The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
"Parasite"
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Parasite is an acclaimed film by the most popular movie director in South Korea, Bong Joon-ho, who has made The Host and Snowpiercer.

The trailer makes it appear to be a horror movie, but it’s not. This movie is about a very poor but close family of four in Seoul. The son fakes his way into a job tutoring the heiress of a very rich family, and then gets his sister hired under a pseudonym as an acclaimed art therapist for the young scion. They plot to get the chauffeur and housekeeper fired and their mom and dad hired in their places.

About halfway through there is a fun plot twist and then a fair amount of violence at the end (about as much as Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, but less entertaining).

Bong is a proficient director, but I didn’t like his Snowpiercer much at all and only liked this one a little more. None of the characters, poor or rich, seemed all that sympathetic.

One problem with watching a movie about class conflict in a foreign language is that I can’t tell from the accents what is going on in terms of class. It’s more fun to watch an English movie about class, such as My Fair Lady, because I can at least rank the accents by class from high to low. But I don’t have a hint about Korean accents.

The family lives in a terrible basement apartment, acts prole, and takes on bad jobs like folding pizza boxes. But then the son and daughter show up at a CEO’s mansion and immediately dazzle the rich mom with their supposedly American-educated expertise in child development. I presume they adopt different accents when talking to the rich folk than they use in their squalid home, but I can’t tell that from watching the movie.

But how did they learn those prestigious accents? Moreover, if they can speak in educated accents, why can’t they use them to get better jobs than folding pizza boxes, such as in sales? I imagine Koreans can fill in a more of the gaps, but for a clueless roundeye like me, it was a pretty thin experience. For all I know, Parasite might be the most sophisticated movie ever made about class in South Korea, but I didn’t learn anything from it about class in Korea other than that Koreans thinks American stuff is cool.

There are a few laughs in the movie, such as when the daughter dazzles the rich Korean lady by mentioning her cutting edge education in art therapy at Illinois State. I presume a lot of Korean references went over my head.

Anyway, Koreans and critics love Bong’s movies.

 
Hide 152 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. I had the same feeling. The “proles” in the movie have obviously relatively high IQ and good manners, why can’t they find a normal job ? It does not make any sense.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    The “proles” in the movie have obviously relatively high IQ and good manners, why can’t they find a normal job ?
     
    S. Korea has over-abundance of college-educated people. Too many graduates, too few white collar jobs. This account for high suicide rates in a society obsessed with status and shame. Those with credentials want good jobs, but there are limited amount. Also, women in the work force reduced the number of such jobs for men.

    This is why so many want to leave the country. And many choose not to work than work at 'dirty' jobs that are given to foreign workers. And many can't marry because college-educated women have higher expectations and would rather lose themselves in soap opera fantasy than face reality.
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    "better jobs than folding pizza boxes"

    Try being a food server at an IHOP which is located in an area that is populated by a certain demographic. Folding pizza boxes at a Korean pizzeria would be nirvana in comparison.

    "why can't they find a normal job?"

    Folding pizza boxes and IHOP are normal jobs in our intersectional-libertarian wonderland.
    , @SaneClownPosse
    It's fiction. Actors speak lines, and do things, that don't make sense, to move a story towards a contrived conclusion. As long as a large enough audience pays to see the film, it's all good.

    The film's purpose may be to make the mid to upper middle class anxious, as criminals may appear as their perception of the ideal. Not the usual low class thugs they can easily avoid in Gangnam.
  2. So, you’re relying on sub-titles? You might get something out of the intonation and facial expression if you watch it again (or a few times). Yes, clearly easier when the V/O is your native tongue or you are conversant in it.

  3. Steve- any many other anglophones – extrapolates their culture’s markers on other cultures. I don’t know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no “class difference” in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    But there are regional dialects or accents and these become a distinguishing factor, especially when the respective accent is associated with negative stereotypes like poverty. In my country at least, most people lose their regional accents when coming to live in the Big City, and hilariously regain them when talking to their moms on the phone.

    I also remember reading that young Turks in Germany are developing their own patois so that might be a thing too.

    , @Anonymous

    Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.
     
    There was a Yale study which showed white libs intentionally dumbed down their language (vocabulary) when speaking to a minority or someone they thought was a minority (NAM).

    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article222424675.html

    ...They recruited people to participate in a study where they were told to email a partner using a list of words. Sometimes the email would be about some theoretical task, or it could just be a friendly introduction.

    The catch? The person they were emailing either had a stereotypical “white” name like “Emily’ or a stereotypically “black” name like “Lakisha.”

    The researchers found that liberals were less likely to use words that signified competence and more likely to use words signifying warmth when speaking with people they thought were black. There was no such connection for conservatives.

    So why does this happen?

    Dupree says it might be a sign that white liberals “may unwittingly draw on negative stereotypes, dumbing themselves down in a likely well-meaning, “folksy” but ultimately patronizing, attempt to connect” with minorities, according to the study...
     

    , @RohadtMagyar
    No class difference? No way.

    That's certainly not true in Hungarian or German, and I doubt it is true elsewhere in CEE.

    You can tell if someone has been educated or grew up with a Buda accent in Hungarian in how they conjugate the "-ikes" verbs. That's a very distinct marker.

    Also, there is also a distinct countryside accent, often typified by dropping, for example, the "L" in a word like bolt (English: store) -- so it sound like boat.

    Hungarians like to watch dubbed (instead of subtitled movies) and when they dub, they miss out on a lot of meta-data like class or nationality.

    I've watched many a Hollywood movie with the actors speaking in various accents, standard American, lower-class Scottish and South African etc etc -- all of which signal this sort of meta-data to Anglophone audience --- and it is lost when it is dubbed all in Standard Hungarian.
    , @RohadtMagyar
    Any Hungarian speaker can hear the difference between Kate McKinnon rapping very well (phonetically) about Budapest's 8th District. The proletarian accent is distinct.



    While Admiral Horthy speaks perfect yet German-tinged Hungarian (an upper-class accent) here:

    , @syonredux

    Steve- any many other anglophones – extrapolates their culture’s markers on other cultures. I don’t know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no “class difference” in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.
     
    Didn't Russian used to have a prestige accent? I've read that Lenin, for example, spoke with a "posh" accent.
  4. Eh, class accents is a very English thing, I don’t think anyone else has that. I guess a population randomization would take care of that

    • Replies: @jim jones
    I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.
    , @Houston 1992
    I think that German and Dutch have accent differences across classes, but I agree with your point that many CE societies and Russiam don’t vary by class.
    , @Anon
    Well, in Spain and Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries of course you can tell class by accent, vocabulary, voice modulation, etc, etc. What, do you think only consumer status symbols are social class markers?
  5. @Svevlad
    Eh, class accents is a very English thing, I don't think anyone else has that. I guess a population randomization would take care of that

    I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.

    • LOL: theMann
    • Replies: @fnn
    That's how the rest of the world treats British tourists.
    , @Colin Wright
    'I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.'

    That would be reasonably accurate anyway.
    , @Amerimutt Golems
    The old comedy Keeping Up Appearances is a good parody of the silly British class system. It was quite popular in certain parts of Europe.

    Barring accent the character 'Onslow' (with cap) below looks like certain Americans, Australians and Canadians.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC-5Jw-AtaA
    , @riches
    Somewhat related:

    As a visiting foreigner last week, I particularly liked signs in shops and windows that avowed "Unruly children will be sold to the circus."
    , @Reg Cæsar

    I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.

     

    Golliwogs begin at Calais?


    http://www.arrangementsbyarrangement.com/wp-content/uploads/edd/Debussy-Golliwog-Piano-vl-cl-web-sample-5.jpg
  6. I imagine Koreans can fill in a more of the gaps, but for a clueless roundeye like me

    Give Sarah Jeong a call and ask her for advice.

    • LOL: Jim bob Lassiter
  7. @Svevlad
    Eh, class accents is a very English thing, I don't think anyone else has that. I guess a population randomization would take care of that

    I think that German and Dutch have accent differences across classes, but I agree with your point that many CE societies and Russiam don’t vary by class.

    • Replies: @GermanReader2
    In my experience the clothes and the behavior are much bigger markers of class in Germany. You can also gain a lot of information (including political leaning) by the names Germans give their children.
    , @benjaminl
    As an American visiting parts of Germany and Italy, it certainly seemed to me that the working class people there seemed to have more pronounced regional accents, whereas the educated class spoke a more "standardized" national tongue.

    (Just the same as in the various regions of the U.S.A., of course)
  8. Korean doesn’t have different class accents like british received pronunciation, but it definitely has regional dialects and accents and speaking with those will identify one as a bumpkin, as even provincial elites will speak with a Seoul accent.
    Korean movies often have a hamfisted class war propaganda that it’s worse than in some Soviet movies. Combine that with formulaic plots, forgettable characters and horrid overacting and korean movies are pretty awful, unless they are about brutal vengeance, which is a major korean cultural trope, so they nail those movies.

  9. The best Korean movie I ever saw was The Handmaiden. Went into the theater determined to hate it, and was bowled over.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaiden

    Oddly enough, it is an adaptation of Fingersmith, a Western novel.

    Plenty of iSteve material resulting from the adaptation, including the Japanese elites consciously mimicking the West.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    The best Korean movie I ever saw was The Handmaiden. Went into the theater determined to hate it, and was bowled over.
     
    I heard the girl-on-girl scenes in this were up there with Bound and Blue is the Warmest Color.
  10. @Bardon Kaldian
    Steve- any many other anglophones - extrapolates their culture's markers on other cultures. I don't know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no "class difference" in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.

    But there are regional dialects or accents and these become a distinguishing factor, especially when the respective accent is associated with negative stereotypes like poverty. In my country at least, most people lose their regional accents when coming to live in the Big City, and hilariously regain them when talking to their moms on the phone.

    I also remember reading that young Turks in Germany are developing their own patois so that might be a thing too.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Thats not dissimilar to the US, most of the UK Australia etc. You're just describing rural cosmopolitan divide that exists everywhere.

    ( Scots dont change their accent however. )
    , @SunBakedSuburb
    Perhaps you can help me Romanian: It is well known by now that the governor of California is nosferatu. He even sports a Christopher Lee-like hairdo. All that's missing is the cape. I mock him by referring to him as Dracula. In your land, would that be considered an insult to compare this Napa Valley jackass to the great Vlad the Impaler? Maybe I should call the jackass Count Yorga, in reference to the low-rent LA vampire?
  11. It’s a common trait among superficial director to attribute the same traits to low class people. Here, they are as smart and socially savvy, , ruthless and hypocritical than elite people but they are lazy. Laziness is the only specific trait.

    In the last Ken Loach, poors are extremely hard working but with average IQ and bad at making social and economic decisions.

  12. critics love Bong’s movies.

    Thanks, that’s all I need to know. I’ll definitely skip his movies.

  13. You may have brought up a genuinely interesting linguistic subject – the interplay of regional and class dialects in a number of languages
    .

    For instance, I don’t care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don. Similarly, even considering the difference in vocabularies, an uneducated Mexican could never pass as an Educated Spaniard ( or Argentinian) for any length of time. I have certainly had Spaniards fall over laughing at my Tex-Mex accent. And German has so many regional accents they morph into different languages. Korean also has a wide variety of regional accents, morphing into a separate language on Jeju Island. I suspect a Seoul Korean looks upon some of those accents as pure Hillbilly, or the Korean equivalent.

    In any case, I doubt there is any such thing as a language without some kind Class markers in it. It is just part of the Human condition, people have to have other people to look down on. On the other hand, centralized Mass Media tend to ruthlessly homogenize language. On the whole, a very interesting subject.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    I was reading somewhere about the emergence of class based accents in Britain. That they couldn't really have existed before there were schools. Before that the young nobles were tutored at home and would have the same accents as the people who surrounded them. So if you were a lord in the Highlands, or Yorkshire, or Cornwall - those are the respective accents you would have.

    It's only once the elite were schooled together that an elite accent could emerge.

    It sounds plausible, no idea if true.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    For instance, I don’t care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don.
     
    British translations of classical comedies and European farces would use Scottish accents as class markers. Or maybe they were northern, and just looked Scottish to me.

    It's a striking experience to hear Joseph Pearce discuss elevated literary and religious topics in his East End Cockney. Perhaps that's why he moved to "Amevica". Too many stifled chuckles back home.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA-CscQuHXE
    , @houston 1992
    will Siri and its equivalents cause accent convergence? I can imagine that a regional politicialn will want his kids to be able to speak with a regional accent e.g. Texas accent so that his kids can inherit his Deep State seat.
    I can see consumers demanding a Siri product that is accent regional.

    Accent management matters: Tony Blair changed his accent from RP to Estuary English to promote the facade of being a regular bloke; Thatcher took elocution lessons to shift from blue collar London Tory to RP to assure the Tory Establishment that she was one of them. W Bush probably emphasized his Texan accent when campaigning as part of his authentic spiel.
    , @European-American
    This Britannica article has some interesting general comments on dialects, mostly of the regional kind, but also of the social and generational kind:
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/dialect/Social-dialects
  14. I thought Snowpiercer was way over-rated and I’ll probably pass on this one entirely.

  15. Anonymous[175] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian
    Steve- any many other anglophones - extrapolates their culture's markers on other cultures. I don't know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no "class difference" in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.

    Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.

    There was a Yale study which showed white libs intentionally dumbed down their language (vocabulary) when speaking to a minority or someone they thought was a minority (NAM).

    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article222424675.html

    …They recruited people to participate in a study where they were told to email a partner using a list of words. Sometimes the email would be about some theoretical task, or it could just be a friendly introduction.

    The catch? The person they were emailing either had a stereotypical “white” name like “Emily’ or a stereotypically “black” name like “Lakisha.”

    The researchers found that liberals were less likely to use words that signified competence and more likely to use words signifying warmth when speaking with people they thought were black. There was no such connection for conservatives.

    So why does this happen?

    Dupree says it might be a sign that white liberals “may unwittingly draw on negative stereotypes, dumbing themselves down in a likely well-meaning, “folksy” but ultimately patronizing, attempt to connect” with minorities, according to the study…

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    This is a wide topic (and having nothing to do with Steve's review). Some languages, like German & Italian, have pronounced regional differences. But their usage has more to do with, say, insistence on regional identities than with class. I've read somewhere that Duchess (I forgot her name) who was a Venetian consciously used dialectal elements characteristic of Venice, especially when in Rome, in order to show pride in her Venetian origin. This was in the 18th C.

    Also, in the 20th C, famous Swiss psychologist C.G.Jung generally spoke Schweizerdeutsch rather than standard German. Of course he could speak standard German- but he didn't care. No class prestige there.

    Although, there are instances where class element comes into play. An acquaintance of mine, who is a Croatian who grew up in Sweden, was educated in private Swedish Catholic schools. Now, virtually all Swedes are Lutherans, but there is a small indigenous elite Catholic minority (apart from newer immigrant Poles, Chileans etc.). So, the Swedish language he learned in these schools is, so to speak, "high class" literary Swedish. And, in an instance when he parked his car wrongly, a cop- when he heard him speaking; initially, cop just tried to do his job- just let him go without a ticket, assuming that my acquaintance belonged to the "elite".
    , @J.Ross
    A function of energy levels: the white liberals in the study din feel no ways tah'd.
  16. I had to look his name up but Kim joe-woon is a better filmmaker, based on I Saw the Devil, one of the most disturbing serial killer films ever. I got the idea there was a lot more going on there in terms of Korean- centered symbolism and subtexts.

    This bong guy has disappointed since the Host more than a decade ago.

    Critics love him so much I assume he is gay or a communist, or both.

  17. @jim jones
    I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.

    That’s how the rest of the world treats British tourists.

  18. @Anonymous

    Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.
     
    There was a Yale study which showed white libs intentionally dumbed down their language (vocabulary) when speaking to a minority or someone they thought was a minority (NAM).

    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article222424675.html

    ...They recruited people to participate in a study where they were told to email a partner using a list of words. Sometimes the email would be about some theoretical task, or it could just be a friendly introduction.

    The catch? The person they were emailing either had a stereotypical “white” name like “Emily’ or a stereotypically “black” name like “Lakisha.”

    The researchers found that liberals were less likely to use words that signified competence and more likely to use words signifying warmth when speaking with people they thought were black. There was no such connection for conservatives.

    So why does this happen?

    Dupree says it might be a sign that white liberals “may unwittingly draw on negative stereotypes, dumbing themselves down in a likely well-meaning, “folksy” but ultimately patronizing, attempt to connect” with minorities, according to the study...
     

    This is a wide topic (and having nothing to do with Steve’s review). Some languages, like German & Italian, have pronounced regional differences. But their usage has more to do with, say, insistence on regional identities than with class. I’ve read somewhere that Duchess (I forgot her name) who was a Venetian consciously used dialectal elements characteristic of Venice, especially when in Rome, in order to show pride in her Venetian origin. This was in the 18th C.

    Also, in the 20th C, famous Swiss psychologist C.G.Jung generally spoke Schweizerdeutsch rather than standard German. Of course he could speak standard German- but he didn’t care. No class prestige there.

    Although, there are instances where class element comes into play. An acquaintance of mine, who is a Croatian who grew up in Sweden, was educated in private Swedish Catholic schools. Now, virtually all Swedes are Lutherans, but there is a small indigenous elite Catholic minority (apart from newer immigrant Poles, Chileans etc.). So, the Swedish language he learned in these schools is, so to speak, “high class” literary Swedish. And, in an instance when he parked his car wrongly, a cop- when he heard him speaking; initially, cop just tried to do his job- just let him go without a ticket, assuming that my acquaintance belonged to the “elite”.

  19. Try Memories of Murder and Mother from Bong. Much better. Also — not Bong — but Burning was fantastic.

    • Replies: @bobbybonilla
    Memories of Murder is fantastic, have not seen any of his other movies, but that one is so great.
  20. Pardon me, because if I had known this post was about some foreign movie, I’d not have clicked*. I just learned that you used to be a movie reviewer, so this post is understandable, but man, Steve! Are there no other movies out there to comment on? I, for one, would like to see your analysis of Fast Times at Ridgemont High, including which malls and streets in the movie you’d been in/on, and which of the actors used to go to your brother’s high school.

    ;-} OK, just giving you some shit this morning. I hope you don’t take offense. I enjoy 95% of the posts.

    .

    * I didn’t come off the “Teasers” page, though. I should load that more.

  21. I see Snowpiercer when I’m browsing Netflix and every time I think “oh that looks cool” then I remember having watched it already and found it a little boring.

    Class-imposterism is probably top-2 most interesting premises for a “drama.”

  22. I honestly loved this movie, but that was because of the soundtrack, camerawork and editing. The concept was also original, but yeah, there weren’t a lot of laughs to be had.

  23. Trump bood at world series

    Democrats like AOC ripping it up in congress

    demographic change continues

    Diversity in film getting promoted

    Black little mermaid

    Get Out and Slim and Queen domintating the box offfice

    Trump about to be impeached

    right winger racists getting deplatformed

    New York times holding white people and white supremacy accountable

    white privielge being discussed in pubic schoolss

    Dang it feels good to be progressive!

    • Replies: @SaneClownPosse
    You have to understand being impeached is not that big of a deal. Clinton was impeached and still finished his second term.

    Supposed oral sex from a female intern was considered to be more serious than the illegal war in Bosnia. The stained blue dress (and OJ's show trial) did a marvelous job of keeping Bosnia out of the news cycle.

    Maybe if they impeach Trump before 11/2020, it might affect Trump's candidacy for re-election. Might still win anyway. Who really cares about Congress?

    As we have seen, the meat sack that occupies the White House is just for show. The wars must go on. The crony kleptocracy must go on.
  24. Don’t know much about the whole business of class/accent differentials. Just from the description, this movie sounds like it’s part of an emerging new genre of horror movies that one might think about as “societal horror” — the most notable and successful versions would be things like “Get Out” and “The Purge” series. They differ in important ways from previous trends like the torture-porn “Saw” and “Hostel” series, or the demonic possession genre that weirdly became huge in a post-religious society for a while, or the good old-fashioned stalker/murderer sexual revenge thingie.

    It’s interesting to chart the different ontological perspectives in the zombie genre — “Night of the Living Dead” was America’s sixties-ish almost Zappa-esque critique of itself, “Dawn of the Dead” was about a fear of having one’s authentic cultural being get overwhelmed by shallow consumerism, and “The Walking Dead” is (or was) just a flat-out horror riff on the fear of being drowned by mass immigration.

    This “Parasite” movie sounds like it’s a riff on fear of replacement, of maybe the cultural or ontological variety.

  25. @theMann
    You may have brought up a genuinely interesting linguistic subject - the interplay of regional and class dialects in a number of languages
    .

    For instance, I don't care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don. Similarly, even considering the difference in vocabularies, an uneducated Mexican could never pass as an Educated Spaniard ( or Argentinian) for any length of time. I have certainly had Spaniards fall over laughing at my Tex-Mex accent. And German has so many regional accents they morph into different languages. Korean also has a wide variety of regional accents, morphing into a separate language on Jeju Island. I suspect a Seoul Korean looks upon some of those accents as pure Hillbilly, or the Korean equivalent.


    In any case, I doubt there is any such thing as a language without some kind Class markers in it. It is just part of the Human condition, people have to have other people to look down on. On the other hand, centralized Mass Media tend to ruthlessly homogenize language. On the whole, a very interesting subject.

    I was reading somewhere about the emergence of class based accents in Britain. That they couldn’t really have existed before there were schools. Before that the young nobles were tutored at home and would have the same accents as the people who surrounded them. So if you were a lord in the Highlands, or Yorkshire, or Cornwall – those are the respective accents you would have.

    It’s only once the elite were schooled together that an elite accent could emerge.

    It sounds plausible, no idea if true.

    • Replies: @Haole
    Once upon a time the upper class in the UK spoke french and the low class english. They werent the same people. Using french words in english is still consider high class. I ate vs I dined.
    , @songbird

    young nobles were tutored at home and would have the same accents as the people who surrounded them. So if you were a lord in the Highlands
     
    In the Highlands, I believe they practiced fosterage, as did the native Irish.

    The children of nobles would be sent out of the home at a very young age, often into the homes of people who weren't nobles but retainers or tenants. Partly, it was for their education; partly it was to build loyalty, for instance, between foster-brothers. In return, the foster family would get some benefit, like a certain number of cows.

    The practice was ancient and lasted a long time. Daniel O'Connell was actually fostered in his youth.
    , @David
    I've heard similar things about "received pronunciation" but it seems to me that within whatever accent one is raised, learning to read would have a big impact on how one speaks. I remember changing how I pronounced things once I knew how they were spelt. I stopped saying "sall" for "saw," for example.
  26. The Japanese have regional accents.

    After growing up in greater Tokyo, a friend of mine moved to Kansai (Osaka, Kyoto, Kobe, etc) for her high school when her sarariman father was sent there by his company, and her Tokyo accent and delivery stood out.

    ‘So’, I asked her after hearing the story, ‘what accent do you speak with now?’

    ‘NHK’ was the reply. Clever girl.

  27. In the USA at least, among Whites, the main class marker is if you have a strong regional accent or speak in the the generic Midlandish TV accent. If the lower, you are probably lower class, if the higher, working class. Really upper class people probably have their own accents but I don’t move in this world.

    Middle class Blacks and lower class Blacks also speak distinctly differently, but unlike with Whites there doesn’t seem to be a regional component.

    • Replies: @Sergeant Prepper

    Really upper class people probably have their own accents but I don’t move in this world.
     
    Apparently this is what a classic Boston Brahmin accent sounded like:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HwvONJXJUO4
    , @OilcanFloyd
    Middle class blacks speak like preachers, while lower class blacks speak like rappers. It sounds too general, but I think it holds pretty well.

    I can tell older blacks from the South apart from northern blacks. Charles Rangle and Clarence had/have different regional accents to my ear. Younger blacks are starting to sound the same to me, which is like rappers. I guess the ones who don't want to sound like rappers try to sound like the Carlton character from Fresh Prince.
    , @AndrewR
    There are huge regional differences in accent among US blacks. It's basically different languages.

    https://youtu.be/YMS70m-OzXo

  28. @theMann
    You may have brought up a genuinely interesting linguistic subject - the interplay of regional and class dialects in a number of languages
    .

    For instance, I don't care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don. Similarly, even considering the difference in vocabularies, an uneducated Mexican could never pass as an Educated Spaniard ( or Argentinian) for any length of time. I have certainly had Spaniards fall over laughing at my Tex-Mex accent. And German has so many regional accents they morph into different languages. Korean also has a wide variety of regional accents, morphing into a separate language on Jeju Island. I suspect a Seoul Korean looks upon some of those accents as pure Hillbilly, or the Korean equivalent.


    In any case, I doubt there is any such thing as a language without some kind Class markers in it. It is just part of the Human condition, people have to have other people to look down on. On the other hand, centralized Mass Media tend to ruthlessly homogenize language. On the whole, a very interesting subject.

    For instance, I don’t care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don.

    British translations of classical comedies and European farces would use Scottish accents as class markers. Or maybe they were northern, and just looked Scottish to me.

    It’s a striking experience to hear Joseph Pearce discuss elevated literary and religious topics in his East End Cockney. Perhaps that’s why he moved to “Amevica”. Too many stifled chuckles back home.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "British translations of classical comedies and European farces would use Scottish accents as class markers."

    At Stratford nearly all RSC Shakespeare comedy players use Birmingham/Midlands accents as the standard accent for someone who's funny because he's working class e.g. the rustics who do Pyramus and Thisbe.
    , @AndrewR
    Is that "East End Cockney" or just a personal speech impediment?
    , @Art Deco
    It’s a striking experience to hear Joseph Pearce discuss elevated literary and religious topics in his East End Cockney.

    Pretty sure he grew up in Ulster.
    , @Kolya Krassotkin
    Re: Scottish accent as low class marker

    I will never forget a translation of Lysistrata that I read, where the translator had the Spartans speak in an obvious Scottish dialect. Not knowing classical Greek, I wonder now if Aristophanes, somehow, used some linguistic nuance to distinguish them from the Athenians in the original.
  29. @Bardon Kaldian
    Steve- any many other anglophones - extrapolates their culture's markers on other cultures. I don't know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no "class difference" in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.

    No class difference? No way.

    That’s certainly not true in Hungarian or German, and I doubt it is true elsewhere in CEE.

    You can tell if someone has been educated or grew up with a Buda accent in Hungarian in how they conjugate the “-ikes” verbs. That’s a very distinct marker.

    Also, there is also a distinct countryside accent, often typified by dropping, for example, the “L” in a word like bolt (English: store) — so it sound like boat.

    Hungarians like to watch dubbed (instead of subtitled movies) and when they dub, they miss out on a lot of meta-data like class or nationality.

    I’ve watched many a Hollywood movie with the actors speaking in various accents, standard American, lower-class Scottish and South African etc etc — all of which signal this sort of meta-data to Anglophone audience — and it is lost when it is dubbed all in Standard Hungarian.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Also, there is also a distinct countryside accent, often typified by dropping, for example, the “L” in a word like bolt (English: store) — so it sound like boat.

     

    I was told-- by none other than the Joseph Pearce of the video above-- that the ultimate expression of this is in Millwall, or "Miwwwaww", of the notorious football hooligans. I replied that Brazilians do the same-- "Braziw", "Portugaw". But it's been standardized there.

    Although Rio shares the sounds of the poor, black northeast, it was long the capital, and is still the cultural capital, and Carioca has some prestige. Whereas São Paulo and even more so the mostly-white south have phonemes a bit closer to Spanish. (Which defeats the whole point of Portuguese, doesn't it?)

    Is there anywhere else in the world where the upper- and lower-class accents are closer to each other than to the middle-class's?
    , @Romanian
    The dubbing craze is catching up in Romania. We used subtitles exclusively until a few years ago. Now, they are dubbing movies for children (which is very bad for any incipient English language skills).
  30. @Bardon Kaldian
    Steve- any many other anglophones - extrapolates their culture's markers on other cultures. I don't know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no "class difference" in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.

    Any Hungarian speaker can hear the difference between Kate McKinnon rapping very well (phonetically) about Budapest’s 8th District. The proletarian accent is distinct.

    While Admiral Horthy speaks perfect yet German-tinged Hungarian (an upper-class accent) here:

  31. @Romanian
    But there are regional dialects or accents and these become a distinguishing factor, especially when the respective accent is associated with negative stereotypes like poverty. In my country at least, most people lose their regional accents when coming to live in the Big City, and hilariously regain them when talking to their moms on the phone.

    I also remember reading that young Turks in Germany are developing their own patois so that might be a thing too.

    Thats not dissimilar to the US, most of the UK Australia etc. You’re just describing rural cosmopolitan divide that exists everywhere.

    ( Scots dont change their accent however. )

  32. I see Snowpiercer as a representation of Palestinian-Jewish conflict.

    • LOL: jim jones
  33. So are you saying this is likely another Bong hit?

  34. This reminds me of that show Shameless about an alcoholic lowlife played by William H. Macy and his underclass family. They all basically live like gypsies, getting by on scams. But the problem is that all the characters are strangely articulate, clever, and well-put-together for such ostensibly lower class people. There’s not much low class about the characters other than that the show tells you they are supposed to be low class and shows them all living in a messy house. Despite all of that ridiculousness, viewers are somehow able to suspend disbelief and forget the fact that such people would probably not be lower class in real life, whether they have an alcoholic abuser for a father or not. Or perhaps it’s that shows like that only appeal to people who have little sense about class dynamics and think that class really is only about money.

  35. I think the one that used accents to code social class more was “Crazy Rich Asian.” It got a lot of flak by coding people from Hokien speaking family as speak English like rich low class Blacks. Then the high class rich speak in Mandarins. With Michelle Yeoh’s character had sob story about her not being accepted by her Mandarin speaking in-laws due to her Cantonese speaking background, and had to let her Mother-in-law raise her son.

    That’ really not how Singaporean society worked.

    • Replies: @Moses
    What I found most odd about "Crazy Rich Asians" was that not even one Singaporean character in the film sounded Singaporean. At all.

    They all sounded like they had boarded at Eton.

  36. @Reg Cæsar

    For instance, I don’t care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don.
     
    British translations of classical comedies and European farces would use Scottish accents as class markers. Or maybe they were northern, and just looked Scottish to me.

    It's a striking experience to hear Joseph Pearce discuss elevated literary and religious topics in his East End Cockney. Perhaps that's why he moved to "Amevica". Too many stifled chuckles back home.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA-CscQuHXE

    “British translations of classical comedies and European farces would use Scottish accents as class markers.”

    At Stratford nearly all RSC Shakespeare comedy players use Birmingham/Midlands accents as the standard accent for someone who’s funny because he’s working class e.g. the rustics who do Pyramus and Thisbe.

  37. @jim jones
    I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.

    ‘I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.’

    That would be reasonably accurate anyway.

  38. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Xavier B
    I had the same feeling. The "proles" in the movie have obviously relatively high IQ and good manners, why can't they find a normal job ? It does not make any sense.

    The “proles” in the movie have obviously relatively high IQ and good manners, why can’t they find a normal job ?

    S. Korea has over-abundance of college-educated people. Too many graduates, too few white collar jobs. This account for high suicide rates in a society obsessed with status and shame. Those with credentials want good jobs, but there are limited amount. Also, women in the work force reduced the number of such jobs for men.

    This is why so many want to leave the country. And many choose not to work than work at ‘dirty’ jobs that are given to foreign workers. And many can’t marry because college-educated women have higher expectations and would rather lose themselves in soap opera fantasy than face reality.

  39. As an American listening to the BBC over the decades I’m shocked at how the received English of the announcers has degraded to street trash-level soccer fan or knocked-up teen girl delinquent dialect.

    • Replies: @Fen Tiger
    This is the BBC's deliberate policy. The usual suspects doing the usual thing.
  40. Anonymous[425] • Disclaimer says:

    Bong made two worthy movies.

    BARKING DOGS and the masterpiece MEMORIES OF MURDER which owes a lot to Imamura whom he cited in Sight & Sight Poll.

    MOTHER is half-interesting, but HOST is garbage. I refuse to see the moronic SNOW PIERCER.

    Running theme in his movies is the repression/denial of trauma, betrayal, or crime. There is the sense that Semblance of Normality has been built on a foundation of lies, even blood-soaked lies. Thus, his movies are metaphorical of modern Korean history as well.

    https://collider.com/sight-sound-directors-list-quentin-tarantino/

  41. @eD
    In the USA at least, among Whites, the main class marker is if you have a strong regional accent or speak in the the generic Midlandish TV accent. If the lower, you are probably lower class, if the higher, working class. Really upper class people probably have their own accents but I don't move in this world.

    Middle class Blacks and lower class Blacks also speak distinctly differently, but unlike with Whites there doesn't seem to be a regional component.

    Really upper class people probably have their own accents but I don’t move in this world.

    Apparently this is what a classic Boston Brahmin accent sounded like:

  42. >bad guys get in by exploiting the East Asian credulity regarding tutoring
    Interesting.
    >but how would unethical poor climbers learn to talk good
    Accent polishing is the easiest and quickest thing they could do, the wardrobe and access would be harder.

  43. Anon[121] • Disclaimer says:

    Steve, could you let the word spread to the alt right, then the wider world that I’ve found a new way to troll. They shut down most of my social media. But my new one is at GAB – my name is CuckKillingPirate BC I hate cucks & my mother is descended from pirates.

  44. “There are a few laughs in the movie, such as when the daughter dazzles the rich Korean lady by mentioning her cutting edge education in art therapy at Illinois State. ”

    I dunno. I remember reading an article about how a large number of South Korean students were attending Columbia College of Chicago (https://www.colum.edu/); I kind of recall the article being whether or not you could have too many students from another country altering the artistic experience of the student body.

    Maybe the Illinois reference is that?

  45. @theMann
    You may have brought up a genuinely interesting linguistic subject - the interplay of regional and class dialects in a number of languages
    .

    For instance, I don't care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don. Similarly, even considering the difference in vocabularies, an uneducated Mexican could never pass as an Educated Spaniard ( or Argentinian) for any length of time. I have certainly had Spaniards fall over laughing at my Tex-Mex accent. And German has so many regional accents they morph into different languages. Korean also has a wide variety of regional accents, morphing into a separate language on Jeju Island. I suspect a Seoul Korean looks upon some of those accents as pure Hillbilly, or the Korean equivalent.


    In any case, I doubt there is any such thing as a language without some kind Class markers in it. It is just part of the Human condition, people have to have other people to look down on. On the other hand, centralized Mass Media tend to ruthlessly homogenize language. On the whole, a very interesting subject.

    will Siri and its equivalents cause accent convergence? I can imagine that a regional politicialn will want his kids to be able to speak with a regional accent e.g. Texas accent so that his kids can inherit his Deep State seat.
    I can see consumers demanding a Siri product that is accent regional.

    Accent management matters: Tony Blair changed his accent from RP to Estuary English to promote the facade of being a regular bloke; Thatcher took elocution lessons to shift from blue collar London Tory to RP to assure the Tory Establishment that she was one of them. W Bush probably emphasized his Texan accent when campaigning as part of his authentic spiel.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Tony Blair did this a lot. He also sounded Scottish when addressing Scots audiences, Australian when visiting that country (he lived there as a kid), and when talking to Americans he turned into Hugh Grant.
  46. @Lurker
    I was reading somewhere about the emergence of class based accents in Britain. That they couldn't really have existed before there were schools. Before that the young nobles were tutored at home and would have the same accents as the people who surrounded them. So if you were a lord in the Highlands, or Yorkshire, or Cornwall - those are the respective accents you would have.

    It's only once the elite were schooled together that an elite accent could emerge.

    It sounds plausible, no idea if true.

    Once upon a time the upper class in the UK spoke french and the low class english. They werent the same people. Using french words in english is still consider high class. I ate vs I dined.

    • Replies: @anon
    Our cuss words in English are old anglo saxon words - dick, fuck, cunt, shit.
    The polite words are French - penis, copulate, vagina, excrement.
    Legacy of the Norman conquest in 1066.

    My grandmother, an Ozark farm wife who churned her own butter and made her own quilts, still said "Ye'uns," as in "Ye'uns come in to supper".
    I came across "Ye'uns" reading Chaucer. In Middle English the Kings and Queens said "Ye'uns." The word hung on in the Ozark back country until the 20th century and is now completely gone from the language.
  47. @Houston 1992
    I think that German and Dutch have accent differences across classes, but I agree with your point that many CE societies and Russiam don’t vary by class.

    In my experience the clothes and the behavior are much bigger markers of class in Germany. You can also gain a lot of information (including political leaning) by the names Germans give their children.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad


    In my experience the clothes and the behavior are much bigger markers of class in Germany. You can also gain a lot of information (including political leaning) by the names Germans give their children.
     
    What would be some "right wing" German names? (I'm pretty sure people aren't naming their boys Adolf.) And "left" ones?

    I'd like to cross check my German friends--whose kid's names just seem pretty normal to me.

    (BTW "more kids!" would be what i'd like to see from the Germans whether the names are traditional or not.)
  48. @jim jones
    I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.

    The old comedy Keeping Up Appearances is a good parody of the silly British class system. It was quite popular in certain parts of Europe.

    Barring accent the character ‘Onslow’ (with cap) below looks like certain Americans, Australians and Canadians.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUNssEtAwr8
  49. Where’s Twinkie when we need him? While we are waiting for his appearance, there is this:

    The Gyeonggi dialect (경기 방언) or Seoul dialect (서울 사투리/서울말) of the Korean language is the prestige dialect of the language and the basis of the standardized form used in South Korea.

    It is spoken throughout the Korean Peninsula and in the Korean diaspora, but it is mainly concentrated in the Seoul National Capital Area, the most densely populated part of South Korea, which includes the cities of Seoul and Incheon, as well as the whole Gyeonggi Province. It is also spoken in the city of Kaesong and the counties of Kaepung and Changpung in North Korea.

    More recently, Gyeonggi dialect has seen increased use in online contexts, in turn leading to the majority of young Koreans’ use of the dialect, regardless of their regional affiliation. The prolific use of online communication channels is expected to lead to a wider adoption of Gyeonggi dialect, in lieu of distinct, regional dialects.

    The Seoul accent can be divided into three variations: conservative, general, and modified. The conservative form is often found in those who have been born or have lived in Seoul before the industrialization in the 1970s (i.e. old natives of Seoul). To some people, this can slightly sound like a North Korean accent. Good examples can be found in speeches of a Seoul-born famous singer, Lee Mun-se. Older broadcast recordings (especially those from the 1980s at least) can also be typical examples of this accent. The accent used in the Daehan News, a government-made film-based news media, may be a humorous version of this accent.

    The general form can be found in speeches by nearly all broadcast news anchors these days. This variation may lie in between the conservative and the modified forms. This accent may be used for recordings of Korean language listening comprehension tests to high school students and is considered to be the standard/formal South Korean accent. Hence, news anchors and reporters who have mastered this dialect for their profession are considered to be South Korea’s most grammatically/lingually accurate, precise, and eloquent citizens.

    The last variation is usually spoken by younger generations (including teenagers) and lower-class middle-aged people in the Seoul Metropolitan Area. Some middle and upper class people in Seoul may speak with this accent due to lack of ‘rigid’ lingual education policies.[2]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyeonggi_dialect

    If this WIKIPEDIA article can be trusted, the “general” accent seems to be the prestige variety.

  50. @eD
    In the USA at least, among Whites, the main class marker is if you have a strong regional accent or speak in the the generic Midlandish TV accent. If the lower, you are probably lower class, if the higher, working class. Really upper class people probably have their own accents but I don't move in this world.

    Middle class Blacks and lower class Blacks also speak distinctly differently, but unlike with Whites there doesn't seem to be a regional component.

    Middle class blacks speak like preachers, while lower class blacks speak like rappers. It sounds too general, but I think it holds pretty well.

    I can tell older blacks from the South apart from northern blacks. Charles Rangle and Clarence had/have different regional accents to my ear. Younger blacks are starting to sound the same to me, which is like rappers. I guess the ones who don’t want to sound like rappers try to sound like the Carlton character from Fresh Prince.

  51. I’ve been to Japan twice, but never to Korea.

    Japan is really a great country.

    But from what I have been told from people who visited – Korea is like visiting a far more shabby and less interesting version of Japan, although it is still more civilized compared to China.

    And so in the film industry, there is probably some similar ordering.

    1. Japanese cinema – interesting and with many historic masterworks.
    2. Korean cinema – somewhere in the medium level.
    3. Chinese cinema – generally still in the third-world level.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    Hmmmmm..... I don't follow it, but Rosenbaum would have disagreed...

    https://www.alsolikelife.com/20002003-jonathan-rosenbaums-1000-essential-films
    , @AaronB
    Korean cinema has some first rate works, or at least very enjoyable works.

    Korea itself seems very modern and developed, and doesn't lag Japan in that respect. What it seems to lack compared to Japan is culture. The cities are clean and modern but boring. The people well dressed but dull. Few original authors. None of the eccentricity of the Japanese, or their artistic tendencies, or their originality and artistic productivity, or their modern but chaotic and interesting cities densely packed with stores, bars, eateries, and exciting activity 24 hours a day.
    , @kaganovitch
    And so in the film industry, there is probably some similar ordering.

    1. Japanese cinema – interesting and with many historic masterworks.
    2. Korean cinema – somewhere in the medium level.
    3. Chinese cinema – generally still in the third-world level.


    I'm not sure this is entirely so. While it's true that there is a vast bottom layer of junk in Chinese cinema, there are some excellent Chinese films as well. The Fifth Generation films like 'To Live and 'The Blue Kite', are very well done. Indeed, 'Farewell my Concubine' is a minor masterpiece.
  52. @Bardon Kaldian
    Steve- any many other anglophones - extrapolates their culture's markers on other cultures. I don't know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no "class difference" in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.

    Steve- any many other anglophones – extrapolates their culture’s markers on other cultures. I don’t know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no “class difference” in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.

    Didn’t Russian used to have a prestige accent? I’ve read that Lenin, for example, spoke with a “posh” accent.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    No. Why would he, he was gutter trash.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Didn’t Russian used to have
     
    Speaking of degraded language... It's the homophonous use to. Writing takes more forethought than speech; why this error is so common is beyond me.
    , @Kibernetika
    Of course Russians have prestige accents. I've never encountered a language that didn't have class signifiers (although I've never studied the utopian's dream language, Esperanto ;)

    It's the norm, worldwide.

    And it's more than vocabulary. How does one walk, carry oneself; relax on a street corner or in a park. You can't fake these habits. Today I was a little cold, so I stuck my hands into my front pockets. Then I remembered that a native lady somewhere had told not to do that, as it implied laziness (at least in her opinion).

    IMHO, non-natives cannot be trained.
  53. @Reg Cæsar

    For instance, I don’t care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don.
     
    British translations of classical comedies and European farces would use Scottish accents as class markers. Or maybe they were northern, and just looked Scottish to me.

    It's a striking experience to hear Joseph Pearce discuss elevated literary and religious topics in his East End Cockney. Perhaps that's why he moved to "Amevica". Too many stifled chuckles back home.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA-CscQuHXE

    Is that “East End Cockney” or just a personal speech impediment?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Is that “East End Cockney” or just a personal speech impediment?

     

    There's a difference?
  54. @Amerimutt Golems
    The old comedy Keeping Up Appearances is a good parody of the silly British class system. It was quite popular in certain parts of Europe.

    Barring accent the character 'Onslow' (with cap) below looks like certain Americans, Australians and Canadians.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC-5Jw-AtaA

  55. Steve, go see The Lighthouse, and let us know what you think.

  56. @Dmitry
    I've been to Japan twice, but never to Korea.

    Japan is really a great country.

    But from what I have been told from people who visited - Korea is like visiting a far more shabby and less interesting version of Japan, although it is still more civilized compared to China.

    And so in the film industry, there is probably some similar ordering.

    1. Japanese cinema - interesting and with many historic masterworks.
    2. Korean cinema - somewhere in the medium level.
    3. Chinese cinema - generally still in the third-world level.

    Hmmmmm….. I don’t follow it, but Rosenbaum would have disagreed…

    https://www.alsolikelife.com/20002003-jonathan-rosenbaums-1000-essential-films

  57. @Dmitry
    I've been to Japan twice, but never to Korea.

    Japan is really a great country.

    But from what I have been told from people who visited - Korea is like visiting a far more shabby and less interesting version of Japan, although it is still more civilized compared to China.

    And so in the film industry, there is probably some similar ordering.

    1. Japanese cinema - interesting and with many historic masterworks.
    2. Korean cinema - somewhere in the medium level.
    3. Chinese cinema - generally still in the third-world level.

    Korean cinema has some first rate works, or at least very enjoyable works.

    Korea itself seems very modern and developed, and doesn’t lag Japan in that respect. What it seems to lack compared to Japan is culture. The cities are clean and modern but boring. The people well dressed but dull. Few original authors. None of the eccentricity of the Japanese, or their artistic tendencies, or their originality and artistic productivity, or their modern but chaotic and interesting cities densely packed with stores, bars, eateries, and exciting activity 24 hours a day.

  58. It is a deep conceit of most prosperous societies that their poor and poor-adjacent classes are filled with highly capable people, such that any movie depicting them leaves you wondering “Hey, we could use somebody like that at the office, why aren’t they working?”

    The reality is that the poorer classes are filled with many less-than-capable people — still deserving of full rights, respect, and love — who are not just in need of a break in order to prosper economically.

    A free market economic is the ultimate meritocracy — creating a feedback loop where those with the least are also the least capable. No movie would ever tend to show characters who are in low station, but tend to belong there based on their decision-making and communication skills.

  59. @Lurker
    I was reading somewhere about the emergence of class based accents in Britain. That they couldn't really have existed before there were schools. Before that the young nobles were tutored at home and would have the same accents as the people who surrounded them. So if you were a lord in the Highlands, or Yorkshire, or Cornwall - those are the respective accents you would have.

    It's only once the elite were schooled together that an elite accent could emerge.

    It sounds plausible, no idea if true.

    young nobles were tutored at home and would have the same accents as the people who surrounded them. So if you were a lord in the Highlands

    In the Highlands, I believe they practiced fosterage, as did the native Irish.

    The children of nobles would be sent out of the home at a very young age, often into the homes of people who weren’t nobles but retainers or tenants. Partly, it was for their education; partly it was to build loyalty, for instance, between foster-brothers. In return, the foster family would get some benefit, like a certain number of cows.

    The practice was ancient and lasted a long time. Daniel O’Connell was actually fostered in his youth.

    • Replies: @David
    Montaigne was brought up for a while with a peasant family on his father's estate. He remembers it fondly.
  60. @jim jones
    I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.

    Somewhat related:

    As a visiting foreigner last week, I particularly liked signs in shops and windows that avowed “Unruly children will be sold to the circus.”

  61. @eD
    In the USA at least, among Whites, the main class marker is if you have a strong regional accent or speak in the the generic Midlandish TV accent. If the lower, you are probably lower class, if the higher, working class. Really upper class people probably have their own accents but I don't move in this world.

    Middle class Blacks and lower class Blacks also speak distinctly differently, but unlike with Whites there doesn't seem to be a regional component.

    There are huge regional differences in accent among US blacks. It’s basically different languages.

  62. @Dmitry
    I've been to Japan twice, but never to Korea.

    Japan is really a great country.

    But from what I have been told from people who visited - Korea is like visiting a far more shabby and less interesting version of Japan, although it is still more civilized compared to China.

    And so in the film industry, there is probably some similar ordering.

    1. Japanese cinema - interesting and with many historic masterworks.
    2. Korean cinema - somewhere in the medium level.
    3. Chinese cinema - generally still in the third-world level.

    And so in the film industry, there is probably some similar ordering.

    1. Japanese cinema – interesting and with many historic masterworks.
    2. Korean cinema – somewhere in the medium level.
    3. Chinese cinema – generally still in the third-world level.

    I’m not sure this is entirely so. While it’s true that there is a vast bottom layer of junk in Chinese cinema, there are some excellent Chinese films as well. The Fifth Generation films like ‘To Live and ‘The Blue Kite’, are very well done. Indeed, ‘Farewell my Concubine’ is a minor masterpiece.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    1. Japanese cinema – interesting and with many historic masterworks.
    2. Korean cinema – somewhere in the medium level.
    3. Chinese cinema – generally still in the third-world level.
     

    I’m not sure this is entirely so.
     
    True. Japanese cinema reached its peak in the 50s to mid-60s. It's been pretty much all downhill since then. And in the past 20 yrs, Japanese cinema has been less interesting and lower-quality than Korean and Chinese cinema. Granted, there are exceptions like Hirokazu Kore-eda, but most of it is beyond belief in juvenilia and retardation. For a long time, Korean cinema used to be a joke in the international film circuit. But things began to change sometime in the 90s when some real talents began to emerge, and since then, Korea has produced more interesting 'auteurs' than Japan. As for Chinese cinema, it showed great promise in the 80s with a resurgence of humanist films by directors like Yimou and Kaige. One advantage of state-funded film industry is movie projects aren't always decided by profit motif. Also, the fading of Maoism meant directors could work on more personal projects than simply make propaganda. There is a similarity between Korean and Chinese 'art cinema' in that they are very unsparing, raw, and blunt about life and its struggles. In some ways, too much so. And this may be why even their best works are less appealing than Japanese films of the golden era. Directors like Kurosawa, Mizoguchi, Kobayashi, Imamura, Ichikawa, and etc often made realist works about hardship and struggle, but they had a keen and meticulous aesthetic sensibility that made their films far more appealing. Korean cinema wants to beat you up with the truth. Despite the improvement in quality and sensibility, it's still ham-fisted.

    It's like the difference between French New Wave and British Angry Young Men films. 400 BLOWS and LONELINESS OF LONG DISTANCE RUNNER & SATURDAY NIGHT AND SUNDAY MORNING are all about working class or lower-middle class folks and their everyday problems. And yet, there is poetry in Truffaut's realism whereas the Angry Young Man films, though admirable in many ways, are like punch in the gut.

    Consider this movie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Is_Purest_White

    In some ways, it's an excellent work that is very truthful about life, but its raw and bare-bones aesthetics is like being served with uncooked meat and veggies. Hard to digest. Same goes for much of Turkish cinema. Nuri Bilge Ceylan is an estimable director, but his works don't go down easy. Not much in the way of aesthetic lubricant.
  63. Koreans in Korea are fine with me. Koreans in the USA should be encouraged to go back to Korea.

    The American Empire should withdraw all troops and military installations from Korea and Korea should turn the screw and gain a nuclear deterrent for itself. Japan and Germany should also get nukes. Australians and Italians too.

    Koreans and Chinese and Asian Indians should be strongly encouraged to leave the USA and other European Christian nations and return to their own nations. President Trump will destroy the Republican Party with his call for the USA to be flooded with mass legal immigration “in the largest numbers ever.”

    When the next round of the global financial implosion hits is the time to put this repatriation plan into operation. The globalized central banker shysters are panicking now and doing all kinds of monetary extremism to keep the asset bubbles from imploding, but it won’t work and it will cause inter-generational strife to bust out all over. Trump says the economy is booming but Trump says the Fed has to cut the federal funds rate below 2 percent. Donny Trump can’t explain that except for currency devaluation purposes to boost American manufacturing.

  64. @Xavier B
    I had the same feeling. The "proles" in the movie have obviously relatively high IQ and good manners, why can't they find a normal job ? It does not make any sense.

    “better jobs than folding pizza boxes”

    Try being a food server at an IHOP which is located in an area that is populated by a certain demographic. Folding pizza boxes at a Korean pizzeria would be nirvana in comparison.

    “why can’t they find a normal job?”

    Folding pizza boxes and IHOP are normal jobs in our intersectional-libertarian wonderland.

  65. “None of the characters, poor or rich, seemed all that sympathetic.”

    Said the producers who passed on the scripts that became great movies.

  66. James Mason from Yorkshire has a plummy accent that’s not too plummy to be irritating.

    James Mason grew up in Huddersfield. Huddersfield is in West Yorkshire.

    Huddersfield has been overrun by Muslim Rape Gangs and other nation-wrecking multicultural mayhem.

    When the English ruling class is removed from power it will be nice to restore the traditional ancestral stock of Huddersfield.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    James Mason from Yorkshire has a plummy accent that’s not too plummy to be irritating.
     
    Mason had elements of Yorkshire in his accent. In GEORGY GIRL, he really let loose with it:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8wDUCqeY94
  67. A few comments on language:
    a) Every major language has a prestige variant. Languages spoken by few speakers or in backward regional areas may avoid this, but then the language itself is a marker of lack of prestige.
    b) I don’t know much about Slavic languages, but any lack of major dialectal variance might be explained by the fact that until the 19th century, their elites conducted their business in other languages (in Russia, for instance, French). Nonetheless, nowadays, the language of the media, usually based on that of the capital, is certainly considered the prestige language.

  68. @Romanian
    But there are regional dialects or accents and these become a distinguishing factor, especially when the respective accent is associated with negative stereotypes like poverty. In my country at least, most people lose their regional accents when coming to live in the Big City, and hilariously regain them when talking to their moms on the phone.

    I also remember reading that young Turks in Germany are developing their own patois so that might be a thing too.

    Perhaps you can help me Romanian: It is well known by now that the governor of California is nosferatu. He even sports a Christopher Lee-like hairdo. All that’s missing is the cape. I mock him by referring to him as Dracula. In your land, would that be considered an insult to compare this Napa Valley jackass to the great Vlad the Impaler? Maybe I should call the jackass Count Yorga, in reference to the low-rent LA vampire?

    • Replies: @Romanian
    Of course it is. Vlad was a patriot, at least by the standards of feudal times, and is common meme material around here for anti-governmental messages, what with his impaling of local noblemen for corruption and treason. He was also very non-PC, as evidenced by the fight against his brother, Radu the Beautiful, whom the Ottomans wanted on the throne instead of him and who had went native while a royal hostage in Constantinople - loyal companion to Mehmed II, head of Ottoman troops. Hell, if you google Radu cel Frumos and Mehmed, the Internet is full of gay art (Yaoi style). The Ottomans called it Greek love.

    Yorga is too obscure for me, though the Internet tells me its Aboriginal slang for woman as well, so it might work for you. But do you really want to go down that rabbit's hole of sensitivity?

    Newsom does not really that prominent widow's peak that would be stereotypical imagery.
  69. @Reg Cæsar

    For instance, I don’t care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don.
     
    British translations of classical comedies and European farces would use Scottish accents as class markers. Or maybe they were northern, and just looked Scottish to me.

    It's a striking experience to hear Joseph Pearce discuss elevated literary and religious topics in his East End Cockney. Perhaps that's why he moved to "Amevica". Too many stifled chuckles back home.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA-CscQuHXE

    It’s a striking experience to hear Joseph Pearce discuss elevated literary and religious topics in his East End Cockney.

    Pretty sure he grew up in Ulster.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Pretty sure he grew up in Ulster.
     
    You're mad, Barking mad.

    http://subway.umka.org/stations/london/barking.gif

  70. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. S. S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @syonredux

    Steve- any many other anglophones – extrapolates their culture’s markers on other cultures. I don’t know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no “class difference” in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.
     
    Didn't Russian used to have a prestige accent? I've read that Lenin, for example, spoke with a "posh" accent.

    No. Why would he, he was gutter trash.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    No. Why would he, he was gutter trash.
     
    Don't think so:

    Lenin's father, Ilya Nikolayevich Ulyanov, was from a family of serfs; his ethnic origins remain unclear, with suggestions being made that he was Russian, Chuvash, Mordvin, or Kalmyk.[2] Despite this lower-class background Ilya had risen to middle-class status, studying physics and mathematics at Kazan Imperial University before teaching at the Penza Institute for the Nobility.[3] Ilya married Maria Alexandrovna Blank in mid-1863.[4] Well educated, she was the daughter of a wealthy German–Swedish Lutheran mother, and a Russian Jewish father who had converted to Christianity and worked as a physician.[5] It is likely that Lenin was unaware of his mother's half-Jewish ancestry, which was only discovered by his sister Anna after his death.[6] Soon after their wedding, Ilya obtained a job in Nizhny Novgorod, rising to become Director of Primary Schools in the Simbirsk district six years later. Five years after that, he was promoted to Director of Public Schools for the province, overseeing the foundation of over 450 schools as a part of the government's plans for modernisation. His dedication to education earned him the Order of St. Vladimir, which bestowed on him the status of hereditary nobleman.[7]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin
  71. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. S. S. M. Coulton"] says:

    Movies are for women and faggots.

  72. @Charles Pewitt
    James Mason from Yorkshire has a plummy accent that's not too plummy to be irritating.

    James Mason grew up in Huddersfield. Huddersfield is in West Yorkshire.

    Huddersfield has been overrun by Muslim Rape Gangs and other nation-wrecking multicultural mayhem.

    When the English ruling class is removed from power it will be nice to restore the traditional ancestral stock of Huddersfield.

    https://youtu.be/I4LsSlWzITA

    James Mason from Yorkshire has a plummy accent that’s not too plummy to be irritating.

    Mason had elements of Yorkshire in his accent. In GEORGY GIRL, he really let loose with it:

    • Replies: @Cortes
    Mason’s family wasn’t living in a hole in the road like the Yorkshiremen in the Monty Python sketch.

    From Wikipedia:

    Mason was born in Huddersfield, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, to Mabel Hattersley (Gaunt) and John Mason.[1]

    His father was a wealthy textile merchant. He was educated at Marlborough College, and earned a first in Architecture at Peterhouse, Cambridge, where he became involved in stock theatre companies in his spare time. Mason had no formal training in acting and initially embarked upon it for fun.”

    An entertaining piece providing an insight into the range of vocabulary of the English gentry is available in

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F***ing_Fulfords

  73. @Sam Coulton
    No. Why would he, he was gutter trash.

    No. Why would he, he was gutter trash.

    Don’t think so:

    Lenin’s father, Ilya Nikolayevich Ulyanov, was from a family of serfs; his ethnic origins remain unclear, with suggestions being made that he was Russian, Chuvash, Mordvin, or Kalmyk.[2] Despite this lower-class background Ilya had risen to middle-class status, studying physics and mathematics at Kazan Imperial University before teaching at the Penza Institute for the Nobility.[3] Ilya married Maria Alexandrovna Blank in mid-1863.[4] Well educated, she was the daughter of a wealthy German–Swedish Lutheran mother, and a Russian Jewish father who had converted to Christianity and worked as a physician.[5] It is likely that Lenin was unaware of his mother’s half-Jewish ancestry, which was only discovered by his sister Anna after his death.[6] Soon after their wedding, Ilya obtained a job in Nizhny Novgorod, rising to become Director of Primary Schools in the Simbirsk district six years later. Five years after that, he was promoted to Director of Public Schools for the province, overseeing the foundation of over 450 schools as a part of the government’s plans for modernisation. His dedication to education earned him the Order of St. Vladimir, which bestowed on him the status of hereditary nobleman.[7]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    There is nothing in that quote to indicate that Lenin's family was not gutter trash.
    , @Desiderius
    Lenin : his brother :: John Wick : his dog

    Stalin was from the Hardly Working Class.

  74. @AndrewR
    Is that "East End Cockney" or just a personal speech impediment?

    Is that “East End Cockney” or just a personal speech impediment?

    There’s a difference?

  75. @GermanReader2
    In my experience the clothes and the behavior are much bigger markers of class in Germany. You can also gain a lot of information (including political leaning) by the names Germans give their children.

    In my experience the clothes and the behavior are much bigger markers of class in Germany. You can also gain a lot of information (including political leaning) by the names Germans give their children.

    What would be some “right wing” German names? (I’m pretty sure people aren’t naming their boys Adolf.) And “left” ones?

    I’d like to cross check my German friends–whose kid’s names just seem pretty normal to me.

    (BTW “more kids!” would be what i’d like to see from the Germans whether the names are traditional or not.)

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    BTW “more kids!” would be what i’d like to see from the Germans whether the names are traditional or not.

     

    Especially Erzgebirge and Thuringian kids. Both are endangered.

    But whodathunkit? There are Chinese-- Chinese Chinese-- who breed like nigeriennes, i.e., nigeroises:


    The world’s most fertile Chinese live in a violent backwater of Myanmar
    , @GermanReader2

    What would be some “right wing” German names? (I’m pretty sure people aren’t naming their boys Adolf.) And “left” ones?

    I’d like to cross check my German friends–whose kid’s names just seem pretty normal to me.
     
    Here is my estimate. Please note, that in a lot of cases you cannot tell the political leaning of the parents with a 100% accuracy, unless the people were born in the Former Eastern German Republic (more about that later). Especially some of the names I would assign to conservative parents (Alexander, Luisa) are quite popular at the moment for the rest of society as well.

    Conservative Germans: Older German names, that were already popular around 1900, mostly longer
    Examples: Maximilian (very popular in Bavaria), Alexander, Friedrich, etc. for boys
    Charlotte, Elisabeth, Luise/Luisa, Sophie/Sophia, Johanna, etc. for girls

    Green-Party-voting parents: Scandinavian names in a lot of cases
    Examples: Torben, Solveigh, etc.

    Very religious Christian parents: Names from the old testament
    Examples: Sarah, Rebekka, etc.

    Underclass Germans: English/Irish (mostly for boys) and French (mostly for girls) names
    Examples: Ricky, Steven, Kevin, Justin for boys ("Kevin is not a name, Kevin is a diagnosis")
    Chantal, Jacqueline, etc. for girls

    Regular Germans: Mostly shorter names, in a lot of cases vaguely Italian-sounding
    Examples: Mia, Lina, Lea, Hanna, .. for girls
    Ben, Jonas, Paul, Leon etc. for boys

    Historically, in the former Eastern German Republic people who were dissatisfied with the system gave their children American/French/English/Italian names, while people who were in favor of socialism gave their children Russian names.
    , @GermanReader2

    What would be some “right wing” German names? (I’m pretty sure people aren’t naming their boys Adolf.)
     
    I have never met someone named Adolf in Germany, who was younger than 80. Someone told me, that in Austria people still call some boys Adolf, but in Germany this is vanishingly rare. In my opinion, you should not name your child Adolf, but it will make his life a lot harder. For instance, a friend of worked for an organisation, that placed Germans, who wanted to spend a year of high school in another country with guest-families and looked after them abroad.
    One of her charges was a boy named Adolf. By her account, he was a nice young man. Unfortunatedly for him, no family wanted to take him and she thought this was because of his name.
    Eventually, they found some family in Argentina, who took him in. (After WW2 a lot of Nazis fled to Argentina. We both suspected his guest-family had some Nazi-roots)
  76. @RohadtMagyar
    No class difference? No way.

    That's certainly not true in Hungarian or German, and I doubt it is true elsewhere in CEE.

    You can tell if someone has been educated or grew up with a Buda accent in Hungarian in how they conjugate the "-ikes" verbs. That's a very distinct marker.

    Also, there is also a distinct countryside accent, often typified by dropping, for example, the "L" in a word like bolt (English: store) -- so it sound like boat.

    Hungarians like to watch dubbed (instead of subtitled movies) and when they dub, they miss out on a lot of meta-data like class or nationality.

    I've watched many a Hollywood movie with the actors speaking in various accents, standard American, lower-class Scottish and South African etc etc -- all of which signal this sort of meta-data to Anglophone audience --- and it is lost when it is dubbed all in Standard Hungarian.

    Also, there is also a distinct countryside accent, often typified by dropping, for example, the “L” in a word like bolt (English: store) — so it sound like boat.

    I was told– by none other than the Joseph Pearce of the video above– that the ultimate expression of this is in Millwall, or “Miwwwaww”, of the notorious football hooligans. I replied that Brazilians do the same– “Braziw”, “Portugaw”. But it’s been standardized there.

    Although Rio shares the sounds of the poor, black northeast, it was long the capital, and is still the cultural capital, and Carioca has some prestige. Whereas São Paulo and even more so the mostly-white south have phonemes a bit closer to Spanish. (Which defeats the whole point of Portuguese, doesn’t it?)

    Is there anywhere else in the world where the upper- and lower-class accents are closer to each other than to the middle-class’s?

  77. OFF TOPIC

    Morgoth:

    “The “hatchling” is a kind of leftist who…their talking points and their psychology…it’s all fake of course…but it’s as if they just cracked out of an egg. And they’ve just arrived in the world. And they have no a priori knowledge of the universe, of history, of humanity, of basic common sense. Nothing.”

    https://twitter.com/LivesMorgoth/status/1188074782492971008?s=20

  78. @AnotherDad


    In my experience the clothes and the behavior are much bigger markers of class in Germany. You can also gain a lot of information (including political leaning) by the names Germans give their children.
     
    What would be some "right wing" German names? (I'm pretty sure people aren't naming their boys Adolf.) And "left" ones?

    I'd like to cross check my German friends--whose kid's names just seem pretty normal to me.

    (BTW "more kids!" would be what i'd like to see from the Germans whether the names are traditional or not.)

    BTW “more kids!” would be what i’d like to see from the Germans whether the names are traditional or not.

    Especially Erzgebirge and Thuringian kids. Both are endangered.

    But whodathunkit? There are Chinese– Chinese Chinese– who breed like nigeriennes, i.e., nigeroises:

    The world’s most fertile Chinese live in a violent backwater of Myanmar

  79. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. S. S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @syonredux

    No. Why would he, he was gutter trash.
     
    Don't think so:

    Lenin's father, Ilya Nikolayevich Ulyanov, was from a family of serfs; his ethnic origins remain unclear, with suggestions being made that he was Russian, Chuvash, Mordvin, or Kalmyk.[2] Despite this lower-class background Ilya had risen to middle-class status, studying physics and mathematics at Kazan Imperial University before teaching at the Penza Institute for the Nobility.[3] Ilya married Maria Alexandrovna Blank in mid-1863.[4] Well educated, she was the daughter of a wealthy German–Swedish Lutheran mother, and a Russian Jewish father who had converted to Christianity and worked as a physician.[5] It is likely that Lenin was unaware of his mother's half-Jewish ancestry, which was only discovered by his sister Anna after his death.[6] Soon after their wedding, Ilya obtained a job in Nizhny Novgorod, rising to become Director of Primary Schools in the Simbirsk district six years later. Five years after that, he was promoted to Director of Public Schools for the province, overseeing the foundation of over 450 schools as a part of the government's plans for modernisation. His dedication to education earned him the Order of St. Vladimir, which bestowed on him the status of hereditary nobleman.[7]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin

    There is nothing in that quote to indicate that Lenin’s family was not gutter trash.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    There is nothing in that quote to indicate that Lenin’s family was not gutter trash.
     
    Well, it does indicate that Lenin didn't grow up in the gutters.....
    , @Alden
    His brother went off to a free state university. Joined a revolutionary group and was hanged for it. Both the state university professors and the public school teachers and administrators were heavily involved in 19th century Russian revolutionary politics
  80. Anonymous[193] • Disclaimer says:
    @kaganovitch
    And so in the film industry, there is probably some similar ordering.

    1. Japanese cinema – interesting and with many historic masterworks.
    2. Korean cinema – somewhere in the medium level.
    3. Chinese cinema – generally still in the third-world level.


    I'm not sure this is entirely so. While it's true that there is a vast bottom layer of junk in Chinese cinema, there are some excellent Chinese films as well. The Fifth Generation films like 'To Live and 'The Blue Kite', are very well done. Indeed, 'Farewell my Concubine' is a minor masterpiece.

    1. Japanese cinema – interesting and with many historic masterworks.
    2. Korean cinema – somewhere in the medium level.
    3. Chinese cinema – generally still in the third-world level.

    I’m not sure this is entirely so.

    True. Japanese cinema reached its peak in the 50s to mid-60s. It’s been pretty much all downhill since then. And in the past 20 yrs, Japanese cinema has been less interesting and lower-quality than Korean and Chinese cinema. Granted, there are exceptions like Hirokazu Kore-eda, but most of it is beyond belief in juvenilia and retardation. For a long time, Korean cinema used to be a joke in the international film circuit. But things began to change sometime in the 90s when some real talents began to emerge, and since then, Korea has produced more interesting ‘auteurs’ than Japan. As for Chinese cinema, it showed great promise in the 80s with a resurgence of humanist films by directors like Yimou and Kaige. One advantage of state-funded film industry is movie projects aren’t always decided by profit motif. Also, the fading of Maoism meant directors could work on more personal projects than simply make propaganda. There is a similarity between Korean and Chinese ‘art cinema’ in that they are very unsparing, raw, and blunt about life and its struggles. In some ways, too much so. And this may be why even their best works are less appealing than Japanese films of the golden era. Directors like Kurosawa, Mizoguchi, Kobayashi, Imamura, Ichikawa, and etc often made realist works about hardship and struggle, but they had a keen and meticulous aesthetic sensibility that made their films far more appealing. Korean cinema wants to beat you up with the truth. Despite the improvement in quality and sensibility, it’s still ham-fisted.

    It’s like the difference between French New Wave and British Angry Young Men films. 400 BLOWS and LONELINESS OF LONG DISTANCE RUNNER & SATURDAY NIGHT AND SUNDAY MORNING are all about working class or lower-middle class folks and their everyday problems. And yet, there is poetry in Truffaut’s realism whereas the Angry Young Man films, though admirable in many ways, are like punch in the gut.

    Consider this movie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Is_Purest_White

    In some ways, it’s an excellent work that is very truthful about life, but its raw and bare-bones aesthetics is like being served with uncooked meat and veggies. Hard to digest. Same goes for much of Turkish cinema. Nuri Bilge Ceylan is an estimable director, but his works don’t go down easy. Not much in the way of aesthetic lubricant.

  81. OT:

  82. @syonredux

    James Mason from Yorkshire has a plummy accent that’s not too plummy to be irritating.
     
    Mason had elements of Yorkshire in his accent. In GEORGY GIRL, he really let loose with it:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8wDUCqeY94

    Mason’s family wasn’t living in a hole in the road like the Yorkshiremen in the Monty Python sketch.

    From Wikipedia:

    Mason was born in Huddersfield, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, to Mabel Hattersley (Gaunt) and John Mason.[1]

    His father was a wealthy textile merchant. He was educated at Marlborough College, and earned a first in Architecture at Peterhouse, Cambridge, where he became involved in stock theatre companies in his spare time. Mason had no formal training in acting and initially embarked upon it for fun.”

    An entertaining piece providing an insight into the range of vocabulary of the English gentry is available in

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F***ing_Fulfords

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Mason’s family wasn’t living in a hole in the road like the Yorkshiremen in the Monty Python sketch.
     
    Wasn't implying that they did; I was merely observing that there was a bit of Yorkshire in his voice.
  83. @AnotherDad


    In my experience the clothes and the behavior are much bigger markers of class in Germany. You can also gain a lot of information (including political leaning) by the names Germans give their children.
     
    What would be some "right wing" German names? (I'm pretty sure people aren't naming their boys Adolf.) And "left" ones?

    I'd like to cross check my German friends--whose kid's names just seem pretty normal to me.

    (BTW "more kids!" would be what i'd like to see from the Germans whether the names are traditional or not.)

    What would be some “right wing” German names? (I’m pretty sure people aren’t naming their boys Adolf.) And “left” ones?

    I’d like to cross check my German friends–whose kid’s names just seem pretty normal to me.

    Here is my estimate. Please note, that in a lot of cases you cannot tell the political leaning of the parents with a 100% accuracy, unless the people were born in the Former Eastern German Republic (more about that later). Especially some of the names I would assign to conservative parents (Alexander, Luisa) are quite popular at the moment for the rest of society as well.

    Conservative Germans: Older German names, that were already popular around 1900, mostly longer
    Examples: Maximilian (very popular in Bavaria), Alexander, Friedrich, etc. for boys
    Charlotte, Elisabeth, Luise/Luisa, Sophie/Sophia, Johanna, etc. for girls

    Green-Party-voting parents: Scandinavian names in a lot of cases
    Examples: Torben, Solveigh, etc.

    Very religious Christian parents: Names from the old testament
    Examples: Sarah, Rebekka, etc.

    Underclass Germans: English/Irish (mostly for boys) and French (mostly for girls) names
    Examples: Ricky, Steven, Kevin, Justin for boys (“Kevin is not a name, Kevin is a diagnosis”)
    Chantal, Jacqueline, etc. for girls

    Regular Germans: Mostly shorter names, in a lot of cases vaguely Italian-sounding
    Examples: Mia, Lina, Lea, Hanna, .. for girls
    Ben, Jonas, Paul, Leon etc. for boys

    Historically, in the former Eastern German Republic people who were dissatisfied with the system gave their children American/French/English/Italian names, while people who were in favor of socialism gave their children Russian names.

    • Agree: European-American
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    This is very interesting, and not entirely what I was expecting. Thanks much for posting it.
    , @Anon
    A German friend explained once that Claudia and Berta were lower class German names. His wife's name is Monika, an acceptably higher class one. You forgot Christian names that transcend better the social chasms: Joseph, Maria, Gloria. Not a believer, are you.
    , @Hail
    What would you sat about the name Björn?

    If the wiki list of famous Björns is a good sample, the name is at least 25x as popular in Scandinavia as in Germany.

    Some of the "German Björns" are, on closer inspection, either of recent Scandinavian origin (e.g., this one) or from the far north of Germany, near Scandinavia (e.g, Björn Engholm, SPD politician, of Lübeck, a Baltic Hanseatic city).

    Anyway, we now have the case of Björn Höcke (recently the subject of discussion in Anatoly Karlin's open thread [currently comment-181]). He is now a famous due to his success, since 2015, as an anti-Merkel insurgent political figure of the Right. Björn Höcke defeated the CDU (regionally, for now), and on a nationalist platform, despite the usual slanders, slurs, and hysterics directed against him. (His AfD took 22 of 90 seats in the new Landtag, more than the CDU [21 seats], in Thuringia this week.)

    I've heard German media often misquoted Björn Höcke as "Bernd Höcke" in the early years -- because of uncommonness of the Björn name?

    This particular Björn's father, who I can only suppose must have named him (or at the least endorsed the name choice) is said to have been a quiet ethnonationalist (a.k.a., a centrist of the past), whose parents were expelled from East Prussia in 1945. So why would the father have chosen "Björn" when his son was born in 1972 in W.Germany?

    The "Björn" choice does not fit with your


    Green-Party-voting parents: Scandinavian names in a lot of cases
     
    But that may be overruled by the father's Baltic (East Prussia) origin.
  84. Maybe the solution is to watch movies in English starring White people; you might be surprised by how many there are…

  85. NYT: Are we ready for breastfeeding fathers?

    https://t.co/xinwum9h3M?amp=1

  86. @syonredux

    No. Why would he, he was gutter trash.
     
    Don't think so:

    Lenin's father, Ilya Nikolayevich Ulyanov, was from a family of serfs; his ethnic origins remain unclear, with suggestions being made that he was Russian, Chuvash, Mordvin, or Kalmyk.[2] Despite this lower-class background Ilya had risen to middle-class status, studying physics and mathematics at Kazan Imperial University before teaching at the Penza Institute for the Nobility.[3] Ilya married Maria Alexandrovna Blank in mid-1863.[4] Well educated, she was the daughter of a wealthy German–Swedish Lutheran mother, and a Russian Jewish father who had converted to Christianity and worked as a physician.[5] It is likely that Lenin was unaware of his mother's half-Jewish ancestry, which was only discovered by his sister Anna after his death.[6] Soon after their wedding, Ilya obtained a job in Nizhny Novgorod, rising to become Director of Primary Schools in the Simbirsk district six years later. Five years after that, he was promoted to Director of Public Schools for the province, overseeing the foundation of over 450 schools as a part of the government's plans for modernisation. His dedication to education earned him the Order of St. Vladimir, which bestowed on him the status of hereditary nobleman.[7]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin

    Lenin : his brother :: John Wick : his dog

    Stalin was from the Hardly Working Class.

  87. memes mocking WAPO headline of dead terrorist on a roll.

  88. @Anonymous

    Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.
     
    There was a Yale study which showed white libs intentionally dumbed down their language (vocabulary) when speaking to a minority or someone they thought was a minority (NAM).

    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article222424675.html

    ...They recruited people to participate in a study where they were told to email a partner using a list of words. Sometimes the email would be about some theoretical task, or it could just be a friendly introduction.

    The catch? The person they were emailing either had a stereotypical “white” name like “Emily’ or a stereotypically “black” name like “Lakisha.”

    The researchers found that liberals were less likely to use words that signified competence and more likely to use words signifying warmth when speaking with people they thought were black. There was no such connection for conservatives.

    So why does this happen?

    Dupree says it might be a sign that white liberals “may unwittingly draw on negative stereotypes, dumbing themselves down in a likely well-meaning, “folksy” but ultimately patronizing, attempt to connect” with minorities, according to the study...
     

    A function of energy levels: the white liberals in the study din feel no ways tah’d.

  89. Anonymous[360] • Disclaimer says:

    This movie, like the recent Joker, was way too overhyped, although I thought it was better than Joker. Overall, I thought both movies were not very good.

    Both films seem to be overhyped by critics and film snobs for Marxist, class reasons and because socialism is fashionable among millenials these days.

    Part of the hype for this movie also seems to be due to Bong’s older movies rather than due to an objective judgment of it. Bong’s Memories of Murder is very good, one of the best movies of this century.

    There’s a Korean movie that came out last year called Burning which was good, much better than Parasite. It’s basically a much better version of Parasite in terms of the class theme stuff.

  90. @jim jones
    I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.

    I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.

    Golliwogs begin at Calais?

    • Replies: @Lot
    https://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/042/151/jnjyxa31o8_thats_racist_animated1.gif
  91. Best movie lately was Dunkirk.

    Anyone planning on seeing Midway in IMAX? I’ve never seen a hollywood feature in imax, just short educational movies when I was a tyke.

    I wasn’t that impressed back then. Bigger screen, sit further back, don’t they cancel out?

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    Anyone planning on seeing Midway in IMAX?
     
    I do. The trailers don't look like the story is all that great, but the action scenes look nice.

    IMAX has a bigger screen but also better sound.
  92. @Reg Cæsar

    I am English and can certainly tell the class of any fellow Brits, foreigners are a different matter so I treat them all as violent children to be humoured.

     

    Golliwogs begin at Calais?


    http://www.arrangementsbyarrangement.com/wp-content/uploads/edd/Debussy-Golliwog-Piano-vl-cl-web-sample-5.jpg

  93. @syonredux

    Steve- any many other anglophones – extrapolates their culture’s markers on other cultures. I don’t know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no “class difference” in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.
     
    Didn't Russian used to have a prestige accent? I've read that Lenin, for example, spoke with a "posh" accent.

    Didn’t Russian used to have

    Speaking of degraded language… It’s the homophonous use to. Writing takes more forethought than speech; why this error is so common is beyond me.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Didn’t Russian used to have

    Speaking of degraded language… It’s the homophonous use to. Writing takes more forethought than speech; why this error is so common is beyond me.
     
    I think that typing is to blame. For example, I never confuse their and there while using a pen/pencil, but I do occasionally make that kind of error while typing. Friends of mine have noted making similar kinds of mistakes while at the keyboard.

    Writing takes more forethought than speech;
     
    I'm not sure that that's true in the internet age. A lot of people nowadays write as they speak, with a kind of careless ease.
    , @syonredux
    Proofreading is another thing that's harder to do while staring at a computer screen. To do a thorough job, I need paper. A friend of mine who works as an editor at a publishing house says that she's the same way.
  94. @Romanian
    The best Korean movie I ever saw was The Handmaiden. Went into the theater determined to hate it, and was bowled over.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaiden

    Oddly enough, it is an adaptation of Fingersmith, a Western novel.

    Plenty of iSteve material resulting from the adaptation, including the Japanese elites consciously mimicking the West.

    The best Korean movie I ever saw was The Handmaiden. Went into the theater determined to hate it, and was bowled over.

    I heard the girl-on-girl scenes in this were up there with Bound and Blue is the Warmest Color.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    Disobedience had some great....hmmm....cinematography, yeah, great cinematography....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEUra7FFpGo
    , @Romanian
    What kind of perv do you take me for? I watched it for the sake of art!!! :) I had no spoilers going in, so I did not know what to expect, or to watch out for sexual content.

    Ahem, actually they were very tame (basic erotica) compared to Blue is the Warmest Color (La vie d'Adele, as I saw it), which was the closest thing to porn I have ever seen coming out of cinema until Love. Actually, I am lying - google Lucia y el sexo. Pretty soon, there will be no shock value left in sex in cinema. I have not seen Bound.
  95. @Houston 1992
    I think that German and Dutch have accent differences across classes, but I agree with your point that many CE societies and Russiam don’t vary by class.

    As an American visiting parts of Germany and Italy, it certainly seemed to me that the working class people there seemed to have more pronounced regional accents, whereas the educated class spoke a more “standardized” national tongue.

    (Just the same as in the various regions of the U.S.A., of course)

  96. @Art Deco
    It’s a striking experience to hear Joseph Pearce discuss elevated literary and religious topics in his East End Cockney.

    Pretty sure he grew up in Ulster.

    Pretty sure he grew up in Ulster.

    You’re mad, Barking mad.

  97. @Anon
    Try Memories of Murder and Mother from Bong. Much better. Also -- not Bong -- but Burning was fantastic.

    Memories of Murder is fantastic, have not seen any of his other movies, but that one is so great.

  98. @Xavier B
    I had the same feeling. The "proles" in the movie have obviously relatively high IQ and good manners, why can't they find a normal job ? It does not make any sense.

    It’s fiction. Actors speak lines, and do things, that don’t make sense, to move a story towards a contrived conclusion. As long as a large enough audience pays to see the film, it’s all good.

    The film’s purpose may be to make the mid to upper middle class anxious, as criminals may appear as their perception of the ideal. Not the usual low class thugs they can easily avoid in Gangnam.

  99. @syonredux

    Steve- any many other anglophones – extrapolates their culture’s markers on other cultures. I don’t know about Korean, but in most central & east-European languages there is virtually no “class difference” in speaking a national tongue. Except for a range of vocabulary, workers speak more or less the same as top politicians.
     
    Didn't Russian used to have a prestige accent? I've read that Lenin, for example, spoke with a "posh" accent.

    Of course Russians have prestige accents. I’ve never encountered a language that didn’t have class signifiers (although I’ve never studied the utopian’s dream language, Esperanto 😉

    It’s the norm, worldwide.

    And it’s more than vocabulary. How does one walk, carry oneself; relax on a street corner or in a park. You can’t fake these habits. Today I was a little cold, so I stuck my hands into my front pockets. Then I remembered that a native lady somewhere had told not to do that, as it implied laziness (at least in her opinion).

    IMHO, non-natives cannot be trained.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Of course Russians have prestige accents. I’ve never encountered a language that didn’t have class signifiers (although I’ve never studied the utopian’s dream language, Esperanto 😉

    It’s the norm, worldwide.
     
    Esperanto, contra the Hoodoo General Don Lancaster, is in fact the native language of some, particularly notably George Soros, a first class monster. (If Madge is the Sizequeen General, Don's the Hoodoo General, which see). Whether there are enough native Esperantists and whether they know each other well enough to have cliques, who knows?

    And it’s more than vocabulary. How does one walk, carry oneself; relax on a street corner or in a park. You can’t fake these habits. Today I was a little cold, so I stuck my hands into my front pockets. Then I remembered that a native lady somewhere had told not to do that, as it implied laziness (at least in her opinion).

    IMHO, non-natives cannot be trained.

     

    Doing so is a big part of what intelligence agencies train people to do and the better ones are good at it. In the Cold War heyday the CIA at its "Farm" could select and train American farm kids to convincingly pass themselves off as a KGB officer from Minsk to real KGB officers from Minsk, and vice versa. Not everyone is trainable and it's a lot of work but that's what those organizations did. They went to the extent of finding Russian dentists, tailors, shoemakers, you name it so that these people would be dressed indistinguishably and their dental work would even pass muster.
    , @Anonymous
    Russian does NOT have class-specific accents. Sure enough, it does have regional accents - lots and lots of them. Prestige accents also DO NOT exist, for all intents and purposes. Sure, there is something called "Moscow accent", which is very fuzzy but then, many proles in Moscow would intone the exact same sounds as many rich Moscovites or fresh srtiver arrivals who bothered to imitate it. So, no big deal. Certainly nowhere close to England or New England.
  100. @Reg Cæsar

    Didn’t Russian used to have
     
    Speaking of degraded language... It's the homophonous use to. Writing takes more forethought than speech; why this error is so common is beyond me.

    Didn’t Russian used to have

    Speaking of degraded language… It’s the homophonous use to. Writing takes more forethought than speech; why this error is so common is beyond me.

    I think that typing is to blame. For example, I never confuse their and there while using a pen/pencil, but I do occasionally make that kind of error while typing. Friends of mine have noted making similar kinds of mistakes while at the keyboard.

    Writing takes more forethought than speech;

    I’m not sure that that’s true in the internet age. A lot of people nowadays write as they speak, with a kind of careless ease.

  101. @The Wild Geese Howard

    The best Korean movie I ever saw was The Handmaiden. Went into the theater determined to hate it, and was bowled over.
     
    I heard the girl-on-girl scenes in this were up there with Bound and Blue is the Warmest Color.

    Disobedience had some great….hmmm….cinematography, yeah, great cinematography….

  102. I couldn’t get through “Snowpiercer”. “Parasite” sounds like one I’ll give a miss.

  103. @Reg Cæsar

    Didn’t Russian used to have
     
    Speaking of degraded language... It's the homophonous use to. Writing takes more forethought than speech; why this error is so common is beyond me.

    Proofreading is another thing that’s harder to do while staring at a computer screen. To do a thorough job, I need paper. A friend of mine who works as an editor at a publishing house says that she’s the same way.

  104. @Tiny Duck
    Trump bood at world series

    Democrats like AOC ripping it up in congress

    demographic change continues

    Diversity in film getting promoted

    Black little mermaid

    Get Out and Slim and Queen domintating the box offfice

    Trump about to be impeached

    right winger racists getting deplatformed

    New York times holding white people and white supremacy accountable

    white privielge being discussed in pubic schoolss

    Dang it feels good to be progressive!

    You have to understand being impeached is not that big of a deal. Clinton was impeached and still finished his second term.

    Supposed oral sex from a female intern was considered to be more serious than the illegal war in Bosnia. The stained blue dress (and OJ’s show trial) did a marvelous job of keeping Bosnia out of the news cycle.

    Maybe if they impeach Trump before 11/2020, it might affect Trump’s candidacy for re-election. Might still win anyway. Who really cares about Congress?

    As we have seen, the meat sack that occupies the White House is just for show. The wars must go on. The crony kleptocracy must go on.

  105. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kibernetika
    Of course Russians have prestige accents. I've never encountered a language that didn't have class signifiers (although I've never studied the utopian's dream language, Esperanto ;)

    It's the norm, worldwide.

    And it's more than vocabulary. How does one walk, carry oneself; relax on a street corner or in a park. You can't fake these habits. Today I was a little cold, so I stuck my hands into my front pockets. Then I remembered that a native lady somewhere had told not to do that, as it implied laziness (at least in her opinion).

    IMHO, non-natives cannot be trained.

    Of course Russians have prestige accents. I’ve never encountered a language that didn’t have class signifiers (although I’ve never studied the utopian’s dream language, Esperanto 😉

    It’s the norm, worldwide.

    Esperanto, contra the Hoodoo General Don Lancaster, is in fact the native language of some, particularly notably George Soros, a first class monster. (If Madge is the Sizequeen General, Don’s the Hoodoo General, which see). Whether there are enough native Esperantists and whether they know each other well enough to have cliques, who knows?

    And it’s more than vocabulary. How does one walk, carry oneself; relax on a street corner or in a park. You can’t fake these habits. Today I was a little cold, so I stuck my hands into my front pockets. Then I remembered that a native lady somewhere had told not to do that, as it implied laziness (at least in her opinion).

    IMHO, non-natives cannot be trained.

    Doing so is a big part of what intelligence agencies train people to do and the better ones are good at it. In the Cold War heyday the CIA at its “Farm” could select and train American farm kids to convincingly pass themselves off as a KGB officer from Minsk to real KGB officers from Minsk, and vice versa. Not everyone is trainable and it’s a lot of work but that’s what those organizations did. They went to the extent of finding Russian dentists, tailors, shoemakers, you name it so that these people would be dressed indistinguishably and their dental work would even pass muster.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    Uh, the most famous KGB illegal didn't have it quite as easy as you suggest:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Barsky
    , @Kibernetika
    In the Cold War heyday the CIA at its “Farm” could select and train American farm kids to convincingly pass themselves off as a KGB officer from Minsk to real KGB officers from Minsk, and vice versa. Not everyone is trainable and it’s a lot of work but that’s what those organizations did.

    With all due respect, I can't agree. Perhaps a farm kid can be taught to sit around to monitor, translate and transcribe foreign-language materials, but "passing" as a native is something else entirely. We have a giant industry in the US training diplomats, unconventional diplomats and special operator types in foreign languages, but there's no alchemy that can teach an 18- to 23-year-old kid to speak a language -- one that he didn't hear growing up -- with native fluency.

    They went to the extent of finding Russian dentists, tailors, shoemakers, you name it so that these people would be dressed indistinguishably and their dental work would even pass muster.

    Yes, and that's still happening, but no non-native is going to pass a language test among native speakers who are paying attention.

  106. I like this SK zombie movie; maybe you will too.

    The DVD had an English translation; the YT version subtitles.

  107. @GermanReader2

    What would be some “right wing” German names? (I’m pretty sure people aren’t naming their boys Adolf.) And “left” ones?

    I’d like to cross check my German friends–whose kid’s names just seem pretty normal to me.
     
    Here is my estimate. Please note, that in a lot of cases you cannot tell the political leaning of the parents with a 100% accuracy, unless the people were born in the Former Eastern German Republic (more about that later). Especially some of the names I would assign to conservative parents (Alexander, Luisa) are quite popular at the moment for the rest of society as well.

    Conservative Germans: Older German names, that were already popular around 1900, mostly longer
    Examples: Maximilian (very popular in Bavaria), Alexander, Friedrich, etc. for boys
    Charlotte, Elisabeth, Luise/Luisa, Sophie/Sophia, Johanna, etc. for girls

    Green-Party-voting parents: Scandinavian names in a lot of cases
    Examples: Torben, Solveigh, etc.

    Very religious Christian parents: Names from the old testament
    Examples: Sarah, Rebekka, etc.

    Underclass Germans: English/Irish (mostly for boys) and French (mostly for girls) names
    Examples: Ricky, Steven, Kevin, Justin for boys ("Kevin is not a name, Kevin is a diagnosis")
    Chantal, Jacqueline, etc. for girls

    Regular Germans: Mostly shorter names, in a lot of cases vaguely Italian-sounding
    Examples: Mia, Lina, Lea, Hanna, .. for girls
    Ben, Jonas, Paul, Leon etc. for boys

    Historically, in the former Eastern German Republic people who were dissatisfied with the system gave their children American/French/English/Italian names, while people who were in favor of socialism gave their children Russian names.

    This is very interesting, and not entirely what I was expecting. Thanks much for posting it.

  108. @Anonymous

    Of course Russians have prestige accents. I’ve never encountered a language that didn’t have class signifiers (although I’ve never studied the utopian’s dream language, Esperanto 😉

    It’s the norm, worldwide.
     
    Esperanto, contra the Hoodoo General Don Lancaster, is in fact the native language of some, particularly notably George Soros, a first class monster. (If Madge is the Sizequeen General, Don's the Hoodoo General, which see). Whether there are enough native Esperantists and whether they know each other well enough to have cliques, who knows?

    And it’s more than vocabulary. How does one walk, carry oneself; relax on a street corner or in a park. You can’t fake these habits. Today I was a little cold, so I stuck my hands into my front pockets. Then I remembered that a native lady somewhere had told not to do that, as it implied laziness (at least in her opinion).

    IMHO, non-natives cannot be trained.

     

    Doing so is a big part of what intelligence agencies train people to do and the better ones are good at it. In the Cold War heyday the CIA at its "Farm" could select and train American farm kids to convincingly pass themselves off as a KGB officer from Minsk to real KGB officers from Minsk, and vice versa. Not everyone is trainable and it's a lot of work but that's what those organizations did. They went to the extent of finding Russian dentists, tailors, shoemakers, you name it so that these people would be dressed indistinguishably and their dental work would even pass muster.

    Uh, the most famous KGB illegal didn’t have it quite as easy as you suggest:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Barsky

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Pretty interesting story. Each side thought it was a little better than the other and both had successes and failures, some tragic, some now in retrospect funny.
  109. @Svevlad
    Eh, class accents is a very English thing, I don't think anyone else has that. I guess a population randomization would take care of that

    Well, in Spain and Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries of course you can tell class by accent, vocabulary, voice modulation, etc, etc. What, do you think only consumer status symbols are social class markers?

  110. @GermanReader2

    What would be some “right wing” German names? (I’m pretty sure people aren’t naming their boys Adolf.) And “left” ones?

    I’d like to cross check my German friends–whose kid’s names just seem pretty normal to me.
     
    Here is my estimate. Please note, that in a lot of cases you cannot tell the political leaning of the parents with a 100% accuracy, unless the people were born in the Former Eastern German Republic (more about that later). Especially some of the names I would assign to conservative parents (Alexander, Luisa) are quite popular at the moment for the rest of society as well.

    Conservative Germans: Older German names, that were already popular around 1900, mostly longer
    Examples: Maximilian (very popular in Bavaria), Alexander, Friedrich, etc. for boys
    Charlotte, Elisabeth, Luise/Luisa, Sophie/Sophia, Johanna, etc. for girls

    Green-Party-voting parents: Scandinavian names in a lot of cases
    Examples: Torben, Solveigh, etc.

    Very religious Christian parents: Names from the old testament
    Examples: Sarah, Rebekka, etc.

    Underclass Germans: English/Irish (mostly for boys) and French (mostly for girls) names
    Examples: Ricky, Steven, Kevin, Justin for boys ("Kevin is not a name, Kevin is a diagnosis")
    Chantal, Jacqueline, etc. for girls

    Regular Germans: Mostly shorter names, in a lot of cases vaguely Italian-sounding
    Examples: Mia, Lina, Lea, Hanna, .. for girls
    Ben, Jonas, Paul, Leon etc. for boys

    Historically, in the former Eastern German Republic people who were dissatisfied with the system gave their children American/French/English/Italian names, while people who were in favor of socialism gave their children Russian names.

    A German friend explained once that Claudia and Berta were lower class German names. His wife’s name is Monika, an acceptably higher class one. You forgot Christian names that transcend better the social chasms: Joseph, Maria, Gloria. Not a believer, are you.

  111. Parasyte – Toonami Promo – Adult Swim October 2015

  112. Some of the most interesting regional dialect ive never heard elsewhere is from the newton mass. village of nonantum.
    Some of it bled into our bordering neighborhood.One example is the word mush which could mean guy, dude or
    buddy as best i could tell. Example, me and mush are are gonna make a packy run you guys want anything?

  113. anon[372] • Disclaimer says:
    @Haole
    Once upon a time the upper class in the UK spoke french and the low class english. They werent the same people. Using french words in english is still consider high class. I ate vs I dined.

    Our cuss words in English are old anglo saxon words – dick, fuck, cunt, shit.
    The polite words are French – penis, copulate, vagina, excrement.
    Legacy of the Norman conquest in 1066.

    My grandmother, an Ozark farm wife who churned her own butter and made her own quilts, still said “Ye’uns,” as in “Ye’uns come in to supper”.
    I came across “Ye’uns” reading Chaucer. In Middle English the Kings and Queens said “Ye’uns.” The word hung on in the Ozark back country until the 20th century and is now completely gone from the language.

    • Replies: @Haole
    I thought it was "you uns" or you ones. A form of you all. I heard it when I was a kid in Missouri too.
  114. @The Wild Geese Howard
    Uh, the most famous KGB illegal didn't have it quite as easy as you suggest:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Barsky

    Pretty interesting story. Each side thought it was a little better than the other and both had successes and failures, some tragic, some now in retrospect funny.

  115. @Sam Coulton
    There is nothing in that quote to indicate that Lenin's family was not gutter trash.

    There is nothing in that quote to indicate that Lenin’s family was not gutter trash.

    Well, it does indicate that Lenin didn’t grow up in the gutters…..

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    I beg to differ: "middle class" in Imperial Russia was gutter.
  116. @Cortes
    Mason’s family wasn’t living in a hole in the road like the Yorkshiremen in the Monty Python sketch.

    From Wikipedia:

    Mason was born in Huddersfield, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, to Mabel Hattersley (Gaunt) and John Mason.[1]

    His father was a wealthy textile merchant. He was educated at Marlborough College, and earned a first in Architecture at Peterhouse, Cambridge, where he became involved in stock theatre companies in his spare time. Mason had no formal training in acting and initially embarked upon it for fun.”

    An entertaining piece providing an insight into the range of vocabulary of the English gentry is available in

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F***ing_Fulfords

    Mason’s family wasn’t living in a hole in the road like the Yorkshiremen in the Monty Python sketch.

    Wasn’t implying that they did; I was merely observing that there was a bit of Yorkshire in his voice.

  117. @GermanReader2

    What would be some “right wing” German names? (I’m pretty sure people aren’t naming their boys Adolf.) And “left” ones?

    I’d like to cross check my German friends–whose kid’s names just seem pretty normal to me.
     
    Here is my estimate. Please note, that in a lot of cases you cannot tell the political leaning of the parents with a 100% accuracy, unless the people were born in the Former Eastern German Republic (more about that later). Especially some of the names I would assign to conservative parents (Alexander, Luisa) are quite popular at the moment for the rest of society as well.

    Conservative Germans: Older German names, that were already popular around 1900, mostly longer
    Examples: Maximilian (very popular in Bavaria), Alexander, Friedrich, etc. for boys
    Charlotte, Elisabeth, Luise/Luisa, Sophie/Sophia, Johanna, etc. for girls

    Green-Party-voting parents: Scandinavian names in a lot of cases
    Examples: Torben, Solveigh, etc.

    Very religious Christian parents: Names from the old testament
    Examples: Sarah, Rebekka, etc.

    Underclass Germans: English/Irish (mostly for boys) and French (mostly for girls) names
    Examples: Ricky, Steven, Kevin, Justin for boys ("Kevin is not a name, Kevin is a diagnosis")
    Chantal, Jacqueline, etc. for girls

    Regular Germans: Mostly shorter names, in a lot of cases vaguely Italian-sounding
    Examples: Mia, Lina, Lea, Hanna, .. for girls
    Ben, Jonas, Paul, Leon etc. for boys

    Historically, in the former Eastern German Republic people who were dissatisfied with the system gave their children American/French/English/Italian names, while people who were in favor of socialism gave their children Russian names.

    What would you sat about the name Björn?

    If the wiki list of famous Björns is a good sample, the name is at least 25x as popular in Scandinavia as in Germany.

    Some of the “German Björns” are, on closer inspection, either of recent Scandinavian origin (e.g., this one) or from the far north of Germany, near Scandinavia (e.g, Björn Engholm, SPD politician, of Lübeck, a Baltic Hanseatic city).

    Anyway, we now have the case of Björn Höcke (recently the subject of discussion in Anatoly Karlin’s open thread [currently comment-181]). He is now a famous due to his success, since 2015, as an anti-Merkel insurgent political figure of the Right. Björn Höcke defeated the CDU (regionally, for now), and on a nationalist platform, despite the usual slanders, slurs, and hysterics directed against him. (His AfD took 22 of 90 seats in the new Landtag, more than the CDU [21 seats], in Thuringia this week.)

    I’ve heard German media often misquoted Björn Höcke as “Bernd Höcke” in the early years — because of uncommonness of the Björn name?

    This particular Björn’s father, who I can only suppose must have named him (or at the least endorsed the name choice) is said to have been a quiet ethnonationalist (a.k.a., a centrist of the past), whose parents were expelled from East Prussia in 1945. So why would the father have chosen “Björn” when his son was born in 1972 in W.Germany?

    The “Björn” choice does not fit with your

    Green-Party-voting parents: Scandinavian names in a lot of cases

    But that may be overruled by the father’s Baltic (East Prussia) origin.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Despite my grandfather being of 100% German extraction, I've gotten to know very few real Germans in my life, so I'm surprised that Björn could be an uncommon name in Germany, since the male German whose acquaintance I've most strongly made in my life is named Björn.
  118. @1661er
    I think the one that used accents to code social class more was "Crazy Rich Asian." It got a lot of flak by coding people from Hokien speaking family as speak English like rich low class Blacks. Then the high class rich speak in Mandarins. With Michelle Yeoh's character had sob story about her not being accepted by her Mandarin speaking in-laws due to her Cantonese speaking background, and had to let her Mother-in-law raise her son.

    That' really not how Singaporean society worked.

    What I found most odd about “Crazy Rich Asians” was that not even one Singaporean character in the film sounded Singaporean. At all.

    They all sounded like they had boarded at Eton.

    • Replies: @1661er
    Well, in my experience, Singaporean professional class don't exactly talk Singalish ending in "lah" when talk to outsider or even each other when outsiders are around. Don't have contact with the top end elites as depicted in the film, but that's not out of questioned that some of them to go to boarding school in UK. Even the poor SAF Captain who married into the family could had been a Presidential Scholar that went to school in UK.

    In my experience, professional/upper-middle class Singaporeans spend a lot of times/efforts to differentiate themselves from their "kampung" countrymen.
  119. @The Wild Geese Howard

    The best Korean movie I ever saw was The Handmaiden. Went into the theater determined to hate it, and was bowled over.
     
    I heard the girl-on-girl scenes in this were up there with Bound and Blue is the Warmest Color.

    What kind of perv do you take me for? I watched it for the sake of art!!! 🙂 I had no spoilers going in, so I did not know what to expect, or to watch out for sexual content.

    Ahem, actually they were very tame (basic erotica) compared to Blue is the Warmest Color (La vie d’Adele, as I saw it), which was the closest thing to porn I have ever seen coming out of cinema until Love. Actually, I am lying – google Lucia y el sexo. Pretty soon, there will be no shock value left in sex in cinema. I have not seen Bound.

  120. @SunBakedSuburb
    Perhaps you can help me Romanian: It is well known by now that the governor of California is nosferatu. He even sports a Christopher Lee-like hairdo. All that's missing is the cape. I mock him by referring to him as Dracula. In your land, would that be considered an insult to compare this Napa Valley jackass to the great Vlad the Impaler? Maybe I should call the jackass Count Yorga, in reference to the low-rent LA vampire?

    Of course it is. Vlad was a patriot, at least by the standards of feudal times, and is common meme material around here for anti-governmental messages, what with his impaling of local noblemen for corruption and treason. He was also very non-PC, as evidenced by the fight against his brother, Radu the Beautiful, whom the Ottomans wanted on the throne instead of him and who had went native while a royal hostage in Constantinople – loyal companion to Mehmed II, head of Ottoman troops. Hell, if you google Radu cel Frumos and Mehmed, the Internet is full of gay art (Yaoi style). The Ottomans called it Greek love.

    Yorga is too obscure for me, though the Internet tells me its Aboriginal slang for woman as well, so it might work for you. But do you really want to go down that rabbit’s hole of sensitivity?

    Newsom does not really that prominent widow’s peak that would be stereotypical imagery.

    • Replies: @Alden
    Vlad was a great hero of the European people.
  121. @Anon
    As an American listening to the BBC over the decades I'm shocked at how the received English of the announcers has degraded to street trash-level soccer fan or knocked-up teen girl delinquent dialect.

    This is the BBC’s deliberate policy. The usual suspects doing the usual thing.

  122. @RohadtMagyar
    No class difference? No way.

    That's certainly not true in Hungarian or German, and I doubt it is true elsewhere in CEE.

    You can tell if someone has been educated or grew up with a Buda accent in Hungarian in how they conjugate the "-ikes" verbs. That's a very distinct marker.

    Also, there is also a distinct countryside accent, often typified by dropping, for example, the "L" in a word like bolt (English: store) -- so it sound like boat.

    Hungarians like to watch dubbed (instead of subtitled movies) and when they dub, they miss out on a lot of meta-data like class or nationality.

    I've watched many a Hollywood movie with the actors speaking in various accents, standard American, lower-class Scottish and South African etc etc -- all of which signal this sort of meta-data to Anglophone audience --- and it is lost when it is dubbed all in Standard Hungarian.

    The dubbing craze is catching up in Romania. We used subtitles exclusively until a few years ago. Now, they are dubbing movies for children (which is very bad for any incipient English language skills).

    • Replies: @RohadtMagyar
    Dubbing is a terrible thing. It really hurts English acquisition.
  123. An entire movie based around a Nick Drake song. Looking forward to the sequel, “Free Ride.”

  124. @Reg Cæsar

    For instance, I don’t care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don.
     
    British translations of classical comedies and European farces would use Scottish accents as class markers. Or maybe they were northern, and just looked Scottish to me.

    It's a striking experience to hear Joseph Pearce discuss elevated literary and religious topics in his East End Cockney. Perhaps that's why he moved to "Amevica". Too many stifled chuckles back home.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA-CscQuHXE

    Re: Scottish accent as low class marker

    I will never forget a translation of Lysistrata that I read, where the translator had the Spartans speak in an obvious Scottish dialect. Not knowing classical Greek, I wonder now if Aristophanes, somehow, used some linguistic nuance to distinguish them from the Athenians in the original.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    I imagine Sparta and Athens had different dialects so it probably wouldn't have been hard to do.

    As for the Scottish-accented Spartans, it makes sense given their reputations as warriors. Today's Scots are rather tame but as recently as the 18th century they still deserved their reputation as rebellious warriors.
    , @syonredux

    Not knowing classical Greek, I wonder now if Aristophanes, somehow, used some linguistic nuance to distinguish them from the Athenians in the original.
     
    He did. Aristophanes has the Spartan women speak with the Doric accent, which sounded quite harsh and rough to Athenians. Brits tend to use Scots accents as the Anglophone equivalent in their translations. Yank translators, in contrast, tend to use either Texan or Appalachian.
  125. @Hail
    What would you sat about the name Björn?

    If the wiki list of famous Björns is a good sample, the name is at least 25x as popular in Scandinavia as in Germany.

    Some of the "German Björns" are, on closer inspection, either of recent Scandinavian origin (e.g., this one) or from the far north of Germany, near Scandinavia (e.g, Björn Engholm, SPD politician, of Lübeck, a Baltic Hanseatic city).

    Anyway, we now have the case of Björn Höcke (recently the subject of discussion in Anatoly Karlin's open thread [currently comment-181]). He is now a famous due to his success, since 2015, as an anti-Merkel insurgent political figure of the Right. Björn Höcke defeated the CDU (regionally, for now), and on a nationalist platform, despite the usual slanders, slurs, and hysterics directed against him. (His AfD took 22 of 90 seats in the new Landtag, more than the CDU [21 seats], in Thuringia this week.)

    I've heard German media often misquoted Björn Höcke as "Bernd Höcke" in the early years -- because of uncommonness of the Björn name?

    This particular Björn's father, who I can only suppose must have named him (or at the least endorsed the name choice) is said to have been a quiet ethnonationalist (a.k.a., a centrist of the past), whose parents were expelled from East Prussia in 1945. So why would the father have chosen "Björn" when his son was born in 1972 in W.Germany?

    The "Björn" choice does not fit with your


    Green-Party-voting parents: Scandinavian names in a lot of cases
     
    But that may be overruled by the father's Baltic (East Prussia) origin.

    Despite my grandfather being of 100% German extraction, I’ve gotten to know very few real Germans in my life, so I’m surprised that Björn could be an uncommon name in Germany, since the male German whose acquaintance I’ve most strongly made in my life is named Björn.

  126. @Kolya Krassotkin
    Re: Scottish accent as low class marker

    I will never forget a translation of Lysistrata that I read, where the translator had the Spartans speak in an obvious Scottish dialect. Not knowing classical Greek, I wonder now if Aristophanes, somehow, used some linguistic nuance to distinguish them from the Athenians in the original.

    I imagine Sparta and Athens had different dialects so it probably wouldn’t have been hard to do.

    As for the Scottish-accented Spartans, it makes sense given their reputations as warriors. Today’s Scots are rather tame but as recently as the 18th century they still deserved their reputation as rebellious warriors.

  127. @theMann
    You may have brought up a genuinely interesting linguistic subject - the interplay of regional and class dialects in a number of languages
    .

    For instance, I don't care how educated you are, popping loose with a Mancunian accent you could cut with a saw will not impress an Oxford Don. Similarly, even considering the difference in vocabularies, an uneducated Mexican could never pass as an Educated Spaniard ( or Argentinian) for any length of time. I have certainly had Spaniards fall over laughing at my Tex-Mex accent. And German has so many regional accents they morph into different languages. Korean also has a wide variety of regional accents, morphing into a separate language on Jeju Island. I suspect a Seoul Korean looks upon some of those accents as pure Hillbilly, or the Korean equivalent.


    In any case, I doubt there is any such thing as a language without some kind Class markers in it. It is just part of the Human condition, people have to have other people to look down on. On the other hand, centralized Mass Media tend to ruthlessly homogenize language. On the whole, a very interesting subject.

    This Britannica article has some interesting general comments on dialects, mostly of the regional kind, but also of the social and generational kind:
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/dialect/Social-dialects

  128. @Lot
    Best movie lately was Dunkirk.

    Anyone planning on seeing Midway in IMAX? I’ve never seen a hollywood feature in imax, just short educational movies when I was a tyke.

    I wasn’t that impressed back then. Bigger screen, sit further back, don’t they cancel out?

    Anyone planning on seeing Midway in IMAX?

    I do. The trailers don’t look like the story is all that great, but the action scenes look nice.

    IMAX has a bigger screen but also better sound.

  129. OT
    Mollie Tibbetts’s killer is going to walk (just like Kate Steinle’s killer) because he was not read his Miranda rights in Spanish.
    https://nypost.com/2019/10/21/mollie-tibbetts-accused-killer-not-properly-read-miranda-rights-court-docs/

    • Replies: @Alden
    To be expected. Thank judicial supremacy for that.
  130. @Moses
    What I found most odd about "Crazy Rich Asians" was that not even one Singaporean character in the film sounded Singaporean. At all.

    They all sounded like they had boarded at Eton.

    Well, in my experience, Singaporean professional class don’t exactly talk Singalish ending in “lah” when talk to outsider or even each other when outsiders are around. Don’t have contact with the top end elites as depicted in the film, but that’s not out of questioned that some of them to go to boarding school in UK. Even the poor SAF Captain who married into the family could had been a Presidential Scholar that went to school in UK.

    In my experience, professional/upper-middle class Singaporeans spend a lot of times/efforts to differentiate themselves from their “kampung” countrymen.

    • Replies: @Moses
    Maybe we’re talking about 2 different Singapores.

    I have yet to meet a single Singaporean who talks like an upper class Brit the way they all did in “Crazy Rich Asians.”

    Been to Singapore many times, done business with Singaporeans, met many high level professionals.

    Not one spoke like that. All sounded distinctly Singaporean. Even the ones educated abroad for uni.
  131. @houston 1992
    will Siri and its equivalents cause accent convergence? I can imagine that a regional politicialn will want his kids to be able to speak with a regional accent e.g. Texas accent so that his kids can inherit his Deep State seat.
    I can see consumers demanding a Siri product that is accent regional.

    Accent management matters: Tony Blair changed his accent from RP to Estuary English to promote the facade of being a regular bloke; Thatcher took elocution lessons to shift from blue collar London Tory to RP to assure the Tory Establishment that she was one of them. W Bush probably emphasized his Texan accent when campaigning as part of his authentic spiel.

    Tony Blair did this a lot. He also sounded Scottish when addressing Scots audiences, Australian when visiting that country (he lived there as a kid), and when talking to Americans he turned into Hugh Grant.

  132. @Kolya Krassotkin
    Re: Scottish accent as low class marker

    I will never forget a translation of Lysistrata that I read, where the translator had the Spartans speak in an obvious Scottish dialect. Not knowing classical Greek, I wonder now if Aristophanes, somehow, used some linguistic nuance to distinguish them from the Athenians in the original.

    Not knowing classical Greek, I wonder now if Aristophanes, somehow, used some linguistic nuance to distinguish them from the Athenians in the original.

    He did. Aristophanes has the Spartan women speak with the Doric accent, which sounded quite harsh and rough to Athenians. Brits tend to use Scots accents as the Anglophone equivalent in their translations. Yank translators, in contrast, tend to use either Texan or Appalachian.

  133. Just saw Parasite. I liked it. Slyly funny until the unexpected end. Only downside is that it’s kinda long at 2:12.

  134. Sam Coulton [AKA "S. S. S. M. Coulton"] says:
    @syonredux

    There is nothing in that quote to indicate that Lenin’s family was not gutter trash.
     
    Well, it does indicate that Lenin didn't grow up in the gutters.....

    I beg to differ: “middle class” in Imperial Russia was gutter.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    I beg to differ: “middle class” in Imperial Russia was gutter.
     
    Then what were the proles?
  135. @Lurker
    I was reading somewhere about the emergence of class based accents in Britain. That they couldn't really have existed before there were schools. Before that the young nobles were tutored at home and would have the same accents as the people who surrounded them. So if you were a lord in the Highlands, or Yorkshire, or Cornwall - those are the respective accents you would have.

    It's only once the elite were schooled together that an elite accent could emerge.

    It sounds plausible, no idea if true.

    I’ve heard similar things about “received pronunciation” but it seems to me that within whatever accent one is raised, learning to read would have a big impact on how one speaks. I remember changing how I pronounced things once I knew how they were spelt. I stopped saying “sall” for “saw,” for example.

  136. @songbird

    young nobles were tutored at home and would have the same accents as the people who surrounded them. So if you were a lord in the Highlands
     
    In the Highlands, I believe they practiced fosterage, as did the native Irish.

    The children of nobles would be sent out of the home at a very young age, often into the homes of people who weren't nobles but retainers or tenants. Partly, it was for their education; partly it was to build loyalty, for instance, between foster-brothers. In return, the foster family would get some benefit, like a certain number of cows.

    The practice was ancient and lasted a long time. Daniel O'Connell was actually fostered in his youth.

    Montaigne was brought up for a while with a peasant family on his father’s estate. He remembers it fondly.

  137. @AnotherDad


    In my experience the clothes and the behavior are much bigger markers of class in Germany. You can also gain a lot of information (including political leaning) by the names Germans give their children.
     
    What would be some "right wing" German names? (I'm pretty sure people aren't naming their boys Adolf.) And "left" ones?

    I'd like to cross check my German friends--whose kid's names just seem pretty normal to me.

    (BTW "more kids!" would be what i'd like to see from the Germans whether the names are traditional or not.)

    What would be some “right wing” German names? (I’m pretty sure people aren’t naming their boys Adolf.)

    I have never met someone named Adolf in Germany, who was younger than 80. Someone told me, that in Austria people still call some boys Adolf, but in Germany this is vanishingly rare. In my opinion, you should not name your child Adolf, but it will make his life a lot harder. For instance, a friend of worked for an organisation, that placed Germans, who wanted to spend a year of high school in another country with guest-families and looked after them abroad.
    One of her charges was a boy named Adolf. By her account, he was a nice young man. Unfortunatedly for him, no family wanted to take him and she thought this was because of his name.
    Eventually, they found some family in Argentina, who took him in. (After WW2 a lot of Nazis fled to Argentina. We both suspected his guest-family had some Nazi-roots)

  138. @Sam Coulton
    There is nothing in that quote to indicate that Lenin's family was not gutter trash.

    His brother went off to a free state university. Joined a revolutionary group and was hanged for it. Both the state university professors and the public school teachers and administrators were heavily involved in 19th century Russian revolutionary politics

  139. @J.Ross
    OT
    Mollie Tibbetts's killer is going to walk (just like Kate Steinle's killer) because he was not read his Miranda rights in Spanish.
    https://nypost.com/2019/10/21/mollie-tibbetts-accused-killer-not-properly-read-miranda-rights-court-docs/

    To be expected. Thank judicial supremacy for that.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    If only an infallible judge from a family [sic] court were in charge of things, he'd handle it all properly....
  140. @Romanian
    Of course it is. Vlad was a patriot, at least by the standards of feudal times, and is common meme material around here for anti-governmental messages, what with his impaling of local noblemen for corruption and treason. He was also very non-PC, as evidenced by the fight against his brother, Radu the Beautiful, whom the Ottomans wanted on the throne instead of him and who had went native while a royal hostage in Constantinople - loyal companion to Mehmed II, head of Ottoman troops. Hell, if you google Radu cel Frumos and Mehmed, the Internet is full of gay art (Yaoi style). The Ottomans called it Greek love.

    Yorga is too obscure for me, though the Internet tells me its Aboriginal slang for woman as well, so it might work for you. But do you really want to go down that rabbit's hole of sensitivity?

    Newsom does not really that prominent widow's peak that would be stereotypical imagery.

    Vlad was a great hero of the European people.

  141. @Anonymous

    Of course Russians have prestige accents. I’ve never encountered a language that didn’t have class signifiers (although I’ve never studied the utopian’s dream language, Esperanto 😉

    It’s the norm, worldwide.
     
    Esperanto, contra the Hoodoo General Don Lancaster, is in fact the native language of some, particularly notably George Soros, a first class monster. (If Madge is the Sizequeen General, Don's the Hoodoo General, which see). Whether there are enough native Esperantists and whether they know each other well enough to have cliques, who knows?

    And it’s more than vocabulary. How does one walk, carry oneself; relax on a street corner or in a park. You can’t fake these habits. Today I was a little cold, so I stuck my hands into my front pockets. Then I remembered that a native lady somewhere had told not to do that, as it implied laziness (at least in her opinion).

    IMHO, non-natives cannot be trained.

     

    Doing so is a big part of what intelligence agencies train people to do and the better ones are good at it. In the Cold War heyday the CIA at its "Farm" could select and train American farm kids to convincingly pass themselves off as a KGB officer from Minsk to real KGB officers from Minsk, and vice versa. Not everyone is trainable and it's a lot of work but that's what those organizations did. They went to the extent of finding Russian dentists, tailors, shoemakers, you name it so that these people would be dressed indistinguishably and their dental work would even pass muster.

    In the Cold War heyday the CIA at its “Farm” could select and train American farm kids to convincingly pass themselves off as a KGB officer from Minsk to real KGB officers from Minsk, and vice versa. Not everyone is trainable and it’s a lot of work but that’s what those organizations did.

    With all due respect, I can’t agree. Perhaps a farm kid can be taught to sit around to monitor, translate and transcribe foreign-language materials, but “passing” as a native is something else entirely. We have a giant industry in the US training diplomats, unconventional diplomats and special operator types in foreign languages, but there’s no alchemy that can teach an 18- to 23-year-old kid to speak a language — one that he didn’t hear growing up — with native fluency.

    They went to the extent of finding Russian dentists, tailors, shoemakers, you name it so that these people would be dressed indistinguishably and their dental work would even pass muster.

    Yes, and that’s still happening, but no non-native is going to pass a language test among native speakers who are paying attention.

  142. @1661er
    Well, in my experience, Singaporean professional class don't exactly talk Singalish ending in "lah" when talk to outsider or even each other when outsiders are around. Don't have contact with the top end elites as depicted in the film, but that's not out of questioned that some of them to go to boarding school in UK. Even the poor SAF Captain who married into the family could had been a Presidential Scholar that went to school in UK.

    In my experience, professional/upper-middle class Singaporeans spend a lot of times/efforts to differentiate themselves from their "kampung" countrymen.

    Maybe we’re talking about 2 different Singapores.

    I have yet to meet a single Singaporean who talks like an upper class Brit the way they all did in “Crazy Rich Asians.”

    Been to Singapore many times, done business with Singaporeans, met many high level professionals.

    Not one spoke like that. All sounded distinctly Singaporean. Even the ones educated abroad for uni.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Not one spoke like that. All sounded distinctly Singaporean. Even the ones educated abroad for uni.

     

    Same here. I know a quite a few Singaporeans, some of whom are (at least) upper-middle class, and their accents are immediately recognizable.

    There may be a truly upper-class subset of Singaporeans who speak the Queen's, but they don't invite me to their parties.
  143. @Moses
    Maybe we’re talking about 2 different Singapores.

    I have yet to meet a single Singaporean who talks like an upper class Brit the way they all did in “Crazy Rich Asians.”

    Been to Singapore many times, done business with Singaporeans, met many high level professionals.

    Not one spoke like that. All sounded distinctly Singaporean. Even the ones educated abroad for uni.

    Not one spoke like that. All sounded distinctly Singaporean. Even the ones educated abroad for uni.

    Same here. I know a quite a few Singaporeans, some of whom are (at least) upper-middle class, and their accents are immediately recognizable.

    There may be a truly upper-class subset of Singaporeans who speak the Queen’s, but they don’t invite me to their parties.

  144. @anon
    Our cuss words in English are old anglo saxon words - dick, fuck, cunt, shit.
    The polite words are French - penis, copulate, vagina, excrement.
    Legacy of the Norman conquest in 1066.

    My grandmother, an Ozark farm wife who churned her own butter and made her own quilts, still said "Ye'uns," as in "Ye'uns come in to supper".
    I came across "Ye'uns" reading Chaucer. In Middle English the Kings and Queens said "Ye'uns." The word hung on in the Ozark back country until the 20th century and is now completely gone from the language.

    I thought it was “you uns” or you ones. A form of you all. I heard it when I was a kid in Missouri too.

  145. @Sam Coulton
    I beg to differ: "middle class" in Imperial Russia was gutter.

    I beg to differ: “middle class” in Imperial Russia was gutter.

    Then what were the proles?

  146. How much do Americans have class accents? I wish I had a better ear for accents. A guy who worked for me was super upper class. His grandfather was Adlai Stevenson’s college roommate and owned pretty much Tom Buchanan’s estate on Long Island Sound. But I can’t remember his accent

    Depends. In places like the South, NYC, and New England, the General American accent is a status marker, a sign that the speaker is of middle class+ origins. When I was living in Boston, I noticed how people in certain “prolish” occupations (cops, service industry, etc) all had classic Boston accents (“Pahhk the cahh in Hahhvahhd yahhd”). Lawyers, MDs, and bank employees, in contrast, all spoke GA.

    Obviously, GA as a signal of status doesn’t really work in places like the Midwest and the West Coast, where the majority of the Anglo-Whites speak with GA accents. There, class is more a matter of good grammar and clear diction.

    Pre-’45, things were different. Back then, there were elite local accents:tidewater Southern, Boston Brahmin, etc.But those accents have largely died out.

  147. @Romanian
    The dubbing craze is catching up in Romania. We used subtitles exclusively until a few years ago. Now, they are dubbing movies for children (which is very bad for any incipient English language skills).

    Dubbing is a terrible thing. It really hurts English acquisition.

  148. @Alden
    To be expected. Thank judicial supremacy for that.

    If only an infallible judge from a family [sic] court were in charge of things, he’d handle it all properly….

  149. Steve,

    I just asked my Korean wife about the accents/diction in “Parasite.” She said both families have the same accent, but the parasite family speak like poor people . I asked her to elaborate on this. Here’s my take: in America, a poor black person begging on the streets in a major city might have any number of regional accents, in addition to his slang/wrong grammar. She said both families have Seoul accents, but the parasite family speaks how poor people speak.

    I would add this about the movie: I laughed quite a bit throughout it. My wife watches a fair amount of Korean TV, and I’ve seen a fair few of their movies. Koreans love watching Koreans eat. They also love physical comedy and drinking.

    I loved the opening scene of the dad saying to leave the windows open while guys outside sprayed pesticides, to get free fumigation of their bug-infested basement apartment. Unlike most movies about class, “Parasite” was not sympathetic to the poor family. The rich family was basically portrayed as decent/dimwitted folks, while their loyal servant had her own crazy secrets.

    • Replies: @Noah
    It's not really a "My Fair Lady" sorta thing, more like "What About Bob?".
  150. @Noah
    Steve,

    I just asked my Korean wife about the accents/diction in "Parasite." She said both families have the same accent, but the parasite family speak like poor people . I asked her to elaborate on this. Here's my take: in America, a poor black person begging on the streets in a major city might have any number of regional accents, in addition to his slang/wrong grammar. She said both families have Seoul accents, but the parasite family speaks how poor people speak.

    I would add this about the movie: I laughed quite a bit throughout it. My wife watches a fair amount of Korean TV, and I've seen a fair few of their movies. Koreans love watching Koreans eat. They also love physical comedy and drinking.

    I loved the opening scene of the dad saying to leave the windows open while guys outside sprayed pesticides, to get free fumigation of their bug-infested basement apartment. Unlike most movies about class, "Parasite" was not sympathetic to the poor family. The rich family was basically portrayed as decent/dimwitted folks, while their loyal servant had her own crazy secrets.

    It’s not really a “My Fair Lady” sorta thing, more like “What About Bob?”.

  151. Anonymous[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kibernetika
    Of course Russians have prestige accents. I've never encountered a language that didn't have class signifiers (although I've never studied the utopian's dream language, Esperanto ;)

    It's the norm, worldwide.

    And it's more than vocabulary. How does one walk, carry oneself; relax on a street corner or in a park. You can't fake these habits. Today I was a little cold, so I stuck my hands into my front pockets. Then I remembered that a native lady somewhere had told not to do that, as it implied laziness (at least in her opinion).

    IMHO, non-natives cannot be trained.

    Russian does NOT have class-specific accents. Sure enough, it does have regional accents – lots and lots of them. Prestige accents also DO NOT exist, for all intents and purposes. Sure, there is something called “Moscow accent”, which is very fuzzy but then, many proles in Moscow would intone the exact same sounds as many rich Moscovites or fresh srtiver arrivals who bothered to imitate it. So, no big deal. Certainly nowhere close to England or New England.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS
PastClassics
The “war hero” candidate buried information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
Our Reigning Political Puppets, Dancing to Invisible Strings