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From the NYT Opinion section:

Elizabeth Warren and the Folly of Genetic Ancestry Tests

DNA can’t tell us about identity.

I realize I am a horrible extremist, unlike the folks who pronounce so confidently in the New York Times, but it would seem to me that DNA can tell us some things about human identity, which is an interestingly complex subject.

For example, Honolulu preppy Barack Obama may well have had less “lived experience” while growing up of being an African American than did Rachel Dolezal, who grew up with black (adopted) siblings. But Obama had the DNA (and a 150,000-word memoir explaining that his “Story of Race and Inheritance” was all about his “Dreams From My Father”), while Dolezal didn’t have the DNA.

By Alondra Nelson

Dr. Nelson is the author of “The Social Life of DNA: Race, Reparations and Reconciliation After the Genome.”

Oct. 17, 2018

… The truth is that sets of DNA markers cannot tell us who we really are because genetic data is technical and identity is social.

Or maybe identity is a little more complicated than that?

… To be Native American is to be a member of a tribal community and recognized by that community as such. DNA cannot vouchsafe tribal identity or any other community affiliation.

I’ve often made a similar argument in regard to Senator Warren’s claim, but let me flip that around and point out there are probably individuals who are clearly Native American by biological ancestry without qualifying for membership in any one tribe. Say you have one great-grandparent from each of four Indian nations that require a 1/4th “blood quantum.” Then you wouldn’t qualify for membership in any single tribe, but you’d be half American Indian. It would be quite reasonable for you to therefore self-identify as possessing a reasonable claim to genetic membership in the Indian race as a whole even though you wouldn’t qualify legally for membership in any single Indian nation.

There are probably other cases, such as adoptions and cuckoo’s eggs, where somebody couldn’t legally qualify for tribal membership but would have a decent claim for genetic relationship. For example, on Mike Judge’ sitcom King of the Hill, Bobby Hill’s friend Joseph Gribble is legally the white son of Dale and Nancy Gribble, but is obviously the natural son of their Indian friend John Redcorn, although conspiracy theorist Dale Gribble doesn’t notice.

 
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  1. Or maybe identity is a little more complicated than that?

    Please define identity.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Who you are.
    , @PiltdownMan
    Who we tell you you are.
    , @Alfa158
    That’s a tough question to answer and there is no consensus.
    According to the NYT writer Nelson your identity is external, it is defined as being of whichever group accepts you as one of them:
    “To be Native American is to be a member of a tribal community and recognized by that community as such.”
    Since Indians don’t recognize Warren as a member of that community, then according to Nelson, it doesn’t matter what her DNA shows, she is not Indian.
    Some people define your identity as who you think you are. That may be true to the extent of self identification of what kind of a person you are, what your beliefs, ambitions, politics, ethics, make you.
    When it comes to race and ethnicity however I think the majority of people reject that and accept the genetic definition. Rachel Dolezal identified as Black, larped as Black and was accepted by the Black community which assumed she had some tiny component of African ancestry. When it was revealed that she didn’t, the Black community cast her into the wilderness and she was forbidden from continuing to larp as Black. Almost all Chinese believe you are Chinese regardless of where you were born and how you identify. If you are Chinese and working in a military or technological position the PLA intelligence services will regard you as Chinese and determine if you can be persuaded to provide information as your duty to your people.
    I look North African, my DNA is majority Italian with another large component of Caucasian, which covers a huge block of territory from the up through the Caucuses and across through Mesopotamia, and a smattering of European Jewish and Iberian. Although I’m not particularly White looking, my ancient green card lists me as a White, everybody has always treated me as White and I self identify as such.
    So, I don’t know, it all sounds like your identity comes down to a weighted score of genetics, self identity and how communities identity you?
  2. Anonymous[284] • Disclaimer says:

    There are probably other cases, such as adoptions and cuckoo’s eggs, where somebody couldn’t legally qualify for tribal membership but would have a decent claim for genetic relationship.

    Or take Jews, for example. Is someone who can matrilinearly trace his ancestry back through 7 generations of atheist or agnostic mothers and grandmothers to a Jewish great etc grandmother a Jew? How about someone born to a Jewish father and Christian mother?

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Or a convert (0% genes) compared to someone whose father and whose mother's father were Jewish?
    , @Iberiano
    What is interesting is how Jews, being liberals usually, do not seem to comprehend that the matrilineal descent requirement, is an anti-slut device. It actually used to be (like other ME cultures) patrilineal. However, at some point, "purity" of some Jewish heritage was necessary as they bottlenecked, who knows which point in time.

    As the saying goes in Latin America, "The child of my daughter is my grandchild...the child of my son [shrugging shoulders]..

    You are right though, you literally could be 1/10000 "Jewish", simply beceause you matrilineally descend from a Jewish woman who lived 6,000 years ago. Every single person up the family tree could have been something else.
    , @Forbes

    How about someone born to a Jewish father and Christian mother?
     
    Or take Muslims, for that matter--say someone born to a Muslim father and a Christian mother?

    I believe Muslims see paternity as definitive, while Jews see maternity as such.
    , @Gandydancer
    "Or take Jews, for example. Is someone who can matrilinearly trace his ancestry back through 7 generations of atheist or agnostic mothers and grandmothers to a Jewish great etc grandmother a Jew? How about someone born to a Jewish father and Christian mother?"

    I think it was Gertrude Himmelfarb who observed that Jewishness is now defined by the Holocaust rather than Exodus. If Hitler would gas you for being a Jew, you're a Jew.
  3. “But Obama had the DNA ….”

    But the questions that remain unanswered are

    1) Whose DNA?
    2) Where was that DNA first expressed in the form of a live birth?

  4. Steve,

    Curious for your thoughts on First Man. Seems like another example of heightened liberal anxiety if not full mental breakdown.

    It starts out like it’s going to be a Mad Men for grown-ups with cool special effects before deteriorating into Ordinary People with cool special effects and egregious swipes at Buzz Aldrin.

    Bold choice to cast Victoria Bissell Brown as Armstrong’s wife.

    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Your good friend Johnny Pod’s review:

    https://www.weeklystandard.com/john-podhoretz/ryan-goslings-first-man-review-one-giant-flop-for-moviekind?itm_campaign=dy_rec&itm_medium=widget&itm_source=article&itm_content=item

    Reads like something Steve might write. Maybe this might be a good occasion to bury the hatchet between you two somewhere other than your back this time.

    Probably best not to mention the guy playing Aldrin looked to be channeling the elder Podhoretz.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/05/01/the-book-that-scandalized-the-new-york-intellectuals
  5. So to better our children’s chances at getting accepted into a good school, a plum job, right tribe, or whatever…, we should have them legally adopted by an African American transgender couple?

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    Add lesbian, and you'll have Harvard grads for offspring!
  6. Alondra Nelson is quite positive about Ameroafricans taking DNA tests, which in her eyes leads to “healing” the scars of slavery. She only shuns DNA tests for Whites.
    “Identity” is of course a confusion between the questions “What am I?” (my conditions and confinements) and “What do I want to be?” Factual and value statements must be separated again!

    • Replies: @FO337

    Alondra Nelson is quite positive about Ameroafricans taking DNA tests, which in her eyes leads to “healing” the scars of slavery. She only shuns DNA tests for Whites.
     
    DNA and Race are Good when We use them for Our Purposes,
    and Bad when you use them for, well, anything at all.

    Actually, in the latter case it's not even clear that they exist.

    Clear now?
  7. Score another one for Mike Judge

  8. @Anonymous

    Or maybe identity is a little more complicated than that?
     
    Please define identity.

    Who you are.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That's not real helpful, Dave.
  9. @Stogumber
    Alondra Nelson is quite positive about Ameroafricans taking DNA tests, which in her eyes leads to "healing" the scars of slavery. She only shuns DNA tests for Whites.
    "Identity" is of course a confusion between the questions "What am I?" (my conditions and confinements) and "What do I want to be?" Factual and value statements must be separated again!

    Alondra Nelson is quite positive about Ameroafricans taking DNA tests, which in her eyes leads to “healing” the scars of slavery. She only shuns DNA tests for Whites.

    DNA and Race are Good when We use them for Our Purposes,
    and Bad when you use them for, well, anything at all.

    Actually, in the latter case it’s not even clear that they exist.

    Clear now?

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Jefferson
    The Left used to be anti-one drop rule, but now The Left are pro-one drop rule atleast when it comes to Non Latinos and Non Arabs.

    The Left used to be free speech absolutists, now The Left are pro-censorship.

    The Left used to be anti-eugenics, now The Left is pro-eugenics especially when it comes to wanting to abort all Down Syndrome babies.

    The Left used to be anti-over population, now The Left is pro-over population because it results in open borders and more "diversity".
  10. @danand
    So to better our children's chances at getting accepted into a good school, a plum job, right tribe, or whatever..., we should have them legally adopted by an African American transgender couple?

    Add lesbian, and you’ll have Harvard grads for offspring!

  11. @Anonymous

    There are probably other cases, such as adoptions and cuckoo’s eggs, where somebody couldn’t legally qualify for tribal membership but would have a decent claim for genetic relationship.
     
    Or take Jews, for example. Is someone who can matrilinearly trace his ancestry back through 7 generations of atheist or agnostic mothers and grandmothers to a Jewish great etc grandmother a Jew? How about someone born to a Jewish father and Christian mother?

    Or a convert (0% genes) compared to someone whose father and whose mother’s father were Jewish?

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Or a convert (0% genes) compared to someone whose father and whose mother’s father were Jewish?
     
    Or such a convert compare to a Christian convert (or an atheist or an agnostic) whose father and mother were Jewish.
  12. @Tyrion 2
    Or a convert (0% genes) compared to someone whose father and whose mother's father were Jewish?

    Or a convert (0% genes) compared to someone whose father and whose mother’s father were Jewish?

    Or such a convert compare to a Christian convert (or an atheist or an agnostic) whose father and mother were Jewish.

  13. @Dave Pinsen
    Who you are.

    That’s not real helpful, Dave.

  14. When if ever will American blacks try to use DNA tests to outblack each other? Mixed race types are more prominent politically on a national level, but in congressional districts or local elections it might help to be able to say you are more black than your opponent. I could imagine Sharpe James doing this to Cory Booker. Or would that be too nerdy?

    On identity, Clarence Thomas is seems to have more African ancestry than most, and certainly “experienced” his African-ness growing up and speaking Gullah, but people would deny his membership in the community.

  15. OT but NYT Opinion pieces can now be headlined by literal pronouncements of ethnic hatred.

    I Didn’t Hate the English — Until Now
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

    Cool.

    Obviously it is followed by one inane ad hominem, accusation of defamatory blood guilt and NPC political pronouncement after another.

    Weird stuff.

    • Replies: @FO337
    The NYT doesn't give a flying F about the English or the Irish, except to whatever extent 'control' of those countries can further their tribal objectives. What they do care about--and likely what they're fomenting at your link (I don't click on NYT stories) --is more of their patented dīvide et imperā campaign against white people everywhere and anywhere. Whispering in anyone's ears who'll listen that "white people are evil and 1) you don't want to be counted among them and 2) they hate you too! Just look at this old classified ad from 1858! It proves what we're saying!"
    , @Tom-in-VA
    The more they publish stuff like this, the more evidence they give supporting, “This is why we have separate countries. “
    , @Almost Missouri
    The NYT is now just Sarah Jeong Tweets--The Extended Edition.
    , @DFH
    She sounds like an ex-girlfriend who's mad her former boyfriend (who was just so horrible to her!) doesn't think about her anymore
    , @Anonymous
    It was Frau Merkel who forced Britain out of the EU. The Irish should direct their complaints to Berlin not London.

    I like the veiled threat of violence if the Irish border is closed. So apparently to prevent terrorism the British need to keep an open border with Syria?
    , @Not Raul
    Ms. Nolan didn’t come up with the title.

    And the contents of the article aren’t “ad hominem”. The British elites really did do horrible things during their misrule of Ireland.
    , @Random Smartaleck
    Her animosity seems to actually stem from dislike of Euroscepticsm and the Conservatives, not anything to do with the Irish Question.
  16. The comments, particularly the highly rated ones, on that article are telling. Based on them, I wouldn’t rule Warren out in the future. Let’s recall that more than another other group it’s Never Trumpers and Norms-obsessed centrist ninnies with a history of making stellar predictions who are asserting she is finished. The lesson to be learned is to play Donald’s game, but don’t pull any punches.

  17. I’m just picturing Steve Martin dancing around on the porch of an enlarged shack at the end of the Jerk.

  18. That’s her thrown under the bus then.

    People, make sure you download the latest patch for the narrative: Elizabeth Warren’s classification has been modified from “Good” to “Bad”.

    Edit: actually that’s not a bad idea for a meme: narrative shift as software update, complete with changelog, major bug fixes, etc. Ties in well with this NPC thing that’s going around.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  19. @Tyrion 2
    OT but NYT Opinion pieces can now be headlined by literal pronouncements of ethnic hatred.

    I Didn’t Hate the English — Until Now
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

    Cool.

    Obviously it is followed by one inane ad hominem, accusation of defamatory blood guilt and NPC political pronouncement after another.

    Weird stuff.

    The NYT doesn’t give a flying F about the English or the Irish, except to whatever extent ‘control’ of those countries can further their tribal objectives. What they do care about–and likely what they’re fomenting at your link (I don’t click on NYT stories) –is more of their patented dīvide et imperā campaign against white people everywhere and anywhere. Whispering in anyone’s ears who’ll listen that “white people are evil and 1) you don’t want to be counted among them and 2) they hate you too! Just look at this old classified ad from 1858! It proves what we’re saying!”

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The NYT doesn’t give a flying F about the English or the Irish, except to whatever extent ‘control’ of those countries can further their tribal objectives.
     
    What are the tribal objectives for the owner-jockey who traded his family's camel for a burro?
  20. “unlike the folks who pronounce so confidently in the New York Times,”

    You mean pontificate?

  21. ” The truth is that sets of DNA markers cannot tell us who we really are because genetic data is technical and identity is social. ”

    I.e. I don’t understand technical stuff but I still have strong opinions, therefore identity is something I understand, and I understand social things, therefore identity is social.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @megabar
    > The truth is that sets of DNA markers cannot tell us who we really are because genetic data is technical and identity is social

    Yet, social is partly genetic (and thus "technical").

    I think many well-meaning liberals would adjust their stances on some important issues, if they understood how meaningful genetics are in almost everything we do -- and that the genes vary between different ethnicities and classes of people.

    That is, even though most liberals admit that the blank slate is false, they still largely act and vote as though it were true.
    , @Mr. Rational
    Too true (for the comfort of those who push this nonsense).
  22. “And so when someone like Ms. Warren emphasizes undocumented lineage over tribal citizenship criteria, said Dr. TallBear, who is a member of the Sisseton-Wahpeton Oyate tribe in South Dakota . . .”

    Undocumented lineage? I mean, I’ve heard of undocumented aliens before, but undocumented . . . natives?

    So that’s the new iSteve meme that I propose here: Undocumented Native.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/why-many-native-americans-are-angry-with-elizabeth-warren/ar-BBOwuFW?ocid=spartanntp&fbclid=IwAR3XxR52UM1X26a4gPO9g9Z0-x-888WB81k4lNd5BHOG3TNtxTBDlVzVYtg

  23. @Tyrion 2
    OT but NYT Opinion pieces can now be headlined by literal pronouncements of ethnic hatred.

    I Didn’t Hate the English — Until Now
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

    Cool.

    Obviously it is followed by one inane ad hominem, accusation of defamatory blood guilt and NPC political pronouncement after another.

    Weird stuff.

    The more they publish stuff like this, the more evidence they give supporting, “This is why we have separate countries. “

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  24. (Sigh) for the last time it’s not how you identify personally, but what you appear as to other people that matters. For most people there is no difference between those two, but for those who it is, once you except the latter of those two, life is a whole lot easier.

  25. @Tyrion 2
    OT but NYT Opinion pieces can now be headlined by literal pronouncements of ethnic hatred.

    I Didn’t Hate the English — Until Now
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

    Cool.

    Obviously it is followed by one inane ad hominem, accusation of defamatory blood guilt and NPC political pronouncement after another.

    Weird stuff.

    The NYT is now just Sarah Jeong Tweets–The Extended Edition.

    • LOL: Desiderius
  26. @Anonymous

    There are probably other cases, such as adoptions and cuckoo’s eggs, where somebody couldn’t legally qualify for tribal membership but would have a decent claim for genetic relationship.
     
    Or take Jews, for example. Is someone who can matrilinearly trace his ancestry back through 7 generations of atheist or agnostic mothers and grandmothers to a Jewish great etc grandmother a Jew? How about someone born to a Jewish father and Christian mother?

    What is interesting is how Jews, being liberals usually, do not seem to comprehend that the matrilineal descent requirement, is an anti-slut device. It actually used to be (like other ME cultures) patrilineal. However, at some point, “purity” of some Jewish heritage was necessary as they bottlenecked, who knows which point in time.

    As the saying goes in Latin America, “The child of my daughter is my grandchild…the child of my son [shrugging shoulders]..

    You are right though, you literally could be 1/10000 “Jewish”, simply beceause you matrilineally descend from a Jewish woman who lived 6,000 years ago. Every single person up the family tree could have been something else.

  27. @Tyrion 2
    OT but NYT Opinion pieces can now be headlined by literal pronouncements of ethnic hatred.

    I Didn’t Hate the English — Until Now
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

    Cool.

    Obviously it is followed by one inane ad hominem, accusation of defamatory blood guilt and NPC political pronouncement after another.

    Weird stuff.

    She sounds like an ex-girlfriend who’s mad her former boyfriend (who was just so horrible to her!) doesn’t think about her anymore

  28. “technical and identity is social.”

    That’s why in the olden days religion was the basis of identity. And why E Micheal Jones thinks ‘white identity’ is bs and everyone should identify as Catholic. Orthodox Jews define themselves as a covenant with God and not genetically, although they are comparatively close genetically.

    I personally support any attempt Warren might have made to pass herself off as ‘of Cherokee’ ancestry to get a job at Harvard*. You go girl!!!! Her very vague DNA test results probably prove that the very vague statement ‘of Cherokee ancestry’ is very vaguely true.

    * Her actual CV shows her starting off at a #50 ranked Law School and working her way up the law school rankings as a professor, researcher and administrator. When she applied for full time work at Harvard she had already worked there. That’s how a meritocracy works. If she didn’t do all that she could have had at least 2 more ‘White’ children.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Harvard is such a meritocracy. It's full of professors who proved themselves at lesser schools.
  29. Anonymous [AKA "Dumbass Deplorable"] says:

    Can’t we just have Don Lemon, Kamala Harris, Justice Sotomayor and the New York Times Editorial Board be the social and legal arbiters of identity? They are our betters, right?

  30. @Anonymous

    Or maybe identity is a little more complicated than that?
     
    Please define identity.

    Who we tell you you are.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  31. I think some of the left’s refusal to countenance genetic inheritance for some of the differences between different groups is sort of in good faith – in the sense that it is a point of religious dogma for them that environmental influences are all that prevents their pet racial/ethnic groups from being at least as successful as the hated white majority. All of their policy prescriptions are based on the idea that with just the right tinkering, disparities in income, incarceration, educational attainment, etc. will disappear and this glorious future is just around the corner.

    To accept that some – or maybe most – of these differences are just totally beyond the reach of political and policy solutions is to realize the faith you have practiced all of your life was directed at a false god. Most people are not willing to do this, and the result is that progressives resort to ever more creative ways to try to banish actual science from the conversation in favor of nebulous concepts like ‘white supremacy’ and inherited genetic trauma as an explanation for why half a century of liberal control of education and massive sums of public money have not moved the needle much on a wide array of social disparities.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    That’s the GOPe take.

    Lefties are more in the truth is a tool of power so what lies can we come up with to help the marginalized, or for the fake Left what lies let us make the most bank while keeping the marks from clueing into the con.
  32. Elizabeth Warren and the Folly of Genetic Ancestry Tests

    DNA can’t tell us about identity.

    Opines another science illiterate:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alondra_Nelson

  33. There are plenty of nonwhite kids adopted by whites.
    When it comes to Affirmative Action, the kids are always counted as whatever they are born as, not white.

  34. @Arclight
    I think some of the left's refusal to countenance genetic inheritance for some of the differences between different groups is sort of in good faith - in the sense that it is a point of religious dogma for them that environmental influences are all that prevents their pet racial/ethnic groups from being at least as successful as the hated white majority. All of their policy prescriptions are based on the idea that with just the right tinkering, disparities in income, incarceration, educational attainment, etc. will disappear and this glorious future is just around the corner.

    To accept that some - or maybe most - of these differences are just totally beyond the reach of political and policy solutions is to realize the faith you have practiced all of your life was directed at a false god. Most people are not willing to do this, and the result is that progressives resort to ever more creative ways to try to banish actual science from the conversation in favor of nebulous concepts like 'white supremacy' and inherited genetic trauma as an explanation for why half a century of liberal control of education and massive sums of public money have not moved the needle much on a wide array of social disparities.

    That’s the GOPe take.

    Lefties are more in the truth is a tool of power so what lies can we come up with to help the marginalized, or for the fake Left what lies let us make the most bank while keeping the marks from clueing into the con.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  35. Hey iSteve the ‘Tragic Octaroon’ not accepted by white or black culture was a staple of old timey pop literature. Updating for modern America and Sen Warren, Quadroon is 1/4, Octaroon is 1/8 what is 1/1000? If you are counting in Spanish/latin it would be quarto 4 Ocho 8 Mille 1000. So she would be a “Tragic Millaroon (Meelaroon?)” or if you count in Greek “Tragic Hilaroon” (χίλιοι (khilioi) for 1000) .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragic_mulatto#Tragic_mulatta

  36. @FO337

    Alondra Nelson is quite positive about Ameroafricans taking DNA tests, which in her eyes leads to “healing” the scars of slavery. She only shuns DNA tests for Whites.
     
    DNA and Race are Good when We use them for Our Purposes,
    and Bad when you use them for, well, anything at all.

    Actually, in the latter case it's not even clear that they exist.

    Clear now?

    The Left used to be anti-one drop rule, but now The Left are pro-one drop rule atleast when it comes to Non Latinos and Non Arabs.

    The Left used to be free speech absolutists, now The Left are pro-censorship.

    The Left used to be anti-eugenics, now The Left is pro-eugenics especially when it comes to wanting to abort all Down Syndrome babies.

    The Left used to be anti-over population, now The Left is pro-over population because it results in open borders and more “diversity”.

    • Agree: FO337
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Jefferson, all your "used to be"s can readily be qualified by "until we win."
  37. Anon[842] • Disclaimer says:

    The headline should read: “Ugh, Liz put her foot in her mouth again, so let’s see how we can spin this and rescue her as our presidential pick, because we don’t want a corrupt black like Corey Booker or Kamala Harris who will just turn the country into Detroit instead of bringing the socialist utopia, because let’s face it, after Obama, we just don’t trust blacks to be competent if he was the best they had to offer.”

    • Agree: fish, Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    No, it was his white half who let us down
    ;)
  38. @Anonymous

    Or maybe identity is a little more complicated than that?
     
    Please define identity.

    That’s a tough question to answer and there is no consensus.
    According to the NYT writer Nelson your identity is external, it is defined as being of whichever group accepts you as one of them:
    “To be Native American is to be a member of a tribal community and recognized by that community as such.”
    Since Indians don’t recognize Warren as a member of that community, then according to Nelson, it doesn’t matter what her DNA shows, she is not Indian.
    Some people define your identity as who you think you are. That may be true to the extent of self identification of what kind of a person you are, what your beliefs, ambitions, politics, ethics, make you.
    When it comes to race and ethnicity however I think the majority of people reject that and accept the genetic definition. Rachel Dolezal identified as Black, larped as Black and was accepted by the Black community which assumed she had some tiny component of African ancestry. When it was revealed that she didn’t, the Black community cast her into the wilderness and she was forbidden from continuing to larp as Black. Almost all Chinese believe you are Chinese regardless of where you were born and how you identify. If you are Chinese and working in a military or technological position the PLA intelligence services will regard you as Chinese and determine if you can be persuaded to provide information as your duty to your people.
    I look North African, my DNA is majority Italian with another large component of Caucasian, which covers a huge block of territory from the up through the Caucuses and across through Mesopotamia, and a smattering of European Jewish and Iberian. Although I’m not particularly White looking, my ancient green card lists me as a White, everybody has always treated me as White and I self identify as such.
    So, I don’t know, it all sounds like your identity comes down to a weighted score of genetics, self identity and how communities identity you?

    • Replies: @Jack D

    So, I don’t know, it all sounds like your identity comes down to a weighted score of genetics, self identity and how communities identity you?
     
    This is much too nuanced an approach. Leftist battles must be fought in black and white terms - are you a Good Person or a Bad Person? Bad people believe that there is a genetic component to race. Good people know that race has NOTHING to do with DNA.

    The self-identity vs how people see you thing is a conundrum for Leftists - OTOH, they insist that gender identity (which also has nothing to do with DNA) is based strictly on self-definition. Race is also supposed to be based on self-definition and yet Rachel Dolezal was seen as a bridge too far. Maybe this is only a question of time and the shifting of the Overton Window, like gay marriage which was once unthinkable even for Dems and now is a holy writ. Maybe someday Rachel Dolezal will be seen as a pioneer - a woman ahead of her time rather than the punchline of a joke. It is perhaps inevitable given the ideological framework that trans-racialism is possible and will someday be accepted. In the godless universe of Leftism, the Self sits at the center of the universe and everything else must give way to the Self.
  39. “The truth is that sets of DNA markers cannot tell us who we really are because genetic data is technical and identity is social.”

    So, how would this work in explaining black dominance in the NFL and NBA? Both are very elite “social” organizations from which the members clearly take their “identities”. But wouldn’t genetic data tells us who has the best shot at getting in?

  40. Does Mike Tirico realize that Italian Americans were not considered Whites until shortly before he was born?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Tirico#Personal_life

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    Does Mike Tirico realize that Italian Americans were not considered Whites until shortly before he was born?

     

    Tell that to the Taliaferros of Virginia and elsewhere.

    Taliaferro is also anglicized as Tolliver or Toliver.

    The internet says Taliaferro means iron cutter in Italian.

    The Wogs begin at Calais, though!
    , @njguy73

    Does Mike Tirico realize that Italian Americans were not considered Whites until shortly before he was born?
     
    Yes, I remember reading about how Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin weren't allowed to sleep at certain hotels...

    ,..no, wait, that was Sammy Davis, Jr. No, he was excluded for being Jewish, just like Joey Bishop was...

    ...OK, can someone help me out here?
  41. Race Is The Whole Ball Of Wax

    Sam Huntington of Harvard put it this way:

    Would America be the America it is today if in the 17th and 18th centuries it had been settled not by British Protestants but by French, Spanish, or Portuguese Catholics? The answer is no. It would not be America; it would be Quebec, Mexico, or Brazil.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Are_We%3F_The_Challenges_to_America%27s_National_Identity

    British Protestant Settler State or European Christian nation — Both can be right to describe the Unites States of America.

  42. A website full of people who say that Jews can’t be White is ridiculing a fictional character who can’t see that his ‘son’ is obviously not his son?

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    Where's the ridicule?
    , @ic1000
    > A website full of people who say that Jews can’t be White ...

    Can you provide a link to this website? I should be able to put together some information that helps these people become better informed.

    Only part of "identity" involves genetics; see Alfa158's comment, above. But as far as DNA goes, Principal Component Analysis, or PCA, is a very useful tool. You (and the people at that website) can see an example showing the relatedness of the major 'continental' races at one of Steve's posts from yesterday, here. "Whites" or "Caucasians" are the grouping in the upper left corner, with the labels "Europe", "Middle East", and "Central Asia".

    Ashkenazi Jews would form a loose cluster within the "Europe" dots. Sephardim would be shifted towards "Middle East."

    There are influential, well-off Jewish leaders who see "whiteness" as an entirely cultural construct, and proclaim their abhorrence of 'legacy' American society by choosing to self-identify as non-white. Here is one such (again, link is to Steve's archives).

  43. @anony-mouse
    A website full of people who say that Jews can't be White is ridiculing a fictional character who can't see that his 'son' is obviously not his son?

    Where’s the ridicule?

  44. @D. K.
    Does Mike Tirico realize that Italian Americans were not considered Whites until shortly before he was born?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Tirico#Personal_life

    Does Mike Tirico realize that Italian Americans were not considered Whites until shortly before he was born?

    Tell that to the Taliaferros of Virginia and elsewhere.

    Taliaferro is also anglicized as Tolliver or Toliver.

    The internet says Taliaferro means iron cutter in Italian.

    The Wogs begin at Calais, though!

    • Replies: @Roger Bigod
    Of all my relatives, the one who arguably made the most out of his opportunities and gifts was Booker Taliaferro Washington. AFAIK he never stated the identity of his father, but there was a Taliaferro family in the neighborhood where he was born and he retained the name.

    The common ancestor was Katherine Banks Royal Isham of 17th Cent. VA.. so I effectively zero DNA
    in common with him. Still, good on you Booker T.
  45. @Anonymous

    There are probably other cases, such as adoptions and cuckoo’s eggs, where somebody couldn’t legally qualify for tribal membership but would have a decent claim for genetic relationship.
     
    Or take Jews, for example. Is someone who can matrilinearly trace his ancestry back through 7 generations of atheist or agnostic mothers and grandmothers to a Jewish great etc grandmother a Jew? How about someone born to a Jewish father and Christian mother?

    How about someone born to a Jewish father and Christian mother?

    Or take Muslims, for that matter–say someone born to a Muslim father and a Christian mother?

    I believe Muslims see paternity as definitive, while Jews see maternity as such.

  46. I’m looking at your “King of the Hill” picture and wondering which of those characters would read and comment at unz.com.

    • Replies: @mmack
    Boomhauer, he posts under Tiny Duck, knowwhutImsayinman?
    , @BenKenobi
    Are you kidding?
    Hank (Buffalo Joe, Autochton)
    Dale (Blair Mountain, Pewitt)
    Boomhauer (Jenner Ickham, Achmed E.)
    Khan (Twinkie)
    Peggy (Rosie, Anon 257)
    Bill (TD)
  47. @Alfa158
    That’s a tough question to answer and there is no consensus.
    According to the NYT writer Nelson your identity is external, it is defined as being of whichever group accepts you as one of them:
    “To be Native American is to be a member of a tribal community and recognized by that community as such.”
    Since Indians don’t recognize Warren as a member of that community, then according to Nelson, it doesn’t matter what her DNA shows, she is not Indian.
    Some people define your identity as who you think you are. That may be true to the extent of self identification of what kind of a person you are, what your beliefs, ambitions, politics, ethics, make you.
    When it comes to race and ethnicity however I think the majority of people reject that and accept the genetic definition. Rachel Dolezal identified as Black, larped as Black and was accepted by the Black community which assumed she had some tiny component of African ancestry. When it was revealed that she didn’t, the Black community cast her into the wilderness and she was forbidden from continuing to larp as Black. Almost all Chinese believe you are Chinese regardless of where you were born and how you identify. If you are Chinese and working in a military or technological position the PLA intelligence services will regard you as Chinese and determine if you can be persuaded to provide information as your duty to your people.
    I look North African, my DNA is majority Italian with another large component of Caucasian, which covers a huge block of territory from the up through the Caucuses and across through Mesopotamia, and a smattering of European Jewish and Iberian. Although I’m not particularly White looking, my ancient green card lists me as a White, everybody has always treated me as White and I self identify as such.
    So, I don’t know, it all sounds like your identity comes down to a weighted score of genetics, self identity and how communities identity you?

    So, I don’t know, it all sounds like your identity comes down to a weighted score of genetics, self identity and how communities identity you?

    This is much too nuanced an approach. Leftist battles must be fought in black and white terms – are you a Good Person or a Bad Person? Bad people believe that there is a genetic component to race. Good people know that race has NOTHING to do with DNA.

    The self-identity vs how people see you thing is a conundrum for Leftists – OTOH, they insist that gender identity (which also has nothing to do with DNA) is based strictly on self-definition. Race is also supposed to be based on self-definition and yet Rachel Dolezal was seen as a bridge too far. Maybe this is only a question of time and the shifting of the Overton Window, like gay marriage which was once unthinkable even for Dems and now is a holy writ. Maybe someday Rachel Dolezal will be seen as a pioneer – a woman ahead of her time rather than the punchline of a joke. It is perhaps inevitable given the ideological framework that trans-racialism is possible and will someday be accepted. In the godless universe of Leftism, the Self sits at the center of the universe and everything else must give way to the Self.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    No, this will never happen for the same reason Pete Rose will never be in the Hall of Fame - class.
    , @Jefferson
    " Bad people believe that there is a genetic component to race. Good people know that race has NOTHING to do with DNA."

    "Good People" a.k.a Leftists believe there is a genetic component to race as well which is why they believe Elizabeth Warren with her extremely minuscule Indigenous DNA is just as equally Amerindian as someone from the Amazon rainforest. The Left of today are huge supporters of the racist one drop rule that says small Nonwhite ancestry overrides majority White ancestry everytime.
  48. I just finished “Ancestral Journeys” by Jean Manco. This is a up to the minute account of the peopling of Europe. It is heavy with linguistics, genetics and geography. But there are compensations. I found that those red haired tartan wearing mummies they found in the Tarim Basin were of the Y-DNA R1a1a haplotype. That’s my haplotype or so 23and me tells me. So I’m Chinese if I feel like it.

    That my friend is identity.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Cortes
    The notion that some young guy and his adherents, sick of the latest of a series of monumental SNAFUS by the big Chief, on hearing the Chief deciide that the way to go is East, shout out their “Fare Thee Wells” and wheel the horses around and head West, has always appealed to me.

    On DNA testing, isn’t there a huge element of “giving the customer what s/he wants”? I mean, people send in $X as an individual, and you think, “Hey, let’s make his trip to the bar on Saturday more interesting. I see him as about 2.1% Amerindian with a dash 0.21% of Berber. Whaddaya think, Gary?” Obviously if the enquiry is from a legal or medical source you’ll want to be a little more ethical. And shouldn’t more than one lab be consulted?
  49. @Jack D

    So, I don’t know, it all sounds like your identity comes down to a weighted score of genetics, self identity and how communities identity you?
     
    This is much too nuanced an approach. Leftist battles must be fought in black and white terms - are you a Good Person or a Bad Person? Bad people believe that there is a genetic component to race. Good people know that race has NOTHING to do with DNA.

    The self-identity vs how people see you thing is a conundrum for Leftists - OTOH, they insist that gender identity (which also has nothing to do with DNA) is based strictly on self-definition. Race is also supposed to be based on self-definition and yet Rachel Dolezal was seen as a bridge too far. Maybe this is only a question of time and the shifting of the Overton Window, like gay marriage which was once unthinkable even for Dems and now is a holy writ. Maybe someday Rachel Dolezal will be seen as a pioneer - a woman ahead of her time rather than the punchline of a joke. It is perhaps inevitable given the ideological framework that trans-racialism is possible and will someday be accepted. In the godless universe of Leftism, the Self sits at the center of the universe and everything else must give way to the Self.

    No, this will never happen for the same reason Pete Rose will never be in the Hall of Fame – class.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    See also Tonya Harding. She was a great skater but she came from the white lower class and the elites hate hate hated her guts because of it. Likewise Sarah Palin, Roseanne Barr, etc. The only way a white with a lower class background can be acceptable to the elites is if they become a flaming liberal to atone for their racial background.
  50. Somewhat Off Topic — Ancestry Is Everything

    Debt and Demography

    Monetary Policy And Mass Immigration

    White Core American Patriots Are On The March!

    Who Are We As A Nation? That Is The Sam Huntington Question.

    What Are We Fighting For As A Nation? Another Sam Huntington Question.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    Tucker Carlson may have a point; but couldn’t he say the same thing about the Republican Party (minus Trump and Buchanan)?

    The leadership of Republican Party has tended to have that mentality for decades (see the Reagan Amnesty, etc.).

    The Hart-Celler Act of 1965 passed with bipartisan majorities. Silent Cal said that the chief business of the American People is business, and that was back in the 1920s.

    The pot is calling the kettle black.
  51. Holy shit, this gets worse and worse. “Genetic data is technical and identity is social.” So my dog is not a dog; he is whatever he decides he is. And even though I am both genealogically and genetically “EnglishScandinavianJewish”, my DNA tells me little about my identity. Is this person in grade nine?

    • Replies: @Lot
    The best mix!

    http://cdn03.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2016/12/ivanka-trump-family-photo-holiday.jpg
  52. @Jack D

    So, I don’t know, it all sounds like your identity comes down to a weighted score of genetics, self identity and how communities identity you?
     
    This is much too nuanced an approach. Leftist battles must be fought in black and white terms - are you a Good Person or a Bad Person? Bad people believe that there is a genetic component to race. Good people know that race has NOTHING to do with DNA.

    The self-identity vs how people see you thing is a conundrum for Leftists - OTOH, they insist that gender identity (which also has nothing to do with DNA) is based strictly on self-definition. Race is also supposed to be based on self-definition and yet Rachel Dolezal was seen as a bridge too far. Maybe this is only a question of time and the shifting of the Overton Window, like gay marriage which was once unthinkable even for Dems and now is a holy writ. Maybe someday Rachel Dolezal will be seen as a pioneer - a woman ahead of her time rather than the punchline of a joke. It is perhaps inevitable given the ideological framework that trans-racialism is possible and will someday be accepted. In the godless universe of Leftism, the Self sits at the center of the universe and everything else must give way to the Self.

    ” Bad people believe that there is a genetic component to race. Good people know that race has NOTHING to do with DNA.”

    “Good People” a.k.a Leftists believe there is a genetic component to race as well which is why they believe Elizabeth Warren with her extremely minuscule Indigenous DNA is just as equally Amerindian as someone from the Amazon rainforest. The Left of today are huge supporters of the racist one drop rule that says small Nonwhite ancestry overrides majority White ancestry everytime.

  53. Many Conservatives on social media are saying that the modern day Left are bigger one drop rulers than the Nazis were in the 1940s. The 1940s Nazis believe having 3 Gentile grandparents made you a Gentile while The modern day Left believes having a Native American ancestor in your family tree when dinosaurs still walked the earth makes you a full fledged Native American.

  54. The Lying Eyes are winning. However it is framed or the lens, the iron law of disproportionate bad outcomes for genetic or socially constructed blacks is a near certainty. No one ever went broke betting against black. Realism, however race is defined. Posturing for the inevitable. Has anyone without a college education ever argued that race doesn’t exist?

  55. Peggy discovers Joseph is not Dales

    when she thought all along that Dale had a Jamaican grandmother

    http://www.tzr.io/yarn-clip/22e15c3b-5ee8-4679-bb99-0eeb22fd8571

  56. @Tyrion 2
    OT but NYT Opinion pieces can now be headlined by literal pronouncements of ethnic hatred.

    I Didn’t Hate the English — Until Now
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

    Cool.

    Obviously it is followed by one inane ad hominem, accusation of defamatory blood guilt and NPC political pronouncement after another.

    Weird stuff.

    It was Frau Merkel who forced Britain out of the EU. The Irish should direct their complaints to Berlin not London.

    I like the veiled threat of violence if the Irish border is closed. So apparently to prevent terrorism the British need to keep an open border with Syria?

    • LOL: Tyrion 2
  57. @Anonymous

    There are probably other cases, such as adoptions and cuckoo’s eggs, where somebody couldn’t legally qualify for tribal membership but would have a decent claim for genetic relationship.
     
    Or take Jews, for example. Is someone who can matrilinearly trace his ancestry back through 7 generations of atheist or agnostic mothers and grandmothers to a Jewish great etc grandmother a Jew? How about someone born to a Jewish father and Christian mother?

    “Or take Jews, for example. Is someone who can matrilinearly trace his ancestry back through 7 generations of atheist or agnostic mothers and grandmothers to a Jewish great etc grandmother a Jew? How about someone born to a Jewish father and Christian mother?”

    I think it was Gertrude Himmelfarb who observed that Jewishness is now defined by the Holocaust rather than Exodus. If Hitler would gas you for being a Jew, you’re a Jew.

    • Replies: @Lot
    I wonder if I'd be oven-worthy in Nazi Germany as a baptized and confirmed Christian who is half Ashkenazi and half Germanic. Probably not if a German/Italian citizen or in the occupied West. In the east, probably yes.
  58. @International Jew
    I'm looking at your "King of the Hill" picture and wondering which of those characters would read and comment at unz.com.

    Boomhauer, he posts under Tiny Duck, knowwhutImsayinman?

  59. Why am I not surprised at who is lecturing me?

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Thanks - you've saved me the trouble.
  60. @anony-mouse
    A website full of people who say that Jews can't be White is ridiculing a fictional character who can't see that his 'son' is obviously not his son?

    > A website full of people who say that Jews can’t be White …

    Can you provide a link to this website? I should be able to put together some information that helps these people become better informed.

    Only part of “identity” involves genetics; see Alfa158’s comment, above. But as far as DNA goes, Principal Component Analysis, or PCA, is a very useful tool. You (and the people at that website) can see an example showing the relatedness of the major ‘continental’ races at one of Steve’s posts from yesterday, here. “Whites” or “Caucasians” are the grouping in the upper left corner, with the labels “Europe”, “Middle East”, and “Central Asia”.

    Ashkenazi Jews would form a loose cluster within the “Europe” dots. Sephardim would be shifted towards “Middle East.”

    There are influential, well-off Jewish leaders who see “whiteness” as an entirely cultural construct, and proclaim their abhorrence of ‘legacy’ American society by choosing to self-identify as non-white. Here is one such (again, link is to Steve’s archives).

  61. @Pat Boyle
    I just finished "Ancestral Journeys" by Jean Manco. This is a up to the minute account of the peopling of Europe. It is heavy with linguistics, genetics and geography. But there are compensations. I found that those red haired tartan wearing mummies they found in the Tarim Basin were of the Y-DNA R1a1a haplotype. That's my haplotype or so 23and me tells me. So I'm Chinese if I feel like it.

    That my friend is identity.

    The notion that some young guy and his adherents, sick of the latest of a series of monumental SNAFUS by the big Chief, on hearing the Chief deciide that the way to go is East, shout out their “Fare Thee Wells” and wheel the horses around and head West, has always appealed to me.

    On DNA testing, isn’t there a huge element of “giving the customer what s/he wants”? I mean, people send in $X as an individual, and you think, “Hey, let’s make his trip to the bar on Saturday more interesting. I see him as about 2.1% Amerindian with a dash 0.21% of Berber. Whaddaya think, Gary?” Obviously if the enquiry is from a legal or medical source you’ll want to be a little more ethical. And shouldn’t more than one lab be consulted?

  62. For example, Honolulu preppy Barack Obama… had the DNA…

    Some parts of West Africa are closer to American cities than to African ones on the Indian Ocean.

    But Honolulu? That’s a long way from Nairobi, and I had look up which way was closer.

    Guess what– the Great Circle trip is shorter over the Kamchatka Peninsula, the Gobi Desert, and Kyrgyzstan than the one via the Western Hemisphere.

    Neither way crosses the United States.

  63. @Jim Don Bob
    Why am I not surprised at who is lecturing me?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/496406313224507392/P8U3xayD_400x400.jpeg

    Thanks – you’ve saved me the trouble.

  64. Now that their new favorite toy fails to produce a desired effect, they don’t want it any more. The paper of record, ladies and gentlemen.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  65. @Gandydancer
    "Or take Jews, for example. Is someone who can matrilinearly trace his ancestry back through 7 generations of atheist or agnostic mothers and grandmothers to a Jewish great etc grandmother a Jew? How about someone born to a Jewish father and Christian mother?"

    I think it was Gertrude Himmelfarb who observed that Jewishness is now defined by the Holocaust rather than Exodus. If Hitler would gas you for being a Jew, you're a Jew.

    I wonder if I’d be oven-worthy in Nazi Germany as a baptized and confirmed Christian who is half Ashkenazi and half Germanic. Probably not if a German/Italian citizen or in the occupied West. In the east, probably yes.

  66. @AngloBerserkerJew
    Holy shit, this gets worse and worse. "Genetic data is technical and identity is social." So my dog is not a dog; he is whatever he decides he is. And even though I am both genealogically and genetically "EnglishScandinavianJewish", my DNA tells me little about my identity. Is this person in grade nine?

    The best mix!

    • Replies: @DFH
    Ultra-Globalism is the best result for you? Letting the mask slip a little there
    , @AngloBerserkerJew
    True dat.
  67. For example, Honolulu preppy Barack Obama may well have had less “lived experience” while growing up of being an African American than did Rachel Dolezal, who grew up with black (adopted) siblings.

    That’s an interesting take and brings up a question: Was Michelle Obama the first black person Barak ever lived with? You’ve mentioned that his friends in college were mostly rich Pakis but is there any mention in his autobiographies (or any independent research) that gives evidence of any black roommates? It would be pretty incredible if a large percentage of whites had more “black experience” growing up and in college than the first black (not counting Bill Clinton) president.

  68. @Charles Pewitt
    Somewhat Off Topic -- Ancestry Is Everything

    Debt and Demography

    Monetary Policy And Mass Immigration

    White Core American Patriots Are On The March!

    Who Are We As A Nation? That Is The Sam Huntington Question.

    What Are We Fighting For As A Nation? Another Sam Huntington Question.

    https://twitter.com/westland_will/status/1052809819822780416

    Tucker Carlson may have a point; but couldn’t he say the same thing about the Republican Party (minus Trump and Buchanan)?

    The leadership of Republican Party has tended to have that mentality for decades (see the Reagan Amnesty, etc.).

    The Hart-Celler Act of 1965 passed with bipartisan majorities. Silent Cal said that the chief business of the American People is business, and that was back in the 1920s.

    The pot is calling the kettle black.

    • Agree: Thea
  69. @D. K.
    Does Mike Tirico realize that Italian Americans were not considered Whites until shortly before he was born?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Tirico#Personal_life

    Does Mike Tirico realize that Italian Americans were not considered Whites until shortly before he was born?

    Yes, I remember reading about how Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin weren’t allowed to sleep at certain hotels…

    ,..no, wait, that was Sammy Davis, Jr. No, he was excluded for being Jewish, just like Joey Bishop was…

    …OK, can someone help me out here?

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    My family’s immigration documentation starting from when the first of us arrived in the 1920’s classified us as White. The first large wave of Italian immigrants were the ones who emigrated to Louisiana after the Civil War to work in the sugar cane fields because freed slaves wouldn’t do it anymore. They were not subject to Jim Crow.
    So when was this Mike Tirico born, 1492?
  70. @Tyrion 2
    OT but NYT Opinion pieces can now be headlined by literal pronouncements of ethnic hatred.

    I Didn’t Hate the English — Until Now
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

    Cool.

    Obviously it is followed by one inane ad hominem, accusation of defamatory blood guilt and NPC political pronouncement after another.

    Weird stuff.

    Ms. Nolan didn’t come up with the title.

    And the contents of the article aren’t “ad hominem”. The British elites really did do horrible things during their misrule of Ireland.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2

    And the contents of the article aren’t “ad hominem”. The British elites really did do horrible things during their misrule of Ireland.
     
    The English who she hates today didn't.
  71. I predicted that this Elizabeth Warren episode would deal a fatal blow to the cachet of DNA tests, but unlike the majority here I actually believe that would be a good thing.

    The average American, even if he accepts her test and its interpretation at face value (which he shouldn’t, but that’s another story), is going to look at all this and think to himself, “I don’t care what Warren’s blood test says. She looks pretty darn White to me.” Then, the fact that she may have gamed the Affirmative Action system to get to her current position is going to radically reduce any remaining respect for that institution, as well.

    It’s all falling apart and the Left really has shot itself in the foot for the long term, only not in the way that HBDers imagine. There will soon be an unignorable buildup of popular pressure from below to just stop all the racial game-playing already. People will have had enough of the preachy posturing and the spoils system. The new attitude will be, I don’t care where your parents came from. Just shut up and do your job. The idea that somebody should actually be given preferential treatment because they’re a “racial minority” already seems quaint and absurd to most people under the age of 40. They don’t even want to argue about it anymore, they just want it to go away and let them get on with their lives.

    When the racial spoils game no longer rewards the players, the game will be dropped. The laws will go unenforced and corporate HR departments will stop serving as the executioners of the diversity mandate. The curtain is lowering on this 50-year-old social obsession. Elizabeth Warren may be the catalyst that finally sends it into the night.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    There is a lot of bureaucratic inertia: https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-identity-politics-harming-sciences-15826.html
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    The concepts of discriminatory ‘disparate impact’ due to the ‘legacy of racism’ against historical ‘visible minorities’ will never go away—no DNA tests needed. There will always be an angry underclass of NAMs along with resentful others eternally trying to exploit that anger as a weapon against ‘white patriarchy.’

    There are solutions to the conflict, but they won’t be very cordial.
    , @Iberiano
    You are inferring the converse from the conclusion drawn from Warren's DNA debacle. It's the other way around--DNA tests absolutely are a good measure of someone's race, or ethnicity (even NA ancestry). Had Warren actually had a mother, or grandmother, or even great-grandmother who was Cherokee, it would have showed up on the test, anywhere from .50 to 1/16th, and it routinely does for people who take such tests, for varying race or ethnicity being determined.

    If Warren's test had shown her at 25 percent, it would prove she was recognizably Indian and the matter would be closed. It did not show her at that amount, not because a test could not be that relatively precise, but because she actually isn't a quarter Indian, or Indian at all.

    Never mind the admixture of every day blacks (or NAs for that matter), take an African with a white spouse, their children will be approximately 50 percent European (assuming the spouse is roughly full Euro). Every single time. In fact, based upon the totality of looks, you can almost guess the percentage correctly. I would have guessed that Odumbo was about 40 percent black--and I bet if you tested his father (yes, the real one--FMD), you'd find he is about 80 percent roughly. Look at his pic. Look at Odumbo's. I'd wager Halle Berry is approximately 25-30 percent sub-Saharan African, 60 percent Euro and possibly, 10 percent other.
  72. @Intelligent Dasein
    I predicted that this Elizabeth Warren episode would deal a fatal blow to the cachet of DNA tests, but unlike the majority here I actually believe that would be a good thing.

    The average American, even if he accepts her test and its interpretation at face value (which he shouldn't, but that's another story), is going to look at all this and think to himself, "I don't care what Warren's blood test says. She looks pretty darn White to me." Then, the fact that she may have gamed the Affirmative Action system to get to her current position is going to radically reduce any remaining respect for that institution, as well.

    It's all falling apart and the Left really has shot itself in the foot for the long term, only not in the way that HBDers imagine. There will soon be an unignorable buildup of popular pressure from below to just stop all the racial game-playing already. People will have had enough of the preachy posturing and the spoils system. The new attitude will be, I don't care where your parents came from. Just shut up and do your job. The idea that somebody should actually be given preferential treatment because they're a "racial minority" already seems quaint and absurd to most people under the age of 40. They don't even want to argue about it anymore, they just want it to go away and let them get on with their lives.

    When the racial spoils game no longer rewards the players, the game will be dropped. The laws will go unenforced and corporate HR departments will stop serving as the executioners of the diversity mandate. The curtain is lowering on this 50-year-old social obsession. Elizabeth Warren may be the catalyst that finally sends it into the night.
  73. @Intelligent Dasein
    I predicted that this Elizabeth Warren episode would deal a fatal blow to the cachet of DNA tests, but unlike the majority here I actually believe that would be a good thing.

    The average American, even if he accepts her test and its interpretation at face value (which he shouldn't, but that's another story), is going to look at all this and think to himself, "I don't care what Warren's blood test says. She looks pretty darn White to me." Then, the fact that she may have gamed the Affirmative Action system to get to her current position is going to radically reduce any remaining respect for that institution, as well.

    It's all falling apart and the Left really has shot itself in the foot for the long term, only not in the way that HBDers imagine. There will soon be an unignorable buildup of popular pressure from below to just stop all the racial game-playing already. People will have had enough of the preachy posturing and the spoils system. The new attitude will be, I don't care where your parents came from. Just shut up and do your job. The idea that somebody should actually be given preferential treatment because they're a "racial minority" already seems quaint and absurd to most people under the age of 40. They don't even want to argue about it anymore, they just want it to go away and let them get on with their lives.

    When the racial spoils game no longer rewards the players, the game will be dropped. The laws will go unenforced and corporate HR departments will stop serving as the executioners of the diversity mandate. The curtain is lowering on this 50-year-old social obsession. Elizabeth Warren may be the catalyst that finally sends it into the night.

    The concepts of discriminatory ‘disparate impact’ due to the ‘legacy of racism’ against historical ‘visible minorities’ will never go away—no DNA tests needed. There will always be an angry underclass of NAMs along with resentful others eternally trying to exploit that anger as a weapon against ‘white patriarchy.’

    There are solutions to the conflict, but they won’t be very cordial.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @megabar
    > The concepts of discriminatory ‘disparate impact’ due to the ‘legacy of racism’ against historical ‘visible minorities’ will never go away—no DNA tests needed.

    Yes, the current position of the left is unassailable by logic alone. You can't disprove unconscious bias and systemic racism. You can't prove that academic achievement is mainly a result of genetic endowments. And inequality of outcome will persist. Those are the only things needed to support mass immigration, for example.

    People need to be willing to consider the possibility of differences in genetic traits across groups. I wonder what fraction of Americans would admit it, given privacy and a truth serum.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    The concepts of discriminatory ‘disparate impact’ due to the ‘legacy of racism’ against historical ‘visible minorities’ will never go away...
     
    ...unless the subject is firearm sales and permits. Then,


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA
  74. @Lot
    The best mix!

    http://cdn03.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2016/12/ivanka-trump-family-photo-holiday.jpg

    Ultra-Globalism is the best result for you? Letting the mask slip a little there

  75. @Not Raul
    Ms. Nolan didn’t come up with the title.

    And the contents of the article aren’t “ad hominem”. The British elites really did do horrible things during their misrule of Ireland.

    And the contents of the article aren’t “ad hominem”. The British elites really did do horrible things during their misrule of Ireland.

    The English who she hates today didn’t.

    • Agree: jim jones
  76. @International Jew
    I'm looking at your "King of the Hill" picture and wondering which of those characters would read and comment at unz.com.

    Are you kidding?
    Hank (Buffalo Joe, Autochton)
    Dale (Blair Mountain, Pewitt)
    Boomhauer (Jenner Ickham, Achmed E.)
    Khan (Twinkie)
    Peggy (Rosie, Anon 257)
    Bill (TD)

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    No, Twinkie is better as Grandpa (military service, can identify different kinds of Asiatics, notable height).
    Donut is Boomhower but fo' real tho.
    ... yeah Pewitt is Dale, the rest is good.
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    tellyouwhatman that’s airtight dang ol’ gotmelaughinghereman
    , @International Jew
    Dale = Whiskey
  77. OT Hey, remember how the actual explanation offered in total seriousness for there being no white genocide in South Africa was because there is a simply massive amount of explosively violent crime?
    Now the South African government is trying to make it harder for white people to legally own guns. But, remember, you Nazis, there’s a massive amount of violent crime! So it’s not like … yeah.

    Self defense to be removed as a reason to own firearms, section 13 and 14 licenses will need to be handed in.

    If this proposed law passes, people who are currently licensed legal gun owners will have to start the process all over again, this time I guess claiming to be hunters.
    https://www.politicsweb.co.za/politics/saps-are-attempting-to-remove-self-defence-as-a-re

  78. @BenKenobi
    Are you kidding?
    Hank (Buffalo Joe, Autochton)
    Dale (Blair Mountain, Pewitt)
    Boomhauer (Jenner Ickham, Achmed E.)
    Khan (Twinkie)
    Peggy (Rosie, Anon 257)
    Bill (TD)

    No, Twinkie is better as Grandpa (military service, can identify different kinds of Asiatics, notable height).
    Donut is Boomhower but fo’ real tho.
    … yeah Pewitt is Dale, the rest is good.

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    Cotton Hill killed fitty men. Okinawa AND Munich.

    Twinkie once shared a C-130 with an Operator who once rode horseback next to a Northern Alliance lieutenant who killed fitty men (who were actually prisoners).

  79. A good friend of mine in high school was clearly FBI (Full Blooded Indian as he liked to say) and whose nickname was, unimaginatively and predictably, “Chief.” But he was adopted and couldn’t prove it. He tried unsuccessfully for years to get access to his adoption records for financial aid purposes but to no avail. Sadly, he fell into alcoholism by his early 20’s. He’s sober now but he lost almost 10 years.

  80. @Aeoli Pera
    " The truth is that sets of DNA markers cannot tell us who we really are because genetic data is technical and identity is social. "

    I.e. I don't understand technical stuff but I still have strong opinions, therefore identity is something I understand, and I understand social things, therefore identity is social.

    > The truth is that sets of DNA markers cannot tell us who we really are because genetic data is technical and identity is social

    Yet, social is partly genetic (and thus “technical”).

    I think many well-meaning liberals would adjust their stances on some important issues, if they understood how meaningful genetics are in almost everything we do — and that the genes vary between different ethnicities and classes of people.

    That is, even though most liberals admit that the blank slate is false, they still largely act and vote as though it were true.

  81. OK then, from now on when we are asked to check the ‘race’ box on any form, like college application, we should check the race we identify with, since DNA is meaningless.

  82. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    The concepts of discriminatory ‘disparate impact’ due to the ‘legacy of racism’ against historical ‘visible minorities’ will never go away—no DNA tests needed. There will always be an angry underclass of NAMs along with resentful others eternally trying to exploit that anger as a weapon against ‘white patriarchy.’

    There are solutions to the conflict, but they won’t be very cordial.

    > The concepts of discriminatory ‘disparate impact’ due to the ‘legacy of racism’ against historical ‘visible minorities’ will never go away—no DNA tests needed.

    Yes, the current position of the left is unassailable by logic alone. You can’t disprove unconscious bias and systemic racism. You can’t prove that academic achievement is mainly a result of genetic endowments. And inequality of outcome will persist. Those are the only things needed to support mass immigration, for example.

    People need to be willing to consider the possibility of differences in genetic traits across groups. I wonder what fraction of Americans would admit it, given privacy and a truth serum.

  83. @Tyrion 2
    OT but NYT Opinion pieces can now be headlined by literal pronouncements of ethnic hatred.

    I Didn’t Hate the English — Until Now
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

    Cool.

    Obviously it is followed by one inane ad hominem, accusation of defamatory blood guilt and NPC political pronouncement after another.

    Weird stuff.

    Her animosity seems to actually stem from dislike of Euroscepticsm and the Conservatives, not anything to do with the Irish Question.

  84. @Aeoli Pera
    " The truth is that sets of DNA markers cannot tell us who we really are because genetic data is technical and identity is social. "

    I.e. I don't understand technical stuff but I still have strong opinions, therefore identity is something I understand, and I understand social things, therefore identity is social.

    Too true (for the comfort of those who push this nonsense).

  85. @FO337
    The NYT doesn't give a flying F about the English or the Irish, except to whatever extent 'control' of those countries can further their tribal objectives. What they do care about--and likely what they're fomenting at your link (I don't click on NYT stories) --is more of their patented dīvide et imperā campaign against white people everywhere and anywhere. Whispering in anyone's ears who'll listen that "white people are evil and 1) you don't want to be counted among them and 2) they hate you too! Just look at this old classified ad from 1858! It proves what we're saying!"

    The NYT doesn’t give a flying F about the English or the Irish, except to whatever extent ‘control’ of those countries can further their tribal objectives.

    What are the tribal objectives for the owner-jockey who traded his family’s camel for a burro?

  86. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    The concepts of discriminatory ‘disparate impact’ due to the ‘legacy of racism’ against historical ‘visible minorities’ will never go away—no DNA tests needed. There will always be an angry underclass of NAMs along with resentful others eternally trying to exploit that anger as a weapon against ‘white patriarchy.’

    There are solutions to the conflict, but they won’t be very cordial.

    The concepts of discriminatory ‘disparate impact’ due to the ‘legacy of racism’ against historical ‘visible minorities’ will never go away…

    …unless the subject is firearm sales and permits. Then,

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Racial ‘disparate impact theory’ could be arbitraged in may-issue states against cities that refuse to issue carry permits to civilian residents while allowing permit-holding civilians from surrounding permissive (whiter) towns to carry in the aforementioned cities, but …

    Definitely better to wait until Congress+SCOTUS does more to uphold 2A. Concealed Carry Reciprocity will nullify de facto carry bans in all jurisdictions.
  87. @BenKenobi
    Are you kidding?
    Hank (Buffalo Joe, Autochton)
    Dale (Blair Mountain, Pewitt)
    Boomhauer (Jenner Ickham, Achmed E.)
    Khan (Twinkie)
    Peggy (Rosie, Anon 257)
    Bill (TD)

    tellyouwhatman that’s airtight dang ol’ gotmelaughinghereman

  88. @njguy73

    Does Mike Tirico realize that Italian Americans were not considered Whites until shortly before he was born?
     
    Yes, I remember reading about how Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin weren't allowed to sleep at certain hotels...

    ,..no, wait, that was Sammy Davis, Jr. No, he was excluded for being Jewish, just like Joey Bishop was...

    ...OK, can someone help me out here?

    My family’s immigration documentation starting from when the first of us arrived in the 1920’s classified us as White. The first large wave of Italian immigrants were the ones who emigrated to Louisiana after the Civil War to work in the sugar cane fields because freed slaves wouldn’t do it anymore. They were not subject to Jim Crow.
    So when was this Mike Tirico born, 1492?

    • Replies: @njguy73
    Yes, I'm aware of all that. I was being sarcastic. Just like when people claim that the Irish or the Jews "became White," I know I'm dealing with an ignoramus.

    And this Tirico guy was born in 1966. In 2017 he told theroot.com with regard to his ancestry:

    Yeah, I’d like to find out the truth at some point, so I can answer questions for my kids. But me? I’m living, I’m working, I’m leading an upstanding life. I don’t worry about it.

     

    The Root thinks otherwise. To them, he's so Black he goes to funerals naked.
  89. @Desiderius
    Steve,

    Curious for your thoughts on First Man. Seems like another example of heightened liberal anxiety if not full mental breakdown.

    It starts out like it’s going to be a Mad Men for grown-ups with cool special effects before deteriorating into Ordinary People with cool special effects and egregious swipes at Buzz Aldrin.

    Bold choice to cast Victoria Bissell Brown as Armstrong’s wife.

    Your good friend Johnny Pod’s review:

    https://www.weeklystandard.com/john-podhoretz/ryan-goslings-first-man-review-one-giant-flop-for-moviekind?itm_campaign=dy_rec&itm_medium=widget&itm_source=article&itm_content=item

    Reads like something Steve might write. Maybe this might be a good occasion to bury the hatchet between you two somewhere other than your back this time.

    Probably best not to mention the guy playing Aldrin looked to be channeling the elder Podhoretz.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/05/01/the-book-that-scandalized-the-new-york-intellectuals

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    You demonstrate that certain themes are becoming so undeniable that they are showing up in the mainstream, not that Jonathan Podhoretz or Jonah Goldberg or Kurt Eichenwald or David Brooks or Max Boot or Max Blumenthal or Sam Harris or anyone like them are worth anything as an ally, nor that they would restrain themselves from changing their minds again as soon as it seemed beneficial.
  90. @Desiderius
    Your good friend Johnny Pod’s review:

    https://www.weeklystandard.com/john-podhoretz/ryan-goslings-first-man-review-one-giant-flop-for-moviekind?itm_campaign=dy_rec&itm_medium=widget&itm_source=article&itm_content=item

    Reads like something Steve might write. Maybe this might be a good occasion to bury the hatchet between you two somewhere other than your back this time.

    Probably best not to mention the guy playing Aldrin looked to be channeling the elder Podhoretz.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/05/01/the-book-that-scandalized-the-new-york-intellectuals

    You demonstrate that certain themes are becoming so undeniable that they are showing up in the mainstream, not that Jonathan Podhoretz or Jonah Goldberg or Kurt Eichenwald or David Brooks or Max Boot or Max Blumenthal or Sam Harris or anyone like them are worth anything as an ally, nor that they would restrain themselves from changing their minds again as soon as it seemed beneficial.

  91. Funniest take I’ve heard so far:

    Trump should hold a press conference and present an oversized check for 1/1024th of $1 million to the charity of Warren’s choice.

  92. To be Native American is to be a member of a tribal community and recognized by that community as such.

    Good point. It’s just a crazy coincidence that the Cherokee Nation’s assessment of Pocahontas tracks precisely with her DNA test results.

    NYT readers should remember to ignore the Cherokee Nation’s statement, because membership in a tribe is about tribal acceptance, except when the tribe doesn’t accept you, such as if you have a Y chromosome and want to be a woman, in which case it’s about self-identity, unless the tribe you want entrance into has been historically oppressed, such as an NAACP chapter being run by tan-skinned Rachel Dolezal, except when part of the tribe accepts you anyway on social media, such as Shaun King, unless you don’t vocally support Democratic party policies, in which case SHUT UP I HATE YOU BIGOT LIAR TRAITOR RAPE APOLOGIST UNCLE TOM

  93. @Anon
    The headline should read: "Ugh, Liz put her foot in her mouth again, so let's see how we can spin this and rescue her as our presidential pick, because we don't want a corrupt black like Corey Booker or Kamala Harris who will just turn the country into Detroit instead of bringing the socialist utopia, because let's face it, after Obama, we just don't trust blacks to be competent if he was the best they had to offer."

    No, it was his white half who let us down
    😉

  94. @Reg Cæsar

    The concepts of discriminatory ‘disparate impact’ due to the ‘legacy of racism’ against historical ‘visible minorities’ will never go away...
     
    ...unless the subject is firearm sales and permits. Then,


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA

    Racial ‘disparate impact theory’ could be arbitraged in may-issue states against cities that refuse to issue carry permits to civilian residents while allowing permit-holding civilians from surrounding permissive (whiter) towns to carry in the aforementioned cities, but …

    Definitely better to wait until Congress+SCOTUS does more to uphold 2A. Concealed Carry Reciprocity will nullify de facto carry bans in all jurisdictions.

  95. @Alfa158
    My family’s immigration documentation starting from when the first of us arrived in the 1920’s classified us as White. The first large wave of Italian immigrants were the ones who emigrated to Louisiana after the Civil War to work in the sugar cane fields because freed slaves wouldn’t do it anymore. They were not subject to Jim Crow.
    So when was this Mike Tirico born, 1492?

    Yes, I’m aware of all that. I was being sarcastic. Just like when people claim that the Irish or the Jews “became White,” I know I’m dealing with an ignoramus.

    And this Tirico guy was born in 1966. In 2017 he told theroot.com with regard to his ancestry:

    Yeah, I’d like to find out the truth at some point, so I can answer questions for my kids. But me? I’m living, I’m working, I’m leading an upstanding life. I don’t worry about it.

    The Root thinks otherwise. To them, he’s so Black he goes to funerals naked.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Mike Tirico likely has some family story that would be embarrassing for some loved one of his. Perhaps he knows all the family history by now and just doesn't want to discuss it with the media. Or maybe he's waiting until the older generation dies look into it to avoid hurting anyone.

    He seems like he's handled the situation with dignity.

  96. @George
    "technical and identity is social."

    That's why in the olden days religion was the basis of identity. And why E Micheal Jones thinks 'white identity' is bs and everyone should identify as Catholic. Orthodox Jews define themselves as a covenant with God and not genetically, although they are comparatively close genetically.

    I personally support any attempt Warren might have made to pass herself off as 'of Cherokee' ancestry to get a job at Harvard*. You go girl!!!! Her very vague DNA test results probably prove that the very vague statement 'of Cherokee ancestry' is very vaguely true.

    * Her actual CV shows her starting off at a #50 ranked Law School and working her way up the law school rankings as a professor, researcher and administrator. When she applied for full time work at Harvard she had already worked there. That's how a meritocracy works. If she didn't do all that she could have had at least 2 more 'White' children.

    Harvard is such a meritocracy. It’s full of professors who proved themselves at lesser schools.

  97. @Jefferson
    The Left used to be anti-one drop rule, but now The Left are pro-one drop rule atleast when it comes to Non Latinos and Non Arabs.

    The Left used to be free speech absolutists, now The Left are pro-censorship.

    The Left used to be anti-eugenics, now The Left is pro-eugenics especially when it comes to wanting to abort all Down Syndrome babies.

    The Left used to be anti-over population, now The Left is pro-over population because it results in open borders and more "diversity".

    Jefferson, all your “used to be”s can readily be qualified by “until we win.”

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  98. @BenKenobi
    Are you kidding?
    Hank (Buffalo Joe, Autochton)
    Dale (Blair Mountain, Pewitt)
    Boomhauer (Jenner Ickham, Achmed E.)
    Khan (Twinkie)
    Peggy (Rosie, Anon 257)
    Bill (TD)

    Dale = Whiskey

    • Agree: Intelligent Dasein
  99. @njguy73
    Yes, I'm aware of all that. I was being sarcastic. Just like when people claim that the Irish or the Jews "became White," I know I'm dealing with an ignoramus.

    And this Tirico guy was born in 1966. In 2017 he told theroot.com with regard to his ancestry:

    Yeah, I’d like to find out the truth at some point, so I can answer questions for my kids. But me? I’m living, I’m working, I’m leading an upstanding life. I don’t worry about it.

     

    The Root thinks otherwise. To them, he's so Black he goes to funerals naked.

    Mike Tirico likely has some family story that would be embarrassing for some loved one of his. Perhaps he knows all the family history by now and just doesn’t want to discuss it with the media. Or maybe he’s waiting until the older generation dies look into it to avoid hurting anyone.

    He seems like he’s handled the situation with dignity.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  100. @Intelligent Dasein
    I predicted that this Elizabeth Warren episode would deal a fatal blow to the cachet of DNA tests, but unlike the majority here I actually believe that would be a good thing.

    The average American, even if he accepts her test and its interpretation at face value (which he shouldn't, but that's another story), is going to look at all this and think to himself, "I don't care what Warren's blood test says. She looks pretty darn White to me." Then, the fact that she may have gamed the Affirmative Action system to get to her current position is going to radically reduce any remaining respect for that institution, as well.

    It's all falling apart and the Left really has shot itself in the foot for the long term, only not in the way that HBDers imagine. There will soon be an unignorable buildup of popular pressure from below to just stop all the racial game-playing already. People will have had enough of the preachy posturing and the spoils system. The new attitude will be, I don't care where your parents came from. Just shut up and do your job. The idea that somebody should actually be given preferential treatment because they're a "racial minority" already seems quaint and absurd to most people under the age of 40. They don't even want to argue about it anymore, they just want it to go away and let them get on with their lives.

    When the racial spoils game no longer rewards the players, the game will be dropped. The laws will go unenforced and corporate HR departments will stop serving as the executioners of the diversity mandate. The curtain is lowering on this 50-year-old social obsession. Elizabeth Warren may be the catalyst that finally sends it into the night.

    You are inferring the converse from the conclusion drawn from Warren’s DNA debacle. It’s the other way around–DNA tests absolutely are a good measure of someone’s race, or ethnicity (even NA ancestry). Had Warren actually had a mother, or grandmother, or even great-grandmother who was Cherokee, it would have showed up on the test, anywhere from .50 to 1/16th, and it routinely does for people who take such tests, for varying race or ethnicity being determined.

    If Warren’s test had shown her at 25 percent, it would prove she was recognizably Indian and the matter would be closed. It did not show her at that amount, not because a test could not be that relatively precise, but because she actually isn’t a quarter Indian, or Indian at all.

    Never mind the admixture of every day blacks (or NAs for that matter), take an African with a white spouse, their children will be approximately 50 percent European (assuming the spouse is roughly full Euro). Every single time. In fact, based upon the totality of looks, you can almost guess the percentage correctly. I would have guessed that Odumbo was about 40 percent black–and I bet if you tested his father (yes, the real one–FMD), you’d find he is about 80 percent roughly. Look at his pic. Look at Odumbo’s. I’d wager Halle Berry is approximately 25-30 percent sub-Saharan African, 60 percent Euro and possibly, 10 percent other.

    • Replies: @Alden
    I’ve seen Halle Berry a few times. In person she’s unmistakably black. You’d never think her Mother’s White
  101. @Charles Pewitt

    Does Mike Tirico realize that Italian Americans were not considered Whites until shortly before he was born?

     

    Tell that to the Taliaferros of Virginia and elsewhere.

    Taliaferro is also anglicized as Tolliver or Toliver.

    The internet says Taliaferro means iron cutter in Italian.

    The Wogs begin at Calais, though!

    Of all my relatives, the one who arguably made the most out of his opportunities and gifts was Booker Taliaferro Washington. AFAIK he never stated the identity of his father, but there was a Taliaferro family in the neighborhood where he was born and he retained the name.

    The common ancestor was Katherine Banks Royal Isham of 17th Cent. VA.. so I effectively zero DNA
    in common with him. Still, good on you Booker T.

  102. @J.Ross
    No, Twinkie is better as Grandpa (military service, can identify different kinds of Asiatics, notable height).
    Donut is Boomhower but fo' real tho.
    ... yeah Pewitt is Dale, the rest is good.

    Cotton Hill killed fitty men. Okinawa AND Munich.

    Twinkie once shared a C-130 with an Operator who once rode horseback next to a Northern Alliance lieutenant who killed fitty men (who were actually prisoners).

  103. @Iberiano
    You are inferring the converse from the conclusion drawn from Warren's DNA debacle. It's the other way around--DNA tests absolutely are a good measure of someone's race, or ethnicity (even NA ancestry). Had Warren actually had a mother, or grandmother, or even great-grandmother who was Cherokee, it would have showed up on the test, anywhere from .50 to 1/16th, and it routinely does for people who take such tests, for varying race or ethnicity being determined.

    If Warren's test had shown her at 25 percent, it would prove she was recognizably Indian and the matter would be closed. It did not show her at that amount, not because a test could not be that relatively precise, but because she actually isn't a quarter Indian, or Indian at all.

    Never mind the admixture of every day blacks (or NAs for that matter), take an African with a white spouse, their children will be approximately 50 percent European (assuming the spouse is roughly full Euro). Every single time. In fact, based upon the totality of looks, you can almost guess the percentage correctly. I would have guessed that Odumbo was about 40 percent black--and I bet if you tested his father (yes, the real one--FMD), you'd find he is about 80 percent roughly. Look at his pic. Look at Odumbo's. I'd wager Halle Berry is approximately 25-30 percent sub-Saharan African, 60 percent Euro and possibly, 10 percent other.

    I’ve seen Halle Berry a few times. In person she’s unmistakably black. You’d never think her Mother’s White

  104. @Lot
    The best mix!

    http://cdn03.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2016/12/ivanka-trump-family-photo-holiday.jpg

    True dat.

  105. @Desiderius
    No, this will never happen for the same reason Pete Rose will never be in the Hall of Fame - class.

    See also Tonya Harding. She was a great skater but she came from the white lower class and the elites hate hate hated her guts because of it. Likewise Sarah Palin, Roseanne Barr, etc. The only way a white with a lower class background can be acceptable to the elites is if they become a flaming liberal to atone for their racial background.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Right. And snobbery accounts for much of the hatred towards DJT. A President Jeb Bush would still get the usual crap from liberals, but it would be much less unhinged.

    The elites and the wannabes just can't believe that a vulgar orange-haired RE developer from Queens, who bangs models, who eats his steak well done with Ketchup, who doesn't owe anybody in DC, and who doesn't give a rat's ass what they think, is the President of the USA.
    , @Anonymous
    If she had come from prole whites but had behaved better, such as not getting mixed up in an effort to injure a competitor and having one of the first celebrity sex tapes put out , she would have avoided much of the rancor.

    And as far as her sex tape goes, pace Allen Konigsberg, the lighting was dreadful and she should have at least tied her hair up in back. Gilooly was bejingled and her thigh action was phenomenal, though.
  106. @Jack D
    See also Tonya Harding. She was a great skater but she came from the white lower class and the elites hate hate hated her guts because of it. Likewise Sarah Palin, Roseanne Barr, etc. The only way a white with a lower class background can be acceptable to the elites is if they become a flaming liberal to atone for their racial background.

    Right. And snobbery accounts for much of the hatred towards DJT. A President Jeb Bush would still get the usual crap from liberals, but it would be much less unhinged.

    The elites and the wannabes just can’t believe that a vulgar orange-haired RE developer from Queens, who bangs models, who eats his steak well done with Ketchup, who doesn’t owe anybody in DC, and who doesn’t give a rat’s ass what they think, is the President of the USA.

  107. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    See also Tonya Harding. She was a great skater but she came from the white lower class and the elites hate hate hated her guts because of it. Likewise Sarah Palin, Roseanne Barr, etc. The only way a white with a lower class background can be acceptable to the elites is if they become a flaming liberal to atone for their racial background.

    If she had come from prole whites but had behaved better, such as not getting mixed up in an effort to injure a competitor and having one of the first celebrity sex tapes put out , she would have avoided much of the rancor.

    And as far as her sex tape goes, pace Allen Konigsberg, the lighting was dreadful and she should have at least tied her hair up in back. Gilooly was bejingled and her thigh action was phenomenal, though.

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