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  1. MC says:

    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of “White Nationalism” breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don’t see why the common denominator of “whiteness” should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Or rather perhaps some Brits don't want to see even more Muslims entering into their nation via easy open borders thru EU immigration policies.
    , @al gore rhythms
    I agree. Richard Spencer's White nationalism is a product of the European melting pot of America, but there is no evidence that it is particular or culturally specific enough to be able to create a deep-rooted sense of identity that tugs at the heart in the way that being English or French does. In fact I sometimes wonder whether the 'white guilt' religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities. But whether that is the case or not, it is a mistake to transplant the racial situation of the New World onto Europe, which, while there are paralells, is also quite different.

    In reality the EU is bad for whites and bad for European civilisation. One only has to look at the enemies ranged against the Brexit vote--Obama, Merkel, the IMF. It's like a who's who of ISteve.

    The EU is a Utopian dream, as was the Soviet Union. Totalitarian societies are created by people who, like Merkel with her refugees--'if I can't do this then this isn't my Germany' believe so strongly in the goodness of their own feelings and instincts that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction that stands in their way. If you accept the logic of the EU then you will probably accept the logic of a one world government and the steamrollering of race, culture, family, and morality that this will carry in its wake by those who will will enfore their rule with ruthless piety. For me a world stripped of all the glorious quirks of human culture for the sake of global capital and leftist religion is a nightmare not a fantasy. It's like wanting to see all the rainforests and all its natural wonders pulled up and covered in tarmac. I want the globalists to lose, and it can't come soon enough.

    So I'm voting to leave.
    , @al gore rhythms
    I agree. It's a mistake to transplant the white nationalism of America onto Europe which still has particular ethnic identities which seem to have a depth and emotional pull that 'whiteness' has not yet proved itself to have in America. In fact I do wonder if the 'white guilt' religion of white American liberals is an attempt to try and fill this void with what amounts to a new basis for a shared sense of history and common future of white Americans.

    The EU is a utopian dream just as the soviet union was. Totalitarian societies are created by the kind of leftist idealists who are dangerous because they have such a high regard for their own idealism and moral goodness that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction because they trust so deeply in the goodness of their own instincts, just like Angela Merkel and her 'if I can't do this it's not the Germany I know' approach to re-writing German immigration law--the liberal version of the 'Fuhrer principle' if you will. Such are the people that govern the EU. If you accept the logic of one-Europe government you will also probably accept the logic of one world government, and the steamrollering of all race, culture, family, religious and moral difference that will come in its wake and which will be enforced with ruthless piety.

    So I'm voting to leave to put a spoke in the wheel of international capital and left wing religious utopianism.
    , @AndrewR
    Can you sum up his argument? Don't really feel like finding it.

    Personally I think he falls victim to the very common WN bad habit of underestimating intra-"white" rivalries and enmities. This is understandable to a degree given the high amount of ethnic and cultural mixing in the US (most Americans have extremely little understanding of or connection to their ancestral cultures unless they are first or second (and some third) generation immigrants). Hell, most people couldn't even tell you their specific ethnic backgrounds.

    , @Neoconned
    That would be the UKIPs downfall.

    There's a term "front" for a coalition of left-wing parties with disparate interests. Not all immigration restrictionists are right wing much less racists or neo Nazi types.

    I consider myself a social democrat like Bernie but I'd be willing to join a coalition of anti immigration parties dfrom the right because immigration is more important an issue to jobs and wage security than even taxation or regulations because supply and demand of labor dictates union power and job stability.

    There needs to be a pan-European front of immigration restriction parties and past early 20th century definitions of "left vs right"
    , @Perspective
    I would counter that the EU is not only anti-nationalist but also hostile to indigenous Europeans. The machinery of the EU is designed to break down national barriers and blur individual European identities by bringing in non-Europeans and mixing up the different European ethnicities the best they can. I hope that the UK exits the EU and this causes a domino effect where other nations break away until the EU finally crumbles. I don't see this happening, call me cynical (and I hope I'm wrong), but I think the vote will be rigged. The political elite has a lot riding on this experiment.

    A united Europe of course can be a great thing, but this Union is dangerous to Europeans as a whole. Especially with people like Merkel and Junker in charge.
    , @Anonymous
    Richard Spencer and the Alt Right in a Nutshell:

    https://youtu.be/PHbv3XiKPA0
    , @anon
    I imagine that's his position yes but the EU argument isn't really about separate nationalisms vs white nationalism - although that is part of it - the EU is a globalist project from top to bottom and it's aim is the destruction of the European nation states by destroying the underlying nations and it can't be reformed from within to change it to an alliance of nation states in the time we have left.

    It has to be brought down first with the constituent nations regaining nationalist govts and *then* build an EU of nation states.
    , @Lurker
    The UK MSM constantly pushes a bemused line of "Gee, why do these white knuckle draggers have a problem with free movement within Europe, what's wrong with Germans living in Britain?"

    It's bullshit. Most Brits have no problem with Europeans living in the UK, maybe there are somewhat too many Poles, but the real issue is 3rd world, non-white migration facilitated by the EU. Which the MSM entirely ignore and the main parties strenuously overlook too. So the whole public debate is a lie. No surprise to anyone who reads iSteve.
    , @Anonymous
    I am a Finnish nationalist. I care more about Finns than I care about other people. And I care more about Europeans ("whites") than non-Europeans. "Concentric loyalties" I believe is the term.

    I certainly don't want to fill my country with Iraqis, Somalis, or Afghanis, but neither do I want to fill it with immigrants from other European countries. Of course, if it must happen, I'd much rather have European immigrants. But I'd rather not.

    Spencer says a lot of stupid shit about the EU and ethnic nationalists (he refers to us as "petty nationalists"). He sounds almost as bad as anti-nationalist open borders advocates. He's just plain wrong about many things, e.g. saying that the EU has nothing to do with the refugee/immigration disaster, that the nation states are wholly at fault. For one, the so-called "freedom of movement" (i.e. lack of border controls) within the EU is a huge reason for it. The vast majority of the asylum seekers simply wouldn't be able to reach their desired destinations in Northern Europe without it. We Finns wouldn't have gotten 32,000+ asylum seekers last year without it. Spencer is just an ignorant armchair general with no skin in the game.

    I hope that Brexit happens. It should make the federalists who control the EU less arrogant, less utopian, and less aggressive about pushing their stupidity on Europeans. It's no panacea, but it's a step in the right direction.
    , @This Is Our Home
    Spencer is an idiot who takes his politics from Warhammer 40k.
    , @Cagey Beast
    Richard Spencer sees the EU through WASP eyes. He sees Europe's nations as small and silly. Whatever. He's generally good on other topics but he's the Bill Kristol of Brexit.
    , @celt darnell
    Richard Spencer is against Brexit because he's ignorant of what the EU is about.

    In short, he's ignorant.

    If you really think the EU is in any way a form of solidarity among white Europeans, ask yourself why all European nationalists oppose it.

    If you're in favour of non-white immigration into Europe you're almost always pro-EU.
    If you oppose non-white immigration into Europe, you're almost always anti-EU.

    It's not difficult.
    , @Joe Walker
    This is precisely why I and many other people of Irish Catholic ancestry oppose British rule in Ireland. Just because British Protestants are white does not mean that they should rule over Irish Catholics in Ireland.
    , @Lagertha
    From a strange, personal and Finnish perspective: I have always thought that the EU big shots should not have gored the Finnish timber wolf. The Finns have been the perfect EU country (to the perfection of Rubeness that even the Minnesota Finns could not have achieved) - in that, they have followed the rules.

    The GDP loss of 25% from 2+ years long, yearly trade with Russia was the straw that broke the timber wolf's back. Finland has always been treated as a Rube country (no aristocracy/always a territory of Russia & Sweden) but, you wanna know something?, Brexit gives them that golden chance to save face, not be demonstrative of emotion, and say, "yeah, we're out too."

    If Finns are going to pay 20% more taxes per person for all the refugees (who do not assimilate but demand public welfare/services) in the country currently, they gotta get out from under the power of the Galactic Republic so to speak. And, they gottta get back to market with Russia - their economy is tanking, and Putin knows it. Putin, also, does not think the Finns are Rubes. Finns are the ultimate people - they want to left alone to live their lives.

    , @Evan
    I didn't see anyone, in reply to MC's comment, deal with Spencer's central point: the EU controls migration inside the EU, not into the EU. Immigration to the EU is under the complete control of the particular nation to which the migrant is arriving. I don't even know if that's strictly true, but the issue should be acknowledged and discussed.
  2. Most of Britain’s trade is currently with Europe. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/ I’m not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.

    • Replies: @Logan
    Pro-Brexiters have written extensively on this subject to show how it's a straw-man. Daniel Hannan goes into it in depth in Inventing Freedom. Reality is this: that 80% stat includes goods that are shipped out of Britain to other non-European locations through a European port, so when a European shipping company moves a million dollars worth of goods from Liverpool to Calais to New York, the statisticians call it European trade because it was purchase from Britain by a company in Calais, but the transaction would not have happened at all were it not for the consumer in New York. Realistically only about 20% of Britains goods are purchased by consumers in Europe, and that number has fallen every year for the past 20.
    , @Expletive Deleted

    I’m not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.
     
    Money-laundering. And nukes.
    , @John Derbyshire, @Bill
    Branston Pickle, surely.
    , @Neoconned
    Which is why a pan European front of immigration restriction parties would be a better solution than some romantic revisionist view of English history as some kind of unique unEuropean Elizabethan state.
    , @Kevin O'Keeffe

    Most of Britain’s trade is currently with Europe.
     
    And it will continue to be, after Brexit. Its not like the UK is going to cease trading with Western and much of Central Europe, just because they are no longer part of the EU. That might be what fear-mongering Remainers wish us to believe, but its absurd.
    , @anon
    Globalists always lie.

    80% of trade from Britain goes *through* European ports not *to* Europe.
    , @pyrrhus
    Europe needs Britain far more than Britain needs Europe--trade will continue, but on better terms for the UK most likely.....Remember, the dead-in-the-water EU wants to destroy the UK financial industry and dump unlimited immigrants on the Brits....
  3. It should happen in a just world. Will it happen in this world? i have slight hope that it will, based on nothing but a five thousand mile away reading of the media.

    I listened to a video from the oxford union this morning where a conservative MEP said if Britain controls its own borders Food prices will go down, wages will go up and who doesn’t want that, and then named off a bunch of Anglo and American banks. That a Member of the “establishment party” was saying this at the most Establishment debating society in the world. is proof that this is overturning the current neo-liberal mono culture.

    • Replies: @NOTA
    I'm not sure a politician promising endless good things if you'll only vote his way is 100% convincing. But honestly, I have no real idea what the best thing for the UK is.
    , @Bill
    Let's hope.
  4. Where are we going? We are done, but we created such beauty…

    The engines gave out.

  5. Biggest non-event of the century since Y2K itself. Simply won’t be permitted. Too many already filthy-rich fingers in the pie.
    I call a tiny Remain victory, amounting to little more than the number of postal votes over 50/50. Particularly after the martydom of St Jo.
    If the “wrong” result is returned, the EU will ask for a re-run. They have form on this. And even an outright Brexit vote could be filibustered and ignored by the current Westminster regime (all colours of tie). Not binding, or however they like to phrase it.
    Business as usual. Either way a win for the bankers and troughers. Schism of Conservative Party now its eternal civil war over Europe is out in the open. Splits in two. Labour working class (nb! not the posh people who run the parliamentary party) defects to UKIP-like nationalist faction, mirroring Scotland and the SNP, minus the porridge-socialism, the rump goes full Inner party, Greens, internationalist class warriors. Conceivably realigns SDP style with the Cameronista soft-left remains of the Tory party and any Libdems who might still exist.
    Whoever wins, resulting economic chaos associated with impending global financial crisis (which is bearing down regardless of what goes on on some silly little Atlantic offshore reef) blamed on Brexiteers, not globalists, huzzah!. Additional power grabs and confiscation of assets by EU in exchange for bailouts.

    • Replies: @Matthew Kelly
    This.
    , @John Derbyshire
    Not cynical enough.
    , @AKAHorace
    Alternate possibility. Brexit wins. From the point of view of the EU and their allies this is potentially serious as this in only one in a number of weaknesses that are showing up in the EU (Le Pen, the migrant crisis, Victor Orban) .

    They will need to make an example of the UK, the will do everything they can to destroy it. Cameron could actually use this to his advantage if he has the guts to do so.
    , @Glossy
    Biggest non-event of the century since Y2K itself. Simply won’t be permitted. Too many already filthy-rich fingers in the pie.

    I think this is correct.
  6. Of all the EU’s problems, the most fundamental flaw and the greatest reason to leave is this: The EU, like the commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution, began as a mechanism for elected officials to create a single free market but ended as a mechanism for un-elected bureaucrats to subvert the free market in favor of an ever-expanding list of social policies. Some of these policies exist for NO OTHER REASON than to abolish the market in favor of a centrally planned economy. What makes me even more suspicious of Europe’s politicians is that the transition from free market mechanism to federal bludgeon has occurred in Europe at a much faster rate and with more ambitious interventions than in the U.S. Add to that the fact that Europe’s traditional centers of power and weakness seem to line up in the same way as those imperial interests that caused two world wars, and I begin to wonder if this wasn’t the point all along.

    After the destruction of WWII one can hardly blame the UK for wanting to avoid another conflict by trying to address the root causes of those two world wars. But one must consider as many of those causal factors as possible and ask themselves honestly whether the EU is handling them successfully or not: economic inequality, Russian aggression, Islamic extremism from the Balkans and the former Ottoman Empire, ethnic migration to urban centers, German and French ambitions on the continent, etc. From this perspective it’s obvious the EU is a failure and is only making things worse (and shockingly deliberately, it seems).

  7. If you got married late in life, and it was pretty good at first, but then later you learned that your new wife had a daughter (Angela Merkel) who absolutely sucked and she was moving into your house and making all the decisions, and she liked to bring Syrian guys home… you would pack your stuff and move out.

    BREXIT.

  8. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    Or rather perhaps some Brits don’t want to see even more Muslims entering into their nation via easy open borders thru EU immigration policies.

    • Replies: @Fredrik
    The Muslims are entering through Britain's own policies. They are from Bangladesh and Pakistan.

    The vast majority of EU-immigrants are Europeans.
  9. @Uncle Peregrine
    Most of Britain's trade is currently with Europe. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/ I'm not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.

    Pro-Brexiters have written extensively on this subject to show how it’s a straw-man. Daniel Hannan goes into it in depth in Inventing Freedom. Reality is this: that 80% stat includes goods that are shipped out of Britain to other non-European locations through a European port, so when a European shipping company moves a million dollars worth of goods from Liverpool to Calais to New York, the statisticians call it European trade because it was purchase from Britain by a company in Calais, but the transaction would not have happened at all were it not for the consumer in New York. Realistically only about 20% of Britains goods are purchased by consumers in Europe, and that number has fallen every year for the past 20.

  10. @Uncle Peregrine
    Most of Britain's trade is currently with Europe. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/ I'm not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.

    I’m not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.

    Money-laundering. And nukes.

    • Replies: @Big Bill
    Very expensive real estate for sheiks, caliphs, bankers and hedge funders.
  11. TGGP says: • Website

    I’m for it, although as an American my opinion doesn’t matter. It’s my impression that smaller polities tend to be better governed. A “United States of Europe” is not a great idea, because the US is already too large to be effectively governable, and Europe is so divided by language & culture (the ECB is dominated by Germany to the detriment of others, while the PIIGS are in a rut and in some cases never had the quality of governance compatible with membership in the first place). Switzerland has multiple languages, but it’s been very decentralized for a long time rather than pushed toward “ever closer union”, with a large dose of popular referenda. Switzerland is outside of the EU and gets by just fine. One of the popular justifications for the EU is that it prevents war, but those aware of Sailer’s Dirt Theory of War know those are less likely in developed countries these days. The majority of war is now within states rather than between them. It’s entirely possible for countries to exist in peace with each other without any need for a federal union. The United States is at peace with its neighbors without the need for any such thing.

    A lot of argument over Brexit focuses on immigration. The Brexiters are hateful English bigots who need to be reprimanded by folks at the Economist (who think “influence is more important than sovereignty”, a rather imperial mindset), while the Europhiles are one-worlders singing kumbaya. But the question of what immigration policy is to be is distinct from who is it that will decide the policy. An independent UK would be free to adopt a lax migration policy, and if Merkel had made a different decision the EU might not have let in any Syrians.

    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
    • Replies: @NickG

    if Merkel had made a different decision the EU might not have let in any Syrians.
     
    And if your uncle had been born with tits and a box, he'd be your auntie.
  12. Existing nations, including the European Union, are too large.

    Instead of dozens of large nations, humanity would be better served by hundreds of small nations.

    Small nations are less vulnerable to corruption than large nations.

    Citizens of a small nation are less tolerant of a corrupt leader, because his actions have a great impact on their lives.

    There is less incentive to bribe the leader of a small nation, because there is less wealth to be stolen from a small nation than from a large nation.

    In other words, a small nation has a more responsive feedback loop than a large nation.

    A nation should be connected to other nations by free trade and small numbers of exceptional immigrants, not by completely open borders.

    • Replies: @SFG
    There's some truth to that...but don't forget the USA's hugeness allowed us to dominate North America and make invasion (of the military sort) impossible.

    Of course, the USA speaks English. The EU has countless languages and various countries with hundreds of years of history of being separate from each other. Not to mention huge cultural differences that lead to situations like the present one where the Germans feel ripped off and the Greeks feel oppressed, and they've both got a pretty good argument.

    I'm American. I'd like to see the UK drift away and perhaps come closer to us. But...it's their country.
    , @Leftist conservative
    agree--smaller nations serve the citizens better.

    And larger nations serve plutocrats and big corporations better.

    Why?

    Larger nations have diversity in geography. The voting districts are larger and therefore more diverse. Smaller districts, less diversity. In general.

    Why does the Establishment love diversity in all forms, be it race, color, creed, nationality or geography?

    Because diversity divides and does not unite the populace.

    Thus a more diverse populace is less able to unite and control the government, which allows plutocrats and corporations free rein. Diversity is strength...for those at the top.

    A large EU voting district, similar to a large american federal voting district, is less unified and cohesive than smaller voting districts. So the establishment can have free rein.

    As for why richard spencer/radix has gone pro-EU, perhaps he got a donation from a pro-EU donor?

    , @flyingtiger
    My experience from living in Chicago is the opposite. In small states, you have to bribe only one person and he usually comes cheap. In a large government, you have to bribe a number of people, and they want a lot. Also in large governments, it may not be clear, who is in charged.
    In Chicago, the company who bought the parking meters has made a fortune. The money goes to the UAE. So if you park in Chicago, you support ISIS.
  13. EH says:

    Odd that Junker and Hollande are both saying that “out is out”. Are they really so delusional as to think that does the “remain” side any good? Besides, it’s not believable that they won’t try by hook or crook to keep the UK in the EU. They will probably demand a do-over vote if they lose and can’t strong-arm the spineless UK leaders into ignoring the vote.

    It’s also odd that while the turnout-prediction corrected polls are running 49% leave to 44% remain that Bloomberg rates the chance of Brexit at 34%.

  14. Well, in typical British media fashion, most of the important details of this important debate are being swept aside to obsess over whether one of UKIP’s posters was “racist.”

    Nigel Farage’s anti-immigrant poster reported to police over claims it incites racial hatred.

    Notice how everything Farage and UKIP fight for is labeled “anti-immigrant,” as oppose to the much more appropriate “anti-immigration.” A small but insidious difference.

  15. Go ahead and stay, just look at what London did to the Scotts immediately after they voted to stay and think of that word not found in The Press, the one that starts with “immigra”. Then rejoice in the realization that the “wogs” don’t start at Calais, that’s where they embark from on the voyage across the EU channel.

  16. The correct method of withdrawal should be Flexit, not Brexit. See the excellent Eureferendum website, run for many years by Dr Richard North. You’re usually quite sharp on these matters, Steve, so it’s surprising you’ve not referred to it.
    Richard Spencer is merely one of a large number of persons and organisations, religious, social, political, who project their hopes, beliefs, fantasies onto the EU. The Roman Catholic Church beatified Robert Schumann and were apparently considering Jean Monet and Konrad Adenauer, all architects of the EU. In some RC circles, it was hoped that the EU would presage a new Holy Roman Empire. WRONG
    Spencer is not alone in thinking that the EU could be used for White Nationalist purpose. Step forward David Irving. WRONG AGAIN.
    The best history in English about the History of the EU is The Great Deception by Christopher Booker and Richard North ( see above ), both LEAVERS, needless to say.
    Read the book, Steve, if you want a proper understanding of this very strange entity, much stranger than the original Holy Roman Empire

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Spencer is not alone in thinking that the EU could be used for White Nationalist purpose. Step forward David Irving. WRONG AGAIN.
     
    And spectacularly so! It beggars belief that an ostensibly politically aware White person could believe something so obviously wrong. Empirically, we can see that the EU is evil, and theoretically we knew that it would be.
  17. The EU is to Britain as Rotherham Moslem serial rapists are to Englishwomen.

  18. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    I agree. Richard Spencer’s White nationalism is a product of the European melting pot of America, but there is no evidence that it is particular or culturally specific enough to be able to create a deep-rooted sense of identity that tugs at the heart in the way that being English or French does. In fact I sometimes wonder whether the ‘white guilt’ religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities. But whether that is the case or not, it is a mistake to transplant the racial situation of the New World onto Europe, which, while there are paralells, is also quite different.

    In reality the EU is bad for whites and bad for European civilisation. One only has to look at the enemies ranged against the Brexit vote–Obama, Merkel, the IMF. It’s like a who’s who of ISteve.

    The EU is a Utopian dream, as was the Soviet Union. Totalitarian societies are created by people who, like Merkel with her refugees–‘if I can’t do this then this isn’t my Germany’ believe so strongly in the goodness of their own feelings and instincts that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction that stands in their way. If you accept the logic of the EU then you will probably accept the logic of a one world government and the steamrollering of race, culture, family, and morality that this will carry in its wake by those who will will enfore their rule with ruthless piety. For me a world stripped of all the glorious quirks of human culture for the sake of global capital and leftist religion is a nightmare not a fantasy. It’s like wanting to see all the rainforests and all its natural wonders pulled up and covered in tarmac. I want the globalists to lose, and it can’t come soon enough.

    So I’m voting to leave.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    This is one of the most spot-on, eloquent comments I've ever read on this site. I plan to steal phrases like "people who believe so strongly in the goodness of their own feelings and instincts that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction that stands in their way." What a perfect description of the progressives I know - neither too harsh nor conspiracy-minded, and wholly accurate.

    And I had never before considered that "white guilt" might actually be a slinking sort of white identity performance for liberals. The ones I know never miss an opportunity to say something like, "well that's because everyone here is white" and then laugh desperately, and it does sometimes seem as though they're genuinely seeking some connection but too embarrassed to admit it.

    Thank you for the thoughts.
    , @The Last Real Calvinist

    In fact I sometimes wonder whether the ‘white guilt’ religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities.

     

    I believe this is correct. In the heretical post-Christian religious fervor that fuels all leftist sects, the 'Other' is a pawn, a prop employed in rituals of virtue-signalling and assertion of superiority over unenlightened fellow-white rubes and proles. Only good SWPLs/SJWs possess both moral agency and the essentially gnostic 'true knowledge' of what's Good and Right, so their words and actions are aimed at building up and advertising their identity, i.e. as the culmination of human development -- and as the saviors of the Other.
    , @AnotherDad
    Great comment Al. Along with your spot on point about the totalitarian mindset, this bit--the "tarmac" analogy is terrific:

    For me a world stripped of all the glorious quirks of human culture for the sake of global capital and leftist religion is a nightmare not a fantasy. It’s like wanting to see all the rainforests and all its natural wonders pulled up and covered in tarmac. I want the globalists to lose, and it can’t come soon enough.
     
    That's exactly spot on. Globalism is inherently totalitarian--that's the nature of "one" as opposed to many. But it also has the that depressing totalitarian aesthetic of leveling everything. Let the various peoples, races, cultures all live without putting us in the blender and beating us to a pulp.
    , @Some Economist

    Richard Spencer’s White nationalism is a product of the European melting pot of America, but there is no evidence that it is particular or culturally specific enough to be able to create a deep-rooted sense of identity that tugs at the heart in the way that being English or French does.
     
    You're very correct in saying his perspective is a uniquely American one, which, as far as I know, he does not much ruminate on. I can relate to it as an American under 35; with apologies here, intra-European ethnic squabbles seem petty to me reflexively. (Though intellectually, I get it.)

    In our regrettably globalist world, however, isn't the American experience in these matters increasingly relevant?

    In fact I sometimes wonder whether the ‘white guilt’ religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities.
     
    How do we then explain the angle from which a very French Pascal Bruckner's critique on the West's guilt comes from? Or the SNP supporting mass immigration? Or the Swedish penchant for ethnomasochism? "White guilt" is not at all unique to Americans.
  19. I predict that:

    (1) Brexit wins narrowly

    (2) David Cameron will refuse to implement the formal procedures to exit the EU, either:

    (2a) Openly citing the “whiteness” as the Leave electorate and the “rainbow/diverse” nature of the Remain electorate as an excuse, or citing the narrow margin of the Leave win, or citing the Jo Cox murder, or some combination thereof

    or

    (2b) He will, for public consumption, and while engaging in superficial but non-substantive measures, pretend to be exiting the EU, but substantively, not doing so in private and behind the curtains.

    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @snorlax

    I predict that:

    (1) Brexit wins narrowly

    (2) David Cameron will refuse to implement the formal procedures to exit the EU, either:

    (2a) Openly citing the “whiteness” as the Leave electorate and the “rainbow/diverse” nature of the Remain electorate as an excuse, or citing the narrow margin of the Leave win, or citing the Jo Cox murder, or some combination thereof

    or

    (2b) He will, for public consumption, and while engaging in superficial but non-substantive measures, pretend to be exiting the EU, but substantively, not doing so in private and behind the curtains.
     
    I too think Remain wins, but if Brexit wins it'll be 2B followed by 2A from the succeeding Labour government.
  20. All major decisions are made by NATO, so I don’t think Brexit from the irrelevant EU will change anything. On balance the UK might see less border cooperation from France so if the migrants in Calais get out of control France might help them find transport to the newly non EU Britain.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Exactly, you can't leave the EU without leaving NATO. And the only way to leave NATO is "manu militari ", i. e. with the force of arms.
    Having said that, if they allow Brexit to happen, it will be good news for Britain.
    , @random observer
    Are you kidding? NATO makes decisions on a pretty narrow set of issues and if anything Britain carries greater relative weight in it than in the EU as one of only two European members able to do anything of military value.

    The EU has a vastly greater impact on everything from the British economy to social policy to law enforcement and even on non-military national security matters.

    That point about France could be somewhat true.
  21. Brevity supporters ate exclusively comprised of old scared white people.

    Also, EU membership ensures prosperity, diversity, trade, and border equity

    Remain will win

    • Replies: @Antonymous
    "Also, EU membership ensures prosperity, diversity, trade, and border equity"

    The Duck likes it, Soros likes it, and the Economist likes it. I think it's clear that EU membership is not in Britain's best interest. Judging by one's enemies is amazing shorthand.
    , @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    "EU membership ensures prosperity, diversity, trade, and border equity"

    LOL. What good is border equity [sic?] when the immivasion is strictly one-way?
    , @Sutton
    White Man's Burden
    , @random observer
    If Brexit is the 'old and scared' position, why is the entire Remain campaign based on appealing to fear? Seems to me like the Brexiters are the only ones with any sense of courage or optimism, right or wrong though they might be.
    , @celt darnell
    Yes it's true, we supporters of brevity exclusively ate old, scared white people.

    I suspect you are thinking of someone else.
  22. @Pittsburgh Thatcherite
    Existing nations, including the European Union, are too large.

    Instead of dozens of large nations, humanity would be better served by hundreds of small nations.

    Small nations are less vulnerable to corruption than large nations.

    Citizens of a small nation are less tolerant of a corrupt leader, because his actions have a great impact on their lives.

    There is less incentive to bribe the leader of a small nation, because there is less wealth to be stolen from a small nation than from a large nation.

    In other words, a small nation has a more responsive feedback loop than a large nation.

    A nation should be connected to other nations by free trade and small numbers of exceptional immigrants, not by completely open borders.

    There’s some truth to that…but don’t forget the USA’s hugeness allowed us to dominate North America and make invasion (of the military sort) impossible.

    Of course, the USA speaks English. The EU has countless languages and various countries with hundreds of years of history of being separate from each other. Not to mention huge cultural differences that lead to situations like the present one where the Germans feel ripped off and the Greeks feel oppressed, and they’ve both got a pretty good argument.

    I’m American. I’d like to see the UK drift away and perhaps come closer to us. But…it’s their country.

  23. @Expletive Deleted
    Biggest non-event of the century since Y2K itself. Simply won't be permitted. Too many already filthy-rich fingers in the pie.
    I call a tiny Remain victory, amounting to little more than the number of postal votes over 50/50. Particularly after the martydom of St Jo.
    If the "wrong" result is returned, the EU will ask for a re-run. They have form on this. And even an outright Brexit vote could be filibustered and ignored by the current Westminster regime (all colours of tie). Not binding, or however they like to phrase it.
    Business as usual. Either way a win for the bankers and troughers. Schism of Conservative Party now its eternal civil war over Europe is out in the open. Splits in two. Labour working class (nb! not the posh people who run the parliamentary party) defects to UKIP-like nationalist faction, mirroring Scotland and the SNP, minus the porridge-socialism, the rump goes full Inner party, Greens, internationalist class warriors. Conceivably realigns SDP style with the Cameronista soft-left remains of the Tory party and any Libdems who might still exist.
    Whoever wins, resulting economic chaos associated with impending global financial crisis (which is bearing down regardless of what goes on on some silly little Atlantic offshore reef) blamed on Brexiteers, not globalists, huzzah!. Additional power grabs and confiscation of assets by EU in exchange for bailouts.

    This.

  24. I don’t know the details of who is eligible to vote but I suspect, since the government extended registration an extra day or two, that the requirments will be minimal. In the Scottish referendum the voting age was lowered to 16 to allow more young people ( who were supposed to be in favor if independence to vote). In this case, the more immigrants who are allowed to vote the better for the ‘Remain’ camp. For example, over 600,000 Polish citizens are resident in the UK. Its unlikely they ( or any other national or ethnic group) is going to vote in favor of a result that could lead to their deportation or deny them government benefits.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    For example, over 600,000 Polish citizens are resident in the UK. Its unlikely they ( or any other national or ethnic group) is going to vote in favor of a result that could lead to their deportation or deny them government benefits.
     
    I understand that among non-British EU nationals, only Irish citizens living in Britain are allowed to vote in the referendum - a weird historical thing legacy thing, probably.

    Nevertheless, if comments on Facebook and other internet forums by Poles living in the UK are anything to go by, the Poles are quite a reactionary bunch and give the impression they would vote Brexit if they could.

    Many of the Poles seem to see themselves as unappreciated saviours of Europe with the defeat of the Ottomans at the Battle of Vienna and the defeat of the Soviet Union in the Polish-Soviet war giving them good reason to think this.

    Also, hostility to Poles in the UK is superficial and restricted to people such as builders who have to compete with them.

    All British patriots know about the Polish fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain. I saw a comment on Facebook a few days ago where a fellow Brit asserted we would have lost the Battle of Britain without them, and nobody pointed out there wasn't actually that many of them. Its become the stuff of legend.

    I went to school with kids with Polish names whose dads had fought at Monte Casino or wherever.

    The Polish soldiers, sailors and airmen never went home after WWII, and this is quite possibly the reason why they are held in such high regard and their contribution to the defence of Britain and ultimate victory is somewhat overblown. But I don't begrudge them that.

    I am quite sure if you did confidential interviews with Poles in Britain you would be surprised at what they would say.

  25. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    I agree. It’s a mistake to transplant the white nationalism of America onto Europe which still has particular ethnic identities which seem to have a depth and emotional pull that ‘whiteness’ has not yet proved itself to have in America. In fact I do wonder if the ‘white guilt’ religion of white American liberals is an attempt to try and fill this void with what amounts to a new basis for a shared sense of history and common future of white Americans.

    The EU is a utopian dream just as the soviet union was. Totalitarian societies are created by the kind of leftist idealists who are dangerous because they have such a high regard for their own idealism and moral goodness that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction because they trust so deeply in the goodness of their own instincts, just like Angela Merkel and her ‘if I can’t do this it’s not the Germany I know’ approach to re-writing German immigration law–the liberal version of the ‘Fuhrer principle’ if you will. Such are the people that govern the EU. If you accept the logic of one-Europe government you will also probably accept the logic of one world government, and the steamrollering of all race, culture, family, religious and moral difference that will come in its wake and which will be enforced with ruthless piety.

    So I’m voting to leave to put a spoke in the wheel of international capital and left wing religious utopianism.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "I agree. It’s a mistake to transplant the white nationalism of America onto Europe which still has particular ethnic identities which seem to have a depth and emotional pull that ‘whiteness’ has not yet proved itself to have in America."

    Yeah Serbians for example do not see Swedes as their people. In Europe ethnicity trumps race because there are so many different languages on that continent. Europe is not united by one common language, so it is hard to create a pan-White identity when they can't even understand each other.
    , @iffen
    There is no American white nationalism of any significance which ties in nicely with the rest of your sentence.
  26. @Uncle Peregrine
    Most of Britain's trade is currently with Europe. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/ I'm not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.
    • Replies: @Uncle Peregrine
    Well done, sir.
    , @PiltdownMan
    I'd buy this, if they would export it.

    http://www.nestle.co.uk/brands/chocolate_and_confectionery/boxed/blackmagic

  27. @Expletive Deleted
    Biggest non-event of the century since Y2K itself. Simply won't be permitted. Too many already filthy-rich fingers in the pie.
    I call a tiny Remain victory, amounting to little more than the number of postal votes over 50/50. Particularly after the martydom of St Jo.
    If the "wrong" result is returned, the EU will ask for a re-run. They have form on this. And even an outright Brexit vote could be filibustered and ignored by the current Westminster regime (all colours of tie). Not binding, or however they like to phrase it.
    Business as usual. Either way a win for the bankers and troughers. Schism of Conservative Party now its eternal civil war over Europe is out in the open. Splits in two. Labour working class (nb! not the posh people who run the parliamentary party) defects to UKIP-like nationalist faction, mirroring Scotland and the SNP, minus the porridge-socialism, the rump goes full Inner party, Greens, internationalist class warriors. Conceivably realigns SDP style with the Cameronista soft-left remains of the Tory party and any Libdems who might still exist.
    Whoever wins, resulting economic chaos associated with impending global financial crisis (which is bearing down regardless of what goes on on some silly little Atlantic offshore reef) blamed on Brexiteers, not globalists, huzzah!. Additional power grabs and confiscation of assets by EU in exchange for bailouts.

    Not cynical enough.

    • Replies: @The Z Blog
    http://tinyurl.com/zvqnxna

    I'll see your cynicism and raise you my cynicism.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    Right! (Or in your case, Bloody well right!) And Trump will never be permitted to be the Republican nominee.
  28. Britain shouldn’t be given the opportunity to exit on their own, they should be politely ejected by the rest of Europe.

    Rather than trying to make its case while being part of team Europe, Britain has shown that if it can’t get its way it takes its ball and goes home. Their uncompromising attitude ruins whatever great potential to take the mantle of leadership there might have been. Whether the Euro currency, Schengen zone, social and employment regulation or foreign policy, Britain has shown that if it can’t have its way entirely it will just “opt out.” So what is the point of them having a voice at the table if they refuse to use it? What is the point of the rest of Europe accommodating British intransigence and obstruction of the realization of European projects?

    It’s unfortunate that Europe finds itself in such a moment of disunity and lack of vision. The most recent history of economic crisis, hegira immivasion and terror should highlight the shared western secular and Christian values that unite the people of European nations. Rather than focusing on the shared values and collective solutions, national leaders have retreated to national politics and catastrophic fractured national measures, such as the invitation of the Merkel youth.

    If Britain narrowly decides to remain tomorrow, European leaders may regret their vigorous efforts to encourage them to vote to stay because British citizens will have shown they are divided and unenthusiastic members of the European project. No matter the outcome of this vote, there will still be years of uncertainty about their role in Europe.

    What could be a civil divorce will sadly remain an unhappy marriage.

    • Replies: @Honorary Thief
    If remain wins, no matter how narrowly, British elites will give no fucks about any lingering anti-EU sentiments and will right the fuck back to business as usual.
    , @random observer
    Perfectly valid points from the perspective of anyone who considers the EU identical with the idea of "Europe" [eg phrases like "The Hour of Europe has come!!" or "We need more Europe"], who can speak idealistically of Europe as a "project" or who believes in the ideal of "ever closer union" or a single political union.

    The British people may have been stupid in the 1970s not to have read the founding documents and the writings of the founders closely enough, but that's not what they were sold back then and not what they voted for in the original referendum. Since then they have been slowly getting the picture of what continental Europeans seem to want [allegedly], realizing it's maybe not for them, and pushing their governments to take a more nationalistic line with extremely limited success. British elites have long been of two minds, but they have in part seemed to share these sentiments when it suited them.

    Today will be interesting- if this vote had been held 20 years ago leave might have won, or remain might have won because Britons hadn't seen the worst of it yet. Now I have no idea- they've had 20 years more both to see the worst of the EU, to see its many current failings even on its own terms, but also to get another generation simply used to being part of it, rain or shine.
  29. @okie
    It should happen in a just world. Will it happen in this world? i have slight hope that it will, based on nothing but a five thousand mile away reading of the media.

    I listened to a video from the oxford union this morning where a conservative MEP said if Britain controls its own borders Food prices will go down, wages will go up and who doesn't want that, and then named off a bunch of Anglo and American banks. That a Member of the "establishment party" was saying this at the most Establishment debating society in the world. is proof that this is overturning the current neo-liberal mono culture.

    I’m not sure a politician promising endless good things if you’ll only vote his way is 100% convincing. But honestly, I have no real idea what the best thing for the UK is.

    • Replies: @Daniel Williams

    But honestly, I have no real idea what the best thing for the UK is.
     
    Me either. But looking at the people arguing against Brexit, it's hard not to hope it will happen.
  30. @Uncle Peregrine
    Most of Britain's trade is currently with Europe. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/ I'm not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.

    Branston Pickle, surely.

  31. @okie
    It should happen in a just world. Will it happen in this world? i have slight hope that it will, based on nothing but a five thousand mile away reading of the media.

    I listened to a video from the oxford union this morning where a conservative MEP said if Britain controls its own borders Food prices will go down, wages will go up and who doesn't want that, and then named off a bunch of Anglo and American banks. That a Member of the "establishment party" was saying this at the most Establishment debating society in the world. is proof that this is overturning the current neo-liberal mono culture.

    Let’s hope.

  32. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    Can you sum up his argument? Don’t really feel like finding it.

    Personally I think he falls victim to the very common WN bad habit of underestimating intra-“white” rivalries and enmities. This is understandable to a degree given the high amount of ethnic and cultural mixing in the US (most Americans have extremely little understanding of or connection to their ancestral cultures unless they are first or second (and some third) generation immigrants). Hell, most people couldn’t even tell you their specific ethnic backgrounds.

    • Replies: @MC
    I've only seen his comments on Twitter, which are mostly sniping at Brexit supporters that it won't accomplish anything, or that somehow it's going to lead to the UK being flooded with immigrants from the British Commonwealth.
    , @27 year old
    My understanding of Spencer is he basically figures look, this whole power structure exists, why destroy it when we could use it? He believes that Europeans are going to need international cooperative organization to protect themselves from non-White invasion. If not right this minute, they're going to need it eventually given the non-White population explosion. So he envisions a pan-White-nationalist EU, to keep the invaders out, protect the markets, keep tabs on marxists and issuing decrees supporting traditional values. Instead of faggy globalist shills and diversity hires having cushy paper pushing jobs in Brussels, it could be a bunch of shitlords with cushy paper pushing jobs in Brussels.

    I have mixed thoughts. On the one hand it's a really nice vision. On the other hand, Europeans have blood-and-soil nationalism already, so why go from easy rhetoric like "German for Germans" to some abstract thing about re-configuring the EU? Plus, opposing the EU has been a winning issue for nationalist parties, and they need to win in order to have any hope of changing the EU in a pro-White direction.
  33. Stupid idea. A better solution would be keep the Euro and have a coalition of pan European anti immigration parties running the European system.

    Europeans moving from nation to nation is a good idea – it’s all the ppl smugglers and the “refugees” who are ruining a pan European system that used to work quite well.

    Even if they leave the EU…..it doesn’t mean immigration restrictionists will seize power in parliament. The g lobalists in London could still kick the hothouse door open to immigration and refugees.

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian. They’re preferable to the Hindu-islamic hordes coming from the third world slums…..

    Brexit would close the door to trade between European nations but wouldn’t necessarily ban African or Islamic immigration to the U.K.

    The British who delude themselves into thinking they “aeuropean” ignore history and believe in Anglo cultural nonsense with no roots in western history.

    • Replies: @Pittsburgh Thatcherite
    Europe should be composed of independent nations that can continue to function even if any single nation self-destructs.

    A Europe of independent nations is much less likely to experience a continent-wide catastrophic failure than a single European superstate.

    , @iSteveFan

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian.
     
    Do the Brits dislike Romanians? Or do the Brits dislike Gypsies from Romania?
    , @anon

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing.
     
    Roma. The media won't say that because of PC so they say Romanian instead.

    (Roma > Romanian in PC victim hierarchy)
    , @AnotherDad

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian.
     
    There's absolutely no reason Brits shouldn't be free to dislike in invasion of any other people, white or not. Brits should be--and are by natural law--free to decide they want to live just with other Brits. (Ditto smaller units like Scots, English, Welsh, Cornish as well.) People have a fundamental right to live with whom they want to live.

    ~

    I any case, if there's any big hub-bub about "Romanians", it's actually Roma--Gypsies. And they, in fact, are not white. The are Indian tribals--the DNA is conclusive. And they are a mess.

    We can have all sorts of colorful arguments about the utility of having these various endogamous middle man minorities around. (I say it's bad in the long run--develop your own commercial talents.) But the Roma are a group who's particular niche is just ... theft. They are just parasites on the host society with absolutely no redeeming value whatsoever. None.

    And it's very clear that the EU has absolutely no idea how to handle them, what to do with them. And that's why no one wants to talk about them. The Roma are a group who pretty much prove that "diversity" is not always so great, and that "diverse" people do not in fact just somehow sort of work out.
    , @random observer
    Of course Britain is European. What else could it be? African?

    On the other hand it is not French or German, and it has never been much good at being part of a continental union. England had excellent and close relations with the Frankish empire, but was never going to be part of it.

    On the other hand 'Anglo cultural nonsense', along with German, Italian, and French cultures, has been at the top level of driving western history for over a thousand years now. Granted, it kicked into a higher gear in the 18th century, but it contributed a few major things pre-1000 and again in the 16th century before that.
  34. @NOTA
    I'm not sure a politician promising endless good things if you'll only vote his way is 100% convincing. But honestly, I have no real idea what the best thing for the UK is.

    But honestly, I have no real idea what the best thing for the UK is.

    Me either. But looking at the people arguing against Brexit, it’s hard not to hope it will happen.

    • Replies: @NOTA
    Yeah, it may be good or bad policy, but at least it gives a lot of overpromoted elites heartburn.
  35. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    That would be the UKIPs downfall.

    There’s a term “front” for a coalition of left-wing parties with disparate interests. Not all immigration restrictionists are right wing much less racists or neo Nazi types.

    I consider myself a social democrat like Bernie but I’d be willing to join a coalition of anti immigration parties dfrom the right because immigration is more important an issue to jobs and wage security than even taxation or regulations because supply and demand of labor dictates union power and job stability.

    There needs to be a pan-European front of immigration restriction parties and past early 20th century definitions of “left vs right”

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    I consider myself a social democrat like Bernie
     
    Move to Venezuela. We don't need leftism here. And take the Bern with you.
  36. @Uncle Peregrine
    Most of Britain's trade is currently with Europe. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/ I'm not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.

    Which is why a pan European front of immigration restriction parties would be a better solution than some romantic revisionist view of English history as some kind of unique unEuropean Elizabethan state.

    • Replies: @celt darnell
    How about the romantic revisionist view of America as somehow different from the European nations?
  37. If Britain leaves, will Scotland then try again to leave Britain?

    • Replies: @anon
    yes

    (which is good imo, globalists are currently holding all the cards so the more the system is stressed the better)
    , @Anonymous
    It would. But UK won't leave and yet Scotland will try again to leave it. Give it another decade or so.
  38. EU means Germany decides Greek fiscal policy and Hungarian immigration policy, while anathematizing opposition and waving hundred-mark bills through the trailer parks of the unemployed in poorer countries. If Brexit loses, RIP democracy and free speech.

  39. In the EU, crops that were not on a list of approved varieties were forbidden. It takes a considerable amount of money to get a vegetable variety on that list, so anything people aren’t willing to shell out huge amounts of money for cannot be sold.

    And when I say “cannot be sold”, I mean that gardening businesses that sold old ‘heirloom’ and open-pollinated varieties were raided by armed men wearing body armor and carrying assault weapons. Because they were selling types of beans and peas and rutabagas that weren’t approved.

    These weren’t foreign plants being brought across national borders, these were old and familiar vegetables that had been grown for decades if not centuries and posed no conceivable risk to anyone. All those gardeners were turned into criminals.

    I don’t understand why the British thought entering the EU was a good idea, and I have no idea why they’d think leaving wasn’t the obvious choice. They should regain their own sovereignty in all matters, from immigration to what sorts of seeds should be sold, and scrap trying to centrally plan their economy.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    I mean that gardening businesses that sold old ‘heirloom’ and open-pollinated varieties were raided by armed men wearing body armor and carrying assault weapons.
     
    Social democrats. But it demonstrates the rai·son d'ê·tre for the 2nd Amendment.
  40. @AndrewR
    Can you sum up his argument? Don't really feel like finding it.

    Personally I think he falls victim to the very common WN bad habit of underestimating intra-"white" rivalries and enmities. This is understandable to a degree given the high amount of ethnic and cultural mixing in the US (most Americans have extremely little understanding of or connection to their ancestral cultures unless they are first or second (and some third) generation immigrants). Hell, most people couldn't even tell you their specific ethnic backgrounds.

    I’ve only seen his comments on Twitter, which are mostly sniping at Brexit supporters that it won’t accomplish anything, or that somehow it’s going to lead to the UK being flooded with immigrants from the British Commonwealth.

  41. I am hoping to God that that Leave wins — and if it does, the questions Brexit raises about immigration and sovereignty will be taken up here.

    Obviously we don’t have “rulers” in Brussels like those who are members of the EU but we sure do have the Global Elite lording it over us.

    Down with the Global Elite, that’s what I say.

  42. @al gore rhythms
    I agree. It's a mistake to transplant the white nationalism of America onto Europe which still has particular ethnic identities which seem to have a depth and emotional pull that 'whiteness' has not yet proved itself to have in America. In fact I do wonder if the 'white guilt' religion of white American liberals is an attempt to try and fill this void with what amounts to a new basis for a shared sense of history and common future of white Americans.

    The EU is a utopian dream just as the soviet union was. Totalitarian societies are created by the kind of leftist idealists who are dangerous because they have such a high regard for their own idealism and moral goodness that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction because they trust so deeply in the goodness of their own instincts, just like Angela Merkel and her 'if I can't do this it's not the Germany I know' approach to re-writing German immigration law--the liberal version of the 'Fuhrer principle' if you will. Such are the people that govern the EU. If you accept the logic of one-Europe government you will also probably accept the logic of one world government, and the steamrollering of all race, culture, family, religious and moral difference that will come in its wake and which will be enforced with ruthless piety.

    So I'm voting to leave to put a spoke in the wheel of international capital and left wing religious utopianism.

    “I agree. It’s a mistake to transplant the white nationalism of America onto Europe which still has particular ethnic identities which seem to have a depth and emotional pull that ‘whiteness’ has not yet proved itself to have in America.”

    Yeah Serbians for example do not see Swedes as their people. In Europe ethnicity trumps race because there are so many different languages on that continent. Europe is not united by one common language, so it is hard to create a pan-White identity when they can’t even understand each other.

  43. I think it’s the last chance to stop the road to an eventual one world tyrannical government

  44. Will Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson end up being the Eamon de Valera and Micheal Collins of Brexit? Will Johnson be sent to Brussels to negotiate Home Rule only to later die in an ambush set up by Faragists? Maybe.

    • Agree: Hibernian
  45. Leftist conservative [AKA "corporate slave wandering down fluorescent hallway"] says: • Website
    @Pittsburgh Thatcherite
    Existing nations, including the European Union, are too large.

    Instead of dozens of large nations, humanity would be better served by hundreds of small nations.

    Small nations are less vulnerable to corruption than large nations.

    Citizens of a small nation are less tolerant of a corrupt leader, because his actions have a great impact on their lives.

    There is less incentive to bribe the leader of a small nation, because there is less wealth to be stolen from a small nation than from a large nation.

    In other words, a small nation has a more responsive feedback loop than a large nation.

    A nation should be connected to other nations by free trade and small numbers of exceptional immigrants, not by completely open borders.

    agree–smaller nations serve the citizens better.

    And larger nations serve plutocrats and big corporations better.

    Why?

    Larger nations have diversity in geography. The voting districts are larger and therefore more diverse. Smaller districts, less diversity. In general.

    Why does the Establishment love diversity in all forms, be it race, color, creed, nationality or geography?

    Because diversity divides and does not unite the populace.

    Thus a more diverse populace is less able to unite and control the government, which allows plutocrats and corporations free rein. Diversity is strength…for those at the top.

    A large EU voting district, similar to a large american federal voting district, is less unified and cohesive than smaller voting districts. So the establishment can have free rein.

    As for why richard spencer/radix has gone pro-EU, perhaps he got a donation from a pro-EU donor?

  46. I agree with a couple of other posters that it’s very likely that the British government would simply ignore a Brexit result, citing a change in government (which may occur before the exit would be finalized), worse-then-expected negotiations with the EU, a recession, a terrorist attack, the migrant crisis, or any number of other lame excuses:

    https://rightwise.org/2016/06/20/dont-be-surprised-if-the-u-k-government-ignores-a-brexit-vote/

    I don’t think it will pass anyway. A wasted opportunity. Between this vote and a likely Trump loss, 2016 might go down as the failure of the last opportunities to stop, or slow, the march of socialism in the West.

    • Replies: @27 year old
    >2016 might go down as the failure of the last opportunities to stop, or slow, the march of socialism in the West.

    Oh yeah, the problem is "socialism", that's what we need to stop...

    ...


    Riiight...

    Hey, tell you what, when you get out to Galt's Gulch and you're safe from all that eeevil socialism, you can endorse your social security checks over to me and I'll take your 30 years of back mortgage interest tax deductions too.

    , @Leftist conservative

    I don’t think it will pass anyway. A wasted opportunity. Between this vote and a likely Trump loss, 2016 might go down as the failure of the last opportunities to stop, or slow, the march of socialism in the West.
     
    True, perhaps. But this is a movement in progress. Populist nationalist vote opportunies have been defeated several times recently. But we are making progress. Where were we 10 years ago? Nowhere.

    Where will we be 10 years from now? I predict that we are headed for an Article 5 convention of the state legislatures eventually. The sooner the better. it will happen. That is really the end game of nationalism in america.
  47. @al gore rhythms
    I agree. It's a mistake to transplant the white nationalism of America onto Europe which still has particular ethnic identities which seem to have a depth and emotional pull that 'whiteness' has not yet proved itself to have in America. In fact I do wonder if the 'white guilt' religion of white American liberals is an attempt to try and fill this void with what amounts to a new basis for a shared sense of history and common future of white Americans.

    The EU is a utopian dream just as the soviet union was. Totalitarian societies are created by the kind of leftist idealists who are dangerous because they have such a high regard for their own idealism and moral goodness that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction because they trust so deeply in the goodness of their own instincts, just like Angela Merkel and her 'if I can't do this it's not the Germany I know' approach to re-writing German immigration law--the liberal version of the 'Fuhrer principle' if you will. Such are the people that govern the EU. If you accept the logic of one-Europe government you will also probably accept the logic of one world government, and the steamrollering of all race, culture, family, religious and moral difference that will come in its wake and which will be enforced with ruthless piety.

    So I'm voting to leave to put a spoke in the wheel of international capital and left wing religious utopianism.

    There is no American white nationalism of any significance which ties in nicely with the rest of your sentence.

    • Replies: @SFG
    There's no American white nationalism of any significance...it's still a pretty downscale brand. But plenty of American white people are sick of political correctness, where no race except whites can be insulted. I'm not sure how many of Milo's fans are ready or even eligible to join Christian Identity. But...keep watching. There might be a hardcore 10% of the country's population that goes WN in a decade or so. You might see gangs, etc. trying to take Idaho by attacking nonwhites who enter (not that Detroit's a safe place to visit for white people either!) I could even see a white homeland somewhere in the Mountain West.

    I suspect it will be run horribly (though better than Detroit or New Orleans) because it won't be able to attract the right sort of safety-minded, anal-retentive white people, but that's just me.

  48. @Uncle Peregrine
    Most of Britain's trade is currently with Europe. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/ I'm not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.

    Most of Britain’s trade is currently with Europe.

    And it will continue to be, after Brexit. Its not like the UK is going to cease trading with Western and much of Central Europe, just because they are no longer part of the EU. That might be what fear-mongering Remainers wish us to believe, but its absurd.

    • Agree: Travis
  49. If Soros wants Britain to remain, that’s enough reason to leave.

  50. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @al gore rhythms
    I agree. Richard Spencer's White nationalism is a product of the European melting pot of America, but there is no evidence that it is particular or culturally specific enough to be able to create a deep-rooted sense of identity that tugs at the heart in the way that being English or French does. In fact I sometimes wonder whether the 'white guilt' religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities. But whether that is the case or not, it is a mistake to transplant the racial situation of the New World onto Europe, which, while there are paralells, is also quite different.

    In reality the EU is bad for whites and bad for European civilisation. One only has to look at the enemies ranged against the Brexit vote--Obama, Merkel, the IMF. It's like a who's who of ISteve.

    The EU is a Utopian dream, as was the Soviet Union. Totalitarian societies are created by people who, like Merkel with her refugees--'if I can't do this then this isn't my Germany' believe so strongly in the goodness of their own feelings and instincts that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction that stands in their way. If you accept the logic of the EU then you will probably accept the logic of a one world government and the steamrollering of race, culture, family, and morality that this will carry in its wake by those who will will enfore their rule with ruthless piety. For me a world stripped of all the glorious quirks of human culture for the sake of global capital and leftist religion is a nightmare not a fantasy. It's like wanting to see all the rainforests and all its natural wonders pulled up and covered in tarmac. I want the globalists to lose, and it can't come soon enough.

    So I'm voting to leave.

    This is one of the most spot-on, eloquent comments I’ve ever read on this site. I plan to steal phrases like “people who believe so strongly in the goodness of their own feelings and instincts that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction that stands in their way.” What a perfect description of the progressives I know – neither too harsh nor conspiracy-minded, and wholly accurate.

    And I had never before considered that “white guilt” might actually be a slinking sort of white identity performance for liberals. The ones I know never miss an opportunity to say something like, “well that’s because everyone here is white” and then laugh desperately, and it does sometimes seem as though they’re genuinely seeking some connection but too embarrassed to admit it.

    Thank you for the thoughts.

    • Agree: Kylie
  51. I’ve been expecting all along that Remain would win by a slim majority, similar to the Scottish referendum recently. I am absolutely committed to escaping from the EU, but I just think the referendum was called too soon, before we had achieved significant Parliamentary representation for the Leave camp. Such a vote will always in Britain tend to stick with the status quo, imo, and especially when the leadership hierarchies of all the mainstream political parties are arguing for that.

    But I have been pleasantly surprised by the strong showing of the Leave campaigners in the polls. It seems clear they have won the arguments and shifted opinion. It feels like a cruel dangling of hope, though, for me.

    Whatever the result though, it ends nothing. The goal was never to have, or to win, a referendum. The objective was always, and remains, to escape from the birthing United States of Europe before we are faced with only the options available to Carolinans and Virginians in 1861. There’s a long way to go from even a reasonably strong Leave victory (55%, say) to actually getting out, when the forces against getting out are so powerful and so entrenched in the business, media and political high ground. A referendum result, of course, is not binding on Parliament. And even then of course, having dealt with the priority threat, we have to face the issues of getting out from under US “influence”……

    It won’t be the end, or even the beginning of the end, but it might perhaps be the end of the beginning (to use my favourite political quote yet again).

    Much the same applies, of course, to a defeat for the British patriots, if that is the result tomorrow. The fight goes on, because it must go on. There can be no compromise or acceptance of defeat when the very existence of the nation as an independent entity is at stake.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    I was hoping for a 5% lead for Leave on the eve of the polls, instead we have seen swing back to level pegging, not sure which way it will go now. Afraid the made up scare ongering that the economy would collapse if we left has had too big an effect.

    The other absurdity is Irish nationals and others, Commonwealth as well I believe, are allowed to vote. It could be them who give Remain a win.
    , @NickG
    I've just voted to leave in leafy Surrey.

    Speaking to the butcher whose shop is across from the primary school where the poll is being conducted, he says turnout is much higher than in last year's general election.

    I hope leave wins - because without it there can be no control of immigration, the anti-democratic authoritarian nature of the EU, its intrusion into all corners of life with excessive regulation. Because it is corporatist and a fetter on small and medium businesses. Because the concept is obsolete, and because of its rank patronising arrogance. I also think it is dangerous - that on current trajectory it will lead to nasty sectarian strife and a Brexit, likely followed by Swedish and Danish exit too, is the best way to de-fang this authoritarian monster.

    The Joe Cox murder and wall-to-wall Lady Di-esque publicity together with the shameless and cynical shroud waving may, I fear, have tipped it for remain. But I'm hoping desperately for a leave majority, but I fear this is wishful thinking on my part.

    One thing is for sure, whichever way it goes, the argument is not over.

    Should remain win. The EU article 50 invocation process which is set to take 2 yrs, is the natural step forward though I doubt it will be invoked immediately. And there will likely be a 2-5 year negotiation, with many opportunities to weasel out of. The EU and our political leaders have much form in this regard.

    If remain wins, there is massive anger in the shires amongst the membership of the Tory party, who are overwhelmingly for leave, towards the leadership of the Tory party and the way they have conducted this campaign. I suspect we may see some blow back.

    For those interested, it's worth looking at the 12 min speech by Tory Euro MP Daniel Hannan recently at the Oxford Union.
  52. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    I would counter that the EU is not only anti-nationalist but also hostile to indigenous Europeans. The machinery of the EU is designed to break down national barriers and blur individual European identities by bringing in non-Europeans and mixing up the different European ethnicities the best they can. I hope that the UK exits the EU and this causes a domino effect where other nations break away until the EU finally crumbles. I don’t see this happening, call me cynical (and I hope I’m wrong), but I think the vote will be rigged. The political elite has a lot riding on this experiment.

    A united Europe of course can be a great thing, but this Union is dangerous to Europeans as a whole. Especially with people like Merkel and Junker in charge.

  53. There is a certain irony, I think, in the fact that mass immigration from outside the EU, in the end, might prove to have been (hopefully) the final downfall of the Eurocrats. (Whichever way this particular vote goes, I think the resurgence of nationalist politics in Europe will hopefully eventually do for the EU project, one way or the other).

    Free movement within the EU is a necessary part of their superstate project, but there’s nothing driving their dogmatic (and positively demonic, imo) insistence on backing mass migration from other continents except their own antiracist and internationalist ideologies. British moaning about Poles and central European complaints about gypsies, etc, would in itself probably have been containable. If they’d been a little more pragmatic and cynical (Lord knows, they are certainly cynical enough on other issues and in other ways), they might have gotten away with it.

    Perhaps it really was just sheer arrogance.

  54. I will venture a prediction that the age of cynicism has drawn to a close and we all don’t know it yet. Brexit wins by a comfortable (i.e. unexpectedly large) margin. Global stock markets initially take a big hit but soothing tones emanating from Yellen and Draghi coax them back into the sideways channel that they’ve been plowing through for the last two and a half years. For the time being, and for several months into the future, nothing much else seems to change. There’s a lot of inertia in the system and no one, not even those in favor of the Brexit, know quite how to adjust to the new reality.

    Those of us who support Trump should take careful note of this. Trump will win, but initially nothing will seem to change. The effects of these massive, narrative-shifting events will take years to manifest. It will be very difficult for we who are part of these processes to understanding them in the offing, for we ourselves are the events.

    And let’s not forget my first (variously formulated) iron rule of sociology: All true social change is fundamentally driven, but fundamentally driven social changes take much longer to eventuate than originally supposed.

  55. @Neoconned
    Stupid idea. A better solution would be keep the Euro and have a coalition of pan European anti immigration parties running the European system.

    Europeans moving from nation to nation is a good idea - it's all the ppl smugglers and the "refugees" who are ruining a pan European system that used to work quite well.

    Even if they leave the EU.....it doesn't mean immigration restrictionists will seize power in parliament. The g lobalists in London could still kick the hothouse door open to immigration and refugees.

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian. They're preferable to the Hindu-islamic hordes coming from the third world slums.....

    Brexit would close the door to trade between European nations but wouldn't necessarily ban African or Islamic immigration to the U.K.

    The British who delude themselves into thinking they "aeuropean" ignore history and believe in Anglo cultural nonsense with no roots in western history.

    Europe should be composed of independent nations that can continue to function even if any single nation self-destructs.

    A Europe of independent nations is much less likely to experience a continent-wide catastrophic failure than a single European superstate.

  56. Steve, any thoughts on Michael Jackson’s recently uncovered porn collection?

  57. @Neoconned
    Stupid idea. A better solution would be keep the Euro and have a coalition of pan European anti immigration parties running the European system.

    Europeans moving from nation to nation is a good idea - it's all the ppl smugglers and the "refugees" who are ruining a pan European system that used to work quite well.

    Even if they leave the EU.....it doesn't mean immigration restrictionists will seize power in parliament. The g lobalists in London could still kick the hothouse door open to immigration and refugees.

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian. They're preferable to the Hindu-islamic hordes coming from the third world slums.....

    Brexit would close the door to trade between European nations but wouldn't necessarily ban African or Islamic immigration to the U.K.

    The British who delude themselves into thinking they "aeuropean" ignore history and believe in Anglo cultural nonsense with no roots in western history.

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian.

    Do the Brits dislike Romanians? Or do the Brits dislike Gypsies from Romania?

    • Replies: @Neoconned
    I dunno but I imagine they're preferable to the slum hordes of Dehli and Lagos.

    It's kinda like choosing between your trailer trash relations and the loud Puerto Ricans who stay up night playing salsa music and drinking beer.
    , @everyday feminist
    One day I asked my Romanian boss (at a transnational organization much demonized in these pages) if gypsies were as bad as I've heard and he said that they were worse.
    , @Daniel H
    Condemnation and dislike of "Romanians" in Britain (and Ireland) is common, but of course the condemned are not Romanian, they are Gypsies. This is not dog whistling, it is something else. It is forbidden by the PC police to reveal how unpleasant Gypsies (and Arabs, and Pakistanis) are, but it is alright to condemn Romanians and Poles because they are white Christians. The psychology of the SJW is a very sick place.
  58. @AndrewR
    Can you sum up his argument? Don't really feel like finding it.

    Personally I think he falls victim to the very common WN bad habit of underestimating intra-"white" rivalries and enmities. This is understandable to a degree given the high amount of ethnic and cultural mixing in the US (most Americans have extremely little understanding of or connection to their ancestral cultures unless they are first or second (and some third) generation immigrants). Hell, most people couldn't even tell you their specific ethnic backgrounds.

    My understanding of Spencer is he basically figures look, this whole power structure exists, why destroy it when we could use it? He believes that Europeans are going to need international cooperative organization to protect themselves from non-White invasion. If not right this minute, they’re going to need it eventually given the non-White population explosion. So he envisions a pan-White-nationalist EU, to keep the invaders out, protect the markets, keep tabs on marxists and issuing decrees supporting traditional values. Instead of faggy globalist shills and diversity hires having cushy paper pushing jobs in Brussels, it could be a bunch of shitlords with cushy paper pushing jobs in Brussels.

    I have mixed thoughts. On the one hand it’s a really nice vision. On the other hand, Europeans have blood-and-soil nationalism already, so why go from easy rhetoric like “German for Germans” to some abstract thing about re-configuring the EU? Plus, opposing the EU has been a winning issue for nationalist parties, and they need to win in order to have any hope of changing the EU in a pro-White direction.

  59. @Thin-Skinned Masta-Beta
    Britain shouldn't be given the opportunity to exit on their own, they should be politely ejected by the rest of Europe.

    Rather than trying to make its case while being part of team Europe, Britain has shown that if it can't get its way it takes its ball and goes home. Their uncompromising attitude ruins whatever great potential to take the mantle of leadership there might have been. Whether the Euro currency, Schengen zone, social and employment regulation or foreign policy, Britain has shown that if it can't have its way entirely it will just "opt out." So what is the point of them having a voice at the table if they refuse to use it? What is the point of the rest of Europe accommodating British intransigence and obstruction of the realization of European projects?

    It's unfortunate that Europe finds itself in such a moment of disunity and lack of vision. The most recent history of economic crisis, hegira immivasion and terror should highlight the shared western secular and Christian values that unite the people of European nations. Rather than focusing on the shared values and collective solutions, national leaders have retreated to national politics and catastrophic fractured national measures, such as the invitation of the Merkel youth.

    If Britain narrowly decides to remain tomorrow, European leaders may regret their vigorous efforts to encourage them to vote to stay because British citizens will have shown they are divided and unenthusiastic members of the European project. No matter the outcome of this vote, there will still be years of uncertainty about their role in Europe.

    What could be a civil divorce will sadly remain an unhappy marriage.

    If remain wins, no matter how narrowly, British elites will give no fucks about any lingering anti-EU sentiments and will right the fuck back to business as usual.

  60. @EdwardM
    I agree with a couple of other posters that it's very likely that the British government would simply ignore a Brexit result, citing a change in government (which may occur before the exit would be finalized), worse-then-expected negotiations with the EU, a recession, a terrorist attack, the migrant crisis, or any number of other lame excuses:

    https://rightwise.org/2016/06/20/dont-be-surprised-if-the-u-k-government-ignores-a-brexit-vote/

    I don't think it will pass anyway. A wasted opportunity. Between this vote and a likely Trump loss, 2016 might go down as the failure of the last opportunities to stop, or slow, the march of socialism in the West.

    >2016 might go down as the failure of the last opportunities to stop, or slow, the march of socialism in the West.

    Oh yeah, the problem is “socialism”, that’s what we need to stop…

    Riiight…

    Hey, tell you what, when you get out to Galt’s Gulch and you’re safe from all that eeevil socialism, you can endorse your social security checks over to me and I’ll take your 30 years of back mortgage interest tax deductions too.

    • Replies: @EdwardM
    I am under 40 and, having worked most of my life overseas, haven't paid much into social security (but still have had most of my income subject to federal taxation). I have also never had a mortgage. That is, I am just a typical single middle-class white guy who gets the least from our government relative to what I put in.

    I would gladly sign over the miniscule Social Security that I am set to receive, if the system is still operating then, in exchange for eliminating the program, say for everyone under 30, with phased ramp-downs for people 30-50, starting today. (I agree that we can't renege for people who have been paying in their whole lives.)

    But this thread is about Brexit and the U.K. is more socialist than we are, and getting more so all the time, especially if Brexit fails.

  61. @George
    All major decisions are made by NATO, so I don't think Brexit from the irrelevant EU will change anything. On balance the UK might see less border cooperation from France so if the migrants in Calais get out of control France might help them find transport to the newly non EU Britain.

    Exactly, you can’t leave the EU without leaving NATO. And the only way to leave NATO is “manu militari “, i. e. with the force of arms.
    Having said that, if they allow Brexit to happen, it will be good news for Britain.

    • Replies: @random observer
    Why can't you leave the EU without leaving NATO? There's no precedent for leaving either, yet, but certainly no evidence for the proposition that leaving one means leaving the other. They aren't that closely integrated and there are still countries that are members of either without being in the other.
  62. SFG says:
    @iffen
    There is no American white nationalism of any significance which ties in nicely with the rest of your sentence.

    There’s no American white nationalism of any significance…it’s still a pretty downscale brand. But plenty of American white people are sick of political correctness, where no race except whites can be insulted. I’m not sure how many of Milo’s fans are ready or even eligible to join Christian Identity. But…keep watching. There might be a hardcore 10% of the country’s population that goes WN in a decade or so. You might see gangs, etc. trying to take Idaho by attacking nonwhites who enter (not that Detroit’s a safe place to visit for white people either!) I could even see a white homeland somewhere in the Mountain West.

    I suspect it will be run horribly (though better than Detroit or New Orleans) because it won’t be able to attract the right sort of safety-minded, anal-retentive white people, but that’s just me.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "I’m not sure how many of Milo’s fans are ready or even eligible to join Christian Identity."

    Did you see Milo make out with Gavin in front of a Muslim mosque in Orlando?
    , @Jefferson
    "There might be a hardcore 10% of the country’s population that goes WN in a decade or so. You might see gangs, etc. trying to take Idaho by attacking nonwhites who enter"

    Literally any Nonwhite who enters? They will not hesitate put a gang beat down on a 90 year old Chinese lady for example?

    Will Adolf Hitler's birthday be a national holiday in this Stormfront WN nation?

    I imagine this nation will mostly be a sausage fest. There is no way half of the population is going to be women.

    Nazi skinhead ideology mostly attracts men.

    Also it will be the poorest White country in the world, because it will mostly attract the White trash underclass.

  63. I don’t fancy the poorly-concealed European Army project much. Like Rome, the obvious game would be to station legions of troublesome and impoverished tribal levies in the territories of adversaries.
    How about Serbian regiments (they’ll get Accession, don’t you worry) billeted on the Home Counties, to prevent anyone being nasty to the Strasbourgian Branch Office in former Whitehall/Westminster? It’s only Fair, they ain’t got no proper jobs, and the Brits owe them because NATO bombing or something. Or Turks (does anyone believe the toss about “not in for thirty years”?). With German officers?
    If Jim fixes my car by tomorrow, I might tool up to town and drop my “Out” vote in the correct bin. Some people (not me) are so paranoid after “Project Fear II” they’re taking ballpoints in, to over or under-write the officially required lead-pencil crosses. Dunno if that would make it a spoiled ballot or not.

    • Replies: @Thomas Fuller
    I went to vote this morning and asked the adjudicator if it was OK to use a ballpoint pen instead of the supplied pencil-on-a-string. He looked surprised and rather indignant at this impugning of the establishment, but said a pen would be fine as long as the cross was 'in the box' (i.e. inside the appropriate box on the ballot paper). A friend of mine planned to use a thick felt-tip pen, but I cautioned him that a bleed-through might render his ballot paper invalid!

    In other elections, the ballot papers are numbered and cross-referenced to one's number on the electoral roll. The authorities thus have, in theory at least, the ability to create lists of who voted for whom, which always struck me as sinister. I could not find any sign of such cross-referencing today and conclude that, if the result is to be fixed, offending Leave votes will simply go down the memory hole rather than be erased and remade.

    There is too much at stake, and the British people are too trusting, for this referendum to be conducted honestly. Anecdotal evidence suggests a strong majority for Leave; but the bookies' odds have been influenced by relatively few, unusually large bets for Remain. The bookies have an influence on sentiment almost as great as that of the polling companies, none of whom can be trusted. I predict a narrow 'majority' will be engineered for Remain, narrow enough to silence most of those who might object.

    And if such proves to be the case, that is the end of democracy in Britain.

  64. @John Derbyshire
    Not cynical enough.

    http://tinyurl.com/zvqnxna

    I’ll see your cynicism and raise you my cynicism.

  65. Prediction: the Remain side will win by the margin of fraud. Do they have mail-in ballots for this? I’d wager that Brexit wins at the polls but mail-in ballots are 75-25 against.

    Alternately, given the poor predictions for the Tory Party’s smashing victory, Brexit may do far better than what pollsters predict.

    Also, has anyone else noticed the almost complete absence of Syrian refugee stories in the news the last few weeks?

  66. @iSteveFan

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian.
     
    Do the Brits dislike Romanians? Or do the Brits dislike Gypsies from Romania?

    I dunno but I imagine they’re preferable to the slum hordes of Dehli and Lagos.

    It’s kinda like choosing between your trailer trash relations and the loud Puerto Ricans who stay up night playing salsa music and drinking beer.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    I dunno but I imagine they’re preferable to the slum hordes of Dehli and Lagos.
     
    The Derb has observed in the past that the "slum hordes from Delhi," i.e. Indian Hindus are assimilating well into middle-class British society, at least economically. He mentioned something about first gen types in Porsches heading off to their investment banking jobs in the City. Indian migration seems to have tapered off in the early 1970s, perhaps after rumors got back about beatings by skinheads? I'm no expert, but that's my impression from reading about it.

    On the other hand, the current problem is that it's the slum hordes from Islamabad, i.e. Pakistani Muslims, who are refusing to assimilate, and routinely import brides, three generations on, from the ancestral farmlands. That seems to be the kernel of the insoluble problem.
  67. @al gore rhythms
    I agree. Richard Spencer's White nationalism is a product of the European melting pot of America, but there is no evidence that it is particular or culturally specific enough to be able to create a deep-rooted sense of identity that tugs at the heart in the way that being English or French does. In fact I sometimes wonder whether the 'white guilt' religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities. But whether that is the case or not, it is a mistake to transplant the racial situation of the New World onto Europe, which, while there are paralells, is also quite different.

    In reality the EU is bad for whites and bad for European civilisation. One only has to look at the enemies ranged against the Brexit vote--Obama, Merkel, the IMF. It's like a who's who of ISteve.

    The EU is a Utopian dream, as was the Soviet Union. Totalitarian societies are created by people who, like Merkel with her refugees--'if I can't do this then this isn't my Germany' believe so strongly in the goodness of their own feelings and instincts that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction that stands in their way. If you accept the logic of the EU then you will probably accept the logic of a one world government and the steamrollering of race, culture, family, and morality that this will carry in its wake by those who will will enfore their rule with ruthless piety. For me a world stripped of all the glorious quirks of human culture for the sake of global capital and leftist religion is a nightmare not a fantasy. It's like wanting to see all the rainforests and all its natural wonders pulled up and covered in tarmac. I want the globalists to lose, and it can't come soon enough.

    So I'm voting to leave.

    In fact I sometimes wonder whether the ‘white guilt’ religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities.

    I believe this is correct. In the heretical post-Christian religious fervor that fuels all leftist sects, the ‘Other’ is a pawn, a prop employed in rituals of virtue-signalling and assertion of superiority over unenlightened fellow-white rubes and proles. Only good SWPLs/SJWs possess both moral agency and the essentially gnostic ‘true knowledge’ of what’s Good and Right, so their words and actions are aimed at building up and advertising their identity, i.e. as the culmination of human development — and as the saviors of the Other.

    • Replies: @Honorary Thief
    Your mention of the nature of the post-Christian left begs the question of what the post-Christian right will look like. My suspicion is that it will necessarily be racialist and eugenicist, along Madison Grant/Lothrop Stoddard lines. We've seen a bit of that in this election, with Trump dominating among non-Evangelical Republican voters (the nascent irreligious right). I wonder if Trump's success is as much a tale of the decline of religion as any of the other explanations put forth so far.
  68. OT
    I finally watched Trump’s speech this evening and my impression is that he was a rich guy playing ball, rubbing elbows with the elite, then he got fed up. Just absolutely fed up.
    Maybe because he now has grandkids, it seems that after all the BS he heard at cocktail parties he realized there was no future for the US with the status quo in charge, all that would be left would be a desicated husk…
    I think because he knows Hillary personally, he absolutely hates her guts.

  69. @SFG
    There's no American white nationalism of any significance...it's still a pretty downscale brand. But plenty of American white people are sick of political correctness, where no race except whites can be insulted. I'm not sure how many of Milo's fans are ready or even eligible to join Christian Identity. But...keep watching. There might be a hardcore 10% of the country's population that goes WN in a decade or so. You might see gangs, etc. trying to take Idaho by attacking nonwhites who enter (not that Detroit's a safe place to visit for white people either!) I could even see a white homeland somewhere in the Mountain West.

    I suspect it will be run horribly (though better than Detroit or New Orleans) because it won't be able to attract the right sort of safety-minded, anal-retentive white people, but that's just me.

    “I’m not sure how many of Milo’s fans are ready or even eligible to join Christian Identity.”

    Did you see Milo make out with Gavin in front of a Muslim mosque in Orlando?

  70. @John Derbyshire
    Not cynical enough.

    Right! (Or in your case, Bloody well right!) And Trump will never be permitted to be the Republican nominee.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Don't be silly. Of course Trump will be GOP nominee! Even the fact that people believe this crap shows the power of Megaphone.
  71. @Neoconned
    That would be the UKIPs downfall.

    There's a term "front" for a coalition of left-wing parties with disparate interests. Not all immigration restrictionists are right wing much less racists or neo Nazi types.

    I consider myself a social democrat like Bernie but I'd be willing to join a coalition of anti immigration parties dfrom the right because immigration is more important an issue to jobs and wage security than even taxation or regulations because supply and demand of labor dictates union power and job stability.

    There needs to be a pan-European front of immigration restriction parties and past early 20th century definitions of "left vs right"

    I consider myself a social democrat like Bernie

    Move to Venezuela. We don’t need leftism here. And take the Bern with you.

  72. @SFG
    There's no American white nationalism of any significance...it's still a pretty downscale brand. But plenty of American white people are sick of political correctness, where no race except whites can be insulted. I'm not sure how many of Milo's fans are ready or even eligible to join Christian Identity. But...keep watching. There might be a hardcore 10% of the country's population that goes WN in a decade or so. You might see gangs, etc. trying to take Idaho by attacking nonwhites who enter (not that Detroit's a safe place to visit for white people either!) I could even see a white homeland somewhere in the Mountain West.

    I suspect it will be run horribly (though better than Detroit or New Orleans) because it won't be able to attract the right sort of safety-minded, anal-retentive white people, but that's just me.

    “There might be a hardcore 10% of the country’s population that goes WN in a decade or so. You might see gangs, etc. trying to take Idaho by attacking nonwhites who enter”

    Literally any Nonwhite who enters? They will not hesitate put a gang beat down on a 90 year old Chinese lady for example?

    Will Adolf Hitler’s birthday be a national holiday in this Stormfront WN nation?

    I imagine this nation will mostly be a sausage fest. There is no way half of the population is going to be women.

    Nazi skinhead ideology mostly attracts men.

    Also it will be the poorest White country in the world, because it will mostly attract the White trash underclass.

    • Replies: @JSM
    Poorest White country? Sure. Cleanest and safest, too? Yep.

    Sausage fest? For a while, 'til us women get there, running as fast as we can to escape the Diversity Utopia.

    And, what's so bad about sausage fests? The Wild West is a source of rollicking stories for that very reason. As soon as us women showed up and started forming committees, all the fun dried up.

    --- Oh, and as you are scaling the wall surrounding Stormfront WN nation to get *IN*, do try to adopt an expression of humility.

  73. Leftist conservative [AKA "corporate slave wandering down fluorescent hallway"] says: • Website
    @EdwardM
    I agree with a couple of other posters that it's very likely that the British government would simply ignore a Brexit result, citing a change in government (which may occur before the exit would be finalized), worse-then-expected negotiations with the EU, a recession, a terrorist attack, the migrant crisis, or any number of other lame excuses:

    https://rightwise.org/2016/06/20/dont-be-surprised-if-the-u-k-government-ignores-a-brexit-vote/

    I don't think it will pass anyway. A wasted opportunity. Between this vote and a likely Trump loss, 2016 might go down as the failure of the last opportunities to stop, or slow, the march of socialism in the West.

    I don’t think it will pass anyway. A wasted opportunity. Between this vote and a likely Trump loss, 2016 might go down as the failure of the last opportunities to stop, or slow, the march of socialism in the West.

    True, perhaps. But this is a movement in progress. Populist nationalist vote opportunies have been defeated several times recently. But we are making progress. Where were we 10 years ago? Nowhere.

    Where will we be 10 years from now? I predict that we are headed for an Article 5 convention of the state legislatures eventually. The sooner the better. it will happen. That is really the end game of nationalism in america.

    • Replies: @EdwardM
    I hope you're right but I am not optimistic. I guess you can say that we are farther than we were ten years ago in seeing the light, but that's only because the darkness has forced us to be. I am not sure if the shocks to our society were worth it -- our national debt is more than double what it was then, cultural Marxism is more entrenched, and we saw fit to elect the farthest left president ever. A half a generation of millenials has been indoctrinated. Perhaps we could say that all of this was necessary to pave the way for Trump, but it's a tough pill to swallow that we have had to drive even farther off the cliff to prove that we should tap the brakes on the car.

    As for an Article V convention, I am very wary of that. Most Americans don't support capitalism or free speech, and even gun rights are a close call. I worry that if these consensuses are put into action, the result will be worse than what we have now -- perhaps much worse if the left hijacks such a convention, as they are skilled at doing.

    More thoughts on the convention here: https://rightwise.org/2014/05/01/conservatives-calling-for-a-constitutional-convention-be-careful-what-you-wish-for/
  74. @melendwyr
    In the EU, crops that were not on a list of approved varieties were forbidden. It takes a considerable amount of money to get a vegetable variety on that list, so anything people aren't willing to shell out huge amounts of money for cannot be sold.

    And when I say "cannot be sold", I mean that gardening businesses that sold old 'heirloom' and open-pollinated varieties were raided by armed men wearing body armor and carrying assault weapons. Because they were selling types of beans and peas and rutabagas that weren't approved.

    These weren't foreign plants being brought across national borders, these were old and familiar vegetables that had been grown for decades if not centuries and posed no conceivable risk to anyone. All those gardeners were turned into criminals.

    I don't understand why the British thought entering the EU was a good idea, and I have no idea why they'd think leaving wasn't the obvious choice. They should regain their own sovereignty in all matters, from immigration to what sorts of seeds should be sold, and scrap trying to centrally plan their economy.

    I mean that gardening businesses that sold old ‘heirloom’ and open-pollinated varieties were raided by armed men wearing body armor and carrying assault weapons.

    Social democrats. But it demonstrates the rai·son d’ê·tre for the 2nd Amendment.

  75. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    Richard Spencer and the Alt Right in a Nutshell:

    • Replies: @Hepp
    Lol, that's funny. Who's the gay guy they keep going back to talking about how he's attracted to men?
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    Good looking women on the Alt Right.
  76. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    I imagine that’s his position yes but the EU argument isn’t really about separate nationalisms vs white nationalism – although that is part of it – the EU is a globalist project from top to bottom and it’s aim is the destruction of the European nation states by destroying the underlying nations and it can’t be reformed from within to change it to an alliance of nation states in the time we have left.

    It has to be brought down first with the constituent nations regaining nationalist govts and *then* build an EU of nation states.

  77. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3654246/Mob-violence-lawless-Paris-Terrifying-video-shows-woman-tourist-viciously-attacked-marauding-youths-city-deserted-police-despite-state-emergency-Euros-rampage.html

    Gee, what silly Brit wouldn’t want these Vibrant “youths” having free movement to their country?

    The EU won’t stop until the last white woman is chased down and “diversified” by a mob of 15 “minorities”

    Apparently this is a common occurrence around tourist destinations of European cities. I don’t have the stomach to youtube it. Our own White Girl Bleed A Lot vids are traumatic enough.

  78. @Uncle Peregrine
    Most of Britain's trade is currently with Europe. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/ I'm not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.

    Globalists always lie.

    80% of trade from Britain goes *through* European ports not *to* Europe.

  79. Remain wins with big margin. Most White British women are like Jo Cox. Can’t get enough Muslims, despise their own men. Margin victory Reain is White women.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    If Remain wins, it will be by a tiny margin, anything else would look highly suspicious.
  80. I suspect virtually all of the undecided voters will break for Remain, with a 53% Remain showing. Even if Leave wins, the referendum is not binding on a parliament where every party with more than one MP has a strongly Remain leadership. So a Leave victory would be followed by a Conservative Party leadership contest, the winner of which will be the prime minister who goes to Brussels, presents demands for various reforms, and declares that whatever tepid response those demands elicit represent a total victory for British nationalism. The Tory press will say that the premier is the new Alfred the Great, the left-wing press will fret that Britain may have pushed Europe too far, and the public will lose interest in the European question for a while.

  81. @Neoconned
    Stupid idea. A better solution would be keep the Euro and have a coalition of pan European anti immigration parties running the European system.

    Europeans moving from nation to nation is a good idea - it's all the ppl smugglers and the "refugees" who are ruining a pan European system that used to work quite well.

    Even if they leave the EU.....it doesn't mean immigration restrictionists will seize power in parliament. The g lobalists in London could still kick the hothouse door open to immigration and refugees.

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian. They're preferable to the Hindu-islamic hordes coming from the third world slums.....

    Brexit would close the door to trade between European nations but wouldn't necessarily ban African or Islamic immigration to the U.K.

    The British who delude themselves into thinking they "aeuropean" ignore history and believe in Anglo cultural nonsense with no roots in western history.

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing.

    Roma. The media won’t say that because of PC so they say Romanian instead.

    (Roma > Romanian in PC victim hierarchy)

    • Replies: @Lurker
    I'm sure most people who've had any contact with Romanians and Roma are crystal clear on the realities. But sadly the media still continue to talk about 'Romanians' when they really mean Roma.
    , @Fredrik
    That could have been true if it wasn't for the vilification of Polish workers.

    I agree that everyone needs to separate between Romanians and Gypsies but it's the English that don't want to. Too bad.

    I don't particularly like the EU but I dislike the English press and their lies even more. Most of what they say EU (or Jean-Claude Juncker) say/want are lies or misrepresentations of the actual message. I also dislike "Project Fear" because Leave are quite good at reading the press and then interpreting everything the most hysterical way possible.

    Just take Turkey and the agreement with them. What's been discussed is visa free travel to the EU. It's bad but it's not a membership. There are membership discussions with Turkey but they will never succeed. The real sick part of the Leave arguments is that Britain is Turkey's biggest fan in the EU.

    Another problem with Leave is that we know what they're against but not what they're for. A lot of people on the European continent interpret parts of the Leave message as positive for White nationalists. I disagree due to that the migration discussion is about European workers, not about yet another person from the sub-continent. Non-EU immigration is higher than EU immigration but only one of these worries the English.

    I can live with both Remain and Leave.

    , @ben tillman

    Roma. The media won’t say that because of PC so they say Romanian instead.

    (Roma > Romanian in PC victim hierarchy)
     
    "Roma" itself is a PC replacement for "Gipsy" or "Gypsy".
  82. @27 year old
    If Britain leaves, will Scotland then try again to leave Britain?

    yes

    (which is good imo, globalists are currently holding all the cards so the more the system is stressed the better)

  83. @iSteveFan

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian.
     
    Do the Brits dislike Romanians? Or do the Brits dislike Gypsies from Romania?

    One day I asked my Romanian boss (at a transnational organization much demonized in these pages) if gypsies were as bad as I’ve heard and he said that they were worse.

  84. @Tiny Duck
    Brevity supporters ate exclusively comprised of old scared white people.

    Also, EU membership ensures prosperity, diversity, trade, and border equity

    Remain will win

    “Also, EU membership ensures prosperity, diversity, trade, and border equity”

    The Duck likes it, Soros likes it, and the Economist likes it. I think it’s clear that EU membership is not in Britain’s best interest. Judging by one’s enemies is amazing shorthand.

  85. @Daniel Williams

    But honestly, I have no real idea what the best thing for the UK is.
     
    Me either. But looking at the people arguing against Brexit, it's hard not to hope it will happen.

    Yeah, it may be good or bad policy, but at least it gives a lot of overpromoted elites heartburn.

  86. If Brexit fails, the EU will try and make the (erstwhile) UK give Ulster to Ireland as a species of revenge…

  87. @Expletive Deleted
    Biggest non-event of the century since Y2K itself. Simply won't be permitted. Too many already filthy-rich fingers in the pie.
    I call a tiny Remain victory, amounting to little more than the number of postal votes over 50/50. Particularly after the martydom of St Jo.
    If the "wrong" result is returned, the EU will ask for a re-run. They have form on this. And even an outright Brexit vote could be filibustered and ignored by the current Westminster regime (all colours of tie). Not binding, or however they like to phrase it.
    Business as usual. Either way a win for the bankers and troughers. Schism of Conservative Party now its eternal civil war over Europe is out in the open. Splits in two. Labour working class (nb! not the posh people who run the parliamentary party) defects to UKIP-like nationalist faction, mirroring Scotland and the SNP, minus the porridge-socialism, the rump goes full Inner party, Greens, internationalist class warriors. Conceivably realigns SDP style with the Cameronista soft-left remains of the Tory party and any Libdems who might still exist.
    Whoever wins, resulting economic chaos associated with impending global financial crisis (which is bearing down regardless of what goes on on some silly little Atlantic offshore reef) blamed on Brexiteers, not globalists, huzzah!. Additional power grabs and confiscation of assets by EU in exchange for bailouts.

    Alternate possibility. Brexit wins. From the point of view of the EU and their allies this is potentially serious as this in only one in a number of weaknesses that are showing up in the EU (Le Pen, the migrant crisis, Victor Orban) .

    They will need to make an example of the UK, the will do everything they can to destroy it. Cameron could actually use this to his advantage if he has the guts to do so.

  88. @Expletive Deleted

    I’m not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.
     
    Money-laundering. And nukes.

    Very expensive real estate for sheiks, caliphs, bankers and hedge funders.

  89. They should get out. The Brexit vote is a vote about globalism.

    BTW: Right now the Left us using its tactics to illegally take over our House of Representatives. The globalist, leftist, strong-arm tactics have made their way into our house of legislation, against our will, against the will of The People, who elected the majority Republican house against whom this is directed.

    This all stinks to high heaven.

    Get out now, here, there and everywhere.

  90. @countenance
    I predict that:

    (1) Brexit wins narrowly

    (2) David Cameron will refuse to implement the formal procedures to exit the EU, either:

    (2a) Openly citing the "whiteness" as the Leave electorate and the "rainbow/diverse" nature of the Remain electorate as an excuse, or citing the narrow margin of the Leave win, or citing the Jo Cox murder, or some combination thereof

    or

    (2b) He will, for public consumption, and while engaging in superficial but non-substantive measures, pretend to be exiting the EU, but substantively, not doing so in private and behind the curtains.

    I predict that:

    (1) Brexit wins narrowly

    (2) David Cameron will refuse to implement the formal procedures to exit the EU, either:

    (2a) Openly citing the “whiteness” as the Leave electorate and the “rainbow/diverse” nature of the Remain electorate as an excuse, or citing the narrow margin of the Leave win, or citing the Jo Cox murder, or some combination thereof

    or

    (2b) He will, for public consumption, and while engaging in superficial but non-substantive measures, pretend to be exiting the EU, but substantively, not doing so in private and behind the curtains.

    I too think Remain wins, but if Brexit wins it’ll be 2B followed by 2A from the succeeding Labour government.

  91. @Expletive Deleted
    Biggest non-event of the century since Y2K itself. Simply won't be permitted. Too many already filthy-rich fingers in the pie.
    I call a tiny Remain victory, amounting to little more than the number of postal votes over 50/50. Particularly after the martydom of St Jo.
    If the "wrong" result is returned, the EU will ask for a re-run. They have form on this. And even an outright Brexit vote could be filibustered and ignored by the current Westminster regime (all colours of tie). Not binding, or however they like to phrase it.
    Business as usual. Either way a win for the bankers and troughers. Schism of Conservative Party now its eternal civil war over Europe is out in the open. Splits in two. Labour working class (nb! not the posh people who run the parliamentary party) defects to UKIP-like nationalist faction, mirroring Scotland and the SNP, minus the porridge-socialism, the rump goes full Inner party, Greens, internationalist class warriors. Conceivably realigns SDP style with the Cameronista soft-left remains of the Tory party and any Libdems who might still exist.
    Whoever wins, resulting economic chaos associated with impending global financial crisis (which is bearing down regardless of what goes on on some silly little Atlantic offshore reef) blamed on Brexiteers, not globalists, huzzah!. Additional power grabs and confiscation of assets by EU in exchange for bailouts.

    Biggest non-event of the century since Y2K itself. Simply won’t be permitted. Too many already filthy-rich fingers in the pie.

    I think this is correct.

    • Agree: Travis, PiltdownMan
  92. @Tiny Duck
    Brevity supporters ate exclusively comprised of old scared white people.

    Also, EU membership ensures prosperity, diversity, trade, and border equity

    Remain will win

    “EU membership ensures prosperity, diversity, trade, and border equity”

    LOL. What good is border equity [sic?] when the immivasion is strictly one-way?

  93. @Tiny Duck
    Brevity supporters ate exclusively comprised of old scared white people.

    Also, EU membership ensures prosperity, diversity, trade, and border equity

    Remain will win

    White Man’s Burden

  94. I Wonder what happens if Britain really leaves the EU.
    The worst thing that could happen to the EU is that Britain doesn’t suffer a war or a (zombie) apocalypse as predicted, but instead benefits from the Brexit. Then other countries will surely follow.

    Let’s see if the EU tries to isolate and sabotage Britain in order to discourage other EU-members.

  95. @iSteveFan

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian.
     
    Do the Brits dislike Romanians? Or do the Brits dislike Gypsies from Romania?

    Condemnation and dislike of “Romanians” in Britain (and Ireland) is common, but of course the condemned are not Romanian, they are Gypsies. This is not dog whistling, it is something else. It is forbidden by the PC police to reveal how unpleasant Gypsies (and Arabs, and Pakistanis) are, but it is alright to condemn Romanians and Poles because they are white Christians. The psychology of the SJW is a very sick place.

    • Replies: @pyrrhus
    Yes, I have dealt with the social welfare problems created by Gypsies, and their way of life and treatment of children is disgusting, with substantial levels of sexual abuse...
    , @Lurker
    Exactly. I despise the SJW mindset more every day.
  96. iSteveFan says:

    British readers, as an American I am assuming that the only reason BREXIT won’t win is due to immigration. Is this correct? Will the new immigrants and their descendants be responsible for making the remain side the winner?

    Would a theoretical referendum with only traditional British voters result in a huge victory for BREXIT?

    I know in the US if our demographics were the same as they were 30 years ago, the republicans would win in November in a landslide. But due to changes, they’ll probably lose. Is the same happening in the UK?

    • Replies: @anon
    Yes and no.

    The pro-EU vote is a mixture of a consciously Europhile globalist minority, most immigrants and those natives conned by the media's fear campaign over the economy so yes the immigrant vote is crucial to the Europhiles and extra voters is why they opened the borders *however* personally I think the excessive immigration is why fewer natives are being conned by the scare tactics over the economy than otherwise would be.

    Without immigration I think the native vote might have been say 60/4o in favour of the EU as the media's scare tactics wouldn't have been countered by the problems caused by immigration.

    With immigration it's more like 60/40 for Brexit (among the natives) with the immigrant vote likely to be crucial for the other side.

    So there's a complex two-way balance.
    , @Lurker

    I am assuming that the only reason BREXIT won’t win is due to immigration. Is this correct? Will the new immigrants and their descendants be responsible for making the remain side the winner?
     
    Probably true but lets remember the UK is still 80%+ white British and many immigrants will not be allowed to vote (in theory).

    Would a theoretical referendum with only traditional British voters result in a huge victory for BREXIT?
     
    Almost certainly! I've met far more Leavers than Remainers, so much so that the public position that the split is almost 50/50 looks highly suspect.
  97. I’m rooting for Brexit but it’s obvious that people are using the largely useless issue as a way to project anxieties that can’t really be articulated in their ridiculous society.

    Sorry, but when thousands of minors are being treated as sex-slaves by Pakistani gangs and the socially virtuous thing to do is be silent on the issue and instead advocate for Syrian refugees like Jo Cox did then your society is hopelessly broken.

    • Replies: @anon
    You're correct the society is totally broken, dominated as it is by amoral SJW virtue signalling controlled by the BBC.

    However it's not a useless issue.

    Whatever the outcome, the EU will crack down harder afterwards becoming more totalitarian and stressing the system.

    The only way out of the approaching globalist nightmare is the stress the system to the point where it cracks.
  98. I don’t really care very much one way or the other about whether Europe wishing to merge itself into a federation or not. Occasionally, I fantasise about a giant federation of the Western peoples (it would have a more desireable demographic balance than the United States as of now, but not for long unless they get some sense fast). But it seems to me that it’s a bad idea in principle and probably in practice to do what the EU has been doing: slouching carelessly toward federation and an end to member state sovereignty, without having a clear agenda to do so. The most obvious problems that are caused by this carelessness/dissimulation are the antidemocratic, bureaucratic nature of the European government and, more importantly, the fact that it’s far from clear that the people in the member states want to be united in a federation.

  99. Well there is the Yes, Minister argument that Britannia outside of the EU may have to contend with a united Europe:

  100. @Uncle Peregrine
    Most of Britain's trade is currently with Europe. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/ I'm not sure what they have that the rest of the world wants to buy.

    Europe needs Britain far more than Britain needs Europe–trade will continue, but on better terms for the UK most likely…..Remember, the dead-in-the-water EU wants to destroy the UK financial industry and dump unlimited immigrants on the Brits….

    • Replies: @iSteveFan
    Not only will trade continue, but so to will travel. I've heard remain supporters say that if BREXIT wins, Brits won't be able to have visa-free travel to Europe. Why is this so? Turkey is not a member of the EU and they are about to get visa-free travel. Why wouldn't they extend the same privilege to Britain?
  101. @Daniel H
    Condemnation and dislike of "Romanians" in Britain (and Ireland) is common, but of course the condemned are not Romanian, they are Gypsies. This is not dog whistling, it is something else. It is forbidden by the PC police to reveal how unpleasant Gypsies (and Arabs, and Pakistanis) are, but it is alright to condemn Romanians and Poles because they are white Christians. The psychology of the SJW is a very sick place.

    Yes, I have dealt with the social welfare problems created by Gypsies, and their way of life and treatment of children is disgusting, with substantial levels of sexual abuse…

  102. iSteveFan says:
    @pyrrhus
    Europe needs Britain far more than Britain needs Europe--trade will continue, but on better terms for the UK most likely.....Remember, the dead-in-the-water EU wants to destroy the UK financial industry and dump unlimited immigrants on the Brits....

    Not only will trade continue, but so to will travel. I’ve heard remain supporters say that if BREXIT wins, Brits won’t be able to have visa-free travel to Europe. Why is this so? Turkey is not a member of the EU and they are about to get visa-free travel. Why wouldn’t they extend the same privilege to Britain?

    • Replies: @AKAHorace
    To fuck them over. Why not ?
    , @Fredrik
    They say so because they know that the BREXIT government will try to stop visa free travel for certain European nationalities. Then the EU will of course stop visa free travel for British.
  103. @Leftist conservative

    I don’t think it will pass anyway. A wasted opportunity. Between this vote and a likely Trump loss, 2016 might go down as the failure of the last opportunities to stop, or slow, the march of socialism in the West.
     
    True, perhaps. But this is a movement in progress. Populist nationalist vote opportunies have been defeated several times recently. But we are making progress. Where were we 10 years ago? Nowhere.

    Where will we be 10 years from now? I predict that we are headed for an Article 5 convention of the state legislatures eventually. The sooner the better. it will happen. That is really the end game of nationalism in america.

    I hope you’re right but I am not optimistic. I guess you can say that we are farther than we were ten years ago in seeing the light, but that’s only because the darkness has forced us to be. I am not sure if the shocks to our society were worth it — our national debt is more than double what it was then, cultural Marxism is more entrenched, and we saw fit to elect the farthest left president ever. A half a generation of millenials has been indoctrinated. Perhaps we could say that all of this was necessary to pave the way for Trump, but it’s a tough pill to swallow that we have had to drive even farther off the cliff to prove that we should tap the brakes on the car.

    As for an Article V convention, I am very wary of that. Most Americans don’t support capitalism or free speech, and even gun rights are a close call. I worry that if these consensuses are put into action, the result will be worse than what we have now — perhaps much worse if the left hijacks such a convention, as they are skilled at doing.

    More thoughts on the convention here: https://rightwise.org/2014/05/01/conservatives-calling-for-a-constitutional-convention-be-careful-what-you-wish-for/

  104. @al gore rhythms
    I agree. Richard Spencer's White nationalism is a product of the European melting pot of America, but there is no evidence that it is particular or culturally specific enough to be able to create a deep-rooted sense of identity that tugs at the heart in the way that being English or French does. In fact I sometimes wonder whether the 'white guilt' religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities. But whether that is the case or not, it is a mistake to transplant the racial situation of the New World onto Europe, which, while there are paralells, is also quite different.

    In reality the EU is bad for whites and bad for European civilisation. One only has to look at the enemies ranged against the Brexit vote--Obama, Merkel, the IMF. It's like a who's who of ISteve.

    The EU is a Utopian dream, as was the Soviet Union. Totalitarian societies are created by people who, like Merkel with her refugees--'if I can't do this then this isn't my Germany' believe so strongly in the goodness of their own feelings and instincts that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction that stands in their way. If you accept the logic of the EU then you will probably accept the logic of a one world government and the steamrollering of race, culture, family, and morality that this will carry in its wake by those who will will enfore their rule with ruthless piety. For me a world stripped of all the glorious quirks of human culture for the sake of global capital and leftist religion is a nightmare not a fantasy. It's like wanting to see all the rainforests and all its natural wonders pulled up and covered in tarmac. I want the globalists to lose, and it can't come soon enough.

    So I'm voting to leave.

    Great comment Al. Along with your spot on point about the totalitarian mindset, this bit–the “tarmac” analogy is terrific:

    For me a world stripped of all the glorious quirks of human culture for the sake of global capital and leftist religion is a nightmare not a fantasy. It’s like wanting to see all the rainforests and all its natural wonders pulled up and covered in tarmac. I want the globalists to lose, and it can’t come soon enough.

    That’s exactly spot on. Globalism is inherently totalitarian–that’s the nature of “one” as opposed to many. But it also has the that depressing totalitarian aesthetic of leveling everything. Let the various peoples, races, cultures all live without putting us in the blender and beating us to a pulp.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Aside from some people like the Amish, most people don't seem that keen about retiring from the commerce and technology based lifestyle that ultimately drives globalism. America itself is a continent sized polity whose vast regions are linked by commerce and technological infrastructure, and whose shared culture mainly consists of technologically mediated broadcast television and movies.
  105. @27 year old
    >2016 might go down as the failure of the last opportunities to stop, or slow, the march of socialism in the West.

    Oh yeah, the problem is "socialism", that's what we need to stop...

    ...


    Riiight...

    Hey, tell you what, when you get out to Galt's Gulch and you're safe from all that eeevil socialism, you can endorse your social security checks over to me and I'll take your 30 years of back mortgage interest tax deductions too.

    I am under 40 and, having worked most of my life overseas, haven’t paid much into social security (but still have had most of my income subject to federal taxation). I have also never had a mortgage. That is, I am just a typical single middle-class white guy who gets the least from our government relative to what I put in.

    I would gladly sign over the miniscule Social Security that I am set to receive, if the system is still operating then, in exchange for eliminating the program, say for everyone under 30, with phased ramp-downs for people 30-50, starting today. (I agree that we can’t renege for people who have been paying in their whole lives.)

    But this thread is about Brexit and the U.K. is more socialist than we are, and getting more so all the time, especially if Brexit fails.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    To add to that response:

    Sure, it sounds nice to have a system in which your worst off are well taken care of, but ultimately it's all a gross utilitarian project that rips away anything but the most shallow, selfish desires of man anyway. Swedes have been living well in a socialist state for decades, and what good has that done them? They have slipped into a horrifying vegetative state from which they might never wake up. They have lost their will to live, and in general any idea of what their lives are about. Socialism begets a system in which Hillary Clinton can give a speech that literally just addresses mundane concerns like college debt while the entirety of the West is on death's doorstep.

    Has it ever not ended in horrific utilitarian utopianism that attempts to erase everything that is worthwhile about human life in its pursuit of comfort? I struggle to think of an example, and suspect these things are inextricably linked to each other.
  106. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @iSteveFan
    British readers, as an American I am assuming that the only reason BREXIT won't win is due to immigration. Is this correct? Will the new immigrants and their descendants be responsible for making the remain side the winner?

    Would a theoretical referendum with only traditional British voters result in a huge victory for BREXIT?

    I know in the US if our demographics were the same as they were 30 years ago, the republicans would win in November in a landslide. But due to changes, they'll probably lose. Is the same happening in the UK?

    Yes and no.

    The pro-EU vote is a mixture of a consciously Europhile globalist minority, most immigrants and those natives conned by the media’s fear campaign over the economy so yes the immigrant vote is crucial to the Europhiles and extra voters is why they opened the borders *however* personally I think the excessive immigration is why fewer natives are being conned by the scare tactics over the economy than otherwise would be.

    Without immigration I think the native vote might have been say 60/4o in favour of the EU as the media’s scare tactics wouldn’t have been countered by the problems caused by immigration.

    With immigration it’s more like 60/40 for Brexit (among the natives) with the immigrant vote likely to be crucial for the other side.

    So there’s a complex two-way balance.

  107. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @RamonaQ
    I'm rooting for Brexit but it's obvious that people are using the largely useless issue as a way to project anxieties that can't really be articulated in their ridiculous society.

    Sorry, but when thousands of minors are being treated as sex-slaves by Pakistani gangs and the socially virtuous thing to do is be silent on the issue and instead advocate for Syrian refugees like Jo Cox did then your society is hopelessly broken.

    You’re correct the society is totally broken, dominated as it is by amoral SJW virtue signalling controlled by the BBC.

    However it’s not a useless issue.

    Whatever the outcome, the EU will crack down harder afterwards becoming more totalitarian and stressing the system.

    The only way out of the approaching globalist nightmare is the stress the system to the point where it cracks.

  108. Posh & Becks promoted Remain. It could be this is some sort of reverse psychology trick on their part.

  109. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad
    Great comment Al. Along with your spot on point about the totalitarian mindset, this bit--the "tarmac" analogy is terrific:

    For me a world stripped of all the glorious quirks of human culture for the sake of global capital and leftist religion is a nightmare not a fantasy. It’s like wanting to see all the rainforests and all its natural wonders pulled up and covered in tarmac. I want the globalists to lose, and it can’t come soon enough.
     
    That's exactly spot on. Globalism is inherently totalitarian--that's the nature of "one" as opposed to many. But it also has the that depressing totalitarian aesthetic of leveling everything. Let the various peoples, races, cultures all live without putting us in the blender and beating us to a pulp.

    Aside from some people like the Amish, most people don’t seem that keen about retiring from the commerce and technology based lifestyle that ultimately drives globalism. America itself is a continent sized polity whose vast regions are linked by commerce and technological infrastructure, and whose shared culture mainly consists of technologically mediated broadcast television and movies.

  110. The irony: If Britain doesn’t vote to leave the EU, it won’t be ruled from Brussels. It will rather be ruled from Mecca.

    • Replies: @celt darnell
    No institution has done more to promote the rule of Mecca than the EU.

    Getting out is the only way to halt the Muslim invasion.
  111. @Neoconned
    I dunno but I imagine they're preferable to the slum hordes of Dehli and Lagos.

    It's kinda like choosing between your trailer trash relations and the loud Puerto Ricans who stay up night playing salsa music and drinking beer.

    I dunno but I imagine they’re preferable to the slum hordes of Dehli and Lagos.

    The Derb has observed in the past that the “slum hordes from Delhi,” i.e. Indian Hindus are assimilating well into middle-class British society, at least economically. He mentioned something about first gen types in Porsches heading off to their investment banking jobs in the City. Indian migration seems to have tapered off in the early 1970s, perhaps after rumors got back about beatings by skinheads? I’m no expert, but that’s my impression from reading about it.

    On the other hand, the current problem is that it’s the slum hordes from Islamabad, i.e. Pakistani Muslims, who are refusing to assimilate, and routinely import brides, three generations on, from the ancestral farmlands. That seems to be the kernel of the insoluble problem.

    • Replies: @NOTA
    Intermarriage is probably one of the really strong forces toward assimilation. Making it a pain for immigrants to bring people over from the old country to marry might help assimilation along. (Though it might have all kinds of bad effects too.)
  112. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    The UK MSM constantly pushes a bemused line of “Gee, why do these white knuckle draggers have a problem with free movement within Europe, what’s wrong with Germans living in Britain?”

    It’s bullshit. Most Brits have no problem with Europeans living in the UK, maybe there are somewhat too many Poles, but the real issue is 3rd world, non-white migration facilitated by the EU. Which the MSM entirely ignore and the main parties strenuously overlook too. So the whole public debate is a lie. No surprise to anyone who reads iSteve.

  113. @Anonymous
    Richard Spencer and the Alt Right in a Nutshell:

    https://youtu.be/PHbv3XiKPA0

    Lol, that’s funny. Who’s the gay guy they keep going back to talking about how he’s attracted to men?

  114. I grew up in England and the potential scenarios are so numerous that it is hard to progosticate. Electoral fraud is now a real issue in Britain especially in London. Do I think the government is capable of corrution? Hell yes! The Leavers have done far better than I or most people expected and that was entirely due to Farage’s decision to put immigration front and centre – much to the horror of BOJO and Gove.

    Unless the outcome is a convincing win for Remain, this issue will continue to be a running sore.

    The best case scenario (which remains unlikely but far from impossible) is a slight win for Leave leading to a meltdown in the Tory Party, which is more part of the problem than the solution to Britain’s woes. If the Tory Party fragments and Labour donkey vote has no toffy nosed Tory Party to vote against, then the entire electoral map of England will be redrawn withn two years.

    PS. BOJO wants to be PM. That is the only thing he is interested in. He sees this as a way of destroying Cameron.

  115. @Daniel H
    Condemnation and dislike of "Romanians" in Britain (and Ireland) is common, but of course the condemned are not Romanian, they are Gypsies. This is not dog whistling, it is something else. It is forbidden by the PC police to reveal how unpleasant Gypsies (and Arabs, and Pakistanis) are, but it is alright to condemn Romanians and Poles because they are white Christians. The psychology of the SJW is a very sick place.

    Exactly. I despise the SJW mindset more every day.

  116. @iSteveFan
    Not only will trade continue, but so to will travel. I've heard remain supporters say that if BREXIT wins, Brits won't be able to have visa-free travel to Europe. Why is this so? Turkey is not a member of the EU and they are about to get visa-free travel. Why wouldn't they extend the same privilege to Britain?

    To fuck them over. Why not ?

  117. @iSteveFan
    British readers, as an American I am assuming that the only reason BREXIT won't win is due to immigration. Is this correct? Will the new immigrants and their descendants be responsible for making the remain side the winner?

    Would a theoretical referendum with only traditional British voters result in a huge victory for BREXIT?

    I know in the US if our demographics were the same as they were 30 years ago, the republicans would win in November in a landslide. But due to changes, they'll probably lose. Is the same happening in the UK?

    I am assuming that the only reason BREXIT won’t win is due to immigration. Is this correct? Will the new immigrants and their descendants be responsible for making the remain side the winner?

    Probably true but lets remember the UK is still 80%+ white British and many immigrants will not be allowed to vote (in theory).

    Would a theoretical referendum with only traditional British voters result in a huge victory for BREXIT?

    Almost certainly! I’ve met far more Leavers than Remainers, so much so that the public position that the split is almost 50/50 looks highly suspect.

  118. Brexit may get rid of many of the Eastern Europeans working in the fields and farms of the English countryside. But the problem of all the non-European immigrants remains.

    It’s not having to kow-tow to the various EU bureaucrats that’s the big psychic payoff.

  119. @anon

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing.
     
    Roma. The media won't say that because of PC so they say Romanian instead.

    (Roma > Romanian in PC victim hierarchy)

    I’m sure most people who’ve had any contact with Romanians and Roma are crystal clear on the realities. But sadly the media still continue to talk about ‘Romanians’ when they really mean Roma.

    • Replies: @anon
    yes, people who don't know just assume Roma = Romanian because of the media
  120. @Whiskey
    Remain wins with big margin. Most White British women are like Jo Cox. Can't get enough Muslims, despise their own men. Margin victory Reain is White women.

    If Remain wins, it will be by a tiny margin, anything else would look highly suspicious.

  121. UK should absolutely leave but it won’t. Not now anyway. Tetlock’s superforecasters give it only about 20% chance and I think that they are right on the money: https://twitter.com/GJ_Analytics/status/745573421262737409

  122. @Anonymous
    Richard Spencer and the Alt Right in a Nutshell:

    https://youtu.be/PHbv3XiKPA0

    Good looking women on the Alt Right.

  123. @Neoconned
    Stupid idea. A better solution would be keep the Euro and have a coalition of pan European anti immigration parties running the European system.

    Europeans moving from nation to nation is a good idea - it's all the ppl smugglers and the "refugees" who are ruining a pan European system that used to work quite well.

    Even if they leave the EU.....it doesn't mean immigration restrictionists will seize power in parliament. The g lobalists in London could still kick the hothouse door open to immigration and refugees.

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian. They're preferable to the Hindu-islamic hordes coming from the third world slums.....

    Brexit would close the door to trade between European nations but wouldn't necessarily ban African or Islamic immigration to the U.K.

    The British who delude themselves into thinking they "aeuropean" ignore history and believe in Anglo cultural nonsense with no roots in western history.

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian.

    There’s absolutely no reason Brits shouldn’t be free to dislike in invasion of any other people, white or not. Brits should be–and are by natural law–free to decide they want to live just with other Brits. (Ditto smaller units like Scots, English, Welsh, Cornish as well.) People have a fundamental right to live with whom they want to live.

    ~

    I any case, if there’s any big hub-bub about “Romanians”, it’s actually Roma–Gypsies. And they, in fact, are not white. The are Indian tribals–the DNA is conclusive. And they are a mess.

    We can have all sorts of colorful arguments about the utility of having these various endogamous middle man minorities around. (I say it’s bad in the long run–develop your own commercial talents.) But the Roma are a group who’s particular niche is just … theft. They are just parasites on the host society with absolutely no redeeming value whatsoever. None.

    And it’s very clear that the EU has absolutely no idea how to handle them, what to do with them. And that’s why no one wants to talk about them. The Roma are a group who pretty much prove that “diversity” is not always so great, and that “diverse” people do not in fact just somehow sort of work out.

  124. 124 comments and no one said, “You Brexit, you bought it” yet.

  125. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Or rather perhaps some Brits don't want to see even more Muslims entering into their nation via easy open borders thru EU immigration policies.

    The Muslims are entering through Britain’s own policies. They are from Bangladesh and Pakistan.

    The vast majority of EU-immigrants are Europeans.

  126. @anon

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing.
     
    Roma. The media won't say that because of PC so they say Romanian instead.

    (Roma > Romanian in PC victim hierarchy)

    That could have been true if it wasn’t for the vilification of Polish workers.

    I agree that everyone needs to separate between Romanians and Gypsies but it’s the English that don’t want to. Too bad.

    I don’t particularly like the EU but I dislike the English press and their lies even more. Most of what they say EU (or Jean-Claude Juncker) say/want are lies or misrepresentations of the actual message. I also dislike “Project Fear” because Leave are quite good at reading the press and then interpreting everything the most hysterical way possible.

    Just take Turkey and the agreement with them. What’s been discussed is visa free travel to the EU. It’s bad but it’s not a membership. There are membership discussions with Turkey but they will never succeed. The real sick part of the Leave arguments is that Britain is Turkey’s biggest fan in the EU.

    Another problem with Leave is that we know what they’re against but not what they’re for. A lot of people on the European continent interpret parts of the Leave message as positive for White nationalists. I disagree due to that the migration discussion is about European workers, not about yet another person from the sub-continent. Non-EU immigration is higher than EU immigration but only one of these worries the English.

    I can live with both Remain and Leave.

    • Replies: @anon

    if it wasn’t for the vilification of Polish workers
     
    Yes, there's lots of laws that stop people complaining about non-white immigration so people have used EU immigrants to talk about immigration - I agree it's not fair. I was just saying Romanians have an extra layer on top of that cos Roma. It's the same with people focusing on Islam because there's race laws but not yet religious laws.

    I dislike the English press and their lies even more
     
    Fair enough.

    Just take Turkey and the agreement with them. What’s been discussed is visa free travel to the EU. It’s bad but it’s not a membership.
     
    1) Overstaying visas is the main route for illegal immigration and illegal workers
    2) Turkey has 75m relatively poor people
    so any agreement over visa free travel will lead to millions more illegal immigrants throughout Europe.

    The sickness of the EU leadership and their lack of stewardship is summed up by them even considering visa free travel with any country which is substantially poorer than the EU - it's economic warfare on their own citizens.

    The real sick part of the Leave arguments is that Britain is Turkey’s biggest fan in the EU.
     
    Britain and the US are ruled by the banking mafia and they are half Donmeh. If this rebellion against the elites succeeds that will scupper British pressure for Turkish entry.

    A lot of people on the European continent interpret parts of the Leave message as positive for White nationalists. I disagree due to that the migration discussion is about European workers, not about yet another person from the sub-continent. Non-EU immigration is higher than EU immigration but only one of these worries the English.
     
    You're both half-right.

    The key point about British politics is it is completely dominated by
    1) money from the banking mafia
    2) the BBC.

    So although the root problem is globalists using immigration to destroy the nations - especially immigration from places like Pakistan and Somalia - no-one can say that without a) losing funding and b) being destroyed by the BBC.

    So yes the public debate is totally screwed up by those two distortions but underneath all that the proles are revolting against globalism - which helps everyone else fighting the same battle.
    , @celt darnell
    The English press lies no more than the European press.

    Indeed, at least the English press offers different points of view. Every single European paper I have ever come across reads like a press release from the European Commission.

    As for "hysteria" the Remainders' Project Fear is one big shriek of hysteria.

    You're not British, so you're probably working in a second language, so I'll keep this polite.

    Everyone in the UK knows by "immigration" we're referring to the Third World Invasion taking place. However, if the leavers come out and say that, they'll be tagged as "racists", the second coming of the BNP and, indeed, will be silenced by legal action. Farage is something of a genius by publicly identifying European immigration while clearly referring to Muslim immigration (see the poster he stood in front of -- no white people).

    The fact remains that the people who have instituted and promoted the policy of allowing Muslims into the UK are all pro-Europeans. It was Tony Blair who opened the floodgates; it's Cameron who won't shut them.

    Unless this lot are cleared out -- and they won't be so long as we are in the EU -- the invasion will continue.

    If you're anti-immigrant you're voting Brexit.
    If you're pro-immigrant you're voting remain.

    I hope that's cleared things up for you.
  127. Tracy says: • Website

    Out! When I was little, my Mom, R.I.P., and I used to sit up at night, eat ice cream sundaes (chocolate sauce and Spanish peanuts!), and plan dream trips to Europe (we finally got to take one once, to France). The beauty and History of the European countries were just magical for us. It makes me so sad to think of what Europe’s become — and becoming. The idea of England, France, Italy, Spain, and Germany being turned into new third world countries is so disgusting, and so preventible. I wish the EU would break up, that sane, Christian forms of nationalism arise in European countries (with race realism but no racism), and that Europeans begin to treasure their heritages, ancestors, ways of life, and the Faith that made Europe what it was.

    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @anon
    That's the best hope for Brexit imo - England itself is ****ed either way but if Brexit puts stress on the EU then it might help elsewhere.
    , @Thea
    Yes I really agree. White nationalism in America needs to be a positive unifying force of whites. I'm happy for other groups to succeed but not at the expense of my own.

    A renewed study of where we as a people came from and a frank discussion of where we, people of European descent, are headed
  128. @iSteveFan
    Not only will trade continue, but so to will travel. I've heard remain supporters say that if BREXIT wins, Brits won't be able to have visa-free travel to Europe. Why is this so? Turkey is not a member of the EU and they are about to get visa-free travel. Why wouldn't they extend the same privilege to Britain?

    They say so because they know that the BREXIT government will try to stop visa free travel for certain European nationalities. Then the EU will of course stop visa free travel for British.

    • Replies: @MC
    Until their tourism industry cries bloody murder, at which point they will quietly reopen tourism privileges for Brits.
  129. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    I am a Finnish nationalist. I care more about Finns than I care about other people. And I care more about Europeans (“whites”) than non-Europeans. “Concentric loyalties” I believe is the term.

    I certainly don’t want to fill my country with Iraqis, Somalis, or Afghanis, but neither do I want to fill it with immigrants from other European countries. Of course, if it must happen, I’d much rather have European immigrants. But I’d rather not.

    Spencer says a lot of stupid shit about the EU and ethnic nationalists (he refers to us as “petty nationalists”). He sounds almost as bad as anti-nationalist open borders advocates. He’s just plain wrong about many things, e.g. saying that the EU has nothing to do with the refugee/immigration disaster, that the nation states are wholly at fault. For one, the so-called “freedom of movement” (i.e. lack of border controls) within the EU is a huge reason for it. The vast majority of the asylum seekers simply wouldn’t be able to reach their desired destinations in Northern Europe without it. We Finns wouldn’t have gotten 32,000+ asylum seekers last year without it. Spencer is just an ignorant armchair general with no skin in the game.

    I hope that Brexit happens. It should make the federalists who control the EU less arrogant, less utopian, and less aggressive about pushing their stupidity on Europeans. It’s no panacea, but it’s a step in the right direction.

    • Agree: NickG
    • Replies: @anon

    I hope that Brexit happens. It should make the federalists who control the EU less arrogant, less utopian, and less aggressive about pushing their stupidity on Europeans. It’s no panacea, but it’s a step in the right direction.
     
    I'm hoping for the opposite - that Brexit makes them more authoritarian leading to more rebellion.
    , @Anonymous
    "Concentric loyalties" is a confused and inaccurate and misleading concept. Nobody, whether extreme animal rights supporting liberal or ethnic nationalist or racialist, has "concentric loyalties":

    https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer/status/745838332035403780
    , @Lagertha
    yey! Brexit! Ba da bing!
  130. @Charles Erwin Wilson
    Right! (Or in your case, Bloody well right!) And Trump will never be permitted to be the Republican nominee.

    Don’t be silly. Of course Trump will be GOP nominee! Even the fact that people believe this crap shows the power of Megaphone.

  131. @27 year old
    If Britain leaves, will Scotland then try again to leave Britain?

    It would. But UK won’t leave and yet Scotland will try again to leave it. Give it another decade or so.

  132. @Fredrik
    They say so because they know that the BREXIT government will try to stop visa free travel for certain European nationalities. Then the EU will of course stop visa free travel for British.

    Until their tourism industry cries bloody murder, at which point they will quietly reopen tourism privileges for Brits.

  133. rvg says:

    Have you people even considered that if UK stays in the EU, at least it gets a large amount of Eastern and Central European immigration to counterbalance whatever Black/Muslim immigration it gets from the Commonwealth, while if it leaves the EU all it will get are immigrants from Commonwealth countries like Pakistan, Jamaica, and Nigeria? But when I consider all of North America, Oceania, and all of Europe west of the Elbe and South of the Danube to be a lost cause already, due to the very large nonwhite youth cohort that will be impossible to get rid of short of full scale genocide.

    • Replies: @anon

    Have you people even considered that if UK stays in the EU, at least it gets a large amount of Eastern and Central European immigration to counterbalance whatever Black/Muslim immigration
     
    Yes, if violence was imminent then that would be a consideration but I don't think it is yet except in France and Sweden.

    So I think the best option at the moment is adding stress to the whole EU system.
    , @NickG

    at least it gets a large amount of Eastern and Central European immigration to counterbalance whatever Black/Muslim immigration it gets from the Commonwealth
     
    A high proportion of the mass of migrants entering the EU from the Levant, South Asia and North Africa speak English as a 2nd language, the UK also has especially generous welfare benefits. Consequently we are starting to see many Muslims come over to the UK as secondary immigrants once they secure EU nationality - typically 3-5 yrs. Much of the UK's Somali community has been promulgated via secondary immigration from the EU.

    Personally I'd like to Blighty starting to have national origins criteria and caps, like the US did and like Israel does. But this is well outside the current Overton window, well into the domain of thoughtcrime in the current ethno-masochistic Zeitgeist.

    This pro-leave poster recently revealed by UKIP caused much pointing and spluttering, pearl clutching and Nazi comparisons.

  134. Live coverage of results as they’re announced:

    • Replies: @Tracy
    In this live coverage, what do "Yes" and "No" mean? "Yes, remain"? "No, remain?" "Yes, leave?" "Yes, remain?"
  135. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    Spencer is an idiot who takes his politics from Warhammer 40k.

    • Replies: @rvg
    Hey Asshole where do you suppose the UK will be getting those immigrants if it withdraws from the EU, from Jamaica, Pakistan, and Nigeria.
  136. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A number of points, Steve.

    Firstly, it’s the constitutional issue – perhaps the only real issue. The Westminster parliament – which is comprised of MPs elected by majority vote in individual constituencies and thus is directly answerable to the British electorate, is no longer ‘sovereign’. That is, Westminster – or the British state if you will – has a higher governing power placed above it which is not answerable to the British people. I know it’s long winded and semantic, but effectively the UK is not a ‘sovereign’ in that it no longer has its freedom of action unconstrained, governmentally at least, by ‘someone else’.

    EU apologists like to waffle and argue this away, but basically, this crucial difference is the difference between a colony and an independent nation.

    Secondly, the EU is old news. It has been stagnating – due to shithead and stubborn policies – for decades. It is unlikely to start thriving again any time in the future. Ever.
    China is the only game in town.

    Thirdly, the EU is a vector – due to the ‘refugee’ crisis, ‘free movement’ , ‘human rights legislation’ and the precipitate granting of citizenship – of unlimited third world immigration into Britain. This immigration will grow to massive proportions and will prove disastrous.

  137. @This Is Our Home
    Spencer is an idiot who takes his politics from Warhammer 40k.

    Hey Asshole where do you suppose the UK will be getting those immigrants if it withdraws from the EU, from Jamaica, Pakistan, and Nigeria.

    • Replies: @This Is Our Home
    A step in the right direction is required, even though not sufficient, to complete the race.

    *I like my typification of your politics as those of Warhammer. It seems to hit a certain spot. Nonetheless, keep up the good work. A certain type of kid loves that stuff, and they are as important and valuable as anyone. Different strokes for different folks... But please stay out of the EU referendum and the future governance of my country!

    , @Expletive Deleted
    Oh, I see. Perpetual immigration is in fact compulsory now? Are you Angela Merkel?
    If the Bremaniacs' lies about the total implosion of the UK economy if they are defied come to pass (check out Leathery Lagarde's preposterous threats, if you fancy a bit of a giraffe), then exactly how attractive will the most densely and ridiculously overpopulated country in Europe be, as we fight each other for potato peelings and firewood in dumpsters? Even the Paddies might pack up and leave.
  138. @rvg
    Hey Asshole where do you suppose the UK will be getting those immigrants if it withdraws from the EU, from Jamaica, Pakistan, and Nigeria.

    A step in the right direction is required, even though not sufficient, to complete the race.

    *I like my typification of your politics as those of Warhammer. It seems to hit a certain spot. Nonetheless, keep up the good work. A certain type of kid loves that stuff, and they are as important and valuable as anyone. Different strokes for different folks… But please stay out of the EU referendum and the future governance of my country!

  139. There’s no such thing as ‘European’ nationalism. Europeans either love the whole world, including their neighbors, or they hate the whole world, especially their neighbors. It’s one or the other. The question is not which is better, but which is least harmful.

  140. @Randal
    I've been expecting all along that Remain would win by a slim majority, similar to the Scottish referendum recently. I am absolutely committed to escaping from the EU, but I just think the referendum was called too soon, before we had achieved significant Parliamentary representation for the Leave camp. Such a vote will always in Britain tend to stick with the status quo, imo, and especially when the leadership hierarchies of all the mainstream political parties are arguing for that.

    But I have been pleasantly surprised by the strong showing of the Leave campaigners in the polls. It seems clear they have won the arguments and shifted opinion. It feels like a cruel dangling of hope, though, for me.

    Whatever the result though, it ends nothing. The goal was never to have, or to win, a referendum. The objective was always, and remains, to escape from the birthing United States of Europe before we are faced with only the options available to Carolinans and Virginians in 1861. There's a long way to go from even a reasonably strong Leave victory (55%, say) to actually getting out, when the forces against getting out are so powerful and so entrenched in the business, media and political high ground. A referendum result, of course, is not binding on Parliament. And even then of course, having dealt with the priority threat, we have to face the issues of getting out from under US "influence"......

    It won't be the end, or even the beginning of the end, but it might perhaps be the end of the beginning (to use my favourite political quote yet again).

    Much the same applies, of course, to a defeat for the British patriots, if that is the result tomorrow. The fight goes on, because it must go on. There can be no compromise or acceptance of defeat when the very existence of the nation as an independent entity is at stake.

    I was hoping for a 5% lead for Leave on the eve of the polls, instead we have seen swing back to level pegging, not sure which way it will go now. Afraid the made up scare ongering that the economy would collapse if we left has had too big an effect.

    The other absurdity is Irish nationals and others, Commonwealth as well I believe, are allowed to vote. It could be them who give Remain a win.

    • Replies: @Randal
    Someone in, I think, the Spectator wrote that a "senior figure at Vote Leave" early on told him that if the two sides are level in opinion polling on the day, Leave would win thanks to differential turnout. On the other hand, my fear is that many of the 10% or so "don't knows" might break for the status quo option.

    No way of knowing, and only a few hours to wait, now.

    This kind of story reported today can't do any harm, mind you:

    UK population increased by half a million, official figures show
  141. 4 observations about from a British born Israeli.

    1) Brexit can’t win. Google, Youtube, Facebook and a few others have the ability to influence voter turnout by way more than the margin of victory in the even the most optimistic polls. Given the importance of this referendum to the Cathederal its frankly inconceivable that they won’t exercise this power.

    2) This referendum has been useful in distilling the latent divisions in the new politics. Right on millenials have spent the last month repeating IMF propaganda as if it was holy Writ, George Osborne has been calling everyone waysist so much would imagine he was smoking a bong. The Left and the globalists will, of course, try to go back to their phoney “1% way” after this, but it will be much harder after a an orgy of mutual backslapping consisting of ever more lurid attempts to demonstrate their disgust for ordinary indigenous Britons. This of course gives opportunities for a new anti-Left alliance. My preference is that this will take a Misesian free-market form, but, of course, other options are possible.

    3) Similarly this referendum has been useful in separating the good from the crap in the alt-right. What a narcissistic twerp Spencer is. The independence of a millenium old country with arguably the greatest cultural heritage in the world is just some “petty” issue getting in the way of realizing his gaylord fantasies. More broadly, I think this demonstrates the real weakness of the WN variant of alt-right thought. White nationalism is both too broad and too rigid. It can’t accommodate “petty” nationalisms that actually mean something to people and so provide a basis for a decent social order, nor can it replace them because it can’t deal with the real issue that people actually quite like having a friendly Hindu running the corner shop and, as such, the basis of national identity, of which shared descent must play a part, must accommodate him too. I suggest, and I’m partly trolling here, that Jewish nationalism is a better model. In principle anyone can join, but its really hard, its you not them who gets to pick, and it’s understood by all that converts don’t make the rules. Now of course, getting to such a model is no easier than just going full white nationalist, arguably even harder, but it’s a more desirable destination.

    • Agree: This Is Our Home
    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted

    people actually quite like having a friendly Hindu running the corner shop and, as such, the basis of national identity, of which shared descent must play a part, must accommodate him too.
     
    Agree. For example, as far as I'm concerned, every damn Gurkha who ever lived is welcome to move to Blighty with their entire clan, as full citizens, and pull down a full pension no questions asked. It's the inexhaustible reserve army of scab labour and blacklegs, choosy beggars, grifters, panhandlers, and fraudsters, fugitive criminals, self-confessed hostiles and colonists that sticks in our craw. And it's the EU that is gleefully shoving them in there.
    , @Wade

    I suggest, and I’m partly trolling here, that Jewish nationalism is a better model. In principle anyone can join, but its really hard, its you not them who gets to pick, and it’s understood by all that converts don’t make the rules. Now of course, getting to such a model is no easier than just going full white nationalist, arguably even harder, but it’s a more desirable destination.
     
    I agree entirely. Israel is a great model to for us to look at.
  142. As for the great virtues of Polish immigration. I lived in Hackney, arguably the epicentre of diverse Britain. I remember once there was a guy in the street who had had his foot run over by a car or something. I couldn’t understand a word he was saying and, guessing he was Polish (he could have been some other eastern European thing, but I went with the probabilities), I went into the nearby pub and asked if anyone spoke Polish can could help this guy out. The whole pub stood up. It was quite common to see an sixty year old woman come into a corner shop, buy a 2 litre bottle of “White Lightning” (the cider equivalent of malt liquor) and put it in her handbag. There were signs in Polish all over the place imploring people not to drop their beer cans in the street.

    More seriously, it was a fairly common thing for a Polish gut to invite his brother/cousin over for a week or two, help him rent a flat and get housing benefit to pay for it (every ethnic group in Hackney has a taxpayer funded organisation to help you with the forms). Then the brother/cousin goes home and he sublets it. Bingo, you’re a landlord. Of course, they work hard; they’re second to none in being able to stand as security guards in the freezing cold for 15 hours at a time. But they have no moral scruples about ripping British people off while they are at it. And that, again, is where national identity (and not fantasies about the white brotherhood) come in.

  143. As a Polish right-winger, who in the west would be called rabid nationalist (though in Poland i am just moderate, reasonable guy), I am torn up by the BrExit. I am not advocating here, and of course I have no right to vote, just wanted to share some thoughts.

    (1) UK leaves – and no counterbalance to the German/France tandem dictating its will to all other EU members
    (2) UK leaves – UK was netto payer, so EU budget will have to be negotiated, and Poland’s financial plans already took into account net flows from EU
    (3) UK leaves – maybe some Poles would go back to Poland? That would be great, as we, in total, lost something like 2 millions of young, enterpreneurial, well-educated citizens. A bloodshed comparable to WW2. If UK would turn rabidly nationalist and they will kick out all the Poles, that would be great.. if Poles would return to Poland. Unfortunately, according to polls, vast majority of Poles have no intention of return even in case of BrExit. They would leave for Germany, Norway or France instead.

    OTOH, BrExit would give us great arguments to fight against eurolemings in Poland. It would awake the public (still 80% pro-EU) to the fact that “europe” does not equals “EU”. In addition, it would be just such a great feeling to see EU side being humiliated…

    • Replies: @rvg
    Well the way I analyze this is: under EU rules at least a significant portion of incoming EU immigrants to Britain that come to fill up the deficit of labor will be white Eastern Europeans, which will at least somewhat balance the nonwhite immigration coming from places like Nigeria, Pakistan, and Jamaica, if the UK withdraws from the EU, this source of white migration will be cut off, and then the UK will have to increase immigration for the Commonwealth to help compensate for cutoff flow of cheap labor from the EU, a significant portion whom at least are white, plus Eastern Europeans are more right wing than their white British counterparts. Basically, assume that 100000 white Eastern Europeans come in every year under EU, this will at least counterbalance somewhat the 300000 immigrants that come in from the Commonwealth, now if Britain leaves the Eu this supply of White Eastern Europeans will be cut off. Now if British that the demographics it had in 1955 this flow from Eastern Europe will not be necessary, but considering White Britain's present demographics predicament, this flow from Eastern Europe will at least go some way to counterbalance Commonwealth immigration.
  144. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @unit472
    I don't know the details of who is eligible to vote but I suspect, since the government extended registration an extra day or two, that the requirments will be minimal. In the Scottish referendum the voting age was lowered to 16 to allow more young people ( who were supposed to be in favor if independence to vote). In this case, the more immigrants who are allowed to vote the better for the 'Remain' camp. For example, over 600,000 Polish citizens are resident in the UK. Its unlikely they ( or any other national or ethnic group) is going to vote in favor of a result that could lead to their deportation or deny them government benefits.

    For example, over 600,000 Polish citizens are resident in the UK. Its unlikely they ( or any other national or ethnic group) is going to vote in favor of a result that could lead to their deportation or deny them government benefits.

    I understand that among non-British EU nationals, only Irish citizens living in Britain are allowed to vote in the referendum – a weird historical thing legacy thing, probably.

    Nevertheless, if comments on Facebook and other internet forums by Poles living in the UK are anything to go by, the Poles are quite a reactionary bunch and give the impression they would vote Brexit if they could.

    Many of the Poles seem to see themselves as unappreciated saviours of Europe with the defeat of the Ottomans at the Battle of Vienna and the defeat of the Soviet Union in the Polish-Soviet war giving them good reason to think this.

    Also, hostility to Poles in the UK is superficial and restricted to people such as builders who have to compete with them.

    All British patriots know about the Polish fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain. I saw a comment on Facebook a few days ago where a fellow Brit asserted we would have lost the Battle of Britain without them, and nobody pointed out there wasn’t actually that many of them. Its become the stuff of legend.

    I went to school with kids with Polish names whose dads had fought at Monte Casino or wherever.

    The Polish soldiers, sailors and airmen never went home after WWII, and this is quite possibly the reason why they are held in such high regard and their contribution to the defence of Britain and ultimate victory is somewhat overblown. But I don’t begrudge them that.

    I am quite sure if you did confidential interviews with Poles in Britain you would be surprised at what they would say.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I don't think it would be impossible for the British and the Poles to negotiate, outside of the EU, a mutually satisfactory deal on immigration. These are two nations with good reasons to respect each other.
    , @szopen
    That must be an effect of your social bubble. Official polls reported in Polish newspapers give "Remain" option huge edge amongst Polish immigrants in UK. Of course, those polls were not representative and were reported by newspapers known from heavy euro-bias, but still, IBRIS poll (IBRIS is a polling company with reasonable accuracy) has shown 79.4% from almost 6000 asked as voting against Remain option (and 50% declared they would want to stay in UK after BrExit no matter what).

    On my facebook feed a lot of my Polish friends cheer "leave" option too, but I know that this is merely artifact of my social filter.
    , @stillCARealist
    Recent visit to your country. Confirm: the workers in our hotel were all Polish. It was a Novotel. They didn't even try to speak English to each other.

    In Italy the hotels were staffed by Italians.
    In Germany by Germans.
    In France, they were French. Also black French (is that a term?).
    In Britain, all Eastern European. The airport employees were EE too at Heathrow, some Africans and ME's as well. Apparently native Britons don't need these service jobs.
  145. After Brexit, I’m broping for a brevival of the British Brempire, and also a breturn to bress brassinine Britishisms.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Oo! That should have been "brhetoric" instead of "Britishisms". So brobvious!
  146. @Oskar Kokoschka
    Live coverage of results as they're announced:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYBskAcSopU

    In this live coverage, what do “Yes” and “No” mean? “Yes, remain”? “No, remain?” “Yes, leave?” “Yes, remain?”

    • Replies: @snorlax
    Yes leave, no remain.
  147. @Chrisnonymous
    After Brexit, I'm broping for a brevival of the British Brempire, and also a breturn to bress brassinine Britishisms.

    Oo! That should have been “brhetoric” instead of “Britishisms”. So brobvious!

  148. How trustworthy is the voting system (voting systems?) in Britain? Are there scandals associated with it all as there are in the U.S. with its dead Chicagoans voting Democrat, anomalies favoring Hillary, etc.?

    • Replies: @snorlax
    Not very and yes, probably worse than America.
  149. Richard Spencer is pro-EU, but not pro-current system. He fears that a Brexit might risk the British state to be overtaken by cucks and liberals. This is not unlikely.

    For example, one of #VoteLeave’s prime spokesmen, Dan Hannan, goes on and on about the EU’s horrific socialism and statism, but he’d be open to welcome migrants from everywhere if the UK is independent. If only we’d stem the inflow of European migrants, there’d be room for them. If you watch “Brexit: The Movie”, you’ll see this is the opinion of most Brexiters. If immigration is your fear, a Brexit will not save you.

    Now, I think Spencer is too optimistic about the EU’s possibility of reform and intent, so I’m in favour of Brexit also. However, Spencer’s argument is sound, and a very wise warning.

    gives the best formulation of my own argument: smaller states are better in a globalized world. Switzerland should be the model. The Swiss trade with all, are peaceful and have referendums on all important issues (at the local level.)

    • Replies: @anon

    Richard Spencer is pro-EU, but not pro-current system. He fears that a Brexit might risk the British state to be overtaken by cucks and liberals. This is not unlikely.
     
    Yes, most of the leaders of Brexit are globalist too; they're just a more Atlanticist version.

    I think Spencer is too optimistic about the EU’s possibility of reform and intent, so I’m in favour of Brexit also
     
    This is the key point - the EU cannot be reformed in the time it will take for them to destroy Europe with "refugee" immigration. It has to be brought down to allow nationalist parties to come to power.
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    "If immigration is your fear, a Brexit will not save you."

    Whether the Brexiteers are pro-immigration is neither here nor there. A vote for them means that the UK is free to choose its own immigration policy.

    While we are in the EU, our borders are as secure as the worst-defended border in the EU. Merkel's Millions will soon have the right to travel to the UK. We've already seen mass benefit tourism when the entire Somali population of Holland upped sticks to the UK, because the Dutch dispersed them widely whereas the UK allows them to cluster in inner cities.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/1479533/Frustrated-Somalis-flee-Holland-for-the-freedom-of-Britain.html

  150. @Lurker
    I'm sure most people who've had any contact with Romanians and Roma are crystal clear on the realities. But sadly the media still continue to talk about 'Romanians' when they really mean Roma.

    yes, people who don’t know just assume Roma = Romanian because of the media

  151. @Anonymous

    For example, over 600,000 Polish citizens are resident in the UK. Its unlikely they ( or any other national or ethnic group) is going to vote in favor of a result that could lead to their deportation or deny them government benefits.
     
    I understand that among non-British EU nationals, only Irish citizens living in Britain are allowed to vote in the referendum - a weird historical thing legacy thing, probably.

    Nevertheless, if comments on Facebook and other internet forums by Poles living in the UK are anything to go by, the Poles are quite a reactionary bunch and give the impression they would vote Brexit if they could.

    Many of the Poles seem to see themselves as unappreciated saviours of Europe with the defeat of the Ottomans at the Battle of Vienna and the defeat of the Soviet Union in the Polish-Soviet war giving them good reason to think this.

    Also, hostility to Poles in the UK is superficial and restricted to people such as builders who have to compete with them.

    All British patriots know about the Polish fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain. I saw a comment on Facebook a few days ago where a fellow Brit asserted we would have lost the Battle of Britain without them, and nobody pointed out there wasn't actually that many of them. Its become the stuff of legend.

    I went to school with kids with Polish names whose dads had fought at Monte Casino or wherever.

    The Polish soldiers, sailors and airmen never went home after WWII, and this is quite possibly the reason why they are held in such high regard and their contribution to the defence of Britain and ultimate victory is somewhat overblown. But I don't begrudge them that.

    I am quite sure if you did confidential interviews with Poles in Britain you would be surprised at what they would say.

    I don’t think it would be impossible for the British and the Poles to negotiate, outside of the EU, a mutually satisfactory deal on immigration. These are two nations with good reasons to respect each other.

  152. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Fredrik
    That could have been true if it wasn't for the vilification of Polish workers.

    I agree that everyone needs to separate between Romanians and Gypsies but it's the English that don't want to. Too bad.

    I don't particularly like the EU but I dislike the English press and their lies even more. Most of what they say EU (or Jean-Claude Juncker) say/want are lies or misrepresentations of the actual message. I also dislike "Project Fear" because Leave are quite good at reading the press and then interpreting everything the most hysterical way possible.

    Just take Turkey and the agreement with them. What's been discussed is visa free travel to the EU. It's bad but it's not a membership. There are membership discussions with Turkey but they will never succeed. The real sick part of the Leave arguments is that Britain is Turkey's biggest fan in the EU.

    Another problem with Leave is that we know what they're against but not what they're for. A lot of people on the European continent interpret parts of the Leave message as positive for White nationalists. I disagree due to that the migration discussion is about European workers, not about yet another person from the sub-continent. Non-EU immigration is higher than EU immigration but only one of these worries the English.

    I can live with both Remain and Leave.

    if it wasn’t for the vilification of Polish workers

    Yes, there’s lots of laws that stop people complaining about non-white immigration so people have used EU immigrants to talk about immigration – I agree it’s not fair. I was just saying Romanians have an extra layer on top of that cos Roma. It’s the same with people focusing on Islam because there’s race laws but not yet religious laws.

    I dislike the English press and their lies even more

    Fair enough.

    Just take Turkey and the agreement with them. What’s been discussed is visa free travel to the EU. It’s bad but it’s not a membership.

    1) Overstaying visas is the main route for illegal immigration and illegal workers
    2) Turkey has 75m relatively poor people
    so any agreement over visa free travel will lead to millions more illegal immigrants throughout Europe.

    The sickness of the EU leadership and their lack of stewardship is summed up by them even considering visa free travel with any country which is substantially poorer than the EU – it’s economic warfare on their own citizens.

    The real sick part of the Leave arguments is that Britain is Turkey’s biggest fan in the EU.

    Britain and the US are ruled by the banking mafia and they are half Donmeh. If this rebellion against the elites succeeds that will scupper British pressure for Turkish entry.

    A lot of people on the European continent interpret parts of the Leave message as positive for White nationalists. I disagree due to that the migration discussion is about European workers, not about yet another person from the sub-continent. Non-EU immigration is higher than EU immigration but only one of these worries the English.

    You’re both half-right.

    The key point about British politics is it is completely dominated by
    1) money from the banking mafia
    2) the BBC.

    So although the root problem is globalists using immigration to destroy the nations – especially immigration from places like Pakistan and Somalia – no-one can say that without a) losing funding and b) being destroyed by the BBC.

    So yes the public debate is totally screwed up by those two distortions but underneath all that the proles are revolting against globalism – which helps everyone else fighting the same battle.

  153. @Tracy
    Out! When I was little, my Mom, R.I.P., and I used to sit up at night, eat ice cream sundaes (chocolate sauce and Spanish peanuts!), and plan dream trips to Europe (we finally got to take one once, to France). The beauty and History of the European countries were just magical for us. It makes me so sad to think of what Europe's become -- and becoming. The idea of England, France, Italy, Spain, and Germany being turned into new third world countries is so disgusting, and so preventible. I wish the EU would break up, that sane, Christian forms of nationalism arise in European countries (with race realism but no racism), and that Europeans begin to treasure their heritages, ancestors, ways of life, and the Faith that made Europe what it was.

    That’s the best hope for Brexit imo – England itself is ****ed either way but if Brexit puts stress on the EU then it might help elsewhere.

  154. @Anonymous

    For example, over 600,000 Polish citizens are resident in the UK. Its unlikely they ( or any other national or ethnic group) is going to vote in favor of a result that could lead to their deportation or deny them government benefits.
     
    I understand that among non-British EU nationals, only Irish citizens living in Britain are allowed to vote in the referendum - a weird historical thing legacy thing, probably.

    Nevertheless, if comments on Facebook and other internet forums by Poles living in the UK are anything to go by, the Poles are quite a reactionary bunch and give the impression they would vote Brexit if they could.

    Many of the Poles seem to see themselves as unappreciated saviours of Europe with the defeat of the Ottomans at the Battle of Vienna and the defeat of the Soviet Union in the Polish-Soviet war giving them good reason to think this.

    Also, hostility to Poles in the UK is superficial and restricted to people such as builders who have to compete with them.

    All British patriots know about the Polish fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain. I saw a comment on Facebook a few days ago where a fellow Brit asserted we would have lost the Battle of Britain without them, and nobody pointed out there wasn't actually that many of them. Its become the stuff of legend.

    I went to school with kids with Polish names whose dads had fought at Monte Casino or wherever.

    The Polish soldiers, sailors and airmen never went home after WWII, and this is quite possibly the reason why they are held in such high regard and their contribution to the defence of Britain and ultimate victory is somewhat overblown. But I don't begrudge them that.

    I am quite sure if you did confidential interviews with Poles in Britain you would be surprised at what they would say.

    That must be an effect of your social bubble. Official polls reported in Polish newspapers give “Remain” option huge edge amongst Polish immigrants in UK. Of course, those polls were not representative and were reported by newspapers known from heavy euro-bias, but still, IBRIS poll (IBRIS is a polling company with reasonable accuracy) has shown 79.4% from almost 6000 asked as voting against Remain option (and 50% declared they would want to stay in UK after BrExit no matter what).

    On my facebook feed a lot of my Polish friends cheer “leave” option too, but I know that this is merely artifact of my social filter.

  155. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    I am a Finnish nationalist. I care more about Finns than I care about other people. And I care more about Europeans ("whites") than non-Europeans. "Concentric loyalties" I believe is the term.

    I certainly don't want to fill my country with Iraqis, Somalis, or Afghanis, but neither do I want to fill it with immigrants from other European countries. Of course, if it must happen, I'd much rather have European immigrants. But I'd rather not.

    Spencer says a lot of stupid shit about the EU and ethnic nationalists (he refers to us as "petty nationalists"). He sounds almost as bad as anti-nationalist open borders advocates. He's just plain wrong about many things, e.g. saying that the EU has nothing to do with the refugee/immigration disaster, that the nation states are wholly at fault. For one, the so-called "freedom of movement" (i.e. lack of border controls) within the EU is a huge reason for it. The vast majority of the asylum seekers simply wouldn't be able to reach their desired destinations in Northern Europe without it. We Finns wouldn't have gotten 32,000+ asylum seekers last year without it. Spencer is just an ignorant armchair general with no skin in the game.

    I hope that Brexit happens. It should make the federalists who control the EU less arrogant, less utopian, and less aggressive about pushing their stupidity on Europeans. It's no panacea, but it's a step in the right direction.

    I hope that Brexit happens. It should make the federalists who control the EU less arrogant, less utopian, and less aggressive about pushing their stupidity on Europeans. It’s no panacea, but it’s a step in the right direction.

    I’m hoping for the opposite – that Brexit makes them more authoritarian leading to more rebellion.

  156. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @rvg
    Have you people even considered that if UK stays in the EU, at least it gets a large amount of Eastern and Central European immigration to counterbalance whatever Black/Muslim immigration it gets from the Commonwealth, while if it leaves the EU all it will get are immigrants from Commonwealth countries like Pakistan, Jamaica, and Nigeria? But when I consider all of North America, Oceania, and all of Europe west of the Elbe and South of the Danube to be a lost cause already, due to the very large nonwhite youth cohort that will be impossible to get rid of short of full scale genocide.

    Have you people even considered that if UK stays in the EU, at least it gets a large amount of Eastern and Central European immigration to counterbalance whatever Black/Muslim immigration

    Yes, if violence was imminent then that would be a consideration but I don’t think it is yet except in France and Sweden.

    So I think the best option at the moment is adding stress to the whole EU system.

  157. If one accepts the reality of the Deep State in Europe and North America as core to the world-wide Anglo-Saxon Empire (the United States, Britain, Australia and their European provinces), then it follows that MI5 and MI6 would be acting to skew the polls and otherwise take action to ensure that Britain continues to serve the interests of the Deep State. Hence, whether Britain stays in or leaves the EU will be determined by the interests of that State. “Facts” are impossible in the short term to prove this hypothesis one way or the other since it is usually years or decades before historians can dig out the facts.

    All one has to do is look at the unfolding “real history” of Europe from the height of the British Empire through the post-WWII era as documented by historians to support the hypothesis of the Deep State. Indeed, Britain paved the way for Western industrial countries with the models for a “double” government as well as financialized, mercantile economies — in this case the government for public consumption (Parliament) and the hidden government making strategic economic and foreign policy decisions (the elite-ruled civil service).

    • Replies: @anon

    If one accepts the reality of the Deep State in Europe and North America as core to the world-wide Anglo-Saxon Empire
     
    but which deep state? Trump's candidacy hints to me at a possible split between the banking mafia and the MIC

    (because the MIC needs a strong US economy whereas the banking mafia already have one foot in China).

    If that's correct then who does MI5/6 take their orders from?
  158. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Maciano
    Richard Spencer is pro-EU, but not pro-current system. He fears that a Brexit might risk the British state to be overtaken by cucks and liberals. This is not unlikely.

    For example, one of #VoteLeave's prime spokesmen, Dan Hannan, goes on and on about the EU's horrific socialism and statism, but he'd be open to welcome migrants from everywhere if the UK is independent. If only we'd stem the inflow of European migrants, there'd be room for them. If you watch "Brexit: The Movie", you'll see this is the opinion of most Brexiters. If immigration is your fear, a Brexit will not save you.

    Now, I think Spencer is too optimistic about the EU's possibility of reform and intent, so I'm in favour of Brexit also. However, Spencer's argument is sound, and a very wise warning.

    @TGGP gives the best formulation of my own argument: smaller states are better in a globalized world. Switzerland should be the model. The Swiss trade with all, are peaceful and have referendums on all important issues (at the local level.)

    Richard Spencer is pro-EU, but not pro-current system. He fears that a Brexit might risk the British state to be overtaken by cucks and liberals. This is not unlikely.

    Yes, most of the leaders of Brexit are globalist too; they’re just a more Atlanticist version.

    I think Spencer is too optimistic about the EU’s possibility of reform and intent, so I’m in favour of Brexit also

    This is the key point – the EU cannot be reformed in the time it will take for them to destroy Europe with “refugee” immigration. It has to be brought down to allow nationalist parties to come to power.

  159. @szopen
    As a Polish right-winger, who in the west would be called rabid nationalist (though in Poland i am just moderate, reasonable guy), I am torn up by the BrExit. I am not advocating here, and of course I have no right to vote, just wanted to share some thoughts.

    (1) UK leaves - and no counterbalance to the German/France tandem dictating its will to all other EU members
    (2) UK leaves - UK was netto payer, so EU budget will have to be negotiated, and Poland's financial plans already took into account net flows from EU
    (3) UK leaves - maybe some Poles would go back to Poland? That would be great, as we, in total, lost something like 2 millions of young, enterpreneurial, well-educated citizens. A bloodshed comparable to WW2. If UK would turn rabidly nationalist and they will kick out all the Poles, that would be great.. if Poles would return to Poland. Unfortunately, according to polls, vast majority of Poles have no intention of return even in case of BrExit. They would leave for Germany, Norway or France instead.

    OTOH, BrExit would give us great arguments to fight against eurolemings in Poland. It would awake the public (still 80% pro-EU) to the fact that "europe" does not equals "EU". In addition, it would be just such a great feeling to see EU side being humiliated...

    Well the way I analyze this is: under EU rules at least a significant portion of incoming EU immigrants to Britain that come to fill up the deficit of labor will be white Eastern Europeans, which will at least somewhat balance the nonwhite immigration coming from places like Nigeria, Pakistan, and Jamaica, if the UK withdraws from the EU, this source of white migration will be cut off, and then the UK will have to increase immigration for the Commonwealth to help compensate for cutoff flow of cheap labor from the EU, a significant portion whom at least are white, plus Eastern Europeans are more right wing than their white British counterparts. Basically, assume that 100000 white Eastern Europeans come in every year under EU, this will at least counterbalance somewhat the 300000 immigrants that come in from the Commonwealth, now if Britain leaves the Eu this supply of White Eastern Europeans will be cut off. Now if British that the demographics it had in 1955 this flow from Eastern Europe will not be necessary, but considering White Britain’s present demographics predicament, this flow from Eastern Europe will at least go some way to counterbalance Commonwealth immigration.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Sorry.

    It doesn't quite work that way.

    The last British politician to control immigration was Thatcher, who reduced it to a trickle.
    Subcontinental immigration has proved hard to eradicate due to the marriage/family/student/visa scams which subcons seem to specialise in.

    The Immigration Act of 1971 - introduced by Ted Heath, ironically, - was supposed to have ended 'wide scale' immigration to the UK once and for all.
    The 1981 Act of Thatcher was supposed to have 'set the seal' on the 'cessation' of 1971.

    Then came Blair. Secretly and surreptitiously, he tore up the spirit of of 1971 Act, just like The Economist wanted.
    Result: an immigration free-for-all, with Britain opened up to all comers, Poles, subcons, Nigerians alike.
    , @Expletive Deleted

    a significant portion of incoming EU immigrants to Britain that come to fill up the deficit of labor will be white Eastern Europeans,
     
    only if the wage arbitrage which makes this possible and attractive is perpetuated. In other words, the min. wage differentials between UK and A8 (former soviet bloc) countries, in some cases a ratio of 5:1 or more, is maintained, along with much lower living costs and prices in the labour-exporting provinces of the EU. When that levels out, even the Poles will mysteriously become as "lazy" as the Brits.
    Perpetual helotry. I doubt the new chums will stand for that for long. Hence the relentless expansion and drang nach osten of the EU Ponzi, into increasingly wretched and beggarly territories in search of new peons.
    But, as we all know, this behaviour is causing a noticeable and resented decline in the living standards of western proles, and soon the dismantling of national welfare states due to funding difficulties (the 0.1%-ers wet-dream; and mine, incidentally, for completely different reasons).
    Do I hear tumbrils?
  160. @LondonBob
    I was hoping for a 5% lead for Leave on the eve of the polls, instead we have seen swing back to level pegging, not sure which way it will go now. Afraid the made up scare ongering that the economy would collapse if we left has had too big an effect.

    The other absurdity is Irish nationals and others, Commonwealth as well I believe, are allowed to vote. It could be them who give Remain a win.

    Someone in, I think, the Spectator wrote that a “senior figure at Vote Leave” early on told him that if the two sides are level in opinion polling on the day, Leave would win thanks to differential turnout. On the other hand, my fear is that many of the 10% or so “don’t knows” might break for the status quo option.

    No way of knowing, and only a few hours to wait, now.

    This kind of story reported today can’t do any harm, mind you:

    UK population increased by half a million, official figures show

  161. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Of course, it’s only because of Tony Blair’s Economist mandated penchant for massive uncontrolled immigration that we are where we are.
    Brexit is merely the backlash.
    Prior to 2004, ukip was merely a fringe lunatic party amongst fringe lunatic parties. Committed to EU withdrawal and nothing else. Then comes Blair and his mass immigration. The British public caught in, didn’t like it, and ukip tacked in immigration control to its policy focus. The British people at last found a political voice.
    Add Nigel Farage’s well youtubed maverick speeches ripping the ass out of pompous EU functionaries. Result – 2015 election, David Cameron, shit-scared of ukip was forced to offer a referendum to clinch the election.

    If it wasn’t for the New Labour (The Economist) campaign of mass immigration none of this would have happened and business – the headlong rush agreed by the elitist to a federal Europe – would have rumbled on, inexorably, as planned.

  162. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @TheJester
    If one accepts the reality of the Deep State in Europe and North America as core to the world-wide Anglo-Saxon Empire (the United States, Britain, Australia and their European provinces), then it follows that MI5 and MI6 would be acting to skew the polls and otherwise take action to ensure that Britain continues to serve the interests of the Deep State. Hence, whether Britain stays in or leaves the EU will be determined by the interests of that State. "Facts" are impossible in the short term to prove this hypothesis one way or the other since it is usually years or decades before historians can dig out the facts.

    All one has to do is look at the unfolding "real history" of Europe from the height of the British Empire through the post-WWII era as documented by historians to support the hypothesis of the Deep State. Indeed, Britain paved the way for Western industrial countries with the models for a "double" government as well as financialized, mercantile economies -- in this case the government for public consumption (Parliament) and the hidden government making strategic economic and foreign policy decisions (the elite-ruled civil service).

    If one accepts the reality of the Deep State in Europe and North America as core to the world-wide Anglo-Saxon Empire

    but which deep state? Trump’s candidacy hints to me at a possible split between the banking mafia and the MIC

    (because the MIC needs a strong US economy whereas the banking mafia already have one foot in China).

    If that’s correct then who does MI5/6 take their orders from?

  163. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @rvg
    Well the way I analyze this is: under EU rules at least a significant portion of incoming EU immigrants to Britain that come to fill up the deficit of labor will be white Eastern Europeans, which will at least somewhat balance the nonwhite immigration coming from places like Nigeria, Pakistan, and Jamaica, if the UK withdraws from the EU, this source of white migration will be cut off, and then the UK will have to increase immigration for the Commonwealth to help compensate for cutoff flow of cheap labor from the EU, a significant portion whom at least are white, plus Eastern Europeans are more right wing than their white British counterparts. Basically, assume that 100000 white Eastern Europeans come in every year under EU, this will at least counterbalance somewhat the 300000 immigrants that come in from the Commonwealth, now if Britain leaves the Eu this supply of White Eastern Europeans will be cut off. Now if British that the demographics it had in 1955 this flow from Eastern Europe will not be necessary, but considering White Britain's present demographics predicament, this flow from Eastern Europe will at least go some way to counterbalance Commonwealth immigration.

    Sorry.

    It doesn’t quite work that way.

    The last British politician to control immigration was Thatcher, who reduced it to a trickle.
    Subcontinental immigration has proved hard to eradicate due to the marriage/family/student/visa scams which subcons seem to specialise in.

    The Immigration Act of 1971 – introduced by Ted Heath, ironically, – was supposed to have ended ‘wide scale’ immigration to the UK once and for all.
    The 1981 Act of Thatcher was supposed to have ‘set the seal’ on the ‘cessation’ of 1971.

    Then came Blair. Secretly and surreptitiously, he tore up the spirit of of 1971 Act, just like The Economist wanted.
    Result: an immigration free-for-all, with Britain opened up to all comers, Poles, subcons, Nigerians alike.

  164. My sons were watching BBC 10 o’clock news last night, and were both completely convinced this morning that, as reported by BBC, the Remain campaign wanted Aussie-style points system for immigrants (which is of course the Brexit position, Cameron having failed to get any border controls out of the EU).

    After much debate this am, son checks BBC news website for campaign policy positions.

    “Oh no, you’re right Dad – but I could have sworn that’s what the BBC said, because we were both struck by it”

    I hope there’s not dirty BBC work at the crossroads. Wouldn’t put it past them.

  165. @TGGP
    I'm for it, although as an American my opinion doesn't matter. It's my impression that smaller polities tend to be better governed. A "United States of Europe" is not a great idea, because the US is already too large to be effectively governable, and Europe is so divided by language & culture (the ECB is dominated by Germany to the detriment of others, while the PIIGS are in a rut and in some cases never had the quality of governance compatible with membership in the first place). Switzerland has multiple languages, but it's been very decentralized for a long time rather than pushed toward "ever closer union", with a large dose of popular referenda. Switzerland is outside of the EU and gets by just fine. One of the popular justifications for the EU is that it prevents war, but those aware of Sailer's Dirt Theory of War know those are less likely in developed countries these days. The majority of war is now within states rather than between them. It's entirely possible for countries to exist in peace with each other without any need for a federal union. The United States is at peace with its neighbors without the need for any such thing.

    A lot of argument over Brexit focuses on immigration. The Brexiters are hateful English bigots who need to be reprimanded by folks at the Economist (who think "influence is more important than sovereignty", a rather imperial mindset), while the Europhiles are one-worlders singing kumbaya. But the question of what immigration policy is to be is distinct from who is it that will decide the policy. An independent UK would be free to adopt a lax migration policy, and if Merkel had made a different decision the EU might not have let in any Syrians.

    if Merkel had made a different decision the EU might not have let in any Syrians.

    And if your uncle had been born with tits and a box, he’d be your auntie.

  166. I can’t help but reflect on the scene on October 14, 1066, when the Saxons under Harold Godwinson stood on Senlac Hill, pounding their shields with their battle axes and shouting, “Out, out!”

    The Normans, from continental Europe, won that day. Will history repeat itself?

  167. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    And what after all will the practical effect of brexit be?

    Trade is governed by a multitude of treaties. The UK won’t automatically withdraw from those treaties after today’s vote.

    The only loss would be the seats in the European Parliament. So easily bribed calls to mind the exchange of Shaw’s with the woman: “We know what you are. We’re negotiating on a price.”

  168. @Expletive Deleted
    I don't fancy the poorly-concealed European Army project much. Like Rome, the obvious game would be to station legions of troublesome and impoverished tribal levies in the territories of adversaries.
    How about Serbian regiments (they'll get Accession, don't you worry) billeted on the Home Counties, to prevent anyone being nasty to the Strasbourgian Branch Office in former Whitehall/Westminster? It's only Fair, they ain't got no proper jobs, and the Brits owe them because NATO bombing or something. Or Turks (does anyone believe the toss about "not in for thirty years"?). With German officers?
    If Jim fixes my car by tomorrow, I might tool up to town and drop my "Out" vote in the correct bin. Some people (not me) are so paranoid after "Project Fear II" they're taking ballpoints in, to over or under-write the officially required lead-pencil crosses. Dunno if that would make it a spoiled ballot or not.

    I went to vote this morning and asked the adjudicator if it was OK to use a ballpoint pen instead of the supplied pencil-on-a-string. He looked surprised and rather indignant at this impugning of the establishment, but said a pen would be fine as long as the cross was ‘in the box’ (i.e. inside the appropriate box on the ballot paper). A friend of mine planned to use a thick felt-tip pen, but I cautioned him that a bleed-through might render his ballot paper invalid!

    In other elections, the ballot papers are numbered and cross-referenced to one’s number on the electoral roll. The authorities thus have, in theory at least, the ability to create lists of who voted for whom, which always struck me as sinister. I could not find any sign of such cross-referencing today and conclude that, if the result is to be fixed, offending Leave votes will simply go down the memory hole rather than be erased and remade.

    There is too much at stake, and the British people are too trusting, for this referendum to be conducted honestly. Anecdotal evidence suggests a strong majority for Leave; but the bookies’ odds have been influenced by relatively few, unusually large bets for Remain. The bookies have an influence on sentiment almost as great as that of the polling companies, none of whom can be trusted. I predict a narrow ‘majority’ will be engineered for Remain, narrow enough to silence most of those who might object.

    And if such proves to be the case, that is the end of democracy in Britain.

  169. @Maciano
    Richard Spencer is pro-EU, but not pro-current system. He fears that a Brexit might risk the British state to be overtaken by cucks and liberals. This is not unlikely.

    For example, one of #VoteLeave's prime spokesmen, Dan Hannan, goes on and on about the EU's horrific socialism and statism, but he'd be open to welcome migrants from everywhere if the UK is independent. If only we'd stem the inflow of European migrants, there'd be room for them. If you watch "Brexit: The Movie", you'll see this is the opinion of most Brexiters. If immigration is your fear, a Brexit will not save you.

    Now, I think Spencer is too optimistic about the EU's possibility of reform and intent, so I'm in favour of Brexit also. However, Spencer's argument is sound, and a very wise warning.

    @TGGP gives the best formulation of my own argument: smaller states are better in a globalized world. Switzerland should be the model. The Swiss trade with all, are peaceful and have referendums on all important issues (at the local level.)

    “If immigration is your fear, a Brexit will not save you.”

    Whether the Brexiteers are pro-immigration is neither here nor there. A vote for them means that the UK is free to choose its own immigration policy.

    While we are in the EU, our borders are as secure as the worst-defended border in the EU. Merkel’s Millions will soon have the right to travel to the UK. We’ve already seen mass benefit tourism when the entire Somali population of Holland upped sticks to the UK, because the Dutch dispersed them widely whereas the UK allows them to cluster in inner cities.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/1479533/Frustrated-Somalis-flee-Holland-for-the-freedom-of-Britain.html

    • Replies: @Honorary Thief
    A Brexit would be step one in stopping mass immigration. The next step, which would no doubt be easier after the British right has secured a Brexit, would be a change to British immigration law. These things have to be done in increments.
  170. @Randal
    I've been expecting all along that Remain would win by a slim majority, similar to the Scottish referendum recently. I am absolutely committed to escaping from the EU, but I just think the referendum was called too soon, before we had achieved significant Parliamentary representation for the Leave camp. Such a vote will always in Britain tend to stick with the status quo, imo, and especially when the leadership hierarchies of all the mainstream political parties are arguing for that.

    But I have been pleasantly surprised by the strong showing of the Leave campaigners in the polls. It seems clear they have won the arguments and shifted opinion. It feels like a cruel dangling of hope, though, for me.

    Whatever the result though, it ends nothing. The goal was never to have, or to win, a referendum. The objective was always, and remains, to escape from the birthing United States of Europe before we are faced with only the options available to Carolinans and Virginians in 1861. There's a long way to go from even a reasonably strong Leave victory (55%, say) to actually getting out, when the forces against getting out are so powerful and so entrenched in the business, media and political high ground. A referendum result, of course, is not binding on Parliament. And even then of course, having dealt with the priority threat, we have to face the issues of getting out from under US "influence"......

    It won't be the end, or even the beginning of the end, but it might perhaps be the end of the beginning (to use my favourite political quote yet again).

    Much the same applies, of course, to a defeat for the British patriots, if that is the result tomorrow. The fight goes on, because it must go on. There can be no compromise or acceptance of defeat when the very existence of the nation as an independent entity is at stake.

    I’ve just voted to leave in leafy Surrey.

    Speaking to the butcher whose shop is across from the primary school where the poll is being conducted, he says turnout is much higher than in last year’s general election.

    I hope leave wins – because without it there can be no control of immigration, the anti-democratic authoritarian nature of the EU, its intrusion into all corners of life with excessive regulation. Because it is corporatist and a fetter on small and medium businesses. Because the concept is obsolete, and because of its rank patronising arrogance. I also think it is dangerous – that on current trajectory it will lead to nasty sectarian strife and a Brexit, likely followed by Swedish and Danish exit too, is the best way to de-fang this authoritarian monster.

    The Joe Cox murder and wall-to-wall Lady Di-esque publicity together with the shameless and cynical shroud waving may, I fear, have tipped it for remain. But I’m hoping desperately for a leave majority, but I fear this is wishful thinking on my part.

    One thing is for sure, whichever way it goes, the argument is not over.

    Should remain win. The EU article 50 invocation process which is set to take 2 yrs, is the natural step forward though I doubt it will be invoked immediately. And there will likely be a 2-5 year negotiation, with many opportunities to weasel out of. The EU and our political leaders have much form in this regard.

    If remain wins, there is massive anger in the shires amongst the membership of the Tory party, who are overwhelmingly for leave, towards the leadership of the Tory party and the way they have conducted this campaign. I suspect we may see some blow back.

    For those interested, it’s worth looking at the 12 min speech by Tory Euro MP Daniel Hannan recently at the Oxford Union.

    • Replies: @Randal
    I pretty much share your views on this, I think.

    Whatever the result this referendum will not be the end of anything. I hope you are right that there will be serious ructions in the "Conservative" Party if Remain win (as I still sadly think is most likely). For many reasons, including the EU issue, we need to either replace the leadership hierarchy wholesale in the "Conservative" Party or see it replaced electorally by UKIP (or by something else, if UKIP goes after the traditionalist Labour vote instead). The current situation, in which conservative traditionalists, nationalists and nativists are in effect simply not represented in Parliament at party leadership level is absolutely not acceptable.
  171. @rvg
    Have you people even considered that if UK stays in the EU, at least it gets a large amount of Eastern and Central European immigration to counterbalance whatever Black/Muslim immigration it gets from the Commonwealth, while if it leaves the EU all it will get are immigrants from Commonwealth countries like Pakistan, Jamaica, and Nigeria? But when I consider all of North America, Oceania, and all of Europe west of the Elbe and South of the Danube to be a lost cause already, due to the very large nonwhite youth cohort that will be impossible to get rid of short of full scale genocide.

    at least it gets a large amount of Eastern and Central European immigration to counterbalance whatever Black/Muslim immigration it gets from the Commonwealth

    A high proportion of the mass of migrants entering the EU from the Levant, South Asia and North Africa speak English as a 2nd language, the UK also has especially generous welfare benefits. Consequently we are starting to see many Muslims come over to the UK as secondary immigrants once they secure EU nationality – typically 3-5 yrs. Much of the UK’s Somali community has been promulgated via secondary immigration from the EU.

    Personally I’d like to Blighty starting to have national origins criteria and caps, like the US did and like Israel does. But this is well outside the current Overton window, well into the domain of thoughtcrime in the current ethno-masochistic Zeitgeist.

    This pro-leave poster recently revealed by UKIP caused much pointing and spluttering, pearl clutching and Nazi comparisons.

  172. JSM says:
    @Jefferson
    "There might be a hardcore 10% of the country’s population that goes WN in a decade or so. You might see gangs, etc. trying to take Idaho by attacking nonwhites who enter"

    Literally any Nonwhite who enters? They will not hesitate put a gang beat down on a 90 year old Chinese lady for example?

    Will Adolf Hitler's birthday be a national holiday in this Stormfront WN nation?

    I imagine this nation will mostly be a sausage fest. There is no way half of the population is going to be women.

    Nazi skinhead ideology mostly attracts men.

    Also it will be the poorest White country in the world, because it will mostly attract the White trash underclass.

    Poorest White country? Sure. Cleanest and safest, too? Yep.

    Sausage fest? For a while, ’til us women get there, running as fast as we can to escape the Diversity Utopia.

    And, what’s so bad about sausage fests? The Wild West is a source of rollicking stories for that very reason. As soon as us women showed up and started forming committees, all the fun dried up.

    — Oh, and as you are scaling the wall surrounding Stormfront WN nation to get *IN*, do try to adopt an expression of humility.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "— Oh, and as you are scaling the wall surrounding Stormfront WN nation to get *IN*, do try to adopt an expression of humility."

    Why would I want to immigrate to the poorest White country in the world?

    "Poorest White country? Sure. Cleanest and safest, too? Yep."

    Most of the Whites living in a WN state will be living in poverty, so how will it be the cleanest and safest?

    Poor Whites commit less crime than NAMs, but poor Whites still commit more crime than middle and upper class Whites. You throw alcohol in the mix with poverty and a WN state will end up having a similar crime & murder rate as Russia. Since a WN state would have a disproportionate number of lower class Scots-Irish, a WN state will have as many alcoholics as a Native American reservation. Sounds like quite a depressing place to live, no thanks.
  173. @The Last Real Calvinist

    In fact I sometimes wonder whether the ‘white guilt’ religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities.

     

    I believe this is correct. In the heretical post-Christian religious fervor that fuels all leftist sects, the 'Other' is a pawn, a prop employed in rituals of virtue-signalling and assertion of superiority over unenlightened fellow-white rubes and proles. Only good SWPLs/SJWs possess both moral agency and the essentially gnostic 'true knowledge' of what's Good and Right, so their words and actions are aimed at building up and advertising their identity, i.e. as the culmination of human development -- and as the saviors of the Other.

    Your mention of the nature of the post-Christian left begs the question of what the post-Christian right will look like. My suspicion is that it will necessarily be racialist and eugenicist, along Madison Grant/Lothrop Stoddard lines. We’ve seen a bit of that in this election, with Trump dominating among non-Evangelical Republican voters (the nascent irreligious right). I wonder if Trump’s success is as much a tale of the decline of religion as any of the other explanations put forth so far.

  174. @Anonymous Nephew
    "If immigration is your fear, a Brexit will not save you."

    Whether the Brexiteers are pro-immigration is neither here nor there. A vote for them means that the UK is free to choose its own immigration policy.

    While we are in the EU, our borders are as secure as the worst-defended border in the EU. Merkel's Millions will soon have the right to travel to the UK. We've already seen mass benefit tourism when the entire Somali population of Holland upped sticks to the UK, because the Dutch dispersed them widely whereas the UK allows them to cluster in inner cities.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/1479533/Frustrated-Somalis-flee-Holland-for-the-freedom-of-Britain.html

    A Brexit would be step one in stopping mass immigration. The next step, which would no doubt be easier after the British right has secured a Brexit, would be a change to British immigration law. These things have to be done in increments.

  175. @Tracy
    How trustworthy is the voting system (voting systems?) in Britain? Are there scandals associated with it all as there are in the U.S. with its dead Chicagoans voting Democrat, anomalies favoring Hillary, etc.?

    Not very and yes, probably worse than America.

  176. @Tracy
    In this live coverage, what do "Yes" and "No" mean? "Yes, remain"? "No, remain?" "Yes, leave?" "Yes, remain?"

    Yes leave, no remain.

  177. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    Richard Spencer sees the EU through WASP eyes. He sees Europe’s nations as small and silly. Whatever. He’s generally good on other topics but he’s the Bill Kristol of Brexit.

    • Replies: @Matra
    More German or Russian than WASP.
    , @Joe Walker
    For me, being the "Bill Kristol" of anything means you are an idiot.
  178. Britain doesn’t need Europe but Europe needs Britain. The UK should get out now before there is another tectonic demographic shift in the wrong direction.

  179. @Pittsburgh Thatcherite
    Existing nations, including the European Union, are too large.

    Instead of dozens of large nations, humanity would be better served by hundreds of small nations.

    Small nations are less vulnerable to corruption than large nations.

    Citizens of a small nation are less tolerant of a corrupt leader, because his actions have a great impact on their lives.

    There is less incentive to bribe the leader of a small nation, because there is less wealth to be stolen from a small nation than from a large nation.

    In other words, a small nation has a more responsive feedback loop than a large nation.

    A nation should be connected to other nations by free trade and small numbers of exceptional immigrants, not by completely open borders.

    My experience from living in Chicago is the opposite. In small states, you have to bribe only one person and he usually comes cheap. In a large government, you have to bribe a number of people, and they want a lot. Also in large governments, it may not be clear, who is in charged.
    In Chicago, the company who bought the parking meters has made a fortune. The money goes to the UAE. So if you park in Chicago, you support ISIS.

  180. @rvg
    Hey Asshole where do you suppose the UK will be getting those immigrants if it withdraws from the EU, from Jamaica, Pakistan, and Nigeria.

    Oh, I see. Perpetual immigration is in fact compulsory now? Are you Angela Merkel?
    If the Bremaniacs’ lies about the total implosion of the UK economy if they are defied come to pass (check out Leathery Lagarde’s preposterous threats, if you fancy a bit of a giraffe), then exactly how attractive will the most densely and ridiculously overpopulated country in Europe be, as we fight each other for potato peelings and firewood in dumpsters? Even the Paddies might pack up and leave.

    • Replies: @rvg
    Look you fucking idiot you really think nonwhite immigration will stop when Britain leaves the EU? Or they will just get Nigerians and Jamaicans to replace Polish plumbers? And worst of all Britian will lose access the the European single market, which will mean more lost jobs for White Britons.
  181. @Tracy
    Out! When I was little, my Mom, R.I.P., and I used to sit up at night, eat ice cream sundaes (chocolate sauce and Spanish peanuts!), and plan dream trips to Europe (we finally got to take one once, to France). The beauty and History of the European countries were just magical for us. It makes me so sad to think of what Europe's become -- and becoming. The idea of England, France, Italy, Spain, and Germany being turned into new third world countries is so disgusting, and so preventible. I wish the EU would break up, that sane, Christian forms of nationalism arise in European countries (with race realism but no racism), and that Europeans begin to treasure their heritages, ancestors, ways of life, and the Faith that made Europe what it was.

    Yes I really agree. White nationalism in America needs to be a positive unifying force of whites. I’m happy for other groups to succeed but not at the expense of my own.

    A renewed study of where we as a people came from and a frank discussion of where we, people of European descent, are headed

  182. EU = suicide pact. I hope the old folks show up late and push “leave” over the finish line.

    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of “White Nationalism” breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don’t see why the common denominator of “whiteness” should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    I’m a WN, though I usually choose other terms, like “ethnopatriot.” See above for my take on EU & Brexit.

    Basic nationalist position on melting one’s nation into super-conglomerate = “no.”

  183. @Tiny Duck
    Brevity supporters ate exclusively comprised of old scared white people.

    Also, EU membership ensures prosperity, diversity, trade, and border equity

    Remain will win

    If Brexit is the ‘old and scared’ position, why is the entire Remain campaign based on appealing to fear? Seems to me like the Brexiters are the only ones with any sense of courage or optimism, right or wrong though they might be.

  184. I see fanatical remainer Farmer Eavis is doin’ his bit. Got 180,000 nailed-on Remainer/Don’t Knows marooned in his Glasto swamp today. Can’t see that sort of person having the foresight to mail it in, like he begged them to when they bought tickets. Although subjecting them to high-volume Coldplay at the same time is arguably cruel and unusual, and might land him in the Hague. It’s jolly wet and slimy already, I wonder how many will get dysentery?

  185. @George
    All major decisions are made by NATO, so I don't think Brexit from the irrelevant EU will change anything. On balance the UK might see less border cooperation from France so if the migrants in Calais get out of control France might help them find transport to the newly non EU Britain.

    Are you kidding? NATO makes decisions on a pretty narrow set of issues and if anything Britain carries greater relative weight in it than in the EU as one of only two European members able to do anything of military value.

    The EU has a vastly greater impact on everything from the British economy to social policy to law enforcement and even on non-military national security matters.

    That point about France could be somewhat true.

  186. I hope there’s not dirty BBC work at the crossroads. Wouldn’t put it past them.

    BBC are dirty shits. Just last night they mentioned “the battle for gun control in US.” Nice framing. How about “battle over gun control”? Nah, too neutral.

    Don’t hold your breath waiting for the “battle for lower taxes,” the “battle for the 2nd Amendment,” the “battle for free speech,” etc.

    I suppose it’s natural. Brits see themselves as far more intelligent and civilized than Americans, and since they’ve been disarmed and muzzled, of course those stupid, uncivilized Americans must be disarmed and muzzled.

    • Replies: @celt darnell

    Brits see themselves as far more intelligent and civilized than Americans, and since they’ve been disarmed and muzzled, of course those stupid, uncivilized Americans must be disarmed and muzzled.
     
    Mild correction: some Brits see things this way and they're to be found working at the BBC, the Guardian and the universities.

    Other Britons, who live in the real world, less so.
  187. @BB753
    Exactly, you can't leave the EU without leaving NATO. And the only way to leave NATO is "manu militari ", i. e. with the force of arms.
    Having said that, if they allow Brexit to happen, it will be good news for Britain.

    Why can’t you leave the EU without leaving NATO? There’s no precedent for leaving either, yet, but certainly no evidence for the proposition that leaving one means leaving the other. They aren’t that closely integrated and there are still countries that are members of either without being in the other.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Once you're in NATO, it's a small step to joining the EU. On the other hand, NATO has become the armed branch of the EU. Which means you can never leave either. Without facing NATO military.
  188. @Thin-Skinned Masta-Beta
    Britain shouldn't be given the opportunity to exit on their own, they should be politely ejected by the rest of Europe.

    Rather than trying to make its case while being part of team Europe, Britain has shown that if it can't get its way it takes its ball and goes home. Their uncompromising attitude ruins whatever great potential to take the mantle of leadership there might have been. Whether the Euro currency, Schengen zone, social and employment regulation or foreign policy, Britain has shown that if it can't have its way entirely it will just "opt out." So what is the point of them having a voice at the table if they refuse to use it? What is the point of the rest of Europe accommodating British intransigence and obstruction of the realization of European projects?

    It's unfortunate that Europe finds itself in such a moment of disunity and lack of vision. The most recent history of economic crisis, hegira immivasion and terror should highlight the shared western secular and Christian values that unite the people of European nations. Rather than focusing on the shared values and collective solutions, national leaders have retreated to national politics and catastrophic fractured national measures, such as the invitation of the Merkel youth.

    If Britain narrowly decides to remain tomorrow, European leaders may regret their vigorous efforts to encourage them to vote to stay because British citizens will have shown they are divided and unenthusiastic members of the European project. No matter the outcome of this vote, there will still be years of uncertainty about their role in Europe.

    What could be a civil divorce will sadly remain an unhappy marriage.

    Perfectly valid points from the perspective of anyone who considers the EU identical with the idea of “Europe” [eg phrases like “The Hour of Europe has come!!” or “We need more Europe”], who can speak idealistically of Europe as a “project” or who believes in the ideal of “ever closer union” or a single political union.

    The British people may have been stupid in the 1970s not to have read the founding documents and the writings of the founders closely enough, but that’s not what they were sold back then and not what they voted for in the original referendum. Since then they have been slowly getting the picture of what continental Europeans seem to want [allegedly], realizing it’s maybe not for them, and pushing their governments to take a more nationalistic line with extremely limited success. British elites have long been of two minds, but they have in part seemed to share these sentiments when it suited them.

    Today will be interesting- if this vote had been held 20 years ago leave might have won, or remain might have won because Britons hadn’t seen the worst of it yet. Now I have no idea- they’ve had 20 years more both to see the worst of the EU, to see its many current failings even on its own terms, but also to get another generation simply used to being part of it, rain or shine.

  189. @Gabriel M
    4 observations about from a British born Israeli.

    1) Brexit can't win. Google, Youtube, Facebook and a few others have the ability to influence voter turnout by way more than the margin of victory in the even the most optimistic polls. Given the importance of this referendum to the Cathederal its frankly inconceivable that they won't exercise this power.

    2) This referendum has been useful in distilling the latent divisions in the new politics. Right on millenials have spent the last month repeating IMF propaganda as if it was holy Writ, George Osborne has been calling everyone waysist so much would imagine he was smoking a bong. The Left and the globalists will, of course, try to go back to their phoney "1% way" after this, but it will be much harder after a an orgy of mutual backslapping consisting of ever more lurid attempts to demonstrate their disgust for ordinary indigenous Britons. This of course gives opportunities for a new anti-Left alliance. My preference is that this will take a Misesian free-market form, but, of course, other options are possible.

    3) Similarly this referendum has been useful in separating the good from the crap in the alt-right. What a narcissistic twerp Spencer is. The independence of a millenium old country with arguably the greatest cultural heritage in the world is just some "petty" issue getting in the way of realizing his gaylord fantasies. More broadly, I think this demonstrates the real weakness of the WN variant of alt-right thought. White nationalism is both too broad and too rigid. It can't accommodate "petty" nationalisms that actually mean something to people and so provide a basis for a decent social order, nor can it replace them because it can't deal with the real issue that people actually quite like having a friendly Hindu running the corner shop and, as such, the basis of national identity, of which shared descent must play a part, must accommodate him too. I suggest, and I'm partly trolling here, that Jewish nationalism is a better model. In principle anyone can join, but its really hard, its you not them who gets to pick, and it's understood by all that converts don't make the rules. Now of course, getting to such a model is no easier than just going full white nationalist, arguably even harder, but it's a more desirable destination.

    people actually quite like having a friendly Hindu running the corner shop and, as such, the basis of national identity, of which shared descent must play a part, must accommodate him too.

    Agree. For example, as far as I’m concerned, every damn Gurkha who ever lived is welcome to move to Blighty with their entire clan, as full citizens, and pull down a full pension no questions asked. It’s the inexhaustible reserve army of scab labour and blacklegs, choosy beggars, grifters, panhandlers, and fraudsters, fugitive criminals, self-confessed hostiles and colonists that sticks in our craw. And it’s the EU that is gleefully shoving them in there.

  190. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @EdwardM
    I am under 40 and, having worked most of my life overseas, haven't paid much into social security (but still have had most of my income subject to federal taxation). I have also never had a mortgage. That is, I am just a typical single middle-class white guy who gets the least from our government relative to what I put in.

    I would gladly sign over the miniscule Social Security that I am set to receive, if the system is still operating then, in exchange for eliminating the program, say for everyone under 30, with phased ramp-downs for people 30-50, starting today. (I agree that we can't renege for people who have been paying in their whole lives.)

    But this thread is about Brexit and the U.K. is more socialist than we are, and getting more so all the time, especially if Brexit fails.

    To add to that response:

    Sure, it sounds nice to have a system in which your worst off are well taken care of, but ultimately it’s all a gross utilitarian project that rips away anything but the most shallow, selfish desires of man anyway. Swedes have been living well in a socialist state for decades, and what good has that done them? They have slipped into a horrifying vegetative state from which they might never wake up. They have lost their will to live, and in general any idea of what their lives are about. Socialism begets a system in which Hillary Clinton can give a speech that literally just addresses mundane concerns like college debt while the entirety of the West is on death’s doorstep.

    Has it ever not ended in horrific utilitarian utopianism that attempts to erase everything that is worthwhile about human life in its pursuit of comfort? I struggle to think of an example, and suspect these things are inextricably linked to each other.

  191. @Neoconned
    Stupid idea. A better solution would be keep the Euro and have a coalition of pan European anti immigration parties running the European system.

    Europeans moving from nation to nation is a good idea - it's all the ppl smugglers and the "refugees" who are ruining a pan European system that used to work quite well.

    Even if they leave the EU.....it doesn't mean immigration restrictionists will seize power in parliament. The g lobalists in London could still kick the hothouse door open to immigration and refugees.

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing. At least they tend to be white and Christian. They're preferable to the Hindu-islamic hordes coming from the third world slums.....

    Brexit would close the door to trade between European nations but wouldn't necessarily ban African or Islamic immigration to the U.K.

    The British who delude themselves into thinking they "aeuropean" ignore history and believe in Anglo cultural nonsense with no roots in western history.

    Of course Britain is European. What else could it be? African?

    On the other hand it is not French or German, and it has never been much good at being part of a continental union. England had excellent and close relations with the Frankish empire, but was never going to be part of it.

    On the other hand ‘Anglo cultural nonsense’, along with German, Italian, and French cultures, has been at the top level of driving western history for over a thousand years now. Granted, it kicked into a higher gear in the 18th century, but it contributed a few major things pre-1000 and again in the 16th century before that.

  192. @Gabriel M
    4 observations about from a British born Israeli.

    1) Brexit can't win. Google, Youtube, Facebook and a few others have the ability to influence voter turnout by way more than the margin of victory in the even the most optimistic polls. Given the importance of this referendum to the Cathederal its frankly inconceivable that they won't exercise this power.

    2) This referendum has been useful in distilling the latent divisions in the new politics. Right on millenials have spent the last month repeating IMF propaganda as if it was holy Writ, George Osborne has been calling everyone waysist so much would imagine he was smoking a bong. The Left and the globalists will, of course, try to go back to their phoney "1% way" after this, but it will be much harder after a an orgy of mutual backslapping consisting of ever more lurid attempts to demonstrate their disgust for ordinary indigenous Britons. This of course gives opportunities for a new anti-Left alliance. My preference is that this will take a Misesian free-market form, but, of course, other options are possible.

    3) Similarly this referendum has been useful in separating the good from the crap in the alt-right. What a narcissistic twerp Spencer is. The independence of a millenium old country with arguably the greatest cultural heritage in the world is just some "petty" issue getting in the way of realizing his gaylord fantasies. More broadly, I think this demonstrates the real weakness of the WN variant of alt-right thought. White nationalism is both too broad and too rigid. It can't accommodate "petty" nationalisms that actually mean something to people and so provide a basis for a decent social order, nor can it replace them because it can't deal with the real issue that people actually quite like having a friendly Hindu running the corner shop and, as such, the basis of national identity, of which shared descent must play a part, must accommodate him too. I suggest, and I'm partly trolling here, that Jewish nationalism is a better model. In principle anyone can join, but its really hard, its you not them who gets to pick, and it's understood by all that converts don't make the rules. Now of course, getting to such a model is no easier than just going full white nationalist, arguably even harder, but it's a more desirable destination.

    I suggest, and I’m partly trolling here, that Jewish nationalism is a better model. In principle anyone can join, but its really hard, its you not them who gets to pick, and it’s understood by all that converts don’t make the rules. Now of course, getting to such a model is no easier than just going full white nationalist, arguably even harder, but it’s a more desirable destination.

    I agree entirely. Israel is a great model to for us to look at.

  193. @rvg
    Well the way I analyze this is: under EU rules at least a significant portion of incoming EU immigrants to Britain that come to fill up the deficit of labor will be white Eastern Europeans, which will at least somewhat balance the nonwhite immigration coming from places like Nigeria, Pakistan, and Jamaica, if the UK withdraws from the EU, this source of white migration will be cut off, and then the UK will have to increase immigration for the Commonwealth to help compensate for cutoff flow of cheap labor from the EU, a significant portion whom at least are white, plus Eastern Europeans are more right wing than their white British counterparts. Basically, assume that 100000 white Eastern Europeans come in every year under EU, this will at least counterbalance somewhat the 300000 immigrants that come in from the Commonwealth, now if Britain leaves the Eu this supply of White Eastern Europeans will be cut off. Now if British that the demographics it had in 1955 this flow from Eastern Europe will not be necessary, but considering White Britain's present demographics predicament, this flow from Eastern Europe will at least go some way to counterbalance Commonwealth immigration.

    a significant portion of incoming EU immigrants to Britain that come to fill up the deficit of labor will be white Eastern Europeans,

    only if the wage arbitrage which makes this possible and attractive is perpetuated. In other words, the min. wage differentials between UK and A8 (former soviet bloc) countries, in some cases a ratio of 5:1 or more, is maintained, along with much lower living costs and prices in the labour-exporting provinces of the EU. When that levels out, even the Poles will mysteriously become as “lazy” as the Brits.
    Perpetual helotry. I doubt the new chums will stand for that for long. Hence the relentless expansion and drang nach osten of the EU Ponzi, into increasingly wretched and beggarly territories in search of new peons.
    But, as we all know, this behaviour is causing a noticeable and resented decline in the living standards of western proles, and soon the dismantling of national welfare states due to funding difficulties (the 0.1%-ers wet-dream; and mine, incidentally, for completely different reasons).
    Do I hear tumbrils?

  194. agree–smaller nations serve the citizens better.

    And larger nations serve plutocrats and big corporations better.

    Why?

    Larger nations have diversity in geography. The voting districts are larger and therefore more diverse. Smaller districts, less diversity. In general.

    The most fundamental problem with centralization is lack of diversity (of the good kind); too few people ruling over too many. The most salient manifestation is in the rewards of corruption; the more centralized a gov’t, the more you can buy with a bribe. Bribing one legislature and one bureaucracy in DC is easy. Buying 50 legislatures and 50 bureaucracies in 50 states is a nightmare.

    Centralization herds all the pols into one place where they can all form a single, corrupt culture, bribers have them all within walking distance.

  195. If Britain leaves, will they be allowed free speech or will they keep the draconian EU style prohibitions against criticizing various groups?

    • Replies: @Matra
    No. But it is normally easier to change laws nationally than at the level of the EU. Also it means any new speech restrictions from the EU that glide through unnoticed and unchallenged will not automatically apply to Britain.
  196. Same with the Catholic Church. Sure, in some ways it’s nice to have a single, huge bureaucracy with weight to throw around. But you get a bad, corrupt, insane, or treacherous Pope, and you’ve got serious problems. Impossible to subvert Judaism or Protestantism in this way.

  197. @Verymuchalive
    The correct method of withdrawal should be Flexit, not Brexit. See the excellent Eureferendum website, run for many years by Dr Richard North. You're usually quite sharp on these matters, Steve, so it's surprising you've not referred to it.
    Richard Spencer is merely one of a large number of persons and organisations, religious, social, political, who project their hopes, beliefs, fantasies onto the EU. The Roman Catholic Church beatified Robert Schumann and were apparently considering Jean Monet and Konrad Adenauer, all architects of the EU. In some RC circles, it was hoped that the EU would presage a new Holy Roman Empire. WRONG
    Spencer is not alone in thinking that the EU could be used for White Nationalist purpose. Step forward David Irving. WRONG AGAIN.
    The best history in English about the History of the EU is The Great Deception by Christopher Booker and Richard North ( see above ), both LEAVERS, needless to say.
    Read the book, Steve, if you want a proper understanding of this very strange entity, much stranger than the original Holy Roman Empire

    Spencer is not alone in thinking that the EU could be used for White Nationalist purpose. Step forward David Irving. WRONG AGAIN.

    And spectacularly so! It beggars belief that an ostensibly politically aware White person could believe something so obviously wrong. Empirically, we can see that the EU is evil, and theoretically we knew that it would be.

  198. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    Richard Spencer is against Brexit because he’s ignorant of what the EU is about.

    In short, he’s ignorant.

    If you really think the EU is in any way a form of solidarity among white Europeans, ask yourself why all European nationalists oppose it.

    If you’re in favour of non-white immigration into Europe you’re almost always pro-EU.
    If you oppose non-white immigration into Europe, you’re almost always anti-EU.

    It’s not difficult.

  199. @Neoconned
    Which is why a pan European front of immigration restriction parties would be a better solution than some romantic revisionist view of English history as some kind of unique unEuropean Elizabethan state.

    How about the romantic revisionist view of America as somehow different from the European nations?

  200. @Tiny Duck
    Brevity supporters ate exclusively comprised of old scared white people.

    Also, EU membership ensures prosperity, diversity, trade, and border equity

    Remain will win

    Yes it’s true, we supporters of brevity exclusively ate old, scared white people.

    I suspect you are thinking of someone else.

  201. @PiltdownMan
    I'd buy this, if they would export it.

    http://www.nestle.co.uk/brands/chocolate_and_confectionery/boxed/blackmagic

    Nestle is Swiss.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    Black Magic chocolates are a British middle class classic, produced by Rowntree's, and then Rowntree & Mackintosh for decades. The company was swallowed in a hostile takeover by Nestle in the late '80s. Nestle kept the brand for a while. As far as I know, the chocolates are still made in Britain, although many of the old flavors are not included in the Nestle branded offering.
  202. @AndyBoy
    The irony: If Britain doesn't vote to leave the EU, it won't be ruled from Brussels. It will rather be ruled from Mecca.

    No institution has done more to promote the rule of Mecca than the EU.

    Getting out is the only way to halt the Muslim invasion.

  203. @anon

    Brits disliking Romanians is one thing.
     
    Roma. The media won't say that because of PC so they say Romanian instead.

    (Roma > Romanian in PC victim hierarchy)

    Roma. The media won’t say that because of PC so they say Romanian instead.

    (Roma > Romanian in PC victim hierarchy)

    “Roma” itself is a PC replacement for “Gipsy” or “Gypsy”.

  204. @Fredrik
    That could have been true if it wasn't for the vilification of Polish workers.

    I agree that everyone needs to separate between Romanians and Gypsies but it's the English that don't want to. Too bad.

    I don't particularly like the EU but I dislike the English press and their lies even more. Most of what they say EU (or Jean-Claude Juncker) say/want are lies or misrepresentations of the actual message. I also dislike "Project Fear" because Leave are quite good at reading the press and then interpreting everything the most hysterical way possible.

    Just take Turkey and the agreement with them. What's been discussed is visa free travel to the EU. It's bad but it's not a membership. There are membership discussions with Turkey but they will never succeed. The real sick part of the Leave arguments is that Britain is Turkey's biggest fan in the EU.

    Another problem with Leave is that we know what they're against but not what they're for. A lot of people on the European continent interpret parts of the Leave message as positive for White nationalists. I disagree due to that the migration discussion is about European workers, not about yet another person from the sub-continent. Non-EU immigration is higher than EU immigration but only one of these worries the English.

    I can live with both Remain and Leave.

    The English press lies no more than the European press.

    Indeed, at least the English press offers different points of view. Every single European paper I have ever come across reads like a press release from the European Commission.

    As for “hysteria” the Remainders’ Project Fear is one big shriek of hysteria.

    You’re not British, so you’re probably working in a second language, so I’ll keep this polite.

    Everyone in the UK knows by “immigration” we’re referring to the Third World Invasion taking place. However, if the leavers come out and say that, they’ll be tagged as “racists”, the second coming of the BNP and, indeed, will be silenced by legal action. Farage is something of a genius by publicly identifying European immigration while clearly referring to Muslim immigration (see the poster he stood in front of — no white people).

    The fact remains that the people who have instituted and promoted the policy of allowing Muslims into the UK are all pro-Europeans. It was Tony Blair who opened the floodgates; it’s Cameron who won’t shut them.

    Unless this lot are cleared out — and they won’t be so long as we are in the EU — the invasion will continue.

    If you’re anti-immigrant you’re voting Brexit.
    If you’re pro-immigrant you’re voting remain.

    I hope that’s cleared things up for you.

  205. @NickG
    I've just voted to leave in leafy Surrey.

    Speaking to the butcher whose shop is across from the primary school where the poll is being conducted, he says turnout is much higher than in last year's general election.

    I hope leave wins - because without it there can be no control of immigration, the anti-democratic authoritarian nature of the EU, its intrusion into all corners of life with excessive regulation. Because it is corporatist and a fetter on small and medium businesses. Because the concept is obsolete, and because of its rank patronising arrogance. I also think it is dangerous - that on current trajectory it will lead to nasty sectarian strife and a Brexit, likely followed by Swedish and Danish exit too, is the best way to de-fang this authoritarian monster.

    The Joe Cox murder and wall-to-wall Lady Di-esque publicity together with the shameless and cynical shroud waving may, I fear, have tipped it for remain. But I'm hoping desperately for a leave majority, but I fear this is wishful thinking on my part.

    One thing is for sure, whichever way it goes, the argument is not over.

    Should remain win. The EU article 50 invocation process which is set to take 2 yrs, is the natural step forward though I doubt it will be invoked immediately. And there will likely be a 2-5 year negotiation, with many opportunities to weasel out of. The EU and our political leaders have much form in this regard.

    If remain wins, there is massive anger in the shires amongst the membership of the Tory party, who are overwhelmingly for leave, towards the leadership of the Tory party and the way they have conducted this campaign. I suspect we may see some blow back.

    For those interested, it's worth looking at the 12 min speech by Tory Euro MP Daniel Hannan recently at the Oxford Union.

    I pretty much share your views on this, I think.

    Whatever the result this referendum will not be the end of anything. I hope you are right that there will be serious ructions in the “Conservative” Party if Remain win (as I still sadly think is most likely). For many reasons, including the EU issue, we need to either replace the leadership hierarchy wholesale in the “Conservative” Party or see it replaced electorally by UKIP (or by something else, if UKIP goes after the traditionalist Labour vote instead). The current situation, in which conservative traditionalists, nationalists and nativists are in effect simply not represented in Parliament at party leadership level is absolutely not acceptable.

  206. @Anonymous
    I am a Finnish nationalist. I care more about Finns than I care about other people. And I care more about Europeans ("whites") than non-Europeans. "Concentric loyalties" I believe is the term.

    I certainly don't want to fill my country with Iraqis, Somalis, or Afghanis, but neither do I want to fill it with immigrants from other European countries. Of course, if it must happen, I'd much rather have European immigrants. But I'd rather not.

    Spencer says a lot of stupid shit about the EU and ethnic nationalists (he refers to us as "petty nationalists"). He sounds almost as bad as anti-nationalist open borders advocates. He's just plain wrong about many things, e.g. saying that the EU has nothing to do with the refugee/immigration disaster, that the nation states are wholly at fault. For one, the so-called "freedom of movement" (i.e. lack of border controls) within the EU is a huge reason for it. The vast majority of the asylum seekers simply wouldn't be able to reach their desired destinations in Northern Europe without it. We Finns wouldn't have gotten 32,000+ asylum seekers last year without it. Spencer is just an ignorant armchair general with no skin in the game.

    I hope that Brexit happens. It should make the federalists who control the EU less arrogant, less utopian, and less aggressive about pushing their stupidity on Europeans. It's no panacea, but it's a step in the right direction.

    “Concentric loyalties” is a confused and inaccurate and misleading concept. Nobody, whether extreme animal rights supporting liberal or ethnic nationalist or racialist, has “concentric loyalties”:

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Well, I have to disagree. And of course the animal rights supporting liberals don't have concentric loyalties, but leapfrogging loyalties, like Steve calls it.
    , @Lagertha
    I can't even.....

    Took a swim (1st for the season in the Atlantic!!!) at "surfer's cove" at Henlopen State Park, this past sunset (Wed.) with my son - it was sublime - until, some of the fishermen/surfers said they hooked a "baby" white, 200 lb.er, shark! My message to the squad: enjoy every sunset. Enjoy your young people who love you, and, who you love. Family, of any kind, is your family/it's life-the meaning of life...the most important thing for you. The beaches of NJ and NC & SC are also, so amazing right now (and, anywhere else across the world - duh, it's summer!) ...........but, I'm a bit weirded out, as a Finn, that there are some other "finns" looking for food on the Eastern SeaBoard?!?
  207. @random observer
    Why can't you leave the EU without leaving NATO? There's no precedent for leaving either, yet, but certainly no evidence for the proposition that leaving one means leaving the other. They aren't that closely integrated and there are still countries that are members of either without being in the other.

    Once you’re in NATO, it’s a small step to joining the EU. On the other hand, NATO has become the armed branch of the EU. Which means you can never leave either. Without facing NATO military.

  208. @Cagey Beast
    Richard Spencer sees the EU through WASP eyes. He sees Europe's nations as small and silly. Whatever. He's generally good on other topics but he's the Bill Kristol of Brexit.

    More German or Russian than WASP.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    No, Richard Spencer is very WASP on this topic. He says the same thing State Department, CIA & OSS guys have said as far back as when those institutions actually were run by WASPs.
  209. @Thea
    If Britain leaves, will they be allowed free speech or will they keep the draconian EU style prohibitions against criticizing various groups?

    No. But it is normally easier to change laws nationally than at the level of the EU. Also it means any new speech restrictions from the EU that glide through unnoticed and unchallenged will not automatically apply to Britain.

  210. There were heavy rains in portions of London this afternoon. I hope it kept turnout down, which I think will favor Brexit.

  211. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    This is precisely why I and many other people of Irish Catholic ancestry oppose British rule in Ireland. Just because British Protestants are white does not mean that they should rule over Irish Catholics in Ireland.

  212. @Cagey Beast
    Richard Spencer sees the EU through WASP eyes. He sees Europe's nations as small and silly. Whatever. He's generally good on other topics but he's the Bill Kristol of Brexit.

    For me, being the “Bill Kristol” of anything means you are an idiot.

  213. https://www.unz.com/efingleton/brexit-whose-interests-does-the-bank-of-englands-ardently-pro-eu-governor-really-serve/

    A reasonable guess is that the many economic pluses and minuses of a Brexit decision would broadly balance out. The fact is that a post-Brexit UK would enjoy enormous bargaining power to negotiate an even more favorable free-trade deal with Brussels than that already enjoyed by such super-prosperous non-EU nations as Switzerland and Norway. Thus the Brexit option is less a matter of economic consequences than political ones,

    IThe EU started as custom union for incorporating the UK into a non German dominated Europe. But a united Germany is too much for the France to control, as De Gaulle forsaw. Leave the EU now or we are trapped. After the entirely predictable deindustialiseation of Britain they’ll come for the City . Cameron’s demands were all for freedom for his banker pals, but those concessions will be worthless in the long run. The geopolitical case for staying in is weak. Given the way it’s forced to keep expanding eastwards in search of ultimate security, sooner the EU will end up in a war. A big one.

  214. @JSM
    Poorest White country? Sure. Cleanest and safest, too? Yep.

    Sausage fest? For a while, 'til us women get there, running as fast as we can to escape the Diversity Utopia.

    And, what's so bad about sausage fests? The Wild West is a source of rollicking stories for that very reason. As soon as us women showed up and started forming committees, all the fun dried up.

    --- Oh, and as you are scaling the wall surrounding Stormfront WN nation to get *IN*, do try to adopt an expression of humility.

    “— Oh, and as you are scaling the wall surrounding Stormfront WN nation to get *IN*, do try to adopt an expression of humility.”

    Why would I want to immigrate to the poorest White country in the world?

    “Poorest White country? Sure. Cleanest and safest, too? Yep.”

    Most of the Whites living in a WN state will be living in poverty, so how will it be the cleanest and safest?

    Poor Whites commit less crime than NAMs, but poor Whites still commit more crime than middle and upper class Whites. You throw alcohol in the mix with poverty and a WN state will end up having a similar crime & murder rate as Russia. Since a WN state would have a disproportionate number of lower class Scots-Irish, a WN state will have as many alcoholics as a Native American reservation. Sounds like quite a depressing place to live, no thanks.

  215. @al gore rhythms
    I agree. Richard Spencer's White nationalism is a product of the European melting pot of America, but there is no evidence that it is particular or culturally specific enough to be able to create a deep-rooted sense of identity that tugs at the heart in the way that being English or French does. In fact I sometimes wonder whether the 'white guilt' religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities. But whether that is the case or not, it is a mistake to transplant the racial situation of the New World onto Europe, which, while there are paralells, is also quite different.

    In reality the EU is bad for whites and bad for European civilisation. One only has to look at the enemies ranged against the Brexit vote--Obama, Merkel, the IMF. It's like a who's who of ISteve.

    The EU is a Utopian dream, as was the Soviet Union. Totalitarian societies are created by people who, like Merkel with her refugees--'if I can't do this then this isn't my Germany' believe so strongly in the goodness of their own feelings and instincts that it allows them to over-rule any law or restriction that stands in their way. If you accept the logic of the EU then you will probably accept the logic of a one world government and the steamrollering of race, culture, family, and morality that this will carry in its wake by those who will will enfore their rule with ruthless piety. For me a world stripped of all the glorious quirks of human culture for the sake of global capital and leftist religion is a nightmare not a fantasy. It's like wanting to see all the rainforests and all its natural wonders pulled up and covered in tarmac. I want the globalists to lose, and it can't come soon enough.

    So I'm voting to leave.

    Richard Spencer’s White nationalism is a product of the European melting pot of America, but there is no evidence that it is particular or culturally specific enough to be able to create a deep-rooted sense of identity that tugs at the heart in the way that being English or French does.

    You’re very correct in saying his perspective is a uniquely American one, which, as far as I know, he does not much ruminate on. I can relate to it as an American under 35; with apologies here, intra-European ethnic squabbles seem petty to me reflexively. (Though intellectually, I get it.)

    In our regrettably globalist world, however, isn’t the American experience in these matters increasingly relevant?

    In fact I sometimes wonder whether the ‘white guilt’ religion of white liberals in American society is itself a curious attempt to create a racial identity in a land where whites have lost much of their old European national and regional identities.

    How do we then explain the angle from which a very French Pascal Bruckner’s critique on the West’s guilt comes from? Or the SNP supporting mass immigration? Or the Swedish penchant for ethnomasochism? “White guilt” is not at all unique to Americans.

  216. @Svigor

    I hope there’s not dirty BBC work at the crossroads. Wouldn’t put it past them.
     
    BBC are dirty shits. Just last night they mentioned "the battle for gun control in US." Nice framing. How about "battle over gun control"? Nah, too neutral.

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the "battle for lower taxes," the "battle for the 2nd Amendment," the "battle for free speech," etc.

    I suppose it's natural. Brits see themselves as far more intelligent and civilized than Americans, and since they've been disarmed and muzzled, of course those stupid, uncivilized Americans must be disarmed and muzzled.

    Brits see themselves as far more intelligent and civilized than Americans, and since they’ve been disarmed and muzzled, of course those stupid, uncivilized Americans must be disarmed and muzzled.

    Mild correction: some Brits see things this way and they’re to be found working at the BBC, the Guardian and the universities.

    Other Britons, who live in the real world, less so.

  217. @Anonymous

    For example, over 600,000 Polish citizens are resident in the UK. Its unlikely they ( or any other national or ethnic group) is going to vote in favor of a result that could lead to their deportation or deny them government benefits.
     
    I understand that among non-British EU nationals, only Irish citizens living in Britain are allowed to vote in the referendum - a weird historical thing legacy thing, probably.

    Nevertheless, if comments on Facebook and other internet forums by Poles living in the UK are anything to go by, the Poles are quite a reactionary bunch and give the impression they would vote Brexit if they could.

    Many of the Poles seem to see themselves as unappreciated saviours of Europe with the defeat of the Ottomans at the Battle of Vienna and the defeat of the Soviet Union in the Polish-Soviet war giving them good reason to think this.

    Also, hostility to Poles in the UK is superficial and restricted to people such as builders who have to compete with them.

    All British patriots know about the Polish fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain. I saw a comment on Facebook a few days ago where a fellow Brit asserted we would have lost the Battle of Britain without them, and nobody pointed out there wasn't actually that many of them. Its become the stuff of legend.

    I went to school with kids with Polish names whose dads had fought at Monte Casino or wherever.

    The Polish soldiers, sailors and airmen never went home after WWII, and this is quite possibly the reason why they are held in such high regard and their contribution to the defence of Britain and ultimate victory is somewhat overblown. But I don't begrudge them that.

    I am quite sure if you did confidential interviews with Poles in Britain you would be surprised at what they would say.

    Recent visit to your country. Confirm: the workers in our hotel were all Polish. It was a Novotel. They didn’t even try to speak English to each other.

    In Italy the hotels were staffed by Italians.
    In Germany by Germans.
    In France, they were French. Also black French (is that a term?).
    In Britain, all Eastern European. The airport employees were EE too at Heathrow, some Africans and ME’s as well. Apparently native Britons don’t need these service jobs.

    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted

    Apparently native Britons' don’t need these service jobs wages are next to worthless, if spent in their own country.
     
    FTFY
  218. The polls are closed, but no returns quite yet. http://news.sky.com/watch-live

  219. @Matra
    More German or Russian than WASP.

    No, Richard Spencer is very WASP on this topic. He says the same thing State Department, CIA & OSS guys have said as far back as when those institutions actually were run by WASPs.

    • Replies: @Matra
    I didn't realise the State Department and CIA were WASP. Chas Freeman is probably scratching his head about that. You must have inside information. Do tell. The OSS? lol

    Spencer is married to a Russian imperialist who advocates all the petty nationalism he normally sneers at except she does so from a Russian perspective therefore he isn't concerned! That's why I stopped paying attention to him for a few years. But I did listen to one of his recent podcasts and in it he said he identified more with his German background. He even complained about Britain's historical balance of power foreign policy. All the small nations of Europe prefer that to the the 'Imperium' German/Russian views that would inevitably mean the submission of all the small nations to will of the major powers.

    If the British referendum were exclusively WASP the Leave side would win easily.

    Richard Spencer is almost certainly anti-WASP.

  220. @PiltdownMan

    I dunno but I imagine they’re preferable to the slum hordes of Dehli and Lagos.
     
    The Derb has observed in the past that the "slum hordes from Delhi," i.e. Indian Hindus are assimilating well into middle-class British society, at least economically. He mentioned something about first gen types in Porsches heading off to their investment banking jobs in the City. Indian migration seems to have tapered off in the early 1970s, perhaps after rumors got back about beatings by skinheads? I'm no expert, but that's my impression from reading about it.

    On the other hand, the current problem is that it's the slum hordes from Islamabad, i.e. Pakistani Muslims, who are refusing to assimilate, and routinely import brides, three generations on, from the ancestral farmlands. That seems to be the kernel of the insoluble problem.

    Intermarriage is probably one of the really strong forces toward assimilation. Making it a pain for immigrants to bring people over from the old country to marry might help assimilation along. (Though it might have all kinds of bad effects too.)

  221. @Cagey Beast
    No, Richard Spencer is very WASP on this topic. He says the same thing State Department, CIA & OSS guys have said as far back as when those institutions actually were run by WASPs.

    I didn’t realise the State Department and CIA were WASP. Chas Freeman is probably scratching his head about that. You must have inside information. Do tell. The OSS? lol

    Spencer is married to a Russian imperialist who advocates all the petty nationalism he normally sneers at except she does so from a Russian perspective therefore he isn’t concerned! That’s why I stopped paying attention to him for a few years. But I did listen to one of his recent podcasts and in it he said he identified more with his German background. He even complained about Britain’s historical balance of power foreign policy. All the small nations of Europe prefer that to the the ‘Imperium’ German/Russian views that would inevitably mean the submission of all the small nations to will of the major powers.

    If the British referendum were exclusively WASP the Leave side would win easily.

    Richard Spencer is almost certainly anti-WASP.

  222. @Anonymous
    "Concentric loyalties" is a confused and inaccurate and misleading concept. Nobody, whether extreme animal rights supporting liberal or ethnic nationalist or racialist, has "concentric loyalties":

    https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer/status/745838332035403780

    Well, I have to disagree. And of course the animal rights supporting liberals don’t have concentric loyalties, but leapfrogging loyalties, like Steve calls it.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    If you are going to make things matter, you have to have a lot more fight in you than the lame-ass stuff you just stated - oh, Saatana, you must get your opinions out there for you to have a full debate from the tribunal of WTFEvah since 2000+. Welcome, Finnish friend who is questioning the Status Quo.
    , @Anonymous
    That's the point: nobody, left or right, has "concentric loyalties".
  223. rvg says:
    @Expletive Deleted
    Oh, I see. Perpetual immigration is in fact compulsory now? Are you Angela Merkel?
    If the Bremaniacs' lies about the total implosion of the UK economy if they are defied come to pass (check out Leathery Lagarde's preposterous threats, if you fancy a bit of a giraffe), then exactly how attractive will the most densely and ridiculously overpopulated country in Europe be, as we fight each other for potato peelings and firewood in dumpsters? Even the Paddies might pack up and leave.

    Look you fucking idiot you really think nonwhite immigration will stop when Britain leaves the EU? Or they will just get Nigerians and Jamaicans to replace Polish plumbers? And worst of all Britian will lose access the the European single market, which will mean more lost jobs for White Britons.

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Look you fucking idiot you really think nonwhite immigration will stop when Britain leaves the EU? Or they will just get Nigerians and Jamaicans to replace Polish plumbers?
     
    No! They never get anyone to replace anyone or to serve any purpose other than to dispossess the natives. They simply get as many as they can, and stopping the entry of immigrants from Europe has no connection whatsoever to the number of other foreigners to be imported.
  224. GBP now down 7%, marvelous work gentlemen for something that will not make a jot of difference in the end, after all as Hungary and Austria shows the EU can’t force you to accept refugees if you do not want to.

  225. Just got home at @ 3:30 am – I was counting votes for our area. @53% for Brexit. Apparently Brexit is ahead nationally at @51% so that makes my locale more Brexity than the average but many results still to be declared.

  226. Done and done. All immigrants must go thru the logistical & boring; through the process of their state to get citizenship. All EU countries have a small window of time to think how this will affect them for a lifetime: Can we absorb people, not of our working class culture – the work the jobs (supposedly) we can not find our f*cked up neighbors/parlolees/ brothers/citizens in our our towns to do ? Otherwise, it is a time to shelve that goody-goody attitude of helping. If you have no ideas, btw, don’t fracking pontificate here – uve got nuthin, and, more importantly, you are not an EU citizen.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Sincere request. Please restate and amplify your post. I sense you are making a hugely important point but I don't follow the language and allusions. Thank you.
    , @Lagertha
    There is nothing to add to my post. Personally, every community can help to get some families on to better ground, but no average community can get 100's/1000's of families on to better ground, especially if they have not applied for proper citizenship status/the avenues my parents went through.

    This is the problem of the USA; the MOST open country in the world!!!!!!! Who is going to pay for all the people who want to stream in, but, and, a big BUT, they have no skills, no education? That is indeed huge in 2016...and, it has nothing to do with compassion - 49% of Americans are poor ,in need of social services for subsistence.
  227. @Lagertha
    Done and done. All immigrants must go thru the logistical & boring; through the process of their state to get citizenship. All EU countries have a small window of time to think how this will affect them for a lifetime: Can we absorb people, not of our working class culture - the work the jobs (supposedly) we can not find our f*cked up neighbors/parlolees/ brothers/citizens in our our towns to do ? Otherwise, it is a time to shelve that goody-goody attitude of helping. If you have no ideas, btw, don't fracking pontificate here - uve got nuthin, and, more importantly, you are not an EU citizen.

    Sincere request. Please restate and amplify your post. I sense you are making a hugely important point but I don’t follow the language and allusions. Thank you.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    You can't assume you have some right to remain anonymous, by the way if you are gonna join "our Hunger Games or Laugh-in" ...I am big on fairness, and look down upon someone like you who thinks they are somehow (totally silly and not fool-proof, btw) impervious of anonymity...or ridicule.

    As far as your request: it is quite simple: WITH WORLD-WIDE MIGRATION: THE EU AND NORTH AMERICAN, AUSTRALIAN AND NZ COUNTRIES CAN NOT ABSORB/Afford: uneducated, unskilled, poor, non-multi-lingual people by the thousands every season to their lands. There are not enough simple jobs. Not enough jobs requiring no tech skills/no university-educated jobs. Well, not to mention, we have a whole lot of social edicts that are so far beyond what 3rd worlders can accept, like women's rights, childrens' rights. We don't need/want retrograde cultures into our lands. We don't want chauvinistic/often violent men into our lands/we don't want child-trafficking. Our women rule our men, btw - for centuries. Our men (talking about the Scandi countries mostly) fear our women! Ha, Ha...but really, true.

  228. @Anonymous
    "Concentric loyalties" is a confused and inaccurate and misleading concept. Nobody, whether extreme animal rights supporting liberal or ethnic nationalist or racialist, has "concentric loyalties":

    https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer/status/745838332035403780

    I can’t even…..

    Took a swim (1st for the season in the Atlantic!!!) at “surfer’s cove” at Henlopen State Park, this past sunset (Wed.) with my son – it was sublime – until, some of the fishermen/surfers said they hooked a “baby” white, 200 lb.er, shark! My message to the squad: enjoy every sunset. Enjoy your young people who love you, and, who you love. Family, of any kind, is your family/it’s life-the meaning of life…the most important thing for you. The beaches of NJ and NC & SC are also, so amazing right now (and, anywhere else across the world – duh, it’s summer!) ………..but, I’m a bit weirded out, as a Finn, that there are some other “finns” looking for food on the Eastern SeaBoard?!?

  229. @Anonymous
    Well, I have to disagree. And of course the animal rights supporting liberals don't have concentric loyalties, but leapfrogging loyalties, like Steve calls it.

    If you are going to make things matter, you have to have a lot more fight in you than the lame-ass stuff you just stated – oh, Saatana, you must get your opinions out there for you to have a full debate from the tribunal of WTFEvah since 2000+. Welcome, Finnish friend who is questioning the Status Quo.

  230. @Lagertha
    Done and done. All immigrants must go thru the logistical & boring; through the process of their state to get citizenship. All EU countries have a small window of time to think how this will affect them for a lifetime: Can we absorb people, not of our working class culture - the work the jobs (supposedly) we can not find our f*cked up neighbors/parlolees/ brothers/citizens in our our towns to do ? Otherwise, it is a time to shelve that goody-goody attitude of helping. If you have no ideas, btw, don't fracking pontificate here - uve got nuthin, and, more importantly, you are not an EU citizen.

    There is nothing to add to my post. Personally, every community can help to get some families on to better ground, but no average community can get 100’s/1000’s of families on to better ground, especially if they have not applied for proper citizenship status/the avenues my parents went through.

    This is the problem of the USA; the MOST open country in the world!!!!!!! Who is going to pay for all the people who want to stream in, but, and, a big BUT, they have no skills, no education? That is indeed huge in 2016…and, it has nothing to do with compassion – 49% of Americans are poor ,in need of social services for subsistence.

  231. @celt darnell
    Nestle is Swiss.

    Black Magic chocolates are a British middle class classic, produced by Rowntree’s, and then Rowntree & Mackintosh for decades. The company was swallowed in a hostile takeover by Nestle in the late ’80s. Nestle kept the brand for a while. As far as I know, the chocolates are still made in Britain, although many of the old flavors are not included in the Nestle branded offering.

  232. @Anonymous
    Well, I have to disagree. And of course the animal rights supporting liberals don't have concentric loyalties, but leapfrogging loyalties, like Steve calls it.

    That’s the point: nobody, left or right, has “concentric loyalties”.

    • Replies: @szopen
    Except that everybody reasonable has. My family over rest of Poles, Poles over other Slavs, other Slavs other other Europeans, Europeans over everyone else.
  233. @rvg
    Look you fucking idiot you really think nonwhite immigration will stop when Britain leaves the EU? Or they will just get Nigerians and Jamaicans to replace Polish plumbers? And worst of all Britian will lose access the the European single market, which will mean more lost jobs for White Britons.

    Look you fucking idiot you really think nonwhite immigration will stop when Britain leaves the EU? Or they will just get Nigerians and Jamaicans to replace Polish plumbers?

    No! They never get anyone to replace anyone or to serve any purpose other than to dispossess the natives. They simply get as many as they can, and stopping the entry of immigrants from Europe has no connection whatsoever to the number of other foreigners to be imported.

  234. @stillCARealist
    Recent visit to your country. Confirm: the workers in our hotel were all Polish. It was a Novotel. They didn't even try to speak English to each other.

    In Italy the hotels were staffed by Italians.
    In Germany by Germans.
    In France, they were French. Also black French (is that a term?).
    In Britain, all Eastern European. The airport employees were EE too at Heathrow, some Africans and ME's as well. Apparently native Britons don't need these service jobs.

    Apparently native Britons’ don’t need these service jobs wages are next to worthless, if spent in their own country.

    FTFY

  235. @Anonymous
    Sincere request. Please restate and amplify your post. I sense you are making a hugely important point but I don't follow the language and allusions. Thank you.

    You can’t assume you have some right to remain anonymous, by the way if you are gonna join “our Hunger Games or Laugh-in” …I am big on fairness, and look down upon someone like you who thinks they are somehow (totally silly and not fool-proof, btw) impervious of anonymity…or ridicule.

    As far as your request: it is quite simple: WITH WORLD-WIDE MIGRATION: THE EU AND NORTH AMERICAN, AUSTRALIAN AND NZ COUNTRIES CAN NOT ABSORB/Afford: uneducated, unskilled, poor, non-multi-lingual people by the thousands every season to their lands. There are not enough simple jobs. Not enough jobs requiring no tech skills/no university-educated jobs. Well, not to mention, we have a whole lot of social edicts that are so far beyond what 3rd worlders can accept, like women’s rights, childrens’ rights. We don’t need/want retrograde cultures into our lands. We don’t want chauvinistic/often violent men into our lands/we don’t want child-trafficking. Our women rule our men, btw – for centuries. Our men (talking about the Scandi countries mostly) fear our women! Ha, Ha…but really, true.

  236. @Anonymous
    I am a Finnish nationalist. I care more about Finns than I care about other people. And I care more about Europeans ("whites") than non-Europeans. "Concentric loyalties" I believe is the term.

    I certainly don't want to fill my country with Iraqis, Somalis, or Afghanis, but neither do I want to fill it with immigrants from other European countries. Of course, if it must happen, I'd much rather have European immigrants. But I'd rather not.

    Spencer says a lot of stupid shit about the EU and ethnic nationalists (he refers to us as "petty nationalists"). He sounds almost as bad as anti-nationalist open borders advocates. He's just plain wrong about many things, e.g. saying that the EU has nothing to do with the refugee/immigration disaster, that the nation states are wholly at fault. For one, the so-called "freedom of movement" (i.e. lack of border controls) within the EU is a huge reason for it. The vast majority of the asylum seekers simply wouldn't be able to reach their desired destinations in Northern Europe without it. We Finns wouldn't have gotten 32,000+ asylum seekers last year without it. Spencer is just an ignorant armchair general with no skin in the game.

    I hope that Brexit happens. It should make the federalists who control the EU less arrogant, less utopian, and less aggressive about pushing their stupidity on Europeans. It's no panacea, but it's a step in the right direction.

    yey! Brexit! Ba da bing!

  237. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    From a strange, personal and Finnish perspective: I have always thought that the EU big shots should not have gored the Finnish timber wolf. The Finns have been the perfect EU country (to the perfection of Rubeness that even the Minnesota Finns could not have achieved) – in that, they have followed the rules.

    The GDP loss of 25% from 2+ years long, yearly trade with Russia was the straw that broke the timber wolf’s back. Finland has always been treated as a Rube country (no aristocracy/always a territory of Russia & Sweden) but, you wanna know something?, Brexit gives them that golden chance to save face, not be demonstrative of emotion, and say, “yeah, we’re out too.”

    If Finns are going to pay 20% more taxes per person for all the refugees (who do not assimilate but demand public welfare/services) in the country currently, they gotta get out from under the power of the Galactic Republic so to speak. And, they gottta get back to market with Russia – their economy is tanking, and Putin knows it. Putin, also, does not think the Finns are Rubes. Finns are the ultimate people – they want to left alone to live their lives.

  238. @Anonymous
    That's the point: nobody, left or right, has "concentric loyalties".

    Except that everybody reasonable has. My family over rest of Poles, Poles over other Slavs, other Slavs other other Europeans, Europeans over everyone else.

  239. @MC
    I find it interesting that Richard Spencer is against Brexit, presumably because he sees the EU as a form of solidarity among people of European descent. I guess this is where for me the logic of "White Nationalism" breaks down. I imagine a lot of Brits feel strongly about English or British nationalism, and don't see why the common denominator of "whiteness" should make them want to share a nationality with Italians or Germans.

    I didn’t see anyone, in reply to MC’s comment, deal with Spencer’s central point: the EU controls migration inside the EU, not into the EU. Immigration to the EU is under the complete control of the particular nation to which the migrant is arriving. I don’t even know if that’s strictly true, but the issue should be acknowledged and discussed.

  240. “Concentric loyalties” is a confused and inaccurate and misleading concept. Nobody, whether extreme animal rights supporting liberal or ethnic nationalist or racialist, has “concentric loyalties”:

    But lots of people keep it in mind, and stay in the ball park. Much more sensible than leapfrogging loyalty to prove “I’m rich and powerful enough to do stupid shit.”

    Sure, circumstances on the ground can alter the particulars, but they tend to “snap back to default” sans those circumstances.

    Mild correction: some Brits see things this way and they’re to be found working at the BBC, the Guardian and the universities.

    Other Britons, who live in the real world, less so.

    True, we don’t get many working class Brits on this side of the pond, or on TV.

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