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From the New York Times news section, an article in which it gradually becomes apparent that the only value conceivable in 2020 is: Would this policy benefit blacks more than whites? If so, good.

The Elderly vs. Essential Workers: Who Should Get the Coronavirus Vaccine First?

The C.D.C. will soon decide which group to recommend next, and the debate over the trade-offs is growing heated. Ultimately, states will determine whom to include.

By Abby Goodnough and Jan Hoffman
Dec. 5, 2020

With the coronavirus pandemic surging and initial vaccine supplies limited, the United States faces a hard choice: Should the country’s immunization program focus in the early months on the elderly and people with serious medical conditions, who are dying of the virus at the highest rates, or on essential workers, an expansive category encompassing Americans who have borne the greatest risk of infection?

Health care workers and the frailest of the elderly — residents of long-term-care facilities — will almost certainly get the first shots, under guidelines the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued on Thursday. But with vaccination expected to start this month, the debate among federal and state health officials about who goes next, and lobbying from outside groups to be included, is growing more urgent.

It’s a question increasingly guided by concerns over the inequities laid bare by the pandemic, from disproportionately high rates of infection and death among poor people and people of color to disparate access to testing, child care and technology for online schooling. …

Ultimately, the choice comes down to whether preventing death or curbing the spread of the virus and returning to some semblance of normalcy is the highest priority. “If your goal is to maximize the preservation of human life, then you would bias the vaccine toward older Americans,” Dr. Scott Gottlieb, the former Food and Drug Administration commissioner, said recently. “If your goal is to reduce the rate of infection, then you would prioritize essential workers. So it depends what impact you’re trying to achieve.”

One problem is that while we know the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines reduce cases of infection by 95% and severe cases by about the same or more, we don’t yet know how much the vaccines reduce infectiousness.

The trade-off between the two is muddied by the fact that the definition of “essential workers” used by the C.D.C. comprises nearly 70 percent of the American work force, sweeping in not just grocery store clerks and emergency responders, but tugboat operators, exterminators and nuclear energy workers. Some labor economists and public health officials consider the category overbroad and say it should be narrowed to only those who interact in person with the public.

… In a meeting last month, all voting members of the committee indicated support for putting essential workers ahead of people 65 and older and those with high-risk health conditions.

Historically, the committee relied on scientific evidence to inform its decisions. But now the members are weighing social justice concerns as well, noted Lisa A. Prosser, a professor of health policy and decision sciences at the University of Michigan.

“To me the issue of ethics is very significant, very important for this country,” Dr. Peter Szilagyi, a committee member and a pediatrics professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, said at the time, “and clearly favors the essential worker group because of the high proportion of minority, low-income and low-education workers among essential workers.”

That position runs counter to frameworks proposed by the World Health Organization, the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine, and many countries, which say that reducing deaths should be the unequivocal priority and that older and sicker people should thus go before the workers, a view shared by many in public health and medicine.

… But ultimately, the decision will be up to governors and state and local health officials. They are not required to follow C.D.C. guidelines, though historically they have done so.

… There are about 90 million essential workers nationwide, as defined by a division of the Department of Homeland Security that compiled a roster of jobs that help maintain critical infrastructure during a pandemic. That list is long, and because there won’t be enough doses to reach everyone at first, states are preparing to make tough decisions: Louisiana’s preliminary plan, for example, puts prison guards and food processing workers ahead of teachers and grocery employees. Nevada’s prioritizes education and public transit workers over those in retail and food processing.

The place with the fewest essential workers is Washington D.C.

At this early point, many state plans put at least some people who are older and live independently, or people who have medical conditions, ahead of most essential workers, though that could change after the C.D.C. committee makes a formal recommendation on the next phase.

One occupation whose priority is being hotly debated is teaching. The C.D.C. includes educators as essential workers. But not everyone agrees with that designation.

Marc Lipsitch, an infectious-disease epidemiologist at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health, argued that teachers should not be included as essential workers, if a central goal of the committee is to reduce health inequities.

“Teachers have middle-class salaries, are very often white, and they have college degrees,” he said. “Of course they should be treated better, but they are not among the most mistreated of workers.”

Elise Gould, a senior economist at the Economic Policy Institute, disagreed. Teachers not only ensure that children don’t fall further behind in their education, she said, but are also critical to the work force at large.

“When you talk about disproportionate impact and you’re concerned about people getting back into the labor force, many are mothers, and they will have a harder time if their children don’t have a reliable place to go,” she said. “And if you think generally about people who have jobs where they can’t telework, they are disproportionately Black and brown. They’ll have more of a challenge when child care is an issue.” …

The essential workers on the federal list make up nearly 70 percent of the American labor force, the researchers said, compared with 42 percent for the frontline workers. Women made up 39 percent of frontline workers and, in certain occupations, far more. Frontline workers’ education levels are lower, as are their wages — on average, just under $22 an hour. The proportion of Black and Hispanic workers is higher than in the broader category of essential workers.

Moreover, vaccine trial results so far show only that the shots can protect the individuals who receive them. The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others. Though scientists believe that is likely to be the case, it has yet to be proved.

Does anybody have a plan for figuring this out?

… Harald Schmidt, an expert in ethics and health policy at the University of Pennsylvania, said that it is reasonable to put essential workers ahead of older adults, given their risks, and that they are disproportionately minorities. “Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.”

But to protect older people more at risk, he called on the C.D.C. committee to also integrate the agency’s own “social vulnerability index.”

The index includes 15 measures derived from the census, such as overcrowded housing, lack of vehicle access and poverty, to determine how urgently a community needs health support, with the goal of reducing inequities.

In a new analysis of the states’ preliminary vaccine plans, Dr. Schmidt found that at least 18 states intended to apply the index. Tennessee, for one, has indicated that it will reserve some of its early allotments for disadvantaged communities.

Still, some people believe it is wrong to give racial and socioeconomic equity more weight than who is most likely to die. …

 
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  1. As a straight white male i would like to donate my vax to someone more deserving….Michelle Obama perhaps

  2. From the New York Times news section, an article in which it gradually becomes apparent that the only value conceivable in 2020 is: Would this policy benefit blacks more than whites? If so, good.

    Basically, any policy with racially disparate impact that helps whites is bad, and probably already illegal. Or the courts will soon make it illegal.

    Any policy with racially disparate impact that helps non-whites is good, and probably legal. And the courts will probably soon make it mandatory.

    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    • Replies: @James Speaks
    @Wilkey


    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?
     
    Not allowed! Involves abstract thought which blacks cannot do.
    , @AnotherDad
    @Wilkey


    Basically, any policy with racially disparate impact that helps whites is bad, and probably already illegal. Or the courts will soon make it illegal.

    Any policy with racially disparate impact that helps non-whites is good, and probably legal. And the courts will probably soon make it mandatory.

    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?
     
    It's minoritarianism. Plain and simple.

    We've put up with this logical and moral atrocity and the people who've thrust it upon us for 50+--instead of the tar and feathering and riding the rail they deserved.

    Any surprise this is where we're at now?
    , @Polistra
    @Wilkey

    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?
     

    How could you even think such a thing?? Speaking of whites, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that FWP will miraculously manage to be near the front of every line.

    And as always, pay special attention to the language and sentence structure of the NYT :


    It’s a question increasingly guided by concerns over the inequities laid bare by the pandemic
     
    A question guided by concerns! Inequities laid bare! These things just happen! It's not as though anyone's responsible.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Wilkey


    Basically, any policy with racially disparate impact that helps whites is bad, and probably already illegal. Or the courts will soon make it illegal.

    Any policy with racially disparate impact that helps non-whites is good, and probably legal. And the courts will probably soon make it mandatory.
     

    A very old story:

    Griswold v. Connecticut

    Connecticut and the Comstock Law

    Anthony Comstock's "Chastity" Laws

    https://connecticut.prochoiceamericaaffiliates.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/2018/06/hc-op-cooper-griswold-v-connecticut-birth-cont-001-e1528401729670.jpg

  3. The ultimate criterion of the goodness of an action has evolved far beyond the views of Bentham and Mill: no longer is it what leads to the greatest good of the greatest number; it is now what leads to the greatest good of non-whites, relative to the good accrued by whites. Conceivably, something could be terrible for non-whites, but even worse for whites, and would therefore be preferred by this criterion.

    • Replies: @B36
    @Cato

    Or, as Steve might say, modern utilitarianism means the greatest good for the greatest intersectional Pokemon points.

  4. It would appear that the goal is to create the impression of a shortage more so than the one that actually exists in order to create the demand in the population for this forbidden fruit.

    ‘You can’t have it’ in the minds of many will make them clamor for it all the more. This is reverse psychology on the weak of mind.

    I hope that so many people will refuse the vaccine that that becomes the real problem for the pushers of this largely manufactured pandemic.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @RoatanBill

    Just what I was thinking, using some form of reverse psychology to get people to panic and grab for it like they were grabbing for toilet paper some months back. Really selling it through the by now established peddling of fear. Fear works, apparently.

    , @Guest007
    @RoatanBill

    Refusing to get vaccinated will just drag out the pandemic and make the economic and social recovery weakrer. As long as 1k or more are dying each day from Covid-19, there is no return to normal.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @RoatanBill

    , @J.Ross
    @RoatanBill

    Also I think a goal here was to make this how all vaccines work going forward: they will all be mandatory, they will all be lightspeeded, and you will not be allowed to sue if problems emerge later.
    Look at all the things, which just happened to be globalist goals, the lockdown accomplished:
    1 Live mass experiment in totalitarianism, and largely successful.
    2 Changed ballot handling procedures to enable things like signatureless deadlineless mail-in voting.
    3 Destroyed small business.
    4 Tremendously strengthened megacorps like Blackrock and Amazon.
    5 Removed Trump's one great concrete apolitical-visible accomplishment, the economy.
    6 Reinforced mass media credibility with emergency powers -- now censorship of mainstream medical doctors is justified on public health grounds.
    7 Successfully tricked people into accepting a completely unnecessary and under-tested drug (which mainstream authorities warn could make women infertile) when we have warehouses of a nearly free totally safe drug which works against this largely non-existant virus.
    8 Enabled China to pretend to be a hero.

    , @anon
    @RoatanBill

    It would appear that the goal is to create the impression of a shortage more so than the one that actually exists in order to create the demand in the population for this forbidden fruit.

    Looks that way.

    "Supplies are limited! Only the first 10,000,000 orders can be filled!
    Call today! See the number at the bottom of your screen!"

    Ed Bernays would approve, Vance Packard would not.

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @RoatanBill

    Can't seem to do an [Agree] today. Agree.

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @RoatanBill

    St. Augustine was one of the leading thinkers of his day, and he regarded magnetism as a proof of miracles, since metal filings could be moved with no visible means of moving them.

    Covid-19 deniers are rather similar, arguing that since you can't see the virus, then it doesn't exist, so it must be a hoax.

    Now, the Black Death, that was a real disease for you with buboes and pus and stuff.

    Smallpox has been eradicated worldwide, but that had nothing to do with vaccines, it was just that people exercised a constitutional right not to have smallpox.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

  5. This is the inevitable fruit of the Civil Rights movement. Whitey is either slave or master. That’s it. Anywhere Whitey lives.

    Choose Master.

    • Agree: AndrewR
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @Whiskey

    Indeed. It was never about equality.

    St Martin's daughter proves that beyond all doubt.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/BerniceKing/status/1299340664409395202

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Whiskey


    This is the inevitable fruit of the Civil Rights movement. Whitey is either slave or master. That’s it. Anywhere Whitey lives.
     
    "This is the inevitable fruit of [two races on the same continent]. Whitey is either slave or master. That’s it. Anywhere Whitey lives."

    And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.. --You-know-who
  6. Wherever I happen to be on the list of who gets the vaccine, I will bravely step out of line for a deserving BIPOC to take my place. We’re allies, after all.

  7. The UK is starting vaccinations tomorrow, and has a priority order all worked out, with the ‘most vulnerable’ firmly at the top:

    Since the first level comprises those who live and work in old people’s homes, and then the over-80s are a level down, this means even the Queen and Prince Philip don’t make the cut for ‘top priority’.

    • Thanks: Goatweed, utu, Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    This is logical.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    , @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    It's like trying to board an airliner by status.

    Replies: @reactionry

    , @North Carolina Resident
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Notice #6 uses the words HEALTH CONDITIONS not illnesses or diseases. According to CDC's site, obesity and smoking are such conditions.
    To find their list, Google what are underlying health conditions.

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    But does the queen get her medical care from the national health service, or does she have private medical care?

    It's could well be that she would get a gold-plated vaccination set from Pfizer as a promotional gift.

    This would enable Pfizer to use the "by Royal appointment" logo on their advertising, which would enhance the status of their brand as purveyors of vaccines and fine drugs to Her Majesty.

    , @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    This should help determine if the vaccine works in those over the age of 80 in the UK and how well the elderly can handle this vaccine

    , @candid_observer
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Looking at this list, which seems eminently rational, the death rate in Britain will start plummeting by early January, and will come close to zero by the end of February.

    We, and the rest of the world, will look on in amazement and envy, as Joe wears his masks and talks about how we must all listen to the science and obey his orders forever.

    How smart will the delay by the FDA look then, I wonder? And how smart will it seem if we adopt a vastly different set of priorities, such as putting all "essential workers" near the top?

    Replies: @candid_observer

    , @candid_observer
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Among the remarkable, and remarkably intelligent, things about this list is how finely it divides the priorities, making many relevant distinctions in terms of priorities, designed to minimize deaths and hospitalizations as quickly as possible.

    All the proposed list of priorities from the CDC that I've seen are impressively coarse, lumping together large segments of the population quite irrationally. The effect of this crudeness will be to slow down the impact of the vaccines rather dramatically.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @epebble
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    This prioritization has some other unintended advantages too.

    1. Since this vaccine is being tested on the most feeble to least feeble, it acts as a Phase IV stress test on the vaccine. If anything can go wrong at all, it would be easiest to go wrong and be detected in 80+ age group.

    2. Similarly, if something were to go wrong, and go wrong very badly, the social and economic impact of 80+, 70+ ... people suffering that would be less impactful to society than if people in their prime years were to be impacted.

    3. Not immunizing children is a very good idea. Since long term effect of these vaccines is not known, having a whole generation of impacted kids if something goes wrong is worse than the very small risk this cohort has to Covid.

  8. Funny, you know one might ask why this wasn’t used to determine who should be quarantined, wear a mask etc.

  9. This may be just a way to get them to vaccinate at all. After you, my brotha.

    The easiest way to do this is first come, first serve. It’s going to get ridiculous parsing out the Pokémon points.

    • Replies: @Guy De Champlagne
    @Hhsiii

    It makes a lot of sense to give it to old people, since they have highest fatality rate and have the shortest time left here to develop long term symptoms.

    It also makes sense to give it to medical personnel because not only are they uniquely at risk but they have also been fleecing us for their whole careers, so any problems will just offset the unfair advantages their place in the medical system has given them. Let the pharmaceutical companies kill some of their own this time.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Hhsiii

  10. As everyone knows, white racists must die (as Opera said).
    If this goal can be reached quickly, then let us vaccinate 70% of the US population first, before offering Vaccines to white supremacists.

    Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.”

    I am sure we find a way to protect aging „minorities“
    . Elderly Blacks are first to get vaccinated, then 70% of the „essential workers“, and then elderly whites, if they have not died yet. Cuomo in New York can help towards that goal.

    It has long been institutionalized that „minorities“ have special privilege, like black privilege. As long as whites accept their second class treatment, (#TooWhite) they will continue to be more and more marginalized and disadvantaged.

    Just a stupid question: vaccines have been created by white scientists and white money? Or was it stolen from wise Latinas and Africans?

    • Replies: @Uncle Dan
    @SINCERITY.net

    Every stupid question deserves a stupid answer: from each according to his abilities to each according to his victimhood. Dig down deep, sucker. And if you’re white and over 75, you’ve already had it too good, so quit your whimpering and die quietly, or else...

  11. The British don’t seem to have a category for essential employees other than health care.

  12. Is everyone quoted in the article Jewish?

    (I’m starting to get the impression Jews really hate whites)

    • Replies: @Thoughts
    @jcd1974

    Where you been for 2000 years?

  13. @The Last Real Calvinist
    The UK is starting vaccinations tomorrow, and has a priority order all worked out, with the 'most vulnerable' firmly at the top:

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/12/06/15/36490852-0-A_graphic_demonstrates_the_order_of_priority_in_which_the_vaccin-a-24_1607266820129.jpg

    Since the first level comprises those who live and work in old people's homes, and then the over-80s are a level down, this means even the Queen and Prince Philip don't make the cut for 'top priority'.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @North Carolina Resident, @Jonathan Mason, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco, @candid_observer, @candid_observer, @epebble

    This is logical.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @S. Anonyia

    The impression I'm getting of the UK's approach to vaccination:

    1. A big media push that not-so-subtly reinforces the fact that the people of the UK are very fortunate they are getting the vaccine first.

    2. A simply-prioritized implementation scheme that, as you say, is likely to seem pretty reasonable to most people, and that's mostly based on uncontroversial criteria such as age.

    3. Frequent intimations of how things just might actually get better if people go ahead and get vaccinated, e.g. the DM had a story last week quoting a government official as saying the UK might be able to return to something like normal in the first half of 2021 if all goes well.

    This is in total contradistinction to the approach being taken here in Hong Kong, where a week of 100 or so cases a day has summoned up a wave of official doomsaying that exceeds anything I've yet seen here, and that's saying something. The HK government is also extremely gloomy on vaccinations, suggesting they might get around to it by the end of 2021, or maybe it'll just be 2022.

  14. “we don’t yet know how much the vaccines reduce infectiousness.”

    Because the vaccine was “rushed” out within 8 months instead of 5-8yrs of research/development, and more clinical trials to examine long term side effects, we also don’t know what the direct impact the vaccines will have on other factors of people’s long term health. E.G. Will the vaccines lead to cancer, heart disease, stroke, etc.? We simply don’t know what the long term side effects/direct impact on people’s health are going to be.

    Also, suppose it turns out that these vaccines can in in fact, be directly linked to causing cancer and/or heart disease in a significant minority percentage of people taking the vaccines. The class action lawsuits will go through the roof. After all, if the tobacco companies could be sued nearly half a century after the Surgeon General’s first official warnings vs. tobacco products, then its not too hard to imagine lawsuits (in the billions of dollars range) vs. Pfiser and Moderna for devleoping these vaccines, especially without them putting any warnings on the vaccines a la “In some cases, these vaccines can be traced directly to cancer, stroke, heart disease in some patients, etc.”

    Granted, with the Gnome sequencing and other developments within the last couple of decades one could make a case that it shouldn’t take decades to bring an effective vaccine to the market. At the same time, eight months simply isn’t enough time to have effectively determined the majority of side effects that can directly impact the health of significant populations who take the vaccine, especially when there are no warnings regarding the vaccine’s long term effects (which the developers couldn’t possibly know what they are as there wasn’t enough time, eight months, in developing the vaccines).

  15. Suppose a significant number of black people do not want the vaccine for reasons.

    What then?

    • Replies: @william munny
    @anon

    Depending on what you read, roughly half the black population believes that AIDS was man-made. A significant percentage also believes that is was spread intentionally in Africa through inoculations. They also grossly overestimate the number of people involved in the Tuskegee syphilis experiment (about 400 with syphilis).

    They will not be first in line.

    Replies: @midtown, @Walsh2, @Jack Armstrong

    , @Adam Smith
    @anon

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/03/1500-stimulus-checks-for-covid-19-shots-how-one-plan-would-work.html

    Replies: @anon

    , @bomag
    @anon


    Suppose a significant number of black people do not want the vaccine for reasons... What then?
     
    Blame Whitey.

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

    , @Uncle Dan
    @anon

    That’s easy. Simply deny the vaccine to the same proportion of white people. Preferably old white people who had it too good. There are numerous Experts on Ethics who could explain this to you in greater detail.

  16. This is all rather stupid as polls are showing that a majority of Blacks aren’t interested in getting it.

    So let Black workers have the first week to make White guilt professors happy. They don’t pay attention to data anyways.

    Then they can get started on some Atlantic and NYTimes articles why it’s White people’s fault that Blacks didn’t show up.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @John Johnson


    Then they can get started on some Atlantic and NYTimes articles why it’s White people’s fault that Blacks didn’t show up.
     
    If i was a younger guy doing my PhD in language AI, i'd think about developing a bot to write the "whitey's fault" articles. All minoritarian (ergo establishment press) writing on race in America is pretty much the same, so you just have to plug the pieces together for the particular circumstances. Not a terribly hard job.

    Then you create a fake woke POC female bio and keep sending it out to outlets to publish. Once you're alias has a track record, you'll get more acceptances and it can have a modest "writing" career you can use to supplement your income. With variations you can create more such personas (black, Caribbean, African, Latina, muslim, Jewish, various Asians, mixed, immigrant, various shades of LGBQWERTY, non-binary, trans, cute, plain, fat, good hair, bad hair, etc. etc.) that the AI can generate.

    Eventually you could have a stable of POC whoriting for you and live the pimp life ... while still doing your real research.
  17. I’m sure the NYT will complain if Emmett Till isn’t vaccinated before any whites are.

  18. From the New York Times news section, an article in which it gradually becomes apparent that the only value conceivable in 2020 is: Would this policy benefit blacks more than whites? If so, good.

    This has to be reverse psychology. This is how you get blacks to willingly take a experimental injection on a scale not seen since the Tuskegee Syphilis Study. You trick a majority of blacks that whites want the life saving vaccine first but they’ll “grudgingly” give it up as a gimmedat reparation. To have them save others, they gotta think they’re just saving themselves.

    • Replies: @James Speaks
    @Kronos


    not seen since the Tuskegee Syphilis Study.
     
    Sshhh!

    Replies: @Fhjjugccx, @Anonymous

    , @Wielgus
    @Kronos

    That Tuskegee study might suggest good sense on their part if they are reluctant to get vaccinated by "the man". Blacks being capable of good sense might be a heretical thought on this site, of course.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Colin Wright, @Jack D, @Kronos

    , @Simon Tugmutton
    @Kronos

    That shark has serious dental problems. I doubt if he flosses.

    Replies: @Kronos

  19. Anon[191] • Disclaimer says:

    Im afraid someday employers will use vaccination schedules as a reason not to hire prospective workers. Then people will be pretty much forced to get the latest vaccine or be unhireable. The government gets a third party enforcer of its edicts, kinda like digital platforms (facebook, twitter, youtube, and google) pseudo-policing speech.

    • Agree: Digital Samizdat
    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Anon


    Im afraid someday employers will use vaccination schedules as a reason not to hire prospective workers
     
    Yes, someday...

    Frozen food manufacturer Bellisio Foods is also planning for on-site COVID-19 vaccinations but does not expect to require employees to take part.

    "I don't think that we would mandate it but, you know, I didn't think we'd be taking temperatures either," says Margot McManus, Bellisio's chief people officer. "We can always change our mind."

    https://www.npr.org/2020/11/25/937240137/as-covid-19-vaccine-nears-employers-consider-making-it-mandatory
     
    probably in February or March.
    , @Forbes
    @Anon

    Afraid? Count on it. Vaccination certificate to get hired, to book a flight, to stay in a hotel, rent a car, to enter a building--the possibilities are endless.

    If a movie theatre or other premises can enforce a 'gun-free' zone, or otherwise restrict your Constitutional right to a gun--surely they can demand you be vaccinated, i.e. disease-free.

    "Your papers, please" required everywhere but the voting booth on election day. And you must welcome your new overlords with enthusiastic gusto--don't be the first one to stop applauding their speech.

  20. Off-topic, but how soon until Heather Mac Donald is banished to Unz?

    The Bias Fallacy. It’s the achievement gap, not systemic racism, that explains demographic disparities in education and employment.
    https://www.city-journal.org/achievement-gap-explains-demographic-disparities

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Beliavsky

    Heather Mac Donald is always good, but that article is an absolute steamroller of truth. Kudos to City Journal for continuing to publish her; there aren't many papers/journals/websites now that would.

  21. Amazed how blatantly they plan their Holodomor II against Whites.

    • Agree: AndrewR
  22. I have zero intention of getting version 1.0 of a vaccine for a virus so lethal, so deadly that you need to have a test to know if you even have it.

    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that’s been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Easyrhino


    I have zero intention of getting version 1.0 of a vaccine for a virus so lethal, so deadly that you need to have a test to know if you even have it.

    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that’s been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?
     
    Interesting when every single thing you say is a lie, or effectively so.

    You need the test to know if your illness is COVID-19 for differential diagnosis and thus treatment. "Big Pharma" has since 1988 been protected from our normal insane civil legal system for childhood vaccines, and without that liability protection for COVID-19 vaccines, this discussion would be moot, who would dare sell them in the US at the likely cost of being sued out of business? Or they'd be charging, say, 10 to 100 times more for them.

    Rushed to market, that remains to be seen, because a FDA Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is not proper licensure for the general population. Although that's perhaps a difference without much a distinction since the EUA approvals we're expecting this week and the next will result in tens of millions starting their vaccinations by the end of the year.

    "skipping usual test trial protocols" needs a huge Citation Needed, since the only known example of that for Western vaccines, ignoring the AZ/Oxford clown show, is the mRNA companies starting animal testing and their human Phase I trials in parallel. Definitely was risky for the relatively small number of humans involved, only 45 for Moderna, but it paid off fantastically.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Polynikes

    , @Justvisiting
    @Easyrhino

    There is one thing that blacks and whites can agree on--we trust those "scientists" and "experts" about as far as we can throw them.

    , @AnotherDad
    @Easyrhino


    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that’s been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?
     
    Getting Big Pharma out from under the complete joke of that's our legal system, so they could continue to produce critical vaccines without these phony, whiny "my son was a wonderful perfect child, but turned into a autistic loon (sometime) after being vaccinated"--perhaps the sanest piece of legislation Congress has passed in the post-War era.


    Many moderns seem to have no concept of what infectious disease used to do in the pre-vaccine era. I only saw the very tail end of it myself. Had a classmate whose parents didn't get him the polio vaccine in a timely manner. A good friend's dad--a vigorous young man who flew the B-17 with the 8th during the War--who barely hobbled around on crutches, had to have a handbrake thingy in his car to drive. But despite only very limited experience, i have the mental capability to understand from history and literature something of what life was like when infectious disease ruled the roost.

    Vaccines are simply the most important public health measure, with the exception of clean water and sewers/sewage treatment. If i had to choose between vaccines and all the other stuff modern medicine does--easy choice, vaccines.


    You don't want to take this one ... don't.

    But it's weird when some of the same people who rightly complain about the risk-averse hysteria over this virus--a decent geezer killer, but not very deadly to others--and the totalitarian response, then turn around and get all hyper risk-averse about vaccine side effects which are at least another order of magnitude more trivial than this virus.

    Replies: @Polynikes

  23. @Wilkey

    From the New York Times news section, an article in which it gradually becomes apparent that the only value conceivable in 2020 is: Would this policy benefit blacks more than whites? If so, good.
     
    Basically, any policy with racially disparate impact that helps whites is bad, and probably already illegal. Or the courts will soon make it illegal.

    Any policy with racially disparate impact that helps non-whites is good, and probably legal. And the courts will probably soon make it mandatory.

    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    Replies: @James Speaks, @AnotherDad, @Polistra, @Reg Cæsar

    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    Not allowed! Involves abstract thought which blacks cannot do.

  24. After looking at a fair amount of the evidence of voter fraud in swing states, it has become very clear what the secret weapon was in the Dem-led cities where much of the worst fraud took place–an abundance of criminal Blacks! with black belts in crime. Take, for instance, the black woman who trained election day workers in Detroit, telling them how the poll watchers “gotta give you yo six feet cuzza Covid” and adding the pro-tip that if you have your back to a wall, they can’t GET within six feet and can’t see what chicanery you’re up to “unless they got some bi-knock-you-lers.”

    Ha. Ha.

    Ha…

  25. Shouldn’t give it to the nursing home and rehab patients at the start–you should give it first to the people who WORK there, because they are mostly minority, and they mostly take the bus and subway or live in lower class crowded communities.

    How many cases can be attributed to Kaneesha getting the Wuhan from a virus laden bedpan of feces from infected 90 year old Uncle Johnny, and then going home and then spreading the sucker at a house party?

    It’s an epidemiological study just screaming to be done, especially with NYC data, which means it won’t happen, most likely.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia


    Shouldn’t give it to the nursing home and rehab patients at the start–you should give it first to the people who WORK there, because they are mostly minority, and they mostly take the bus and subway or live in lower class crowded communities.
     
    As discussed in the previous iSteve topic, I suspect it's a question of logistics. While you vaccinate as many workers as possible in the period before and after a shift change, while you're there you might as well also get all the patients. Time spent by vaccination crews traveling from A to B is entirely wasted.

    This of course isn't so compelling while the vaccines are in extremely short supply and manpower to vaccinate exceeds the vaccine supply, but that will change in due course; maybe this tactical detail should change with that.

    There's also the issue that the mRNA vaccines top out at what I've gathered is a normal for a good, "active" vaccine efficacy of 95%, so at big enough facilities, you won't be ring fencing the vulnerable patients. You also need to hit anyone who visits facilities for whatever reasons if it's likely they might transmit COVID-19 directly to patients, so maybe not Sysco in the US delivering food, but you'd need to get maintenance people for whatever might need fixing in patients' rooms.

    Replies: @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia, @BenKenobi

    , @Technite78
    @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia

    You've got it backward. Kaneesha has contracted the Wuhan from partying at an Airbnb party with 100 of her closest friends; she then passes it to 90 year old Uncle Johnny when she brings him his food while not wearing her mask properly.

    If the vaccine is effective in reducing the spread, then it makes sense to give it to those who are in contact the the most people. If it's not effective in reducing the spread, it makes more sense to give it to the most vulnerable to severe symptoms.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Bernardista
    @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia

    This is so on point and so brazenly true that it will never come to pass here in a nation with its head on backwards.

    I would add to the list the population of home health care aides who spend hours a day with their clients and are making minimum wage salaries, taking public transportation, and going home to crowded living spaces.

  26. They are not playing it smart. If they acted like the vaccine was very exclusive and hard to get and made it a status symbol to be vaccinated then the proly Mcproleproles would be climbing over each other to get it.

  27. @Kronos

    From the New York Times news section, an article in which it gradually becomes apparent that the only value conceivable in 2020 is: Would this policy benefit blacks more than whites? If so, good.
     
    This has to be reverse psychology. This is how you get blacks to willingly take a experimental injection on a scale not seen since the Tuskegee Syphilis Study. You trick a majority of blacks that whites want the life saving vaccine first but they’ll “grudgingly” give it up as a gimmedat reparation. To have them save others, they gotta think they’re just saving themselves.

    https://youtu.be/-pRuncHws2g

    Replies: @James Speaks, @Wielgus, @Simon Tugmutton

    not seen since the Tuskegee Syphilis Study.

    Sshhh!

    • Replies: @Fhjjugccx
    @James Speaks

    Tuskegee was a great mistake, and a crying shame. They never should have been allowed to fly those airplanes —THEY DIDN’T BUILD THAT!

    , @Anonymous
    @James Speaks



    not seen since the Tuskegee Syphilis Study.
     
    Sshhh!
     
    Read up on it, James. It wasn’t what you think it was.
  28. Blacks should get the vaccine first as part of reparations. And to encourage them and any malingerers of color, just hold a few boob tube telethons with various black celebrities and rappers like little Wayne, getting the jab along with Barak and Moochelle. Denzell Washington is solid and credible. Get him up there getting his dose.

    I might get the vaccine after a year, after I see what complications, paralysis and deaths come about.. BTW half of NYC firefighters say they will refuse the covid vaccination. NYC says they will be able to keep their jobs even if they are refuseniks

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @clyde


    I might get the vaccine after a year, after I see what complications, paralysis and deaths come about..
     
    That assumes you are still alive after a year. We already know what complications, paralysis and deaths come about for the 1st 60 days after get the vaccine - basically none after giving it to tens of thousands of volunteers, and we also know that most complications, paralysis and deaths from vaccines come about within that window. Is there SOME possibility that complications, paralysis and deaths come about after the 60 day window? Yes, but the possibility is very small. We also know what complications, paralysis and deaths come about from getting Covid itself and those risks are vastly higher than the risks from the vaccine.

    There's no way I would get this vaccine if it didn't protect me from some dangerous disease like Covid which is running wild thru the community. I always tell people that you gotta be nuts to undergo unnecessary procedures like cosmetic surgery. If things were the way they were in my community over the summer I probably would have waited. But right now the epidemic is burning out of control. You balance the risk against the reward.

    Replies: @Nico, @J.Ross, @clyde

  29. NY Times has joined the woketard trend of using equity and inequity to mean equality and inequality.

  30. Harald Schmidt, MA, PhD
    London School of Economics and Political Science (United Kingdom), PhD, Health & Public Policy
    Universität Münster (Germany), MA, Philosophy

    “Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.

    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.

    • Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    @utu

    Getting old is hard enough. But if you have the temerity to get old while white, it's going to get very ugly indeed.

    Replies: @Elmer T. Jones

    , @TTSSYF
    @utu

    Maybe Dr. Schmidt and others can work out an algorithm that solves for several unknowns simultaneously to determine 1) which groups should get the COVID vaccine and when, and 2) which groups should get a shot to euthanize them and when. That way, we might be able to achieve near-perfect equity of life span, with everyone dying more or less at the same age. Adaptive management could be used to continuously improve the process.

    Replies: @Travis

    , @AnotherDad
    @utu


    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.
     
    Minoritarians can't help themselves, that's just the sort of people they are.

    But sadly this stuff is small beer.

    The main genocide game is immigration. And secondarily endless propagandizing white women not to have white babies. (Girl, if you absolute must breed there a plenty of wonderful, tender, loving, black men available.)

    Whites have already been immigrated and feminismed into to being an effective minority in the US. It's just that there's a bunch of us old "legacy whites" still limping around. So actual white minority status won't happen for another couple more decades--once most of us boomers have kicked the bucket.

    But as we've seen this past couple decades minoritarians just salivate at the prospect of dead whites and just can't wait.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    , @Anonymous
    @utu


    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.
     
    Here is another manifestation of the same underlying agenda: The government should write off student loan debt because blacks and Browns have higher default rates.

    https://www.twitter.com/RoKhanna/status/1335960769326944261

    Replies: @Arclight

    , @Single and Ready to Drop Red Pills
    @utu

    What about American Jews’ life expectancy, average net worth, average level of healthcare coverage, Dr Schmidt?

  31. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.”

    So it’s just a start to shortening the unjustly long lifespans of whites. We still need to Do Better. What else can be done to correct this disparity? Maybe moving predatory ghetto blacks into safe white neighborhoods, demoralizing whites by making clear that their future is no longer rosy even if they make good decisions, destroying opportunities to start and work for independent local businesses, and ensuring that whites are consume junk foods to obesity and drugs to addiction. Seems like the project is proceeding well, with mounting death of despair rates promising to continue their increase into the future.

    • Agree: TTSSYF
    • Replies: @Charon
    @Lockean Proviso

    Speaking of, when is the day that whites are going on strike? Including the ones who run power plants and water supply systems?

    , @Single and Ready to Drop Red Pills
    @Lockean Proviso

    As always, money provides the best inoculation. Make lots of it and keep it safe. It’s much harder for anyone to torment you if you own the roof over your head and don’t depend on a salary.

  32. The evidence of election fraud mounts and yet no one calls for civil disobedience.

  33. This passage from the article is straight up unreformed “Cultural Revolution” Communist style thinking:

    One occupation whose priority is being hotly debated is teaching. The C.D.C. includes educators as essential workers. But not everyone agrees with that designation.

    Marc Lipsitch, an infectious-disease epidemiologist at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health, argued that teachers should not be included as essential workers, if a central goal of the committee is to reduce health inequities.

    “Teachers have middle-class salaries, are very often white, and they have college degrees,” he said. “Of course they should be treated better, but they are not among the most mistreated of workers.”

    In this guy’s value system apparently “essentiality” to society is who is “the most mistreated”.

    Anyway, outside of healthcare workers I think immunizing the elderly is definitely the way to go.
    For one thing the “essential worker” populations who have been “hardest hit” also have the highest level of immunity by virtue of their high exposure.

    The only person i’ve met who i know for sure had Covid-19 is a Lyft driver of color in the Northeast who also works as a nurse aid of some sort and got it in February or March along with her baby and boyfriend (it was a mild cold for all of them). I know it’s an anecdote, but as we covered in other threads the current state of knowledge about who’s had it and who hasn’t.

    e.g. 20% of 100 workers in one supermarket in Boston had ACTIVE COVID-19 back in May when they were tested (or at least were positive on RT-PCR test. So it was active or they’d recently gotten over it.) (https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/high-rate-of-symptomless-covid-19-infection-among-grocery-store-workers/ )

    20% of farm workers in the greater SF Bay Area have antibodies where overall rates of covid have been virtually nil until the past month or two (https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/12/02/california-farmworkers-hit-hard-by-covid-19-study-finds/)

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @vhrm

    Exactly. It is not that hard to figure out a fair way to distribute the vaccines, and every country in the world is having to make the same decision.

    Obviously the people who should be the highest priority for the vaccine are those who are most likely to be exposed to covid, such as healthcare workers, and to those persons who are in contact with the largest number of potential covid-19 victims, such as prison officers who move in and out of large populations.

    Then, just as the seasonal flu, you are trying to vaccinate as many people as possible out of the Medicare population, starting with nursing care and Alf residents because they are usually more elderly, more infirm, and exposed to more people.

    After that it becomes more of a lottery, but people who provide government services or who come into contact with a lot of other people during the course of their work would be the highest priority. places of employment could be assigned a certain number of vaccines and make the decision which workers are at highest risk.

    Naturally they will also be corruption, and the most wealthy people will pay more to get vaccines first, but that is the American way, and that's not going to change.

    But as I said above, every country in the world is having to make this decision, so it's not unique to America.

    Replies: @BenKenobi

    , @ic1000
    @vhrm

    Marc Lipsitch, an infectious-disease epidemiologist at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health, argued that epidemiologists should no longer be privileged with inclusion in university tenure schemes, as a central goal of the Social Justice movement is to reduce inequities.

    “Epidemiologists have upper-class salaries, are very often white, and they have college degrees,” he said. “Of course they should be treated better, but they are not among the most mistreated of workers. Adjunct faculty status is more than enough for them.”

    "Of course," he added, "infectious-disease epidemiologists at Harvard's T.H. Chan School of Public Health must stay on the tenure track. Employment insecurity would divert the extraordinary talents of these indispensable individuals, slowing the solution of this unique crisis and the many unique crises that will surely follow."

  34. @Wilkey

    From the New York Times news section, an article in which it gradually becomes apparent that the only value conceivable in 2020 is: Would this policy benefit blacks more than whites? If so, good.
     
    Basically, any policy with racially disparate impact that helps whites is bad, and probably already illegal. Or the courts will soon make it illegal.

    Any policy with racially disparate impact that helps non-whites is good, and probably legal. And the courts will probably soon make it mandatory.

    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    Replies: @James Speaks, @AnotherDad, @Polistra, @Reg Cæsar

    Basically, any policy with racially disparate impact that helps whites is bad, and probably already illegal. Or the courts will soon make it illegal.

    Any policy with racially disparate impact that helps non-whites is good, and probably legal. And the courts will probably soon make it mandatory.

    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    It’s minoritarianism. Plain and simple.

    We’ve put up with this logical and moral atrocity and the people who’ve thrust it upon us for 50+–instead of the tar and feathering and riding the rail they deserved.

    Any surprise this is where we’re at now?

  35. anon[112] • Disclaimer says:

    All of this talk of rationing assumes that the supply is extremely limited. It will actually only be like that for a few months, if that.

    The time spent arguing about who should get priority would be better spent trying to increase production or improve distribution.

    Also many of the limits will be on distribution and getting people to volunteer to take the vaccine where and when it is available. If someone wants to get the vaccine, you should probably just let them take it, whether they absolutely need it or not.

    Another good rule of thumb is that if the right thing to do isn’t obvious, we should just copy what the chinese are doing, since they seem to be good at staying focused with these things.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @anon


    The time spent arguing about who should get priority would be better spent trying to increase production or improve distribution.
     
    The people who spend the time arguing are not the same people who spend time increasing production and improving distribution. Those are 2 different "skill" sets.

    Another good rule of thumb is that if the right thing to do isn’t obvious, we should just copy what the chinese are doing, since they seem to be good at staying focused with these things.
     
    NO, JUST NO! Following the Chinese into Orwellian stupidity is the last thing we ought to do. You need to get a different thumb for your rules.
  36. Why not just recommend euthanasia for whites and be done with it?

    • Replies: @Charon
    @Anonymous

    All in good time, my pretty.

    , @TTSSYF
    @Anonymous

    You beat me to it.

  37. Anonymous[348] • Disclaimer says:

    Why can’t ‘Harald Schmidt’ do the decent and honorable thing, lead from the front, and set the example?, you know, that old fashioned concept of noblesse oblige – act like a true officer, take out your puny little pistol, and lead your foot soldiers right up to the enemy.

    Don’t hold your breath.

  38. I would hope that essential workers does not include sports, entertainment, prostitutes, pimps, drug dealers, welfare recipients and prison inmates.
    If it includes child care providers, my wife and I might get in the back door since we are almost full time with the grandkids so the kids can do their own Zoom work. Otherwise, we go to the back of the line.
    Maybe they could compromise by prioritizing essential workers over 50 or with underlying conditions, then start on the aged.

  39. @Wilkey

    From the New York Times news section, an article in which it gradually becomes apparent that the only value conceivable in 2020 is: Would this policy benefit blacks more than whites? If so, good.
     
    Basically, any policy with racially disparate impact that helps whites is bad, and probably already illegal. Or the courts will soon make it illegal.

    Any policy with racially disparate impact that helps non-whites is good, and probably legal. And the courts will probably soon make it mandatory.

    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    Replies: @James Speaks, @AnotherDad, @Polistra, @Reg Cæsar

    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    How could you even think such a thing?? Speaking of whites, I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts that FWP will miraculously manage to be near the front of every line.

    And as always, pay special attention to the language and sentence structure of the NYT :

    It’s a question increasingly guided by concerns over the inequities laid bare by the pandemic

    A question guided by concerns! Inequities laid bare! These things just happen! It’s not as though anyone’s responsible.

  40. @The Last Real Calvinist
    The UK is starting vaccinations tomorrow, and has a priority order all worked out, with the 'most vulnerable' firmly at the top:

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/12/06/15/36490852-0-A_graphic_demonstrates_the_order_of_priority_in_which_the_vaccin-a-24_1607266820129.jpg

    Since the first level comprises those who live and work in old people's homes, and then the over-80s are a level down, this means even the Queen and Prince Philip don't make the cut for 'top priority'.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @North Carolina Resident, @Jonathan Mason, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco, @candid_observer, @candid_observer, @epebble

    It’s like trying to board an airliner by status.

    • Replies: @reactionry
    @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

    According to a...er...friend...
    People of Color should get priority* seating with the next one hundred million or so airliner international tickets**. They should also be offered vaccination against SARS-CoV-2, cholera, yellow fever, polio, meningococcal disease, typhoid, Ebola and rabies, as well as anti-malarial medication and mosquito nets.

    * mandatory
    ** one-way

  41. The smart approach would be to focus on over-75 year olds and maybe only immunize 50% of essential workers. That way if something goes wrong with the vaccine we do not lose all of our doctors, nurses and first responders at one fell swoop.

    There remain concerns over whether mRNA vaccines may trigger autoimmune diseases.

    Have mRNA vaccines ever been used outside of the clinical context? mRNA vaccines were developed to fight cancer, but have been found ineffective to date. I do not think the mRNA vaccines for Zika have been used yet outside of clinical trials.

    In the end, isn’t the issue moot as there will be subsequent vaccines required every six months until death, correct? It is possible that you might have to take this vaccine (and the updates COVID-20, COVID-21, ad infinitum) every 90 to 120 days.

    Get ready for that Luciferase biometric chip in your forehead.

    Sounds like a real hassle, but when you realize no one will have a job anymore, going for your vaccine will be one of the few opportunities when the government allows you to leave your house.

    That is, until the vaccinations by drone start.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Clifford Brown


    The smart approach would be to focus on over-75 year olds and maybe only immunize 50% of essential workers. That way if something goes wrong with the vaccine we do not lose all of our doctors, nurses and first responders at one fell swoop.

    There remain concerns over whether mRNA vaccines may trigger autoimmune diseases.

    Have mRNA vaccines ever been used outside of the clinical context?
     
    What relevance does your last sentence have, besides belaboring the point that this is the first time mRNA vaccines have been tried for real, which no one denies?

    Based on the biology, the theory, we expect the extreme simplicity of mRNA vaccines, their only hitting a few of your cells with just a stabilized version of the spike protein, to result in their being the safest COVID-19 vaccines of all, which is why both companies started animal testing and Phase I human trials in parallel, a gamble which paid off fantastically.

    Which of course does not fully address your question, but you need to explain why your concerns don't apply even more forcefully to getting a normal infection from the wild type virus, hitting many, many more cells. Not knowing hardly enough about the immune system, I can't rule out there being a dangerous difference, but if we take your precautionary principle too far, we should never get out of bed in the morning. As of now, we're going by the metric that bad vaccine reactions overwhelmingly show up in the first month and a half, the FDA thus requiring two months of safety data.

    mRNA vaccines were developed to fight cancer, but have been found ineffective to date....
     
    Citation Needed, and seeing as how we don't have non-mRNA vaccines against human cancers, I fail to see the relevance, you're now shifting the goalposts to efficacy.

    In the end, isn’t the issue moot as there will be subsequent vaccines required every six months until death, correct? It is possible that you might have to take this vaccine (and the updates COVID-20, COVID-21, ad infinitum) every 90 to 120 days.
     
    That of course requires a COVID-20, and COVID-21 etc. appearing, when we're averaging perhaps one a decade, and only this one being highly transmittable. If they do so on a 90-120 day cadence, that's enemy action, and a credible threat of sterilizing the source with nuclear hellfire is a lot more direct way of addressing the problem. Sort of like how "active" vaccines like the mRNA ones are frequently preferred because I gather they provide a stronger immune system response against infected cells, stop it at the source.

    Otherwise, two things make this worry less likely: coronaviruses have a unique among RNA viruses proofreading mechanism, thus they mutate at well over 1/10the the rate, and we hope what the immune system latches onto on the spike protein is "conserved." Immunity in exactly the same way infections by the wild type virus induce, always remember that's the alternative, except those also hit the I assume mostly structural and therefore perhaps less conserved nucleocapsid protein.

    Replies: @Thoughts, @YetAnotherAnon

  42. Nevada’s prioritizes education and public transit workers over those in retail and food processing.

    There are public transit workers in Nevada?

    Can’t croupiers afford cars?

    • Replies: @duncsbaby
    @Reg Cæsar

    They have a monorail!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Vegas_Monorail


    https://media.giphy.com/media/xT5LMw7yVrNxZTcT84/giphy.gif

    Replies: @duncsbaby

  43. @utu
    Harald Schmidt, MA, PhD
    London School of Economics and Political Science (United Kingdom), PhD, Health & Public Policy
    Universität Münster (Germany), MA, Philosophy

    “Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.
     


    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @TTSSYF, @AnotherDad, @Anonymous, @Single and Ready to Drop Red Pills

    Getting old is hard enough. But if you have the temerity to get old while white, it’s going to get very ugly indeed.

    • Replies: @Elmer T. Jones
    @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

    My dad spent the last year of his life in a good nursing home because he managed his finances well and could afford it. Fat sassy black women helped him go to the potty and other personal tasks. He said "when one passes through the doors of a managed care facility one loses all human dignity".

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

  44. Are people really lining up to get this janky barely tested vaccine developed in a revolutionary, barely tested way?

    Given my risk factors I’d rather be intentionally infected by the virus than be given the vaccine. That’s assuming that infection confers immunity, which we still don’t seem to know is true or not for some reason. Of course we also know nothing about long term immunity from the vaccine.

    Even better is to do neither and just free ride on the herd immunity created by everyone else.

  45. we don’t yet know how much the vaccines reduce infectiousness.

    In other words, it’s pointless. They will say that vaccinated people (like the phantom “asymptomatic carriers”) will not get sick but will transmit the disease, so the lockdowns and masks will continue until the morale improves and ALL take the mRNA vaccine laced with who knows what.

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Dumbo

    Indeed. What is the point of a vaccine that does not reduce the infection rate?

    A lot of people do not seem to understand that this is not just a new vaccine. It is a new kind of vaccine - in effect a synthetic virus that is injected into you. Nobody knows the long term effects of it. What if it causes cancer? Sterility? Most vaccines take years to be developed and approved. This one took seven months.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  46. @Wilkey

    From the New York Times news section, an article in which it gradually becomes apparent that the only value conceivable in 2020 is: Would this policy benefit blacks more than whites? If so, good.
     
    Basically, any policy with racially disparate impact that helps whites is bad, and probably already illegal. Or the courts will soon make it illegal.

    Any policy with racially disparate impact that helps non-whites is good, and probably legal. And the courts will probably soon make it mandatory.

    If the roles here were were exactly reversed, would anyone tolerate the suggestion that whites should move to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    Replies: @James Speaks, @AnotherDad, @Polistra, @Reg Cæsar

    Basically, any policy with racially disparate impact that helps whites is bad, and probably already illegal. Or the courts will soon make it illegal.

    Any policy with racially disparate impact that helps non-whites is good, and probably legal. And the courts will probably soon make it mandatory.

    A very old story:

    Griswold v. Connecticut

    Connecticut and the Comstock Law

    Anthony Comstock’s “Chastity” Laws

  47. Does anybody have a plan for figuring this out?

  48. Easiest problem to solve, ever:

    Restrict the vaccine to volunteers.

    How many people really want this thing? Why are we being threatened with punishment if we refuse it? Think ahead here. We’re dealing with psychos. Are we just being prepped for the Harris presidency? Because once Sleepy Joe gets his shot… she’s the boss.

  49. Actually, I missed something: somewhere I read that men are more than twice as likely as women to die from COVID., which is probably a greater disparity than that between whites and other races. So will men be going to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    Interestingly, the newsletter I read that statistic in (published my my health insurance company) blamed the higher male death rates on….men. Male stubbornness and genetics.

    • Replies: @Charon
    @Wilkey


    So will men be going to the front of the line for the vaccine?
     
    Bad Wilkey! Bad bad Wilkey!

    But sure, right as soon as we address the life expectancy disparity, the job safety risk disparities, the auto insurance rates disparities, cancer and heart disease, etc etc.

    What's that, holding your breath? Don't do that. I meant to tell you not to do that.

    Here. This'll help:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/science-environment-43294221&ved=2ahUKEwiAofXmtLvtAhXCFVkFHS6cCI84ChAWMAd6BAgBEAE&usg=AOvVaw2RhY-j9pGeib4P4f8A37KN

  50. @Wilkey
    Actually, I missed something: somewhere I read that men are more than twice as likely as women to die from COVID., which is probably a greater disparity than that between whites and other races. So will men be going to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    Interestingly, the newsletter I read that statistic in (published my my health insurance company) blamed the higher male death rates on....men. Male stubbornness and genetics.

    Replies: @Charon

    So will men be going to the front of the line for the vaccine?

    Bad Wilkey! Bad bad Wilkey!

    But sure, right as soon as we address the life expectancy disparity, the job safety risk disparities, the auto insurance rates disparities, cancer and heart disease, etc etc.

    What’s that, holding your breath? Don’t do that. I meant to tell you not to do that.

    Here. This’ll help:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/science-environment-43294221&ved=2ahUKEwiAofXmtLvtAhXCFVkFHS6cCI84ChAWMAd6BAgBEAE&usg=AOvVaw2RhY-j9pGeib4P4f8A37KN

  51. Anon[135] • Disclaimer says:

    Moreover, vaccine trial results so far show only that the shots can protect the individuals who receive them. The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others.

    Steve makes such a big deal about this, but is it really so important? Doesn’t it only mean that someone who already has Covid, but is not symptomatic, might get the shot? So you’re talking about a window of a week or so, for presumably a single digit percentage of the population? These “vaccinated but infectious” people would not be a big threat overall, and you just keep your eyes on the prize of large-scale vaccination, turning these outliers into staistical noise as their numbers shrink.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Anon



    Moreover, vaccine trial results so far show only that the shots can protect the individuals who receive them. The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others.
     
    Steve makes such a big deal about this, but is it really so important? Doesn’t it only mean that someone who already has Covid, but is not symptomatic, might get the shot?
     
    It's not unreasonable to "make a big deal about this," because it pertains to asymptotic transmission, can someone who's protected against symptomatic COVID-19 nonetheless get it and transmit it to others.

    Unfortunately, it's not something easily determined, and just now I checked Moderna's Phase III protocol, page 16 starts a nice table which implicitly lists all their endpoints, and none are for this. To make a start on doing this, you'd want to, for example, regularly test trial participants, which would dramatically add to the cost of already very expensive trials, assume a billion dollars each just to starters, and would probably increase dropouts as they realize just what it means to get a nasal probe every week or half week.

    Instead, we're going with biology and what we believed we've learned so far about COVID-19, specifically the sort of immune system response we believe an "active" vaccination or of course real wild type virus infection confers. Overall, this has to be one of the smallest gambles being taken, but the usual suspects pounce when for example the Pfizer CEO answers honestly and confirms we don't know for sure.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Anonymous
    @Anon



    The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others.
     
    Steve makes such a big deal about this, but is it really so important? Doesn’t it only mean that someone who already has Covid, but is not symptomatic, might get the shot?
     
    Vaccinations most important effect is not to protect the person who is vaccinated. As far as I know, no vaccine confers absolute immunity to all who take it. The purpose of mass vaccination is to reduce the rate of transmission. If each newly infected person will infect two others, then the disease will obviously spread quickly. If fewer than one person (on average) is infected, then the disease will eventually die out.

    Here's how it works in a bit more detail:

    Suppose that the natural infection rate is two, but that 2/3 of the population has been vaccinated. then 2 out of every 3 infections is stopped, and each newly infected person only infects 2*(1-1/3) = 2/3 (fewer than one) other people. The epidemic ends.
    If the vaccination only confers 80% immunity, than not as many infections are prevented, and the newly infected person infects 2*(1 - .8*2/3)=0.933 people, still fewer than one. The epidemic still ends, just a bit later. And the immunized person who thought himself immune would have a 20%, 1 in 5, chance of becoming infected if exposed to the disease. That's a substantial risk. The largest benefit is the end of the epidemic, not individual immunity. Ending the epidemic reduces chance of getting the disease to 0, which is less than 1 in 5.


    So a "COVID-19 vaccine" that doesn't prevent new infections is as unlikely to render COVID-19 extinct as aspirins are to end headaches, or AID medications are to end AIDS. The common understanding of the word "vaccine" as stopping epidemics by conferring immunity is disregarded, and a new meaning for the word is defined -- without explicitly telling anybody of the redefinition.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  52. @Anonymous
    Why not just recommend euthanasia for whites and be done with it?

    Replies: @Charon, @TTSSYF

    All in good time, my pretty.

  53. @Lockean Proviso
    “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.”

    So it’s just a start to shortening the unjustly long lifespans of whites. We still need to Do Better. What else can be done to correct this disparity? Maybe moving predatory ghetto blacks into safe white neighborhoods, demoralizing whites by making clear that their future is no longer rosy even if they make good decisions, destroying opportunities to start and work for independent local businesses, and ensuring that whites are consume junk foods to obesity and drugs to addiction. Seems like the project is proceeding well, with mounting death of despair rates promising to continue their increase into the future.

    Replies: @Charon, @Single and Ready to Drop Red Pills

    Speaking of, when is the day that whites are going on strike? Including the ones who run power plants and water supply systems?

  54. OT:

    Today is December 7 – Pearl Harbor Day. On a quiet Sunday morning 79 years ago, Japanese warplanes rained death and destruction on the American Pacific fleet.

    We won the war and lost the peace.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    @Stan Adams

    We got a lot of cool cheap stuff though.

    I mean, a toilet that cleans itself!

    https://youtu.be/s0tCO4NdKeU

  55. @Beliavsky
    Off-topic, but how soon until Heather Mac Donald is banished to Unz?

    The Bias Fallacy. It’s the achievement gap, not systemic racism, that explains demographic disparities in education and employment.
    https://www.city-journal.org/achievement-gap-explains-demographic-disparities

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Heather Mac Donald is always good, but that article is an absolute steamroller of truth. Kudos to City Journal for continuing to publish her; there aren’t many papers/journals/websites now that would.

    • Agree: kaganovitch
  56. @Anon
    Im afraid someday employers will use vaccination schedules as a reason not to hire prospective workers. Then people will be pretty much forced to get the latest vaccine or be unhireable. The government gets a third party enforcer of its edicts, kinda like digital platforms (facebook, twitter, youtube, and google) pseudo-policing speech.

    Replies: @vhrm, @Forbes

    Im afraid someday employers will use vaccination schedules as a reason not to hire prospective workers

    Yes, someday…

    Frozen food manufacturer Bellisio Foods is also planning for on-site COVID-19 vaccinations but does not expect to require employees to take part.

    “I don’t think that we would mandate it but, you know, I didn’t think we’d be taking temperatures either,” says Margot McManus, Bellisio’s chief people officer. “We can always change our mind.”

    https://www.npr.org/2020/11/25/937240137/as-covid-19-vaccine-nears-employers-consider-making-it-mandatory

    probably in February or March.

  57. @Hhsiii
    This may be just a way to get them to vaccinate at all. After you, my brotha.

    The easiest way to do this is first come, first serve. It’s going to get ridiculous parsing out the Pokémon points.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    It makes a lot of sense to give it to old people, since they have highest fatality rate and have the shortest time left here to develop long term symptoms.

    It also makes sense to give it to medical personnel because not only are they uniquely at risk but they have also been fleecing us for their whole careers, so any problems will just offset the unfair advantages their place in the medical system has given them. Let the pharmaceutical companies kill some of their own this time.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @Guy De Champlagne

    In what alternate reality does it make sense to keep the oldest, most economically liable populations alive?


    For a movement constantly complaining about debt, right-wingers sure are hesitant to attack the root cause of that debt.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    , @Hhsiii
    @Guy De Champlagne

    Those groups going first I get. I’m toward the back of the line and doesn’t bother me.

  58. Mr. Lipsitch is also married to a *drum roll* Asian female.

    He graduated Yale in 1991. Wonder if he still listens to Black Flag.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @Bucky


    Mr. Lipsitch is also married to a *drum roll* Asian female.
     
    Successful white men disproportionately are, Becky. Only poorer, gay, drug or alcohol afflicted white males settle for white women in the 21st century.
    , @clyde
    @Bucky


    Mr. Lipsitch is also married to a *drum roll* Asian female.
     
    No. He is married to https://twitter.com/meiralevinson white woman...Mr. Lipsitch twitter feed shows what an ultra-lib he is.
  59. Where I live, a decent percentage of Covid-19 victims were from a federal prison.
    Will the Bad Doctor consider prisoners “essential workers”?

  60. @Bucky
    Mr. Lipsitch is also married to a *drum roll* Asian female.

    He graduated Yale in 1991. Wonder if he still listens to Black Flag.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @clyde

    Mr. Lipsitch is also married to a *drum roll* Asian female.

    Successful white men disproportionately are, Becky. Only poorer, gay, drug or alcohol afflicted white males settle for white women in the 21st century.

  61. @Guy De Champlagne
    @Hhsiii

    It makes a lot of sense to give it to old people, since they have highest fatality rate and have the shortest time left here to develop long term symptoms.

    It also makes sense to give it to medical personnel because not only are they uniquely at risk but they have also been fleecing us for their whole careers, so any problems will just offset the unfair advantages their place in the medical system has given them. Let the pharmaceutical companies kill some of their own this time.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Hhsiii

    In what alternate reality does it make sense to keep the oldest, most economically liable populations alive?

    For a movement constantly complaining about debt, right-wingers sure are hesitant to attack the root cause of that debt.

    • Replies: @Guy De Champlagne
    @JohnPlywood

    A huge part of the justification for placing restrictions on young healthy people who aren't at risk from the disease is that they'll infect older more vulnerable people.

  62. @S. Anonyia
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    This is logical.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    The impression I’m getting of the UK’s approach to vaccination:

    1. A big media push that not-so-subtly reinforces the fact that the people of the UK are very fortunate they are getting the vaccine first.

    2. A simply-prioritized implementation scheme that, as you say, is likely to seem pretty reasonable to most people, and that’s mostly based on uncontroversial criteria such as age.

    3. Frequent intimations of how things just might actually get better if people go ahead and get vaccinated, e.g. the DM had a story last week quoting a government official as saying the UK might be able to return to something like normal in the first half of 2021 if all goes well.

    This is in total contradistinction to the approach being taken here in Hong Kong, where a week of 100 or so cases a day has summoned up a wave of official doomsaying that exceeds anything I’ve yet seen here, and that’s saying something. The HK government is also extremely gloomy on vaccinations, suggesting they might get around to it by the end of 2021, or maybe it’ll just be 2022.

  63. @Reg Cæsar

    Nevada’s prioritizes education and public transit workers over those in retail and food processing.
     
    There are public transit workers in Nevada?

    Can't croupiers afford cars?

    Replies: @duncsbaby

    • Replies: @duncsbaby
    @duncsbaby

    I fear I may have commented too soon.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/09/economy/vegas-monorail/index.html

    The Las Vegas Monorail Company filed for bankruptcy this week, nearly six months after its last passenger boarded, as transportation businesses continue to struggle with fallout of the Covid-19 pandemic. The monorail shut down on March 18 and has yet to reopen. Transit systems worldwide have seen ridership drop and face increased costs to clean and sanitize their trains and buses.

  64. @RoatanBill
    It would appear that the goal is to create the impression of a shortage more so than the one that actually exists in order to create the demand in the population for this forbidden fruit.

    'You can't have it' in the minds of many will make them clamor for it all the more. This is reverse psychology on the weak of mind.

    I hope that so many people will refuse the vaccine that that becomes the real problem for the pushers of this largely manufactured pandemic.

    Replies: @anonymous, @Guest007, @J.Ross, @anon, @Achmed E. Newman, @Jonathan Mason

    Just what I was thinking, using some form of reverse psychology to get people to panic and grab for it like they were grabbing for toilet paper some months back. Really selling it through the by now established peddling of fear. Fear works, apparently.

  65. @duncsbaby
    @Reg Cæsar

    They have a monorail!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Vegas_Monorail


    https://media.giphy.com/media/xT5LMw7yVrNxZTcT84/giphy.gif

    Replies: @duncsbaby

    I fear I may have commented too soon.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/09/economy/vegas-monorail/index.html

    The Las Vegas Monorail Company filed for bankruptcy this week, nearly six months after its last passenger boarded, as transportation businesses continue to struggle with fallout of the Covid-19 pandemic. The monorail shut down on March 18 and has yet to reopen. Transit systems worldwide have seen ridership drop and face increased costs to clean and sanitize their trains and buses.

    • LOL: ic1000
  66. Having been favorably impressed several months ago by a proposal made by Marc Lipsitch (cited above) for challenge testing to accelerate vaccine licensure,

    https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/221/11/1752/5814216

    it was disappointing to read his vicious screed against White teachers in Sailer’s piece. Teachers who willingly prattle about “white privilege” and so forth, *deserve* to be “mistreated” by their hostile, vibrant students. In other words, they (those teachers) should be loathed on ethical grounds which are diametrically opposed to those of that pernicious pathogen, Lipsitch.

    It was good of M.L to advocate for CHIMs (Controlled Human Infection Models); not so good for him to chimp-out on educators.

    Also see: Getting a really bad tattoo is like putting a pig on Lipsitch.

  67. @The Last Real Calvinist
    The UK is starting vaccinations tomorrow, and has a priority order all worked out, with the 'most vulnerable' firmly at the top:

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/12/06/15/36490852-0-A_graphic_demonstrates_the_order_of_priority_in_which_the_vaccin-a-24_1607266820129.jpg

    Since the first level comprises those who live and work in old people's homes, and then the over-80s are a level down, this means even the Queen and Prince Philip don't make the cut for 'top priority'.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @North Carolina Resident, @Jonathan Mason, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco, @candid_observer, @candid_observer, @epebble

    Notice #6 uses the words HEALTH CONDITIONS not illnesses or diseases. According to CDC’s site, obesity and smoking are such conditions.
    To find their list, Google what are underlying health conditions.

  68. @Kronos

    From the New York Times news section, an article in which it gradually becomes apparent that the only value conceivable in 2020 is: Would this policy benefit blacks more than whites? If so, good.
     
    This has to be reverse psychology. This is how you get blacks to willingly take a experimental injection on a scale not seen since the Tuskegee Syphilis Study. You trick a majority of blacks that whites want the life saving vaccine first but they’ll “grudgingly” give it up as a gimmedat reparation. To have them save others, they gotta think they’re just saving themselves.

    https://youtu.be/-pRuncHws2g

    Replies: @James Speaks, @Wielgus, @Simon Tugmutton

    That Tuskegee study might suggest good sense on their part if they are reluctant to get vaccinated by “the man”. Blacks being capable of good sense might be a heretical thought on this site, of course.

    • Disagree: Kronos
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Wielgus


    That Tuskegee study might suggest good sense on their part if they are reluctant to get vaccinated by “the man”. Blacks being capable of good sense might be a heretical thought on this site, of course.
     
    Did the Whites’ Tuskegee study cause harm to Blacks?
    , @Colin Wright
    @Wielgus

    'That Tuskegee study might suggest good sense on their part if they are reluctant to get vaccinated by “the man”. Blacks being capable of good sense might be a heretical thought on this site, of course.'

    I can't say I mind the thought of blacks proving reluctant to take the vaccine. Not because of any concern for any effect on blacks (I doubt if there would be much either way), but just because I'd love to see the ideological short-circuits at the New York Times et al.

    'Don't they realize we're doing it because we love them?' It'd be kind of like those Jews getting chased off at a 'Black Lives Matter' rally 'n lootin.'

    H0wever will they get the blacks to trust them and take the vaccine? And if the blacks won't take it, what are they going to do? Let whites have it when blacks don't?

    Well, I'm sure they'll work it out. But it could be fun to watch -- and after all, it's all of little practical significance. This nonsense goes on until enough get fed up, and then it stops.

    , @Jack D
    @Wielgus

    Alternatively, as Steve says in his next comment, blacks are a group with below average IQ and above average self esteem, so if you find yourself in agreement with blacks you might want to reconsider whether you are right. When in US history have blacks been right about anything?

    Replies: @Kronos

    , @Kronos
    @Wielgus

    A common problem white liberals have with blacks is they act stupid when whites want them to be smart, but blacks will act smart when whites want them to be stupid.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Plan_(Washington,_D.C.)

  69. @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    It's like trying to board an airliner by status.

    Replies: @reactionry

    According to a…er…friend…
    People of Color should get priority* seating with the next one hundred million or so airliner international tickets**. They should also be offered vaccination against SARS-CoV-2, cholera, yellow fever, polio, meningococcal disease, typhoid, Ebola and rabies, as well as anti-malarial medication and mosquito nets.

    * mandatory
    ** one-way

    • LOL: Kylie
  70. @Bucky
    Mr. Lipsitch is also married to a *drum roll* Asian female.

    He graduated Yale in 1991. Wonder if he still listens to Black Flag.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @clyde

    Mr. Lipsitch is also married to a *drum roll* Asian female.

    No. He is married to https://twitter.com/meiralevinson white woman…Mr. Lipsitch twitter feed shows what an ultra-lib he is.

  71. @anon
    Suppose a significant number of black people do not want the vaccine for reasons.

    What then?

    Replies: @william munny, @Adam Smith, @bomag, @Uncle Dan

    Depending on what you read, roughly half the black population believes that AIDS was man-made. A significant percentage also believes that is was spread intentionally in Africa through inoculations. They also grossly overestimate the number of people involved in the Tuskegee syphilis experiment (about 400 with syphilis).

    They will not be first in line.

    • Replies: @midtown
    @william munny

    Well, Africans have some reason to be distrustful of some vaccines. Some women were sterilized from one -- don't remember the details now.

    , @Walsh2
    @william munny

    I find it amusing that liberal white folks and "elite" blacks think normal black folks are ok with this. Normal black folks are going to say GTFOH with your vaccine. Once liberal white folks and "elite" black folks figure this out the narrative will flip from it's racist not to give black folks vaccine first to it's racist to give black folks the vaccine first.

    , @Jack Armstrong
    @william munny

    Tuskegee study. I don’t think experiment is a good term as no one was “given” the disease. I’m told that’s a common misperception. It’s probably taught during black History month in our taxpayer funded schools.

    https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm


    In exchange for taking part in the study, the men received free medical exams, free meals, and burial insurance. Although originally projected to last 6 months, the study actually went on for 40 years.
     
    Pro tip: Never volunteer for any study with a “burial insurance” teaser.
  72. @vhrm
    This passage from the article is straight up unreformed "Cultural Revolution" Communist style thinking:

    One occupation whose priority is being hotly debated is teaching. The C.D.C. includes educators as essential workers. But not everyone agrees with that designation.

    Marc Lipsitch, an infectious-disease epidemiologist at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health, argued that teachers should not be included as essential workers, if a central goal of the committee is to reduce health inequities.

    “Teachers have middle-class salaries, are very often white, and they have college degrees,” he said. “Of course they should be treated better, but they are not among the most mistreated of workers.”
     
    In this guy's value system apparently "essentiality" to society is who is "the most mistreated".

    ---

    Anyway, outside of healthcare workers I think immunizing the elderly is definitely the way to go.
    For one thing the "essential worker" populations who have been "hardest hit" also have the highest level of immunity by virtue of their high exposure.

    The only person i've met who i know for sure had Covid-19 is a Lyft driver of color in the Northeast who also works as a nurse aid of some sort and got it in February or March along with her baby and boyfriend (it was a mild cold for all of them). I know it's an anecdote, but as we covered in other threads the current state of knowledge about who's had it and who hasn't.

    e.g. 20% of 100 workers in one supermarket in Boston had ACTIVE COVID-19 back in May when they were tested (or at least were positive on RT-PCR test. So it was active or they'd recently gotten over it.) (https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/high-rate-of-symptomless-covid-19-infection-among-grocery-store-workers/ )

    20% of farm workers in the greater SF Bay Area have antibodies where overall rates of covid have been virtually nil until the past month or two (https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/12/02/california-farmworkers-hit-hard-by-covid-19-study-finds/)

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @ic1000

    Exactly. It is not that hard to figure out a fair way to distribute the vaccines, and every country in the world is having to make the same decision.

    Obviously the people who should be the highest priority for the vaccine are those who are most likely to be exposed to covid, such as healthcare workers, and to those persons who are in contact with the largest number of potential covid-19 victims, such as prison officers who move in and out of large populations.

    Then, just as the seasonal flu, you are trying to vaccinate as many people as possible out of the Medicare population, starting with nursing care and Alf residents because they are usually more elderly, more infirm, and exposed to more people.

    After that it becomes more of a lottery, but people who provide government services or who come into contact with a lot of other people during the course of their work would be the highest priority. places of employment could be assigned a certain number of vaccines and make the decision which workers are at highest risk.

    Naturally they will also be corruption, and the most wealthy people will pay more to get vaccines first, but that is the American way, and that’s not going to change.

    But as I said above, every country in the world is having to make this decision, so it’s not unique to America.

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    @Jonathan Mason


    After that it becomes more of a lottery
     
    Oh it will become a lottery. Shirley Jackson's The Lottery! Bwahahahahaha
  73. Why won’t Democrats ever shut the fuck up about race? “Dems are the real racists” gets mocked a lot in our circles, but it’s unequivocally true. Even most white nationalists aren’t as obsessed with race as the average Democrat. I hate these people.

  74. @The Last Real Calvinist
    The UK is starting vaccinations tomorrow, and has a priority order all worked out, with the 'most vulnerable' firmly at the top:

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/12/06/15/36490852-0-A_graphic_demonstrates_the_order_of_priority_in_which_the_vaccin-a-24_1607266820129.jpg

    Since the first level comprises those who live and work in old people's homes, and then the over-80s are a level down, this means even the Queen and Prince Philip don't make the cut for 'top priority'.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @North Carolina Resident, @Jonathan Mason, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco, @candid_observer, @candid_observer, @epebble

    But does the queen get her medical care from the national health service, or does she have private medical care?

    It’s could well be that she would get a gold-plated vaccination set from Pfizer as a promotional gift.

    This would enable Pfizer to use the “by Royal appointment” logo on their advertising, which would enhance the status of their brand as purveyors of vaccines and fine drugs to Her Majesty.

    • LOL: AndrewR
  75. @Whiskey
    This is the inevitable fruit of the Civil Rights movement. Whitey is either slave or master. That's it. Anywhere Whitey lives.

    Choose Master.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Reg Cæsar

    Indeed. It was never about equality.

    St Martin’s daughter proves that beyond all doubt.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/BerniceKing/status/1299340664409395202

  76. @vhrm
    This passage from the article is straight up unreformed "Cultural Revolution" Communist style thinking:

    One occupation whose priority is being hotly debated is teaching. The C.D.C. includes educators as essential workers. But not everyone agrees with that designation.

    Marc Lipsitch, an infectious-disease epidemiologist at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health, argued that teachers should not be included as essential workers, if a central goal of the committee is to reduce health inequities.

    “Teachers have middle-class salaries, are very often white, and they have college degrees,” he said. “Of course they should be treated better, but they are not among the most mistreated of workers.”
     
    In this guy's value system apparently "essentiality" to society is who is "the most mistreated".

    ---

    Anyway, outside of healthcare workers I think immunizing the elderly is definitely the way to go.
    For one thing the "essential worker" populations who have been "hardest hit" also have the highest level of immunity by virtue of their high exposure.

    The only person i've met who i know for sure had Covid-19 is a Lyft driver of color in the Northeast who also works as a nurse aid of some sort and got it in February or March along with her baby and boyfriend (it was a mild cold for all of them). I know it's an anecdote, but as we covered in other threads the current state of knowledge about who's had it and who hasn't.

    e.g. 20% of 100 workers in one supermarket in Boston had ACTIVE COVID-19 back in May when they were tested (or at least were positive on RT-PCR test. So it was active or they'd recently gotten over it.) (https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/high-rate-of-symptomless-covid-19-infection-among-grocery-store-workers/ )

    20% of farm workers in the greater SF Bay Area have antibodies where overall rates of covid have been virtually nil until the past month or two (https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/12/02/california-farmworkers-hit-hard-by-covid-19-study-finds/)

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @ic1000

    Marc Lipsitch, an infectious-disease epidemiologist at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health, argued that epidemiologists should no longer be privileged with inclusion in university tenure schemes, as a central goal of the Social Justice movement is to reduce inequities.

    “Epidemiologists have upper-class salaries, are very often white, and they have college degrees,” he said. “Of course they should be treated better, but they are not among the most mistreated of workers. Adjunct faculty status is more than enough for them.”

    “Of course,” he added, “infectious-disease epidemiologists at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health must stay on the tenure track. Employment insecurity would divert the extraordinary talents of these indispensable individuals, slowing the solution of this unique crisis and the many unique crises that will surely follow.”

  77. @utu
    Harald Schmidt, MA, PhD
    London School of Economics and Political Science (United Kingdom), PhD, Health & Public Policy
    Universität Münster (Germany), MA, Philosophy

    “Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.
     


    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @TTSSYF, @AnotherDad, @Anonymous, @Single and Ready to Drop Red Pills

    Maybe Dr. Schmidt and others can work out an algorithm that solves for several unknowns simultaneously to determine 1) which groups should get the COVID vaccine and when, and 2) which groups should get a shot to euthanize them and when. That way, we might be able to achieve near-perfect equity of life span, with everyone dying more or less at the same age. Adaptive management could be used to continuously improve the process.

    • Replies: @Travis
    @TTSSYF

    no need, the Pfizer COVID vaccine will effectively euthanize the elderly nursing home patients.

  78. anon[205] • Disclaimer says:

    The Biden Miracle (TM) will occur by Jan 20, making Biden look a bit foolish for his 100 days in the basement rollout.

    OWS is designed to roll this bad boy out @ 1,000,000 / Day beginning at roughly Christmas. That adds up to 25,000,000 by Jan 20th. Meanwhile, per the CDC, actual cases are 8X reported cases or 1,000,000/day.

    So start with 100,000,000 actual cases (less than 8 x reported cases), add 1 million new cases/day until Jan 20 (30,000,000) and 25,000,000 vaccines and you get 155,000,000. Approaching herd immunity. Or approaching a collapse in new cases. They never talk much about how the logistic curves burn out and collapse.

    So, yea, this might sound optimistic. So give it 1/4 chance. Add another 50,000,000 immune by Feb 20? Give it 1/2 chance to abate. By March 20, it is all but certain to disappear.

    Then go back and tighten up the stupid assumptions for overlapping categories, over optimism, other blunders, and you still have roughly the same result — its over.

    Biden is a miracle worker.

    Key assumptions:
    10,000,000 in December. Various press releases.
    1,000,000 vaccines/day. OWS statements.
    8x ratio. CDC per the WSJ.

  79. The good news is that more sensible whites will skip the vaccine altogether. That is until the authorities force them to receive it at gunpoint.

  80. @Anonymous
    Why not just recommend euthanasia for whites and be done with it?

    Replies: @Charon, @TTSSYF

    You beat me to it.

  81. “the definition of “essential workers” used by the C.D.C. comprises nearly 70 percent of the American work force”

    But it does not include people who do not work.

  82. @william munny
    @anon

    Depending on what you read, roughly half the black population believes that AIDS was man-made. A significant percentage also believes that is was spread intentionally in Africa through inoculations. They also grossly overestimate the number of people involved in the Tuskegee syphilis experiment (about 400 with syphilis).

    They will not be first in line.

    Replies: @midtown, @Walsh2, @Jack Armstrong

    Well, Africans have some reason to be distrustful of some vaccines. Some women were sterilized from one — don’t remember the details now.

  83. @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    @utu

    Getting old is hard enough. But if you have the temerity to get old while white, it's going to get very ugly indeed.

    Replies: @Elmer T. Jones

    My dad spent the last year of his life in a good nursing home because he managed his finances well and could afford it. Fat sassy black women helped him go to the potty and other personal tasks. He said “when one passes through the doors of a managed care facility one loses all human dignity”.

    • Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    @Elmer T. Jones

    Did he say whether or not he thought that year was worth it?

  84. @The Last Real Calvinist
    The UK is starting vaccinations tomorrow, and has a priority order all worked out, with the 'most vulnerable' firmly at the top:

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/12/06/15/36490852-0-A_graphic_demonstrates_the_order_of_priority_in_which_the_vaccin-a-24_1607266820129.jpg

    Since the first level comprises those who live and work in old people's homes, and then the over-80s are a level down, this means even the Queen and Prince Philip don't make the cut for 'top priority'.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @North Carolina Resident, @Jonathan Mason, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco, @candid_observer, @candid_observer, @epebble

    This should help determine if the vaccine works in those over the age of 80 in the UK and how well the elderly can handle this vaccine

  85. What is amazing is how many anti-vaxxer there are and how they want to go back to living in the 19th century.

  86. @RoatanBill
    It would appear that the goal is to create the impression of a shortage more so than the one that actually exists in order to create the demand in the population for this forbidden fruit.

    'You can't have it' in the minds of many will make them clamor for it all the more. This is reverse psychology on the weak of mind.

    I hope that so many people will refuse the vaccine that that becomes the real problem for the pushers of this largely manufactured pandemic.

    Replies: @anonymous, @Guest007, @J.Ross, @anon, @Achmed E. Newman, @Jonathan Mason

    Refusing to get vaccinated will just drag out the pandemic and make the economic and social recovery weakrer. As long as 1k or more are dying each day from Covid-19, there is no return to normal.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Guest007

    Right, the anti-vaxxers are just playing into the hands of The Great Reset people. The sooner the pandemic is over due to vaccination, the faster The Great Reset turns into yesterday's uncool idea.

    Replies: @Thoughts, @RoatanBill, @J.Ross

    , @RoatanBill
    @Guest007

    The pandemic has almost nothing to do with the virus. This is a manufactured panic to elicit the desired response from people easily led around by propaganda.

    Big Pharma will make a fortune. Gov't gets to flex its muscles by imprisoning people without due process or even a criminal complaint. The medical mafia gets to control the population and ignore their long standing dictum of do no harm by going along with forced vaccinations using a concoction obviously not properly developed or tested using decades of norms for similar activities.

    The force will be applied by employers, private businesses that will refuse to serve those not vaccinated. The politicians are dog whistling this suggestion at every opportunity. That's just like avoiding the 1st Amendment as long as the gov't doesn't do it, but benefits the gov't nonetheless.

    This is tyrannical with full intent.

    This scam is benefiting the predators in the society that wears suits and have fancy degrees. I hope there's a wicked backlash coming for the political class that invented this scam and all the shills pushing it by a population that won't get injected, like the 55% of NYC firemen.

    Replies: @guest007

  87. @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia
    Shouldn't give it to the nursing home and rehab patients at the start--you should give it first to the people who WORK there, because they are mostly minority, and they mostly take the bus and subway or live in lower class crowded communities.

    How many cases can be attributed to Kaneesha getting the Wuhan from a virus laden bedpan of feces from infected 90 year old Uncle Johnny, and then going home and then spreading the sucker at a house party?

    It's an epidemiological study just screaming to be done, especially with NYC data, which means it won't happen, most likely.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Technite78, @Bernardista

    Shouldn’t give it to the nursing home and rehab patients at the start–you should give it first to the people who WORK there, because they are mostly minority, and they mostly take the bus and subway or live in lower class crowded communities.

    As discussed in the previous iSteve topic, I suspect it’s a question of logistics. While you vaccinate as many workers as possible in the period before and after a shift change, while you’re there you might as well also get all the patients. Time spent by vaccination crews traveling from A to B is entirely wasted.

    This of course isn’t so compelling while the vaccines are in extremely short supply and manpower to vaccinate exceeds the vaccine supply, but that will change in due course; maybe this tactical detail should change with that.

    There’s also the issue that the mRNA vaccines top out at what I’ve gathered is a normal for a good, “active” vaccine efficacy of 95%, so at big enough facilities, you won’t be ring fencing the vulnerable patients. You also need to hit anyone who visits facilities for whatever reasons if it’s likely they might transmit COVID-19 directly to patients, so maybe not Sysco in the US delivering food, but you’d need to get maintenance people for whatever might need fixing in patients’ rooms.

    • Replies: @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia
    @That Would Be Telling


    While you vaccinate as many workers as possible in the period before and after a shift change, while you’re there you might as well also get all the patients. Time spent by vaccination crews traveling from A to B is entirely wasted.
     
    Agreed. I should have added that vaccinations in nursing homes and long term care facilities should be done if possible simultaneously, workers and patients.

    In other words, first on the list are people who are exposed and who can't lock down, and then the elderly.
    , @BenKenobi
    @That Would Be Telling

    That Would Be Telling:

    May 2020: 8 comments
    June 2020: 4 comments
    July 2020: 2 comments
    August 2020: 1 comment
    September 2020: 3 comments
    October 2020: 5 comments
    November 2020: 192 comments
    December 2020: 156 comments in the first week so far

    https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fentries%2Ficons%2Ffacebook%2F000%2F006%2F026%2FNOTSUREIF.jpg

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  88. Read “Welcome to the Monkey House “ by Kurt Vonnegut to learn about government run ethical suicide parlors and ethical birth control. Seemed far-fetched when I read it 50 years ago. Not anymore.

  89. Diaperfaces are first to get the fake vax. It only makes sense: the most avid participants in this hoax get to extend and enrich their newly-discovered fake Meaning of Existence with a fake cure. Fake problem, fake reaction, fake solution: sniffles, facediapers, fakevax.

    The funny thing is diaperfaces will still with much smug and sanctimony don the facediaper of submission for the rest of their lives and demand everyone else participate in their sexual fetish.

    • Replies: @John Up North
    @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    Chicago has to be the world capital of diaperfaces. It's unsettling to have a white guy jog by me and deliberately make eye contact with me before he virtue signals me and pulls up his face diaper on to his dopey mug. I really want to flip the bird but I'm kinda old and unfit.

    Replies: @Clyde

  90. @Clifford Brown
    The smart approach would be to focus on over-75 year olds and maybe only immunize 50% of essential workers. That way if something goes wrong with the vaccine we do not lose all of our doctors, nurses and first responders at one fell swoop.

    There remain concerns over whether mRNA vaccines may trigger autoimmune diseases.

    Have mRNA vaccines ever been used outside of the clinical context? mRNA vaccines were developed to fight cancer, but have been found ineffective to date. I do not think the mRNA vaccines for Zika have been used yet outside of clinical trials.

    In the end, isn't the issue moot as there will be subsequent vaccines required every six months until death, correct? It is possible that you might have to take this vaccine (and the updates COVID-20, COVID-21, ad infinitum) every 90 to 120 days.

    Get ready for that Luciferase biometric chip in your forehead.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxnN05vOuSM

    Sounds like a real hassle, but when you realize no one will have a job anymore, going for your vaccine will be one of the few opportunities when the government allows you to leave your house.

    That is, until the vaccinations by drone start.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    The smart approach would be to focus on over-75 year olds and maybe only immunize 50% of essential workers. That way if something goes wrong with the vaccine we do not lose all of our doctors, nurses and first responders at one fell swoop.

    There remain concerns over whether mRNA vaccines may trigger autoimmune diseases.

    Have mRNA vaccines ever been used outside of the clinical context?

    What relevance does your last sentence have, besides belaboring the point that this is the first time mRNA vaccines have been tried for real, which no one denies?

    Based on the biology, the theory, we expect the extreme simplicity of mRNA vaccines, their only hitting a few of your cells with just a stabilized version of the spike protein, to result in their being the safest COVID-19 vaccines of all, which is why both companies started animal testing and Phase I human trials in parallel, a gamble which paid off fantastically.

    Which of course does not fully address your question, but you need to explain why your concerns don’t apply even more forcefully to getting a normal infection from the wild type virus, hitting many, many more cells. Not knowing hardly enough about the immune system, I can’t rule out there being a dangerous difference, but if we take your precautionary principle too far, we should never get out of bed in the morning. As of now, we’re going by the metric that bad vaccine reactions overwhelmingly show up in the first month and a half, the FDA thus requiring two months of safety data.

    mRNA vaccines were developed to fight cancer, but have been found ineffective to date….

    Citation Needed, and seeing as how we don’t have non-mRNA vaccines against human cancers, I fail to see the relevance, you’re now shifting the goalposts to efficacy.

    In the end, isn’t the issue moot as there will be subsequent vaccines required every six months until death, correct? It is possible that you might have to take this vaccine (and the updates COVID-20, COVID-21, ad infinitum) every 90 to 120 days.

    That of course requires a COVID-20, and COVID-21 etc. appearing, when we’re averaging perhaps one a decade, and only this one being highly transmittable. If they do so on a 90-120 day cadence, that’s enemy action, and a credible threat of sterilizing the source with nuclear hellfire is a lot more direct way of addressing the problem. Sort of like how “active” vaccines like the mRNA ones are frequently preferred because I gather they provide a stronger immune system response against infected cells, stop it at the source.

    Otherwise, two things make this worry less likely: coronaviruses have a unique among RNA viruses proofreading mechanism, thus they mutate at well over 1/10the the rate, and we hope what the immune system latches onto on the spike protein is “conserved.” Immunity in exactly the same way infections by the wild type virus induce, always remember that’s the alternative, except those also hit the I assume mostly structural and therefore perhaps less conserved nucleocapsid protein.

    • Replies: @Thoughts
    @That Would Be Telling

    In theory world, you are right.

    In powerpoint, in the classroom, on the blackboard...you are 100% correct

    But in the real world....Sh** happens

    And the reason why we can't argue with you is because We Don't Know what Sh** Will Happen

    No one thought the Pandemrix Vaccination would cause Narcoplepsy in 1300 people in Scandinavia

    It took years for them to figure out what sh** exactly happened

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @YetAnotherAnon

    , @YetAnotherAnon
    @That Would Be Telling

    "seeing as how we don’t have non-mRNA vaccines against human cancers"

    We have the various HPV jabs, of which the point is not to protect against sores or genital warts but cervical and mouth cancers.

  91. @Easyrhino
    I have zero intention of getting version 1.0 of a vaccine for a virus so lethal, so deadly that you need to have a test to know if you even have it.

    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that's been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Justvisiting, @AnotherDad

    I have zero intention of getting version 1.0 of a vaccine for a virus so lethal, so deadly that you need to have a test to know if you even have it.

    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that’s been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?

    Interesting when every single thing you say is a lie, or effectively so.

    You need the test to know if your illness is COVID-19 for differential diagnosis and thus treatment. “Big Pharma” has since 1988 been protected from our normal insane civil legal system for childhood vaccines, and without that liability protection for COVID-19 vaccines, this discussion would be moot, who would dare sell them in the US at the likely cost of being sued out of business? Or they’d be charging, say, 10 to 100 times more for them.

    Rushed to market, that remains to be seen, because a FDA Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is not proper licensure for the general population. Although that’s perhaps a difference without much a distinction since the EUA approvals we’re expecting this week and the next will result in tens of millions starting their vaccinations by the end of the year.

    “skipping usual test trial protocols” needs a huge Citation Needed, since the only known example of that for Western vaccines, ignoring the AZ/Oxford clown show, is the mRNA companies starting animal testing and their human Phase I trials in parallel. Definitely was risky for the relatively small number of humans involved, only 45 for Moderna, but it paid off fantastically.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    Of course you are 100% right but you are casting pearls before swine. The anti-vaxxers /just the flu bros (it's usually bros for some reason) will not listen to facts or reason. They have their own "facts" and reasons and trying to persuade them otherwise is just wasted breath. The really sad cases are the ones who are literally dying of Covid and they deny that Covid exists until their last breath.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @anon, @vhrm

    , @Polynikes
    @That Would Be Telling

    Your first paragraph is so far off the mark, there’s no point in even humoring the rest of your nonsense.

  92. @The Last Real Calvinist
    The UK is starting vaccinations tomorrow, and has a priority order all worked out, with the 'most vulnerable' firmly at the top:

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/12/06/15/36490852-0-A_graphic_demonstrates_the_order_of_priority_in_which_the_vaccin-a-24_1607266820129.jpg

    Since the first level comprises those who live and work in old people's homes, and then the over-80s are a level down, this means even the Queen and Prince Philip don't make the cut for 'top priority'.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @North Carolina Resident, @Jonathan Mason, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco, @candid_observer, @candid_observer, @epebble

    Looking at this list, which seems eminently rational, the death rate in Britain will start plummeting by early January, and will come close to zero by the end of February.

    We, and the rest of the world, will look on in amazement and envy, as Joe wears his masks and talks about how we must all listen to the science and obey his orders forever.

    How smart will the delay by the FDA look then, I wonder? And how smart will it seem if we adopt a vastly different set of priorities, such as putting all “essential workers” near the top?

    • Replies: @candid_observer
    @candid_observer

    The irony is that all the vaccines will have been developed under the aegis of Warp Speed, but Britain will be the first to get free of the grip of Covid, and return to a normal life. And of course they will have saved many thousands more lives. The difference couldn't be more stark.

    Fingers will be pointed, and rightly so. Politically, it would won't look good for the FDA, or the politicians who want to delay the process of vaccination to milk it so that they can seem like saviors.

    I'm talking about you, Joe Biden.

    Replies: @candid_observer

  93. I have ideas. Many of them. First, vaccinate anyone over 80. Then over 70. Then anyone who works in health care, down to the janitor at the medical center. He’s not seeing patients, but he’s breathing the same air, touching the same doorknobs, etc. Then a lottery, per family, with numbers pulled from tax returns. Then whoever’s left.

    Two things I haven’t seen discussed anywhere. First, we shouldn’t vaccinate people who have had it, right? They have antibodies. Should there be an antibody test before vaccination? We currently have 14 million confirmed cases. I’ll bet we have 50 million total cases. I’ll bet most of those people will happily pull themselves out of line. l sure would.

    Second, I’ve read about some significant side effects of the vaccine. 101.5 fever for four days, things like that. How many 80+ year-olds can tolerate that? My in-laws would have a hard time with it. They are not in good health.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Cool Daddy Jimbo


    Two things I haven’t seen discussed anywhere. First, we shouldn’t vaccinate people who have had it, right? They have antibodies. Should there be an antibody test before vaccination? We currently have 14 million confirmed cases. I’ll bet we have 50 million total cases. I’ll bet most of those people will happily pull themselves out of line. l sure would.
     
    And the CDC estimates 100 million cases, which for once I think might be a good result from them on unfashionable infectious disease control.

    As previously discussed here at iStever, the issue is the time and expense it would take to do tens of millions of antibody tests before vaccine production gets into high gear, plus their claimed by some inherent accuracy ceiling of 96%. Simpler and cheaper to just vaccinate everybody....

    Second, I’ve read about some significant side effects of the vaccine. 101.5 fever for four days, things like that.
     
    You'll want to check out the side effect profiles by age, Moderna at least made sure to enroll plenty of the elderly. As I recall, but not sure the source was reliable or specific to these mRNA vaccines, the elderly tend to have fewer side effects since, after all, those are based on the immune system's response, and their's aren't as effective as they used to be.

    See for example the newer flu vaccines for them, which have 4 times the antigens as the normal ones, my father certainly noticed the difference when he started taking those flu vaccines. You might also want to go with the odds, just how many of all ages got what "side effects." Scare quotes because you're deliberately poking the immune system with a stick, standard ones like fever are more "a greater reaction than you'd like" effects.
  94. @That Would Be Telling
    @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia


    Shouldn’t give it to the nursing home and rehab patients at the start–you should give it first to the people who WORK there, because they are mostly minority, and they mostly take the bus and subway or live in lower class crowded communities.
     
    As discussed in the previous iSteve topic, I suspect it's a question of logistics. While you vaccinate as many workers as possible in the period before and after a shift change, while you're there you might as well also get all the patients. Time spent by vaccination crews traveling from A to B is entirely wasted.

    This of course isn't so compelling while the vaccines are in extremely short supply and manpower to vaccinate exceeds the vaccine supply, but that will change in due course; maybe this tactical detail should change with that.

    There's also the issue that the mRNA vaccines top out at what I've gathered is a normal for a good, "active" vaccine efficacy of 95%, so at big enough facilities, you won't be ring fencing the vulnerable patients. You also need to hit anyone who visits facilities for whatever reasons if it's likely they might transmit COVID-19 directly to patients, so maybe not Sysco in the US delivering food, but you'd need to get maintenance people for whatever might need fixing in patients' rooms.

    Replies: @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia, @BenKenobi

    While you vaccinate as many workers as possible in the period before and after a shift change, while you’re there you might as well also get all the patients. Time spent by vaccination crews traveling from A to B is entirely wasted.

    Agreed. I should have added that vaccinations in nursing homes and long term care facilities should be done if possible simultaneously, workers and patients.

    In other words, first on the list are people who are exposed and who can’t lock down, and then the elderly.

  95. @william munny
    @anon

    Depending on what you read, roughly half the black population believes that AIDS was man-made. A significant percentage also believes that is was spread intentionally in Africa through inoculations. They also grossly overestimate the number of people involved in the Tuskegee syphilis experiment (about 400 with syphilis).

    They will not be first in line.

    Replies: @midtown, @Walsh2, @Jack Armstrong

    I find it amusing that liberal white folks and “elite” blacks think normal black folks are ok with this. Normal black folks are going to say GTFOH with your vaccine. Once liberal white folks and “elite” black folks figure this out the narrative will flip from it’s racist not to give black folks vaccine first to it’s racist to give black folks the vaccine first.

  96. @candid_observer
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Looking at this list, which seems eminently rational, the death rate in Britain will start plummeting by early January, and will come close to zero by the end of February.

    We, and the rest of the world, will look on in amazement and envy, as Joe wears his masks and talks about how we must all listen to the science and obey his orders forever.

    How smart will the delay by the FDA look then, I wonder? And how smart will it seem if we adopt a vastly different set of priorities, such as putting all "essential workers" near the top?

    Replies: @candid_observer

    The irony is that all the vaccines will have been developed under the aegis of Warp Speed, but Britain will be the first to get free of the grip of Covid, and return to a normal life. And of course they will have saved many thousands more lives. The difference couldn’t be more stark.

    Fingers will be pointed, and rightly so. Politically, it would won’t look good for the FDA, or the politicians who want to delay the process of vaccination to milk it so that they can seem like saviors.

    I’m talking about you, Joe Biden.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
    @candid_observer

    I gather that it will be left up to the states as to how they prioritize the vaccination. It will be interesting to see who follows the British model, and who goes for the virtue-signalling, we-are-your-saviors route.

    Again, the differences in outcome should be stark, even though all will have the built in extra delay by the FDA.

    Replies: @Jack D

  97. The trade-off between the two is muddied by the fact that the definition of “essential workers” used by the C.D.C………………

    Since when is it the job of the CDC to determine what people are and are not “essential”?

  98. @Anon

    Moreover, vaccine trial results so far show only that the shots can protect the individuals who receive them. The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others.
     
    Steve makes such a big deal about this, but is it really so important? Doesn't it only mean that someone who already has Covid, but is not symptomatic, might get the shot? So you're talking about a window of a week or so, for presumably a single digit percentage of the population? These "vaccinated but infectious" people would not be a big threat overall, and you just keep your eyes on the prize of large-scale vaccination, turning these outliers into staistical noise as their numbers shrink.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Anonymous

    Moreover, vaccine trial results so far show only that the shots can protect the individuals who receive them. The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others.

    Steve makes such a big deal about this, but is it really so important? Doesn’t it only mean that someone who already has Covid, but is not symptomatic, might get the shot?

    It’s not unreasonable to “make a big deal about this,” because it pertains to asymptotic transmission, can someone who’s protected against symptomatic COVID-19 nonetheless get it and transmit it to others.

    Unfortunately, it’s not something easily determined, and just now I checked Moderna’s Phase III protocol, page 16 starts a nice table which implicitly lists all their endpoints, and none are for this. To make a start on doing this, you’d want to, for example, regularly test trial participants, which would dramatically add to the cost of already very expensive trials, assume a billion dollars each just to starters, and would probably increase dropouts as they realize just what it means to get a nasal probe every week or half week.

    Instead, we’re going with biology and what we believed we’ve learned so far about COVID-19, specifically the sort of immune system response we believe an “active” vaccination or of course real wild type virus infection confers. Overall, this has to be one of the smallest gambles being taken, but the usual suspects pounce when for example the Pfizer CEO answers honestly and confirms we don’t know for sure.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @That Would Be Telling

    Yes. But you miss my point.

    Assume the vaccine is 95 percent effective at preventing infection or at least in keeping a lid on Covid's seriousness. Also assume that zero point zero zero zero percent of inoculated people are prevented from infecting others. In other words, every inoculated person can and if put near another will infect others, from day, say, 2 through day, say, 7.

    This seems like a trivial problem to me.

    You're going to be asked questions and get your temperature taken when you get a vaccine, maybe a couple of dozen questions, depending on whether you're pregnant. So symptomatic people will not be offered the vaccine.

    So a few people will get Covid from day 2 to 7 vaccinated people. But they won't give it back to any other vaccinated people, or only to 5 percent of them.

    This iterates recursively, and very soon there are few asymptomatic Covid victims left and few non immune people left.

  99. I happened to see a bit of “Face the Nation” yesterday and they were interviewing Chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot. The reporter asked Lightfoot if she would be able to give the vaccine to black people first since they had a higher death rate from Covid. She replied:

    MAYOR LIGHTFOOT: Well, we really get no discretion because part of the agreement with the- the federal government is that we agreed to the specific prioritization protocol that they put forward. But I think the good news about that for a city like Chicago is obviously our front-line health care workers are going to get it. They are very diverse. Our essential workers will be next in the queue. They are extraordinarily diverse and really lean towards people of color. So there will be an equity lens as it applies to distribution of the vaccine here in Chicago.

    Keep in mind the new, Orwellian meaning of “equity” whenever you see it used by a Democrat from now on. Equality is old hat. Equality requires that you treat everyone the same. You don’t apply justice or give out vaccines thru a racial “lens” at all – justice doesn’t wear colored eyeglasses, she wears a blindfold. Equity is 2020. Under the equity regime, white people have to sit in the back of the bus for the next 400 years to even the score for the 400 years when they sat up front.

    When you combine the “equity lens” with socialism it is literally a deadly combination – the state controls everything, even the giving of live saving substances, and it controls it in a way that favors and repays it supporters. Biden, who started out pledging to take a female VP (with the disastrous Kamala as a result) has now pledged to have a cabinet that is 150% female and minority.

    Here is a picture of Biden’s cabinet:

    Sorry, just kidding. There is a recent PBS show on Reconstruction. The first elections after the Civil War banned white people from voting so this was the Mississippi congressional delegation. The question is, how long before the backlash? White people might accept 2nd class citizenship for a little while but even liberals are going to get pissed when they find out that our leadership wants them to die in the name of equity.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @Jack D

    Sorry, just kidding. There is a recent PBS show on Reconstruction. The first elections after the Civil War banned white people from voting so this was the Mississippi congressional delegation.

    Hmm another group of mulattos selected to be leaders.

    Amazing how race doesn't exist and yet mulattos keep rising to the top.

    All a coincidence I'm sure. Can't possibly have anything to do with genetics.

    , @Lurker
    @Jack D

    Or more like this?

    https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/05/02/portland-arrests_custom-818bbea6beee412b8f8e378f85cdf5818fef01c2-s800-c15.jpg

    Replies: @El Dato

  100. @candid_observer
    @candid_observer

    The irony is that all the vaccines will have been developed under the aegis of Warp Speed, but Britain will be the first to get free of the grip of Covid, and return to a normal life. And of course they will have saved many thousands more lives. The difference couldn't be more stark.

    Fingers will be pointed, and rightly so. Politically, it would won't look good for the FDA, or the politicians who want to delay the process of vaccination to milk it so that they can seem like saviors.

    I'm talking about you, Joe Biden.

    Replies: @candid_observer

    I gather that it will be left up to the states as to how they prioritize the vaccination. It will be interesting to see who follows the British model, and who goes for the virtue-signalling, we-are-your-saviors route.

    Again, the differences in outcome should be stark, even though all will have the built in extra delay by the FDA.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @candid_observer

    See my reply above. I gather from Lightfoot's reply that the states will have limited discretion. They will have to follow the general priorities set by the Federal government but they may have some discretion in terms of who they define as "essential" and so on and where and how they distribute the vaccine. E.g. you could put all the distribution sites in the ghetto to make it convenient for people who don't have access to cars. They will be able to tilt the distribution to their favored pets but not as much as they would like if they were given completely free rein.

    In a way this is a shame. I have the feeling that the more free rein triumphant Dems are given under the Biden regime, the sooner they will drive the whole enterprise into a wall and trigger a white backlash. Remember when Trump said to the white suburban ladies that they should vote for him because he was keeping the Section 8 kneegrows out of their suburbs? Guess what, he wasn't kidding and after their houses get broken into by their new diverse neighbors and maybe even a few rapes, the suburban white women will hopefully get the message and remember why their grandparents moved out of the city to begin with.

    Replies: @candid_observer

  101. @Easyrhino
    I have zero intention of getting version 1.0 of a vaccine for a virus so lethal, so deadly that you need to have a test to know if you even have it.

    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that's been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Justvisiting, @AnotherDad

    There is one thing that blacks and whites can agree on–we trust those “scientists” and “experts” about as far as we can throw them.

  102. it will be interesting to see how many of the elderly nursing home patients live long enough to get the second dose of the vaccine. The typical nursing home patient only has 6 months to live once they are admitted to long term care facilities..

    The average age of participants when they moved to a nursing home was about 82. The average length of stay before death was 12 months, while the median was five months. Fifty-three percent of nursing home residents in the study died within six months.
    https://www.geripal.org/2010/08/length-of-stay-in-nursing-homes-at-end.html

    • Thanks: Mark G.
  103. @Dumbo

    we don’t yet know how much the vaccines reduce infectiousness.
     
    In other words, it's pointless. They will say that vaccinated people (like the phantom "asymptomatic carriers") will not get sick but will transmit the disease, so the lockdowns and masks will continue until the morale improves and ALL take the mRNA vaccine laced with who knows what.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Indeed. What is the point of a vaccine that does not reduce the infection rate?

    A lot of people do not seem to understand that this is not just a new vaccine. It is a new kind of vaccine – in effect a synthetic virus that is injected into you. Nobody knows the long term effects of it. What if it causes cancer? Sterility? Most vaccines take years to be developed and approved. This one took seven months.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Mr. Anon


    Indeed. What is the point of a vaccine that does not reduce the infection rate?
     
    That would make sense, if the appropriately named @Dumbo wasn't lying through his teeth. In truth, we don't know that the 95% for whom the vaccine takes, or almost all of them, will no longer be able to transmit the disease, starting no later than about a week from the second dose. But what we know about immune responses in general, immune responses to the COVID-19 wild type virus infection, and the similarity of the apparent in your blood immune response of the latter and the vaccine, says it will stop transmission.

    I looked at the Moderna Phase III trial protocol and this is not one of its endpoints. You're welcome to suggest an experiment that could test this. Would probably have to be a challenge trial, which iSteve says will happen in the U.K. (but I hope not with the AZ/Oxford clown show vaccine, or not before more data is collected on the accidentally discovered possibly better dosing pattern), and which a Dutch group is discussing.

    So, you know, this being an emergency and all, the FDA right now judging applications for Emergency Use Authorizations (EUAs), we go with our best judgement.

    A lot of people do not seem to understand that this is not just a new vaccine. It is a new kind of vaccine – in effect a synthetic virus that is injected into you.
     
    Evidently a lot of people also don't know that the next most advanced, and long used technology is exactly a synthetic virus. And you could squint and say attenuated live virus vaccines which have been a big thing for a very long time are somewhat synthetic.

    And a lot of people don't know molecular genetics and biology, and thus don't know that in theory these mRNA vaccines should be the safest "active" vaccines, that class preferred for its full spectrum immune system response at the cost of, yes, likely greater side effects statistically, because instead of infecting some of your cells with a replication deficient synthetic virus, it does this with only the exact bit of genetic material needed to hijack a cell to make it produce the spike protein, have them displayed on the surface of the cells for that good immune system response, etc.

    If you want safer because it works differently and is more familiar like the flu and tetanus vaccines, perhaps wait for the Novavax protein one, which, surprise, surprise, includes an adjuvant. Which is standard for protein vaccines, but are one of the most suspect things in all of vaccination.

    Nobody knows the long term effects of it. What if it causes cancer? Sterility?
     
    Having just been informed of how it works, how much it simulates a normal COVID-19 infection, just without all the other parts of the virus, and only to a few cells instead of a whole bunch because SARS-CoV-2 is of course a self-replicating virus, how can you say any of the above are likely?

    That said, they do have lipids protecting their mRNA rather like an enveloped virus such as SARS-CoV-2 or the flu, but artificial in nature, with some features to make them more likely to achieve the desired results. So there, if those are toxic, we have to hope the toxicologist's maxim "the dose makes the poison" is in play, that our bodies' machinery to deal with lipids can deal well with them, and also note that in one form or another the mRNA vaccine companies, here Moderna and BioNTech, have been trying this out on people for quite some time, with different payloads, and likely at least slightly different lipids.

    Most vaccines take years to be developed and approved. This one took seven months.
     
    Lie, since years of work have been put into stabilizing proteins to avoid antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). Lie for sure for Moderna's, they started January 10th when the first genetic sequences from the PRC were published, they in fact had their candidate in two days, thanks to that anti-ADE work which had been extended to SARS type coronavirus spike proteins for the obvious reason, MERS showed SARS was not an one off. Effective lie, because when you're not in an emergency, researchers wait for grant approvals to do blocks of work, then have to convince a Big Pharma company their candidate is worth checking out, etc. etc.

    The only short cuts being taken are for the mRNA vaccines, starting animal tests in parallel with the Phase I testing on a few humans, 45 for Moderna, a risk for those humans which paid off fantastically, and of course going for EUAs before full licensure, seeing as, you know, this is an emergency killing that last time I checked was killing more than a thousand people a day. But EUAs for vaccines are not new things, see their page on them. Which I see now completely emphasizes COVID-19, go to the bottom for earlier ones.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  104. Seriously, I’ll gladly risk my older, immunocomptomised lily-white ask so that some whippersnapper quaking in his or her boots in fear of the WuFlu can have my doses. My system doesn’t like PEG anyway.

    The place with the fewest essential workers is Washington D.C.

    True, but they should be the beta testers of their product. Just make sure they get the actual vaccine the rest of us are supposed to get, and not some vial of something far safer.

  105. @Whiskey
    This is the inevitable fruit of the Civil Rights movement. Whitey is either slave or master. That's it. Anywhere Whitey lives.

    Choose Master.

    Replies: @AndrewR, @Reg Cæsar

    This is the inevitable fruit of the Civil Rights movement. Whitey is either slave or master. That’s it. Anywhere Whitey lives.

    “This is the inevitable fruit of [two races on the same continent]. Whitey is either slave or master. That’s it. Anywhere Whitey lives.”

    And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.. –You-know-who

  106. @The Last Real Calvinist
    The UK is starting vaccinations tomorrow, and has a priority order all worked out, with the 'most vulnerable' firmly at the top:

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/12/06/15/36490852-0-A_graphic_demonstrates_the_order_of_priority_in_which_the_vaccin-a-24_1607266820129.jpg

    Since the first level comprises those who live and work in old people's homes, and then the over-80s are a level down, this means even the Queen and Prince Philip don't make the cut for 'top priority'.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @North Carolina Resident, @Jonathan Mason, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco, @candid_observer, @candid_observer, @epebble

    Among the remarkable, and remarkably intelligent, things about this list is how finely it divides the priorities, making many relevant distinctions in terms of priorities, designed to minimize deaths and hospitalizations as quickly as possible.

    All the proposed list of priorities from the CDC that I’ve seen are impressively coarse, lumping together large segments of the population quite irrationally. The effect of this crudeness will be to slow down the impact of the vaccines rather dramatically.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @candid_observer

    In particular, they lump the general population under 65 into one group although a 64 year old has considerably more risk than a 19 year old.

    I am wondering whether they kept the groups very broad because if they started to break them down into finer categories they would have stepped into a racial minefield? In a racially divided society, EVERYTHING is seen thru a racial lens. The (non-elderly) DIEverse have considerably higher risk than (non-elderly) white people. Shouldn't they get the vaccine first?

  107. @candid_observer
    @candid_observer

    I gather that it will be left up to the states as to how they prioritize the vaccination. It will be interesting to see who follows the British model, and who goes for the virtue-signalling, we-are-your-saviors route.

    Again, the differences in outcome should be stark, even though all will have the built in extra delay by the FDA.

    Replies: @Jack D

    See my reply above. I gather from Lightfoot’s reply that the states will have limited discretion. They will have to follow the general priorities set by the Federal government but they may have some discretion in terms of who they define as “essential” and so on and where and how they distribute the vaccine. E.g. you could put all the distribution sites in the ghetto to make it convenient for people who don’t have access to cars. They will be able to tilt the distribution to their favored pets but not as much as they would like if they were given completely free rein.

    In a way this is a shame. I have the feeling that the more free rein triumphant Dems are given under the Biden regime, the sooner they will drive the whole enterprise into a wall and trigger a white backlash. Remember when Trump said to the white suburban ladies that they should vote for him because he was keeping the Section 8 kneegrows out of their suburbs? Guess what, he wasn’t kidding and after their houses get broken into by their new diverse neighbors and maybe even a few rapes, the suburban white women will hopefully get the message and remember why their grandparents moved out of the city to begin with.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
    @Jack D

    It's a good question how much discretion states will have in establishing its priorities. In Ohio, in advance of a final decision from CDC, they have already laid out some priorities:

    https://www.wlwt.com/article/who-will-get-vaccinated-first-ohio-unveils-first-phase-of-covid-19-vaccine-program/34876734

    I suppose this fits in with previous outlines offered up by the CDC, but it seems odd to lay out a detailed plan before the CDC makes its final decision, if the states don't have the final say.

    If the CDC sticks to its guns, and maintains the broad categories it has already suggested, and states must abide by these rules, it's likely going to take well over a month, maybe months, for the US to catch up to Britain in reducing deaths and hospitalizations. It may even be worse in the EU, because they aren't going to grant permission to use the vaccines until Dec 29 at the earliest.

    Now of course the CDC, the FDA, and their counterparts in the EU, are all now boasting about how the are "following the science". But of course they are, in fact, following the bureaucracy, and their love of imposing oppressive rules on the public.

    But "the science" really says that Britain has the right solution to minimizing deaths and hospitalizations, and getting out of the grip of Covid as fast as possible.

    And these facts will show up soon enough in hard statistics from Britain that will be beyond embarrassing for these smug powers. The government of Britain will look brilliant, and the bureacracies elsewhere will look stubborn, stupid, and callously indifferent to human life. They will make their excuses, of course, but the facts will tell the true story.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  108. @candid_observer
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Among the remarkable, and remarkably intelligent, things about this list is how finely it divides the priorities, making many relevant distinctions in terms of priorities, designed to minimize deaths and hospitalizations as quickly as possible.

    All the proposed list of priorities from the CDC that I've seen are impressively coarse, lumping together large segments of the population quite irrationally. The effect of this crudeness will be to slow down the impact of the vaccines rather dramatically.

    Replies: @Jack D

    In particular, they lump the general population under 65 into one group although a 64 year old has considerably more risk than a 19 year old.

    I am wondering whether they kept the groups very broad because if they started to break them down into finer categories they would have stepped into a racial minefield? In a racially divided society, EVERYTHING is seen thru a racial lens. The (non-elderly) DIEverse have considerably higher risk than (non-elderly) white people. Shouldn’t they get the vaccine first?

  109. @RoatanBill
    It would appear that the goal is to create the impression of a shortage more so than the one that actually exists in order to create the demand in the population for this forbidden fruit.

    'You can't have it' in the minds of many will make them clamor for it all the more. This is reverse psychology on the weak of mind.

    I hope that so many people will refuse the vaccine that that becomes the real problem for the pushers of this largely manufactured pandemic.

    Replies: @anonymous, @Guest007, @J.Ross, @anon, @Achmed E. Newman, @Jonathan Mason

    Also I think a goal here was to make this how all vaccines work going forward: they will all be mandatory, they will all be lightspeeded, and you will not be allowed to sue if problems emerge later.
    Look at all the things, which just happened to be globalist goals, the lockdown accomplished:
    1 Live mass experiment in totalitarianism, and largely successful.
    2 Changed ballot handling procedures to enable things like signatureless deadlineless mail-in voting.
    3 Destroyed small business.
    4 Tremendously strengthened megacorps like Blackrock and Amazon.
    5 Removed Trump’s one great concrete apolitical-visible accomplishment, the economy.
    6 Reinforced mass media credibility with emergency powers — now censorship of mainstream medical doctors is justified on public health grounds.
    7 Successfully tricked people into accepting a completely unnecessary and under-tested drug (which mainstream authorities warn could make women infertile) when we have warehouses of a nearly free totally safe drug which works against this largely non-existant virus.
    8 Enabled China to pretend to be a hero.

    • Agree: RoatanBill, Mr. Anon
  110. @anon
    Suppose a significant number of black people do not want the vaccine for reasons.

    What then?

    Replies: @william munny, @Adam Smith, @bomag, @Uncle Dan

    • Replies: @anon
    @Adam Smith

    Gibs!

    Now yer talkin'!

  111. The place with the fewest essential workers is Washington D.C.

    Nary a truer word hath been written.

  112. The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others.

    How many vaxxers will quarantine for a month after they receive their jab?

  113. Government bureaucrats have determined that all government workers (millions of them) are essential.

    It’s really something how:

    • While the California public school buildings nearby have been closed, my school taxes have gone up.

    • A friend who operates a CA-based small business, just re-subjected to restrictions, had to layoff a bunch of employees while the number of government bureaucrats the friend answers to has not diminished.

    High taxes are essential.

  114. While certainly another aggravating article by the NYT, I am less emotionally invested in this argument as I have no intention of taking this poison. I wouldn’t want our elders taking this stuff either. Let them shoot up the brown masses and see how it works out first with them. A year from now maybe you try it on Beatrice in the nursing home.

  115. @John Johnson
    This is all rather stupid as polls are showing that a majority of Blacks aren't interested in getting it.

    So let Black workers have the first week to make White guilt professors happy. They don't pay attention to data anyways.

    Then they can get started on some Atlantic and NYTimes articles why it's White people's fault that Blacks didn't show up.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    Then they can get started on some Atlantic and NYTimes articles why it’s White people’s fault that Blacks didn’t show up.

    If i was a younger guy doing my PhD in language AI, i’d think about developing a bot to write the “whitey’s fault” articles. All minoritarian (ergo establishment press) writing on race in America is pretty much the same, so you just have to plug the pieces together for the particular circumstances. Not a terribly hard job.

    Then you create a fake woke POC female bio and keep sending it out to outlets to publish. Once you’re alias has a track record, you’ll get more acceptances and it can have a modest “writing” career you can use to supplement your income. With variations you can create more such personas (black, Caribbean, African, Latina, muslim, Jewish, various Asians, mixed, immigrant, various shades of LGBQWERTY, non-binary, trans, cute, plain, fat, good hair, bad hair, etc. etc.) that the AI can generate.

    Eventually you could have a stable of POC whoriting for you and live the pimp life … while still doing your real research.

  116. @That Would Be Telling
    @Easyrhino


    I have zero intention of getting version 1.0 of a vaccine for a virus so lethal, so deadly that you need to have a test to know if you even have it.

    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that’s been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?
     
    Interesting when every single thing you say is a lie, or effectively so.

    You need the test to know if your illness is COVID-19 for differential diagnosis and thus treatment. "Big Pharma" has since 1988 been protected from our normal insane civil legal system for childhood vaccines, and without that liability protection for COVID-19 vaccines, this discussion would be moot, who would dare sell them in the US at the likely cost of being sued out of business? Or they'd be charging, say, 10 to 100 times more for them.

    Rushed to market, that remains to be seen, because a FDA Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is not proper licensure for the general population. Although that's perhaps a difference without much a distinction since the EUA approvals we're expecting this week and the next will result in tens of millions starting their vaccinations by the end of the year.

    "skipping usual test trial protocols" needs a huge Citation Needed, since the only known example of that for Western vaccines, ignoring the AZ/Oxford clown show, is the mRNA companies starting animal testing and their human Phase I trials in parallel. Definitely was risky for the relatively small number of humans involved, only 45 for Moderna, but it paid off fantastically.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Polynikes

    Of course you are 100% right but you are casting pearls before swine. The anti-vaxxers /just the flu bros (it’s usually bros for some reason) will not listen to facts or reason. They have their own “facts” and reasons and trying to persuade them otherwise is just wasted breath. The really sad cases are the ones who are literally dying of Covid and they deny that Covid exists until their last breath.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Jack D


    Of course you are 100% right but you are casting pearls before swine.
     
    As always, I assume there's a middle that's amenable to being educated, and I've gotten plenty of thanks tags and comment replies to confirm they exist. Plus the research I do for my posts regularly educates me; for this one, in the exact details of the US "vaccine court" system, and also this morning the exact endpoints of Moderna's Phase III trial, and some of these bits will be useful for the decisions of my friends and myself. Not to mention that to the extent I can research and/or explain stuff for our host, what I do is that much more leveraged.

    Replies: @Sandmich

    , @anon
    @Jack D


    The really sad cases are the ones who are literally dying of Covid and they deny that Covid exists until their last breath.
     
    Which is exactly no one. That was documented. This meme went viral based on an interview with a single nurse and was wildly popular on CNN because it slandered the red flyover states and quickly generalized to apply to all Trump supporters.

    It was investigated in some depth by a Wired mag reporter, and followed up on by Fox.

    And part of a larger effort to retroactively eradicate Democratic anti vaxxer activities prior to the election. Just saying.

    , @vhrm
    @Jack D


    The really sad cases are the ones who are literally dying of Covid and they deny that Covid exists until their last breath.
     
    I believe you've already been apprised that this meme has no basis except the claims of a frustrated young nurse in South Dakota whose sentiment was not corroborated by others in the area.

    It doesn't exclude the possibility that done people feel this way, but is there any support for that other than this one woman's claims?

    (https://www.nationalreview.com/news/nurse-goes-viral-claiming-dying-patients-deny-covid-reality-her-hospital-colleagues-arent-so-sure/ )

    Replies: @Jack D

  117. @Jack D
    @candid_observer

    See my reply above. I gather from Lightfoot's reply that the states will have limited discretion. They will have to follow the general priorities set by the Federal government but they may have some discretion in terms of who they define as "essential" and so on and where and how they distribute the vaccine. E.g. you could put all the distribution sites in the ghetto to make it convenient for people who don't have access to cars. They will be able to tilt the distribution to their favored pets but not as much as they would like if they were given completely free rein.

    In a way this is a shame. I have the feeling that the more free rein triumphant Dems are given under the Biden regime, the sooner they will drive the whole enterprise into a wall and trigger a white backlash. Remember when Trump said to the white suburban ladies that they should vote for him because he was keeping the Section 8 kneegrows out of their suburbs? Guess what, he wasn't kidding and after their houses get broken into by their new diverse neighbors and maybe even a few rapes, the suburban white women will hopefully get the message and remember why their grandparents moved out of the city to begin with.

    Replies: @candid_observer

    It’s a good question how much discretion states will have in establishing its priorities. In Ohio, in advance of a final decision from CDC, they have already laid out some priorities:

    https://www.wlwt.com/article/who-will-get-vaccinated-first-ohio-unveils-first-phase-of-covid-19-vaccine-program/34876734

    I suppose this fits in with previous outlines offered up by the CDC, but it seems odd to lay out a detailed plan before the CDC makes its final decision, if the states don’t have the final say.

    If the CDC sticks to its guns, and maintains the broad categories it has already suggested, and states must abide by these rules, it’s likely going to take well over a month, maybe months, for the US to catch up to Britain in reducing deaths and hospitalizations. It may even be worse in the EU, because they aren’t going to grant permission to use the vaccines until Dec 29 at the earliest.

    Now of course the CDC, the FDA, and their counterparts in the EU, are all now boasting about how the are “following the science”. But of course they are, in fact, following the bureaucracy, and their love of imposing oppressive rules on the public.

    But “the science” really says that Britain has the right solution to minimizing deaths and hospitalizations, and getting out of the grip of Covid as fast as possible.

    And these facts will show up soon enough in hard statistics from Britain that will be beyond embarrassing for these smug powers. The government of Britain will look brilliant, and the bureacracies elsewhere will look stubborn, stupid, and callously indifferent to human life. They will make their excuses, of course, but the facts will tell the true story.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @candid_observer


    I suppose this fits in with previous outlines offered up by the CDC, but it seems odd to lay out a detailed plan before the CDC makes its final decision, if the states don’t have the final say.
     
    I think you're missing a step here, for the CDC has made its final recommendation, it was covered two topics ago here on iSteve. Turning those into requirements as a condition of getting Operation Warp Speed (OWS) delivered vaccines would be done elsewhere, to the extent it's done at all.

    But given how crazy the Left has become, I can see conditions like, sorry, but a no jabs for whitey policy won't fly. Also see federalism, the inane Chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot quoted earlier by @Jack D might be confusing Illinois requirements for Federal ones, or Illinois is perfectly capable of making their own s*** up and blaming it on the Feds.

    In fact, as long as Trump is in the White House, and this is the "Trump Shot," expect the usual suspects to continue to be the howling monkeys they've been since they was realized sometime in 2016 he had a real shot, so to speak, of becoming President. Even if they didn't admit it, things like Obama's literal mike drop skit showed deep down a lot on the Left realized he was dangerous.

    Replies: @candid_observer

  118. but tugboat operators, exterminators and nuclear energy workers

    It is just me, but I would consider all three of those groups pretty essential. Unless you want ships to become grounded, increased infestations of vermin, and blackouts/nuclear meltdowns.

  119. @clyde
    Blacks should get the vaccine first as part of reparations. And to encourage them and any malingerers of color, just hold a few boob tube telethons with various black celebrities and rappers like little Wayne, getting the jab along with Barak and Moochelle. Denzell Washington is solid and credible. Get him up there getting his dose.

    I might get the vaccine after a year, after I see what complications, paralysis and deaths come about.. BTW half of NYC firefighters say they will refuse the covid vaccination. NYC says they will be able to keep their jobs even if they are refuseniks

    Replies: @Jack D

    I might get the vaccine after a year, after I see what complications, paralysis and deaths come about..

    That assumes you are still alive after a year. We already know what complications, paralysis and deaths come about for the 1st 60 days after get the vaccine – basically none after giving it to tens of thousands of volunteers, and we also know that most complications, paralysis and deaths from vaccines come about within that window. Is there SOME possibility that complications, paralysis and deaths come about after the 60 day window? Yes, but the possibility is very small. We also know what complications, paralysis and deaths come about from getting Covid itself and those risks are vastly higher than the risks from the vaccine.

    There’s no way I would get this vaccine if it didn’t protect me from some dangerous disease like Covid which is running wild thru the community. I always tell people that you gotta be nuts to undergo unnecessary procedures like cosmetic surgery. If things were the way they were in my community over the summer I probably would have waited. But right now the epidemic is burning out of control. You balance the risk against the reward.

    • Replies: @Nico
    @Jack D


    There’s no way I would get this vaccine if it didn’t protect me from some dangerous disease like Covid which is running wild thru the community.
     
    COVID-19 is dangerous almost exclusively to people who don't know how to skip the fries and order a damn salad every now and then. Some 90% of hospitalized (not just in critical care) COVID-19 patients are obese, are diabetic or have coronary antecedents. 50% of hospitalized patients meet the criteria for metabolic syndrome (which as a diagnosis isn't much more than the sum of its parts), meaning more than one such condition, which indicates that COVID-19's dangerosity is overwhelmingly a product of a poor lifestyle, not genetics as pig-out apologists like Lindy West like to put out in front. The elderly are disproportionately represented because the windfall of poor lifestyle choices is more likely to show up the more the years pass. Their lower V02max and lower immune vigor does not help, but it does not even come close to explaining the disparities as well as does metabolic mayhem.

    I think some serious fat shaming is long overdue about now.

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @Clyde

    , @J.Ross
    @Jack D

    I'm trying not to just quote all of SCC -- apparently there was a small flash riot on Sunday -- but one of its most interesting posts in quite some time alleges that at least one restaurant will let you dine in normally, in a room without street-facing windows, on the logic that the people illegally enjoying a normal restaurant experience are a "private party" in the "VIP room," which would still be illegal anyway because of their numbers. And there's all the Democrat governors and mayors doing whatever the hell they want, sometimes hours after commanding their subjects to give up Christmas. So yeah I don't see your respondent falling victim to deadly danger unless he encounters a youth hoping to pay for college or a Bidentrooper inquiring about boating accidents. As John Hinderaker recently pointed out, snobbery is one thing, but why would an egotist expose himself to possible death? He would only do so if he were confident that the danger was controlled, or not real.
    https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/12/rules-are-for-the-little-people.php
    http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/2020/12/operating-in-plain-sight.html

    , @clyde
    @Jack D

    Go get your covid vaccine but I would not try to rush out there to be first, nearly first or among the first 5%.

  120. @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    Of course you are 100% right but you are casting pearls before swine. The anti-vaxxers /just the flu bros (it's usually bros for some reason) will not listen to facts or reason. They have their own "facts" and reasons and trying to persuade them otherwise is just wasted breath. The really sad cases are the ones who are literally dying of Covid and they deny that Covid exists until their last breath.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @anon, @vhrm

    Of course you are 100% right but you are casting pearls before swine.

    As always, I assume there’s a middle that’s amenable to being educated, and I’ve gotten plenty of thanks tags and comment replies to confirm they exist. Plus the research I do for my posts regularly educates me; for this one, in the exact details of the US “vaccine court” system, and also this morning the exact endpoints of Moderna’s Phase III trial, and some of these bits will be useful for the decisions of my friends and myself. Not to mention that to the extent I can research and/or explain stuff for our host, what I do is that much more leveraged.

    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @Sandmich
    @That Would Be Telling

    All things being equal, i.e. you wrote your comments forty years ago, then nothing about them would pop up on my radar. However things are not equal and everything seems to boil down to vaccine proponents spouting: "Why don't you trust the corrupt, thieving pharmaceutical companies who rigged their studies for political advantage and the governments who protect them while actively plotting your demise?". Me, and many others: "Umm...".

    Add in to that, that regular old flu killed several kids in my state last year but no one pushed a mask dictatorship, but all of the sudden when old people might not see another weekend of community bingo it's time to enslave the human race.

  121. You all believe in the coronavirus nonsense huh? What’s the point in limiting immigration if our own people are this retarded?

  122. Future NYT headline: Unexpected side effects of Pfizerzenica vaccine worse for Blacks. Were Blacks lured into getting the vaccine before whites?

  123. @candid_observer
    @Jack D

    It's a good question how much discretion states will have in establishing its priorities. In Ohio, in advance of a final decision from CDC, they have already laid out some priorities:

    https://www.wlwt.com/article/who-will-get-vaccinated-first-ohio-unveils-first-phase-of-covid-19-vaccine-program/34876734

    I suppose this fits in with previous outlines offered up by the CDC, but it seems odd to lay out a detailed plan before the CDC makes its final decision, if the states don't have the final say.

    If the CDC sticks to its guns, and maintains the broad categories it has already suggested, and states must abide by these rules, it's likely going to take well over a month, maybe months, for the US to catch up to Britain in reducing deaths and hospitalizations. It may even be worse in the EU, because they aren't going to grant permission to use the vaccines until Dec 29 at the earliest.

    Now of course the CDC, the FDA, and their counterparts in the EU, are all now boasting about how the are "following the science". But of course they are, in fact, following the bureaucracy, and their love of imposing oppressive rules on the public.

    But "the science" really says that Britain has the right solution to minimizing deaths and hospitalizations, and getting out of the grip of Covid as fast as possible.

    And these facts will show up soon enough in hard statistics from Britain that will be beyond embarrassing for these smug powers. The government of Britain will look brilliant, and the bureacracies elsewhere will look stubborn, stupid, and callously indifferent to human life. They will make their excuses, of course, but the facts will tell the true story.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I suppose this fits in with previous outlines offered up by the CDC, but it seems odd to lay out a detailed plan before the CDC makes its final decision, if the states don’t have the final say.

    I think you’re missing a step here, for the CDC has made its final recommendation, it was covered two topics ago here on iSteve. Turning those into requirements as a condition of getting Operation Warp Speed (OWS) delivered vaccines would be done elsewhere, to the extent it’s done at all.

    But given how crazy the Left has become, I can see conditions like, sorry, but a no jabs for whitey policy won’t fly. Also see federalism, the inane Chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot quoted earlier by might be confusing Illinois requirements for Federal ones, or Illinois is perfectly capable of making their own s*** up and blaming it on the Feds.

    In fact, as long as Trump is in the White House, and this is the “Trump Shot,” expect the usual suspects to continue to be the howling monkeys they’ve been since they was realized sometime in 2016 he had a real shot, so to speak, of becoming President. Even if they didn’t admit it, things like Obama’s literal mike drop skit showed deep down a lot on the Left realized he was dangerous.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
    @That Would Be Telling

    If these are the final recommendations of the CDC, then they are dangerously incompetent.

    The category of essential workers as usually defined is 90Million people -- the vast majority of which are not in any way vulnerable to serious consequences if they contract Covid. I gather we will be able to vaccinate maybe 25M people per month. Even supposing it's 30M, we'd be talking a 3 month delay to cover all essential workers. The idea that any member of a genuinely vulnerable population would be subject to Covid waiting for these people to be vaccinated is morally and socially obscene. It would be a public health catastrophe and disgrace of historic proportions to allow that to happen, when it can be known perfectly well in advance how this will play out.

    Now, maybe the states will define "essential workers" very narrowly, so that the worst part of this is minimized. But the idea that the CDC would leave open the possibility that a governor might cast the category over a vast number of people with extremely low vulnerability already demonstrates their incompetence.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @That Would Be Telling

  124. @Easyrhino
    I have zero intention of getting version 1.0 of a vaccine for a virus so lethal, so deadly that you need to have a test to know if you even have it.

    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that's been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Justvisiting, @AnotherDad

    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that’s been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?

    Getting Big Pharma out from under the complete joke of that’s our legal system, so they could continue to produce critical vaccines without these phony, whiny “my son was a wonderful perfect child, but turned into a autistic loon (sometime) after being vaccinated”–perhaps the sanest piece of legislation Congress has passed in the post-War era.

    Many moderns seem to have no concept of what infectious disease used to do in the pre-vaccine era. I only saw the very tail end of it myself. Had a classmate whose parents didn’t get him the polio vaccine in a timely manner. A good friend’s dad–a vigorous young man who flew the B-17 with the 8th during the War–who barely hobbled around on crutches, had to have a handbrake thingy in his car to drive. But despite only very limited experience, i have the mental capability to understand from history and literature something of what life was like when infectious disease ruled the roost.

    Vaccines are simply the most important public health measure, with the exception of clean water and sewers/sewage treatment. If i had to choose between vaccines and all the other stuff modern medicine does–easy choice, vaccines.

    You don’t want to take this one … don’t.

    But it’s weird when some of the same people who rightly complain about the risk-averse hysteria over this virus–a decent geezer killer, but not very deadly to others–and the totalitarian response, then turn around and get all hyper risk-averse about vaccine side effects which are at least another order of magnitude more trivial than this virus.

    • Agree: ic1000, Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Polynikes
    @AnotherDad

    Except the vaccine compensation fund wasn’t implemented because of the polio vaccine. Or the measles vaccine. Which as you say, people voluntarily rushed to get.

    It was implemented after a false swine flu scare in the 70s where the govt helped rush a crappy vaccine to market in under a year. Sound familiar?

    Good vaccines and sound science don’t need liability protection. People would get the polio vaccine even if it had a 1% complication rate. The disease was that bad.

    This vaccine isn’t needed by most. And any forcing it by govts is just scaremongering politicians trying to unwind the harm they’ve done without taking responsibility.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  125. @Cato
    The ultimate criterion of the goodness of an action has evolved far beyond the views of Bentham and Mill: no longer is it what leads to the greatest good of the greatest number; it is now what leads to the greatest good of non-whites, relative to the good accrued by whites. Conceivably, something could be terrible for non-whites, but even worse for whites, and would therefore be preferred by this criterion.

    Replies: @B36

    Or, as Steve might say, modern utilitarianism means the greatest good for the greatest intersectional Pokemon points.

  126. @utu
    Harald Schmidt, MA, PhD
    London School of Economics and Political Science (United Kingdom), PhD, Health & Public Policy
    Universität Münster (Germany), MA, Philosophy

    “Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.
     


    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @TTSSYF, @AnotherDad, @Anonymous, @Single and Ready to Drop Red Pills

    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.

    Minoritarians can’t help themselves, that’s just the sort of people they are.

    But sadly this stuff is small beer.

    The main genocide game is immigration. And secondarily endless propagandizing white women not to have white babies. (Girl, if you absolute must breed there a plenty of wonderful, tender, loving, black men available.)

    Whites have already been immigrated and feminismed into to being an effective minority in the US. It’s just that there’s a bunch of us old “legacy whites” still limping around. So actual white minority status won’t happen for another couple more decades–once most of us boomers have kicked the bucket.

    But as we’ve seen this past couple decades minoritarians just salivate at the prospect of dead whites and just can’t wait.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @AnotherDad


    And secondarily endless propagandizing white women not to have white babies. (Girl, if you absolute must breed there a plenty of wonderful, tender, loving, black men available.)
     
    Although technically correct, this has nothing to do with low fertility.

    In fact, all modern countries have a fertility level below replacement, from Iceland to Japan. There are no nig-nogs there, no nig-nog propaganda, and the result is the same.

    It seems that most people cannot accept the fact that females, if they are more than just a man's slave, don't want to have more than 1, max 2 children. Many, especially in South Korea & Japan- don't want a single baby.

    Primitive races and cultures (blacks, Muslims) will have a very high fertility until they are either forcibly stopped/sterilized or they drag down the entire civilized world into dystopia of mass extinction.

    The root problem is following: universally accepted global idea that human beings are equal in potential capabilities and should not be coerced, controlled or anything similar in their breeding patterns.
  127. @The Last Real Calvinist
    The UK is starting vaccinations tomorrow, and has a priority order all worked out, with the 'most vulnerable' firmly at the top:

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/12/06/15/36490852-0-A_graphic_demonstrates_the_order_of_priority_in_which_the_vaccin-a-24_1607266820129.jpg

    Since the first level comprises those who live and work in old people's homes, and then the over-80s are a level down, this means even the Queen and Prince Philip don't make the cut for 'top priority'.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @North Carolina Resident, @Jonathan Mason, @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco, @candid_observer, @candid_observer, @epebble

    This prioritization has some other unintended advantages too.

    1. Since this vaccine is being tested on the most feeble to least feeble, it acts as a Phase IV stress test on the vaccine. If anything can go wrong at all, it would be easiest to go wrong and be detected in 80+ age group.

    2. Similarly, if something were to go wrong, and go wrong very badly, the social and economic impact of 80+, 70+ … people suffering that would be less impactful to society than if people in their prime years were to be impacted.

    3. Not immunizing children is a very good idea. Since long term effect of these vaccines is not known, having a whole generation of impacted kids if something goes wrong is worse than the very small risk this cohort has to Covid.

  128. @Jack D
    I happened to see a bit of "Face the Nation" yesterday and they were interviewing Chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot. The reporter asked Lightfoot if she would be able to give the vaccine to black people first since they had a higher death rate from Covid. She replied:

    MAYOR LIGHTFOOT: Well, we really get no discretion because part of the agreement with the- the federal government is that we agreed to the specific prioritization protocol that they put forward. But I think the good news about that for a city like Chicago is obviously our front-line health care workers are going to get it. They are very diverse. Our essential workers will be next in the queue. They are extraordinarily diverse and really lean towards people of color. So there will be an equity lens as it applies to distribution of the vaccine here in Chicago.
     
    Keep in mind the new, Orwellian meaning of "equity" whenever you see it used by a Democrat from now on. Equality is old hat. Equality requires that you treat everyone the same. You don't apply justice or give out vaccines thru a racial "lens" at all - justice doesn't wear colored eyeglasses, she wears a blindfold. Equity is 2020. Under the equity regime, white people have to sit in the back of the bus for the next 400 years to even the score for the 400 years when they sat up front.

    When you combine the "equity lens" with socialism it is literally a deadly combination - the state controls everything, even the giving of live saving substances, and it controls it in a way that favors and repays it supporters. Biden, who started out pledging to take a female VP (with the disastrous Kamala as a result) has now pledged to have a cabinet that is 150% female and minority.

    Here is a picture of Biden's cabinet:

    https://www.history.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_700/MTYwNjk3OTQ4MDg5MzYyNDA3/black-legislators-reconstruction-gettyimages-170482961.webp

    Sorry, just kidding. There is a recent PBS show on Reconstruction. The first elections after the Civil War banned white people from voting so this was the Mississippi congressional delegation. The question is, how long before the backlash? White people might accept 2nd class citizenship for a little while but even liberals are going to get pissed when they find out that our leadership wants them to die in the name of equity.

    Replies: @John Johnson, @Lurker

    Sorry, just kidding. There is a recent PBS show on Reconstruction. The first elections after the Civil War banned white people from voting so this was the Mississippi congressional delegation.

    Hmm another group of mulattos selected to be leaders.

    Amazing how race doesn’t exist and yet mulattos keep rising to the top.

    All a coincidence I’m sure. Can’t possibly have anything to do with genetics.

  129. @That Would Be Telling
    @Jack D


    Of course you are 100% right but you are casting pearls before swine.
     
    As always, I assume there's a middle that's amenable to being educated, and I've gotten plenty of thanks tags and comment replies to confirm they exist. Plus the research I do for my posts regularly educates me; for this one, in the exact details of the US "vaccine court" system, and also this morning the exact endpoints of Moderna's Phase III trial, and some of these bits will be useful for the decisions of my friends and myself. Not to mention that to the extent I can research and/or explain stuff for our host, what I do is that much more leveraged.

    Replies: @Sandmich

    All things being equal, i.e. you wrote your comments forty years ago, then nothing about them would pop up on my radar. However things are not equal and everything seems to boil down to vaccine proponents spouting: “Why don’t you trust the corrupt, thieving pharmaceutical companies who rigged their studies for political advantage and the governments who protect them while actively plotting your demise?”. Me, and many others: “Umm…”.

    Add in to that, that regular old flu killed several kids in my state last year but no one pushed a mask dictatorship, but all of the sudden when old people might not see another weekend of community bingo it’s time to enslave the human race.

    • Agree: RoatanBill
  130. anon[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @RoatanBill
    It would appear that the goal is to create the impression of a shortage more so than the one that actually exists in order to create the demand in the population for this forbidden fruit.

    'You can't have it' in the minds of many will make them clamor for it all the more. This is reverse psychology on the weak of mind.

    I hope that so many people will refuse the vaccine that that becomes the real problem for the pushers of this largely manufactured pandemic.

    Replies: @anonymous, @Guest007, @J.Ross, @anon, @Achmed E. Newman, @Jonathan Mason

    It would appear that the goal is to create the impression of a shortage more so than the one that actually exists in order to create the demand in the population for this forbidden fruit.

    Looks that way.

    “Supplies are limited! Only the first 10,000,000 orders can be filled!
    Call today! See the number at the bottom of your screen!”

    Ed Bernays would approve, Vance Packard would not.

  131. @AnotherDad
    @utu


    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.
     
    Minoritarians can't help themselves, that's just the sort of people they are.

    But sadly this stuff is small beer.

    The main genocide game is immigration. And secondarily endless propagandizing white women not to have white babies. (Girl, if you absolute must breed there a plenty of wonderful, tender, loving, black men available.)

    Whites have already been immigrated and feminismed into to being an effective minority in the US. It's just that there's a bunch of us old "legacy whites" still limping around. So actual white minority status won't happen for another couple more decades--once most of us boomers have kicked the bucket.

    But as we've seen this past couple decades minoritarians just salivate at the prospect of dead whites and just can't wait.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    And secondarily endless propagandizing white women not to have white babies. (Girl, if you absolute must breed there a plenty of wonderful, tender, loving, black men available.)

    Although technically correct, this has nothing to do with low fertility.

    In fact, all modern countries have a fertility level below replacement, from Iceland to Japan. There are no nig-nogs there, no nig-nog propaganda, and the result is the same.

    It seems that most people cannot accept the fact that females, if they are more than just a man’s slave, don’t want to have more than 1, max 2 children. Many, especially in South Korea & Japan- don’t want a single baby.

    Primitive races and cultures (blacks, Muslims) will have a very high fertility until they are either forcibly stopped/sterilized or they drag down the entire civilized world into dystopia of mass extinction.

    The root problem is following: universally accepted global idea that human beings are equal in potential capabilities and should not be coerced, controlled or anything similar in their breeding patterns.

  132. Anon[130] • Disclaimer says:
    @That Would Be Telling
    @Anon



    Moreover, vaccine trial results so far show only that the shots can protect the individuals who receive them. The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others.
     
    Steve makes such a big deal about this, but is it really so important? Doesn’t it only mean that someone who already has Covid, but is not symptomatic, might get the shot?
     
    It's not unreasonable to "make a big deal about this," because it pertains to asymptotic transmission, can someone who's protected against symptomatic COVID-19 nonetheless get it and transmit it to others.

    Unfortunately, it's not something easily determined, and just now I checked Moderna's Phase III protocol, page 16 starts a nice table which implicitly lists all their endpoints, and none are for this. To make a start on doing this, you'd want to, for example, regularly test trial participants, which would dramatically add to the cost of already very expensive trials, assume a billion dollars each just to starters, and would probably increase dropouts as they realize just what it means to get a nasal probe every week or half week.

    Instead, we're going with biology and what we believed we've learned so far about COVID-19, specifically the sort of immune system response we believe an "active" vaccination or of course real wild type virus infection confers. Overall, this has to be one of the smallest gambles being taken, but the usual suspects pounce when for example the Pfizer CEO answers honestly and confirms we don't know for sure.

    Replies: @Anon

    Yes. But you miss my point.

    Assume the vaccine is 95 percent effective at preventing infection or at least in keeping a lid on Covid’s seriousness. Also assume that zero point zero zero zero percent of inoculated people are prevented from infecting others. In other words, every inoculated person can and if put near another will infect others, from day, say, 2 through day, say, 7.

    This seems like a trivial problem to me.

    You’re going to be asked questions and get your temperature taken when you get a vaccine, maybe a couple of dozen questions, depending on whether you’re pregnant. So symptomatic people will not be offered the vaccine.

    So a few people will get Covid from day 2 to 7 vaccinated people. But they won’t give it back to any other vaccinated people, or only to 5 percent of them.

    This iterates recursively, and very soon there are few asymptomatic Covid victims left and few non immune people left.

  133. @william munny
    @anon

    Depending on what you read, roughly half the black population believes that AIDS was man-made. A significant percentage also believes that is was spread intentionally in Africa through inoculations. They also grossly overestimate the number of people involved in the Tuskegee syphilis experiment (about 400 with syphilis).

    They will not be first in line.

    Replies: @midtown, @Walsh2, @Jack Armstrong

    Tuskegee study. I don’t think experiment is a good term as no one was “given” the disease. I’m told that’s a common misperception. It’s probably taught during black History month in our taxpayer funded schools.

    https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm

    In exchange for taking part in the study, the men received free medical exams, free meals, and burial insurance. Although originally projected to last 6 months, the study actually went on for 40 years.

    Pro tip: Never volunteer for any study with a “burial insurance” teaser.

  134. @Jack D
    I happened to see a bit of "Face the Nation" yesterday and they were interviewing Chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot. The reporter asked Lightfoot if she would be able to give the vaccine to black people first since they had a higher death rate from Covid. She replied:

    MAYOR LIGHTFOOT: Well, we really get no discretion because part of the agreement with the- the federal government is that we agreed to the specific prioritization protocol that they put forward. But I think the good news about that for a city like Chicago is obviously our front-line health care workers are going to get it. They are very diverse. Our essential workers will be next in the queue. They are extraordinarily diverse and really lean towards people of color. So there will be an equity lens as it applies to distribution of the vaccine here in Chicago.
     
    Keep in mind the new, Orwellian meaning of "equity" whenever you see it used by a Democrat from now on. Equality is old hat. Equality requires that you treat everyone the same. You don't apply justice or give out vaccines thru a racial "lens" at all - justice doesn't wear colored eyeglasses, she wears a blindfold. Equity is 2020. Under the equity regime, white people have to sit in the back of the bus for the next 400 years to even the score for the 400 years when they sat up front.

    When you combine the "equity lens" with socialism it is literally a deadly combination - the state controls everything, even the giving of live saving substances, and it controls it in a way that favors and repays it supporters. Biden, who started out pledging to take a female VP (with the disastrous Kamala as a result) has now pledged to have a cabinet that is 150% female and minority.

    Here is a picture of Biden's cabinet:

    https://www.history.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_700/MTYwNjk3OTQ4MDg5MzYyNDA3/black-legislators-reconstruction-gettyimages-170482961.webp

    Sorry, just kidding. There is a recent PBS show on Reconstruction. The first elections after the Civil War banned white people from voting so this was the Mississippi congressional delegation. The question is, how long before the backlash? White people might accept 2nd class citizenship for a little while but even liberals are going to get pissed when they find out that our leadership wants them to die in the name of equity.

    Replies: @John Johnson, @Lurker

    Or more like this?

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Lurker

    Les Misérables?

    Also, OT:


    ‘I’m a f***ing teacher!’: Woman has MELTDOWN at Oregon anti-lockdown protesters, gets dubbed ‘Subaru Karen’

    https://twitter.com/SixSalt/status/1335944758552797184

    The thought arises that we behaved like that in elementary school during recess or afterwards in the wilderness/woods playing cowboy and indians or democratic plantation owner / cotton picker (just joking) not under "adult supervision" scanning for cusswords, sexual innuendo, references to Hitler and gas chambers and other thoughtcrime. After some time, we grew up. Maybe there is a whole episode that's just been dropped in these people's life which is why they still _are_ at elementary.

  135. If it works as advertised, then the general public will begin to benefit as a whole once any group starts getting immunized.
    It’s a shame the common good isn’t even a legitimate outcome for these people, just spite, revenge for imaginary slights and humiliation of 60% of the population based on race.

  136. “Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer.

    The main reason is that older populations tend to reflect the country’s ethnic makeup more than 65 years ago.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Peter Frost

    Partly that and partly that whites have somewhat longer life expectancy than blacks.

    However, Hispanics and Asians are longer still.

    White 78.6
    Hispanic 81.9
    Black 75.0
    Asian 86.3

  137. @utu
    Harald Schmidt, MA, PhD
    London School of Economics and Political Science (United Kingdom), PhD, Health & Public Policy
    Universität Münster (Germany), MA, Philosophy

    “Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.
     


    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @TTSSYF, @AnotherDad, @Anonymous, @Single and Ready to Drop Red Pills

    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.

    Here is another manifestation of the same underlying agenda: The government should write off student loan debt because blacks and Browns have higher default rates.

    • Replies: @Arclight
    @Anonymous

    Because maybe we shouldn't lend to as many aspiring black and Latino college students is inconceivable.

  138. anon[205] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    Of course you are 100% right but you are casting pearls before swine. The anti-vaxxers /just the flu bros (it's usually bros for some reason) will not listen to facts or reason. They have their own "facts" and reasons and trying to persuade them otherwise is just wasted breath. The really sad cases are the ones who are literally dying of Covid and they deny that Covid exists until their last breath.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @anon, @vhrm

    The really sad cases are the ones who are literally dying of Covid and they deny that Covid exists until their last breath.

    Which is exactly no one. That was documented. This meme went viral based on an interview with a single nurse and was wildly popular on CNN because it slandered the red flyover states and quickly generalized to apply to all Trump supporters.

    It was investigated in some depth by a Wired mag reporter, and followed up on by Fox.

    And part of a larger effort to retroactively eradicate Democratic anti vaxxer activities prior to the election. Just saying.

  139. @That Would Be Telling
    @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia


    Shouldn’t give it to the nursing home and rehab patients at the start–you should give it first to the people who WORK there, because they are mostly minority, and they mostly take the bus and subway or live in lower class crowded communities.
     
    As discussed in the previous iSteve topic, I suspect it's a question of logistics. While you vaccinate as many workers as possible in the period before and after a shift change, while you're there you might as well also get all the patients. Time spent by vaccination crews traveling from A to B is entirely wasted.

    This of course isn't so compelling while the vaccines are in extremely short supply and manpower to vaccinate exceeds the vaccine supply, but that will change in due course; maybe this tactical detail should change with that.

    There's also the issue that the mRNA vaccines top out at what I've gathered is a normal for a good, "active" vaccine efficacy of 95%, so at big enough facilities, you won't be ring fencing the vulnerable patients. You also need to hit anyone who visits facilities for whatever reasons if it's likely they might transmit COVID-19 directly to patients, so maybe not Sysco in the US delivering food, but you'd need to get maintenance people for whatever might need fixing in patients' rooms.

    Replies: @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia, @BenKenobi

    That Would Be Telling:

    May 2020: 8 comments
    June 2020: 4 comments
    July 2020: 2 comments
    August 2020: 1 comment
    September 2020: 3 comments
    October 2020: 5 comments
    November 2020: 192 comments
    December 2020: 156 comments in the first week so far

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @BenKenobi

    Thanks to That Would Be Telling for contributing so many well-informed comments now that vaccines are in the news lately.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

  140. Anonymous[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Moreover, vaccine trial results so far show only that the shots can protect the individuals who receive them. The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others.
     
    Steve makes such a big deal about this, but is it really so important? Doesn't it only mean that someone who already has Covid, but is not symptomatic, might get the shot? So you're talking about a window of a week or so, for presumably a single digit percentage of the population? These "vaccinated but infectious" people would not be a big threat overall, and you just keep your eyes on the prize of large-scale vaccination, turning these outliers into staistical noise as their numbers shrink.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Anonymous

    The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others.

    Steve makes such a big deal about this, but is it really so important? Doesn’t it only mean that someone who already has Covid, but is not symptomatic, might get the shot?

    Vaccinations most important effect is not to protect the person who is vaccinated. As far as I know, no vaccine confers absolute immunity to all who take it. The purpose of mass vaccination is to reduce the rate of transmission. If each newly infected person will infect two others, then the disease will obviously spread quickly. If fewer than one person (on average) is infected, then the disease will eventually die out.

    Here’s how it works in a bit more detail:

    Suppose that the natural infection rate is two, but that 2/3 of the population has been vaccinated. then 2 out of every 3 infections is stopped, and each newly infected person only infects 2*(1-1/3) = 2/3 (fewer than one) other people. The epidemic ends.
    If the vaccination only confers 80% immunity, than not as many infections are prevented, and the newly infected person infects 2*(1 – .8*2/3)=0.933 people, still fewer than one. The epidemic still ends, just a bit later. And the immunized person who thought himself immune would have a 20%, 1 in 5, chance of becoming infected if exposed to the disease. That’s a substantial risk. The largest benefit is the end of the epidemic, not individual immunity. Ending the epidemic reduces chance of getting the disease to 0, which is less than 1 in 5.

    So a “COVID-19 vaccine” that doesn’t prevent new infections is as unlikely to render COVID-19 extinct as aspirins are to end headaches, or AID medications are to end AIDS. The common understanding of the word “vaccine” as stopping epidemics by conferring immunity is disregarded, and a new meaning for the word is defined — without explicitly telling anybody of the redefinition.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Anonymous


    So a “COVID-19 vaccine” that doesn’t prevent new infections is as unlikely to render COVID-19 extinct as aspirins are to end headaches, or AID medications are to end AIDS. The common understanding of the word “vaccine” as stopping epidemics by conferring immunity is disregarded, and a new meaning for the word is defined — without explicitly telling anybody of the redefinition.
     
    And thus we have to hope our judgement is correct that for those for whom these vaccines take, ~95% perhaps minus a few percent because their immune systems are extra special, will not be able to get asymptotic COVID-19 and transmit it to others. This theory backed up by comparing the serological (blood) immune responses of those who got COVID-19 and those who got the vaccine. Only difference I know of, granted I haven't researched this, is that the former also has a reaction to the nucleocapid protein instead of just the spike protein.

    Your claim this is being "redefined" fails hard, and is surprising after the head of Pfizer took so much s*** for truthfully answering this question about his/BioNTech's vaccine.
  141. If People of Color go first, there will be out cries that they are being experimented upon. See: Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment.

    If People of Color go at the same time, there will be out cries that their over representation in impacted groups; e.g., service workers; are being ignored.

    If People of Color go last, there will be out cries that they are being pushed to be back of the bus and whites are being given priority.

    No matter what happens, there will be something to complain about.

  142. @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia
    Shouldn't give it to the nursing home and rehab patients at the start--you should give it first to the people who WORK there, because they are mostly minority, and they mostly take the bus and subway or live in lower class crowded communities.

    How many cases can be attributed to Kaneesha getting the Wuhan from a virus laden bedpan of feces from infected 90 year old Uncle Johnny, and then going home and then spreading the sucker at a house party?

    It's an epidemiological study just screaming to be done, especially with NYC data, which means it won't happen, most likely.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Technite78, @Bernardista

    You’ve got it backward. Kaneesha has contracted the Wuhan from partying at an Airbnb party with 100 of her closest friends; she then passes it to 90 year old Uncle Johnny when she brings him his food while not wearing her mask properly.

    If the vaccine is effective in reducing the spread, then it makes sense to give it to those who are in contact the the most people. If it’s not effective in reducing the spread, it makes more sense to give it to the most vulnerable to severe symptoms.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Technite78

    Right, so does anybody have a methodology for answering how much the vaccine slows spread?

    Replies: @J.Ross

  143. @Peter Frost
    “Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer.

    The main reason is that older populations tend to reflect the country's ethnic makeup more than 65 years ago.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Partly that and partly that whites have somewhat longer life expectancy than blacks.

    However, Hispanics and Asians are longer still.

    White 78.6
    Hispanic 81.9
    Black 75.0
    Asian 86.3

  144. Still, some people believe it is wrong to give racial and socioeconomic equity more weight than who is most likely to die

    Some people are Deplorable!

    This reminds me of the Ghost of Christmas Present throwing Scrooge’s words back at him:

    If he be like to die, he had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

    Die you Deplorable white people, and make room for vibrant BLACK people.

  145. @Lockean Proviso
    “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.”

    So it’s just a start to shortening the unjustly long lifespans of whites. We still need to Do Better. What else can be done to correct this disparity? Maybe moving predatory ghetto blacks into safe white neighborhoods, demoralizing whites by making clear that their future is no longer rosy even if they make good decisions, destroying opportunities to start and work for independent local businesses, and ensuring that whites are consume junk foods to obesity and drugs to addiction. Seems like the project is proceeding well, with mounting death of despair rates promising to continue their increase into the future.

    Replies: @Charon, @Single and Ready to Drop Red Pills

    As always, money provides the best inoculation. Make lots of it and keep it safe. It’s much harder for anyone to torment you if you own the roof over your head and don’t depend on a salary.

  146. @utu
    Harald Schmidt, MA, PhD
    London School of Economics and Political Science (United Kingdom), PhD, Health & Public Policy
    Universität Münster (Germany), MA, Philosophy

    “Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.
     


    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @TTSSYF, @AnotherDad, @Anonymous, @Single and Ready to Drop Red Pills

    What about American Jews’ life expectancy, average net worth, average level of healthcare coverage, Dr Schmidt?

  147. @That Would Be Telling
    @Clifford Brown


    The smart approach would be to focus on over-75 year olds and maybe only immunize 50% of essential workers. That way if something goes wrong with the vaccine we do not lose all of our doctors, nurses and first responders at one fell swoop.

    There remain concerns over whether mRNA vaccines may trigger autoimmune diseases.

    Have mRNA vaccines ever been used outside of the clinical context?
     
    What relevance does your last sentence have, besides belaboring the point that this is the first time mRNA vaccines have been tried for real, which no one denies?

    Based on the biology, the theory, we expect the extreme simplicity of mRNA vaccines, their only hitting a few of your cells with just a stabilized version of the spike protein, to result in their being the safest COVID-19 vaccines of all, which is why both companies started animal testing and Phase I human trials in parallel, a gamble which paid off fantastically.

    Which of course does not fully address your question, but you need to explain why your concerns don't apply even more forcefully to getting a normal infection from the wild type virus, hitting many, many more cells. Not knowing hardly enough about the immune system, I can't rule out there being a dangerous difference, but if we take your precautionary principle too far, we should never get out of bed in the morning. As of now, we're going by the metric that bad vaccine reactions overwhelmingly show up in the first month and a half, the FDA thus requiring two months of safety data.

    mRNA vaccines were developed to fight cancer, but have been found ineffective to date....
     
    Citation Needed, and seeing as how we don't have non-mRNA vaccines against human cancers, I fail to see the relevance, you're now shifting the goalposts to efficacy.

    In the end, isn’t the issue moot as there will be subsequent vaccines required every six months until death, correct? It is possible that you might have to take this vaccine (and the updates COVID-20, COVID-21, ad infinitum) every 90 to 120 days.
     
    That of course requires a COVID-20, and COVID-21 etc. appearing, when we're averaging perhaps one a decade, and only this one being highly transmittable. If they do so on a 90-120 day cadence, that's enemy action, and a credible threat of sterilizing the source with nuclear hellfire is a lot more direct way of addressing the problem. Sort of like how "active" vaccines like the mRNA ones are frequently preferred because I gather they provide a stronger immune system response against infected cells, stop it at the source.

    Otherwise, two things make this worry less likely: coronaviruses have a unique among RNA viruses proofreading mechanism, thus they mutate at well over 1/10the the rate, and we hope what the immune system latches onto on the spike protein is "conserved." Immunity in exactly the same way infections by the wild type virus induce, always remember that's the alternative, except those also hit the I assume mostly structural and therefore perhaps less conserved nucleocapsid protein.

    Replies: @Thoughts, @YetAnotherAnon

    In theory world, you are right.

    In powerpoint, in the classroom, on the blackboard…you are 100% correct

    But in the real world….Sh** happens

    And the reason why we can’t argue with you is because We Don’t Know what Sh** Will Happen

    No one thought the Pandemrix Vaccination would cause Narcoplepsy in 1300 people in Scandinavia

    It took years for them to figure out what sh** exactly happened

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Thoughts


    But in the real world….Sh** happens

    And the reason why we can’t argue with you is because We Don’t Know what Sh** Will Happen
     
    One of the many reasons you can't argue with me is because I don't tolerate your lying about what I said. Because the message you're replying to but do not quote starts with acknowledging this is the first real test of mRNA vaccines.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    @Thoughts

    Hmm. This does sound awfully familiar - an exotic bug from China, a rush for a vaccine, legal indemnity for the drug company, Dr Fauci being reassuring.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3948


    Eight years after the pandemic influenza outbreak, a lawsuit alleging that GlaxoSmithKline’s Pandemrix vaccine caused narcolepsy has unearthed internal reports suggesting problems with the vaccine’s safety. Peter Doshi asks what this means for the future of transparency during public health emergencies

    In October 2009, the US National Institutes of Health infectious diseases chief, Anthony Fauci, appeared on YouTube to reassure Americans about the safety of the “swine flu” vaccine. “The track record for serious adverse events is very good. It’s very, very, very rare that you ever see anything that’s associated with the vaccine that’s a serious event,”1 he said.

    Four months earlier, the World Health Organization had declared H1N1 influenza a pandemic, and by October 2009 the new vaccines were being rolled out across the world. A similar story was playing out in the UK, with prominent organisations, including the Department of Health, British Medical Association, and Royal Colleges of General Practitioners, working hard to convince a reluctant NHS workforce to get vaccinated.2 “We fully support the swine flu vaccination programme … The vaccine has been thoroughly tested,” they declared in a joint statement.3

    Except, it hadn’t. Anticipating a severe influenza pandemic, governments around the world had made various logistical and legal arrangements to shorten the time between recognition of a pandemic virus and the production of a vaccine and administration of that vaccine in the population. In Europe, one element of those plans was an agreement to grant licences to pandemic vaccines based on data from pre-pandemic “mock-up” vaccines produced using a different virus (H5N1 influenza). Another element, adopted by countries such as Canada, the US, UK, France, and Germany, was to provide vaccine manufacturers indemnity from liability for wrongdoing, thereby reducing the risk of a lawsuit stemming from vaccine related injury.45
     

    https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy

    The UK Health Protection Agency (now Public Health England) undertook a major study of 4- to 18-year-olds and found that around one in every 55,000 jabs led to narcolepsy.

    Now that's not a lot, but if the whole UK population had that jab there'd be over a thousand people with a lifelong, incurable ailment with a major quality of life impact. Society isn't structured for people who fall asleep at the drop of a hat. Bang goes that train driver job.

    "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my father, not screaming in terror like his passengers"

    PS - I see another China bug, bird flu, is back. All UK domestic fowl are supposed to be indoors.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Jack D

  148. @That Would Be Telling
    @candid_observer


    I suppose this fits in with previous outlines offered up by the CDC, but it seems odd to lay out a detailed plan before the CDC makes its final decision, if the states don’t have the final say.
     
    I think you're missing a step here, for the CDC has made its final recommendation, it was covered two topics ago here on iSteve. Turning those into requirements as a condition of getting Operation Warp Speed (OWS) delivered vaccines would be done elsewhere, to the extent it's done at all.

    But given how crazy the Left has become, I can see conditions like, sorry, but a no jabs for whitey policy won't fly. Also see federalism, the inane Chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot quoted earlier by @Jack D might be confusing Illinois requirements for Federal ones, or Illinois is perfectly capable of making their own s*** up and blaming it on the Feds.

    In fact, as long as Trump is in the White House, and this is the "Trump Shot," expect the usual suspects to continue to be the howling monkeys they've been since they was realized sometime in 2016 he had a real shot, so to speak, of becoming President. Even if they didn't admit it, things like Obama's literal mike drop skit showed deep down a lot on the Left realized he was dangerous.

    Replies: @candid_observer

    If these are the final recommendations of the CDC, then they are dangerously incompetent.

    The category of essential workers as usually defined is 90Million people — the vast majority of which are not in any way vulnerable to serious consequences if they contract Covid. I gather we will be able to vaccinate maybe 25M people per month. Even supposing it’s 30M, we’d be talking a 3 month delay to cover all essential workers. The idea that any member of a genuinely vulnerable population would be subject to Covid waiting for these people to be vaccinated is morally and socially obscene. It would be a public health catastrophe and disgrace of historic proportions to allow that to happen, when it can be known perfectly well in advance how this will play out.

    Now, maybe the states will define “essential workers” very narrowly, so that the worst part of this is minimized. But the idea that the CDC would leave open the possibility that a governor might cast the category over a vast number of people with extremely low vulnerability already demonstrates their incompetence.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @candid_observer

    What was the point of locking down the economy/travel if we aren’t going to give the vaccine people at the highest risk of death/hospitalization first? If the old are to continue isolating until after the cashiers and grocery store workers get it, couldn’t we have kept schools open? And a whole host of other things? And just told the old people to stay at home from the beginning?

    The U.S is such a joke.

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @candid_observer


    If these are the final recommendations of the CDC, then they are dangerously incompetent.
     
    We may be reading too much into what's a set of slides, normally a presentation like that is backed up with more detail in a paper or memo. We've also noted that if Lightfoot is correct, conditions as a requirement for getting doses are being imposed by the Feds, likely by HHS' Operation Warp Speed (OWS), there's a reason they put a general who was previously in command of all the military's logistics in charge of that facet of OWS. The CDC is only providing their input into the real plan, and for all we know will be entirely ignored. Given that this is the CDC, that would likely be wise, they're very bad at what's now unfashionable infectious disease control.

    You might want to wait a little bit before getting too upset at the difference between a plan finally put into Action This Day like in the U.K., and planning which is still awaiting FDA EUA application approval before it becomes a concrete mission. Among other things, suppose the FDA's take on the data puts unexpected restrictions on who can get the vaccine in this EUA for Pfizer/BioNTech? We're likely to learn more details then, and we should expect them to change, "no plan survives contact with the enemy."

    The only possibly legitimate beef I see you having is the time the FDA is taking to act on the Pfizer/BioNTech application and we presume the Moderna (which I don't think the U.K. is slated to get any time soon), and that's still part of the risk/reward trade-off. Especially since these two mRNA vaccines are "Trump Shots," the FDA is not acting in even vaguely the same political environment the U.K. regulators and their equivalent of OWS is.
  149. @Anon
    Im afraid someday employers will use vaccination schedules as a reason not to hire prospective workers. Then people will be pretty much forced to get the latest vaccine or be unhireable. The government gets a third party enforcer of its edicts, kinda like digital platforms (facebook, twitter, youtube, and google) pseudo-policing speech.

    Replies: @vhrm, @Forbes

    Afraid? Count on it. Vaccination certificate to get hired, to book a flight, to stay in a hotel, rent a car, to enter a building–the possibilities are endless.

    If a movie theatre or other premises can enforce a ‘gun-free’ zone, or otherwise restrict your Constitutional right to a gun–surely they can demand you be vaccinated, i.e. disease-free.

    “Your papers, please” required everywhere but the voting booth on election day. And you must welcome your new overlords with enthusiastic gusto–don’t be the first one to stop applauding their speech.

  150. @Guy De Champlagne
    @Hhsiii

    It makes a lot of sense to give it to old people, since they have highest fatality rate and have the shortest time left here to develop long term symptoms.

    It also makes sense to give it to medical personnel because not only are they uniquely at risk but they have also been fleecing us for their whole careers, so any problems will just offset the unfair advantages their place in the medical system has given them. Let the pharmaceutical companies kill some of their own this time.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Hhsiii

    Those groups going first I get. I’m toward the back of the line and doesn’t bother me.

  151. @candid_observer
    @That Would Be Telling

    If these are the final recommendations of the CDC, then they are dangerously incompetent.

    The category of essential workers as usually defined is 90Million people -- the vast majority of which are not in any way vulnerable to serious consequences if they contract Covid. I gather we will be able to vaccinate maybe 25M people per month. Even supposing it's 30M, we'd be talking a 3 month delay to cover all essential workers. The idea that any member of a genuinely vulnerable population would be subject to Covid waiting for these people to be vaccinated is morally and socially obscene. It would be a public health catastrophe and disgrace of historic proportions to allow that to happen, when it can be known perfectly well in advance how this will play out.

    Now, maybe the states will define "essential workers" very narrowly, so that the worst part of this is minimized. But the idea that the CDC would leave open the possibility that a governor might cast the category over a vast number of people with extremely low vulnerability already demonstrates their incompetence.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @That Would Be Telling

    What was the point of locking down the economy/travel if we aren’t going to give the vaccine people at the highest risk of death/hospitalization first? If the old are to continue isolating until after the cashiers and grocery store workers get it, couldn’t we have kept schools open? And a whole host of other things? And just told the old people to stay at home from the beginning?

    The U.S is such a joke.

  152. In an ideal world the first people to be vaccinated would be non-elderly people with serious medical conditions caused by no fault of their own. For example, people who have cancer or heart disease due to genetics or bad luck or other non-blameworthy factors. In contrast, heavy smokers or men who can’t see their feet would get lower priority even if their conditions are worse.

  153. @Lurker
    @Jack D

    Or more like this?

    https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/05/02/portland-arrests_custom-818bbea6beee412b8f8e378f85cdf5818fef01c2-s800-c15.jpg

    Replies: @El Dato

    Les Misérables?

    Also, OT:

    ‘I’m a f***ing teacher!’: Woman has MELTDOWN at Oregon anti-lockdown protesters, gets dubbed ‘Subaru Karen’

    https://twitter.com/SixSalt/status/1335944758552797184

    The thought arises that we behaved like that in elementary school during recess or afterwards in the wilderness/woods playing cowboy and indians or democratic plantation owner / cotton picker (just joking) not under “adult supervision” scanning for cusswords, sexual innuendo, references to Hitler and gas chambers and other thoughtcrime. After some time, we grew up. Maybe there is a whole episode that’s just been dropped in these people’s life which is why they still _are_ at elementary.

  154. Personally I would be fine with prioritizing workers over the elderly, but obviously the definition of essential worker is far too broad. Let’s start with healthcare workers, teachers/daycare, and public transportation.

  155. @Jack D
    @clyde


    I might get the vaccine after a year, after I see what complications, paralysis and deaths come about..
     
    That assumes you are still alive after a year. We already know what complications, paralysis and deaths come about for the 1st 60 days after get the vaccine - basically none after giving it to tens of thousands of volunteers, and we also know that most complications, paralysis and deaths from vaccines come about within that window. Is there SOME possibility that complications, paralysis and deaths come about after the 60 day window? Yes, but the possibility is very small. We also know what complications, paralysis and deaths come about from getting Covid itself and those risks are vastly higher than the risks from the vaccine.

    There's no way I would get this vaccine if it didn't protect me from some dangerous disease like Covid which is running wild thru the community. I always tell people that you gotta be nuts to undergo unnecessary procedures like cosmetic surgery. If things were the way they were in my community over the summer I probably would have waited. But right now the epidemic is burning out of control. You balance the risk against the reward.

    Replies: @Nico, @J.Ross, @clyde

    There’s no way I would get this vaccine if it didn’t protect me from some dangerous disease like Covid which is running wild thru the community.

    COVID-19 is dangerous almost exclusively to people who don’t know how to skip the fries and order a damn salad every now and then. Some 90% of hospitalized (not just in critical care) COVID-19 patients are obese, are diabetic or have coronary antecedents. 50% of hospitalized patients meet the criteria for metabolic syndrome (which as a diagnosis isn’t much more than the sum of its parts), meaning more than one such condition, which indicates that COVID-19’s dangerosity is overwhelmingly a product of a poor lifestyle, not genetics as pig-out apologists like Lindy West like to put out in front. The elderly are disproportionately represented because the windfall of poor lifestyle choices is more likely to show up the more the years pass. Their lower V02max and lower immune vigor does not help, but it does not even come close to explaining the disparities as well as does metabolic mayhem.

    I think some serious fat shaming is long overdue about now.

    • Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    @Nico

    I think some serious fat shaming is long overdue about now.
     

    I agree, but since teh fatness is now known to be a disease, and nobody's fault when it decides to strike--especially when it decides to strike women of color--there's really nothing to be done about it. Gaah, I love these fries!

    Edit: what the hay...even though everyone's already seen it...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMitjMTi__4

    Sigh... SNL wouldn't dare do a skit like that anymore.

    Replies: @Nico

    , @Clyde
    @Nico

    Agree. Very well stated. "Gotta be cruel to be kind" ---
    Over the top fatness is obesity and is pretty much a guarantee of diabetes, undiagnosed diabetes, pre-diabetes, future diabetes. You are blowing out your liver/gall bladder and your insulin regulation mechanisms.

    Covid can be serious for the obese and the diabetic and this means millions and millions of Americans. Those with lung problems too.

  156. ALERT

    A defector from China on Chinese government plans on using violence against the election challenge team.

    https://twitter.com/freedom202017/status/1335811453727600642

  157. @anon
    Suppose a significant number of black people do not want the vaccine for reasons.

    What then?

    Replies: @william munny, @Adam Smith, @bomag, @Uncle Dan

    Suppose a significant number of black people do not want the vaccine for reasons… What then?

    Blame Whitey.

    • Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    @bomag

    Exactly. With their generally nightmarish health habits, more will sicken and more will die, and every single instance will be yet more evidence of how as a society we need to tighten the screws even further on legacy wypipos what wit they supremacy and they oppression and they anti-blackness.

  158. http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/2020/12/damn-elves.html

    At link, somebody complained to police that “white people” are putting up Christmas decorations in a “black neighborhood.” Oh, and they’re failing to social distance, so they might be infecting each other. Somehow I believe that the blacks whose neighborhood is being decorated for them are probaby safe.

  159. Real simple: by tax bracket regardless of any other criteria. The more you pay, the sooner you are vaccinated. This is another way of rewarding contribution, and it makes clear the point thta virtune signaling, preaching diversity, protesting nonexistent police violence contributes NOTHING.

  160. Oh boy,

    More of Satan’s three ring circle jerk!

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/political-theatre/overwhelming-testimony-of-doctors/

    Every single last word of covid-19 remains a God Damned Lie.

  161. @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    Of course you are 100% right but you are casting pearls before swine. The anti-vaxxers /just the flu bros (it's usually bros for some reason) will not listen to facts or reason. They have their own "facts" and reasons and trying to persuade them otherwise is just wasted breath. The really sad cases are the ones who are literally dying of Covid and they deny that Covid exists until their last breath.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @anon, @vhrm

    The really sad cases are the ones who are literally dying of Covid and they deny that Covid exists until their last breath.

    I believe you’ve already been apprised that this meme has no basis except the claims of a frustrated young nurse in South Dakota whose sentiment was not corroborated by others in the area.

    It doesn’t exclude the possibility that done people feel this way, but is there any support for that other than this one woman’s claims?

    (https://www.nationalreview.com/news/nurse-goes-viral-claiming-dying-patients-deny-covid-reality-her-hospital-colleagues-arent-so-sure/ )

    • Agree: Polynikes
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @vhrm

    Here's a different case:

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/30-year-man-dies-attending-covid-party-thinking/story?id=71731414

    and another:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/517454-former-nashville-official-who-publicly-doubted-covid-19-dies-of-virus

  162. @candid_observer
    @That Would Be Telling

    If these are the final recommendations of the CDC, then they are dangerously incompetent.

    The category of essential workers as usually defined is 90Million people -- the vast majority of which are not in any way vulnerable to serious consequences if they contract Covid. I gather we will be able to vaccinate maybe 25M people per month. Even supposing it's 30M, we'd be talking a 3 month delay to cover all essential workers. The idea that any member of a genuinely vulnerable population would be subject to Covid waiting for these people to be vaccinated is morally and socially obscene. It would be a public health catastrophe and disgrace of historic proportions to allow that to happen, when it can be known perfectly well in advance how this will play out.

    Now, maybe the states will define "essential workers" very narrowly, so that the worst part of this is minimized. But the idea that the CDC would leave open the possibility that a governor might cast the category over a vast number of people with extremely low vulnerability already demonstrates their incompetence.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @That Would Be Telling

    If these are the final recommendations of the CDC, then they are dangerously incompetent.

    We may be reading too much into what’s a set of slides, normally a presentation like that is backed up with more detail in a paper or memo. We’ve also noted that if Lightfoot is correct, conditions as a requirement for getting doses are being imposed by the Feds, likely by HHS’ Operation Warp Speed (OWS), there’s a reason they put a general who was previously in command of all the military’s logistics in charge of that facet of OWS. The CDC is only providing their input into the real plan, and for all we know will be entirely ignored. Given that this is the CDC, that would likely be wise, they’re very bad at what’s now unfashionable infectious disease control.

    You might want to wait a little bit before getting too upset at the difference between a plan finally put into Action This Day like in the U.K., and planning which is still awaiting FDA EUA application approval before it becomes a concrete mission. Among other things, suppose the FDA’s take on the data puts unexpected restrictions on who can get the vaccine in this EUA for Pfizer/BioNTech? We’re likely to learn more details then, and we should expect them to change, “no plan survives contact with the enemy.”

    The only possibly legitimate beef I see you having is the time the FDA is taking to act on the Pfizer/BioNTech application and we presume the Moderna (which I don’t think the U.K. is slated to get any time soon), and that’s still part of the risk/reward trade-off. Especially since these two mRNA vaccines are “Trump Shots,” the FDA is not acting in even vaguely the same political environment the U.K. regulators and their equivalent of OWS is.

  163. OT Heather MacDonald just stepped in it. Nothing new there for iSteve readers.

    Will City Journal retract, is the question.

  164. @anon
    All of this talk of rationing assumes that the supply is extremely limited. It will actually only be like that for a few months, if that.

    The time spent arguing about who should get priority would be better spent trying to increase production or improve distribution.

    Also many of the limits will be on distribution and getting people to volunteer to take the vaccine where and when it is available. If someone wants to get the vaccine, you should probably just let them take it, whether they absolutely need it or not.

    ---

    Another good rule of thumb is that if the right thing to do isn't obvious, we should just copy what the chinese are doing, since they seem to be good at staying focused with these things.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    The time spent arguing about who should get priority would be better spent trying to increase production or improve distribution.

    The people who spend the time arguing are not the same people who spend time increasing production and improving distribution. Those are 2 different “skill” sets.

    Another good rule of thumb is that if the right thing to do isn’t obvious, we should just copy what the chinese are doing, since they seem to be good at staying focused with these things.

    NO, JUST NO! Following the Chinese into Orwellian stupidity is the last thing we ought to do. You need to get a different thumb for your rules.

  165. @RoatanBill
    It would appear that the goal is to create the impression of a shortage more so than the one that actually exists in order to create the demand in the population for this forbidden fruit.

    'You can't have it' in the minds of many will make them clamor for it all the more. This is reverse psychology on the weak of mind.

    I hope that so many people will refuse the vaccine that that becomes the real problem for the pushers of this largely manufactured pandemic.

    Replies: @anonymous, @Guest007, @J.Ross, @anon, @Achmed E. Newman, @Jonathan Mason

    Can’t seem to do an [Agree] today. Agree.

  166. @Jack D
    @clyde


    I might get the vaccine after a year, after I see what complications, paralysis and deaths come about..
     
    That assumes you are still alive after a year. We already know what complications, paralysis and deaths come about for the 1st 60 days after get the vaccine - basically none after giving it to tens of thousands of volunteers, and we also know that most complications, paralysis and deaths from vaccines come about within that window. Is there SOME possibility that complications, paralysis and deaths come about after the 60 day window? Yes, but the possibility is very small. We also know what complications, paralysis and deaths come about from getting Covid itself and those risks are vastly higher than the risks from the vaccine.

    There's no way I would get this vaccine if it didn't protect me from some dangerous disease like Covid which is running wild thru the community. I always tell people that you gotta be nuts to undergo unnecessary procedures like cosmetic surgery. If things were the way they were in my community over the summer I probably would have waited. But right now the epidemic is burning out of control. You balance the risk against the reward.

    Replies: @Nico, @J.Ross, @clyde

    I’m trying not to just quote all of SCC — apparently there was a small flash riot on Sunday — but one of its most interesting posts in quite some time alleges that at least one restaurant will let you dine in normally, in a room without street-facing windows, on the logic that the people illegally enjoying a normal restaurant experience are a “private party” in the “VIP room,” which would still be illegal anyway because of their numbers. And there’s all the Democrat governors and mayors doing whatever the hell they want, sometimes hours after commanding their subjects to give up Christmas. So yeah I don’t see your respondent falling victim to deadly danger unless he encounters a youth hoping to pay for college or a Bidentrooper inquiring about boating accidents. As John Hinderaker recently pointed out, snobbery is one thing, but why would an egotist expose himself to possible death? He would only do so if he were confident that the danger was controlled, or not real.
    https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/12/rules-are-for-the-little-people.php
    http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/2020/12/operating-in-plain-sight.html

  167. @Jack D
    @clyde


    I might get the vaccine after a year, after I see what complications, paralysis and deaths come about..
     
    That assumes you are still alive after a year. We already know what complications, paralysis and deaths come about for the 1st 60 days after get the vaccine - basically none after giving it to tens of thousands of volunteers, and we also know that most complications, paralysis and deaths from vaccines come about within that window. Is there SOME possibility that complications, paralysis and deaths come about after the 60 day window? Yes, but the possibility is very small. We also know what complications, paralysis and deaths come about from getting Covid itself and those risks are vastly higher than the risks from the vaccine.

    There's no way I would get this vaccine if it didn't protect me from some dangerous disease like Covid which is running wild thru the community. I always tell people that you gotta be nuts to undergo unnecessary procedures like cosmetic surgery. If things were the way they were in my community over the summer I probably would have waited. But right now the epidemic is burning out of control. You balance the risk against the reward.

    Replies: @Nico, @J.Ross, @clyde

    Go get your covid vaccine but I would not try to rush out there to be first, nearly first or among the first 5%.

  168. My local news pointed out that not only would many blacks refuse the vaccine because of Tuskegee, but also many Jews would refuse because of Auschwitz and Dr. Mengele’s experiments.

    As I’m sure everyone knows, Pfizer was founded by a German-American named Karl Pfizer and his German cousin in the nineteenth century. Although the local news didn’t mention that Pfizer was founded by Germans.

    Any group of people who think that the current year is AM 5781 would count the founding of Pfizer in 1849 CE as being practically yesterday.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Anon7


    My local news pointed out that not only would many blacks refuse the vaccine because of Tuskegee, but also many Jews would refuse because of Auschwitz and Dr. Mengele’s experiments.

    As I’m sure everyone knows, Pfizer was founded by a German-American named Karl Pfizer and his German cousin in the nineteenth century. Although the local news didn’t mention that Pfizer was founded by Germans.
     
    Then you'd best not tell them the vaccine actually comes from the German company BioNTech ... except the head of it is a Turk, and was co-founded with his self-described "Prussian Turk" wife. Which the usual suspects are of course making a big deal of.
  169. @vhrm
    @Jack D


    The really sad cases are the ones who are literally dying of Covid and they deny that Covid exists until their last breath.
     
    I believe you've already been apprised that this meme has no basis except the claims of a frustrated young nurse in South Dakota whose sentiment was not corroborated by others in the area.

    It doesn't exclude the possibility that done people feel this way, but is there any support for that other than this one woman's claims?

    (https://www.nationalreview.com/news/nurse-goes-viral-claiming-dying-patients-deny-covid-reality-her-hospital-colleagues-arent-so-sure/ )

    Replies: @Jack D

  170. @Technite78
    @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia

    You've got it backward. Kaneesha has contracted the Wuhan from partying at an Airbnb party with 100 of her closest friends; she then passes it to 90 year old Uncle Johnny when she brings him his food while not wearing her mask properly.

    If the vaccine is effective in reducing the spread, then it makes sense to give it to those who are in contact the the most people. If it's not effective in reducing the spread, it makes more sense to give it to the most vulnerable to severe symptoms.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Right, so does anybody have a methodology for answering how much the vaccine slows spread?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Steve Sailer

    Oh Steve, you'd need a test to do that. A real one. This is some medieval stuff. Normally you can say "there's no flubbing a dead body" but even there it's heart disease and motorcycles. It's the Democrat Plague, it threatens us when Democrat politicians say it does, so therefore it must be a threat no longer when Democrat politicians say it isn't. This at least explains why the Democrats don't need to respect the same precautions.

  171. @BenKenobi
    @That Would Be Telling

    That Would Be Telling:

    May 2020: 8 comments
    June 2020: 4 comments
    July 2020: 2 comments
    August 2020: 1 comment
    September 2020: 3 comments
    October 2020: 5 comments
    November 2020: 192 comments
    December 2020: 156 comments in the first week so far

    https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fentries%2Ficons%2Ffacebook%2F000%2F006%2F026%2FNOTSUREIF.jpg

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Thanks to That Would Be Telling for contributing so many well-informed comments now that vaccines are in the news lately.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    @Steve Sailer

    Et tu, Steve-a-rino?

    , @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    @Steve Sailer

    Yep, I was going to say the same. You don't have to agree with everything someone says to recognize responsible and informative contributions when and where they occur.

    I was going to ask: Who is this new contributor, who seems so wise in the ways of science? But then I realized, s/he'd respond: That Would Be Telling.

    https://miro.medium.com/max/1600/1*FWFLectkkqVecJewKKqVIQ.jpeg

    Replies: @J.Ross

  172. Fever of 105 is CRAZY

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9026685/Nurse-took-Pfizers-coronavirus-vaccine-trial-said-highest-fever-life.html

    This corroborates what iSteve’s own commentator said (which Steve dismissed)

    Can’t fevers kill people? Did you know that a high fever can at least temporarily sterilize men? A 105 degree fever could take out 3 months of sperm production

    I’ve never taken a vaccine in my life that caused any reaction like this

    I also think it’s interesting that she’s halfwhitehalfasian and had severe side effects, different genetics are affected differently…

  173. @Guest007
    @RoatanBill

    Refusing to get vaccinated will just drag out the pandemic and make the economic and social recovery weakrer. As long as 1k or more are dying each day from Covid-19, there is no return to normal.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @RoatanBill

    Right, the anti-vaxxers are just playing into the hands of The Great Reset people. The sooner the pandemic is over due to vaccination, the faster The Great Reset turns into yesterday’s uncool idea.

    • Troll: Thoughts
    • Replies: @Thoughts
    @Steve Sailer

    Wow.

    Remember how you didn't see Masks => Undocumented Shopping

    I can't wait to see the post admitting you 'Didn't see...'

    , @RoatanBill
    @Steve Sailer

    Quite possibly, any attempt to make life miserable for people who choose not to get vaccinated will be the last straw. People are getting awfully tired of getting pushed around by the political trash that infests the society and has done so for decades.

    This could lead to an insurrection, not some (s)election that's just theater.

    , @J.Ross
    @Steve Sailer

    Yeah, just like how a few years back Angela Merkel started babbling about voluntarily importing thousands of unemployable criminal military aged men from the Third World, and the German Diet shouted her down, and laughed so hard that she had to resign, and then the Kaiser was all like "I'm going to read Steve's blog about how the New York Times is dumb," and then everybody clapped.
    The lockdown pretty much is the first stage of the reset, and now that small business has been gutted (by coincidence, isn't that special), a huge economic effort will be truly necessary (that is, "necessary", as opposed to "recommended by fake experts") even from a non-reset anti-globalist government.

  174. @Steve Sailer
    @Guest007

    Right, the anti-vaxxers are just playing into the hands of The Great Reset people. The sooner the pandemic is over due to vaccination, the faster The Great Reset turns into yesterday's uncool idea.

    Replies: @Thoughts, @RoatanBill, @J.Ross

    Wow.

    Remember how you didn’t see Masks => Undocumented Shopping

    I can’t wait to see the post admitting you ‘Didn’t see…’

  175. @TTSSYF
    @utu

    Maybe Dr. Schmidt and others can work out an algorithm that solves for several unknowns simultaneously to determine 1) which groups should get the COVID vaccine and when, and 2) which groups should get a shot to euthanize them and when. That way, we might be able to achieve near-perfect equity of life span, with everyone dying more or less at the same age. Adaptive management could be used to continuously improve the process.

    Replies: @Travis

    no need, the Pfizer COVID vaccine will effectively euthanize the elderly nursing home patients.

  176. @bomag
    @anon


    Suppose a significant number of black people do not want the vaccine for reasons... What then?
     
    Blame Whitey.

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

    Exactly. With their generally nightmarish health habits, more will sicken and more will die, and every single instance will be yet more evidence of how as a society we need to tighten the screws even further on legacy wypipos what wit they supremacy and they oppression and they anti-blackness.

  177. On the UK NHS website they advise…

    No pregnant women, or women who could get pregnant, or women planning to get pregnant within 3 months take the vaccine

    Isn’t that essentially every woman in a healthy civilization?

    From the NHS:

    The vaccine has not yet been assessed in pregnancy, so until we have more evidence, if you:

    are pregnant you should not be vaccinated – you can be vaccinated after your pregnancy is over
    think you may be pregnant you should delay vaccination until you are sure you are not
    are planning to get pregnant in the next 3 months, you should delay your vaccination
    know you are not pregnant you can start the two-dose course now and you should avoid getting pregnant until at least 2 months after the second dose
    have had the first dose and then become pregnant you should delay the second dose until after the pregnancy is over

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Thoughts

    No not all fertile women. Only those planning to get pregnant within the next 3 months. Work on your reading comprehension.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  178. @Guest007
    @RoatanBill

    Refusing to get vaccinated will just drag out the pandemic and make the economic and social recovery weakrer. As long as 1k or more are dying each day from Covid-19, there is no return to normal.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @RoatanBill

    The pandemic has almost nothing to do with the virus. This is a manufactured panic to elicit the desired response from people easily led around by propaganda.

    Big Pharma will make a fortune. Gov’t gets to flex its muscles by imprisoning people without due process or even a criminal complaint. The medical mafia gets to control the population and ignore their long standing dictum of do no harm by going along with forced vaccinations using a concoction obviously not properly developed or tested using decades of norms for similar activities.

    The force will be applied by employers, private businesses that will refuse to serve those not vaccinated. The politicians are dog whistling this suggestion at every opportunity. That’s just like avoiding the 1st Amendment as long as the gov’t doesn’t do it, but benefits the gov’t nonetheless.

    This is tyrannical with full intent.

    This scam is benefiting the predators in the society that wears suits and have fancy degrees. I hope there’s a wicked backlash coming for the political class that invented this scam and all the shills pushing it by a population that won’t get injected, like the 55% of NYC firemen.

    • Agree: BenKenobi
    • Replies: @guest007
    @RoatanBill

    Why can't Covid-19 truthers understand that they are hard to take seriously when they call virtuall all health care workers, public health officials, and the thousands of families who have lost a loved one liars. What is the technical basis for the claims about the vaccine, not needing social distancing or masks, or not needing to be vaccinated.

    Why are Americans so uninformed about the history of public health in the U.S. and so lacking of knowledge about previous pandemics?

    Replies: @RoatanBill, @That Would Be Telling, @anon

  179. @Steve Sailer
    @Guest007

    Right, the anti-vaxxers are just playing into the hands of The Great Reset people. The sooner the pandemic is over due to vaccination, the faster The Great Reset turns into yesterday's uncool idea.

    Replies: @Thoughts, @RoatanBill, @J.Ross

    Quite possibly, any attempt to make life miserable for people who choose not to get vaccinated will be the last straw. People are getting awfully tired of getting pushed around by the political trash that infests the society and has done so for decades.

    This could lead to an insurrection, not some (s)election that’s just theater.

  180. My Mom is 103 and doesn’t want the vaccine, she wants Eternal Rest. I will ask her if she wants to give her dose to a deserving person of color. Consider it reparations.

  181. @Steve Sailer
    @BenKenobi

    Thanks to That Would Be Telling for contributing so many well-informed comments now that vaccines are in the news lately.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

    Et tu, Steve-a-rino?

  182. @Steve Sailer
    @BenKenobi

    Thanks to That Would Be Telling for contributing so many well-informed comments now that vaccines are in the news lately.

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

    Yep, I was going to say the same. You don’t have to agree with everything someone says to recognize responsible and informative contributions when and where they occur.

    I was going to ask: Who is this new contributor, who seems so wise in the ways of science? But then I realized, s/he’d respond: That Would Be Telling.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

    Clearly she is Number One.

  183. When the US government when to a lottery for the military draft (males only!) they assigned your lottery number based upon your birth day. Period.

    This could be done for COVID-vaccinations. Assuming the date drawing is done fairly, this would be the only “equal” way to do this.

    Of course then add (perhaps) some special categories. Within those date rankings you might then prioritize EMTs, firemen, police and health care workers who work with patients (not those in collections or management). After them, then get in line.

    There is no “systemic racism” in birthdays.

    Of course those who are eligible to get an injection but fail to do so or don’t want one, would still be eligible if their birthday was in the rankings selected. They could get one at any time. Those who had lower ranks just have to wait. Fairly soon everyone would be eligible.

    Of course actual fairness isn’t part of Leftist/commie culture and never was. What good is being a power monger if you can’t favor some and disfavor others?

  184. @Jonathan Mason
    @vhrm

    Exactly. It is not that hard to figure out a fair way to distribute the vaccines, and every country in the world is having to make the same decision.

    Obviously the people who should be the highest priority for the vaccine are those who are most likely to be exposed to covid, such as healthcare workers, and to those persons who are in contact with the largest number of potential covid-19 victims, such as prison officers who move in and out of large populations.

    Then, just as the seasonal flu, you are trying to vaccinate as many people as possible out of the Medicare population, starting with nursing care and Alf residents because they are usually more elderly, more infirm, and exposed to more people.

    After that it becomes more of a lottery, but people who provide government services or who come into contact with a lot of other people during the course of their work would be the highest priority. places of employment could be assigned a certain number of vaccines and make the decision which workers are at highest risk.

    Naturally they will also be corruption, and the most wealthy people will pay more to get vaccines first, but that is the American way, and that's not going to change.

    But as I said above, every country in the world is having to make this decision, so it's not unique to America.

    Replies: @BenKenobi

    After that it becomes more of a lottery

    Oh it will become a lottery. Shirley Jackson’s The Lottery! Bwahahahahaha

  185. Anybody who wants mine can have it, just let me know.

  186. @Nico
    @Jack D


    There’s no way I would get this vaccine if it didn’t protect me from some dangerous disease like Covid which is running wild thru the community.
     
    COVID-19 is dangerous almost exclusively to people who don't know how to skip the fries and order a damn salad every now and then. Some 90% of hospitalized (not just in critical care) COVID-19 patients are obese, are diabetic or have coronary antecedents. 50% of hospitalized patients meet the criteria for metabolic syndrome (which as a diagnosis isn't much more than the sum of its parts), meaning more than one such condition, which indicates that COVID-19's dangerosity is overwhelmingly a product of a poor lifestyle, not genetics as pig-out apologists like Lindy West like to put out in front. The elderly are disproportionately represented because the windfall of poor lifestyle choices is more likely to show up the more the years pass. Their lower V02max and lower immune vigor does not help, but it does not even come close to explaining the disparities as well as does metabolic mayhem.

    I think some serious fat shaming is long overdue about now.

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @Clyde

    I think some serious fat shaming is long overdue about now.

    I agree, but since teh fatness is now known to be a disease, and nobody’s fault when it decides to strike–especially when it decides to strike women of color–there’s really nothing to be done about it. Gaah, I love these fries!

    Edit: what the hay…even though everyone’s already seen it…

    Sigh… SNL wouldn’t dare do a skit like that anymore.

    • Replies: @Nico
    @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

    Of course you're right. And while I know I'm preaching to the choir, personally, I couldn't care less if WOC are dying of COVID, considering how many of them 1/ vote D 2/ [don't] curb their children and 3/ enable the bad behavior of their Baby Daddies.

    What I do care about is that our taxes are still subventioning them, and that we are all required to throw our lives and our economic futures away to keep the hospitals from getting gummed up with some slobs who couldn't skip the fries and order a salad from time to time.

  187. @Adam Smith
    @anon

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/03/1500-stimulus-checks-for-covid-19-shots-how-one-plan-would-work.html

    Replies: @anon

    Gibs!

    Now yer talkin’!

  188. @Anonymous
    @utu


    Let more white old people die to level the playing field and restructure the society.
     
    Here is another manifestation of the same underlying agenda: The government should write off student loan debt because blacks and Browns have higher default rates.

    https://www.twitter.com/RoKhanna/status/1335960769326944261

    Replies: @Arclight

    Because maybe we shouldn’t lend to as many aspiring black and Latino college students is inconceivable.

  189. @Thoughts
    @That Would Be Telling

    In theory world, you are right.

    In powerpoint, in the classroom, on the blackboard...you are 100% correct

    But in the real world....Sh** happens

    And the reason why we can't argue with you is because We Don't Know what Sh** Will Happen

    No one thought the Pandemrix Vaccination would cause Narcoplepsy in 1300 people in Scandinavia

    It took years for them to figure out what sh** exactly happened

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @YetAnotherAnon

    But in the real world….Sh** happens

    And the reason why we can’t argue with you is because We Don’t Know what Sh** Will Happen

    One of the many reasons you can’t argue with me is because I don’t tolerate your lying about what I said. Because the message you’re replying to but do not quote starts with acknowledging this is the first real test of mRNA vaccines.

  190. @Thoughts
    @That Would Be Telling

    In theory world, you are right.

    In powerpoint, in the classroom, on the blackboard...you are 100% correct

    But in the real world....Sh** happens

    And the reason why we can't argue with you is because We Don't Know what Sh** Will Happen

    No one thought the Pandemrix Vaccination would cause Narcoplepsy in 1300 people in Scandinavia

    It took years for them to figure out what sh** exactly happened

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @YetAnotherAnon

    Hmm. This does sound awfully familiar – an exotic bug from China, a rush for a vaccine, legal indemnity for the drug company, Dr Fauci being reassuring.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3948

    Eight years after the pandemic influenza outbreak, a lawsuit alleging that GlaxoSmithKline’s Pandemrix vaccine caused narcolepsy has unearthed internal reports suggesting problems with the vaccine’s safety. Peter Doshi asks what this means for the future of transparency during public health emergencies

    In October 2009, the US National Institutes of Health infectious diseases chief, Anthony Fauci, appeared on YouTube to reassure Americans about the safety of the “swine flu” vaccine. “The track record for serious adverse events is very good. It’s very, very, very rare that you ever see anything that’s associated with the vaccine that’s a serious event,”1 he said.

    Four months earlier, the World Health Organization had declared H1N1 influenza a pandemic, and by October 2009 the new vaccines were being rolled out across the world. A similar story was playing out in the UK, with prominent organisations, including the Department of Health, British Medical Association, and Royal Colleges of General Practitioners, working hard to convince a reluctant NHS workforce to get vaccinated.2 “We fully support the swine flu vaccination programme … The vaccine has been thoroughly tested,” they declared in a joint statement.3

    Except, it hadn’t. Anticipating a severe influenza pandemic, governments around the world had made various logistical and legal arrangements to shorten the time between recognition of a pandemic virus and the production of a vaccine and administration of that vaccine in the population. In Europe, one element of those plans was an agreement to grant licences to pandemic vaccines based on data from pre-pandemic “mock-up” vaccines produced using a different virus (H5N1 influenza). Another element, adopted by countries such as Canada, the US, UK, France, and Germany, was to provide vaccine manufacturers indemnity from liability for wrongdoing, thereby reducing the risk of a lawsuit stemming from vaccine related injury.45

    https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy

    The UK Health Protection Agency (now Public Health England) undertook a major study of 4- to 18-year-olds and found that around one in every 55,000 jabs led to narcolepsy.

    Now that’s not a lot, but if the whole UK population had that jab there’d be over a thousand people with a lifelong, incurable ailment with a major quality of life impact. Society isn’t structured for people who fall asleep at the drop of a hat. Bang goes that train driver job.

    “When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my father, not screaming in terror like his passengers”

    PS – I see another China bug, bird flu, is back. All UK domestic fowl are supposed to be indoors.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Given that Pandemrix is a bog standard chicken egg membrane protein antigen except for its special formula of adjuvants and the like, perhaps manufacturing failures in the purification process from the stew of egg membrane cells dead and zombified by the flu virus, etc. etc., well, I know where I'm betting the problem is (cheap socialized medicine countries). If the problem exists at all, in a previous iSteve discussion serious doubt was thrown on the whole claim of narcolepsy, and here we have a new and much lower number, 1 in 55,000 for those 4-18, vs. the previously cited 1 in 16,000. But that cited study is worth looking into.

    That said, no vaccine Phase III "rushed" or normal trial is likely to detect such rare side effects, and except for Novavax these trials are about as big as you get per Dr. "Things I Won't Work With." Do the math, for example for Moderna 30,000 enrolled in their trial, half in the vaccine "arm," a 1 in 15,000 side effect would not likely show you a pattern, might not even show up once. That's why there's a Phase IV which tracts medications after they enter the market unless and until they're withdrawn from it.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    , @Jack D
    @YetAnotherAnon

    The narcolepsy claims had to do with $$$. There was no scientific link.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

  191. @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    @Steve Sailer

    Yep, I was going to say the same. You don't have to agree with everything someone says to recognize responsible and informative contributions when and where they occur.

    I was going to ask: Who is this new contributor, who seems so wise in the ways of science? But then I realized, s/he'd respond: That Would Be Telling.

    https://miro.medium.com/max/1600/1*FWFLectkkqVecJewKKqVIQ.jpeg

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Clearly she is Number One.

  192. @That Would Be Telling
    @Clifford Brown


    The smart approach would be to focus on over-75 year olds and maybe only immunize 50% of essential workers. That way if something goes wrong with the vaccine we do not lose all of our doctors, nurses and first responders at one fell swoop.

    There remain concerns over whether mRNA vaccines may trigger autoimmune diseases.

    Have mRNA vaccines ever been used outside of the clinical context?
     
    What relevance does your last sentence have, besides belaboring the point that this is the first time mRNA vaccines have been tried for real, which no one denies?

    Based on the biology, the theory, we expect the extreme simplicity of mRNA vaccines, their only hitting a few of your cells with just a stabilized version of the spike protein, to result in their being the safest COVID-19 vaccines of all, which is why both companies started animal testing and Phase I human trials in parallel, a gamble which paid off fantastically.

    Which of course does not fully address your question, but you need to explain why your concerns don't apply even more forcefully to getting a normal infection from the wild type virus, hitting many, many more cells. Not knowing hardly enough about the immune system, I can't rule out there being a dangerous difference, but if we take your precautionary principle too far, we should never get out of bed in the morning. As of now, we're going by the metric that bad vaccine reactions overwhelmingly show up in the first month and a half, the FDA thus requiring two months of safety data.

    mRNA vaccines were developed to fight cancer, but have been found ineffective to date....
     
    Citation Needed, and seeing as how we don't have non-mRNA vaccines against human cancers, I fail to see the relevance, you're now shifting the goalposts to efficacy.

    In the end, isn’t the issue moot as there will be subsequent vaccines required every six months until death, correct? It is possible that you might have to take this vaccine (and the updates COVID-20, COVID-21, ad infinitum) every 90 to 120 days.
     
    That of course requires a COVID-20, and COVID-21 etc. appearing, when we're averaging perhaps one a decade, and only this one being highly transmittable. If they do so on a 90-120 day cadence, that's enemy action, and a credible threat of sterilizing the source with nuclear hellfire is a lot more direct way of addressing the problem. Sort of like how "active" vaccines like the mRNA ones are frequently preferred because I gather they provide a stronger immune system response against infected cells, stop it at the source.

    Otherwise, two things make this worry less likely: coronaviruses have a unique among RNA viruses proofreading mechanism, thus they mutate at well over 1/10the the rate, and we hope what the immune system latches onto on the spike protein is "conserved." Immunity in exactly the same way infections by the wild type virus induce, always remember that's the alternative, except those also hit the I assume mostly structural and therefore perhaps less conserved nucleocapsid protein.

    Replies: @Thoughts, @YetAnotherAnon

    “seeing as how we don’t have non-mRNA vaccines against human cancers”

    We have the various HPV jabs, of which the point is not to protect against sores or genital warts but cervical and mouth cancers.

  193. @Wielgus
    @Kronos

    That Tuskegee study might suggest good sense on their part if they are reluctant to get vaccinated by "the man". Blacks being capable of good sense might be a heretical thought on this site, of course.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Colin Wright, @Jack D, @Kronos

    That Tuskegee study might suggest good sense on their part if they are reluctant to get vaccinated by “the man”. Blacks being capable of good sense might be a heretical thought on this site, of course.

    Did the Whites’ Tuskegee study cause harm to Blacks?

  194. @Steve Sailer
    @Technite78

    Right, so does anybody have a methodology for answering how much the vaccine slows spread?

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Oh Steve, you’d need a test to do that. A real one. This is some medieval stuff. Normally you can say “there’s no flubbing a dead body” but even there it’s heart disease and motorcycles. It’s the Democrat Plague, it threatens us when Democrat politicians say it does, so therefore it must be a threat no longer when Democrat politicians say it isn’t. This at least explains why the Democrats don’t need to respect the same precautions.

  195. @jcd1974
    Is everyone quoted in the article Jewish?

    (I'm starting to get the impression Jews really hate whites)

    Replies: @Thoughts

    Where you been for 2000 years?

  196. @Steve Sailer
    @Guest007

    Right, the anti-vaxxers are just playing into the hands of The Great Reset people. The sooner the pandemic is over due to vaccination, the faster The Great Reset turns into yesterday's uncool idea.

    Replies: @Thoughts, @RoatanBill, @J.Ross

    Yeah, just like how a few years back Angela Merkel started babbling about voluntarily importing thousands of unemployable criminal military aged men from the Third World, and the German Diet shouted her down, and laughed so hard that she had to resign, and then the Kaiser was all like “I’m going to read Steve’s blog about how the New York Times is dumb,” and then everybody clapped.
    The lockdown pretty much is the first stage of the reset, and now that small business has been gutted (by coincidence, isn’t that special), a huge economic effort will be truly necessary (that is, “necessary”, as opposed to “recommended by fake experts”) even from a non-reset anti-globalist government.

  197. @Mr. Anon
    @Dumbo

    Indeed. What is the point of a vaccine that does not reduce the infection rate?

    A lot of people do not seem to understand that this is not just a new vaccine. It is a new kind of vaccine - in effect a synthetic virus that is injected into you. Nobody knows the long term effects of it. What if it causes cancer? Sterility? Most vaccines take years to be developed and approved. This one took seven months.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Indeed. What is the point of a vaccine that does not reduce the infection rate?

    That would make sense, if the appropriately named wasn’t lying through his teeth. In truth, we don’t know that the 95% for whom the vaccine takes, or almost all of them, will no longer be able to transmit the disease, starting no later than about a week from the second dose. But what we know about immune responses in general, immune responses to the COVID-19 wild type virus infection, and the similarity of the apparent in your blood immune response of the latter and the vaccine, says it will stop transmission.

    I looked at the Moderna Phase III trial protocol and this is not one of its endpoints. You’re welcome to suggest an experiment that could test this. Would probably have to be a challenge trial, which iSteve says will happen in the U.K. (but I hope not with the AZ/Oxford clown show vaccine, or not before more data is collected on the accidentally discovered possibly better dosing pattern), and which a Dutch group is discussing.

    So, you know, this being an emergency and all, the FDA right now judging applications for Emergency Use Authorizations (EUAs), we go with our best judgement.

    A lot of people do not seem to understand that this is not just a new vaccine. It is a new kind of vaccine – in effect a synthetic virus that is injected into you.

    Evidently a lot of people also don’t know that the next most advanced, and long used technology is exactly a synthetic virus. And you could squint and say attenuated live virus vaccines which have been a big thing for a very long time are somewhat synthetic.

    And a lot of people don’t know molecular genetics and biology, and thus don’t know that in theory these mRNA vaccines should be the safest “active” vaccines, that class preferred for its full spectrum immune system response at the cost of, yes, likely greater side effects statistically, because instead of infecting some of your cells with a replication deficient synthetic virus, it does this with only the exact bit of genetic material needed to hijack a cell to make it produce the spike protein, have them displayed on the surface of the cells for that good immune system response, etc.

    If you want safer because it works differently and is more familiar like the flu and tetanus vaccines, perhaps wait for the Novavax protein one, which, surprise, surprise, includes an adjuvant. Which is standard for protein vaccines, but are one of the most suspect things in all of vaccination.

    Nobody knows the long term effects of it. What if it causes cancer? Sterility?

    Having just been informed of how it works, how much it simulates a normal COVID-19 infection, just without all the other parts of the virus, and only to a few cells instead of a whole bunch because SARS-CoV-2 is of course a self-replicating virus, how can you say any of the above are likely?

    That said, they do have lipids protecting their mRNA rather like an enveloped virus such as SARS-CoV-2 or the flu, but artificial in nature, with some features to make them more likely to achieve the desired results. So there, if those are toxic, we have to hope the toxicologist’s maxim “the dose makes the poison” is in play, that our bodies’ machinery to deal with lipids can deal well with them, and also note that in one form or another the mRNA vaccine companies, here Moderna and BioNTech, have been trying this out on people for quite some time, with different payloads, and likely at least slightly different lipids.

    Most vaccines take years to be developed and approved. This one took seven months.

    Lie, since years of work have been put into stabilizing proteins to avoid antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). Lie for sure for Moderna’s, they started January 10th when the first genetic sequences from the PRC were published, they in fact had their candidate in two days, thanks to that anti-ADE work which had been extended to SARS type coronavirus spike proteins for the obvious reason, MERS showed SARS was not an one off. Effective lie, because when you’re not in an emergency, researchers wait for grant approvals to do blocks of work, then have to convince a Big Pharma company their candidate is worth checking out, etc. etc.

    The only short cuts being taken are for the mRNA vaccines, starting animal tests in parallel with the Phase I testing on a few humans, 45 for Moderna, a risk for those humans which paid off fantastically, and of course going for EUAs before full licensure, seeing as, you know, this is an emergency killing that last time I checked was killing more than a thousand people a day. But EUAs for vaccines are not new things, see their page on them. Which I see now completely emphasizes COVID-19, go to the bottom for earlier ones.

    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @That Would Be Telling


    Having just been informed of how it works, how much it simulates a normal COVID-19 infection, just without all the other parts of the virus, and only to a few cells instead of a whole bunch because SARS-CoV-2 is of course a self-replicating virus, how can you say any of the above are likely?
     
    Likely? I don't know. Possible. Yes. A completely new vaccine technology is bound to have risks. And the makers are indemnified against liability, your squid-ink on the matter not withstanding. All this for a virus which is really no worse than any other pandemic that comes along every 50 years or so.

    Experts assured people of the safety of Thalidomide, Vioxx, Oxycontin, the food pyramid, etc. We don't have to listen to them. Or to you.

    You want to take it - go right ahead. Leave the rest of us who are unwilling out of it.
  198. @Anonymous
    @Anon



    The trials have not yet demonstrated that a vaccinated person would not infect others.
     
    Steve makes such a big deal about this, but is it really so important? Doesn’t it only mean that someone who already has Covid, but is not symptomatic, might get the shot?
     
    Vaccinations most important effect is not to protect the person who is vaccinated. As far as I know, no vaccine confers absolute immunity to all who take it. The purpose of mass vaccination is to reduce the rate of transmission. If each newly infected person will infect two others, then the disease will obviously spread quickly. If fewer than one person (on average) is infected, then the disease will eventually die out.

    Here's how it works in a bit more detail:

    Suppose that the natural infection rate is two, but that 2/3 of the population has been vaccinated. then 2 out of every 3 infections is stopped, and each newly infected person only infects 2*(1-1/3) = 2/3 (fewer than one) other people. The epidemic ends.
    If the vaccination only confers 80% immunity, than not as many infections are prevented, and the newly infected person infects 2*(1 - .8*2/3)=0.933 people, still fewer than one. The epidemic still ends, just a bit later. And the immunized person who thought himself immune would have a 20%, 1 in 5, chance of becoming infected if exposed to the disease. That's a substantial risk. The largest benefit is the end of the epidemic, not individual immunity. Ending the epidemic reduces chance of getting the disease to 0, which is less than 1 in 5.


    So a "COVID-19 vaccine" that doesn't prevent new infections is as unlikely to render COVID-19 extinct as aspirins are to end headaches, or AID medications are to end AIDS. The common understanding of the word "vaccine" as stopping epidemics by conferring immunity is disregarded, and a new meaning for the word is defined -- without explicitly telling anybody of the redefinition.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    So a “COVID-19 vaccine” that doesn’t prevent new infections is as unlikely to render COVID-19 extinct as aspirins are to end headaches, or AID medications are to end AIDS. The common understanding of the word “vaccine” as stopping epidemics by conferring immunity is disregarded, and a new meaning for the word is defined — without explicitly telling anybody of the redefinition.

    And thus we have to hope our judgement is correct that for those for whom these vaccines take, ~95% perhaps minus a few percent because their immune systems are extra special, will not be able to get asymptotic COVID-19 and transmit it to others. This theory backed up by comparing the serological (blood) immune responses of those who got COVID-19 and those who got the vaccine. Only difference I know of, granted I haven’t researched this, is that the former also has a reaction to the nucleocapid protein instead of just the spike protein.

    Your claim this is being “redefined” fails hard, and is surprising after the head of Pfizer took so much s*** for truthfully answering this question about his/BioNTech’s vaccine.

  199. @Wielgus
    @Kronos

    That Tuskegee study might suggest good sense on their part if they are reluctant to get vaccinated by "the man". Blacks being capable of good sense might be a heretical thought on this site, of course.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Colin Wright, @Jack D, @Kronos

    ‘That Tuskegee study might suggest good sense on their part if they are reluctant to get vaccinated by “the man”. Blacks being capable of good sense might be a heretical thought on this site, of course.’

    I can’t say I mind the thought of blacks proving reluctant to take the vaccine. Not because of any concern for any effect on blacks (I doubt if there would be much either way), but just because I’d love to see the ideological short-circuits at the New York Times et al.

    ‘Don’t they realize we’re doing it because we love them?’ It’d be kind of like those Jews getting chased off at a ‘Black Lives Matter’ rally ‘n lootin.’

    H0wever will they get the blacks to trust them and take the vaccine? And if the blacks won’t take it, what are they going to do? Let whites have it when blacks don’t?

    Well, I’m sure they’ll work it out. But it could be fun to watch — and after all, it’s all of little practical significance. This nonsense goes on until enough get fed up, and then it stops.

  200. @SINCERITY.net
    As everyone knows, white racists must die (as Opera said).
    If this goal can be reached quickly, then let us vaccinate 70% of the US population first, before offering Vaccines to white supremacists.

    Older populations are whiter, ” Dr. Schmidt said. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.”
     
    I am sure we find a way to protect aging „minorities“
    . Elderly Blacks are first to get vaccinated, then 70% of the „essential workers“, and then elderly whites, if they have not died yet. Cuomo in New York can help towards that goal.

    It has long been institutionalized that „minorities“ have special privilege, like black privilege. As long as whites accept their second class treatment, (#TooWhite) they will continue to be more and more marginalized and disadvantaged.

    Just a stupid question: vaccines have been created by white scientists and white money? Or was it stolen from wise Latinas and Africans?

    Replies: @Uncle Dan

    Every stupid question deserves a stupid answer: from each according to his abilities to each according to his victimhood. Dig down deep, sucker. And if you’re white and over 75, you’ve already had it too good, so quit your whimpering and die quietly, or else…

  201. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Thoughts

    Hmm. This does sound awfully familiar - an exotic bug from China, a rush for a vaccine, legal indemnity for the drug company, Dr Fauci being reassuring.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3948


    Eight years after the pandemic influenza outbreak, a lawsuit alleging that GlaxoSmithKline’s Pandemrix vaccine caused narcolepsy has unearthed internal reports suggesting problems with the vaccine’s safety. Peter Doshi asks what this means for the future of transparency during public health emergencies

    In October 2009, the US National Institutes of Health infectious diseases chief, Anthony Fauci, appeared on YouTube to reassure Americans about the safety of the “swine flu” vaccine. “The track record for serious adverse events is very good. It’s very, very, very rare that you ever see anything that’s associated with the vaccine that’s a serious event,”1 he said.

    Four months earlier, the World Health Organization had declared H1N1 influenza a pandemic, and by October 2009 the new vaccines were being rolled out across the world. A similar story was playing out in the UK, with prominent organisations, including the Department of Health, British Medical Association, and Royal Colleges of General Practitioners, working hard to convince a reluctant NHS workforce to get vaccinated.2 “We fully support the swine flu vaccination programme … The vaccine has been thoroughly tested,” they declared in a joint statement.3

    Except, it hadn’t. Anticipating a severe influenza pandemic, governments around the world had made various logistical and legal arrangements to shorten the time between recognition of a pandemic virus and the production of a vaccine and administration of that vaccine in the population. In Europe, one element of those plans was an agreement to grant licences to pandemic vaccines based on data from pre-pandemic “mock-up” vaccines produced using a different virus (H5N1 influenza). Another element, adopted by countries such as Canada, the US, UK, France, and Germany, was to provide vaccine manufacturers indemnity from liability for wrongdoing, thereby reducing the risk of a lawsuit stemming from vaccine related injury.45
     

    https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy

    The UK Health Protection Agency (now Public Health England) undertook a major study of 4- to 18-year-olds and found that around one in every 55,000 jabs led to narcolepsy.

    Now that's not a lot, but if the whole UK population had that jab there'd be over a thousand people with a lifelong, incurable ailment with a major quality of life impact. Society isn't structured for people who fall asleep at the drop of a hat. Bang goes that train driver job.

    "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my father, not screaming in terror like his passengers"

    PS - I see another China bug, bird flu, is back. All UK domestic fowl are supposed to be indoors.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Jack D

    Given that Pandemrix is a bog standard chicken egg membrane protein antigen except for its special formula of adjuvants and the like, perhaps manufacturing failures in the purification process from the stew of egg membrane cells dead and zombified by the flu virus, etc. etc., well, I know where I’m betting the problem is (cheap socialized medicine countries). If the problem exists at all, in a previous iSteve discussion serious doubt was thrown on the whole claim of narcolepsy, and here we have a new and much lower number, 1 in 55,000 for those 4-18, vs. the previously cited 1 in 16,000. But that cited study is worth looking into.

    That said, no vaccine Phase III “rushed” or normal trial is likely to detect such rare side effects, and except for Novavax these trials are about as big as you get per Dr. “Things I Won’t Work With.” Do the math, for example for Moderna 30,000 enrolled in their trial, half in the vaccine “arm,” a 1 in 15,000 side effect would not likely show you a pattern, might not even show up once. That’s why there’s a Phase IV which tracts medications after they enter the market unless and until they’re withdrawn from it.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @That Would Be Telling

    "cheap socialized medicine countries"

    Or you can have expensive private medicine, but the odds are your generic drug will still come from India (cheap!), and their precursor chemicals will still come from China (really cheap!).

    https://fortune.com/2013/05/15/dirty-medicine/

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ranbaxy-whistleblower-reveals-how-he-exposed-massive-pharmaceutical-fraud/


    Among the drugs prescribed to Americans, 80 percent are generic drugs, and 40 percent of drugs are now made overseas in countries such as China and India where U.S. oversight is weaker.

    Generic drug companies, such as Ranbaxy, have to prove their drugs are "bioequivalent," which means they have the same effect as the brand name. Thakur found Ranbaxy's drugs were being made for Americans with bioequivalence data that didn't exist or was made up all together.

    "The key question here is that, does the drug work as intended?" Thakur said. "And do you have the confidence that the drug works as it is intended to do?"

    Miller said, "But the confidence would largely have to be based on the quality of the data."

    Thakur replied, "Oh absolutely."

    And without that data, Thakur said, "You don't know."

    Thakur reported his findings to the Food and Drug Administration in 2005. Their investigation found Ranbaxy had a "persistent" "pattern" of submitting "untrue statements." On at least 15 new generic drug applications, auditors found more than 1,600 data errors. This meant their drugs were "potentially unsafe and illegal to sell."

    Vince Fabiano, a former vice president of Ranbaxy, said, "In essence, they used the fraud as a competitive advantage to build and grow the business here in the U.S."
     

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  202. @kpkinsunnyphiladelphia
    Shouldn't give it to the nursing home and rehab patients at the start--you should give it first to the people who WORK there, because they are mostly minority, and they mostly take the bus and subway or live in lower class crowded communities.

    How many cases can be attributed to Kaneesha getting the Wuhan from a virus laden bedpan of feces from infected 90 year old Uncle Johnny, and then going home and then spreading the sucker at a house party?

    It's an epidemiological study just screaming to be done, especially with NYC data, which means it won't happen, most likely.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Technite78, @Bernardista

    This is so on point and so brazenly true that it will never come to pass here in a nation with its head on backwards.

    I would add to the list the population of home health care aides who spend hours a day with their clients and are making minimum wage salaries, taking public transportation, and going home to crowded living spaces.

  203. @anon
    Suppose a significant number of black people do not want the vaccine for reasons.

    What then?

    Replies: @william munny, @Adam Smith, @bomag, @Uncle Dan

    That’s easy. Simply deny the vaccine to the same proportion of white people. Preferably old white people who had it too good. There are numerous Experts on Ethics who could explain this to you in greater detail.

  204. @Cool Daddy Jimbo
    I have ideas. Many of them. First, vaccinate anyone over 80. Then over 70. Then anyone who works in health care, down to the janitor at the medical center. He's not seeing patients, but he's breathing the same air, touching the same doorknobs, etc. Then a lottery, per family, with numbers pulled from tax returns. Then whoever's left.

    Two things I haven't seen discussed anywhere. First, we shouldn't vaccinate people who have had it, right? They have antibodies. Should there be an antibody test before vaccination? We currently have 14 million confirmed cases. I'll bet we have 50 million total cases. I'll bet most of those people will happily pull themselves out of line. l sure would.

    Second, I've read about some significant side effects of the vaccine. 101.5 fever for four days, things like that. How many 80+ year-olds can tolerate that? My in-laws would have a hard time with it. They are not in good health.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Two things I haven’t seen discussed anywhere. First, we shouldn’t vaccinate people who have had it, right? They have antibodies. Should there be an antibody test before vaccination? We currently have 14 million confirmed cases. I’ll bet we have 50 million total cases. I’ll bet most of those people will happily pull themselves out of line. l sure would.

    And the CDC estimates 100 million cases, which for once I think might be a good result from them on unfashionable infectious disease control.

    As previously discussed here at iStever, the issue is the time and expense it would take to do tens of millions of antibody tests before vaccine production gets into high gear, plus their claimed by some inherent accuracy ceiling of 96%. Simpler and cheaper to just vaccinate everybody….

    Second, I’ve read about some significant side effects of the vaccine. 101.5 fever for four days, things like that.

    You’ll want to check out the side effect profiles by age, Moderna at least made sure to enroll plenty of the elderly. As I recall, but not sure the source was reliable or specific to these mRNA vaccines, the elderly tend to have fewer side effects since, after all, those are based on the immune system’s response, and their’s aren’t as effective as they used to be.

    See for example the newer flu vaccines for them, which have 4 times the antigens as the normal ones, my father certainly noticed the difference when he started taking those flu vaccines. You might also want to go with the odds, just how many of all ages got what “side effects.” Scare quotes because you’re deliberately poking the immune system with a stick, standard ones like fever are more “a greater reaction than you’d like” effects.

  205. @Anon7
    My local news pointed out that not only would many blacks refuse the vaccine because of Tuskegee, but also many Jews would refuse because of Auschwitz and Dr. Mengele's experiments.

    As I'm sure everyone knows, Pfizer was founded by a German-American named Karl Pfizer and his German cousin in the nineteenth century. Although the local news didn't mention that Pfizer was founded by Germans.

    Any group of people who think that the current year is AM 5781 would count the founding of Pfizer in 1849 CE as being practically yesterday.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    My local news pointed out that not only would many blacks refuse the vaccine because of Tuskegee, but also many Jews would refuse because of Auschwitz and Dr. Mengele’s experiments.

    As I’m sure everyone knows, Pfizer was founded by a German-American named Karl Pfizer and his German cousin in the nineteenth century. Although the local news didn’t mention that Pfizer was founded by Germans.

    Then you’d best not tell them the vaccine actually comes from the German company BioNTech … except the head of it is a Turk, and was co-founded with his self-described “Prussian Turk” wife. Which the usual suspects are of course making a big deal of.

  206. @Thoughts
    On the UK NHS website they advise...

    No pregnant women, or women who could get pregnant, or women planning to get pregnant within 3 months take the vaccine

    Isn't that essentially every woman in a healthy civilization?




    From the NHS:

    The vaccine has not yet been assessed in pregnancy, so until we have more evidence, if you:

    are pregnant you should not be vaccinated – you can be vaccinated after your pregnancy is over
    think you may be pregnant you should delay vaccination until you are sure you are not
    are planning to get pregnant in the next 3 months, you should delay your vaccination
    know you are not pregnant you can start the two-dose course now and you should avoid getting pregnant until at least 2 months after the second dose
    have had the first dose and then become pregnant you should delay the second dose until after the pregnancy is over

    Replies: @Jack D

    No not all fertile women. Only those planning to get pregnant within the next 3 months. Work on your reading comprehension.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D


    No not all fertile women. Only those planning to get pregnant within the next 3 months.
     
    Not all pregnanies are planned. Many are not.
  207. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Thoughts

    Hmm. This does sound awfully familiar - an exotic bug from China, a rush for a vaccine, legal indemnity for the drug company, Dr Fauci being reassuring.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3948


    Eight years after the pandemic influenza outbreak, a lawsuit alleging that GlaxoSmithKline’s Pandemrix vaccine caused narcolepsy has unearthed internal reports suggesting problems with the vaccine’s safety. Peter Doshi asks what this means for the future of transparency during public health emergencies

    In October 2009, the US National Institutes of Health infectious diseases chief, Anthony Fauci, appeared on YouTube to reassure Americans about the safety of the “swine flu” vaccine. “The track record for serious adverse events is very good. It’s very, very, very rare that you ever see anything that’s associated with the vaccine that’s a serious event,”1 he said.

    Four months earlier, the World Health Organization had declared H1N1 influenza a pandemic, and by October 2009 the new vaccines were being rolled out across the world. A similar story was playing out in the UK, with prominent organisations, including the Department of Health, British Medical Association, and Royal Colleges of General Practitioners, working hard to convince a reluctant NHS workforce to get vaccinated.2 “We fully support the swine flu vaccination programme … The vaccine has been thoroughly tested,” they declared in a joint statement.3

    Except, it hadn’t. Anticipating a severe influenza pandemic, governments around the world had made various logistical and legal arrangements to shorten the time between recognition of a pandemic virus and the production of a vaccine and administration of that vaccine in the population. In Europe, one element of those plans was an agreement to grant licences to pandemic vaccines based on data from pre-pandemic “mock-up” vaccines produced using a different virus (H5N1 influenza). Another element, adopted by countries such as Canada, the US, UK, France, and Germany, was to provide vaccine manufacturers indemnity from liability for wrongdoing, thereby reducing the risk of a lawsuit stemming from vaccine related injury.45
     

    https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy

    The UK Health Protection Agency (now Public Health England) undertook a major study of 4- to 18-year-olds and found that around one in every 55,000 jabs led to narcolepsy.

    Now that's not a lot, but if the whole UK population had that jab there'd be over a thousand people with a lifelong, incurable ailment with a major quality of life impact. Society isn't structured for people who fall asleep at the drop of a hat. Bang goes that train driver job.

    "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my father, not screaming in terror like his passengers"

    PS - I see another China bug, bird flu, is back. All UK domestic fowl are supposed to be indoors.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Jack D

    The narcolepsy claims had to do with $$$. There was no scientific link.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Jack D

    "There was no scientific link"

    That's not what the NHS, CDC and UK government think. But I see the Pandemrix vaccine was EU-only ("In response to the events in Europe, CDC reviewed data from the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) and the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) and found no indication of any association between U.S.-licensed H1N1 or seasonal influenza vaccine and narcolepsy.").

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/19/swine-flu-vaccine-narcolepsy-uk

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/07/why-pandemic-flu-shot-caused-narcolepsy


    In a paper in Science Translational Medicine (STM) this week, researchers offer a possible explanation. They show that the vaccine, called Pandemrix, triggers antibodies that can also bind to a receptor in brain cells that help regulate sleepiness. The work strongly suggests that Pandemrix, which was given to more than 30 million Europeans, triggered an autoimmune re action that led to narcolepsy in some people who are genetically at risk.

     

    Replies: @Jack D

  208. @Elmer T. Jones
    @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

    My dad spent the last year of his life in a good nursing home because he managed his finances well and could afford it. Fat sassy black women helped him go to the potty and other personal tasks. He said "when one passes through the doors of a managed care facility one loses all human dignity".

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder

    Did he say whether or not he thought that year was worth it?

  209. @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    Diaperfaces are first to get the fake vax. It only makes sense: the most avid participants in this hoax get to extend and enrich their newly-discovered fake Meaning of Existence with a fake cure. Fake problem, fake reaction, fake solution: sniffles, facediapers, fakevax.

    The funny thing is diaperfaces will still with much smug and sanctimony don the facediaper of submission for the rest of their lives and demand everyone else participate in their sexual fetish.

    Replies: @John Up North

    Chicago has to be the world capital of diaperfaces. It’s unsettling to have a white guy jog by me and deliberately make eye contact with me before he virtue signals me and pulls up his face diaper on to his dopey mug. I really want to flip the bird but I’m kinda old and unfit.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @John Up North

    Chicago has to be the world capital of diaperfaces. It’s unsettling to have a white guy jog by me and deliberately make eye contact with me before he virtue signals me and pulls up his face diaper on to his dopey mug.
    The people who jog past me are usually black and wearing a mask that must be glued on. Blacks' are fearful and superstitious the way Steve says. Plus in my fairly liberal county the media has done a great job of brainwashing fear into people. The average person or couple out for a walk/stroll have their face masks firmly in place. I go for a (fast) walk I never mask up. If I pass by someone they do all kinds of humorous maneuvers to get 10ft away.

    On the other hand I would not go to an indoor basketball game even with two masks on. On the internet. I see photos of people with two masks on, layering up. If I had to fly somewhere I would do a double mask and they would be effective masks. N95 etc.

    I was at the dentist on Saturday. I was pleasantly surprised how little Covid fear there was. He took care of me efficiently. Staff was cheerful.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

  210. @JohnPlywood
    @Guy De Champlagne

    In what alternate reality does it make sense to keep the oldest, most economically liable populations alive?


    For a movement constantly complaining about debt, right-wingers sure are hesitant to attack the root cause of that debt.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    A huge part of the justification for placing restrictions on young healthy people who aren’t at risk from the disease is that they’ll infect older more vulnerable people.

  211. @That Would Be Telling
    @Easyrhino


    I have zero intention of getting version 1.0 of a vaccine for a virus so lethal, so deadly that you need to have a test to know if you even have it.

    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that’s been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?
     
    Interesting when every single thing you say is a lie, or effectively so.

    You need the test to know if your illness is COVID-19 for differential diagnosis and thus treatment. "Big Pharma" has since 1988 been protected from our normal insane civil legal system for childhood vaccines, and without that liability protection for COVID-19 vaccines, this discussion would be moot, who would dare sell them in the US at the likely cost of being sued out of business? Or they'd be charging, say, 10 to 100 times more for them.

    Rushed to market, that remains to be seen, because a FDA Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is not proper licensure for the general population. Although that's perhaps a difference without much a distinction since the EUA approvals we're expecting this week and the next will result in tens of millions starting their vaccinations by the end of the year.

    "skipping usual test trial protocols" needs a huge Citation Needed, since the only known example of that for Western vaccines, ignoring the AZ/Oxford clown show, is the mRNA companies starting animal testing and their human Phase I trials in parallel. Definitely was risky for the relatively small number of humans involved, only 45 for Moderna, but it paid off fantastically.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Polynikes

    Your first paragraph is so far off the mark, there’s no point in even humoring the rest of your nonsense.

  212. @AnotherDad
    @Easyrhino


    Furthermore Big Pharma is exempt from product liability lawsuits so why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily take a vaccine that’s been rushed to market, skipping usual test trial protocols?
     
    Getting Big Pharma out from under the complete joke of that's our legal system, so they could continue to produce critical vaccines without these phony, whiny "my son was a wonderful perfect child, but turned into a autistic loon (sometime) after being vaccinated"--perhaps the sanest piece of legislation Congress has passed in the post-War era.


    Many moderns seem to have no concept of what infectious disease used to do in the pre-vaccine era. I only saw the very tail end of it myself. Had a classmate whose parents didn't get him the polio vaccine in a timely manner. A good friend's dad--a vigorous young man who flew the B-17 with the 8th during the War--who barely hobbled around on crutches, had to have a handbrake thingy in his car to drive. But despite only very limited experience, i have the mental capability to understand from history and literature something of what life was like when infectious disease ruled the roost.

    Vaccines are simply the most important public health measure, with the exception of clean water and sewers/sewage treatment. If i had to choose between vaccines and all the other stuff modern medicine does--easy choice, vaccines.


    You don't want to take this one ... don't.

    But it's weird when some of the same people who rightly complain about the risk-averse hysteria over this virus--a decent geezer killer, but not very deadly to others--and the totalitarian response, then turn around and get all hyper risk-averse about vaccine side effects which are at least another order of magnitude more trivial than this virus.

    Replies: @Polynikes

    Except the vaccine compensation fund wasn’t implemented because of the polio vaccine. Or the measles vaccine. Which as you say, people voluntarily rushed to get.

    It was implemented after a false swine flu scare in the 70s where the govt helped rush a crappy vaccine to market in under a year. Sound familiar?

    Good vaccines and sound science don’t need liability protection. People would get the polio vaccine even if it had a 1% complication rate. The disease was that bad.

    This vaccine isn’t needed by most. And any forcing it by govts is just scaremongering politicians trying to unwind the harm they’ve done without taking responsibility.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Polynikes


    [The US childhood "vaccine court"] was implemented after a false swine flu scare in the 70s where the govt helped rush a crappy vaccine to market in under a year.
     
    True in the sense that legislation passed in 1986 is "after" 1976, but a big Citation Needed on your implicitly claimed cause and effect. Wikipedia for what it's worth claims it was due to the controversy about the old fashioned, and almost certainly superior whole cell pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine. That eventually resulted in an acellular replacement vaccine that only protects against one of this bacteria's toxins, which another Unz.com commentator says is a bad idea, there's a second toxin which needs to be added.

    Wikipedia cites a New York Times article that makes easily falsifiable claims that by the end of 1984, there was only one company making this whole cell vaccine for the US, and doctors were having to ration the use of the available doses.

    Your claim also doesn't make sense because this new system only covers childhood vaccines, it wouldn't have covered the bulk, or perhaps almost all claims against the all ages 1976 flu vaccine.
  213. @Wielgus
    @Kronos

    That Tuskegee study might suggest good sense on their part if they are reluctant to get vaccinated by "the man". Blacks being capable of good sense might be a heretical thought on this site, of course.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Colin Wright, @Jack D, @Kronos

    Alternatively, as Steve says in his next comment, blacks are a group with below average IQ and above average self esteem, so if you find yourself in agreement with blacks you might want to reconsider whether you are right. When in US history have blacks been right about anything?

    • Replies: @Kronos
    @Jack D


    When in US history have blacks been right about anything?
     
    The innocence of OJ Simpson? 🤔

    https://thejosevilson.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/OJ-Simpsonshrug.jpg
  214. @Stan Adams
    OT:

    Today is December 7 - Pearl Harbor Day. On a quiet Sunday morning 79 years ago, Japanese warplanes rained death and destruction on the American Pacific fleet.

    We won the war and lost the peace.

    Replies: @Kronos

    We got a lot of cool cheap stuff though.

    I mean, a toilet that cleans itself!

  215. @Wielgus
    @Kronos

    That Tuskegee study might suggest good sense on their part if they are reluctant to get vaccinated by "the man". Blacks being capable of good sense might be a heretical thought on this site, of course.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Colin Wright, @Jack D, @Kronos

    A common problem white liberals have with blacks is they act stupid when whites want them to be smart, but blacks will act smart when whites want them to be stupid.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Plan_(Washington,_D.C.)

  216. @That Would Be Telling
    @Mr. Anon


    Indeed. What is the point of a vaccine that does not reduce the infection rate?
     
    That would make sense, if the appropriately named @Dumbo wasn't lying through his teeth. In truth, we don't know that the 95% for whom the vaccine takes, or almost all of them, will no longer be able to transmit the disease, starting no later than about a week from the second dose. But what we know about immune responses in general, immune responses to the COVID-19 wild type virus infection, and the similarity of the apparent in your blood immune response of the latter and the vaccine, says it will stop transmission.

    I looked at the Moderna Phase III trial protocol and this is not one of its endpoints. You're welcome to suggest an experiment that could test this. Would probably have to be a challenge trial, which iSteve says will happen in the U.K. (but I hope not with the AZ/Oxford clown show vaccine, or not before more data is collected on the accidentally discovered possibly better dosing pattern), and which a Dutch group is discussing.

    So, you know, this being an emergency and all, the FDA right now judging applications for Emergency Use Authorizations (EUAs), we go with our best judgement.

    A lot of people do not seem to understand that this is not just a new vaccine. It is a new kind of vaccine – in effect a synthetic virus that is injected into you.
     
    Evidently a lot of people also don't know that the next most advanced, and long used technology is exactly a synthetic virus. And you could squint and say attenuated live virus vaccines which have been a big thing for a very long time are somewhat synthetic.

    And a lot of people don't know molecular genetics and biology, and thus don't know that in theory these mRNA vaccines should be the safest "active" vaccines, that class preferred for its full spectrum immune system response at the cost of, yes, likely greater side effects statistically, because instead of infecting some of your cells with a replication deficient synthetic virus, it does this with only the exact bit of genetic material needed to hijack a cell to make it produce the spike protein, have them displayed on the surface of the cells for that good immune system response, etc.

    If you want safer because it works differently and is more familiar like the flu and tetanus vaccines, perhaps wait for the Novavax protein one, which, surprise, surprise, includes an adjuvant. Which is standard for protein vaccines, but are one of the most suspect things in all of vaccination.

    Nobody knows the long term effects of it. What if it causes cancer? Sterility?
     
    Having just been informed of how it works, how much it simulates a normal COVID-19 infection, just without all the other parts of the virus, and only to a few cells instead of a whole bunch because SARS-CoV-2 is of course a self-replicating virus, how can you say any of the above are likely?

    That said, they do have lipids protecting their mRNA rather like an enveloped virus such as SARS-CoV-2 or the flu, but artificial in nature, with some features to make them more likely to achieve the desired results. So there, if those are toxic, we have to hope the toxicologist's maxim "the dose makes the poison" is in play, that our bodies' machinery to deal with lipids can deal well with them, and also note that in one form or another the mRNA vaccine companies, here Moderna and BioNTech, have been trying this out on people for quite some time, with different payloads, and likely at least slightly different lipids.

    Most vaccines take years to be developed and approved. This one took seven months.
     
    Lie, since years of work have been put into stabilizing proteins to avoid antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). Lie for sure for Moderna's, they started January 10th when the first genetic sequences from the PRC were published, they in fact had their candidate in two days, thanks to that anti-ADE work which had been extended to SARS type coronavirus spike proteins for the obvious reason, MERS showed SARS was not an one off. Effective lie, because when you're not in an emergency, researchers wait for grant approvals to do blocks of work, then have to convince a Big Pharma company their candidate is worth checking out, etc. etc.

    The only short cuts being taken are for the mRNA vaccines, starting animal tests in parallel with the Phase I testing on a few humans, 45 for Moderna, a risk for those humans which paid off fantastically, and of course going for EUAs before full licensure, seeing as, you know, this is an emergency killing that last time I checked was killing more than a thousand people a day. But EUAs for vaccines are not new things, see their page on them. Which I see now completely emphasizes COVID-19, go to the bottom for earlier ones.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Having just been informed of how it works, how much it simulates a normal COVID-19 infection, just without all the other parts of the virus, and only to a few cells instead of a whole bunch because SARS-CoV-2 is of course a self-replicating virus, how can you say any of the above are likely?

    Likely? I don’t know. Possible. Yes. A completely new vaccine technology is bound to have risks. And the makers are indemnified against liability, your squid-ink on the matter not withstanding. All this for a virus which is really no worse than any other pandemic that comes along every 50 years or so.

    Experts assured people of the safety of Thalidomide, Vioxx, Oxycontin, the food pyramid, etc. We don’t have to listen to them. Or to you.

    You want to take it – go right ahead. Leave the rest of us who are unwilling out of it.

  217. @Jack D
    @Thoughts

    No not all fertile women. Only those planning to get pregnant within the next 3 months. Work on your reading comprehension.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    No not all fertile women. Only those planning to get pregnant within the next 3 months.

    Not all pregnanies are planned. Many are not.

  218. @James Speaks
    @Kronos


    not seen since the Tuskegee Syphilis Study.
     
    Sshhh!

    Replies: @Fhjjugccx, @Anonymous

    Tuskegee was a great mistake, and a crying shame. They never should have been allowed to fly those airplanes —THEY DIDN’T BUILD THAT!

  219. @James Speaks
    @Kronos


    not seen since the Tuskegee Syphilis Study.
     
    Sshhh!

    Replies: @Fhjjugccx, @Anonymous

    not seen since the Tuskegee Syphilis Study.

    Sshhh!

    Read up on it, James. It wasn’t what you think it was.

  220. @John Up North
    @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    Chicago has to be the world capital of diaperfaces. It's unsettling to have a white guy jog by me and deliberately make eye contact with me before he virtue signals me and pulls up his face diaper on to his dopey mug. I really want to flip the bird but I'm kinda old and unfit.

    Replies: @Clyde

    Chicago has to be the world capital of diaperfaces. It’s unsettling to have a white guy jog by me and deliberately make eye contact with me before he virtue signals me and pulls up his face diaper on to his dopey mug.
    The people who jog past me are usually black and wearing a mask that must be glued on. Blacks’ are fearful and superstitious the way Steve says. Plus in my fairly liberal county the media has done a great job of brainwashing fear into people. The average person or couple out for a walk/stroll have their face masks firmly in place. I go for a (fast) walk I never mask up. If I pass by someone they do all kinds of humorous maneuvers to get 10ft away.

    On the other hand I would not go to an indoor basketball game even with two masks on. On the internet. I see photos of people with two masks on, layering up. If I had to fly somewhere I would do a double mask and they would be effective masks. N95 etc.

    I was at the dentist on Saturday. I was pleasantly surprised how little Covid fear there was. He took care of me efficiently. Staff was cheerful.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @Clyde


    I was at the dentist on Saturday. I was pleasantly surprised how little Covid fear there was. He took care of me efficiently. Staff was cheerful.
     
    Dentists are massively at risk for Covid-19, because if ever they was a profession that involved getting in your face, then dentistry is it. Also high speed drilling creates aerosols at very close range.

    If your dentist was not taking Covid-19 precautions, then he is a nutcase.

    I was at the dentist last week and had surgery on my gums, and the dentist and his assistant were extremely cheerful, so much so that we all took selfies together after the work was done, but they will still masked, gowned, and gloved down, and hand sanitizer was much in evidence.

    There is a lot of debate as to how useful masks are for the general public, but a thought it came to me today on my which is that it is much harder to put your hands to your mouth or scratch your nose when wearing a mask, so the mask acts as a reminder to sanitize your hands before touching your face, which might well reduce the risk of transmission of a virus from door handles or bus seats or any contaminated surface.

    In populations where 100% of adults are wearing face masks, it is almost impossible not to be aware of infection control risk at all times, and to also pay attention to hand washing and social distancing.

    Replies: @Clyde

  221. @Kronos

    From the New York Times news section, an article in which it gradually becomes apparent that the only value conceivable in 2020 is: Would this policy benefit blacks more than whites? If so, good.
     
    This has to be reverse psychology. This is how you get blacks to willingly take a experimental injection on a scale not seen since the Tuskegee Syphilis Study. You trick a majority of blacks that whites want the life saving vaccine first but they’ll “grudgingly” give it up as a gimmedat reparation. To have them save others, they gotta think they’re just saving themselves.

    https://youtu.be/-pRuncHws2g

    Replies: @James Speaks, @Wielgus, @Simon Tugmutton

    That shark has serious dental problems. I doubt if he flosses.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    @Simon Tugmutton

    Well he eats upper class human junk food. You know how much plastic is in a 65+ year old heiress?

    Did the video analogy make sense? Those selfish people thought they’d get away by taking the life preservers and lifeboats first right? Only to be killed first by the mega sharks leaving others on the still somewhat safe sinking boat more time to devise an escape.

    Replies: @Simon Tugmutton

  222. @Simon Tugmutton
    @Kronos

    That shark has serious dental problems. I doubt if he flosses.

    Replies: @Kronos

    Well he eats upper class human junk food. You know how much plastic is in a 65+ year old heiress?

    Did the video analogy make sense? Those selfish people thought they’d get away by taking the life preservers and lifeboats first right? Only to be killed first by the mega sharks leaving others on the still somewhat safe sinking boat more time to devise an escape.

    • Replies: @Simon Tugmutton
    @Kronos

    Yes, the metaphor was not lost on me. Too bad they used such grainy stock for the shark. Too cheap to make a rubber one, I guess.

  223. @Jack D
    @YetAnotherAnon

    The narcolepsy claims had to do with $$$. There was no scientific link.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    “There was no scientific link”

    That’s not what the NHS, CDC and UK government think. But I see the Pandemrix vaccine was EU-only (“In response to the events in Europe, CDC reviewed data from the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) and the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) and found no indication of any association between U.S.-licensed H1N1 or seasonal influenza vaccine and narcolepsy.“).

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/19/swine-flu-vaccine-narcolepsy-uk

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/07/why-pandemic-flu-shot-caused-narcolepsy

    In a paper in Science Translational Medicine (STM) this week, researchers offer a possible explanation. They show that the vaccine, called Pandemrix, triggers antibodies that can also bind to a receptor in brain cells that help regulate sleepiness. The work strongly suggests that Pandemrix, which was given to more than 30 million Europeans, triggered an autoimmune re action that led to narcolepsy in some people who are genetically at risk.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @YetAnotherAnon

    For all the knocks that the FDA gets (including the knocks about not approving the Covid vaccine as quickly as some countries) you'll notice that most of these issues (Pandremix, thalidomide, etc.) occur in other countries and not in the US. FDA approval is still the gold standard for stamps of approval.

  224. @RoatanBill
    It would appear that the goal is to create the impression of a shortage more so than the one that actually exists in order to create the demand in the population for this forbidden fruit.

    'You can't have it' in the minds of many will make them clamor for it all the more. This is reverse psychology on the weak of mind.

    I hope that so many people will refuse the vaccine that that becomes the real problem for the pushers of this largely manufactured pandemic.

    Replies: @anonymous, @Guest007, @J.Ross, @anon, @Achmed E. Newman, @Jonathan Mason

    St. Augustine was one of the leading thinkers of his day, and he regarded magnetism as a proof of miracles, since metal filings could be moved with no visible means of moving them.

    Covid-19 deniers are rather similar, arguing that since you can’t see the virus, then it doesn’t exist, so it must be a hoax.

    Now, the Black Death, that was a real disease for you with buboes and pus and stuff.

    Smallpox has been eradicated worldwide, but that had nothing to do with vaccines, it was just that people exercised a constitutional right not to have smallpox.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @Jonathan Mason

    The virus is real enough, but the panic over it is absurd. The fatality rate, if one can believe any of the statistics, is similar to the annual flu if one can deduct the motorcycle incidents and other ailments currently being counted because the rules and payment structure encourages them to be included.

    People are walking around with HIV and Tuberculosis, just to name two conditions that are transmissible, and are deadly. There's no panic over them.

    Your use of denier gives you away. There are very few people who deny the existence of the virus or at least some thing that is making people sick and killing some. There are many that think this situation is overblown and done so for a reason.

    TPTsB are using this manufactured panic to keep people's gaze away from the robbery going on by the Fed, Treasury, Wall St, and major corporate interests at the current time. That looting along with the destruction of small business is the reason for the lockdown as it helps decimate the population's ability to survive. Bankruptcies are the goal, so the already wealthy can purchase the remaining assets of the country at bargain basement prices, all made possible by free currency courtesy of the Fed.

    In a short while, the news will be wall to wall coverage of how well the vaccines work and the panic is over because the looting will have finished so the scary bug is no longer needed. The bulk of the citizenry will have been reduced to serfs and feudalism 2.0 start in earnest.

    BTW - you can shove your condescension - you know where.

  225. @Kronos
    @Simon Tugmutton

    Well he eats upper class human junk food. You know how much plastic is in a 65+ year old heiress?

    Did the video analogy make sense? Those selfish people thought they’d get away by taking the life preservers and lifeboats first right? Only to be killed first by the mega sharks leaving others on the still somewhat safe sinking boat more time to devise an escape.

    Replies: @Simon Tugmutton

    Yes, the metaphor was not lost on me. Too bad they used such grainy stock for the shark. Too cheap to make a rubber one, I guess.

  226. @Clyde
    @John Up North

    Chicago has to be the world capital of diaperfaces. It’s unsettling to have a white guy jog by me and deliberately make eye contact with me before he virtue signals me and pulls up his face diaper on to his dopey mug.
    The people who jog past me are usually black and wearing a mask that must be glued on. Blacks' are fearful and superstitious the way Steve says. Plus in my fairly liberal county the media has done a great job of brainwashing fear into people. The average person or couple out for a walk/stroll have their face masks firmly in place. I go for a (fast) walk I never mask up. If I pass by someone they do all kinds of humorous maneuvers to get 10ft away.

    On the other hand I would not go to an indoor basketball game even with two masks on. On the internet. I see photos of people with two masks on, layering up. If I had to fly somewhere I would do a double mask and they would be effective masks. N95 etc.

    I was at the dentist on Saturday. I was pleasantly surprised how little Covid fear there was. He took care of me efficiently. Staff was cheerful.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    I was at the dentist on Saturday. I was pleasantly surprised how little Covid fear there was. He took care of me efficiently. Staff was cheerful.

    Dentists are massively at risk for Covid-19, because if ever they was a profession that involved getting in your face, then dentistry is it. Also high speed drilling creates aerosols at very close range.

    If your dentist was not taking Covid-19 precautions, then he is a nutcase.

    I was at the dentist last week and had surgery on my gums, and the dentist and his assistant were extremely cheerful, so much so that we all took selfies together after the work was done, but they will still masked, gowned, and gloved down, and hand sanitizer was much in evidence.

    There is a lot of debate as to how useful masks are for the general public, but a thought it came to me today on my which is that it is much harder to put your hands to your mouth or scratch your nose when wearing a mask, so the mask acts as a reminder to sanitize your hands before touching your face, which might well reduce the risk of transmission of a virus from door handles or bus seats or any contaminated surface.

    In populations where 100% of adults are wearing face masks, it is almost impossible not to be aware of infection control risk at all times, and to also pay attention to hand washing and social distancing.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    @Jonathan Mason


    I was at the dentist last week and had surgery on my gums, and the dentist and his assistant were extremely cheerful, so much so that we all took selfies together after the work was done, but they will still masked, gowned, and gloved down, and hand sanitizer was much in evidence.
     
    I had minor dentistry as in, a crown was cemented into place and one x-ray was taken for a tooth that was very painful four days ago, but has now receded back to non-painful. For these two procedures I wore a mask and so did my dentist. For more serious procedures, drilling, surgery, root canals and gum work, I don't know how he additionally protects himself. He has air purifiers in each room. He had up a lot of Christmas decorations in the waiting room.
    I told him that if I were a dentist I would take hydroxychloroquine each day. This did not register with him.
  227. @Polynikes
    @AnotherDad

    Except the vaccine compensation fund wasn’t implemented because of the polio vaccine. Or the measles vaccine. Which as you say, people voluntarily rushed to get.

    It was implemented after a false swine flu scare in the 70s where the govt helped rush a crappy vaccine to market in under a year. Sound familiar?

    Good vaccines and sound science don’t need liability protection. People would get the polio vaccine even if it had a 1% complication rate. The disease was that bad.

    This vaccine isn’t needed by most. And any forcing it by govts is just scaremongering politicians trying to unwind the harm they’ve done without taking responsibility.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    [The US childhood “vaccine court”] was implemented after a false swine flu scare in the 70s where the govt helped rush a crappy vaccine to market in under a year.

    True in the sense that legislation passed in 1986 is “after” 1976, but a big Citation Needed on your implicitly claimed cause and effect. Wikipedia for what it’s worth claims it was due to the controversy about the old fashioned, and almost certainly superior whole cell pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine. That eventually resulted in an acellular replacement vaccine that only protects against one of this bacteria’s toxins, which another Unz.com commentator says is a bad idea, there’s a second toxin which needs to be added.

    Wikipedia cites a New York Times article that makes easily falsifiable claims that by the end of 1984, there was only one company making this whole cell vaccine for the US, and doctors were having to ration the use of the available doses.

    Your claim also doesn’t make sense because this new system only covers childhood vaccines, it wouldn’t have covered the bulk, or perhaps almost all claims against the all ages 1976 flu vaccine.

  228. @Jonathan Mason
    @RoatanBill

    St. Augustine was one of the leading thinkers of his day, and he regarded magnetism as a proof of miracles, since metal filings could be moved with no visible means of moving them.

    Covid-19 deniers are rather similar, arguing that since you can't see the virus, then it doesn't exist, so it must be a hoax.

    Now, the Black Death, that was a real disease for you with buboes and pus and stuff.

    Smallpox has been eradicated worldwide, but that had nothing to do with vaccines, it was just that people exercised a constitutional right not to have smallpox.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    The virus is real enough, but the panic over it is absurd. The fatality rate, if one can believe any of the statistics, is similar to the annual flu if one can deduct the motorcycle incidents and other ailments currently being counted because the rules and payment structure encourages them to be included.

    People are walking around with HIV and Tuberculosis, just to name two conditions that are transmissible, and are deadly. There’s no panic over them.

    Your use of denier gives you away. There are very few people who deny the existence of the virus or at least some thing that is making people sick and killing some. There are many that think this situation is overblown and done so for a reason.

    TPTsB are using this manufactured panic to keep people’s gaze away from the robbery going on by the Fed, Treasury, Wall St, and major corporate interests at the current time. That looting along with the destruction of small business is the reason for the lockdown as it helps decimate the population’s ability to survive. Bankruptcies are the goal, so the already wealthy can purchase the remaining assets of the country at bargain basement prices, all made possible by free currency courtesy of the Fed.

    In a short while, the news will be wall to wall coverage of how well the vaccines work and the panic is over because the looting will have finished so the scary bug is no longer needed. The bulk of the citizenry will have been reduced to serfs and feudalism 2.0 start in earnest.

    BTW – you can shove your condescension – you know where.

    • Thanks: Mark G.
  229. @RoatanBill
    @Guest007

    The pandemic has almost nothing to do with the virus. This is a manufactured panic to elicit the desired response from people easily led around by propaganda.

    Big Pharma will make a fortune. Gov't gets to flex its muscles by imprisoning people without due process or even a criminal complaint. The medical mafia gets to control the population and ignore their long standing dictum of do no harm by going along with forced vaccinations using a concoction obviously not properly developed or tested using decades of norms for similar activities.

    The force will be applied by employers, private businesses that will refuse to serve those not vaccinated. The politicians are dog whistling this suggestion at every opportunity. That's just like avoiding the 1st Amendment as long as the gov't doesn't do it, but benefits the gov't nonetheless.

    This is tyrannical with full intent.

    This scam is benefiting the predators in the society that wears suits and have fancy degrees. I hope there's a wicked backlash coming for the political class that invented this scam and all the shills pushing it by a population that won't get injected, like the 55% of NYC firemen.

    Replies: @guest007

    Why can’t Covid-19 truthers understand that they are hard to take seriously when they call virtuall all health care workers, public health officials, and the thousands of families who have lost a loved one liars. What is the technical basis for the claims about the vaccine, not needing social distancing or masks, or not needing to be vaccinated.

    Why are Americans so uninformed about the history of public health in the U.S. and so lacking of knowledge about previous pandemics?

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @guest007

    Who is calling anyone a liar? Why make up such nonsense and then pin it on me via a reply to me?

    Healthcare workers are drones told what to do by higher ups. They typically have no access to electron microscopes or other diagnostic gear to actually isolate a pathogen. They are told that this pathogen exists, that it is a virus and that the PCR test will confirm infection, when the inventor of the test specifically indicated that to be untrue. The average healthcare worker is as much in the dark as the rest of us because we all get our information second, third, ..., twelfth hand.

    Public health officials are politicians where some used to be doctors. Why trust a politician?

    Families are victims of this and have no expertise to offer. I don't care what a family believes as they aren't competent to provide any judgement past their family member died and they were told it was a bug. Unreliable testimony.

    Public health policy is like every other public policy - a control mechanism and a way of rewarding cronies.

    Show me absolute proof of the entire virus genome being decoded. Show me the proof that the PCR test is reliable in its current usage. Show me the proof that the virus is the direct cause of the illnesses as opposed to being along for the ride.

    Years ago, pellagra was misdiagnosed as a bug when it was actually a vitamin deficiency. People make mistakes.

    You apparently can't even keep truther and denier straight.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Jonathan Mason

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @guest007


    Why are Americans so uninformed about the history of public health in the U.S. and so lacking of knowledge about previous pandemics?
     
    We have a hostile ruling elite that now literally wants most of us dead, and in the meantime has for more than a century been dumbing down US education at all levels (with only a blip in the scheme of things in response to Sputnik the satellite)? See Robert Heinlein for example in Expanded Universe, and several of his juveniles set in the very near future for a take on this that you might not have seen. Or note that Why Johnny Can't Read was published in 1955 and we're still fighting Dick and Jane and Their Running Dog Spot.

    We have to judge if "Big Pharma," BioNTech and Moderna which are not exactly examples of that, and the FDA can still be trusted to do the right thing. One reason I think they can, and dismiss the claims this is a scheme to kill off a lot of us, is that revenge against such an attempt is way too easy, rifles are a thing. And if you were to, for example, kill off half of America with a bogus vaccine, there is no place on earth where you would be safe, except I suppose in another nuclear power. But of course they could already do that with many other vaccines that a lot of adults take, like the ones for the flu, and TDaP boosters.

    I also have the biomedical domain knowledge needed to see if these entities are making sense, and so far they are. ZeroHedge just dropped a copy of the FDA staff briefing document for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, as I understand it there will be a meeting in a couple of days where this vaccine will be discussed and perhaps approved. I'll be back today or tomorrow with a report on its contents.
    , @anon
    @guest007

    Why are Americans so uninformed

    Because that's how the American social and cultural elites want them to be.

  230. @guest007
    @RoatanBill

    Why can't Covid-19 truthers understand that they are hard to take seriously when they call virtuall all health care workers, public health officials, and the thousands of families who have lost a loved one liars. What is the technical basis for the claims about the vaccine, not needing social distancing or masks, or not needing to be vaccinated.

    Why are Americans so uninformed about the history of public health in the U.S. and so lacking of knowledge about previous pandemics?

    Replies: @RoatanBill, @That Would Be Telling, @anon

    Who is calling anyone a liar? Why make up such nonsense and then pin it on me via a reply to me?

    Healthcare workers are drones told what to do by higher ups. They typically have no access to electron microscopes or other diagnostic gear to actually isolate a pathogen. They are told that this pathogen exists, that it is a virus and that the PCR test will confirm infection, when the inventor of the test specifically indicated that to be untrue. The average healthcare worker is as much in the dark as the rest of us because we all get our information second, third, …, twelfth hand.

    Public health officials are politicians where some used to be doctors. Why trust a politician?

    Families are victims of this and have no expertise to offer. I don’t care what a family believes as they aren’t competent to provide any judgement past their family member died and they were told it was a bug. Unreliable testimony.

    Public health policy is like every other public policy – a control mechanism and a way of rewarding cronies.

    Show me absolute proof of the entire virus genome being decoded. Show me the proof that the PCR test is reliable in its current usage. Show me the proof that the virus is the direct cause of the illnesses as opposed to being along for the ride.

    Years ago, pellagra was misdiagnosed as a bug when it was actually a vitamin deficiency. People make mistakes.

    You apparently can’t even keep truther and denier straight.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @RoatanBill


    when the inventor of the test specifically indicated that to be untrue
     
    Nope, that individual was just one of several who developed PCR as a biological lab technique, and his only credentials for tests is that he surely learned a lot about the use of PCR in tests when that became a thing.

    While we're at it, I went to the trouble of hunting down the claims about what he said, and they're bulls***. The only relevant one is that it's a qualitative test, not a quantitative one. That is, it'll tell you if someone has 2-3 bits of the virus genome, but not how much, nor if they're from viable viruses or viral debris people are still clearing out of their system, etc. So this is a ludicrous strawman attack, since this is stuff the people who really count know, others will just make up s*** if needed, like, oh, this claim about what he said.


    Show me absolute proof of the entire virus genome being decoded. Show me the proof that the PCR test is reliable in its current usage. Show me the proof that the virus is the direct cause of the illnesses as opposed to being along for the ride.
     
    Define exactly what evidence would satisfy you for each of these.

    You're making extraordinary claims, you can at least be precise enough about them so that I for example could design experiments to prove or disprove you implicit assertions. But first, drop the "absolute" from your demands, that's religion, not science. Also, I have no idea whatsoever where you came up with the idea that the whole viral genome hasn't been decoded, and more importantly, it's irrelevant, it doesn't matter a wit for both RT-PCR diagnosis or vaccine development.

    Heck, while I'm at it, who cares about RT-PCR extreme accuracy or not, it's got two big uses, clinical for differential diagnosis and treatment, explain how it fails for that, and the public health uses don't matter since politicians don't heed early warnings of almost every type including it. "There or along for the ride," human challenge testing outside of vaccine tests is unethical in the West, but we have challenged animals with it. Although not much of that, it requires BSL-3 lab facilities. If you don't understand that last point, and its implications for all of this, you're too short for this ride.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @RoatanBill

    You are partly right, but medical science is and always has been a very imprecise art, but the biggest advances in the treatment of diseases have usually been based on scientific findings.

    I would kind of agree with you that the covid-19 is nothing worse than the usual flu, perhaps in a bad year, except that a good friend of mine was very sick and in the intensive care for 6 weeks, and his wife was told three times that he was going to die.

    He is a dentist, and admittedly 70 years old, but as fit as the proverbial fiddle, with no underlying ailments of any kind, so it is pretty scary to see somebody a year older than me and probably in better shape than me, only managing to cheat the grim reaper by a whisker.

    Also take note of the younger but very vigorous British prime minister Boris Johnson, who was in pretty bad shape too. Admittedly is somewhat rotund, but in general you would not expect a man of his age and vigor to be close to death.

    Now when my grandparents were young it's very different story. One of my grandmothers died before the age of 30 from TB. One of my grandfathers died at the age of 48 from a stroke. But with advances in modern medicine expectations of life expectancy in developed nations are much greater than before.

    Personally I have spent the last 2 months swimming laps in a pool for half an hour a day to increase my lung capacity and ability to resist covid-19, but it still scares me.

    I think it is rather ridiculous to say that the virus panic is for some sort of political ends. This is a pandemic, not an Ameridemic, meaning that it is going on all over the world, and every nation is having to confront its own demons and devise its best plan to move forward.

    Just look at the nations of the Caribbean. Some, like Barbados are asking tourists to take three tests, remain in quarantine, download apps, wear wristbands, and stick to so-called corridors of resilience. Others like the Dominican republic, I'll just saying to hell with it, everybody will can come in, and if they get sick we will pay their medical expenses!

    I don't really know who is right or wrong. The way people, including governments, respond to pressures is determined by culture, history, and other factors.

    Some regional leaders have been re-elected this year, for example Holness in Jamaica with a massively increased majority, and other governments, for example in Trinidad and Guyana have fallen, but regardless of whether governments have been quarantine happy or laissez faire, they seem to have been able to carry the support of the populations on both sides of the equation.

    Replies: @anon, @RoatanBill

  231. @guest007
    @RoatanBill

    Why can't Covid-19 truthers understand that they are hard to take seriously when they call virtuall all health care workers, public health officials, and the thousands of families who have lost a loved one liars. What is the technical basis for the claims about the vaccine, not needing social distancing or masks, or not needing to be vaccinated.

    Why are Americans so uninformed about the history of public health in the U.S. and so lacking of knowledge about previous pandemics?

    Replies: @RoatanBill, @That Would Be Telling, @anon

    Why are Americans so uninformed about the history of public health in the U.S. and so lacking of knowledge about previous pandemics?

    We have a hostile ruling elite that now literally wants most of us dead, and in the meantime has for more than a century been dumbing down US education at all levels (with only a blip in the scheme of things in response to Sputnik the satellite)? See Robert Heinlein for example in Expanded Universe, and several of his juveniles set in the very near future for a take on this that you might not have seen. Or note that Why Johnny Can’t Read was published in 1955 and we’re still fighting Dick and Jane and Their Running Dog Spot.

    We have to judge if “Big Pharma,” BioNTech and Moderna which are not exactly examples of that, and the FDA can still be trusted to do the right thing. One reason I think they can, and dismiss the claims this is a scheme to kill off a lot of us, is that revenge against such an attempt is way too easy, rifles are a thing. And if you were to, for example, kill off half of America with a bogus vaccine, there is no place on earth where you would be safe, except I suppose in another nuclear power. But of course they could already do that with many other vaccines that a lot of adults take, like the ones for the flu, and TDaP boosters.

    I also have the biomedical domain knowledge needed to see if these entities are making sense, and so far they are. ZeroHedge just dropped a copy of the FDA staff briefing document for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, as I understand it there will be a meeting in a couple of days where this vaccine will be discussed and perhaps approved. I’ll be back today or tomorrow with a report on its contents.

  232. I recall reading something by a health worker. This choice seems morally difficult in the abstract, but when it actually happens to you, when you are actually forced to make the choice, it is the easiest, most natural, most instinctively right thing in the world to give care to the younger person and to let the older person die. There isn’t even a problem.

  233. @RoatanBill
    @guest007

    Who is calling anyone a liar? Why make up such nonsense and then pin it on me via a reply to me?

    Healthcare workers are drones told what to do by higher ups. They typically have no access to electron microscopes or other diagnostic gear to actually isolate a pathogen. They are told that this pathogen exists, that it is a virus and that the PCR test will confirm infection, when the inventor of the test specifically indicated that to be untrue. The average healthcare worker is as much in the dark as the rest of us because we all get our information second, third, ..., twelfth hand.

    Public health officials are politicians where some used to be doctors. Why trust a politician?

    Families are victims of this and have no expertise to offer. I don't care what a family believes as they aren't competent to provide any judgement past their family member died and they were told it was a bug. Unreliable testimony.

    Public health policy is like every other public policy - a control mechanism and a way of rewarding cronies.

    Show me absolute proof of the entire virus genome being decoded. Show me the proof that the PCR test is reliable in its current usage. Show me the proof that the virus is the direct cause of the illnesses as opposed to being along for the ride.

    Years ago, pellagra was misdiagnosed as a bug when it was actually a vitamin deficiency. People make mistakes.

    You apparently can't even keep truther and denier straight.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Jonathan Mason

    when the inventor of the test specifically indicated that to be untrue

    Nope, that individual was just one of several who developed PCR as a biological lab technique, and his only credentials for tests is that he surely learned a lot about the use of PCR in tests when that became a thing.

    While we’re at it, I went to the trouble of hunting down the claims about what he said, and they’re bulls***. The only relevant one is that it’s a qualitative test, not a quantitative one. That is, it’ll tell you if someone has 2-3 bits of the virus genome, but not how much, nor if they’re from viable viruses or viral debris people are still clearing out of their system, etc. So this is a ludicrous strawman attack, since this is stuff the people who really count know, others will just make up s*** if needed, like, oh, this claim about what he said.

    Show me absolute proof of the entire virus genome being decoded. Show me the proof that the PCR test is reliable in its current usage. Show me the proof that the virus is the direct cause of the illnesses as opposed to being along for the ride.

    Define exactly what evidence would satisfy you for each of these.

    You’re making extraordinary claims, you can at least be precise enough about them so that I for example could design experiments to prove or disprove you implicit assertions. But first, drop the “absolute” from your demands, that’s religion, not science. Also, I have no idea whatsoever where you came up with the idea that the whole viral genome hasn’t been decoded, and more importantly, it’s irrelevant, it doesn’t matter a wit for both RT-PCR diagnosis or vaccine development.

    Heck, while I’m at it, who cares about RT-PCR extreme accuracy or not, it’s got two big uses, clinical for differential diagnosis and treatment, explain how it fails for that, and the public health uses don’t matter since politicians don’t heed early warnings of almost every type including it. “There or along for the ride,” human challenge testing outside of vaccine tests is unethical in the West, but we have challenged animals with it. Although not much of that, it requires BSL-3 lab facilities. If you don’t understand that last point, and its implications for all of this, you’re too short for this ride.

    • Agree: vhrm
    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @That Would Be Telling

    I'm not making any claims. I'm asking your side to show empirical evidence and the entire chain of evidence that leads from virus to deaths.

    The PCR test is so unreliable as to be merely a prop in a psyop. Show where the virus has been identified as THE controlling element in the deaths of people that have it in their systems at time of death and describe the mechanism whereby it operates.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @That Would Be Telling, @vhrm

  234. @That Would Be Telling
    @RoatanBill


    when the inventor of the test specifically indicated that to be untrue
     
    Nope, that individual was just one of several who developed PCR as a biological lab technique, and his only credentials for tests is that he surely learned a lot about the use of PCR in tests when that became a thing.

    While we're at it, I went to the trouble of hunting down the claims about what he said, and they're bulls***. The only relevant one is that it's a qualitative test, not a quantitative one. That is, it'll tell you if someone has 2-3 bits of the virus genome, but not how much, nor if they're from viable viruses or viral debris people are still clearing out of their system, etc. So this is a ludicrous strawman attack, since this is stuff the people who really count know, others will just make up s*** if needed, like, oh, this claim about what he said.


    Show me absolute proof of the entire virus genome being decoded. Show me the proof that the PCR test is reliable in its current usage. Show me the proof that the virus is the direct cause of the illnesses as opposed to being along for the ride.
     
    Define exactly what evidence would satisfy you for each of these.

    You're making extraordinary claims, you can at least be precise enough about them so that I for example could design experiments to prove or disprove you implicit assertions. But first, drop the "absolute" from your demands, that's religion, not science. Also, I have no idea whatsoever where you came up with the idea that the whole viral genome hasn't been decoded, and more importantly, it's irrelevant, it doesn't matter a wit for both RT-PCR diagnosis or vaccine development.

    Heck, while I'm at it, who cares about RT-PCR extreme accuracy or not, it's got two big uses, clinical for differential diagnosis and treatment, explain how it fails for that, and the public health uses don't matter since politicians don't heed early warnings of almost every type including it. "There or along for the ride," human challenge testing outside of vaccine tests is unethical in the West, but we have challenged animals with it. Although not much of that, it requires BSL-3 lab facilities. If you don't understand that last point, and its implications for all of this, you're too short for this ride.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    I’m not making any claims. I’m asking your side to show empirical evidence and the entire chain of evidence that leads from virus to deaths.

    The PCR test is so unreliable as to be merely a prop in a psyop. Show where the virus has been identified as THE controlling element in the deaths of people that have it in their systems at time of death and describe the mechanism whereby it operates.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @RoatanBill

    Total deaths in the U.S. from all causes are up 12% so far in 2020 over 2019.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @RoatanBill


    I’m not making any claims. I’m asking your side to show empirical evidence and the entire chain of evidence that leads from virus to deaths.
     
    You're a troll as well as a liar. Without specifying what you require as evidence, you try to set up anyone stupid enough to dance to your tune for endless games in which no amount of evidence will ever satisfy your demand for absolutes, which if you had a clue about science, you would know don't exist as such.

    TL;DR: You are indeed too short for this ride.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    , @vhrm
    @RoatanBill

    Dude, we just most recently went through much of this in a thread two days ago with your (much more polite) fellow traveler Marco de Wit
    You can read some of it e.g. here (it has links to articles and papers) https://www.unz.com/isteve/my-interview/#comment-4325908

    The virus has been isolated and sequenced hundreds of times, the people who have this "flu-like" sickness called COVID-19 are seen to have the virus while also not having flu viruses or bacterial pneumonia.

    There's just no room to attack the basic scenario that there's a newish respiratory virus that spread around the world starting in late 2019 and is causing some excess death, especially in the elderly. It's all very consistent and makes sense and has been independently verified by public and private sectors in several advanced countries, even those who are generally unfriendly to each-other (at least pair-wise) like Russia, EU (France, italy, Germany, Sweden, etc) , UK, US, China, Japan, Korea, Pakistan and India. Even Iran is on board.

    There are some mysteries about details of all the effects of SARS-Cov-2 and where exactly it came from, but overall it behaves similarly to other respiratory viruses like the flu, the various "common cold" viruses and its close cousins SARS and MERS from the past 2 decades. There's no big mystery or requirement for some super extraordinary level of evidence.

    The "died of" vs "died with" is a decent question. The immediate cause of death is always that your body stopped living. WHY it stopped is always a judgement call. There's forces that drive both under reporting and over-reporting of COVID as the cause of death. But in the US the numbers are probably within a factor of 2.

    So far only 2/3rds of excess deaths during the pandemic are attributed to COVID-19 deaths:


    "There are several potential reasons for this undercount," Woolf said in a university news release.

    "Some of it may reflect under-reporting; it takes a while for some of these data to come in. Some cases might involve patients with COVID-19 who died from related complications, such as heart disease, and those complications may have been listed as the cause of death rather than COVID-19," Woolf explained.

    "But a third possibility, the one we're quite concerned about, is indirect mortality -- deaths caused by the response to the pandemic," he said. "People who never had the virus may have died from other causes because of the spillover effects of the pandemic, such as delayed medical care, economic hardship or emotional distress."
    https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-07-01/numbers-of-non-covid-19-deaths-up-during-pandemic
     
    A CDC study through Sept 2020 showing similar numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm?s_cid=mm6942e2_w

    The cost-benefit analysis on the lockdowns hasn't really been done... and if you search for info you'll see that there hasn't bene much progress or talk about it in the US since March
    (e.g. this Volokh Conspiracy post noting there's none being done:
    https://reason.com/volokh/2020/03/05/covid-19-and-qalys/ )

    It looks like some calls for cost-benefit thinking paid off in the UK
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2020/11/how-the-cost-benefit-analysis-is-contributing-to-johnsons-climbdown-on-lockdowns-and-tiers.html

    Point being... there's plenty of room for discussion about how many people it's really killing (or how many life-years it's taking) and criticism of the response to the pandemic and whether it's worth it.

    But the "there's no virus" and the "the virus is an innocent bystander" paths you'll get no traction with because they've been ruled out convincingly enough.
  235. @RoatanBill
    @That Would Be Telling

    I'm not making any claims. I'm asking your side to show empirical evidence and the entire chain of evidence that leads from virus to deaths.

    The PCR test is so unreliable as to be merely a prop in a psyop. Show where the virus has been identified as THE controlling element in the deaths of people that have it in their systems at time of death and describe the mechanism whereby it operates.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @That Would Be Telling, @vhrm

    Total deaths in the U.S. from all causes are up 12% so far in 2020 over 2019.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @Steve Sailer

    So what?

    I'm not denying that people are dying of some illness. I'm denying that the medical establishment knows their butts from a hole in the ground as to what the response should be. I'm denying their authority to recommend locking people up in their homes without due process and a charge of some criminal activity that can clearly identify a victim.

    I'm denying absolutely anyone's authority to tell me what to do about this situation due to a clear lack of knowledge verifiable by empirical evidence. I'm denying the political class's authority to declare their solution which is different to the neighboring political authority's solution, meaning this is just an opinion being enforced by the thugs in gov't.

    I'm in no hurry to get sick and possibly die of some illness. I'm also in no hurry to kowtow to a bunch of control freaks that want the entire world to stand still waiting on a vaccine rushed into production for which the legal framework encourages bad decisions due to no consequences under law.

    If you want to take the jab, go for it. I'm not taking it and if you and your kind make life difficult for me and my kind, your asking for resistance that will lead to bloodshed.

  236. @guest007
    @RoatanBill

    Why can't Covid-19 truthers understand that they are hard to take seriously when they call virtuall all health care workers, public health officials, and the thousands of families who have lost a loved one liars. What is the technical basis for the claims about the vaccine, not needing social distancing or masks, or not needing to be vaccinated.

    Why are Americans so uninformed about the history of public health in the U.S. and so lacking of knowledge about previous pandemics?

    Replies: @RoatanBill, @That Would Be Telling, @anon

    Why are Americans so uninformed

    Because that’s how the American social and cultural elites want them to be.

  237. @Steve Sailer
    @RoatanBill

    Total deaths in the U.S. from all causes are up 12% so far in 2020 over 2019.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    So what?

    I’m not denying that people are dying of some illness. I’m denying that the medical establishment knows their butts from a hole in the ground as to what the response should be. I’m denying their authority to recommend locking people up in their homes without due process and a charge of some criminal activity that can clearly identify a victim.

    I’m denying absolutely anyone’s authority to tell me what to do about this situation due to a clear lack of knowledge verifiable by empirical evidence. I’m denying the political class’s authority to declare their solution which is different to the neighboring political authority’s solution, meaning this is just an opinion being enforced by the thugs in gov’t.

    I’m in no hurry to get sick and possibly die of some illness. I’m also in no hurry to kowtow to a bunch of control freaks that want the entire world to stand still waiting on a vaccine rushed into production for which the legal framework encourages bad decisions due to no consequences under law.

    If you want to take the jab, go for it. I’m not taking it and if you and your kind make life difficult for me and my kind, your asking for resistance that will lead to bloodshed.

    • Agree: Ralph B. Seymour
  238. Not giving the vaccine to blacks first would be racist, because it would unfairly protect whites while leaving backs vulnerable to Wuhan. Giving it to blacks first would be unethically testing an unproven drug on them.

    In conclusion, wypipo bees RAYCISS.

  239. @RoatanBill
    @That Would Be Telling

    I'm not making any claims. I'm asking your side to show empirical evidence and the entire chain of evidence that leads from virus to deaths.

    The PCR test is so unreliable as to be merely a prop in a psyop. Show where the virus has been identified as THE controlling element in the deaths of people that have it in their systems at time of death and describe the mechanism whereby it operates.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @That Would Be Telling, @vhrm

    I’m not making any claims. I’m asking your side to show empirical evidence and the entire chain of evidence that leads from virus to deaths.

    You’re a troll as well as a liar. Without specifying what you require as evidence, you try to set up anyone stupid enough to dance to your tune for endless games in which no amount of evidence will ever satisfy your demand for absolutes, which if you had a clue about science, you would know don’t exist as such.

    TL;DR: You are indeed too short for this ride.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @That Would Be Telling

    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers.
    Socrates


    Name calling is your reply.

    Thank you for exposing yourself for what you are.

  240. @That Would Be Telling
    @RoatanBill


    I’m not making any claims. I’m asking your side to show empirical evidence and the entire chain of evidence that leads from virus to deaths.
     
    You're a troll as well as a liar. Without specifying what you require as evidence, you try to set up anyone stupid enough to dance to your tune for endless games in which no amount of evidence will ever satisfy your demand for absolutes, which if you had a clue about science, you would know don't exist as such.

    TL;DR: You are indeed too short for this ride.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers.
    Socrates

    Name calling is your reply.

    Thank you for exposing yourself for what you are.

    • Agree: TTSSYF
  241. @That Would Be Telling
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Given that Pandemrix is a bog standard chicken egg membrane protein antigen except for its special formula of adjuvants and the like, perhaps manufacturing failures in the purification process from the stew of egg membrane cells dead and zombified by the flu virus, etc. etc., well, I know where I'm betting the problem is (cheap socialized medicine countries). If the problem exists at all, in a previous iSteve discussion serious doubt was thrown on the whole claim of narcolepsy, and here we have a new and much lower number, 1 in 55,000 for those 4-18, vs. the previously cited 1 in 16,000. But that cited study is worth looking into.

    That said, no vaccine Phase III "rushed" or normal trial is likely to detect such rare side effects, and except for Novavax these trials are about as big as you get per Dr. "Things I Won't Work With." Do the math, for example for Moderna 30,000 enrolled in their trial, half in the vaccine "arm," a 1 in 15,000 side effect would not likely show you a pattern, might not even show up once. That's why there's a Phase IV which tracts medications after they enter the market unless and until they're withdrawn from it.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    “cheap socialized medicine countries”

    Or you can have expensive private medicine, but the odds are your generic drug will still come from India (cheap!), and their precursor chemicals will still come from China (really cheap!).

    https://fortune.com/2013/05/15/dirty-medicine/

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ranbaxy-whistleblower-reveals-how-he-exposed-massive-pharmaceutical-fraud/

    Among the drugs prescribed to Americans, 80 percent are generic drugs, and 40 percent of drugs are now made overseas in countries such as China and India where U.S. oversight is weaker.

    Generic drug companies, such as Ranbaxy, have to prove their drugs are “bioequivalent,” which means they have the same effect as the brand name. Thakur found Ranbaxy’s drugs were being made for Americans with bioequivalence data that didn’t exist or was made up all together.

    “The key question here is that, does the drug work as intended?” Thakur said. “And do you have the confidence that the drug works as it is intended to do?”

    Miller said, “But the confidence would largely have to be based on the quality of the data.”

    Thakur replied, “Oh absolutely.”

    And without that data, Thakur said, “You don’t know.”

    Thakur reported his findings to the Food and Drug Administration in 2005. Their investigation found Ranbaxy had a “persistent” “pattern” of submitting “untrue statements.” On at least 15 new generic drug applications, auditors found more than 1,600 data errors. This meant their drugs were “potentially unsafe and illegal to sell.”

    Vince Fabiano, a former vice president of Ranbaxy, said, “In essence, they used the fraud as a competitive advantage to build and grow the business here in the U.S.”

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @YetAnotherAnon


    “cheap socialized medicine countries”

    Or you can have expensive private medicine, but the odds are your generic drug will still come from India (cheap!), and their precursor chemicals will still come from China (really cheap!).
     

    Absolutely true, but much less so for biologics like vaccines. A really silly tu quoque since the socialized medicine countries are even more notorious about being cheap with drugs, and that's why Trump's previously discussed here proposals for drug price controls in the US were so insane.
  242. @RoatanBill
    @guest007

    Who is calling anyone a liar? Why make up such nonsense and then pin it on me via a reply to me?

    Healthcare workers are drones told what to do by higher ups. They typically have no access to electron microscopes or other diagnostic gear to actually isolate a pathogen. They are told that this pathogen exists, that it is a virus and that the PCR test will confirm infection, when the inventor of the test specifically indicated that to be untrue. The average healthcare worker is as much in the dark as the rest of us because we all get our information second, third, ..., twelfth hand.

    Public health officials are politicians where some used to be doctors. Why trust a politician?

    Families are victims of this and have no expertise to offer. I don't care what a family believes as they aren't competent to provide any judgement past their family member died and they were told it was a bug. Unreliable testimony.

    Public health policy is like every other public policy - a control mechanism and a way of rewarding cronies.

    Show me absolute proof of the entire virus genome being decoded. Show me the proof that the PCR test is reliable in its current usage. Show me the proof that the virus is the direct cause of the illnesses as opposed to being along for the ride.

    Years ago, pellagra was misdiagnosed as a bug when it was actually a vitamin deficiency. People make mistakes.

    You apparently can't even keep truther and denier straight.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Jonathan Mason

    You are partly right, but medical science is and always has been a very imprecise art, but the biggest advances in the treatment of diseases have usually been based on scientific findings.

    I would kind of agree with you that the covid-19 is nothing worse than the usual flu, perhaps in a bad year, except that a good friend of mine was very sick and in the intensive care for 6 weeks, and his wife was told three times that he was going to die.

    He is a dentist, and admittedly 70 years old, but as fit as the proverbial fiddle, with no underlying ailments of any kind, so it is pretty scary to see somebody a year older than me and probably in better shape than me, only managing to cheat the grim reaper by a whisker.

    Also take note of the younger but very vigorous British prime minister Boris Johnson, who was in pretty bad shape too. Admittedly is somewhat rotund, but in general you would not expect a man of his age and vigor to be close to death.

    Now when my grandparents were young it’s very different story. One of my grandmothers died before the age of 30 from TB. One of my grandfathers died at the age of 48 from a stroke. But with advances in modern medicine expectations of life expectancy in developed nations are much greater than before.

    Personally I have spent the last 2 months swimming laps in a pool for half an hour a day to increase my lung capacity and ability to resist covid-19, but it still scares me.

    I think it is rather ridiculous to say that the virus panic is for some sort of political ends. This is a pandemic, not an Ameridemic, meaning that it is going on all over the world, and every nation is having to confront its own demons and devise its best plan to move forward.

    Just look at the nations of the Caribbean. Some, like Barbados are asking tourists to take three tests, remain in quarantine, download apps, wear wristbands, and stick to so-called corridors of resilience. Others like the Dominican republic, I’ll just saying to hell with it, everybody will can come in, and if they get sick we will pay their medical expenses!

    I don’t really know who is right or wrong. The way people, including governments, respond to pressures is determined by culture, history, and other factors.

    Some regional leaders have been re-elected this year, for example Holness in Jamaica with a massively increased majority, and other governments, for example in Trinidad and Guyana have fallen, but regardless of whether governments have been quarantine happy or laissez faire, they seem to have been able to carry the support of the populations on both sides of the equation.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Jonathan Mason

    Others like the Dominican republic, I’ll just saying to hell with it, everybody will can come in, and if they get sick we will pay their medical expenses!

    Perhaps because the DR claims a very high success rate vs. COVID-19 thanks to this doctor.

    https://dominicantoday.com/dr/local/2020/11/30/doctor-explains-99-3-of-covid-19-patients-treated-with-ivermectin-recovered-in-five-days/


    “Our results were immediate; the use of Ivermectin, together with Azithromycin and Zinc (plus the usual vitamins that tend to increase the immune response of individuals) produced an impressive variation in the course of the disease; it was demonstrated that 99. 3% of the patients recovered quickly when the treatment was started in the first five days of proven symptoms, with an average of 3.5 days, and a fall of more than 50% in the rate and duration of hospitalizations, and reducing from 9 to 1 the mortality rate, when the treatment was started on time.”,
     
    An anti viral, an anti bacterial and zinc. Three inexpensive ingredients, alleged 99.3% success rate. No profits for big pharma, just recovery for sick people. Bangladesh has also applied ivermectin to this SARS but I do not have that article link handy.

    There are still strange things about this virus and the politics around it.
    , @RoatanBill
    @Jonathan Mason

    Medicine is an art form that uses some science. Therefore, it may not dictate policy. Without all the machines invented by engineers and real scientists, the average doctor would be just a notch above a shaman.

    The biggest advances in the treatment of diseases has been via the surgeon. They cut out what's diseased and hope for the body's immune system to cope.

    The medical establishment has been finding a cure for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, Parkinson's, dementia, etc, etc, etc for 50 years with little to nothing to show for it. Face it - the medical establishment is mostly bullshit and public relations while living a good life by having the gov't protect their cartel.

    I'm not impressed with modern medicine.

    There are two sides to this Covid crisis, medical and political. The political side is the real danger to the future of a civilized society.

    No one, absolutely no one, has the authority to lock people up without a criminal charge that can identify a unique victim and do so without a proper hearing. The concept of prior restraint or pre crime incarceration is what we are seeing now. All the governors and others mandating lockdowns should be tried and hung for abuse of office as no law can take away anyone's natural rights despite what legislatures do routinely now.

    The proper political response should have been to provide the citizenry the best possible information available and allow them to decide how to proceed. Those that want to become hermits are free to do so. Those that want to wear masks to protect themselves are free to do so. Those that want to take the jab are free to do so. What no one is free to do is to tell those of use not inclined to absorb the propaganda what to do.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @That Would Be Telling

  243. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason
    @RoatanBill

    You are partly right, but medical science is and always has been a very imprecise art, but the biggest advances in the treatment of diseases have usually been based on scientific findings.

    I would kind of agree with you that the covid-19 is nothing worse than the usual flu, perhaps in a bad year, except that a good friend of mine was very sick and in the intensive care for 6 weeks, and his wife was told three times that he was going to die.

    He is a dentist, and admittedly 70 years old, but as fit as the proverbial fiddle, with no underlying ailments of any kind, so it is pretty scary to see somebody a year older than me and probably in better shape than me, only managing to cheat the grim reaper by a whisker.

    Also take note of the younger but very vigorous British prime minister Boris Johnson, who was in pretty bad shape too. Admittedly is somewhat rotund, but in general you would not expect a man of his age and vigor to be close to death.

    Now when my grandparents were young it's very different story. One of my grandmothers died before the age of 30 from TB. One of my grandfathers died at the age of 48 from a stroke. But with advances in modern medicine expectations of life expectancy in developed nations are much greater than before.

    Personally I have spent the last 2 months swimming laps in a pool for half an hour a day to increase my lung capacity and ability to resist covid-19, but it still scares me.

    I think it is rather ridiculous to say that the virus panic is for some sort of political ends. This is a pandemic, not an Ameridemic, meaning that it is going on all over the world, and every nation is having to confront its own demons and devise its best plan to move forward.

    Just look at the nations of the Caribbean. Some, like Barbados are asking tourists to take three tests, remain in quarantine, download apps, wear wristbands, and stick to so-called corridors of resilience. Others like the Dominican republic, I'll just saying to hell with it, everybody will can come in, and if they get sick we will pay their medical expenses!

    I don't really know who is right or wrong. The way people, including governments, respond to pressures is determined by culture, history, and other factors.

    Some regional leaders have been re-elected this year, for example Holness in Jamaica with a massively increased majority, and other governments, for example in Trinidad and Guyana have fallen, but regardless of whether governments have been quarantine happy or laissez faire, they seem to have been able to carry the support of the populations on both sides of the equation.

    Replies: @anon, @RoatanBill

    Others like the Dominican republic, I’ll just saying to hell with it, everybody will can come in, and if they get sick we will pay their medical expenses!

    Perhaps because the DR claims a very high success rate vs. COVID-19 thanks to this doctor.

    https://dominicantoday.com/dr/local/2020/11/30/doctor-explains-99-3-of-covid-19-patients-treated-with-ivermectin-recovered-in-five-days/

    “Our results were immediate; the use of Ivermectin, together with Azithromycin and Zinc (plus the usual vitamins that tend to increase the immune response of individuals) produced an impressive variation in the course of the disease; it was demonstrated that 99. 3% of the patients recovered quickly when the treatment was started in the first five days of proven symptoms, with an average of 3.5 days, and a fall of more than 50% in the rate and duration of hospitalizations, and reducing from 9 to 1 the mortality rate, when the treatment was started on time.”,

    An anti viral, an anti bacterial and zinc. Three inexpensive ingredients, alleged 99.3% success rate. No profits for big pharma, just recovery for sick people. Bangladesh has also applied ivermectin to this SARS but I do not have that article link handy.

    There are still strange things about this virus and the politics around it.

  244. @Jonathan Mason
    @RoatanBill

    You are partly right, but medical science is and always has been a very imprecise art, but the biggest advances in the treatment of diseases have usually been based on scientific findings.

    I would kind of agree with you that the covid-19 is nothing worse than the usual flu, perhaps in a bad year, except that a good friend of mine was very sick and in the intensive care for 6 weeks, and his wife was told three times that he was going to die.

    He is a dentist, and admittedly 70 years old, but as fit as the proverbial fiddle, with no underlying ailments of any kind, so it is pretty scary to see somebody a year older than me and probably in better shape than me, only managing to cheat the grim reaper by a whisker.

    Also take note of the younger but very vigorous British prime minister Boris Johnson, who was in pretty bad shape too. Admittedly is somewhat rotund, but in general you would not expect a man of his age and vigor to be close to death.

    Now when my grandparents were young it's very different story. One of my grandmothers died before the age of 30 from TB. One of my grandfathers died at the age of 48 from a stroke. But with advances in modern medicine expectations of life expectancy in developed nations are much greater than before.

    Personally I have spent the last 2 months swimming laps in a pool for half an hour a day to increase my lung capacity and ability to resist covid-19, but it still scares me.

    I think it is rather ridiculous to say that the virus panic is for some sort of political ends. This is a pandemic, not an Ameridemic, meaning that it is going on all over the world, and every nation is having to confront its own demons and devise its best plan to move forward.

    Just look at the nations of the Caribbean. Some, like Barbados are asking tourists to take three tests, remain in quarantine, download apps, wear wristbands, and stick to so-called corridors of resilience. Others like the Dominican republic, I'll just saying to hell with it, everybody will can come in, and if they get sick we will pay their medical expenses!

    I don't really know who is right or wrong. The way people, including governments, respond to pressures is determined by culture, history, and other factors.

    Some regional leaders have been re-elected this year, for example Holness in Jamaica with a massively increased majority, and other governments, for example in Trinidad and Guyana have fallen, but regardless of whether governments have been quarantine happy or laissez faire, they seem to have been able to carry the support of the populations on both sides of the equation.

    Replies: @anon, @RoatanBill

    Medicine is an art form that uses some science. Therefore, it may not dictate policy. Without all the machines invented by engineers and real scientists, the average doctor would be just a notch above a shaman.

    The biggest advances in the treatment of diseases has been via the surgeon. They cut out what’s diseased and hope for the body’s immune system to cope.

    The medical establishment has been finding a cure for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, Parkinson’s, dementia, etc, etc, etc for 50 years with little to nothing to show for it. Face it – the medical establishment is mostly bullshit and public relations while living a good life by having the gov’t protect their cartel.

    I’m not impressed with modern medicine.

    There are two sides to this Covid crisis, medical and political. The political side is the real danger to the future of a civilized society.

    No one, absolutely no one, has the authority to lock people up without a criminal charge that can identify a unique victim and do so without a proper hearing. The concept of prior restraint or pre crime incarceration is what we are seeing now. All the governors and others mandating lockdowns should be tried and hung for abuse of office as no law can take away anyone’s natural rights despite what legislatures do routinely now.

    The proper political response should have been to provide the citizenry the best possible information available and allow them to decide how to proceed. Those that want to become hermits are free to do so. Those that want to wear masks to protect themselves are free to do so. Those that want to take the jab are free to do so. What no one is free to do is to tell those of use not inclined to absorb the propaganda what to do.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @RoatanBill

    https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @RoatanBill


    The medical establishment has been finding a cure for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, Parkinson’s, dementia, etc, etc, etc for 50 years with little to nothing to show for it.
     
    It has escaped your notice that you're going to die of something sooner or later?
  245. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Jack D

    "There was no scientific link"

    That's not what the NHS, CDC and UK government think. But I see the Pandemrix vaccine was EU-only ("In response to the events in Europe, CDC reviewed data from the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) and the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) and found no indication of any association between U.S.-licensed H1N1 or seasonal influenza vaccine and narcolepsy.").

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/19/swine-flu-vaccine-narcolepsy-uk

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/07/why-pandemic-flu-shot-caused-narcolepsy


    In a paper in Science Translational Medicine (STM) this week, researchers offer a possible explanation. They show that the vaccine, called Pandemrix, triggers antibodies that can also bind to a receptor in brain cells that help regulate sleepiness. The work strongly suggests that Pandemrix, which was given to more than 30 million Europeans, triggered an autoimmune re action that led to narcolepsy in some people who are genetically at risk.

     

    Replies: @Jack D

    For all the knocks that the FDA gets (including the knocks about not approving the Covid vaccine as quickly as some countries) you’ll notice that most of these issues (Pandremix, thalidomide, etc.) occur in other countries and not in the US. FDA approval is still the gold standard for stamps of approval.

  246. @RoatanBill
    @Jonathan Mason

    Medicine is an art form that uses some science. Therefore, it may not dictate policy. Without all the machines invented by engineers and real scientists, the average doctor would be just a notch above a shaman.

    The biggest advances in the treatment of diseases has been via the surgeon. They cut out what's diseased and hope for the body's immune system to cope.

    The medical establishment has been finding a cure for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, Parkinson's, dementia, etc, etc, etc for 50 years with little to nothing to show for it. Face it - the medical establishment is mostly bullshit and public relations while living a good life by having the gov't protect their cartel.

    I'm not impressed with modern medicine.

    There are two sides to this Covid crisis, medical and political. The political side is the real danger to the future of a civilized society.

    No one, absolutely no one, has the authority to lock people up without a criminal charge that can identify a unique victim and do so without a proper hearing. The concept of prior restraint or pre crime incarceration is what we are seeing now. All the governors and others mandating lockdowns should be tried and hung for abuse of office as no law can take away anyone's natural rights despite what legislatures do routinely now.

    The proper political response should have been to provide the citizenry the best possible information available and allow them to decide how to proceed. Those that want to become hermits are free to do so. Those that want to wear masks to protect themselves are free to do so. Those that want to take the jab are free to do so. What no one is free to do is to tell those of use not inclined to absorb the propaganda what to do.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @That Would Be Telling

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @Jonathan Mason

    Laws are no longer made by a rational process of public discussion; they are made by a process of blackmail and intimidation, and they are executed in the same manner.
    H.L. Mencken


    If the legislature passed a Droit du seigneur law, would that be OK with you if your daughter was getting married tomorrow?

    Do you actually believe that we are morally obliged to obey all laws?

    The fact that the sociopaths in the political realm invent laws out of nothing but their desire to control the population for their benefit should be obvious to everyone. The fact that the tortured Commerce Clause was used to provide legal cover for what is obviously far beyond reason is telling.

    All government, in its essence, is a conspiracy against the superior man; its one permanent object is to oppress him and cripple him. If it be aristocratic in organization, then it seeks to protect the man who is superior only in law against the man who is superior in fact; if it be democratic, then it seeks to protect the man who is inferior in every way against both. One of its primary functions is to regiment men by force, to make them as much alike as possible and as dependent upon one another as possible, to search out and combat originality among them. All it can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable, and so, if he is romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not romantic personally he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are....
    H. L. Mencken

  247. @Jonathan Mason
    @Clyde


    I was at the dentist on Saturday. I was pleasantly surprised how little Covid fear there was. He took care of me efficiently. Staff was cheerful.
     
    Dentists are massively at risk for Covid-19, because if ever they was a profession that involved getting in your face, then dentistry is it. Also high speed drilling creates aerosols at very close range.

    If your dentist was not taking Covid-19 precautions, then he is a nutcase.

    I was at the dentist last week and had surgery on my gums, and the dentist and his assistant were extremely cheerful, so much so that we all took selfies together after the work was done, but they will still masked, gowned, and gloved down, and hand sanitizer was much in evidence.

    There is a lot of debate as to how useful masks are for the general public, but a thought it came to me today on my which is that it is much harder to put your hands to your mouth or scratch your nose when wearing a mask, so the mask acts as a reminder to sanitize your hands before touching your face, which might well reduce the risk of transmission of a virus from door handles or bus seats or any contaminated surface.

    In populations where 100% of adults are wearing face masks, it is almost impossible not to be aware of infection control risk at all times, and to also pay attention to hand washing and social distancing.

    Replies: @Clyde

    I was at the dentist last week and had surgery on my gums, and the dentist and his assistant were extremely cheerful, so much so that we all took selfies together after the work was done, but they will still masked, gowned, and gloved down, and hand sanitizer was much in evidence.

    I had minor dentistry as in, a crown was cemented into place and one x-ray was taken for a tooth that was very painful four days ago, but has now receded back to non-painful. For these two procedures I wore a mask and so did my dentist. For more serious procedures, drilling, surgery, root canals and gum work, I don’t know how he additionally protects himself. He has air purifiers in each room. He had up a lot of Christmas decorations in the waiting room.
    I told him that if I were a dentist I would take hydroxychloroquine each day. This did not register with him.

  248. @Jonathan Mason
    @RoatanBill

    https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    Laws are no longer made by a rational process of public discussion; they are made by a process of blackmail and intimidation, and they are executed in the same manner.
    H.L. Mencken

    If the legislature passed a Droit du seigneur law, would that be OK with you if your daughter was getting married tomorrow?

    Do you actually believe that we are morally obliged to obey all laws?

    The fact that the sociopaths in the political realm invent laws out of nothing but their desire to control the population for their benefit should be obvious to everyone. The fact that the tortured Commerce Clause was used to provide legal cover for what is obviously far beyond reason is telling.

    All government, in its essence, is a conspiracy against the superior man; its one permanent object is to oppress him and cripple him. If it be aristocratic in organization, then it seeks to protect the man who is superior only in law against the man who is superior in fact; if it be democratic, then it seeks to protect the man who is inferior in every way against both. One of its primary functions is to regiment men by force, to make them as much alike as possible and as dependent upon one another as possible, to search out and combat originality among them. All it can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable, and so, if he is romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not romantic personally he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are….
    H. L. Mencken

  249. @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder
    @Nico

    I think some serious fat shaming is long overdue about now.
     

    I agree, but since teh fatness is now known to be a disease, and nobody's fault when it decides to strike--especially when it decides to strike women of color--there's really nothing to be done about it. Gaah, I love these fries!

    Edit: what the hay...even though everyone's already seen it...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMitjMTi__4

    Sigh... SNL wouldn't dare do a skit like that anymore.

    Replies: @Nico

    Of course you’re right. And while I know I’m preaching to the choir, personally, I couldn’t care less if WOC are dying of COVID, considering how many of them 1/ vote D 2/ [don’t] curb their children and 3/ enable the bad behavior of their Baby Daddies.

    What I do care about is that our taxes are still subventioning them, and that we are all required to throw our lives and our economic futures away to keep the hospitals from getting gummed up with some slobs who couldn’t skip the fries and order a salad from time to time.

  250. @YetAnotherAnon
    @That Would Be Telling

    "cheap socialized medicine countries"

    Or you can have expensive private medicine, but the odds are your generic drug will still come from India (cheap!), and their precursor chemicals will still come from China (really cheap!).

    https://fortune.com/2013/05/15/dirty-medicine/

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ranbaxy-whistleblower-reveals-how-he-exposed-massive-pharmaceutical-fraud/


    Among the drugs prescribed to Americans, 80 percent are generic drugs, and 40 percent of drugs are now made overseas in countries such as China and India where U.S. oversight is weaker.

    Generic drug companies, such as Ranbaxy, have to prove their drugs are "bioequivalent," which means they have the same effect as the brand name. Thakur found Ranbaxy's drugs were being made for Americans with bioequivalence data that didn't exist or was made up all together.

    "The key question here is that, does the drug work as intended?" Thakur said. "And do you have the confidence that the drug works as it is intended to do?"

    Miller said, "But the confidence would largely have to be based on the quality of the data."

    Thakur replied, "Oh absolutely."

    And without that data, Thakur said, "You don't know."

    Thakur reported his findings to the Food and Drug Administration in 2005. Their investigation found Ranbaxy had a "persistent" "pattern" of submitting "untrue statements." On at least 15 new generic drug applications, auditors found more than 1,600 data errors. This meant their drugs were "potentially unsafe and illegal to sell."

    Vince Fabiano, a former vice president of Ranbaxy, said, "In essence, they used the fraud as a competitive advantage to build and grow the business here in the U.S."
     

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    “cheap socialized medicine countries”

    Or you can have expensive private medicine, but the odds are your generic drug will still come from India (cheap!), and their precursor chemicals will still come from China (really cheap!).

    Absolutely true, but much less so for biologics like vaccines. A really silly tu quoque since the socialized medicine countries are even more notorious about being cheap with drugs, and that’s why Trump’s previously discussed here proposals for drug price controls in the US were so insane.

  251. @RoatanBill
    @Jonathan Mason

    Medicine is an art form that uses some science. Therefore, it may not dictate policy. Without all the machines invented by engineers and real scientists, the average doctor would be just a notch above a shaman.

    The biggest advances in the treatment of diseases has been via the surgeon. They cut out what's diseased and hope for the body's immune system to cope.

    The medical establishment has been finding a cure for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, Parkinson's, dementia, etc, etc, etc for 50 years with little to nothing to show for it. Face it - the medical establishment is mostly bullshit and public relations while living a good life by having the gov't protect their cartel.

    I'm not impressed with modern medicine.

    There are two sides to this Covid crisis, medical and political. The political side is the real danger to the future of a civilized society.

    No one, absolutely no one, has the authority to lock people up without a criminal charge that can identify a unique victim and do so without a proper hearing. The concept of prior restraint or pre crime incarceration is what we are seeing now. All the governors and others mandating lockdowns should be tried and hung for abuse of office as no law can take away anyone's natural rights despite what legislatures do routinely now.

    The proper political response should have been to provide the citizenry the best possible information available and allow them to decide how to proceed. Those that want to become hermits are free to do so. Those that want to wear masks to protect themselves are free to do so. Those that want to take the jab are free to do so. What no one is free to do is to tell those of use not inclined to absorb the propaganda what to do.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @That Would Be Telling

    The medical establishment has been finding a cure for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, Parkinson’s, dementia, etc, etc, etc for 50 years with little to nothing to show for it.

    It has escaped your notice that you’re going to die of something sooner or later?

  252. @Jack D
    @Wielgus

    Alternatively, as Steve says in his next comment, blacks are a group with below average IQ and above average self esteem, so if you find yourself in agreement with blacks you might want to reconsider whether you are right. When in US history have blacks been right about anything?

    Replies: @Kronos

    When in US history have blacks been right about anything?

    The innocence of OJ Simpson? 🤔

  253. @RoatanBill
    @That Would Be Telling

    I'm not making any claims. I'm asking your side to show empirical evidence and the entire chain of evidence that leads from virus to deaths.

    The PCR test is so unreliable as to be merely a prop in a psyop. Show where the virus has been identified as THE controlling element in the deaths of people that have it in their systems at time of death and describe the mechanism whereby it operates.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @That Would Be Telling, @vhrm

    Dude, we just most recently went through much of this in a thread two days ago with your (much more polite) fellow traveler Marco de Wit
    You can read some of it e.g. here (it has links to articles and papers) https://www.unz.com/isteve/my-interview/#comment-4325908

    The virus has been isolated and sequenced hundreds of times, the people who have this “flu-like” sickness called COVID-19 are seen to have the virus while also not having flu viruses or bacterial pneumonia.

    There’s just no room to attack the basic scenario that there’s a newish respiratory virus that spread around the world starting in late 2019 and is causing some excess death, especially in the elderly. It’s all very consistent and makes sense and has been independently verified by public and private sectors in several advanced countries, even those who are generally unfriendly to each-other (at least pair-wise) like Russia, EU (France, italy, Germany, Sweden, etc) , UK, US, China, Japan, Korea, Pakistan and India. Even Iran is on board.

    There are some mysteries about details of all the effects of SARS-Cov-2 and where exactly it came from, but overall it behaves similarly to other respiratory viruses like the flu, the various “common cold” viruses and its close cousins SARS and MERS from the past 2 decades. There’s no big mystery or requirement for some super extraordinary level of evidence.

    The “died of” vs “died with” is a decent question. The immediate cause of death is always that your body stopped living. WHY it stopped is always a judgement call. There’s forces that drive both under reporting and over-reporting of COVID as the cause of death. But in the US the numbers are probably within a factor of 2.

    So far only 2/3rds of excess deaths during the pandemic are attributed to COVID-19 deaths:

    “There are several potential reasons for this undercount,” Woolf said in a university news release.

    “Some of it may reflect under-reporting; it takes a while for some of these data to come in. Some cases might involve patients with COVID-19 who died from related complications, such as heart disease, and those complications may have been listed as the cause of death rather than COVID-19,” Woolf explained.

    “But a third possibility, the one we’re quite concerned about, is indirect mortality — deaths caused by the response to the pandemic,” he said. “People who never had the virus may have died from other causes because of the spillover effects of the pandemic, such as delayed medical care, economic hardship or emotional distress.”
    https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-07-01/numbers-of-non-covid-19-deaths-up-during-pandemic

    A CDC study through Sept 2020 showing similar numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm?s_cid=mm6942e2_w

    The cost-benefit analysis on the lockdowns hasn’t really been done… and if you search for info you’ll see that there hasn’t bene much progress or talk about it in the US since March
    (e.g. this Volokh Conspiracy post noting there’s none being done:
    https://reason.com/volokh/2020/03/05/covid-19-and-qalys/ )

    It looks like some calls for cost-benefit thinking paid off in the UK
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2020/11/how-the-cost-benefit-analysis-is-contributing-to-johnsons-climbdown-on-lockdowns-and-tiers.html

    Point being… there’s plenty of room for discussion about how many people it’s really killing (or how many life-years it’s taking) and criticism of the response to the pandemic and whether it’s worth it.

    But the “there’s no virus” and the “the virus is an innocent bystander” paths you’ll get no traction with because they’ve been ruled out convincingly enough.

    • Thanks: Gabe Ruth
  254. Guy on the radio asks the question, why is Covid increasing despite masks and closures, etc., but the flu is almost non-existent this year.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Alice in Wonderland

    Coronavirus is highly infectious?

  255. @Alice in Wonderland
    Guy on the radio asks the question, why is Covid increasing despite masks and closures, etc., but the flu is almost non-existent this year.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Coronavirus is highly infectious?

  256. @Nico
    @Jack D


    There’s no way I would get this vaccine if it didn’t protect me from some dangerous disease like Covid which is running wild thru the community.
     
    COVID-19 is dangerous almost exclusively to people who don't know how to skip the fries and order a damn salad every now and then. Some 90% of hospitalized (not just in critical care) COVID-19 patients are obese, are diabetic or have coronary antecedents. 50% of hospitalized patients meet the criteria for metabolic syndrome (which as a diagnosis isn't much more than the sum of its parts), meaning more than one such condition, which indicates that COVID-19's dangerosity is overwhelmingly a product of a poor lifestyle, not genetics as pig-out apologists like Lindy West like to put out in front. The elderly are disproportionately represented because the windfall of poor lifestyle choices is more likely to show up the more the years pass. Their lower V02max and lower immune vigor does not help, but it does not even come close to explaining the disparities as well as does metabolic mayhem.

    I think some serious fat shaming is long overdue about now.

    Replies: @Mike Pierson, Davenport Rector, Midfielder, @Clyde

    Agree. Very well stated. “Gotta be cruel to be kind” —
    Over the top fatness is obesity and is pretty much a guarantee of diabetes, undiagnosed diabetes, pre-diabetes, future diabetes. You are blowing out your liver/gall bladder and your insulin regulation mechanisms.

    Covid can be serious for the obese and the diabetic and this means millions and millions of Americans. Those with lung problems too.

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