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From a column in the New York Times:

The Gender Gap Is Taking Us to Unexpected Places

Jan. 12, 2022

By Thomas B. Edsall

Mr. Edsall contributes a weekly column from Washington, D.C., on politics, demographics and inequality.

In one of the most revealing studies in recent years, a 2016 survey of 137,456 full-time, first-year students at 184 colleges and universities in the United States, the U.C.L.A. Higher Education Research Institute found “the largest-ever gender gap in terms of political leanings: 41.1 percent of women, an all-time high, identified themselves as liberal or far left, compared to 28.9 percent of men.”

The institute has conducted freshmen surveys every year since 1966. In the early days, until 1980, men were consistently more liberal than women. In the early and mid-1980s, the share of liberals among male and female students was roughly equal, but since 1987, women have been more liberal than men in the first year of college.

While liberal and left identification among female students reached a high in 2016, male students remained far below their 1971 high, which was 44 percent.

And shortly thereafter the draft was over…

Along parallel lines, a Knight Foundation survey in 2017 of 3,014 college students asked: “If you had to choose, which do you think is more important, a diverse and inclusive society or protecting free speech rights.”

Male students preferred protecting free speech over an inclusive and diverse society by a decisive 61 to 39. Female students took the opposite position, favoring an inclusive, diverse society over free speech by 64 to 35.

Majorities of both male and female college students in the Knight survey support the view that the First Amendment should not be used to protect hate speech, but the men were more equivocal, at 56 to 43, than women, at 71 to 29.

… Dennis Chong, a political scientist at the University of Southern California, wrote by email that “a gender gap in political tolerance, with women being somewhat more willing to censor controversial and potentially harmful ideas, goes back to the earliest survey research on the subject in the 1950s.”

There are a number of possible explanations, Chong said, including “stronger religious and moral attitudes among women; lesser political involvement resulting in weaker support for democratic norms; social psychological factors such as intolerance of ambiguity and uncertainty which translate to intolerance for political and social nonconformity; and greater susceptibility to feelings of threats posed by unconventional ideas and groups.”

In an email, Steven Pinker wrote:

We’re seeing two sets of forces that can pull in opposite directions. One set comprises the common interests of men on the one hand and women on the other. Men tend to be more obsessed with status and dominance and are more willing to take risks to compete for them; women are more likely to prize health and safety and to reduce conflict.

When the academic world opened up to women in the 1970s and 1980s, [Jonathan] Haidt continued, “women flooded into some areas but showed less interest in others. In my experience, having entered in the 1990s, the academic culture of predominantly female fields is very different from those that are predominantly male.”

Haidt noted:

Boys and men enjoy direct status competition and confrontation, so the central drama of male-culture disciplines is ‘“Hey, Jones says his theory is better than Smith’s; let’s all gather around and watch them fight it out, in a colloquium or in dueling journal articles.” In fact, I’d say that many of the norms and institutions of the Anglo-American university were originally designed to harness male status-seeking and turn it into scholarly progress.

Women are just as competitive as men, Haidt wrote, “but they do it differently.”

He cited a 2013 paper, “The development of human female competition: allies and adversaries,” by Joyce Benenson, of Harvard’s department of human evolutionary biology. In it, Benenson writes:

From early childhood onwards, girls compete using strategies that minimize the risk of retaliation and reduce the strength of other girls. Girls’ competitive strategies include avoiding direct interference with another girl’s goals, disguising competition, competing overtly only from a position of high status in the community, enforcing equality within the female community and socially excluding other girls.

… In an email, Benenson added another dimension to the discussion of sex roles in organizational politics:

From an early age, women clearly dislike group hierarchies of same-sex individuals more than men do. Thus, while boys and men are more willing to compete directly with both higher and lower status individuals, girls and women prefer to interact with same-sex individuals of similar status. This does not mean however that girls and women don’t care about status as much as boys and men do. For both sexes, high status increases the probability that one lives longer and so do one’s children. The result of these two somewhat conflicting motives is that girls and women seek high status but disguise this quest by avoiding direct contests. This gender difference likely impacts how women seek to shape organizational culture.

The strategies Benenson and her colleagues describe, Haidt pointed out,

lead to a different kind of conflict. There is a greater emphasis on what someone said which hurt someone else, even if unintentionally. There is a greater tendency to respond to an offense by mobilizing social resources to ostracize the alleged offender.

Basically, although feminist theory assumes the opposite, men mostly compete against men and women against women. Men can cooperate while ribbing each other pretty hard. I finally watched the fine neo-Western movie Hell or High Water (script by Taylor Sheridan, creator of the hit TV show Yellowstone), in which the outlaws and the law both consist of pairs of guys constantly insulting each other while getting a lot done.

Women, in contrast, tend to compete with each other via snide remarks. So women tend to assume more that of course the authorities should silence anybody who is saying anything not nice.

 
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  1. “If you had to choose, which do you think is more important, a diverse and inclusive society or protecting free speech rights.”

    Less free and full of people who create poll questions where it’s all but explicitly stated that “diversity” and “inclusion” are the opposite of… free speech? Huh?

    Since all Good People know “diversity” and “inclusion” are sacrosanct, that free speech business, while kinda OK, will just have to go.

    • Replies: @Prof. Woland
  2. Majorities of both male and female college students in the Knight survey support the view that the First Amendment should not be used to protect hate speech

    And since “hate speech” turns out to be defined as “anything we really don’t like” the entire survey is questionable.

    Women watch way, way too much television. MSM propaganda is behind most every aspect of the destruction of Western Civilization.

    • Agree: Gordo
    • Replies: @J1234
  3. Anonymous[416] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s also a dumber one. Women on average have lower IQs and have 12% smaller brains and about 4 Billion fewer neurons than men:

    https://www.unz.com/article/how-and-why-men-and-women-differ-in-intelligence/

    Yet the male brain is on average 12 percent larger than the female brain, in both newborns and adults. Recent studies using in vivo magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) indicate that brain size has a correlation of between .31 and .43 with intelligence. The identical or near-identical IQ averages by sex were therefore a puzzle.

    Arthur Jensen hypothesized that men and women might have the same number of neurons, with those of women more densely packed. However, subsequent research has shown that the male advantage in neurons is even greater than in brain weight: 16 percent, or the equivalent of four billion neurons.

    • Thanks: Grahamsno(G64)
  4. Hell or High Water was really good.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob, Old Prude
    • Replies: @Old Prude
    , @SunBakedSuburb
  5. Roger says: • Website

    This explains why organizations of women, or mostly women, are dysfunctional. Civilization would never have been possible if women were in charge. It takes organizations of men to accomplish anything.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    , @mc23
  6. There’s an old meme with three guys–one departing while the two are saying their good-byes via insults (e.g., “say hello to your mom for me!”, etc.). Once the guy’s gone, the two remark how great of a guy he is.

    Next frame is same thing but with girls: “Bye sweetie!” “Love you!”, etc. Once she’s out of frame, though, the backstabbing begins: “What a bitch!” “Can you believe her?” etc.

    I’d link a pic but that would take effort.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Almost Missouri
  7. notsaying says:

    “Knight Foundation survey in 2017 of 3,014 college students asked: “If you had to choose, which do you think is more important, a diverse and inclusive society or protecting free speech rights.”

    It was true in 2007, 2017 and 2022: We have a diverse country. Due to recent immigration we have a far larger percentage of Hispanics and Asians than we did before the mass migration of the past few decades. So why do people still talk about having “diversity” as if we do not have it or could stop being diverse by just saying no? Is this a way of asking if people want continued high immigration so the percentage of whites is even lower? I have no idea. But it makes no sense as a question that requires an answer. So something else is going on.

  8. This just means the country is fuked.

  9. Men can cooperate while ribbing each other pretty hard.

    I was reflecting on this very point today. One of the main changes in the workplace I have seen is the serious decline of, for lack of a better word, ball busting. In the NE US culture I grew up in, busting on people was a sign of friendship. I think it also had the effect of keeping people from taking themselves too seriously.

    A wisecrack and laughter is a quick and effective way to strangle a stupid idea in the crib, before it can do any harm. How much of Wokeness and all of the other insanity in the world today is there because of the lack of a pithy put down when someone first came up with the idea?

    • Agree: fish, Mike Tre
    • Replies: @Sick 'n Tired
    , @Old Prude
  10. And women wonder why men tend to ignore their ideas.

    • Replies: @Kylie
  11. Besides the male and female view of free speech rights and inclusion, there is also the objective view.
    The advancement of knowledge requires debate. This in turn requires free speech.
    Inclusion requires honoring everyone’s opinion, even when they are wrong. This in turn requires lying.
    So the real question isn’t “free speech or inclusion?”
    The question is, “Is knowledge good?”
    Men answer yes, women answer no.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  12. Abe says:

    There is a greater emphasis on what someone said which hurt someone else, even if unintentionally. There is a greater tendency to respond to an offense by mobilizing social resources to ostracize the alleged offender.

    Here is some serious wise older man game I’ve learned- when I expect conflict with the wife I first mobilize and then deploy the kids. Nothing will make a woman fold faster and step back in line than the feeling “everyone” (i.e, the rest of the family) is against her. Of course this maneuver really only works if you are the undisputed beloved parent in the family, which requires years of care, attention, relationship-building with your kids as if, you know, you really did love and care about them.

    • Agree: Another Canadian
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  13. @NJ Transit Commuter

    I grew up in a construction family and have worked in the trades for 25+ years. Busting balls, talking shit, cursing, and cracking jokes is how we all get along on jobsites and is a way of letting others at work that we’re all in the shit together. I have friends who work in offices, and I have done electrical work in active offices, and they are such neutered workplaces, especially for men. Especially these days when telling a female coworker she looks nice will get you reported to HR, as will telling an off color joke, cursing, or saying something vaguely sexist/racist. It must be a very stressful work environment to have to walk around on eggshells all day, every day in order to earn a paycheck that’s probably 1/2 of what a 3rd year electrical helper makes.

  14. Ano says:

    Steve,

    Speaking as a woman, no I don’t leave it to ‘the authorities’ when it comes to silencing anybody who is saying anything not nice about me.

    Yours,

    Hillary

    PS: Vote for me in 2024! (Or else…)

    • LOL: Craig Nelsen
  15. If you look at the failed Rajneeshpuram commune through a gender prism, it was a matriarchy with almost all of the managerial leadership roles given to women. This was celebrated at the time as very progressive. It quickly devolved into backbiting, gossip, social exclusion and later on, poisonings and wiretapping. Women made the call in all of these decisions. As far as I know no one’s studied Rajneeshpuram as a case of feminism gone haywire. I guess it’s one of those cases where if it didn’t work, it’s not worth studying.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    , @Thea
  16. The institute has conducted freshmen surveys every year since 1966. In the early days, until 1980, men were consistently more liberal than women.

    Long before that. Women were more Republican in the US and more Tory in the UK for most of the 20th century. Helen Andrews found evidence that suffragists opposed letting women vote on suffrage itself, because they knew it would fare even worse than before a male electorate. (Women had already been voting for offices like school boards in most places, so the logistics of including them in a referendum were simple.)

    And shortly thereafter the draft was over…

    And those lucky boys born in the last 33 months of the 1950s (not naming names here…) didn’t even have to register:

    Men born from March 29, 1957 through December 31, 1959, were not required to register with the Selective Service System because the registration program was suspended when they would have reached age 18. The requirement to register with Selective Service was reinstated in 1980, but only for men born January 1, 1960, or later.

    https://www.sss.gov/register/men-born-before-1960/

    So the postwar male experience varied quite a bit– an active draft alternating between peacetime and wartime, then registration only, then no registration, then back to registration, but without paper cards.

    Someone should fine-tune these surveys, to see if they change with the specific year of birth. Those subject to the draft in 1971 were born between 1945 and 1952.

    Male students preferred protecting free speech over an inclusive and diverse society by a decisive 61 to 39. Female students took the opposite position, favoring an inclusive, diverse society over free speech by 64 to 35.

    So men are by definition more liberal– if the word means anything!

    script by Taylor Sheridan

    This is a he-Taylor, born in 1970 on a ranch in central Texas. Possibly named for Zachary. A far cry from, say, Taylor Swift. (Who was named for James.)

  17. Anon[134] • Disclaimer says:
    @Matthew Kelly

    Next frame is same thing but with girls: “Bye sweetie!” “Love you!”, etc. Once she’s out of frame, though, the backstabbing begins: “What a bitch!” “Can you believe her?” etc.

    Men do this too. Men talk sh*t behind other guys’ backs all the time. The difference is that men can work together and get things done with each other even when they hate each other. Men can more easily suspend their feelings/emotions, be objective, and focus on the task and objective at hand.

  18. Sean says:

    Women, in contrast, tend to compete with each other via snide remarks. So women tend to assume more that of course the authorities should silence anybody who is saying anything not nice.

    Most conversation boils down to being about other people and their behaviour. What is different about women is they will try to get you talking about other people, draw out a disparaging remark, then go and inform them of what you said. As an old proverb has it ‘dogs that fetch also carry’.

  19. Women can’t compete with men intellectually or physically, so they use their sexuality to manipulate men. Foolish women compete with men one on one. Even marginally attractive women can find men to manipulate and use.

    Most women hate working for women bosses.

    Men make decisions and move forward. Women havev lots of unnecessary meetings where everyone is heatd and decisions are not made and over develop the data and refuse to act.

  20. Wilkey says:

    The Feminist abolition of freedom is most evident in the rallying cry for real and alleged victims of sexual assault: “Believe all women.” It’s the “By any means necessary” of feminism, and basically means the complete elimination of the right to a fair trial or the presumption of innocence.

    • Agree: AndrewR
  21. clyde says:

    A Feminized Culture accounts for most of the current Covidxyz hysteria, hypochondria and ultra-vaxxxx derangement syndromes. It accounts for why the Australians are going nuts over Novak Djokovic, showing their asses to the rest of the world. They are panicking like lemmings over the fairly benign OMG Omicron.
    Their Covid derangement syndrome comes from them having their penal colony paradise all locked away, locked down, isolated from the world’s Covid problems. Then Covid Omicron blows all this up. Everyone else is having a good laugh at the Aussie weakness and hysterics.

  22. SafeNow says:

    The institute has conducted freshmen surveys every year since 1966.

    I would guess that the majority of psychology experiments and surveys are conducted using college students as their subjects. This technique of being lazy and cheap and then extrapolating the result to a broad population usually seems questionable to me, and I think it is especially dubious in this situation.

    As far as having a broad study group goes, this website is excellent (for studying the style of only men); a wide range of ages, occupations, and locations. My informal observation of the “snideness” variable is that we tend to be quite polite and measured in the style of disagreement.

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  23. @Matthew Kelly

    Lol, I came to the comment section to see if I could find that exact cartoon, since search engines are not good at that.

  24. Let’s not forget the hair aspect. If you can feminize Goatse, you can feminize anything:

    Is that Christmas Island’s foremost contribution to the world’s culture?

    • Replies: @Anon
  25. Kylie says:
    @Redneck farmer

    “And women wonder why men tend to ignore their ideas.”

    I don’t. I wonder why men pay as much attention to women’s ideas as they do. I get that getting laid is of prime importance to men. But actually paying attention to women’s ideas seems an awfully high price to pay for that.

  26. The Roman Empire barred women from voting or holding public office and only lasted 1000 years without Grrl Power.

    Look no further than Canada for the opposite outcome: an entire country devolving into third world despotism because gaggles of shallow female dog terms keep voting for Jawline Yogafag.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  27. Ed says:

    Sometimes I wonder if previous prohibitions on women voting or Jim Crow were based on observed behaviors or something that was just assumed to be best at the time without much evidence?

    I’m beginning to think in both cases it was based on the accumulation of generations of observed behaviors.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite
  28. @Sick 'n Tired

    It must be a very stressful work environment to have to walk around on eggshells all day,

    Less stressful than simply boring. My impression is that men in female dominated offices just treat coworkers as essentially strangers, act professionally and then go home. That means an unfulfilling work environment and probably leads to men seeking social outlets on-line.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
  29. Women, in contrast, tend to compete with each other via snide remarks. So women tend to assume more that of course the authorities should silence anybody who is saying anything not nice.

    This.

    One of the reasons straight racial humor has gone down (except against whites in general) has been the feminizing presence in the field of comedy. Women simply can’t understand/get nervous when men start making racial jokes at one another good naturedly. It’s a sign of male closeness that you can joke about with your buddy about verboten topics, but women being women can’t understand that.

  30. @Peter Akuleyev

    Men in such offices either are condescendingly treated as children as a Mother Hen-alpha female takes over, or else is constantly besieged by gossipy drama as women in the office take everything another person says wildly personally and require HR meetings to intervene.

  31. Blodgie says:

    There’s actually a name for this phenomenon: gynocentricism.

    Everything revolves around them and their feelings and foolish men gladly play along.

    To take but one example, why is there affirmative action still for women?

    Why do normie men put up with it?

  32. @Sick 'n Tired

    Every female co-worker wears a sign : Please help me to feel offended.

    They get men to walk on eggshells because most of them walk around like they have a stick up their rear. They learned this tactic from their mothers. Workplace females have an arsenal of tactics that men cannot use unless they feminize. If you pulled those techniques on a construction site it would get your ass clobbered.

    Looking back I recall that female office workers will eavesdrop on every phone conversation or personal interaction you may have in order to glean any useful intel for future deployment. Men are not interested in women’s incessant chatter but women will pick up everything you say like a sponge. I was always startled by this because I couldn’t understand why anyone would think details of my mundane life were worth paying attention to.

    • Replies: @Elmer T. Jones
  33. Spud Boy says:

    There’s a sexual selection factor not mentioned in the post. Women encourage men to fight it out in dominance hierarchies so they can pick off the men at the top for mates. And men know if they can move up the hierarchy they have a better chance of landing a hot female mate. This dynamic doesn’t happen in reverse for reasons that I’m sure are obvious to the reader.

  34. Gamecock says:

    Majorities of both male and female college students in the Knight survey support the view that the First Amendment should not be used to protect hate speech, but the men were more equivocal, at 56 to 43, than women, at 71 to 29.

    An indictment of K-12 government schools. It should be 5-95. 5 because they didn’t understand the question.

    Government schooled kids think the First is there to protect nice speech. Which, of course, doesn’t need protection. The First must protect the not nice, else there is no need for it.

  35. What is the difference between “ribbing each other pretty hard” and “snide remarks”? Honest question. Is it a matter of tone? Men who are “ribbing” can be quite jolly, but snotty women will do it with a smile and honey, so what’s the real difference? Are men not seeking to undermine, just testing other men’s ability to be a good sport?

    • Replies: @joe862
    , @MeneMene
  36. @Elmer T. Jones

    I should amend that comment from “workplace” to “office”. Office work promotes these annoyances and men are just as big or worse aholes. I mercifully have not been in a corporate office culture for many years now.

  37. Arclight says:

    Anyone who has a son and daughter should instantly recognize how differently the two sexes channel their frustration/aggression or deal with conflict. Boys usually are willing to deal with another boy head on, and if not they just ignore the situation. Girls on the other hand love dealing out emotional punishment and ostracism, usually by enlisting a group of girls to target an individual or smaller group.

    One thing that should get more attention is the different cultural behaviors adopted and enforced by blacks – since black society in America is essentially a matriarchy – and that of basically everyone else since they are patriarchies on the whole. I think a lot of the black tendency towards blame-shifting and grievance is in large part a function of the hugely outsized role black women play in raising children, as primary breadwinners, and so on compared to black men as intact nuclear families went by the wayside. Even black men in nominally masculine roles like pro sports often have whiny, grievance-based attitudes on an off the court or field, and the impact of being raised primarily by women in this regard has been commented on by a few black media figures in sports as well.

  38. @Abe

    That works great, but it’s easier if they are boys.

  39. Soap operas are nothing if not a showcase of women in conflict with other women.

    The ways women do conflict is incomprehensible to the average straight male, who would rather see two people duke it out or shut up.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
  40. The Gender Gap Is Taking Us to Unexpected Places.

    I wouldn’t necessarily say “unexpected” – it’s more like “unwanted” and “miserable” (for BOTH sexes). Also, it’s not due to having a gender gap – it’s due to having a gap in the reverse direction.

    In the business world this would all be just the normally silliness you get on the road to Peak Stupidity were it not for the scourge of the evil HR Ladies – Part 1 – – Part 2 – – Interlude, featuring Toby Flenderson, and Part 3.

  41. Anon[112] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Goatse was an image of a man bent over and pulling his ass hole wider than most women can stretch their vaginal canal.

    How is that not feminized? Your gayness is showing.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  42. usNthem says:

    Thus we have men pretending to be women running roughshod over women in women’s sports – good. Karma is a b**** as they say.

  43. Mike Tre says:
    @Bragadocious

    I watched a fairly even documentary of the Rajneeshee sex cult and their take over of a rural Oregon Community back in the early 1980’s. While Rajneesh was the figurehead, the individual who really ran the show was a creature named Sheela Patel (aka Sheela Silverman – E.S.T.)

    A detailed look into her methods (poisoning an entire town with salmonella so they would not be able to vote, importing hundreds of homeless and drug abusing vagrants and negroes into the county to help the Rajneeshee vote themselves into power over the county) shows her to be one of the most vile and power hungry psychopaths currently breathing.

  44. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    The article then goes on to say that girls develop faster than boys so that they have an early IQ advantage that later gets cancelled out, with men having maybe a 4 point IQ advantage in adulthood, and having an advantage in mathematical skills while women excel in verbal skills.

    But this does not explain why a 12% to 16% difference in brain size only leads to a small difference in IQ.

  45. Luke Lea says:

    So Woke culture is primarily a co-ed phenomenon?

  46. Anon[112] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    4 points is huge. Remember, IQ is a quotient, not a number.

    Also the male advantage is spatial, not mathematical.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  47. @Anonymous

    It’s also a dumber one. Women on average have lower IQs and have 12% smaller brains and about 4 Billion fewer neurons than men:

    Aren’t women clustered in the middle of the IQ bell curve, while men are more heavily distributed at both tails? Just wondering whether really big male brains towards the right end of the bell curve could account for an average 12% difference in brain volume between the sexes. My guess is that there is some proportion of neurons in female brains dedicated to tasks which may have been evolutionarily useful but which wouldn’t show up on tests of IQ. For example, it has been shown that women can “see” many more colors and subtle differences between colors than men. When picking fruits, seeds and berries this is probably useful, but it is somewhat less useful after the advent of agriculture (we don’t intentionally grow poisonous berries, so don’t need to distinguish between the poisonous and nutritious so much while foraging).

    FWIW, although this is hard science feminists were making light of this a few years ago by referring facetiously to their “small girl brains,” but it really does seem like a self-own. I suppose they’re simultaneously denying the efficacy of IQ, so there would be consistency there but it’s really just an elaborate act of reality denial.

  48. @Jack D

    Women are smaller, easily by 12%-16% if both men and women maintained ideal weights. Perhaps it would be useful to control for size. I assume that larger taller men have larger brains compared to smaller men (and to some degree larger men are smarter as well). But when controlling for size, what’s the difference in cephalization ratio across genders? We could at least control for height. What’s the average difference in brain size between a 5’7” women vs a man of the same height? Which is smarter?

    • Replies: @Known Fact
  49. If you had to choose, which do you think is more important, a diverse and inclusive society or protecting free speech rights.

    This is a false choice that compares a principle and process (free speech) with an state or outcome (diverse and inclusive).

    Without Free Speech, diverse and inclusive cannot be sustained. Unless you take a somewhat crass definition of diverse.

    In interesting article though.

  50. Women and feminized liberal men not only don’t support free speech, they don’t grasp the concept that ‘offensive’ speech is the only kind that requires protection. Instead they seek to protect conventional ideas by limiting criticism.

    • Agree: Old Prude, Spect3r
    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
  51. jpvd2 says:

    I attended a very prestigious all-male prep school in New England – this was back in the 60s. I was part of a group of students agitating for co-education, including even marching on the administration building. We worked up all kinds of justifications – need the feminine perspective in classrooms, etc – but in retrospect what it came down to was a bunch of horny teenagers. Anyway it worked, not just because of us but mainly because boards of directors at a lot of all-male schools thought it was the thing to do at the time. We were the last all-male class.
    I didn’t pay much attention to goings-on at the school for decades, but about 12 years ago I stopped giving to the annual class fund or making any other contributions. After a reunion, when we got to talk to students, teachers and administrators, and attend classes and other student activities, I realized that co-education had been an outright disaster for the young men at the school. Recently I have started to think about alternatives – it is hopeless to think my old school will change, but are there any all-male high schools left?

  52. @Arclight

    Anyone who has a son and daughter should instantly recognize how differently the two sexes channel their frustration/aggression or deal with conflict. Boys usually are willing to deal with another boy head on, and if not they just ignore the situation. Girls on the other hand love dealing out emotional punishment and ostracism, usually by enlisting a group of girls to target an individual or smaller group.

    My experience thus far has been that girls become very skilled at emotional manipulation much earlier than I had expected. One tactic is to absent themselves from the group but remain in sight while performatively pouting (damseling) and attracting a solution to the problem from others (usually men).

    One thing that should get more attention is the different cultural behaviors adopted and enforced by blacks – since black society in America is essentially a matriarchy – and that of basically everyone else since they are patriarchies on the whole. I think a lot of the black tendency towards blame-shifting and grievance is in large part a function of the hugely outsized role black women play in raising children, as primary breadwinners, and so on compared to black men as intact nuclear families went by the wayside. Even black men in nominally masculine roles like pro sports often have whiny, grievance-based attitudes on an off the court or field, and the impact of being raised primarily by women in this regard has been commented on by a few black media figures in sports as well.

    This is possible, but I think an enormous and rarely mentioned related aspect of black family structure is the serial introduction of non-related adult males into the household. We know generally that the “step parent” is a source of all manners of ills in families and an outsized generator of abuse of all kinds, so you can only imagine what it is like in that demographic.

    Your average underclass black boy has had to deal with the cruel dictatorial rule of several adult men who see the boy at best as an obstacle or useless weight before the boy reaches manhood himself. Navigating this probably requires skills to draw the sympathy of one’s own mother in conflict with the boyfriend, but another aspect is that the black boy is probably acculturated to view all authority figures in the same vein as the mom’s boyfriend archetype – cruel, capricious, violent while alternately absent and neglectful, etc. Someone who has established no moral right to exercise authority, but does so regardless because he is big and strong and you are small and weak. I think this is a contributing factor to the oppositional defiant behavior of blacks, and it is a bad mix when a young black male comes into contact with law enforcement.

    • Replies: @Arclight
  53. Art Deco says:
    @Roger

    More precisely:

    1. Not goal oriented (or, the goal is the comfort and convenience of employees or of some anointed subset of them).

    2. Instead, process oriented.

    3. Given to wheel-spinning, e.g. lifeless formal meetings.

    4. Attempts at manipulating subordinates into doing what you want rather than making a decision.

    5. Decisions made for office-political reasons (again, process).

    6. Reprimands having nothing to do with actual performance.

    I’ve worked for two capable lady bosses. These are the things they avoided doing.

    • Thanks: Unladen Swallow
    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
  54. @Jack D

    I think that might also be a high estimate of how brain size correlates with intelligence. Elsewhere I’ve seen the correlation below .2.

    In any case, there is clearly something to explain with the brain size and gender disjunction in intelligence. Overall, it seems that black male brains are on average a bit larger than white female brains, but there is no dispute that white females are more intelligent than black males. Something about the structure of the female brain makes it more intelligent than size alone would predict.

    • Replies: @Red Pill Angel
  55. Art Deco says:
    @Sick 'n Tired

    Not so much stressful as demoralizing, as there’s always slack and chicken-sh!t.

  56. BB753 says:

    Women hate freedom. That’s why they love marriage.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  57. @Gaius Gracchus

    Most women hate working for women bosses

    This.

  58. @Kylie

    I sometimes pay attention so I can make fun of them.

  59. Old Prude says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    A Wesstern updated to modern times: It includes Indians, gambling, and ladies of the night and all the other elements of a great western. Great dramatic tension and the last scene is wicked awesome.

    • Agree: Dave Pinsen
  60. Old Prude says:
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Here’s my work place icebreaker in the machine shop: “Have anything special planned for Martin. Luther King Day”

    • LOL: Jim Don Bob
  61. Old Prude says:
    @Kylie

    I’ve worked with quite a few very smart and clever women, and a handful who had more {figurative} balls than most of the men around.

    Hell, I married one.

    • Replies: @mc23
  62. @Dave Pinsen

    “Hell or High Water was really good.”

    Yep, real good West Texas story although most of it was shot in New Mexico. No Country for Old Men is the tops for West Texas filmography. The Coens really captured West Texas women in that film: they are notorious for their ornery disposition. The WT women in my family were not fat like the ones in the Coens film; they were tall and skinny, wraith-like. Very scary for a California boy. There’s a reason why West Texas men all carry; and it ain’t the Messcans.

    • Replies: @Peter D. Bredon
  63. @Ghost of Bull Moose

    “feminized liberal men”

    I’m in a business (chocolate covered bananas) that is essentially controlled by homosexual men. I have an easier time dealing with them than the straight passive-aggressive “men” who are also numerous in this racket. It makes me queasy being around them. At least the homos can take a freaking joke.

  64. Yes! Yes! Yes! It’s “the science.”

    Women compete, but indirectly, with comments such as “I can’t believe she said that.”

    As I say, men have a Culture of Insult; women have a Culture of Complaint.

    I could go on…

  65. @Art Deco

    “3. Given to wheel-spinning, e.g. lifeless formal meetings.”

    You are describing government work, so I can only surmise Roddy let you go after Conquest of the Planet of the Apes wrapped, and he went on to do his Columbo guest spot.

    You and I both know the situation with women is going to get worse: once they cut themselves off from their biological imperative and began having puppies instead of babies the Rubicon was crossed. This alteration is especially noticeable amongst young white women who have devoted their lives to corporate power. Women tend to get untethered once they age and their precious bodily fluids dry up. Think how bat-shit crazy these young ones will get, who never used their fluids as nature intended, when they reach their mid-40s. I can only hope Dr. Fauci is funding gain-of-function research for a virus that targets dogs.

  66. @Kylie

    I wonder why men pay as much attention to women’s ideas as they do. I get that getting laid is of prime importance to men. But actually paying attention to women’s ideas seems an awfully high price to pay for that.

    It would be easier for me to pay attention to women’s ideas if more women actually had some. Many women are perfectly nice but don’t seem to have thought about anything ever, and have nothing to say for themselves. The pretty ones are even worse because they learned at a young age that they can go far on their looks alone.

    But then I don’t find most men very interesting either. I keep up with sports enough to be able to participate in male conversations just to be sociable. Most of the people I know talk about politics and covid. I agree with most of what they say but I am sick to death of hearing about both subjects.
    /rant

    • Replies: @Kylie
  67. fish says:
    @Jack D

    But this does not explain why a 12% to 16% difference in brain size only leads to a small difference in IQ.

    Heat rejection.

  68. Whiskey says: • Website

    So, more evidence as if any was needed that women are the eternal and natural enemy of the beta male.

  69. SFG says:
    @Jack D

    I read somewhere a lot of the extra brain tissue in men is white matter, which helps cushion the neurons (presumably if you get hit in the head while fighting).

  70. Alrenous says: • Website

    Any significant pressure to feminize men or to masculinize women requires freedom to have already disappeared.

    Scholars, meaning writers of all kinds in this case, love to say counter-intuitive things to signal how very not-prole they are. Unfortunately, a lot of these counter-intuitive things are plain false, and the clever arguments show off how clever the scholar is, but are otherwise substanceless.

    Turns out men should be masculine and women should be feminine. You would think nobody would have to say this, but here we are.

    [MORE]

    By the way, conforming to the dominant ideology is a woman thing. Women have flipped from right to left because America has flipped from appearing (somewhat, relatively) rightish to openly looking leftist. Likewise if you look at Catholic centuries you’ll see that, outside a few fanatical outliers, women are more Catholic than men in those times and places.

    Yes, women do prefer less responsible and thus less direct forms of competition, but the conformity to what “everyone” is doing dominates their personal preferences, due to risk aversion. Risk – this may go without saying – is more responsible, and consequently women hate it.

    All forms of Fascism are characterized by monogendering society. Egalitarianism demands that either everyone be a man or everyone be a woman, because otherwise you’ll notice some men are more masculine than others and some women are more feminine than others, which is heresy against egalitarianism.

    In America, anyone deliberately acting unfeminine is accused of “toxic masculinity.” Of course, the most feminine women aren’t allowed to act too feminine in public either, though if there’s a special epithet for them I don’t know what it is. Something something putting feminism back 100 years? This serves two purposes: first, sufficiently feminine women would make a mockery of men’s attempt to be feminine. It would be too farcical for anyone to take seriously. Second, as above, it helps conceal the fact that some women aren’t capable of being sufficiently feminine, the noticing of which is heresy.

    Democracy, like all forms of Fascism, has a curious internal tension: inspiring envy is supposed to be the highest sin, and yet if envy stopped being commonly inspired, the engine would fail to turn over and the whole society would seize solid. Envy is what makes it go.
    E.g. they’re constantly shoving racial differences in your face to gas the envy engine. E.g. allegedly egalitarianism is the religion of the land, and yet they still publicly rank everyone by IQ at school, so you know exactly who you’re supposed to envy and who you’re supposed to hold in contempt.

  71. Alrenous says: • Website

    Any significant pressure to feminize men or to masculinize women requires freedom to have already disappeared.

    Scholars, meaning writers of all kinds in this case, love to say counter-intuitive things to signal how very not-prole they are. Unfortunately, a lot of these counter-intuitive things are plain false, and the clever arguments show off how clever the scholar is, but are otherwise substanceless.

    Turns out men should be masculine and women should be feminine. You would think nobody would have to say this, but here we are.

    [MORE]

    By the way, conforming to the dominant ideology is a woman thing. Women have flipped from right to left because America has flipped from appearing (somewhat, relatively) rightish to openly looking leftist. Likewise if you look at Catholic centuries you’ll see that, outside a few fanatical outliers, women are more Catholic than men in those times and places.

    Yes, women do prefer less responsible and thus less direct forms of competition, but the conformity to what “everyone” is doing dominates their personal preferences, due to risk aversion. Risk – this may go without saying – is more responsible, and consequently women hate it.

    All forms of Fascism are characterized by monogendering society. Egalitarianism demands that either everyone be a man or everyone be a woman, because otherwise you’ll notice some men are more masculine than others and some women are more feminine than others, which is heresy against egalitarianism.

    In America, anyone deliberately acting unfeminine is accused of “toxic masculinity.” Of course, the most feminine women aren’t allowed to act too feminine in public either, though if there’s a special epithet for them I don’t know what it is. Something something putting feminism back 100 years? This serves two purposes: first, sufficiently feminine women would make a mockery of men’s attempt to be feminine. It would be too farcical for anyone to take seriously. Second, as above, it helps conceal the fact that some women aren’t capable of being sufficiently feminine, the noticing of which is heresy.

    Democracy, like all forms of Fascism, has a curious internal tension: inspiring envy is supposed to be the highest sin, and yet if envy stopped being commonly inspired, the engine would fail to turn over and the whole society would seize solid. Envy is what makes it go.
    E.g. they’re constantly shoving racial differences in your face to gas the envy engine. E.g. allegedly egalitarianism is the religion of the land, and yet they still publicly rank everyone by IQ at school, so you know exactly who you’re supposed to envy and who you’re supposed to hold in contempt.

    • Replies: @Alrenous
  72. Jack D says:
    @Anon

    If 4 points is huge, then what is 15 points (the average black-white gap)?

    In my experience, 4 points is not huge. If you had two job candidates and one of them had a 111 IQ and the other was a 115, other factors (personality, experience, work ethic), etc. would be more important than the 4 point difference. Especially if the job was one at which females excelled (say receptionist) I would usually take the 111 point female over the 115 point male. Her people skills are going to outweigh any small intellectual HP disadvantage.

    • Replies: @Anon
  73. Ann Coulter Has Some Balls To Go With Her Brains And Beauty

  74. Art Deco says:
    @BB753

    You’re not enslaved when you’re married and women initiate most divorces.

    • Replies: @BB753
  75. This Shapely Broad Tulsi Gabbard Has Some Balls To Go With Her Brains And Beauty

  76. J1234 says:
    @Hangnail Hans

    Good points. The survey isn’t really intended as a survey at all.

    From the article:

    Along parallel lines, a Knight Foundation survey in 2017 of 3,014 college students asked: “If you had to choose, which do you think is more important, a diverse and inclusive society or protecting free speech rights.”

    Male students preferred protecting free speech over an inclusive and diverse society by a decisive 61 to 39. Female students took the opposite position, favoring an inclusive, diverse society over free speech by 64 to 35.

    Majorities of both male and female college students in the Knight survey support the view that the First Amendment should not be used to protect hate speech, but the men were more equivocal, at 56 to 43, than women, at 71 to 29.

    Does anyone else see an element of motherhood (probably subconscious) in there? Moms want all of their kids to get along with each other, and not say mean things to each other. “And be sure to include your little brother in your games.” Parenthood is the only universally accepted form of tyranny in our culture. Why not expand that concept to larger society (women might say)?

  77. @Ed

    prohibitions on women voting or Jim Crow were based on observed behaviors or something that was just assumed to be best at the time without much evidence?

    Jim Crow came on the heels of Reconstruction.

  78. Alrenous says: • Website
    @Alrenous

    (This comment was doubled because I somehow confused the system and it told me it was spam, so I posted it again. It was caused by trying to edit in the MORE tag.)

  79. @Spangel226

    One of the most distinctive tells for masculine/feminine appearance, and the one that trans women cannot fix, is that men have big heads, with big bumps and pointy protrusions, and women smaller, rounder heads. Most people have never noticed this, at least the ones I’ve pointed it out to. It’s like, where is a man’s navel vs. where is a woman’s? But you would notice if it’s wrong. Is it possible that men’s larger brain size is related to physical prowess? Running? Aiming and hitting, but that’s spatial, but what about other aggression-related behaviors? And there’s always sex. Men do think about sex with their brains.

  80. @beavertales

    Hence the development of the knock down dragged out catfight on prime time soaps like Dynasty; Linda Evans vs Joan Collins; even V: The Series had Jane Badler vs June Chadwick.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
  81. @Mike Tre

    Sounds like the Democrats learned a lot from her.

  82. Call it The Testicle Lockbox Theory.

  83. @SunBakedSuburb

    They were tall and skinny, wraith-like. Very scary for a California boy

    I’m thinking Sissy Spacek?

  84. @Sick 'n Tired

    When women engage in team sports, following the lead of men they have difficulty separating what happens on the field or court and getting along off of it. To men this is second nature, women however find it very difficult.

  85. Anon[233] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    The black-white gap is astronomical and reflected in male life expectancy and incarceration rates.

    4 points is huge, especially if it’s due to lopsided results on different portions of the test. Try getting an educated woman to solve an axis cube. She will be effectively mentally retarded. Ditto for trying to get men to classify parts of speech or to read music. The difference in polarity of specific IQ measurements between men and women is similar to the difference between whites and blacks. Also, black men really are about as intelligent as white women.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  86. mc23 says:
    @Roger

    Men innovated and created to impress and women and take care of their children and also because that’s what men do.

    Sometimes when I hear women making light of some man’s endeavor or even their hobbies I’ll tell them “you do realize if women ran things we’d still be living in grass huts”. It goes over surprisingly well. They even smile. I guess I’ve reached curmudgeon status.

  87. joe862 says:

    I think it was ben franklin that said “there are but 3 guarantees in life, death, taxes, and chicks fighting.” I don’t think men are interested in joining girls’ clubs and so many organizations are becoming female dominated. And those cartoonishly assertive broads hate each other and squabble a lot. What sane man wants any part of that? There’s a big imbalance between the desire of men to join high status women and the desire of women to join high status men.

  88. Thea says:
    @Bragadocious

    Something very similar happened to the now defunct Zendik farm community. Wolf Zendik started it as an arts commune. After he died his wife (who jealously endured years of him bedding young hippy girls that showed up) and daughter took over and ran it into the ground.

  89. mc23 says:
    @Old Prude

    As individuals it’s a coin flip, go figure.

    To Paraphrase an English writer of Napoleon’s times who said the French were contemptuous as individuals but terrifying as a mass, I think I would say women are impressive as individuals but terrifying as a mass.

    Is the future a matriarchy? Not improbable at all.

    A civilization if they can keep it.

    • Agree: Kylie
  90. joe862 says:
    @Red Pill Angel

    humor is the difference. Men do it primarily for fun and to get a laugh.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Thanks: Red Pill Angel
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  91. @SafeNow

    I would guess that the majority of psychology experiments and surveys are conducted using college students as their subjects. This technique of being lazy and cheap and then extrapolating the result to a broad population usually seems questionable to me, and I think it is especially dubious in this situation.

    No need to guess: this WEIRD phenomenon has been a known known for a couple of decades, and is the primary hypothesis for why a lot of social-pseudoscience (sociology and psych[]) research doesn’t generalise. (The linked article is from Slate in 2013)

    WEIRD: Western Educated, Industrialised, Rich, Democratic.

    The people who invented the acronym were being slightly cucked:

    It’s pernicious and the effects are huge: it results in samples that are not random, and so statistical properties do not generalise to the population as a whole.

    Every time you see sociology/psych research that purports to say something about human attitudes, always assume that the sample was of a few dozen 20-something undergraduate liberal arts students (or 20-something psych grad students, which is slightly worse).

    To quote the Slate article:

    So the next time you see a study telling you that semen is an effective antidepressant, or that men are funnier than women, or whether penis size really matters, take a closer look. Is that study WEIRDly made up of college psychology students?

    • Replies: @James J O'Meara
  92. @Sick of Orcs

    The Roman Empire barred women from voting or holding public office and only lasted 1000 years without Grrl Power.

    And died from diversity.

    Women are just trying to protect the Holy Welfare State that men built for them, without their help. Had they left welfare provisions where they belong, the Church, which is more male than the state can ever be, much of this wouldn’t have happened.

    • Thanks: Sick of Orcs
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  93. @Anon

    The in-your-face aspect of it was totally male. Women are sneakier.

    A lot of the extreme behavior by homos– promiscuity, muscle worship, suicide, etc– is just men being men. Albeit in a way that turns other men’s stomachs.

    Also, what woman would have thought to have looked for the appropriate domain suffix, .cx, in an antipodal territory of fewer than two thousand? Though interestingly, a woman, Orin Heidelberg, was instrumental in its viral spread. That part does sound womanly, in a twisted way.

  94. @Mike Tre

    Let’s not forget the original nutty religious commune: Christianity. Read the first few chapters of Acts and you’ll see or be reminded that the original cult, about 500 strong after Pentecost, lived together, “sharing all things in common.” Folks had to sell everything they owned (as Jesus told the rich young man) and give it to the group (as Jesus didn’t tell him).

    Fun fact: a married couple tried to keep back some of their realized funds, and when presenting the rest to Peter, he killed them. That’s right, that was the penalty for holding back any funds: St. Peter would kill you. Interesting that Jesus never killed anyone with his magical powers, but the apostles do on several occasions.

    As NT scholar Robert Price pointed out on a podcast, the Jerusalem cult soon “ran out of money, like every socialist scheme does.” Price speculates that this was the reason that Paul, whom they had considered “the father of all heretics” (Tertullian) was allowed to team up with them: his no-Torah gospel was a hit among gentiles, and he was raising money hand over fist; he was allowed to join up if he transferred some of that wealth to the cult (see the Romans epistle about his “fundraising tour”)

    Anyway, the relevance here is the Price also speculates that some of Jesus’ stricter commands originated in the kind of rules a commune would have. For example, if you say to your fellow brother “You fool,” they would hold a big meeting and you would be condemned to Hell. Seems kinda overly strict. in general, but perhaps relevant to a small, close-living cult. Don’t we see here the origins of HR, “hate speech,” etc.? And the whole shift away from manly debate into today’s feminized academia/workplace.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
  95. @Kratoklastes

    This has been know, or speculated about, for decades.

  96. @Gaius Gracchus

    If your wife is undergoing a crisis on account of having a female boss, can you empathize that a female boss can be trouble? Even when she tells you that the prior male boss would never undermine the people working for him as the new boss does?

    Or do you just shut up because feminism?

  97. @SunBakedSuburb

    Gay men in the chocolate-covered banana industry?

    Is that a metaphor for something, or as a famous psychologist once said, sometimes a chocolate-covered banana is just a chocolate-covered banana?

  98. @Patrick in SC

    This is one reason I am not 100% unhappy with the Tranny invasion of women’s sports. First women demanded a ‘separate but equal’ solution to female sports and then use title IX to make sure they got 50% of the money and positions in an area were they were very unequal. Like all of women’s issues, they used to be important to me 20,30,40 years ago but now they are # 113 on the list.

  99. “Feminist theory assumes the opposite…”

    Is there anything of value in feminist Theory? I mean it’s obvious the entire effort is to punch a gap between men and women wider and more sour then the one extant. Surely that will set off the Glorious people’s revolution of blah blah slop blah. But is there anything that isn’t counter-intuitively ass backwards? Just stupid?

    It has escaped savagery so far by concocting the ridiculous proposition that cuddle white women are horribly oppressed – and so deserve their whininess. I’m not sure that’s accurate. I’m not sure that’s accurate, at all.

  100. Anonymous[329] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    But this does not explain why a 12% to 16% difference in brain size only leads to a small difference in IQ.

    Apparently it’s because the tests are designed to even out sex differences in IQ. The true difference may be higher.

    The relatively equal outcomes by sex on most intelligence tests are in part a relic of test design. As one researcher put it: “from the very beginning test developers of the best-known intelligence scales took great care to counterbalance or eliminate from their final scale any items or sub-tests which empirically were found to result in a higher score for one sex over the other.” For example, Wechsler tests deemphasize spatial-relations tasks because they show a male advantage. Therefore, Prof. Lynn’s final estimate of a four-IQ-point difference between adult men and women — which is the average of results from Wechsler, Raven’s Progressive Matrices, and several other tests — may be low…

    A 2019 meta-analysis found male advantages of 0.23 d in visualization, 0.48 d in spatial perception, and 0.66 d in “mental rotation,” meaning the ability to visualize how an object will look when rotated so as to be seen from another angle. This last figure is the largest sex difference of any kind that has been identified, and Wechsler tests are designed to exclude it entirely. In spatial ability overall, men have an advantage of .46 d, equivalent to around seven IQ points.

  101. @Spangel226

    Perhaps women, somewhat like the stegosaurus, have an auxiliary brain in their tail

  102. Mainstream journalism largely takes place in an office setting, with women taking a far more central role than in the past. And I think you can see the results.

  103. Mike Tre says:
    @James J O'Meara

    • Whataboutism: James J O’Meara

    • Replies: @James J O'Meara
  104. Anonymous[145] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Ditto for trying to get men to classify parts of speech or to read music.

    Men have a hard time classifying parts of speech and reading music?

  105. Anonymous[145] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    The Roman Empire barred women from voting or holding public office and only lasted 1000 years without Grrl Power.

    And died from diversity.

    Citation needed.

  106. @Mike Tre

    ignoratio elenchi
    : a fallacy in logic of supposing a point proved or disproved by proving or disproving something not at issue; see also Mike Tre

  107. @SunBakedSuburb

    “There’s money in the banana stand.” — George Bluth

  108. Kylie says:
    @Jim Don Bob

    “It would be easier for me to pay attention to women’s ideas if more women actually had some. Many women are perfectly nice but don’t seem to have thought about anything ever, and have nothing to say for themselves.”

    But that doesn’t stop them talking as if they do, does it?

    “But then I don’t find most men very interesting either. I keep up with sports enough to be able to participate in male conversations just to be sociable. Most of the people I know talk about politics and covid.”

    How awful for you. I make no bones about not liking sports so I’m spared that. I like talking to men who have interesting jobs. I learn a lot that way. Of course my need for human contact is minimal. So the occasional brief chat is sufficient for me.

  109. @joe862

    Agree. We had a colleague from a part of the country known (if only by myth) for incest and inbreeding, and he was duly ripped because of where he came from. Everyone got ripped for something in our all male team.

    Then a black guy joined, from a part of the country noted for anti-police rioting and looting. Nice guy too, but we all knew better than to do the stuff we’d naturally have done with a white guy from exactly the same area.

  110. @Anonymous

    “Citation needed”

    https://www.animatedmaps.div.ed.ac.uk/Divinity6web/movements.html

    In 376, the Goths, long-standing traders with and mercenaries for the Roman Empire, who were settled in large numbers on the north bank of the Danube, came under aggressive attack from the Huns. Their leader came to an agreement with the Emperor Valens that they would be given lands and allowed to settle on the Mediterranean side of the Danube; however, there was a famine, the emperor reneged on his promise and the Goths attacked, killing the emperor at the Battle of Adrianople in 378 and decimating the Roman field army. The Goths were inside the empire to stay, soon becoming known as the Visigoths (originally a tribal name, which became identified as meaning ‘Western Goths’)… Eventually they sacked Rome under Alaric in 410 (the incident that led Augustine to write his City of God).

    https://www.britannica.com/place/ancient-Rome/The-barbarian-invasions

    Parallels all over the place here.

    The political destabilization fed on itself, but it also was responsible for heavy expenditure of life and treasure. To keep pace with the latter, successive emperors rapidly and radically reduced the percentage of precious metal in the standard silver coins to almost nothing so as to spread it over larger issues. What thus became a fiduciary currency held up not too badly until the 260s, when confidence collapsed and people rushed to turn the money they had into goods of real value. An incredible inflation got under way…

    continuing the tendencies detectable even in the 1st century, the army was increasingly recruited from the most backward areas, above all, from the Danubian provinces. Here, too—indeed, throughout the whole northern glacis of the empire—it had been state policy to allow entire tribes of barbarians to immigrate and to settle on vacant lands, where they dwelled, farmed, paid taxes, and offered their sons to the army. Such immigrants, in increasingly large numbers from the reign of Marcus Aurelius on, produced, with the rural population, a very non-Romanized mix

    Taking up Trajan’s dream, Julian wished to defeat Persia definitively by engaging the empire’s forces in an offensive war that would facilitate a national reconciliation around the gods of paganism. But his army was weak—corrupted perhaps by large numbers of hostile Christians.

    I do wonder if a mix of new people AND new state-sponsored religion wasn’t the double whammy.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  111. @Anonymous

    https://www.history.com/news/8-reasons-why-rome-fell

    It would be cancel-worthy to mention diversity is death, but several of these factors are equivalent.

  112. @Anonymous

    And died from diversity.

    Citation needed.

    Tenney Frank. He compared the names on inscriptions in the Republic with those in the Late Empire and found that the latter had become impossibly diverse, reflecting the far reaches of the Empire. It had diluted itself.

    We see a similar process in a much narrower time window in New Sweden and New Netherland. The nominal imperialists were minorities in their own colonies. It could not hold.

  113. Arclight says:
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Good observations. I think the upshot is that society has long tolerated a high level of social dysfunction that has had horrific results and steadfastly refuses to acknowledge it, much less openly promote a change in values and behavior that would benefit everyone.

  114. BB753 says:
    @Art Deco

    “You’re not enslaved when you’re married”

    Keep telling yourself that!

  115. nebulafox says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    The Eastern Empire Christianized earlier and deeper than the West did, and they recovered to the extent that they made an attempt to retake the West in the 6th Century. So I don’t think Christianity was a factor in the fall of the Western empire.

    Bluechecks attempting to explain the fall of the West without unchecked, unassimilated barbarian migration is an interesting exercise in mental gymnastics, to say the least.

    >Here, too—indeed, throughout the whole northern glacis of the empire—it had been state policy to allow entire tribes of barbarians to immigrate and to settle on vacant lands, where they dwelled, farmed, paid taxes, and offered their sons to the army. Such immigrants, in increasingly large numbers from the reign of Marcus Aurelius on, produced, with the rural population, a very non-Romanized mix

    Rome suffered from a devastating pandemic under Marcus Aurelius and desperately needed the new manpower. In any case, this was multiple centuries earlier: the descendants of these people were thoroughly Romanized by the 5th Century.

    >Taking up Trajan’s dream, Julian wished to defeat Persia definitively by engaging the empire’s forces in an offensive war that would facilitate a national reconciliation around the gods of paganism. But his army was weak—corrupted perhaps by large numbers of hostile Christians.

    Julian’s foolhardy decision to invade Persia would cost the empire deeply. Adrianople wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t. I don’t think it’s fair to blame Adrianople primarily on Julian, of course, there were plenty of ways to prevent the catastrophe after his death. But the reason the crisis that led to the battle broke out in the first place was Valens being bogged down in the east trying to undo the damage it caused.

  116. Brutusale says:
    @Peter D. Bredon

    I only recently read that Kate Mulgrew so resented Jeri Ryan that she made Ryan’s life miserable on the set of Star Trek: Voyager.

    Ryan is the sort that ALL women resent!

    At least Mulgrew owns it.

    https://www.womansworld.com/posts/entertainment/kate-mulgrew-owns-up-to-her-star-trek-drama-with-jeri-ryan-151889

  117. anon[181] • Disclaimer says:

    We’re seeing two sets of forces that can pull in opposite directions. One set comprises the common interests of men on the one hand and women on the other. Men tend to be more obsessed with status and dominance and are more willing to take risks to compete for them; women are more likely to prize health and safety and to reduce conflict. …

    Ironically, the desire of women to reduce conflict by censoring those who question the value of unlimited diversity and inclusion will result in more conflict. The Diversitopia that women are protecting from skeptics will, in the long run, increase the rancor that women want to avoid.

  118. MeneMene says:
    @Red Pill Angel

    Snide is an attitude. Ribbing is usually straightforward without that whiny, mean component.

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