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From my new column in Taki’s Magazine:

Tough Testing
by Steve Sailer, October 16, 2019

One of the less remarked-upon gender gaps is in college attendance: Young men have fallen far behind young women. Males now make up only 43 percent of college students despite continuing to earn slightly higher average scores on college admission tests.

Perversely, journalist Paul Tough’s much-praised new book, The Years That Matter Most: How College Makes or Breaks Us, calls for America to worsen this inequality by dumping the SAT and ACT for being biased toward boys.

To Tough, college entrance examinations are just another conspiracy to make white boys look good.

Read the whole thing there.

 
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  1. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    So, in the unlikely event that you get a chance to go to Harvard rather than to Directional State U., you might well consider it. For example, if you run into a rough patch, Harvard has the resources to help you avoid flunking out. And if you are thriving intellectually, Harvard has all sorts of delightful amenities for the best minds.

    In turn, some lucrative careers such as consulting and investment banking don’t recruit much at non-rich colleges.

    There is really no end to the ways in which nice things are better than non-nice things, is there?

    But there are some tools that flyover country nonelite yokels have in their armamentaria, if only they would use them. One would be not to elect Ivy Leaguers or T14 law graduates to political office. Hell, except for DA and Attorney General, why elect any law school graduates at all? I figure any lawyer running for public office is by definition probably a mediocre or poor attorney anyway, except maybe Oscar Goodman, on the theory the mob hires only good lawyers inasmuch as they have the money to do so.

    Another would be to incessantly hector their senators on making the government make those snooty firms governments have to deal with hire out of the better state schools or lose those lucrative contracts.

    Another would be to make sport of and ridicule the local big swinging dickettes of suburbia who brag about their college sportsball booterism and remind them in front of their friends that the real winners sponsor Victory! in stuff that really matters instead of sportsball. No one cares who invented basketball or what stadium most intimidates its visitors.

    • Replies: @Realist
    I agree with your comments, but the main advantage of graduation from Ivy league schools is the good ol' boys club. Those in power give a big hand up to their fellow alumni.
    , @Joe Stalin
    "One would be not to elect Ivy Leaguers or T14 law graduates to political office. "

    Seems to me that the Ivy Leaguers are the ones always telling us the Second Amendment doesn't mean crap in their judicial decisions, so why don't we stop nominating them so as to get people who don't think like your prototypical Coastal Communists?
    , @Diversity Heretic
    It's staggering, for example, that all of the Supreme Court justices are either Harvard or Yale educated. (I believe Ginsburg also attended Columbia). But Grassley, from Iowa, just sits as chairman of that Senate Judicary Committee and never agitates for any law school origin diversity for Supreme Court candidates.
    , @Tweety Bird

    One would be not to elect Ivy Leaguers or T14 law graduates to political office.
     
    After the disastrous 28 straight years of Bush Sr - Clinton - W. - Obama, and the string of bad decisions by SCOTUS judges from Citizens United to Super PAC to Gay Marriage, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The next ten POTUS & SCOTUS judges must not be someone who went to Harvard or Yale. These two institutions have done more damage to the country than any other institution with their pompous, elitist, completely overrated moron legacy/affirmative action hack graduates.

    The only exception I would make is for Kris Kobach. He's good in spite of his Harvard degree, not because of it.

  2. The sex gap in college attendance has to do with the selection process for lower skilled careers.

    Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc.

    You make good points, but at some point you’re going to have to stop the carping on white boys. It’s just as divisive as the current crop of feminists. At some point you’ll have to persuade women.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    I say this from experience.

    There’s nothing sadder than a female math major applying the math (of compound interest) to her student loan debt almost after the fact. I dated her a few times and it was her Junior year. The debt wasn’t THAT bad, (below $50,000) but I was surprised she didn’t do it beforehand.

    , @J.Ross
    Men go into trades or smaller businesses because corporate and academia don't want men, except at the top, and signal this every chance they get.
    "Persuading women" means giving most women signals of emotion and conformity, not persuading.
    , @Triumph104
    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year. No college. He is a lineman with the electric company, owns a lawncare business with employees, and has three rental homes. He paid cash for two of the properties. He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent.

    https://youtu.be/6bi2XvD0eXw
    , @Whiskey
    Persuading women is completely a question of dominance. Sexual and racial equality has been catastrophic for White men and explains much of the war on Whites. Whip women registering disgust at men not just their equals but other men.
    , @nymom
    Income wise those lower-skilled carpenters, plumbers, electricians etc., are often making more money than the college graduates unless they get into a very lucrative profession like medicine or law. Most college grads do not go into medicine or law and the tech professionals are gravitating away from hiring whites and going more and more with Asian hires.

    So this too is changing. Many things that used to be conventional wisdom no longer hold true.
    , @anonymous
    "Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc."

    Lower skilled in what? Differently skilled yes. Take your average law graduate from Harvard and he wouldn't have a clue on how to install a three phase electric motor nor the theory behind it as the electrician probably wouldn't know how to argue the finer points of Roe vs Wade before a district court judge. Different skills but not better skills. The country could survive without lawyers but not without electricians, everything would come to a stop. Think about it.
    , @RAZ
    I run a construction company and my wife is an elementary school teacher so I have experience dealing with both construction trades people and elementary school teachers. I would rate the teachers as higher skilled.

    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels. Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    About the only place females don't outperform males seems to be at the very highest level of intelligence. Nobel prize level scientists/mathematicians, etc. But don't notice that. Harvard President Summers got in trouble for noticing that.
    , @Hypnotoad666
    College debt is the hot topic. But one of the constant fallacies in nearly everyone's analysis of the value of college is to simply ignore the opportunity cost of spending 4-5 years on campus.

    So that's actually the missing -- and most interesting -- part of the college gender gap question: What exactly are all those 18 year-old males doing with their time instead of college? Are they getting started on careers? Or just playing video games and smoking pot?

    Also, while it would be extremely un-PC to notice, the economic ROI of female higher education is clearly lower than for males. As just one example, a high percentage of female law school grads never practice. Of those who do, the majority marry another well-compensated lawyers and proceed to drop out of working, or at least working in the fast-track.

    Of course, if anyone did run the ROI numbers it would produce yet another "Gap" that would need to be closed.

  3. • Replies: @Kronos
    Yeah, guys aren’t going to marry chicks with massive debt.
    , @bomag
    Another example of the modern world being a demographic shredder.
    , @El Dato
    Totally.

    Luckily, there is "open borders", so the ladies won't be alone.

    But who will fix the kitchen sink?
    , @AndrewR
    Heaven forbid a woman marry a "less educated" man
    , @Elmer T. Jones
    The possibility that men are not interested in overeducated leftover women is never considered. It's always cast as men falling short of women's requirements. Somehow the chap in the graphic is nervous that the aging princess with the mortar board, student debt, and dwindling fertility thinks he is not a worthy marital prospect.
    , @Tony
    The woman in the cartoon has a man jaw.
    , @Tweety Bird
    This means one of two things:

    1) More college educated women who go into "pink collar" jobs will end up marrying males without college degrees, e.g. elementary teachers marrying police officers.

    2) More college educated women with professional degrees will end up marrying non-white males with professional degrees. College educated black males esp. ones with professional degrees are hot commodities these days, both white and black women are practically throwing themselves at them.

  4. Instead of tests, Tough argues, colleges should make admissions fairer by relying even more heavily on high school grades, essays, recommendations, and extracurriculars.

    In 1984 a Canadian grad student in a summer course told us Yanks that he couldn’t begin to understand our reliance on standardized tests, which were rare at the time in his country. We asked him what they used in Canada.

    He said, “Your marks.” (He was from the Ottawa Valley, where they have a weird way of pronouncing this word.)

    Canadian education must have been quite homogeneous back in the day!

    Just so you know, Paul Tough is Canadian, and only a few years younger than this guy.

    • Replies: @eded
    Paul Tough's wiki page says he attended the University of Toronto Schools which was the university's lab schools and is now a private school. David Frum is an alum.

    "Your marks" still determine which program accept you at Canadian universities. However, certain highly selective programs weight heavily your performance in the Euclid Mathematics contest or the Canadian Senior Mathematics contest, but as general rule there is no standardized testing.
    , @CAL2
    I've never understood using GPA or class ranking from HS as any sort of measure. If you go to a small private school and are fourth in your class our of 35 (outside the top 10%), how are you worse than someone who is 36th out of 400 at an inner city school?

    Back in the 80's, I went to a HS out in the country. You know, one of those supposedly inferior schools with barely a budget. We had a kid transfer in from one of the state's big cities. He was talking up how he got all A's at his previous school. After the first grading period he was barely passing.
    , @AKAHorace
    If he was from the Ottawa valley he said "marrrks" with a hard r ?

    I don't know about education in the states but the post 1960s educational system in the UK (up until the 90s anyway, not sure after that) was more rigorous than in Canada probably because of examinations that were marked by external examiners. In Canada, in high school there was a tendency to consciously or unconsiously use marks as a way of soft discipline, by giving marks for effort or attitude. As well as this many of the teachers were not that smart themselves and so at the high school level were not capable of designing a curriculum.

    In the UK, there were smart boys with discipline problems who could do well in the system. This was much less likely to happen in Canada.
    , @Intelligent Dasein
    "These aren't standardized tests, these are his grades."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXMDRbOBMno
    , @Altai
    Every other country uses a standardised set of end of school examinations. Though some institutions in Britain do require a personal interview process and referees. It's only the US (And TIL Canada) that uses school grades and subjective matters like personal essays so heavily. Though there are debates in many countries to reduce the exam burden and use projects etc but this is controversial as exams are arguably more fair to people from poorer backgrounds/suffering from depression than using projects.

    And as Steve has aptly documented, this practice became endemic in the US due to the ethnic conflict between America's old elites and Jews which was then continued by the Jews themselves once they were in power. Like the arcane system of reporting taxable income, (Only the very very wealthy with lots of different income and asset types would ever consider hiring the services of a tax lawyer outside the US) it's a uniquely American phenomena.
    , @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Yer maiyrks!
  5. Let me guess: Paul Tough “is smart, but doesn’t test well”?

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Kronos
    This is a guy who wrote a book titled:

    “Whatever It Takes: Geoffrey Canada's Quest to Change Harlem and America and How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity, and the Hidden Power of Character.”

    He may have done alright with tests, (but not superbly.) The Wikipedia page encourages the view that’s he’s a standard poverty grifter for black education money. He’s too young (age 52) to be a true Jonathan Kozol level believer in raising Black IQ via environmental/behavioral modification.

    Raymond Wolter’s HBD-orientated book “The Long Crusade: Profiles in Education Reform 1967-2014” indirectly suggested that the hardcore firebrands had to be born in a certain place and time to believe they could make difference. Born before eugenic thought was popular and before 1980s cynicism on the achievement gap.

    *I actually have the book at home. One neighbor found it on my personal bookcase and thought I was interested in “helping the children.” He had no idea what the book was about.

    https://www.amazon.com/Long-Crusade-Profiles-Education-1967-2014/dp/1593680414
  6. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1182928941637668864

    Yeah, guys aren’t going to marry chicks with massive debt.

    • Replies: @Moses

    Yeah, guys aren’t going to marry chicks with massive debt.
     
    It's "men" not "guys."
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    Irrelevant.

    Any halfway attractive, sociable young woman is already playing life on easy mode.

    There are so many attention-starved men out there that these young ladies can go far with a wink, a smile, and a low cut blouse.
  7. Seems to me college these days neither makes nor breaks you. In college, students get to dial the difficulty of their academic work up or down by switching majors. Everyone learns their trade either on the job after college or in graduate school. So college doesn’t really much matter. Of course, if a student drops out of college $100K in debt, that sucks.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    While looking back, I should’ve hired a hacker to place me into a middle/upper tier University’s system with a degree while I pocketed the rest of the college money and partied in New Zealand/Australia. I graduated with good grades and no debt but the opportunity cost is glaring.
    , @J.Ross
    You could say that college is the beginning of a training process for medical doctors but a piece of jewelry for most graduates, and even those students who are receiving education do not leave college ready to work.
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    I dropped out of a non-prestigious Cal State University after my freshman year to join the U.S. Coast Guard. It was a good decision.
  8. Anon[385] • Disclaimer says:

    Somewhat on topic:

    A band saw, a drill press and $2.3 million. College celebrates largest donation ever as ‘transformative’

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-10-14/cerritos-college-donation-woodworking

    https://www.whittierdailynews.com/2019/10/14/man-who-took-woodworking-classes-at-cerritos-college-leaves-scholarships-gift/

    https://www.loscerritosnews.net/2019/10/15/cerritos-college-alumnus-john-b-smith-leaves-2-3m-estate-gift-for-woodworking-scholarships/

    A modestly well-off guy towards the end of his life adds a bequest to the local community college to his will. But he carefully limits the money to the woodworking department. No gender studies professors can profit from it.

    Its a dependent grant, and it takes a while for his mother to die and the money to come to the college, but it ends up at $2.3 million plus some nice tools from the guy’s workshop.

    Meanwhile, the woodworking program seems to have become mostly female since the guy took classes himself.

    And the woodworking scholarship created from the guy’s bequest is being tweaked to help increase diversity even more. After all, woodworking is oppressively male and hegemonically patriarchical, and that needs to change. What can’t the entire woodworking student body be female?

    Ignoring the wishes of donors is surprising common and has resulted in recent lawsuits. A clever legal trick is to get two colleges involved in such a way that each has a large financial incentive to monitor the activities of the other under the terms of the donation:

    When Colleges Defraud Donors

    https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2019/09/30/when-colleges-defraud-donors/

    The Mizzou misappropriation of funds allegation would never have arisen except for an extremely eccentric but highly perceptive precaution taken by Sherlock Hibbs –he appointed Hillsdale College as an overseer of the funds, giving them the power to assess, every four years, whether donor intent is being met –and, if it is not, to become the recipient of those funds. Hillsdale is known for its strong adherence to conservative or libertarian principles combined with a strong Christian tradition–it is opening a new spectacular $30 million chapel at a ceremony with Justice Clarence Thomas speaking in a few days. Hibbs felt that if there were hanky-panky in the use of funds at Mizzou, Hillsdale would protest. He was right.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    If I were him, instead of leaving $2.3 million to some school, I'd start my own.

    I'd find some unused commercial space and open my own woodworking school, offering lessons to the public on my own terms. There's a cooking school in a strip mall near me, why not woodworking? It may not be able to get someone job placement, but at least I won't have to deal with a bunch of SJW money-redistributers.

    , @Barnard
    This is just stupid. Hibbs had no reason to think Missouri was going to live up to its promises and hire Austrian school economists with his money. Why not give the money to Hillsdale outright in the beginning and send Missouri a letter telling them why? If donors cut the school out completely that might, eventually bring some small changes in honoring donor requests they would like to ignore. Giving them the money and putting someone else in the position to sue just results in inevitable legal costs and wasted time. This may self correct, as I doubt future generations will have near the nostalgia pull to their alma maters as older generations do today.
    , @anon
    Woodworking is a great hobby, but awful career. Unless you can tap into a tiny boutique market. One of the reasons it is an interesting hobby is that wood isn't dimensionally stable, and a lot of design and craftsmanship is making functionally stable things out of an unstable material. No one much wants to pay for these skills when there are work arounds. I'll mention plywood and particleboard first as stable surrogates and then virtually any other material.

    There is money in kitchens. People need em, want em, and pay up for them. Woodworking could be a good background, but hardly necessary.

    I would consider an AA degree in woodworking a curse. HVAC not so much.
  9. Colleges need butts in seats so that’s a check on further feminizing college admissions.

    43-57, that’s quite the gender gap. Keep in mind that boys are 51% of the 17 year old population, so that 14 point gap is 16 points higher than the expected 51-49.

    Then there’s the evidence of higher average male IQ and higher male IQ SD. So the 110+ IQ population is probably 55%+ male.

    • Agree: bomag, HammerJack, Realist
  10. @Jesse
    The sex gap in college attendance has to do with the selection process for lower skilled careers.

    Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc.

    You make good points, but at some point you're going to have to stop the carping on white boys. It's just as divisive as the current crop of feminists. At some point you'll have to persuade women.

    I say this from experience.

    There’s nothing sadder than a female math major applying the math (of compound interest) to her student loan debt almost after the fact. I dated her a few times and it was her Junior year. The debt wasn’t THAT bad, (below $50,000) but I was surprised she didn’t do it beforehand.

    • LOL: jim jones
    • Replies: @JMcG
    I know a woman like that. Math major in college, watched her two daughters borrow 100k each to attend a 2nd tier university and smiled as each girl bought a new car upon landing her first job. Incomprehensible.
  11. Anon[295] • Disclaimer says:

    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.

    Honestly, is it even true that a high IQ rural white male going to Harvard can get significant financial aid? Doesn’t it tend to go to students in some “underrepresented” class? If so, not applying is a rational decision.

    A rural white male will not make the university more diverse, and will not trigger any significant donor activity (his parents are poor and he is a crapshoot and any income is far in the future).

    • Replies: @OscarWildeLoveChild
    White females have voted to give preference to illegal and legal immigrants to this country, for the last 20-30 years. Obama and Clinton and every dem (and most repubs nowdays) on every downstream ticket is 100 percent for affirmative action--which as everyone knows, does not just mean 'descendants of slaves". High end Africans from the Ivory Coast who moved here 10 years ago, can bank on their "black" children getting preference in everything from college entrances, to jobs (public or private sector), and if they are business owners, government contracts at the local, state and federal level.

    Similarly, there are tens of millions of "Hispanic/Latinos" living in the United States, who have no historical or cultural claim to any disenfranchisement, who literally walk into the United States and are "gifted" affirmative action in all the above. White heritage Americans, of all types, not just liberals with one kid living in urban areas, have repeatedly voted for the interests of outgroups, even though who had no connection whatsoever to any perceived historical wrongs. Descendants of slaves were one thing, people from the rest of the world are another.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.
     
    The girls are nicer at Directional State. Also, two-to-four years' experience and income in plumbing, HVAC, etc, are nothing to laugh at. Why put $50,000 per annum on credit just to be mocked?

    A point made in countries with an active all-male draft, from Singapore to Finland, is that young men lose valuable time to their competitors, both female and the luckier men.

    This effect can be flipped around by capable fellows going right into remunerative degree-free work.

    , @XYZ (no Mr.)
    From my experience many smart rural young men choose engineering in college, the ones who wash out, accounting or business. And an undergraduate degree in engineering from an ABET accredited state university will result in a pretty nice middle class life in low-cost flyover country. So I think some of the lack of rural white men at the prestige institutions is simply the fact they don't care about the Ivy League much. Of course Ivy League degrees will open many more doors, but you have to care about the doors in the first place.
    , @a very bossy cat
    "I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt."

    I agree. The wealthiest colleges can afford to give a whole lot of aid. The aid has always been there, but lately getting more "first-generation college students" has become a big thing at elite colleges. That push, and that financial aid, may not yet be well-known.
    , @Anonymous

    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available
     
    I think there are several factors at work:

    -Natural desire to be closer to family/high school friends
    -Desire to participate in the Big State U culture which has probably surrounded the boy from an early age
    -As you say, perceived lower cost of Big State U and lack of awareness of financial aid at more "elite" schools
    -Lack of awareness of opportunities that exist for HYP graduates versus those from Big State U (what percentage of high school seniors have even the faintest idea what "McKinsey" is?)
    -A not-unjustified fear that he will be surrounded by snobs and discriminated against for his flyover-state background
    -Amongst Southerners, a fear of cold weather

    Another factor is simply a feeling of inaccessibility. The flyover 18 year old has probably never met anyone who attended Harvard. Harvard is an abstract thing for him; it might as well be Oxford, or be on the moon. An HYP graduate I used to know from a more-privileged background made the analogy that it would be like her joining the Army: yes, she's aware that there's this thing called the Army and that people do join it, but it's so remote from her own experience that it just doesn't feel like a "real" thing people do.
    , @kanye's doppelganger
    I finally decided to start shooting straight with some of my students about college. My key one: "Why validate an institution that devalues your beliefs and background? Directuional U is fine and is at worst just a couple of cooky departments?"
  12. @Redneck farmer
    Let me guess: Paul Tough "is smart, but doesn't test well"?

    This is a guy who wrote a book titled:

    “Whatever It Takes: Geoffrey Canada’s Quest to Change Harlem and America and How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity, and the Hidden Power of Character.”

    He may have done alright with tests, (but not superbly.) The Wikipedia page encourages the view that’s he’s a standard poverty grifter for black education money. He’s too young (age 52) to be a true Jonathan Kozol level believer in raising Black IQ via environmental/behavioral modification.

    Raymond Wolter’s HBD-orientated book “The Long Crusade: Profiles in Education Reform 1967-2014” indirectly suggested that the hardcore firebrands had to be born in a certain place and time to believe they could make difference. Born before eugenic thought was popular and before 1980s cynicism on the achievement gap.

    *I actually have the book at home. One neighbor found it on my personal bookcase and thought I was interested in “helping the children.” He had no idea what the book was about.

    https://www.amazon.com/Long-Crusade-Profiles-Education-1967-2014/dp/1593680414

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    Thanks for the info! I may need to pick up your book suggestion.
  13. @Kronos
    Yeah, guys aren’t going to marry chicks with massive debt.

    Yeah, guys aren’t going to marry chicks with massive debt.

    It’s “men” not “guys.”

    • Replies: @Kronos
    It’s noted. Want me to change “chicks” to “women” while I’m at it?
  14. Anon[280] • Disclaimer says:

    Steve, you say, “This country needs to reform testing, to get it back to doing the job it did fairly well in the past.”

    Can you be more specific? For instance,

    Do you buy into the story about test prepping skewing things? Do you think they need to be making more prep-resistant tests? Would dynamic, computerized tests be less prep-resistant?

    My view is that “test prep” is the new “implicit bias,” African voodoo, in that you can offer free test prep, as they did in New York, and it won’t change anything, and then they will say that rich whites and poor Asians get the good stuff, the really exepensive “magic prep” that isn’t available to others. In addition, I think that having the initiative and boredom-tolerancne to go to test prep on a regular basis says something positive about you that universities should want to know, outsite of cost issues (but here we have unsubstantiated claims that black kids are working jobs or taking care of step-siblings or burdened by stress and thus cannot attend prep irrespective of the cost).

    Do you think the SAT should be more g-loaded and thus harder to prep for either via test prep or even just by taking a lot of classes and studying hard? (This might make boys score even higher.)

    — The appendix of The Bell Curve convinced me that researchers have the cultural bias stuff under control, but do you think that the SAT may be culturally biased?

    — The Americans with Disabilities Act has managed to infect the reliability of the test. What do you think should be done about the disabled and SAT testing? I think that if your disability interferes with test taking, it’s going to interfere with your academic and job performance. I’d like to see an honest reporting of test scores on an apples-to-apples basis, with perhaps a secondary score or some sort of handicap reported that can be used to adjust a handicapped person’s score by the university, without polluting the raw data of the scores.

    You’ve mentioned making the range of the test much wider so as to give granular results for test-takers two or three standard deviations beyond what they now measure.

    Should the test be free or subsidized?

    Should multiple tests be outlawed, or at least should it be impossible to hide multiple results from institutions?

    • Replies: @bomag

    should testing...
     
    Much of test criticism is political; opponents won't be happy with any disparate test scores.
    , @Tweety Bird
    The effect of test prepping is way overstated. It really doesn't change scores that much. Between my two kids who took the SAT 3x, one consistently scores in the mid 1500's, the other in the mid 1400's. Both scores went up by 100 points between the second and first sitting, but only 10 points btwn the third and second sitting. Both "test prepped" by taking all 4 of the free practice tests on College Board's website before the first sitting, and nothing more.
  15. @Moses

    Yeah, guys aren’t going to marry chicks with massive debt.
     
    It's "men" not "guys."

    It’s noted. Want me to change “chicks” to “women” while I’m at it?

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    Please change "chicks" to "chix".
    , @Moses

    It’s noted. Want me to change “chicks” to “women” while I’m at it?
     
    "Chix" or "Broads" please.

    Mocking aside, word choice matters.

    "Guys" has a different meaning than "Men."

    "Guys" is a bunch of teens hanging out playing video games and eating Cheetos. "Men" is, well, Men.

    If you mean "Men" use it.

    Media likes "guys" because they don't like "Men". Toxic masculinity and all that.

    That is all.
  16. @JimB
    Seems to me college these days neither makes nor breaks you. In college, students get to dial the difficulty of their academic work up or down by switching majors. Everyone learns their trade either on the job after college or in graduate school. So college doesn’t really much matter. Of course, if a student drops out of college $100K in debt, that sucks.

    While looking back, I should’ve hired a hacker to place me into a middle/upper tier University’s system with a degree while I pocketed the rest of the college money and partied in New Zealand/Australia. I graduated with good grades and no debt but the opportunity cost is glaring.

    • Replies: @bomag
    Looking back, did you even need to go to college?
  17. @Jesse
    The sex gap in college attendance has to do with the selection process for lower skilled careers.

    Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc.

    You make good points, but at some point you're going to have to stop the carping on white boys. It's just as divisive as the current crop of feminists. At some point you'll have to persuade women.

    Men go into trades or smaller businesses because corporate and academia don’t want men, except at the top, and signal this every chance they get.
    “Persuading women” means giving most women signals of emotion and conformity, not persuading.

    • Replies: @Dr. X

    Men go into trades or smaller businesses because corporate and academia don’t want men, except at the top, and signal this every chance they get.
     
    Well, they DO want gay men and black men...
  18. @JimB
    Seems to me college these days neither makes nor breaks you. In college, students get to dial the difficulty of their academic work up or down by switching majors. Everyone learns their trade either on the job after college or in graduate school. So college doesn’t really much matter. Of course, if a student drops out of college $100K in debt, that sucks.

    You could say that college is the beginning of a training process for medical doctors but a piece of jewelry for most graduates, and even those students who are receiving education do not leave college ready to work.

    • Replies: @JimB

    You could say that college is the beginning of a training process for medical doctors
     
    If students know this, they should enter a six year joint BS/MD program. It limits college choice, but a premed has already severely narrowed his range of interests. I suspect accelerated students are more likely to get a prestigious internship in medicine later. And the total education cost includes two, not four years of medical school.
  19. @Jesse
    The sex gap in college attendance has to do with the selection process for lower skilled careers.

    Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc.

    You make good points, but at some point you're going to have to stop the carping on white boys. It's just as divisive as the current crop of feminists. At some point you'll have to persuade women.

    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year. No college. He is a lineman with the electric company, owns a lawncare business with employees, and has three rental homes. He paid cash for two of the properties. He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    Ben Sasse will tell us this guy is a loser because he still lives at home.
    , @Ed
    I really like this series. I think his folks helped him out a bit though.
    , @George
    Good for Mr Sanchez but his salary is mostly due to productivity so the Sanchez lineman solution is probably not available for the masses. University is about occupying the army of the unemployed until they near 30 and likely won't be a social problem that challenges the state. The trades that women are most represented in, nursing, teaching, and maybe law require university 4yr degrees, so it makes sense for them to go to University.

    It is also possible that to become a lineman requires family connections to enter into the profession.
    , @ScarletNumber
    He is a lineman for the county, and he drives the main roads.

    While "Wichita Lineman" was performed by Glen Campbell, it was written by Jimmy Webb, who, in addition to writing The Worst That Could Happen, also compared love ending to cake left out in the rain.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year... owns a lawncare business with employees...
     
    A literal dirty Sanchez! As in getting his hands dirty.

    I'm assuming he's American. Are his workers? This is West Chicago.
    , @J.Ross
    More power -- err, or wealth -- to him, but surely he is relying on every immigrant's temp agency (that is, la familia) to staff all those positions?
    , @MBlanc46
    Far too many people with names such as Sanchez in West Chicago. It’s a pit.
  20. American Indian/Alaska Native now score lower on the SAT than blacks. More underrepresented minorities took the exam in 2018-2019.

    American Indian/Alaska Native
    Total 912 Reading/Writing 461 Math 451

    Black
    Total 933 Reading/Writing 476 Math 457

    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2019/09/24/minority-and-first-generation-sat-scores-fall-behind

    • Replies: @res
    That is a big swing. The gap was almost the opposite in 2017:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/27/scores-new-sat-show-large-gaps-race-and-ethnicity

    American Indian/Alaska Native
    Total 963 Reading/Writing 486 Math 477

    Black
    Total 941 Reading/Writing 479 Math 462

    Any idea of the percentage taking the test for each group?

    It was a fairly smooth change since they were almost at parity in 2018:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/10/29/sat-scores-are-gaps-remain-significant-among-racial-and-ethnic-groups

    And take a look at the gap in 2006!
    https://www.jbhe.com/features/53_SAT.html

    https://www.jbhe.com/images/issue53/SAT3.gif

    Here is a longer series of data (going back to 1986-87):
    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_226.10.asp

    What is happening with the American Indians?
  21. @Reg Cæsar

    Instead of tests, Tough argues, colleges should make admissions fairer by relying even more heavily on high school grades, essays, recommendations, and extracurriculars.
     
    In 1984 a Canadian grad student in a summer course told us Yanks that he couldn't begin to understand our reliance on standardized tests, which were rare at the time in his country. We asked him what they used in Canada.

    He said, "Your marks." (He was from the Ottawa Valley, where they have a weird way of pronouncing this word.)

    Canadian education must have been quite homogeneous back in the day!


    Just so you know, Paul Tough is Canadian, and only a few years younger than this guy.

    Paul Tough’s wiki page says he attended the University of Toronto Schools which was the university’s lab schools and is now a private school. David Frum is an alum.

    “Your marks” still determine which program accept you at Canadian universities. However, certain highly selective programs weight heavily your performance in the Euclid Mathematics contest or the Canadian Senior Mathematics contest, but as general rule there is no standardized testing.

  22. One rural white boy who did seem to get some kind of holistic admissions preference was “Hillbilly Elegy” author JD Vance, who gained admission to Yale Law School after a stint in the military and Ohio State.

  23. I thought the Nobel Prize in Economy (bank of Sweden) with a French woman Jewish married to a highest Indian Brahmin jati (one of 5 founding families in Bengal, Kulin Brahmin) would warrant a huge article ….

    • Replies: @Altai
    As you allude, fake Nobel's with no consistency in what kind of reality they even think we live in don't count.
  24. Sen tom cotton is said to have been one of two rural arkansans in his harvard class. Given his parents were both state employees i cant see theyd have paid the sticker price.

  25. Steve, I wish you’d stop pumping up Harvard so much. While what you write about Harvard’s endowments and skill in maximizing returns may be correct, we don’t need more smart, Christian white boys there. If the school’s products are any indication, the fewer the better.

    The school has had a Unitarian Universalist philosophy for nigh on 200 years. We don’t need more of that — we need much, much less.

    So let’s think of reasons not to send the best and brightest of our children to Harvard instead of reinforcing its brand.

    Just off the top of my head, aesthetics comes to mind. What has Harvard done to make the world a more beautiful place?

    Maybe I’m an ignoramus, but I can’t think of much at all. As for philosophy, they are run-of-the-mill nominalists, and have been for a very long time (not very diverse in that department). Theology? Nothing of any value.

    Harvard is inhuman. It produces money and power accumulating robots. Perhaps that’s what it selects for. It’s a dystopian institution.

    I understand that this is part of the point you’re making, but it needs to be made explicit so that people understand.

    In my opinion, Harvard would be a far superior institution to today if it would but only ground its Unitarian philosophy in a respectable Unitarian faith such as Orthodox Judaism or Wahhabi Islam. Then at least there would be some consistency and a rebuttable theory that its dogma is beneficial to mankind, but the institution prefers to remain slippery, like a snake crawling through the grass, devouring and digesting its hypnotized victims only to excrete their soulless remains onto the rest of us.

    • Replies: @bomag

    ...we don’t need more smart, Christian white boys there
     
    I'd suggest the plan is for smart, Christian boys to wrest control of the place away from GloboHomo™.

    But in the grand battle with GloboHomo™, maybe prudence dictates that we marginalize the place and let it become a ghetto.
    , @Anonymous

    Steve, I wish you’d stop pumping up Harvard so much. While what you write about Harvard’s endowments and skill in maximizing returns may be correct, we don’t need more smart, Christian white boys there. If the school’s products are any indication, the fewer the better.

    The school has had a Unitarian Universalist philosophy for nigh on 200 years. We don’t need more of that — we need much, much less.
     
    Harvard and Yale were Congregationalist (Puritan) not Unitarian Universalist. The latter broke off from the former but was never part of Harvard or Yale.
    , @Altai
    Harvard is the greatest Financial Services career mill the world has ever known. IE, Harvard is the greatest rentier parasite generator the world has ever known.

    If Harvard ever dropped their standards it wouldn't effect it's functioning largely at all, except in highly technical fields. The general student pop of humanities and 'business' could do the jobs they are being recruited for just as well with a much lower IQ, it was only their predecessors who needed to be smart to set up those institutions they go on to work at and monopolise.

    It would, however, hurt their brand, which is where their power and the ultimately comes from. But to say that modern Harvard does anything better than take smart people and funnel the bulk of them into finance would be a lie.
    , @Kronos
    Are there any institutions that meet your seal of approval?
  26. @Kronos
    This is a guy who wrote a book titled:

    “Whatever It Takes: Geoffrey Canada's Quest to Change Harlem and America and How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity, and the Hidden Power of Character.”

    He may have done alright with tests, (but not superbly.) The Wikipedia page encourages the view that’s he’s a standard poverty grifter for black education money. He’s too young (age 52) to be a true Jonathan Kozol level believer in raising Black IQ via environmental/behavioral modification.

    Raymond Wolter’s HBD-orientated book “The Long Crusade: Profiles in Education Reform 1967-2014” indirectly suggested that the hardcore firebrands had to be born in a certain place and time to believe they could make difference. Born before eugenic thought was popular and before 1980s cynicism on the achievement gap.

    *I actually have the book at home. One neighbor found it on my personal bookcase and thought I was interested in “helping the children.” He had no idea what the book was about.

    https://www.amazon.com/Long-Crusade-Profiles-Education-1967-2014/dp/1593680414

    Thanks for the info! I may need to pick up your book suggestion.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Your welcome, Sailer did a superb article on it a few years back. It’s the reason I purchased in the first place.

    https://www.takimag.com/article/getting_schooled_steve_sailer/

    Another good one in the same vain is “Bad Students, Not Bad Schools” by Robert Weissberg.

    https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Students-Not-Schools/dp/141281345X

    Weissberg provides a better framework on how to encourage 100+ IQ students to reach their potential. That contemporary education not only inhibits itself with low-ability students but the cognitive heavy hitters don’t have any reason to play ball. They’re often de-facto stand-in teacher aids and help other students for free.

    Keep in mind if your in the education profession you might want to pace yourself. Otherwise it might lead to a blue liquor bath of depression.

    https://youtu.be/F5JXrSpap8c
  27. @Triumph104
    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year. No college. He is a lineman with the electric company, owns a lawncare business with employees, and has three rental homes. He paid cash for two of the properties. He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent.

    https://youtu.be/6bi2XvD0eXw

    Ben Sasse will tell us this guy is a loser because he still lives at home.

  28. @Triumph104
    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year. No college. He is a lineman with the electric company, owns a lawncare business with employees, and has three rental homes. He paid cash for two of the properties. He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent.

    https://youtu.be/6bi2XvD0eXw

    I really like this series. I think his folks helped him out a bit though.

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    I stopped watching the series after three videos because it is immigrant propaganda. Even the white homosexual who makes $172k/year mentioned that he had a Lithuanian grandmother. That being said, I will watch if they profile a black person.

    As for Alex Sanchez, they certainly did leave something out. His father wasn't mentioned in the video but is mentioned in the description box. The box also says that Alex dropped out of college. Someone in the comment section says it takes years to get into the linemen's union and you need to know someone.
    , @anonymous
    "I think his folks helped him out a bit though."

    Helped?

    "He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent." In Chicagoland.
  29. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1182928941637668864

    Another example of the modern world being a demographic shredder.

    • Agree: International Jew
  30. @Kronos
    While looking back, I should’ve hired a hacker to place me into a middle/upper tier University’s system with a degree while I pocketed the rest of the college money and partied in New Zealand/Australia. I graduated with good grades and no debt but the opportunity cost is glaring.

    Looking back, did you even need to go to college?

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    This is a very fun interesting question, and it would be interesting to get the answer for a lot of people.

    Was your college edumacation worth it, and if you didn’t graduate college, did it hurt you?

    I have a PhD in a hard science.

    During the dot-com boom, I taught myself programming. I was soon making double the amount of money programming with no degree compared to what I had been making as a professor with a PhD.

    On the other hand, most of my programming has been scientific programming, which requires a PhD.

    In retrospect, me getting a PhD may have been a waste of time, but I didn’t know the market would be flooded with Chinese graduates of American PhD programs. That was George H W Bush in action.

    I have one kid who works as an engineer. For him, college was absolutely necessary to get a job.

    OTOH I have neighbors who are go getters with similar skills but no education who learned a trade and started their own business. The nicest house on the street belongs to a plumber. The nicest cars belong to a guy with an HVAC business.

    My son isn’t really the go getter type to learn a trade and start a business. For him an engineering degree was the best way to go.

    My second kid is a senior in college, and a pre-med. College was necessary.
    , @Kronos
    I conducted a major paper in High School on how to improve public schools. It proved a project that really opened my eyes to a very nefarious system. I did research on most of the major people (John Dewey) and strategies/theories on education. I was perplexed (then frustrated) that nothing seemed to improve (or even decrease) education ability. That for the last 50+ years all attempts to improve attainment could be condensed into a wet fart.

    That’s when I encountered the dreaded “Necronomicon” of education and social sciences as a whole; Charles Murray’s “The Bell Curve.” It’s hard to explain the high level of indoctrination 1990s-2000s kids received on “race doesn’t exist” and “grades are entirely dependent on hard work” messaging. I had never encountered such a piece of alien thought and counter explanation for low-ability students. Keep in mind I previously attributed it strictly to poverty (the old explanation) compared to the contemporary (white man is evil) meme we have today.

    This is around the same time I first encountered the perpetual glory which is Steve Sailer. This was one of the first articles I encountered during my genetics and IQ “binge.”


    https://vdare.com/articles/pisa-scores-show-demography-is-destiny-in-education-too-but-washington-doesn-t-want-you-to-know

    Keep in mind I knew well enough to never let my teachers and project supervisor know about my alternative research. For the main project I recommended that public schools should be nationalized and bring the subsequent standardization with it. (They liked that.) After that, I didn’t return to any HBD related websites until around Trump’s Presidential run. (Liberal tears are a addictive narcotic.)

    By High School I understood education was typically a waste of time. I went to a decent college just because I could easily afford it. Also, there is a very real social stigma for not going to college. (Especially amongst the upper classes.) With the genetics of IQ and a poor job market regardless of industry (remember 2008?), college mainly just serves as a means to allow Boomer parents bragging rights. I’m serious, there is no economic justification to pay that kind of money. The cost benefit analysis is atrocious. If the social stigma wasn’t there, it’ll better just to pocket the money and invest in tangible assets.

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/i9PNn50iy4Q/hqdefault.jpg

  31. @J.Ross
    Men go into trades or smaller businesses because corporate and academia don't want men, except at the top, and signal this every chance they get.
    "Persuading women" means giving most women signals of emotion and conformity, not persuading.

    Men go into trades or smaller businesses because corporate and academia don’t want men, except at the top, and signal this every chance they get.

    Well, they DO want gay men and black men…

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    They want workers who are sure to conform, and semi-likely to have some competency, which is a category including (for lack of a better word) "minorities." They used to primarily want workers who knew what they were doing, and would rely on culture (in and out of the company) to handle what conformity now katyushas.
  32. @Bill P
    Steve, I wish you'd stop pumping up Harvard so much. While what you write about Harvard's endowments and skill in maximizing returns may be correct, we don't need more smart, Christian white boys there. If the school's products are any indication, the fewer the better.

    The school has had a Unitarian Universalist philosophy for nigh on 200 years. We don't need more of that -- we need much, much less.

    So let's think of reasons not to send the best and brightest of our children to Harvard instead of reinforcing its brand.

    Just off the top of my head, aesthetics comes to mind. What has Harvard done to make the world a more beautiful place?

    Maybe I'm an ignoramus, but I can't think of much at all. As for philosophy, they are run-of-the-mill nominalists, and have been for a very long time (not very diverse in that department). Theology? Nothing of any value.

    Harvard is inhuman. It produces money and power accumulating robots. Perhaps that's what it selects for. It's a dystopian institution.

    I understand that this is part of the point you're making, but it needs to be made explicit so that people understand.

    In my opinion, Harvard would be a far superior institution to today if it would but only ground its Unitarian philosophy in a respectable Unitarian faith such as Orthodox Judaism or Wahhabi Islam. Then at least there would be some consistency and a rebuttable theory that its dogma is beneficial to mankind, but the institution prefers to remain slippery, like a snake crawling through the grass, devouring and digesting its hypnotized victims only to excrete their soulless remains onto the rest of us.

    …we don’t need more smart, Christian white boys there

    I’d suggest the plan is for smart, Christian boys to wrest control of the place away from GloboHomo™.

    But in the grand battle with GloboHomo™, maybe prudence dictates that we marginalize the place and let it become a ghetto.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    It'd be interesting if some university would ever realize it can have its pick of smart white boys, the sort of people who, you know, built civilization. Money ball, you fools.
  33. I remember Paul:

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    Funny, he doesn't look Tough.

    What can I say? Picking low hanging fruit is a Jewish thing.
  34. BUT IS THIS GOOD FOR JEWS?

  35. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1182928941637668864

    Totally.

    Luckily, there is “open borders”, so the ladies won’t be alone.

    But who will fix the kitchen sink?

  36. @Kronos
    Yeah, guys aren’t going to marry chicks with massive debt.

    Irrelevant.

    Any halfway attractive, sociable young woman is already playing life on easy mode.

    There are so many attention-starved men out there that these young ladies can go far with a wink, a smile, and a low cut blouse.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    I wouldn’t be so sure. Many men and women have been priced out of the sexual marketplace. I believe Roosh V stated awhile back that the top 20% of good looking people are now having 80% of the fun. Women don’t need a breadwinner so much because of the State (Welfare,etc.) Men don’t need women so much because of pornography (it’s cheaper and safer.) Also, 1/3rd of Millennials are living at home while the majority of the other 2/3rds wish they were. Being a live-at-home college graduate or residing in a poor studio apartment doesn’t impress either sex. The bad economy has placed significant strain on the standard SMP graph. Men take more time to make money while women get increasingly older.

    https://i1.wp.com/therationalmale.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/smv_curve1.jpg?zoom=2&resize=490%2C240&ssl=1
  37. @Reg Cæsar

    Instead of tests, Tough argues, colleges should make admissions fairer by relying even more heavily on high school grades, essays, recommendations, and extracurriculars.
     
    In 1984 a Canadian grad student in a summer course told us Yanks that he couldn't begin to understand our reliance on standardized tests, which were rare at the time in his country. We asked him what they used in Canada.

    He said, "Your marks." (He was from the Ottawa Valley, where they have a weird way of pronouncing this word.)

    Canadian education must have been quite homogeneous back in the day!


    Just so you know, Paul Tough is Canadian, and only a few years younger than this guy.

    I’ve never understood using GPA or class ranking from HS as any sort of measure. If you go to a small private school and are fourth in your class our of 35 (outside the top 10%), how are you worse than someone who is 36th out of 400 at an inner city school?

    Back in the 80’s, I went to a HS out in the country. You know, one of those supposedly inferior schools with barely a budget. We had a kid transfer in from one of the state’s big cities. He was talking up how he got all A’s at his previous school. After the first grading period he was barely passing.

    • Replies: @Pericles

    We had a kid transfer in from one of the state’s big cities. He was talking up how he got all A’s at his previous school. After the first grading period he was barely passing.

     

    Some years ago I read an interesting article about how school differed between Ivy Leaguers and the working classes. You know, one side gets extensions and easy A:s, the other gets tough assignments, tough grading and washing out if you fail. It might have been in Higher Education. Too bad I've lost the link.
  38. One of the less remarked-upon gender gaps is in college attendance: Young men have fallen far behind young women. Males now make up only 43 percent of college students despite continuing to earn slightly higher average scores on college admission tests.

    As I have said before…it’s not quantity…it’s quality. Of the 57% females, how many study subjects of value? Also for consideration is the fact that colleges have an overabundance of unqualified ‘students’, both male and female.

    • Replies: @artichoke
    Every engineering school I know of seems to have a target to admit 50% women to its freshman class. And in every case that means the standard for the women is much lower than for the men. It also means the curriculum has to be less g-loaded (no wonder there's so much project work now) because most of those women would have flunked vs. the old standards.
  39. @Anonymous

    So, in the unlikely event that you get a chance to go to Harvard rather than to Directional State U., you might well consider it. For example, if you run into a rough patch, Harvard has the resources to help you avoid flunking out. And if you are thriving intellectually, Harvard has all sorts of delightful amenities for the best minds.

    In turn, some lucrative careers such as consulting and investment banking don’t recruit much at non-rich colleges.
     
    There is really no end to the ways in which nice things are better than non-nice things, is there?

    But there are some tools that flyover country nonelite yokels have in their armamentaria, if only they would use them. One would be not to elect Ivy Leaguers or T14 law graduates to political office. Hell, except for DA and Attorney General, why elect any law school graduates at all? I figure any lawyer running for public office is by definition probably a mediocre or poor attorney anyway, except maybe Oscar Goodman, on the theory the mob hires only good lawyers inasmuch as they have the money to do so.

    Another would be to incessantly hector their senators on making the government make those snooty firms governments have to deal with hire out of the better state schools or lose those lucrative contracts.

    Another would be to make sport of and ridicule the local big swinging dickettes of suburbia who brag about their college sportsball booterism and remind them in front of their friends that the real winners sponsor Victory! in stuff that really matters instead of sportsball. No one cares who invented basketball or what stadium most intimidates its visitors.

    I agree with your comments, but the main advantage of graduation from Ivy league schools is the good ol’ boys club. Those in power give a big hand up to their fellow alumni.

    • Replies: @Charon
    Especially 50 and 100 years ago, and of course forever in Hollywood movies.
  40. @Ed
    I really like this series. I think his folks helped him out a bit though.

    I stopped watching the series after three videos because it is immigrant propaganda. Even the white homosexual who makes $172k/year mentioned that he had a Lithuanian grandmother. That being said, I will watch if they profile a black person.

    As for Alex Sanchez, they certainly did leave something out. His father wasn’t mentioned in the video but is mentioned in the description box. The box also says that Alex dropped out of college. Someone in the comment section says it takes years to get into the linemen’s union and you need to know someone.

  41. @Ed
    I really like this series. I think his folks helped him out a bit though.

    “I think his folks helped him out a bit though.”

    Helped?

    “He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent.” In Chicagoland.

  42. @Triumph104
    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year. No college. He is a lineman with the electric company, owns a lawncare business with employees, and has three rental homes. He paid cash for two of the properties. He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent.

    https://youtu.be/6bi2XvD0eXw

    Good for Mr Sanchez but his salary is mostly due to productivity so the Sanchez lineman solution is probably not available for the masses. University is about occupying the army of the unemployed until they near 30 and likely won’t be a social problem that challenges the state. The trades that women are most represented in, nursing, teaching, and maybe law require university 4yr degrees, so it makes sense for them to go to University.

    It is also possible that to become a lineman requires family connections to enter into the profession.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Usually to become a lineman you find a job as a helper with a utility in the region that is hiring. They always are because it’s physical outdoor work and you have to be legal, speak and write standard English, and pass drug test. If you prove to be a good worker, show up on time, etc and can pass the test you will become an apprentice and in a few years a journeyman. Maybe it’s nepotistic in a few areas but generally not.

    You also need to have a Class A CDL and have basic electrical skills and theory. So a certain number of people decide high voltage, weather extremes and heights are not worth it and go into lesser paying but easier, safer work.
  43. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bill P
    Steve, I wish you'd stop pumping up Harvard so much. While what you write about Harvard's endowments and skill in maximizing returns may be correct, we don't need more smart, Christian white boys there. If the school's products are any indication, the fewer the better.

    The school has had a Unitarian Universalist philosophy for nigh on 200 years. We don't need more of that -- we need much, much less.

    So let's think of reasons not to send the best and brightest of our children to Harvard instead of reinforcing its brand.

    Just off the top of my head, aesthetics comes to mind. What has Harvard done to make the world a more beautiful place?

    Maybe I'm an ignoramus, but I can't think of much at all. As for philosophy, they are run-of-the-mill nominalists, and have been for a very long time (not very diverse in that department). Theology? Nothing of any value.

    Harvard is inhuman. It produces money and power accumulating robots. Perhaps that's what it selects for. It's a dystopian institution.

    I understand that this is part of the point you're making, but it needs to be made explicit so that people understand.

    In my opinion, Harvard would be a far superior institution to today if it would but only ground its Unitarian philosophy in a respectable Unitarian faith such as Orthodox Judaism or Wahhabi Islam. Then at least there would be some consistency and a rebuttable theory that its dogma is beneficial to mankind, but the institution prefers to remain slippery, like a snake crawling through the grass, devouring and digesting its hypnotized victims only to excrete their soulless remains onto the rest of us.

    Steve, I wish you’d stop pumping up Harvard so much. While what you write about Harvard’s endowments and skill in maximizing returns may be correct, we don’t need more smart, Christian white boys there. If the school’s products are any indication, the fewer the better.

    The school has had a Unitarian Universalist philosophy for nigh on 200 years. We don’t need more of that — we need much, much less.

    Harvard and Yale were Congregationalist (Puritan) not Unitarian Universalist. The latter broke off from the former but was never part of Harvard or Yale.

  44. Well, it’s just until 2017, but in most countries, females outnumber males in tertiary education:

    http://data.uis.unesco.org/index.aspx?queryid=165

    • Replies: @jim jones
    Plenty of people say that women only go to University to find a high quality husband
  45. @Anon
    Somewhat on topic:

    A band saw, a drill press and $2.3 million. College celebrates largest donation ever as ‘transformative’

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-10-14/cerritos-college-donation-woodworking

    https://www.whittierdailynews.com/2019/10/14/man-who-took-woodworking-classes-at-cerritos-college-leaves-scholarships-gift/

    https://www.loscerritosnews.net/2019/10/15/cerritos-college-alumnus-john-b-smith-leaves-2-3m-estate-gift-for-woodworking-scholarships/

    A modestly well-off guy towards the end of his life adds a bequest to the local community college to his will. But he carefully limits the money to the woodworking department. No gender studies professors can profit from it.

    Its a dependent grant, and it takes a while for his mother to die and the money to come to the college, but it ends up at $2.3 million plus some nice tools from the guy’s workshop.

    Meanwhile, the woodworking program seems to have become mostly female since the guy took classes himself.

    And the woodworking scholarship created from the guy's bequest is being tweaked to help increase diversity even more. After all, woodworking is oppressively male and hegemonically patriarchical, and that needs to change. What can’t the entire woodworking student body be female?

    Ignoring the wishes of donors is surprising common and has resulted in recent lawsuits. A clever legal trick is to get two colleges involved in such a way that each has a large financial incentive to monitor the activities of the other under the terms of the donation:

    When Colleges Defraud Donors

    https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2019/09/30/when-colleges-defraud-donors/


    The Mizzou misappropriation of funds allegation would never have arisen except for an extremely eccentric but highly perceptive precaution taken by Sherlock Hibbs –he appointed Hillsdale College as an overseer of the funds, giving them the power to assess, every four years, whether donor intent is being met –and, if it is not, to become the recipient of those funds. Hillsdale is known for its strong adherence to conservative or libertarian principles combined with a strong Christian tradition–it is opening a new spectacular $30 million chapel at a ceremony with Justice Clarence Thomas speaking in a few days. Hibbs felt that if there were hanky-panky in the use of funds at Mizzou, Hillsdale would protest. He was right.
     

    If I were him, instead of leaving $2.3 million to some school, I’d start my own.

    I’d find some unused commercial space and open my own woodworking school, offering lessons to the public on my own terms. There’s a cooking school in a strip mall near me, why not woodworking? It may not be able to get someone job placement, but at least I won’t have to deal with a bunch of SJW money-redistributers.

  46. @Kronos
    I say this from experience.

    There’s nothing sadder than a female math major applying the math (of compound interest) to her student loan debt almost after the fact. I dated her a few times and it was her Junior year. The debt wasn’t THAT bad, (below $50,000) but I was surprised she didn’t do it beforehand.

    I know a woman like that. Math major in college, watched her two daughters borrow 100k each to attend a 2nd tier university and smiled as each girl bought a new car upon landing her first job. Incomprehensible.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    I’m assuming the cars were leased or payed with installments?
  47. “In other words, this country’s most underprivileged reservoir of underutilized talent is Red State white boys.”

    That was true in 1940, when maybe 7 or 8% of white males attended college. The rich WASPs had created funds for poor Numinous Negroes to go to college, but the WASP Elites wanted poor white trash, whether Scots-Irish or Irish Catholic or German Catholic or Polish or Italian or Serbian or Czech, to remain poor with few if any opportunities.

    That is the WASP way: the vast majority of whites they rule get the shaft, all the time. And the WASP Elites LOVE their Numinous Negroes and their Jewish bankers and Arab oilmen.

  48. @Anon
    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.

    Honestly, is it even true that a high IQ rural white male going to Harvard can get significant financial aid? Doesn’t it tend to go to students in some “underrepresented” class? If so, not applying is a rational decision.

    A rural white male will not make the university more diverse, and will not trigger any significant donor activity (his parents are poor and he is a crapshoot and any income is far in the future).

    White females have voted to give preference to illegal and legal immigrants to this country, for the last 20-30 years. Obama and Clinton and every dem (and most repubs nowdays) on every downstream ticket is 100 percent for affirmative action–which as everyone knows, does not just mean ‘descendants of slaves”. High end Africans from the Ivory Coast who moved here 10 years ago, can bank on their “black” children getting preference in everything from college entrances, to jobs (public or private sector), and if they are business owners, government contracts at the local, state and federal level.

    Similarly, there are tens of millions of “Hispanic/Latinos” living in the United States, who have no historical or cultural claim to any disenfranchisement, who literally walk into the United States and are “gifted” affirmative action in all the above. White heritage Americans, of all types, not just liberals with one kid living in urban areas, have repeatedly voted for the interests of outgroups, even though who had no connection whatsoever to any perceived historical wrongs. Descendants of slaves were one thing, people from the rest of the world are another.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  49. @Triumph104
    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year. No college. He is a lineman with the electric company, owns a lawncare business with employees, and has three rental homes. He paid cash for two of the properties. He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent.

    https://youtu.be/6bi2XvD0eXw

    He is a lineman for the county, and he drives the main roads.

    While “Wichita Lineman” was performed by Glen Campbell, it was written by Jimmy Webb, who, in addition to writing The Worst That Could Happen, also compared love ending to cake left out in the rain.

  50. @Reg Cæsar

    Instead of tests, Tough argues, colleges should make admissions fairer by relying even more heavily on high school grades, essays, recommendations, and extracurriculars.
     
    In 1984 a Canadian grad student in a summer course told us Yanks that he couldn't begin to understand our reliance on standardized tests, which were rare at the time in his country. We asked him what they used in Canada.

    He said, "Your marks." (He was from the Ottawa Valley, where they have a weird way of pronouncing this word.)

    Canadian education must have been quite homogeneous back in the day!


    Just so you know, Paul Tough is Canadian, and only a few years younger than this guy.

    If he was from the Ottawa valley he said “marrrks” with a hard r ?

    I don’t know about education in the states but the post 1960s educational system in the UK (up until the 90s anyway, not sure after that) was more rigorous than in Canada probably because of examinations that were marked by external examiners. In Canada, in high school there was a tendency to consciously or unconsiously use marks as a way of soft discipline, by giving marks for effort or attitude. As well as this many of the teachers were not that smart themselves and so at the high school level were not capable of designing a curriculum.

    In the UK, there were smart boys with discipline problems who could do well in the system. This was much less likely to happen in Canada.

  51. @Anon
    Somewhat on topic:

    A band saw, a drill press and $2.3 million. College celebrates largest donation ever as ‘transformative’

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-10-14/cerritos-college-donation-woodworking

    https://www.whittierdailynews.com/2019/10/14/man-who-took-woodworking-classes-at-cerritos-college-leaves-scholarships-gift/

    https://www.loscerritosnews.net/2019/10/15/cerritos-college-alumnus-john-b-smith-leaves-2-3m-estate-gift-for-woodworking-scholarships/

    A modestly well-off guy towards the end of his life adds a bequest to the local community college to his will. But he carefully limits the money to the woodworking department. No gender studies professors can profit from it.

    Its a dependent grant, and it takes a while for his mother to die and the money to come to the college, but it ends up at $2.3 million plus some nice tools from the guy’s workshop.

    Meanwhile, the woodworking program seems to have become mostly female since the guy took classes himself.

    And the woodworking scholarship created from the guy's bequest is being tweaked to help increase diversity even more. After all, woodworking is oppressively male and hegemonically patriarchical, and that needs to change. What can’t the entire woodworking student body be female?

    Ignoring the wishes of donors is surprising common and has resulted in recent lawsuits. A clever legal trick is to get two colleges involved in such a way that each has a large financial incentive to monitor the activities of the other under the terms of the donation:

    When Colleges Defraud Donors

    https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2019/09/30/when-colleges-defraud-donors/


    The Mizzou misappropriation of funds allegation would never have arisen except for an extremely eccentric but highly perceptive precaution taken by Sherlock Hibbs –he appointed Hillsdale College as an overseer of the funds, giving them the power to assess, every four years, whether donor intent is being met –and, if it is not, to become the recipient of those funds. Hillsdale is known for its strong adherence to conservative or libertarian principles combined with a strong Christian tradition–it is opening a new spectacular $30 million chapel at a ceremony with Justice Clarence Thomas speaking in a few days. Hibbs felt that if there were hanky-panky in the use of funds at Mizzou, Hillsdale would protest. He was right.
     

    This is just stupid. Hibbs had no reason to think Missouri was going to live up to its promises and hire Austrian school economists with his money. Why not give the money to Hillsdale outright in the beginning and send Missouri a letter telling them why? If donors cut the school out completely that might, eventually bring some small changes in honoring donor requests they would like to ignore. Giving them the money and putting someone else in the position to sue just results in inevitable legal costs and wasted time. This may self correct, as I doubt future generations will have near the nostalgia pull to their alma maters as older generations do today.

    • Agree: Clyde
  52. As a person who went to high school in some boondock state, this article gels with my experience: At my high school, nearly all of the small number of people who applied to Ivy League schools were quite strong candidates; people who were not qualified self-selected away and did not apply. This led me, as a high school student, to vastly overestimate the competitiveness of getting into an Ivy League school. After all, if Harvard manages to turn away nine out of every ten applicants from an already highly-selected applicant pool, what sort of qualifications does one have to have to be the one that gets in?

    I ultimately did get in and attended an Ivy League school. And then I realized that my overestimation of the competitiveness of Ivy League admissions was the product of a big cultural difference between the school I went to and the schools from which the Ivy League draws the bulk of its students. The students at schools like Scarsdale High and Thomas Jefferson High do not self-select. On the contrary, they rate very highly in self-regard, even if they are nothing special academically.

  53. @Anonymous

    So, in the unlikely event that you get a chance to go to Harvard rather than to Directional State U., you might well consider it. For example, if you run into a rough patch, Harvard has the resources to help you avoid flunking out. And if you are thriving intellectually, Harvard has all sorts of delightful amenities for the best minds.

    In turn, some lucrative careers such as consulting and investment banking don’t recruit much at non-rich colleges.
     
    There is really no end to the ways in which nice things are better than non-nice things, is there?

    But there are some tools that flyover country nonelite yokels have in their armamentaria, if only they would use them. One would be not to elect Ivy Leaguers or T14 law graduates to political office. Hell, except for DA and Attorney General, why elect any law school graduates at all? I figure any lawyer running for public office is by definition probably a mediocre or poor attorney anyway, except maybe Oscar Goodman, on the theory the mob hires only good lawyers inasmuch as they have the money to do so.

    Another would be to incessantly hector their senators on making the government make those snooty firms governments have to deal with hire out of the better state schools or lose those lucrative contracts.

    Another would be to make sport of and ridicule the local big swinging dickettes of suburbia who brag about their college sportsball booterism and remind them in front of their friends that the real winners sponsor Victory! in stuff that really matters instead of sportsball. No one cares who invented basketball or what stadium most intimidates its visitors.

    “One would be not to elect Ivy Leaguers or T14 law graduates to political office. ”

    Seems to me that the Ivy Leaguers are the ones always telling us the Second Amendment doesn’t mean crap in their judicial decisions, so why don’t we stop nominating them so as to get people who don’t think like your prototypical Coastal Communists?

    • Replies: @anonn
    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists, ALL of whom went an Ivy League law school: Harvard (Roberts, Scalia) or Yale (Thomas, Alito). (Kennedy went to both Harvard and Stanford).

    Since conservatives can't honestly win elections anymore, practically everything that the conservative movement has achieved in recent years has been achieved by 5 lawyers who went to Ivy League schools.
  54. White Core America is now putting forth the LARRY LEADBELLY plan to increase the number of White Male Students on university and college campuses. Any imputation that the LARRY LEADBELLY plan is inspired by the Lilly Ledbetter stuff is completely and totally off the mark.

    White Core America will use the power of the LARRY LEADBELLY law to immediately jump up the number of White Male students on university and college campuses.

    These White Male students will form a White Core America militia and they will be heavily trained and disciplined to bring FREE SPEECH to college and university campuses.

    If a Scottish mutton head who lives in Iowa wants to deliver a speech on a college campus, and some Evil White Thugs want to stop his FREE SPEECH, the White Core America militia will use every legal means to make sure FREE SPEECH is protected and honor and decency prevail.

    Obviously, some White Males don’t like school of any kind, except for when a teacher in a blue bathing suit is dancing on a table in a Rock video, so to bump up their wages in the workforce, White Core America will legally deport 50 or 60 million foreigners to tighten up the labor pool to boost wages for those young White Males who want loot and not more school.

    Tweets from 2014:

  55. @Reg Cæsar

    Instead of tests, Tough argues, colleges should make admissions fairer by relying even more heavily on high school grades, essays, recommendations, and extracurriculars.
     
    In 1984 a Canadian grad student in a summer course told us Yanks that he couldn't begin to understand our reliance on standardized tests, which were rare at the time in his country. We asked him what they used in Canada.

    He said, "Your marks." (He was from the Ottawa Valley, where they have a weird way of pronouncing this word.)

    Canadian education must have been quite homogeneous back in the day!


    Just so you know, Paul Tough is Canadian, and only a few years younger than this guy.

    “These aren’t standardized tests, these are his grades.”

  56. @Reg Cæsar

    Instead of tests, Tough argues, colleges should make admissions fairer by relying even more heavily on high school grades, essays, recommendations, and extracurriculars.
     
    In 1984 a Canadian grad student in a summer course told us Yanks that he couldn't begin to understand our reliance on standardized tests, which were rare at the time in his country. We asked him what they used in Canada.

    He said, "Your marks." (He was from the Ottawa Valley, where they have a weird way of pronouncing this word.)

    Canadian education must have been quite homogeneous back in the day!


    Just so you know, Paul Tough is Canadian, and only a few years younger than this guy.

    Every other country uses a standardised set of end of school examinations. Though some institutions in Britain do require a personal interview process and referees. It’s only the US (And TIL Canada) that uses school grades and subjective matters like personal essays so heavily. Though there are debates in many countries to reduce the exam burden and use projects etc but this is controversial as exams are arguably more fair to people from poorer backgrounds/suffering from depression than using projects.

    And as Steve has aptly documented, this practice became endemic in the US due to the ethnic conflict between America’s old elites and Jews which was then continued by the Jews themselves once they were in power. Like the arcane system of reporting taxable income, (Only the very very wealthy with lots of different income and asset types would ever consider hiring the services of a tax lawyer outside the US) it’s a uniquely American phenomena.

  57. @Jesse
    The sex gap in college attendance has to do with the selection process for lower skilled careers.

    Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc.

    You make good points, but at some point you're going to have to stop the carping on white boys. It's just as divisive as the current crop of feminists. At some point you'll have to persuade women.

    Persuading women is completely a question of dominance. Sexual and racial equality has been catastrophic for White men and explains much of the war on Whites. Whip women registering disgust at men not just their equals but other men.

  58. @Bill P
    Steve, I wish you'd stop pumping up Harvard so much. While what you write about Harvard's endowments and skill in maximizing returns may be correct, we don't need more smart, Christian white boys there. If the school's products are any indication, the fewer the better.

    The school has had a Unitarian Universalist philosophy for nigh on 200 years. We don't need more of that -- we need much, much less.

    So let's think of reasons not to send the best and brightest of our children to Harvard instead of reinforcing its brand.

    Just off the top of my head, aesthetics comes to mind. What has Harvard done to make the world a more beautiful place?

    Maybe I'm an ignoramus, but I can't think of much at all. As for philosophy, they are run-of-the-mill nominalists, and have been for a very long time (not very diverse in that department). Theology? Nothing of any value.

    Harvard is inhuman. It produces money and power accumulating robots. Perhaps that's what it selects for. It's a dystopian institution.

    I understand that this is part of the point you're making, but it needs to be made explicit so that people understand.

    In my opinion, Harvard would be a far superior institution to today if it would but only ground its Unitarian philosophy in a respectable Unitarian faith such as Orthodox Judaism or Wahhabi Islam. Then at least there would be some consistency and a rebuttable theory that its dogma is beneficial to mankind, but the institution prefers to remain slippery, like a snake crawling through the grass, devouring and digesting its hypnotized victims only to excrete their soulless remains onto the rest of us.

    Harvard is the greatest Financial Services career mill the world has ever known. IE, Harvard is the greatest rentier parasite generator the world has ever known.

    If Harvard ever dropped their standards it wouldn’t effect it’s functioning largely at all, except in highly technical fields. The general student pop of humanities and ‘business’ could do the jobs they are being recruited for just as well with a much lower IQ, it was only their predecessors who needed to be smart to set up those institutions they go on to work at and monopolise.

    It would, however, hurt their brand, which is where their power and the ultimately comes from. But to say that modern Harvard does anything better than take smart people and funnel the bulk of them into finance would be a lie.

  59. Referring to the group who were likely cheated out of the full high school education they deserved as “inflated SAT” betrays quite a bit of resentment for Mr. Tough.

    How, exactly, did their objective test scores get inflated? Seems more likely their subjective grades were inflated.

  60. I used to know someone whose career goal was to get a blue-collar job at the docks as an operator of the cranes that load and unload shipping containers. If you have the connections to get into the Longshoreman’s union and then into a container crane operator job you can make $230k a year without all the scrambling with side businesses. In the remake of War of the Worlds Tom Cruise played a container crane operator. His character was portrayed as a poor working stiff just scraping by, whose wife had divorced him for an attorney, and taken their really annoying pre-teen daughter with her. In reality an attorney has to have a really good practice or a corporate executive position to make as much money as one of those blue-collar crane operators.

    • Replies: @black sea
    Yes, those jobs pay very well, though they are few and far between.

    An even better option would be to become a harbor pilot. Average income: $400,000 per year. And a change of scenery.

  61. @Anon
    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.

    Honestly, is it even true that a high IQ rural white male going to Harvard can get significant financial aid? Doesn’t it tend to go to students in some “underrepresented” class? If so, not applying is a rational decision.

    A rural white male will not make the university more diverse, and will not trigger any significant donor activity (his parents are poor and he is a crapshoot and any income is far in the future).

    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.

    The girls are nicer at Directional State. Also, two-to-four years’ experience and income in plumbing, HVAC, etc, are nothing to laugh at. Why put $50,000 per annum on credit just to be mocked?

    A point made in countries with an active all-male draft, from Singapore to Finland, is that young men lose valuable time to their competitors, both female and the luckier men.

    This effect can be flipped around by capable fellows going right into remunerative degree-free work.

    • Replies: @Anon
    You may be right on the facts, but I don’t think that 17-year-olds are thinking like that. How would they know anything about girl attributes by university? And how many college kids thinking of HVAC are going to college? How many college kids capable of being accepted by an Ivy are thinking of HVAC? It might be the smart thing to do, but it’s not in the minds of 17-year-old smart boys.

    I applied to a range of colleges, many years ago, but I didn’t think I’d get into the Ivy or Stanford, and I did it as kind of a flier, since I didn’t think we could afford it. As it so happened, my parents got divorced just in time for me to be part of my mother’s zero income household, and UCLA offered me an all-expenses-paid Regents Scholarship (plus priority class assignment before the hoi polloi, free parking, guaranteed dorm assignment, faculty advisor, etc.). It never occurred to me that I might have had that kind of an offer from an Ivy. And as I mentioned above, I am not sure that such support is to be had by poor white kids even today. Does Harvard pay full freight for poor white boys today? I think not, but if they do the knowledge of that is not part of the zeitgeist, which would account for a lower percentage of applications from poor flyover white boys.
  62. @Triumph104
    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year. No college. He is a lineman with the electric company, owns a lawncare business with employees, and has three rental homes. He paid cash for two of the properties. He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent.

    https://youtu.be/6bi2XvD0eXw

    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year… owns a lawncare business with employees…

    A literal dirty Sanchez! As in getting his hands dirty.

    I’m assuming he’s American. Are his workers? This is West Chicago.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    "This is West Chicago."

    West Chicano.
  63. @Alfa158
    I used to know someone whose career goal was to get a blue-collar job at the docks as an operator of the cranes that load and unload shipping containers. If you have the connections to get into the Longshoreman’s union and then into a container crane operator job you can make $230k a year without all the scrambling with side businesses. In the remake of War of the Worlds Tom Cruise played a container crane operator. His character was portrayed as a poor working stiff just scraping by, whose wife had divorced him for an attorney, and taken their really annoying pre-teen daughter with her. In reality an attorney has to have a really good practice or a corporate executive position to make as much money as one of those blue-collar crane operators.

    Yes, those jobs pay very well, though they are few and far between.

    An even better option would be to become a harbor pilot. Average income: $400,000 per year. And a change of scenery.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    True, and harbor pilots work a lot less, but they are scarcer and I believe those are essentially hereditary positions. ( also in the event the draft is activated, harbor pilot is one of the professions specifically named in the militia code as being exempt, and therefore you can’t get inducted into military service. )
    Custodian in some institutions is another blue-collar job that is great. Years ago the WSJ ran a story about the custodian at Carnegie Hall who made $400k a year. It’s a concert hall, not an opera house so there isn’t even any scenery to build and move like a carpenter or stagehand would. This guy’s job was literally to set out the folding chairs and podiums before each concert, wait around until the concert is over, then put them away again. Who knows what the pay is now.
    Whenever the Opera would ask me for donations, my generosity would be tempered by the fact that the union stage hands were probably making more than I did.
  64. @Anonymous

    So, in the unlikely event that you get a chance to go to Harvard rather than to Directional State U., you might well consider it. For example, if you run into a rough patch, Harvard has the resources to help you avoid flunking out. And if you are thriving intellectually, Harvard has all sorts of delightful amenities for the best minds.

    In turn, some lucrative careers such as consulting and investment banking don’t recruit much at non-rich colleges.
     
    There is really no end to the ways in which nice things are better than non-nice things, is there?

    But there are some tools that flyover country nonelite yokels have in their armamentaria, if only they would use them. One would be not to elect Ivy Leaguers or T14 law graduates to political office. Hell, except for DA and Attorney General, why elect any law school graduates at all? I figure any lawyer running for public office is by definition probably a mediocre or poor attorney anyway, except maybe Oscar Goodman, on the theory the mob hires only good lawyers inasmuch as they have the money to do so.

    Another would be to incessantly hector their senators on making the government make those snooty firms governments have to deal with hire out of the better state schools or lose those lucrative contracts.

    Another would be to make sport of and ridicule the local big swinging dickettes of suburbia who brag about their college sportsball booterism and remind them in front of their friends that the real winners sponsor Victory! in stuff that really matters instead of sportsball. No one cares who invented basketball or what stadium most intimidates its visitors.

    It’s staggering, for example, that all of the Supreme Court justices are either Harvard or Yale educated. (I believe Ginsburg also attended Columbia). But Grassley, from Iowa, just sits as chairman of that Senate Judicary Committee and never agitates for any law school origin diversity for Supreme Court candidates.

    • Replies: @Walsh2
    Based on current and recent crop of Harvard/Yale Law grads, if that trend continues, i.e. SCOTUS made up of primarily Harvard/Yale grads, this country will be past the point of no return.
  65. I think Steve has noted in the past that female domination of an institution or career field is an indicator that it is losing prestige. Men go where the money and challenge is.

  66. @Triumph104
    American Indian/Alaska Native now score lower on the SAT than blacks. More underrepresented minorities took the exam in 2018-2019.


    American Indian/Alaska Native
    Total 912 Reading/Writing 461 Math 451

    Black
    Total 933 Reading/Writing 476 Math 457

    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2019/09/24/minority-and-first-generation-sat-scores-fall-behind

    That is a big swing. The gap was almost the opposite in 2017:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/27/scores-new-sat-show-large-gaps-race-and-ethnicity

    American Indian/Alaska Native
    Total 963 Reading/Writing 486 Math 477

    Black
    Total 941 Reading/Writing 479 Math 462

    Any idea of the percentage taking the test for each group?

    It was a fairly smooth change since they were almost at parity in 2018:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/10/29/sat-scores-are-gaps-remain-significant-among-racial-and-ethnic-groups

    And take a look at the gap in 2006!
    https://www.jbhe.com/features/53_SAT.html

    Here is a longer series of data (going back to 1986-87):
    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_226.10.asp

    What is happening with the American Indians?

    • Replies: @Coag
    American Indians have the IQ of West Africans and the melancholy of Rust Belt whites.
    , @JimB
    It's almost as if tribal ethnic groups without a history of civilization do worse in skills needed to create a civilization.
  67. @res
    That is a big swing. The gap was almost the opposite in 2017:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/27/scores-new-sat-show-large-gaps-race-and-ethnicity

    American Indian/Alaska Native
    Total 963 Reading/Writing 486 Math 477

    Black
    Total 941 Reading/Writing 479 Math 462

    Any idea of the percentage taking the test for each group?

    It was a fairly smooth change since they were almost at parity in 2018:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/10/29/sat-scores-are-gaps-remain-significant-among-racial-and-ethnic-groups

    And take a look at the gap in 2006!
    https://www.jbhe.com/features/53_SAT.html

    https://www.jbhe.com/images/issue53/SAT3.gif

    Here is a longer series of data (going back to 1986-87):
    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_226.10.asp

    What is happening with the American Indians?

    American Indians have the IQ of West Africans and the melancholy of Rust Belt whites.

  68. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1182928941637668864

    Heaven forbid a woman marry a “less educated” man

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Women are attracted to status the same way men are attracted to physical beauty. It’s well noted that women very rarely “marry down.” Currently the college status symbol is in limbo. If you become a electrician and make $100,000, your still unlikely to enter the middle-upper class marriage pool. But college is becoming increasingly valueless and a detriment to financial health. So the electrical job might entice women toward you in the next 15 years.
    , @Corvinus
    "Heaven forbid a woman marry a “less educated” man"

    Indeed. It's dysgenic. Get woke, man!
    , @JimB

    Heaven forbid a woman marry a “less educated” man
     
    High IQ men (top 1%) are almost always good providers. High IQ men with education will probably be outstanding in their field and get the best paying jobs, while high IQ men without education can still be outstanding earners because they aren't snobs about how to make money. On the other hand "Educated" men may not be good providers if they are educated to do things that don't pay much, like journalism or social work.

    Women should decide accordingly in mate selection. Time to invent the MSAT: Mate Selection Aptitude Test. There could be MSATF and MSATM versions which specifically test what the sexes are known to be good at. That way there are no surprises when your kid ends up going to Arizona State and starring in a porn film.

    , @Rosie

    Heaven forbid a woman marry a “less educated” man
     
    Contra the hypergamy hoaxers, more and more women are doing just that.

    https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/dn_marry_down.jpg
  69. @Anon
    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.

    Honestly, is it even true that a high IQ rural white male going to Harvard can get significant financial aid? Doesn’t it tend to go to students in some “underrepresented” class? If so, not applying is a rational decision.

    A rural white male will not make the university more diverse, and will not trigger any significant donor activity (his parents are poor and he is a crapshoot and any income is far in the future).

    From my experience many smart rural young men choose engineering in college, the ones who wash out, accounting or business. And an undergraduate degree in engineering from an ABET accredited state university will result in a pretty nice middle class life in low-cost flyover country. So I think some of the lack of rural white men at the prestige institutions is simply the fact they don’t care about the Ivy League much. Of course Ivy League degrees will open many more doors, but you have to care about the doors in the first place.

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    When and undergraduate degree in engineering from an ABET accredited state university does not support a pretty nice middle class life in low-cost flyerover country, you get more votes for Donald Trump.
  70. Do these people really not realize that a persistent mismatch between actual talent and aptitude on the one hand and opportunities and education on the other will be the end of us?

    Do the Chinese do this? (I suspect that Han are favored, but not to the extent that others are excluded from earned opportunities in favor of Han).

    • Replies: @Altai
    The whole world largely operated under this for thousands of years and the world didn't end. Indeed most raw intellectual potential was utterly 'wasted' until very very recently. Meritocracy is oversold and has largely brought about the situation that the terms coiner predicted with the added bonus of overeducation causing longer generation time and lower total fertility among the more intelligent.
    , @Triumph104
    China has practiced affirmative action in college admissions since 1949.

    Minority students applying to universities receive bonus points on the National Higher Education Entrance Examination (gaokao). In 2009 authorities in Chongqing uncovered 31 high school students pretending to be members of a minority group in order to gain test points, and in 2011 Inner Mongolia authorities uncovered about 800 students pretending to be members of a minority group. There is a system of universities exclusively for minority students.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_China
  71. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1182928941637668864

    The possibility that men are not interested in overeducated leftover women is never considered. It’s always cast as men falling short of women’s requirements. Somehow the chap in the graphic is nervous that the aging princess with the mortar board, student debt, and dwindling fertility thinks he is not a worthy marital prospect.

    • Agree: Cloudbuster
    • Replies: @Kronos
    China calls it “yellow pearl” syndrome.
  72. @Reg Cæsar

    Instead of tests, Tough argues, colleges should make admissions fairer by relying even more heavily on high school grades, essays, recommendations, and extracurriculars.
     
    In 1984 a Canadian grad student in a summer course told us Yanks that he couldn't begin to understand our reliance on standardized tests, which were rare at the time in his country. We asked him what they used in Canada.

    He said, "Your marks." (He was from the Ottawa Valley, where they have a weird way of pronouncing this word.)

    Canadian education must have been quite homogeneous back in the day!


    Just so you know, Paul Tough is Canadian, and only a few years younger than this guy.

    Yer maiyrks!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Yer maiyrks!
     
    You get an A for effort.


    http://www.photos-public-domain.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/a-plus-school-letter-grade-600x400.jpg
  73. @Reg Cæsar

    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year... owns a lawncare business with employees...
     
    A literal dirty Sanchez! As in getting his hands dirty.

    I'm assuming he's American. Are his workers? This is West Chicago.

    “This is West Chicago.”

    West Chicano.

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Mike Zwick
    @Joe Stalin, that is its nickname!
  74. @J.Ross
    You could say that college is the beginning of a training process for medical doctors but a piece of jewelry for most graduates, and even those students who are receiving education do not leave college ready to work.

    You could say that college is the beginning of a training process for medical doctors

    If students know this, they should enter a six year joint BS/MD program. It limits college choice, but a premed has already severely narrowed his range of interests. I suspect accelerated students are more likely to get a prestigious internship in medicine later. And the total education cost includes two, not four years of medical school.

  75. @Anon
    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.

    Honestly, is it even true that a high IQ rural white male going to Harvard can get significant financial aid? Doesn’t it tend to go to students in some “underrepresented” class? If so, not applying is a rational decision.

    A rural white male will not make the university more diverse, and will not trigger any significant donor activity (his parents are poor and he is a crapshoot and any income is far in the future).

    “I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.”

    I agree. The wealthiest colleges can afford to give a whole lot of aid. The aid has always been there, but lately getting more “first-generation college students” has become a big thing at elite colleges. That push, and that financial aid, may not yet be well-known.

  76. Anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.

    Honestly, is it even true that a high IQ rural white male going to Harvard can get significant financial aid? Doesn’t it tend to go to students in some “underrepresented” class? If so, not applying is a rational decision.

    A rural white male will not make the university more diverse, and will not trigger any significant donor activity (his parents are poor and he is a crapshoot and any income is far in the future).

    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available

    I think there are several factors at work:

    -Natural desire to be closer to family/high school friends
    -Desire to participate in the Big State U culture which has probably surrounded the boy from an early age
    -As you say, perceived lower cost of Big State U and lack of awareness of financial aid at more “elite” schools
    -Lack of awareness of opportunities that exist for HYP graduates versus those from Big State U (what percentage of high school seniors have even the faintest idea what “McKinsey” is?)
    -A not-unjustified fear that he will be surrounded by snobs and discriminated against for his flyover-state background
    -Amongst Southerners, a fear of cold weather

    Another factor is simply a feeling of inaccessibility. The flyover 18 year old has probably never met anyone who attended Harvard. Harvard is an abstract thing for him; it might as well be Oxford, or be on the moon. An HYP graduate I used to know from a more-privileged background made the analogy that it would be like her joining the Army: yes, she’s aware that there’s this thing called the Army and that people do join it, but it’s so remote from her own experience that it just doesn’t feel like a “real” thing people do.

  77. Anon[280] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.
     
    The girls are nicer at Directional State. Also, two-to-four years' experience and income in plumbing, HVAC, etc, are nothing to laugh at. Why put $50,000 per annum on credit just to be mocked?

    A point made in countries with an active all-male draft, from Singapore to Finland, is that young men lose valuable time to their competitors, both female and the luckier men.

    This effect can be flipped around by capable fellows going right into remunerative degree-free work.

    You may be right on the facts, but I don’t think that 17-year-olds are thinking like that. How would they know anything about girl attributes by university? And how many college kids thinking of HVAC are going to college? How many college kids capable of being accepted by an Ivy are thinking of HVAC? It might be the smart thing to do, but it’s not in the minds of 17-year-old smart boys.

    I applied to a range of colleges, many years ago, but I didn’t think I’d get into the Ivy or Stanford, and I did it as kind of a flier, since I didn’t think we could afford it. As it so happened, my parents got divorced just in time for me to be part of my mother’s zero income household, and UCLA offered me an all-expenses-paid Regents Scholarship (plus priority class assignment before the hoi polloi, free parking, guaranteed dorm assignment, faculty advisor, etc.). It never occurred to me that I might have had that kind of an offer from an Ivy. And as I mentioned above, I am not sure that such support is to be had by poor white kids even today. Does Harvard pay full freight for poor white boys today? I think not, but if they do the knowledge of that is not part of the zeitgeist, which would account for a lower percentage of applications from poor flyover white boys.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    Many of the elite colleges will give a full ride (tuition, room and board) to anyone from a family under a certain income level, usually around $55k or $60 k.

    After that, the college will give a graduated scholarship. For example, Chicago has free tuition but full price room and board at about $120k. Some other elite schools will have free tuition and partial room and board costs at that level.

    One of my kids goes to a fairly prestigious college, but not at the Ivy or equivalent. The list price is over $70k, but with financial aid it is cheaper than in state tuition at U of Wisconsin. Had my kid been at an Ivy, it would have been free tuition and only pay for room and board.

    One of my kids got a full academic scholarship somewhere, pays tuition and fees, and is also a resident assistant so the dorm is free as well. Also gets a few hundred a month in food costs.
    , @donvonburg
    If you can get into an Ivy, you would be foolish to go into HVAC, simply because it's a physically tough trade and you will be a physical wreck by 45-50. Even guys who start their own business and hire other people wind up out in the field enough, changing out a Copeland on the roof of a supermarket two hours away from home at 4 am after a full day at work and then coaching Little League.

    And basically it's boring if you have an IQ much over 120. Basically you are moving heat from one place to another, generating it by burning stuff or with electric elements, and moving the heated or cooled air around.

    Going to a trade instead of Middle State U on the other hand makes a lot of sense for some. But keep in mind that most trades are tough on the body after twenty years in. I worked with these guys who were my age or just a little older who had been in the field for twenty years and they were pretty hobbled.
    , @Jim Don Bob

    Does Harvard pay full freight for poor white boys today?
     
    A middle class not-legacy kid in my daughter's 2007 high school class got a full ride to Harvard.
  78. @Bill P
    Steve, I wish you'd stop pumping up Harvard so much. While what you write about Harvard's endowments and skill in maximizing returns may be correct, we don't need more smart, Christian white boys there. If the school's products are any indication, the fewer the better.

    The school has had a Unitarian Universalist philosophy for nigh on 200 years. We don't need more of that -- we need much, much less.

    So let's think of reasons not to send the best and brightest of our children to Harvard instead of reinforcing its brand.

    Just off the top of my head, aesthetics comes to mind. What has Harvard done to make the world a more beautiful place?

    Maybe I'm an ignoramus, but I can't think of much at all. As for philosophy, they are run-of-the-mill nominalists, and have been for a very long time (not very diverse in that department). Theology? Nothing of any value.

    Harvard is inhuman. It produces money and power accumulating robots. Perhaps that's what it selects for. It's a dystopian institution.

    I understand that this is part of the point you're making, but it needs to be made explicit so that people understand.

    In my opinion, Harvard would be a far superior institution to today if it would but only ground its Unitarian philosophy in a respectable Unitarian faith such as Orthodox Judaism or Wahhabi Islam. Then at least there would be some consistency and a rebuttable theory that its dogma is beneficial to mankind, but the institution prefers to remain slippery, like a snake crawling through the grass, devouring and digesting its hypnotized victims only to excrete their soulless remains onto the rest of us.

    Are there any institutions that meet your seal of approval?

  79. @AndrewR
    Heaven forbid a woman marry a "less educated" man

    Women are attracted to status the same way men are attracted to physical beauty. It’s well noted that women very rarely “marry down.” Currently the college status symbol is in limbo. If you become a electrician and make $100,000, your still unlikely to enter the middle-upper class marriage pool. But college is becoming increasingly valueless and a detriment to financial health. So the electrical job might entice women toward you in the next 15 years.

  80. “I, Paul Tough, a Canadian reporter who is inexplicably wealthy and splits his time between Austin and The Hamptons, am here to say that Caroline Hoxby, a black American from Shaker Heights, OH has no clue about education in this country. Ignore her, we need to abolish the SAT, and make sure that the only white people who attend elite colleges are well-connected bugpeople.”

  81. @Jesse
    The sex gap in college attendance has to do with the selection process for lower skilled careers.

    Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc.

    You make good points, but at some point you're going to have to stop the carping on white boys. It's just as divisive as the current crop of feminists. At some point you'll have to persuade women.

    Income wise those lower-skilled carpenters, plumbers, electricians etc., are often making more money than the college graduates unless they get into a very lucrative profession like medicine or law. Most college grads do not go into medicine or law and the tech professionals are gravitating away from hiring whites and going more and more with Asian hires.

    So this too is changing. Many things that used to be conventional wisdom no longer hold true.

  82. @AndrewR
    Heaven forbid a woman marry a "less educated" man

    “Heaven forbid a woman marry a “less educated” man”

    Indeed. It’s dysgenic. Get woke, man!

  83. @Elmer T. Jones
    The possibility that men are not interested in overeducated leftover women is never considered. It's always cast as men falling short of women's requirements. Somehow the chap in the graphic is nervous that the aging princess with the mortar board, student debt, and dwindling fertility thinks he is not a worthy marital prospect.

    China calls it “yellow pearl” syndrome.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    China calls it “yellow pearl” syndrome.

     

    https://gartic.com.br/imgs/mural/sh/shinylighting/yellow-pearl.png
  84. @Kronos
    It’s noted. Want me to change “chicks” to “women” while I’m at it?

    Please change “chicks” to “chix”.

    • LOL: AnotherDad
  85. @Bardon Kaldian
    Well, it's just until 2017, but in most countries, females outnumber males in tertiary education:

    http://data.uis.unesco.org/index.aspx?queryid=165

    Plenty of people say that women only go to University to find a high quality husband

    • Replies: @William Badwhite

    go to University to find a high quality husband
     
    aka "the Mrs. degree"
    , @anon
    Plenty of people are wrong, probably mentally stuck in the 1980's.

    The average age of an American woman at first marriage is 27.
    , @Redneck farmer
    Our vet was happy one herd check. His wife had hoped their youngest daughter "finds a man".
    "I was like,' Yes, thank God she said it, cause if I said it, I'd be a f*****, sexist, as*****!'"
  86. @JimB
    Seems to me college these days neither makes nor breaks you. In college, students get to dial the difficulty of their academic work up or down by switching majors. Everyone learns their trade either on the job after college or in graduate school. So college doesn’t really much matter. Of course, if a student drops out of college $100K in debt, that sucks.

    I dropped out of a non-prestigious Cal State University after my freshman year to join the U.S. Coast Guard. It was a good decision.

    • Replies: @JimB

    I dropped out of a non-prestigious Cal State University after my freshman year to join the U.S. Coast Guard. It was a good decision.
     
    A good decision, indeed. Retirement at 45 with full pension, followed by a second career restoring classic muscle cars or making wine. What's not to like?
  87. @MikeatMikedotMike
    I remember Paul:

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/images-diverse/uploads/2012/09/090612_Paul_Tough.jpg

    Funny, he doesn’t look Tough.

    What can I say? Picking low hanging fruit is a Jewish thing.

  88. @Diversity Heretic
    It's staggering, for example, that all of the Supreme Court justices are either Harvard or Yale educated. (I believe Ginsburg also attended Columbia). But Grassley, from Iowa, just sits as chairman of that Senate Judicary Committee and never agitates for any law school origin diversity for Supreme Court candidates.

    Based on current and recent crop of Harvard/Yale Law grads, if that trend continues, i.e. SCOTUS made up of primarily Harvard/Yale grads, this country will be past the point of no return.

    • Replies: @Charon
    FWIW, if they've graduated from Stanford, Berkeley, Northwestern etc the results will be just about the same.
    , @Diversity Heretic
    My only quibble with your comment is to say that the USA is already past the point of no return.
  89. anon[185] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    Somewhat on topic:

    A band saw, a drill press and $2.3 million. College celebrates largest donation ever as ‘transformative’

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-10-14/cerritos-college-donation-woodworking

    https://www.whittierdailynews.com/2019/10/14/man-who-took-woodworking-classes-at-cerritos-college-leaves-scholarships-gift/

    https://www.loscerritosnews.net/2019/10/15/cerritos-college-alumnus-john-b-smith-leaves-2-3m-estate-gift-for-woodworking-scholarships/

    A modestly well-off guy towards the end of his life adds a bequest to the local community college to his will. But he carefully limits the money to the woodworking department. No gender studies professors can profit from it.

    Its a dependent grant, and it takes a while for his mother to die and the money to come to the college, but it ends up at $2.3 million plus some nice tools from the guy’s workshop.

    Meanwhile, the woodworking program seems to have become mostly female since the guy took classes himself.

    And the woodworking scholarship created from the guy's bequest is being tweaked to help increase diversity even more. After all, woodworking is oppressively male and hegemonically patriarchical, and that needs to change. What can’t the entire woodworking student body be female?

    Ignoring the wishes of donors is surprising common and has resulted in recent lawsuits. A clever legal trick is to get two colleges involved in such a way that each has a large financial incentive to monitor the activities of the other under the terms of the donation:

    When Colleges Defraud Donors

    https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2019/09/30/when-colleges-defraud-donors/


    The Mizzou misappropriation of funds allegation would never have arisen except for an extremely eccentric but highly perceptive precaution taken by Sherlock Hibbs –he appointed Hillsdale College as an overseer of the funds, giving them the power to assess, every four years, whether donor intent is being met –and, if it is not, to become the recipient of those funds. Hillsdale is known for its strong adherence to conservative or libertarian principles combined with a strong Christian tradition–it is opening a new spectacular $30 million chapel at a ceremony with Justice Clarence Thomas speaking in a few days. Hibbs felt that if there were hanky-panky in the use of funds at Mizzou, Hillsdale would protest. He was right.
     

    Woodworking is a great hobby, but awful career. Unless you can tap into a tiny boutique market. One of the reasons it is an interesting hobby is that wood isn’t dimensionally stable, and a lot of design and craftsmanship is making functionally stable things out of an unstable material. No one much wants to pay for these skills when there are work arounds. I’ll mention plywood and particleboard first as stable surrogates and then virtually any other material.

    There is money in kitchens. People need em, want em, and pay up for them. Woodworking could be a good background, but hardly necessary.

    I would consider an AA degree in woodworking a curse. HVAC not so much.

  90. @Joe Stalin
    "This is West Chicago."

    West Chicano.

    , that is its nickname!

  91. @Dr. X

    Men go into trades or smaller businesses because corporate and academia don’t want men, except at the top, and signal this every chance they get.
     
    Well, they DO want gay men and black men...

    They want workers who are sure to conform, and semi-likely to have some competency, which is a category including (for lack of a better word) “minorities.” They used to primarily want workers who knew what they were doing, and would rely on culture (in and out of the company) to handle what conformity now katyushas.

  92. @Triumph104
    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year. No college. He is a lineman with the electric company, owns a lawncare business with employees, and has three rental homes. He paid cash for two of the properties. He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent.

    https://youtu.be/6bi2XvD0eXw

    More power — err, or wealth — to him, but surely he is relying on every immigrant’s temp agency (that is, la familia) to staff all those positions?

  93. @bomag
    Looking back, did you even need to go to college?

    This is a very fun interesting question, and it would be interesting to get the answer for a lot of people.

    Was your college edumacation worth it, and if you didn’t graduate college, did it hurt you?

    I have a PhD in a hard science.

    During the dot-com boom, I taught myself programming. I was soon making double the amount of money programming with no degree compared to what I had been making as a professor with a PhD.

    On the other hand, most of my programming has been scientific programming, which requires a PhD.

    In retrospect, me getting a PhD may have been a waste of time, but I didn’t know the market would be flooded with Chinese graduates of American PhD programs. That was George H W Bush in action.

    I have one kid who works as an engineer. For him, college was absolutely necessary to get a job.

    OTOH I have neighbors who are go getters with similar skills but no education who learned a trade and started their own business. The nicest house on the street belongs to a plumber. The nicest cars belong to a guy with an HVAC business.

    My son isn’t really the go getter type to learn a trade and start a business. For him an engineering degree was the best way to go.

    My second kid is a senior in college, and a pre-med. College was necessary.

  94. @Bruno
    I thought the Nobel Prize in Economy (bank of Sweden) with a French woman Jewish married to a highest Indian Brahmin jati (one of 5 founding families in Bengal, Kulin Brahmin) would warrant a huge article ....

    As you allude, fake Nobel’s with no consistency in what kind of reality they even think we live in don’t count.

  95. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    Do these people really not realize that a persistent mismatch between actual talent and aptitude on the one hand and opportunities and education on the other will be the end of us?

    Do the Chinese do this? (I suspect that Han are favored, but not to the extent that others are excluded from earned opportunities in favor of Han).

    The whole world largely operated under this for thousands of years and the world didn’t end. Indeed most raw intellectual potential was utterly ‘wasted’ until very very recently. Meritocracy is oversold and has largely brought about the situation that the terms coiner predicted with the added bonus of overeducation causing longer generation time and lower total fertility among the more intelligent.

  96. @Anon
    Steve, you say, "This country needs to reform testing, to get it back to doing the job it did fairly well in the past.”

    Can you be more specific? For instance,

    -- Do you buy into the story about test prepping skewing things? Do you think they need to be making more prep-resistant tests? Would dynamic, computerized tests be less prep-resistant?

    My view is that “test prep” is the new “implicit bias,” African voodoo, in that you can offer free test prep, as they did in New York, and it won’t change anything, and then they will say that rich whites and poor Asians get the good stuff, the really exepensive "magic prep” that isn’t available to others. In addition, I think that having the initiative and boredom-tolerancne to go to test prep on a regular basis says something positive about you that universities should want to know, outsite of cost issues (but here we have unsubstantiated claims that black kids are working jobs or taking care of step-siblings or burdened by stress and thus cannot attend prep irrespective of the cost).

    -- Do you think the SAT should be more g-loaded and thus harder to prep for either via test prep or even just by taking a lot of classes and studying hard? (This might make boys score even higher.)

    -- The appendix of The Bell Curve convinced me that researchers have the cultural bias stuff under control, but do you think that the SAT may be culturally biased?

    -- The Americans with Disabilities Act has managed to infect the reliability of the test. What do you think should be done about the disabled and SAT testing? I think that if your disability interferes with test taking, it’s going to interfere with your academic and job performance. I’d like to see an honest reporting of test scores on an apples-to-apples basis, with perhaps a secondary score or some sort of handicap reported that can be used to adjust a handicapped person’s score by the university, without polluting the raw data of the scores.

    -- You’ve mentioned making the range of the test much wider so as to give granular results for test-takers two or three standard deviations beyond what they now measure.

    -- Should the test be free or subsidized?

    -- Should multiple tests be outlawed, or at least should it be impossible to hide multiple results from institutions?

    should testing…

    Much of test criticism is political; opponents won’t be happy with any disparate test scores.

  97. @res
    That is a big swing. The gap was almost the opposite in 2017:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/27/scores-new-sat-show-large-gaps-race-and-ethnicity

    American Indian/Alaska Native
    Total 963 Reading/Writing 486 Math 477

    Black
    Total 941 Reading/Writing 479 Math 462

    Any idea of the percentage taking the test for each group?

    It was a fairly smooth change since they were almost at parity in 2018:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/10/29/sat-scores-are-gaps-remain-significant-among-racial-and-ethnic-groups

    And take a look at the gap in 2006!
    https://www.jbhe.com/features/53_SAT.html

    https://www.jbhe.com/images/issue53/SAT3.gif

    Here is a longer series of data (going back to 1986-87):
    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_226.10.asp

    What is happening with the American Indians?

    It’s almost as if tribal ethnic groups without a history of civilization do worse in skills needed to create a civilization.

  98. @XYZ (no Mr.)
    From my experience many smart rural young men choose engineering in college, the ones who wash out, accounting or business. And an undergraduate degree in engineering from an ABET accredited state university will result in a pretty nice middle class life in low-cost flyover country. So I think some of the lack of rural white men at the prestige institutions is simply the fact they don't care about the Ivy League much. Of course Ivy League degrees will open many more doors, but you have to care about the doors in the first place.

    When and undergraduate degree in engineering from an ABET accredited state university does not support a pretty nice middle class life in low-cost flyerover country, you get more votes for Donald Trump.

  99. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jesse
    The sex gap in college attendance has to do with the selection process for lower skilled careers.

    Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc.

    You make good points, but at some point you're going to have to stop the carping on white boys. It's just as divisive as the current crop of feminists. At some point you'll have to persuade women.

    “Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc.”

    Lower skilled in what? Differently skilled yes. Take your average law graduate from Harvard and he wouldn’t have a clue on how to install a three phase electric motor nor the theory behind it as the electrician probably wouldn’t know how to argue the finer points of Roe vs Wade before a district court judge. Different skills but not better skills. The country could survive without lawyers but not without electricians, everything would come to a stop. Think about it.

    • Agree: Dtbb
    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    The country could survive without lawyers but not without electricians, everything would come to a stop.
     
    True.
  100. @AndrewR
    Heaven forbid a woman marry a "less educated" man

    Heaven forbid a woman marry a “less educated” man

    High IQ men (top 1%) are almost always good providers. High IQ men with education will probably be outstanding in their field and get the best paying jobs, while high IQ men without education can still be outstanding earners because they aren’t snobs about how to make money. On the other hand “Educated” men may not be good providers if they are educated to do things that don’t pay much, like journalism or social work.

    Women should decide accordingly in mate selection. Time to invent the MSAT: Mate Selection Aptitude Test. There could be MSATF and MSATM versions which specifically test what the sexes are known to be good at. That way there are no surprises when your kid ends up going to Arizona State and starring in a porn film.

    • Agree: Charon
    • LOL: HammerJack
    • Replies: @Whiskey
    Male provision is irrelevant. Women have their own resources. Even Suck and Gates had to scrap for wives who visibly hate touching them. High iq is repulsive to women, unless married to charisma and dominance. And risk taking.

    Women have their own resources. No need to compromise. A sexy low is thug beats a PhD every time.
  101. If your child is too smart, though, you don’t need to write the check. Hence, the need to admit parents who have low SATs but do well in minor sports.

  102. Off topic:

    Steve

    Go have a look at “We’re in a permanent coup” by Matt Taibi….

  103. @jim jones
    Plenty of people say that women only go to University to find a high quality husband

    go to University to find a high quality husband

    aka “the Mrs. degree”

  104. @bomag
    Looking back, did you even need to go to college?

    I conducted a major paper in High School on how to improve public schools. It proved a project that really opened my eyes to a very nefarious system. I did research on most of the major people (John Dewey) and strategies/theories on education. I was perplexed (then frustrated) that nothing seemed to improve (or even decrease) education ability. That for the last 50+ years all attempts to improve attainment could be condensed into a wet fart.

    That’s when I encountered the dreaded “Necronomicon” of education and social sciences as a whole; Charles Murray’s “The Bell Curve.” It’s hard to explain the high level of indoctrination 1990s-2000s kids received on “race doesn’t exist” and “grades are entirely dependent on hard work” messaging. I had never encountered such a piece of alien thought and counter explanation for low-ability students. Keep in mind I previously attributed it strictly to poverty (the old explanation) compared to the contemporary (white man is evil) meme we have today.

    This is around the same time I first encountered the perpetual glory which is Steve Sailer. This was one of the first articles I encountered during my genetics and IQ “binge.”

    https://vdare.com/articles/pisa-scores-show-demography-is-destiny-in-education-too-but-washington-doesn-t-want-you-to-know

    Keep in mind I knew well enough to never let my teachers and project supervisor know about my alternative research. For the main project I recommended that public schools should be nationalized and bring the subsequent standardization with it. (They liked that.) After that, I didn’t return to any HBD related websites until around Trump’s Presidential run. (Liberal tears are a addictive narcotic.)

    By High School I understood education was typically a waste of time. I went to a decent college just because I could easily afford it. Also, there is a very real social stigma for not going to college. (Especially amongst the upper classes.) With the genetics of IQ and a poor job market regardless of industry (remember 2008?), college mainly just serves as a means to allow Boomer parents bragging rights. I’m serious, there is no economic justification to pay that kind of money. The cost benefit analysis is atrocious. If the social stigma wasn’t there, it’ll better just to pocket the money and invest in tangible assets.

    • Replies: @anon
    I conducted a major paper in High School on how to improve public schools.

    Pity you didn't run across John Taylor Gatto, you would have been spared a lot of work.
    , @bomag
    Thanks.
  105. @Anon
    You may be right on the facts, but I don’t think that 17-year-olds are thinking like that. How would they know anything about girl attributes by university? And how many college kids thinking of HVAC are going to college? How many college kids capable of being accepted by an Ivy are thinking of HVAC? It might be the smart thing to do, but it’s not in the minds of 17-year-old smart boys.

    I applied to a range of colleges, many years ago, but I didn’t think I’d get into the Ivy or Stanford, and I did it as kind of a flier, since I didn’t think we could afford it. As it so happened, my parents got divorced just in time for me to be part of my mother’s zero income household, and UCLA offered me an all-expenses-paid Regents Scholarship (plus priority class assignment before the hoi polloi, free parking, guaranteed dorm assignment, faculty advisor, etc.). It never occurred to me that I might have had that kind of an offer from an Ivy. And as I mentioned above, I am not sure that such support is to be had by poor white kids even today. Does Harvard pay full freight for poor white boys today? I think not, but if they do the knowledge of that is not part of the zeitgeist, which would account for a lower percentage of applications from poor flyover white boys.

    Many of the elite colleges will give a full ride (tuition, room and board) to anyone from a family under a certain income level, usually around $55k or $60 k.

    After that, the college will give a graduated scholarship. For example, Chicago has free tuition but full price room and board at about $120k. Some other elite schools will have free tuition and partial room and board costs at that level.

    One of my kids goes to a fairly prestigious college, but not at the Ivy or equivalent. The list price is over $70k, but with financial aid it is cheaper than in state tuition at U of Wisconsin. Had my kid been at an Ivy, it would have been free tuition and only pay for room and board.

    One of my kids got a full academic scholarship somewhere, pays tuition and fees, and is also a resident assistant so the dorm is free as well. Also gets a few hundred a month in food costs.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Generally if an Ivy lets you in, they will make sure you can swing the $. Worked for me.
  106. @Realist
    I agree with your comments, but the main advantage of graduation from Ivy league schools is the good ol' boys club. Those in power give a big hand up to their fellow alumni.

    Especially 50 and 100 years ago, and of course forever in Hollywood movies.

    • Replies: @Realist
    It's still happening.
  107. @Walsh2
    Based on current and recent crop of Harvard/Yale Law grads, if that trend continues, i.e. SCOTUS made up of primarily Harvard/Yale grads, this country will be past the point of no return.

    FWIW, if they’ve graduated from Stanford, Berkeley, Northwestern etc the results will be just about the same.

    • Replies: @Walsh2
    Agreed. Your comment actually piqued my interest in regards to which law schools justices attended throughout the history of the SCOTUS - the Harvard/Yale pipeline appears to be a recent trend. At least a sizable number of Harvard/Yale grads on the court have been appointed in the last half-century.

    Take a look at this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_schools_attended_by_United_States_Supreme_Court_Justices
  108. @jim jones
    Plenty of people say that women only go to University to find a high quality husband

    Plenty of people are wrong, probably mentally stuck in the 1980’s.

    The average age of an American woman at first marriage is 27.

  109. @Kronos
    I conducted a major paper in High School on how to improve public schools. It proved a project that really opened my eyes to a very nefarious system. I did research on most of the major people (John Dewey) and strategies/theories on education. I was perplexed (then frustrated) that nothing seemed to improve (or even decrease) education ability. That for the last 50+ years all attempts to improve attainment could be condensed into a wet fart.

    That’s when I encountered the dreaded “Necronomicon” of education and social sciences as a whole; Charles Murray’s “The Bell Curve.” It’s hard to explain the high level of indoctrination 1990s-2000s kids received on “race doesn’t exist” and “grades are entirely dependent on hard work” messaging. I had never encountered such a piece of alien thought and counter explanation for low-ability students. Keep in mind I previously attributed it strictly to poverty (the old explanation) compared to the contemporary (white man is evil) meme we have today.

    This is around the same time I first encountered the perpetual glory which is Steve Sailer. This was one of the first articles I encountered during my genetics and IQ “binge.”


    https://vdare.com/articles/pisa-scores-show-demography-is-destiny-in-education-too-but-washington-doesn-t-want-you-to-know

    Keep in mind I knew well enough to never let my teachers and project supervisor know about my alternative research. For the main project I recommended that public schools should be nationalized and bring the subsequent standardization with it. (They liked that.) After that, I didn’t return to any HBD related websites until around Trump’s Presidential run. (Liberal tears are a addictive narcotic.)

    By High School I understood education was typically a waste of time. I went to a decent college just because I could easily afford it. Also, there is a very real social stigma for not going to college. (Especially amongst the upper classes.) With the genetics of IQ and a poor job market regardless of industry (remember 2008?), college mainly just serves as a means to allow Boomer parents bragging rights. I’m serious, there is no economic justification to pay that kind of money. The cost benefit analysis is atrocious. If the social stigma wasn’t there, it’ll better just to pocket the money and invest in tangible assets.

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/i9PNn50iy4Q/hqdefault.jpg

    I conducted a major paper in High School on how to improve public schools.

    Pity you didn’t run across John Taylor Gatto, you would have been spared a lot of work.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    I did, his “Underground History of American Education” was a pretty good work. (Though he tried somewhat unsuccessfully to utilize literary techniques from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag Archipelago.”

    Also, he tried to use a black kid’s (correct) observation that the school principle was a coward. It’s his example for disproving the Bell Curve. The kid recognized that nothing would come of getting in trouble and being sent to the principle’s office. (He does a better job at describing the incident than myself, but it certainly doesn’t disprove anything.) That maybe a majority black school principle can only discipline so many black kids until a hotshot lawyer comes by with a disparate impact lawsuit. The kids indirectly learn about this but are very sketchy on the details. They just learn there are only certain times and places to mess with the principle.

  110. @Jesse
    The sex gap in college attendance has to do with the selection process for lower skilled careers.

    Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc.

    You make good points, but at some point you're going to have to stop the carping on white boys. It's just as divisive as the current crop of feminists. At some point you'll have to persuade women.

    I run a construction company and my wife is an elementary school teacher so I have experience dealing with both construction trades people and elementary school teachers. I would rate the teachers as higher skilled.

    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels. Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    About the only place females don’t outperform males seems to be at the very highest level of intelligence. Nobel prize level scientists/mathematicians, etc. But don’t notice that. Harvard President Summers got in trouble for noticing that.

    • Replies: @anon
    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels.

    Given that K - 12 school is designed for girls and has been for 20+ years, that is not a surprise.

    Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    Because anything less is proof of a pattern of discrimination. Don't confuse a mandate with talent.
    , @Art Deco
    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels. Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    The ratio of men to women in the working population is about 1.12. As we speak, the ratio of men to women among those awarded baccalaureate degrees is about 0.75. However, that does not hold for all categories. About 56% of all men receiving degrees do so in fields where the ratio of men to women exceeds 1.12. These are as follows (with the ratio of men to women appended).

    Mechanic and repair technologies/technicians: 17.93
    Transportation and materials moving: 7.20
    Engineering technologies and engineering-related: 6.74
    Construction trades: 6.65
    Military technologies and applied sciences: 5.89
    Computer and information sciences: 4.23
    Engineering: 3.64
    Theology and religious vocations: 2.30
    Communications technologies: 1.65
    Philosophy and religious studies: 1.62
    Physical sciences and science technologies: 1.51
    History: 1.46
    Mathematics and statistics: 1.39
    Precision production: 1.28
    Architecture and related services: 1.14
    Homeland security, law enforcement, and firefighting: 1.12
    Business: 1.12

    The following categories account for 56% of the baccalaureate degrees awarded to women. The ratio of men to women is noted:

    Library science: 0.11
    Family and consumer sciences/human sciences: 0.13
    Health professions and related programs: 0.18
    Public administration and social services: 0.21
    Education: 0.23
    Psychology: 0.27
    Area, ethnic, cultural, gender, and group studies: 0.37
    English language and literature/letters: 0.42
    Foreign languages, literatures, and linguistics: 0.46
    Legal professions and studies: 0.46
    Multi/interdisciplinary studies: 0.51
    Communication, journalism, and related programs: 0.52
    Liberal arts and sciences, general studies, and: 0.57
    Visual and performing arts: 0.63


    NB: "Family and Consumer Sciences" refers to a jumble of things. The most common discrete major is human development, which accounts for about 1/3. In 'health professions', the most common degree is registered nursing, accounting for 57% of the whole. About 60% of those in the 'public administration' category received social work degrees.

    , @Art Deco
    Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    The median age of working adults in this country is 42 years. (I would wager that among fancy professions, it might be approx 45). NB. about 47% of the working population is female. In 1995, about 46% was female. For most working people, the composition of the working population has been much the same in this respect throughout their working life. As we speak, the share of women among those employed in the following categories is as follows:

    Management: 40%
    Computer and mathematical occupations: 26%
    Architecture and engineering occupations: 16%
    Life, physical, and social scientists other than psychologists: 42%
    Lawyers: 37%
    Physicians and surgeons: 40%

    Psychologists: 76%

    NB, women have accounted for a majority of every entering class in higher education since 1979. People born after 1960 account for about 83% of the working population.

    , @The Wild Geese Howard

    I run a construction company and my wife is an elementary school teacher so I have experience dealing with both construction trades people and elementary school teachers. I would rate the teachers as higher skilled.
     
    Don't sell yourself short! I would only say the teachers are more, "booksmart," than folks in the trades.

    I find that tradespeople are generally far, far more, "world/street smart," than those of us in the professional ranks.

    Heck, I have two engineering degrees and I just got out of a one-on-one with my type-A Millennial hipster (apparently they exist, who knew) boss that involved him lecturing me how I need to be a micromanager just like him.

    I definitely spent a portion of that meeting wishing that I'd had the guts to start and run my own business.
  111. @Charon
    Especially 50 and 100 years ago, and of course forever in Hollywood movies.

    It’s still happening.

  112. @Jesse
    The sex gap in college attendance has to do with the selection process for lower skilled careers.

    Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc.

    You make good points, but at some point you're going to have to stop the carping on white boys. It's just as divisive as the current crop of feminists. At some point you'll have to persuade women.

    College debt is the hot topic. But one of the constant fallacies in nearly everyone’s analysis of the value of college is to simply ignore the opportunity cost of spending 4-5 years on campus.

    So that’s actually the missing — and most interesting — part of the college gender gap question: What exactly are all those 18 year-old males doing with their time instead of college? Are they getting started on careers? Or just playing video games and smoking pot?

    Also, while it would be extremely un-PC to notice, the economic ROI of female higher education is clearly lower than for males. As just one example, a high percentage of female law school grads never practice. Of those who do, the majority marry another well-compensated lawyers and proceed to drop out of working, or at least working in the fast-track.

    Of course, if anyone did run the ROI numbers it would produce yet another “Gap” that would need to be closed.

    • Replies: @anon
    Also, while it would be extremely un-PC to notice, the economic ROI of female higher education is clearly lower than for males. As just one example, a high percentage of female law school grads never practice

    Women doctors tend to gravitate towards family medicine and pediatrics, leaving a smaller pool of doctors for other specialities draw from. I don't know what the average age of a cardiac surgeon is, but I bet it's "over 50". Then once in practice, women doctors tend to work fewer hours than men, are more prone to go to half time, more prone to leave the practice. This should not surprise anyone except for the most rabid blank-slate true believers.

    Every woman sitting in a med school chair is taking a place that might be used by a man who would work longer hours, more years, in something other than family / pediatrics. That's opportunity cost.
  113. @Charon
    FWIW, if they've graduated from Stanford, Berkeley, Northwestern etc the results will be just about the same.

    Agreed. Your comment actually piqued my interest in regards to which law schools justices attended throughout the history of the SCOTUS – the Harvard/Yale pipeline appears to be a recent trend. At least a sizable number of Harvard/Yale grads on the court have been appointed in the last half-century.

    Take a look at this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_schools_attended_by_United_States_Supreme_Court_Justices

  114. anon[210] • Disclaimer says:
    @RAZ
    I run a construction company and my wife is an elementary school teacher so I have experience dealing with both construction trades people and elementary school teachers. I would rate the teachers as higher skilled.

    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels. Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    About the only place females don't outperform males seems to be at the very highest level of intelligence. Nobel prize level scientists/mathematicians, etc. But don't notice that. Harvard President Summers got in trouble for noticing that.

    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels.

    Given that K – 12 school is designed for girls and has been for 20+ years, that is not a surprise.

    Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    Because anything less is proof of a pattern of discrimination. Don’t confuse a mandate with talent.

    • Replies: @RAZ
    Can discuss what the attempts to be inclusive in other areas has meant for College and Law/Med School admissions. But think the girls are there on merit.
  115. @anon
    I conducted a major paper in High School on how to improve public schools.

    Pity you didn't run across John Taylor Gatto, you would have been spared a lot of work.

    I did, his “Underground History of American Education” was a pretty good work. (Though he tried somewhat unsuccessfully to utilize literary techniques from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag Archipelago.”

    Also, he tried to use a black kid’s (correct) observation that the school principle was a coward. It’s his example for disproving the Bell Curve. The kid recognized that nothing would come of getting in trouble and being sent to the principle’s office. (He does a better job at describing the incident than myself, but it certainly doesn’t disprove anything.) That maybe a majority black school principle can only discipline so many black kids until a hotshot lawyer comes by with a disparate impact lawsuit. The kids indirectly learn about this but are very sketchy on the details. They just learn there are only certain times and places to mess with the principle.

    • Replies: @anon
    I did, his “Underground History of American Education” was a pretty good work.

    Was that while you were involved in the study, or afterwards?
  116. anon[210] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hypnotoad666
    College debt is the hot topic. But one of the constant fallacies in nearly everyone's analysis of the value of college is to simply ignore the opportunity cost of spending 4-5 years on campus.

    So that's actually the missing -- and most interesting -- part of the college gender gap question: What exactly are all those 18 year-old males doing with their time instead of college? Are they getting started on careers? Or just playing video games and smoking pot?

    Also, while it would be extremely un-PC to notice, the economic ROI of female higher education is clearly lower than for males. As just one example, a high percentage of female law school grads never practice. Of those who do, the majority marry another well-compensated lawyers and proceed to drop out of working, or at least working in the fast-track.

    Of course, if anyone did run the ROI numbers it would produce yet another "Gap" that would need to be closed.

    Also, while it would be extremely un-PC to notice, the economic ROI of female higher education is clearly lower than for males. As just one example, a high percentage of female law school grads never practice

    Women doctors tend to gravitate towards family medicine and pediatrics, leaving a smaller pool of doctors for other specialities draw from. I don’t know what the average age of a cardiac surgeon is, but I bet it’s “over 50”. Then once in practice, women doctors tend to work fewer hours than men, are more prone to go to half time, more prone to leave the practice. This should not surprise anyone except for the most rabid blank-slate true believers.

    Every woman sitting in a med school chair is taking a place that might be used by a man who would work longer hours, more years, in something other than family / pediatrics. That’s opportunity cost.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Every woman sitting in a med school chair

    I think you need to recall what is meant by the word 'every'.
    , @Rosie

    Every woman sitting in a med school chair is taking a place that might be used by a man who would work longer hours, more years, in something other than family / pediatrics. That’s opportunity cost.
     
    Here it is again.

    If women are ambitious careerists, that would be wrong. That we are not is also wrong and warrants limiting our options in life. Unz might as well be Forbes magazine with the constant obsession with the bottom line. GDP uber alles.
  117. OFF TOPIC

    Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio Push Endless Overseas War and Mass Immigration.

    Tweet from 2015:

  118. @bomag

    ...we don’t need more smart, Christian white boys there
     
    I'd suggest the plan is for smart, Christian boys to wrest control of the place away from GloboHomo™.

    But in the grand battle with GloboHomo™, maybe prudence dictates that we marginalize the place and let it become a ghetto.

    It’d be interesting if some university would ever realize it can have its pick of smart white boys, the sort of people who, you know, built civilization. Money ball, you fools.

  119. @RAZ
    I run a construction company and my wife is an elementary school teacher so I have experience dealing with both construction trades people and elementary school teachers. I would rate the teachers as higher skilled.

    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels. Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    About the only place females don't outperform males seems to be at the very highest level of intelligence. Nobel prize level scientists/mathematicians, etc. But don't notice that. Harvard President Summers got in trouble for noticing that.

    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels. Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    The ratio of men to women in the working population is about 1.12. As we speak, the ratio of men to women among those awarded baccalaureate degrees is about 0.75. However, that does not hold for all categories. About 56% of all men receiving degrees do so in fields where the ratio of men to women exceeds 1.12. These are as follows (with the ratio of men to women appended).

    Mechanic and repair technologies/technicians: 17.93
    Transportation and materials moving: 7.20
    Engineering technologies and engineering-related: 6.74
    Construction trades: 6.65
    Military technologies and applied sciences: 5.89
    Computer and information sciences: 4.23
    Engineering: 3.64
    Theology and religious vocations: 2.30
    Communications technologies: 1.65
    Philosophy and religious studies: 1.62
    Physical sciences and science technologies: 1.51
    History: 1.46
    Mathematics and statistics: 1.39
    Precision production: 1.28
    Architecture and related services: 1.14
    Homeland security, law enforcement, and firefighting: 1.12
    Business: 1.12

    The following categories account for 56% of the baccalaureate degrees awarded to women. The ratio of men to women is noted:

    Library science: 0.11
    Family and consumer sciences/human sciences: 0.13
    Health professions and related programs: 0.18
    Public administration and social services: 0.21
    Education: 0.23
    Psychology: 0.27
    Area, ethnic, cultural, gender, and group studies: 0.37
    English language and literature/letters: 0.42
    Foreign languages, literatures, and linguistics: 0.46
    Legal professions and studies: 0.46
    Multi/interdisciplinary studies: 0.51
    Communication, journalism, and related programs: 0.52
    Liberal arts and sciences, general studies, and: 0.57
    Visual and performing arts: 0.63

    NB: “Family and Consumer Sciences” refers to a jumble of things. The most common discrete major is human development, which accounts for about 1/3. In ‘health professions’, the most common degree is registered nursing, accounting for 57% of the whole. About 60% of those in the ‘public administration’ category received social work degrees.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    I knew a woman who got her PhD in "Leadership." She didn't even mind me mocking the word, so I guess, although she was working with all scales removed from her eyes, she was just going with the flow.
  120. @CAL2
    I've never understood using GPA or class ranking from HS as any sort of measure. If you go to a small private school and are fourth in your class our of 35 (outside the top 10%), how are you worse than someone who is 36th out of 400 at an inner city school?

    Back in the 80's, I went to a HS out in the country. You know, one of those supposedly inferior schools with barely a budget. We had a kid transfer in from one of the state's big cities. He was talking up how he got all A's at his previous school. After the first grading period he was barely passing.

    We had a kid transfer in from one of the state’s big cities. He was talking up how he got all A’s at his previous school. After the first grading period he was barely passing.

    Some years ago I read an interesting article about how school differed between Ivy Leaguers and the working classes. You know, one side gets extensions and easy A:s, the other gets tough assignments, tough grading and washing out if you fail. It might have been in Higher Education. Too bad I’ve lost the link.

  121. @anon
    Also, while it would be extremely un-PC to notice, the economic ROI of female higher education is clearly lower than for males. As just one example, a high percentage of female law school grads never practice

    Women doctors tend to gravitate towards family medicine and pediatrics, leaving a smaller pool of doctors for other specialities draw from. I don't know what the average age of a cardiac surgeon is, but I bet it's "over 50". Then once in practice, women doctors tend to work fewer hours than men, are more prone to go to half time, more prone to leave the practice. This should not surprise anyone except for the most rabid blank-slate true believers.

    Every woman sitting in a med school chair is taking a place that might be used by a man who would work longer hours, more years, in something other than family / pediatrics. That's opportunity cost.

    Every woman sitting in a med school chair

    I think you need to recall what is meant by the word ‘every’.

    • Replies: @anon
    I think you need to recall what is meant by the word ‘every’.

    I think you have not been around any medical students in the current year, or do not have a firm understanding of "mean" and "variance" with respect to g...or both.

  122. @Kronos
    I did, his “Underground History of American Education” was a pretty good work. (Though he tried somewhat unsuccessfully to utilize literary techniques from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag Archipelago.”

    Also, he tried to use a black kid’s (correct) observation that the school principle was a coward. It’s his example for disproving the Bell Curve. The kid recognized that nothing would come of getting in trouble and being sent to the principle’s office. (He does a better job at describing the incident than myself, but it certainly doesn’t disprove anything.) That maybe a majority black school principle can only discipline so many black kids until a hotshot lawyer comes by with a disparate impact lawsuit. The kids indirectly learn about this but are very sketchy on the details. They just learn there are only certain times and places to mess with the principle.

    I did, his “Underground History of American Education” was a pretty good work.

    Was that while you were involved in the study, or afterwards?

    • Replies: @Kronos
    This was during the project. The project was ongoing for a couple months. I was also pretty passionate about it. I figured if mathematics was the “Queen of the Sciences”, education had to be the indisputable King. That to boost education achievement in the hard sciences, education was the key toward that path.

    This was when I believed (rather assumed) education was value added, not just a sorting signal. Over the years I’ve kept my ear to the ground for other HBD-friendly books examining education. True, nothing has really changed since “The Bell Curve” but it’s still somewhat interesting. Education Realist did a very good/engaging review on this book a while back.


    https://www.amazon.com/Case-against-Education-System-Waste/dp/0691174652
  123. @Art Deco
    Every woman sitting in a med school chair

    I think you need to recall what is meant by the word 'every'.

    I think you need to recall what is meant by the word ‘every’.

    I think you have not been around any medical students in the current year, or do not have a firm understanding of “mean” and “variance” with respect to g…or both.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    or do not have a firm understanding of “mean” and “variance” with respect to g…or both.

    An understanding of that was certainly not incorporated into what you said.
  124. @Redneck farmer
    Thanks for the info! I may need to pick up your book suggestion.

    Your welcome, Sailer did a superb article on it a few years back. It’s the reason I purchased in the first place.

    https://www.takimag.com/article/getting_schooled_steve_sailer/

    Another good one in the same vain is “Bad Students, Not Bad Schools” by Robert Weissberg.

    Weissberg provides a better framework on how to encourage 100+ IQ students to reach their potential. That contemporary education not only inhibits itself with low-ability students but the cognitive heavy hitters don’t have any reason to play ball. They’re often de-facto stand-in teacher aids and help other students for free.

    Keep in mind if your in the education profession you might want to pace yourself. Otherwise it might lead to a blue liquor bath of depression.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Another good one in the same vain is “Bad Students, Not Bad Schools” by Robert Weissberg.
     
    I'll extend you the courtesy of blaming your teachers for that one.
  125. @RAZ
    I run a construction company and my wife is an elementary school teacher so I have experience dealing with both construction trades people and elementary school teachers. I would rate the teachers as higher skilled.

    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels. Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    About the only place females don't outperform males seems to be at the very highest level of intelligence. Nobel prize level scientists/mathematicians, etc. But don't notice that. Harvard President Summers got in trouble for noticing that.

    Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    The median age of working adults in this country is 42 years. (I would wager that among fancy professions, it might be approx 45). NB. about 47% of the working population is female. In 1995, about 46% was female. For most working people, the composition of the working population has been much the same in this respect throughout their working life. As we speak, the share of women among those employed in the following categories is as follows:

    Management: 40%
    Computer and mathematical occupations: 26%
    Architecture and engineering occupations: 16%
    Life, physical, and social scientists other than psychologists: 42%
    Lawyers: 37%
    Physicians and surgeons: 40%

    Psychologists: 76%

    NB, women have accounted for a majority of every entering class in higher education since 1979. People born after 1960 account for about 83% of the working population.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    About 41% of the medical degrees and 44% of the law degrees awarded in 1997 were awarded to women.
  126. @JMcG
    I know a woman like that. Math major in college, watched her two daughters borrow 100k each to attend a 2nd tier university and smiled as each girl bought a new car upon landing her first job. Incomprehensible.

    I’m assuming the cars were leased or payed with installments?

  127. If we start with the premise that most of the brilliant practitioners of STEM, the ones who move things forward, are male, then what are all these women doing?

    It turns out that every field needs a lot of people who just carry water: they go to meetings, they go over standards, they liaise with customers and other disciplines, etc. It turns out that these people need to be good communicators, and women are good at that. So, it might make sense to just pass a lot of girls along, first in grade school, then in college, you go gurrllz, and even thought they don’t know sh*t about engineering, you can still find them something to do. The real engineering work is done in crappy cube farms or warehouse labs full of worried-looking guys who work 80 hours per week.

    I have the feeling that big American companies are like Potemkin villages full of women who are putatively engineers, materials scientists, and so forth, but they just look like engineers. They do the same thing they’ve been doing all along; they look attentive, they always come to work, and they wait for the system to carry them along just like it did all through school.

  128. Anonymous[142] • Disclaimer says:

    No matter how one slices and dices it, the fact is elite colleges will only take a handful.

    Holistic or not, a college that admits only 2000 freshmen will only take that amount.

    So, how about do away with the entire meaning of elite colleges. Make harvard like all the rest. No special or higher standards for admissions….

    except in fields that really matter like science, medicine, technology, math.

  129. @The Wild Geese Howard
    Irrelevant.

    Any halfway attractive, sociable young woman is already playing life on easy mode.

    There are so many attention-starved men out there that these young ladies can go far with a wink, a smile, and a low cut blouse.

    I wouldn’t be so sure. Many men and women have been priced out of the sexual marketplace. I believe Roosh V stated awhile back that the top 20% of good looking people are now having 80% of the fun. Women don’t need a breadwinner so much because of the State (Welfare,etc.) Men don’t need women so much because of pornography (it’s cheaper and safer.) Also, 1/3rd of Millennials are living at home while the majority of the other 2/3rds wish they were. Being a live-at-home college graduate or residing in a poor studio apartment doesn’t impress either sex. The bad economy has placed significant strain on the standard SMP graph. Men take more time to make money while women get increasingly older.

    https://i1.wp.com/therationalmale.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/smv_curve1.jpg?zoom=2&resize=490%2C240&ssl=1

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Also, you might get a kick out of this.

    https://theaspergian.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/88183678_hetero_couples_624.png.jpg

    It’s all bars and online dating now.
  130. @Kronos
    I wouldn’t be so sure. Many men and women have been priced out of the sexual marketplace. I believe Roosh V stated awhile back that the top 20% of good looking people are now having 80% of the fun. Women don’t need a breadwinner so much because of the State (Welfare,etc.) Men don’t need women so much because of pornography (it’s cheaper and safer.) Also, 1/3rd of Millennials are living at home while the majority of the other 2/3rds wish they were. Being a live-at-home college graduate or residing in a poor studio apartment doesn’t impress either sex. The bad economy has placed significant strain on the standard SMP graph. Men take more time to make money while women get increasingly older.

    https://i1.wp.com/therationalmale.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/smv_curve1.jpg?zoom=2&resize=490%2C240&ssl=1

    Also, you might get a kick out of this.

    It’s all bars and online dating now.

    • Replies: @Whiskey
    This is key insight. Women now value sexiness and charisma instead of personality, social network, possibility of future wealth, etc. Women are the decision makers and it's clear sex is the only criteria.

    Let's hope sex bots come about and introduce some real competition among women forcing them to compete down the ladder from the top 5% men.

    Women have one advantage their ... Having a man's kid. If course that relation would be contractual and transaction all but you can't unscramble eggs.
  131. @Joe Stalin
    "One would be not to elect Ivy Leaguers or T14 law graduates to political office. "

    Seems to me that the Ivy Leaguers are the ones always telling us the Second Amendment doesn't mean crap in their judicial decisions, so why don't we stop nominating them so as to get people who don't think like your prototypical Coastal Communists?

    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists, ALL of whom went an Ivy League law school: Harvard (Roberts, Scalia) or Yale (Thomas, Alito). (Kennedy went to both Harvard and Stanford).

    Since conservatives can’t honestly win elections anymore, practically everything that the conservative movement has achieved in recent years has been achieved by 5 lawyers who went to Ivy League schools.

    • Replies: @Joe Schmoe
    "In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists,"

    baloney

    "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    In the language usage of the day, militia simply means armed citizens.

    well regulated means competent in the use of the weapons. Back then there were no magazine style firearms. There were flintlocks that had to have powder and shot loaded, no bullet cartridges, no point and shoot guns.

    The text clearly states that a free country requires people to have weapons and be competent in their use. This was ratified by every state. It was demanded by every state. You cannot live without weapons on a frontier with dangerous wild animals, no secure source of food, and no police protection. Therefore the people must be allowed to have guns in order to be secure in their persons.

    , @Joe Stalin
    "invented"..."hard right judicial activists"...LOL;talk about damning with faint praise!

    The five judges merely recognized what historians like Joyce Lee Malcom, Clayton Cramer, et al. have uncovered in the past few decades vis-a-vis "Right to Keep and Bear Arms." And that was just for handguns.

    Where are the pro-gun decisions in favor of assault rifles? Will we see full-auto gun manufacture for the civilian market and knock out the Hughes Amendment preventing FA construction?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxHIM9tyyrc
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial
     
    No. But it is nice to hear from the fevered imagination of a half-wit. Your 2nd Amendment's dismissal may be due to your ignorance, or perhaps your mendacity, but the likeliest explanation is your stupidity.

    If you want to be a subject, emigrate to Europe. We are American Citizens, you are a damned parasite at best, and a toxic cancer otherwise.
    , @Art Deco
    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists, A

    In reality, the text is right there in the 2d amendment. It takes some...inventiveness to understand the phrase 'the right of the people' to not refer to a personal right in this text when it does in legal texts generally.

    The people who 'can't win elections anymore' control most state legislative houses and the upper chamber of Congress, not to mention the presidency.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists...
     
    In reality, the right of [a Negro] to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists...

    Fixed Well-regulated it for you.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Molon Labe.
  132. @anon
    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels.

    Given that K - 12 school is designed for girls and has been for 20+ years, that is not a surprise.

    Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    Because anything less is proof of a pattern of discrimination. Don't confuse a mandate with talent.

    Can discuss what the attempts to be inclusive in other areas has meant for College and Law/Med School admissions. But think the girls are there on merit.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    But think the girls are there on merit.
     
    They absolutely are there on merit. If they weren't, you would see them disproportionately flunking the bar exam, which they do not.
  133. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1182928941637668864

    The woman in the cartoon has a man jaw.

  134. @Art Deco
    Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    The median age of working adults in this country is 42 years. (I would wager that among fancy professions, it might be approx 45). NB. about 47% of the working population is female. In 1995, about 46% was female. For most working people, the composition of the working population has been much the same in this respect throughout their working life. As we speak, the share of women among those employed in the following categories is as follows:

    Management: 40%
    Computer and mathematical occupations: 26%
    Architecture and engineering occupations: 16%
    Life, physical, and social scientists other than psychologists: 42%
    Lawyers: 37%
    Physicians and surgeons: 40%

    Psychologists: 76%

    NB, women have accounted for a majority of every entering class in higher education since 1979. People born after 1960 account for about 83% of the working population.

    About 41% of the medical degrees and 44% of the law degrees awarded in 1997 were awarded to women.

  135. @SunBakedSuburb
    I dropped out of a non-prestigious Cal State University after my freshman year to join the U.S. Coast Guard. It was a good decision.

    I dropped out of a non-prestigious Cal State University after my freshman year to join the U.S. Coast Guard. It was a good decision.

    A good decision, indeed. Retirement at 45 with full pension, followed by a second career restoring classic muscle cars or making wine. What’s not to like?

  136. @jim jones
    Plenty of people say that women only go to University to find a high quality husband

    Our vet was happy one herd check. His wife had hoped their youngest daughter “finds a man”.
    “I was like,’ Yes, thank God she said it, cause if I said it, I’d be a f*****, sexist, as*****!’”

  137. @Anon
    I think one of the reasons that high IQ rural white males may not apply to the Ivy League is that they are not aware of the significant financial aid available. They think going there would be financially impossible, or burden the family and himself with debt.

    Honestly, is it even true that a high IQ rural white male going to Harvard can get significant financial aid? Doesn’t it tend to go to students in some “underrepresented” class? If so, not applying is a rational decision.

    A rural white male will not make the university more diverse, and will not trigger any significant donor activity (his parents are poor and he is a crapshoot and any income is far in the future).

    I finally decided to start shooting straight with some of my students about college. My key one: “Why validate an institution that devalues your beliefs and background? Directuional U is fine and is at worst just a couple of cooky departments?”

  138. @black sea
    Yes, those jobs pay very well, though they are few and far between.

    An even better option would be to become a harbor pilot. Average income: $400,000 per year. And a change of scenery.

    True, and harbor pilots work a lot less, but they are scarcer and I believe those are essentially hereditary positions. ( also in the event the draft is activated, harbor pilot is one of the professions specifically named in the militia code as being exempt, and therefore you can’t get inducted into military service. )
    Custodian in some institutions is another blue-collar job that is great. Years ago the WSJ ran a story about the custodian at Carnegie Hall who made $400k a year. It’s a concert hall, not an opera house so there isn’t even any scenery to build and move like a carpenter or stagehand would. This guy’s job was literally to set out the folding chairs and podiums before each concert, wait around until the concert is over, then put them away again. Who knows what the pay is now.
    Whenever the Opera would ask me for donations, my generosity would be tempered by the fact that the union stage hands were probably making more than I did.

  139. @RAZ
    I run a construction company and my wife is an elementary school teacher so I have experience dealing with both construction trades people and elementary school teachers. I would rate the teachers as higher skilled.

    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels. Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    About the only place females don't outperform males seems to be at the very highest level of intelligence. Nobel prize level scientists/mathematicians, etc. But don't notice that. Harvard President Summers got in trouble for noticing that.

    I run a construction company and my wife is an elementary school teacher so I have experience dealing with both construction trades people and elementary school teachers. I would rate the teachers as higher skilled.

    Don’t sell yourself short! I would only say the teachers are more, “booksmart,” than folks in the trades.

    I find that tradespeople are generally far, far more, “world/street smart,” than those of us in the professional ranks.

    Heck, I have two engineering degrees and I just got out of a one-on-one with my type-A Millennial hipster (apparently they exist, who knew) boss that involved him lecturing me how I need to be a micromanager just like him.

    I definitely spent a portion of that meeting wishing that I’d had the guts to start and run my own business.

  140. Anonymous[409] • Disclaimer says:
    @George
    Good for Mr Sanchez but his salary is mostly due to productivity so the Sanchez lineman solution is probably not available for the masses. University is about occupying the army of the unemployed until they near 30 and likely won't be a social problem that challenges the state. The trades that women are most represented in, nursing, teaching, and maybe law require university 4yr degrees, so it makes sense for them to go to University.

    It is also possible that to become a lineman requires family connections to enter into the profession.

    Usually to become a lineman you find a job as a helper with a utility in the region that is hiring. They always are because it’s physical outdoor work and you have to be legal, speak and write standard English, and pass drug test. If you prove to be a good worker, show up on time, etc and can pass the test you will become an apprentice and in a few years a journeyman. Maybe it’s nepotistic in a few areas but generally not.

    You also need to have a Class A CDL and have basic electrical skills and theory. So a certain number of people decide high voltage, weather extremes and heights are not worth it and go into lesser paying but easier, safer work.

  141. @anon
    I think you need to recall what is meant by the word ‘every’.

    I think you have not been around any medical students in the current year, or do not have a firm understanding of "mean" and "variance" with respect to g...or both.

    or do not have a firm understanding of “mean” and “variance” with respect to g…or both.

    An understanding of that was certainly not incorporated into what you said.

  142. Hey so off topic: Is there a way I can donate to Steve King without doxing myself? Like maybe through a PAC or something? Is there even a pro-Steve King pac?

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    Make a cash donation by mail in the name of an enemy?
  143. @anon
    I did, his “Underground History of American Education” was a pretty good work.

    Was that while you were involved in the study, or afterwards?

    This was during the project. The project was ongoing for a couple months. I was also pretty passionate about it. I figured if mathematics was the “Queen of the Sciences”, education had to be the indisputable King. That to boost education achievement in the hard sciences, education was the key toward that path.

    This was when I believed (rather assumed) education was value added, not just a sorting signal. Over the years I’ve kept my ear to the ground for other HBD-friendly books examining education. True, nothing has really changed since “The Bell Curve” but it’s still somewhat interesting. Education Realist did a very good/engaging review on this book a while back.

  144. Speaking as a parent with a college bound kid, Harvard is by far the stingiest among all elite colleges for need based aid. All other elite colleges said they would give us some aid, with Stanford and Princeton being the most generous. Harvard straight up gives up nada, zip. Oh and their financial aid form is the most ridiculous, even asks you what are your primary, secondary and other family cars, make and model for each, year purchased, price, how much you still owe yada yada. They have zero intention of sharing that $32B endowment with the riff raffs. That money is for hoarding and keeping score. Total Jeweasel school.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    The great Ron Unz once stated: “Harvard It’s a hedge fund masquerading as a University.”

    I personally don’t have the heart to tell him the verdict of the Asian/Harvard discrimination lawsuit. I’m hoping the US Supreme Court will take it up and make things right. If the notorious Ruth Bader Ginsberg steps down, Trump’s nominee might need to remain anonymous and have that suit from “A Scanner Darkly.”

    https://youtu.be/aqWBCsWRdw4
  145. @Anonymous

    So, in the unlikely event that you get a chance to go to Harvard rather than to Directional State U., you might well consider it. For example, if you run into a rough patch, Harvard has the resources to help you avoid flunking out. And if you are thriving intellectually, Harvard has all sorts of delightful amenities for the best minds.

    In turn, some lucrative careers such as consulting and investment banking don’t recruit much at non-rich colleges.
     
    There is really no end to the ways in which nice things are better than non-nice things, is there?

    But there are some tools that flyover country nonelite yokels have in their armamentaria, if only they would use them. One would be not to elect Ivy Leaguers or T14 law graduates to political office. Hell, except for DA and Attorney General, why elect any law school graduates at all? I figure any lawyer running for public office is by definition probably a mediocre or poor attorney anyway, except maybe Oscar Goodman, on the theory the mob hires only good lawyers inasmuch as they have the money to do so.

    Another would be to incessantly hector their senators on making the government make those snooty firms governments have to deal with hire out of the better state schools or lose those lucrative contracts.

    Another would be to make sport of and ridicule the local big swinging dickettes of suburbia who brag about their college sportsball booterism and remind them in front of their friends that the real winners sponsor Victory! in stuff that really matters instead of sportsball. No one cares who invented basketball or what stadium most intimidates its visitors.

    One would be not to elect Ivy Leaguers or T14 law graduates to political office.

    After the disastrous 28 straight years of Bush Sr – Clinton – W. – Obama, and the string of bad decisions by SCOTUS judges from Citizens United to Super PAC to Gay Marriage, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The next ten POTUS & SCOTUS judges must not be someone who went to Harvard or Yale. These two institutions have done more damage to the country than any other institution with their pompous, elitist, completely overrated moron legacy/affirmative action hack graduates.

    The only exception I would make is for Kris Kobach. He’s good in spite of his Harvard degree, not because of it.

  146. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1182928941637668864

    This means one of two things:

    1) More college educated women who go into “pink collar” jobs will end up marrying males without college degrees, e.g. elementary teachers marrying police officers.

    2) More college educated women with professional degrees will end up marrying non-white males with professional degrees. College educated black males esp. ones with professional degrees are hot commodities these days, both white and black women are practically throwing themselves at them.

  147. @Kronos
    I conducted a major paper in High School on how to improve public schools. It proved a project that really opened my eyes to a very nefarious system. I did research on most of the major people (John Dewey) and strategies/theories on education. I was perplexed (then frustrated) that nothing seemed to improve (or even decrease) education ability. That for the last 50+ years all attempts to improve attainment could be condensed into a wet fart.

    That’s when I encountered the dreaded “Necronomicon” of education and social sciences as a whole; Charles Murray’s “The Bell Curve.” It’s hard to explain the high level of indoctrination 1990s-2000s kids received on “race doesn’t exist” and “grades are entirely dependent on hard work” messaging. I had never encountered such a piece of alien thought and counter explanation for low-ability students. Keep in mind I previously attributed it strictly to poverty (the old explanation) compared to the contemporary (white man is evil) meme we have today.

    This is around the same time I first encountered the perpetual glory which is Steve Sailer. This was one of the first articles I encountered during my genetics and IQ “binge.”


    https://vdare.com/articles/pisa-scores-show-demography-is-destiny-in-education-too-but-washington-doesn-t-want-you-to-know

    Keep in mind I knew well enough to never let my teachers and project supervisor know about my alternative research. For the main project I recommended that public schools should be nationalized and bring the subsequent standardization with it. (They liked that.) After that, I didn’t return to any HBD related websites until around Trump’s Presidential run. (Liberal tears are a addictive narcotic.)

    By High School I understood education was typically a waste of time. I went to a decent college just because I could easily afford it. Also, there is a very real social stigma for not going to college. (Especially amongst the upper classes.) With the genetics of IQ and a poor job market regardless of industry (remember 2008?), college mainly just serves as a means to allow Boomer parents bragging rights. I’m serious, there is no economic justification to pay that kind of money. The cost benefit analysis is atrocious. If the social stigma wasn’t there, it’ll better just to pocket the money and invest in tangible assets.

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/i9PNn50iy4Q/hqdefault.jpg

    Thanks.

  148. @anonn
    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists, ALL of whom went an Ivy League law school: Harvard (Roberts, Scalia) or Yale (Thomas, Alito). (Kennedy went to both Harvard and Stanford).

    Since conservatives can't honestly win elections anymore, practically everything that the conservative movement has achieved in recent years has been achieved by 5 lawyers who went to Ivy League schools.

    “In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists,”

    baloney

    “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

    In the language usage of the day, militia simply means armed citizens.

    well regulated means competent in the use of the weapons. Back then there were no magazine style firearms. There were flintlocks that had to have powder and shot loaded, no bullet cartridges, no point and shoot guns.

    The text clearly states that a free country requires people to have weapons and be competent in their use. This was ratified by every state. It was demanded by every state. You cannot live without weapons on a frontier with dangerous wild animals, no secure source of food, and no police protection. Therefore the people must be allowed to have guns in order to be secure in their persons.

  149. Yeah. Rich kids that don’t work very hard in school but end up with good SAT scores.

    Couldn’t happen.

  150. @anonn
    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists, ALL of whom went an Ivy League law school: Harvard (Roberts, Scalia) or Yale (Thomas, Alito). (Kennedy went to both Harvard and Stanford).

    Since conservatives can't honestly win elections anymore, practically everything that the conservative movement has achieved in recent years has been achieved by 5 lawyers who went to Ivy League schools.

    “invented”…”hard right judicial activists”…LOL;talk about damning with faint praise!

    The five judges merely recognized what historians like Joyce Lee Malcom, Clayton Cramer, et al. have uncovered in the past few decades vis-a-vis “Right to Keep and Bear Arms.” And that was just for handguns.

    Where are the pro-gun decisions in favor of assault rifles? Will we see full-auto gun manufacture for the civilian market and knock out the Hughes Amendment preventing FA construction?

    • Replies: @donvonburg

    Where are the pro-gun decisions in favor of assault rifles? Will we see full-auto gun manufacture for the civilian market and knock out the Hughes Amendment preventing FA construction?
     
    The 1934 NFA made the civilian ownership of "Title II Firearms" de facto illegal, as it was designed to, because they feared that a de jure ban would be thrown out by courts on grounds of federal jurisdiction. Since they were not technically banned but made legal contingent on the payment of a tax, and taxation was within the federal government's purview, this was not challenged, even though it was obvious that by charging $200 per firearm, the intent was not to raise revenue but prohibit ownership. At that time, a new Ford car could be had for $520, and decent houses often for $2000-3000.

    Title II weapons, or NFA firearms, are designations of certain weapons under the United States National Firearms Act (NFA).

    These are weapons requiring a Type 01 Federal Firearms License (FFL) as well as a Class 3 Special Occupation Tax (SOT) to sell, and an ATF Form 4 (transfer of registration) with $200 tax stamp to purchase. Also a Type 07 FFL (manufacturer) with a Class 2 Special Occupation Tax is qualified to purchase and sell. [1] The restrictions apply to certain firearms, explosive munitions, and other devices which are federally regulated by the NFA.[2][3] Any violation of the NFA is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison.[4] Per the National Rifle Association's Summary of Gun Control Act of 1968:[5]

    Title II of the Gun Control Act of 1968 is a revision of the National Firearms Act of 1934, and pertains to machine guns, short or "sawed-off" shotguns and rifles, and so-called "destructive devices" (including grenades, mortars, rocket launchers, large projectiles, and other heavy ordnance). Acquisition of these weapons is subject to prior approval of the Attorney General, and federal registration is required for possession. Generally, a $200 tax is imposed upon each transfer or making of any Title II weapon.

    The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), which enforces federal firearms law, refers to such weapons as "NFA firearms".[6] NFA firearms include machine guns, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, heavy weapons, explosive ordnance, silencers and "any other weapon" (AOW), such as disguised or improvised firearms.[3]

    Title I weapons, or GCA firearms, are standard rifles, shotguns, and handguns.

     

    The Hughes Amendment simply made impossible what was already ludicrous and impractical, although inflation made the $200 payment much more feasible, the requirement for BATF investigation and approval for every trade (which took months then and over a year now), the need to get fingerprinted, et al, and the fact that any registered NFA owner would be Target One for a confiscation visit if the weapons were outlawed eventually kept most people quite rationally from getting involved.

    I have friends who are legal registered NFA firearm owners. I think it's a bad idea to get involved with this because the value of the weapons, now very high, is entirely dependent on the law staying the same in the future. If it goes either way you are wiped out. If the law is done away with or if the US government which enforces it is itself replaced, superceded or destroyed, the firearms will be worth what they already are on the international arms dealing market- Vietnam era M16s for a few hundred bucks, ditto M2 carbines, Uzis for five or six hundred, open bolt Thompsons a few hundred. WWII era German weapons and closed bolt Thompsons may have some premium but not much.

    On the other hand, the law may simply outlaw civilian possession of these entirely (which today no court will fight) and the ATF agents will be at your door next Monday morning. Maybe with a check for "fair market value" for your weapon and maybe not, and for "fair market value", see above.
  151. @anonymous
    "Lower skilled males go into the trades and become plumbers, electricians etc. Lower skilled females go to college to become elementary school teachers, secretaries etc."

    Lower skilled in what? Differently skilled yes. Take your average law graduate from Harvard and he wouldn't have a clue on how to install a three phase electric motor nor the theory behind it as the electrician probably wouldn't know how to argue the finer points of Roe vs Wade before a district court judge. Different skills but not better skills. The country could survive without lawyers but not without electricians, everything would come to a stop. Think about it.

    The country could survive without lawyers but not without electricians, everything would come to a stop.

    True.

  152. @Walsh2
    Based on current and recent crop of Harvard/Yale Law grads, if that trend continues, i.e. SCOTUS made up of primarily Harvard/Yale grads, this country will be past the point of no return.

    My only quibble with your comment is to say that the USA is already past the point of no return.

  153. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Yer maiyrks!

    Yer maiyrks!

    You get an A for effort.

  154. @anonn
    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists, ALL of whom went an Ivy League law school: Harvard (Roberts, Scalia) or Yale (Thomas, Alito). (Kennedy went to both Harvard and Stanford).

    Since conservatives can't honestly win elections anymore, practically everything that the conservative movement has achieved in recent years has been achieved by 5 lawyers who went to Ivy League schools.

    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial

    No. But it is nice to hear from the fevered imagination of a half-wit. Your 2nd Amendment’s dismissal may be due to your ignorance, or perhaps your mendacity, but the likeliest explanation is your stupidity.

    If you want to be a subject, emigrate to Europe. We are American Citizens, you are a damned parasite at best, and a toxic cancer otherwise.

  155. @Kronos
    Your welcome, Sailer did a superb article on it a few years back. It’s the reason I purchased in the first place.

    https://www.takimag.com/article/getting_schooled_steve_sailer/

    Another good one in the same vain is “Bad Students, Not Bad Schools” by Robert Weissberg.

    https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Students-Not-Schools/dp/141281345X

    Weissberg provides a better framework on how to encourage 100+ IQ students to reach their potential. That contemporary education not only inhibits itself with low-ability students but the cognitive heavy hitters don’t have any reason to play ball. They’re often de-facto stand-in teacher aids and help other students for free.

    Keep in mind if your in the education profession you might want to pace yourself. Otherwise it might lead to a blue liquor bath of depression.

    https://youtu.be/F5JXrSpap8c

    Another good one in the same vain is “Bad Students, Not Bad Schools” by Robert Weissberg.

    I’ll extend you the courtesy of blaming your teachers for that one.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    That’s writing under the gun. The secret to achieving top comment (or near) is to have a work schedule that (incidentally) somewhat synchronizes with iSteve posts. You write during your breaks and publish whatever you have by the end of it. Sometimes you miss stuff (like that) by accident.

    But yeah, that’s a bad one. Also, finding complimentary pictures and photos (a Kronos staple) is time consuming.
  156. @Anon
    Steve, you say, "This country needs to reform testing, to get it back to doing the job it did fairly well in the past.”

    Can you be more specific? For instance,

    -- Do you buy into the story about test prepping skewing things? Do you think they need to be making more prep-resistant tests? Would dynamic, computerized tests be less prep-resistant?

    My view is that “test prep” is the new “implicit bias,” African voodoo, in that you can offer free test prep, as they did in New York, and it won’t change anything, and then they will say that rich whites and poor Asians get the good stuff, the really exepensive "magic prep” that isn’t available to others. In addition, I think that having the initiative and boredom-tolerancne to go to test prep on a regular basis says something positive about you that universities should want to know, outsite of cost issues (but here we have unsubstantiated claims that black kids are working jobs or taking care of step-siblings or burdened by stress and thus cannot attend prep irrespective of the cost).

    -- Do you think the SAT should be more g-loaded and thus harder to prep for either via test prep or even just by taking a lot of classes and studying hard? (This might make boys score even higher.)

    -- The appendix of The Bell Curve convinced me that researchers have the cultural bias stuff under control, but do you think that the SAT may be culturally biased?

    -- The Americans with Disabilities Act has managed to infect the reliability of the test. What do you think should be done about the disabled and SAT testing? I think that if your disability interferes with test taking, it’s going to interfere with your academic and job performance. I’d like to see an honest reporting of test scores on an apples-to-apples basis, with perhaps a secondary score or some sort of handicap reported that can be used to adjust a handicapped person’s score by the university, without polluting the raw data of the scores.

    -- You’ve mentioned making the range of the test much wider so as to give granular results for test-takers two or three standard deviations beyond what they now measure.

    -- Should the test be free or subsidized?

    -- Should multiple tests be outlawed, or at least should it be impossible to hide multiple results from institutions?

    The effect of test prepping is way overstated. It really doesn’t change scores that much. Between my two kids who took the SAT 3x, one consistently scores in the mid 1500’s, the other in the mid 1400’s. Both scores went up by 100 points between the second and first sitting, but only 10 points btwn the third and second sitting. Both “test prepped” by taking all 4 of the free practice tests on College Board’s website before the first sitting, and nothing more.

  157. @Triumph104
    Alex Sanchez is 24 years-old and earns $230k/year. No college. He is a lineman with the electric company, owns a lawncare business with employees, and has three rental homes. He paid cash for two of the properties. He lives at home and pays $250/month for rent.

    https://youtu.be/6bi2XvD0eXw

    Far too many people with names such as Sanchez in West Chicago. It’s a pit.

  158. @anonn
    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists, ALL of whom went an Ivy League law school: Harvard (Roberts, Scalia) or Yale (Thomas, Alito). (Kennedy went to both Harvard and Stanford).

    Since conservatives can't honestly win elections anymore, practically everything that the conservative movement has achieved in recent years has been achieved by 5 lawyers who went to Ivy League schools.

    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists, A

    In reality, the text is right there in the 2d amendment. It takes some…inventiveness to understand the phrase ‘the right of the people’ to not refer to a personal right in this text when it does in legal texts generally.

    The people who ‘can’t win elections anymore’ control most state legislative houses and the upper chamber of Congress, not to mention the presidency.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
  159. @AndrewR
    Heaven forbid a woman marry a "less educated" man

    Heaven forbid a woman marry a “less educated” man

    Contra the hypergamy hoaxers, more and more women are doing just that.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Contra the hypergamy hoaxers, more and more women are doing just that
     
    Desperation at work.
    , @Anonymous

    Contra the hypergamy hoaxers, more and more women are doing just that.
     
    But more and more women aren't even getting married in the first place. The marriage rate has been in steady decline since the '70s. That's the context of your claim that more women are marrying less educated men. If next year, nobody got married except for a woman with a Phd and a man with a 3rd grade education, you could assert that 100% of marriages were between women and less educated men, but it would be in a context in which marriage has collapsed.

    "US Marriage Rate Drops to New Low"

    https://www.livescience.com/38308-us-marriage-rate-new-low.html

    "The marriage rate in the United States is continuing its decades-long downward slide, with fewer American women than ever getting married and others waiting longer to wed, according to a new report.

    The marriage rate has fluctuated in the past, with dips in the 1930s and 1960s, but it has been in steady decline since the 1970s."

  160. @Reg Cæsar

    Another good one in the same vain is “Bad Students, Not Bad Schools” by Robert Weissberg.
     
    I'll extend you the courtesy of blaming your teachers for that one.

    That’s writing under the gun. The secret to achieving top comment (or near) is to have a work schedule that (incidentally) somewhat synchronizes with iSteve posts. You write during your breaks and publish whatever you have by the end of it. Sometimes you miss stuff (like that) by accident.

    But yeah, that’s a bad one. Also, finding complimentary pictures and photos (a Kronos staple) is time consuming.

    • Replies: @res

    But yeah, that’s a bad one.
     
    Not sure it's as bad as "your welcome" (comment 126) or "principle" (comment 117) as the head of a school.

    You have some interesting thoughts on education, but probably best to make a bit more of an effort to catch things like that if you want to be taken seriously. Especially on that particular topic ; )
  161. @RAZ
    Can discuss what the attempts to be inclusive in other areas has meant for College and Law/Med School admissions. But think the girls are there on merit.

    But think the girls are there on merit.

    They absolutely are there on merit. If they weren’t, you would see them disproportionately flunking the bar exam, which they do not.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Where is their published data on comparative bar passage rates? The ABA data is broken down by school and state.
  162. @JimB

    Heaven forbid a woman marry a “less educated” man
     
    High IQ men (top 1%) are almost always good providers. High IQ men with education will probably be outstanding in their field and get the best paying jobs, while high IQ men without education can still be outstanding earners because they aren't snobs about how to make money. On the other hand "Educated" men may not be good providers if they are educated to do things that don't pay much, like journalism or social work.

    Women should decide accordingly in mate selection. Time to invent the MSAT: Mate Selection Aptitude Test. There could be MSATF and MSATM versions which specifically test what the sexes are known to be good at. That way there are no surprises when your kid ends up going to Arizona State and starring in a porn film.

    Male provision is irrelevant. Women have their own resources. Even Suck and Gates had to scrap for wives who visibly hate touching them. High iq is repulsive to women, unless married to charisma and dominance. And risk taking.

    Women have their own resources. No need to compromise. A sexy low is thug beats a PhD every time.

    • Replies: @JimB

    Women have their own resources. No need to compromise. A sexy low is thug beats a PhD every time.
     
    Until a woman wants to get pregnant.
  163. @anon
    Also, while it would be extremely un-PC to notice, the economic ROI of female higher education is clearly lower than for males. As just one example, a high percentage of female law school grads never practice

    Women doctors tend to gravitate towards family medicine and pediatrics, leaving a smaller pool of doctors for other specialities draw from. I don't know what the average age of a cardiac surgeon is, but I bet it's "over 50". Then once in practice, women doctors tend to work fewer hours than men, are more prone to go to half time, more prone to leave the practice. This should not surprise anyone except for the most rabid blank-slate true believers.

    Every woman sitting in a med school chair is taking a place that might be used by a man who would work longer hours, more years, in something other than family / pediatrics. That's opportunity cost.

    Every woman sitting in a med school chair is taking a place that might be used by a man who would work longer hours, more years, in something other than family / pediatrics. That’s opportunity cost.

    Here it is again.

    If women are ambitious careerists, that would be wrong. That we are not is also wrong and warrants limiting our options in life. Unz might as well be Forbes magazine with the constant obsession with the bottom line. GDP uber alles.

    • Agree: Bill Jones
    • Replies: @Moses

    If women are ambitious careerists, that would be wrong. That we are not is also wrong and warrants limiting our options in life.
     
    That's your feelz talking.

    The point here is women become part-time pediatricians or dermatologists (or whatever) at a rate way higher than men doctors. That's a fact.

    Men tend to work longer and harder (heh) than women do, and also specialize and obsess. Women don't do that.

    Given the same investment, is society better or worse off with a higher % of MDs going part-time general, or not?

    Seems quite clear to me.

    Anecdotally, my mother's primary care doc is a part-time mommy doc type. She works just a few days per week and is NEVER available after hours for any kind of communication. I took my mother on an overseas trip where she fell ill. I desperately tried to contact her primary doc, leaving many messages, and never received a response.

    Contrast to a surgical specialist for another problem. This man responds to emails personally within 8 hours 24/7. He is obsessive and takes personal pride in his work. Men obsess over technical stuff in a way women just don't. It's how we're wired.

    Personally I prefer a specialist or even primary doc who chose his profession for excellence instead of comfortable lifestyle.

    If you want to make a social statement and receive your care from a part-time mommy doc that is your business.

    , @Anonymous
    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited. If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more. The more docs that mommy track, retire early or leave medicine the more they’ll have to expand.

    The real shortages are in rural practice and in a few specific research areas. That is not going to change.

    The AMA is able to maintain this because medicine is mostly regulated at the state legislature level. They need to control a dozen or less states and the others will toady along. State legislators are scared of doctors.
  164. @Kronos
    Also, you might get a kick out of this.

    https://theaspergian.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/88183678_hetero_couples_624.png.jpg

    It’s all bars and online dating now.

    This is key insight. Women now value sexiness and charisma instead of personality, social network, possibility of future wealth, etc. Women are the decision makers and it’s clear sex is the only criteria.

    Let’s hope sex bots come about and introduce some real competition among women forcing them to compete down the ladder from the top 5% men.

    Women have one advantage their … Having a man’s kid. If course that relation would be contractual and transaction all but you can’t unscramble eggs.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    I’m thinking this isn’t too far off the mark.

    https://youtu.be/wJ6knaienVE
  165. @Kronos
    It’s noted. Want me to change “chicks” to “women” while I’m at it?

    It’s noted. Want me to change “chicks” to “women” while I’m at it?

    “Chix” or “Broads” please.

    Mocking aside, word choice matters.

    “Guys” has a different meaning than “Men.”

    “Guys” is a bunch of teens hanging out playing video games and eating Cheetos. “Men” is, well, Men.

    If you mean “Men” use it.

    Media likes “guys” because they don’t like “Men”. Toxic masculinity and all that.

    That is all.

  166. @Rosie

    Every woman sitting in a med school chair is taking a place that might be used by a man who would work longer hours, more years, in something other than family / pediatrics. That’s opportunity cost.
     
    Here it is again.

    If women are ambitious careerists, that would be wrong. That we are not is also wrong and warrants limiting our options in life. Unz might as well be Forbes magazine with the constant obsession with the bottom line. GDP uber alles.

    If women are ambitious careerists, that would be wrong. That we are not is also wrong and warrants limiting our options in life.

    That’s your feelz talking.

    The point here is women become part-time pediatricians or dermatologists (or whatever) at a rate way higher than men doctors. That’s a fact.

    Men tend to work longer and harder (heh) than women do, and also specialize and obsess. Women don’t do that.

    Given the same investment, is society better or worse off with a higher % of MDs going part-time general, or not?

    Seems quite clear to me.

    Anecdotally, my mother’s primary care doc is a part-time mommy doc type. She works just a few days per week and is NEVER available after hours for any kind of communication. I took my mother on an overseas trip where she fell ill. I desperately tried to contact her primary doc, leaving many messages, and never received a response.

    Contrast to a surgical specialist for another problem. This man responds to emails personally within 8 hours 24/7. He is obsessive and takes personal pride in his work. Men obsess over technical stuff in a way women just don’t. It’s how we’re wired.

    Personally I prefer a specialist or even primary doc who chose his profession for excellence instead of comfortable lifestyle.

    If you want to make a social statement and receive your care from a part-time mommy doc that is your business.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    The point here is women become part-time pediatricians or dermatologists (or whatever) at a rate way higher than men doctors. That’s a fact.
     
    So what?


    If you want to make a social statement and receive your care from a part-time mommy doc that is your business.
     
    And if you want to insist that your doctor be at your beckon call 24 hours a day, that's your business. Personally, I think that's kind of obnoxious. But whatever.
  167. @anonn
    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists, ALL of whom went an Ivy League law school: Harvard (Roberts, Scalia) or Yale (Thomas, Alito). (Kennedy went to both Harvard and Stanford).

    Since conservatives can't honestly win elections anymore, practically everything that the conservative movement has achieved in recent years has been achieved by 5 lawyers who went to Ivy League schools.

    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists…

    In reality, the right of [a Negro] to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists…

    Fixed Well-regulated it for you.

  168. @Art Deco
    Girls outperform boys at all or mostly all school levels. Think Med School and Law school are now about equal male/female.

    The ratio of men to women in the working population is about 1.12. As we speak, the ratio of men to women among those awarded baccalaureate degrees is about 0.75. However, that does not hold for all categories. About 56% of all men receiving degrees do so in fields where the ratio of men to women exceeds 1.12. These are as follows (with the ratio of men to women appended).

    Mechanic and repair technologies/technicians: 17.93
    Transportation and materials moving: 7.20
    Engineering technologies and engineering-related: 6.74
    Construction trades: 6.65
    Military technologies and applied sciences: 5.89
    Computer and information sciences: 4.23
    Engineering: 3.64
    Theology and religious vocations: 2.30
    Communications technologies: 1.65
    Philosophy and religious studies: 1.62
    Physical sciences and science technologies: 1.51
    History: 1.46
    Mathematics and statistics: 1.39
    Precision production: 1.28
    Architecture and related services: 1.14
    Homeland security, law enforcement, and firefighting: 1.12
    Business: 1.12

    The following categories account for 56% of the baccalaureate degrees awarded to women. The ratio of men to women is noted:

    Library science: 0.11
    Family and consumer sciences/human sciences: 0.13
    Health professions and related programs: 0.18
    Public administration and social services: 0.21
    Education: 0.23
    Psychology: 0.27
    Area, ethnic, cultural, gender, and group studies: 0.37
    English language and literature/letters: 0.42
    Foreign languages, literatures, and linguistics: 0.46
    Legal professions and studies: 0.46
    Multi/interdisciplinary studies: 0.51
    Communication, journalism, and related programs: 0.52
    Liberal arts and sciences, general studies, and: 0.57
    Visual and performing arts: 0.63


    NB: "Family and Consumer Sciences" refers to a jumble of things. The most common discrete major is human development, which accounts for about 1/3. In 'health professions', the most common degree is registered nursing, accounting for 57% of the whole. About 60% of those in the 'public administration' category received social work degrees.

    I knew a woman who got her PhD in “Leadership.” She didn’t even mind me mocking the word, so I guess, although she was working with all scales removed from her eyes, she was just going with the flow.

  169. @Rosie

    Heaven forbid a woman marry a “less educated” man
     
    Contra the hypergamy hoaxers, more and more women are doing just that.

    https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/dn_marry_down.jpg

    Contra the hypergamy hoaxers, more and more women are doing just that

    Desperation at work.

  170. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Heaven forbid a woman marry a “less educated” man
     
    Contra the hypergamy hoaxers, more and more women are doing just that.

    https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/dn_marry_down.jpg

    Contra the hypergamy hoaxers, more and more women are doing just that.

    But more and more women aren’t even getting married in the first place. The marriage rate has been in steady decline since the ’70s. That’s the context of your claim that more women are marrying less educated men. If next year, nobody got married except for a woman with a Phd and a man with a 3rd grade education, you could assert that 100% of marriages were between women and less educated men, but it would be in a context in which marriage has collapsed.

    “US Marriage Rate Drops to New Low”

    https://www.livescience.com/38308-us-marriage-rate-new-low.html

    “The marriage rate in the United States is continuing its decades-long downward slide, with fewer American women than ever getting married and others waiting longer to wed, according to a new report.

    The marriage rate has fluctuated in the past, with dips in the 1930s and 1960s, but it has been in steady decline since the 1970s.”

    • Replies: @Rosie

    The marriage rate has fluctuated in the past, with dips in the 1930s and 1960s, but it has been in steady decline since the 1970s.”
     
    A phenomenon which you continue to blame on women, without a shred of evidence.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/a-lack-of-marriageable-men-is-affecting-womens-career-choices-2012-4


    Sex ratios involving a scarcity of men led women to seek lucrative careers because of the difficulty women have in finding an investing, long-term mate under such circumstances. Accordingly, this low-male sex ratio produced the strongest desire for lucrative careers in women who are least able to secure a mate."
     
  171. @Kronos
    China calls it “yellow pearl” syndrome.

    China calls it “yellow pearl” syndrome.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    I’m not that familiar with the “Steven Universe” show. Often big channels incorporate snippets for YouTube Gifs.

    Typically yellow pearls are old tarnished pearls that need polishing like old silver. (I’m actually not sure how to clean them.)

    http://www.gifmemoreparty.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/menu-pearl-guide.jpg

    https://laurelleaffarm.com/item-photos/antique-silver-over-copper-tray-huge-vintage-estate-silver-plate-serving-tray-Laurel-Leaf-Farm-item-no-u102925-4.jpg

  172. @Reg Cæsar

    China calls it “yellow pearl” syndrome.

     

    https://gartic.com.br/imgs/mural/sh/shinylighting/yellow-pearl.png

    I’m not that familiar with the “Steven Universe” show. Often big channels incorporate snippets for YouTube Gifs.

    Typically yellow pearls are old tarnished pearls that need polishing like old silver. (I’m actually not sure how to clean them.)

  173. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    Do these people really not realize that a persistent mismatch between actual talent and aptitude on the one hand and opportunities and education on the other will be the end of us?

    Do the Chinese do this? (I suspect that Han are favored, but not to the extent that others are excluded from earned opportunities in favor of Han).

    China has practiced affirmative action in college admissions since 1949.

    Minority students applying to universities receive bonus points on the National Higher Education Entrance Examination (gaokao). In 2009 authorities in Chongqing uncovered 31 high school students pretending to be members of a minority group in order to gain test points, and in 2011 Inner Mongolia authorities uncovered about 800 students pretending to be members of a minority group. There is a system of universities exclusively for minority students.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_China

  174. @Anon
    You may be right on the facts, but I don’t think that 17-year-olds are thinking like that. How would they know anything about girl attributes by university? And how many college kids thinking of HVAC are going to college? How many college kids capable of being accepted by an Ivy are thinking of HVAC? It might be the smart thing to do, but it’s not in the minds of 17-year-old smart boys.

    I applied to a range of colleges, many years ago, but I didn’t think I’d get into the Ivy or Stanford, and I did it as kind of a flier, since I didn’t think we could afford it. As it so happened, my parents got divorced just in time for me to be part of my mother’s zero income household, and UCLA offered me an all-expenses-paid Regents Scholarship (plus priority class assignment before the hoi polloi, free parking, guaranteed dorm assignment, faculty advisor, etc.). It never occurred to me that I might have had that kind of an offer from an Ivy. And as I mentioned above, I am not sure that such support is to be had by poor white kids even today. Does Harvard pay full freight for poor white boys today? I think not, but if they do the knowledge of that is not part of the zeitgeist, which would account for a lower percentage of applications from poor flyover white boys.

    If you can get into an Ivy, you would be foolish to go into HVAC, simply because it’s a physically tough trade and you will be a physical wreck by 45-50. Even guys who start their own business and hire other people wind up out in the field enough, changing out a Copeland on the roof of a supermarket two hours away from home at 4 am after a full day at work and then coaching Little League.

    And basically it’s boring if you have an IQ much over 120. Basically you are moving heat from one place to another, generating it by burning stuff or with electric elements, and moving the heated or cooled air around.

    Going to a trade instead of Middle State U on the other hand makes a lot of sense for some. But keep in mind that most trades are tough on the body after twenty years in. I worked with these guys who were my age or just a little older who had been in the field for twenty years and they were pretty hobbled.

  175. @Joe Stalin
    "invented"..."hard right judicial activists"...LOL;talk about damning with faint praise!

    The five judges merely recognized what historians like Joyce Lee Malcom, Clayton Cramer, et al. have uncovered in the past few decades vis-a-vis "Right to Keep and Bear Arms." And that was just for handguns.

    Where are the pro-gun decisions in favor of assault rifles? Will we see full-auto gun manufacture for the civilian market and knock out the Hughes Amendment preventing FA construction?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxHIM9tyyrc

    Where are the pro-gun decisions in favor of assault rifles? Will we see full-auto gun manufacture for the civilian market and knock out the Hughes Amendment preventing FA construction?

    The 1934 NFA made the civilian ownership of “Title II Firearms” de facto illegal, as it was designed to, because they feared that a de jure ban would be thrown out by courts on grounds of federal jurisdiction. Since they were not technically banned but made legal contingent on the payment of a tax, and taxation was within the federal government’s purview, this was not challenged, even though it was obvious that by charging $200 per firearm, the intent was not to raise revenue but prohibit ownership. At that time, a new Ford car could be had for $520, and decent houses often for $2000-3000.

    Title II weapons, or NFA firearms, are designations of certain weapons under the United States National Firearms Act (NFA).

    These are weapons requiring a Type 01 Federal Firearms License (FFL) as well as a Class 3 Special Occupation Tax (SOT) to sell, and an ATF Form 4 (transfer of registration) with $200 tax stamp to purchase. Also a Type 07 FFL (manufacturer) with a Class 2 Special Occupation Tax is qualified to purchase and sell. [1] The restrictions apply to certain firearms, explosive munitions, and other devices which are federally regulated by the NFA.[2][3] Any violation of the NFA is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison.[4] Per the National Rifle Association’s Summary of Gun Control Act of 1968:[5]

    Title II of the Gun Control Act of 1968 is a revision of the National Firearms Act of 1934, and pertains to machine guns, short or “sawed-off” shotguns and rifles, and so-called “destructive devices” (including grenades, mortars, rocket launchers, large projectiles, and other heavy ordnance). Acquisition of these weapons is subject to prior approval of the Attorney General, and federal registration is required for possession. Generally, a $200 tax is imposed upon each transfer or making of any Title II weapon.

    The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), which enforces federal firearms law, refers to such weapons as “NFA firearms”.[6] NFA firearms include machine guns, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, heavy weapons, explosive ordnance, silencers and “any other weapon” (AOW), such as disguised or improvised firearms.[3]

    Title I weapons, or GCA firearms, are standard rifles, shotguns, and handguns.

    The Hughes Amendment simply made impossible what was already ludicrous and impractical, although inflation made the $200 payment much more feasible, the requirement for BATF investigation and approval for every trade (which took months then and over a year now), the need to get fingerprinted, et al, and the fact that any registered NFA owner would be Target One for a confiscation visit if the weapons were outlawed eventually kept most people quite rationally from getting involved.

    I have friends who are legal registered NFA firearm owners. I think it’s a bad idea to get involved with this because the value of the weapons, now very high, is entirely dependent on the law staying the same in the future. If it goes either way you are wiped out. If the law is done away with or if the US government which enforces it is itself replaced, superceded or destroyed, the firearms will be worth what they already are on the international arms dealing market- Vietnam era M16s for a few hundred bucks, ditto M2 carbines, Uzis for five or six hundred, open bolt Thompsons a few hundred. WWII era German weapons and closed bolt Thompsons may have some premium but not much.

    On the other hand, the law may simply outlaw civilian possession of these entirely (which today no court will fight) and the ATF agents will be at your door next Monday morning. Maybe with a check for “fair market value” for your weapon and maybe not, and for “fair market value”, see above.

  176. @Tweety Bird
    Speaking as a parent with a college bound kid, Harvard is by far the stingiest among all elite colleges for need based aid. All other elite colleges said they would give us some aid, with Stanford and Princeton being the most generous. Harvard straight up gives up nada, zip. Oh and their financial aid form is the most ridiculous, even asks you what are your primary, secondary and other family cars, make and model for each, year purchased, price, how much you still owe yada yada. They have zero intention of sharing that $32B endowment with the riff raffs. That money is for hoarding and keeping score. Total Jeweasel school.

    The great Ron Unz once stated: “Harvard It’s a hedge fund masquerading as a University.”

    I personally don’t have the heart to tell him the verdict of the Asian/Harvard discrimination lawsuit. I’m hoping the US Supreme Court will take it up and make things right. If the notorious Ruth Bader Ginsberg steps down, Trump’s nominee might need to remain anonymous and have that suit from “A Scanner Darkly.”

  177. @Moses

    If women are ambitious careerists, that would be wrong. That we are not is also wrong and warrants limiting our options in life.
     
    That's your feelz talking.

    The point here is women become part-time pediatricians or dermatologists (or whatever) at a rate way higher than men doctors. That's a fact.

    Men tend to work longer and harder (heh) than women do, and also specialize and obsess. Women don't do that.

    Given the same investment, is society better or worse off with a higher % of MDs going part-time general, or not?

    Seems quite clear to me.

    Anecdotally, my mother's primary care doc is a part-time mommy doc type. She works just a few days per week and is NEVER available after hours for any kind of communication. I took my mother on an overseas trip where she fell ill. I desperately tried to contact her primary doc, leaving many messages, and never received a response.

    Contrast to a surgical specialist for another problem. This man responds to emails personally within 8 hours 24/7. He is obsessive and takes personal pride in his work. Men obsess over technical stuff in a way women just don't. It's how we're wired.

    Personally I prefer a specialist or even primary doc who chose his profession for excellence instead of comfortable lifestyle.

    If you want to make a social statement and receive your care from a part-time mommy doc that is your business.

    The point here is women become part-time pediatricians or dermatologists (or whatever) at a rate way higher than men doctors. That’s a fact.

    So what?

    If you want to make a social statement and receive your care from a part-time mommy doc that is your business.

    And if you want to insist that your doctor be at your beckon call 24 hours a day, that’s your business. Personally, I think that’s kind of obnoxious. But whatever.

    • Replies: @Nico

    So what?
     
    The “so what?” is that the country can train only so many physicians per year and if a significant proportion of those are not going to practice at all or going to practice only part-time, such a situation is not reflective of a desirable or sustainable resource allocation.

    You will always find outliers. You will always find exceptions to the trends (female full-time surgeons, male part-time generalists, etc.) When we are speaking of general trends such as the impact of the feminization of medical care delivery, we have to treat in aggregate wholes.
  178. @Anonymous

    Contra the hypergamy hoaxers, more and more women are doing just that.
     
    But more and more women aren't even getting married in the first place. The marriage rate has been in steady decline since the '70s. That's the context of your claim that more women are marrying less educated men. If next year, nobody got married except for a woman with a Phd and a man with a 3rd grade education, you could assert that 100% of marriages were between women and less educated men, but it would be in a context in which marriage has collapsed.

    "US Marriage Rate Drops to New Low"

    https://www.livescience.com/38308-us-marriage-rate-new-low.html

    "The marriage rate in the United States is continuing its decades-long downward slide, with fewer American women than ever getting married and others waiting longer to wed, according to a new report.

    The marriage rate has fluctuated in the past, with dips in the 1930s and 1960s, but it has been in steady decline since the 1970s."

    The marriage rate has fluctuated in the past, with dips in the 1930s and 1960s, but it has been in steady decline since the 1970s.”

    A phenomenon which you continue to blame on women, without a shred of evidence.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/a-lack-of-marriageable-men-is-affecting-womens-career-choices-2012-4

    Sex ratios involving a scarcity of men led women to seek lucrative careers because of the difficulty women have in finding an investing, long-term mate under such circumstances. Accordingly, this low-male sex ratio produced the strongest desire for lucrative careers in women who are least able to secure a mate.”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Where exactly did I "blame women"?

    You've been arguing all along against "hypergamy" and asserting that women have no bias against marrying less educated men and are marrying them in droves these days.

    But now you're saying that women in fact aren't getting married and are seeking lucrative careers because there's a shortage of "marriageable" men who would bring home the equivalent of those lucrative careers.

    So which is it? You're contradicting yourself.
  179. @bigdicknick
    Hey so off topic: Is there a way I can donate to Steve King without doxing myself? Like maybe through a PAC or something? Is there even a pro-Steve King pac?

    Make a cash donation by mail in the name of an enemy?

  180. @Rosie

    The point here is women become part-time pediatricians or dermatologists (or whatever) at a rate way higher than men doctors. That’s a fact.
     
    So what?


    If you want to make a social statement and receive your care from a part-time mommy doc that is your business.
     
    And if you want to insist that your doctor be at your beckon call 24 hours a day, that's your business. Personally, I think that's kind of obnoxious. But whatever.

    So what?

    The “so what?” is that the country can train only so many physicians per year and if a significant proportion of those are not going to practice at all or going to practice only part-time, such a situation is not reflective of a desirable or sustainable resource allocation.

    You will always find outliers. You will always find exceptions to the trends (female full-time surgeons, male part-time generalists, etc.) When we are speaking of general trends such as the impact of the feminization of medical care delivery, we have to treat in aggregate wholes.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    The “so what?” is that the country can train only so many physicians per year and if a significant proportion of those are not going to practice at all or going to practice only part-time, such a situation is not reflective of a desirable or sustainable resource allocation.
     
    By all means, let's not open any more medical schools so doctors can work normal hours. We need more consumer junk. GDP uber alles.
    , @Moses
    Advantage: Nico
  181. @Whiskey
    This is key insight. Women now value sexiness and charisma instead of personality, social network, possibility of future wealth, etc. Women are the decision makers and it's clear sex is the only criteria.

    Let's hope sex bots come about and introduce some real competition among women forcing them to compete down the ladder from the top 5% men.

    Women have one advantage their ... Having a man's kid. If course that relation would be contractual and transaction all but you can't unscramble eggs.

    I’m thinking this isn’t too far off the mark.

  182. @Kronos
    That’s writing under the gun. The secret to achieving top comment (or near) is to have a work schedule that (incidentally) somewhat synchronizes with iSteve posts. You write during your breaks and publish whatever you have by the end of it. Sometimes you miss stuff (like that) by accident.

    But yeah, that’s a bad one. Also, finding complimentary pictures and photos (a Kronos staple) is time consuming.

    But yeah, that’s a bad one.

    Not sure it’s as bad as “your welcome” (comment 126) or “principle” (comment 117) as the head of a school.

    You have some interesting thoughts on education, but probably best to make a bit more of an effort to catch things like that if you want to be taken seriously. Especially on that particular topic ; )

    • Replies: @Kronos
    I’ll take it to heart. In College, I often helped STEM majors with their writing. Some of the worst passive voice sentence structures were from math majors. (Who thus maybe switched to journalism and joined the NYT.)

    I know better, and I’m consequently ashamed at myself for those mistakes.
  183. @res

    But yeah, that’s a bad one.
     
    Not sure it's as bad as "your welcome" (comment 126) or "principle" (comment 117) as the head of a school.

    You have some interesting thoughts on education, but probably best to make a bit more of an effort to catch things like that if you want to be taken seriously. Especially on that particular topic ; )

    I’ll take it to heart. In College, I often helped STEM majors with their writing. Some of the worst passive voice sentence structures were from math majors. (Who thus maybe switched to journalism and joined the NYT.)

    I know better, and I’m consequently ashamed at myself for those mistakes.

  184. @Anon
    You may be right on the facts, but I don’t think that 17-year-olds are thinking like that. How would they know anything about girl attributes by university? And how many college kids thinking of HVAC are going to college? How many college kids capable of being accepted by an Ivy are thinking of HVAC? It might be the smart thing to do, but it’s not in the minds of 17-year-old smart boys.

    I applied to a range of colleges, many years ago, but I didn’t think I’d get into the Ivy or Stanford, and I did it as kind of a flier, since I didn’t think we could afford it. As it so happened, my parents got divorced just in time for me to be part of my mother’s zero income household, and UCLA offered me an all-expenses-paid Regents Scholarship (plus priority class assignment before the hoi polloi, free parking, guaranteed dorm assignment, faculty advisor, etc.). It never occurred to me that I might have had that kind of an offer from an Ivy. And as I mentioned above, I am not sure that such support is to be had by poor white kids even today. Does Harvard pay full freight for poor white boys today? I think not, but if they do the knowledge of that is not part of the zeitgeist, which would account for a lower percentage of applications from poor flyover white boys.

    Does Harvard pay full freight for poor white boys today?

    A middle class not-legacy kid in my daughter’s 2007 high school class got a full ride to Harvard.

  185. @Paleo Liberal
    Many of the elite colleges will give a full ride (tuition, room and board) to anyone from a family under a certain income level, usually around $55k or $60 k.

    After that, the college will give a graduated scholarship. For example, Chicago has free tuition but full price room and board at about $120k. Some other elite schools will have free tuition and partial room and board costs at that level.

    One of my kids goes to a fairly prestigious college, but not at the Ivy or equivalent. The list price is over $70k, but with financial aid it is cheaper than in state tuition at U of Wisconsin. Had my kid been at an Ivy, it would have been free tuition and only pay for room and board.

    One of my kids got a full academic scholarship somewhere, pays tuition and fees, and is also a resident assistant so the dorm is free as well. Also gets a few hundred a month in food costs.

    Generally if an Ivy lets you in, they will make sure you can swing the $. Worked for me.

  186. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    The marriage rate has fluctuated in the past, with dips in the 1930s and 1960s, but it has been in steady decline since the 1970s.”
     
    A phenomenon which you continue to blame on women, without a shred of evidence.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/a-lack-of-marriageable-men-is-affecting-womens-career-choices-2012-4


    Sex ratios involving a scarcity of men led women to seek lucrative careers because of the difficulty women have in finding an investing, long-term mate under such circumstances. Accordingly, this low-male sex ratio produced the strongest desire for lucrative careers in women who are least able to secure a mate."
     

    Where exactly did I “blame women”?

    You’ve been arguing all along against “hypergamy” and asserting that women have no bias against marrying less educated men and are marrying them in droves these days.

    But now you’re saying that women in fact aren’t getting married and are seeking lucrative careers because there’s a shortage of “marriageable” men who would bring home the equivalent of those lucrative careers.

    So which is it? You’re contradicting yourself.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    So which is it? You’re contradicting yourself.
     
    No, I'm not. You're lying, as always.

    The point is that when there is a shortage of men in absolute numbers, women are better represented in high-paying careers.

    When men are in short supply, they refuse to commit, and women are forced to assume they will be going it alone.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pere.12118
    , @Moses

    You’ve been arguing all along against “hypergamy” and asserting that women have no bias against marrying less educated men and are marrying them in droves these days.

     

    Hi Rosie!

    Would you mind sharing if you or your your husband have a higher:
    1) Educational attainment
    2) Career field
    3) Income

    I mean, I'm sure you're not one of those hypergamous women who married a man higher on the socioeconomic ladder. Amirite?

    The "shortage of men" thing is such bullsh*t. There is no shortage of men. There's a shortage of men who make more money / have higher prestige to satisfy women's hypergamy.

    I know several women like this. Advanced degrees, high income but lacking in the feminine arts. Any man they wanted was good enough to have better options than them. They never understood that, instead bitched about the "shortage of men." Now they are 40s, childless, unhappy wine aunts.

    The real shortage is of thin women with long hair who can cook. <--- Now that's a problem!

    , @Moses

    You’ve been arguing all along against “hypergamy” and asserting that women have no bias against marrying less educated men and are marrying them in droves these days.

     

    Hi Rosie!

    Would you mind sharing if you or your your husband have a higher:
    1) Educational attainment
    2) Career field
    3) Income

    I mean, I'm sure you're not one of those hypergamous women who married a man higher on the socioeconomic ladder. Amirite?

    The "shortage of men" thing is such bullsh*t. There is no shortage of men. There's a shortage of men who make more money / have higher prestige to satisfy women's hypergamy.
  187. @Rosie

    But think the girls are there on merit.
     
    They absolutely are there on merit. If they weren't, you would see them disproportionately flunking the bar exam, which they do not.

    Where is their published data on comparative bar passage rates? The ABA data is broken down by school and state.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    https://eddoctorinhouse.org/2014/08/01/is-there-a-gender-gap-in-performance-on-the-new-york-bar-exam/
    , @kaganovitch
    https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/documents/admissions/Examinations/Final-Bar-Exam-Report.pdf?ver=2018-11-15-110106-057

    pg. 26 indicates Rosie is right and Women score above 1290 as often or more often than Men. This is in California though. The Multistate Bar Exam on the other hand shows a 27 point advantage for Men on the non-essay portion.On the essay portion Women have a 10 point advantage.

    https://eddoctorinhouse.org/2014/08/01/is-there-a-gender-gap-in-performance-on-the-new-york-bar-exam/


    The evidence appears somewhat mixed and there is no glaring disparity that would justify concluding Women are getting a free ride.

    I see Rosie beat me to it....

  188. @anonn
    In reality, the right of an individual to guns was invented by 5 hard-right judicial activists, ALL of whom went an Ivy League law school: Harvard (Roberts, Scalia) or Yale (Thomas, Alito). (Kennedy went to both Harvard and Stanford).

    Since conservatives can't honestly win elections anymore, practically everything that the conservative movement has achieved in recent years has been achieved by 5 lawyers who went to Ivy League schools.

    Molon Labe.

    • Replies: @anonn
    I'm not pro gun control. As long as the police are heavily armed and constantly murdering poor black and poor white people, disarming the working class cannot be contemplated.

    The idea that the Ivy League lawyers in the federal courts are anti-gun is absurd; SCOTUS is run by a cabal of hard-right judicial activists and the only time they've ruled on the issue recently they expanded gun rights. I have no doubt that if Warren or another center-right Dem wins the election and tries to pass any meaningful gun control legislation it will lose 5-4 at the Court.
  189. @Nico

    So what?
     
    The “so what?” is that the country can train only so many physicians per year and if a significant proportion of those are not going to practice at all or going to practice only part-time, such a situation is not reflective of a desirable or sustainable resource allocation.

    You will always find outliers. You will always find exceptions to the trends (female full-time surgeons, male part-time generalists, etc.) When we are speaking of general trends such as the impact of the feminization of medical care delivery, we have to treat in aggregate wholes.

    The “so what?” is that the country can train only so many physicians per year and if a significant proportion of those are not going to practice at all or going to practice only part-time, such a situation is not reflective of a desirable or sustainable resource allocation.

    By all means, let’s not open any more medical schools so doctors can work normal hours. We need more consumer junk. GDP uber alles.

    • Replies: @anon
    By all means, let’s not open any more medical schools so doctors can work normal hours.

    Evading the point, as usual. There is a "return on investment" issue. Every med student who progresses to residency and final graduation represents a large investment: their own time and money, almost always their family money and time, plus the opportunity cost of their "seat" in med school, plus resources dedicated to them, etc.

    Those people who complete med school, who then elect to work only part time or even leave the field represent a negative ROI. They shift work from their own shoulders to others, making more work for "someone else". Women doctors are much more likely to do that for various reasons.

    Since medical school is a zero-sum situation with a finite number of student slots nationwide every year, it is in the interest of the larger society to get the best ROI possible. We could have more active doctors, but we'd have to accept more men and fewer women to get that, so...no. We tolerate this waste of money, time and resources as part of the society-wide catering to women's whims. Better to have permanent shortages of doctors than hurt some women's feelings.

    Our social priorities are heavily skewed towards women's whims. It's causing problems.
    , @Nico
    I said (emphasis added):

    The “so what?” is that the country can train only so many physicians per year and if a significant proportion of those are not going to practice at all or going to practice only part-time, such a situation is not reflective of a desirable or sustainable resource allocation.
     
    You said (emphasis added), specifically in response to what I said:

    By all means, let’s not open any more medical schools so doctors can work normal hours. We need more consumer junk. GDP uber alles.
     
    The juxtaposition suggests that you think zero to part-time hours are "normal" hours for physicians.

    Now, in fairness, I'm pretty sure that's actually not what you think. I think you're just so dense you don't have any idea what the hell you're saying. But either way, it's pretty pointless having a discussion with you.
  190. @Art Deco
    Where is their published data on comparative bar passage rates? The ABA data is broken down by school and state.
  191. @Anonymous
    Where exactly did I "blame women"?

    You've been arguing all along against "hypergamy" and asserting that women have no bias against marrying less educated men and are marrying them in droves these days.

    But now you're saying that women in fact aren't getting married and are seeking lucrative careers because there's a shortage of "marriageable" men who would bring home the equivalent of those lucrative careers.

    So which is it? You're contradicting yourself.

    So which is it? You’re contradicting yourself.

    No, I’m not. You’re lying, as always.

    The point is that when there is a shortage of men in absolute numbers, women are better represented in high-paying careers.

    When men are in short supply, they refuse to commit, and women are forced to assume they will be going it alone.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pere.12118

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    There is no shortage of men in absolute numbers. See the data from the last census. There are more men than women from birth until the 35 to 39 year old age cohort:

    https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf
  192. @Art Deco
    Where is their published data on comparative bar passage rates? The ABA data is broken down by school and state.

    https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/documents/admissions/Examinations/Final-Bar-Exam-Report.pdf?ver=2018-11-15-110106-057

    pg. 26 indicates Rosie is right and Women score above 1290 as often or more often than Men. This is in California though. The Multistate Bar Exam on the other hand shows a 27 point advantage for Men on the non-essay portion.On the essay portion Women have a 10 point advantage.

    https://eddoctorinhouse.org/2014/08/01/is-there-a-gender-gap-in-performance-on-the-new-york-bar-exam/

    The evidence appears somewhat mixed and there is no glaring disparity that would justify concluding Women are getting a free ride.

    I see Rosie beat me to it….

  193. @Rosie

    So which is it? You’re contradicting yourself.
     
    No, I'm not. You're lying, as always.

    The point is that when there is a shortage of men in absolute numbers, women are better represented in high-paying careers.

    When men are in short supply, they refuse to commit, and women are forced to assume they will be going it alone.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pere.12118

    There is no shortage of men in absolute numbers. See the data from the last census. There are more men than women from birth until the 35 to 39 year old age cohort:

    https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf

    • Replies: @Rosie

    There is no shortage of men in absolute numbers. See the data from the last census. There are more men than women from birth until the 35 to 39 year old age cohort:
     
    I wonder how many harassing lies you'd have to tell before you got kicked put of here.

    There are localized shortages of men that are indeed fueling women's career ambitions.
  194. @Jim Don Bob
    Molon Labe.

    I’m not pro gun control. As long as the police are heavily armed and constantly murdering poor black and poor white people, disarming the working class cannot be contemplated.

    The idea that the Ivy League lawyers in the federal courts are anti-gun is absurd; SCOTUS is run by a cabal of hard-right judicial activists and the only time they’ve ruled on the issue recently they expanded gun rights. I have no doubt that if Warren or another center-right Dem wins the election and tries to pass any meaningful gun control legislation it will lose 5-4 at the Court.

  195. anon[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    The “so what?” is that the country can train only so many physicians per year and if a significant proportion of those are not going to practice at all or going to practice only part-time, such a situation is not reflective of a desirable or sustainable resource allocation.
     
    By all means, let's not open any more medical schools so doctors can work normal hours. We need more consumer junk. GDP uber alles.

    By all means, let’s not open any more medical schools so doctors can work normal hours.

    Evading the point, as usual. There is a “return on investment” issue. Every med student who progresses to residency and final graduation represents a large investment: their own time and money, almost always their family money and time, plus the opportunity cost of their “seat” in med school, plus resources dedicated to them, etc.

    Those people who complete med school, who then elect to work only part time or even leave the field represent a negative ROI. They shift work from their own shoulders to others, making more work for “someone else”. Women doctors are much more likely to do that for various reasons.

    Since medical school is a zero-sum situation with a finite number of student slots nationwide every year, it is in the interest of the larger society to get the best ROI possible. We could have more active doctors, but we’d have to accept more men and fewer women to get that, so…no. We tolerate this waste of money, time and resources as part of the society-wide catering to women’s whims. Better to have permanent shortages of doctors than hurt some women’s feelings.

    Our social priorities are heavily skewed towards women’s whims. It’s causing problems.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob, HammerJack
    • Replies: @Rosie

    Since medical school is a zero-sum situation with a finite number of student slots nationwide every year, it is in the interest of the larger society to get the best ROI possible. We could have more active doctors, but we’d have to accept more men and fewer women to get that, so…no. We tolerate this waste of money, time and resources as part of the society-wide catering to women’s whims. Better to have permanent shortages of doctors than hurt some women’s feelings.
     
    You keep saying the same thing over and over again: economic efficiency is all that matters.

    "Women's whims" = our most basic human rights.

    When is someone going to do something about all these expensive prisons?
  196. Anonymous[113] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Every woman sitting in a med school chair is taking a place that might be used by a man who would work longer hours, more years, in something other than family / pediatrics. That’s opportunity cost.
     
    Here it is again.

    If women are ambitious careerists, that would be wrong. That we are not is also wrong and warrants limiting our options in life. Unz might as well be Forbes magazine with the constant obsession with the bottom line. GDP uber alles.

    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited. If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more. The more docs that mommy track, retire early or leave medicine the more they’ll have to expand.

    The real shortages are in rural practice and in a few specific research areas. That is not going to change.

    The AMA is able to maintain this because medicine is mostly regulated at the state legislature level. They need to control a dozen or less states and the others will toady along. State legislators are scared of doctors.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited. If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more.
     
    Yep, and if women got out of medicine altogether, we'd be replaced by immigrants anyway.
    , @anon
    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited.

    Because there is a limited number of clerkships for upper division medical students. Without a clerkship there is essentially zero chance for residency, therefore no way to become a doctor.

    If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more.

    Very unlikely.

    The more docs that mommy track, retire early or leave medicine the more they’ll have to expand.

    No. See above re: "clerkships".

    The real shortages are in rural practice and in a few specific research areas. That is not going to change.

    One way a doctor can get his or her student debt greatly reduced if not zeroed is to go into an unpopular practice, such as the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Some states will now do the same for new doctors willing to practice in rural areas for a specified period of time. These are problems that can be solved, at least partially, but in order to do we must have doctors who won't switch to half time after a few years of practice.
  197. @anon
    By all means, let’s not open any more medical schools so doctors can work normal hours.

    Evading the point, as usual. There is a "return on investment" issue. Every med student who progresses to residency and final graduation represents a large investment: their own time and money, almost always their family money and time, plus the opportunity cost of their "seat" in med school, plus resources dedicated to them, etc.

    Those people who complete med school, who then elect to work only part time or even leave the field represent a negative ROI. They shift work from their own shoulders to others, making more work for "someone else". Women doctors are much more likely to do that for various reasons.

    Since medical school is a zero-sum situation with a finite number of student slots nationwide every year, it is in the interest of the larger society to get the best ROI possible. We could have more active doctors, but we'd have to accept more men and fewer women to get that, so...no. We tolerate this waste of money, time and resources as part of the society-wide catering to women's whims. Better to have permanent shortages of doctors than hurt some women's feelings.

    Our social priorities are heavily skewed towards women's whims. It's causing problems.

    Since medical school is a zero-sum situation with a finite number of student slots nationwide every year, it is in the interest of the larger society to get the best ROI possible. We could have more active doctors, but we’d have to accept more men and fewer women to get that, so…no. We tolerate this waste of money, time and resources as part of the society-wide catering to women’s whims. Better to have permanent shortages of doctors than hurt some women’s feelings.

    You keep saying the same thing over and over again: economic efficiency is all that matters.

    “Women’s whims” = our most basic human rights.

    When is someone going to do something about all these expensive prisons?

    • Replies: @anon
    You keep saying the same thing over and over again: economic efficiency is all that matters.

    Oh yeah? Show me where I wrote that. You're just making things up inside your head now, lol!

    “Women’s whims” = our most basic human rights.

    Which basic rights are you referring to? The right to years of college at no cost? The right to ride the cock carousel? The right to free stuff because "has vagina"?

    Be specific.

    When is someone going to do something about all these expensive prisons?

    Non sequitur.

    , @Jonathan Mason

    When is someone going to do something about all these expensive prisons?
     
    Prisons are free at point of service, there is no insurance, copays, or deductibles and only a very small copay (usually $5 for medical care). If only universities could be run as efficiently.
  198. @Anonymous
    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited. If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more. The more docs that mommy track, retire early or leave medicine the more they’ll have to expand.

    The real shortages are in rural practice and in a few specific research areas. That is not going to change.

    The AMA is able to maintain this because medicine is mostly regulated at the state legislature level. They need to control a dozen or less states and the others will toady along. State legislators are scared of doctors.

    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited. If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more.

    Yep, and if women got out of medicine altogether, we’d be replaced by immigrants anyway.

    • Disagree: Rosie
  199. @Anonymous
    There is no shortage of men in absolute numbers. See the data from the last census. There are more men than women from birth until the 35 to 39 year old age cohort:

    https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf

    There is no shortage of men in absolute numbers. See the data from the last census. There are more men than women from birth until the 35 to 39 year old age cohort:

    I wonder how many harassing lies you’d have to tell before you got kicked put of here.

    There are localized shortages of men that are indeed fueling women’s career ambitions.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Huh? You said that there was a shortage of men in absolute numbers. I showed that this was untrue by pointing to the official US census, which shows that there's a surplus of men from birth until middle age.

    If it were simply local man shortages that drove women's careers, then there wouldn't be a greater number of career women overall, because there is no overall man shortage. There's an overall man surplus, as the census indicates.
  200. anon[398] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited. If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more. The more docs that mommy track, retire early or leave medicine the more they’ll have to expand.

    The real shortages are in rural practice and in a few specific research areas. That is not going to change.

    The AMA is able to maintain this because medicine is mostly regulated at the state legislature level. They need to control a dozen or less states and the others will toady along. State legislators are scared of doctors.

    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited.

    Because there is a limited number of clerkships for upper division medical students. Without a clerkship there is essentially zero chance for residency, therefore no way to become a doctor.

    If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more.

    Very unlikely.

    The more docs that mommy track, retire early or leave medicine the more they’ll have to expand.

    No. See above re: “clerkships”.

    The real shortages are in rural practice and in a few specific research areas. That is not going to change.

    One way a doctor can get his or her student debt greatly reduced if not zeroed is to go into an unpopular practice, such as the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Some states will now do the same for new doctors willing to practice in rural areas for a specified period of time. These are problems that can be solved, at least partially, but in order to do we must have doctors who won’t switch to half time after a few years of practice.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    No. See above re: “clerkships”.
     
    Who do you think you're fooling? You take things like this as immutable facts of nature, but women's rights you consider fair game for social engineering. GFY.
    , @Anonymous

    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited.

    Because there is a limited number of clerkships for upper division medical students. Without a clerkship there is essentially zero chance for residency, therefore no way to become a doctor.

    If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more.

    Very unlikely.

    The more docs that mommy track, retire early or leave medicine the more they’ll have to expand.

    No. See above re: “clerkships”.
     

    And who sets this number?

    The bottom line is that not enough med students wash out and not enough doctors quit for other pursuits or 'retire early". Navy SEALs have a >70% washout rate from those who start BUD/S to those who eventually get the trident. Med schools see 90% of admittes not only graduate but get and successfully complete a residency and get licensed. You have to wash more than that out to weed the people who test out well enough but prove to be doofuses, monsters or just misfits. THE SEAT IS NOT THAT FUCKING PRECIOUS!!!!

  201. @Rosie

    Since medical school is a zero-sum situation with a finite number of student slots nationwide every year, it is in the interest of the larger society to get the best ROI possible. We could have more active doctors, but we’d have to accept more men and fewer women to get that, so…no. We tolerate this waste of money, time and resources as part of the society-wide catering to women’s whims. Better to have permanent shortages of doctors than hurt some women’s feelings.
     
    You keep saying the same thing over and over again: economic efficiency is all that matters.

    "Women's whims" = our most basic human rights.

    When is someone going to do something about all these expensive prisons?

    You keep saying the same thing over and over again: economic efficiency is all that matters.

    Oh yeah? Show me where I wrote that. You’re just making things up inside your head now, lol!

    “Women’s whims” = our most basic human rights.

    Which basic rights are you referring to? The right to years of college at no cost? The right to ride the cock carousel? The right to free stuff because “has vagina”?

    Be specific.

    When is someone going to do something about all these expensive prisons?

    Non sequitur.

  202. @Whiskey
    Male provision is irrelevant. Women have their own resources. Even Suck and Gates had to scrap for wives who visibly hate touching them. High iq is repulsive to women, unless married to charisma and dominance. And risk taking.

    Women have their own resources. No need to compromise. A sexy low is thug beats a PhD every time.

    Women have their own resources. No need to compromise. A sexy low is thug beats a PhD every time.

    Until a woman wants to get pregnant.

  203. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    There is no shortage of men in absolute numbers. See the data from the last census. There are more men than women from birth until the 35 to 39 year old age cohort:
     
    I wonder how many harassing lies you'd have to tell before you got kicked put of here.

    There are localized shortages of men that are indeed fueling women's career ambitions.

    Huh? You said that there was a shortage of men in absolute numbers. I showed that this was untrue by pointing to the official US census, which shows that there’s a surplus of men from birth until middle age.

    If it were simply local man shortages that drove women’s careers, then there wouldn’t be a greater number of career women overall, because there is no overall man shortage. There’s an overall man surplus, as the census indicates.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    If it were simply local man shortages that drove women’s careers, then there wouldn’t be a greater number of career women overall, because there is no overall man shortage. There’s an overall man surplus, as the census indicates.
     
    Liar, liar, pants on fire.

    The point is that localized shortages of men correlate with a higher representation of women in high-paid careers.
  204. @Rosie

    Since medical school is a zero-sum situation with a finite number of student slots nationwide every year, it is in the interest of the larger society to get the best ROI possible. We could have more active doctors, but we’d have to accept more men and fewer women to get that, so…no. We tolerate this waste of money, time and resources as part of the society-wide catering to women’s whims. Better to have permanent shortages of doctors than hurt some women’s feelings.
     
    You keep saying the same thing over and over again: economic efficiency is all that matters.

    "Women's whims" = our most basic human rights.

    When is someone going to do something about all these expensive prisons?

    When is someone going to do something about all these expensive prisons?

    Prisons are free at point of service, there is no insurance, copays, or deductibles and only a very small copay (usually $5 for medical care). If only universities could be run as efficiently.

  205. @Anonymous
    Huh? You said that there was a shortage of men in absolute numbers. I showed that this was untrue by pointing to the official US census, which shows that there's a surplus of men from birth until middle age.

    If it were simply local man shortages that drove women's careers, then there wouldn't be a greater number of career women overall, because there is no overall man shortage. There's an overall man surplus, as the census indicates.

    If it were simply local man shortages that drove women’s careers, then there wouldn’t be a greater number of career women overall, because there is no overall man shortage. There’s an overall man surplus, as the census indicates.

    Liar, liar, pants on fire.

    The point is that localized shortages of men correlate with a higher representation of women in high-paid careers.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Women now outnumber men in college, law school, med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. So this can't be due to a man shortage like you assert.
    , @Art Deco
    There are no 'localized shortages of men'.
  206. @anon
    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited.

    Because there is a limited number of clerkships for upper division medical students. Without a clerkship there is essentially zero chance for residency, therefore no way to become a doctor.

    If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more.

    Very unlikely.

    The more docs that mommy track, retire early or leave medicine the more they’ll have to expand.

    No. See above re: "clerkships".

    The real shortages are in rural practice and in a few specific research areas. That is not going to change.

    One way a doctor can get his or her student debt greatly reduced if not zeroed is to go into an unpopular practice, such as the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Some states will now do the same for new doctors willing to practice in rural areas for a specified period of time. These are problems that can be solved, at least partially, but in order to do we must have doctors who won't switch to half time after a few years of practice.

    No. See above re: “clerkships”.

    Who do you think you’re fooling? You take things like this as immutable facts of nature, but women’s rights you consider fair game for social engineering. GFY.

  207. @Rosie

    If it were simply local man shortages that drove women’s careers, then there wouldn’t be a greater number of career women overall, because there is no overall man shortage. There’s an overall man surplus, as the census indicates.
     
    Liar, liar, pants on fire.

    The point is that localized shortages of men correlate with a higher representation of women in high-paid careers.

    Women now outnumber men in college, law school, med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. So this can’t be due to a man shortage like you assert.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Women now outnumber men in college, law school, med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. So this can’t be due to a man shortage like you assert.
     
    This makes literally no sense whatsoever, but then that is typical for you. You obfuscate in order to hoodwink and frustrate.
  208. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited.

    Because there is a limited number of clerkships for upper division medical students. Without a clerkship there is essentially zero chance for residency, therefore no way to become a doctor.

    If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more.

    Very unlikely.

    The more docs that mommy track, retire early or leave medicine the more they’ll have to expand.

    No. See above re: "clerkships".

    The real shortages are in rural practice and in a few specific research areas. That is not going to change.

    One way a doctor can get his or her student debt greatly reduced if not zeroed is to go into an unpopular practice, such as the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Some states will now do the same for new doctors willing to practice in rural areas for a specified period of time. These are problems that can be solved, at least partially, but in order to do we must have doctors who won't switch to half time after a few years of practice.

    Med school slots are precious only because the numbers are artificially limited.

    Because there is a limited number of clerkships for upper division medical students. Without a clerkship there is essentially zero chance for residency, therefore no way to become a doctor.

    If women quit applying and it was all men they’d just throttle it back some more.

    Very unlikely.

    The more docs that mommy track, retire early or leave medicine the more they’ll have to expand.

    No. See above re: “clerkships”.

    And who sets this number?

    The bottom line is that not enough med students wash out and not enough doctors quit for other pursuits or ‘retire early”. Navy SEALs have a >70% washout rate from those who start BUD/S to those who eventually get the trident. Med schools see 90% of admittes not only graduate but get and successfully complete a residency and get licensed. You have to wash more than that out to weed the people who test out well enough but prove to be doofuses, monsters or just misfits. THE SEAT IS NOT THAT FUCKING PRECIOUS!!!!

  209. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    I would say that if we want to get a better social ROI on doctor education, we first should drop the idiotic requirement for a four year bachelor’s degree before med school, and make it a lot easier for Americans to go overseas to genuinely competent foreign med schools and residencies and after testing come back here to practice.

    Instead, make med school applicants have some actual health care experience-let them become paramedics, EMTs, whatever first and work a couple of years. Some will have four, five or six year degrees beforehand, that’s OK. but it shouldn’t be mandatory. but if you tke in 22 year olds who are coming directly from college direct from high school, accept the reality that they do not really know what they want in life, and a certain number will decide that this medicine thing is not what they should have done. We want those people to find out what they really want and do that.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    NB, post-baccalaureate programs to prepare aspirants for medical school typically run one or two years. I've known people who went through them. One was an accountant looking for a career change (who followed an 18 month program in 1990-91) and another had whiled away his time as an undergraduate studying music (who enrolled in a two year program to accumulate pre-med credits in 2001). Two years of preparation, heavy on biology classes, should suffice for medical school aspirants. Same deal for law school.
  210. @Anonymous
    Women now outnumber men in college, law school, med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. So this can't be due to a man shortage like you assert.

    Women now outnumber men in college, law school, med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. So this can’t be due to a man shortage like you assert.

    This makes literally no sense whatsoever, but then that is typical for you. You obfuscate in order to hoodwink and frustrate.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Why doesn't it make sense?

    You claimed that there was a man shortage, and that this shortage is what drives women to seek careers.

    I showed that the official US census shows that there is no man shortage overall, but rather a male surplus until middle age.

    You then claimed that local man shortages are what drove women to seek careers.

    I then pointed out that women now outnumber men in college, law school, and med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. Therefore the career seeking by women can't be attributed to a man shortage.
  211. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Women now outnumber men in college, law school, med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. So this can’t be due to a man shortage like you assert.
     
    This makes literally no sense whatsoever, but then that is typical for you. You obfuscate in order to hoodwink and frustrate.

    Why doesn’t it make sense?

    You claimed that there was a man shortage, and that this shortage is what drives women to seek careers.

    I showed that the official US census shows that there is no man shortage overall, but rather a male surplus until middle age.

    You then claimed that local man shortages are what drove women to seek careers.

    I then pointed out that women now outnumber men in college, law school, and med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. Therefore the career seeking by women can’t be attributed to a man shortage.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    I then pointed out that women now outnumber men in college, law school, and med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. Therefore the career seeking by women can’t be attributed to a man shortage.

     

    What part of localized do you not understand?

    None, I expect. You are playing dumb for the sole purpose of harassing me, as usual.
  212. @Anonymous
    I would say that if we want to get a better social ROI on doctor education, we first should drop the idiotic requirement for a four year bachelor's degree before med school, and make it a lot easier for Americans to go overseas to genuinely competent foreign med schools and residencies and after testing come back here to practice.

    Instead, make med school applicants have some actual health care experience-let them become paramedics, EMTs, whatever first and work a couple of years. Some will have four, five or six year degrees beforehand, that's OK. but it shouldn't be mandatory. but if you tke in 22 year olds who are coming directly from college direct from high school, accept the reality that they do not really know what they want in life, and a certain number will decide that this medicine thing is not what they should have done. We want those people to find out what they really want and do that.

    NB, post-baccalaureate programs to prepare aspirants for medical school typically run one or two years. I’ve known people who went through them. One was an accountant looking for a career change (who followed an 18 month program in 1990-91) and another had whiled away his time as an undergraduate studying music (who enrolled in a two year program to accumulate pre-med credits in 2001). Two years of preparation, heavy on biology classes, should suffice for medical school aspirants. Same deal for law school.

  213. @Rosie

    If it were simply local man shortages that drove women’s careers, then there wouldn’t be a greater number of career women overall, because there is no overall man shortage. There’s an overall man surplus, as the census indicates.
     
    Liar, liar, pants on fire.

    The point is that localized shortages of men correlate with a higher representation of women in high-paid careers.

    There are no ‘localized shortages of men’.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    There are no ‘localized shortages of men’.
     
    False.

    https://www.states101.com/articles/gender-ratios-in-washington-dc
  214. @Art Deco
    There are no 'localized shortages of men'.

    There are no ‘localized shortages of men’.

    False.

    https://www.states101.com/articles/gender-ratios-in-washington-dc

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    The District of Columbia accounts for 1/7th of the population in the dense settlement around Washington.
  215. @Anonymous
    Why doesn't it make sense?

    You claimed that there was a man shortage, and that this shortage is what drives women to seek careers.

    I showed that the official US census shows that there is no man shortage overall, but rather a male surplus until middle age.

    You then claimed that local man shortages are what drove women to seek careers.

    I then pointed out that women now outnumber men in college, law school, and med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. Therefore the career seeking by women can't be attributed to a man shortage.

    I then pointed out that women now outnumber men in college, law school, and med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. Therefore the career seeking by women can’t be attributed to a man shortage.

    What part of localized do you not understand?

    None, I expect. You are playing dumb for the sole purpose of harassing me, as usual.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The stats I cited were for the US overall. There is a surplus, not a shortage, of men in the US overall until middle age, and women outnumber men in undergrad and professional schools such as law and med schools, overall.

    Your argument might make sense if, say, Idaho had a man shortage, and Idaho women outnumbered Idaho men in college and grad school, while since overall there is no man shortage in the US, women did not outnumber men in college and grad school in the US in general. But women outnumber men despite there being no man shortage overall in the US.
  216. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I then pointed out that women now outnumber men in college, law school, and med school, despite there being no man shortage overall. Therefore the career seeking by women can’t be attributed to a man shortage.

     

    What part of localized do you not understand?

    None, I expect. You are playing dumb for the sole purpose of harassing me, as usual.

    The stats I cited were for the US overall. There is a surplus, not a shortage, of men in the US overall until middle age, and women outnumber men in undergrad and professional schools such as law and med schools, overall.

    Your argument might make sense if, say, Idaho had a man shortage, and Idaho women outnumbered Idaho men in college and grad school, while since overall there is no man shortage in the US, women did not outnumber men in college and grad school in the US in general. But women outnumber men despite there being no man shortage overall in the US.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Your argument might make sense if, say, Idaho had a man shortage, and Idaho women outnumbered Idaho men in college and grad school, while since overall there is no man shortage in the US, women did not outnumber men in college and grad school in the US in general. But women outnumber men despite there being no man shortage overall in the US.
     
    Your ridiculous arguments aren't nearly worth the bother of responding to them, but here goes anyway.

    This is a non sequitur. The fact that women outnumber men in college has nothing to do with whether women seek more lucrative careers when men are hard to find.

    Men don't necessarily have to go to college to make a good living, whereas almost all skilled labor that women are interested in requires a college degree. Women aren't interested in the skilled trades. Other than hair, a self-supporting wage for women almost always means college.
  217. @Rosie

    There are no ‘localized shortages of men’.
     
    False.

    https://www.states101.com/articles/gender-ratios-in-washington-dc

    The District of Columbia accounts for 1/7th of the population in the dense settlement around Washington.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    The District of Columbia accounts for 1/7th of the population in the dense settlement around Washington.
     
    Even if true, that doesn't change the fact that there is a shortage of men in urban centers throughout the country.

    Remember, you also have to consider the fact that many more men than women are:

    In prison.
    On drugs.
    Homosexual.

    A relatively small shortage of men in absolute numbers can tip the balance of power quite a bit, leading to men being unwilling to commit, leading to an even greater shortage of men who are willing to marry.
  218. @Anonymous
    The stats I cited were for the US overall. There is a surplus, not a shortage, of men in the US overall until middle age, and women outnumber men in undergrad and professional schools such as law and med schools, overall.

    Your argument might make sense if, say, Idaho had a man shortage, and Idaho women outnumbered Idaho men in college and grad school, while since overall there is no man shortage in the US, women did not outnumber men in college and grad school in the US in general. But women outnumber men despite there being no man shortage overall in the US.

    Your argument might make sense if, say, Idaho had a man shortage, and Idaho women outnumbered Idaho men in college and grad school, while since overall there is no man shortage in the US, women did not outnumber men in college and grad school in the US in general. But women outnumber men despite there being no man shortage overall in the US.

    Your ridiculous arguments aren’t nearly worth the bother of responding to them, but here goes anyway.

    This is a non sequitur. The fact that women outnumber men in college has nothing to do with whether women seek more lucrative careers when men are hard to find.

    Men don’t necessarily have to go to college to make a good living, whereas almost all skilled labor that women are interested in requires a college degree. Women aren’t interested in the skilled trades. Other than hair, a self-supporting wage for women almost always means college.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    a self-supporting wage for women almost always means college.
     
    Precisely. And you asserted that a shortage of men fuels women's career ambitions. Women's career ambitions require college. Women's career ambitions are reflected in the fact that women now outnumber men in college, law school, and med school. At the same, there is no shortage of men in society, rather there is a surplus of men. Therefore, a shortage of men does not fuel women's career ambitions, like you originally asserted.
  219. @Art Deco
    The District of Columbia accounts for 1/7th of the population in the dense settlement around Washington.

    The District of Columbia accounts for 1/7th of the population in the dense settlement around Washington.

    Even if true, that doesn’t change the fact that there is a shortage of men in urban centers throughout the country.

    Remember, you also have to consider the fact that many more men than women are:

    In prison.
    On drugs.
    Homosexual.

    A relatively small shortage of men in absolute numbers can tip the balance of power quite a bit, leading to men being unwilling to commit, leading to an even greater shortage of men who are willing to marry.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    https://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/solocities_gap1.aspx
    , @Art Deco
    Remember, you also have to consider the fact that many more men than women are:

    FTR, if you're looking at the population of those between their 20th and 40th birthday, the number of men in 2017 exceeded the number of women by 1.012. The share of men given to homosexuality to a greater or lesser degree exceeds that of women so given by sums amounting to about 2% of the male population, or about 1.08 million in 2017 (some such men are marriageable, some not). The number of male prison inmates between the ages of 20 and 40 exceeds the number of female inmates by about 940,000. The mavens at HHS contend that there are 6 million people in this country as we speak who have a troublesome problem with street drugs. The excess of men over women would be about 2 million. If their age distribution is similar to that of the prison population, that would mean 1.5 million between the ages of 20 and 40. That sums to a deficit of 2.5 million men. The female population between the age of 20 and 40 is about 43 million, so the deficit is a shade under 6%. I'm not aware of any data which would suggest that deficit is any larger than it has been typically over the last century.


    A relatively small shortage of men in absolute numbers can tip the balance of power quite a bit, leading to men being unwilling to commit, leading to an even greater shortage of men who are willing to marry.

    I thought it was the labor market which was under discussion. No clue what you're on about now. Again, I'm not seeing how we're in a novel situation due to raw demography. In the last two generations, we've moved into a novel situation culturally. Unwilling to commit? Two thirds of the plaintiffs in divorce suits are female, and in marriages with children, the share is somewhat higher, around 73%. That, sister, is what an unwillingness to commit looks like.
  220. @Rosie

    The District of Columbia accounts for 1/7th of the population in the dense settlement around Washington.
     
    Even if true, that doesn't change the fact that there is a shortage of men in urban centers throughout the country.

    Remember, you also have to consider the fact that many more men than women are:

    In prison.
    On drugs.
    Homosexual.

    A relatively small shortage of men in absolute numbers can tip the balance of power quite a bit, leading to men being unwilling to commit, leading to an even greater shortage of men who are willing to marry.
  221. @Rosie

    The District of Columbia accounts for 1/7th of the population in the dense settlement around Washington.
     
    Even if true, that doesn't change the fact that there is a shortage of men in urban centers throughout the country.

    Remember, you also have to consider the fact that many more men than women are:

    In prison.
    On drugs.
    Homosexual.

    A relatively small shortage of men in absolute numbers can tip the balance of power quite a bit, leading to men being unwilling to commit, leading to an even greater shortage of men who are willing to marry.

    Remember, you also have to consider the fact that many more men than women are:

    FTR, if you’re looking at the population of those between their 20th and 40th birthday, the number of men in 2017 exceeded the number of women by 1.012. The share of men given to homosexuality to a greater or lesser degree exceeds that of women so given by sums amounting to about 2% of the male population, or about 1.08 million in 2017 (some such men are marriageable, some not). The number of male prison inmates between the ages of 20 and 40 exceeds the number of female inmates by about 940,000. The mavens at HHS contend that there are 6 million people in this country as we speak who have a troublesome problem with street drugs. The excess of men over women would be about 2 million. If their age distribution is similar to that of the prison population, that would mean 1.5 million between the ages of 20 and 40. That sums to a deficit of 2.5 million men. The female population between the age of 20 and 40 is about 43 million, so the deficit is a shade under 6%. I’m not aware of any data which would suggest that deficit is any larger than it has been typically over the last century.

    A relatively small shortage of men in absolute numbers can tip the balance of power quite a bit, leading to men being unwilling to commit, leading to an even greater shortage of men who are willing to marry.

    I thought it was the labor market which was under discussion. No clue what you’re on about now. Again, I’m not seeing how we’re in a novel situation due to raw demography. In the last two generations, we’ve moved into a novel situation culturally. Unwilling to commit? Two thirds of the plaintiffs in divorce suits are female, and in marriages with children, the share is somewhat higher, around 73%. That, sister, is what an unwillingness to commit looks like.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Two thirds of the plaintiffs in divorce suits are female, and in marriages with children, the share is somewhat higher, around 73%. That, sister, is what an unwillingness to commit looks like.
     
    If a man cheats and his wife files for divorce, who is refusing to commit, the husband or the wife. Sometimes I think people around here define "commit" as "being willing to stay married," though you may treat your spouse like garbage.

    Also, what difference does it make whether we are in a novel situation or not? (FWIW, I think we are, because of mass urbanization.)
  222. @Art Deco
    Remember, you also have to consider the fact that many more men than women are:

    FTR, if you're looking at the population of those between their 20th and 40th birthday, the number of men in 2017 exceeded the number of women by 1.012. The share of men given to homosexuality to a greater or lesser degree exceeds that of women so given by sums amounting to about 2% of the male population, or about 1.08 million in 2017 (some such men are marriageable, some not). The number of male prison inmates between the ages of 20 and 40 exceeds the number of female inmates by about 940,000. The mavens at HHS contend that there are 6 million people in this country as we speak who have a troublesome problem with street drugs. The excess of men over women would be about 2 million. If their age distribution is similar to that of the prison population, that would mean 1.5 million between the ages of 20 and 40. That sums to a deficit of 2.5 million men. The female population between the age of 20 and 40 is about 43 million, so the deficit is a shade under 6%. I'm not aware of any data which would suggest that deficit is any larger than it has been typically over the last century.


    A relatively small shortage of men in absolute numbers can tip the balance of power quite a bit, leading to men being unwilling to commit, leading to an even greater shortage of men who are willing to marry.

    I thought it was the labor market which was under discussion. No clue what you're on about now. Again, I'm not seeing how we're in a novel situation due to raw demography. In the last two generations, we've moved into a novel situation culturally. Unwilling to commit? Two thirds of the plaintiffs in divorce suits are female, and in marriages with children, the share is somewhat higher, around 73%. That, sister, is what an unwillingness to commit looks like.

    Two thirds of the plaintiffs in divorce suits are female, and in marriages with children, the share is somewhat higher, around 73%. That, sister, is what an unwillingness to commit looks like.

    If a man cheats and his wife files for divorce, who is refusing to commit, the husband or the wife. Sometimes I think people around here define “commit” as “being willing to stay married,” though you may treat your spouse like garbage.

    Also, what difference does it make whether we are in a novel situation or not? (FWIW, I think we are, because of mass urbanization.)

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Most people who file don't have what my parents' contemporaries would have considered 'grounds', so your complaint is largely irrelevant.
  223. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Your argument might make sense if, say, Idaho had a man shortage, and Idaho women outnumbered Idaho men in college and grad school, while since overall there is no man shortage in the US, women did not outnumber men in college and grad school in the US in general. But women outnumber men despite there being no man shortage overall in the US.
     
    Your ridiculous arguments aren't nearly worth the bother of responding to them, but here goes anyway.

    This is a non sequitur. The fact that women outnumber men in college has nothing to do with whether women seek more lucrative careers when men are hard to find.

    Men don't necessarily have to go to college to make a good living, whereas almost all skilled labor that women are interested in requires a college degree. Women aren't interested in the skilled trades. Other than hair, a self-supporting wage for women almost always means college.

    a self-supporting wage for women almost always means college.

    Precisely. And you asserted that a shortage of men fuels women’s career ambitions. Women’s career ambitions require college. Women’s career ambitions are reflected in the fact that women now outnumber men in college, law school, and med school. At the same, there is no shortage of men in society, rather there is a surplus of men. Therefore, a shortage of men does not fuel women’s career ambitions, like you originally asserted.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    there is no shortage of men in society
     
    You are a snake. There are localized shortages of men as I have repeatedly stated.

    The evidence is in a link I posted above. Not that that means anything to you, Liar.

    You are not entitled to an opinion about women's lives, anyway.
  224. @Anonymous

    a self-supporting wage for women almost always means college.
     
    Precisely. And you asserted that a shortage of men fuels women's career ambitions. Women's career ambitions require college. Women's career ambitions are reflected in the fact that women now outnumber men in college, law school, and med school. At the same, there is no shortage of men in society, rather there is a surplus of men. Therefore, a shortage of men does not fuel women's career ambitions, like you originally asserted.

    there is no shortage of men in society

    You are a snake. There are localized shortages of men as I have repeatedly stated.

    The evidence is in a link I posted above. Not that that means anything to you, Liar.

    You are not entitled to an opinion about women’s lives, anyway.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    You are not entitled to an opinion about women’s lives, anyway.

    This is a nonsense statement.
    , @Anonymous
    There is no shortage at the level of society, and women outnumber men in college and postgrad professional education such as med and law school, at the level of society.
  225. @Rosie

    Two thirds of the plaintiffs in divorce suits are female, and in marriages with children, the share is somewhat higher, around 73%. That, sister, is what an unwillingness to commit looks like.
     
    If a man cheats and his wife files for divorce, who is refusing to commit, the husband or the wife. Sometimes I think people around here define "commit" as "being willing to stay married," though you may treat your spouse like garbage.

    Also, what difference does it make whether we are in a novel situation or not? (FWIW, I think we are, because of mass urbanization.)

    Most people who file don’t have what my parents’ contemporaries would have considered ‘grounds’, so your complaint is largely irrelevant.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Most people who file don’t have what my parents’ contemporaries would have considered ‘grounds’, so your complaint is largely irrelevant.
     
    Do you have any evidence for this assertion?
  226. @Rosie

    there is no shortage of men in society
     
    You are a snake. There are localized shortages of men as I have repeatedly stated.

    The evidence is in a link I posted above. Not that that means anything to you, Liar.

    You are not entitled to an opinion about women's lives, anyway.

    You are not entitled to an opinion about women’s lives, anyway.

    This is a nonsense statement.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    This is a nonsense statement.
     
    If you want to see nonsense, have a look at Anon375's gibberish. All he does is pretend not to understand plain English for the purpose of harassing me.
  227. @Rosie

    there is no shortage of men in society
     
    You are a snake. There are localized shortages of men as I have repeatedly stated.

    The evidence is in a link I posted above. Not that that means anything to you, Liar.

    You are not entitled to an opinion about women's lives, anyway.

    There is no shortage at the level of society, and women outnumber men in college and postgrad professional education such as med and law school, at the level of society.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    There is no shortage at the level of society, and women outnumber men in college and postgrad professional education such as med and law school, at the level of society.
     
    Totally irrelevant.
  228. @Realist

    One of the less remarked-upon gender gaps is in college attendance: Young men have fallen far behind young women. Males now make up only 43 percent of college students despite continuing to earn slightly higher average scores on college admission tests.
     
    As I have said before...it's not quantity...it's quality. Of the 57% females, how many study subjects of value? Also for consideration is the fact that colleges have an overabundance of unqualified 'students', both male and female.

    Every engineering school I know of seems to have a target to admit 50% women to its freshman class. And in every case that means the standard for the women is much lower than for the men. It also means the curriculum has to be less g-loaded (no wonder there’s so much project work now) because most of those women would have flunked vs. the old standards.

    • Replies: @Realist

    Every engineering school I know of seems to have a target to admit 50% women to its freshman class.
     
    That is a sad situation. One more nail in the coffin of the US...at this point it is probably not able to be resuscitated. Perhaps some engineering professors will flunk out the lower standard students.
  229. @artichoke
    Every engineering school I know of seems to have a target to admit 50% women to its freshman class. And in every case that means the standard for the women is much lower than for the men. It also means the curriculum has to be less g-loaded (no wonder there's so much project work now) because most of those women would have flunked vs. the old standards.

    Every engineering school I know of seems to have a target to admit 50% women to its freshman class.

    That is a sad situation. One more nail in the coffin of the US…at this point it is probably not able to be resuscitated. Perhaps some engineering professors will flunk out the lower standard students.

  230. @Anonymous
    There is no shortage at the level of society, and women outnumber men in college and postgrad professional education such as med and law school, at the level of society.

    There is no shortage at the level of society, and women outnumber men in college and postgrad professional education such as med and law school, at the level of society.

    Totally irrelevant.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Your entire thesis is that a shortage of men is responsible for women outnumbering men in career tracks, so of course it's relevant.

    There's no shortage of men.
  231. @Art Deco
    You are not entitled to an opinion about women’s lives, anyway.

    This is a nonsense statement.

    This is a nonsense statement.

    If you want to see nonsense, have a look at Anon375’s gibberish. All he does is pretend not to understand plain English for the purpose of harassing me.

  232. @Art Deco
    Most people who file don't have what my parents' contemporaries would have considered 'grounds', so your complaint is largely irrelevant.

    Most people who file don’t have what my parents’ contemporaries would have considered ‘grounds’, so your complaint is largely irrelevant.

    Do you have any evidence for this assertion?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    There is ample sociological research into the stated reasons for filing, as well as observational studies with regression analyses which do not incorporate interviews. Alcoholism, domestic violence, and adultery don't account for 1/3 of the reasons cited in interviews.
  233. @Rosie

    Most people who file don’t have what my parents’ contemporaries would have considered ‘grounds’, so your complaint is largely irrelevant.
     
    Do you have any evidence for this assertion?

    There is ample sociological research into the stated reasons for filing, as well as observational studies with regression analyses which do not incorporate interviews. Alcoholism, domestic violence, and adultery don’t account for 1/3 of the reasons cited in interviews.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    There is ample sociological research into the stated reasons for filing
     
    Be a mensch and post some.
  234. @Art Deco
    There is ample sociological research into the stated reasons for filing, as well as observational studies with regression analyses which do not incorporate interviews. Alcoholism, domestic violence, and adultery don't account for 1/3 of the reasons cited in interviews.

    There is ample sociological research into the stated reasons for filing

    Be a mensch and post some.

  235. @Nico

    So what?
     
    The “so what?” is that the country can train only so many physicians per year and if a significant proportion of those are not going to practice at all or going to practice only part-time, such a situation is not reflective of a desirable or sustainable resource allocation.

    You will always find outliers. You will always find exceptions to the trends (female full-time surgeons, male part-time generalists, etc.) When we are speaking of general trends such as the impact of the feminization of medical care delivery, we have to treat in aggregate wholes.

    Advantage: Nico

  236. @Anonymous
    Where exactly did I "blame women"?

    You've been arguing all along against "hypergamy" and asserting that women have no bias against marrying less educated men and are marrying them in droves these days.

    But now you're saying that women in fact aren't getting married and are seeking lucrative careers because there's a shortage of "marriageable" men who would bring home the equivalent of those lucrative careers.

    So which is it? You're contradicting yourself.

    You’ve been arguing all along against “hypergamy” and asserting that women have no bias against marrying less educated men and are marrying them in droves these days.

    Hi Rosie!

    Would you mind sharing if you or your your husband have a higher:
    1) Educational attainment
    2) Career field
    3) Income

    I mean, I’m sure you’re not one of those hypergamous women who married a man higher on the socioeconomic ladder. Amirite?

    The “shortage of men” thing is such bullsh*t. There is no shortage of men. There’s a shortage of men who make more money / have higher prestige to satisfy women’s hypergamy.

    I know several women like this. Advanced degrees, high income but lacking in the feminine arts. Any man they wanted was good enough to have better options than them. They never understood that, instead bitched about the “shortage of men.” Now they are 40s, childless, unhappy wine aunts.

    The real shortage is of thin women with long hair who can cook. <— Now that's a problem!

    • Replies: @Nico

    The real shortage is of thin women with long hair who can cook. <— Now that's a problem!
     
    *BIM*

    Feminists who screamed that men need to learn to cook and keep house may not have realized they were automating away one aspect of their employability on the mating market. (Same with women who support gay marriage, BTW.)
  237. @Anonymous
    Where exactly did I "blame women"?

    You've been arguing all along against "hypergamy" and asserting that women have no bias against marrying less educated men and are marrying them in droves these days.

    But now you're saying that women in fact aren't getting married and are seeking lucrative careers because there's a shortage of "marriageable" men who would bring home the equivalent of those lucrative careers.

    So which is it? You're contradicting yourself.

    You’ve been arguing all along against “hypergamy” and asserting that women have no bias against marrying less educated men and are marrying them in droves these days.

    Hi Rosie!

    Would you mind sharing if you or your your husband have a higher:
    1) Educational attainment
    2) Career field
    3) Income

    I mean, I’m sure you’re not one of those hypergamous women who married a man higher on the socioeconomic ladder. Amirite?

    The “shortage of men” thing is such bullsh*t. There is no shortage of men. There’s a shortage of men who make more money / have higher prestige to satisfy women’s hypergamy.

  238. @Rosie

    There is no shortage at the level of society, and women outnumber men in college and postgrad professional education such as med and law school, at the level of society.
     
    Totally irrelevant.

    Your entire thesis is that a shortage of men is responsible for women outnumbering men in career tracks, so of course it’s relevant.

    There’s no shortage of men.

  239. @Rosie

    The “so what?” is that the country can train only so many physicians per year and if a significant proportion of those are not going to practice at all or going to practice only part-time, such a situation is not reflective of a desirable or sustainable resource allocation.
     
    By all means, let's not open any more medical schools so doctors can work normal hours. We need more consumer junk. GDP uber alles.

    I said (emphasis added):

    The “so what?” is that the country can train only so many physicians per year and if a significant proportion of those are not going to practice at all or going to practice only part-time, such a situation is not reflective of a desirable or sustainable resource allocation.

    You said (emphasis added), specifically in response to what I said:

    By all means, let’s not open any more medical schools so doctors can work normal hours. We need more consumer junk. GDP uber alles.

    The juxtaposition suggests that you think zero to part-time hours are “normal” hours for physicians.

    Now, in fairness, I’m pretty sure that’s actually not what you think. I think you’re just so dense you don’t have any idea what the hell you’re saying. But either way, it’s pretty pointless having a discussion with you.

  240. @Moses

    You’ve been arguing all along against “hypergamy” and asserting that women have no bias against marrying less educated men and are marrying them in droves these days.

     

    Hi Rosie!

    Would you mind sharing if you or your your husband have a higher:
    1) Educational attainment
    2) Career field
    3) Income

    I mean, I'm sure you're not one of those hypergamous women who married a man higher on the socioeconomic ladder. Amirite?

    The "shortage of men" thing is such bullsh*t. There is no shortage of men. There's a shortage of men who make more money / have higher prestige to satisfy women's hypergamy.

    I know several women like this. Advanced degrees, high income but lacking in the feminine arts. Any man they wanted was good enough to have better options than them. They never understood that, instead bitched about the "shortage of men." Now they are 40s, childless, unhappy wine aunts.

    The real shortage is of thin women with long hair who can cook. <--- Now that's a problem!

    The real shortage is of thin women with long hair who can cook. <— Now that's a problem!

    *BIM*

    Feminists who screamed that men need to learn to cook and keep house may not have realized they were automating away one aspect of their employability on the mating market. (Same with women who support gay marriage, BTW.)

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