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From a very long article in the news section of the New York Times more or less demanding that the tenure of the distinguished U. of Pennsylvania law professor Amy Wax be stripped for crimespeech:
UPenn Accuses a Law Professor of Racist Statements. Should She Be Fired?
Amy Wax and free speech groups say the university is trampling on her academic freedom. Students ask whether her speech deserves to be protected.
By Vimal Patel
March 13, 2023Amy Wax, a law professor, has said publicly that “on average, Blacks have lower cognitive ability than whites,”…
That’s the lead item in the NYT’s indictment of Professor Wax: her statement of a fact upon which The Science is settled.
That’s the single scientific fact the New York Times staff chose as the most horrible thing she ever said to open their indictment of Professor Wax and demand she be dispossessed of her tenure. Granted, you know and I know that what she said is about as indisputable of a fact as exists in the American social sciences. But reading through the comments, it appears that few New York Times readers are aware of this massively important truth that drives so much of what we read in the headlines and see with our own lying eyes.
Way back in his controlling decision in the 1978 Bakke case, Justice Lewis Powell declared that we should have affirmative action so that colleges can have better classroom discussions. Of course, affirmative action made classroom (and post-college, as well) discussions vastly worse by ruling out of discussion the single biggest social facts, such as that blacks average lower IQ and higher homicide rates.
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Post the full article dude. It’s paywalled
Would Vimal Patel react differently if Amy Wax stated that Indians have, on average, higher cognitive than blacks”?
What about, “Indians on average have higher cognitive ability than whites?”
The Patels aren’t a family, they’re an entire ethnic group. They make the Seoul and Saigon phone books look diverse.
Vimal Patel = Lava limpet.
There are, no surprise, a bunch of Vimal Patels in the land. This is this one:
https://www.chronicle.com/author/vimal-patel
Do those objecting to her comment have lower cognitive ability than blacks?
Amy Wax will be called a racist by white liberals like Eric Bryan Stone, who says all white people are racist demons who need to be removed from the face of the Earth….and need to integrate with blacks.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CpLd88uAyXD/?hl=en
Yeah, but that’s the whole point: you’re not supposed to say it, because it’s so obviously true.
If they illegally fire her, she may have to sue in Philadelphia.
I would advise her to move to Covington, KY and sue them for libel using Nick Sandmann’s attorney. Or Florida and Hulk Hogan’s.
On the bright side, I have the vague impression Amy Wax is an Israel supporter.
Man! I don’t know how many comments it would take to convince someone of this simple other statement of fact: They, these university students, probably Miss Motel-Patel, and the entire Establishment run by the Communists now, DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR INDISPUTABLE FACTS! – – SHE! CAN’T! SAY! THAT! Geeze, I hope putting this in bold helps..
They run things now, man! You just wrote an article about Wales and the statues being taken down. Whadda’, whaddya’? Is that all you got? A group of dozens or a hundred tried to prevent one instance of this in Charlottesville, Virginia 5 1/2 years ago. The Anarcho-Tyranny of the Establishment squashed them to teach everyone a lesson about daring to try to stop all this.
We’re almost at the stage of the Russians in 1917, the Chinese in 1947, the Vietnamese in the 1970s, and so on. I wouldn’t have seen this even 20 years back, but there’s no doubt who we’re up against. I didn’t want it to be this way. However, it sure looks like they won’t back down until they are being pushed dead into ditches.
I still don’t think it has to go that way, though, but arguing with these people doesn’t do squat. The most peaceful way I can think of is you stay away from and don’t support ALL their institutions – that includes governments, universities, lower schools, the media, all of it. They are the unproductive Resentidos. We don’t need a thing from them.
It’s nice that they ask this, but these law students need to start at square one: Free speech is non-negotiable.
Obviously UPenn could totally demolish Wax’s statements if was willing to release data by race and no other identifying information on the GPAs and LSAT scores of each incoming class of law students (go back as far as you like) as well as graduating GPAs by race alone.
Even if this still showed whites do better but not a lot better it would push back on what she’s saying. That they don’t is an indicator that the difference must be embarrassingly large.
Not even close. Ranges of IQ for India run from the mid 70’s to the mid 80’s.
India has a billion people. So they do have a large number of high IQ people. But they have a whole lot bigger group of low IQ people.
This site has India ranked lower than Haiti and Sudan.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-iq-by-country
I thought that on the whole the article fairly presented both the pro- and anti-Wax positions, although the pro-Wax positions were mostly along the lines of “her opinions are foul but academic freedom commands that we allow foul opinions too so you cannot sanction a tenured professor for having foul opinions.” Although increasingly, even this is a stretch on the Left.
That she might actually be right and that her opinions are more factual than foul was not given much consideration by either side.
It most certainly is…and the difference between male and female students is not insignificant either..
https://archive.ph/6EB56
or that Brahmins have, on average, higher IQ scores than Dalits…
> Obviously UPenn could totally demolish Wax’s statements if was willing to release data by race
Your comment raises a question: Among the faculty, students, and administrators of UPenn and the NYT subscriber base, who is most committed to remaining ignorant of groups’ differing abilities and performances? Who is most opposed to figuring out good policies (which necessarily requires defining ‘good’)?
Looks like a four-way tie.
“Post the full article dude. It’s paywalled ”
https://archive.is/KNO2p
Did she say precisely that? My memory is that she said black students tended to cluster in the bottom quarter of the class in terms of performance. (Don’t law schools have blindly graded exams?).
affirmative action made classroom (and post-college, as well) discussions vastly worse by ruling out of discussion the single biggest social facts
Are those actually the ‘single biggest’ social facts?
They don’t. If they did it’d be proof that average intelligence is not very important when it comes to building a country anyone would want to live in. Just like it is in China. There are multiple factors and thresholds. Rigidly tiered societies will be able to breed a small minority with very high intelligence. The price for this is high.
Whatever. As far as I’m concerned the really tragic part is that everyone’s now referring to Penn as “UPenn” —which would really make my skin crawl, if I even liked that school in the first place. Sorry, you were saying?
See a few comments down. I posted it for you at top level
She’s a national treasure.
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I don’t shrink from the word, ‘superior,’” she said, adding, “Everyone wants to come to the countries that exemplify” these values. “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans.”
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“I would bet there is a genetic component to group differences in cognitive ability.”
—
We can speculate (and, yes, generalize) about Asians’ desire to please the elite, single-minded focus on self-advancement, conformity and obsequiousness, lack of deep post-Enlightenment conviction, timidity toward centralized authority (however unreasoned), indifference to liberty, lack of thoughtful and audacious individualism, and excessive tolerance for bossy, mindless social engineering.
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Jared Taylor is someone I know. I socialize with him, I talk with him…
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Well, I mean, I’m on the record saying that the feminization of the academy has been a total disaster, okay? Because what it has meant is that the values of the nursery and the kindergarten have now been elevated to the paramount considerations and the old traditional and traditionally masculine values of truth-seeking, of argumentation, of reason, evidence, and objectivity have been downgraded.
—
But also, the fact is, Asian culture is very different from our culture. It just is. It’s not a post-Enlightenment culture, it’s not a Western culture, it is not a sort of liberty-focused culture. It is a conformist culture. These are broad generalizations, I understand that, and there are, of course, exceptions in every population. But critical masses of people from certain backgrounds do change the culture. It’s interesting. I don’t know if you follow a website called Education Realist?
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But there are a lot of people who like to be around people like themselves, who don’t want to see their country turn into a polyglot boarding house. Those people deserve to be heard.
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Low corruption is almost exclusively a Northern European and Anglo phenomenon, okay? It virtually doesn’t exist in any other part of the globe. I mean, a little bit in central Europe, it’s kind of Teutonic as well as Nordic and Anglo.
I believe the proper way to refer to those are the Wax On and Wax Off positions.
I’ll be here all week.
The headline should have read: “The Worst Thing Law Professor Amy Wax Ever Said Is: ‘On Average, Blacks Have Lower Cognitive Ability Than Whites[ALL NONBLACKS]’”
Yeah, she’s both forthright and obviously an amazingly intelligent, competent and on the ball lady.
Sad, she did not have kids. It’s another demonstration of this problem. Even when the smart gals in the academy are on your side, this whole process of female careerism is genetically destructive.
~~
The one statement here–still logically correct, because she’s got the “almost” out–is the last one.
Japan is also–at least as I understand it–a very low corruption country. They got there via a completely different route than the Western Christian high affective empathy “we’re all brothers” route. It is something more like “this is how a Japanese person behaves” and violating that would be very bad. But I don’t claim to understand it. (Not Japanese and only spent very limited time there.)
And interesting dynamic to figure out. Cause otherwise low-corruption is pretty much NW Euro Christian, correlating highly with “Germanic language family” speakers.
Miss Patel would be fine with that–mentally. But would appropriately act aghast at the badthink.
Miss Patel would know that Amy Wax is deeply confused about India.
Unfortunately, our society in general is geared toward *not* knowing that there are very real differences in ability and behaviors that correspond to particular racial or ethnic backgrounds. Our social welfare system, educational system, etc. are run as though there is nothing fundamentally different between our largest groups, with predictably poor results and the fact that we never catch the tail we are chasing is simply a signal to our betters that we must chase harder, not that the tail can never be caught.
We really are screwed no matter what – obviously the preference of the overclass is we continue to delude ourselves, but even if there was some kind of national awakening to the realities of biology what then? The losers in that scenario are not going to gracefully decide they are content being a permanent underclass, and our political system is such that they can elect politicians who promise to take from others and give to them.
More at “because it contradicts their narrative.”
Indeed, there’s nothing wrong with being polite. However, politeness is essentially a personal thing is supposed to end with policy. A politican–or academic, or lawyer, or businessman–should not go around publicly saying “blacks are on average not as intelligence as whites” for no good reason.
However, when people propose policies that assume/pretend this is not the case, then it’s the duty of those people to speak up, tell the truth and fight bad policy.
That’s the crux of it. We have people–minoritarians–who have deliberately lied about this for decades because blacks are their cudgel to beat us with–to delegitimize America, our history, our culture, our people in order to destroy the nation and remake it as they want.
That’s why her comments are generate “outrage”.
Professor Amy Wax has strong opinions on Asians & Indians.
Not a fan, I guess.
Wax is a brilliant person. Not only a professor and a lawyer, but an M.D. as well-a neurologist, no less.
She’s pretty much 100% right talking about this subject. We need more like her. On average, the women that speak up about this these days are far ballsier, for lack of a better term, than their male counterparts.
The peak of the Indian IQ distribution is 80, but they have a billion people so there are a million Indians with an IQ over 132 and most of them have immigrated to the US. Which is to say that the Indian gene pool isn’t that superior. Combine their high intelligence elite with a tendency to lie, cheat, and steal and you understand why so many of them work for the Biden Administration and go into law and finance.
Someone here (I forget who) commented that for years there was a de facto truce between left and right on this issue.
The right agreed not to raise the issue of black intelligence and the left agreed not to push for equality of outcomes, i.e. to maintain the fig leaf of meritocracy.
The left has broken this arrangement. It no longer even pretends to care about meritocracy and just wants blacks hired/promoted for being black.
Sad, she did not have kids.
Amy Wax is a highly unusual person in that she is willing to speak unpopular truths and accept the ensuing opprobrium. There is no reason to assume that if she had children they would share her views. I’ve heard conservatives claim that since we have more children than progressives, our worldview will eventually win. Unfortunately, it doesn’t necessarily work that way. The other side controls education and the culture.
Arclight, the “losers” to whom you refer are the social parasites populating the black upper middle class–they are far from the underclass.
This. Law school graduates and the majority of practicing lawyers despise the Bill of Rights. They’re not ignorant, they hate it. This is the legal exhibit in the hell fair of fake expertise; it’s as bad as the tunnel of killer doctors, or the tent of businessmen who think that “business” is when the government gives you money.
There are recordings of Jordan Peterson talking about the this very subject. I’ve heard it. When are those going to surface? Whenever he stops being useful, I guess.
I think she does have a son.
She’s not wrong.
OT: And you white cisgender males think you have problems.
The great oscar Whiteout
Paul Sorvino: White
Leslie Jordan: White
Anne Heche: White
Tony Sirico: White
Tom Sizemore: White
Charlbi Dean Kriek: White
It’s not the first time (Dorothy McGuire, et al.), but it was never so bad before. Meanwhile, movie nullities (Aliya) are celebrated, simply because they were (part) black.
And this is what the White Genocide Project has in store for the entire White race.
I stopped watching the oscar telecast years ago.
What I don’t understand is why Penn would not reply to Amy: “Amy, you are stating a ‘duh’; everyone knows that Blacks score lower on average. But every well-informed intelligence expert also knows that the genetic hypothesis has been totally refuted, and is nonsense. Given the broad, deep, and indisputable social factors that hold back learning, it would be astonishing if Blacks did NOT score lower when testing time arrives. Work on finally fixing those social factors.”
I don’t imagine that it gave Amy Wax any pleasure to state what she stated. If there is any such thing as “systemic racism” (there isn’t), I don’t imagine that professor Wax is the worst or even a significant proponent of it. But she spoke up, so she must be erased.
I mean, after all, of what use is she anyway? She’s only a distinguished legal scholar who is also a physician and who is not hostile to white Americans. People like her are a dime a dozen, surely?
OT, but: Kentucky woman with over 230 great-great-grandchildren meets great-great-great-grandchild
Even more astonishing, she’s white!!!
[thin resume–agree not to include]
As I was reading this well written article, I wondered if Dr Wax realizes that as a woman and as a Jew, she too has benefited from the removal of policies that limited access to education for women and Jews. Does anyone ask her how she justifies her own position if women should be in the house, married and raising babies?
I think many would argue that the sentence: “currently on average Black in the USA show lower scores that whites on IQ scores” is indisputable. But the sentence “on average Black in the USA have lower cognitive ability” is not.
Some beg to differ…
Arclight wrote:
No, it is not “embarrassingly large”: the whole point of the exercise is to get people to say things that they know for certain to be false.
This is not a bug; this is a feature.
Havel wrote about this in his famous essay about the greengrocer: the whole point is to force people to publicly abase and humiliate themselves and show their submission to the ruling elite.
It is like going through Hell week to join a fraternity.
But worse.
And unending.
As Orwell put it:
Wrong question. Right question is, “will Vimal Patel ever hire a black lawyer?”
“Indian” isn’t a meaningful grouping. At least if you use Steve’s definition that a race “is a particular type of extended family, one that’s more coherent over time than the norm,” than India is arguably home to a number of races, that cluster around caste. Some groups are more intelligent than average, most are not.
I am going to guess that professor Wax is fairly Asperger. Most women who favor truth over social conformity are, and it is not surprising they have a hard time finding a mate. She may even lack any kind of deep nurturing drive. This is the problem with our genes, there are always trade offs.
The Mikado is right: Japan has always had certain structures and practices which are simple corruption in principle by Western standards, mainly in oversight and gifts. Against these though they have ethnic and cultural unity plus a very high sense of accountability and a personal sense of morality. The result matters. What you see in Africa and the Spanish-speaking world is corruption but the result does not matter.
For example, there is a practice where they don’t like to air dirty laundry (a corruption in principle by Western standards), but the result matters, so instead of not discussing problems and hoping the problems go away like in most of the world, your auto technician will sneak extra work into a routine checkup without the formality of a recall. Jack Seward has an example from when he was sitting on the board of a Japanese company: the very Japanese annual company vacation was discussed and unanimously planned for Scenic Hot Springs Resort X. Then the company’s leader mentioned getting off the phone with an important supplier, whose family just happened to own Scenic Hot Springs Resort Y. The vote was unanimously changed, except for Jack, who was furious. But the point of the story is that Y wasn’t a cheap fobbing off, it delivered a perfectly good service. Andrew Horvath has a story about getting a call from a executive about to make a major deal with an American company. What gifts should he give his American counterpart? The Japanese executive had in mind a car, plus a nice high end cosmetic set for the wife, and a good stereo for the man’s son. Horvath explained that the Japanese should show up with a bottle of wine (not the absolute best for fear of showing up the host), and that the other gifts should be nothing because this would be illegal. The executive was shocked amd hung up.
The permissible discussion is now a metadiscussion; it’s no longer about what’s true, it’s about what you may or may not say.
You seem not to realize that she used to make up a lot of things about “Asians” and post them here, ran into data-based objections (“mismatch” being a significant one), and then scurried back to her own site. She also had an annoying habit of claiming she came up with ideas Steve Sailer put forth and would complain that he never gave her credit.
Now do Jews.
Pity that Wax doesn’t demand to know what in the “hearts” of these Jews.
Jared Taylor? You mean that “Asian supremacist”? I’d be very interested in Taylor and Wax discussing Asians.
We, in the United States, have this law called Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Basically, it’s against the law for an American company to bribe foreign officials to obtain contracts. It arose in response to the Lockheed bribery scandals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals
We tried to get the Europeans to enact a similar law and they fought us tooth and nail. Why? Because it’s routine in Europe. The German federal government used to let German companies deduct from taxes bribes its companies paid overseas to obtain contracts.
Yes it is. What is it with boomers around here always nit-picking and denying obvious facts? The same fallacies that liberals used to use deny group differences are deployed to muddy the waters by a small group of annoying boomers who make these of dumb, nit-picking comments on every thread, over and over. If you think a category like “Indians” is not adequate, you are not interested in a serious discussion of the issues at hand.
Japan actually has a fairly high amount of institutionalized corruption for its economic development level. The Asian country that tops the Corruption Perception Index for low corruption is Singapore: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022
But, then again, we, the United States, also have a lot of what some foreigners would call institutional corruption – https://www.opensecrets.org/.
I don’t think so. The Japanese are quiet and polite, not because they want to fit some notion of “Japanese-ness,” but because they have been ingrained since childhood with the idea that it’s shameful and undignified to be impolite or disturb others.
Anglophone societies used to have the same notion, that has been destroyed. Who uses “ungentlemanly” or “unlady-like” non-ironically these days?
For that matter, while the Western development of detaching from family and clan and relating to each other as individuals was a Christian (specifically Catholic) phenomenon, it was not because the Christian exhortation to treat one another like “brothers” was followed. This happened, because the Church curbed the importance and salience of the powerful families and clans by forbidding consanguine (“cousin”) marriages and encouraging alternative power centers (monasteries, universities, guilds, etc.) that detracted from the power of the state, with which it was competitive*: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_World
Europeans weren’t like that before the rise of the Catholic Church. The Romans, whom Western Europeans and Americans hold up as civilizational exemplars and ancestors, for example, were extremely clannish (very lineage-oriented) and corrupt – so much so that they took to enlisting huge numbers of foreign mercenaries and allies (foederati) to smite their domestic rivals and, in the process, destroyed their own civilization. Indeed, the pre-Christian Romans were quite similar to the Chinese in that the emperor was also the chief priest of a state-controlled religion.
*By the way, East Asia also had these alternate power centers (such as Buddhist monasteries), but the state crushed them via extreme violence and never allowed it to take hold again. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishiyama_Hongan-ji_War
But then, this weakening of the domestic religions resulted in East Asians being extremely receptive to foreign (Western) religions. You likely know about Christianity in South Korea. Catholicism also spread like wildfire in Japan when the Portuguese introduced it, but the accident of history led to a highly anti-Christian warlord winning the civil war, so it, too, was crushed:
Yup. Indians might have castes that are highly endogamous, but they sure are far more highly related to each other genetically than to non-South Asians.
It’s one thing to argue that Indians genetically have more structure than, say, the Chinese (which is true), but to claim that Indians can’t be grouped together and discussed as an ethno-racial group is pure sophistry.
Move to Britain where the Left are up in arms about the need to defend free speech
Thank You Calvin.
Nor did Newton, Beethoven, Maxwell, Michelangelo, Lenin, Kant, Thomas Young, Nietzsche, Degas, Van Gogh, Goedel, Rock Hudson, ….
All countries with some kind of civilization are corrupt. Just, their corruption profiles differ due to historical physiognomy of respective societies.
Unusual article addressing disproportionate violent crime rates: https://theconversation.com/biggest-racial-gap-in-prison-is-among-violent-offenders-focusing-on-intervention-instead-of-incarceration-could-change-the-numbers-194618
” In time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act”.
George Orwell.
I’d trust my wallet around Japanese people before I would your Med cousins, Bardon. Same goes for drinking the local tap water, teen-aged daughters, etc.
If you think a category like “Indians” is not adequate, you are not interested in a serious discussion of the issues at hand.
That’s moronic. One reason “Boomers” have so little patience for Millenials is that young people seem particularly obtuse and unable to deal with any kind of intellectual challenge. It’s all black and white for the low attention span generation.
One of Sailer’s key insights is that race is family writ large. It is also a historical fact, and rather interesting, that India was overrun by outside groups of conquerors, most of whom remained fairly endogamous. If you don’t understand the significant racial differences inside India you won’t understand how “Indians” are increasingly dominant in business and medicine in the US. You will probably revert to silly explanations like “of course a country of a billion people will find a few geniuses”, ignoring that other large countries like Indonesia or Nigeria seem unable to find anywhere close to the same number of success stories, even in relative numbers.
Probably not true that Indians in general have higher IQs than whites. But it might be true that high-caste Indians have higher IQs than whites in general.
…She’s not advocating keeping blacks out of law school , she’s just stating the facts ,as a law school professor she would be in a position to know , you are a perfect example of what she is talking about i.e. inability to think.
And of course these rare, highly intelligent women, are immediately thrown under the bus by feminists, for speaking truths against the narrative, instead of being celebrated as exemplars of womanhood.
Naomi Wolf, and Chamille Pagllia being two examples.
Speaking of that, have you watched Cobra Kai? As my teenaged daughter pointed out, it’s a soap opera for middle school girls and middle-aged men.
“She did not have kids”.
Nor did Newton, Beethoven, Maxwell, Michelangelo, Lenin, Kant, Thomas Young, Nietzsche, Degas, Van Gogh, Goedel, Rock Hudson, ….
These are all men!
Women are put on this earth to breed.
Men to accomplish great things!
If anyone’s interested you can easily get around the N Y Times paywall. Save the page you want to read as an .htm file on your computer. Open it in WordPad or any other text editor; replace “script” with anything else, and save it. Open the saved file in your browser and you’ll have the full article to read. The first several screens of gibberish are the trackers and ads and other junk that you’ve disabled.
India – 1.4 billion.
How do you know this commenter is a millennial and not a gen X? Xer’s know boomers well, as they are our parents!
Indians “the dot type,” are succeeding in western built systems. Not as a result of their own.
The cream of the crop attend western universities, where they either succeed professionally in the west post ed, or return home and take western knowledge back with them. Same as the Asians.
Neither culture built any civilization on par with the west, on their own. And the current status of eastern, first world civilizations is built on the backs of western knowledge and tech.
The Indians don’t send their smart kids to Chinese universities, and vice versa. They send them to the west. And few as a percentage return to their home countries to pursue their respective professional careers.
All third world civilizations have done nothing but benefit from western colonialism. All! As soon as the colonists build and exit, they can’t even maintain what was built for them. South Africa being a prime example.
India for all intents and purposes is a third world shit hole, with some western tech infrastructure and conveniences. For the few who can afford them.
The Chinese and Japanese took the western ball and ran with it, and did very well for themselves. Pre Industrial Revolution they were stagnant cultures.
Not just obtuse. Whining hysterical ignorant obscurantists.
With dot Indians it’s both race & culture. Race is high IQ Brahmins & similar stuff; culture is a great intellectual Indian tradition that produced a bunch of creative & intellectualized people over millennia in sciences, philosophy, psychology etc. Nothing even remotely close with Indonesians and Nigerians.
No equvalents to Chandrasekhar or Raman.
A show aimed at dads and their daughters sounds like it could be a good thing.
George Eliot, Marguerite Yourcenar, Simone de Beauvoir, Emmy Noether, Rosalind Franklin, Kathryn Bigelow..all childless women.
But, like, what are you talking about, dude?
“We wish to be clear: Stanford wholeheartedly rejects antisemitism, racism, hatred, and associated symbols, which are reprehensible and will not be tolerated,” Brubaker-Cole said.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/swastikas-image-of-hitler-drawn-on-jewish-students-door-at-stanford/ar-AA18AhoB
You’re free to lead a type of life whichever you choose.
Nice one. I miss the days when you just had to be quick enough to stop the page loading before the pay wall script started. Most sites seem to have caught on to this trick by now.
> [In an alternate world, the Penn nomenklatura would have responded]: “Amy, you are stating a ‘duh’; everyone knows that Blacks score lower on average…”
A while back, Paul Graham discussed this in his essay “What You Can’t Say.” One doesn’t get defenestrated for claiming “The sky is green” — no taboo has been violated.
A Patel trying to take out a Wax. Get used to it.
I’ve been saying for years that Indians are the new Jews. Pound for pound, Jews beat them, but Indians are hungrier.
Jews had no competition for a very long time, but that age is ending. There will be no “My fellow Indians” with these folks.
Not in a multiracial society.
CivNats believing that you can change the population makeup and retain the principles of the Founding Fathers is just as crazy as the people attacking Wax.
Institutions are downstream from culture which is downstream from biology. Change the people and you will get a different culture that leads to different principles.
Too much is made of the IQ issue. How high an IQ do you need to mow a lawn, or clean an office building? You actually don’t want high IQ people in those positions as they will be bored.
The problem is that liberals have created a sense of entitlement in may blacks, such that they see low IQ jobs as somehow beneath them.
If Shaniqua could learn to keep her legs together, and more blacks were willing to accept their place in society, the IQ issue wouldn’t matter.
Sobran nailed the issue a quarter century ago.
Why They Hate Us
by Joseph Sobran
Western man towers over the rest of the world in ways so
large as to be almost inexpressible. It’s Western
exploration, science, and conquest that have revealed the
world to itself. Other races feel like subjects of Western
power long after colonialism, imperialism, and slavery have
disappeared. The charge of racism puzzles whites who feel
not hostility, but only baffled good will, because they
don’t grasp what it really means: humiliation. The white
man presents an image of superiority even when he isn’t
conscious of it. And superiority excites envy. Destroying
white civilization is the inmost desire of the league of
designated victims we call ‘minorities.’
From Sobran’s Newsletter, April 1997
This is not a good way to think about India in HBD terms like IQ. It simply is not a normal country. It’s essentially Jack D’s fantasy idea of a normal country. Lots of different peoples jammed together in the same place.
In Europe there really was one big breeding population in any area–the normal (Christian) people of the various communities/regions/nations–and then two much smaller tribal endogamous groups, the Jews and Gypsies.
But in India, there really were something like 40,000 separately breeding tribes. People who really are not–and are religiously never supposed to be–kin back through thousands of years are plopped down right next to each other, with specific rules about hierarchy and appropriate interaction.
India is a very unique outlier to pretty much everywhere else on the planet where people were generally related to the people around them–closely or not based on the usual issues of social class and mobility.
And of course … it’s a low-trust disaster, for all the reasons that make one-peoplish nations far superior.
But some of those Indian micro-races–mostly various Brahmin ones–have been literate a long time and made a living doing literate (clerical, record keeping, bureaucratic) work and are pretty smart. Followed by various business communities also on the ball. And at the other end of the spectrum ancient tribal people from the bush who are quite dumb. So, it is best to think of India not as one bell curve–like pre-immivasion Sweden–but more like thousands of separate bell curves of its composite peoples.
I’m not a millennial. “Bardon Kaldion” is another boomer fool who can’t tell the truth.
“Indian” is fine for US census categories. (There ought to be some sort of separate “sub-con” category.) And fine for offhand casual observations “lot of Indians in tech”.
But not in HBD terms. Your “more structure” than the Chinese is a joke. Racially there is no such thing “Indian” in the sense that there is a “German” or “Korean” or “Han Chinese”. There are thousands of micro-races that have not bred together for a couple thousand years. Are Jews and whites one people? (American Jews certainly haven’t acted like that.)
The Anon’s “got a billion people with an average IQ of 80 and I’ll apply a bell curve …” is close to useless in figuring out what’s up. Works fine for Koreans, Germans, Irish. Doesn’t work for Indians.
People who do not understand that, won’t understand the disconnect between how Indians are doing/behaving in the US and what’s going on in India and why it does not–will not–just “take off” like China. Which are pretty important things to understand if you want to understand our world.
Low-hanging fruit = irrefutable truths about blacks.
The truth continues to break its OWN record on the *hurt* scale.
Conclusion: we need more. Much, much more, por favor.
That’s a rather large sample size!
India is a strange, strange country, composed of 6 or 7 diverse races and ethnic groups. The average IQ of one or perhaps two of these ethnicities is higher than that of Europeans, but the average IQ of all Indians is 76 on the site you reference and as high as 82 according to other estimates.
The average IQs for many of the countries on this site are dubious and inexplicable. How can Haiti have an average IQ of 82 when the average IQs of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa range from the mid-60s to the mid-70s? How can Haiti, which is over 95% black and less than 5% white, have virtually the same average IQ as Cuba, which is 72% European, 20% African, and 8% indigenous, and the Dominican Republic, which is 73.9% “mixed” (nearly all Mulatto), 17.8% white, and 7.8% black?
“but arguing with these people doesn’t do squat.”
The Negro Delusion Bubble is vast, deep, impenetrable.
Among women Nobel Prize winners in the sciences, Marie Curie and her daughter Irene each had 2 children, while the remaining 21 winners had a total of 23 children. A couple of these winners had as many as 3 children.
> Unusual article addressing disproportionate violent crime rates
Thanks for the link to “The Conversation’s” piece on blacks’ high relative incarceration rate and what to do about it. Half that sandwich’s filling is baloney and the other half is iSteve-approved, so it’s something of a strange read. A bit like True Communist Gorbachev hesitantly acknowledging some of his system’s failures, in order to fix it.
Is that The Incredible Mr. Limpet?
Don’t forget to tip your waiter…
“How high an IQ do you need to mow a lawn, or clean an office building?”
I don’t know. But the fact of the matter is that blacks would be competing against smarter or more reliable groups (recent immigrants, lower middle class whites, non-black high school students, mentally disabled non-blacks) for these jobs. On a level playing field, they can’t compete.
Another question that should be asked is “should Vimal Patel be deported”?
I vote yes.
The left does what it always does: establishes a truce when conditions are favorable, and breaks it once the power to ignore it favors them.
And the centrist-right folks go on Twitter and scream hypocrisy to really show them how unfair it is.
True. I think the original poster might have confused intelligence with wealth. Darbyshire had a post a little while ago that showed Indian per capita wealth in the US to be higher than any other group. (Yes, including Jews.) No doubt a couple tech CEOs skew that, but still, it makes one wonder…
Elites of any nations who can plausibly claim nonwhite status are the greatest beneficiaries of DIE policy. The shrillest voices against white supremacy seem to be Asian women of color (East or South) who are actually quite privileged in the non-intersectional rankings as well as the intersectional ones.
J. S. Bach did both.
Free speech died with the millennials. Now Gen Z’ers practically curl up in the fetal position sobbing at the thought of it.
Funny too that Stanford law students and most faculty and administrators proudly assert that a heckler’s veto is free speech, but an actual uninterrupted speech is not. Hecklers shutting down a speech is by definition shouting fire in a crowded theater, to use the one stupid and irrelevant metaphor that they love.
fake accent
My 19-year-old won’t watch it with me. In fact, she was so embarrassed she told me, “Don’t ever speak to me of this again.”
It’s a rare and pleasant surprise when a woman uses her female privilege for good and not for evil.
God doesn’t give with both hands
Could be. Perhaps it’s something sexual….
Intergenerational sniping goes back a ways. When Plato was an old man, he complained about the disrespectful youth and their “wild Lydian melodies” (that’s not music! it’s noise!!).
The eternal folly of the young is to imagine they are the first modern people ever. The eternal folly of the old is to forget they were exactly the same way.
In any case, boomer-bashing harms white unity. Same with millennial-mocking. Our life experiences change, but we are one people and need to be always on our side.
I have long since ceased to take The Gray Hag seriously anymore so, no comment necessary other than to observe in passing that the Woke Phenomenon seems to be driven by –and largely composed– of pseudo-educated women who are evidently aided and abetted by – for lack of a better word – eunuchs.
Hey….one of the less stupid “Ebony’s” is on shift today! All in all a fairly well written post. You be shoodn postin mo on dis dere website eb!
Amy Wax will be called a racist by white liberals like Eric Bryan Stone, who says all white people are racist demons who need to be removed from the face of the Earth….and need to integrate with blacks.
…..a call to entropy!
Some Stanford students disagree. Sorry for the awful website:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11856181/Stanford-refuses-fire-woke-inclusivity-dean-ambushed-judge-law-school-event.html
What about, “Indians IN AMERICA on average have higher cognitive ability than whites?”
Put aside what the others are saying about Indians not being one race but a bunch of different peoples all jammed into one country. AFAIK the DNA studies don’t show marked genetic differences between the castes. The castes were all formed from pretty much the same base population (in any given region). The Brahmins of the south look more like South Indians and not like northern Brahmins. It’s like the American Carnegies and Rockefellers were formed from the same breeding stock as the coal miners of W. Va, originally even if at some point they stopped breeding with each other.
However, what we have in the US is very selective migration from India. It’s a brain drain. Some migrations involve the poorest, most landless peasants (e.g. the migration of Italians or the Irish to America) but sometimes it’s a brain drain of people with skills who think that they can do even better in another country.
Any suggestions for simple social facts which are more influential on our society right now?
I would like to see more discussion on the problem of doing “less with more in America”. Considering how the tools for most technical activities have improved in the past 50 years, I am surprised how many people are needed to accomplish complex engineering tasks in modern America.
I think this degradation over time is a result of loss of meritocracy, decreased education standards, AA and EEO hiring, laziness, poor communication (education and immigrants), more psychiatric drug use (street and prescription), lack of respect for hierarchy and maybe decreased IQ. Not to mention bureaucracy. These factors make people less competent and less suited to working effectively in teams. The result is that more less competent people work in larger, less effective teams to do engineering tasks.
Nonetheless as the tools keep improving (computers and automation), society seems to barely keep up.
One example: Imagine how much effort was required to develop and build a new jet airliner in the 1950’s compared to the same task today? Pen, paper and slide rules versus CAD.
Maybe my observation is incorrect and there is tons of great stuff going on in software, semiconductors and biotech. But I doubt it.
Keep at it, Mr. Sailer! In XX years, who knows? you might see the whole edifice of denial topple over. I was going to suggest to the NYT and its reporter that all they need to do to refute the criminal observation of Professor Wax would be to show that blacks score just as high on intelligence tests as anyone else. But then, of course, I’d have to hear how the tests are biased. Etc. Etc. Etc.
In other words, the NYT is expecting that the mob will prevail. (I take it that this is the “our democracy” they keep spouting off about–the mob takes a vote and its voice is heard.)
What matters not one bit is academic freedom, free speech, or intellectual curiosity, probity and integrity in matters of public concern or debate, but how people/students/faculty/administrators feel.
As I repeatedly say, they love, love, love diversity–but they demand conformity.
Consider the power of “and.”
You’re not supposed to say it because it’s so obviously true and it contradicts their narrative.
Take away either part of that and the response can change dramatically. Relatively easy to refute falsehoods, and facts which don’t contradict their narrative are less important.
As you said, this is the crux.
How about responding to every article of this sort with this link?
https://babylonbee.com/news/boy-who-pointed-out-the-emperor-has-no-clothes-banned-for-misinformation
Yes, one we discuss often here at iSteve, and that is the deleterious civilizational impact of Negroes on non-Negro communities worldwide, especially in the United States.
Thanks. It had been a while since I read that essay and it was good to remind myself how much wisdom it contains.
There is also a shorter followup “Re: What You Can’t Say” which adds to it.
Are there many gentile women professors who do realtalk? Has Wax got away with it so far because she is Jewish?
In fact, Indian castes are highly endogamous – this is rigourously enforced by no less a force than religious sanction, after money the strongest human motivation possible – to a degree and severity which westerners can not believe. This has been true for many many centuries.
As a result of this genetic partitioning and founder effects taken to the extreme, it is safe to say that caste differences are really racial differences. Add to the fact that India, a vast land always having a vast population, separated by mountain ranges, deserts, jungles etc, there was already considerable genetic difference before the imposition of caste.
Also, of course, you have the effect of multiple invasions into India, and the conversion of a sizeable portion of the population to Islam, which effectively is another genetic partition. Then you have the influx of Arab, Turkic, Mongol etc blood into the Muslim population, not forgetting the mongoloid blood in Nepal, Assam etc etc.
India is a very complex racial and genetic case study in itself, former British colonialists and ethnographers expended a great deal of effort in trying to categorize the Indians.
The differences between the Bengali and the Pathan, for example, (both races hate each other as seen in the Bangladesh war of 1971), are immense, intellectually, morally, physically and genetically.
“… People with skills…”.
Perhaps – but, for certain, only coming because *somebody else* actually did all the scut work of actually *building* a developed nation out of basically nothing.
We need a better strategy than that. In a straightforward fight, it will be us who are pushed dead into ditches, or sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. Think Charlottesville, 1/6 and so on. They decide who is the hero, who is the criminal, and who has the right to commit violence against whom.
What I find interesting here is that both sides of this Indian genetics argument have worthwhile points.
First, this article and linked paper seem like a decent overview of Indian genetics (BTW, the paper title: “Genomic reconstruction of the history of extant populations of India reveals five distinct ancestral components and a complex structure”)
https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/01/the-caste-system-has-left-its-mark-on-indians-genomes/
But AFAICT Indians (all castes) group closely on world comparison PCA plots. The best reference I see for that is the PCA plot after the MORE.
Yet, there do appear to be significant differences (both cultural and genetic) between Indian castes.
Focusing on the IQ differences, I wish I had a better handle on the relative magnitudes of these effects.
– Environmental differences between Indians in the US and both rural and urban Indians in India.
– Genetic differences due to caste.
– Selectivity of Indian immigration to the US.
Any thoughts on that?
Paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-66953-3
Low corruption is almost exclusively a Northern European and Anglo phenomenon, okay? It virtually doesn’t exist in any other part of the globe. I mean, a little bit in central Europe, it’s kind of Teutonic as well as Nordic and Anglo.
Although various forms of public corruption are tolerated in Japan, private corruption rates compare favorably with European nations. People routinely turn in untraceable cash they found to police in Japan.
Somewhat OT – A massive 200 person brawl broke out at a Baton Rouge middle school. The student body composition will doubtless shock you.
Re: Indian subcontinent genetics
I find Razib Khan’s essays and podcasts on this topic to be both fine-grained and lucid. Here is a link to his long Dec. 2022 Substack essay, Passing the civilizational purity test: India’s 3000-year caste straitjacket:
Exploring varna, jati and endogamy in Indian genomes.
His conclusions are broadly the same as yours.
I’ll come back later to give your post a Dot-Agree for “What I find interesting here is that both sides of this Indian genetics argument have worthwhile points” once Ron recharges my Agree/Disagree battery.
A family is a small ethnic group; a race is an extended family
True enough, but in that case the winners would perforce recognize that as a group they must organize.
Another fake news NYT piece in the “Burn the Witch!” category.
I’m sure UPenn and the Times will find comfort in the Galileo precedent. The Pope even had an Inquisition trial forcing him to recant and live under house arrest.
I’m sure our new Woke academia will want to revive this “truth finding” precedent. Amy Wax on trial for heresy!
Though the Woke torture will consist mostly of having to listen to various Woke authorities ramble on endlessly about how everything is about Systemic Racism. Thus everything bad is the fault of White people. Especially White men.
You can already enjoy previews of this on NPR.
Could we said then Scott Adams is right again?
And in those days a prosperous man ran through two wives to do it.
If the average iq of India is the same as Haiti, that means that half of India in dumber than the average Haitian. Maybe that is the case, but that suggests that the psychometric definition of intelligence is much different than the general meaning of intelligence. However bright or dim, the vast majority of Indians commit to long term monogamous marriages and they wait till marriage to have sex. They don’t seem to have a problem with teenagers mugging others or engaging in haphazard violence. Probably Indian teens mainly just obey their parents and work the fields if that’s what they have available to them, or work on their homework if school is an option.
In the sense of India and Haiti both being poor countries where people live in squalor and work in subsistence agriculture, Indians and Haitians are similar. But in the sense of the time preference Indians and Haitians manifest, even while employed in the same kind of economic role, Indians act like there is more in the pre frontal cortex compared to Haitians.
“[W]hy raise the contentious genetic issue at all? It must be raised because it is widely, and reasonably, assumed that among environmental factors, only oppression can produce an attainment gap as large as the one between the races…. Once environmentalism is accepted, the compensation argument returns at one remove: superior ability may give whites an advantage but, the cause of the superiority was a wrong, a wrong that must be annulled”. Unfortunately:-
Your example of German corruption is Germans dealing with non-Germans (fueris Romæ)?
Thank you – the idea that caste level roughly corresponds to Aryan steppe ancestry was intuited by the late Hakan Rotmwrt (pbuh) when he wrote
https://zyg.edith.reisen/k/detritus/hakon.html
Consider the Indian executive who was at a Western order celebrating conference and was asked where are the Indian megacorps: he totally dodges the question but with a posture to confuse low verbals, pointing out that Indians both head all those (non-Indian founded) companies and make up a huge part of their customers. One is tempted with the image of Ralph Ellison carpeting his floor with working light bulbs, with the caption, “This is the same thing as being Thomas Edison.”
Move on. Nothing to see here.
(Only because there are really no surprises).
The talented tenth in India works out to be a 100 million people. If we restricted it to Brahmin’s it’s around 5% of the country or 50 million people. A talented and nepotistic bunch with different languages and script.
Rock Hudson was a good actor, but not that good…
I wasn’t referring to women in academia per se. I was speaking of women in the public eye, in general.
Camille Paglia is, last time I heard, still a professor, and she’s pretty outspoken in many areas–sadly, not about race, though. She’s a Rush Limbaugh scale race cuck.
Interestingly, while she loves negroes so much, she chooses to make her home (which is in the Philadelphia area, no less) in a posh all-White Philly suburb. Why do these people deprive themselves of the pleasure of the blacks that they say they love so much? Sad!
Back to my original statement-I mean Boebert and Kari Lake and MTG in politics. Lauren Southern and Laura Loomer. Even Ann Coulter. They at least have some balls.
This has nothing to do with age or old vs. young. Both younger and older generations of conservatives skew in a more nationalist/populist direction politically than boomers.
IQ is only one of many components of racial personality differences. Blacks are high on narcissistic and psychopathic personality traits. Blacks mature faster, have different hormonal systems, different neurotransmitter systems and differences in brain structure in terms of the size and development of different parts.
Most people in India poop on the ground in the middle of the street in front of the public and just walk away. Africans dig holes in the ground. In some ways, most Indians are lower functioning than most blacks. Indians have low IQ, but are not the same as blacks, just like Asians have high IQ but are not the same as whites in their behavior. Some people with a monomania over IQ are having a hard time grasping that.
We see this narrow focus on IQ and IQ only with the asianphiles, philosemites and MENA-deniers — people who say that non-European people with high IQ or MENA people can replace Europeans in the West and everything will be fine.
Judging from the school sign out front, I’m sure that the idiots running this “school” think that what they are doing there is just wonderful — a model for the nation. Can’t we just shut these worthless effing places down?
Not quite. South Asian IQ is 79-83 for Pakistan, Bangladesh, and India. An average of 81.
However bright or dim, the vast majority of Indians commit to long term monogamous marriages and they wait till marriage to have sex. They don’t seem to have a problem with teenagers mugging others or engaging in haphazard violence. Probably Indian teens mainly just obey their parents and work the fields if that’s what they have available to them, or work on their homework if school is an option.
This has nothing to do with IQ. Here we get into race and personality.
The Indian race is mostly Caucasoid like us and partly Asiatic. The behavior you describe above is typical for both of these groups.
The problems of the Black race go far beyond IQ. Lack of marriage commitment, early sexuality, street violence and robberies, and general violence and mayhem are part of the basic Black personality and are found everywhere on Earth that you find Black folks.
None of these things have anything to do with IQ, although lower IQ Blacks will display these more, and higher IQ Blacks receive some protective effect from an elevated IQ, hence they engage in this behavior less. For instance, if you hold IQ constant at 113, Black and White crime rates are the same. Hence the higher IQ is protective so that the Black person is able to override these instinctive personality traits via inhibition. Inhibition rises with higher IQ and vice versa. Lower IQ people tend to have less ability to inhibit their behaviors and are much more impulsive.
The caste system was indeed imposed by the light-skilled Indo-Aryan Indo-Europeans who invaded India 3,500 years ago. They thought they were superior to the Munda and Dravidian people they conquered, and hence imposed caste on them as a consequence of conquest.
No, it’s not been a straightforward fight yet, James. In Charlottesville you had the Unite the Right group that only wanted to protest the destruction of culture and history, but were ready to fight the Commies back, as they didn’t see unilaterally getting their asses kicked, as had happened before, as a good strategy. Yet, the Establishment legally kicked their asses afterwards. What went wrong? They had not enough support, as most people who inherently support their cause felt they had too much to lose to get involved.
Well, Washington, FS had a much bigger crowd on 1/6/21, so what went wrong there? First of all, they had no plan to battle the left or the government that day. The taking of Political Prisoners was a surprise, a warning from the Regime, but also something to take under advisement for the right: Better mean it if you do have an ACTUAL insurrection – better go all out.
See, James, Americans still have too much to lose, or they just think they have too much to lose. If more people could see these Communists for who they are, and how late it is in the game, they might feel like, no, they don’t have so much to lose compared to seeing their once-great nation being the next experiment in Communism/Totalitarianism.
Contrary to your comment, in a straightforward fight, i.e., one in which the right KNOWS it’s actually in, the left is highly outgunned. I don’t just mean that in regards to guns and ammo. The left is highly outgunned in terms of capability. Many on the right are still “get ‘er done!” people. All the left knows is “get ‘er destroyed!”
I think many would argue that the sentence: “currently on average Black in the USA show lower scores that whites on IQ scores” is indisputable. But the sentence “on average Black in the USA have lower cognitive ability” is not.
Keen. They are two distinct propositions.
Orwell also said something to the effect that some ideas are so self evidently wrong that only a professor would believe in them. I think social science academics in particular are heavily deluded on this issue(s). I don’t think they all to all say one thing and believe it’s opposite.
10 billion to one the Jewish student drew the anti Semitic pictures. Probably paid a Mexican to turn off the security cameras.
It is not a joke. Structure is a specific term in the study of genetics. Indians, just as the Europeans do, have a greater genetic structure than the Chinese, who, in turn, have a greater genetic structure than the Koreans.
Yes, there is. Indians – whatever the caste – cluster very closely with each other genetically than they do with other large population groups (the exceptions being Indian citizens who are ethnic minorities, e.g. the much more East Asian-like groups in Manipur or Nagaland or the various tribal groups).
I believe commenter “res” posted the PCA plot above that demonstrates this clearly.
It’s not all that complicated – Indians in the U.S. are extremely highly selected educationally. They are not racially different from less educated (ordinary) Indians in India. You could say the same thing about the Chinese if the top 5% of the educated people in Shanghai showed up here tomorrow and then you compared their behaviors with the backward rural Chinese populations (though, again, as I pointed out before, Indians genetically have much more structure than the Chinese, meaning, yes, the former is genetically a more diverse population than the Chinese).
You and I have discussed some of these before. The selectivity of Indian immigration to the U.S. is exceptionally high – 40% of them have graduate degrees!
I don’t think environmental differences between the U.S. and India are much of a factor, simply because large-scale Indian immigration to the U.S. is quite recent. There are extremely few multigenerational Indians in the U.S. the way there are Japanese- or Chinese-Americans.
However, I do think that India has had extremely varied Flynn Effect inter-regionally within India itself. Some of this is urban vs. rural, some state vs. state (say Rajasthan vs. Tamil-Nadu), East vs. West, North vs. South*, coastal vs. inner desert, governance differences (some Indian states are pro-business, others are pretty Marxist, etc.).
Genetic difference due to caste is an interesting phenomenon, but one thing that’s fascinating (and perhaps bodes well for ordinary Indians) is that Indians in Singapore have higher average income per capita than the dominant Chinese, yet they, by and large, hail from menial laborer backgrounds. There is clearly a huge amount of studies to be done on Indians in all sorts of scientific ways, genetics included (to be frank, though, just collecting good data from India is difficult, due to the weakness of the central government).
*By the way, some of the commenters here seem to have a vague sense that northern India is more “Aryan” and southern India more Dravidian or, perhaps even more crudely, that the people in the north are fairer than the people in the south. As such, I think they often expect northern India to be more developed or higher performing. In reality, though, southern India is, in general, better off economically than the north:
Or is it, then, “ethnic nepotism”? I thought Nordics and Germanics had universalist empathetic trust traits!
What I am pointing out was that “corruption” has very different definitions across countries and cultures. We have lots of money sloshing around in politics, which would be viewed by other countries and cultures as being deeply corrupt, but since it’s “legal” here, it’s largely not seen as corruption.
Likewise, interlocking directorships (which was much more common in Japan) are seen as corrupt in the West in general (even though they were also common in the West in a different era).
Now, does that means all corruption is subjective? No, I don’t think that’s quite the case. What I would characterize as corruption is what is often called “grease payments.”* If the government official who stamp I need to file some document sticks his hand out for such a payment, I view that as corruption, something that affects the daily lives of ordinary people negatively and lowers the quality of life in general. In that regard, I don’t think most developed countries are all that different and such petty corruptions have been stamped out (pun intended). Political corruption, however, is still rampant even in much of the developed world.
*Side note: I don’t know where the current legislation is, but Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, when it was enacted, specifically excepted paying “grease payments” overseas, in recognition of the fact that these were a way of life in certain underdeveloped countries.
They are graded blindly, but at the exam board stage, all the individual student names are revealed to the faculty and deans, so that specific issues, such as personal difficulties that may justify leniency, can be acccounted for in raising some individual grades, and to choose prize-winners from among the best performing students. Hence the grading is blind but post-grading the names of all the students and their individual grades are shown to the faculty and deans. This is also when the range of grades is examined statistically to look for any troubling patterns.
Consider the Indian executive who was at a Western order celebrating conference and was asked where are the Indian megacorps: he totally dodges the question but with a posture to confuse low verbals, pointing out that Indians both head all those (non-Indian founded) companies and make up a huge part of their customers. One is tempted with the image of Ralph Ellison carpeting his floor with working light bulbs, with the caption, “This is the same thing as being Thomas Edison.”
Well, we can’t deny that the Indians are highly skilled at “gaslighting!”
The “I spend all of my time advocating for an extreme form of ethnic nepotism for myself, while also claiming that I’m innately too pure and innocent for even minor corruption in this way” is the online RW equivalent of black people claiming to be ultra-peaceful and threatening to bomb, murder and rape anyway who doesn’t enthusiastically agree.
I don’t think AD was saying that whites are perfect, I think he was trying to say that some people have at least some concept of corruption being bad, and most do not. Societies which outlaw murder still produce murderers, but there’s still a real difference between Swtitzerland and pre-Bukele Salvador.
Are you sure that was wealth and not income?
It would be the first time I’ve seen that.
What’s “RW”? Right-wing?
That seems like an odd criticism. India has the 8th largest number of companies in the 2022 Forbes Global 2000. Though I suppose if you look at it as per capita…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_Global_2000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_in_India
She has inoperable ectopic conjoined twins.
That is interesting and possibly important.
What data do you have on their backgrounds? Is it recent? What I see in a quick look at Wikipedia is a historic (colonial) balance heavily tilted towards menial labor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Singaporean_Indians#Social_characteristics
But with (almost) a third decline in population proportion from 1957 to 1980 and 50% increase in population proportion since 1980.
Wiki mentions a “repatriation of many Indian base workers” when the British military withdrew in the 1970s.
My understanding is current immigration policy is selective with menial labor not offered permanent settlement.
Given that, I suspect the current Indian population of Singapore is more selected than you indicate. But I would be happy to see data demonstrating otherwise.
Unfortunately I don’t see brain drain immigration data for Singapore.
This looks relevant, but I don’t have time to dig into it in depth. A quick look aligns with my comment above.
More than race: a comparative analysis of “new” Indian and Chinese migration in Singapore
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01419870.2021.1924391
This also looks relevant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Singaporeans#Income_and_education
Or you could save a buttload of time and effort by just using a proxy browser.
Could it be that Indians do blue collar work that Chinese don’t do? I know blue collar workers in the U.S. that easily clear $100,00 a year- some are clearing $200,000 a year….
Re “grease payments”: Bill Clinton fired the entire staff of the White House travel office, on the pretext that the head of the office had been keeping a slush fund. The fund did exist. It was there to bribe 3rd World airport workers to not steal the luggage of the press, who do not all get to ride on Air Force One. The press jumped on him for that, because they wanted their equipment to arrive.
Bill really just wanted to hand the travel arranging to some of his crooked Arkansas friends.
The greater problem with black low average IQ is that half of them are below that average.
it’s pretty close to indisputable since every test follows the same pattern, not just IQ tests. It’s hard to argue whites aren’t smarter than blacks when they out perform blacks by a similar margin on literally every test designed to measure logical thinking ability. i am not sure there are tests that you have to take to become an electrician or plumber that are literally just plumbing and electrical questions, but if there are i guarantee they follow the exact same pattern as the gmat, the sat, raven’s progressive matrices, GRE, lsat, police/firefighter entrance exams, the bar etc.
It doesn’t matter what the test subject matter is, if it tests your ability to think logically you see the exact same pattern every time.
There are civil service exams to get an electrician’s or whathaveyou positions with local governments. Affirmative action is there to straighten out the bell curve.
As we here at iSteve would figure, it seems the most successful part of India is the former Portuguese colony of Goa.
Nothing new under the sun.
Singapore is also very low corruption.
I suspect differernt jati may be as far apart as, say, French and Swedes, or maybe Spanish and Ashenazi Jews.
OTOH, let’s raise a glass to Marie Curie, who had a couple daughters, one of whom was also a Nobelist. After winning two Nobels herself.
>Given that, I suspect the current Indian population of Singapore is more selected than you indicate. But I would be happy to see data demonstrating otherwise.
One of the historical quirks I’ve noticed about India is that a lot of educated Indians who staffed the bureaucracy of the Raj came to identify with British culture. (If you look up a young Gandhi, you’ll see what I mean.) Prior to WWI, they wanted to be British. After WWI, they wanted independence, but many still operated in that mindsphere, and the impact it had on Indian politics after 1947 was profound.
Why does this matter in Singapore, where the Indian diaspora is nowhere nearly as uniformly Tamil (the Singaporean government is cagey with statistics, but the general consensus is that Singaporean Indian community is 50-55% Tamil) and poor as in neighboring Malaysia, where all the tin and rubber plantations? Because while many immigrants were laborers, not all of them were, and for labor, you had a near endless supply of desperate Chinese on hand anyway. No, Singapore was a major colonial hub. You needed security personnel, businessmen, bureaucrats, especially as the local economy grew. This was something India could provide.
https://academic.oup.com/book/4208/chapter-abstract/146023908?redirectedFrom=fulltext
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/603907/pdf
The general upshot is that after the 1860s, Indian immigration to Singapore became a lot more regulated: and this coincided with the British bureaucracy becoming a lot more “British-ized” in India after the events of 1857. The patterns of migration began to select more for merchants and security.
(East Africa is another interesting counterpoint, because the local Indians fulfilled the same role there as the ethnic Chinese did in much of Southeast Asia, complete with the political repression of postwar regimes.)
* This gets more interesting when you discover that the native intelligentsia did the exact same thing with the previous rulers of India: in a sense, playing polo and wearing top hats would be the new version of dabbling in Persian court poetry and wearing Islamically inspired clothes.
A comparison with China is worthwhile, as the Qing in China were another foreign “conquest” dynasty at roughly the same time as the Mughals. Although Chinese nationalist historiography tends to exaggerate how much the Manchus “looked up” to the Chinese and didn’t try to keep their ethnic separation alive through legal restrictions on the Han (there’s a reason the Taiping Rebellion was virulently anti-Manchu to the point of having genocidal overtones and a lot of the turn of the century Chinese revolutionary stuff used an idealized, nativist image of the Ming dynasty as an idealized counterpoint to the Manchus), it remains true that you didn’t see the local Chinese bureaucrats aspiring to Mongol or Manchu culture. The Qing didn’t encourage them-quite the opposite-but I doubt they would have been interested, anyway. Qing emperors might have spent time in the saddle on the steppe to ensure they didn’t go totally soft, but they did their daily work in Chinese, spoke Chinese, and generally existed in a Chinese thought world. They generally bent over backwards to be paragons of Confucian virtue in the eyes of the subjects.
My impression-and it is nothing but, to be clear-is that this didn’t happen in India. Although the Mughals were happy to employ and tolerate Hindus as long as long as they toed the line, they remained Islamic Central Asian potentates who spoke Persian at court, and whose ideal was local Indians assimilating to their norms, not the other way around. You can see how this created a pretty good template for the British, who had the luck to arrive when India was removed enough from the Mughal state to be in chaos but not so removed that the legacy of bureaucracy wasn’t there.
We were watching Cobra Kai back when it was still on YouTube. The first episode or two were available for free, then we bought the first two seasons when they were released on disc (because who subscribes to YouTube?)
At some point while we were watching them I turned to my wife and said, “What this show really needs is to be be snapped up by Netflix so it can have a real audience.” A few months later that’s exactly what happened.
It’s a great series. Completely cheesy, but it owns it. Maybe one of the best series out there.
And yes, our oldest child (not yet in high school) enjoys watching it with us.
There is definitely a genetic component co-determining a person’s stubbornness, innate independence of thought and courage to go against prevailing social currents as an adult. Of course, non-genetic factors including a stable home life with two parents also play a significant role.
In the U.S., college admissions procedures have been developed and refined for decades to identify and weed out independent thinkers at the application stage. It has become a meme to say that documented participation in 4-H agricultural clubs at high school level guarantees non-admission to Ivy League schools.
Conversely, there are no doubt some ultra-secret institutional channels to connect highly gifted but obstreperous individuals with special functions where their gifts are expected to serve Deep State interests.
No doubt.
The problem with that analogy is that the definition and legality of murder are pretty universal, but those for corruption are not.
The difference was that the Mughals brought a vastly different religious sensibility to India than the Manchus did to China.
Yup, that’s the extent of my knowledge on that (and what I was told in Singapore). I did look up some income data years ago.
Singapore has had a very selective immigration policy for a while, and it applied to others, not just Indians. As I recall, it used to offer citizenship to those with Ph.D.’s and such.
But so is the Chinese population in Singapore, yet Indians do well there.
My point wasn’t so much that ordinary or downscale Indians were suddenly going to rise in income (or cognitive ability, for that matter) to match those of the Chinese, but that there is at least some evidence that they might benefit significantly from better nutrition and hygiene as well as good governance, possibly leading to high Flynn Effect gains.
Look, I am a hereditarian. But many people around here take that to mean the opposite of blank slate-ism when, in reality, it means recognizing significant roles of both heredity and environment.
That’s a very good point – although, when I looked at the data, Indian Singaporeans had a higher income per capita than the Chinese Singaporeans, it didn’t provide distribution. But comparing the mean income with the median should provide some inkling.
“the entire Establishment run by the Communists now”
So Karl Marx was right after all, when he said that the revolution will begin in highly industrialised countries first? I’ve always heard that the 1917 Bolshevik revolution was an aberration, that Marx had not predicted it.
Is working at a Chinese restaurant or laundry blue collar work?
Why not?
The prosperity of the southern coast of India goes much further back than the Portuguese colonial days. That area traded actively with the Romans, the Arabs, the Persians, and the Chinese (and even Koreans) since ancient times and was prosperous.
Understood. The human tendency toward believing in false dichotomies is strong. As an aside, can anyone suggest good looks at that phenomenon?
One thing that matters in the nature/nurture debate is that environment includes a great deal of not well understood randomness–which tends to average out in the population, but not in individuals.
But the non-random parts (especially between populations) can definitely include the possibility of your:
Which I agree with. The question is how much of the gaps might close. The problem I see is topics like this are so controversial these days it is hard to discuss them. Much less gather and analyze good data.
One other thought about Indian genetics. Does anyone have an opinion on how much of the between caste genetic differences might be due to founder effects rather than 1500 years of selection within separated groups? I think it is reasonable to assume that before formal caste segregation the people in those different groups tended to have attributes favorable to “belonging” in their group.
Hard to say. I’m guessing you mean skilled blue collar (e.g. trades). I don’t know how that would fit in with immigration policy. This Quora question might be worth a look.
https://www.quora.com/Can-a-blue-collar-type-move-to-Singapore
My children were told since elementary school that they are not allowed to call anyone “stupid”. Instead they can only say “they are not well prepared.” That’s what Amy Wax should’ve said, “On average, black students are not as well prepared as white students.” But we’ll all know what she means. “Not well prepared” is the new speak for “stupid”.
Honestly, Marc, I’ve never read anything but basic quotes from Karl Marx. However, I know a Communist when I see one. The antifa types and others of Los Resentidos around America and the West may as well have been reincarnated directly from the Cuban Los Revolutionaries, Mao’s Red Guards, the Bolsheviks, or some nicer-dressed guys raising hell in Berlin 90-100 years back until one guy with the funny mustache went well too far in taking care of that.
I don’t consider the US very industrialized anymore. What I see from history is that the Commies do best in countries in which there is a lot of economic turmoil going on. Often these same people have encouraged said turmoil for years beforehand.
There’s no way the Communists could have taken this country from the inside in the 1950s for example. They tried in the ’60s, but even through the 00’s, the nation was still too prosperous and united. That’s why, by plan or just happenstance, the Long March through the American Institutions, starting with the press and the US State Dept. as early as the 1930’s took so damned Long.
Kerala beef curry! Inspired by Syrian Christians.
> The difference was that the Mughals brought a vastly different religious sensibility to India than the Manchus did to China.
I know that’s part of it, but I’m curious as to whether there’s a deeper cultural difference in how foreign influences are dealt with.
You can work in Singapore as a construction worker or maid. That doesn’t mean you get to stay at the end of your contract. The guest workers do not complain because the money they earn often means electricity and plumbing for their rural village back in Bangladesh or they can go back to Indonesia, start a business, and get married to their girlfriend working as a maid a few MRT stops over.
For professionals, it’s a different story. Most, but not all, of the middle class types who emigrate are from the PRC, though there is a sizable Indian contingent, too. The people I’m familiar with immigrated decades ago and are Singaporean citizens, but scuttlebutt has it that these days, there are Indians trying to use Singaporean passports as an easier way of getting to the US, which is… something.
Also, there’s been a heavy exodus of Chinese crypto guys out of Hong Kong recently: I’ve known dudes who just booked a chartered flight, got what money they could out, and hightailed it. This reflects a general trend of Singapore becoming the “default” exit option for wealthy Chinese who need that, whether because they are facing genuine corruption charges or are just on Xi’s bad side. (Or both. Hardly mutually exclusive in the PRC.)
The original Bolshevik project in Russia only got off the ground thanks to a societal collapse that was beyond anybody’s imagination before WWI, and it is very likely that had the Japanese not invaded China, Chiang Kai-Shek would have completed the job of exterminating the CCP. Nobody predicted these things. Pyotr Durnovo, the chief of the Tsarist secret police who saved Nicholas II during the 1905 revolution, predicted the consequences of WWI more accurately than Lenin or Trotsky did.
Weirdly enough, when mainstream institutions and figures fail on such an epic scale or outright refuse to address the questions their people want addressed, their people might turn to institutions and figures that are decidedly not mainstream to do that instead!
Yes, and weirdly enough, as I stated above, it’s very often these same Communists who get the ball rolling that causes so much destruction and ends up long later prompting those questions from the population.
Sure, all those Commies just lucked out. Yeah, right …
Ho Chi Minh didn’t start out as a Communist at all, BTW. He’d spent lots of time in France, so he had no problem with the Western Capitalist world. He had figured that after WWII, France would finally let go of this colony. He picked Communism just as the best way to rile up the population for his cause.
What about, “Blacks have, on average, higher cognitive ability than Whites”?
That’s a popular myth, but it’s not true. Ho Chi Minh was a dedicated Communist who used the conditions of total war with the French, coupled with military aid from post-1949 China that allowed the Vietnamese to sustainably fight a conventional war, to establish a totalitarian state. The dynamics of how land reform was implemented are a particularly good showcase of this. His coalition rivals were either assassinated, put on show trials and executed, or got with the Communist program.
I’m not suggesting the North Vietnamese government wasn’t nationalist: they were, to the point of racial xenophobia sometimes, something that always causes me to smirk whenever I look at your typical Boomer liberal’s romanticism about that regime. But so was the South Vietnamese government. Both sides agreed they wanted a unified Vietnam (i.e, no repeat of Korea) free of foreign management. They just disagreed on the model to take to get there. Funnily enough, in the South, Ngo Dinh Diem did the same thing: he came to power as primer inter pares of a coalition, but then started offing or sidelining his rivals as the years went by. Although he never established total control like Ho did (he didn’t need to, groups like the Hoa Hao hated the Communists even more than they hated him because of the aforementioned assassinations and purges) by the early 1960s, he’d more or less succeeded. His downfall was due to other factors.
>Yes, and weirdly enough, as I stated above, it’s very often these same Communists who get the ball rolling that causes so much destruction and ends up long later prompting those questions from the population.
I look at it like this: potential crises *always* happen. That’s life. They can be mitigated or they can grow. How much effort does it take to deal with the crisis, or even survive it? That depends on the preexisting order, not the challenger. Most people don’t want to gamble unless they think a) they see no chance of getting what they want in the preexisting order and b) the challenger promises something they don’t, and looks like they might succeed and deliver. Snowball effect.
“Conversely, there are no doubt some ultra-secret institutional channels to connect highly gifted but obstreperous individuals with special functions”
Well no doubt by now it’s all something completely different (in both the literal and the Monty Python senses), but for a long time it used to be understood that Harvard favored smart-but-crazy weirdos, Brown favored weirdos (smart was optional), whereas Yale and other Ivies favored smart-but-obedient or smart-but-pretend-crazy future apparatchiks.
Way back in the Before-Times, at my Harvard interview I spent most of the allotted time ranting like a nutcase about Thomas Paine, and probably sounded as obsessive as Paine was himself; I got in. My equally high-scoring friend talked boilerplate about his deep commitment to social justice in El Salvador — he didn’t get in, but he did get into Yale.
But of course now it’s all just a racial-spoils system, with whites assigned to sit at the children’s table.
“The human tendency toward believing in false dichotomies is strong. As an aside, can anyone suggest good looks at that phenomenon?”
Chuang-Tzu (esp. the so-called “inner chapters”), Tao Te Ching (The Book of the Path and Its Power).
Thank you. I see this translation/interpretation of The Inner Chapters of Chuang-Tzu online.
https://terebess.hu/english/Chuang-Tzu-Graham.pdf
Some samples.
Page 28
Page 42
Page 225
Amazon page for that book.