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From the New York Times news section:

… But this information is not new: The C.D.C. has been using similar language for months. If anything, the headlines have pulled into sharper focus what we already know about the virus.

 
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  1. Not much “control” coming from the “Center for Disease Control”, so to paraphrase Yeats –it looks like the “center” didn’t hold.

    Exactly what do these people do anyway?

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Prester John


    Exactly what do these people do anyway?
     
    The CDC plans for a pandemic. And when one finally arrives, it issues plans to deal with its lack of planning.
    , @BenKenobi
    @Prester John

    https://politics.theonion.com/epa-to-drop-e-p-from-name-1819567767

    , @TomSchmidt
    @Prester John

    Exactly what do these people do anyway?

    The same might be asked about the intelligence community, which seems to have missed the biggest threat to the USA, and of course the defense budget. You could probably throw the FBI into the mix, too.

    We need to dig out from under the debt (not that we will), and this years debtpalooza could be paid off in less than five years if we cut all these activities to 20% of current cost.

    , @Hail
    @Prester John

    Artist's rendition of the Corona-Panic and the CDC's role:

    https://hailtoyou.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/us-media-during-coronapanic-of-2020-centers-for-the-spread-of-mass-hysteria.jpg

    , @Alfa158
    @Prester John

    See John Derbyshire and his “get a government job!”
    “What do these people do anyway is” : they hold nice jobs with inflated titles, that pay better salaries and benefits than equivalent private sector jobs, generous pensions with full health care, the opportunity to double dip by consulting with your old agency after retiring, are affirmative action jobs many of them could not even hold in for-profit companies, and are almost impossible to be fired or laid off from unless you violate PC codes.
    What they might be doing while at those jobs is secondary to the above.

    , @Forbes
    @Prester John

    Like any government employment--a jobs scheme, or I suppose, it's really just a paycheck scheme as no actual job is performed, apparently.

  2. I never understood why people would think it would be easier to get a *respiratory* disease by touching things. Isn’t it obvious that it’s easier to get a lung disease through your lungs?

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @allensheep


    I never understood why people would think it would be easier to get a *respiratory* disease by touching things. Isn’t it obvious that it’s easier to get a lung disease through your lungs?
     
    Allen, your IQ has disqualified you for work at the CDC. Sorry.
    , @Mr. Anon
    @allensheep


    I never understood why people would think it would be easier to get a *respiratory* disease by touching things. Isn’t it obvious that it’s easier to get a lung disease through your lungs?
     
    I never understood the Trump administration's excuse that they didn't know the disease could be spread person-to-person because the Chinese lied about it. It was an obvious lie. What infectious respiratory disease is not spread person-to-person?
    , @Forbes
    @allensheep

    The "wash your hands and don't touch your face" admonishment for a respiratory infection was mind boggling.

    Now you have people walking around in public wearing masks as if the ambient air carries a sufficient viral load to cause infection. If that were true, we'd all have been infected by now.

    Replies: @anon, @Anonymous

  3. Anonymous[413] • Disclaimer says:

    One of the things that a lot of people have been doing is hand sanitizing when in public, before/after grocery shopping. (Well, before – if you care to spend the 5c and 10 seconds of time to reduce the chance of someone else dying. Of course… for others not expending this time and expense is not only a god-given right, it could be considered performing a public service!) There is also the reduced face touching having an impact.

    When you remove transmission pathways, the remaining pathways loom large by comparison. This is also why multiple methods in tandem act to reduce R. If you want to reduce aerosolization
    transmission, the methods for that are keep outside, wear masks inside, social distancing, and various methods of detecting it early and isolating.

    One can consider this to be somewhat like insulating a house. I don’t think it ever pays to under-insulate a house but a lot of people say that there is not much point insulating under the floor, or that it is a waste beyond a certain level (even though the labor is more expensive than selecting wide enough batts to fill the joist space). If you have already insulated the ceiling and walls, your heating bill will become lower. However now, much more of the heat on a percentage basis will escape via windows and floor. Thus when you finally do get around to insulating the underfloor space, you find that there is a significant difference in the heating bill and also the quality of life improves because there are less cold spots in the house.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Anonymous

    Sigh... some people are just ill-equipped to deal with the complexities of modern life, and you end up with headcases like this. The cognitive strain is just too much for them. We used to know what to do with such people, but now we let their neuroses rule over us. Until we put the adults back in charge, there is no hope for our civilization.

    Replies: @anon

    , @TomSchmidt
    @Anonymous

    even though the labor is more expensive than selecting wide enough batts to fill the joist space

    No serious insulation person EVER recommends batts. You have to stop the airflow, and batts don't do that. Spray foam is the stuff.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Anonymous


    One of the things that a lot of people have been doing is hand sanitizing when in public, before/after grocery shopping. (Well, before – if you care to spend the 5c and 10 seconds of time to reduce the chance of someone else dying. Of course… for others not expending this time and expense is not only a god-given right, it could be considered performing a public service!)
     
    Disinfecting the crap out of everything all the time is just going to result in the evolution of disinfectant-resistant microbes. Just washing with soap and water is good enough for most occasions. Disinfectants should be reserved for those cases where a thorough sterilization needs to be done and can actually be done.

    There was a TV commercial for disinfectant wipes that show some Mom wiping down a counter-top after Baby spills food on it. It's food! You were feeding it to your kid! How bad can it be? It doesn't instantly turn into a bio-hazard the moment it touches the formica.

    Replies: @botazefa

  4. Assuming it’s unaltered, the CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report initially on February 7, and through subsequent follow-ups, identified “2019-nCov” as being transmitted primarily through the air.

    Initial report, February 7:

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6905e1.htm?s_cid=mm6905e1_w

    Second paragraph of summary:

    Person-to-person spread is evident; however, how easily the virus is transmitted between persons is currently unclear. 2019-nCoV is similar to coronaviruses that cause MERS and SARS, which are transmitted mainly by respiratory droplets.

    February 24:

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6908e1.htm?s_cid=mm6908e1_w

    Second paragraph of summary:

    Person-to-person spread of COVID-19 appears to occur mainly by respiratory transmission. How easily the virus is transmitted between persons is currently unclear.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Edit window closed, but I meant to add that neither report said anything about surface transmission.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    , @Anonymous
    @Jenner Ickham Errican


    2019-nCoV is similar to coronaviruses that cause MERS and SARS, which are transmitted mainly by respiratory droplets.
     
    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces and then transferred by the hands onto mouths or into noses.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @AnotherDad

  5. Center for Disease Control = Correlations? Rodent feces!

    • Agree: Haruto Rat
    • LOL: Chrisnonymous
    • Replies: @ChrisZ
    @Reg Cæsar

    Your greatest effort yet, Reg. Breathtaking.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Reg Cæsar

    Spectacular.

  6. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Assuming it’s unaltered, the CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report initially on February 7, and through subsequent follow-ups, identified “2019-nCov” as being transmitted primarily through the air.

    Initial report, February 7:

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6905e1.htm?s_cid=mm6905e1_w

    Second paragraph of summary:

    Person-to-person spread is evident; however, how easily the virus is transmitted between persons is currently unclear. 2019-nCoV is similar to coronaviruses that cause MERS and SARS, which are transmitted mainly by respiratory droplets.
     
    February 24:

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6908e1.htm?s_cid=mm6908e1_w

    Second paragraph of summary:

    Person-to-person spread of COVID-19 appears to occur mainly by respiratory transmission. How easily the virus is transmitted between persons is currently unclear.
     

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Anonymous

    Edit window closed, but I meant to add that neither report said anything about surface transmission.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    My understanding is that with standardized USPS boxes, many surfaces are difficult to transmit. You need to check this before the window closes at your local post office.

  7. “DeBoisblanc said the numbers are unprecedented:

    “We’ve never seen numbers like this, in such a short period of time,” he said. “I mean we’ve seen a year’s worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks.”

    Kacey Hansen, a trauma nurse at the hospital for over three decades, said the volume of suicide attempts has dramatically increased during the lockdowns…”

    Can we end the lockdown now?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/health/bay-area-hospital-sees-unprecedented-spike-suicides-during-lockdowns

    • Replies: @anon
    @Peterike

    Fortunately it is "attempts" not suicides. It is a cry for help and governments may need to look to helping more. But even after ending lockdown, things won't flip back to normal till infections and deaths become insignificant and not noticeable.

    , @Muggles
    @Peterike

    >>“We’ve never seen numbers like this, in such a short period of time,” he said. “I mean we’ve seen a year’s worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks.”

    Kacey Hansen, a trauma nurse at the hospital for over three decades, said the volume of suicide attempts has dramatically increased during the lockdowns…”<<

    While I fully agree it is past time to end involuntary lockdowns and other draconian measures, I have to wonder about this.

    Now I'm against suicides also. Maybe in a few extreme end of life pain scenarios.

    But what kind of country do we live in where being kept inside (in some places, not where I live) drives people to suicide? It's not like we are in prison solitary confinement. There is TV, radio, the Internet, books, DVDs, CDs, cell phones, streaming, balconies or back yards, talking on the phone or even in person to fellow home dwellers. Writing, playing music. Dogs, cats, goldfish, birds. These are things people normally do much of the time.

    There may be severely depressed people but they can get med refills (or those might also drive them to suicide, depending). Online support groups. This lockdown for most, other than in NY/NJ nursing homes, is very soft. Not war, no one is trying to bomb you. You can get food delivered. You might be poorer but most places aren't evicting you. Nothing really to cause taking your own life.

    So either a large number of people are very mentally fragile to begin with, or we have caused a nation of failed humans to live among us. Being isolated isn't good for you, but it isn't a 20 year prison term in Angola either. Are people so self absorbed that the least little change or disruption leads to suicide? How would these delicate flowers survive a real problem: war, natural disaster, etc.?

  8. jb says:

    Welp, the CDC seems to have updated its guidance again! The Times article admirably linked to the archived May 11 page, which had a subhead stating “The virus does not spread easily in other ways”. That subhead was still there as of yesterday. However in the the current version of the page (not yet archived) this is watered down to “The virus may be spread in other ways”. (You can get all the archived versions here).

    In fairness, the very first version of the page, from March 29, states that “It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes, but this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads”. So even then Fomitia was not seen as the main enemy.

  9. @Reg Cæsar
    Center for Disease Control = Correlations? Rodent feces!

    Replies: @ChrisZ, @The Last Real Calvinist

    Your greatest effort yet, Reg. Breathtaking.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @ChrisZ

    Thanks, but I don't make 'em. I just find 'em.

  10. Anon[368] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    One of the things that a lot of people have been doing is hand sanitizing when in public, before/after grocery shopping. (Well, before - if you care to spend the 5c and 10 seconds of time to reduce the chance of someone else dying. Of course... for others not expending this time and expense is not only a god-given right, it could be considered performing a public service!) There is also the reduced face touching having an impact.

    When you remove transmission pathways, the remaining pathways loom large by comparison. This is also why multiple methods in tandem act to reduce R. If you want to reduce aerosolization
    transmission, the methods for that are keep outside, wear masks inside, social distancing, and various methods of detecting it early and isolating.

    One can consider this to be somewhat like insulating a house. I don't think it ever pays to under-insulate a house but a lot of people say that there is not much point insulating under the floor, or that it is a waste beyond a certain level (even though the labor is more expensive than selecting wide enough batts to fill the joist space). If you have already insulated the ceiling and walls, your heating bill will become lower. However now, much more of the heat on a percentage basis will escape via windows and floor. Thus when you finally do get around to insulating the underfloor space, you find that there is a significant difference in the heating bill and also the quality of life improves because there are less cold spots in the house.

    Replies: @Anon, @TomSchmidt, @Mr. Anon

    Sigh… some people are just ill-equipped to deal with the complexities of modern life, and you end up with headcases like this. The cognitive strain is just too much for them. We used to know what to do with such people, but now we let their neuroses rule over us. Until we put the adults back in charge, there is no hope for our civilization.

    • Agree: botazefa
    • Disagree: bomag
    • Replies: @anon
    @Anon

    That boy knows insulation.

    Replies: @TomSchmidt

  11. vhrm says:

    Let’s all not forget that “droplets” is an ambiguous dodge also. That’s the large drops that fall to the ground in a few feet after a cough or sneeze and it’s where we get our holy six feet of separation.
    Sure, if people cough in your face regularly that’s relevant.

    “aerosols” is closer to relevance, but what does that communicate to people? nothing.

    What they’re all trying to not say is “this is an airborne virus. you can get it by just breathing in the same room as someone who has it and is also just breathing or taking”.

    This Wired article from 3/15 reviews the terminology issue https://www.wired.com/story/they-say-coronavirus-isnt-airborne-but-its-definitely-borne-by-air/ (and this was already weeks after things like the Chinese Intercity bus study )

    I’m of two minds on this:
    1) Whether it’s incompetence or mendacity it doesn’t give me confidence that or government organs could deal with an actually dangerous virus. (the 20%+infection rate on NYC is another data point there)

    2) They’ve already overreacted to THIS virus and paniced people into the current state. Telling the truth probably would’ve made it even worse… so maybe it’s better in that sense. Maybe some people at the CDC slow rolled it as the only thing they could do to try to fight the panic. Maybe the Deep State has a Deeper State fighting back 🙂

  12. Are so called “experts” really needed to point out the obvious that sneezing, coughing into your hands and touching a surface is going to contaminate that surface? Wtf? I’ve known this since I was at least five years old! Haven’t we all been scolded by mom to wash our hands after sneezing, coughing into them? Covid 19 is variant of the common cold viruses for Christ’s sake! And the “experts” can’t maintain a consistent policy on this? Something that is beyond common sense? And they were trusted to advise the president on a course of action? The lockdowns? LMFAO!

    • Agree: Forbes
    • Replies: @bomag
    @VinnyVette

    Re-packaging old knowledge gives our "experts" something to do.

  13. @Peterike
    “DeBoisblanc said the numbers are unprecedented:

    "We've never seen numbers like this, in such a short period of time," he said. "I mean we've seen a year's worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks."

    Kacey Hansen, a trauma nurse at the hospital for over three decades, said the volume of suicide attempts has dramatically increased during the lockdowns...”

    Can we end the lockdown now?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/health/bay-area-hospital-sees-unprecedented-spike-suicides-during-lockdowns

    Replies: @anon, @Muggles

    Fortunately it is “attempts” not suicides. It is a cry for help and governments may need to look to helping more. But even after ending lockdown, things won’t flip back to normal till infections and deaths become insignificant and not noticeable.

  14. Pronouncements by the CDC are like April weather – if you don’t like it, just wait awhile.

    Now Fauci is saying a long shutdown could do irreparable damage.

    • Replies: @Bert
    @Mr. Anon

    Fauci will come out of this crisis looking at least as bad as Trump. Double talk and back stabbing don't make an admirable combination. He should have suggested that the U.S. quarantine all incoming air passengers (which would have in effect stopped inbound flights), adopt mandatory masking, house nursing home employees on site, and implement contact tracing. Then he should have either resigned or refused to do press conferences. Instead he showed himself to be a sad little politician.

    Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @dcthrowback

  15. I remember when the CDC was advising people to wash their hands frequently – I think they still are. Of course, this is silly advice. You don’t need to wash your hands frequently – you need to wash your hands when you need to wash your hands. I think there are a lot of people hunkered down in their homes all day just washing their hands every so often, thinking it will keep the COVID at bay. These guidelines just become magic rituals for a lot of people.

    • Replies: @Hail
    @Mr. Anon


    I think there are a lot of people hunkered down in their homes all day just washing their hands every so often, thinking it will keep the COVID at bay. These guidelines just become magic rituals for a lot of people.
     
    See also:

    Is Corona a religious cult? An anthropological study.
  16. @Prester John
    Not much "control" coming from the "Center for Disease Control", so to paraphrase Yeats --it looks like the "center" didn't hold.

    Exactly what do these people do anyway?

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @BenKenobi, @TomSchmidt, @Hail, @Alfa158, @Forbes

    Exactly what do these people do anyway?

    The CDC plans for a pandemic. And when one finally arrives, it issues plans to deal with its lack of planning.

  17. @Anon
    @Anonymous

    Sigh... some people are just ill-equipped to deal with the complexities of modern life, and you end up with headcases like this. The cognitive strain is just too much for them. We used to know what to do with such people, but now we let their neuroses rule over us. Until we put the adults back in charge, there is no hope for our civilization.

    Replies: @anon

    That boy knows insulation.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    @anon

    That boy knows the insulation recommendations of 1965, not updated to current standards. It's why we went to hand-washing: it was the best possible way to contain SARS, another Coronavirus. We allegedly didn't know when the OCD-handwashers took over that face masks were the best strategy, despite Taiwan, Hong Kong and Korea.

    All that having been said, washing your hands a bit more is likely health positive.

  18. Anonymous[146] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Assuming it’s unaltered, the CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report initially on February 7, and through subsequent follow-ups, identified “2019-nCov” as being transmitted primarily through the air.

    Initial report, February 7:

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6905e1.htm?s_cid=mm6905e1_w

    Second paragraph of summary:

    Person-to-person spread is evident; however, how easily the virus is transmitted between persons is currently unclear. 2019-nCoV is similar to coronaviruses that cause MERS and SARS, which are transmitted mainly by respiratory droplets.
     
    February 24:

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6908e1.htm?s_cid=mm6908e1_w

    Second paragraph of summary:

    Person-to-person spread of COVID-19 appears to occur mainly by respiratory transmission. How easily the virus is transmitted between persons is currently unclear.
     

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @Anonymous

    2019-nCoV is similar to coronaviruses that cause MERS and SARS, which are transmitted mainly by respiratory droplets.

    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces and then transferred by the hands onto mouths or into noses.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Anonymous


    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces
     
    The cited CDC reports didn’t specify that process, nor make any claims about fomites transmission. “Respiratory droplets” can fall to surfaces or remain suspended in air.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Alarmist, @botazefa

    , @AnotherDad
    @Anonymous


    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces and then transferred by the hands onto mouths or into noses.
     
    Neatly explains both the CDC's 6' rule and don't-need-masks policy.

    You need that 6' so the droplets from the people nearby have time to get onto surfaces by the time you pass by.

    (Seriously dude, did you invest in a copper mine or something?)

    Replies: @Anonymous

  19. @Prester John
    Not much "control" coming from the "Center for Disease Control", so to paraphrase Yeats --it looks like the "center" didn't hold.

    Exactly what do these people do anyway?

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @BenKenobi, @TomSchmidt, @Hail, @Alfa158, @Forbes

  20. @Anonymous
    @Jenner Ickham Errican


    2019-nCoV is similar to coronaviruses that cause MERS and SARS, which are transmitted mainly by respiratory droplets.
     
    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces and then transferred by the hands onto mouths or into noses.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @AnotherDad

    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces

    The cited CDC reports didn’t specify that process, nor make any claims about fomites transmission. “Respiratory droplets” can fall to surfaces or remain suspended in air.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jenner Ickham Errican


    “Respiratory droplets” can fall to surfaces or remain suspended in air.
     
    They don’t remain suspended in air very easily. And it is even more difficult, because of their weight, for them to be inhaled up into the nostril, much less through the air passages and down into the lungs.
    , @The Alarmist
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    There are droplets containing particles, and there are aerosolised particles. Droplets tend to drop, aerosols remain suspended for some period of time and travel some distance in air flow. What is still not clear at this point is the length of time a particle can remain suspended in open air and still be active.

    Replies: @botazefa

    , @botazefa
    @Jenner Ickham Errican


    The cited CDC reports didn’t specify that process, nor make any claims about fomites transmission. “Respiratory droplets” can fall to surfaces or remain suspended in air.
     
    Jenner - yes, but the droplets don't remain suspended in the air for long. The droplets rain out due to gravity pretty quickly. This is very important.

    Maybe I'm splitting hairs or misunderstanding you?
  21. Bert says:
    @Mr. Anon
    Pronouncements by the CDC are like April weather - if you don't like it, just wait awhile.

    Now Fauci is saying a long shutdown could do irreparable damage.

    Replies: @Bert

    Fauci will come out of this crisis looking at least as bad as Trump. Double talk and back stabbing don’t make an admirable combination. He should have suggested that the U.S. quarantine all incoming air passengers (which would have in effect stopped inbound flights), adopt mandatory masking, house nursing home employees on site, and implement contact tracing. Then he should have either resigned or refused to do press conferences. Instead he showed himself to be a sad little politician.

    • Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    @Bert

    "He should have suggested that the U.S. quarantine all incoming air passengers (which would have in effect stopped inbound flights), adopt mandatory masking, house nursing home employees on site, and implement contact tracing. Then he should" blah blah loggorhea

    Word count: ~ 150.

    'Should' count: 2.

    Conclusion: solipsist boomerd.

    Get Out Live Life!

    , @dcthrowback
    @Bert

    *bureaucrat

    I think people have given wide berth to folks in charge to see what works best. Hint: Drumpf will not coming out of this looking the worst.

  22. @Reg Cæsar
    Center for Disease Control = Correlations? Rodent feces!

    Replies: @ChrisZ, @The Last Real Calvinist

    Spectacular.

  23. @VinnyVette
    Are so called "experts" really needed to point out the obvious that sneezing, coughing into your hands and touching a surface is going to contaminate that surface? Wtf? I've known this since I was at least five years old! Haven't we all been scolded by mom to wash our hands after sneezing, coughing into them? Covid 19 is variant of the common cold viruses for Christ's sake! And the "experts" can't maintain a consistent policy on this? Something that is beyond common sense? And they were trusted to advise the president on a course of action? The lockdowns? LMFAO!

    Replies: @bomag

    Re-packaging old knowledge gives our “experts” something to do.

  24. @Bert
    @Mr. Anon

    Fauci will come out of this crisis looking at least as bad as Trump. Double talk and back stabbing don't make an admirable combination. He should have suggested that the U.S. quarantine all incoming air passengers (which would have in effect stopped inbound flights), adopt mandatory masking, house nursing home employees on site, and implement contact tracing. Then he should have either resigned or refused to do press conferences. Instead he showed himself to be a sad little politician.

    Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @dcthrowback

    “He should have suggested that the U.S. quarantine all incoming air passengers (which would have in effect stopped inbound flights), adopt mandatory masking, house nursing home employees on site, and implement contact tracing. Then he should” blah blah loggorhea

    Word count: ~ 150.

    ‘Should’ count: 2.

    Conclusion: solipsist boomerd.

    Get Out Live Life!

  25. @Prester John
    Not much "control" coming from the "Center for Disease Control", so to paraphrase Yeats --it looks like the "center" didn't hold.

    Exactly what do these people do anyway?

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @BenKenobi, @TomSchmidt, @Hail, @Alfa158, @Forbes

    Exactly what do these people do anyway?

    The same might be asked about the intelligence community, which seems to have missed the biggest threat to the USA, and of course the defense budget. You could probably throw the FBI into the mix, too.

    We need to dig out from under the debt (not that we will), and this years debtpalooza could be paid off in less than five years if we cut all these activities to 20% of current cost.

  26. @Anonymous
    One of the things that a lot of people have been doing is hand sanitizing when in public, before/after grocery shopping. (Well, before - if you care to spend the 5c and 10 seconds of time to reduce the chance of someone else dying. Of course... for others not expending this time and expense is not only a god-given right, it could be considered performing a public service!) There is also the reduced face touching having an impact.

    When you remove transmission pathways, the remaining pathways loom large by comparison. This is also why multiple methods in tandem act to reduce R. If you want to reduce aerosolization
    transmission, the methods for that are keep outside, wear masks inside, social distancing, and various methods of detecting it early and isolating.

    One can consider this to be somewhat like insulating a house. I don't think it ever pays to under-insulate a house but a lot of people say that there is not much point insulating under the floor, or that it is a waste beyond a certain level (even though the labor is more expensive than selecting wide enough batts to fill the joist space). If you have already insulated the ceiling and walls, your heating bill will become lower. However now, much more of the heat on a percentage basis will escape via windows and floor. Thus when you finally do get around to insulating the underfloor space, you find that there is a significant difference in the heating bill and also the quality of life improves because there are less cold spots in the house.

    Replies: @Anon, @TomSchmidt, @Mr. Anon

    even though the labor is more expensive than selecting wide enough batts to fill the joist space

    No serious insulation person EVER recommends batts. You have to stop the airflow, and batts don’t do that. Spray foam is the stuff.

  27. @anon
    @Anon

    That boy knows insulation.

    Replies: @TomSchmidt

    That boy knows the insulation recommendations of 1965, not updated to current standards. It’s why we went to hand-washing: it was the best possible way to contain SARS, another Coronavirus. We allegedly didn’t know when the OCD-handwashers took over that face masks were the best strategy, despite Taiwan, Hong Kong and Korea.

    All that having been said, washing your hands a bit more is likely health positive.

  28. @Prester John
    Not much "control" coming from the "Center for Disease Control", so to paraphrase Yeats --it looks like the "center" didn't hold.

    Exactly what do these people do anyway?

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @BenKenobi, @TomSchmidt, @Hail, @Alfa158, @Forbes

    Artist’s rendition of the Corona-Panic and the CDC’s role:

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
  29. Anonymous[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Anonymous


    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces
     
    The cited CDC reports didn’t specify that process, nor make any claims about fomites transmission. “Respiratory droplets” can fall to surfaces or remain suspended in air.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Alarmist, @botazefa

    “Respiratory droplets” can fall to surfaces or remain suspended in air.

    They don’t remain suspended in air very easily. And it is even more difficult, because of their weight, for them to be inhaled up into the nostril, much less through the air passages and down into the lungs.

    • Agree: botazefa
  30. Hail says: • Website
    @Mr. Anon
    I remember when the CDC was advising people to wash their hands frequently - I think they still are. Of course, this is silly advice. You don't need to wash your hands frequently - you need to wash your hands when you need to wash your hands. I think there are a lot of people hunkered down in their homes all day just washing their hands every so often, thinking it will keep the COVID at bay. These guidelines just become magic rituals for a lot of people.

    Replies: @Hail

    I think there are a lot of people hunkered down in their homes all day just washing their hands every so often, thinking it will keep the COVID at bay. These guidelines just become magic rituals for a lot of people.

    See also:

    Is Corona a religious cult? An anthropological study.

  31. @allensheep
    I never understood why people would think it would be easier to get a *respiratory* disease by touching things. Isn't it obvious that it's easier to get a lung disease through your lungs?

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Mr. Anon, @Forbes

    I never understood why people would think it would be easier to get a *respiratory* disease by touching things. Isn’t it obvious that it’s easier to get a lung disease through your lungs?

    Allen, your IQ has disqualified you for work at the CDC. Sorry.

  32. @Prester John
    Not much "control" coming from the "Center for Disease Control", so to paraphrase Yeats --it looks like the "center" didn't hold.

    Exactly what do these people do anyway?

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @BenKenobi, @TomSchmidt, @Hail, @Alfa158, @Forbes

    See John Derbyshire and his “get a government job!”
    “What do these people do anyway is” : they hold nice jobs with inflated titles, that pay better salaries and benefits than equivalent private sector jobs, generous pensions with full health care, the opportunity to double dip by consulting with your old agency after retiring, are affirmative action jobs many of them could not even hold in for-profit companies, and are almost impossible to be fired or laid off from unless you violate PC codes.
    What they might be doing while at those jobs is secondary to the above.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  33. “The Respiratory Droplets” would be a good name for a band. Could even drop “the”, really.

  34. @Anonymous
    One of the things that a lot of people have been doing is hand sanitizing when in public, before/after grocery shopping. (Well, before - if you care to spend the 5c and 10 seconds of time to reduce the chance of someone else dying. Of course... for others not expending this time and expense is not only a god-given right, it could be considered performing a public service!) There is also the reduced face touching having an impact.

    When you remove transmission pathways, the remaining pathways loom large by comparison. This is also why multiple methods in tandem act to reduce R. If you want to reduce aerosolization
    transmission, the methods for that are keep outside, wear masks inside, social distancing, and various methods of detecting it early and isolating.

    One can consider this to be somewhat like insulating a house. I don't think it ever pays to under-insulate a house but a lot of people say that there is not much point insulating under the floor, or that it is a waste beyond a certain level (even though the labor is more expensive than selecting wide enough batts to fill the joist space). If you have already insulated the ceiling and walls, your heating bill will become lower. However now, much more of the heat on a percentage basis will escape via windows and floor. Thus when you finally do get around to insulating the underfloor space, you find that there is a significant difference in the heating bill and also the quality of life improves because there are less cold spots in the house.

    Replies: @Anon, @TomSchmidt, @Mr. Anon

    One of the things that a lot of people have been doing is hand sanitizing when in public, before/after grocery shopping. (Well, before – if you care to spend the 5c and 10 seconds of time to reduce the chance of someone else dying. Of course… for others not expending this time and expense is not only a god-given right, it could be considered performing a public service!)

    Disinfecting the crap out of everything all the time is just going to result in the evolution of disinfectant-resistant microbes. Just washing with soap and water is good enough for most occasions. Disinfectants should be reserved for those cases where a thorough sterilization needs to be done and can actually be done.

    There was a TV commercial for disinfectant wipes that show some Mom wiping down a counter-top after Baby spills food on it. It’s food! You were feeding it to your kid! How bad can it be? It doesn’t instantly turn into a bio-hazard the moment it touches the formica.

    • Replies: @botazefa
    @Mr. Anon


    Disinfecting the crap out of everything all the time is just going to result in the evolution of disinfectant-resistant microbes
     
    With respect, I cal BS on this one. The gold standard disinfectant, heat, ain't going anywhere.

    I agree with you that soap and water is enough.

    Antibacterial soaps should be outlawed. Maybe that's what you were thinking when you referred to disinfectants?

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  35. @Bert
    @Mr. Anon

    Fauci will come out of this crisis looking at least as bad as Trump. Double talk and back stabbing don't make an admirable combination. He should have suggested that the U.S. quarantine all incoming air passengers (which would have in effect stopped inbound flights), adopt mandatory masking, house nursing home employees on site, and implement contact tracing. Then he should have either resigned or refused to do press conferences. Instead he showed himself to be a sad little politician.

    Replies: @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @dcthrowback

    *bureaucrat

    I think people have given wide berth to folks in charge to see what works best. Hint: Drumpf will not coming out of this looking the worst.

  36. @allensheep
    I never understood why people would think it would be easier to get a *respiratory* disease by touching things. Isn't it obvious that it's easier to get a lung disease through your lungs?

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Mr. Anon, @Forbes

    I never understood why people would think it would be easier to get a *respiratory* disease by touching things. Isn’t it obvious that it’s easier to get a lung disease through your lungs?

    I never understood the Trump administration’s excuse that they didn’t know the disease could be spread person-to-person because the Chinese lied about it. It was an obvious lie. What infectious respiratory disease is not spread person-to-person?

  37. @Anonymous
    @Jenner Ickham Errican


    2019-nCoV is similar to coronaviruses that cause MERS and SARS, which are transmitted mainly by respiratory droplets.
     
    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces and then transferred by the hands onto mouths or into noses.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @AnotherDad

    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces and then transferred by the hands onto mouths or into noses.

    Neatly explains both the CDC’s 6′ rule and don’t-need-masks policy.

    You need that 6′ so the droplets from the people nearby have time to get onto surfaces by the time you pass by.

    (Seriously dude, did you invest in a copper mine or something?)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @AnotherDad


    Neatly explains both the CDC’s 6′ rule and don’t-need-masks policy.

    You need that 6′ so the droplets from the people nearby have time to get onto surfaces by the time you pass by.

    (Seriously dude, did you invest in a copper mine or something?)
     
    When I have heard Fauci talk about this, he has seemed to be referring to a projectile situation. In other words, droplets getting on people (perhaps hitting mucus membranes like eyes or mouths) or on other surfaces, but not being breathed in.
  38. Saw a man in Home Depot this morning wearing a mask that said “TRUMP 2020.”

    Too bad we live in a permanently blue state.

  39. Once in a blue moon, Garfield is actually good. Probably sheer coincidence, but last Sunday’s pretty much nails the situation before us:

    https://d1ejxu6vysztl5.cloudfront.net/comics/garfield/2020/2020-05-17.gif?v=1.1

  40. @ChrisZ
    @Reg Cæsar

    Your greatest effort yet, Reg. Breathtaking.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Thanks, but I don’t make ’em. I just find ’em.

  41. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Anonymous


    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces
     
    The cited CDC reports didn’t specify that process, nor make any claims about fomites transmission. “Respiratory droplets” can fall to surfaces or remain suspended in air.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Alarmist, @botazefa

    There are droplets containing particles, and there are aerosolised particles. Droplets tend to drop, aerosols remain suspended for some period of time and travel some distance in air flow. What is still not clear at this point is the length of time a particle can remain suspended in open air and still be active.

    • Replies: @botazefa
    @The Alarmist


    What is still not clear at this point is the length of time a particle can remain suspended in open air and still be active.
     
    What's not clear to me is whether or not a single virus can become airborne by itself.

    Is a sneeze or cough capable of launching a cloud of viruses just floating about, unattached and totally free? Does it just float about until someone inhales it? If so, what mask could trap something so tiny?

    Replies: @The Alarmist

  42. @Prester John
    Not much "control" coming from the "Center for Disease Control", so to paraphrase Yeats --it looks like the "center" didn't hold.

    Exactly what do these people do anyway?

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @BenKenobi, @TomSchmidt, @Hail, @Alfa158, @Forbes

    Like any government employment–a jobs scheme, or I suppose, it’s really just a paycheck scheme as no actual job is performed, apparently.

  43. @allensheep
    I never understood why people would think it would be easier to get a *respiratory* disease by touching things. Isn't it obvious that it's easier to get a lung disease through your lungs?

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Mr. Anon, @Forbes

    The “wash your hands and don’t touch your face” admonishment for a respiratory infection was mind boggling.

    Now you have people walking around in public wearing masks as if the ambient air carries a sufficient viral load to cause infection. If that were true, we’d all have been infected by now.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Forbes

    The “wash your hands and don’t touch your face” admonishment for a respiratory infection was mind boggling.

    Why was it mind boggling?

    Now you have people walking around in public wearing masks as if the ambient air carries a sufficient viral load to cause infection.

    Is that the only reason people are masked up? How do you know this?

    , @Anonymous
    @Forbes


    The “wash your hands and don’t touch your face” admonishment for a respiratory infection was mind boggling.

    Now you have people walking around in public wearing masks as if the ambient air carries a sufficient viral load to cause infection. If that were true, we’d all have been infected by now.
     
    So you’re saying it isn’t spread through contact and isn’t spread by breathing it in. How is it spread then?
  44. @Peterike
    “DeBoisblanc said the numbers are unprecedented:

    "We've never seen numbers like this, in such a short period of time," he said. "I mean we've seen a year's worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks."

    Kacey Hansen, a trauma nurse at the hospital for over three decades, said the volume of suicide attempts has dramatically increased during the lockdowns...”

    Can we end the lockdown now?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/health/bay-area-hospital-sees-unprecedented-spike-suicides-during-lockdowns

    Replies: @anon, @Muggles

    >>“We’ve never seen numbers like this, in such a short period of time,” he said. “I mean we’ve seen a year’s worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks.”

    Kacey Hansen, a trauma nurse at the hospital for over three decades, said the volume of suicide attempts has dramatically increased during the lockdowns…”<<

    While I fully agree it is past time to end involuntary lockdowns and other draconian measures, I have to wonder about this.

    Now I'm against suicides also. Maybe in a few extreme end of life pain scenarios.

    But what kind of country do we live in where being kept inside (in some places, not where I live) drives people to suicide? It's not like we are in prison solitary confinement. There is TV, radio, the Internet, books, DVDs, CDs, cell phones, streaming, balconies or back yards, talking on the phone or even in person to fellow home dwellers. Writing, playing music. Dogs, cats, goldfish, birds. These are things people normally do much of the time.

    There may be severely depressed people but they can get med refills (or those might also drive them to suicide, depending). Online support groups. This lockdown for most, other than in NY/NJ nursing homes, is very soft. Not war, no one is trying to bomb you. You can get food delivered. You might be poorer but most places aren't evicting you. Nothing really to cause taking your own life.

    So either a large number of people are very mentally fragile to begin with, or we have caused a nation of failed humans to live among us. Being isolated isn't good for you, but it isn't a 20 year prison term in Angola either. Are people so self absorbed that the least little change or disruption leads to suicide? How would these delicate flowers survive a real problem: war, natural disaster, etc.?

  45. anon[154] • Disclaimer says:
    @Forbes
    @allensheep

    The "wash your hands and don't touch your face" admonishment for a respiratory infection was mind boggling.

    Now you have people walking around in public wearing masks as if the ambient air carries a sufficient viral load to cause infection. If that were true, we'd all have been infected by now.

    Replies: @anon, @Anonymous

    The “wash your hands and don’t touch your face” admonishment for a respiratory infection was mind boggling.

    Why was it mind boggling?

    Now you have people walking around in public wearing masks as if the ambient air carries a sufficient viral load to cause infection.

    Is that the only reason people are masked up? How do you know this?

  46. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @Forbes
    @allensheep

    The "wash your hands and don't touch your face" admonishment for a respiratory infection was mind boggling.

    Now you have people walking around in public wearing masks as if the ambient air carries a sufficient viral load to cause infection. If that were true, we'd all have been infected by now.

    Replies: @anon, @Anonymous

    The “wash your hands and don’t touch your face” admonishment for a respiratory infection was mind boggling.

    Now you have people walking around in public wearing masks as if the ambient air carries a sufficient viral load to cause infection. If that were true, we’d all have been infected by now.

    So you’re saying it isn’t spread through contact and isn’t spread by breathing it in. How is it spread then?

  47. Anonymous[390] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad
    @Anonymous


    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces and then transferred by the hands onto mouths or into noses.
     
    Neatly explains both the CDC's 6' rule and don't-need-masks policy.

    You need that 6' so the droplets from the people nearby have time to get onto surfaces by the time you pass by.

    (Seriously dude, did you invest in a copper mine or something?)

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Neatly explains both the CDC’s 6′ rule and don’t-need-masks policy.

    You need that 6′ so the droplets from the people nearby have time to get onto surfaces by the time you pass by.

    (Seriously dude, did you invest in a copper mine or something?)

    When I have heard Fauci talk about this, he has seemed to be referring to a projectile situation. In other words, droplets getting on people (perhaps hitting mucus membranes like eyes or mouths) or on other surfaces, but not being breathed in.

  48. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Anonymous


    Transmitted by respiratory droplets onto surfaces
     
    The cited CDC reports didn’t specify that process, nor make any claims about fomites transmission. “Respiratory droplets” can fall to surfaces or remain suspended in air.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @The Alarmist, @botazefa

    The cited CDC reports didn’t specify that process, nor make any claims about fomites transmission. “Respiratory droplets” can fall to surfaces or remain suspended in air.

    Jenner – yes, but the droplets don’t remain suspended in the air for long. The droplets rain out due to gravity pretty quickly. This is very important.

    Maybe I’m splitting hairs or misunderstanding you?

  49. @Mr. Anon
    @Anonymous


    One of the things that a lot of people have been doing is hand sanitizing when in public, before/after grocery shopping. (Well, before – if you care to spend the 5c and 10 seconds of time to reduce the chance of someone else dying. Of course… for others not expending this time and expense is not only a god-given right, it could be considered performing a public service!)
     
    Disinfecting the crap out of everything all the time is just going to result in the evolution of disinfectant-resistant microbes. Just washing with soap and water is good enough for most occasions. Disinfectants should be reserved for those cases where a thorough sterilization needs to be done and can actually be done.

    There was a TV commercial for disinfectant wipes that show some Mom wiping down a counter-top after Baby spills food on it. It's food! You were feeding it to your kid! How bad can it be? It doesn't instantly turn into a bio-hazard the moment it touches the formica.

    Replies: @botazefa

    Disinfecting the crap out of everything all the time is just going to result in the evolution of disinfectant-resistant microbes

    With respect, I cal BS on this one. The gold standard disinfectant, heat, ain’t going anywhere.

    I agree with you that soap and water is enough.

    Antibacterial soaps should be outlawed. Maybe that’s what you were thinking when you referred to disinfectants?

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @botazefa


    With respect, I cal BS on this one. The gold standard disinfectant, heat, ain’t going anywhere.
     
    With time, one would even expect pathogens to evolve that are more resistant to heat. I've often wondered if hospitals aren't eventually going to breed bleach-resistant microbes. But yes, there are physical limits; of course enough exposure to heat, UV, or harsh chemicals is always going to break-down RNA or DNA molecules.

    Antibacterial soaps should be outlawed. Maybe that’s what you were thinking when you referred to disinfectants?
     
    I was. You can't hardly buy liquid soap anymore that isn't "anti-bacterial". Maybe some of the organic soaps aren't. Then again, now, you can't hardly buy liquid soap at all.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @vhrm

  50. @The Alarmist
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    There are droplets containing particles, and there are aerosolised particles. Droplets tend to drop, aerosols remain suspended for some period of time and travel some distance in air flow. What is still not clear at this point is the length of time a particle can remain suspended in open air and still be active.

    Replies: @botazefa

    What is still not clear at this point is the length of time a particle can remain suspended in open air and still be active.

    What’s not clear to me is whether or not a single virus can become airborne by itself.

    Is a sneeze or cough capable of launching a cloud of viruses just floating about, unattached and totally free? Does it just float about until someone inhales it? If so, what mask could trap something so tiny?

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @botazefa


    Is a sneeze or cough capable of launching a cloud of viruses just floating about, unattached and totally free? Does it just float about until someone inhales it? If so, what mask could trap something so tiny?
     
    A sneeze, cough, loud talking, laughing, singing, etc., even just breathing, and also procedures like intubation, release respiratory droplets of various sizes, and these may carry infectious pathogens. Larger droplets (>100 µm) fall out of the air relatively quickly, while smaller fall out relatively slowly. The smaller particles may dry before reaching the surface, becoming aerosolised particles, so yes, you then have virus particles blowing freely in the wind. Intubation is very much a way to produce huge amounts of aerosolised particles, which might explain why so many poorly equipped medical providers in the UK and Italy contracted the disease and doed, while so few better equipped medical providers in the US have not yet been as heavily affected.

    However, once the particle is not wrapped in mucous or saliva of the droplet, it loses a large part of the environmental protection that keeps it infectious longer. I read a blurb that the half-life of COVID-19 was on the order 1.1 hours. Outdoors in sunlight, I imagine it would be far shorter. In a confined hospital environment where things like coughing, sneezing, and procedures like intubation flood the air, you'd probably want the best PPE you can get your hands on.

    The other piece of the puzzle is how many still-infectious virus particles it will take to overwhelm your immune system. Again, when outdoors, at any time you might be hit with only a few active particles that can be dealt with by your innate immunity, while having some infected asshole sneeze in your face will likely be more than enough to overwhelm your immune system even outdoors.

    COVID-19 particles are estimated to be 0.125 µm in size. The NIOSH N95 mask standard requires filtration to be at least 95% of particles sized at 0.3 µm, which is the weakest size of the performance curve for a mask of this specification, so a N95 mask will likely give something more than 95% filtration, assuming it is used correctly. Oddly enough, at smaller sizes, the mask's fibres are like a maze that causes the particles to bounce around the fibres and other particles randomly, essentially leaving the particles trapped in the filter through diffusion.

  51. @botazefa
    @Mr. Anon


    Disinfecting the crap out of everything all the time is just going to result in the evolution of disinfectant-resistant microbes
     
    With respect, I cal BS on this one. The gold standard disinfectant, heat, ain't going anywhere.

    I agree with you that soap and water is enough.

    Antibacterial soaps should be outlawed. Maybe that's what you were thinking when you referred to disinfectants?

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    With respect, I cal BS on this one. The gold standard disinfectant, heat, ain’t going anywhere.

    With time, one would even expect pathogens to evolve that are more resistant to heat. I’ve often wondered if hospitals aren’t eventually going to breed bleach-resistant microbes. But yes, there are physical limits; of course enough exposure to heat, UV, or harsh chemicals is always going to break-down RNA or DNA molecules.

    Antibacterial soaps should be outlawed. Maybe that’s what you were thinking when you referred to disinfectants?

    I was. You can’t hardly buy liquid soap anymore that isn’t “anti-bacterial”. Maybe some of the organic soaps aren’t. Then again, now, you can’t hardly buy liquid soap at all.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @Mr. Anon

    " Then again, now, you can’t hardly buy liquid soap at all."

    All the large bottle refills seem to have disappeared from Walgreens for over two months in the store near me, but it is amazing to me that I haven't see a spray can of Lysol disinfectant since March 20.

    Are people hoarding Lysol for some reason?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @vhrm
    @Mr. Anon


    I was. You can’t hardly buy liquid soap anymore that isn’t “anti-bacterial”. Maybe some of the organic soaps aren’t. Then again, now, you can’t hardly buy liquid soap at all.
     
    That was true for a while, but in the US they did ban antibacterial soap just a few years ago.
    (https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/us-outlaw-antibacterial-soaps)

    I just noticed a month ago that Colgate Total toothpaste also got rid of triclosan. (i used it for most of the 2000s but dropped it sometime in the 2010s because of triclosan. i was surprised to see it'd changed)
  52. @botazefa
    @The Alarmist


    What is still not clear at this point is the length of time a particle can remain suspended in open air and still be active.
     
    What's not clear to me is whether or not a single virus can become airborne by itself.

    Is a sneeze or cough capable of launching a cloud of viruses just floating about, unattached and totally free? Does it just float about until someone inhales it? If so, what mask could trap something so tiny?

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    Is a sneeze or cough capable of launching a cloud of viruses just floating about, unattached and totally free? Does it just float about until someone inhales it? If so, what mask could trap something so tiny?

    A sneeze, cough, loud talking, laughing, singing, etc., even just breathing, and also procedures like intubation, release respiratory droplets of various sizes, and these may carry infectious pathogens. Larger droplets (>100 µm) fall out of the air relatively quickly, while smaller fall out relatively slowly. The smaller particles may dry before reaching the surface, becoming aerosolised particles, so yes, you then have virus particles blowing freely in the wind. Intubation is very much a way to produce huge amounts of aerosolised particles, which might explain why so many poorly equipped medical providers in the UK and Italy contracted the disease and doed, while so few better equipped medical providers in the US have not yet been as heavily affected.

    However, once the particle is not wrapped in mucous or saliva of the droplet, it loses a large part of the environmental protection that keeps it infectious longer. I read a blurb that the half-life of COVID-19 was on the order 1.1 hours. Outdoors in sunlight, I imagine it would be far shorter. In a confined hospital environment where things like coughing, sneezing, and procedures like intubation flood the air, you’d probably want the best PPE you can get your hands on.

    The other piece of the puzzle is how many still-infectious virus particles it will take to overwhelm your immune system. Again, when outdoors, at any time you might be hit with only a few active particles that can be dealt with by your innate immunity, while having some infected asshole sneeze in your face will likely be more than enough to overwhelm your immune system even outdoors.

    COVID-19 particles are estimated to be 0.125 µm in size. The NIOSH N95 mask standard requires filtration to be at least 95% of particles sized at 0.3 µm, which is the weakest size of the performance curve for a mask of this specification, so a N95 mask will likely give something more than 95% filtration, assuming it is used correctly. Oddly enough, at smaller sizes, the mask’s fibres are like a maze that causes the particles to bounce around the fibres and other particles randomly, essentially leaving the particles trapped in the filter through diffusion.

  53. @Mr. Anon
    @botazefa


    With respect, I cal BS on this one. The gold standard disinfectant, heat, ain’t going anywhere.
     
    With time, one would even expect pathogens to evolve that are more resistant to heat. I've often wondered if hospitals aren't eventually going to breed bleach-resistant microbes. But yes, there are physical limits; of course enough exposure to heat, UV, or harsh chemicals is always going to break-down RNA or DNA molecules.

    Antibacterial soaps should be outlawed. Maybe that’s what you were thinking when you referred to disinfectants?
     
    I was. You can't hardly buy liquid soap anymore that isn't "anti-bacterial". Maybe some of the organic soaps aren't. Then again, now, you can't hardly buy liquid soap at all.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @vhrm

    ” Then again, now, you can’t hardly buy liquid soap at all.”

    All the large bottle refills seem to have disappeared from Walgreens for over two months in the store near me, but it is amazing to me that I haven’t see a spray can of Lysol disinfectant since March 20.

    Are people hoarding Lysol for some reason?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Joe Stalin


    All the large bottle refills seem to have disappeared from Walgreens for over two months in the store near me, but it is amazing to me that I haven’t see a spray can of Lysol disinfectant since March 20.

    Are people hoarding Lysol for some reason?
     
    Apparently, but the office and industrial supply places still have lots. I'm glad I started an account with one of the famous ones some time ago. I order something about once every eight or nine or ten months to keep the account current. My last order was for their coffee, which is okay, and a case of toilet paper. I gave half away and have a half case sitting here just in case the supply gets really low.

    I'm not a big fan of multi level marketing, but Amway and their doppelganger Shaklee had a pretty good cleaner at one time that substituted for Lysol well. I also use a scosh of Pine-Sol or the generic imitations in my laundry loads and it seems to help a lot.
  54. vhrm says:
    @Mr. Anon
    @botazefa


    With respect, I cal BS on this one. The gold standard disinfectant, heat, ain’t going anywhere.
     
    With time, one would even expect pathogens to evolve that are more resistant to heat. I've often wondered if hospitals aren't eventually going to breed bleach-resistant microbes. But yes, there are physical limits; of course enough exposure to heat, UV, or harsh chemicals is always going to break-down RNA or DNA molecules.

    Antibacterial soaps should be outlawed. Maybe that’s what you were thinking when you referred to disinfectants?
     
    I was. You can't hardly buy liquid soap anymore that isn't "anti-bacterial". Maybe some of the organic soaps aren't. Then again, now, you can't hardly buy liquid soap at all.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @vhrm

    I was. You can’t hardly buy liquid soap anymore that isn’t “anti-bacterial”. Maybe some of the organic soaps aren’t. Then again, now, you can’t hardly buy liquid soap at all.

    That was true for a while, but in the US they did ban antibacterial soap just a few years ago.
    (https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/us-outlaw-antibacterial-soaps)

    I just noticed a month ago that Colgate Total toothpaste also got rid of triclosan. (i used it for most of the 2000s but dropped it sometime in the 2010s because of triclosan. i was surprised to see it’d changed)

  55. You don’t say. I’m glad to hear it. Although I could have sworn I saw bottles of liquid soap emblazoned with “antibacterial” just a few months ago. Must be my OGS flaring up (Old Guy Syndrome). Thanks for the news.

  56. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Stalin
    @Mr. Anon

    " Then again, now, you can’t hardly buy liquid soap at all."

    All the large bottle refills seem to have disappeared from Walgreens for over two months in the store near me, but it is amazing to me that I haven't see a spray can of Lysol disinfectant since March 20.

    Are people hoarding Lysol for some reason?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    All the large bottle refills seem to have disappeared from Walgreens for over two months in the store near me, but it is amazing to me that I haven’t see a spray can of Lysol disinfectant since March 20.

    Are people hoarding Lysol for some reason?

    Apparently, but the office and industrial supply places still have lots. I’m glad I started an account with one of the famous ones some time ago. I order something about once every eight or nine or ten months to keep the account current. My last order was for their coffee, which is okay, and a case of toilet paper. I gave half away and have a half case sitting here just in case the supply gets really low.

    I’m not a big fan of multi level marketing, but Amway and their doppelganger Shaklee had a pretty good cleaner at one time that substituted for Lysol well. I also use a scosh of Pine-Sol or the generic imitations in my laundry loads and it seems to help a lot.

  57. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Edit window closed, but I meant to add that neither report said anything about surface transmission.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    My understanding is that with standardized USPS boxes, many surfaces are difficult to transmit. You need to check this before the window closes at your local post office.

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