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From Bloomberg:

Women Once Ruled the Computer World. When Did Silicon Valley Become Brotopia?
How the tech industry sabotaged itself and its own pipeline of talent.
By February 1, 2018, 1:00 AM PST

…Today, according to a recent study published by Axios, even famously sexist Wall Street employs a higher percentage of women than tech…. At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer to any young person with a modest intellect and a willingness to live in the Bay Area, women earn just 17.5 percent of bachelor’s degrees in computer science. That percentage has remained flat for a decade.

The tragedy, as I argue in my book, Brotopia, is it didn’t have to be this way. The exclusion of women from technology wasn’t inevitable. The industry, it turns out, sabotaged itself and its own pipeline of female talent.

In tech’s earliest days, programmers looked a lot different from the geeky men we now imagine when we imagine tech workers. In fact, they looked like women. … In 1962, as depicted in the 2016 film Hidden Figures, three black women working as NASA mathematicians helped calculate the flight paths that put John Glenn into orbit.

… A 1967 Cosmopolitan article, “The Computer Girls,” let it be known that “a girl ‘senior systems analyst’ gets $20,000—and up!”—equivalent to making roughly $150,000 a year today. The photo of a real-life female IBM engineer, who wore a dress, pearl earrings, and a short bouffant, appeared alongside the piece. “Women are ‘naturals’ at computer programming,” Hopper told the magazine….

But just as Cosmo was encouraging a broader selection of women to seek fat paychecks in this new field, men, also in search of highly paid jobs, started pushing women out. In the mid-1960s, System Development Corp., a pioneering software company that’s now part of the consultancy Unisys Corp., enlisted two male psychologists to scout recruits. The psychologists, William Cannon and Dallis Perry, profiled 1,378 programmers, only 186 of whom were women. They used their findings to build a “vocational interest scale” that they believed could predict “satisfaction” and therefore success in the field. Based on their survey, they concluded that people who liked solving puzzles of various sorts, from mathematical to mechanical, made for good programmers. That made sense. Their second conclusion was far more speculative.

Based on data they had gathered from the same sample of mostly male programmers, Cannon and Perry decided that happy software engineers shared one striking characteristic: They “don’t like people.” In their final report they concluded that programmers “dislike activities involving close personal interaction; they are generally more interested in things than in people.” There’s little evidence to suggest that antisocial people are more adept at math or computers. Unfortunately, there’s a wealth of evidence to suggest that if you set out to hire antisocial nerds, you’ll wind up hiring a lot more men than women.

Cannon and Perry’s research was influential at a crucial juncture in the development of the industry. In 1968, a tech recruiter said at a conference that programmers were “often egocentric, slightly neurotic,” and bordered on “limited schizophrenia,” also noting a high “incidence of beards, sandals, and other symptoms of rugged individualism or nonconformity.” Even then, the peculiarity of male programmers was well-known and celebrated; today, the term “neckbeard” is used almost affectionately. There is, of course, no equivalent term of endearment for women.

Cannon and Perry’s work, as well as other personality tests that seem, in retrospect, designed to favor men over women, were used in large companies for decades, helping to create the pop culture trope of the male nerd and ensuring that computers wound up in the boys’ side of the toy aisle. They influenced not just the way companies hired programmers but also who was allowed to become a programmer in the first place.

Funny how over the last 50 years no start up ever tried to challenge this stereotype and make lots of money by doing so.

Adapted from Brotopia: Breaking Up the Boys’ Club of Silicon Valley by Emily Chang, to be published on Feb. 6 by Portfolio, an imprint of Penguin Publishing Group, a division of Penguin Random House LLC. Copyright © 2018 by Emily Chang.

 
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  1. I find it funny that they constantly refer to Silicon Valley as “brotopia” where it would probably be better termed “soyboytopia”.

    They should have no problem getting these–ahem–“men”–to roll over and do their bidding.

    • Replies: @Neoconned
    @Matthew Kelly

    This. Like I was telling my Mexican co-worker last yr about white people in California. They're not mean hard drinking rednecks like me. They're pajama boys & that's being nice.

    Anyway, YouTube is on a ban move right now. They've been deleting MGTOW videos left and right. Angry MGTOW had his channel shuttered and all he advocated was celibacy and Japan style nerd otaku antisocial lifestyle living.

    This is all about money. The brogrammers are largely gay or worse rollover white knight zeta males.

    They're too busy working or gaming to take these bimbos out on dates and shower them w attention and free shit.

    The bad boys of California aren't that bad besides a few four ft tall Salvadoran gangbangers. Most of the blacks left in California are either gay or like in LA....of the toothless crazy panhandler derelict variety....

    The Asian gangsters are too busy w their own women. And there just aren't enough white thugs and working class whites left to satisfy the tingles.

    Most of the techies are asexual or gay

    Replies: @anonymous

  2. If I think back to the early to mod 1960s, the only computer programmer my family knew was a woman. She was the unmarried sister of my mother’s brother-in-law (or, my uncle by marriage’s sister). She made a lot of money, and left it all to her niece and nephews. One of her nephews is a computer programmer, who now has a new job. He lost his last job to an H1-B visa worker. Come to think of it, I lost MY previous programming job to an H1-B visa worker. Almost like there is a pattern.

    I think things have very much changed about computer programming in general. In the early days, they often looked for musicians to program. The idea being, (a) they were creative, and (b) they were able to see the big picture better. Such as, an oboe player could understand her role as part of the symphony.

    What has changed?

    At the beginning, computer programming was a less established field and nobody really had any idea where the field was going. That attracted the sort of people who may not have had great opportunities elsewhere, were willing to take a risk at a field where nobody knew if the field would last, and nobody knew if they could support a family out of it. Since many of the original programmers were women and/or musicians, why not look for more smart women and/or musicians?

    At some point, the creativity aspect has given way to the more nerdy engineering and math aspects. The sort of things that attract men, rather than women. There is still creativity, but in a more systematized manner.

    Also, with the reliance on H1-B visas, there is a certain dependence on the cultures of other countries, such as India. I have known a few female Indian programmers, but men greatly outnumber them.

    I have known a few very good female programmers over the years. Those tend to be the women who can think very analytically, and can make it in a more manly profession.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Paleo Liberal


    I think things have very much changed about computer programming in general. In the early days, they often looked for musicians to program. The idea being, (a) they were creative, and (b) they were able to see the big picture better. Such as, an oboe player could understand her role as part of the symphony.
     
    I will say.

    Today, they still look for "musicians" to program, i.e. people who have encountered a few classes of JavaScript, can design websites with good artistic skills, know CSS and think that MongoDB is a database are let loose on backend systems that they barely comprehend and can't design. Because the fundamental knowledge and about 10 years of experience and mentoring to do that are just missing.

    Why is that? These people are plentiful, easy to hire and relatively cheap. The boss thinks the "quick and dirty" solutions will make his life easier. Little does he know that he is now part of a general disaster area of ICT systems that is spreading as we read.

    , @Anonymous
    @Paleo Liberal

    Women were prominent in early computing because they were recruited from the typing pool - operating a computer was seen as little different to operating a typewriter.

    Replies: @Alden, @Chrisnonymous, @Danand

    , @Cortes
    @Paleo Liberal

    The notion that musicians might be useful in computer science may have its origins in...Hollywood TRUTH!

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr

    What a beautiful, clever woman. And the music part is great too.

  3. Emily Chang is a goose. She made a career out of giggly interviews with Silicon Valley titans; now she’s unloading on them with this preposterous book.

    Off-topic (?) Sailer bait:

    FEMA Contract Called for 30 Million Meals for Puerto Ricans. 50,000 Were Delivered.

    https://nyti.ms/2EnaNk5

  4. This whole Hidden Figures mythology is getting annoying. What those women were doing bears virtually no resemblance to what people today consider programming or software development.

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @Cloudbuster

    Hollywood is the Ministry of Truth.

    , @Antlitz Grollheim
    @Cloudbuster

    Programming is not powered by sass and drama?

  5. Funny how over the last 50 years no start up ever tried to challenge this stereotype and make lots of money by doing so.

    In the UK Steve Shirley (a woman) set up a company employing women programmers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Shirley

    OT: Beyoncé’s dad is a race realist.

    Beyonce might not be as successful if she had darker skin, father says

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-5357945/Beyonce-not-successful-darker-skin-father-says.html

    • Replies: @James N. Kennett
    @Sue D. Nim

    I was about to comment on Stephanie Shirley, but you beat me to it!

    To be fair, she began her business when IT was still female-dominated; but she continued hiring women. In fact, she hired only women until this practice was outlawed in the mid-seventies. She also pioneered homeworking. She became very wealthy in the process.

  6. “Unfortunately, there’s a wealth of evidence to suggest that if you set out to hire antisocial nerds, you’ll wind up hiring a lot more men than women.”

    Who other than antisocial nerds would put in the 100-hour weeks that Microsoft and others demanded of them?

    Women have lives. Programmers don’t.

    At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer…

    Huh?

    …to any young person with a modest intellect and a willingness to live in the Bay Area,

    Oh! Important stipulation, where $3,000 a month will get you a walk-in closet with a sink and a commode.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @Reg Cæsar

    It goes farther than that in Ookland.

    Replies: @Roderick Spode

    , @JW
    @Reg Cæsar

    A "modest intellect" also in no ways guarantees a job in the bay area either. Only about 50% of the CS grads from my state university got jobs at a tech company.

    , @Twinkie
    @Reg Cæsar


    Women have lives.
     
    Put another way, women have babies.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Jack D

    , @oddsbodkins
    @Reg Cæsar

    Insane rent and the most female-impoverished dating market in the country.

    Some "brotopia" this is.

  7. I should also add:

    The economy was vastly different in the 1960s.

    Young people looking for jobs in the 1960s were either born during WW II, or else shortly thereafter. The economy was booming. Very little immigration.

    Tons of jobs, very little competition for the jobs.

    It makes sense that a new field, such as computer programming, would tend to look outside the normal parameters for new hires.

  8. Funniest article ever! It will take me a long time to stop laughing today.

    The only necessary retirement for the entire tech sector is that you like to figure things out. Seriously, how many 10 year old girls ever take a watch apart and try to reassemble it? How many 14 year old girls start gearheading in a major way? How many 18 year old women are running off to college going “oh boy, oh boy STEM! What can discover!”. And how far do you have to stick your head up your a$$ not to discover that men like to fix, invent, discover, and just simply play with, all technology? And women, not so much?

    Oh, and btw, techies are not anti-social. THEY ARE ANTI-STUPID!!!!

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    @theMann


    Seriously, how many 10 year old girls ever take a watch apart and try to reassemble it? How many 14 year old girls start gearheading in a major way? How many 18 year old women are running off to college going “oh boy, oh boy STEM! What can discover!”. And how far do you have to stick your head up your a$$ not to discover that men like to fix, invent, discover, and just simply play with, all technology? And women, not so much?
     
    Come on, man, brilliant women program the robot to go faster. Men are stooges, just to tools that enable the women to fly HIGH! It's the women. It's all about the women.

    https://youtu.be/sucKTktHYA8

    https://youtu.be/Co0qkWRqTdM

    Replies: @bartok

  9. At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer to any young person with a modest intellect and a willingness to live in the Bay Area,

    That is a slap in the face to anyone who isnt at the top of the ladder looking down. Victim blaming as usual.

    I suspect female employment in CS was higher in the past because it hadn’t been clearly distinguished from traditionally female jobs like typists, stenographers, and secretaries. Nowadays it has more in common with math than with writing, and math has always been a masculine field. No need to propose an invisible force that repels women and attracts men.

    • Replies: @a boy and his dog
    @Sleep

    Exactly. Back in the day programming meant punching data into cards. It was a kind of transcription work, it had nothing to do with what we call programming now.

    , @Alden
    @Sleep

    When computers first arrived in workplaces in the mid 1960’s, management turned the system over to the steno pool, all women typists.

    But things changed when typing changed to data management.

  10. Big computers, big hair: the women of Bell Labs in the 1960s – in pictures
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/gallery/2016/feb/13/future-women-the-bell-lab-computer-operators-of-the-1960s-in-pictures-women-in-computing

    What happened to the champion of Women tech entrepreneurs and TED talker Elizabeth Holmes?

    Well actually she might have been on to something more than a brain fart. Is it me or is this headline really sexist?

    Theranos Somehow Manages to Snag $100 Million Lifeline
    https://gizmodo.com/theranos-somehow-manages-to-snag-100-million-lifeline-1821563374

    Should read Girl ‘scientist’ Somehow Manages to Snag $100 Million Lifeline (article should detail what she was wearing at investor presentations)

    Whatever her merits Theranos was never a public company, I still am not clear why her persecution was the responsibility of the US government. As near as I can tell someone who expected to inherit the estate of the still living Fmr Sec of State George Schultz did not want granddad investing in girl power projects so he used personal connections to bring the law down on the little lady.

    • Replies: @Jingo Starr
    @George

    Cut out

    Look at former board of directors.

    , @Peterike
    @George

    “Big computers, big hair: the women of Bell Labs in the 1960s – in pictures”

    A lot of women in New Jersey still look like that.

  11. On a dating website around me a woman wrote in her profile:

    “No nerds. I work in tech and it’s unhealthy to think about tech all the time.”

    I felt for her co-workers who actually enjoy obsessing over programming and overcoming challenges. Women are not obsessive enough for these fields, they just desire varied “experiences”.

  12. Steve, I think you’ve said before that programming used to be considered a sort of sideline of secretarial work.

    • Agree: Alden
  13. The Policy Wonk Brain Trust at Vox is slowly starting to realize that their DACA government shut-down trump card may be a bust.

    More tax cuts, anyone?

    Rather than giving the GOP’s most extreme immigration hardliners something they want, Democrats would have to give Republicans who don’t particularly care about immigration something they do care about — a tax cut, a deregulation, a missile shield, whatever.

    https://www.vox.com/2018/2/6/16973962/daca-tax-cuts

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/6/16973762/senate-democrats-daca-shutdown-february-8

    • Replies: @Yak-15
    @Clifford Brown

    The whole DACA snafu the Democrats are trying to pull reminds me of the scene in Blazing Saddles where the black sheriff threatens to off himself if he doesn’t get what he wants.

  14. At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer to any young person with a modest intellect and a willingness to live in the Bay Area,

    After factoring in the cost of living in the Bay Area, does low a low six figure income even qualify for middle class status?

    In 1962, as depicted in the 2016 film Hidden Figures, three black women working as NASA mathematicians helped calculate the flight paths that put John Glenn into orbit.

    They were employed in low level jobs that no longer exist because of advances in technology. How were there limits on who was “allowed” to become a programmer? Can’t anyone who can afford some computer equipment write code on their own?

  15. I’d instead prefer to see FemiLARPing: Breaking Up the Boys’ Club of Silicon Valley. The worthless stale pale males built it up, now we strong independent women and POCs get to feast.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Pericles

    Exactly, like a pack of Hyenas attacking the hunters who brought down an elephant.

  16. I was a kid when the Apple II was released. I loved programming it and so did my brother and so did a lot of other nerds at our school. We had no adult role models and no expectation of getting a good job doing it some day. We just loved it even though (I assure you) at the time it was not cool. I knew no girl our age who felt the same way.

    The idea that we were influenced by the unintended consequences of a psychological study from 1968 is kind of silly.

    Here’s a different hypothesis or two. In the early days computers were slow shared resources so they were frustrating to people like me but seemed like a perfect spot for bigcorp to place women. Then computers got faster and smaller and cheaper and everyone could have his own to tinker with on his own time. Naturally this lead to a concentration of people who were interested in them.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @Erik L

    I remember in the early 80s, when a whole range of PCs became affordable, seemingly overnight - Apple, Apricot, Commodore and others I've forgotten. There were two stores near me with shelves of these weird and wonderful brands.

    There were older people browsing and buying, apparently for business purposes, some of whom may have been women. And teenage boys loitering and fiddling, I don't remember seeing any girls around my age at all and when friends suggested going to these places it was always the boys, the girls never seemed to show any interest or propose the idea.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  17. Ultra leftist feminists vs ultra leftist computer nerds (because even the Silicon Valley foot soldiers are overwhelmingly left wing), ideally these two forces are equally strong and fight each other for a very long time. Add in the race grievance industry looking for their cut from Silicon Valley, and one can hope that Silicon Valley is facing its demise.

  18. Women *never* ruled the computer world. They were mostly employed as glorified data entry clerks.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
    • Replies: @Alden
    @Zoodles

    I remember those days, from clerk typist to data entry.

  19. The staff in Feynman’s computing group at Los Alamos were almost all women. But that was before we had H-1B cheap labor from India.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @MG

    Are you sure? I remember reading in one of Feynman's books that the group of "computers" he was in charge of consisted of male draftees who had done well in high school math. Because of secrecy, at first they didn't tell them what they were working on and just told them, military style, "Add up these columns of figures, that's an order." And they were going very slowly, playing pranks on each other, not getting stuff done, acting like bored 18 year olds. So Feynman got permission to tell them a little about what they were doing and he gave them a few lessons on the problems they were trying to solve so they understood what those rows of figures meant and what they were trying to optimize. Once he did that, their productivity exploded - they figured out all kinds of clever shortcuts, ways to work in parallel, color coding the card decks (they had punch card tabulators which were a sort of mechanical computer that used the same punch cards that survived into the computer age), etc. They competed with each other to see who was the fastest, etc. Because they were really bright and competitive white guys and that's the kind of stuff that young white guys do when you turn them loose at a problem.

    I'm sure that if the computers were all female they would have sat patiently and added up those figures all day long and would not have changed a thing.

    Replies: @Richard of Melbourne, @MG

    , @Brutusale
    @MG

    Given Feynman's reputation as a rake, he was probably schtupping half of them.

  20. Well they could have gone to any college in the country with a computer science department and noticed that when people self-select for their interests, women don’t seem to be all that much interested in CS or engineering in general. In addition, very few of the women who do are exceptional at it.

    Yes, companies could have accepted all those resumes of recent grads in gender studies for their open programming recs and hired them instead of those with CS degrees. Imagine the wants ads: Wanted programmer to design build and test programs relating complex modeling projects. Special consideration given to candidates with no mathematical, physics, engineering or programming background and students who understand the patriarchy.

  21. • Replies: @Corn
    @Rosamond Vincy

    I saw this coming a few weeks ago. It’s sad too. Alot of predatory guys who should get nailed will skate because the public is tired of endless “my boss is a jerk” or “I had a bad date” type whines.

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

  22. This gave me a weird flashback to our family’s 1970’s Xmas Eve parties wherein my dad’s cousin’s wife would talk about working for IBM as a programmer. All the men in our family were machinists and electricians, loggers and railroad workers, so she seemed super smart to us, a real nerd.

  23. At IBM in the 60s, girls did coding jobs that involved monkey coding to a very highly detailed and unambiguous spec that somebody else wrote to very highly detailed and unambiguous requirements that somebody else wrote up. Ditto NASA.

    I’ve spent 22 years in the field prying ambiguous requirements out of end users (or simply figuring it out myself, in cases where no end users yet exist and no potential end users were available) and writing my own rough specs, when the schedule allowed, them changing everything in mid stream when better information became available.

    Very few girls enjoy being thrown into a locked room and told to come back six months or a year later with a feature or product ready for beta testing. They overwhelmingly prefer performing clearly defined tasks in a prescribed manner. They do OK at giant, highly bureaucratic IT shops where initiative and imagination aren’t welcome. “Use your own best judgement” makes them all fluttery and scared, with a tiny number of exceptions. The male and female curves for “f*** off and let me write it” look like the curves for upper body strength.

    The girls are fine if you can afford an elaborate infrastructure to do all their thinking for them.

    But that’s not where the action is in software.

    What happened to the industry with all those girls quietly and obediently coloring inside the lines all day in the 60s?

    Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson and Bill Joy happened to it. Nasty patriarchal hierarchical bad boys, going off on their own and decentralizing everything without even asking permission from upper management at a giant corporation. So totally like oppressive.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Wilbur Hassenfus

    Agree.

  24. @Reg Cæsar

    "Unfortunately, there’s a wealth of evidence to suggest that if you set out to hire antisocial nerds, you’ll wind up hiring a lot more men than women."
     
    Who other than antisocial nerds would put in the 100-hour weeks that Microsoft and others demanded of them?

    Women have lives. Programmers don't.

    At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer...
     
    Huh?

    ...to any young person with a modest intellect and a willingness to live in the Bay Area,
     
    Oh! Important stipulation, where $3,000 a month will get you a walk-in closet with a sink and a commode.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @JW, @Twinkie, @oddsbodkins

    It goes farther than that in Ookland.

    • Replies: @Roderick Spode
    @AndrewR

    *West Oakland. But then you have to live there.

  25. Conservatives, libertarians and some economists sometimes use the Gary Becker market model of discrimination to suggest that economic agents would be going against their own self-interest(i.e. $20 bills on the sidewalk that nobody picks up). A corollary to that is that if group x is so talented what are they producing on their own independent of the dominant native group?
    The response is often that the dominant group is somewhat keeping group x from any autonomous action. The best response is Jews in banking before the cultural deluge of the 60’s. Not to mention the other parallel institutions Jews erected outside of Waspdom.

    What is noteworthy is the complete absence of women in the role of entrepreneurial startup star. Aside from Elizabeth Holmes of course.

  26. Isn’t the author/her book a sort of meta-testimony for the opposition? Meaning, instead of making any meaningful contribution to machine learning, quantum computing, cryptography, etc., Miss Amy Chua-lite (Amy Chua herself being the daughter of a legendary electrical engineering professor) takes the easier path of whining and moaning her way to her own paltry bit of fame and fortune- i.e. becomes a SJW journalist?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Abe


    Miss Amy Chua-lite
     
    That’s an insult to Amy Chua, who is clearly smarter, more successful, and has produced actual works of substance (before the Tiger Mom infamy).

    Replies: @academic gossip, @Abe, @Chuck

    , @Neoconned
    @Abe

    https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2016/06/11/103707549-GettyImages-113198739.530x298.jpg?v=1465626414

    Miss Chua has aged very well. I can't tell her & her daughters apart....

  27. That was so much bullshit that I was very close to writing a blasphemous phrase on here. (You probably know which one, if you feel the same way, as it comes out naturally.)

    That’s this “journalist””s idea of data to use on the demographics of computer programmers in the 1960’s? Cosmo magazine articles and one modern-day movie, what’s it “Hidden Agenda”? How stupid does she take us all for? Some people, believe it or not, were around then, and some others can read statistical charts.

    The tragedy, as I argue in my book, Brotopia, is it didn’t have to be this way.

    Nope, that’s not the tragedy. The tragedy is that 50 years of feminism have put our society into a state where someone who states the obvious is considered a reactionary freak.

    That’d be yours truly – it’s a tragedy that women lead lives that their bodies and souls were not made for and make men’s lives miserable in the workplace and at home to do it. Women were made to have babies and raise them, and they are happiest when doing so. Men are happier when the women in society are not competing for money, as the men will need it to raise a family or be desirable for starting one. They are happier when their own women are at home taking care of children and all the other stuff that makes it a good home.

    Don’t believe women were made for having babies? Ask your p__is – it begs to differ.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Achmed E. Newman


    That’s this “journalist””s idea of data to use on the demographics of computer programmers in the 1960′s? Cosmo magazine articles and one modern-day movie, what’s it “Hidden Agenda”? How stupid does she take us all for?
     
    In the Current Year, Hollywood Movies and Articles from Cosmopolitan provide all the evidence we need, and then some. If you weren't so racist and sexist, you'd see that. Rather than making incendiary and outrageous assertions and appeals to reason and fact, which themselves are notoriously racist and sexist.

    The measure of validity for any given set of evidence is not found within its actual source material but among its implications and support for our favored narratives. Hope this clears things up for you, white man.

  28. Anonymous [AKA "TheMediumIsTheMasseuse"] says:

    Since when is “Neckbeard” affectionate? It’s always been meant as an insult.

    On a separate note, what’s with the mentions of the industry “sabotaging” itself? Because if this article is correct then in the years since Silicon Valley decided to become a boys club it has turned into one of the most wildly successful human endeavours ever. That seems like more of an argument for the opposition.

    • LOL: ScarletNumber
  29. > The exclusion of women from technology wasn’t inevitable. The industry, it turns out, sabotaged itself and its own pipeline of female talent.

    Turns out THIS is why tech is a hardscrabble industry with very little profit to be made.

  30. “…also noting a high “incidence of beards, sandals, and other symptoms of rugged individualism or nonconformity.” “……paging John Derbyshire, paging John Derbyshire.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Farenheit


    ……paging John Derbyshire, paging John Derbyshire.
     
    The Derbyshire demon cannot be summoned by mere mortals repeating his name. His presence requires much more. You might try offering gcochran as a human sacrifice. (Though I personally oppose human sacrifice.) But maybe a try Darwin panegyric to do it. Do be sure to include the minor deities in the Derbyshire cosmos. A suitable supplication might do it!
  31. As an aside, I usually don’t take time to look up these morons, so forgive me for the speculation. Is this Emily Chang really Chinese? The name just reminds me of a Seinfeld episode (highlight below).

    Does this stupid broad think that the readers will think she is wise because she has ancient Chinese family name? You’re not fooling me, Emily Changstein! If that is the best you can come up with, then you people have duped me for the last time. No more following the advice of Mr. Confucius, and no more playing the numbers inside those fortune cookies!

    Why should I follow the advice of some lady from Long Island?

    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    @Achmed E. Newman

    She is a eurasian. Mother's maiden name was Galeone, so Chinese Italian.

  32. When I studied computer science forty years ago there were at least twice as many women in the classes as there are now, and no one thought anything about it. Although most students chose computer science because they wanted to get a job, there were a few men who were devoted to it.There were no women who were devoted in that way, although some were quite capable, and there were no female systems programmers. My hardware classes, however, were almost entirely male. The notion that computer science was once or originally a female domain is a fantasy. This fantasy is usually promoted by a reference to Grace Hopper and Ada Lovelace. Hopper was to some extent responsible for COBOL, a programming language scorned by computer science enthusiasts when I was young. Lovelace assisted Charles Babbage, who conceived the first stored program computer. Alhough there were many more female computer science students when I was young than there are now, computer science enthusiasts were almost entirely male, and the domain was dominated by men. It is a fact that far more men are attracted to computer science and engineering than women. Most of the women I have known don’t know how anything works and don’t care. It is not true that geeks have excluded women from computer science.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @piefacedprince


    Hopper was to some extent responsible for COBOL, a programming language scorned by computer science enthusiasts when I was young.
     
    I agree. I distinctly remember COBOL being looked down in the late 1970s in an academic environment, when I learned a couple of coding languages as a college senior to earn a few bucks on the side.

    A couple of years later, in a corporate environment, as a young management science/operations research staff guy in the financial industry, I observed that about a third of the programmers in the IT department were women, doing COBOL coding. I also remember the head of IT saying that an often voiced opinion in his business was that women were well suited to it because COBOL coding to spec was similar to patchwork embroidery.

    But the people in the IT department coming up with creative new decision support systems for senior management (what would today be called data mining) and doing the coding on the fly for the then-new quant aspects of finance were all men.

  33. Yes, there’s the ‘Hidden Figures’ reference, just as I anticipated.

    No namedrop of Ada Lovelace though, at least in what Steve excerpts.

    Did you know God used to be a woman too?

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Roderick Spode

    God is definitely a woman: https://www.dailywire.com/news/26692/us-episcopal-diocese-votes-stop-using-masculine-paul-bois

    Replies: @Yak-15

  34. You may have written about this Steve, but if so, it’s worth saying again.

    It rings true to me that one would see a decline in women in computing. A long time ago, operating a computer looked a lot like operating a telephone switchboard (I’m not that old, but all the movies show this being a woman’s job). The machine capabilities were low, so computing had little innovation but a lot of mechanization to it.

    But computing is a virtuous cycle. faster machines make faster computations, and FASTER computations mean MORE computation which leads to greater discovery and eventually, faster machines. In less than a generation we see something like setting up a local area network go from a highly paid technical capability, to something nerdy amateurs do on weekends, to a consumable product built into handheld gaming devices.

    Women are very good at following instructions. I don’t mean that as an insult; as a man I have a hard time doing what anyone tells me to do repeatedly, even if I know it’s necessary or for my own good. Men are better at innovating. The shift in tech has been one a steady -and rapid- shift from mechanics (a series of repeated steps) to innovation (problem-solving). A good antonym to tech is government bureaucracy: rule-oriented, devoid of innovation, full of women.

    Even in a society used to change, it may seem shocking that your father supported a family of four as a carpenter but 20 years later people only buy IKEA furniture (this poor metaphor is no endorsement of inferior goods over superior goods). Or imagine learning to be a car mechanic but 15 years later you can’t get a job because everyone has self-fixing cars and all the good mechanics work on spacecraft, anyway.

    That would make a lot of people very upset. Especially if they kept being told it wasn’t because their skill-set no longer matched the market, but because of bias.

  35. Given that in the 1960’s neither Microsoft, Oracle, Apple , Google, etc. had yet to exist it would have only taken a few entrepreneurial female programmers to have changed the course of history and built the first female mega corporation in world history. That no women programmers did says either they did not have what Tommy Lasorda once called the ‘necessities’ to be a pioneer in a pioneering industry or the vision to see what was just ahead.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @unit472

    Al Campanis

    , @njguy73
    @unit472

    It was Dodger GM Al Campanis who said that Blacks may not have the necessities to be big-league managers. Six years later, Cito Gaston led the Blue Jays to back-to-back World Series titles.

  36. I really don’t care.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @allahu akbar


    I really don’t care.
     
    I really don't care that you don't care.
    , @ScarletNumber
    @allahu akbar

    Then why did you bother commenting?

  37. The most annoying thing about this issue is that the real cause is actually more interesting. The real cause looks to be related to the tech bubbles. All you need to do is graph the raw numbers for CS degrees given out.

    Here’s a blog post which did so a few years back: http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2014/10/women-in-computer-science.html

    Rather than sexism, an alternate explanation which fits better is risk-aversion and reaction to the boom/bust cycle that tech periodically goes through.

    • Replies: @Stirner
    @GSH

    I'm glad to the link to that article. It demonstrates how women were NOT particularly excluded from computer science in the 60's and 70's. It does show that women's interest in the field started declining precipitously in the 1980's.

    One iSteve sort of explanation: Revenge of the Nerds came out, entrenching the linkage between nerds and computers in the public consciousness. Women were not interested in working and mating with a bunch of "nerds" and started fleeing the profession.

    I put the question to a programmer friend of mine, and he had another explanation: the rise of object-oriented programming. According to him, that was a significant change to programming, and elevated the need for high-level conceptual thinking and systems design.

    , @Anonymous
    @GSH

    I think you're onto something.

    Men are disproportionately attracted to high-risk high-reward work.

    In 1958 computer programming was not that. Electronics and hardware were. Like Fairchild.

    In 2018 computer programming is.

    I've watched several tech startups mature. In their risky, no-holds-barred early life they tend to be more male. The ones that survive, as they become large and stable, attract more women.

    It's not only a gender thing, it's a personality thing. I know plenty of young, smart, single males who you'd think would be the perfect startup type, yet they were afraid to take the plunge. But that personality preference is itself correlated with gender.

  38. @Reg Cæsar

    "Unfortunately, there’s a wealth of evidence to suggest that if you set out to hire antisocial nerds, you’ll wind up hiring a lot more men than women."
     
    Who other than antisocial nerds would put in the 100-hour weeks that Microsoft and others demanded of them?

    Women have lives. Programmers don't.

    At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer...
     
    Huh?

    ...to any young person with a modest intellect and a willingness to live in the Bay Area,
     
    Oh! Important stipulation, where $3,000 a month will get you a walk-in closet with a sink and a commode.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @JW, @Twinkie, @oddsbodkins

    A “modest intellect” also in no ways guarantees a job in the bay area either. Only about 50% of the CS grads from my state university got jobs at a tech company.

  39. From 1964 an episode of “The Twilight Zone”. “From Agnes with Love”. Female A.I. teaches computer nerd all about game to get a girl. Girl runs off with Chad.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x42g62m

  40. Ugh, the Hidden Figures thing. How many times must this be debunked?

    Many mathematically equations cannot be solved analytically but must be solved using numerical techniques. For example: suppose a car is accelerating at some rate and you want to know the position. You can use calculus and immediately derive that d = 1/2 a t^2. Or, you can say that the position at time zero is zero, the velocity is zero, and the acceleration is whatever, then at time 0.01 seconds calculate the new velocity, acceleration, position, and then at 0.02 seconds, and so on, and build that up to whatever arbitrary time you wish to know about. Obviously the first way is very fast and exact, and the latter is very tedious and inexact. However many equations can only be solved using the latter techniques.

    Today we would just do these tedious calculations on a computer; it is well within the capability of many high school students to make a computer program or, heck, an excel spreadsheet to do this. However, prior to the advent of powerful computers to do numerical simulations, a ‘computer’ was a person, generally a woman, who would do these incredibly boring and repetitive arithmetic calculations by hand.

    That was the role of the women in Hidden Figures. They were human computers. That is not a compliment. They were replaced by pocket calculators, which were faster and more accurate.

    Early female programmers, similar story, their role was basically clerical work. Please don’t start with me about Ada Lovelace who for unclear reasons is more widely known than Charles Babbage, the guy who, you know, actually designed the first modern computer. And Grace Hopper, yeah, not a bad career, but you don’t see Dijkstra or Kernighan or Richtie getting colleges named after them at Yale.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @SimpleSong


    That was the role of the women in Hidden Figures. They were human computers. That is not a compliment. They were replaced by pocket calculators, which were faster and more accurate.
     
    Most of what you say is spot on but this part is not quite right. First of all, the women in Hidden Figures already had (mechanical desk) calculators, AKA adding machines. These could even do multiplication by repeated addition.

    2nd what they did could not be replaced by the calculators of their time and instead they were replaced by early computers.

    However, what they did COULD be replaced by a modern programmable calculator, say a TI-83 (which has capabilities similar to early mainframe computers. An iPhone has processing power similar to 1980s supercomputers). The TI can do what these "Hidden" geniuses did, faster and better and it's not even a very good device.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

  41. Cannon and Perry’s research was influential at a crucial juncture in the development of the industry.

    The evil Cannon and Perry are playing the same role here, that FDR’s housing agencies play in the theories of Tah-Nehisi Coates.

  42. Instead of publishing a book to help girls learn programming, Penguin publishes a book whining about the status quo, and instead of promoting the author of a book that would help girls to learn programming Bloomberg promotes a parasite who creates nothing. These people are trash.

  43. I have never met a woman with any understanding of reality, they all live in a fuzzy world of pinkness

  44. istevefan says:

    In tech’s earliest days, programmers looked a lot different from the geeky men we now imagine when we imagine tech workers. In fact, they looked like women. … In 1962, as depicted in the 2016 film Hidden Figures, three black women working as NASA mathematicians helped calculate the flight paths that put John Glenn into orbit.

    First, they make it seem like geeky men are johnny-come-latelys to the tech world. But weren’t those computers that required programming designed and built by men? And other than Grace Hopper, weren’t most of the early programming languages designed by men?

    Second, has ‘Hidden Figures’ now crossed over into established historical fact?

    • Replies: @donut
    @istevefan

    It's only a matter of time before the true facts of the Civil War come out as well . It was the Negroes that rose up and liberated themselves and the North from the oppressive Slave power .

    , @Abe
    @istevefan


    Second, has ‘Hidden Figures’ now crossed over into established historical fact?
     
    Sorry to quote myself, but fakes news really is the first draft of fake history.
    , @bomag
    @istevefan


    Second, has ‘Hidden Figures’ now crossed over into established historical fact?
     
    It has become Progressive religious canon.

    Also indicates that there is no winning the Social Grievance Olympics: if you start hiring more women, you will soon not be hiring enough Black women; if you hire more Black women, you soon won't be hiring enough transgendered women; etc.
  45. >>>At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer to any young person with a modest intellect and….

    No. A modest intellect guarantees you nothing in today’s world. In fact, you’re damn near useless, just ask David Brooks.

    Obviously, the dude who wrote this doesn’t get out much.

  46. >>>also noting a high “incidence of beards, sandals, and other symptoms of rugged individualism or nonconformity.”

    No, they were just sloppy, nerdy introverts who had little game, but they could happily sit at a console or punch cards for hours.

  47. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    This is only one data point, but I’ve worked with both male and female programmers (many more men). Some of the male programmers were almost from another planet when I tried to talk with them. The female programmers were mostly normal.

    And a friend of mine has a son with Aspberger’s Syndrome so has pretty low social skills. However he is very creative and now does CGI development in LA. My friend tells me that most of his son’s CGI friends (all guys) appear to be socially out in left field.

    I think it’s the law of attraction for guys with that temperament and computer work.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Anonymous

    And it'll get ever stronger in the future because increasingly, working-class and entry level jobs are all service oriented. Aka, why unemployment/underemployment for autistic/ASD males is ridiculously through the roof.

    I wonder if the explosion in diagnoses has something to do in part with the shifts of the modern economy for the most part strongly disfavoring people who don't naturally interpret social interactions right and struggle to make connections.

  48. The key juicy anecdote in her book – the sex party with multiple VC and tech founders there- appears to be essentially 100% a lie.

    This isn’t the Rolling Stone hoax but this is very bad, and she should have lost her contract for it:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/webdevmason/status/951841833058934785?lang=en

  49. Funny how over the last 50 years no start up ever tried to challenge this stereotype and make lots of money by doing so.

    And if they pay these junior Grace Hoppers just $0.73 on the dollar, they’ll make a fortune!

    Second, has ‘Hidden Figures’ now crossed over into established historical fact?

    Yes. Next question.

  50. @istevefan

    In tech’s earliest days, programmers looked a lot different from the geeky men we now imagine when we imagine tech workers. In fact, they looked like women. … In 1962, as depicted in the 2016 film Hidden Figures, three black women working as NASA mathematicians helped calculate the flight paths that put John Glenn into orbit.
     
    First, they make it seem like geeky men are johnny-come-latelys to the tech world. But weren't those computers that required programming designed and built by men? And other than Grace Hopper, weren't most of the early programming languages designed by men?

    Second, has 'Hidden Figures' now crossed over into established historical fact?

    Replies: @donut, @Abe, @bomag

    It’s only a matter of time before the true facts of the Civil War come out as well . It was the Negroes that rose up and liberated themselves and the North from the oppressive Slave power .

  51. Imagine basing policy on ‘Hidden Figures’?

    We are no longer serious people if we do that.

    The inscrutable ones of the East will laugh into their bowls of noodles.

  52. @Reg Cæsar

    "Unfortunately, there’s a wealth of evidence to suggest that if you set out to hire antisocial nerds, you’ll wind up hiring a lot more men than women."
     
    Who other than antisocial nerds would put in the 100-hour weeks that Microsoft and others demanded of them?

    Women have lives. Programmers don't.

    At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer...
     
    Huh?

    ...to any young person with a modest intellect and a willingness to live in the Bay Area,
     
    Oh! Important stipulation, where $3,000 a month will get you a walk-in closet with a sink and a commode.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @JW, @Twinkie, @oddsbodkins

    Women have lives.

    Put another way, women have babies.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Twinkie


    Women have lives.

    Put another way, women have babies.
     
    Babies are life.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @Jack D
    @Twinkie

    Well, they COULD have babies, but most of the women who are capable of doing programming aren't having babies. The "lives" that they prefer to programming involve anything BUT child rearing. They don't have that excuse. They are just not that into problem solving the way nerdy guys are.

    This is the great irony of modern feminism - there is one job (having babies) that women are infinitely better at than men but that's the job that they DON'T want to do.

    Replies: @Thomm

  53. @istevefan

    In tech’s earliest days, programmers looked a lot different from the geeky men we now imagine when we imagine tech workers. In fact, they looked like women. … In 1962, as depicted in the 2016 film Hidden Figures, three black women working as NASA mathematicians helped calculate the flight paths that put John Glenn into orbit.
     
    First, they make it seem like geeky men are johnny-come-latelys to the tech world. But weren't those computers that required programming designed and built by men? And other than Grace Hopper, weren't most of the early programming languages designed by men?

    Second, has 'Hidden Figures' now crossed over into established historical fact?

    Replies: @donut, @Abe, @bomag

    Second, has ‘Hidden Figures’ now crossed over into established historical fact?

    Sorry to quote myself, but fakes news really is the first draft of fake history.

  54. “Funny how over the last 50 years no start up ever tried to challenge this stereotype and make lots of money by doing so.”

    Steve Shirley in the UK, I’ve mentioned her before. Ironically a piece of Labour Government legislation stopped her company from only hiring women, though when I worked alongside her people they were still mostly female (and good).

    But that was back in the day when companies literally had separate career paths for men and women, there was little part time IT work (the gap that Shirley exploited, hiring programmers who’d had to stop work when they had kids). Today your general point is valid – there’s nothing to stop a company gaining an advantage by hiring all those passed-over women – after all, they’re hiring all those Indian IT guys who would have been passed over before capitalists discovered open borders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Shirley

  55. @Abe
    Isn’t the author/her book a sort of meta-testimony for the opposition? Meaning, instead of making any meaningful contribution to machine learning, quantum computing, cryptography, etc., Miss Amy Chua-lite (Amy Chua herself being the daughter of a legendary electrical engineering professor) takes the easier path of whining and moaning her way to her own paltry bit of fame and fortune- i.e. becomes a SJW journalist?

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Neoconned

    Miss Amy Chua-lite

    That’s an insult to Amy Chua, who is clearly smarter, more successful, and has produced actual works of substance (before the Tiger Mom infamy).

    • Replies: @academic gossip
    @Twinkie

    Amy has high but nowhere-near-YLS-professor level ability. She brute-forced her way through academia with big help from her personality, good looks, race/gender, marriage and connections. She spells out some of that history in her Tiger book.

    This greatly improves her published work, because she looks for relevant, big-picture topics and unmined commonsense angles (HBD Lite) instead of the pointless mental gymnastics of her higher-IQ colleagues.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @Abe
    @Twinkie


    That’s an insult to Amy Chua, who is clearly smarter, more successful, and has produced actual works of substance (before the Tiger Mom infamy).
     
    Well, I did call her Amy Chua-LITE. And anyway Amy Chua was in STEM, couldn't hack it, and was told by her genius-level father (pretty sure if his field were more related to a Nobel category he'd have one of those by now) to try ECON instead. Did Amy Chua produce other substantive works besides the WORLD ON FIRE/middleman minority one? So maybe I'm not giving her enough credit, but her latest work seems to be going in a decidedly sub-Malcolm Gladwell/Michael Lewis direction. And being basically a journalist it kind of has to to keep bringing in the paychecks each month.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @Chuck
    @Twinkie


    That’s an insult to Amy Chua
     
    M'lady.
  56. @istevefan

    In tech’s earliest days, programmers looked a lot different from the geeky men we now imagine when we imagine tech workers. In fact, they looked like women. … In 1962, as depicted in the 2016 film Hidden Figures, three black women working as NASA mathematicians helped calculate the flight paths that put John Glenn into orbit.
     
    First, they make it seem like geeky men are johnny-come-latelys to the tech world. But weren't those computers that required programming designed and built by men? And other than Grace Hopper, weren't most of the early programming languages designed by men?

    Second, has 'Hidden Figures' now crossed over into established historical fact?

    Replies: @donut, @Abe, @bomag

    Second, has ‘Hidden Figures’ now crossed over into established historical fact?

    It has become Progressive religious canon.

    Also indicates that there is no winning the Social Grievance Olympics: if you start hiring more women, you will soon not be hiring enough Black women; if you hire more Black women, you soon won’t be hiring enough transgendered women; etc.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  57. The $150K in adjusted $ seems to be lost on the author. That is what the salaries would be if we weren’t importing foreign coders, and we would have a F/M ratio similar to the 1980s, Instead, we have to make sure Bill Gates and Zuckerberg get their next Billion ASAP.

  58. This is a very deceptive version of history.

    Before digital computers, “computers” were the ladies like the Hidden Figures gals who sat all day at calculators and added up columns of numbers. Most of these were employed in civil service positions at government agencies. Even then, Federal employment had an affirmative action component so they had blacks and women when private industry didn’t (because white guys are more productive). These people were not regarded as geniuses but as menial clerical workers. An average white could do it but for blacks they got talented tenth Negroes (often mulattoes) who had teaching degrees from black colleges.

    When digital computers came in, they would have had to lay off all these women and the government hates laying off people so they hit on the idea of retraining them to program the computers instead. In those days computer programming was crude and not that hard to learn – the computer was now adding up the columns of numbers instead of the ladies.

    The introduction of the PC (and before that “mini-computers” in schools – many a high school had a mini that they used to keep track of grades, etc. and the programming class had access to it too) allowed kids to start programming much earlier and get really good at it (sometimes good enough to hack into the grading system). Programming is one of those things that boys are naturally attracted to and most girls have no interest in. Feminist have the crazy notion that evil sexists channel girls away from certain occupations but it is really the opposite – the only way you can get girls interested in this stuff (or non-gay boys interested in certain feminine occupations) is at virtual gunpoint.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Jack D

    "Programming is one of those things that boys are naturally attracted to and most girls have no interest in. "

    In a longish IT career I've seen very few female coding nerds, the sort who are totally uninterested in the business they're employed in but only in the code and the interface. Females have tended to gravitate towards the analysis side (how it all fits together), and the business analysis side (how it meets the business need - lots of meetings here, lots of documents to read and produce).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    , @Abe
    @Jack D


    Programming is one of those things that boys are naturally attracted to and most girls have no interest in.
     
    Nice history lesson, Jack, but hold on there for a moment. Just because women and girls have traditionally not been interested in these fields in the past does not mean, with the proper encouragement and role models, they could not become interested sometime in the future.

    I just watched this hip and really edgy sitcom where the daughter character is super-bright, and has super-heart, and doesn't conform to many gender stereotypes. She plays blues music, questions why her doll character doesn't do anything more than dress-up, and is basically the voice of conscience that even the grown-ups must eventually listen to. So let's hold off on our judgement and see if this, and other similarly positive girl role models, can't make a change for the better in the coming years. I think this new sitcom is called THE SIMPSONS or something...

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  59. This twat was a business journalist and for years presented an apolitical face to her audience.

    Now, she is trying to cash into the whiny feminist stream. Those VC sex parties are a complete fabrication.

    The exclusion of women from technology wasn’t inevitable.

    Yes, it was.

    The industry, it turns out, sabotaged itself and its own pipeline of female talent.

    Sabotage? This supposed ‘business journalist’ does not even know about the most visible metrics of success.

    Rather, the tech industry really IS sabotaging itself by giving too much importance to women (see : James Damore, Theranos, Marissa Mayer, Ellen Pao, etc.).

  60. By the way, my wife has been watching “Halt and Catch Fire” while on the treadmill. It’s a fictionalized account of computing through the ‘80s and 90’s through the prism of four protagonists, two of them women. At one point, the two women run a company together. My wife rolls her eyes and says, “Right, genius women programmers were at the vanguard of the Internet.” Then a little later, after the intra-female drama destroys the company, she says, smiling, “Now it’s a documentary.”

    My wife has a STEM doctorate, was an executive, and ran a small company with me. She’s the first one to admit that women often engage in needless drama and generally make poor leaders with few exceptions. At our company, she let me be the CEO and the disciplinarian “dad” while she was the sympathetic “mom” even though the company was in her field, not mine.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    @Twinkie

    What's your wife's STEM doctorate in?

    Replies: @Twinkie

  61. Is it at all coincidental that woman’s decline in computer programming coincided with changes in immigration, employers had to hire the available work force even if they had biases and prejudices, see movie Hidden Figures. With open immigration, they can indulge their biases and instead of training local American workers, including woman and blacks, hire men from overseas that be more compliant. To me that is the real message of all of this, and even the movie Hidden Figures, where blacks and black woman were more represented in tech than they are nowadays. Market forces always prevail

  62. Bloomberg are a big player in fintec. Let them eat their own dogfood, and show the industry the way forward by hiring lots of women programmers.

  63. Karl Zielinski: Mary, a person with an engineer’s mind should be an engineer. You can’t be a computer the rest of your life.
    Mary Jackson: Mr. Zielinski, I’m a negro woman. I’m not gonna entertain the impossible.
    Karl Zielinski: And I’m a Polish Jew whose parents died in a Nazi prison camp. Now I’m standing beneath a spaceship that’s going to carry an astronaut to the stars. I think we can say we are living the impossible. Let me ask you, if you were a white male, would you wish to be an engineer?
    Mary Jackson: I wouldn’t have to. I’d already be one.

    Karl Zielinski in Hidden Figures is based on Kazimierz R. Czarnecki who was not Jewish. It seems like no story can be told w/o reference to Jews and Holocaust.

    • Replies: @Ben Kurtz
    @utu

    "Karl Zielinski: And I’m a Polish Jew whose parents died in a Nazi prison camp. Now I’m standing beneath a spaceship that’s THE BRAINCHILD OF AN ACTUAL FRIGGIN' NAZI. I think we can say we HAVE NO SENSE OF THE COSMIC IRONIES INVOLVED HERE."

    There... fixed it for ya'!

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @J.Ross
    @utu

    This is part of the history-erasing jealous ownership of suffering, now represented by Israel attempting to blame Poland for German actions. It's an inevitable result of psychopathically misunderstanding suffering only as a negotiatory fulcrum, like the guy in Texas Chainsaw Massacre who cuts himself and then attempts to extort money. Here the perverse chauvinism of the Jewish producers and the black audiences overlaps, because acknowledging Polish suffering would mean complicating their straw man of the evil white oppressor, where the whole point of this movie is to unify probable Democrats around hatred of a simple enemy. So he has to become Jewish in order to be sympathetic and to be able to talk about suffering, because in this fantasy world, whites do not suffer. Of course, in real life, blacks aren't really very fond of Jews, but nobody in Hollywood acknowledges that, any more than they acknowledge the hilariously elaborate ideas mestizos have about Jewish conspiracy. In Hollywood, Robert Loggia deliberately loses the card game he plays with his mestizo construction crew and then they all sing kumbaya.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Charles Erwin Wilson

  64. Are they talking about key punch operators?? When did key punch operators rule??

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @anon

    Yes, women were key punch operators but also in the early days there were female programmers too. Programming was a 9 to 5 job done for government agencies and a few big corporations involving writing simple programs to add up payrolls and keep track of bank balances and that kind of stuff and it was well suited for women. Often it was the same ladies who had been "computers" before so you could give the programmer a set of test data and she could add it up manually and then write a program to add up the same data set and if the answers matched you were good to go.

    , @David Davenport
    @anon

    That was the role of the women in Hidden Figures. They were human computers. That is not a compliment. They were replaced by pocket calculators, which were faster and more accurate.

    No, they weren't human computers. They operated "calculators" -- enhanced adding machines that could multiply and divide as well as add and subtract. These calculating machines didn't have much electronics. They were electro-mechanical machines, similar to electric typewriters.

    I bet they produced no more than four significant figures, and had a way to indicate the order of magnitude. I have never looked at one up close.

    A human operator of such a machine could follow a script to work on nonlinear equations or linear algebra problems without the operator fully understanding the math.

    Such calculators were used during WWII and before.

    Are they talking about key punch operators?? When did key punch operators rule??

    Key pinch operators operated specialized typewriters to punch holes in rectangular cardboard cards. Google to find a picture. Punch cards existed before electronic computers were in use. International Business Machines started out in the 1920's with electro-mechanical machines that could do simple tasks such as reading workers' punched time cards and calculating wages and deductions.

    Cardboard "time cards" -- Young peepul can Google to find out about those, too. If you had anything on the ball and didn't need to be spoon fed, you'd Google before asking here.

    In roughly, the 1960's, punch cards were used to feed data and programming instructions to mainframe computers.

  65. @Jack D
    This is a very deceptive version of history.

    Before digital computers, "computers" were the ladies like the Hidden Figures gals who sat all day at calculators and added up columns of numbers. Most of these were employed in civil service positions at government agencies. Even then, Federal employment had an affirmative action component so they had blacks and women when private industry didn't (because white guys are more productive). These people were not regarded as geniuses but as menial clerical workers. An average white could do it but for blacks they got talented tenth Negroes (often mulattoes) who had teaching degrees from black colleges.

    When digital computers came in, they would have had to lay off all these women and the government hates laying off people so they hit on the idea of retraining them to program the computers instead. In those days computer programming was crude and not that hard to learn - the computer was now adding up the columns of numbers instead of the ladies.

    The introduction of the PC (and before that "mini-computers" in schools - many a high school had a mini that they used to keep track of grades, etc. and the programming class had access to it too) allowed kids to start programming much earlier and get really good at it (sometimes good enough to hack into the grading system). Programming is one of those things that boys are naturally attracted to and most girls have no interest in. Feminist have the crazy notion that evil sexists channel girls away from certain occupations but it is really the opposite - the only way you can get girls interested in this stuff (or non-gay boys interested in certain feminine occupations) is at virtual gunpoint.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Abe

    “Programming is one of those things that boys are naturally attracted to and most girls have no interest in. “

    In a longish IT career I’ve seen very few female coding nerds, the sort who are totally uninterested in the business they’re employed in but only in the code and the interface. Females have tended to gravitate towards the analysis side (how it all fits together), and the business analysis side (how it meets the business need – lots of meetings here, lots of documents to read and produce).

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @YetAnotherAnon

    In a longish IT career I’ve seen very few female coding nerds, the sort who are totally uninterested in the business they’re employed in but only in the code and the interface.
     

    I have heard of them, but I have never known one despite working in technology for a good part of my life. I have seen women who are passably good at webcode and quite excellent at user interface and design, but I've never seen a woman who was seriously interested in algorithms, high level abstractions or genuinely being a "hacker." Most of what I've seen from women who claim that is essentially cargo culting - which can be super annoying.

    Replies: @Jack D, @academic gossip, @Brutusale

  66. OT – Zuck really does seem to have Presidential ambitions – he hired a marketing analyst to track what Joe Public perception of The Zuck.

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/6/16976328/facebook-mark-zuckerberg-pollster-tavis-mcginn-honest-data

    “Tavis McGinn applied for a job at Facebook last year hoping to work in market research. He had previously spent three years at Google, where he helped large advertisers refine their marketing campaigns across the company’s family of products. But part way through the interview process at Facebook, the recruiter told McGinn the company had something else in mind for him. How would he like to track the public perception of Mark Zuckerberg?”

  67. @Twinkie
    @Reg Cæsar


    Women have lives.
     
    Put another way, women have babies.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Jack D

    Women have lives.

    Put another way, women have babies.

    Babies are life.

    • Agree: Vinteuil
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @syonredux


    Babies are life.
     
    Yes, I know. The original remark by Reg Caesar was "women have lives" and my reply started with "Put another way..." I was not contradicting or disagreeing with him, I was re-framing his remark.
  68. It would seem advantageous to hire women because when they hit 30 and got pricey, and old, they would also be leaving to have that designer kid with the designer husband and you can then hire the next batch of 21 year olds without firing anyone.

  69. Good question! Where did all those sassy black ladies who took us to the moon and basically invented computing from scratch go? White privilege, I tell ya! Whitey took all their accomplishments, sacked them and sent them back to the guetto, where they barely made a living cleaning the homes of rich white Palo Altans. It’s a horrible story that needs to be told, preferably by George Lucas.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @BB753

    LOL

    It's not fair!

  70. @George
    Big computers, big hair: the women of Bell Labs in the 1960s – in pictures
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/gallery/2016/feb/13/future-women-the-bell-lab-computer-operators-of-the-1960s-in-pictures-women-in-computing

    What happened to the champion of Women tech entrepreneurs and TED talker Elizabeth Holmes?

    Well actually she might have been on to something more than a brain fart. Is it me or is this headline really sexist?

    Theranos Somehow Manages to Snag $100 Million Lifeline
    https://gizmodo.com/theranos-somehow-manages-to-snag-100-million-lifeline-1821563374

    Should read Girl 'scientist' Somehow Manages to Snag $100 Million Lifeline (article should detail what she was wearing at investor presentations)

    Whatever her merits Theranos was never a public company, I still am not clear why her persecution was the responsibility of the US government. As near as I can tell someone who expected to inherit the estate of the still living Fmr Sec of State George Schultz did not want granddad investing in girl power projects so he used personal connections to bring the law down on the little lady.

    Replies: @Jingo Starr, @Peterike

    Cut out

    Look at former board of directors.

  71. Reading this after seing what Ezra Klein wrote in the next post, I realize that most of what lefties write can be grouped under a psychopathic lack of empathy.

  72. @Sue D. Nim
    Funny how over the last 50 years no start up ever tried to challenge this stereotype and make lots of money by doing so.

    In the UK Steve Shirley (a woman) set up a company employing women programmers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Shirley



    OT: Beyoncé's dad is a race realist.

    Beyonce might not be as successful if she had darker skin, father says

    www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-5357945/Beyonce-not-successful-darker-skin-father-says.html

    Replies: @James N. Kennett

    I was about to comment on Stephanie Shirley, but you beat me to it!

    To be fair, she began her business when IT was still female-dominated; but she continued hiring women. In fact, she hired only women until this practice was outlawed in the mid-seventies. She also pioneered homeworking. She became very wealthy in the process.

  73. @Cloudbuster
    This whole Hidden Figures mythology is getting annoying. What those women were doing bears virtually no resemblance to what people today consider programming or software development.

    Replies: @Stan Adams, @Antlitz Grollheim

    Hollywood is the Ministry of Truth.

  74. @MG
    The staff in Feynman’s computing group at Los Alamos were almost all women. But that was before we had H-1B cheap labor from India.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Brutusale

    Are you sure? I remember reading in one of Feynman’s books that the group of “computers” he was in charge of consisted of male draftees who had done well in high school math. Because of secrecy, at first they didn’t tell them what they were working on and just told them, military style, “Add up these columns of figures, that’s an order.” And they were going very slowly, playing pranks on each other, not getting stuff done, acting like bored 18 year olds. So Feynman got permission to tell them a little about what they were doing and he gave them a few lessons on the problems they were trying to solve so they understood what those rows of figures meant and what they were trying to optimize. Once he did that, their productivity exploded – they figured out all kinds of clever shortcuts, ways to work in parallel, color coding the card decks (they had punch card tabulators which were a sort of mechanical computer that used the same punch cards that survived into the computer age), etc. They competed with each other to see who was the fastest, etc. Because they were really bright and competitive white guys and that’s the kind of stuff that young white guys do when you turn them loose at a problem.

    I’m sure that if the computers were all female they would have sat patiently and added up those figures all day long and would not have changed a thing.

    • Replies: @Richard of Melbourne
    @Jack D

    "Because they were really bright and competitive white guys and that’s the kind of stuff that young white guys do when you turn them loose at a problem."

    Something else those guys do when you turn them loose at a problem: Western Civilisation.

    , @MG
    @Jack D

    Yes, Feynman’s staff was composed of women. See -

    https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/human-computers-los-alamos

    Replies: @Jack D

  75. @Cloudbuster
    This whole Hidden Figures mythology is getting annoying. What those women were doing bears virtually no resemblance to what people today consider programming or software development.

    Replies: @Stan Adams, @Antlitz Grollheim

    Programming is not powered by sass and drama?

  76. @Twinkie
    @Reg Cæsar


    Women have lives.
     
    Put another way, women have babies.

    Replies: @syonredux, @Jack D

    Well, they COULD have babies, but most of the women who are capable of doing programming aren’t having babies. The “lives” that they prefer to programming involve anything BUT child rearing. They don’t have that excuse. They are just not that into problem solving the way nerdy guys are.

    This is the great irony of modern feminism – there is one job (having babies) that women are infinitely better at than men but that’s the job that they DON’T want to do.

    • Agree: Corn
    • Replies: @Thomm
    @Jack D


    This is the great irony of modern feminism – there is one job (having babies) that women are infinitely better at than men but that’s the job that they DON’T want to do.
     
    Feminism is about those who have a deep resentment of God for having been made a woman.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  77. @anon
    Are they talking about key punch operators?? When did key punch operators rule??

    Replies: @Jack D, @David Davenport

    Yes, women were key punch operators but also in the early days there were female programmers too. Programming was a 9 to 5 job done for government agencies and a few big corporations involving writing simple programs to add up payrolls and keep track of bank balances and that kind of stuff and it was well suited for women. Often it was the same ladies who had been “computers” before so you could give the programmer a set of test data and she could add it up manually and then write a program to add up the same data set and if the answers matched you were good to go.

  78. @Jack D
    @Twinkie

    Well, they COULD have babies, but most of the women who are capable of doing programming aren't having babies. The "lives" that they prefer to programming involve anything BUT child rearing. They don't have that excuse. They are just not that into problem solving the way nerdy guys are.

    This is the great irony of modern feminism - there is one job (having babies) that women are infinitely better at than men but that's the job that they DON'T want to do.

    Replies: @Thomm

    This is the great irony of modern feminism – there is one job (having babies) that women are infinitely better at than men but that’s the job that they DON’T want to do.

    Feminism is about those who have a deep resentment of God for having been made a woman.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Thomm


    Feminism is about those who have a deep resentment of God for having been made a woman.
     
    An unattractive woman, you mean.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @gunner29

  79. @Jack D
    This is a very deceptive version of history.

    Before digital computers, "computers" were the ladies like the Hidden Figures gals who sat all day at calculators and added up columns of numbers. Most of these were employed in civil service positions at government agencies. Even then, Federal employment had an affirmative action component so they had blacks and women when private industry didn't (because white guys are more productive). These people were not regarded as geniuses but as menial clerical workers. An average white could do it but for blacks they got talented tenth Negroes (often mulattoes) who had teaching degrees from black colleges.

    When digital computers came in, they would have had to lay off all these women and the government hates laying off people so they hit on the idea of retraining them to program the computers instead. In those days computer programming was crude and not that hard to learn - the computer was now adding up the columns of numbers instead of the ladies.

    The introduction of the PC (and before that "mini-computers" in schools - many a high school had a mini that they used to keep track of grades, etc. and the programming class had access to it too) allowed kids to start programming much earlier and get really good at it (sometimes good enough to hack into the grading system). Programming is one of those things that boys are naturally attracted to and most girls have no interest in. Feminist have the crazy notion that evil sexists channel girls away from certain occupations but it is really the opposite - the only way you can get girls interested in this stuff (or non-gay boys interested in certain feminine occupations) is at virtual gunpoint.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon, @Abe

    Programming is one of those things that boys are naturally attracted to and most girls have no interest in.

    Nice history lesson, Jack, but hold on there for a moment. Just because women and girls have traditionally not been interested in these fields in the past does not mean, with the proper encouragement and role models, they could not become interested sometime in the future.

    I just watched this hip and really edgy sitcom where the daughter character is super-bright, and has super-heart, and doesn’t conform to many gender stereotypes. She plays blues music, questions why her doll character doesn’t do anything more than dress-up, and is basically the voice of conscience that even the grown-ups must eventually listen to. So let’s hold off on our judgement and see if this, and other similarly positive girl role models, can’t make a change for the better in the coming years. I think this new sitcom is called THE SIMPSONS or something…

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Abe


    doesn’t conform to many gender stereotypes
     
    She wears pearls
  80. @Rosamond Vincy
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5354031/Women-reveal-hate-MeToo-movement.html

    Replies: @Corn

    I saw this coming a few weeks ago. It’s sad too. Alot of predatory guys who should get nailed will skate because the public is tired of endless “my boss is a jerk” or “I had a bad date” type whines.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    @Corn

    Girls in my Jr. High knew how to fend off the local equivalents of Asari or Franco. They also knew the difference between guys like them and the psycho who was hiding on the path between the library and the parochial school, waiting for unaccompanied girls to attack. Your mom, your older sister, and/or friends told you how to cope with the first type before you went out on your first date or got your first job.

    As for the second, now the Femi-nutcases would probably be saying that we should Take Back the Path, and avoiding it would be letting the patriarchy win, or some such thing. My dad simply told me never to use the path. He also taught me some martial arts moves he'd learned in the Navy, just in case. Thanks, Dad!

    Replies: @Corn

  81. @Twinkie
    @Abe


    Miss Amy Chua-lite
     
    That’s an insult to Amy Chua, who is clearly smarter, more successful, and has produced actual works of substance (before the Tiger Mom infamy).

    Replies: @academic gossip, @Abe, @Chuck

    Amy has high but nowhere-near-YLS-professor level ability. She brute-forced her way through academia with big help from her personality, good looks, race/gender, marriage and connections. She spells out some of that history in her Tiger book.

    This greatly improves her published work, because she looks for relevant, big-picture topics and unmined commonsense angles (HBD Lite) instead of the pointless mental gymnastics of her higher-IQ colleagues.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @academic gossip


    Amy has high but nowhere-near-YLS-professor level ability.
     
    Have you met her?

    She brute-forced her way through academia with big help from her personality, good looks, race/gender, marriage and connections. She spells out some of that history in her Tiger book.
     
    Has it occurred to you that she might have been self-deprecating in her book, which ends with her (admitted) defeat by her willful second daughter?

    instead of the pointless mental gymnastics of her higher-IQ colleagues.
     
    She still contributed vastly more to social science, such as it is, than this other Emily Chang character whose work you accurately described as "pointless mental gymnastics." Though I would re-phrase it as "pointless mental break-dancing." Gymnastics is too kind a comparison even inside one's brain.

    The only things Chua and Chang have in common are that they are both female and East Asian. Amy Chua-lite would be more Pamela Druckerman.
  82. @Twinkie
    @Abe


    Miss Amy Chua-lite
     
    That’s an insult to Amy Chua, who is clearly smarter, more successful, and has produced actual works of substance (before the Tiger Mom infamy).

    Replies: @academic gossip, @Abe, @Chuck

    That’s an insult to Amy Chua, who is clearly smarter, more successful, and has produced actual works of substance (before the Tiger Mom infamy).

    Well, I did call her Amy Chua-LITE. And anyway Amy Chua was in STEM, couldn’t hack it, and was told by her genius-level father (pretty sure if his field were more related to a Nobel category he’d have one of those by now) to try ECON instead. Did Amy Chua produce other substantive works besides the WORLD ON FIRE/middleman minority one? So maybe I’m not giving her enough credit, but her latest work seems to be going in a decidedly sub-Malcolm Gladwell/Michael Lewis direction. And being basically a journalist it kind of has to to keep bringing in the paychecks each month.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Abe


    Well, I did call her Amy Chua-LITE.
     
    But why even compare this imbecile to Amy Chua? What do they have in common except that they are both female and East Asian?

    her latest work seems to be going in a decidedly sub-Malcolm Gladwell/Michael Lewis direction. And being basically a journalist it kind of has to to keep bringing in the paychecks each month.
     
    As people get older, their academic rigor tends to decline (mental acuity drops off starting in your mid-thirties and then there is a sharp cliff around 60-65), and even star intellectuals live off the glory of the earlier years and tend to dole out wisdom rather than intelligence (the former is arguably more valuable in the Aristotelian sense of excellence). And I don't mind her collecting paychecks to put her offspring through expensive schools, provided she's not causing harm - and I don't think she is. If anything, she in her own small ways has widened the Overton window. That's a net positive in my view.
  83. “There’s little evidence to suggest that antisocial people are more adept at math or computers.”

    There’s a meta-joke in here somewhere, or at least a fallacy of improper transposition.

    Because isn’t it at least equally salient to ask whether people who are more adept at math or computers tend to be more anti-social?

    I’d guess that filtering just by “anti-social” is not a good way to find likely programmers in a candidate pool, even if filtering by “programmer” might be a very efficient way of coming up with a cohort within a larger population that tends to be anti-social. Meaning: Is it (a) Anti-Social -> Good at Computers, or (b) Good at Computers -> Anti-Social? If I were a betting man, I’d put $1 on (b), and if I were a logical man I’d point out that (b)’s truth could not possibly be taken as demonstrating (a)’s truth.

    It is innumerate and illogical lunacy to think that Cannon and Perry would suggest a hiring department simply call in all the anti-social people they could find and start interviewing. But that’s what Chang seems to think was their advice!

    Their actual advice was a lot saner: if you filter both for strong mathematical ability and for anti-social tendencies, you probably would make your candidate search a whole lot easier than just filtering for math ability. It’s not anti-social tendencies per se which are valuable, it’s when they happen to intersect with good math skills. An extroverted math star might be more interested in aeronautical engineering or quantitative securities trading and not be content to whittle away in a cube farm, so why bother recruiting him? Everyone understood that strength in math and formal logic was an important recruiting criterion; it was a valuable organizational psychology insight to realize you had to add “anti-social” to the mix to efficiently shortcut the programmer hiring process.

    Leave it to a woman to commit a basic and profound fallacy when trying to understand why men came to dominate a field that is characterized by ruthless, unyielding, (literally) mechanistic logic.

  84. @utu

    Karl Zielinski: Mary, a person with an engineer's mind should be an engineer. You can't be a computer the rest of your life.
    Mary Jackson: Mr. Zielinski, I'm a negro woman. I'm not gonna entertain the impossible.
    Karl Zielinski: And I'm a Polish Jew whose parents died in a Nazi prison camp. Now I'm standing beneath a spaceship that's going to carry an astronaut to the stars. I think we can say we are living the impossible. Let me ask you, if you were a white male, would you wish to be an engineer?
    Mary Jackson: I wouldn't have to. I'd already be one.
     
    Karl Zielinski in Hidden Figures is based on Kazimierz R. Czarnecki who was not Jewish. It seems like no story can be told w/o reference to Jews and Holocaust.

    Replies: @Ben Kurtz, @J.Ross

    “Karl Zielinski: And I’m a Polish Jew whose parents died in a Nazi prison camp. Now I’m standing beneath a spaceship that’s THE BRAINCHILD OF AN ACTUAL FRIGGIN’ NAZI. I think we can say we HAVE NO SENSE OF THE COSMIC IRONIES INVOLVED HERE.”

    There… fixed it for ya’!

    • LOL: utu
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Ben Kurtz

    While a number of prominent Soviet aircraft designers were Jewish (the G in MiG is Gurevich) and of course Jews figure prominently in the design of atomic weapons, Jews don't seem to figure prominently as "rocket scientists", who are considered to be the very epitome of modern scientific geniuses. Nor do they, in the US, really feature prominently in aircraft design either. This may be in part because this work was conducted by big WASPy corporations who were not amenable to hiring Jewish engineers back in the day but there must be more to it than that. Jews could have started their own firms like Dassault in France. I suppose the prospect of working for the Nazi von Braun was not too attractive - most of the Jews that von Braun worked with were wearing striped uniforms. But I don't know what else. Maybe Jewish mothers wouldn't let their kids go up in airplanes or play with explosives.

    It was interesting that they retconned a Jew into Hidden Figures for no good reason. I think in part it might have been because "Polish (Catholic) scientist/engineer" is not a recognizable stereotype to American movie audiences, except as the punchline of a joke. There were/are in fact quite a few brilliant (non-Jewish) Polish mathematicians/scientists, etc.but they don't form a category in American popular culture the way that German scientists or Jewish scientists do. The French are also very good engineers who are not understood as such by Americans (in part this is their own fault as the French prefer to do their own thing and not collaborate with others. Oh, maybe collaborate is not a good choice of word.)

    This page lists the Jewish contributions to aeronautics:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-aeronautics-aviation-and-astronautics

    It's not exactly an awe inspiring list if you compare it to the list of Jewish physicists, mathematicians, etc. They don't list the glider pioneer Lilienthal who was of Jewish ancestry but I think grew up Christian.

    Replies: @inertial, @Ben Kurtz

  85. @Matthew Kelly
    I find it funny that they constantly refer to Silicon Valley as "brotopia" where it would probably be better termed "soyboytopia".

    They should have no problem getting these--ahem--"men"--to roll over and do their bidding.

    Replies: @Neoconned

    This. Like I was telling my Mexican co-worker last yr about white people in California. They’re not mean hard drinking rednecks like me. They’re pajama boys & that’s being nice.

    Anyway, YouTube is on a ban move right now. They’ve been deleting MGTOW videos left and right. Angry MGTOW had his channel shuttered and all he advocated was celibacy and Japan style nerd otaku antisocial lifestyle living.

    This is all about money. The brogrammers are largely gay or worse rollover white knight zeta males.

    They’re too busy working or gaming to take these bimbos out on dates and shower them w attention and free shit.

    The bad boys of California aren’t that bad besides a few four ft tall Salvadoran gangbangers. Most of the blacks left in California are either gay or like in LA….of the toothless crazy panhandler derelict variety….

    The Asian gangsters are too busy w their own women. And there just aren’t enough white thugs and working class whites left to satisfy the tingles.

    Most of the techies are asexual or gay

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @Neoconned

    Finally some demographic reality and truth telling! Male programmers are disproportionately GAY, and, yes, that includes all the Caucasians and Asians (both east & south). This characterization that Silicon Valley is a straight white frat boy utopia is laughable and completely unreal. This bitch can only sell books and articles to a willing believer crowd who reside mostly on the East Coast.

    CHANG EMILY = ER BI

  86. Beyond the Silicon Valley of the Dolls, coming soon to a theatre near you.

  87. @Corn
    @Rosamond Vincy

    I saw this coming a few weeks ago. It’s sad too. Alot of predatory guys who should get nailed will skate because the public is tired of endless “my boss is a jerk” or “I had a bad date” type whines.

    Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

    Girls in my Jr. High knew how to fend off the local equivalents of Asari or Franco. They also knew the difference between guys like them and the psycho who was hiding on the path between the library and the parochial school, waiting for unaccompanied girls to attack. Your mom, your older sister, and/or friends told you how to cope with the first type before you went out on your first date or got your first job.

    As for the second, now the Femi-nutcases would probably be saying that we should Take Back the Path, and avoiding it would be letting the patriarchy win, or some such thing. My dad simply told me never to use the path. He also taught me some martial arts moves he’d learned in the Navy, just in case. Thanks, Dad!

    • Replies: @Corn
    @Rosamond Vincy

    “avoiding it would be letting the patriarchy win, or some such thing.”

    Right. The old “Don’t tell us to protect ourselves, teach men not to rape!”

    Funny how they never boycott locksmiths.

    “Don’t tell us to lock our doors, teach burglars not to burgle!”

  88. @Roderick Spode
    Yes, there's the 'Hidden Figures' reference, just as I anticipated.

    No namedrop of Ada Lovelace though, at least in what Steve excerpts.

    Did you know God used to be a woman too?

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    • Replies: @Yak-15
    @Jim Don Bob

    The further we progress, the more embarrassed I am to tell people I am Episcopalian. Just end it already.

  89. @Sleep


    At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer to any young person with a modest intellect and a willingness to live in the Bay Area,

     

    That is a slap in the face to anyone who isnt at the top of the ladder looking down. Victim blaming as usual.

    I suspect female employment in CS was higher in the past because it hadn't been clearly distinguished from traditionally female jobs like typists, stenographers, and secretaries. Nowadays it has more in common with math than with writing, and math has always been a masculine field. No need to propose an invisible force that repels women and attracts men.

    Replies: @a boy and his dog, @Alden

    Exactly. Back in the day programming meant punching data into cards. It was a kind of transcription work, it had nothing to do with what we call programming now.

  90. @Abe
    Isn’t the author/her book a sort of meta-testimony for the opposition? Meaning, instead of making any meaningful contribution to machine learning, quantum computing, cryptography, etc., Miss Amy Chua-lite (Amy Chua herself being the daughter of a legendary electrical engineering professor) takes the easier path of whining and moaning her way to her own paltry bit of fame and fortune- i.e. becomes a SJW journalist?

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Neoconned

    Miss Chua has aged very well. I can’t tell her & her daughters apart….

  91. @Reg Cæsar

    "Unfortunately, there’s a wealth of evidence to suggest that if you set out to hire antisocial nerds, you’ll wind up hiring a lot more men than women."
     
    Who other than antisocial nerds would put in the 100-hour weeks that Microsoft and others demanded of them?

    Women have lives. Programmers don't.

    At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer...
     
    Huh?

    ...to any young person with a modest intellect and a willingness to live in the Bay Area,
     
    Oh! Important stipulation, where $3,000 a month will get you a walk-in closet with a sink and a commode.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @JW, @Twinkie, @oddsbodkins

    Insane rent and the most female-impoverished dating market in the country.

    Some “brotopia” this is.

  92. @AndrewR
    @Reg Cæsar

    It goes farther than that in Ookland.

    Replies: @Roderick Spode

    *West Oakland. But then you have to live there.

  93. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Jack D

    "Programming is one of those things that boys are naturally attracted to and most girls have no interest in. "

    In a longish IT career I've seen very few female coding nerds, the sort who are totally uninterested in the business they're employed in but only in the code and the interface. Females have tended to gravitate towards the analysis side (how it all fits together), and the business analysis side (how it meets the business need - lots of meetings here, lots of documents to read and produce).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    In a longish IT career I’ve seen very few female coding nerds, the sort who are totally uninterested in the business they’re employed in but only in the code and the interface.

    I have heard of them, but I have never known one despite working in technology for a good part of my life. I have seen women who are passably good at webcode and quite excellent at user interface and design, but I’ve never seen a woman who was seriously interested in algorithms, high level abstractions or genuinely being a “hacker.” Most of what I’ve seen from women who claim that is essentially cargo culting – which can be super annoying.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am guessing that they don't really exist or they would be poster girls like Maryam Mirzakhani. It's interesting BTW that Mirzakhani was from a horrible Muslim culture where they keep women under wraps and not from our wonderful "You Go Grrrl" culture.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Big Bill, @academic gossip

    , @academic gossip
    @Daniel Chieh

    Some of those women go into academic computer science, in line with the Damore thesis that differences in interests are the main cause of female underrepresentation.

    , @Brutusale
    @Daniel Chieh

    "Women" in tech are mostly like this freak. Compare and contrast the competing 'pedias on it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brianna_Wu

    https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Brianna_Wu

    This loon is running for Congress against a union-card-carrying Southie Irishman!

    As Glenn Reynolds is apt to say, this isn't the 21st Century I expected.

  94. This is a MUCH bigger problem than just computer science. Men everywhere have been out-competing women since forever! Better, stronger, faster, smarter, sneakier, quicker, more focused, more obsessed, more imaginative… the list just goes on and on. It’s like they have some sort of built-in advantage.

    Now you understand what women are REALLY saying when they stamp their little foot and say “MEN!” It’s damme frustrating, it really is.

  95. So Emily Chang is basically confirming that the crusade to make the computer industry more Woke is really just a war on socially awkward men. Nice to know.

    It’s also interesting how Chang almost completely reverses the narrative about Silicon Valley that I grew up on. A generation ago, those socially-awkward “neckbeard” male programmers were celebrated as liberators and countercultural heroes — a band of cheerful anarchists whose efforts helped smash the suffocating corporate bureaucracy which once dominated the computing world. Now, though, it turns out the cold, faceless corporations were actually the good guys, because they hired a lot of women to work with computers and paid them well — unlike those gross, smelly, woman-hating dorks who spent their time fiddling with pointless little “hobbyist computers” in their parents’ basements. The guys I grew up seeing lionized as “revolutionaries” are being retconned into some kind of male chauvinist reactionary vanguard.

    One wonders if we’ll see a similar retconning with the Hays Code in movies, or pop music prior to the arrival of Elvis and the Beatles. Elvis has already been partially retconned into a racist Nazi for allegedly “stealing” the work of black artists, but one wonders how long it will take for Woke leftists to connect the dots and realize that music and movies followed the same pattern as the tech industry: Letting a bunch of overgrown boys with crazy hair run wild ended up facilitating wholesale exploitation of women on a scale that would have been impossible under the older, more paternalistic order. This could all turn out to be quite funny.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Mr. Blank

    " A generation ago, those socially-awkward “neckbeard” male programmers were celebrated as liberators and countercultural heroes"

    See Bob Cringeley's "Accidental Empires".

    https://www.cringely.com/2013/02/10/accidental-empires-part-8-chapter-2-the-tyranny-of-the-normal-distribution/

  96. Back in those days most programmers worked in COBOL writing systems for businesses. This is more like making spreadsheets today than writing applications. The spreadsheet was invented in its modern form by Dan Bricklin in 1981. After that the nature of programming jobs quickly changed. You didn’t need bookkeeping types, but rather people who could deal with more abstract programming languages, mainly C, which started to come online in a big way in the early 1970s. There was an overlap because there were, and still are, large legacy COBOL installations, but minicomputers and personal computers expanded the applications to which computers could be used, so as a percentage of the market COBOL became miniscule. Not that there weren’t and are still talented female programmers, but the bulk of them were doing very routine work.

  97. @Ben Kurtz
    @utu

    "Karl Zielinski: And I’m a Polish Jew whose parents died in a Nazi prison camp. Now I’m standing beneath a spaceship that’s THE BRAINCHILD OF AN ACTUAL FRIGGIN' NAZI. I think we can say we HAVE NO SENSE OF THE COSMIC IRONIES INVOLVED HERE."

    There... fixed it for ya'!

    Replies: @Jack D

    While a number of prominent Soviet aircraft designers were Jewish (the G in MiG is Gurevich) and of course Jews figure prominently in the design of atomic weapons, Jews don’t seem to figure prominently as “rocket scientists”, who are considered to be the very epitome of modern scientific geniuses. Nor do they, in the US, really feature prominently in aircraft design either. This may be in part because this work was conducted by big WASPy corporations who were not amenable to hiring Jewish engineers back in the day but there must be more to it than that. Jews could have started their own firms like Dassault in France. I suppose the prospect of working for the Nazi von Braun was not too attractive – most of the Jews that von Braun worked with were wearing striped uniforms. But I don’t know what else. Maybe Jewish mothers wouldn’t let their kids go up in airplanes or play with explosives.

    It was interesting that they retconned a Jew into Hidden Figures for no good reason. I think in part it might have been because “Polish (Catholic) scientist/engineer” is not a recognizable stereotype to American movie audiences, except as the punchline of a joke. There were/are in fact quite a few brilliant (non-Jewish) Polish mathematicians/scientists, etc.but they don’t form a category in American popular culture the way that German scientists or Jewish scientists do. The French are also very good engineers who are not understood as such by Americans (in part this is their own fault as the French prefer to do their own thing and not collaborate with others. Oh, maybe collaborate is not a good choice of word.)

    This page lists the Jewish contributions to aeronautics:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-aeronautics-aviation-and-astronautics

    It’s not exactly an awe inspiring list if you compare it to the list of Jewish physicists, mathematicians, etc. They don’t list the glider pioneer Lilienthal who was of Jewish ancestry but I think grew up Christian.

    • Replies: @inertial
    @Jack D

    From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-aeronautics-aviation-and-astronautics


    Little is known of the personalities involved in the technical management of the Soviet space program. While it is quite likely that some of them are of Jewish origin, this cannot actually be proved.
     
    (facepalm)

    Here is a link that lists prominent Jewish scientists and engineers that contributed to both Soviet and American space programs, with 90% of names on the Soviet side. It's in Russian but Google Translate works fine.

    Here is the beginning (translated by Google):

    Some of the founders of Soviet cosmonautics were Ari Abramovich Shternfeld , Maurice Gavriilovich Leiteisen , Yuri Vasilyevich Kondratyuk and Alexander Borisovich Sherchevsky .

    Among the creators of the First Artificial Earth Satellite - Valentin Semenovich Etkin , Pavel Elyasberg , Jan Lvovich Ziman , Yakov Borisovich Zel'dovich , Yakov Samuelovich Shklovsky , Konstantin Iosifovich Gringauz , Yury Ilich Galperin , Semyon Samoylovich Moiseev , Vasily Ivanovich Moroz .

    Semyon Arievich Kosberg worked on the development of liquid rocket engines, and took part in the creation of projects "Luna-1", "Luna-2" and "Luna-3"; Kosberg created engines for spaceships such as Vostok, Voskhod and Soyuz (also for the first cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin's flight), and for the launch of interplanetary stations Venus and Mars.

    Yakov Isaevich Tregub , Naum Semyonovich Chernyakov , Yuriy Viktorovich Chudetsky , Mark Zinovievich Olevsky , Zinovy ​​Moiseevich Persits , Lev Abramovich Berlin , Semyon Aizikovich Lavochkin and others worked on the development of rocket technology.

    Ilya Matveyevich Gurovich built Baikonur.
     
    And so on and on.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    , @Ben Kurtz
    @Jack D

    Yes, I have long wondered over the seemingly underweight representation of Jews in aeronautical fields, especially when contrasted with some equally high-profile WWII and Cold War era pursuits such as nuclear physics and the development of the atom bomb.

    If you run through the roster of the Manhattan Project's most prominent scientists, it sounds like the membership roll of a Central European synagogue: J. Robert Oppenheimer, Edward Teller, Hans Bethe, Richard Feynman, James Franck, I.I. Rabi, Bruno Rossi, Emilio Segre, Louis Slotin, Leo Szilard, Stanislaw Ulam, John von Neumann and Eugene Wigner, for starters.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  98. @GSH
    The most annoying thing about this issue is that the real cause is actually more interesting. The real cause looks to be related to the tech bubbles. All you need to do is graph the raw numbers for CS degrees given out.

    Here's a blog post which did so a few years back: http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2014/10/women-in-computer-science.html

    Rather than sexism, an alternate explanation which fits better is risk-aversion and reaction to the boom/bust cycle that tech periodically goes through.

    Replies: @Stirner, @Anonymous

    I’m glad to the link to that article. It demonstrates how women were NOT particularly excluded from computer science in the 60’s and 70’s. It does show that women’s interest in the field started declining precipitously in the 1980’s.

    One iSteve sort of explanation: Revenge of the Nerds came out, entrenching the linkage between nerds and computers in the public consciousness. Women were not interested in working and mating with a bunch of “nerds” and started fleeing the profession.

    I put the question to a programmer friend of mine, and he had another explanation: the rise of object-oriented programming. According to him, that was a significant change to programming, and elevated the need for high-level conceptual thinking and systems design.

  99. @Paleo Liberal
    If I think back to the early to mod 1960s, the only computer programmer my family knew was a woman. She was the unmarried sister of my mother's brother-in-law (or, my uncle by marriage's sister). She made a lot of money, and left it all to her niece and nephews. One of her nephews is a computer programmer, who now has a new job. He lost his last job to an H1-B visa worker. Come to think of it, I lost MY previous programming job to an H1-B visa worker. Almost like there is a pattern.

    I think things have very much changed about computer programming in general. In the early days, they often looked for musicians to program. The idea being, (a) they were creative, and (b) they were able to see the big picture better. Such as, an oboe player could understand her role as part of the symphony.

    What has changed?

    At the beginning, computer programming was a less established field and nobody really had any idea where the field was going. That attracted the sort of people who may not have had great opportunities elsewhere, were willing to take a risk at a field where nobody knew if the field would last, and nobody knew if they could support a family out of it. Since many of the original programmers were women and/or musicians, why not look for more smart women and/or musicians?

    At some point, the creativity aspect has given way to the more nerdy engineering and math aspects. The sort of things that attract men, rather than women. There is still creativity, but in a more systematized manner.

    Also, with the reliance on H1-B visas, there is a certain dependence on the cultures of other countries, such as India. I have known a few female Indian programmers, but men greatly outnumber them.

    I have known a few very good female programmers over the years. Those tend to be the women who can think very analytically, and can make it in a more manly profession.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Anonymous, @Cortes

    I think things have very much changed about computer programming in general. In the early days, they often looked for musicians to program. The idea being, (a) they were creative, and (b) they were able to see the big picture better. Such as, an oboe player could understand her role as part of the symphony.

    I will say.

    Today, they still look for “musicians” to program, i.e. people who have encountered a few classes of JavaScript, can design websites with good artistic skills, know CSS and think that MongoDB is a database are let loose on backend systems that they barely comprehend and can’t design. Because the fundamental knowledge and about 10 years of experience and mentoring to do that are just missing.

    Why is that? These people are plentiful, easy to hire and relatively cheap. The boss thinks the “quick and dirty” solutions will make his life easier. Little does he know that he is now part of a general disaster area of ICT systems that is spreading as we read.

  100. @Daniel Chieh
    @YetAnotherAnon

    In a longish IT career I’ve seen very few female coding nerds, the sort who are totally uninterested in the business they’re employed in but only in the code and the interface.
     

    I have heard of them, but I have never known one despite working in technology for a good part of my life. I have seen women who are passably good at webcode and quite excellent at user interface and design, but I've never seen a woman who was seriously interested in algorithms, high level abstractions or genuinely being a "hacker." Most of what I've seen from women who claim that is essentially cargo culting - which can be super annoying.

    Replies: @Jack D, @academic gossip, @Brutusale

    I am guessing that they don’t really exist or they would be poster girls like Maryam Mirzakhani. It’s interesting BTW that Mirzakhani was from a horrible Muslim culture where they keep women under wraps and not from our wonderful “You Go Grrrl” culture.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    I noticed that a pretty overwhelming majority of female physics and EECS undergrads in college came from cultures not exactly known for treating women great-India, China, Iran, Russia. (Israel was a reoccuring odd exception.) Not all of them, but it was more disproportionate than the men.

    My own personal theory is that in cultures where women genuinely can't afford to mess around with whatever chances they get for a better life, they'll push aside whatever their own inclinations are and study what they need to. I even lived near a female Indian EE student who was studying that subject precisely because it got her out of an arranged marriage.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @PiltdownMan, @Escher

    , @Big Bill
    @Jack D

    There's a funny and thoughtful subtitled Norwegian documentary on the "gender equality paradox" that addresses your point (among others):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70

    , @academic gossip
    @Jack D

    They exist, but they rely more on family and school to bring out their talents. Mirzakhani, for example, went to a special school for gifted girls, and trained for the math competitions with a high-ability friend at the same school.

    In addition to the harsh but effective for incentives for girls to perform, Islamic countries also have separate girls' schools, which helps for nurturing girls math and science talent.

  101. What happened in a nutshell was the triumph of the PC over the mainframe.

    This changed the nature of the computer biz.

    What had once been an institutionalized job in only the biggest corporations became a Wild Wild West. Every business of every size bought a PC and needed help making it accessible and workable.

    So, a business that was once dominated by huge corporate players with defined, orderly jobs in an atmosphere policed by HR splintered into millions of pieces, each one unique and demanding a unique and creative solution.

    This was a fantastic and welcome change for a guy, like me, who wanted to fly solo. Not so great or welcoming for women who like order, HR departments, scheduled breaks, defined job limits, etc.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Shouting Thomas


    Not so great or welcoming for women who like order, HR departments, scheduled breaks, defined job limits, etc.
     
    The flip side of that is that once women capture an industry and impose the kind of order that they like, it's pretty much the death knell of creativity for that industry. The growth phase is over, no more new billionaires.

    So where will ambitious American men migrate (physically and occupationally) now that it seems like curtains for Silicon Valley?

    Replies: @Shouting Thomas, @Paul Murphy, @Achmed E. Newman

  102. @Thomm
    @Jack D


    This is the great irony of modern feminism – there is one job (having babies) that women are infinitely better at than men but that’s the job that they DON’T want to do.
     
    Feminism is about those who have a deep resentment of God for having been made a woman.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Feminism is about those who have a deep resentment of God for having been made a woman.

    An unattractive woman, you mean.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Twinkie

    No, they resent God for not being born men. The resentment will only increase as some women insist on pursuing the man stuff they're not made for.

    Whatever happened to embracing the real me? Being myself? Wasn't that the mantra of popular individualism? Then the real me can be a woman and enjoy all the women stuff I want. I do what I like and what I'm good at. I avoid the nasty and scary things that I dislike.

    These feminists are trying to force women into roles and jobs they'll hate and fail at. Then there's the spiritual struggles of self-doubt and insecurity. Dumb, dumb. Go for what you love doing, ladies. If that means nursing, teaching, and service jobs, then so be it. Likely it means lots of years being a wife and mother. So be it.

    I don't know why I'm posting this here as so many of you are men, and men that despise women anyway.

    Replies: @Alden, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Twinkie, @Whoever

    , @gunner29
    @Twinkie


    An unattractive woman, you mean.
     
    Last 25 years I came to realize this planet is organized for the benefit of two groups; attractive womyn and guys with money.

    The womyn demand outrageous amounts to spend time with you...first thing they determine is how much cash you got. Not enough? You're toast with her.

    Unattractive womyn, can't demand much money at all.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Twinkie

  103. @Mr. Blank
    So Emily Chang is basically confirming that the crusade to make the computer industry more Woke is really just a war on socially awkward men. Nice to know.

    It's also interesting how Chang almost completely reverses the narrative about Silicon Valley that I grew up on. A generation ago, those socially-awkward "neckbeard" male programmers were celebrated as liberators and countercultural heroes — a band of cheerful anarchists whose efforts helped smash the suffocating corporate bureaucracy which once dominated the computing world. Now, though, it turns out the cold, faceless corporations were actually the good guys, because they hired a lot of women to work with computers and paid them well — unlike those gross, smelly, woman-hating dorks who spent their time fiddling with pointless little "hobbyist computers" in their parents' basements. The guys I grew up seeing lionized as "revolutionaries" are being retconned into some kind of male chauvinist reactionary vanguard.

    One wonders if we'll see a similar retconning with the Hays Code in movies, or pop music prior to the arrival of Elvis and the Beatles. Elvis has already been partially retconned into a racist Nazi for allegedly "stealing" the work of black artists, but one wonders how long it will take for Woke leftists to connect the dots and realize that music and movies followed the same pattern as the tech industry: Letting a bunch of overgrown boys with crazy hair run wild ended up facilitating wholesale exploitation of women on a scale that would have been impossible under the older, more paternalistic order. This could all turn out to be quite funny.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    ” A generation ago, those socially-awkward “neckbeard” male programmers were celebrated as liberators and countercultural heroes”

    See Bob Cringeley’s “Accidental Empires”.

    https://www.cringely.com/2013/02/10/accidental-empires-part-8-chapter-2-the-tyranny-of-the-normal-distribution/

  104. @Shouting Thomas
    What happened in a nutshell was the triumph of the PC over the mainframe.

    This changed the nature of the computer biz.

    What had once been an institutionalized job in only the biggest corporations became a Wild Wild West. Every business of every size bought a PC and needed help making it accessible and workable.

    So, a business that was once dominated by huge corporate players with defined, orderly jobs in an atmosphere policed by HR splintered into millions of pieces, each one unique and demanding a unique and creative solution.

    This was a fantastic and welcome change for a guy, like me, who wanted to fly solo. Not so great or welcoming for women who like order, HR departments, scheduled breaks, defined job limits, etc.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Not so great or welcoming for women who like order, HR departments, scheduled breaks, defined job limits, etc.

    The flip side of that is that once women capture an industry and impose the kind of order that they like, it’s pretty much the death knell of creativity for that industry. The growth phase is over, no more new billionaires.

    So where will ambitious American men migrate (physically and occupationally) now that it seems like curtains for Silicon Valley?

    • Replies: @Shouting Thomas
    @Jack D

    I'm looking at VR and AR as the next innovative tech frontier.

    Both are still in their infancy. Standards haven't even been developed.

    But, I'm retired and I don't know if I want to work hard enough to be in the game.

    , @Paul Murphy
    @Jack D

    My sense is that you are correct in that the age of Wild West innovation and brutal meritocracy in Silicon Valley are permanently over.

    As to where that energy will go, I think an immense amount of it is being wasted in video gaming and opiate addiction. A somewhat more fruitful path would be the immense number of "4 hour work week" or digital nomad businesses springing up. But of course that path is not for everyone.

    Sometimes I look at the crazed ugliness of our living environments, remember the enormous number of frustrated men out there, and think that we need a large number of men to move to despised and dirt-cheap "flyover country," where they will begin a revival of American woodworking, leatherwork, and other traditional craftsmanship. Imagine once again having everyday goods of real quality instead of disposable Chinese trash delivered by Amazon.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @PiltdownMan

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Jack D


    The flip side of that is that once women capture an industry and impose the kind of order that they like, it’s pretty much the death knell of creativity for that industry.
     
    Exhibit A: Primary Education. I rest my case, your honor.
  105. This trend of positing that “women were once queens in IT” or “if only women had continued to be queens in IT then…” (modern algorithms would not be so racist?) is really despiriting.

    Poor Katherine Johnson gets rolled out on every occasion. As explained here;

    http://nautil.us/issue/43/heroes/the-woman-the-mercury-astronauts-couldnt-do-without

    She did not work WITH computers. She WAS the computer and math-technician: she was responsible for setting up the equations describing the path of Mercury and doing computation by hand:

    “In the recovery of an artificial earth satellite it is necessary to bring the satellite over a preselected point above the earth from which the re-entry is to be initiated,” she wrote. Equation 3 described the satellite’s velocity. Equation 19 fixed the longitude position of the satellite at time T. Equation A3 accounted for errors in longitude. Equation A8 adjusted for Earth’s west-to-east rotation and oblation. She conferred with Ted Skopinski, consulted her textbooks, and did her own plotting. Over the months of 1959, the 34-page end product took shape: 22 principal equations, nine error equations, two launch case studies, three reference texts, two tables with sample calculations, and three pages of charts.

    Indeed, the computer guys were in the OTHER room:

    In the final section of the Azimuth Angle research report she completed in 1959, Katherine had marched through the calculations for two different sample orbits, one following an eastward launch and the other a westward, as Glenn was scheduled to fly. Once she had worked out the math for the test scenarios on her calculating machine, substituting the hypothetical numbers for variables in the system of equations, the Mission Planning and Analysis Division within the Space Task Group took her math and programmed it into their IBM 704. Using the same hypothetical numbers, they ran the program on the electronic computer, to the pleasing end that there was “very good agreement” between the IBM’s output and Katherine’s calculations. The work she had done in 1959, double-checking the IBM’s numbers, was a dress rehearsal—a simulation, like the ones John Glenn had been carrying out—for the task that would be laid on her desk on the defining day of her career.

    Here is a book with a similar dubious premiss from MIT Press:

    https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/programmed-inequality

    Programmed Inequality: How Britain Discarded Women Technologists and Lost Its Edge in Computing

    By Marie Hicks

    In 1944, Britain led the world in electronic computing. By 1974, the British computer industry was all but extinct. What happened in the intervening thirty years holds lessons for all postindustrial superpowers. As Britain struggled to use technology to retain its global power, the nation’s inability to manage its technical labor force hobbled its transition into the information age.

    In Programmed Inequality, Marie Hicks explores the story of labor feminization and gendered technocracy that undercut British efforts to computerize. That failure sprang from the government’s systematic neglect of its largest trained technical workforce simply because they were women. Women were a hidden engine of growth in high technology from World War II to the 1960s. As computing experienced a gender flip, becoming male-identified in the 1960s and 1970s, labor problems grew into structural ones and gender discrimination caused the nation’s largest computer user—the civil service and sprawling public sector—to make decisions that were disastrous for the British computer industry and the nation as a whole.

    Yeah well. Relying on the British State to create a computer industry was the mistake to avoid. France had the same problem. That and being burnt out by WWII and the colonial wars thereafter. Does anyone remember early computer companies from the UK of France?

    In the US, there were “IBM and the Seven Dwarfs”. It was US hardware that got bought, definitely.

    http://www.dvorak.org/blog/ibm-and-the-seven-dwarfs-dwarf-one-burroughs/

    IBM and the Seven Dwarfs — It was a coinage of the mid-1960’s as IBM dominated the computer business. IBM and the Seven Dwarfs was how the business was described. By 1965 IBM had a 65.3-percent market share of the industry. The seven dwarfs shared the rest. They were: Burroughs, Sperry Rand (formerly Remington Rand), Control Data, Honeywell, General Electric, RCA and NCR.

    (What about Japan? They built their own industry, although with a bit of delay, and probably help from MITI, one would like to know more about this.)

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    @El Dato

    When I was at Burroughs in the late 70s. Burroughs was number 2 by a nose over the other companies of the day. The only company in Europe that anybody knew about was Groupe Bull in France.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupe_Bull

    I even spent some time in Scotland at a Burroughs subsidiary. Most of the computer companies in GB were American subsidiaries. They had good engineers and at the time were dirt cheap.

  106. Maybe Steven Levy can come out with a new edition of his pop-history classic, with a more Woke subtitle: “Hackers: Wreckers, hoarders and running dogs who tried fruitlessly to reverse the arc of moral progress, and are now thankfully consigned to the dustbin of history.”

  107. @Jack D
    @Shouting Thomas


    Not so great or welcoming for women who like order, HR departments, scheduled breaks, defined job limits, etc.
     
    The flip side of that is that once women capture an industry and impose the kind of order that they like, it's pretty much the death knell of creativity for that industry. The growth phase is over, no more new billionaires.

    So where will ambitious American men migrate (physically and occupationally) now that it seems like curtains for Silicon Valley?

    Replies: @Shouting Thomas, @Paul Murphy, @Achmed E. Newman

    I’m looking at VR and AR as the next innovative tech frontier.

    Both are still in their infancy. Standards haven’t even been developed.

    But, I’m retired and I don’t know if I want to work hard enough to be in the game.

  108. @Rosamond Vincy
    @Corn

    Girls in my Jr. High knew how to fend off the local equivalents of Asari or Franco. They also knew the difference between guys like them and the psycho who was hiding on the path between the library and the parochial school, waiting for unaccompanied girls to attack. Your mom, your older sister, and/or friends told you how to cope with the first type before you went out on your first date or got your first job.

    As for the second, now the Femi-nutcases would probably be saying that we should Take Back the Path, and avoiding it would be letting the patriarchy win, or some such thing. My dad simply told me never to use the path. He also taught me some martial arts moves he'd learned in the Navy, just in case. Thanks, Dad!

    Replies: @Corn

    “avoiding it would be letting the patriarchy win, or some such thing.”

    Right. The old “Don’t tell us to protect ourselves, teach men not to rape!”

    Funny how they never boycott locksmiths.

    “Don’t tell us to lock our doors, teach burglars not to burgle!”

  109. @SimpleSong
    Ugh, the Hidden Figures thing. How many times must this be debunked?

    Many mathematically equations cannot be solved analytically but must be solved using numerical techniques. For example: suppose a car is accelerating at some rate and you want to know the position. You can use calculus and immediately derive that d = 1/2 a t^2. Or, you can say that the position at time zero is zero, the velocity is zero, and the acceleration is whatever, then at time 0.01 seconds calculate the new velocity, acceleration, position, and then at 0.02 seconds, and so on, and build that up to whatever arbitrary time you wish to know about. Obviously the first way is very fast and exact, and the latter is very tedious and inexact. However many equations can only be solved using the latter techniques.

    Today we would just do these tedious calculations on a computer; it is well within the capability of many high school students to make a computer program or, heck, an excel spreadsheet to do this. However, prior to the advent of powerful computers to do numerical simulations, a 'computer' was a person, generally a woman, who would do these incredibly boring and repetitive arithmetic calculations by hand.

    That was the role of the women in Hidden Figures. They were human computers. That is not a compliment. They were replaced by pocket calculators, which were faster and more accurate.

    Early female programmers, similar story, their role was basically clerical work. Please don't start with me about Ada Lovelace who for unclear reasons is more widely known than Charles Babbage, the guy who, you know, actually designed the first modern computer. And Grace Hopper, yeah, not a bad career, but you don't see Dijkstra or Kernighan or Richtie getting colleges named after them at Yale.

    Replies: @Jack D

    That was the role of the women in Hidden Figures. They were human computers. That is not a compliment. They were replaced by pocket calculators, which were faster and more accurate.

    Most of what you say is spot on but this part is not quite right. First of all, the women in Hidden Figures already had (mechanical desk) calculators, AKA adding machines. These could even do multiplication by repeated addition.

    2nd what they did could not be replaced by the calculators of their time and instead they were replaced by early computers.

    However, what they did COULD be replaced by a modern programmable calculator, say a TI-83 (which has capabilities similar to early mainframe computers. An iPhone has processing power similar to 1980s supercomputers). The TI can do what these “Hidden” geniuses did, faster and better and it’s not even a very good device.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Jack D

    Jack, sometimes you are a tedious fellow. The "not quite right" just reminds me about everything you post. Except your posts that I like. So stop invoking the TI-83, which students abandon with surprising frequency. And they have done so since at least 2008.

    If you are not a doofus, get a TI-89.

  110. @Jack D
    @MG

    Are you sure? I remember reading in one of Feynman's books that the group of "computers" he was in charge of consisted of male draftees who had done well in high school math. Because of secrecy, at first they didn't tell them what they were working on and just told them, military style, "Add up these columns of figures, that's an order." And they were going very slowly, playing pranks on each other, not getting stuff done, acting like bored 18 year olds. So Feynman got permission to tell them a little about what they were doing and he gave them a few lessons on the problems they were trying to solve so they understood what those rows of figures meant and what they were trying to optimize. Once he did that, their productivity exploded - they figured out all kinds of clever shortcuts, ways to work in parallel, color coding the card decks (they had punch card tabulators which were a sort of mechanical computer that used the same punch cards that survived into the computer age), etc. They competed with each other to see who was the fastest, etc. Because they were really bright and competitive white guys and that's the kind of stuff that young white guys do when you turn them loose at a problem.

    I'm sure that if the computers were all female they would have sat patiently and added up those figures all day long and would not have changed a thing.

    Replies: @Richard of Melbourne, @MG

    “Because they were really bright and competitive white guys and that’s the kind of stuff that young white guys do when you turn them loose at a problem.”

    Something else those guys do when you turn them loose at a problem: Western Civilisation.

  111. @Clifford Brown
    The Policy Wonk Brain Trust at Vox is slowly starting to realize that their DACA government shut-down trump card may be a bust.

    More tax cuts, anyone?

    Rather than giving the GOP’s most extreme immigration hardliners something they want, Democrats would have to give Republicans who don’t particularly care about immigration something they do care about — a tax cut, a deregulation, a missile shield, whatever.
     
    https://www.vox.com/2018/2/6/16973962/daca-tax-cuts

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/6/16973762/senate-democrats-daca-shutdown-february-8

    Replies: @Yak-15

    The whole DACA snafu the Democrats are trying to pull reminds me of the scene in Blazing Saddles where the black sheriff threatens to off himself if he doesn’t get what he wants.

  112. If I were a conspiracist, Ms. Chang’s attempt to bring higher percentage of females into silicon valley will only result in more programming done overseas. The valley will create more SJW showcase jobs while laying off programmers and than replacing them by creating programming centers via “supposedly independent contractors” in India, China and Russia which will still be dominated by men.

  113. @Jack D
    @Shouting Thomas


    Not so great or welcoming for women who like order, HR departments, scheduled breaks, defined job limits, etc.
     
    The flip side of that is that once women capture an industry and impose the kind of order that they like, it's pretty much the death knell of creativity for that industry. The growth phase is over, no more new billionaires.

    So where will ambitious American men migrate (physically and occupationally) now that it seems like curtains for Silicon Valley?

    Replies: @Shouting Thomas, @Paul Murphy, @Achmed E. Newman

    My sense is that you are correct in that the age of Wild West innovation and brutal meritocracy in Silicon Valley are permanently over.

    As to where that energy will go, I think an immense amount of it is being wasted in video gaming and opiate addiction. A somewhat more fruitful path would be the immense number of “4 hour work week” or digital nomad businesses springing up. But of course that path is not for everyone.

    Sometimes I look at the crazed ugliness of our living environments, remember the enormous number of frustrated men out there, and think that we need a large number of men to move to despised and dirt-cheap “flyover country,” where they will begin a revival of American woodworking, leatherwork, and other traditional craftsmanship. Imagine once again having everyday goods of real quality instead of disposable Chinese trash delivered by Amazon.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Paul Murphy


    Sometimes I look at the crazed ugliness of our living environments, remember the enormous number of frustrated men out there, and think that we need a large number of men to move to despised and dirt-cheap “flyover country,” where they will begin a revival of American woodworking, leatherwork, and other traditional craftsmanship. Imagine once again having everyday goods of real quality instead of disposable Chinese trash delivered by Amazon.
     
    Agreed; however the other part of that equation is design, and I can tell you that a vanishingly small percentage of clients are willing to opt for anything but the cheapest 'solution' available. The carriage trade chases that tiny % and materials and craftsmanship get marked up accordingly.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @PiltdownMan
    @Paul Murphy


    Imagine once again having everyday goods of real quality instead of disposable Chinese trash delivered by Amazon.
     
    I think there has been a real shift in preferences, not just because people prefer larger quantities of stuff and lower prices, but increasingly, people don't want to buy things that last forever.

    There is now a strong, built-in, expectation among a whole generation used to non-stop news about technological change that they will be discarding what they have every few years for something new, and thus, automatically "better." This attitude may be extending to what were previously considered to be consumer long-term durables.

    A friend who is a European immigrant recently inherited very functional furniture (a desk, chairs, an armoire and so on), handed down in his family since the early 1800s. He expects to be using it all his life. A lot of folks I know today would be horrified at a value system that envisages being "stuck" with the same furniture (for life!) and being content with the prospect.

    People want stuff, and they want disposable, rickety stuff, so they can enjoy getting new stuff a few years down the road.

  114. @Jack D
    @Ben Kurtz

    While a number of prominent Soviet aircraft designers were Jewish (the G in MiG is Gurevich) and of course Jews figure prominently in the design of atomic weapons, Jews don't seem to figure prominently as "rocket scientists", who are considered to be the very epitome of modern scientific geniuses. Nor do they, in the US, really feature prominently in aircraft design either. This may be in part because this work was conducted by big WASPy corporations who were not amenable to hiring Jewish engineers back in the day but there must be more to it than that. Jews could have started their own firms like Dassault in France. I suppose the prospect of working for the Nazi von Braun was not too attractive - most of the Jews that von Braun worked with were wearing striped uniforms. But I don't know what else. Maybe Jewish mothers wouldn't let their kids go up in airplanes or play with explosives.

    It was interesting that they retconned a Jew into Hidden Figures for no good reason. I think in part it might have been because "Polish (Catholic) scientist/engineer" is not a recognizable stereotype to American movie audiences, except as the punchline of a joke. There were/are in fact quite a few brilliant (non-Jewish) Polish mathematicians/scientists, etc.but they don't form a category in American popular culture the way that German scientists or Jewish scientists do. The French are also very good engineers who are not understood as such by Americans (in part this is their own fault as the French prefer to do their own thing and not collaborate with others. Oh, maybe collaborate is not a good choice of word.)

    This page lists the Jewish contributions to aeronautics:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-aeronautics-aviation-and-astronautics

    It's not exactly an awe inspiring list if you compare it to the list of Jewish physicists, mathematicians, etc. They don't list the glider pioneer Lilienthal who was of Jewish ancestry but I think grew up Christian.

    Replies: @inertial, @Ben Kurtz

    From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-aeronautics-aviation-and-astronautics

    Little is known of the personalities involved in the technical management of the Soviet space program. While it is quite likely that some of them are of Jewish origin, this cannot actually be proved.

    (facepalm)

    Here is a link that lists prominent Jewish scientists and engineers that contributed to both Soviet and American space programs, with 90% of names on the Soviet side. It’s in Russian but Google Translate works fine.

    Here is the beginning (translated by Google):

    Some of the founders of Soviet cosmonautics were Ari Abramovich Shternfeld , Maurice Gavriilovich Leiteisen , Yuri Vasilyevich Kondratyuk and Alexander Borisovich Sherchevsky .

    Among the creators of the First Artificial Earth Satellite – Valentin Semenovich Etkin , Pavel Elyasberg , Jan Lvovich Ziman , Yakov Borisovich Zel’dovich , Yakov Samuelovich Shklovsky , Konstantin Iosifovich Gringauz , Yury Ilich Galperin , Semyon Samoylovich Moiseev , Vasily Ivanovich Moroz .

    Semyon Arievich Kosberg worked on the development of liquid rocket engines, and took part in the creation of projects “Luna-1”, “Luna-2” and “Luna-3”; Kosberg created engines for spaceships such as Vostok, Voskhod and Soyuz (also for the first cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin’s flight), and for the launch of interplanetary stations Venus and Mars.

    Yakov Isaevich Tregub , Naum Semyonovich Chernyakov , Yuriy Viktorovich Chudetsky , Mark Zinovievich Olevsky , Zinovy ​​Moiseevich Persits , Lev Abramovich Berlin , Semyon Aizikovich Lavochkin and others worked on the development of rocket technology.

    Ilya Matveyevich Gurovich built Baikonur.

    And so on and on.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @inertial

    As I said before, there were a lot of Jews involved with aeronautics and space on the Soviet side and very few in the US (vs say math or physics where there were tons of prominent Jews on both sides of the Iron Curtain). And this despite the discrimination that Jews experienced in the USSR. So what is the explanation?

    Replies: @newrouter, @J.Ross, @inertial

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @inertial

    You bastard! I have not laughed at a


    (facepalm)
     
    since the Babylonians got their comeuppance!
  115. @unit472
    Given that in the 1960's neither Microsoft, Oracle, Apple , Google, etc. had yet to exist it would have only taken a few entrepreneurial female programmers to have changed the course of history and built the first female mega corporation in world history. That no women programmers did says either they did not have what Tommy Lasorda once called the 'necessities' to be a pioneer in a pioneering industry or the vision to see what was just ahead.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @njguy73

    Al Campanis

  116. @Paleo Liberal
    If I think back to the early to mod 1960s, the only computer programmer my family knew was a woman. She was the unmarried sister of my mother's brother-in-law (or, my uncle by marriage's sister). She made a lot of money, and left it all to her niece and nephews. One of her nephews is a computer programmer, who now has a new job. He lost his last job to an H1-B visa worker. Come to think of it, I lost MY previous programming job to an H1-B visa worker. Almost like there is a pattern.

    I think things have very much changed about computer programming in general. In the early days, they often looked for musicians to program. The idea being, (a) they were creative, and (b) they were able to see the big picture better. Such as, an oboe player could understand her role as part of the symphony.

    What has changed?

    At the beginning, computer programming was a less established field and nobody really had any idea where the field was going. That attracted the sort of people who may not have had great opportunities elsewhere, were willing to take a risk at a field where nobody knew if the field would last, and nobody knew if they could support a family out of it. Since many of the original programmers were women and/or musicians, why not look for more smart women and/or musicians?

    At some point, the creativity aspect has given way to the more nerdy engineering and math aspects. The sort of things that attract men, rather than women. There is still creativity, but in a more systematized manner.

    Also, with the reliance on H1-B visas, there is a certain dependence on the cultures of other countries, such as India. I have known a few female Indian programmers, but men greatly outnumber them.

    I have known a few very good female programmers over the years. Those tend to be the women who can think very analytically, and can make it in a more manly profession.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Anonymous, @Cortes

    Women were prominent in early computing because they were recruited from the typing pool – operating a computer was seen as little different to operating a typewriter.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Anonymous

    I remember those days . Another thing is that the secretaries were the ones who operated and fixed the first mimeograph then the Xerox copiers, those big clunky adding machines and all other office machines.

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @Anonymous

    That makes sense.

    I was going to suggest that the demographics of programming has more to do with the lifestyle and ends.

    My limited knowledge of early programming indicates it was more tactile and more simply focused on performing practical tasks.

    Early/primitive religions (such as shamanism) also have more female involvement. Females are more drawn to magic--i.e., ways to influence the world that have clear and immediate benefits to people. As religion became more abstract, more rational, and more organized, women dropped out and were replaced by male priests/theologians. Recently, as theology/dogma has become less important than therapeutic ends of ministry, women are returning to religious leadership.

    The other thing that replaced shamanism and magic was medicine. Early doctors were systematizers who developed theoretical explanations for their treatments. In recent decades, as the field of medicine has become less focused on science and reflection and more on following algorithms and health promotion, women have become more attracted to it.

    My guess is that as programming became more complex and abstract--more "in the head" and removed from immediate real-world results--it became less interesting and less accessible to women.

    , @Danand
    @Anonymous

    Women were prominent in early computing because they were recruited from the typing pool – operating a computer was seen as little different to operating a typewriter."

    This is spot on the money. 35 - 40 years ago my observation was that for every man that could type 50 or so WPM semi-accurately, there were at least a dozen women who could do so. Most men simply had limited experience with typing; 2 finger mode was the male norm then.

  117. @unit472
    Given that in the 1960's neither Microsoft, Oracle, Apple , Google, etc. had yet to exist it would have only taken a few entrepreneurial female programmers to have changed the course of history and built the first female mega corporation in world history. That no women programmers did says either they did not have what Tommy Lasorda once called the 'necessities' to be a pioneer in a pioneering industry or the vision to see what was just ahead.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @njguy73

    It was Dodger GM Al Campanis who said that Blacks may not have the necessities to be big-league managers. Six years later, Cito Gaston led the Blue Jays to back-to-back World Series titles.

  118. @utu

    Karl Zielinski: Mary, a person with an engineer's mind should be an engineer. You can't be a computer the rest of your life.
    Mary Jackson: Mr. Zielinski, I'm a negro woman. I'm not gonna entertain the impossible.
    Karl Zielinski: And I'm a Polish Jew whose parents died in a Nazi prison camp. Now I'm standing beneath a spaceship that's going to carry an astronaut to the stars. I think we can say we are living the impossible. Let me ask you, if you were a white male, would you wish to be an engineer?
    Mary Jackson: I wouldn't have to. I'd already be one.
     
    Karl Zielinski in Hidden Figures is based on Kazimierz R. Czarnecki who was not Jewish. It seems like no story can be told w/o reference to Jews and Holocaust.

    Replies: @Ben Kurtz, @J.Ross

    This is part of the history-erasing jealous ownership of suffering, now represented by Israel attempting to blame Poland for German actions. It’s an inevitable result of psychopathically misunderstanding suffering only as a negotiatory fulcrum, like the guy in Texas Chainsaw Massacre who cuts himself and then attempts to extort money. Here the perverse chauvinism of the Jewish producers and the black audiences overlaps, because acknowledging Polish suffering would mean complicating their straw man of the evil white oppressor, where the whole point of this movie is to unify probable Democrats around hatred of a simple enemy. So he has to become Jewish in order to be sympathetic and to be able to talk about suffering, because in this fantasy world, whites do not suffer. Of course, in real life, blacks aren’t really very fond of Jews, but nobody in Hollywood acknowledges that, any more than they acknowledge the hilariously elaborate ideas mestizos have about Jewish conspiracy. In Hollywood, Robert Loggia deliberately loses the card game he plays with his mestizo construction crew and then they all sing kumbaya.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @J.Ross


    Israel attempting to blame Poland for German actions.
     
    This is highly tendentious. You could also say that Poland is attempting to deny its own complicity with German actions.

    Certainly the Germans deserve (and have accepted) the vast share of responsibility but this does not totally exonerate the Poles. Maybe the Germans are 90% responsible and the Poles are 10% responsible but 10% is not nothing and it is false for the Poles to say that they had NOTHING, nothing at all to do with extermination of the Jews and anyone who says different should go to jail. Polish conduct during the war ranged the full gamut from horrific to indifferent to heroic but the Poles have to accept the truth that there were some who were glad to get rid of the Jews and did all they could to help the Germans (sometimes even took action on their own). This has been amply documented in a thousand different ways. Not to mention things like the Kielce pogrom that happened AFTER the Germans were gone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

    The double irony is that the same people who are saying that Poland has NO responsibility for the Holocaust are also the first ones to tell you that they don't really like Jews - you can't have it both ways.

    That being said, 42 Jews died in the Kielce pogrom while the Germans killed 3 million Polish Jews, so the Germans operated on an organized and industrial scale and Polish anti-Semitism was more of a peasants with pitchforks type of thing.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @newrouter, @dfordoom, @MarkinLA

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @J.Ross

    Agree. (Mostly)

  119. @Twinkie
    @Thomm


    Feminism is about those who have a deep resentment of God for having been made a woman.
     
    An unattractive woman, you mean.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @gunner29

    No, they resent God for not being born men. The resentment will only increase as some women insist on pursuing the man stuff they’re not made for.

    Whatever happened to embracing the real me? Being myself? Wasn’t that the mantra of popular individualism? Then the real me can be a woman and enjoy all the women stuff I want. I do what I like and what I’m good at. I avoid the nasty and scary things that I dislike.

    These feminists are trying to force women into roles and jobs they’ll hate and fail at. Then there’s the spiritual struggles of self-doubt and insecurity. Dumb, dumb. Go for what you love doing, ladies. If that means nursing, teaching, and service jobs, then so be it. Likely it means lots of years being a wife and mother. So be it.

    I don’t know why I’m posting this here as so many of you are men, and men that despise women anyway.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @stillCARealist

    Try, unz seems to be more older men than any other pro White site on the web.

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @stillCARealist


    and men that despise women anyway.
     
    Speak for yourself. Speaking for myself, I LOVE women.
    , @Twinkie
    @stillCARealist


    men that despise women anyway.
     
    I hope that is not directed at me, because I cherish my wife and love my daughters. I do not hate women - they civilize men and are absolutely essential for a peaceful society. I merely bemoan that so many have fallen prey to “feminism,” though the clock seems to be turning on that.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @L Woods

    , @Whoever
    @stillCARealist


    I don’t know why I’m posting this here as so many of you are men, and men that despise women anyway.
     
    I've wondered how many bodies some of these commenters have on them. If Ted Bundy were around, he'd be posting.
  120. @Twinkie
    By the way, my wife has been watching “Halt and Catch Fire” while on the treadmill. It’s a fictionalized account of computing through the ‘80s and 90’s through the prism of four protagonists, two of them women. At one point, the two women run a company together. My wife rolls her eyes and says, “Right, genius women programmers were at the vanguard of the Internet.” Then a little later, after the intra-female drama destroys the company, she says, smiling, “Now it’s a documentary.”

    My wife has a STEM doctorate, was an executive, and ran a small company with me. She’s the first one to admit that women often engage in needless drama and generally make poor leaders with few exceptions. At our company, she let me be the CEO and the disciplinarian “dad” while she was the sympathetic “mom” even though the company was in her field, not mine.

    Replies: @njguy73

    What’s your wife’s STEM doctorate in?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @njguy73

    Sorry, no comment on that.

  121. @Jim Don Bob
    @Roderick Spode

    God is definitely a woman: https://www.dailywire.com/news/26692/us-episcopal-diocese-votes-stop-using-masculine-paul-bois

    Replies: @Yak-15

    The further we progress, the more embarrassed I am to tell people I am Episcopalian. Just end it already.

  122. @Paleo Liberal
    If I think back to the early to mod 1960s, the only computer programmer my family knew was a woman. She was the unmarried sister of my mother's brother-in-law (or, my uncle by marriage's sister). She made a lot of money, and left it all to her niece and nephews. One of her nephews is a computer programmer, who now has a new job. He lost his last job to an H1-B visa worker. Come to think of it, I lost MY previous programming job to an H1-B visa worker. Almost like there is a pattern.

    I think things have very much changed about computer programming in general. In the early days, they often looked for musicians to program. The idea being, (a) they were creative, and (b) they were able to see the big picture better. Such as, an oboe player could understand her role as part of the symphony.

    What has changed?

    At the beginning, computer programming was a less established field and nobody really had any idea where the field was going. That attracted the sort of people who may not have had great opportunities elsewhere, were willing to take a risk at a field where nobody knew if the field would last, and nobody knew if they could support a family out of it. Since many of the original programmers were women and/or musicians, why not look for more smart women and/or musicians?

    At some point, the creativity aspect has given way to the more nerdy engineering and math aspects. The sort of things that attract men, rather than women. There is still creativity, but in a more systematized manner.

    Also, with the reliance on H1-B visas, there is a certain dependence on the cultures of other countries, such as India. I have known a few female Indian programmers, but men greatly outnumber them.

    I have known a few very good female programmers over the years. Those tend to be the women who can think very analytically, and can make it in a more manly profession.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Anonymous, @Cortes

    The notion that musicians might be useful in computer science may have its origins in…Hollywood TRUTH!

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr

    What a beautiful, clever woman. And the music part is great too.

  123. @Twinkie
    @Thomm


    Feminism is about those who have a deep resentment of God for having been made a woman.
     
    An unattractive woman, you mean.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @gunner29

    An unattractive woman, you mean.

    Last 25 years I came to realize this planet is organized for the benefit of two groups; attractive womyn and guys with money.

    The womyn demand outrageous amounts to spend time with you…first thing they determine is how much cash you got. Not enough? You’re toast with her.

    Unattractive womyn, can’t demand much money at all.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @gunner29


    Unattractive womyn, can’t demand much money at all.
     
    What women (sorry womyn) do you spend time with?
    , @Twinkie
    @gunner29


    Last 25 years I came to realize this planet is organized for the benefit of two groups; attractive womyn and guys with money.
     
    Sure, attractive women and men with resources have it easier. But not everything in this world is for just such people.

    Besides, "attractive" is not just a physical attribute in women. When men get a bit older, many realize that women with a pleasant personality and a quick wit become very attractive (so long as, of course, they are not physically repulsive, obviously, and for most that is not hard to avoid). Similarly, men can earn resources.

    Again, it's easier for some than others, but even for those others, it's not insurmountable.

    And then there are other avenues of life where those characteristics are not as relevant. "Starving artists" appeal to many women. Rugged blue collar men do as well. Women who are kind and self-sacrificial (and eager to please) are always in demand. There are always some who are attracted to high intelligence, whether in men or women.

    On the other side of the coin, what is not in demand and most unattractive, for either sex, is whininess and a sense of entitlement that the world owes him/her something.
  124. @Jack D
    @Ben Kurtz

    While a number of prominent Soviet aircraft designers were Jewish (the G in MiG is Gurevich) and of course Jews figure prominently in the design of atomic weapons, Jews don't seem to figure prominently as "rocket scientists", who are considered to be the very epitome of modern scientific geniuses. Nor do they, in the US, really feature prominently in aircraft design either. This may be in part because this work was conducted by big WASPy corporations who were not amenable to hiring Jewish engineers back in the day but there must be more to it than that. Jews could have started their own firms like Dassault in France. I suppose the prospect of working for the Nazi von Braun was not too attractive - most of the Jews that von Braun worked with were wearing striped uniforms. But I don't know what else. Maybe Jewish mothers wouldn't let their kids go up in airplanes or play with explosives.

    It was interesting that they retconned a Jew into Hidden Figures for no good reason. I think in part it might have been because "Polish (Catholic) scientist/engineer" is not a recognizable stereotype to American movie audiences, except as the punchline of a joke. There were/are in fact quite a few brilliant (non-Jewish) Polish mathematicians/scientists, etc.but they don't form a category in American popular culture the way that German scientists or Jewish scientists do. The French are also very good engineers who are not understood as such by Americans (in part this is their own fault as the French prefer to do their own thing and not collaborate with others. Oh, maybe collaborate is not a good choice of word.)

    This page lists the Jewish contributions to aeronautics:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-aeronautics-aviation-and-astronautics

    It's not exactly an awe inspiring list if you compare it to the list of Jewish physicists, mathematicians, etc. They don't list the glider pioneer Lilienthal who was of Jewish ancestry but I think grew up Christian.

    Replies: @inertial, @Ben Kurtz

    Yes, I have long wondered over the seemingly underweight representation of Jews in aeronautical fields, especially when contrasted with some equally high-profile WWII and Cold War era pursuits such as nuclear physics and the development of the atom bomb.

    If you run through the roster of the Manhattan Project’s most prominent scientists, it sounds like the membership roll of a Central European synagogue: J. Robert Oppenheimer, Edward Teller, Hans Bethe, Richard Feynman, James Franck, I.I. Rabi, Bruno Rossi, Emilio Segre, Louis Slotin, Leo Szilard, Stanislaw Ulam, John von Neumann and Eugene Wigner, for starters.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Ben Kurtz

    Von Neumann, Szilard, Wigner, and Teller alone were all born in the same neighborhood in Budapest. They pretty much followed the career trajectory: Hungary->Germany->America.

    Replies: @Unladen Swallow, @Charles Erwin Wilson

  125. There were/are in fact quite a few brilliant (non-Jewish) Polish mathematicians/scientists, etc.but they don’t form a category in American popular culture the way that German scientists or Jewish scientists do.

    Copernicus, Curie, Chopin, Eddie Stanky, Jerry Sandusky… simplifying your name certainly helps.

    Especially with Polish. Gaston Dorren’s chapter on Polish highlighted the irony of the internal consistency of its orthography compared with its highly alien look to foreigners. But on that score, it has nothing on Hmong.

    https://languagewriter.com/lingo/

  126. @Jack D
    @MG

    Are you sure? I remember reading in one of Feynman's books that the group of "computers" he was in charge of consisted of male draftees who had done well in high school math. Because of secrecy, at first they didn't tell them what they were working on and just told them, military style, "Add up these columns of figures, that's an order." And they were going very slowly, playing pranks on each other, not getting stuff done, acting like bored 18 year olds. So Feynman got permission to tell them a little about what they were doing and he gave them a few lessons on the problems they were trying to solve so they understood what those rows of figures meant and what they were trying to optimize. Once he did that, their productivity exploded - they figured out all kinds of clever shortcuts, ways to work in parallel, color coding the card decks (they had punch card tabulators which were a sort of mechanical computer that used the same punch cards that survived into the computer age), etc. They competed with each other to see who was the fastest, etc. Because they were really bright and competitive white guys and that's the kind of stuff that young white guys do when you turn them loose at a problem.

    I'm sure that if the computers were all female they would have sat patiently and added up those figures all day long and would not have changed a thing.

    Replies: @Richard of Melbourne, @MG

    Yes, Feynman’s staff was composed of women. See –

    https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/human-computers-los-alamos

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @MG

    Not according to Feynman.

    Read this article:

    http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/34/3/FeynmanLosAlamos.htm

    (Very amusing, well worth the read even if Feynman tends to self-aggrandize). Search for Special Engineer Detachment around 3/4 of the way down - that's the anecdote that I mentioned earlier.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

  127. @Ben Kurtz
    @Jack D

    Yes, I have long wondered over the seemingly underweight representation of Jews in aeronautical fields, especially when contrasted with some equally high-profile WWII and Cold War era pursuits such as nuclear physics and the development of the atom bomb.

    If you run through the roster of the Manhattan Project's most prominent scientists, it sounds like the membership roll of a Central European synagogue: J. Robert Oppenheimer, Edward Teller, Hans Bethe, Richard Feynman, James Franck, I.I. Rabi, Bruno Rossi, Emilio Segre, Louis Slotin, Leo Szilard, Stanislaw Ulam, John von Neumann and Eugene Wigner, for starters.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Von Neumann, Szilard, Wigner, and Teller alone were all born in the same neighborhood in Budapest. They pretty much followed the career trajectory: Hungary->Germany->America.

    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
    @nebulafox

    And Szilard as well I believe, and he was the guy who got Einstein to write to FDR about the A-bomb.

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @nebulafox


    Von Neumann, Szilard, Wigner, and Teller alone were all born in the same neighborhood in Budapest. They pretty much followed the career trajectory: Hungary->Germany->America.
     
    Yes, but no one compares to Von Neumann. To recognize Godel's work, from first sight, demonstrates his genius. And that is without all the other demonstrations of his genius.

    Von Neumann wasn't just a first-rate mind. Von Neumann was the exemplar for first-rate minds.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  128. @Jack D
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am guessing that they don't really exist or they would be poster girls like Maryam Mirzakhani. It's interesting BTW that Mirzakhani was from a horrible Muslim culture where they keep women under wraps and not from our wonderful "You Go Grrrl" culture.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Big Bill, @academic gossip

    I noticed that a pretty overwhelming majority of female physics and EECS undergrads in college came from cultures not exactly known for treating women great-India, China, Iran, Russia. (Israel was a reoccuring odd exception.) Not all of them, but it was more disproportionate than the men.

    My own personal theory is that in cultures where women genuinely can’t afford to mess around with whatever chances they get for a better life, they’ll push aside whatever their own inclinations are and study what they need to. I even lived near a female Indian EE student who was studying that subject precisely because it got her out of an arranged marriage.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @nebulafox

    I also noticed that the women who really enjoyed the majors tended to display rather masculine characteristics-they were logical, straightfoward, analytical, direct, had a desire to "conquer" knowledge, etc. I tended to be attracted to such mental qualities, and I wasn't alone. Needless to say, they never lacked for dates among their co-majors.

    If societal sexism was the big arbitrator in why genders pick different majors, one would think that law and medical schools, at the pinnacle of social prestige, would be overwhelmingly male, too. Yet they aren’t. If anything, women dominate them now. Both occupations are still more socially prestigious than being a programming geek or a physics postdoc to most people. I haven't looked at MBA schools, but I'd be shocked it hasn't become increasingly female, too.

    I also noticed that in things like biological or chemical engineering-not exactly subjects to sneer at-the gender ratio tends to be more equal, and include far more native American women. Same with biology and chemistry research. So, it is a lot more complex than a quantitative major/non-quantitative major paradigm. People are complicated.

    , @PiltdownMan
    @nebulafox

    Those are also cultures where a college level education in the humanities is not fetishized, as it increasingly is in American culture, nor is a humanities education a traditional ticket into the corridors of power, as it is in the Anglo-American and French Oxford/Harvard/Sorbonne educational routes to the power elite.

    These are cultures where a STEM education is seen as the sole route into a serious world of work, and as a consequence, becoming part of the ruling elite.

    Accordingly, once women make the choice to enter the world of professional work, they try to get into STEM subjects in college.

    I speculate, of course.

    As a footnote, Western feminists did make some noise recently about this news photograph from India's space program, which depicts many women in a mission control room. So there may be something to your observation.

    https://i2.wp.com/thewire.in/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/mars8.jpg

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-38253471

    , @Escher
    @nebulafox

    China and Russia don't exactly fall into the same category as India and Iran when it comes to women's rights. At least some of that is a legacy of communism (IMO) that destroyed older social structures.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  129. @theMann
    Funniest article ever! It will take me a long time to stop laughing today.

    The only necessary retirement for the entire tech sector is that you like to figure things out. Seriously, how many 10 year old girls ever take a watch apart and try to reassemble it? How many 14 year old girls start gearheading in a major way? How many 18 year old women are running off to college going "oh boy, oh boy STEM! What can discover!". And how far do you have to stick your head up your a$$ not to discover that men like to fix, invent, discover, and just simply play with, all technology? And women, not so much?

    Oh, and btw, techies are not anti-social. THEY ARE ANTI-STUPID!!!!

    Replies: @Jim Christian

    Seriously, how many 10 year old girls ever take a watch apart and try to reassemble it? How many 14 year old girls start gearheading in a major way? How many 18 year old women are running off to college going “oh boy, oh boy STEM! What can discover!”. And how far do you have to stick your head up your a$$ not to discover that men like to fix, invent, discover, and just simply play with, all technology? And women, not so much?

    Come on, man, brilliant women program the robot to go faster. Men are stooges, just to tools that enable the women to fly HIGH! It’s the women. It’s all about the women.

    • Replies: @bartok
    @Jim Christian


    How many 18 year old women are running off to college going “oh boy, oh boy STEM! What can discover!”.
     
    Quite a few follow their parents' advice and the feminist propaganda and major in STEM. More than you would think graduate in STEM (because women are good at being dutiful students, and because final exams have less impact on your grade than they used to, with homework and class participation having more impact).

    But the real attrition comes later. Very very few are happy in STEM careers (except for bio/medical with its human interest).
  130. @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    I noticed that a pretty overwhelming majority of female physics and EECS undergrads in college came from cultures not exactly known for treating women great-India, China, Iran, Russia. (Israel was a reoccuring odd exception.) Not all of them, but it was more disproportionate than the men.

    My own personal theory is that in cultures where women genuinely can't afford to mess around with whatever chances they get for a better life, they'll push aside whatever their own inclinations are and study what they need to. I even lived near a female Indian EE student who was studying that subject precisely because it got her out of an arranged marriage.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @PiltdownMan, @Escher

    I also noticed that the women who really enjoyed the majors tended to display rather masculine characteristics-they were logical, straightfoward, analytical, direct, had a desire to “conquer” knowledge, etc. I tended to be attracted to such mental qualities, and I wasn’t alone. Needless to say, they never lacked for dates among their co-majors.

    If societal sexism was the big arbitrator in why genders pick different majors, one would think that law and medical schools, at the pinnacle of social prestige, would be overwhelmingly male, too. Yet they aren’t. If anything, women dominate them now. Both occupations are still more socially prestigious than being a programming geek or a physics postdoc to most people. I haven’t looked at MBA schools, but I’d be shocked it hasn’t become increasingly female, too.

    I also noticed that in things like biological or chemical engineering-not exactly subjects to sneer at-the gender ratio tends to be more equal, and include far more native American women. Same with biology and chemistry research. So, it is a lot more complex than a quantitative major/non-quantitative major paradigm. People are complicated.

  131. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    That was so much bullshit that I was very close to writing a blasphemous phrase on here. (You probably know which one, if you feel the same way, as it comes out naturally.)

    That's this "journalist"''s idea of data to use on the demographics of computer programmers in the 1960's? Cosmo magazine articles and one modern-day movie, what's it "Hidden Agenda"? How stupid does she take us all for? Some people, believe it or not, were around then, and some others can read statistical charts.

    The tragedy, as I argue in my book, Brotopia, is it didn’t have to be this way.
     
    Nope, that's not the tragedy. The tragedy is that 50 years of feminism have put our society into a state where someone who states the obvious is considered a reactionary freak.

    That'd be yours truly - it's a tragedy that women lead lives that their bodies and souls were not made for and make men's lives miserable in the workplace and at home to do it. Women were made to have babies and raise them, and they are happiest when doing so. Men are happier when the women in society are not competing for money, as the men will need it to raise a family or be desirable for starting one. They are happier when their own women are at home taking care of children and all the other stuff that makes it a good home.

    Don't believe women were made for having babies? Ask your p__is - it begs to differ.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    That’s this “journalist””s idea of data to use on the demographics of computer programmers in the 1960′s? Cosmo magazine articles and one modern-day movie, what’s it “Hidden Agenda”? How stupid does she take us all for?

    In the Current Year, Hollywood Movies and Articles from Cosmopolitan provide all the evidence we need, and then some. If you weren’t so racist and sexist, you’d see that. Rather than making incendiary and outrageous assertions and appeals to reason and fact, which themselves are notoriously racist and sexist.

    The measure of validity for any given set of evidence is not found within its actual source material but among its implications and support for our favored narratives. Hope this clears things up for you, white man.

  132. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Neoconned
    @Matthew Kelly

    This. Like I was telling my Mexican co-worker last yr about white people in California. They're not mean hard drinking rednecks like me. They're pajama boys & that's being nice.

    Anyway, YouTube is on a ban move right now. They've been deleting MGTOW videos left and right. Angry MGTOW had his channel shuttered and all he advocated was celibacy and Japan style nerd otaku antisocial lifestyle living.

    This is all about money. The brogrammers are largely gay or worse rollover white knight zeta males.

    They're too busy working or gaming to take these bimbos out on dates and shower them w attention and free shit.

    The bad boys of California aren't that bad besides a few four ft tall Salvadoran gangbangers. Most of the blacks left in California are either gay or like in LA....of the toothless crazy panhandler derelict variety....

    The Asian gangsters are too busy w their own women. And there just aren't enough white thugs and working class whites left to satisfy the tingles.

    Most of the techies are asexual or gay

    Replies: @anonymous

    Finally some demographic reality and truth telling! Male programmers are disproportionately GAY, and, yes, that includes all the Caucasians and Asians (both east & south). This characterization that Silicon Valley is a straight white frat boy utopia is laughable and completely unreal. This bitch can only sell books and articles to a willing believer crowd who reside mostly on the East Coast.

    CHANG EMILY = ER BI

  133. @Anonymous
    This is only one data point, but I've worked with both male and female programmers (many more men). Some of the male programmers were almost from another planet when I tried to talk with them. The female programmers were mostly normal.

    And a friend of mine has a son with Aspberger's Syndrome so has pretty low social skills. However he is very creative and now does CGI development in LA. My friend tells me that most of his son's CGI friends (all guys) appear to be socially out in left field.

    I think it's the law of attraction for guys with that temperament and computer work.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    And it’ll get ever stronger in the future because increasingly, working-class and entry level jobs are all service oriented. Aka, why unemployment/underemployment for autistic/ASD males is ridiculously through the roof.

    I wonder if the explosion in diagnoses has something to do in part with the shifts of the modern economy for the most part strongly disfavoring people who don’t naturally interpret social interactions right and struggle to make connections.

  134. @Daniel Chieh
    @YetAnotherAnon

    In a longish IT career I’ve seen very few female coding nerds, the sort who are totally uninterested in the business they’re employed in but only in the code and the interface.
     

    I have heard of them, but I have never known one despite working in technology for a good part of my life. I have seen women who are passably good at webcode and quite excellent at user interface and design, but I've never seen a woman who was seriously interested in algorithms, high level abstractions or genuinely being a "hacker." Most of what I've seen from women who claim that is essentially cargo culting - which can be super annoying.

    Replies: @Jack D, @academic gossip, @Brutusale

    Some of those women go into academic computer science, in line with the Damore thesis that differences in interests are the main cause of female underrepresentation.

  135. @George
    Big computers, big hair: the women of Bell Labs in the 1960s – in pictures
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/gallery/2016/feb/13/future-women-the-bell-lab-computer-operators-of-the-1960s-in-pictures-women-in-computing

    What happened to the champion of Women tech entrepreneurs and TED talker Elizabeth Holmes?

    Well actually she might have been on to something more than a brain fart. Is it me or is this headline really sexist?

    Theranos Somehow Manages to Snag $100 Million Lifeline
    https://gizmodo.com/theranos-somehow-manages-to-snag-100-million-lifeline-1821563374

    Should read Girl 'scientist' Somehow Manages to Snag $100 Million Lifeline (article should detail what she was wearing at investor presentations)

    Whatever her merits Theranos was never a public company, I still am not clear why her persecution was the responsibility of the US government. As near as I can tell someone who expected to inherit the estate of the still living Fmr Sec of State George Schultz did not want granddad investing in girl power projects so he used personal connections to bring the law down on the little lady.

    Replies: @Jingo Starr, @Peterike

    “Big computers, big hair: the women of Bell Labs in the 1960s – in pictures”

    A lot of women in New Jersey still look like that.

  136. @Sleep


    At a time when a degree in computer science guarantees a six-figure job offer to any young person with a modest intellect and a willingness to live in the Bay Area,

     

    That is a slap in the face to anyone who isnt at the top of the ladder looking down. Victim blaming as usual.

    I suspect female employment in CS was higher in the past because it hadn't been clearly distinguished from traditionally female jobs like typists, stenographers, and secretaries. Nowadays it has more in common with math than with writing, and math has always been a masculine field. No need to propose an invisible force that repels women and attracts men.

    Replies: @a boy and his dog, @Alden

    When computers first arrived in workplaces in the mid 1960’s, management turned the system over to the steno pool, all women typists.

    But things changed when typing changed to data management.

  137. @Pericles
    I'd instead prefer to see FemiLARPing: Breaking Up the Boys’ Club of Silicon Valley. The worthless stale pale males built it up, now we strong independent women and POCs get to feast.

    Replies: @Alden

    Exactly, like a pack of Hyenas attacking the hunters who brought down an elephant.

  138. @Zoodles
    Women *never* ruled the computer world. They were mostly employed as glorified data entry clerks.

    Replies: @Alden

    I remember those days, from clerk typist to data entry.

  139. @stillCARealist
    @Twinkie

    No, they resent God for not being born men. The resentment will only increase as some women insist on pursuing the man stuff they're not made for.

    Whatever happened to embracing the real me? Being myself? Wasn't that the mantra of popular individualism? Then the real me can be a woman and enjoy all the women stuff I want. I do what I like and what I'm good at. I avoid the nasty and scary things that I dislike.

    These feminists are trying to force women into roles and jobs they'll hate and fail at. Then there's the spiritual struggles of self-doubt and insecurity. Dumb, dumb. Go for what you love doing, ladies. If that means nursing, teaching, and service jobs, then so be it. Likely it means lots of years being a wife and mother. So be it.

    I don't know why I'm posting this here as so many of you are men, and men that despise women anyway.

    Replies: @Alden, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Twinkie, @Whoever

    Try, unz seems to be more older men than any other pro White site on the web.

  140. @Anonymous
    @Paleo Liberal

    Women were prominent in early computing because they were recruited from the typing pool - operating a computer was seen as little different to operating a typewriter.

    Replies: @Alden, @Chrisnonymous, @Danand

    I remember those days . Another thing is that the secretaries were the ones who operated and fixed the first mimeograph then the Xerox copiers, those big clunky adding machines and all other office machines.

  141. @Wilbur Hassenfus
    At IBM in the 60s, girls did coding jobs that involved monkey coding to a very highly detailed and unambiguous spec that somebody else wrote to very highly detailed and unambiguous requirements that somebody else wrote up. Ditto NASA.

    I’ve spent 22 years in the field prying ambiguous requirements out of end users (or simply figuring it out myself, in cases where no end users yet exist and no potential end users were available) and writing my own rough specs, when the schedule allowed, them changing everything in mid stream when better information became available.

    Very few girls enjoy being thrown into a locked room and told to come back six months or a year later with a feature or product ready for beta testing. They overwhelmingly prefer performing clearly defined tasks in a prescribed manner. They do OK at giant, highly bureaucratic IT shops where initiative and imagination aren’t welcome. “Use your own best judgement” makes them all fluttery and scared, with a tiny number of exceptions. The male and female curves for “f*** off and let me write it” look like the curves for upper body strength.

    The girls are fine if you can afford an elaborate infrastructure to do all their thinking for them.

    But that’s not where the action is in software.

    What happened to the industry with all those girls quietly and obediently coloring inside the lines all day in the 60s?

    Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson and Bill Joy happened to it. Nasty patriarchal hierarchical bad boys, going off on their own and decentralizing everything without even asking permission from upper management at a giant corporation. So totally like oppressive.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Agree.

  142. @inertial
    @Jack D

    From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-aeronautics-aviation-and-astronautics


    Little is known of the personalities involved in the technical management of the Soviet space program. While it is quite likely that some of them are of Jewish origin, this cannot actually be proved.
     
    (facepalm)

    Here is a link that lists prominent Jewish scientists and engineers that contributed to both Soviet and American space programs, with 90% of names on the Soviet side. It's in Russian but Google Translate works fine.

    Here is the beginning (translated by Google):

    Some of the founders of Soviet cosmonautics were Ari Abramovich Shternfeld , Maurice Gavriilovich Leiteisen , Yuri Vasilyevich Kondratyuk and Alexander Borisovich Sherchevsky .

    Among the creators of the First Artificial Earth Satellite - Valentin Semenovich Etkin , Pavel Elyasberg , Jan Lvovich Ziman , Yakov Borisovich Zel'dovich , Yakov Samuelovich Shklovsky , Konstantin Iosifovich Gringauz , Yury Ilich Galperin , Semyon Samoylovich Moiseev , Vasily Ivanovich Moroz .

    Semyon Arievich Kosberg worked on the development of liquid rocket engines, and took part in the creation of projects "Luna-1", "Luna-2" and "Luna-3"; Kosberg created engines for spaceships such as Vostok, Voskhod and Soyuz (also for the first cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin's flight), and for the launch of interplanetary stations Venus and Mars.

    Yakov Isaevich Tregub , Naum Semyonovich Chernyakov , Yuriy Viktorovich Chudetsky , Mark Zinovievich Olevsky , Zinovy ​​Moiseevich Persits , Lev Abramovich Berlin , Semyon Aizikovich Lavochkin and others worked on the development of rocket technology.

    Ilya Matveyevich Gurovich built Baikonur.
     
    And so on and on.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    As I said before, there were a lot of Jews involved with aeronautics and space on the Soviet side and very few in the US (vs say math or physics where there were tons of prominent Jews on both sides of the Iron Curtain). And this despite the discrimination that Jews experienced in the USSR. So what is the explanation?

    • Replies: @newrouter
    @Jack D

    Only open field in USSR ? In America many open fields?

    , @J.Ross
    @Jack D

    I wonder if the discrimination is the explanation: a Jew in the US has many different avenues open to him, many of which are not conducive to intense mathematical study, whereas in the Soyuz you have to justify your existence.

    , @inertial
    @Jack D

    In the Russian Empire, most Jews made their living from some sort of a private business and the educated one went into professions. The Jews who immigrated to America just continued doing what they were doing. Not so those who remained behind.

    After the revolution, owning a business was gradually outlawed. Choosing a professional career meant overcoming huge obstacles. In the early USSR Jews were often discriminated against when it came to education or professional advance. At that point it was not because they were Jews but because so few of them had been workers or peasants.

    At the same time, the Bolsheviks initiated a major program for retaining the old pre-revolutionary scientific and technical talent and training the new one. Bonus points if those new engineers came from the Holy Proletariat but they took anyone who could hack it.

    (As an illustration, Boris Chertok, the number two man in the Soviet space program, apllied to college after he graduated from high school in 1930. He passed the entrance exams but was refused admittance because his parents were professionals (an accountant and a medic.) They advised him to go find a job as a laborer at a manufacturing plant, then come back after a few years and he'd be admitted because now he'd be a proletarian. Chertok found a job as an electrician at an airplane factory, and the rest is history.)

    This kind of work was seen as prestigious and honorable and many smart and ambitious Jewish youngsters flocked into the field. After a generation, no one thought any longer that there was anything unusual about such a choice. If your parent is an engineer there is a good chance you'd become one too.

    Having said that, I also have to say the the Jews who contributed to the Soviet space program belonged to a certain generation. After the Six-Day War and the start of Jewish immigration the Soviet government severely limited the number of Jews who were allowed to work in this area. Not so much out of antisemitism but because Jews were presumed to be potential emigrants. The Jewish old-timers continued to work but but they were not replaced by younger Jewish scientists or engineers.

  143. I’ll just leave this here

    Justin Trudeau interrupts woman to tell her to use ‘peoplekind’ instead of ‘mankind’ because ‘it’s more inclusive’

    The Canadian Prime Minister made the comment while hosting a Q&A at MacEwan University in Edmonton…

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5357037/Trudeau-mocked-telling-woman-say-peoplekind.html

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Anonymous


    Justin Trudeau interrupts woman to tell her to use ‘peoplekind’ instead of ‘mankind’ because ‘it’s more inclusive’
     
    Actually "people are vicious' would be more inclusive.
  144. In 1962, as depicted in the 2016 film Hidden Figures, three black women working as NASA mathematicians helped calculate the flight paths that put John Glenn into orbit.

    “Mom made dinner, and I helped!”

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @grapesoda

    The "Shake and Bake" theory of history!

    Replies: @Ivy

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @grapesoda

    Thanks for the shake n bake commercial reference. It's been a long time!

  145. @J.Ross
    @utu

    This is part of the history-erasing jealous ownership of suffering, now represented by Israel attempting to blame Poland for German actions. It's an inevitable result of psychopathically misunderstanding suffering only as a negotiatory fulcrum, like the guy in Texas Chainsaw Massacre who cuts himself and then attempts to extort money. Here the perverse chauvinism of the Jewish producers and the black audiences overlaps, because acknowledging Polish suffering would mean complicating their straw man of the evil white oppressor, where the whole point of this movie is to unify probable Democrats around hatred of a simple enemy. So he has to become Jewish in order to be sympathetic and to be able to talk about suffering, because in this fantasy world, whites do not suffer. Of course, in real life, blacks aren't really very fond of Jews, but nobody in Hollywood acknowledges that, any more than they acknowledge the hilariously elaborate ideas mestizos have about Jewish conspiracy. In Hollywood, Robert Loggia deliberately loses the card game he plays with his mestizo construction crew and then they all sing kumbaya.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Israel attempting to blame Poland for German actions.

    This is highly tendentious. You could also say that Poland is attempting to deny its own complicity with German actions.

    Certainly the Germans deserve (and have accepted) the vast share of responsibility but this does not totally exonerate the Poles. Maybe the Germans are 90% responsible and the Poles are 10% responsible but 10% is not nothing and it is false for the Poles to say that they had NOTHING, nothing at all to do with extermination of the Jews and anyone who says different should go to jail. Polish conduct during the war ranged the full gamut from horrific to indifferent to heroic but the Poles have to accept the truth that there were some who were glad to get rid of the Jews and did all they could to help the Germans (sometimes even took action on their own). This has been amply documented in a thousand different ways. Not to mention things like the Kielce pogrom that happened AFTER the Germans were gone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

    The double irony is that the same people who are saying that Poland has NO responsibility for the Holocaust are also the first ones to tell you that they don’t really like Jews – you can’t have it both ways.

    That being said, 42 Jews died in the Kielce pogrom while the Germans killed 3 million Polish Jews, so the Germans operated on an organized and industrial scale and Polish anti-Semitism was more of a peasants with pitchforks type of thing.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    You may be the worst broken record I've ever encountered on the internet, and that's saying something.

    , @newrouter
    @Jack D

    "Polish conduct during the war ranged the full gamut from horrific to indifferent to heroic but the Poles have to accept the truth that there were some who were glad to get rid of the Jews and did all they could to help the Germans (sometimes even took action on their own). This has been amply documented in a thousand different ways. Not to mention things like the Kielce pogrom that happened AFTER the Germans were gone. "

    Holocaust is boring! Now can we move on to Pol Pot or the Tutis/Hutu thing.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @dfordoom
    @Jack D


    Certainly the Germans deserve (and have accepted) the vast share of responsibility but this does not totally exonerate the Poles.
     
    But the Germans and/or the Poles responsible for these things are pretty much all dead now. It was a long long time ago. You're talking about how big a share of blame to assign to various groups of dead people.

    I'm sure you're not unreasonable enough to want to assign blame to living people who weren't even born when these things happened.

    So I'm not sure I see the point of it all.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @MarkinLA
    @Jack D

    Maybe the Germans are 90% responsible and the Poles are 10% responsible but 10% is not nothing and it is false for the Poles to say that they had NOTHING

    Just wondering, but what percentage of the blame should go to Jews themselves. I mean if it was a death camp as claimed, why bother working at all, why not just continually riot? What's the difference, getting shot, getting gassed, at least you might take some German with you.

    Replies: @Anon

  146. @nebulafox
    @Ben Kurtz

    Von Neumann, Szilard, Wigner, and Teller alone were all born in the same neighborhood in Budapest. They pretty much followed the career trajectory: Hungary->Germany->America.

    Replies: @Unladen Swallow, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    And Szilard as well I believe, and he was the guy who got Einstein to write to FDR about the A-bomb.

  147. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Paul Murphy
    @Jack D

    My sense is that you are correct in that the age of Wild West innovation and brutal meritocracy in Silicon Valley are permanently over.

    As to where that energy will go, I think an immense amount of it is being wasted in video gaming and opiate addiction. A somewhat more fruitful path would be the immense number of "4 hour work week" or digital nomad businesses springing up. But of course that path is not for everyone.

    Sometimes I look at the crazed ugliness of our living environments, remember the enormous number of frustrated men out there, and think that we need a large number of men to move to despised and dirt-cheap "flyover country," where they will begin a revival of American woodworking, leatherwork, and other traditional craftsmanship. Imagine once again having everyday goods of real quality instead of disposable Chinese trash delivered by Amazon.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @PiltdownMan

    Sometimes I look at the crazed ugliness of our living environments, remember the enormous number of frustrated men out there, and think that we need a large number of men to move to despised and dirt-cheap “flyover country,” where they will begin a revival of American woodworking, leatherwork, and other traditional craftsmanship. Imagine once again having everyday goods of real quality instead of disposable Chinese trash delivered by Amazon.

    Agreed; however the other part of that equation is design, and I can tell you that a vanishingly small percentage of clients are willing to opt for anything but the cheapest ‘solution’ available. The carriage trade chases that tiny % and materials and craftsmanship get marked up accordingly.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Anonymous

    That kind of handicraft is expensive and affordable only to a few. We live in the age of mass production and mass consumption. Now if someone could figure out how to produce quality furniture at Ikea prices, THAT would be something, but it's pretty much impossible. Good stuff is not cheap and cheap stuff is not good.

  148. @Jack D
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am guessing that they don't really exist or they would be poster girls like Maryam Mirzakhani. It's interesting BTW that Mirzakhani was from a horrible Muslim culture where they keep women under wraps and not from our wonderful "You Go Grrrl" culture.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Big Bill, @academic gossip

    There’s a funny and thoughtful subtitled Norwegian documentary on the “gender equality paradox” that addresses your point (among others):

  149. @Jack D
    @J.Ross


    Israel attempting to blame Poland for German actions.
     
    This is highly tendentious. You could also say that Poland is attempting to deny its own complicity with German actions.

    Certainly the Germans deserve (and have accepted) the vast share of responsibility but this does not totally exonerate the Poles. Maybe the Germans are 90% responsible and the Poles are 10% responsible but 10% is not nothing and it is false for the Poles to say that they had NOTHING, nothing at all to do with extermination of the Jews and anyone who says different should go to jail. Polish conduct during the war ranged the full gamut from horrific to indifferent to heroic but the Poles have to accept the truth that there were some who were glad to get rid of the Jews and did all they could to help the Germans (sometimes even took action on their own). This has been amply documented in a thousand different ways. Not to mention things like the Kielce pogrom that happened AFTER the Germans were gone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

    The double irony is that the same people who are saying that Poland has NO responsibility for the Holocaust are also the first ones to tell you that they don't really like Jews - you can't have it both ways.

    That being said, 42 Jews died in the Kielce pogrom while the Germans killed 3 million Polish Jews, so the Germans operated on an organized and industrial scale and Polish anti-Semitism was more of a peasants with pitchforks type of thing.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @newrouter, @dfordoom, @MarkinLA

    You may be the worst broken record I’ve ever encountered on the internet, and that’s saying something.

  150. @Jack D
    @inertial

    As I said before, there were a lot of Jews involved with aeronautics and space on the Soviet side and very few in the US (vs say math or physics where there were tons of prominent Jews on both sides of the Iron Curtain). And this despite the discrimination that Jews experienced in the USSR. So what is the explanation?

    Replies: @newrouter, @J.Ross, @inertial

    Only open field in USSR ? In America many open fields?

  151. By Ms. Chang’s own figures 17.5 percent of BSs in CS are women (presumably a combination of women and transwomen). The researchers mentioned from the 1960s surveyed a sample that was 13.5 percent women, and there’s no indication that it wasn’t representative of the industry as a whole (algthough Ms. Chang disses the study because it was done by men).

    So we have a general range there. In the Cosmo-says-be-a-programmer era, 13.5 percent, and in the any-guy-can-be-a-girl era, 17.5 percent. There’s probably a bit of apples and oranges here, but let’s go with it.

    I don’t see a big downturn in the number of women. Presuming that no more than 4.0 of the 17.5 percent are trans, the percentage of women is the same or greater.

    Why not 50 percent? Besides the Damore memo stuff about different distributions of preferences in job types, you may have simple IQ coming into play. Although the current scholarly concensus/truce is that men and women have exactly the same IQ, that may be crumbling. First of all, everyone admits that there is a different variance, roughly an SD of 14 for women and an SD of 16 for men. And then, aw the Flynn effect exposed the dirty truth of norming by era, Richard Lynn has discovered that norming between sexes also went on. Lynn puts women’s mean IQ at 98 versus 102 for men.

    So, for example, if you look at the relative proportions of the gifted (IQ >= 130) using these numbers, you get 22 percent women, 78 percent men. This is pre-job preference.

    Many programming jobs don’t require you to be gifted, but I do think that 110 (the point at which you ain’t ever gonna fully grok algebra I) is really a minimum, even for simple Javascript front-end stuff. On the other hand, 130 won’t get you far in the upper reaches of Google programmerdom, nor will you ever be Wall Street quant material.

  152. @Jack D
    @J.Ross


    Israel attempting to blame Poland for German actions.
     
    This is highly tendentious. You could also say that Poland is attempting to deny its own complicity with German actions.

    Certainly the Germans deserve (and have accepted) the vast share of responsibility but this does not totally exonerate the Poles. Maybe the Germans are 90% responsible and the Poles are 10% responsible but 10% is not nothing and it is false for the Poles to say that they had NOTHING, nothing at all to do with extermination of the Jews and anyone who says different should go to jail. Polish conduct during the war ranged the full gamut from horrific to indifferent to heroic but the Poles have to accept the truth that there were some who were glad to get rid of the Jews and did all they could to help the Germans (sometimes even took action on their own). This has been amply documented in a thousand different ways. Not to mention things like the Kielce pogrom that happened AFTER the Germans were gone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

    The double irony is that the same people who are saying that Poland has NO responsibility for the Holocaust are also the first ones to tell you that they don't really like Jews - you can't have it both ways.

    That being said, 42 Jews died in the Kielce pogrom while the Germans killed 3 million Polish Jews, so the Germans operated on an organized and industrial scale and Polish anti-Semitism was more of a peasants with pitchforks type of thing.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @newrouter, @dfordoom, @MarkinLA

    “Polish conduct during the war ranged the full gamut from horrific to indifferent to heroic but the Poles have to accept the truth that there were some who were glad to get rid of the Jews and did all they could to help the Germans (sometimes even took action on their own). This has been amply documented in a thousand different ways. Not to mention things like the Kielce pogrom that happened AFTER the Germans were gone. ”

    Holocaust is boring! Now can we move on to Pol Pot or the Tutis/Hutu thing.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @newrouter

    "Now can we move on to Pol Pot or the Tutis/Hutu thing.'

    Or the Holodomor

  153. I’m sure there are lots of well-informed comments on this topic but I’ll add my two cents, from a lifetime of being in the coding biz.

    Women are almost certainly adequate at the sort of rote data entry that early “programming” consisted of. There was also certainly the fact that as typist-slash-data-entry employees, it was very natural for them to take on the role of early “programming”.

    But, modern programming is an entirely different beast. Woman almost certainly have an inherently (0n average!) lower capacity for considering, simultaneously, the many different parts. This is inherent in modern software design. For example, even when designing a self contained process, a good programmer has to be able to visualize dozens of intricately interacting components. When you add the layer of many different subsystems interacting with each other (ie. you have one process wiring to a database, another process allowing updates, and another allowing reporting on said), there are many more things you are juggling.

    This is also true of the mindset required for debugging. Women just don’t seem to have the curiosity or drive to dig into a lot of details. This is true at both a low level (is it possible this small Int is overflowing, or this list is alway empty) or the high level (what other process/subsystem might be interfering/interacting in some way)

    Finally, more competition. Good programmers live way out at the tail of the bell curve. Wrong kind of tail (pun intended)

  154. @Anonymous
    @Paleo Liberal

    Women were prominent in early computing because they were recruited from the typing pool - operating a computer was seen as little different to operating a typewriter.

    Replies: @Alden, @Chrisnonymous, @Danand

    That makes sense.

    I was going to suggest that the demographics of programming has more to do with the lifestyle and ends.

    My limited knowledge of early programming indicates it was more tactile and more simply focused on performing practical tasks.

    Early/primitive religions (such as shamanism) also have more female involvement. Females are more drawn to magic–i.e., ways to influence the world that have clear and immediate benefits to people. As religion became more abstract, more rational, and more organized, women dropped out and were replaced by male priests/theologians. Recently, as theology/dogma has become less important than therapeutic ends of ministry, women are returning to religious leadership.

    The other thing that replaced shamanism and magic was medicine. Early doctors were systematizers who developed theoretical explanations for their treatments. In recent decades, as the field of medicine has become less focused on science and reflection and more on following algorithms and health promotion, women have become more attracted to it.

    My guess is that as programming became more complex and abstract–more “in the head” and removed from immediate real-world results–it became less interesting and less accessible to women.

  155. Anonymous [AKA "Todd Rick"] says:

    Even then, the peculiarity of male programmers was well-known and celebrated; today, the term “neckbeard” is used almost affectionately. There is, of course, no equivalent term of endearment for women.

    Has the term “neckbeard” ever been used in anything but a derogatory way?

  156. @Farenheit
    "...also noting a high “incidence of beards, sandals, and other symptoms of rugged individualism or nonconformity.” "......paging John Derbyshire, paging John Derbyshire.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    ……paging John Derbyshire, paging John Derbyshire.

    The Derbyshire demon cannot be summoned by mere mortals repeating his name. His presence requires much more. You might try offering gcochran as a human sacrifice. (Though I personally oppose human sacrifice.) But maybe a try Darwin panegyric to do it. Do be sure to include the minor deities in the Derbyshire cosmos. A suitable supplication might do it!

  157. @MG
    @Jack D

    Yes, Feynman’s staff was composed of women. See -

    https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/human-computers-los-alamos

    Replies: @Jack D

    Not according to Feynman.

    Read this article:

    http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/34/3/FeynmanLosAlamos.htm

    (Very amusing, well worth the read even if Feynman tends to self-aggrandize). Search for Special Engineer Detachment around 3/4 of the way down – that’s the anecdote that I mentioned earlier.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @Jack D


    Very amusing, well worth the read even if Feynman tends to self-aggrandize.
     
    Caltech's worked hard at putting a lot of material about it's history online. Feynman had a reputation as a horndog/babe-magnet in his time, a reputation he encouraged. A relative who was in the Cornell physics department in the 1950s used to say that Feynman was chucked out despite being the brightest star there (aside from Hans Bethe) basically because he was seducing too many faculty wives and causing a ruckus.

    I see now that Wikipedia confirms that story.

    He never settled into a particular house or apartment, living in guest houses or student residences, or with married friends "until these arrangements became sexually volatile." [102] He liked to date undergraduates, hire prostitutes, and sleep with the wives of friends.
     
  158. @allahu akbar
    I really don't care.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @ScarletNumber

    I really don’t care.

    I really don’t care that you don’t care.

  159. @Jack D
    @inertial

    As I said before, there were a lot of Jews involved with aeronautics and space on the Soviet side and very few in the US (vs say math or physics where there were tons of prominent Jews on both sides of the Iron Curtain). And this despite the discrimination that Jews experienced in the USSR. So what is the explanation?

    Replies: @newrouter, @J.Ross, @inertial

    I wonder if the discrimination is the explanation: a Jew in the US has many different avenues open to him, many of which are not conducive to intense mathematical study, whereas in the Soyuz you have to justify your existence.

  160. @Jack D
    @SimpleSong


    That was the role of the women in Hidden Figures. They were human computers. That is not a compliment. They were replaced by pocket calculators, which were faster and more accurate.
     
    Most of what you say is spot on but this part is not quite right. First of all, the women in Hidden Figures already had (mechanical desk) calculators, AKA adding machines. These could even do multiplication by repeated addition.

    2nd what they did could not be replaced by the calculators of their time and instead they were replaced by early computers.

    However, what they did COULD be replaced by a modern programmable calculator, say a TI-83 (which has capabilities similar to early mainframe computers. An iPhone has processing power similar to 1980s supercomputers). The TI can do what these "Hidden" geniuses did, faster and better and it's not even a very good device.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Jack, sometimes you are a tedious fellow. The “not quite right” just reminds me about everything you post. Except your posts that I like. So stop invoking the TI-83, which students abandon with surprising frequency. And they have done so since at least 2008.

    If you are not a doofus, get a TI-89.

  161. @Anonymous
    @Paul Murphy


    Sometimes I look at the crazed ugliness of our living environments, remember the enormous number of frustrated men out there, and think that we need a large number of men to move to despised and dirt-cheap “flyover country,” where they will begin a revival of American woodworking, leatherwork, and other traditional craftsmanship. Imagine once again having everyday goods of real quality instead of disposable Chinese trash delivered by Amazon.
     
    Agreed; however the other part of that equation is design, and I can tell you that a vanishingly small percentage of clients are willing to opt for anything but the cheapest 'solution' available. The carriage trade chases that tiny % and materials and craftsmanship get marked up accordingly.

    Replies: @Jack D

    That kind of handicraft is expensive and affordable only to a few. We live in the age of mass production and mass consumption. Now if someone could figure out how to produce quality furniture at Ikea prices, THAT would be something, but it’s pretty much impossible. Good stuff is not cheap and cheap stuff is not good.

  162. @grapesoda

    In 1962, as depicted in the 2016 film Hidden Figures, three black women working as NASA mathematicians helped calculate the flight paths that put John Glenn into orbit.
     
    "Mom made dinner, and I helped!"

    Replies: @Jack D, @Achmed E. Newman

    The “Shake and Bake” theory of history!

    • Replies: @Ivy
    @Jack D

    In a sports context, shake 'n bake can be a type of improvisation. Some such improv plays on a football field might be entertaining, while other busted plays more often just result in losses or turnovers. In either a sports or office context the breakdown of a structured offense or well-managed team that should produce solid results instead under-performs. Prior generations learned the wisdom of the saying "No I in team", but that is probably hate speech on many campuses and could be in many offices (or newsrooms) when spread.

  163. @inertial
    @Jack D

    From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-aeronautics-aviation-and-astronautics


    Little is known of the personalities involved in the technical management of the Soviet space program. While it is quite likely that some of them are of Jewish origin, this cannot actually be proved.
     
    (facepalm)

    Here is a link that lists prominent Jewish scientists and engineers that contributed to both Soviet and American space programs, with 90% of names on the Soviet side. It's in Russian but Google Translate works fine.

    Here is the beginning (translated by Google):

    Some of the founders of Soviet cosmonautics were Ari Abramovich Shternfeld , Maurice Gavriilovich Leiteisen , Yuri Vasilyevich Kondratyuk and Alexander Borisovich Sherchevsky .

    Among the creators of the First Artificial Earth Satellite - Valentin Semenovich Etkin , Pavel Elyasberg , Jan Lvovich Ziman , Yakov Borisovich Zel'dovich , Yakov Samuelovich Shklovsky , Konstantin Iosifovich Gringauz , Yury Ilich Galperin , Semyon Samoylovich Moiseev , Vasily Ivanovich Moroz .

    Semyon Arievich Kosberg worked on the development of liquid rocket engines, and took part in the creation of projects "Luna-1", "Luna-2" and "Luna-3"; Kosberg created engines for spaceships such as Vostok, Voskhod and Soyuz (also for the first cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin's flight), and for the launch of interplanetary stations Venus and Mars.

    Yakov Isaevich Tregub , Naum Semyonovich Chernyakov , Yuriy Viktorovich Chudetsky , Mark Zinovievich Olevsky , Zinovy ​​Moiseevich Persits , Lev Abramovich Berlin , Semyon Aizikovich Lavochkin and others worked on the development of rocket technology.

    Ilya Matveyevich Gurovich built Baikonur.
     
    And so on and on.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    You bastard! I have not laughed at a

    (facepalm)

    since the Babylonians got their comeuppance!

  164. @J.Ross
    @utu

    This is part of the history-erasing jealous ownership of suffering, now represented by Israel attempting to blame Poland for German actions. It's an inevitable result of psychopathically misunderstanding suffering only as a negotiatory fulcrum, like the guy in Texas Chainsaw Massacre who cuts himself and then attempts to extort money. Here the perverse chauvinism of the Jewish producers and the black audiences overlaps, because acknowledging Polish suffering would mean complicating their straw man of the evil white oppressor, where the whole point of this movie is to unify probable Democrats around hatred of a simple enemy. So he has to become Jewish in order to be sympathetic and to be able to talk about suffering, because in this fantasy world, whites do not suffer. Of course, in real life, blacks aren't really very fond of Jews, but nobody in Hollywood acknowledges that, any more than they acknowledge the hilariously elaborate ideas mestizos have about Jewish conspiracy. In Hollywood, Robert Loggia deliberately loses the card game he plays with his mestizo construction crew and then they all sing kumbaya.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Agree. (Mostly)

  165. @stillCARealist
    @Twinkie

    No, they resent God for not being born men. The resentment will only increase as some women insist on pursuing the man stuff they're not made for.

    Whatever happened to embracing the real me? Being myself? Wasn't that the mantra of popular individualism? Then the real me can be a woman and enjoy all the women stuff I want. I do what I like and what I'm good at. I avoid the nasty and scary things that I dislike.

    These feminists are trying to force women into roles and jobs they'll hate and fail at. Then there's the spiritual struggles of self-doubt and insecurity. Dumb, dumb. Go for what you love doing, ladies. If that means nursing, teaching, and service jobs, then so be it. Likely it means lots of years being a wife and mother. So be it.

    I don't know why I'm posting this here as so many of you are men, and men that despise women anyway.

    Replies: @Alden, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Twinkie, @Whoever

    and men that despise women anyway.

    Speak for yourself. Speaking for myself, I LOVE women.

  166. @gunner29
    @Twinkie


    An unattractive woman, you mean.
     
    Last 25 years I came to realize this planet is organized for the benefit of two groups; attractive womyn and guys with money.

    The womyn demand outrageous amounts to spend time with you...first thing they determine is how much cash you got. Not enough? You're toast with her.

    Unattractive womyn, can't demand much money at all.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Twinkie

    Unattractive womyn, can’t demand much money at all.

    What women (sorry womyn) do you spend time with?

    • LOL: Twinkie
  167. @nebulafox
    @Ben Kurtz

    Von Neumann, Szilard, Wigner, and Teller alone were all born in the same neighborhood in Budapest. They pretty much followed the career trajectory: Hungary->Germany->America.

    Replies: @Unladen Swallow, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Von Neumann, Szilard, Wigner, and Teller alone were all born in the same neighborhood in Budapest. They pretty much followed the career trajectory: Hungary->Germany->America.

    Yes, but no one compares to Von Neumann. To recognize Godel’s work, from first sight, demonstrates his genius. And that is without all the other demonstrations of his genius.

    Von Neumann wasn’t just a first-rate mind. Von Neumann was the exemplar for first-rate minds.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Oh, yes. Even the other Martians I listed-called such precisely because these Hungarian Jews all born in the same neighborhood in the same decade were all recognized as so freaking over-the-top brilliant that people joked about aliens coming to Budapest to impregnate their mothers-were in utter awe of him. Teller openly stated that von Neumann effortlessly outdid everybody in everything, and that he could never keep up with him. Wigner said that watching von Neumann's mind was like watching an absolutely perfect, accurate machine-no mistakes. Other physicists and mathematicians mostly commented the same. His own teachers in graduate school were scared of him.

    He pretty much could do *everything* that he put his mind to. (Except drive, apparently.) Not just in the hard sciences, either. Foreign languages, Byzantine history, literature, you name it. If I could choose to dissect any one brain in history and learn how it worked, it would be his. And on top of that, he was also quite the charmer and social butterfly. He was a regular in Weimar Berlin's famous caberet scene, his parties in Princeton became famous... and everybody who interacted with him loved him.

  168. @piefacedprince
    When I studied computer science forty years ago there were at least twice as many women in the classes as there are now, and no one thought anything about it. Although most students chose computer science because they wanted to get a job, there were a few men who were devoted to it.There were no women who were devoted in that way, although some were quite capable, and there were no female systems programmers. My hardware classes, however, were almost entirely male. The notion that computer science was once or originally a female domain is a fantasy. This fantasy is usually promoted by a reference to Grace Hopper and Ada Lovelace. Hopper was to some extent responsible for COBOL, a programming language scorned by computer science enthusiasts when I was young. Lovelace assisted Charles Babbage, who conceived the first stored program computer. Alhough there were many more female computer science students when I was young than there are now, computer science enthusiasts were almost entirely male, and the domain was dominated by men. It is a fact that far more men are attracted to computer science and engineering than women. Most of the women I have known don't know how anything works and don't care. It is not true that geeks have excluded women from computer science.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

    Hopper was to some extent responsible for COBOL, a programming language scorned by computer science enthusiasts when I was young.

    I agree. I distinctly remember COBOL being looked down in the late 1970s in an academic environment, when I learned a couple of coding languages as a college senior to earn a few bucks on the side.

    A couple of years later, in a corporate environment, as a young management science/operations research staff guy in the financial industry, I observed that about a third of the programmers in the IT department were women, doing COBOL coding. I also remember the head of IT saying that an often voiced opinion in his business was that women were well suited to it because COBOL coding to spec was similar to patchwork embroidery.

    But the people in the IT department coming up with creative new decision support systems for senior management (what would today be called data mining) and doing the coding on the fly for the then-new quant aspects of finance were all men.

  169. @Anonymous
    I'll just leave this here

    Justin Trudeau interrupts woman to tell her to use 'peoplekind' instead of 'mankind' because 'it's more inclusive'

    The Canadian Prime Minister made the comment while hosting a Q&A at MacEwan University in Edmonton...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5357037/Trudeau-mocked-telling-woman-say-peoplekind.html

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Justin Trudeau interrupts woman to tell her to use ‘peoplekind’ instead of ‘mankind’ because ‘it’s more inclusive’

    Actually “people are vicious’ would be more inclusive.

  170. @Jack D
    @grapesoda

    The "Shake and Bake" theory of history!

    Replies: @Ivy

    In a sports context, shake ‘n bake can be a type of improvisation. Some such improv plays on a football field might be entertaining, while other busted plays more often just result in losses or turnovers. In either a sports or office context the breakdown of a structured offense or well-managed team that should produce solid results instead under-performs. Prior generations learned the wisdom of the saying “No I in team”, but that is probably hate speech on many campuses and could be in many offices (or newsrooms) when spread.

  171. @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    I noticed that a pretty overwhelming majority of female physics and EECS undergrads in college came from cultures not exactly known for treating women great-India, China, Iran, Russia. (Israel was a reoccuring odd exception.) Not all of them, but it was more disproportionate than the men.

    My own personal theory is that in cultures where women genuinely can't afford to mess around with whatever chances they get for a better life, they'll push aside whatever their own inclinations are and study what they need to. I even lived near a female Indian EE student who was studying that subject precisely because it got her out of an arranged marriage.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @PiltdownMan, @Escher

    Those are also cultures where a college level education in the humanities is not fetishized, as it increasingly is in American culture, nor is a humanities education a traditional ticket into the corridors of power, as it is in the Anglo-American and French Oxford/Harvard/Sorbonne educational routes to the power elite.

    These are cultures where a STEM education is seen as the sole route into a serious world of work, and as a consequence, becoming part of the ruling elite.

    Accordingly, once women make the choice to enter the world of professional work, they try to get into STEM subjects in college.

    I speculate, of course.

    As a footnote, Western feminists did make some noise recently about this news photograph from India’s space program, which depicts many women in a mission control room. So there may be something to your observation.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-38253471

  172. @Paul Murphy
    @Jack D

    My sense is that you are correct in that the age of Wild West innovation and brutal meritocracy in Silicon Valley are permanently over.

    As to where that energy will go, I think an immense amount of it is being wasted in video gaming and opiate addiction. A somewhat more fruitful path would be the immense number of "4 hour work week" or digital nomad businesses springing up. But of course that path is not for everyone.

    Sometimes I look at the crazed ugliness of our living environments, remember the enormous number of frustrated men out there, and think that we need a large number of men to move to despised and dirt-cheap "flyover country," where they will begin a revival of American woodworking, leatherwork, and other traditional craftsmanship. Imagine once again having everyday goods of real quality instead of disposable Chinese trash delivered by Amazon.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @PiltdownMan

    Imagine once again having everyday goods of real quality instead of disposable Chinese trash delivered by Amazon.

    I think there has been a real shift in preferences, not just because people prefer larger quantities of stuff and lower prices, but increasingly, people don’t want to buy things that last forever.

    There is now a strong, built-in, expectation among a whole generation used to non-stop news about technological change that they will be discarding what they have every few years for something new, and thus, automatically “better.” This attitude may be extending to what were previously considered to be consumer long-term durables.

    A friend who is a European immigrant recently inherited very functional furniture (a desk, chairs, an armoire and so on), handed down in his family since the early 1800s. He expects to be using it all his life. A lot of folks I know today would be horrified at a value system that envisages being “stuck” with the same furniture (for life!) and being content with the prospect.

    People want stuff, and they want disposable, rickety stuff, so they can enjoy getting new stuff a few years down the road.

  173. @Jack D
    @MG

    Not according to Feynman.

    Read this article:

    http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/34/3/FeynmanLosAlamos.htm

    (Very amusing, well worth the read even if Feynman tends to self-aggrandize). Search for Special Engineer Detachment around 3/4 of the way down - that's the anecdote that I mentioned earlier.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

    Very amusing, well worth the read even if Feynman tends to self-aggrandize.

    Caltech’s worked hard at putting a lot of material about it’s history online. Feynman had a reputation as a horndog/babe-magnet in his time, a reputation he encouraged. A relative who was in the Cornell physics department in the 1950s used to say that Feynman was chucked out despite being the brightest star there (aside from Hans Bethe) basically because he was seducing too many faculty wives and causing a ruckus.

    I see now that Wikipedia confirms that story.

    He never settled into a particular house or apartment, living in guest houses or student residences, or with married friends “until these arrangements became sexually volatile.” [102] He liked to date undergraduates, hire prostitutes, and sleep with the wives of friends.

  174. Emily Chang holds women blameless, quelle surprise.

    Now when men get the idea to enjoy funemployment and allow women to take the high-paying 8-to-5 jobs, a funny thing happens: Their chance of divorce doubles or triples while unemployed.

    Let me run that by you again. Women exact a hell of a penalty for any husband who thinks about letting a layoff linger. A lot of these guys work boring office jobs like programmer / IT nerd.

    Hey, looks like Emily married a white guy. Very predictable. All about diversity in theory, she’s got White Fever in reality. She leaves the Asian-American guys holding their Wangs, then blames them for holding women back in Silicon Valley.

  175. @Jim Christian
    @theMann


    Seriously, how many 10 year old girls ever take a watch apart and try to reassemble it? How many 14 year old girls start gearheading in a major way? How many 18 year old women are running off to college going “oh boy, oh boy STEM! What can discover!”. And how far do you have to stick your head up your a$$ not to discover that men like to fix, invent, discover, and just simply play with, all technology? And women, not so much?
     
    Come on, man, brilliant women program the robot to go faster. Men are stooges, just to tools that enable the women to fly HIGH! It's the women. It's all about the women.

    https://youtu.be/sucKTktHYA8

    https://youtu.be/Co0qkWRqTdM

    Replies: @bartok

    How many 18 year old women are running off to college going “oh boy, oh boy STEM! What can discover!”.

    Quite a few follow their parents’ advice and the feminist propaganda and major in STEM. More than you would think graduate in STEM (because women are good at being dutiful students, and because final exams have less impact on your grade than they used to, with homework and class participation having more impact).

    But the real attrition comes later. Very very few are happy in STEM careers (except for bio/medical with its human interest).

  176. @Abe
    @Jack D


    Programming is one of those things that boys are naturally attracted to and most girls have no interest in.
     
    Nice history lesson, Jack, but hold on there for a moment. Just because women and girls have traditionally not been interested in these fields in the past does not mean, with the proper encouragement and role models, they could not become interested sometime in the future.

    I just watched this hip and really edgy sitcom where the daughter character is super-bright, and has super-heart, and doesn't conform to many gender stereotypes. She plays blues music, questions why her doll character doesn't do anything more than dress-up, and is basically the voice of conscience that even the grown-ups must eventually listen to. So let's hold off on our judgement and see if this, and other similarly positive girl role models, can't make a change for the better in the coming years. I think this new sitcom is called THE SIMPSONS or something...

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    doesn’t conform to many gender stereotypes

    She wears pearls

  177. @stillCARealist
    @Twinkie

    No, they resent God for not being born men. The resentment will only increase as some women insist on pursuing the man stuff they're not made for.

    Whatever happened to embracing the real me? Being myself? Wasn't that the mantra of popular individualism? Then the real me can be a woman and enjoy all the women stuff I want. I do what I like and what I'm good at. I avoid the nasty and scary things that I dislike.

    These feminists are trying to force women into roles and jobs they'll hate and fail at. Then there's the spiritual struggles of self-doubt and insecurity. Dumb, dumb. Go for what you love doing, ladies. If that means nursing, teaching, and service jobs, then so be it. Likely it means lots of years being a wife and mother. So be it.

    I don't know why I'm posting this here as so many of you are men, and men that despise women anyway.

    Replies: @Alden, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Twinkie, @Whoever

    men that despise women anyway.

    I hope that is not directed at me, because I cherish my wife and love my daughters. I do not hate women – they civilize men and are absolutely essential for a peaceful society. I merely bemoan that so many have fallen prey to “feminism,” though the clock seems to be turning on that.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Twinkie


    I merely bemoan that so many have fallen prey to “feminism,”
     
    Personally I dislike feminism because it's outrageously misogynistic. It's promoted by women who hate themselves for being women, and they hate any woman who doesn't hate herself for being female.

    Feminism is the ultimate in male supremacism.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @L Woods
    @Twinkie


    they civilize men
     
    That is the total opposite of what they do.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  178. @Anonymous
    @Paleo Liberal

    Women were prominent in early computing because they were recruited from the typing pool - operating a computer was seen as little different to operating a typewriter.

    Replies: @Alden, @Chrisnonymous, @Danand

    Women were prominent in early computing because they were recruited from the typing pool – operating a computer was seen as little different to operating a typewriter.”

    This is spot on the money. 35 – 40 years ago my observation was that for every man that could type 50 or so WPM semi-accurately, there were at least a dozen women who could do so. Most men simply had limited experience with typing; 2 finger mode was the male norm then.

  179. @Achmed E. Newman
    As an aside, I usually don't take time to look up these morons, so forgive me for the speculation. Is this Emily Chang really Chinese? The name just reminds me of a Seinfeld episode (highlight below).

    Does this stupid broad think that the readers will think she is wise because she has ancient Chinese family name? You're not fooling me, Emily Changstein! If that is the best you can come up with, then you people have duped me for the last time. No more following the advice of Mr. Confucius, and no more playing the numbers inside those fortune cookies!

    Why should I follow the advice of some lady from Long Island?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsKpShq2X6s

    Replies: @Duke of Qin

    She is a eurasian. Mother’s maiden name was Galeone, so Chinese Italian.

  180. @anon
    Are they talking about key punch operators?? When did key punch operators rule??

    Replies: @Jack D, @David Davenport

    That was the role of the women in Hidden Figures. They were human computers. That is not a compliment. They were replaced by pocket calculators, which were faster and more accurate.

    No, they weren’t human computers. They operated “calculators” — enhanced adding machines that could multiply and divide as well as add and subtract. These calculating machines didn’t have much electronics. They were electro-mechanical machines, similar to electric typewriters.

    I bet they produced no more than four significant figures, and had a way to indicate the order of magnitude. I have never looked at one up close.

    A human operator of such a machine could follow a script to work on nonlinear equations or linear algebra problems without the operator fully understanding the math.

    Such calculators were used during WWII and before.

    Are they talking about key punch operators?? When did key punch operators rule??

    Key pinch operators operated specialized typewriters to punch holes in rectangular cardboard cards. Google to find a picture. Punch cards existed before electronic computers were in use. International Business Machines started out in the 1920’s with electro-mechanical machines that could do simple tasks such as reading workers’ punched time cards and calculating wages and deductions.

    Cardboard “time cards” — Young peepul can Google to find out about those, too. If you had anything on the ball and didn’t need to be spoon fed, you’d Google before asking here.

    In roughly, the 1960’s, punch cards were used to feed data and programming instructions to mainframe computers.

  181. Elelctro-mechanical– many little gears on several axles in a box with typing keys. You might also Google “German Enigma encrypting machine.”

    A calculator operator or keypunch operator probably didn’t know how to use a slide rule. It’s a “tell” if the pee cee documentaries say nothing about women using slide rules. Slide rules were for a different pay grade– Nerds who understood the math.

  182. @Erik L
    I was a kid when the Apple II was released. I loved programming it and so did my brother and so did a lot of other nerds at our school. We had no adult role models and no expectation of getting a good job doing it some day. We just loved it even though (I assure you) at the time it was not cool. I knew no girl our age who felt the same way.

    The idea that we were influenced by the unintended consequences of a psychological study from 1968 is kind of silly.

    Here's a different hypothesis or two. In the early days computers were slow shared resources so they were frustrating to people like me but seemed like a perfect spot for bigcorp to place women. Then computers got faster and smaller and cheaper and everyone could have his own to tinker with on his own time. Naturally this lead to a concentration of people who were interested in them.

    Replies: @Lurker

    I remember in the early 80s, when a whole range of PCs became affordable, seemingly overnight – Apple, Apricot, Commodore and others I’ve forgotten. There were two stores near me with shelves of these weird and wonderful brands.

    There were older people browsing and buying, apparently for business purposes, some of whom may have been women. And teenage boys loitering and fiddling, I don’t remember seeing any girls around my age at all and when friends suggested going to these places it was always the boys, the girls never seemed to show any interest or propose the idea.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Lurker

    I literally never heard of Apricot Computers until your post. What country are you from?

    The biggest bomb computer in the US was the Adam. It drove Coleco out of business, and this was the company who sold Cabbage Patch Kids.

    Atari also made PC's before going out of business in 1996.

    Replies: @Lurker

  183. Jesus, 172 comments of utter nonsense. It’s as if you people never heard of the 70s and 80s, the height of corporate IT. And no, it wasn’t all COBOL.

    Corporate IT was around 50% female, with women represented in management, apps programming, systems programming, and database programming. Corporate IT had no education requirements other than a college degree and demonstrated success. Ironically, this was an area in which women could compete. There were tons of women with english and history edegrees in IT–as many men, too.

    The heyday of corporate IT ended in the early 90s, and slowly died out even more. At the same time, the internet startups began, with much more demand for education in technology and yes, more demand for hours and long-term payoffs. The secure jobs ended; women weren’t as a rule interested in getting PhDs in mathematics or computer science, and definitely not interested in working zillions of hours.

    But this whole nonsense about 60s, inputting, patchwork quilting, and the like, is just a bunch of lunacy. This is pretty well documented, too. The disappearance of women disappeared with IT, and that’s a 90s story, not a 60s story.

    I wrote about it on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/Ed_Realist/status/895180647995723776

    • Replies: @ziggurat
    @education realist

    I remember in the late 1990s, I was working in a Fortune 500 company that was struggling to get their Y2K bugs fixed. They started this speedy 4-month training program in Cobol, which accepted anyone with a college degree and passing grade on an aptitude test. This attracted a fairly even mix of men and women, who heralded from various backgrounds such as Spanish teacher, homemaker, painter, etc up to 40 years of age. Many of these people are still working there.

    So, if they want more women doing tech work, they could just start a training program like this again. I mean, what you mainly need is aptitude for corporate IT work. But of course, they won't do that. It's just cheaper to hire young H-1Bs, rather than train Americans.

    , @ScarletNumber
    @education realist


    I wrote about it on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/Ed_Realist/status/895180647995723776
     
    OK everybody. Blowhard Ed Realist chimed in. Thread closed.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    @education realist

    If you provided an example of available documentation, it would be more believable. I went to a pretty competitive university, and there was a really small percent of female CS majors. And I have never met a professional female programmer of any age. Both my HS and university logic classes were all male. In sciences, the women I've known have been motivated by (1) approval of others (2) immediate real-world benefit (3) or they are lesbians.

    It's really hard to imagine a 50/50 mix of programmers, especially one doing equivalent work.


    I wrote about it on Twitter
     
    LOL. No offense.
  184. @allahu akbar
    I really don't care.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @ScarletNumber

    Then why did you bother commenting?

  185. When I started taking computer classes in college in 1990, there were few women, only about 10% to 20%. I’ve read that it was up to 40% just a few years earlier.

    Here are my theories for the change:
    1) The home computer wasn’t available to most people until the early 1980s. We got our Apple II in 1980 and my brother and I took to it, whereas my sister not as much (though she was great at math). Men just like gadgets more than women. So, in other words, the home computer drove a lot of men into computer science.
    2) Computer science was once part of the math department, not long before I went to school in the late 1980s. It may be that this exposed more women into computers than they otherwise would have been.
    3) Computer science is a really a turn-off for women, because studies show women want interactions with people and want to do work that seems socially meaningful. I remember sitting next to a women in an intro computer class when she sighed outloud “I don’t want to sit in front of a computer all day”. I never saw her again. The intro classes often involved boring programs and you did all the work by yourself.
    4) Medical degrees and other degrees are just more attractive to women. I think in 1960 only about 5% of women received medical PhDs and now it’s above 55%.
    5) Software is not really a good job anymore, in terms of practical considerations, such as pay, work-life balance, and job security. Unless you’re really passionate about it, there are better careers.
    6) Men just like engineering more. What I think is amazing is how clueless people are that men dominate all engineering fields, not just software. Only about 20% of women major in any engineering field. But for some reason, there’s a fixation on women in tech, perhaps because it’s seen as more glamorous or perhaps because the tech industry has more lobbying power.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @ziggurat

    Yes. This restates the points I made above about work style and emotional payoff.

  186. @education realist
    Jesus, 172 comments of utter nonsense. It's as if you people never heard of the 70s and 80s, the height of corporate IT. And no, it wasn't all COBOL.

    Corporate IT was around 50% female, with women represented in management, apps programming, systems programming, and database programming. Corporate IT had no education requirements other than a college degree and demonstrated success. Ironically, this was an area in which women could compete. There were tons of women with english and history edegrees in IT--as many men, too.

    The heyday of corporate IT ended in the early 90s, and slowly died out even more. At the same time, the internet startups began, with much more demand for education in technology and yes, more demand for hours and long-term payoffs. The secure jobs ended; women weren't as a rule interested in getting PhDs in mathematics or computer science, and definitely not interested in working zillions of hours.

    But this whole nonsense about 60s, inputting, patchwork quilting, and the like, is just a bunch of lunacy. This is pretty well documented, too. The disappearance of women disappeared with IT, and that's a 90s story, not a 60s story.

    I wrote about it on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/Ed_Realist/status/895180647995723776

    Replies: @ziggurat, @ScarletNumber, @Chrisnonymous

    I remember in the late 1990s, I was working in a Fortune 500 company that was struggling to get their Y2K bugs fixed. They started this speedy 4-month training program in Cobol, which accepted anyone with a college degree and passing grade on an aptitude test. This attracted a fairly even mix of men and women, who heralded from various backgrounds such as Spanish teacher, homemaker, painter, etc up to 40 years of age. Many of these people are still working there.

    So, if they want more women doing tech work, they could just start a training program like this again. I mean, what you mainly need is aptitude for corporate IT work. But of course, they won’t do that. It’s just cheaper to hire young H-1Bs, rather than train Americans.

  187. @Lurker
    @Erik L

    I remember in the early 80s, when a whole range of PCs became affordable, seemingly overnight - Apple, Apricot, Commodore and others I've forgotten. There were two stores near me with shelves of these weird and wonderful brands.

    There were older people browsing and buying, apparently for business purposes, some of whom may have been women. And teenage boys loitering and fiddling, I don't remember seeing any girls around my age at all and when friends suggested going to these places it was always the boys, the girls never seemed to show any interest or propose the idea.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    I literally never heard of Apricot Computers until your post. What country are you from?

    The biggest bomb computer in the US was the Adam. It drove Coleco out of business, and this was the company who sold Cabbage Patch Kids.

    Atari also made PC’s before going out of business in 1996.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @ScarletNumber

    I'm in England. I'd almost forgotten Apricot until I started typing out the earlier comment.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_Computers

  188. @Jack D
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am guessing that they don't really exist or they would be poster girls like Maryam Mirzakhani. It's interesting BTW that Mirzakhani was from a horrible Muslim culture where they keep women under wraps and not from our wonderful "You Go Grrrl" culture.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Big Bill, @academic gossip

    They exist, but they rely more on family and school to bring out their talents. Mirzakhani, for example, went to a special school for gifted girls, and trained for the math competitions with a high-ability friend at the same school.

    In addition to the harsh but effective for incentives for girls to perform, Islamic countries also have separate girls’ schools, which helps for nurturing girls math and science talent.

  189. @education realist
    Jesus, 172 comments of utter nonsense. It's as if you people never heard of the 70s and 80s, the height of corporate IT. And no, it wasn't all COBOL.

    Corporate IT was around 50% female, with women represented in management, apps programming, systems programming, and database programming. Corporate IT had no education requirements other than a college degree and demonstrated success. Ironically, this was an area in which women could compete. There were tons of women with english and history edegrees in IT--as many men, too.

    The heyday of corporate IT ended in the early 90s, and slowly died out even more. At the same time, the internet startups began, with much more demand for education in technology and yes, more demand for hours and long-term payoffs. The secure jobs ended; women weren't as a rule interested in getting PhDs in mathematics or computer science, and definitely not interested in working zillions of hours.

    But this whole nonsense about 60s, inputting, patchwork quilting, and the like, is just a bunch of lunacy. This is pretty well documented, too. The disappearance of women disappeared with IT, and that's a 90s story, not a 60s story.

    I wrote about it on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/Ed_Realist/status/895180647995723776

    Replies: @ziggurat, @ScarletNumber, @Chrisnonymous

    I wrote about it on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/Ed_Realist/status/895180647995723776

    OK everybody. Blowhard Ed Realist chimed in. Thread closed.

  190. @Jack D
    @J.Ross


    Israel attempting to blame Poland for German actions.
     
    This is highly tendentious. You could also say that Poland is attempting to deny its own complicity with German actions.

    Certainly the Germans deserve (and have accepted) the vast share of responsibility but this does not totally exonerate the Poles. Maybe the Germans are 90% responsible and the Poles are 10% responsible but 10% is not nothing and it is false for the Poles to say that they had NOTHING, nothing at all to do with extermination of the Jews and anyone who says different should go to jail. Polish conduct during the war ranged the full gamut from horrific to indifferent to heroic but the Poles have to accept the truth that there were some who were glad to get rid of the Jews and did all they could to help the Germans (sometimes even took action on their own). This has been amply documented in a thousand different ways. Not to mention things like the Kielce pogrom that happened AFTER the Germans were gone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

    The double irony is that the same people who are saying that Poland has NO responsibility for the Holocaust are also the first ones to tell you that they don't really like Jews - you can't have it both ways.

    That being said, 42 Jews died in the Kielce pogrom while the Germans killed 3 million Polish Jews, so the Germans operated on an organized and industrial scale and Polish anti-Semitism was more of a peasants with pitchforks type of thing.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @newrouter, @dfordoom, @MarkinLA

    Certainly the Germans deserve (and have accepted) the vast share of responsibility but this does not totally exonerate the Poles.

    But the Germans and/or the Poles responsible for these things are pretty much all dead now. It was a long long time ago. You’re talking about how big a share of blame to assign to various groups of dead people.

    I’m sure you’re not unreasonable enough to want to assign blame to living people who weren’t even born when these things happened.

    So I’m not sure I see the point of it all.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @dfordoom

    Poland stirred up the hornet's nest by just passing a law making it a crime to attribute any blame to Poland. The dead are not really dead. People are still fighting over the American Civil War.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  191. @Twinkie
    @stillCARealist


    men that despise women anyway.
     
    I hope that is not directed at me, because I cherish my wife and love my daughters. I do not hate women - they civilize men and are absolutely essential for a peaceful society. I merely bemoan that so many have fallen prey to “feminism,” though the clock seems to be turning on that.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @L Woods

    I merely bemoan that so many have fallen prey to “feminism,”

    Personally I dislike feminism because it’s outrageously misogynistic. It’s promoted by women who hate themselves for being women, and they hate any woman who doesn’t hate herself for being female.

    Feminism is the ultimate in male supremacism.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @dfordoom


    Personally I dislike feminism because it’s outrageously misogynistic. It’s promoted by women who hate themselves for being women, and they hate any woman who doesn’t hate herself for being female.
     
    Certainly it has been very harmful for women. It also has made them much unhappier.

    Feminism is the ultimate in male supremacism.
     
    I can't say I agree, because feminism is non-zero sum. It's negative sum. It might have benefitted very few men, but it's certainly hurting lots of men, too. It's a destructive, unnatural ideology.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  192. @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    I noticed that a pretty overwhelming majority of female physics and EECS undergrads in college came from cultures not exactly known for treating women great-India, China, Iran, Russia. (Israel was a reoccuring odd exception.) Not all of them, but it was more disproportionate than the men.

    My own personal theory is that in cultures where women genuinely can't afford to mess around with whatever chances they get for a better life, they'll push aside whatever their own inclinations are and study what they need to. I even lived near a female Indian EE student who was studying that subject precisely because it got her out of an arranged marriage.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @PiltdownMan, @Escher

    China and Russia don’t exactly fall into the same category as India and Iran when it comes to women’s rights. At least some of that is a legacy of communism (IMO) that destroyed older social structures.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Escher

    That is true to some extent: for example, female literacy obviously wasn't a problem in the USSR after the 1920s, and of course, the female presence in the Red Army during WWII, unmatched by any other participant. But often not grasped is that the USSR was a strongly socially conservative, pro-natalist place after the Leninist era, atheism and technocratic bent aside, and a lot of this had to do with lingering social norms in Russian culture. Women were still excepted to do literally everything at home, often on top of working, and could never get away with the same kind of drunken nonsense that their male colleagues did. Courtship norms remained strongly old-fashioned, et all, and domestic abuse was a problem. Again, I think this contributed to women being found in technical fields so much: that was the best route to having the most independence. And thanks to the USSR's policies, they now had the option of pursuing that route.

    Also, Iran was a pretty secular, relatively socially liberal place before the Iranian Revolution, its authoritarian government aside-more socially liberal than the Soviet Union, let alone China. It pretty much led the developing world in female scientists-especially in the nuclear program-under the Shah, and one reason why you see a lot of female Iranian-Americans in the hard sciences is because they or their mothers ended up fleeing the purges of the mullahs in the 1980s. Many ended up in the USA.

    This is how Iranian women used to dress in the 1970s, at least in the big cities. It's a stunning contrast-hijabs were pretty much nonexistant. Prevailing norms were a lot less conservative back then. Of course, this contrast with the still influential and socially respected Islamic clergy was one of the boiling factors leading to the unrest of the late 1970s.

    https://mediaresources.idiva.com/media/content/2015/Dec/iran_70s_bigpicture_980x457.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/40/4c/cf404c2f88c888ce05238e3724fb41cc.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b1/74/41/b17441381f8d6204afbf8a323291ba1a.jpg

  193. @gunner29
    @Twinkie


    An unattractive woman, you mean.
     
    Last 25 years I came to realize this planet is organized for the benefit of two groups; attractive womyn and guys with money.

    The womyn demand outrageous amounts to spend time with you...first thing they determine is how much cash you got. Not enough? You're toast with her.

    Unattractive womyn, can't demand much money at all.

    Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Twinkie

    Last 25 years I came to realize this planet is organized for the benefit of two groups; attractive womyn and guys with money.

    Sure, attractive women and men with resources have it easier. But not everything in this world is for just such people.

    Besides, “attractive” is not just a physical attribute in women. When men get a bit older, many realize that women with a pleasant personality and a quick wit become very attractive (so long as, of course, they are not physically repulsive, obviously, and for most that is not hard to avoid). Similarly, men can earn resources.

    Again, it’s easier for some than others, but even for those others, it’s not insurmountable.

    And then there are other avenues of life where those characteristics are not as relevant. “Starving artists” appeal to many women. Rugged blue collar men do as well. Women who are kind and self-sacrificial (and eager to please) are always in demand. There are always some who are attracted to high intelligence, whether in men or women.

    On the other side of the coin, what is not in demand and most unattractive, for either sex, is whininess and a sense of entitlement that the world owes him/her something.

  194. @njguy73
    @Twinkie

    What's your wife's STEM doctorate in?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Sorry, no comment on that.

  195. @syonredux
    @Twinkie


    Women have lives.

    Put another way, women have babies.
     
    Babies are life.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Babies are life.

    Yes, I know. The original remark by Reg Caesar was “women have lives” and my reply started with “Put another way…” I was not contradicting or disagreeing with him, I was re-framing his remark.

  196. @academic gossip
    @Twinkie

    Amy has high but nowhere-near-YLS-professor level ability. She brute-forced her way through academia with big help from her personality, good looks, race/gender, marriage and connections. She spells out some of that history in her Tiger book.

    This greatly improves her published work, because she looks for relevant, big-picture topics and unmined commonsense angles (HBD Lite) instead of the pointless mental gymnastics of her higher-IQ colleagues.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Amy has high but nowhere-near-YLS-professor level ability.

    Have you met her?

    She brute-forced her way through academia with big help from her personality, good looks, race/gender, marriage and connections. She spells out some of that history in her Tiger book.

    Has it occurred to you that she might have been self-deprecating in her book, which ends with her (admitted) defeat by her willful second daughter?

    instead of the pointless mental gymnastics of her higher-IQ colleagues.

    She still contributed vastly more to social science, such as it is, than this other Emily Chang character whose work you accurately described as “pointless mental gymnastics.” Though I would re-phrase it as “pointless mental break-dancing.” Gymnastics is too kind a comparison even inside one’s brain.

    The only things Chua and Chang have in common are that they are both female and East Asian. Amy Chua-lite would be more Pamela Druckerman.

  197. @Abe
    @Twinkie


    That’s an insult to Amy Chua, who is clearly smarter, more successful, and has produced actual works of substance (before the Tiger Mom infamy).
     
    Well, I did call her Amy Chua-LITE. And anyway Amy Chua was in STEM, couldn't hack it, and was told by her genius-level father (pretty sure if his field were more related to a Nobel category he'd have one of those by now) to try ECON instead. Did Amy Chua produce other substantive works besides the WORLD ON FIRE/middleman minority one? So maybe I'm not giving her enough credit, but her latest work seems to be going in a decidedly sub-Malcolm Gladwell/Michael Lewis direction. And being basically a journalist it kind of has to to keep bringing in the paychecks each month.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Well, I did call her Amy Chua-LITE.

    But why even compare this imbecile to Amy Chua? What do they have in common except that they are both female and East Asian?

    her latest work seems to be going in a decidedly sub-Malcolm Gladwell/Michael Lewis direction. And being basically a journalist it kind of has to to keep bringing in the paychecks each month.

    As people get older, their academic rigor tends to decline (mental acuity drops off starting in your mid-thirties and then there is a sharp cliff around 60-65), and even star intellectuals live off the glory of the earlier years and tend to dole out wisdom rather than intelligence (the former is arguably more valuable in the Aristotelian sense of excellence). And I don’t mind her collecting paychecks to put her offspring through expensive schools, provided she’s not causing harm – and I don’t think she is. If anything, she in her own small ways has widened the Overton window. That’s a net positive in my view.

  198. @dfordoom
    @Twinkie


    I merely bemoan that so many have fallen prey to “feminism,”
     
    Personally I dislike feminism because it's outrageously misogynistic. It's promoted by women who hate themselves for being women, and they hate any woman who doesn't hate herself for being female.

    Feminism is the ultimate in male supremacism.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Personally I dislike feminism because it’s outrageously misogynistic. It’s promoted by women who hate themselves for being women, and they hate any woman who doesn’t hate herself for being female.

    Certainly it has been very harmful for women. It also has made them much unhappier.

    Feminism is the ultimate in male supremacism.

    I can’t say I agree, because feminism is non-zero sum. It’s negative sum. It might have benefitted very few men, but it’s certainly hurting lots of men, too. It’s a destructive, unnatural ideology.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Twinkie



    Feminism is the ultimate in male supremacism.
     
    I can’t say I agree, because feminism is non-zero sum. It’s negative sum. It might have benefitted very few men, but it’s certainly hurting lots of men, too. It’s a destructive, unnatural ideology.

     

    I didn't express myself well. Feminism is male supremacist in the sense that it believes women should emulate men and repress women's feminine characteristics. To feminists the only worthwhile women are women who essentially live as if they are men. Feminists are women who want to be men.

    But of course in practice, in the real world, it's been catastrophic for both men and women.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  199. @Twinkie
    @Abe


    Miss Amy Chua-lite
     
    That’s an insult to Amy Chua, who is clearly smarter, more successful, and has produced actual works of substance (before the Tiger Mom infamy).

    Replies: @academic gossip, @Abe, @Chuck

    That’s an insult to Amy Chua

    M’lady.

  200. Begging your pardon

    I worked in computing in the 1960s and this book is one big lie.

    Maybe 10% (max) of the workforce was female.

  201. @education realist
    Jesus, 172 comments of utter nonsense. It's as if you people never heard of the 70s and 80s, the height of corporate IT. And no, it wasn't all COBOL.

    Corporate IT was around 50% female, with women represented in management, apps programming, systems programming, and database programming. Corporate IT had no education requirements other than a college degree and demonstrated success. Ironically, this was an area in which women could compete. There were tons of women with english and history edegrees in IT--as many men, too.

    The heyday of corporate IT ended in the early 90s, and slowly died out even more. At the same time, the internet startups began, with much more demand for education in technology and yes, more demand for hours and long-term payoffs. The secure jobs ended; women weren't as a rule interested in getting PhDs in mathematics or computer science, and definitely not interested in working zillions of hours.

    But this whole nonsense about 60s, inputting, patchwork quilting, and the like, is just a bunch of lunacy. This is pretty well documented, too. The disappearance of women disappeared with IT, and that's a 90s story, not a 60s story.

    I wrote about it on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/Ed_Realist/status/895180647995723776

    Replies: @ziggurat, @ScarletNumber, @Chrisnonymous

    If you provided an example of available documentation, it would be more believable. I went to a pretty competitive university, and there was a really small percent of female CS majors. And I have never met a professional female programmer of any age. Both my HS and university logic classes were all male. In sciences, the women I’ve known have been motivated by (1) approval of others (2) immediate real-world benefit (3) or they are lesbians.

    It’s really hard to imagine a 50/50 mix of programmers, especially one doing equivalent work.

    I wrote about it on Twitter

    LOL. No offense.

  202. @ziggurat
    When I started taking computer classes in college in 1990, there were few women, only about 10% to 20%. I've read that it was up to 40% just a few years earlier.

    Here are my theories for the change:
    1) The home computer wasn't available to most people until the early 1980s. We got our Apple II in 1980 and my brother and I took to it, whereas my sister not as much (though she was great at math). Men just like gadgets more than women. So, in other words, the home computer drove a lot of men into computer science.
    2) Computer science was once part of the math department, not long before I went to school in the late 1980s. It may be that this exposed more women into computers than they otherwise would have been.
    3) Computer science is a really a turn-off for women, because studies show women want interactions with people and want to do work that seems socially meaningful. I remember sitting next to a women in an intro computer class when she sighed outloud "I don't want to sit in front of a computer all day". I never saw her again. The intro classes often involved boring programs and you did all the work by yourself.
    4) Medical degrees and other degrees are just more attractive to women. I think in 1960 only about 5% of women received medical PhDs and now it's above 55%.
    5) Software is not really a good job anymore, in terms of practical considerations, such as pay, work-life balance, and job security. Unless you're really passionate about it, there are better careers.
    6) Men just like engineering more. What I think is amazing is how clueless people are that men dominate all engineering fields, not just software. Only about 20% of women major in any engineering field. But for some reason, there's a fixation on women in tech, perhaps because it's seen as more glamorous or perhaps because the tech industry has more lobbying power.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    Yes. This restates the points I made above about work style and emotional payoff.

  203. @dfordoom
    @Jack D


    Certainly the Germans deserve (and have accepted) the vast share of responsibility but this does not totally exonerate the Poles.
     
    But the Germans and/or the Poles responsible for these things are pretty much all dead now. It was a long long time ago. You're talking about how big a share of blame to assign to various groups of dead people.

    I'm sure you're not unreasonable enough to want to assign blame to living people who weren't even born when these things happened.

    So I'm not sure I see the point of it all.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Poland stirred up the hornet’s nest by just passing a law making it a crime to attribute any blame to Poland. The dead are not really dead. People are still fighting over the American Civil War.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Jack D


    Poland stirred up the hornet’s nest by just passing a law making it a crime to attribute any blame to Poland. /blockquote>

    I'll put it another way. Do you think that people should be held accountable for crimes that were committed before they were born?
     

     
  204. @Twinkie
    @stillCARealist


    men that despise women anyway.
     
    I hope that is not directed at me, because I cherish my wife and love my daughters. I do not hate women - they civilize men and are absolutely essential for a peaceful society. I merely bemoan that so many have fallen prey to “feminism,” though the clock seems to be turning on that.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @L Woods

    they civilize men

    That is the total opposite of what they do.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @L Woods

    I don’t think you understand what I mean.

  205. Anonymous [AKA "My Simple Handle"] says:
    @GSH
    The most annoying thing about this issue is that the real cause is actually more interesting. The real cause looks to be related to the tech bubbles. All you need to do is graph the raw numbers for CS degrees given out.

    Here's a blog post which did so a few years back: http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2014/10/women-in-computer-science.html

    Rather than sexism, an alternate explanation which fits better is risk-aversion and reaction to the boom/bust cycle that tech periodically goes through.

    Replies: @Stirner, @Anonymous

    I think you’re onto something.

    Men are disproportionately attracted to high-risk high-reward work.

    In 1958 computer programming was not that. Electronics and hardware were. Like Fairchild.

    In 2018 computer programming is.

    I’ve watched several tech startups mature. In their risky, no-holds-barred early life they tend to be more male. The ones that survive, as they become large and stable, attract more women.

    It’s not only a gender thing, it’s a personality thing. I know plenty of young, smart, single males who you’d think would be the perfect startup type, yet they were afraid to take the plunge. But that personality preference is itself correlated with gender.

  206. @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @nebulafox


    Von Neumann, Szilard, Wigner, and Teller alone were all born in the same neighborhood in Budapest. They pretty much followed the career trajectory: Hungary->Germany->America.
     
    Yes, but no one compares to Von Neumann. To recognize Godel's work, from first sight, demonstrates his genius. And that is without all the other demonstrations of his genius.

    Von Neumann wasn't just a first-rate mind. Von Neumann was the exemplar for first-rate minds.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Oh, yes. Even the other Martians I listed-called such precisely because these Hungarian Jews all born in the same neighborhood in the same decade were all recognized as so freaking over-the-top brilliant that people joked about aliens coming to Budapest to impregnate their mothers-were in utter awe of him. Teller openly stated that von Neumann effortlessly outdid everybody in everything, and that he could never keep up with him. Wigner said that watching von Neumann’s mind was like watching an absolutely perfect, accurate machine-no mistakes. Other physicists and mathematicians mostly commented the same. His own teachers in graduate school were scared of him.

    He pretty much could do *everything* that he put his mind to. (Except drive, apparently.) Not just in the hard sciences, either. Foreign languages, Byzantine history, literature, you name it. If I could choose to dissect any one brain in history and learn how it worked, it would be his. And on top of that, he was also quite the charmer and social butterfly. He was a regular in Weimar Berlin’s famous caberet scene, his parties in Princeton became famous… and everybody who interacted with him loved him.

  207. @Escher
    @nebulafox

    China and Russia don't exactly fall into the same category as India and Iran when it comes to women's rights. At least some of that is a legacy of communism (IMO) that destroyed older social structures.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    That is true to some extent: for example, female literacy obviously wasn’t a problem in the USSR after the 1920s, and of course, the female presence in the Red Army during WWII, unmatched by any other participant. But often not grasped is that the USSR was a strongly socially conservative, pro-natalist place after the Leninist era, atheism and technocratic bent aside, and a lot of this had to do with lingering social norms in Russian culture. Women were still excepted to do literally everything at home, often on top of working, and could never get away with the same kind of drunken nonsense that their male colleagues did. Courtship norms remained strongly old-fashioned, et all, and domestic abuse was a problem. Again, I think this contributed to women being found in technical fields so much: that was the best route to having the most independence. And thanks to the USSR’s policies, they now had the option of pursuing that route.

    Also, Iran was a pretty secular, relatively socially liberal place before the Iranian Revolution, its authoritarian government aside-more socially liberal than the Soviet Union, let alone China. It pretty much led the developing world in female scientists-especially in the nuclear program-under the Shah, and one reason why you see a lot of female Iranian-Americans in the hard sciences is because they or their mothers ended up fleeing the purges of the mullahs in the 1980s. Many ended up in the USA.

    This is how Iranian women used to dress in the 1970s, at least in the big cities. It’s a stunning contrast-hijabs were pretty much nonexistant. Prevailing norms were a lot less conservative back then. Of course, this contrast with the still influential and socially respected Islamic clergy was one of the boiling factors leading to the unrest of the late 1970s.

  208. @Jack D
    @inertial

    As I said before, there were a lot of Jews involved with aeronautics and space on the Soviet side and very few in the US (vs say math or physics where there were tons of prominent Jews on both sides of the Iron Curtain). And this despite the discrimination that Jews experienced in the USSR. So what is the explanation?

    Replies: @newrouter, @J.Ross, @inertial

    In the Russian Empire, most Jews made their living from some sort of a private business and the educated one went into professions. The Jews who immigrated to America just continued doing what they were doing. Not so those who remained behind.

    After the revolution, owning a business was gradually outlawed. Choosing a professional career meant overcoming huge obstacles. In the early USSR Jews were often discriminated against when it came to education or professional advance. At that point it was not because they were Jews but because so few of them had been workers or peasants.

    At the same time, the Bolsheviks initiated a major program for retaining the old pre-revolutionary scientific and technical talent and training the new one. Bonus points if those new engineers came from the Holy Proletariat but they took anyone who could hack it.

    (As an illustration, Boris Chertok, the number two man in the Soviet space program, apllied to college after he graduated from high school in 1930. He passed the entrance exams but was refused admittance because his parents were professionals (an accountant and a medic.) They advised him to go find a job as a laborer at a manufacturing plant, then come back after a few years and he’d be admitted because now he’d be a proletarian. Chertok found a job as an electrician at an airplane factory, and the rest is history.)

    This kind of work was seen as prestigious and honorable and many smart and ambitious Jewish youngsters flocked into the field. After a generation, no one thought any longer that there was anything unusual about such a choice. If your parent is an engineer there is a good chance you’d become one too.

    Having said that, I also have to say the the Jews who contributed to the Soviet space program belonged to a certain generation. After the Six-Day War and the start of Jewish immigration the Soviet government severely limited the number of Jews who were allowed to work in this area. Not so much out of antisemitism but because Jews were presumed to be potential emigrants. The Jewish old-timers continued to work but but they were not replaced by younger Jewish scientists or engineers.

  209. @newrouter
    @Jack D

    "Polish conduct during the war ranged the full gamut from horrific to indifferent to heroic but the Poles have to accept the truth that there were some who were glad to get rid of the Jews and did all they could to help the Germans (sometimes even took action on their own). This has been amply documented in a thousand different ways. Not to mention things like the Kielce pogrom that happened AFTER the Germans were gone. "

    Holocaust is boring! Now can we move on to Pol Pot or the Tutis/Hutu thing.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    “Now can we move on to Pol Pot or the Tutis/Hutu thing.’

    Or the Holodomor

  210. @ScarletNumber
    @Lurker

    I literally never heard of Apricot Computers until your post. What country are you from?

    The biggest bomb computer in the US was the Adam. It drove Coleco out of business, and this was the company who sold Cabbage Patch Kids.

    Atari also made PC's before going out of business in 1996.

    Replies: @Lurker

    I’m in England. I’d almost forgotten Apricot until I started typing out the earlier comment.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_Computers

  211. @L Woods
    @Twinkie


    they civilize men
     
    That is the total opposite of what they do.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I don’t think you understand what I mean.

  212. @stillCARealist
    @Twinkie

    No, they resent God for not being born men. The resentment will only increase as some women insist on pursuing the man stuff they're not made for.

    Whatever happened to embracing the real me? Being myself? Wasn't that the mantra of popular individualism? Then the real me can be a woman and enjoy all the women stuff I want. I do what I like and what I'm good at. I avoid the nasty and scary things that I dislike.

    These feminists are trying to force women into roles and jobs they'll hate and fail at. Then there's the spiritual struggles of self-doubt and insecurity. Dumb, dumb. Go for what you love doing, ladies. If that means nursing, teaching, and service jobs, then so be it. Likely it means lots of years being a wife and mother. So be it.

    I don't know why I'm posting this here as so many of you are men, and men that despise women anyway.

    Replies: @Alden, @Charles Erwin Wilson, @Twinkie, @Whoever

    I don’t know why I’m posting this here as so many of you are men, and men that despise women anyway.

    I’ve wondered how many bodies some of these commenters have on them. If Ted Bundy were around, he’d be posting.

  213. As someone who actually worked in computer programming
    in the U.S. in the 1960s, I can tell you that women never ruled
    the computer world. I worked for a major corporation, and while
    it’s true that there were a lot of women around on my floor, most
    of them were secretaries and keypunch operators. People forget
    how many secretaries companies used to employ (same with bank
    clerks). You didn’t feel you got a promotion unless it came with your
    own personal secretary. There were all sorts of jokes about taking a dip
    in the secretarial pool. Among actual programmers women, I’d say,
    were about 15-20% of the total, most involved in accounting applications.

  214. @BB753
    Good question! Where did all those sassy black ladies who took us to the moon and basically invented computing from scratch go? White privilege, I tell ya! Whitey took all their accomplishments, sacked them and sent them back to the guetto, where they barely made a living cleaning the homes of rich white Palo Altans. It's a horrible story that needs to be told, preferably by George Lucas.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    LOL

    It’s not fair!

    • Agree: BB753
  215. @El Dato
    This trend of positing that "women were once queens in IT" or "if only women had continued to be queens in IT then..." (modern algorithms would not be so racist?) is really despiriting.

    Poor Katherine Johnson gets rolled out on every occasion. As explained here;

    http://nautil.us/issue/43/heroes/the-woman-the-mercury-astronauts-couldnt-do-without

    She did not work WITH computers. She WAS the computer and math-technician: she was responsible for setting up the equations describing the path of Mercury and doing computation by hand:


    “In the recovery of an artificial earth satellite it is necessary to bring the satellite over a preselected point above the earth from which the re-entry is to be initiated,” she wrote. Equation 3 described the satellite’s velocity. Equation 19 fixed the longitude position of the satellite at time T. Equation A3 accounted for errors in longitude. Equation A8 adjusted for Earth’s west-to-east rotation and oblation. She conferred with Ted Skopinski, consulted her textbooks, and did her own plotting. Over the months of 1959, the 34-page end product took shape: 22 principal equations, nine error equations, two launch case studies, three reference texts, two tables with sample calculations, and three pages of charts.
     
    Indeed, the computer guys were in the OTHER room:

    In the final section of the Azimuth Angle research report she completed in 1959, Katherine had marched through the calculations for two different sample orbits, one following an eastward launch and the other a westward, as Glenn was scheduled to fly. Once she had worked out the math for the test scenarios on her calculating machine, substituting the hypothetical numbers for variables in the system of equations, the Mission Planning and Analysis Division within the Space Task Group took her math and programmed it into their IBM 704. Using the same hypothetical numbers, they ran the program on the electronic computer, to the pleasing end that there was “very good agreement” between the IBM’s output and Katherine’s calculations. The work she had done in 1959, double-checking the IBM’s numbers, was a dress rehearsal—a simulation, like the ones John Glenn had been carrying out—for the task that would be laid on her desk on the defining day of her career.
     
    Here is a book with a similar dubious premiss from MIT Press:

    https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/programmed-inequality


    Programmed Inequality: How Britain Discarded Women Technologists and Lost Its Edge in Computing

    By Marie Hicks

    In 1944, Britain led the world in electronic computing. By 1974, the British computer industry was all but extinct. What happened in the intervening thirty years holds lessons for all postindustrial superpowers. As Britain struggled to use technology to retain its global power, the nation’s inability to manage its technical labor force hobbled its transition into the information age.

    In Programmed Inequality, Marie Hicks explores the story of labor feminization and gendered technocracy that undercut British efforts to computerize. That failure sprang from the government’s systematic neglect of its largest trained technical workforce simply because they were women. Women were a hidden engine of growth in high technology from World War II to the 1960s. As computing experienced a gender flip, becoming male-identified in the 1960s and 1970s, labor problems grew into structural ones and gender discrimination caused the nation’s largest computer user—the civil service and sprawling public sector—to make decisions that were disastrous for the British computer industry and the nation as a whole.
     

    Yeah well. Relying on the British State to create a computer industry was the mistake to avoid. France had the same problem. That and being burnt out by WWII and the colonial wars thereafter. Does anyone remember early computer companies from the UK of France?

    In the US, there were "IBM and the Seven Dwarfs". It was US hardware that got bought, definitely.

    http://www.dvorak.org/blog/ibm-and-the-seven-dwarfs-dwarf-one-burroughs/

    IBM and the Seven Dwarfs — It was a coinage of the mid-1960’s as IBM dominated the computer business. IBM and the Seven Dwarfs was how the business was described. By 1965 IBM had a 65.3-percent market share of the industry. The seven dwarfs shared the rest. They were: Burroughs, Sperry Rand (formerly Remington Rand), Control Data, Honeywell, General Electric, RCA and NCR.

    (What about Japan? They built their own industry, although with a bit of delay, and probably help from MITI, one would like to know more about this.)

    Replies: @MarkinLA

    When I was at Burroughs in the late 70s. Burroughs was number 2 by a nose over the other companies of the day. The only company in Europe that anybody knew about was Groupe Bull in France.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupe_Bull

    I even spent some time in Scotland at a Burroughs subsidiary. Most of the computer companies in GB were American subsidiaries. They had good engineers and at the time were dirt cheap.

  216. @Jack D
    @J.Ross


    Israel attempting to blame Poland for German actions.
     
    This is highly tendentious. You could also say that Poland is attempting to deny its own complicity with German actions.

    Certainly the Germans deserve (and have accepted) the vast share of responsibility but this does not totally exonerate the Poles. Maybe the Germans are 90% responsible and the Poles are 10% responsible but 10% is not nothing and it is false for the Poles to say that they had NOTHING, nothing at all to do with extermination of the Jews and anyone who says different should go to jail. Polish conduct during the war ranged the full gamut from horrific to indifferent to heroic but the Poles have to accept the truth that there were some who were glad to get rid of the Jews and did all they could to help the Germans (sometimes even took action on their own). This has been amply documented in a thousand different ways. Not to mention things like the Kielce pogrom that happened AFTER the Germans were gone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

    The double irony is that the same people who are saying that Poland has NO responsibility for the Holocaust are also the first ones to tell you that they don't really like Jews - you can't have it both ways.

    That being said, 42 Jews died in the Kielce pogrom while the Germans killed 3 million Polish Jews, so the Germans operated on an organized and industrial scale and Polish anti-Semitism was more of a peasants with pitchforks type of thing.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @newrouter, @dfordoom, @MarkinLA

    Maybe the Germans are 90% responsible and the Poles are 10% responsible but 10% is not nothing and it is false for the Poles to say that they had NOTHING

    Just wondering, but what percentage of the blame should go to Jews themselves. I mean if it was a death camp as claimed, why bother working at all, why not just continually riot? What’s the difference, getting shot, getting gassed, at least you might take some German with you.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @MarkinLA

    Jews have their own version of "Uncle Tom": https://www.timesofisrael.com/on-david-friedman-the-kapo-smear-and-jewish-honor/

  217. @MarkinLA
    @Jack D

    Maybe the Germans are 90% responsible and the Poles are 10% responsible but 10% is not nothing and it is false for the Poles to say that they had NOTHING

    Just wondering, but what percentage of the blame should go to Jews themselves. I mean if it was a death camp as claimed, why bother working at all, why not just continually riot? What's the difference, getting shot, getting gassed, at least you might take some German with you.

    Replies: @Anon

  218. @Twinkie
    @dfordoom


    Personally I dislike feminism because it’s outrageously misogynistic. It’s promoted by women who hate themselves for being women, and they hate any woman who doesn’t hate herself for being female.
     
    Certainly it has been very harmful for women. It also has made them much unhappier.

    Feminism is the ultimate in male supremacism.
     
    I can't say I agree, because feminism is non-zero sum. It's negative sum. It might have benefitted very few men, but it's certainly hurting lots of men, too. It's a destructive, unnatural ideology.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Feminism is the ultimate in male supremacism.

    I can’t say I agree, because feminism is non-zero sum. It’s negative sum. It might have benefitted very few men, but it’s certainly hurting lots of men, too. It’s a destructive, unnatural ideology.

    I didn’t express myself well. Feminism is male supremacist in the sense that it believes women should emulate men and repress women’s feminine characteristics. To feminists the only worthwhile women are women who essentially live as if they are men. Feminists are women who want to be men.

    But of course in practice, in the real world, it’s been catastrophic for both men and women.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @dfordoom

    Yes, you are quite right.

  219. @Jack D
    @dfordoom

    Poland stirred up the hornet's nest by just passing a law making it a crime to attribute any blame to Poland. The dead are not really dead. People are still fighting over the American Civil War.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Poland stirred up the hornet’s nest by just passing a law making it a crime to attribute any blame to Poland. /blockquote>

    I’ll put it another way. Do you think that people should be held accountable for crimes that were committed before they were born?

  220. @dfordoom
    @Twinkie



    Feminism is the ultimate in male supremacism.
     
    I can’t say I agree, because feminism is non-zero sum. It’s negative sum. It might have benefitted very few men, but it’s certainly hurting lots of men, too. It’s a destructive, unnatural ideology.

     

    I didn't express myself well. Feminism is male supremacist in the sense that it believes women should emulate men and repress women's feminine characteristics. To feminists the only worthwhile women are women who essentially live as if they are men. Feminists are women who want to be men.

    But of course in practice, in the real world, it's been catastrophic for both men and women.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Yes, you are quite right.

  221. @MG
    The staff in Feynman’s computing group at Los Alamos were almost all women. But that was before we had H-1B cheap labor from India.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Brutusale

    Given Feynman’s reputation as a rake, he was probably schtupping half of them.

  222. @Daniel Chieh
    @YetAnotherAnon

    In a longish IT career I’ve seen very few female coding nerds, the sort who are totally uninterested in the business they’re employed in but only in the code and the interface.
     

    I have heard of them, but I have never known one despite working in technology for a good part of my life. I have seen women who are passably good at webcode and quite excellent at user interface and design, but I've never seen a woman who was seriously interested in algorithms, high level abstractions or genuinely being a "hacker." Most of what I've seen from women who claim that is essentially cargo culting - which can be super annoying.

    Replies: @Jack D, @academic gossip, @Brutusale

    “Women” in tech are mostly like this freak. Compare and contrast the competing ‘pedias on it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brianna_Wu

    https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Brianna_Wu

    This loon is running for Congress against a union-card-carrying Southie Irishman!

    As Glenn Reynolds is apt to say, this isn’t the 21st Century I expected.

  223. @Jack D
    @Shouting Thomas


    Not so great or welcoming for women who like order, HR departments, scheduled breaks, defined job limits, etc.
     
    The flip side of that is that once women capture an industry and impose the kind of order that they like, it's pretty much the death knell of creativity for that industry. The growth phase is over, no more new billionaires.

    So where will ambitious American men migrate (physically and occupationally) now that it seems like curtains for Silicon Valley?

    Replies: @Shouting Thomas, @Paul Murphy, @Achmed E. Newman

    The flip side of that is that once women capture an industry and impose the kind of order that they like, it’s pretty much the death knell of creativity for that industry.

    Exhibit A: Primary Education. I rest my case, your honor.

  224. @grapesoda

    In 1962, as depicted in the 2016 film Hidden Figures, three black women working as NASA mathematicians helped calculate the flight paths that put John Glenn into orbit.
     
    "Mom made dinner, and I helped!"

    Replies: @Jack D, @Achmed E. Newman

    Thanks for the shake n bake commercial reference. It’s been a long time!

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