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Rebecca Hall is a pretty actress you’ve probably seen in movies such as Ben Affleck’s The Town.

Her father was Sir Peter Hall, the titanic English stage and opera director who helmed the first English-language production of Waiting for Godot and founded the Royal Shakespeare Company.

Her mother is American soprano Maria Ewing. Ewing’s most famous role was doing the dance of the seven veils in Richard Strauss’s opera Salome while removing all seven veils.

Hall looks like a white woman, but her mother is obviously part black.

But, apparently, nobody seemed to mention to Hall that her mother was part black. From the New York Times:

The Secret Toll of Racial Ambiguity

Rebecca Hall’s new film adaptation of the 1929 novel “Passing” has cracked open a public conversation about colorism and privilege.

By Alexandra Kleeman
Oct. 20, 2021

… Raised in England within the elite circles of classical theater, Hall, who is 39, had her first introduction to the concept of racial “passing” in the pages of Larsen’s novel. “I was spending time in America, and I knew that there had been vague, but I mean really vague, talk about my mother’s ethnicity,” Hall explained over the phone this spring. … “Sometimes she would intimate that maybe there was African American ancestry, or sometimes she would intimate that there was Indigenous ancestry. But she didn’t really know; it wasn’t available to her.”

… After her parents divorced in 1990, Hall lived for many years with her mother in a manor in the English countryside, where she remembers rooms filled with the sound of jazz on vinyl, her mother making herself at home in the relative isolation and remoteness of an adopted country. “I was sort of brought up to believe that I was this — all of which is true, by the way — privileged, upper-middle-class, sort of bohemian well-educated white girl from a very prestigious family background,” Hall said. “And that was sort of where it stopped. And when I asked questions to my mother about her background in Detroit and her family,” Hall said, her voice low and firm, “she left it with an ‘I don’t want to dwell on the past.’”

Until a friend pointed her to Nella Larsen’s “Passing,”

Passing is a 1929 Harlem Renaissance novel by a part-Danish part-black lady whose husband was the second African-American physics Ph.D. It’s about two women of part-black ancestry, one of whom is married to a black doctor, one of whom is passing for white and is married to a rich white man.

That part is based on the tabloid-fodder 1925 court case in which a scion of the Dutch Old Money Rhinelander family of New York attempted to get his marriage to a maid annulled on the grounds that she didn’t tell him she was part black. Her attorney pointed out she didn’t tell him she wasn’t black, and, c’mon, he argued, just look at her.

The jury agreed.

In the book, the woman who isn’t passing is tempted to try it, while the one who is passing for white discovers that she finds 1920s Harlem black parties more fun than Upper East Side white parties.

Lesbian feminist English professors love Passing because it shows that race is socially constructed etc etc plus they think it’s really, deep down, that the two ladies are lesbians passing as married women, hubba hubba.

Hall had no way of naming her intuition that these gaps in her family history were narratively charged — but reading it was a “gut punch.” “I felt deeply challenged and confused,” Hall recalled. …

And it had to have Black women cast in the lead roles of Irene and Clare — another sticking point in a moment when white actors still command the most star power and box-office revenue. Tessa Thompson and Ruth Negga signed on early and stayed attached through the years it took to gather the financing for the film, an unusual vote of confidence that Hall credits with the film’s eventually being made.

The problem with casting obviously black women in roles where they are supposed to be able to pass as white is that the movie makes no sense:

Who could director Rebecca Hall have cast in Passing who could, you know, pass? How about Rashida Jones, the daughter of Quincy Jones and Peggy Lipton?

How about, for that matter, Rebecca Hall?

But would making Passing with actresses who actually could pass be more trouble than it was worth? Much of the current out-swelling of racist hatred for whites is due to black women worrying that, despite their high self-esteem, they aren’t objectively as pretty as white women, so casting two pretty actresses who look white is just asking for trouble. Hence:

Other responses pointed to the ways that racial categories continue to shape our collective thinking. When the trailer for the film debuted on social media, it prompted a deluge of tweets. Some shared memes featuring the movie title alongside photos of multiracial celebrities like Rashida Jones, Maya Rudolph and Thandiwe Newton — the implication being that these lighter-skinned actresses would be a better fit for the roles or that they were continuing to benefit from the ability to pass as white in Hollywood and beyond. That so much of the discussion circulated around Thompson’s and Negga’s ability to successfully pass as white felt surreal, a return to a type of racial scrutiny that seems antithetical to the project of both the book and its adaptation.

Interestingly, her father Sir Peter Hall, while marrying Gigi’s Leslie Caron among many others and feuding with Sir Laurence Olivier, saw himself as passing as “phony member of the middle-class.” Sir Peter’s father was a station master, which evidently is not an august profession in Britain. But as a lad he got free railway tickets to London to watch Larry and Ralph Richardson.

I definitely doubt that Sir Peter, an extreme example of a man of the world, failed to notice that his third wife was kinda black.

Then the NYT reporter digresses to explain that she’s multiracial too — half German, half Chinese, and how that was very fraught in high school and she has to tell us all about it.

I would guess that being a half white, half Asian female in modern America is going through the game of life on easy mode, but that’s not what high school seemed like to her (or to anybody).

Anyway, the story of Hall’s maternal line is interesting. Her grandfather’s parents were both listed in the Census as mulatto, as he was in 1910. But in the 1920 Census, he had listed himself as a “Native American Indian.” He married a Dutch woman.

When I asked if her mother ever told stories about her own father that might shed light on why he chose to pass, or what his experience was like afterward, she told me that her grandfather was an artist and a musician, and this is part of what made them close — her mother learned to sing from imitating records in the basement of the family house. She left home soon after he died when she was 16, Hall said, gaining admission to the Cleveland Institute of Music against the odds and later moving to the Barbizon Hotel in New York, and eventually to Europe, where she sang in Salzburg, in Milan, in London.

It sounds like her maternal grandfather was a Europhile, and that Maria was his throwback baby who couldn’t pass for non-black. But her grandfather loved his artistic daughter and her mother loved her father and admired him for setting her on a path that led to her marrying the head of the National Theater of the United Kingdom and having a beautiful and cultured daughter.

 
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  1. Daniel H says:

    hubba hubba.

    Whoa. Dating yourself and me (sic), but I love it.

    • Replies: @Stealth
    , @AnotherDad
  2. Hall is one of those actresses who everyone told me was hot but I never felt attraction to. Much like with Angelina Jolie and Scarlett Johansson. Ironically, all three have ended up in Marvel movies in major roles. (Hall was in Iron Man 3 as one of Tony’s former lays/lady genius scientist).

    With Hall, her jaw always throws me off. It seems oversized and cavemannish when she talks. Probably helped her mother when she belted out all those arias.

    Anyway, as Hall is too old to be a “hot young actress” and Hollywood is selling out to wokist diversity quotas look for Hall to bilk this part-black thing to the moon and get a TV series or movie roles about it. Perhaps she can play the “first female DA” in some Wonder Years-esque TV series set in the South in the 60s, where she’s also secretly black and carrying on a torrid affair with the local head of the Klan.

    A girls gotta eat, you know.

  3. Also, I just noticed this:

    Rebecca Hall is thus a very light-skinned black girl with non-kinky long, luscious straight (if wavy) hair.

    She is quite literally a “Becky with the Good Hair.”

    • LOL: Tom F.
    • Replies: @Lloyd1927
  4. theMann says:

    Reasonable comclusion:

    All non 100% White females are Neurotic whack jobs to be avoided at all costs.

    It is just plain wrong opportunity:

    Deep down inside, non-white girls know they aren’t as pretty as white girls, and that is exploitable. You know, if you want a neurotic whack job.

    • Replies: @Thoughts
    , @Anon
    , @bomag
    , @Mj
  5. Roger says:

    Meghan Markle and Zendaya are actresses that almost light enough for passing. There must be lots of others with lighter skin who can pass for White.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    , @Kylie
  6. Franz says:

    The problem with casting obviously black women in roles where they are supposed to be able to pass as white is that the movie makes no sense:

    Was it ever supposed to?

    Most people’s interest in “passed for white” movies began and ends with Claudette Colbert in Imitation of Life some 90 years ago, skipping the lavish remake by Ross Hunter later on. It’s too specific to American culture and, having worked with blacks at a young age, ignores the fact that it’s blacks, not whites, who usually hate race mixing the most.

  7. Altai says:

    I like how in the media the deep consuming obsession that mixed race and even mixed-ethnicity people have with their own ancestry is, actually when you think about it, a rebuke of the existence or importance of identity.

    My fav is this piece by a Chinese-Dominican not unlike the author of the piece Steve is referencing. His affinity for Osaka itself also a demonstration of the concentric circles of ancestry and relatedness. In America with it’s small East Asian population the concept of ‘Asians’ as some kind of identity itself exists. (Tellingly he identifies himself as ‘biracial Asian’ might he actually be more self-conscious among his Chinese extended family than Western society itself?

    In the piece the author demands that Osaka always be treated as 100% Haitian but also 100% Japanese but also both. What’s so hard bigots?! It reminds me of the whirling dervish style of discourse familiar in trans circles where they desperately want to look and be treated like the opposite sex but in pursuit of this deny the very existence of sex in order to muddy the waters.

    The author here like many mixed-identity people feels subconsciously cut off from others and demands if they can’t have a tribe, nobody should either and seeks to undermine what dominant coherent identities exist in order to soothe their neuroses.

    https://nextshark.com/naomi-osaka-haitian-blackness/
    Stop Erasing Naomi Osaka’s Blackness
    By Elliot Sang

    [MORE]

    Biraciality makes people uncomfortable. In society, we communicate narrow ideas of racial identity, as if identity can fit into distinct, narrow pockets. Biracial public figures like Naomi Osaka prove it cannot. Osaka is a tennis star who represents Japan in competition; she is Japanese and American with dual citizenship; she is ethnically Haitian and Japanese.

    Monoracial Asian nations, like Japan, often respond to mixed-race people with hesitation at best and out-and-out bigotry at most. The fact that a Japanese star, featured in Japanese ads and winning sporting awards for Japan, is not only mixed-race but Black, shows an important amount of progress in Asian race relations. So there is something empowering about merely calling Naomi Osaka Japanese, whether it be in headlines or advertisements. And it’s a correct assertion: she is Japanese. Her biraciality does not make her less so.

    But we must also seek to empower her and respect her as a Black woman, singularly. Just as her Blackness does not make her less Japanese, her Japanese-ness does not make her less Black. We as Asians can borrow her for a story, but we can’t claim her for a narrative. And we cannot afford to gloss over her identity as a Black woman, which includes significant aspects of her physical appearance, in this day and age.

    But as well-intentioned and understandable as this tweet is, it does open up some issues. For one, the Time piece in question does not erase Osaka’s Haitian identity; it is included as part of the story. This response is pointed toward the AJ+ tweet, which says she is “the first Japanese woman to win a Grand Slam.” The tweeter is asserting that AJ+ should have/could have changed this to “the first Japanese-Haitian woman to win a Grand Slam.” But that change would be uniquely problematic.

    Part of the reason biracial people struggle to be accepted is in the constant necessity to note their biraciality. Osaka is the first Japanese woman to win a Grand Slam; there’s a strength in that statement. It’s saying she is Japanese, and that in itself has power to it. The accomplishment does not count less because Osaka is Black, and Osaka is no less Japanese because of her Blackness.

    I love and relate to Naomi Osaka as a fellow biracial Asian. I am Chinese and Dominican: both of those things. Yet I squint and squirm when I’m only referred to as one or the other: “Well, I’m not quite Chinese, am I?” Identifying as both often feels like identifying as neither. (It can also mean identifying as either: but we’ll talk about transraciality another day.) Growing up biracial means quickly learning that the language we have for these identities is insufficient.

  8. Have you guys ever talked to a woman before?

    The sexism and racism here make me sick
    white supremacy must be destroyed by any means necessary

  9. How about Rashida Jones, the daughter of Quincy Jones and Peggy Lipton?

    Now that’s a true passer. I had no idea Rashida was black until some article about her growing up with him as her father came out.

    To her credit, Jones has done very, very little to exploit her blackness to get roles. When she’s done work, its been comedies that she’s either very good in (The Office) or else underused by (Parks & Recreation). Her race is never mentioned, despite the fact that both shows did use race as points of awkward humor (e.g. the famous “Diversity Day” episode of The Office).

    She seems to avoid “black” roles, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Jones was offered this and declined.

  10. I’m so culturally unaware that I wondered “Who died?” when I read the headline. I guess I’ve gotta check my privilege.

    • Agree: Voltarde, Bill Jones, Iris
    • LOL: R.G. Camara
    • Replies: @Sollipsist
  11. Rebecca Hall is a pretty actress

    True.

    Syonredux redux:




  12. @R.G. Camara

    Quincy Jones has perhaps cashed checks for more different kinds of entertainment industry jobs than anybody else in history. So it’s not surprising that he’s encouraged his pretty daughter Rashida to try screenwriting as she’s passed 40.

  13. “But would making Passing with actresses who actually could pass be more trouble than it was worth?”

    Steve, you know that the word is ACTOR. Stop being such a sexist pig, doggone it…

  14. MEH 0910 says:

    Finding Your Roots Season 4: Carly Simon Clip

    Carly Simon learns the history of her ancestors in Finding Your Roots: Season Four, Episode Two, “Unfamiliar Kin.”

    https://www.pbs.org/weta/finding-your-roots/watch/episodes/unfamiliar-kin

    Carly Simon learns the surprising ethnic identity and hidden Cuban past of her own mysterious grandmother, a woman who reinvented herself so often her true name was nearly lost to history.

    [MORE]

    https://ethnicelebs.com/carly-simon

    Birth Name: Carly Elisabeth Simon

    Place of Birth: New York City, New York, U.S.

    Date of Birth: June 25, 1945

    Ethnicity:
    *50% Ashkenazi Jewish
    *25% German
    *25% Cuban [African, Spanish, likely small amount of Indigenous]

    Carly Simon is an American singer, songwriter, musician, and author.

    Carly is the daughter of Andrea Louise Heinemann Simon, a community leader, and Richard L. Simon (Richard Leo Simon), a book publisher, who co-founded Simon & Schuster. Carly has two children, singer and songwriter Sally Taylor and musician and actor Ben Taylor, with her former husband, singer, songwriter, and guitarist James Taylor.

    Her father was Jewish, of German Jewish descent. Her maternal grandfather was of German ancestry.

    Throughout much of her life, Carly was unsure of her maternal grandmother, “Chibie”‘s, background, believing her to have been from Spain, and of Spanish and Moorish descent. Research performed by the show Finding Your Roots with Henry Louis Gates, Jr. (2017) indicated that Carly’s maternal grandmother’s family was actually from Cuba, and was of part African-Cuban descent.

    A DNA test whose results were displayed on Finding Your Roots stated that Carly’s genetic ancestry includes:

    *10% Africa[n]
    *2% Native America[n]

    Thus, Carly’s maternal grandmother was likely of around 40% African ancestry.

    Carly’s paternal grandfather was Leo Leopold Simon (the son of Leopold B. Simon and Sophie Friedenburg/Fiendenburg). Carly’s grandfather Leo was born in Connecticut, to Jewish parents from Saxony, Germany.

    Carly’s paternal grandmother was Anna Meier/Mayer (the daughter of Wilhelm/William Meier/Mayer and Rosine/Rosina Mendel). Anna was born in Frankfurt am Main, Germany, to a German Jewish family.

    Carly’s maternal grandfather was Frederick Adolph “Fred” Heinemann (the son of Adolph Heinemann/Heineman and Mary Amelia Haas). Frederick was born in Pennsylvania. Adolph was Prussian, the son of August Heinemann/Heineman, who was born in Brunswick, and of Dora K. Mary Amelia was born in Pennsylvania, of German descent.

    Carly’s maternal grandmother was named Ofilia/Ofelia “Elma/Alma Marie”/Maria “Chibie” Oliete/Ollright. Ofilia was most likely born in Cuba. On her marriage record, she is listed as the daughter of Jose/Joseph Agustin Oliete/Ollright and Maria/Marie Patrociana de Jesús Baez. However, DNA and other research performed by Finding Your Roots indicates that Ofilia’s biological mother may have been Lauriana Oliete, who was Maria/Marie Patrociana’s daughter. Thus, Maria/Marie Patrociana may have been Carly’s great-great-grandmother rather than great-grandmother. Whether Jose Oliete was Carly’s great-great-grandfather was not addressed.

    In her autobiography, Boys in the Trees: A Memoir (2015), Carly wrote:

    It was Chibie, above all, who fascinated me. Who was Chibie? Where had she come from?… One story went that she was the illegitimate daughter of King Alphonso XIII of Spain and a Moorish slave he had gotten pregnant… I was able to confirm that until her mid-teens, Chibie lived in England, and that when she left the convent [where she spent time], she could read in eight languages. She was brainy, brilliant, and an utter original. She had dark olive skin and spent the rest of her life bleaching it in order to “pass” in a Caucasian world.

  15. MEH 0910 says:
    @Ebony Obelisk

    The sexism and racism here make me sick

    • Agree: ic1000, Goddard
  16. Anon[209] • Disclaimer says:

    How about Wesley Lowrey? Why do only persons-with-vaginas qualify to play women?

    • Replies: @Anon
  17. Stealth says:
    @Daniel H

    Piss on that. We shouldn’t be slaves to what’s conventional or popular in the present moment. I love using older slang.

  18. nglaer says:

    I watched John Cassavetes first film Shadows the other day on Criterion. Kind of about this, pretty passing girl whose white boyfriend is shocked upon meeting her brother. Good footage of Times Square in the late 50’s. And all the blacks are super dignified and smart.

  19. Clyde says:

    Her mother is of African American, Native American, Scottish and Dutch ancestry== confirms Wikipedia

    I guessed right about her mother being part Amerindian. Just about all blacks from Oklahoma and nearby are part Amerindian. The first Indian mega-casino was Foxwoods. Was opened up by the Mashantucket Pequots who have a large black component in them. Same for tribes on Long Island, NY and many other NE locations.

    The Mashantucket Pequot were a rag tag, self-proclaimed tribe of impoverished chumps, with 20-30 or so members. They lobbied and politicked for years for Federal tribal recognition. Once they got it they started building their casino, mostly with foreign money, from Malaysian gambling interests aka casino owners.
    Donald Trump on this scam. One of his comedic greatest hits.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  20. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    I love lanky women with long arms and a long neck.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Hypnotoad666
  21. El Dato says:

    From “Hidden Figures” to “Passing Figures”?

    But … why?

  22. Anonymous[275] • Disclaimer says:

    How about Halsey and Troian Bellisario? Halsey’s not an actress, as far as I know, but having her branch out Madonna style, no matter how clumsily, is still better than making a movie about passing with two unmistakably biracial actresses. Even if Negga is very talented, from what I’ve seen of her acting, it’s just impossible to suspend disbelief that far.

    If the characters were middle-aged, maybe Jennifer Beals and Rashida Jones.

    If the movie were to be made in a decade or so, maybe one of Thandie Newton’s kids with the right hairdo or Halle Berry’s daughter would’ve been available? Celebrity actors’ kids all seem to go into acting or modelling, so probably.

    Meghan Markle and Zendaya are actresses that almost light enough for passing. There must be lots of others with lighter skin who can pass for White.

    Markle, sure. Zendaya, no way. Which only makes sense, as her dad is very dark and seems unlikely to have much white admixture (unlike Quincy, or Halsey’s father, or Markle’s mother). Btw, it’s kind of interesting how much more attractive Zendaya is than either of her parents. But I suppose maybe they were much better looking in their youth than one would guess from looking at them now.

    There are definitely plenty of lower profile aspiring actresses who would fit, but I guess a movie needs some star power.

  23. @Altai

    Doesn’t seem to bother (RomaChinoCanadianish) Emma Raducanu.
    Or at least she doesn’t bring it out as a sledgehammer excuse whenever she (e.g.) ends up nearly puking and freaking out on court, through stress.
    Even though she’s about as British as Greg Rusedski.

  24. Dan says:

    Must mention The Human Stain by Phillip Roth, later a film starring Anthony Hopkins, which addresses passing and the origins of our Woke insanity. Also Pinky, 1949 film by Elia Kazan about a woman passing as white.

  25. S Johnson says:
    @R.G. Camara

    In the Office she was supposed to be a dark-skinned Italian (the character’s surname was Filipelli), so she was ‘passing’. In Parks and Rec she was referred to as a racial mix but she definitely wasn’t playing black (no black friends, white boyfriends, parents never seen).

    Not only did I not know that Rebecca was Sir Peter’s daughter and part-black until recently, until reading this I assumed she had grown up States-side. She does a very good US accent, so having an American mom must have helped. Compare her to the English-English Emily Blunt who also plays American parts a lot and you can see a difference, which I guess is why I assumed she must have been American or Canadian.

  26. S Johnson says:

    Sir Peter once walked past me in a theater in Bath. He looked very much a man of the world, even wearing the man of the world’s trademark fedora and pale suit.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  27. Anonymous[658] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ebony Obelisk

    Ya but not like hoodrats.

  28. @Steve Sailer

    I remember before Michael Jackson passed (*rimshot*) Quincy said the most annoying question he always got asked was “are you ever going to do another album with Michael Jackson?” because everybody knew Quincy produced Thriller with Jackson and even non-music folks thinks its the greatest album of all time and a cultural event.

    (To be fair, they’re right; no single album ever had the musical and cultural impact Thriller did, including the Beatles, Boomer turds).

    Anyway, Quincy said he responded that while he loved and was proud of Thriller, and wouldn’t mind working with Jackson again, that time was over and he had so many other projects and accomplishments he was actually perturbed people only knew him from Thriller.

  29. @Ebony Obelisk

    “Have you guys ever talked to a woman before?

    What’s it like?”

    FIFY

    • Thanks: Charon
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  30. I think what black people refer to as ‘passing’ is what white people call ‘being polite.’

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Muggles
  31. ic1000 says:

    Alexandra Kleeman’s NYT Magazine profile is about looks, and she writes at some length about how her own Taiwanese-mom, German-dad heritage was at the root of much childhood upset, teenage angst, and high-school alienation. A sampler of Kleeman educating her diverse readership (Upper East Side, Upper West Side, and SoHo):

    But in the classroom and on the playground, my racial ambiguity didn’t feel like something to celebrate. At some times, I felt illegible and unseen; at others, I felt that my inharmonious features — the unusual shape of my eyes, my odd accent and the gaps in my knowledge of either culture — were bizarrely visible. Other children and some adults asked about me, speculated about me, tried to puzzle through my racial and cultural identity. And in the estrangement I felt in the towns we moved to, surrounded mostly by white people and sensing my mother’s own melancholia at being stranded far from her home country and the languages she was most comfortable living in, I found little in my racial identity that I could use as an anchor.

    In many people’s experience — including Hollywood agents and my own — part-Asian and part-white people are often blessed with good looks. But of course most women (men) miss the “very pretty (handsome)” jackpot, so I felt kind of bad for this self-described ugly duckling.

    Two recent photos below the fold.

    So 34 year old Kleeman reaps the unearned privileges of a conventional, white pretty face and attractive figure. If her Wonder Years were defined by peers hounding her about her looks and her racial identity: who, exactly, encouraged this interest?

    Kleeman gets to re-live her unresolved tween neuroses with her white-woman readers. Their sufferings were white-bread. Hers were diverse, what a rich vein to mine.

    This author would benefit from a hard-boiled copy editor, to teach her to strip unneeded, ambiguous big words and convoluted sentence structure from her prose. What remained might be interesting.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Charon
  32. Thoughts says:
    @theMann

    Pretty much.

    I would add that all pure race people, when they embrace their Genuine Selves, are psychologically healthy.

    Lupita Nyongo strikes me as being very happy being herself. Why wouldn’t she be happy, she’s the definition of perfection.

    Mixed race people as a general rule are pulled in two directions and they can’t ‘rest’ and just ‘be’ who they were made to be.

    • Replies: @Thoughts
  33. John says: • Website

    This reminds me: I haven’t yet heard from UT Austin’s admissions department. But assuming I do get in, and major in Latin American Studies, and can’t completely avoid the folks who are hell-bent on autoethnography as I prefer politely to call it, I may impolitely ask those folks: “Do you have any friends?” Followed by “How do they stay awake?” If it doesn’t occur to the people who go on and on about race and heritage and identity that they are bores, does it occur to the people around them?

  34. @Steve Sailer

    Quincy Jones produced Michael Jackson Thriller which might be the most revolutionary pop music album since Sergeant Pepper but I always liked this one:

    Is there any video of Quincy Jones and Peggy Lipton doing disco? The idea of that makes me laugh but it might be out there, like those old home movies of Natalie Wood and Frank Sinatra smoking cigarettes on the beach at Malibu in their swim suits. Fun Thriller fact: Toto members were half the main studio musicians on the album. Maybe the worst rock band ever where the musicians were virtual virtuosos.

  35. @Daniel H

    From a lesbian, “hubba hubba” is a joke–mere cultural appropriation.

    The best lesbians can muster is “rubba rubba.”

  36. ic1000 says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    That so much of the [social media] discussion [of Passing‘s trailer] circulated around Thompson’s and Negga’s ability to successfully pass as white felt surreal, a return to a type of racial scrutiny that seems antithetical to the project of both the book and its adaptation.

    Big words and complex grammar to mask a thesis that’s entirely wrong.

    People on social media watch a trailer for a movie about part-black women passing as white. Given the looks of the lead actresses, these folks doubt that Thompson or Negga could plausibly pass as white. Strangely offended, Kleeman casts these comments as surreal racial scrutiny, antithetical to Rebecca Hall’s project.

    Is there a 34-year-old still enmeshed in her own childhood, wedging it in where it doesn’t really fit?

    I’ll take Kleeman and Hall more seriously once they drop the Blackity-Asiany angst and confront their unearned good-looks privilege.

    Stop giving audiences what they want to watch. On-screen roles for overweight actors with asymmetric features, only. Book contracts, too.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    , @Cato
  37. Thoughts says:
    @Thoughts

    That’s why Maria Ewing, choosing to just ‘be’ herself and not focusing on race actually did her daughter a great service

    Maria Ewing was an artist. She sung. She danced. She obviously felt good in British Theatre. The end. It doesn’t have to be more complicated than that sometimes.

    It really doesn’t.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
  38. Anon[684] • Disclaimer says:
    @theMann

    Uh, that’s not what science said. All the studies on the matter have shown thst men find Asian (and half-Asian) women prettier than white women.

    These women also have lower rates of divorce than white women — indicating lower neuroticism.

  39. The problem with casting obviously black women in roles where they are supposed to be able to pass as white is that the movie makes no sense.

    Yes, exactly. I was thinking this and then you wrote it so I didn’t have to say it but just want to amplify: neither Thompson nor Negga* is light enough to pass. Maybe Negga with the right makeup but Thompson? /guffaw/

    The best passing movie was “Pinky” directed by the great Elia Kazan, in which the mixed woman was played by pretty white starlet Jeanne Crain. Sounds ridiculous but it worked because the main character was supposed to be phenotypically white. As a great director, Kazan used Crain’s glazed exterior to produce a fine performance.

    *I mentioned Negga to an older black male acquaintance WRT the Loving movie and he howled with laughter at her surname.

    • Replies: @S Johnson
    , @Pericles
  40. Mike Tre says:

    This is a whole lot of words to point out that mixed race people struggle with their identity more than people who are not mixed race. Black women, or partially black women, are already at an emotional and intellectual disadvantage because of their race but mix in a little, or a whole lotta globalized identity politics and social media conditioning and we’ve got, trouble.

    With more and more black women being handed the keys to the kingdom, one result is now we have to watch movies about the struggles of half black women during the age of – this time in the 20’s – but I’d expect to see a lot more movies down the line about half black women and their place during (insert any random time period here.)

    And I wonder why old girl found the Harlem parties more fun that the upper class white parties? Is it because at the white parties she was just another Manhattan spinster but at the black parties she was likely the most attractive female in the room by a light year?

  41. @Roger

    No they aren’t. They should have cast white actresses in the part (see my comment about Pinky) but that’s impossible in this day & age so the movie becomes ludicrous.

    To which I say: COOL.

    I think we should stop bemoaning the fact that so much woke culture is shit, and start celebrating it.

    For example, Kaep is now comparing the NFL to slavery. Conservatards naturally respond with huffy tweets.

    We should agree with him. He’s a powerful ally in delegitimizing the NFL.

    • Agree: mc23
    • Thanks: Jack Armstrong
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  42. @Ghost of Bull Moose

    You could have added

    “Nudge, nudge, knowing wink, nod, and a grin.”

  43. Mike Tre says:

    Somewhat OT – From Best in Show to Unrest in da Geh-toe. Massive brawl at dog show in Miami, complete with security guards armed with what appear to be AK-47’s. Miami, the new Nigeria!

    https://news.yahoo.com/dog-show-shut-down-mass-124638621.html

    Weird old white dog breeders thought they would be the last ones affected by negro dysfunction, but it has found its way into just about all ways of life. Expect to see news stories about brawls at Amish barn raisings pretty soon.

  44. @S Johnson

    I see from Wiki that when he divorced his first wife Leslie Caron (still with us at 90), Warren Beatty was cited as co-respondent and had to pay his court costs.

    I also see that even being Warren Beatty and raising four kids in wedlock isn’t protection against one of them deciding she was really a boy all along. I guess this links into the “more mental illness in leftists” thread.

  45. bomag says:
    @theMann

    Well, 100% White girls are plenty neurotic.

    Can reliably be found downtown in some symbolic protest with the underlying theme that non-White girls are pretty too.

    • Replies: @Anon
  46. Wilkey says:
    @R.G. Camara

    It’s always a little funny to me when people say that obviously beautiful women, like Rebecca Hall, really aren’t beautiful. Yes, I say it sometimes too, but still. I can see what might make her not quite perfect in yours or my eyes, but if you or I were single and had a chance to date Rebecca Hall or Angelina Jolie, I don’t think we’d be rejecting either of them because of their looks.

    A question I’d like to know is, at what point does someone go from “passing” as white to, well, *being* white? If Hall’s maternal grandfather was half black then that makes her, ancestrally, about 87.5% black. Hall already looks almost 100% white, and her husband is a half-Jewish white guy. Will their child “pass” as white, or simply *be* white?

    A person absolutely gets -50% of his DNA from each parent. SFAIK that is non-negotiable. Once you get past the parent/child relationship the degree of genetic relationship is up to a lot of luck. Siblings share 50% of their DNA on average but it can be much more or much less than that. People get, on average, 12.5% of their DNA from each great-grandparent, but it can also be much, much less than that. I have no idea what a person with exactly 12.5% black African DNA would tend to look like, but I suspect that in the genetic shuffle Hall got much less than 12.5%, at least in the DNA that affects physical appearance.

  47. S Johnson says:
    @Paperback Writer

    I saw Ruth Negga as Ophelia in ‘Hamlet’ at the National Theatre in London. I didn’t think she really stood out but on the other hand it’s a thankless role. Plus, they had a mixed-race Laertes and Ophelia, but all the other parts very traditionally cast, which seemed weird, as the traditional Polonius wouldn’t marry a negress.

    On the other hand I saw a great production of ‘King Lear’ with Derek Jacobi as Lear and white actors in the other main parts but a black Cordelia. There the casting seemed to help the theme, underscoring Lear’s blindness, since he doesn’t notice that she’s different from his other two daughters.

  48. Anon[113] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wilkey

    Rebecca Hall isn’t “obviously beautiful”. She looks like a cadaver to me.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
  49. Anonymous[250] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paperback Writer

    No need for white actresses. There are plenty of part black actresses who look unambiguously white. But also, people who passed back then were often still somewhat exotic looking, just not enough that people could easily guess why. That’s why they’d often have stories of Native American, Italian, Portuguese etc. ancestry to explain it. An ethnically ambiguous actress like Meghan Markle would do more than fine.

  50. AndrewR says:
    @Altai

    He’s not 50% Chinese and 50% Dominican but 100% insufferable. I can’t imagine spending time around him.

  51. Trinity says:

    Poor ole Lizzie Warren had to pass as White girl her whole life.

    Cue: Half Breed by Cher

    • Agree: Jack Armstrong
  52. Anonymous[936] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wilkey

    It’s always a little funny to me when people say that obviously beautiful women, like Rebecca Hall, really aren’t beautiful. Yes, I say it sometimes too, but still. I can see what might make her not quite perfect in yours or my eyes, but if you or I were single and had a chance to date Rebecca Hall or Angelina Jolie, I don’t think we’d be rejecting either of them because of their looks.

    Yeah, commenters here do it all the time, especially when the lady in question is not white. I guess Hall qualifies, if only barely. It’s ridiculous, but not surprising.

    A question I’d like to know is, at what point does someone go from “passing” as white to, well, *being* white? If Hall’s maternal grandfather was half black then that makes her, ancestrally, about 87.5% black. Hall already looks almost 100% white, and her husband is a half-Jewish white guy. Will their child “pass” as white, or simply *be* white?

    A person absolutely gets -50% of his DNA from each parent. SFAIK that is non-negotiable. Once you get past the parent/child relationship the degree of genetic relationship is up to a lot of luck. Siblings share 50% of their DNA on average but it can be much more or much less than that. People get, on average, 12.5% of their DNA from each great-grandparent, but it can also be much, much less than that. I have no idea what a person with exactly 12.5% black African DNA would tend to look like, but I suspect that in the genetic shuffle Hall got much less than 12.5%, at least in the DNA that affects physical appearance.

    Depends on the society. As much as it’s nonsense to say “there’s no such thing as race”, different societies have different definitions. Are white Cubans white? White Mexicans? White Argentinians? How about the Afrikaners? Why is a 1/4 SSA African American black, but a 1/4 SSA Puerto Rican isn’t? At some point, it’s just semantics.

    A person absolutely gets -50% of his DNA from each parent. SFAIK that is non-negotiable. Once you get past the parent/child relationship the degree of genetic relationship is up to a lot of luck. Siblings share 50% of their DNA on average but it can be much more or much less than that. People get, on average, 12.5% of their DNA from each great-grandparent, but it can also be much, much less than that. I have no idea what a person with exactly 12.5% black African DNA would tend to look like, but I suspect that in the genetic shuffle Hall got much less than 12.5%, at least in the DNA that affects physical appearance.

    It’s entirely possible Hall is 12.5% SSA, or more. Anything below 15% is unlikely to be visible. We don’t know exactly how much SSA ancestry Maria Ewing has, but given that her SSA admixture is so obvious in her appearance, I think it’s very unlikely to be below 20%.

  53. anon[255] • Disclaimer says:

    All I can say is if only. Isn’t the biggest part of “passing” simply acting white? If blacks in the US weren’t living up to their worst stereotypes, and “pass” as middle class Americans, would there even be racial conflict?
    A black woman looking “too” white and acting “too” white is a dream “problem”.
    And all these women … hall and the others may not be the hottest stars, but by realistic standards are very hot.
    Sasha Lane from American Honey passes nicely. As lower class white. Mmmm.

    • Replies: @Joseph Doaks
  54. AndrewR says:
    @Wilkey

    In theory at least, a half black half white person who mates with a full white person could create a full white baby. In practice, siblings who have one or two mixed race parents often differ significantly in phenotype. “White Hispanic” George Zimmerman is noticeably less white than his brother Robert.

    • LOL: Chester
  55. Charon says:
    @nglaer

    Generally speaking, black people had self-respect back then, and generally speaking they earned it. Now they demand the respect of others, and do absolutely nothing to deserve it. Quite the contrary, in fact.

  56. Charon says:
    @ic1000

    Other children and some adults asked about me, speculated about me, tried to puzzle through my racial and cultural identity.

    Sure. May have happened once or twice, when she was ‘sharing’ aggressively, and begging them to show some interest in her ancestry.

    Yet another self-absorbed female fantasist trying to surf the cultural waves for fun, profit, and most of all attention.

    • Agree: Right_On, Hangnail Hans
  57. Anonymous[234] • Disclaimer says:

    Ha, interesting! I never knew anything about Hall’s ancestry and always just assumed that she is Jewish. Probably because of some very slight North African features (that’s how I see it) and, of course, her name. Easily 50% of Rebeccas and Sarahs I met were Jewish. Plus, it’s Hollywood (somewhere between 20 and 25% of Oscar winning actresses are Jewish).

    She is a good actress. She was even very good in the ridiculous The Night House recently.

  58. Mj says:
    @theMann

    An hour spent in a suburb or an office will disabuse you of this belief.

  59. joe862 says:
    @R.G. Camara

    Jolie’s mental problems take about 3 seconds to sniff out and johansson just isn’t especially good looking. Above average, sure, but not in the top half of a typical squad of college cheerleaders.

  60. joe862 says:
    @Ebony Obelisk

    Have you ever looked at a globe? Lots of places not run or populated by whites. Why on earth are you on this site?

  61. barnabus says:
    @Wilkey

    IFRC the SA Boers are like 8% African, on average. So 12% would be on average like a mildly tanned Boer. But there are lots of variations – Alexander Pushkin was 12% EastCoast African https://twitter.com/Russia/status/1269166238418296832/photo/2

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  62. The problem with casting obviously black women in roles where they are supposed to be able to pass as white is that the movie makes no sense

    Well, maybe it makes no sense. But it is funny. Imagine Leslie Jones in movie with her character passing for white, and nobody noticing.

  63. Anonymous[411] • Disclaimer says:
    @MEH 0910

    The only thing on Finding Your Roots that’s ever really surprised me was when actress Anna Deavere Smith’s (best known for The West Wing and Nurse Jackie, and played “passing” actor Wentworth Miller’s and Anthony Hopkins’s mother in passing drama The Human Stain) DNA results turned out to be a 50/50 mix of African and European.

    With her natural hair she definitely doesn’t “pass” at all, so her being African American wasn’t exactly shocking. But the very first time I saw her (with straightened hair) I had actually thought for a second that she might be an exotic looking Sicilian or Lebanese before I settled on Puerto Rican, so 50/50 was really unexpected. Can’t really think of a more ambiguous and less SSA looking 50/50 mix off the top of my head. But maybe not that surprising among multigenerationally mixed AfrAm families.

    It’s quite interesting, the range of looks in biracial and multiracial populations.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  64. Dmon says:
    @Wilkey

    It can get a little technical, but here are some of the official metrics for calculating percent of target needed by the aspirant to officially be classified as part of a more favored group.

    To pass as: You must be at least:
    Female : 0%
    Black : 0.0013% (1 drop = 0.06485mL, 5L of blood in average human)
    Indian : 0.0976% (1/1024)
    Vaccinated : 300% (soon to be 400% in Israel)

    • Replies: @ic1000
  65. Curle says:
    @R.G. Camara

    “ Hall is one of those actresses who everyone told me was hot but I never felt attraction to. Much like with Angelina Jolie and Scarlett Johansson.”

    I’m with you. I noticed you received a skeptical comment along the lines of ‘of course she’s hot.’ Well, not so much for me either. Here’s my idea of hot, a distinctly different type:

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
  66. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    I thought Rebecca Hall was quite good in The Town as well as The Prestige.

    I find she has a very down-to-earth, almost girl next door presence. Her American accent is excellent.

    I thought she played well with Ben Affleck and against Blake Lively (who was excellent as the ultimate slore) in The Town.

    Rebecca seems to have a good figure but hasn’t really put it on display for the world. Unfortunately, she seems to have had English dental care, so her smile isn’t what it could be.

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
  67. @Wilkey

    It’s always a little funny to me when people say that obviously beautiful women, like Rebecca Hall, really aren’t beautiful.

    “Forget it Jake….it’s the Internet!”

    The keyboard Hefners always chirp stuff like, “Elbows too sharp, 2/10, wpuld not bang.”

    • LOL: Right_On
  68. @Wilkey

    You’re right, Rebecca isn’t passing, she is just white at this point. That’s why the suggestion of her playing the passing role in her own movie wouldn’t work. Nobody in the 1920s would seriously inquire as to the roots of a woman with her appearance. In most of the “tragic mulatta” stories from the 19th and early 20th century, the mixed-race heroine has to come up with an explanation for her exotic appearance, like being Portuguese or Greek. Obviously Rebecca Hall looks like an ordinary British woman and so wouldn’t need to concoct tales of of Mediterranean ancestry to account for her heritage. Someone who looks like Rashida Jones would be best for the passing role.

    The one drop rule existed, but it wasn’t as hard of a line as people assume, especially for women. The few women who got caught passing (like the Rhinelander case lady) usually did have some obviously SSA features coupled with light skin and so resembled Rebecca Hall’s mother more than Hall herself.

    Someone who may have passed? Varina Davis, the First Lady of the Confederacy. There were rumors she was partially Indian or mulatto and although the rumors annoyed her, they never truly threatened her status. She looks somewhat mixed-race in her younger portraits/photos and was born in Natchez, where the color line was fairly relaxed before the Civil War. Supposedly her family was Welsh/Scots-Irish but the origins of her illegitimate maternal grandmother are murky.

    • Thanks: Wilkey
    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
  69. Lighten your skin
    And straighten your hair
    Be a Cauc-a-zoid if you dare

    I’ll be your Cauc-a-zoid
    Come on and wind me up
    https://genius.com/Midnight-star-freak-a-zoid-lyrics

  70. ‘…Much of the current out-swelling of racist hatred for whites is due to…’

    Much of the current out-swelling of racist hatred for whites is due to the fact we allow and even encourage blacks to hate us and to express that hatred.

    Ultimately, we have no one to blame for this but ourselves. Whenever we decide to put an end to this nonsense, we can.

    • Agree: Chester, Joseph Doaks
  71. @R.G. Camara

    How can you mention Jones and not her wonderful work on “Angie Tribeca”?

  72. The problem with casting obviously black women in roles where they are supposed to be able to pass as white is that the movie makes no sense

    Like Anthony Hopkins playing a black guy who passes, in the movie version of Philip Roth’s The Human Stain. At least it was a great movie!

  73. Anonymous[309] • Disclaimer says:

    The flight from White in the Boston mayoral race.

    https://apnews.com/article/boston-mayor-election-arab-americans-people-of-color-71739427b3021f53c18f1e51a20e7fed

    Are Arab Americans people of color? Mayor vote raises issue

    By STEVE LeBLANC

    BOSTON (AP) — Are Arab Americans people of color?

    The question has been bubbling beneath the surface of Boston’s historic mayor’s race, where one of the two candidates, Annissa Essaibi George, has found herself challenged on the campaign trail about her decision to identify as one.

    On Tuesday, Essaibi George faces off against fellow Boston City Councilor and Democrat Michelle Wu, a daughter of Taiwanese immigrants. Whoever wins will be the first woman and first person of color elected to the city’s top political office…

    Nuha E. Muntasser, who describes herself as an Muslim Arab American or Muslim Libyan American, said she cringes whenever she has to check the box for “white” instead of being given the option of identifying as North African or Middle Eastern.

    “I do not identify as white and it’s frustrating when I have to identify as that,” she said.

    The choice is all the more discouraging because many Arab Americans don’t share the same experience as white Americans, she said. That sense of otherness can be even more pronounced among Arab or Muslim American women who wear the hijab, she said.

    “People like me, we have to prove our Americanness,” said the 26-year-old, who lives in Sudbury, 45 miles west of Boston, and serves on the town’s Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Committee…

    Nb: Sudbury is ~ 94.23% white and ~3.72% Asian (NE Asian & Indian), < 1% black. The median income was \$151,041 and the median family income was \$222,008.


    Woman of color Annissa Essaibi George with her family


    Another woman of color whose parents are from Taiwan

    • Replies: @Michelle
  74. @S Johnson

    Plus, they had a mixed-race Laertes and Ophelia,

    Do you mean Gertrude?

    OK, Negga wasn’t bad, but casting her deprived a white ingenue of training. The age of the great English Dames is over.

    On the other hand I saw a great production of ‘King Lear’ with Derek Jacobi as Lear and white actors in the other main parts but a black Cordelia.

    Interesting. I guess it can work but on the whole I’m opposed to casting blacks in white roles, even if it might work as a fluke, as you point out. And see above: Cordelia is a great part, and every part that goes to a blacktress for political reasons means a white girl’s career is hampered.

    (Opera is different. I’ll excuse black singers in white parts because of the incredible demands of the instrument, i.e., the voice, the same way I put up with fat sopranos.)

    But the cow’s out of the barn, and now black actors are de rigueur in all productions, everywhere. Classical theater is ruined.

  75. @International Jew

    Wasn’t he supposed to be a really white looking black guy? Like half a drop?

  76. Gamecock says:

    Wait a damn second! Whose the victim here?

    Wouldn’t the whites tricked by the passers be the victims?

  77. “Then the NYT reporter digresses to explain that she’s multiracial too — half German, half Chinese,”

    I wonder if there was ever a time when she broke out that Certificate of Coolness and someone replied, “Oh, just like Dr. No!”?

  78. The real question is, couldn’t they find a black actress with a name other than Negga?

    • LOL: Trinity
    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
  79. “Her grandfather’s parents were both listed in the Census as mulatto, as he was in 1910. But in the 1920 Census, he had listed himself as a “Native American Indian.” He married a Dutch woman.”

    Paging Mel Brooks.

  80. huisache says:

    Hall was very good in a Woody Allen movie called something, something Barcelona.

    She was great as Cumberbatch’s cheating wife in the BBC mini series PARADE’S END, which was based on a very good novel by Ford Maddox Ford.

  81. There is no shame in being partly black. She should be thankful that at least she is not Irish.

    And anyway the whole point of acting is that you pretend to be somebody else.

    In my first stage role I played the part of a man called Joseph who lived 2000 years ago and was a Jew, but I think I pulled it off rather well.

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
  82. Alfa158 says:
    @ic1000

    We’ve already gotten the Black Achilles and Lancelots and so on. I suppose it was the logical next step from Black actors pretending they are White: Black actors pretending that they look White so that they can play Black people pretending that they are White people.
    Maybe someone can advance it one more level: A biopic with White actress Nicole Kidman, playing a Black writer Nella Larsen who wrote about Black people who pretend to be White. Very meta.

    Also, we saw Maria Ewing perform Salome late in her career. My wife’s verdict was that she had gone too far past her sell-by date to be removing all the veils. The production had the stage lights killed within two seconds of the last veil dropping, so at least they didn’t linger.
    Today we’ll see if Tannhauser repeats the last production where a dozen male and female extras wearing only g-strings spend the Venusberg scene writhing around performing various permutations of simulated sex acts in (almost) all combinations.

  83. Kylie says:
    @Roger

    ‘Meghan Markle and Zendaya are actresses that almost light enough for passing.”

    Markle may be light enough now (in a distinctly weird bleached-out way). But in her childhood and teen pics, with her broad nose, darker skin and kinky hair, there’s no way she could have passed for white. She’s had a lot of work done.

  84. Mike Tre says:

    OT – Here is an extended news report about the fake swine flu pandemic of 1976, with what I consider shockingly unbiased and objective reporting relative to the last 20 years.

    https://leakedreality.com/video/25859/swinefluscam-of-1976

    Although much less extreme then, the parallels between government scare mongering then and now are pretty obvious.

  85. Nachum says:

    Guaran-damn-tee ya that her mother didn’t use the word “Indigenous,” and certainly not with a capital. I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t have said “African-American” either.

  86. @MEH 0910

    Those grandparents… seriously, does any race change its name/s more than Phoenicians? Asians seem to just give their kids cutesy first names like, um… Brandon, but I suppose their family names tend to be simple and easy to pronounce, unlike those ugly Phoenician jawbreakers.

    Still, crypsis much?

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    , @Jack D
  87. Mr. Anon says:

    There is no shame in being partly black.

    There is no shame in being all black.

    In my first stage role I played the part of a man called Joseph who lived 2000 years ago and was a Jew, but I think I pulled it off rather well.

    We note that the engagement was extended. You seem to still be playing the role of a man.

  88. @Wilkey

    My knowledge of scientific genetics could fit in a thimble, but isn’t there some deal where things can get shuffled so much that suddenly (for example) you wind up with an obviously mostly black kid, no matter how far back the black relative is? (As in, once you go black, you never go back).

    Or is that only in H. P. Lovecraft type stories?

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    , @Jack D
  89. Mr. Anon says:

    Who could director Rebecca Hall have cast in Passing who could, you know, pass? How about Rashida Jones, the daughter of Quincy Jones and Peggy Lipton?

    I do like Rashida Jones. She is quite pretty, taking after her mother in appearance. And her dad was a fine musician, responsible for a lot of 60s and 70s grooviness. Among his many scores were those for The Italian Job and The Cactus Flower

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  90. Mr. Anon says:

    OT – one of the best speeches ever, given by German parliamentarian Christine Anderson:

  91. OT: “Texas” Halloween Party Shooting. 1 Killed, 9 Injured. Let’s see who these “Texans” are and whether or not they fit Sailer’s Law of Mass Shootings.

    In other mainstream news, “‘America’” has a gun violence problem.” Huh, is that like when the gun magically shoots itself, or is it like when a live round somehow gets into a prop gun on a movie set? Somehow, guns sure do seem to be loading and shooting themselves a lot lately.

  92. Who could director Rebecca Hall have cast in Passing who could, you know, pass? How about Rashida Jones, the daughter of Quincy Jones and Peggy Lipton?

    Rashida Jones is a sure fit, but what about Meghan Markle ?

  93. Ian Smith says:

    I’ve liked Rebecca Hall since she had a smallish role in the Prestige. I had no idea she was anything other than White for years. With her long hair and slightly Asian eyes, she looks more Amerindian than Black to me.

    Jennifer Beals (another one I didn’t know was part Black until recently) turned in a moving performance as an actress who passes as White and whose black mother pretends to be her maid in The Last Tycoon.

  94. Wilkey says:
    @Paperback Writer

    OK, Negga wasn’t bad, but casting her deprived a white ingenue of training. The age of the great English Dames is over.

    English dames will remain so long as there is any culture left in England to produce them. Maybe or maybe not, but there are still plenty of young English/British actresses who make great impressions. British actresses are still far and away superior to anything America is providing.

    Stage is a different medium than film. Stage is both more and less real. It is more real in the physical presence of the actors and the live performance, but it’s also more fanciful, like “here we are, putting on a play.” Because they are, and you work with what you have, just as children would. When an actress in a play butters a piece of toast, there is frequently no butter, no knife, and no toast.

    That makes it easier to accept people who don’t match the race or even genders of the characters they’re portraying. Gender swapping was done at least as far back as Shakespeare’s time. Certainly Othello wasn’t played by an African of any variety. I’ve seen several plays with “race blind casting.” Some of the minority actors give truly good performances, and some leave you with the sense that the director had to fill a quota, or was trying to make a point.

    But film and television are more real in the sense that they present their material as “this is how it really happened (kind of).” It’s permanent; it’s almost documentary – even when you know it’s fiction – and, unless it’s an art house film, it just looks ridiculous.

  95. J.Ross says:
    @R.G. Camara

    But Cammer, chocolate tastes better with a soft center of fine Egyptian cotton.

  96. @R.G. Camara

    “With Hall, her jaw always throws me off. It seems oversized and cavemannish when she talks.”

    One word: orthodontics.

    Do you want your presently cute, feminine daughter to have a strong ramrod straight prognathic manjaw? Make sure she gets braces.

  97. prosa123 says:
    @Wilkey

    A question I’d like to know is, at what point does someone go from “passing” as white to, well, *being* white? If Hall’s maternal grandfather was half black then that makes her, ancestrally, about 87.5% black [I assume you meant white]. Hall already looks almost 100% white, and her husband is a half-Jewish white guy. Will their child “pass” as white, or simply *be* white?

    Strictly speaking, because of the One Drop Rule this never can happen. Even if a person has less than 1% black ancestry and looks completely white they’re still legally black in the United States.
    As a practical matter, if the black ancestry is so trivial as to leave no meaningful physical traces I suspect that it sometimes fades out of sight and the person in question actually becomes white. How often that happens, I don’t know.

  98. Wilkey says:
    @prosa123

    Ouch. Cue the commenters who’ll tell us “Tessa Thompson isn’t actually pretty.”

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
  99. @prosa123

    “… Even if a person has less than 1% black ancestry and looks completely white they’re still legally black in the United States.”

    I don’t think so.

  100. @R.G. Camara

    Rashida Jones’ hair is a dead give away. Even with all her money, it’s way too stiff. So much so, that I think she wears a weave now.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  101. Thomm says:

    Well, a large number of the WN commenters here have very openly said that for them, having sex with a mulatto woman is worse than having sex with a white men.

    Since Rebecca Hall and Carly Simon are both about ~10% black, I suspect most of them would still prefer a white man over either (in their prime).

    Hence, the question is posed to the following commenters, since all of the below have said that having sex with a mulatto woman (even Halle Berry) is worse, in terms of their preference, than having sex with a white man.

    Would they even go for Rebecca Hall or Carly Simon?

    The list is here :

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-168/#comment-4950865

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    , @Colin Wright
  102. @Ebony Obelisk

    A troll!
    My kingdom for a troll!

  103. @Wilkey

    A person absolutely gets -50% of his DNA from each parent. SFAIK that is non-negotiable.

    Be assured that the Wokels are working on fixing that.

    btw Am I the only one who had to check the spelling of Ms Negga’s name?

    Isn’t that a candidate for a reassuring (sic)?

  104. Mike Tre says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I’ll see that raise you 2 dead and a dozen wounded early this morning in a mass shooting at a Halloween party in Joliet, IL, about a mile from the defunct Joliet Prison made semi famous in the opening scene of The Blues Brothers.

    https://wgntv.com/news/chicagocrime/2-killed-over-a-dozen-injured-in-joliet-township-shooting-at-halloween-party/

    Going forward I think we can expect mass mass shootings over every holiday that gives people an excuse to party and become intoxicated. Thanksgiving is right around the corner!

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  105. Malcolm Y says:

    When you mix cold air with warm moist air, you get tornados. This should be strictly forbidden. To hell with their feels.

  106. S Johnson says:
    @Paperback Writer

    When I saw it Gertrude was played by a white actress, Clare Higgins. I don’t have a problem with multiracial casting but trying to give it logic within the world of the play as they did with Ophelia and Laertes (two siblings whose mother doesn’t appear) can backfire, because it suggests a realism which isn’t really appropriate (if they have a white father you assume they had a black mother, but the rest of the play’s Denmark was white).

    Casting solely on the strengths of the particular actor seems a better bet.

  107. Pericles says:
    @Altai

    In the piece the author demands that Osaka always be treated as 100% Haitian but also 100% Japanese but also both. What’s so hard bigots?!

    That seems to make her 300%, but we should really say she’s 300% Haitian, 300% Japanese and 300% both, bigots!

  108. Flip says:

    As a practical matter, if the black ancestry is so trivial as to leave no meaningful physical traces I suspect that it sometimes fades out of sight and the person in question actually becomes white. How often that happens, I don’t know.

    There is a not insignificant number of people of Southern colonial descent who look completely white who show up as a few percent African in DNA tests. Afrikaners typically have 5-7.5% non-white ancestry (Malay, South Asian, Bantu, and Khoi) and look completely white.

  109. mc23 says:

    At what point is someone with nominal black ancestry passing for white?
    Not so far in the past someone would write of the English race or the Irish race.
    If someone is 10% Irish and 90% English do we say they’re passing if they say they’re English?
    I suppose there’s always the chance of passing on ginger or kinky hair but that happens in the best of families.

  110. Liza says:

    Half a drop of Indian or Black blood and people think their schit smells like roses.

  111. Pericles says:
    @MEH 0910

    Who was Chibie? Where had she come from?… One story went that she was the illegitimate daughter of King Alphonso XIII of Spain and a Moorish slave he had gotten pregnant…

    Sure, seems as legit as a Biden presidency, but more importantly: did Carly use to be Cleopatra in a previous life?

  112. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    I think what black people refer to as ‘passing’ is what white people call ‘being polite.’

    And what white people call ‘being polite’ black people call ‘acting white’.

    Negga, PLEASE!

    Keep in mind that our 44th white President passed as black despite being raised by his wealthy white grandparents.

    @prosa123 #38:

    Even if a person has less than 1% black ancestry and looks completely white they’re still legally black in the United States.

    Not true at all. The truth is simply that they get to demand special treatment.

  113. Clyde says:

    All I know is that Rebecca Hall is not black enough to be in a McDonald’s TV Commercial. Those 365 black ones.

  114. S Johnson says:
    @Wilkey

    This is particularly true of the Elizabethan theater which was pretty closely related to the dumb show in which performers would have worn masks (a type of which is performed during Hamlet) and which had mainly imaginary scenery (no need to build and change sets). Characters address the audience in soliloquies which the other characters can’t hear, so there is clearly a world outside of what’s strictly happening on stage. The transition towards indoors, more technically elaborate theater began during Shakespeare’s lifetime — Macbeth would have had multiple visual effects like the witches suddenly disappearing. I can see that colorblind casting would be a problem for, say, a realistic Noel Coward play where the set is built to be where the action is actually happening, but in Shakespeare not so much.

    • Thanks: Wilkey
    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
  115. Pericles says:
    @Paperback Writer

    I mean, can you even say her name in contemporary America? Or for that matter informally greet her, like “wassup, Negga”?

    • LOL: SaneClownPosse
  116. @Buzz Mohawk

    TEXARKANA MAN ARRESTED

    Keuntae McElroy, 21, of Texarkana, Arkansas has been charged with Aggravated Assault, and has additional charges pending.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  117. mc23 says:
    @prosa123

    The One Drop Rule was a legal artifact of the ante-bellum south. Then it was a social custom, now it’s becoming part of the Fight from White trend.

    Why would anyone identify as White anymore if they could exclude themselves?

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
  118. @S Johnson

    Can a gentile play Shylock?

    Can an Irishx play MacBeth?

    Can a proud strong Black trans woman play Ann Franck?

  119. HA says:
    @prosa123

    “As a practical matter, if the black ancestry is so trivial as to leave no meaningful physical traces I suspect that it sometimes fades out of sight and the person in question actually becomes white.”

    If you’ve ever talked to dog breeders, there is also a concept called “breeding true” to consider, which means parents are expected to reliably pass on their traits to the next generation.

    Dogs of a specific breed breed true, producing young that are very similar to their parents.

    And to the extent that there’s enough black ancestry to where a “black” child is born of two “white” parents which happens occasionally in South Africa, New Orleans and other areas of the South, and Cuba and so forth, it will affect that analysis, in the sense that if Junior clearly looks different, despite acing the paternity test, his parents will themselves thereby be seen in a different light, so to speak. (That likely happens frequently in dog breeding as well, especially with newer and less established breeds like Jack Russells and yellow Labs, but I’m guessing “throwbacks” are or were oftentimes just culled, and outside of sex-selective abortions and the like, that kind of thing is frowned upon among humans, or at least hidden away.)

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    , @Anonymous
  120. @prosa123

    ‘As a practical matter, if the black ancestry is so trivial as to leave no meaningful physical traces I suspect that it sometimes fades out of sight and the person in question actually becomes white. How often that happens, I don’t know.’

    At a certain point, it seems to be up to the person.

    I’ve encountered people in the South who pretty definitely had a dollop of the old tar barrel, but thought of themselves as white — and therefore were white. Conversely, I worked with some people who probably had less black blood than the guy I just described — but apparently thought of themselves as black, and therefore were black.

    Meghan Markle looked white to me when she first showed up. But she’s seen as black, so okay — she’s black.

    It’s actually a bit of a problem. At some point, we’re going to start fighting back, and then there’ll be a bit of a race war. Most people are pretty obvious — but what do you do with those on the fringe? What about the people who — as in this article — can and do become ‘white’ but who have definitely black parents — or siblings?

    I know a pair of children with a Hispanic mother. The daughter looks ‘white’ — kinda Linda Ronstadt league. She’s just fairly short. The son is 6′ 2″ — but decidedly brown. Kinda like Tuco in ‘Breaking Bad’ — in a nice way.

    I don’t see why the same wouldn’t happen with the offspring of black and white parents. It’s another reason for clear laws against miscegenation, firmly enforced. It’ll avoid unhappiness down the road.

    • Replies: @prosa123
  121. Hollywood has made this sort of film before. Imitation of Life, filmed in both 1934 and in 1959, explores the idea of a woman (ironically, the novel that the original film version is based on was written in the late ’20’s) having to pass as white.

    https://counter-currents.com/2019/11/imitation-of-life-an-imitation-of-imitation-of-life/

    “Imitation of Life is about a mulatto girl who is struggling with her ethnic identity in the era of racial segregation. She’s light enough that she can pass for white, but her charcoal-black mother keeps showing up and blowing her cover, causing much resentment and conflict. There are other subplots as well, but the one about the mulatto daughter is the one everyone remembers.”

    “In the 1934 version, the young mulatto girl is played by Fredi Washington, the daughter of two mulattos. In reality, she was much darker than she appears, and heavy makeup [Skin lighteners] was used to make her lighter – and presumably more relatable – to Depression-era white audiences.”

    As this novel was actually written in the late ’20’s, the timeframe similar to passing, it does show an interesting firsthand slice of life between the two races set in NY.

    I won’t quote reams of the review, but this part has stood out in my mind for some time, and remember, the 1934 version is closer to the 1920’s, and serves as a more accurate, authentic slice of life for racial relations in US society.

    The biracial daughter is constantly being sent from white school to white school, because her black mother keeps inadvertently blowing her cover. When she and her mother (who is partnered with a white heiress in a business that makes them all very rich).

    In the 1934 version, by the time Peloa is an adult, they are all fabulously wealthy and living in a mansion in New York. Bea has thrown a party full of wealthy New York socialites, which Delilah and Peola can only listen to from the basement. Peola is particularly irritated that she cannot join the party. [Because she isn’t white, even though she usually can pass on the streets. This is a more accurate realistic portrayal of biracials in the first third of US society. Remember, the 1934 film is based on the novel of the 1920’s, and follows the novel quite faithfully]

    “Bea and Delilah’s solution is to send Peola “”down South . . . to one of them high-toned colleges where only the high-toned goes.” Peola initially balks at going to “a negro school,” but eventually gets sent down there anyway. Shortly after arriving at the Southern negro college, Peola goes AWOL. Bea, being rich and resourceful, is able to track Peola down to a restaurant where she is passing for white and working under a fake name. When Delilah comes into the restaurant to bring her back, Peola pretends not to know her. Peola would rather be a white shop girl than the black daughter of a millionaire.”

    Read this last line again, it is important. “Peola would rather be a WHITE SHOPPING GIRL THAN THE BLACK DAUGHTER of a MILLIONAIRE.”

    —translation: back in the day, it was more advantageous to be white in US society at large than to be black. Obviously, race trumped money. And this is in liberal bastion NYC, set in the ’20’s.

    One does get the suspicion that the film Passing, made in 2021 Woke US, has bowed to some of the politics of the Current Year, as noticed by Steve’s observation about a biracial would rather hang out and party with the cool blacks rather than with the Upper East Side (e.g. traditional old money, status, influence, power,….and of course, privilege. Upper East Side was about as white as you could get)

    Except for Rachel Dolezal of recent fame, the reality was that biracial women (and sometimes men) if they were able to, it was to their advantage to pass for being a white woman, and many tried to pass. Certainly didn’t see white women back in the ’20’s attempting to pass for being black. Wonder why that is the case?

  122. @S Johnson

    ‘…Casting solely on the strengths of the particular actor seems a better bet.’

    I dunno. I was watching some revival of some piece written a hundred years ago, set in the English countryside.

    The actor playing the gardener on the estate was played by a black. The improbability of that was hard to ignore.

  123. @nglaer

    ‘…And all the blacks are super dignified and smart.’

    ? Aren’t they always?

  124. @S Johnson

    Technically, if her mom was about part-black, that would make Hall about 75% white (or perhaps 80% white). Of course, if her mom was less than part-black, say, about 33%-40% black, that would make Hall around 85-90% white. It’s really not even a thing by this point, just a curiosity. Any skin lighteners she’d use would make her almost albino or something.

    If the original production had trouble casting a biracial actress, it would’ve made more sense to cast the ol’ standby, Halle Berry. Everyone knows that she is multi-racial. Or perhaps Hollywood wanted a younger actress (although the actress in Passing in pushing 40 herself, so might as well have casted Berry).

    Halle Berry would’ve been the best fit. And she is US born.

  125. @S Johnson

    Your original comment upthread said that Negga played Ophelia, and: “Plus it had a mixed race Laertes & Ophelia.” Since you had already referred to Negga playing Ophelia, this confused me. Did you mean that there was another female part that was played by a mixed-race actress?

    • Replies: @S Johnson
  126. JimDandy says:

    Then the NYT reporter digresses to explain that she’s multiracial too — half German, half Chinese, and how that was very fraught in high school and she has to tell us all about it.

    I would guess that being a half white, half Asian female in modern America is going through the game of life on easy mode, but that’s not what high school seemed like to her (or to anybody).

    She recognized that victimhood is currency and reasoned that being half-white actually gives her more to whine about than if she was just a regular ol’ strong young woman of color.

  127. @Colin Wright

    Agree. I find it hard to believe that England doesn’t have a wealth of talented actors who can play period parts.

    And casting David Olaweyo as Inspector Javert was an abomination.

  128. AceDeuce says:
    @S Johnson

    …a black Cordelia. There the casting seemed to help the theme, underscoring Lear’s blindness, since he doesn’t notice that she’s different from his other two daughters.

    Wouldn’t he know from touching her hair?

  129. @Wilkey

    English dames will remain so long as there is any culture left in England to produce them. Maybe or maybe not, but there are still plenty of young English/British actresses who make great impressions. British actresses are still far and away superior to anything America is providing.

    There are plenty of young English women who could take the place of the Great Dames but they aren’t getting the chance.

    But maybe I’m wrong. So, name a few 20-something classically-trained British actresses, I mean, English and white, who are making a splash. Don’t mention Claire Foy – she’s close to 40. I think she’s part of the last generation of great English actresses. She made it into the Cathedral before it went woke.

    Your point about gender-swapping is particularly stupid. The boys were made up to look like women, and when they grew beards, they were out of a job. Likewise a white actor playing Othello was made up to look like a “Moor.”

    Today, black actors are presented to the audience AS black. It’s gaslighting. If you notice, you’re a racist. If you don’t, you’re a racist.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    , @Joseph Doaks
  130. @Wilkey

    It’s always a little funny to me when people say that obviously beautiful women, like Rebecca Hall, really aren’t beautiful. Yes, I say it sometimes too, but still. I can see what might make her not quite perfect in yours or my eyes, but if you or I were single and had a chance to date Rebecca Hall or Angelina Jolie, I don’t think we’d be rejecting either of them because of their looks.

    Two words: Christie Brinkley, the original Perfect 10.

    *As far as anyone knows, Christie Brinkley isn’t attempting to pass for being white.

  131. AceDeuce says:
    @S Johnson

    Who said that Karen (O, ironic name!) Filippelli (that’s the correct spelling) was “supposed to be a “dark-skinned Italian? If anybody can’t tell she’s part groid, I wonder about them.

    Ever hear of Giancarlo Esposito?

    • Replies: @S Johnson
  132. PassingBy says:

    I watch a lot of Hikaru Nakamura’s chess streams on Twitch. For those who don’t know (most of the human race outside of Russia, probably) Nakamura is one of the very best blitz chess players in the world. In fact, in the blitz ratings he’s a close #2 to world champ Magnus Carlsen.

    Anyway, Nakamura’s mother is of northern European ancestry and his father is Japanese (and I mean he’s actually from Japan, not Japanese-American). So he has interesting DNA. He sent a sample to one of the genome testing outfits and talked about the results on one of his streams. This guy seems to have bits and pieces from all over, though he’s mostly – surprise! – northern European and Japanese.

    I will say that he’s never tried to play the race card. In fact, he once laughed at a question in Twitch chat about whether he ever suffered discrimination because he looks rather Japanese. He seemed to think that it was loony to even imagine such a thing was possible in modern-day America. He’s probably right.

  133. S Johnson says:
    @Paperback Writer

    No, sorry, I just meant to emphasise that they cast the siblings as similarly colored.

  134. @Jack Armstrong

    Keuntae McElroy, 21

    Obviously another one of those blond boys who do all the rapin’ and shootin’.


    Keuntae McElroy

  135. ic1000 says:
    @Dmon

    > … here are some of the official metrics for calculating percent of target needed by the aspirant to officially be classified as part of a more favored group…

    That’s good, but a surer and easier way is simply to answer this question: May a white person touch your hair?

    (Imagine the hidden suffering of a Passing Woman of Color being forced to smile and say, “Of course!” But then, whites are only interested in fascinated by obsessed with Black Lady Hair. So the issue could never arise. A conundrum!)

    • Replies: @Dmon
  136. S Johnson says:
    @Colin Wright

    If it was a realistic Edwardian or Georgian play I can understand that. But casting a black actor as the gravedigger in Hamlet or the gardener in Richard III wouldn’t trouble me. It’s a different mode of drama.

  137. AceDeuce says:
    @nglaer

    That was Cassavetes’ first film as a director–not his first film.

    In his first starring role, 1957’s Edge of the City, he co starred with Sidney Poitier. Time magazine had this to say:

    “…the Poitier character “is not only the white man’s boss, but is his best friend, and is at all times his superior, possessing greater intelligence, courage, understanding, warmth and general adaptability.”

    Wikipedia adds:

    “The Cassavetes character was notable for its hint of homosexuality, which was uncommon for the time.”

    Cassavetes was a typical clueless libcuck of his time–private school educated, who grew up on suburban Long Island–(the town he grew up in is still only 2% negro as of the 2010 Census.). His adulthood was spent in a gated Hollywood Hills mansion, literally located on a ridge called Mt. Olympus.

    Of course he idolized blacks–he spent no time with them.

    • Replies: @Joseph Doaks
  138. @prosa123

    Even if a person has less than 1% black ancestry and looks completely white they’re still legally black in the United States.

    Legally black? Nonsense on stilts. Cite the U.S. Code section that defines what constitutes legal blackness.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  139. @mc23

    It’s not really antebellum: one drop rules were adapted from the reconstruction period through the early 20th century. Was also followed in some places outside the South.

    Before the Civil War, people who looked white tended to be legally regarded as white. In instances where blood quantums for legally defining somewhat as colored or mulatto existed, they tended to be 1/4 (Virginia) or 1/8 (Florida) black.

  140. Gamecock says:

    Shirley Bassey was just a great singer.

  141. @Mike Tre

    Thanksgiving is right around the corner!

    It’ll be a turkey shoot!

    Here are the suspects we will be supposed to suspect:


    Mass shooting suspects predicted for upcoming Thanksgiving 2021

    • Agree: SafeNow
    • Replies: @Stan Adams
  142. @Buzz Mohawk

    Keuntae McElroy is the alleged shooter who killed one and injured “at-least” nine. The race of Mr. McElroy is not reported. According to one news item “…Police say no mug shot of the suspect will be released until Monday…” But three of the facts we know so far indicate strongly that he is black.

    –Creative first name. (I wonder how he pronounces it?)
    –Very bad shooting.
    –No mugshot and no race identified.

    If Mr. McElroy does turn out to be black, this is further support for the Sailer Rule for mass shootings. Also, no doubt Mr. McElroy and the dead and injured are all victims of white supremacy or the lack of “common sense gun control” or more likely both.

    And the immortal Elvin Bishop (student of the immortal and polydactylic Hounddog Taylor) provides musical accompaniment.

    “Way down in the country
    people sure get funky
    Down by the Arkansas Line

    Saturday night’s a big night
    For cuttin and shootin and fist fights
    Down by the Arkansas Line

  143. @Wade Hampton

    ‘Legally black? Nonsense on stilts. Cite the U.S. Code section that defines what constitutes legal blackness.’

    I believe that at some point the Supreme Court ruled there was no legally enforceable standard. If someone claimed to be black, or denied being black, people just had to take their word for it, legally speaking.

  144. S Johnson says:
    @AceDeuce

    As well as the name the character’s ethnicity was referred to in an episode where she has to record an ‘away’ message and Jim gets her to do it in fluent Italian. My point’s just that Italian is the only ethnicity mentioned in connection to the character, like Jones’s character’s race is indeterminate in Parks too.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  145. prosa123 says:
    @Colin Wright

    Seven or eight years ago I worked for a short time with a young black woman in her mid-20’s. She was lighter than most blacks, but given that blacks have a wide spectrum of skin color that wasn’t surprising.
    One day she mentioned to a co-worker that her mother was Korean. One look at her made it abundantly clear that she was unmistakably part-Asian, not just from color but from obviously Asian features. Looking back, I’d say that she was more obviously part-Asian than Naomi Osaka, who of course wasn’t a public figure at the time.
    To this day I cannot imagine why I had never noticed her mixed ancestry. It was almost as if her black ancestry made all else invisible.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  146. @R.G. Camara

    Anyway, Quincy said he responded that while he loved and was proud of Thriller, and wouldn’t mind working with Jackson again, that time was over and he had so many other projects and accomplishments he was actually perturbed people only knew him from Thriller.

    That demonstrates that Quincy is a savvy dude.

    You only catch lightning in a bottle once, maybe twice in a lifetime.

    Attempting to recreate it is the height of foolishness.

  147. Anon[409] • Disclaimer says:
    @bomag

    Can reliably be found downtown in some symbolic protest with the underlying theme that non-White girls are pretty too.

    Where do you guys come up with this shit?

    Blacks girls are stereotyped as less attractive. That’s it. All other nonwhite women including Asian, Latina, etc? Not so. In fact the narrative that has emerged from decades of facial beauty research and sociological interviews is that white women are considered less attractive than Asian and half-Asian women. Hands down, Asian and Latina women are considered more attractive than white women. The white women themselves even admit this, admitting that they feel “less feminine” and “desexualized” around Asian women.

  148. Muggles says:
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    I think what black people refer to as ‘passing’ is what white people call ‘being polite.’

    In Louisiana (and perhaps elsewhere) it used to be called “high yellow.”

    That was a compliment. Some moved away and “became white” via subsequent marriage.

    It was said that the most beautiful women in the NO brothels were such. Many seem even now (biracial) to be very beautiful. Original French and Spanish settlers brought in few White females so with many slaves (and fewer racist compunctions from the Latin cultures) there was more mixing. Though the “one drop” rule originated there. Perhaps due to pressure from White wives or concerns over inheritance (uniquely Napoleonic there until recently) with potential competing biracial offspring.

    Not sure if any actual valid study has been made on this topic (are biracial women more likely to be considered beautiful than non biracial, on average?). A forbidden topic?

    Most Louisiana “blacks” are more mixed than from elsewhere, in my experience. Lighter. This is true for many American Negroes, unless recent arrivals. When I visited sub Saharan Africa long ago the locals were much darker than American blacks. Of course some Africans are more truly “black” in color than others.

  149. @Charon

    Yeah, that’s why whites in the 50s and early 60s were so excited when blacks started moving into the neighborhood.

  150. notsaying says:

    I just saw the clip.

    I think it is possible for people to get used to color blind casting in many cases. You can get over the fact that people of color are where they don’t belong historically because in the course of the story it doesn’t matter much. It certainly requires the actors involved to go all in and be very good so you forget about how they look.

    But when the point if the story is about race, rejection, acceptance and deception, casting people who cannot pass just makes everything crazy. I do not know how many people will have the patience to deal with a movie that fights against its own reason for being. To expect people to ignore the evidence of their own eyes as they are directed to examine skin color for hours is asking for a lot.

    It will be interesting to see how real people respond, not just critics and the elite who will feel forced to say nice things.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  151. The irony is that Hall may have had to use skin darkeners to make her appear more biracial for the film.

  152. @Anon

    Culturally/ideologically influenced “science”.

    East-Asian females are less individualized than white females (and white people in general). Their two big pluses are they don’t turn, as easily as too many white/Western women into bossy preachers &,more importantly- landwhales.

    But- that’s all.

    White women rule.

  153. @Wilkey

    It seems pretty clear that parental genetic contributions are more nuanced than ’50/50′ – which is true mathematically (‘load meets seed’) but ‘not-quite’ operationally, and not in terms of outcomes.

    It depends to whether and to what extent relevant genes
     • differ between the parents;
     • are dominant/recessive, and
     • a bunch of other stuff that would three pages to explain in a half-assed way.

    It is entirely possible that the combination of parent A and parent B, results in a significant chunk of DNA in the child that is 100% identical to parent A (or B) despite being ’50-50′, too.

    A large part of our genome is ‘non-coding’, too (as far as we can tell): it doesn’t determine how a protein is coded in the individual carrying the genome.

    Non-coding DNA used to be referred to as ‘junk’ DNA – which is strange since only ~2% of the human genome encodes for proteins, whereas as much as ~50% is transposons (which are segments of non-coding DNA that appear repeatedly – apparently at random – in the genome) and retrotransposons (fragments of RNA that sequester multiple copies of themselves around the genome and can convert back to DNA at some points). (The link attached to ‘retrotransposons’ is really interesting).

    Carrying around genuinely-pointless DNA seems counterintuitive – it would be like evolving non-functioning bodyparts.

    It seems likely that non-coding DNA will eventually be found to have error-checking and error-correcting functions, amongst other functions that we haven’t yet investigated. People really have to understand that this science is in its infancy.

  154. Wilkey says:
    @Paperback Writer

    So, name a few 20-something classically-trained British actresses, I mean, English and white, who are making a splash.

    Well by the time they come to be thought of as dames they are no longer in their 20s. I’m not 14 anymore, so I don’t axactly tend to keep track of all the actresses who impress me so much.

    Your point about gender-swapping is particularly stupid. The boys were made up to look like women, and when they grew beards, they were out of a job. Likewise a white actor playing Othello was made up to look like a “Moor.”

    My point was that the theater has a long history of casting actors and actresses in races and genders to which they don’t belong. But “stupid?” OK, whatever.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
  155. @S Johnson

    But casting a black actor as the gravedigger in Hamlet or the gardener in Richard III wouldn’t trouble me.

  156. SafeNow says:

    My roots come from back in Nottingham – – yes, as in Robin Hood. So maybe every day when I wake up I should get ready to spend the day trying to pass as not being a highwayman.

  157. There is something utterly wrong with people who are obsessed with their racial heritage, as if it is something that completely defines them.

    They don’t seem to possess a strong sense of the personal self.

  158. @Buzz Mohawk

    A couple of years ago, there was a big push to produce new woke versions of the Rockwell classics.

  159. Wilkey says:
    @James J O'Meara

    It seems like to me this would be mostly likely to happen when both parents are mixed race, not just one, and both have some distant (but not too distant) ancestry that does not match how they identify.

    How you identify has both a biological and a cultural component. A person who is 1/8th black may not look very black, but they’ll usually have family members who remember the black great-grandparent. Step back to 2nd great-grandparent (1/16th of your ancestry) or 3rd great (1/32nd of your ancestry) and the memory dims and its affect on your appearance does, as well.

    If I were 12.5% black (or Indian, of Japanese, or whatever) I would probably call myself mixed race. At 6.25% I might, but probably not. At 3.125% I definitely wouldn’t. It just becomes an interesting tidbit about my ancestry.

  160. @notsaying

    ‘I think it is possible for people to get used to color blind casting in many cases. You can get over the fact that people of color are where they don’t belong historically because in the course of the story it doesn’t matter much…’

    This begs the question: why should we want to?

    Post-Summer of George, I’ve lost all desire for a harmoniously integrated society. Others can fight for that; I’ll fight to win.

  161. Wilkey says:
    @Anon

    Rebecca Hall isn’t “obviously beautiful”. She looks like a cadaver to me.

    Very well, then. I guess that makes me and millions of others necrophiliacs.

  162. @Franz

    I went scanning here to see how long would it take for someone to remember Claudette Colbert and Louise Beavers in Imitation of Life. That is the one honest classic film of this type. The rest are all overdrawn hype.

    • Agree: Franz
  163. @Wilkey

    Well by the time they come to be thought of as dames they are no longer in their 20s. I’m not 14 anymore, so I don’t axactly tend to keep track of all the actresses who impress me so much.

    Wow, that never occurred to me! Seriously, try to think logically. You build up a body of work in your 20s-40s, and then they “knight” you in your 40s or 50s or 60s. Got that?

    In order to build up that body of work, you need to be cast. You need the opportunities. Those opportunities are scarce enough in good times.

    Now, the opportunities for white actors are halved, while the opportunities for black actors are doubled, as they get black parts, and white parts.

    Do you realize how goddamn difficult it is to be a great classical actor? They need training and opportunities. Without that, they won’t become great. Whites aren’t getting those opportunities.

    I said that blacks now have twice the opportunity whites have. It might be worse:

    https://www.rsc.org.uk/much-ado-about-nothing/cast-and-creatives

    I can foresee a time when English theater is 100% black. Whites are simply being exterminated from the English stage.

    My point was that the theater has a long history of casting actors and actresses in races and genders to which they don’t belong. But “stupid?” OK, whatever.

    Stupid, blind, and dumb. You don’t see what’s right in front of your eyes.

    The English theater for a while cast beardless boys as girls. That’s about it. The theater in most other societies (where they had theater) cast females as women. (Weird, I know.) I don’t know of any society that has purposely cast outside the race of the character, except opera parts that cast Orientals non-racially, because they simply didn’t have Oriental singers in 19th Century Italy.

    Those societies that are developed enough to have classical repertoire are proud of promoting their own people as performers. Except the Anglosphere. It’s a form of suicide.

    • Agree: 3g4me
  164. anon[410] • Disclaimer says:
    @R.G. Camara

    no single album ever had the musical and cultural impact Thriller did, including the Beatles, Boomer turds).

    You are full of shit

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  165. @prosa123

    It was almost as if her black ancestry made all else invisible.

    True. Blacks stick out among major races as something radically alien.

  166. @Colin Wright

    We have an authentic Black Farmer now. Just the one. Very well thought of.
    Younger than me, and only arrived aged about 4.

    The witless townie conceit and ignorance (hey it’s the BBC aren’t it) involved in surgically implanting a clueless foreigner of any sort into the rigidly stratified, almost tribally parochial agricultural society of rural England right up to the First World War is a real dealbreaker on the ‘suspension of disbelief’ necessary to tolerate theatrics.

    Yea like some random black geezer shanghaied from Africa, Jamaica, even Brizzle or That London in those days (not like Wilfred and all his modern tackle) would have the slightest idea how to go about coping with the English seasons and climate, age-old techniques and weird local vegetation.
    Even if he didn’t die of hypothermia and pneumonia. Most of you young ‘uns have no idea how effin’ cold, windy, dark, and perpetually damp (pre-‘kerosene’/town gas/electric and most of all North Sea gas) Britain used to be. Coal and sticks. That was it. Well apart from the odd witch or priest now and again, for a treat.

    Never mind the masses of starving, sinister peasantry hanging about either. Who wanted his job, if not for themselves, at least for their wife’s sister’s cousin’s stepfather, who was too old to handle the plough no more.

    I should cocoa.
    Could turn up in the pond one night. Must ‘a bin drunk, eh?

  167. Dmon says:
    @ic1000

    That opens up a whole theological can of worms. Suppose your hair is made from the hair of Muslims in China and sold to you by a Korean in a rapidly Latinxizing neighborhood. What percent of your hair is victimizing you?

  168. @anon

    “If blacks in the US weren’t living up to their worst stereotypes, and “pass” as middle class Americans, would there even be racial conflict?”

    I think not!

    • LOL: 3g4me
  169. Is there anything more obnoxious than wealthy mongoloid-americans appropriating black racial grievances to advance the interests of their race in America?

  170. @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    ‘…Do you want your presently cute, feminine daughter to have a strong ramrod straight prognathic manjaw? Make sure she gets braces.’

    Girls are different, of course, but…

    I remember my parents earnestly debating getting me braces after my mouth responded to a retainer by simply slowly pulling the wires out of the retainer.

    They decided against them. I’ve never noticed a problem. Obviously, it’s a matter of degree, but…

  171. I…am…a…Black Woman!

  172. @Anon

    The dragon lady stereotype is a myth? I don’t think so.

    I have friends that dated Asian women and it always turned out bad. The cultural differences are just too large to overcome.

  173. @Paperback Writer

    ‘…I can foresee a time when English theater is 100% black. Whites are simply being exterminated from the English stage…’

    That is to say, the English stage is being exterminated.

    I certainly don’t follow it, but I know enough about blacks and the role they play to draw the obvious conclusion.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
  174. @Paperback Writer

    “If you notice, you’re a racist. If you don’t, you’re a racist.”

    The gospel of “Wokeness!”

  175. Anonymous[234] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mike Tre

    That’s a weird dog show. Mostly blacks, practically everyone, blacks and whites, is very young. Not like any dog shows I’ve seen in the interior of the country. Jeez, looks like a real zoo.

  176. @AceDeuce

    “Of course he idolized blacks–he spent no time with them.”

    Pretty much the typical liberal’s problem with reality.

  177. Kylie says:
    @Wilkey

    I grew up watching old Hollywood films with my dad and listening to him opine on which actresses were beautiful and why–beautiful as opposed to sexy. He loved Joan Fontaine’s lips (“perfectly formed”) and Olivia De Havilland’s high cheekbones (“a woman can get away with almost anything if she has high cheekbones”).

    I think Rebecca Hall is extremely attractive but going by Papa’s standards, I don’t think she is is physically beautiful. Except for her gorgeous eyes, her features are pleasant but not much above average. Her figure is willowy but not voluptuous. She has pretty hair.
    What she does have is an extraordinarily appealing expression. She looks very feminine and very vulnerable. There’s something about her that just draws you in, a kind of low-key magnetism.

    Angelina Jolie is a grotesque. Her preventative double mastectomy removed her best assets; her anorexia took care of the rest. She’s got cray-cray eyes. She looks like a starved, poisonous toad.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Right_On
  178. Angharad says:
    @R.G. Camara

    I had no idea who Hall is. She’s nothing special. In fact she’s kinda weird looking. She is obviously of mixed race mystery meat. The prognathic jaw comes from her Negro DNA. You may notice sometime that negro female faces are often indistinguishable from negro male faces. I think the only man that would find her attractive would be a closeted homosexual.

  179. @Clyde

    Malaysian gambling interests aka casino owners

    Are Malaysian gaming lords Chinese, or Malays profiting from the Chinese Achilles heel?

  180. @Dr. Krieger

    I love lanky women with long arms and a long neck.

  181. @Anonymous

    If I hadn’t read your comment I would have assumed that Anna Deavere Smith is part Australian Aborigine. As Mr. Sailer has noted recently, mixed white-aborigine people start looking white within a couple of generation of intermarrying with whites. The same isn’t true of those with Sub-Saharan admixture.

  182. @Paperback Writer

    I added an edit but it didn’t take.

    Casting for Much Ado About Nothing, Royal Shakespeare:

    https://www.rsc.org.uk/much-ado-about-nothing

  183. MEH 0910 says:

    https://ethnicelebs.com/rebecca-hall

    [MORE]

    Place of Birth: London, England

    Date of Birth: May 3, 1982

    Ethnicity:
    *English (father)
    *African-American, Dutch (mother)

    Rebecca Hall is a British-American actress. She is known for her roles in the films Vicky Cristina Barcelona, The Gift, and Godzilla Vs. Kong, among many others. Her father, Peter Hall, was English-born, and was a director who founded the Royal Shakespeare Company. Her mother, Maria Ewing, is American-born, and is an opera singer and actress. Rebecca is married to American actor Morgan Spector, with whom she has one child.

    Rebecca’s father was of English descent. Rebecca’s maternal grandfather was born to parents who were both of part African ancestry; he also had possible Scottish and Sioux Native American ancestry. Rebecca’s maternal grandmother, who was caucasian, was Dutch.

    Rebecca’s half-siblings are producer Christopher Hall, actress, musician, and journalist Jennifer Caron Hall, stage director Edward Hall, set designer Lucy Hall, and actress Emma Hall. Christopher and Jennifer’s mother is actress Leslie Caron.

    Rebecca’s paternal grandfather was Reginald Edward Arthur Hall (the son of George Hall and Edith Kate Mitchell). Reginald was born in Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, England. George was the son of John Hall and Mahala Vincent. Edith was the daughter of John Mitchell and Elizabeth Ann Tindall.

    Rebecca’s paternal grandmother was Grace Florence Pamment (the daughter of Frederick William Pamment and Phyllis Louisa Wilson). Grace was born in Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, England. Frederick was the son of Charles Edwin Pamment, Jr. and Jane Linsey. Phyllis was the daughter of Henry Wilson and Elizabeth.

    Rebecca’s maternal grandfather, Norman Isaac Ewing, was born in Washington, D.C., c. 1892-1894 (most likely in 1894). Both of Norman’s parents were of at least part African ancestry. Norman was the son of John William Ewing and Hattie Norman, who married on July 16, 1885 in Washington, D.C. On the 1910 U.S. Census, John is listed as born in Tennessee and Hattie, the daughter of Isaac Franklin Norman and Amanda Jane Myers, is listed as born in Ohio.

    On the 1910 U.S. Census, Norman’s “race” is listed as “Mulatto” (mixed race), and so is the “race” of both of his parents. At this time, Norman’s birth place is listed as Virginia, and his residence place is listed as Washington, D.C.

    On the 1915 South Dakota State Census, Norman’s race is listed as “Indian” (Native American), and on the 1920 U.S. Census, his “race” is again listed as “Indian”. On the 1920 U.S. Census, his birthplace is listed as Washington, D.C., while his father’s birthplace is listed as Oregon and his mother’s birthplace is listed as Washington, D.C. It is perhaps notable that the woman he was married to at this time, Margaret “Maggie” Culbertson (who was not Rebecca’s maternal grandmother), is listed as “Indian” on the 1920 Census also. It is not clear if Norman had documented Native American ancestry. Some African-Americans told census takers that their race was “Indian.”

    Rebecca’s maternal grandmother was Hermina Maria Veraar (the daughter of Robertus Veraar and Hermina M. Vernellen). Rebecca’s grandmother Hermina was Dutch, and was born in Amsterdam. She was white.

  184. Cato says:
    @ic1000

    I’ll take Kleeman and Hall more seriously once they drop the Blackity-Asiany angst and confront their unearned good-looks privilege.

    Like many others here, I’m sure, I have my own, very cherished, bi-racial children. Depending on their mothers, they have looks that appeal to the multitude, or not. And that is the thing that makes all the difference — good looks — along with intelligence, and personal wisdom. Race is not an obstacle in America today.

    • Thanks: ic1000
  185. Shirttail-on-topic, Hollywood is cracking down on protestors. (Okay, not that Hollywood.) She’s trying to pass as architecture:

    Police warn woman not to wear Halloween costume as protest of proposed Hollywood beachfront condo

    But she’s firmly in the tradition of William Van Alen:

    [MORE]

  186. Michelle says:
    @Anonymous

    The great British actress, Olivia Coleman’s third great grandmother was Indian. She didn’t know that until she went on a television show about finding your roots.

    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
  187. @Peter D. Bredon

    Cut the damn crap. If you’re going to accuse people of crypsis, at least be open and above-board.

  188. Lloyd1927 says:

    The “passing for white” accusation has nothing to do with slavery. It is based on the presumption that true whites are racially pure and that the “taint” of “black blood” makes one unworthy of a white identity – regardless of the predominance of European ancestry. Notice that the attitude toward American Indian ancestry in whites is exactly the opposite.

    The film by the very white multiracial Brit Rebecca Hall is based on a 1929 novel by a light-brown half-Danish woman named Nella Larsen. Many so-called “Negro” writers of the Harlem Renaissance loved the “passing” topic because they wanted to frighten the whitest of the multiracial population into the “Negro” fold. Their motives were a combination of jealousy, resentment and a fear that “white blood” was needed to “improve” the “Negro race.” Understandably, many of the multiracial part-black whites said, “Fuck this!” and decided that they would not spend their lives hanging their heads and constantly saying the equivalent of “Excuse me. You’ve made a mistake. I’ll not as good as you think I am.”

    Note also that nearly all Latinos, Arabs, North Africans, etc. are multiracial but there is a gentleman’s agreement that their African ancestry is not to be mentioned because it is considered embarrassing and directly contradicts the “one drop” myth. Demands for forced identification (such as reciting one’s genealogy to everyone) are symbols of social inferiority (like the yellow stars the Third Reich forced on Jews). When you look at Latinos and Arabs, the USA never really had a “one drop rule.” It was more of a “Don’t ask, don’t tell” rule. Even in the South, it was not unusual for a white family to be known to have some “black blood” but they were treated like other whites as long as they behaved as whites were expected to behave.

  189. @Thoughts

    That’s true. I first became aware of Maria Ewing when she sang Cherubino in Figaro (with Kiri te Kanawa). Then I forgot about her. I didn’t realize she was black. I still don’t care.

  190. @Kylie

    Rebecca Hall at her best looks kind of like Liv Tyler, who is not much of an actress but whose beauty just lit up the screen in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

    Hall’s father was perhaps the best stage actor’s director in the English speaking world, so she probably picked up a few acting tips along the way.

  191. Hailee Steinfeld (of the 2010 True Grit) is another one.

    She’s an octoroon. Tragically, she will no longer be able to bear my children.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  192. @Michelle

    The very lovely Olivia does look like Ms Hall, from an Insular perspective. Specialises in impersonating English royalty. No objections from the Palace.
    But her Anglo-Indian heritage has, to put it gently, been somewhat oversold by the eternally malevolent BBC.
    Turns out her “could be, should be” Desi ancestress was nothing of the kind.

    Bazett’s son, Colman’s third great-grandfather Charles Bazett, married Harriot Slessor. Researchers discovered that she was born in the Indian city of Kishanganj, lost her British father when she was aged three, and then made the journey to England alone.[17] Slessor’s passage was paid for by her paternal grandmother.[18] The episode speculated that Slessor’s mother might have been Indian, but did not present concrete proof; after the episode aired, the Berkshire Record Office published the will of Slessor’s mother, which proved that her name was Seraphina Donclere (possibly Donclerc, ED), evidently of European origin, and that she died in 1810.

    Could be slightly Spanish, at a reach?
    But Colly is very much a web-footed East Anglian swamp-dweller.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  193. Anonymous[354] • Disclaimer says:
    @barnabus

    IFRC the SA Boers are like 8% African, on average.

    No, they are around 8% non-European, but less than half of that is African (Bantu and Khoi together). The rest is split between South Asian and Southeast Asian.

  194. @Steve Sailer

    Ultimately, that’s not actually saying very much. A stage director, compared to a film director, doesn’t have nearly as much to do with the production. Basically he warms up the actors, helps them rehearse. Then the actors take it from there. Whereas a film director is a true multi-tasker. Has to watch the actor’s performances, often helps with the editing post-pro, controls the story line (the film’s narrative). If its a high budget film, he contributes to the special effects in a major way.

    Compared to all that, a stage director watching over the play, which is almost entirely word based and actor driven, doesn’t have very much to do. If anything, the playwright probably carries more weight in theater world than the director. Even the producer has more to do than the play’s director.

    There’s a reason why there’s tons of books on film directors and very few books on theater directors. He happens to find himself in a position that’s little more than an afterthought (helps with rehearsals, that’s about it, compared to his film counterpart).

  195. @Mike Tre

    Weird old white dog breeders thought they would be the last ones affected by negro dysfunction, but it has found its way into just about all ways of life.

    From the video, it looked like a dog show just for the bruthas.

    It’s for this kind of dog:

    https://theabkcdogs.org/

    Looks, like a bigger, nastier pitt bull.

    The photo in the link is a stock photo.

  196. @anon

    no single album ever had the musical and cultural impact Thriller did, including the Beatles, Boomer turds).

    You are full of 💩

    So was Thriller. But at least we know now not to trust RGC’s opinions on music as well as sex.

    Mr Richard above says the album was “revolutionary”. It certainly was– in the French/Russian/Chinese sense of the word. I can’t remember anything from it except the Al Yankovic parody.

    That “Don’t Stop” thingy from a few years earlier (not to be confused with Fleetwood Mac’s or Queen’s or Journey’s) was okay, but it’s 99% production and 1% song. Actually, 98% arrangement. The real stars of the track might not be Jackson and Jones, but Ben Wright, Jerry Hey, and Greg Phillinganes.

    All of them except Jackson, the youngest by far, are still alive.

    • Replies: @anon
  197. Anonymous[387] • Disclaimer says:
    @HA

    And to the extent that there’s enough black ancestry to where a “black” child is born of two “white” parents which happens occasionally in South Africa, New Orleans and other areas of the South, and Cuba and so forth, it will affect that analysis, in the sense that if Junior clearly looks different, despite acing the paternity test, his parents will themselves thereby be seen in a different light, so to speak.

    People always say this, and then “back it up” with a single alleged example who not only didn’t ace any paternity tests, but explicitly refuses to take any (not that she owes anybody anything, of course). Something like that can happen with the child of a white-looking individual from a visibly mixed family, but among established populations with a ubiquitous low level of admixture from generations ago, it’s just urban legend.

    • Replies: @HA
  198. @Wilkey

    A question I’d like to know is, at what point does someone go from “passing” as white to, well, *being* white?

    It should be a functional test like the “Turing Test” — if a reasonable observer thinks you are white then you are “white.” At least for the binary “social constructed” definition.

    As an aside, the average American “black” is about 23% white genetically. So the average “half black” American would actually be about 38.5% black. (Perhaps less so, as it would be reasonable to expect that “blacks” with higher percentages of white genes are more likely to marry whites for a variety of reasons).

  199. Right_On says:
    @Kylie

    which actresses were beautiful and why – beautiful as opposed to sexy

    You say he particularly loved Joan Fontaine and Olivia De Havilland – both English!

    I reckon Olivia Hussey (Zeffirelli’s Juliet, and also English) is a serious contender for most-beautiful-as-opposed-to-sexy actress. She was proud of the fact that she always wore next to no makeup.

    But you raise an interesting question: if a woman was forced to choose would she rather be seen as beautiful or sexy? Reminds me of the old line: “The perfect woman would be a cook in the kitchen, a lady in the parlor, and a whore in the bedroom.” To which some wag replied: “My perfect woman is a whore in the kitchen, a whore in the parlor, and a whore in the bedroom. We can always buy a takeout.”

    • Agree: Curle
  200. @Steve Sailer

    Rebecca Hall at her best looks kind of like Liv Tyler, who is not much of an actress but whose beauty just lit up the screen in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

    Bruh.

    Liv suspended my disbelief just fine in LOTR:

    Though, Howard Shore’s magnificent score does help quite a bit.

  201. @Dr. Krieger

    I love lanky women with long arms and a long neck.

    Here are two things you should like.

  202. @R.G. Camara

    Her race is never mentioned, despite the fact that both shows did use race as points of awkward humor (e.g. the famous “Diversity Day” episode of The Office).

    This is not literally true. When Rashida first met Michael Scott on The Office, he told her that she looked exotic and asked if her father was a GI.

    Another possibility for an actress would be Maya Rudolph.

    • Replies: @Lloyd1927
  203. Lloyd1927 says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    Well, Latinos and Arabs don’t even have to look white in order to be called “white.”

    People who look white, identify as white, and conduct themselves as white ARE white.

  204. Lloyd1927 says:
    @ScarletNumber

    “Michael Scott” made the “exotic” remark as a kind of insider joke since Rashida’s status as Quincy Jones’ daughter was well known.

  205. @Expletive Deleted

    Merle Oberon was Anglo-Indian. Vivian Leigh was likely a little bit Afghan.

  206. Anonymous[331] • Disclaimer says:
    @ArthurBiggs

    Her hair is natural, and unremarkable.. In early childhood photos with her sister Kidada, Kidada has a more African hair texture, while Rashida’s hair looks much the same as it does now. White-looking like the rest of her. The sisters are a bit over 30% black.

    She’s definitely played explicitly black (mixed race) characters at least a couple of times, most recently in that abortion of a sitcom, Black-ish.

    • Replies: @Lloyd1927
  207. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Kate Beckinsale’s great-great-grandfather was Burmese.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  208. Anonymous[165] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    Hailee Steinfeld (of the 2010 True Grit) is another one.

    She’s an octoroon.

    Not quite. Her maternal grandfather was half black and half Filipino.

  209. Alfa158 says:
    @Thomm

    LOL. You just linked to your own comment.
    How about a list of links to the comments in which the commenters wrote what you claimed they wrote?

    One of the amusing things about Progs is the way they assume everyone else has to be even dimmer than they are, so they can throw anything out there without being called on it. Writing Tiny Duck content for his purpose of being amusing is one thing, but writing it un-ironically is sad.

  210. Jack D says:
    @Peter D. Bredon

    There was zero crypsis going on. In those days it was completely normal for immigrants to want to assimilate as much as possible and adopt American names. So Wilhelm Meier became William Mayer (“Call me Bill”). I suppose if he had stayed Wilhelm Meier you would complain about his stubborn refusal to assimilate.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
  211. AceDeuce says:
    @R.G. Camara

    Fun fact. Of the nine tracks on Thriller, four were written by White people.

  212. Jack D says:
    @James J O'Meara

    A famous case is that of Sandra Laing in S. Africa (google her):

    She was born of white Afrikaner parents but almost all Afrikaner’s have some African genes stemming back from the early days of white settlement when white females were in short supply and every once in a while two white Afrikaners will have a black “throwback” baby.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  213. Jack D says:
    @prosa123

    In what universe could Tessa Thompson “pass” for white?

    In the land of the blind perhaps?

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
  214. Curle says:
    @R.G. Camara

    “ even non-music folks thinks its the greatest album of all time and a cultural event”

    That should be especially non-music folks think it’s the greatest album of all time. Music folks think it was a good dance-pop album with little soul and not much emotional resonance. I’d venture the percent of people who own the album and haven’t played it in ten years is reasonably high in comparison to The Beatles.

    Jackson’s music got boring quickly which is why his follow up albums were decent selling but artistic bombs. Not only wasn’t Jackson an equal of the Beatles he wasn’t even an equal of Stevie Wonder.

  215. @Colin Wright

    Well, they’ve got enough corporate support to gasp along for some time. Nothing new or exciting is being created, though. And there’s always “papering the house.”

    I don’t go to ballet but a friend does, and he tells me that mediocre blacks are being promoted in the big American companies. So that’s gone, too. There’s always Russia.

  216. @Wilkey

    She’s pretty. No more.

    Rebecca Hall is very pretty, Negga has an actressy appeal, and I agree with your comment about the guys on comment lines who pass judgement on actress’s looks.

    This girl is lovely. She’s either half or one-quarter Kenyan:

  217. @Anonymous

    Kate Beckinsale’s great-great-grandfather was Burmese.

    Kate Beckinsale is three, maybe four magnitudes of order hotter than Danerys Targaryen:

  218. @Jack D

    In Hollywood, where guns go off, kill people, and no one gets arrested.

  219. @Bardon Kaldian

    As Schopenhauer said of the German nationalists that were starting up in his day… someone must have no personal qualities to be “proud” of something he shares with millions of others.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
  220. @Thomm

    ‘Well, a large number of the WN commenters here have very openly said that for them, having sex with a mulatto woman is worse than having sex with a white men…’

    That’s a bizarre statement. I’ve never heard anyone here say anything like that. Certainly ‘a large number’ haven’t.

  221. @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    An honest question (my teeth are a mess, note the name): would it be better if she were snaggle-toothed? Judging from the photos, the jaw is only noticeable from some angles, but crooked teeth are always on display.

  222. Anonymous[387] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    every once in a while two white Afrikaners will have a black “throwback” baby

    Sandra Laing (who smartly refuses to take a DNA test, despite giving interviews and participating in documentaries on the topic) is the only example that ever gets brought up. There are some 3 million Afrikaners, all of them partially non-white, with some of them even having more recent non-white ancestry from Coloured people who managed to pass… Where are all the other visibly mulatto-looking ones? The press would eat up any such story, especially one from South Africa.

    Also, less than half of Afrikaners’ non-white ancestry is African, which makes the idea of someone as African looking as Sandra being Mr Laing’s biological child even less plausible.

    South and East Asians contribute cumulatively to an average of 2.6% of the Afrikaner ancestry (53.2 out of 2048 ancestors 11 generations ago). Elphick and Shell [32] noted that European men more often mixed with Asian and locally born slaves than African and Malagasy women. Although many other additional factors might have played a role in the resultant current day Afrikaner admixture fractions, the genetic admixture fractions of South and East Asians were higher in current-day Afrikaners than Khoe-San fractions (1.3%) and West/East African fractions (0.8%) and slightly higher than the combined African fractions (2.1%). South Asian contributions outweigh East Asian contributions

    Never see any such examples from other similarly mixed populations either (Portuguese, Southern US whites, white Latin Americans etc), even though it would be a super easy way to get on TV or into the papers, or go viral or whatever. Comparatively unremarkable stories about biracial siblings of dramatically different shades are always doing the rounds.

    • Replies: @HA
  223. @Jack D

    “In those days it was completely normal for immigrants to want to assimilate as much as possible and adopt American names. ”

    Normal: Santino “Sonny” Corleone

    Not normal: Ofilia/Ofelia “Elma/Alma Marie”/Maria “Chibie” Oliete/Ollright; no part of which, other than Maria, is any attempt sound “American.” Ophelia Maria Albright wasn’t available? Did they want to keep the ‘o’s for numerological reasons, like Dion(n)e Warwick? It looks more like a rap sheet than something you’d see in the front of a family Bible.

  224. @Bardon Kaldian

    ‘There is something utterly wrong with people who are obsessed with their racial heritage, as if it is something that completely defines them.

    ‘They don’t seem to possess a strong sense of the personal self.’

    I dunno. I didn’t start out worrying about my racial heritage. In fact, I was almost spectacularly oblivious of it.

    That changed. Does it follow that I had a strong sense of my personal self at some point but then lost it?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  225. Anonymous[986] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon

    taking after her mother in appearance

    Does she? Kinda, I guess. But if anything, I see more of Quincy in her than Peggy Lipton. Just, you know, white.

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
  226. @S Johnson

    Plays are often put on by troupes or companies: a regular group of acting colleagues. They aren’t cast like a big budget movie with much care put into each part to get actors who would look right in the close-ups. Most of the time, putting on a play is a financially dicey proposition, so I’m in favor of making it easier on the people trying to entertain you by not holding acting companies to super high standards of realism in casting.

    In particular, Shakespeare plays aren’t usually seen as realistic depictions of the Coast of Bohemia or whatever.

  227. @prosa123

    Some Southern states didn’t actually use a one-drop rule for determining race, but I can’t recall the cutoffs they used.

  228. @International Jew

    But the Human Stain was better in the flashbacks with Wentworth Miller as the young version of Anthony Hopkins’ character.

    You don’t cast Anthony Hopkins for his ferocious dedication to verisimilitude.

    Also, Nicole Kidman didn’t make a good farmworker and Gary Sinise didn’t make a good Philip Roth alter ego.

    • Replies: @International Jew
  229. S Johnson says:
    @Steve Sailer

    The best example of the lack of realism in physiognomy in casting is ‘The Comedy of Errors’ where the lead roles are identical twins. I don’t think there are many occasions over the years where they’ve been played by twins, and a lot of the comedy has probably come from physical dissimilarities between the actors chosen.

    One of the things I liked about the Lear I saw was that the director, Michael Grandage, tended to reuse the same actors a lot, giving it the feel of a smaller theater company. So you had the big headline star (Jacobi as Lear, Jude Law as Henry V, Eddie Redmayne as Richard II), but the black actress playing Cordelia came back as the Queen in Richard II, the same guy was the Fool in Lear and Pistol in Henry V, etc.

  230. Anon[305] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Colin Kapernick
    Michelle Rodriguez
    Condolezza Rice
    Eva Longoria
    Matthew McConaughey‘s hot wife
    Adriana Lima
    Many “Latina” women are passing – ask Donald Sterling

  231. @Curle

    Susan Dey! Yes! She was beautiful.

  232. @The Wild Geese Howard

    When Steve called Hall “pretty,” I thought to myself, Well, I would have said, She’s tall, thin, and least her her shape is her own.

    But clearly, a study of her at google images shows, in contrast to the pic Steve used, that she’s had a lot of work done.

  233. @Colin Wright

    If you are curious or interested in, nothing wrong; if you are obsessed with or consider it determines, defines your being, behavior & identity regardless of your personal sense of self, then – wrong.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  234. Ralph L says:
    @Lloyd1927

    What’s less believable is that she has Steven Tyler ancestry.

  235. @R.G. Camara

    I’ve always liked girls with a slightly predatory jawline.

  236. Anon55uu says:

    However silly this casting decision may be, there was a movie called Transamerica in which Felicity Huffman (Mrs William H Macy) played a pre-bottom surgery trans woman (though they probably were not quite called that yet in 2005). She won a Golden Globe. The whole thing was completely bizarre.

  237. @Paperback Writer

    You should see TV. There’s a new adaptation of H.E. Bates’ The Darling Buds Of May, set in early 1950s Kent, in which the opening story is that the Larkins’ beautiful and slutty 17 year old daughter Mariette thinks she’s pregnant, and doesn’t know who the father is.

    Enter an unworldly, diffident tax inspector (the family live completely “off the books”), Cedric Charlton, played in the 1991 adaptation by Philip Franks, seen as a natural mug and potential “father” for Mariette’s baby.

    In the woke 2021 version this is our shy, naive, natural-mug tax accountant of the early 1950s.

    • Replies: @Obstinate Cymric
  238. Ian Smith says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I agree to a point. But racial pride is far healthier than the sickly masochism that so many white people have now.

  239. @Obstinate Cymric

    Just in time for COP26, here’s the cast of Glasgow’s Tron Theatre production of The Tempest.

    https://www.tron.co.uk/shows/the-tempest/

    “Working with a cast of eleven Scottish-based female/female identifying actors, this movement-based version of The Tempest, being staged during the COP26 summit, capitalises on the extraordinary atmosphere of the Tron’s stripped-back main auditorium. In a play about the exploitation of male power and greed and the colonisation of other lands and their indigenous inhabitants, the exclusively female voice subverts the interpretation, bringing a new energy and nuance to the language.”

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  240. Anonymous[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @S Johnson

    The show never explains her full ethnicity but makes a joke out of her ambiguous features by suggesting she’s mixed:

    Karen’s ethnicity is deliberately made ambiguous and turned into a sort of running joke. The Italian ancestry implied by her last name is confirmed in “The Merger.” But prior to that in the same episode, Dwight suggests that she may be Filipino. She is revealed to be able to speak French (“Grief Counseling”) and Chinese (Deleted scene from “Gay Witch Hunt”).

    https://characters.fandom.com/wiki/Karen_Filippelli

    Michael asks, Was your dad a G.I.? “G.I.” is a nickname for a United States soldier. Michael observes Karen’s apparent mixed ethnicity and implies that Karen’s father served in an exotic location and fathered a child with a local woman.

    https://theoffice.fandom.com/wiki/The_Merger

  241. @Steve Sailer

    Well, yeah. The best scenes were the young-Coleman ones.

  242. Wilkey says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Most of the time, putting on a play is a financially dicey proposition, so I’m in favor of making it easier on the people trying to entertain you by not holding acting companies to super high standards of realism in casting.

    I think very few theaters these days have permanent troupes, especially not large theatres. They hold auditions for each individual play. Many do like to reuse the same actors, to keep the good ones in the business and working with their theater. Ceteris paribus, as with any other line of work, you’re going to use the people you’ve had good luck with before. Even Christopher Nolan reuses the same actors again and again.

    I doubt finances are the issue. I’ve head stories of community theaters paying black actors to perform roles that white actors would do for free. Those would tend to be roles where a black actor was expected or required. Despite stereotypes, I would guess that whites are far more likely to be in to theater as either a profession or a hobby than blacks are.

    The supply of good, trained black actors isn’t as high as the “equity” people would have us believe. It requires training and experience, often from an early age, and frequently involves a college degree. That favors people raised in stable families with good incomes.

    There are legitimate reasons to cast black actors in white roles. A theater may want to keep a black actor busy for times when they need him for a black role. You can’t just cast him him in “Big River” and then tell him you’ll see him again in four years, when you do “To Kill a Mockingbird.’” Maybe you can in NY or LA or Chicago, but not in many smaller cities.

    But a lot of it is just plain social and political pressure, plus the leftist inclinations of many directors. To the extent that finances are the issue, it’s probably the government or other benefactors pressuring them to be more diverse. I suspect the only reason we don’t see more blacks than we already do is that the supply of good black actors just isn’t there. Even with the same training, I think it’s something that whites just tend to be better at. All the people who have no problem with the NBA being 95% black or spelling bee winners being 105% Indian will call that racist, but there you have it.

    Movies are different. You don’t (and shouldn’t) generally see black actors in white roles for the same reason you don’t see movie actors pretending to butter toast or drive a car or hopping on non-existent trains. Movies are generally expected to be realistic, and it’s rather disorienting when they aren’t.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  243. TWS says:

    Sort of current day and germane to the conversation is ‘The Earth Abides”. It is a post apocalypse plague novel. One of the characters is a woman who is passing. The protagonist hooks up with her and recognizes that she is passing by the quick of her nails.

    The entire family of my mom’s best friend was passing. They were native and claimed to be French Canadian. My grandparents were from the res and I asked them if they knew the family was passing. They laughed and said of course.

  244. I made it about ten seconds into the trailer. Neither woman could ever pass, and one couldn’t even pass for White over the telephone.

  245. Yngvar says:

    Ms. Ewing looks like a burn victim. She could play a proud survivor of an acid attack in the world metropol London; ” — I used to be black you now, before… Boris Johnson and all that.”

  246. “Other responses pointed to the ways that racial categories continue to shape our collective thinking….That so much of the discussion circulated around Thompson’s and Negga’s ability to successfully pass as white felt surreal, a return to a type of racial scrutiny that seems antithetical to the project of both the book and its adaptation.”

    Non sequitur, dishonesty, racism and hypocrisy alerts! An affirmative action hire, whose job it is to obsess about race, is complaining about people talking about race, regarding a race-obsessed movie?

  247. Lloyd1927 says:
    @R.G. Camara

    Rebecca Hall confirmed her whiteness back in 2010:

    Does Hall identify herself as black? She bursts out laughing, and when she does her features scrunch into a lovely, messy abstract. “Heeeheee. It is quite funny. No, you could not get more white and middle class and English than me.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/jun/12/rebecca-hall-interview

  248. Lloyd1927 says:
    @Franz

    Are you kidding? Blacks LOVE race-mixing. They just want to be hypocrites and pretend they’re not doing it. That’s why they are the foremost opponents of multiracial and mixed-race identities as well as supporters of the “one drop” myth. They want to marry the offspring of their white “enemy” while pretending that they are all the same “race.”

    • Replies: @Franz
  249. @The Alarmist

    Same here. Actually I first thought someone died, but then I remembered how many people here like to bring up trannies whenever possible. So I figured it was referencing the slang term for sufficiently looking like someone of the opposite sex.

    Didn’t even cross my mind that it would be about being black and looking white. Is it also used the opposite way, for instance Rachel Dolezal or Talcum X?

  250. HA says:
    @Anonymous

    “People always say this, and then “back it up” with a single alleged example who not only didn’t ace any paternity tests,…”

    Fine — here’s another one. Are we all happy now?

    No one said it was common and it would be downright near impossible in, say, early 20th century Sweden, for example. But can two parents who are Creole or Cuban or Dominican — etc. — and who can pass for white produce a darker child? Yes, they apparently can.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @3g4me
  251. @Bardon Kaldian

    ‘If you are curious or interested in, nothing wrong; if you are obsessed with or consider it determines, defines your being, behavior & identity regardless of your personal sense of self, then – wrong.’

    That depends. If the threat you face is real enough, perhaps being ‘obsessed by it’ is healthy.

    For example, if we were Muscovites, and this were November 1941 instead of 2021, perhaps being ‘obsessed’ by the impending German threat would be a good idea rather than a mental pathology.

    As it happens, I dearly wish all this were still at the point where I felt it could be safely disregarded. Unfortunately, that’s no longer the case. I should be doing more, not less. I’m insufficiently ‘obsessed.’

  252. I’ve known a couple of WM/BF couples, where the women were West Indian and Sub Saharan African. One had children who were pretty dark, most people would say they were black.

    The other couple’s child is still a baby and cafe-au-lait. Do they get darker as they grow?

  253. Jack D says:
    @Wilkey

    You don’t (and shouldn’t) generally see black actors in white roles ….. Movies are generally expected to be realistic, and it’s rather disorienting when they aren’t.

    Sorry, buddy, that train left the station a while ago. When it comes to a choice between realism and blackety black blackism, blackety black blackism wins every time.

    • Replies: @Anonyone
  254. @Steve Sailer

    Melanie Sykes is a bit Indian

    But she still remembers the taunts and ridicule she suffered as a child just because of the colour of her skin. The 28-year-old model from Manchester has an Anglo-Indian mother and had to endure cruel racial taunts at school. “I used to get called Paki and Coon and Nigger,” she says, talking about her days as a mixed-race child growing up in a white working-class village.

    “I remember the summer holidays well,” she says. “I never used to go out into the sun, because I didn’t want to get darker.” Mel no longer has any hang-ups about her background.
    “People have never picked up on the the fact that I am Asian,” she says, filling the room with her distinctive broad accent. “Some people think I must be half Oriental or Thai because of the way I look, but no one ever thinks I am Anglo-Indian.”

    “My nana and grandad love talking about their lives in India. They still have an Indian accent and they very rarely eat English food.
    “They had a middle-class lifestyle over there. They are Catholic Anglo-Indians and it was a charmed life. My nana was a lady of leisure and it was only when she came to England that she needed to work

    No, I didn’t bring this up as an excuse to link to acres and acres of lingerie photos. How very dare you!
    Purely in the interests of scientific inquiry.

  255. @S. Anonyia

    Someone who may have passed? Varina Davis, the First Lady of the Confederacy.

    Do you honestly think old Jeff Davis would have married a “mulatress”?

    I’m more than skeptical.

    The Rhinelander lady, whose name was Alice Jones, was definitely part-black. Her English-born father was part West Indian. I’ve seen pics of him & he is an uncanny mix of British and black. The parents met “in service” and the mother never denied her husband was “colored” and didn’t care.

    In the US their other daughters married black men.

    Back down South, each state had its own laws but even so, they all recognized that at some point, it got ridiculous and someone who was 31/32nd parts white was white. In other cases it was 7/8ths. In Louisiana, Homer Plessy was “of color.”

    Then, Mildred Loving of the famous case fame (played by Ruth Negga) always considered herself Rapahannock Indian.

    As Bob Grant used to say, “It’s sick out there, and getting sicker.”

  256. @Steve Sailer

    Plays are often put on by troupes or companies: a regular group of acting colleagues.

    Where in the English-speaking world does this happen? I can’t think of anywhere except Chicago’s Steppenwolf, and I don’t think they’ve had a real troupe for years. Maybe I’m wrong. I’m thinking of the Gary Sinise days.*

    About the RSC, they don’t have a troupe. They employ actors at will. And increasingly, they are black. Here’s your 2021 Beatrice:

    https://cdn2.rsc.org.uk/sitefinity/images/people/actors/akiya-henry.tmb-img-912.jpg?sfvrsn=8dcbb221_1

    1967:

    Opera is the same.

    Ballet companies and symphony orchestras have genuine companies, for obvious reasons – you can’t do that kind of work with freelancers.

    *Sinise has walked a very fine line of patriotic American/actor for years. He’s avoided cancellation. We’ll see… his name is still here:

    https://www.steppenwolf.org/ensemble/member-pages/gary--sinise/

  257. HA says:
    @Anonymous

    “Never see any such examples from other similarly mixed populations either (Portuguese, Southern US whites, white Latin Americans etc), even though it would be a super easy way to get on TV or into the papers, or go viral or whatever.”

    Knowing that the overwhelming response will be — for understandable reasons — that mom is a cheating whore? Yeah, sure, let’s go viral with that.

    The more likely response, as I see it, is that the kid in such a situation would be doused with every bleacher, lightener and hair straightener available to them — maybe until the skin and hair fell completely off, at which point the parents might well say “Actually, that works too. Mission accomplished.”

    Flight from white is a recent thing, and a reversal from what earlier generations went through. In Sandra Laing’s case, it was simply well past the point of trying to cover it up (note her brother is also clearly African, so if the mom in the small town where they lived was stepping out, she did it more than once without anyone saying anything public). I’m not vouching for her mother, but I can certainly understand why going viral wasn’t the biggest concern in past generations or why someone would want to avoid pointing fingers at the darker kid and note that he or she looks a whole lot more like the grandpa who was from the islands than either of the parents — and then snicker away humming a few bars of “Haitian Divorce”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  258. anon[109] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    But at least we know now not to trust RGC’s opinions on music as well as sex.

    The guy has to be gay to formulate that opinion

    • Replies: @Curle
  259. @Obstinate Cymric

    The Anglosphere self-destructs.

    David Copperfield, 1970

    2019

  260. @James J O'Meara

    I think Carrie Coon read for the part?

  261. @Anonymous

    Her sister is somewhat more black looking,and yes,less attractive,than Rashida.
    The sister fell in love with a well known entertainer. They talked about marriage.
    One day he was shot. She was at his bedside when he died.
    His name? Tupac Shakur.
    And now you know…the rest of the story!

  262. @Jonathan Mason

    “She should be thankful that at least she is not Irish.”

    Indeed. It was Grace Kelly’s biggest regret.

    BTW you were fabulous in that Rocky Horror revival!

  263. Anonyone says:
    @Jack D

    Bridgerton: “Creator Chris Van Dusen was inspired by historical debate over the 1940s African ancestry claims of Queen Charlotte…to base the show in an alternative history in which Queen Charlotte’s mixed race heritage was not only well-established but was transformative for Black people and other people of color in England.”

    In alternate history Queen Charlotte’s reign was so transformative that it immediately boosted black IQ by 20 points. What an amazing queen she was.

    Bridgerton may be a popular show, but on an intellectual scale it’s somewhere down there with “Keeping Up With the Kardashians,” and I suspect has much the same audience.

  264. Curle says:
    @anon

    Three indisputable beauties in their youthful prime and then a young Rebecca Hall. Pretty? Yes. Top ranked beauty?

  265. @Hypnotoad666

    As an aside, the average American “black” is about 23% white genetically.

    That’s an average. Plus, I think it’s a self report from 23 and me, which became megaphoned. I don’t have a clue as to what the accurate percentage is.

    • Agree: 3g4me
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  266. Anonymous[571] • Disclaimer says:
    @HA

    Knowing that the overwhelming response will be — for understandable reasons — that mom is a cheating whore? Yeah, sure, let’s go viral with that.

    Flight from white is a recent thing, and a reversal from what earlier generations went through.

    When I mentioned the media I was referring to the present day situation. Millions of white kids with a bit of African ancestry are born every year. In today’s shameless times, when the Slutwalk era seems almost chaste, and where plenty of moms can be found on OnlyFans or twerking next to their child on TikTok, I really don’t see such concerns standing in people’s way to attention and money in every single one of these many cases, if they indeed exist. And they certainly would get those things, it’s basically what Sandra Laing lives off (more power to her, and I hope it’s some compensation for her tragic life).

    Also, race not existing has long been the modern religion. People literally sacrifice their children and piss on their graves for it. If these cases happen “every once in a while” surely there would’ve been at least one liberal (or now even woke) family in the bunch who would be glad to show off the “proof”. Again, we’re talking about millions and millions of people. If such cases happen “every once in a while”, or even very occasionally, there should be something, anything more than Sandra. In the media or outside of it.

    Speaking of South Africa in particular, I know it quite well, and I’ve never even seen a quadroon-like Afrikaner, let alone someone like Sandra, who looks like she’s around 50% African. There are a few here and there who look a bit woggish, which might or might not be from their mixed ancestry, but that’s about it. In the future, of course, things will be different, as taboos against interracial marriage are weakening.

    In Sandra Laing’s case, it was simply well past the point of trying to cover it up.

    But why only in Sandra’s case? There were millions of people classified as white under apartheid. Some of them were even white-looking Coloured people passing. So why is poor Sandra the only chocolate baby that ever gets metioned?

    note her brother is also clearly African, so if the mom in the small town where they lived was stepping out, she did it more than once without anyone saying anything public

    If you’re basing this on the images that show up when you google her brothers, neither the Leon or the Adrian in those images are Sandra’s brothers. The artices I see all just refer to both her brothers as white, except for a couple of articles in which Sandra herself defends her mother by saying her younger brother had fuzzy hair. Certainly the apartheid regime thought both her white. Of course, one could be somewhat ethnically ambiguous and still satisfy the apartheid government’s whiteness requirements. It was definitely no one drop rule system. Fuzzy hair on an Afrikaner is certainly rare, but wouldn’t be shocking. But there’s just no explaining away Sandra’s wholly mulatto appearance.

    As for “stepping out”, despite the expression, she could have easily cheated without ever leaving her house. Most white families had a gardener. Sure, it’s a strange situation for someone to put themselves in during apartheid, but nowhere near as unlikely as a family from a population that is on average less than 3% African having a child that looks mulatto (not quadroon, not octoroon, not ethnically ambiguous…).

    Of course if Sandra herself is actually convinced of this theory, she could always take a DNA test. She could’ve had it done as part of the documentary, or maybe to celebrate the release of the feature film. Clear her mother’s name, shut up the skeptics. Yet she hasn’t, and won’t.

    • Replies: @HA
  267. Franz says:
    @Lloyd1927

    Blacks LOVE race-mixing.

    College types, maybe. And urban white trash and urban black trash are equivalent.

    But the average working black gets disgusted by it, most especially the gals who get furious when a rich black celebrity marries a “trophy-white.”

    Don’t go by media on this. A bright black guy, Denzel Washington, knows his REAL audience very well. He knows his people better than the advertisers who ONLY race mix.

    Washington even said so openly:

    https://www.iloveoldschoolmusic.com/see-the-real-reason-denzel-refused-to-kiss-white-women-in-movies/

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Ray P
  268. Anonymous[214] • Disclaimer says:
    @HA

    That’s an interesting link, thanks. But populations that are on average heavily African (the mixed Creoles or the Dominicans) and the populations which are are only a small percentage African .are apples and oranges when it comes to this. Not at all unlikely for it to happen to a Creole or Dominican parent. But the population Laing comes from is in average less than 3% African. In such a population, very unlikely. Same goes for white Cubans, or at least white Cuban Americans, who are, from what I’ve seen, overwhelmingly less than 10% African.

    Happy? Of course. The case and how it’s often used as solid proof of quite an extraordinary claim is just a bit of a pet peeve.

    • Replies: @HA
  269. Anonymous[369] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paperback Writer

    From Wikipedia:

    According to a genome-wide study by Bryc et al. (2009), the mixed ancestry of African Americans in varying ratios came about as the result of sexual contact between West/Central Africans (more frequently females) and Europeans (more frequently males). Consequently, the 365 African Americans in their sample have a genome-wide average of 78.1% West African ancestry and 18.5% European ancestry, with large variation among individuals (ranging from 99% to 1% West African ancestry)

    According to DNA analysis led in 2006 by Penn State geneticist Mark D. Shriver, around 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5% European ancestry (equivalent to one European great-grandparent and his/her forebears), 19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25% European ancestry (equivalent to one European grandparent and his/her forebears), and 1 percent of African Americans have at least 50% European ancestry (equivalent to one European parent and his/her forebears).[13][167] According to Shriver, around 5 percent of African Americans also have at least 12.5% Native American ancestry (equivalent to one Native American great-grandparent and his/her forebears).

    Additionally, the researchers [Montinaro et al. (2014)] observed an average European ancestry of 21.9%, again with significant variation between individuals.[160]

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
  270. Anonymous[275] • Disclaimer says:
    @Franz

    That’s just sexual competition, not dislike of race mixing as such. They’re fine with it when it’s the other way around.

  271. @Anonymous

    Thanks.

    The point is: it varies. A non-trivial # of US blacks have little or no white ancestry. It seems to be concentrated. And I’ll bet that if you trace the histories of the mixed African Americans, they were house servants.

    The descendants of the ADOS field hands are quite African, and those are the ones that end up in the mug shots.

    I read that Henry Louis Gates claims that the majority of NBA basketball players have a Euro-derived Y chromosome. Too lazy to look that up.

  272. 3g4me says:
    @HA

    @258 HA: So your ‘proof’ is that a father with 30% sub-saharan ancestry, who was somehow ‘passing,’ fathered a dark child? There are people with 15-25% African DNA whose ancestry is obvious to the more discerning (check out Kidada Jones, before her skin lightening and surgery – obviously black, while her sibling Rashida passed).https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=QEDHQ1oc&id=D36DA1FD12875BAC1933D1C96D0D6075E98A40DC&thid=OIP.QEDHQ1oc7Xm4

    In your example, the father rejected the child because the child obviously inherited all of the paternal negro DNA and outed said father’s claims to be White.

    No aspect of your link ‘proves’ that two primarily White people (and that means 90% or more White) can legitimately conceive a notably darker child. There are ‘latinas’ married to Whites who claim to be White and refuse to accept DNA results that demonstrate they are 20-25% mixed. Depending on how the genetic dice roll, their children can end up looking more native than the mothers.

    Two genuinely White people will conceive legitimately White children.

    • Replies: @HA
  273. Ray P says:
    @Franz

    Was Jennifer Beals black enough when she appeared opposite Washington in Devil in a Blue Dress (1995)?

    • Replies: @Franz
  274. HA says:
    @Anonymous

    “In today’s shameless times, when the Slutwalk era seems almost chaste, and where plenty of moms can be found on OnlyFans or twerking next to their child on TikTok, I really don’t see such concerns standing in people’s way to attention and money in every single one of these many cases, if they indeed exist.”

    “Mom is a cheating whore” is still not something people seem eager to lead with, modernity notwithstanding. In fact, the kind of person who would try to go viral with something like that is precisely the kind who would be least trusted with regard to chastity. So I don’t find the “why isn’t it viral rebuttal persuasive in the least.

    “If you’re basing this on the images that show up when you google her brothers, neither the Leon or the Adrian in those images are Sandra’s brothers.”

    I’m going with the picture in Razib Khan’s write up, and the baby held by Liang’s mother. Although paler than sandra, the hair is, to me, a dead giveaway. It doesn’t shock me, but it does say there’s more African to that family than just “Afrikaan”.

    I’m not seeing a picture of any of the grandparents. I think that would be helpful, and maybe a paternity test on either side of that generation would say something more.

    “Clear her mother’s name, shut up the skeptics”

    If someone called my mother a cheating whore and harangued me to prove that she isn’t, I wouldn’t go out of my way to do anything that suggests my mother’s behavior warrants skepticism in the first place, or that she needs to have her name “cleared”.

    I’m not saying there’s far more to this than meets the eye, so to speak, and maybe Mrs. Liang did have a more active social life than was once assumed. But I don’t find this lack of viral exposure probative in any way.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  275. HA says:
    @3g4me

    “Two genuinely White people will conceive legitimately White children.”

    Read what I said, which was that two people who can “pass for white” (and later stipulated that I was thinking primarily of Creole, mixed, Dominican, etc. communities where passing is an issue to begin with) can have a child that is not going to be able to do that as effectively. I’m not trying to “prove” anything, apart from noting that based on what I’ve seen, in the view of most geneticists who have studied the matter the answer so far is “not likely, but hypothetically possible”. Khan mentioned his view that blackness is recessive, for whatever that’s worth.

    I have no idea what “legitimately White” means, and regardless of what you mean by that, I’m puzzled why you would think that I or anyone else would find that relevant.

  276. HA says:
    @Anonymous

    “But populations that are on average heavily African (the mixed Creoles or the Dominicans) and the populations which are are only a small percentage African .are apples and oranges when it comes to this. Not at all unlikely for it to happen to a Creole or Dominican parent. But the population Laing comes from is in average less than 3% African.”

    That’s a broad average, and in apartheid-era South Africa, an issue fraught with, well, side issues. I’m curious why no one has asked for photographs of the grandparents or gread grandparents (assuming one or the other parents weren’t themselves illegitimate or adopted). THAT might help clarify things. Given two fuzzy-haired children in the family, there is more African heritage here than is on display with the 97% majority.

    Or maybe it’s Liang’s mother that should be the subject of the story, and not just whether or not she had sex with some other man. Maybe SHE is the real anomaly, in that she’s a lot paler than others in her family, and whatever (presumably recessive) genes caused that were not something she passed on to her children. Again, some better understanding of her family tree (not to mention the father, however “plain-vanilla-white-guy” vibes he gives off).

    A lot could be happening, but we both agree this can happen with Creoles and Dominicans and that 3% of South Africa that is mixed. That’s good enough for me — I’m not heavily invested in the particulars of Liang’s story one way or the other because even if she had some other father, it wouldn’t change the point about Creoles and Dominicans and so forth.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  277. Franz says:
    @Ray P

    Was Jennifer Beals black enough when she appeared opposite Washington in Devil in a Blue Dress (1995)?

    Jennifer Beals was black enough to win the NAACP Image Award for Outstanding Actress in a Motion Picture in 1983. Her daddy was black.

    Washington didn’t have to think that one over.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  278. @Franz

    Jennifer Beals can play black or white. I believe Devil in a Blue Dress had something to do with passing, so she was a good choice for the role.

  279. Anonymous[208] • Disclaimer says:
    @HA

    “Mom is a cheating whore” is still not something people seem eager to lead with, modernity notwithstanding. In fact, the kind of person who would try to go viral with something like that is precisely the kind who would be least trusted with regard to chastity. So I don’t find the “why isn’t it viral rebuttal persuasive in the least.

    I see your point, though I can think of quite a few types of moms who couldn’t care less about some evil conservatives (i.e. the people who would allow themselves to commit wrongthink and doubt their story) slut shaming them, if it means they can show off that they too have a cool brown baby like Brangelina, and their stunning and brave Benetton family can be praised far and wide for fighting against racism and being a symbol of the future. Still, the media bit was just an aside to the wider point, which was that I’ve never seen such a family or heard of an actual case like that anywhere in those places where there are lots of mostly white people with a tiny bit of black ancestry.

    Although paler than sandra, the hair is, to me, a dead giveaway. It doesn’t shock me, but it does say there’s more African to that family than just “Afrikaan”.

    Of course there’s something African to them, almost all Afrikaners have a tiny bit of African ancestry, mostly Khoi, but study after study has shown it to be very tiny indeed – a bit over 2% on average. A single “throwback” trait wouldn’t be so strange, e.g. fuzzy hair. But Sandra herself exhibits many African traits – about as many as you’d expect from somebody who is by ancestry 40-50% black. What is the likelihood of that? Unless Afrikaners are practicing infanticide on a mass scale it’s apparently very low since people like her don’t really exist in the Afrikaner population. So, I’d say both of these unlikely scenarios are still more probable than Sandra being legitimate:

    1. the brother is legitimate and has a single visible throwback trait, rare but not bizarre for a population like the Afrikaners, but Sandra (whose phenotype is utterly bizarre for their population) is still illegitimate

    2. Sandra and the brother are both illegitimate, products of an affair with a Coloured (mixed race) man. I say Coloured and not black because of how the brother looks. Not a lot of them in the Laings’ neck of the woods, but there are some around (1.3% of the population).

    Apparently there would be lots of black servants and labourers around their home and store during the day. So the opportunities for infidelity were there. Or maybe it could have been rape.

    A 3rd possibility is the one you mention – that they really are both legitimate, but their family isn’t an ordinary Afrikaner family. That one of the parents was Coloured and “passing”, or one of the grandparents (anything further back than that and we’re back in implausible territory). I’ve always assumed that anything “suspicious” in their pasts or their genealogies would’ve come out with all the court proceedings and the decades of publicity, but who knows, maybe the “passer” was just extremely successful at covering their tracks.

    It really is an incredibly tragic story. And her brothers sound like real assholes.

    Her two brothers, who have prospered in the white world, are so ashamed of their sister that they refuse to see her or speak to her.

    In March, her brothers sent a letter to Ms. Laing, 44, who was facing eviction here, and promised to help her buy food. But the money would come at an almost unspeakable cost.

    She would receive their help, the letter said, only if she vowed never to see her 79-year-old mother again and only if she promised to keep quiet about her family history. At the time she heard from her brothers, she had managed to visit her mother twice.

    ”I hoped my brothers would come looking for me,” she said wistfully. ”I still hope they will come.”

    She falls silent, maybe because she knows they will never come looking.

    The siblings will probably never know whether their family had a black ancestor somewhere, as some suspect, or whether their mother had an affair with a black man, as others believe.

    I’m curious why no one has asked for photographs of the grandparents or gread grandparents (assuming one or the other parents weren’t themselves illegitimate or adopted).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  280. Anonymous[207] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Sorry, messed up that last blockquote. The internal blockquote shouldn’t be there, but too late now for me to delete it.

  281. Anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:
    @HA

    If someone called my mother a cheating whore and harangued me to prove that she isn’t, I wouldn’t go out of my way to do anything that suggests my mother’s behavior warrants skepticism in the first place, or that she needs to have her name “cleared”.

    The thing is, most everyone in South Africa (except those who push it for political reasons, who at the very least claim to believe Sandra was legitimate) can’t really be pushed any further in the direction of believing Sandra wasn’t really a Laing , no matter what Sandra does. For the simple reason that they know Afrikaners and see them all the time, and know that aren’t actually Afrikaner Sandras running around. So they’ll believe the mother was a cheater regardless, on the rare occasion they think of the story. But I wasn’t suggesting that she publicly announces she’s taking a test. Surely, when the movie and a couple of documentaries about her were made she had the opportunity to discreetly take the test, maybe even have the results processed outside of SA. I can’t imagine the documentary makers wouldn’t suggest it. Who knows, maybe she did have it done, and has chosen not to include the results in the film. Not saying avoiding the test is, by itself, proof of anything other than that she herself is not as convinced of her legitimacy as she claims.

  282. Anonymous[103] • Disclaimer says:
    @HA

    That’s a broad average, and in apartheid-era South Africa, an issue fraught with, well, side issues.

    Yeah, openly talking about Afrikaners’ non-white ancestry was frowned upon during apartheid, but even then anyone familiar with SA’s colonial history did know about it. The records are all there. There were some suspicions that there might be more such ancestry than recorded (due to unrecorded frontier marriages and “marriages”), but several quality studies have been done in the last decade or so, and shown that the levels of admixture are indeed low.

    Sure, it’s the broad average, but looking into it further IMO still doesn’t make the Laing story plausible, if the Laings really were just ordinary Afrikaners.

    Amongst the 77 Afrikaners investigated, 6.5% had above 10% non-European admixture, 27.3% between 5 and 10%, 59.7% between 1 and 5% and 6.5% below 1%.

    Again, this is for all non-white admixture. African admixture is less than half. Most of it is Indian and Malay.

    From Hollfelder et al. (2020)

    Although many other additional factors might have played a role in the resultant current-day Afrikaner admixture fractions, the genetic admixture fractions of South and East Asians were higher in current-day Afrikaners than Khoe-San fractions (1.3%) and West/East African fractions (0.8%) and slightly higher than the combined African fractions (2.1%).

    a high number of Afrikaners had no West/East African admixture

    I’m curious why no one has asked for photographs of the grandparents or gread grandparents (assuming one or the other parents weren’t themselves illegitimate or adopted).

    I assumed there was no recent non-white ancestry, as Afrikaners’ genealogy is well recorded, and it shouldn’t be too difficult to spot that kind of thing, and I imagine the Laings’ would have been carefully looked at. I I haven’t seen any reference to their ancestry being any different to your run of the mill Afrikaner. Of course, if it is different, it’s a whole different story, and far less remarkable than the version usually presented in the media.

    I’m not heavily invested in the particulars of Liang’s story one way or the other because even if she had some other father, it wouldn’t change the point about Creoles and Dominicans and so forth.

    Oh, sure, definitely doesn’t change that point. It’s just the way the Laing story is often presented in the media (with some outlets peddling outright lies about the case) that annoys me. And being familiar with Afrikaners, it ‘s always a bit weird to me how the poor woman has in the international public consciousness become the face of a phenomenon that doesn’t really exist (for the time being) among them.

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