ancients, etc.

    He said such contemporary courses were "useless" because they were so easy and merely required the cadet to adopt the jargon of the adept so as to signal membership of the club "one clown to another".

    He described modern academic language as being as pretentious of 18th Century French court talk when, he said, preening fools called teeth the "furniture of the mouth" and so on.

    Replies: @Tulip, @guest

  • @Lagertha
    @Buzz Mohawk

    No, I would have killed them all off on your behalf, before that! haha! Hmmm....so many of my FB friends are really pissing me off these days; so, once again, I am checking my list, checking it twice; who I will allow to my funeral!!! We have this running joke with my cousins when we are together for 2 sublime weeks in the summer: "Fuck yeah, those people/ that woman/that jerk we all hated/that person who screwed us in business/hurt our family... is never coming to my funeral.

    Replies: @stillCARealist

    Lagertha, babe, don’t post under the influence. This is the voice of experience talking.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @stillCARealist

    appreciate your concern. I am like no one you ever knew in your lifetime, seriously - and, I don't think I am special...I am just a bona fide weirdo that Steve allows to post here . Agree, that I go crazy-train (and, I am always ashamed when I do that), but it is more complicated than you know (as far as your alcohol labelization, and all). If we hung-out you would "get me" (the dark/light stuff). Perhaps, you have not been around people who are as intense as me - who "feel" everything," and the "grey" stuff is hard for us as well.

    I have lost more than 5 people to cancer/diseases lately - last few years, and, cancer is a constant specter; and a new one, for my best friend. I lost my beloved Irish Wolfhound 2 weeks ago, too. So, yeah, I am a highly emotional person. And, I go off on anyone (incl. hypothetical people) who is smug when I am in mourning. I feel like so many people take their lives for granted...they have no empathy/no knowledge of a larger "picture"...there is no strife or hardship in their lives, nor their families.

    I think my main point over Steve's post on Shakespeare is: young people think Shakespeare was just a white dude who wrote plays almost 500 years ago. There's no respect to Western Civilization/Western Art. There is no respect for........... as far as Western Civilization.

  • LOL. Thanks, Steve.

    Speaking of the Left’s mental and emotional implosion, I just heard, via Rush Limbaugh, that someone on a late-night TV show said Trump is susceptible to praise and flattery and that he’s influenced especially by the last person he spoke with. More fake news, more public masturbation, telling themselves fake news, giving themselves hope via self-delusion. Delish.

    • Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    Excuse me:

    PRESIDENT Trump -- my bad.

    Lord God Emperor Trump -- my better.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    Well, Trump does love flattery and applause -- that's why he ran for President -- and most leaders down through history have tended to be influenced by the last person they spoke to.

    Replies: @David

  • @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    LOL. Thanks, Steve.

    Speaking of the Left's mental and emotional implosion, I just heard, via Rush Limbaugh, that someone on a late-night TV show said Trump is susceptible to praise and flattery and that he's influenced especially by the last person he spoke with. More fake news, more public masturbation, telling themselves fake news, giving themselves hope via self-delusion. Delish.

    Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @Steve Sailer

    Excuse me:

    PRESIDENT Trump — my bad.

    Lord God Emperor Trump — my better.

  • @Days of Broken Arrows
    "...an African American writer, feminist, womanist, lesbian, and civil rights activist."

    Wait, she's a "womanist?" That changes everything!

    I was thinking that it wasn't quite enough just her being a feminist, lesbian, and civil right activist. But "womanist?!" I'm now sold. What could top that? Put her on Mt. Rushmore and replace Lennon's pic on the cover of "Meet the Beatles" with her too.

    Replies: @ogunsiron

    Womanists = black feminists who are even uglier than white and ((( white ))) feminists and who kvetch about it

  • @IHTG
    Peak hysteria?
    https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/808476572529360897

    Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @Anonymous

    Yes. And peak fake news.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @AKAHorace

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn't a high prestige field. It's kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn't hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.

    Replies: @JimB, @keypusher, @Daniel Williams, @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @guest, @guest

    It’s also because English intellectuals went looking for a Shakespeare, and found him.

    In the 18th Century, England was battling France for domination of the Western world. They of course battled militarily, but also culturally. England had long ceded to France the crown of most cultured (it was a mark of high class in England to speak and read French), but in the 18th Century England tried to assert its own culture as superior to that of France. In searching its history, its cultural propagandists found Shakespeare and held him up as the example of the world’s greatest playwright.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    Later 18th Century Germans like Goethe went nuts over Shakespeare. The post-Enlightenment sturm und drang boys loved Shakespeare. I don't know whether that had much to do with national rivalries or not. My vague sense is that on the Continent in 1815 a love for Shakespeare and a fondness for Napoleon tended to go together.

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/theatreblog/2010/oct/06/german-william-shakespeare

    Achieving that kind of breakout into a different language is rare but English authors, such as Lord Byron and Sir Walter Scott, started to do it regularly after Shakespeare had made it.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @syonredux

  • Academia is a foreign country to those of us who have never been there. Not even a country. More like a castle in the air. We can only wounder why it takes itself so seriously. The blaxx I know don’t speak the white man’s language among themselves. What are black students even doing in an English department. Are they there to appropriate white culture?

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @WorkingClass

    Working Class, Best comment on this board, that doesn't include the Bard's quotes.

    , @Kylie
    @WorkingClass

    "What are black students even doing in an English department. "

    That's what is known as trying to teach pigs to sing.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    Shakespeare might have been a law clerk.

    A huge fraction of the great writers and composers in European history studied and/or worked in the law. It's probably the second most common intended career of famous guys whose didn't follow their dad into his art. A very common story is Dad ordering Junior to go into the law because it pays well, and Junior complaining that it's boring. It comes up over and over in the lives of famous (non-visual) artists across hundreds of years of European history. (Visual artists, in contrast, typically apprenticed young into painting or sculpting.)

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Amasius, @FPD72, @I, Libertine, @whorefinder, @Kylie

    Law clerk sounds like a great idea. But perhaps it was law student?

    From my (basic) research, it seems England of the time didn’t train lawyers via becoming law clerks, but instead sent kids to law school in London—the famous Inns of Court.

    Some English king (probably Henry II or Edward II) way back in medieval times had made it a requirement that if you wanted to practice non-ecclesiastical law in England, you had to study at the Inns of Court—no apprenticeships.

    And all the Inns of Court were in London, right under the King’s nose.

    Probably this requirement was made so the King could have an army of lawyers trained by people loyal to him and kept under his watchful eyes. The Church’s lawyers threatened his powers and were well trained, but were limited to ecclesiastical courts. Local lords could have had their own lawyers if apprenticeships were allowed, and they could threaten him. By making all non-Church lawyers train under his watch and by his men in his town, the King kept local lords from amassing legal eagles to become hostile to him, and also allowed for a more polished lawyer loyal to him to take on the Church’s canon lawyers.

    Anyway, perhaps Shakespeare and his Dad, worried about his growing family with no income, sent him off to London to the Inns of Court. There, he studied, got bored, watched the plays performed in the law schools (law schools would sponsor plays to entertain the students), went to the theater, and got recruited to the stage.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    I can imagine provincial William telling his father and wife he's off to the big city to establish himself in a lucrative if boring profession of one sort or another, but knowing all along he's immediately going to head for the bohemian quarter and join the demimonde of actors and writers.

  • @jake
    @countenance

    Same difference.

    As Sam Francis, following up on the views of many predecessors, wrote repeatedly: hatred for, even tolerance of hatred for, things Confederate and white Southern would eventually be exposed as war against all things white.

    If you lack the brains and/or balls to defend Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and Jefferson Davis; the Sons of Confederate Veterans, the United Daughters of the Confederacy, and John C. Calhoun - then you lack what it takes to defend Davy Crockett and the men who died at the Alamo, as well as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson and James K. Polk.

    When you cannot defend, and promote, Southern literature, then you help the subsequent war to remove even Shakespeare.

    Replies: @WorkingClass

    When you cannot defend, and promote, Southern literature, then you help the subsequent war to remove even Shakespeare.

    True and well said Mr. Jake.

  • Why do they call it an English Department?

    Why not something more inclusive?

    How about “The Department of Vibrant and Diverse Language Arts “?

    We can build it, but we lack the tricknology of the sons of Yakub.

  • Anonymous [AKA "unsolved mysteries"] says:

    So what’s the difference between a feminist and a “womanist?” Is that a dig at “humanist”? Is it a dig at “feminist”…

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    "Womanist" is a black thing.

  • @eah
    https://twitter.com/RealPeerReview/status/808435402113773568

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    scholars of color

    Nice one, I like how they diligently signal that they aren’t real scholars but “scholars of color”.

  • @FPD72
    @Steve Sailer

    Both Martin Luther and John Calvin studied and prepared for a career in law as well before turning to theological pursuits.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    This coincidence becomes less of a miracle if you consider, that there wasn’t much that they could have studied instead.

  • @countenance
    With the ferocity they tore Shakespeare's portrait down, you would have thought it was a Confederate Battle Flag.

    Replies: @jake, @Neoconned

    The history of language eh?

    They sound almost like that lunatic who shot Rep. iffords in Tucson.

    He kept talking about the meaning of words and their political connotations

  • @Barnard
    Roll over Ben Franklin. This could possibly cause a few more white men donating big money to schools like Penn to realize that their donations are being used against them. Although if they haven't figured that out yet, I don't know what it would take.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Percy Gryce

    That was the message of God and Man at Yale, published more than 60 years ago. We still haven’t learned.

  • @neutral
    There is a solution to this, simply argue for this theory:
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/was-william-shakespeare-a-jewish-woman-in-disguise-1.246717

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Pericles

    Jews and blacks have a profound desire to appropriate white gentile geniuses and creations as their own.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @whorefinder

    Yes, if I had a nickel for every time the boys at Temple Beth-El whined, "You know, just between you and me, William Shakespeare was really Jewish".....

    And I thought that it was only the idiot left that whined about cultural appropriation...

    Anyway, you haven't really seen Hamlet unless you've seen it in the original Yiddish.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @SFG

  • @Jason Liu
    Victim lit has always been for mediocre writers who can't compete

    Lorde, Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, Frantz Fanon, Ta-Nehisi Coates and other oppression narrators all pretty much amount to trash who try really hard to not seem like trash. Seriously, read their stuff. The tryhard is palpable, and almost sad. Reminds me of authors in China who keep pumping out books about what happened to them during the 70's until people just got tired of them.

    Replies: @Daniel H, @anonymous coward

    Lorde, Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, Frantz Fanon, Ta-Nehisi Coates

    Morrison doesn’t really belong on that list, she has talent and writes amusing red-pilled books. I think she is the only writer who managed to insert an antisemitic barb into a novel and get a Nobel Prize for it.

  • @syonredux
    @Desiderius


    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?
     
    Read I Henry IV, Macbeth , King Lear, The Tempest, etc

    If that doesn't do it, nothing will.

    Replies: @Opinionator, @Desiderius, @NOTA

    In other words, you’ve got nothing or can’t be bothered.

    Not good enough.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Desiderius

    I think Shakespeare tends to be over-rated relative to his contemporaries (which include Marlowe, Bacon, and many others) but he's a totem for the the efflorescence of English literature under Elizabeth, which is the earliest form of English that has maintained some level of comprehensibility with our own = before that, they still relied on Latin (as a matter of fact, a lot of Bacon was originally in Latin, IIRC). That period -- which within 20 years would give us John Donne and the King James Bible, and which had already given us the Book of Common Prayer and many other foundational texts in history, philosophy, literature, and poetry (via translations, often) is, like it or not, our "cradle" for English literature. Everything subsequent looks back to it (if not to WS, personally) and therefore you can't really understand the subsequent evolution of English literature without a thorough grounding in Elizabethan=Renaissance literature, that includes Shakespeare (and many others, of course.)
    This is not only the case in terms of verse (prosody), and vocabulary, but also in terms of ideas, since the Elizabethan-Jacobean Renaissance also involved a working over -- again, in comprehensible English -- all the great ideas of Classical Antiquity.

    Substituting politics for literature, it would be sort of like removing a portrait of George Washington and replacing it with one of Barack Obama. It involves a substitution of something ephemeral, recent, and not yet tried by history or tradition, in place of something that represents the basic foundation of our verbal culture. In other words, it was and is profoundly ignorant. But that's college kids for you.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @keypusher

    , @David
    @Desiderius

    When I read The Tempest for the first time and came to Prospero's exhortation to keep alive his goal to please by opening his book and filling his sails with wind, it was as if Shakespeare were talking directly to me, imploring me to keep him alive. I reached out to pat his knee and assure him we would but, surprising to me at the time, my hand whiffed.

    Dr. Johnson was reading Macbeth in his father's book store when at the second appearance of the Weird Sisters he dropped the book and ran into the street to get away.

    I suggest that you Download the BBC collection of RSC performances of Shakespeare's plays. Watch a couple that you've never seen before. For example, Marry Wives. Or watch the Henry VI series. Have a drink.

    Replies: @syonredux

    , @syonredux
    @Desiderius


    In other words, you’ve got nothing or can’t be bothered.

    Not good enough.
     
    Compared to Shakespeare, what is good enough? If reading I Henry IV does not convince you of his greatness, how can I?

    Replies: @Desiderius

  • anon • Disclaimer says:

    Jesus! I cannot BELIEVE the conglomeration of soulless pussies at that school. I know for a fact, if I were a student there, that new SJW picture wouldn’t survive the following night. That picture would be ripped down, and any following copies would be ripped down until the dean employed an armed guard to sit under that stupid picture, 24/7.

    If I lived in that city NOW, I’d figure out a way to get it down myself. What the hell is wrong with the students? Nobody disagrees with this?!

    What’s wrong with the students there? This isn’t even about the school! It’s about extremely shitty parents sucking the life force out of their kids!

    I recall a few years ago, I’d seen millennials commenting on YouTube videos of sixties happenings, and they’d say, “the sixties rocked! I wish I were alive back then!”

    Kids… you’re trying to be the sixties, I was there, and you SUCK at it!

    You’re shitty at being liberals, because you’re shitty people. Being a liberal in the sixties used to have a point. You have no point. You’re awful people. You’re shallow. You’re cowards. You’re followers. You’re mean. You’re anti-intellectuals. You’re liars.

    Everything sixties libs used to hate… you are.

  • @anony-mouse
    So they know more about Lorde than Shakespeare. Don't pictures in your home tend to feature people you know rather than those you don't?

    Replies: @Bill B.

    They are not at home.

    Fool:

    “He’s mad that trusts in the tameness of a wolf, a horse’s health,
    a boy’s love, or a whore’s oath.”

    King Lear (III, vi, 19-21)

    And in SJWs…

  • @Steve Sailer
    @AKAHorace

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn't a high prestige field. It's kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn't hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.

    Replies: @JimB, @keypusher, @Daniel Williams, @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @guest, @guest

    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.

    Shakespeare is a not inconsiderable reason why English spread around the globe, and certainly why such a field as English exists to pay Prof. Esty’s considerable salary.

    Bach likewise took awhile to catch on.

    • Replies: @frayedthread
    @Desiderius


    Shakespeare is a not inconsiderable reason why English spread around the globe,
     
    That is moronic. That's like arguing that Shaikh Zubair's authorship of Al-Kitab is why Arabic spread 'round the globe.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  • @Johnny Smoggins
    @Dave Pinsen

    ...or Harambe if one were feeling particularly puckish.

    Replies: @frayedthread

    Gentle Anthropoid American literary giants fully back this inquest into the changing nature of authorship.

  • @Desiderius
    @Steve Sailer


    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.
     
    Shakespeare is a not inconsiderable reason why English spread around the globe, and certainly why such a field as English exists to pay Prof. Esty's considerable salary.

    Bach likewise took awhile to catch on.

    Replies: @frayedthread

    Shakespeare is a not inconsiderable reason why English spread around the globe,

    That is moronic. That’s like arguing that Shaikh Zubair’s authorship of Al-Kitab is why Arabic spread ’round the globe.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @frayedthread


    That is moronic. That’s like arguing that Shaikh Zubair’s authorship of Al-Kitab is why Arabic spread ’round the globe.
     
    Alright, alright, maybe I went a little overboard, though I'm a piker compared to Harold Bloom:

    https://www.amazon.com/Shakespeare-Invention-Human-Harold-Bloom/dp/157322751X
  • @Lagertha
    @Kylie

    hahhahhh, so funny, Kylie. So agree that this was an article that we all need to take a stab at. With Trump in office, stuff will still be thick with fight and intrigue. It will be a ferocious fight for 4 years.

    Replies: @Kylie

    “With Trump in office, stuff will still be thick with fight and intrigue. It will be a ferocious fight for 4 years.”

    Definitely. What’s so hilarious is the leftists (especially the distaff did) aren’t digging in their heels as a matter of principle but simply because for the first time in ages, they’ve been thwarted.

    For your viewing pleasure:

  • My academic line on all things Shakespeare descends from Penn’s Matthew Black and Albert Croll Baugh, so last night I had plenty of things to say on this topic. Mostly around why people should bother with Shakespeare.

    Instead of writing I hunkered down with Henry V and a glass of water.

    Today I’ll fasten the onion to my belt and recall the time, in a graduate class about propaganda–excuse me, persuasion in information campaigns–we were shown the 1915 Birth of a Nation.

    It was as an illustration of I don’t recall what, maybe camera angles and editing in silent movies/documentaries. The next day was Leni R., which the prof called Birth of a Reich.

    The scene from BOAN that most infuriated my classmates was the one that showed a statehouse full of Africans engaging in, by today’s standards, tame and childish behavior.

    That scene occurred to me as my brain scripted the moment where the portrait was replaced.

    It now appears that Penn is tied with Yale on proving Griffith right to a degree that would have been unthinkable in the 1980s.

    And the calculated, intentional, well-funded degradation and destruction of the Ivy League universities is approaching singularity…as many of the Sailertariat themselves prove Useful Idiots in that agenda, rather than fighting back.

    Okey dokey.

    “Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more….”

  • Kingsley Amis in the posthumously published “The King’s English” stated the obvious:

    Shakespeare

    It is fair, though hardly very important, that to say or imply that the man of this name is not our greatest writer marks a second-rate person at best.

  • @Danindc
    Shakespeare would have been an AMAZING rapper if he was born in this era. Shame he wasn't....

    Replies: @TelfoedJohn, @anon

  • Esty has that “please don’t hate me and PLEASE don’t think I’m a racist even though if you call me one I’ll nod my head guiltily and beg forgiveness” expression of a true GoodWhite jellyfish. (…Goofish?)

  • @whorefinder
    I love this. The Left is actively making themselves stupid. By conscious choice. It's like watching Luddities marauding their own countryside, burning and destroying and breaking all their advanced machinery.

    I mean removing the greatest writer in the English language for a tokenism is the height of hysteria and nonsense.

    The longer they keep up this charade that Ugly is Beautiful, Men Are Women, Gays are The Same As Straight, Blacks Are the Same As Whites, Whitey is Awful, etc., the dumber, poorer, and more miserable they will get.

    Delicious to watch. Trump is actually triggering them to hurt themselves.

    Is there anything Trump can't do?

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Dieter Kief, @Stephen R. Diamond, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    The Left is actively making themselves stupid.

    Well, they’ve got to catch up with Trump.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @Stephen R. Diamond

    The self-made billionaire who just came from nowhere to pull off the greatest political upset since "Dewey Defeats Truman"?

    You're calling that guy stupid?

    Please, continue to make these errors, I'm loving it, and it only contributes to his victories.

  • @Desiderius
    @syonredux

    In other words, you've got nothing or can't be bothered.

    Not good enough.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @David, @syonredux

    I think Shakespeare tends to be over-rated relative to his contemporaries (which include Marlowe, Bacon, and many others) but he’s a totem for the the efflorescence of English literature under Elizabeth, which is the earliest form of English that has maintained some level of comprehensibility with our own = before that, they still relied on Latin (as a matter of fact, a lot of Bacon was originally in Latin, IIRC). That period — which within 20 years would give us John Donne and the King James Bible, and which had already given us the Book of Common Prayer and many other foundational texts in history, philosophy, literature, and poetry (via translations, often) is, like it or not, our “cradle” for English literature. Everything subsequent looks back to it (if not to WS, personally) and therefore you can’t really understand the subsequent evolution of English literature without a thorough grounding in Elizabethan=Renaissance literature, that includes Shakespeare (and many others, of course.)
    This is not only the case in terms of verse (prosody), and vocabulary, but also in terms of ideas, since the Elizabethan-Jacobean Renaissance also involved a working over — again, in comprehensible English — all the great ideas of Classical Antiquity.

    Substituting politics for literature, it would be sort of like removing a portrait of George Washington and replacing it with one of Barack Obama. It involves a substitution of something ephemeral, recent, and not yet tried by history or tradition, in place of something that represents the basic foundation of our verbal culture. In other words, it was and is profoundly ignorant. But that’s college kids for you.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @SPMoore8


    I think Shakespeare tends to be over-rated relative to his contemporaries (which include Marlowe, Bacon, and many others) but he’s a totem for the the efflorescence of English literature under Elizabeth, which is the earliest form of English that has maintained some level of comprehensibility with our own = before that, they still relied on Latin (as a matter of fact, a lot of Bacon was originally in Latin, IIRC).
     
    Intellectual virtue signaling is the price essential douchebags pay to virtue.
    , @keypusher
    @SPMoore8

    I think Shakespeare tends to be over-rated relative to his contemporaries (which include Marlowe, Bacon, and many others)

    There were a lot of very good playwrights then, and some of them wrote better plays than some of Shakespeare's, which nevertheless get produced because -- Shakespeare. On the other hand, if it wasn't for WS, maybe Jonson and Webster and B&F would never get produced at all. There are some Restoration and 18th century comedies that I loved reading but I never expect to see.

    Marlowe was great, and he would have been much greater if he hadn't gotten murdered when he was 29. The Jew of Malta is a rattling good read, and I think it would be terrific on stage (the title is a bit of a barrier -- Shakespeare was lucky that he named his comparable play for a different character, perhaps because he didn't want it to sound too much like Marlowe's play). That said, I think The Merchant of Venice is a much profounder work, and Shylock is a much more complex and interesting character than the comic-book supervillain Barabbas. But again, Shakespeare was in his early-mid 30s when he wrote it, and we'll never know what Marlowe would have been doing at that age.

    I don't know what it means to say that Shakespeare is overrated compared to Bacon. Great imaginative literature tends to last longer than scientific or political work. We still read the Greek poets, but hardly anyone reads Galen or Euclid.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @guest

  • @Anonymous
    We've reached peak leftism.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Daniel H, @David In TN

    “We’ve reached peak leftism.”

    There is no bottom with these people, or no “peak,” if you prefer.

    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @syonredux
    @David In TN


    “We’ve reached peak leftism.”

    There is no bottom with these people, or no “peak,” if you prefer.
     
    An endless "lowerarchy"
    , @David
    @David In TN

    "When you think you've lost everything, you find out you can always lose a little more."

    B. Dylan

  • Anonymous [AKA "B Shakes"] says:
    @Desiderius
    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?

    My sense is that part of the reason such hallmarks of our culture are now vulnerable (in addition, of course, to the malignant forces actually doing the attacking) is that we've fallen out of practice at advocating for them (that culture merits more than mere defense).

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @syonredux, @bored identity, @Anonymous, @SFG

    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?

    My sense is that part of the reason such hallmarks of our culture are now vulnerable (in addition, of course, to the malignant forces actually doing the attacking) is that we’ve fallen out of practice at advocating for them (that culture merits more than mere defense).

    I will weep for thee,
    for this revolt of thine methinks
    is like another fall of man…

  • @Tiny Duck
    there is a whole lot of speculation as to whether or not Shakespeare wrote any of the works attributed to him anyway. Nevertheless, good move.

    Shakespeare is lauded everywhere so I don't get the big deal. People of Color have been overlooked for far too long

    white mediocrity is deemed worth more than the real blood, sweat, and tears of People of Color

    Most People of Color agree with this action. That tells you something right there

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @PSR, @Mr. Anon, @Authenticjazzman, @Cloudbuster, @Johanus de Morgateroyde, @Daniel Chieh, @Lagertha

    Sometimes I just come here to watch Tiny Duck step on his Tiny D*ck. With cleats. 🙂

    That parody of leftists is indistinguishable from actual leftists these days is quite amusing.

  • @Anonymous
    So what's the difference between a feminist and a "womanist?" Is that a dig at "humanist"? Is it a dig at "feminist"...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    “Womanist” is a black thing.

  • Anonymous [AKA "B. Shakes"] says:
    @SPMoore8
    @Desiderius

    I think Shakespeare tends to be over-rated relative to his contemporaries (which include Marlowe, Bacon, and many others) but he's a totem for the the efflorescence of English literature under Elizabeth, which is the earliest form of English that has maintained some level of comprehensibility with our own = before that, they still relied on Latin (as a matter of fact, a lot of Bacon was originally in Latin, IIRC). That period -- which within 20 years would give us John Donne and the King James Bible, and which had already given us the Book of Common Prayer and many other foundational texts in history, philosophy, literature, and poetry (via translations, often) is, like it or not, our "cradle" for English literature. Everything subsequent looks back to it (if not to WS, personally) and therefore you can't really understand the subsequent evolution of English literature without a thorough grounding in Elizabethan=Renaissance literature, that includes Shakespeare (and many others, of course.)
    This is not only the case in terms of verse (prosody), and vocabulary, but also in terms of ideas, since the Elizabethan-Jacobean Renaissance also involved a working over -- again, in comprehensible English -- all the great ideas of Classical Antiquity.

    Substituting politics for literature, it would be sort of like removing a portrait of George Washington and replacing it with one of Barack Obama. It involves a substitution of something ephemeral, recent, and not yet tried by history or tradition, in place of something that represents the basic foundation of our verbal culture. In other words, it was and is profoundly ignorant. But that's college kids for you.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @keypusher

    I think Shakespeare tends to be over-rated relative to his contemporaries (which include Marlowe, Bacon, and many others) but he’s a totem for the the efflorescence of English literature under Elizabeth, which is the earliest form of English that has maintained some level of comprehensibility with our own = before that, they still relied on Latin (as a matter of fact, a lot of Bacon was originally in Latin, IIRC).

    Intellectual virtue signaling is the price essential douchebags pay to virtue.

    • Troll: Spmoore8
  • @TGGP
    @Jefferson

    A dialect like ebonics (or the regional varieties of English you listed) is not simply a different way of saying the same words, an accent. There are also different words & phrases not found in other dialects. Although Lorde doesn't appear to actually be writing in ebonics, just writing English in a way intended to repel most readers, as is common in modern poetry.

    The idea that Shakespeare is so iconic he doesn't need portraits is at least novel. Just exactly why Lorde deserves to be made more familiar to students is another story.

    I've always found that expression about the master's tools & house odd. You'd expect the tools used on the house would be exactly the sort useful for tearing it down. You're not going to tear down Trump Tower with a stone axe. And carrying the analogy into the political, revolutionaries tend to come from the same elite class they are supposed to be overthrowing.

    Replies: @Hockamaw

    In fact, Ebonics (the true language of the street Africans, not the “Ebonics” of the black Marxist self-parodies in university English departments) is a form of creole dialect. It is indeed a sort of pidgin tongue.

  • @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    It's also because English intellectuals went looking for a Shakespeare, and found him.

    In the 18th Century, England was battling France for domination of the Western world. They of course battled militarily, but also culturally. England had long ceded to France the crown of most cultured (it was a mark of high class in England to speak and read French), but in the 18th Century England tried to assert its own culture as superior to that of France. In searching its history, its cultural propagandists found Shakespeare and held him up as the example of the world's greatest playwright.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Later 18th Century Germans like Goethe went nuts over Shakespeare. The post-Enlightenment sturm und drang boys loved Shakespeare. I don’t know whether that had much to do with national rivalries or not. My vague sense is that on the Continent in 1815 a love for Shakespeare and a fondness for Napoleon tended to go together.

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/theatreblog/2010/oct/06/german-william-shakespeare

    Achieving that kind of breakout into a different language is rare but English authors, such as Lord Byron and Sir Walter Scott, started to do it regularly after Shakespeare had made it.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    I think it was partially a revolt against French cultural domination. France had such cultural sway in Europe that everyone was bowing to them, but the emergence of 19th Century nationalism, the horrors of the French revolution, and the anger/fear of Napoleon made everyone start rejecting French culture.

    The Russian aristocracy, as Tolstoy demonstrated in War and Peace, spoke French as their language. The German nation was just emerging as a cohesive whole after being a confederation for centuries, and having had to deal with French (and Italian) hegemony in the arts. Even the Ottomon Empire, declining as it was, had close cultural ties with the French. Spain, Portugal, and the Dutch had dropped off the map culturally, so England became a good place to reach to for a breath of cultural fresh air.

    And the British success in the 18th and 19th Centuries at conquering the world---but of course, avoiding conquering Europe---made them admirable to many Europeans wanting to emulate them. And the Brits made it a mission to popularize their culture.

    And then Napoleon came storming through Europe and was the terror of the land. After that, the popularity of French culture declined in hatred of his conquering.

    This is similar to how up until WW2, German culture was held in high regard by most of the west. The German film industry was a true rival to Hollywood. German industriousness, inventions, and ability were prized as the greatest flowering of the time. Freud and Nietsche were the intellectual vanguard. No less than Mark Twain was trying to learn German, and American academics developed their academic theories in response to German ones (Oliver Wendell Holmes, for example, wrote law review articles in response to German academic theories about the law). German academies were considered the place to go for intellectuals---this is why Hollywood movies stereotyped scientists with German accents.

    The WW2 happened, and Hitler's threat pretty much soured everyone on German culture.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Anonymous

    , @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer


    Achieving that kind of breakout into a different language is rare but English authors, such as Lord Byron and Sir Walter Scott, started to do it regularly after Shakespeare had made it.
     
    Murray's Human Accomplishment is useful for measuring that kind of thing. In order to avoid linguistic bias, he does not rate authors according to criticism and scholarship written in the same language as the author who is being evaluated (e.g., German authors are evaluated according to what non-German critics thing, Anglos according to what non-Anglos think, etc).

    So, turning to Faulkner, Hemingway, and Fitzgerald, we would expect to see Faulkner and Hemingway get higher ratings than Fitzgerald, as they have had a bigger impact outside the Anglosphere. And that's what Murray's numbers show:

    Faulkner:15.35

    Hemingway: 15.05

    Fitzgerald:2.84 Fitzgerald
  • @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    LOL. Thanks, Steve.

    Speaking of the Left's mental and emotional implosion, I just heard, via Rush Limbaugh, that someone on a late-night TV show said Trump is susceptible to praise and flattery and that he's influenced especially by the last person he spoke with. More fake news, more public masturbation, telling themselves fake news, giving themselves hope via self-delusion. Delish.

    Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @Steve Sailer

    Well, Trump does love flattery and applause — that’s why he ran for President — and most leaders down through history have tended to be influenced by the last person they spoke to.

    • Replies: @David
    @Steve Sailer

    "But when I tell him he hates flatterers, he says he does, being then most flattered."

    Casio on Caesar

  • @TheJester
    The Nobel Prize-winning author, V. S. Naipaul, from Trinidad would have been a better choice than Andre Lorde if the issue was simply finding a non-White writer-of-note to replace Shakespeare.

    Naipaul "mainlined" a classical British education, including matriculating at Oxford. As I recall from reading his works years ago, Naipaul was in love with all things European -- especially what was British -- as the epitome of high culture and civilization. I guess that disqualified him. It had to be someone who was "colored" and unknown and detested Western Civilization as the world's single source of "intersectional oppression" imposed on everyone who is non-White.

    I'm pessimistic that the Millennials can get an education that can equal Naipaul's in the current atmosphere in academia ... especially at Ivy League schools.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Jack D, @Bill B.

    My upstairs neighbor in Chicago, an accountant from Trinidad, said Naipaul had been a substitute teacher at his high school. It sounds like it was a pretty good school.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Steve Sailer

    After he finished college, Naipaul was only back in Trinidad for 2 months. I suppose he could have substitute taught during this brief window but otherwise it doesn't really fit his timeline.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    Shakespeare might have been a law clerk.

    A huge fraction of the great writers and composers in European history studied and/or worked in the law. It's probably the second most common intended career of famous guys whose didn't follow their dad into his art. A very common story is Dad ordering Junior to go into the law because it pays well, and Junior complaining that it's boring. It comes up over and over in the lives of famous (non-visual) artists across hundreds of years of European history. (Visual artists, in contrast, typically apprenticed young into painting or sculpting.)

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Amasius, @FPD72, @I, Libertine, @whorefinder, @Kylie

    Robert Schumann was sent by his widowed mother and his guardian to study law to fulfill the terms of his inheritance.

    He was intent on a career in music, though, and finally wrote his mother that, “My whole life has been a struggle between Poetry and Prose, or call it Music and Law.” Schumann, as eloquent a writer as he was taciturn in conversation, managed to prevail and began studying piano under the master teacher, Friedrich Wieck. Luckily an injured finger ended his dream if becoming a virtuoso pianist and he turned to composing music instead.

  • @Stephen R. Diamond
    @whorefinder


    The Left is actively making themselves stupid.
     
    Well, they've got to catch up with Trump.

    Replies: @whorefinder

    The self-made billionaire who just came from nowhere to pull off the greatest political upset since “Dewey Defeats Truman”?

    You’re calling that guy stupid?

    Please, continue to make these errors, I’m loving it, and it only contributes to his victories.

  • Anonymous [AKA "Saloman"] says:
    @IHTG
    Peak hysteria?
    https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/808476572529360897

    Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @Anonymous

    Keith Olberman has fallen from a cable network job to… “GQ Pundit”?

    In a world of “golden parachutes,” all Keith got was a whoopee cushion.

    Biggest question for me is, what job does Keith have to be offered before he figures out that broadcasting just isn’t his bag? It must be a devastating existential blow to love something, devote your life to it, and wind up discovering very late that you’re bad at it. I guess that happens to a lot of entertainers. It almost broke David Hasselhoff.

    I guess in that scenario then, if you lack grit, railing at the dying of the light is the only option except resigning to insanity. The bitter irony is that committing to the first option ensures the other option.

    The tragedy of Keith Olberman could be averted, if he just resigned, and took a painting class.

  • @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    Law clerk sounds like a great idea. But perhaps it was law student?

    From my (basic) research, it seems England of the time didn't train lawyers via becoming law clerks, but instead sent kids to law school in London---the famous Inns of Court.

    Some English king (probably Henry II or Edward II) way back in medieval times had made it a requirement that if you wanted to practice non-ecclesiastical law in England, you had to study at the Inns of Court---no apprenticeships.

    And all the Inns of Court were in London, right under the King's nose.

    Probably this requirement was made so the King could have an army of lawyers trained by people loyal to him and kept under his watchful eyes. The Church's lawyers threatened his powers and were well trained, but were limited to ecclesiastical courts. Local lords could have had their own lawyers if apprenticeships were allowed, and they could threaten him. By making all non-Church lawyers train under his watch and by his men in his town, the King kept local lords from amassing legal eagles to become hostile to him, and also allowed for a more polished lawyer loyal to him to take on the Church's canon lawyers.

    Anyway, perhaps Shakespeare and his Dad, worried about his growing family with no income, sent him off to London to the Inns of Court. There, he studied, got bored, watched the plays performed in the law schools (law schools would sponsor plays to entertain the students), went to the theater, and got recruited to the stage.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I can imagine provincial William telling his father and wife he’s off to the big city to establish himself in a lucrative if boring profession of one sort or another, but knowing all along he’s immediately going to head for the bohemian quarter and join the demimonde of actors and writers.

  • @Miro23
    The University of Pennsylvania really needs to clear up this confusion.

    Have one degree course in English literature and another degree course in Lesbian Feminist & Multicultural literature and have each awarded degree clearly marked.

    Then the students can choose which degree they want, and employers know what they are getting. Traditional employers will probably go for English literature and PC LGBT employers for the Lesbian Feminist & Multicultural variant.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @NOTA

    Stanford did that for awhile with anthropology: Anthropological Sciences (e.g., Cavalli-Sforza’s gene people) vs. Cultural Anthropology. Condi Rice brokered a deal to get them back together.

    • Replies: @CJ
    @Steve Sailer

    Duke University has two departments of anthropology. Evolutionary Anthropology is an actual science-oriented program administered under the purview of the medical school. Cultural Anthropology ("Cul Anth") is, to borrow from Vox Day, a fully-converged social justice warrior operation.

    Replies: @black sea, @guest

  • @Lord Jeff Sessions
    @Spotted Toad


    I guess if you’re a kid with interest and ability in books, there’s just never a point at which its better to go to a lower ranked school offering a more traditional curriculum rather than go to an Ivy where they’re tearing down Shakespeare, and in practice all the straight white males have already left the English department anyways.
     
    I've never me someone who chosen to matriculate into a college other than the most prestigious school he has been admitted to. Things like political climate are negligible; what matters far more than anything else is how elite the school is. For instance, in high school I knew a girl who got into Duke (#8 on US News) and Brown (#14 on US News), and she chose Duke. But, when Yale let her via wait-list, she changed to Yale (#3 on US News).

    Replies: @MC

    I don’t doubt that what you are saying is true, but I’ve lived on both sides of the continental divide, and I think the obsession with going to the very highest school that picked you, as opposed to the one that offers the best scholarship, or is closest to home, or has a great football team, is more of an East Coast than a West Coast thing. Or maybe it’s an upper class as opposed to middle or UMC thing. Because there are lots of very very smart middle class kids in the Midwest, South, Southwest, or Mountain West, who could get into some lesser Ivy or Near Ivy, but go to the flagship State U. because it’s plenty good, is close (but not too close) to home, costs a fraction as much, and is a helluva lot more fun.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    @MC

    Agreed.
    Berkeley was always as socially acceptable as Stanford; only the insecure thought otherwise. Nothing like that exists in New England, although the South and the Middle West have notable examples. I chose Berkeley because having grown up in Palo Alto I knew Stanford like the back of my hand, and the last thing I wanted was to go home every day after class. I actually went as a freshman to the most expensive four year college in America (at the time) which was indeed on the East Coast. I returned to California, and specifically to Berkeley, because I wanted a better library. There I educated myself far more thoroughly (and enjoyably) than in any but the rarest of my actual courses, all of which, as it happened, were taught either by Easterners or Europeans.

    Replies: @Prof. Woland

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    Later 18th Century Germans like Goethe went nuts over Shakespeare. The post-Enlightenment sturm und drang boys loved Shakespeare. I don't know whether that had much to do with national rivalries or not. My vague sense is that on the Continent in 1815 a love for Shakespeare and a fondness for Napoleon tended to go together.

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/theatreblog/2010/oct/06/german-william-shakespeare

    Achieving that kind of breakout into a different language is rare but English authors, such as Lord Byron and Sir Walter Scott, started to do it regularly after Shakespeare had made it.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @syonredux

    I think it was partially a revolt against French cultural domination. France had such cultural sway in Europe that everyone was bowing to them, but the emergence of 19th Century nationalism, the horrors of the French revolution, and the anger/fear of Napoleon made everyone start rejecting French culture.

    The Russian aristocracy, as Tolstoy demonstrated in War and Peace, spoke French as their language. The German nation was just emerging as a cohesive whole after being a confederation for centuries, and having had to deal with French (and Italian) hegemony in the arts. Even the Ottomon Empire, declining as it was, had close cultural ties with the French. Spain, Portugal, and the Dutch had dropped off the map culturally, so England became a good place to reach to for a breath of cultural fresh air.

    And the British success in the 18th and 19th Centuries at conquering the world—but of course, avoiding conquering Europe—made them admirable to many Europeans wanting to emulate them. And the Brits made it a mission to popularize their culture.

    And then Napoleon came storming through Europe and was the terror of the land. After that, the popularity of French culture declined in hatred of his conquering.

    This is similar to how up until WW2, German culture was held in high regard by most of the west. The German film industry was a true rival to Hollywood. German industriousness, inventions, and ability were prized as the greatest flowering of the time. Freud and Nietsche were the intellectual vanguard. No less than Mark Twain was trying to learn German, and American academics developed their academic theories in response to German ones (Oliver Wendell Holmes, for example, wrote law review articles in response to German academic theories about the law). German academies were considered the place to go for intellectuals—this is why Hollywood movies stereotyped scientists with German accents.

    The WW2 happened, and Hitler’s threat pretty much soured everyone on German culture.

    • Agree: Miro23
    • Replies: @Anon 2
    @whorefinder

    Polish nobility continued to be fluent in French
    until at least World War I, and probably beyond.
    Joseph Conrad (Korzeniowski) is a good example.
    He spoke French with no accent, and even though
    his novels are now part of the English canon and his
    wife was British, to the end of his days he spoke
    English with a thick foreign accent, as attested, for
    example, by Bertrand Russell. Russell and Conrad
    became close friends, perhaps because they both shared
    a tragic view of life. On the other hand, William James
    and Conrad spoke French when they got together to talk
    about literature. Conrad could only talk about the finer
    points of literature in French.

    France and Poland, being both Catholic, have had a great
    deal of affinity for each other. During the French Revolution
    thousands of French nobles ran to Poland (and not to Germany)
    to escape the Reign of Terror. Until WW I England was still
    to some extent regarded as a "nation of shopkeepers." I mean
    how could Victorian England compare with the flowering of La
    Belle Époque in France. England had few if any great composers,
    great painters or great sculptors (or great food!). Great science,
    personified by Darwin or Maxwell, just doesn't have the same cachet.
    English didn't really become important until the 1920s and even more
    so 1950s with the rise of the United States and the self-destruction of the
    European powers. I grew up in Europe so this is based on my own direct
    experience

    Replies: @syonredux, @dfordoom

    , @Anonymous
    @whorefinder


    The German film industry was a true rival to Hollywood.
     
    In popular films? I don't mean to contradict, just asking.

    The only popular German film I'm familiar with is their Titanic movie. The actors seemed a little stiff. I don't recall any light-hearted German comedies or musicals even before WWII. If you have any links, please let me know. Just surprised to read the German's were giving us a run for our money in movies.

    Check out Nazi Titanic below.

    Before you do, check out this short vid on the film's history. It's kind of foul:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7_GAM549EQ

    History channel's version is longer:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrnRTL4bYsY&feature=youtu.be&list=PL8F082E27C88C555C

    And here's the movie, in German, with english captions. As I said, the actors are a little stiff:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFamcBHdwA

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @dfordoom

  • @Steve Sailer
    @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    Well, Trump does love flattery and applause -- that's why he ran for President -- and most leaders down through history have tended to be influenced by the last person they spoke to.

    Replies: @David

    “But when I tell him he hates flatterers, he says he does, being then most flattered.”

    Casio on Caesar

  • Anonymous [AKA "Tentative Magician"] says:
    @Opinionator
    @Tiny Duck

    I would be interested in reading up on the evidence of collusion. Can you provide a cite?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    No, no, you are doing Ducklet an injustice. He said Trump collided with Russia. It was at night and snowing hard. Trump apologized, then asked, “Excuse me, is this the way to the White House?”

    • Replies: @neon2
    @Anonymous

    A superb little flight of fancy! Do keep them coming.

  • @res
    @AKAHorace

    What other writers have contributions on the order of:
    http://shakespeare-online.com/biography/wordsinvented.html
    http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/phrases-sayings-shakespeare.html

    As Mr. Anon noted in his wonderful summary, the King James Bible is a worthy contender:
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2011/feb/18/phrases-king-james-bible
    but coined fewer new words (if you only follow one link here make it this one):
    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-12205084
    a good summary from that article:


    He also found that the Bible coined few new words. Shakespeare by comparison, introduced about 100 phrases into our idiom, to the Bible's 257, but something like 1,000 new words. The English Bible introduced only 40 or so, including "battering ram" and "backsliding".

    "This reflects their different jobs," says Crystal. "The whole point of being a dramatist is to be original in your language. The Bible translators, in contrast, were under strict instructions not to be innovative but to look backwards to what earlier translators had done." Earlier translators whose only concern was to translate the Bible literally.
     
    Also worth noting:

    "Only 18 (res: of the 257 phrases) of that total were unique to the King James Bible. It didn't originate these usages, it acted as a kind of conduit through which they became popular. Tyndale was the number one influence."
     
    P.S. You make a good point about English changing quickly at the time, but it's hard to be sure about the direction of causality and I think a good case can be made for Shakespeare and the King James Bible solidifying the English language.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dieter Kief

    There’s another important era in English literature following the copyright act of 1709 when English prose finally gets its act together with the establishment of magazines and publication of popular novels like Robinson Crusoe. The French had already developed a classic prose style a couple of generations before, but the English didn’t until writers had the property rights protection to make reliable money off prose.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer


    There’s another important era in English literature following the copyright act of 1709 when English prose finally gets its act together with the establishment of magazines and publication of popular novels like Robinson Crusoe. The French had already developed a classic prose style a couple of generations before, but the English didn’t until writers had the property rights protection to make reliable money off prose.
     
    Might also note the influence of the Royal Society, as they promoted a clean, lucid style of prose:

    They [fellows of the Royal Society] have therefore been most rigorous in putting in execution the only remedy that can be found for this extravagance; and that has been a constant resolution to reject all the amplifications, digressions, and swellings of style; to return back to the primitive purity and shortness, when men delivered so many things almost in an equal number of words. They have exacted from all their members a close, naked, natural way of speaking; positive expressions, clear senses, a native easiness; bringing all things as near the mathematical plainness as they can; and preferring the language of artisans, countrymen, and merchants, before that of wits or scholars.
     
    Thomas Sprat, History of the Royal Society
  • Read this story:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/us/politics/russia-hack-election-dnc.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

    in order to understand the level of incompetence of future America (present day America in Democrat hands).

    These folks are whining like crazy about Russian hacking now but they did nothing to stop the hackers, even after the FBI warned them. They fell for dumb spear fishing attacks (emails telling them to “click here to change your Google password”) that should only work on clueless senior citizens like Hillary.

    Do a google image search on “Yared Tamene” – this is who the DNC put up against Russian hackers.

    On good days, I worry that Orwell was prophetic with his 1984, but on bad days I worry that Idiocracy is really our future. When I read the story I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

  • Oh yeah:

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @IHTG

    Thanks, I'll post.

  • @The Anti-Gnostic
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    In all seriousness, this really is what separate countries are for. Blacks resent and are uncomfortable with white history, white culture and white heroes, much as I would feel if forced to hear rap everywhere I went, read slam poetry, and pretend I admired Mumia Abu-Jamal.

    Blacks chafe constantly under white-run society. They regard it as uptight and pretentious at best, and unjust and oppressive at worst. There are probably not two more immiscible races on Earth than African-descended and Anglo-European-descended. Unfortunately we're all trapped in a bubble of liberal delusion at this point, and the more it becomes obvious that the two cultures need to go their separate ways, the more frantic the efforts to make this misbegotten marriage work. And as if that weren't enough, we insist on importing millions more browner, cheaper, resentful people on which to lavish our affections.

    In the demotic State, this conciliatory process only goes in one direction. White high culture is disappearing, withdrawing into high-IQ redoubts. We are now in the Christmas season, and getting our perennial dose of every song and sacred hymn rendered into R & B or Gospel.

    Replies: @ice hole, @Corvinus

    “In all seriousness, this really is what separate countries are for.”

    America since it’s inception has never been a “one racial horse” town. It is separated by race, religion, and political ideology, but bound by an unnerving resolve by its citizens to remain as one.

    “Blacks resent and are uncomfortable with white history, white culture and white heroes, much as I would feel if forced to hear rap everywhere I went, read slam poetry, and pretend I admired Mumia Abu-Jamal.”

    Some blacks feel this way, as demonstrated by this cultural appropriation by a group that represents the Coalition of the Left Fringe group.

    “There are probably not two more immiscible races on Earth than African-descended and Anglo-European-descended.”

    I applaud your tendency to wildly exaggerate matters. Remember, however, you invaded and invited the darkies to the party in the first place for their labor.

    “Unfortunately we’re all trapped in a bubble of liberal delusion at this point, and the more it becomes obvious that the two cultures need to go their separate ways, the more frantic the efforts to make this misbegotten marriage work.”

    It’s delusion all right, one of epic proportions on your part to keep insisting that blacks and whites remain separate.

    “White high culture is disappearing, withdrawing into high-IQ redoubts.”

    White high culture is actually flourishing. Go read Vox Day’s blog for a preview.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Corvinus


    Remember, however, you invaded and invited the darkies to the party in the first place for their labor.
     
    Speak for yourself, you descendant of money-grubbing slave traders.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  • @Steve Sailer
    @TheJester

    My upstairs neighbor in Chicago, an accountant from Trinidad, said Naipaul had been a substitute teacher at his high school. It sounds like it was a pretty good school.

    Replies: @Jack D

    After he finished college, Naipaul was only back in Trinidad for 2 months. I suppose he could have substitute taught during this brief window but otherwise it doesn’t really fit his timeline.

  • @I, Libertine
    @Steve Sailer

    For most of the "might haves" or "must haves" we have for William Shakspere (or Shagsper, or other variations of the spelling on his six extant signatures, none of them "Shakespeare") of Stratford, we have "definitely did" for Edward DeVere. Intimate knowledge of the language of law is one of them, requiring Stratfordians to include "service as a law clerk" as one of the many things he "must have" or at least "might have" done during the lost years.

    If you really want to get a feel for how deeply the language of the law is ingrained into the speech of Shakespeare's characters, check out the work Sir George Greenwood.

    As a salient example, I quote Mistress Page from The Merry Wives of Windsor:

    The spirit of wantonness is, sure, scared out of
    him: if the devil have him not in fee-simple, with
    fine and recovery, he will never, I think, in the
    way of waste, attempt us again.

    Here is Shakespeare placing in the mouth of a housewife (indeed, a commoner) "fine and recovery," a term for obscure legal proceeding, which she tosses out during a casual conversation.

    Shakespeare studied law, alright.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @keypusher, @whorefinder, @dfordoom

    Shakespeare learned a lot of stuff. For example, Hamlet has some astronomy in it. Shakespeare seems to have been interested in the Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe and the debates over geocentrism vs. heliocentrism. When Tom Stoppard directed the movie version of Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead with Oldman and Roth, he was into his science phase of self-education, so made the castle of Elsinore look like an observatory like Tycho’s.

    Stoppard’s plays have lots and lots of learned references suggesting formal study or apprenticeship in different fields, but, like Shakespeare, he never went to college.

    It would be interesting to see how far you could get developing a theory that Stoppard was just a front man for the real author of Stoppard’s plays, who was actually Edward St. Aubyn or William D. Hamilton or Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones who, as we all know, faked his death in 1969 to get out of the limelight so he could concentrate on his playwrighting (notice the hair style similarities), or Dirk Bogarde or Prince Charles.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer


    It would be interesting to see how far you could get developing a theory that Stoppard was just a front man for the real author of Stoppard’s plays, who was actually Edward St. Aubyn or William D. Hamilton or Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones who, as we all know, faked his death in 1969 to get out of the limelight so he could concentrate on his playwrighting (notice the hair style similarities), or Dirk Bogarde or Prince Charles.
     
    L Sprague DeCamp has a parody of the anti-Shakespeare theorists in one of his stories (can't remember which, but it was part of the Viagens Interplanetarias series). A character attends a lecture where some guy is arguing that Winston Churchill was secretly the author of the works of George Bernard Shaw.

    Replies: @guest

    , @I, Libertine
    @Steve Sailer

    Do I correctly sense a trace of sarcasm?

  • This time of day, throughout the West behold
    Fair Phoebus’ fire engage in swift decline
    And gloom to darkest red, which ‘ere was gold,
    And soon to Night return this world of thine.
    A most faire Knight, who dreams the great reborn,
    Sets out with divers men upon his quest;
    And pray this don shall find his golden morn,
    And spread his Dawn throughout a wokening West.
    But I, poore drybone poet I,
    Do feare for thee when thinking on thy schooles;
    And from my bed in Holy Trinity,
    I dreame thy dawn be but for Feast of Fooles.
    My face is gone; my name shall follow soon;
    Mayhap Knight’s Dawn shall be but rise of moon.

  • @whorefinder
    @neutral

    Jews and blacks have a profound desire to appropriate white gentile geniuses and creations as their own.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Yes, if I had a nickel for every time the boys at Temple Beth-El whined, “You know, just between you and me, William Shakespeare was really Jewish”…..

    And I thought that it was only the idiot left that whined about cultural appropriation…

    Anyway, you haven’t really seen Hamlet unless you’ve seen it in the original Yiddish.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @Jack D

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/was-william-shakespeare-a-jewish-woman-in-disguise-1.246717

    You do realize I was referring to that, don't you?

    And there is always a Jewish attempt at cultural appropriation---it's why they project it onto others. They are all about claiming someone famous had Jewish blood or that something is Jewish derived. Adam Sandler makes light of this Jewish tendency in his Hannakuh Songs (e.g. "Bruce Springsteen isn't/but my mother thinks he is" and "Harrison Ford's a quarter Jewish/not too shabby!"). Whenever Elvis is brought up, you can bet someone Jewish will chime in about how he had Jewish blood.

    , @SFG
    @Jack D

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHOyfd5vYr4

    And here's a little of Spock doing it:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QAYvI5CC5s

  • @keypusher
    @Steve Sailer

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn’t a high prestige field.

    It's a little more complicated than than. Yes, actors were considered little better than criminals, but on the other hand Shakespeare's company appeared regularly before Queen Elizabeth and then King James. They were called the Lord Chamberlain's Men, and then the King's Men, and it wasn't just a figure of speech.

    A number of books gathering examples of fine writing were published in London around 1600. Non-dramatic poets got the most citations, but playwrights also got plenty of quotes, and Shakespeare by far the most among playwrights (of course Venus and Adonis and The Rape of Lucrece got cited too). Plays (especially Shakespeare's) were a staple in the bookshops.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn’t hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    That's fair. His reputation in the 17th century is hard to get a handle on. Bentley wrote a book arguing that Jonson had a better reputation among writers, but the publication data indicates pretty clearly that Shakespeare remained much more popular among readers. Different critics had different favorites, but my sense is that there was no consensus that Shakespeare was better than Jonson or Beaumont and Fletcher. Interestingly, Dryden said that Beaumont and Fletcher were better at portraying gentlemen, evidently because they came from a higher social class.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Probably Shakespeare was a fairly big pop culture figure in his time who got invited to a lot of aristocratic get-togethers, although kind of a behind the scenes figure for the people in the know, but few at the time expected his work to last.

    Perhaps Swedish pop songwriter Max Martin might be a present day analog. He’s clearly the top man in his field and respected by other top people, although he’s not as famous with the general public as the stars he writes for. But nobody expects his songs to be remembered in 400 years.

    Granted, many of my speculations about Shakespeare are influenced by “Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure …” where Bill and Ted’s future heavy metal band Wyyyld Stallions are the basis of the culture of the 27th Century.

    • Replies: @Ttjy
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve, You posted a Shakespeare quote several years ago and I thought it was good and wanted to save it, but I forgot.

    I know this sounds crazy, but I am wondering if you remember the times you quoted him?

    It was about life I believe. I can't remember the play it was in either.

    Is that vague enough for you?

    It's a shot in the dark.

    , @Njguy73
    @Steve Sailer


    But nobody expects his songs to be remembered in 400 years.
     
    Any thoughts on this?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/magazine/which-rock-star-will-historians-of-the-future-remember.html
  • @Desiderius
    @syonredux

    In other words, you've got nothing or can't be bothered.

    Not good enough.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @David, @syonredux

    When I read The Tempest for the first time and came to Prospero’s exhortation to keep alive his goal to please by opening his book and filling his sails with wind, it was as if Shakespeare were talking directly to me, imploring me to keep him alive. I reached out to pat his knee and assure him we would but, surprising to me at the time, my hand whiffed.

    Dr. Johnson was reading Macbeth in his father’s book store when at the second appearance of the Weird Sisters he dropped the book and ran into the street to get away.

    I suggest that you Download the BBC collection of RSC performances of Shakespeare’s plays. Watch a couple that you’ve never seen before. For example, Marry Wives. Or watch the Henry VI series. Have a drink.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @David


    Dr. Johnson was reading Macbeth in his father’s book store when at the second appearance of the Weird Sisters he dropped the book and ran into the street to get away.
     
    He also noted how the conclusion to King Lear was simply too much for the reader/audience to endure.
  • @I, Libertine
    @Steve Sailer

    For most of the "might haves" or "must haves" we have for William Shakspere (or Shagsper, or other variations of the spelling on his six extant signatures, none of them "Shakespeare") of Stratford, we have "definitely did" for Edward DeVere. Intimate knowledge of the language of law is one of them, requiring Stratfordians to include "service as a law clerk" as one of the many things he "must have" or at least "might have" done during the lost years.

    If you really want to get a feel for how deeply the language of the law is ingrained into the speech of Shakespeare's characters, check out the work Sir George Greenwood.

    As a salient example, I quote Mistress Page from The Merry Wives of Windsor:

    The spirit of wantonness is, sure, scared out of
    him: if the devil have him not in fee-simple, with
    fine and recovery, he will never, I think, in the
    way of waste, attempt us again.

    Here is Shakespeare placing in the mouth of a housewife (indeed, a commoner) "fine and recovery," a term for obscure legal proceeding, which she tosses out during a casual conversation.

    Shakespeare studied law, alright.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @keypusher, @whorefinder, @dfordoom

    Oh, god, not this.

    De Vere got an honorary degree as a teenager. There is no evidence that he knew much about law or anything else. His Latin was miserable. Some people seem to have gotten the idea that he was brilliant as a youth. If so, he got dropped on his head shortly after that. You can read all his letters and memos, if you can stand them, here.

    http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ahnelson/oxlets.html

    A biographer had this to say:

    Variability. Oxford had no settled way of spelling many common words: see, for example, his eleven different ways of spelling “halfpenny”, or six of “buy” (also by, buye, bvy, bwy, bwye). Given his presumed legal training (for which there is in fact no solid evidence), it is noteworthy that he had no consistent way of spelling “attorney” (also atturney, atturnie, atturnye, aturnye) and had eleven different ways of spelling “suit” along with “suitor” and their plurals.

    Selective consistency. Oxford tended to write “cowld” for could, “showld” for should, and most particularly “wowld” for would (but on one occasion, he wrote “sowlde” for “should”). He almost always (and very idiosyncratically) wrote “lek” for like, not only in the simple verb, but in such combination forms as “misleke” and “leklywhodes”. These spellings alone are almost enough to identify a piece of writing as his.

    Dialectal variants. Oxford uniformly wrote “oft” or “ofte” for ought (OED defines “oft” as an obsolete or dialectal form of aught, ought) and wrote “lek” for like (discussed above). He often put a “t” (sometimes “th”) at the end of “although”, “enough”, “though”, or “through”. He also put a “t” at the end of “prop”, spelling it “propt”; similarly, he wrote “slypte” for “slip”, and “hightnes” for “highness”. He usually spelled “satisfy” as “satisfise”. Instead of so and so many pounds “a year”, he wrote so and so many pounds “of year”; conversely, for “any kind of way” he wrote “any kind away”. His spelling of like in almost all forms as “lek” and his spelling of liklihoods as “leklywhodes” and falsehood as “falswhood” reveal e-for-i and wh-for-h substitutions which are fully characteristic of the East Anglian dialect – Oxford spent his formative years in Essex and Cambridge. Clearly, Oxford habitually spoke a dialect recognized by contemporaries as provincial and even as rustic.

    Idiosyncratic substitutions. Oxford often wrote “v” for “w” or “u”, resulting in the highly unusual spelling of law as “lave” and lawyers as “lavers”; see also variants of “buy” in No. 1 above.
    Spellings based on the mis-hearing of words. The most startling instance is Oxford’s spelling of “stannary” as “stammerye”. The “stannaries” were the tin mines, from late Latin stannum.
    Clearly, Oxford misheard the n’s as m’s and did not make the correction (as any person cognizant of Latin would certainly have done) from an awareness of the word’s etymology. Such misheard words are legion in Oxford’s letters.

    Defective Latin. When writing Latin, particularly legal Latin, Oxford frequently made serious grammatical errors and sometimes misspelled words.

    http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ahnelson/oxspell.html

    In the so-called authorship question, it’s pretty simple: there’s evidence that William Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the canon, and there is zero evidence for anyone else. But even if it wasn’t Shakespeare of Stratford, it sure as hell wasn’t the idiot Earl of Oxford.

    For much, much more, see: http://oxfraud.com/

    • Replies: @I, Libertine
    @keypusher

    Oh, God , indeed.

    What examples do you have of what the guy from Stratford wrote? Not the plays or poems; don't assume the truth of your hypothesis to prove your hypothesis. None of them are in his hand. What else? All the letters he wrote back and forth, since he split time between London and Stratford? Funny how none of them have survived, isn't it?

    Here is for a few months, in London creating works of art that are fated to survive for centuries. Then there he is, back in Stratford after a two day ride, hoarding grain and suing people over petty debts. Then back in London. Then back to Stratford. Sometimes in Stratford while he's supposed to be in London. Clark Kent and Superman. Just like any of the world's greatest artists. But leaving no paper trail.

    We say again: there is no direct or circumstantial evidence, no documents created during his lifetime, associating the Stratford man with the "Shakespeare" who wrote the plays and poems. Nothing until the First Folio: hearsay created seven years after the Stratford man's death (which oddly went unnoticed at the time). Yes, of course, there's mention of "Shakespeare" as an author before 1616, and documents establishing the existence of the Stratford guy. But none associating the two.

    One list of people paid for the performance of a Shakespeare play; two cast lists for plays written by others; that's as close as Stratfordians have come to associating "Shagspere" with our genius. That's some evidence of his involvement with the London stage, as a financier and actor. That's no evidence of authorship, let alone of the talent of an immortal.

    Oxfraud? Read that, and read the many authorities that rebut it. And they rebut it well. Make up your own mind.

    But what do I know? I'm just a snob, like all anti-Stratfordians, right?

    Replies: @keypusher

  • @TheJester
    The Nobel Prize-winning author, V. S. Naipaul, from Trinidad would have been a better choice than Andre Lorde if the issue was simply finding a non-White writer-of-note to replace Shakespeare.

    Naipaul "mainlined" a classical British education, including matriculating at Oxford. As I recall from reading his works years ago, Naipaul was in love with all things European -- especially what was British -- as the epitome of high culture and civilization. I guess that disqualified him. It had to be someone who was "colored" and unknown and detested Western Civilization as the world's single source of "intersectional oppression" imposed on everyone who is non-White.

    I'm pessimistic that the Millennials can get an education that can equal Naipaul's in the current atmosphere in academia ... especially at Ivy League schools.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Jack D, @Bill B.

    Naipaul is politically incorrect. A Bend in the River is scathing in its portrayal of Africans, even more so because it is absolutely true to life. He talks about European infrastructure returning to the bush once the Europeans leave. Indians (there was a large Indian merchant community in Africa, especially Uganda, that occupied the same niche that Jews occupied in E. Europe and in American ghettos but was ultimately expelled – they went to England and are doing very well there) are not that crazy about Africans and they are not as afraid as white people to tell the truth since they are semi-immune from charges of racism.

  • @Dave Pinsen
    A suitable prank at this point would be to replace the pic of Lorde with one of the eponymous young white Kiwi songstress.

    Replies: @Johnny Smoggins, @The Plutonium Kid

    Or replace it with a photo of any random black woman and see if anybody even notices.

  • @Mike Sylwester
    Here's some of a Lorde poem titled "Never to Dream of Spiders"

    Time collapses between the lips of strangers
    my days collapse into a hollow tube
    soon implodes against now
    like an iron wall
    my eyes are blocked with rubble
    a smear of perspectives
    blurring each horizon
    in the breathless precision of silence
    one word is made.

    [blah blah blah blah]

    Day three day four day ten
    the seventh step
    a veiled door leading to my golden anniversary
    flameproofed free-paper shredded
    in the teeth of a pillaging dog
    never to dream of spiders
    and when they turned the hoses upon me
    a burst of light.

    [the end]
     

    Here's a poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, titled "The Children's Hour"

    Between the dark and the daylight,
    When the night is beginning to lower,
    Comes a pause in the day's occupations,
    That is known as the Children's Hour.

    I hear in the chamber above me
    The patter of little feet,
    The sound of a door that is opened,
    And voices soft and sweet.

    From my study I see in the lamplight,
    Descending the broad hall stair,
    Grave Alice, and laughing Allegra,
    And Edith with golden hair.

    A whisper, and then a silence:
    Yet I know by their merry eyes
    They are plotting and planning together
    To take me by surprise.

    A sudden rush from the stairway,
    A sudden raid from the hall!
    By three doors left unguarded
    They enter my castle wall!

    They climb up into my turret
    O'er the arms and back of my chair;
    If I try to escape, they surround me;
    They seem to be everywhere.

    They almost devour me with kisses,
    Their arms about me entwine,
    Till I think of the Bishop of Bingen
    In his Mouse-Tower on the Rhine!

    Do you think, O blue-eyed banditti,
    Because you have scaled the wall,
    Such an old mustache as I am
    Is not a match for you all!

    I have you fast in my fortress,
    And will not let you depart,
    But put you down into the dungeon
    In the round-tower of my heart.

    And there will I keep you forever,
    Yes, forever and a day,
    Till the walls shall crumble to ruin,
    And moulder in dust away!
     

    http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/never-to-dream-of-spiders/

    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/44628

    Replies: @Olorin, @Buffalo Joe

    Mike, If I read and understand her words correctly, the dog ate her homework…”in the teeth of a pillaging Dog.” It’s not a poem but an excuse for missing a homework assignment. Must have gotten into the poetry portfolio by mistake. By the way, who penned the classic ” There once was a man from Nantucket”?

  • @Pontius
    Pfffffff,

    Our government just decided to remove our first prime minister from the $10 bill and replace him with a black woman who bought a ticket to the theatre in the 1940's. You all have some catchin' up to do.


    /sarc

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-banknote-woman-1.3885844

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @Buffalo Joe

    Pontius, I wonder what movie was playing, golden if it was an “Amos and Andy” short.

  • @I, Libertine
    @Steve Sailer

    For most of the "might haves" or "must haves" we have for William Shakspere (or Shagsper, or other variations of the spelling on his six extant signatures, none of them "Shakespeare") of Stratford, we have "definitely did" for Edward DeVere. Intimate knowledge of the language of law is one of them, requiring Stratfordians to include "service as a law clerk" as one of the many things he "must have" or at least "might have" done during the lost years.

    If you really want to get a feel for how deeply the language of the law is ingrained into the speech of Shakespeare's characters, check out the work Sir George Greenwood.

    As a salient example, I quote Mistress Page from The Merry Wives of Windsor:

    The spirit of wantonness is, sure, scared out of
    him: if the devil have him not in fee-simple, with
    fine and recovery, he will never, I think, in the
    way of waste, attempt us again.

    Here is Shakespeare placing in the mouth of a housewife (indeed, a commoner) "fine and recovery," a term for obscure legal proceeding, which she tosses out during a casual conversation.

    Shakespeare studied law, alright.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @keypusher, @whorefinder, @dfordoom

    Alternatively, he picked up knowledge merely from apprenticing in the theater.

    Too many people discount the fact that many terms and subjects Shakespeare was dealing with were already part of theater language. Plays and source material of his time already dealt with subjects such as law, religion, astronomy, war, etc. You didn’t need a background in it, and if you did you could just grab someone with some knowledge of the area and pump them for some info to fill in the occasional gap.

    Picture it this way: a screenwriter today could get away with writing a Western without any first hand knowledge about being a cowboy. Why? Simple: because we have a ton of movies and books about being cowboys. He could just watch a bunch of them, read an encyclopedia entry on things he needed more info on, and then talk to a few people familiar with a few actual cowboys or cowboy historians to fill in any remaining gaps.

    Every time people say Shakespeare must have had a background in this area or that, I think of this scene from Catch Me If You Can where Leo’s character Frank Abignale is a con artist, is not a pilot and has absolutely no background or ability to fly a plane, but cons the two pilots into giving him a free ride by knowing the pilot lingo cold just from listening to other pilots from before:

    • Replies: @David
    @whorefinder

    Shakespeare's first big hit was Henry VI in three parts. It borrowed generously from Tacitus' Histories, which was in William's youth, and was just 100 years ago, standard fare in English primary education. It was likely fresh in Shakespeare's mind if not actually in his hand.

    Think how much great literature the Sisters Bronte, as they say, were able to make of their "bounded in a nutshell" existence.

    Shakespeare is subject to the Greatest Samurai problem. Everyone wants to prove himself to be the greatest samurai by attacking Shakespeare.

    , @I, Libertine
    @whorefinder

    You seem like a bright guy, but my goodness! Frank Abagnale as an explanation for Shaksper's intimate knowledge of: law, falconry, sailing, the details of Italian geography, romance languages (don't believe that "small Latin and less Greek" red herring from Jonson; Shakespeare wrote adaptions of stories not yet translated into English), music, ancient history, equestrian sports, etc etc. To say nothing of an intimate acquaintance with the Earl of Southampton.

    Yes, he could have.

    He


    must have
     
    !

    After all, since we know a prior that Shakspere was Shakespeare, it is certain that he


    did
     
    . Somehow.

    Well, DeVere did. Not just somehow. He did.

    I think somebody on this thread said DeVere didn't study law intensely. Do your own research, folks.

    During edit time: I don't know the reason for the bad formatting. I blame Steve.

    Replies: @keypusher, @whorefinder

  • @Lagertha
    @Ivy

    Yessss, Ivy; our Ivy! These fracking, intellectually lazy & challenged students should be fighting like crazy for Otto Warmbier (warm beer, whatever...:)) who did stupid stuff (now must serve 15 years hard labor??????!!!!!) with a flag in N. Korea.

    I really hate these Ivy students of today - God, I hate these kids - thank god my sons are not like these epic assholes. They are so full of narcissism that they don't even know they are losers - haha. They don't care about rights/freedom/free speech, never did, They have proved to the public that they are ok to ignore a fellow student imprisoned in North Korea - this is national news....oh shit, I am expecting too much from Millennials.

    They don't give a shit about Otto (too Waspy/German and all that) except to talk about their petty "safe space" or "identitarian" shit. Memo to students: Shakespeare is way over your stupid ass; white or black - sorry he was smarter and cooler than you centuries ago - ouch. Go fight for Otto and get him the F out of North Korea! - prove to me that you have balls/c*nt, or are as strong as a Shield Maiden! Forget Trump; this is something all you dumb-ass, privileged Ivy League kids, could actually get your 15 minutes to prove to many that you are not the coddled, weak, spoiled and useless people everyone thinks you are! I love my sons (and their friends I know), I hate so many of their peers because they are useless and give excuses, excuses, excuses. My grandfather's day: excuses=frozen to death.

    Replies: @Cwhatfuture, @Buffalo Joe

    Lagertha, Hate is such a strong word and emotion. Dial your feelings back a notch or two before it effects your mental well being. Otherwise, I like your comments.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Buffalo Joe

    I know....I was very angry at a situation I have no control of last night - then my bad moods get triggered by something like this: this drive to attack the icons of culture/art/literature /music of Western Civilization all the time, the last few years. My moods are good for my art work, but agree that I don't need to rant :). But there needs to be push-back soon against doing something like dissing Shakespeare by young people who claim to be university students.

    Replies: @SFG

  • @IHTG
    Oh yeah:

    https://twitter.com/dcexaminer/status/808796085284114432

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Thanks, I’ll post.

  • @res
    @Trelane

    Thanks for that The Times link!

    The full paper behind that The Times article is available at http://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-016-0005

    Here is an iSteve article from two years ago about the Dunedin Study: https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-dunedin-study-nature-nurture-over-40-years/

    And here is a link to James Thompson's blog (mentioned by Steve) calling out an early keynote speech about this paper: http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.com/2014/12/attending-conferences-test-of.html

    Hopefully Dr. Thompson and/or Steve will comment on the current paper.

    More about the Dunedin Study and its members: http://dunedinstudy.otago.ac.nz/studies/assessment-phases/the-study-members

    Regarding the paper:

    I thought Figure 4 did a good job of showing the dramatic cost differences between the high cost (22% of subjects) and the low cost (30%) groups.

    There is more detail in the supplementary materials PDF including this:


    The dataset reported in the current article is not publicly available due to lack of informed consent and ethical approval, but is available from the corresponding author on reasonable request by qualified scientists.
     
    Page 9 of the SM had an interesting table of social cost category burden by sex. Not surprising that men dominated (~75%) crime and injury claims, but I was a bit surprised by how much women dominated hospital stays and prescription fills (by 71/63%).

    Page 7 of the SM has details of the age 3 test(s) they used.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Thanks, I’ll post.

  • @Jack D
    @whorefinder

    Yes, if I had a nickel for every time the boys at Temple Beth-El whined, "You know, just between you and me, William Shakespeare was really Jewish".....

    And I thought that it was only the idiot left that whined about cultural appropriation...

    Anyway, you haven't really seen Hamlet unless you've seen it in the original Yiddish.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @SFG

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/was-william-shakespeare-a-jewish-woman-in-disguise-1.246717

    You do realize I was referring to that, don’t you?

    And there is always a Jewish attempt at cultural appropriation—it’s why they project it onto others. They are all about claiming someone famous had Jewish blood or that something is Jewish derived. Adam Sandler makes light of this Jewish tendency in his Hannakuh Songs (e.g. “Bruce Springsteen isn’t/but my mother thinks he is” and “Harrison Ford’s a quarter Jewish/not too shabby!”). Whenever Elvis is brought up, you can bet someone Jewish will chime in about how he had Jewish blood.

  • @Androgynous Misogynist
    Audre' Lorde looks like Obama.

    Replies: @bored identity, @Buffalo Joe

    Androgynous, So maybe Obama does have a son.

  • @Trelane
    “We invite everyone to join us in the task of critical thinking..."

    Critical thinking is quite different from systems thinking. Siskel and Ebert versus Einstein and Feynman I'd say. Thumbs up and thumbs down is the hallmark of critical thinking; "Noticing things" is a feature of systems thinking; . A mon Avis

    Also I point to The Times for this unexpected article that is right up iSteve Alley.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/three-year-olds-can-be-identified-as-criminals-of-the-future-5vwwf8lkq

    Replies: @Trelane, @res, @guest

    “Critical thinking” doesn’t mean thinking like a movie critic on tv. Most commonly it means nothing, just something to say. Often it is intended to mean thinking deconstructively. As in, tearing things down.

    You know: hey-hey, ho-ho, Western Civ. gas got to go!

  • @Steve Sailer
    @Amasius

    Probably a majority of famous artists have been sons of somebody in their eventual field, but among future famous artists who were bourgeois and not the sons of artists, a career in the law comes up all the time as the safe choice promoted by their parents.

    For example, Robert Louis Stevenson came from a dynasty of lighthouse architects. His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn't terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he'd study law to be safe in case the writing didn't work out. Stevenson passed the bar exam, and his father invested in a brass nameplate reading "R.L. Stevenson, Advocate," but he never practiced law.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @guest, @Karl

    For most of human history almost all intellectual occupations have been lowly or middling. Certainly that’s been the case for a majority of the time in which we’ve documented and cared (or pretended to care) about the lives of artists. What line of work would a Good Burgher push his egghead son into? The “professions,” obviously: doctor, lawyer. If he’s good with words, lawyer is the best fit.

    You can’t be too proud of a newspaperman or a schoolteacher.

  • @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/808476572529360897

    Trump derangement syndrome in action.

    Replies: @Amasius, @fish, @guest, @Hubbub

    He’d probably be happier if POTUS declassifies nothing, because their evidence against Russia I’m guessing amounts to “Wikileaks totally feels like them, man.”

  • @ice hole
    While this action was childish, attention-seeking, and mildly disruptive, I hardly think that it qualifies as "the blackest thing ever." In the contemporary context, the list of contenders for the blackest thing ever would have to be quite a bit more "transgressive" than this.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Ice, To me this is disrespectful at best, but not quite as bad as tipping over gravestones. I think we will see that next, after all, monuments and statues are all ready being removed.

    • Agree: Kylie
  • @I, Libertine
    @Steve Sailer

    For most of the "might haves" or "must haves" we have for William Shakspere (or Shagsper, or other variations of the spelling on his six extant signatures, none of them "Shakespeare") of Stratford, we have "definitely did" for Edward DeVere. Intimate knowledge of the language of law is one of them, requiring Stratfordians to include "service as a law clerk" as one of the many things he "must have" or at least "might have" done during the lost years.

    If you really want to get a feel for how deeply the language of the law is ingrained into the speech of Shakespeare's characters, check out the work Sir George Greenwood.

    As a salient example, I quote Mistress Page from The Merry Wives of Windsor:

    The spirit of wantonness is, sure, scared out of
    him: if the devil have him not in fee-simple, with
    fine and recovery, he will never, I think, in the
    way of waste, attempt us again.

    Here is Shakespeare placing in the mouth of a housewife (indeed, a commoner) "fine and recovery," a term for obscure legal proceeding, which she tosses out during a casual conversation.

    Shakespeare studied law, alright.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @keypusher, @whorefinder, @dfordoom

    Shakespeare studied law, alright.

    There’s his famous line, “The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.” That sounds to me like the kind of line that would really appeal to a lawyer. They tend to be amused by the fact that most people hate them. I think it strengthens the assertion that he studied law.

    • Replies: @keypusher
    @dfordoom

    Actually, that was probably written by Marlowe, much as I love the Jack Cade scenes. See

    https://www.amazon.com/Shakespeare-Computers-Mystery-Authorship-Craig/dp/1107407087

  • @AKAHorace
    Off topic, but of interest.

    Anna Di Franco's argument for/against the Electoral college.

    http://www.salon.com/2016/12/13/ani-difranco-we-the-people-are-in-charge-and-we-can-insist-the-electoral-college-voters-save-our-democracy/


    A functioning media does not simply spread lies or amplify would-be dictators because it’s good for ratings. The media is in many ways complicit in, if not responsible for, the Trump phenomenon. The overwhelming support of him by the media, intentional or not, has driven and will continue to drive our relationship with the man.

    [exised]

    Enough citizens working in the media must acknowledge the existence of the Electoral College to inspire enough other citizens to call their state assembly members, contact their electors, march on their state capitols and demand that the Electoral College fulfill its suddenly crucial duty of oversight. We need a critical mass of citizens to demand that the Electoral College provide the antidote to the very disease it created.

    Then, I believe, we should abolish it once and for all before it can wreak such havoc again. The Electoral College is an undemocratic convolution that stands between us and the concept of one person, one vote that Americans live by. It is the reason that we are in this mess to begin. It is, ironically, the only thing now that can get us out. We should use it to correct its mistake and then we should remove it from obstructing direct democracy in the future.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Buffalo Joe

    AKA, Is this Ani Di Franco, the ex patriot Buffalo song writer, who wrote this? I remember Ms. Di Franco being shunned and shamed because she had the temerity to host a women’s forum at a resort with the word Plantation in it’s name. Is it safe for Ani to show her face yet?

  • @Lagertha
    @whorefinder

    eff all you guys, named Joe. My mother (late 80's now) wrote her Master's Thesis on the truthiness of Shakespeare in 1951. I will, only, if you all want it posted here (somehow..Steve & Ron will have to help me do that...so yeah, never gonna happen! - cause I'm too " out there!") about her conclusion that WS absolutely wrote his own SH*T. My mother, just lately said, "why are people still debating this? Is it so hard for people today to think that people centuries ago weren't burdened with all the stuff that we are burdened with and confounded with today?" In her own words, she said that there were always people like her son (my brother) who were hell-bent on questioning the status quo. And, Steve, Ron, many others, are the guys who have the very forums where we, the lost/jaded/tired, come and find other people talking about truthiness. Shit, I'm outta time! I'm still...aaw forget it. I have to get up early and be alert.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Lagertha, Thanks for the invitation to, well you know what. I’ll ask my wife if it’s ok with her.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @AKAHorace

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn't a high prestige field. It's kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn't hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.

    Replies: @JimB, @keypusher, @Daniel Williams, @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @guest, @guest

    I once heard Vince McMahon argue that his art was the Shakespeare of our day because Shakespeare was also looked down upon. Of course, that’s at best half an argument.

    Don’t get carried away with yourself. Barely anyone bothers relistening to episodes of Howard Stern, let alone reads transcripts of them. It would be better to pick, I don’t know, Harry Potter as eventually being considered High Art.

    Ifsoever Stern is placed alongside Shakespeare, it would mean our civilization had already collapsed. Shakespeare’s world had of course ceased to be by the time his reputation was inflated all out of proportion to his contemporaries in the last couple of centuries. But there was and is still something of Western Civilization amongst us.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @guest

    Vince McMahon's stuff is awfully entertaining.

    Maybe in the future the WWE will be the basis of our culture and scholars will debate Vince McMahon's status. They will watch and rewatch the video of Vince being punched in the face by the President, looking for subtle clues.

    Replies: @guest, @whorefinder

    , @Desiderius
    @guest


    Don’t get carried away with yourself. Barely anyone bothers relistening to episodes of Howard Stern, let alone reads transcripts of them. It would be better to pick, I don’t know, Harry Potter as eventually being considered High Art.
     
    It's no wonder that he's blind on this question, given that our best analogue to Shakespeare in his day may well be Sailer himself.
  • @keypusher
    @I, Libertine

    Oh, god, not this.

    De Vere got an honorary degree as a teenager. There is no evidence that he knew much about law or anything else. His Latin was miserable. Some people seem to have gotten the idea that he was brilliant as a youth. If so, he got dropped on his head shortly after that. You can read all his letters and memos, if you can stand them, here.

    http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ahnelson/oxlets.html

    A biographer had this to say:

    Variability. Oxford had no settled way of spelling many common words: see, for example, his eleven different ways of spelling "halfpenny", or six of "buy" (also by, buye, bvy, bwy, bwye). Given his presumed legal training (for which there is in fact no solid evidence), it is noteworthy that he had no consistent way of spelling "attorney" (also atturney, atturnie, atturnye, aturnye) and had eleven different ways of spelling "suit" along with "suitor" and their plurals.

    Selective consistency. Oxford tended to write "cowld" for could, "showld" for should, and most particularly "wowld" for would (but on one occasion, he wrote "sowlde" for "should"). He almost always (and very idiosyncratically) wrote "lek" for like, not only in the simple verb, but in such combination forms as "misleke" and "leklywhodes". These spellings alone are almost enough to identify a piece of writing as his.

    Dialectal variants. Oxford uniformly wrote "oft" or "ofte" for ought (OED defines "oft" as an obsolete or dialectal form of aught, ought) and wrote "lek" for like (discussed above). He often put a "t" (sometimes "th") at the end of "although", "enough", "though", or "through". He also put a "t" at the end of "prop", spelling it "propt"; similarly, he wrote "slypte" for "slip", and "hightnes" for "highness". He usually spelled "satisfy" as "satisfise". Instead of so and so many pounds "a year", he wrote so and so many pounds "of year"; conversely, for "any kind of way" he wrote "any kind away". His spelling of like in almost all forms as "lek" and his spelling of liklihoods as "leklywhodes" and falsehood as "falswhood" reveal e-for-i and wh-for-h substitutions which are fully characteristic of the East Anglian dialect - Oxford spent his formative years in Essex and Cambridge. Clearly, Oxford habitually spoke a dialect recognized by contemporaries as provincial and even as rustic.

    Idiosyncratic substitutions. Oxford often wrote "v" for "w" or "u", resulting in the highly unusual spelling of law as "lave" and lawyers as "lavers"; see also variants of "buy" in No. 1 above.
    Spellings based on the mis-hearing of words. The most startling instance is Oxford's spelling of "stannary" as "stammerye". The "stannaries" were the tin mines, from late Latin stannum.
    Clearly, Oxford misheard the n's as m's and did not make the correction (as any person cognizant of Latin would certainly have done) from an awareness of the word's etymology. Such misheard words are legion in Oxford's letters.

    Defective Latin. When writing Latin, particularly legal Latin, Oxford frequently made serious grammatical errors and sometimes misspelled words.


    http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ahnelson/oxspell.html

    In the so-called authorship question, it's pretty simple: there's evidence that William Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the canon, and there is zero evidence for anyone else. But even if it wasn't Shakespeare of Stratford, it sure as hell wasn't the idiot Earl of Oxford.

    For much, much more, see: http://oxfraud.com/

    Replies: @I, Libertine

    Oh, God , indeed.

    What examples do you have of what the guy from Stratford wrote? Not the plays or poems; don’t assume the truth of your hypothesis to prove your hypothesis. None of them are in his hand. What else? All the letters he wrote back and forth, since he split time between London and Stratford? Funny how none of them have survived, isn’t it?

    Here is for a few months, in London creating works of art that are fated to survive for centuries. Then there he is, back in Stratford after a two day ride, hoarding grain and suing people over petty debts. Then back in London. Then back to Stratford. Sometimes in Stratford while he’s supposed to be in London. Clark Kent and Superman. Just like any of the world’s greatest artists. But leaving no paper trail.

    We say again: there is no direct or circumstantial evidence, no documents created during his lifetime, associating the Stratford man with the “Shakespeare” who wrote the plays and poems. Nothing until the First Folio: hearsay created seven years after the Stratford man’s death (which oddly went unnoticed at the time). Yes, of course, there’s mention of “Shakespeare” as an author before 1616, and documents establishing the existence of the Stratford guy. But none associating the two.

    One list of people paid for the performance of a Shakespeare play; two cast lists for plays written by others; that’s as close as Stratfordians have come to associating “Shagspere” with our genius. That’s some evidence of his involvement with the London stage, as a financier and actor. That’s no evidence of authorship, let alone of the talent of an immortal.

    Oxfraud? Read that, and read the many authorities that rebut it. And they rebut it well. Make up your own mind.

    But what do I know? I’m just a snob, like all anti-Stratfordians, right?

    • Replies: @keypusher
    @I, Libertine

    But what do I know? I’m just a snob, like all anti-Stratfordians, right?

    Looney was a snob, and Oxfordianism is infected with snobbery at its root, but not all anti-Stratfordians are snobs. You're all just wrong, for lots of different reasons; why you came to the belief that Oxford was Shakespeare doesn't interest me particularly.

    You clearly haven't spent any time at Oxfraud yourself, or you wouldn't trot out all those tired Oxford 101 tropes about Shakespeare. (In the second return from Parnassus play, written when Shakespeare was probably at his most famous during his own lifetime, when "Kempe" of the Lord Chamberlain's Men, Shakespeare of Stratford's company, points out that "our fellow Shakespeare" didn't go to university but is a better playwright than anyone who did, who do you think he's talking about?) But I didn't even go into that. I pointed out that Oxford was (i) not very bright (ii) not very learned. Whenever you say "the real Shakespeare was so learned" you condemn your own candidate. I didn't even discuss through his poetry, which ranges from atrocious to merely mediocre.

    Rather than Shakespeare, spend some time on de Vere. The real one, not the Oxfordian fantasy. Read Monstrous Adversary, or just spend some time at Nelson's website (I gave you some links). Like just about everyone in Elizabethan England who knew the man, he has no use for Oxford, but that doesn't matter. He's gathered all Oxford's surviving work for you, so you can read it yourself.

    Once you've been cured of Oxfordianism, you can look at any other candidates that strike your fancy. Wherever you go, you'll come back to the same place: there is evidence for Shakespeare of Stratford; there is no evidence for anyone else.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  • @Steve Sailer
    @AKAHorace

    Shakespeare was popular in his own time, although it wasn't a high prestige field. It's kind of like if in the future, funny drive time DJs become recognized as the greatest figures in our cultural history, so English departments have portraits of Howard Stern.

    But it took about 150+ years for Shakespeare to ascend to the top of the heap. He wasn't hugely in sync with the subsequent Enlightenment. They admired him, but found him old-fashioned. But when the Romantic age came along at the end of the 18th Century, the young Romantics like Goethe and Hazlitt recognized Shakespeare as the guy who had been where they wanted to go long ahead of them.

    With the spread of English around the world, Shakespeare has stayed on top ever since.

    Replies: @JimB, @keypusher, @Daniel Williams, @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @guest, @guest

    Furthermore, no DJ has yet scaled our cultural heights. However playwrights were looked down upon in Shakespeare’s time, his culture did esteem some of them. Even if they had to reach back into Greek antiquity to find worthies.

  • @Buck Turgidson
    My take on the Ivy League grads I've encountered in my professional career? Overrated. Soft. Weak. Narcissistic. Pathetic. Breezy. Kick up lots of dust and hot air. Insecure. Loud. Self-centered. Shallow. Rude. Arrogant. Unreliable. Sloppy thinkers and poor writers and analysts. Asspains. Credentialed not educated. Have lived their lives in wealthy urban bubbles and rarely have been off concrete. Zero outdoor skills or talents, wouldn't rely on them to pitch a tent properly or start a propane cook stove. Never have rolled up their sleeves and have done real work at a crap job. Never have been on a farm or shoveled manure etc. Spoiled and entitled beyond belief. No real world experience in anything. Brainwashed. No sense of humor. Don't know how to tell a joke. Prickly and intolerant. Would break out in hives if forced to drink beer from a can. Insufferable. Scared of dirt. Lazy. Poor free throw and 3-pt shooters. To be avoided whenever possible. Overwhelmed and bedazzled by their self-perceived importance, and general awesomeness. Got their degree via connections or affirmative action or both. Terrible team players. Bad listeners. Uninteresting. Loud mouthed. Trying way too hard to impress. Lose their cool under pressure. I probably missed a few but those are off the top of my head. Apologies to Ivy Leaguers who aren't like this, I am generalizing. Not all are like this, I've worked with some great ones, but stereotypes exist for a reason. Think obama and his ilk. On reflection, every one of these applies to lightweight obozo the pretender in chief.

    The Ivy League profs I've worked with generally are not this way, at all. They have impressed me as super smart, down to Earth, mega-reliable, super creative, and top flight analysts writers and thinkers. Powerful intellects. Great team players,and great leaders. Respected and respectable. Modest. Great public speakers. Funny! Great sense of humor. Good people and fun to be with. Interesting. Good listeners and world class conversationalists, definitely very cool people to have a single malt or three with. Maybe the smartest guy in the room (they all have been guys, sorry ladies) but would not care or even think about this, and likely to say "I don't think so!" if you asked him. Maybe think Larry Summers. I've worked with folks in engineering sciences and economics, though, and not 'creative' writing or wymyns studies.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Harry Baldwin, @The Last Real Calvinist

    Buck, But they have lots of credibility with people who don’t know them like you. My son, a Market Analyst , was brought to a meeting to advise a woman who controlled a large family trust. She asked him one question, “Did you graduate from Harvard ?” My son answered no. She then said, “Why should I listen to you?” His answer was simply “You won’t”, as he stood up and left. My son tracked her investments and he would have made her a solid 6% more than she earned. He has been quoted in the WSJ and retired at age 40. He didn’t need her, she could have used him.

  • @whorefinder
    I love this. The Left is actively making themselves stupid. By conscious choice. It's like watching Luddities marauding their own countryside, burning and destroying and breaking all their advanced machinery.

    I mean removing the greatest writer in the English language for a tokenism is the height of hysteria and nonsense.

    The longer they keep up this charade that Ugly is Beautiful, Men Are Women, Gays are The Same As Straight, Blacks Are the Same As Whites, Whitey is Awful, etc., the dumber, poorer, and more miserable they will get.

    Delicious to watch. Trump is actually triggering them to hurt themselves.

    Is there anything Trump can't do?

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Dieter Kief, @Stephen R. Diamond, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Is there anything Trump can’t do?

    Make Leftists think rationally. I’d put money on that.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @keypusher

    Probably Shakespeare was a fairly big pop culture figure in his time who got invited to a lot of aristocratic get-togethers, although kind of a behind the scenes figure for the people in the know, but few at the time expected his work to last.

    Perhaps Swedish pop songwriter Max Martin might be a present day analog. He's clearly the top man in his field and respected by other top people, although he's not as famous with the general public as the stars he writes for. But nobody expects his songs to be remembered in 400 years.

    Granted, many of my speculations about Shakespeare are influenced by "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure ..." where Bill and Ted's future heavy metal band Wyyyld Stallions are the basis of the culture of the 27th Century.

    Replies: @Ttjy, @Njguy73

    Steve, You posted a Shakespeare quote several years ago and I thought it was good and wanted to save it, but I forgot.

    I know this sounds crazy, but I am wondering if you remember the times you quoted him?

    It was about life I believe. I can’t remember the play it was in either.

    Is that vague enough for you?

    It’s a shot in the dark.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @I, Libertine

    Shakespeare learned a lot of stuff. For example, Hamlet has some astronomy in it. Shakespeare seems to have been interested in the Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe and the debates over geocentrism vs. heliocentrism. When Tom Stoppard directed the movie version of Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead with Oldman and Roth, he was into his science phase of self-education, so made the castle of Elsinore look like an observatory like Tycho's.

    Stoppard's plays have lots and lots of learned references suggesting formal study or apprenticeship in different fields, but, like Shakespeare, he never went to college.

    It would be interesting to see how far you could get developing a theory that Stoppard was just a front man for the real author of Stoppard's plays, who was actually Edward St. Aubyn or William D. Hamilton or Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones who, as we all know, faked his death in 1969 to get out of the limelight so he could concentrate on his playwrighting (notice the hair style similarities), or Dirk Bogarde or Prince Charles.

    Replies: @syonredux, @I, Libertine

    It would be interesting to see how far you could get developing a theory that Stoppard was just a front man for the real author of Stoppard’s plays, who was actually Edward St. Aubyn or William D. Hamilton or Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones who, as we all know, faked his death in 1969 to get out of the limelight so he could concentrate on his playwrighting (notice the hair style similarities), or Dirk Bogarde or Prince Charles.

    L Sprague DeCamp has a parody of the anti-Shakespeare theorists in one of his stories (can’t remember which, but it was part of the Viagens Interplanetarias series). A character attends a lecture where some guy is arguing that Winston Churchill was secretly the author of the works of George Bernard Shaw.

    • Replies: @guest
    @syonredux

    Churchill wasn't a peer, though, and was an open money grubber. His career wouldn't have been hurt by being a playwright. In fact, he did plenty of hack literary work, or had it done in his name. He was also born like 20 years after Shaw.

    Clever it would have been of Churchill to have concealed his talent for drama in his own fictional works. I actually kinda liked Savrola, and I'm not a big Shaw fan. But I can admit that they're not working on the same level.

  • @whorefinder
    @I, Libertine

    Alternatively, he picked up knowledge merely from apprenticing in the theater.

    Too many people discount the fact that many terms and subjects Shakespeare was dealing with were already part of theater language. Plays and source material of his time already dealt with subjects such as law, religion, astronomy, war, etc. You didn't need a background in it, and if you did you could just grab someone with some knowledge of the area and pump them for some info to fill in the occasional gap.

    Picture it this way: a screenwriter today could get away with writing a Western without any first hand knowledge about being a cowboy. Why? Simple: because we have a ton of movies and books about being cowboys. He could just watch a bunch of them, read an encyclopedia entry on things he needed more info on, and then talk to a few people familiar with a few actual cowboys or cowboy historians to fill in any remaining gaps.

    Every time people say Shakespeare must have had a background in this area or that, I think of this scene from Catch Me If You Can where Leo's character Frank Abignale is a con artist, is not a pilot and has absolutely no background or ability to fly a plane, but cons the two pilots into giving him a free ride by knowing the pilot lingo cold just from listening to other pilots from before:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow8mG8qutkw

    Replies: @David, @I, Libertine

    Shakespeare’s first big hit was Henry VI in three parts. It borrowed generously from Tacitus’ Histories, which was in William’s youth, and was just 100 years ago, standard fare in English primary education. It was likely fresh in Shakespeare’s mind if not actually in his hand.

    Think how much great literature the Sisters Bronte, as they say, were able to make of their “bounded in a nutshell” existence.

    Shakespeare is subject to the Greatest Samurai problem. Everyone wants to prove himself to be the greatest samurai by attacking Shakespeare.

  • @Corvinus
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    "In all seriousness, this really is what separate countries are for."

    America since it's inception has never been a "one racial horse" town. It is separated by race, religion, and political ideology, but bound by an unnerving resolve by its citizens to remain as one.

    "Blacks resent and are uncomfortable with white history, white culture and white heroes, much as I would feel if forced to hear rap everywhere I went, read slam poetry, and pretend I admired Mumia Abu-Jamal."

    Some blacks feel this way, as demonstrated by this cultural appropriation by a group that represents the Coalition of the Left Fringe group.

    "There are probably not two more immiscible races on Earth than African-descended and Anglo-European-descended."

    I applaud your tendency to wildly exaggerate matters. Remember, however, you invaded and invited the darkies to the party in the first place for their labor.

    "Unfortunately we’re all trapped in a bubble of liberal delusion at this point, and the more it becomes obvious that the two cultures need to go their separate ways, the more frantic the efforts to make this misbegotten marriage work."

    It's delusion all right, one of epic proportions on your part to keep insisting that blacks and whites remain separate.

    "White high culture is disappearing, withdrawing into high-IQ redoubts."

    White high culture is actually flourishing. Go read Vox Day's blog for a preview.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Remember, however, you invaded and invited the darkies to the party in the first place for their labor.

    Speak for yourself, you descendant of money-grubbing slave traders.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Charles Erwin Wilson

    "Speak for yourself, you descendant of money-grubbing slave traders."

    That statement is clearly anti-white.

    Regardless I'm Polish and German. My ancestors invaded America as "bad whites" in the mid- and late 1800's. I, and them, have a clear conscience.

    Replies: @syonredux

  • @David
    @Desiderius

    When I read The Tempest for the first time and came to Prospero's exhortation to keep alive his goal to please by opening his book and filling his sails with wind, it was as if Shakespeare were talking directly to me, imploring me to keep him alive. I reached out to pat his knee and assure him we would but, surprising to me at the time, my hand whiffed.

    Dr. Johnson was reading Macbeth in his father's book store when at the second appearance of the Weird Sisters he dropped the book and ran into the street to get away.

    I suggest that you Download the BBC collection of RSC performances of Shakespeare's plays. Watch a couple that you've never seen before. For example, Marry Wives. Or watch the Henry VI series. Have a drink.

    Replies: @syonredux

    Dr. Johnson was reading Macbeth in his father’s book store when at the second appearance of the Weird Sisters he dropped the book and ran into the street to get away.

    He also noted how the conclusion to King Lear was simply too much for the reader/audience to endure.

  • @Buffalo Joe
    @Lagertha

    Lagertha, Hate is such a strong word and emotion. Dial your feelings back a notch or two before it effects your mental well being. Otherwise, I like your comments.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    I know….I was very angry at a situation I have no control of last night – then my bad moods get triggered by something like this: this drive to attack the icons of culture/art/literature /music of Western Civilization all the time, the last few years. My moods are good for my art work, but agree that I don’t need to rant :). But there needs to be push-back soon against doing something like dissing Shakespeare by young people who claim to be university students.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Lagertha

    The Bard will long outlive his detractors. If nothing else, the theater departments, which are otherwise liberal as heck, absolutely love his stuff because the high-flown language makes up for modern English's lack of a poetic dialect. You get to put on fancy costumes and use big words, which human beings have enjoyed since we evolved.

    Replies: @Prof. Woland

  • @SPMoore8
    @Desiderius

    I think Shakespeare tends to be over-rated relative to his contemporaries (which include Marlowe, Bacon, and many others) but he's a totem for the the efflorescence of English literature under Elizabeth, which is the earliest form of English that has maintained some level of comprehensibility with our own = before that, they still relied on Latin (as a matter of fact, a lot of Bacon was originally in Latin, IIRC). That period -- which within 20 years would give us John Donne and the King James Bible, and which had already given us the Book of Common Prayer and many other foundational texts in history, philosophy, literature, and poetry (via translations, often) is, like it or not, our "cradle" for English literature. Everything subsequent looks back to it (if not to WS, personally) and therefore you can't really understand the subsequent evolution of English literature without a thorough grounding in Elizabethan=Renaissance literature, that includes Shakespeare (and many others, of course.)
    This is not only the case in terms of verse (prosody), and vocabulary, but also in terms of ideas, since the Elizabethan-Jacobean Renaissance also involved a working over -- again, in comprehensible English -- all the great ideas of Classical Antiquity.

    Substituting politics for literature, it would be sort of like removing a portrait of George Washington and replacing it with one of Barack Obama. It involves a substitution of something ephemeral, recent, and not yet tried by history or tradition, in place of something that represents the basic foundation of our verbal culture. In other words, it was and is profoundly ignorant. But that's college kids for you.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @keypusher

    I think Shakespeare tends to be over-rated relative to his contemporaries (which include Marlowe, Bacon, and many others)

    There were a lot of very good playwrights then, and some of them wrote better plays than some of Shakespeare’s, which nevertheless get produced because — Shakespeare. On the other hand, if it wasn’t for WS, maybe Jonson and Webster and B&F would never get produced at all. There are some Restoration and 18th century comedies that I loved reading but I never expect to see.

    Marlowe was great, and he would have been much greater if he hadn’t gotten murdered when he was 29. The Jew of Malta is a rattling good read, and I think it would be terrific on stage (the title is a bit of a barrier — Shakespeare was lucky that he named his comparable play for a different character, perhaps because he didn’t want it to sound too much like Marlowe’s play). That said, I think The Merchant of Venice is a much profounder work, and Shylock is a much more complex and interesting character than the comic-book supervillain Barabbas. But again, Shakespeare was in his early-mid 30s when he wrote it, and we’ll never know what Marlowe would have been doing at that age.

    I don’t know what it means to say that Shakespeare is overrated compared to Bacon. Great imaginative literature tends to last longer than scientific or political work. We still read the Greek poets, but hardly anyone reads Galen or Euclid.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @keypusher

    I was actually trying to make a case *for* Shakespeare for Desiderius, but to be honest I think WS can be criticized and I think his contemporaries don't get the credit they deserve.

    Partly it's a matter of taste, but I prefer prose to drama. But in drama, virtually all of the half dozen Marlowe plays that we know are definitely of "Shakespearean" quality. And there are many others, including anonymous plays, which is why it is not unusual for Shakespeare societies to put on non-Shakespeare plays like Dekker's "Shoemaker's Holiday" or Marlowe's "Doctor Faustus." TS Eliot was a fan of some of Chapman's plays. Fact is, there's a number of excellent plays of the period that tend to be obscured by Shakespeare's demigod status, although even today it is said that Shakespeare "had a hand" in some of them, like Edward III, or Arden of Faversham, or what have you. But if that is true then it also means that WS collaborated with other playwrights like Kyd, Lodge, and so on, which further implies they collaborated with him.

    Another part of the issue is that there has long been the idea that WS collaborated with others in the Folio plays, including Greene, Marlowe, etc. in the Henry VI plays, Peele in Titus, Wilkins in Pericles, and many others. I note that nowadays that Middleton is argued as having input in several later WS plays. I think play authorship in those days was not as clearcut as we like to think.

    WS left no prose, but Philip Sidney, Nashe, Lodge, Dekker also wrote extremely well in the idiom of late Elizabeth and early James that we associate with WS exclusively, because of his fame. Guys like Drayton, Daniel, Lodge, and Sidney, in their poetry and sonnet cycles were also very good. This is also the period where Florio translated Montaigne, North translated Plutarch, Lodge Seneca, and many others. Not to mention Holinshed's Chronicle, which turns up more or less intact in many history plays of the era, including WS.

    I agree that Oxford probably had nothing to do with any of the plays of the period. He might have had something to do with poetry. However, he was a big patron of the arts and helped support a lot of WS writing contemporaries, he should be respected for that, not mocked.

    As for Bacon, I think his Essays and other writings are great stuff, but again I suppose it's a matte r of taste. Just trying to be fair in my own estimation of the era.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @guest, @syonredux, @Desiderius

    , @guest
    @keypusher

    I was shocked how much I liked Webster, and how easy it was to read. I've read at least three Marlowes and been entertained. The Changeling by I can't remember who is great.

    How do things like Elizabethan theater happen?

    Replies: @SPMoore8

  • @Steve Sailer
    @res

    There's another important era in English literature following the copyright act of 1709 when English prose finally gets its act together with the establishment of magazines and publication of popular novels like Robinson Crusoe. The French had already developed a classic prose style a couple of generations before, but the English didn't until writers had the property rights protection to make reliable money off prose.

    Replies: @syonredux

    There’s another important era in English literature following the copyright act of 1709 when English prose finally gets its act together with the establishment of magazines and publication of popular novels like Robinson Crusoe. The French had already developed a classic prose style a couple of generations before, but the English didn’t until writers had the property rights protection to make reliable money off prose.

    Might also note the influence of the Royal Society, as they promoted a clean, lucid style of prose:

    They [fellows of the Royal Society] have therefore been most rigorous in putting in execution the only remedy that can be found for this extravagance; and that has been a constant resolution to reject all the amplifications, digressions, and swellings of style; to return back to the primitive purity and shortness, when men delivered so many things almost in an equal number of words. They have exacted from all their members a close, naked, natural way of speaking; positive expressions, clear senses, a native easiness; bringing all things as near the mathematical plainness as they can; and preferring the language of artisans, countrymen, and merchants, before that of wits or scholars.

    Thomas Sprat, History of the Royal Society

  • @Jack D

    The blackest thing ever happened on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania
     
    No, the blackest thing was when some grad student didn't give up his wallet fast enough and his mugger shot and killed him. Ever since then, Penn has security guards posted on every street corner on the campus and 5 blocks out into the surrounding "community" (ghetto). This costs them millions of $ every year but moving out of the city or becoming a school that whites and Asians are afraid to attend would have cost them billions.

    Notice that she doesn't say that this is the best thing, just the blackest. Even she doesn't have the balls to claim that Lorde is a better poet than Shakespeare.

    The problem with playing "the blackest" game is that Monique and these "black" Penn students ain't very black - on any street corner in W. Philly you could find ten brothas who are blacker than they are, inside and out. In fact, they pull these stunts BECAUSE they are insecure about their own blackness - even with affirmative action, in order to make it into the Penn English Dept. you have to use a lot of the "master's tools" and Monique looks like she is a good 50% white (there is enough Monique to make two reasonable size women, one white and one black). So if the criteria for canonization is "who is the blackest" then someone is going to tear down Lorde's picture and put up cop killer Abu Jamal's. Contests like these quickly turn into races to the bottom and those who start the contest rarely make it to the finish line. The revolution always eats its own.

    Replies: @Ivy, @Buffalo Joe

    Jack, Philly can be a shithole city. A few weeks ago roaming bands of blacks harassed and beat Temple University students, both male and female, punching and stomping them. I have a violent temper when left unchecked and I’ve floored more than a few A-holes, but I never stomped on anyone, who would do that to a girl? Such animalistic anger.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    @Buffalo Joe

    Not animalistic, savage.

  • @WorkingClass
    Academia is a foreign country to those of us who have never been there. Not even a country. More like a castle in the air. We can only wounder why it takes itself so seriously. The blaxx I know don't speak the white man's language among themselves. What are black students even doing in an English department. Are they there to appropriate white culture?

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Kylie

    Working Class, Best comment on this board, that doesn’t include the Bard’s quotes.

  • @Oleaginous Outrager

    Monique Judge is black, so she’s allowed to say things like “The blackest thing ever happened …”
     
    I don't know. Judge looks fairly light-skinned. Is there a darker-shaded individual available to give a definitive determination as to the exact level of blackness achieved by any given event? If we're going to burdened with a Progressive Stack, might as well put it to use.

    Replies: @NOTA

    We all agree it was a black day for the English department, we just disagree on how that phrase should be interpreted.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @I, Libertine

    Shakespeare learned a lot of stuff. For example, Hamlet has some astronomy in it. Shakespeare seems to have been interested in the Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe and the debates over geocentrism vs. heliocentrism. When Tom Stoppard directed the movie version of Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead with Oldman and Roth, he was into his science phase of self-education, so made the castle of Elsinore look like an observatory like Tycho's.

    Stoppard's plays have lots and lots of learned references suggesting formal study or apprenticeship in different fields, but, like Shakespeare, he never went to college.

    It would be interesting to see how far you could get developing a theory that Stoppard was just a front man for the real author of Stoppard's plays, who was actually Edward St. Aubyn or William D. Hamilton or Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones who, as we all know, faked his death in 1969 to get out of the limelight so he could concentrate on his playwrighting (notice the hair style similarities), or Dirk Bogarde or Prince Charles.

    Replies: @syonredux, @I, Libertine

    Do I correctly sense a trace of sarcasm?

  • https://twitter.com/CounterMoonbat/status/808683332879974403

    PoC lesbians just want a nuanced debate about how police force substitutes for due process… when stopping Muslim PoC refugees from slaughtering kulaks.

  • @Mr. Anon
    @Desiderius

    "Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?"

    He is the most influential dramatist in the English language. His plays continue to be performed to this day in thier (mostly) original form - even as movies intended for a wider audience. And they serve as the inspiration for much popular culture, such as Broadway musicals (West Side Story, Kiss Me Kate), movies (Ran, Throne of Blood, Forbidden Planet, The Lion King, etc.).

    Shakespeare was the greatest single phrase-maker in the English language, save perhaps for the King James Bible; Quotes of his show up everywhere. There were probably half-a-dozen Star Trek episodes, or more, the titles of which were drawn from Shakespeare's works.

    Isaac Asimov (a great Shakespeare fan, and author of Asimov's Guide to Shakespeare) posited that Shakespeare's corpus of work might have served as a break on the evolution of the English language - that the importance of his work meant that English could not change so much that Shakespeare would become unintelligible or unappreciable to, at least, educated speakers.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Lagertha, @AKAHorace, @NOTA

    Also, Shakespeare and the KJV bible have *shaped* the English language.

  • @Desiderius
    @Anonymous


    We’ve reached peak leftism.
     
    They're just getting warmed up.

    It won't peak until they have to come to terms with real, personal defeat.

    Replies: @Prof. Woland, @NOTA

    Now Venezuela, on the other hand, really does look to have reached peak leftism.

  • @syonredux
    @Desiderius


    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?
     
    Read I Henry IV, Macbeth , King Lear, The Tempest, etc

    If that doesn't do it, nothing will.

    Replies: @Opinionator, @Desiderius, @NOTA

    Reading the plays is good, but seeing the plays (videos of good productions are easy to come by) really brings things out that are hard to catch just by reading, especially if you’re not used to reading plays.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @NOTA


    Reading the plays is good, but seeing the plays (videos of good productions are easy to come by) really brings things out that are hard to catch just by reading, especially if you’re not used to reading plays.
     
    For my students, I always recommend both reading and seeing, preferably in this sequence: read, see, then re-read.
  • @Moshe
    My favorite black wordsmith is Aaron.

    Alas, but he is a character conjured by the rascal himself.

    I have the good fortune to see Titus Andronicus performed live, and then the good sense to see it performed on the following two consecutive evenings.

    http://www.shakespeare-online.com/plays/titus_5_1.html

    Replies: @NOTA

    Villain, I have *done* thy mother.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    Later 18th Century Germans like Goethe went nuts over Shakespeare. The post-Enlightenment sturm und drang boys loved Shakespeare. I don't know whether that had much to do with national rivalries or not. My vague sense is that on the Continent in 1815 a love for Shakespeare and a fondness for Napoleon tended to go together.

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/theatreblog/2010/oct/06/german-william-shakespeare

    Achieving that kind of breakout into a different language is rare but English authors, such as Lord Byron and Sir Walter Scott, started to do it regularly after Shakespeare had made it.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @syonredux

    Achieving that kind of breakout into a different language is rare but English authors, such as Lord Byron and Sir Walter Scott, started to do it regularly after Shakespeare had made it.

    Murray’s Human Accomplishment is useful for measuring that kind of thing. In order to avoid linguistic bias, he does not rate authors according to criticism and scholarship written in the same language as the author who is being evaluated (e.g., German authors are evaluated according to what non-German critics thing, Anglos according to what non-Anglos think, etc).

    So, turning to Faulkner, Hemingway, and Fitzgerald, we would expect to see Faulkner and Hemingway get higher ratings than Fitzgerald, as they have had a bigger impact outside the Anglosphere. And that’s what Murray’s numbers show:

    Faulkner:15.35

    Hemingway: 15.05

    Fitzgerald:2.84 Fitzgerald

  • @Desiderius
    @syonredux

    In other words, you've got nothing or can't be bothered.

    Not good enough.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @David, @syonredux

    In other words, you’ve got nothing or can’t be bothered.

    Not good enough.

    Compared to Shakespeare, what is good enough? If reading I Henry IV does not convince you of his greatness, how can I?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @syonredux

    That read a little more personal than I had intended.

    If you can get someone to read the play you've already done what I was suggesting. Hopefully you'll take the time to share some strategies for doing that.

  • @WorkingClass
    Academia is a foreign country to those of us who have never been there. Not even a country. More like a castle in the air. We can only wounder why it takes itself so seriously. The blaxx I know don't speak the white man's language among themselves. What are black students even doing in an English department. Are they there to appropriate white culture?

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Kylie

    “What are black students even doing in an English department. ”

    That’s what is known as trying to teach pigs to sing.

  • @NOTA
    @syonredux

    Reading the plays is good, but seeing the plays (videos of good productions are easy to come by) really brings things out that are hard to catch just by reading, especially if you're not used to reading plays.

    Replies: @syonredux

    Reading the plays is good, but seeing the plays (videos of good productions are easy to come by) really brings things out that are hard to catch just by reading, especially if you’re not used to reading plays.

    For my students, I always recommend both reading and seeing, preferably in this sequence: read, see, then re-read.

  • @Buffalo Joe
    @Jack D

    Jack, Philly can be a shithole city. A few weeks ago roaming bands of blacks harassed and beat Temple University students, both male and female, punching and stomping them. I have a violent temper when left unchecked and I've floored more than a few A-holes, but I never stomped on anyone, who would do that to a girl? Such animalistic anger.

    Replies: @Kylie

    Not animalistic, savage.

  • @David In TN
    @Anonymous

    "We've reached peak leftism."

    There is no bottom with these people, or no "peak," if you prefer.

    Replies: @syonredux, @David

    “We’ve reached peak leftism.”

    There is no bottom with these people, or no “peak,” if you prefer.

    An endless “lowerarchy”

  • @whorefinder
    @I, Libertine

    Alternatively, he picked up knowledge merely from apprenticing in the theater.

    Too many people discount the fact that many terms and subjects Shakespeare was dealing with were already part of theater language. Plays and source material of his time already dealt with subjects such as law, religion, astronomy, war, etc. You didn't need a background in it, and if you did you could just grab someone with some knowledge of the area and pump them for some info to fill in the occasional gap.

    Picture it this way: a screenwriter today could get away with writing a Western without any first hand knowledge about being a cowboy. Why? Simple: because we have a ton of movies and books about being cowboys. He could just watch a bunch of them, read an encyclopedia entry on things he needed more info on, and then talk to a few people familiar with a few actual cowboys or cowboy historians to fill in any remaining gaps.

    Every time people say Shakespeare must have had a background in this area or that, I think of this scene from Catch Me If You Can where Leo's character Frank Abignale is a con artist, is not a pilot and has absolutely no background or ability to fly a plane, but cons the two pilots into giving him a free ride by knowing the pilot lingo cold just from listening to other pilots from before:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow8mG8qutkw

    Replies: @David, @I, Libertine

    You seem like a bright guy, but my goodness! Frank Abagnale as an explanation for Shaksper’s intimate knowledge of: law, falconry, sailing, the details of Italian geography, romance languages (don’t believe that “small Latin and less Greek” red herring from Jonson; Shakespeare wrote adaptions of stories not yet translated into English), music, ancient history, equestrian sports, etc etc. To say nothing of an intimate acquaintance with the Earl of Southampton.

    Yes, he could have.

    He

    must have

    !

    After all, since we know a prior that Shakspere was Shakespeare, it is certain that he

    did

    . Somehow.

    Well, DeVere did. Not just somehow. He did.

    I think somebody on this thread said DeVere didn’t study law intensely. Do your own research, folks.

    During edit time: I don’t know the reason for the bad formatting. I blame Steve.

    • Replies: @keypusher
    @I, Libertine

    Elizabethan and Jacobean playwrights pretty much all wrote about, or made use of imagery from, Italy, the law, falconry, and so on, whether they were noble or not. "[A]n a man have not skill in hawking and hunting languages now-a-days, I'll never give a rush for him. They are more studied than the Greek or the Latin." From Every Man in his Humour.) As for "intimate knowledge of Italian geography" -- Shakespeare makes one blunder after another. For one example of many, see:

    http://stromata.tripod.com/id317_october_10_2002.htm

    A more interesting question is how a nobleman is supposed to have come by the knowledge of the wool business, leather making, bowling, bird-liming, and gardening copiously on display in the canon. Or how a man credited with introducing perfumed gloves into England (probably Oxford's greatest genuine accomplishment) came to write the first 30 or so lines of Act 2 of Henry IV Part i.

    , @whorefinder
    @I, Libertine


    law, falconry, sailing, the details of Italian geography, romance languages (don’t believe that “small Latin and less Greek” red herring from Jonson; Shakespeare wrote adaptions of stories not yet translated into English), music, ancient history, equestrian sports, etc etc.
     
    All of his knowledge could have easily been picked up by a bright man apprenticing in the theater and paying attention to the various plays already being put on and the intellectual topis of the day in London, and thereafter pumping a few experts in the field to fill in a gap or two if he wanted. His errors in geography, btw, are legendary, that's a bad example for you.

    It wasn't "expert" at all, except in the case that Shakespeare was thorough in his knowledge, like any high-level screenwriter today.

    He had a wealth of sources already available to anyone working in the theater. He honed them well, but it really isn't a surprise. Plenty of screenwriters today do it today to a far lesser extent, pumping out scripts regarding topics they aren't experts in or schooled in but they studied up on it.


    To say nothing of an intimate acquaintance with the Earl of Southampton.
     
    He had a patron. He wrote poems dedicated to the patron. Common for the time. Today's equivalent would be Matt Damon, shortly after Good Will Hunting hit it big, giving a speech or making a cameo at an event held by an influential rich dude in Hollywood.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  • @Miro23
    The University of Pennsylvania really needs to clear up this confusion.

    Have one degree course in English literature and another degree course in Lesbian Feminist & Multicultural literature and have each awarded degree clearly marked.

    Then the students can choose which degree they want, and employers know what they are getting. Traditional employers will probably go for English literature and PC LGBT employers for the Lesbian Feminist & Multicultural variant.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @NOTA

    How many people are looking to hire someone with an English degree? More likely, they either want a reasonably bright and functional person (any college degree will do) or they want specific skills or aptitudes (engineering, chemistry, accounting, nursing). The IQ test aspect is probably fulfilled as much by studying mediocre trendy writers as great writers of history.

  • @Buck Turgidson
    My take on the Ivy League grads I've encountered in my professional career? Overrated. Soft. Weak. Narcissistic. Pathetic. Breezy. Kick up lots of dust and hot air. Insecure. Loud. Self-centered. Shallow. Rude. Arrogant. Unreliable. Sloppy thinkers and poor writers and analysts. Asspains. Credentialed not educated. Have lived their lives in wealthy urban bubbles and rarely have been off concrete. Zero outdoor skills or talents, wouldn't rely on them to pitch a tent properly or start a propane cook stove. Never have rolled up their sleeves and have done real work at a crap job. Never have been on a farm or shoveled manure etc. Spoiled and entitled beyond belief. No real world experience in anything. Brainwashed. No sense of humor. Don't know how to tell a joke. Prickly and intolerant. Would break out in hives if forced to drink beer from a can. Insufferable. Scared of dirt. Lazy. Poor free throw and 3-pt shooters. To be avoided whenever possible. Overwhelmed and bedazzled by their self-perceived importance, and general awesomeness. Got their degree via connections or affirmative action or both. Terrible team players. Bad listeners. Uninteresting. Loud mouthed. Trying way too hard to impress. Lose their cool under pressure. I probably missed a few but those are off the top of my head. Apologies to Ivy Leaguers who aren't like this, I am generalizing. Not all are like this, I've worked with some great ones, but stereotypes exist for a reason. Think obama and his ilk. On reflection, every one of these applies to lightweight obozo the pretender in chief.

    The Ivy League profs I've worked with generally are not this way, at all. They have impressed me as super smart, down to Earth, mega-reliable, super creative, and top flight analysts writers and thinkers. Powerful intellects. Great team players,and great leaders. Respected and respectable. Modest. Great public speakers. Funny! Great sense of humor. Good people and fun to be with. Interesting. Good listeners and world class conversationalists, definitely very cool people to have a single malt or three with. Maybe the smartest guy in the room (they all have been guys, sorry ladies) but would not care or even think about this, and likely to say "I don't think so!" if you asked him. Maybe think Larry Summers. I've worked with folks in engineering sciences and economics, though, and not 'creative' writing or wymyns studies.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Harry Baldwin, @The Last Real Calvinist

    I helped my friend’s son move into his four-person dorm room when he entered Yale. One of the other boys was assembling a floor lamp and when joining two tubular sections pinched the skin on his finger. The resulted in a tiny blood blister such as you or I would barely notice. He rushed off to seek medical treatment and came back awhile later with his finger in a cup of crushed ice. I tried to imagine the sort of sheltered upbringing this kid must have had.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @keypusher

    Probably Shakespeare was a fairly big pop culture figure in his time who got invited to a lot of aristocratic get-togethers, although kind of a behind the scenes figure for the people in the know, but few at the time expected his work to last.

    Perhaps Swedish pop songwriter Max Martin might be a present day analog. He's clearly the top man in his field and respected by other top people, although he's not as famous with the general public as the stars he writes for. But nobody expects his songs to be remembered in 400 years.

    Granted, many of my speculations about Shakespeare are influenced by "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure ..." where Bill and Ted's future heavy metal band Wyyyld Stallions are the basis of the culture of the 27th Century.

    Replies: @Ttjy, @Njguy73

    But nobody expects his songs to be remembered in 400 years.

    Any thoughts on this?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/magazine/which-rock-star-will-historians-of-the-future-remember.html

  • @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    Whatever it costs to bribe the blacks to move to their own separate homeland is worth it; no price is too high to achieve this goal.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @MBlanc46

    Indeed. But they’ll never leave. For any price.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @Amasius

    Probably a majority of famous artists have been sons of somebody in their eventual field, but among future famous artists who were bourgeois and not the sons of artists, a career in the law comes up all the time as the safe choice promoted by their parents.

    For example, Robert Louis Stevenson came from a dynasty of lighthouse architects. His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn't terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he'd study law to be safe in case the writing didn't work out. Stevenson passed the bar exam, and his father invested in a brass nameplate reading "R.L. Stevenson, Advocate," but he never practiced law.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @guest, @Karl

    > His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn’t terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he’d study law to be safe in case the writing didn’t work out

    I vaguely remember reading that (saxophonist) Kenny G’s father, made him complete his degree in accounting before allowing him to go work paid gigs for a living.

    PS: concur on the opens-in-mobile-by-default problem.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
    @Karl

    The music world would be better off if he, Kenny G, had stuck to accounting.

    Authenticjazzman, "Mensa" society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

    , @Authenticjazzman
    @Karl

    Canceled due to unintended duplication.

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @Karl

    Kenny G should have stuck to accounting.

    , @Authenticjazzman
    @Karl

    Perhaps some can explain to my mensa mind just why this totally harmless posting has been blocked :

    " Saxophonist Kenny G's father made him complete his degree in accounting"

    The music world would have been far better off if he, KG, had stuck with accounting.

    Authenticjazzman, "Mensa" Society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

  • @TheJester
    The Nobel Prize-winning author, V. S. Naipaul, from Trinidad would have been a better choice than Andre Lorde if the issue was simply finding a non-White writer-of-note to replace Shakespeare.

    Naipaul "mainlined" a classical British education, including matriculating at Oxford. As I recall from reading his works years ago, Naipaul was in love with all things European -- especially what was British -- as the epitome of high culture and civilization. I guess that disqualified him. It had to be someone who was "colored" and unknown and detested Western Civilization as the world's single source of "intersectional oppression" imposed on everyone who is non-White.

    I'm pessimistic that the Millennials can get an education that can equal Naipaul's in the current atmosphere in academia ... especially at Ivy League schools.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Jack D, @Bill B.

    The Nobel Prize-winning author, V. S. Naipaul, from Trinidad would have been a better choice than Andre Lorde if the issue was simply finding a non-White writer-of-note to replace Shakespeare…

    I’m pessimistic that the Millennials can get an education that can equal Naipaul’s in the current atmosphere in academia … especially at Ivy League schools.

    Correct.

    I heard a Naipaul speech about a decade ago in which he excoriated Oxford University for dumbing down its English degree, turning into a “reading romp” instead of the “hard, hard” course he took in the 50s requiring IIRC deep knowledge of early English, French, the ancients, etc.

    He said such contemporary courses were “useless” because they were so easy and merely required the cadet to adopt the jargon of the adept so as to signal membership of the club “one clown to another”.

    He described modern academic language as being as pretentious of 18th Century French court talk when, he said, preening fools called teeth the “furniture of the mouth” and so on.

    • Replies: @Tulip
    @Bill B.

    Hence why paying Naipaul any respect would not further the mission of diversity, which requires rote memorization and regurgitation of slogans rather than subject matter or examinations that test critical intelligence or would clearly demonstrate hate-inducing differences in cognitive aptitudes.

    , @guest
    @Bill B.

    I know I minored in English because I wanted fun things to read. (My major forced me either to minor in something else or learn another language; this way was easier.) I often think it was a mistake to introduce English at all in education, let alone at the university level. You should he able to read and understand your own language. And what are English scholars experts in? Trivia, basically.

    Why do we pay people for the umpteenth deconstruction of a random Jane Austen novel written in jargoneses that no one will read?

  • @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer


    It would be interesting to see how far you could get developing a theory that Stoppard was just a front man for the real author of Stoppard’s plays, who was actually Edward St. Aubyn or William D. Hamilton or Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones who, as we all know, faked his death in 1969 to get out of the limelight so he could concentrate on his playwrighting (notice the hair style similarities), or Dirk Bogarde or Prince Charles.
     
    L Sprague DeCamp has a parody of the anti-Shakespeare theorists in one of his stories (can't remember which, but it was part of the Viagens Interplanetarias series). A character attends a lecture where some guy is arguing that Winston Churchill was secretly the author of the works of George Bernard Shaw.

    Replies: @guest

    Churchill wasn’t a peer, though, and was an open money grubber. His career wouldn’t have been hurt by being a playwright. In fact, he did plenty of hack literary work, or had it done in his name. He was also born like 20 years after Shaw.

    Clever it would have been of Churchill to have concealed his talent for drama in his own fictional works. I actually kinda liked Savrola, and I’m not a big Shaw fan. But I can admit that they’re not working on the same level.

  • @Cloudbuster
    @Tiny Duck

    When a Black produces something comparable to Shakespeare, then he can receive equal reverence.

    A mediocre diversity-checkbox-er does not compare.

    I went and looked up possible worthy Black authors for this post and, wow, the pickings are pretty thin. The most cited -- Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, W.E.B. Dubois, Frederick Douglas, etc. -- are all pretty much still in the ghetto -- famous for being Black and/or writing about the Black experience.

    You're really not ready for the canon until your race is incidental to the quality of your work, not integral to it.

    Women did it -- we have many women who are simply famous for being good writers not "good female writers."

    Replies: @Johnny Smoggins

    “Women did it — we have many women who are simply famous for being good writers not “good female writers.”

    Really? So where have they been hiding all these centuries?

    • Replies: @guest
    @Johnny Smoggins

    They exist, there are just so many fewer of them then their male counterparts. They can't even really outdo men in the field of trashy novels, which are almost exclusively read by women, unless they happen to be sci-fi/fantasy or history/war-related (even then, check out Outlander, for instance--yuck). You know: Austen, the Brontes...so forth.

  • @David In TN
    @Anonymous

    "We've reached peak leftism."

    There is no bottom with these people, or no "peak," if you prefer.

    Replies: @syonredux, @David

    “When you think you’ve lost everything, you find out you can always lose a little more.”

    B. Dylan

  • @Veracitor
    The old American New York Avant-Garde Antiracist Left was smarter than today's:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fstxNFdQWZQ

    The American Tribal Love-Rock Musical Hair original Broadway cast performs "What a Piece of Work is Man!"

    Replies: @SFG

    They had a great culture to tear down. Now that more tearing down has gone on…

  • @Jefferson
    "And that’s what really matters in Ivy League English Departments, not who is better at English:"

    Ebonics is English you racist White supremacist. Ebonics is just English with a different accent just like New York English, New Jersey English, Boston English, Southern U.S English, Australian English, Kiwi English, Scottish English, Jamaican English, etc. Sorry not everybody speaks English with a neutral generic accent like you.

    Replies: @TGGP, @Authenticjazzman, @SFG

    Technically, it’s known as AAVE (African-American Vernacular English) and has a few extra sub-tenses, or phases, useful for fine gradations of the present tense.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English#Tense_and_aspect

    Proves the time-preference HBD truism, actually. 😉

  • @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    I think it was partially a revolt against French cultural domination. France had such cultural sway in Europe that everyone was bowing to them, but the emergence of 19th Century nationalism, the horrors of the French revolution, and the anger/fear of Napoleon made everyone start rejecting French culture.

    The Russian aristocracy, as Tolstoy demonstrated in War and Peace, spoke French as their language. The German nation was just emerging as a cohesive whole after being a confederation for centuries, and having had to deal with French (and Italian) hegemony in the arts. Even the Ottomon Empire, declining as it was, had close cultural ties with the French. Spain, Portugal, and the Dutch had dropped off the map culturally, so England became a good place to reach to for a breath of cultural fresh air.

    And the British success in the 18th and 19th Centuries at conquering the world---but of course, avoiding conquering Europe---made them admirable to many Europeans wanting to emulate them. And the Brits made it a mission to popularize their culture.

    And then Napoleon came storming through Europe and was the terror of the land. After that, the popularity of French culture declined in hatred of his conquering.

    This is similar to how up until WW2, German culture was held in high regard by most of the west. The German film industry was a true rival to Hollywood. German industriousness, inventions, and ability were prized as the greatest flowering of the time. Freud and Nietsche were the intellectual vanguard. No less than Mark Twain was trying to learn German, and American academics developed their academic theories in response to German ones (Oliver Wendell Holmes, for example, wrote law review articles in response to German academic theories about the law). German academies were considered the place to go for intellectuals---this is why Hollywood movies stereotyped scientists with German accents.

    The WW2 happened, and Hitler's threat pretty much soured everyone on German culture.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Anonymous

    Polish nobility continued to be fluent in French
    until at least World War I, and probably beyond.
    Joseph Conrad (Korzeniowski) is a good example.
    He spoke French with no accent, and even though
    his novels are now part of the English canon and his
    wife was British, to the end of his days he spoke
    English with a thick foreign accent, as attested, for
    example, by Bertrand Russell. Russell and Conrad
    became close friends, perhaps because they both shared
    a tragic view of life. On the other hand, William James
    and Conrad spoke French when they got together to talk
    about literature. Conrad could only talk about the finer
    points of literature in French.

    France and Poland, being both Catholic, have had a great
    deal of affinity for each other. During the French Revolution
    thousands of French nobles ran to Poland (and not to Germany)
    to escape the Reign of Terror. Until WW I England was still
    to some extent regarded as a “nation of shopkeepers.” I mean
    how could Victorian England compare with the flowering of La
    Belle Époque in France. England had few if any great composers,
    great painters or great sculptors (or great food!). Great science,
    personified by Darwin or Maxwell, just doesn’t have the same cachet.
    English didn’t really become important until the 1920s and even more
    so 1950s with the rise of the United States and the self-destruction of the
    European powers. I grew up in Europe so this is based on my own direct
    experience

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Anon 2


    Until WW I England was still
    to some extent regarded as a “nation of shopkeepers.” I mean
    how could Victorian England compare with the flowering of La
    Belle Époque in France. England had few if any great composers,
    great painters or great sculptors (or great food!). Great science,
    personified by Darwin or Maxwell, just doesn’t have the same cachet.
    English didn’t really become important until the 1920s and even more
    so 1950s with the rise of the United States and the self-destruction of the
    European powers.
     
    You're simply being silly. British Lit was quite influential during the 19th century (Byron, Scott, Dickens, etc). Savile Row set the standards for male sartorial elegance. Even Anglophobic France had its Anglophiles:

    The Jockey Club was originally organized as the "Society for the Encouragement of the Improvement of Horse Breeding in France," to provide a single authority for horse racing in the nation, beginning at Chantilly in 1834. It swiftly became the center for the most sportifs gentlemen of tout-Paris. At the same time, when aristocrats and men of the haute bourgeoisie still formed the governing class, its Anglo-Gallic membership could not fail to give it some political colour: Napoleon III, who had passed some early exile in England, asserted that he had learned to govern an empire through "his intercourse with the calm, self-possessed men of the English turf".
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jockey-Club_de_Paris

    Replies: @Anon 2

    , @dfordoom
    @Anon 2


    I mean how could Victorian England compare with the flowering of La
    Belle Époque in France. England had few if any great composers, great painters or great sculptors (or great food!).
     
    No great painters in Victorian England? The Pre-Raphaelites not good enough for you? Burne-Jones, who had a considerable influence on French painting?

    Was French music at that period really so much better than Elgar? Was Gustav Holst a nobody? Delius?
  • @Buck Turgidson
    My take on the Ivy League grads I've encountered in my professional career? Overrated. Soft. Weak. Narcissistic. Pathetic. Breezy. Kick up lots of dust and hot air. Insecure. Loud. Self-centered. Shallow. Rude. Arrogant. Unreliable. Sloppy thinkers and poor writers and analysts. Asspains. Credentialed not educated. Have lived their lives in wealthy urban bubbles and rarely have been off concrete. Zero outdoor skills or talents, wouldn't rely on them to pitch a tent properly or start a propane cook stove. Never have rolled up their sleeves and have done real work at a crap job. Never have been on a farm or shoveled manure etc. Spoiled and entitled beyond belief. No real world experience in anything. Brainwashed. No sense of humor. Don't know how to tell a joke. Prickly and intolerant. Would break out in hives if forced to drink beer from a can. Insufferable. Scared of dirt. Lazy. Poor free throw and 3-pt shooters. To be avoided whenever possible. Overwhelmed and bedazzled by their self-perceived importance, and general awesomeness. Got their degree via connections or affirmative action or both. Terrible team players. Bad listeners. Uninteresting. Loud mouthed. Trying way too hard to impress. Lose their cool under pressure. I probably missed a few but those are off the top of my head. Apologies to Ivy Leaguers who aren't like this, I am generalizing. Not all are like this, I've worked with some great ones, but stereotypes exist for a reason. Think obama and his ilk. On reflection, every one of these applies to lightweight obozo the pretender in chief.

    The Ivy League profs I've worked with generally are not this way, at all. They have impressed me as super smart, down to Earth, mega-reliable, super creative, and top flight analysts writers and thinkers. Powerful intellects. Great team players,and great leaders. Respected and respectable. Modest. Great public speakers. Funny! Great sense of humor. Good people and fun to be with. Interesting. Good listeners and world class conversationalists, definitely very cool people to have a single malt or three with. Maybe the smartest guy in the room (they all have been guys, sorry ladies) but would not care or even think about this, and likely to say "I don't think so!" if you asked him. Maybe think Larry Summers. I've worked with folks in engineering sciences and economics, though, and not 'creative' writing or wymyns studies.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Harry Baldwin, @The Last Real Calvinist

    My take on the Ivy League grads I’ve encountered in my professional career? Overrated. Soft. Weak. Narcissistic. Pathetic. Breezy. Kick up lots of dust and hot air. Insecure. Loud. Self-centered. Shallow. Rude. Arrogant. Unreliable. Sloppy thinkers and poor writers and analysts. Asspains. Credentialed not educated. Have lived their lives in wealthy urban bubbles and rarely have been off concrete. Zero outdoor skills or talents, wouldn’t rely on them to pitch a tent properly or start a propane cook stove. Never have rolled up their sleeves and have done real work at a crap job. Never have been on a farm or shoveled manure etc. Spoiled and entitled beyond belief. No real world experience in anything. Brainwashed. No sense of humor. Don’t know how to tell a joke. Prickly and intolerant. Would break out in hives if forced to drink beer from a can. Insufferable. Scared of dirt. Lazy. Poor free throw and 3-pt shooters. To be avoided whenever possible. Overwhelmed and bedazzled by their self-perceived importance, and general awesomeness. Got their degree via connections or affirmative action or both. Terrible team players. Bad listeners. Uninteresting. Loud mouthed. Trying way too hard to impress. Lose their cool under pressure. I probably missed a few but those are off the top of my head.

    But other than that, they’re basically okay, right?

    The Ivy Leaguers I’ve met have varied quite a bit; there’s a couple I became friends with and whom I respect greatly, including intellectually. There were also a few who met some of the criteria you set out above.

    Anyway, that rant is hilarious — ‘poor free throw and 3-pt shooters’, indeed — thanks!

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    ‘poor free throw and 3-pt shooters’, indeed — thanks!
     
    The roughest games of basketball I've ever been a part of took place on an Ivy League campus. We may not have been able to hit the broad side of a barn but we set some awfully mean picks.
  • @Desiderius
    Can anyone here provide a good, short explanation for why Shakespeare should have been on that wall in the first place?

    My sense is that part of the reason such hallmarks of our culture are now vulnerable (in addition, of course, to the malignant forces actually doing the attacking) is that we've fallen out of practice at advocating for them (that culture merits more than mere defense).

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Mr. Anon, @syonredux, @bored identity, @Anonymous, @SFG

    The time is out of joint, and something is rotten in the state of Denmark; there are too many who say that there’s nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so, though of course there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in all their philosophy. And, indeed, they are false liars; one may smile and smile and be a villain, and the Devil hath power to assume a pleasing shape. For, when one speaks of a feminist, the lady doth protest too much, methinks.

    I’d like to get rid of them; one must be cruel only to be kind. For in my heart there is a kind of fighting that will not let me sleep. I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offences at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in.

    And that’s just from Hamlet.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @SFG

    A hit! A palpable hit!

  • @Jack D
    @whorefinder

    Yes, if I had a nickel for every time the boys at Temple Beth-El whined, "You know, just between you and me, William Shakespeare was really Jewish".....

    And I thought that it was only the idiot left that whined about cultural appropriation...

    Anyway, you haven't really seen Hamlet unless you've seen it in the original Yiddish.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @SFG

    And here’s a little of Spock doing it:

  • @Lagertha
    @Buffalo Joe

    I know....I was very angry at a situation I have no control of last night - then my bad moods get triggered by something like this: this drive to attack the icons of culture/art/literature /music of Western Civilization all the time, the last few years. My moods are good for my art work, but agree that I don't need to rant :). But there needs to be push-back soon against doing something like dissing Shakespeare by young people who claim to be university students.

    Replies: @SFG

    The Bard will long outlive his detractors. If nothing else, the theater departments, which are otherwise liberal as heck, absolutely love his stuff because the high-flown language makes up for modern English’s lack of a poetic dialect. You get to put on fancy costumes and use big words, which human beings have enjoyed since we evolved.

    • Replies: @Prof. Woland
    @SFG

    400 years from now, I doubt that Audre Lorde will be known for anything, let alone her shitty poetry.
    In fact, I don't think anybody knows who she is now.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

  • @Mike Sylwester
    @Opinionator


    What do you like about The Tempest?
     
    The play teaches us to make what we can from our brief, mystical existence.

    Prospero, born a duke, has been overthrown and exiled with his child-daughter to an island. There, Prospero develops magical powers and develops a kingdom populated by a few strange creatures. Eventually Prospero manages to marry his daughter to a nice young man who has been shipwrecked to the same island. Finally, Prospero is satisfied by his daughter's happiness, and so he retires from his magical kingship. He sums up his acquired philosophy as follows:


    Our revels now are ended.
    These our actors, as I foretold you,
    Were all spirits and are melted into air,
    Into thin air.

    And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
    The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
    The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
    Ye all which it inherit, shall dissolve.

    And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
    Leave not a rack behind.

    We are such stuff
    As dreams are made on, and our little life
    Is rounded with a sleep.
     

    Life is an illusion, but it includes moments of happiness -- such as helping our children to succeed us.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @SFG

    That’s very well-summarized; thanks.

  • @Mike Sylwester
    @Opinionator


    What do you like about The Tempest?
     
    The play teaches us to make what we can from our brief, mystical existence.

    Prospero, born a duke, has been overthrown and exiled with his child-daughter to an island. There, Prospero develops magical powers and develops a kingdom populated by a few strange creatures. Eventually Prospero manages to marry his daughter to a nice young man who has been shipwrecked to the same island. Finally, Prospero is satisfied by his daughter's happiness, and so he retires from his magical kingship. He sums up his acquired philosophy as follows:


    Our revels now are ended.
    These our actors, as I foretold you,
    Were all spirits and are melted into air,
    Into thin air.

    And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
    The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
    The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
    Ye all which it inherit, shall dissolve.

    And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
    Leave not a rack behind.

    We are such stuff
    As dreams are made on, and our little life
    Is rounded with a sleep.
     

    Life is an illusion, but it includes moments of happiness -- such as helping our children to succeed us.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @SFG

    It’s also his last play, so there’s suspicion it may have been a speech saying goodbye to the theater.

  • @Jim Don Bob
    @Barnard

    Yep. It's hard to believe that these idiots, er, uh, college presidents, did not notice what happened to enrollment, alumni giving, etc. at U Missouri.

    A few high profile student expulsions and faculty firings would nip this in the bud. Start with cuck Jed Esty. What kind of name is that?

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Yep. It’s hard to believe that these idiots, er, uh, college presidents, did not notice what happened to enrollment, alumni giving, etc. at U Missouri.

    Unfortunately, in American higher ed, what’s happened to U Missouri means little (my apologies to any UM grads who might be reading, but this is true of the vast majority of American colleges and universities). Yes, some administrators at similar places might worry about something like this happening on their turf, but the forces pushing them ever leftward are still much stronger.

    No, real change will come about only when someplace that sets the tone takes a hit, and that’s limited to maybe 40-50 names at most — likely even fewer.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    No, real change will come about only when someplace that sets the tone takes a hit, and that’s limited to maybe 40-50 names at most — likely even fewer.
     
    Real change is already happening in local communities around the country. They'll start to feel the pinch as word gets out to average UMC moms.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    No, real change will come about only when someplace that sets the tone takes a hit, and that’s limited to maybe 40-50 names at most — likely even fewer.

     

    Well, God has a sense a humor. Within seconds of posting this comment, I saw a link to this article in the NYT:

    The 'H-Bomb' Fizzles: The Harvard Brand Takes a Hit

    Replies: @Pericles

  • Nobody mentioned the musical Hair (1967) which,
    in fact, contains many Shakespeare allusions, including
    a song that literally quotes “What a piece of work is a man…”
    Of course, the musical was created when Shakespeare was still
    “cool” among young people. The creators, James Rado (born Radomski)
    from a Polish-American family, and Gerome Ragni (from an Italian-
    American family) met at the Catholic University of America, and almost
    immediately started to develop what became their greatest creation.
    Rado (Radomski) patterned the character of Claude Bukowski after himself,
    a pensive romantic. He played Bukowski both on Broadway, and in other
    productions. Stage nudity was quite a shock, even in the late ’60s. Many people
    forget that the movie version has a radically modified plot from the stage version.
    It’s funny that a musical written in the mid-’60s has references to Mick Jagger
    and Roman Polanski, and these people are still around. Apparently, recent decades
    simply haven’t produced many iconic figures

  • @frayedthread
    @Desiderius


    Shakespeare is a not inconsiderable reason why English spread around the globe,
     
    That is moronic. That's like arguing that Shaikh Zubair's authorship of Al-Kitab is why Arabic spread 'round the globe.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    That is moronic. That’s like arguing that Shaikh Zubair’s authorship of Al-Kitab is why Arabic spread ’round the globe.

    Alright, alright, maybe I went a little overboard, though I’m a piker compared to Harold Bloom:

  • @SFG
    @Lagertha

    The Bard will long outlive his detractors. If nothing else, the theater departments, which are otherwise liberal as heck, absolutely love his stuff because the high-flown language makes up for modern English's lack of a poetic dialect. You get to put on fancy costumes and use big words, which human beings have enjoyed since we evolved.

    Replies: @Prof. Woland

    400 years from now, I doubt that Audre Lorde will be known for anything, let alone her shitty poetry.
    In fact, I don’t think anybody knows who she is now.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Prof. Woland

    I had never heard of Audre Lorde before reading this article. But then I am a proud Deplorable, now in my second month of gloating.

  • @SFG
    @Desiderius

    The time is out of joint, and something is rotten in the state of Denmark; there are too many who say that there's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so, though of course there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in all their philosophy. And, indeed, they are false liars; one may smile and smile and be a villain, and the Devil hath power to assume a pleasing shape. For, when one speaks of a feminist, the lady doth protest too much, methinks.

    I'd like to get rid of them; one must be cruel only to be kind. For in my heart there is a kind of fighting that will not let me sleep. I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offences at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in.


    And that's just from Hamlet.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    A hit! A palpable hit!

  • @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Buck Turgidson


    My take on the Ivy League grads I’ve encountered in my professional career? Overrated. Soft. Weak. Narcissistic. Pathetic. Breezy. Kick up lots of dust and hot air. Insecure. Loud. Self-centered. Shallow. Rude. Arrogant. Unreliable. Sloppy thinkers and poor writers and analysts. Asspains. Credentialed not educated. Have lived their lives in wealthy urban bubbles and rarely have been off concrete. Zero outdoor skills or talents, wouldn’t rely on them to pitch a tent properly or start a propane cook stove. Never have rolled up their sleeves and have done real work at a crap job. Never have been on a farm or shoveled manure etc. Spoiled and entitled beyond belief. No real world experience in anything. Brainwashed. No sense of humor. Don’t know how to tell a joke. Prickly and intolerant. Would break out in hives if forced to drink beer from a can. Insufferable. Scared of dirt. Lazy. Poor free throw and 3-pt shooters. To be avoided whenever possible. Overwhelmed and bedazzled by their self-perceived importance, and general awesomeness. Got their degree via connections or affirmative action or both. Terrible team players. Bad listeners. Uninteresting. Loud mouthed. Trying way too hard to impress. Lose their cool under pressure. I probably missed a few but those are off the top of my head.
     
    But other than that, they're basically okay, right?

    The Ivy Leaguers I've met have varied quite a bit; there's a couple I became friends with and whom I respect greatly, including intellectually. There were also a few who met some of the criteria you set out above.

    Anyway, that rant is hilarious -- 'poor free throw and 3-pt shooters', indeed -- thanks!

    Replies: @Desiderius

    ‘poor free throw and 3-pt shooters’, indeed — thanks!

    The roughest games of basketball I’ve ever been a part of took place on an Ivy League campus. We may not have been able to hit the broad side of a barn but we set some awfully mean picks.

  • @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Jim Don Bob


    Yep. It’s hard to believe that these idiots, er, uh, college presidents, did not notice what happened to enrollment, alumni giving, etc. at U Missouri.

     

    Unfortunately, in American higher ed, what's happened to U Missouri means little (my apologies to any UM grads who might be reading, but this is true of the vast majority of American colleges and universities). Yes, some administrators at similar places might worry about something like this happening on their turf, but the forces pushing them ever leftward are still much stronger.

    No, real change will come about only when someplace that sets the tone takes a hit, and that's limited to maybe 40-50 names at most -- likely even fewer.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @The Last Real Calvinist

    No, real change will come about only when someplace that sets the tone takes a hit, and that’s limited to maybe 40-50 names at most — likely even fewer.

    Real change is already happening in local communities around the country. They’ll start to feel the pinch as word gets out to average UMC moms.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Desiderius


    Real change is already happening in local communities around the country. They’ll start to feel the pinch as word gets out to average UMC moms.

     

    Interesting -- would you mind saying a bit more about what you're seeing on the ground? Living outside the USA, it's hard to gauge grass-roots stuff.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  • @syonredux
    @Desiderius


    In other words, you’ve got nothing or can’t be bothered.

    Not good enough.
     
    Compared to Shakespeare, what is good enough? If reading I Henry IV does not convince you of his greatness, how can I?

    Replies: @Desiderius

    That read a little more personal than I had intended.

    If you can get someone to read the play you’ve already done what I was suggesting. Hopefully you’ll take the time to share some strategies for doing that.

  • @Desiderius
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    No, real change will come about only when someplace that sets the tone takes a hit, and that’s limited to maybe 40-50 names at most — likely even fewer.
     
    Real change is already happening in local communities around the country. They'll start to feel the pinch as word gets out to average UMC moms.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Real change is already happening in local communities around the country. They’ll start to feel the pinch as word gets out to average UMC moms.

    Interesting — would you mind saying a bit more about what you’re seeing on the ground? Living outside the USA, it’s hard to gauge grass-roots stuff.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    Interesting — would you mind saying a bit more about what you’re seeing on the ground?
     
    I see it all around me, but it can also be seen by what's not there in our elite (sic) institutions, particularity the Ivy League.

    They haven't been getting the best men for a good long while, and even the babe drain shows signs of slowing. As usual, minorities and foreigners are late to the party, so they're still sending their best and their brightest expecting a world-class education only to find the likes of Prof. Etsy, who , from the looks of him and his reaction to this little kerfluffle is about a 2 on the Harf-Mattis scale..

    No wonder they're pissed.

    You don't wind up with a turd in your punchbowl because someone prefers the taste of turd to punch; it's there to send a message. Make no mistake - Audre Lorde is a turd. The message is that they're not getting the education they were promised. And they're not.

    Unearned status is a poor substitute for earned.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

  • A couple of quick additional notes (I’m afraid I’m soon going to see that Unz software message telling me I’m posting too quickly):

    First, this has been a very enjoyable thread.

    Second, if anyone’s interested in getting to know the Bard better in 2017, there’s a plan from First Things for reading his collected works in a year: LINK

  • @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Jim Don Bob


    Yep. It’s hard to believe that these idiots, er, uh, college presidents, did not notice what happened to enrollment, alumni giving, etc. at U Missouri.

     

    Unfortunately, in American higher ed, what's happened to U Missouri means little (my apologies to any UM grads who might be reading, but this is true of the vast majority of American colleges and universities). Yes, some administrators at similar places might worry about something like this happening on their turf, but the forces pushing them ever leftward are still much stronger.

    No, real change will come about only when someplace that sets the tone takes a hit, and that's limited to maybe 40-50 names at most -- likely even fewer.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @The Last Real Calvinist

    No, real change will come about only when someplace that sets the tone takes a hit, and that’s limited to maybe 40-50 names at most — likely even fewer.

    Well, God has a sense a humor. Within seconds of posting this comment, I saw a link to this article in the NYT:

    The ‘H-Bomb’ Fizzles: The Harvard Brand Takes a Hit

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    I chortled at this:



    (A spokeswoman for Mr. Kushner denied the allegation, noting that Mr. Kushner graduated with honors; Mr. Golden observed that, in a climate of rampant grade inflation, so did about 90 percent of Mr. Kushner’s graduating class of 2003.)

     

  • Usually I chuckle at these little episodes Steve always shares. But for whatever reason this particular one I find very triggering. That this would happen at one of our supposedly best schools, that these students would even be there in the first place, that not only it would happen, but that the white male department chair would decline to immediately restore the Bard to his rightful position and would instead indulge the perpetrators. Gah! It’s too much! I have been re-reading a bit more of the classics recently, so maybe that has made me more sensitive.

  • Why don’t you include more black literature in the curriculum?

    Because this is a rare instance where you, in fact, dindu nuffin.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @Miro23

    Stanford did that for awhile with anthropology: Anthropological Sciences (e.g., Cavalli-Sforza's gene people) vs. Cultural Anthropology. Condi Rice brokered a deal to get them back together.

    Replies: @CJ

    Duke University has two departments of anthropology. Evolutionary Anthropology is an actual science-oriented program administered under the purview of the medical school. Cultural Anthropology (“Cul Anth”) is, to borrow from Vox Day, a fully-converged social justice warrior operation.

    • Replies: @black sea
    @CJ

    Duke has both a literature program and an English department, due, I believe, to a series of rifts which occured when Stanley Fish was the chair of the English department. Not sure who initiated the split, but I've heard it was acrimonious.

    , @guest
    @CJ

    Does the term "cul anth" actually pass human lips, or is it something people merely write? Or is it a joke? Because it's about the ugliest thing I've ever heard.

  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Prof. Woland
    @Desiderius

    Our comedians and actors have failed us as well so perhaps this attack on Shakespeare is fitting. In a healthy non-fearful society they would be the first line of defense against such silly assertions. Public chiding and gentle humiliations should be enough to discourage this type of stupidity and give heart to the school administrators to prevent themselves from being pissed all over by their students. But like some autoimmune dysfunction, our national joke and story tellers are the most heavily infected with the disorder to the point that they would rather not be funny than say something that puts them at risk. They are the last one's to get the joke.

    Replies: @anon

    Our comedians and actors have failed us as well so perhaps this attack on Shakespeare is fitting.

    Funny you should mention that. I agree with Scorsese. I used to love movies. Ain’t been to one in a long time.

    One part of that is now I see outspoken actor/actressess I’ve grown to despise from seeing them going off on whatever news or talk show, and find it impossible to watch a movie with them in it. I can’t get the stupid things they say in real life out of my head.

    I truly believe they don’t get how much they’re despised by a significant number of americans. Even after this election, they just keep going on. If I were an actor, whether I was on the left or right, I’d review my job description, and I would be shutting the fuck up.

    Sooner or later, their rhetoric will catch up with them, and shorten their careers. In the meantime, it’s fucking up the movie experience, as well as the general entertainment experience for me. Even Neil Young is pissing me off, and I loved the guy! David Crosby has totally fucked CSNY for me for eternity.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/martin-scorsese-silence-new-films-disposable-over-saturation-press-conference-a7471996.html

  • Anonymous [AKA "Jajaja"] says:
    @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    I think it was partially a revolt against French cultural domination. France had such cultural sway in Europe that everyone was bowing to them, but the emergence of 19th Century nationalism, the horrors of the French revolution, and the anger/fear of Napoleon made everyone start rejecting French culture.

    The Russian aristocracy, as Tolstoy demonstrated in War and Peace, spoke French as their language. The German nation was just emerging as a cohesive whole after being a confederation for centuries, and having had to deal with French (and Italian) hegemony in the arts. Even the Ottomon Empire, declining as it was, had close cultural ties with the French. Spain, Portugal, and the Dutch had dropped off the map culturally, so England became a good place to reach to for a breath of cultural fresh air.

    And the British success in the 18th and 19th Centuries at conquering the world---but of course, avoiding conquering Europe---made them admirable to many Europeans wanting to emulate them. And the Brits made it a mission to popularize their culture.

    And then Napoleon came storming through Europe and was the terror of the land. After that, the popularity of French culture declined in hatred of his conquering.

    This is similar to how up until WW2, German culture was held in high regard by most of the west. The German film industry was a true rival to Hollywood. German industriousness, inventions, and ability were prized as the greatest flowering of the time. Freud and Nietsche were the intellectual vanguard. No less than Mark Twain was trying to learn German, and American academics developed their academic theories in response to German ones (Oliver Wendell Holmes, for example, wrote law review articles in response to German academic theories about the law). German academies were considered the place to go for intellectuals---this is why Hollywood movies stereotyped scientists with German accents.

    The WW2 happened, and Hitler's threat pretty much soured everyone on German culture.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Anonymous

    The German film industry was a true rival to Hollywood.

    In popular films? I don’t mean to contradict, just asking.

    The only popular German film I’m familiar with is their Titanic movie. The actors seemed a little stiff. I don’t recall any light-hearted German comedies or musicals even before WWII. If you have any links, please let me know. Just surprised to read the German’s were giving us a run for our money in movies.

    Check out Nazi Titanic below.

    Before you do, check out this short vid on the film’s history. It’s kind of foul:

    History channel’s version is longer:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrnRTL4bYsY&feature=youtu.be&list=PL8F082E27C88C555C

    And here’s the movie, in German, with english captions. As I said, the actors are a little stiff:

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Anonymous

    The German Titanic movie is not very good although footage from it was used in later Titanic movies. German cinema, including such things as Nosferatu, Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Metropolis, Blue Angel, Kameradschaft, and "M" was absolutely top shelf in the pre-Hitler period. Metropolis and "M" were both made by Fritz Lang who later came to the US and made film noir. There's a lot there if you dig around. From the '60's, I've known a number of people who swear by Fassbender and Werner Herzog. And Roland Emmerich is also German, last time I checked.

    Replies: @Kylie, @Miro23, @neon2

    , @dfordoom
    @Anonymous


    The only popular German film I’m familiar with is their Titanic movie.
     
    The 1943 Münchhausen is excellent and great fun. Much better than Terry Gilliam's later version.
  • @CJ
    @Steve Sailer

    Duke University has two departments of anthropology. Evolutionary Anthropology is an actual science-oriented program administered under the purview of the medical school. Cultural Anthropology ("Cul Anth") is, to borrow from Vox Day, a fully-converged social justice warrior operation.

    Replies: @black sea, @guest

    Duke has both a literature program and an English department, due, I believe, to a series of rifts which occured when Stanley Fish was the chair of the English department. Not sure who initiated the split, but I’ve heard it was acrimonious.

  • Affirmative Action Lies Matter

  • @guest
    @Steve Sailer

    I once heard Vince McMahon argue that his art was the Shakespeare of our day because Shakespeare was also looked down upon. Of course, that's at best half an argument.

    Don't get carried away with yourself. Barely anyone bothers relistening to episodes of Howard Stern, let alone reads transcripts of them. It would be better to pick, I don't know, Harry Potter as eventually being considered High Art.

    Ifsoever Stern is placed alongside Shakespeare, it would mean our civilization had already collapsed. Shakespeare's world had of course ceased to be by the time his reputation was inflated all out of proportion to his contemporaries in the last couple of centuries. But there was and is still something of Western Civilization amongst us.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Desiderius

    Vince McMahon’s stuff is awfully entertaining.

    Maybe in the future the WWE will be the basis of our culture and scholars will debate Vince McMahon’s status. They will watch and rewatch the video of Vince being punched in the face by the President, looking for subtle clues.

    • Replies: @guest
    @Steve Sailer

    I find McMahon personally entertaining. The way his facial expressions change, and how he can fall over a chair, for instance. But I can't watch more than 30 seconds of professional wrestling in a row.

    , @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    Vince McMahon is the last vaudvillian/circus man. His guys a traveling, nationwide show 4-5 times a week, travelling every day, doing big stunts in colorful costumes for an audience that normally doesn't leave the confines of home.

    He's P.T. Barnum and B.F. Keith rolled into one, and updated for modern times.

  • @res
    @AKAHorace

    What other writers have contributions on the order of:
    http://shakespeare-online.com/biography/wordsinvented.html
    http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/phrases-sayings-shakespeare.html

    As Mr. Anon noted in his wonderful summary, the King James Bible is a worthy contender:
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2011/feb/18/phrases-king-james-bible
    but coined fewer new words (if you only follow one link here make it this one):
    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-12205084
    a good summary from that article:


    He also found that the Bible coined few new words. Shakespeare by comparison, introduced about 100 phrases into our idiom, to the Bible's 257, but something like 1,000 new words. The English Bible introduced only 40 or so, including "battering ram" and "backsliding".

    "This reflects their different jobs," says Crystal. "The whole point of being a dramatist is to be original in your language. The Bible translators, in contrast, were under strict instructions not to be innovative but to look backwards to what earlier translators had done." Earlier translators whose only concern was to translate the Bible literally.
     
    Also worth noting:

    "Only 18 (res: of the 257 phrases) of that total were unique to the King James Bible. It didn't originate these usages, it acted as a kind of conduit through which they became popular. Tyndale was the number one influence."
     
    P.S. You make a good point about English changing quickly at the time, but it's hard to be sure about the direction of causality and I think a good case can be made for Shakespeare and the King James Bible solidifying the English language.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Dieter Kief

    I’ve had a quick look at the phrases-article on wikpedia and did check one phrase, for which they claim a shakesperen origin: To find out, that the claim is wrong.

    I know from experience, that such lists are often times just not reliable.

    My example: In the mind’s eye

    One’s visual memory or imagination.

    Origin

    The concept of us having an ‘eye in our mind’ is ancient and dates back to at least the 14th century, when Chaucer used it in The Man of Law’s Tale, circa 1390:

    “It were with thilke eyen of his mynde, With whiche men seen, after that they been blynde.”

    The first actual mention of mind’s eye comes in 1577 when Hubert Languet used it in a letter. This was subsequently printed in The Correspondence of Sir Philip Sidney and Hubert Languet, 1845:

    “What will not these golden mountains effect … which I dare say stand before your mind’s eye day and night?”

    Cobbe family portrait of William ShakespeareThe term probably became known through the work of Shakespeare. He uses it in the best-known of all plays – Hamlet, 1602, in a scene where Hamlet is recalling his father:

    HAMLET:
    Thrift, thrift, Horatio! the funeral baked meats
    Did coldly furnish forth the marriage tables.
    Would I had met my dearest foe in heaven
    Or ever I had seen that day, Horatio!
    My father! – methinks I see my father.

    HORATIO:
    Where, my lord?

    HAMLET:
    In my mind’s eye, Horatio.

    Conclusion: Shakespeare is definitely better than some of his admirers.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Dieter Kief

    I have a friend who consistently over the years has insisted that "Oh, what a tangled web we weave / when first we practice to deceive" was WS, no matter how many times I tell him it was Sir Walter Scott.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  • @I, Libertine
    @keypusher

    Oh, God , indeed.

    What examples do you have of what the guy from Stratford wrote? Not the plays or poems; don't assume the truth of your hypothesis to prove your hypothesis. None of them are in his hand. What else? All the letters he wrote back and forth, since he split time between London and Stratford? Funny how none of them have survived, isn't it?

    Here is for a few months, in London creating works of art that are fated to survive for centuries. Then there he is, back in Stratford after a two day ride, hoarding grain and suing people over petty debts. Then back in London. Then back to Stratford. Sometimes in Stratford while he's supposed to be in London. Clark Kent and Superman. Just like any of the world's greatest artists. But leaving no paper trail.

    We say again: there is no direct or circumstantial evidence, no documents created during his lifetime, associating the Stratford man with the "Shakespeare" who wrote the plays and poems. Nothing until the First Folio: hearsay created seven years after the Stratford man's death (which oddly went unnoticed at the time). Yes, of course, there's mention of "Shakespeare" as an author before 1616, and documents establishing the existence of the Stratford guy. But none associating the two.

    One list of people paid for the performance of a Shakespeare play; two cast lists for plays written by others; that's as close as Stratfordians have come to associating "Shagspere" with our genius. That's some evidence of his involvement with the London stage, as a financier and actor. That's no evidence of authorship, let alone of the talent of an immortal.

    Oxfraud? Read that, and read the many authorities that rebut it. And they rebut it well. Make up your own mind.

    But what do I know? I'm just a snob, like all anti-Stratfordians, right?

    Replies: @keypusher

    But what do I know? I’m just a snob, like all anti-Stratfordians, right?

    Looney was a snob, and Oxfordianism is infected with snobbery at its root, but not all anti-Stratfordians are snobs. You’re all just wrong, for lots of different reasons; why you came to the belief that Oxford was Shakespeare doesn’t interest me particularly.

    You clearly haven’t spent any time at Oxfraud yourself, or you wouldn’t trot out all those tired Oxford 101 tropes about Shakespeare. (In the second return from Parnassus play, written when Shakespeare was probably at his most famous during his own lifetime, when “Kempe” of the Lord Chamberlain’s Men, Shakespeare of Stratford’s company, points out that “our fellow Shakespeare” didn’t go to university but is a better playwright than anyone who did, who do you think he’s talking about?) But I didn’t even go into that. I pointed out that Oxford was (i) not very bright (ii) not very learned. Whenever you say “the real Shakespeare was so learned” you condemn your own candidate. I didn’t even discuss through his poetry, which ranges from atrocious to merely mediocre.

    Rather than Shakespeare, spend some time on de Vere. The real one, not the Oxfordian fantasy. Read Monstrous Adversary, or just spend some time at Nelson’s website (I gave you some links). Like just about everyone in Elizabethan England who knew the man, he has no use for Oxford, but that doesn’t matter. He’s gathered all Oxford’s surviving work for you, so you can read it yourself.

    Once you’ve been cured of Oxfordianism, you can look at any other candidates that strike your fancy. Wherever you go, you’ll come back to the same place: there is evidence for Shakespeare of Stratford; there is no evidence for anyone else.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @keypusher

    A big difference between Shakespeare's time and Stoppard's time is that there was very little journalism in Shakespeare's time. Nobody doubts that Stoppard wrote Stoppard's plays because there have been countless Stoppard profiles and interviews published in newspapers and magazines over the years. Even before the Internet, you could look these up in libraries. I own a book of interviews with Stoppard I bought around 1990.

    But there wasn't much journalism at all in Shakespeare's times. The first newspapers in English appear to have been started a few years after Shakespeare's death.

    There were books in Shakespeare's times and pamphlets. For example, Hamlet was printed in a bad version in 1603 and a better one in 1604 and in the First Folio in 1623.

    But what didn't exist yet was the Celebrity Profile. Nobody back then had a job interviewing the leading lights of London's vibrant pop culture scene. Also, there were no Theater Reviews. (In contrast, Stoppard did both as a young journalist in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Stoppard's daily journalism from over half a century ago isn't easily available, but you could look it up on microfilm in English libraries if you really wanted to.)

    What did exist were letters. No doubt people wrote letters mentioning Shakespeare, but, unfortunately, not many survive. Commenter Luke Lea is a direct descendant of Shakespeare's sister, for example, and I'm sure he'd love to have inherited letters to his ancestress from her illustrious brother, but he didn't. Somebody along the line threw them out or reused the paper to send other letters to other people or they burned up in a fire or got ruined in a flood or whatever.

  • @dfordoom
    @I, Libertine


    Shakespeare studied law, alright.
     
    There's his famous line, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." That sounds to me like the kind of line that would really appeal to a lawyer. They tend to be amused by the fact that most people hate them. I think it strengthens the assertion that he studied law.

    Replies: @keypusher

    Actually, that was probably written by Marlowe, much as I love the Jack Cade scenes. See

  • @I, Libertine
    @whorefinder

    You seem like a bright guy, but my goodness! Frank Abagnale as an explanation for Shaksper's intimate knowledge of: law, falconry, sailing, the details of Italian geography, romance languages (don't believe that "small Latin and less Greek" red herring from Jonson; Shakespeare wrote adaptions of stories not yet translated into English), music, ancient history, equestrian sports, etc etc. To say nothing of an intimate acquaintance with the Earl of Southampton.

    Yes, he could have.

    He


    must have
     
    !

    After all, since we know a prior that Shakspere was Shakespeare, it is certain that he


    did
     
    . Somehow.

    Well, DeVere did. Not just somehow. He did.

    I think somebody on this thread said DeVere didn't study law intensely. Do your own research, folks.

    During edit time: I don't know the reason for the bad formatting. I blame Steve.

    Replies: @keypusher, @whorefinder

    Elizabethan and Jacobean playwrights pretty much all wrote about, or made use of imagery from, Italy, the law, falconry, and so on, whether they were noble or not. “[A]n a man have not skill in hawking and hunting languages now-a-days, I’ll never give a rush for him. They are more studied than the Greek or the Latin.” From Every Man in his Humour.) As for “intimate knowledge of Italian geography” — Shakespeare makes one blunder after another. For one example of many, see:

    http://stromata.tripod.com/id317_october_10_2002.htm

    A more interesting question is how a nobleman is supposed to have come by the knowledge of the wool business, leather making, bowling, bird-liming, and gardening copiously on display in the canon. Or how a man credited with introducing perfumed gloves into England (probably Oxford’s greatest genuine accomplishment) came to write the first 30 or so lines of Act 2 of Henry IV Part i.

  • @Karl
    @Steve Sailer

    > His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn’t terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he’d study law to be safe in case the writing didn’t work out


    I vaguely remember reading that (saxophonist) Kenny G's father, made him complete his degree in accounting before allowing him to go work paid gigs for a living.


    PS: concur on the opens-in-mobile-by-default problem.

    Replies: @Authenticjazzman, @Authenticjazzman, @Jim Don Bob, @Authenticjazzman

    The music world would be better off if he, Kenny G, had stuck to accounting.

    Authenticjazzman, “Mensa” society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

  • @Karl
    @Steve Sailer

    > His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn’t terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he’d study law to be safe in case the writing didn’t work out


    I vaguely remember reading that (saxophonist) Kenny G's father, made him complete his degree in accounting before allowing him to go work paid gigs for a living.


    PS: concur on the opens-in-mobile-by-default problem.

    Replies: @Authenticjazzman, @Authenticjazzman, @Jim Don Bob, @Authenticjazzman

    Canceled due to unintended duplication.

  • @neutral
    There is a solution to this, simply argue for this theory:
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/was-william-shakespeare-a-jewish-woman-in-disguise-1.246717

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Pericles

    I’ll give them the next idea for free: “Is Lebron James Secretly Jewish?” No, strike that, no reader of Haaretz cares about sports. Their sports section is probably about the intricacies of trading american pro teams.

    Here’s a better one, “Was Alexander Hamilton Actually a Black Jew?”

  • @Anonymous
    @George

    Apparently, Clarkson punched an Irish BBC staffer in the face and called him an opprobious name because his dinner, after a hard day's shooting, was late.

    Replies: @Pericles

    I’m sure the Irish are mortified that the staffer didn’t ground and pound old Clarkson, Trayvon-like, until pulled away by the other two. Clarkson then would have done the next shoot with a nice, bold shiner, and ratings would have skyrocketed.

  • @The Last Real Calvinist
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    No, real change will come about only when someplace that sets the tone takes a hit, and that’s limited to maybe 40-50 names at most — likely even fewer.

     

    Well, God has a sense a humor. Within seconds of posting this comment, I saw a link to this article in the NYT:

    The 'H-Bomb' Fizzles: The Harvard Brand Takes a Hit

    Replies: @Pericles

    I chortled at this:

    (A spokeswoman for Mr. Kushner denied the allegation, noting that Mr. Kushner graduated with honors; Mr. Golden observed that, in a climate of rampant grade inflation, so did about 90 percent of Mr. Kushner’s graduating class of 2003.)

  • @keypusher
    @SPMoore8

    I think Shakespeare tends to be over-rated relative to his contemporaries (which include Marlowe, Bacon, and many others)

    There were a lot of very good playwrights then, and some of them wrote better plays than some of Shakespeare's, which nevertheless get produced because -- Shakespeare. On the other hand, if it wasn't for WS, maybe Jonson and Webster and B&F would never get produced at all. There are some Restoration and 18th century comedies that I loved reading but I never expect to see.

    Marlowe was great, and he would have been much greater if he hadn't gotten murdered when he was 29. The Jew of Malta is a rattling good read, and I think it would be terrific on stage (the title is a bit of a barrier -- Shakespeare was lucky that he named his comparable play for a different character, perhaps because he didn't want it to sound too much like Marlowe's play). That said, I think The Merchant of Venice is a much profounder work, and Shylock is a much more complex and interesting character than the comic-book supervillain Barabbas. But again, Shakespeare was in his early-mid 30s when he wrote it, and we'll never know what Marlowe would have been doing at that age.

    I don't know what it means to say that Shakespeare is overrated compared to Bacon. Great imaginative literature tends to last longer than scientific or political work. We still read the Greek poets, but hardly anyone reads Galen or Euclid.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @guest

    I was actually trying to make a case *for* Shakespeare for Desiderius, but to be honest I think WS can be criticized and I think his contemporaries don’t get the credit they deserve.

    Partly it’s a matter of taste, but I prefer prose to drama. But in drama, virtually all of the half dozen Marlowe plays that we know are definitely of “Shakespearean” quality. And there are many others, including anonymous plays, which is why it is not unusual for Shakespeare societies to put on non-Shakespeare plays like Dekker’s “Shoemaker’s Holiday” or Marlowe’s “Doctor Faustus.” TS Eliot was a fan of some of Chapman’s plays. Fact is, there’s a number of excellent plays of the period that tend to be obscured by Shakespeare’s demigod status, although even today it is said that Shakespeare “had a hand” in some of them, like Edward III, or Arden of Faversham, or what have you. But if that is true then it also means that WS collaborated with other playwrights like Kyd, Lodge, and so on, which further implies they collaborated with him.

    Another part of the issue is that there has long been the idea that WS collaborated with others in the Folio plays, including Greene, Marlowe, etc. in the Henry VI plays, Peele in Titus, Wilkins in Pericles, and many others. I note that nowadays that Middleton is argued as having input in several later WS plays. I think play authorship in those days was not as clearcut as we like to think.

    WS left no prose, but Philip Sidney, Nashe, Lodge, Dekker also wrote extremely well in the idiom of late Elizabeth and early James that we associate with WS exclusively, because of his fame. Guys like Drayton, Daniel, Lodge, and Sidney, in their poetry and sonnet cycles were also very good. This is also the period where Florio translated Montaigne, North translated Plutarch, Lodge Seneca, and many others. Not to mention Holinshed’s Chronicle, which turns up more or less intact in many history plays of the era, including WS.

    I agree that Oxford probably had nothing to do with any of the plays of the period. He might have had something to do with poetry. However, he was a big patron of the arts and helped support a lot of WS writing contemporaries, he should be respected for that, not mocked.

    As for Bacon, I think his Essays and other writings are great stuff, but again I suppose it’s a matte r of taste. Just trying to be fair in my own estimation of the era.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @SPMoore8


    but to be honest I think WS can be criticized and I think his contemporaries don’t get the credit they deserve
     
    Sure, but his name (and thus image) also serves as a synecdoche for his entire literary milieu, which as you note ranks among the greatest ever to arise in any language, including of course the KJV which would now be otherwise verboten.

    As for Bacon, I think his Essays and other writings are great stuff, but again I suppose it’s a matte r of taste. Just trying to be fair in my own estimation of the era.
     
    Could not agree more strongly. For my money, there is no better entree to a love of great literature than the essays of Montaigne and Bacon, nor indeed simply as a guide to a well-lived, manly life.
    , @guest
    @SPMoore8

    There are dramas in prose. A lot of Shakespeare is in prose, in fact. Check out Falstaff, for instance.

    , @syonredux
    @SPMoore8


    WS left no prose
     
    Not entirely true, I'm afraid. Large chunks of the plays are written in prose. For example, my favorite passage from I Henry IV:

    No, I'll be sworn; I make as good use of it as many
    a man doth of a Death's-head or a memento mori: I
    never see thy face but I think upon hell-fire and
    Dives that lived in purple; for there he is in his
    robes, burning, burning. If thou wert any way
    given to virtue, I would swear by thy face; my oath
    should be 'By this fire, that's God's angel:' but
    thou art altogether given over; and wert indeed, but
    for the light in thy face, the son of utter
    darkness. When thou rannest up Gadshill in the
    night to catch my horse, if I did not think thou
    hadst been an ignis fatuus or a ball of wildfire,
    there's no purchase in money. O, thou art a
    perpetual triumph, an everlasting bonfire-light!
    Thou hast saved me a thousand marks in links and
    torches, walking with thee in the night betwixt
    tavern and tavern: but the sack that thou hast
    drunk me would have bought me lights as good cheap
    at the dearest chandler's in Europe. I have
    maintained that salamander of yours with fire any
    time this two and thirty years; God reward me for
    it!
     

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    , @Desiderius
    @SPMoore8

    "Prosperity is the blessing of the Old Testament; adversity is the blessing of the New; which carrieth the greater benediction, and the clearer revelation of God’s favor. Yet even in the Old Testament, if you listen to David’s harp, you shall hear as many hearse-like airs as carols; and the pencil of the Holy Ghost hath labored more in describing the afflictions of Job, than the felicities of Solomon. Prosperity is not without many fears and distastes; and adversity is not without comforts and hopes. We see in needle-works and embroideries, it is more pleasing to have a lively work, upon a sad and solemn ground, than to have a dark and melancholy work, upon a lightsome ground: judge therefore of the pleasure of the heart, by the pleasure of the eye. Certainly virtue is like precious odors, most fragrant when they are incensed, or crushed: for prosperity doth best discover vice, but adversity doth best discover virtue."

    Bacon, Of Adversity

    Replies: @SPMoore8

  • @Dieter Kief
    @res

    I've had a quick look at the phrases-article on wikpedia and did check one phrase, for which they claim a shakesperen origin: To find out, that the claim is wrong.

    I know from experience, that such lists are often times just not reliable.

    My example: In the mind's eye

    One's visual memory or imagination.

    Origin

    The concept of us having an 'eye in our mind' is ancient and dates back to at least the 14th century, when Chaucer used it in The Man of Law's Tale, circa 1390:

    "It were with thilke eyen of his mynde, With whiche men seen, after that they been blynde."

    The first actual mention of mind's eye comes in 1577 when Hubert Languet used it in a letter. This was subsequently printed in The Correspondence of Sir Philip Sidney and Hubert Languet, 1845:

    "What will not these golden mountains effect ... which I dare say stand before your mind's eye day and night?"

    Cobbe family portrait of William ShakespeareThe term probably became known through the work of Shakespeare. He uses it in the best-known of all plays - Hamlet, 1602, in a scene where Hamlet is recalling his father:

    HAMLET:
    Thrift, thrift, Horatio! the funeral baked meats
    Did coldly furnish forth the marriage tables.
    Would I had met my dearest foe in heaven
    Or ever I had seen that day, Horatio!
    My father! - methinks I see my father.

    HORATIO:
    Where, my lord?

    HAMLET:
    In my mind's eye, Horatio.

    Conclusion: Shakespeare is definitely better than some of his admirers.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    I have a friend who consistently over the years has insisted that “Oh, what a tangled web we weave / when first we practice to deceive” was WS, no matter how many times I tell him it was Sir Walter Scott.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @SPMoore8

    Mundus vult decipi - -

    Apart from that - your Walter Scott quote, which I didn't know, is beautiful - - and reminds me of Dylan's "Tangled Up in Blue".

    - "all the people he used to (ehem) quote, they're an illusion to him now" - fits in quite nicely.


    The expression "in the mind's eye" is beautiful too...and it strikes me as almost religious, to try to be able follow the traces of beauty back. - As in the phrase: Back to - - god - in Rilke's poem The Alchemist...).

    (Much of literary science is in fact some kind of worldly cult-like act. But "psychologically speaking" (Patricia Barber, I Could eat Your Words on Verse) it's more fun to encounter uncertainties - and suprises along the way, then coming back to the same old references time & time again.
    But this might depend. - A lot of this stuff depends on the spirit, in which it is done - and on the Alchemist in wordland too, smiling off quite odd.

  • @guest
    @Steve Sailer

    I once heard Vince McMahon argue that his art was the Shakespeare of our day because Shakespeare was also looked down upon. Of course, that's at best half an argument.

    Don't get carried away with yourself. Barely anyone bothers relistening to episodes of Howard Stern, let alone reads transcripts of them. It would be better to pick, I don't know, Harry Potter as eventually being considered High Art.

    Ifsoever Stern is placed alongside Shakespeare, it would mean our civilization had already collapsed. Shakespeare's world had of course ceased to be by the time his reputation was inflated all out of proportion to his contemporaries in the last couple of centuries. But there was and is still something of Western Civilization amongst us.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Desiderius

    Don’t get carried away with yourself. Barely anyone bothers relistening to episodes of Howard Stern, let alone reads transcripts of them. It would be better to pick, I don’t know, Harry Potter as eventually being considered High Art.

    It’s no wonder that he’s blind on this question, given that our best analogue to Shakespeare in his day may well be Sailer himself.

  • @Anonymous
    @whorefinder


    The German film industry was a true rival to Hollywood.
     
    In popular films? I don't mean to contradict, just asking.

    The only popular German film I'm familiar with is their Titanic movie. The actors seemed a little stiff. I don't recall any light-hearted German comedies or musicals even before WWII. If you have any links, please let me know. Just surprised to read the German's were giving us a run for our money in movies.

    Check out Nazi Titanic below.

    Before you do, check out this short vid on the film's history. It's kind of foul:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7_GAM549EQ

    History channel's version is longer:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrnRTL4bYsY&feature=youtu.be&list=PL8F082E27C88C555C

    And here's the movie, in German, with english captions. As I said, the actors are a little stiff:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFamcBHdwA

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @dfordoom

    The German Titanic movie is not very good although footage from it was used in later Titanic movies. German cinema, including such things as Nosferatu, Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Metropolis, Blue Angel, Kameradschaft, and “M” was absolutely top shelf in the pre-Hitler period. Metropolis and “M” were both made by Fritz Lang who later came to the US and made film noir. There’s a lot there if you dig around. From the ’60’s, I’ve known a number of people who swear by Fassbender and Werner Herzog. And Roland Emmerich is also German, last time I checked.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    @SPMoore8

    German cinema was hugely influenced by Max Reinhardt, the brilliant Austrian theatre and film director. Many Germans working in film emigrated to Hollywood, spreading his influence there. Reinhardt influenced Murnau, for example, who in turn influenced John Ford.

    Reinhardt directed Hollywood's 1935 version of A Midsummer Night's Dream, which is still available. It's dazzling.

    , @Miro23
    @SPMoore8

    I can recommend Fritz Lang's "Dr Mabuse the Gambler". 4 1/2 hours (!) Some strong similarities to the present U.S.

    Product Description (from Amazon)


    Dr. Mabuse - criminal genius, psychologist, hypnotist, counterfeiter, card shark, master of disguise, thief of state secrets and ruler of a sinister empire founded on selfishness, chicanery and murder--gained his first screen incarnation in this monumental film by Fritz Lang, one of cinema's greatest directors. Made in 1922 and subtitled "A Picture of Our Time," "Dr. Mabuse, The Gambler" is indeed a snapshot of a historical moment when Germany was likened to Sodom and Gomorrah.
     
    https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Mabuse-Gambler-Rudolf-Klein-Rogge/dp/B000FS9FLW/ref=sr_1_2?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1481744673&sr=1-2&keywords=dr+mabuse+dvd

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @neon2
    @SPMoore8

    The 1933-1945 films are often extremely good. Try Münchhausen (1943) or Opfergang (1944) or Kolberg (1945). These are highlights, but there are lots of enjoyable musicals and fantasy films to choose from, none of them straightforward propaganda.
    I'll admit though that they had nobody with the genius of an Eisenstein.

    Replies: @syonredux

  • @SPMoore8
    @keypusher

    I was actually trying to make a case *for* Shakespeare for Desiderius, but to be honest I think WS can be criticized and I think his contemporaries don't get the credit they deserve.

    Partly it's a matter of taste, but I prefer prose to drama. But in drama, virtually all of the half dozen Marlowe plays that we know are definitely of "Shakespearean" quality. And there are many others, including anonymous plays, which is why it is not unusual for Shakespeare societies to put on non-Shakespeare plays like Dekker's "Shoemaker's Holiday" or Marlowe's "Doctor Faustus." TS Eliot was a fan of some of Chapman's plays. Fact is, there's a number of excellent plays of the period that tend to be obscured by Shakespeare's demigod status, although even today it is said that Shakespeare "had a hand" in some of them, like Edward III, or Arden of Faversham, or what have you. But if that is true then it also means that WS collaborated with other playwrights like Kyd, Lodge, and so on, which further implies they collaborated with him.

    Another part of the issue is that there has long been the idea that WS collaborated with others in the Folio plays, including Greene, Marlowe, etc. in the Henry VI plays, Peele in Titus, Wilkins in Pericles, and many others. I note that nowadays that Middleton is argued as having input in several later WS plays. I think play authorship in those days was not as clearcut as we like to think.

    WS left no prose, but Philip Sidney, Nashe, Lodge, Dekker also wrote extremely well in the idiom of late Elizabeth and early James that we associate with WS exclusively, because of his fame. Guys like Drayton, Daniel, Lodge, and Sidney, in their poetry and sonnet cycles were also very good. This is also the period where Florio translated Montaigne, North translated Plutarch, Lodge Seneca, and many others. Not to mention Holinshed's Chronicle, which turns up more or less intact in many history plays of the era, including WS.

    I agree that Oxford probably had nothing to do with any of the plays of the period. He might have had something to do with poetry. However, he was a big patron of the arts and helped support a lot of WS writing contemporaries, he should be respected for that, not mocked.

    As for Bacon, I think his Essays and other writings are great stuff, but again I suppose it's a matte r of taste. Just trying to be fair in my own estimation of the era.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @guest, @syonredux, @Desiderius

    but to be honest I think WS can be criticized and I think his contemporaries don’t get the credit they deserve

    Sure, but his name (and thus image) also serves as a synecdoche for his entire literary milieu, which as you note ranks among the greatest ever to arise in any language, including of course the KJV which would now be otherwise verboten.

    As for Bacon, I think his Essays and other writings are great stuff, but again I suppose it’s a matte r of taste. Just trying to be fair in my own estimation of the era.

    Could not agree more strongly. For my money, there is no better entree to a love of great literature than the essays of Montaigne and Bacon, nor indeed simply as a guide to a well-lived, manly life.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
  • @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/808476572529360897

    Trump derangement syndrome in action.

    Replies: @Amasius, @fish, @guest, @Hubbub

    Cry Havoc! The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming…

    • Replies: @Ivy
    @Hubbub

    When Alan Arkin was in the 1960s movie of that name, they marched along singing It's a long way to Tipperary. The movie was a little bit of detente not long after the Cuban missile crisis, with a few humanizing elements. Of course, just reminiscing about such topics these days can get one branded as a Putin sympathizer.


    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060921/?ref_=nv_sr_1

  • @Opinionator
    @syonredux

    What do you like about The Tempest?

    Replies: @syonredux, @Mike Sylwester, @Sayless

    “What do you like about the tempest?”

    The dialogue.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    @Sayless

    Will pay closer attention to it.

  • @SPMoore8
    @Anonymous

    The German Titanic movie is not very good although footage from it was used in later Titanic movies. German cinema, including such things as Nosferatu, Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Metropolis, Blue Angel, Kameradschaft, and "M" was absolutely top shelf in the pre-Hitler period. Metropolis and "M" were both made by Fritz Lang who later came to the US and made film noir. There's a lot there if you dig around. From the '60's, I've known a number of people who swear by Fassbender and Werner Herzog. And Roland Emmerich is also German, last time I checked.

    Replies: @Kylie, @Miro23, @neon2

    German cinema was hugely influenced by Max Reinhardt, the brilliant Austrian theatre and film director. Many Germans working in film emigrated to Hollywood, spreading his influence there. Reinhardt influenced Murnau, for example, who in turn influenced John Ford.

    Reinhardt directed Hollywood’s 1935 version of A Midsummer Night’s Dream, which is still available. It’s dazzling.

    • Agree: SPMoore8
  • @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Corvinus


    Remember, however, you invaded and invited the darkies to the party in the first place for their labor.
     
    Speak for yourself, you descendant of money-grubbing slave traders.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Speak for yourself, you descendant of money-grubbing slave traders.”

    That statement is clearly anti-white.

    Regardless I’m Polish and German. My ancestors invaded America as “bad whites” in the mid- and late 1800’s. I, and them, have a clear conscience.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Corvinus


    Regardless I’m Polish and German. My ancestors invaded America as “bad whites” in the mid- and late 1800′s. I, and them, have a clear conscience.
     
    MMM, clearly you are not conversant with current SJW trends. All Whites are recipients of White privilege. Hence, all Whites are equally guilty.

    And, yes, I've seen "Ellis Island" class Whites try to squirm out of their White guilt at my uni (none of my ancestors owned slaves; they didn't live in the Jim Crow South, etc). The SJWs bring the hammer down on them. Hard.

    If you want to be free of the taint of White privilege, convert to Islam. Or maybe change your name to something Spanish and start talking about the burden of being "Latinx" in Anglo-America.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  • @bomag
    @SPMoore8

    I happened to catch NPR's breathless interview with Genius this morning. He said something like, "until this election, I had no idea the depth of White supremacy in this country."

    Yeah, a guy who has spent his career observing and chronicling, is caught flat footed, so, surprise surprise, we have to root and hack even harder until the warm glow of racial happiness descends on us all.

    Replies: @Spotted Toad

    It occurs to me that the “Tragedy of History” approach that Ta Nehisi Coates takes is basically a mirror image of a biological determinist approach; in both cases, there is nothing to be done, our failures are preordained, and in fact biological determinism *is* historical determinism, since the evolutionary differentiation of different human groups occurred in time, and maybe not all that distant time. Coates’s answer allows for the allocation of moral responsibility exclusively on one group, corrupted by the taint of white supremacy, of course.

    The funny part is that a substantial number of counties went twice for Obama and then for Trump (against a white woman) and somehow that shows the depth of white supremacy. More generally, I am beginning to suspect that the idolization of people like Coates has less to do with the specific grievances of black Americans than the desire to use black suffering as an engine to pull along the train of Diversity; why else would the victory of an arguably anti-Muslim and anti-Mexican candidate be so relentlessly described by Bouie and Coates as anti-black? The actual black voters in Milwaukee didn’t show up to vote for Hillary.

  • @Karl
    @Steve Sailer

    > His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn’t terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he’d study law to be safe in case the writing didn’t work out


    I vaguely remember reading that (saxophonist) Kenny G's father, made him complete his degree in accounting before allowing him to go work paid gigs for a living.


    PS: concur on the opens-in-mobile-by-default problem.

    Replies: @Authenticjazzman, @Authenticjazzman, @Jim Don Bob, @Authenticjazzman

    Kenny G should have stuck to accounting.

  • @Prof. Woland
    @SFG

    400 years from now, I doubt that Audre Lorde will be known for anything, let alone her shitty poetry.
    In fact, I don't think anybody knows who she is now.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    I had never heard of Audre Lorde before reading this article. But then I am a proud Deplorable, now in my second month of gloating.

  • @Bill B.
    @TheJester


    The Nobel Prize-winning author, V. S. Naipaul, from Trinidad would have been a better choice than Andre Lorde if the issue was simply finding a non-White writer-of-note to replace Shakespeare...

    I’m pessimistic that the Millennials can get an education that can equal Naipaul’s in the current atmosphere in academia … especially at Ivy League schools.


     

    Correct.

    I heard a Naipaul speech about a decade ago in which he excoriated Oxford University for dumbing down its English degree, turning into a "reading romp" instead of the "hard, hard" course he took in the 50s requiring IIRC deep knowledge of early English, French, the ancients, etc.

    He said such contemporary courses were "useless" because they were so easy and merely required the cadet to adopt the jargon of the adept so as to signal membership of the club "one clown to another".

    He described modern academic language as being as pretentious of 18th Century French court talk when, he said, preening fools called teeth the "furniture of the mouth" and so on.

    Replies: @Tulip, @guest

    Hence why paying Naipaul any respect would not further the mission of diversity, which requires rote memorization and regurgitation of slogans rather than subject matter or examinations that test critical intelligence or would clearly demonstrate hate-inducing differences in cognitive aptitudes.

  • @Karl
    @Steve Sailer

    > His father wanted him to follow in the family trade, but wasn’t terribly surprised when his son said he wanted to be a writer rather than an engineer. But the father and son agreed he’d study law to be safe in case the writing didn’t work out


    I vaguely remember reading that (saxophonist) Kenny G's father, made him complete his degree in accounting before allowing him to go work paid gigs for a living.


    PS: concur on the opens-in-mobile-by-default problem.

    Replies: @Authenticjazzman, @Authenticjazzman, @Jim Don Bob, @Authenticjazzman

    Perhaps some can explain to my mensa mind just why this totally harmless posting has been blocked :

    ” Saxophonist Kenny G’s father made him complete his degree in accounting”

    The music world would have been far better off if he, KG, had stuck with accounting.

    Authenticjazzman, “Mensa” Society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

  • @Tiny Duck
    there is a whole lot of speculation as to whether or not Shakespeare wrote any of the works attributed to him anyway. Nevertheless, good move.

    Shakespeare is lauded everywhere so I don't get the big deal. People of Color have been overlooked for far too long

    white mediocrity is deemed worth more than the real blood, sweat, and tears of People of Color

    Most People of Color agree with this action. That tells you something right there

    Replies: @Hunsdon, @PSR, @Mr. Anon, @Authenticjazzman, @Cloudbuster, @Johanus de Morgateroyde, @Daniel Chieh, @Lagertha

    As a Person of Color, I identify you as an idiot. I don’t agree with this action at all – it literally is just trying to score more Diversity Points.

    The University of Beijing does not put up drawings of minority writers just because, nor does it need to. If Han Chinese writers happen to be amongst our best, so they should be honored. Nothing else needs to matter.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @guest

    Vince McMahon's stuff is awfully entertaining.

    Maybe in the future the WWE will be the basis of our culture and scholars will debate Vince McMahon's status. They will watch and rewatch the video of Vince being punched in the face by the President, looking for subtle clues.

    Replies: @guest, @whorefinder

    I find McMahon personally entertaining. The way his facial expressions change, and how he can fall over a chair, for instance. But I can’t watch more than 30 seconds of professional wrestling in a row.

  • @keypusher
    @SPMoore8

    I think Shakespeare tends to be over-rated relative to his contemporaries (which include Marlowe, Bacon, and many others)

    There were a lot of very good playwrights then, and some of them wrote better plays than some of Shakespeare's, which nevertheless get produced because -- Shakespeare. On the other hand, if it wasn't for WS, maybe Jonson and Webster and B&F would never get produced at all. There are some Restoration and 18th century comedies that I loved reading but I never expect to see.

    Marlowe was great, and he would have been much greater if he hadn't gotten murdered when he was 29. The Jew of Malta is a rattling good read, and I think it would be terrific on stage (the title is a bit of a barrier -- Shakespeare was lucky that he named his comparable play for a different character, perhaps because he didn't want it to sound too much like Marlowe's play). That said, I think The Merchant of Venice is a much profounder work, and Shylock is a much more complex and interesting character than the comic-book supervillain Barabbas. But again, Shakespeare was in his early-mid 30s when he wrote it, and we'll never know what Marlowe would have been doing at that age.

    I don't know what it means to say that Shakespeare is overrated compared to Bacon. Great imaginative literature tends to last longer than scientific or political work. We still read the Greek poets, but hardly anyone reads Galen or Euclid.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @guest

    I was shocked how much I liked Webster, and how easy it was to read. I’ve read at least three Marlowes and been entertained. The Changeling by I can’t remember who is great.

    How do things like Elizabethan theater happen?

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @guest

    "Changeling" was Middleton and Rowley, technically not Elizabethan (she died in 1603) but Jacobean, that is, under King James. Then the period from James' death (1624, I think) is called "Carolingian" after King Charles. Then the theaters were closed in 1642 when Charles lost his head; for 20 years.

    Elizabethan drama happened for the same reason that Elizabethan literature happened; it was promoted by wealthy guys like Oxford, there were a lot of highly educated and prolific writers in London looking to make a buck, there was an emerging audience of literate Britons looking for stuff to read, etc. etc. I also think that the emergence of such things as standardized spelling and shift in printface from the godawful Gothic script to a font that was much more legible.

    Replies: @Ivy, @guest

  • Skeptics of Shakespeare’s breadth of knowledge seem to overlook that, by comparison with today’s information-glutted world, in pre-Industrial Revolution times literate people had lots of undistracted time in which to learn about the world and to absorb the then-extant body of knowledge, the latter being then much smaller and far less comprehensive and specialized than today’s tremendous body of knowledge, much of which is specialized today in heavily credentialed disciplines and professions, each one of which has today its own body knowledge that’s larger than the entire body of knowledge of Elizabethan England. In Shakespeare’s day there were far fewer specialized disciplines, there was also much greater cross-pollination among the then few disciplines and professions.

    Before electricity grids and mass media came along and provided endless instant interruption, diversion, and gratification, people who were literate had an abundance of time to converse among themselves and to read a great deal – a lot more quiet time, uninterrupted and undistracted by mass media, in which to ponder what they’d heard in conversation and had read for themselves. To put this into a contemporary frame of reference, Shakespeare knew about the aristocracy and jurisprudence in the same way in which people today know and beat their gums about the biographical and professional details of countless celebrities, pop stars, infamous criminals, and such. In short, to have gained knowledge of the aristocracy and jurisprudence Shakespeare needn’t have been an aristocrat, or have studied law. In Shakespeare’s time it was, arguably, indeed demonstrably, much easier for the intelligent literate to become polymaths or simply to become sufficiently familiar with other disciplines to become conversant in them.

  • @Bill B.
    @TheJester


    The Nobel Prize-winning author, V. S. Naipaul, from Trinidad would have been a better choice than Andre Lorde if the issue was simply finding a non-White writer-of-note to replace Shakespeare...

    I’m pessimistic that the Millennials can get an education that can equal Naipaul’s in the current atmosphere in academia … especially at Ivy League schools.


     

    Correct.

    I heard a Naipaul speech about a decade ago in which he excoriated Oxford University for dumbing down its English degree, turning into a "reading romp" instead of the "hard, hard" course he took in the 50s requiring IIRC deep knowledge of early English, French, the ancients, etc.

    He said such contemporary courses were "useless" because they were so easy and merely required the cadet to adopt the jargon of the adept so as to signal membership of the club "one clown to another".

    He described modern academic language as being as pretentious of 18th Century French court talk when, he said, preening fools called teeth the "furniture of the mouth" and so on.

    Replies: @Tulip, @guest

    I know I minored in English because I wanted fun things to read. (My major forced me either to minor in something else or learn another language; this way was easier.) I often think it was a mistake to introduce English at all in education, let alone at the university level. You should he able to read and understand your own language. And what are English scholars experts in? Trivia, basically.

    Why do we pay people for the umpteenth deconstruction of a random Jane Austen novel written in jargoneses that no one will read?

  • @Johnny Smoggins
    @Cloudbuster

    "Women did it — we have many women who are simply famous for being good writers not “good female writers.”

    Really? So where have they been hiding all these centuries?

    Replies: @guest

    They exist, there are just so many fewer of them then their male counterparts. They can’t even really outdo men in the field of trashy novels, which are almost exclusively read by women, unless they happen to be sci-fi/fantasy or history/war-related (even then, check out Outlander, for instance–yuck). You know: Austen, the Brontes…so forth.

  • @I, Libertine
    @whorefinder

    You seem like a bright guy, but my goodness! Frank Abagnale as an explanation for Shaksper's intimate knowledge of: law, falconry, sailing, the details of Italian geography, romance languages (don't believe that "small Latin and less Greek" red herring from Jonson; Shakespeare wrote adaptions of stories not yet translated into English), music, ancient history, equestrian sports, etc etc. To say nothing of an intimate acquaintance with the Earl of Southampton.

    Yes, he could have.

    He


    must have
     
    !

    After all, since we know a prior that Shakspere was Shakespeare, it is certain that he


    did
     
    . Somehow.

    Well, DeVere did. Not just somehow. He did.

    I think somebody on this thread said DeVere didn't study law intensely. Do your own research, folks.

    During edit time: I don't know the reason for the bad formatting. I blame Steve.

    Replies: @keypusher, @whorefinder

    law, falconry, sailing, the details of Italian geography, romance languages (don’t believe that “small Latin and less Greek” red herring from Jonson; Shakespeare wrote adaptions of stories not yet translated into English), music, ancient history, equestrian sports, etc etc.

    All of his knowledge could have easily been picked up by a bright man apprenticing in the theater and paying attention to the various plays already being put on and the intellectual topis of the day in London, and thereafter pumping a few experts in the field to fill in a gap or two if he wanted. His errors in geography, btw, are legendary, that’s a bad example for you.

    It wasn’t “expert” at all, except in the case that Shakespeare was thorough in his knowledge, like any high-level screenwriter today.

    He had a wealth of sources already available to anyone working in the theater. He honed them well, but it really isn’t a surprise. Plenty of screenwriters today do it today to a far lesser extent, pumping out scripts regarding topics they aren’t experts in or schooled in but they studied up on it.

    To say nothing of an intimate acquaintance with the Earl of Southampton.

    He had a patron. He wrote poems dedicated to the patron. Common for the time. Today’s equivalent would be Matt Damon, shortly after Good Will Hunting hit it big, giving a speech or making a cameo at an event held by an influential rich dude in Hollywood.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    To answer the question how did Shakespeare know so much, it helps to look at a living playwright who had similar amounts of education, Tom Stoppard.

    Tom Stoppard has made himself seem like an expert on a multitude of topics in his plays and screenplays (and screenplay doctoring jobs). He is very open about his techniques for achieving a credible level of seeming expertise and about the limits on his actual expertise. His latest play, The Hard Question, for example, takes on a number of topics I've ginned up as well in the human sciences, and his acknowledgement page cites friends of people I know who helped him out. Reading it, it even struck me that one or two minor characters sound like they could be based on friends of mine.

    Stoppard uses his old journalist skills (he was a reporter in his late teens) to get up to speed on a topic by reading books and interviewing experts. I presume Shakespeare did something similar.

    Shakespeare was faster than Stoppard though.

    Replies: @whorefinder

  • @CJ
    @Steve Sailer

    Duke University has two departments of anthropology. Evolutionary Anthropology is an actual science-oriented program administered under the purview of the medical school. Cultural Anthropology ("Cul Anth") is, to borrow from Vox Day, a fully-converged social justice warrior operation.

    Replies: @black sea, @guest

    Does the term “cul anth” actually pass human lips, or is it something people merely write? Or is it a joke? Because it’s about the ugliest thing I’ve ever heard.

  • @SPMoore8
    @keypusher

    I was actually trying to make a case *for* Shakespeare for Desiderius, but to be honest I think WS can be criticized and I think his contemporaries don't get the credit they deserve.

    Partly it's a matter of taste, but I prefer prose to drama. But in drama, virtually all of the half dozen Marlowe plays that we know are definitely of "Shakespearean" quality. And there are many others, including anonymous plays, which is why it is not unusual for Shakespeare societies to put on non-Shakespeare plays like Dekker's "Shoemaker's Holiday" or Marlowe's "Doctor Faustus." TS Eliot was a fan of some of Chapman's plays. Fact is, there's a number of excellent plays of the period that tend to be obscured by Shakespeare's demigod status, although even today it is said that Shakespeare "had a hand" in some of them, like Edward III, or Arden of Faversham, or what have you. But if that is true then it also means that WS collaborated with other playwrights like Kyd, Lodge, and so on, which further implies they collaborated with him.

    Another part of the issue is that there has long been the idea that WS collaborated with others in the Folio plays, including Greene, Marlowe, etc. in the Henry VI plays, Peele in Titus, Wilkins in Pericles, and many others. I note that nowadays that Middleton is argued as having input in several later WS plays. I think play authorship in those days was not as clearcut as we like to think.

    WS left no prose, but Philip Sidney, Nashe, Lodge, Dekker also wrote extremely well in the idiom of late Elizabeth and early James that we associate with WS exclusively, because of his fame. Guys like Drayton, Daniel, Lodge, and Sidney, in their poetry and sonnet cycles were also very good. This is also the period where Florio translated Montaigne, North translated Plutarch, Lodge Seneca, and many others. Not to mention Holinshed's Chronicle, which turns up more or less intact in many history plays of the era, including WS.

    I agree that Oxford probably had nothing to do with any of the plays of the period. He might have had something to do with poetry. However, he was a big patron of the arts and helped support a lot of WS writing contemporaries, he should be respected for that, not mocked.

    As for Bacon, I think his Essays and other writings are great stuff, but again I suppose it's a matte r of taste. Just trying to be fair in my own estimation of the era.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @guest, @syonredux, @Desiderius

    There are dramas in prose. A lot of Shakespeare is in prose, in fact. Check out Falstaff, for instance.

  • @Anon 2
    @whorefinder

    Polish nobility continued to be fluent in French
    until at least World War I, and probably beyond.
    Joseph Conrad (Korzeniowski) is a good example.
    He spoke French with no accent, and even though
    his novels are now part of the English canon and his
    wife was British, to the end of his days he spoke
    English with a thick foreign accent, as attested, for
    example, by Bertrand Russell. Russell and Conrad
    became close friends, perhaps because they both shared
    a tragic view of life. On the other hand, William James
    and Conrad spoke French when they got together to talk
    about literature. Conrad could only talk about the finer
    points of literature in French.

    France and Poland, being both Catholic, have had a great
    deal of affinity for each other. During the French Revolution
    thousands of French nobles ran to Poland (and not to Germany)
    to escape the Reign of Terror. Until WW I England was still
    to some extent regarded as a "nation of shopkeepers." I mean
    how could Victorian England compare with the flowering of La
    Belle Époque in France. England had few if any great composers,
    great painters or great sculptors (or great food!). Great science,
    personified by Darwin or Maxwell, just doesn't have the same cachet.
    English didn't really become important until the 1920s and even more
    so 1950s with the rise of the United States and the self-destruction of the
    European powers. I grew up in Europe so this is based on my own direct
    experience

    Replies: @syonredux, @dfordoom

    Until WW I England was still
    to some extent regarded as a “nation of shopkeepers.” I mean
    how could Victorian England compare with the flowering of La
    Belle Époque in France. England had few if any great composers,
    great painters or great sculptors (or great food!). Great science,
    personified by Darwin or Maxwell, just doesn’t have the same cachet.
    English didn’t really become important until the 1920s and even more
    so 1950s with the rise of the United States and the self-destruction of the
    European powers.

    You’re simply being silly. British Lit was quite influential during the 19th century (Byron, Scott, Dickens, etc). Savile Row set the standards for male sartorial elegance. Even Anglophobic France had its Anglophiles:

    The Jockey Club was originally organized as the “Society for the Encouragement of the Improvement of Horse Breeding in France,” to provide a single authority for horse racing in the nation, beginning at Chantilly in 1834. It swiftly became the center for the most sportifs gentlemen of tout-Paris. At the same time, when aristocrats and men of the haute bourgeoisie still formed the governing class, its Anglo-Gallic membership could not fail to give it some political colour: Napoleon III, who had passed some early exile in England, asserted that he had learned to govern an empire through “his intercourse with the calm, self-possessed men of the English turf”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jockey-Club_de_Paris

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    @syonredux

    I was referring specifically to the formal study of
    the English language by the Continentals. English
    didn't become a popular part of the high school curriculum
    until after WW I, or perhaps even after WW II, and in the countries
    of the Soviet Bloc not until the '90s (Russian was forcibly taught
    in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc against the wishes of the
    population while Russian children studied German or English).
    To give a more recent example, Albert Einstein in the 1920s was
    frequently invited to give lectures in France and western Switzerland,
    and he was able to deliver them in French. His French was grammatically
    credible and he spoke it with only a slight German accent whereas his spoken
    English was heavily accented and high pitched. To give Einstein proper credit,
    he was much older when he came to the U.S.

    Of course, some members of the Continental elites fancied the English even
    in the 18th century. For example, Voltaire since he was so enamored of Newtonian
    physics and mechanistic philosophy

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Desiderius

  • @Corvinus
    @Charles Erwin Wilson

    "Speak for yourself, you descendant of money-grubbing slave traders."

    That statement is clearly anti-white.

    Regardless I'm Polish and German. My ancestors invaded America as "bad whites" in the mid- and late 1800's. I, and them, have a clear conscience.

    Replies: @syonredux

    Regardless I’m Polish and German. My ancestors invaded America as “bad whites” in the mid- and late 1800′s. I, and them, have a clear conscience.

    MMM, clearly you are not conversant with current SJW trends. All Whites are recipients of White privilege. Hence, all Whites are equally guilty.

    And, yes, I’ve seen “Ellis Island” class Whites try to squirm out of their White guilt at my uni (none of my ancestors owned slaves; they didn’t live in the Jim Crow South, etc). The SJWs bring the hammer down on them. Hard.

    If you want to be free of the taint of White privilege, convert to Islam. Or maybe change your name to something Spanish and start talking about the burden of being “Latinx” in Anglo-America.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @syonredux

    "MMM, clearly you are not conversant with current SJW trends. All Whites are recipients of White privilege. Hence, all Whites are equally guilty."

    I am familiar with the version of truth of the extreme left. But, in reality, moderates and liberals do not hold that position. Of course, the narrative crafted by the Coalition of the Right Fringe groups states otherwise.

    "And, yes, I’ve seen “Ellis Island” class Whites try to squirm out of their White guilt at my uni (none of my ancestors owned slaves; they didn’t live in the Jim Crow South, etc). The SJWs bring the hammer down on them. Hard."

    I say to the SJW's "We. Don't. Care".

    "If you want to be free of the taint of White privilege, convert to Islam. Or maybe change your name to something Spanish and start talking about the burden of being “Latinx” in Anglo-America."

    White privilege, similar to race realism, are conjured up terms designed by radicals to promote a particular agenda.

    Replies: @syonredux

  • @syonredux
    @Corvinus


    Regardless I’m Polish and German. My ancestors invaded America as “bad whites” in the mid- and late 1800′s. I, and them, have a clear conscience.
     
    MMM, clearly you are not conversant with current SJW trends. All Whites are recipients of White privilege. Hence, all Whites are equally guilty.

    And, yes, I've seen "Ellis Island" class Whites try to squirm out of their White guilt at my uni (none of my ancestors owned slaves; they didn't live in the Jim Crow South, etc). The SJWs bring the hammer down on them. Hard.

    If you want to be free of the taint of White privilege, convert to Islam. Or maybe change your name to something Spanish and start talking about the burden of being "Latinx" in Anglo-America.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “MMM, clearly you are not conversant with current SJW trends. All Whites are recipients of White privilege. Hence, all Whites are equally guilty.”

    I am familiar with the version of truth of the extreme left. But, in reality, moderates and liberals do not hold that position. Of course, the narrative crafted by the Coalition of the Right Fringe groups states otherwise.

    “And, yes, I’ve seen “Ellis Island” class Whites try to squirm out of their White guilt at my uni (none of my ancestors owned slaves; they didn’t live in the Jim Crow South, etc). The SJWs bring the hammer down on them. Hard.”

    I say to the SJW’s “We. Don’t. Care”.

    “If you want to be free of the taint of White privilege, convert to Islam. Or maybe change your name to something Spanish and start talking about the burden of being “Latinx” in Anglo-America.”

    White privilege, similar to race realism, are conjured up terms designed by radicals to promote a particular agenda.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Corvinus


    I am familiar with the version of truth of the extreme left. But, in reality, moderates and liberals do not hold that position.
     
    Dunno, dear fellow. All the "liberals" that I know back down when confronted with their ancestral White guilt. Especially when they are confronted on the issue by Blacks.

    I say to the SJW’s “We. Don’t. Care”.
     
    Which merely confirms your guilt in the eyes of the righteous....

    White privilege, similar to race realism, are conjured up terms designed by radicals to promote a particular agenda.
     
    Yes, dear fellow. It's the POC-SJW agenda. You know, the people who control TV, film, publishing, the universities, .....

    Replies: @Corvinus

  • @SPMoore8
    @keypusher

    I was actually trying to make a case *for* Shakespeare for Desiderius, but to be honest I think WS can be criticized and I think his contemporaries don't get the credit they deserve.

    Partly it's a matter of taste, but I prefer prose to drama. But in drama, virtually all of the half dozen Marlowe plays that we know are definitely of "Shakespearean" quality. And there are many others, including anonymous plays, which is why it is not unusual for Shakespeare societies to put on non-Shakespeare plays like Dekker's "Shoemaker's Holiday" or Marlowe's "Doctor Faustus." TS Eliot was a fan of some of Chapman's plays. Fact is, there's a number of excellent plays of the period that tend to be obscured by Shakespeare's demigod status, although even today it is said that Shakespeare "had a hand" in some of them, like Edward III, or Arden of Faversham, or what have you. But if that is true then it also means that WS collaborated with other playwrights like Kyd, Lodge, and so on, which further implies they collaborated with him.

    Another part of the issue is that there has long been the idea that WS collaborated with others in the Folio plays, including Greene, Marlowe, etc. in the Henry VI plays, Peele in Titus, Wilkins in Pericles, and many others. I note that nowadays that Middleton is argued as having input in several later WS plays. I think play authorship in those days was not as clearcut as we like to think.

    WS left no prose, but Philip Sidney, Nashe, Lodge, Dekker also wrote extremely well in the idiom of late Elizabeth and early James that we associate with WS exclusively, because of his fame. Guys like Drayton, Daniel, Lodge, and Sidney, in their poetry and sonnet cycles were also very good. This is also the period where Florio translated Montaigne, North translated Plutarch, Lodge Seneca, and many others. Not to mention Holinshed's Chronicle, which turns up more or less intact in many history plays of the era, including WS.

    I agree that Oxford probably had nothing to do with any of the plays of the period. He might have had something to do with poetry. However, he was a big patron of the arts and helped support a lot of WS writing contemporaries, he should be respected for that, not mocked.

    As for Bacon, I think his Essays and other writings are great stuff, but again I suppose it's a matte r of taste. Just trying to be fair in my own estimation of the era.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @guest, @syonredux, @Desiderius

    WS left no prose

    Not entirely true, I’m afraid. Large chunks of the plays are written in prose. For example, my favorite passage from I Henry IV:

    No, I’ll be sworn; I make as good use of it as many
    a man doth of a Death’s-head or a memento mori: I
    never see thy face but I think upon hell-fire and
    Dives that lived in purple; for there he is in his
    robes, burning, burning. If thou wert any way
    given to virtue, I would swear by thy face; my oath
    should be ‘By this fire, that’s God’s angel:’ but
    thou art altogether given over; and wert indeed, but
    for the light in thy face, the son of utter
    darkness. When thou rannest up Gadshill in the
    night to catch my horse, if I did not think thou
    hadst been an ignis fatuus or a ball of wildfire,
    there’s no purchase in money. O, thou art a
    perpetual triumph, an everlasting bonfire-light!
    Thou hast saved me a thousand marks in links and
    torches, walking with thee in the night betwixt
    tavern and tavern: but the sack that thou hast
    drunk me would have bought me lights as good cheap
    at the dearest chandler’s in Europe. I have
    maintained that salamander of yours with fire any
    time this two and thirty years; God reward me for
    it!

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @syonredux

    I meant prose as opposed to drama: Shakespeare left none. It's true that a lot of the plays are in prose, but they are often line-breaked as though they were metrical. In fact, even your excerpt does that.

    Replies: @syonredux, @guest, @guest

  • @Corvinus
    @syonredux

    "MMM, clearly you are not conversant with current SJW trends. All Whites are recipients of White privilege. Hence, all Whites are equally guilty."

    I am familiar with the version of truth of the extreme left. But, in reality, moderates and liberals do not hold that position. Of course, the narrative crafted by the Coalition of the Right Fringe groups states otherwise.

    "And, yes, I’ve seen “Ellis Island” class Whites try to squirm out of their White guilt at my uni (none of my ancestors owned slaves; they didn’t live in the Jim Crow South, etc). The SJWs bring the hammer down on them. Hard."

    I say to the SJW's "We. Don't. Care".

    "If you want to be free of the taint of White privilege, convert to Islam. Or maybe change your name to something Spanish and start talking about the burden of being “Latinx” in Anglo-America."

    White privilege, similar to race realism, are conjured up terms designed by radicals to promote a particular agenda.

    Replies: @syonredux

    I am familiar with the version of truth of the extreme left. But, in reality, moderates and liberals do not hold that position.

    Dunno, dear fellow. All the “liberals” that I know back down when confronted with their ancestral White guilt. Especially when they are confronted on the issue by Blacks.

    I say to the SJW’s “We. Don’t. Care”.

    Which merely confirms your guilt in the eyes of the righteous….

    White privilege, similar to race realism, are conjured up terms designed by radicals to promote a particular agenda.

    Yes, dear fellow. It’s the POC-SJW agenda. You know, the people who control TV, film, publishing, the universities, …..

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @syonredux

    "Dunno, dear fellow. All the “liberals” that I know back down when confronted with their ancestral White guilt. Especially when they are confronted on the issue by Blacks."

    The liberals I know are high T men who enjoy taking umbrage to those radical who employ shaming tactics.

    "Which merely confirms your guilt in the eyes of the righteous…."

    No, it confirms that We. Don't. Care. That label means nothing to us.

    "Yes, dear fellow. It’s the POC-SJW agenda."

    Cultural Marxism is a hoax. The agenda is for "good whites" to root out moral corruption in our cultural outlets. It's a scam of epic proportions.

  • For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.

    I’m not sure what precisely this means……

    Ahh, cah-mon, Steve – sure you do.

    She was a, cough, poet, correct? So let’s put it in verse form:

    Roses be red
    Violets am blue
    First we kill Whitey
    Then the so-called Jew

  • Oops, did hunt for whitey mutate into hunt for Zionists?

    In the process of becoming ‘more evolved’, mutations do occur.

    The GLOB isn’t afraid of zombies. It is afraid of mutants.

    http://www.mindingthecampus.org/2016/12/humanities-pretty-much-dead-are-mostly-a-hunt-for-racism-and-sexism/

  • @MC
    @Lord Jeff Sessions

    I don't doubt that what you are saying is true, but I've lived on both sides of the continental divide, and I think the obsession with going to the very highest school that picked you, as opposed to the one that offers the best scholarship, or is closest to home, or has a great football team, is more of an East Coast than a West Coast thing. Or maybe it's an upper class as opposed to middle or UMC thing. Because there are lots of very very smart middle class kids in the Midwest, South, Southwest, or Mountain West, who could get into some lesser Ivy or Near Ivy, but go to the flagship State U. because it's plenty good, is close (but not too close) to home, costs a fraction as much, and is a helluva lot more fun.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

    Agreed.
    Berkeley was always as socially acceptable as Stanford; only the insecure thought otherwise. Nothing like that exists in New England, although the South and the Middle West have notable examples. I chose Berkeley because having grown up in Palo Alto I knew Stanford like the back of my hand, and the last thing I wanted was to go home every day after class. I actually went as a freshman to the most expensive four year college in America (at the time) which was indeed on the East Coast. I returned to California, and specifically to Berkeley, because I wanted a better library. There I educated myself far more thoroughly (and enjoyably) than in any but the rarest of my actual courses, all of which, as it happened, were taught either by Easterners or Europeans.

    • Replies: @Prof. Woland
    @Old Palo Altan

    Go Bears!

  • @Anonymous
    @Opinionator

    No, no, you are doing Ducklet an injustice. He said Trump collided with Russia. It was at night and snowing hard. Trump apologized, then asked, "Excuse me, is this the way to the White House?"

    Replies: @neon2

    A superb little flight of fancy! Do keep them coming.

  • @syonredux
    @SPMoore8


    WS left no prose
     
    Not entirely true, I'm afraid. Large chunks of the plays are written in prose. For example, my favorite passage from I Henry IV:

    No, I'll be sworn; I make as good use of it as many
    a man doth of a Death's-head or a memento mori: I
    never see thy face but I think upon hell-fire and
    Dives that lived in purple; for there he is in his
    robes, burning, burning. If thou wert any way
    given to virtue, I would swear by thy face; my oath
    should be 'By this fire, that's God's angel:' but
    thou art altogether given over; and wert indeed, but
    for the light in thy face, the son of utter
    darkness. When thou rannest up Gadshill in the
    night to catch my horse, if I did not think thou
    hadst been an ignis fatuus or a ball of wildfire,
    there's no purchase in money. O, thou art a
    perpetual triumph, an everlasting bonfire-light!
    Thou hast saved me a thousand marks in links and
    torches, walking with thee in the night betwixt
    tavern and tavern: but the sack that thou hast
    drunk me would have bought me lights as good cheap
    at the dearest chandler's in Europe. I have
    maintained that salamander of yours with fire any
    time this two and thirty years; God reward me for
    it!
     

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    I meant prose as opposed to drama: Shakespeare left none. It’s true that a lot of the plays are in prose, but they are often line-breaked as though they were metrical. In fact, even your excerpt does that.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @SPMoore8


    I meant prose as opposed to drama:
     
    Gotcha.

    It’s true that a lot of the plays are in prose, but they are often line-breaked as though they were metrical. In fact, even your excerpt does that.
     
    Which always struck me as more than a little silly.
    , @guest
    @SPMoore8

    What is prose as opposed to drama? Those are not mutually exclusive. It's actually very hard to find drama written in anything but prose lately.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    , @guest
    @SPMoore8

    The versions of Shakespeare plays I own clearly set the prose parts differently than the meter.

  • @SPMoore8
    @Anonymous

    The German Titanic movie is not very good although footage from it was used in later Titanic movies. German cinema, including such things as Nosferatu, Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Metropolis, Blue Angel, Kameradschaft, and "M" was absolutely top shelf in the pre-Hitler period. Metropolis and "M" were both made by Fritz Lang who later came to the US and made film noir. There's a lot there if you dig around. From the '60's, I've known a number of people who swear by Fassbender and Werner Herzog. And Roland Emmerich is also German, last time I checked.

    Replies: @Kylie, @Miro23, @neon2

    I can recommend Fritz Lang’s “Dr Mabuse the Gambler”. 4 1/2 hours (!) Some strong similarities to the present U.S.

    Product Description (from Amazon)

    Dr. Mabuse – criminal genius, psychologist, hypnotist, counterfeiter, card shark, master of disguise, thief of state secrets and ruler of a sinister empire founded on selfishness, chicanery and murder–gained his first screen incarnation in this monumental film by Fritz Lang, one of cinema’s greatest directors. Made in 1922 and subtitled “A Picture of Our Time,” “Dr. Mabuse, The Gambler” is indeed a snapshot of a historical moment when Germany was likened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Miro23


    I can recommend Fritz Lang’s “Dr Mabuse the Gambler”
     
    I can recommend all of Fritz Lang’s German movies. SPION (SPIES) is terrific.
  • @SPMoore8
    @syonredux

    I meant prose as opposed to drama: Shakespeare left none. It's true that a lot of the plays are in prose, but they are often line-breaked as though they were metrical. In fact, even your excerpt does that.

    Replies: @syonredux, @guest, @guest

    I meant prose as opposed to drama:

    Gotcha.

    It’s true that a lot of the plays are in prose, but they are often line-breaked as though they were metrical. In fact, even your excerpt does that.

    Which always struck me as more than a little silly.

  • @SPMoore8
    @keypusher

    I was actually trying to make a case *for* Shakespeare for Desiderius, but to be honest I think WS can be criticized and I think his contemporaries don't get the credit they deserve.

    Partly it's a matter of taste, but I prefer prose to drama. But in drama, virtually all of the half dozen Marlowe plays that we know are definitely of "Shakespearean" quality. And there are many others, including anonymous plays, which is why it is not unusual for Shakespeare societies to put on non-Shakespeare plays like Dekker's "Shoemaker's Holiday" or Marlowe's "Doctor Faustus." TS Eliot was a fan of some of Chapman's plays. Fact is, there's a number of excellent plays of the period that tend to be obscured by Shakespeare's demigod status, although even today it is said that Shakespeare "had a hand" in some of them, like Edward III, or Arden of Faversham, or what have you. But if that is true then it also means that WS collaborated with other playwrights like Kyd, Lodge, and so on, which further implies they collaborated with him.

    Another part of the issue is that there has long been the idea that WS collaborated with others in the Folio plays, including Greene, Marlowe, etc. in the Henry VI plays, Peele in Titus, Wilkins in Pericles, and many others. I note that nowadays that Middleton is argued as having input in several later WS plays. I think play authorship in those days was not as clearcut as we like to think.

    WS left no prose, but Philip Sidney, Nashe, Lodge, Dekker also wrote extremely well in the idiom of late Elizabeth and early James that we associate with WS exclusively, because of his fame. Guys like Drayton, Daniel, Lodge, and Sidney, in their poetry and sonnet cycles were also very good. This is also the period where Florio translated Montaigne, North translated Plutarch, Lodge Seneca, and many others. Not to mention Holinshed's Chronicle, which turns up more or less intact in many history plays of the era, including WS.

    I agree that Oxford probably had nothing to do with any of the plays of the period. He might have had something to do with poetry. However, he was a big patron of the arts and helped support a lot of WS writing contemporaries, he should be respected for that, not mocked.

    As for Bacon, I think his Essays and other writings are great stuff, but again I suppose it's a matte r of taste. Just trying to be fair in my own estimation of the era.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @guest, @syonredux, @Desiderius

    “Prosperity is the blessing of the Old Testament; adversity is the blessing of the New; which carrieth the greater benediction, and the clearer revelation of God’s favor. Yet even in the Old Testament, if you listen to David’s harp, you shall hear as many hearse-like airs as carols; and the pencil of the Holy Ghost hath labored more in describing the afflictions of Job, than the felicities of Solomon. Prosperity is not without many fears and distastes; and adversity is not without comforts and hopes. We see in needle-works and embroideries, it is more pleasing to have a lively work, upon a sad and solemn ground, than to have a dark and melancholy work, upon a lightsome ground: judge therefore of the pleasure of the heart, by the pleasure of the eye. Certainly virtue is like precious odors, most fragrant when they are incensed, or crushed: for prosperity doth best discover vice, but adversity doth best discover virtue.”

    Bacon, Of Adversity

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Desiderius

    There's a certain class of literature that really does aim to give you a better understanding of life, as it is lived by human beings. Bacon's essays fit this, so do Montaigne's, I think some of Seneca's moral essays also belong, so does Marcus Aurelius, some Schopenhauer (e.g., "The Wisdom of Life"), parts of William James' Psychology, and of course some holy books (e.g., Ecclesiastes). I'm sure there are many other books of this type but those are among the ones I keep returning to. And everyone should have a small library like that you remind you about keeping the faith, changing course, maintaining good habits and perspective, and so on.

    Replies: @David

  • @SPMoore8
    @Anonymous

    The German Titanic movie is not very good although footage from it was used in later Titanic movies. German cinema, including such things as Nosferatu, Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Metropolis, Blue Angel, Kameradschaft, and "M" was absolutely top shelf in the pre-Hitler period. Metropolis and "M" were both made by Fritz Lang who later came to the US and made film noir. There's a lot there if you dig around. From the '60's, I've known a number of people who swear by Fassbender and Werner Herzog. And Roland Emmerich is also German, last time I checked.

    Replies: @Kylie, @Miro23, @neon2

    The 1933-1945 films are often extremely good. Try Münchhausen (1943) or Opfergang (1944) or Kolberg (1945). These are highlights, but there are lots of enjoyable musicals and fantasy films to choose from, none of them straightforward propaganda.
    I’ll admit though that they had nobody with the genius of an Eisenstein.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @neon2

    Münchhausen is very good. As a fantasy film, it's comparable to Thief of Baghdad (1940) and The Wizard of Oz .


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchhausen_(film)

  • @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Desiderius


    Real change is already happening in local communities around the country. They’ll start to feel the pinch as word gets out to average UMC moms.

     

    Interesting -- would you mind saying a bit more about what you're seeing on the ground? Living outside the USA, it's hard to gauge grass-roots stuff.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Interesting — would you mind saying a bit more about what you’re seeing on the ground?

    I see it all around me, but it can also be seen by what’s not there in our elite (sic) institutions, particularity the Ivy League.

    They haven’t been getting the best men for a good long while, and even the babe drain shows signs of slowing. As usual, minorities and foreigners are late to the party, so they’re still sending their best and their brightest expecting a world-class education only to find the likes of Prof. Etsy, who , from the looks of him and his reaction to this little kerfluffle is about a 2 on the Harf-Mattis scale..

    No wonder they’re pissed.

    You don’t wind up with a turd in your punchbowl because someone prefers the taste of turd to punch; it’s there to send a message. Make no mistake – Audre Lorde is a turd. The message is that they’re not getting the education they were promised. And they’re not.

    Unearned status is a poor substitute for earned.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Desiderius

    Thanks for this reply.

    You're right about this message not yet being heard outside the USA. For example, just this week Hong Kong's main English-language newspaper, the South China Morning Post, had a frantic article moaning about how a lower percentage of HK applicants were being admitted to Oxford and Cambridge in comparison with Singapore and the mainland.

    It turns out, for example, that 12.96% of mainland applicants were admitted to Oxford this year, while a paltry, crushingly-deficient 12.7% of Hong Kong applicants got in! Oh, the humanity!!! Of course, no other factors (e.g. number of applicants as a percentage of the eligible cohort, etc.) were taken into account.

    It's hard to communicate how hysterical the higher ed scene is over here.

  • If you’re going to invest the time, money, and sacrifices necessary to attend an institution of ‘higher education’ you may as well emerge from such an education dumber than when you first signed on! Then you will have gained from your investment incalculable student loan debt you’ll be paying off for the rest of your life!!! And little else! There’s a reason Shakespeare is venerated and though this eludes the ‘intelligentsia’ at your local campus, it’s not because he’s white!

  • @Desiderius
    @SPMoore8

    "Prosperity is the blessing of the Old Testament; adversity is the blessing of the New; which carrieth the greater benediction, and the clearer revelation of God’s favor. Yet even in the Old Testament, if you listen to David’s harp, you shall hear as many hearse-like airs as carols; and the pencil of the Holy Ghost hath labored more in describing the afflictions of Job, than the felicities of Solomon. Prosperity is not without many fears and distastes; and adversity is not without comforts and hopes. We see in needle-works and embroideries, it is more pleasing to have a lively work, upon a sad and solemn ground, than to have a dark and melancholy work, upon a lightsome ground: judge therefore of the pleasure of the heart, by the pleasure of the eye. Certainly virtue is like precious odors, most fragrant when they are incensed, or crushed: for prosperity doth best discover vice, but adversity doth best discover virtue."

    Bacon, Of Adversity

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    There’s a certain class of literature that really does aim to give you a better understanding of life, as it is lived by human beings. Bacon’s essays fit this, so do Montaigne’s, I think some of Seneca’s moral essays also belong, so does Marcus Aurelius, some Schopenhauer (e.g., “The Wisdom of Life”), parts of William James’ Psychology, and of course some holy books (e.g., Ecclesiastes). I’m sure there are many other books of this type but those are among the ones I keep returning to. And everyone should have a small library like that you remind you about keeping the faith, changing course, maintaining good habits and perspective, and so on.

    • Replies: @David
    @SPMoore8

    I'd add Dr. Johnson's Rambler essays to your list. And if you're of such a mind, his private devotionals.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @SPMoore8

  • @Steve Sailer
    @guest

    Vince McMahon's stuff is awfully entertaining.

    Maybe in the future the WWE will be the basis of our culture and scholars will debate Vince McMahon's status. They will watch and rewatch the video of Vince being punched in the face by the President, looking for subtle clues.

    Replies: @guest, @whorefinder

    Vince McMahon is the last vaudvillian/circus man. His guys a traveling, nationwide show 4-5 times a week, travelling every day, doing big stunts in colorful costumes for an audience that normally doesn’t leave the confines of home.

    He’s P.T. Barnum and B.F. Keith rolled into one, and updated for modern times.

  • @Mr. Anon
    "The blackest thing ever happened on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania."

    Indeed it did.

    Jed Esty - your heart is burst, you have lost half your soul. Even now, now, very now, an old black lesbian is replacing your white bard.

    Replies: @Rob Lee, @Olorin

    I’ve searched for a CV for Jed Esty with no luck. But from his list of courses taught at his Penn home page, I see no evidence he ever got closer to William Shakespeare than the year 1900.

    https://www.english.upenn.edu/people/jed-esty

    Note that he is the Vartan Gregorian professor of English.

    Interesting, because I don’t recall Vic–president of the $3-bn Carnegie Corporation in NY–ever having anything to do with English at Penn.

    https://www.carnegie.org/about/trustees-and-staff/vartan-gregorian/

    • Replies: @CCZ
    @Olorin

    Not English, but other liberal arts disciplines. He was a U of Penn Provost on his way to being President, but not chosen, much to Penn students' displeasure. I remember the events.


    In 1980, then-president of the University of Pennsylvania Martin Meyerson announced his retirement, and there was speculation that Gregorian would succeed him. In fact, Gregorian had been offered the chancellorship at UC Berkeley, but had declined because he had been Provost at Penn for only two years and did not feel it was an appropriate time to leave his post. While there was no commitment on the part of the university to appoint him president, he was told he was a finalist and received assurances that he would be given the opportunity to withdraw his candidacy if the position was not going to be offered to him so that he would not be a liability to whoever was appointed president of the university. However, he was not given the opportunity to with draw his candidacy. In 1981, Gregorian resigned as Provost, and Sheldon Hackney was named President of the University of Pennsylvania that year. There was considerable speculation as to why he was not appointed president, in spite of his high approval on campus. "The story generally accepted," writes one Stanford alumnus in a 2005 interview with Gregorian, "is that some Philadelphia mandarins on Penn's board couldn’t tolerate a foreign name and accent—someone they saw as insufficiently polished and pedigreed—as president of their Ivy League institution."[5] Three years later, the Penn Board of Trustees endowed a professorship and several fellowships in Gregorian’s name, and also awarded him an honorary degree in recognition of his roles as the university’s founding Dean of Arts and Sciences and Provost.
    Wiki

     

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @CCZ
    @Olorin

    No need for Shakespeare when your career is built upon these interests (from his U of Penn page):

    19th-Century British Literature; 20th-Century British Literature; Postcolonial and Transnational Literatures; Global English; Modernism and Modernity; [and especially] Race, Empire, and Postcolonialism.

    Although Etsy mentions Shakespeare 5 times in his 289 page book entitled: A Shrinking Island: Modernism and National Culture in England.

    Looks like the Penn English Department has concluded that “Post-Colonial” authors are the way to go, time to move on from the literary works of empire and colonialism.

  • @whorefinder
    @I, Libertine


    law, falconry, sailing, the details of Italian geography, romance languages (don’t believe that “small Latin and less Greek” red herring from Jonson; Shakespeare wrote adaptions of stories not yet translated into English), music, ancient history, equestrian sports, etc etc.
     
    All of his knowledge could have easily been picked up by a bright man apprenticing in the theater and paying attention to the various plays already being put on and the intellectual topis of the day in London, and thereafter pumping a few experts in the field to fill in a gap or two if he wanted. His errors in geography, btw, are legendary, that's a bad example for you.

    It wasn't "expert" at all, except in the case that Shakespeare was thorough in his knowledge, like any high-level screenwriter today.

    He had a wealth of sources already available to anyone working in the theater. He honed them well, but it really isn't a surprise. Plenty of screenwriters today do it today to a far lesser extent, pumping out scripts regarding topics they aren't experts in or schooled in but they studied up on it.


    To say nothing of an intimate acquaintance with the Earl of Southampton.
     
    He had a patron. He wrote poems dedicated to the patron. Common for the time. Today's equivalent would be Matt Damon, shortly after Good Will Hunting hit it big, giving a speech or making a cameo at an event held by an influential rich dude in Hollywood.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    To answer the question how did Shakespeare know so much, it helps to look at a living playwright who had similar amounts of education, Tom Stoppard.

    Tom Stoppard has made himself seem like an expert on a multitude of topics in his plays and screenplays (and screenplay doctoring jobs). He is very open about his techniques for achieving a credible level of seeming expertise and about the limits on his actual expertise. His latest play, The Hard Question, for example, takes on a number of topics I’ve ginned up as well in the human sciences, and his acknowledgement page cites friends of people I know who helped him out. Reading it, it even struck me that one or two minor characters sound like they could be based on friends of mine.

    Stoppard uses his old journalist skills (he was a reporter in his late teens) to get up to speed on a topic by reading books and interviewing experts. I presume Shakespeare did something similar.

    Shakespeare was faster than Stoppard though.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes, I agree, Stoppard is a good example, but the anti-Shakespeareans can say that you can't compare modern day writers with Shakespeare, because we have so much more knowledge at our fingertips, more free time, and everyone is so much more literate, etc. Then again, I've used modern examples here too, so I'm failing my own test.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  • Blacks aren’t even interesting as radicals, and their “revolution” would go nowhere if it weren’t pushed and promoted by others. You don’t have to despise blacks or wish them relegated to inferior legal status to believe that it is a waste of time and resources to try and live together under equal laws, and by equal standards.

    • Replies: @guest
    @OilcanFloyd

    Their revolution went somewhere in Haiti. Look at the results!

  • @Sayless
    @Opinionator

    "What do you like about the tempest?"

    The dialogue.

    Replies: @Opinionator

    Will pay closer attention to it.

  • @neon2
    @SPMoore8

    The 1933-1945 films are often extremely good. Try Münchhausen (1943) or Opfergang (1944) or Kolberg (1945). These are highlights, but there are lots of enjoyable musicals and fantasy films to choose from, none of them straightforward propaganda.
    I'll admit though that they had nobody with the genius of an Eisenstein.

    Replies: @syonredux

    Münchhausen is very good. As a fantasy film, it’s comparable to Thief of Baghdad (1940) and The Wizard of Oz .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchhausen_(film)

  • @keypusher
    @I, Libertine

    But what do I know? I’m just a snob, like all anti-Stratfordians, right?

    Looney was a snob, and Oxfordianism is infected with snobbery at its root, but not all anti-Stratfordians are snobs. You're all just wrong, for lots of different reasons; why you came to the belief that Oxford was Shakespeare doesn't interest me particularly.

    You clearly haven't spent any time at Oxfraud yourself, or you wouldn't trot out all those tired Oxford 101 tropes about Shakespeare. (In the second return from Parnassus play, written when Shakespeare was probably at his most famous during his own lifetime, when "Kempe" of the Lord Chamberlain's Men, Shakespeare of Stratford's company, points out that "our fellow Shakespeare" didn't go to university but is a better playwright than anyone who did, who do you think he's talking about?) But I didn't even go into that. I pointed out that Oxford was (i) not very bright (ii) not very learned. Whenever you say "the real Shakespeare was so learned" you condemn your own candidate. I didn't even discuss through his poetry, which ranges from atrocious to merely mediocre.

    Rather than Shakespeare, spend some time on de Vere. The real one, not the Oxfordian fantasy. Read Monstrous Adversary, or just spend some time at Nelson's website (I gave you some links). Like just about everyone in Elizabethan England who knew the man, he has no use for Oxford, but that doesn't matter. He's gathered all Oxford's surviving work for you, so you can read it yourself.

    Once you've been cured of Oxfordianism, you can look at any other candidates that strike your fancy. Wherever you go, you'll come back to the same place: there is evidence for Shakespeare of Stratford; there is no evidence for anyone else.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    A big difference between Shakespeare’s time and Stoppard’s time is that there was very little journalism in Shakespeare’s time. Nobody doubts that Stoppard wrote Stoppard’s plays because there have been countless Stoppard profiles and interviews published in newspapers and magazines over the years. Even before the Internet, you could look these up in libraries. I own a book of interviews with Stoppard I bought around 1990.

    But there wasn’t much journalism at all in Shakespeare’s times. The first newspapers in English appear to have been started a few years after Shakespeare’s death.

    There were books in Shakespeare’s times and pamphlets. For example, Hamlet was printed in a bad version in 1603 and a better one in 1604 and in the First Folio in 1623.

    But what didn’t exist yet was the Celebrity Profile. Nobody back then had a job interviewing the leading lights of London’s vibrant pop culture scene. Also, there were no Theater Reviews. (In contrast, Stoppard did both as a young journalist in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Stoppard’s daily journalism from over half a century ago isn’t easily available, but you could look it up on microfilm in English libraries if you really wanted to.)

    What did exist were letters. No doubt people wrote letters mentioning Shakespeare, but, unfortunately, not many survive. Commenter Luke Lea is a direct descendant of Shakespeare’s sister, for example, and I’m sure he’d love to have inherited letters to his ancestress from her illustrious brother, but he didn’t. Somebody along the line threw them out or reused the paper to send other letters to other people or they burned up in a fire or got ruined in a flood or whatever.

  • @SPMoore8
    @syonredux

    I meant prose as opposed to drama: Shakespeare left none. It's true that a lot of the plays are in prose, but they are often line-breaked as though they were metrical. In fact, even your excerpt does that.

    Replies: @syonredux, @guest, @guest

    What is prose as opposed to drama? Those are not mutually exclusive. It’s actually very hard to find drama written in anything but prose lately.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @guest

    I don't know why this is a problem. Typically, when you consult the collected works of various Elizabethans and Jacobeans, they strictly demarcate between plays (regardless of meter or not) and "prose works" which would include romances, prefaces, occasional works, essays, disputatious works, travelogues, stories, and so on. Most of Shakespeare's contemporaries -- who also wrote plays, BTW -- wrote a lot of prose as I have described it. They also wrote poetry in various genres and did translations. Shakespeare did not write prose.

    Replies: @guest

  • @SPMoore8
    @syonredux

    I meant prose as opposed to drama: Shakespeare left none. It's true that a lot of the plays are in prose, but they are often line-breaked as though they were metrical. In fact, even your excerpt does that.

    Replies: @syonredux, @guest, @guest

    The versions of Shakespeare plays I own clearly set the prose parts differently than the meter.

  • @OilcanFloyd
    Blacks aren't even interesting as radicals, and their "revolution" would go nowhere if it weren't pushed and promoted by others. You don't have to despise blacks or wish them relegated to inferior legal status to believe that it is a waste of time and resources to try and live together under equal laws, and by equal standards.

    Replies: @guest

    Their revolution went somewhere in Haiti. Look at the results!

  • @Anonymous
    @whorefinder


    The German film industry was a true rival to Hollywood.
     
    In popular films? I don't mean to contradict, just asking.

    The only popular German film I'm familiar with is their Titanic movie. The actors seemed a little stiff. I don't recall any light-hearted German comedies or musicals even before WWII. If you have any links, please let me know. Just surprised to read the German's were giving us a run for our money in movies.

    Check out Nazi Titanic below.

    Before you do, check out this short vid on the film's history. It's kind of foul:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7_GAM549EQ

    History channel's version is longer:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrnRTL4bYsY&feature=youtu.be&list=PL8F082E27C88C555C

    And here's the movie, in German, with english captions. As I said, the actors are a little stiff:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFamcBHdwA

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @dfordoom

    The only popular German film I’m familiar with is their Titanic movie.

    The 1943 Münchhausen is excellent and great fun. Much better than Terry Gilliam’s later version.

  • @Olorin
    @Mr. Anon

    I've searched for a CV for Jed Esty with no luck. But from his list of courses taught at his Penn home page, I see no evidence he ever got closer to William Shakespeare than the year 1900.

    https://www.english.upenn.edu/people/jed-esty

    Note that he is the Vartan Gregorian professor of English.

    Interesting, because I don't recall Vic--president of the $3-bn Carnegie Corporation in NY--ever having anything to do with English at Penn.

    https://www.carnegie.org/about/trustees-and-staff/vartan-gregorian/

    Replies: @CCZ, @CCZ

    Not English, but other liberal arts disciplines. He was a U of Penn Provost on his way to being President, but not chosen, much to Penn students’ displeasure. I remember the events.

    In 1980, then-president of the University of Pennsylvania Martin Meyerson announced his retirement, and there was speculation that Gregorian would succeed him. In fact, Gregorian had been offered the chancellorship at UC Berkeley, but had declined because he had been Provost at Penn for only two years and did not feel it was an appropriate time to leave his post. While there was no commitment on the part of the university to appoint him president, he was told he was a finalist and received assurances that he would be given the opportunity to withdraw his candidacy if the position was not going to be offered to him so that he would not be a liability to whoever was appointed president of the university. However, he was not given the opportunity to with draw his candidacy. In 1981, Gregorian resigned as Provost, and Sheldon Hackney was named President of the University of Pennsylvania that year. There was considerable speculation as to why he was not appointed president, in spite of his high approval on campus. “The story generally accepted,” writes one Stanford alumnus in a 2005 interview with Gregorian, “is that some Philadelphia mandarins on Penn’s board couldn’t tolerate a foreign name and accent—someone they saw as insufficiently polished and pedigreed—as president of their Ivy League institution.”[5] Three years later, the Penn Board of Trustees endowed a professorship and several fellowships in Gregorian’s name, and also awarded him an honorary degree in recognition of his roles as the university’s founding Dean of Arts and Sciences and Provost.
    Wiki

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @CCZ


    In 1981, Gregorian resigned as Provost, and Sheldon Hackney was named President of the University of Pennsylvania that year.
     
    Well, the Liberal Arts college has ended up well and truly hackneyed, so if that was what they were after they got their man.

    Interesting background.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  • @SPMoore8
    @Desiderius

    There's a certain class of literature that really does aim to give you a better understanding of life, as it is lived by human beings. Bacon's essays fit this, so do Montaigne's, I think some of Seneca's moral essays also belong, so does Marcus Aurelius, some Schopenhauer (e.g., "The Wisdom of Life"), parts of William James' Psychology, and of course some holy books (e.g., Ecclesiastes). I'm sure there are many other books of this type but those are among the ones I keep returning to. And everyone should have a small library like that you remind you about keeping the faith, changing course, maintaining good habits and perspective, and so on.

    Replies: @David

    I’d add Dr. Johnson’s Rambler essays to your list. And if you’re of such a mind, his private devotionals.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @David

    Along with the Boswell.

    I've been reading Addison's Spectators, which remind me of Sailer.

    Replies: @David

    , @SPMoore8
    @David

    Thanks, I will look into it. I have long read Addison, Swift and Defoe for the laughs.

  • @Anon 2
    @whorefinder

    Polish nobility continued to be fluent in French
    until at least World War I, and probably beyond.
    Joseph Conrad (Korzeniowski) is a good example.
    He spoke French with no accent, and even though
    his novels are now part of the English canon and his
    wife was British, to the end of his days he spoke
    English with a thick foreign accent, as attested, for
    example, by Bertrand Russell. Russell and Conrad
    became close friends, perhaps because they both shared
    a tragic view of life. On the other hand, William James
    and Conrad spoke French when they got together to talk
    about literature. Conrad could only talk about the finer
    points of literature in French.

    France and Poland, being both Catholic, have had a great
    deal of affinity for each other. During the French Revolution
    thousands of French nobles ran to Poland (and not to Germany)
    to escape the Reign of Terror. Until WW I England was still
    to some extent regarded as a "nation of shopkeepers." I mean
    how could Victorian England compare with the flowering of La
    Belle Époque in France. England had few if any great composers,
    great painters or great sculptors (or great food!). Great science,
    personified by Darwin or Maxwell, just doesn't have the same cachet.
    English didn't really become important until the 1920s and even more
    so 1950s with the rise of the United States and the self-destruction of the
    European powers. I grew up in Europe so this is based on my own direct
    experience

    Replies: @syonredux, @dfordoom

    I mean how could Victorian England compare with the flowering of La
    Belle Époque in France. England had few if any great composers, great painters or great sculptors (or great food!).

    No great painters in Victorian England? The Pre-Raphaelites not good enough for you? Burne-Jones, who had a considerable influence on French painting?

    Was French music at that period really so much better than Elgar? Was Gustav Holst a nobody? Delius?

  • @Miro23
    @SPMoore8

    I can recommend Fritz Lang's "Dr Mabuse the Gambler". 4 1/2 hours (!) Some strong similarities to the present U.S.

    Product Description (from Amazon)


    Dr. Mabuse - criminal genius, psychologist, hypnotist, counterfeiter, card shark, master of disguise, thief of state secrets and ruler of a sinister empire founded on selfishness, chicanery and murder--gained his first screen incarnation in this monumental film by Fritz Lang, one of cinema's greatest directors. Made in 1922 and subtitled "A Picture of Our Time," "Dr. Mabuse, The Gambler" is indeed a snapshot of a historical moment when Germany was likened to Sodom and Gomorrah.
     
    https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Mabuse-Gambler-Rudolf-Klein-Rogge/dp/B000FS9FLW/ref=sr_1_2?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1481744673&sr=1-2&keywords=dr+mabuse+dvd

    Replies: @dfordoom

    I can recommend Fritz Lang’s “Dr Mabuse the Gambler”

    I can recommend all of Fritz Lang’s German movies. SPION (SPIES) is terrific.

  • @Olorin
    @Mr. Anon

    I've searched for a CV for Jed Esty with no luck. But from his list of courses taught at his Penn home page, I see no evidence he ever got closer to William Shakespeare than the year 1900.

    https://www.english.upenn.edu/people/jed-esty

    Note that he is the Vartan Gregorian professor of English.

    Interesting, because I don't recall Vic--president of the $3-bn Carnegie Corporation in NY--ever having anything to do with English at Penn.

    https://www.carnegie.org/about/trustees-and-staff/vartan-gregorian/

    Replies: @CCZ, @CCZ

    No need for Shakespeare when your career is built upon these interests (from his U of Penn page):

    19th-Century British Literature; 20th-Century British Literature; Postcolonial and Transnational Literatures; Global English; Modernism and Modernity; [and especially] Race, Empire, and Postcolonialism.

    Although Etsy mentions Shakespeare 5 times in his 289 page book entitled: A Shrinking Island: Modernism and National Culture in England.

    Looks like the Penn English Department has concluded that “Post-Colonial” authors are the way to go, time to move on from the literary works of empire and colonialism.

  • @Hubbub
    @Anonymous

    Cry Havoc! The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming...

    Replies: @Ivy

    When Alan Arkin was in the 1960s movie of that name, they marched along singing It’s a long way to Tipperary. The movie was a little bit of detente not long after the Cuban missile crisis, with a few humanizing elements. Of course, just reminiscing about such topics these days can get one branded as a Putin sympathizer.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060921/?ref_=nv_sr_1

  • @CCZ
    @Olorin

    Not English, but other liberal arts disciplines. He was a U of Penn Provost on his way to being President, but not chosen, much to Penn students' displeasure. I remember the events.


    In 1980, then-president of the University of Pennsylvania Martin Meyerson announced his retirement, and there was speculation that Gregorian would succeed him. In fact, Gregorian had been offered the chancellorship at UC Berkeley, but had declined because he had been Provost at Penn for only two years and did not feel it was an appropriate time to leave his post. While there was no commitment on the part of the university to appoint him president, he was told he was a finalist and received assurances that he would be given the opportunity to withdraw his candidacy if the position was not going to be offered to him so that he would not be a liability to whoever was appointed president of the university. However, he was not given the opportunity to with draw his candidacy. In 1981, Gregorian resigned as Provost, and Sheldon Hackney was named President of the University of Pennsylvania that year. There was considerable speculation as to why he was not appointed president, in spite of his high approval on campus. "The story generally accepted," writes one Stanford alumnus in a 2005 interview with Gregorian, "is that some Philadelphia mandarins on Penn's board couldn’t tolerate a foreign name and accent—someone they saw as insufficiently polished and pedigreed—as president of their Ivy League institution."[5] Three years later, the Penn Board of Trustees endowed a professorship and several fellowships in Gregorian’s name, and also awarded him an honorary degree in recognition of his roles as the university’s founding Dean of Arts and Sciences and Provost.
    Wiki

     

    Replies: @Desiderius

    In 1981, Gregorian resigned as Provost, and Sheldon Hackney was named President of the University of Pennsylvania that year.

    Well, the Liberal Arts college has ended up well and truly hackneyed, so if that was what they were after they got their man.

    Interesting background.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Desiderius

    Hackney's nickname: the Pope of Political Correctness.

    Reap what you sow, suckas.

  • @David
    @SPMoore8

    I'd add Dr. Johnson's Rambler essays to your list. And if you're of such a mind, his private devotionals.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @SPMoore8

    Along with the Boswell.

    I’ve been reading Addison’s Spectators, which remind me of Sailer.

    • Replies: @David
    @Desiderius

    Love Boswell but he's not an example of rectitude.

    I move between the Spectator, Boswell, Dr. Johnson, Montaigne, Scott, Shakespeare and Sailer without feeling so much as a bump in the pavement.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  • @SPMoore8
    @Dieter Kief

    I have a friend who consistently over the years has insisted that "Oh, what a tangled web we weave / when first we practice to deceive" was WS, no matter how many times I tell him it was Sir Walter Scott.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    Mundus vult decipi – –

    Apart from that – your Walter Scott quote, which I didn’t know, is beautiful – – and reminds me of Dylan’s “Tangled Up in Blue”.

    – “all the people he used to (ehem) quote, they’re an illusion to him now” – fits in quite nicely.

    The expression “in the mind’s eye” is beautiful too…and it strikes me as almost religious, to try to be able follow the traces of beauty back. – As in the phrase: Back to – – god – in Rilke’s poem The Alchemist…).

    (Much of literary science is in fact some kind of worldly cult-like act. But “psychologically speaking” (Patricia Barber, I Could eat Your Words on Verse) it’s more fun to encounter uncertainties – and suprises along the way, then coming back to the same old references time & time again.
    But this might depend. – A lot of this stuff depends on the spirit, in which it is done – and on the Alchemist in wordland too, smiling off quite odd.

  • @syonredux
    @Anon 2


    Until WW I England was still
    to some extent regarded as a “nation of shopkeepers.” I mean
    how could Victorian England compare with the flowering of La
    Belle Époque in France. England had few if any great composers,
    great painters or great sculptors (or great food!). Great science,
    personified by Darwin or Maxwell, just doesn’t have the same cachet.
    English didn’t really become important until the 1920s and even more
    so 1950s with the rise of the United States and the self-destruction of the
    European powers.
     
    You're simply being silly. British Lit was quite influential during the 19th century (Byron, Scott, Dickens, etc). Savile Row set the standards for male sartorial elegance. Even Anglophobic France had its Anglophiles:

    The Jockey Club was originally organized as the "Society for the Encouragement of the Improvement of Horse Breeding in France," to provide a single authority for horse racing in the nation, beginning at Chantilly in 1834. It swiftly became the center for the most sportifs gentlemen of tout-Paris. At the same time, when aristocrats and men of the haute bourgeoisie still formed the governing class, its Anglo-Gallic membership could not fail to give it some political colour: Napoleon III, who had passed some early exile in England, asserted that he had learned to govern an empire through "his intercourse with the calm, self-possessed men of the English turf".
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jockey-Club_de_Paris

    Replies: @Anon 2

    I was referring specifically to the formal study of
    the English language by the Continentals. English
    didn’t become a popular part of the high school curriculum
    until after WW I, or perhaps even after WW II, and in the countries
    of the Soviet Bloc not until the ’90s (Russian was forcibly taught
    in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc against the wishes of the
    population while Russian children studied German or English).
    To give a more recent example, Albert Einstein in the 1920s was
    frequently invited to give lectures in France and western Switzerland,
    and he was able to deliver them in French. His French was grammatically
    credible and he spoke it with only a slight German accent whereas his spoken
    English was heavily accented and high pitched. To give Einstein proper credit,
    he was much older when he came to the U.S.

    Of course, some members of the Continental elites fancied the English even
    in the 18th century. For example, Voltaire since he was so enamored of Newtonian
    physics and mechanistic philosophy

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    @Anon 2

    And speaking of the command of foreign languages,
    both Obama and Trump are monolingual (or semi-
    bilingual, as some wag once put it). How is it even possible
    to have an Ivy League degree without mastering at least
    one foreign language? Idiocracy indeed

    , @Desiderius
    @Anon 2


    I was referring specifically to the formal study of
    the English language by the Continentals.
     
    The subject English Literature as now taught by the likes of the illustrious Prof. Etsy is properly the descendent of philology (Tolkien's discipline) rather than the study of the English language per se.

    Replies: @Anon 2

  • @guest
    @SPMoore8

    What is prose as opposed to drama? Those are not mutually exclusive. It's actually very hard to find drama written in anything but prose lately.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    I don’t know why this is a problem. Typically, when you consult the collected works of various Elizabethans and Jacobeans, they strictly demarcate between plays (regardless of meter or not) and “prose works” which would include romances, prefaces, occasional works, essays, disputatious works, travelogues, stories, and so on. Most of Shakespeare’s contemporaries — who also wrote plays, BTW — wrote a lot of prose as I have described it. They also wrote poetry in various genres and did translations. Shakespeare did not write prose.

    • Replies: @guest
    @SPMoore8

    I was not aware of that convention. It makes sense, because Shakespeare mostly wrote in verse, but his plays do contain prose. Very good prose, in fact. I don't think in terms of drama versus prose, but I suppose in Shakespeare's case he's writing poetic drama for the most part, so it makes sense.

  • @guest
    @keypusher

    I was shocked how much I liked Webster, and how easy it was to read. I've read at least three Marlowes and been entertained. The Changeling by I can't remember who is great.

    How do things like Elizabethan theater happen?

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    “Changeling” was Middleton and Rowley, technically not Elizabethan (she died in 1603) but Jacobean, that is, under King James. Then the period from James’ death (1624, I think) is called “Carolingian” after King Charles. Then the theaters were closed in 1642 when Charles lost his head; for 20 years.

    Elizabethan drama happened for the same reason that Elizabethan literature happened; it was promoted by wealthy guys like Oxford, there were a lot of highly educated and prolific writers in London looking to make a buck, there was an emerging audience of literate Britons looking for stuff to read, etc. etc. I also think that the emergence of such things as standardized spelling and shift in printface from the godawful Gothic script to a font that was much more legible.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    @SPMoore8

    Thinking about Gothic script reminded me of the Illuminated Manuscripts collection at the Getty Center. If you are in Los Angeles, a trip to the Getty is worthwhile, and squeeze in the Getty Villa in Malibu to see the antiquities, too. Both museums provide space to observe and reflect on objects and ideas of some permanence and value, lacking in recent activities at Penn.

    , @guest
    @SPMoore8

    That's all necessary, but insufficient. Other cities at different times have similar ingredients and produce crap. There's a magical quality at work, like with ancient Athens or Renaissance Italy.

    Or maybe we just like Shakespeare so much, and so much attention is paid to the era, that we exaggerate the importance of marginal figures. I can see this at work with Modern Art, for instance. You have good conmen and self-promoters like Picasso, then a bunch of interchangeable parts around him, whose names people are compelled to memorize for no good reason.

    But no. Marlowe and Webster are great. Bacon, Spenser, Sidney, Jonson, and others are worth reading.

  • @David
    @SPMoore8

    I'd add Dr. Johnson's Rambler essays to your list. And if you're of such a mind, his private devotionals.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @SPMoore8

    Thanks, I will look into it. I have long read Addison, Swift and Defoe for the laughs.

  • @SPMoore8
    @guest

    "Changeling" was Middleton and Rowley, technically not Elizabethan (she died in 1603) but Jacobean, that is, under King James. Then the period from James' death (1624, I think) is called "Carolingian" after King Charles. Then the theaters were closed in 1642 when Charles lost his head; for 20 years.

    Elizabethan drama happened for the same reason that Elizabethan literature happened; it was promoted by wealthy guys like Oxford, there were a lot of highly educated and prolific writers in London looking to make a buck, there was an emerging audience of literate Britons looking for stuff to read, etc. etc. I also think that the emergence of such things as standardized spelling and shift in printface from the godawful Gothic script to a font that was much more legible.

    Replies: @Ivy, @guest

    Thinking about Gothic script reminded me of the Illuminated Manuscripts collection at the Getty Center. If you are in Los Angeles, a trip to the Getty is worthwhile, and squeeze in the Getty Villa in Malibu to see the antiquities, too. Both museums provide space to observe and reflect on objects and ideas of some permanence and value, lacking in recent activities at Penn.

  • @Desiderius
    @David

    Along with the Boswell.

    I've been reading Addison's Spectators, which remind me of Sailer.

    Replies: @David

    Love Boswell but he’s not an example of rectitude.

    I move between the Spectator, Boswell, Dr. Johnson, Montaigne, Scott, Shakespeare and Sailer without feeling so much as a bump in the pavement.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @David


    Love Boswell but he’s not an example of rectitude.
     
    Negative examples can be as edifying as positive ones.
  • @Desiderius
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    Interesting — would you mind saying a bit more about what you’re seeing on the ground?
     
    I see it all around me, but it can also be seen by what's not there in our elite (sic) institutions, particularity the Ivy League.

    They haven't been getting the best men for a good long while, and even the babe drain shows signs of slowing. As usual, minorities and foreigners are late to the party, so they're still sending their best and their brightest expecting a world-class education only to find the likes of Prof. Etsy, who , from the looks of him and his reaction to this little kerfluffle is about a 2 on the Harf-Mattis scale..

    No wonder they're pissed.

    You don't wind up with a turd in your punchbowl because someone prefers the taste of turd to punch; it's there to send a message. Make no mistake - Audre Lorde is a turd. The message is that they're not getting the education they were promised. And they're not.

    Unearned status is a poor substitute for earned.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Thanks for this reply.

    You’re right about this message not yet being heard outside the USA. For example, just this week Hong Kong’s main English-language newspaper, the South China Morning Post, had a frantic article moaning about how a lower percentage of HK applicants were being admitted to Oxford and Cambridge in comparison with Singapore and the mainland.

    It turns out, for example, that 12.96% of mainland applicants were admitted to Oxford this year, while a paltry, crushingly-deficient 12.7% of Hong Kong applicants got in! Oh, the humanity!!! Of course, no other factors (e.g. number of applicants as a percentage of the eligible cohort, etc.) were taken into account.

    It’s hard to communicate how hysterical the higher ed scene is over here.

  • @Anon 2
    @syonredux

    I was referring specifically to the formal study of
    the English language by the Continentals. English
    didn't become a popular part of the high school curriculum
    until after WW I, or perhaps even after WW II, and in the countries
    of the Soviet Bloc not until the '90s (Russian was forcibly taught
    in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc against the wishes of the
    population while Russian children studied German or English).
    To give a more recent example, Albert Einstein in the 1920s was
    frequently invited to give lectures in France and western Switzerland,
    and he was able to deliver them in French. His French was grammatically
    credible and he spoke it with only a slight German accent whereas his spoken
    English was heavily accented and high pitched. To give Einstein proper credit,
    he was much older when he came to the U.S.

    Of course, some members of the Continental elites fancied the English even
    in the 18th century. For example, Voltaire since he was so enamored of Newtonian
    physics and mechanistic philosophy

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Desiderius

    And speaking of the command of foreign languages,
    both Obama and Trump are monolingual (or semi-
    bilingual, as some wag once put it). How is it even possible
    to have an Ivy League degree without mastering at least
    one foreign language? Idiocracy indeed

  • @David
    @Desiderius

    Love Boswell but he's not an example of rectitude.

    I move between the Spectator, Boswell, Dr. Johnson, Montaigne, Scott, Shakespeare and Sailer without feeling so much as a bump in the pavement.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Love Boswell but he’s not an example of rectitude.

    Negative examples can be as edifying as positive ones.

  • @Desiderius
    @CCZ


    In 1981, Gregorian resigned as Provost, and Sheldon Hackney was named President of the University of Pennsylvania that year.
     
    Well, the Liberal Arts college has ended up well and truly hackneyed, so if that was what they were after they got their man.

    Interesting background.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Hackney’s nickname: the Pope of Political Correctness.

    Reap what you sow, suckas.

  • @Anon 2
    @syonredux

    I was referring specifically to the formal study of
    the English language by the Continentals. English
    didn't become a popular part of the high school curriculum
    until after WW I, or perhaps even after WW II, and in the countries
    of the Soviet Bloc not until the '90s (Russian was forcibly taught
    in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc against the wishes of the
    population while Russian children studied German or English).
    To give a more recent example, Albert Einstein in the 1920s was
    frequently invited to give lectures in France and western Switzerland,
    and he was able to deliver them in French. His French was grammatically
    credible and he spoke it with only a slight German accent whereas his spoken
    English was heavily accented and high pitched. To give Einstein proper credit,
    he was much older when he came to the U.S.

    Of course, some members of the Continental elites fancied the English even
    in the 18th century. For example, Voltaire since he was so enamored of Newtonian
    physics and mechanistic philosophy

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Desiderius

    I was referring specifically to the formal study of
    the English language by the Continentals.

    The subject English Literature as now taught by the likes of the illustrious Prof. Etsy is properly the descendent of philology (Tolkien’s discipline) rather than the study of the English language per se.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    @Desiderius

    Even more specifically, I was referring to the
    study of English in secondary and foreign
    language schools on the Continent. Compared
    to French, English is a newcomer. Partly because
    girls and women everywhere just love love the French
    language, culture, cuisine, couture, luxury brands, movies
    (at least until recently) ... English is a staccato language,
    it's very efficient and is ideal for writing pop songs but
    French (and Italian) FLOW beautifully (which does make
    them harder to understand). Remember how Bill Murray is
    trying to seduce Andie MacDowell in Groundhog Day by reciting
    French poetry? That's what I'm talking about. I visit France frequently
    and all those female tourists in various states of euphoria are hard to
    miss (granted, not the Brits so much, and less after the recent unfortunate
    events), esp. if you show them Hemingway's and Henry Miller's favorite
    drinking establishments and recite Rimbaud's La bateau ivre while you're at it

    Replies: @Ivy

  • @syonredux
    @Corvinus


    I am familiar with the version of truth of the extreme left. But, in reality, moderates and liberals do not hold that position.
     
    Dunno, dear fellow. All the "liberals" that I know back down when confronted with their ancestral White guilt. Especially when they are confronted on the issue by Blacks.

    I say to the SJW’s “We. Don’t. Care”.
     
    Which merely confirms your guilt in the eyes of the righteous....

    White privilege, similar to race realism, are conjured up terms designed by radicals to promote a particular agenda.
     
    Yes, dear fellow. It's the POC-SJW agenda. You know, the people who control TV, film, publishing, the universities, .....

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Dunno, dear fellow. All the “liberals” that I know back down when confronted with their ancestral White guilt. Especially when they are confronted on the issue by Blacks.”

    The liberals I know are high T men who enjoy taking umbrage to those radical who employ shaming tactics.

    “Which merely confirms your guilt in the eyes of the righteous….”

    No, it confirms that We. Don’t. Care. That label means nothing to us.

    “Yes, dear fellow. It’s the POC-SJW agenda.”

    Cultural Marxism is a hoax. The agenda is for “good whites” to root out moral corruption in our cultural outlets. It’s a scam of epic proportions.

  • @Anonymous
    I don't know if Ron Unz reads comments here, but unz.com and unz.com/isteve open in 'Mobile.' I'm using a laptop, but it's not really mobile. How can I see unz.com stuff in the normal window? I'm using Windows 10 and Chrome browser. Any help would be appreciated.

    Btw, your Mobile format is not very good. If I gotta be in mobile, I don't want a long-ass list of Unz contributors, I wanna see Sailer's posts before all that jazz.

    Thankya kindly.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    I don’t know if Ron Unz reads comments here, but unz.com and unz.com/isteve open in ‘Mobile.’ I’m using a laptop, but it’s not really mobile. How can I see unz.com stuff in the normal window? I’m using Windows 10 and Chrome browser. Any help would be appreciated.

    Btw, your Mobile format is not very good. If I gotta be in mobile, I don’t want a long-ass list of Unz contributors, I wanna see Sailer’s posts before all that jazz.

    Normally I don’t, but you got lucky this time.

    Your question is odd. The Mobile version does *not* display the list of contributors; that’s one of the main distinctions from the Desktop version.

    But switching from the Detect/Default mode to either Mobile or Desktop is easy. Click “Menu” at the top control bar. Select “User Settings”. Change the Version field to “Desktop” or “Mobile”, then press Save/Reload.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    To answer the question how did Shakespeare know so much, it helps to look at a living playwright who had similar amounts of education, Tom Stoppard.

    Tom Stoppard has made himself seem like an expert on a multitude of topics in his plays and screenplays (and screenplay doctoring jobs). He is very open about his techniques for achieving a credible level of seeming expertise and about the limits on his actual expertise. His latest play, The Hard Question, for example, takes on a number of topics I've ginned up as well in the human sciences, and his acknowledgement page cites friends of people I know who helped him out. Reading it, it even struck me that one or two minor characters sound like they could be based on friends of mine.

    Stoppard uses his old journalist skills (he was a reporter in his late teens) to get up to speed on a topic by reading books and interviewing experts. I presume Shakespeare did something similar.

    Shakespeare was faster than Stoppard though.

    Replies: @whorefinder

    Yes, I agree, Stoppard is a good example, but the anti-Shakespeareans can say that you can’t compare modern day writers with Shakespeare, because we have so much more knowledge at our fingertips, more free time, and everyone is so much more literate, etc. Then again, I’ve used modern examples here too, so I’m failing my own test.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    I presume that scholars have made rough estimates of how many books Shakespeare read in his lifetime. It would be interesting to compare it to an estimate of how many books Stoppard (a highly bookish man even for author, who has a custom built bookshelf/suitcase for traveling) read by the same age. I would imagine Stoppard had access to far more books, while Shakespeare probably read books over again more often than Stoppard. On the other hand, Stoppard had access to far more newspapers and magazines and had TV and movies to cut into his book-reading time, while a higher percentage of Shakespeare's reading was devoted to books. On the other hand, Shakespeare gives the impression of spending more time in taverns talking than Stoppard does.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @keypusher, @Anonymous

  • @Old Palo Altan
    @MC

    Agreed.
    Berkeley was always as socially acceptable as Stanford; only the insecure thought otherwise. Nothing like that exists in New England, although the South and the Middle West have notable examples. I chose Berkeley because having grown up in Palo Alto I knew Stanford like the back of my hand, and the last thing I wanted was to go home every day after class. I actually went as a freshman to the most expensive four year college in America (at the time) which was indeed on the East Coast. I returned to California, and specifically to Berkeley, because I wanted a better library. There I educated myself far more thoroughly (and enjoyably) than in any but the rarest of my actual courses, all of which, as it happened, were taught either by Easterners or Europeans.

    Replies: @Prof. Woland

    Go Bears!

  • @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes, I agree, Stoppard is a good example, but the anti-Shakespeareans can say that you can't compare modern day writers with Shakespeare, because we have so much more knowledge at our fingertips, more free time, and everyone is so much more literate, etc. Then again, I've used modern examples here too, so I'm failing my own test.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I presume that scholars have made rough estimates of how many books Shakespeare read in his lifetime. It would be interesting to compare it to an estimate of how many books Stoppard (a highly bookish man even for author, who has a custom built bookshelf/suitcase for traveling) read by the same age. I would imagine Stoppard had access to far more books, while Shakespeare probably read books over again more often than Stoppard. On the other hand, Stoppard had access to far more newspapers and magazines and had TV and movies to cut into his book-reading time, while a higher percentage of Shakespeare’s reading was devoted to books. On the other hand, Shakespeare gives the impression of spending more time in taverns talking than Stoppard does.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    There's also the issue of memory.

    Educated boys (such as Shakespeare would have been) were trained in the art of memory---various memory techniques (such as the Memory Palace) to enable them to remember and repeat vast amounts of information. Boys in London were sent to St. Paul's to listen to the ministers preach on Sundays, and on Monday they had to write or recite the minister's sermon in full (which could last for a few hours). Lawyers and churchmen were expected to speak without notes or without reading from books. etc.

    Actors, too, were taught memory techniques, and often the very construction of theaters were made to aide them. Columns in the back of theaters would be painted different colors, and, as an actor would repeat his lines and turn to different parts of the audience, he would see the color of the column he'd just turned to, and, due to a memory technique, that color would jog his memory about which line he was supposed to say at that moment.

    These techniques were useful since pens and paper were not abundant and recording devices didn't exist.

    So an educated school boy or trained actor watching a performance would be able to remember a lot more than we would do today, especially if concentrating on it. And of course plays would be repeated, so you could go see them a bunch of times. So even if young Shakespeare or Marlowe or Johnson weren't reading the texts of the plays or books, if they consciously set out to remember certain speeches in plays, they could do it, even if it was many plays at many different times.

    In other words, Shakespeare's reading was not the only place he could have picked up a lot of his knowledge.

    Replies: @Ivy

    , @Desiderius
    @Steve Sailer


    Stoppard had access to far more newspapers and magazines and had TV and movies
     
    Plays in Shakespeare's day served many of the purposes those media serve in our own, and of course Shakespeare was an actor.
    , @keypusher
    @Steve Sailer

    Geoffrey Bullough wrote an eight-volume survey of Shakespeare's sources. He came up with a list of 70 more or less necessary works (http://www.dispositio.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Sources.pdf) plus 30 or possible additional sources (http://www.dispositio.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Possible-Sources.pdf). He omits obvious ones like the Bible and the Book of Common Prayer. Looking at the lists, we're not talking about recondite stuff for London circa 1600. Of course that says nothing about what Shakespeare may have read, only what we see reflected in his plays -- which doesn't necessary imply that he actually read the book in question. England in Shakespeare's day was a far more oral culture, and people's memories were far more developed than now (as several of your posters have pointed out already). So it isn't as if the only way he could learn what was in a book was to buy it and read it. This also goes for books in foreign languages, even when there wasn't a printed translation available. Samuel Johnson, showing common sense some modern scholars should envy, pointed out that Shakespeare easily could have found someone to write the French dialogue in Henry V, if he couldn't do it himself.

    Stoppard had access to far more books, while Shakespeare probably read books over again more often than Stoppard. Yes, I think this can be an advantage for pre-2oth century writers. Lincoln wasn't widely read, but he really knew his Bible and Shakespeare, and it shows. Shakespeare used the same sources over and over: North’s translation of Plutarch, Ovid’s Metamorphoses (which was available in English, but a smart grammar-school boy could have handled Ovid in Latin without difficulty), Montemayor’s Diana Enamorada (almost certainly in translation), and Holinshed’s and Hall’s chronicle histories.

    Incidentally, if anyone is still reading this thread, Johnson writes in his Preface that

    The stories, which we now find only in remoter authours, were in his time accessible and familliar. The fable of “As You Like It”, which is supposed to be copied from Chaucer’s Gamelyn, was a little pamphlet of those times; and old Mr. Cibber remembered the tale of Hamlet in plain English prose, which the criticks have now to seek in Saxo Grammaticus.

    Anyone know what old Mr. Cibber was remembering?

    , @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve,

    Did you entertain the idea that Shakespeare could have been multiple writers? Or not?

    Or did you say many of the elegant touches in his work may have been additions by actors and others over the years, during his life and afterward?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    I presume that scholars have made rough estimates of how many books Shakespeare read in his lifetime. It would be interesting to compare it to an estimate of how many books Stoppard (a highly bookish man even for author, who has a custom built bookshelf/suitcase for traveling) read by the same age. I would imagine Stoppard had access to far more books, while Shakespeare probably read books over again more often than Stoppard. On the other hand, Stoppard had access to far more newspapers and magazines and had TV and movies to cut into his book-reading time, while a higher percentage of Shakespeare's reading was devoted to books. On the other hand, Shakespeare gives the impression of spending more time in taverns talking than Stoppard does.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @keypusher, @Anonymous

    There’s also the issue of memory.

    Educated boys (such as Shakespeare would have been) were trained in the art of memory—various memory techniques (such as the Memory Palace) to enable them to remember and repeat vast amounts of information. Boys in London were sent to St. Paul’s to listen to the ministers preach on Sundays, and on Monday they had to write or recite the minister’s sermon in full (which could last for a few hours). Lawyers and churchmen were expected to speak without notes or without reading from books. etc.

    Actors, too, were taught memory techniques, and often the very construction of theaters were made to aide them. Columns in the back of theaters would be painted different colors, and, as an actor would repeat his lines and turn to different parts of the audience, he would see the color of the column he’d just turned to, and, due to a memory technique, that color would jog his memory about which line he was supposed to say at that moment.

    These techniques were useful since pens and paper were not abundant and recording devices didn’t exist.

    So an educated school boy or trained actor watching a performance would be able to remember a lot more than we would do today, especially if concentrating on it. And of course plays would be repeated, so you could go see them a bunch of times. So even if young Shakespeare or Marlowe or Johnson weren’t reading the texts of the plays or books, if they consciously set out to remember certain speeches in plays, they could do it, even if it was many plays at many different times.

    In other words, Shakespeare’s reading was not the only place he could have picked up a lot of his knowledge.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    @whorefinder

    Their descendants may have become taxi drivers, where learning The Knowledge about London's streets and routes was part of the training. With the advent of GPS and other information at one's fingertips, how likely is it that memory training will be forgotten?

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    I presume that scholars have made rough estimates of how many books Shakespeare read in his lifetime. It would be interesting to compare it to an estimate of how many books Stoppard (a highly bookish man even for author, who has a custom built bookshelf/suitcase for traveling) read by the same age. I would imagine Stoppard had access to far more books, while Shakespeare probably read books over again more often than Stoppard. On the other hand, Stoppard had access to far more newspapers and magazines and had TV and movies to cut into his book-reading time, while a higher percentage of Shakespeare's reading was devoted to books. On the other hand, Shakespeare gives the impression of spending more time in taverns talking than Stoppard does.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @keypusher, @Anonymous

    Stoppard had access to far more newspapers and magazines and had TV and movies

    Plays in Shakespeare’s day served many of the purposes those media serve in our own, and of course Shakespeare was an actor.

  • @Desiderius
    @Anon 2


    I was referring specifically to the formal study of
    the English language by the Continentals.
     
    The subject English Literature as now taught by the likes of the illustrious Prof. Etsy is properly the descendent of philology (Tolkien's discipline) rather than the study of the English language per se.

    Replies: @Anon 2

    Even more specifically, I was referring to the
    study of English in secondary and foreign
    language schools on the Continent. Compared
    to French, English is a newcomer. Partly because
    girls and women everywhere just love love the French
    language, culture, cuisine, couture, luxury brands, movies
    (at least until recently) … English is a staccato language,
    it’s very efficient and is ideal for writing pop songs but
    French (and Italian) FLOW beautifully (which does make
    them harder to understand). Remember how Bill Murray is
    trying to seduce Andie MacDowell in Groundhog Day by reciting
    French poetry? That’s what I’m talking about. I visit France frequently
    and all those female tourists in various states of euphoria are hard to
    miss (granted, not the Brits so much, and less after the recent unfortunate
    events), esp. if you show them Hemingway’s and Henry Miller’s favorite
    drinking establishments and recite Rimbaud’s La bateau ivre while you’re at it

    • Replies: @Ivy
    @Anon 2

    One truism about languages and European education was that German Abitur grads could out-debate their American counterparts about philosophy, in English. There is a variation on that for French Bac grads.

  • @SPMoore8
    @guest

    I don't know why this is a problem. Typically, when you consult the collected works of various Elizabethans and Jacobeans, they strictly demarcate between plays (regardless of meter or not) and "prose works" which would include romances, prefaces, occasional works, essays, disputatious works, travelogues, stories, and so on. Most of Shakespeare's contemporaries -- who also wrote plays, BTW -- wrote a lot of prose as I have described it. They also wrote poetry in various genres and did translations. Shakespeare did not write prose.

    Replies: @guest

    I was not aware of that convention. It makes sense, because Shakespeare mostly wrote in verse, but his plays do contain prose. Very good prose, in fact. I don’t think in terms of drama versus prose, but I suppose in Shakespeare’s case he’s writing poetic drama for the most part, so it makes sense.

  • @SPMoore8
    @guest

    "Changeling" was Middleton and Rowley, technically not Elizabethan (she died in 1603) but Jacobean, that is, under King James. Then the period from James' death (1624, I think) is called "Carolingian" after King Charles. Then the theaters were closed in 1642 when Charles lost his head; for 20 years.

    Elizabethan drama happened for the same reason that Elizabethan literature happened; it was promoted by wealthy guys like Oxford, there were a lot of highly educated and prolific writers in London looking to make a buck, there was an emerging audience of literate Britons looking for stuff to read, etc. etc. I also think that the emergence of such things as standardized spelling and shift in printface from the godawful Gothic script to a font that was much more legible.

    Replies: @Ivy, @guest

    That’s all necessary, but insufficient. Other cities at different times have similar ingredients and produce crap. There’s a magical quality at work, like with ancient Athens or Renaissance Italy.

    Or maybe we just like Shakespeare so much, and so much attention is paid to the era, that we exaggerate the importance of marginal figures. I can see this at work with Modern Art, for instance. You have good conmen and self-promoters like Picasso, then a bunch of interchangeable parts around him, whose names people are compelled to memorize for no good reason.

    But no. Marlowe and Webster are great. Bacon, Spenser, Sidney, Jonson, and others are worth reading.

  • There’s a magical quality at work, like with ancient Athens or Renaissance Italy.

    It wasn’t all magic. You had a monarch willing to (energetically) keep the SJWs (Puritan and Jesuit) in check.

    • Replies: @benjaminl
    @Desiderius

    LOL. I would love to read a considered comparison/contrasts of the Puritans and Jesuits in terms of the associated psychological types who are attracted to each movement.

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    I presume that scholars have made rough estimates of how many books Shakespeare read in his lifetime. It would be interesting to compare it to an estimate of how many books Stoppard (a highly bookish man even for author, who has a custom built bookshelf/suitcase for traveling) read by the same age. I would imagine Stoppard had access to far more books, while Shakespeare probably read books over again more often than Stoppard. On the other hand, Stoppard had access to far more newspapers and magazines and had TV and movies to cut into his book-reading time, while a higher percentage of Shakespeare's reading was devoted to books. On the other hand, Shakespeare gives the impression of spending more time in taverns talking than Stoppard does.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @keypusher, @Anonymous

    Geoffrey Bullough wrote an eight-volume survey of Shakespeare’s sources. He came up with a list of 70 more or less necessary works (http://www.dispositio.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Sources.pdf) plus 30 or possible additional sources (http://www.dispositio.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Possible-Sources.pdf). He omits obvious ones like the Bible and the Book of Common Prayer. Looking at the lists, we’re not talking about recondite stuff for London circa 1600. Of course that says nothing about what Shakespeare may have read, only what we see reflected in his plays — which doesn’t necessary imply that he actually read the book in question. England in Shakespeare’s day was a far more oral culture, and people’s memories were far more developed than now (as several of your posters have pointed out already). So it isn’t as if the only way he could learn what was in a book was to buy it and read it. This also goes for books in foreign languages, even when there wasn’t a printed translation available. Samuel Johnson, showing common sense some modern scholars should envy, pointed out that Shakespeare easily could have found someone to write the French dialogue in Henry V, if he couldn’t do it himself.

    Stoppard had access to far more books, while Shakespeare probably read books over again more often than Stoppard. Yes, I think this can be an advantage for pre-2oth century writers. Lincoln wasn’t widely read, but he really knew his Bible and Shakespeare, and it shows. Shakespeare used the same sources over and over: North’s translation of Plutarch, Ovid’s Metamorphoses (which was available in English, but a smart grammar-school boy could have handled Ovid in Latin without difficulty), Montemayor’s Diana Enamorada (almost certainly in translation), and Holinshed’s and Hall’s chronicle histories.

    Incidentally, if anyone is still reading this thread, Johnson writes in his Preface that

    The stories, which we now find only in remoter authours, were in his time accessible and familliar. The fable of “As You Like It”, which is supposed to be copied from Chaucer’s Gamelyn, was a little pamphlet of those times; and old Mr. Cibber remembered the tale of Hamlet in plain English prose, which the criticks have now to seek in Saxo Grammaticus.

    Anyone know what old Mr. Cibber was remembering?

  • @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    I presume that scholars have made rough estimates of how many books Shakespeare read in his lifetime. It would be interesting to compare it to an estimate of how many books Stoppard (a highly bookish man even for author, who has a custom built bookshelf/suitcase for traveling) read by the same age. I would imagine Stoppard had access to far more books, while Shakespeare probably read books over again more often than Stoppard. On the other hand, Stoppard had access to far more newspapers and magazines and had TV and movies to cut into his book-reading time, while a higher percentage of Shakespeare's reading was devoted to books. On the other hand, Shakespeare gives the impression of spending more time in taverns talking than Stoppard does.

    Replies: @whorefinder, @Desiderius, @keypusher, @Anonymous

    Steve,

    Did you entertain the idea that Shakespeare could have been multiple writers? Or not?

    Or did you say many of the elegant touches in his work may have been additions by actors and others over the years, during his life and afterward?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Maybe Shakespeare's actors helped him punch up their lines in rehearsals? I've seldom seen that idea explored. Today we have comedy movies that are collaboratively semi-improvisational, such as Rogen's This Is the End where a bunch of comedians play themselves during the apocalypse.

    Those feel quite different than Shakespeare's plays, however.

    When my wife starred in a dinner theater production of a Neil Simon play, I rewrote a half dozen jokes for her that had gotten stale in the 15 years since Simon had written it.

    Drama tends to be less improvisational than comedy, though. Tragedy often works best when it seems fated, inevitable, so you can't have the actors riffing off the top of their heads as much.

    Still, take that quintessence of dust speech from Hamlet. It's extremely actorly, so I'd hardly be surprised if Richard Burbage, Shakespeare's leading man, didn't give at least negative input in terms of what he found awkward in the first draft to be awkward to say.

    By the way, there are three different printed versions of Hamlet. The "bad" first version is usually assumed to be pirated by somebody in the audience writing down what he remembered. I don't see too often the theory that maybe that really was the initial version that got tried out and the later versions really were later versions after the company had worked the bugs out.

    Stoppard plays are printed in an earlier English version and a later American version. I can vaguely remember seeing one play in America after I had read the English version and, wow, the American version was a lot better, because Stoppard had fixed problems in his original version.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @Desiderius, @Anonymous

  • @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    There's also the issue of memory.

    Educated boys (such as Shakespeare would have been) were trained in the art of memory---various memory techniques (such as the Memory Palace) to enable them to remember and repeat vast amounts of information. Boys in London were sent to St. Paul's to listen to the ministers preach on Sundays, and on Monday they had to write or recite the minister's sermon in full (which could last for a few hours). Lawyers and churchmen were expected to speak without notes or without reading from books. etc.

    Actors, too, were taught memory techniques, and often the very construction of theaters were made to aide them. Columns in the back of theaters would be painted different colors, and, as an actor would repeat his lines and turn to different parts of the audience, he would see the color of the column he'd just turned to, and, due to a memory technique, that color would jog his memory about which line he was supposed to say at that moment.

    These techniques were useful since pens and paper were not abundant and recording devices didn't exist.

    So an educated school boy or trained actor watching a performance would be able to remember a lot more than we would do today, especially if concentrating on it. And of course plays would be repeated, so you could go see them a bunch of times. So even if young Shakespeare or Marlowe or Johnson weren't reading the texts of the plays or books, if they consciously set out to remember certain speeches in plays, they could do it, even if it was many plays at many different times.

    In other words, Shakespeare's reading was not the only place he could have picked up a lot of his knowledge.

    Replies: @Ivy

    Their descendants may have become taxi drivers, where learning The Knowledge about London’s streets and routes was part of the training. With the advent of GPS and other information at one’s fingertips, how likely is it that memory training will be forgotten?

  • @Anon 2
    @Desiderius

    Even more specifically, I was referring to the
    study of English in secondary and foreign
    language schools on the Continent. Compared
    to French, English is a newcomer. Partly because
    girls and women everywhere just love love the French
    language, culture, cuisine, couture, luxury brands, movies
    (at least until recently) ... English is a staccato language,
    it's very efficient and is ideal for writing pop songs but
    French (and Italian) FLOW beautifully (which does make
    them harder to understand). Remember how Bill Murray is
    trying to seduce Andie MacDowell in Groundhog Day by reciting
    French poetry? That's what I'm talking about. I visit France frequently
    and all those female tourists in various states of euphoria are hard to
    miss (granted, not the Brits so much, and less after the recent unfortunate
    events), esp. if you show them Hemingway's and Henry Miller's favorite
    drinking establishments and recite Rimbaud's La bateau ivre while you're at it

    Replies: @Ivy

    One truism about languages and European education was that German Abitur grads could out-debate their American counterparts about philosophy, in English. There is a variation on that for French Bac grads.

  • @Desiderius

    There’s a magical quality at work, like with ancient Athens or Renaissance Italy.
     
    It wasn't all magic. You had a monarch willing to (energetically) keep the SJWs (Puritan and Jesuit) in check.

    Replies: @benjaminl

    LOL. I would love to read a considered comparison/contrasts of the Puritans and Jesuits in terms of the associated psychological types who are attracted to each movement.

  • @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve,

    Did you entertain the idea that Shakespeare could have been multiple writers? Or not?

    Or did you say many of the elegant touches in his work may have been additions by actors and others over the years, during his life and afterward?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Maybe Shakespeare’s actors helped him punch up their lines in rehearsals? I’ve seldom seen that idea explored. Today we have comedy movies that are collaboratively semi-improvisational, such as Rogen’s This Is the End where a bunch of comedians play themselves during the apocalypse.

    Those feel quite different than Shakespeare’s plays, however.

    When my wife starred in a dinner theater production of a Neil Simon play, I rewrote a half dozen jokes for her that had gotten stale in the 15 years since Simon had written it.

    Drama tends to be less improvisational than comedy, though. Tragedy often works best when it seems fated, inevitable, so you can’t have the actors riffing off the top of their heads as much.

    Still, take that quintessence of dust speech from Hamlet. It’s extremely actorly, so I’d hardly be surprised if Richard Burbage, Shakespeare’s leading man, didn’t give at least negative input in terms of what he found awkward in the first draft to be awkward to say.

    By the way, there are three different printed versions of Hamlet. The “bad” first version is usually assumed to be pirated by somebody in the audience writing down what he remembered. I don’t see too often the theory that maybe that really was the initial version that got tried out and the later versions really were later versions after the company had worked the bugs out.

    Stoppard plays are printed in an earlier English version and a later American version. I can vaguely remember seeing one play in America after I had read the English version and, wow, the American version was a lot better, because Stoppard had fixed problems in his original version.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Steve Sailer

    There are actually five Hamlets: the shorter 1603 quarto, the longer 1604 quarto, the 1623 First Folio version (somewhat shorter than the 1604 version), a German version from no later than 1605 (which is very similar to the 1603 quarto but has a weird chorus at the beginning), and then the so called "Ur-Hamlet" which goes back to at least 1589 because Nashe referenced it at that time (We know nothing about this version, which is not normally attributed to Shakespeare) except that there are 2-3 references to it in about 1593). There are no pat answers about which version came first, but this underscores the bewildering back story to many of the plays. Of course everyone wants absolutely certainty, because Shakespeare, but it's all very muddy and open to speculation of all kinds.

    As for actors' contributions, that argument goes back at least to Alexander Pope who felt that the Folio versions had been augmented by the players. Then there's the argument that the quartos are reconstructions by other actors to make a buck. Again, there are no pat answers and considerable uncertainty. The details for Elizabethan drama can be very messy.

    , @Desiderius
    @Steve Sailer


    I don’t see too often the theory that maybe that really was the initial version that got tried out and the later versions really were later versions after the company had worked the bugs out.
     
    A play is always a work in progress, especially after the first performance. Until then, the audience hasn't had their say.
    , @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    It makes sense to me that the plays would have been "workshopped" over time. The basic structure would be laid down by Shakespeare, but then improvements along the way, including input from actors would be added.

    That seems like a middle ground between no revision on the one hand vs. free improvisation on the other.

    It's a fascinating idea. It's pretty standard for Hollywood to screen movies and see how audiences react. They make changes based on their reaction. I have no idea if people like Hitchcock did that.

    Writing a novel seems terrible by comparison. You have write the whole thing before getting much feedback. And then it is set in stone. Maybe feedback from editors is helpful. But it's not like being able to test market it.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  • @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    Maybe Shakespeare's actors helped him punch up their lines in rehearsals? I've seldom seen that idea explored. Today we have comedy movies that are collaboratively semi-improvisational, such as Rogen's This Is the End where a bunch of comedians play themselves during the apocalypse.

    Those feel quite different than Shakespeare's plays, however.

    When my wife starred in a dinner theater production of a Neil Simon play, I rewrote a half dozen jokes for her that had gotten stale in the 15 years since Simon had written it.

    Drama tends to be less improvisational than comedy, though. Tragedy often works best when it seems fated, inevitable, so you can't have the actors riffing off the top of their heads as much.

    Still, take that quintessence of dust speech from Hamlet. It's extremely actorly, so I'd hardly be surprised if Richard Burbage, Shakespeare's leading man, didn't give at least negative input in terms of what he found awkward in the first draft to be awkward to say.

    By the way, there are three different printed versions of Hamlet. The "bad" first version is usually assumed to be pirated by somebody in the audience writing down what he remembered. I don't see too often the theory that maybe that really was the initial version that got tried out and the later versions really were later versions after the company had worked the bugs out.

    Stoppard plays are printed in an earlier English version and a later American version. I can vaguely remember seeing one play in America after I had read the English version and, wow, the American version was a lot better, because Stoppard had fixed problems in his original version.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @Desiderius, @Anonymous

    There are actually five Hamlets: the shorter 1603 quarto, the longer 1604 quarto, the 1623 First Folio version (somewhat shorter than the 1604 version), a German version from no later than 1605 (which is very similar to the 1603 quarto but has a weird chorus at the beginning), and then the so called “Ur-Hamlet” which goes back to at least 1589 because Nashe referenced it at that time (We know nothing about this version, which is not normally attributed to Shakespeare) except that there are 2-3 references to it in about 1593). There are no pat answers about which version came first, but this underscores the bewildering back story to many of the plays. Of course everyone wants absolutely certainty, because Shakespeare, but it’s all very muddy and open to speculation of all kinds.

    As for actors’ contributions, that argument goes back at least to Alexander Pope who felt that the Folio versions had been augmented by the players. Then there’s the argument that the quartos are reconstructions by other actors to make a buck. Again, there are no pat answers and considerable uncertainty. The details for Elizabethan drama can be very messy.