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Ötzi the Iceman
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Ötzi the Iceman looks like a cross between Christoph Waltz and Nick Nolte.

But wasn’t he pre-Yamnaya/Aryan invasion of Europe?

Wouldn’t he look more Sardinian, like Bruno Kirby?

 
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  1. So, we need to bring back some Copper Age Italians to deal with the “refugee” crisis?

    • Replies: @pyrrhus
  2. Garlic says:

    I think he looks a bit like Steve Sailer.

    I don’t know how to embed pictures, but if someone who does know were to embed the picture of Otzi from the article and the picture of Steve from his last fundraising post, you might see what I mean.

    • Replies: @Andrew
  3. Daniel H says:

    If I would have 100 lives to live I would trade it for the one of Otzi’s.

    • Replies: @donut
  4. Anonymous[345] • Disclaimer says:

    Yes, the deep-frozen chap was more or less pure EEF, or Early European Farmer, his kind, it is thought, hailing originally from the Anatolian peninsula.

    However, we must remember that *all* extant (real) Europeans are a three way split between the so called Yamanya, ‘Western Hunter Gatherers’ and the EEF, in varying proportions.

    It is fair to say that Oetzi is a genetic relative of all living Europeans.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  5. Why not Franco Columbu, the Sardinian Samson and Mr. Olympia?

    Otzi had more Neanderthal ancestry than modern Sardinians, which should make him appear more sturdy than Kirby. Not enough to increase his musculature to the level that good 1970s steroids produced in Columbu, but it seems closer.

    Columbu was Arnold’s successor, and appeared in a few films with him, including the role of a “Pictish Scout” in Conan. If I could embed the pics from him in that role it seems perfect.

    • Replies: @Steve in Greensboro
  6. Old Prude says:

    Kris Kristfferson

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
  7. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:

    Apparently, since his untimely death in the 1960s, the mortal remains of Walt Disney have been entombed in liquid nitrogen in a secret so called ‘cryogenic’ facility in Arizona – an enormous stock market invested bequest has ensured that Disney’s wish is kept in perpetuity.

    What will the people of the car future make it the creator of Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck?

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  8. Anonymous[398] • Disclaimer says:

    Why is it every time they find a cavedude they be findin’ some ol’ cracka dude? Why can’t they find some fine Brazilian girl with a huge booty like Miss BumBum and be showin’ us that? Y’all gonna go and make up all this story from some old rock and a stick y’all find in the dirt, at least show us some booty.

    • LOL: jim jones
    • Replies: @lhtness
  9. songbird says:

    Ötzi and Nick Nolte both lived a hard life. That is where the similarity comes from. Both made some bad decisions. Nolte to take drugs, and Ötzi the Iceman to cross that mountain.

  10. @william munny

    Is this Columbu’s “Pictish Scout”?

    • Replies: @william munny
  11. Lookalike says:

    Kris Kristofferson

    • Replies: @Hunsdon
    , @Bugg
  12. Bruno Kirby has a soft, overfed look that was almost certainly unknown among grown men in Europe around 3000 BC. Maybe you would have found men like that in the royal court in Babylon.

    Check out Sardinian-American Chris Meloni, he kind of looks like Ötzi.

    I do agree though that Ötzi looks shockingly “Austrian” to me. There is definitely an Alpine phenotype that seems to have survived 5 millennia.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  13. dearieme says:

    I’m afraid I tend to laugh at facial reconstructions. I’ve never seen a newspaper carry a photo of a reconstruction compared to an independent photo of the person reconstructed. I don’t see how a reconstructor can possibly master his art without absorbing lots and lots of such comparisons. And even if he did master it with modern people local to him, what’s to say it will work for a geezer millennia earlier?

    Thin, wrinkled, and hairy – reasonable guess. Eye colour and skin tone – maybe a guess based his DNA and on modern Sardinians. Overall – I’ve seen the like among the homeless. So presumably has the reconstructor.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  14. Armenian or western Iranian, or the same, through Anatolia. Any which way, the earliest Caucasians.
    You went straight for Sardinian?

  15. He’s missing his stupid MAGA red hat. I’m glad he’s dead. Notice stupid whites were falling into snow banks even back then, even as POC like Africans, Jews and Chinese were dominating the globe.

    • Replies: @36 ulster
    , @Pontius
    , @ChrisZ
  16. Pheasant says:

    There were 3 ancient Europeans groups. Hunter gatherers, ancient farmers (most closely related to todays sardinians) and invasive cattle raising itinerants (indo-europeans, aryans). The iceman would have been an old European ie a hunter gatherer and would have indeed looked rugged and caveman looking.

    • Replies: @Olorin
  17. Svigor says:

    Schools bomb hoaxes: Teenager jailed for nationwide threats

    At least this one didn’t do it all as a false-flag hate campaign.

  18. Dr. X says:

    Ötzi the Iceman looks like a cross between Christoph Waltz and Nick Nolte.

    Actually, he looks like a member of the local Hell’s Angels chapter. Are you sure they didn’t have Harleys 5,300 years ago?

  19. Beckow says:

    Otzi’s colors are artistic projections, he was probably swarthier. His DNA was G from Caucasus – they were migrating goat herders, not necessarily farmers. He also lived high up in the mountain, it was hard to farm there 5-6,000 years ago. That type survived in the Alpine valleys until today – there is a G cluster, the same short-limb, stocky, sturdy type with plenty of melanin and body hair.

    The females of the species tend to be un-mateable: small, pear-shaped, goat-faced. That has limited their population and waves of outsiders have diluted Otzi’s stock. But they know their mushrooms.

    Otzi was also almost certainly killed by invading tribes, possibly even Indo-Europeans, or Anatolian farmers. They were clearing the land of the previous goat-sheep herding hunters. He initially escaped and they tracked him down. The mountain herders tended to steal harvests and were a general nuisance.

    • Replies: @Hail
    , @Buffalo Joe
    , @dr kill
  20. Why isn’t any of these ice men bald or balding?

    This Mr. Otzi bastard has a proceeding hairline.

    How about an ice man who is bald like George Kennan, who was brought up recently on Unz Review?

    George Kennan thought the ice people ought to sequester or isolate the sun people before they overran the ice people’s land.

    The “Northern Mind” indeed!

  21. First off, let’s not go assuming the gender of a particular individual who died before he had the opportunity to fully explore it, “iceman” is not the preferred nomenclature, “iceperson” please.

    Secondly, I’d expect Sardinians to be be more gracile these days. 5k years is a long time for selection to work. Sardinians are probably more genotypically neotonized than EEFs, if only from a few thousands years of selection for female looks.

  22. Hail says: • Website

    John Hawks on Otzi:

    If we took as a baseline that Europeans have an average of 3.5 percent Neandertal, Ötzi would have around 5.5 percent…He has substantially greater sharing with Neandertals than any other recent person we have ever examined.

    • Replies: @backup
  23. OFF TOPIC FROM ICEMAN OTZI

    ICEMAN OTZI HAD A BOW AND ARROW POLICY — WE HAVE MONETARY POLICY

    The following is a short explanation of why European Christendom and European Christian civilization would be best served by raising the federal funds rate to at least 6 percent, and possibly to 20 percent:

    Raising the federal funds rate to 6 percent would implode the asset bubbles in stocks, bonds and real estate, thereby wiping out most of the upper middle class and the plutocrats and the baby boomers.

    The plutocrats and globalizers have used asset bubbles to buy off certain generational cohorts in order to pour nation-wrecking mass immigration into the United States. Greedy scum didn’t say nothing about nation-wrecking mass immigration because of all the ill-gotten gains they got from the various asset bubbles cooked up by the Fed.

    To once again bring about AFFORDABLE FAMILY FORMATION for young White Core Americans of European Christian ancestry it will be necessary to pop all the asset bubbles created by the privately-controlled Federal Reserve Bank.

    Debt repudiations and asset bubbles popping will provide the political atmosphere conducive to mass deportations of foreigners.

    40 or 50 million foreigners and their spawn will be deported and young White Core Americans will be in a golden age of AFFORDABLE FAMILY FORMATION.

    The Pewitt plan calls for a 20 percent rise in federal funds rate, that might be too extreme, although Volcker got the federal funds rate to about 20 percent in 1981.

    The stock market is about to implode at 2 percent federal funds rate, can you imagine 20 percent? Heaven on earth it will be for the young people saddled with debt from the greedy geezers born before 1965!

    • Agree: Futurethirdworlder
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  24. I think I last saw Otzi panhandling downtown.

    • LOL: Lot
    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
  25. Lot says:

    Many pics of Sardinians here in traditional clothing. Pretty cool photo essay, look at all the pages.

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/sardinian_people/sardinian-traditional-clothing-t30-s60.html

    I have only met one IRL, he was very dark with a thin frame. The ones in these pics look kinda Polish with lighter features, chubby faces, and round heads.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Anonymous
    , @Anon
  26. My guess is that if you throw Bruno Kirby in the Alpine wilderness and he manages to survive for one year, the resemblance to his long-dead ancestor will become apparent.

  27. So you really believe in that drawing?

    • Replies: @Pontius
  28. D. K. says:

    Bruno Kirby has been dead already for a dozen years:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Kirby

    His father, however, is still alive, at 90 years of age:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Kirby_(actor)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  29. Totally off-topic, but: the huge popularity of the prestige TV show Mad Men seems like a major point of evidence for Ross Douthat’s much reviled recent pro-WASP column. Of course, nominally Mad Men is anti-WASP: it’s totally about how racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, hateful, hate-filled, et cetera, the pre-Woodstock WASP dominated America was, and definitely not about the stylish fashions, stable careers, strong families, classy casual drinking and clear gender norms of the era. I mean, what’s more fun to watch on television than an endless sequence of depressing bigotry?

    • Replies: @Hail
  30. ‘Ötzi the Iceman looks like a cross between Christoph Waltz and Nick Nolte.

    But wasn’t he pre-Yamnaya/Aryan invasion of Europe?

    Wouldn’t he look more Sardinian, like Bruno Kirby?’

    I’d vote for small and dark.

    For what it’s worth, it’s been claimed that the so-called ‘black Irish’ that appear every now and then represent the genes of the survivors of the pre-celtic population showing up.

    Of course I’m not implying they’re ‘black’ in anything like the modern sense — just darker than your basic Celtic/Germanic/Slavic type.

    • Replies: @dr kill
  31. J1234 says:

    The real Otzi looks like he was a smoker. From Kentucky, maybe.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  32. Steven L. says:

    You can see a lot of Oetzis among the drunks and tramps bumming cigarettes in the park near the Bolzano/Bozen Banhof. Oetzis every last one of ’em.

  33. OP says:

    I think that Steve likes to troll S. Euros whenever he can. 😉 Otzi has Bruno’s eyes and shape of face, but lived a hard life. He suffered from rheumatism and lime disease when he was murdered while hiking up a mountain. (!) Obviously, those times produced a different kind of man.

    Franco Columbo as an older man of Ortiz’s age does resemble him, and a lean Bruno definitely shows some resemblance as well.

    Not an exact approximation, but one can definitely see how they are all members of the same race. FWIW, I belong to the same maternal haplogroup family (K), so I see him as an ancestor of sorts.

  34. Hey, Steve. I have been following your blog for quite a while. You have been claiming that Indian Brahmins – in particular, the South Indian variety – have a very high IQ, in 110-120 range or so. I was able to find a study on Indian Tamil Brahmins which measured their IQ using Raven’s Standard Progressive Matrices. I don’t know how to convert the raw RSPM scores into IQ as I do not have access to norms that let us do so (I am not a psychometrician).I found out British norms for the 1992 Raven’s IQ test, and that suggests that Tamil Brahmins, who got a raw RSPM score of 43, stand below 50 percentile I.e they have an IQ below 100. Although I am not sure because of my lack of knowledge of psychometrics. Perhaps you could look at the study and convert these raw scores into a proper deviation IQ range. The document for the said study is available on Researchgate – here on this link and let us know the truth. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nigesh_Kalorath/publication/275770741_Cultural_Practices_and_Well-being_among_Tamil_Brahmins/links/59439c630f7e9b6910ede2a4/Cultural-Practices-and-Well-being-among-Tamil-Brahmins

    • Replies: @BB753
    , @Twinkie
    , @AnotherDad
  35. backup says:
    @Hail

    This has been refuted in later papers.

    • Replies: @Hail
  36. Anonym says:

    A bit like Viggo with some heavy face makeup. Queue whoever it is that Viggo is not that tall in real life. Lol

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
  37. 36 ulster says:
    @Tiny Duck.

    Tiny Duck, the (meta) gift that keeps on (meta) giving.

  38. Harpo says:

    A dead ringer for Wim Hof.

  39. BB753 says:
    @Nordic_racist

    This is a job for Rec1Man, our resident Tamil Brahman übermensch!

  40. I was thinking a latter day Jeff Bridges.

  41. @Lot

    ‘Many pics of Sardinians here in traditional clothing. Pretty cool photo essay, look at all the pages.

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/sardinian_people/sardinian-traditional-clothing-t30-s60.html …’

    Well…they’d better not try wearing those head scarves in a Christian country. That’s all I have to say.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
  42. @Charles Pewitt

    A 20 percentage point rise in the Feral Funds Rate, not 20% – that would be < 1/2 of a percentage point, Charles. If you're going to go off topic and write about something much more interesting to me than some reconstructed picture of some damn Ice Man, then please be clear on the math.*

    Otherwise, pretty AGREED, minus the debt repudiation – to whom, I might ask, Charles?

    .

    * OK, at least you don’t write all changes backwards like the Wall Street Journal: “The federal funds rate went up 50 basis points today, up to 2.75% from 2.25%, after instructions from Mr. Yellen.” I’m not kidding, that’s the way they always write changes, “TO” and then “FROM”, ass backwards!

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
  43. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    Good stuff

  44. Hail says: • Website
    @backup

    Thanks. But do you refer to the percentages proposed, or to the assertion itself that Otzi “has substantially greater sharing with Neandertals than any other recent person we have ever examined”? Do you have a link to the later paper(s) handy?

    FWIW, Otzi’s wiki page has only one hit for text string “Neander-“, and that is to the John Hawks claim; if the claim is false, someone needs to do some wiki-updating.We owe as much to the most famous Neolithic individual we have.

  45. Hail says: • Website
    @Beckow

    Otzi was also almost certainly killed by invading tribes, possibly even Indo-Europeans, or Anatolian farmers

    Isn’t 3300 BC a little early for Indo-Europeans in the Alps?

    • Replies: @Beckow
  46. TWS says:

    Guess we got some things wrong. Maybe their black cheddar man is wrong too

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  47. Hail says: • Website
    @Stolen Valor Detective

    Ross Douthat’s much reviled recent pro-WASP column

    To boomerang off your off-topic post: The “Anglo-Saxon” part of “WASP” brought to mind the Anglo-Saxon language, ancestor of English. Which leads me to ask:

    What was Otzi’s language?

    As far as I’d guess, something in the Vasconic family is the best bet (of which, Basque is the sole present-day survivor). Anyone have any thoughts?

    • Replies: @Richard S
    , @Andrew
  48. Anonymous[408] • Disclaimer says:

    OT: From the NYT, “I’m a Democrat and a Feminist. And I Support Betsy DeVos’s Title IX Reforms.”

    Take a wild guess as to what would cause such an abrupt departure from the party line…

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/04/opinion/-title-ix-devos-democrat-feminist.html

    The Office of Civil Rights does not collect data on race in Title IX cases, but the little we know is disturbing: An analysis of assault accusations at Colgate, for example, found that while only 4.2 percent of the college’s students were black in the 2012-13 school year, 50 percent of the sexual-violation accusations reported to the school were against black students, and blacks made up 40 percent of the students who went through the formal disciplinary process.

  49. Pontius says:

    My friend took great delight in reading Otzi was suffering from the early stages of heart disease.

    Eat drink and be merry!

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  50. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @dearieme

    I’m afraid I tend to laugh at facial reconstructions.

    Spot on! There does not seem to be any evidence that facial reconstruction actually does approximate visually identifiable traits. It’s like the people who deal with it cannot be bothered with the most basic scientific evidence. A proper study would be absolutely trivial to do but the practitioners seem to prefer the BS output as default.

  51. Pontius says:
    @Tiny Duck.

    He died of an arrow wound dipshit. Probably by someone who held his bow sideways.

  52. dr kill says:
    @Colin Wright

    I thought Black Irish were descended from Spanish Armada sailors wrecked in the storm.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  53. @Beckow

    Beck, your comment is like an episode of the TV series “The First 48 hours.” We just need to find some tape from a surveillance camera.

  54. dr kill says:
    @Beckow

    In fact, I’m willing to bet that Otzi is Sardinian for Seth Rich. And he was just on his way home from a fun night out.

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
  55. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    The ones in these pics look kinda Polish with lighter features, chubby faces, and round heads.

    Close. My take was that, overall, they look very much like Ukrainians (the ones to the South, not the West).

  56. @TWS

    Maybe their black cheddar man is wrong too.

    Then there was that guy they found in the cave in the Alps of Switzerland, having died 6,000 years ago from a saber-toothed tiger attack. What’d they call him again … Swiss-Cheese man?

  57. Hunsdon says:
    @Lookalike

    In Corpus Christi, TX, back in the day, KK was the babysitter for my debate coach in high school. (My brush with greatness, albeit at a remove.)

  58. Hunsdon says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    My favorite hippie graduated Ranger school.

    • Replies: @Olorin
  59. Twinkie says:
    @Anonymous

    However, we must remember that *all* extant (real) Europeans are a three way split between the so called Yamanya, ‘Western Hunter Gatherers’ and the EEF, in varying proportions.

    Plus a small Siberian contribution from later, which many Eastern and Northern Europeans carry via Finnic admixture.

    • Replies: @Nawyr
  60. Twinkie says:
    @J1234

    That ear needs medical attention. “What’s that you’re saying?”

    • Replies: @J1234
  61. Twinkie says:
    @Nordic_racist

    Hey, Steve. I have been following your blog for quite a while. You have been claiming that Indian Brahmins – in particular, the South Indian variety – have a very high IQ, in 110-120 range or so.

    Mr. Sailer has long claimed that South Asians in America are the most likely to vote Republican, because they are, in his words, “loquacious.” I don’t think he’s ever disavowed that opinion, even though we know now that Indians have the lowest assimilation index among major Asian immigrants, the lowest intermarriage rates, and the highest rate of support for the Democratic Party among, again, the major Asian immigrant groups.

    • Replies: @Lot
  62. Bugg says:
    @Lookalike

    That’s who I thought of, though Otzi is probably too wise to agree to appear in a piece of crap like “Heaven’s Gate”.

    • Replies: @flyingtiger
  63. @Colin Wright

    Sardinia is Christian…it’s part of Italy.

    Their lace scarves just look a lot like a more elaborate version of a mantilla. Now the embroidered quilt things that sometimes go over them are pretty unusual though.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  64. Lot says:
    @Twinkie

    I don’t recall Steve ever saying Indians were more GOP than other Asian groups, or than southern Brahmins have 110+ IQs. Both statements are false.

    Vietnamese and Koreans are the most GOP East Asian groups (in that order) due to experience with communism and high rates of Christianity. Vietnamese also were influenced by settling in Texas and OC in the 70s, which were both very GOP at the time.

    The only South Asian group that seems likely to have 100+ IQs are Parsis, and they are less than 0.1% of India’s population and on their way to extinction.

    Brahmins are often dirt poor despite their technically high caste, and I doubt childhood vegetarianism helps with IQ much. Relatedly, I am also dubious about claims to high Igbo IQ. High for Nigeria maybe, but still likely under 100.

    Maybe we could recenter the IQ standard away from white English/Americans=100 to make other groups feel better, like was done with the SAT.

    • Replies: @Hail
    , @Twinkie
    , @Bliss
  65. Nawyr says:
    @Twinkie

    That’s patently incorrect as I have shown you before.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  66. Not Raul says:

    To me, Ötzi the Iceman looks like a cross between Kris Kristofferson and Peter Stormare, both of Scandinavian ancestry (hence a high percentage of EEMH ancestry). But, I’m probably biased by what I’ve already read about the man.

  67. ChrisZ says:
    @Tiny Duck.

    This would have been the greatest Tiny Duck troll-comment ever. But the period at the end of the name means that this is only the pseudo-Duck, of fairly recent vintage, who can spell and write grammatically.

    • Troll: Tiny Duck.
  68. @dr kill

    ‘I thought Black Irish were descended from Spanish Armada sailors wrecked in the storm.’

    That’s the popular explanation for the phenomenon.

    Not that what I was reading was the irrefutable truth, to stand for all time, but the more academically respectable explanation is that it’s pre-Celtic genes poking through. The small, dark-complected pop up elsewhere in the British Isles as well.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @dearieme
    , @Anon
  69. Hail says: • Website
    @Lot

    Vietnamese and Koreans are the most GOP East Asian groups (in that order)

    There was a big poll Clinton-vs.-Trump poll of Asians in the USA found Trump support the very lowest IIRC among Koreans, of all East Asian groups. Cannot remember on Vietnamese. Filipinos most pro-Trump. Steve may have blogged this poll at the time.

    So if what you say was once true, it may have broken down in the Trump era, with former “GOP East Asians” lining up along racial lines and behind the D Party.

    __________

    I found the poll (n= 2,238 Asian Americans, 305 Native Hawaiian and Pac. Islanders).

    It was released in early October 2016 and reflects polling by the National Asian American Survey in August and September. I call your attention to Table 6, p.18 of the PDF. It gives presidential vote choice for 2016 by ethnic-nationality. Poll choices: Clinton, Trump, Other, Don’t Know, Refused.

    I’ll reproduce the findings here for easy reference, omitting all but Clinton-Trump:

    [Asian Group in the USA]: Clinton-Trump (registered voters only)
    Total Asian: 55-14
    Asian Indian: 67-7
    Cambodian: 47-16
    Chinese: 52-11
    Filipino: 54-25 (e.g., Cesar Sayoc)
    Hmong: 61-7
    Japanese: 54-20
    Korean: 63-10
    Vietnamese: 41-16
    Pacific Islander: 37-15

    (Interestingly, no foreign born vs. U.S.-born gap at all.)

    Note: The CNN exit poll gives a Clinton-Trump 65-27 among Asians in Nov. ’16, a Trump vote deficit from Asians of 24:10. The poll I cite above’s margin against Trump was 39:10 but with lots of those surveyed (31% of polled) not supporting either one. Implied, then, is that Asians with the right to vote in U.S. elections who were “don’t know,” “other,” or “refuse” in the survey broke somewhat for Trump.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @Bliss
  70. JMcG says:
    @Colin Wright

    Sorry if I’m being a bore on this subject, but the Irish term for a black haired man is “fear dubh” which translates as black man. The Irish term for an actual black man is “fear gorm” which translates as blue man. I think that’s where the term “Black Irish” comes from.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
  71. @Buffalo Joe

    Five thousand years in a glacier, a man deserves a drunk.

  72. @JMcG

    So “Black Irish” refers to a blue African?

  73. @Pontius

    “Heart disease” starts in childhood.
    https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/72/5/1307s/4730131

    Or maybe Otzi was never going to get a blockage at all…

  74. @Hail

    For lots of these groups, my theory is that on this particular election, because immigration was THE BIG ISSUE, lots of these people simply voted to make sure their mother-in-laws will still be able to come and take care of the kids (… and maybe even settle down and collect SS and use medicare), and other concerns like this.

    The people who vote like this are not assimilated, of course, by definition, as they care about their own personal benefit in regards to immigration policy over the benefit of the country.

    Hail, I wonder how this poll would compare to one of just generic R vs. D.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Hail
  75. Twinkie says:
    @Nawyr

    That’s patently incorrect as I have shown you before.

    I trust Razib Khan more – esp. on population genetics – than I trust you.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/06/17/the-origin-of-the-finnic-peoples/

    • Replies: @Nawyr
  76. Twinkie says:
    @Lot

    I don’t recall Steve ever saying Indians were more GOP than other Asian groups

    I don’t recall the exact verbiage, but he used to write about how Indians are more loquacious, extroverted, intellectually curious, etc. implying that they were more like whites than East Asians and would be voting Republican, but for minority setasides they get as “Asians.”

    He even used to argue that they hated whites less than East Asians, because the keep their women in line unlike East Asians who are supposedly full of resentment against white men, because they lose their women and can’t marry white women either. All of which is nonsense, of course, when you actually look at the data, especially beyond the superficial level, but he has not corrected himself.

    He’s surprisingly obstinate about never being wrong for someone who is supposed to be a professional truth teller in the age of polite lies. Where he realizes he’s wrong, he seems to just disappear the post rather than acknowledge his error. But nobody is perfect and he does more right than wrong, so he gets a pass.

    • Replies: @BB753
    , @AnotherDad
  77. Twinkie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    lots of these people simply voted to make sure their mother-in-laws will still be able to come and take care of the kids

    It’s not so much about the practicality about bringing mother-in-law-laws so much as feeling attacked personally. A huge fraction of Asians are either foreign-born or born in the U.S. to the foreign-born. And the MSM has been very successful at portraying Trump as a white nationalist (with an assist from the likes of Richard “Asian girls are a thing” Spencer) when, in fact, he is an economic and civic nationalist.

    My Korean neighbor who was born in America to immigrants is a staunchly gun-toting, church-going, small government Republican who has never voted for a Democrat until Trump. He voted against Trump. Although that’s a sample of one, I suspect that sentiment was widespread among many Asian voters who have voted traditionally for the GOP.

    Historically the Asians in my county have voted for the GOP (in the past, overwhelmingly composed of Vietnamese and Koreans) at times at higher rates than whites, but in the last presidential election, they voted by a large majority for Clinton over Trump. The major factors were Trump, the changed composition (half of Asians in my county are now Indians), and the higher SES of the Asians today (much higher income and educational attainment in the past). I should also note that Trump also lost the white vote in my county, which used to be a traditional Republican suburb and rarely voted for Democrats in president elections.

  78. Olorin says:
    @Hunsdon

    Rhodes Scholar too iirc.

  79. Olorin says:
    @Pheasant

    But no seafarers. Nope, not a 1.

  80. Richard S says:
    @Hail

    Yeah or possibly something like proto-Etruscan?

  81. @Achmed E. Newman

    I dunno. A fair number of words have different meanings when used in accounting/finance compared to the rest of your life.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  82. BB753 says:
    @Twinkie

    Well, I don’t think South Asians are luckier with White women than East Asians, but I could be wrong. What are the rates of outmarriage for men in both groups? I’m sure pretty high for Japanese and Koreans, not so much for Chinamen yet. As for South Indians, the religion barrier for Muslims must be a strong bulwark against marrying out, not to mention arranged marriages with cousins in the old country for Muslims and Hindoos alike.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  83. @Redneck farmer

    OK, granted, they may talk like this, and maybe even Mr. Pewitt does, but it still can confuse. An example in which “they” want to confuse you is with taxes, or instance. “The sales tax has risen 3% over the last 2 decades.” “Hey, that’s pretty good. We’ve got some real fiscal conservatives here in ________”. You’ll hear that when the tax went from 6% to 9%, which is, of course, a 50% increase.

    I’m not saying everyone is too stupid to understand, but many are.

  84. Corvinus says:
    @Anonymous

    “What will the people of the car future make it the creator of Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck?”

  85. dearieme says:
    @Colin Wright

    And that’s assuming that there’s such a thing as “Celtic genes” which seems pretty unlikely. As a part-“Celt” myself, I have to admit that much talk about Celts seems to me to be implausible, romantic piffle.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  86. Pontius says:
    @obwandiyag

    They forgot the Klan hood FFS.

  87. Nawyr says:
    @Twinkie

    That Finnic people have Siberian ancestry is generally not contested.

    On the other hand, your statement –” which many Eastern and Northern Europeans carry via Finnic admixture” — is patently incorrect, as I have shown you before.

    Perhaps you ought to check out my recent post history as to why.
    Or better yet, unplug your thrift store computer, take it it to the nearest e-waste recycling center, and never post on Unz.com ever again.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  88. @Anonym

    Viggo Mortensen is short and slight of build. Dennis Kucinich’s wife, Elizabeth, is almost half a foot taller than Mortensen.

    I saw both Mortensen and Kucinich’s wife, and she is a tall lady.

    I like Mortensen because he is short and scrappy and he smashes the bad guy and wins the lady.

    • Replies: @flyingtiger
  89. J1234 says:
    @Twinkie

    That ear needs medical attention.

    I’d opt for removal.

  90. Beckow says:
    @Hail

    3300 BC does seem early, that’s why I said ‘possibly’, but there were waves of invaders coming up the Danube valley and along the Adriatic coast starting with the end of Ice Age 11k ago. The IE invasion is usually given as 4-5k years ago – close enough.

    The way he was killed suggests that his tribal group was overrun in its mountain village, he had a 1-2 day old wound that was not healed. He survived, escaped higher up into the mountains, and the invaders either pursued him – maybe he killed one of them in the fracas – or found him accidentally.

    The alternative of an inter-group dispute makes less sense, he was older and seemed respected. But it is possible.

    We are seeing a glimpse of brutality of what happened most often: an invading, more mobile, better armed group came in, tried to kill all men, took the women, and took over. It was who-whom to the extreme, they were not negotiating or discussing it over camp fires. It was a given that most men from the previous group had no room in the new society. Women wailed a bit, and then moved on (betrayed). Our ancestors were more clear-headed when it came to the basics of life.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Neil Templeton
  91. Bliss says:
    @Hail

    So, in order, Filipinos, Pacific Islanders and Vietnamese were the most pro-Republican of the “Asians” while Indians, Hmong and Koreans were the most pro-Democrat.

    Yet even the most pro-Trump of the Asians, the Filipinos, preferred Hillary over Trump by more than a 2:1 margin…

  92. Bliss says:
    @Lot

    The only South Asian group that seems likely to have 100+ IQs are Parsis

    The Parsis of India are of Iranian origin. Iran, like the rest of the Middle-East, is a low IQ country (~82).

  93. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    Thanks so much, beautiful

  94. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    Did you every see the movie Trojan Women? It’s the women of Troy when they realize the Greeks have won and they will all be sold as slaves.

  95. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    The Armada Black Irish is a silly myth. Only 3 ships made it to Ireland. 2, the San Juan de Portugual and San Juan de Bapitiste made it to the east coast the Irish Sea They were captured as they staggered ashore, tied up, sent to London and back to Spain.

    I forget the name of the other. There was one survivor The 2 San Juans made it because one of them had a great navigator who’d been to Ireland before.

    Silly story as though there were no black haired people in Ireland before the Armada.

    It’s like the myth that all Italians look like unusually dark Arabs.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  96. @dearieme

    Certainly there is much to doubt that Central European “Celts” have any connection with the Atlantic Celts other than a shared “Hyperborean” culture. Moving tin up and down the Atlantic makes more sense than moving salt across Europe even with with the Rhine and Danube to help. They seem like two different groups to me. But, there is room for debate still.

  97. Hail says: • Website
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I wonder how this poll would compare to one of just generic R vs. D.

    Luckily for us, the same poll (National Asian American Survey, Fall 2016) asked a party identification question, independent of the Clinton-Trump matchup question. Same dataset; apples to apples. We can compare the results to see which group moved which way over its party-id-implied baseline.

    The party-identification question’s results were (Table 1, page 8 of the pdf):

    [Group]: Democrat – Indep./Other – Republican (Party Identification)
    Total Asian Americans: 41-41-16
    Asian Indian: 53-37-7
    Cambodian: 48-28-24
    Chinese: 30-61-7
    Filipino: 41-31-25
    Hmong: 60-36-4
    Japanese: 50-23-27
    Korean: 53-23-24
    Vietnamese: 29-47-23
    Pacific Islanders 41-40-17

    In terms of D:R ratio, Vietnamese(29-23) followed by the Filipinos (41-25) had ratios most favorable to R. The lopsided Hmong ratio found in this survey (60-4) is even more favorable to D than I imagine the Black ratio is; “Big if true.” The Asian Indian ratio (53-7) is also a lot more D-heavy than I somehow expected.

    ______________

    D-R party identification (41-16) vs. Clinton-Trump head-to-head (55-14) shows that you, Achmed E. Newman, are right on MAGA in ’16 having scared off Asians and rallied their marginals to the colors:

    [MORE]

    On R: You’ll note the small reduction in Trump support below the R baseline (-2) (16% called themselves R’s, which dropped to 14% expressing a firm Trump vote) (i.e, a loss of one-eighth of the already-small, self-ID’ed Asian Republican base; Asian Never Trumpers).

    On D: It looks like a significant number of political marginals and Don’t Knows, etc., those in the Independent/Other category, expressed an intent to vote for Clinton (+14) (41% called themselves D’s, but 55% expressed a firm Clinton vote; rallying to the ethnic flag in time of need).

    Note the Korean results; gap between party-identification and Clinton-Trump vote:

    Koreans with the right to vote in the USA
    Party ID (Dem.-Other-Rep.): 53-23-24
    Clinton – Other/DK – Trump: 63-27-10

    A complete collapse: 24% identified as Republicans but only 10% expressed an intention to vote for Trump. This appears to be the biggest fall off.

    The Vietnamese also had a fall off, not as dramatic as the Korean 6-to-1 Clinton margin:

    Vietnamese with the right to vote in the USA
    Party ID (Dem.-Other-Rep.): 29-47-23
    Clinton – Other/DK – Trump: 41-43-16

    So much for Vietnamese and Korean conservatism (?). (More properly stated: Korean and Vietnamese conservatives in the USA as fairweather friends of White conservatives.)

    I ask: Was either intervention really worth it?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  98. @Beckow

    Nice story. But more likely that he was involved in an alcohol- or passion-fueled incident with men, and perhaps women, that he knew well. That is generally how it works here and now, and is a likely description of the facts there and then.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  99. @Bugg

    I have seen Heaven’s gate. I liked it, but it was strange.

  100. @Charles Pewitt

    Mortensen played a great Freud is “A Dangerous Method.” The big brawling fistfight with Jung was the highlight of the movie. The car chase was great also.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  101. @flyingtiger

    However, the kung fu fight between Freud and Jung was needlessly protracted.

  102. JMcG says:
    @Anon

    The Duquesa Santa Anna was run aground off Rosbeg, near Ardara in County Donegal. The survivors, of which there were hundreds, marched cross country to Killybegs harbor and embarked on the Girona, which had stopped there to make repairs. The Girona sank off the coast of Antrim a few days later, drowning 1300.
    I think some more Armada ships touched on Mayo as well.

  103. Twinkie says:
    @Hail

    So much for Vietnamese and Korean conservatism (?). (More properly stated: Korean and Vietnamese conservatives in the USA as fairweather friends of White conservatives.)

    Your analysis is good, except the above part. Trump is not a “conservative” and created a realignment (translation: lost some conservatives and gained some liberals). He also, perhaps unintentionally, turned the GOP into the white party.

    In this I agree with Mr. Sailer’s assessment. If the Democrats turn into the black party, the GOP wins the Asian vote (e.g. 2014 midterms) or peels away a substantial fraction from the Democrats. On the other hand, if the GOP turns into the white party, in which nonwhites are spurned or seen as second class members, the Asian vote goes to the Democrats overwhelmingly.

    That’s the pitfall of overtly racialized politics.

    On a positive note, the Asian party ID is still weak, so there is time to capture their support. E.g. note the only nonwhite group among the Generation Z to support Trump by a majority:

    • Replies: @Bliss
  104. lhtness says:
    @Anonymous

    Soft tissues generally don’t fossilize.

  105. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @D. K.

    I always confuse him with Bruno Lawrence, of Smash Palace fame.

  106. Twinkie says:
    @BB753

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States#Asian_and_White

    Asian Americans of both genders who are U.S.-raised are much more likely to be married to Whites than their non-U.S.-raised counterparts. Of all the Asian American groups studied, Indian Americans showed the highest rates of endogamy, with the overwhelming majority of Indian American women and men marrying Indian American partners. Indian Americans were also the only Asian American group with higher outmarriage for men, whereas all other Asian American groups had higher outmarriage for women.[17] A 1998 Washington Post article states 36% of young Asian Pacific American men born in the United States married White women, and 45% of U.S.-born Asian Pacific American women took White husbands during the year of publication.[18]

    • Replies: @Andrew
  107. Twinkie says:
    @Nawyr

    That Finnic people have Siberian ancestry is generally not contested.

    On the other hand, your statement –” which many Eastern and Northern Europeans carry via Finnic admixture” — is patently incorrect, as I have shown you before.

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/11/the-genetic-heritage-of-europes-north/#.XA7Gg4pOmfA

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/03/22/285437.full.pdf

    My own wife who is English-German-Swedish carries a tiny fraction of Siberian ancestry, which is likely picked up via her Swedish ancestry (in turn via small Finnish admixture). This is very common among Swedes.

  108. @Nordic_racist

    Hey, Steve. I have been following your blog for quite a while. You have been claiming that Indian Brahmins – in particular, the South Indian variety – have a very high IQ, in 110-120 range or so.

    Steve never “claimed” this, he simply quoted the rambling India caste-IQ analysis of one of his commenters Rec1Man, who just happens to be a South-Indian Brahmin and–shockingly–found South-Indian Brahmins to be the smartest people in the world!

    Rec1Man’s 120 estimate is a joke. It might be a reasonable estimate for the IQ of South-Indian Brahmins who came on F1 to the US–but that’s a highly selected niche. (I know a lot of South-Indian, and some Maharastran, Brahmins who are indeed very sharp on-the-ball folks. But they have IIT backgrounds–the absolute Indian elite. Not representative at all–and they’ll tell you that.)

    Brahmins do have a long literate traditon and career niches in literate rent-seeking occupations. They are indeed likely to be well smarter than average. However given whom they had to outsmart to make a living–other Indians–the idea that they have an IQ as a group above the Ashkenazi’s 112, seems extremely unlikely. My SWAG would be 105–something like the Chinese, maybe a bit sharper, but skewing more verbal.

    However, we simply aren’t going to have any decent handle on the caste-IQ structure of India is until someone really goes and tests–with large N–their zillions of effectively micro-races, with a cross-cultural test like Raven’s.

  109. Beckow says:
    @Neil Templeton

    You are right that is how it mostly works, but this case has a few specifics: Otzi’s escape deep up into the mountains, his fresh recent wound. There was no alcohol detected in Otzi (maybe it doesn’t stay in the system). He was also a middle aged guy, so I don’t know about any ‘passions’.

    In-group fights usually stay geographically inside that group. The fact that seemingly respectable Otzi was escaping at his age suggests that the his group was attacked, not just him. The timing during the year – right before winter – also suggest an external raid to get accumulated food after summer-fall. I also think members of his group if they were chasing him, would try to capture him or kill him from close-up, shooting an arrow is done more by strangers.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
  110. @Twinkie

    I don’t recall the exact verbiage, but he used to write about how Indians are more loquacious, extroverted, intellectually curious, etc. implying that they were more like whites than East Asians and would be voting Republican, but for minority setasides they get as “Asians.”

    Twinkie, do you have any cite for this–the assertion that Indians should be more Republican?

    That they are more loquacious, Steve has both remarked upon and is obviously true. Indians are big b.s.ers. However, he’s even sometime noted that they are “more like Jews” or the like, which is hardly an argument for more Republican.

    In general–while definitely a 2nd order effect after all the ethnic, income/education/class stuff–there is a cline of STEM/producer more Republican, verbal/rent-seeker more Democrat.

    (And yeah, Indians do not have the marriage skew that shows up in East Asians. They tend to be low in outmarriage compared to other Asians–but at equal rates. That probably cuts down on male grievance. All else being equal that might cut political resentment of whites by male Indians. But all else is seldom equal.)

    ~~
    I haven’t noticed Steve to have some sort of issue admitting he’s wrong.

    One thing i like about Steve is his general modesty of approach. He has an opinions or ideas about a lot of stuff. The insights he’s had that he’s fairly confident in, he states pretty confidently–often writes up at greater length (e.g. coalition of the fringes, affordable family formation/dirt gap). And i can’t think of too many times where his big ideas seem just wrong. But he also has a lot of ideas that he just tosses over the fence. Which i like for this sort of blog. Let the–first class–commenters he has here bang them about.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Twinkie
    , @Twinkie
  111. Andrew says:
    @Garlic

    Not a surprise, Steve is Swiss.

    I’m of Swiss background also, and Ötzi the Iceman is a relative. We share the same Y Chromosome. G-men seem to love the mountain life.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
  112. Andrew says:
    @Hail

    What was Otzi’s language?

    As far as I’d guess, something in the Vasconic family is the best bet (of which, Basque is the sole present-day survivor). Anyone have any thoughts?

    Given that he lived in Austrian Alps in Tirol, it was probably an early form of the Rhaetian language that was creolized by the Yamyana and then the Romans into the ancestor of the Romansch/Ladino languages.

  113. Andrew says:
    @Twinkie

    LOL, Asian Americans marrying themselves out of existence Twinkie. Two generations hence, they will just be another white ethnic group.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  114. Bliss says:
    @Twinkie

    if the GOP turns into the white party, in which nonwhites are spurned or seen as second class members, the Asian vote goes to the Democrats overwhelmingly.

    Asians voted overwhelmingly for the Democrats both times Obama ran for President.

    With blacks constituting just 10% of voters it is absurd to project that the Democratic Party will ever become the Black Party. On the other hand, whether you like it or not, it makes more sense to see the Republican Party as the de facto White Party.

    note the only nonwhite group among the Generation Z to support Trump by a majority

    Highly unlikely that anywhere close to 53% of Generation Z Korean (or Indian or Chinese) males supported Trump if it is 10% for all Koreans.

    That’s the pitfall of overtly racialized politics.

    You are dumb if you think sneaky racialized politics does not have pitfalls. You can’t fool all the people all the time.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Neil Templeton
  115. Twinkie says:
    @Andrew

    LOL, Asian Americans marrying themselves out of existence Twinkie. Two generations hence, they will just be another white ethnic group.

    It’s getting pretty hard to find pure-blooded Japanese-Americans these days. I suspect that’s happening now to Koreans, for example (I read on Karlin’s blog that the number of people identifying as Korean in the Census as declined in the last 10 years or so).

    I am all for assimilation. However, I think Asian out-marriage rate in the U.S. is declining. The following is from the 2017 Pew study on intermarriages:

    Among Asian newlyweds, these gender differences exist for both immigrants (15% men, 31% women) and the U.S. born (38% men, 54% women). While the gender gap among Asian immigrants has remained relatively stable, the gap among the U.S. born has widened substantially since 1980, when intermarriage stood at 46% among newlywed Asian men and 49% among newlywed Asian women.

    Of course the absolute number of Asian out-marriages has risen, so such couplings are more visible even if the overall rate is declining.

  116. Twinkie says:
    @Bliss

    Asians voted overwhelmingly for the Democrats both times Obama ran for President.

    But they had Obama-fatigue and voted in the majority for the GOP in the 2014 midterms. Do you remember what was happening c. 2014?

    With blacks constituting just 10% of voters it is absurd to project that the Democratic Party will ever become the Black Party

    Blacks are not 10% of the voters in the Democratic Party. They are quite often king-makers in many states’ primaries. And they vote as a single bloc more than any other large ethnic group.

    On the other hand, whether you like it or not, it makes more sense to see the Republican Party as the de facto White Party.

    Did you know that the GOP has become less white? I believed I discussed that directly with you recently.

    Highly unlikely that anywhere close to 53% of Generation Z Korean (or Indian or Chinese) males supported Trump if it is 10% for all Koreans.

    Generation Z is much more nationalist or, if you will, Trumpist than the current voting cohorts. That could change, of course, as they age, but it remains to be seen. It’s not just Asians, even among whites, Hispanics, and yes, blacks – particularly among males – youth support for Trump is higher.

  117. Twinkie says:
    @AnotherDad

    Twinkie, do you have any cite for this–the assertion that Indians should be more Republican?

    I don’t, but I remember reading something along that line several times in Mr. Sailer’s posts over the years. Let me do a search.

    All else being equal that might cut political resentment of whites by male Indians.

    Aside from white guys who like to puff themselves up based on the Asian marriage gender gap and some whiney Asians on the internet, I have never encountered, witnessed, or seen any evidence of this supposed resentment of white males by Asian males because of women in real life (I think a much more likely source of resentment would be the so-called “Bamboo Ceiling”). Asians males have higher intermarriage rates with white women than black males do. Furthermore, the former are at higher SES and are assortative, meaning higher quality women. And, in general, Asian males have higher marriage rates than any other large ethno-racial group (meaning fewer single men). So why would there be resentment?

    I haven’t noticed Steve to have some sort of issue admitting he’s wrong.

    He’s not wrong a lot, but when he is, he doesn’t retract. I already addressed the Asian intermarriage gender gap issue. Then there is the distasteful post about Prince Harry’s wife that just disappeared.

  118. @Beckow

    Nice follow-up. I look forward to the movie.

  119. @Bliss

    Bliss, what’s so sneaky about “You’re either wid’ us, or agin’ us!”

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  120. @Andrew

    Otzi is Swiss? No wonder he’s panhandling in Buffalo. His bank account is frozen.

  121. Twinkie says:
    @Neil Templeton

    “You’re either wid’ us, or agin’ us!”

    Of course, a follow-up question to that might be “If I choose you, do we really become ‘us?’”

  122. Twinkie says:
    @AnotherDad

    Start with this: https://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/10/who-are-asians.html

    Unfortunately, the actual article on VDare leads to a dead link.

  123. Twinkie says:
    @AnotherDad

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/how-asian-indians-vote/

    The most obvious step is to take away South Asians’ valuable status as minorities eligible for various minority-only benefits to business. Go back to pre-1982 when they were just Caucasians not entitled to racial spoils. Right now, South Asians have a financial incentive to identify as victimized minorities — indeed, the applications Indian entrepreneurs have to fill out for government benefits in terms of procurement and loans often demand that they concoct narratives about how discriminated against they are by whites. Remove this destructive incentive and the traditional South Asian aspiration to whiteness will re-emerge. [Bold face mine.]

    I actually never read this before. Apparently, Mr. Sailer believes (or believed at one point) that Indians naturally aspire to whiteness, but for the Census classification in the U.S.

    https://www.econlib.org/archives/2013/02/why_are_asians.html

    Here he argues that Indians vote so lopsidedly for the Democrats, because Republicans don’t respect them.

    By the way, these aren’t the articles, to which I was referring above. I can’t seem to find those, where he describes Indians as intellectually curious (unlike East Asians and more like whites, I suppose), are verbally facile (again, less like the quantitatively and visuospatially-oriented Orientals), and are natural conservatives (unlike the allegedly collectivist East Asians), etc.

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