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In The Simpsons, whenever a large crowd of Springfield citizens assemble, they are sure to be almost immediately swayed into irrational mob behavior, whether a soccer riot or building a monorail.

But how often does that really happen?

T. Greer tweets:

T. Greer
@Scholars_Stage

There is a common theme to disaster response in 20th century American and European history. It goes like this: worse than the disaster will be panic and disorder. Our number one concern is stop to prevent panic and disorder.

In reality most disaster never create much panic, and panic does not result in violence and rioting when it occurs anyway, it results in paralysis. Most sharp, sudden disasters actually have the opposite effect: they produce spontaneous bouts of charitable, brotherly behavior.

Rebecca Solnit has an interesting book on this called “A Paradise Built in Hell,” for those interested.

A lot of these misconceptions go back to a once extremely influential book by a Gustave Le Bon, published in 1895. The book’s thesis was that humans in crowds were naturally full of “Impulsiveness, irritability, incapacity to reason, and the absence of judgement of the critical spirit… By mere fact he forms a part of the crowd a man descends several rungs of civilization. Isolated he may be a cultivated individual; in a crowd he is a barbarian.”

In @LawDavF’s book Strategy: A History (which I review here) Freedman describes how these ideas were very influential in the development of air-power theory in the early 1920s and 30s.

To put complex ideas crudely, there was this notion that bombing campaigns would be a complete revolution in warfare, as the threat of bombing cities would turn the masses and crowds of industrialized cities into panicked crowds. Disorder would ensue and governments would fall.

Italian general Giulio Douhet’s book in the early 1920s predicted the next war would be one of strategic bombing of cities, which would induce morale collapse among the civilians and riots that overthrow their government.

Italian elites quickly overthrew Mussolini once Allied bombing of Rome from Sicily had begun in 1943, but British and German civilians proved to be made of sterner stuff.

The theory was tested first in the Blitz in London and in the Japanese bombing campaign over Chongqing. Both cases proved the same result: the bombed did not tear each other apart in fear. The bombings had the opposite effect. It brought the bombed together.

That is what shared trauma tends to do. The exceptions are long disasters that slowly wear away at civic society over time as more and more of life becomes a zero sum game. Cities under siege have this problem; so do societies suffering from inflation.

But by and large disaster brings out the best in people, not the worst. So much so, in fact, that it is common to back at the old days of danger and sacrifice years later with a sense of nostalgia for the sense of “we are all in this together” that the people then had.

This is not to minimize the toll of disaster. People die. Things break down. Things are terrible.

But almost never because of “panic.”

Which raises the question: if so few disasters cause panics, and if so few panics cause disorder, then why is this idea so prevalent? Why does the brain worm stick?

The most convincing answer I have heard is this: those who fear panic are those with authority – cultural or political. They fear loss of that control. They imagine terrible things happening once the rules they defend no longer govern society, no matter how temporarily. …

The real lesson to take: if you are an authority–a government, say, or even a newspaper–you should be far less concerned with stopping panic and getting people to follow standard norms of behavior, and far more concerned with *actually alleviating the disaster at hand.*

 
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  1. Which is one more reason why the Trump speech on Wednesday was so idiotic. He really had no reason to reassure the public with false promises.

    • Replies: @Polynikes
    Sort of a catch-22. If he tries to ignore it, the media will just use an absence of a comment to fan the flames of hysteria. Usually addressing it head on is the best course of action.
    , @indocon
    As it has been pointed out by several other folks, this press conference was a perfect opportunity for him to bring in all the favorite topics in a single theme - trade, border controls, immigration. But he is fixated on the stock market as the singular metric for his perceived success, this very well may be something that takes him down finally.

    In a hypothetical scenario where the stock market goes to zero, the deplorable's on our side still have their land, all the minerals on those lands, trucks, guns, and gold. Their people's net worth goes down to zero except some fine wine in their wine caves.
  2. Anonymous[709] • Disclaimer says:

    The 1939 Japanese bombing of Chungking (as it was then romanized) did seem to provoke some panic among Chinese residents:

    While white residents seem to have held more to the “Keep calm and carry on” ethos:

    Stephen Hosmer’s RAND study, Psychological Effects of U.S. Air Operations in Four Wars, notes, “Air attacks on strategic targets in World War II generally fell short of producing the psychological results their planners hoped for. This was particularly true of Germany, where the Allied bombing of cities failed to deny labor to German industry. However, the psychological effects of the Allied bombing did speed Japan’s decision to surrender and helped shape Italy’s decision to seek a peace accord.”

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    I can't count how many times I've seen high, middle and lowbrow people argue that bombing civilians in WW2 was righteous and efficacious. They ask: "if the Greatest Generation™ firebombed civilians in the Good War™, then who are we to fret and quibble over the bombing of Vietnamese, Iraqis, Serbs, Syrians, etc, etc"?
    , @obwandiyag
    Rand. Hardehar. Really? Rand. Hardehar.
    , @HammerJack
    Imagine a world where white people could just board plane and escape to somewhere safe.
  3. Hmmmmmm, also explains the whole, “The populists are coming, the populists are coming!” panic we’ve been hearing out of certain quarters also.

    • Agree: bomag, James N. Kennett
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Steverino will lead this crusade from a desk in a windiowless closet draped in a filthy terrycloth dressing gown shaking off last nights merlot.

    * godfather of the alt rite* damn I should of used that in high school he thought.
    , @ben tillman

    Which raises the question: if so few disasters cause panics, and if so few panics cause disorder, then why is this idea so prevalent? Why does the brain worm stick?

    The most convincing answer I have heard is this: those who fear panic are those with authority – cultural or political. They fear loss of that control.
     
    That's not bad. A better answer: Those who fear panic are those who have caused (negligently or intentionally) the thing that might create panic, and they don't want to be called to account.
  4. Ah, ye olde “people are really good deep down” canard. That’s why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.

    I know if COVID-19 sweeps through the streets here, MY first priority will totally be walking straight into heavily infected areas to distribute blankets, cough drops, and my limited stock of emergency food and water. Brotherly love, folks! Count on it!

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    What do Black Friday crowds have to do with this? What disaster is that phenomenon the aftermath of?

    Anyway, I lived in Greenwich Village on 9/11, and people were very charitable indeed.
    , @DoopDeep
    At least 2/3s of your examples are black misbehavior.
    , @Mr. Anon

    That’s why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.
     
    The videos of Hurricane aftermaths in this country usually show people calmly going about the business of picking up their lives. Hurricane Katrina was something different, but then the demographics of New Orleans were somewhat different. And Black Friday riots are.............usually aptly named.

    Are you sensing a pattern here yet?
    , @Aldon
    If the liberal can't accept inborn differences in behavior between the races he just falls into juvenile "ugh, I hate this world."
    , @Art Deco
    Ah, ye olde “people are really good deep down” canard. T

    No, it's the 'people's shortcomings have boundaries' non-canard. Your state in life is such that that appears to bother you.
    , @Joe Stalin
    "I know if COVID-19 sweeps through the streets here, MY first priority will totally be walking straight into heavily infected areas to distribute blankets, cough drops, and my limited stock of emergency food and water. Brotherly love, folks! Count on it!"

    Of course. The first thing Whitey thinks of is to help a Black Man in need.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tSi-wyuccs
  5. I remember watching “Lost” (a series about a plane crashing on an uninhabited island, for the young ones) as a teenager, with my eyes rolling almost backwards into my head at the way they depicted people behaving. I even remember having debates with hardened leftists about the idiocy of the story. The left in my experience, really believes this because THEY would behave like that, maladjusted as they are.

    In reality, when disaster strikes, people are alert, calm and efficient, and you will rapidly have a leader emerging, who will be voted simply by people obeying his sensible suggestions of action to be taken.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Also depends on the nature of the threat. Some days it was a polar bear, sometimes it was a doomsday bunker going critical.

    https://youtu.be/SMxmFAD_-WU

    https://youtu.be/IBxW11oFrpg

    The show was intriguing to watch. Especially the early seasons.
    , @Tiny Duck
    Um you do know dont you that whites are notorious for rioting and mayhem at the slightest provocation.

    See the Tulsa massacre
  6. A lot of these misconceptions go back to a once extremely influential book by a Gustave Le Bon, published in 1895. The book’s thesis was that humans in crowds were naturally full of “Impulsiveness, irritability, incapacity to reason, and the absence of judgement of the critical spirit… By mere fact he forms a part of the crowd a man descends several rungs of civilization. Isolated he may be a cultivated individual; in a crowd he is a barbarian.”

    Long time since I read Le Bon, but as far as I recall, he had nothing to say about disasters – nor, more specifically, about panicked crowds who form in response to disasters. Rather, he was concerned with the sort of angry mob that suddenly forms and, say, storms a palace and drags everyone wearing a powdered wig through the streets, or grab their pangas and start killing Tutsis. If you’ve ever seen a group of Inkatha-supporting Zulus who starts running through a township, killing anyone suspected of being an ANC supporter (or vice versa), you won’t be in much doubt that Le Bon had a point. Pretty scary sight, a mob like that, and rather difficult to stop, once it starts rolling.

    • Agree: ben tillman
    • Replies: @utu
    I agree. Le Bon was correct.
    , @Anon
    Is not the correct answer “both”? Or are we talking percentages?

    What comes to mind is of course “A Tale of 2 cities”. It weaves stories of immense personal pain, innocence, love, fortitude and sheer evil against the backdrop of despair and bestiality that was the French Revolution.

    Always amazes me how saccharine Dickens can make the hairs on my neck stand up. But it’s Lent, when giving up small pleasures serves as a reminder that this life is not about pleasure. It’s about greatness.
  7. It all depends on *who* is being bombed, flooded, besieged, earth-quaked etc etc.

    Compare and contrast Hurricane Katrina with the the Kobe earthquake.

    • Replies: @utu
    "Kobe earthquake" - There was looting though Japanese insisted the looting was done by Koreans because Japanese do not loot.
    , @Ano
    If/When the pandemic hits, there may or may not be panic in the streets, but there sure will be black policewomen looters in the stores.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MJfB8EKWoA
    , @Ozymandias
    The clear lesson of Katrina: the "we're all in this together" sentiment depends entirely on who you're in it with.
    , @Federalist
    In the aftermath of Katrina, many people were trying to find a way out and/or trying to survive; some people were arming themselves to protect their property; and many were stealing whatever they could get their hands on. But there really wasn't much in the way of panic.
    , @utu
    “It was hard to avoid the conclusion that the looting had begun even before the first tower fell, and that while hundreds of doomed firemen had climbed through the wounded buildings, this particular crew had engaged in something else entirely, of course without the slightest suspicion that the South Tower was about to hammer down.”

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-nov-19-et-kennedy19-story.html
  8. The most convincing answer I have heard is this: those who fear panic are those with authority – cultural or political. They fear loss of that control.

    They love to demonize populism in the same way – it’s a very scary force that might get out of hand! The routine arrogance of these less than stellar people who rig the political system is pretty shocking.

  9. Is the SS Bloomberg more fortune teller/seer than he lets on? Included in his now infamous 2008 redlining diatribe is a bit concerning insurance defaults. He correctly states “that what insurance companies never assume will happen is plague”. Of course if there ever were to be one, a plague, serious financial dislocation would ensue. Comment @ ~1:40 mark (hopefully vid runs from there).

  10. It feels like Trump is heaping praise and responsibility on Pence in order to set him up for a fall and have someone to blame.

    • Replies: @nymom
    No Trump was forced to respond because the Democrats and various media were starting to over-play the impact of the Corona virus in the US to make him look bad just before the 2020 election campaign season started. Also they have been trying to crash the stock market for years now just to turn the electorate against him. They appear to have succeeded in that...

    Unfortunately he had to respond and he did...
    , @Jack D
    Trump publicly categorizes people as "good" or "bad". Good people get heaps of praise and superlatives, bad people are evil, no good, rotten, etc. Sometimes people go from good to bad when they don't perform as Trump wants or show sufficient loyalty and then he gets new "good" people to take their place. That's just how Trump operates. Like everything that Trump does, this drives liberals nuts because he seems to be lacking in nuance. Trump has plenty of nuance in his head, he just doesn't express himself in a nuanced way.
    , @Alden
    No matter what happens it’s all the fault of Trump and us White trash deplorable proles who elected him.
  11. Panic in the Streets? Nah!

    Panic at the Disco then?

    • Replies: @Tex
    We'll hang the DJ.

    Just stay out of Needle Park. They're always in a panic.
  12. “ The exceptions are long disasters that slowly wear away at civic society over time as more and more of life becomes a zero sum game.”

    Well… yes, and that’s precisely what government measures are meant to prevent and what we all fear. A month long pandemic where people isolate and food supplies are disrupted and basic services (eg. police, fire, electricity) are interrupted is what we fear. So I’m not sure how on point the article is.

    Also, the great culturally diverse United States doesn’t have the best track record. From race riots to political riots to things like Katrina, certain elements of our society tend to deteriorate rather quickly.

    • Replies: @Hail

    things like Katrina
     
    How strong is the cultural memory of "Katrina" as of 2020? Not the hurricane itself, but the chaotic aftermath, the total breakdown of civilization there for the better part of a week, the mass looting, the violence, the descent to Haiti.

    Is Katrina now a racist conspiracy theory?

    I mean, talk about off-narrative.

  13. I’d speculate that it’s residual Freudianism. In the US, Freud served as the filter through which Le Bon’s work flowed, and was ultimately amplified. Preoccupation with the unconscious (i.e. the “Id”), supposedly the principal force in mass psychology, was a major theme of 20th century psychology.

    As Greer points out, the idea that this theory resonates with those in authority makes sense because it is self-serving, and self-serving theories are the rule in politics. However, from an authority’s perspective Greer’s conclusion does not follow, because maintaining authority may be more important (to the ruler) than alleviating a disaster.

    So perhaps preserving public order first and foremost is what authorities should do, from a subjective, “I-want-to-stay-in-charge” standpoint at least, because what else matters besides wealth and power these days anyway?

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    First paragraph, very good analysis. The irrational crowd, operating on the level of their beastial subconscious needing to be directed by the rational ego, ruling intellectual and economic elite.
  14. @reiner Tor
    Which is one more reason why the Trump speech on Wednesday was so idiotic. He really had no reason to reassure the public with false promises.

    Sort of a catch-22. If he tries to ignore it, the media will just use an absence of a comment to fan the flames of hysteria. Usually addressing it head on is the best course of action.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    He should’ve said that the situation was grave, but that with his leadership we could overcome it, even if it could be difficult. Instead he downplayed the danger and promised impossible things, or at least things which are beyond his control.
  15. The book’s thesis was that humans in crowds were naturally full of “Impulsiveness, irritability, incapacity to reason, and the absence of judgement of the critical spirit…

    If this applies to any group in the current situation, at all, it arguably applies to the crowd in charge of the Chinese Communist Party… far as I can tell, they completely over-reacted to an over-estimated fatality rate, and came up with a cure that will probably turn out to have done much more damage than the disease. At this point, I’d say the threat to your investment portfolio is considerably bigger than the threat to your health.

    Then again, what do I know.

    • Agree: Kratoklastes
    • Replies: @Lugash
    If you believe the official fatality rate they over-reacted. I think the actual books show a much, much higher death toll(probably on the order of 10x) and they're reacting to that. When they official death toll was around ~1000 there were videos showing bodies being left in the hallways, waiting room and on the street, indicating the system was overwhelmed.
    , @Smithsonian_6

    far as I can tell, they completely over-reacted to an over-estimated fatality rate
     
    Watch Iran.
    , @Alden
    Husband, sons, nephews sons in law are all madly buying up stocks.
  16. @Sergeant Prepper

    A lot of these misconceptions go back to a once extremely influential book by a Gustave Le Bon, published in 1895. The book’s thesis was that humans in crowds were naturally full of “Impulsiveness, irritability, incapacity to reason, and the absence of judgement of the critical spirit… By mere fact he forms a part of the crowd a man descends several rungs of civilization. Isolated he may be a cultivated individual; in a crowd he is a barbarian.”
     
    Long time since I read Le Bon, but as far as I recall, he had nothing to say about disasters - nor, more specifically, about panicked crowds who form in response to disasters. Rather, he was concerned with the sort of angry mob that suddenly forms and, say, storms a palace and drags everyone wearing a powdered wig through the streets, or grab their pangas and start killing Tutsis. If you've ever seen a group of Inkatha-supporting Zulus who starts running through a township, killing anyone suspected of being an ANC supporter (or vice versa), you won't be in much doubt that Le Bon had a point. Pretty scary sight, a mob like that, and rather difficult to stop, once it starts rolling.

    I agree. Le Bon was correct.

    • Thanks: Sergeant Prepper
  17. @Anonymous
    It all depends on *who* is being bombed, flooded, besieged, earth-quaked etc etc.

    Compare and contrast Hurricane Katrina with the the Kobe earthquake.

    “Kobe earthquake” – There was looting though Japanese insisted the looting was done by Koreans because Japanese do not loot.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    After a disaster there are two kinds of looting. One kind is where the shops are not open and you need to obtain supplies of food, water, toilet paper and other essentials so you just take them from the rubble of nearby stores. The other kind is where you use the disaster as an opportunity to get a new flat screen TV, your neighbor's jewelry, etc. I suspect that Japanese looting was more of the former kind.
    , @anonymous
    Are you referring to this NYT article? Doesn't look like there was much looting in Kobe. One store clerk says he saw foreigners, but doesn't mention Koreans.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/world/quake-japan-scene-kobe-s-survivors-try-adjust-hand-ringing-relief-laughter.html

    There was one clear case of looting. On Thursday, several young men heaved a rock through a window of a mini-market and grabbed some food and ran. "I don't know how much was taken, because everything was still on the floor from the earthquake, and we didn't have time to count the missing merchandise," a store clerk said.

    Asked if he was surprised that Japanese should engage in such Los Angeles-style practices as post-earthquake looting, the store clerk was momentarily dumbfounded.

    "No, you misunderstood," he said firmly. "These looters weren't Japanese. They were foreigners. We saw them. Three young foreign guys."
     
    , @Trutherator
    The Japanese are like that. I've known people who lived there in Japan. They say nobody steals. Two girls I knew in college had hitchhiked all over Japan without trouble. I'm sure it has changed some with Western influence, but they are very proud about their culture.
  18. @Polynikes
    “ The exceptions are long disasters that slowly wear away at civic society over time as more and more of life becomes a zero sum game.”

    Well... yes, and that’s precisely what government measures are meant to prevent and what we all fear. A month long pandemic where people isolate and food supplies are disrupted and basic services (eg. police, fire, electricity) are interrupted is what we fear. So I’m not sure how on point the article is.

    Also, the great culturally diverse United States doesn’t have the best track record. From race riots to political riots to things like Katrina, certain elements of our society tend to deteriorate rather quickly.

    things like Katrina

    How strong is the cultural memory of “Katrina” as of 2020? Not the hurricane itself, but the chaotic aftermath, the total breakdown of civilization there for the better part of a week, the mass looting, the violence, the descent to Haiti.

    Is Katrina now a racist conspiracy theory?

    I mean, talk about off-narrative.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    Well, the reports of cannibalism turned out to be false, but otherwise, yes, Katrina was a racist conspiracy theory.
    Especially for the areas improved by the folks from New Orleans.
    , @Paco Wové
    "the chaotic aftermath, the total breakdown of civilization there for the better part of a week, the mass looting, the violence, the descent to Haiti."

    George Bush made them do it.
    , @Ragno
    Amazing how unvetted footage of civilizational collapse during Katrina - broadcast live as it became available, and seen by everyone with working eyeballs and a television set - magically became so many racist/rightist conspiracy theories (all thoroughly and authoritatively "debunked", of course) a few years later. Who are you going to believe? - government apparatchiks with the power to punish skeptics, or your own eyes?

    Never mind that those of us living in the area, or with family there, saw or experienced things we'd once believed impossible in first-world nations. How'd you like to have been an Australian tourist trapped in the Superdome that week? The ones who did had some pretty heavy-duty first-person witness accounts to relate, but never mind. Any reality that might reflect less than luminously on our African-American underclass became a debunked "urban legend" soon enough, and by media fiat.

    Rest assured: should the Left prevail in their wishful thinking - for plague and panic - the very last place you're going to want to be is near any concentrations of POC. Compare, please, the immediate fallout from Katrina - "debunked" or not - with the peaceful and cooperative spirit among the mostly-palefaces during the Iowa flood of 2008.
    , @Ragno
    Amazing how unvetted footage of civilizational collapse during Katrina – broadcast live as it became available, and seen by everyone with working eyeballs and a television set – magically became so many racist/rightist conspiracy theories (all thoroughly and authoritatively “debunked”, of course) a few years later. Who are you going to believe? – government apparatchiks with the power to punish skeptics, or your own eyes?

    Never mind that those of us living in the area, or with family there, saw or experienced things we’d once believed impossible in first-world nations. How’d you like to have been an Australian tourist trapped in the Superdome that week? The ones who did had some pretty heavy-duty first-person witness accounts to relate, but never mind. Any reality that might reflect less than luminously on our African-American underclass became a debunked “urban legend” soon enough, and by media fiat.

    Rest assured: should the Left prevail in their wishful thinking – for plague and panic – the very last place you’re going to want to be is near any concentrations of POC. Compare, please, the immediate fallout from Katrina – “debunked” or not – with the peaceful and cooperative spirit among the mostly-palefaces during the Iowa flood of 2008.
    , @Obamahotep
    The Times Picayune won a Nobel Prize with their reporting showing much of that was rumor and panic. There was looting, but I'm not sure if I was in some flooded out rat hole and I saw an unattended store I wouldn't help myself to necessaries. It's called "an emergency."
  19. Let’s hope THIS panic never happens.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    Che Guevara is already dead.
  20. @Hail

    things like Katrina
     
    How strong is the cultural memory of "Katrina" as of 2020? Not the hurricane itself, but the chaotic aftermath, the total breakdown of civilization there for the better part of a week, the mass looting, the violence, the descent to Haiti.

    Is Katrina now a racist conspiracy theory?

    I mean, talk about off-narrative.

    Well, the reports of cannibalism turned out to be false, but otherwise, yes, Katrina was a racist conspiracy theory.
    Especially for the areas improved by the folks from New Orleans.

  21. “Cities under siege have this problem; so do societies suffering under inflation.”

    So do societies suffering under diversity, immigration, and invasion by another name — and being constantly, relentlessly told that they are NOT being invaded, and besides, invasion is a good thing, and besides, they deserve it.

    • Agree: Mr McKenna
  22. @Anonymous
    It all depends on *who* is being bombed, flooded, besieged, earth-quaked etc etc.

    Compare and contrast Hurricane Katrina with the the Kobe earthquake.

    If/When the pandemic hits, there may or may not be panic in the streets, but there sure will be black policewomen looters in the stores.

  23. @BB753
    Let's hope THIS panic never happens.
    https://youtu.be/SKoIPk5Za0A

    Che Guevara is already dead.

    • LOL: BB753
  24. Anon[218] • Disclaimer says:

    The Talk, Non-Black Version:

    (10c) If planning a trip to a beach or amusement park at some date, find out whether it is likely to be swamped with blacks on that date (neglect of that one got me the closest I have ever gotten to death by gunshot).

    (10d) Do not attend events likely to draw a lot of blacks.

    (10e) If you are at some public event at which the number of blacks suddenly swells, leave as quickly as possible.

    https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-talk-nonblack-version/

  25. Mort Drucker, the MAD magazine artist, was unusually good at drawing panicked American crowds. Or, for that matter, any American crowd.

    • Replies: @the one they call Desanex
    Not sure who drew that, but it wasn’t Mort Drucker. Looks like a bad imitation of Basil Wolverton.
    , @MEH 0910
    That crude dreck is by Tom Bunk, not the great Mort Drucker.
  26. This is a very interesting topic.

    Here in HK, we’ve just had a half-year of vicious street protests. And now the coronavirus has done what the HK government and police force failed to do, i.e. slow the protests down almost to a halt.

    So is this because HK people are now pulling together to face a new outside threat, like the nations of Earth putting aside their squabbles to blast the invading aliens in unison?

    I’d say not so much. Mrs C and I were discussing this the other night, and it’s come up with other people as well: we all have the impression that when HK faced SARS 17 years ago, people really did have more of a ‘we’re all in this together’ mindset, whereas this time around we’re seeing less altruistic behavior.

    A little example: yesterday Mrs C was leaving our building, taking the elevator down. A woman got in after her on a lower floor. When they reached the ground floor, elevator woman walked out first, ahead of Mrs C — but then stopped dead right at the glass door opening out to our building’s lobby. Elevator lady looked expectantly at Mrs C, assuming that Mrs C would open the door, thereby relieving elevator lady of the need to touch a filthy public surface. Mrs C was not best pleased.

    There has also been a lot of hoarding of face masks (obviously), and also items such as toilet paper and bleach. This seems to have started earlier, and spread to a much wider extent, than during SARS, although I admit it’s hard to remember exactly how much of this occurred back then.

    Now, none of this constitutes a Simpsons-style mob meltdown, but it is perhaps indicative of an aquifer of social patience and generosity having already been seriously depleted, and not yet fully recharged.

    In other words, when a social stressor strikes, there may be an initial ‘Hey, gang, let’s all team up and beat this thing!’ surge of positive emotion, but in many situations it’s not going to last.

  27. @PiltdownMan
    Mort Drucker, the MAD magazine artist, was unusually good at drawing panicked American crowds. Or, for that matter, any American crowd.

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Sy1XuzwUgJ8/XSjb0sw7P9I/AAAAAAAADIo/0kxZPzsQlIUg9B_cV407FYHxqKCMgQhzwCK4BGAYYCw/s640/Bunk%2Bbig.jpg

    Not sure who drew that, but it wasn’t Mort Drucker. Looks like a bad imitation of Basil Wolverton.

  28. @Anonymous
    The 1939 Japanese bombing of Chungking (as it was then romanized) did seem to provoke some panic among Chinese residents:

    https://i.imgur.com/2RLNZiD.png

    While white residents seem to have held more to the "Keep calm and carry on" ethos:

    https://i.imgur.com/5EwfBJm.png

    Stephen Hosmer's RAND study, Psychological Effects of U.S. Air Operations in Four Wars, notes, "Air attacks on strategic targets in World War II generally fell short of producing the psychological results their planners hoped for. This was particularly true of Germany, where the Allied bombing of cities failed to deny labor to German industry. However, the psychological effects of the Allied bombing did speed Japan's decision to surrender and helped shape Italy's decision to seek a peace accord."

    I can’t count how many times I’ve seen high, middle and lowbrow people argue that bombing civilians in WW2 was righteous and efficacious. They ask: “if the Greatest Generation™ firebombed civilians in the Good War™, then who are we to fret and quibble over the bombing of Vietnamese, Iraqis, Serbs, Syrians, etc, etc”?

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    The bombing of civilians during the Spanish Civil War, in 1936, caused universal outrage. So did the bombing of Chunking. Then, when German bombers accidentally lost their way one night during the Blitz and bombed civilian targets in central London. Churchill retaliated the next night, and after that, in the English speaking world, the gloves came off on the bombing of civilians.

    Over here, Curtis "Bomber" LeMay helped us get over our inhibitions a long time ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay

    AFAIK.

  29. “Most sharp, sudden disasters actually have the opposite effect: they produce spontaneous bouts of charitable, brotherly behavior.”

    Not necessarily on a local and regional level. Think Rodney King verdict aftermath of rioting, looting, burning down the city. That natural disaster didn’t cause a esprit de cour, much less kumbayah or ‘we’re all in this together’. Same reaction occurred during the ’60’s with riots and burning down cities. It didn’t bring people closer together; it gave the US “white flight”.

    In other words, natural disasters that are human based that arise spontaneously the reaction isn’t togetherness behavior, it’s chaotic random flight away from the natural disaster. And everyone is for themselves to survive the natural catastrophe.

  30. Just described how the Democrats unites the republicans behind trump.

  31. @Michael S
    Ah, ye olde "people are really good deep down" canard. That's why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.

    I know if COVID-19 sweeps through the streets here, MY first priority will totally be walking straight into heavily infected areas to distribute blankets, cough drops, and my limited stock of emergency food and water. Brotherly love, folks! Count on it!

    What do Black Friday crowds have to do with this? What disaster is that phenomenon the aftermath of?

    Anyway, I lived in Greenwich Village on 9/11, and people were very charitable indeed.

  32. @Polynikes
    Sort of a catch-22. If he tries to ignore it, the media will just use an absence of a comment to fan the flames of hysteria. Usually addressing it head on is the best course of action.

    He should’ve said that the situation was grave, but that with his leadership we could overcome it, even if it could be difficult. Instead he downplayed the danger and promised impossible things, or at least things which are beyond his control.

    • Agree: Dissident
  33. Anon[296] • Disclaimer says:

    Le Bon was living in a Latin, hot-blooded society, and in true cities, where people are crowded and packed into communal living boxes. Whatever an American-tribal, essentially suburban Solnit has to say is completely irrelevant for Paris. Even if Kim Jong Un decided to bomb American civilians, I don’t expect him to give a damn about California, Texas, or other Zerg creep areas.

  34. @TelfoedJohn
    It feels like Trump is heaping praise and responsibility on Pence in order to set him up for a fall and have someone to blame.

    No Trump was forced to respond because the Democrats and various media were starting to over-play the impact of the Corona virus in the US to make him look bad just before the 2020 election campaign season started. Also they have been trying to crash the stock market for years now just to turn the electorate against him. They appear to have succeeded in that…

    Unfortunately he had to respond and he did…

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "No Trump was forced to respond because the Democrats and various media were starting to over-play the impact of the Corona virus..."

    Actually, Trump doubled down by continuing to minimize the risk, saying the outbreak “may get a little bigger; it may not get bigger at all"...despite the opinion of public health officials that it is inevitable the virus will spread within the United States. Interesting how Presidents Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama trusted Tony Fauci to be their top adviser on infectious disease, and the nation's most trusted communicator to the public, but to Trump, Fauci represents a threat because Fauci contradicted him in front of the nation. Now, the White House is requiring health officials to get approval before making public statements about the coronavirus...which is directly the opposite of what past presidential administrations have done.
  35. • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    "because the music they play, it says nothing to me about my life..." Moz
  36. Irrational fears of mob violence explain an odd media trend. Whenever a Muslim terrorist commits mass murder, you can bet that the government and the media will immediately declare that, while real dead Americans are unfortunate and regrettable, we must focus on the TRUE danger: hypothetical, imaginary mobs of white Christian males going on a spree of violence against innocent Muslims.

    Imaginary anti-Muslim backlash always frightens governments and journalists more than genuine Islamic violence.

  37. True, he could have used this as a reason to ban flights from Asia and Italy (as Israel has already done)

    He should have asked for more money from Congress and used a few billion for extra border enforcement to keep out diseased foreigners and 5 billion to expand the wall along our southern border.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  38. I’ve seen many riots. Never once was one caused by, ‘panic’. It’s always caused by anger, greed and the joy of destruction. The desire to harm is stronger than any panic in man. Yes, people do go to their base instincts in crisis. I’ve seen the same people who riot over an imagined slight pull together and help in a real crisis.

    Rioting, looting, etc is only justified by the disaster not caused by it.

    • Agree: Muggles
  39. It’s because public riots are victory riots to one extent or another, while natural disasters are not happy occasions.

  40. Stress increases the available tendencies of a given society. A cohesive, nationalistic country will grow closer together, a divided society will be driven further apart. Germany and Britain weren’t going to break down under stress, but the Italians all hate each other, so stress produced a breakdown. The question is what sort of society you have built before the stressor comes.

    • Replies: @Tex

    Germany and Britain weren’t going to break down under stress, but the Italians all hate each other, so stress produced a breakdown.
     
    Mussolini wasn't deposed because of a bombing raid, but because a massive Allied army had landed on the peninsula and was expected to inexorably advance towards Rome, the Po, and the Alps and the generals around il Duce wanted to save their butts. German generals tried something similar not too long after D-Day. They were foiled by poor explosive placement and very effective state security. No one got a second chance.

    However united the Brits were in 1940-41, they showed a very different spirit in 2011.
  41. This could be the moment when Bernie Sanders won the presidency, even before the primary. I have a feeling America’s inept, venture-capitalist society and third world healthcare system is about to get humiliated on the global stage.

  42. @Hail

    things like Katrina
     
    How strong is the cultural memory of "Katrina" as of 2020? Not the hurricane itself, but the chaotic aftermath, the total breakdown of civilization there for the better part of a week, the mass looting, the violence, the descent to Haiti.

    Is Katrina now a racist conspiracy theory?

    I mean, talk about off-narrative.

    “the chaotic aftermath, the total breakdown of civilization there for the better part of a week, the mass looting, the violence, the descent to Haiti.”

    George Bush made them do it.

    • Replies: @Hail
    "George Bush doesn't care about Black people!" -- Kanye West, Sept. 2, 2005, NBC, to a live audience of millions

    Kanye elaborated:


    I hate the way they portray us in the media. You see a black family, it says, 'They're looting.' You see a white family, it says, 'They're looking for food.' And, you know, it's been five days [waiting for federal help] because most of the people are black.
     
  43. @PiltdownMan
    Mort Drucker, the MAD magazine artist, was unusually good at drawing panicked American crowds. Or, for that matter, any American crowd.

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Sy1XuzwUgJ8/XSjb0sw7P9I/AAAAAAAADIo/0kxZPzsQlIUg9B_cV407FYHxqKCMgQhzwCK4BGAYYCw/s640/Bunk%2Bbig.jpg

    That crude dreck is by Tom Bunk, not the great Mort Drucker.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    Thank you! Well spotted.

    I did wonder about the modern coloring. I couldn't find any of the classic panels by Drucker online, and assumed that that was one, even though it looked a bit off, to my admittedly non-expert eyes.

    The Mort Drucker panel (I think) I was looking for was one I saw perhaps about 50 years ago, of a mob streaming into a movie theater lobby during an intermission for "Lawrence of Arabia."
  44. @Blubb
    I remember watching "Lost" (a series about a plane crashing on an uninhabited island, for the young ones) as a teenager, with my eyes rolling almost backwards into my head at the way they depicted people behaving. I even remember having debates with hardened leftists about the idiocy of the story. The left in my experience, really believes this because THEY would behave like that, maladjusted as they are.

    In reality, when disaster strikes, people are alert, calm and efficient, and you will rapidly have a leader emerging, who will be voted simply by people obeying his sensible suggestions of action to be taken.

    Also depends on the nature of the threat. Some days it was a polar bear, sometimes it was a doomsday bunker going critical.

    The show was intriguing to watch. Especially the early seasons.

  45. I’ve seen this trope used repeatedly in TV and movies. I think it is actually subtle propaganda from the elite: normal people cannot be trusted with the truth, or to make their own decisions. They need their lives managed by an elite class. This is not even subtext in many superhero film and series. It is the text.

    • Replies: @megabar
    > I think it is actually subtle propaganda from the elite: normal people cannot be trusted with the truth, or to make their own decisions. They need their lives managed by an elite class.

    Well, there is some truth in this. Lots of people are very bad at making decisions or understanding how policy actually plays out.

    However, I'm not aware of an elite class that directed society in a way that increased security and dignity to those folks. The reasons are greed or harmful ideology (e.g. today, believing that all people are roughly the same).

    So you either turn the reins of society over to people incapable of making good decisions, or to those who make bad decisions due to greed/ideology.

    I don't know how to fix this, beyond widespread eugenics.
  46. @Anonymous
    It all depends on *who* is being bombed, flooded, besieged, earth-quaked etc etc.

    Compare and contrast Hurricane Katrina with the the Kobe earthquake.

    The clear lesson of Katrina: the “we’re all in this together” sentiment depends entirely on who you’re in it with.

    • Agree: kikz, Hail
  47. If it comes down to quarantines and rationing, you’ll see for yourselves the community spirit and self sacrifice of the American negro.

    While you’re all cowering in your homes with your shotguns and sacks of rice, the local blacks will be out directing traffic, tending to the sick and injured, protecting property from looters and making sure that there’s enough food and medicine for everyone.

    • LOL: HammerJack
    • Replies: @fish

    If it comes down to quarantines and rationing, you’ll see for yourselves the community spirit and self sacrifice of the American negro.
     
    Smoggins......that was "duck" like in its magnificence!
  48. @MEH 0910
    That crude dreck is by Tom Bunk, not the great Mort Drucker.

    Thank you! Well spotted.

    I did wonder about the modern coloring. I couldn’t find any of the classic panels by Drucker online, and assumed that that was one, even though it looked a bit off, to my admittedly non-expert eyes.

    The Mort Drucker panel (I think) I was looking for was one I saw perhaps about 50 years ago, of a mob streaming into a movie theater lobby during an intermission for “Lawrence of Arabia.”

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    http://www.josephmartinegan.com/2018/12/14/afi-5-lawrence-of-arabia/
    http://www.josephmartinegan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Flawrence05-754x1024.jpg
    , @Cordell
    Yes, the Lawrence of Arabia parody was by Drucker. His work was so successful that MAD cultivated a number of imitators who could be said to make up “the Drucker school”, such as Angelo Torres. They were good but none really came close to Drucker,
    , @Known Fact
    Some of my saddest days as a kid were when Mad would spoof one of my favorite TV shows but assign one of their lesser artists to the job instead of Drucker
  49. For a good account of the impact on civilians of allied bombing in WWII in Italy see Beneath a Scarlet Sky: A Novel .

    There may be a dissonance of themes at work. We do see a kind of mob-mentality coming to play in the Social Media universe – it’s the subject of constant reporting, analysis and ire, right here. There’s a “race to the bottom” in terms of “comply with the logic of ‘triggering’” where a trigger is a minimum-data meme (i.e.: “that’s chauvanist”) and the public response to the meme in modern terms can be described as “Maoist”, though the phenomenon was well known for example to Hobbes who witnessed it everywhere in the English Civil War, and it’s no accident that Hobbes became and remains influential.

    But it’s nebulous in its definition and not yet subject to rigor – so it’s not surprising that it’s mis-applied. Clearly – few things help to inform you who is on the same side with you, who is “sharing a trench” with you – than the reality of being shot at, or bombed. Small differences and minor cognitive confusions dissolve – quickly.

    And that may even be the rub – much of the social media mob behavior amounts to not-so-deeply-circumlocutive people exerting a minimal cognitive effort to determine how they can crab-bucket a step above their neighbor and brother, to the point whether they don’t give a second’s thought to “who is my neighbor and brother?” … which gives us … modernity.

    But bullets flying, or bombs dropping, tends to focus the mind, even lazy minds.

  50. @Michael S
    Ah, ye olde "people are really good deep down" canard. That's why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.

    I know if COVID-19 sweeps through the streets here, MY first priority will totally be walking straight into heavily infected areas to distribute blankets, cough drops, and my limited stock of emergency food and water. Brotherly love, folks! Count on it!

    At least 2/3s of your examples are black misbehavior.

    • Replies: @anonymous

    At least 2/3s of your examples are black misbehavior.
     
    Standard Rule:

    When things are going well, white people tend to fight amongst themselves.
    When things are going badly, white people tend to pull together.

    When things are going well, black people tend to pull together.
    When things are going badly, black people tend to fight amongst themselves.

    Always have. Always will.
  51. Fat Ass Baby Boomer Asset Bubble Boy Stawk Mahket Genius Trump Loves Maria Bartiromo’s White Gloves — Or A Couple Of Other Things That Bartiromo’s Got.

    Bartiromo Would’ve Handled The Field Goal Attempt Long Snap.

    This baby boomer tart Trump wants negative interest rates, badly.

    Even the baby boomer douchebags at the New York Times had to put the still small asset bubble stock market losses in perspective to calm the panic of the greedy globalizer baby boomer vultures.

    The Pewitt Plan to pop the asset bubbles will prune 90 percent of the value of the stock market in a few days. First raise the federal funds rate to 20 percent and then stop all monetary extremism — repo madness, dollar swaps, low interest rates, asset purchases(quantitative easing), direct purchases of stocks, Fed balance sheet ballooning and all the other crud.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Where can I get some of whatever you are smoking? It sounds like fun.
  52. @Michael S
    Ah, ye olde "people are really good deep down" canard. That's why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.

    I know if COVID-19 sweeps through the streets here, MY first priority will totally be walking straight into heavily infected areas to distribute blankets, cough drops, and my limited stock of emergency food and water. Brotherly love, folks! Count on it!

    That’s why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.

    The videos of Hurricane aftermaths in this country usually show people calmly going about the business of picking up their lives. Hurricane Katrina was something different, but then the demographics of New Orleans were somewhat different. And Black Friday riots are………….usually aptly named.

    Are you sensing a pattern here yet?

    • Replies: @JMcG
    I was in Mississippi restoring power after Katrina. People couldn’t have been nicer. Folks with very little for themselves offering food to us, that sort of thing.
    , @kikz
    veteran of Camille/'69 and Frederic/'79. i've seen both, mostly the good aspects, i was lucky to live in a close knit neighborhood of long time residents, all of whom looked out for and fed ea/other, as our area did w/o power for nearly 3mos following Frederic. one example as to just how thin the veneer of civilization can actually be. traveling 20mi to another city's ice house, waiting in line for hours, and witnessing two grown White men come to near gun play over a 20lb block of ice. i don't know the particulars, but neither were happy, and quickly subdued by logic/verbal argument from w/in the crowd. civility returned.
  53. @The Alarmist
    Panic in the Streets? Nah!

    Panic at the Disco then?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVXauWq9Hwg

    We’ll hang the DJ.

    Just stay out of Needle Park. They’re always in a panic.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Wish I'd said that.
    Extra points for obscurity, Mr. Tex.
  54. N95 masks are all gone at brick and mortar stores. On eBay, it was funny – Someone was charging a not too atypical price for a pack of twenty…but they wanted $220 for shipping and handling.

  55. I was in New Orleans Katrina for more than a day and I didn’t see any misbehavior at all. My neighbor drove me to Baton Rouge and she didn’t even know I was going to give her money for it until I got out of the car and gave her money before I said thank you very much.

    I did notice on the I-10 in the other direction there was a big line of trucks filled with soldiers with machine guns but that was the single most disturbing thing I saw with my own eyes. Then when I got a hotel room I go by the lounge and there is O’Reilly on Fox yammering about chaos and mayhem in New Orleans.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    There you go. The TRUTH. Eyewitness truth. As opposed to the insane, lying, basement-dwelling blatherings of the troglodytes on here who think they have their finger on the pulse of human nature through the genius of watching TV. FACT: No panic in New Orleans; except for cops and soldiers.
    , @Federalist
    There was quite a lot of looting. But the rumors of mass violence were greatly exaggerated. Its not that the people there were apt to be well-behaved. With the flooding and loss of almost all benefits of modern society, people were mostly trying to survive and/or reach a place where they could be evacuated. It's not like people could turn up in large numbers to riot.
  56. @PiltdownMan
    Thank you! Well spotted.

    I did wonder about the modern coloring. I couldn't find any of the classic panels by Drucker online, and assumed that that was one, even though it looked a bit off, to my admittedly non-expert eyes.

    The Mort Drucker panel (I think) I was looking for was one I saw perhaps about 50 years ago, of a mob streaming into a movie theater lobby during an intermission for "Lawrence of Arabia."
    • Replies: @Jack D
    I love the last frame. In the old days, references to homosexuality it popular culture were supposed to be taboo but in fact they were there all along, just (not so deeply) buried. There have long been rumors about Lawrence's sexuality and what the Turks did to him when he was captured and whether he actually liked it (or whether it was really a just rape fantasy such as women often have and never really happened). The other possibility is that he told this tale just to stir up hatred against the Turks.
    , @PiltdownMan
    Thank you very much, indeed. That's quite a find! I'm in your debt.
  57. But how often does that really happen?

    Not that often. But Hollywood likes to stoke that meme. If you are a baby-boomer, you probably saw this.

    One could almost wonder what agenda exactly is behind it.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Steve Sailer's post also reminded me of "The Monsters are Due On Maple Street."
  58. @Hail

    things like Katrina
     
    How strong is the cultural memory of "Katrina" as of 2020? Not the hurricane itself, but the chaotic aftermath, the total breakdown of civilization there for the better part of a week, the mass looting, the violence, the descent to Haiti.

    Is Katrina now a racist conspiracy theory?

    I mean, talk about off-narrative.

    Amazing how unvetted footage of civilizational collapse during Katrina – broadcast live as it became available, and seen by everyone with working eyeballs and a television set – magically became so many racist/rightist conspiracy theories (all thoroughly and authoritatively “debunked”, of course) a few years later. Who are you going to believe? – government apparatchiks with the power to punish skeptics, or your own eyes?

    Never mind that those of us living in the area, or with family there, saw or experienced things we’d once believed impossible in first-world nations. How’d you like to have been an Australian tourist trapped in the Superdome that week? The ones who did had some pretty heavy-duty first-person witness accounts to relate, but never mind. Any reality that might reflect less than luminously on our African-American underclass became a debunked “urban legend” soon enough, and by media fiat.

    Rest assured: should the Left prevail in their wishful thinking – for plague and panic – the very last place you’re going to want to be is near any concentrations of POC. Compare, please, the immediate fallout from Katrina – “debunked” or not – with the peaceful and cooperative spirit among the mostly-palefaces during the Iowa flood of 2008.

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @Hail
    Not one of the most dramatic Katrina scenes, but this one is worth a mention:

    Emergency food was rushed in for the assembled Blacks who had been rescued from the flooded section-8 buildings, or etc. Many of them refused the food, which was of emergency-ration type. In refusing, a group of them demanded "McDonalds" be brought in instead. This was reported by a major news agency, I think a foreign one.

    , @Polynikes
    I just went back and read some of those articles--not pretty. Katrina is easily the best and most recent example of urban societal breakdown. LA riots being another one.
  59. @Michael S
    Ah, ye olde "people are really good deep down" canard. That's why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.

    I know if COVID-19 sweeps through the streets here, MY first priority will totally be walking straight into heavily infected areas to distribute blankets, cough drops, and my limited stock of emergency food and water. Brotherly love, folks! Count on it!

    If the liberal can’t accept inborn differences in behavior between the races he just falls into juvenile “ugh, I hate this world.”

  60. anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:

    I dunno… when Trump was elected president, there was a couple of weeks where it seemed a little dicey. I was in a Facebook group consisting of my neighbors in the Hollywood Hills, and the night Trump was elected, a neighborhood restaurant owner posted that he was declaring his restaurant to be a “safe space” for the neighbors to congregate to console each other, and guards would be posted outside to keep Trump voters from physically attacking them. When I mentioned I was a Trump voter, and wondered if I would be allowed in for breakfast, I received some pretty irrational responses. They were not nice. A few days later, a few of them informed us on Facebook that they and some other idiots were out running around on the 101 freeway, stopping traffic in protest to Trump being elected. They were roundly applauded by my Facebook group.

    I think some people will be rational, and some, aided and goaded by facebook and twitter friends, are quite capable of going batshit. My section of the Hollywood Hills are chocked full of people who are quite emotional, not what I’d call stable, and certainly not very bright. All the traits required for collective, willful dumbfuckery.

  61. @PiltdownMan
    Thank you! Well spotted.

    I did wonder about the modern coloring. I couldn't find any of the classic panels by Drucker online, and assumed that that was one, even though it looked a bit off, to my admittedly non-expert eyes.

    The Mort Drucker panel (I think) I was looking for was one I saw perhaps about 50 years ago, of a mob streaming into a movie theater lobby during an intermission for "Lawrence of Arabia."

    Yes, the Lawrence of Arabia parody was by Drucker. His work was so successful that MAD cultivated a number of imitators who could be said to make up “the Drucker school”, such as Angelo Torres. They were good but none really came close to Drucker,

  62. @PiltdownMan
    Thank you! Well spotted.

    I did wonder about the modern coloring. I couldn't find any of the classic panels by Drucker online, and assumed that that was one, even though it looked a bit off, to my admittedly non-expert eyes.

    The Mort Drucker panel (I think) I was looking for was one I saw perhaps about 50 years ago, of a mob streaming into a movie theater lobby during an intermission for "Lawrence of Arabia."

    Some of my saddest days as a kid were when Mad would spoof one of my favorite TV shows but assign one of their lesser artists to the job instead of Drucker

  63. Whelp, looks like the Democrats got the recession they’ve been wishing for, and all they can be accused of is inciting panic. Fortunately, it’s still eight months until the election.

    Every year, every single year in America, forty million people get the flu, six hundred thousand are hospitalized and sixty thousand people die. Every year. Why don’t we get this hoopla every year?

    • Agree: Dtbb
  64. @Michael S
    Ah, ye olde "people are really good deep down" canard. That's why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.

    I know if COVID-19 sweeps through the streets here, MY first priority will totally be walking straight into heavily infected areas to distribute blankets, cough drops, and my limited stock of emergency food and water. Brotherly love, folks! Count on it!

    Ah, ye olde “people are really good deep down” canard. T

    No, it’s the ‘people’s shortcomings have boundaries’ non-canard. Your state in life is such that that appears to bother you.

  65. I was in Port au Prince, Haiti a few days after the devastating earthquake of 2010.

    There were no signs whatsoever of rioting, looting, or civil disorder, even though I hardly saw a single cop in the two weeks I was there, since most of them were dead. People were making orderly lines at Western Union waiting to receive money from overseas at the only place that still had a working generator and a satellite dish.

    Pop up businesses were flourishing on the sidewalk where people were camping, and entrepreneurs with small gasoline generators were recharging people’s cell phones for a small fee, and making fruit drinks with blenders.

    In spite of this the media (CNN etc.) were making a big deal about UN troops being brought in to prevent civil disorder. While I was there I hardly saw any UN troops, except around the airport, and the worst civil disorder I saw was a traffic jam caused by a UN armored troop carrier driving the wrong way on a divided highway causing a massive traffic jam. Of course the fact that the traffic lights were all out did not help.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    Proving once again that American blacks are the worst behaving people in the world.

    Remember, these are the descendants of people who were so incorrigible that the ruling Kings of Africa didn't even want to keep them around as slaves. They were so bad that they unloaded them upon the naive, unsuspecting honkies lying offshore in their ships.

    Kinda like Carter's Cuban boat people, the dregs of society but emboldened even more by the likes of communist Obama and that mayor of Baltimore who cheer them on.

    , @Cloudbuster
    By that time in Haiti, there was nothing left to loot or destroy. It's hard to riot when there's nothing and nobody left to attack.
    , @The Alarmist
    The UN troops were busy setting up perimiters around at the properties for which the Clinton Foundation had designs.
  66. Classic early-60s TV sci-fi gives us two contrasting templates:

    In a well known Twilight Zone, Rod Serling smugly presents shallow suburban neighbors turning on each other as a nuclear war appears imminent. But in an excellent Outer Limits the same typical suburbanites literally join hands, deliberately spreading a plague among themselves to foil an alien invasion and save humankind

  67. The great economist Jack Hirshleifer said the same thing in his 1987 collection Economic Behavior in Adversity, which includes his classic 1963 RAND study “Disaster and Recovery: An Historical Survey”. So the idea has been around for a while. But like so many true ideas, it just doesn’t feel right to lots of people.

  68. @Blubb
    I remember watching "Lost" (a series about a plane crashing on an uninhabited island, for the young ones) as a teenager, with my eyes rolling almost backwards into my head at the way they depicted people behaving. I even remember having debates with hardened leftists about the idiocy of the story. The left in my experience, really believes this because THEY would behave like that, maladjusted as they are.

    In reality, when disaster strikes, people are alert, calm and efficient, and you will rapidly have a leader emerging, who will be voted simply by people obeying his sensible suggestions of action to be taken.

    Um you do know dont you that whites are notorious for rioting and mayhem at the slightest provocation.

    See the Tulsa massacre

    • Replies: @Michael Tomac
    Oh, Tiny duck! We've missed you!
    , @duncsbaby
    Might want to come up w/a more recent white on black atrocity:

    A 2001 state commission examination of events was able to confirm 39 dead, 26 black and 13 white, based on contemporary autopsy reports, death certificates and other records

    Date May 31 – June 1, 1921

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

  69. @Redneck farmer
    Hmmmmmm, also explains the whole, "The populists are coming, the populists are coming!" panic we've been hearing out of certain quarters also.

    Steverino will lead this crusade from a desk in a windiowless closet draped in a filthy terrycloth dressing gown shaking off last nights merlot.

    * godfather of the alt rite* damn I should of used that in high school he thought.

  70. Anonymous[369] • Disclaimer says:

    OT:

    https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/02/dear-prudence-dna-genetic-tests-pride-about-race-advice.html

    DEAR PRUDENCE

    Help! My Husband Is Proud His DNA Test Doesn’t Show “Any Black” in Him.

    Q. Is bragging about DNA results racist? My husband and his friend were recently bragging about their 23andMe results. They are both Caucasian. They mentioned several times, and were pretty smug about, the fact that they don’t have “any black in them.” I was speechless. I felt like my husband was a stranger after 22 years (17 married). I am Puerto Rican. Our son and half of my family are obviously of African descent. I may be overreacting, but it felt like a betrayal. I mentioned it to him later and he said I was overreacting. But I can’t forget about this conversation. This was six months ago and every time I think about the comment, it makes me upset. I have not mentioned it again, but I feel like I must. Am I crazy to be so worried about this?

    A: Yes, it’s incredibly racist. Your husband and his friend were being incredibly racist. He said you were overreacting when you brought it up because he was defensive about his racism and wanted to make you feel bad for noticing it. Your husband, after nearly two decades of marriage, suddenly spent an entire conversation crowing about not being black, rejoicing in his shared whiteness with another man in front of you, then insisted you were the problem for noticing his racism. Of course you can’t stop thinking about it; of course it makes you upset. I encourage you to mention this again not only to him but to your friends and family so they can better support you as you figure out what you want to do next. Stay worried! This is worth being worried about.

    • Replies: @Person with Interest
    This is really funny stuff. Say what you want about the wokerati, but they are easy to troll and react pretty amusingly most of the time. At least we will have on-board entertainment as the ship goes down.

    I'd say 50/50 the person who wrote in is trolling but 100 percent chance 'Prudence' was being serious.

    I especially love the attempts to apply SJW standards to personal relationships. There's something very desperate about that.
  71. @Sergeant Prepper

    The book’s thesis was that humans in crowds were naturally full of “Impulsiveness, irritability, incapacity to reason, and the absence of judgement of the critical spirit…
     
    If this applies to any group in the current situation, at all, it arguably applies to the crowd in charge of the Chinese Communist Party... far as I can tell, they completely over-reacted to an over-estimated fatality rate, and came up with a cure that will probably turn out to have done much more damage than the disease. At this point, I'd say the threat to your investment portfolio is considerably bigger than the threat to your health.

    Then again, what do I know.

    If you believe the official fatality rate they over-reacted. I think the actual books show a much, much higher death toll(probably on the order of 10x) and they’re reacting to that. When they official death toll was around ~1000 there were videos showing bodies being left in the hallways, waiting room and on the street, indicating the system was overwhelmed.

    • Replies: @Sergeant Prepper
    I'm just about the only person on the internets who is not an expert of pandemics, so take everything I say with a few bags of salt. Now that that's out of the way:

    Yes, I saw some of those videos, and initially came to the same conclusion as you did. Since then, I've had second thoughts. Firstly, far as I can tell, claims that the fatality rate is upwards of 2% is basically calculated by dividing known deaths by confirmed cases. Yet confirmed cases excludes all the people who only have mild symptoms and never contact a doctor (or who are told they do not fit the criteria) ... i.e. there's probably a pretty large "dark number", and since it is a novel virus, it is more difficult to guess how big the dark number is. Secondly, I can't get the doomsday scenarios to fit with e.g. the figures we have from the Diamond Princess cruise ship: more than 3700 people are stuck on a ship for 39 days. Only around 700 of them are infected, and only 4 die. That gives you an infection rate of roughly 19% of the total population, and the mortality rate among the infected is about 0.5% (0.1% of the total population on the ship). Moreover, while I'm not a regular on the cruise ship circuit, my impression is that it is not exactly the young and the fit who go on those cruises: it is the old and the obese. So you'd think an epidemic would hit them harder than a normal population.

    Maybe there are some obvious mistakes in my reasoning, but as it stands, none of this seems to me to fit with the more dramatic stories. So, until new information becomes available that gives me reason to revise my revisions, I think I won't bother to go into panic mode just yet. But just to be on the safe side, I have enough food, water, and so forth to survive comfortably for quite a few months... I call myself Sergeant Prepper for a reason;-)
  72. It’s a myth that British civilians didn’t panic during WW2. The Bethnal Green tube station has its own story to tell, although the Brits tried to cover it up at the time. Then they heroically re-created the scene 46 years later at Hillsborough.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Not so much a panic, but a chain reaction mass falling event down a long, narrow and steep stairway, with a crush of many hundreds.
  73. @Michael S
    Ah, ye olde "people are really good deep down" canard. That's why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.

    I know if COVID-19 sweeps through the streets here, MY first priority will totally be walking straight into heavily infected areas to distribute blankets, cough drops, and my limited stock of emergency food and water. Brotherly love, folks! Count on it!

    “I know if COVID-19 sweeps through the streets here, MY first priority will totally be walking straight into heavily infected areas to distribute blankets, cough drops, and my limited stock of emergency food and water. Brotherly love, folks! Count on it!”

    Of course. The first thing Whitey thinks of is to help a Black Man in need.

  74. @reiner Tor
    Which is one more reason why the Trump speech on Wednesday was so idiotic. He really had no reason to reassure the public with false promises.

    As it has been pointed out by several other folks, this press conference was a perfect opportunity for him to bring in all the favorite topics in a single theme – trade, border controls, immigration. But he is fixated on the stock market as the singular metric for his perceived success, this very well may be something that takes him down finally.

    In a hypothetical scenario where the stock market goes to zero, the deplorable’s on our side still have their land, all the minerals on those lands, trucks, guns, and gold. Their people’s net worth goes down to zero except some fine wine in their wine caves.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    As it has been pointed out by several other folks, this press conference was a perfect opportunity for him to bring in all the favorite topics in a single theme – trade, border controls, immigration. But he is fixated on the stock market as the singular metric for his perceived success, this very well may be something that takes him down finally.

    In a hypothetical scenario where the stock market goes to zero, the deplorable’s on our side still have their land, all the minerals on those lands, trucks, guns, and gold. Their people’s net worth goes down to zero except some fine wine in their wine caves.
     
    It's depressing--the incoherence, all the missed opportunities--but he's the closest thing to a nationalist on offer.

    He has pushed the Overton window a bit and has definitely pissed off all the right people--sending good-thinkers into apoplectic lunacy. That's been fun to watch.
  75. @Anonymous
    It all depends on *who* is being bombed, flooded, besieged, earth-quaked etc etc.

    Compare and contrast Hurricane Katrina with the the Kobe earthquake.

    In the aftermath of Katrina, many people were trying to find a way out and/or trying to survive; some people were arming themselves to protect their property; and many were stealing whatever they could get their hands on. But there really wasn’t much in the way of panic.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    Exactly. All those (mostly black) people utterly passively waiting it out in the Superdome and the Convention Center were not panicking. The police, of course, were panicking. Big time. That's what to worry about. Police panic.
  76. @Hail

    things like Katrina
     
    How strong is the cultural memory of "Katrina" as of 2020? Not the hurricane itself, but the chaotic aftermath, the total breakdown of civilization there for the better part of a week, the mass looting, the violence, the descent to Haiti.

    Is Katrina now a racist conspiracy theory?

    I mean, talk about off-narrative.

    Amazing how unvetted footage of civilizational collapse during Katrina – broadcast live as it became available, and seen by everyone with working eyeballs and a television set – magically became so many racist/rightist conspiracy theories (all thoroughly and authoritatively “debunked”, of course) a few years later. Who are you going to believe? – government apparatchiks with the power to punish skeptics, or your own eyes?

    Never mind that those of us living in the area, or with family there, saw or experienced things we’d once believed impossible in first-world nations. How’d you like to have been an Australian tourist trapped in the Superdome that week? The ones who did had some pretty heavy-duty first-person witness accounts to relate, but never mind. Any reality that might reflect less than luminously on our African-American underclass became a debunked “urban legend” soon enough, and by media fiat.

    Rest assured: should the Left prevail in their wishful thinking – for plague and panic – the very last place you’re going to want to be is near any concentrations of POC. Compare, please, the immediate fallout from Katrina – “debunked” or not – with the peaceful and cooperative spirit among the mostly-palefaces during the Iowa flood of 2008.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    One sight that particular stuck in my memory is of *police officers* of the affirmative action, grossly obese, female and black variety, busily looting a flooded out supermarket - fully on camera - by nonchalantly wheeling shopping carts around the aisles and literally just stealing whatever they wanted.

    Incredible.

    Even more Incredible was the way the usual peanut gallery tried to defend their oath breaking by (falsely) claiming that they 'had no alternative'.

    Bollocks. If they were truly desperate but honest, they could have itemized a bill, and sent out a cheque to the supermarket owners - or even, symbolically, pushed some cash and an explanatory note under the managers' door.

  77. “Cahn’t (sic) this town go one day with without a riot?!”
    – Mayor Quimby

  78. Crowds are panicking today in one street in New York City.

  79. Countries reporting first cases the past day: Nigeria, Estonia, Denmark, Netherlands, Mexico, and Lithuania.

    Dog in Hong Kong tests positive but does not show symptoms. More research required.

  80. Again: how long must my comments lie doggo in quarantine when seemingly all others, most of whom are saying very similar things, get approved? If I’ve transgressed some community rule, no one is bothering to inform me of what it might be.

    Indeed, it’s usually only after I complain about this that my comments are given the belated all-clear, including the complaint (I suspect to paint me as a crank, or delusional, or more bother than I’m worth).

    As I’ve been informed that the individual authors are in charge of yea’ing or nay’ing the comments – Steve Sailer, what have I done to you to warrant this permanent stinkeye you are fixing upon me? For Chrissakes, you’ve given “Tiny Duck” carte blanche to assassinate the English language on a regular basis, and – unless he’s a planted troll – clearly he’s someone who breathes exclusively through his mouth.

    C’mon ….this is getting old. If we weren’t living in a New Age of Internet Crackdowns on unapproved opinions, I’d head elsewhere. But there are damn few “elsewheres” left. Maybe if I simply changed my username altogether?

  81. @Bill P
    I'd speculate that it's residual Freudianism. In the US, Freud served as the filter through which Le Bon's work flowed, and was ultimately amplified. Preoccupation with the unconscious (i.e. the "Id"), supposedly the principal force in mass psychology, was a major theme of 20th century psychology.

    As Greer points out, the idea that this theory resonates with those in authority makes sense because it is self-serving, and self-serving theories are the rule in politics. However, from an authority's perspective Greer's conclusion does not follow, because maintaining authority may be more important (to the ruler) than alleviating a disaster.

    So perhaps preserving public order first and foremost is what authorities should do, from a subjective, "I-want-to-stay-in-charge" standpoint at least, because what else matters besides wealth and power these days anyway?

    First paragraph, very good analysis. The irrational crowd, operating on the level of their beastial subconscious needing to be directed by the rational ego, ruling intellectual and economic elite.

  82. @Jonathan Mason
    I was in Port au Prince, Haiti a few days after the devastating earthquake of 2010.

    There were no signs whatsoever of rioting, looting, or civil disorder, even though I hardly saw a single cop in the two weeks I was there, since most of them were dead. People were making orderly lines at Western Union waiting to receive money from overseas at the only place that still had a working generator and a satellite dish.

    Pop up businesses were flourishing on the sidewalk where people were camping, and entrepreneurs with small gasoline generators were recharging people's cell phones for a small fee, and making fruit drinks with blenders.

    In spite of this the media (CNN etc.) were making a big deal about UN troops being brought in to prevent civil disorder. While I was there I hardly saw any UN troops, except around the airport, and the worst civil disorder I saw was a traffic jam caused by a UN armored troop carrier driving the wrong way on a divided highway causing a massive traffic jam. Of course the fact that the traffic lights were all out did not help.

    Proving once again that American blacks are the worst behaving people in the world.

    Remember, these are the descendants of people who were so incorrigible that the ruling Kings of Africa didn’t even want to keep them around as slaves. They were so bad that they unloaded them upon the naive, unsuspecting honkies lying offshore in their ships.

    Kinda like Carter’s Cuban boat people, the dregs of society but emboldened even more by the likes of communist Obama and that mayor of Baltimore who cheer them on.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    Haitians are American blacks in the relevant sense.
    , @danand

    “Proving once again that American blacks are the worst behaving people in the world.”
     
    Three Cranes, likely not the worst, but as a “group”, certainly not the best. Following Coronavirus & Equities, the next most import TV news story here in the SF Bay Area is the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) tickicting crisis. African’t American’ts are being ticketed disproportionally for infractions.

    While black BART riders make up 12% of the system’s ridership, in the last two years they were issued approximately half of the quality of life citations for offenses such as fare evasion, loud music, panhandling, smoking and other minor offenses, according to the data released Friday.

    The vast majority of the quality of life citations involve fare evasion, and black passengers received 52 and 50 percent of the approximately 28,000 fare evasion tickets issued in 2018 and 2019, respectively. By contrast, white people make up 44 percent of BART riders and received 14 percent of the fare evasion citations in both 2018 and 2019.

    https://youtu.be/F6f2vPzTn_s
    , @fish
    Proving once again that American Imported French blacks are the worst behaving people in the world.

    Update : Reports suggest firefighters are being prevented by the demonstrators from extinguishing the fires near the Gare de Lyon in #Paris
     
    https://twitter.com/SharkNewsWires/status/1233443124984328193?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1233443124984328193&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fmarkets%2Fmajor-fire-erupts-near-central-paris-train-station
  83. @TelfoedJohn
    It feels like Trump is heaping praise and responsibility on Pence in order to set him up for a fall and have someone to blame.

    Trump publicly categorizes people as “good” or “bad”. Good people get heaps of praise and superlatives, bad people are evil, no good, rotten, etc. Sometimes people go from good to bad when they don’t perform as Trump wants or show sufficient loyalty and then he gets new “good” people to take their place. That’s just how Trump operates. Like everything that Trump does, this drives liberals nuts because he seems to be lacking in nuance. Trump has plenty of nuance in his head, he just doesn’t express himself in a nuanced way.

  84. @utu
    "Kobe earthquake" - There was looting though Japanese insisted the looting was done by Koreans because Japanese do not loot.

    After a disaster there are two kinds of looting. One kind is where the shops are not open and you need to obtain supplies of food, water, toilet paper and other essentials so you just take them from the rubble of nearby stores. The other kind is where you use the disaster as an opportunity to get a new flat screen TV, your neighbor’s jewelry, etc. I suspect that Japanese looting was more of the former kind.

  85. @MEH 0910
    http://www.josephmartinegan.com/2018/12/14/afi-5-lawrence-of-arabia/
    http://www.josephmartinegan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Flawrence05-754x1024.jpg

    I love the last frame. In the old days, references to homosexuality it popular culture were supposed to be taboo but in fact they were there all along, just (not so deeply) buried. There have long been rumors about Lawrence’s sexuality and what the Turks did to him when he was captured and whether he actually liked it (or whether it was really a just rape fantasy such as women often have and never really happened). The other possibility is that he told this tale just to stir up hatred against the Turks.

    • Replies: @Lot
    I don’t think jokes from the early to mid 2oth c. about men being effeminate were taboo at all or implied homosexuality.

    Rather they were usually just what they appeared to be: funny jokes about men being unmanly, funny in silly Mrs. Doubtfire and Uncle Arthur way.

    The audience was correctly assumed to mostly have no “gaydar” and didn’t have a strong association between certain traits and homosexuality that we now broadly have.
    , @MEH 0910
    http://www.josephmartinegan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Flawrence04-759x1024.jpg
  86. A lot of these misconceptions go back to a once extremely influential book by a Gustave Le Bon, published in 1895.

    It’s been less than 19 years since it helped inspire PNAC to bring down the Twin Towers, so I don’t think “once extremely influential” gives the book its due.

  87. @Jack D
    I love the last frame. In the old days, references to homosexuality it popular culture were supposed to be taboo but in fact they were there all along, just (not so deeply) buried. There have long been rumors about Lawrence's sexuality and what the Turks did to him when he was captured and whether he actually liked it (or whether it was really a just rape fantasy such as women often have and never really happened). The other possibility is that he told this tale just to stir up hatred against the Turks.

    I don’t think jokes from the early to mid 2oth c. about men being effeminate were taboo at all or implied homosexuality.

    Rather they were usually just what they appeared to be: funny jokes about men being unmanly, funny in silly Mrs. Doubtfire and Uncle Arthur way.

    The audience was correctly assumed to mostly have no “gaydar” and didn’t have a strong association between certain traits and homosexuality that we now broadly have.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    I believe this is an error misinterpreting the (wise but now abandoned) segregation of adult subjects. It's as Jack said, things were buried, but people understood them -- transmuting an unfilmable rape to a filmable flogging isn't so different from the camera panning from James Bond's bed up to a ceiling fan -- and there are passages in some books which are almost modern. The difference is people really were not surrounded by porn.
    , @MEH 0910
    https://ukjarry.blogspot.com/2007/12/32-gay-lib-mad-magazine.html

    from “Greeting Cards for the Sexual Revolution” in “Mad”, September 1971
     
    https://brucegarrett.com/images/mad-145_to_a_gay_lib.jpg
  88. Rebecca Solnit has an interesting book on this called “A Paradise Built in Hell,” for those interested.

    Her book is pretty good; I read it a while back. There are a few awkward moments when she’s wishing a little too hard for the people to rise against their corrupt rulers in the aftermath of a disaster, but in general the cases she studies (off-the-top-of-my head, the SF 1906 earthquake, the Halifax Explosion, the Mexico City 1985 earthquake, NYC after 9/11, and New Orleans after Katrina) are analyzed well.

    Related to that, and based a bit on my own experience as a Marine and a volunteer firefighter, I think it’s helpful to analyze disaster into 3 stages:

    1. Reaction. This occurs when the threat is newly apparent. If there’s any panic, it will likely occur here (for the understandable reason that the danger is frequently still imminent and fight-or-flight responses don’t turn off instantly).

    2. Recovery. Once the initial acute danger’s passed, it’s obvious to just about everyone that there’s a lot of work to be done. Fires need to be put out; people need to be retrieved from flood areas or from the rubble of collapsed buildings; injuries need to be treated; blood needs to be donated. The tasks involved are simple enough that almost anyone can do them – which leads to the sense of camaraderie – and take up enough of most people’s time and energy that they couldn’t find something to be anxious about in the long run even if they wanted to.

    3. Post-recovery. Once most of the work in stage 2 is done, people try to get back to whatever they did pre-disaster, but this transition is probably the toughest. Peacetime work isn’t as inherently satisfying, the adrenaline and camaraderie have faded, and anyone who’s inclined toward dark thoughts generally is going to have to work to fight them off.

  89. I would mention the infamous New York City blackout of 1977 that triggered much looting and arson. (Repeated in 2003 with the 24hr news chomping at the bit for some sweet sweet riots but none materialised. People without cars just calmly walked home with many offering a place for the night for those too far from their homes to make it.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_blackout_of_1977

    Though despite all the rioting and looting, it was more of the communal protest kind with only one confirmed murder all night that could be attributed to the blackout.

  90. @Redneck farmer
    Hmmmmmm, also explains the whole, "The populists are coming, the populists are coming!" panic we've been hearing out of certain quarters also.

    Which raises the question: if so few disasters cause panics, and if so few panics cause disorder, then why is this idea so prevalent? Why does the brain worm stick?

    The most convincing answer I have heard is this: those who fear panic are those with authority – cultural or political. They fear loss of that control.

    That’s not bad. A better answer: Those who fear panic are those who have caused (negligently or intentionally) the thing that might create panic, and they don’t want to be called to account.

    • Agree: Kratoklastes
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Very true.
    , @J.Ross
    Better: if the average shmo can generally be trusted to manage his own affairs, even through dire surprises, why exactly do we need a law-ignoring asset-stealing street gang who regularly misplace trillions of dollars and start unwinnable wars?
  91. Anonymous[157] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ragno
    Amazing how unvetted footage of civilizational collapse during Katrina – broadcast live as it became available, and seen by everyone with working eyeballs and a television set – magically became so many racist/rightist conspiracy theories (all thoroughly and authoritatively “debunked”, of course) a few years later. Who are you going to believe? – government apparatchiks with the power to punish skeptics, or your own eyes?

    Never mind that those of us living in the area, or with family there, saw or experienced things we’d once believed impossible in first-world nations. How’d you like to have been an Australian tourist trapped in the Superdome that week? The ones who did had some pretty heavy-duty first-person witness accounts to relate, but never mind. Any reality that might reflect less than luminously on our African-American underclass became a debunked “urban legend” soon enough, and by media fiat.

    Rest assured: should the Left prevail in their wishful thinking – for plague and panic – the very last place you’re going to want to be is near any concentrations of POC. Compare, please, the immediate fallout from Katrina – “debunked” or not – with the peaceful and cooperative spirit among the mostly-palefaces during the Iowa flood of 2008.

    One sight that particular stuck in my memory is of *police officers* of the affirmative action, grossly obese, female and black variety, busily looting a flooded out supermarket – fully on camera – by nonchalantly wheeling shopping carts around the aisles and literally just stealing whatever they wanted.

    Incredible.

    Even more Incredible was the way the usual peanut gallery tried to defend their oath breaking by (falsely) claiming that they ‘had no alternative’.

    Bollocks. If they were truly desperate but honest, they could have itemized a bill, and sent out a cheque to the supermarket owners – or even, symbolically, pushed some cash and an explanatory note under the managers’ door.

  92. @Bragadocious
    It's a myth that British civilians didn't panic during WW2. The Bethnal Green tube station has its own story to tell, although the Brits tried to cover it up at the time. Then they heroically re-created the scene 46 years later at Hillsborough.

    Not so much a panic, but a chain reaction mass falling event down a long, narrow and steep stairway, with a crush of many hundreds.

    • Replies: @Bragadocious
    Yes, I'm sure they were all queuing in an orderly fashion, as Brits are known to do. Then -- whoopsy daisy -- they all fell down the stairs. Sounds logical.
  93. @ben tillman

    Which raises the question: if so few disasters cause panics, and if so few panics cause disorder, then why is this idea so prevalent? Why does the brain worm stick?

    The most convincing answer I have heard is this: those who fear panic are those with authority – cultural or political. They fear loss of that control.
     
    That's not bad. A better answer: Those who fear panic are those who have caused (negligently or intentionally) the thing that might create panic, and they don't want to be called to account.

    Very true.

  94. @ThreeCranes
    Proving once again that American blacks are the worst behaving people in the world.

    Remember, these are the descendants of people who were so incorrigible that the ruling Kings of Africa didn't even want to keep them around as slaves. They were so bad that they unloaded them upon the naive, unsuspecting honkies lying offshore in their ships.

    Kinda like Carter's Cuban boat people, the dregs of society but emboldened even more by the likes of communist Obama and that mayor of Baltimore who cheer them on.

    Haitians are American blacks in the relevant sense.

  95. anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @DoopDeep
    At least 2/3s of your examples are black misbehavior.

    At least 2/3s of your examples are black misbehavior.

    Standard Rule:

    When things are going well, white people tend to fight amongst themselves.
    When things are going badly, white people tend to pull together.

    When things are going well, black people tend to pull together.
    When things are going badly, black people tend to fight amongst themselves.

    Always have. Always will.

  96. @Mr. Anon

    That’s why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.
     
    The videos of Hurricane aftermaths in this country usually show people calmly going about the business of picking up their lives. Hurricane Katrina was something different, but then the demographics of New Orleans were somewhat different. And Black Friday riots are.............usually aptly named.

    Are you sensing a pattern here yet?

    I was in Mississippi restoring power after Katrina. People couldn’t have been nicer. Folks with very little for themselves offering food to us, that sort of thing.

  97. Depends on if the crowd is Congolese in France. Right now Gare de Lyon, a massive central rail and metro hub, is getting the Notre Dame treatment. “Refugees” are preventing firefighters from dealing with the blaze. A French anon says: “The controversial President of Congo is holding a meeting. Members of the Congolese community are fighting a subgroup of Congolese.”

    • Replies: @Jack D
    The station itself is not (yet) on fire. Apparently some of the Congolese outside decided to hold a traditional suburban (in French, "suburb" means ghetto - the French contrary to American custom reserve their downtown core for rich white people and site all the housing projects distant from the cultural attractions) carbeque next to the station. Setting cars on fire is just what disenfranchised youth like to do in France, for occasions when graffiti is just not enough. For some reason this never caught on in America, probably because if anyone in the ghetto saw his car being lit on fire he would shoot the m'fers who were doing it.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard

    Depends on if the crowd is Congolese in France. Right now Gare de Lyon, a massive central rail and metro hub, is getting the Notre Dame treatment.
     
    France is done if they can no longer control the rail hub in their capital city Paris, considered a World Alpha+ level city, that connects to their second largest city, Lyon.
  98. @ben tillman

    Which raises the question: if so few disasters cause panics, and if so few panics cause disorder, then why is this idea so prevalent? Why does the brain worm stick?

    The most convincing answer I have heard is this: those who fear panic are those with authority – cultural or political. They fear loss of that control.
     
    That's not bad. A better answer: Those who fear panic are those who have caused (negligently or intentionally) the thing that might create panic, and they don't want to be called to account.

    Better: if the average shmo can generally be trusted to manage his own affairs, even through dire surprises, why exactly do we need a law-ignoring asset-stealing street gang who regularly misplace trillions of dollars and start unwinnable wars?

  99. @ThreeCranes
    Proving once again that American blacks are the worst behaving people in the world.

    Remember, these are the descendants of people who were so incorrigible that the ruling Kings of Africa didn't even want to keep them around as slaves. They were so bad that they unloaded them upon the naive, unsuspecting honkies lying offshore in their ships.

    Kinda like Carter's Cuban boat people, the dregs of society but emboldened even more by the likes of communist Obama and that mayor of Baltimore who cheer them on.

    “Proving once again that American blacks are the worst behaving people in the world.”

    Three Cranes, likely not the worst, but as a “group”, certainly not the best. Following Coronavirus & Equities, the next most import TV news story here in the SF Bay Area is the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) tickicting crisis. African’t American’ts are being ticketed disproportionally for infractions.

    While black BART riders make up 12% of the system’s ridership, in the last two years they were issued approximately half of the quality of life citations for offenses such as fare evasion, loud music, panhandling, smoking and other minor offenses, according to the data released Friday.

    The vast majority of the quality of life citations involve fare evasion, and black passengers received 52 and 50 percent of the approximately 28,000 fare evasion tickets issued in 2018 and 2019, respectively. By contrast, white people make up 44 percent of BART riders and received 14 percent of the fare evasion citations in both 2018 and 2019.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Fare evasions can be explained rather simply by the fact that blacks often don't have any money (having spent it all) and when they do, they feel entitled to getting free stuff anyway.

    The other crimes - loud music, panhandling, smoking, etc. are partly a result of total lack of regard for others but also part of a (conscious or unconscious) desire to turn public spaces into exclusively black spaces by making them intolerable to other races. In many cities this has in fact succeeded and public transit, public schools, public pools, etc. are close to 100% black (even if the city in general is only 50% black).

    There was recently a video circulating online of some fat black girl at a college making a loud announcement that all whites should leave the new "Multicultural Center" because it was supposed to be a space for black people only. In fact there was no such policy, nor could there be because it would be illegal. You can only imagine what would have happened if a white frat boy stood up and asked all blacks to leave a public space but AFAIK this girl was not disciplined at all. She was a young person who did not understand the law but she had a pure heart and did not deserve punishment.
  100. The worst that is likely to happen is panic buying, with disputes seldom escalating beyond occasional pushing and shoving.

    Eric Berne, author of Games People Play, wrote that everyone contains a “little fascist”, who has the tendency to take over if he is “given permission” to do so. This mechanism can be observed in countries from Nazi Germany to Rwanda.

    In situations where public disorder is possible, the authorities have knowingly or unknowingly taken Berne’s message on board, and they either appeal for calm, or warn that lawlessness will not be tolerated.

    This formula for prevention appears to be sufficient, as long as people have their “bread and circuses”. However, the chattering classes remain terrified that ordinary people need only the slightest excuse to turn into a fascist mob.

  101. @Lot
    I don’t think jokes from the early to mid 2oth c. about men being effeminate were taboo at all or implied homosexuality.

    Rather they were usually just what they appeared to be: funny jokes about men being unmanly, funny in silly Mrs. Doubtfire and Uncle Arthur way.

    The audience was correctly assumed to mostly have no “gaydar” and didn’t have a strong association between certain traits and homosexuality that we now broadly have.

    I believe this is an error misinterpreting the (wise but now abandoned) segregation of adult subjects. It’s as Jack said, things were buried, but people understood them — transmuting an unfilmable rape to a filmable flogging isn’t so different from the camera panning from James Bond’s bed up to a ceiling fan — and there are passages in some books which are almost modern. The difference is people really were not surrounded by porn.

    • Replies: @Dissident

    It’s as Jack said, things were buried, but people understood them — [...]
    [...]
    The difference is people really were not surrounded by porn.
     
    There's a whole question in this vein that's been raised concerning some of Charles Dickens' most famous works. Perhaps the most salient example is the character Master Charlie Bates (often referred-to simply as Master Bates) in Oliver Twist. Was the double entendre that most likely few modern readers can't help but to notice intentional on the part of Dickens?

    And whether or not it was, how likely was the typical reader of Dickens in the Victorian England of his day to make the association with (or even be familiar with) the proper term for what they called self-abuse*?

    I've also seen it claimed that Shakespeare could actually be quite raunchy; one just has to be familiar with what were the less respectable, perhaps slang meanings for many of the words he used.

    *Incidentally, Kevin Michael Grace has suggested that "racism" in the present era has become much like "self-abuse" in Victorian England: Something that is blamed for just about every imaginable ill.

  102. @Anonymous
    Not so much a panic, but a chain reaction mass falling event down a long, narrow and steep stairway, with a crush of many hundreds.

    Yes, I’m sure they were all queuing in an orderly fashion, as Brits are known to do. Then — whoopsy daisy — they all fell down the stairs. Sounds logical.

  103. @Hail

    things like Katrina
     
    How strong is the cultural memory of "Katrina" as of 2020? Not the hurricane itself, but the chaotic aftermath, the total breakdown of civilization there for the better part of a week, the mass looting, the violence, the descent to Haiti.

    Is Katrina now a racist conspiracy theory?

    I mean, talk about off-narrative.

    The Times Picayune won a Nobel Prize with their reporting showing much of that was rumor and panic. There was looting, but I’m not sure if I was in some flooded out rat hole and I saw an unattended store I wouldn’t help myself to necessaries. It’s called “an emergency.”

  104. anonymous[453] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu
    "Kobe earthquake" - There was looting though Japanese insisted the looting was done by Koreans because Japanese do not loot.

    Are you referring to this NYT article? Doesn’t look like there was much looting in Kobe. One store clerk says he saw foreigners, but doesn’t mention Koreans.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/world/quake-japan-scene-kobe-s-survivors-try-adjust-hand-ringing-relief-laughter.html

    There was one clear case of looting. On Thursday, several young men heaved a rock through a window of a mini-market and grabbed some food and ran. “I don’t know how much was taken, because everything was still on the floor from the earthquake, and we didn’t have time to count the missing merchandise,” a store clerk said.

    Asked if he was surprised that Japanese should engage in such Los Angeles-style practices as post-earthquake looting, the store clerk was momentarily dumbfounded.

    “No, you misunderstood,” he said firmly. “These looters weren’t Japanese. They were foreigners. We saw them. Three young foreign guys.”

    • Replies: @utu
    " One store clerk says he saw foreigners, but doesn’t mention Koreans." - He meant Koreans though he did not want hurt their feelings.
  105. @Johnny Smoggins
    If it comes down to quarantines and rationing, you'll see for yourselves the community spirit and self sacrifice of the American negro.

    While you're all cowering in your homes with your shotguns and sacks of rice, the local blacks will be out directing traffic, tending to the sick and injured, protecting property from looters and making sure that there's enough food and medicine for everyone.

    If it comes down to quarantines and rationing, you’ll see for yourselves the community spirit and self sacrifice of the American negro.

    Smoggins……that was “duck” like in its magnificence!

    • Replies: @duncsbaby
    If all he said ever really happened in actual reality there would be no unz.com.
  106. @Jonathan Mason
    I was in Port au Prince, Haiti a few days after the devastating earthquake of 2010.

    There were no signs whatsoever of rioting, looting, or civil disorder, even though I hardly saw a single cop in the two weeks I was there, since most of them were dead. People were making orderly lines at Western Union waiting to receive money from overseas at the only place that still had a working generator and a satellite dish.

    Pop up businesses were flourishing on the sidewalk where people were camping, and entrepreneurs with small gasoline generators were recharging people's cell phones for a small fee, and making fruit drinks with blenders.

    In spite of this the media (CNN etc.) were making a big deal about UN troops being brought in to prevent civil disorder. While I was there I hardly saw any UN troops, except around the airport, and the worst civil disorder I saw was a traffic jam caused by a UN armored troop carrier driving the wrong way on a divided highway causing a massive traffic jam. Of course the fact that the traffic lights were all out did not help.

    By that time in Haiti, there was nothing left to loot or destroy. It’s hard to riot when there’s nothing and nobody left to attack.

  107. @ThreeCranes
    Proving once again that American blacks are the worst behaving people in the world.

    Remember, these are the descendants of people who were so incorrigible that the ruling Kings of Africa didn't even want to keep them around as slaves. They were so bad that they unloaded them upon the naive, unsuspecting honkies lying offshore in their ships.

    Kinda like Carter's Cuban boat people, the dregs of society but emboldened even more by the likes of communist Obama and that mayor of Baltimore who cheer them on.

    Proving once again that American Imported French blacks are the worst behaving people in the world.

    Update : Reports suggest firefighters are being prevented by the demonstrators from extinguishing the fires near the Gare de Lyon in #Paris

  108. Here’s the ISteviest………

    Accused serial killer healthcare worker tied to a THOUSAND unexplained deaths of elderly patients is indicted on additional murder charges

    Billy Chemirmir, 47, was indicted on Tuesday on murder charges in the deaths of Leah Corken, 83, and Juanita Prudy, 82

    He now faces 14 capital murder charges in Texas for allegedly targeting elderly women who he is accused of robbing and smothering to death

    He posed as a maintenance worker to enter assisted living facilities in North Texas and gain access to the women when they were alone, authorities say

    Capital murder charges in the state carry the death penalty or life in prison with no chance of parole
    Chemirmir is being investigated in 1,000 unexplained cases

    Originally from Nigeria, ICE have also placed a hold on his file and deportation proceedings may begin if he leaves state custody

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8047403/Serial-killer-illegal-immigrant-tied-THOUSAND-unexplained-deaths-indicted-murders.html

  109. @danand

    “Proving once again that American blacks are the worst behaving people in the world.”
     
    Three Cranes, likely not the worst, but as a “group”, certainly not the best. Following Coronavirus & Equities, the next most import TV news story here in the SF Bay Area is the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) tickicting crisis. African’t American’ts are being ticketed disproportionally for infractions.

    While black BART riders make up 12% of the system’s ridership, in the last two years they were issued approximately half of the quality of life citations for offenses such as fare evasion, loud music, panhandling, smoking and other minor offenses, according to the data released Friday.

    The vast majority of the quality of life citations involve fare evasion, and black passengers received 52 and 50 percent of the approximately 28,000 fare evasion tickets issued in 2018 and 2019, respectively. By contrast, white people make up 44 percent of BART riders and received 14 percent of the fare evasion citations in both 2018 and 2019.

    https://youtu.be/F6f2vPzTn_s

    Fare evasions can be explained rather simply by the fact that blacks often don’t have any money (having spent it all) and when they do, they feel entitled to getting free stuff anyway.

    The other crimes – loud music, panhandling, smoking, etc. are partly a result of total lack of regard for others but also part of a (conscious or unconscious) desire to turn public spaces into exclusively black spaces by making them intolerable to other races. In many cities this has in fact succeeded and public transit, public schools, public pools, etc. are close to 100% black (even if the city in general is only 50% black).

    There was recently a video circulating online of some fat black girl at a college making a loud announcement that all whites should leave the new “Multicultural Center” because it was supposed to be a space for black people only. In fact there was no such policy, nor could there be because it would be illegal. You can only imagine what would have happened if a white frat boy stood up and asked all blacks to leave a public space but AFAIK this girl was not disciplined at all. She was a young person who did not understand the law but she had a pure heart and did not deserve punishment.

  110. @Mr. Anon

    That’s why all of the videos of hurricane aftermath, Black Friday crowds, and the recent shortage in an Italian supermarket demonstrated nothing but charitable, brotherly behavior.
     
    The videos of Hurricane aftermaths in this country usually show people calmly going about the business of picking up their lives. Hurricane Katrina was something different, but then the demographics of New Orleans were somewhat different. And Black Friday riots are.............usually aptly named.

    Are you sensing a pattern here yet?

    veteran of Camille/’69 and Frederic/’79. i’ve seen both, mostly the good aspects, i was lucky to live in a close knit neighborhood of long time residents, all of whom looked out for and fed ea/other, as our area did w/o power for nearly 3mos following Frederic. one example as to just how thin the veneer of civilization can actually be. traveling 20mi to another city’s ice house, waiting in line for hours, and witnessing two grown White men come to near gun play over a 20lb block of ice. i don’t know the particulars, but neither were happy, and quickly subdued by logic/verbal argument from w/in the crowd. civility returned.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    You and my Dad may be from the same city. He also described “ice riots” after Frederic, and ice trucks getting hijacked on their way to deliver to his neighborhood!

    I went through Katrina as a teenager but was some distance from the worst of it. Minor disruptions- similar to that of other Hurricanes. I was, however, in a really bad natural disaster of a different kind and I can assure you that most people panic. I had to stop my roommate from going berserk and it was a bit of a post-apocalyptic free for all for 24 hours afterwards. I also had no food and little water (boil order) for 18 hours and that was enough to give me a killer headache.

    I don’t play around with prepping.
  111. During the FIRST World War, German night bombing of London did cause a lot of panic. The war wasn’t that popular to begin with, and the possibility of being blown up in your bed made it seem like an even worse idea. The government was forced to bring back planes and artillery badly needed in France to defend the city. It was mostly to reassure the civilians with the sound of buzzing planes and firing guns.

    After the war, German officers secretly visited London and saw how little material damage their air raids actually did. They concluded air power was best used as ground support. The British, however, who experienced the impact strategic bombing had on public morale, started building heavy bombers. And the British government also started a propaganda campaign to “keep calm and carry on.”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Apparently, the aircraft then in use were unable(!) to match in speed and altitude such a big, fat and obvious juicy target as 300ft inflated flying bag of hydrogen gas.
    In the later years, improvements gave biplanes the upper hand, and the Zeppelins tumbled like nine pins.
    At the very end of the war, the Germans resumed the bombing of London with the extraordinary heavy Gotha bomber - a real beast of an airplane.
    , @Jack D

    After the war, German officers secretly visited London and saw how little material damage their air raids actually did.
     
    That's because they didn't try hard enough. Only 667 were killed in London during the course of the entire war. Contrast Operation Gomorrah, which killed 35,000 civilians in Hamburg in one week or the firebombing of Dresden which killed 25,000 in only 3 nights (higher numbers are bandied about but they are false - either Nazi or later Soviet propaganda but 25,000 is a big number without having to exaggerate).

    It's true that these raids didn't cause "panic". It's even true that they didn't destroy war production since factories were moved underground, etc. and because "dehoused" workers often stayed at work more since they no longer had homes to go back to at night. But you have to say that they did ultimately undermine German morale and support for the war, not that the Nazis were asking for public support. In the long run, they may have finally given the Germans a permanent distaste for military adventures, which they had loved as much as they loved beer from Roman times onward.

  112. Anonymous[157] • Disclaimer says:

    I wonder how many modern populations could withstand an extreme hardship – and signally refuse to surrender – such as the Russians in the siege of Leningrad?

    Mikhail Gorbachev’s craven cowardice, vanity and duplicity in enabling ‘German Reunification’ when seen in that context absolutely disgusted me, in way that very very few things have ever done, when measured in that context.

  113. @Cloudbuster
    I've seen this trope used repeatedly in TV and movies. I think it is actually subtle propaganda from the elite: normal people cannot be trusted with the truth, or to make their own decisions. They need their lives managed by an elite class. This is not even subtext in many superhero film and series. It is the text.

    > I think it is actually subtle propaganda from the elite: normal people cannot be trusted with the truth, or to make their own decisions. They need their lives managed by an elite class.

    Well, there is some truth in this. Lots of people are very bad at making decisions or understanding how policy actually plays out.

    However, I’m not aware of an elite class that directed society in a way that increased security and dignity to those folks. The reasons are greed or harmful ideology (e.g. today, believing that all people are roughly the same).

    So you either turn the reins of society over to people incapable of making good decisions, or to those who make bad decisions due to greed/ideology.

    I don’t know how to fix this, beyond widespread eugenics.

  114. @Tiny Duck
    Um you do know dont you that whites are notorious for rioting and mayhem at the slightest provocation.

    See the Tulsa massacre

    Oh, Tiny duck! We’ve missed you!

  115. Anonymous[157] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paul Mendez
    During the FIRST World War, German night bombing of London did cause a lot of panic. The war wasn’t that popular to begin with, and the possibility of being blown up in your bed made it seem like an even worse idea. The government was forced to bring back planes and artillery badly needed in France to defend the city. It was mostly to reassure the civilians with the sound of buzzing planes and firing guns.

    After the war, German officers secretly visited London and saw how little material damage their air raids actually did. They concluded air power was best used as ground support. The British, however, who experienced the impact strategic bombing had on public morale, started building heavy bombers. And the British government also started a propaganda campaign to “keep calm and carry on.”

    Apparently, the aircraft then in use were unable(!) to match in speed and altitude such a big, fat and obvious juicy target as 300ft inflated flying bag of hydrogen gas.
    In the later years, improvements gave biplanes the upper hand, and the Zeppelins tumbled like nine pins.
    At the very end of the war, the Germans resumed the bombing of London with the extraordinary heavy Gotha bomber – a real beast of an airplane.

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez
    The Gotha bombers were indeed impressive, but you are probably thinking of the Zeppelin-Staaken R.XVI.

    I still have a hard time imagining such an aircraft could exist just 15 years after the Wright brothers’ first flight!
  116. @J.Ross
    Depends on if the crowd is Congolese in France. Right now Gare de Lyon, a massive central rail and metro hub, is getting the Notre Dame treatment. "Refugees" are preventing firefighters from dealing with the blaze. A French anon says: "The controversial President of Congo is holding a meeting. Members of the Congolese community are fighting a subgroup of Congolese."

    The station itself is not (yet) on fire. Apparently some of the Congolese outside decided to hold a traditional suburban (in French, “suburb” means ghetto – the French contrary to American custom reserve their downtown core for rich white people and site all the housing projects distant from the cultural attractions) carbeque next to the station. Setting cars on fire is just what disenfranchised youth like to do in France, for occasions when graffiti is just not enough. For some reason this never caught on in America, probably because if anyone in the ghetto saw his car being lit on fire he would shoot the m’fers who were doing it.

  117. @J.Ross
    Depends on if the crowd is Congolese in France. Right now Gare de Lyon, a massive central rail and metro hub, is getting the Notre Dame treatment. "Refugees" are preventing firefighters from dealing with the blaze. A French anon says: "The controversial President of Congo is holding a meeting. Members of the Congolese community are fighting a subgroup of Congolese."

    Depends on if the crowd is Congolese in France. Right now Gare de Lyon, a massive central rail and metro hub, is getting the Notre Dame treatment.

    France is done if they can no longer control the rail hub in their capital city Paris, considered a World Alpha+ level city, that connects to their second largest city, Lyon.

  118. The irrational and violent mob is the dream of the elite, provided they’re pointed the right way. Here, some kind of Christian proselytizer talking about abortion is physically assaulted at a college, but notice that he is specifically branded as a witch — I mean, as a racist, even though there’s really nothing racial and the logical criticism would be sexist.
    Racist/Nazi = kulak/wrecker.
    https://twitter.com/rochhhellle/status/1232761585699037187

  119. @Tarrou
    Stress increases the available tendencies of a given society. A cohesive, nationalistic country will grow closer together, a divided society will be driven further apart. Germany and Britain weren't going to break down under stress, but the Italians all hate each other, so stress produced a breakdown. The question is what sort of society you have built before the stressor comes.

    Germany and Britain weren’t going to break down under stress, but the Italians all hate each other, so stress produced a breakdown.

    Mussolini wasn’t deposed because of a bombing raid, but because a massive Allied army had landed on the peninsula and was expected to inexorably advance towards Rome, the Po, and the Alps and the generals around il Duce wanted to save their butts. German generals tried something similar not too long after D-Day. They were foiled by poor explosive placement and very effective state security. No one got a second chance.

    However united the Brits were in 1940-41, they showed a very different spirit in 2011.

  120. @Paul Mendez
    During the FIRST World War, German night bombing of London did cause a lot of panic. The war wasn’t that popular to begin with, and the possibility of being blown up in your bed made it seem like an even worse idea. The government was forced to bring back planes and artillery badly needed in France to defend the city. It was mostly to reassure the civilians with the sound of buzzing planes and firing guns.

    After the war, German officers secretly visited London and saw how little material damage their air raids actually did. They concluded air power was best used as ground support. The British, however, who experienced the impact strategic bombing had on public morale, started building heavy bombers. And the British government also started a propaganda campaign to “keep calm and carry on.”

    After the war, German officers secretly visited London and saw how little material damage their air raids actually did.

    That’s because they didn’t try hard enough. Only 667 were killed in London during the course of the entire war. Contrast Operation Gomorrah, which killed 35,000 civilians in Hamburg in one week or the firebombing of Dresden which killed 25,000 in only 3 nights (higher numbers are bandied about but they are false – either Nazi or later Soviet propaganda but 25,000 is a big number without having to exaggerate).

    It’s true that these raids didn’t cause “panic”. It’s even true that they didn’t destroy war production since factories were moved underground, etc. and because “dehoused” workers often stayed at work more since they no longer had homes to go back to at night. But you have to say that they did ultimately undermine German morale and support for the war, not that the Nazis were asking for public support. In the long run, they may have finally given the Germans a permanent distaste for military adventures, which they had loved as much as they loved beer from Roman times onward.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    >you have to say
    No.
    The conclusions of history (and the technocrats studying it at the time) is the opposite. Really odd argument to try to make considering that the Germans were defeated as harshly as any nation has ever been, by direct conquest and not an illogical surrender resulting from demonstrations of Allied mercy.
    >Germans lost their taste for war
    Are you talking about the literally militarily occupied and thoroughly brainwashed modern Germans, who nevertheless continue to make decent military technology, and to have the uniquely Germanic social militarization patterns in their institutions? The Germans who shot their own patrolling a huge "peacetime" pickett? The Germans who boss around the rest of Europe?
    , @JMcG
    Jack, a little self awareness wouldn’t hurt. You must realize what you sound like when you categorically assert that a death toll higher than 25000 in Dresden is false, but that any number below 6,000,000 for the Holocaust is also categorically false. Neither you nor I know either of those figures to be accurate.
  121. anon[282] • Disclaimer says:

    >But how often [do panics] really happen?

    This is definitely Black Swan territory (unquantifiable risk with huge magnitude of effect). But they definitely happen. It’s also a conflation to then jump to street-violence-Simpsons-style, specifically.

    Bank runs (before legislation) and stampedes resulting in death– neither uncommon. In 2017 there were non-trivial gasoline shortages in Texas. Not because of the actual effects of Hurricane Harvey, but because of the fear/anticipation that there might be shortages. Self-fulfilling prophecy thing. Social media sparked or fueled. But once the ball gets rolling, one must rationally participate in and exacerbate the situation (top the tank off) to avoid getting personally screwed over.

    Irrational pogrom and lynching paranoia exists, but Panics more generally are not to be taken lightly, imho.

    TLDR: Panic vs. mob mentality not the same

  122. Panic in the Streets?

    Buy.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    Buy.
     
    If you believe US markets we're going to be loading up on AMD CPUs and Nvidia GPUs while we're under quarantine the next few weeks...
  123. I tend to think that angry, violent mob behavior needs an emotional trigger and close proximity to something considered the “cause” or responsible for the problem.

    A “panic” is more immediate. This might be created by smoke, visible fire, rumor, gun shots or what is thought to be those, and loud noises/explosions. Something where your primitive brain decides that the “flight” response is needed, not “fight.” This is nearly always purely instinctual and not even emotional. Much less rational.

    Of course there can be mixtures, but in panic you want to bug out, not attack someone.

    Most WWII civilian bombing, and much of the infrastructural bombing, did little to hurt morale. This wasn’t what British Air “Admiral” Bomber Harris had predicted. As someone already mentioned, the WWI reaction differed from WWII. Plus, the first time something bad/weird occurs, it is startling. So panic might be rational. The second and subsequent times, we already know what is happening and better judge the rational reactions. Still, people vary.

    Some will run blindly for exits or perceived safety, even when it traps them. Others shut down and zone out, not moving.

    The COVID-19 type of “panic” is long term worry stuff. Buying masks, extra food, etc.

    I might add that the Dems Open Border mania seems to have vanished in the wake of Chinese virus fears. What no borders? No worry! Mr. Wong here is just visiting. They always sweat like that…

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    The COVID-19 type of “panic” is long term worry stuff. Buying masks, extra food, etc.

     

    Yes, this is true. It's also different because a virus is (potentially) carried and spread by the people you meet, i.e. your neighbors, which is very different from facing a purely external threat such as a hurricane or even your country's enemy dropping bombs on your city.

    This is one reason people try very, very hard to blame outbreaks of disease on outsiders. It's not pleasant treating your neighbors as pariahs, and them doing the same to you.
  124. @Jonathan Mason
    I was in Port au Prince, Haiti a few days after the devastating earthquake of 2010.

    There were no signs whatsoever of rioting, looting, or civil disorder, even though I hardly saw a single cop in the two weeks I was there, since most of them were dead. People were making orderly lines at Western Union waiting to receive money from overseas at the only place that still had a working generator and a satellite dish.

    Pop up businesses were flourishing on the sidewalk where people were camping, and entrepreneurs with small gasoline generators were recharging people's cell phones for a small fee, and making fruit drinks with blenders.

    In spite of this the media (CNN etc.) were making a big deal about UN troops being brought in to prevent civil disorder. While I was there I hardly saw any UN troops, except around the airport, and the worst civil disorder I saw was a traffic jam caused by a UN armored troop carrier driving the wrong way on a divided highway causing a massive traffic jam. Of course the fact that the traffic lights were all out did not help.

    The UN troops were busy setting up perimiters around at the properties for which the Clinton Foundation had designs.

  125. @Anonymous
    Apparently, the aircraft then in use were unable(!) to match in speed and altitude such a big, fat and obvious juicy target as 300ft inflated flying bag of hydrogen gas.
    In the later years, improvements gave biplanes the upper hand, and the Zeppelins tumbled like nine pins.
    At the very end of the war, the Germans resumed the bombing of London with the extraordinary heavy Gotha bomber - a real beast of an airplane.

    The Gotha bombers were indeed impressive, but you are probably thinking of the Zeppelin-Staaken R.XVI.

    I still have a hard time imagining such an aircraft could exist just 15 years after the Wright brothers’ first flight!

  126. Our number one concern is stop to prevent panic and disorder.

    Exactly. That’s why it’s called “social security”, not “individual security”. They had those veterans’ matches in mind.

    Oh, and there was that little business in 1789…

  127. Anon[242] • Disclaimer says:

    When Covid-19 comes here, the US is not going to quarantine. The only sort of quarantine that might work would have to last at least 4-5 months. But a recent survey indicated 78% of workers said they live from paycheck to paycheck.

    You can’t quarantine someone in an apartment who can’t pay their rent, and who has just had their landlord show with an eviction notice. The average person, if unable to make their car payment, will just look at the death rate (low for working age brackets) and say, okay, let’s go back to work, rather than have their car repossessed.

    The average person has already made an us-vs-them calculation. They’ve bought supplies for when they themselves get sick, but other than that, they’re going back to work.

    Our elites know this already. Our elites have made the cold-blooded calculation that Covid-19 would benefit our population. If older people die, it eases the burden on our social security trust fund. It also will cause a wealth transfer from Boomers to their poor Millennial kids.

    The Millennials will finally be able to afford housing and pay off student loans, and get a start on saving for their own retirement. It will likely cause a drop in property values on the coasts, which will make it easier even for Millennials who didn’t lose their parents or inherit anything to buy houses. But once part of the ‘the system,’ and being in the position of having to pay higher taxes themselves, Millennials will be taken aback and start voting more Republican. None of them will want to see their new inheritances being grabbed by greedy socialists like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren to pay off ghetto blacks and illegal Hispanics immigrants. The Reagan Revolution of the 1980s, which saw a lot of wealth going to Boomers, flipped a lot of them from 1960s Democrats to Reagan Republicans. Covid-19 could achieve the same thing.

    • Replies: @Travis
    In the United states 70 million people are over the age of 60 today.

    If the virus spreads rapidly and 1% of the elderly succumb to coronavirus, it would result in an additional 700,000 elderly deaths this year. Last year about 2 million baby boomers passed away.
  128. @Sergeant Prepper

    The book’s thesis was that humans in crowds were naturally full of “Impulsiveness, irritability, incapacity to reason, and the absence of judgement of the critical spirit…
     
    If this applies to any group in the current situation, at all, it arguably applies to the crowd in charge of the Chinese Communist Party... far as I can tell, they completely over-reacted to an over-estimated fatality rate, and came up with a cure that will probably turn out to have done much more damage than the disease. At this point, I'd say the threat to your investment portfolio is considerably bigger than the threat to your health.

    Then again, what do I know.

    far as I can tell, they completely over-reacted to an over-estimated fatality rate

    Watch Iran.

    • Replies: @Sergeant Prepper

    Watch Iran
     
    I do watch it, and it turns out that some Ayatollah in Qom already found a cure: visit the holy outbreak sites, and perfume your anus with lavender oil. No, really, I kid you not: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric
  129. @Jack D

    After the war, German officers secretly visited London and saw how little material damage their air raids actually did.
     
    That's because they didn't try hard enough. Only 667 were killed in London during the course of the entire war. Contrast Operation Gomorrah, which killed 35,000 civilians in Hamburg in one week or the firebombing of Dresden which killed 25,000 in only 3 nights (higher numbers are bandied about but they are false - either Nazi or later Soviet propaganda but 25,000 is a big number without having to exaggerate).

    It's true that these raids didn't cause "panic". It's even true that they didn't destroy war production since factories were moved underground, etc. and because "dehoused" workers often stayed at work more since they no longer had homes to go back to at night. But you have to say that they did ultimately undermine German morale and support for the war, not that the Nazis were asking for public support. In the long run, they may have finally given the Germans a permanent distaste for military adventures, which they had loved as much as they loved beer from Roman times onward.

    >you have to say
    No.
    The conclusions of history (and the technocrats studying it at the time) is the opposite. Really odd argument to try to make considering that the Germans were defeated as harshly as any nation has ever been, by direct conquest and not an illogical surrender resulting from demonstrations of Allied mercy.
    >Germans lost their taste for war
    Are you talking about the literally militarily occupied and thoroughly brainwashed modern Germans, who nevertheless continue to make decent military technology, and to have the uniquely Germanic social militarization patterns in their institutions? The Germans who shot their own patrolling a huge “peacetime” pickett? The Germans who boss around the rest of Europe?

    • Replies: @Jack D

    The conclusions of history (and the technocrats studying it at the time) is the opposite. Really odd argument to try to make considering that the Germans were defeated as harshly as any nation has ever been, by direct conquest and not an illogical surrender resulting from demonstrations of Allied mercy.
     
    This is not inconsistent with what I said (and I said nothing about Allied mercy - the Allies indicated that the war would end upon the German's unconditional surrender and they stuck to this.) Because the Nazi regime was a harsh dictatorship that brooked no public dissent and was willing to fight to (almost) the last man, it is impossible to judge wartime German public sentiment and such sentiment was largely irrelevant anyway - no one was asking them. But clearly by the end of the war, the Germans were pretty sick of it and I think that it is a fair guess that the Allied bombing contributed to their unhappiness. One way to judge this is that there was little if any German popular resistance to the Allies after the surrender.

    My personal conclusion is that the Allied bombing of civilian targets (accomplished at huge cost in lives and materiel) was largely ineffective in shortening the war but it did result in a more lasting peace. All of WWI fighting took place outside of Germany and this lack of destruction contributed to the German's willingness to undertake round II. By contrast, (especially in the east), the damage from WWII was still visible 40 years later and this served as a daily reminder of the consequences of war.
  130. @Reg Cæsar

    Panic in the Streets?
     
    Buy.

    Buy.

    If you believe US markets we’re going to be loading up on AMD CPUs and Nvidia GPUs while we’re under quarantine the next few weeks…

  131. @Jack D

    After the war, German officers secretly visited London and saw how little material damage their air raids actually did.
     
    That's because they didn't try hard enough. Only 667 were killed in London during the course of the entire war. Contrast Operation Gomorrah, which killed 35,000 civilians in Hamburg in one week or the firebombing of Dresden which killed 25,000 in only 3 nights (higher numbers are bandied about but they are false - either Nazi or later Soviet propaganda but 25,000 is a big number without having to exaggerate).

    It's true that these raids didn't cause "panic". It's even true that they didn't destroy war production since factories were moved underground, etc. and because "dehoused" workers often stayed at work more since they no longer had homes to go back to at night. But you have to say that they did ultimately undermine German morale and support for the war, not that the Nazis were asking for public support. In the long run, they may have finally given the Germans a permanent distaste for military adventures, which they had loved as much as they loved beer from Roman times onward.

    Jack, a little self awareness wouldn’t hurt. You must realize what you sound like when you categorically assert that a death toll higher than 25000 in Dresden is false, but that any number below 6,000,000 for the Holocaust is also categorically false. Neither you nor I know either of those figures to be accurate.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I am merely repeating the mainstream historic consensus, which I fully accept. Obviously I did not personally count the number of dead in Dresden or Auschwitz. However, I, unlike some here, am not a contrarian. If most "respectable" historians, backed by the contemporary sources that are available, arrive at a number of roughly 25,000 dead, I am inclined to believe them and not a bunch of Neo-nazis.

    According to the wiki, "Seeking to establish a definitive casualty figure, in part to address propagandisation of the bombing by far-right groups, the Dresden city council in 2005 authorized an independent Historian's Commission (Historikerkommission) to conduct a new, thorough investigation, collecting and evaluating available sources. The results were published in 2010 and stated that between 22,700[3] and 25,000 people[4] were killed."

    That's good enough for me.
  132. @Lugash
    If you believe the official fatality rate they over-reacted. I think the actual books show a much, much higher death toll(probably on the order of 10x) and they're reacting to that. When they official death toll was around ~1000 there were videos showing bodies being left in the hallways, waiting room and on the street, indicating the system was overwhelmed.

    I’m just about the only person on the internets who is not an expert of pandemics, so take everything I say with a few bags of salt. Now that that’s out of the way:

    Yes, I saw some of those videos, and initially came to the same conclusion as you did. Since then, I’ve had second thoughts. Firstly, far as I can tell, claims that the fatality rate is upwards of 2% is basically calculated by dividing known deaths by confirmed cases. Yet confirmed cases excludes all the people who only have mild symptoms and never contact a doctor (or who are told they do not fit the criteria) … i.e. there’s probably a pretty large “dark number”, and since it is a novel virus, it is more difficult to guess how big the dark number is. Secondly, I can’t get the doomsday scenarios to fit with e.g. the figures we have from the Diamond Princess cruise ship: more than 3700 people are stuck on a ship for 39 days. Only around 700 of them are infected, and only 4 die. That gives you an infection rate of roughly 19% of the total population, and the mortality rate among the infected is about 0.5% (0.1% of the total population on the ship). Moreover, while I’m not a regular on the cruise ship circuit, my impression is that it is not exactly the young and the fit who go on those cruises: it is the old and the obese. So you’d think an epidemic would hit them harder than a normal population.

    Maybe there are some obvious mistakes in my reasoning, but as it stands, none of this seems to me to fit with the more dramatic stories. So, until new information becomes available that gives me reason to revise my revisions, I think I won’t bother to go into panic mode just yet. But just to be on the safe side, I have enough food, water, and so forth to survive comfortably for quite a few months… I call myself Sergeant Prepper for a reason;-)

    • Replies: @Smithsonian_6

    Only around 700 of them are infected, and only 4 die. That gives you an infection rate of roughly 19% of the total population, and the mortality rate among the infected is about 0.5%
     
    This is because that number have first-rate medical care.
    About 20% of cases are severe and need hospitalisation and treatment. In the event of a pandemic, that amount of care won't be available to all who need it and so the death rate will increase. Case fatality is currently running at about 5% in Iran, anal lavender notwithstanding.
  133. @anonymous
    Are you referring to this NYT article? Doesn't look like there was much looting in Kobe. One store clerk says he saw foreigners, but doesn't mention Koreans.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/world/quake-japan-scene-kobe-s-survivors-try-adjust-hand-ringing-relief-laughter.html

    There was one clear case of looting. On Thursday, several young men heaved a rock through a window of a mini-market and grabbed some food and ran. "I don't know how much was taken, because everything was still on the floor from the earthquake, and we didn't have time to count the missing merchandise," a store clerk said.

    Asked if he was surprised that Japanese should engage in such Los Angeles-style practices as post-earthquake looting, the store clerk was momentarily dumbfounded.

    "No, you misunderstood," he said firmly. "These looters weren't Japanese. They were foreigners. We saw them. Three young foreign guys."
     

    ” One store clerk says he saw foreigners, but doesn’t mention Koreans.” – He meant Koreans though he did not want hurt their feelings.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    He meant Koreans though he did not want hurt their feelings.

    You literally just pulled that out of your rear... Your original claim was that Japanese were blaming Koreans for looting during 1995 Hanshin earthquake. Your source for this is a NYTimes article which claims one store was broken into and that the store clerk told the NYT author (Nicholas Kristof) that the perps were 2-3 foreigners (may or may not be true). The author says he isn't talking about Koreans. He only brings up Koreans to talk about the 1923 Kanto earthquake in hindsight. He then emphasizes that Koreans weren't being discriminated against in the 1995 Hanshin earthquake.

    He retells the clerk story in 2011; again uses "foreigners".

    http://www.startribune.com/nicholas-kristof-japan-s-big-quake/117832113/

    This narrative comes entirely from you. You make one claim that turns out to be false. Then you double down by making stuff up out of thin air and claiming it as a fact.
  134. @Anonymous
    The 1939 Japanese bombing of Chungking (as it was then romanized) did seem to provoke some panic among Chinese residents:

    https://i.imgur.com/2RLNZiD.png

    While white residents seem to have held more to the "Keep calm and carry on" ethos:

    https://i.imgur.com/5EwfBJm.png

    Stephen Hosmer's RAND study, Psychological Effects of U.S. Air Operations in Four Wars, notes, "Air attacks on strategic targets in World War II generally fell short of producing the psychological results their planners hoped for. This was particularly true of Germany, where the Allied bombing of cities failed to deny labor to German industry. However, the psychological effects of the Allied bombing did speed Japan's decision to surrender and helped shape Italy's decision to seek a peace accord."

    Rand. Hardehar. Really? Rand. Hardehar.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    Yes. Aside from the Deep State/Dr. Strangelove reputation which it entirely deserves, RAND actually was a pathbreaking think tank, with fundamental contributions in applied mathematics in the area of systems analysis, operations research and economic theory.

    The quality of research output from RAND in the late 1940s and 1950s is greatly responsible for the existence of the entire Washington DC beltway consulting industry—that crowd got their start and rode off the reflected glow of RAND's reputation as deep thinkers.

    Albeit, RANDs early output was a couple of orders of magnitude of higher quality.
  135. @Smithsonian_6

    far as I can tell, they completely over-reacted to an over-estimated fatality rate
     
    Watch Iran.

    Watch Iran

    I do watch it, and it turns out that some Ayatollah in Qom already found a cure: visit the holy outbreak sites, and perfume your anus with lavender oil. No, really, I kid you not: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric

    • Replies: @Smithsonian_6

    I do watch it, and it turns out that some Ayatollah in Qom already found a cure: visit the holy outbreak sites, and perfume your anus with lavender oil. No, really, I kid you not: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric
     
    Interesting... Do let us know how you get on with it.
  136. @Federalist
    In the aftermath of Katrina, many people were trying to find a way out and/or trying to survive; some people were arming themselves to protect their property; and many were stealing whatever they could get their hands on. But there really wasn't much in the way of panic.

    Exactly. All those (mostly black) people utterly passively waiting it out in the Superdome and the Convention Center were not panicking. The police, of course, were panicking. Big time. That’s what to worry about. Police panic.

    • Replies: @Federalist
    How did the police panic? Unsurprisingly, a lot of the NOPD either failed to even attempt to fulfill their obligations as police officers or joined in the looting. But I don't know how they panicked.
  137. @Anonymous
    It all depends on *who* is being bombed, flooded, besieged, earth-quaked etc etc.

    Compare and contrast Hurricane Katrina with the the Kobe earthquake.

    “It was hard to avoid the conclusion that the looting had begun even before the first tower fell, and that while hundreds of doomed firemen had climbed through the wounded buildings, this particular crew had engaged in something else entirely, of course without the slightest suspicion that the South Tower was about to hammer down.”

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-nov-19-et-kennedy19-story.html

  138. ERDOGAN GETTING WRECKED, TRYING TO TAKE IT OUT ON EU WITH 72 HOUR “REFUGEE” FLOOD GUARANTEED TO INCLUDE TERRORISTS
    Known:
    Syria is on the cusp of retaking longtime terrorist stronghold Idlib.
    Russia bombed it in support.
    The bombing killed a huge number of Turkish soldiers.
    Erdogan retaliated by opening borders and allowing direct passage into Europe from the terrorist stronghold now looking to get out of dodge. So this not only solves his own “refugee” crisis (which was considerable) but hopefully enables him to avoid having to absorb brainwashed Idlib terrorists.
    Greece is strengthening its border following this and an earlier crisis where anti-“refugee” protesters successfully attacked riot cops.
    Russian brought two frigates and probably more assets into theater.
    Rumored:
    Russia has actually killed several more Turkish soldiers in multiple bombings.
    Some of the Turks were high ranking.
    Haftar in Libya is smashing Turkish soldiers in the Maghrib.

  139. @Morton's toes
    I was in New Orleans Katrina for more than a day and I didn't see any misbehavior at all. My neighbor drove me to Baton Rouge and she didn't even know I was going to give her money for it until I got out of the car and gave her money before I said thank you very much.

    I did notice on the I-10 in the other direction there was a big line of trucks filled with soldiers with machine guns but that was the single most disturbing thing I saw with my own eyes. Then when I got a hotel room I go by the lounge and there is O'Reilly on Fox yammering about chaos and mayhem in New Orleans.

    There you go. The TRUTH. Eyewitness truth. As opposed to the insane, lying, basement-dwelling blatherings of the troglodytes on here who think they have their finger on the pulse of human nature through the genius of watching TV. FACT: No panic in New Orleans; except for cops and soldiers.

    • Replies: @Patrick in SC
    No, no "panic."

    Just cold, calculated, and in some cases gleeful, looting. And over at the Super Dome, squalor and rape.

    You're as bad at polemics as "Corvinus Virus."
  140. @Paco Wové
    "the chaotic aftermath, the total breakdown of civilization there for the better part of a week, the mass looting, the violence, the descent to Haiti."

    George Bush made them do it.

    “George Bush doesn’t care about Black people!” — Kanye West, Sept. 2, 2005, NBC, to a live audience of millions

    Kanye elaborated:

    I hate the way they portray us in the media. You see a black family, it says, ‘They’re looting.’ You see a white family, it says, ‘They’re looking for food.’ And, you know, it’s been five days [waiting for federal help] because most of the people are black.

  141. Well, it’s game over for New World isolation. Mexico has its first case today. It’ll spread into the Hispanic population trying to sneak over the border into the US pretty rapidly this way. The US and Canada have been trying to contain it somewhat, but Mexico won’t even bother.

  142. @Ragno
    Amazing how unvetted footage of civilizational collapse during Katrina - broadcast live as it became available, and seen by everyone with working eyeballs and a television set - magically became so many racist/rightist conspiracy theories (all thoroughly and authoritatively "debunked", of course) a few years later. Who are you going to believe? - government apparatchiks with the power to punish skeptics, or your own eyes?

    Never mind that those of us living in the area, or with family there, saw or experienced things we'd once believed impossible in first-world nations. How'd you like to have been an Australian tourist trapped in the Superdome that week? The ones who did had some pretty heavy-duty first-person witness accounts to relate, but never mind. Any reality that might reflect less than luminously on our African-American underclass became a debunked "urban legend" soon enough, and by media fiat.

    Rest assured: should the Left prevail in their wishful thinking - for plague and panic - the very last place you're going to want to be is near any concentrations of POC. Compare, please, the immediate fallout from Katrina - "debunked" or not - with the peaceful and cooperative spirit among the mostly-palefaces during the Iowa flood of 2008.

    Not one of the most dramatic Katrina scenes, but this one is worth a mention:

    Emergency food was rushed in for the assembled Blacks who had been rescued from the flooded section-8 buildings, or etc. Many of them refused the food, which was of emergency-ration type. In refusing, a group of them demanded “McDonalds” be brought in instead. This was reported by a major news agency, I think a foreign one.

  143. @Anonymous
    OT:

    https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/02/dear-prudence-dna-genetic-tests-pride-about-race-advice.html

    DEAR PRUDENCE

    Help! My Husband Is Proud His DNA Test Doesn’t Show “Any Black” in Him.

    Q. Is bragging about DNA results racist? My husband and his friend were recently bragging about their 23andMe results. They are both Caucasian. They mentioned several times, and were pretty smug about, the fact that they don’t have “any black in them.” I was speechless. I felt like my husband was a stranger after 22 years (17 married). I am Puerto Rican. Our son and half of my family are obviously of African descent. I may be overreacting, but it felt like a betrayal. I mentioned it to him later and he said I was overreacting. But I can’t forget about this conversation. This was six months ago and every time I think about the comment, it makes me upset. I have not mentioned it again, but I feel like I must. Am I crazy to be so worried about this?

    A: Yes, it’s incredibly racist. Your husband and his friend were being incredibly racist. He said you were overreacting when you brought it up because he was defensive about his racism and wanted to make you feel bad for noticing it. Your husband, after nearly two decades of marriage, suddenly spent an entire conversation crowing about not being black, rejoicing in his shared whiteness with another man in front of you, then insisted you were the problem for noticing his racism. Of course you can’t stop thinking about it; of course it makes you upset. I encourage you to mention this again not only to him but to your friends and family so they can better support you as you figure out what you want to do next. Stay worried! This is worth being worried about.

     

    This is really funny stuff. Say what you want about the wokerati, but they are easy to troll and react pretty amusingly most of the time. At least we will have on-board entertainment as the ship goes down.

    I’d say 50/50 the person who wrote in is trolling but 100 percent chance ‘Prudence’ was being serious.

    I especially love the attempts to apply SJW standards to personal relationships. There’s something very desperate about that.

  144. @Charles Pewitt
    Fat Ass Baby Boomer Asset Bubble Boy Stawk Mahket Genius Trump Loves Maria Bartiromo's White Gloves -- Or A Couple Of Other Things That Bartiromo's Got.

    Bartiromo Would've Handled The Field Goal Attempt Long Snap.

    This baby boomer tart Trump wants negative interest rates, badly.

    Even the baby boomer douchebags at the New York Times had to put the still small asset bubble stock market losses in perspective to calm the panic of the greedy globalizer baby boomer vultures.

    The Pewitt Plan to pop the asset bubbles will prune 90 percent of the value of the stock market in a few days. First raise the federal funds rate to 20 percent and then stop all monetary extremism -- repo madness, dollar swaps, low interest rates, asset purchases(quantitative easing), direct purchases of stocks, Fed balance sheet ballooning and all the other crud.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1230155765349928960?s=20

    https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1232795006794072064?s=20

    Where can I get some of whatever you are smoking? It sounds like fun.

  145. @Sergeant Prepper

    Watch Iran
     
    I do watch it, and it turns out that some Ayatollah in Qom already found a cure: visit the holy outbreak sites, and perfume your anus with lavender oil. No, really, I kid you not: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric

    I do watch it, and it turns out that some Ayatollah in Qom already found a cure: visit the holy outbreak sites, and perfume your anus with lavender oil. No, really, I kid you not: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric

    Interesting… Do let us know how you get on with it.

  146. @Jack D
    I love the last frame. In the old days, references to homosexuality it popular culture were supposed to be taboo but in fact they were there all along, just (not so deeply) buried. There have long been rumors about Lawrence's sexuality and what the Turks did to him when he was captured and whether he actually liked it (or whether it was really a just rape fantasy such as women often have and never really happened). The other possibility is that he told this tale just to stir up hatred against the Turks.

  147. @Morton's toes
    I was in New Orleans Katrina for more than a day and I didn't see any misbehavior at all. My neighbor drove me to Baton Rouge and she didn't even know I was going to give her money for it until I got out of the car and gave her money before I said thank you very much.

    I did notice on the I-10 in the other direction there was a big line of trucks filled with soldiers with machine guns but that was the single most disturbing thing I saw with my own eyes. Then when I got a hotel room I go by the lounge and there is O'Reilly on Fox yammering about chaos and mayhem in New Orleans.

    There was quite a lot of looting. But the rumors of mass violence were greatly exaggerated. Its not that the people there were apt to be well-behaved. With the flooding and loss of almost all benefits of modern society, people were mostly trying to survive and/or reach a place where they could be evacuated. It’s not like people could turn up in large numbers to riot.

  148. @obwandiyag
    There you go. The TRUTH. Eyewitness truth. As opposed to the insane, lying, basement-dwelling blatherings of the troglodytes on here who think they have their finger on the pulse of human nature through the genius of watching TV. FACT: No panic in New Orleans; except for cops and soldiers.

    No, no “panic.”

    Just cold, calculated, and in some cases gleeful, looting. And over at the Super Dome, squalor and rape.

    You’re as bad at polemics as “Corvinus Virus.”

  149. @Sergeant Prepper
    I'm just about the only person on the internets who is not an expert of pandemics, so take everything I say with a few bags of salt. Now that that's out of the way:

    Yes, I saw some of those videos, and initially came to the same conclusion as you did. Since then, I've had second thoughts. Firstly, far as I can tell, claims that the fatality rate is upwards of 2% is basically calculated by dividing known deaths by confirmed cases. Yet confirmed cases excludes all the people who only have mild symptoms and never contact a doctor (or who are told they do not fit the criteria) ... i.e. there's probably a pretty large "dark number", and since it is a novel virus, it is more difficult to guess how big the dark number is. Secondly, I can't get the doomsday scenarios to fit with e.g. the figures we have from the Diamond Princess cruise ship: more than 3700 people are stuck on a ship for 39 days. Only around 700 of them are infected, and only 4 die. That gives you an infection rate of roughly 19% of the total population, and the mortality rate among the infected is about 0.5% (0.1% of the total population on the ship). Moreover, while I'm not a regular on the cruise ship circuit, my impression is that it is not exactly the young and the fit who go on those cruises: it is the old and the obese. So you'd think an epidemic would hit them harder than a normal population.

    Maybe there are some obvious mistakes in my reasoning, but as it stands, none of this seems to me to fit with the more dramatic stories. So, until new information becomes available that gives me reason to revise my revisions, I think I won't bother to go into panic mode just yet. But just to be on the safe side, I have enough food, water, and so forth to survive comfortably for quite a few months... I call myself Sergeant Prepper for a reason;-)

    Only around 700 of them are infected, and only 4 die. That gives you an infection rate of roughly 19% of the total population, and the mortality rate among the infected is about 0.5%

    This is because that number have first-rate medical care.
    About 20% of cases are severe and need hospitalisation and treatment. In the event of a pandemic, that amount of care won’t be available to all who need it and so the death rate will increase. Case fatality is currently running at about 5% in Iran, anal lavender notwithstanding.

  150. @Lot
    I don’t think jokes from the early to mid 2oth c. about men being effeminate were taboo at all or implied homosexuality.

    Rather they were usually just what they appeared to be: funny jokes about men being unmanly, funny in silly Mrs. Doubtfire and Uncle Arthur way.

    The audience was correctly assumed to mostly have no “gaydar” and didn’t have a strong association between certain traits and homosexuality that we now broadly have.

    https://ukjarry.blogspot.com/2007/12/32-gay-lib-mad-magazine.html

    from “Greeting Cards for the Sexual Revolution” in “Mad”, September 1971

  151. @indocon
    As it has been pointed out by several other folks, this press conference was a perfect opportunity for him to bring in all the favorite topics in a single theme - trade, border controls, immigration. But he is fixated on the stock market as the singular metric for his perceived success, this very well may be something that takes him down finally.

    In a hypothetical scenario where the stock market goes to zero, the deplorable's on our side still have their land, all the minerals on those lands, trucks, guns, and gold. Their people's net worth goes down to zero except some fine wine in their wine caves.

    As it has been pointed out by several other folks, this press conference was a perfect opportunity for him to bring in all the favorite topics in a single theme – trade, border controls, immigration. But he is fixated on the stock market as the singular metric for his perceived success, this very well may be something that takes him down finally.

    In a hypothetical scenario where the stock market goes to zero, the deplorable’s on our side still have their land, all the minerals on those lands, trucks, guns, and gold. Their people’s net worth goes down to zero except some fine wine in their wine caves.

    It’s depressing–the incoherence, all the missed opportunities–but he’s the closest thing to a nationalist on offer.

    He has pushed the Overton window a bit and has definitely pissed off all the right people–sending good-thinkers into apoplectic lunacy. That’s been fun to watch.

    • Agree: Dissident
  152. @JMcG
    Jack, a little self awareness wouldn’t hurt. You must realize what you sound like when you categorically assert that a death toll higher than 25000 in Dresden is false, but that any number below 6,000,000 for the Holocaust is also categorically false. Neither you nor I know either of those figures to be accurate.

    I am merely repeating the mainstream historic consensus, which I fully accept. Obviously I did not personally count the number of dead in Dresden or Auschwitz. However, I, unlike some here, am not a contrarian. If most “respectable” historians, backed by the contemporary sources that are available, arrive at a number of roughly 25,000 dead, I am inclined to believe them and not a bunch of Neo-nazis.

    According to the wiki, “Seeking to establish a definitive casualty figure, in part to address propagandisation of the bombing by far-right groups, the Dresden city council in 2005 authorized an independent Historian’s Commission (Historikerkommission) to conduct a new, thorough investigation, collecting and evaluating available sources. The results were published in 2010 and stated that between 22,700[3] and 25,000 people[4] were killed.”

    That’s good enough for me.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    Fair enough.
  153. @obwandiyag
    Exactly. All those (mostly black) people utterly passively waiting it out in the Superdome and the Convention Center were not panicking. The police, of course, were panicking. Big time. That's what to worry about. Police panic.

    How did the police panic? Unsurprisingly, a lot of the NOPD either failed to even attempt to fulfill their obligations as police officers or joined in the looting. But I don’t know how they panicked.

  154. @Anon
    When Covid-19 comes here, the US is not going to quarantine. The only sort of quarantine that might work would have to last at least 4-5 months. But a recent survey indicated 78% of workers said they live from paycheck to paycheck.

    You can't quarantine someone in an apartment who can't pay their rent, and who has just had their landlord show with an eviction notice. The average person, if unable to make their car payment, will just look at the death rate (low for working age brackets) and say, okay, let's go back to work, rather than have their car repossessed.

    The average person has already made an us-vs-them calculation. They've bought supplies for when they themselves get sick, but other than that, they're going back to work.

    Our elites know this already. Our elites have made the cold-blooded calculation that Covid-19 would benefit our population. If older people die, it eases the burden on our social security trust fund. It also will cause a wealth transfer from Boomers to their poor Millennial kids.

    The Millennials will finally be able to afford housing and pay off student loans, and get a start on saving for their own retirement. It will likely cause a drop in property values on the coasts, which will make it easier even for Millennials who didn't lose their parents or inherit anything to buy houses. But once part of the 'the system,' and being in the position of having to pay higher taxes themselves, Millennials will be taken aback and start voting more Republican. None of them will want to see their new inheritances being grabbed by greedy socialists like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren to pay off ghetto blacks and illegal Hispanics immigrants. The Reagan Revolution of the 1980s, which saw a lot of wealth going to Boomers, flipped a lot of them from 1960s Democrats to Reagan Republicans. Covid-19 could achieve the same thing.

    In the United states 70 million people are over the age of 60 today.

    If the virus spreads rapidly and 1% of the elderly succumb to coronavirus, it would result in an additional 700,000 elderly deaths this year. Last year about 2 million baby boomers passed away.

    • Replies: @Jack D

    Last year about 2 million baby boomers passed away.
     
    Where did you get this number from? The total # of deaths last year in the US was around 2.8 million and the baby boomers account for the cohort that was between age 55 and 74 (with average life expectancy being around 78 ). Were more than 2 out of 3 deaths in this group? I doubt it.

    Remember that those who were born (or even conceived) before the end of the war are NOT boomers. Sanders, Biden, etc. - NOT boomers. Trump barely qualifies.
    , @82-IQ H1B Indian
    The virus is disproportionately more lethal for old patients. So it will not be 1% for those over 70. It could be anything from 1% to 10% (or more!)

    BTW Santa Clara county found second case of infected patient (65 year old women). Its almost certain now that this is spreading at least in North California.
  155. @J.Ross
    >you have to say
    No.
    The conclusions of history (and the technocrats studying it at the time) is the opposite. Really odd argument to try to make considering that the Germans were defeated as harshly as any nation has ever been, by direct conquest and not an illogical surrender resulting from demonstrations of Allied mercy.
    >Germans lost their taste for war
    Are you talking about the literally militarily occupied and thoroughly brainwashed modern Germans, who nevertheless continue to make decent military technology, and to have the uniquely Germanic social militarization patterns in their institutions? The Germans who shot their own patrolling a huge "peacetime" pickett? The Germans who boss around the rest of Europe?

    The conclusions of history (and the technocrats studying it at the time) is the opposite. Really odd argument to try to make considering that the Germans were defeated as harshly as any nation has ever been, by direct conquest and not an illogical surrender resulting from demonstrations of Allied mercy.

    This is not inconsistent with what I said (and I said nothing about Allied mercy – the Allies indicated that the war would end upon the German’s unconditional surrender and they stuck to this.) Because the Nazi regime was a harsh dictatorship that brooked no public dissent and was willing to fight to (almost) the last man, it is impossible to judge wartime German public sentiment and such sentiment was largely irrelevant anyway – no one was asking them. But clearly by the end of the war, the Germans were pretty sick of it and I think that it is a fair guess that the Allied bombing contributed to their unhappiness. One way to judge this is that there was little if any German popular resistance to the Allies after the surrender.

    My personal conclusion is that the Allied bombing of civilian targets (accomplished at huge cost in lives and materiel) was largely ineffective in shortening the war but it did result in a more lasting peace. All of WWI fighting took place outside of Germany and this lack of destruction contributed to the German’s willingness to undertake round II. By contrast, (especially in the east), the damage from WWII was still visible 40 years later and this served as a daily reminder of the consequences of war.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
  156. @Travis
    In the United states 70 million people are over the age of 60 today.

    If the virus spreads rapidly and 1% of the elderly succumb to coronavirus, it would result in an additional 700,000 elderly deaths this year. Last year about 2 million baby boomers passed away.

    Last year about 2 million baby boomers passed away.

    Where did you get this number from? The total # of deaths last year in the US was around 2.8 million and the baby boomers account for the cohort that was between age 55 and 74 (with average life expectancy being around 78 ). Were more than 2 out of 3 deaths in this group? I doubt it.

    Remember that those who were born (or even conceived) before the end of the war are NOT boomers. Sanders, Biden, etc. – NOT boomers. Trump barely qualifies.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    Where did you get this number from? The total # of deaths last year in the US was around 2.8 million and the baby boomers account for the cohort that was between age 55 and 74 (with average life expectancy being around 78 ). Were more than 2 out of 3 deaths in this group? I doubt it.
     
    You are correct.

    Just doing some back of the envelope on the SSA actuarial tables--which i was looking at the other day, you'll only come up with maybe 1 million boomer deaths:
    Let's call 56-74 boomers.
    Here's the SSA actualial table (2016, but i doubt the rates have changed much).
    https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html

    The death rate is about 0.8% and is ticking up at <.1% a year--hitting 1% at 58--until about 65, but then really starts climbing above 70, so at a Trumpian, lead boomer, 74 it is 3.3%. Boomers are back loaded--the peak in 1957. So figure the 1.5% at 65 isn't wildly off for the boomers in total. 72 million folks dying at 1.5%--call it a million.

    There are still something like 22-23m pre-boomer (75 and up) folks doddering around. And clearly they are doing the serious dying.


    Searching around for the CDC info:
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_09-508.pdf

    Go to page 23 and Table 2 has deaths per age cohort. The four boomer 5 year cohorts--55-74--account for about 900K, the pre-boomer 75+ crew over 1.5 million.

    55–59. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 162,098
    60–64 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 209,908
    65–69. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 248,087
    70–74 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 283,523

    75–79. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 307,498
    80–84. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 350,261
    85 and over . . . . . . . . . . . 878,035

    The so very eagerly anticipated boomercaust ... started, but not yet fully underway.
  157. @Jack D
    I am merely repeating the mainstream historic consensus, which I fully accept. Obviously I did not personally count the number of dead in Dresden or Auschwitz. However, I, unlike some here, am not a contrarian. If most "respectable" historians, backed by the contemporary sources that are available, arrive at a number of roughly 25,000 dead, I am inclined to believe them and not a bunch of Neo-nazis.

    According to the wiki, "Seeking to establish a definitive casualty figure, in part to address propagandisation of the bombing by far-right groups, the Dresden city council in 2005 authorized an independent Historian's Commission (Historikerkommission) to conduct a new, thorough investigation, collecting and evaluating available sources. The results were published in 2010 and stated that between 22,700[3] and 25,000 people[4] were killed."

    That's good enough for me.

    Fair enough.

  158. @nymom
    No Trump was forced to respond because the Democrats and various media were starting to over-play the impact of the Corona virus in the US to make him look bad just before the 2020 election campaign season started. Also they have been trying to crash the stock market for years now just to turn the electorate against him. They appear to have succeeded in that...

    Unfortunately he had to respond and he did...

    “No Trump was forced to respond because the Democrats and various media were starting to over-play the impact of the Corona virus…”

    Actually, Trump doubled down by continuing to minimize the risk, saying the outbreak “may get a little bigger; it may not get bigger at all”…despite the opinion of public health officials that it is inevitable the virus will spread within the United States. Interesting how Presidents Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama trusted Tony Fauci to be their top adviser on infectious disease, and the nation’s most trusted communicator to the public, but to Trump, Fauci represents a threat because Fauci contradicted him in front of the nation. Now, the White House is requiring health officials to get approval before making public statements about the coronavirus…which is directly the opposite of what past presidential administrations have done.

  159. @Travis
    In the United states 70 million people are over the age of 60 today.

    If the virus spreads rapidly and 1% of the elderly succumb to coronavirus, it would result in an additional 700,000 elderly deaths this year. Last year about 2 million baby boomers passed away.

    The virus is disproportionately more lethal for old patients. So it will not be 1% for those over 70. It could be anything from 1% to 10% (or more!)

    BTW Santa Clara county found second case of infected patient (65 year old women). Its almost certain now that this is spreading at least in North California.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    AGE
    DEATH RATE*
    80+ years old
    14.8%
    70-79 years old
    8.0%
    60-69 years old
    3.6%
    50-59 years old
    1.3%
    40-49 years old
    0.4%
    30-39 years old
    0.2%
    20-29 years old
    0.2%
    10-19 years old
    0.2%
    0-9 years old
    no fatalities

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/
  160. Ok, for the first time since forever, I’m thinking Trump isn’t going to be a two termer.

    And Bernie isn’t going to be prez either.

    Now think, McFly, think, if you wanted to run one person in America who could win the election against Trump or really, anyone else, not necessarily a pol, who would you pick?

    Have my own idea, but would rather hear commenters ideas cold w/out my own. We will get to that eventually.

    • Replies: @Hail

    Now think, McFly, think, if you wanted to run one person in America who could win the election against Trump or really, anyone else, not necessarily a pol, who would you pick?
     
    Oprah?
  161. anonymous[453] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu
    " One store clerk says he saw foreigners, but doesn’t mention Koreans." - He meant Koreans though he did not want hurt their feelings.

    He meant Koreans though he did not want hurt their feelings.

    You literally just pulled that out of your rear… Your original claim was that Japanese were blaming Koreans for looting during 1995 Hanshin earthquake. Your source for this is a NYTimes article which claims one store was broken into and that the store clerk told the NYT author (Nicholas Kristof) that the perps were 2-3 foreigners (may or may not be true). The author says he isn’t talking about Koreans. He only brings up Koreans to talk about the 1923 Kanto earthquake in hindsight. He then emphasizes that Koreans weren’t being discriminated against in the 1995 Hanshin earthquake.

    He retells the clerk story in 2011; again uses “foreigners”.

    http://www.startribune.com/nicholas-kristof-japan-s-big-quake/117832113/

    This narrative comes entirely from you. You make one claim that turns out to be false. Then you double down by making stuff up out of thin air and claiming it as a fact.

    • Replies: @utu
    Are you from Korean ant-defamation league in Japan?

    Who do you think he meant by foreigners? Did he mean Koreans?

    "The Hanshin area, with the major cities of Osaka and Kobe, contains one of the largest concentrations of overseas Korean residents--a population totaling about 200,000"

    "It is therefore difficult to believe that as of February 8 only 154 Koreans are known to have been killed by the quake, including 4 Japanese women married to Koreans. The actual number of Koreans dead in the quake may ultimately be much higher than these officially confirmed numbers."

    Because the Japanese mass media seemed prompt and accurate in their quake coverage, no anti-Korean sentiment was allowed to erupt among the Japanese population. Nonetheless, on February 8, House of Councilors member Eiichi Nakamura, in his testimony before the Budget Committee, referred to a rumor that "Korean residents in Japan committed arson at the time of the Kobe quake."

    http://www.jpri.org/publications/occasionalpapers/op2.html
     
    Why everybody was so circumspect about the nationality of the foreigners who actually did some looting? After 1923 Kanto quake 6,000 Korean were massacred.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantō_Massacre
    The Kantō Massacre was a mass murder which the Japanese military, police and vigilantes committed against the Korean residents of the Kantō region, Japan, immediately after the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake.[3] The massacre is also known as the Massacre of Koreans in 1923.

    The massacre occurred over a period of three weeks starting on September 1, 1923, the day on which a massive earthquake struck the Kantō region. During this period, soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army, police and vigilantes murdered Koreans in Japan civilians and Japanese socialists who numbered an estimated at least 6,000.
     
  162. @Tex
    We'll hang the DJ.

    Just stay out of Needle Park. They're always in a panic.

    Wish I’d said that.
    Extra points for obscurity, Mr. Tex.

  163. What, no one mentions that the film, Panic in the Streets, is about an epidemic in New Orleans caused by a filthy, diseased illegal immigrant?

  164. @Muggles
    I tend to think that angry, violent mob behavior needs an emotional trigger and close proximity to something considered the "cause" or responsible for the problem.

    A "panic" is more immediate. This might be created by smoke, visible fire, rumor, gun shots or what is thought to be those, and loud noises/explosions. Something where your primitive brain decides that the "flight" response is needed, not "fight." This is nearly always purely instinctual and not even emotional. Much less rational.

    Of course there can be mixtures, but in panic you want to bug out, not attack someone.

    Most WWII civilian bombing, and much of the infrastructural bombing, did little to hurt morale. This wasn't what British Air "Admiral" Bomber Harris had predicted. As someone already mentioned, the WWI reaction differed from WWII. Plus, the first time something bad/weird occurs, it is startling. So panic might be rational. The second and subsequent times, we already know what is happening and better judge the rational reactions. Still, people vary.

    Some will run blindly for exits or perceived safety, even when it traps them. Others shut down and zone out, not moving.

    The COVID-19 type of "panic" is long term worry stuff. Buying masks, extra food, etc.

    I might add that the Dems Open Border mania seems to have vanished in the wake of Chinese virus fears. What no borders? No worry! Mr. Wong here is just visiting. They always sweat like that...

    The COVID-19 type of “panic” is long term worry stuff. Buying masks, extra food, etc.

    Yes, this is true. It’s also different because a virus is (potentially) carried and spread by the people you meet, i.e. your neighbors, which is very different from facing a purely external threat such as a hurricane or even your country’s enemy dropping bombs on your city.

    This is one reason people try very, very hard to blame outbreaks of disease on outsiders. It’s not pleasant treating your neighbors as pariahs, and them doing the same to you.

  165. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    The virus is disproportionately more lethal for old patients. So it will not be 1% for those over 70. It could be anything from 1% to 10% (or more!)

    BTW Santa Clara county found second case of infected patient (65 year old women). Its almost certain now that this is spreading at least in North California.

    AGE
    DEATH RATE*
    80+ years old
    14.8%
    70-79 years old
    8.0%
    60-69 years old
    3.6%
    50-59 years old
    1.3%
    40-49 years old
    0.4%
    30-39 years old
    0.2%
    20-29 years old
    0.2%
    10-19 years old
    0.2%
    0-9 years old
    no fatalities

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

  166. @MEH 0910
    http://www.josephmartinegan.com/2018/12/14/afi-5-lawrence-of-arabia/
    http://www.josephmartinegan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Flawrence05-754x1024.jpg

    Thank you very much, indeed. That’s quite a find! I’m in your debt.

  167. @TelfoedJohn
    It feels like Trump is heaping praise and responsibility on Pence in order to set him up for a fall and have someone to blame.

    No matter what happens it’s all the fault of Trump and us White trash deplorable proles who elected him.

  168. @Sergeant Prepper

    The book’s thesis was that humans in crowds were naturally full of “Impulsiveness, irritability, incapacity to reason, and the absence of judgement of the critical spirit…
     
    If this applies to any group in the current situation, at all, it arguably applies to the crowd in charge of the Chinese Communist Party... far as I can tell, they completely over-reacted to an over-estimated fatality rate, and came up with a cure that will probably turn out to have done much more damage than the disease. At this point, I'd say the threat to your investment portfolio is considerably bigger than the threat to your health.

    Then again, what do I know.

    Husband, sons, nephews sons in law are all madly buying up stocks.

  169. @Cagey Beast
    I can't count how many times I've seen high, middle and lowbrow people argue that bombing civilians in WW2 was righteous and efficacious. They ask: "if the Greatest Generation™ firebombed civilians in the Good War™, then who are we to fret and quibble over the bombing of Vietnamese, Iraqis, Serbs, Syrians, etc, etc"?

    The bombing of civilians during the Spanish Civil War, in 1936, caused universal outrage. So did the bombing of Chunking. Then, when German bombers accidentally lost their way one night during the Blitz and bombed civilian targets in central London. Churchill retaliated the next night, and after that, in the English speaking world, the gloves came off on the bombing of civilians.

    Over here, Curtis “Bomber” LeMay helped us get over our inhibitions a long time ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay

    AFAIK.

    • Replies: @Jack D

    Then, when German bombers accidentally lost their way one night during the Blitz and bombed civilian targets in central London.
     
    That's the ticket. It was an accident. They was lost. No true German soldier would ever kill a civilian on purpose.

    Just like von Braun - "I aimed for the stars and hit London".
  170. @Ragno
    Amazing how unvetted footage of civilizational collapse during Katrina - broadcast live as it became available, and seen by everyone with working eyeballs and a television set - magically became so many racist/rightist conspiracy theories (all thoroughly and authoritatively "debunked", of course) a few years later. Who are you going to believe? - government apparatchiks with the power to punish skeptics, or your own eyes?

    Never mind that those of us living in the area, or with family there, saw or experienced things we'd once believed impossible in first-world nations. How'd you like to have been an Australian tourist trapped in the Superdome that week? The ones who did had some pretty heavy-duty first-person witness accounts to relate, but never mind. Any reality that might reflect less than luminously on our African-American underclass became a debunked "urban legend" soon enough, and by media fiat.

    Rest assured: should the Left prevail in their wishful thinking - for plague and panic - the very last place you're going to want to be is near any concentrations of POC. Compare, please, the immediate fallout from Katrina - "debunked" or not - with the peaceful and cooperative spirit among the mostly-palefaces during the Iowa flood of 2008.

    I just went back and read some of those articles–not pretty. Katrina is easily the best and most recent example of urban societal breakdown. LA riots being another one.

  171. @anonguy
    Ok, for the first time since forever, I'm thinking Trump isn't going to be a two termer.

    And Bernie isn't going to be prez either.

    Now think, McFly, think, if you wanted to run one person in America who could win the election against Trump or really, anyone else, not necessarily a pol, who would you pick?

    Have my own idea, but would rather hear commenters ideas cold w/out my own. We will get to that eventually.

    Now think, McFly, think, if you wanted to run one person in America who could win the election against Trump or really, anyone else, not necessarily a pol, who would you pick?

    Oprah?

  172. @PiltdownMan
    The bombing of civilians during the Spanish Civil War, in 1936, caused universal outrage. So did the bombing of Chunking. Then, when German bombers accidentally lost their way one night during the Blitz and bombed civilian targets in central London. Churchill retaliated the next night, and after that, in the English speaking world, the gloves came off on the bombing of civilians.

    Over here, Curtis "Bomber" LeMay helped us get over our inhibitions a long time ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay

    AFAIK.

    Then, when German bombers accidentally lost their way one night during the Blitz and bombed civilian targets in central London.

    That’s the ticket. It was an accident. They was lost. No true German soldier would ever kill a civilian on purpose.

    Just like von Braun – “I aimed for the stars and hit London”.

    • LOL: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    By then, the Nazis were already notorious for having bombed the civilian population of Rotterdam.

    But until that point, Hitler had specifically directed that the Luftwaffe not bomb British civilians—it is said, because of some race solidarity with the Anglo-Saxons, though I would have thought that would have applied to the Dutch, too. After Churchill sent to bombers to Berlin the following night, just to show what the RAF could do, Hitler was supposedly infuriated, and the gloves came off. The bombing of Coventry was a direct result.
    , @Joe Stalin
    "Just like von Braun – “I aimed for the stars and hit London”."

    V-2 for the kiddies!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52oCwSMJdKE
  173. Anon[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sergeant Prepper

    A lot of these misconceptions go back to a once extremely influential book by a Gustave Le Bon, published in 1895. The book’s thesis was that humans in crowds were naturally full of “Impulsiveness, irritability, incapacity to reason, and the absence of judgement of the critical spirit… By mere fact he forms a part of the crowd a man descends several rungs of civilization. Isolated he may be a cultivated individual; in a crowd he is a barbarian.”
     
    Long time since I read Le Bon, but as far as I recall, he had nothing to say about disasters - nor, more specifically, about panicked crowds who form in response to disasters. Rather, he was concerned with the sort of angry mob that suddenly forms and, say, storms a palace and drags everyone wearing a powdered wig through the streets, or grab their pangas and start killing Tutsis. If you've ever seen a group of Inkatha-supporting Zulus who starts running through a township, killing anyone suspected of being an ANC supporter (or vice versa), you won't be in much doubt that Le Bon had a point. Pretty scary sight, a mob like that, and rather difficult to stop, once it starts rolling.

    Is not the correct answer “both”? Or are we talking percentages?

    What comes to mind is of course “A Tale of 2 cities”. It weaves stories of immense personal pain, innocence, love, fortitude and sheer evil against the backdrop of despair and bestiality that was the French Revolution.

    Always amazes me how saccharine Dickens can make the hairs on my neck stand up. But it’s Lent, when giving up small pleasures serves as a reminder that this life is not about pleasure. It’s about greatness.

    • Replies: @Dissident

    What comes to mind is of course “A Tale of 2 cities”. It weaves stories of immense personal pain, innocence, love, fortitude and sheer evil against the backdrop of despair and bestiality that was the French Revolution.

    Always amazes me how saccharine Dickens can make the hairs on my neck stand up.
     
    Have you read Dickens' other work of historical fiction, Barnaby Rudge? Centered around the Gordon Riots of 1780, you might especially appreciate it as a Roman Catholic.

    I also found A Tale of Two Cities, while perhaps not free of treacle, poignant nonetheless; and, if not profound, then at least instructive or illustrative of truths of the human condition. But I do not believe I am alone in rating the considerably lesser-known Rudge more highly. More captivating; more depth.

    Incidentally, the more extreme anti-Catholic comments that I have from time to time come across here at Unz have reminded me of the infamous No Popery! cries that the wonderfully talented Mil Nicholson so compellingly animates in her reading of said Dickens' work that I linked-to above.
  174. @Jack D

    Then, when German bombers accidentally lost their way one night during the Blitz and bombed civilian targets in central London.
     
    That's the ticket. It was an accident. They was lost. No true German soldier would ever kill a civilian on purpose.

    Just like von Braun - "I aimed for the stars and hit London".

    By then, the Nazis were already notorious for having bombed the civilian population of Rotterdam.

    But until that point, Hitler had specifically directed that the Luftwaffe not bomb British civilians—it is said, because of some race solidarity with the Anglo-Saxons, though I would have thought that would have applied to the Dutch, too. After Churchill sent to bombers to Berlin the following night, just to show what the RAF could do, Hitler was supposedly infuriated, and the gloves came off. The bombing of Coventry was a direct result.

  175. @obwandiyag
    Rand. Hardehar. Really? Rand. Hardehar.

    Yes. Aside from the Deep State/Dr. Strangelove reputation which it entirely deserves, RAND actually was a pathbreaking think tank, with fundamental contributions in applied mathematics in the area of systems analysis, operations research and economic theory.

    The quality of research output from RAND in the late 1940s and 1950s is greatly responsible for the existence of the entire Washington DC beltway consulting industry—that crowd got their start and rode off the reflected glow of RAND’s reputation as deep thinkers.

    Albeit, RANDs early output was a couple of orders of magnitude of higher quality.

  176. @Jack D

    Last year about 2 million baby boomers passed away.
     
    Where did you get this number from? The total # of deaths last year in the US was around 2.8 million and the baby boomers account for the cohort that was between age 55 and 74 (with average life expectancy being around 78 ). Were more than 2 out of 3 deaths in this group? I doubt it.

    Remember that those who were born (or even conceived) before the end of the war are NOT boomers. Sanders, Biden, etc. - NOT boomers. Trump barely qualifies.

    Where did you get this number from? The total # of deaths last year in the US was around 2.8 million and the baby boomers account for the cohort that was between age 55 and 74 (with average life expectancy being around 78 ). Were more than 2 out of 3 deaths in this group? I doubt it.

    You are correct.

    Just doing some back of the envelope on the SSA actuarial tables–which i was looking at the other day, you’ll only come up with maybe 1 million boomer deaths:
    Let’s call 56-74 boomers.
    Here’s the SSA actualial table (2016, but i doubt the rates have changed much).
    https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html

    The death rate is about 0.8% and is ticking up at <.1% a year–hitting 1% at 58–until about 65, but then really starts climbing above 70, so at a Trumpian, lead boomer, 74 it is 3.3%. Boomers are back loaded–the peak in 1957. So figure the 1.5% at 65 isn't wildly off for the boomers in total. 72 million folks dying at 1.5%–call it a million.

    There are still something like 22-23m pre-boomer (75 and up) folks doddering around. And clearly they are doing the serious dying.

    Searching around for the CDC info:
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_09-508.pdf

    Go to page 23 and Table 2 has deaths per age cohort. The four boomer 5 year cohorts–55-74–account for about 900K, the pre-boomer 75+ crew over 1.5 million.

    55–59. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 162,098
    60–64 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 209,908
    65–69. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 248,087
    70–74 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 283,523

    75–79. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 307,498
    80–84. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 350,261
    85 and over . . . . . . . . . . . 878,035

    The so very eagerly anticipated boomercaust … started, but not yet fully underway.

  177. @anonymous
    He meant Koreans though he did not want hurt their feelings.

    You literally just pulled that out of your rear... Your original claim was that Japanese were blaming Koreans for looting during 1995 Hanshin earthquake. Your source for this is a NYTimes article which claims one store was broken into and that the store clerk told the NYT author (Nicholas Kristof) that the perps were 2-3 foreigners (may or may not be true). The author says he isn't talking about Koreans. He only brings up Koreans to talk about the 1923 Kanto earthquake in hindsight. He then emphasizes that Koreans weren't being discriminated against in the 1995 Hanshin earthquake.

    He retells the clerk story in 2011; again uses "foreigners".

    http://www.startribune.com/nicholas-kristof-japan-s-big-quake/117832113/

    This narrative comes entirely from you. You make one claim that turns out to be false. Then you double down by making stuff up out of thin air and claiming it as a fact.

    Are you from Korean ant-defamation league in Japan?

    Who do you think he meant by foreigners? Did he mean Koreans?

    “The Hanshin area, with the major cities of Osaka and Kobe, contains one of the largest concentrations of overseas Korean residents–a population totaling about 200,000”

    “It is therefore difficult to believe that as of February 8 only 154 Koreans are known to have been killed by the quake, including 4 Japanese women married to Koreans. The actual number of Koreans dead in the quake may ultimately be much higher than these officially confirmed numbers.”

    Because the Japanese mass media seemed prompt and accurate in their quake coverage, no anti-Korean sentiment was allowed to erupt among the Japanese population. Nonetheless, on February 8, House of Councilors member Eiichi Nakamura, in his testimony before the Budget Committee, referred to a rumor that “Korean residents in Japan committed arson at the time of the Kobe quake.”

    http://www.jpri.org/publications/occasionalpapers/op2.html

    Why everybody was so circumspect about the nationality of the foreigners who actually did some looting? After 1923 Kanto quake 6,000 Korean were massacred.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantō_Massacre
    The Kantō Massacre was a mass murder which the Japanese military, police and vigilantes committed against the Korean residents of the Kantō region, Japan, immediately after the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake.[3] The massacre is also known as the Massacre of Koreans in 1923.

    The massacre occurred over a period of three weeks starting on September 1, 1923, the day on which a massive earthquake struck the Kantō region. During this period, soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army, police and vigilantes murdered Koreans in Japan civilians and Japanese socialists who numbered an estimated at least 6,000.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Are you from Korean ant-defamation league in Japan?

    No? Are you? Your NYT columnist was only able to verify one tiny instance of looting in a disaster area where a few million people were living. With such scant evidence, you can jump to whatever conclusion floats your boat, utu, which is what you seem to be doing anyway for some reason.
  178. @kikz
    veteran of Camille/'69 and Frederic/'79. i've seen both, mostly the good aspects, i was lucky to live in a close knit neighborhood of long time residents, all of whom looked out for and fed ea/other, as our area did w/o power for nearly 3mos following Frederic. one example as to just how thin the veneer of civilization can actually be. traveling 20mi to another city's ice house, waiting in line for hours, and witnessing two grown White men come to near gun play over a 20lb block of ice. i don't know the particulars, but neither were happy, and quickly subdued by logic/verbal argument from w/in the crowd. civility returned.

    You and my Dad may be from the same city. He also described “ice riots” after Frederic, and ice trucks getting hijacked on their way to deliver to his neighborhood!

    I went through Katrina as a teenager but was some distance from the worst of it. Minor disruptions- similar to that of other Hurricanes. I was, however, in a really bad natural disaster of a different kind and I can assure you that most people panic. I had to stop my roommate from going berserk and it was a bit of a post-apocalyptic free for all for 24 hours afterwards. I also had no food and little water (boil order) for 18 hours and that was enough to give me a killer headache.

    I don’t play around with prepping.

  179. @Stebbing Heuer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGvW_9rLfc8

    “because the music they play, it says nothing to me about my life…” Moz

  180. @Tiny Duck
    Um you do know dont you that whites are notorious for rioting and mayhem at the slightest provocation.

    See the Tulsa massacre

    Might want to come up w/a more recent white on black atrocity:

    A 2001 state commission examination of events was able to confirm 39 dead, 26 black and 13 white, based on contemporary autopsy reports, death certificates and other records

    Date May 31 – June 1, 1921

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

  181. @fish

    If it comes down to quarantines and rationing, you’ll see for yourselves the community spirit and self sacrifice of the American negro.
     
    Smoggins......that was "duck" like in its magnificence!

    If all he said ever really happened in actual reality there would be no unz.com.

  182. @Jack D

    Then, when German bombers accidentally lost their way one night during the Blitz and bombed civilian targets in central London.
     
    That's the ticket. It was an accident. They was lost. No true German soldier would ever kill a civilian on purpose.

    Just like von Braun - "I aimed for the stars and hit London".

    “Just like von Braun – “I aimed for the stars and hit London”.”

    V-2 for the kiddies!

  183. anonymous[112] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu
    Are you from Korean ant-defamation league in Japan?

    Who do you think he meant by foreigners? Did he mean Koreans?

    "The Hanshin area, with the major cities of Osaka and Kobe, contains one of the largest concentrations of overseas Korean residents--a population totaling about 200,000"

    "It is therefore difficult to believe that as of February 8 only 154 Koreans are known to have been killed by the quake, including 4 Japanese women married to Koreans. The actual number of Koreans dead in the quake may ultimately be much higher than these officially confirmed numbers."

    Because the Japanese mass media seemed prompt and accurate in their quake coverage, no anti-Korean sentiment was allowed to erupt among the Japanese population. Nonetheless, on February 8, House of Councilors member Eiichi Nakamura, in his testimony before the Budget Committee, referred to a rumor that "Korean residents in Japan committed arson at the time of the Kobe quake."

    http://www.jpri.org/publications/occasionalpapers/op2.html
     
    Why everybody was so circumspect about the nationality of the foreigners who actually did some looting? After 1923 Kanto quake 6,000 Korean were massacred.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantō_Massacre
    The Kantō Massacre was a mass murder which the Japanese military, police and vigilantes committed against the Korean residents of the Kantō region, Japan, immediately after the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake.[3] The massacre is also known as the Massacre of Koreans in 1923.

    The massacre occurred over a period of three weeks starting on September 1, 1923, the day on which a massive earthquake struck the Kantō region. During this period, soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army, police and vigilantes murdered Koreans in Japan civilians and Japanese socialists who numbered an estimated at least 6,000.
     

    Are you from Korean ant-defamation league in Japan?

    No? Are you? Your NYT columnist was only able to verify one tiny instance of looting in a disaster area where a few million people were living. With such scant evidence, you can jump to whatever conclusion floats your boat, utu, which is what you seem to be doing anyway for some reason.

  184. @utu
    "Kobe earthquake" - There was looting though Japanese insisted the looting was done by Koreans because Japanese do not loot.

    The Japanese are like that. I’ve known people who lived there in Japan. They say nobody steals. Two girls I knew in college had hitchhiked all over Japan without trouble. I’m sure it has changed some with Western influence, but they are very proud about their culture.

  185. @J.Ross
    I believe this is an error misinterpreting the (wise but now abandoned) segregation of adult subjects. It's as Jack said, things were buried, but people understood them -- transmuting an unfilmable rape to a filmable flogging isn't so different from the camera panning from James Bond's bed up to a ceiling fan -- and there are passages in some books which are almost modern. The difference is people really were not surrounded by porn.

    It’s as Jack said, things were buried, but people understood them — […]
    […]
    The difference is people really were not surrounded by porn.

    There’s a whole question in this vein that’s been raised concerning some of Charles Dickens’ most famous works. Perhaps the most salient example is the character Master Charlie Bates (often referred-to simply as Master Bates) in Oliver Twist. Was the double entendre that most likely few modern readers can’t help but to notice intentional on the part of Dickens?

    [MORE]

    And whether or not it was, how likely was the typical reader of Dickens in the Victorian England of his day to make the association with (or even be familiar with) the proper term for what they called self-abuse*?

    I’ve also seen it claimed that Shakespeare could actually be quite raunchy; one just has to be familiar with what were the less respectable, perhaps slang meanings for many of the words he used.

    *Incidentally, Kevin Michael Grace has suggested that “racism” in the present era has become much like “self-abuse” in Victorian England: Something that is blamed for just about every imaginable ill.

  186. @Anon
    Is not the correct answer “both”? Or are we talking percentages?

    What comes to mind is of course “A Tale of 2 cities”. It weaves stories of immense personal pain, innocence, love, fortitude and sheer evil against the backdrop of despair and bestiality that was the French Revolution.

    Always amazes me how saccharine Dickens can make the hairs on my neck stand up. But it’s Lent, when giving up small pleasures serves as a reminder that this life is not about pleasure. It’s about greatness.

    What comes to mind is of course “A Tale of 2 cities”. It weaves stories of immense personal pain, innocence, love, fortitude and sheer evil against the backdrop of despair and bestiality that was the French Revolution.

    Always amazes me how saccharine Dickens can make the hairs on my neck stand up.

    Have you read Dickens’ other work of historical fiction, Barnaby Rudge? Centered around the Gordon Riots of 1780, you might especially appreciate it as a Roman Catholic.

    [MORE]

    I also found A Tale of Two Cities, while perhaps not free of treacle, poignant nonetheless; and, if not profound, then at least instructive or illustrative of truths of the human condition. But I do not believe I am alone in rating the considerably lesser-known Rudge more highly. More captivating; more depth.

    Incidentally, the more extreme anti-Catholic comments that I have from time to time come across here at Unz have reminded me of the infamous No Popery! cries that the wonderfully talented Mil Nicholson so compellingly animates in her reading of said Dickens’ work that I linked-to above.

  187. @Mr. Anon

    But how often does that really happen?
     
    Not that often. But Hollywood likes to stoke that meme. If you are a baby-boomer, you probably saw this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5pzSwYaxLg

    One could almost wonder what agenda exactly is behind it.

    Steve Sailer’s post also reminded me of “The Monsters are Due On Maple Street.”

  188. @Anonymous
    The 1939 Japanese bombing of Chungking (as it was then romanized) did seem to provoke some panic among Chinese residents:

    https://i.imgur.com/2RLNZiD.png

    While white residents seem to have held more to the "Keep calm and carry on" ethos:

    https://i.imgur.com/5EwfBJm.png

    Stephen Hosmer's RAND study, Psychological Effects of U.S. Air Operations in Four Wars, notes, "Air attacks on strategic targets in World War II generally fell short of producing the psychological results their planners hoped for. This was particularly true of Germany, where the Allied bombing of cities failed to deny labor to German industry. However, the psychological effects of the Allied bombing did speed Japan's decision to surrender and helped shape Italy's decision to seek a peace accord."

    Imagine a world where white people could just board plane and escape to somewhere safe.

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