The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
NYT: "None of Us Deserve Citizenship"
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

From the New York Times Opinion Page:

None of Us Deserve Citizenship
On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist, Dec. 21, 2018

Late last month, 19-year-old Maryury Elizabeth Serrano-Hernandez reportedly scaled a wall along the United States-Mexico border while eight months pregnant and gave birth within hours of placing her feet on American soil. …

Questions abound: Does Ms. Serrano-Hernandez’s baby son deserve citizenship because he was born here but not his 3-year-old sibling? Does everyone in the family deserve citizenship now that one member has been born here? Or does no one in the family deserve citizenship, even the baby, because the parents crossed the border illegally?

Answering these questions may be easy legally, but they’re more difficult morally. After all, none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

… “Home is not something I should have to earn,” he wrote. It’s something we all have a right to.

Many people will sympathize with Mr. Vargas’s story but recoil at his bold conclusion, as it seems to imply support for open borders — a position that no Republican or Democratic member of Congress supports or even takes seriously.

Nobody is in favor of open borders. We just hate everybody who is against open borders.

This reaction seems misplaced. The deeper question raised isn’t whether our borders should be open or closed (generally a false dichotomy) but rather how we ought to manage immigration in a manner that honors the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of all concerned.

Reaching for a radically more humane immigration system is not pie-in-the-sky, utopian dreaming. But it does require a certain measure of humility on the part of those of us who have benefited from birthright citizenship. Rather than viewing immigrants as seeking something that we, Americans, have a moral right to withhold from them, we ought to begin by acknowledging that none of us who were born here did anything to deserve our citizenship, and yet all of us — no matter where we were born — deserve compassion and basic human rights.

It’s tempting to imagine that our position as gatekeepers is morally sound — since we’re frequently reminded that “all nations have a right to defend their borders” — but our relationship to those who are fleeing poverty and violence is morally complex. Not only does birthright citizenship bestow upon us a privileged status that we haven’t earned; our nation’s unparalleled wealth and power, as well as our actual borders, lack a sturdy moral foundation. But for slavery, genocide and colonization, we would not be the wealthiest, most powerful nation in the world — in fact, our nation would not even exist. This is not hyperbole; it’s history. There’s good reason some Mexicans say: “We didn’t cross the border. The border crossed us.” That is, in fact, what happened.

Of course, it can be argued that virtually all modern nation-states were created through violence, exploitation and war. But we claim to be unlike most nation-states; indeed, we insist that we’re “exceptional.”

I feel some Statue of Liberty poem coming on …

We are the only nation that advertises itself as “a nation of immigrants” and the “land of the free,” an advertising campaign complete with a Statute of Liberty whose pedestal includes a plaque of a poem that reads in part:

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

The founders of our nation did not merely wax poetic about the virtues of liberty; our nation was birthed by a Declaration of Independence… If this is true, on what moral grounds can we greet immigrants with tear gas and lock them in for-profit detention camps, or build walls against the huddled masses yearning to breathe free? After all, what was Ms. Serrano-Hernandez doing if not pursuing life, liberty and happiness for herself and her family? Did she not display a level of courage, fortitude and determination to win freedom for herself and those she loved comparable to that of those who helped birth our nation?

Michelle Alexander became a New York Times columnist in 2018. She is a civil rights lawyer and advocate, legal scholar and author of “The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness.”

Who knew that Michelle Alexander would be the first NYT OpEd Columnist to go full Starship Troopers?

 
Hide 269 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. Michelle makes a good argument against birthright citizenship. For starters, let’s eliminate it for the children of non-Americans.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    Logically it is a weird argument from the Michelle, who appears to be a highly vanillaized "black" and whose--quick glance--oeuvre seems to be entirely black grievance.

    The basic black argument is "we blacks deserve all sorts of goodies because … slavery, Jim Crow, 'we built America without compensation'". It's particularistic, historic and depends highly on inheritance.

    Michelle here is instead parroting the Jewish argument: Jews (universalized to everyone for marketing purposes) are entitled to go anywhere and everywhere that seems ripe for their middle-man-minority shtick. No one is entitled to say "no". No one is entitled to their own nation with their own people. (Being stuck in the Pale with fellow Jews, and not being able to penetrate and exploit the rest of Russia--without conversion--was immoral, genocidal, particularly Hitlerish.)
    (It's quite a rapey ideology. No one can say no to us!)

    I guess Michelle knows who her paymasters are. Though--guessing--she probably isn't sharp enough to notice that the two arguments are logically at loggerheads. Though as Steve has pointed out the common "white man must bend over" element provides the warm emotional glow that keeps the fringes hanging together and outshines minor nits like logical incoherence.
  2. The four steps from Nazism to Enlightenment:

    1.) Only American citizens deserve American citizenship

    2.) No-one deserves American citizenship

    3.) All 7.5 billion people on Earth deserve American citizenship

    4.) Only non-American citizens deserve American citizenship

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @Anon7
    If only all of my reading material was this concise.
  3. I don’t know how you do it, Steve, reading these lies day-in and day-out without heading to NYC to give these people a piece of your mind. The lies are especially strong in this Miss Alexander. The Statue of Liberty as a an advertisement for immigration? (She also doesn’t mention that it didn’t come with a plaque with that stupid poem.) I can’t fix this stupidity without a long comment, but let me say that I’m outraged by Miss Alexander’s comparing some fat Mexican freeloading trespasser to the Founding Fathers who pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor.

    The worst thing is, is that this article is 5 days old. You’ve got 5 days of lies to sort through to catch up. Getter done.

    • Replies: @snorlax

    The Statue of Liberty as a an advertisement for immigration? (She also doesn’t mention that it didn’t come with a plaque with that stupid poem.)
     
    She also implies that it's a quote from "the founders of our nation." (Zeroth Amendment!)
    , @Forbes
    I'd have thought that Michelle Alexander, attorney-at-law, might have noticed that the question proffered regarding citizenship was accompanied by the narrative:

    scaled a wall along the United States-Mexico border
     
    denoting the crime of illegal entry to the US.

    Most attorneys recognize the principle that a perpetrator not benefit from their crime. The mother's presence as illegal--without permission--means subsequent actions are of a similar character. One might note that the children of diplomats born in the US are not granted birthright citizenship, as a condition of their permission to be in the US.

    Why should someone who has no permission to be present in the US be granted the privilege and immunity of citizenship? (Art. IV, Sec. 2)
  4. “There was living space for thirteen families! In this one house!”

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Yes, it's really the same thing. Do any of us DESERVE our property, any more than we DESERVE our citizenship? Zhivago inherited his family home - he did nothing to deserve it, so it was not wrong to force him to share it with 12 other families just as it is not wrong to force us to share the US with the entire population of Latin America. It's just some accident of birth that we were born on Magic Dirt and they were born on Tragic Dirt, just as it was an accident that Zhivago was born to a family of landed gentry and not as a serf. You just snip some wires on the fence and sneak under and viola, justice is restored. What could be simpler?
    , @Inquiring Mind
    And Sharif Ali served in the Red Army? Who knew?
  5. ‘None of us deserve our parents’.

    So, Mr Gates, if you are listening, where’s the million dollars I’m ‘entitled’ to by virtue of the fact that I’m here – and no other ‘justification’.

  6. No one is for open borders? What is the difference between her position and open borders? As far as I can tell, she believes that anyone who wanders in here is “entitled” to citizenship. That sounds like open borders to me.
    Let’s face it: this woman cannot think straight. She specializes in emotion-laden non-sequiters. But that is now the MO of female pundits in the op ed page of the NYTimes.

    • Replies: @midtown
    Agreed. In fact, by her logic, no one really needs to migrate. Simply vote in American elections from anywhere on the planet ... and of course collect welfare payments from American taxpayers where they live as well.
    , @Moses

    Let’s face it: this woman cannot think straight.
     
    Oh, she knows exactly what she is doing.
    , @Joseph Doaks
    And evidently a majority of female American voters agree with her.
    , @Jack Armstrong

    “Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
     
    Let’s interrogate this passage of the text. I read this metaphor as pro-borders; the lamp shows the way but it also allows Miss Liberty to see who’s there. A door can only be read as pro-border and pro-wall, doors can be open or closed, even barricaded, and a door doesn’t stand alone. If there was no wall one wouldn’t need a door. Surely those on Ellis Island awaiting legal admission to the United States viewed the statue in the same manner, they knew there was no guarantee of admission merely by appearing at the golden door. Many forget that more people died at Ellis Island awaiting a decision than were lynched in the entire 20th century (U.S.A.).
  7. Michelle Alexander is a racial agit-prop writer, who argues that disparity of incarceration rates are the new version of slavery and segregation, and we won’t ever be truly equal unless races are incarcerated at equal rates.

    • Replies: @James N. Kennett

    Michelle Alexander is a racial agit-prop writer, who argues that disparity of incarceration rates are the new version of slavery and segregation, and we won’t ever be truly equal unless races are incarcerated at equal rates.
     
    Disparate impact means that the War on Drugs is really a war on blacks, and therefore must be stopped. By the same measure, the war on "deadbeat dads" is also a war on blacks, yet the NYT will not be calling for it to end. Because Intersectional Pokemon Points, or something.
    , @JimB

    Michelle Alexander is a racial agit-prop writer, who argues that disparity of incarceration rates are the new version of slavery and segregation, and we won’t ever be truly equal unless races are incarcerated at equal rates.
     
    How about a pilot project? Release non-white felons into society and every time one breaks the law, make a white liberal left wing sponsor pay the fine, serve the jail sentence, or go to the death chamber.
  8. “on what moral grounds ” Self interest + democracy.

    If you want to get high brow about the discussion, the question is what is or is not constitutional or perhaps is there a ‘natural right’ to immigrate.

    On an economic or even religious level, the question is if US foreign policy, aka imperialism, is propelling the need to immigrate. It is not obvious that Honduran domestic policy would change all that much if US foreign policy changed, but maybe Hillary did destroy the Honduran economy like she destroyed Libya.

    • Agree: Digital Samizdat
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    The “on what moral grounds ” question reminds me of conversations with five-year-old children where they keep asking "Why?"

    Those asking the question are not capable of understanding the answer, so there is nothing you can say that will satisfy them. Meanwhile, they think they are getting the better of you because they can keep asking.
    , @Jack D
    TBH, the places where we Invade the World are mostly not the same as the places where we Invite the World. Invade the World and Invite the World are each independently dumb ideas in their own right and don't need to be linked together to be considered dumb.

    Honduras has been a shitty place more or less forever and if the United States did not exist or if we had a completely isolationist foreign policy, it would still be a shitty place. In fact, if you look at the times and places in Latin America where American influence has been expelled (Cuba, Venezuela, etc.) things are even shittier without American "interference". AFAIK, Hillary did absolutely nothing to make Honduras even worse than it already was. She probably couldn't even find the place on a map. Not everything that is bad in the world is the fault of the US.
    , @bomag

    perhaps is there a ‘natural right’ to immigrate
     
    That would run up against the natural right of current residents to reserve the country and it's resources for present and future cohorts.
  9. I agree with Michelle Alexander that she does not deserve US citizenship, and that few if any New York Times opinion writers deserve US citizenship.

    • LOL: snorlax
    • Replies: @Dr. X

    I agree with Michelle Alexander that she does not deserve US citizenship
     
    The Supreme Court ruled exactly that in 1857...
  10. Falling total fertility rate should be welcomed, population expert says
    Figures showing declining birth rates are ‘cause for celebration’, not alarm

    “I believe that one of the reasons why Angela Merkel took the million refugees was because she desperately needed to boost her working population,” said Harper.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/26/falling-total-fertility-rate-should-be-welcomed-population-expert-says

    It does appear the number of employed persons in Germany has increased:
    https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/employed-persons

    • Replies: @Moses
    “I believe that one of the reasons why Angela Merkel took the million refugees was because she desperately needed to boost her working population,” said Harper.

    Erm...yeah about that. They don't work. They don't have skills. They collect a lot of benefits though. And free apartments.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4048268/Just-34-000-migrants-1-2million-arrive-Germany-two-years-work-government-reveals.html

    , @Stan d Mute

    It does appear the number of employed persons in Germany has increased:
     
    With a million new welfare dependents more Germans must work to support them..
    , @indocon
    Look at that 10 year chart, can you pin point 2014 on that?
    , @GermanReader2
    I read about a few months ago, that only abou 20 percent of the working age people that Merkel let in as refugees work (including part time jobs). Even if they all worked full-time in low paying jobs they would be a drain on German taxpayers and this does not include things like their high crime rate etc.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    Angela didn't need new workers in 2005, when Poland joined the EU. They kept Poles out over a 7 year interim period - only UK and Ireland took them straight away and a million Poles headed for England.
  11. By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist

    Who is Michelle Alexander?

    Biographical info on Michelle Alexander
    1964: marriage of Michelle Alexander’s White mother (Oregon origin) and Black father (Chicago); she characterizes her White mother’s family and church as having opposed the union
    1967: Michelle Alexander is born in Chicago
    1970s: spends a few years in a planned, “sustainable living” community in the Champaign-Urbana metro area (Stelle, Illinois). Family often on the move in later 1970s and early 1980s as father has job trouble. Winds up back in mother’s hometown in Oregon.
    c.1985: graduates from high school in Ashland, Oregon (Census 2010: 90% White, 1% Black); receives affirmative action scholarship to Vanderbilt (Gertrude Vanderbilt Minority Scholarship) arranged by a connection of Michelle’s White mother
    1989: graduates from Vanderbilt, majoring in Political Science
    1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    1992-1998: “worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies” — i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the “race hustle.” Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a “joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity”
    2010: publishes book, “The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness”
    2011: her first opinion column appears in New York Times. Never having come off the race-hustle gravy-train, the column opens:

    THE legal scholar Derrick A. Bell foresaw that mass incarceration, like earlier systems of racial control, would continue to exist…

    Michelle Alexander has had nine opinion columns published in the Times since 2011. As of Sept. 2018, she is a once-monthly opinion columnist. Her previous:

    The Newest Jim Crow
    Recent criminal justice reforms contain the seeds of a frightening system of “e-carceration.”

    By MICHELLE ALEXANDER / Nov. 9, 2018

    2016-Present: Visiting Professor of Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.

    But the question remains, “Is She Black Enough?”

    See Exhibit A:

    (Biographical info above mainly from an article on Michelle Alexander appearing in Vanderbilt Magazine, Dec. 2013)

    • Replies: @clyde
    Her craziness and societal sabotage all come from:
    That she looks like a decent enough looking white woman but with black skin and a self punishing/down for de struggle crew cut.
    Verdict is- Jealousy of white America but really she should blame her mother's bad choice of impregnator, and she likely does.
    Pathetic and another illustration why it is difficult for women to be thinkers, intellectuals.

    Obeying Steve's Law, that come de revolution men will worship at her feet and all white women will obey her, copy her hairstyle and fashion tips.

    , @Anon

    – 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    – 1992-1998: “worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies” — i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the “race hustle.” Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    – 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    – 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    – 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a “joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity”
     
    This is more evidence for my observation that black graduates (or half black in her case) of elite law programs wash out of the law within about five years. Mismatch, affirmative action, etc.

    In this case it was six years at a law firm, but the whole time as an associate. If you aren't offered partnership at the firm by then, then I think that they are using you as a glorified paralegal. And what was her job at the firm? "Fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies." Who was the client for that? Who was paying the billable hours? It turns out that it's a class action firm, ahem. So, in my opinion, class action firms are ambulance chasers who hold up big corporations, I'd guess probably on disparate impact grounds. Even so, no partnership offer, I'd reckon.

    Then she shows up at the ACLU and ends up in a not-really-law job, and then as a professor of law, a common destination of black graduates of elite law programs. Where are the black partners in white shoe firms? What on earth could be keeping them in these ghetto law jobs in academia, non-profits, general counsel positions, etc.?
    , @Anonym
    Nice work Hail.

    She is blacker than Rachel Dolezal I will give her that.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    Did the article say if her father left her mother, and how old she was at the time?
    , @bomag
    Thanks.

    Reminds me again of the race-hustle pipeline that flows through academia; law; and gov't agencies, such as:


    Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity
     
    Really? I'm guessing that's at least a 75% gov't funded enterprise.

    Her shtick amounts to manufactured moral posturing that justifies wealth transfer as long as her station isn't touched.
    , @Louis Renault
    “The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness”
    Wasn't Barack president when she wrote that? Well at least Trump did something about that, thanks to the Kardashians:
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-signs-criminal-justice-reform-bill

    I wonder how much impact Ms. Alexander had when talking to Trump about prison reform? She did meet with Trump about that, didn't she?????
    , @Jack D
    The ironic thing for Miss Blackety Black Black is that immigration especially hurts working class blacks because immigrants compete with them for low skilled jobs. But not for jobs as Race Hustlers so I guess it doesn't really affect her.
    , @oddsbodkins
    Ashland, Oregon is one of the zip codes identified as an out-of-touch bubble by Charles Murray. It is a slice of Berkeley dropped into the woods midway between SF and Portland.
    , @Hypnotoad666
    It is interesting that she did a "reverse OJ" on her NYT profile pic -- that is, she clearly blacked it up a bit.
  12. The Comanche would like to have a word with those Mexicans who claim “The border crossed us”. Also, the descendants of the Californianeros who hired mountain men to kick out the Mexican governor. The descendants of those who stayed on after the Texas War of Independenc. The descendants of those who stayed in El Norte after the war between the USA-Mexico 1846-1848….
    It’s not current American citizens fault that Latinos settled South of the current border thousands of years ago.
    Oh, and is Michelle Alexander, like George Forman’s trainer, “Glad my great-granddaddy caught that boat”?

  13. The bottom line is that Mexico and many other Latin-American countries are poor and disorderly because the people from these places are generally lazy, crooked, morally corrupt and have a penchant for Marxism/Neo-Marxism. Virtually all these places could have a decent standard of living if they played their cards right, but they had other priorities. Now I, according to the Jews of the NYT, have to sacrifice my standard of living because our brown friends to the south muffed it. Some places like Costa Rico and Urugray are livable. Let the others copy them.

  14. Anonymous[342] • Disclaimer says:

    After reading all that garbage verbiage, I am rather proud of my status as a ‘British Subject’ of Her Majesty the Queen, rather than a ‘citizen’ of the United Kingdom.

    Apparently, these little details irk some of those with republican instincts. More and more I can see the wisdom of the generations upon generations of British statesmen, legislators etc who framed the concepts of citizenry in the UK.

    If only that you can’t get sophistic dimwit liars to talk around the concept of ‘Subject’, as they tend to do with ‘Citizen’.

  15. @Hail

    By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist
     
    Who is Michelle Alexander?
    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/13/opinion/michelle-alexander/michelle-alexander-thumbLarge.jpg

    Biographical info on Michelle Alexander
    - 1964: marriage of Michelle Alexander's White mother (Oregon origin) and Black father (Chicago); she characterizes her White mother's family and church as having opposed the union
    - 1967: Michelle Alexander is born in Chicago
    - 1970s: spends a few years in a planned, "sustainable living" community in the Champaign-Urbana metro area (Stelle, Illinois). Family often on the move in later 1970s and early 1980s as father has job trouble. Winds up back in mother's hometown in Oregon.
    - c.1985: graduates from high school in Ashland, Oregon (Census 2010: 90% White, 1% Black); receives affirmative action scholarship to Vanderbilt (Gertrude Vanderbilt Minority Scholarship) arranged by a connection of Michelle's White mother
    - 1989: graduates from Vanderbilt, majoring in Political Science
    - 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    - 1992-1998: "worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies" -- i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the "race hustle." Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    - 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    - 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    - 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a "joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity"
    - 2010: publishes book, "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness"
    - 2011: her first opinion column appears in New York Times. Never having come off the race-hustle gravy-train, the column opens:

    THE legal scholar Derrick A. Bell foresaw that mass incarceration, like earlier systems of racial control, would continue to exist...
     
    Michelle Alexander has had nine opinion columns published in the Times since 2011. As of Sept. 2018, she is a once-monthly opinion columnist. Her previous:

    The Newest Jim Crow
    Recent criminal justice reforms contain the seeds of a frightening system of “e-carceration.”

    By MICHELLE ALEXANDER / Nov. 9, 2018
     
    - 2016-Present: Visiting Professor of Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.

    But the question remains, "Is She Black Enough?"

    See Exhibit A:

    https://images.c-span.org/Files/cf2/20170610201611002_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.576.no_border.width.1024.jpg

    (Biographical info above mainly from an article on Michelle Alexander appearing in Vanderbilt Magazine, Dec. 2013)

    Her craziness and societal sabotage all come from:
    That she looks like a decent enough looking white woman but with black skin and a self punishing/down for de struggle crew cut.
    Verdict is- Jealousy of white America but really she should blame her mother’s bad choice of impregnator, and she likely does.
    Pathetic and another illustration why it is difficult for women to be thinkers, intellectuals.

    Obeying Steve’s Law, that come de revolution men will worship at her feet and all white women will obey her, copy her hairstyle and fashion tips.

  16. The deeper question raised isn’t whether our borders should be open or closed (generally a false dichotomy) but rather how we ought to manage immigration in a manner that honors the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of all concerned.

    Just manage the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of the two or three billion people who’d like to immigrate to America. How hard can that be?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    What she says is true, but most non-Americans have ZERO legitimate interest in become Americans (any more than I have a legitimate interest in becoming Congolese) so when you plug the numbers into this equation the solution is probably not the one that Michelle has in mind.
  17. “Questions abound: Does Ms. Serrano-Hernandez’s baby son deserve citizenship because he was born here but not his 3-year-old sibling? Does everyone in the family deserve citizenship now that one member has been born here? Or does no one in the family deserve citizenship, even the baby, because the parents crossed the border illegally?”

    Response:

    1. No one in this line deserves citizenship.

    2. The immorality of the is that this woman broke the law and is now hiding behind the skirts of your moral emotional appeal — when she clearly has already demonstrated that neither morality nor the law of concern to her.

    I am more concerned about the morality of short changing one’s fellow citizens merely to get cheaper labor or more liberal voters.

    Morality — it is my understanding this woman already with children has n o husband. So the moral standard suggests she not only ignores the law, she cares not a with about morality and is careless regarding her forays with men.

  18. Typo? I think should be: “Nobody is in favor of open borders. We just hate everybody who is against open borders.”

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.
  19. So the moral standard for possessing “rights, privileges, and responsibilities” is that we “earn them ourselves?” That does seem to be the logical inference of her rhetorical question.

    Great! No welfare state. No free medical treatment for anybody, including alien women delivering babies. No food stamps, no Section 8 housing, no public schools, no Medicaid; unless you’ve earned it yourself you don’t deserve it.

    Her background doesn’t fit that of a classical libertarian but that seems to be the gist of her argument and “moral arguments” should be logically consistent.

    A rejoinder to her sloppy argument is that citizens possess our “rights, privileges, and responsibilities” because they have been bequeathed to us by earlier generations of citizens, going all the way back to our nation’s founding for the blessings of liberty for those Americans then living and their posterity, plus any legally naturalized citizens who have met the requirements established by Congress in Article 1 of our Constitution. That is not only a legal argument; it is a moral one as well.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Her background doesn’t fit that of a classical libertarian
     
    I'll say.

    none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship
     
    Awesome. Alexander has leap-frogged from Woke Socialism, sailed high over Liberalism and Conservatism and even Libertarianism, and landed with a thud in "Starship Troopers".

    I don't even think she realizes it.

    We should agreeandamplify her: "You're so right, Michelle! Citizenship should be earned! Here are our proposed ways to earn it," and the list is like totally fashy and jingoistic (and utterly impossible for most Wakandans to satisfy).

  20. You should make a “bingo card” for media articles about borders and immigration. A play-along game for al the family.

  21. Given the very obvious relative dancing of such comments — one has to consider the morality issue is but a ruse —

    For example, the author in question launches into a discussion about open and closed borders. She contends that it is not the border issue, but how to manage the it.

    Uhh, excuse me, the current policy regarding entry into the US is already established as is the mechanism for becoming a US citizen. I don’t know if ignoring that reality is a moral failing or just one of innocently forgetting or some manner of ignorance — I suspect that any lawyer with the background of the author would clearly know that the US has both a process for entering the US and a process for becoming a US citizen. I would consider the sleight of hand here to bypass those realities a moral lapse. Furthermore, I cannot for the life of me understand why a lawyer in the US would be investing if foreign law breaking and immorality when in fact, the criminal/legal needs for astute lawyers to the her citizens has vast problems. So instead on investing her efforts in aiding her own family she willing to engage in efforts to further undermine that value — hardly a “high road” to moral consistency.

    Now presumably the author doesn’t invite just anyone to come sleep in her home , though I have no idea why that would not be the case because in her view everyone has a right to a home and I cannot for the life of me understand why her home would be off limits. Presumable, the author did not choose her parents. She did not make the environment in which she was raised. She did not provide the opportunities afforded her that others of even her own country did have — by her own reckoning she deserves nothing she has. All of everything is derived from nothing of her own accord. By consequence everyone has a right to everything she claims is hers, car, home, body —

    Because everyone has a right to it — because they ar not responsible for any of it in the first place.

    When the referenced author I prepared to live by that standard, I will take some consideration her peculiar view of morality.

    For the time being, I consider her morality in question – depriving counsel to her own merely to add to the democratic vote count.

  22. Michelle Alexander:

    Answering these questions may be easy legally, but they’re more difficult morally. After all, none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    I guess one could ask: Who is to say anyone deserves to live? What have humans done as individuals to earn our first breaths upon birth?

    Elites successfully pushing open borders lawlessness will eventually lead to deadly back-and-forth battles, with people getting permanently ‘moderated at whim’ in large numbers—and any overarching societal “morality” will go out the window, at least for a while:

    “I know a lot of people who deserve to die.”

    More Alexander:

    The deeper question raised isn’t whether our borders should be open or closed (generally a false dichotomy) but rather how we ought to manage immigration in a manner that honors the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of all concerned.

    Mad Libs version 2:

    The deeper question raised isn’t whether [someone sexually consents or doesn’t] (generally a false dichotomy) but rather how we ought to manage [penetration] in a manner that honors the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of all concerned.

    • LOL: Abe
    • Replies: @ic1000
    Illuminating 'Mad Libs' wordsmithing in your comment.

    Michelle Alexander wrote,

    Answering these questions may be easy legally, but they’re more difficult morally. After all, none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?
     
    So I guess Ms. Alexander is an ardent and committed Right-To-Lifer. Or does she lecture her lessers that such arguments cannot possibly apply to the unborn, because Reasons.
  23. Behind every Michelle Alexander, there is a therapist making a nice living.

    • Disagree: Lowe
  24. Anon[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hail

    By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist
     
    Who is Michelle Alexander?
    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/13/opinion/michelle-alexander/michelle-alexander-thumbLarge.jpg

    Biographical info on Michelle Alexander
    - 1964: marriage of Michelle Alexander's White mother (Oregon origin) and Black father (Chicago); she characterizes her White mother's family and church as having opposed the union
    - 1967: Michelle Alexander is born in Chicago
    - 1970s: spends a few years in a planned, "sustainable living" community in the Champaign-Urbana metro area (Stelle, Illinois). Family often on the move in later 1970s and early 1980s as father has job trouble. Winds up back in mother's hometown in Oregon.
    - c.1985: graduates from high school in Ashland, Oregon (Census 2010: 90% White, 1% Black); receives affirmative action scholarship to Vanderbilt (Gertrude Vanderbilt Minority Scholarship) arranged by a connection of Michelle's White mother
    - 1989: graduates from Vanderbilt, majoring in Political Science
    - 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    - 1992-1998: "worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies" -- i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the "race hustle." Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    - 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    - 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    - 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a "joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity"
    - 2010: publishes book, "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness"
    - 2011: her first opinion column appears in New York Times. Never having come off the race-hustle gravy-train, the column opens:

    THE legal scholar Derrick A. Bell foresaw that mass incarceration, like earlier systems of racial control, would continue to exist...
     
    Michelle Alexander has had nine opinion columns published in the Times since 2011. As of Sept. 2018, she is a once-monthly opinion columnist. Her previous:

    The Newest Jim Crow
    Recent criminal justice reforms contain the seeds of a frightening system of “e-carceration.”

    By MICHELLE ALEXANDER / Nov. 9, 2018
     
    - 2016-Present: Visiting Professor of Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.

    But the question remains, "Is She Black Enough?"

    See Exhibit A:

    https://images.c-span.org/Files/cf2/20170610201611002_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.576.no_border.width.1024.jpg

    (Biographical info above mainly from an article on Michelle Alexander appearing in Vanderbilt Magazine, Dec. 2013)

    – 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    – 1992-1998: “worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies” — i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the “race hustle.” Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    – 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    – 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    – 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a “joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity”

    This is more evidence for my observation that black graduates (or half black in her case) of elite law programs wash out of the law within about five years. Mismatch, affirmative action, etc.

    In this case it was six years at a law firm, but the whole time as an associate. If you aren’t offered partnership at the firm by then, then I think that they are using you as a glorified paralegal. And what was her job at the firm? “Fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies.” Who was the client for that? Who was paying the billable hours? It turns out that it’s a class action firm, ahem. So, in my opinion, class action firms are ambulance chasers who hold up big corporations, I’d guess probably on disparate impact grounds. Even so, no partnership offer, I’d reckon.

    Then she shows up at the ACLU and ends up in a not-really-law job, and then as a professor of law, a common destination of black graduates of elite law programs. Where are the black partners in white shoe firms? What on earth could be keeping them in these ghetto law jobs in academia, non-profits, general counsel positions, etc.?

    • Agree: Trevor H., Autochthon
  25. @Hail

    By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist
     
    Who is Michelle Alexander?
    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/13/opinion/michelle-alexander/michelle-alexander-thumbLarge.jpg

    Biographical info on Michelle Alexander
    - 1964: marriage of Michelle Alexander's White mother (Oregon origin) and Black father (Chicago); she characterizes her White mother's family and church as having opposed the union
    - 1967: Michelle Alexander is born in Chicago
    - 1970s: spends a few years in a planned, "sustainable living" community in the Champaign-Urbana metro area (Stelle, Illinois). Family often on the move in later 1970s and early 1980s as father has job trouble. Winds up back in mother's hometown in Oregon.
    - c.1985: graduates from high school in Ashland, Oregon (Census 2010: 90% White, 1% Black); receives affirmative action scholarship to Vanderbilt (Gertrude Vanderbilt Minority Scholarship) arranged by a connection of Michelle's White mother
    - 1989: graduates from Vanderbilt, majoring in Political Science
    - 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    - 1992-1998: "worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies" -- i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the "race hustle." Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    - 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    - 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    - 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a "joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity"
    - 2010: publishes book, "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness"
    - 2011: her first opinion column appears in New York Times. Never having come off the race-hustle gravy-train, the column opens:

    THE legal scholar Derrick A. Bell foresaw that mass incarceration, like earlier systems of racial control, would continue to exist...
     
    Michelle Alexander has had nine opinion columns published in the Times since 2011. As of Sept. 2018, she is a once-monthly opinion columnist. Her previous:

    The Newest Jim Crow
    Recent criminal justice reforms contain the seeds of a frightening system of “e-carceration.”

    By MICHELLE ALEXANDER / Nov. 9, 2018
     
    - 2016-Present: Visiting Professor of Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.

    But the question remains, "Is She Black Enough?"

    See Exhibit A:

    https://images.c-span.org/Files/cf2/20170610201611002_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.576.no_border.width.1024.jpg

    (Biographical info above mainly from an article on Michelle Alexander appearing in Vanderbilt Magazine, Dec. 2013)

    Nice work Hail.

    She is blacker than Rachel Dolezal I will give her that.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    Well spotted.
  26. But for slavery, genocide and colonization, we would not be the wealthiest, most powerful nation in the world — in fact, our nation would not even exist.

    Yeah, slavery, that’s what did it. And after the South won the Civil War and impoverished the North, destroyed their industrial base, etc., there was no looking back. Just genocide and colonization from sea to racis’ sea…

  27. @Hail

    By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist
     
    Who is Michelle Alexander?
    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/13/opinion/michelle-alexander/michelle-alexander-thumbLarge.jpg

    Biographical info on Michelle Alexander
    - 1964: marriage of Michelle Alexander's White mother (Oregon origin) and Black father (Chicago); she characterizes her White mother's family and church as having opposed the union
    - 1967: Michelle Alexander is born in Chicago
    - 1970s: spends a few years in a planned, "sustainable living" community in the Champaign-Urbana metro area (Stelle, Illinois). Family often on the move in later 1970s and early 1980s as father has job trouble. Winds up back in mother's hometown in Oregon.
    - c.1985: graduates from high school in Ashland, Oregon (Census 2010: 90% White, 1% Black); receives affirmative action scholarship to Vanderbilt (Gertrude Vanderbilt Minority Scholarship) arranged by a connection of Michelle's White mother
    - 1989: graduates from Vanderbilt, majoring in Political Science
    - 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    - 1992-1998: "worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies" -- i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the "race hustle." Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    - 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    - 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    - 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a "joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity"
    - 2010: publishes book, "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness"
    - 2011: her first opinion column appears in New York Times. Never having come off the race-hustle gravy-train, the column opens:

    THE legal scholar Derrick A. Bell foresaw that mass incarceration, like earlier systems of racial control, would continue to exist...
     
    Michelle Alexander has had nine opinion columns published in the Times since 2011. As of Sept. 2018, she is a once-monthly opinion columnist. Her previous:

    The Newest Jim Crow
    Recent criminal justice reforms contain the seeds of a frightening system of “e-carceration.”

    By MICHELLE ALEXANDER / Nov. 9, 2018
     
    - 2016-Present: Visiting Professor of Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.

    But the question remains, "Is She Black Enough?"

    See Exhibit A:

    https://images.c-span.org/Files/cf2/20170610201611002_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.576.no_border.width.1024.jpg

    (Biographical info above mainly from an article on Michelle Alexander appearing in Vanderbilt Magazine, Dec. 2013)

    Did the article say if her father left her mother, and how old she was at the time?

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Did the article say if her father left her mother, and how old she was at the time?
     
    Don't black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?
  28. We just have everybody who is against open borders.

    I think that should have been hate. Apparently everybody else either read it right automatically or thought you came up with a drollery that was so advanced it didn’t seem to make sense at first glance.

  29. ”Are the United States of America a nation in which laws come first or a nation in which moral rights come first? What moral right does the government have to apply the law? Should the government need a moral right to apply the law?”

  30. To think, by most historical standards, from Broker T. Washington (“Drop your buckets where you are”) to Barbara Jordan, blacks were the most anti-Zeroth Amendment Americans. After all, immigration from Southern Europe in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries had drastic effects on blacks in Northeastern cities much like the effects of Latin Americans now. It was then when the archetypal “Black Barber” was replaced by the “Italian Barber”.

  31. I notice that no one on the left is working on the problem of making 3rd world countries places which are prosperous and safe to live in. Can’t the argument that everyone has the right to live in the West be rephrased as everyone has the right to live in a majority White society?

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
  32. No, Ms. Alexander, the question is not “what gives us the right”…but rather “why aren’t YOU paying your dues? It’s not a “right” but rather a DUTY to respect and protect that which provides the very privileges and opportunities we enjoy. Yes, membership in our club does indeed have its privileges, but our club won’t be worth joining if its by-laws aren’t honored and enforced by its members.

  33. None of us “deserves” citizenship, so all of us do. Okaaaaaaay.

    None of us deserves citizenship but all of us “deserve compassion and basic human rights”. Why? What have any of us done to “deserve” compassion? or “basic human rights”? Who made up that Rule?

    Where is it written that migration is one of those “basic human rights”?

    Why must I feel anything but neutral towards the life and existence of another person? Why do they “deserve” my compassion? In according them their “basic human rights” why must that extend to sharing my homespace with them?

    This all goes back to Obama’s “You didn’t build that.” quote. I’ve got to come clean here. I am the author of that quote. Eight years ago when I commented on a left wing blog I said “We don’t own our infrastructure. We didn’t build it”. But what I meant was, we inherited it and have an obligation to pass it on to our descendants in good shape. We have no right to strip mine our cultural assets inasmuch as they are communal property belonging to a transcendental entity that endures through time. And certainly if we have no right to sell it off then neither do others have the right to demand joint ownership of it.

    In taking my words out of context and isolating the “We didn’t build it”, the people who wrote Obama’s speeches gave the phrase an entirely different meaning. But their usage is clearly nonsense. All we need do is ask them, “Well then, who did build it?”. And in response all they offer up is weak, easily-refuted nonsense such as “slavery, genocide and colonization”.

    Genocide in and of itself builds nothing. Overall, slaves made a small contribution to the wealth of America; to believe otherwise is to put one’s ignorance of the history of technology on display–and I’ll wager good money that both Obama and this woman have ignorance of technology, in spades. Colonization is just like yeast budding. How is it inherently bad?

    There’s nothing logically compelling in her arguments. They’re just resentiment of our cultural superiority coupled with her compulsion to steal our patrimony.

  34. @Hail

    By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist
     
    Who is Michelle Alexander?
    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/13/opinion/michelle-alexander/michelle-alexander-thumbLarge.jpg

    Biographical info on Michelle Alexander
    - 1964: marriage of Michelle Alexander's White mother (Oregon origin) and Black father (Chicago); she characterizes her White mother's family and church as having opposed the union
    - 1967: Michelle Alexander is born in Chicago
    - 1970s: spends a few years in a planned, "sustainable living" community in the Champaign-Urbana metro area (Stelle, Illinois). Family often on the move in later 1970s and early 1980s as father has job trouble. Winds up back in mother's hometown in Oregon.
    - c.1985: graduates from high school in Ashland, Oregon (Census 2010: 90% White, 1% Black); receives affirmative action scholarship to Vanderbilt (Gertrude Vanderbilt Minority Scholarship) arranged by a connection of Michelle's White mother
    - 1989: graduates from Vanderbilt, majoring in Political Science
    - 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    - 1992-1998: "worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies" -- i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the "race hustle." Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    - 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    - 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    - 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a "joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity"
    - 2010: publishes book, "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness"
    - 2011: her first opinion column appears in New York Times. Never having come off the race-hustle gravy-train, the column opens:

    THE legal scholar Derrick A. Bell foresaw that mass incarceration, like earlier systems of racial control, would continue to exist...
     
    Michelle Alexander has had nine opinion columns published in the Times since 2011. As of Sept. 2018, she is a once-monthly opinion columnist. Her previous:

    The Newest Jim Crow
    Recent criminal justice reforms contain the seeds of a frightening system of “e-carceration.”

    By MICHELLE ALEXANDER / Nov. 9, 2018
     
    - 2016-Present: Visiting Professor of Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.

    But the question remains, "Is She Black Enough?"

    See Exhibit A:

    https://images.c-span.org/Files/cf2/20170610201611002_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.576.no_border.width.1024.jpg

    (Biographical info above mainly from an article on Michelle Alexander appearing in Vanderbilt Magazine, Dec. 2013)

    Thanks.

    Reminds me again of the race-hustle pipeline that flows through academia; law; and gov’t agencies, such as:

    Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity

    Really? I’m guessing that’s at least a 75% gov’t funded enterprise.

    Her shtick amounts to manufactured moral posturing that justifies wealth transfer as long as her station isn’t touched.

  35. @Simon in London
    I agree with Michelle Alexander that she does not deserve US citizenship, and that few if any New York Times opinion writers deserve US citizenship.

    I agree with Michelle Alexander that she does not deserve US citizenship

    The Supreme Court ruled exactly that in 1857…

  36. The deeper question raised isn’t whether [someone sexually consents or doesn’t] (generally a false dichotomy) but rather how we ought to manage [penetration] in a manner that honors the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of all concerned.

    LOL! You just nailed it. I’d love to see this silly woman’s response to this if it were raised in an actual debate.

  37. To climb heavy with child o’er the wall
    Risking life of your child if you fall
    Just to anchor its birth
    In a foreigner’s earth
    Isn’t really so “moral” at all.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    That's quite excellent.
  38. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    Membership to a nation, works like membership to a pre-nation tribe, or a nuclear family in that it’s a birthright inheritance passed in an unbroken chain from parent to child, rather than something that is earned as an individual.

    My daughter didn’t earn membership into my family and all the rights, privileges, and opportunity that go with that, she was born into my family. A Cherokee Indian didn’t earn the rights and privileges of being a member of the Cherokee tribe as an individual, he or she was typically born into it and received membership as a birthright inheritance.

  39. @LauraM
    No one is for open borders? What is the difference between her position and open borders? As far as I can tell, she believes that anyone who wanders in here is "entitled" to citizenship. That sounds like open borders to me.
    Let's face it: this woman cannot think straight. She specializes in emotion-laden non-sequiters. But that is now the MO of female pundits in the op ed page of the NYTimes.

    Agreed. In fact, by her logic, no one really needs to migrate. Simply vote in American elections from anywhere on the planet … and of course collect welfare payments from American taxpayers where they live as well.

  40. Typo alert:

    Nobody is in favor of open borders. We just have everybody who is against open borders.

    I think that should be “hate” or “have” should be “have to oppose” or something.

    • Agree: slumber_j
  41. USA is “advertised as a nation of immigrants” … by Jews who invented the business of advertising and the concept of a nation of immigrants, and who employ Alexander.

  42. If genocide, slavery, and colonialism are sure-fire ways to national prosperity, shouldn’t most of Latin America be kicking our tail? After all, the conquistadors managed to wipe our not just one or two civilizations, but all three advanced societies in the New World and imported far more African slaves than the predecessors to the United States, not to mentioning conquering more territory.

    Anyway, she does a good job of framing immigration the way the left is trying to – as though we have no moral right to determine who gets into our country or under what conditions, and paints illegals as refugees rather than people who simply live in failing societies that want to move to a largely successful one. I understand the sentiment, but the desire for a more comfortable existence doesn’t create an obligation on the American public to take in whomever shows up.

    • Agree: Prester John, Rob McX
    • Replies: @Louis Renault
    "all three advanced societies in the New World " They hadn't even advanced to the bronze age and the conquistadors had lots of help from the locals opposed to the peoples in power. The Tlaxcalans just thought they could get rid of Cortez once they were in charge. Kind of like white democrats think they'll always be in charge of the Democratic party. Just aks ex-Congressman Crowley.
    , @njguy73

    After all, the conquistadors managed to wipe our not just one or two civilizations, but all three advanced societies in the New World and imported far more African slaves than the predecessors to the United States, not to mentioning conquering more territory.
     
    Yeah, Spain was kicking tail for a while, then this thing happened in 1588.
  43. Our forefathers earned the right to bestow citizenship upon their descendants

    • Agree: ben tillman, Hail
  44. @LauraM
    No one is for open borders? What is the difference between her position and open borders? As far as I can tell, she believes that anyone who wanders in here is "entitled" to citizenship. That sounds like open borders to me.
    Let's face it: this woman cannot think straight. She specializes in emotion-laden non-sequiters. But that is now the MO of female pundits in the op ed page of the NYTimes.

    Let’s face it: this woman cannot think straight.

    Oh, she knows exactly what she is doing.

  45. @Coag
    The four steps from Nazism to Enlightenment:

    1.) Only American citizens deserve American citizenship

    2.) No-one deserves American citizenship

    3.) All 7.5 billion people on Earth deserve American citizenship

    4.) Only non-American citizens deserve American citizenship

    If only all of my reading material was this concise.

  46. @George
    Falling total fertility rate should be welcomed, population expert says
    Figures showing declining birth rates are ‘cause for celebration’, not alarm

    “I believe that one of the reasons why Angela Merkel took the million refugees was because she desperately needed to boost her working population,” said Harper.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/26/falling-total-fertility-rate-should-be-welcomed-population-expert-says

    It does appear the number of employed persons in Germany has increased:
    https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/employed-persons

    “I believe that one of the reasons why Angela Merkel took the million refugees was because she desperately needed to boost her working population,” said Harper.

    Erm…yeah about that. They don’t work. They don’t have skills. They collect a lot of benefits though. And free apartments.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4048268/Just-34-000-migrants-1-2million-arrive-Germany-two-years-work-government-reveals.html

  47. Propaganda, combat, glory, the loot of Empire. Then, sleep the sleep of the just knowing that it was all moral.

    Crane Brinton [0] described the Western revolutionary process back in the 1960s. At every phase of the process, each side fields propagandists. They are vital — they can recruit crunchies (“activists”), keep the neutral people neutral, can influence which group joins which side, and keep up the morale of the side they support.
    Conflict doesn’t decide who is right, it decides who is left. After it’s all over, the morality of the winning side prevails. Should that morality be utterly and completely wrong, then the society built on it will fail (as the USSR did, as the Republic of South Africa is in the process of doing), but that’s it. The wartime propaganda will never be repudiated by the side that issued it.
    It would appear that the effectiveness of the propaganda is currently distinctly separated from the viability of a society based on the propaganda.
    It’s interesting to watch if you have the stomach for it.

    One important part of propaganda is selecting the target audience. The Democratic Party seems, to me, to be supported by the Yankees, the New York City establishment, and the cities of the West Coast (influenced strongly by Yankee traders and Sephardic Jewish businessmen). I am here using Woodward’s classifications [1].
    That being the case, the propaganda must attack along two lines (a and b), each strongly aligned with regional beliefs and practices:
    a) American society does not accept non-whites, hence does not serve non-whites. This appeals to the New York establishment (which is dependent on immigration, non-whites only because only non-whites have growing populations now), the Catholic church (which depends on immigration for believers)
    b) Failure to serve everybody is always a moral failing. This appeals to the Yankees, who heavily influence the the mainline Protestant churches, to the various Anabaptist groups, Quakers, and Unitarian Universalists. Each of these groups believe strongly in human equality in the secular realm, and have even given up any claim of punishment in the afterlife for misdeeds on Earth. Quite a few of them have abandoned the idea of God, apparently substituting good deeds for faith.
    (a) is accomplished by the article’s tone and the non-white race of its author, which also promises businessmen (NYC and Yankees between them dominate corporations) that, should the article’s demands be granted, then the domestic peace needed by businessmen will continue.
    (b) is accomplished by asserting that dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of all concerned will be maintained provided the article’s demands are met. This is consistent with Yankee religious beliefs.

    Any successful counter-propaganda would have to defeat both (a) and (b), or else render them inapplicable.
    Defeating (a) is very difficult. The non-white groups are quite correct when they talk of “white privilege”: American society was built by whites, and non-white’s generally don’t like it. For that matter, the AD 1890s immigrants (Eastern and Southern Europe) didn’t like the Northern and Western European society they encountered, and had substantially changed it (from a power base in, you guessed it, NYC and New England) by c.a. AD 1970. The current wave of immigration appears to like US society less than even the AD 1890s wave, and some of them may simply be unable to like or even participate in American society. This was the case previously for American Indians (not rally immigrants, of course) and what are now called African Americans (such as the piece’s author, if you don’t believe me about non-assimilation, ask her).
    Defeating (b) is perhaps even more difficult. New England was largely responsible for both the US Civil War (0.6 to 0.7 megadeaths) and, not even slowing down, the disaster of Reconstruction (which initially killed off quite a few former slaves and eventually failed). Despite many dead and a failed secular project, New England hasn’t since shown any sign of realizing that they did something bad. Convincing Yankees that they’ve done anything wrong, ever, (and this is despite their continual confessions of sin) is probably not possible. Should the Yankees believe that they’ve failed as badly as they have (more recent example: ending marriage didn’t liberate women, it cut off the income source they needed to raise children, causing endless suffering to women and men both) they might well disintegrate as a society. They have shown no signs of wanting to disintegrate as a society.

    This is why I emphasize that we’re not in a debate, we’re in a fight. The other side doesn’t listen, and probably can’t listen. Again, see Woodward’s descripti0n of revolution [1].

    And, while you’re at it, watch “the persecution and assassination of Jean-Paul Marat” [2] to get some idea of the emotional tone of a revolutionary fight. In real history, the French Revolution continued as long as orators (such as Michelle Alexander) could convince a mob of Parisians to storm the Assembly. This stopped after the Revolutionary Army had shipped enough off to get blown away as infantry and Napoleon expressed a willingness to blow away those who had stayed. Memorable quote from Napoleon’s re-building of Paris: “I want wide boulevards, open to air, sunshine, and artillery fire”). The movie’s [2] point is that revolution is insanity, and I might add that there is no end to insanity save physical inability. To support this point, note that AD 1848 European revolutions failed when Eastern European governments simply moved away from the urban riots, as opposed to the French king who remained (with no troops on call) within marching distance of the Paris rioters. No physical threat, no Revolution. This as opposed to “Calm talk, no Revolution”.

    So how is propaganda rendered inapplicable? Well, typically there is a very long time of contention, after which only one side’s propaganda will be listened to by enough people to influence the government. Example: USSR era propaganda has a very small audience in the Russian Federation. Example: Royalist propaganda has a very small audience anywhere in Europe, and a smaller one in the US. Trouble is, we’re on the wrong side of the contention.

    So, short term, best effort would be to point out that (a) and (b) don’t apply to quite a few people in the US, and attempt to recruit them. Be careful not to violate the norms of your target audience, but be sure to point out that (a) and (b) _do_ violate the norms of your target audience. Remember that truth is the best propaganda, but also remember that you’re writing propaganda, not holding a debate.

    Heck of a deal, all this nonsense, and not what I would have advised, but, well, nobody asked me. Combat, Glory, Loot of Empire drives revolutions, and it is a powerful motivator.

    Counterinsurgency

    0] Crane Brinton;
    _Anatomy of a Revolution_;
    Vintage, 1965/8/12

    1] Colin Woodward; “American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America”; Penguin Books,September 29, 2011.

    2] “Marat/Sade (1967) + subtitles”
    United Artists, 1967
    Search YouTube.com for “Marat/Sade (1967) + subtitles” or use URL:

    Counterinsurgency

  48. “We’re not for open borders. We’re just against not letting in anyone who wonders up to the border.”

    Orwell called this “doublethink.”

    dou·ble·think
    noun
    the acceptance of or mental capacity to accept contrary opinions or beliefs at the same time, especially as a result of political indoctrination.

    The Party’s existence and power depends on it.

  49. “Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

    That f___ing poem needs removed from the Statue of Liberty.

  50. You could argue that the “wise” Latina teenager who scaled the wall while being 8 months pregnant along with a three year old baby does not even deserve to raise her children because she put them recklessly in danger. Needless to say, all she deserves is jail time and deportation.

  51. @Achmed E. Newman
    I don't know how you do it, Steve, reading these lies day-in and day-out without heading to NYC to give these people a piece of your mind. The lies are especially strong in this Miss Alexander. The Statue of Liberty as a an advertisement for immigration? (She also doesn't mention that it didn't come with a plaque with that stupid poem.) I can't fix this stupidity without a long comment, but let me say that I'm outraged by Miss Alexander's comparing some fat Mexican freeloading trespasser to the Founding Fathers who pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor.

    The worst thing is, is that this article is 5 days old. You've got 5 days of lies to sort through to catch up. Getter done.

    The Statue of Liberty as a an advertisement for immigration? (She also doesn’t mention that it didn’t come with a plaque with that stupid poem.)

    She also implies that it’s a quote from “the founders of our nation.” (Zeroth Amendment!)

  52. For many, the election of Barack Obama to the presidency symbolized the imminent birth of this new America, and many whites feared their privileged status, identity and way of life would die in the transition. The reaction was swift and fierce. It shouldn’t have been surprising.

    Donald Trump’s election represents a surge of resistance to this rapidly swelling river, an effort to build not just a wall but a dam. A new nation is struggling to be born, a multiracial, multiethnic, multifaith, egalitarian democracy in which every life and every voice truly matters. In recent years, we’ve seen glimpses of this new nation at Standing Rock, in the streets of Ferguson, in the eyes of the Dreamers, in the voices of teenagers from Parkland and Chicago, as well as at L.G.B.T. pride celebrations, the Women’s March and the camps of Occupy Wall Street. Confederate statues are coming down as new memorials and statutes are going up in Montgomery, Ala., and beyond, honoring victims of lynching as well as the courageous souls who fought for the abolition of slavery and the end of Jim Crow.

    If we pause long enough and consider where we stand in relationship to the centuries-long quest to create a truly equitable democracy, we may be able to see that the revolutionary river that brought us this far just might be the only thing that could possibly carry us to a place where we all belong.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    Your revolutionary river will break up into an fathomless morass of delta swamps once it reaches its destination.
  53. The New York Times is an enemy of the American people.

    When I become president in 2021, I shall make the treasonous rats at the New York Times feel the legal tines of my supporters’ pitchforks. I will financially liquidate the NY Times, and I will legally take away any and all properties — including broadcast licenses — that the NY Times might have.

    Trump may have dumped Ann Coulter by un-following our gal Ann on Twitter, but Trumpy can’t take away Ann Coulter’s 2 million Twitter followers.

    I must suggest that Ann Coulter has somewhat more cordial relations than I do with the NY Times. Bruni the bonehead did a reasonable bit with Coulter for an article, but that might be because Bruni is from White Plains and Coulter is from Connecticut, and those people north of New York City have a non-aggression pact understanding.

    Tweet from 2015:

  54. I’ve noticed a pattern in the comments to the open borders op-eds and editorials in the Times. If Trump is not involved (as is the case here), then the top comments tend to oppose the author’s position. However once Trump is in the picture the balance shifts, and the top comments tend to oppose whatever Trump is doing, even when he is trying to protect our borders.

    This is one reason Trump makes me very sad. There is so much lost opportunity here! If Trump weren’t such a flaming jackass I think he would have been able to peel away many non-ideological liberals from the Democratic party. By doing so he would have truly established that Trumpism (patriotic nationalism) was the way forward for the Right, forcing a realignment in American politics, and even providing support for our nationalist allies in Europe. Instead we have a clown who is energizing the Left and discrediting everything that got him elected. Sad!

  55. Anon[287] • Disclaimer says:

    There are billions of cases of injustice and “man’s inhumanity to man” that occur throughout the world every day. But the Machiavellian NYT chooses only to report on and distort, and in some cases completely fabricate, stories that suit their agenda.

    Let me know when the NYT starts reporting on decent contributing citizens being literally RAPED by divorce, and CPS literally RIPPING away children from honest caring families who did nothing wrong. Then I might start pretending to give a f***.

  56. After all, what was Ms. Serrano-Hernandez doing if not pursuing life, liberty and happiness for herself and her family? Did she not display a level of courage, fortitude and determination to win freedom for herself and those she loved comparable to that of those who helped birth our nation?

    Once you start thinking like that you must also question whether Ms Serrano-Hernandez deserved to be born in Mexico, somewhere where all one had to do is get over the border fence to be in the promised land among a welcoming diaspora and friendly elites. It is an fortunate accident of birth being born either side of the US–Mexico border. Billions as–or more–deserving exist.

    Many pregnant women in this world were not so fortunate as to be born into a country beside the United States of America. If America is to be the home of the brave, then it cannot justly let people in for climbing a farce of a fence such that a woman about to give birth can get over it.

  57. New York Times columnist Michelle Alexander is a mulatto or quadroon of some sort.

    Michelle Alexander and President Trump both believe that many Black criminals and other criminals should be released from prison and given milk and cookies.

    Michelle Alexander gave a speech where she said that many criminals have had their human rights taken from them by being incarcerated and imprisoned. Jared Kushner, the vile shyster cad who whispers crappy ideas in Trump’s ears, also believes that convicted felons should be rewarded with freedom and given milk and cookies.

    I challenge President Trump to a debate on two topics — crime and immigration — brought up by this blog post regarding the views of New York Times columnist Michelle Alexander. On crime and immigration, President Trump has been a major disappointment.

    Michelle Alexander pushes mass legal immigration because she wants to destroy the United States as a European Christian nation. Trumpy pushes mass legal immigration because he wants to drive down wages for US workers and also to attack the European Christian ancestral core of the United States.

    Michelle Alexander and President Trump share too many of the same opinions for my satisfaction, and I suspect voters in the upcoming GOP presidential primary will feel the same way.

    HAPPY NEW YEAR!

  58. Random question, but if I mailed my sperm to a surrogate in the USA, nine months later would I have a spanking new American citizen?

  59. There’s a reason the “NPC” meme cuts so deep. These people’s entire mental life consists of scripted responses.

  60. Ms. Alexander sure does hate the civilization built by Whitey.

    She is a walking advertisement for why certain of those Constitutional amendements which extended the franchise to previously ineligible groups were mistakes of nation-ending proportion.

    I happen to like this society which we and our ancestors built, and would like to preserve it for my children. I fear it will take some strong medicine.

    • Agree: Svigor, Kylie
    • Replies: @Hail

    Ms. Alexander sure does hate the civilization built by Whitey.
     
    To be precise, she hates her mother's race and ca. 60-65%+ of her own ancestry.

    Just as a famous misattribution had it of Obama:

    https://hailtoyou.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/animosity.jpg

    (This line is actually from none other than Steve Sailer paraphrasing Dreams of My Father)
  61. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    Perhaps none, but this isn’t a moral question. This is a matter of natural law, the laws of nature.

    This is our land. Our people took it, fair and square. (Well, mine did. I don’t know about yours.)

    One way to pull ourselves free of these word tricksters is to just change the rules back to what they really are. (In any argument, especially an annoying, deceptive one, look for the givens, which in this case are “moral grounds.”)

    Does a mountain lion ask for moral permission to take a territory and eat what lives on it? No. We are a species of animals too, with essentially the same needs and drives. We live by the same natural law that is unavoidable. Right now, others are applying that law to our land, while their intellectual class tricks our people with words.

    Steve’s bunny moved into the back yard. A raptor moved into the trees and tried to hunt and eat him. The bunny built a bunker and held his living space. We are no different.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "This is our land. Our people took it, fair and square."

    LOL, you really have a strange way of equating "fair and square" with conniving and lying.

    "This is a matter of natural law, the laws of nature."

    The term "natural law" is derived from the belief that human morality comes from nature. Everything in nature has a purpose, including humans. In short, any law that is good is moral, and any moral law is good. Stated another way--Natural Law is a moral theory of jurisprudence, which maintains that law should be based on morality and ethics.

    In other words, it is a question of morality.
    , @the one they call Desanex
    Steve Sailer had a rabbit;
    A raptor tried to grab it.
    The bunny built a bunker
    Down into which to hunker.
  62. Being the top shelf lawyer she is, I bet Michelle Alexander has her estate affairs arranged to insure an orderly transfer of assets to undeserving members of her family. (i.e. There’ll be no Maryury Elizabeth Serrano-Hernandezezs breaking water on the heirloom Persian rugs at the reading of her will.)

  63. “Nobody is in favor of open borders. We just have everybody who is against open borders.”

    Mr. Sailer, I do not recall YOU ever clearly defining what YOU mean by “open borders”, other than posting other people’s interpretations? Has there been a post where YOU actually articulate this concept in a succinct manner, or is it more fun to have your audience NOTICE the patterns without actually saying what are those patterns? I suppose it is easier for you to adhere to your first law of NOTICING THE UNNOTICED–The media, mainstream or alternative, furnishes us with convenient concepts that make it easier to remember the facts they prefer you to know and harder to remember the facts that undermine the concepts.

  64. @George
    "on what moral grounds " Self interest + democracy.

    If you want to get high brow about the discussion, the question is what is or is not constitutional or perhaps is there a 'natural right' to immigrate.

    On an economic or even religious level, the question is if US foreign policy, aka imperialism, is propelling the need to immigrate. It is not obvious that Honduran domestic policy would change all that much if US foreign policy changed, but maybe Hillary did destroy the Honduran economy like she destroyed Libya.

    The “on what moral grounds ” question reminds me of conversations with five-year-old children where they keep asking “Why?”

    Those asking the question are not capable of understanding the answer, so there is nothing you can say that will satisfy them. Meanwhile, they think they are getting the better of you because they can keep asking.

  65. @Hail

    By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist
     
    Who is Michelle Alexander?
    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/13/opinion/michelle-alexander/michelle-alexander-thumbLarge.jpg

    Biographical info on Michelle Alexander
    - 1964: marriage of Michelle Alexander's White mother (Oregon origin) and Black father (Chicago); she characterizes her White mother's family and church as having opposed the union
    - 1967: Michelle Alexander is born in Chicago
    - 1970s: spends a few years in a planned, "sustainable living" community in the Champaign-Urbana metro area (Stelle, Illinois). Family often on the move in later 1970s and early 1980s as father has job trouble. Winds up back in mother's hometown in Oregon.
    - c.1985: graduates from high school in Ashland, Oregon (Census 2010: 90% White, 1% Black); receives affirmative action scholarship to Vanderbilt (Gertrude Vanderbilt Minority Scholarship) arranged by a connection of Michelle's White mother
    - 1989: graduates from Vanderbilt, majoring in Political Science
    - 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    - 1992-1998: "worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies" -- i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the "race hustle." Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    - 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    - 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    - 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a "joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity"
    - 2010: publishes book, "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness"
    - 2011: her first opinion column appears in New York Times. Never having come off the race-hustle gravy-train, the column opens:

    THE legal scholar Derrick A. Bell foresaw that mass incarceration, like earlier systems of racial control, would continue to exist...
     
    Michelle Alexander has had nine opinion columns published in the Times since 2011. As of Sept. 2018, she is a once-monthly opinion columnist. Her previous:

    The Newest Jim Crow
    Recent criminal justice reforms contain the seeds of a frightening system of “e-carceration.”

    By MICHELLE ALEXANDER / Nov. 9, 2018
     
    - 2016-Present: Visiting Professor of Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.

    But the question remains, "Is She Black Enough?"

    See Exhibit A:

    https://images.c-span.org/Files/cf2/20170610201611002_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.576.no_border.width.1024.jpg

    (Biographical info above mainly from an article on Michelle Alexander appearing in Vanderbilt Magazine, Dec. 2013)

    “The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness”
    Wasn’t Barack president when she wrote that? Well at least Trump did something about that, thanks to the Kardashians:
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-signs-criminal-justice-reform-bill

    I wonder how much impact Ms. Alexander had when talking to Trump about prison reform? She did meet with Trump about that, didn’t she?????

  66. Immigration law should balance the needs of AMERICAN business, AMERICAN labor and the AMERICAN economy. Our corrupt congress considers only the cheap labor lobby. Hence the political battle over immigration. The problem created by a crooked congress can only be corrected by an honest congress. Don’t get your hopes up.

  67. They say there are two kinds of people: wolves and sheep.

    So if you’re a wolf type, imagine that you’ve set up a tree stand from which you intend to shoot a deer with your bow. You’ve cleared your lanes of fire, you’ve baited your ambush with offerings of flavored salt that you laboriously hauled to your remote site on a regular basis for the previous 6 months. Then opening day, one fine Autumn morning you arrive at your stand to find a stranger occupying your seat. When you ask him “What’s up?”, he responds that he is taking over your site.

    You tell him he’s nuts, to get the hell out of your stand or there will be trouble. He responds, “This isn’t yours. Just because you were here before I was doesn’t give you an exclusive claim and the right to deny me the use of this space. If anything, I have a more just claim to it as I am incapable of building such a nice setup and am therefore needier. As your own Jesus said, ‘From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs.’”*

    If you’re a sprout muncher, imagine that you’ve planted a garden. Laboriously felled the trees, pulled stumps, turned the soil, cleared the weeds and sowed the seeds. Comes now the time for harvest and one fine Autumn morning you arrive at your garden to find a stranger helping himself to your produce. Pulling up carrots, potatoes and radishes, lopping off the heads of your lettuce and cabbage. When you ask him “What’s up? etc. etc.

    Put this way it is easy to see the absurdity of claims to shared ownership by the likes of grifters and scammers such as Obama and this Alexander wench.

    *Yeah, yeah, I know.

  68. @Arclight
    If genocide, slavery, and colonialism are sure-fire ways to national prosperity, shouldn't most of Latin America be kicking our tail? After all, the conquistadors managed to wipe our not just one or two civilizations, but all three advanced societies in the New World and imported far more African slaves than the predecessors to the United States, not to mentioning conquering more territory.

    Anyway, she does a good job of framing immigration the way the left is trying to - as though we have no moral right to determine who gets into our country or under what conditions, and paints illegals as refugees rather than people who simply live in failing societies that want to move to a largely successful one. I understand the sentiment, but the desire for a more comfortable existence doesn't create an obligation on the American public to take in whomever shows up.

    “all three advanced societies in the New World ” They hadn’t even advanced to the bronze age and the conquistadors had lots of help from the locals opposed to the peoples in power. The Tlaxcalans just thought they could get rid of Cortez once they were in charge. Kind of like white democrats think they’ll always be in charge of the Democratic party. Just aks ex-Congressman Crowley.

  69. @George
    "on what moral grounds " Self interest + democracy.

    If you want to get high brow about the discussion, the question is what is or is not constitutional or perhaps is there a 'natural right' to immigrate.

    On an economic or even religious level, the question is if US foreign policy, aka imperialism, is propelling the need to immigrate. It is not obvious that Honduran domestic policy would change all that much if US foreign policy changed, but maybe Hillary did destroy the Honduran economy like she destroyed Libya.

    TBH, the places where we Invade the World are mostly not the same as the places where we Invite the World. Invade the World and Invite the World are each independently dumb ideas in their own right and don’t need to be linked together to be considered dumb.

    Honduras has been a shitty place more or less forever and if the United States did not exist or if we had a completely isolationist foreign policy, it would still be a shitty place. In fact, if you look at the times and places in Latin America where American influence has been expelled (Cuba, Venezuela, etc.) things are even shittier without American “interference”. AFAIK, Hillary did absolutely nothing to make Honduras even worse than it already was. She probably couldn’t even find the place on a map. Not everything that is bad in the world is the fault of the US.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Honduras has been a shitty place more or less forever and if the United States did not exist or if we had a completely isolationist foreign policy, it would still be a shitty place.
     
    That's true, but immigration from Central America only really picked up after our most recent involvement there in the late 70s and 1980s. Just as Somalis only started to come here after we intervened in Somalia in 1993. And of course, there were the Southeast Asians who came here in the wake of the Vietnam War. And one almost never heard of Afghanis here, until 2001. Since 1965, whenever we have gotten militarily involved in some country, it unleashes streams of immigrants from the affected area. And, of course, there are streams from every place else as well. But the Invade-the-Word part of the formula is not unlinked to the Invite-the-World part.
    , @Corvinus
    "Honduras has been a shitty place more or less forever..."

    Only until European jackbooting. Thanks, international fruit companies!

    "What she says is true, but most non-Americans have ZERO legitimate interest in become Americans..."

    And you know this...how?

  70. Lost in all of this is the fact that since this Maryury ete. etc. had a child within moments after scaling the wall, the child is now a citizen, not the mother, and that child no more “earned” his/her right to be a citizen than I did. Why? Because under the Constitution a person born in the United States is conferred automatic citizenship. In other words, that’s the law–a law which is otherwise silent about “earning” citizenship except to the extent that one who wishes to become a NATURALIZED citizenship is required to pass a basic citizenship test. This Alexander woman is a lawyer, not a moral philosopher or a theologian. If she objects to the law then she argue the law, not “morality.”

  71. @Rob McX

    The deeper question raised isn’t whether our borders should be open or closed (generally a false dichotomy) but rather how we ought to manage immigration in a manner that honors the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of all concerned.
     
    Just manage the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of the two or three billion people who'd like to immigrate to America. How hard can that be?

    What she says is true, but most non-Americans have ZERO legitimate interest in become Americans (any more than I have a legitimate interest in becoming Congolese) so when you plug the numbers into this equation the solution is probably not the one that Michelle has in mind.

    • Agree: bomag
  72. Half of this country favors the children of foreigners over your children. Half of this country favors a foreigner’s wishes for America over your’s. Half don’t consider you – whose ancestors were Americans for hundreds of years – to be worthy of citizenship. What kind of compatriots are these? What kind of nation is this? Whatever we are, it is no longer a people, no longer a nation. We need two countries and it is really is a pity we are not so geographically divided to arrange that. These people will drag us down.

  73. @PiltdownMan
    https://youtu.be/mq__Z-Z_Ofs

    "There was living space for thirteen families! In this one house!"
     

    Yes, it’s really the same thing. Do any of us DESERVE our property, any more than we DESERVE our citizenship? Zhivago inherited his family home – he did nothing to deserve it, so it was not wrong to force him to share it with 12 other families just as it is not wrong to force us to share the US with the entire population of Latin America. It’s just some accident of birth that we were born on Magic Dirt and they were born on Tragic Dirt, just as it was an accident that Zhivago was born to a family of landed gentry and not as a serf. You just snip some wires on the fence and sneak under and viola, justice is restored. What could be simpler?

    • Replies: @The True and Original David
    "Zhivago inherited his family home – he did nothing to deserve it, so it was not wrong to force him to share it with 12 other families"

    Yes, this is the left all over. It's also people like Warren Buffet, in regard to inheritance generally. He wants YOU to leave your children nothing, whereas his kids will be alright, no matter how his estate is structured.
  74. @Hail

    By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist
     
    Who is Michelle Alexander?
    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/13/opinion/michelle-alexander/michelle-alexander-thumbLarge.jpg

    Biographical info on Michelle Alexander
    - 1964: marriage of Michelle Alexander's White mother (Oregon origin) and Black father (Chicago); she characterizes her White mother's family and church as having opposed the union
    - 1967: Michelle Alexander is born in Chicago
    - 1970s: spends a few years in a planned, "sustainable living" community in the Champaign-Urbana metro area (Stelle, Illinois). Family often on the move in later 1970s and early 1980s as father has job trouble. Winds up back in mother's hometown in Oregon.
    - c.1985: graduates from high school in Ashland, Oregon (Census 2010: 90% White, 1% Black); receives affirmative action scholarship to Vanderbilt (Gertrude Vanderbilt Minority Scholarship) arranged by a connection of Michelle's White mother
    - 1989: graduates from Vanderbilt, majoring in Political Science
    - 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    - 1992-1998: "worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies" -- i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the "race hustle." Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    - 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    - 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    - 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a "joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity"
    - 2010: publishes book, "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness"
    - 2011: her first opinion column appears in New York Times. Never having come off the race-hustle gravy-train, the column opens:

    THE legal scholar Derrick A. Bell foresaw that mass incarceration, like earlier systems of racial control, would continue to exist...
     
    Michelle Alexander has had nine opinion columns published in the Times since 2011. As of Sept. 2018, she is a once-monthly opinion columnist. Her previous:

    The Newest Jim Crow
    Recent criminal justice reforms contain the seeds of a frightening system of “e-carceration.”

    By MICHELLE ALEXANDER / Nov. 9, 2018
     
    - 2016-Present: Visiting Professor of Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.

    But the question remains, "Is She Black Enough?"

    See Exhibit A:

    https://images.c-span.org/Files/cf2/20170610201611002_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.576.no_border.width.1024.jpg

    (Biographical info above mainly from an article on Michelle Alexander appearing in Vanderbilt Magazine, Dec. 2013)

    The ironic thing for Miss Blackety Black Black is that immigration especially hurts working class blacks because immigrants compete with them for low skilled jobs. But not for jobs as Race Hustlers so I guess it doesn’t really affect her.

    • Replies: @ic1000
    Sapir-Whorf again. We (= Western civ) needs a catchy word for the opposite of noblesse oblige that covers the range from "let them eat cake" to "let's you and him fight."

    Helping realize the dreams of some fraction of the 900 million wannabe Americans isn't going to harm the social or economic prospects of a Michelle Alexander. Or any of her intersectional Pokemon-points-gentry comrades.

    Ordinary Americans are oblivious to how enthralling it is to be of the 1% in a country like Brazil. We can only imagine the look of gratitude on one of our servitor's faces, when we deign to engage their child as an assistant groundskeeper or apprentice maid. Or their looks of envy as they contemplate the opportunities that our children enjoy.

    Yes, thinks Michelle Alexander, it's great to be me in the Current Year.

  75. Whites will be replaced. And good riddance. It’s unbecoming to watch you white deadends squeal like pigs in the face of inevitable.

    • Replies: @Meretricious
    no, the makers will just abandon the takers--call it EBT No More--the takers will regress to their taker mean
    , @Sgt. Joe Friday
    "Tiny Duck." Whose handle is that? Bret Stephens maybe?
  76. Minor point, but how did we get from Ms. Serrano-Hernandez to Mr. Vargas? How should I know if I should even get a rat’s behind for either of them? Oh yeah, if they cross the border, they’re home free, and I should just write the cheque to the IRS to cover my obligations to them and the rest of the aspirational-American world.

    Yep, yesterday’s Illegal-Aliens are today’s Aspirational-Americans.

    “… none of us who were born here did anything to deserve our citizenship,

    Speak for yourself, b****! I wore a uniform, had lead buzzing past my head, and killed a few commies for mommy, so I certainly deserve mine.

  77. The progressive obsession with slavery in our historical past always leads them to overstate its contribution to America’s current wealth and power. It was the North’s industrialization that was crucial to making the U.S. an economic powerhouse in the 20th Century, as well as the key to the Union’s success in the Civil War. Progressives have a myopic view of history not to mention a set of beliefs so contradictory they couldn’t reason their way out of a trash can.

  78. Black women are well known for organizing prosperous healthy societies with complex economies historically..

    Alexander ‘2020

  79. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    So I get the Sulzberger fortune – good news!

    Reaching for a radically more humane immigration system is not pie-in-the-sky, utopian dreaming. But it does require a certain measure of humility on the part of those of us who have benefited from birthright citizenship. Rather than viewing immigrants as seeking something that we, Americans, have a moral right to withhold from them, we ought to begin by acknowledging that none of us who were born here did anything to deserve our citizenship, and yet all of us — no matter where we were born — deserve compassion and basic human rights.

    So, we should form militias and autodefensas and drive the invaders out. Then we’ll have done something to deserve our citizenship. Gotcha.

    But for slavery, genocide and colonization, we would not be the wealthiest, most powerful nation in the world — in fact, our nation would not even exist. This is not hyperbole; it’s history. There’s good reason some Mexicans say: “We didn’t cross the border. The border crossed us.” That is, in fact, what happened.

    I’m in favor of people who say stuff like this being stripped of their US citizenship and expatriated. They’re pleading guilty to receiving stolen goods, right? But they don’t get to assign guilt to anyone else.

  80. There’s good reason some Mexicans say: “We didn’t cross the border. The border crossed us.” That is, in fact, what happened.

    Everybody got that? Non-Americans get hereditary rights to territory. Americans don’t. Apparently this is some kind of racial caste thing.

  81. @Jack D
    TBH, the places where we Invade the World are mostly not the same as the places where we Invite the World. Invade the World and Invite the World are each independently dumb ideas in their own right and don't need to be linked together to be considered dumb.

    Honduras has been a shitty place more or less forever and if the United States did not exist or if we had a completely isolationist foreign policy, it would still be a shitty place. In fact, if you look at the times and places in Latin America where American influence has been expelled (Cuba, Venezuela, etc.) things are even shittier without American "interference". AFAIK, Hillary did absolutely nothing to make Honduras even worse than it already was. She probably couldn't even find the place on a map. Not everything that is bad in the world is the fault of the US.

    Honduras has been a shitty place more or less forever and if the United States did not exist or if we had a completely isolationist foreign policy, it would still be a shitty place.

    That’s true, but immigration from Central America only really picked up after our most recent involvement there in the late 70s and 1980s. Just as Somalis only started to come here after we intervened in Somalia in 1993. And of course, there were the Southeast Asians who came here in the wake of the Vietnam War. And one almost never heard of Afghanis here, until 2001. Since 1965, whenever we have gotten militarily involved in some country, it unleashes streams of immigrants from the affected area. And, of course, there are streams from every place else as well. But the Invade-the-Word part of the formula is not unlinked to the Invite-the-World part.

  82. This is a pretty good argument for imperialism, too.

    After all, what right do these people in shithole countries have to anything, just because they were born there?

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
  83. @Jack D
    TBH, the places where we Invade the World are mostly not the same as the places where we Invite the World. Invade the World and Invite the World are each independently dumb ideas in their own right and don't need to be linked together to be considered dumb.

    Honduras has been a shitty place more or less forever and if the United States did not exist or if we had a completely isolationist foreign policy, it would still be a shitty place. In fact, if you look at the times and places in Latin America where American influence has been expelled (Cuba, Venezuela, etc.) things are even shittier without American "interference". AFAIK, Hillary did absolutely nothing to make Honduras even worse than it already was. She probably couldn't even find the place on a map. Not everything that is bad in the world is the fault of the US.

    “Honduras has been a shitty place more or less forever…”

    Only until European jackbooting. Thanks, international fruit companies!

    “What she says is true, but most non-Americans have ZERO legitimate interest in become Americans…”

    And you know this…how?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Right, before Europeans, Honduras was a paradise. Well they did practice human sacrifice, but other than that...

    Can you explain to me what legitimate interest Hondurans have in becoming US citizens?
    , @bomag

    Only until European jackbooting.
     
    Only? Hyperbolize much?

    From my experience, Honduras isn't that bad. All this caterwauling about needing to ship them here to save their lives is more Narrative development.

    All the blaming and demonizing of the European is a convenience to justify non-performance of your usual pets, but it is a damaging strategy in the long run. Of what do you think Hondurans are ultimately capable? Do you think they can pick up their trash; repair their facilities; police their own crime; or are they so crippled by European influence that they are incapable of anything unless they move to a European influenced country and degrade the place as a form of therapy?

  84. @Buzz Mohawk

    On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?
     
    Perhaps none, but this isn't a moral question. This is a matter of natural law, the laws of nature.

    This is our land. Our people took it, fair and square. (Well, mine did. I don't know about yours.)

    One way to pull ourselves free of these word tricksters is to just change the rules back to what they really are. (In any argument, especially an annoying, deceptive one, look for the givens, which in this case are "moral grounds.")

    Does a mountain lion ask for moral permission to take a territory and eat what lives on it? No. We are a species of animals too, with essentially the same needs and drives. We live by the same natural law that is unavoidable. Right now, others are applying that law to our land, while their intellectual class tricks our people with words.

    Steve's bunny moved into the back yard. A raptor moved into the trees and tried to hunt and eat him. The bunny built a bunker and held his living space. We are no different.

    “This is our land. Our people took it, fair and square.”

    LOL, you really have a strange way of equating “fair and square” with conniving and lying.

    “This is a matter of natural law, the laws of nature.”

    The term “natural law” is derived from the belief that human morality comes from nature. Everything in nature has a purpose, including humans. In short, any law that is good is moral, and any moral law is good. Stated another way–Natural Law is a moral theory of jurisprudence, which maintains that law should be based on morality and ethics.

    In other words, it is a question of morality.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    LOL. Not sure if I should even reply to you, but you fell for my joke:

    “This is our land. Our people took it, fair and square.”

    LOL, you really have a strange way of equating “fair and square” with conniving and lying.

     

    That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land. We live here. My ancestors took and conquered it and made it a place everyone else wants to live in.

    The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds -- just like the mountain lion I mentioned, and just like my people.


    “This is a matter of natural law, the laws of nature.”

    The term “natural law” is derived from...
     

    Call it the law of the jungle then. I don't care. I don't think my countrymen should care either, because it is reality, now staring them in the face.

    Somewere in there among your books and Wikipedia pages, Mr. Corvinus, many great men have argued well that there is a place for private property in natural law. This is our property, and we can have the will to keep others from trespassing. It is up to us to decide.

    But again, call it the law of the jungle, if you like. You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do, and who produce everything you depend on for your life. Animals and plants do not ask the question. Where they live is their space, and they often come under challenges to their living space.

    Immigration is now a question of environmental biology. This is our habitat.

  85. she reveals her agenda immediately (give her credit for that):

    “On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?”

    LOL. On philosophical grounds she is absolutely correct. We might ask her in response, “Hey, Michelle, how does one get admitted to Stanford Law with a 110 IQ?”

  86. on what moral grounds can we greet immigrants with tear gas and lock them in for-profit detention camps

    Fortunately, Auschwitz was a non-profit, or the people inside would have been mistreated.

  87. @Lummard
    Michelle Alexander is a racial agit-prop writer, who argues that disparity of incarceration rates are the new version of slavery and segregation, and we won't ever be truly equal unless races are incarcerated at equal rates.

    Michelle Alexander is a racial agit-prop writer, who argues that disparity of incarceration rates are the new version of slavery and segregation, and we won’t ever be truly equal unless races are incarcerated at equal rates.

    Disparate impact means that the War on Drugs is really a war on blacks, and therefore must be stopped. By the same measure, the war on “deadbeat dads” is also a war on blacks, yet the NYT will not be calling for it to end. Because Intersectional Pokemon Points, or something.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Disparate impact means that the War on Drugs is really a war on blacks..."

    Actually, had you been paying attention, it's a war on whites.

    https://www.npr.org/2017/11/04/562137082/why-is-the-opioid-epidemic-overwhelmingly-white
  88. After all, none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    How about this:

    From here on out, any baby born here, whether their parents crossed the border yesterday or their ancestors came over on the Mayflower, acquires provisional citizenship at birth. When you turn 18, you apply for full citizenship. You have to take the test about civics, history, all that. You pass, you’re a full citizen. You fail, you get deported to the country of the government’s choosing.

    Fair enough?

    • Replies: @njguy73
    And yes, this would apply to Natives and descendants of slaves. I don't care if you landed on Plymouth Rock or if Plymouth Rock landed on you. No one just gets citizenship anyone. Let's make everyone earn it.
  89. She’s not stupid, but she actually believes this drivel. Therefore, it’s a cult.

  90. @njguy73

    After all, none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?
     
    How about this:

    From here on out, any baby born here, whether their parents crossed the border yesterday or their ancestors came over on the Mayflower, acquires provisional citizenship at birth. When you turn 18, you apply for full citizenship. You have to take the test about civics, history, all that. You pass, you're a full citizen. You fail, you get deported to the country of the government's choosing.

    Fair enough?

    And yes, this would apply to Natives and descendants of slaves. I don’t care if you landed on Plymouth Rock or if Plymouth Rock landed on you. No one just gets citizenship anyone. Let’s make everyone earn it.

  91. @Arclight
    If genocide, slavery, and colonialism are sure-fire ways to national prosperity, shouldn't most of Latin America be kicking our tail? After all, the conquistadors managed to wipe our not just one or two civilizations, but all three advanced societies in the New World and imported far more African slaves than the predecessors to the United States, not to mentioning conquering more territory.

    Anyway, she does a good job of framing immigration the way the left is trying to - as though we have no moral right to determine who gets into our country or under what conditions, and paints illegals as refugees rather than people who simply live in failing societies that want to move to a largely successful one. I understand the sentiment, but the desire for a more comfortable existence doesn't create an obligation on the American public to take in whomever shows up.

    After all, the conquistadors managed to wipe our not just one or two civilizations, but all three advanced societies in the New World and imported far more African slaves than the predecessors to the United States, not to mentioning conquering more territory.

    Yeah, Spain was kicking tail for a while, then this thing happened in 1588.

  92. As I often say, liberals are half right, just not in the way they think they are.

    In this case, the NYT is right that no [liberals] deserve their citizenship. Inasmuch as many of them are actively undermining citizenship, for justice to prevail they should be deprived of citizenship and ejected into exile immediately, but obviously this is not the conclusion the NYT wants anyone to draw.

    As American liberals are the most solipsistic people on earth, they assume that just because they never did anything to deserve citizenship, it must be the case that no one else ever did either. This is wrong, of course, but they don’t see that. They apparently do subconsciously register their own unworthiness of citizenship though, and seek to dilute it away by drowning it in the unworthiness of everyone else getting citizenship too. As usual, the liberal cure is even worse than the disease.

  93. @Jack D
    Yes, it's really the same thing. Do any of us DESERVE our property, any more than we DESERVE our citizenship? Zhivago inherited his family home - he did nothing to deserve it, so it was not wrong to force him to share it with 12 other families just as it is not wrong to force us to share the US with the entire population of Latin America. It's just some accident of birth that we were born on Magic Dirt and they were born on Tragic Dirt, just as it was an accident that Zhivago was born to a family of landed gentry and not as a serf. You just snip some wires on the fence and sneak under and viola, justice is restored. What could be simpler?

    “Zhivago inherited his family home – he did nothing to deserve it, so it was not wrong to force him to share it with 12 other families”

    Yes, this is the left all over. It’s also people like Warren Buffet, in regard to inheritance generally. He wants YOU to leave your children nothing, whereas his kids will be alright, no matter how his estate is structured.

  94. Steve, some crackerjack discussion about Taleb’s recent diatribe against IQ is going on over at Vox Day’s blog. Vox and his commenters are giving Taleb the bath.

  95. ‘Diversity’, mass immigration, open borders – these are for Whites ONLY!

    Why are these White ‘Privileges’?

    Because Anti racist is CODE for ANTI WHITE!
    Because Diversity is CODE for White G-

  96. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    In one sense, nothing is earned (life is just a bunch of chemical reactions), which means you simply cannot use “earnedness” as any sort of criterion for choosing moral rules. No rules would satisfy the criterion.

    In another sense (the one that recognizes human agency), our citizenship *is* earned. We are not atoms disconnected from our predecessors and our fellow members of society. We produced or “earned” what others want.

    Either way, as always, the pro-immigration argument is stupid, and we can devote our inquiry to determining whether the proponent is stupid or mendacious.

  97. @Buzz Mohawk

    On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?
     
    Perhaps none, but this isn't a moral question. This is a matter of natural law, the laws of nature.

    This is our land. Our people took it, fair and square. (Well, mine did. I don't know about yours.)

    One way to pull ourselves free of these word tricksters is to just change the rules back to what they really are. (In any argument, especially an annoying, deceptive one, look for the givens, which in this case are "moral grounds.")

    Does a mountain lion ask for moral permission to take a territory and eat what lives on it? No. We are a species of animals too, with essentially the same needs and drives. We live by the same natural law that is unavoidable. Right now, others are applying that law to our land, while their intellectual class tricks our people with words.

    Steve's bunny moved into the back yard. A raptor moved into the trees and tried to hunt and eat him. The bunny built a bunker and held his living space. We are no different.

    Steve Sailer had a rabbit;
    A raptor tried to grab it.
    The bunny built a bunker
    Down into which to hunker.

    • LOL: Charles Pewitt
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    There are no brier patches in Studio City?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMcfTRDNBkM
  98. @Hail

    By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist
     
    Who is Michelle Alexander?
    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/13/opinion/michelle-alexander/michelle-alexander-thumbLarge.jpg

    Biographical info on Michelle Alexander
    - 1964: marriage of Michelle Alexander's White mother (Oregon origin) and Black father (Chicago); she characterizes her White mother's family and church as having opposed the union
    - 1967: Michelle Alexander is born in Chicago
    - 1970s: spends a few years in a planned, "sustainable living" community in the Champaign-Urbana metro area (Stelle, Illinois). Family often on the move in later 1970s and early 1980s as father has job trouble. Winds up back in mother's hometown in Oregon.
    - c.1985: graduates from high school in Ashland, Oregon (Census 2010: 90% White, 1% Black); receives affirmative action scholarship to Vanderbilt (Gertrude Vanderbilt Minority Scholarship) arranged by a connection of Michelle's White mother
    - 1989: graduates from Vanderbilt, majoring in Political Science
    - 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    - 1992-1998: "worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies" -- i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the "race hustle." Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    - 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    - 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    - 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a "joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity"
    - 2010: publishes book, "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness"
    - 2011: her first opinion column appears in New York Times. Never having come off the race-hustle gravy-train, the column opens:

    THE legal scholar Derrick A. Bell foresaw that mass incarceration, like earlier systems of racial control, would continue to exist...
     
    Michelle Alexander has had nine opinion columns published in the Times since 2011. As of Sept. 2018, she is a once-monthly opinion columnist. Her previous:

    The Newest Jim Crow
    Recent criminal justice reforms contain the seeds of a frightening system of “e-carceration.”

    By MICHELLE ALEXANDER / Nov. 9, 2018
     
    - 2016-Present: Visiting Professor of Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.

    But the question remains, "Is She Black Enough?"

    See Exhibit A:

    https://images.c-span.org/Files/cf2/20170610201611002_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.576.no_border.width.1024.jpg

    (Biographical info above mainly from an article on Michelle Alexander appearing in Vanderbilt Magazine, Dec. 2013)

    Ashland, Oregon is one of the zip codes identified as an out-of-touch bubble by Charles Murray. It is a slice of Berkeley dropped into the woods midway between SF and Portland.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Ashland, Oregon is one of the zip codes identified as an out-of-touch bubble by Charles Murray. It is a slice of Berkeley dropped into the woods midway between SF and Portland.

     

    Ashland, Kentucky is quite different:

    https://www.areavibes.com/ashland-ky/employment/




    http://www.womenofgreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/helping_rural_women5.jpg


    But at least it ain't Beattyville:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/12/beattyville-kentucky-and-americas-poorest-towns
    , @Hail
    "Ashland, Oregon" has never made an appearance on the iSteve blog's nearly 17 years online, until this thread.

    It is in Jackson County, Oregon:

    https://www.worldatlas.com/img/us-county/3061-jackson-county-oregon.jpg

    Jackson County
    1970 population: 95,000 (of which 12,000 in Ashland)
    2020 population: ca. 225,000 [<1% Black] (of which 21,000 in Ashland)

    The population declined from near 100% White in 1970 to a mere 85-90% White today. This means a net gain of over 100,000 Whites. Source of these Whites? Most likely explanation would seem to be California refugees:

    [Ashland] lies along Interstate 5 approximately 16 miles (26 km) north of the California border
     

    Historically, Ashland has been something of a political outlier in southwest Oregon. In the presidential election of 1860 [population: 327], Ashland favored Abraham Lincoln while its neighbors strongly preferred pro-slavery candidates. In the early 1900s [1910 population: 5,020], Ashland voters supported women's suffrage and prohibition, generally out of step with the rest of the region. In more recent elections, liberal Ashland has supported tax levies and environmental regulations opposed by voters elsewhere in Jackson and nearby counties. Critics sometimes refer to the city as the People's Republic of Ashland.
     
    Current mayor of Ashland: John Stromberg (Scandinavian surname).

    A native Californian, he has lived in Oregon for 25 years. He and his wife resided in Eugene for 14 years prior to moving to Ashland in 2000
     
    Left California in 1986 for Oregon. The mayor himself a California refugee?
  99. @Jack D
    The ironic thing for Miss Blackety Black Black is that immigration especially hurts working class blacks because immigrants compete with them for low skilled jobs. But not for jobs as Race Hustlers so I guess it doesn't really affect her.

    Sapir-Whorf again. We (= Western civ) needs a catchy word for the opposite of noblesse oblige that covers the range from “let them eat cake” to “let’s you and him fight.”

    Helping realize the dreams of some fraction of the 900 million wannabe Americans isn’t going to harm the social or economic prospects of a Michelle Alexander. Or any of her intersectional Pokemon-points-gentry comrades.

    Ordinary Americans are oblivious to how enthralling it is to be of the 1% in a country like Brazil. We can only imagine the look of gratitude on one of our servitor’s faces, when we deign to engage their child as an assistant groundskeeper or apprentice maid. Or their looks of envy as they contemplate the opportunities that our children enjoy.

    Yes, thinks Michelle Alexander, it’s great to be me in the Current Year.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    WEDDINGS; Michelle Alexander, Carter Stewart
    MARCH 24, 2002
    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/24/style/weddings-michelle-alexander-carter-stewart.html

    This loony, crew cutted anarchist married a white dude as far as I can tell.
    Good post and Obama sure a gave a boost to the mulatto overseer class. Their rhetoric is limitless these days.

  100. Answering these questions may be easy legally, but they’re [sic] more difficult morally.

    No, answering these moral questions is easy.

  101. That arguement lacks valid premises and is illogical. Congrats NYT, you hired a bonafide idiot. Hopefully she will end up in academia.

  102. @ic1000
    Sapir-Whorf again. We (= Western civ) needs a catchy word for the opposite of noblesse oblige that covers the range from "let them eat cake" to "let's you and him fight."

    Helping realize the dreams of some fraction of the 900 million wannabe Americans isn't going to harm the social or economic prospects of a Michelle Alexander. Or any of her intersectional Pokemon-points-gentry comrades.

    Ordinary Americans are oblivious to how enthralling it is to be of the 1% in a country like Brazil. We can only imagine the look of gratitude on one of our servitor's faces, when we deign to engage their child as an assistant groundskeeper or apprentice maid. Or their looks of envy as they contemplate the opportunities that our children enjoy.

    Yes, thinks Michelle Alexander, it's great to be me in the Current Year.

    WEDDINGS; Michelle Alexander, Carter Stewart
    MARCH 24, 2002
    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/24/style/weddings-michelle-alexander-carter-stewart.html

    This loony, crew cutted anarchist married a white dude as far as I can tell.
    Good post and Obama sure a gave a boost to the mulatto overseer class. Their rhetoric is limitless these days.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    Michelle Alexander's hubby's daddy is a director of the New York Times Company. Of course he is!

    He is a son of Isabel and Donald M. Stewart of Chicago. His mother is the executive director of the Chicago Foundation for Women, a philanthropic organization, and was until 2000 the executive director of Girls Incorporated, a national youth-development agency based in New York. His father is the president of the Chicago Community Trust, a philanthropic organization that gives money to education, social service and arts organizations. He is also a director of The New York Times Company.

     

    , @Jack D
    He ain't no white dude. Whitish Talented Tenth but not white.

    https://www.spelman.edu/about-us/office-of-the-president/past-presidents/donald-stewart

  103. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Michelle Alexander:

    Answering these questions may be easy legally, but they’re more difficult morally. After all, none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?
     
    I guess one could ask: Who is to say anyone deserves to live? What have humans done as individuals to earn our first breaths upon birth?

    Elites successfully pushing open borders lawlessness will eventually lead to deadly back-and-forth battles, with people getting permanently ‘moderated at whim’ in large numbers—and any overarching societal “morality” will go out the window, at least for a while:

    “I know a lot of people who deserve to die.”

    https://thecinemacritic.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/natural20born20killers1.jpg

    More Alexander:

    The deeper question raised isn’t whether our borders should be open or closed (generally a false dichotomy) but rather how we ought to manage immigration in a manner that honors the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of all concerned.
     
    Mad Libs version 2:

    The deeper question raised isn’t whether [someone sexually consents or doesn’t] (generally a false dichotomy) but rather how we ought to manage [penetration] in a manner that honors the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of all concerned.
     

    Illuminating ‘Mad Libs’ wordsmithing in your comment.

    Michelle Alexander wrote,

    Answering these questions may be easy legally, but they’re more difficult morally. After all, none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    So I guess Ms. Alexander is an ardent and committed Right-To-Lifer. Or does she lecture her lessers that such arguments cannot possibly apply to the unborn, because Reasons.

  104. Citizenship, like breathing, is bequeathed by one’s parents. We haven’t ‘earned’ the right to breathe. It is a gift. We may choose to abandon our parental gifts like citizenship and breathing, or we may choose to pass them along to offspring of our own.

    Nations are born out of blood. Blood is what creates borders. Name a nation other than perhaps Iceland not born of blood? And once birthed, Nations are build of toil and sweat. We inherit the results of our forebears toil and expect to be able to pass along the results of our own toil to our offspring.

    Now along come these immigrants/invaders demanding that we grant them what our ancestors labored and died to create for us. How is this any different from some stranger demanding to be cut into my father’s Will?

    The welfare state only makes matters so much worse. Not only are they demanding a share of my inheritance, they’re demanding that I and my children support them (70+% of them anyway) forever. They demand not just what my forebears bequeathed me, but demand as well my servitude and the servitude of my descendants.

    Either these pro-immigration people are too fundamentally stupid to comprehend where nations originate and how they’re built or they’re pure parasites (or both). In either case, it’s long past time we call them out on their criminal schemes and at very minimum fine them the entirety of their own inheritances and confiscate the results of their toils (if any). More importantly, they must be prevented from procreation so that our children will not be burdened with yet more generations of parasitic retards.

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    Permit me to offer more than the utilitarian argument regarding the limits of the Welfare State regarding national borders.

    Whether born out of strife and blood sacrifice, nations are the outcome of the Treaty of Westphalia, which people tell me, was instituted to end a long, continental-scale war where a Catholic Prince "over here" had an arthropod crawling along his ascending colon regarding some Protestant heritics tolerated by a prince "over there."

    The notion is is that you would compartmentalize worries within each nation state about what religion a person observed, what kinds of food they ate and when, what group loyalties they expressed, how they resolved grievances with their neighbors, whether they cleaned snow off the sidewalk in front of their house, where they deposited their garbage, the propensity for playing loud music at 2 AM, their attitudes towards discharging firearms in public, attitudes towards the consumption of intoxicating or mind-altering substances, their norms regarding not only consent in intimate interpersonal contact, between a man and a woman or otherwise but also plain ordinary contracts and financial arrangements, the level of shame incentivizing a person to not live off the resources of their neighbors, and so on.

    I guess the iSteve aphorism "Invade the World, invite the World" means that if "we" violate this Treaty by involving ourselves in the affairs of other nation states regarding the aforementioned list of concerns (did I leave any out?), this shames us into opening our borders to people from the places where we meddled in violation of at least the spirit of that treaty? But everyone around here is aware of this bargain, hence the isolationism often expressed here, although many of our Leftist brethren claim that having already meddled mightily still meddling in Mexico and Meso-America, we cannot exclude anyone from at least those places?

    As a consequence, unauthorized Lutherans are allowed to cross into our realm (those Norwegians I have been warning people around here about), but we are not permitted to force their conversion to Roman Catholicism once they are here? What about the cruise ships stuffed with Scandinavians that just appeared in New York Harbor and the strident demands of Lutheran pastors that they be given free bus tickets to Wisconsin, even though the Catholic Germans in that place don't want them around? Along with the claims that Lutherans are industrious and will do the jobs Catholics won't do, although I have seen my share of Lutherans loafing around, and the quality of their workmanship is questionable by German standards?

    The problem with Open Borders is in that it will resolve into the kind of war and lower levels of strife between people with different cultures that the Treaty of Westphalia was intended to end?

  105. @Ben Kurtz
    Ms. Alexander sure does hate the civilization built by Whitey.

    She is a walking advertisement for why certain of those Constitutional amendements which extended the franchise to previously ineligible groups were mistakes of nation-ending proportion.

    I happen to like this society which we and our ancestors built, and would like to preserve it for my children. I fear it will take some strong medicine.

    Ms. Alexander sure does hate the civilization built by Whitey.

    To be precise, she hates her mother’s race and ca. 60-65%+ of her own ancestry.

    Just as a famous misattribution had it of Obama:

    (This line is actually from none other than Steve Sailer paraphrasing Dreams of My Father)

  106. After reading a bit on all the advances in genetics, I suppose Ms. Alexander will be woke and realize that none of us did anything to deserve our genes either. And then what shall she propose?

  107. @EH
    Typo? I think should be: "Nobody is in favor of open borders. We just hate everybody who is against open borders."

    Thanks.

  108. @Tiny Duck.
    Whites will be replaced. And good riddance. It’s unbecoming to watch you white deadends squeal like pigs in the face of inevitable.

    no, the makers will just abandon the takers–call it EBT No More–the takers will regress to their taker mean

  109. @George
    Falling total fertility rate should be welcomed, population expert says
    Figures showing declining birth rates are ‘cause for celebration’, not alarm

    “I believe that one of the reasons why Angela Merkel took the million refugees was because she desperately needed to boost her working population,” said Harper.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/26/falling-total-fertility-rate-should-be-welcomed-population-expert-says

    It does appear the number of employed persons in Germany has increased:
    https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/employed-persons

    It does appear the number of employed persons in Germany has increased:

    With a million new welfare dependents more Germans must work to support them..

  110. @Corvinus
    "Honduras has been a shitty place more or less forever..."

    Only until European jackbooting. Thanks, international fruit companies!

    "What she says is true, but most non-Americans have ZERO legitimate interest in become Americans..."

    And you know this...how?

    Right, before Europeans, Honduras was a paradise. Well they did practice human sacrifice, but other than that…

    Can you explain to me what legitimate interest Hondurans have in becoming US citizens?

    • Replies: @ic1000
    > Can you explain to me what legitimate interest Hondurans have in becoming US citizens?

    Oh, that's easy, both the WaPo and the NYT have explained it to me. The MS-13 gang was started by a prior wave of illegal Salvadoran immigrants, who came to Los Angeles (at employers' invitations to drive down wages for menial jobs, thus turning them into Jobs Americans Just Won't Do, points that go mysteriously unmentioned).

    As a white American, it's your fault that when some of these illegal immigrants were deported or otherwise returned home to El Salvador, they established local MS-13 franchises there. You can atone for a small portion of your racist guilt by conferring U.S. citizenship to those living in neighboring Honduras. QED.
    , @Corvinus
    "Right, before Europeans, Honduras was a paradise."

    To the people who lived there, it was a paradise before the Europeans spoiled it.

    "Well they did practice human sacrifice..."

    Separate the fact from the fiction.

    https://allthatsinteresting.com/human-sacrifice

    Now let's go back to your statement "most non-Americans have ZERO legitimate interest in become Americans…” How do you know?
  111. @George
    "on what moral grounds " Self interest + democracy.

    If you want to get high brow about the discussion, the question is what is or is not constitutional or perhaps is there a 'natural right' to immigrate.

    On an economic or even religious level, the question is if US foreign policy, aka imperialism, is propelling the need to immigrate. It is not obvious that Honduran domestic policy would change all that much if US foreign policy changed, but maybe Hillary did destroy the Honduran economy like she destroyed Libya.

    perhaps is there a ‘natural right’ to immigrate

    That would run up against the natural right of current residents to reserve the country and it’s resources for present and future cohorts.

  112. @George
    Falling total fertility rate should be welcomed, population expert says
    Figures showing declining birth rates are ‘cause for celebration’, not alarm

    “I believe that one of the reasons why Angela Merkel took the million refugees was because she desperately needed to boost her working population,” said Harper.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/26/falling-total-fertility-rate-should-be-welcomed-population-expert-says

    It does appear the number of employed persons in Germany has increased:
    https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/employed-persons

    Look at that 10 year chart, can you pin point 2014 on that?

  113. @YetAnotherAnon
    Did the article say if her father left her mother, and how old she was at the time?

    Did the article say if her father left her mother, and how old she was at the time?

    Don’t black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Don’t black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?
     
    Do you mean the lowest marriage rates? Ninety-two percent of the children of black fathers and women of another race are born out of wedlock.
    , @Anon

    Don’t black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?
     
    It depends. White female / black male tends to be fairly stable. Black male / white female is something above 90% failure rate by year seven. It's an almost guaranteed path to single motherhood.
    , @Jack Armstrong
    It’s hard to get good stats but if two people as much in-love as Nicole and O.J. (or Barack, Sr. and Stanley) can’t make it work … the fog of systematized racism miasmating the USA must be far greater than we can imagine.
    , @Saxon
    Only when the white in it is the man does it have a divorce rate lower than the white:white baseline by something like 4%, and that's probably because near zero white men actually find black women attractive so it takes a real fetishist for starters. The reverse, when it's a white woman, is almost guaranteed single motherhood.
  114. Okay. No one “deserves” citizenship. Michelle Alexander should walk the talk by renouncing her U.S. citizenship as an inspiration to others.

    • Replies: @njguy73

    Okay. No one “deserves” citizenship. Michelle Alexander should walk the talk by renouncing her U.S. citizenship as an inspiration to others.
     
    Or volunteering to transfer her citizenship to some undocumented person, and have her legal status changed to resident alien. Think that'll happen?
  115. Steve, I don’t read any articles like this anymore, instead I go straight to the comment section to see if there is any hope, surprisingly I am seeing green shots of sanity there, look at the comments for this article, they are probably 9:1 for calling this an insane article.

    • Replies: @krustykurmudgeon
    didn't you post on rrhelections at one point? I was hbdrealist. I always knew you were hiding your power level. A lot of the guys on there like shamlet are completely delusional. Only VBKC seemed to know the score (I also suspect he knows more than he's letting on)
  116. @PiltdownMan
    https://youtu.be/mq__Z-Z_Ofs

    "There was living space for thirteen families! In this one house!"
     

    And Sharif Ali served in the Red Army? Who knew?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Omar Sharif, and yes his character was pressed into service as a combat physician.
    , @AnotherDad

    And Sharif Ali served in the Red Army? Who knew?
     
    And the Russian Imperial Army. Prince Faisal served in both as well.

    The Great War was a complicated affair. You have to deploy the talent you've got wherever it's needed.

    Aapparently is the approach some directors take as well.
  117. Mr. Sailer,

    I do believe the author is pandering to an American pathos that goes back well over a century. From Bill Nye’s Comic History of the U.S., written shortly after President Grover Cleveland’s resumption of office (my apologies, I quote at length):

    “When Patrick Henry put his old cast-iron spectacles on the top of his head and whooped for liberty, he did not know that some day we should have more of it that we knew what to do with. He little dreamed that the time would come when we should have more liberty than we could pay for. When Mr. Henry sawed the air and shouted for liberty or death, I do not believe that he knew the time would come when Liberty would stand on Bedloe’s Island and yearn for rest and change of scene.

    “It seems to me that we have too much liberty in this country in some ways. We have more liberty than we have money. We guarantee that every man in America shall fill himself up full of liberty at our expense, and the less of an American he is the more liberty he can have. Should he desire to enjoy himself, all he needs is a slight foreign accent and a willingness to mix up with politics as soon as he can get his baggage off the steamer. The more I study American institutions the more I regret that I was not born a foreigner so that I could have something to say about the management of our great land. If I could not be a foreigner, I believe that I should prefer to be a policeman or an Indian not taxed.

    “I am often led to ask, in the language of the poet, ‘Is civilization a failure, and is the Caucasian played out?’

    “Almost every one can have a good deal of fun in America except the American. He seems to be so busy paying his taxes that he has very little time to vote, or to mingle in society’s giddy whirl, or to mix up with the nobility. That is the reason why the alien who rides across the United States in the ‘Limited Mail’ and writes a book about us before breakfast wonders why we are always in a hurry. That also is the reason why we have to throw our meals into ourselves with such despatch, and hardly have time to maintain a warm personal friendship with out families.

    “We do not care much for wealth, but we have freedom, and freedom costs money. We have advertised to furnish a bunch of freedom to every man, woman, and child who comes to our shores, and we are going to deliver the goods whether we have any left for ourselves or not.

    “What would the great world beyond the seas say to us if some day the blue-eyed Oriental, with his heart full of love for our female seminaries and our old women’s homes, should land upon our coasts and crave freedom in car-load lots but find that we were using all the liberty ourselves? But what do we want of liberty, anyhow? It takes a man of leisure to enjoy liberty, and we have no leisure whatever. It is a good thing to keep in the house for the use of guests, but we don’t need it for ourselves.

    “Therefore we have a statue of Liberty Enlightening the World, because it shows that we keep Liberty on tap winter and summer. We want the whole broad world to remember that when it gets tired of oppression that it can come here to America and oppress us. We are used to it, and we rather like it. If we don’t like it, we can get on the steamer and go abroad, where we may visit the effete old monarchies and have a high old time.

    “The sight of the Goddess of Liberty standing there in the New York harbor night and day, bathing her feet in the rippling sea, is a good thing. It is first-rate. It may also be productive of good in a direction that many have not thought of. As she stands there, day after day, bathing her feet in the broad Atlantic, perhaps some moss-grown alien landing on our shore and moving toward the Far West may fix the bright picture in his so-called mind, and, remembering how, on his arrival in New York, he saw liberty bathing her feet with impunity, he may be led in after-years to try it on himself.

    “More citizens and less voters will some day be adopted as the motto of the Republic.”

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    We want the whole broad world to remember that when it gets tired of oppression that it can come here to America and oppress us.
     
    Great stuff. Thanks.
  118. nobody deserves america, but as jews, we’ll bite the bullet and run this america thing, and decide who stays and who goes. it’s tough running the worst, most racist country in the world, but we’ll take one for the team and control this country for the next century or two. gosh, the things we do for you people.

  119. @Jack D
    Right, before Europeans, Honduras was a paradise. Well they did practice human sacrifice, but other than that...

    Can you explain to me what legitimate interest Hondurans have in becoming US citizens?

    > Can you explain to me what legitimate interest Hondurans have in becoming US citizens?

    Oh, that’s easy, both the WaPo and the NYT have explained it to me. The MS-13 gang was started by a prior wave of illegal Salvadoran immigrants, who came to Los Angeles (at employers’ invitations to drive down wages for menial jobs, thus turning them into Jobs Americans Just Won’t Do, points that go mysteriously unmentioned).

    As a white American, it’s your fault that when some of these illegal immigrants were deported or otherwise returned home to El Salvador, they established local MS-13 franchises there. You can atone for a small portion of your racist guilt by conferring U.S. citizenship to those living in neighboring Honduras. QED.

    • Replies: @Anon
    United Fruit, bigot.
  120. @Stan d Mute
    Citizenship, like breathing, is bequeathed by one’s parents. We haven’t ‘earned’ the right to breathe. It is a gift. We may choose to abandon our parental gifts like citizenship and breathing, or we may choose to pass them along to offspring of our own.

    Nations are born out of blood. Blood is what creates borders. Name a nation other than perhaps Iceland not born of blood? And once birthed, Nations are build of toil and sweat. We inherit the results of our forebears toil and expect to be able to pass along the results of our own toil to our offspring.

    Now along come these immigrants/invaders demanding that we grant them what our ancestors labored and died to create for us. How is this any different from some stranger demanding to be cut into my father’s Will?

    The welfare state only makes matters so much worse. Not only are they demanding a share of my inheritance, they’re demanding that I and my children support them (70+% of them anyway) forever. They demand not just what my forebears bequeathed me, but demand as well my servitude and the servitude of my descendants.

    Either these pro-immigration people are too fundamentally stupid to comprehend where nations originate and how they’re built or they’re pure parasites (or both). In either case, it’s long past time we call them out on their criminal schemes and at very minimum fine them the entirety of their own inheritances and confiscate the results of their toils (if any). More importantly, they must be prevented from procreation so that our children will not be burdened with yet more generations of parasitic retards.

    Permit me to offer more than the utilitarian argument regarding the limits of the Welfare State regarding national borders.

    Whether born out of strife and blood sacrifice, nations are the outcome of the Treaty of Westphalia, which people tell me, was instituted to end a long, continental-scale war where a Catholic Prince “over here” had an arthropod crawling along his ascending colon regarding some Protestant heritics tolerated by a prince “over there.”

    The notion is is that you would compartmentalize worries within each nation state about what religion a person observed, what kinds of food they ate and when, what group loyalties they expressed, how they resolved grievances with their neighbors, whether they cleaned snow off the sidewalk in front of their house, where they deposited their garbage, the propensity for playing loud music at 2 AM, their attitudes towards discharging firearms in public, attitudes towards the consumption of intoxicating or mind-altering substances, their norms regarding not only consent in intimate interpersonal contact, between a man and a woman or otherwise but also plain ordinary contracts and financial arrangements, the level of shame incentivizing a person to not live off the resources of their neighbors, and so on.

    I guess the iSteve aphorism “Invade the World, invite the World” means that if “we” violate this Treaty by involving ourselves in the affairs of other nation states regarding the aforementioned list of concerns (did I leave any out?), this shames us into opening our borders to people from the places where we meddled in violation of at least the spirit of that treaty? But everyone around here is aware of this bargain, hence the isolationism often expressed here, although many of our Leftist brethren claim that having already meddled mightily still meddling in Mexico and Meso-America, we cannot exclude anyone from at least those places?

    As a consequence, unauthorized Lutherans are allowed to cross into our realm (those Norwegians I have been warning people around here about), but we are not permitted to force their conversion to Roman Catholicism once they are here? What about the cruise ships stuffed with Scandinavians that just appeared in New York Harbor and the strident demands of Lutheran pastors that they be given free bus tickets to Wisconsin, even though the Catholic Germans in that place don’t want them around? Along with the claims that Lutherans are industrious and will do the jobs Catholics won’t do, although I have seen my share of Lutherans loafing around, and the quality of their workmanship is questionable by German standards?

    The problem with Open Borders is in that it will resolve into the kind of war and lower levels of strife between people with different cultures that the Treaty of Westphalia was intended to end?

    • Replies: @Rosie

    arthropod crawling along his ascending colon
     
    Lol!
  121. @Clyde
    WEDDINGS; Michelle Alexander, Carter Stewart
    MARCH 24, 2002
    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/24/style/weddings-michelle-alexander-carter-stewart.html

    This loony, crew cutted anarchist married a white dude as far as I can tell.
    Good post and Obama sure a gave a boost to the mulatto overseer class. Their rhetoric is limitless these days.

    Michelle Alexander’s hubby’s daddy is a director of the New York Times Company. Of course he is!

    He is a son of Isabel and Donald M. Stewart of Chicago. His mother is the executive director of the Chicago Foundation for Women, a philanthropic organization, and was until 2000 the executive director of Girls Incorporated, a national youth-development agency based in New York. His father is the president of the Chicago Community Trust, a philanthropic organization that gives money to education, social service and arts organizations. He is also a director of The New York Times Company.

  122. @ic1000
    > Can you explain to me what legitimate interest Hondurans have in becoming US citizens?

    Oh, that's easy, both the WaPo and the NYT have explained it to me. The MS-13 gang was started by a prior wave of illegal Salvadoran immigrants, who came to Los Angeles (at employers' invitations to drive down wages for menial jobs, thus turning them into Jobs Americans Just Won't Do, points that go mysteriously unmentioned).

    As a white American, it's your fault that when some of these illegal immigrants were deported or otherwise returned home to El Salvador, they established local MS-13 franchises there. You can atone for a small portion of your racist guilt by conferring U.S. citizenship to those living in neighboring Honduras. QED.

    United Fruit, bigot.

  123. @Inquiring Mind
    And Sharif Ali served in the Red Army? Who knew?

    Omar Sharif, and yes his character was pressed into service as a combat physician.

  124. @Clyde
    WEDDINGS; Michelle Alexander, Carter Stewart
    MARCH 24, 2002
    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/24/style/weddings-michelle-alexander-carter-stewart.html

    This loony, crew cutted anarchist married a white dude as far as I can tell.
    Good post and Obama sure a gave a boost to the mulatto overseer class. Their rhetoric is limitless these days.

    He ain’t no white dude. Whitish Talented Tenth but not white.

    https://www.spelman.edu/about-us/office-of-the-president/past-presidents/donald-stewart

    • Replies: @Clyde
    You can't tell the players without a scorecard! But even a scorecard is useless these days.
  125. @George
    Falling total fertility rate should be welcomed, population expert says
    Figures showing declining birth rates are ‘cause for celebration’, not alarm

    “I believe that one of the reasons why Angela Merkel took the million refugees was because she desperately needed to boost her working population,” said Harper.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/26/falling-total-fertility-rate-should-be-welcomed-population-expert-says

    It does appear the number of employed persons in Germany has increased:
    https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/employed-persons

    I read about a few months ago, that only abou 20 percent of the working age people that Merkel let in as refugees work (including part time jobs). Even if they all worked full-time in low paying jobs they would be a drain on German taxpayers and this does not include things like their high crime rate etc.

  126. There are many examples of biracial Black Power types like Michelle Alexander. This is lizard brain stuff. They are biracial, but one of those races will never claim them. The way Michelle Alexander sees it, being rejected from a race can really determine how you look at the world. Also it’s a pretty good living.

    Black Power doesn’t have much in the way of objectives. Alexander doesn’t really want all the mutts let out of jail. The main objective is to ruin whitey, so while supporting large-scale immigration may hurt blacks, it is much more important to ruin whitey’s country. Attacking law enforcement, protecting criminals, undermining immigration law, none of these things help black people. Bu they do hurt America.

    Alexander was raised by her white family, but personal experience doesn’t seem to matter much. Colin Kaepernick, deeply resentful of the people who raised him, identifies with the father who rejected him. Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine, radical cop hater who identifies with his father, who was part of the Mau-Mau rebellion and left his son at 16 months. Jesse Williams. Sean King I guess.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite

    Colin Kaepernick, deeply resentful of the people who raised him, identifies with the father who rejected him. Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine, radical cop hater who identifies with his father, who was part of the Mau-Mau rebellion and left his son at 16 months. Jesse Williams. Sean King I guess.
     
    Barry Soetero
    , @Clyde
    Crazy ain't it? Agree 100% on the psychology of what is going on with biracials like Michelle Alexander. Steve has posted her stuff before.
    Here is a top NY Times comment:

    Sue Mee
    Hartford CT Dec. 21
    If American citizens are not entitled to our borders, why is the author of this piece entitled to her home? Let a deserving person move in and move her out. As citizens, we work hard to make our own country greater, for example, by removing inequities as best we can but that does not mean we owe the entire world citizenship any more than we should give up our homes we worked hard for to a poor person. We cannot go to foreign countries and demand citizenship. Good citizens work hard to improve their own countries. Morality has little to do with the luck of the draw. My parents were not millionaires. That does not give me the right to break into someone else’s home and demand those benefits. Illegal immigration should continue to be unlawful and unacceptable.

    7 Replies 376 Recommend
     
  127. Anon[204] • Disclaimer says:

    Kaepernick probably identifies more with his girlfriend’s Arab-Muslim culture, he wouldn’t exactly look out of place in the Middle East were he able to drop his American mannerisms. This aspect is under-discussed, as no one wants to admit that he was basically whipped into politics by his older girlfriend. The narrative has to simultaneously regard him as an “American civil rights hero” while maintaining the otherwise far-left positions he holds. In the few unstructured statements he made some were critical of “felow mulatto” Obama.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A few of the Sayum funeral portraits from Roman Era Egypt look kind of like Kaepernick. He's an unusual-looking guy in modern America. Other unusual looking first generation crosses include Blake Griffin of the NBA, and the Olympic decathlon champ from Oregon, Ashton Eaton.

    My impression is that first generation black-white crosses like Kaepernick tend to be more idiosyncratic looking. But if somebody is 50-50 DNA after 3 or 12 generations of crosses, he tends to fall in the standard African-American range, just on the whiter looking end.

    Henry Harpending pointed to the Uighurs of Western China, currently being persecuted by Beijing. They are the result of a White - East Asian cross many generations ago. Today, they tend to look distinctly Uighur. But probably in the first generation, there was much more variety.

  128. @Tiny Duck.
    Whites will be replaced. And good riddance. It’s unbecoming to watch you white deadends squeal like pigs in the face of inevitable.

    “Tiny Duck.” Whose handle is that? Bret Stephens maybe?

  129. @indocon
    Steve, I don't read any articles like this anymore, instead I go straight to the comment section to see if there is any hope, surprisingly I am seeing green shots of sanity there, look at the comments for this article, they are probably 9:1 for calling this an insane article.

    didn’t you post on rrhelections at one point? I was hbdrealist. I always knew you were hiding your power level. A lot of the guys on there like shamlet are completely delusional. Only VBKC seemed to know the score (I also suspect he knows more than he’s letting on)

    • Replies: @indocon
    Yes I was, and I got banned from there by (((Moshe))) for pointing out that Israel had managed to get its demographic doom reversed by incentivizing certain kind of births, de-incentivizing other kind of births. After Trump win I think I was high on their hit list to get banned.

    The mods there were picture perfect example of coastal/country club Republicans , something we actually need to run against in future explicitly.
  130. @Corvinus
    "This is our land. Our people took it, fair and square."

    LOL, you really have a strange way of equating "fair and square" with conniving and lying.

    "This is a matter of natural law, the laws of nature."

    The term "natural law" is derived from the belief that human morality comes from nature. Everything in nature has a purpose, including humans. In short, any law that is good is moral, and any moral law is good. Stated another way--Natural Law is a moral theory of jurisprudence, which maintains that law should be based on morality and ethics.

    In other words, it is a question of morality.

    LOL. Not sure if I should even reply to you, but you fell for my joke:

    “This is our land. Our people took it, fair and square.”

    LOL, you really have a strange way of equating “fair and square” with conniving and lying.

    That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land. We live here. My ancestors took and conquered it and made it a place everyone else wants to live in.

    The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds — just like the mountain lion I mentioned, and just like my people.

    “This is a matter of natural law, the laws of nature.”

    The term “natural law” is derived from…

    Call it the law of the jungle then. I don’t care. I don’t think my countrymen should care either, because it is reality, now staring them in the face.

    Somewere in there among your books and Wikipedia pages, Mr. Corvinus, many great men have argued well that there is a place for private property in natural law. This is our property, and we can have the will to keep others from trespassing. It is up to us to decide.

    But again, call it the law of the jungle, if you like. You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do, and who produce everything you depend on for your life. Animals and plants do not ask the question. Where they live is their space, and they often come under challenges to their living space.

    Immigration is now a question of environmental biology. This is our habitat.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    “That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land.”

    LOL, you don’t know if you are coming or going. You state that “we” won this land “fair and square”, then backtrack and say there is no “fair and square”, that it is essentially a free for all. But it really depends upon who this “we” and “our” refers to. Unless you are able to directly trace both of your British Isles ancestors directly to colonial times, say prior to 1750, you are not part of this “we” or “our” or “us”. You have to go back.

    “The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds -- just like the mountain lion I mentioned, and just like my people.”



    Of course there were moral questions that were considered. Bartolomé de las Casas questioned the wisdom of the Spanish conquistadors in taking native land by force. He stressed that Amerindians ought to enjoy the same freedoms as any other people because God created them. William Penn proclaimed he would not exploit either the natives or the immigrants when developing his colony—“I would not abuse His love, nor act unworthy of His providence, and so defile what came to me clean.”

    “Call it the law of the jungle then. I don't care.”

    You get busted for not fully understanding the concept of natural law, and now you have the audacity to refer to the situation as the “law of the jungle”? Wow, just wow.

    “I don't think my countrymen should care either, because it is reality, now staring them in the face.”



    A number of your countrymen and countrywomen—whoever they are, as you have yet to clearly define them—are Christians, who do take into account morality. So how do you address their concerns?

    “This is our property, and we can have the will to keep others from trespassing. It is up to us to decide.”


    You do not speak for everyone. You only speak for yourself. When you talk about “our property”, you are talking about YOUR property. Which includes men and women who are opposed to your

    “You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do”

    Who are these “better men”? Would you put yourself in this category?

    "Immigration is now a question of environmental biology. This is our habitat."

    According to who/whom?

    , @syonredux

    That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land. We live here. My ancestors took and conquered it and made it a place everyone else wants to live in.

    The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds
     
    Dunson: Tell Don Diego, tell him that all the land north of that river's mine. Tell him to stay off of it.
    Fernandez: Oh, but the land is his.
    Dunson: Where did he get it?
    Fernandez: Oh many years ago by grant and patent, inscribed by the King of all of Spain.
    Dunson: You mean he took it away from whomever was here before. Indians maybe.
    Fernandez: Maybe so.
    Dunson: Well, I'm takin' it away from him.
    Fernandez: Others have thought as you, señor. Others have tried.
    Dunson: And you've always been good enough to stop 'em?
    Fernandez: Amigo, it is my work.
    Dunson: Pretty unhealthy job.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBPrLU4Zspo
  131. “After all, none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?”

    I’m too dumb to answer this question. I think maybe we should ask the Pritzker family, or Sam Walton’s kids, or the Rothschilds or the Marriott brothers or the Koch brothers or Laurene Powell-Jobs. They’re way smarter than I am. Perhaps they have some insight.

    • Agree: ic1000
  132. NYT: “None of Us Deserve Citizenship”

    Oh, so you only deserve that which you’ve earned, not what the circumstances of your birth have granted you. That logic would invalidate the affirmative action that produced what I call “the ignorant academic class” (which this professor author belongs to.)

  133. This nation was not built on genocide, slavery, and colonization.

    It was built on brain, guts, and a work ethic.

    My ancestors built this country. They fought in every war, served in government, and volunteered their services at every level.

    Their work entitles their descendant to citizenship and to a say in deciding who else should get it. It is called a nation.

  134. @Tiny Duck
    For many, the election of Barack Obama to the presidency symbolized the imminent birth of this new America, and many whites feared their privileged status, identity and way of life would die in the transition. The reaction was swift and fierce. It shouldn’t have been surprising.

    Donald Trump’s election represents a surge of resistance to this rapidly swelling river, an effort to build not just a wall but a dam. A new nation is struggling to be born, a multiracial, multiethnic, multifaith, egalitarian democracy in which every life and every voice truly matters. In recent years, we’ve seen glimpses of this new nation at Standing Rock, in the streets of Ferguson, in the eyes of the Dreamers, in the voices of teenagers from Parkland and Chicago, as well as at L.G.B.T. pride celebrations, the Women’s March and the camps of Occupy Wall Street. Confederate statues are coming down as new memorials and statutes are going up in Montgomery, Ala., and beyond, honoring victims of lynching as well as the courageous souls who fought for the abolition of slavery and the end of Jim Crow.

    If we pause long enough and consider where we stand in relationship to the centuries-long quest to create a truly equitable democracy, we may be able to see that the revolutionary river that brought us this far just might be the only thing that could possibly carry us to a place where we all belong.

    Your revolutionary river will break up into an fathomless morass of delta swamps once it reaches its destination.

  135. @Jack D
    Right, before Europeans, Honduras was a paradise. Well they did practice human sacrifice, but other than that...

    Can you explain to me what legitimate interest Hondurans have in becoming US citizens?

    “Right, before Europeans, Honduras was a paradise.”

    To the people who lived there, it was a paradise before the Europeans spoiled it.

    “Well they did practice human sacrifice…”

    Separate the fact from the fiction.

    https://allthatsinteresting.com/human-sacrifice

    Now let’s go back to your statement “most non-Americans have ZERO legitimate interest in become Americans…” How do you know?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    According to your link,

    cultures now considered to be highly influential and civilized saw human sacrifice as a necessary part of everyday life.
     
    Oh, well if they saw it as a part of everyday life, that makes it totally OK - we are told that they were highly influential (on whom?) and civilized, so ripping out people's beating hearts to placate the gods was OK.

    I'm sorry, but "civilized" and "practicing human sacrifice" are incompatible in my view. Would you be OK if we starting practicing human sacrifice on Central Americans? What if I told you that we'd like to make this a part of our everyday life, would that make it OK? Today's top story is that some Central American refugee kid dropped dead of natural causes while staying in a refugee shelter and this one death is a cause celebre, but that the Mayans and the Aztecs sacrificed people by the tens of thousands was "a necessary part of everyday life" so it's no big deal. I'm sorry but this is seriously fucked up.
    , @anon
    from your link:

    Blood was viewed as an incomparable source of nourishment for Mayan deities. In a time before scientific understanding, human blood became the ultimate offering and was kept flowing to protect their daily way of life.

    These sacrificial rituals were held in such high regard that only prisoners of war of the highest status could be used for them; other captives were typically sent into the labor force.

    The most common methods were decapitation and heart removal, neither of which would occur until the victim had been thoroughly tortured.
     
    whoever is behind the website seems to be proud of it
  136. @Buzz Mohawk
    LOL. Not sure if I should even reply to you, but you fell for my joke:

    “This is our land. Our people took it, fair and square.”

    LOL, you really have a strange way of equating “fair and square” with conniving and lying.

     

    That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land. We live here. My ancestors took and conquered it and made it a place everyone else wants to live in.

    The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds -- just like the mountain lion I mentioned, and just like my people.


    “This is a matter of natural law, the laws of nature.”

    The term “natural law” is derived from...
     

    Call it the law of the jungle then. I don't care. I don't think my countrymen should care either, because it is reality, now staring them in the face.

    Somewere in there among your books and Wikipedia pages, Mr. Corvinus, many great men have argued well that there is a place for private property in natural law. This is our property, and we can have the will to keep others from trespassing. It is up to us to decide.

    But again, call it the law of the jungle, if you like. You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do, and who produce everything you depend on for your life. Animals and plants do not ask the question. Where they live is their space, and they often come under challenges to their living space.

    Immigration is now a question of environmental biology. This is our habitat.

    “That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land.”

    LOL, you don’t know if you are coming or going. You state that “we” won this land “fair and square”, then backtrack and say there is no “fair and square”, that it is essentially a free for all. But it really depends upon who this “we” and “our” refers to. Unless you are able to directly trace both of your British Isles ancestors directly to colonial times, say prior to 1750, you are not part of this “we” or “our” or “us”. You have to go back.

    “The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds — just like the mountain lion I mentioned, and just like my people.”



    Of course there were moral questions that were considered. Bartolomé de las Casas questioned the wisdom of the Spanish conquistadors in taking native land by force. He stressed that Amerindians ought to enjoy the same freedoms as any other people because God created them. William Penn proclaimed he would not exploit either the natives or the immigrants when developing his colony—“I would not abuse His love, nor act unworthy of His providence, and so defile what came to me clean.”

    “Call it the law of the jungle then. I don’t care.”

    You get busted for not fully understanding the concept of natural law, and now you have the audacity to refer to the situation as the “law of the jungle”? Wow, just wow.

    “I don’t think my countrymen should care either, because it is reality, now staring them in the face.”



    A number of your countrymen and countrywomen—whoever they are, as you have yet to clearly define them—are Christians, who do take into account morality. So how do you address their concerns?

    “This is our property, and we can have the will to keep others from trespassing. It is up to us to decide.”


    You do not speak for everyone. You only speak for yourself. When you talk about “our property”, you are talking about YOUR property. Which includes men and women who are opposed to your

    “You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do”

    Who are these “better men”? Would you put yourself in this category?

    “Immigration is now a question of environmental biology. This is our habitat.”

    According to who/whom?

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Corvinus, You speak about property, almost as if it doesn't exist, but in terms of land or territory it certainly does. Long before the first European settler stepped on the American continents the indigenous peoples claimed and held territory. The Comanches warred on the Apaches, The Seneca warred on the Mohawk, who warred on the Huron, all over territory. People establish a culture in an area, respecting rules if not laws. I don't remember the NYT lamenting the fact that a white missionary had the temerity to set foot on a distant island and lost his life because of it. If I recall the narrative was that these people had the right to be left alone. Seems to me that people do have the right, moral and legal, to determine who is allowed on their "Property."
    , @Buzz Mohawk

    LOL, you don’t know if you are coming or going. You state that “we” won this land “fair and square”, then backtrack and say there is no “fair and square”, that it is essentially a free for all.
     
    You still don't get that my usage of "fair and square" is a joke! Your hyper intellectual literalism is a lot funnier than the joke. (I was going to say "your Aspergers," but I don't want insult anyone with that problem, even you.)

    Unless you are able to directly trace both of your British Isles ancestors directly to colonial times, say prior to 1750, you are not part of this “we” or “our” or “us”. You have to go back.
     
    Father's side traces back to New Haven Colony, now part of Connecticut, in the early 1600s. They were Puritans from England. Mother's side traces back to the original, white slaves in the Colonial South. They were "indentured servants" from England, predating black slaves.

    You get busted for not fully understanding the concept of natural law, and now you have the audacity to refer to the situation as the “law of the jungle”?
     
    If I am to trust you, I simply mis-named what I identify as a law of nature, not men. My position is that there has never been any morality to how one population replaces another, of any species. You can argue with me all you want, but I suggest you try to argue with the family of coyotes that has moved onto my land and eats the small animals that live here...

    Which takes me to this:


    “You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do”

    Who are these “better men”? Would you put yourself in this category?
     

    I have lived most of my life outside the urban world. Even before attending college, I built my own shelter on forest land and lived in it I have friends who are farmers, as in people who feed you. I do know more about natural life than you do. I can tell.

    Finally,


    When you talk about “our property”, you are talking about YOUR property.
     
    That is correct. As a citizen of the United States of America, I am one of its owners. As a shareholder, I do speak for myself and for many others who understand that immigration must be curtailed in order to preserve our quality of life for ourselves and our Posterity.
  137. “None of us deserves citizenship, but if anyone does, it’s pregnant Honduran women and their babies, who are more American than you.”

  138. 90% of law professors are hard left. They have high incomes and lots of free time for activism.

    We could throw a third or more of them out of work by ending federal student loans for law schools.

    About 35% of law graduates never become lawyers and never pay back their loans. Another big share get them forgiven.

    Law school loans are a giant subsidy for Alexander and her ilk. The unfortunate students who undertake these loans, while often not paying them back, still have their futures ruined by them. $1000 month payments if they ever do get professional jobs, 3 wasted prime years of their life in law school, no ability to get a mortgage afterward due to ruined credit rating.

    Where is failing AWOL Sec of Education Betsy DeVos?

    • Agree: Rosie, ic1000
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    90% of law professors are hard left. They have high incomes and lots of free time for activism.

    We could throw a third or more of them out of work by ending federal student loans for law schools.
     
    I agree. We should in general turn down the student loan spigot. I am also in favor of abolishing the practice of tenure. Make it easier to fire academics. Make them have to shift and worry about keeping their job like most other people have to. As you point out, one of the requirements for activism is having the free time - and the job security - to engage in it. We should deny that privilege to them.
  139. @Inquiring Mind
    Permit me to offer more than the utilitarian argument regarding the limits of the Welfare State regarding national borders.

    Whether born out of strife and blood sacrifice, nations are the outcome of the Treaty of Westphalia, which people tell me, was instituted to end a long, continental-scale war where a Catholic Prince "over here" had an arthropod crawling along his ascending colon regarding some Protestant heritics tolerated by a prince "over there."

    The notion is is that you would compartmentalize worries within each nation state about what religion a person observed, what kinds of food they ate and when, what group loyalties they expressed, how they resolved grievances with their neighbors, whether they cleaned snow off the sidewalk in front of their house, where they deposited their garbage, the propensity for playing loud music at 2 AM, their attitudes towards discharging firearms in public, attitudes towards the consumption of intoxicating or mind-altering substances, their norms regarding not only consent in intimate interpersonal contact, between a man and a woman or otherwise but also plain ordinary contracts and financial arrangements, the level of shame incentivizing a person to not live off the resources of their neighbors, and so on.

    I guess the iSteve aphorism "Invade the World, invite the World" means that if "we" violate this Treaty by involving ourselves in the affairs of other nation states regarding the aforementioned list of concerns (did I leave any out?), this shames us into opening our borders to people from the places where we meddled in violation of at least the spirit of that treaty? But everyone around here is aware of this bargain, hence the isolationism often expressed here, although many of our Leftist brethren claim that having already meddled mightily still meddling in Mexico and Meso-America, we cannot exclude anyone from at least those places?

    As a consequence, unauthorized Lutherans are allowed to cross into our realm (those Norwegians I have been warning people around here about), but we are not permitted to force their conversion to Roman Catholicism once they are here? What about the cruise ships stuffed with Scandinavians that just appeared in New York Harbor and the strident demands of Lutheran pastors that they be given free bus tickets to Wisconsin, even though the Catholic Germans in that place don't want them around? Along with the claims that Lutherans are industrious and will do the jobs Catholics won't do, although I have seen my share of Lutherans loafing around, and the quality of their workmanship is questionable by German standards?

    The problem with Open Borders is in that it will resolve into the kind of war and lower levels of strife between people with different cultures that the Treaty of Westphalia was intended to end?

    arthropod crawling along his ascending colon

    Lol!

  140. She views her child’s birth in the United States as a “big reward” for her courage, perseverance and faith. As she explained to Univision, which documented parts of her family’s journey, “With faith in God, I always said my son will be born there.”

    Which means that the kid has done nothing to deserve citizenship…..

    After all, none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    On what moral grounds can I be denied my share in the Pritzker family fortune?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pritzker_family

    It was suddenly obvious to him that the boys huddled near him deserved safety, security and a place they could call home — a place where they could not only survive but also thrive. If they deserved such a thing, he did too. “Home is not something I should have to earn,” he wrote. It’s something we all have a right to.

    Dammit, I have a right to live in one of the many palatial residences belonging to the Pritzker Family..

    The deeper question raised isn’t whether our borders should be open or closed (generally a false dichotomy) but rather how we ought to manage immigration in a manner that honors the dignity, humanity and legitimate interests of all concerned.

    Indeed. That’s why I feel that my dignity, humanity, and legitimate interests require that I get a piece of that sweet Pritzker fortune…..I’m not saying that I should get all of it…That would be crazy talk….

    Reaching for a radically more humane immigration system is not pie-in-the-sky, utopian dreaming. But it does require a certain measure of humility on the part of those of us who have benefited from birthright citizenship. Rather than viewing immigrants as seeking something that we, Americans, have a moral right to withhold from them, we ought to begin by acknowledging that none of us who were born here did anything to deserve our citizenship, and yet all of us — no matter where we were born — deserve compassion and basic human rights.

    Look, does being born to a Pritzker heir mean that someone has a moral right to a chunk of the Pritzker fortune? Clearly not…

    But for slavery, genocide and colonization, we would not be the wealthiest, most powerful nation in the world

    Everybody knows that slavery, genocide, and colonization are the secret ingredients to becoming a great power. I mean, just look at Brazil…..

    There’s good reason some Mexicans say: “We didn’t cross the border. The border crossed us.” That is, in fact, what happened.

    MMMM. not sure how that’s gonna help Hondurans, El Salvadorans, and Guatemalans….

    The founders of our nation did not merely wax poetic about the virtues of liberty; our nation was birthed by a Declaration of Independence, a document that insists that “all men are created equal” with “certain inalienable rights” including “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” After centuries of struggle, including a Civil War, we now claim to understand that all people — not just propertied white men — are created equal with basic, inalienable human rights. If this is true, on what moral grounds can we greet immigrants

    If read properly, the Declaration of Independence can be seen as supporting my claims on the Prtizker fortune….

    After all, what was Ms. Serrano-Hernandez doing if not pursuing life, liberty and happiness for herself and her family? Did she not display a level of courage, fortitude and determination to win freedom for herself and those she loved comparable to that of those who helped birth our nation?

    I’m perfectly willing to walk several hundred miles in order to get a little piece of the Pritzker pie…

    Even if we’re tempted to treat as irrelevant the circumstances of our nation’s founding, we cannot ignore the fact that our recent and current foreign policies, trade agreements and military adventures — including our global drug wars — have greatly contributed to the immigration crisis that our nation is now trying to solve through border walls and mass deportation. Would Ms. Serrano-Hernandez and her family even be knocking at our door today if it weren’t for the disastrous policies our government has pursued in Honduras for decades?

    MMMM, maybe all those people suffering from the effects of the opioid crises in Appalachia have a moral right to membership in the families that profit from opioid sales….

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/21/opinion/sunday/immigration-border-policy-citizenship.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

  141. @Buzz Mohawk
    LOL. Not sure if I should even reply to you, but you fell for my joke:

    “This is our land. Our people took it, fair and square.”

    LOL, you really have a strange way of equating “fair and square” with conniving and lying.

     

    That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land. We live here. My ancestors took and conquered it and made it a place everyone else wants to live in.

    The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds -- just like the mountain lion I mentioned, and just like my people.


    “This is a matter of natural law, the laws of nature.”

    The term “natural law” is derived from...
     

    Call it the law of the jungle then. I don't care. I don't think my countrymen should care either, because it is reality, now staring them in the face.

    Somewere in there among your books and Wikipedia pages, Mr. Corvinus, many great men have argued well that there is a place for private property in natural law. This is our property, and we can have the will to keep others from trespassing. It is up to us to decide.

    But again, call it the law of the jungle, if you like. You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do, and who produce everything you depend on for your life. Animals and plants do not ask the question. Where they live is their space, and they often come under challenges to their living space.

    Immigration is now a question of environmental biology. This is our habitat.

    That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land. We live here. My ancestors took and conquered it and made it a place everyone else wants to live in.

    The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds

    Dunson: Tell Don Diego, tell him that all the land north of that river’s mine. Tell him to stay off of it.
    Fernandez: Oh, but the land is his.
    Dunson: Where did he get it?
    Fernandez: Oh many years ago by grant and patent, inscribed by the King of all of Spain.
    Dunson: You mean he took it away from whomever was here before. Indians maybe.
    Fernandez: Maybe so.
    Dunson: Well, I’m takin’ it away from him.
    Fernandez: Others have thought as you, señor. Others have tried.
    Dunson: And you’ve always been good enough to stop ’em?
    Fernandez: Amigo, it is my work.
    Dunson: Pretty unhealthy job.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBPrLU4Zspo
    , @the one they call Desanex
    Excellent stuff today, my brother.
  142. @syonredux

    That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land. We live here. My ancestors took and conquered it and made it a place everyone else wants to live in.

    The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds
     
    Dunson: Tell Don Diego, tell him that all the land north of that river's mine. Tell him to stay off of it.
    Fernandez: Oh, but the land is his.
    Dunson: Where did he get it?
    Fernandez: Oh many years ago by grant and patent, inscribed by the King of all of Spain.
    Dunson: You mean he took it away from whomever was here before. Indians maybe.
    Fernandez: Maybe so.
    Dunson: Well, I'm takin' it away from him.
    Fernandez: Others have thought as you, señor. Others have tried.
    Dunson: And you've always been good enough to stop 'em?
    Fernandez: Amigo, it is my work.
    Dunson: Pretty unhealthy job.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBPrLU4Zspo

  143. Oh, what a surprise, she’s an African princess!

    Princess, being born in a country is what citizenship is all about. Duh.

  144. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    What do you mean “we” Kemosabe?

    “We” founded this nation for “ourselves” and our posterity. So “we” earned whatever benefits accrued from “our” efforts. If Alexander thinks she’s too moral to be part of the “us” who are entitled to “our” country, then good riddance to her and her ilk.

  145. @Lummard
    Michelle Alexander is a racial agit-prop writer, who argues that disparity of incarceration rates are the new version of slavery and segregation, and we won't ever be truly equal unless races are incarcerated at equal rates.

    Michelle Alexander is a racial agit-prop writer, who argues that disparity of incarceration rates are the new version of slavery and segregation, and we won’t ever be truly equal unless races are incarcerated at equal rates.

    How about a pilot project? Release non-white felons into society and every time one breaks the law, make a white liberal left wing sponsor pay the fine, serve the jail sentence, or go to the death chamber.

  146. @Lot
    90% of law professors are hard left. They have high incomes and lots of free time for activism.

    We could throw a third or more of them out of work by ending federal student loans for law schools.

    About 35% of law graduates never become lawyers and never pay back their loans. Another big share get them forgiven.

    Law school loans are a giant subsidy for Alexander and her ilk. The unfortunate students who undertake these loans, while often not paying them back, still have their futures ruined by them. $1000 month payments if they ever do get professional jobs, 3 wasted prime years of their life in law school, no ability to get a mortgage afterward due to ruined credit rating.

    Where is failing AWOL Sec of Education Betsy DeVos?

    90% of law professors are hard left. They have high incomes and lots of free time for activism.

    We could throw a third or more of them out of work by ending federal student loans for law schools.

    I agree. We should in general turn down the student loan spigot. I am also in favor of abolishing the practice of tenure. Make it easier to fire academics. Make them have to shift and worry about keeping their job like most other people have to. As you point out, one of the requirements for activism is having the free time – and the job security – to engage in it. We should deny that privilege to them.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    I agree. We should in general turn down the student loan spigot. I am also in favor of abolishing the practice of tenure. Make it easier to fire academics. Make them have to shift and worry about keeping their job like most other people have to. As you point out, one of the requirements for activism is having the free time – and the job security – to engage in it. We should deny that privilege to them.
     
    It pains me somewhat to say so, but I have to agree. The idea that academics should be protected with tenure assumes the pitchfork conception of the common people: that they are simple-minded brutes who reject new ideas just because they are new. On this view, scholarship is to the people as pearls to swine, and the academic must be protected from their irrational hostility. But this power is just too great. Absolutely nothing can prevail against the power to indoctrinate the youth with no accountability.

    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2357/1659482830_42231fb724_b.jpg
    , @Rob McX
    The problem with ending tenure is that it would lead to the expulsion of the few remaining right-wing professors from academia.
  147. @syonredux

    That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land. We live here. My ancestors took and conquered it and made it a place everyone else wants to live in.

    The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds
     
    Dunson: Tell Don Diego, tell him that all the land north of that river's mine. Tell him to stay off of it.
    Fernandez: Oh, but the land is his.
    Dunson: Where did he get it?
    Fernandez: Oh many years ago by grant and patent, inscribed by the King of all of Spain.
    Dunson: You mean he took it away from whomever was here before. Indians maybe.
    Fernandez: Maybe so.
    Dunson: Well, I'm takin' it away from him.
    Fernandez: Others have thought as you, señor. Others have tried.
    Dunson: And you've always been good enough to stop 'em?
    Fernandez: Amigo, it is my work.
    Dunson: Pretty unhealthy job.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBPrLU4Zspo

    Excellent stuff today, my brother.

  148. The Michelle Alexander Story

    She’s a stupid, lying, racist.

  149. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    There are many examples of biracial Black Power types like Michelle Alexander. This is lizard brain stuff. They are biracial, but one of those races will never claim them. The way Michelle Alexander sees it, being rejected from a race can really determine how you look at the world. Also it's a pretty good living.

    Black Power doesn't have much in the way of objectives. Alexander doesn't really want all the mutts let out of jail. The main objective is to ruin whitey, so while supporting large-scale immigration may hurt blacks, it is much more important to ruin whitey's country. Attacking law enforcement, protecting criminals, undermining immigration law, none of these things help black people. Bu they do hurt America.

    Alexander was raised by her white family, but personal experience doesn't seem to matter much. Colin Kaepernick, deeply resentful of the people who raised him, identifies with the father who rejected him. Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine, radical cop hater who identifies with his father, who was part of the Mau-Mau rebellion and left his son at 16 months. Jesse Williams. Sean King I guess.

    Colin Kaepernick, deeply resentful of the people who raised him, identifies with the father who rejected him. Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine, radical cop hater who identifies with his father, who was part of the Mau-Mau rebellion and left his son at 16 months. Jesse Williams. Sean King I guess.

    Barry Soetero

  150. @George
    Falling total fertility rate should be welcomed, population expert says
    Figures showing declining birth rates are ‘cause for celebration’, not alarm

    “I believe that one of the reasons why Angela Merkel took the million refugees was because she desperately needed to boost her working population,” said Harper.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/26/falling-total-fertility-rate-should-be-welcomed-population-expert-says

    It does appear the number of employed persons in Germany has increased:
    https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/employed-persons

    Angela didn’t need new workers in 2005, when Poland joined the EU. They kept Poles out over a 7 year interim period – only UK and Ireland took them straight away and a million Poles headed for England.

  151. On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    Does she cover her own “moral grounds”‘ for claiming Affirmative Action? (Sorry, I couldn’t get through her whole shpiel.)

  152. @Hail

    By Michelle Alexander, Opinion Columnist
     
    Who is Michelle Alexander?
    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/13/opinion/michelle-alexander/michelle-alexander-thumbLarge.jpg

    Biographical info on Michelle Alexander
    - 1964: marriage of Michelle Alexander's White mother (Oregon origin) and Black father (Chicago); she characterizes her White mother's family and church as having opposed the union
    - 1967: Michelle Alexander is born in Chicago
    - 1970s: spends a few years in a planned, "sustainable living" community in the Champaign-Urbana metro area (Stelle, Illinois). Family often on the move in later 1970s and early 1980s as father has job trouble. Winds up back in mother's hometown in Oregon.
    - c.1985: graduates from high school in Ashland, Oregon (Census 2010: 90% White, 1% Black); receives affirmative action scholarship to Vanderbilt (Gertrude Vanderbilt Minority Scholarship) arranged by a connection of Michelle's White mother
    - 1989: graduates from Vanderbilt, majoring in Political Science
    - 1992: graduates from Stanford Law
    - 1992-1998: "worked as an associate at Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller, fighting race and gender discrimination in Fortune 500 companies" -- i.e., like fellow BlackFather-WhiteMother child Barry Soetoro Obama, Michelle spent some young-adult years on the "race hustle." Proving her Blackness? Side question: Is it (((Saperstein, Goldstein, Demchak & Baller))), or what?
    - 1998: hired by American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California
    - 2000s: rises to Director of the Racial Justice Project of NorCal ACLU
    - 2005-2013: Associate Professor of Law at Ohio State University, holding a "joint appointment with the Moritz College of Law and the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity"
    - 2010: publishes book, "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness"
    - 2011: her first opinion column appears in New York Times. Never having come off the race-hustle gravy-train, the column opens:

    THE legal scholar Derrick A. Bell foresaw that mass incarceration, like earlier systems of racial control, would continue to exist...
     
    Michelle Alexander has had nine opinion columns published in the Times since 2011. As of Sept. 2018, she is a once-monthly opinion columnist. Her previous:

    The Newest Jim Crow
    Recent criminal justice reforms contain the seeds of a frightening system of “e-carceration.”

    By MICHELLE ALEXANDER / Nov. 9, 2018
     
    - 2016-Present: Visiting Professor of Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.

    But the question remains, "Is She Black Enough?"

    See Exhibit A:

    https://images.c-span.org/Files/cf2/20170610201611002_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.576.no_border.width.1024.jpg

    (Biographical info above mainly from an article on Michelle Alexander appearing in Vanderbilt Magazine, Dec. 2013)

    It is interesting that she did a “reverse OJ” on her NYT profile pic — that is, she clearly blacked it up a bit.

  153. One would think that even a “Progressive” would gag after reading this pap. The most closed liberal mind should surely come to the conclusion that open borders and the the flooding of America with millions of illegal (oops, no longer illegal) immigrants will ultimately degrade the lifestyle of everyone except the ruling elite. Ideology overrules commonsense.

  154. There are lots of Statues of Liberty around. Why crowd the one in New York Harbor? Here’s one in Birmingham, Alabama:

    You could inscribe the Iliad on that plinth!

    Here’s one in Aomori Prefecture, Japan, which is nearly at the same latitude as the original:

    They use a kawaii version as a local symbol for numerous things. Including a poster instructing residents to report illegal aliens!

    If you’re interested, you can see the poster in Matt Alt’s Hello Please! I can’t find it online.

    https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/hello-please-matt-alt/1111615280

  155. @Anonymous

    Did the article say if her father left her mother, and how old she was at the time?
     
    Don't black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?

    Don’t black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?

    Do you mean the lowest marriage rates? Ninety-two percent of the children of black fathers and women of another race are born out of wedlock.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    White male black female marriages are very rare, but once set up they do have a very low divorce rate.
    Of course, there are practical and apparent explanations for that, which are not chivalrous to spell out ...
  156. @LauraM
    No one is for open borders? What is the difference between her position and open borders? As far as I can tell, she believes that anyone who wanders in here is "entitled" to citizenship. That sounds like open borders to me.
    Let's face it: this woman cannot think straight. She specializes in emotion-laden non-sequiters. But that is now the MO of female pundits in the op ed page of the NYTimes.

    And evidently a majority of female American voters agree with her.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    And evidently a majority of female American voters agree with her.
     
    Not white ones.
  157. @the one they call Desanex
    Steve Sailer had a rabbit;
    A raptor tried to grab it.
    The bunny built a bunker
    Down into which to hunker.

    There are no brier patches in Studio City?

  158. @oddsbodkins
    Ashland, Oregon is one of the zip codes identified as an out-of-touch bubble by Charles Murray. It is a slice of Berkeley dropped into the woods midway between SF and Portland.

    Ashland, Oregon is one of the zip codes identified as an out-of-touch bubble by Charles Murray. It is a slice of Berkeley dropped into the woods midway between SF and Portland.

    Ashland, Kentucky is quite different:

    https://www.areavibes.com/ashland-ky/employment/

    But at least it ain’t Beattyville:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/12/beattyville-kentucky-and-americas-poorest-towns

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    Ashland, KY is a slice of Cracker dropped into the no man's land between the coastal elites and what they want to acquire. By the laws of succession, the natives will be eliminated through attrition if fire is contained and the ground is colonized by shade tolerant tribes. But the shade intolerant crackers have always favored fire as a tool for preparing the ground for planting. Outcome still uncertain.
  159. @Achmed E. Newman
    I don't know how you do it, Steve, reading these lies day-in and day-out without heading to NYC to give these people a piece of your mind. The lies are especially strong in this Miss Alexander. The Statue of Liberty as a an advertisement for immigration? (She also doesn't mention that it didn't come with a plaque with that stupid poem.) I can't fix this stupidity without a long comment, but let me say that I'm outraged by Miss Alexander's comparing some fat Mexican freeloading trespasser to the Founding Fathers who pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor.

    The worst thing is, is that this article is 5 days old. You've got 5 days of lies to sort through to catch up. Getter done.

    I’d have thought that Michelle Alexander, attorney-at-law, might have noticed that the question proffered regarding citizenship was accompanied by the narrative:

    scaled a wall along the United States-Mexico border

    denoting the crime of illegal entry to the US.

    Most attorneys recognize the principle that a perpetrator not benefit from their crime. The mother’s presence as illegal–without permission–means subsequent actions are of a similar character. One might note that the children of diplomats born in the US are not granted birthright citizenship, as a condition of their permission to be in the US.

    Why should someone who has no permission to be present in the US be granted the privilege and immunity of citizenship? (Art. IV, Sec. 2)

  160. @Anon
    Kaepernick probably identifies more with his girlfriend's Arab-Muslim culture, he wouldn't exactly look out of place in the Middle East were he able to drop his American mannerisms. This aspect is under-discussed, as no one wants to admit that he was basically whipped into politics by his older girlfriend. The narrative has to simultaneously regard him as an "American civil rights hero" while maintaining the otherwise far-left positions he holds. In the few unstructured statements he made some were critical of "felow mulatto" Obama.

    A few of the Sayum funeral portraits from Roman Era Egypt look kind of like Kaepernick. He’s an unusual-looking guy in modern America. Other unusual looking first generation crosses include Blake Griffin of the NBA, and the Olympic decathlon champ from Oregon, Ashton Eaton.

    My impression is that first generation black-white crosses like Kaepernick tend to be more idiosyncratic looking. But if somebody is 50-50 DNA after 3 or 12 generations of crosses, he tends to fall in the standard African-American range, just on the whiter looking end.

    Henry Harpending pointed to the Uighurs of Western China, currently being persecuted by Beijing. They are the result of a White – East Asian cross many generations ago. Today, they tend to look distinctly Uighur. But probably in the first generation, there was much more variety.

    • Replies: @gabriel alberton
    If it's of any relevance, here in Brazil, in the white-ish Southeast, I routinely see mixed (white, black and/or native) folks which do not look like any black, hispanic, or mixed-race American I know of (nothing like, say, George Zimmerman, Colin Kaepernick, George Prescott Bush, etc). Obviously it's sort of a matter of opinion and my experience is limited, but there might be distinctive Brazilian looks (and they may vary depending on the state/region).
    , @SonOfFrankenstein
    So sad that a great American and athlete like Ashton Eaton has to be characterized as an "unusual looking first generation cross". He isn't exactly a household name but deserves to be, given his athleticism (2012, 2016 Olympic Gold Medalist in the decathlon), good looks, and accomplishments. I guess he wasn't marketable to the extent of other athletes who embrace controversy and self-aggrandizement. I hope Ashton and his beautiful wife retired Canadian heptathlete Brianne Theisen-Eaton (bronze medal 2016) have beautiful children.
  161. @JimS
    Mr. Sailer,

    I do believe the author is pandering to an American pathos that goes back well over a century. From Bill Nye's Comic History of the U.S., written shortly after President Grover Cleveland's resumption of office (my apologies, I quote at length):

    "When Patrick Henry put his old cast-iron spectacles on the top of his head and whooped for liberty, he did not know that some day we should have more of it that we knew what to do with. He little dreamed that the time would come when we should have more liberty than we could pay for. When Mr. Henry sawed the air and shouted for liberty or death, I do not believe that he knew the time would come when Liberty would stand on Bedloe’s Island and yearn for rest and change of scene.

    "It seems to me that we have too much liberty in this country in some ways. We have more liberty than we have money. We guarantee that every man in America shall fill himself up full of liberty at our expense, and the less of an American he is the more liberty he can have. Should he desire to enjoy himself, all he needs is a slight foreign accent and a willingness to mix up with politics as soon as he can get his baggage off the steamer. The more I study American institutions the more I regret that I was not born a foreigner so that I could have something to say about the management of our great land. If I could not be a foreigner, I believe that I should prefer to be a policeman or an Indian not taxed.

    "I am often led to ask, in the language of the poet, ‘Is civilization a failure, and is the Caucasian played out?’

    "Almost every one can have a good deal of fun in America except the American. He seems to be so busy paying his taxes that he has very little time to vote, or to mingle in society’s giddy whirl, or to mix up with the nobility. That is the reason why the alien who rides across the United States in the ‘Limited Mail’ and writes a book about us before breakfast wonders why we are always in a hurry. That also is the reason why we have to throw our meals into ourselves with such despatch, and hardly have time to maintain a warm personal friendship with out families.

    "We do not care much for wealth, but we have freedom, and freedom costs money. We have advertised to furnish a bunch of freedom to every man, woman, and child who comes to our shores, and we are going to deliver the goods whether we have any left for ourselves or not.

    "What would the great world beyond the seas say to us if some day the blue-eyed Oriental, with his heart full of love for our female seminaries and our old women’s homes, should land upon our coasts and crave freedom in car-load lots but find that we were using all the liberty ourselves? But what do we want of liberty, anyhow? It takes a man of leisure to enjoy liberty, and we have no leisure whatever. It is a good thing to keep in the house for the use of guests, but we don’t need it for ourselves.

    "Therefore we have a statue of Liberty Enlightening the World, because it shows that we keep Liberty on tap winter and summer. We want the whole broad world to remember that when it gets tired of oppression that it can come here to America and oppress us. We are used to it, and we rather like it. If we don’t like it, we can get on the steamer and go abroad, where we may visit the effete old monarchies and have a high old time.

    "The sight of the Goddess of Liberty standing there in the New York harbor night and day, bathing her feet in the rippling sea, is a good thing. It is first-rate. It may also be productive of good in a direction that many have not thought of. As she stands there, day after day, bathing her feet in the broad Atlantic, perhaps some moss-grown alien landing on our shore and moving toward the Far West may fix the bright picture in his so-called mind, and, remembering how, on his arrival in New York, he saw liberty bathing her feet with impunity, he may be led in after-years to try it on himself.

    "More citizens and less voters will some day be adopted as the motto of the Republic."

    We want the whole broad world to remember that when it gets tired of oppression that it can come here to America and oppress us.

    Great stuff. Thanks.

  162. @Anonymous

    Did the article say if her father left her mother, and how old she was at the time?
     
    Don't black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?

    Don’t black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?

    It depends. White female / black male tends to be fairly stable. Black male / white female is something above 90% failure rate by year seven. It’s an almost guaranteed path to single motherhood.

    • LOL: fish
    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong

    White female / black male tends to be fairly stable. Black male / white female is something above 90% failure rate by year seven.
     
    That is so obvious you needn’t have stated it.
    , @ben tillman
    You need to re-read your comment.
  163. Anonymous [AKA "Rick O."] says:

    Maybe ‘deserve’ is not the right focus or emphasis for either side of the argument.

    ‘Legal’ seems to be the word used the most in recent debate and within the framework of our Constitution, as we address enforcement of existing laws and reformation of some immigration laws.

    ‘Vetted’ and ‘vested’ are two other words that relate to validation and dedication (via education and preparation) to America’s Constitution and way of life (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) within a free Republic. Americans want immigrants to be safe and beneficial for our country. Seems entirely reasonable and fair to me.

  164. @Steve Sailer
    A few of the Sayum funeral portraits from Roman Era Egypt look kind of like Kaepernick. He's an unusual-looking guy in modern America. Other unusual looking first generation crosses include Blake Griffin of the NBA, and the Olympic decathlon champ from Oregon, Ashton Eaton.

    My impression is that first generation black-white crosses like Kaepernick tend to be more idiosyncratic looking. But if somebody is 50-50 DNA after 3 or 12 generations of crosses, he tends to fall in the standard African-American range, just on the whiter looking end.

    Henry Harpending pointed to the Uighurs of Western China, currently being persecuted by Beijing. They are the result of a White - East Asian cross many generations ago. Today, they tend to look distinctly Uighur. But probably in the first generation, there was much more variety.

    If it’s of any relevance, here in Brazil, in the white-ish Southeast, I routinely see mixed (white, black and/or native) folks which do not look like any black, hispanic, or mixed-race American I know of (nothing like, say, George Zimmerman, Colin Kaepernick, George Prescott Bush, etc). Obviously it’s sort of a matter of opinion and my experience is limited, but there might be distinctive Brazilian looks (and they may vary depending on the state/region).

  165. @LauraM
    No one is for open borders? What is the difference between her position and open borders? As far as I can tell, she believes that anyone who wanders in here is "entitled" to citizenship. That sounds like open borders to me.
    Let's face it: this woman cannot think straight. She specializes in emotion-laden non-sequiters. But that is now the MO of female pundits in the op ed page of the NYTimes.

    “Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

    Let’s interrogate this passage of the text. I read this metaphor as pro-borders; the lamp shows the way but it also allows Miss Liberty to see who’s there. A door can only be read as pro-border and pro-wall, doors can be open or closed, even barricaded, and a door doesn’t stand alone. If there was no wall one wouldn’t need a door. Surely those on Ellis Island awaiting legal admission to the United States viewed the statue in the same manner, they knew there was no guarantee of admission merely by appearing at the golden door. Many forget that more people died at Ellis Island awaiting a decision than were lynched in the entire 20th century (U.S.A.).

  166. @ben tillman

    Don’t black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?
     
    Do you mean the lowest marriage rates? Ninety-two percent of the children of black fathers and women of another race are born out of wedlock.

    White male black female marriages are very rare, but once set up they do have a very low divorce rate.
    Of course, there are practical and apparent explanations for that, which are not chivalrous to spell out …

  167. @Anon

    Don’t black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?
     
    It depends. White female / black male tends to be fairly stable. Black male / white female is something above 90% failure rate by year seven. It's an almost guaranteed path to single motherhood.

    White female / black male tends to be fairly stable. Black male / white female is something above 90% failure rate by year seven.

    That is so obvious you needn’t have stated it.

    • Replies: @Jack Highlands
    You repeated Anon's mistake, though as you say, this is pretty basic-bitch stuff for iSteve readers. Anyway, it's White male/Black female that tends to be fairly stable and as stated, Black male/White female that's not.
  168. @Anonymous

    Did the article say if her father left her mother, and how old she was at the time?
     
    Don't black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?

    It’s hard to get good stats but if two people as much in-love as Nicole and O.J. (or Barack, Sr. and Stanley) can’t make it work … the fog of systematized racism miasmating the USA must be far greater than we can imagine.

  169. Anonymous [AKA "totally not fascist"] says:
    @FPD72
    So the moral standard for possessing “rights, privileges, and responsibilities” is that we “earn them ourselves?” That does seem to be the logical inference of her rhetorical question.

    Great! No welfare state. No free medical treatment for anybody, including alien women delivering babies. No food stamps, no Section 8 housing, no public schools, no Medicaid; unless you’ve earned it yourself you don’t deserve it.

    Her background doesn’t fit that of a classical libertarian but that seems to be the gist of her argument and “moral arguments” should be logically consistent.

    A rejoinder to her sloppy argument is that citizens possess our “rights, privileges, and responsibilities” because they have been bequeathed to us by earlier generations of citizens, going all the way back to our nation’s founding for the blessings of liberty for those Americans then living and their posterity, plus any legally naturalized citizens who have met the requirements established by Congress in Article 1 of our Constitution. That is not only a legal argument; it is a moral one as well.

    Her background doesn’t fit that of a classical libertarian

    I’ll say.

    none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship

    Awesome. Alexander has leap-frogged from Woke Socialism, sailed high over Liberalism and Conservatism and even Libertarianism, and landed with a thud in “Starship Troopers”.

    I don’t even think she realizes it.

    We should agreeandamplify her: “You’re so right, Michelle! Citizenship should be earned! Here are our proposed ways to earn it,” and the list is like totally fashy and jingoistic (and utterly impossible for most Wakandans to satisfy).

    • Replies: @syonredux
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsR4O4W0w
  170. Oh, good. We get to be lectured by a bossy “black” woman, herself a beneficiary of Affirmative Action, on how we don’t deserve what we can because we didn’t earn it.

    Such a refreshing change from being lectured by a bossy hyphenated American Jewess on how she doesn’t feel confortable with the holiday customs of “her” country so we should stop observing them.

    • Replies: @Ragno
    The hoops you have to jump through around here merely to register "agree/disagree/etc" are a little too labor- intensive for me ten minutes before hitting the hay.

    So let me offer a simple "well said" instead.
  171. @Anonymous

    Her background doesn’t fit that of a classical libertarian
     
    I'll say.

    none of us born here did anything to deserve our citizenship
     
    Awesome. Alexander has leap-frogged from Woke Socialism, sailed high over Liberalism and Conservatism and even Libertarianism, and landed with a thud in "Starship Troopers".

    I don't even think she realizes it.

    We should agreeandamplify her: "You're so right, Michelle! Citizenship should be earned! Here are our proposed ways to earn it," and the list is like totally fashy and jingoistic (and utterly impossible for most Wakandans to satisfy).

  172. @Eustace Tilley (not)
    To climb heavy with child o'er the wall
    Risking life of your child if you fall
    Just to anchor its birth
    In a foreigner's earth
    Isn't really so "moral" at all.

    That’s quite excellent.

  173. @Corvinus
    “That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land.”

    LOL, you don’t know if you are coming or going. You state that “we” won this land “fair and square”, then backtrack and say there is no “fair and square”, that it is essentially a free for all. But it really depends upon who this “we” and “our” refers to. Unless you are able to directly trace both of your British Isles ancestors directly to colonial times, say prior to 1750, you are not part of this “we” or “our” or “us”. You have to go back.

    “The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds -- just like the mountain lion I mentioned, and just like my people.”



    Of course there were moral questions that were considered. Bartolomé de las Casas questioned the wisdom of the Spanish conquistadors in taking native land by force. He stressed that Amerindians ought to enjoy the same freedoms as any other people because God created them. William Penn proclaimed he would not exploit either the natives or the immigrants when developing his colony—“I would not abuse His love, nor act unworthy of His providence, and so defile what came to me clean.”

    “Call it the law of the jungle then. I don't care.”

    You get busted for not fully understanding the concept of natural law, and now you have the audacity to refer to the situation as the “law of the jungle”? Wow, just wow.

    “I don't think my countrymen should care either, because it is reality, now staring them in the face.”



    A number of your countrymen and countrywomen—whoever they are, as you have yet to clearly define them—are Christians, who do take into account morality. So how do you address their concerns?

    “This is our property, and we can have the will to keep others from trespassing. It is up to us to decide.”


    You do not speak for everyone. You only speak for yourself. When you talk about “our property”, you are talking about YOUR property. Which includes men and women who are opposed to your

    “You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do”

    Who are these “better men”? Would you put yourself in this category?

    "Immigration is now a question of environmental biology. This is our habitat."

    According to who/whom?

    Corvinus, You speak about property, almost as if it doesn’t exist, but in terms of land or territory it certainly does. Long before the first European settler stepped on the American continents the indigenous peoples claimed and held territory. The Comanches warred on the Apaches, The Seneca warred on the Mohawk, who warred on the Huron, all over territory. People establish a culture in an area, respecting rules if not laws. I don’t remember the NYT lamenting the fact that a white missionary had the temerity to set foot on a distant island and lost his life because of it. If I recall the narrative was that these people had the right to be left alone. Seems to me that people do have the right, moral and legal, to determine who is allowed on their “Property.”

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Corvinus, You speak about property, almost as if it doesn’t exist,..."

    That would a false premise on your part. Of course property and the right to property exists. Except it is a European concept, one that was completely foreign to Native Americans.

    Now, officially, the United States of America is "owned" by the People of the United States of America collectively, which means every citizen of the United States has a right to dictate how the United States works and operates through elected representatives. Yet, “United States of America” is a “legal fiction” in the fact that while many people agree it exists, it means different things to different people. From orbit, while we could point at a blob of land and say “That is the USA”, it is only because we mutually agree as to its existence, its borders and its definition that it exists. So the United States as "our property"refers to the people deciding individually what we ought and ought not to do regarding policies and procedures for newcomers.

    From my vantage point, Buzz is making it appear that only a certain subset of our citizenry can and will make those "rules", rather than "We The People".

  174. None of us deserve birthright citizenship? How about I pick a random country – say South Africa – and decide I’d prefer to be there and demand entry and the ability to acquire property and use it for my benefit. I’m sure Ms. Alexander would defend my aspirations if they ran into any objections from the locals, right?

  175. @Square Wheeled Hot Rod
    Okay. No one "deserves" citizenship. Michelle Alexander should walk the talk by renouncing her U.S. citizenship as an inspiration to others.

    Okay. No one “deserves” citizenship. Michelle Alexander should walk the talk by renouncing her U.S. citizenship as an inspiration to others.

    Or volunteering to transfer her citizenship to some undocumented person, and have her legal status changed to resident alien. Think that’ll happen?

  176. @Jack Armstrong

    White female / black male tends to be fairly stable. Black male / white female is something above 90% failure rate by year seven.
     
    That is so obvious you needn’t have stated it.

    You repeated Anon’s mistake, though as you say, this is pretty basic-bitch stuff for iSteve readers. Anyway, it’s White male/Black female that tends to be fairly stable and as stated, Black male/White female that’s not.

    • Replies: @anon

    Anyway, it’s White male/Black female that tends to be fairly stable and as stated, Black male/White female that’s not.
     
    probably because the black males are used to getting away with violence

    eventually the white female has enough
  177. @Anonymous

    Did the article say if her father left her mother, and how old she was at the time?
     
    Don't black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?

    Only when the white in it is the man does it have a divorce rate lower than the white:white baseline by something like 4%, and that’s probably because near zero white men actually find black women attractive so it takes a real fetishist for starters. The reverse, when it’s a white woman, is almost guaranteed single motherhood.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Only when the white in it is the man does it have a divorce rate lower than the white:white baseline by something like 4%, and that’s probably because near zero white men actually find black women attractive so it takes a real fetishist for starters. The reverse, when it’s a white woman, is almost guaranteed single motherhood.
     
    My theory: White men who marry black women usually do so out of a sense of duty. They got her pregnant and decided to man up. They stick around because of the same sense of duty.
    , @anon
    "when it's a white woman, is almost guaranteed single motherhood."

    I have to agree 99% with this based on my observations. Date a brother, become a single mother. I know some nice white girls, who had promising futures who basically have thrown away their lives this way. I just don't get it.
  178. @Mr. Anon

    90% of law professors are hard left. They have high incomes and lots of free time for activism.

    We could throw a third or more of them out of work by ending federal student loans for law schools.
     
    I agree. We should in general turn down the student loan spigot. I am also in favor of abolishing the practice of tenure. Make it easier to fire academics. Make them have to shift and worry about keeping their job like most other people have to. As you point out, one of the requirements for activism is having the free time - and the job security - to engage in it. We should deny that privilege to them.

    I agree. We should in general turn down the student loan spigot. I am also in favor of abolishing the practice of tenure. Make it easier to fire academics. Make them have to shift and worry about keeping their job like most other people have to. As you point out, one of the requirements for activism is having the free time – and the job security – to engage in it. We should deny that privilege to them.

    It pains me somewhat to say so, but I have to agree. The idea that academics should be protected with tenure assumes the pitchfork conception of the common people: that they are simple-minded brutes who reject new ideas just because they are new. On this view, scholarship is to the people as pearls to swine, and the academic must be protected from their irrational hostility. But this power is just too great. Absolutely nothing can prevail against the power to indoctrinate the youth with no accountability.

    • Agree: Lot
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    The usual explanation for why nobody has ever used tenure for anything good is that you only get tenure after years of careful training and vetting, which usually cuts you off from other sources of income, and, while tenure supposedly protects you from firing, it doesn't protect university funding fron embarassed oligarchs. Tenure is pointless anyway.
    , @Mr. Anon

    The idea that academics should be protected with tenure assumes the pitchfork conception of the common people: that they are simple-minded brutes who reject new ideas just because they are new.
     
    In the modern university, it is often the academics who are the pitchfork wielding brutes.
  179. Michelle Alexander would be contributing more to society if she were waiting tables at Waffle House.

  180. @Steve Sailer
    A few of the Sayum funeral portraits from Roman Era Egypt look kind of like Kaepernick. He's an unusual-looking guy in modern America. Other unusual looking first generation crosses include Blake Griffin of the NBA, and the Olympic decathlon champ from Oregon, Ashton Eaton.

    My impression is that first generation black-white crosses like Kaepernick tend to be more idiosyncratic looking. But if somebody is 50-50 DNA after 3 or 12 generations of crosses, he tends to fall in the standard African-American range, just on the whiter looking end.

    Henry Harpending pointed to the Uighurs of Western China, currently being persecuted by Beijing. They are the result of a White - East Asian cross many generations ago. Today, they tend to look distinctly Uighur. But probably in the first generation, there was much more variety.

    So sad that a great American and athlete like Ashton Eaton has to be characterized as an “unusual looking first generation cross”. He isn’t exactly a household name but deserves to be, given his athleticism (2012, 2016 Olympic Gold Medalist in the decathlon), good looks, and accomplishments. I guess he wasn’t marketable to the extent of other athletes who embrace controversy and self-aggrandizement. I hope Ashton and his beautiful wife retired Canadian heptathlete Brianne Theisen-Eaton (bronze medal 2016) have beautiful children.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A lot of decathlon stars going back to Daley Thompson in 1980/84 have been half-black, including Bryan Clay who is half Asian and half black. Not many all black decathlon stars, though.

    Ashton Eaton has perfect nature/nurture: half-black, half-white, raised in a small town in Oregon, the state where track & field is still big.

    , @anon

    I hope Ashton and his beautiful wife retired Canadian heptathlete Brianne Theisen-Eaton (bronze medal 2016) have beautiful children.
     
    that's the important thing
    , @Corvinus
    "I hope Ashton and his beautiful wife retired Canadian heptathlete Brianne Theisen-Eaton (bronze medal 2016) have beautiful children."

    Exactly. But you do realize you are promoting race mixing, which I thought was a big no-no among members of the Alt Right.
  181. @Joseph Doaks
    And evidently a majority of female American voters agree with her.

    And evidently a majority of female American voters agree with her.

    Not white ones.

  182. Pretty sure if you limited citizenship to veterans or landed veterans or some other right leaning group with a history of building liveable societies some mystery meat idiot would immediately pen an oped about how “this isn’t America”.

  183. “We are the only nation that advertises itself as “a nation of immigrants” and the “land of the free,” an advertising campaign complete with a Statute of Liberty whose pedestal includes a plaque of a poem that reads in part”

    While they were erecting that statue and Emma Lazarus (who had nothing to do with building the statue) was writing that execrable poem, Congress was busy writing and passing (by an overwhelming, 5-1 margin) a law banning Chinese immigration.

    So the statue may not mean exactly what the author thinks it means.

  184. @Rosie

    I agree. We should in general turn down the student loan spigot. I am also in favor of abolishing the practice of tenure. Make it easier to fire academics. Make them have to shift and worry about keeping their job like most other people have to. As you point out, one of the requirements for activism is having the free time – and the job security – to engage in it. We should deny that privilege to them.
     
    It pains me somewhat to say so, but I have to agree. The idea that academics should be protected with tenure assumes the pitchfork conception of the common people: that they are simple-minded brutes who reject new ideas just because they are new. On this view, scholarship is to the people as pearls to swine, and the academic must be protected from their irrational hostility. But this power is just too great. Absolutely nothing can prevail against the power to indoctrinate the youth with no accountability.

    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2357/1659482830_42231fb724_b.jpg

    The usual explanation for why nobody has ever used tenure for anything good is that you only get tenure after years of careful training and vetting, which usually cuts you off from other sources of income, and, while tenure supposedly protects you from firing, it doesn’t protect university funding fron embarassed oligarchs. Tenure is pointless anyway.

  185. @Saxon
    Only when the white in it is the man does it have a divorce rate lower than the white:white baseline by something like 4%, and that's probably because near zero white men actually find black women attractive so it takes a real fetishist for starters. The reverse, when it's a white woman, is almost guaranteed single motherhood.

    Only when the white in it is the man does it have a divorce rate lower than the white:white baseline by something like 4%, and that’s probably because near zero white men actually find black women attractive so it takes a real fetishist for starters. The reverse, when it’s a white woman, is almost guaranteed single motherhood.

    My theory: White men who marry black women usually do so out of a sense of duty. They got her pregnant and decided to man up. They stick around because of the same sense of duty.

  186. @SonOfFrankenstein
    So sad that a great American and athlete like Ashton Eaton has to be characterized as an "unusual looking first generation cross". He isn't exactly a household name but deserves to be, given his athleticism (2012, 2016 Olympic Gold Medalist in the decathlon), good looks, and accomplishments. I guess he wasn't marketable to the extent of other athletes who embrace controversy and self-aggrandizement. I hope Ashton and his beautiful wife retired Canadian heptathlete Brianne Theisen-Eaton (bronze medal 2016) have beautiful children.

    A lot of decathlon stars going back to Daley Thompson in 1980/84 have been half-black, including Bryan Clay who is half Asian and half black. Not many all black decathlon stars, though.

    Ashton Eaton has perfect nature/nurture: half-black, half-white, raised in a small town in Oregon, the state where track & field is still big.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    You think that's cool? What's really cool is that the 1976 Olympic decathlon winner was a woman.

    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RigAAOSwl8NVdkD4/s-l300.jpg
  187. anon[355] • Disclaimer says:

    “None of us born here did anything to earn or deserve our citizenship”…

    My ancestors who built the country and bequeathed it to me certainly did.

    If my great-great-grandfather was a genius who made tens of millions and it is passed on down generations later to me why shouldn’t the fortune be mine?

  188. What do people at the New York Times think of ethnically cleansed Palestinians being shot while trying to return to Palestine/Israel?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    They think that they are being used as political pawns and human shields so terrorists can sneak in with them and kidnap/murder Israeli school children. They wish that the US government had the cojones to enforce the US border the way the Israelis protect their own sovereignty.

    The people approaching the border fence were not "ethnically cleansed" - they are the grandchildren or great grandchildren of those who left in '48. There are millions of descendants of the expelled all over the world - Jews, Germans, Greeks, Indians, etc. but most of them have moved on long ago.
  189. None of Us Deserve [sic] Citizenship

    By that logic, none of us deserve life. That’s why we say grace. Not that Michelle Alexander does.

    None of us deserves to be this lucky, either, but some are:

    Drunken driving suspect mostly unscathed in 100 mph crash

    Racine County authorities say a suspected drunk driver and his passenger walked away from a crash early Sunday, apparently without any serious injuries.

    Investigators estimate 30-year-old Tonny Griffin was driving at about 100 mph when he lost control on Highway 20 in the Village of Mount Pleasant. People living nearby say the crash was so loud it woke them up. Griffin’s sports car rolled six times, hitting several signs and a light pole before coming to a rest. Griffin was checked out at a hospital, then booked into the Racine County Jail.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    Both must have wearing seat belts. I hope he escapes a drunk driving prosecution. The county will demand he pay for demolishing traffic signs and denting a light pole.
    More details: ______ https://journaltimes.com/news/local/two-rollover-crashes-reported-in-mount-pleasant-no-serious-injuries/article_143458ed-336e-5270-a5fb-8bc8c9830b4b.html
  190. @Corvinus
    “That is my point, which you missed. There is no fair and square in this matter. This is our land.”

    LOL, you don’t know if you are coming or going. You state that “we” won this land “fair and square”, then backtrack and say there is no “fair and square”, that it is essentially a free for all. But it really depends upon who this “we” and “our” refers to. Unless you are able to directly trace both of your British Isles ancestors directly to colonial times, say prior to 1750, you are not part of this “we” or “our” or “us”. You have to go back.

    “The people who were here before them also took it, probably without any moral questions ever entering their minds -- just like the mountain lion I mentioned, and just like my people.”



    Of course there were moral questions that were considered. Bartolomé de las Casas questioned the wisdom of the Spanish conquistadors in taking native land by force. He stressed that Amerindians ought to enjoy the same freedoms as any other people because God created them. William Penn proclaimed he would not exploit either the natives or the immigrants when developing his colony—“I would not abuse His love, nor act unworthy of His providence, and so defile what came to me clean.”

    “Call it the law of the jungle then. I don't care.”

    You get busted for not fully understanding the concept of natural law, and now you have the audacity to refer to the situation as the “law of the jungle”? Wow, just wow.

    “I don't think my countrymen should care either, because it is reality, now staring them in the face.”



    A number of your countrymen and countrywomen—whoever they are, as you have yet to clearly define them—are Christians, who do take into account morality. So how do you address their concerns?

    “This is our property, and we can have the will to keep others from trespassing. It is up to us to decide.”


    You do not speak for everyone. You only speak for yourself. When you talk about “our property”, you are talking about YOUR property. Which includes men and women who are opposed to your

    “You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do”

    Who are these “better men”? Would you put yourself in this category?

    "Immigration is now a question of environmental biology. This is our habitat."

    According to who/whom?

    LOL, you don’t know if you are coming or going. You state that “we” won this land “fair and square”, then backtrack and say there is no “fair and square”, that it is essentially a free for all.

    You still don’t get that my usage of “fair and square” is a joke! Your hyper intellectual literalism is a lot funnier than the joke. (I was going to say “your Aspergers,” but I don’t want insult anyone with that problem, even you.)

    Unless you are able to directly trace both of your British Isles ancestors directly to colonial times, say prior to 1750, you are not part of this “we” or “our” or “us”. You have to go back.

    Father’s side traces back to New Haven Colony, now part of Connecticut, in the early 1600s. They were Puritans from England. Mother’s side traces back to the original, white slaves in the Colonial South. They were “indentured servants” from England, predating black slaves.

    You get busted for not fully understanding the concept of natural law, and now you have the audacity to refer to the situation as the “law of the jungle”?

    If I am to trust you, I simply mis-named what I identify as a law of nature, not men. My position is that there has never been any morality to how one population replaces another, of any species. You can argue with me all you want, but I suggest you try to argue with the family of coyotes that has moved onto my land and eats the small animals that live here…

    Which takes me to this:

    “You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do”

    Who are these “better men”? Would you put yourself in this category?

    I have lived most of my life outside the urban world. Even before attending college, I built my own shelter on forest land and lived in it I have friends who are farmers, as in people who feed you. I do know more about natural life than you do. I can tell.

    Finally,

    When you talk about “our property”, you are talking about YOUR property.

    That is correct. As a citizen of the United States of America, I am one of its owners. As a shareholder, I do speak for myself and for many others who understand that immigration must be curtailed in order to preserve our quality of life for ourselves and our Posterity.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "You still don’t get that my usage of “fair and square” is a joke!"

    If you want to triple down, go right ahead.

    "Father’s side traces back to New Haven Colony, now part of Connecticut, in the early 1600s. They were Puritans from England. Mother’s side traces back to the original, white slaves in the Colonial South. They were “indentured servants” from England, predating black slaves."

    Your mother's ancestors were not "white slaves", they were indentured servants.

    "If I am to trust you, I simply mis-named what I identify as a law of nature, not men."

    The law of nature includes our species, homo sapiens.

    "My position is that there has never been any morality to how one population replaces another, of any species."

    I provided two specific examples to the contrary.

    "I do know more about natural life than you do."

    That would be an opinion, not fact.

    "As a shareholder, I do speak for myself and for many others who understand that immigration must be curtailed in order to preserve our quality of life for ourselves and our Posterity."

    You only speak for yourself and those who agree with your position. There are other people who also seek to "preserve our quality of life for ourselves and our Posterity" who disagree with your positions. You make it seem that "your side" trumps any other side. That's now how it works.
  191. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    There are many examples of biracial Black Power types like Michelle Alexander. This is lizard brain stuff. They are biracial, but one of those races will never claim them. The way Michelle Alexander sees it, being rejected from a race can really determine how you look at the world. Also it's a pretty good living.

    Black Power doesn't have much in the way of objectives. Alexander doesn't really want all the mutts let out of jail. The main objective is to ruin whitey, so while supporting large-scale immigration may hurt blacks, it is much more important to ruin whitey's country. Attacking law enforcement, protecting criminals, undermining immigration law, none of these things help black people. Bu they do hurt America.

    Alexander was raised by her white family, but personal experience doesn't seem to matter much. Colin Kaepernick, deeply resentful of the people who raised him, identifies with the father who rejected him. Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine, radical cop hater who identifies with his father, who was part of the Mau-Mau rebellion and left his son at 16 months. Jesse Williams. Sean King I guess.

    Crazy ain’t it? Agree 100% on the psychology of what is going on with biracials like Michelle Alexander. Steve has posted her stuff before.
    Here is a top NY Times comment:

    Sue Mee
    Hartford CT Dec. 21
    If American citizens are not entitled to our borders, why is the author of this piece entitled to her home? Let a deserving person move in and move her out. As citizens, we work hard to make our own country greater, for example, by removing inequities as best we can but that does not mean we owe the entire world citizenship any more than we should give up our homes we worked hard for to a poor person. We cannot go to foreign countries and demand citizenship. Good citizens work hard to improve their own countries. Morality has little to do with the luck of the draw. My parents were not millionaires. That does not give me the right to break into someone else’s home and demand those benefits. Illegal immigration should continue to be unlawful and unacceptable.

    7 Replies 376 Recommend

  192. @Corvinus
    "Right, before Europeans, Honduras was a paradise."

    To the people who lived there, it was a paradise before the Europeans spoiled it.

    "Well they did practice human sacrifice..."

    Separate the fact from the fiction.

    https://allthatsinteresting.com/human-sacrifice

    Now let's go back to your statement "most non-Americans have ZERO legitimate interest in become Americans…” How do you know?

    According to your link,

    cultures now considered to be highly influential and civilized saw human sacrifice as a necessary part of everyday life.

    Oh, well if they saw it as a part of everyday life, that makes it totally OK – we are told that they were highly influential (on whom?) and civilized, so ripping out people’s beating hearts to placate the gods was OK.

    I’m sorry, but “civilized” and “practicing human sacrifice” are incompatible in my view. Would you be OK if we starting practicing human sacrifice on Central Americans? What if I told you that we’d like to make this a part of our everyday life, would that make it OK? Today’s top story is that some Central American refugee kid dropped dead of natural causes while staying in a refugee shelter and this one death is a cause celebre, but that the Mayans and the Aztecs sacrificed people by the tens of thousands was “a necessary part of everyday life” so it’s no big deal. I’m sorry but this is seriously fucked up.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    After a while, playing Pong with Corvinus gets old.

    http://computermuseum.50megs.com/images/ponganim.gif
    , @Corvinus
    "Oh, well if they saw it as a part of everyday life, that makes it totally OK – we are told that they were highly influential (on whom?) and civilized, so ripping out people’s beating hearts to placate the gods was OK."

    Civilized peoples engage in barbaric acts. The Europeans were no different. Would you like to know more, citizen?

    "I’m sorry, but “civilized” and “practicing human sacrifice” are incompatible in my view."

    I'm sorry, but "civilized" and "engaging in colonialism, slavery, and ethnic genocide" are incompatible in my view.

    "Would you be OK if we starting practicing human sacrifice on Central Americans? What if I told you that we’d like to make this a part of our everyday life, would that make it OK?"

    You act like I condone such savage activity. I assuredly do not. But their actions were no different from a inhumanity standpoint than Europeans who sought to routinely exterminate their enemies for mammon.

    Civilized people act savagely. That is coded in our DNA as human beings.

    "that the Mayans and the Aztecs sacrificed people by the tens of thousands was “a necessary part of everyday life” so it’s no big deal. I’m sorry but this is seriously fucked up."

    That the Thirteen Colonies sacrificed blacks by the tens of thousands by way of slavery was a "necessary part of everyday life" in the 1600 and 1700's, according to northern and southern colonists, so it's no big deal. I'm sorry but this is seriously f--- up.

    Again, civilized people act savagely. That is coded in our DNA as human beings.

  193. @Reg Cæsar

    None of Us Deserve [sic] Citizenship
     
    By that logic, none of us deserve life. That's why we say grace. Not that Michelle Alexander does.


    None of us deserves to be this lucky, either, but some are:


    Drunken driving suspect mostly unscathed in 100 mph crash


    Racine County authorities say a suspected drunk driver and his passenger walked away from a crash early Sunday, apparently without any serious injuries.

    Investigators estimate 30-year-old Tonny Griffin was driving at about 100 mph when he lost control on Highway 20 in the Village of Mount Pleasant. People living nearby say the crash was so loud it woke them up. Griffin’s sports car rolled six times, hitting several signs and a light pole before coming to a rest. Griffin was checked out at a hospital, then booked into the Racine County Jail.
     

    Both must have wearing seat belts. I hope he escapes a drunk driving prosecution. The county will demand he pay for demolishing traffic signs and denting a light pole.
    More details: ______ https://journaltimes.com/news/local/two-rollover-crashes-reported-in-mount-pleasant-no-serious-injuries/article_143458ed-336e-5270-a5fb-8bc8c9830b4b.html

  194. @Anonym
    Nice work Hail.

    She is blacker than Rachel Dolezal I will give her that.

    Well spotted.

  195. @Kylie
    Oh, good. We get to be lectured by a bossy "black" woman, herself a beneficiary of Affirmative Action, on how we don't deserve what we can because we didn't earn it.

    Such a refreshing change from being lectured by a bossy hyphenated American Jewess on how she doesn't feel confortable with the holiday customs of "her" country so we should stop observing them.

    The hoops you have to jump through around here merely to register “agree/disagree/etc” are a little too labor- intensive for me ten minutes before hitting the hay.

    So let me offer a simple “well said” instead.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    Thanks.
  196. Some asshole tried to stab me with a knife last night. (Got to love Mexinchifornia!) That kind of homicidal commitment right there takes a modicum of “courage, fortitude, and determination” – but that dirtbag doesn’t deserve any praise for being a bold criminal, and neither does the pregant Guatanicaduran in this story.

  197. @Steve Sailer
    A lot of decathlon stars going back to Daley Thompson in 1980/84 have been half-black, including Bryan Clay who is half Asian and half black. Not many all black decathlon stars, though.

    Ashton Eaton has perfect nature/nurture: half-black, half-white, raised in a small town in Oregon, the state where track & field is still big.

    You think that’s cool? What’s really cool is that the 1976 Olympic decathlon winner was a woman.

  198. anon[408] • Disclaimer says:

    None of Us Deserve Citizenship
    On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?

    actually we did earn it, by building this country

    all the trash that she wants to let in, they all have countries of their own and land of their own. If they’re too stupid or too lazy to build their own countries, that’s their fault, not mine.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "actually we did earn it, by building this country"

    Indeed, primarily WASPs, along with the Spanish, French, Dutch, Swedish, and Germans, as well as African slaves and several tribal groups. So, if you do not trace directly your ancestors to these specific groups by 1750 colonial America, they did not build anything. And you are nothing but an interloper.
  199. @SonOfFrankenstein
    So sad that a great American and athlete like Ashton Eaton has to be characterized as an "unusual looking first generation cross". He isn't exactly a household name but deserves to be, given his athleticism (2012, 2016 Olympic Gold Medalist in the decathlon), good looks, and accomplishments. I guess he wasn't marketable to the extent of other athletes who embrace controversy and self-aggrandizement. I hope Ashton and his beautiful wife retired Canadian heptathlete Brianne Theisen-Eaton (bronze medal 2016) have beautiful children.

    I hope Ashton and his beautiful wife retired Canadian heptathlete Brianne Theisen-Eaton (bronze medal 2016) have beautiful children.

    that’s the important thing

  200. @Mr. Anon

    90% of law professors are hard left. They have high incomes and lots of free time for activism.

    We could throw a third or more of them out of work by ending federal student loans for law schools.
     
    I agree. We should in general turn down the student loan spigot. I am also in favor of abolishing the practice of tenure. Make it easier to fire academics. Make them have to shift and worry about keeping their job like most other people have to. As you point out, one of the requirements for activism is having the free time - and the job security - to engage in it. We should deny that privilege to them.

    The problem with ending tenure is that it would lead to the expulsion of the few remaining right-wing professors from academia.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    The problem with ending tenure is that it would lead to the expulsion of the few remaining right-wing professors from academia.
     
    The problem with keeping it is greater. In the grand scheme of things, they are irrelevant. Right-wing professors are a wasting asset anyway; there aren't going to be many more of them. Ending tenure would make it easier to fire professors. I'm contemplating here a scenario where state legislatures largely defund whole departments. The "X-studies" departments in particular.

    The right loses because it won't treat politics the way the left does - as warfare.
  201. @Jack D
    According to your link,

    cultures now considered to be highly influential and civilized saw human sacrifice as a necessary part of everyday life.
     
    Oh, well if they saw it as a part of everyday life, that makes it totally OK - we are told that they were highly influential (on whom?) and civilized, so ripping out people's beating hearts to placate the gods was OK.

    I'm sorry, but "civilized" and "practicing human sacrifice" are incompatible in my view. Would you be OK if we starting practicing human sacrifice on Central Americans? What if I told you that we'd like to make this a part of our everyday life, would that make it OK? Today's top story is that some Central American refugee kid dropped dead of natural causes while staying in a refugee shelter and this one death is a cause celebre, but that the Mayans and the Aztecs sacrificed people by the tens of thousands was "a necessary part of everyday life" so it's no big deal. I'm sorry but this is seriously fucked up.

    After a while, playing Pong with Corvinus gets old.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    Perfect.
    , @Jack D
    I know that I am not going to get anywhere with Corvinus himself but maybe some sane people are reading this too. The link he gives is really an amazing illustration of Leftist double standards. Anything that white capitalists do (especially American ones) is per se evil, but brown people can do anything up to and including human sacrifice and it's totally OK, even praiseworthy. It really clarifies what you are up against.
  202. @Jack Highlands
    You repeated Anon's mistake, though as you say, this is pretty basic-bitch stuff for iSteve readers. Anyway, it's White male/Black female that tends to be fairly stable and as stated, Black male/White female that's not.

    Anyway, it’s White male/Black female that tends to be fairly stable and as stated, Black male/White female that’s not.

    probably because the black males are used to getting away with violence

    eventually the white female has enough

  203. anon[408] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus
    "Right, before Europeans, Honduras was a paradise."

    To the people who lived there, it was a paradise before the Europeans spoiled it.

    "Well they did practice human sacrifice..."

    Separate the fact from the fiction.

    https://allthatsinteresting.com/human-sacrifice

    Now let's go back to your statement "most non-Americans have ZERO legitimate interest in become Americans…” How do you know?

    from your link:

    Blood was viewed as an incomparable source of nourishment for Mayan deities. In a time before scientific understanding, human blood became the ultimate offering and was kept flowing to protect their daily way of life.

    These sacrificial rituals were held in such high regard that only prisoners of war of the highest status could be used for them; other captives were typically sent into the labor force.

    The most common methods were decapitation and heart removal, neither of which would occur until the victim had been thoroughly tortured.

    whoever is behind the website seems to be proud of it

  204. @Reg Cæsar

    Ashland, Oregon is one of the zip codes identified as an out-of-touch bubble by Charles Murray. It is a slice of Berkeley dropped into the woods midway between SF and Portland.

     

    Ashland, Kentucky is quite different:

    https://www.areavibes.com/ashland-ky/employment/




    http://www.womenofgreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/helping_rural_women5.jpg


    But at least it ain't Beattyville:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/12/beattyville-kentucky-and-americas-poorest-towns

    Ashland, KY is a slice of Cracker dropped into the no man’s land between the coastal elites and what they want to acquire. By the laws of succession, the natives will be eliminated through attrition if fire is contained and the ground is colonized by shade tolerant tribes. But the shade intolerant crackers have always favored fire as a tool for preparing the ground for planting. Outcome still uncertain.

  205. @Buzz Mohawk
    After a while, playing Pong with Corvinus gets old.

    http://computermuseum.50megs.com/images/ponganim.gif

    Perfect.

  206. anon[355] • Disclaimer says:
    @Saxon
    Only when the white in it is the man does it have a divorce rate lower than the white:white baseline by something like 4%, and that's probably because near zero white men actually find black women attractive so it takes a real fetishist for starters. The reverse, when it's a white woman, is almost guaranteed single motherhood.

    “when it’s a white woman, is almost guaranteed single motherhood.”

    I have to agree 99% with this based on my observations. Date a brother, become a single mother. I know some nice white girls, who had promising futures who basically have thrown away their lives this way. I just don’t get it.

  207. @Rob McX
    The problem with ending tenure is that it would lead to the expulsion of the few remaining right-wing professors from academia.

    The problem with ending tenure is that it would lead to the expulsion of the few remaining right-wing professors from academia.

    The problem with keeping it is greater. In the grand scheme of things, they are irrelevant. Right-wing professors are a wasting asset anyway; there aren’t going to be many more of them. Ending tenure would make it easier to fire professors. I’m contemplating here a scenario where state legislatures largely defund whole departments. The “X-studies” departments in particular.

    The right loses because it won’t treat politics the way the left does – as warfare.

  208. @Rosie

    I agree. We should in general turn down the student loan spigot. I am also in favor of abolishing the practice of tenure. Make it easier to fire academics. Make them have to shift and worry about keeping their job like most other people have to. As you point out, one of the requirements for activism is having the free time – and the job security – to engage in it. We should deny that privilege to them.
     
    It pains me somewhat to say so, but I have to agree. The idea that academics should be protected with tenure assumes the pitchfork conception of the common people: that they are simple-minded brutes who reject new ideas just because they are new. On this view, scholarship is to the people as pearls to swine, and the academic must be protected from their irrational hostility. But this power is just too great. Absolutely nothing can prevail against the power to indoctrinate the youth with no accountability.

    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2357/1659482830_42231fb724_b.jpg

    The idea that academics should be protected with tenure assumes the pitchfork conception of the common people: that they are simple-minded brutes who reject new ideas just because they are new.

    In the modern university, it is often the academics who are the pitchfork wielding brutes.

  209. While many people have been misled by Verhoeven’s film into thinking that Heinlein’s book advocates fascism, it is in fact radically globalist. So an individual does indeed acquire the right to vote (and hold office) via their own courage & fortitude, regardless of where they are born, but their children don’t inherit that right and must therefore earn it for themselves if they really want it. Only you don’t earn it by doing something on behalf of yourself & your family, but for the broader polis (which actually encompasses multiple worlds, so perhaps “globalist” is too limited a term).

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    It's non-nationalist meritocratic fascism, or globalism made coherent with meritocracy and fascism. Fascism isn't inherently nationalist, though in this case the planet is the "nation." The fascist part is in the militarism and meritocracy. A fascio is a basic militia unit -- strongly implying but not requiring national identity.
  210. @TGGP
    While many people have been misled by Verhoeven's film into thinking that Heinlein's book advocates fascism, it is in fact radically globalist. So an individual does indeed acquire the right to vote (and hold office) via their own courage & fortitude, regardless of where they are born, but their children don't inherit that right and must therefore earn it for themselves if they really want it. Only you don't earn it by doing something on behalf of yourself & your family, but for the broader polis (which actually encompasses multiple worlds, so perhaps "globalist" is too limited a term).

    It’s non-nationalist meritocratic fascism, or globalism made coherent with meritocracy and fascism. Fascism isn’t inherently nationalist, though in this case the planet is the “nation.” The fascist part is in the militarism and meritocracy. A fascio is a basic militia unit — strongly implying but not requiring national identity.

  211. @Ragno
    The hoops you have to jump through around here merely to register "agree/disagree/etc" are a little too labor- intensive for me ten minutes before hitting the hay.

    So let me offer a simple "well said" instead.

    Thanks.

  212. @Paul
    What do people at the New York Times think of ethnically cleansed Palestinians being shot while trying to return to Palestine/Israel?

    They think that they are being used as political pawns and human shields so terrorists can sneak in with them and kidnap/murder Israeli school children. They wish that the US government had the cojones to enforce the US border the way the Israelis protect their own sovereignty.

    The people approaching the border fence were not “ethnically cleansed” – they are the grandchildren or great grandchildren of those who left in ’48. There are millions of descendants of the expelled all over the world – Jews, Germans, Greeks, Indians, etc. but most of them have moved on long ago.

    • Replies: @anon

    They wish that the US government had the cojones to enforce the US border the way the Israelis protect their own sovereignty.
     
    it doesn't take cojones, it just takes a govt that is serious about it
  213. @Anon

    Don’t black-white couples have some of the lowest divorce rates?
     
    It depends. White female / black male tends to be fairly stable. Black male / white female is something above 90% failure rate by year seven. It's an almost guaranteed path to single motherhood.

    You need to re-read your comment.

  214. @Corvinus
    "Honduras has been a shitty place more or less forever..."

    Only until European jackbooting. Thanks, international fruit companies!

    "What she says is true, but most non-Americans have ZERO legitimate interest in become Americans..."

    And you know this...how?

    Only until European jackbooting.

    Only? Hyperbolize much?

    From my experience, Honduras isn’t that bad. All this caterwauling about needing to ship them here to save their lives is more Narrative development.

    All the blaming and demonizing of the European is a convenience to justify non-performance of your usual pets, but it is a damaging strategy in the long run. Of what do you think Hondurans are ultimately capable? Do you think they can pick up their trash; repair their facilities; police their own crime; or are they so crippled by European influence that they are incapable of anything unless they move to a European influenced country and degrade the place as a form of therapy?

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "All the blaming and demonizing of the European is a convenience to justify non-performance of your usual pets, but it is a damaging strategy in the long run."

    Did they not invade the world and invite the world? They should have picked their own damn cotton.

    "Of what do you think Hondurans are ultimately capable?"

    Being humane. Do you even read the Bible?

    "Do you think they can pick up their trash..."

    You would be surprised at the advancements of the Mayans. Perhaps it escapes you that prior to the 18th century, the germ theory of disease was unknown to Europeans, sanitation was generally non-existent, and waterways were badly polluted.

    https://whyfiles.org/2010/plumbing-ancient-mayan-plumbing/index.html


    "European influenced country and degrade the place as a form of therapy?"

    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800's. So, did magic dirt change them for the better?
  215. @Jack D
    They think that they are being used as political pawns and human shields so terrorists can sneak in with them and kidnap/murder Israeli school children. They wish that the US government had the cojones to enforce the US border the way the Israelis protect their own sovereignty.

    The people approaching the border fence were not "ethnically cleansed" - they are the grandchildren or great grandchildren of those who left in '48. There are millions of descendants of the expelled all over the world - Jews, Germans, Greeks, Indians, etc. but most of them have moved on long ago.

    They wish that the US government had the cojones to enforce the US border the way the Israelis protect their own sovereignty.

    it doesn’t take cojones, it just takes a govt that is serious about it

  216. @Buffalo Joe
    Corvinus, You speak about property, almost as if it doesn't exist, but in terms of land or territory it certainly does. Long before the first European settler stepped on the American continents the indigenous peoples claimed and held territory. The Comanches warred on the Apaches, The Seneca warred on the Mohawk, who warred on the Huron, all over territory. People establish a culture in an area, respecting rules if not laws. I don't remember the NYT lamenting the fact that a white missionary had the temerity to set foot on a distant island and lost his life because of it. If I recall the narrative was that these people had the right to be left alone. Seems to me that people do have the right, moral and legal, to determine who is allowed on their "Property."

    “Corvinus, You speak about property, almost as if it doesn’t exist,…”

    That would a false premise on your part. Of course property and the right to property exists. Except it is a European concept, one that was completely foreign to Native Americans.

    Now, officially, the United States of America is “owned” by the People of the United States of America collectively, which means every citizen of the United States has a right to dictate how the United States works and operates through elected representatives. Yet, “United States of America” is a “legal fiction” in the fact that while many people agree it exists, it means different things to different people. From orbit, while we could point at a blob of land and say “That is the USA”, it is only because we mutually agree as to its existence, its borders and its definition that it exists. So the United States as “our property”refers to the people deciding individually what we ought and ought not to do regarding policies and procedures for newcomers.

    From my vantage point, Buzz is making it appear that only a certain subset of our citizenry can and will make those “rules”, rather than “We The People”.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Corvinus, except Native Americans sold their land when they wanted iron goods and skinned alive horse thieves.
  217. @Buzz Mohawk

    LOL, you don’t know if you are coming or going. You state that “we” won this land “fair and square”, then backtrack and say there is no “fair and square”, that it is essentially a free for all.
     
    You still don't get that my usage of "fair and square" is a joke! Your hyper intellectual literalism is a lot funnier than the joke. (I was going to say "your Aspergers," but I don't want insult anyone with that problem, even you.)

    Unless you are able to directly trace both of your British Isles ancestors directly to colonial times, say prior to 1750, you are not part of this “we” or “our” or “us”. You have to go back.
     
    Father's side traces back to New Haven Colony, now part of Connecticut, in the early 1600s. They were Puritans from England. Mother's side traces back to the original, white slaves in the Colonial South. They were "indentured servants" from England, predating black slaves.

    You get busted for not fully understanding the concept of natural law, and now you have the audacity to refer to the situation as the “law of the jungle”?
     
    If I am to trust you, I simply mis-named what I identify as a law of nature, not men. My position is that there has never been any morality to how one population replaces another, of any species. You can argue with me all you want, but I suggest you try to argue with the family of coyotes that has moved onto my land and eats the small animals that live here...

    Which takes me to this:


    “You may never have lived anyplace where you can observe nature outside an urban human fantasy where you are fed and supported by better men who do”

    Who are these “better men”? Would you put yourself in this category?
     

    I have lived most of my life outside the urban world. Even before attending college, I built my own shelter on forest land and lived in it I have friends who are farmers, as in people who feed you. I do know more about natural life than you do. I can tell.

    Finally,


    When you talk about “our property”, you are talking about YOUR property.
     
    That is correct. As a citizen of the United States of America, I am one of its owners. As a shareholder, I do speak for myself and for many others who understand that immigration must be curtailed in order to preserve our quality of life for ourselves and our Posterity.

    “You still don’t get that my usage of “fair and square” is a joke!”

    If you want to triple down, go right ahead.

    “Father’s side traces back to New Haven Colony, now part of Connecticut, in the early 1600s. They were Puritans from England. Mother’s side traces back to the original, white slaves in the Colonial South. They were “indentured servants” from England, predating black slaves.”

    Your mother’s ancestors were not “white slaves”, they were indentured servants.

    “If I am to trust you, I simply mis-named what I identify as a law of nature, not men.”

    The law of nature includes our species, homo sapiens.

    “My position is that there has never been any morality to how one population replaces another, of any species.”

    I provided two specific examples to the contrary.

    “I do know more about natural life than you do.”

    That would be an opinion, not fact.

    “As a shareholder, I do speak for myself and for many others who understand that immigration must be curtailed in order to preserve our quality of life for ourselves and our Posterity.”

    You only speak for yourself and those who agree with your position. There are other people who also seek to “preserve our quality of life for ourselves and our Posterity” who disagree with your positions. You make it seem that “your side” trumps any other side. That’s now how it works.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    http://computermuseum.50megs.com/images/ponganim.gif
  218. @James N. Kennett

    Michelle Alexander is a racial agit-prop writer, who argues that disparity of incarceration rates are the new version of slavery and segregation, and we won’t ever be truly equal unless races are incarcerated at equal rates.
     
    Disparate impact means that the War on Drugs is really a war on blacks, and therefore must be stopped. By the same measure, the war on "deadbeat dads" is also a war on blacks, yet the NYT will not be calling for it to end. Because Intersectional Pokemon Points, or something.

    “Disparate impact means that the War on Drugs is really a war on blacks…”

    Actually, had you been paying attention, it’s a war on whites.

    https://www.npr.org/2017/11/04/562137082/why-is-the-opioid-epidemic-overwhelmingly-white

  219. @Jack D
    According to your link,

    cultures now considered to be highly influential and civilized saw human sacrifice as a necessary part of everyday life.
     
    Oh, well if they saw it as a part of everyday life, that makes it totally OK - we are told that they were highly influential (on whom?) and civilized, so ripping out people's beating hearts to placate the gods was OK.

    I'm sorry, but "civilized" and "practicing human sacrifice" are incompatible in my view. Would you be OK if we starting practicing human sacrifice on Central Americans? What if I told you that we'd like to make this a part of our everyday life, would that make it OK? Today's top story is that some Central American refugee kid dropped dead of natural causes while staying in a refugee shelter and this one death is a cause celebre, but that the Mayans and the Aztecs sacrificed people by the tens of thousands was "a necessary part of everyday life" so it's no big deal. I'm sorry but this is seriously fucked up.

    “Oh, well if they saw it as a part of everyday life, that makes it totally OK – we are told that they were highly influential (on whom?) and civilized, so ripping out people’s beating hearts to placate the gods was OK.”

    Civilized peoples engage in barbaric acts. The Europeans were no different. Would you like to know more, citizen?

    “I’m sorry, but “civilized” and “practicing human sacrifice” are incompatible in my view.”

    I’m sorry, but “civilized” and “engaging in colonialism, slavery, and ethnic genocide” are incompatible in my view.

    “Would you be OK if we starting practicing human sacrifice on Central Americans? What if I told you that we’d like to make this a part of our everyday life, would that make it OK?”

    You act like I condone such savage activity. I assuredly do not. But their actions were no different from a inhumanity standpoint than Europeans who sought to routinely exterminate their enemies for mammon.

    Civilized people act savagely. That is coded in our DNA as human beings.

    “that the Mayans and the Aztecs sacrificed people by the tens of thousands was “a necessary part of everyday life” so it’s no big deal. I’m sorry but this is seriously fucked up.”

    That the Thirteen Colonies sacrificed blacks by the tens of thousands by way of slavery was a “necessary part of everyday life” in the 1600 and 1700’s, according to northern and southern colonists, so it’s no big deal. I’m sorry but this is seriously f— up.

    Again, civilized people act savagely. That is coded in our DNA as human beings.

  220. @SonOfFrankenstein
    So sad that a great American and athlete like Ashton Eaton has to be characterized as an "unusual looking first generation cross". He isn't exactly a household name but deserves to be, given his athleticism (2012, 2016 Olympic Gold Medalist in the decathlon), good looks, and accomplishments. I guess he wasn't marketable to the extent of other athletes who embrace controversy and self-aggrandizement. I hope Ashton and his beautiful wife retired Canadian heptathlete Brianne Theisen-Eaton (bronze medal 2016) have beautiful children.

    “I hope Ashton and his beautiful wife retired Canadian heptathlete Brianne Theisen-Eaton (bronze medal 2016) have beautiful children.”

    Exactly. But you do realize you are promoting race mixing, which I thought was a big no-no among members of the Alt Right.

  221. @Buzz Mohawk
    After a while, playing Pong with Corvinus gets old.

    http://computermuseum.50megs.com/images/ponganim.gif

    I know that I am not going to get anywhere with Corvinus himself but maybe some sane people are reading this too. The link he gives is really an amazing illustration of Leftist double standards. Anything that white capitalists do (especially American ones) is per se evil, but brown people can do anything up to and including human sacrifice and it’s totally OK, even praiseworthy. It really clarifies what you are up against.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "The link he gives is really an amazing illustration of Leftist double standards. Anything that white capitalists do (especially American ones) is per se evil, but brown people can do anything up to and including human sacrifice and it’s totally OK, even praiseworthy."

    Grow up. Leftists, nor I as a moderate, are not "totally OK" with human sacrifice. All you are doing here is making yourself look foolish by erecting a strawman. I thought only Jews make such an effort when it comes to rhetorical fallacies.

    The fact of the matter is you, like those on the hard left, are trying to put into a "moral hierarchy" that certain acts are more or less "savage". Human sacrifice, slavery, and the colonization of Africa only demonstrate the human capacity for butchery regardless if it was Europeans, the Mayans, or anyone in between.

  222. @Inquiring Mind
    And Sharif Ali served in the Red Army? Who knew?

    And Sharif Ali served in the Red Army? Who knew?

    And the Russian Imperial Army. Prince Faisal served in both as well.

    The Great War was a complicated affair. You have to deploy the talent you’ve got wherever it’s needed.

    Aapparently is the approach some directors take as well.

  223. @Corvinus
    "You still don’t get that my usage of “fair and square” is a joke!"

    If you want to triple down, go right ahead.

    "Father’s side traces back to New Haven Colony, now part of Connecticut, in the early 1600s. They were Puritans from England. Mother’s side traces back to the original, white slaves in the Colonial South. They were “indentured servants” from England, predating black slaves."

    Your mother's ancestors were not "white slaves", they were indentured servants.

    "If I am to trust you, I simply mis-named what I identify as a law of nature, not men."

    The law of nature includes our species, homo sapiens.

    "My position is that there has never been any morality to how one population replaces another, of any species."

    I provided two specific examples to the contrary.

    "I do know more about natural life than you do."

    That would be an opinion, not fact.

    "As a shareholder, I do speak for myself and for many others who understand that immigration must be curtailed in order to preserve our quality of life for ourselves and our Posterity."

    You only speak for yourself and those who agree with your position. There are other people who also seek to "preserve our quality of life for ourselves and our Posterity" who disagree with your positions. You make it seem that "your side" trumps any other side. That's now how it works.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    Exactly what you have to end up resorting to, Buzz. Congratulations, "mother" and "father" would be proud of their "Heritage American".
  224. @Dave Pinsen
    Michelle makes a good argument against birthright citizenship. For starters, let’s eliminate it for the children of non-Americans.

    Logically it is a weird argument from the Michelle, who appears to be a highly vanillaized “black” and whose–quick glance–oeuvre seems to be entirely black grievance.

    The basic black argument is “we blacks deserve all sorts of goodies because … slavery, Jim Crow, ‘we built America without compensation’”. It’s particularistic, historic and depends highly on inheritance.

    Michelle here is instead parroting the Jewish argument: Jews (universalized to everyone for marketing purposes) are entitled to go anywhere and everywhere that seems ripe for their middle-man-minority shtick. No one is entitled to say “no”. No one is entitled to their own nation with their own people. (Being stuck in the Pale with fellow Jews, and not being able to penetrate and exploit the rest of Russia–without conversion–was immoral, genocidal, particularly Hitlerish.)
    (It’s quite a rapey ideology. No one can say no to us!)

    I guess Michelle knows who her paymasters are. Though–guessing–she probably isn’t sharp enough to notice that the two arguments are logically at loggerheads. Though as Steve has pointed out the common “white man must bend over” element provides the warm emotional glow that keeps the fringes hanging together and outshines minor nits like logical incoherence.

  225. American citizens are invested in the wellbeing of their nation. Illegal immigrants are not!

  226. Anonymous [AKA "9thGateKeeper"] says:

    Michelle Alexander is black and insane.

    That’s not racist, it’s just true.

  227. @Jack D
    I know that I am not going to get anywhere with Corvinus himself but maybe some sane people are reading this too. The link he gives is really an amazing illustration of Leftist double standards. Anything that white capitalists do (especially American ones) is per se evil, but brown people can do anything up to and including human sacrifice and it's totally OK, even praiseworthy. It really clarifies what you are up against.

    “The link he gives is really an amazing illustration of Leftist double standards. Anything that white capitalists do (especially American ones) is per se evil, but brown people can do anything up to and including human sacrifice and it’s totally OK, even praiseworthy.”

    Grow up. Leftists, nor I as a moderate, are not “totally OK” with human sacrifice. All you are doing here is making yourself look foolish by erecting a strawman. I thought only Jews make such an effort when it comes to rhetorical fallacies.

    The fact of the matter is you, like those on the hard left, are trying to put into a “moral hierarchy” that certain acts are more or less “savage”. Human sacrifice, slavery, and the colonization of Africa only demonstrate the human capacity for butchery regardless if it was Europeans, the Mayans, or anyone in between.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/105/flashcards/5276105/png/xipe_totec-145AFA1762A0D1D542D.png

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/6e/fd/026efd4b3ea02feb46e888dcf8e24ea7.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Aztec_statue_of_Coatlicue,_the_earth_goddess.jpg


    https://napolirestaurantalert.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/david_marked.jpg

    https://amykeeley.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/apollo_belvedere_vatican_museums.jpg


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhf7dCoO9XI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MqrBauptrE
  228. @Buzz Mohawk
    http://computermuseum.50megs.com/images/ponganim.gif

    Exactly what you have to end up resorting to, Buzz. Congratulations, “mother” and “father” would be proud of their “Heritage American”.

    • Replies: @Sam Malone
    Corvinus, I'm curious how you regard yourself in relation to most of us here in the isteve-osphere. Do you have any sympathy with our immigration-related concerns but maybe think we take it too far - maybe think of yourself as providing a necessary corrective or reality check - or are your own views opposed enough to the mainstream here that you really don't particularly care for us?

    I just ask because in a way I can't help but admire your dogged determination in persistently countering so many people here with responses that are usually lengthy and fairly substantive. In other words, you're not a troll, or hateful or purposefully simplistic like a poster like Tiny Duck. So thanks for that, and I guess for keeping us on our toes intellectually.

  229. @anon

    None of Us Deserve Citizenship
    On what moral grounds can we deny others rights, privileges and opportunities that we did not earn ourselves?
     
    actually we did earn it, by building this country

    all the trash that she wants to let in, they all have countries of their own and land of their own. If they're too stupid or too lazy to build their own countries, that's their fault, not mine.

    “actually we did earn it, by building this country”

    Indeed, primarily WASPs, along with the Spanish, French, Dutch, Swedish, and Germans, as well as African slaves and several tribal groups. So, if you do not trace directly your ancestors to these specific groups by 1750 colonial America, they did not build anything. And you are nothing but an interloper.

  230. @bomag

    Only until European jackbooting.
     
    Only? Hyperbolize much?

    From my experience, Honduras isn't that bad. All this caterwauling about needing to ship them here to save their lives is more Narrative development.

    All the blaming and demonizing of the European is a convenience to justify non-performance of your usual pets, but it is a damaging strategy in the long run. Of what do you think Hondurans are ultimately capable? Do you think they can pick up their trash; repair their facilities; police their own crime; or are they so crippled by European influence that they are incapable of anything unless they move to a European influenced country and degrade the place as a form of therapy?

    “All the blaming and demonizing of the European is a convenience to justify non-performance of your usual pets, but it is a damaging strategy in the long run.”

    Did they not invade the world and invite the world? They should have picked their own damn cotton.

    “Of what do you think Hondurans are ultimately capable?”

    Being humane. Do you even read the Bible?

    “Do you think they can pick up their trash…”

    You would be surprised at the advancements of the Mayans. Perhaps it escapes you that prior to the 18th century, the germ theory of disease was unknown to Europeans, sanitation was generally non-existent, and waterways were badly polluted.

    https://whyfiles.org/2010/plumbing-ancient-mayan-plumbing/index.html

    “European influenced country and degrade the place as a form of therapy?”

    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800’s. So, did magic dirt change them for the better?

    • Replies: @bomag

    Did they not invade the world and invite the world? They should have picked their own damn cotton.
     
    Agree, but effects are overstated. We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay. There's much more to all this, but the blame game is in full swing.


    You would be surprised at the advancements of the Mayans...
     
    Good for the Mayans and bad for the Europeans, then; but I'm interested in what became of it and where we are today. I don't see the advantage to investing in modern day Mayans and dis-investing in current Europeans.


    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800′s.
     
    Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the "void" could well have been a better option.
  231. @Corvinus
    "Corvinus, You speak about property, almost as if it doesn’t exist,..."

    That would a false premise on your part. Of course property and the right to property exists. Except it is a European concept, one that was completely foreign to Native Americans.

    Now, officially, the United States of America is "owned" by the People of the United States of America collectively, which means every citizen of the United States has a right to dictate how the United States works and operates through elected representatives. Yet, “United States of America” is a “legal fiction” in the fact that while many people agree it exists, it means different things to different people. From orbit, while we could point at a blob of land and say “That is the USA”, it is only because we mutually agree as to its existence, its borders and its definition that it exists. So the United States as "our property"refers to the people deciding individually what we ought and ought not to do regarding policies and procedures for newcomers.

    From my vantage point, Buzz is making it appear that only a certain subset of our citizenry can and will make those "rules", rather than "We The People".

    Corvinus, except Native Americans sold their land when they wanted iron goods and skinned alive horse thieves.

  232. @Corvinus
    "The link he gives is really an amazing illustration of Leftist double standards. Anything that white capitalists do (especially American ones) is per se evil, but brown people can do anything up to and including human sacrifice and it’s totally OK, even praiseworthy."

    Grow up. Leftists, nor I as a moderate, are not "totally OK" with human sacrifice. All you are doing here is making yourself look foolish by erecting a strawman. I thought only Jews make such an effort when it comes to rhetorical fallacies.

    The fact of the matter is you, like those on the hard left, are trying to put into a "moral hierarchy" that certain acts are more or less "savage". Human sacrifice, slavery, and the colonization of Africa only demonstrate the human capacity for butchery regardless if it was Europeans, the Mayans, or anyone in between.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    Great artwork all the way around.
  233. This is why I emphasize that we’re not in a debate, we’re in a fight. The other side doesn’t listen, and probably can’t listen.

    Excellent comment there and some of your others recently, Counter Insurgency, though I’d recommend not making them quite so long.

  234. @Corvinus
    Exactly what you have to end up resorting to, Buzz. Congratulations, "mother" and "father" would be proud of their "Heritage American".

    Corvinus, I’m curious how you regard yourself in relation to most of us here in the isteve-osphere. Do you have any sympathy with our immigration-related concerns but maybe think we take it too far – maybe think of yourself as providing a necessary corrective or reality check – or are your own views opposed enough to the mainstream here that you really don’t particularly care for us?

    I just ask because in a way I can’t help but admire your dogged determination in persistently countering so many people here with responses that are usually lengthy and fairly substantive. In other words, you’re not a troll, or hateful or purposefully simplistic like a poster like Tiny Duck. So thanks for that, and I guess for keeping us on our toes intellectually.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Corvinus, I’m curious how you regard yourself in relation to most of us here in the isteve-osphere."

    I come here for knowledge and discourse.

    "Do you have any sympathy with our immigration-related concerns but maybe think we take it too far"

    Believe it or not, and I have said this before here, I support immigration restrictions. The federal government should be cracking down on H1B visas, illegal immigration, and birthright citizenship. We have laws on the books to bust companies who employ illegal immigrants. The problem is that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans want to seriously tackle this issue.

    Do I support building the wall? No, I want more trained border patrol officers and enforcement of our current laws in place.

    Do I support banning certain immigrant groups from entering our nation? No, because I do not buy it that they are inherently evil, or less talented, or utterly incapable of assimilating.

    "– maybe think of yourself as providing a necessary corrective or reality check – or are your own views opposed enough to the mainstream here that you really don’t particularly care for us?"

    We all tend to gravitate toward confirmation bias. The key is to resist the urge, take an honest look inwardly, and seek multiple sources from different perspectives to arrive at "the truth", whatever that all entails.
  235. @Sam Malone
    Corvinus, I'm curious how you regard yourself in relation to most of us here in the isteve-osphere. Do you have any sympathy with our immigration-related concerns but maybe think we take it too far - maybe think of yourself as providing a necessary corrective or reality check - or are your own views opposed enough to the mainstream here that you really don't particularly care for us?

    I just ask because in a way I can't help but admire your dogged determination in persistently countering so many people here with responses that are usually lengthy and fairly substantive. In other words, you're not a troll, or hateful or purposefully simplistic like a poster like Tiny Duck. So thanks for that, and I guess for keeping us on our toes intellectually.

    “Corvinus, I’m curious how you regard yourself in relation to most of us here in the isteve-osphere.”

    I come here for knowledge and discourse.

    “Do you have any sympathy with our immigration-related concerns but maybe think we take it too far”

    Believe it or not, and I have said this before here, I support immigration restrictions. The federal government should be cracking down on H1B visas, illegal immigration, and birthright citizenship. We have laws on the books to bust companies who employ illegal immigrants. The problem is that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans want to seriously tackle this issue.

    Do I support building the wall? No, I want more trained border patrol officers and enforcement of our current laws in place.

    Do I support banning certain immigrant groups from entering our nation? No, because I do not buy it that they are inherently evil, or less talented, or utterly incapable of assimilating.

    “– maybe think of yourself as providing a necessary corrective or reality check – or are your own views opposed enough to the mainstream here that you really don’t particularly care for us?”

    We all tend to gravitate toward confirmation bias. The key is to resist the urge, take an honest look inwardly, and seek multiple sources from different perspectives to arrive at “the truth”, whatever that all entails.

    • Replies: @Sam Malone

    We all tend to gravitate toward confirmation bias. The key is to resist the urge, take an honest look inwardly, and seek multiple sources from different perspectives to arrive at “the truth”, whatever that all entails.
     
    That's of course very true. I've often been irritated - sometimes highly so - at seeing your ongoing, detailed non-agreeing conversations or arguments with others here, but you do help keep this place from becoming our own personal echo chamber. Thanks for the response.
    , @syonredux

    Do I support banning certain immigrant groups from entering our nation? No, because I do not buy it that they are inherently evil, or less talented, or utterly incapable of assimilating.
     
    Hasn't happened with Blacks....Very little success with Latinx....No real reason to think that it will work with Muslims.....
  236. @Corvinus
    "Corvinus, I’m curious how you regard yourself in relation to most of us here in the isteve-osphere."

    I come here for knowledge and discourse.

    "Do you have any sympathy with our immigration-related concerns but maybe think we take it too far"

    Believe it or not, and I have said this before here, I support immigration restrictions. The federal government should be cracking down on H1B visas, illegal immigration, and birthright citizenship. We have laws on the books to bust companies who employ illegal immigrants. The problem is that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans want to seriously tackle this issue.

    Do I support building the wall? No, I want more trained border patrol officers and enforcement of our current laws in place.

    Do I support banning certain immigrant groups from entering our nation? No, because I do not buy it that they are inherently evil, or less talented, or utterly incapable of assimilating.

    "– maybe think of yourself as providing a necessary corrective or reality check – or are your own views opposed enough to the mainstream here that you really don’t particularly care for us?"

    We all tend to gravitate toward confirmation bias. The key is to resist the urge, take an honest look inwardly, and seek multiple sources from different perspectives to arrive at "the truth", whatever that all entails.

    We all tend to gravitate toward confirmation bias. The key is to resist the urge, take an honest look inwardly, and seek multiple sources from different perspectives to arrive at “the truth”, whatever that all entails.

    That’s of course very true. I’ve often been irritated – sometimes highly so – at seeing your ongoing, detailed non-agreeing conversations or arguments with others here, but you do help keep this place from becoming our own personal echo chamber. Thanks for the response.

  237. @Corvinus
    "All the blaming and demonizing of the European is a convenience to justify non-performance of your usual pets, but it is a damaging strategy in the long run."

    Did they not invade the world and invite the world? They should have picked their own damn cotton.

    "Of what do you think Hondurans are ultimately capable?"

    Being humane. Do you even read the Bible?

    "Do you think they can pick up their trash..."

    You would be surprised at the advancements of the Mayans. Perhaps it escapes you that prior to the 18th century, the germ theory of disease was unknown to Europeans, sanitation was generally non-existent, and waterways were badly polluted.

    https://whyfiles.org/2010/plumbing-ancient-mayan-plumbing/index.html


    "European influenced country and degrade the place as a form of therapy?"

    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800's. So, did magic dirt change them for the better?

    Did they not invade the world and invite the world? They should have picked their own damn cotton.

    Agree, but effects are overstated. We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay. There’s much more to all this, but the blame game is in full swing.

    You would be surprised at the advancements of the Mayans…

    Good for the Mayans and bad for the Europeans, then; but I’m interested in what became of it and where we are today. I don’t see the advantage to investing in modern day Mayans and dis-investing in current Europeans.

    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800′s.

    Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Agree, but effects are overstated."

    Not really.

    "We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay."

    We influenced their policies. Some would say unduly, others would say it was appreciated. But there wasn't any "colonization".

    "I don’t see the advantage to investing in modern day Mayans and dis-investing in current Europeans."

    It's called investing in people. Corinthians 9:7--Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

    "Your favorite line..."

    One of my favorite lines, since it is accurate.

    "but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out"

    Not according to the WASPs. They lost significant power and influence. So, do you believe in magic dirt?

    "American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence"

    And WASPs sought to keep those things to themselves. So what resulted? WASPs not having nice things due to invaders.

    "and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option."

    From the WASPs perspective, it WOULD have been a better option. But those damn Italians, Poles, Jews, and Serbians got in the way. I suppose what is done is done...to the detriment of WASPs.

    , @syonredux

    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800′s.

    Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option.
     
    Indeed.


    And it's always useful to note the multitude of ways in which Eastern and Southern Europeans differ from, say, Mestizo/Amerind Latinx:

    Racially: European vs Amerind



    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1f/fc/fe/1ffcfecc89c1d74898fd116a939e2160.jpg


    http://www.cameralook.it/web/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Monica-Bellucci-2014.jpg

    https://www.factinate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/modern-day-maya.jpg


    Geographically: The USA has a land border with Latinx America, whereas Europe is across the Atlantic....


    Ideologically: Latinx, unlike Southern and Eastern Europeans, have an historic grudge against the USA and believe that they have a legitimate claim on our territory...


    etc, etc
    , @nebulafox
    >Agree, but effects are overstated. We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay. There’s much more to all this, but the blame game is in full swing.

    Japan is one of the ethnically homogeneous major nations on the planet. While there's a strong American cultural streak in Japan-the same can be said of South Korea-Japan has remained fully, indelibly Japanese, to the shock and horror of global elites.

    Immigration is-very, very slowly-increasing, it is true. But of the 5 largest immigrant groups in Japan, 3 are also Confucian cultures-Vietnam, Korea, and China-and another is ethnic Japanese from Brazil. Merkel's millions, this is not. Overall, the Japanese (and the Koreans) seem to understand that in an age where we are going to have less jobs due to automation, having a declining population isn't really a bad idea.

    It's ultimately a self-correcting problem to some extent: when people have more money and more time to form family units, they'll start having kids again.

    >Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option.

    Sometimes fresh blood is a good thing, sometimes even a necessary thing. But you don't just to infuse it from anywhere, in any quantity.

    Often missed is that a huge reason in why Catholic mass immigration worked out in the long run is that the corporate model of Catholicism didn't really take off beyond a local level in the US. As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased. The ecumenical peace that the US eventually became renowned for was the result of massive concessions on the part of the new immigrants and their religious hierarchy.

    (The same could be said of the Jews. In fact, you could say that it worked almost too well with them... they are more WASP than the actual WASPs now.)

    Why this happened is a mix of several factors, most of which aren't operative anymore, but the basic upshot is that American Catholics en masse assimilated to norms that would have been considered beyond the pale of even the most progressive Catholic intellectuals back in Europe through the first half of the 20th Century. American Catholicism has a heavy Protestant flavor as a result of over a century of increasing assimilation-American flags in churchs, etc.

    Razib Khan explains this all better than I ever can, I'd recommending reading what he says and recommends on the subject. I'll quote him:

    "The reason I am writing this is that the American landscape today is different in deep ways from that of the 19th and early 20th century. The lessons of Catholic and Jewish assimilation to a Protestant understanding of religion were achieved through bitter conflict, and the rejection of a corporatist accommodation between the American government and religious minorities, as was achieved in several European countries. The modern ideas of religious pluralism are fundamentally different from the explicit understanding of Protestant supremacy which ruled the day a century ago, and only slowly faded with assimilation of non-Protestants."

  238. @krustykurmudgeon
    didn't you post on rrhelections at one point? I was hbdrealist. I always knew you were hiding your power level. A lot of the guys on there like shamlet are completely delusional. Only VBKC seemed to know the score (I also suspect he knows more than he's letting on)

    Yes I was, and I got banned from there by (((Moshe))) for pointing out that Israel had managed to get its demographic doom reversed by incentivizing certain kind of births, de-incentivizing other kind of births. After Trump win I think I was high on their hit list to get banned.

    The mods there were picture perfect example of coastal/country club Republicans , something we actually need to run against in future explicitly.

  239. @bomag

    Did they not invade the world and invite the world? They should have picked their own damn cotton.
     
    Agree, but effects are overstated. We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay. There's much more to all this, but the blame game is in full swing.


    You would be surprised at the advancements of the Mayans...
     
    Good for the Mayans and bad for the Europeans, then; but I'm interested in what became of it and where we are today. I don't see the advantage to investing in modern day Mayans and dis-investing in current Europeans.


    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800′s.
     
    Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the "void" could well have been a better option.

    “Agree, but effects are overstated.”

    Not really.

    “We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay.”

    We influenced their policies. Some would say unduly, others would say it was appreciated. But there wasn’t any “colonization”.

    “I don’t see the advantage to investing in modern day Mayans and dis-investing in current Europeans.”

    It’s called investing in people. Corinthians 9:7–Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

    “Your favorite line…”

    One of my favorite lines, since it is accurate.

    “but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out”

    Not according to the WASPs. They lost significant power and influence. So, do you believe in magic dirt?

    “American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence”

    And WASPs sought to keep those things to themselves. So what resulted? WASPs not having nice things due to invaders.

    “and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option.”

    From the WASPs perspective, it WOULD have been a better option. But those damn Italians, Poles, Jews, and Serbians got in the way. I suppose what is done is done…to the detriment of WASPs.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Not according to the WASPs. They lost significant power and influence.
     
    On the other hand, America stayed Anglo-European in terms of culture......

    So, do you believe in magic dirt?
     
    Surely we're talking about magic race? You know, since Slavs, Italians, and Anglo-Saxons are all Europeans....

    “and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option.”

    From the WASPs perspective, it WOULD have been a better option. But those damn Italians, Poles, Jews, and Serbians got in the way. I suppose what is done is done…to the detriment of WASPs.
     
    Not as detrimental as it might have been. After all, those groups had a great deal in common....Something that can't be said where Muslims, Latinx, and Blacks are concerned....
    , @bomag

    there wasn’t any “colonization” [of Japan]
     
    Distinction without a difference.

    The Left likes to wave colonialism around like some universally evil totem, but they overstate the case. Countries develop independent of their colonial status; it is a path independent thing.


    It’s called investing in people... for God loves a cheerful giver.
     
    But not a stupid giver.

    Some people are better investments than others.

    Matthew 25: ‘You wicked and slothful servant!... I should have received what was my own with interest... And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness...

    And economic arguments shouldn't be categorical: if space aliens land who are ten times better than humans in every economic category, that doesn't mean we cede our countries to them.

    One of my favorite lines, since it is accurate.
     
    No, it is a cherry picking fallacy. You've found one case where mass immigration seemed to work, and you pimp that out.

    Just because Keith Richards survived and thrived in a life of drug use doesn't mean that is a good plan for everybody. One example doesn't make good policy.

    What other mass immigration in history has been a net positive? One? Two? Zero?

    Countries are supposed to defend themselves and their people, not give their future away to someone else.
  240. @syonredux
    https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/105/flashcards/5276105/png/xipe_totec-145AFA1762A0D1D542D.png

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/6e/fd/026efd4b3ea02feb46e888dcf8e24ea7.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Aztec_statue_of_Coatlicue,_the_earth_goddess.jpg


    https://napolirestaurantalert.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/david_marked.jpg

    https://amykeeley.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/apollo_belvedere_vatican_museums.jpg


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhf7dCoO9XI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MqrBauptrE

    Great artwork all the way around.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Great artwork all the way around.
     
    Revealing different souls, separate orders of being....


    Rudyard Kipling

    The Stranger

    The Stranger within my gate,
    He may be true or kind,
    But he does not talk my talk--
    I cannot feel his mind.
    I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,
    But not the soul behind.

    The men of my own stock,
    They may do ill or well,
    But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
    They are used to the lies I tell;
    And we do not need interpreters
    When we go to buy or sell.

    The Stranger within my gates,
    He may be evil or good,
    But I cannot tell what powers control--
    What reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
    Shall repossess his blood.

    The men of my own stock,
    Bitter bad they may be,
    But, at least, they hear the things I hear,
    And see the things I see;
    And whatever I think of them and their likes
    They think of the likes of me.

    This was my father's belief
    And this is also mine:
    Let the corn be all one sheaf--
    And the grapes be all one vine,
    Ere our children's teeth are set on edge
    By bitter bread and wine.

  241. @Corvinus
    "Corvinus, I’m curious how you regard yourself in relation to most of us here in the isteve-osphere."

    I come here for knowledge and discourse.

    "Do you have any sympathy with our immigration-related concerns but maybe think we take it too far"

    Believe it or not, and I have said this before here, I support immigration restrictions. The federal government should be cracking down on H1B visas, illegal immigration, and birthright citizenship. We have laws on the books to bust companies who employ illegal immigrants. The problem is that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans want to seriously tackle this issue.

    Do I support building the wall? No, I want more trained border patrol officers and enforcement of our current laws in place.

    Do I support banning certain immigrant groups from entering our nation? No, because I do not buy it that they are inherently evil, or less talented, or utterly incapable of assimilating.

    "– maybe think of yourself as providing a necessary corrective or reality check – or are your own views opposed enough to the mainstream here that you really don’t particularly care for us?"

    We all tend to gravitate toward confirmation bias. The key is to resist the urge, take an honest look inwardly, and seek multiple sources from different perspectives to arrive at "the truth", whatever that all entails.

    Do I support banning certain immigrant groups from entering our nation? No, because I do not buy it that they are inherently evil, or less talented, or utterly incapable of assimilating.

    Hasn’t happened with Blacks….Very little success with Latinx….No real reason to think that it will work with Muslims…..

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Hasn’t happened with Blacks….Very little success with Latinx….No real reason to think that it will work with Muslims….."

    Actually, Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims have assimilated into American society. Try again.
  242. @bomag

    Did they not invade the world and invite the world? They should have picked their own damn cotton.
     
    Agree, but effects are overstated. We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay. There's much more to all this, but the blame game is in full swing.


    You would be surprised at the advancements of the Mayans...
     
    Good for the Mayans and bad for the Europeans, then; but I'm interested in what became of it and where we are today. I don't see the advantage to investing in modern day Mayans and dis-investing in current Europeans.


    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800′s.
     
    Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the "void" could well have been a better option.

    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800′s.

    Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option.

    Indeed.

    And it’s always useful to note the multitude of ways in which Eastern and Southern Europeans differ from, say, Mestizo/Amerind Latinx:

    Racially: European vs Amerind

    Geographically: The USA has a land border with Latinx America, whereas Europe is across the Atlantic….

    Ideologically: Latinx, unlike Southern and Eastern Europeans, have an historic grudge against the USA and believe that they have a legitimate claim on our territory…

    etc, etc

    • Replies: @Clyde
    I want nothing to do with those Central American Indians but more importantly America should have nothing to do w them. Offload them to Spain. Another reason we need the serious Trump Wall plus an overhaul of our asylum laws or else Trump needs to trump the asylum laws somehow via an end run 'round them.
  243. @bomag

    Did they not invade the world and invite the world? They should have picked their own damn cotton.
     
    Agree, but effects are overstated. We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay. There's much more to all this, but the blame game is in full swing.


    You would be surprised at the advancements of the Mayans...
     
    Good for the Mayans and bad for the Europeans, then; but I'm interested in what became of it and where we are today. I don't see the advantage to investing in modern day Mayans and dis-investing in current Europeans.


    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800′s.
     
    Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the "void" could well have been a better option.

    >Agree, but effects are overstated. We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay. There’s much more to all this, but the blame game is in full swing.

    Japan is one of the ethnically homogeneous major nations on the planet. While there’s a strong American cultural streak in Japan-the same can be said of South Korea-Japan has remained fully, indelibly Japanese, to the shock and horror of global elites.

    Immigration is-very, very slowly-increasing, it is true. But of the 5 largest immigrant groups in Japan, 3 are also Confucian cultures-Vietnam, Korea, and China-and another is ethnic Japanese from Brazil. Merkel’s millions, this is not. Overall, the Japanese (and the Koreans) seem to understand that in an age where we are going to have less jobs due to automation, having a declining population isn’t really a bad idea.

    It’s ultimately a self-correcting problem to some extent: when people have more money and more time to form family units, they’ll start having kids again.

    >Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option.

    Sometimes fresh blood is a good thing, sometimes even a necessary thing. But you don’t just to infuse it from anywhere, in any quantity.

    Often missed is that a huge reason in why Catholic mass immigration worked out in the long run is that the corporate model of Catholicism didn’t really take off beyond a local level in the US. As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased. The ecumenical peace that the US eventually became renowned for was the result of massive concessions on the part of the new immigrants and their religious hierarchy.

    (The same could be said of the Jews. In fact, you could say that it worked almost too well with them… they are more WASP than the actual WASPs now.)

    Why this happened is a mix of several factors, most of which aren’t operative anymore, but the basic upshot is that American Catholics en masse assimilated to norms that would have been considered beyond the pale of even the most progressive Catholic intellectuals back in Europe through the first half of the 20th Century. American Catholicism has a heavy Protestant flavor as a result of over a century of increasing assimilation-American flags in churchs, etc.

    Razib Khan explains this all better than I ever can, I’d recommending reading what he says and recommends on the subject. I’ll quote him:

    “The reason I am writing this is that the American landscape today is different in deep ways from that of the 19th and early 20th century. The lessons of Catholic and Jewish assimilation to a Protestant understanding of religion were achieved through bitter conflict, and the rejection of a corporatist accommodation between the American government and religious minorities, as was achieved in several European countries. The modern ideas of religious pluralism are fundamentally different from the explicit understanding of Protestant supremacy which ruled the day a century ago, and only slowly faded with assimilation of non-Protestants.”

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Sometimes fresh blood is a good thing, sometimes even a necessary thing. But you don’t just to infuse it from anywhere, in any quantity."

    The WASPs did not want ANY "fresh blood", and they also did not want to be subjected to the vitiated blood of Southern and Eastern Europeans.

    "Often missed is that a huge reason in why Catholic mass immigration worked out in the long run..."

    What you are saying here supports magic dirt.

    "is that the corporate model of Catholicism didn’t really take off beyond a local level in the US."

    What do you mean "corporate model of Catholicism?" And what evidence do you have in that it didn't "take off beyond a local level"?

    "As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased."

    Sources?
  244. @Jack D
    He ain't no white dude. Whitish Talented Tenth but not white.

    https://www.spelman.edu/about-us/office-of-the-president/past-presidents/donald-stewart

    You can’t tell the players without a scorecard! But even a scorecard is useless these days.

  245. @syonredux

    Exactly what the WASPs said about Eastern and Southern Europeans in the late 1800′s.

    Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option.
     
    Indeed.


    And it's always useful to note the multitude of ways in which Eastern and Southern Europeans differ from, say, Mestizo/Amerind Latinx:

    Racially: European vs Amerind



    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1f/fc/fe/1ffcfecc89c1d74898fd116a939e2160.jpg


    http://www.cameralook.it/web/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Monica-Bellucci-2014.jpg

    https://www.factinate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/modern-day-maya.jpg


    Geographically: The USA has a land border with Latinx America, whereas Europe is across the Atlantic....


    Ideologically: Latinx, unlike Southern and Eastern Europeans, have an historic grudge against the USA and believe that they have a legitimate claim on our territory...


    etc, etc

    I want nothing to do with those Central American Indians but more importantly America should have nothing to do w them. Offload them to Spain. Another reason we need the serious Trump Wall plus an overhaul of our asylum laws or else Trump needs to trump the asylum laws somehow via an end run ’round them.

  246. @syonredux

    Do I support banning certain immigrant groups from entering our nation? No, because I do not buy it that they are inherently evil, or less talented, or utterly incapable of assimilating.
     
    Hasn't happened with Blacks....Very little success with Latinx....No real reason to think that it will work with Muslims.....

    “Hasn’t happened with Blacks….Very little success with Latinx….No real reason to think that it will work with Muslims…..”

    Actually, Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims have assimilated into American society. Try again.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    “Hasn’t happened with Blacks….Very little success with Latinx….No real reason to think that it will work with Muslims…..”

    Actually, Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims have assimilated into American society. Try again.
     

    If they had, we wouldn't have affirmative action....


    See, dear fellow, I use the German standard. Germans have been successfully absorbed. Hence, the fact that no one cared that a guy named Eisenhower became president in 1952....

    , @bomag

    Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims have assimilated into American society.
     
    By several measures we are more segregated now than any time in our history.

    Pressed one for English lately?

    Immigrants at one time aspired to be "American". Now immigrants slot into their ethnic enclaves and start clamoring for more Whites to be disappeared so they can have more.
  247. @nebulafox
    >Agree, but effects are overstated. We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay. There’s much more to all this, but the blame game is in full swing.

    Japan is one of the ethnically homogeneous major nations on the planet. While there's a strong American cultural streak in Japan-the same can be said of South Korea-Japan has remained fully, indelibly Japanese, to the shock and horror of global elites.

    Immigration is-very, very slowly-increasing, it is true. But of the 5 largest immigrant groups in Japan, 3 are also Confucian cultures-Vietnam, Korea, and China-and another is ethnic Japanese from Brazil. Merkel's millions, this is not. Overall, the Japanese (and the Koreans) seem to understand that in an age where we are going to have less jobs due to automation, having a declining population isn't really a bad idea.

    It's ultimately a self-correcting problem to some extent: when people have more money and more time to form family units, they'll start having kids again.

    >Your favorite line, but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out; American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence; and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option.

    Sometimes fresh blood is a good thing, sometimes even a necessary thing. But you don't just to infuse it from anywhere, in any quantity.

    Often missed is that a huge reason in why Catholic mass immigration worked out in the long run is that the corporate model of Catholicism didn't really take off beyond a local level in the US. As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased. The ecumenical peace that the US eventually became renowned for was the result of massive concessions on the part of the new immigrants and their religious hierarchy.

    (The same could be said of the Jews. In fact, you could say that it worked almost too well with them... they are more WASP than the actual WASPs now.)

    Why this happened is a mix of several factors, most of which aren't operative anymore, but the basic upshot is that American Catholics en masse assimilated to norms that would have been considered beyond the pale of even the most progressive Catholic intellectuals back in Europe through the first half of the 20th Century. American Catholicism has a heavy Protestant flavor as a result of over a century of increasing assimilation-American flags in churchs, etc.

    Razib Khan explains this all better than I ever can, I'd recommending reading what he says and recommends on the subject. I'll quote him:

    "The reason I am writing this is that the American landscape today is different in deep ways from that of the 19th and early 20th century. The lessons of Catholic and Jewish assimilation to a Protestant understanding of religion were achieved through bitter conflict, and the rejection of a corporatist accommodation between the American government and religious minorities, as was achieved in several European countries. The modern ideas of religious pluralism are fundamentally different from the explicit understanding of Protestant supremacy which ruled the day a century ago, and only slowly faded with assimilation of non-Protestants."

    “Sometimes fresh blood is a good thing, sometimes even a necessary thing. But you don’t just to infuse it from anywhere, in any quantity.”

    The WASPs did not want ANY “fresh blood”, and they also did not want to be subjected to the vitiated blood of Southern and Eastern Europeans.

    “Often missed is that a huge reason in why Catholic mass immigration worked out in the long run…”

    What you are saying here supports magic dirt.

    “is that the corporate model of Catholicism didn’t really take off beyond a local level in the US.”

    What do you mean “corporate model of Catholicism?” And what evidence do you have in that it didn’t “take off beyond a local level”?

    “As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased.”

    Sources?

    • Replies: @syonredux

    “As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased.”

    Sources?
     

    Dear boy, that assertion is quite uncontroversial. Both Catholicism and Judaism have been significantly affected by Anglo-Protestant norms....

    The WASPs did not want ANY “fresh blood”, and they also did not want to be subjected to the vitiated blood of Southern and Eastern Europeans.
     
    But it ended up working out alright....and very swiftly. I know some kids who are 25% English-Scots, 25% Ashkenazi, 25% Polish, and 25% Italian.... No one cares.They all fit under the European rubric.....Latinx and Blacks, in contrast, represent much more alien streams.....Anglo-Saxons, Slavs, and Italians have Europe in common...What do Mestizos and Blacks have in common with Europeans? Indeed, what do they have in common with one another? .....Well, Blacks and Latinx do have one thing in common with one another: Hating YT.....
    , @bomag

    The WASPs did not want ANY “fresh blood”, and they also did not want to be subjected to the vitiated blood of Southern and Eastern Europeans.
     
    Some WASPs did, some WASPs didn't. Some saw an immediate need for homesteaders and filling of slots in burgeoning industry, instead of waiting a generation. That it worked out in some positive fashion is a unique thing, and we certainly don't need such mass immigration in a day of no homesteading and declining industry. Anyone who says, "it worked out then, it will work out now" is pushing a fallacy.
  248. @Corvinus
    Great artwork all the way around.

    Great artwork all the way around.

    Revealing different souls, separate orders of being….

    Rudyard Kipling

    The Stranger

    The Stranger within my gate,
    He may be true or kind,
    But he does not talk my talk–
    I cannot feel his mind.
    I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,
    But not the soul behind.

    The men of my own stock,
    They may do ill or well,
    But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
    They are used to the lies I tell;
    And we do not need interpreters
    When we go to buy or sell.

    The Stranger within my gates,
    He may be evil or good,
    But I cannot tell what powers control–
    What reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
    Shall repossess his blood.

    The men of my own stock,
    Bitter bad they may be,
    But, at least, they hear the things I hear,
    And see the things I see;
    And whatever I think of them and their likes
    They think of the likes of me.

    This was my father’s belief
    And this is also mine:
    Let the corn be all one sheaf–
    And the grapes be all one vine,
    Ere our children’s teeth are set on edge
    By bitter bread and wine.

  249. @Corvinus
    "Sometimes fresh blood is a good thing, sometimes even a necessary thing. But you don’t just to infuse it from anywhere, in any quantity."

    The WASPs did not want ANY "fresh blood", and they also did not want to be subjected to the vitiated blood of Southern and Eastern Europeans.

    "Often missed is that a huge reason in why Catholic mass immigration worked out in the long run..."

    What you are saying here supports magic dirt.

    "is that the corporate model of Catholicism didn’t really take off beyond a local level in the US."

    What do you mean "corporate model of Catholicism?" And what evidence do you have in that it didn't "take off beyond a local level"?

    "As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased."

    Sources?

    “As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased.”

    Sources?

    Dear boy, that assertion is quite uncontroversial. Both Catholicism and Judaism have been significantly affected by Anglo-Protestant norms….

    The WASPs did not want ANY “fresh blood”, and they also did not want to be subjected to the vitiated blood of Southern and Eastern Europeans.

    But it ended up working out alright….and very swiftly. I know some kids who are 25% English-Scots, 25% Ashkenazi, 25% Polish, and 25% Italian…. No one cares.They all fit under the European rubric…..Latinx and Blacks, in contrast, represent much more alien streams…..Anglo-Saxons, Slavs, and Italians have Europe in common…What do Mestizos and Blacks have in common with Europeans? Indeed, what do they have in common with one another? …..Well, Blacks and Latinx do have one thing in common with one another: Hating YT…..

  250. @Corvinus
    "Hasn’t happened with Blacks….Very little success with Latinx….No real reason to think that it will work with Muslims….."

    Actually, Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims have assimilated into American society. Try again.

    “Hasn’t happened with Blacks….Very little success with Latinx….No real reason to think that it will work with Muslims…..”

    Actually, Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims have assimilated into American society. Try again.

    If they had, we wouldn’t have affirmative action….

    See, dear fellow, I use the German standard. Germans have been successfully absorbed. Hence, the fact that no one cared that a guy named Eisenhower became president in 1952….

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "If they had, we wouldn’t have affirmative action…."

    That is more of a legal aspect than cultural aspect.

    "See, dear fellow, I use the German standard. Germans have been successfully absorbed."

    Over a long period of time.

    "On the other hand, America stayed Anglo-European in terms of culture……"

    No, America developed a unique culture based on European, African, Native American, and Asian influences.

    "You know, since Slavs, Italians, and Anglo-Saxons are all Europeans…."

    Different ethnic groups that historically were not on the same level.

    "Not as detrimental as it might have been. After all, those groups had a great deal in common"

    Being from Europe. But they had different languages, customs, and lifestyles. Remember, WASPs worked diligently to ensure that Southern and Eastern Europeans would be significantly limited on the American scene.

    "Both Catholicism and Judaism have been significantly affected by Anglo-Protestant norms…."

    I am disputing this particular point (highlighted in bold)--“As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased.”
    Sources are needed here.

    "Revealing different souls, separate orders of being"

    Yet, great artwork all the way around. And, indeed, “The Stranger” would speak to the difficulty of British descendants who reside in America and live among "foreigners", including Eastern and Southern Europeans. So much for "unity".

    "I know some kids who are 25% English-Scots, 25% Ashkenazi, 25% Polish, and 25% Italian…. No one cares."

    LOL, of course people care! The Italians and Poles who first came here were insistent that their children marry within their ethnicity. Some children complied, others did not. Furthermore, there are still people out there who believe that there should not be the mixing of an English-Scot and a Hutu.
  251. @Corvinus
    "Agree, but effects are overstated."

    Not really.

    "We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay."

    We influenced their policies. Some would say unduly, others would say it was appreciated. But there wasn't any "colonization".

    "I don’t see the advantage to investing in modern day Mayans and dis-investing in current Europeans."

    It's called investing in people. Corinthians 9:7--Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

    "Your favorite line..."

    One of my favorite lines, since it is accurate.

    "but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out"

    Not according to the WASPs. They lost significant power and influence. So, do you believe in magic dirt?

    "American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence"

    And WASPs sought to keep those things to themselves. So what resulted? WASPs not having nice things due to invaders.

    "and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option."

    From the WASPs perspective, it WOULD have been a better option. But those damn Italians, Poles, Jews, and Serbians got in the way. I suppose what is done is done...to the detriment of WASPs.

    Not according to the WASPs. They lost significant power and influence.

    On the other hand, America stayed Anglo-European in terms of culture……

    So, do you believe in magic dirt?

    Surely we’re talking about magic race? You know, since Slavs, Italians, and Anglo-Saxons are all Europeans….

    “and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option.”

    From the WASPs perspective, it WOULD have been a better option. But those damn Italians, Poles, Jews, and Serbians got in the way. I suppose what is done is done…to the detriment of WASPs.

    Not as detrimental as it might have been. After all, those groups had a great deal in common….Something that can’t be said where Muslims, Latinx, and Blacks are concerned….

  252. @Corvinus
    "Sometimes fresh blood is a good thing, sometimes even a necessary thing. But you don’t just to infuse it from anywhere, in any quantity."

    The WASPs did not want ANY "fresh blood", and they also did not want to be subjected to the vitiated blood of Southern and Eastern Europeans.

    "Often missed is that a huge reason in why Catholic mass immigration worked out in the long run..."

    What you are saying here supports magic dirt.

    "is that the corporate model of Catholicism didn’t really take off beyond a local level in the US."

    What do you mean "corporate model of Catholicism?" And what evidence do you have in that it didn't "take off beyond a local level"?

    "As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased."

    Sources?

    The WASPs did not want ANY “fresh blood”, and they also did not want to be subjected to the vitiated blood of Southern and Eastern Europeans.

    Some WASPs did, some WASPs didn’t. Some saw an immediate need for homesteaders and filling of slots in burgeoning industry, instead of waiting a generation. That it worked out in some positive fashion is a unique thing, and we certainly don’t need such mass immigration in a day of no homesteading and declining industry. Anyone who says, “it worked out then, it will work out now” is pushing a fallacy.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Some WASPs did, some WASPs didn’t."

    So then the WASPs who did believe in "magic dirt". Do you?

    Some saw an immediate need for homesteaders and filling of slots in burgeoning industry, instead of waiting a generation. That it worked out in some positive fashion is a unique thing, and we certainly don’t need such mass immigration in a day of no homesteading and declining industry.

    "Anyone who says, “it worked out then, it will work out now” is pushing a fallacy."

    Exactly what the WASPs said to anyone who thought that filling the "immediate need for homesteaders and filling the slots in burgeoning industry" with non-WASPs in the late 1800's said! Do you realize the dilemma you face?

    "Distinction without a difference."

    Certainly we culturally influenced it, but we did not "colonize" Japan.

    "Countries develop independent of their colonial status; it is a path independent thing."

    No. Current issues for past European colonies are a direct result of European invasion and intervention.

    "if space aliens land who are ten times better than humans in every economic category, that doesn’t mean we cede our countries to them."

    Why not? According to HbD, these aliens clearly possess more intelligence than us, and have the liberty to take over. We won't "cede" anything to them, because we will fight them tooth and nail. But, in the end, we will succumb. Isn't that how it always has been?

    "You’ve found one case where mass immigration seemed to work, and you pimp that out."

    There are MANY cases where mass immigration "seemed to work". And you have been supporting it yourself! (the case with Southern and Eastern Europeans).

    "Countries are supposed to defend themselves and their people, not give their future away to someone else."

    Again, who is "our people" in America? Be specific, please.

    "By several measures we are more segregated now than any time in our history."

    Perhaps. Then again, maybe not.

    "Immigrants at one time aspired to be “American”."

    They still do.

    "Now immigrants slot into their ethnic enclaves and start clamoring for more Whites to be disappeared so they can have more."

    Now Southern and Eastern Europeans slot into their ethnic enclaves and start clamoring for more WASPs to be disappeared so they can have more. That was the argument in the late 1800's.

    Today, indeed there are new immigrants who live in certain areas, and perhaps a few want to "permanently" remove whites. But there sentiment is no different than past immigrants.
  253. @Corvinus
    "Agree, but effects are overstated."

    Not really.

    "We heavily colonized Japan after WWII, and they turned out okay."

    We influenced their policies. Some would say unduly, others would say it was appreciated. But there wasn't any "colonization".

    "I don’t see the advantage to investing in modern day Mayans and dis-investing in current Europeans."

    It's called investing in people. Corinthians 9:7--Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

    "Your favorite line..."

    One of my favorite lines, since it is accurate.

    "but it is one of the few instances of mass immigration that has seemed to work out"

    Not according to the WASPs. They lost significant power and influence. So, do you believe in magic dirt?

    "American space coupled with industrial advancement is a rather rare occurrence"

    And WASPs sought to keep those things to themselves. So what resulted? WASPs not having nice things due to invaders.

    "and the alternative of WASPs filling the “void” could well have been a better option."

    From the WASPs perspective, it WOULD have been a better option. But those damn Italians, Poles, Jews, and Serbians got in the way. I suppose what is done is done...to the detriment of WASPs.

    there wasn’t any “colonization” [of Japan]

    Distinction without a difference.

    The Left likes to wave colonialism around like some universally evil totem, but they overstate the case. Countries develop independent of their colonial status; it is a path independent thing.

    It’s called investing in people… for God loves a cheerful giver.

    But not a stupid giver.

    Some people are better investments than others.

    Matthew 25: ‘You wicked and slothful servant!… I should have received what was my own with interest… And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness…

    And economic arguments shouldn’t be categorical: if space aliens land who are ten times better than humans in every economic category, that doesn’t mean we cede our countries to them.

    One of my favorite lines, since it is accurate.

    No, it is a cherry picking fallacy. You’ve found one case where mass immigration seemed to work, and you pimp that out.

    Just because Keith Richards survived and thrived in a life of drug use doesn’t mean that is a good plan for everybody. One example doesn’t make good policy.

    What other mass immigration in history has been a net positive? One? Two? Zero?

    Countries are supposed to defend themselves and their people, not give their future away to someone else.

  254. @Corvinus
    "Hasn’t happened with Blacks….Very little success with Latinx….No real reason to think that it will work with Muslims….."

    Actually, Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims have assimilated into American society. Try again.

    Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims have assimilated into American society.

    By several measures we are more segregated now than any time in our history.

    Pressed one for English lately?

    Immigrants at one time aspired to be “American”. Now immigrants slot into their ethnic enclaves and start clamoring for more Whites to be disappeared so they can have more.

  255. @syonredux

    “Hasn’t happened with Blacks….Very little success with Latinx….No real reason to think that it will work with Muslims…..”

    Actually, Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims have assimilated into American society. Try again.
     

    If they had, we wouldn't have affirmative action....


    See, dear fellow, I use the German standard. Germans have been successfully absorbed. Hence, the fact that no one cared that a guy named Eisenhower became president in 1952....

    “If they had, we wouldn’t have affirmative action….”

    That is more of a legal aspect than cultural aspect.

    “See, dear fellow, I use the German standard. Germans have been successfully absorbed.”

    Over a long period of time.

    “On the other hand, America stayed Anglo-European in terms of culture……”

    No, America developed a unique culture based on European, African, Native American, and Asian influences.

    “You know, since Slavs, Italians, and Anglo-Saxons are all Europeans….”

    Different ethnic groups that historically were not on the same level.

    “Not as detrimental as it might have been. After all, those groups had a great deal in common”

    Being from Europe. But they had different languages, customs, and lifestyles. Remember, WASPs worked diligently to ensure that Southern and Eastern Europeans would be significantly limited on the American scene.

    “Both Catholicism and Judaism have been significantly affected by Anglo-Protestant norms….”

    I am disputing this particular point (highlighted in bold)–“As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased.”
    Sources are needed here.

    “Revealing different souls, separate orders of being”

    Yet, great artwork all the way around. And, indeed, “The Stranger” would speak to the difficulty of British descendants who reside in America and live among “foreigners”, including Eastern and Southern Europeans. So much for “unity”.

    “I know some kids who are 25% English-Scots, 25% Ashkenazi, 25% Polish, and 25% Italian…. No one cares.”

    LOL, of course people care! The Italians and Poles who first came here were insistent that their children marry within their ethnicity. Some children complied, others did not. Furthermore, there are still people out there who believe that there should not be the mixing of an English-Scot and a Hutu.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    “If they had, we wouldn’t have affirmative action….”

    That is more of a legal aspect than cultural aspect.
     

    Law follows culture....And Blacks and Latinx are culturally alien...

    “See, dear fellow, I use the German standard. Germans have been successfully absorbed.”

    Over a long period of time.
     

    Blacks have been in Anglo-America in significant numbers since the 17th century....As for Latinx.....

    In many domains, however, the Mexican American story doesn't fit with traditional models of assimilation. The majority of fourth generation Mexican Americans continue to live in Hispanic neighborhoods, marry other Hispanics, and think of themselves as Mexican. And while Mexican Americans make financial strides from the first to the second generation, economic progress halts at the second generation, and poverty rates remain high for later generations. Similarly, educational attainment peaks among second generation children of immigrants, but declines for the third and fourth generations.
     
    https://www.amazon.com/Generations-Exclusion-Mexican-Americans-Assimilation-Race/dp/0871548496


    The signs are not good....


    “On the other hand, America stayed Anglo-European in terms of culture……”

    No, America developed a unique culture based on European, African, Native American, and Asian influences.
     

    Asian influences are practically non-existent; Amerind influences are pretty much limited to various forms of food (cornbread, anyone?);African influences are mostly in the realm of popular music; and cultural forms from the British Isles far outweigh contributions from the Continent. Travel enlarges the mind, dear fellow. Go to Italy or France, and you will quickly see that the USA has far more in common with Anglospheric nations (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) that it does with anywhere else....

    You know, since Slavs, Italians, and Anglo-Saxons are all Europeans….”

    Different ethnic groups that historically were not on the same level.
     

    But who all had far more in common with one another than they do with Blacks, Muslims, and Latinx Mestizos and Amerinds...

    “Not as detrimental as it might have been. After all, those groups had a great deal in common”

    Being from Europe. But they had different languages, customs, and lifestyles.
     

    See above. Anglo-Saxons had much more in common with Poles and Italians than they do with Blacks and Latinx Mestizos..

    Remember, WASPs worked diligently to ensure that Southern and Eastern Europeans would be significantly limited on the American scene.
     
    Which is another way in which the present is not a replay of the past, as our current elites are trying to flood the nation with non-Europeans....

    “Both Catholicism and Judaism have been significantly affected by Anglo-Protestant norms….”

    I am disputing this particular point (highlighted in bold)–“As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased.”
    Sources are needed here.
     

    That "the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased?" You do live in the USA, right?

    Revealing different souls, separate orders of being”

    Yet, great artwork all the way around. And, indeed, “The Stranger” would speak to the difficulty of British descendants who reside in America and live among “foreigners”, including Eastern and Southern Europeans. So much for “unity”.
     

    Actually, no. Kipling was writing in a specific context. He was worried about East Asian immigration into Canada:

    Immigration is what you want in the West. You must have labourers there. You want immigration, and the way to keep the yellow man out is to get the white man in
     
    Some aliens are more alien than others.....

    “I know some kids who are 25% English-Scots, 25% Ashkenazi, 25% Polish, and 25% Italian…. No one cares.”

    LOL, of course people care!
     

    Can't get affirmative action with that kind of mix, dear fellow. According to our SJW masters, they're hideously White....
  256. @bomag

    The WASPs did not want ANY “fresh blood”, and they also did not want to be subjected to the vitiated blood of Southern and Eastern Europeans.
     
    Some WASPs did, some WASPs didn't. Some saw an immediate need for homesteaders and filling of slots in burgeoning industry, instead of waiting a generation. That it worked out in some positive fashion is a unique thing, and we certainly don't need such mass immigration in a day of no homesteading and declining industry. Anyone who says, "it worked out then, it will work out now" is pushing a fallacy.

    “Some WASPs did, some WASPs didn’t.”

    So then the WASPs who did believe in “magic dirt”. Do you?

    Some saw an immediate need for homesteaders and filling of slots in burgeoning industry, instead of waiting a generation. That it worked out in some positive fashion is a unique thing, and we certainly don’t need such mass immigration in a day of no homesteading and declining industry.

    “Anyone who says, “it worked out then, it will work out now” is pushing a fallacy.”

    Exactly what the WASPs said to anyone who thought that filling the “immediate need for homesteaders and filling the slots in burgeoning industry” with non-WASPs in the late 1800’s said! Do you realize the dilemma you face?

    “Distinction without a difference.”

    Certainly we culturally influenced it, but we did not “colonize” Japan.

    “Countries develop independent of their colonial status; it is a path independent thing.”

    No. Current issues for past European colonies are a direct result of European invasion and intervention.

    “if space aliens land who are ten times better than humans in every economic category, that doesn’t mean we cede our countries to them.”

    Why not? According to HbD, these aliens clearly possess more intelligence than us, and have the liberty to take over. We won’t “cede” anything to them, because we will fight them tooth and nail. But, in the end, we will succumb. Isn’t that how it always has been?

    “You’ve found one case where mass immigration seemed to work, and you pimp that out.”

    There are MANY cases where mass immigration “seemed to work”. And you have been supporting it yourself! (the case with Southern and Eastern Europeans).

    “Countries are supposed to defend themselves and their people, not give their future away to someone else.”

    Again, who is “our people” in America? Be specific, please.

    “By several measures we are more segregated now than any time in our history.”

    Perhaps. Then again, maybe not.

    “Immigrants at one time aspired to be “American”.”

    They still do.

    “Now immigrants slot into their ethnic enclaves and start clamoring for more Whites to be disappeared so they can have more.”

    Now Southern and Eastern Europeans slot into their ethnic enclaves and start clamoring for more WASPs to be disappeared so they can have more. That was the argument in the late 1800’s.

    Today, indeed there are new immigrants who live in certain areas, and perhaps a few want to “permanently” remove whites. But there sentiment is no different than past immigrants.

    • Replies: @bomag
    This is just more of your autistic ramblings.

    Today, indeed there are new immigrants who live in certain areas, and perhaps a few want to “permanently” remove whites. But there sentiment is no different than past immigrants.
     

    That's a pretty good argument against immigration. Thanks for making it.

    There are MANY cases where mass immigration “seemed to work”. And you have been supporting it yourself!
     

    You don't understand percentages. Most of history is akin to the Algerians kicking out the French rather than nice white Scandinavian ladies in the US running bake sales to support the local illegals.

    aliens... have the liberty to take over. We won’t “cede” anything to them, because we will fight them tooth and nail. But, in the end, we will succumb. Isn’t that how it always has been?
     
    People in defense can hold out against those several times more powerful. The point here was that we should not invite them in and give them our stuff in the name of martyring ourselves in service to the GDP, which is the current orthodoxy. And we're currently giving our stuff away to those who destroy value; we can't even get this much right.

    Current issues for past European colonies are a direct result of European invasion and intervention.
     
    Amusing that a few wooden ships landing on a shore; running a few parades; setting up trade and transferring technology; has now become a never ending source of excuses for non-performance. And in service to this narrative, Europeans who have no connection to colonialism are targeted. Meanwhile, countries shattered by war and natural disasters manage to overcome and rebuild. This is sort of a backhanded compliment to Europeans: "you are so powerful that we can't overcome your bad colonial ju-ju from back in 1620. We must have reparations and access to your women, which won't change anything and will never end, but we have Corvinus brainwashed and his FEELZ! must be honored, so hand over your stuff."

    WASPs who did believe in “magic dirt”... Exactly what the WASPs said to... Do you realize the dilemma you face?
     
    Is your brain really that small?

    It is a universal thing that one grows organically. India went from 200 million people in 1950 to 1.2 billion today. Sitting in 1950, should India have added that 1 billion people from encouraging their own, or importing the Other since it worked out so well for America circa 1880? Do you have your own kids, or do you adopt because that worked out so well for your neighbor?

    Immigration is one of those large # of variable problems with many consequences, akin to war. Is there such a thing as a good war? Our success in the "good war" of WWII led to overreach as the world's policeman. You justify our current mass immigration by pointing to a rosy interpretation of past immigration. Not that you are a stupid person, but this is a stupid way of thinking.

  257. @Corvinus
    "If they had, we wouldn’t have affirmative action…."

    That is more of a legal aspect than cultural aspect.

    "See, dear fellow, I use the German standard. Germans have been successfully absorbed."

    Over a long period of time.

    "On the other hand, America stayed Anglo-European in terms of culture……"

    No, America developed a unique culture based on European, African, Native American, and Asian influences.

    "You know, since Slavs, Italians, and Anglo-Saxons are all Europeans…."

    Different ethnic groups that historically were not on the same level.

    "Not as detrimental as it might have been. After all, those groups had a great deal in common"

    Being from Europe. But they had different languages, customs, and lifestyles. Remember, WASPs worked diligently to ensure that Southern and Eastern Europeans would be significantly limited on the American scene.

    "Both Catholicism and Judaism have been significantly affected by Anglo-Protestant norms…."

    I am disputing this particular point (highlighted in bold)--“As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased.”
    Sources are needed here.

    "Revealing different souls, separate orders of being"

    Yet, great artwork all the way around. And, indeed, “The Stranger” would speak to the difficulty of British descendants who reside in America and live among "foreigners", including Eastern and Southern Europeans. So much for "unity".

    "I know some kids who are 25% English-Scots, 25% Ashkenazi, 25% Polish, and 25% Italian…. No one cares."

    LOL, of course people care! The Italians and Poles who first came here were insistent that their children marry within their ethnicity. Some children complied, others did not. Furthermore, there are still people out there who believe that there should not be the mixing of an English-Scot and a Hutu.

    “If they had, we wouldn’t have affirmative action….”

    That is more of a legal aspect than cultural aspect.

    Law follows culture….And Blacks and Latinx are culturally alien…

    “See, dear fellow, I use the German standard. Germans have been successfully absorbed.”

    Over a long period of time.

    Blacks have been in Anglo-America in significant numbers since the 17th century….As for Latinx…..

    In many domains, however, the Mexican American story doesn’t fit with traditional models of assimilation. The majority of fourth generation Mexican Americans continue to live in Hispanic neighborhoods, marry other Hispanics, and think of themselves as Mexican. And while Mexican Americans make financial strides from the first to the second generation, economic progress halts at the second generation, and poverty rates remain high for later generations. Similarly, educational attainment peaks among second generation children of immigrants, but declines for the third and fourth generations.

    The signs are not good….

    “On the other hand, America stayed Anglo-European in terms of culture……”

    No, America developed a unique culture based on European, African, Native American, and Asian influences.

    Asian influences are practically non-existent; Amerind influences are pretty much limited to various forms of food (cornbread, anyone?);African influences are mostly in the realm of popular music; and cultural forms from the British Isles far outweigh contributions from the Continent. Travel enlarges the mind, dear fellow. Go to Italy or France, and you will quickly see that the USA has far more in common with Anglospheric nations (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) that it does with anywhere else….

    You know, since Slavs, Italians, and Anglo-Saxons are all Europeans….”

    Different ethnic groups that historically were not on the same level.

    But who all had far more in common with one another than they do with Blacks, Muslims, and Latinx Mestizos and Amerinds…

    “Not as detrimental as it might have been. After all, those groups had a great deal in common”

    Being from Europe. But they had different languages, customs, and lifestyles.

    See above. Anglo-Saxons had much more in common with Poles and Italians than they do with Blacks and Latinx Mestizos..

    Remember, WASPs worked diligently to ensure that Southern and Eastern Europeans would be significantly limited on the American scene.

    Which is another way in which the present is not a replay of the past, as our current elites are trying to flood the nation with non-Europeans….

    “Both Catholicism and Judaism have been significantly affected by Anglo-Protestant norms….”

    I am disputing this particular point (highlighted in bold)–“As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased.”
    Sources are needed here.

    That “the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased?” You do live in the USA, right?

    Revealing different souls, separate orders of being”

    Yet, great artwork all the way around. And, indeed, “The Stranger” would speak to the difficulty of British descendants who reside in America and live among “foreigners”, including Eastern and Southern Europeans. So much for “unity”.

    Actually, no. Kipling was writing in a specific context. He was worried about East Asian immigration into Canada:

    Immigration is what you want in the West. You must have labourers there. You want immigration, and the way to keep the yellow man out is to get the white man in

    Some aliens are more alien than others…..

    “I know some kids who are 25% English-Scots, 25% Ashkenazi, 25% Polish, and 25% Italian…. No one cares.”

    LOL, of course people care!

    Can’t get affirmative action with that kind of mix, dear fellow. According to our SJW masters, they’re hideously White….

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Law follows culture….And Blacks and Latinx are culturally alien…"

    Law and culture are interrelated. Blacks and Latinos are other than culturally alien. If you are going to be consistent here, then you will have to recognize the same argument made by nativists (WASPs) toward non-WASPs.

    "Anglo-Saxons had much more in common with Poles and Italians than they do with Blacks and Latinx Mestizos.."

    Being European and Christian. But the differences between Angl0-Saxons and non-Anglo-Saxons were noticeably striking. Exactly why nativists did not want Southern and Eastern Europeans around.

    Source --> https://www.dartmouth.edu/~hist32/History/White.htm

    "Between 1880 and WWI, the United States experienced large waves of European immigration. These "new immigrants" however did not come from northern Europe and represented a frightening diversity to many. The difference perceived in these immigrants was frequently described as a racial difference in which Europeans were represented as, not one, but many races identified by region (Alpine, Mediterranean, Slavic and Nordic) or by alleged headshape (roundheads, slopeheads). Madison Grant, a biologist and curator for the American Museum of Natural History in New York explained in his book The Passing of the Great Race that White Americans, the great race, were losing out to hordes of inferior European immigrants. Grant's book was so popular it experienced 7 reprints before WWII. According to Grant, "These new immigrants were no longer exclusively members of the Nordic race as were the earlier ones...The transportation lines advertised America as a land flowing with milk and honey and the European governments took the opportunity to unload upon careless, wealthy and hospitable America the sweepings of their jails and asylums...Our jails, insane asylums and almshouses are filled with this human flotsam and the whole tone of american life, social, moral and political has been lowered and vulgarized by them."

    So much for white unity!

    "Some aliens are more alien than others…"

    That is SJW-inspired double talk! The nativists felt that certain groups were alien, not "sort of" or "kind of". Refer to the above quotation.

    "Actually, no. Kipling was writing in a specific context."

    I am aware of the context. Yet, his work can be used as a justification by American nativists who opposed an "invasion of foreigners", in this case Italians, Poles, and Slavs. That is why you cited it in relation to the "hordes of" Africans, Middle Easterners, and Asians who have entered our shores.

    "Asian influences are practically non-existent; Amerind influences are pretty much limited to various forms of food (cornbread, anyone?);African influences are mostly in the realm of popular music"

    No. Asian, Native American, and African contributions to the American culture are much more deeper than what you stated. I do not expect you to admit this fact.

  258. @Corvinus
    "Some WASPs did, some WASPs didn’t."

    So then the WASPs who did believe in "magic dirt". Do you?

    Some saw an immediate need for homesteaders and filling of slots in burgeoning industry, instead of waiting a generation. That it worked out in some positive fashion is a unique thing, and we certainly don’t need such mass immigration in a day of no homesteading and declining industry.

    "Anyone who says, “it worked out then, it will work out now” is pushing a fallacy."

    Exactly what the WASPs said to anyone who thought that filling the "immediate need for homesteaders and filling the slots in burgeoning industry" with non-WASPs in the late 1800's said! Do you realize the dilemma you face?

    "Distinction without a difference."

    Certainly we culturally influenced it, but we did not "colonize" Japan.

    "Countries develop independent of their colonial status; it is a path independent thing."

    No. Current issues for past European colonies are a direct result of European invasion and intervention.

    "if space aliens land who are ten times better than humans in every economic category, that doesn’t mean we cede our countries to them."

    Why not? According to HbD, these aliens clearly possess more intelligence than us, and have the liberty to take over. We won't "cede" anything to them, because we will fight them tooth and nail. But, in the end, we will succumb. Isn't that how it always has been?

    "You’ve found one case where mass immigration seemed to work, and you pimp that out."

    There are MANY cases where mass immigration "seemed to work". And you have been supporting it yourself! (the case with Southern and Eastern Europeans).

    "Countries are supposed to defend themselves and their people, not give their future away to someone else."

    Again, who is "our people" in America? Be specific, please.

    "By several measures we are more segregated now than any time in our history."

    Perhaps. Then again, maybe not.

    "Immigrants at one time aspired to be “American”."

    They still do.

    "Now immigrants slot into their ethnic enclaves and start clamoring for more Whites to be disappeared so they can have more."

    Now Southern and Eastern Europeans slot into their ethnic enclaves and start clamoring for more WASPs to be disappeared so they can have more. That was the argument in the late 1800's.

    Today, indeed there are new immigrants who live in certain areas, and perhaps a few want to "permanently" remove whites. But there sentiment is no different than past immigrants.

    This is just more of your autistic ramblings.

    Today, indeed there are new immigrants who live in certain areas, and perhaps a few want to “permanently” remove whites. But there sentiment is no different than past immigrants.

    That’s a pretty good argument against immigration. Thanks for making it.

    There are MANY cases where mass immigration “seemed to work”. And you have been supporting it yourself!

    You don’t understand percentages. Most of history is akin to the Algerians kicking out the French rather than nice white Scandinavian ladies in the US running bake sales to support the local illegals.

    aliens… have the liberty to take over. We won’t “cede” anything to them, because we will fight them tooth and nail. But, in the end, we will succumb. Isn’t that how it always has been?

    People in defense can hold out against those several times more powerful. The point here was that we should not invite them in and give them our stuff in the name of martyring ourselves in service to the GDP, which is the current orthodoxy. And we’re currently giving our stuff away to those who destroy value; we can’t even get this much right.

    Current issues for past European colonies are a direct result of European invasion and intervention.

    Amusing that a few wooden ships landing on a shore; running a few parades; setting up trade and transferring technology; has now become a never ending source of excuses for non-performance. And in service to this narrative, Europeans who have no connection to colonialism are targeted. Meanwhile, countries shattered by war and natural disasters manage to overcome and rebuild. This is sort of a backhanded compliment to Europeans: “you are so powerful that we can’t overcome your bad colonial ju-ju from back in 1620. We must have reparations and access to your women, which won’t change anything and will never end, but we have Corvinus brainwashed and his FEELZ! must be honored, so hand over your stuff.”

    WASPs who did believe in “magic dirt”… Exactly what the WASPs said to… Do you realize the dilemma you face?

    Is your brain really that small?

    It is a universal thing that one grows organically. India went from 200 million people in 1950 to 1.2 billion today. Sitting in 1950, should India have added that 1 billion people from encouraging their own, or importing the Other since it worked out so well for America circa 1880? Do you have your own kids, or do you adopt because that worked out so well for your neighbor?

    Immigration is one of those large # of variable problems with many consequences, akin to war. Is there such a thing as a good war? Our success in the “good war” of WWII led to overreach as the world’s policeman. You justify our current mass immigration by pointing to a rosy interpretation of past immigration. Not that you are a stupid person, but this is a stupid way of thinking.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "This is just more of your autistic ramblings."

    You mean you are at a loss for words due to my lucid arguments.

    "That’s a pretty good argument against immigration. Thanks for making it."

    Except that would mean millions of Southern and Eastern Europeans--whites!--would have to go back. Would you agree or disagree? Why? Because it seems to me that you are advocating "magic dirt". Interesting how you are steering clear of making it clear as to your position on that concept.

    "Most of history is akin to the Algerians kicking out the French..."

    Colonization and immigration are on separate historical planes, friend.

    "The point here was that we should not invite them in and give them our stuff in the name of martyring ourselves in service to the GDP, which is the current orthodoxy."

    Past AND present. And it's not really "giving them our stuff". Companies seek to make profits. Now, I do agree that we ought to limit the number of people entering our nation, but who will cut our grass, cook our food, make our hotel beds, and pick our fruits/vegetables?

    "Amusing that a few wooden ships landing on a shore; running a few parades; setting up trade and transferring technology; has now become a never ending source of excuses for non-performance."

    You are woefully underselling the impact of colonization and imperialism. Bravo, sir.

    "This is sort of a backhanded compliment to Europeans: “you are so powerful that we can’t overcome your bad colonial ju-ju from back in 1620."

    Colonization and imperialism lasted until WW2. You realize that you come across as being historically illiterate, right?

    "Immigration is one of those large # of variable problems with many consequences, akin to war."

    Positive and negative consequences.

    "Is there such a thing as a good war?"

    Depends on who is the victor.

    "You justify our current mass immigration by pointing to a rosy interpretation of past immigration."

    Wasn't past immigration "rosy"? I mean, we allowed white Europeans to come here. Now are you saying it was other than "rosy"? Are you coming or going, I cannot tell.
  259. @syonredux

    “If they had, we wouldn’t have affirmative action….”

    That is more of a legal aspect than cultural aspect.
     

    Law follows culture....And Blacks and Latinx are culturally alien...

    “See, dear fellow, I use the German standard. Germans have been successfully absorbed.”

    Over a long period of time.
     

    Blacks have been in Anglo-America in significant numbers since the 17th century....As for Latinx.....

    In many domains, however, the Mexican American story doesn't fit with traditional models of assimilation. The majority of fourth generation Mexican Americans continue to live in Hispanic neighborhoods, marry other Hispanics, and think of themselves as Mexican. And while Mexican Americans make financial strides from the first to the second generation, economic progress halts at the second generation, and poverty rates remain high for later generations. Similarly, educational attainment peaks among second generation children of immigrants, but declines for the third and fourth generations.
     
    https://www.amazon.com/Generations-Exclusion-Mexican-Americans-Assimilation-Race/dp/0871548496


    The signs are not good....


    “On the other hand, America stayed Anglo-European in terms of culture……”

    No, America developed a unique culture based on European, African, Native American, and Asian influences.
     

    Asian influences are practically non-existent; Amerind influences are pretty much limited to various forms of food (cornbread, anyone?);African influences are mostly in the realm of popular music; and cultural forms from the British Isles far outweigh contributions from the Continent. Travel enlarges the mind, dear fellow. Go to Italy or France, and you will quickly see that the USA has far more in common with Anglospheric nations (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) that it does with anywhere else....

    You know, since Slavs, Italians, and Anglo-Saxons are all Europeans….”

    Different ethnic groups that historically were not on the same level.
     

    But who all had far more in common with one another than they do with Blacks, Muslims, and Latinx Mestizos and Amerinds...

    “Not as detrimental as it might have been. After all, those groups had a great deal in common”

    Being from Europe. But they had different languages, customs, and lifestyles.
     

    See above. Anglo-Saxons had much more in common with Poles and Italians than they do with Blacks and Latinx Mestizos..

    Remember, WASPs worked diligently to ensure that Southern and Eastern Europeans would be significantly limited on the American scene.
     
    Which is another way in which the present is not a replay of the past, as our current elites are trying to flood the nation with non-Europeans....

    “Both Catholicism and Judaism have been significantly affected by Anglo-Protestant norms….”

    I am disputing this particular point (highlighted in bold)–“As Catholics assimilated to liberal Protestant American cultural norms, the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased.”
    Sources are needed here.
     

    That "the low-grade persecution of Catholics ceased?" You do live in the USA, right?

    Revealing different souls, separate orders of being”

    Yet, great artwork all the way around. And, indeed, “The Stranger” would speak to the difficulty of British descendants who reside in America and live among “foreigners”, including Eastern and Southern Europeans. So much for “unity”.
     

    Actually, no. Kipling was writing in a specific context. He was worried about East Asian immigration into Canada:

    Immigration is what you want in the West. You must have labourers there. You want immigration, and the way to keep the yellow man out is to get the white man in
     
    Some aliens are more alien than others.....

    “I know some kids who are 25% English-Scots, 25% Ashkenazi, 25% Polish, and 25% Italian…. No one cares.”

    LOL, of course people care!
     

    Can't get affirmative action with that kind of mix, dear fellow. According to our SJW masters, they're hideously White....

    “Law follows culture….And Blacks and Latinx are culturally alien…”

    Law and culture are interrelated. Blacks and Latinos are other than culturally alien. If you are going to be consistent here, then you will have to recognize the same argument made by nativists (WASPs) toward non-WASPs.

    “Anglo-Saxons had much more in common with Poles and Italians than they do with Blacks and Latinx Mestizos..”

    Being European and Christian. But the differences between Angl0-Saxons and non-Anglo-Saxons were noticeably striking. Exactly why nativists did not want Southern and Eastern Europeans around.

    Source –> https://www.dartmouth.edu/~hist32/History/White.htm

    “Between 1880 and WWI, the United States experienced large waves of European immigration. These “new immigrants” however did not come from northern Europe and represented a frightening diversity to many. The difference perceived in these immigrants was frequently described as a racial difference in which Europeans were represented as, not one, but many races identified by region (Alpine, Mediterranean, Slavic and Nordic) or by alleged headshape (roundheads, slopeheads). Madison Grant, a biologist and curator for the American Museum of Natural History in New York explained in his book The Passing of the Great Race that White Americans, the great race, were losing out to hordes of inferior European immigrants. Grant’s book was so popular it experienced 7 reprints before WWII. According to Grant, “These new immigrants were no longer exclusively members of the Nordic race as were the earlier ones…The transportation lines advertised America as a land flowing with milk and honey and the European governments took the opportunity to unload upon careless, wealthy and hospitable America the sweepings of their jails and asylums…Our jails, insane asylums and almshouses are filled with this human flotsam and the whole tone of american life, social, moral and political has been lowered and vulgarized by them.”

    So much for white unity!

    “Some aliens are more alien than others…”

    That is SJW-inspired double talk! The nativists felt that certain groups were alien, not “sort of” or “kind of”. Refer to the above quotation.

    “Actually, no. Kipling was writing in a specific context.”

    I am aware of the context. Yet, his work can be used as a justification by American nativists who opposed an “invasion of foreigners”, in this case Italians, Poles, and Slavs. That is why you cited it in relation to the “hordes of” Africans, Middle Easterners, and Asians who have entered our shores.

    “Asian influences are practically non-existent; Amerind influences are pretty much limited to various forms of food (cornbread, anyone?);African influences are mostly in the realm of popular music”

    No. Asian, Native American, and African contributions to the American culture are much more deeper than what you stated. I do not expect you to admit this fact.

    • Replies: @bomag

    Asian, Native American, and African contributions to the American culture are much more deeper than what you stated
     
    You can enjoy someone's cultural attainment without importing the people; and you don't get the negative externalities. Why lecture Americans on the pressing need to import the Other for cultural enrichment while most of the world imports no one? Go lecture someone else.

    Methinks though dost argue in favor too much. The warnings of immigration critics have come to pass; the US has done okay in spite of these problems; that we have been able to ameliorate the effects speaks to our abilities, not to the inherent goodness of mass population transfer. It well could have been a much better country otherwise.
  260. @oddsbodkins
    Ashland, Oregon is one of the zip codes identified as an out-of-touch bubble by Charles Murray. It is a slice of Berkeley dropped into the woods midway between SF and Portland.

    “Ashland, Oregon” has never made an appearance on the iSteve blog’s nearly 17 years online, until this thread.

    It is in Jackson County, Oregon:

    Jackson County
    1970 population: 95,000 (of which 12,000 in Ashland)
    2020 population: ca. 225,000 [<1% Black] (of which 21,000 in Ashland)

    The population declined from near 100% White in 1970 to a mere 85-90% White today. This means a net gain of over 100,000 Whites. Source of these Whites? Most likely explanation would seem to be California refugees:

    [Ashland] lies along Interstate 5 approximately 16 miles (26 km) north of the California border

    Historically, Ashland has been something of a political outlier in southwest Oregon. In the presidential election of 1860 [population: 327], Ashland favored Abraham Lincoln while its neighbors strongly preferred pro-slavery candidates. In the early 1900s [1910 population: 5,020], Ashland voters supported women’s suffrage and prohibition, generally out of step with the rest of the region. In more recent elections, liberal Ashland has supported tax levies and environmental regulations opposed by voters elsewhere in Jackson and nearby counties. Critics sometimes refer to the city as the People’s Republic of Ashland.

    Current mayor of Ashland: John Stromberg (Scandinavian surname).

    A native Californian, he has lived in Oregon for 25 years. He and his wife resided in Eugene for 14 years prior to moving to Ashland in 2000

    Left California in 1986 for Oregon. The mayor himself a California refugee?

  261. @bomag
    This is just more of your autistic ramblings.

    Today, indeed there are new immigrants who live in certain areas, and perhaps a few want to “permanently” remove whites. But there sentiment is no different than past immigrants.
     

    That's a pretty good argument against immigration. Thanks for making it.

    There are MANY cases where mass immigration “seemed to work”. And you have been supporting it yourself!
     

    You don't understand percentages. Most of history is akin to the Algerians kicking out the French rather than nice white Scandinavian ladies in the US running bake sales to support the local illegals.

    aliens... have the liberty to take over. We won’t “cede” anything to them, because we will fight them tooth and nail. But, in the end, we will succumb. Isn’t that how it always has been?
     
    People in defense can hold out against those several times more powerful. The point here was that we should not invite them in and give them our stuff in the name of martyring ourselves in service to the GDP, which is the current orthodoxy. And we're currently giving our stuff away to those who destroy value; we can't even get this much right.

    Current issues for past European colonies are a direct result of European invasion and intervention.
     
    Amusing that a few wooden ships landing on a shore; running a few parades; setting up trade and transferring technology; has now become a never ending source of excuses for non-performance. And in service to this narrative, Europeans who have no connection to colonialism are targeted. Meanwhile, countries shattered by war and natural disasters manage to overcome and rebuild. This is sort of a backhanded compliment to Europeans: "you are so powerful that we can't overcome your bad colonial ju-ju from back in 1620. We must have reparations and access to your women, which won't change anything and will never end, but we have Corvinus brainwashed and his FEELZ! must be honored, so hand over your stuff."

    WASPs who did believe in “magic dirt”... Exactly what the WASPs said to... Do you realize the dilemma you face?
     
    Is your brain really that small?

    It is a universal thing that one grows organically. India went from 200 million people in 1950 to 1.2 billion today. Sitting in 1950, should India have added that 1 billion people from encouraging their own, or importing the Other since it worked out so well for America circa 1880? Do you have your own kids, or do you adopt because that worked out so well for your neighbor?

    Immigration is one of those large # of variable problems with many consequences, akin to war. Is there such a thing as a good war? Our success in the "good war" of WWII led to overreach as the world's policeman. You justify our current mass immigration by pointing to a rosy interpretation of past immigration. Not that you are a stupid person, but this is a stupid way of thinking.

    “This is just more of your autistic ramblings.”

    You mean you are at a loss for words due to my lucid arguments.

    “That’s a pretty good argument against immigration. Thanks for making it.”

    Except that would mean millions of Southern and Eastern Europeans–whites!–would have to go back. Would you agree or disagree? Why? Because it seems to me that you are advocating “magic dirt”. Interesting how you are steering clear of making it clear as to your position on that concept.

    “Most of history is akin to the Algerians kicking out the French…”

    Colonization and immigration are on separate historical planes, friend.

    “The point here was that we should not invite them in and give them our stuff in the name of martyring ourselves in service to the GDP, which is the current orthodoxy.”

    Past AND present. And it’s not really “giving them our stuff”. Companies seek to make profits. Now, I do agree that we ought to limit the number of people entering our nation, but who will cut our grass, cook our food, make our hotel beds, and pick our fruits/vegetables?

    “Amusing that a few wooden ships landing on a shore; running a few parades; setting up trade and transferring technology; has now become a never ending source of excuses for non-performance.”

    You are woefully underselling the impact of colonization and imperialism. Bravo, sir.

    “This is sort of a backhanded compliment to Europeans: “you are so powerful that we can’t overcome your bad colonial ju-ju from back in 1620.”

    Colonization and imperialism lasted until WW2. You realize that you come across as being historically illiterate, right?

    “Immigration is one of those large # of variable problems with many consequences, akin to war.”

    Positive and negative consequences.

    “Is there such a thing as a good war?”

    Depends on who is the victor.

    “You justify our current mass immigration by pointing to a rosy interpretation of past immigration.”

    Wasn’t past immigration “rosy”? I mean, we allowed white Europeans to come here. Now are you saying it was other than “rosy”? Are you coming or going, I cannot tell.

    • Replies: @bomag

    would mean millions of Southern and Eastern Europeans... would have to go back. Would you agree or disagree? Why? Because it seems to me that you are advocating “magic dirt”. Interesting how you are steering clear of making it clear as to your position on that concept.
     
    Nature has foreclosed on going back in time. We're in the business of building a future, which should include more WASPs, since they build the places to which people aspire when given the chance to vote with their feet.

    magic dirt
     
    There's both nature and nurture, but having more than one variable in play is something you can't grasp.

    Colonization and immigration are on separate historical planes
     
    Isomorphic.

    You are woefully underselling the impact of colonization and imperialism.
     
    The truth hurts.

    Colonization and imperialism lasted until WW2. You realize that you come across as being historically illiterate, right?
     
    Whoosh.

    The politics of colonialism is such that any whiff entitles the victim to unlimited compensation.

    Wasn’t past immigration “rosy”? I mean, we allowed white Europeans to come here. Now are you saying it was other than “rosy”? Are you coming or going, I cannot tell.
     
    More of your good-bad dichotomous thinking.

    Past immigration wasn't all that rosy; and the killer is that it is used to justify the crap we have today.
  262. @Corvinus
    "Law follows culture….And Blacks and Latinx are culturally alien…"

    Law and culture are interrelated. Blacks and Latinos are other than culturally alien. If you are going to be consistent here, then you will have to recognize the same argument made by nativists (WASPs) toward non-WASPs.

    "Anglo-Saxons had much more in common with Poles and Italians than they do with Blacks and Latinx Mestizos.."

    Being European and Christian. But the differences between Angl0-Saxons and non-Anglo-Saxons were noticeably striking. Exactly why nativists did not want Southern and Eastern Europeans around.

    Source --> https://www.dartmouth.edu/~hist32/History/White.htm

    "Between 1880 and WWI, the United States experienced large waves of European immigration. These "new immigrants" however did not come from northern Europe and represented a frightening diversity to many. The difference perceived in these immigrants was frequently described as a racial difference in which Europeans were represented as, not one, but many races identified by region (Alpine, Mediterranean, Slavic and Nordic) or by alleged headshape (roundheads, slopeheads). Madison Grant, a biologist and curator for the American Museum of Natural History in New York explained in his book The Passing of the Great Race that White Americans, the great race, were losing out to hordes of inferior European immigrants. Grant's book was so popular it experienced 7 reprints before WWII. According to Grant, "These new immigrants were no longer exclusively members of the Nordic race as were the earlier ones...The transportation lines advertised America as a land flowing with milk and honey and the European governments took the opportunity to unload upon careless, wealthy and hospitable America the sweepings of their jails and asylums...Our jails, insane asylums and almshouses are filled with this human flotsam and the whole tone of american life, social, moral and political has been lowered and vulgarized by them."

    So much for white unity!

    "Some aliens are more alien than others…"

    That is SJW-inspired double talk! The nativists felt that certain groups were alien, not "sort of" or "kind of". Refer to the above quotation.

    "Actually, no. Kipling was writing in a specific context."

    I am aware of the context. Yet, his work can be used as a justification by American nativists who opposed an "invasion of foreigners", in this case Italians, Poles, and Slavs. That is why you cited it in relation to the "hordes of" Africans, Middle Easterners, and Asians who have entered our shores.

    "Asian influences are practically non-existent; Amerind influences are pretty much limited to various forms of food (cornbread, anyone?);African influences are mostly in the realm of popular music"

    No. Asian, Native American, and African contributions to the American culture are much more deeper than what you stated. I do not expect you to admit this fact.

    Asian, Native American, and African contributions to the American culture are much more deeper than what you stated

    You can enjoy someone’s cultural attainment without importing the people; and you don’t get the negative externalities. Why lecture Americans on the pressing need to import the Other for cultural enrichment while most of the world imports no one? Go lecture someone else.

    Methinks though dost argue in favor too much. The warnings of immigration critics have come to pass; the US has done okay in spite of these problems; that we have been able to ameliorate the effects speaks to our abilities, not to the inherent goodness of mass population transfer. It well could have been a much better country otherwise.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "You can enjoy someone’s cultural attainment without importing the people..."

    You mean you can appreciate when your culture is enhanced by different groups of people coming together who share a similar vision.

    "Why lecture Americans on the pressing need to import the Other for cultural enrichment while most of the world imports no one?"

    Except the migration of people is not "importing".

    "The warnings of immigration critics have come to pass"

    Including the "importation" of Southern And Eastern Europeans? You know, white people?

    "that we have been able to ameliorate the effects speaks to our abilities"

    Which includes our inherent goodness as people to help people adjust.

    "It well could have been a much better country otherwise."

    Without Southern and Eastern Europeans? That is what WASPs would generally say. How about you?
  263. @Corvinus
    "This is just more of your autistic ramblings."

    You mean you are at a loss for words due to my lucid arguments.

    "That’s a pretty good argument against immigration. Thanks for making it."

    Except that would mean millions of Southern and Eastern Europeans--whites!--would have to go back. Would you agree or disagree? Why? Because it seems to me that you are advocating "magic dirt". Interesting how you are steering clear of making it clear as to your position on that concept.

    "Most of history is akin to the Algerians kicking out the French..."

    Colonization and immigration are on separate historical planes, friend.

    "The point here was that we should not invite them in and give them our stuff in the name of martyring ourselves in service to the GDP, which is the current orthodoxy."

    Past AND present. And it's not really "giving them our stuff". Companies seek to make profits. Now, I do agree that we ought to limit the number of people entering our nation, but who will cut our grass, cook our food, make our hotel beds, and pick our fruits/vegetables?

    "Amusing that a few wooden ships landing on a shore; running a few parades; setting up trade and transferring technology; has now become a never ending source of excuses for non-performance."

    You are woefully underselling the impact of colonization and imperialism. Bravo, sir.

    "This is sort of a backhanded compliment to Europeans: “you are so powerful that we can’t overcome your bad colonial ju-ju from back in 1620."

    Colonization and imperialism lasted until WW2. You realize that you come across as being historically illiterate, right?

    "Immigration is one of those large # of variable problems with many consequences, akin to war."

    Positive and negative consequences.

    "Is there such a thing as a good war?"

    Depends on who is the victor.

    "You justify our current mass immigration by pointing to a rosy interpretation of past immigration."

    Wasn't past immigration "rosy"? I mean, we allowed white Europeans to come here. Now are you saying it was other than "rosy"? Are you coming or going, I cannot tell.

    would mean millions of Southern and Eastern Europeans… would have to go back. Would you agree or disagree? Why? Because it seems to me that you are advocating “magic dirt”. Interesting how you are steering clear of making it clear as to your position on that concept.

    Nature has foreclosed on going back in time. We’re in the business of building a future, which should include more WASPs, since they build the places to which people aspire when given the chance to vote with their feet.

    magic dirt

    There’s both nature and nurture, but having more than one variable in play is something you can’t grasp.

    Colonization and immigration are on separate historical planes

    Isomorphic.

    You are woefully underselling the impact of colonization and imperialism.

    The truth hurts.

    Colonization and imperialism lasted until WW2. You realize that you come across as being historically illiterate, right?

    Whoosh.

    The politics of colonialism is such that any whiff entitles the victim to unlimited compensation.

    Wasn’t past immigration “rosy”? I mean, we allowed white Europeans to come here. Now are you saying it was other than “rosy”? Are you coming or going, I cannot tell.

    More of your good-bad dichotomous thinking.

    Past immigration wasn’t all that rosy; and the killer is that it is used to justify the crap we have today.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Nature has foreclosed on going back in time."

    According to Who/Whom?

    "We’re in the business of building a future..."

    OK, who is this "we"?

    "which should include more WASPs, since they build the places to which people aspire when given the chance to vote with their feet."

    Actually, it's people who construct such areas.

    "The truth hurts."

    Indeed. You are woefully underselling the impact of colonization and imperialism.

    "More of your good-bad dichotomous thinking."

    No, just nuanced thinking.

    "Past immigration wasn’t all that rosy; and the killer is that it is used to justify the crap we have today."

    You mean the same WASP arguments against Southern and Eastern Europeans are being used today.
  264. @bomag

    would mean millions of Southern and Eastern Europeans... would have to go back. Would you agree or disagree? Why? Because it seems to me that you are advocating “magic dirt”. Interesting how you are steering clear of making it clear as to your position on that concept.
     
    Nature has foreclosed on going back in time. We're in the business of building a future, which should include more WASPs, since they build the places to which people aspire when given the chance to vote with their feet.

    magic dirt
     
    There's both nature and nurture, but having more than one variable in play is something you can't grasp.

    Colonization and immigration are on separate historical planes
     
    Isomorphic.

    You are woefully underselling the impact of colonization and imperialism.
     
    The truth hurts.

    Colonization and imperialism lasted until WW2. You realize that you come across as being historically illiterate, right?
     
    Whoosh.

    The politics of colonialism is such that any whiff entitles the victim to unlimited compensation.

    Wasn’t past immigration “rosy”? I mean, we allowed white Europeans to come here. Now are you saying it was other than “rosy”? Are you coming or going, I cannot tell.
     
    More of your good-bad dichotomous thinking.

    Past immigration wasn't all that rosy; and the killer is that it is used to justify the crap we have today.

    “Nature has foreclosed on going back in time.”

    According to Who/Whom?

    “We’re in the business of building a future…”

    OK, who is this “we”?

    “which should include more WASPs, since they build the places to which people aspire when given the chance to vote with their feet.”

    Actually, it’s people who construct such areas.

    “The truth hurts.”

    Indeed. You are woefully underselling the impact of colonization and imperialism.

    “More of your good-bad dichotomous thinking.”

    No, just nuanced thinking.

    “Past immigration wasn’t all that rosy; and the killer is that it is used to justify the crap we have today.”

    You mean the same WASP arguments against Southern and Eastern Europeans are being used today.

  265. @bomag

    Asian, Native American, and African contributions to the American culture are much more deeper than what you stated
     
    You can enjoy someone's cultural attainment without importing the people; and you don't get the negative externalities. Why lecture Americans on the pressing need to import the Other for cultural enrichment while most of the world imports no one? Go lecture someone else.

    Methinks though dost argue in favor too much. The warnings of immigration critics have come to pass; the US has done okay in spite of these problems; that we have been able to ameliorate the effects speaks to our abilities, not to the inherent goodness of mass population transfer. It well could have been a much better country otherwise.

    “You can enjoy someone’s cultural attainment without importing the people…”

    You mean you can appreciate when your culture is enhanced by different groups of people coming together who share a similar vision.

    “Why lecture Americans on the pressing need to import the Other for cultural enrichment while most of the world imports no one?”

    Except the migration of people is not “importing”.

    “The warnings of immigration critics have come to pass”

    Including the “importation” of Southern And Eastern Europeans? You know, white people?

    “that we have been able to ameliorate the effects speaks to our abilities”

    Which includes our inherent goodness as people to help people adjust.

    “It well could have been a much better country otherwise.”

    Without Southern and Eastern Europeans? That is what WASPs would generally say. How about you?

    • Replies: @bomag

    Which includes our inherent goodness as people to help people adjust.
     
    It gives you a warm feeling to advocate for others; status signalling and all that. But we're better off if we raise up people that don't need help to adjust; let's get people that hit the ground running instead of people who require Corvinus to intercede on their behalf for a net negative result.
  266. You mean the same WASP arguments against Southern and Eastern Europeans are being used today.

    Continually repeating an argument doesn’t add to its veracity.

    Almost all of human history consists of growing in place with your people. Mass migration is upsetting; and that there is any hint that it worked out as a net good is a rare thing. Such outliers are seldom repeated.

    No, just nuanced thinking.

    Mail me all the times you’ve been complimented for nuanced thinking.

    You are woefully underselling the impact of colonization and imperialism.

    Plenty of bad things have happened in history. But a former colony such as Algeria could well be in a worse place today than if it didn’t have a colonial history: access to French markets; tech; and area could well count for more in the long run. You can always gin up a better outcome, but it could well have been worse.

    it’s people who construct such areas

    And personnel is policy.

    Despite what your handlers have downloaded into your brain, all men are not created equal.

    OK, who is this “we”?

    You know what I mean.

  267. @Corvinus
    "You can enjoy someone’s cultural attainment without importing the people..."

    You mean you can appreciate when your culture is enhanced by different groups of people coming together who share a similar vision.

    "Why lecture Americans on the pressing need to import the Other for cultural enrichment while most of the world imports no one?"

    Except the migration of people is not "importing".

    "The warnings of immigration critics have come to pass"

    Including the "importation" of Southern And Eastern Europeans? You know, white people?

    "that we have been able to ameliorate the effects speaks to our abilities"

    Which includes our inherent goodness as people to help people adjust.

    "It well could have been a much better country otherwise."

    Without Southern and Eastern Europeans? That is what WASPs would generally say. How about you?

    Which includes our inherent goodness as people to help people adjust.

    It gives you a warm feeling to advocate for others; status signalling and all that. But we’re better off if we raise up people that don’t need help to adjust; let’s get people that hit the ground running instead of people who require Corvinus to intercede on their behalf for a net negative result.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    You have an interesting way of avoiding my questions and addressing my comments. But why should I be surprised.

    "It gives you a warm feeling to advocate for others; status signalling and all that."

    There is no"status signalling" here. Just that "warm feeling" of making the world a better place. You?

    "But we’re better off if we raise up people that don’t need help to adjust"

    Including the WASPs who relied on Native Americans for assistance?

    "let’s get people that hit the ground running instead of people who require Corvinus to intercede..."

    You mean solid citizens who lend a helping hand to help people move forward to improve their society.

    "on their behalf for a net negative result."

    Like the Southern and Eastern Europeans?

    "Continually repeating an argument doesn’t add to its veracity."

    Except if that argument is valid and the opposing person puts his hands on their ears and says repeatedly "Not listening, not listening".

    "But a former colony such as Algeria could well be in a worse place today than if it didn’t have a colonial history"

    Operative word here is "could". Perhaps the Algerians should have been left to their own devices rather than be ravaged by their alleged European superiors.

    "Mass migration is upsetting..."

    It can be upsetting.

    "and that there is any hint that it worked out as a net good is a rare thing."

    Turned out quite well for the United States for a long period of time.

    "Despite what your handlers have downloaded into your brain, all men are not created equal."

    You mean Thomas Jefferson, a Founding Father, not a "handler".

    "OK, who is this “we”? You know what I mean."

    No, I really don't. Spell it out in detail.
  268. @bomag

    Which includes our inherent goodness as people to help people adjust.
     
    It gives you a warm feeling to advocate for others; status signalling and all that. But we're better off if we raise up people that don't need help to adjust; let's get people that hit the ground running instead of people who require Corvinus to intercede on their behalf for a net negative result.

    You have an interesting way of avoiding my questions and addressing my comments. But why should I be surprised.

    “It gives you a warm feeling to advocate for others; status signalling and all that.”

    There is no”status signalling” here. Just that “warm feeling” of making the world a better place. You?

    “But we’re better off if we raise up people that don’t need help to adjust”

    Including the WASPs who relied on Native Americans for assistance?

    “let’s get people that hit the ground running instead of people who require Corvinus to intercede…”

    You mean solid citizens who lend a helping hand to help people move forward to improve their society.

    “on their behalf for a net negative result.”

    Like the Southern and Eastern Europeans?

    “Continually repeating an argument doesn’t add to its veracity.”

    Except if that argument is valid and the opposing person puts his hands on their ears and says repeatedly “Not listening, not listening”.

    “But a former colony such as Algeria could well be in a worse place today than if it didn’t have a colonial history”

    Operative word here is “could”. Perhaps the Algerians should have been left to their own devices rather than be ravaged by their alleged European superiors.

    “Mass migration is upsetting…”

    It can be upsetting.

    “and that there is any hint that it worked out as a net good is a rare thing.”

    Turned out quite well for the United States for a long period of time.

    “Despite what your handlers have downloaded into your brain, all men are not created equal.”

    You mean Thomas Jefferson, a Founding Father, not a “handler”.

    “OK, who is this “we”? You know what I mean.”

    No, I really don’t. Spell it out in detail.

  269. …avoiding my questions

    It’s all about you.

    Your particular questions are rhetorical; the disagreement here is about basic premises.

    You assert all men are created equal; I assert that they are not.

    You assert that your private beliefs and practices can be mapped onto public policy; I assert that this is a poor practice: you can give your personal stuff away, but that doesn’t mean the rest of us should give away our society at large just to share the chemical rush you get in your brain from pathological altruism.

    You don’t acknowledge that resources are finite; that more Mayans in the country leaves less opportunity for other groups; you don’t acknowledge the opportunity costs of immigration: filling the place with Mayans may still work, but it won’t work as well as filling it with Anglo Saxons.

    “But we’re better off if we raise up people that don’t need help to adjust”

    Including the WASPs who relied on Native Americans for assistance?

    Misses the point. You want to draw a moral equivalency, but that’s not the point. If the Native Americans wanted more people around, they should have raised up their own, instead of listening to their Corvinus and importing Englishmen in the name of global fairness.

    solid citizens who lend a helping hand to help people move forward to improve their society.

    Solid citizens don’t have unlimited resources. They should help those that offer the greatest return on investment.

    “on their behalf for a net negative result.”

    Like the Southern and Eastern Europeans?

    There could well have been better investments than Southern and Eastern Europeans… such as the native’s own children.

    [mass immigration] Turned out quite well for the United States for a long period of time

    Didn’t necessarily turn out well; could have had a different and better outcome if the natives had taken Napoleon’s advice and filled the country via repeated fornication; was a historically brief time span in a localized place.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS
PastClassics
The unspoken statistical reality of urban crime over the last quarter century.
Which superpower is more threatened by its “extractive elites”?
How a Young Syndicate Lawyer from Chicago Earned a Fortune Looting the Property of the Japanese-Americans, then Lived...
Becker update V1.3.2